The Megyn Kelly Show - Dave Rubin on Voting For Trump, Gay Marriage and COVID Hypocrisy ｜ Ep. 28

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00:00:31.220 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.140 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.500 Today on the program, we've got Dave Rubin. I love this guy.

00:00:50.560 If you haven't checked out Dave's show, you can see it on YouTube,

00:00:52.820 you can download it on podcasting, anywhere you get your podcasts.

00:00:55.960 You can see it at the Blaze TV now. You are missing out.

00:01:00.780 He's so well-informed. He's so thought out. He's so reflective.

00:01:05.800 And I think you're going to find he's got a lot of wisdom to offer you.

00:01:08.580 This is a guy who spent most of his life as a liberal,

00:01:11.100 who only over the past few years has evolved in his thinking to the point where he actually,

00:01:17.080 for the first time in his life in 2020, voted for a Republican, for Donald Trump.

00:01:22.820 And he's got some really interesting reasons why. So we're going to talk to him in just one second.

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00:02:31.300 And now, Dave Rubin.

00:02:35.120 Dave Rubin, thank you so much for being here.

00:02:37.840 Megan, I am looking forward to chatting. You know, there's a very short list of relatively

00:02:43.920 sane people these days, and I've got you on the list. So let's see what happens.

00:02:49.340 I'm honored. Same, by the way, same. All right, so let's talk about where we are politically,

00:02:54.300 since that's the biggest story in the country right now. Trump's claims through Sidney Powell

00:02:58.520 and Rudy Giuliani, his lawyers, that he has actually won this election, that they've sort of shifted a bit

00:03:05.560 from just doing individual claims of voter fraud or voter issues and state to state to massive voter

00:03:12.400 fraud on a national level, thanks to these Dominion voting machines that they think that

00:03:19.460 they're alleging have been essentially hijacked by bad guys at Biden's instruction on election night.

00:03:26.940 How do you view it?

00:03:30.100 All right, there's a lot there. Now, I did actually watch the press conference. I saw Rudy and the

00:03:38.820 leaking hair dye and everything else.

00:03:40.620 Oh, that was a sad moment.

00:03:42.420 That was a sad moment. And it's like one of those things where it's like the hair dye leaking then

00:03:47.680 becomes a far bigger story. Or it's like that is the one thing that mainstream will cover

00:03:53.100 more seriously than they will cover the allegations. Now, of course, the allegations aren't true just

00:03:59.820 because they're saying it. But she did bring up a couple interesting things here. So you're right.

00:04:05.240 It's not just about these little flips and when ballots got in and the rest of it. Now they're

00:04:10.780 saying that Dominion, the voting software, that it really, in many ways, they're sort of arguing it

00:04:15.100 was intentionally designed to do massive voter fraud and switch millions of votes. And she talked about

00:04:21.300 that there's a function in there that can drag and drop votes, meaning you can actually with a click

00:04:26.280 basically drag them from Biden or from Trump, send them to Biden, or you could do it the other way

00:04:30.800 too, of course. And then you can actually just throw them out into the trash bin like you have

00:04:36.000 on your desktop. Now, those are serious allegations. They're saying they have proof of it. They're

00:04:41.480 saying they've got the affidavits and they've had people, insiders at Dominion and the rest of it.

00:04:47.200 And as I've been saying on my show for a couple of days now, as I've heard you say, as, as Tucker

00:04:52.000 said on his show in the last couple of days, uh, at some point you got to really show us the

00:04:57.340 evidence. And I think some of the confusion here is that for everyone that exists in this sort of

00:05:03.620 day-to-day media craziness, it's like, we've become accustomed to just getting information all the

00:05:10.220 time. The second something happens, we need to know about it. We need to share it. We need to be

00:05:14.060 outraged and the rest of it. And it's like Sidney Powell, like, unless this woman who is a respected

00:05:20.760 lawyer and Rudy Giuliani, who, you know, he's a bit of a character, obviously, but this is a guy who,

00:05:25.660 you know, fought the mafia in New York city. He was, uh, you know, what he worked in the Reagan

00:05:30.720 administration in the justice department attorney. I think he was like associate attorney general,

00:05:35.120 something like that. Um, and obviously mayor of New York during nine 11, like, unless these people

00:05:40.420 are sitting there to genuinely burn down their careers, reputations, in many cases, their personal

00:05:47.640 lives and everything else, then I suspect there probably is something there, but you know,

00:05:53.400 unfortunately we don't have a great media to, to deal with what might be true. And we do have to,

00:05:59.220 yeah, yeah. And we do have to wait till we see the evidence. So I'm not taking their word for it by any

00:06:04.540 measure, but, but I would say the reason I've been covering it a little more on my show is because,

00:06:10.720 you know, the media in effect is just ignoring it or making it sound like they're conspiracy theorists

00:06:15.320 or crazy people. Now this is the same media, you know, Jake Tapper and the rest of them. And I always

00:06:20.840 call out Jake Tapper. Cause it's like, he was the last chance for anything decent at CNN. And it's like,

00:06:25.160 well, you guys ran with Russia. Yeah. Well, you guys ran with Russia collusion for, for literally

00:06:30.680 years. I don't know if you saw it this morning, Megan, but I tweeted out something about Jake and

00:06:35.220 I asked my audience, can you guys find me a list of Jake's tweets about Russia collusion? And then,

00:06:40.900 you know, the, the sleuths of the internet, they do it and they find all of his tweets and it,

00:06:45.140 and it all reads as crazy now, but it's like, this was a power we had to just have people on

00:06:50.020 the internet do research for us. I'm going to use that more often. Are you paying your researchers

00:06:54.220 over there? Come on. What an idiot I am. I'm like, God. No, but for real, somebody. Yeah.

00:06:59.600 But people pulled together like a, you know, a series. I don't know if they use tweet deck or

00:07:03.460 whatever they use of all of these like crazy conspiracy theories that Jake was flouting on

00:07:07.920 his show and, and on Twitter and everything else. Now the point is, okay, you did that. It is what it

00:07:13.720 is. I'm not here to put you on a list or get you fired, uh, which is a lot, you know, usually what

00:07:18.280 the left seems to want to do with us. Um, but the point is you guys went with all this crazy stuff.

00:07:24.020 Hillary Clinton was talking about Donald Trump being an illegitimate president. And now if you

00:07:27.980 even question anything, you're evil. And that asymmetry is what I find myself fighting, uh,

00:07:35.420 the most at the moment. And that's just, that's just sort of where my energy is. And, and it doesn't

00:07:40.840 mean any of this, these allegations are true, but the fact that the media is ignoring them to this

00:07:46.180 level, just knowing how corrupt the media is, it's kind of like, well, then there probably is at least

00:07:51.080 something there. Yeah. It's like, well, let's, let's at least spend some time keeping an open

00:07:57.240 mind to whether it could be true, because that's, that's sort of how we've gotten to this point in

00:08:02.660 the Trump presidency where there's no faith left in the media. And many people have no faith in Trump

00:08:08.080 because they have, they've lied many, many times. And I, can I wait to spend a moment because I will say,

00:08:15.720 I think Rudy, who has had an amazing career and was completely beloved after nine 11 and for years

00:08:21.340 thereafter, there's no question he's changed and he's gotten nuttier. I mean, I just like hard to

00:08:26.100 argue against that, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. I did notice that they don't have somebody

00:08:32.480 like Jay Sekulow on here who is like, he's the real deal. This guy argues in front of the U S

00:08:36.820 Supreme court all the time. He's been one of the president's lawyers. I'd love to hear what he has to

00:08:41.160 say. Cause I, I do trust his integrity. So Megan, I mean, I have a theory and I'd love to hear your

00:08:46.020 thoughts on this, that the longer you fight the system, sort of the crazier you will appear to be,

00:08:52.160 it's almost an inevitability. So it's like, you can watch those videos. They're all over YouTube

00:08:56.560 of Trump on Oprah and on David Letterman and on Phil Donahue and all those shows of the eighties and

00:09:02.880 nineties. And Oprah's literally telling him to run for president and everyone's very friendly and nice.

00:09:08.460 Now they call him a racist. But if you look at the way Trump is his affect, his demeanor,

00:09:13.300 the calm, soft way that he speaks. And he's basically saying the same things that he's saying

00:09:20.100 now. And now he does it in a much more, uh, you know, braggadocious way and, and over the top and

00:09:25.960 his speech has become a little stilted or whatever. And he's more of a character. But I think there's

00:09:30.940 some version of going of that going on with Rudy too, where it's like, when you fight the system,

00:09:36.320 and again, this does, this doesn't mean you're crazy, uh, you're perfectly honest or any of

00:09:41.280 those things. But when you're fighting the system and you see what we know, Megan, like, you know,

00:09:46.000 this, how evil and corrupt the media is and how they destroy people. And you keep doing it and you

00:09:51.580 do it for decades and decades and decades. And you have people who once were your greatest allies now

00:09:57.120 calling you racist and a bigot and all of those things, which is exactly what Trump and Giuliani 0.98

00:10:01.460 and the rest of them have, like, I think it sort of will ultimately make you crazy. So when you say 0.94

00:10:07.680 that Rudy is, you know, he was an effective lawyer and he was obviously a great mayor and all of those

00:10:12.320 things. And, but now he does come off as a little nuts. I kind of grant him the leash on that. Like,

00:10:19.060 it's like, man, you were fighting this thing forever and you fought the mob and you fought the

00:10:23.480 media and you took unpopular positions, but fought for what you believe in and had to deal with all of

00:10:29.440 that nonsense and being set up by Borat and everything else. And it's like, yeah, you come off as a

00:10:34.760 little crazy. And I think that's what happened to Trump too. It was like, you watch those early

00:10:38.840 videos. This is a pretty soft-spoken kind of thoughtful guy. And it's, that's not really what

00:10:44.340 we think of him now. And I think that's partly just, you go through the machine and then you have

00:10:48.960 to get hardened and, and in a way it will twist you. And I don't even know if I mean that in a

00:10:55.880 negative sense. You know what I mean there? Well, I do, but I think there's a distinction

00:11:01.220 there, which is, uh, and, and certainly we do need to believe in our president of the United

00:11:05.500 States, but politicians lie lawyers, lawyers live and die on their credibility and Rudy Giuliani and

00:11:12.460 Sidney Powell will probably have other cases after this one, or at least I'm sure they would hope to

00:11:18.340 have other cases after this one. And if your credibility is gone, you're dead. Like you, that's why

00:11:24.620 I think their arguments in court have sounded different than the way they sound in front of

00:11:29.500 the cameras. They haven't been alleging fraud in the way they have publicly in front of the judges.

00:11:35.100 And that's what you have to listen to because you, you may not lie to the judge as an officer of the

00:11:39.480 court. That is an ethical breach. You can lie to the media till the cows come home and pretty much

00:11:44.160 everybody does. And so I actually think the, you know, the hair dye going down the side of his face

00:11:48.560 was, it just sort of added to the, this is like my batty old uncle who just says crazy stuff off the

00:11:54.020 internet. But, but, and I don't, I don't mean to disparage Rudy. I just mean, that's, that's why

00:11:58.160 people are looking at him. Like he's changed. And I don't know if I believe him anymore.

00:12:02.160 Sidney Powell, I trust Sidney Powell is the one who represented Michael Flynn and it made a huge

00:12:08.560 difference in his case. And I, and she was a former U S attorney down in Texas for years. And she's

00:12:14.200 argued tons of cases in front of the federal courts of appeal. She's got a huge success rate and she's

00:12:22.020 being really explicit here. We have a soundbite of what she said, um, about, you know, the whole

00:12:27.220 dominion voting. Listen, this is stunning, heartbreaking, infuriating, and the most unpatriotic

00:12:38.360 acts I can even imagine for people in this country to have participated in, in any way, shape, or form.

00:12:47.500 And I want the American public to know right now that we will not be intimidated. American

00:12:53.780 patriots are fed up with the corruption from the local level to the highest level of our government.

00:13:01.120 And we are going to take this country back. We are not going to be intimidated. We are not going to

00:13:06.600 back down. We are going to clean this mess up now. President Trump won by a landslide. We are going to

00:13:14.100 prove it. And we are going to reclaim the United States of America for the people who vote for 0.96

00:13:19.720 freedom. She went on to say, I don't allege what I can't prove. I mean, that's powerful stuff. And

00:13:27.800 you can hear it in her voice. Now, of course, you know, you can almost hear the nerve and the nerves

00:13:32.180 in her voice as well, because she's not teary, didn't she? Yeah. Right. So the question is, look,

00:13:37.660 her tone and inflection and all that don't prove anything, obviously. And just saying words

00:13:41.840 isn't proof also. But it gets to your point, which is, OK, so is this woman who is a highly

00:13:47.900 respected lawyer with a great track record and everything else, is she right now, in effect,

00:13:54.420 gaslighting herself? Is she burning down her entire reputation, her entire life and everything else

00:14:01.140 in the name of Donald Trump or something like that? And that's why I think this is so much more complex

00:14:08.200 than the media is letting us see. And that's why, you know, when she was on. Well, well,

00:14:13.020 when she was on Tucker, it's like, you know, Tucker was kind of saying, well, you didn't give us the

00:14:17.380 proof. You didn't give us the proof. But she wasn't on Tucker. Tucker was lamenting that she

00:14:21.920 that she didn't give him the proof he'd been asking. Right. Right. Sorry. So so he's in effect,

00:14:27.060 he's saying, OK, there's no you know, there is you didn't give us the proof, meaning we asked you for

00:14:30.580 proof. You didn't give us anything. But as you just said, what you do with the media is very

00:14:34.740 different than what you do in the courts. And she is saying we have the evidence for it. And by the

00:14:39.840 way, she's also saying that it'll prove that Donald Trump won in a landslide. Now, right now,

00:14:45.100 let me jump in on that, because what I was trying to say is that their message in court is weaker

00:14:50.320 than the message they offer publicly. And so so that that's actually not an effective strategy,

00:14:56.500 because you want if you have great evidence, you get it before the judge. The judge is more

00:15:01.060 important than the public first in reversing electoral results. They are not they say they're

00:15:07.800 not going to try this case in the media, but they 100 percent are. Why did they hold a huge press

00:15:11.060 conference and say all those things? They do want to try the case in the media. And that leads many

00:15:15.120 to believe this is all about a PR strategy for a soft exit for President Trump. If you actually have

00:15:21.200 evidence of voter fraud, if you actually have evidence that that proves there's been some massive

00:15:26.300 fraud at this level in Dominion voting machines, it would be a massive international story. It

00:15:32.140 would be the most significant voter fraud in the history of the United States. You'd show it. You'd

00:15:39.200 when she was on Maria Bartiromo. She basically said, we have an affidavit from someone who's attesting

00:15:46.200 that the machines can work this way, but not necessarily saw them work this way here. When asked

00:15:53.300 like who in the Biden campaign was directing all this, she punted and kind of said Rudy Giuliani's

00:15:58.180 been handling that. We haven't had the chance to talk. You didn't talk about who in the Biden

00:16:02.460 campaign directed this whole fraud. And by the way, they're they're a really crappy fraudster because 0.99

00:16:07.480 while they may have cost Trump the presidency, if all of this is true, why did they let the Senate 0.97

00:16:12.140 stay red? Why did they let the Democrats lose House seats? Why did they let the Democrats do so poorly

00:16:17.800 on down ballot interstate races, you know, at the state level? It's to me as a lawyer standing on

00:16:24.000 the outside with no no dog in this hunt. It doesn't make any sense, Dave. Well, listen, that's why,

00:16:30.140 again, it's why, you know, if you're looking at Sidney Powell, it's like, all right, you're you're 0.98

00:16:34.220 putting your butt on the line. So, you know, when when the court cases are there, that's the moment

00:16:40.020 of truth. And and again, the only reason I'm sort of even in the space that's a little more like,

00:16:46.620 let's keep talking about this is because the media is ignoring it. And if we had an honest media that

00:16:52.540 would address everything that you just said right there, Megan, if that's what the mainstream media

00:16:56.580 was doing, then I would feel less inclined to talk about it. But because we don't really have that,

00:17:01.880 I feel like that's a space that needs to be filled. In many ways, that's exactly why I started doing

00:17:07.040 my show a couple of years ago, because I felt that there were so many things that the mainstream

00:17:11.960 media was either not dealing with honestly and maturely or ignoring outright. And I feel like

00:17:16.740 this is just an extension of it. It doesn't mean that anything that I've said here is right. It

00:17:21.420 actually doesn't mean that anything you've said here is right. It's like we're trying to look at it

00:17:24.700 and go, well, what what is the difference between trying something in the media versus the courts?

00:17:30.760 What is what is the actual human element of people that are potentially destroying their lives

00:17:36.340 in the name of this thing? What what about the people in the media that that refuse to cover

00:17:41.720 things that that go against their narrative that all of that is much more interesting to me in a

00:17:46.960 weird way than than the specifics of what may or may not have happened? Same, because that's going

00:17:52.300 to play out. We will get answers from the courts involved on these other theories. But you're completely

00:17:56.960 right, because what's happening in the media is it's infuriating. It has been for so long. And Glenn

00:18:03.900 Greenwald tweeted out. He summed it up as follows. Watching the same media people who spent four

00:18:09.320 years claiming the Kremlin had infiltrated and taken over the U.S. now sanctimoniously mocking

00:18:16.420 conspiracy theories is exactly like watching Gavin Dinner Party Newsom and Nancy Salon Pelosi lecture

00:18:23.460 and scorn people for covid violations. He's right. If this is all a lie or as you put it perfectly,

00:18:32.060 if this is all gaslighting by Giuliani and Sidney Powell, the media's history doesn't doesn't excuse

00:18:39.820 that, doesn't make it OK for them to gaslight us. But it does explain why it's so hard to believe

00:18:45.720 the media, why we are not accepting the blanket. This is absurd. This is tinfoil hat stuff, because

00:18:54.340 they're the ones who have been pumping completely empty conspiracy theories about Trump for four years.

00:18:59.700 Exactly. They have blown their credibility at every level whatsoever. And one of the things that I now

00:19:07.820 talk about virtually every single day on my show is that we are in a reality war. It's the war for

00:19:14.500 reality. So people think we're in a political war and we're in a cultural war. And, you know,

00:19:19.760 people say politics is downstream from culture. So you have to win culture first. And the left one

00:19:24.180 culture, meaning the left one media, the left one comedy, the left one art and all of those things.

00:19:28.700 And that's why the left one politics. But in many ways, though, I view the political war,

00:19:34.320 I would say it's a political battle and a cultural battle. But what what sits above that

00:19:38.460 is the reality war, because right now, I think every single person listening to this understands

00:19:44.680 that depending on who you listen to, what you listen to, even when you listen to it and who you

00:19:51.380 follow on social media, you basically could construct a reality that seems completely real

00:19:57.360 and legitimate to you. And that could be 180 degrees different than your neighbor.

00:20:02.980 And that is becoming a way bigger problem than whether the Republicans have this many people

00:20:07.680 in the Senate and whether the Democrats have this many people on the courts or whatever.

00:20:12.780 This idea that we no longer can agree on a basic set of facts.

00:20:17.540 That is the story that will lead us for the next decade, I think.

00:20:23.160 The complications with big tech and being manipulated by by algorithms that nobody knows

00:20:29.120 how to control a media that lies to us. And then, you know, ironically, I say this as someone that's

00:20:33.980 that's built a pretty great career and life online.

00:20:37.060 And I mean, now you've got a gajillion voices out there. And look, people like me and you,

00:20:41.600 we're doing the best we can. And I think most people are trying to do the best they can.

00:20:44.920 But we but there's so many voices out there that it's like, how the hell can anyone figure out

00:20:51.160 what makes sense? And I think we all have to sort of struggle with that and try to figure it out.

00:20:56.080 And I don't know that there's a good answer for it.

00:20:57.760 No, you're right. And this is why I think the future of media is direct relationships by

00:21:02.700 the audience with the hosts. You pick who you trust and you watch or listen to him or her

00:21:08.900 as opposed to just swallowing what an entire network is pushing on you that clearly has an

00:21:13.720 agenda. And hopefully when you choose your person, you don't just choose somebody who's

00:21:17.460 agenda driven. You choose somebody who's fact driven and tells you what's what is knowable as

00:21:23.180 fact because fact is still knowable. But I I totally agree with what you said.

00:21:27.540 I think we are seeing the culmination of Trump's distortion field and the breakdown of trust in

00:21:36.040 the American media, the totally justifiable breakdown of trust in the American media.

00:21:40.100 He lies there. That is a fact. He lied about his crowd size, his inauguration about Hurricane

00:21:46.300 Dorian's path. He lied about winning the popular vote, which he didn't. I could go on.

00:21:51.280 But they lie even more frequently. And as a group, their lies are ubiquitous.

00:21:57.000 They cross channel to channel. Now, I was just sort of thinking about it before the interview.

00:22:03.780 Forget all the lies in Russiagate. I mean, I could I could spend the next hour, right?

00:22:07.560 Like Trump had advanced access to the WikiLeaks dump about the DNC and Podesta and Trump directed

00:22:13.280 Michael Cohen to lie. All false buzz. Michael, don't forget CNN.

00:22:18.420 Megan, don't forget Donald Trump Jr. had lunch with someone for 15 minutes on the Upper East

00:22:22.240 side. And that proves everything. I mean, it was me.

00:22:26.240 Yeah. OK, so that but then, you know, you just look at like the two that really jump out at me

00:22:32.300 and make make my skin crawl are the lies about the Jussie Smollett case. Right.

00:22:37.480 Said at 2 a.m. in Chicago and during the middle of polar vortex, he had he bumped into two guys

00:22:42.520 wearing MAGA hats in the middle of Chicago who happened to just recognize this obscure actor

00:22:47.280 from the show. They just happened to have rope and bleach on them, then attacked him with a hate

00:22:52.360 crime. And the media ran to affirm it. Looking back at the headlines, he was attacked. CNN and ABC

00:23:00.600 is highlights the hate black gay Americans face. Washington Post. He was attacked by men hurling 0.99

00:23:05.880 homophobic and racial slurs and NBC and BuzzFeed. No alleged. No, he claims he was. And they were

00:23:13.340 100 percent wrong. The guy was a fraudster. He made it up. Just go talk to the police chief in 0.97

00:23:19.480 Chicago if you don't believe me. And there's no accountability, not to mention what they did to

00:23:24.120 Covington to the to the Covington kids, Dave. So we don't believe them anymore. They're not

00:23:28.240 believable. And their their complete sacrifice of their own trustworthiness has real life consequences

00:23:33.820 that we're seeing right now. Megan, quote unquote, journalists have destroyed journalism.

00:23:40.040 It's as simple as that. And then you can even take it to another level. Look,

00:23:43.940 politicians, I expect politicians to lie. Everybody. Now, is Trump a unique liar in the way that he

00:23:50.260 lies? You know, this is where Scott Adams, this is where Scott Adams would say something like Trump 0.92

00:23:54.740 is directionally truthful, meaning Trump is sort of kind of telling you the truth. But then, you know,

00:24:00.440 he's he's exaggerating and all of that stuff. But without unpacking all of that, does Trump lie?

00:24:05.820 Absolutely. Did Barack Obama lie? If you want to, you know, if you like your plan, you can keep it.

00:24:09.580 Of course he did. Do they lie? Of course they all lie. Some of them do it in a way that makes us feel

00:24:15.180 a little more comfortable or a little more sedated, but they all lie. But what you're pointing out is how

00:24:21.920 the media loves a narrative, because in effect, almost every journalist across the board is a

00:24:28.540 Democrat. They're they're a lefty, a liberal, whatever you want to call it. And they act as

00:24:34.440 such. So it's like when when the Jesse Smollett thing, it wasn't just that they all run to judgment

00:24:39.280 and the Covington was probably even more of a crazy case of that. But then think about the tweets from

00:24:45.180 Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer and Amy Klobuchar and Elizabeth Warren and Bernie and AOC, that this is

00:24:52.180 proof that America is racist. It's proof. And then they run with that. And then, by the way,

00:24:57.340 the media never calls them out on that. CNN doesn't run. Boy, you know, now that we realized

00:25:01.840 we got that whole story wrong and we almost, you know, started a race war here, we probably should 0.95

00:25:07.800 show you some of the tweets by the politicians that all turned out to be complete lies, even though

00:25:11.900 they're always telling us America's racist, yet they have to make up stories to prove the racism.

00:25:16.920 So it's like it's and I think, again, that's what Trump understood, that it's not just Democrats

00:25:23.060 fighting Republicans, conservatives fighting liberals. It's it's conservatives fighting

00:25:29.360 Democrats and the media. And that has led us that is exactly what has led us to this moment of sort of

00:25:36.780 complete destruction, where as we speak, you know, we're locking down these states more and more and

00:25:42.120 nobody trusts these people. Why would I trust Gavin freaking Newsom in my state of California,

00:25:47.700 the man who ruined San Francisco? I mean, you can't find anyone that will say anything good

00:25:54.400 about San Francisco. You've got all of the rich people leaving now because they because even their

00:25:59.220 beautiful houses aren't enough to stay at this point. And they're all going to Texas. He destroys

00:26:04.400 San Francisco. So what happens as a progressive? Well, you fail up and now you're the governor of

00:26:08.880 Cali. Now he's destroying California while he's eating at French Laundry, which is about a thousand 0.99

00:26:13.700 bucks a plate. Have you ever been there? I would have. I tried to go once. It was months of

00:26:17.500 reservations. Couldn't even get in. No, I've never been there. But when I when I come out to

00:26:21.640 California, we'll try to get in somebody else's name. Well, we'll try. More with Dave Rubin in

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00:27:52.760 club. I think the hypocrisy of not just the media, but these politicians who are now lecturing us

00:28:03.540 about the stakes of our democracy is stomach turning. It's like, I understand the Democrats

00:28:09.600 are looking at Joe Biden saying, fight, get out there and fight. And the Biden team's kind of saying,

00:28:13.580 this is going to play out the way we want it to. We're just going to stay quiet.

00:28:16.800 But he may be onto something because every Democrat who sticks their head up and says something 0.97

00:28:20.520 sounds completely hypocritical. And you nailed it with a tweet about Hillary Clinton's conflicting 0.94

00:28:26.080 messages, which I loved, pointing out that she, she, you got to love the chutzpah on this,

00:28:32.100 the Clintons in general. She tweets, protecting one man's ego is not worth damaging the legitimacy

00:28:38.680 of our democracy. I can just sort of hear hail to the chief playing in the background, right? Like,

00:28:44.000 thank you, Hillary. That's so well said. It's true. His ego's not worth damaging the legitimacy of our

00:28:49.360 democracy. And then you pulled up her, her tweet from September 29th, 2019, a year ago saying,

00:28:56.920 Trump knows he's an illegitimate president.

00:28:59.140 You know, Megan, one of the things that happens every morning when I wake up and I look at Twitter

00:29:04.480 is I'm like, oh, what am I going to have to respond to today? Like, what kind of crazy stupidity am I 1.00

00:29:10.500 going to be left having to tweet about? And I saw that tweet from Hillary. And then within one second, 1.00

00:29:16.020 I mean, like a millisecond, the next thought in my mind is, wait a minute, wait a minute. I know that

00:29:20.520 this woman has said that the last election was illegitimate or she was the rightful president or 0.94

00:29:25.860 some version of that. And then it took literally one more second for me to Google it. And then of

00:29:31.100 course, immediately I find that quote and then I screen grab it and I tweet it. And it's like,

00:29:37.260 man, again, if we only had a media that would call out both sides evenly, then it wouldn't leave

00:29:43.760 people like me who, again, I always tell my audience, I don't consider myself a journalist.

00:29:48.200 I'm not a journalist. I tell you what I think. I'm trying to do the best I can.

00:29:53.200 But I wouldn't have to do that stuff if the media would act honestly, but they refused to. So

00:30:00.860 they would rather burn their own house down. So it's like, you'll get a whole bunch of blue check

00:30:05.920 journalists today retweeting Hillary and being like, you go girl. And how great. See, she's a true

00:30:10.640 American. While at the same time, it's only a year ago. I mean, that was from, as you said, September 2019,

00:30:16.200 when she was saying Donald Trump was an illegitimate president.

00:30:19.960 Okay. So let's just talk for a minute about Trump, because I know you voted for him. You said it's

00:30:26.140 the first time you've ever voted Republican in your life. And it's been an evolution, you know,

00:30:30.660 which we'll talk about that from your lifetime as a Democrat to your voting, not just for any

00:30:36.140 Republican, but for Donald Trump. The scariest of all Republicans. The scariest Donald Trump. So you

00:30:44.980 actually, there was a moment where you had to fill out the little bubble for Trump or pull the lever

00:30:50.080 for Trump. What did that feel like? Well, it was a touchscreen here in LA. I did not have to show my

00:30:55.580 ID. So I could have been anybody. And then I could have gone back the next day and pretended I was my

00:31:00.060 neighbor because all I needed was a name and an address. But putting that aside, what did it feel

00:31:04.880 like? Honestly, it felt great, Megan. It really did. I'm not saying Donald Trump is the perfect person.

00:31:10.440 I'm obvious. Nobody's saying that. But I think he was the imperfect tool to fight something that I

00:31:18.840 think is much more evil than I think Donald Trump is. I think the idea of identity politics, which is

00:31:25.780 the most antithetical set of ideas that we've ever had to fight in America, in many ways, because it's

00:31:31.780 coming from within, as opposed to having to fight socialism or communism or Nazism from from the

00:31:36.640 outside. The ideas of, of, of identity politics, of social justice, critical race theory being

00:31:44.960 injected into our federal institutions, you know, things like Title IX that Obama put in that got rid

00:31:50.540 of due process at the, at the college level, these, these things. And then on top of his, his fighting

00:31:56.220 the media, he was the leader. He was the imperfect tool. He was the blunt instrument. And, and in many

00:32:04.100 ways, what I've likened this to is, you know, the barbarians are at the gate, like we're really debating

00:32:10.260 right now, as we wrap up 2020, we really are debating in America, whether this experiment is good or not,

00:32:16.460 whether this should continue or not, that really is on the table now. And people are really worried about

00:32:21.660 that. And I think Trump basically was, was at the gate guarding, and the barbarians are at the gate. And then 0.53

00:32:29.020 you've got all the elites, all the academic elites, all the institutional elites, the media elites, all

00:32:34.720 the political elites, they're all pointing at the guy who's keeping the barbarians at bay. And they're

00:32:39.560 going, Oh, he likes his steak. Well done with ketchup. And he has messy hair and he talks funny and he's

00:32:45.020 orange. And it's like, he was ironically, ironically, the one that was saving the institution. So I've argued

00:32:52.080 that he was in many ways saving liberalism and conservatism because he was saving conservatism for obvious

00:32:58.780 reasons, right? He, all the judges and everything else. He may not be a traditional conservative,

00:33:02.940 but most people would, would agree that he was doing well. If you, if you're a conservative and,

00:33:07.820 and he was saving liberalism in that he was the one that was, you know, liberals just talk all day,

00:33:12.700 right? Like even when, when the whole intellectual dark web thing blew up and all of these guys that I

00:33:18.320 have some, some serious major differences with now. Um, like when we were talking about all of this

00:33:23.800 stuff, it's like, we were just talking and I kept saying, well, when are we going to start doing?

00:33:27.120 And it's like, Trump did start doing by getting critical race theory out of the institutions and

00:33:32.040 reversing title nine and the rest of it. So it doesn't make him perfect. He ain't perfect.

00:33:37.100 And, and I don't know what really is there, but we, we, you don't get a Panther in a China shop.

00:33:42.060 You get a bull in a China shop. There is no metaphor of a Panther. I think we all wanted a

00:33:46.320 Panther. We wanted this like slick animal to walk into its China shop and bumps one thing over with its

00:33:51.960 hip and one thing over with its tail and then close the door nicely. But like, that's just not how it

00:33:57.780 works. That's so well put. It's like, when you think about barbarians at the gate, with all due

00:34:03.800 respect to Mitt Romney, that's not exactly the gate day with the perfect hair and the perfect

00:34:08.280 chiseled jaw and like the sweet, polite demeanor. Yeah. I don't know. Exactly. And Megan, that's why

00:34:15.660 right now, what you hear from a lot of like, sort of just like mainstream thinkers is, Oh, don't worry

00:34:21.080 because the Republicans will keep the Senate, which by the way, isn't even, we're not even sure of that

00:34:25.400 at the moment, but you know, if they keep it by one vote, that that will be the bulwark against the

00:34:31.080 radical left agenda because Biden is just a shell for that thing. Everyone knows Biden doesn't know

00:34:35.580 what's going on anymore. Like that's just obvious. I'm sorry. It's just sadly true. The idea that Mitt

00:34:40.400 Romney or, or one or two votes in the Senate, if, if they get the Senate, that that's going to be the

00:34:47.400 bulwark against this, this lefty agenda. It's like, it's, that's just crazy. Anyone could flip the

00:34:53.540 pressures, the public pressures, the personal pressures, just an honest decision that, that

00:34:58.200 maybe isn't a partisan line decision, that that is going to be the thing that keeps the system in

00:35:02.980 place, that keeps balance in the force. Like that strikes me as, as really short-sighted and not really

00:35:08.540 understanding human nature. You had a great line the other day about Trump that I was like,

00:35:14.380 that's so good. That's, that sums it up right there. Uh, and it was, it was, I don't know if

00:35:20.900 it was in this context, but I reused it later and cited you as, uh, as much legacy. I did. I said,

00:35:27.300 Dave Rubin came up with this, um, Trump's legacy. One of his legacies will be that he taught

00:35:33.660 Republicans how to fight. Yeah. I think, I think, do you think, do you think it's going to stick?

00:35:39.500 You know, like if, if Trump leaves office, do you think they'll have the same sort of

00:35:44.900 just resolve to fight these battles? Will they listen to the working class to fly over country 1.00

00:35:51.520 who spoke through Trump about what was important to them?

00:35:54.120 It's a great question. And I've been thinking a lot about this because I do think that that in

00:35:59.960 many ways, regardless of what happens now will be the legacy. Let, let's say he's a one-term

00:36:04.300 president. The legacy will be, holy cow, an insurgency was run. And for the people who

00:36:11.060 appreciate it and like it and are happy about it, they'll look back at it as folklore. And for the

00:36:16.380 people who hate it, and that'll be most of the mainstream, they'll, they'll look at it as how did

00:36:20.780 this horrific aberration happen. But the simple fact is Trump showed them how to fight. The

00:36:25.340 Republicans tried it with the decent guys, the quote unquote, decent guys. They tried it with

00:36:30.280 Romney. They tried it with McCain and it didn't work. So Trump said, okay, we can't do that. I'm

00:36:36.840 going to have to do some crazy stuff. I'm going to have to say some very crazy stuff at a debate about

00:36:42.120 Megyn Kelly, because that changes the formula. And, and that, whether you like it or not, whether you

00:36:49.560 like how someone fights or not is separate from whether fighting the way he has is effective.

00:36:54.640 And it certainly has been effective. And we'll, we'll see if it's effective for the next four years

00:36:58.900 or not that, you know, we'll probably know in the next couple of weeks, but how people will look back

00:37:03.960 on it is pretty interesting to me because one of the things that I'm definitely worried about is if

00:37:08.940 Trump loses right now, the 70 plus million people who voted for him, who see the world, probably Megan,

00:37:16.620 in a, in a similar way that we see the world, who see the grand battle in a, in a similar way that we

00:37:22.580 see it. You know, there's this phrase, everyone knows the red pill phrase. Like when you wake up to all of

00:37:27.620 the leftist stuff, basically in the mainstream stuff, and then you get red pill, that's the idea. But the

00:37:32.400 next version of that is black pill. That's the thing that's going on online. You can hear this a lot

00:37:36.740 now where it's like, once you've been red pill, but you realize that that isn't even enough. And then you're

00:37:42.620 just basically depressed. Like the whole system is just screwed and we're going to just end up in,

00:37:46.840 in perpetual awfulness. And I actually am worried that a lot of the people, if Trump loses a lot of

00:37:53.320 the people who started to speak up, who started to fight political correctness, started to fight

00:37:58.900 cancel culture, whether it was publicly or in their own life or whatever it was that a lot of them will

00:38:04.040 become black pill. They'll be like, Holy cow, Donald Trump couldn't even do it. So how can I ever do it 0.54

00:38:10.360 in my life? And then what I think happens is you probably get someone on the right. That's going

00:38:15.520 to be many more of the bad things that they purport Trump to be, because someone will come along on the

00:38:22.040 right and be like, see, Trump wasn't even enough. So now I'm really going to go all in on it. And that

00:38:27.240 of course was the danger to call Trump Hitler and a Nazi and far right. And it's like, he's, he's none of

00:38:33.160 those things. He ain't perfect, but he ain't any of those things. But you've, you've now positioned

00:38:38.580 yourself so that everyone else is a Nazi. And then what's the next thing that happens? You start 0.66

00:38:43.520 punching Nazis and attacking them at their homes and God knows what else. And preventing them from 0.99

00:38:48.420 getting jobs and putting them on lists. You know, to your point, I've, I've often looked at that

00:38:53.500 debate moment I had with Trump, the things he said about John McCain, him attacking the Gold Star

00:38:57.640 families, you know, the family, but these were not great moments for him. But the, the, the way I see

00:39:05.240 them is kind of akin to what you said. If, if there are barbarians at the gate, you want,

00:39:10.980 you want like that guy from game of Thrones. What was the one who was married to Khaleesi?

00:39:15.900 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I forget his name. The guy with the, yeah.

00:39:19.340 Right. You want the biggest, like meanest, scariest guy to be standing at the gate and you want him to

00:39:26.740 unleash hell on people who are coming to get you like bad guys, terrorists, you know, dishonest people 0.97

00:39:31.180 who want to say terrible things about you. That's who you want at the, at the front door. And that's 0.60

00:39:35.560 Trump. What you, that when, when Drogo comes back to sit at the dinner table with you, you really

00:39:40.740 can't expect him to put the napkin on the lap and the fork is on the left and hold the wine glass the

00:39:45.900 right way, you know, but that's, but I've been saying about Trump, this is the package that comes

00:39:51.060 in, you know, the bull who you're going to put in the China shop. This is the package that comes in.

00:39:54.960 Exactly. But that's what these, my most sort of frustrated position right now is with my last

00:40:03.640 remaining liberal friends who will still talk to me. I'm not even sure how many are left

00:40:07.160 because that seems to be what they think. Trump is, um, uh, Gadsad, who you probably know,

00:40:14.200 the evolutionary biologist up in Canada, who I think is, is a wonderful thinker. Uh, he talks about

00:40:19.220 how he's Trump is in effect, like an aesthetic injury to these people. And, and because of that,

00:40:26.080 even if he is, even if they can acknowledge that, Holy cow, he's doing a lot of the stuff that,

00:40:31.960 that, you know, we've been railing against, right? Like, so we all talk about why identity politics

00:40:36.440 is bad, why critical race theory in the institutions is bad, how it actually is injecting racism into the

00:40:42.520 system known as systemic racism. We all talk about it. Now here's this guy who comes and, you know,

00:40:48.540 he's orange and hair plugged and talks funny. And he actually starts doing the things, meaning

00:40:53.840 he's literally getting it out of the system. But because liberals have this, it's, it sounds

00:41:00.940 cliche, but I really know it to be true. Liberals like being liked in a way that conservatives,

00:41:06.400 I don't think do conservatives are more okay. Being disliked. I don't know. There might be some

00:41:11.480 psychological or philosophical, maybe even religious reasons for that, but liberals really like being

00:41:17.040 liked. So it's like, you'd rather be pointing and sneering at the guy or sit down with him at the

00:41:24.080 table, as you're saying, and you know, he's eating with his hands and it's getting all over the place

00:41:27.740 and there's sauce all over his face. You'd rather mock him afterwards than, than actually own up to

00:41:34.440 the fact that, that the only way a liberal order survives is that a couple of those guys are necessary

00:41:40.700 throughout time. I just fundamentally believe that. I think it's my own observation is,

00:41:46.940 I don't know if it's, they need to be liked, but I definitely think these leftists who I distinguish

00:41:51.380 from liberals want to feel better than there really is an elitism and a desire to hurt others in order

00:41:59.820 to build yourself up. They're damaged people. They're really damaged. And your average healthy person feels

00:42:05.080 no desire to hurt somebody else in order to make themselves feel worthy of anything. And so we're

00:42:10.700 not dealing with stable people who are trying to cancel everybody and lecture everybody and put down

00:42:17.080 huge swaths of the American public based on their, you know, whether they're male or female based on

00:42:23.240 whether they're white or black, that this isn't healthy and it isn't normal, but I don't tag all 0.99

00:42:28.880 liberals with that. But I, I do think there's an unhealthy amount who are really intent on feeling

00:42:34.600 better than, and any deviation from their standard of speech makes them do it.

00:42:40.380 Yeah. Well, just for the record, I mean, I, I know, you know, this, I don't say that about

00:42:44.140 all liberals, of course. And, and in many ways, if the, if the world was saying I could, you know,

00:42:49.240 look, I just wrote a book that was a defense of liberalism. I mean, the whole purpose of the book

00:42:52.860 is, is that liberalism is worth defending. Um, so of course I don't think all, of course I don't

00:42:58.620 paint all liberals with that brush. Um, and there is a distinction between leftists and liberals. And I,

00:43:04.600 I probably spent more time talking about that over the last five years than, than anybody. Um, but

00:43:10.640 as, as a general rule, you know, it's like one of those things, of course, all conservatives don't

00:43:14.880 believe this. And of course, all liberals don't believe this. My frustration with the liberals

00:43:19.000 right now is that I don't know what position they're holding that makes any sense anymore.

00:43:23.280 So I see all of my, I think they're on our side. I really think that they are secretly on our side.

00:43:28.600 Oh, of course they are.

00:43:29.220 Financial culture war. They're, they're just afraid.

00:43:32.020 Megan, they come to my house and eat my food and tell me that they're on our side. I have,

00:43:38.440 I still, I have illegal parties here in LA. I'm a real rebel, you know, and, and people that are

00:43:44.340 blue check, well-known work at high level media places who rail against Trump all day long,

00:43:51.280 come to my house and tell me they're Trump supporters. That is true. That is true. I'm not

00:43:55.760 going to out them right now, but that is true. And if you think about it, I think you particularly,

00:44:00.760 Megan, but your audience too, could probably figure out a few of them.

00:44:04.420 Well, it's funny to me because you used to be with the Young Turks network. I mean, they're,

00:44:07.800 they're good established left and you evolved. I, I love that that's where you were as recently as

00:44:15.800 just a few years ago and that your transition to this culture warrior, that's how I view you.

00:44:22.120 I don't even think Dave, I don't think Dave Rubin conservative or Dave Rubin Republican. I think

00:44:26.520 Dave Rubin culture warrior. And I would like to think of myself as the same because I think the

00:44:31.680 first amendment is worth fighting for. It's, I don't, it's not a partisan thing. It's an American

00:44:36.020 thing. Um, but so what did it like, I know you've got a couple of moments you, you specifically

00:44:42.660 remember where your eyes started opening. Can you, can you walk us through it?

00:44:47.700 Yeah. I mean, there, there are a couple like specific moments, but I would preface it by

00:44:53.260 saying that for about a year when I was on the Young Turks and people can find the videos. I mean,

00:44:57.340 I was a Bernie supporter. It's funny. People will find videos of me supporting Bernie and they'll

00:45:01.420 tweet them at me and be like, you seller sell out, you grifter blah, blah, blah. And I'm like,

00:45:06.540 no, I'm actually telling you the truth. When I tell you I evolved, like, do you think all of the

00:45:11.420 same things that you thought four years ago, eight years ago, 10 years ago, you know, do you have

00:45:15.600 synapses in your brain or do you believe you can evolve on things? Do you believe that you can get

00:45:20.500 new information and that you can compare that with what you believe and potentially change? Like

00:45:25.460 that's, that's actually what makes us different from the animals. But for about a year on the Young

00:45:30.480 Turks, I was realizing that something, the equation stopped working. So in other words, everybody that 1.00

00:45:36.080 they disagreed with everybody, and there was almost no exclusions to this was a bigot and a racist and a 0.95

00:45:42.340 homophobe and Islamophobe and the rest of it. And it started to feel very lazy to me because it was 0.56

00:45:47.060 like, wait a minute, wait a minute, how am I so bright and so smart and so good and moral and

00:45:53.660 ethical and everything else? And everyone I'm around is so bright and smart and moral and ethical

00:45:58.900 and everything else. And everyone that we disagree with is the worst of all things. Like the math

00:46:03.420 didn't add up anymore. Like it seemed like, wait a minute, this is just too easy. Something's not right

00:46:08.040 here. And then a couple, a couple specific instances popped up. I write about him in the

00:46:14.200 book. And one of them was when, when Sam Harris was on Bill Maher's show with Ben Affleck and they

00:46:20.500 got into a big fight about, about Islam and Bill. And then suddenly, because Ben Affleck called Bill

00:46:28.020 Maher and Sam Harris, gross and racist. Suddenly the media was telling me everybody across the media,

00:46:33.340 and especially at my network, the Young Turks was telling me that Bill Maher, I didn't even know who 0.96

00:46:37.800 Sam Harris was until that night, but that Bill Maher was a racist and a bigot. And it's like, 0.95

00:46:42.200 Bill Maher is the standard bearer of the left in America for the last 30 years. And just watching

00:46:47.200 this overly emotive reaction as Bill Maher and Sam Harris tried to calmly explain the difference

00:46:53.080 between people and ideas that you would never want to be bigoted towards people. In this case,

00:46:57.920 you wouldn't want to be bigoted towards Muslim people, but you are allowed to criticize ideas,

00:47:02.940 meaning you can criticize religious ideas. You can criticize political ideas. You can criticize

00:47:08.480 the rules of a, of a sports game. If you can't criticize a set of ideas, well, then you're giving

00:47:13.720 a lot of power to that set of ideas to control you. But, but since I've talked about that one a lot,

00:47:19.300 I'll tell you the, one of the other ones real quick, because I think, you know, I'm 99% sure,

00:47:24.080 you know, the guy, David Webb, who, who was a Fox news contributor. And he was a serious,

00:47:30.020 he is a serious XM host on the Patriot channel. And, and years ago when I had a show on serious

00:47:35.400 XM, I was on the out queue channel because if you're gay, they had a separate channel for you 1.00

00:47:40.480 because I guess they like separate, but equal. I was begging to be on the political channels,

00:47:44.360 but they threw me on the gay channel and I met David, I met separate, but equal to the gay channel 0.90

00:47:50.940 with you. Yeah, exactly. And, uh, so I met David in the hallway one day and we started chatting and

00:47:56.460 we quickly became friends. And I used to go on his show basically every week and I was the lefty

00:48:00.860 and he was the conservative and we'd talk it out. And I'm sure you've been to that serious XM

00:48:05.320 building in midtown and right downstairs is Del Fresco steakhouse. And we used to go out for steaks

00:48:10.480 and we'd have whiskey and just have a blast. And it was great. And we've become good friends over

00:48:13.940 the years. Well, one day I was on air with the young Turks and they're showing a clip of David Webb on Fox

00:48:19.100 and they're calling him an uncle Tom and a sellout and all, you know, all of the worst things that

00:48:25.820 you could possibly call somebody. And I'm watching them do it. And suddenly it became crystal clear to

00:48:32.500 me. It was, you guys are the racist. Here is a black man, a man. I shouldn't say, I should say a man 0.99

00:48:39.220 who happens to be black, who, who I know David. And, and this guy believes what he's saying and has

00:48:45.520 taken unpopular positions for a long time, which is not easy for black conservatives to do Thomas

00:48:51.000 Sowell, Larry Elder, Candace Owens, et cetera. I know he's a good man on top of the fact that he

00:48:56.440 believes what he believes and believes what he says. And here you are saying how everyone else is

00:49:01.900 racist, except when a black man says something you don't like, you're allowed to call him the worst 0.84

00:49:07.360 things imaginable. And once I saw that, because, because the fact that I was friends with him made it 0.95

00:49:13.000 real to me, it wasn't just like, you know, you see these people in the cable news boxes and they're

00:49:17.640 sort of like Muppets in a way they don't even come off as human, but it was like, I know this guy,

00:49:23.400 he, this is a buddy of mine and that you think you can do that. Well, you know what? You're not for

00:49:28.960 black people. You're for black people who behave the way you want. And I would say that's in many 0.99

00:49:33.700 ways, the most racist you could possibly be. So that was, that was just one of the incidents.

00:49:38.240 It is racist. It's, and it's so incredibly diminishing to look at somebody like David or

00:49:43.140 whomever and say, they must think a certain way because of the color of their skin. They must.

00:49:50.440 And if they don't, there's somehow a traitor, a race traitor. I mean, that is incredibly racist. 0.77

00:49:57.160 But they've reduced the arguments down to you're racist, you're a sellout or you're a grifter. Like 0.99

00:50:04.420 that's pretty much all they got. So when a guy like David Webb or Thomas Sowell, because he's an

00:50:10.000 economist is probably even a better example of this. Larry Elder is another one. When he will

00:50:14.320 explain why, and I've interviewed Thomas Sowell, it was one of my greatest honors as an interviewer.

00:50:19.060 I watched it. Can I just interject there? Cause I watch, I watched it and you were like,

00:50:23.220 you know, I'm just gonna, you know, do you want me to tell you some of the amazing comments I've

00:50:26.900 gotten about you? And he's like, no.

00:50:28.600 He goes, I asked him again, after the interview, I said, you know, I asked people if they could,

00:50:36.040 you know, say something nice about you, if you've affected them, maybe I could read some to you.

00:50:39.740 And he goes, young man, I've been doing this for a long time. Just like, he's over it. You know,

00:50:48.000 he's doing what he thinks is right. And he doesn't care if people like him or don't like him. Like

00:50:51.980 that's the, that's the greatest freedom you could ever have.

00:50:54.400 Totally. Hashtag goals, right? Like that's how I feel when I listen to him.

00:50:58.360 Yes. And by the way, if you are not familiar with Thomas Sowell, get familiar with him ASAP.

00:51:03.600 And if also, if you don't know Larry Elder, you got, I'm sorry, Dave, but you've got to Google

00:51:07.840 Dave Rubin, Larry Elder, systemic racism and watch their two-part interview, which was

00:51:12.060 spectacular. And I know another eyeopening moment for you. But he, you know, Larry Elder knows his

00:51:18.420 facts. He's like, I brought facts, bitches. And man, when he unleashes on you, it's great. It's great 1.00

00:51:23.140 stuff.

00:51:24.140 Well, look, that's why I can truly say, and I don't know how many people can say it,

00:51:28.140 but my best and worst professional moment were at the exact same time. It was my worst moment

00:51:33.840 sitting there with Elder because I claim that systemic racism exists. I was still a lefty

00:51:38.000 and he then beats me over the head with facts. So it's, so it's my worst moment in that regard.

00:51:43.120 Cause I, I didn't come to the fight ready. I didn't come armed with information, but it's

00:51:47.620 my best moment because at the time we were at aura TV, which is a digital network that Larry King

00:51:52.200 founded. And I went into the control room after, and we had a huge crew and several of the producers

00:51:57.340 immediately ran up to me. Don't worry, Dave, we're going to cut that. Don't worry about that.

00:52:00.540 That, that won't be seen. And I immediately said, no, we got to leave it. Like, what am I as an

00:52:06.460 interviewer? What am I as someone that's trying to spread something decent and true? If when,

00:52:11.340 when a real moment happens, I cover it up to save face. So it truly was my gold.

00:52:17.800 And it was great too, because he was like, what else he got? He, he took apart the, I think it

00:52:22.340 was the police systemic racism charge. And like, what else, what else is systemically racist laid

00:52:26.740 on me? And you were like, Holy shit. This is scary. Yeah. And Larry and I are good friends now. 1.00

00:52:34.400 And it's like, happy to continue that conversation at, at any time. But, but look at the way these

00:52:41.380 guys, soul elder, uh, Candace to a different degree. Cause she's sort of, you know, more new school 1.00

00:52:47.480 and out of, out of the social media world. Uh, but David Webb, look at the way these guys are

00:52:52.040 treated by the so-called tolerant people. And it's not as if they're just throwing bombs out

00:52:57.600 there that don't make any sense. Thomas soul has written books on how the welfare state destroyed

00:53:02.620 the black family and traps people in perpetual poverty. And then people can't get out of subsidized 0.99

00:53:07.960 housing. And that handouts actually increase the likelihood that you'll end up in poverty and,

00:53:13.960 and all of those things. But if you even say any of that, or you cite them somehow,

00:53:18.620 you're a racist, you're a grifter. And they're even worse than that. 0.99

00:53:22.700 His would be a household name. Thomas soul would be a household name. Sadly, I don't think he is.

00:53:27.800 If he were saying liberal things, if, I mean, this incredibly brilliant black intellectual giant

00:53:34.640 who has taken real risks in his life and taking these heterodox positions and is so well accomplished

00:53:41.480 and well-written and he's ignored, he's, he's ignored by the mainstream. Same. I see Coleman

00:53:46.300 Hughes as the same up and coming on the other side. He's only 24, but he's, he's the next Thomas

00:53:51.220 soul. And although he's more liberal, but who cares? They still won't put him on because he's

00:53:55.720 not liberal enough. Cause he's not saying the right things about black lives matter. Right. Right. 1.00

00:54:00.180 Quote unquote. Right. And I think that's why there's this weird collection. I don't know if we're in

00:54:05.220 the middle or where we are of people who are just standing up to this nonsense, you know, whatever

00:54:09.760 your political stripes are or used to be, it's like a new front in the war and in the culture war

00:54:16.000 and the war for the soul of the country. I would say that the future of America and the future of

00:54:22.180 all Western societies is a center right future. Meaning that conservatives got a lot of the big

00:54:30.160 stuff, right. About family, about belief, about limited government, about individual rights. I think

00:54:37.880 those are like sort of the underlying principles that we need to have a flourishing free pluralistic

00:54:44.260 society. And by the way, that's exactly what we've had for 250 years in America. So that doesn't mean

00:54:50.080 that they got everything right in that exact moment. So, you know, we could have had women, women's 1.00

00:54:55.540 rights earlier, the ability to vote. Obviously we should have freed the slaves earlier, although we did 1.00

00:54:59.300 it. We freed our slaves faster than I think any Western nation from its inception and fought a war

00:55:05.040 over it and everything else. Gay people couldn't get married until the last decade. Like, could we 1.00

00:55:09.500 have done things a little bit faster and have we made mistakes like Japanese internment? Of course 1.00

00:55:13.220 we've made mistakes, but the arc has always bended towards more justice, more freedom and more equality

00:55:19.020 for more people. We're now changing that into this equity thing where everyone as Kamala Harris put up 0.96

00:55:25.380 in that little animated video two days before the election, everyone will end up in the same place.

00:55:31.120 This is deeply dangerous. And if it was true, then I guess I would be vice president because,

00:55:35.020 you know, we'd all end up in the same place and that's what, what she's going to be, I guess.

00:55:39.120 So, so I think the future of all Western countries will be a center-right future,

00:55:43.940 meaning it will hopefully be some level of limited government, hopefully some level of free markets.

00:55:51.280 And then we can, we can have that debate about the social issues. And by the way,

00:55:56.520 that is exactly what conservatives are doing right now. So 15 years ago, you could barely find one

00:56:03.080 conservative who was publicly for, for gay marriage. Now the ship has sailed and virtually everybody is, 0.57

00:56:09.740 or they just take the libertarian approach, which is, you know, I have my own beliefs, but the state

00:56:13.940 should provide equality, which is exactly the way it should be done. And our founding documents would

00:56:18.400 have laid out. But even on something like abortion, you know, I, I describe myself as begrudgingly pro

00:56:24.740 choice. And I think a first trimester should be the cutoff. And, you know, look, a guy who we talked

00:56:30.980 about earlier, Rudy Giuliani, at one time, he was the leading candidate to be president on the Republican

00:56:35.480 side. Remember that about 10 years ago, obviously didn't go well, but this is a guy who was

00:56:39.620 for gay marriage and who's pro choice also. And he's obviously a Republican. So Republicans have

00:56:46.500 shown and conservatives have shown, Hey, we're willing to do a wide 10 thing. And the left in

00:56:53.040 essence is saying, check off the same stuff that AOC checks off, or we're taking you out. And by the

00:56:58.920 way, even Nancy Pelosi knows that because whenever she goes against AOC, she calls her a racist. So

00:57:04.200 it's really twisted game right now. Coming up in one second more with Dave Rubin and a bizarre story

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00:58:38.860 Coming out as a Trump supporter was not the first time in your life you've come out.

00:58:43.700 So, and you've been pretty open about this. So let me start with that. Which was tougher,

00:58:48.240 coming out as gay or as a Republican?

00:58:49.700 Megan, truly, believe it or not, coming out as a Trump supporter was way harder.

00:58:55.200 Way, way harder. I know that sounds crazy. I know that sounds crazy. But the thing is,

00:59:00.560 you know, any gay person or anyone that's walking around with any kind of secret, because, you know,

00:59:04.640 you can be closeted about anything. And the way I always describe closeted is like, it's like being

00:59:10.060 a painter and saying that you just won't use blue, meaning that you won't use the full set of emotions

00:59:16.460 that you have as a human being to become fully who you are, to become fully self-actualized.

00:59:23.780 And when you're closeted, you know what that's like. You can start lying about things without

00:59:27.580 even intentionally lying. And you just, you're never fully there. It's really hard to live one

00:59:34.140 life. Like, we all know that. It's really hard to live one good, decent life. I'm trying the best I

00:59:39.600 can, and I fail at it all the time. But it's really, really hard to live two lives or three

00:59:45.140 lives. And that's what closeted people end up doing. But the thing is, when you're closeted

00:59:49.300 about your sexuality, it's usually an inside job, meaning you have to grapple with that from an

00:59:56.080 inside meaning. What does it mean to you? And then, of course, there's outside pieces of it. What is my

01:00:01.080 family going to think, my friends, et cetera? But especially in modern times, in the last 20 years,

01:00:06.240 if you come out of the closet, and sure, there are some exceptions to this, right? You could come

01:00:11.180 from a very evangelical Christian family or an Orthodox Jewish family or a more religious Muslim

01:00:17.440 family. Are you going to have some family problems? Sure. But in essence, if you come out as gay, 0.91

01:00:22.240 especially in 2020, you will be treated like a king. The red carpet is rolled out. It's great. It's

01:00:28.880 wonderful. You're also different. So you get social justice points. It might actually help you get a

01:00:33.300 job at this point and everything else. As a Trump supporter, you come out as a Trump supporter. And

01:00:37.700 in effect, the job opportunities might roll up. Your neighbors might turn on you. Your family might

01:00:44.620 turn on you. And by the way, these are all real things. These aren't just imaginary things. So I know

01:00:49.700 it really sounds crazy. But dealing with the fallout that I've dealt with over the last couple months

01:00:55.980 from not only my family members, but friends, lifelong friends, some of the public people that

01:01:03.260 used to be very closely aligned with me that now would never retweet me or share any of those,

01:01:08.380 you know, share a post or anything. It's like, that's been real. That's been real. And for some

01:01:13.200 reason, I don't have any problem showing up to a Turning Point USA event and talk about being gay

01:01:18.380 married. Actually, if I say it, I usually get a standing ovation. Like that's just a fundamental

01:01:23.180 difference these days. Sadly, it doesn't surprise me. Has it been physically stressful?

01:01:32.260 Oh, yeah. I mean, when I when I started telling people what I thought about politics. So this is

01:01:38.940 now like 2014 2015, when I was really waking up. And I started saying, hey, as a lefty guys, like we're

01:01:46.460 not defending liberalism. We're not defending free speech, all of those things. The amount of hate that

01:01:52.240 I was getting from what I thought were the tolerant, diverse, good guys was unbelievable. I mean, just

01:01:56.900 endless, you know, death threats and emails and Twitter and just all of that stuff. And I think

01:02:04.020 you know the story, but I developed alopecia areata, which is autoimmune disease that they don't know why

01:02:09.480 it happens. But in essence, they can only chalk it up to stress. And basically, your white blood cells

01:02:14.720 start attacking your hair follicles. And I lost about 40% of my hair in patches, it was absolute

01:02:22.440 nightmare. And I was going on camera with sprayed on hair and, you know, like matte powder, and all

01:02:29.440 this stuff. I went on this crazy experimental medication that in many ways was worse than the

01:02:34.220 than than the alopecia itself, because it caused me to be basically like bloated and broken out and hot

01:02:40.500 all the time. And amazingly, only my face was not affected. But my entire body was just

01:02:45.700 broken out and red and itchy and sweaty. I mean, it's horrible to even to even think about. But you

01:02:51.300 can go back. I mean, if you go back and look at my videos, look at my why I left the left video,

01:02:55.820 which is in many ways the video that put me on the map. I was in the middle of it then and my hair

01:03:00.580 is sprayed on you could look at my eyes, I look broken. So you really did feel connected to Rudy

01:03:06.920 in that moment we started with. Yeah, like I had some spray on hair and it could have been dripping

01:03:13.540 down the side of my head. Fortunately, PragerU, they keep that studio pretty cool. But I feel your

01:03:19.260 kinship. No, honestly, Dave, can I tell you, I we've been beaten on the left pretty good. But I will

01:03:24.920 say I have experienced a little bit of this from from the right after I asked Trump that debate

01:03:30.960 question. And it wasn't just Trump who came after me for nine months. It was what I felt at the time

01:03:36.340 was sort of the Breitbart crew led by Steve Bannon, who are calling me the C word all the

01:03:41.360 time and everything in the book and really ramping up the threats. And I at the time, I remember

01:03:46.100 being on my heels because I thought, wait, the right doesn't do this. The right isn't into

01:03:50.520 this kind of thing. I don't like what this isn't like that. I don't get it. And I remember

01:03:56.180 I started breaking out. I started to get bad acne. And my dermatologist, he moved. I can't

01:04:02.520 remember what happened, but I wasn't I didn't have access to him. And I went to this like

01:04:06.380 temporary, like a new doctor, a young woman who had just gotten out of med school. And

01:04:11.640 she's looking at me. And now I'm like in all the papers because Trump is calling me all

01:04:15.480 the names and we just had the debate. And it's like an incredibly crazy time. And she looks

01:04:20.400 to me and she goes, have you been under an unusual amount of stress? I'm like, have you been living

01:04:27.480 under a rock? Do you have television? For the love of God, just give me an antibiotic or something

01:04:36.260 and I'm out of here. And I didn't go back to her. But it does like that kind of stress can take its

01:04:41.160 toll on you physically. And obviously, in ways that may not be that pretty, unfortunately. So let

01:04:47.200 me let me just back up with you for one second and ask you. Let me ask you a straight person's

01:04:51.760 question, which is how did you know that you were gay? You know, it's so funny because straight 1.00

01:04:58.120 people love this question. So it's kind of funny you prefaced it with that, like a straight person's

01:05:02.600 question. And I think gay people are kind of like that that question again. But I'll do the I'll do the 0.98

01:05:09.160 best I can. You know, it's funny. I I didn't come out till I was very late in life. So I came out at

01:05:15.820 like 25. And I don't know if you know the story, but I came out literally at 1230am on September 11th,

01:05:24.840 2001, in the Times Square subway station, to my friend Mike, who was a comedian. He was the first

01:05:31.660 person that I came out to he was he was openly gay. But literally, I woke up, you know, seven hours

01:05:36.840 later, and America was under attack. And, you know, I lived in New York City, I lived on the Upper East at

01:05:42.120 the time. And that in and of itself set me back a long time. Because when you're closeted, there's

01:05:48.880 only room for one in that closet, it lends itself to paranoia, it lends itself to depression and all

01:05:54.480 of those things. And I truly, truly thought that 911 had something to do with me. I know that sounds

01:06:00.540 completely insane. But I thought I had withheld this secret for so long. And I finally unleashed

01:06:07.060 it to the universe. And then what happened? The city I live in was under attack. It sounds like

01:06:12.820 that sounds crazy. When I when I tell people the story, I know it does. But I genuinely thought

01:06:17.320 that but to directly answer your question. I mean, I guess I was I was kind of always attracted to guys.

01:06:23.400 But I didn't think that meant you were gay, really. Like I thought gay. And this is how things change

01:06:29.200 really fast. Like, I grew up in the 80s. So there were no decent gay role models. I don't think that 0.98

01:06:35.280 there's many right now. I mean, some people say I am. And so be it, I guess. I'm just trying to be

01:06:41.720 myself. That's it. But I thought gay meant you like the theater, and you like Madonna, and you like

01:06:48.500 dancing, and you like fancy clothes. And it's like, I didn't really like any of that stuff. I played

01:06:55.280 with I played Nintendo with my friends, and we had Transformers, and we played sports and all of

01:07:00.940 those things. And then there was just this like one other thing about me. But for some like guys.

01:07:06.700 Yeah, right. Like, you know, like, there was this other thing. And it was like that that is what it

01:07:11.620 is. But for some reason, I in my mind, I could kind of like compartmentalize that into Oh, well,

01:07:16.860 I'm not gay. Like, I'm not gay. I'm not Bruce Valanche. You know, like, I'm not gay. I'm not

01:07:22.900 who is that guy on Liberace? Yeah, I'm not Liberace. I'm not like, I'm not that I'm not

01:07:28.540 wearing a feather jacket. So I don't know. I kind of thought I kind of thought everybody was like

01:07:35.120 doing this thing on the DL and just didn't talk about it. But then ultimately, what happened into

01:07:40.960 my mid 20s was, you know, you can't live with secrets for that long, they will crush you. And I

01:07:47.920 was depressed. I was doing drugs. I was drinking a lot. I was never honest with anybody. I didn't

01:07:54.000 look good. I wasn't taking care of myself. My apartment was a disaster. As Jordan Peterson said,

01:07:58.180 I really needed to clean my room. And then and then I slowly started cleaning my room. And then

01:08:03.480 things subsequently got better. Hmm. I thought you're gonna tell me it was when you realized

01:08:08.000 you love the Golden Girls. Because I know you love the Golden Girls. No, you know, it's it's funny

01:08:12.960 you say that. Because then people say, Well, Dave, you don't seem gay. And they they usually mean 0.67

01:08:16.520 that as a compliment, by the way, because they what that means is somehow you're like straight

01:08:20.260 acting. And and especially gay guys love straight acting like the low. I like a guy who acts like a 1.00

01:08:26.640 guy. But like, I guess years later, when I started really thinking about it, look, when I was 11,

01:08:34.640 12 years old, I love the Golden Girls. Like I thought it was the funniest thing ever. Everything about it

01:08:41.000 was hilarious. Like there is some affinity, maybe because it's these women who are outspoken, 1.00

01:08:46.520 and they talk about sex. And, and also, it was funny. And it was over the top in the outfits.

01:08:52.660 But there is something very gay about it. By the way, there's an episode of the Golden Girls.

01:08:56.660 There's two episodes that involve Blanche's brother, Clayton. And one episode, he comes out.

01:09:02.900 And one episode, he actually marries a guy. Now he marries this guy, Doug, who's a cop,

01:09:07.980 Clayton and Doug, they act completely like guys. There's nothing gay about either one of them in that

01:09:13.200 traditional sense. And I guess I do remember seeing that I'm about 1213 years old. Maybe Yeah,

01:09:20.120 maybe, maybe a little older, actually, I think it was around 1990. So I'm about 14 years old.

01:09:24.040 And I do remember thinking that and thinking, Oh, I could, I guess I'm kind of like that. Like,

01:09:29.760 I'm like Doug the cop. And he happens to be hanging out with Clayton, like something like that. But that

01:09:36.040 was basically the gay role model that I had.

01:09:38.940 Well, I love that. And I have to tell you, when I when I heard that about you, that you love the

01:09:43.320 Golden Girls, that's when I knew I loved you. Because I love that show. And I fell in love with

01:09:49.860 it. Back after my dad died, my dad died in 1985. And I was 15. And my mom was 44. And my mom used to

01:10:00.260 watch that show all the time. And I thought, Okay, it's making her feel better. And it made her feel

01:10:06.260 better. Because she could see a life ahead with maybe other women, you know, or she's kind of 0.99

01:10:10.540 hanging out. And she, she would be okay, if she never found another man to love or to love her.

01:10:15.480 And we so we watched it all the time. And it was side splittingly funny, you know, back in St. Olaf

01:10:21.600 with Rose and Sophia, picture it Sicily, 19. Oh, whatever, you know, they were all so funny. And

01:10:29.120 you know, that we always ask, well, my gal pals, and I always ask you, like, who would you be? And I

01:10:33.640 would definitely be a Blanche, I would be a Blanche. She's just so funny, and kind of open with her 0.86

01:10:37.620 sauciness, which I would like to think I am. So I have to ask you, who would you be?

01:10:42.920 You could definitely be Blanche. I would be Dorothy for sure. Dorothy was the realist. You know, she 1.00

01:10:48.280 was she was the anchor. She she, you know, there was a world weariness to Dorothy. But I'll tell you

01:10:53.460 one line that to me captures the whole show. Because you know, people say, Well, what do you love about

01:10:57.800 it so much? And yes, what you just said there is the right thing, which is a it was funny, like genuinely,

01:11:02.400 absolutely, absolutely funny. But then they also dealt with, they dealt with race issues and age

01:11:08.120 issues and sex issues and sexuality, obviously, and economic issues, because they were often

01:11:13.820 struggling for money. I mean, they dealt with all sorts of stuff. But in the episode, when Clayton is

01:11:19.280 marrying Doug, Blanche is really struggling with it. You know, she's from the Old South. She can't 1.00

01:11:23.660 understand that her brother's gay. But he's marrying Doug. And she says to Doug, she says, Why do you want 0.95

01:11:29.840 to marry this man? And and Clayton, he has a southern accent. He says, Well, I'd do anything

01:11:35.500 for Doug. And Doug would bend over backwards for me. I mean, they made a gay anal sex joke 1.00

01:11:43.840 that made a point. It made a point. Also, can I just ask I like I'm not an expert on this, 1.00

01:11:50.420 but wouldn't have to be bend over forwards in order to actually be a gay joke? 0.61

01:11:53.600 Megan, it works. Trust me, it works. And with yoga, anything's possible. Okay. 0.80

01:12:01.400 Thank you for this education.

01:12:03.780 Now we're really going there. But but that that to me captures the whole thing, because it's like,

01:12:08.140 not only was it wickedly funny and kind of subversive, but remember the Golden Girls, 0.90

01:12:12.220 this is about 1991, NBC, eight o'clock primetime. That's a very different world than we live in right

01:12:19.020 now. And you know, for all these people, everyone always says, Well, modern family had this great gay

01:12:23.120 couple and blah, blah, blah. I didn't watch modern family. But I was told by many people that one of

01:12:27.240 the guys in the in the gay couple that he had a fear of public displays of affection. So they they

01:12:31.960 sort of wrote it in that I guess there wouldn't be much affection. But meanwhile, back in 1990,

01:12:37.020 they're making like these really subversive jokes like that. So that that to me, like captures the

01:12:42.300 show in so many ways. I don't I wonder whether, you know, people who are openly gay, lesbian have

01:12:49.240 an advantage over straight people in that they've had a major obstacle to overcome revealing this

01:12:56.220 thing that for far too long, was shamed in and if you can reveal something like that, like you did

01:13:02.080 back at a time when I think people will be surprised some younger listeners gonna be surprised to learn

01:13:05.940 that as recently as 2001, there was still shame attached to one's sexuality. But there was there

01:13:12.280 absolutely was. It's almost like you got a leg up because you've always you've already overcome

01:13:16.980 something massive and prove to yourself you can do it no matter the consequences. And for far too

01:13:22.040 many, the consequences included losing family members, losing friends, being judged, being

01:13:27.060 called awful names. And as you know, you know, you make it through something like that, you emerge

01:13:31.720 stronger, you just do. You know what, those things are not disconnected, Megan, they're they're really

01:13:36.780 not. I think if you can get through that, and you're right, it's very different now, because you won't

01:13:41.600 feel that pain point, probably, as a young person coming out. Now, you could come out as non binary,

01:13:48.060 you wouldn't feel that that pain point. But I think the basic answer to what you're saying is yes,

01:13:54.440 you know, I've talked about this to a couple gay people that I've had on my show Douglas Murray,

01:13:59.180 who I think you know, who I think is one of the great. Yeah, he's one of the great thinkers of our

01:14:04.060 time. I mean, I think he's sort of the next Hitchens. He's a he's a conservative from England who

01:14:09.080 happens to be gay, and we've become quite good friends. And I asked him that the first time I

01:14:13.940 interviewed him, I said, Do you think that because you're gay, you this allows you to see the world in

01:14:20.620 a slightly different way? And that it's actually given you something. And what he said was that

01:14:27.520 it perhaps makes your skin a little bit thinner, which is a little bit of an offshoot of what you just

01:14:34.620 said there. But I think it gets to the same point, meaning that if, if you are gay, and you come 0.70

01:14:39.960 out, and then you say to the world, Well, here I am, well, then you're a little more sensitive.

01:14:44.740 And you actually might pick up on some of the bad things before other people do. Because you have to

01:14:51.320 your who you who you fundamentally are, is not what the average person is. So it might give you a way

01:15:00.120 of looking at the world that's a little more different. The other way that I've described this is,

01:15:04.160 you know, maybe it is that that straight people are supposed to spread the genes, and gay people 0.68

01:15:09.480 are supposed to spread the means. Meaning, you know, gay people can't biologically reproduce. 1.00

01:15:14.540 David and I are working on it now. But it's a whole freaking situation with eggs and surrogates and all 0.99

01:15:19.540 that kind of stuff and a lot of money. But that gay people, why did why does so much culture come out 1.00

01:15:24.720 of gay people and comedy and music and art, and fashion and all of these things? Like, I don't think 1.00

01:15:30.100 that's disconnected. And what's ironic is now that as the gay community, quote unquote, community 0.99

01:15:35.580 becomes more leftist, as GLAAD and the HRC, and all of these big organizations just become lefty

01:15:42.900 organizations, it's actually killing the creativity of the gay community. So there's a real dichotomy

01:15:49.640 there that I think gay people are starting to wake up to.

01:15:52.020 Well, I feel for you on the effort to reproduce, because my two of our best friends are married 0.96

01:15:58.720 lesbians, and they they have it so much easier, you just got to go to the sperm bank. I mean, 1.00

01:16:03.600 I'm not saying it's a nothing.

01:16:04.320 You can get sperm anywhere.

01:16:05.460 Yeah, it's kind of easy. And, and they, you know, they, I don't know, I think they're pretty

01:16:11.640 open about their relationship. They have an ex, one of them has an ex wife. So there are three moms

01:16:16.420 in this family, which, you know, can get kind of complicated, but they own who they are. And I

01:16:22.000 laughed with with them, because the way they did it was one had one of the babies, then the other

01:16:27.540 one had the other baby. And then, you know, the first one had the other, actually, the second one

01:16:31.360 had the third baby. But anyway, I said, I'm like, you know, you're selling lesbianism all wrong. This 0.94

01:16:36.280 is this should be the pitch. You don't have to have each of the babies, you're gonna have a partner

01:16:39.760 who can have the other baby, then it bounces back to you. And then they explained to me that they

01:16:44.060 weren't interested in selling it. So okay. Yeah. Well, you listen, you want to sell

01:16:48.260 lesbian, right? Lesbianism, right? You just tell me you don't have to deal with all these 1.00

01:16:51.080 annoying middle aged men, that would probably wait, I got to tell you something really funny 1.00

01:16:56.360 about the whole sperm donor thing. And all that's not sperm donor, we had to deposit, I guess. So

01:17:02.080 the day we were, when we were deciding to do all this, it was a few weeks before we had been

01:17:07.920 planning on it for a long time. But when we were finally ready to like deposit the sperm and actually

01:17:11.960 begin the process, it was right as the lockdowns were starting. And our fertility doctor called us.

01:17:18.580 And it was Friday, he said, you've got to get here in the next hour, because we could be closed

01:17:23.400 for months. Like you've got to deposit this sperm now. So we hop in the car, we have to drive about

01:17:30.940 45 minutes to get there. We get there, we get out of the car. And remember that feeling right when

01:17:36.440 lockdown was starting, like it just felt crazy. Like it really just like you could feel like this

01:17:41.020 craziness in the air. And we get out of the car, we're going to the sperm clinic to basically both

01:17:47.300 of us whack off in a cup. That's something I never thought I was going to say to Megyn Kelly.

01:17:52.140 But we're about to walk in there. As we're about 10 feet from the door, my phone rings,

01:17:57.220 and it's Trump Jr. So now I'm on the phone with Trump Jr. And he's just babbling. I don't even

01:18:01.000 remember what he was saying. But I'm on the phone with him. I'm about to go into the sperm clinic,

01:18:06.100 we're going into lockdown. And then I look to my left, and standing outside the sperm clinic,

01:18:10.820 just standing there with a skateboard is Dennis Rodman. And I thought, this is insane. The world

01:18:17.340 is locking down. I'm on the phone with the president's son. I'm standing next to Dennis

01:18:20.880 Rodman on a skateboard, and I'm going to whack off in a cup. Like, it was a hell of a day.

01:18:25.840 This cannot be my motivation for this scene. I'm going to need something else, Lord.

01:18:30.020 All right. You're like, you can't. And what Dennis Rodman was doing at a sperm clinic,

01:18:35.320 I have no idea. I don't think we should ask. I don't think we need to know. Doug is going to

01:18:40.400 kill me for telling the story, but I'm going to tell the story anyway. So we did IVF for our babies.

01:18:48.060 And it's a long story, but we did. And so he apparently, and maybe you know this, but let's

01:18:54.400 say you're going to do the, I don't know, the transfer or like whatever. The sperm is going

01:19:00.220 to be needed by the doctor on a Friday. So it like matters when you give the sperm to the doctor.

01:19:05.460 And it matters when the previous, forgive me, but ejaculation happened. And it's all like down

01:19:12.100 to a science. And the doctor will tell you like, make sure the last time you guys have sex is like

01:19:15.840 two days before he comes in to give the deposit. So you're like, oh, wow, there's a lot to remember.

01:19:20.000 Okay. Well, we kind of forgot. We were busy, whatever. And we, at that time.

01:19:27.060 You're having a good time.

01:19:28.780 No, no, we weren't. Well, kind of, but not the way you think. We went to see my Nana,

01:19:33.740 my Nana, who at that point, I don't know where this is going, but this just got weird.

01:19:39.760 We went to see my Nana, who at the time I think was like 97. And she was in her senior citizen's

01:19:45.840 house and her little apartment. And the three of us are there playing dominoes. And out of the blue,

01:19:52.180 I remember, oh, this was, we're at the 48 hours mark. This is it right now. I look at Doug. I'm

01:19:59.380 like, you got to go into that bathroom right there and take care of business. He's like, what? Go take

01:20:05.120 care of it. He's like, I can't do it. I can't. I can't. And of course it's like an old person's home. 1.00

01:20:10.400 And so like the, the distance between the floor and the bottom of the bathroom door is like four

01:20:15.480 inches. So he went there and he can hear me and Nana playing the dominoes and Nana being like a one

01:20:23.780 or a two, you know, like she's all her mannerisms. And she's like, what's taking Doug so long? He must

01:20:32.880 have a bellyache. I think he does now. And I think something's wrong with him. Let's just give him

01:20:38.060 some time. Wow. He finally emerges. He's like, I cannot believe you just made me do that. But

01:20:45.560 you know what? The end story is we, it worked because we got pregnant. It worked out. Wait a 0.52

01:20:50.900 minute. You got to finish this story. So he does this. Now you got to rush. You got to leave Nana

01:20:55.200 in the dust. No, no, no, no. He didn't do it in a cup. He just had to, he just had to do it so that

01:21:01.120 like when he had to do it for real, everybody would be 48 hours old. That's what I got. You're right.

01:21:06.100 Cause you, they want you to have this window, this, this ejaculation window. 0.99

01:21:11.460 Sperm. That's like 48 hours old is like the strongest sperm, I guess. Right. Um, probably 0.95

01:21:16.500 every fertility doctor at home right now is saying wrong Kelly wrong, but that's basically

01:21:20.400 the rule. They wanted it to be like 48 hours before the real deposit had to be made. And

01:21:24.960 poor Doug, he's going to kill me for telling you this story. What do you think Andrew Cuomo

01:21:32.520 would think about that? Cause you know, he's obsessed with old age homes. Oh my God. I

01:21:36.740 literally just bought me and Janice Dean, one of those window creeping Cuomo's to put on your

01:21:42.840 window for Thanksgiving. I am so mad about the whole COVID thing. I know you have been too. I'm,

01:21:49.940 I'm so ticked off about the disgusting hypocrisy of these politicians who are lecturing the rest of us, 0.95

01:21:58.620 like Gavin Newsom before he does exactly what he's telling us we can't do. And de Blasio here. 0.94

01:22:05.240 And I'll tell you the one that's really ticking me off. Chicago mayor, Lori Lightfoot. She shared

01:22:11.480 video of herself in a crowd speaking without a mask right after the election. Yay. Biden. Then she

01:22:18.560 ordered everyone to only leave their houses for work, school or essential needs. Okay. Like I can go out

01:22:22.820 and I can celebrate Biden's win without a mask or surrounded by people, but you can, you can only go

01:22:27.500 to work or school. Then she was questioned by it, about it by a reporter. And she defended it by saying,

01:22:33.440 and I quote, look, this has been a super hard year on everyone. And there are times when we actually do need

01:22:40.380 to have relief and come together. That's screw you, Mrs. Mayor. 1.00

01:22:49.320 It's such a gross statement, like truly gross, because either what she's saying is this is all BS 0.98

01:22:56.620 and we can ignore it when we want to ignore it. Or, you know, basically I'm putting orders on you that

01:23:04.240 I just feel I have my emotional needs and I've got to go be happy when I've got to be happy. But

01:23:10.120 how many people's lives will I destroy in the process of that? It almost is irrelevant, but I think

01:23:14.940 people have absolutely had it. Look, Megan, here's the truth about COVID right now. We know, and anyone

01:23:20.480 can Google this. It has a 97 to 99.5 recovery rate. And we now have two major pharmaceutical

01:23:28.100 companies that are promising us basically a 95% coverage of the vaccine. This it's not to diminish

01:23:37.240 any of the people who have lost their lives or got sick, but young people and basically everyone

01:23:42.660 that doesn't have some other issue. So usually a respiratory issue or very old, everyone recovers.

01:23:49.940 So the idea that we have destroyed, we have in effect, in some ways you could argue, we have

01:23:55.280 decided to destroy the Western world. We have decided to lock people in their homes, destroy businesses,

01:24:02.280 destroy dreams of anyone that wanted to be a restaurateur or own a small business, all of the

01:24:08.500 things that give us purpose and passion in life. We have decided to let our government officials who

01:24:14.020 then go eat at $1,000 a plate French laundry dinners with 12 people and no masks indoors. We have

01:24:20.640 somehow said to them, okay, you should have some authority over us. The silver lining on this is that I

01:24:26.820 think that the French laundry thing, the light foot thing, the, the Cuomo, you know, all of the

01:24:33.080 hypocrisy that we're seeing out of them. I think it is igniting something within people. And maybe we

01:24:38.580 needed this, this absolute hysterical authoritarian strain to come out fully to get enough people to

01:24:47.880 push back because I'm at this point, look at, look at every time that Gavin Newsom tweets. I mean,

01:24:54.040 the replies are incredible. It's people who are saying enough is enough. And maybe we forgot that

01:25:00.640 feeling in America and maybe this is what it will take to get it back. This guy who was eating at

01:25:05.880 French laundry, Gavin Newsom without a mask on surrounded by people well within six feet, well 0.99

01:25:11.160 within six inches, uh, recently tweeted out his office did that you should be putting your mask on

01:25:16.940 in between bites when you were at a restaurant in between bites and sips of your drink. Uh, needless to say,

01:25:23.320 he wasn't wearing one and he was inside, um, and breaking all the rules himself. And he, and you

01:25:27.440 know, of course he, he said he was sorry, but who cares? Like they're, they're not going to follow

01:25:31.060 these rules or setting for the rest of us. Testify sister. That's what I would say to that.

01:25:35.220 I I'm, we're not sure what we're doing for Thanksgiving this year, because normally this

01:25:38.900 is the main holiday that we host. And we have about 20 family members here and we love it. And

01:25:43.060 people stay for a week and David's a great chef. And, and we're doing all that this year

01:25:47.520 because of, because of COVID and travel. And we have a lot of young family members and my mom's a

01:25:52.680 little older and has some respiratory stuff. We're not hosting everybody. So we're still trying to

01:25:56.880 figure it out, but I promise you, Megan, I'm going to do whatever the hell I want to do in my house

01:26:01.520 with, with whoever ends up here. And, and it is no right of the government to tell me who I can have

01:26:08.160 in my house or how we're going to behave in my house. And, and by the way, the only way we fight

01:26:13.220 back is by police officers and other officials saying, Hey, I don't want to spy on my neighbors.

01:26:20.460 I don't want to bust into people's private homes. And that's what will take the power away from

01:26:25.420 people like Gavin Newsom and Andrew Cuomo and, and Cuomo who had the gall to, you know, write quote

01:26:32.300 unquote, write a book about leadership in the midst of this thing, as if he wrote it anyway. It's like,

01:26:37.000 come on, man. That was my Biden impression. You like that? Come on, man.

01:26:40.580 Come on, man. Yeah, that does sound like Biden. Everything's got a man, man. So I,

01:26:45.480 there is another guy, a sheriff in upstate New York, my, my people upstate New York. He's from

01:26:50.300 Fulton County. His name is Richard Giardino. He, the guy used to be a sitting judge. He used to be

01:26:54.420 a prosecutor and now he's a sheriff, which I kind of love. I love that whole career path,

01:26:59.140 but here's what he had to say about Cuomo's orders on Thanksgiving.

01:27:02.540 I was coming out of a convenience store. We have them Stewart shops up here and a veteran. And I know

01:27:07.360 he's a veteran because he had the baseball cap on said to me, sure. If I got a question,

01:27:11.140 are you going to be enforcing the Thanksgiving limited 10 people? And I said, what do you mean?

01:27:16.660 He goes, well, my wife and I are arguing because we have Thanksgiving planned and there's 14 of us

01:27:21.460 with our new grandchild that we haven't seen. And we've been, haven't seen the family since April.

01:27:26.440 I says, what are you concerned about? Well, you're going to send the police. We don't want our son

01:27:30.160 getting in trouble because of his house. And I realized the anxiety the man had that we were

01:27:35.920 going to be knocking at his door with law enforcement and check and see how many people

01:27:39.480 are at Thanksgiving dinner. I said, sir, I'm not going to do that. You know, enjoy your family.

01:27:43.880 We're not going to do that. We're not going to go door to door. We're not going to arrest your son.

01:27:47.380 And so when I got back to the office, I said, I got to do something because

01:27:50.840 the anxiety that this rule is causing is unbelievable.

01:27:54.340 So good on him. He's not going to enforce it either. And we need more level-headed sheriffs. It's

01:27:58.700 no enforcement. It's no surprise that law enforcement is, are being the measured ones

01:28:02.840 here. And these politicians are creating a sense of hysteria.

01:28:07.340 That is a good man right there. And you're right. That's exactly what we need more of.

01:28:11.320 That's what being a patriot is. I'm not going to arrest my fellow citizens for exercising their

01:28:15.860 freedom on Thanksgiving the day we're supposed to be thankful for all of the freedoms that we have

01:28:20.720 in this incredible country. And the fact that they want us, they, they really do. They want to take

01:28:26.720 away Thanksgiving from us. They want to take Christmas away from us. And that's by design.

01:28:33.840 There is a really twisted force out there right now. I don't know if, did you ever see the

01:28:37.960 never-ending story by any chance? Remember the never-ending story from the 80s?

01:28:41.920 It's a, it's a children's movie in effect. But, but basically what it was about is that in this,

01:28:47.480 in this fantastic, in this fantasy land of Fantasia, it's called that the nothing is spreading

01:28:52.880 and nobody knows what the nothing is, but it's destroying everything. And wherever the nothing

01:28:57.260 goes, everything is destroyed. And there's in effect, nothing there. And what you realize at

01:29:02.160 the end of the movie is the nothing is just that people stopped dreaming. People stopped believing

01:29:07.680 and people stopped being passionate. And that created room for nothingness to come in.

01:29:14.080 And that's what I sort of feel like is happening right now. We're afraid of our own shadows. We're

01:29:19.000 fighting with family members about politics and things that we have no control over. We're giving

01:29:24.520 power to people who for some reason would love to keep us in our homes. This is not what a government

01:29:30.900 was designed to do. And again, that's not to diminish the reality of COVID. But you can't also diminish

01:29:39.460 that it's on you as a human being to figure out what is right for you and your family. Like you,

01:29:45.060 Megan will figure out what's right for your kids. And if you want to have your folks around or whatever

01:29:49.180 else you want to do for your holiday, and that's, that's the right way to do it. But instead we've

01:29:52.860 decided, okay, a mom and pop store that sells home goods can't be open, but target can be open,

01:29:59.540 or they'll tell us 10 PM. You can hang out with 10 people outside till 10 PM, but then there's a

01:30:05.020 curfew and you can't hang out with people after 10 PM. It's like, none of this makes sense. None

01:30:10.020 of this is like the virus is looking at its watch and it knows to really come out and get them. So

01:30:15.740 we really have to leave the streets. I, to me, it's infuriating, especially because of the schools

01:30:21.440 and what's happening there in New York city. They just closed the schools again. And even Nick

01:30:26.800 Christophe of the New York times, who is no fan of president Trump's came out with an opinion piece

01:30:33.080 saying credit where it's due. Trump was right on this. He's been demanding for months that the

01:30:38.480 schools reopen and stay open. And he was right. The schools have not been a major source of the

01:30:45.680 coronavirus transmission. Remote learning is a catastrophe for children, especially low-income

01:30:51.640 children. And, you know, you look at what's happening with the low-income kids who's, especially

01:30:56.040 these Democrats are always trying to tell us they care more about that. They don't have computers.

01:31:00.280 They don't have wifi. A lot of them, hot meals. They only, they only get those at school.

01:31:05.760 One eighth of the children are living with an addicted parent. The affluent kids get the leg

01:31:09.860 up because they go to private school or they create these learning pockets where they pay a tutor to

01:31:14.320 come in. It is inflicting long-term damage, long-term damage. And these politicians, they're saying it's

01:31:22.080 necessary despite the zero transmission rate or thereabouts in schools. While they're out there at the

01:31:28.620 restaurants, Dave, it's infuriating. It's absolutely infuriating. It's like, I don't ask the government

01:31:34.480 to do much. You know, like I pretty much fall libertarian on anything and on everything. But

01:31:39.300 the one thing that I would ask the government to do is basically have some level of trustworthiness

01:31:46.280 so that when things like this happen, we actually can all feel sensible. But the reason, it's not just

01:31:52.640 that everyone feels crazy right now because of the election. It's that everyone feels crazy right

01:31:57.500 now because we've been, we've been cut off from each other. We live in Twitter more than we live

01:32:02.580 in the real world. You walk by people at the supermarket and they have masks on their face

01:32:07.300 and you can't tell if they're sneering at you or smiling at you. You throw sunglasses onto that and a

01:32:11.980 hat. And next thing you know, it's like, is this guy about to rob a bank or punch me in the head? 0.94

01:32:15.700 Or is he saying hi to me? We were cutting off all of the human pieces of what being human

01:32:21.120 is all about. And it, and we're doing it as if any of these people strike us as really good,

01:32:28.140 honest people. Like does Andrew Cuomo, who's fighting with reporters now and, and Gavin Newsom

01:32:33.820 and Lightfoot, do they strike you as really great people that should have authority over your life?

01:32:39.480 They don't strike me that way. And, and we give them more power and we didn't even talk about big

01:32:44.280 tech and all of this, but then we, we outsource all of our truth to big tech and what we can and

01:32:49.440 can't say. And man, you can see why depression levels are at highs and suicide levels and alcoholism

01:32:56.200 and drug use and all these things. What are we doing to 15? The thing about Cuomo is he got so

01:33:02.040 popular here in New York during the coronavirus shutdown because he came out and he seemed to be

01:33:06.540 playing it straight. He seemed to be telling us the good, the bad, the ugly, you know, this is,

01:33:10.820 these are just the facts. And then we see him completely deceiving his audience and attacking

01:33:16.900 reporters the other day when they knew, they knew that New York city schools were about to close again.

01:33:21.520 And, and he was attacking the reporters who asked him about it. Actually, I think we have the exchange

01:33:26.900 stand by. So what are you talking about? How, what are you talking about? You're now going to override.

01:33:34.460 We did it already. That's the law. An orange zone and a red zone. Follow the facts. I'm still

01:33:41.800 confused. Well, then you're confused. I'm confused. And I'll tell you what you mean. Parents are still

01:33:46.500 confused as well. The school's in New York City tomorrow. No, they're not confused. You're confused.

01:33:50.780 No, I think parents are very confused as well. Read the law and you won't be confused.

01:33:55.440 And he was, he was denying that the schools were closing. And within 15 minutes, it was

01:34:02.020 announced by the mayor of New York that they, they are closing again. And these cops, these

01:34:06.900 teachers, these firefighters who have their kids in the public schools, they got no one to care for

01:34:11.420 them. No one knows what they're going to do. And you know, all we get are lies. It's it. I saw a

01:34:18.400 tweet today where somebody tweeted, what, what should the government do during Biden's first term?

01:34:23.520 And somebody responded, leave us the F alone. Yes. These are the reasons. These are the people

01:34:29.500 who are the reasons why. Megan, what problem could you have in your life at this point that

01:34:34.420 you would want the government to intervene? Now, if we were being invaded by an army, I would want

01:34:38.560 the government to do something right. Like I can't deal with that. My local community can't deal with

01:34:42.560 that. But at this point, what, you know, you can say to everybody, this is the fundamental

01:34:47.220 difference, I guess, between lefties and people on the right. People on the right basically want to be

01:34:50.420 left alone and say, Oh, the system's all screwed up. People on the left say the system's all screwed 0.85

01:34:54.840 up. Let's just give it enough, more power. Let's just get the right people in. Let's just give it

01:34:58.340 more money. I think that's just a fundamental flaw in thinking. My, my preference would be

01:35:03.020 you strip away its power so that it can never go too off the rails. And the exchange, of course,

01:35:07.920 there is that it can never do all the things that you want, but that's how you keep,

01:35:11.780 that's how you keep a healthy tension in a society. But, but the simple truth is what,

01:35:16.880 I mean, can you think of anything like what right now in your life, would you go,

01:35:20.800 I need the government to do that for me? What could be better done by the government than by

01:35:26.660 private enterprise? Let's not forget Gavin Newsom, kids in private school, Elizabeth Warren,

01:35:30.880 kids in private school, all of these people, kids in private school, while they also will tell you how,

01:35:36.320 how important it is to get a, you know, a public education.

01:35:40.280 Yeah, you're right. Only if bad guys invade, that's when I'd be looking at them.

01:35:43.640 Now, listen, I know you got to go, but I'm thinking of you and David this holiday season,

01:35:49.800 I'm going to, I'm going to sort of send some good vibes out into the universe that

01:35:54.100 you get good news just in time for Christmas, let's say, or just whenever you want it

01:35:59.400 about possibly expanding your family. I think it's coming in the next couple of days. Thank you.

01:36:02.820 Oh, really? Well, same. We should, well, we should know in the next couple of days. And David just

01:36:08.180 walked into the room as he said that. So maybe that was a sign, but we should know,

01:36:12.040 we should know in the next couple of days and I'll, I'll text you and we can, we can discuss it.

01:36:16.940 And Hey, I just want to say one other thing. I'm, I'm so thrilled that you're back in the game

01:36:21.420 because we needed you. We really did need you. You know, all of us that are doing this,

01:36:26.280 we all kind of float in space. And, you know, we have these little moments where you kind of like

01:36:31.580 dock with another ship and it feels stronger for a little while and then something happens and then

01:36:37.020 you lose touch and everything else. But you have been such a stabilizing force when you were doing

01:36:43.240 it mainstream. And then, and now just when you come back and I'm just thrilled that your show is

01:36:47.840 working and that you're excited again and that we've become friends. It's, it's awesome. And I look

01:36:53.060 for, we, we still haven't met in person, which is just crazy. So I look forward to that.

01:36:56.920 Weird. Thank you for saying that. I, I confess, I didn't even understand what the intellectual

01:37:01.540 dark web was until I started to listen to you. And it's, it's like this group of people on the

01:37:06.760 internet who are saying all the things that no one else will say and saying them freely and openly

01:37:12.060 and discussing them, the free exchange of ideas. The more I learned, the more I wanted to be a part

01:37:16.460 of it. And it is people like you who, you know, for a long time broadcasting out of your garage

01:37:21.180 who created this lane. And I'm, I'm thrilled to be in this lane. Uh, and I do want to meet you and,

01:37:27.780 and your husband, David, because, uh, I feel like we have a connection we have for a

01:37:31.460 long time, but, uh, it needs to be fortified in person and maybe even with more than 10

01:37:35.880 people. We'll see. I mean, that, that would be the perfect cherry on top.

01:37:38.480 More than 10 people indoors because we're freedom extremists, Megan.

01:37:44.840 Thanks again to Dave Rubin. Loved speaking with him. That was so fun. Uh, I want to tell

01:37:48.880 you that today's episode was brought to you in part by Superbeats soft chews. Take two delicious

01:37:53.260 chews a day for the health support and energy you need. Get yours today at superbeats.com slash MK.

01:37:59.200 And don't forget to subscribe to the show right now and download it rate and review. If you feel

01:38:05.500 so kind, because our next show coming out on Wednesday is going to be with JD Vance. You know

01:38:12.700 him, the author of Hillbilly Elegy. Well, they just made a movie about his life. And can I tell you in

01:38:18.940 all the interviews I have done since I became a journalist in 2003 of all of them, the sit down

01:38:25.900 I had with JD Vance while I was at NBC is my number one favorite. It is the piece I am most

01:38:32.280 proud of in my career. So you can go ahead and Google that. I'm sure it's on YouTube. Uh, if you

01:38:37.920 want to take a look at it between now and Wednesday, but I can't wait to reconnect with him because this

01:38:42.660 guy has been through it and he understands middle America in a way very few people do. And he's going

01:38:49.740 to help all of us understand it too. So don't miss that special edition going into the holiday

01:38:54.560 on Thursday. And I'm really looking forward to it. See you soon. Thanks for listening to the

01:38:59.980 Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear. The Megan Kelly show is a Devil May Care media

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The Megyn Kelly Show - November 23, 2020

Dave Rubin on Voting For Trump, Gay Marriage and COVID Hypocrisy ｜ Ep. 28

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