The Megyn Kelly Show - Cuomo and COVID, with Janice Dean and Dr. Martin Kulldorff ｜ Ep. 139

00:00:00.520 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:12.180 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.760 Oh my gosh, the breaking news today on Governor Andrew Cuomo in New York.

00:00:20.620 Would you believe we had Janice Dean booked?

00:00:22.620 Sometimes you just get lucky in foreseeing the news cycle.

00:00:26.120 We had her booked for a few days now to talk about the latest.

00:00:31.500 And this morning, Letitia James, the Attorney General of the State of New York, came out with quite a statement on who our governor is, what he has allegedly done, and what he and his office did to cover up his misdeeds toward nearly a dozen women over the past year plus.

00:00:50.540 Janice is here. Janice is the one who's been doggedly pursuing Andrew Cuomo for the deaths in the New York City and New York State nursing homes, which took the lives of both of her in-laws, and initially felt torn about if he went down, would it be because of the women issue?

00:01:07.560 And why didn't the thousands upon thousands of seniors who were killed by this order he issued, sending COVID-positive patients back into nursing homes, matter?

00:01:17.060 Why wasn't that enough? Well, it's a complicated explanation.

00:01:20.540 But hearing what he allegedly did to these women, state troopers, young executive assistants, women who waited on rope lines to meet him, who were allegedly inappropriately touched by him, time and time again, the stomach turning.

00:01:36.180 And Chris Cuomo's role in helping to cover it up, to silence them, to diminish them while he sits in an anchor post and says to America, I care very deeply about these issues, sexual harassment.

00:01:54.320 How dare he? How dare CNN allow that?

00:01:57.780 She's here.

00:02:27.780 Just before we toss to her, if you haven't watched it today, and apparently, you know, we're taping this around noon, Governor Cuomo's out denying, denying everything and standing firm.

00:02:38.880 This guy's not going anywhere unless he's forced out.

00:02:41.660 Here was Letitia James, a Democrat, attorney general of the state of New York, with her conclusions after an independent investigation was conducted into his, his behavior.

00:02:52.240 The independent investigation has concluded that Governor Andrew Cuomo sexually harassed multiple women and in doing so violated federal and state law.

00:03:04.240 Specifically, the investigation found that Governor Andrew Cuomo sexually harassed current and former New York state employees by engaging in unwelcome and non-consensual touching and making numerous offensive comments of a suggestive and sexual nature that created a hostile work environment for women.

00:03:28.980 Over the course of the investigation, the investigators spoke to 179 individuals, including complainants, current and former members of the executive chamber, state troopers, additional state employees, and others who interacted regularly with the governor.

00:03:50.980 In addition, they reviewed more than 74,000 pieces of evidence.

00:03:59.440 Governor Cuomo sexually harassed multiple women, many of whom were young women, by engaging in unwanted groping, kisses, hugging, and by making inappropriate comments.

00:04:14.400 Further, the governor and his senior team took actions to retaliate against at least one former employee for coming forward with her story.

00:04:25.880 This investigation has revealed conduct that corrodes the very fabric and character of our state government.

00:04:35.340 But none of this, none of this would have been illuminated if not for the heroic women who came forward.

00:04:44.880 And I am inspired by all the brave women who came forward.

00:04:51.620 But more importantly, I believe them.

00:04:56.840 Hmm.

00:04:58.260 If you want to make up your own mind, download the report.

00:05:01.600 It's publicly available.

00:05:03.000 It has texts.

00:05:04.860 It has evidence.

00:05:06.400 It has direct communications from his accusers to others at and around the time of the alleged incidents.

00:05:13.080 It has an appendix, an appendix, um, which, which has an email from Chris, Chris Cuomo, uh, appearing to draft a statement for his brother.

00:05:27.720 Check it out for yourself.

00:05:29.060 You come up to come to your own decision about whether this is appropriate from a sitting New York governor in a sitting CNN anchor who purports to be objective.

00:05:40.160 But we're going to kick it off with Janice Dean. 0.93

00:05:43.240 Martin Kaldorf will be after that.

00:05:45.680 Thanks for sharing in this program today.

00:05:52.900 All right.

00:05:54.420 Ah, JD, this has just ended.

00:05:57.520 This is such a, this is such a wacky day.

00:06:00.500 We just did an interview with you this morning before this came out, which we're now going to throw in the garbage can.

00:06:05.660 And it's no longer timely.

00:06:07.800 I don't know about you, but I'm reeling.

00:06:10.160 I'm kind of reeling in my seat about what we just heard, the specifics of what these women alleged and what he and his office allegedly did in response.

00:06:23.260 I don't even know how to put this into words.

00:06:25.840 You know, I always assumed, uh, that the sexual harassment charges would be the thing that might get him for many reasons.

00:06:35.060 And I am so proud of those brave women today, you know, those young women who really risked their careers and their livelihoods and their reputation to go against this powerful monster.

00:06:52.720 And to see our attorney general, Letitia James, who's a Democrat, go up there and just line by line, you know, deliver the information, the disgusting behavior. 1.00

00:07:08.660 It's all about power.

00:07:10.400 And, you know, it doesn't matter if we're talking about the nursing homes or we're talking about him giving out friends and friends and family COVID tests.

00:07:20.260 It's all about abuse of power with this guy.

00:07:23.300 And I think today is the first day that we're going to hopefully see some accountability.

00:07:30.760 It's already starting to happen.

00:07:32.100 And the New York state Senate majority leader, a Democrat has, has, uh, already said he can no longer serve.

00:07:39.120 He himself, um, said this, this tweet is making the rounds May 17th, 2013 quote.

00:07:45.660 There should be a zero tolerance policy when it comes to sexual harassment.

00:07:49.720 And we must send a clear message that this behavior is not tolerated.

00:07:55.060 Um, there's no room for any of this in any workplace.

00:08:01.560 And certainly not in the state house of the great state of New York.

00:08:06.600 I want to go through with you some of the specific allegations because we learned a lot, a lot from Tish James, that presser and the document, the executive summary and so on that they put out, which is over 160 pages long.

00:08:19.400 Um, just so people don't have to take your word for it or my word for it.

00:08:22.880 Let's, let's see exactly what the women went in and told Letitia James. 1.00

00:08:27.840 And by the way, her, her independent investigators, a lot of these, they take pains in the report to point out are corroborated by independent texts, friends who came forward, aides who admitted they saw it.

00:08:39.620 And state troopers who witnessed the, some of the behaviors, it's not to say Andrew Cuomo doesn't deny it, but just know this isn't just, I mean, with all due respect to Christine Blasey Ford, it isn't just somebody coming forward after 30 years and saying, this is what I remember without any corroboration.

00:08:55.460 This is painstaking executive assistant.

00:08:59.440 Number one had close.

00:09:02.200 This is her allegation.

00:09:03.060 According to the executive summary had close and intimate hugs with him, kisses on the cheeks, forehead, at least one kiss on the lips, touching and grabbing of her butt during hugs.

00:09:13.260 And on one occasion while taking selfies with him, comments about her personal life relationships, calling her and another girl mingle mamas, inquiring multiple times about whether she had cheated or would cheat on her husband, asking for 0.95

00:09:25.440 her, her, her help finding him a girlfriend.

00:09:27.500 And then there was this at the executive mansion, November, 2020, when the governor during another close hug with this young executive assistant quote reached under her blouse and grabbed her breast.

00:09:41.320 That's sexual assault. 0.97

00:09:42.720 It doesn't even have to be that egregious and unwanted physical touch.

00:09:45.800 It's a sexual assault under the law.

00:09:47.500 That is clear.

00:09:49.280 If in fact that happened and it's pretty detailed under the blouse, grabbing a young woman's breast, who is a low, 0.57

00:09:55.440 executive executive assistant for you, there's a reason that's number one in the complaint against this guy.

00:10:02.480 You know, it's, it's hard for me to listen to because I had that happen as well in an office in New York, uh, will the superior. 0.82

00:10:10.440 He did the same thing to me, uh, grab my breasts from behind. 0.99

00:10:15.520 So, um, 0.78

00:10:16.880 so I feel for these women. 0.99

00:10:21.200 I really do.

00:10:22.300 I know it's kind of triggering. 0.99

00:10:23.680 It is kind of, I hate that word, but God damn it. 0.99

00:10:26.340 It is you, you say that. 0.99

00:10:28.820 And I, it brings me right back to that office.

00:10:31.160 And I, I know it's not about me.

00:10:32.960 It's about these strong women, but you have to understand that this kind of behavior, we can't put up with this or tolerate it anymore. 1.00

00:10:40.660 These brave women.

00:10:42.120 I remember that what I was wearing that day when my boss did that.

00:10:46.760 Um, so to hear that, uh, and to be, to be in an office with an attorney and to, you know, they're strangers.

00:10:54.820 Right.

00:10:55.240 And you're telling them your deepest, darkest secrets that you don't even tell your boyfriend or your husband.

00:11:01.680 Oh my gosh.

00:11:02.640 He, I mean, I just having gone through this, you've gone through this.

00:11:06.280 You just want him to go away and shame.

00:11:10.080 He, he allegedly did this to this woman.

00:11:13.780 And the complaint says for over three months, this executive assistant kept this groping incident to herself and quote, planned to take it to the grave.

00:11:22.520 He's been there, right?

00:11:24.580 Been there, but she found herself becoming emotional while watching the governor's state at a press conference on March 3rd, 2021, the following, listen to the comment that brought this woman forward.

00:11:38.600 I want New Yorkers to hear from me directly on this.

00:11:46.080 I fully support a woman's right to come forward.

00:11:50.940 I now understand that I acted in a way that made people feel uncomfortable.

00:12:00.420 But this is what I want you to know.

00:12:03.720 I never touched anyone inappropriately.

00:12:09.080 I never touched anyone inappropriately.

00:12:13.300 She wasn't going to tell.

00:12:17.860 Even though other women had come forward already, the dam had already broken.

00:12:22.200 This young woman wasn't going to tell because, you know, very well, as along with me, that women are terrified of getting this label slapped around them, that they're a complainer, that they're going to be a me to her.

00:12:33.820 They don't want to get hired.

00:12:35.200 They're afraid that they won't get hired.

00:12:36.940 And that was the thing that did it.

00:12:39.440 And she went to the investigators.

00:12:40.800 She actually she confided to colleagues who reported her allegations to senior staff in the executive chamber who honestly, J.D., the stories about the senior staff are almost as concerning.

00:12:51.920 The web of aides who couldn't have cared less about the 11 women staffers and outside the department as well who came forward.

00:13:02.200 I don't know what to say.

00:13:03.320 It's they all need to go.

00:13:06.360 They all need to resign in shame.

00:13:08.720 And the fact that these people, his administration, continued to try to smear these women, you know, up until a couple of weeks ago when Rich as a party, his top aide, was saying,

00:13:19.980 I don't know if we can trust, you know, what's going on in the AG department.

00:13:23.740 I don't know if we could trust these women and what they're saying. 1.00

00:13:27.080 And, you know, the governor, too.

00:13:28.740 I remember a couple of weeks ago saying, you will be shocked when you find out, you know, what happened to me.

00:13:36.580 You know, like the truth.

00:13:38.520 Yeah.

00:13:39.140 Yeah.

00:13:39.420 Like, yeah, he's, you know, it goes back to don't be mean to me.

00:13:44.060 You know, he's the victim.

00:13:46.020 Give me a huge effing break.

00:13:49.980 Well, you got to hand it to Lindsay Boylan, who came forward first in December of last year, I think it was, in a tweet who broke the dam, right?

00:13:59.020 She was the first to actually say, this happened to me.

00:14:01.920 He kissed me inappropriately on the lips.

00:14:03.780 He touched other body parts, made me feel very uncomfortable, asked me to play strip poker.

00:14:07.880 And at the time she was running for office and they went for her.

00:14:12.040 They dismissed her as a political operative. 0.98

00:14:13.760 She's a Democrat, but they dismissed her as some sort of a political operative. 0.99

00:14:17.000 And she stood alone for a while there. 0.97

00:14:18.760 And I'm sure she was scared because he is a bully.

00:14:21.560 And then one by one, other women started started coming forward. 1.00

00:14:26.100 One one that I need to talk to you about trooper number one is how she's described in the complaint.

00:14:32.160 They talk about how in early November 2017, the governor briefly met this trooper on at an event on the RF Kennedy Bridge known as the Triborough Bridge in New York.

00:14:44.040 After meeting her, he basically asked to have her join his protective services unit, even though she hadn't met the requirement to have at least three years of police service.

00:14:52.000 He clearly just had an eye for this young woman and brought her on board.

00:14:56.420 Right. Then she joins the team. 1.00

00:14:59.700 She says he harassed her.

00:15:00.920 This is a state trooper harassed her on numerous occasions by number one, running his hand across her stomach from her belly button to her right hip when she held a door open for him in an event. 0.98

00:15:11.660 What a prick. I'm sorry. 0.95

00:15:13.500 I know he denies it.

00:15:14.960 I want people to remember that.

00:15:16.120 But this is an independent investigation that says he did it.

00:15:19.700 That says his denials do not hold credibility that talk about independent witnesses who verify these women. 0.99

00:15:24.320 A state trooper there to protect his ass gets her stomach, such an intimate body part felt up by him as she's trying to open the door for him. 1.00

00:15:32.900 She's already in a subservient position to him. 0.99

00:15:35.540 Then he ran his finger down her back from the top of her neck to her spine, saying, hey, you while she was standing in front of him at an elevator. 0.90

00:15:43.380 This poor woman needed a protective detail of her own, kissing her and only her on the cheek in front of another trooper, asking to kiss her on another another occasion, making sexually suggestive and gender based comments, including he asked her to help him find a girlfriend and described his criteria for a girlfriend as someone who, quote, can handle pain. 1.00

00:16:02.860 It's been corroborated by several other troopers who witnessed much of this behavior, J.D.

00:16:09.540 It's, again, about power.

00:16:11.700 We've talked about this, you know, victims of sexual harassment many times will tell you it's not necessarily about the sex.

00:16:18.860 It's about having power, making those people feel, you know, demeaned and that they can't do anything but listen to this lech. 0.97

00:16:28.680 I'm glad it's all coming out, Megan.

00:16:30.840 And I've always said I don't care what ultimately brings him down.

00:16:35.320 I don't, you know, I don't care what it is.

00:16:38.440 I do want justice for my in-laws because there's a laundry list of scandals, not only with the sexual harassment,

00:16:44.340 but, you know, with the nursing homes and him covering up the numbers and the $5.1 million book and using state resources and the friends and family COVID tests when nursing homes couldn't get them.

00:16:55.500 And his brother, his brother needs to be looked at as well.

00:17:00.160 His brother was giving detailed information almost as a lawyer to his brother and the administration on what to do about his sexual harassment charges.

00:17:10.900 And CNN allowed it to happen.

00:17:13.980 Yeah, there's been no penalty to him for any of that. 0.99

00:17:17.320 Chris Cuomo now, we know, 11 alleged victims going forward one by one saying he grabbed my ass. 0.99

00:17:23.120 He grabbed my breast underneath my blouse. 1.00

00:17:25.400 He kissed me against my will.

00:17:26.880 He told me I want somebody who who can handle pain.

00:17:31.120 One woman, he said he told her he was lonely and he wanted to be touched.

00:17:35.720 That was Charlotte Bennett, this young woman who was deeply traumatized.

00:17:39.280 She was only 25 years old and said he wanted to date someone as young as 22 years old that he would be willing to do so.

00:17:45.660 And so you read this, you find this out.

00:17:47.560 I realize you're his brother, but you're also a news anchor in a major post.

00:17:50.880 And you sit down and you say, let's dismiss it as cancel culture.

00:17:54.400 It's called sexual assault. 0.97

00:17:56.360 That's what it's called.

00:17:57.520 Soon as you realize you're dealing with a crime, we're beyond harassment now.

00:18:01.720 We're beyond hostile work environment, which they allege.

00:18:03.900 You step out, you say, brother, you need a lawyer, an outside lawyer, not me.

00:18:09.940 But instead, he advised him to attack them, to diminish them, to smear them.

00:18:17.080 And the fact that this guy is still sitting at that anchor desk is a disgrace, Janice.

00:18:22.300 CNN, you know, now is the time.

00:18:24.780 You've had enough opportunities to protect this guy.

00:18:27.720 Now we know that he was advising him to, you know, demean these women, smear them, and just keep going.

00:18:36.700 So, you know, there's a lot of tentacles, obviously, here.

00:18:40.540 His administration, his brother, his family.

00:18:43.380 But I hope that this is the first day of the end of his career.

00:18:48.000 Well, Joe Biden had said in March that Andrew Cromo must resign if an investigation confirmed the allegations.

00:18:58.640 And Tish James has made no bones about it, that he engaged in serial sexual harassment, 0.98

00:19:05.640 including against a number of current and former New York State employees,

00:19:09.620 by engaging in unwelcome, non-consensual touching,

00:19:12.240 as well as making numerous offensive comments of a suggestive and sexual nature,

00:19:16.360 creating a hostile work environment.

00:19:17.500 Can I tell you the one that stood out to me as well?

00:19:20.080 A woman in a rope line.

00:19:22.200 She stood on a rope line, J.D., to meet him at an event in upstate New York, my home territory.

00:19:28.300 And when she got up to him, this is May 17, she said her name, Virginia Limiadis.

00:19:36.200 When she got up to him, they say, quote,

00:19:39.040 the governor reached her, he ran two fingers across her chest, 0.64

00:19:42.840 pressing down on each of the letters that had her company name on it.

00:19:46.300 And as he did so, he was reading the name of the energy company as he went.

00:19:50.260 He then leaned in with his face close to her cheek and said,

00:19:53.760 I'm going to say I see a spider on your shoulder,

00:19:56.780 before brushing his hand in the area between her shoulder and breasts below her collarbone. 0.98

00:20:02.200 This woman, too, was not planning on coming forward until she heard his March 3rd, 2021 press conference saying,

00:20:11.780 I never touched anyone inappropriately.

00:20:14.220 So good for her.

00:20:15.620 And what a risk he took going out there and so boldly denying it.

00:20:19.560 But you can't have a leader of a state out there doing this to women while governor, J.D. 1.00

00:20:25.900 This isn't something that happened in ancient history.

00:20:29.580 Yeah.

00:20:30.140 And we need lawmakers now to step in front of the camera like Gillibrand and Schumer.

00:20:35.820 And, you know, President Biden needs to say something now, because from what I've heard,

00:20:39.660 you know, listening to New Yorkers, people in the media and even lawmakers,

00:20:44.240 that the only person Andrew Cuomo will listen to is Joe Biden.

00:20:48.080 And so Joe Biden needs to do something.

00:20:50.680 Give him give him a little phone call.

00:20:52.780 And he was supposed to be the attorney general.

00:20:55.140 Oh, my gosh.

00:20:55.940 I mean, this guy was the anointed one.

00:20:58.160 Can you imagine?

00:20:59.720 Right.

00:21:00.120 No, exactly.

00:21:00.960 This is going to be the person in charge of our lawmaker, our lawmaking and enforcement of our laws,

00:21:06.240 including this kind of thing.

00:21:08.380 I don't can we let's spend a minute talking about due process because I do care about it.

00:21:12.220 And not all women, not all women women should be believed. 1.00

00:21:16.540 We've talked about that before.

00:21:17.660 Right.

00:21:18.160 Like some women do lie. 1.00

00:21:20.400 Some of the things Tish James said today, I wish she hadn't said.

00:21:23.780 I wish she hadn't kept saying her truth. 1.00

00:21:26.060 You know, that's that's a bullshit phrase. 0.99

00:21:28.180 There's truth. 1.00

00:21:28.920 Right.

00:21:29.220 There's truth.

00:21:29.880 Her testimonial.

00:21:30.900 That's OK.

00:21:31.900 And she said, I believe I believe the women.

00:21:36.280 OK.

00:21:38.100 I just we the guy does deserve due process.

00:21:41.740 Any man accused deserves due process.

00:21:43.960 So what does that look like here?

00:21:48.140 I mean, that's a good point.

00:21:50.180 You know, I I'm not a good judge because I am very biased and I think he's guilty of pretty much everything.

00:22:00.080 So but I hear what you're saying.

00:22:02.020 Yeah.

00:22:02.360 I mean, she she's out there basically saying, I believe these women. 0.99

00:22:05.460 And well, I mean, there's I don't know what person except for his family would go on the record and try to defend him right now, to be honest.

00:22:15.580 Mm hmm.

00:22:16.420 Well, here's what I think.

00:22:17.960 He's he's had it.

00:22:19.820 He's come out.

00:22:20.680 He's denied many of the charges publicly as a sort of a sweeping denial, actually, publicly.

00:22:26.580 And then he went in for 11 hours and spoke to Tish James and offered his denials.

00:22:30.680 And they're detailed in her report.

00:22:31.860 If you want to see specifically what he's denied and what he hasn't.

00:22:34.820 He basically claims that anything, no inappropriate touching, but he there were some kisses, but they were all initiated by the women.

00:22:42.400 Sure.

00:22:42.760 Sure, they were.

00:22:43.420 It's weird how they all just no one can keep their hands off of him if you read his denial.

00:22:48.980 And now it's a matter of the court of public opinion, because this is a political matter.

00:22:53.920 Even she said that when it comes to a crime, she's saying prosecutors can do what they want to do.

00:22:59.040 I'm not bringing charges against him.

00:23:00.780 That wasn't within my purview.

00:23:02.020 He had to assign her the power to do this investigation, which he did under duress.

00:23:06.640 Like they were there was too much pressure on him to to ignore it.

00:23:10.320 So she didn't have the purview to say criminal charges are being brought.

00:23:13.420 She said prosecutors can do what they what they think is appropriate.

00:23:16.360 So now it's a political matter.

00:23:17.780 That's what this is.

00:23:18.820 And politically, he can come out and say anything more he wants to.

00:23:22.780 But I think it's it's done.

00:23:24.240 There's an independent investigation.

00:23:25.560 These are the findings.

00:23:26.220 People read the report, come to their own conclusions.

00:23:28.540 Well, and also, you know, you have to think that maybe he doesn't want to step down because

00:23:34.560 he gets the you know, he gets the benefits of having attorneys work for him as the governor

00:23:39.360 of New York.

00:23:39.740 So I don't know if it's a really sound thing for him to step down financially.

00:23:43.880 Right.

00:23:44.760 As governor, he is, you know, they're going to protect him, his attorneys.

00:23:50.780 If he steps down now, that's going to be, you know, a money pit of lawyers.

00:23:57.340 Hmm.

00:23:57.800 I'd have to look to that.

00:23:58.880 I mean, there are some exceptions if you're accused of misconduct in your.

00:24:03.860 Sort of as a personal matter, as a man, as opposed to as governor, not every act would

00:24:09.300 be represented by the governor's lawyers, or at least in some places.

00:24:12.420 I don't know the law, but this is as governor.

00:24:15.240 So we'll see.

00:24:16.420 I don't know what's going to happen.

00:24:17.440 But the irony, JD, that while he was doing all this, allegedly, he was winning Emmys.

00:24:23.160 He was given a book deal.

00:24:24.800 He was allegedly using state staff to write that book instead of working on state policy

00:24:29.820 and fighting covid and so on.

00:24:31.440 They're writing him the book he made five million dollars off of while going to fundraisers

00:24:35.900 and being the toast of the town celebrated by his brother on CNN, celebrated by even recently

00:24:41.620 by people like Whoopi Goldberg and Ben Stiller going to these fundraisers.

00:24:45.880 And all of this had come out, much of it had come out.

00:24:49.180 No one gives a damn.

00:24:50.920 Yeah, I was difficult.

00:24:52.720 But, you know, if it wasn't for him celebrating himself with his brother and going on these

00:24:57.900 all of the channels, NBC, ABC, CBS, and, you know, with the the soft focus and the family

00:25:04.540 and everything, you know, oh, look at this governor.

00:25:06.900 He could be president someday.

00:25:08.520 If it wasn't for that, I don't know that I would have become so vocal.

00:25:12.100 You know, that's the thing that made my blood boil that the thing seeing his brother on

00:25:17.140 CNN with the fake Q-tip.

00:25:19.220 I mean, the next day I went on Tucker Carlson show and told the story of my in-laws and

00:25:25.120 how the governor was putting covid positive patients into nursing homes and how I believed

00:25:30.140 he was covering up those numbers.

00:25:31.600 And even though it was just me out there, I felt somebody had to speak up.

00:25:37.820 So, you know what?

00:25:38.520 I'm really glad that this guy, instead of, you know, kind of being quiet about it, shouted

00:25:45.180 to the world how great he was.

00:25:48.060 That's interesting.

00:25:49.240 And the media did, too.

00:25:50.380 Right.

00:25:50.560 They did his bidding as well.

00:25:52.000 Right.

00:25:52.220 I mean, this is all it all ties together because the nursing home situation, I mean, with all

00:25:58.960 due respect to these 11 women, it's there's no comparison which one is more egregious. 1.00

00:26:02.660 There's just no comparison his but his disrespect, bullying nature and and view of humanity is

00:26:08.180 just tools at his disposal is consistent throughout.

00:26:11.960 But I mean, you it's one thing to have a highly unpleasant, disturbing experience with

00:26:16.460 the guy in his office.

00:26:17.220 And it's another to have your parents die like Sean did.

00:26:21.400 You know, your your hero firefighter 9-11 husband had both parents killed in these New

00:26:25.820 York nursing homes after his order, sending covid positive patients back in there.

00:26:30.280 And this was something that was called to his attention as a potentially deadly decision.

00:26:33.840 Of course, they're saying the nursing homes can't handle this.

00:26:36.300 They're too small.

00:26:37.240 They're going to be breathing right on other people who are the most vulnerable.

00:26:40.080 And he didn't listen.

00:26:41.460 He did it anyway.

00:26:42.560 And then when caught, he denied it.

00:26:44.360 He denied the numbers of dead.

00:26:45.440 He always tried to blame everyone else.

00:26:47.600 The nurses, God never took responsibility, didn't care, just kept saying people die.

00:26:52.940 They die.

00:26:53.920 And now, again, you know, attacking and retaliating against at least one of his accusers.

00:27:00.140 At some point, you have to look at the guy and say, we've seen your character in office

00:27:05.360 as a governor.

00:27:06.960 And we're done.

00:27:08.360 We're done.

00:27:09.360 Yeah.

00:27:09.880 I don't know if we'll ever see justice.

00:27:11.940 I still am angry about the DOJ that Biden's administration decided it wasn't valid to go

00:27:18.520 look as to why these governors put covid positive patients into nursing homes.

00:27:23.660 Why doesn't he want to know the origin of that?

00:27:25.360 Don't you think that as we go further on and we have another pandemic, God forbid, that wouldn't

00:27:29.540 we want to know the answers as to why these governors issued that mandate?

00:27:32.800 So he dropped his investigation.

00:27:36.340 I'm going to be vocal about that, too.

00:27:38.280 I mean, Senator Tim Scott and I are already trying to, you know, rattle some doors.

00:27:44.440 You know, I'm going to pound some doors in Congress if I if I get the chance to say this

00:27:48.460 is important.

00:27:49.300 This is our greatest generation.

00:27:50.840 And you don't care.

00:27:52.320 You don't care why thousands died and infected patients were put into their most vulnerable

00:27:57.580 places.

00:27:58.120 That is an atrocity.

00:28:00.960 And I want to find out why our governor did it for 46 days and why he covered up the numbers

00:28:06.280 and why he decided to write a book instead of writing condolence cards.

00:28:10.760 I don't know if we'll get those answers.

00:28:12.800 But again, Megan, I've always said that I don't care.

00:28:15.540 I don't care what gets him.

00:28:17.380 He needs to go.

00:28:18.580 He doesn't deserve this position. 1.00

00:28:20.040 And he is really a truly awful human being. 0.90

00:28:23.080 And it's the the report goes on to talk about him behind the scenes trying to do damage

00:28:30.260 control as the women come out one after the other, saying, OK, I'll agree to apologize 1.00

00:28:34.840 and get counseling.

00:28:36.500 We'll say I'm getting counseling, but we'll postpone that decision or that announcement

00:28:40.080 till later.

00:28:41.100 And Chris Cuomo is apparently weighing in on all of this, according to the report.

00:28:44.160 You know, it measures like, oh, counseling. 0.99

00:28:45.800 I'm so sick of the damn counseling. 1.00

00:28:47.520 You know what I mean? 1.00

00:28:47.900 It's like you don't get counseled out of stuff like give me a break.

00:28:51.500 Like he needed to be counseled to be told, don't grab your employee's breast under her 0.97

00:28:56.220 blouse.

00:28:56.800 Don't shove your tongue down somebody's throat who works for you.

00:28:59.480 Don't say you want to date a woman who likes pain or you feel lonely and want to be touched

00:29:03.320 to your staff.

00:29:04.620 Don't grab women's bottoms who don't grab women's chests who wait on the rope line. 1.00

00:29:08.540 What counseling is going to disabuse him of these notions?

00:29:13.700 Yeah, that's a good point.

00:29:14.820 And, you know, to the Albany Press, too, I've talked to a lot of reporters that have followed

00:29:19.360 this governor, and many of them have told me that he'll never go down.

00:29:23.500 Albany reporters, they're like, you know, your crusade is a valid one, but he's Teflon.

00:29:30.820 He's not going anywhere.

00:29:32.500 And I just think to myself, my gosh, if I listened to you people, we wouldn't be here today.

00:29:38.120 If the women listened to those people, listened to all of the big media channels saying that 0.84

00:29:44.500 he was the go-to pandemic politician, man, I'm still sort of, you know, in a state of

00:29:53.060 shock, but I'm so proud of those women. 0.99

00:29:55.680 I'm so proud of the people that stood up. 0.99

00:29:59.500 He's a monster. 0.94

00:30:00.680 And I don't know what's going to happen. 0.95

00:30:02.220 I think the, you know, the lawmakers, the assembly in New York really needs to get their

00:30:08.400 act together and they need to impeach him.

00:30:10.280 Mm hmm.

00:30:11.480 Yeah.

00:30:11.680 If he doesn't resign, there is still an active impeachment investigation going on in the

00:30:17.580 state assembly, which I know you don't have any faith in.

00:30:19.920 They're slow rolling it just to bounce this.

00:30:21.860 Yeah.

00:30:22.380 But the pressure just amped up significantly.

00:30:25.080 And on him, on them, there's a separate investigation by the U.S.

00:30:28.920 attorney and the FBI into some of these nursing home allegations.

00:30:32.040 And we'll see whether that goes anyplace.

00:30:33.580 But Letitia James really had more power than anybody. 1.00

00:30:36.220 She's already come out and backed your allegations about his dishonesty on the on the nursing

00:30:41.360 homes, that his understatement of the numbers and so on.

00:30:44.540 And now this.

00:30:45.320 And I know she wants his job.

00:30:47.560 I mean, I really I know that she's a Democrat.

00:30:50.120 Some people say she's the next attorney general or she's the next governor. 0.99

00:30:53.540 But these are outside investigators.

00:30:55.500 And these are women who came forward with their testimonials supported by third party witnesses.

00:31:00.220 So the public's going to make its own decision.

00:31:02.680 And I don't know, J.D., when you think back in your past year, you know, when you first

00:31:07.240 sort of took up this mantle.

00:31:09.600 As an activist, when it comes to him and this issue.

00:31:13.860 How do you think you've changed?

00:31:16.140 I can't give up.

00:31:17.440 I mean, there have been so many times where even Sean, my husband, has said to me, how long

00:31:22.160 are you going to keep doing this for?

00:31:25.260 And I won't give up.

00:31:27.940 I won't give up.

00:31:29.720 I can't.

00:31:30.740 I've gone this far.

00:31:31.660 I mean, this is over a year in and the dam is breaking.

00:31:38.340 You know, like what if I hadn't gone on Tucker Carlson show in May and said, this is what

00:31:45.620 I think is going on.

00:31:47.420 You know, I've become friends with these women who have come forward.

00:31:52.340 You know, we we have become friends.

00:31:54.400 And I've messaged several of them today and told them I am standing in solidarity with

00:31:59.800 them.

00:32:00.200 And we've got this.

00:32:02.200 I feel, you know, people think I'm political.

00:32:05.220 This has nothing to do with politics.

00:32:07.800 I don't care who they voted for.

00:32:10.260 I'm so proud of these young women.

00:32:12.720 Megan, I'm I'm I'm so proud of those young women because they were doing right now.

00:32:19.180 Everything.

00:32:20.460 Yeah.

00:32:21.460 How are they?

00:32:23.520 I think they're OK.

00:32:25.040 I mean, I think they feel what I feel.

00:32:27.920 That's sort of like adrenaline rush where you're like, oh, could this be it?

00:32:32.200 Could we be getting him?

00:32:33.980 Is this the moment?

00:32:35.220 Right.

00:32:36.280 But there's you know, there's still there's still time.

00:32:39.860 We still have to figure out what he's going to do.

00:32:42.120 Right.

00:32:42.420 I mean, if you judge by history, he's not going anywhere right now, but I think by a

00:32:50.380 powerful machine and it's time for lawmakers to stand up.

00:32:55.560 Kristen Gillibrand, Chuck Schumer, who are the most powerful New York politicians and Joe

00:33:02.020 Biden.

00:33:03.400 Joe Biden needs to do the right thing and he needs to call his buddy, Andrew Cuomo and say,

00:33:10.140 buddy, it's time to go.

00:33:13.080 Yeah, you got to go.

00:33:15.520 Janice, without you, this would look very different.

00:33:18.120 This whole story would look very different.

00:33:19.900 I really do wonder whether even Lindsay Boylan ever would have sent that tweet had it not

00:33:24.120 been for Janice Dean and all the tweets and activism that preceded that. 0.95

00:33:29.160 And I just mean activism in terms of calling attention, looking for real answers.

00:33:32.680 That's all it took because the press did not do its job.

00:33:35.480 They were too busy lionizing this guy.

00:33:37.680 And there was one woman and a couple of lawmakers who had who had skin in the game.

00:33:42.280 They had lost loved ones of their own Democrats who said, yeah, we're going to push harder.

00:33:47.460 Yeah.

00:33:48.420 You know, I get how smooth he is at the press conferences, but something bad happened here

00:33:52.720 and we're going to look into it.

00:33:54.840 And we don't care that we stand alone.

00:33:56.460 We don't care how many times in your case I get attacked by the press or Soledad O'Brien

00:34:01.880 or Matthew Dowd.

00:34:03.520 You can call me whatever you want.

00:34:05.320 I'm not stopping.

00:34:06.260 And that's that's where you remain.

00:34:08.600 That's where you still are.

00:34:10.580 I'm so proud of you.

00:34:13.020 I think our journey together helped me to get to this point.

00:34:16.440 So I thank you and your friendship.

00:34:20.060 Well, you know, it has it made me feel watching that today, her talking about the women and

00:34:24.000 their testimonials and some of the stuff he did, woman after woman.

00:34:27.200 And it did remind me of the ale situation and sort of the shock when you realize how many

00:34:33.120 women are there and that you weren't it wasn't just you. 1.00

00:34:36.280 And, you know, there was a culture that allowed it not just, you know, just one bad guy.

00:34:41.700 And then you have a different way of looking at it.

00:34:43.800 Like I was immersed in this situation that was not of my own making.

00:34:47.160 When they talk about like Melissa DeRosa, just moving one of the complainants and saying

00:34:52.040 no, no young women can be with the governor from now on for his protection for his. 0.99

00:34:57.200 This was she had an obligation to report it up the line.

00:34:59.680 And according to Tish James, she didn't.

00:35:01.480 She didn't.

00:35:02.080 She didn't care about the women in that office. 1.00

00:35:03.540 She cared about power and protecting him.

00:35:05.800 And if he goes down, she ought to go down and disgrace with him.

00:35:09.580 She and that guy rich.

00:35:10.920 Both of these people have come after you as well.

00:35:13.440 They're like that.

00:35:14.040 They're like his jackals.

00:35:15.020 You know, in the movie, The Omen, where they're the jackal, there's the jackal that supports

00:35:18.840 little Damien.

00:35:20.000 There is jackals and jackals in these situations have to go to.

00:35:24.180 Yeah, well.

00:35:26.260 It's a good day today, and I do feel a small part of justice is being done, and I believe

00:35:34.820 the angels are on our side, Megan.

00:35:37.180 Yeah, yeah.

00:35:38.780 You're one of them.

00:35:40.320 They're looking left and right.

00:35:41.880 And you've seen a bunch of twins there, J.D., because you're all goodness.

00:35:45.020 And I just, I love you so much.

00:35:47.260 Thanks for being, it seems right that you were here today for this, this particular

00:35:50.460 story.

00:35:51.200 I feel, I feel it was serendipitous.

00:35:53.680 Right?

00:35:55.100 Okay, to be continued.

00:35:57.000 Love you, lady.

00:35:59.040 Martin Kaldorf's coming up next.

00:36:00.600 He's a professor of medicine at Harvard, and he was on the CDC's scientific committee

00:36:05.040 for evaluating side effects of the vaccinations up until April.

00:36:08.760 They kicked him off.

00:36:10.100 And wait until you hear why.

00:36:12.100 This guy's been very brave about pushing back against some of the narratives all along.

00:36:16.000 But the CDC doesn't apparently want differences of opinion.

00:36:19.140 Some sense talk on Delta, on lockdowns, on mandates, and his story about the CDC right

00:36:26.280 after this.

00:36:26.700 Let's just get right into it.

00:36:32.020 The CDC says the war has changed because the Delta variant is far more contagious than the

00:36:38.400 earlier variants.

00:36:39.740 You have much more of the virus in your nose, even if you've been vaccinated.

00:36:43.780 And that's why we all have to mask up universally.

00:36:47.040 And we have to sort of go backward and start fighting this war as though it were March 2020.

00:36:53.660 Do you agree?

00:36:54.160 No, any virus will have mutations, and some of them might make it more contagious so that

00:37:02.620 it's spread more easily from person to person.

00:37:05.180 But the key thing is twofold.

00:37:07.640 One is that we have a lot of people who have national immunity from COVID because they've

00:37:13.320 had COVID during the last year and a half.

00:37:15.360 We also have a lot of people who have immunity from vaccines.

00:37:19.120 So it doesn't make sense to look at cases.

00:37:25.580 We have to look at mortality and death.

00:37:28.120 And what we've seen now is a decoupling of cases and death.

00:37:32.200 So if you are immune, your immune system doesn't prevent you from being exposed to the virus.

00:37:40.660 It doesn't prevent the virus from entering your body.

00:37:44.640 And even if you're immune, the virus can start replicating in your body.

00:37:49.380 So it's very possible to test positive for this virus, even if you have a well-functioning immune system

00:37:57.840 that works against the virus.

00:38:01.680 What the immune system does, it protects you from severe illness and it protects you from death.

00:38:09.980 So we have seen in many places that this decoupling from the case counts and the mortality.

00:38:19.920 So in England, for example, there was a big spike of cases that's now on its way down during the summer.

00:38:27.880 There's a little blip in the mortality because there are still some people who are not immune yet.

00:38:34.720 So we saw in Sweden, there were three waves of cases.

00:38:39.160 The first two had mortality also.

00:38:41.580 In the third wave during the spring, which peaked about in April, there were almost no mortality.

00:38:49.200 The mortality was very, very low.

00:38:50.820 And now Sweden has close to zero mortality for about a month now.

00:38:54.760 If we look at the U.S., in July, the COVID mortality was lower than at any point since March of 2020 when the pandemic started in the U.S.

00:39:08.120 So that's good news.

00:39:11.900 We have a lot of immunity now in the population.

00:39:15.560 Most of it, I think, is from the natural immunity from people having had COVID with or without severe symptoms.

00:39:22.280 But, of course, also from the vaccines.

00:39:26.100 So it's very strange that we now are going through this whole thing again when we have had this decoupling.

00:39:34.560 And when the pandemic is over, the virus is not going to go away.

00:39:40.940 Zero COVID is impossible.

00:39:42.740 Australia has tried it but failed.

00:39:44.900 Or as some jokers said, they have now successfully eradicated the virus a dozen times.

00:39:54.300 But it is impossible to eradicate this virus.

00:39:57.420 It will be endemic.

00:39:58.380 It will be with us forever.

00:40:01.520 And we will live with it.

00:40:05.180 But the mortality, we're not going to see the kind of mortality that we have had in the last year and a half.

00:40:10.680 Every season, there will be some older people who have a weakened immune system that will, unfortunately, die from this virus in future years.

00:40:22.340 But these huge waves that we have seen on mortality, those we will not see once the pandemic is over, once it's endemic.

00:40:33.660 All right, a couple of things to follow up in there.

00:40:36.640 Let's start with natural immunity.

00:40:38.480 Why and how did we get to the place of pretending that natural immunity means nothing?

00:40:44.720 That even those who have had COVID have to get the vaccine?

00:40:48.760 How did that happen?

00:40:51.760 That's a very good question.

00:40:53.240 And I don't know, because to me, as a public health scientist and somebody who's been working with vaccines for a long, long time, it's just stunning.

00:41:05.360 Two and a half thousand years ago, the Greeks, they knew that there were natural immunity.

00:41:09.720 So when they had an epidemic, they used people who had survived the disease to care for those who were sick, which was smart to do.

00:41:20.380 And I wish we were smart nowadays.

00:41:23.960 So it reminds me of any mother who's had a sick child over and over in their toddler years knows that she must have some sort of immunities because we don't get the virus over and over that our kids are getting.

00:41:38.800 Because, you know, for me, I'm 50 years old.

00:41:41.540 I've had a lot of viruses.

00:41:42.860 Now I'm immune.

00:41:43.760 And that's why, to your point, you can go in there and take care of your kids when they're sick over and over without getting it yourself.

00:41:50.920 Yeah.

00:41:51.440 And I mean, now we have vaccines for so many of our infectious diseases.

00:41:56.200 But if you go back to the grandmothers, they dealt with children who had chickenpox, who had mumps, rubella, et cetera.

00:42:09.060 And that was a part of life at that time.

00:42:11.760 Now it's not.

00:42:12.420 So maybe that has changed people not understanding natural immunity as much as we used to do.

00:42:20.380 But in the beginning, there was no reason to believe that COVID will not provide immunity for the future.

00:42:29.680 And now we have the scientific studies that shows that if you've had COVID, you have very good immunity, not only to actually COVID.

00:42:41.280 There has been a study out of Fred Hutchinson and Emory who shows that those who have recovered from COVID-19, they also have immunity against SARS-CoV-1.

00:42:52.800 So SARS-CoV-1 that we had earlier in this century, as well as immunity against the four common coronavirus that have been around for a long time.

00:43:07.720 I don't understand it.

00:43:09.740 I mean, other than does the CDC want to line the pockets of Pfizer and Moderna and J&J?

00:43:15.820 Because that that would make sense, right?

00:43:17.340 Just we want to get as many people getting vaccines and therefore these companies getting paid as possible.

00:43:24.140 Or they have a sincerely held belief that you can raise your immunity level from, I don't know, prevention of 80 percent to prevention 90 percent of the time.

00:43:34.560 If you just add on to your natural immunity with the vaccine.

00:43:38.360 I mean, what do you think is the reason they're essentially harassing people who have had COVID to not go in restaurants and not get on airplanes and not go into arenas if they don't get jabbed?

00:43:50.200 I don't know what the reason, because there's no public health reasons for it.

00:43:55.200 And it's also stunning that you have scientists who obviously understand this, but they're not speaking out about it.

00:44:01.920 I mean, we have had the virus for about almost two years now.

00:44:09.200 So we have very solid evidence that we have long term protection.

00:44:14.560 The vaccine hasn't been around, has been around for a year shorter.

00:44:19.180 So we have less evidence for the vaccines.

00:44:21.980 And you wouldn't normally for viruses, you would expect the vaccines to be not quite as good in terms of generating the same immunity as natural disease.

00:44:32.900 But this idea that people who have had COVID need to get vaccinated is very strange.

00:44:39.100 And it's also very damaging because there are places in this world where older people who need this vaccine because they are at high risk.

00:44:49.640 Everybody can get infected.

00:44:51.020 But there's a thousandfold difference in mortality between the oldest and the youngest.

00:44:54.420 So older people need the vaccines. 1.00

00:44:58.020 And there are many people in South Asia, in Africa, in South America, and so on, who has not received the vaccine.

00:45:06.800 So instead of vaccinated people in the U.S. and Europe who already had the disease and who are therefore immune, those vaccines should go to other countries.

00:45:16.600 Not to mention 12-year-olds now.

00:45:21.180 And younger, they're talking about getting it to five-year-olds at some point this fall or winter and beyond.

00:45:28.160 They don't need this.

00:45:29.780 They don't need it.

00:45:30.720 And I don't know, you tell me whether you think it's appropriate for them to even be, they haven't yet talked about mandating it for the young ones, but some of the schools are going to do that.

00:45:41.100 Yeah, that's wrong for a few reasons.

00:45:47.220 But if you say, look at the children, for children, COVID is less dangerous than the annual influenza.

00:45:58.360 Every year in the U.S., depending on the severity of the influenza, between 200 and 1,000 children die from influenza every year.

00:46:05.460 And that's, of course, very tragic.

00:46:06.620 In the U.S., so far, we've had, I think, 300-something reported COVID death among children.

00:46:16.640 But we don't even know how many of those are truly from COVID versus with COVID because CDC hasn't done the audit.

00:46:26.480 And John Hopkins professor Martin McCary wrote a very important, I think, op-ed.

00:46:32.480 And I think it was in Wall Street Journal, where he was arguing that CDC should make these audits to find out.

00:46:39.520 And they have thousands of employees, so it's not so difficult to do for them.

00:46:43.620 But they haven't done it.

00:46:44.740 And that's sort of surprising because that's sort of their job, I think.

00:46:47.800 But even if all of those were COVID deaths, it's still less than an average influenza season.

00:46:56.520 So the risk, the mortality risk for children, that they can get infected, most are asymptomatics and will be mildly asymptomatic.

00:47:04.320 Very few will be hospitalized and almost nobody would have mortality from this.

00:47:09.540 So it's very surprising that there's this push and drive to vaccinate children because we don't know enough about adverse reactions.

00:47:19.400 We know that myocarditis, which is that the vaccine causes myocarditis in young people.

00:47:27.180 But we don't yet know what exactly, we don't have a precise estimate of the risk for children of myocarditis as of yet.

00:47:35.900 Yeah, right. And I think that's a legitimate worry for parents, myocarditis.

00:47:41.760 I mean, families like my own, where we have a bad history, especially with the male population in my family, of heart disease and heart events.

00:47:49.620 And I don't want anything that's going to further potentially compromise my children's hearts when the risk on the other side is essentially a mild cold.

00:47:59.620 Yeah. And a good example is actually Sweden, because in the first wave in the spring of 2020, Sweden was the only major Western country who did not close the schools, where schools were open throughout the pandemic, throughout the height of that wave.

00:48:14.840 And there were, and this was done without any mask in the school, without social distancing in the schools.

00:48:25.600 Six children were told to go home, but there was no testing of the children.

00:48:33.040 And upon the 1.8 million children ages 1 to 15, both in preschool, daycare and schools, of those 1.8 million children in Sweden during that first wave, there were exactly zero deaths from COVID.

00:48:50.320 And there were a few hospitalizations, but not many, maybe half a dozen, two dozen.

00:48:56.700 So this is not a serious disease for children.

00:49:02.500 How the immune system works is when children are young, they are exposed to various viruses, and that builds their immune system that they rely on for the rest of their lives.

00:49:12.780 So I would say that with this pandemic, we're actually kind of lucky in the sense that it is not something that affects children very much.

00:49:22.600 Yeah.

00:49:23.160 Well, and now we've vaccinated 90% of the old people, 90% of the people over 65 in America have gotten at least one jab, 80%, and it's growing, have gotten double jabbed, so they're fully vaccinated.

00:49:38.500 So the most vulnerable population is protected, or if they haven't gotten the jab, there's a reason for it, right?

00:49:45.280 They've chosen they can't, and therefore they'll take the appropriate precautions, or they just don't believe in it, and that's freedom, that's their choice.

00:49:53.040 They'll live with the consequences one way or the other.

00:49:55.220 But what we're hearing from Fauci right now, this is a quote, is that the fact is, if you get infected, even if you are without symptoms, you very well may infect another person who may be vulnerable.

00:50:07.180 Okay, we know that's true.

00:50:08.000 But then he says, so in essence, you are encroaching on their individual rights.

00:50:15.000 So if you get it, if you've been vaccinated, but you get it, and you have the virus in your nose, and you give it to somebody else who is not vaccinated, Fauci's message is, you're encroaching on their individual rights.

00:50:30.200 How are we supposed to deal with that?

00:50:32.460 It's a very strange mindset.

00:50:37.720 We have lived with infectious diseases for hundreds and thousands of years.

00:50:44.400 And this idea that we blame the person who is infected another person, that's something that we should never, ever, ever do.

00:50:55.020 Infectious diseases is not about blame or fear.

00:50:59.100 So that's wrong thinking.

00:51:05.360 That's the only thing I can say about it.

00:51:07.540 Well, I mean, the unvaccinated are the ones who are getting sick, right? 1.00

00:51:10.520 It's the people who are vaccinated who are getting these breakthrough infections.

00:51:14.020 First of all, the numbers are very low, which you wouldn't know to watch the news right now.

00:51:17.780 Axios had a report pointing out that less than 0.1% of vaccinated Americans are testing positive for COVID-19.

00:51:27.380 So it's 164 million Americans have been vaccinated.

00:51:32.020 They say around 125,000 people have tested positive for breakthrough infections in about 38 states.

00:51:38.120 Again, that represents less than 0.08% of those who have been vaccinated and 0.001% have died.

00:51:47.980 So, you know, your risks of getting this thing, if you've been vaccinated, are still extremely low.

00:51:53.680 And then when you get it, your risks of getting seriously sick from it are even lower.

00:51:57.420 And your risk of dying if you've been vaccinated are next to nothing.

00:52:00.340 So this is about the people who have chosen not to get vaccinated, falling subject to the Delta variant.

00:52:07.280 And the CDC's messaging is somehow the rest of us who've been vaccinated have an obligation to protect them by masking up now, universal masking.

00:52:18.440 And your thoughts on that are what?

00:52:19.740 Well, if somebody doesn't want to get vaccinated, that's their own responsibility for doing that.

00:52:31.020 And if they're old, I think they've made a wrong decision. 0.69

00:52:33.720 But that's a decision that they can make.

00:52:36.300 But they shouldn't then demand that other people put masks on to protect them, especially since there's not much evidence about masks, actually.

00:52:46.120 So the key thing we should do is to encourage all people to get the vaccines.

00:52:53.740 If they got only one shot, they should be encouraged to get the second if it was Pfizer or Moderna.

00:52:58.880 And the way to do that is not through mandates or vaccine passports, because public health should be based on trust.

00:53:06.160 So they should be encouraged to do so.

00:53:09.380 And if there are people who want it, who haven't gotten it yet, maybe because they are homeless and so on, then we should have more outreach efforts to get the vaccines to them.

00:53:21.420 But to put masks on people or children, for example, that's not the right way to do this.

00:53:31.480 I saw you said something like you had an alternative way of referring to masks on children that you proposed.

00:53:38.600 What do you think people should be saying?

00:53:43.520 Children should not wear masks, I think, at all.

00:53:46.160 I don't think it's good for them.

00:53:49.740 If we look at, I mean, I know, for example, Fauci was arguing for it, but I think that was a triple stumble he made.

00:53:56.720 Because one, there is absolutely no evidence that masks works on children.

00:54:02.800 There is no scientific evidence.

00:54:05.480 Secondly, even if they did work, children are at a minuscule risk for mortality and very low risk from severe disease.

00:54:16.880 Third, they don't transmit it to other people.

00:54:21.420 They're not efficient transmitters to other people.

00:54:24.020 We know that the children do not transmit it very much.

00:54:26.480 So, for example, teachers are much more likely to get infected by a fellow teacher than by students.

00:54:32.720 So all those three things by itself would argue that we should not wear masks on children.

00:54:40.180 So I find it very, very surprising this push to mask children in schools.

00:54:46.100 You retweeted an op-ed calling for this change saying, instead of saying, wear a mask, we need to say, have their breathing obstructed.

00:54:56.080 Kids need to have their breathing obstructed in order to attend school, which is where they're going.

00:55:00.900 And to your point, Martin, they're saying now these teachers who refuse to go into the classroom saying it's too dangerous.

00:55:06.620 It's too dangerous.

00:55:07.700 And we need to be at the front of the line for the vaccines.

00:55:09.820 And everybody has to be vaccinated.

00:55:11.400 In New York City, 40 percent of the teachers have chosen not to be vaccinated.

00:55:15.740 Forty.

00:55:16.180 And the head of the teachers union, the second largest in the country, Randy Weingarten, is saying, we'll talk about it.

00:55:21.460 It should be a mandatory subject of negotiation, meaning that she wants money. 1.00

00:55:25.280 She's they're going to jack up the city to make it worth their while. 0.99

00:55:30.560 But they're well.

00:55:31.220 But these are the same teachers who refuse to do it.

00:55:33.820 And it's just one other point.

00:55:34.680 Jim Garrity of National Review had a great line who said, clearly, these educators were not all that worried about catching COVID.

00:55:40.700 But he says, apparently, the fear of COVID was just powerful enough to make returning to the classroom unthinkable, but not quite powerful enough to get them to get off their butts and go get vaccinated.

00:55:54.460 Yeah, I think that should teachers should be able to decide themselves if they want to be vaccinated.

00:55:59.280 So I don't think there should be compulsory vaccinations.

00:56:01.680 I don't believe in mandatory vaccination on COVID-19.

00:56:05.960 I think that's counterproductive.

00:56:08.580 Yeah.

00:56:08.700 I think if you force people to do something, then it's maybe likely that some people will be very suspicious and refuse it.

00:56:19.160 And we can see my name.

00:56:21.080 I'm from Sweden, my native country.

00:56:23.560 And Sweden has never had vaccine mandates for any vaccines.

00:56:27.300 And Sweden has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world.

00:56:30.420 And did very well with vaccinating older people with limited vaccine supplies.

00:56:35.700 So it's much better to have voluntary vaccinations.

00:56:41.640 And I think that those people who are pushing vaccine passports and vaccine mandates, they have done much more to damage the confidence in vaccines than the so-called anti-vaxxers have ever done in the last, over several decades.

00:56:57.260 So I've been working with vaccines for a long time.

00:56:59.660 I'm a huge fan of vaccines.

00:57:01.760 I think it's one of the greatest invention of mankind has saved so many lives from smallpox and onwards.

00:57:08.300 And we spent decades to build up a trust in vaccines through various monitoring, the safety and so on, and education.

00:57:22.860 And now, and there's been a small group of people, anti-vaxxers, who has been sort of arguing, but they haven't been successful because there is very high confidence in vaccines.

00:57:33.400 But now these, they call themselves pro-vaccine people, but I think they're actually more anti-vaccine because they are arguing for vaccine passports and vaccine mandates.

00:57:43.760 And that has, it's very counterproductive.

00:57:45.620 So they have done more damage to vaccine confidence than the anti-vaxxers ever did over a couple of decades.

00:57:53.780 Can we spend a minute on vaccines since you are an expert?

00:57:57.020 There's still so much hesitancy.

00:57:59.220 There's a belief, I know by many, that the vaccine could cause infertility in women in particular, but possibly in men as well.

00:58:08.960 Is there any reason to actually believe that?

00:58:11.820 I don't think there's any data on that as of yet.

00:58:17.240 But the key thing to remember is that when you have a new vaccine and when you have a new drug on the market, there are always questions about the safety.

00:58:28.760 For example, when the COVID vaccines came out, we didn't know about the myocarditis.

00:58:32.880 Now we do know that the vaccines causes myocarditis, and especially in younger men.

00:58:39.720 But we didn't know that in the beginning.

00:58:41.880 So when a new vaccine or new drugs comes from the market, there are questions and marks about the safety, which is why we monitor the safety.

00:58:50.800 And it takes a few years before we actually have a really good picture of that.

00:58:55.220 So if we look at the COVID vaccine, if you are, let's say, 75 years old, well, your risk from dying from COVID is quite high.

00:59:05.520 It's worse than the annual influenza.

00:59:07.260 So even if there's a small risk for some adverse reaction to the vaccine, it's still worthwhile for you to take the vaccines.

00:59:15.900 But you lower your risk of COVID quite a bit for a potential small increase risk for something else that we don't necessarily know about yet.

00:59:28.100 So there, I think it's a no-brainer.

00:59:30.780 If you're 75 years old, you should absolutely get the vaccine. 0.99

00:59:34.260 On the other hand, if you're 15 years old, your risk from dying from COVID is minuscule.

00:59:42.460 So then the thing is, even a small risk from a vaccine from myocarditis or something else can tip the balance so that it's no longer an advantage-benefit-risk ratio.

00:59:59.020 And that takes time to figure out exactly what those risks are.

01:00:05.540 So we shouldn't, at this point, I think, push vaccines on children.

01:00:10.020 We should certainly not mandate vaccines on anybody when we don't know exactly what the safety profile is of these vaccines.

01:00:17.360 Up next, we're going to talk about some testimonials from doctors in various places, like Louisiana, saying hospitals are starting to fill up.

01:00:24.380 And this is becoming an ongoing problem.

01:00:26.000 And what does Dr. Koldorf think about that?

01:00:29.160 And then I'll ask him about his experience on that CDC committee and why they bounced him off.

01:00:34.420 Unbelievable.

01:00:35.300 But first, we want to bring you a feature we have here on the MK Show called Asked and Answered, where we answer some of our listener mail.

01:00:42.400 And Steve Krakauer, who's our executive producer, culls through the many submissions to find a few that sound interesting.

01:00:49.120 And today, what's the one that we've chosen, Steve?

01:00:51.260 Yeah, Megan, this one came to us from questions at devilmaycaremedia.com.

01:00:55.920 Love the questions that we're getting in there.

01:00:57.420 So please keep them coming as well.

01:00:59.420 This one comes to us from Charlotte Ritter, who is in our younger demo, I would say.

01:01:03.880 She's going to be a high school sophomore next fall.

01:01:07.360 And she has a question.

01:01:08.320 She says, you have a lot of advice on how parents and teachers can handle the wokeness that has invaded our country and systems.

01:01:14.220 But how do you recommend students fight against the nonsense?

01:01:16.820 It's a good question, because I know a lot of students are worried about their grades.

01:01:20.880 You have far left teachers.

01:01:22.160 They reward thinking that mirrors their own.

01:01:24.900 You worry about getting into the right college.

01:01:27.040 I get all of that.

01:01:28.100 I've heard it all from students like you and their parents as well.

01:01:31.100 And I have a very good friend who's very well educated and wants her kids to be as well.

01:01:35.420 And she tells her kids, just go along.

01:01:38.420 You just while you're in school, you just yes, of course, whatever you think, because, you know, she just wants them to get into the best school possible.

01:01:44.540 And I get that.

01:01:45.580 I would say I don't agree.

01:01:47.320 It's not my approach to life.

01:01:49.400 And it's not really what I want my kids to do.

01:01:52.460 I think if you have a principle, you have to stand up for it.

01:01:54.580 I think you have to start practicing that early in life.

01:01:57.680 I don't think it gets easier.

01:01:59.060 I think it gets harder as time goes on.

01:02:00.780 And if you have a lifetime of saying what you actually feel supported by facts, you'll live sort of a I don't know, an ethical life.

01:02:10.700 Right.

01:02:11.080 That's true to who you are and your own values.

01:02:12.920 And I think understanding that it's dicey doing that in an environment in which they will be against you, right, especially the people in power over you will be against you.

01:02:21.180 I think it can be helpful to to use other people.

01:02:25.020 So, you know, whatever it is, like you might cite Abigail Schreier or you might cite Glenn Lowry or whoever, some sort of well-respected people in the field rather than putting it in your own words.

01:02:36.360 You can say, well, what do you think of whatever Coleman Hughes's assertion as follows about the police?

01:02:43.680 Or, you know, you could you could let's say you were talking about a Me Too issue and everybody was like, yes, you know, these people are all terrible and they deserve to lose their jobs.

01:02:51.640 You could say, what do you think about Megyn Kelly's assertion that as a Me Too participant, I guess you could say.

01:02:58.780 That, you know, this the movement's gone too far and that we've eroded due process to the point where the movement's lost credibility.

01:03:05.000 Right. So if you can sort of put it in the in the mouth of somebody who's lived it, somebody with credibility and take it away from you, Charlotte.

01:03:13.140 I think that can help because it's you're introducing ideas into the discussion as opposed to arguing your own personal viewpoint, which makes you a bigger target in an environment like that.

01:03:24.660 I think that's worthwhile. And I think it I think we're going to get back to the place where that kind of thing is OK.

01:03:31.340 I'm not saying you're going to win hearts and minds, but you might.

01:03:34.880 And what I have found is when you are the voice of reason in a situation like that, you do have secret.

01:03:40.560 But I don't know if I want to say admirers, but people who agree with you, secret allies who are so glad you did it.

01:03:47.680 And I think it's almost how a leader is born.

01:03:50.500 Right. It's just taking risks that other people are too afraid to take.

01:03:54.500 And let's say it does lead to a B plus instead of an A.

01:03:59.000 Right. Like what? Let's play that out. Where does that go?

01:04:01.660 So your grade point average is going to be a little lower. So you're not going to get into Harvard.

01:04:04.860 We shouldn't go there anyway, because if you're not woke, you're going to have a miserable experience at Harvard.

01:04:08.900 And you don't need to go to Harvard at all. I mean, are you dying to become an investment banker?

01:04:13.980 I guess it could be helpful or go on to med school.

01:04:16.900 Sure. OK, I guess that would increase your odds of getting in.

01:04:19.600 But why would you want to do those two things that becoming an investment banker is basically assuring yourself a lifetime at the office?

01:04:26.720 Yes, you get a big paycheck. When are you going to spend your money?

01:04:29.320 I just think reevaluate your life goals. Right.

01:04:31.980 Like, do you want to surround yourself with people who don't see the world at all the way you do and think you're a terrible person for the next eight years?

01:04:38.900 I wouldn't. I went to Syracuse undergrad in Albany Law School and it worked out fine.

01:04:43.800 Why? Because when I got there, I actually worked my butt off and that opens just as many doors, just as many doors.

01:04:49.600 If you work on your EQ, you work on your personality, you work on being well-rounded.

01:04:53.780 Those will open a lot of doors that just a high GPA won't. 0.95

01:04:56.600 So it's not all about pleasing some jerk teacher who's going to judge you for having a different viewpoint. 0.95

01:05:02.560 Some of it is about ethics, values and maintaining your full self. 0.96

01:05:07.640 So for whatever that's worth, that's what I'm going to tell my own kids and what I already have told my own kids.

01:05:11.660 And they they do speak up even now.

01:05:14.140 And I also think it's a personal test of courage in some ways.

01:05:18.380 But but be smart about it. 0.99

01:05:19.620 You know, you don't want to be a jerk and you don't want to be pushy about your worldview. 0.98

01:05:22.900 But delighting in the discussion of alternate ideas is a practice I recommend to everyone from the earliest age. 0.97

01:05:31.160 And if that's what you choose to do and somebody shames you for it, you write us back and we will shame them on this show.

01:05:37.640 Good luck, Charlotte. Good question.

01:05:39.800 Steve?

01:05:40.600 Yes. Keep them coming. Questions at devilmaycaremedia.com.

01:05:44.020 Or any of our social media.

01:05:45.520 We read Insta on every every place else, Twitter and sometimes get some good submissions there, too.

01:05:50.380 So more on that and hopefully from Charlotte later.

01:05:54.640 But first this.

01:05:59.860 Let's talk about 20 to 40, because if you're between the ages of 20 and 40, you're not in the high, high risk group or even 20 to 50, let's say.

01:06:07.440 Not the high, high risk group, but there is some risk.

01:06:10.000 And even now I heard there was a there was a clip online that went viral of a doctor out of Baton Rouge, Louisiana, a female doctor saying we the beds are filling up.

01:06:20.000 And she said there are no more beds for non covid emergency patients.

01:06:24.560 You know, people who have heart attacks and so on are getting I don't know if turned away is the right phrase, but they're they're struggling to find a place in these Louisiana hospitals for them.

01:06:33.380 And she said we're missing too many staff because of covid infections.

01:06:36.820 And this would be among younger staff.

01:06:39.880 Right. This is she's not talking about 70 year old nurses and doctors.

01:06:43.120 But her point is this Delta surge is having a very real effect in the hospitals that she sees.

01:06:48.720 She wants people to get vaccinated. 0.65

01:06:50.120 And I think that people in that age group are more thinking, I'm probably not going to die from it.

01:06:56.620 I don't know what the long term effects of the vaccine are.

01:06:59.160 I know women have talked about fertility. 1.00

01:07:02.260 And so what would you say to that group, 20 to 50 year olds who are not vaccinated, who are have the same concerns about we don't know the long term effects?

01:07:08.860 So in science, there are certain things we sort of do know, but there's also gray areas.

01:07:14.620 And I I strongly encourage people who are older people to get the vaccines. 0.83

01:07:20.780 I don't think children should get the vaccines, but there's the gray area between 20 and 50, where I think it has to be left to each person to make a decision, because we have a pretty good picture of what the risk from covid is.

01:07:36.260 But we don't necessarily have a good overall picture of what the benefit risk ratio is.

01:07:43.940 So if somebody wants to get the vaccine, I don't think they should be afraid of the vaccine.

01:07:49.700 But if somebody doesn't want to get it, I don't think we should hold that against them.

01:07:54.960 Now, if you work in a hospital or if you work in a nursing home and you're 25 years old, then I do think it makes sense to get the vaccine to protect the older people that you work with. 0.99

01:08:06.260 So I think that is and I think that's that's why health care personnel and nursing home staff were sort of priority when these vaccines were rolled out, not so much for their own protection, but to protect the people they work with.

01:08:20.940 So they're the vaccine mandates are spreading.

01:08:24.580 We just heard in New York that they're they're now saying that you're going to need proof of vaccination for indoor dining.

01:08:33.200 So you're not going to be able to go to a restaurant in New York City anymore unless you can prove you've been vaccinated.

01:08:39.760 Same for gyms.

01:08:42.160 It's growing.

01:08:43.220 I get your point.

01:08:44.240 I agree with you.

01:08:44.800 I don't like vaccine mandates either.

01:08:46.220 But as a practical matter, I feel like we're going to see more and more and more of them.

01:08:52.600 And I just wonder whether, you know, what would happen if there were something, a terrible long term effect of the vaccine that we haven't yet uncovered.

01:09:00.860 Right.

01:09:01.400 Like, do you have any concerns about that?

01:09:03.620 As somebody who's been dealing with vaccines for your for your professional life, do you worry that something's going to come out two, three years down the line?

01:09:12.360 It's going to really be a game changer on these things.

01:09:16.220 I'm not losing sleep over it, but of course, it can happen.

01:09:20.380 We have found a few different adverse reactions.

01:09:24.360 Luckily, they are very rare, not common, but there could be others that we haven't found yet.

01:09:32.460 There are certain types of adverse reactions that are easy to detect.

01:09:36.060 For example, we know anaphylaxis, which can happen after vaccines, and it usually happen within half an hour.

01:09:47.680 So those are very easy to detect.

01:09:49.400 But other things that happen later or that are more common thing, common disease outcomes, they are harder to pick up.

01:10:00.420 So they take longer to pick up.

01:10:01.740 So we don't know those things yet.

01:10:05.320 But I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

01:10:07.420 I wouldn't not get the vaccine because I was worried about it.

01:10:12.140 But if you if you've had COVID, I don't see any reasons to take even those small risks because you're going to have good immunity.

01:10:20.920 And more importantly, I think it's unethical for universities or restaurants or so to require vaccine mandates because, as I said, these vaccines are needed elsewhere in the in the in the in the developing world.

01:10:35.920 The other thing is, there may be there may be a long term effect of the vaccine that we don't yet know, but there may also be a long term effect of COVID.

01:10:42.200 So, you know, you have you do have to engage in a risk calculation on a personal basis.

01:10:48.440 Now, let me ask you about Delta, because they're saying that Delta peaked in India and in the UK pretty quickly.

01:10:55.260 It was basically over the course of a month.

01:10:57.300 It peaked and went away.

01:10:58.880 Do you think that's what's going to happen here?

01:11:01.080 Because I think folks are wondering how long we're going to be dealing with this very infectious Delta variant. 1.00

01:11:05.760 And as we go back into school and we go back into the cities after the summer, do you think it's going to look like it looked in April 2020 for the next 10 months?

01:11:18.280 No, but also the U.S. is such a big country, so the patterns are very different.

01:11:25.460 We're seeing increased cases in the southern parts of the United States, for example, but we're only seeing very modest increases in mortality there.

01:11:37.540 So it could very well be, I think, that in those states it's going to come down again, and it has already started to come down in some of them.

01:11:44.640 But then there might be other states where we will see an upsurge in the fall that would not surprise me in terms of cases.

01:11:54.320 On the other hand, the key thing is we should not worry about cases.

01:11:58.080 We should worry about the mortality.

01:12:00.520 And even if you are immune, you can still test positive, and therefore you officially are a case.

01:12:08.540 But in reality, you have no symptoms, only mild symptoms.

01:12:13.260 So what we have to worry about is the mortality.

01:12:16.260 So mortality has gone up a bit.

01:12:18.680 It's still at one-tenth what it was at the peak, but it's gone up a bit in the states.

01:12:23.260 How concerned are you about that?

01:12:25.840 At this point, I'm not concerned because July had the lowest since the pandemic started.

01:12:32.240 So even if it goes up a little bit, then it's going to go up and down.

01:12:37.560 There are certain seasonal patterns to this virus, and the seasonal pattern is different in different parts of the United States.

01:12:44.940 So it seems like the southern states have, in the summer months, an increase.

01:12:52.180 Yeah, because they're all indoors in the summer months, and we're all indoors in the colder months up here in the Northeast.

01:12:57.440 So yeah, it follows a certain pattern.

01:13:00.240 Can I ask you this, Martin?

01:13:01.280 If we put you in charge of COVID policy in the United States right now, what would you do?

01:13:05.620 I would remove vaccine mandates.

01:13:10.640 I would remove any mask mandates.

01:13:13.080 I would not have any lockdowns anymore.

01:13:16.540 I would try very hard to reach those older people who have not yet been vaccinated.

01:13:23.240 Try to encourage them to get vaccinated.

01:13:26.040 I think that is important.

01:13:31.320 And then the other thing that we have to deal with is, and I think that's the top priority now, because of the lockdowns, we have a backlog of other things for other health, for cancer, for cardiovascular disease, for diabetes, for mental health, and so on, for childhood vaccinations.

01:13:54.440 So if I were in charge, I would focus on catching up with all of those things, catching up with cancer treatments and cancer screenings, catching up with diabetes treatments, dealing with all the mental health issues that we're dealing with.

01:14:14.100 And it's not just a public health issue.

01:14:16.560 I think it's something we have to sort of take care of each other.

01:14:18.820 So it's not just the public health that has to deal with these mental health issues that we now have.

01:14:25.600 It's something that we have to try to help each other with, with neighbors and family members and colleagues at work and so on to help us all overcome those issues that we have seen now with these lockdowns.

01:14:40.820 So all that harms from the lockdowns is something that we're going to have to live with and die with for many years to come now.

01:14:47.660 Because, for example, if we didn't detect a cancer or if the cancer wasn't treated in time, most of those wouldn't have died in 2020, 2021, but they might die three or four years from now instead of living another 15, 20 years.

01:15:02.320 Can I just round back with you on masks for one second, because there has been an ongoing debate about whether they work as we bring back this, the CDC is recommending national mask mandates.

01:15:14.020 The former covid advisor to Joe Biden was on TV this week admitting that the masks we all wear, they don't work, that, you know, sort of the the garden varieties mask that we buy in any given store, that they don't work.

01:15:29.060 And here he is. Here's how he put it.

01:15:30.540 We know today that many of the face cloth coverings that people wear are not very effective in reducing any of the virus movement in or out.

01:15:37.800 Either you're breathing out or you're breathing in.

01:15:39.740 And so basically he went on to say without an N95, it's kind of pointless.

01:15:44.280 Do you agree with that?

01:15:45.960 Yeah. I mean, the most funny or ridiculous example is this winter I was skiing and the ski slopes require you to wear a mask.

01:15:54.580 Now, skiers often use masks in the winter just to keep warm.

01:16:01.340 And those ski masks were perfectly valid to to fulfill the mask mandate of the ski slope.

01:16:10.280 But these ski masks actually have holes for your mouth and for your nose so you can breathe properly through the mask.

01:16:16.280 So to me, that's the most ridiculous type of mask mandates that I have encountered.

01:16:22.780 So but but but yeah, I mean, in a hospital settings, the masks are very important in many ways, in many situations.

01:16:34.540 But the problem with masks in the community is not whether they work a little bit, a tiny bit or not at all.

01:16:42.340 So the key thing is also that a lot of people have been told that be safe, wear a mask.

01:16:49.220 And then they think that because they were wearing a mask and because everybody else were wearing a mask, they would be safe.

01:16:55.080 And they have people in their 70s or 80s going to the supermarkets because they think they are safe because everybody's wearing a mask.

01:17:03.040 So that's not true.

01:17:03.840 So so this public health message that masks will keep you safe have actually been very dishonest.

01:17:14.780 And I think a lot of people did not did not socially distance them or physically distance themselves sufficiently because they thought they'd believe this public health message is that masks kept them safe when they didn't.

01:17:28.760 So if you're a 75 year old and you haven't gotten the vaccine yet, you it is important to physically distance yourself so you don't expose to the virus from others.

01:17:40.700 But masks is not going to make it.

01:17:44.560 It's not going to make that difference.

01:17:46.120 You know, it's not going to keep you safe.

01:17:47.480 Only physical distance is going to keep you safe.

01:17:49.280 So don't go to a crowded space if you're old and haven't gotten the vaccine.

01:17:55.240 We're back with the end of our show in less than one minute.

01:17:58.760 Last thing I wanted to ask you about.

01:18:04.240 We've been following your work for a while here.

01:18:05.920 We love the Great Barrington Declaration where you actually you and some other very well respected doctors called for focused protection of older high risk people instead of these oppressive lockdowns, which caused incalculable harm around the globe.

01:18:20.080 Not just here in America.

01:18:21.320 You were a member of the CDC's scientific committee for evaluating side effects of the vaccinations until April of 2021.

01:18:30.980 And you had been critical of the pause in the J&J vaccine for older people saying that's not desirable.

01:18:38.520 It's not necessary.

01:18:40.300 In particular, you shouldn't be pausing it for older people.

01:18:44.540 And then I read that two days later you were removed, quote, for public statements you had made on policy opinion.

01:18:52.460 So did the CDC remove you because you objected to the pause in the J&J vaccine?

01:18:59.420 Yes.

01:19:00.380 Wow.

01:19:00.820 And I objected to the pause for those about 50.

01:19:03.640 I think for for people below 50, I think there was a good rationale for doing a pause.

01:19:08.180 But for those over 50, because there was absolutely no evidence that these blood clots were risk for older people and there was evidence that they were not at increased risk.

01:19:23.000 So and this J&J vaccine actually had a very important role because it's a one dose vaccine.

01:19:31.460 So for certain populations, which are harder to reach, less affluent people or people in very rural areas, which is difficult to go to the doctor, a one dose vaccine is quite an advantage to have.

01:19:47.460 So by pausing it, it made it more difficult to vaccinate older people who needed this vaccine.

01:19:55.020 And I think it undermined confidence in the vaccine.

01:19:58.020 I mean, that was kind of the end of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine for many.

01:20:00.340 Exactly. Exactly.

01:20:01.920 So that's very unfortunate, I think.

01:20:03.800 So I guess I'm in the usual position of having been removed from CDC committee for being too pro vaccine.

01:20:12.660 Well, and then four days later, the CDC once again allowed the J&J vaccine and Rochelle Walensky used your exact reasoning in reversing that decision.

01:20:23.100 So did they apologize to you?

01:20:24.840 Did they ask you to rejoin the committee?

01:20:26.240 No, but I was very happy to hear that four days later, they followed it.

01:20:31.460 Yeah.

01:20:31.740 So I was very happy to hear that.

01:20:33.200 That was the important thing.

01:20:35.920 Can you tell me, having been on that committee?

01:20:37.780 I don't know.

01:20:38.340 I feel like Rochelle Walensky is she is a true sky is falling type public health official.

01:20:44.480 I mean, she just seems to put the worst spin on everything.

01:20:47.360 She seems to assume disaster lurks around every corner.

01:20:50.640 And I've kind of stopped listening to her.

01:20:53.080 But what is your opinion of her and those making these decisions for us?

01:20:57.300 I think one important principle of public health is that one should not use fear and shame as a tool in public health.

01:21:12.040 One should base it on trust by giving honest assessment of public health issues, including vaccines.

01:21:20.640 And it's also important to let many different voices to be heard, because it's okay for scientists to sometimes have different views.

01:21:31.620 They see things from different perspectives.

01:21:33.680 But the key thing is then to let all the voices be heard and compare notes between what different scientists think.

01:21:41.720 So to remove certain scientists because they have a different opinion about some topic, I wouldn't do that, because as a scientist, those who think similar to me, I don't really need to listen to them, because I know what they think.

01:21:57.360 But the people who view things differently from me, those are the ones who are really interesting for me to listen to, because those are the ones I can learn something from or see from a different perspective.

01:22:06.800 And then I have to sort of see if my own views holds up or not after listening to them.

01:22:12.660 So I think it's more important to listen to the scientists who have different views than I have than it is to listen to those who have the same views that I have.

01:22:22.080 And that's not what they're doing right now?

01:22:24.620 I don't think so, unfortunately.

01:22:27.540 And it shows in the policy announcements that they're issuing for the rest of us.

01:22:32.460 Martin Koldorf, you've been wonderful.

01:22:33.880 Thank you so much for your honesty throughout this whole process and for being a voice of reason.

01:22:38.840 Well, thank you.

01:22:39.480 And it's been a great pleasure to be talking to you.

01:22:41.340 A delight.

01:22:41.980 Thank you.

01:22:46.340 Do not miss tomorrow's show.

01:22:48.640 I'm really looking forward to this.

01:22:50.020 We have Julie Kelly and Andy McCarthy on January 6th and these hearings that we've been watching.

01:22:56.680 Julie Kelly's been doing amazing work.

01:22:59.220 This woman has been following what's happened with the people who were arrested.

01:23:03.160 How long have they been held?

01:23:04.400 What kind of charges are they facing?

01:23:06.240 What sort of due process are they getting?

01:23:08.340 Why are so many being treated like they're 9-11 terrorists as opposed to trespassers who actually didn't wind up hurting anybody?

01:23:16.560 And what of those who did?

01:23:18.060 Andy McCarthy, too, has been doing great writing for National Review.

01:23:21.360 And I listen to his podcast, too.

01:23:22.640 There really were a lot of people there who tried to hurt police and did hurt police.

01:23:27.300 What should happen to them?

01:23:29.220 You know, they should have the book thrown at them.

01:23:31.780 So how are they being handled?

01:23:34.280 And where does this whole thing stand?

01:23:36.220 You know, we were told there was an insurrection.

01:23:37.940 Is that—do we see that in any of the charges?

01:23:40.820 Is that bearing out in the actual courtrooms?

01:23:43.500 Andy McCarthy with a truth bomb along with Julie Kelly in a show you do not want to miss.

01:23:47.220 Go ahead and subscribe to the show now so you don't.

01:23:49.240 Download it.

01:23:50.260 Give us a five-star rating while you're there and would love a review from you while you're on there.

01:23:56.440 So all that said, we'll see you tomorrow.

01:23:58.780 Same time.

01:24:00.740 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:24:02.880 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:24:07.440 The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.

01:24:17.220 The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.

The Megyn Kelly Show - August 03, 2021

Cuomo and COVID, with Janice Dean and Dr. Martin Kulldorff ｜ Ep. 139

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