Dave Ramsey on Capitalism, The Value of Working Hard, and Wealth Equality vs. Wealth Equity ｜ Ep. 82
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Summary
Dave Ramsey is one of the most popular broadcasters in America. He s a great talker, a great thinker, and he s got real life practical advice for you, for all of us, to dig ourselves out of the hole you probably fell into this year financially, one step at a time.
Transcript
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Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.
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Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Today, what a treat you are in for.
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Dave Ramsey. There is a reason this is one of the most popular broadcasters in America. He's a great
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talker, he's a great thinker, and he's got real life practical advice for you, for all of us,
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for the country to dig yourself out of the hole you probably fell into this year financially,
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one step at a time, and he'll walk you through it. And for the country at large, right? Like
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the debt, the deficit, what on earth? So he's got some thoughts on that and the crazy spending we've
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been doing, and just real life practical advice. I love Dave. He's always been good to me, and I had
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him on my show a bunch while we were at Fox, and I just think he's like, he's sound. He's somebody
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who's sound. He's like, got a foothold in real America. He lives down in Tennessee. He's got
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a huge media conglomerate now underneath him. And because he's in touch with, I think, I'd still
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call Tennessee the heartland. He makes sense, right? In a way that you kind of need to live
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off the coastal regions to do. A present company accepted. Anyway, you'll hear from Dave in one
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second, but first this. Mr. Ramsey. Hey, how are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. Good. Thank
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you for doing this with me. How's life in Tennessee? It is absolutely good. Life is good. I'll bet
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it is. I'll bet it's a totally different lifestyle than I have here in New York. I think about it all
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the time. We have folks come in and visit from California and other states, and they're just
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like, it's like they're on another planet or something. It takes them a little while to get
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emotionally acclimated to everything being open and virtually maskless. I talked to my friend
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Kathy Lee Gifford, who moved down there a couple years ago. She's just delighted to be there. She's
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so happy. Yeah, she's a neighbor about four miles from where I'm sitting. Yeah, she lives about four
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miles from where I am. Franklin? Yeah, that's where we live. Okay. It's where we're sitting. That's where our offices are.
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One of these days, Dave, I'm going to get down there, and then I can get lured in at some,
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I don't know, crazy estate that has helipads, according to Kathy Lee. I don't know what kind
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of lifestyle she's leading. She does anything she wants. Yeah. Yeah. So Shapiro's guys all just
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moved here too. Yeah, I know. I know they're like everybody. Honestly, Doug and I took a hard look at
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it, but our moms are both still in the Northeast. All our friends are in the Northeast. So I was like,
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our kids are little. For now, we got to be here. All right, let's talk money. Here's the first thing
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I wanted to ask you about. By the time this airs, the COVID package will likely have passed.
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Looks like it's going to be 1.9 trillion bucks, another round of stimulus. Those who want it say,
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you got to do it because it's the government's fault. Most of these people were kicked out of
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their jobs, and so it'd be unfair to just let them sit and suffer. What's your thought on it?
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Well, it's, you know, what I've spent my entire life doing is helping people who were struggling
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with money and or just trying to do better with money. And the problem is, is that personal finance
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is 80% behavior, and our behaviors come from our beliefs. And the sad part for me is that people
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are now believing that their government is actually helping them. And so they're going to their
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government to solve their problems, and it doesn't really solve their problem. And so I got a lot
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of criticism a few weeks back because I said, if $600 fixes your life, you didn't have one.
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And that was a little cold, probably. But mathematically, it was a correct statement.
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And because, you know, you know, you had other things that you needed to go fix. When you take
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personal responsibility for your life, that's where abundance comes from. Abundance never comes
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from the government. And so the idea that the government has actually helped someone
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is, with $600 or $1,400, is mathematically laughable. Did it pay a month's rent? Sure.
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Or did it help a little bit? Yeah, it did. But the problem is, is that the emotional weight that
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people put on this in their personal lives was, it's as if everything's going to be okay now.
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And it's not. Everything's going to be okay when you get up and you leave the cave and you kill
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something and you drag it home. Okay. Well, what about the people who have been,
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I generally agree with you that I don't look to government as our problem, as our solution to
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our problem. I see it generally as the problem itself. But in this particular instance, they caused
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the problem, right? Like they told people, like my old guest, Lindsey Graham, a woman from the
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Pacific Northwest, you got to shut down your seven hair salons and tanning salons and gyms.
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And she spent her lifetime building up this business. She actually wound up in an act of
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civil disobedience opening up anyway, but then got slapped with a bunch of fines, blah, blah, blah.
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But you know, isn't this a different scenario because the government caused the problem for
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people who were working? I completely don't disagree. But when we send her $1,400,
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when she lost hundreds of thousands of dollars, mathematically, that's laughable. And act like
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you did something. You didn't do anything. When you send someone that lost hundreds of thousands
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of dollars, or let's just say you made $60,000 a year and you've been unemployed for one year
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because of this. You lost $60,000. Not $1,600 or $1,400 or $600. $60,000. And for the government
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to stand up and, you know, this island of misfit toys called Congress and thump their chest and act
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like they saved America with this is freaking laughable, mathematically. And the problem is not
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from that standpoint. The problem is just that people then become this idea that the government's
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going to save the day. And they change their behaviors based on that instead of going where
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abundance can actually be found. So what's, I mean, I'm sure you've been dealing with this on your show.
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What do people do who have been, who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own this past year?
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The government interfered in an unprecedented way. They couldn't pay their bills. And now let's say,
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you know, New York, for example, where the restaurant industry is, they've done their
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level best to kill it entirely. That's like the lifeblood of New York City. Right? So what are
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they supposed to like, or, or take, take one of the actors who can't work on Broadway, right? They
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get cast in their dream role. They're not going to open up Broadway. They're not going to open up
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Broadway. God knows when they're going to do it. So like, what is that person supposed to do?
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It's, it's a horrible scenario because, you know, you lost your job, you lost your livelihood and it's,
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and you can't go back to that location. And it has not re, if you go back, it's not reopened
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in that location. And so it's much like a natural disaster. Like when Katrina hit New Orleans a few
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years ago, what were those people to do? Their businesses were completely wiped out. Many of
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them did not have hurricane insurance, did not have, or they had hurricane insurance, they didn't have flood
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insurance. And the flood surge is what took them out. So they literally completely lost everything.
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And you know what ended up happening? A whole bunch of them moved out of New Orleans permanently.
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And there have been Cajun restaurants pop up all over America ever since Katrina due to this diaspora,
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this, this shift in population and where it lives because they couldn't make a living there. In the
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thirties, we had a dust bowl and the number of people that moved off the cotton farm in Arkansas
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or in Oklahoma to Detroit to make cars because that's what they had to do to eat. Uh, and they've
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never gone back. They've never gone back. John Grisham's old book, the painted house is a fictional
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account of that. Uh, but there's always been a, a, you know, when there is a disaster and you cannot do
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what you did before in the same locale, there's always been people that had to move. And it's sad.
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I don't wish that for anybody. It's horrible. Uh, but there's not going to be a magic fairy dust
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from the government unless they decide that they're going to reopen the freaking economy in some of
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these areas that, that is going to allow these people to get their livelihoods back in that locale.
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And it may be, they changed careers completely, but I'm not going to sit in New York city and starve
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to death as an actor waiting on someone else to fix my life. I've got to go do something else at
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least for temporarily. So I'm going to be in Kansas city serving steaks somewhere, right? Uh, where
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they're open, uh, until this blows by, or it might be that it permanently changes my life.
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So you can be ticked off. You can be resentful that the government has put you in this position,
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but you got to do something. You got like that. You, you have to use that emotion to fuel behavior
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on your part and not just bitterness. Yeah. Because from a very practical standpoint,
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not just philosophically and not just politically, but from a practical standpoint,
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they're not coming to help you. Yep. Their best help was they sent you a check of around $1,000,
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which in Manhattan will last about 26 minutes. Right. But what about, what about the unemployment
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hike? Because, you know, Biden now is, he raised it from an extra 300 to an extra 400. And now they
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say, as a result of that, 62% of the recipients of this unemployment are going to be making more
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unemployed than they would if they were working there. They're being helped by the government.
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I'm not sure. I'm sure. I'm not sure it's a net good for society. Yeah. Or are they,
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I mean, 15 years from now, is that the best thing that could have happened to them
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is sitting on their tail, collecting a government check because they make more that way than they
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used to make at their real job. That tells us that their real job, they needed some career
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adjustment. I mean, if I'm making minimum wage, I'm going to go do something else. That's not enough
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to eat. I've got to change it. These are personal responsibility decisions though. And the problem is
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when the government with economic moves like this or moves of, uh, that are symbolic in nature,
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because the math is laughable, cause people to not go be them, bet the best version of themselves.
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That hurts that person 15 years from today. Now, 15 days from today, they're a little better off.
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I'm not arguing that at all, but it did not really fix their life. And I'm concerned about loving that
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person well. And, and, and this, the lies that are spread with this mythology is just hurtful to
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people. You know, I think about it sometimes, um, I thought about before I launched this show and I've
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thought about it with respect to others. Now, when you build a podcast and, and thankfully our show has
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done very well. So it's been a nice surprise, but it's, it tends to be slow going. You know, it's not
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like when you you're given the 9 PM show on Fox news and you inherit 3 million viewers from O'Reilly
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and your goal is just to hold on to as many as possible and then build, which we did.
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But when you're starting a podcast, you're starting from zero, you know, you don't,
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you don't start with any subscribers. So my philosophy was, I said it to my husband,
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Doug, and I said it to my team, just keep rowing. You know, we're just going to keep rowing.
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And it's, it's turned out to be something I think about a lot when I see people struggling out there,
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like forward motion, just keep rowing, whatever you have to do, keep rowing. You know,
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when you stop rowing, bad things happen. Yeah. The number of people that I've talked
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to this, that have gotten out of debt on my show that do their debt free scream on the Dave Ramsey
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show, um, that their income went up during the pandemic is almost every one of them.
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They call in and yell. Now, why did their income go up? Well, they, you know, they delivered Uber
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eats. They drove, drove and delivered pizzas. They, uh, you know, they lost their job over here
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on the left hand, but on the right hand, they picked up four other jobs and, um, you know,
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they made more money than they've ever made in their life. Now they've worked harder and it's been
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really freaking scary, but they went and took control of their own destiny and abundance instead of
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waiting on a $400 check. Hmm. I remember when I was, um, I was graduating from college about to go
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off to law school. I couldn't find a job. This is back in 1992. So the economy wasn't so good. And I
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actually took a job. I had to wear a little like cheerleading uniform and, and serve meals.
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It's a long story, but I didn't wind up actually having to do the job. I got a better waitressing job,
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which I took, but I, I was ready to do it, Dave. I was going to serve food in a cheerleading uniform
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to get the bills paid. I realized people have had to humble themselves worse than that,
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but your point is well taken. It's like, it may not be your dream job. It may not be something you
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even feel very dignified doing, but work is dignified. Well, and again, it's temporary and it is the long
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term answer. You took that waitressing job, but you're not, I'm not talking to you all these years
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later and you're still doing it. Right. It was, it was a, it was a short-term stop gap until I could
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move up and do the next best thing. And then the next best thing. And then the next best thing.
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And that's called a career path that is not called government subsidies.
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Think about it sometimes with my kids, you know, if they immediately foist their problem off onto me,
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you know, like, I don't get it. And they just want you to explain it or like, I can't find it.
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And I want you to do the looking. That's the stuff that irritates me way more than
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being a grump or being not nice to your brother or sister. It's like apathy or unwillingness to
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work for something. That's a problem. Like that's, that's a character trait that we need to work on.
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Well, and it, it's called being a great parent because you love your kids is why that aggravates
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you because you can see that that character trait projected into the future, that the 37 year old
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version of them is really got problems. If they don't take the initiative to walk out the door and
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solve a problem, to walk out the door and get something done, to bust into something when in
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doubt, as you said, row. Yep. I, I'm going to confess to you that numbers scare me. And when people
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start talking about the debt and the deficit, that scares me too. I understand that deficit. This is
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my, this is my lay person's explanation. That's how much we've gone over budget on an annual basis as
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a country. And debt is the big number that we've spent beyond what we've, what we owe. And that's
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my understanding. So what I'm being told now by the congressional budget offices, our debt is of
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course, getting out of control, that our debt is going to rise this year to $22.5 trillion,
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which now for the second year in a row is over 100% of the country's GDP. So our gross domestic
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product, our work output is lower than our debt. How have I accurately summarized these issues and how
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bad is that? Well, it's not as bad as many of us feel like it is in our emotions. Uh, I mean, I remember
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a book bankruptcy, 1984 that came out, you know, didn't happen. And that was Peter Grace of the grace
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commission working for Ronald Reagan. Uh, and they ascertained that the hockey stick debt was going to drain
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the economy, that the interest being paid on the debt was going to crash the economy in 1984. Didn't happen.
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There's lots of books predicting the end of the economy based on the weight of the debt. Um, and
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so we can argue about that. I made myself a promise. I'm the older I get, I'm not going to be the
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financial guy that writes a book on the end of the world. I'm just not going to be that guy because
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all my, a lot of my peers have, and I'm just not, I'm even if I feel like it's going to end, I'm not
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writing the book. So I don't think that's what's happening here, but it is still, you know, that what is of
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concern is that there doesn't seem to be any end to it. They have no, there is no indication of any
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coming austerity or discipline or ever anyone having the political capital to ever look at the
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voter base and say the word, no, they just continue to write checks. And it's almost as if they don't
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think it's real money. And the concern is, is that there's no curbing of it. There's no appetite to
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even discuss it. And that is more scary than the actual debt, because with that attitude, you could
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And the other piece of it that concerns me is, you know, you've got, you've got right now,
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Joe Biden reinstating a bunch of regulations and cracking down on energy and sort of reversing
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a lot of these Trump policies that we were told by the experts got the economy moving. Now,
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I don't know whether that's true or not, but that was the conventional wisdom over on the Republican
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side. And I, so I see these numbers rising and I see these sort of the big government thumb coming
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down. And I think, where's that going to take us?
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Yeah. Well, Art Laffer, who was on the, in the Reagan administration and also wrote a lot of,
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helped write a lot of the tax bills for Trump, uh, is definitely a free market, low tax guy.
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If there ever was one, you know, Dr. Laffer, he's a friend of mine lives here in town with us.
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Um, and yet he, he was a huge fan of Bill Clinton economically. And because that's the last time we
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balanced the budget, by the way, was the Clinton administration. And, uh, the, but how do you
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balance a budget? Well, you do two things, just like you do in your home, you cut spending and you
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raise income. The income during the Clinton administration was up dramatically because the
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economy was booming, thus incomes were up, thus the income tax collected was up. So the income
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coming into the IRS during the Clinton administration was an, at an unprecedented high because of a
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booming economy. And that's how partially how that the budget was actually balanced. Also, there was
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actually a little bit of restraint, a little bit of discipline in both parties to actually curb
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spending somewhat. Um, and so, you know, a booming economy is part of the formula to raise taxes,
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actual dollars paid in taxes, not percentages. Right. And well, I, I mean, I don't know what
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to expect under Biden. He says he's going to roll back the Trump tax cuts. And so we're going to get
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taxed more. Um, if you, you know, make over $200,000 a year and the debt is skyrocketing. It just
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seems like, well, you know, as somebody who makes over $200,000, I think how, how much more can we
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pay? Like how high could we go to the Bernie Sanders, 78%, 80% tax rate? Like how high could
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it climb? Yeah. It's, there's, I mean, the problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other
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people's money. I know you call yourself a capitalist pig. Yes. You said you'd, you'd make your
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receptionist work on commission if you could. I would. What is like, that was kind of a cute
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summary of the heart of capitalism, meaning like eat what you kill. Like you, you will get paid
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according to your output and how good you are. It's a complete meritocracy. Is that like, how would
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you sum it up? Yeah. It's just, I grew up in a straight commission household. Mom and dad were in
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the real estate business and I've always either been a straight commissioner or run my own business,
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one of the two, my whole life. And so it was up to me to have a, to provide value. And then I would
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make an income. And, uh, by the way, if I put the receptionist on straight commission and she was
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really, or he was really amazing, they might be the best paid receptionist in the state. And I would
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be okay with that too. You know, it's not that I was trying to cut their pay, not at all.
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I know. I think you're trying to espouse a philosophy. And I, I just, I think it's interesting.
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Like, I mean, because we hear these, these terms thrown around a lot, right? Capitalism. Now we
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hear socialism, we hear Marxism. And as somebody who's in the money game, like what does that,
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what does it mean to you? What does capitalism as a practical matter mean to you?
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Well, if you bring service to the marketplace, then the marketplace will pay you. One of the core
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values at Ramsey solutions, we've got almost a thousand team members and we've got these core
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values all over the walls is if you help enough people, you don't have to worry about money.
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And that's capitalism. Capitalism is not greedy. Take advantage. Some crooked guy with a bunch of
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cigars in the back room somewhere trying to figure out a way to steal from the little man. Those people
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don't stay in business in, in the real world. If you go to get your car repaired and the guy,
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doesn't fix the car and overcharges you, you tell all your friends to stay away from that guy.
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He's a crook. If he does a great job and it charges you reasonably, you have found a wonderful
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thing, a car repair person who's honest and efficient. You send all of your friends there.
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That guy should become wealthy in a properly run economy because he's providing service that is,
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that is beyond what he costs. If I go to a restaurant and the food is bad, I tell my,
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the service is bad. I tell my friends to stay away. If I go to a restaurant and they do a great job,
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I tell my friends to go. My friend, Rabbi Daniel Lappin says that, that profit is the, he said that
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when you do well for people, they give you certificates of appreciation with president's faces on them.
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That's like the line from Mad Men, right? The paycheck is the thank you.
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Yeah, it's exactly right. So, you know, if I write a book that doesn't help anyone,
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it shouldn't have to sell. It should only sell if it helped someone or entertained them or whatever
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the purpose of the book was. But no one was mad when I sold 10 $10 books. But then when I sold
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20 million, $20 books and, um, and helped 20 million families purportedly with that,
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with those number of book sales, then all of a sudden I'm an evil capitalist,
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That's insane. Is that where your book, The Total Moneymaker Makeover is now?
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It's done. It's, it has done 8 million. I've sold 20 million total of all the titles.
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Oh my God. That's insane. I mean, that book is so popular. I know you published it,
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I don't know, going on 20 years ago now. And it's still, it's still always on the bestseller list.
00:23:05.580
Just a couple of years ago, it was number four on the journal's hardcover business. That's crazy.
00:23:10.620
Why do you think it's so popular? Why are you so popular?
00:23:13.200
Well, again, it just helped someone. It isn't me. It's just, they had a problem and we showed them
00:23:19.160
how to solve it and they went and solved it. They're actually the hero in the story. I'm just
00:23:24.300
showing them how. And, and, and that's, again, that's, that's a sanctified type of capitalism.
00:23:30.380
It has a moral component to it called service, not greed. And so, you know, the reason your podcast
00:23:38.520
is popular is you provide solid information. People trust you. They trust your brand. They
00:23:44.120
trust who you are, where you've been and the things you've said. And so they want to hear what
00:23:48.640
you've got to say next. And that's a service. Coming up next with Dave, is there a wage gap
00:23:56.300
between women and men? And also what does equity mean? We'll get into it, but first this.
00:24:07.540
Well, you know what we're hearing now, that that mechanic had a leg up in life because he was born
00:24:13.560
a white man and that our system needs to change because it disadvantages. There are these
0.73
00:24:18.360
systemic problems that disadvantage various groups, right? Those with immutable characteristics
1.00
00:24:25.320
recognized by the law, right? Like the skin color or lady parts, what have you.
1.00
00:24:30.620
I didn't say, I didn't say what color the mechanic was, by the way.
00:24:33.720
But you know, you know that right now it doesn't matter because if there's any black mechanic not
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00:24:38.160
doing as well as the white mechanic, we go back to Kamala Harris's little ad right before the
00:24:42.420
election, which is, you know, just the inequality and outcome is an indictment of the system itself.
00:24:49.100
Well, I mean, systemic racism is real. It's there. And, you know, so is a, you know, there's all kinds
00:24:59.300
of different barriers that everyone faces, some of them higher than others. And, you know,
00:25:08.360
two of our personalities and the Ramsey personalities that speak for us and write for us are African
00:25:13.180
American. And we've had some wonderful discussions, Chris Hogan, Anthony O'Neill, and, and, you know,
00:25:18.900
Chris pretty well. And, but we've talked about this a lot and they're, they are highly successful
00:25:25.220
and thought after, sought after as speakers, as guests on shows and their books are bestsellers,
00:25:31.880
number one bestsellers. And it has nothing to do with their skin color. But I will tell you this,
00:25:38.540
the truth is that there are some jerks out there that maybe still did not buy a book because the
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00:25:44.180
person's face on it was of the, a color that they didn't like. And that's on that jerk. But Chris and
1.00
00:25:49.480
Anthony have chosen to say, in spite of that guy being out there, and he is out there, in spite of
00:25:55.120
him being out there, I'm still going to go be successful.
00:25:57.100
Hmm. Well, what do you make of the push now for more socialistic policies in the name of
00:26:05.780
Well, wealth equality is unfair. I just want it to be fair, they yell. It's not fair for wealth to
00:26:13.380
be equal. It's not fair for incomes to be equal because different levels of service and excellence
00:26:20.480
are provided. Um, you know, Tom Brady plays football at one level and there are other people
00:26:29.000
that don't play at that level and he creates more income for his team. And so he should be paid more.
00:26:36.740
It would be unfair for him to be paid the same as someone who doesn't perform at that level.
00:26:44.220
You know, not everyone plays guitar like my friend, Brad Paisley. Uh, and not everyone has the work
00:26:50.600
ethic that he's got works like a maniac. Uh, and so, you know, he makes more money than people who don't
00:26:58.140
have the same level of talent and work ethic. And it would be unfair to take his wealth away with his
00:27:06.400
work ethic and talent being superior and give it to someone else. That's unfair.
00:27:11.580
I mean, this is one of the problems that we get to when we talk about the, the wage gap for women
00:27:16.480
because I've been criticized for not jumping on board this train in the past, but I see the argument
00:27:23.480
on the other side, which tends to be the more conservative Republican side, which is look,
00:27:27.660
if, if I didn't take any breaks, if I worked my tail off, if I had the same qualifications and the
00:27:32.860
same background or better than my, my male equal at a firm and I didn't get paid as much. Now we're
00:27:38.780
talking. Now we got a problem. But what happens is women do take time off. Women, women do take
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00:27:45.140
time off from maternity leave. Or I think, and I, I know I'm, I would call it a sexist pig, but I do
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00:27:50.120
think women have a biological need to be with their children at times, even more than the men. And they
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00:27:55.480
will craft a life accordingly. And there's nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with
00:28:00.120
the women who choose not to do it either. But I think there's a reason so many women do create
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00:28:04.780
their lives so that they can feed both masters, right? Their children and their need to be with
00:28:09.340
them and their work life. And that's okay. We don't then have to come back to the workforce
00:28:14.100
after doing all that, which is laudable service and say, and now I need to be on par exactly with
00:28:19.500
the guy who never took that time, right? Like who was here sweating it out at the office.
00:28:24.600
You say that, especially as a man, you get killed.
00:28:27.000
Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to even, I'm not going to even join the conversation.
00:28:32.280
No, my mom, uh, when I was six years old in 1966, got a real estate license. Real estate was sold
00:28:39.220
100% by men in those days. Now it's 85% sold by women, right? Uh, but, but in those days it was
00:28:47.840
unheard of and she dared to wear a pantsuit instead of a dress. And we got hate mail in the mailbox with
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00:28:56.980
all kinds of horrible things said. And, uh, over the fact that she dared enter the business to
00:29:03.460
start with over a pantsuit versus a dress. 1966. Okay. Shortly before the ERA, the Equal Rights
00:29:11.000
Amendment was put forth and the women's movement really got, uh, nasty, you know, but mama never
1.00
00:29:18.400
said, I can't get ahead because I'm a woman. She just went out and sold more houses than they did.
1.00
00:29:24.440
Hmm. She just outperformed them. Now was her barrier higher? Yes. Was her starting point lower?
00:29:32.180
Absolutely. And she still kicked their butts. This is what Eli Steele was saying to me. He
0.99
00:29:38.020
and his son, uh, produced a documentary recently called what killed Michael Brown. And, you know,
00:29:43.820
he's a heterodox black thinker, intellectual, really important mind. And he was saying,
00:29:51.740
there's no question that there are structural disadvantages for blacks in certain industries,
00:29:57.900
but he, he thinks the solution is the same as you think, which is, you know, for, for better,
00:30:04.140
for worse, we're just going to have to try harder. And that's always been my approach as a woman too.
00:30:08.380
Like they're there. I know they're there. Come on. Let's not pretend there's not sexism and there
00:30:11.820
aren't other weird, uh, harassment or related burdens in the, in the workplace that women have to
1.00
00:30:17.260
deal with, but it doesn't do a hell of a lot of good to just try to lament the system and ask people
00:30:24.620
to just add like a, a reparations type bonus onto your, your paycheck. Um, what works, what worked in
00:30:31.500
my own experience is just nose to the grindstone. And, and most people love hard workers and they
00:30:38.500
love great work product. And I think most people, while there are racists and there are sexists out
00:30:43.040
there, I think most people are looking to make money off of their employees, you know, and if you do
00:30:47.740
well, they'll pay you. Yeah. My, you know, let's fast forward mama's story, right? She started in an
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00:30:54.900
industry where she was a sole female virtually in our town, uh, outsold them all. And now we fast forward
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00:31:01.900
all these years later, what is it? 60 years later. And in the industry is dominated by women.
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00:31:08.960
And so the way you solve these systemic problems is you overwhelm them with excellence.
00:31:17.120
The way, the way, you know, if I meet someone that is racist, I usually meet someone who has
00:31:22.080
not been exposed to quality people of a different color. They don't get out much and it makes them
1.00
00:31:29.040
ignorant. They live in their own little backward world where they never see people of a different
1.00
00:31:34.620
color who perform at an excellent level, who are quality human beings. And once you see that a
00:31:40.300
time or two, you, it, it, anybody who has a level of intellect struggles to be a racist at that point.
00:31:46.680
The same thing with a lady in a situation, you know, I've got ladies on my operating board. I've
1.00
00:31:50.620
got ladies all through my leadership team and you better not tell one of them. They got their position
1.00
00:31:55.400
because they're a lady. They will kick you. Yeah, that's right. They got their position because they,
1.00
00:32:00.300
because they get her done, baby. They know what happens. They're quality, high level executives
00:32:05.680
in a, in a, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue coming into this place every
00:32:10.860
year. And they are one of the reasons and no other reason did they get the position. It just happened
00:32:17.600
to be that they were female. And, but if they sit and say, well, women can't get ahead and they don't
1.00
00:32:22.900
work as much because of childbearing years and they don't do this. And, and they use all of that as
00:32:27.360
a reason to not go be excellent. Then this talk of systemic, whatever has caused that individual
00:32:35.480
to underperform. And again, back to our other discussion has caused them to not live their
00:32:40.980
best possible life. And that's the sad part of the whole discussion. It's not that these things
00:32:45.380
aren't real or hurtful. They are very real and very hurtful and they are very difficult to overcome.
00:32:51.400
But the only answer for the individual is not to sit around and wait on the systemic thing to be
00:32:57.860
fixed by some outside force. It's for them to pierce through the darkness with their excellence.
00:33:03.220
Yeah. Pierce through the darkness. I, when I was young and up and coming at Fox,
00:33:07.400
they gave me an opportunity to host here or host there. I wasn't yet like a real anchor.
00:33:12.100
And, um, I saw a director. He was a, you know, like the directors are tech guys and he directed
00:33:17.800
somebody's show and he said, how, how's it go? Like when, when you, when you go out there,
00:33:20.760
how's it going? I said, it's great. It's great. And he said, how are the ratings? You know,
00:33:24.140
when you sub in and I'm like, they're, you know, they're pretty good. And he's like, well,
00:33:28.880
you got to make them go up. You got to make the rating spike when you come on. I'm like,
00:33:33.540
well, I'd love to, how do I do that? He's like, just keep practicing, keep working it. And I was like,
00:33:38.360
okay, I see his point. You know what I mean? I don't know exactly how you make the rating spike,
00:33:42.360
but I'll just keep preparing and keep trying to do my best. And hopefully someday they will. And lo and behold,
00:33:48.120
the more I worked, the more I did it, the more the ratings would spike. And I, and it gave me,
00:33:52.760
and had nothing to do with being a woman had to do with being, you know, strong, strong in my
00:33:57.100
position. So fast forward to at the height of my career at Fox had a big argument with somebody who
00:34:02.680
shall go nameless for the purposes of this discussion about who was going to get a particular
00:34:07.900
opportunity on the air. It was for a special night. And this other person wanted it as a guy and I
00:34:14.580
wanted it. And this person said, well, I have this title and sort of just threw out this sort
00:34:23.300
of fancy title. And I, by that point, after all the scrappiness and, you know, many, many years of
00:34:29.220
hard work said, my ratings are twice what yours are. I had my own power. And you know what? I got it.
00:34:37.000
I won. And you didn't win because you were female. No, it had nothing to do with blood,
00:34:43.720
sweat, and tears. You were excellent. And excellence wins. And it felt good. Yeah. Yeah.
00:34:50.480
And you, you know, you won on the basis of performance and, and yet you had a higher hill
00:34:57.700
to climb than he had. And you still kicked his butt. Yeah. And I never even like to think about
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00:35:04.080
that. One of the things I object to about the way our society is turning right now and embracing
00:35:08.720
victimhood, even if the victimhood is real, is I've always found that so destructive. I found that just
00:35:15.900
the worst way of thinking about oneself. In fact, one needs to think about oneself as totally empowered,
00:35:22.540
even if you're not, and forge forward with that wind at your back, you know, fake it till you make
00:35:28.620
it is another way of saying it, but that works. Positive thinking works. And the belief that you
00:35:34.080
are capable and can do anything has propelled me from, you know, somebody who had with no,
00:35:39.900
no family money and no family connections, and certainly no connections in journalism to where I am now.
00:35:44.860
It worked. Yeah, it does. And that's the problem for those of us that love people. And that's why we
00:35:52.720
start hating talk of systemic this or systemic that. Those things are real. We're not, you know,
00:36:01.160
intelligent people can't discount the fact that systemic whatever exists. It does. But the discussion
00:36:07.880
of it being first and foremost, and we're here to help you with that. That's where the falsehood
00:36:15.500
kicks in. That's where the mythology kicks in. Because then you're telling people that by saying
00:36:20.280
that it's systemic, that it's all going to be fixed. It's not. It's not. The way it gets fixed is
00:36:26.200
you go own the industry. You go be so stinking good that you push through on an individual basis. Now,
00:36:35.400
it's wonderful on a macro basis, I guess, from a political perspective. I don't have those tendencies
00:36:40.980
to work on big problems like that, like a systemic whatever, and try to help fix it. I don't have a
00:36:47.080
problem with that. But it's never fixed by telling the victims to sit and wait on it to be fixed.
00:36:55.660
Well, I know you've said many times and in many places, no one accidentally wins at anything. And
00:37:02.800
you are not the exception. And that's an empowering statement, right? Like if you want to do well,
00:37:08.340
you've got to work it. And if you don't believe it's true of everyone, just look at the various
00:37:14.360
fates of white men, right? Like those are the ones that we're told have all the power, at least did
0.99
00:37:20.380
up until recently. I'm not so sure anymore. Some do very well. Some do very poorly. There's a
00:37:25.980
differential depending on how much effort they put into it, how much they sat back, how much they got
00:37:31.220
off their tail and busted it, right? Like this is a point you're trying to make. Doesn't matter what
00:37:35.580
your disadvantage is or if you're totally equally situated. It's up to you. It's up to you to win.
00:37:41.580
Yeah. And you know, and you have inherent advantages that are given to you and inherent
00:37:48.680
disadvantages and you've got to work what was given to you. Okay. I got a face for radio. My
00:37:56.200
daughter, Rachel is a beautiful young woman and, and, and the camera like you loves her and she loves
00:38:04.300
the camera. And so she does much better and, and just can walk into the room as a speaker, as a
00:38:11.640
thought leader, a bestselling author and carry the room in a way that I never was able to in my entire
00:38:18.760
life. And it's before she even opens her freaking mouth, you know? And so her good looks have an
0.97
00:38:24.880
advantage, have given her an advantage. She's got the disadvantage of whatever sexism that she will run
1.00
00:38:32.820
into and whatever someone wants to limit her because they don't want a woman in that position
1.00
00:38:37.440
versus. So she's got an advantage and a disadvantage. Now she can sit and discuss which of those she's
00:38:43.180
going to use to go win. And so she's got to prove her brain works in spite of the fact that she's pretty
00:38:49.260
because that also is sometimes the, uh, you know, automatically assume someone that's beautiful. It
00:38:55.340
doesn't, their brain doesn't work well. And that's not true in her case or yours. And so beautiful
00:39:00.580
intellect as well. But so you got to go prove yourself again, you know, in spite of that, but
00:39:05.480
this is the card you were dealt, play the hand that was dealt you in such a way that you still
00:39:10.400
win and take the chips off the table. That's funny because I, I was not always attractive and I was
00:39:17.640
not always a hard worker, but eventually I got there. And, um, then when you get there, right,
00:39:22.080
you're like, I'm, I'm looking better. You know, I lost some weight and I changed my hair and I fixed
00:39:26.260
that space in between my two front teeth and I'm working hard and I go to law school and you get
00:39:31.420
out and you're like, look at me now. And the world's like, screw you. That's a new challenge
1.00
00:39:39.300
you have to get beyond. Yeah. And I'm worse than that. I'm a 60 year old boomer. So there you go.
00:39:43.720
Okay. Up next, how are credit cards like the cigarette industry? Dave's got thoughts and why
00:39:52.460
you should chop yours up and throw them away. The horror or not. Stay tuned. But first this.
0.85
00:40:05.620
Let's talk about debt. Can we? Because speaking of law school, I always talk about how I've been rich
00:40:10.260
and I've been poor. And when I was poor, personally, my family's always middle class,
00:40:14.260
upper middle class, depending on the year. Um, it was when I was in law school because I put myself
00:40:19.120
through law school. Um, my, my mom paid for my college. And then when I graduated from college,
00:40:24.920
she said the financial umbilical cord is cut. Okay. Um, so I didn't have a bunch of savings. I had
00:40:32.020
really nothing. So I went to law school, did take out loans to put myself through, but I only took out
00:40:36.300
loans to pay for the tuition and every other thing I spent, I earned by teaching aerobics.
00:40:43.580
And I'll just give you a little background as a first year law student. I think at most schools,
00:40:47.920
you're not allowed to work. You, you are first year, so grueling and so demanding and really the
00:40:52.820
most important year of law school. They forbid you from working outside of the school because they just
00:40:57.400
know you'll do it and you'll undermine your main effort. So I got around it because I had been an
00:41:03.300
aerobics instructor for seven years by that point, six, whatever it was. And, uh, I said, well,
00:41:09.060
it's fitness, you know? And so if they're willing to give me a paycheck for the fitness, why wouldn't
00:41:12.460
you let me? And they said, okay. Then I exploited it. And instead of just doing five classes a week,
00:41:16.880
I wound up doing at some point 17 classes a week. So it was a ton of exercise in super good shape
00:41:22.220
and I made money and I, I'm so grateful to this day I did it. And then I lived at home. That's one of
00:41:29.840
the reasons I went to Albany law school so I could, I could live with my mom. So the umbilical cord
00:41:33.520
wasn't totally cut. And, uh, it worked Dave because I amassed debt, but not so much that I
00:41:39.060
couldn't handle it after the fact, but I did go into debt and it was stressful and I had the
00:41:44.420
shittiest credit ever. I mean, I wasn't paying my bills in college. And so I went off to law school
00:41:48.540
with that saddled around me. And I know this is your big thing. So let's just spend a minute talking
00:41:53.760
about how evil you think debt is and how seriously you take the threat of carrying credit cards around
00:42:02.360
in your wallet. Well, again, it's kind of been, I guess, our theme today is what is good for people?
00:42:10.660
I don't really have some, uh, macro ax to grind until it brings harm to people. And I've spent the
00:42:21.360
last 30 years almost on the radio and on stages and writing books, helping people. And so I want
00:42:28.860
that single mom that's working three jobs to get ahead. I don't want her stuck there. I want that
1.00
00:42:34.880
young couple who's got overwhelming problems, uh, with debt and, and they're behind on their car
00:42:41.300
payments and the pandemic caused them to lost their job. I want to give them some things to do that they
00:42:46.640
can go to today to start taking control of their destiny. And what is the shortest distance for
00:42:52.060
those people that I love from between where they are and abundance or wealth? And the shortest distance
00:43:00.380
is been proven time and time again to avoid debt and or to get out of the debt because you're limping
00:43:09.140
along carrying Sally Mae on your back and two fleeced cars on your back and a, uh, a bass boat or a
00:43:16.460
snowmobile payment and a couch that was 90 days, same as cash that turned into 34% interest and a
00:43:23.840
credit card or seven. Um, and it's all normal. It's normal, but normal's broken. Normal sucks out
00:43:31.280
there. Normal is making a lot of money and having none. And, uh, because it all goes to some stupid
0.99
00:43:37.080
bank or some stupid financial institution because we signed up and signed our life away, buying stuff
1.00
00:43:42.580
we couldn't afford with money we didn't have to impress people we don't even really like. And
1.00
00:43:46.800
it's just, it's, it's taking people's future away. It's taking away their shortest distance to
00:43:52.560
abundance. And so we've spent, uh, decades now showing people how to get rid of that debt
00:43:58.920
because that helps them. And if you start with that premise, then you go, okay, what's wrong with
00:44:05.640
a credit card? Well, I, you know, we've did the largest study for Chris Hogan's book,
00:44:10.120
everyday millionaires, Ramsey solutions research team, uh, with an outside research firm, airtight
00:44:15.400
study, the largest study of millionaires ever done in North America, 10,167 millionaires were
00:44:21.500
interviewed. Not a single one of them, not one said, Dave, you know, I made all my money with my
00:44:30.120
airline miles that I got on my credit card. Not one of them said that discover point, discover points
00:44:36.780
is how I got ahead. They, that's exactly what people point to the credit card, the airline miles
00:44:42.120
when they act like they are heading towards abundance. That's true. And so they have believed
00:44:48.320
a lie. We know this because millionaires don't do it. Do they use a credit card? Some of them,
00:44:56.400
but do they sit around and go, I'm getting wealthy, getting my airline miles? No, that's a dumb butt
1.00
00:45:01.700
statement. When you think about it, it's really asinine. And so points guy, he's, he's to blame.
1.00
00:45:08.020
He's so destructive. Yeah. I mean, but I mean, it, because he's the, again, I'm not mad at him. I
00:45:14.220
mean, there's nothing about that, but the credit card is basically, I think it's the cigarette
00:45:18.160
of the financial industry. I think we're going to look up in about a decade or two and what used
00:45:24.460
to be really cool. And everybody thought it was a no big deal. And the cool kids all had one,
00:45:28.760
you know, puff, puff, all of a sudden you can't smoke anywhere except outside the building by
00:45:34.080
the air conditioner. You know, it's become just to use an ATM card. Like how do you charge your,
00:45:39.760
I use, I use, I use debit cards. I've got debit cards on my business and on my personal account
00:45:44.360
does every single thing. A credit card will do has the exact same fraud protections. Only you just
00:45:48.920
have to have freaking money in your account or you can't buy stuff. What a novel idea.
00:45:53.560
Well, do you worry at all? Like one of the reasons I use my credit card is I worry about online fraud
00:45:58.160
and Amex will shut it down, right? Like if you, yeah, they do it with debit card too. Debit
00:46:03.120
card has a hundred percent coverage on online fraud, all Visa products and MasterCard products
00:46:07.980
do. Okay. Whether they're debit or credit. So if I get ripped off with, if someone steals
00:46:13.120
and, uh, or they, you know, identity theft, obviously those kinds of things, 100% of the
00:46:19.020
money is put back into my account. It is in the, you know, if you just pull up Visa's website,
00:46:23.760
it's in there, you know, that they have these, they have these policies and they're protected,
00:46:28.200
but no one wants to talk about that because they want an excuse to buy things they can't afford.
00:46:33.200
And so adults devise a plan and follow it. Children do what feels good.
00:46:37.540
Well, I know you say like, don't, you're not doing your kid any favor by encouraging them or
00:46:41.180
helping them get a credit card, you know, to get, sort of get their credit started. That's,
00:46:44.800
that's a bad idea. Just keep using cash, use cash, use your ATM card. Don't,
00:46:49.660
don't sub submit to the plastic gods. Yeah. I mean, pour your 13 year old a beer and hand
00:46:55.620
them a pack of cigarettes. Why not? I mean, why, why wouldn't we do that? Because it's harmful.
00:47:03.060
It doesn't get, it doesn't turn the 33 year old version of them into somebody good.
00:47:08.380
Now is it the end of the world? If somebody smokes or drinks a beer? Absolutely not. I'm not mad at
00:47:13.160
you. If you do those things, that's not the point. It's a metaphor to point out that you don't bring
00:47:18.540
things that are questionable like that into a child and suggest that this is normative.
00:47:26.060
When your kids were little and you were, you know, how much time did you spend talking about
00:47:32.080
money when you were raising them? Or do you think, because I have my own thoughts on this,
00:47:36.440
do you think an attitude toward money is sort of a character trait?
00:47:42.960
Oh, it definitely, there are different character traits. Some people are spenders naturally,
00:47:47.140
some are savers naturally, some are more free spirits and more nerds, we call them. And Rachel's
00:47:53.380
latest book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money, goes into a bunch of the reasons that we handle money
00:47:59.160
the way we do and which of them are okay and which of them, you know, you need to really look at. So
00:48:04.660
those are very, you know, very, very, it's a great topic to dive deeply into. But the bottom line of the
00:48:12.640
whole thing is that, did we teach it? Did we have little mutual fund parties for our 13 year olds?
00:48:19.480
No, no. Rachel and I did a book years ago, it was her first number one called Smart Money,
00:48:24.980
Smart Kids, teaching kids how, for teaching adults, we were teaching adults how to teach their kids how
00:48:29.480
to handle money. And in the Ramsey household growing up, we talked about money, maybe 20 minutes a week.
00:48:36.140
Maybe. And that was more like, did you do your chores? So are you going to get paid? Because you
00:48:42.320
didn't get paid if you didn't do your chores. We didn't have an allowance, your own commission.
00:48:46.020
And so, back to our earlier discussion, right? But the, but we didn't sit around and have these
00:48:53.900
long teaching sessions with 16 year olds or six year olds about money, because more is caught than
00:49:00.420
taught. But they saw us being generous. And so, to a person, all three of our grown kids are generous.
00:49:07.840
They saw us save. And to a person, all three of our grown kids save money. And they saw us spend and
00:49:15.940
enjoy money. And to a person, all three of our grown kids spend and enjoy money with their spouses and
00:49:22.160
their kids, my grandkids. And so, you know, but they watched us and saw us and breathed it. We didn't
00:49:28.020
hide it from them. We talked about, hey, here's, we're going to do this. Oh, we can't do that because
00:49:31.920
it's not in the budget. What's a budget? Well, we have a plan. And the plan tells us when to say
00:49:35.520
no to ourselves so we can say yes later. I like that. It's, it's caught, not taught. That is so
00:49:43.080
good. I mean, that sums up 90% of parenting, frankly, right? It does. Because how many of us have
00:49:48.540
opened our mouth and our mother came out or our father came out? Too, too many, especially now that I get
00:49:55.200
older, right? You hear it exactly. Well, you, sir, have helped a lot of lives in the process of
00:50:01.220
becoming the success you are. Number three radio show in the country now. I mean, you were three
00:50:06.640
behind Rush and Hannity. So now, what do you think happens with Rush's listeners? And does this make
00:50:12.000
you officially number two in the country? Well, based on numbers, it does. Yeah. We have 644 radio
00:50:20.420
stations and about 10 million listeners on radio and about another 11 million on podcasts. So about
00:50:26.560
21 million a day, roughly. Um, and, uh, which I actually have more, uh, stations than Sean has,
00:50:34.140
but he has more listeners than I do. And so, and we both know Sean, he really wants to be number one,
00:50:38.860
so he can be number one. I'm perfectly fine being number two, Sean. I love you. You're doing okay.
00:50:44.360
So it's working out for me. So, uh, you know, I, I, we were in talks with a lot of those radio
00:50:50.640
stations and have been for the last year and, uh, because we knew this sadness was coming and, um,
00:50:57.240
and Rush did too, of course. And so, um, the, uh, I think that, you know, they're going to attempt
00:51:05.360
to put, apparently they're going to attempt to put some different, uh, talent in those seat,
00:51:09.640
in that seat for a while. And, uh, hopefully some of it will catch. Um, it's just hard to be the
00:51:16.180
act that follows Elvis. He invented rock and roll, you know, and I don't, I, and so, uh, we'll probably
00:51:22.160
end up picking up some of those slots here or there. Uh, and I'm sure they got Buck Sexton in
00:51:27.700
there. Buck's a wonderful guy and doing a good job. And, uh, there's talk of other people sitting in
00:51:33.100
that seat, but it's a very, very tough seat to sit in. And so, um, I suspect it'll be, uh, a little
00:51:42.560
of everything. I don't think there's going to be one person that comes in and completely takes over
00:51:46.120
the thing. I think it'll be, uh, different people will pick up different pieces of it just because
00:51:51.040
that's the way the marketplace works. But, um, but there's no question that, um, that whoever it is
00:51:58.640
or wherever we are in those situations, we're following a legend. Yeah. The man with the golden
00:52:04.300
mic and, you know, the man who made so many careers possible, you know, I mean, I don't think
00:52:09.700
Fox news would have existed without Rush Limbaugh. So who knows whether I'd be sitting in front of the
00:52:13.720
microphone I'm in front of right now. Um, but I have to say, I know you're more financially oriented
00:52:18.900
and obviously Russia is very, very much political, but I get why you've been so successful. I mean,
00:52:24.480
I'm sure our audience can hear it here. You're, you're, you have this folksy manner
00:52:28.380
but what you're saying is really brilliant. You have a, an amazing ability to condense
00:52:32.980
dense information into a way that's really digestible. That's a gift in any, in any job
00:52:38.440
that requires communication for as it's like mainstay. Uh, and it's fun listening to you
00:52:43.620
because even somebody like me, who's kind of dense when it comes to finances can understand
00:52:48.240
you make it simple. So, you know, you kind of idiot proof your, your messaging, which I appreciate.
0.99
00:52:55.040
Well, thank you for the promo. You've had, you've had me on your show and I appreciated it. And, uh,
00:52:59.640
I hope you'll come back and help us as we, as we deal with these numbers that we were talking
00:53:03.220
about at the beginning of the show and see how they're actually playing out in our economy.
00:53:06.640
Anytime, anytime. Honored to be with you. I'm proud, proud of what you're doing and, uh,
00:53:10.600
excited for all your success. You deserve every bit of it.
00:53:13.200
And while I have you, don't forget to go and subscribe to the show. Go ahead and subscribe.
00:53:21.540
That way you won't miss any episodes and download the show and five-star reviews. Would you do it?
00:53:27.480
Would you do it for me? Five stars. And, um, how about a review? Cause I'd love to know what
00:53:32.320
you thought of Dave, what you've been thinking about any of the episodes we've been doing and
00:53:35.980
who you would like to see on the show. Who would you most like to listen to? Give me some
00:53:41.940
suggestions. Cause we get a lot of our guests actually from those suggestions. You can do it
00:53:46.160
online. You can do it on our social media, uh, wherever you do it, do it. Cause it's helpful
00:53:50.080
to hear back from you guys. And we'll talk again soon. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show.
0.97
00:53:55.500
No BS, no agenda, and no fear. The Megan Kelly show is a Devil May Care media production