The Megyn Kelly Show - Crime Friday： New Murdaugh Trial Potential, Adult Dwarf or Child Case, and Gypsy Rose's Boyfriend, with Mark Geragos and Jonna Spilbor

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00:00:30.680 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.580 Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.080 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.780 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.220 It's a Kelly's Court Friday today

00:00:46.760 and I am so excited to bring you some great analysis

00:00:49.740 of some unbelievably interesting cases.

00:00:52.640 I've been dying to talk about these cases.

00:00:55.280 And today we've got time to go in depth on all of them.

00:00:58.520 They're equally great.

00:01:00.980 On the docket today, updates in the Gypsy Rose story,

00:01:04.900 the Alec Murdoch case,

00:01:06.520 and we have got to get to the one topic

00:01:09.080 that we have not talked about on this show.

00:01:11.180 Have you heard the story about Natalia Grace?

00:01:16.900 OMG.

00:01:18.180 Okay, we're going to get into it today.

00:01:19.960 It's insane.

00:01:21.060 Mark Garagos is a famed defense attorney

00:01:25.860 and managing partner of Garagos and Garagos.

00:01:28.220 And Janice Bilboer is a defense attorney

00:01:30.420 and founder of Janice Bilboer Law.

00:01:32.920 Guys, we have so much to talk about.

00:01:35.360 Thank you so much for being here.

00:01:37.620 These are like the juiciest cases ever.

00:01:40.240 I don't even know where to begin,

00:01:42.040 but I'm going to start with the one that's the newsiest.

00:01:45.120 And that's what's happening with the Alec Murdoch

00:01:48.700 attempt to get a new trial this week.

00:01:52.180 Well, I mean, in general,

00:01:54.140 but the proceedings have been underway this week

00:01:56.600 to see what will be the standards

00:01:58.460 at this three-day hearing at the end of January.

00:02:01.280 There's a new judge in town.

00:02:02.720 The guy who oversaw the case has kicked it to this,

00:02:05.800 now retired, but still she comes in

00:02:07.800 for the occasional big legal battle.

00:02:10.760 Judge Toll, I'm told she's 80 years old,

00:02:13.160 and she's supposedly a total badass.

00:02:16.180 Like she runs a very strict courthouse, courtroom.

00:02:20.520 Lawyers are afraid of her.

00:02:21.560 She's apparently still very sharp.

00:02:23.600 And she's the one who's going to decide

00:02:25.020 whether he gets a new trial.

00:02:27.060 And as far as I can tell,

00:02:30.060 you know, you tell me, Mark,

00:02:31.360 it looks like things could not have gone worse

00:02:34.400 for Alec Murdoch than they did this week

00:02:37.920 at this hearing at which the judge is deciding things

00:02:40.240 like what will be the standard for determining

00:02:43.320 whether he gets a new trial

00:02:44.780 and what kind of evidence will I let in

00:02:47.660 when we have this three-day hearing

00:02:49.760 that's going to include several jurors,

00:02:53.100 that's going to include court clerk Becky Hill,

00:02:56.960 who's been accused of jury tampering,

00:02:59.140 that's why this whole thing is happening,

00:03:00.400 and who has been accused of being an all-around

00:03:03.080 like serial criminal

00:03:04.500 and not a trustworthy person

00:03:07.280 who should have been within 12 feet of the jurors,

00:03:09.800 all of which the defense is alleging.

00:03:11.480 So am I right?

00:03:13.020 It was a very bad week for the defendant

00:03:15.560 and his quest for a new trial.

00:03:17.180 Well, yes, it was a bad week

00:03:18.920 based on what they had hoped for.

00:03:21.080 They had hoped for kind of a full-blown hearing

00:03:23.940 where you were going to be able to get in

00:03:25.620 and cross-examine it to your heart's content.

00:03:30.240 They're now very limited.

00:03:31.920 It will be at least partially public

00:03:36.320 in the sense that her honor has ruled

00:03:40.780 that you won't be able to seek the identity of the jurors,

00:03:46.280 and it will not be done in chambers, apparently.

00:03:49.840 But other than that,

00:03:51.320 the kind of strict ground rules of this

00:03:53.460 have already hamstrung the defense.

00:03:56.300 I would imagine that they're not pleased.

00:03:58.900 I have not talked to Jim or Dick about it,

00:04:02.300 but I'm going to channel

00:04:03.720 that they probably are a little bit crestfallen

00:04:07.080 that after all of this,

00:04:08.980 that they're at a point

00:04:10.180 where it's somewhat anticlimactic.

00:04:13.960 The most devastating ruling, John,

00:04:16.240 is on the legal standard

00:04:17.520 that's going to be applied

00:04:18.640 in determining whether Murdoch gets a new trial.

00:04:21.560 There was a question about whether she would rule.

00:04:23.560 You've got to prove

00:04:24.280 not only that this Becky Hill

00:04:25.540 interfered with the jury,

00:04:26.620 that she tampered with the jury,

00:04:27.880 as one juror alleges she came to them

00:04:30.260 and said, watch his body language,

00:04:32.420 something like don't trust him.

00:04:34.300 You know, that would definitely be jury tampering.

00:04:36.020 And the defense wants to argue

00:04:37.500 that's the legal standard,

00:04:38.720 just tampering.

00:04:39.700 That's enough for a new trial.

00:04:41.440 The prosecution wanted to argue

00:04:43.060 that's not the legal standard.

00:04:45.140 It's tampering,

00:04:47.060 plus it affected the verdict.

00:04:49.600 It affected the verdict.

00:04:50.640 And she seems to have held tampering is enough.

00:04:55.400 I mean, tampering is not enough.

00:04:56.840 You have to prove that the verdict was affected.

00:04:58.980 And that's very bad for the defense.

00:05:02.640 I don't know that this juror is going to testify

00:05:05.400 that it affected the verdict,

00:05:06.780 as opposed to,

00:05:08.640 yeah, she said some inappropriate things to me.

00:05:11.260 Well, and you know,

00:05:11.920 part of the problem is,

00:05:13.340 is that you're on very kind of treacherous ground,

00:05:17.500 because normally you can't talk about juror deliberation

00:05:22.040 and what went into their thought processes.

00:05:24.660 Virtually every jurisdiction,

00:05:26.900 federal and state has a prohibition of that.

00:05:29.380 That's kind of a no man's land in terms of going to.

00:05:32.700 So here, while you want to talk about,

00:05:35.640 obviously the tampering and what was said,

00:05:38.740 you're almost kind of walled off

00:05:40.960 from getting into how that affected

00:05:43.200 the deliberations themselves.

00:05:45.520 So it'll be interesting to see how that-

00:05:47.480 That's what she said.

00:05:48.240 The judge said that.

00:05:49.260 So, Jonna, I want to get your take

00:05:51.080 on this legal standard ruling,

00:05:52.940 because it doesn't sound like it went

00:05:53.980 the way the defense wanted.

00:05:55.540 But that's another thing the judge said.

00:05:57.060 She said, we will not be asking,

00:06:00.540 we will ask the jurors

00:06:01.880 about whether it affected your final decision,

00:06:05.900 but it doesn't seem like she's going to make that

00:06:07.780 the determining factor

00:06:09.440 on whether he gets a new trial.

00:06:10.520 But she does want to know

00:06:11.320 whether it did affect the conclusion.

00:06:12.880 But she said, we will not be talking

00:06:14.380 about how they reached their decision.

00:06:15.720 Nobody gets to ask jurors about that.

00:06:17.900 But your thoughts on how this is going for him?

00:06:20.180 It's so completely unfair.

00:06:21.760 I mean, yesterday, I figured they were already dead

00:06:24.240 in the water because I was listening to it

00:06:26.200 on Sirius, actually.

00:06:28.340 And she could not have been more,

00:06:31.860 for lack of a better term, anti-Murdoch

00:06:34.440 than she was in each and every one of her rulings.

00:06:37.660 Why wouldn't it be enough, Megan,

00:06:39.780 to simply prove that there was tampering?

00:06:41.880 And that should be, you know, the end of the story.

00:06:44.240 Because if there were tampering,

00:06:46.140 you can't apply a harmless error rule,

00:06:49.600 so to speak, to something like that,

00:06:52.080 especially when the jury tampering

00:06:53.580 comes from inside the courtroom.

00:06:57.240 I mean, my philosophy would be, let it all in.

00:07:00.620 Let it all in.

00:07:01.960 And then whichever way the judge wants to rule,

00:07:04.260 she's going to rule.

00:07:05.080 But why limit what is going to be admitted

00:07:08.140 into evidence on something as serious as this,

00:07:11.320 instead of giving them, you know, a wide breath.

00:07:14.280 And then the judge can decide

00:07:15.620 what is relevant or not for this purpose.

00:07:18.500 I think, you know, look, nobody loves Alec Murdoch,

00:07:21.660 but this really seems to be an unfair ruling.

00:07:24.520 We're talking about a man's freedom here.

00:07:25.880 So like the standards should be pretty exacting,

00:07:28.180 but it shouldn't be impossible.

00:07:30.220 And I mean, in this case,

00:07:31.320 I've never seen such good evidence

00:07:33.200 of jury tampering as they have here.

00:07:35.620 An actual juror has come forward to say,

00:07:37.720 I'm telling you this happened to me.

00:07:40.080 And you look at the clerk who says,

00:07:42.280 your honor, it's all lies.

00:07:44.100 But the clerk does not appear to be a truthful person, Mark.

00:07:49.580 And the judge is also going to limit

00:07:52.060 all the bad facts about what Becky Hill

00:07:55.400 has been doing over the past month,

00:07:57.100 according to what I read.

00:07:58.240 And the evidence against Becky Hill is terrible.

00:08:01.720 We've talked about it on the show before.

00:08:03.320 She allegedly plagiarized the book.

00:08:04.980 She allegedly worked with her son,

00:08:06.160 who was a courthouse employee,

00:08:07.280 to spy on the people who were investigating her

00:08:09.980 and whether she'd done bad things.

00:08:11.720 She allegedly sold access to the courthouse.

00:08:13.680 She allegedly let somebody in

00:08:14.940 with closed circuit TV video of Alec Murdoch

00:08:18.420 before he heard the verdict,

00:08:19.980 who wasn't supposed to see it.

00:08:20.980 I could keep going.

00:08:22.220 This judge has basically said,

00:08:24.240 you're not getting any of it in.

00:08:25.580 And by the way,

00:08:27.100 the one that just infuriates me,

00:08:29.880 because I've been there before,

00:08:31.580 is they disqualified one of the jurors

00:08:34.640 based on something which now turns out

00:08:37.360 something she had told the judge.

00:08:39.880 Apparently, they make a credible argument

00:08:41.940 that that had just been ginned up as well.

00:08:45.240 I mean, talk about tantrum.

00:08:46.500 You're talking about the egg lady?

00:08:47.860 Yeah.

00:08:49.060 Yeah.

00:08:50.320 Okay, so that's important.

00:08:51.740 So during the trial,

00:08:52.760 there was a juror who got booted

00:08:54.220 on the day they began the deliberations, right?

00:08:57.340 The day they began the deliberations,

00:08:58.640 I think it was,

00:08:59.120 or it might have been verdict day.

00:09:00.580 Either way,

00:09:02.520 she had made it the whole time.

00:09:04.180 And she got booted because Becky Hill,

00:09:06.300 this problematic court clerk,

00:09:08.000 had apparently told the judge,

00:09:09.960 that juror who brought in the eggs,

00:09:12.220 she's up to no good.

00:09:13.500 She may have been talking about the case

00:09:14.920 outside of the courthouse.

00:09:16.800 And one thing led to another,

00:09:17.640 and the juror did indeed get booted

00:09:19.780 originally because of what Becky Hill said.

00:09:25.020 Yeah, exactly.

00:09:26.380 And there was some,

00:09:27.120 you know,

00:09:27.380 Becky Hill also,

00:09:28.920 either she made up

00:09:30.860 or fabricated some sort of Facebook post

00:09:33.400 that implicated this juror

00:09:34.840 and it was talking out of school,

00:09:36.340 so to speak.

00:09:36.920 And that's why the juror got booted off.

00:09:38.400 But she didn't leave without her eggs.

00:09:40.400 So good for her.

00:09:41.960 But apparently,

00:09:43.100 the defense camp wanted to bring her in

00:09:45.800 also on this motion.

00:09:47.320 And I believe the judge said,

00:09:49.320 no,

00:09:49.720 egg lady can't come in,

00:09:51.100 which again,

00:09:52.660 why the hell not?

00:09:54.260 I mean,

00:09:54.580 she was there.

00:09:55.620 She was a victim of Becky Hill,

00:09:57.380 so to speak.

00:09:57.980 Why wouldn't you want to hear from her?

00:10:00.020 Because the allegation was that

00:10:01.860 this was a pro-defense juror

00:10:03.920 and that Becky Hill could tell.

00:10:05.320 And the court clerk spends a lot of time

00:10:06.840 with the jurors,

00:10:07.560 so it's possible Becky Hill

00:10:09.040 knew what she was talking about.

00:10:10.600 So this was a pro-defense,

00:10:12.160 pro-Alec Murdoch juror,

00:10:13.860 and suddenly she gets booted

00:10:15.500 because Becky Hill,

00:10:17.120 who again is accused of telling the jury,

00:10:19.100 don't believe him,

00:10:19.880 don't believe him when you watch him,

00:10:21.700 and was writing a book about the case

00:10:23.760 and had a financial interest,

00:10:25.420 reportedly said to somebody,

00:10:26.920 my book will do better

00:10:27.740 if they come up with a guilty verdict,

00:10:31.260 that Becky Hill saw this juror

00:10:33.320 and went to the judge and said,

00:10:34.820 oh,

00:10:35.260 I think she was talking about the case

00:10:36.620 outside of the courthouse.

00:10:37.440 I saw a Facebook post

00:10:38.820 or something like that,

00:10:40.380 and she's accused of falsifying

00:10:42.740 the Facebook post,

00:10:43.760 Becky Hill.

00:10:44.360 So, I mean,

00:10:45.740 why wouldn't, Mark,

00:10:47.640 a judge allow,

00:10:49.060 I realize I don't want to turn

00:10:50.080 into a circus,

00:10:51.020 but if Becky Hill is a serial liar,

00:10:54.280 why would that not be relevant

00:10:55.740 given that the whole juror thing

00:10:57.360 is that he said,

00:10:58.080 she said at this point?

00:10:59.700 Well, you know,

00:11:00.500 there's a couple of kind of things,

00:11:03.780 I suppose,

00:11:04.620 that you can attribute this to.

00:11:06.220 Number one,

00:11:07.780 and this goes to what you had just said,

00:11:10.280 it's not like he's going free

00:11:12.620 if they find out that,

00:11:15.020 in fact,

00:11:16.900 the jury was tampered with.

00:11:18.240 He's got a federal sentence there

00:11:20.120 that he's going to serve

00:11:21.160 that's basically for the rest

00:11:22.500 of his natural life.

00:11:23.980 Against that backdrop,

00:11:25.320 you would think that would give them

00:11:26.620 some cushion to do the right thing,

00:11:28.640 but it sure seems like

00:11:30.060 that you get a different form of justice

00:11:32.760 because this was a lawyer

00:11:34.660 and it was the justice system

00:11:36.940 and it goes to the heart

00:11:38.840 of the integrity

00:11:39.620 of the justice system

00:11:40.820 and you don't want to show

00:11:41.760 that it's been corrupted

00:11:42.880 to its core

00:11:43.760 because that is,

00:11:45.320 to some degree,

00:11:46.540 when you recite

00:11:47.740 what you just did,

00:11:48.820 Megan,

00:11:49.140 how do you come away

00:11:50.480 from this with anything

00:11:52.360 but just discuss

00:11:53.400 that here you've got

00:11:54.940 an entire case?

00:11:56.160 And mind you,

00:11:56.740 I talked to Jim Griffin

00:11:58.900 and Dick Harpootlian

00:12:00.220 the night before they put

00:12:01.740 Murda on the stand

00:12:04.400 and they were,

00:12:05.840 you know,

00:12:06.620 they were betwixt and between

00:12:08.280 as to whether or not

00:12:09.320 they were going to do it.

00:12:10.500 I guarantee you

00:12:11.420 if they knew

00:12:11.880 that they had a court clerk

00:12:13.280 who was,

00:12:13.820 you know,

00:12:14.720 throwing this into the mix,

00:12:17.380 they never in a million years

00:12:18.660 would have put him on them.

00:12:19.940 It's the hardest decision

00:12:20.900 you can make

00:12:21.580 to have somebody

00:12:23.260 then kind of going

00:12:25.520 even a step farther,

00:12:26.920 not just tainting the jury,

00:12:28.820 but then telling

00:12:30.000 or basically trying

00:12:32.420 to reconstruct the jury

00:12:34.460 by fabricating a post

00:12:36.260 and not allowing that in.

00:12:38.100 When you've got

00:12:38.780 the safety net

00:12:39.620 of he's not going free,

00:12:41.080 just do the right thing.

00:12:42.720 So I don't know.

00:12:43.460 Is it true he's not going free?

00:12:44.720 I thought he got 27 years

00:12:46.360 on this other crime,

00:12:47.700 the financial crimes.

00:12:49.320 I mean, he's what?

00:12:50.040 He's like 50,

00:12:51.100 young 50s.

00:12:51.860 So I don't know.

00:12:54.320 He's not going anywhere.

00:12:56.600 Okay.

00:12:57.380 Either way,

00:12:58.500 the appearance,

00:12:59.140 like I realized

00:12:59.780 the state did a great job

00:13:00.800 in prosecuting this case,

00:13:01.960 John.

00:13:02.240 That was obvious

00:13:03.180 to those of us watching it.

00:13:04.960 Some of us had some nitpicks

00:13:06.280 on how they,

00:13:06.940 you know,

00:13:07.540 did this or did that,

00:13:08.520 but they got a conviction

00:13:09.720 and he was sentenced

00:13:10.620 to jail for life.

00:13:14.260 Still,

00:13:15.080 the appearance of justice,

00:13:17.080 you know,

00:13:17.280 like the people

00:13:18.720 need to have faith

00:13:19.280 in the system.

00:13:19.760 And if you have

00:13:20.160 a court clerk

00:13:20.800 who's doing

00:13:21.500 all those things wrong,

00:13:22.820 yes,

00:13:23.040 she'll face discipline

00:13:23.820 on her own.

00:13:24.860 But if you're actually

00:13:25.620 telling a juror,

00:13:27.720 you know,

00:13:28.220 don't believe him,

00:13:29.860 how,

00:13:30.440 of course,

00:13:30.840 the juror is going

00:13:31.440 to come out

00:13:31.820 and say like,

00:13:32.360 I don't,

00:13:33.080 I don't know

00:13:33.580 if that affected

00:13:34.180 my verdict.

00:13:34.840 You know,

00:13:35.540 I was smart

00:13:36.180 and I,

00:13:36.560 they don't want to say,

00:13:37.620 yeah,

00:13:37.680 I listened to the court clerk.

00:13:38.880 I think it's really

00:13:40.240 unfair to make the defense,

00:13:42.680 like if it's egregious

00:13:43.620 enough interference,

00:13:44.680 shouldn't that be enough?

00:13:46.780 Exactly.

00:13:47.540 It should be any interference,

00:13:49.780 any intentional act

00:13:51.700 that shows any sort of bias

00:13:53.360 on the part of the court clerk

00:13:54.820 should actually be enough

00:13:56.400 because,

00:13:57.100 I mean,

00:13:57.260 look,

00:13:57.720 these jurors are human.

00:13:58.960 We don't know

00:13:59.600 what gets into their head.

00:14:00.820 We don't know exactly

00:14:01.960 how the process was

00:14:03.120 once they determined

00:14:04.020 or subliminally

00:14:05.380 or otherwise

00:14:06.140 that this clerk

00:14:07.020 was basically

00:14:08.700 chastising them

00:14:09.600 to make sure

00:14:10.040 that they didn't vote

00:14:11.100 for a not guilty verdict.

00:14:13.780 But,

00:14:14.840 you know what these,

00:14:15.760 the judges

00:14:16.140 in that courthouse

00:14:16.880 are thinking.

00:14:17.720 This is the slipperiest

00:14:18.900 slope around.

00:14:20.680 If,

00:14:20.900 if it is determined

00:14:21.980 that Becky Hill

00:14:23.020 actually tampered

00:14:24.320 with this jury,

00:14:25.720 you think this was

00:14:26.460 her only trial?

00:14:27.560 You're going to have

00:14:28.140 defense attorneys

00:14:29.220 running,

00:14:30.520 running

00:14:31.000 to that courthouse

00:14:32.280 to,

00:14:32.580 to maybe make

00:14:33.900 similar claims

00:14:34.900 with cases of theirs

00:14:36.360 where their clients

00:14:37.180 got put away

00:14:37.900 for a very long time.

00:14:39.240 I mean,

00:14:39.820 she's,

00:14:40.440 she's been there

00:14:41.400 for a minute.

00:14:42.480 So how many times

00:14:43.560 is this the only

00:14:44.660 jury that she tampered

00:14:46.260 with because this is

00:14:46.980 the only time

00:14:48.000 to write a book?

00:14:49.400 I mean,

00:14:49.940 who the heck knows?

00:14:50.880 So it's,

00:14:51.640 this is why I think

00:14:52.700 the,

00:14:52.960 the,

00:14:53.240 the judges

00:14:53.840 in that courthouse

00:14:54.580 are like,

00:14:55.100 oh,

00:14:55.760 hell no.

00:14:56.900 But,

00:14:57.280 I know,

00:14:57.640 that's not fair.

00:14:58.520 That's,

00:14:58.980 gotta take it.

00:15:00.140 It's not just

00:15:00.700 Alec Murdoch

00:15:01.400 that we're saving here.

00:15:03.160 It's the justice system

00:15:04.720 as you pointed out,

00:15:05.920 past,

00:15:06.380 present,

00:15:06.700 and future

00:15:07.400 in that courthouse

00:15:08.380 and maybe other courthouses.

00:15:09.580 Well,

00:15:10.460 it's not over.

00:15:11.400 The trial,

00:15:12.040 not the trial,

00:15:12.600 but the hearing

00:15:13.240 on whether he should

00:15:14.100 get a new trial

00:15:14.800 is set for January 29th.

00:15:16.360 It's supposed to go

00:15:17.040 for three days.

00:15:17.820 As Mark points out,

00:15:18.920 we're going to have

00:15:19.400 televised proceedings.

00:15:21.400 We're not going to be allowed

00:15:22.080 to see the jurors' faces

00:15:23.100 and they're going to have

00:15:23.760 to go by numbers

00:15:24.480 instead of names.

00:15:25.640 But I'm glad

00:15:26.340 the press will have

00:15:27.020 access to this

00:15:27.880 and we'll see,

00:15:29.180 you know,

00:15:29.420 like she's issued

00:15:30.320 some preliminary rulings.

00:15:31.560 We'll see whether

00:15:31.960 all of that holds,

00:15:32.820 the standard

00:15:33.400 by which she's going

00:15:34.080 to judge this,

00:15:34.780 what she will

00:15:35.280 and will not let in.

00:15:36.480 Maybe there'll be

00:15:36.960 some door opening

00:15:37.980 where she wasn't allowed,

00:15:39.940 she wasn't going to allow

00:15:40.900 all the,

00:15:41.520 Becky plagiarized her book.

00:15:43.480 Becky worked with her son

00:15:44.620 just to tap

00:15:45.420 or wiretap somebody

00:15:46.900 in the federal courthouse

00:15:47.820 or state courthouse

00:15:48.900 and they'll,

00:15:50.220 they'll make a mistake

00:15:50.840 and it'll come in.

00:15:51.800 Okay.

00:15:52.640 We got to move on

00:15:53.580 to Nicholas Rossi.

00:15:56.360 This may be

00:15:57.260 one of my favorite

00:15:58.220 stories of the past year.

00:16:00.880 I was listening

00:16:01.680 to a Dateline.

00:16:02.460 I love the Dateline podcasts,

00:16:04.140 the crime podcast

00:16:05.080 and they'd made reference

00:16:06.380 to this podcast.

00:16:07.540 They had a woman

00:16:08.480 on to talk about the case

00:16:10.180 who had done

00:16:10.920 a podcast herself,

00:16:12.140 a BBC journalist

00:16:12.980 and her podcast was

00:16:13.960 I Am Not Nicholas

00:16:15.200 and it was nine episodes long

00:16:17.120 and it was about this guy

00:16:18.160 who for these purposes

00:16:19.380 I'll just call

00:16:19.880 Nicholas Rossi.

00:16:21.080 Though,

00:16:21.960 that's not really his name.

00:16:23.240 He's got a different name.

00:16:24.440 He's got a lot

00:16:25.040 of different names.

00:16:26.120 I don't know where

00:16:26.680 to begin on the number

00:16:27.480 of names he's got.

00:16:28.520 It's Nicholas Oliverdian

00:16:29.980 but then he changed

00:16:31.020 it to Nicholas Rossi

00:16:32.000 but now he's going

00:16:33.080 by Arthur Knight

00:16:33.980 and he claims he's not

00:16:35.360 either one of those

00:16:36.160 other people

00:16:36.720 and never has been.

00:16:38.580 So this guy

00:16:40.000 grows up

00:16:42.040 in like the foster care system

00:16:43.920 and goes from house

00:16:45.380 to house

00:16:45.800 and winds up sort of

00:16:46.720 making something

00:16:47.440 of his life

00:16:48.180 but had problems

00:16:49.200 as a kid

00:16:49.800 and his,

00:16:50.420 I think it's his now

00:16:51.620 ex-stepfather

00:16:53.840 speaks out about him

00:16:55.200 and says he's evil.

00:16:55.880 Anyway,

00:16:57.580 he gets into

00:16:58.960 like local politics

00:17:00.060 and he starts

00:17:00.800 getting on the stump

00:17:02.200 and people are like,

00:17:03.100 oh wow,

00:17:03.340 this kid's got a real future.

00:17:04.400 He could be like

00:17:04.800 a spokesperson

00:17:05.220 for kids who have been

00:17:06.860 unhoused and so on.

00:17:08.980 Well,

00:17:09.340 he went a different way.

00:17:10.700 One thing led to another.

00:17:11.640 He got in trouble

00:17:12.380 after trouble

00:17:12.980 like minor things

00:17:13.860 and it sort of escalates

00:17:15.280 into alleged sexual assaults.

00:17:18.780 The name changing starts.

00:17:21.060 Yada, yada, yada.

00:17:22.240 You got to listen

00:17:22.780 to the whole podcast.

00:17:24.460 In 2000,

00:17:25.820 I think it was,

00:17:26.760 when is it 2000?

00:17:28.060 Was that too long ago?

00:17:29.480 2020, sorry.

00:17:30.840 2020.

00:17:32.180 He faked his own death.

00:17:35.340 He came out

00:17:36.400 with an article in 2019

00:17:37.300 saying he had

00:17:37.960 stage four

00:17:38.520 non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

00:17:40.600 He told his friends

00:17:41.400 he was dying.

00:17:42.500 An obituary

00:17:43.320 appeared online

00:17:44.120 for him in early 2020

00:17:45.340 saying he had in fact died

00:17:47.760 and his ashes

00:17:49.040 had been scattered at sea.

00:17:50.440 All those people

00:17:51.200 back at like the,

00:17:52.060 in the local politics

00:17:53.360 in the statehouse

00:17:53.900 they were all like

00:17:54.540 giving tributes.

00:17:55.960 It's so sad.

00:17:56.840 He was such a gunner.

00:17:57.740 He had a great career

00:17:58.460 ahead of him in politics.

00:17:59.940 Can't believe he's dead.

00:18:01.380 And in this podcast

00:18:02.300 with this woman,

00:18:02.960 I Am Not Nicholas,

00:18:04.640 they have,

00:18:06.280 there's an interview

00:18:07.160 with a priest

00:18:08.240 that allegedly spoke

00:18:10.340 to his like widow

00:18:12.020 or his whatever

00:18:13.580 who's like he died.

00:18:14.840 I need you to give this

00:18:15.700 beautiful tribute to him.

00:18:18.120 And he was about to do it

00:18:19.600 when the feds contacted him

00:18:21.040 and said,

00:18:21.600 we don't think he's dead.

00:18:23.920 The priest was like,

00:18:25.040 I'm out.

00:18:26.120 Okay.

00:18:26.600 This is just by way

00:18:27.360 of background.

00:18:28.780 So then he,

00:18:31.280 it turns out he moved.

00:18:32.840 These are the allegations.

00:18:34.080 He denies this.

00:18:35.260 It turns out he moved

00:18:36.460 to Scotland.

00:18:38.100 He changed his appearance

00:18:40.000 somewhat.

00:18:41.560 He starts using

00:18:43.120 an oxygen mask

00:18:44.480 to mask his identity.

00:18:46.660 He's in a wheelchair

00:18:48.240 and Dateline catches up with him.

00:18:52.660 Andrea Canning

00:18:53.660 got an interview with him.

00:18:55.700 He's now going by Arthur Knight.

00:18:58.540 Arthur Knight.

00:18:59.500 He says he's Irish,

00:19:01.140 but he's living in Scotland.

00:19:03.000 He's trying to speak

00:19:04.380 in an English accent

00:19:05.840 with an Irish lilt.

00:19:07.840 It's amazing.

00:19:08.560 And she's like,

00:19:11.280 are you Nicholas Rossi?

00:19:13.560 You're Nicholas Rossi,

00:19:14.640 aren't you?

00:19:15.080 And he's pretending,

00:19:16.400 I believe,

00:19:17.040 and these are the allegations,

00:19:17.880 that he's not,

00:19:19.300 that he's this British guy

00:19:20.800 who's like Sir Arthur Knight

00:19:22.700 and in a wheelchair

00:19:24.220 and can't,

00:19:25.080 and has the oxygen

00:19:26.220 and can't move.

00:19:27.700 And there's a clip

00:19:29.200 of him

00:19:30.400 with Andrea Canning

00:19:31.320 that you can't make up.

00:19:32.560 Watch this.

00:19:33.000 We were once

00:19:34.960 a normal family,

00:19:36.540 but thanks to the media,

00:19:38.680 our lives have been interrupted.

00:19:41.400 And we'd like privacy,

00:19:43.200 and I would like to go back

00:19:44.600 to being a normal husband.

00:19:47.440 But I can't,

00:19:48.800 because I can't breathe.

00:19:50.000 I can't walk.

00:19:51.260 People say that's an act.

00:19:52.640 Let me try to stand up.

00:19:54.300 Let me try to stand up.

00:19:56.300 Exactly.

00:19:57.120 Please.

00:19:57.440 Exactly.

00:19:58.280 What do you say

00:19:59.320 to someone who believes

00:20:01.600 that you are

00:20:02.660 Nicholas Aliverdian?

00:20:04.120 I am not Andrea.

00:20:05.920 I am not

00:20:07.300 Nicholas Aliverdian.

00:20:09.780 I do not know

00:20:11.500 how to make this clear.

00:20:13.860 What do you say

00:20:14.340 to people who say

00:20:14.960 these are crocodile tears?

00:20:16.460 He's putting on a show.

00:20:17.800 This is all an act.

00:20:20.040 Oh, Eko.

00:20:21.020 Andrea,

00:20:21.460 that's a low blow.

00:20:23.600 That's a right low blow.

00:20:28.140 Now,

00:20:28.660 I love this story so much.

00:20:32.840 Okay,

00:20:33.100 I'm about to toss it to you guys,

00:20:35.080 but just to put the pin

00:20:36.320 on the end of it,

00:20:37.860 turns out

00:20:38.600 a court in Scotland said,

00:20:41.040 you are

00:20:42.620 Nicholas Rossi

00:20:43.880 or Nicholas Aliverdian.

00:20:45.360 You're going back home

00:20:46.780 to Utah

00:20:47.280 to face

00:20:48.620 sexual assault

00:20:49.860 and rape charges

00:20:50.860 that have been made

00:20:51.560 against you,

00:20:52.120 which appear to have been

00:20:52.940 the reason for the whole

00:20:54.060 identity shift

00:20:55.080 and him fleeing the country

00:20:56.820 in the first place.

00:20:58.020 So he gets sent back

00:21:00.060 this month.

00:21:00.920 He just got back.

00:21:02.180 He's in Utah

00:21:03.260 and he appeared

00:21:05.540 in court

00:21:06.500 on Tuesday

00:21:08.100 in a scene.

00:21:08.920 You just,

00:21:09.380 you're never going to see

00:21:10.140 this again in your life.

00:21:11.300 Here it is.

00:21:12.120 Here's a bit

00:21:12.600 in court.

00:21:14.260 My name is

00:21:15.160 Orson

00:21:15.620 Knight

00:21:16.380 Brain.

00:21:17.700 My date of birth

00:21:18.500 is

00:21:18.720 22nd of

00:21:20.060 the 11th,

00:21:21.480 1986.

00:21:22.760 Tamara Vasquez

00:21:23.400 for the state.

00:21:24.100 This individual

00:21:26.300 has been extradited

00:21:27.460 and he has not

00:21:29.540 admitted his

00:21:30.500 name or

00:21:31.640 birth date

00:21:32.700 accurately

00:21:33.620 and so

00:21:34.180 I don't think

00:21:35.180 we're going to be successful

00:21:36.140 on that today either.

00:21:37.480 Objection,

00:21:38.140 my lady.

00:21:38.840 That is complete

00:21:39.600 fair say

00:21:40.440 and I would

00:21:41.300 ask

00:21:42.080 your ladyship

00:21:43.740 that

00:21:44.640 the prosecution

00:21:45.720 too

00:21:46.160 calls

00:21:46.880 for

00:21:47.460 my lady.

00:21:54.900 Jonna,

00:21:56.020 you tell me

00:21:57.340 what challenges

00:21:58.460 it poses

00:21:59.180 when you're going

00:22:00.120 after a guy

00:22:00.980 who won't even

00:22:01.880 admit

00:22:02.520 he is the

00:22:03.580 defendant

00:22:04.100 who allegedly

00:22:04.980 committed the crime.

00:22:07.080 You know

00:22:07.780 who's going to

00:22:08.200 have the biggest

00:22:08.900 challenge

00:22:09.520 is his

00:22:11.040 lawyer.

00:22:12.420 I mean,

00:22:12.720 holy

00:22:13.060 cat,

00:22:13.400 like,

00:22:13.900 either this guy

00:22:14.680 is unbelievably

00:22:16.040 insane

00:22:16.960 which may or may not

00:22:18.320 be a defense

00:22:18.940 to what he's

00:22:19.440 accused of doing

00:22:20.880 or when you have

00:22:22.100 a client

00:22:22.820 or defendant

00:22:23.680 who won't even

00:22:24.680 who's got 18

00:22:26.080 different personas

00:22:27.060 and you don't know

00:22:27.820 which one you're

00:22:28.680 representing

00:22:29.460 it is a challenge

00:22:31.940 and the sad part

00:22:33.640 of many sad parts

00:22:34.880 but,

00:22:35.560 you know,

00:22:35.780 he's accused

00:22:36.320 of some heinous crimes

00:22:37.920 that he might have

00:22:38.960 had a defense to

00:22:40.180 had he not

00:22:41.180 created this

00:22:42.680 this concoction

00:22:44.340 that he

00:22:45.720 that he was dead

00:22:46.700 like he could have

00:22:47.420 maybe legitimately

00:22:48.300 defended himself

00:22:49.160 but now

00:22:49.780 he's so far out there

00:22:51.360 I don't know

00:22:52.220 if he's even

00:22:52.860 competent to stand trial

00:22:54.280 this is

00:22:54.700 this is absolutely

00:22:55.800 nuts.

00:22:56.840 I feel sorry

00:22:57.360 for his attorney

00:22:58.060 more than I feel

00:22:58.900 sorry for the prosecutor

00:22:59.780 in this case.

00:23:01.180 I love this story.

00:23:02.820 I hate the crimes

00:23:03.980 of which he's accused

00:23:04.840 but I just love

00:23:05.780 how farcical

00:23:07.180 the whole thing

00:23:07.960 is.

00:23:08.520 Mark,

00:23:09.260 he is

00:23:09.940 he won't admit

00:23:11.620 that it's him

00:23:12.320 and even in this

00:23:13.620 documentary

00:23:14.880 or this podcast

00:23:15.940 by this BBC journalist

00:23:17.060 I am not

00:23:17.640 Nicholas

00:23:18.060 she writes about

00:23:19.460 how she went

00:23:20.340 to his house

00:23:20.840 he was in

00:23:21.300 in that interview

00:23:21.960 with Andrea Canning

00:23:22.580 he's sitting next

00:23:23.120 to his wife

00:23:23.520 he found somebody

00:23:24.020 to marry him

00:23:24.640 and that's

00:23:25.920 one of the most

00:23:26.400 shocking things

00:23:26.960 and that

00:23:29.080 this guy

00:23:30.160 Nicholas

00:23:30.740 and his wife

00:23:31.540 invite the BBC

00:23:32.340 journalist over

00:23:32.920 to their house

00:23:33.400 in Scotland

00:23:33.860 and the real

00:23:35.820 Nicholas Rossi

00:23:36.620 or Aliverdian

00:23:37.200 has tattoos

00:23:37.960 all up and down

00:23:38.640 the one arm

00:23:39.180 so she goes in there

00:23:40.640 she knows it

00:23:41.220 she's looking

00:23:41.640 at his arm

00:23:42.180 and it's

00:23:43.520 bare as a baby's

00:23:44.460 bottom

00:23:44.720 and she's like

00:23:46.200 can I see the arm

00:23:47.160 you know

00:23:47.660 and he's like

00:23:48.120 sure

00:23:48.300 so she shows

00:23:49.220 her the arm

00:23:49.540 nothing

00:23:49.860 nothing

00:23:50.200 she's like

00:23:50.680 jeez

00:23:51.480 I guess

00:23:51.880 it's not him

00:23:52.660 because he's

00:23:53.140 you know

00:23:53.820 the real guy

00:23:54.280 doesn't have

00:23:54.600 a British accent

00:23:55.360 even a crappy one

00:23:56.500 and isn't

00:23:57.340 with the oxygen

00:23:58.140 tank and all this

00:23:59.120 and she left

00:24:00.360 being like

00:24:00.780 lo and behold

00:24:01.340 I guess it's not him

00:24:02.380 I don't know

00:24:03.800 how he did it

00:24:04.600 it looks like

00:24:05.460 he had tattoo removal

00:24:06.480 so he's really

00:24:07.860 going to contest

00:24:08.800 identity

00:24:10.060 and maybe

00:24:11.920 maybe

00:24:12.460 maybe

00:24:12.940 plan B

00:24:14.040 Mark

00:24:14.320 is what

00:24:14.620 John had just

00:24:15.020 said

00:24:15.200 which is

00:24:15.560 I'm too

00:24:16.300 to even sit

00:24:17.660 here for this

00:24:18.140 trial

00:24:18.460 you know

00:24:20.900 I'd say

00:24:21.460 as a

00:24:22.360 undercover

00:24:22.980 Armenian

00:24:23.580 without the

00:24:24.380 IAN

00:24:24.880 on the end

00:24:25.420 I'm fascinated

00:24:26.780 by the fact

00:24:27.540 that his

00:24:27.960 last name

00:24:28.780 or at least

00:24:29.860 who they claim

00:24:30.520 he is

00:24:30.940 is Aliverdian

00:24:32.060 which is

00:24:32.620 an Armenian

00:24:33.140 name

00:24:33.580 and he

00:24:34.740 I think

00:24:35.100 that's his

00:24:35.420 real last

00:24:35.980 name

00:24:36.240 that's his

00:24:36.780 birth name

00:24:37.480 which supposedly

00:24:38.440 is his

00:24:38.960 real last

00:24:39.560 name

00:24:39.800 he doesn't

00:24:40.300 seem to

00:24:40.820 if you

00:24:41.560 could

00:24:41.880 take a

00:24:42.780 look at

00:24:43.200 somebody

00:24:43.660 although

00:24:43.940 it's

00:24:44.300 tough

00:24:44.560 to tell

00:24:45.040 behind

00:24:45.940 the

00:24:46.180 skit

00:24:46.420 he

00:24:46.980 he's

00:24:47.500 either

00:24:47.840 I'm

00:24:48.960 with

00:24:49.240 John

00:24:49.580 he's

00:24:49.900 either

00:24:50.200 clinically

00:24:50.820 insane

00:24:51.600 or

00:24:52.900 one of

00:24:53.620 the worst

00:24:54.240 Saturday Night

00:24:55.360 Live skits

00:24:56.240 I've ever

00:24:56.720 seen in my

00:24:57.420 life

00:24:57.820 he's not

00:24:58.680 I disagree

00:24:59.340 he's not

00:25:00.300 insane

00:25:00.860 he's just

00:25:01.620 a criminal

00:25:02.380 that's my

00:25:03.120 opinion

00:25:03.520 I believe

00:25:04.980 he committed

00:25:05.440 these crimes

00:25:06.160 and now

00:25:06.780 he's just

00:25:07.100 doing whatever

00:25:07.620 he can

00:25:08.000 to evade

00:25:08.940 the law

00:25:09.440 so as a

00:25:10.280 legal matter

00:25:10.960 what do you

00:25:11.800 do if you're

00:25:12.300 the judge

00:25:12.880 you know

00:25:13.860 they already

00:25:14.400 found in

00:25:15.200 Scotland

00:25:15.580 that he

00:25:16.180 is

00:25:16.620 Nicholas

00:25:17.060 Aliverdian

00:25:17.780 slash

00:25:18.340 Rossi

00:25:18.820 that he

00:25:19.220 is not

00:25:19.900 Sir

00:25:20.800 Arthur

00:25:21.200 Knight

00:25:21.560 or whatever

00:25:21.980 he's calling

00:25:22.700 himself

00:25:23.200 isn't that

00:25:24.240 ballgame

00:25:24.980 John

00:25:25.220 I mean

00:25:25.420 what do

00:25:25.620 you do

00:25:25.960 if you're

00:25:26.200 the judge

00:25:26.760 when he

00:25:27.500 just refuses

00:25:28.200 to acknowledge

00:25:28.880 it but you

00:25:29.300 all know

00:25:29.820 what the

00:25:30.160 truth is

00:25:30.680 the judge

00:25:32.780 actually has

00:25:33.500 the easy

00:25:34.080 job

00:25:34.540 and again

00:25:35.320 I hate to

00:25:35.860 sound selfish

00:25:36.740 imagine representing

00:25:37.900 him when you

00:25:38.480 can't say to a

00:25:39.600 judge

00:25:39.800 no my client

00:25:41.160 really is who

00:25:41.760 you think he

00:25:42.300 is because

00:25:43.040 you're not

00:25:43.540 allowed to

00:25:44.120 say that

00:25:44.760 you have to

00:25:45.640 address your

00:25:46.040 client as

00:25:46.740 whatever you

00:25:47.520 know he

00:25:47.840 could

00:25:48.080 Mary had a

00:25:50.420 little lamb

00:25:50.840 if that's who

00:25:51.320 he says he

00:25:51.760 is that's how

00:25:52.240 you have to

00:25:52.680 address your

00:25:53.160 client

00:25:53.600 so it's

00:25:54.800 going to be

00:25:55.360 very very

00:25:56.180 tough for a

00:25:57.420 person to

00:25:57.920 represent him

00:25:58.880 competently

00:25:59.940 when he

00:26:00.780 is so

00:26:01.560 nuts

00:26:02.120 that you

00:26:02.860 don't even

00:26:03.440 know who

00:26:04.780 he is

00:26:05.660 exactly even

00:26:06.840 though you

00:26:07.560 are charged

00:26:08.100 with the duty

00:26:08.700 of keeping

00:26:09.520 him out of

00:26:10.000 jail

00:26:10.060 but not clinically

00:26:10.420 nuts

00:26:10.840 not clinically

00:26:11.800 not legally

00:26:12.600 nuts

00:26:12.920 he's I

00:26:13.520 don't think

00:26:13.800 he's nuts

00:26:14.120 he's cunning

00:26:14.800 he's a

00:26:15.780 terrible actor

00:26:16.740 but he's

00:26:17.560 cunning and

00:26:18.940 he's putting

00:26:19.440 on a show

00:26:19.940 to try to

00:26:20.360 avoid

00:26:20.660 responsibility

00:26:21.260 here

00:26:21.840 I don't

00:26:22.600 know

00:26:22.880 so Mark

00:26:23.340 literally

00:26:23.920 what do

00:26:24.240 they do

00:26:24.460 they have

00:26:24.920 a trial

00:26:25.500 just saying

00:26:26.480 okay

00:26:26.920 if you're

00:26:27.960 the prosecutor

00:26:28.500 you say

00:26:28.960 he's claiming

00:26:29.900 he's not

00:26:30.460 a judge

00:26:30.900 has already

00:26:31.220 found he

00:26:31.680 is

00:26:32.060 I'm going

00:26:32.900 to proceed

00:26:33.400 in this

00:26:33.720 case in

00:26:34.080 front of

00:26:34.340 you and I

00:26:34.700 ask you

00:26:35.020 to do

00:26:35.240 the same

00:26:35.620 as though

00:26:36.240 I have

00:26:36.640 the right

00:26:36.980 man

00:26:37.300 I'll prove

00:26:37.900 that to

00:26:38.260 you with

00:26:38.600 the Scottish

00:26:39.020 court's

00:26:39.780 finding

00:26:40.120 but whether

00:26:41.720 he wants

00:26:42.340 to engage

00:26:42.880 in this

00:26:43.220 or not

00:26:43.660 here we

00:26:44.140 go

00:26:44.440 a man

00:26:45.160 named

00:26:45.380 Nicholas

00:26:45.700 Rossi

00:26:46.140 who I'm

00:26:46.460 telling you

00:26:46.880 is sitting

00:26:47.180 right there

00:26:47.700 raped this

00:26:48.820 girl and

00:26:49.540 sexually

00:26:49.860 assaulted

00:26:50.260 another

00:26:50.620 let's

00:26:51.720 go

00:26:51.980 well

00:26:53.080 the first

00:26:53.500 I don't

00:26:53.880 think that

00:26:54.260 the Scottish

00:26:54.780 finding is

00:26:55.720 going to be

00:26:56.300 binding

00:26:56.740 here

00:26:57.080 they'll

00:26:57.360 probably

00:26:57.800 have to

00:26:58.360 redo

00:26:58.720 the entire

00:26:59.440 process

00:27:00.580 if he's

00:27:01.140 not

00:27:01.380 admitting

00:27:01.860 to who

00:27:02.580 he is

00:27:03.420 and the

00:27:04.160 identity

00:27:04.680 there's a

00:27:05.600 couple of

00:27:06.020 different ways

00:27:06.640 that the

00:27:07.040 defense will

00:27:07.660 probably play

00:27:08.540 this

00:27:08.800 number one

00:27:09.420 is they

00:27:09.940 may

00:27:10.240 at least

00:27:11.320 initially

00:27:12.000 depending on

00:27:13.320 what evidence

00:27:14.100 is accessible

00:27:15.060 to the

00:27:15.680 lawyer

00:27:16.240 they can

00:27:16.940 either

00:27:17.220 challenge

00:27:17.960 competency

00:27:18.660 to begin

00:27:19.200 with

00:27:19.420 or they

00:27:19.780 could still

00:27:20.320 go down

00:27:20.800 the road

00:27:21.180 of the

00:27:21.500 identity

00:27:22.000 at some

00:27:24.620 point

00:27:24.960 they may

00:27:25.340 have to

00:27:25.660 do a

00:27:26.060 DNA

00:27:26.480 they may

00:27:27.140 have to

00:27:27.420 do

00:27:27.600 something

00:27:28.040 they did

00:27:28.500 a DNA

00:27:28.980 in Scotland

00:27:29.660 why shouldn't

00:27:30.580 that be

00:27:30.980 the end of the matter

00:27:31.720 I don't know that it's

00:27:31.860 necessarily

00:27:32.620 a foreign

00:27:34.380 kind of a foreign

00:27:35.480 determination

00:27:36.020 of a foreign

00:27:36.880 court is not

00:27:37.620 necessarily going to

00:27:38.480 be binding

00:27:38.980 here in the

00:27:39.560 US

00:27:39.900 I don't even

00:27:42.220 know

00:27:42.400 I mean I

00:27:42.860 assume somebody

00:27:43.640 gave

00:27:44.080 them some

00:27:45.460 hair from

00:27:46.360 a hairbrush

00:27:47.140 of the actual

00:27:48.020 Nicholas Rossi

00:27:49.020 you know

00:27:49.860 there

00:27:50.180 I mean

00:27:51.340 there's DNA

00:27:51.880 in the rape

00:27:52.420 test

00:27:53.040 John

00:27:53.380 that's how

00:27:53.740 they found

00:27:54.140 him

00:27:54.380 that one

00:27:55.260 of the

00:27:55.580 victims

00:27:55.980 did a

00:27:56.700 rape kit

00:27:57.140 and while

00:27:57.880 it didn't

00:27:58.180 have a

00:27:58.440 hit at

00:27:58.720 the time

00:27:59.160 you know

00:27:59.560 they went

00:27:59.900 back and

00:28:00.240 tested it

00:28:00.660 again

00:28:00.940 and it

00:28:01.220 came up

00:28:01.480 so he

00:28:01.740 was in

00:28:02.100 the system

00:28:02.580 and they

00:28:03.560 matched it

00:28:03.960 to Nicholas

00:28:04.340 Rossi

00:28:04.760 so

00:28:05.060 if they

00:28:08.140 have

00:28:08.440 Aliverdian's

00:28:09.440 DNA

00:28:09.740 which they

00:28:10.380 probably

00:28:11.020 already

00:28:11.520 do

00:28:11.900 and then

00:28:13.200 they test

00:28:13.900 it against

00:28:14.320 the person

00:28:14.880 they have

00:28:15.360 there in

00:28:15.800 custody

00:28:16.200 and they

00:28:16.620 test it

00:28:17.060 against the

00:28:17.640 sample

00:28:18.100 then

00:28:18.940 the lawyer

00:28:19.680 is going

00:28:19.980 to take

00:28:20.280 a look

00:28:20.580 at that

00:28:21.020 and then

00:28:21.420 as long

00:28:22.120 as they're

00:28:22.480 all

00:28:22.700 consistent

00:28:23.380 then the

00:28:23.960 lawyer

00:28:24.200 is going

00:28:24.500 to move

00:28:24.860 to the

00:28:25.200 competency

00:28:25.720 argument

00:28:26.280 because

00:28:26.920 there's

00:28:27.520 not going

00:28:27.900 to be

00:28:28.140 a whole

00:28:28.480 lot

00:28:28.700 of play

00:28:29.320 if the

00:28:30.100 same

00:28:30.540 DNA

00:28:31.560 hits

00:28:32.260 that are

00:28:33.180 in the

00:28:33.680 sample

00:28:34.080 that they

00:28:34.540 now have

00:28:35.180 also match

00:28:36.200 the person

00:28:36.740 who's sitting

00:28:37.280 next to you

00:28:37.840 in a courtroom

00:28:38.460 or at least

00:28:39.580 on the video

00:28:40.320 and is claiming

00:28:41.660 not to be

00:28:42.340 the person

00:28:42.860 if it's

00:28:43.260 one in the

00:28:43.760 same

00:28:44.100 then you

00:28:44.500 move to

00:28:44.960 the mental

00:28:45.420 defense

00:28:45.960 he is

00:28:47.680 accused

00:28:48.020 he's already

00:28:48.620 a convicted

00:28:49.180 sex offender

00:28:49.920 he's been

00:28:50.320 accused of

00:28:50.840 raping a

00:28:51.300 woman in

00:28:51.940 Utah

00:28:52.600 in Orem

00:28:54.580 which is in

00:28:55.220 Utah County

00:28:56.040 in 2008

00:28:56.560 another woman

00:28:57.200 in South

00:28:57.620 Lake County

00:28:58.240 later the

00:28:58.800 same year

00:28:59.560 he's going

00:29:01.180 to face

00:29:01.460 separate trials

00:29:02.200 for each

00:29:02.660 allegation

00:29:03.620 his stepson

00:29:05.240 or step

00:29:06.040 stepfather

00:29:07.320 estranged

00:29:08.180 is named

00:29:09.300 David Rossi

00:29:10.200 Jonna

00:29:10.500 and he told

00:29:11.980 the press

00:29:12.600 by the way

00:29:14.340 this stepfather

00:29:15.080 is an

00:29:15.620 Engelbert

00:29:16.140 Humperdinck

00:29:16.820 impersonator

00:29:17.600 you cannot

00:29:18.320 make this

00:29:18.740 it makes

00:29:19.880 sense

00:29:20.280 who can

00:29:22.200 name me

00:29:22.500 an Engelbert

00:29:23.120 Humperdinck

00:29:23.700 song

00:29:24.020 anyone

00:29:24.380 no

00:29:25.480 I'm pretty

00:29:26.520 sure

00:29:26.840 I did

00:29:27.660 not

00:29:27.820 know

00:29:28.320 what

00:29:29.440 I didn't

00:29:30.940 google this

00:29:31.460 but I am

00:29:31.840 pretty sure

00:29:32.400 it's

00:29:33.780 and I

00:29:34.480 sing you

00:29:35.220 a song

00:29:36.360 after

00:29:37.480 the

00:29:38.220 loving

00:29:38.780 right

00:29:40.200 I think

00:29:40.720 somebody

00:29:41.020 will google

00:29:41.420 and tell

00:29:41.740 me

00:29:41.840 he says

00:29:44.840 that this

00:29:45.300 guy is

00:29:45.940 quote

00:29:46.180 the devil

00:29:46.720 spawn

00:29:47.360 that he

00:29:48.140 was an

00:29:48.540 evil child

00:29:49.380 who punched

00:29:50.120 his mother

00:29:50.640 and his

00:29:51.240 grandmother

00:29:51.680 and that

00:29:52.680 quote

00:29:52.960 he will

00:29:53.300 do

00:29:53.500 anything

00:29:53.940 to hide

00:29:54.460 from the

00:29:54.820 law

00:29:55.160 the

00:29:55.780 wheelchair

00:29:56.220 the mask

00:29:57.100 it's

00:29:58.020 crap

00:29:58.420 there's

00:29:58.860 nothing

00:29:59.180 wrong

00:29:59.480 with him

00:29:59.860 everything

00:30:00.660 about him

00:30:01.400 is

00:30:03.060 Nicky

00:30:03.620 that's

00:30:03.940 what he

00:30:04.100 used to

00:30:04.360 call

00:30:04.620 his

00:30:05.180 stepson

00:30:05.600 my

00:30:06.120 first

00:30:06.380 impression

00:30:06.720 of

00:30:06.900 Nicky

00:30:07.240 when he

00:30:07.780 became

00:30:08.020 my

00:30:08.200 stepson

00:30:08.520 was he

00:30:09.180 had

00:30:09.320 mental

00:30:09.620 problems

00:30:10.040 he got

00:30:10.640 worse

00:30:10.900 with

00:30:11.080 every

00:30:11.440 day

00:30:11.780 he

00:30:11.980 would

00:30:12.140 urinate

00:30:12.560 in his

00:30:12.840 brother's

00:30:13.220 bed

00:30:13.400 just to

00:30:13.680 get his

00:30:13.920 brother

00:30:14.140 in trouble

00:30:14.700 jump out

00:30:15.420 of windows

00:30:15.860 run away

00:30:16.520 in his

00:30:16.760 underwear

00:30:17.100 on and

00:30:17.980 on it

00:30:18.280 goes

00:30:18.540 this is a

00:30:19.180 seriously

00:30:19.540 messed up

00:30:20.060 guy

00:30:20.380 and I

00:30:21.140 think he

00:30:21.420 belongs

00:30:21.820 behind

00:30:22.360 bars

00:30:22.780 so are

00:30:23.180 we

00:30:23.340 predicting

00:30:23.680 the court

00:30:24.220 will get

00:30:24.500 to the

00:30:24.720 right

00:30:24.940 identity

00:30:26.140 and

00:30:27.060 conclusion

00:30:27.880 in this

00:30:28.680 case

00:30:28.900 yeah

00:30:30.520 I don't

00:30:31.280 think that

00:30:31.640 there's any

00:30:32.060 question the

00:30:32.640 court's going

00:30:33.020 to get to

00:30:33.380 identity

00:30:33.820 if they

00:30:34.220 haven't

00:30:34.460 already

00:30:34.860 in terms

00:30:35.840 of that

00:30:36.520 all of the

00:30:37.360 elements that

00:30:38.160 they need

00:30:38.600 are there

00:30:39.060 then

00:30:39.840 but what

00:30:40.640 the step

00:30:41.140 father is

00:30:41.800 actually

00:30:42.880 helping the

00:30:43.600 defense to

00:30:44.220 some degree

00:30:44.880 if there's

00:30:45.820 you know

00:30:46.100 real-time

00:30:47.260 anecdotes

00:30:49.180 about how

00:30:49.860 what a

00:30:50.980 problem

00:30:51.460 child

00:30:51.960 and what

00:30:52.300 a mentally

00:30:52.840 challenged

00:30:54.540 person he

00:30:55.360 was

00:30:55.640 it would

00:30:57.200 be almost

00:30:57.720 incumbent

00:30:58.360 upon the

00:30:59.000 defense

00:30:59.420 to

00:30:59.700 plumb

00:31:00.540 that

00:31:00.780 they have

00:31:01.280 to

00:31:01.500 natalia

00:31:06.900 grace

00:31:07.360 all right

00:31:08.680 my

00:31:09.560 hairstylist

00:31:10.480 and friend

00:31:10.840 sarah

00:31:11.180 told me

00:31:11.880 i needed

00:31:12.280 to watch

00:31:12.740 this

00:31:13.080 documentary

00:31:13.760 um

00:31:14.940 so i

00:31:15.440 did

00:31:15.640 this past

00:31:16.460 year

00:31:16.640 i don't

00:31:16.960 know if

00:31:17.160 you guys

00:31:17.460 have seen

00:31:17.980 it

00:31:18.180 it's

00:31:18.680 called

00:31:18.880 the

00:31:19.080 curious

00:31:19.540 case

00:31:20.120 of

00:31:21.100 natalia

00:31:21.920 grace

00:31:22.420 i watched

00:31:23.640 season

00:31:24.140 one last

00:31:24.820 year

00:31:25.080 but season

00:31:25.960 two

00:31:26.400 just came

00:31:27.300 out

00:31:27.580 in the

00:31:28.240 first week

00:31:28.540 of january

00:31:29.000 all right

00:31:29.560 last week

00:31:30.060 so the

00:31:31.140 curious

00:31:31.560 case

00:31:32.020 of

00:31:32.280 natalia

00:31:32.680 grace

00:31:33.000 it's

00:31:33.940 about

00:31:34.360 this

00:31:35.280 dwarf

00:31:35.860 alleged

00:31:37.620 dwarf

00:31:38.440 i mean

00:31:38.760 no she

00:31:39.060 is a

00:31:39.320 dwarf

00:31:39.540 she's

00:31:39.800 actually

00:31:40.100 she's

00:31:40.560 not

00:31:40.860 alleged

00:31:41.640 she is

00:31:42.140 one

00:31:42.440 no

00:31:42.720 she's

00:31:43.180 an

00:31:43.260 actual

00:31:43.520 dwarf

00:31:43.840 alleged

00:31:45.140 child

00:31:45.820 at the

00:31:46.600 time of

00:31:46.900 the

00:31:47.040 adoption

00:31:47.580 and that

00:31:48.520 was in

00:31:48.900 dispute

00:31:49.240 how just

00:31:49.980 how old

00:31:50.380 she was

00:31:50.780 so she

00:31:52.400 was from

00:31:53.920 ukraine

00:31:54.420 and she

00:31:55.820 got adopted

00:31:57.060 by

00:31:58.200 michael

00:31:59.120 and christine

00:32:00.040 barnett

00:32:01.440 here is

00:32:02.780 michael

00:32:03.380 barnett

00:32:04.020 who is

00:32:04.820 reason

00:32:05.280 enough

00:32:06.180 to watch

00:32:07.100 this series

00:32:07.680 this is

00:32:08.600 the adoptive

00:32:09.240 father

00:32:09.580 who is

00:32:10.080 one of

00:32:10.280 the most

00:32:10.500 colorful

00:32:10.940 characters

00:32:11.860 i've ever

00:32:12.380 beheld

00:32:12.840 in a

00:32:13.760 television

00:32:14.080 series

00:32:14.620 i uh

00:32:16.100 listen to

00:32:16.580 him talking

00:32:17.180 about what

00:32:17.960 happened

00:32:18.340 after they

00:32:18.780 adopted

00:32:19.160 what they

00:32:19.600 thought was

00:32:20.160 a six-year-old

00:32:21.180 ukrainian

00:32:21.760 girl

00:32:22.020 so we

00:32:23.760 get to

00:32:23.980 the hotel

00:32:24.300 that night

00:32:24.880 and christine's

00:32:26.400 going to give

00:32:26.880 our brand

00:32:27.580 new daughter

00:32:28.680 a bath

00:32:29.200 and i

00:32:30.700 hear a shout

00:32:31.320 from the

00:32:31.680 bathroom

00:32:32.020 this was a

00:32:33.280 i'm not

00:32:33.640 playing around

00:32:34.320 come here

00:32:34.800 right now

00:32:35.420 michael

00:32:35.840 shout

00:32:36.740 i get up

00:32:37.860 i go fly

00:32:38.560 into the

00:32:38.820 bathroom

00:32:39.200 and

00:32:40.500 the color

00:32:42.000 is almost

00:32:42.320 gone from

00:32:42.680 her face

00:32:43.160 it's almost

00:32:44.660 like she's

00:32:45.100 seen a ghost

00:32:45.720 she's

00:32:46.280 she's truly

00:32:47.380 frightened

00:32:47.860 and she

00:32:48.300 just doesn't

00:32:48.900 know what

00:32:49.360 she's seeing

00:32:49.980 and what's

00:32:50.260 going on

00:32:50.900 she says

00:32:51.620 michael

00:32:52.020 michael

00:32:53.160 look

00:32:53.560 looked

00:32:54.980 down

00:32:55.320 and natalia

00:32:56.820 had full

00:32:57.180 pubic hair

00:32:57.680 and

00:32:59.180 i don't

00:33:01.140 know what

00:33:01.560 to think

00:33:02.120 google's

00:33:03.880 telling us

00:33:04.280 well

00:33:04.480 earliest possible

00:33:05.980 time

00:33:06.380 lowest common

00:33:06.960 denominator

00:33:07.500 eight

00:33:08.120 so we just

00:33:10.060 go okay

00:33:10.480 look our

00:33:11.080 mission we were

00:33:11.760 going to show

00:33:12.440 love and compassion

00:33:13.200 to somebody that

00:33:13.640 never had it

00:33:14.200 before

00:33:14.580 that doesn't

00:33:15.540 make a

00:33:15.840 difference

00:33:16.280 there was a

00:33:17.060 day i came

00:33:17.980 home from

00:33:18.400 work

00:33:18.720 christine's got

00:33:20.380 a pair of

00:33:20.700 natalia's

00:33:21.100 underwear

00:33:21.460 christine asked

00:33:23.680 natalia to

00:33:24.180 tell me what's

00:33:24.900 going on

00:33:25.440 remember her

00:33:26.240 physicalness at

00:33:28.240 the time her

00:33:28.860 hands were just

00:33:29.460 out in front of

00:33:29.980 her like this

00:33:30.680 she said well

00:33:32.640 i have a

00:33:36.340 period

00:33:36.680 and i've been

00:33:39.560 hiding it

00:33:40.600 and i

00:33:44.380 i just don't

00:33:46.860 know what's

00:33:47.160 going on

00:33:47.540 right now

00:33:48.240 okay

00:33:50.760 so

00:33:52.220 they

00:33:53.600 live with

00:33:54.620 this

00:33:55.060 person

00:33:56.620 child

00:33:57.120 right

00:33:57.560 they're not

00:33:57.960 sure

00:33:58.240 now

00:33:58.700 what

00:33:59.660 what exactly

00:34:00.560 is the age

00:34:01.560 of this

00:34:02.000 person that

00:34:02.840 they've adopted

00:34:03.420 and

00:34:04.860 they start

00:34:06.200 to see

00:34:06.640 what they

00:34:07.060 say is

00:34:07.400 very

00:34:07.980 disturbing

00:34:08.840 behavior

00:34:09.840 they think

00:34:11.340 she's six

00:34:12.000 but now

00:34:12.500 they have

00:34:12.760 real questions

00:34:13.320 about whether

00:34:13.680 she's six

00:34:14.280 and the

00:34:15.260 father

00:34:15.740 the adoptive

00:34:16.460 father

00:34:16.720 michael

00:34:17.140 tells

00:34:17.560 among other

00:34:18.260 stories

00:34:18.740 this story

00:34:19.940 about when

00:34:20.400 they all

00:34:20.800 went to

00:34:21.460 i think it

00:34:22.080 was a christmas

00:34:22.540 tree farm

00:34:23.020 or a farm

00:34:23.540 all together

00:34:24.220 what happened

00:34:25.500 with their

00:34:26.480 newly adopted

00:34:27.360 quote little

00:34:28.000 girl

00:34:28.320 i turn

00:34:29.000 and look

00:34:29.440 natalia and christine

00:34:31.720 are in a physical

00:34:32.860 altercation

00:34:33.500 it looks like

00:34:35.200 natalia's trying

00:34:35.760 to pull

00:34:36.400 christine

00:34:37.020 now you might

00:34:39.200 think hey

00:34:39.640 she's a little

00:34:40.140 person how

00:34:40.660 strong can

00:34:41.160 she be

00:34:41.600 she uses

00:34:44.020 her arms

00:34:44.700 a lot

00:34:45.400 push herself

00:34:46.660 up on things

00:34:47.480 she goes up

00:34:48.340 the stairs

00:34:48.820 using her arms

00:34:49.720 she's got

00:34:50.400 guns that

00:34:51.040 schwarzener

00:34:51.720 would be

00:34:51.940 impressed

00:34:52.300 with

00:34:52.620 she's very

00:34:54.100 strong

00:34:54.520 my wife

00:34:56.160 is frail

00:34:56.740 she's got

00:34:57.720 a degenerative

00:34:58.300 disease called

00:34:58.820 lupus

00:34:59.260 she's weak

00:35:00.340 i start to

00:35:01.480 go back

00:35:01.940 christine

00:35:02.440 says no

00:35:03.240 go

00:35:05.000 okay

00:35:07.260 she wants

00:35:08.760 my son

00:35:09.040 to have

00:35:09.260 his birthday

00:35:10.080 we go

00:35:10.880 and me

00:35:11.540 and the boys

00:35:11.940 double time

00:35:12.520 it

00:35:12.800 we get a

00:35:16.140 little bit

00:35:16.340 farther down

00:35:17.060 and we hear

00:35:19.700 the sirens

00:35:20.200 the second

00:35:23.120 i heard

00:35:23.420 the sirens

00:35:23.980 i thought

00:35:26.080 christine

00:35:26.460 was dead

00:35:26.800 okay

00:35:28.140 you got to

00:35:28.920 watch the

00:35:29.240 whole series

00:35:29.720 in order to

00:35:30.300 fully appreciate

00:35:30.940 all that the

00:35:31.960 family says

00:35:32.500 happened

00:35:32.860 they

00:35:34.080 come to

00:35:35.340 believe

00:35:35.680 that the

00:35:36.360 person they've

00:35:36.980 adopted

00:35:37.400 is not

00:35:38.480 six

00:35:38.980 but is

00:35:39.840 21 years

00:35:41.180 old

00:35:41.600 that she

00:35:42.460 was not

00:35:42.800 born in

00:35:43.480 2003 or

00:35:44.180 2004

00:35:44.620 she was

00:35:45.140 born in

00:35:45.820 1989

00:35:46.780 and that

00:35:48.480 this whole

00:35:49.000 thing

00:35:49.480 has been

00:35:50.360 a ruse

00:35:51.240 potentially

00:35:52.460 by this

00:35:53.060 ukrainian

00:35:53.680 mother

00:35:54.040 potentially

00:35:54.500 by natalia

00:35:55.540 grace

00:35:56.040 i don't know

00:35:57.000 who who

00:35:57.560 is in on

00:35:58.040 it the

00:35:58.520 alleged

00:35:59.060 scheme

00:35:59.740 but they're

00:36:01.140 like not

00:36:01.900 only is she

00:36:02.520 not telling

00:36:02.840 the truth

00:36:03.220 but she's

00:36:03.700 a scammer

00:36:04.320 and she's

00:36:04.760 dangerous

00:36:05.340 she she

00:36:06.800 tried to

00:36:07.100 kill my

00:36:07.380 wife

00:36:07.700 so they

00:36:09.560 get rid

00:36:10.160 of her

00:36:10.460 they find

00:36:12.180 an apartment

00:36:13.140 and they

00:36:14.540 move this

00:36:15.800 quote

00:36:16.540 daughter

00:36:17.100 they're now

00:36:18.200 saying

00:36:18.840 is an

00:36:19.720 adult

00:36:20.180 into the

00:36:21.260 apartment

00:36:21.680 like

00:36:22.140 unsupervised

00:36:23.300 which if

00:36:23.940 she's really

00:36:24.300 21 is

00:36:24.900 not a

00:36:25.160 problem

00:36:25.460 but if

00:36:26.060 she's

00:36:26.360 six

00:36:26.760 or nine

00:36:28.160 whatever

00:36:28.660 it is

00:36:30.000 yada

00:36:31.540 yada

00:36:32.000 a court

00:36:33.900 has a

00:36:35.100 hearing

00:36:35.420 because they

00:36:35.920 get brought

00:36:36.440 in on

00:36:36.980 child neglect

00:36:37.620 charges

00:36:38.240 under the

00:36:39.080 auspices of

00:36:39.740 you put a

00:36:40.420 nine-year-old

00:36:40.880 in an

00:36:41.120 apartment

00:36:41.300 by herself

00:36:41.860 your bad

00:36:42.300 adoptive

00:36:42.700 parents

00:36:43.040 and they

00:36:44.240 are

00:36:44.760 persuasive

00:36:46.140 enough

00:36:46.460 that the

00:36:46.740 judge

00:36:46.940 says

00:36:47.260 you know

00:36:47.880 what

00:36:48.120 I accept

00:36:49.120 that she

00:36:49.940 was born

00:36:50.220 in 1989

00:36:50.800 they revised

00:36:51.880 the birth

00:36:52.240 certificate

00:36:52.620 and the judge

00:36:53.520 throws out

00:36:53.900 the charges

00:36:54.300 against them

00:36:54.860 okay

00:36:55.860 now

00:36:57.400 season two

00:36:58.840 comes out

00:36:59.660 Natalia

00:37:01.040 Grace

00:37:01.640 says

00:37:03.000 she really

00:37:04.340 was six

00:37:05.560 I haven't

00:37:06.800 done the math

00:37:07.200 it's like six

00:37:07.780 to eight

00:37:08.320 when they

00:37:08.860 adopted her

00:37:09.480 that they

00:37:10.400 were lying

00:37:11.120 she wasn't

00:37:12.240 born in

00:37:12.600 1989

00:37:13.080 they put

00:37:14.340 a little

00:37:14.720 girl

00:37:15.100 a nine-year-old

00:37:16.060 in a

00:37:16.700 damned

00:37:16.960 apartment

00:37:17.500 by herself

00:37:18.980 and not

00:37:20.920 to worry

00:37:21.500 because

00:37:21.940 she has

00:37:23.160 found

00:37:23.800 a new

00:37:25.440 set

00:37:26.020 of adoptive

00:37:27.040 parents

00:37:27.500 to like

00:37:28.000 help her

00:37:28.680 out

00:37:28.780 even though

00:37:29.120 now

00:37:29.400 she's

00:37:30.180 definitely

00:37:30.500 older

00:37:30.880 if she

00:37:31.920 was born

00:37:32.340 if she

00:37:32.600 was actually

00:37:33.080 born in

00:37:33.520 2004

00:37:34.040 she's

00:37:35.160 an adult

00:37:36.200 now

00:37:36.480 legally

00:37:37.100 but here

00:37:38.220 she is

00:37:38.820 saying

00:37:39.160 we took

00:37:39.540 a DNA

00:37:40.040 test

00:37:40.500 and the

00:37:40.740 DNA

00:37:41.020 test

00:37:41.400 proves

00:37:41.780 today

00:37:42.540 in 2023

00:37:44.140 I guess

00:37:44.620 when this

00:37:44.860 was filmed

00:37:45.260 I am

00:37:45.960 22 years

00:37:46.860 old

00:37:47.160 so I

00:37:48.280 I was

00:37:49.680 a little

00:37:50.280 girl

00:37:50.560 when they

00:37:51.000 adopted me

00:37:51.600 in stop

00:37:52.320 five

00:37:52.600 watch this

00:37:53.140 I knew it

00:37:54.620 they still

00:37:55.220 did what

00:37:55.640 they did

00:37:56.260 this

00:37:57.260 one little

00:37:58.040 piece of

00:37:58.360 paper

00:37:58.700 throws

00:37:59.740 every

00:38:00.660 single

00:38:01.380 lie

00:38:01.980 that the

00:38:03.380 Barnett's

00:38:03.780 has said

00:38:04.220 right into

00:38:04.680 the trash

00:38:05.260 with a

00:38:06.700 match

00:38:07.040 this is

00:38:07.820 so big

00:38:08.460 because

00:38:08.900 literally

00:38:09.500 this has

00:38:10.180 been

00:38:10.320 13

00:38:10.800 years

00:38:11.460 13

00:38:12.280 years

00:38:12.680 of just

00:38:13.020 two

00:38:13.300 people

00:38:13.820 lying

00:38:14.640 their

00:38:14.900 butts

00:38:15.160 off

00:38:15.540 so

00:38:16.240 she's

00:38:16.700 found

00:38:17.420 redemption

00:38:18.640 with a

00:38:19.380 new

00:38:19.600 adoptive

00:38:20.160 family

00:38:20.600 that's

00:38:21.060 gonna

00:38:21.220 she says

00:38:21.760 take care

00:38:22.220 of her

00:38:22.500 and shepherd

00:38:22.960 her through

00:38:23.500 the civil

00:38:24.940 lawsuits

00:38:25.640 that she

00:38:26.780 says

00:38:27.260 she's going

00:38:27.980 to unleash

00:38:28.660 against

00:38:29.300 the Barnett's

00:38:31.020 Michael

00:38:31.540 and Christine

00:38:32.320 so

00:38:33.540 before I

00:38:34.240 get to

00:38:34.500 the

00:38:34.700 stunning

00:38:35.480 epilogue

00:38:36.340 of this

00:38:37.040 thing

00:38:37.340 does

00:38:39.760 she

00:38:40.080 have

00:38:40.540 a

00:38:40.840 civil

00:38:41.120 lawsuit

00:38:41.640 against

00:38:42.860 that

00:38:43.240 first

00:38:43.540 family

00:38:44.020 and

00:38:44.800 can

00:38:45.440 she

00:38:45.700 revive

00:38:46.240 or

00:38:46.600 seek

00:38:46.900 to

00:38:47.120 revive

00:38:47.560 these

00:38:48.140 old

00:38:48.360 criminal

00:38:48.800 charges

00:38:49.300 that

00:38:49.980 were

00:38:50.140 dismissed

00:38:50.480 for

00:38:50.660 child

00:38:50.900 neglect

00:38:51.200 that

00:38:51.400 were

00:38:51.540 dismissed

00:38:51.980 based

00:38:52.760 on the

00:38:53.080 court's

00:38:53.400 belief

00:38:53.820 that

00:38:54.540 she

00:38:54.760 was

00:38:55.060 in

00:38:55.220 fact

00:38:55.560 born

00:38:56.540 in

00:38:56.680 1989

00:38:57.160 not

00:38:57.900 in

00:38:58.060 2003

00:38:59.040 or

00:38:59.360 whenever

00:38:59.620 this

00:39:00.020 is

00:39:00.140 so

00:39:00.340 you

00:39:01.140 can't

00:39:01.420 make

00:39:02.120 it

00:39:02.220 up

00:39:02.440 Mark

00:39:03.440 I'll

00:39:03.560 give

00:39:03.660 that

00:39:03.800 one

00:39:03.900 to

00:39:03.980 you

00:39:04.100 start

00:39:04.360 thanks

00:39:05.460 a lot

00:39:05.940 talk

00:39:06.600 about

00:39:06.880 a

00:39:07.180 thanks

00:39:08.700 about

00:39:09.660 a

00:39:09.960 law

00:39:10.220 review

00:39:10.640 question

00:39:11.620 as far

00:39:13.320 as

00:39:13.560 reviving

00:39:14.360 criminal

00:39:14.940 charges

00:39:15.480 I don't

00:39:15.900 know

00:39:16.080 how

00:39:16.260 they

00:39:16.460 would

00:39:16.660 do

00:39:16.860 that

00:39:17.220 or

00:39:17.640 that

00:39:18.400 would

00:39:18.560 be

00:39:18.720 the

00:39:19.000 prosecutorial

00:39:20.140 decision

00:39:21.760 I

00:39:22.380 can't

00:39:22.860 imagine

00:39:23.420 that

00:39:23.740 they

00:39:23.920 could

00:39:24.120 do

00:39:24.300 that

00:39:24.580 when

00:39:25.060 they've

00:39:25.320 got

00:39:25.480 a

00:39:25.660 court

00:39:25.960 that

00:39:26.220 has

00:39:26.460 blessed

00:39:27.000 it

00:39:27.280 unless

00:39:28.060 there's

00:39:28.780 some

00:39:29.040 other

00:39:29.400 auxiliary

00:39:30.300 charge

00:39:31.080 that

00:39:31.340 they

00:39:31.580 a

00:39:31.860 prosecutor

00:39:32.280 would

00:39:32.500 want

00:39:32.680 to

00:39:32.800 bring

00:39:33.060 if

00:39:33.420 the

00:39:33.700 prosecutor

00:39:34.240 believed

00:39:34.920 that

00:39:35.480 the

00:39:35.880 parents

00:39:36.600 had

00:39:37.060 done

00:39:37.300 this

00:39:37.520 willfully

00:39:38.080 or

00:39:38.280 maliciously

00:39:39.120 well

00:39:39.340 that's

00:39:39.960 it

00:39:40.180 right

00:39:40.400 let's

00:39:41.260 say

00:39:41.400 they

00:39:41.920 can

00:39:42.200 bring

00:39:42.480 it

00:39:42.680 somehow

00:39:43.160 the

00:39:44.340 defense

00:39:44.780 is

00:39:44.980 going

00:39:45.120 to

00:39:45.200 be

00:39:45.540 we

00:39:46.160 we

00:39:46.800 believed

00:39:47.520 she

00:39:48.300 was

00:39:48.500 a

00:39:48.640 grown

00:39:48.880 up

00:39:49.120 that's

00:39:50.700 exactly

00:39:51.080 right

00:39:51.420 and we

00:39:51.880 believed

00:39:52.260 it

00:39:52.440 so

00:39:52.640 much

00:39:52.920 that

00:39:53.240 we

00:39:53.720 went

00:39:53.980 through

00:39:54.160 the

00:39:54.340 court

00:39:54.540 system

00:39:54.960 and

00:39:55.140 the

00:39:55.300 court

00:39:55.480 believed

00:39:55.880 this

00:39:56.120 as

00:39:56.320 well

00:39:56.580 so

00:39:58.280 John

00:39:58.620 I

00:39:59.040 mean

00:39:59.200 criminally

00:40:00.000 and

00:40:00.280 honestly

00:40:00.660 civilly

00:40:01.240 too

00:40:01.680 like

00:40:02.860 I

00:40:04.000 guess

00:40:04.280 do

00:40:04.500 they

00:40:04.660 need

00:40:04.940 to

00:40:05.120 prove

00:40:05.480 that

00:40:05.700 these

00:40:05.960 were

00:40:06.120 just

00:40:06.340 terrible

00:40:06.880 people

00:40:07.320 who

00:40:07.580 knew

00:40:07.920 that

00:40:08.100 it

00:40:08.200 was

00:40:08.320 a

00:40:08.480 six

00:40:08.700 year

00:40:08.880 old

00:40:09.180 or

00:40:09.980 six

00:40:10.620 to

00:40:10.760 eight

00:40:11.080 and

00:40:12.040 couldn't

00:40:12.580 deal

00:40:12.800 with

00:40:13.000 her

00:40:13.220 so

00:40:13.700 they

00:40:13.880 made

00:40:14.120 up

00:40:14.280 this

00:40:14.500 lie

00:40:14.860 like

00:40:15.100 that

00:40:15.220 the

00:40:15.360 whole

00:40:15.560 the

00:40:16.080 pubic

00:40:16.420 hair

00:40:16.760 the

00:40:17.020 period

00:40:17.660 like

00:40:17.960 those

00:40:18.120 were

00:40:18.240 all

00:40:18.480 lies

00:40:19.320 or

00:40:19.880 this

00:40:20.020 is

00:40:20.120 just

00:40:20.260 like

00:40:20.520 how

00:40:21.320 are

00:40:21.400 they

00:40:21.460 going

00:40:21.560 to

00:40:21.600 get

00:40:21.740 past

00:40:22.200 what

00:40:22.420 seems

00:40:22.740 like

00:40:22.960 a

00:40:23.100 legitimate

00:40:23.460 belief

00:40:30.280 the

00:40:30.420 first

00:40:30.820 one

00:40:31.220 is

00:40:31.640 how

00:40:32.500 is

00:40:32.720 it

00:40:32.860 possible

00:40:33.300 that

00:40:33.660 a

00:40:33.940 surrogate

00:40:34.440 court

00:40:34.820 judge

00:40:35.540 changed

00:40:36.660 a

00:40:37.340 person's

00:40:39.220 birth

00:40:39.540 certificate

00:40:40.140 without

00:40:40.900 some

00:40:41.540 sort

00:40:41.960 of

00:40:42.420 serious

00:40:43.000 expert

00:40:43.660 medical

00:40:44.260 testimony

00:40:45.800 numero

00:40:46.640 uno

00:40:47.160 number

00:40:48.160 two

00:40:48.660 I mean

00:40:49.260 I suppose

00:40:49.780 because

00:40:50.100 if they

00:40:50.400 didn't go

00:40:51.000 through that

00:40:51.360 process

00:40:51.840 which

00:40:52.240 I

00:40:52.560 didn't

00:40:52.840 even

00:40:53.020 know

00:40:53.200 you

00:40:53.360 could

00:40:53.500 do

00:40:53.700 I'll

00:40:53.940 be

00:40:54.040 honest

00:40:54.260 with

00:40:54.380 you

00:40:54.460 guys

00:40:54.620 doing

00:40:54.880 this

00:40:55.060 a

00:40:55.160 long

00:40:55.300 time

00:40:55.480 didn't

00:40:55.740 know

00:40:55.880 you

00:40:56.000 could

00:40:56.120 go

00:40:56.240 to

00:40:56.340 a

00:40:56.440 surrogate

00:40:56.700 judge

00:40:57.020 and

00:40:57.160 say

00:40:57.280 see

00:40:57.700 this

00:40:57.900 kid

00:40:58.100 here

00:40:58.320 not

00:40:58.720 a

00:40:58.880 kid

00:40:59.120 she

00:40:59.680 is

00:40:59.800 22

00:41:00.240 change

00:41:00.660 the

00:41:00.820 birth

00:41:01.020 certificate

00:41:01.460 I

00:41:01.940 didn't

00:41:02.180 know

00:41:02.300 that

00:41:02.640 was

00:41:02.860 impossible

00:41:03.600 they

00:41:04.120 did

00:41:04.320 go

00:41:04.500 through

00:41:04.660 a

00:41:04.800 process

00:41:05.220 for

00:41:05.520 sure

00:41:05.760 they

00:41:06.760 did

00:41:07.120 and

00:41:07.440 if

00:41:07.660 that

00:41:08.080 wasn't

00:41:08.820 part

00:41:09.100 of

00:41:09.220 the

00:41:09.380 equation

00:41:09.940 then

00:41:10.960 I

00:41:11.160 think

00:41:11.520 there

00:41:11.780 is

00:41:12.000 criminal

00:41:12.680 liability

00:41:13.220 for

00:41:13.480 sure

00:41:13.660 because

00:41:13.880 then

00:41:14.120 they're

00:41:14.300 just

00:41:14.500 taking

00:41:14.820 a

00:41:14.980 kid

00:41:15.100 that

00:41:15.280 if

00:41:15.680 you

00:41:15.800 just

00:41:16.160 think

00:41:16.660 your

00:41:17.180 six

00:41:17.520 year

00:41:17.640 old

00:41:17.820 is

00:41:17.940 really

00:41:18.120 22

00:41:18.600 now

00:41:19.360 you've

00:41:20.060 got

00:41:20.240 the

00:41:20.400 problem

00:41:20.800 and

00:41:21.160 I

00:41:21.280 think

00:41:21.420 they

00:41:21.540 could

00:41:21.660 have

00:41:21.740 been

00:41:21.860 criminally

00:41:22.200 prosecuted

00:41:22.720 but

00:41:22.900 because

00:41:23.340 the

00:41:23.920 intervention

00:41:24.940 of the

00:41:25.520 surrogate

00:41:26.000 court

00:41:26.380 actually

00:41:27.380 legitimizing

00:41:28.580 their

00:41:29.260 crime

00:41:29.920 if you

00:41:30.700 think

00:41:30.920 about

00:41:31.220 it

00:41:31.440 then

00:41:32.180 you

00:41:33.000 can't

00:41:33.980 go

00:41:34.120 after

00:41:34.360 that

00:41:34.600 judge

00:41:35.140 so

00:41:36.080 I

00:41:36.240 think

00:41:36.460 that

00:41:36.700 that's

00:41:37.100 going to

00:41:38.160 lay

00:41:38.360 dead

00:41:39.240 that protects

00:41:40.600 them

00:41:41.020 absolutely

00:41:44.020 it

00:41:44.740 immunizes

00:41:46.260 them

00:41:46.660 to the

00:41:47.080 degree

00:41:47.500 that

00:41:47.800 they've

00:41:48.660 gone

00:41:48.860 to a

00:41:49.180 court

00:41:49.360 the

00:41:49.560 court

00:41:49.780 made

00:41:50.020 a

00:41:50.160 decision

00:41:50.600 I

00:41:50.840 don't

00:41:50.940 know

00:41:51.080 how

00:41:51.220 you

00:41:51.360 get

00:41:51.500 around

00:41:51.820 that

00:41:52.060 unless

00:41:52.340 you

00:41:52.540 say

00:41:52.800 that

00:41:53.000 there

00:41:53.180 was

00:41:53.400 fraud

00:41:53.840 in

00:41:54.040 the

00:41:54.300 inducement

00:41:55.520 there

00:41:55.760 of

00:41:55.940 some

00:41:56.160 kind

00:41:56.420 like

00:41:57.160 they

00:41:57.360 defrauded

00:41:58.200 the

00:41:58.400 first

00:41:58.640 court

00:41:58.960 with

00:41:59.140 whatever

00:41:59.420 documents

00:42:00.040 or

00:42:00.280 testimony

00:42:00.880 they

00:42:01.180 submitted

00:42:01.660 and I

00:42:02.580 mean

00:42:02.800 good luck

00:42:03.140 proving

00:42:03.440 all of

00:42:03.740 that

00:42:04.000 but

00:42:04.240 what

00:42:04.820 could

00:42:05.000 she

00:42:05.160 possibly

00:42:05.640 if

00:42:05.820 she

00:42:06.000 came

00:42:06.260 into

00:42:06.420 your

00:42:06.580 office

00:42:06.880 and

00:42:07.120 said

00:42:07.220 I

00:42:07.360 want

00:42:07.580 to

00:42:07.720 sue

00:42:07.920 them

00:42:08.220 okay

00:42:08.860 the

00:42:09.080 criminal

00:42:09.540 law

00:42:09.980 is

00:42:10.200 not

00:42:10.340 going

00:42:10.440 to

00:42:10.480 go

00:42:10.620 after

00:42:10.860 them

00:42:11.080 but

00:42:11.200 I

00:42:11.380 want

00:42:11.600 to

00:42:11.740 sue

00:42:11.900 them

00:42:12.120 for

00:42:12.280 all

00:42:12.440 the

00:42:12.580 pain

00:42:12.780 and

00:42:12.940 suffering

00:42:13.240 they

00:42:13.420 put

00:42:13.660 me

00:42:13.800 through

00:42:14.180 poor

00:42:14.820 little

00:42:15.040 me

00:42:15.360 I

00:42:15.760 didn't

00:42:15.920 do

00:42:16.060 any

00:42:16.200 of

00:42:16.300 those

00:42:16.420 terrible

00:42:16.680 things

00:42:17.120 so

00:42:17.620 not

00:42:17.840 only

00:42:18.040 did

00:42:18.240 they

00:42:18.500 kick

00:42:18.940 me

00:42:19.080 out

00:42:19.240 and

00:42:19.380 put

00:42:19.660 me

00:42:19.820 alone

00:42:20.240 but

00:42:20.700 now

00:42:20.860 they've

00:42:21.120 disparaged

00:42:21.660 me

00:42:21.860 in

00:42:22.020 this

00:42:22.260 movie

00:42:22.900 and

00:42:23.600 said

00:42:23.780 I

00:42:23.900 did

00:42:24.060 all

00:42:24.160 these

00:42:24.300 terrible

00:42:24.540 things

00:42:24.880 and

00:42:25.000 I'm

00:42:25.220 actually

00:42:25.720 a

00:42:25.900 very

00:42:26.080 sweet

00:42:26.420 person

00:42:26.860 I'm

00:42:27.120 just

00:42:27.280 a

00:42:27.560 kid

00:42:27.940 what's

00:42:29.220 the

00:42:29.420 lawsuit

00:42:29.780 she

00:42:32.180 might

00:42:32.440 have

00:42:32.680 some

00:42:41.200 is

00:42:41.360 she

00:42:41.480 going

00:42:41.620 to

00:42:41.700 have

00:42:41.860 a

00:42:41.980 lawsuit

00:42:42.260 against

00:42:42.760 Netflix

00:42:43.380 or

00:42:43.620 I

00:42:43.720 don't

00:42:43.820 know

00:42:43.960 who

00:42:44.100 put

00:42:44.320 out

00:42:44.480 this

00:42:44.700 movie

00:42:45.140 for

00:42:45.720 she

00:42:45.920 cooperated

00:42:46.560 with

00:42:46.760 it

00:42:46.980 well

00:42:48.380 then

00:42:48.820 you

00:42:49.100 know

00:42:49.320 if

00:42:49.620 there's

00:42:49.900 no

00:42:50.240 deep

00:42:50.920 pocket

00:42:51.360 so

00:42:51.640 to

00:42:51.800 speak

00:42:52.080 it

00:42:52.400 might

00:42:52.620 be

00:42:52.800 a

00:42:52.940 pure

00:42:53.100 victory

00:42:53.540 they

00:42:53.980 could

00:42:54.160 be

00:42:54.340 held

00:42:54.600 liable

00:42:55.040 but

00:42:55.340 kind

00:42:55.900 of

00:42:55.980 like

00:42:56.260 OJ

00:42:56.900 never

00:42:57.620 paid

00:42:57.940 dimes

00:42:58.520 so

00:42:58.880 what's

00:42:59.700 the

00:42:59.840 point

00:43:00.120 it

00:43:00.660 makes

00:43:01.360 it

00:43:01.480 very

00:43:01.680 complicated

00:43:02.340 well

00:43:03.540 here

00:43:03.880 I'm

00:43:04.880 more

00:43:05.040 interested

00:43:05.520 in

00:43:05.800 what

00:43:05.960 the

00:43:06.160 epilogue

00:43:06.680 is

00:43:06.960 here

00:43:07.200 oh

00:43:08.400 here's

00:43:08.980 the

00:43:09.080 epilogue

00:43:09.400 so

00:43:10.420 she

00:43:10.680 found

00:43:11.320 the

00:43:12.280 adoptive

00:43:12.820 family

00:43:13.240 to

00:43:13.560 take

00:43:13.840 care

00:43:14.080 of

00:43:14.240 her

00:43:14.480 yay

00:43:15.200 her

00:43:15.740 life

00:43:15.980 is

00:43:16.140 going

00:43:16.260 to

00:43:16.300 be

00:43:16.440 better

00:43:16.820 she

00:43:17.520 revealed

00:43:18.000 during

00:43:18.440 episode

00:43:18.840 four

00:43:19.300 of

00:43:19.780 the

00:43:19.960 curious

00:43:20.220 case

00:43:20.500 of

00:43:20.640 Natalia

00:43:21.020 Grace

00:43:21.340 Natalia

00:43:21.800 speaks

00:43:22.280 this

00:43:22.840 is

00:43:22.980 the

00:43:23.180 part

00:43:23.480 two

00:43:23.760 now

00:43:24.620 they're

00:43:24.800 saying

00:43:25.040 Natalia

00:43:25.400 who's

00:43:25.640 22

00:43:26.080 they're

00:43:26.420 saying

00:43:26.680 she

00:43:27.420 reveals

00:43:27.960 that

00:43:28.260 she

00:43:28.720 is

00:43:29.560 going

00:43:29.840 through

00:43:30.060 the

00:43:30.200 process

00:43:30.720 of

00:43:31.280 becoming

00:43:31.820 legally

00:43:32.360 adopted

00:43:32.880 by

00:43:33.540 Cynthia

00:43:34.060 and

00:43:34.380 Antoine

00:43:35.020 Mance

00:43:35.840 the

00:43:36.420 couple

00:43:36.680 who

00:43:36.860 took

00:43:37.060 her

00:43:37.200 in

00:43:37.540 quoting

00:43:37.880 here

00:43:38.100 from

00:43:38.240 a

00:43:38.360 yahoo

00:43:38.600 article

00:43:38.920 after

00:43:39.860 the

00:43:40.340 barnettes

00:43:40.920 abandoned

00:43:41.760 her

00:43:42.220 in

00:43:42.940 indiana

00:43:43.620 she

00:43:44.340 explained

00:43:44.780 that

00:43:44.960 this

00:43:45.140 will

00:43:45.300 protect

00:43:45.800 her

00:43:46.120 when

00:43:46.440 she

00:43:46.660 sues

00:43:47.220 michael

00:43:47.940 and

00:43:48.300 christine

00:43:48.960 i don't

00:43:49.500 totally

00:43:49.820 know

00:43:50.020 how

00:43:50.220 but

00:43:50.360 what

00:43:50.500 she

00:43:50.620 said

00:43:50.940 her

00:43:51.760 lawyer

00:43:52.220 told

00:43:54.040 her

00:43:54.220 was

00:43:54.400 that

00:43:54.580 the

00:43:54.760 adoption

00:43:55.220 will

00:43:55.840 kind

00:43:56.800 of

00:43:56.980 pave

00:43:57.300 the

00:43:57.480 way

00:43:57.680 for

00:43:57.860 anything

00:43:58.240 legally

00:43:58.840 you

00:43:59.540 want

00:43:59.840 to

00:44:00.020 do

00:44:00.260 in

00:44:00.560 the

00:44:00.720 future

00:44:01.120 i

00:44:01.840 don't

00:44:01.980 get

00:44:02.180 it

00:44:02.360 but

00:44:02.620 she

00:44:03.000 says

00:44:03.320 with

00:44:03.520 this

00:44:03.680 adoption

00:44:04.040 i'll

00:44:04.440 be

00:44:04.640 legally

00:44:05.020 a

00:44:05.300 part

00:44:05.520 of

00:44:05.640 the

00:44:05.760 family

00:44:06.140 so

00:44:06.720 i'll

00:44:06.880 be

00:44:07.000 protected

00:44:07.400 when

00:44:07.720 i do

00:44:08.060 the

00:44:08.260 civil

00:44:08.540 suits

00:44:08.920 against

00:44:09.240 the

00:44:09.440 barnettes

00:44:09.900 you know

00:44:10.680 abuse

00:44:11.360 neglect

00:44:12.120 a whole

00:44:12.880 bunch

00:44:13.140 of

00:44:13.240 other

00:44:13.540 stuff

00:44:13.900 that

00:44:14.420 should

00:44:14.600 not

00:44:14.800 have

00:44:14.940 happened

00:44:15.260 so

00:44:16.200 that's

00:44:16.760 what

00:44:16.900 she's

00:44:17.280 planning

00:44:17.660 on

00:44:17.880 doing

00:44:18.120 and

00:44:18.440 this

00:44:18.640 was

00:44:18.860 dated

00:44:19.140 january

00:44:19.900 3rd

00:44:21.380 well

00:44:22.060 january

00:44:24.220 15th

00:44:25.700 there's

00:44:26.560 an

00:44:26.680 update

00:44:27.100 the

00:44:27.980 update

00:44:28.440 is

00:44:29.000 Antoine

00:44:30.620 manns

00:44:31.200 her

00:44:31.500 soon to

00:44:32.040 be

00:44:32.240 adoptive

00:44:33.040 father

00:44:33.900 and

00:44:34.200 apparently

00:44:34.520 the

00:44:34.720 docuseries

00:44:35.220 here's a

00:44:35.600 spoiler

00:44:35.840 alert

00:44:36.200 spoiler

00:44:36.540 alert

00:44:36.940 docuseries

00:44:37.860 concludes

00:44:38.460 with

00:44:38.680 with

00:44:39.020 indeed

00:44:39.560 Natalia

00:44:39.920 getting

00:44:40.180 legally

00:44:40.500 adopted

00:44:40.920 by

00:44:41.620 Antoine

00:44:42.280 Manns

00:44:42.580 and his

00:44:42.840 wife

00:44:43.000 Cynthia

00:44:43.360 Antoine

00:44:45.220 Manns

00:44:45.540 is now

00:44:45.940 declaring

00:44:46.540 that he

00:44:47.580 and Cynthia

00:44:47.960 are done

00:44:48.580 with Natalia

00:44:49.440 Grace

00:44:49.900 six

00:44:51.220 months

00:44:51.980 later

00:44:52.980 listen

00:44:54.180 to this

00:44:55.240 phone

00:44:57.020 conversation

00:44:57.760 he had

00:44:58.720 with

00:44:59.340 producers

00:44:59.840 he

00:45:01.380 made

00:45:02.240 right

00:45:02.520 with

00:45:02.680 Natalia

00:45:03.080 this

00:45:03.680 girl

00:45:04.040 is

00:45:04.260 tweaking

00:45:04.740 I

00:45:06.380 feel

00:45:06.600 like

00:45:06.820 she's

00:45:07.120 the

00:45:07.220 enemy

00:45:07.520 of

00:45:07.740 the

00:45:07.820 house

00:45:08.140 if

00:45:09.760 she

00:45:09.900 raised

00:45:10.280 her

00:45:10.520 us

00:45:10.880 we

00:45:11.520 have

00:45:11.780 held

00:45:12.060 her

00:45:12.320 hostage

00:45:12.900 made

00:45:13.540 us

00:45:13.760 look

00:45:13.960 like

00:45:14.160 we're

00:45:14.420 the

00:45:14.600 enemy

00:45:15.060 Natalia

00:45:16.260 stabbing

00:45:17.020 her

00:45:17.200 family

00:45:17.600 in the

00:45:17.920 back

00:45:18.340 over

00:45:19.220 at

00:45:19.420 him

00:45:19.640 quite

00:45:19.960 fly

00:45:20.500 she's

00:45:21.420 done

00:45:21.600 other

00:45:21.860 things

00:45:22.180 too

00:45:22.440 but

00:45:23.000 this

00:45:23.460 was

00:45:24.000 a

00:45:24.180 new

00:45:24.380 loan

00:45:24.680 Natalia

00:45:25.460 does

00:45:25.880 not

00:45:26.160 have

00:45:26.660 emotions

00:45:27.460 but

00:45:27.700 does

00:45:28.000 what

00:45:28.300 are

00:45:28.440 you

00:45:28.640 we're

00:45:30.000 done

00:45:30.260 we're

00:45:30.960 done

00:45:31.320 with

00:45:31.520 it

00:45:31.840 OMG

00:45:36.620 that's

00:45:38.240 the new

00:45:38.560 adoptive

00:45:39.040 family

00:45:39.460 so

00:45:41.040 I

00:45:42.180 I have

00:45:42.840 to credit

00:45:43.240 the producers

00:45:43.780 on just

00:45:44.200 an unbelievable

00:45:45.000 this is

00:45:45.760 you have

00:45:46.240 to watch

00:45:46.600 the whole

00:45:46.900 thing

00:45:47.140 I want

00:45:47.740 to have

00:45:47.980 them on

00:45:48.260 the show

00:45:48.520 to discuss

00:45:49.000 this

00:45:49.220 but

00:45:49.460 how now

00:45:52.180 is she

00:45:52.600 ever going

00:45:53.220 to sue

00:45:53.680 the first

00:45:54.300 family

00:45:54.900 for

00:45:56.060 all these

00:45:57.120 terrible

00:45:57.780 things

00:45:58.320 and saying

00:45:58.780 the awful

00:45:59.340 things

00:45:59.720 about her

00:46:00.180 when the

00:46:00.880 new

00:46:01.160 family

00:46:01.700 Jonna

00:46:02.120 feels

00:46:02.520 exactly

00:46:03.120 the same

00:46:03.700 way

00:46:04.020 from the

00:46:04.440 sound

00:46:04.680 of it

00:46:04.980 and also

00:46:05.880 feels

00:46:06.360 like

00:46:06.960 they've

00:46:07.440 been

00:46:07.620 victimized

00:46:08.260 and she

00:46:08.940 is

00:46:09.700 the abuser

00:46:10.680 yeah

00:46:12.440 I think

00:46:12.960 I think

00:46:13.280 Natalia

00:46:13.780 might need

00:46:14.660 a psyche

00:46:15.600 vow

00:46:16.020 perhaps we

00:46:16.940 should start

00:46:17.520 there

00:46:17.900 before

00:46:18.380 anybody

00:46:19.240 decides to

00:46:20.260 file a

00:46:20.700 civil suit

00:46:21.220 on her

00:46:21.640 this is the

00:46:22.220 theme of our

00:46:22.560 legal cases

00:46:23.160 so far

00:46:23.640 this is the

00:46:24.160 theme of our

00:46:24.660 cases

00:46:25.020 and also

00:46:29.260 both cases

00:46:29.800 with like

00:46:30.160 a question

00:46:30.860 of identity

00:46:31.540 and like

00:46:32.060 who we're

00:46:32.440 really dealing

00:46:33.000 with here

00:46:33.380 right

00:46:33.620 is Nicholas

00:46:34.180 Rossi

00:46:35.060 actually

00:46:35.460 Arthur

00:46:35.800 Knight

00:46:36.120 is Natalia

00:46:37.220 Grace

00:46:37.680 a child

00:46:39.140 or an

00:46:39.820 adult

00:46:40.440 I mean

00:46:41.580 these are

00:46:41.900 some tricky

00:46:42.600 issues

00:46:43.220 but I

00:46:44.120 don't

00:46:44.340 does the

00:46:45.000 new

00:46:45.280 family's

00:46:45.860 testimonial

00:46:46.720 help

00:46:47.700 the old

00:46:48.460 family

00:46:48.880 in her

00:46:49.220 planned

00:46:49.540 civil suit

00:46:50.140 at all

00:46:50.620 Mark

00:46:50.940 look

00:46:52.240 forget the

00:46:53.500 producers

00:46:54.020 what you

00:46:54.560 want

00:46:54.900 is whoever

00:46:55.620 the lawyer

00:46:56.360 is

00:46:56.760 the claims

00:46:57.300 are going

00:46:57.600 to take

00:46:57.960 this lawsuit

00:46:58.660 that's who

00:46:59.280 I want

00:46:59.680 to talk

00:47:00.500 to because

00:47:01.080 I want

00:47:01.860 to understand

00:47:02.560 what they

00:47:03.140 think their

00:47:03.680 end game

00:47:04.100 is and why

00:47:04.800 they have

00:47:05.280 this as

00:47:06.220 part of

00:47:06.600 their

00:47:06.740 practice

00:47:07.320 what do

00:47:08.800 you mean

00:47:09.020 I can

00:47:09.700 make the

00:47:10.080 case for

00:47:11.020 her

00:47:11.220 I was

00:47:12.420 six to

00:47:13.760 eight

00:47:14.080 when I

00:47:14.640 was adopted

00:47:15.260 by this

00:47:15.740 family

00:47:16.120 which in

00:47:16.480 the adoption

00:47:16.920 would have

00:47:17.500 had to

00:47:18.000 promise

00:47:18.280 there's an

00:47:18.580 implicit

00:47:19.080 covenant

00:47:19.480 to take

00:47:20.340 good care

00:47:20.860 of me

00:47:21.140 until the

00:47:21.520 age of

00:47:21.780 majority

00:47:22.140 or at

00:47:22.420 least

00:47:22.560 for the

00:47:22.900 time

00:47:23.100 being

00:47:23.420 and the

00:47:24.700 law

00:47:24.880 requires

00:47:25.340 it of

00:47:25.600 them

00:47:25.860 and instead

00:47:27.000 when I

00:47:27.980 was

00:47:28.220 I'll get

00:47:29.100 the exact

00:47:29.520 timing

00:47:29.860 here

00:47:30.100 they adopted

00:47:30.640 her

00:47:30.980 in 2010

00:47:32.660 so she

00:47:34.380 was

00:47:35.020 they said

00:47:36.560 21 but

00:47:37.860 she must

00:47:38.640 have been

00:47:39.020 eight I

00:47:39.840 think six

00:47:40.320 or eight

00:47:40.660 and within

00:47:42.160 a couple

00:47:42.580 of years

00:47:43.180 they abandoned

00:47:44.460 her alone

00:47:45.180 in her own

00:47:45.580 apartment by

00:47:46.120 any measure

00:47:46.680 she was a

00:47:47.160 child if

00:47:47.940 her birth date

00:47:48.760 is correct

00:47:49.420 and that

00:47:50.440 would be

00:47:50.760 illegal

00:47:51.160 so they

00:47:52.440 abandoned

00:47:53.040 me even

00:47:53.840 though I

00:47:54.160 was not

00:47:55.420 a nice

00:47:55.800 child under

00:47:57.280 their version

00:47:58.000 you can't

00:47:58.960 just abandon

00:47:59.680 me that's

00:48:00.840 there are

00:48:01.380 parents everywhere

00:48:02.040 who have

00:48:02.560 children who

00:48:03.440 they know

00:48:04.180 children who

00:48:04.600 they know

00:48:04.860 are sociopaths

00:48:05.840 or actual

00:48:06.400 sociopaths who

00:48:06.900 are torturing

00:48:07.660 the family

00:48:08.560 cat it's

00:48:09.300 sick I've

00:48:09.840 interviewed

00:48:10.060 these parents

00:48:10.580 you can't

00:48:11.980 just dump

00:48:12.820 them in

00:48:13.340 an apartment

00:48:13.900 and wash

00:48:15.140 your hands

00:48:15.620 of them

00:48:16.060 all of

00:48:19.400 that is

00:48:19.780 against the

00:48:20.360 backdrop

00:48:20.760 that we

00:48:21.320 believe that

00:48:22.340 the supposed

00:48:23.760 DNA test

00:48:24.960 that was

00:48:25.360 taken shows

00:48:26.260 the true

00:48:26.800 age I'm

00:48:28.020 not so sure

00:48:28.780 that I'm

00:48:29.240 buying anything

00:48:30.540 that's being

00:48:31.060 sold here

00:48:31.740 given that

00:48:32.300 we've now

00:48:32.800 got two

00:48:33.540 different

00:48:34.260 families who

00:48:35.000 come back

00:48:35.500 and apparently

00:48:36.800 have lived

00:48:37.500 and experienced

00:48:38.540 this so I'm

00:48:40.380 a little I'm

00:48:41.060 a little

00:48:41.380 cynical

00:48:41.920 that's a

00:48:43.680 good point

00:48:44.160 maybe we're

00:48:44.840 putting too

00:48:45.180 much stock

00:48:45.700 in what the

00:48:46.060 producers tell

00:48:46.660 us is a

00:48:47.120 legit DNA

00:48:48.080 test

00:48:49.220 because you

00:48:50.780 know they're

00:48:51.060 making TV

00:48:51.640 one never

00:48:52.320 knows but if

00:48:53.560 she actually

00:48:54.060 was a child

00:48:55.000 I don't know

00:48:55.640 I think she

00:48:56.520 would probably

00:48:56.940 have to prove

00:48:57.440 that they

00:48:57.780 didn't have a

00:48:58.800 good faith

00:48:59.120 belief she

00:48:59.600 wasn't

00:48:59.940 anyway the

00:49:00.340 whole thing

00:49:00.760 is the

00:49:01.080 most bizarre

00:49:02.280 her bad

00:49:03.020 behavior alleged

00:49:04.000 is well

00:49:04.680 documented in

00:49:05.440 season one

00:49:05.900 too it went

00:49:06.520 well beyond

00:49:07.180 the family

00:49:08.380 when they put

00:49:08.940 her in that

00:49:09.240 apartment some

00:49:09.800 of the things

00:49:10.160 that she was

00:49:10.500 allegedly doing

00:49:11.220 to the

00:49:12.000 neighbors

00:49:12.440 like men

00:49:13.600 it's dark

00:49:14.900 it's dark

00:49:15.500 stuff and it

00:49:15.920 does not sound

00:49:16.380 like the

00:49:16.620 behavior of

00:49:17.540 someone who's

00:49:18.020 in the single

00:49:18.420 digits okay

00:49:19.640 anyway to be

00:49:20.780 continued and I

00:49:21.540 recommend to

00:49:21.940 everybody to

00:49:22.980 watch the

00:49:23.960 series you

00:49:24.660 won't be

00:49:24.980 sorry

00:49:25.220 so Gypsy

00:49:30.020 Rose Blanchard

00:49:31.820 is now

00:49:33.480 an adult

00:49:36.140 but she

00:49:38.000 was one of

00:49:38.680 those children

00:49:39.380 born to a

00:49:40.080 mother who

00:49:40.500 has what we

00:49:41.160 used to

00:49:41.480 call

00:49:41.600 Munchausen's

00:49:42.300 by proxy

00:49:42.900 where she's

00:49:45.000 inventing

00:49:45.620 illnesses that

00:49:46.680 don't exist in

00:49:47.360 the child for

00:49:48.060 attention or for

00:49:49.140 whatever sick

00:49:49.860 reason and she

00:49:51.120 put Gypsy Rose

00:49:52.000 in a wheelchair

00:49:52.740 and she said

00:49:53.960 Gypsy Rose had

00:49:55.060 leukemia she

00:49:56.680 forced her to

00:49:57.280 use an oxygen

00:49:58.340 tank even though

00:49:59.320 she didn't need

00:49:59.880 any of that she

00:50:01.000 said Gypsy Rose

00:50:01.880 had muscular

00:50:02.560 dystrophy it's

00:50:04.220 amazing that the

00:50:05.120 hospital systems

00:50:06.060 did not catch

00:50:06.720 this but Gypsy

00:50:08.320 Rose eventually

00:50:10.020 found a

00:50:11.080 boyfriend on a

00:50:12.720 Christian dating

00:50:13.980 website and

00:50:15.680 his name I

00:50:16.380 forgive me on

00:50:16.980 the pronunciation

00:50:17.420 but I think

00:50:18.020 it's Nick

00:50:18.680 Godejohn and

00:50:20.820 Nick Godejohn her

00:50:22.920 boyfriend quote

00:50:23.800 unquote it's not

00:50:24.920 like I don't think

00:50:25.760 they really knew

00:50:26.180 each other that

00:50:26.980 well she convinced

00:50:28.820 him to murder

00:50:29.520 her mom so they

00:50:31.320 worked together on

00:50:32.180 it he went into

00:50:33.680 their house one

00:50:34.240 night while the

00:50:35.040 mother Dee Dee

00:50:35.940 was sleeping and

00:50:37.280 he stabbed her

00:50:37.960 14 times to

00:50:38.900 death so that's

00:50:40.760 first degree murder

00:50:41.600 Gypsy Rose it was

00:50:43.100 very obvious these

00:50:43.820 two did it Gypsy

00:50:44.600 Rose negotiated a

00:50:45.580 plea where she

00:50:46.420 copped to the

00:50:47.800 crime they gave

00:50:48.540 her 10 years in

00:50:49.220 prison she got she

00:50:49.960 just got out this

00:50:50.740 month after serving

00:50:51.740 seven but Nick

00:50:53.520 Godejohn was sent

00:50:55.200 to prison for the

00:50:55.860 rest of his life

00:50:56.460 without the

00:50:56.840 possibility of

00:50:57.480 parole he was

00:50:59.440 offered a deal I

00:51:00.320 don't know what it

00:51:00.720 was it was better

00:51:01.300 than what he got and

00:51:02.400 he turned it down

00:51:03.080 preferring to take

00:51:03.980 his chances with

00:51:04.580 the jury well that

00:51:05.820 did not work out

00:51:06.860 now Gypsy Rose is

00:51:09.820 free she served her

00:51:11.820 time she's going on

00:51:13.420 the media tour here's

00:51:15.020 a little bit of her

00:51:15.900 on the view in

00:51:18.580 SOT 3 the

00:51:20.200 anniversary of the

00:51:21.240 crime is actually the

00:51:22.140 hardest day of the

00:51:22.900 year do you have

00:51:23.720 you're going through

00:51:24.460 psychotherapy yes I

00:51:25.700 am I am and so

00:51:27.240 what I do on the

00:51:28.000 anniversary is I

00:51:29.280 play one of her

00:51:29.980 favorite songs and I

00:51:31.500 allow myself that

00:51:32.720 time to cry and I

00:51:34.440 mean ball cry because

00:51:37.420 I feel like I can't

00:51:38.700 do it in front of

00:51:39.280 other people because

00:51:40.020 I'm afraid of being

00:51:40.720 judged for it because

00:51:41.640 they're probably going

00:51:42.100 to make some kind of

00:51:43.040 snarky comment like

00:51:44.000 well you killed her

00:51:44.680 but I'm like you know

00:51:46.200 she was my mom and I

00:51:47.740 miss her even though

00:51:48.840 everything she that she

00:51:50.140 did to me she was

00:51:50.940 still my mother I

00:51:51.920 spent 24 years of my

00:51:53.840 life with her okay so

00:51:55.740 there she is out of

00:51:58.240 prison but the problem

00:51:59.400 in this case is that

00:52:00.460 the co-defendant is

00:52:01.580 still in prison and

00:52:03.060 seeking a new trial

00:52:04.700 and what he's saying

00:52:06.200 is that his he had

00:52:09.180 ineffective assistance

00:52:10.040 of counsel because his

00:52:12.700 lawyer did not find a

00:52:17.240 qualified neuropsychologist

00:52:19.280 specializing in autism

00:52:21.180 spectrum disorder to

00:52:23.000 support the diminished

00:52:24.360 capacity defense of

00:52:26.940 Godijan of Nick Godijan of

00:52:29.380 whom we have some video

00:52:30.340 you can see it here

00:52:31.340 basically it was an

00:52:33.900 angel and a devil I

00:52:36.180 actually had two

00:52:37.020 different ones speaking

00:52:38.080 to me they both said

00:52:38.820 one thing and left the

00:52:41.480 decision left to me at

00:52:42.960 that time devil what it

00:52:44.780 ended up telling me was

00:52:46.080 this bitch is dead that's

00:52:49.420 all it said this bitch is

00:52:50.580 dead basically once I

00:52:53.260 heard that

00:52:55.360 for some darn reason I

00:53:01.320 don't know why it

00:53:02.560 inflamed the emotion of

00:53:07.080 it in rage but it did

00:53:09.000 inflamed emotion of

00:53:10.600 rage so I ended up

00:53:12.040 whispering to gypsy get

00:53:13.640 in the bathroom because I

00:53:14.560 just want to get this

00:53:15.080 over with

00:53:15.640 I mean you can see this

00:53:18.640 guy's not you know not

00:53:20.820 firing on all cylinders

00:53:21.760 necessarily so anyway

00:53:23.500 he's claiming he should

00:53:24.760 have had a lawyer argue

00:53:25.540 that and should have put

00:53:26.560 on a qualified expert to

00:53:27.840 tell the jury this guy's

00:53:29.360 not of adequate mental

00:53:30.580 capacity to be even

00:53:31.540 sitting here and he

00:53:32.580 belongs in a mental

00:53:33.220 facility not jail for the

00:53:34.560 rest of his life without

00:53:35.320 parole Mark could he

00:53:37.840 could he make the case

00:53:38.640 they're making they're

00:53:40.200 making the case now

00:53:41.360 basically of ineffective

00:53:43.180 assistance of counsel

00:53:44.420 and it's tough so it's a

00:53:47.440 tough claim but they

00:53:49.960 they may get some

00:53:50.920 traction I mean as you

00:53:52.420 just indicated it's

00:53:54.440 obvious that there is

00:53:55.800 some you know this is a

00:53:57.740 jurisdiction that still

00:53:58.860 has diminished capacity

00:54:00.340 here in California we

00:54:02.080 eliminated it and so what

00:54:04.220 diminished capacity is is

00:54:05.700 you're basically talking

00:54:06.720 about the ability to form

00:54:08.100 a mens rea and you know

00:54:10.680 you feel for this guy

00:54:11.780 because he turned down an

00:54:13.620 offer as you had

00:54:14.560 indicated that was better

00:54:15.940 than what ended up

00:54:17.460 happening to him which

00:54:18.540 is often the case you

00:54:19.680 get the trial penalty if

00:54:21.440 you go and lose I I

00:54:23.980 I suppose that somebody

00:54:27.100 at some point may decide

00:54:30.460 that this guy probably

00:54:32.820 should have had the

00:54:35.160 benefit of some other

00:54:36.820 expert at his disposal

00:54:39.220 but this is a story often

00:54:40.760 told unfortunately

00:54:41.980 I don't know John I mean

00:54:44.600 like does it does it affect

00:54:45.860 a court to see obviously

00:54:47.440 this I don't know whether

00:54:49.100 he's just I don't know

00:54:51.120 what's wrong with him he

00:54:51.840 doesn't sound totally

00:54:52.580 right but the autism

00:54:54.500 thing how everybody knows

00:54:56.180 somebody with autism or

00:54:57.280 has a kid with autism it

00:54:58.280 doesn't make you murder it

00:54:59.620 doesn't make you easily

00:55:00.540 manipulatable into murder

00:55:02.480 so I'm not sure like how

00:55:04.360 does the court factor that

00:55:05.320 in in deciding whether this

00:55:06.800 expert not testifying

00:55:08.240 rendered counsel ineffective

00:55:09.840 yeah and I look at it this

00:55:12.520 way not finding an expert

00:55:15.580 to say that is different

00:55:17.160 from not looking for an

00:55:19.600 expert to say that so let's

00:55:21.680 suppose his defense

00:55:22.500 counsel did look for an

00:55:24.640 expert to say that and he

00:55:26.160 interviewed 10 and 10 said

00:55:27.700 I can't say that now what

00:55:30.040 do you do right so now you

00:55:31.360 now maybe you have to change

00:55:32.520 your defense strategy maybe

00:55:34.300 you talk to your client and

00:55:35.380 say you know if you're

00:55:36.260 competent enough to

00:55:37.020 understand what I'm saying

00:55:37.920 you need to take a deal

00:55:39.180 when the client says no

00:55:40.200 deal how are you

00:55:41.820 incompetent now if you

00:55:43.000 don't bother looking and

00:55:44.700 you have a client who

00:55:45.660 clearly might have some

00:55:46.800 mental infirmity and you

00:55:48.700 don't look okay perhaps

00:55:51.660 there is some there there

00:55:52.740 in the incompetence

00:55:53.980 argument but dang I would

00:55:56.480 think that this person

00:55:57.940 probably had to take the

00:55:59.920 stand in his trial to

00:56:01.220 explain himself I mean I'm

00:56:03.520 thinking and and if he did

00:56:05.600 jurors would have you know

00:56:07.420 a lot to chew on listening

00:56:09.380 to him testify if he

00:56:10.660 sounds much like he did in

00:56:12.400 that clip but maybe he

00:56:13.440 didn't take the stand I

00:56:14.300 mean it's quite possible he

00:56:15.060 didn't I don't know but

00:56:16.540 yeah I think the other

00:56:18.340 thing that really makes you

00:56:19.620 think is okay so the

00:56:20.940 person who planned and

00:56:22.300 plotted and hired me walks

00:56:24.420 in seven years and I'm

00:56:26.320 doing life you know on the

00:56:27.960 one hand it makes sense

00:56:28.920 because you're a hit man and

00:56:30.040 you should do life you

00:56:30.880 weren't the one who was

00:56:31.640 abused for your entire life

00:56:33.760 and on the other hand there

00:56:35.000 is something that's a

00:56:35.780 little untoward about it

00:56:36.760 when he was hired by

00:56:39.320 somebody and and she got

00:56:40.820 so little time you know

00:56:43.600 it's an interesting point

00:56:44.920 Johnna makes about the

00:56:46.700 the person who gets hired

00:56:48.440 versus the person who's

00:56:50.140 actually the subject of

00:56:52.660 abuse because I've seen

00:56:54.680 prosecutors take completely

00:56:56.680 different positions on that

00:56:59.600 sometimes they they'll try to

00:57:01.900 turn the person who

00:57:03.020 actually does the actual

00:57:04.400 killing against who hired

00:57:06.380 them and with the

00:57:07.840 justification that that

00:57:09.740 that's the person who's

00:57:11.020 actually more culpable as

00:57:12.780 opposed to that of the what

00:57:14.680 happened here which is the

00:57:16.080 person who was a victim

00:57:17.220 obviously the only reason

00:57:18.240 they didn't do that Mark is

00:57:19.260 because Gypsy Rose was

00:57:20.400 abused by this woman for all

00:57:21.980 this time so they're not

00:57:23.200 looking at her the way they

00:57:24.280 look at a regular daughter

00:57:25.620 who took a hit out on her

00:57:26.820 mom but shouldn't that abuse

00:57:28.940 factor in for him as well

00:57:31.260 well I I think yes and I'll

00:57:34.640 tell you one of the I guess

00:57:36.220 I step back and take more of

00:57:38.620 a macro look one of the

00:57:40.160 things when you're talking

00:57:41.100 whether it's diminished

00:57:42.060 capacity which is now outlawed

00:57:44.520 in California or it's one of

00:57:46.080 these these men's rea

00:57:47.480 defenses generally what you're

00:57:49.380 looking for in a criminal case

00:57:52.160 is some vehicle whether it's

00:57:54.760 diminished capacity whether it's

00:57:56.400 imperfect self-defense you're

00:57:58.000 looking for something to give

00:57:59.500 a jury the ability to say we

00:58:02.220 understand we don't we don't

00:58:04.500 approve of this but we get why

00:58:07.780 you did it that you're trying

00:58:09.300 to just give them a vehicle to

00:58:11.840 at least hear you out hear your

00:58:15.100 client out have some empathy for

00:58:16.920 your client and give them and

00:58:18.340 reduce the idea of malice which

00:58:20.840 is required for murder and

00:58:22.300 that's like what's what's

00:58:24.000 happening here you're trying to

00:58:25.200 find a vehicle now by using

00:58:27.660 stepping back and saying it was

00:58:29.140 ineffective assistance of

00:58:31.240 counsel but trying to find a

00:58:32.640 vehicle to get to the result

00:58:34.200 which is that he shouldn't be in

00:58:36.040 for the rest of his life so

00:58:38.320 it's like it's not really they

00:58:40.480 may not be really finding

00:58:41.520 ineffective assistance of

00:58:42.460 counsel as opposed to an

00:58:43.540 excuse to give this guy

00:58:45.520 another shot at getting out

00:58:47.420 earlier getting into a mental

00:58:48.520 facility yeah well here's the

00:58:50.680 thing it feels very unfair

00:58:51.880 because now this gypsy rose is

00:58:53.600 like a celebrity she's

00:58:54.680 everywhere and this guy who

00:58:57.180 really had nothing to do it

00:58:58.160 until she pulled him in and

00:58:59.840 asked him to do this deed he's

00:59:02.260 gonna be he's never gonna see

00:59:03.360 daylight again she got married

00:59:06.540 right after she got out of

00:59:08.580 prison she this guy his name is

00:59:11.560 Ryan Ryan Anderson he watched

00:59:14.160 the 2017 HBO documentary about

00:59:16.760 gypsy's case mommy dead and

00:59:19.320 dearest and wrote her a letter in

00:59:21.740 2020 the relationship developed

00:59:23.620 from there this is here he is

00:59:24.920 developed from there and they

00:59:26.840 married two years later so I

00:59:28.920 guess they got married while she

00:59:29.640 was still in church and it's

00:59:32.780 very strange I mean I'll just

00:59:34.180 tell you this she apparently he

00:59:37.740 posted something on Instagram and

00:59:39.100 got some blowback as he married

00:59:40.360 gypsy and she's a she's a she's

00:59:42.480 you know convicted murderer and

00:59:45.700 she posted don't listen to the

00:59:49.160 haters we don't owe anyone

00:59:51.160 anything and then she writes

00:59:53.380 besides they jealous because you

00:59:56.180 are rocking my world every night

00:59:57.920 yeah I said it the D is fire

01:00:00.840 the D and by the way yeah but oh

01:00:07.460 God here she is on camera

01:00:09.500 defending her new husband against

01:00:11.060 some of the online blowback he's

01:00:12.640 getting is you know these two are

01:00:14.060 like celebrities now so for Ryan how

01:00:17.480 are you dealing with the newfound

01:00:18.840 fame and being in the spotlight I

01:00:20.780 knew who I married she was like are

01:00:22.660 you sure are you sure and of course

01:00:23.860 I was I mean I'm in love with this

01:00:25.420 girl well you're already clapping

01:00:26.460 back on social media I've seen

01:00:28.420 those uh I do believe y'all had some

01:00:31.340 spicy things to say to each other

01:00:33.060 well we're new like you know I mean

01:00:37.080 we're married what's hard for me is

01:00:39.540 watching you know the negative

01:00:41.220 comments towards him I can handle

01:00:43.320 negative comments towards me because

01:00:44.840 I don't care but when it's about

01:00:46.480 somebody that I love I want to clap

01:00:48.700 back and that was my you know clap

01:00:50.920 back a little bit I'm gonna come to

01:00:53.260 his defense he's my man like that's

01:00:55.740 what wives do yeah plus the D is fire

01:00:59.420 so

01:00:59.940 I knew you were gonna work that in

01:01:04.540 one more time I'm sorry but come on

01:01:07.480 the poor kid is sitting in jail I mean

01:01:09.520 I realize he committed a murder like

01:01:11.180 the mother doesn't sound like she was

01:01:12.700 a good person I'm not saying she

01:01:13.960 deserved to be murdered but she was

01:01:15.180 slowly murdering Gypsy Rose I don't

01:01:17.180 understand why both of these people

01:01:18.680 didn't get a shorter sentence

01:01:20.020 yeah you know there is there is

01:01:23.160 something to be said and we're

01:01:24.320 representing the Menendez brothers I

01:01:26.080 will tell you there is an evolution

01:01:28.560 cultural evolution that has taken

01:01:30.780 place in the last decades so you know

01:01:34.820 people understand more today and

01:01:36.620 looking through the prison today than

01:01:38.120 they did in real time

01:01:39.260 well I don't think I don't you know

01:01:42.960 if you go with the odds he's not

01:01:44.920 getting out of jail because courts

01:01:46.340 don't like appellate courts don't

01:01:47.520 like ineffective assistance of

01:01:48.780 counsel defenses and it doesn't sound

01:01:51.220 like he's raising any new facts that

01:01:53.580 you didn't call the expert I don't

01:01:54.940 I don't like his odds although I

01:01:56.860 don't he doesn't seem like he should

01:01:57.920 be a free man to me right now get the

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01:02:58.460 let's move on to Jennifer Doulos I don't know

01:03:06.900 if you guys have been following this case

01:03:08.920 over the years but this happened in

01:03:10.920 Connecticut yeah and it's very dark this

01:03:14.800 this guy marries Jennifer Farber Doulos and

01:03:19.280 he allegedly killed her he allegedly was

01:03:21.820 having an affair on her his name is Fotis Doulos

01:03:24.780 he was cheating on her and his wife who's

01:03:28.260 the mother of five they've had like the

01:03:30.420 perfect life here in Connecticut this

01:03:31.900 beautiful home all the nice cars that this

01:03:35.360 gorgeous woman who everybody loved the

01:03:38.160 husband had a good job look at these five

01:03:40.220 kids and she never reappeared one day she

01:03:46.040 dropped the kids off at school never to be

01:03:49.320 seen or heard from again while they were in

01:03:51.180 the middle of a contentious divorce and he

01:03:54.180 was living with another woman and they

01:03:58.340 definitely believed he did it and he

01:03:59.840 ultimately got charged with it and then he

01:04:02.160 killed himself he died by suicide well his

01:04:05.600 lover is now on trial in Connecticut I see

01:04:09.160 it on the local news every night his

01:04:11.320 alleged lover Michelle Traconis is on trial

01:04:15.580 right now being accused of conspiracy to

01:04:19.020 commit murder evidence tampering and

01:04:21.200 hindering prosecution she's pleaded not

01:04:23.140 guilty she says she doesn't know what

01:04:25.000 happened to Jennifer or where her body

01:04:26.720 might be this is part of the problem

01:04:28.880 Jonna here she is that they don't

01:04:32.200 actually have a body though they were

01:04:34.860 getting ready to charge I mean they did

01:04:36.480 charge the husband before he died by

01:04:38.000 suicide with the murder so they clearly

01:04:39.760 think they can make this murder case

01:04:41.220 first against him and now against her

01:04:43.180 even without a body so how do you like

01:04:45.420 their odds not very good I mean this is a

01:04:48.600 strange case because they have never proved

01:04:52.020 murder right we know we at the wall they

01:04:55.080 presumed Jennifer Dulo's dead so we know

01:04:57.840 that she is technically she's no longer

01:04:59.960 alive like they can't say that oh she's

01:05:01.500 gonna come walking through the courtroom she's

01:05:02.960 declared dead but we don't know whether it was

01:05:05.660 murder manslaughter self-defense some sort

01:05:09.600 of accident and before the prosecution can

01:05:12.020 prove that she conspired to commit a murder

01:05:15.120 they first need to prove a murder they

01:05:18.420 have to do that without a body and

01:05:20.560 without a main defendant which was her

01:05:23.320 husband because he is also dead so this

01:05:26.040 really is going to be a trial within a

01:05:28.620 trial and the defense is going to have to

01:05:30.100 make damn sure that the jury realizes she's

01:05:33.120 not on trial for the murder she is on trial

01:05:36.220 for conspiring with the person who

01:05:37.900 allegedly committed the murder who's now

01:05:39.520 dead I mean you got to be you kind of have

01:05:41.900 to take an exacto knife to the evidence when

01:05:44.280 you're representing her in this case to the

01:05:46.780 jury and I do think it's going to be

01:05:48.200 difficult though for the prosecution to do

01:05:50.600 that and I I watched the defense when they

01:05:52.740 were making their pre-trial motions they're

01:05:54.740 on top of it they're on their game so it

01:05:58.040 isn't going to be an easy an easy time for

01:06:00.980 the prosecution in this case so far Mark

01:06:03.400 they've been showing a lot of blood on the

01:06:06.920 husband's car and her I think it was on the

01:06:09.440 decedent's car the alleged decedent the

01:06:11.260 alleged victim Jennifer blood spatter there

01:06:14.560 and around the garage area where he

01:06:16.620 allegedly confronted her and that their

01:06:19.260 theory is that the girlfriend Michelle

01:06:21.220 Draconis who's now on trial was driving

01:06:23.220 around with him while he was disposing of

01:06:26.180 various evidence connected to his wife so

01:06:28.460 that she knew very well what he had done

01:06:30.720 you know it's an interesting case and I in

01:06:34.900 the interest of full disclosure I have a

01:06:37.480 fairly good insight into it having talked

01:06:42.380 with a number of the people who are

01:06:43.960 involved repeatedly and I will tell you

01:06:46.680 that I don't understand the process the

01:06:50.220 prosecution case here I know that that the

01:06:53.040 theory as you articulated it that she's

01:06:55.880 apparently present at various locations I

01:07:00.340 don't I don't get it I don't understand a

01:07:02.920 lot of the the judges overruled their junk

01:07:05.720 science objections of defenses junk science

01:07:09.220 objections but to me most of what the

01:07:11.700 blood evidence in so far yeah the does not

01:07:15.040 appear to be peer-reviewed the type of

01:07:17.800 stuff that you would normally allow in in a

01:07:20.360 criminal case I I think it's a challenging

01:07:23.260 case for the prosecution I don't see how

01:07:25.320 they make this case frankly here is Michelle

01:07:28.860 Draconis one month less than a month after

01:07:31.780 Jennifer went missing being interrogated by

01:07:34.240 police the date is June 6 2019 watch this

01:07:37.220 Jennifer we think you have information

01:07:41.980 I can walk the whole world with you if you want

01:07:45.900 I can take you to like the motor please I can

01:07:49.920 walk I can spend a month with you guys I can do

01:07:54.080 whatever you want but I didn't do

01:07:56.180 she's emotional she's a beautiful woman

01:08:01.280 she's the alleged affair partner I mean the jury is

01:08:03.860 not going to like this woman if they choose to put

01:08:05.680 her on the stand right it's like she's here

01:08:08.440 Jennifer's gone so what do you do do you is it is

01:08:12.120 this the case given the strength that you guys

01:08:14.120 describe with the defense's case that you take that

01:08:16.700 risk I just think you have to wait and see I mean

01:08:20.180 that's I didn't mean to step on John but they you know

01:08:23.560 the hardest decision you'll ever make and the last

01:08:26.320 decision you'll ever make in any criminal defense

01:08:28.600 case is whether put your client on you and you never

01:08:31.280 make that at least I don't I've never made that decision

01:08:34.220 until I see how the case unfolds what do you think

01:08:37.900 John it's got it's got reasonable doubt written all

01:08:40.600 over it so she might not have to take the stand one of

01:08:43.340 the interesting things from my perspective is you know why

01:08:46.960 did they offer her like an accessory after the fact that

01:08:49.800 maybe she had nothing to do with whatever happened to

01:08:52.520 Jennifer Dulos except that she was riding shotgun when

01:08:55.320 he was disposing of all the you know the bags full of bloody

01:08:58.940 whatever that doesn't make her a co-conspirator that might make

01:09:02.940 her an accessory after the fact or it might make her absolutely

01:09:05.540 nothing and how do we know that if he was such a bad guy to

01:09:08.400 Jennifer Dulos and I think there's ample evidence of

01:09:11.320 that how do we know that she wasn't under his thumb too how do

01:09:14.180 we know that he didn't threaten her and that is something

01:09:17.300 she'd have to come forward and testify about if that were the

01:09:19.880 case and that's why she was riding shotgun when he was getting

01:09:22.740 rid of the evidence so I agree with Mark they're gonna have to

01:09:26.240 wait and see just um whether or not they're gonna have to put

01:09:29.500 her on the stand depending on what all comes in in the

01:09:31.980 prosecution's convoluted case okay last one last but not least

01:09:37.320 uh Daniel Penny he's the guy former Marine if memory serves that

01:09:43.080 um wound up taking the life though it was inadvertent of this

01:09:48.700 uh homeless guy in New York uh Daniel Penny and uh so Daniel I

01:09:55.940 always screw this up Daniel Penny is the defendant and uh

01:09:59.460 Jordan Neely is the man who died so Daniel Penny was on the

01:10:03.140 subway Jordan Neely was behaving very badly on the subway was

01:10:07.080 threatening passengers this has been a pattern for him he had

01:10:09.560 hurt a bunch of people previously on the subway and Daniel

01:10:12.700 Penny was ultimately charged with secondary manslaughter because he

01:10:16.600 got this guy in a chokehold here you see the video with the

01:10:19.840 assistance of some other passengers and Neely died he died and

01:10:26.340 you know the left took saw a political opportunity with this

01:10:29.380 case and tried to blow it into a race thing because the

01:10:32.560 defendants now white and the decedents black there's absolutely

01:10:36.400 no evidence that had anything to do with race whatsoever not a

01:10:38.700 comment not a history nothing but this guy got charged so Daniel

01:10:43.400 Penny got charged second-degree manslaughter and moved and also

01:10:46.640 criminally negligent homicide in connection with Neely's death and

01:10:50.120 moved to dismiss it and that motion has officially been denied he will

01:10:56.220 go to trial um at some point no earlier than the fall we're told and I

01:11:02.180 wonder whether this there's any hope of justice being done here whether this

01:11:10.260 case ought to see its way in front of a jury and how you think a New York jury

01:11:14.100 will react to this John I'll ask you as somebody who's in the area you know it's

01:11:19.280 sad to say but I think judges today have lost their balls and I say that

01:11:24.940 because this was an opportunity for this judge to at least maybe even split the

01:11:29.040 baby Megan maybe get rid of the manslaughter that the C felony and leave

01:11:33.760 the negligent homicide which is just an E felony and give this guy a fighting

01:11:37.820 chance in front of a New York jury because a New York City jury is different

01:11:41.900 than the juries where I am you know upstate and so I don't know if he's going

01:11:47.760 to get a fair shake at this I think there's ample evidence that this was

01:11:50.800 self-defense but not you don't even want to have to put that in front of a jury

01:11:56.000 to be honest with you because you never know what they're going to do the judge

01:11:59.420 had had a chance here to to make a statement and to be a judge and not worry

01:12:03.380 about getting reelected or worry about inciting a riot or worry about any of

01:12:07.280 those things that judges seem to worry more about these days than anything else

01:12:10.260 and that's what ticks me off and they didn't do it he didn't do it so here we

01:12:15.700 are I feel for Daniel Penny I think there he's going to have a lot of witnesses

01:12:19.320 to come forward on his behalf it's going to send a big message I just don't know

01:12:23.720 if he's going to win I hope he does I think he did the right thing but I guess

01:12:28.600 we'll have to wait till the fall to find out it's very hard Mark because you know

01:12:32.480 this is in New York City they played the race card in this case despite zero

01:12:38.040 evidence of racism they've described Jordan Neely as just a Michael Jackson

01:12:43.160 impersonator pulling up video that is more than a decade old he's been in and

01:12:48.420 out of mental institutions he's hurt a lot of people since then and he was

01:12:52.820 threatening to hurt them that day that he was placed in the chokehold on the

01:12:57.180 subway not just by Daniel Penny but by another man who was a person of color but

01:13:02.420 you know this is a post George Floyd era where he was in a chokehold or

01:13:07.320 something that looked like one it was definitely being subdued by this guy and

01:13:11.660 he died so you've got you got that dynamic at play but you also have a New

01:13:16.300 York jury that rides the subway every day where crime seems like it's

01:13:19.840 everywhere people are afraid they see lunatics like this and they're afraid

01:13:23.440 themselves which the defense will definitely be playing up so I

01:13:27.140 how do you how do you see it playing out well I've never understood the

01:13:31.900 charging decision here I really have not I mean this is to if you look at the

01:13:37.260 video or the body cam at least what has been revealed and arguably the the

01:13:44.160 prosecutors have more than what has been out in the media this is a classic

01:13:48.840 defense of others this is somebody the accused is coming to the aid of

01:13:55.800 somebody who other people have already publicly stated they were afraid of they

01:14:01.320 were in fear of you can you have the ability to restrain it did not appear for a

01:14:06.620 second at least on the video that I saw that this was malicious in a sense of

01:14:12.660 there or anything else this was somebody who was trying to subdue someone because

01:14:17.420 they thought they were going to do harm I don't understand the message that you send

01:14:22.960 remember prosecutors have a lot more uh discretion if you will than judges will

01:14:30.320 exercise I agree with John it's not like when I first started practicing where you

01:14:35.800 would judges would use preliminary hearings or probable cause proceedings in order

01:14:40.640 to kind of weed out bad cases the prosecutor is the one who makes the decision here whether

01:14:46.540 to bring the case what's the message you're sending here that you should just sit there on a

01:14:51.840 subway while somebody is going off and could threaten others who may not be as capable as

01:14:58.660 you remember the accused is somebody who apparently served his country and admirably so and if you've

01:15:06.580 watched any of the interviews with this young man he certainly was thoughtful and considerate and

01:15:14.760 remorseful I just don't get the charging decision in the least here yeah but we're in a day and age

01:15:21.700 now you know there's a story every day out on the west coast and here in new york where they're now

01:15:27.840 having to lock up the underwear in the walgreens the deodorant in the walgreens because thieves are

01:15:35.520 coming in taking all this stuff off the shelves and they're under orders in the cvs's and the right

01:15:41.240 aides and the walgreens not to touch them a crimes being committed no problem step back let the crime

01:15:49.600 happen don't get involved you'll call police after the fact and if somebody happens to get hurt or you

01:15:55.420 lose inventory and millions of dollars that's the way it goes don't interfere and I do think that that

01:16:01.400 mentality has spilled over johnna that's why he got charged because we don't applaud good samaritans

01:16:08.820 anymore I'm sorry that the man died but it was clearly unintentional and as a result of his own

01:16:15.100 maliciousness on board that subway and I don't think I shared this with you we talked about this case a

01:16:20.920 while back Megan but three weeks before this Daniel Penny incident three weeks I was on a train

01:16:26.020 from Grand Central coming back up up to where I live and there was a man who could have been

01:16:32.380 Jordan Neely on my train while while we're waiting there for you know 20 minutes before the train takes

01:16:37.740 off I don't know if I've ever been more scared and I'm not a scaredy cat but I sat there planning and

01:16:45.120 planning how I was gonna save myself when this person approached me making the same kind of demands

01:16:51.580 like you better give me something you better give me something to eat I don't care if I die

01:16:54.780 and it was scary so I feel for the people who were on that subway who uh Daniel Penny

01:17:01.760 could have saved by doing what he did it's not a nice feeling especially in this climate like you

01:17:08.860 said we're in a different age now and I can't bring my gun to New York City I can only carry it

01:17:13.500 anywhere else in the state but not New York City so I was scared I bet you those people were too

01:17:17.740 it's it's a sad state it's a very sad state it's true and it's not like you know in a subway

01:17:23.000 you can pepper spray the guy or by the way they say forget pepper spray do bear spray they say bear

01:17:28.980 spray is the thing to do but anyway you can't do that in a subway you will get charged for hurting

01:17:33.600 innocent people if you unleash something like that so what are you supposed to do I mean he tried to

01:17:38.500 use his arm you know to get the guy subdued and he kept fighting and he had threatened that he was

01:17:44.660 going to hurt the people on board the subway I and there's no cops anywhere God forbid you see an

01:17:50.560 a member of law enforcement down there right because we they're underfunded and all the money

01:17:55.660 of the city is going to house the illegals in tent cities and in schools because they won't say no

01:18:01.980 there's no money left so there's no cops when you need them there's no garbage collection I'm sorry but

01:18:07.780 New York it's just it's been a disaster Bill de Blasio it's your fault you were the worst mayor in

01:18:13.420 U.S. history and unfortunately one of the greatest cities I believe the greatest bar none

01:18:18.980 New York got saddled with you and you ruined it and now the new guy while better than de Blasio it's

01:18:25.560 a very low bar he can't fix it he doesn't have the money and all the people who are super rich

01:18:30.480 half of them have moved out because the city's so disgusting and was in forever lockdown during

01:18:35.680 COVID so it's just spiraling the drain and this is part of it they're just allowing criminals to roam

01:18:41.860 free with a reticence to confront them to arrest them or prosecute them Mark it's not just New York

01:18:48.300 well I've got you know Megan I've got a son who works every day in Grand Central and I where the

01:18:56.500 the stories he tells me about the people that are running around in Grand Central and the mental

01:19:04.600 the mental instability of the people who are down there and it's just astonishing and it's every

01:19:11.420 single day and when I'm there in New York which is with some with some degree of frequency I I I feel

01:19:21.760 the pain you just articulated because the what has happened is that it is you know although I do give

01:19:28.900 the current mayor a lot more credit I mean he is he's done a couple of things or he's taken a couple of

01:19:34.980 really good programs and instituted them that I wish they would do here in in Los Angeles where I'm

01:19:42.240 sitting because there there is a an enormous mental health crisis all you have to do is walk around

01:19:49.780 as John has said Grand Central and you'll see it it's it's astonishing what you know you you really

01:19:56.540 can't you the the people who are there are completely unhinged in a lot of cases unhinged in

01:20:04.400 the sense that they have no awareness of what's going on there is nobody down there policing them

01:20:10.400 so to speak and it's taken over the city we we were in New York shortly before we moved out in New York

01:20:17.520 in 2021 with my kids we're in the park it not Central Park Riverside Park supposed to be safe

01:20:24.720 broad daylight there's a homeless guy sitting on a bench we're walking around the loop and um you

01:20:30.720 know we kind of you know you're he's he's there he's on the bench you're walking the loop you're

01:20:35.020 gonna go by him and this guy started like I'm gonna imitate the the growl it was like

01:20:40.960 at me and my children and then got up and came for like we ran we ran he didn't like try to grab us

01:20:49.540 but he was clearly coming for us so we got out of there we went to the Dunkin Donuts another

01:20:54.500 lunatic starts shouting at me and my kids and then gets in this fight with another with a woman

01:20:59.460 like it's dangerous you're just trying to raise a family you're not interacting you're not looking

01:21:04.160 for trouble you're not trying to bother them the trouble comes to you when you allow these people

01:21:09.580 to be out on the street without any mental health help they should be in institutions they should be

01:21:15.660 institutionalized and we've decided that's violative of civil rights nobody gives a damn about the civil

01:21:21.380 rights of those of us who are law-abiding citizens just trying to go for a walk with our kids

01:21:25.360 or we could you know bring it to school shootings right can't lock them up civil rights haven't

01:21:30.860 committed a crime yet oh well they they're all over social media with things saying I want to be the

01:21:34.700 next school shooter how about my civil rights and those of my kids and everybody else's kids to stay

01:21:39.040 safe at school I just something has to change it has to be dramatic and it has to be I think a much

01:21:44.960 more aggressive institutionalization program and then and that requires us to build more humane

01:21:51.160 facilities Jonna like we're they're not we're not going to go back to one flu over the cuckoo's nest

01:21:54.740 but we need something that we would send people to and that society can agree is a more appropriate

01:22:00.200 place than the damn park bench or the subway yeah amen amen and and I don't know what it's going to

01:22:07.500 take to it's not going to happen this year let's put it that way but it does need to happen

01:22:12.180 because we're running people out of out of I think New York is the greatest city in the world too

01:22:16.380 a lot of people have run out of it it's not a safe place to be it's not as fun as it used to be

01:22:21.560 it's problematic and it shouldn't be that way it's it's the heartbeat of our country and it's got a

01:22:28.040 stake through it at this point I agree with you and I hope it does change very very soon but it won't

01:22:32.880 change this year if you know what I mean no no it won't we need changes in leadership look uh this

01:22:38.880 mayor I've been very disappointed by this mayor um I anybody would be better than de Blasio but he

01:22:43.800 may not be with us for much longer anyway since he himself is embroiled in uh an alleged corruption

01:22:48.760 scandal that looks a little like Senator Menendez's who knows what the truth is we'll give him the

01:22:54.160 benefit of the doubt for now and that he didn't do it but uh he's under investigation from the look

01:22:58.220 of it and so is one of his aides okay guys wonderful to see you I don't know this is like this is a wacky

01:23:05.960 day but we had to get to those cases all of which I recommend watching there's a documentary about

01:23:11.040 each one of them and they're all on fire at the moment Mark and John all the best thank you all

01:23:17.240 right and thanks to all of you for joining us today and all week we're going to be back on Monday the day

01:23:21.980 before the New Hampshire primary and who better to join us than the EJs Emily Jashinsky and Eliana

01:23:29.380 Johnson back together see you then thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show no BS no agenda and no fear

The Megyn Kelly Show - January 19, 2024

Crime Friday： New Murdaugh Trial Potential, Adult Dwarf or Child Case, and Gypsy Rose's Boyfriend, with Mark Geragos and Jonna Spilbor ｜ Ep. 706

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