The Megyn Kelly Show - Damning Report on Biden's Mental Fitness, and if Jeffrey Epstein Killed Himself, with Ben Shapiro, Mark Epstein, and Steve Krakauer

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00:00:30.680 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show,

00:00:32.540 live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.440 Hey, everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:44.180 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.760 It's Friday, and we have a massive show for you today.

00:00:48.680 Ahead, I'll be speaking with Jeffrey Epstein's brother,

00:00:51.460 Mark Epstein, who is here to release a never-before-seen,

00:00:55.420 rather gruesome, but important photo of Jeffrey Epstein.

00:01:00.300 Taken right after his death that he believes proves his brother did not commit suicide.

00:01:06.300 I've got to tell you, looking at the photo, I've got my own doubts as well.

00:01:11.000 I had him even before I saw the photo, but we'll go through it.

00:01:13.920 But first, Ben Shapiro is here to discuss the absolutely extraordinary event that we saw last night

00:01:20.900 and a potential breaking point for the Democratic Party with their nominee.

00:01:25.180 We on this show yesterday were talking about President Joe Biden's mental acuity

00:01:30.500 and the multiple instances over the years and lately of him seeming to falter.

00:01:36.000 Well, let's just say it happened again, and it's been happening a lot behind the scenes

00:01:41.460 in ways that even we did not expect.

00:01:44.260 The president holding a primetime news address last night to the nation, very rare for him,

00:01:48.620 to respond directly to Special Counsel Robert Herr's report on Mr. Biden's mishandling of classified documents.

00:01:56.340 The report hit late Thursday and recommended no criminal charges,

00:02:00.440 but Mr. Biden, who responded to the report with that live primetime address,

00:02:04.640 also widely misled the country about what was actually in that report,

00:02:09.720 and we do have a fact check.

00:02:11.780 In addition, and perhaps most notably, the report gave a damning account,

00:02:17.680 to put it gently, of the president's mental acuity in dealing with the special counsel.

00:02:24.640 It said Mr. Biden could not remember the year his son Bo died of cancer.

00:02:30.660 Quote, within several years, he could not state when Bo died.

00:02:35.000 And once asked during an interview with prosecutors, he asked them,

00:02:41.080 when did I stop being vice president?

00:02:44.560 A couple questions, at least in this report, according to the special counsel,

00:02:48.760 that Joe Biden asked about when he was vice president.

00:02:52.520 It wasn't a one-off.

00:02:54.360 Mr. Biden last night taking issue, at least with that allegation about Bo.

00:02:58.960 I know there's some attention paid to some language in the report about my recollection of events.

00:03:05.660 There's even reference that I don't remember when my son died.

00:03:11.840 How in the hell dare he raise that?

00:03:15.060 Frankly, when I was asked the question, I thought to myself, it wasn't any other damn business.

00:03:19.600 After he made that remark, Mr. Biden went on to talk about the rosary beads that he wears on his wrist to honor Bo.

00:03:29.420 Bo was wearing them when he passed.

00:03:31.640 But watch here.

00:03:32.880 It seemed clear, at least to me, that the president forgot where those beads were from when he was talking.

00:03:38.940 Let me tell you something.

00:03:39.980 Some of you have commented, I wear, since the day he died, every single day, the rosary he got from Our Lady of...

00:03:48.980 I remembered this from my own personal experience.

00:03:55.000 You can hear him trail off there.

00:03:56.940 The beads he was referencing are from Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico.

00:04:02.120 A fact I know because he shared it with me five years ago.

00:04:06.280 Tell us about the rosary beads on your wrist.

00:04:08.920 Well, um, I, uh, uh, Bo wore these, Hunt got these for Bo and me and, uh, at, uh, Our Lady of Guadalupe down in Mexico.

00:04:22.520 And I had visited there and, um, and we, and we all wore them.

00:04:28.740 That's five years ago.

00:04:30.560 He couldn't remember last night.

00:04:32.240 The reason it's relevant, of course, is because he was trying to rebut, while standing out there, accusations that he has forgotten major details around major events of his life, including the death of his son.

00:04:46.400 That one, not a major detail, but it speaks to his problem.

00:04:50.140 As so many of his statements last night did, speaking of Mexico.

00:04:56.740 After taking questions from the press, repeatedly raising his voice, misstating facts to reporters over and over, Mr. Biden then went to leave the room.

00:05:03.520 But in what one can only imagine was a move that actively stirred the nausea and nerves in the pits of the stomachs of his core supporters.

00:05:11.560 He came back to the microphone.

00:05:14.680 My God, the stress.

00:05:17.020 Only to then refer to Egypt's president, al-Sisi, as the president of Mexico.

00:05:24.300 As you know, initially, the president of Mexico, al-Sisi, did not want to open up the gate to allow humanitarian material to get in.

00:05:36.420 I talked to him.

00:05:38.000 I convinced him to open the gate.

00:05:40.620 Oh, my God.

00:05:42.320 That's the third time this week, for those of you counting, that he has publicly confused the identities of foreign leaders.

00:05:47.460 He also claimed on Wednesday that he had spoken to German Chancellor Helmut Kohl in 2021.

00:05:52.940 Mr. Kohl, by that point, had been dead for four years.

00:05:57.400 On Sunday, he said at a campaign event in Vegas that he had recently had a chat with Francois Mitterand of Germany.

00:06:03.720 Mr. Mitterand, of course, was the president of France, not Germany.

00:06:07.160 And much like Helmut Kohl, is no longer alive.

00:06:10.880 Dead for almost 30 years, in fact, and was not recently speaking to Joe Biden.

00:06:15.040 Yesterday, he also referred to red states and green states and mumbled through a remark we think was about Roe v. Wade.

00:06:25.820 He said, when I pushed all these programs, I said, I'm going to be a president for everybody who lives in a red state or a green state.

00:06:32.120 Making Roe v. Wade were the law of the land.

00:06:37.160 The law of the land.

00:06:38.240 Roe v. What? Who? Ward?

00:06:42.900 An unnamed Democratic ally of Mr. Biden told NBC that yesterday was, quote, the worst day of his presidency.

00:06:48.980 And already there are Republican calls to invoke the 25th Amendment, which allows a sitting president to be removed for incapacity.

00:06:55.380 Joining me now, Ben Shapiro, editor emeritus of The Daily Wire and host of The Ben Shapiro Show, who has a very well-timed series on The Daily Wire right now called The Divided States of Biden.

00:07:10.240 Remember how he was going to be so unifying?

00:07:12.340 Anyway, Ben took a look.

00:07:13.920 Ben, great to have you.

00:07:15.120 What did you make of that event last night?

00:07:20.120 That was the challenger explosion of press conferences.

00:07:22.400 I mean, it truly was the worst press conference I have ever seen by far.

00:07:27.160 I've been watching these things for well over 20 years at this point.

00:07:29.860 And obviously, I've watched a lot of tape.

00:07:31.420 That was horrendous.

00:07:34.080 I'm well-meaning.

00:07:35.360 I'm an elderly man.

00:07:36.600 And I know what the hell I'm doing.

00:07:37.780 I've been president.

00:07:38.480 I put this country back on its feet.

00:07:40.820 I don't need his recommendation.

00:07:42.320 How bad is your memory?

00:07:44.280 And can you continue as president?

00:07:46.620 My memory is so bad, I let you speak.

00:07:49.080 Do you know your memory has gotten worse, Mr. President?

00:07:51.700 My memory has not gotten worse.

00:07:53.160 My memory is fine.

00:07:54.860 My memory, take a look at what I've done since I've become president.

00:07:58.060 None of you thought I could pass any of the things I got past.

00:08:00.760 How'd that happen?

00:08:02.280 You know, I guess I just forgot what was it.

00:08:03.740 When you were asked about your age, you would respond with the words, watch me.

00:08:08.260 Many American people have been watching, and they have expressed concerns about your age.

00:08:13.460 That is your judgment.

00:08:14.720 That is your judgment.

00:08:16.460 That is not the judgment of the press.

00:08:18.620 Not just was it horrendous, it was on purpose, meaning he didn't have to do a press conference

00:08:25.320 last night.

00:08:26.340 The entire purpose of the presser was to dissuade Americans that the special counsel was right

00:08:30.880 about his state of mind and his mental acuity, as you say.

00:08:33.840 And so he calls this press conference.

00:08:35.220 It's 7.45 at night, so he doesn't even have the excuse of saying it's super late at night,

00:08:38.880 I was really tired or something.

00:08:39.940 He calls it at 7.45 at night, which actually is usually after he calls a lid.

00:08:43.400 Usually he calls the lid like 7 p.m. at a maximum.

00:08:45.940 So he wanders out about 7.55.

00:08:48.860 He doesn't look like he kind of knows what he's doing.

00:08:50.940 He starts off hot for maybe a minute and a half.

00:08:52.960 I mean, I literally played on my show the entirety of the press conference to show how

00:08:57.480 even over the course of 10 minutes, he degrades.

00:08:59.980 I mean, it's an insane thing.

00:09:01.440 The first minute and a half, he is reading off the teleprompter, and then he starts to

00:09:05.720 pretty obviously fall apart.

00:09:08.020 And as you mentioned, he completely wrecks himself over the question of where he his

00:09:13.980 son's rosary is from.

00:09:16.000 Again, that is a self-own.

00:09:17.280 Nobody even asked him about it.

00:09:18.560 And he's and he's offering that up and then failing.

00:09:20.320 And then he wanders away and then he wanders back.

00:09:23.100 And then he makes the mistake mixing up El-Sisi of Egypt with Amlo of Mexico, which, I mean,

00:09:29.680 for the record, might explain why we have an open border.

00:09:31.380 He's asking the wrong guy to close the border.

00:09:32.860 He just keeps calling up El-Sisi and saying, shut the border.

00:09:34.900 And El-Sisi's like, I am shutting the border, but he means the Gaza border.

00:09:38.560 It's I mean, what what what a complete disaster area for the president.

00:09:42.740 It's hard to see, frankly, how he survives this.

00:09:46.320 The media basically now have a choice.

00:09:47.780 The media can either openly report what's going on.

00:09:50.500 And every day from now until the election will be a question about his mental state.

00:09:55.400 I mean, it should have been already, obviously.

00:09:56.880 And as I've been saying for several years at this point, really, since he ran again in 2020,

00:10:01.100 I've been saying that watching a press conference with Joe Biden is like watching one of the

00:10:04.680 Walenda brothers trying to cross a volcano on a tightrope because it might be the moment

00:10:08.640 that he falls off the tightrope into the volcano.

00:10:10.440 And last night he fell off the tightrope into the volcano.

00:10:13.440 The only question is why the Democratic Party is so convinced that they can beat Donald Trump

00:10:17.220 with literally a person who is not mentally there that they decide to stick with him rather

00:10:21.800 than tossing him overboard or whether it just happens that Joe Biden picked the single best

00:10:25.800 presidential insurance anyone could ever pick by making Kamala Harris's vice president.

00:10:29.380 Because if the Democratic Party looks at the person backing him up, they think, well,

00:10:33.560 here we have a senile old man who can't hold it together for more than about four minutes

00:10:37.120 at a stretch.

00:10:37.760 But backing him up, we have the single most unpopular politician in American life.

00:10:41.560 Maybe that was the only clever mood that Biden has made during his presidency and pre-presidency

00:10:45.600 was picking Kamala Harris to back him up so that the incentive structure is you have to

00:10:49.140 keep him in place.

00:10:49.660 You have no joys.

00:10:50.780 It actually was pretty brilliant if that was the long game.

00:10:52.940 He knew because according to the special counsel report, he's been going downhill for quite some

00:10:57.180 time.

00:10:57.600 It's not it's not anything new just for the audience at home.

00:11:01.180 You know, there's there's the double whammy in this report.

00:11:03.540 Number one, he did have classified documents unsecured in various locations in his house.

00:11:08.260 The very thing that Trump is accused of doing.

00:11:10.540 Yes, Trump is accused of doing more than that, namely obstructing attempts to retrieve the documents

00:11:14.960 when the feds came calling.

00:11:16.300 But on the core offense, these two men are accused of doing the same thing, taking a bunch of classified

00:11:20.800 documents home to their houses, keeping them in unsecured locations, including those marked

00:11:24.920 classified or highly classified.

00:11:26.460 So that's the first sin.

00:11:27.840 And the second is the shots that the special counsel took at Joe Biden and the explanation

00:11:33.160 of why, despite the fact that he had done some of the same things as Trump, he didn't

00:11:38.660 think charges could be brought.

00:11:40.420 And that is what's caused all the consternation.

00:11:43.720 To me, it's like the stuff he wrote about Biden's memory is even bigger than the classified

00:11:47.140 documents stuff, because I did not expect the classified documents stuff to lead to an indictment.

00:11:51.720 So here's what he writes in part.

00:11:55.480 This is in the special counsel report.

00:11:57.420 Mr. Biden's recorded conversations with his ghostwriter, Mark Zwanitzer from 2017, are

00:12:04.400 often painfully slow with Mr. Biden struggling to remember events and straining at times to

00:12:10.100 read and relay his own notebook entries.

00:12:12.860 In his interview with our office, Mr. Biden's memory was worse.

00:12:16.100 He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview

00:12:21.620 when his term ended, quote, if it was 2013, when did I stop being vice president, end quote,

00:12:29.600 and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began, quote, in 2009, am I still

00:12:37.340 vice president, end quote, he did not remember even within several years when his son Bo died

00:12:44.320 and concluded here, Ben, this is important.

00:12:47.820 We have considered, in addition to the rest, that at trial, Mr. Biden would likely present

00:12:53.320 himself to a jury, as he did during our interview of him, as a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly

00:12:58.100 man with a poor memory.

00:12:59.860 My God.

00:13:00.980 Based on our direct interactions with and observations of him, he's someone for whom many jurors would

00:13:04.900 want to identify by with a reasonable doubt.

00:13:08.300 It would be difficult to convince a jury that they should convict him by then a former president

00:13:12.160 well into his eighties of a serious felony that requires a mental state of willfulness.

00:13:15.900 Now, I want to, there's a lot to dissect there, including the left spin on all of this today

00:13:22.120 is that was all gratuitous.

00:13:24.860 He did not have to add the stuff about the memory.

00:13:27.920 That's just him taking a shot, inappropriate shot at Joe Biden, much as Comey, in their view,

00:13:33.460 who unfairly took shots at Hillary Clinton.

00:13:36.360 But, I mean, you're a lawyer.

00:13:37.600 I'm a lawyer.

00:13:39.000 The guy makes clear why he's mentioning the memory lapses, because he's assessing how this

00:13:44.760 case would go were he to get it in front of a jury.

00:13:47.720 That's literally the only excuse he has for not prosecuting, because one of the things that

00:13:51.980 Joe Biden actually did in this case, if you read the entire document, which I spent the

00:13:55.880 time to do yesterday, if you actually read the entire document, one of the things that is

00:13:59.640 very clear, is that Joe Biden did the criming on tape.

00:14:01.920 I don't know why it is that politicians violate the first law of criming, which is don't crime

00:14:05.180 on tape, but Joe Biden literally did the crime on tape.

00:14:08.600 He's talking to his ghostwriter, and he literally says, just a minute, I just found the classified

00:14:14.740 documents downstairs.

00:14:16.680 He literally says that on tape.

00:14:18.180 I mean, that's in the actual report.

00:14:20.460 And so what the prosecutor has to come up with is, how can he say that, and then simultaneously

00:14:24.720 claim that he wasn't mishandling classified documents?

00:14:26.580 In other words, that's an admission that he knows they're classified documents, and second,

00:14:30.260 that they are where they're not supposed to be, right?

00:14:32.680 And so what the prosecutor has to come up with is some justification for why that doesn't

00:14:36.180 end in the criminal prosecution of the president of the United States.

00:14:39.100 And what he comes up with is, there's no way we can win this at trial, because he's just

00:14:42.220 going to claim that he doesn't remember any of this, and that he didn't remember it at

00:14:44.880 the time, that he's been in a downward mental spiral the whole time.

00:14:47.660 So obviously, it's relevant to the question.

00:14:49.880 Beyond that, this dog isn't going to hunt.

00:14:51.500 This is a special counsel who's appointed by the president of the United States' attorney general.

00:14:55.560 So in other words, the person who's working for your own DOJ says that you don't have

00:15:00.000 the mental acuity to be president, and you're going to claim that he is somehow, what, a

00:15:03.480 deep state agent?

00:15:04.240 I've heard that song and dance before.

00:15:05.640 And what I've been told by the media and by Joe Biden is that if you even say things like

00:15:09.300 that, that that is an act of de facto treason.

00:15:11.960 And if you talk about the deep state and lifelong appointees to these sorts of offices, well,

00:15:16.560 that means that you are doubting the system of American government.

00:15:19.380 So any way you turn, Biden is boxed in here.

00:15:21.800 Some of the other defenses that you're hearing, that he tried to trot out last night that when

00:15:25.620 he did the interview with the special counsel, it was the day after October 7th, and therefore

00:15:29.580 he wasn't all with it, which, I mean, that's worse.

00:15:32.260 We hire you to do the job predicated on the idea that as president, you're going to face

00:15:37.140 international emergencies.

00:15:38.640 If your answer to that is, I faced an international emergency and suddenly forgot when I was vice

00:15:42.780 president and when my son died, that's not exactly going to quiet the critics.

00:15:47.200 That was one that you heard Rachel Maddow last night claiming that, well, at least he can

00:15:50.860 still ride a bike, which, um, by the way, he can't literally fell off his bike.

00:15:54.520 Like there's just no place to turn here for Joe Biden.

00:15:58.060 And that is why, you know, honestly, this, this election, election 2024 is basically both

00:16:03.560 parties have the same slogan, which is, well, at least it's not that guy.

00:16:06.840 And I don't know that that's going to work for Joe Biden, especially because Democrats

00:16:10.560 entire claim about Trump is that Trump is orange hitler.

00:16:13.420 He's going to destroy democracy.

00:16:14.900 That the Biden is the only one standing in the door preventing all of that from happening.

00:16:18.520 If they really believe that, shouldn't they dump him overboard for somebody who has, you

00:16:23.000 know, any elements of vigor and doesn't seem like he needs to be put to bed by the night

00:16:26.960 nurse at 6 30 PM after an early bird dinner at Denny's?

00:16:30.240 No, it's definitely tapioca and Matlock time.

00:16:33.240 I mean, that's the obvious conclusion in reading this report.

00:16:36.660 And yet what you have all over the internet today is spin, spin and more spin.

00:16:42.660 Jim Messina, uh, who ran Obama's first campaign.

00:16:45.920 And here's a couple from him.

00:16:47.800 We've got to stop treating a single line in a gratuitously long, heavily editorialized

00:16:52.140 special counsel's report in which no crime was found, by the way, by a partisan Republican

00:16:56.400 investigator.

00:16:57.080 Like it's a bigger liability than Trump's 91 criminal charges and being found liable for

00:17:02.300 rape.

00:17:03.080 And he had more along those lines, Ben.

00:17:05.060 I mean, he, he was spinning like, you know, the spin master last night.

00:17:08.480 And the thing that he's either missing intentionally or not is, um, the reason it's not that this

00:17:15.400 single line in the report is changing Biden's trajectory.

00:17:19.420 It's because it affirms, confirms and dovetails perfectly with the American public's preceding

00:17:26.480 perceptions of Joe Biden.

00:17:27.960 The NBC news poll just out showed 77% of the electorate has either moderate or major concerns

00:17:35.320 about his mental acuity.

00:17:36.560 That's why it's so damning.

00:17:38.980 Of course, it's all confirming, as you say.

00:17:41.300 And, and last night, Joe Biden in the middle of this press conference.

00:17:43.860 So first of all, yeah, I don't tend to like to sort of analyze politicians based on their

00:17:48.660 affect because I'm more interested in what they say and what they do than sort of how

00:17:51.860 they look while they're doing it.

00:17:52.840 But the entire purpose of that press conference was to project an affect.

00:17:56.160 It was to project the affect that he is with it, that he's vigorous, that he's vital,

00:17:59.640 that he still knows what's what's going on.

00:18:01.260 He looks physically wounded by reporters shouting at him questions, which is sort of the norm

00:18:05.600 in a press scrum like that.

00:18:06.980 I mean, he basically, he begged for it.

00:18:08.280 He came back for a second helping of it.

00:18:10.180 And, and one of the things that he said in the middle of that is one of the, one of the

00:18:13.080 members of the press corps asked him about the fact that Americans are deeply concerned

00:18:17.060 about his mental acuity.

00:18:18.740 And his answer to that was, well, just you, you don't speak for the press.

00:18:21.880 But that, of course, is a lie.

00:18:23.440 I mean, first of all, she may not speak for the press, but she's speaking for the American

00:18:26.820 people.

00:18:27.180 The polling numbers suggest that he is of deep concern in terms of his ability to even do this

00:18:32.860 job.

00:18:33.560 How Kamala Harris doesn't become the center of this campaign from here on out, even if

00:18:36.400 Biden remains the nominees beyond me.

00:18:38.260 I just, would you put, would anyone put money on Joe Biden surviving a second term in office?

00:18:42.420 We're in February right now.

00:18:44.040 What is it?

00:18:44.400 What is this campaign going to do to him between now and November?

00:18:47.740 And now, again, I think Republicans can get pretty sanguine about this.

00:18:50.140 They can say, okay, well, that means that Trump is going to win.

00:18:52.220 I'd just like to remind my Republican friends that John Fetterman is currently a senator from

00:18:56.580 Pennsylvania after suffering a debilitating stroke.

00:18:59.280 So it doesn't mean that Biden couldn't win even in the state that he currently is.

00:19:03.500 What it does mean is that if you're a Democrat, do you want to, like right now, they could

00:19:07.160 make a call.

00:19:07.740 They could pull their guy.

00:19:08.880 And theoretically, they could pull Kamala Harris too.

00:19:11.140 And that is well within the remit of the Democratic Party.

00:19:13.800 They do have a lot of power, a lot more power over their candidates than Republicans do over

00:19:17.100 their candidates, obviously.

00:19:19.020 You could see a world where they pull the man and say, okay, we got to substitute somebody

00:19:22.280 else in there.

00:19:23.180 Do they have the actual stones to do it?

00:19:24.900 I really don't think so.

00:19:26.080 I think this is the problem for the Democratic Party.

00:19:27.940 They pull Biden, they open a massive can of worms.

00:19:31.560 Well, that's one of the questions I had as I watched it last night, which was, is this

00:19:35.680 intentional?

00:19:36.840 Because when have we seen him out there dealing with the press on his own without a handler,

00:19:41.420 whether it's the Easter bunny or an actual press communications person managing who's going

00:19:47.300 to get to ask him how many questions or wrapping him, getting him off stage?

00:19:51.180 He was out there alone.

00:19:52.800 And I cannot imagine his top people thought it was a good idea for at nine o'clock at night,

00:19:59.540 Mr. I put a lid on everything at 4 p.m.

00:20:01.780 every day to go out there live and try to prove how sharp he is mentally.

00:20:07.020 We know we know from behind the scenes reports, as well as what we see on camera, he's not.

00:20:11.000 So it did make me wonder, is this him overruling the staff or is this the staff saying go right

00:20:18.200 ahead because they realize there's an obligation to let the country see what's happening?

00:20:23.620 I mean, so I jokingly tweeted last night, Kamala Harris in the conservatory with the wrench.

00:20:28.560 You know, like person, person who is, you know, getting getting the most play out of this,

00:20:33.500 obviously, is Kamala, whose name is never mentioned outside of bad circumstances.

00:20:36.460 But, you know, my gut tells me that what happened here is that Joe Biden overruled his staff.

00:20:41.300 My guess is that his staff told him you cannot go out there under any circumstances.

00:20:44.500 You cannot do it.

00:20:45.120 And he gets insulted.

00:20:46.300 He gets his back up.

00:20:47.560 You know, the special counsel suggests that he is sort of a well-meaning, kindly, elderly

00:20:51.820 fellow with a bad memory.

00:20:53.080 And Joe Biden signally proved that he is not, in fact, a kindly gentleman.

00:20:57.140 Right.

00:20:57.260 He didn't he didn't assuage anybody's concerns about his memory or his acuity, but he certainly

00:21:01.780 assuaged people's concerns about whether he's a nice person or not.

00:21:04.560 He came out kind of yelling and screaming at the press.

00:21:07.200 And the reality is that behind closed doors, apparently, that's what he is.

00:21:10.160 So it would not shock me at all.

00:21:11.860 It would seem, in fact, most probable likelihood that what happened is that behind closed doors,

00:21:15.940 he got this report.

00:21:16.980 He was insulted by the report.

00:21:18.580 He didn't understand why people were saying that he's not with it anymore.

00:21:21.500 He spent his entire career scheming to get to the place where he currently is, you know,

00:21:25.080 like a vast number of politicians.

00:21:27.380 And he's so deeply insulted.

00:21:28.820 He thought, I'm going to go out there and I'm going to show the world.

00:21:30.700 And instead, he just proceeded to step in a bear trap of his own making.

00:21:33.280 Here's here's one of those moments that you just made a reference to in SOT 6.

00:21:37.720 Take a listen here.

00:21:38.580 Mr. President, for months when you were asked about your age, you would respond with the

00:21:43.160 words, watch me.

00:21:44.440 Many American people have been watching and they have expressed concerns about your age.

00:21:49.380 That is your judgment.

00:21:50.880 That is your judgment.

00:21:52.580 That is not the judgment of the press.

00:21:56.060 All right.

00:21:56.660 It's yet another mistake.

00:21:57.800 I think you meant to say public.

00:21:59.400 He did.

00:21:59.920 No one cares what the judgment of the press is.

00:22:01.660 And by the way, the judgment of the press is very clearly he's great.

00:22:04.180 He's fine.

00:22:04.860 Nothing to see here.

00:22:05.760 But the judgment of the public, as we just went over, is nearly 80 percent have deep

00:22:09.980 concerns.

00:22:11.000 So the question, Ben, now is.

00:22:13.580 Now what?

00:22:14.880 Right.

00:22:15.260 You've got Claudine Tenney.

00:22:17.620 She's a Republican from New York, which is always interesting because that's not like

00:22:20.240 the deep, deep red state Republicans.

00:22:21.740 But she's already calling for 25th Amendment that the administration's got to explore this.

00:22:26.840 He's he's incapacitated.

00:22:28.600 We went back and and looked.

00:22:30.420 I mean, almost as soon as Trump started challenging the election results in November 2020, 25th Amendment

00:22:37.580 is incapacitated.

00:22:39.060 He doesn't have the mental acuity to do this anymore.

00:22:40.980 Obviously, the man's lost his marbles.

00:22:42.940 Those same characters are not calling for 25th Amendment now.

00:22:45.820 But look, 25th Amendment with 20 with nine months to go, I think you could make a case

00:22:51.020 it's necessary.

00:22:51.900 I don't know about you, but I did not go to bed feeling safe last night.

00:22:54.380 I really didn't.

00:22:55.580 And I'm like if I were in Taiwan, I'd be scared as hell right now looking at that president

00:23:00.720 as a potential deterrent against Xi.

00:23:03.420 But the reality is we have an election coming up and there's an easier way of shepherding

00:23:07.940 him out the door.

00:23:08.560 So what do you think comes next?

00:23:10.460 I mean, his own cabinet is not going to 25th Amendment him.

00:23:12.820 That would be a tacit admission that they had shoveled onto the stage a person who was

00:23:17.080 not presidential timber in 2020.

00:23:19.760 I mean, one of the things that's amazing about the special counsel report, you read the section

00:23:22.540 where they say that even in his interviews with his ghostwriter from 2017, he was fading.

00:23:26.740 And it was three years after that that he ran for president of the United States.

00:23:29.260 So I don't think that that's a realistic scenario.

00:23:31.320 They're not going to 25th Amendment him.

00:23:33.140 The only question right now is whether he will resign for the overall good of the election.

00:23:38.480 Again, I don't think he will.

00:23:39.800 I think that, you know, everybody has been wondering since we since we entered the post

00:23:44.920 Obama era, you know, who's writing this show?

00:23:47.380 I have to say the writing this season of Trump is just off the wall.

00:23:50.160 This is like this is the revitalization of the of the Trump show.

00:23:53.980 And I can't tell whether the season is good or bad.

00:23:55.920 It's kind of like the last season of Game of Thrones until we get to the conclusion of

00:23:59.160 this thing.

00:23:59.620 But yeah, I think that the grand assumption, which is that this can't continue the way

00:24:03.400 that it is, is wrong.

00:24:04.180 I think it absolutely can continue the way that it is.

00:24:07.580 They're going to hide him in the basement.

00:24:08.620 The actual predictable result of this is less Joe Biden.

00:24:12.020 You're just going to get him hiding in the basement from now until the election cycle.

00:24:15.020 And you're going to get Trump, who should actually hide in the basement if he wishes

00:24:18.020 to win reelection, probably not hiding in the basement.

00:24:21.160 And it's going to be a long election cycle.

00:24:23.620 I actually don't think that they're going to pull him because I don't think they can

00:24:27.220 convince him to pull himself, actually.

00:24:29.680 That's clear.

00:24:30.320 All right.

00:24:30.560 No, we have a little fact check for the audience because we did go through some of the nonsense

00:24:34.020 claims regarding the special counsel's report.

00:24:36.500 I'm just going to go through them quickly.

00:24:37.460 He misled the nation on key elements of the special counsel's report.

00:24:41.120 Here's one example.

00:24:41.860 I've seen the headlines since the report was released about my willful retention of documents.

00:24:48.820 This, these assertions are not only misleading, they're just plain wrong.

00:24:53.060 On page 215, if you had a chance, I know it's a long, it's a thick document.

00:24:58.020 On page 215, the report of the special counsel found the exact opposite.

00:25:02.000 Here's what he wrote.

00:25:02.600 There is, in fact, a shortage of evidence that I willfully retain classified materials related

00:25:08.740 to Afghanistan.

00:25:10.400 On page 12, the special counsel also wrote for another documents.

00:25:15.200 The decision to decline criminal charges was straightforward.

00:25:19.260 The evidence suggests that Mr. Biden did not willfully retain these documents.

00:25:23.140 He's misleading you.

00:25:25.920 In certain parts of the report, the special counsel found Mr. Biden may not have realized

00:25:30.380 folders contain national defense information.

00:25:33.100 And if that's the case, that he then would not have willfully retained such info.

00:25:38.100 But the special counsel makes it clear in the second paragraph of the report that, quote,

00:25:42.560 our investigation uncovered evidence that President Biden willfully retained and disclosed

00:25:47.580 classified materials after his vice presidency when he was a private citizen.

00:25:52.680 Done.

00:25:53.780 The president also misled on the following.

00:25:56.640 I did not share classified information.

00:25:59.980 I did not share it.

00:26:01.140 With your ghostwriter.

00:26:01.740 With my ghostwriter.

00:26:02.480 I did not.

00:26:03.200 Guarantee you did not.

00:26:04.460 Well, no, they did not say that.

00:26:08.100 OK, it didn't say that you shared classified information, not with your ghostwriter.

00:26:12.700 The report actually found, quote, Mr. Biden sometimes skipped over presumption, presumptively

00:26:18.200 classified material and warned his ghostwriter that the entries might be classified.

00:26:21.740 But at least three times, Mr. Biden read from classified entries allowed to his ghostwriter

00:26:28.820 nearly verbatim.

00:26:30.040 By the way, the ghostwriter was told to turn over the tapes that he had of Mr. Biden doing

00:26:35.820 all that, and he deleted the tapes after the investigation began.

00:26:40.660 They considered charging him criminally.

00:26:42.500 Real question as to why he didn't get charged.

00:26:45.500 Why is Trump's right hand man, Walt Natua, facing all these charges?

00:26:49.340 But the ghostwriter who's destroying tapes when he knows that there's an investigation

00:26:53.600 underway.

00:26:54.380 A different story.

00:26:55.340 I'd love to get an answer to that.

00:26:56.960 And then there was this claim.

00:26:57.800 I didn't know how half the boxes got in my garage until I found out staff gathered them

00:27:04.360 up, put them together and took them to the garage of my home.

00:27:07.800 And all the stuff that was in my home was in filing cabinets that were either locked or

00:27:11.960 able to be locked.

00:27:13.040 It was in my house.

00:27:14.260 It wasn't out in like in Mar-a-Lago in a public place where and none of it was high classified.

00:27:20.600 Didn't have any of that red stuff on it.

00:27:22.440 You know what I mean?

00:27:22.840 Around the corners.

00:27:24.000 None of that.

00:27:24.580 However, according to the report, among the places Mr. Biden's lawyers found classified

00:27:30.660 documents was a damaged open box in his garage.

00:27:34.440 Look at this picture.

00:27:35.840 Is it possible the president had these documents under lock and key at some point?

00:27:39.300 I guess so.

00:27:40.260 But they weren't here.

00:27:41.960 So once again, he's misleading.

00:27:43.960 And all of this will be ignored, Ben, because we're supposed to just believe it's totally

00:27:48.540 different.

00:27:49.020 Trump is worse.

00:27:49.760 The special counsel pointed out that Trump is worse, which I concede.

00:27:52.320 The special counsel did point that out on the document retention and production once

00:27:56.480 subpoenas have been issued.

00:27:58.300 But that doesn't excuse what Joe Biden did, because he's been out there for years now since

00:28:03.360 Trump got in trouble, telling us how horrific he finds this.

00:28:08.000 That's right.

00:28:08.460 I mean, so there are a few charges that President Trump is facing in the classified documents

00:28:11.540 case.

00:28:11.960 Some are obstruction charges and some are mishandling classified documents charges.

00:28:15.640 The sort of distinction between the two would only be with regard to obstruction.

00:28:20.380 It would only be with regard to President Trump shifting the boxes around in Mar-a-Lago

00:28:23.620 or whatever.

00:28:24.180 But the underlying question of whether Trump retained classified documents is exactly

00:28:29.060 the same as whether Joe Biden retained classified documents.

00:28:31.240 In fact, the special counsel's report specifically says that it was totally in Joe Biden's interest

00:28:36.100 to retain classified documents.

00:28:37.880 In fact, some of the excuses that Joe Biden used with regard to classified documents sound

00:28:41.680 very much like the kinds of excuses that you hear from President Trump.

00:28:44.660 He, for example, had a bunch of classified materials and notebooks that he'd written.

00:28:47.880 He said, these are my notebooks.

00:28:48.960 These notebooks belong to me.

00:28:50.080 These are my materials.

00:28:51.020 That's exactly the same thing that President Trump says about a lot of the materials that

00:28:54.040 were in his possession.

00:28:55.040 So at the best, you can say the special counsel's office sort of distinguished the obstruction

00:28:58.960 charges against Trump from no obstruction for Biden.

00:29:01.660 But as far as the mishandling of classified materials, there's no question that Biden not only

00:29:05.560 mishandled classified materials, he knowingly mishandled classified materials.

00:29:09.440 He just had excuses for it.

00:29:11.000 And then when he got caught, he turned it over.

00:29:12.220 OK, so that is a distinction that when he got caught, he turned it over.

00:29:14.660 But again, that doesn't explain why he was let off the hook on the classified doc charges,

00:29:17.980 which is why it is necessary, again, for the special counsel to say we let him off because

00:29:22.500 we couldn't prosecute him because if we prosecuted him, he would get off because he's old and senile.

00:29:27.240 Yeah.

00:29:27.560 So, I mean, really, you saw it all over Twitter last night, X, that he's not mentally competent

00:29:33.020 to stand trial or to be convicted in a court of law.

00:29:36.520 But he is to be president, to be reelected to a second term.

00:29:41.120 I mean, realistically, this is going to be on about 10,000 ads, bumper stickers, slogan.

00:29:49.040 Trump's going to be out there nonstop with that phrase, elderly.

00:29:53.620 What is an elderly man with a bad memory?

00:29:56.200 That's going to be everywhere.

00:29:57.440 And that's putting it mildly.

00:30:00.200 By the way, just a little color on that.

00:30:02.300 Biden's lawyers came out and ripped on the report in part by saying it, quote, uses a

00:30:06.660 uses highly prejudicial language, which, by the way, we always used to say in the law,

00:30:12.080 you can object prejudicial and you'll get laughed out of court.

00:30:16.860 You have to object unfairly prejudicial.

00:30:19.880 That's what the law prohibits in a courtroom.

00:30:21.760 Unfairly prejudicial.

00:30:22.760 Yes, the entire prosecution case will be prejudicial.

00:30:25.280 It's going to hurt unfairly is the way.

00:30:27.320 So it's interesting that they just say it's highly prejudicial.

00:30:29.860 Yes, conceded.

00:30:30.720 It's it makes your guy look bad, but you're not claiming it was unfair because it wasn't

00:30:34.240 to describe a commonplace occurrence among witnesses like they all suffered from this,

00:30:39.800 Ben, quote, a lack of recall of years old events like when his son died, like when he was

00:30:50.260 the vice president, it's just not going to fly.

00:30:54.300 I mean, what's amazing about this, just speaking historically, is that we have had cases where

00:30:58.520 the president of the United States was incapacitated and continue to serve.

00:31:01.460 Obviously, Woodrow Wilson was incapacitated for the last several years of his administration.

00:31:05.180 His wife was basically president, Edith.

00:31:07.080 And then there are serious questions about at the very tail end of Ronald Reagan's tenure,

00:31:11.120 because during Iran-Contra, he also said that he couldn't remember a lot of things.

00:31:14.560 And that was a major national scandal at the time.

00:31:17.020 We're not talking about the end of a man's second term.

00:31:20.060 We're talking about a guy's first term.

00:31:22.000 He's still up for election.

00:31:23.520 That's the part that's so insane about all of this is that knowing this, going in, they're

00:31:28.140 running him right now.

00:31:29.720 And again, if he were elected, he would finish his second term and he would be 86 years old.

00:31:34.700 Does anyone believe that he is going, I mean, given his state right now, given the amount

00:31:38.320 of decline he's shown even between 2020 and 2024, what exactly does that trajectory look

00:31:43.320 like by the time he is 86 years old?

00:31:45.660 There's not a person alive in the United States with half a functioning brain who believes

00:31:49.480 that he will have a functioning brain by the time we get to year two of term two of his

00:31:53.100 administration.

00:31:54.900 That was the best line Nikki Haley said while campaigning.

00:31:59.480 A vote for President Biden is a vote for President Harris.

00:32:02.920 That's obviously true and more obvious than ever.

00:32:07.080 All right.

00:32:07.280 Now, before you go, divided states of Biden.

00:32:11.180 I love this idea.

00:32:12.400 So you're taking trips to what?

00:32:14.300 Swing states?

00:32:14.760 What states are you going to trying to show just exactly what that means?

00:32:18.000 Divided states of Biden are unifier.

00:32:20.480 So we're basically going to all the sites in America where the issues are most relevant.

00:32:25.520 So we went down to the southern border.

00:32:26.920 We went down to the San Miguel Gate in Arizona to take a look at how open the border is.

00:32:30.220 The answer wide open.

00:32:31.820 That is a purposeful Joe Biden policy.

00:32:33.540 That was episode one.

00:32:34.580 Yesterday, we were actually in Kensington, which is a suburb of Philadelphia, which has been

00:32:38.680 completely taken over by fentanyl and trying to focus in on the fentanyl crisis.

00:32:43.900 I've never seen anything remotely like it.

00:32:45.260 It's the worst thing I've ever seen in the United States.

00:32:47.540 It looks like something out of Mad Max.

00:32:49.200 I mean, you're talking about just miles stretch of road in which wall to wall people are just

00:32:54.100 shooting up openly in the public, rotting flesh, lighting fires, hunched over because

00:33:00.160 of what the drugs are doing to them.

00:33:01.520 We saw two, probably two probable murder scenes in the course of maybe a 15 minute drive around

00:33:05.860 that area.

00:33:06.720 We also went over to Camden, New Jersey to take a look at a place that was supposed to

00:33:10.000 be cured of crime.

00:33:11.280 By cured of crime, we mean it is still one of the highest crime areas in the United States.

00:33:15.200 And there may be some stats that are getting covered up about all of that.

00:33:18.160 You know, this country is in serious and dire trouble and divided states of Biden is designed

00:33:23.840 to highlight each of these issues from a location where it's actually happening.

00:33:27.240 So it's not just us in the studio talking about it.

00:33:29.060 You can actually see the footage for yourself and see what it looks like on the ground in

00:33:32.060 places where most of us aren't going to go.

00:33:34.140 So Texas, New Jersey, Pennsylvania.

00:33:36.600 So it sounds like you went to the red states, the blue states, but did you go to the green

00:33:39.320 states?

00:33:41.360 The rarely seen.

00:33:44.800 You laugh so you don't cry.

00:33:46.000 Looking forward to watching it.

00:33:46.960 Yeah.

00:33:47.260 I can't wait.

00:33:48.240 Ben, it's a pleasure to talk to you.

00:33:49.940 Take care of my friend.

00:33:50.460 Thanks so much, Megan.

00:33:51.800 All right, guys, don't forget, go to dailywire.com to sign up for that.

00:33:54.280 You should just subscribe anyway.

00:33:55.640 It's a great subscription.

00:33:56.900 You know, not all the subscriptions are worth it.

00:33:58.700 That one really is.

00:34:00.160 You get so much extra content.

00:34:01.720 You get behind the scenes stuff with all your favorite people from the Daily Wire.

00:34:05.000 I love it.

00:34:05.460 I love some just meandering around over there.

00:34:07.640 And then every once in a while, they give you something great like this, which is an

00:34:10.740 extra and worth your time and your cash.

00:34:17.060 The media reaction coming in on Robert Furr's special report about Joe Biden is amazing.

00:34:25.660 Boy, are they mad.

00:34:28.120 Here's Keith Olbermann's take.

00:34:30.700 The partisan hack appointed by Trump managed to turn his nothing burger investigation of

00:34:36.640 Biden and the returned documents into Christmas for the fascists by inserting unwarranted, unjustifiable,

00:34:45.020 indefensible medical opinions about the president's memory into it.

00:34:49.420 And that's the headline.

00:34:50.680 And oh, by the way, where's the goddamn attorney general on this?

00:34:54.480 Where did we get this asshole Merrick Garland?

00:34:58.480 Because not having every fact right off the top of your head at all times is a reason for

00:35:03.480 a Justice Department employee to put his schlong on the political scale and try to throw the

00:35:09.720 election to the guy who plans to be a dictator.

00:35:12.680 Thank you, Merrick Garland.

00:35:15.900 Resign.

00:35:16.420 Joining me now to talk about the media's meltdown after this Robert Hurr special report, the

00:35:24.900 executive producer of The Megyn Kelly Show, Steve Krakauer.

00:35:28.060 He's also a longtime media critic.

00:35:30.120 He's got fourth watch.

00:35:31.120 He writes a column for The Hill.

00:35:32.640 All right, Steve.

00:35:33.300 So you're doing double duty today as you sometimes do for us.

00:35:35.920 That I mean, I mean, schlong.

00:35:37.200 It's all about Robert Hurr's schlong.

00:35:38.680 I bet that wasn't your take in watching The Offense yesterday.

00:35:42.700 Keith, I don't know where Keith's mind is these days.

00:35:45.560 I have to say, it's funny.

00:35:46.520 We had Buck Sexton on yesterday talking about some media stories and how CNN has no interesting

00:35:51.880 people that have unique takes on it.

00:35:54.440 And now listen to that from Keith.

00:35:55.720 I mean, it's completely unhinged.

00:35:56.960 But man, that is some that is some interesting commentary from the former NBC host.

00:36:02.880 That's fresh.

00:36:03.660 You're not going to hear that anywhere else.

00:36:05.380 And for good reason.

00:36:06.580 So it's been amazing, though, to watch like the people run to try to do some cover.

00:36:10.740 There is a piece in The Wall Street Journal today, an op ed.

00:36:13.720 The Wall Street Journal is obviously more right leaning.

00:36:15.780 But the opinion reads, this is Bill McKibben.

00:36:19.460 Age matters, which is why Biden's age is his superpower.

00:36:24.840 It's all actually a big advantage to him, you see, because he's got the knowledge of several,

00:36:32.420 several, several, several presidencies, and they have altered his judgment and made him

00:36:37.420 swing big for the fences.

00:36:39.200 And all this petty stuff about memory is just something that everybody experiences.

00:36:43.800 Oh, yes, yes.

00:36:44.700 Actually, Los Angeles Times for this one.

00:36:47.300 I've seen people share and say this is why they're getting rid of one third of their newsroom.

00:36:51.920 They're running stuff like this.

00:36:52.880 No, I think that this is the logical next step for a media that's going to try to cover for

00:36:58.500 Joe Biden.

00:36:59.620 And I do think that there is a very real open question about what the corporate press does

00:37:04.700 next.

00:37:05.080 And I think what the corporate press does next is a real indication of what the Democratic

00:37:08.740 Party and the apparatus around Joe Biden wants to do next.

00:37:13.160 You know, we've started to see a little bit of cracks in the seams there with an NBC News

00:37:17.880 report that I thought was well done that really documented what actually is going to happen.

00:37:21.700 But if they're going to really try to trot out this Joe Biden and continue down this

00:37:26.600 path, I think that this is the avenue they're going to go, that Joe Biden is, yes, he's

00:37:31.360 old.

00:37:31.680 Even he admitted during that press conference he's elderly.

00:37:34.940 But wisdom, you know, what comes with age is real wisdom.

00:37:39.320 And he's so much less bad than Donald Trump because he's not dangerous.

00:37:44.260 You know, he's just a nice old man rather than a terrible old man who they have on the other

00:37:48.900 side.

00:37:49.260 So so I think that this is going to be the talking point if they choose to go down this

00:37:52.360 route.

00:37:53.660 Well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory.

00:37:55.660 That's it.

00:37:56.060 That's what the special counsel said.

00:37:57.180 Well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory.

00:37:58.840 I mean, that's it's going to go on bumper stickers for sure.

00:38:01.280 At least that second part.

00:38:02.540 So here's some more reaction.

00:38:04.340 Matt Iglesias, Bloomberg columnist.

00:38:07.900 This is fucking bullshit.

00:38:09.340 You appoint a Republican special counsel to investigate.

00:38:12.020 He investigates.

00:38:13.040 His investigation does not reveal a crime.

00:38:15.020 So instead of saying all good, he goes off and does partisan political hits.

00:38:20.480 Tommy Veeder, former Obama staffer and now podcast host, Robert Herr clearly decided to

00:38:25.760 go down the Jim Comey path of filing, filling his report, absolving President Biden of criminal

00:38:31.400 activity with ad hominem attacks, like calling him an elderly man with a poor memory.

00:38:35.900 Not remotely subtle, just a right wing hit job from within Biden's own DOJ.

00:38:42.360 Wild.

00:38:43.040 And then there's the bit about October 8th and 9th when he sat.

00:38:47.800 That's my favorite part of what happened yesterday.

00:38:50.500 Right, right.

00:38:51.280 They're going to try to find any possible way of doing this.

00:38:54.280 You know, the I have to say it is kind of funny, though, to see the immediate defense as

00:39:01.080 being that that the person, the special counsel is somehow a right wing hack.

00:39:05.760 I mean, this is the it's a total inverse of what we saw back when when the Donald Trump

00:39:11.860 and the Trump administration went and attacked the Mueller report as as that he was somehow

00:39:16.260 partisan.

00:39:16.780 And it was all this witch hunt against him in an area that, you know, essentially, as

00:39:21.100 Trump says, absolved him.

00:39:22.720 Now we're seeing the reverse of it.

00:39:23.620 But at the time, the media would not let that fly.

00:39:25.840 Of course not.

00:39:26.340 No, this this is that that's completely outrageous.

00:39:28.760 How dare you attack a special counsel?

00:39:30.680 This is the this is objective person.

00:39:33.280 Now it's somehow a you know, this this person is out to get Joe Biden.

00:39:38.360 But I do think, though, that that what I get, like I said, what happens next?

00:39:42.480 There was this really interesting tweet that came out.

00:39:45.620 This was before the Biden press conference, but after the report came out by Astrid Herndon

00:39:51.240 of The New York Times.

00:39:52.800 And this is someone who has a I would say he is one of these great reporters that I think

00:39:58.180 he's great in the sense that he puts all his thoughts out on social media.

00:40:01.720 He just he just puts it all out on X.

00:40:03.420 And so it's kind of embarrassing and undermining because now we know what he really thinks

00:40:07.460 when he's supposed to be an objective reporter.

00:40:09.000 But he's he did this during the in twenty twenty one when the Virginia governor race was coming

00:40:15.600 out anyway.

00:40:16.160 So he's very honest about it and which is to a fault, I think, for his organization.

00:40:20.180 But he said that this is something that's clearly important, a non Trump issue, important

00:40:25.800 to the electorate and that it is a White House and D.C.

00:40:29.220 kind of establishment coziness gentleman's agreement to pretend like Biden's age and memory

00:40:35.900 and competency is not an issue.

00:40:38.400 And then he said, maybe that ends now.

00:40:40.760 Yeah, I'd say so.

00:40:41.940 And he got pushback from people like Chris Hayes on social media.

00:40:44.440 But he's absolutely right.

00:40:45.600 It was a gentleman's agreement.

00:40:46.920 Does that gentleman's agreement now go away because it's so embarrassing and potentially

00:40:51.400 damaging for the Democrats in their fight with Donald Trump in twenty twenty four?

00:40:55.240 That's the real question.

00:40:56.520 And we're going to see that play out and we're going to see it play out on the Sunday shows

00:41:00.140 on Sunday.

00:41:00.780 How do they cover this?

00:41:02.120 We're going to get a real sense of whether the media is going to turn on Biden and the

00:41:06.260 agreement is sort of off at this point.

00:41:08.620 The agreement is such a farce.

00:41:10.320 It's not like the Kennedy years when he was cheating on his wife and, you know, they chose

00:41:14.140 not to report on those infidelities.

00:41:16.040 This is whether he's capable of actually being the leader of the free world.

00:41:19.560 He has access to the nuclear codes.

00:41:21.760 There's no gentleman's agreement here.

00:41:23.720 It's all street fighters.

00:41:25.040 There's the and that's, by the way, what the press is supposed to be anyway, challenging

00:41:28.560 authority.

00:41:29.460 I want to give the audience that we've done some good work on these soundbites, giving

00:41:32.620 them reaction on like the crazy spin and meltdowns, the Rachel Maddow bite comment.

00:41:39.080 Take a listen to some flavor in top 14.

00:41:42.180 Let's call it what it is.

00:41:43.600 This is ageism snuck into a report clearing the person of any wrongdoing.

00:41:47.740 If you want to get the ageism, young people are told all the time by their lawyers, hey,

00:41:51.620 you're way better off leaning into I don't recall than possibly misstating something to

00:41:56.220 a federal officer.

00:41:57.340 If someone says you're too far left, you can tack to the center.

00:42:01.480 There's no.

00:42:02.260 The man is 80 years old.

00:42:03.640 He rides a bike.

00:42:05.140 But he is the age he is.

00:42:06.380 Oh, my God.

00:42:08.600 OK, just you're much better off saying I don't recall about when your son died.

00:42:14.600 How is that a helpful thing to dodge on about when you were vice president?

00:42:19.160 That's like a matter of fact.

00:42:20.700 You're not going to be able to obfuscate on that.

00:42:22.740 And this is what an absurd attempt at defending him.

00:42:26.700 That's exactly right.

00:42:27.720 It's one thing to make that argument about the classified documents aspect of the special

00:42:32.420 counsel's report here.

00:42:34.760 But as you laid out, the most damaging part about this is not going to be the fact that

00:42:38.780 he wasn't criminally charged, but he still mishandled documents.

00:42:42.340 And, you know, as I've seen another spin, by the way, from people like Jeffrey Toobin,

00:42:45.500 who suddenly showed up back on CNN last night for some reason.

00:42:47.840 I don't know what was going on with that.

00:42:49.300 He said, oh, every every politician, not just presidents, vice presidents, everyone takes

00:42:54.060 classified documents.

00:42:54.800 This is a total nothing burger, as was proven there.

00:42:58.800 OK, sure.

00:42:59.480 But what was put in there, the conversations about being vice president and not knowing

00:43:04.880 when that was, 2009, 2013?

00:43:07.340 I mean, it's it's absolutely insane.

00:43:09.720 And those are the kinds of things that you can't get around.

00:43:11.760 These are the things that are not related to criminality, but are related to electability.

00:43:16.320 And and not everyone in the media is going to be MSNBC, which spun incredibly for about

00:43:22.500 10 minutes after the press conference ended and then immediately changed the subject completely.

00:43:27.060 They started talking about the Supreme Court and Colorado and all other kinds of it.

00:43:30.840 I mean, and CNN actually did almost the same thing.

00:43:33.560 They were they were done with this press conference within about 10 or 15 minutes.

00:43:37.580 Maybe they went back to it later on.

00:43:38.980 But but they they quickly pivoted.

00:43:40.860 And I think that that was very clear in the moment.

00:43:43.220 It might not be that way forever.

00:43:44.620 But but right then they were like, we got to get out of this.

00:43:47.080 This is this is bad.

00:43:47.920 We were riveted.

00:43:48.920 Our team was all we all have a group text.

00:43:50.840 All of us were texting each other like, oh, my God.

00:43:52.740 And when he came back out, it was like he oh, I wouldn't say he stuck the landing because

00:43:57.560 the whole thing had been, you know, pretty disastrous for him.

00:44:00.280 But it wasn't as bad as when he came back out.

00:44:03.180 And then just I mean, the perfect cherry on top of the Sunday, forgetting who the president

00:44:08.240 of Egypt is.

00:44:09.540 Well, I mean, I guess he knows he's the president of Egypt, but he said he's the president.

00:44:12.680 I'm not sure which he was confusing, but it was like, oh, you could just feel.

00:44:17.360 And then he turned to walk back off.

00:44:19.360 I don't know if you saw this, but he walked back off to like what was clearly an open

00:44:22.600 door.

00:44:22.920 You couldn't see the door.

00:44:23.640 You could just see where he's going to walk.

00:44:25.100 And there were like arms the way you do with your toddler.

00:44:27.960 You have two little ones like, yeah, you're good.

00:44:30.760 Come here, sweetheart.

00:44:31.680 You're almost there.

00:44:32.640 Two more steps.

00:44:34.100 So close.

00:44:35.500 Yeah.

00:44:35.860 By the way, I saw a great defense.

00:44:37.780 You know, Biden's the I guess it was communications director, Kate of Benningfield, I believe her

00:44:43.160 name is, is now a CNN contributor.

00:44:45.480 And so immediately after the speech, you have a person who literally was spinning for Joe Biden's

00:44:49.300 administration just a few months ago.

00:44:51.340 Now she's she's acting like a pundit.

00:44:53.000 And, you know, they say that she did work for Joe Biden.

00:44:55.220 But come on.

00:44:56.160 By the way, she she spun that as look at the substantive answer he gave on Israel and Gaza.

00:45:01.940 And now we're just going to focus.

00:45:04.420 It's it's on us that we're going to focus on the fact that he said Mexico instead of Egypt.

00:45:08.920 But but really, he's so engaged and has so much like it's I mean, that's that's the new spin.

00:45:16.120 Yes, he's it's what we call part of a pattern, part of part of a pattern, man.

00:45:19.900 The New York Times headline in fiery remarks.

00:45:25.280 President Biden hit back against a special counsel's claims that he mishandled classified

00:45:30.600 files and has memory problems.

00:45:33.900 That's the headline.

00:45:35.620 Fiery remarks in which he hit back.

00:45:39.100 That's not it.

00:45:40.140 That is not it.

00:45:41.920 I saw several headlines that described it as defiant.

00:45:44.940 Yes, he was defiant.

00:45:45.920 And yeah, this has been right.

00:45:49.140 Oh, yeah, of course.

00:45:49.880 Immediately the next day story, people are going to pounce on this.

00:45:53.180 And that is actually probably now that you say it probably where the media goes.

00:45:57.320 I think if we're looking this time next week, how how do we remember it?

00:46:01.260 If again, the caveat, if we really think the Democratic establishment is going to continue

00:46:05.640 trotting out Joe Biden.

00:46:07.000 Yeah, it's going to be the overreaction to it.

00:46:09.460 What Republicans start to talk about the 25th Amendment?

00:46:11.920 How dare they compare that to Donald Trump?

00:46:13.940 We saw people like Dan Goldman already spinning this.

00:46:16.940 How dare you, the media, focus on these little gaps when you've got someone like Donald Trump

00:46:21.640 who's going to destroy democracy if he's put in office in 2025?

00:46:25.180 So I do think that that's that's kind of the next step of it.

00:46:27.760 But what's amazing about this, the reporting is that Biden's staff believes that the best

00:46:33.840 version of him is when he's angry, is when he's fighting.

00:46:37.800 And that is what they what they hope to do.

00:46:39.720 Now, we don't know, as Ben talked about in the last segment, whether whether he overrode

00:46:43.820 his staff and said, I want to do it right now, rather than maybe sitting back, maybe

00:46:47.320 doing it this afternoon, waiting a little bit of time, thinking more through.

00:46:51.340 But they believe that it's the way to combat the kind of confused a little bit, you know,

00:46:57.740 walking on eggshells.

00:46:58.720 Joe Biden is to get him angry.

00:47:00.800 They think that's their best version.

00:47:01.980 That's their best hope.

00:47:02.880 I'm not sure that's that's true.

00:47:04.320 Not it.

00:47:05.820 Here's an example that Dan Goldman, he's very unhappy.

00:47:09.240 It's not 22.

00:47:10.480 It's wrong to think that because President Biden made a simple incidental mistake that

00:47:17.260 everyone understood what he was referring to, that that has anything to do with his mental

00:47:22.420 acuity.

00:47:23.200 And especially when you're now trying to compare him to another elderly man who is charged

00:47:29.740 with four indictments, who doesn't believe that the law applies to him and makes all

00:47:34.240 these mistakes.

00:47:34.900 Nancy Pelosi, Nikki Haley, you know, Donald Trump makes more mistakes on this stuff than

00:47:40.020 than Joe Biden does.

00:47:41.480 And for some reason, the media doesn't want to focus on that.

00:47:44.380 But he is a danger to our country.

00:47:47.540 There it is.

00:47:48.600 I mean, exactly what you just said.

00:47:51.160 And that's another this is another element to the media story as well, because there will

00:47:55.700 be a big pushback on places like X, other public platforms, even on places like CNN on

00:48:02.000 the air to to kind of bully the media, but by the left to say, you know, how dare you go

00:48:09.880 this route and will they hold strong?

00:48:11.700 Will they actually do?

00:48:12.260 I think we saw this with Fetterman, for example, you know, during the campaign, we look at the

00:48:16.160 Dasha Burns pushback that she got for daring to tell the truth about what it was like talking

00:48:20.700 to John Fetterman, it will they be bullied out of covering Joe Biden and even the special

00:48:27.240 counsel report in a way that gets them to back off?

00:48:31.020 I think that there's going to be an effort to do that.

00:48:33.040 Whether they actually hold strong will remain to be seen.

00:48:36.280 I mean, it's going to be very hard for them to bail on it because we're going to have more

00:48:40.040 and more and more examples.

00:48:42.120 I mean, it's like that's that's why this resonates.

00:48:44.560 That's why 77 percent of the population feels the way they do.

00:48:47.880 We're going to get more.

00:48:48.760 And I bet I bet they're going to get more egregious.

00:48:50.260 Look at that montage for people who didn't watch the show yesterday.

00:48:52.900 Go go check it out on YouTube and podcast because we we saw this coming.

00:48:57.440 We had all the montages of Joe Biden over the years to watch the quick deterioration.

00:49:03.220 It's only going to get worse.

00:49:04.360 This stuff only goes in one direction.

00:49:05.980 I got to go because Steve Krakauer is telling me it's time for a break.

00:49:08.900 It's great to see you.

00:49:09.820 Thank you.

00:49:10.440 I'll see you.

00:49:10.920 I'll have you in my ear in a minute.

00:49:13.020 OK, we're not done.

00:49:14.340 Jeffrey Epstein's brother is up next.

00:49:16.080 I'm Megan Kelly, host of the Megan Kelly show on Sirius XM.

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00:50:13.420 Offer details apply.

00:50:18.820 Now we dive into the mystery surrounding one of the most infamous unsolved deaths in U.S.

00:50:24.920 prison, the death of Jeffrey Epstein.

00:50:27.500 Sure, they say it's solved, but is it today?

00:50:29.860 Jeffrey Epstein's only surviving immediate family member, Mark Epstein, joins us.

00:50:34.860 Mark, by his own admission, was not involved in his brother's day to day life, but he spoke

00:50:40.060 with him the night before he was arrested and has been fighting now for years to find out

00:50:44.960 the truth about his brother's death.

00:50:48.000 After Jeffrey's death in August of 2019, a chief medical examiner who did not conduct the autopsy

00:50:56.140 deemed his death a suicide.

00:50:58.960 She did not conduct the autopsy.

00:51:00.920 But there has been speculation ever since, as you know, that there's much more to this

00:51:05.200 story.

00:51:05.800 We're going to discuss it all.

00:51:06.900 Mark will share a new exclusive picture with us of Jeffrey.

00:51:12.360 We want to warn you, we're going to show pictures from Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy.

00:51:17.580 This is not for any sort of prurient value.

00:51:21.260 It's because they actually may be relevant to how he died and they may be disturbing to

00:51:27.760 you.

00:51:28.680 Joining us now, Mark Epstein.

00:51:30.100 He's not appearing on camera, as is his want, because he wants to keep his identity private

00:51:35.720 and maintain some of his anonymity.

00:51:38.460 You can understand that.

00:51:39.480 Mark, thank you so much for being here.

00:51:40.720 Welcome to the show.

00:51:41.300 Thank you.

00:51:42.940 And thank you for your interest in looking into this.

00:51:46.040 Yeah, of course.

00:51:47.240 I mean, from the beginning, we've been fascinated by it, like so many Americans have been.

00:51:51.320 And let me give you the floor to just walk us through.

00:51:54.300 Give us the elevator pitch on why you do not believe your brother killed himself.

00:52:01.360 Well, let me first start off by saying that when I found out that he was dead, I heard it

00:52:07.040 on CNN.

00:52:07.640 So the government didn't notify me, as they've claimed in their report.

00:52:13.060 I heard it on television.

00:52:14.780 And at first, I just assumed that, well, I had no reason to doubt it, and that he decided

00:52:20.120 to kill himself.

00:52:21.480 So I respected that as his decision.

00:52:26.700 He didn't have any children.

00:52:28.480 Our parents are gone.

00:52:29.620 He would know he didn't have to worry about me.

00:52:32.760 He had no other close relatives.

00:52:35.280 So I just assumed that that was the case.

00:52:37.580 But then the next day, they performed the autopsy.

00:52:42.400 And just as a precaution, I had hired Dr. Michael Bodden to witness the autopsy, which I have the

00:52:48.560 right to do, and the city pathologist, Dr. Roman, and Dr. Bodden came out of the autopsy, saying that they

00:52:57.100 could not call this a suicide, because it looked too much like a homicide.

00:53:01.840 And, you know, make it clear that there's nobody who has more experience with prison deaths than Dr. Bodden.

00:53:07.980 And he said he's never seen these results, these like three broken bones in Jeffrey's neck, from a suicidal hanging like this.

00:53:17.160 So then the questions became, you know, if he didn't commit suicide, then he was killed.

00:53:22.780 And then who killed him?

00:53:24.180 How was it done?

00:53:26.100 So these questions started coming up.

00:53:28.480 And then Attorney General Barr came out publicly and said a real asinine statement.

00:53:35.760 He said that he saw, he personally saw the videotape of the camera that was on outside of the tier, where you could see the tiered door going into where-

00:53:46.060 Explain tier.

00:53:47.040 That's the floor where Jeff's cell was.

00:53:50.080 You go into a door, and it's a corridor with four cells on either side of that corridor.

00:53:56.340 And at the far end of that corridor, there's a camera that faces towards the door.

00:54:03.060 So anything that takes place on that tier, you know, outside of the cells, could be viewed by that camera.

00:54:09.420 Well, miraculously, that camera was not functioning that night.

00:54:14.040 But the camera outside of the tier, which showed the door, and it's also that showed that the guards were not doing their jobs.

00:54:20.460 They were surfing the net or napping.

00:54:22.600 That camera was working.

00:54:23.880 So Bill Barr referred to that camera, saying that he saw that nobody went in or out of the tier.

00:54:30.320 So that convinced him it was a suicide.

00:54:32.900 And when I heard him make that statement, I thought, he's either the dumbest guy on the planet, or he's covering something up.

00:54:40.120 Because for two reasons.

00:54:41.460 One, to presume that somebody could get to that door, go in undetected, you know, kill somebody, and go out and leave undetected is ridiculous.

00:54:53.440 Because there are six levels of security before you get to that tier.

00:54:58.260 This was the maximum security place in the prison.

00:55:01.760 So that didn't make any sense.

00:55:03.620 And then when he said he personally saw the videotape, watched the videotape, I thought, this is the Attorney General of the United States.

00:55:10.760 Could I see him sitting by a monitor, watching a night's worth of videotape to see that nobody went in or out?

00:55:16.960 Couldn't he have people in his office watch the videotape and just say nobody went in or out?

00:55:21.760 So when I heard that he personally watched the videotape, and he concluded that it was a suicide because nobody went in or out, I said, this is bullshit, if I'm allowed to say that on air.

00:55:31.380 Because there were, I think, 11 other prisoners on that tier in the cells that could have killed him.

00:55:40.260 Because I heard early on in my investigations, I heard through somebody from a kind of reliable source that cell doors were left unlocked.

00:55:49.420 So if cell doors were left unlocked, I don't know how many or which ones, but somebody could have gone out, killed him, went back into his cell, and that's how it was done.

00:55:58.240 So I've been trying to find out who were the 11 prisoners on that ward.

00:56:05.820 Because if Jeff was killed, it had to be by one of them.

00:56:10.040 So who are they?

00:56:11.280 How long were they there for?

00:56:12.900 And where are they today?

00:56:14.800 Can't get answers to any of them.

00:56:17.840 From whom are you trying to get those answers?

00:56:20.480 Well, from the government.

00:56:21.240 Me and other media people have been putting out requests for this kind of information.

00:56:27.780 Also, we know that the camera outside of the tier was functioning, because that's the one Bill Barr referred to.

00:56:34.620 We can't get the footage, it's been asked a number of times, of when they took Jeff off of that tier, when they took his body off of that tier and brought him to the infirmary.

00:56:45.320 Do they explain why they won't release that to you and why they won't release the prisoner names to you?

00:56:56.480 No, but when I did sit down with Justice Department people a few months after the death, all I got from them for every question I asked was, after a thorough investigation, we determined it was a suicide.

00:57:09.900 That was the answer I got to every question.

00:57:13.640 It's like when somebody pleads the fifth, you know, to 400 questions with the same answer.

00:57:18.200 That's what it was like.

00:57:19.520 Every question.

00:57:21.020 Now, the question becomes, what thorough investigation?

00:57:24.660 You know, like the EMTs that responded to the call, that you saw them in the newspaper, pictures of them wheeling Jeff out.

00:57:32.060 You know, they would never question.

00:57:33.560 And they themselves found that extremely odd, because they've been involved with other high-profile cases, and they've stated they're always brought in, you know, sat down and questioned about, you know, what took place.

00:57:45.360 They said, on this case, they have not been questioned.

00:57:47.860 The hospital personnel where Jeff was taken were never questioned.

00:57:51.780 And there were so many sort of rules that were violated here.

00:57:54.720 First of all, when they found Jeff in his cell dead, he had been dead for at least two hours.

00:58:01.160 We know that from the autopsy result, because the mark that was left in his neck, which you can see in the photograph, for that mark to be embedded in his neck that way and dried like that, he had to be dead for at least two hours.

00:58:15.200 Could have been six hours, but a minimum of two.

00:58:18.260 So when they found him, he was clearly dead.

00:58:22.260 He wasn't revivable.

00:58:23.720 He should not have been moved.

00:58:26.060 The medical examiner should have been cool.

00:58:29.020 Yeah, that's very key.

00:58:29.800 I'm just going to interrupt you one second just to tell the audience we are going to show the picture of Jeff and the mark on his neck that you're referring to.

00:58:37.940 This is the first time anybody's seen this publicly.

00:58:41.260 So keep going, Mark.

00:58:42.480 I'm sorry I interrupted you.

00:58:43.820 They should not have moved him because also when they find a dead body, you know, the position of the body, there's a lot of information they can get from that.

00:58:52.880 That's why they tell you to, you know, never move a dead body if you find a dead body.

00:58:57.080 Just get the authorities, let the coroner come.

00:58:59.680 Because what happens when you die and you're laying there for at least an hour or two, the blood in your body settles down from gravity because it's no longer being pumped through your system.

00:59:09.740 So it seeps through the tissue.

00:59:11.120 So the lowest parts of your body by the floor turn like purplish.

00:59:16.420 You get a blotchiness.

00:59:17.380 It's called lividity.

00:59:18.900 It's from the blood pooling under the skin.

00:59:21.680 So if they find a dead body, for instance, laying on its stomach, but on the back you have this purplish, blotchy lividity, well, they know that the body's been moved.

00:59:32.080 It means the person died on their back and was on their back for a while, and then they were moved and turned over.

00:59:38.700 So that's why you're not supposed to move a dead body.

00:59:41.720 Now, if you read the Justice Department report, which only has one page about Jeff's death, they described the way he was hanging.

00:59:50.840 They said that he was in a seated position, and you have to picture this.

00:59:55.180 He was in a seated position with his legs extended out in front of him, and he was hanging from his neck, right, a thing around his neck, from the top bunk of the bunk beds.

01:00:06.140 And when they cut him down, his buttocks was about an inch or an inch and a half off the ground.

01:00:12.080 Okay, so if you picture that.

01:00:12.960 Can I just ask you, because I've heard you say that before.

01:00:14.760 I don't understand that.

01:00:15.680 If they cut him down, how could he still have been hanging?

01:00:18.080 Well, they said they found him hanging, and then they cut him down to get him out of there.

01:00:24.380 Right, but why would his buttocks be on the floor?

01:00:26.980 Like, why wouldn't he be?

01:00:27.660 Well, because they were saying his buttocks were, because he was hanging, and the thing around his neck was holding him off the ground.

01:00:35.140 It was holding him off.

01:00:36.080 But in this version, they've cut him down.

01:00:38.660 Well, after they found him.

01:00:40.740 He's been dead for a couple of hours hanging like that.

01:00:43.260 So then, but they said when they cut him down, his buttocks were off the ground, and then they cut him down, and he came down the inch and inch and a half.

01:00:52.100 Okay, so when they found him and he was hanging, the buttocks were an inch and a half off the ground, and then they cut him down.

01:00:58.660 Correct.

01:00:58.760 Now I got it.

01:00:59.180 Okay, so now if you picture that, and he's been hanging for at least two hours, and it could have been six hours, but at least two, you would expect to find the lividity, the blood pooling in his buttocks, and especially in the back of his legs, because that was the lowest point.

01:01:15.680 And that's where the blood would settle.

01:01:17.400 But the autopsy photos, I have other autopsy photos, shows that his legs were clear, and his buttocks were clear.

01:01:23.160 There is some lividity on his back.

01:01:25.860 We're looking at some now.

01:01:27.520 We don't see the back of his legs in this photo, but certainly what we can see is not showing.

01:01:31.660 I just sent you the photo of his neck.

01:01:34.000 Right, but the photographs don't show that.

01:01:35.640 And there is some lividity on his back, but if he was only dead for two hours, and then they laid him down, that lividity on his back could have come afterwards.

01:01:44.780 So that's not conclusive, but the fact that his legs are clear, even if they laid him down, the blood would not have drained up from his legs into his back, unless he was hung upside down.

01:01:56.760 You know, so the fact that his legs and buttocks are clear from lividity, it leads doubt to the fact that he was found the way they described.

01:02:03.520 So wait, so let's just put a point on it so people don't have to figure it out.

01:02:07.580 So what you're saying is you don't believe that he was killed, obviously, in the manner that they're telling us, and that if he had really hanged himself, there would have been lividity underneath his legs and in the buttocks from the way he was found hanging, hanging almost in a seated position just off the ground.

01:02:23.920 And there wasn't any. So is there a working theory of, if it were a murder, how this evidence does make sense? Why wasn't there lividity in the back of the legs?

01:02:37.720 Well, it's because he probably was not hanging the way they say. Because if he was hanging the way they said, there'd be evidence of lividity in his legs and footers.

01:02:47.180 And on that photo, on that photo you gave us, Mark, is that of the autopsy and the, you know, the mark around the neck.

01:02:55.000 I'm not an expert in this, but it certainly looks to me, I have a hard time as a layperson understanding how a sheet made that mark.

01:03:03.540 Maybe we can put it back up so people can see it, as opposed to it looks almost more like a garrote was used or some sort of rope wire.

01:03:11.520 What did Dr. Hutton say about that?

01:03:13.340 Well, yeah. Well, when they came out of the autopsy, both doctors said it looks more like what's called a ligature strangulation.

01:03:21.120 That's where, like a garrote, where you go behind and you pull something tight along somebody's neck.

01:03:25.960 The other reason I sent the photograph, because, again, picture the way they described he was hanging.

01:03:31.920 His body was off the ground, right? His buttocks were off the ground, and his legs were extended in front of him.

01:03:36.920 So there was probably some weight on his feet, on the lower part of his legs.

01:03:41.820 But the bulk of his body weight was hanging by the neck from supposedly the top bunk.

01:03:49.300 If that's the case, and you could find photographs of people hanging, you know, from old lynching photographs or wartime photographs.

01:03:56.260 You know, the ligature, the thing around the neck, goes high up under the chin and comes up behind the ears.

01:04:03.660 That makes sense.

01:04:04.280 Yeah. You know, and if you look at the picture, I mean, I don't have the video.

01:04:09.220 I can't see exactly what you're showing right now.

01:04:11.760 But from that picture, the ligature mark on his neck is more in the middle of his neck and sort of goes straight back.

01:04:18.560 Yeah.

01:04:18.920 So, again, if he was hanging.

01:04:19.940 No, it does. It doesn't look like it's got an upward trajectory.

01:04:22.300 I mean, maybe a tiny, tiny bit, but not like you would expect in a hanging.

01:04:27.540 Yeah. In a hanging, it goes really high up in the front of your neck because you sink down into that noose or ligature, whatever was used.

01:04:34.380 And it goes really tight up under your chin and back behind your ears if it's in the middle of your neck.

01:04:41.440 So, again, this is not the way his body was found or the way he was, they described the way he was found is not backed up by the autopsy evidence.

01:04:54.740 A couple of questions about the autopsy in Baden, who I know and love.

01:04:59.140 You brought him in.

01:05:00.560 And was there any direction given by you to him?

01:05:03.180 Like, there's no way this was a suicide, you know, wink, wink.

01:05:06.440 Or, you know, how did you speak to Dr. Baden about his task?

01:05:09.480 He was brought in because, as, you know, as the next of kin, I have the right, you know, to have my own pathologist witness the autopsy.

01:05:17.120 And if I want to do, if there was a need to do a second autopsy, once the body is claimed, we could take the body to somewhere else and do a second autopsy if necessary.

01:05:27.420 But Baden used to be the chief medical examiner of New York.

01:05:30.940 So he's very well respected.

01:05:32.580 So when they came out of the autopsy, he said that they did whatever he asked them to do through the autopsy.

01:05:40.420 So he said there was no need to do a second autopsy.

01:05:43.580 And both he and, again, it wasn't Baden's autopsy.

01:05:47.900 It was Dr. Roman's autopsy.

01:05:49.740 She was the pathologist.

01:05:50.460 But what was his mission as you gave it to him?

01:05:54.200 To see what happened.

01:05:56.240 You were open-minded.

01:05:57.220 Completely open-minded.

01:05:59.220 Like I said, I had assumed that this was a suicide because that's what I heard and I had no reason to doubt it initially.

01:06:06.260 And I expected them to come out of the autopsy saying that, yeah, this is a suicide and, you know, case closed.

01:06:12.320 Believe me, my life would have been a lot easier if that's what took place.

01:06:16.900 I would have, you know, had to deal with losing a brother, which, you know, you deal with.

01:06:20.440 I've lost my parents and other close people.

01:06:22.540 So you deal with death.

01:06:24.000 You get over that.

01:06:25.400 And it would have been.

01:06:26.140 And that was four and a half years ago.

01:06:28.000 You know, so it would have been history.

01:06:29.800 But it came out.

01:06:30.920 They both came out saying they can't call it a suicide.

01:06:33.520 And on the death certificate, the initial death certificate, because you need a death certificate to claim the body.

01:06:39.820 And where it said cause of death, they wrote pending further study.

01:06:45.480 Now, Dr. Bonin has said that when it says pending further study, it usually takes weeks to do a complete study.

01:06:53.820 But two days later or whatever, Bill Bark came out with that ridiculous statement.

01:06:59.160 You know, now, first of all, he was not the one to declare it a suicide.

01:07:03.660 It was a medical exam.

01:07:04.600 He said apparent suicide.

01:07:07.340 Apparent suicide.

01:07:08.400 But he shouldn't make that call.

01:07:10.380 And then the chief medical examiner, who, again, did not see the body, she claims it's a suicide based on what?

01:07:18.140 What investigation?

01:07:19.100 Was she the first one to say?

01:07:20.740 So the person who actually did the autopsy says pending.

01:07:23.440 Dr. Bonin was there and says pending.

01:07:25.840 Then Bill Barr says apparent suicide, which could mean nothing.

01:07:29.660 Could be I heard some news reports that suggest looks like a suicide.

01:07:33.200 But that's a little further than pending.

01:07:35.360 And then the boss of the woman who did the actual autopsy, that's the one who came out.

01:07:40.380 She was the first one to say it was a suicide.

01:07:43.680 Yeah.

01:07:43.920 Now, did Barr say apparent?

01:07:45.960 I thought he said it convinced him it was a suicide.

01:07:49.420 We pulled the remarks and he said apparent.

01:07:51.700 There's nothing on camera.

01:07:53.220 He says some things about how the facility was irregular.

01:07:57.200 And we'll play that for you.

01:07:58.240 But when we saw his remarks, what we pulled was apparent suicide.

01:08:04.600 And to me, it looks like the Dr. Kristen Romans was the one who conducted the autopsy.

01:08:11.180 And Dr. Barbara Sampson, who's the chief medical examiner, who I assume is Roman's boss, she's the one who came out and said she changed it from pending to suicide.

01:08:22.140 And she never touched the body.

01:08:24.240 She never examined the body.

01:08:25.920 It seems like she's basing it on what Dr. Roman did.

01:08:32.060 But Dr. Roman couldn't make a determination.

01:08:34.520 Also, what I've been told is that, you know, there had been a claim that Jeff had tried to commit suicide a couple of weeks before.

01:08:42.040 And that Barbara Sampson might get into that.

01:08:43.660 Yeah, she might have made her determination using that as part of her basis.

01:08:48.680 But the fact is that he did not try to commit suicide prior.

01:08:52.780 And we'll get to that one second.

01:08:54.060 Here's here's Bill Barr's statement.

01:08:55.680 We pulled it.

01:08:56.180 He writes, quote, I was appalled to learn that Jeffrey Epstein was found dead early this morning from an apparent suicide while in federal custody.

01:09:04.900 Mr. Epstein's death raises serious questions that must be answered.

01:09:07.620 In addition to the FBI's investigation, I have consulted with the inspector general who is opening an investigation into the circumstances of Mr. Epstein's death.

01:09:15.720 The audience should know that that inspector general did go on to later release a report in June of 2023 saying they, too, were concluding suicide with more information.

01:09:27.140 And one of the key pieces of information that the suicide proponents cite is the thing you just touched on, which is that Jeff, they believe, they say, attempted a suicide while in custody shortly before this alleged suicide.

01:09:44.940 But you also have questions about that.

01:09:47.240 So let's talk about that.

01:09:48.180 It was about was it June?

01:09:50.120 Hold on.

01:09:50.320 I've got my dates in front of me.

01:09:51.500 Can we go back to one thing?

01:09:52.720 Because when Bill Barr made the public statement that I'm referring to, he said that he personally saw the videotape and nobody went in or out of the tear.

01:10:01.540 And that convinced him it was a suicide.

01:10:03.540 Do you have that clip?

01:10:05.880 Let's see.

01:10:06.900 We have that from his book.

01:10:09.800 Yes, there's some of that in his book.

01:10:11.140 I'm not talking about his book.

01:10:12.580 I'm not talking about what he changed for his book.

01:10:15.140 I'm talking about what he said publicly on television, that he personally saw the videotape and he convinced him it was a suicide.

01:10:22.200 I'm not sure we cut that.

01:10:23.280 That could be.

01:10:24.200 And was that the day after in your recollection?

01:10:27.960 It was within a couple of days, yeah.

01:10:29.940 I don't know the exact day.

01:10:31.480 But I'm pretty convinced that I remembered that correctly.

01:10:35.540 Because that's why I said he's the dumbest fuck on the planet, if that's what he thinks.

01:10:40.700 That's the thought that went through my head.

01:10:42.320 Right, based on the videotape of nobody coming on to the tear.

01:10:47.200 Right, any third-rate investigator will tell you that if he was killed, he was killed by somebody already on the tear.

01:10:53.380 So for him to be convinced because nobody went in or out, again, I said either he's the dumbest on the planet or this is a cover-up.

01:11:01.520 And that's what started the ball rolling to look into this.

01:11:03.920 We haven't even touched on, and I do want to get to the alleged other suicide attempt, but we haven't yet touched on the number of things that would have had to go wrong or right, depending on your viewpoint, on the cell block that night for this thing to go off the way it did.

01:11:19.220 I mean, the two guards who were in charge say, oh, you know what, we just didn't make our rounds.

01:11:25.360 The cameras that would have caught anything like this just happened to stop working within a matter of days before the alleged suicide.

01:11:35.200 It was like one thing after another that happened to work, you know, as I say, in Jeffrey's favor if he really did want to commit suicide, or in a murderer's favor if they wanted to murder him and not be caught.

01:11:46.940 And the stuff on the cell block was very suspicious.

01:11:49.980 Yes, but let me interject something there.

01:11:52.160 The two guards that we know about, you know, Tova Noel and Michael Thomas.

01:11:56.280 First of all, Michael Thomas came on shift in the middle of the night.

01:12:01.120 Now, the tear was locked up about roughly 10 o'clock at night, the night before.

01:12:05.900 So Michael Thomas came on shift in the middle of the night, and he's the one who found Jeff in the morning when he went to serve breakfast or something, about six-something in the morning.

01:12:13.400 Okay, so there's never just one guard there.

01:12:16.940 And it was mentioned in the early paperwork, early stories, that when they locked up the cell, when Tova Noel was there, there was also an unnamed guard number one and an unnamed guard number two were mentioned.

01:12:30.960 So the question becomes, who was unnamed guard number one and who was unnamed guard number two?

01:12:36.840 Who are they?

01:12:37.760 Where are they today?

01:12:38.620 Were they actually prison guards?

01:12:40.180 Or was there somebody put in to maybe leave cell doors unlocked?

01:12:45.580 So why are these people unnamed when we know Tova Noel and Michael Thomas' name?

01:12:52.100 So who were they?

01:12:53.580 Yeah, yet another piece of the mystery.

01:12:55.740 And the thing about the cameras, Mark, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is they went down.

01:13:01.020 And as of July 29th, and he died, it was August 10th, right, August 10th, July 29th, the psychology department determined that Jeff could return to the tier where he'd been held.

01:13:17.040 And that same day, the camera issues began.

01:13:23.300 The live feed worked, but the recording did not work for several of the cameras.

01:13:28.140 I mean, this was literally less than two weeks before he would die.

01:13:33.640 That, I mean, that is a massive red flag for me, just personally.

01:13:37.780 It just happens to be that the cameras stopped working the day he gets transferred back onto the unit.

01:13:43.640 What do you make of that?

01:13:44.540 It's a red flag for you and everybody else who has half a brain.

01:13:50.000 I mean, it's, yeah, I mean, this is the maximum security prison, and they have cameras that are not working.

01:13:55.120 It's just, you know, I understand it's an inefficient place and there's problems, but this sort of doesn't pass the laugh test.

01:14:02.340 Mm-hmm.

01:14:03.540 So let's talk about the alleged earlier suicide attempt, because he died on August 10th, but on July 23rd, by the way, just so the audience can stay with us,

01:14:11.720 it was July 6th, 2019, that Epstein was arrested at New Jersey Teterboro Airport, charged with sexual abuse and sex trafficking.

01:14:20.260 July 22nd, the appeals court issued an order denying him release.

01:14:25.340 And the 23rd of July, he was found in his cell with an orange cloth around his neck and placed on suicide watch.

01:14:34.240 Around 1.27 in the morning, the staff heard noises coming from his cell.

01:14:38.960 His cellmate, all we know is inmate one, said Epstein attempted to hang himself.

01:14:45.080 Epstein initially told staff that it was the cellmate who tried to kill him, and the cellmate says,

01:14:51.380 not true, I was asleep, I felt something hit my legs.

01:14:54.780 When I turned on the light, I saw Epstein with a string around his neck and called the guards.

01:14:59.400 Epstein was placed on suicide watch.

01:15:01.960 And then, when interviewed by the Office of Inspector General, another inmate, housed in the same tier,

01:15:09.360 inmate two, at the time of this incident, said,

01:15:12.700 I did hear inmate one call for assistance, and inmate one later told me Epstein had tried to kill himself.

01:15:19.200 Now, that person didn't actually see it, but that's what he said, bolstering inmate one's testimony,

01:15:24.020 that he didn't have anything to do with the first attempt.

01:15:27.500 Epstein told a staffer that he thought his cellmate had tried to kill him,

01:15:33.040 and further stated the cellmate had tried to extort him,

01:15:35.860 and that for the last week, his cellmate had threatened to beat him if he did not pay him money,

01:15:41.560 and that Epstein said he had not reported this to the staff, but he had told his lawyers.

01:15:47.380 So then we see this alleged suicide attempt.

01:15:51.140 So these two are arguing over what it was.

01:15:54.020 And this, the people who don't believe this was a suicide say,

01:15:58.420 look, the people who do believe that this was a suicide say,

01:16:02.080 he tried it, I believe the other inmate, that he did not attack him,

01:16:06.840 because Epstein's story was kind of all over the board on that.

01:16:10.460 Later on, he went on to say, actually, I have no memory whatsoever of what happened that night.

01:16:14.900 And so let's believe the inmate who does remember,

01:16:17.120 who says Epstein did try to kill himself on that first attempt, July 23rd.

01:16:21.440 Okay, that's a lot, Mark.

01:16:22.280 What do you make of all that?

01:16:23.000 It's no secret that inmate number one that you're referring to is Tataglione,

01:16:29.940 Nicholas Tataglione, who is in prison for a quadruple murder,

01:16:33.940 which he has since been convicted of the four murders.

01:16:37.100 He actually killed one by strangulation.

01:16:40.720 So was Jeffrey being extorted?

01:16:42.900 I believe he was being extorted.

01:16:44.280 I believe he was paying money to protect.

01:16:46.060 I don't know for a fact, because it wasn't through me,

01:16:48.640 but I believe he was paying money for benefits or perks there, protection.

01:16:53.460 And when Jeffrey said he didn't remember what happened, I laughed at that.

01:16:58.020 Jeffrey was a very smart guy.

01:16:59.280 He's not going to forget what happened.

01:17:02.120 And from what his attorneys say is that he was attacked by his roommate, his cellmate,

01:17:07.080 and he didn't want to report it as such because he was afraid of retaliation.

01:17:11.580 As simple as that.

01:17:12.640 That makes perfect sense to me.

01:17:15.940 What about the fact that Jeffrey ultimately said,

01:17:18.880 this is from the OIG, I think report is where we got this,

01:17:24.560 that he said as of July 25th through the 29th,

01:17:27.620 when he went to the psychology department,

01:17:29.420 that he denied being suicidal,

01:17:33.200 but then also said,

01:17:34.520 I have no memory of what occurred on July 23rd.

01:17:37.460 And again, went on to say,

01:17:39.160 I have no interest in killing myself.

01:17:40.560 But why would he back off of,

01:17:43.060 you know,

01:17:43.440 I don't remember anything that happened in that cell that night.

01:17:46.940 Because he was afraid that he'd be,

01:17:48.480 that the guy would come after him.

01:17:50.440 He was afraid of retaliation.

01:17:53.620 Remember,

01:17:54.060 he was locked up in a prison in a small place with these very,

01:17:56.520 you know,

01:17:56.960 dangerous people,

01:17:57.900 you know,

01:17:58.840 but then Mark,

01:17:59.760 the weird thing would be,

01:18:02.060 the weird thing would be,

01:18:03.260 apparently he then asked two different staffers

01:18:05.880 if he could be housed with that same inmate,

01:18:08.420 one who he had said,

01:18:09.840 I tried to kill him.

01:18:10.720 So that's,

01:18:11.220 that's one of the,

01:18:12.200 that's a point in the other side's favor.

01:18:13.680 No.

01:18:15.620 I haven't heard that before.

01:18:17.760 So I questioned that.

01:18:21.220 Okay.

01:18:21.720 But this is,

01:18:23.220 yeah,

01:18:23.640 there's a lot of things I questioned that don't,

01:18:25.160 don't make sense.

01:18:27.480 Whether he tried to kill himself,

01:18:29.020 which I don't believe.

01:18:30.060 And he told his lawyer that he didn't try to kill himself.

01:18:32.980 And I believe he was straight with his lawyer.

01:18:35.080 And the fact,

01:18:35.960 the fact that he says he didn't remember to me is just,

01:18:38.060 that's a red flag because he,

01:18:40.200 how could you not remember that?

01:18:42.340 He said he not,

01:18:43.040 he didn't remember because that's a way to end the questioning,

01:18:45.220 to just let things lie.

01:18:46.960 He was afraid of retaliation.

01:18:49.800 Yes.

01:18:50.240 This is from the inspector general report out of the DOJ that he,

01:18:53.740 that he,

01:18:54.900 that he allegedly asked two different staffers,

01:18:57.520 if he could be housed with that same cellmate,

01:18:59.060 inmate one who he had said,

01:19:00.440 tried to kill him on July 23rd.

01:19:04.420 That,

01:19:04.900 that doesn't make sense.

01:19:07.560 Like I said,

01:19:08.060 I've never heard that before,

01:19:08.900 but that doesn't make sense.

01:19:10.840 I question that.

01:19:11.840 I question if that's really true.

01:19:16.180 Yeah.

01:19:16.700 I mean,

01:19:16.980 we don't know.

01:19:17.740 This is the,

01:19:18.260 this is based on their investigation.

01:19:19.380 And if he didn't kill himself,

01:19:21.220 there is at least the possibility.

01:19:23.040 Of course,

01:19:23.560 this is the obvious suggestion that the government is working in tandem with

01:19:28.100 somebody to cover it up or may have actually killed him through some

01:19:31.240 agent for some reason themselves.

01:19:33.160 And so that's what I believe.

01:19:34.840 People don't put a ton of stock into the report.

01:19:36.300 Cause it's coming out of the DOJ,

01:19:37.620 the same DOJ that Bill Barr was the AG of the same DOJ in charge when

01:19:41.640 Jeffrey died.

01:19:42.300 So on,

01:19:42.760 this is sort of in the,

01:19:44.100 we don't believe it was suicide.

01:19:45.140 We believe it was a murder.

01:19:46.120 And we believe the government's covering it up lane.

01:19:48.500 Look in this thorough investigation that you're talking about,

01:19:51.140 this DOJ report that comes out,

01:19:53.180 there's no mention that the initial death certificate said pending further

01:19:57.880 study.

01:19:59.280 They don't refer to that.

01:20:00.780 They just said it was declared a suicide by a chief medical exam.

01:20:03.240 If this was a thorough report,

01:20:05.980 wouldn't you mention that it was first undetermined and then after some

01:20:10.860 further study,

01:20:12.380 which is undescribed,

01:20:14.320 it was declared a suicide.

01:20:16.400 That should be,

01:20:17.060 if it was a thorough investigation,

01:20:18.420 that would be mentioned.

01:20:20.400 You know,

01:20:20.540 another issue,

01:20:21.480 I don't know if you want to get to it now,

01:20:23.320 the question about the upcoming bail hearing after the suicide.

01:20:28.740 I'm not sure if you're aware of that.

01:20:30.820 Yeah.

01:20:31.000 Yeah.

01:20:31.120 That he had another one coming.

01:20:32.180 So this is one of your points.

01:20:33.380 Why would he hang himself when he still had another bite at the apple of

01:20:37.120 getting out?

01:20:38.620 Yeah.

01:20:39.100 But when Jeff was first arrested,

01:20:41.460 his attorneys called me and asked me if I would participate in his bail

01:20:45.820 because if other people participate,

01:20:48.080 you're more likely to get bail if other people have stuff at risk.

01:20:51.440 So I said,

01:20:52.020 sure.

01:20:52.440 I said,

01:20:52.980 put up my house in Florida.

01:20:54.600 You know,

01:20:54.780 I knew Jeff wasn't a flight risk and I,

01:20:56.260 you know,

01:20:56.780 he was my brother.

01:20:57.460 I said,

01:20:57.880 yeah,

01:20:58.060 sure.

01:20:58.280 Help him.

01:21:00.080 And that's when I became sort of,

01:21:02.180 most people didn't know Jeff had a brother.

01:21:05.840 You know,

01:21:06.020 we had,

01:21:06.500 we lived different lives.

01:21:07.280 We were always in communication with each other,

01:21:09.660 but we didn't spend time together.

01:21:11.240 So people didn't know me.

01:21:12.440 And then all the journalists all over the planet started looking into,

01:21:15.320 well,

01:21:15.420 who's his brother?

01:21:16.100 And they started trying to find dirt on me.

01:21:18.200 And then once they realized they couldn't find dirt on me,

01:21:20.680 then they all contacted me because they wanted me to help them with their

01:21:23.320 stories or their movies or their books.

01:21:25.320 I find that kind of comical,

01:21:27.520 but,

01:21:27.700 okay.

01:21:28.940 So,

01:21:29.140 but,

01:21:29.460 so we know he didn't get bail.

01:21:30.900 Okay.

01:21:31.240 And then a few weeks later,

01:21:33.340 his attorneys called me up again.

01:21:35.680 And what happened was Jeffrey was putting up,

01:21:38.480 you know,

01:21:38.700 his house in New York,

01:21:40.260 I think his jets,

01:21:41.120 he was putting up a very large amount of assets for bail.

01:21:46.080 So his attorneys called me and they asked me if I would guarantee his entire bail.

01:21:51.360 In essence,

01:21:52.180 doubling it.

01:21:53.260 Plus he had another friend that was participating by donate,

01:21:56.000 by putting up something.

01:21:57.060 I'm not sure what the value was.

01:21:58.900 They asked me if I would put up,

01:22:01.700 you know,

01:22:01.860 guarantee his bail.

01:22:02.740 Now I Googled it at the time.

01:22:05.380 And at that point in time,

01:22:06.260 the highest bail in the United States was a hundred million dollars.

01:22:10.840 Someone had put up a hundred million dollars for bail.

01:22:14.040 Jeffrey was putting up,

01:22:15.140 you know,

01:22:15.900 close to that,

01:22:16.720 I believe.

01:22:17.320 And with me doubling it,

01:22:19.400 this would have been by far the highest bail ever in the United States.

01:22:23.500 Now as unpalatable as it might've been for some people for Jeffrey to get bail,

01:22:28.340 well,

01:22:28.560 he might've gotten bail with such a,

01:22:30.420 with such a huge bail at risk.

01:22:32.740 You know,

01:22:33.040 as a,

01:22:33.700 cause everyone's entitled to bail.

01:22:35.020 If they're,

01:22:35.520 they could put stuff up and they deem not to be a flight risk.

01:22:39.240 So Jeff had a hearing scheduled for this appeal on the bail decision coming up in a few days.

01:22:46.720 So,

01:22:47.380 well,

01:22:47.560 on top of that,

01:22:48.200 Mark,

01:22:48.440 he,

01:22:48.580 he also hadn't been convicted.

01:22:50.860 I mean,

01:22:51.340 he had a prior experience years earlier where he got in trouble for some of these alleged behaviors and he got a good deal and got out of it with,

01:23:00.200 you know,

01:23:00.420 what critics would say is a slap on the wrist.

01:23:02.980 So you could make the argument.

01:23:05.200 He had good reason to believe,

01:23:06.760 even if he didn't receive bail,

01:23:08.920 he,

01:23:09.400 he could pull a rabbit out of a hat when actually at trial yet again.

01:23:14.580 Is there any,

01:23:15.340 I don't think,

01:23:15.800 I don't think he was looking to pull a rabbit out of his hat.

01:23:18.380 I believe what his defense was going to be primarily is that when he got in trouble back in,

01:23:23.660 you know,

01:23:24.260 2006 or seven,

01:23:25.620 whenever that was,

01:23:26.300 and he made that deal,

01:23:27.900 part of that deal was that he had a non-prosecution agreement with the federal government.

01:23:32.400 Double jeopardy.

01:23:33.260 Yeah,

01:23:33.400 that's right.

01:23:33.760 Right.

01:23:34.040 He agreed.

01:23:34.840 They agreed that he wouldn't,

01:23:35.920 he or other people wouldn't be prosecuted on this anymore.

01:23:38.600 So that's why he was taken by surprise when he was re-arresting,

01:23:42.160 you know,

01:23:42.940 in 2019.

01:23:46.840 And that was going to be his defense.

01:23:48.500 And it's from the lawyer's point of view,

01:23:50.600 it's a pretty good defense.

01:23:52.080 And then when they started saying,

01:23:53.240 well,

01:23:53.300 this was a different part of the government.

01:23:55.020 Well,

01:23:55.500 you know,

01:23:55.680 as far as I'm concerned,

01:23:56.900 we have one government in the United States.

01:23:59.100 And if you make a deal with the U S government that carries you from Hawaii to Alaska,

01:24:03.520 you know,

01:24:03.780 it's just everywhere you go.

01:24:05.420 For me,

01:24:05.620 it's like he didn't,

01:24:07.440 he didn't,

01:24:08.760 it's not like he had been found guilty.

01:24:10.420 You know,

01:24:10.600 he had just been arrested.

01:24:11.600 This was a few weeks after he was arrested.

01:24:13.300 He hadn't,

01:24:13.880 there'd been no trial.

01:24:15.220 He hadn't lost on,

01:24:16.180 you know,

01:24:16.340 the big motions yet.

01:24:17.740 Just seems like a little early in the process for him to be saying it's over.

01:24:22.380 Um,

01:24:23.100 or was it,

01:24:23.940 you know,

01:24:24.100 we just don't know what,

01:24:25.680 what he knew,

01:24:26.460 but can we spend a minute talking about the bones in the neck?

01:24:30.380 Cause that also to me was something that was very compelling.

01:24:33.240 And what Dr.

01:24:34.620 Bodden said,

01:24:35.640 and the quote was quote,

01:24:37.340 I've never seen three fractures like this in a suicidal hanging,

01:24:42.240 going over a thousand jail hangings,

01:24:44.980 suicides in the New York city state prisons over the past 40 to 50 years.

01:24:48.760 No one had three fractures.

01:24:52.160 But Jeff did.

01:24:53.660 So can you explain that a bit?

01:24:56.320 Yeah.

01:24:56.740 Well,

01:24:56.880 first Bodden is speaking from experience.

01:24:58.980 I don't know if you,

01:24:59.620 I don't know if you're old enough to remember the Attica riots from the Attica prison back,

01:25:04.480 I think it was in the seventies.

01:25:05.420 But after that happened,

01:25:06.840 governor Rockefeller set up a special commission to investigate prison deaths.

01:25:11.180 And Dr.

01:25:11.620 Bodden was on that commission and Dr.

01:25:13.780 Bodden is still on that commission.

01:25:15.560 So for the last basically 50 years,

01:25:17.700 just about all of the prison deaths in New York city and New York state prisons,

01:25:22.680 Bodden has done the autopsy.

01:25:24.480 So,

01:25:24.800 you know,

01:25:25.040 there's,

01:25:25.260 there's nobody with more experience than him when it comes to this stuff.

01:25:29.260 Yeah.

01:25:29.780 So the suicidal hanging he's talking about is,

01:25:32.860 is these like soft hangings.

01:25:34.280 It's where you tie something around your neck and you hang yourself and you sit down

01:25:37.980 and it cuts off your blood and you pass out and you die.

01:25:41.320 You know,

01:25:41.660 like unfortunately,

01:25:42.720 Robin Williams killed himself that way or,

01:25:44.740 or Dane killed himself that way.

01:25:48.380 So it's a soft hanging as opposed to a hard hanging is where you sort of stand on a chair

01:25:52.940 and then you kick the chair out and you really come plummeting down.

01:25:56.540 That's sort of like,

01:25:57.260 like Brooks in the Shawshank Redemption,

01:25:59.580 if you saw that movie.

01:26:00.860 So on this,

01:26:01.320 especially on soft hanging,

01:26:02.560 you don't break bones because you're just basically squeezing,

01:26:06.260 you know,

01:26:06.540 it goes around your neck.

01:26:07.560 It squeezes your carotid arteries.

01:26:08.840 So you,

01:26:09.660 the blood isn't going to your brain enough and you black out and then you

01:26:12.480 eventually die.

01:26:13.480 So that usually doesn't break bones.

01:26:16.340 You break bones when either they can squeeze the neck and break the neck or

01:26:20.160 as military people have told me the way they sort of quietly kill people.

01:26:25.900 The way you see in the movies is they'll give you a karate chop to the front of

01:26:30.220 your neck and then they'll usually twist your neck on,

01:26:34.120 break your neck and kill you.

01:26:35.340 You can't do that in the prison thing,

01:26:36.800 but the karate chop to the front of the neck,

01:26:39.500 it crushes your windpipe sort of discombobulates you,

01:26:42.940 incapacitates you to make you less likely to be able to fight back when they

01:26:46.680 quickly try to kill you.

01:26:47.700 So the broken bones in Jeffrey's neck more resemble the result of a hard

01:26:53.720 karate chop to the neck.

01:26:56.300 So,

01:26:56.880 I mean,

01:26:57.200 looking at all this evidence to me,

01:26:58.920 it seems like he was killed that way.

01:27:00.500 He was given a karate chop to the neck and then strangled with,

01:27:05.600 with a cord or something,

01:27:06.640 because in his room,

01:27:08.660 he had a CPAP machine that had an electric cord on it.

01:27:12.480 And the cord from the CPAP machine looks more like the neck result.

01:27:19.200 Like you mentioned before,

01:27:20.160 it doesn't look like that was caused by a sheep.

01:27:23.160 Was that ever examined?

01:27:23.980 The cord?

01:27:25.380 No.

01:27:26.080 As far as we know,

01:27:26.980 nothing's been examined.

01:27:28.220 You know,

01:27:28.540 when Bill Barr calls it a suicide,

01:27:31.640 okay,

01:27:32.000 then the investigation stops because there's nothing to investigate in a

01:27:37.580 suicide.

01:27:38.320 If I tell you that somebody committed suicide,

01:27:41.480 there's usually one question that comes up.

01:27:44.340 And that question is,

01:27:45.520 how did they do it?

01:27:47.780 Right?

01:27:48.120 Because there's many ways to kill yourself.

01:27:49.880 So like,

01:27:50.300 if you walk into a room and somebody's hanging from a sprinkler pipe,

01:27:52.940 well,

01:27:53.140 they hung themselves.

01:27:54.520 If you're walking into a room and someone's laying on the floor with his

01:27:56.840 head blown open,

01:27:57.540 there's a gun in his hand.

01:27:58.660 Well,

01:27:58.900 he shot himself.

01:28:00.100 You know,

01:28:00.240 if you're on the sidewalk,

01:28:01.060 if somebody splatted on the ground,

01:28:03.080 they jumped out of a window or off a roof.

01:28:05.160 So the answer to the one question is usually readily available.

01:28:09.720 How'd they kill himself?

01:28:10.600 Well,

01:28:10.820 he hung himself,

01:28:11.460 he shot himself,

01:28:12.080 he jumped out of a window.

01:28:13.320 Case closed.

01:28:14.660 So that's why there's been no investigation because if they determine it's a

01:28:18.700 suicide,

01:28:19.760 there's nothing to investigate.

01:28:22.600 And it does make you wonder why there are no pictures that were taken.

01:28:26.460 Why was the body cut down?

01:28:28.980 Why was the body when we see,

01:28:31.360 but I have to stop in the hospital in a different outfit.

01:28:34.280 But yeah,

01:28:35.460 I have to stop you because you said there's no pictures.

01:28:38.740 When he was in the prison infirmary and in the hospital,

01:28:42.420 I've been told this by people who were there,

01:28:44.340 that they had a handheld video camera taping everything from the infirmary

01:28:50.500 to the hospital.

01:28:52.740 Where's the tapes on those from that video camera?

01:28:56.800 Those have never been released to you?

01:28:58.900 No,

01:28:59.920 no.

01:29:00.160 Wow.

01:29:01.020 And why wouldn't I just think in today's day and age,

01:29:03.100 you got Jeffrey Epstein hanging to death in his cell.

01:29:06.720 You take a picture like you understand,

01:29:08.860 especially if you're a guard who just screwed up.

01:29:10.980 My God,

01:29:11.860 I'm going to need to document this.

01:29:13.560 I mean,

01:29:13.700 maybe there was just a complete panic and it's,

01:29:16.420 as they say,

01:29:17.060 they had screwed up and they just cut down the body and tried to get him to

01:29:20.780 the infirmary.

01:29:21.320 But you've pointed out the pictures that we have.

01:29:23.300 I think of him in the hospital,

01:29:24.360 he's wearing a hospital gown and he arrived there by everybody's admission,

01:29:27.940 dead,

01:29:28.640 dead for hours.

01:29:29.800 So who takes him out of his prison jumpsuit and dress as a corpse?

01:29:33.500 That's bizarre too.

01:29:35.200 Well,

01:29:35.320 I think he was cut out of the prison judge because they showed the prison

01:29:38.220 shorts and shirt that cut.

01:29:39.700 So I think they took that off of him in the prison infirmary.

01:29:43.440 Okay.

01:29:44.020 But,

01:29:44.660 but again,

01:29:45.040 who dresses a dead body in a hospital gown?

01:29:47.440 Either you put them in a body bag or the,

01:29:49.380 on a gurney,

01:29:49.860 they're covered by a sheet.

01:29:51.220 Yeah.

01:29:51.340 So somebody actually took the,

01:29:52.640 you know,

01:29:52.960 the dead guy's arms and put them through the hospital gown.

01:29:55.620 You know,

01:29:55.960 it's the kind of gown that you put on from the front and ties in the

01:29:58.780 back.

01:29:59.780 And I got a photograph of him in the hospital,

01:30:01.920 wearing a hospital gown.

01:30:04.500 And also,

01:30:05.380 he was,

01:30:05.860 he was dead for,

01:30:06.680 he was dead for at least two hours.

01:30:08.480 We know that.

01:30:09.800 Okay.

01:30:10.040 That wasn't a mystery.

01:30:11.500 That's not a mystery.

01:30:12.380 That's proven by the photograph you have there that Mark left in his

01:30:16.240 neck would not have stayed in his neck if he wasn't dead for at least

01:30:19.420 two hours.

01:30:19.900 If I take a rope and strangle somebody or anybody,

01:30:24.040 I don't,

01:30:24.460 I'm not a killer,

01:30:25.120 but if you put a rope around somebody's neck and strangle them like

01:30:27.620 that,

01:30:28.080 and then you just let them lay there,

01:30:29.800 the mark on his neck will flatten out because you have internal cell

01:30:33.660 pressure.

01:30:34.240 The skin is still supple.

01:30:35.860 You,

01:30:36.060 it won't leave a groove in your neck that way.

01:30:39.400 You know,

01:30:39.860 even if it was just tied on for a minute or two,

01:30:41.760 the skin will flatten out.

01:30:43.040 But for that groove to stay in his neck,

01:30:45.640 okay,

01:30:45.920 that means he was dead for at least two hours.

01:30:47.700 I mean,

01:30:48.740 that's the kind of work that forensic,

01:30:49.780 forensic pathologists do this.

01:30:51.640 They know this stuff and that's why they easily determined he was dead

01:30:55.440 for at least two hours.

01:30:57.680 So,

01:30:58.240 I mean,

01:30:59.480 there's still more questions around this whole thing than there are

01:31:01.460 answers.

01:31:01.860 And one wonders whether it'll always be that way.

01:31:03.860 Can I,

01:31:04.160 can I just zoom out for it since I have you here,

01:31:06.020 Mark?

01:31:06.460 And can you just tell us like one of the big questions about Jeffrey

01:31:08.760 Epstein is how he actually made all that money,

01:31:12.220 right?

01:31:12.560 Cause I know a lot of people who are,

01:31:14.180 we're on wall street or covering wall street would say that everybody,

01:31:17.360 like a lot of people thought he was a fraud because they couldn't see how

01:31:20.560 he made his money.

01:31:21.340 And yet you looked at the huge town home.

01:31:23.340 You looked at the Island is jet.

01:31:25.220 Okay.

01:31:25.660 It's not,

01:31:25.920 it must not be a fraud because he's definitely making money.

01:31:28.460 But the question was how,

01:31:30.080 do you know the answer to that?

01:31:32.400 Well,

01:31:32.820 Jeffrey started on wall street back in the seventies when,

01:31:36.200 when wall street was really corrupt and he learned how to make money.

01:31:40.000 You know,

01:31:40.360 I was not involved in that business,

01:31:42.280 but a story I tell some people,

01:31:44.340 I remember when we were young men still living at home and Jeffrey was working on

01:31:48.840 wall street.

01:31:49.180 He came home one day and he told me that,

01:31:52.180 and this is a quote.

01:31:53.260 He said,

01:31:53.680 if the general population knew what was taking place on wall street,

01:31:57.960 it'd be a revolution in this country.

01:32:01.100 That's a direct quote that Jeffrey told me back in the seventies,

01:32:03.760 because there was so much corruption going on.

01:32:05.800 And he started telling me how people were making money illegally and all kinds of

01:32:09.180 things that people were doing.

01:32:10.220 So he knew the system.

01:32:11.340 He knew the games.

01:32:12.280 I wasn't involved in his business exactly where he made,

01:32:14.900 you know,

01:32:15.420 his money.

01:32:15.920 I'm not sure.

01:32:17.340 Other people have told me he was really good at currency trading.

01:32:20.920 So,

01:32:21.520 you know,

01:32:22.200 I don't know.

01:32:22.880 What line,

01:32:23.140 what line of work are you in Mark?

01:32:25.820 I started off years ago in the printing business.

01:32:28.200 I had a silk screen printing businesses and then switched over to real estate.

01:32:33.320 And I,

01:32:34.200 I,

01:32:34.460 I've been retired for a long time.

01:32:36.120 I do a lot of work with nonprofit organizations.

01:32:38.640 Yeah.

01:32:38.720 You guys weren't in close touch.

01:32:40.300 You say,

01:32:40.840 you know,

01:32:41.000 before he died or for the,

01:32:42.780 I think I heard you say someplace seven years or so,

01:32:45.020 but like when you talk to him,

01:32:47.500 did you,

01:32:48.180 did he see like,

01:32:48.800 give us a feel for what he was like.

01:32:50.080 Did he seem like a happy guy?

01:32:51.420 Did he seem like an unhappy,

01:32:52.380 like what,

01:32:52.840 you know,

01:32:53.300 we of course have this picture of him.

01:32:55.820 He was a very happy guy.

01:32:57.740 He had all the money he needed to do whatever he wanted.

01:33:00.180 You know,

01:33:00.420 and he had people around him that facilitated whatever he wanted to do.

01:33:04.020 He had,

01:33:04.380 you know,

01:33:04.600 great homes,

01:33:05.400 nice jets and stuff.

01:33:07.220 But yeah,

01:33:07.480 he did.

01:33:07.720 He was an extremely happy guy.

01:33:09.460 He had everything he wanted.

01:33:11.260 When you heard,

01:33:12.420 you know,

01:33:12.660 about the arrest,

01:33:13.740 I'm sure you'd heard about the arrest 10 years earlier,

01:33:15.500 but when you heard about this arrest in July of 19,

01:33:19.760 were you shocked?

01:33:20.940 Did you immediately say this is,

01:33:22.320 this is a bunch of lies or did you believe it?

01:33:25.140 Tell us your reaction.

01:33:26.800 Well,

01:33:27.000 I first heard that he was arrested.

01:33:28.580 His attorneys called me that day after he was arrested.

01:33:31.260 He told me he was arrested and I didn't really know what to think of it.

01:33:33.540 I didn't know if,

01:33:34.540 what the charges were,

01:33:35.900 you know,

01:33:36.180 I wasn't involved with his day to day stuff,

01:33:38.300 you know,

01:33:38.560 and from what I understand,

01:33:40.380 the charges stem back from the old days.

01:33:43.120 I don't think he's been accused of doing anything.

01:33:45.780 You know,

01:33:45.900 once he got out of jail,

01:33:46.940 back in 2008 or not,

01:33:50.720 whenever that was,

01:33:51.880 I don't think he was,

01:33:53.320 I don't think any charges were related to anything after that period of

01:33:57.240 time.

01:33:58.460 I mean,

01:33:58.640 I knew he,

01:33:59.380 when he first got in trouble,

01:34:00.300 he called me to talk to me and he told me that he was getting into

01:34:02.640 trouble for,

01:34:03.920 for being with women that were too young.

01:34:06.360 You know,

01:34:07.200 that's what he told me.

01:34:07.860 Cause he wanted me to hear it from him as opposed to hearing something on

01:34:11.160 the news.

01:34:12.040 So I said,

01:34:12.520 no,

01:34:15.000 no,

01:34:15.360 I believe that he was,

01:34:16.940 arrested back then.

01:34:18.660 Cause he was with women that were too young,

01:34:20.820 you know,

01:34:21.300 whether or not he knew their age,

01:34:23.120 I don't know,

01:34:23.800 but he didn't deny it.

01:34:25.400 He was with women that were too young.

01:34:26.920 So when he got out of jail,

01:34:29.500 I mean,

01:34:29.820 yeah,

01:34:29.980 we're brothers.

01:34:30.480 We joke about everything.

01:34:31.540 I said to him afterwards,

01:34:32.520 I said,

01:34:32.880 just,

01:34:33.160 just make sure whoever you're with is over 18.

01:34:35.640 I said,

01:34:35.900 set up a passport scanner by your front door.

01:34:38.780 So you could make sure that people are legal age.

01:34:40.820 You were joking,

01:34:41.800 you know?

01:34:42.280 So,

01:34:42.600 but when he was arrested in 2019,

01:34:45.180 I didn't know what it was for initially.

01:34:46.940 I,

01:34:47.720 but if it's since found out that this doesn't seem to be any new charges.

01:34:51.980 And that's why I believe he was thought he was protected by the non-prosecution agreement.

01:34:56.700 That he had.

01:34:57.700 Yeah.

01:34:58.040 Yeah.

01:34:58.500 Yeah.

01:34:58.660 Right.

01:34:59.120 Which had been put in place years earlier.

01:35:00.860 So do you,

01:35:02.420 I mean,

01:35:02.660 sitting here today,

01:35:04.200 because,

01:35:04.480 you know,

01:35:04.680 you say the name Jeffrey Epstein,

01:35:06.540 everybody's pedophile,

01:35:07.960 sex trafficker,

01:35:09.360 you know,

01:35:09.660 spent his life taking advantage of underage girls.

01:35:12.200 And of course,

01:35:12.780 we've had actual testimonials to that effect by young women.

01:35:16.320 Do you think it's not true?

01:35:18.160 How do you see your brother and these allegations now?

01:35:22.100 Well,

01:35:22.360 I don't know.

01:35:22.740 You know,

01:35:22.860 I'm not his attorney.

01:35:24.060 You know,

01:35:24.320 I don't find it my job to defend him on any of this stuff because I wasn't there.

01:35:28.220 I didn't see.

01:35:28.800 I don't want to be,

01:35:29.540 you know,

01:35:29.700 just say,

01:35:30.140 well,

01:35:30.220 that's his brother saying something.

01:35:32.360 No,

01:35:32.780 I try to be very objective about this.

01:35:35.420 I don't speculate.

01:35:36.840 You know,

01:35:37.000 everyone who's spoken to me knows I won't speculate on this stuff.

01:35:39.500 I just look at the facts.

01:35:41.360 Everything I've told you so far,

01:35:42.800 I believe is a fact.

01:35:45.020 So I don't know what was going on.

01:35:46.380 I mean,

01:35:46.580 what people say,

01:35:48.540 you know,

01:35:48.840 the unspoken things that nobody wants to say out loud is a lot of people don't believe these girls.

01:35:54.300 You know,

01:35:54.580 if you look at the photographs that are released,

01:35:56.380 none of them look like they were having a bad time,

01:35:59.280 you know,

01:35:59.600 and this is what people tell me,

01:36:01.360 you know,

01:36:01.660 like one of these girls say they were raped,

01:36:03.240 you know,

01:36:03.480 many,

01:36:03.880 many times.

01:36:04.680 Well,

01:36:04.980 the question is like,

01:36:06.000 well,

01:36:06.160 why'd you go back after the 10th rape?

01:36:08.720 You know,

01:36:09.100 why'd you go back after the first rape?

01:36:11.440 You know,

01:36:11.740 it just,

01:36:12.240 well,

01:36:12.340 we never had a trial of Jeffrey Epstein.

01:36:16.580 I had one of Ghislaine Maxwell to hear some of that,

01:36:19.600 but here's the last thing I'll ask you.

01:36:21.280 And I know you don't want to speculate,

01:36:22.320 but I,

01:36:22.600 I would be remiss if I didn't ask.

01:36:25.200 Go ahead.

01:36:25.740 Try.

01:36:26.060 What do you think happened to him?

01:36:27.040 What,

01:36:27.280 what do you think happened to him?

01:36:28.640 If you don't think it was a suicide?

01:36:29.940 I think,

01:36:30.080 I believe he was killed to shut up.

01:36:31.360 Shut him up.

01:36:33.300 He had,

01:36:33.900 he had dirt on people.

01:36:36.000 By whom?

01:36:37.740 Excuse me?

01:36:38.940 By whom?

01:36:39.660 Killed by whom?

01:36:41.080 I won't speculate that,

01:36:42.660 but I know he had,

01:36:43.360 he had dirt on people.

01:36:44.620 And well,

01:36:44.960 ask Bill Barr who he's covering up for.

01:36:48.540 That's,

01:36:48.860 that's who you should really be talking to with these questions about who

01:36:52.100 killed Jeffrey.

01:36:53.220 Because I believe Bill Barr.

01:36:54.840 I will ask Bill Barr.

01:36:56.040 He's come on the show before.

01:36:57.120 I think I can get him to come out again.

01:36:58.420 In fact,

01:36:58.760 the day he was coming out,

01:36:59.560 we were going to ask him some of this stuff,

01:37:00.560 but then the Roe versus Wade decision was over return that day.

01:37:03.140 And we went a different way,

01:37:04.120 but I will ask him.

01:37:06.620 I think it's very great for you to come out and talk about this.

01:37:09.520 I'm sure you get,

01:37:10.260 I'm sure you get all sorts of blowback in certain corners,

01:37:12.220 but you're the only person alive who was related to him.

01:37:16.660 And Ghislaine Maxwell,

01:37:18.100 who was very close confidant,

01:37:19.900 isn't talking.

01:37:20.960 So I appreciate you coloring some of these lines.

01:37:23.880 I think many of us have a lot of doubts and maybe even more after talking to you.

01:37:29.000 That's the goal to get the right questions to the right people.

01:37:34.120 Yeah.

01:37:34.360 Well,

01:37:34.740 that's,

01:37:35.160 that's our goal.

01:37:35.920 And we're actually really good at that here on this show.

01:37:38.300 Mark,

01:37:38.620 I hope I get to talk to you again.

01:37:39.980 Thank you so much for coming on.

01:37:41.680 Thank you.

01:37:43.000 Yeah,

01:37:43.300 we appreciate it.

01:37:45.960 Okay.

01:37:46.500 Look at this.

01:37:47.020 I'm just pulling up my team's pulling up.

01:37:48.460 Bill Barr quotes,

01:37:50.360 August 19th,

01:37:51.120 2019.

01:37:52.520 Shortly after the death,

01:37:53.940 I will say that,

01:37:55.240 as I said before,

01:37:55.800 we found serious irregularities at the center,

01:37:57.800 but at the same time,

01:37:58.820 I've seen nothing that undercuts the finding of the medical examiner that this was a suicide.

01:38:05.720 Again,

01:38:06.640 the medical examiner who didn't examine the body.

01:38:08.780 That's,

01:38:09.260 that's what Mark and others have a problem with.

01:38:12.680 How did we get from pending to suicide when the person who declared suicide never examined the body?

01:38:19.340 One of the many questions.

01:38:20.380 Thanks for watching you guys today.

01:38:21.560 What a show.

01:38:22.120 Have a great weekend.

The Megyn Kelly Show - February 09, 2024

Damning Report on Biden's Mental Fitness, and if Jeffrey Epstein Killed Himself, with Ben Shapiro, Mark Epstein, and Steve Krakauer ｜ Ep. 721

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