The Megyn Kelly Show - Dem Party Imploding, Michelle Obama's Failing Podcast, and Debating Khalil Deportation, with Glenn Greenwald

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00:00:31.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.740 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Monday.

00:00:47.140 It's the start of a busy week as tensions on the Democratic side of the aisle are rising by the day.

00:00:52.960 By the way, we're back. We were on vacation last week.

00:00:56.200 My kids are still on vacation and I am at the beach, but working.

00:01:01.540 So we will be here all week, both for The M.K. Show and for the AM update.

00:01:05.400 Thanks to all of you for watching our baby Lisa special.

00:01:08.720 We really appreciated it and we're really determined to help find that little girl, if at all possible.

00:01:13.760 Check it out on our YouTube feed if you haven't seen it already.

00:01:15.960 And by the way, happy St. Patrick's Day from Megyn Kelly.

00:01:20.360 Great to wish you a happy St. Patrick's Day.

00:01:23.240 I'm sure we'll be celebrating later.

00:01:24.880 Meanwhile, they're not celebrating over on Team Blue because the tensions on that side of the aisle,

00:01:29.060 as I said, are rising.

00:01:30.640 And quickly, by the day, there's like there's a civil war happening right now within the Democratic Party.

00:01:36.280 And there are calls to oust longtime Senate leader Chuck Schumer.

00:01:40.420 Chuck Schumer? What? He was untouchable.

00:01:43.900 Well, maybe not.

00:01:45.600 New polls show record low support for the Democratic Party.

00:01:50.600 Plus, a former first lady steps into the world of podcasting and totally bombs.

00:01:57.220 We'll get to that with Michelle Obama.

00:01:59.580 Joining me now, my pal Glenn Greenwald.

00:02:02.040 He's host of Rumble's System Update.

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00:03:17.360 Glenn, great to have you.

00:03:18.960 Great to be with you, Megan.

00:03:19.900 Okay, so this is very interesting, what's happened to the Democrat Party.

00:03:24.000 This morning on the New York Times is the daily podcast.

00:03:26.160 They likened it to what happened with Republicans in 2009, 2010, after Barack Obama won in a

00:03:34.320 sweeping victory and won all, you know, the House, the Senate, and the White House.

00:03:38.460 And the Tea Party was born and, you know, healthcare was shoved down our throats.

00:03:42.400 And the Republicans just wanted one thing, which was to fight, fight, find some way to fight

00:03:47.900 these guys, and they were likening that to what we're seeing now with Dems.

00:03:52.780 Here are the numbers, according to the polls we saw over the weekend.

00:03:56.980 First, there's CNN saying that, okay, let's see, the Democratic Party's favorability rating

00:04:05.740 stands at just 29%, a record low dating back to 1992, and a drop of 20 points in just four

00:04:16.460 years since January of 2021, a drop of 20 points and a record low at 29%.

00:04:23.300 We saw similar numbers out of NBC, so it's not a one-off.

00:04:28.540 NBC shows the Democratic Party with just a 27% positive rating, 55% negative, so they're

00:04:36.980 underwater by 28 points, a record low for the Democrat Party in more than 30 years of polling.

00:04:46.220 Why?

00:04:47.360 It's possible that some of that is being generated by this kind of liberal onks, this kind of

00:04:53.660 dissatisfaction with Democratic Party leadership, but this perception that they're, quote-unquote,

00:04:58.400 not fighting hard enough, not fighting Trump hard enough, whatever that might mean.

00:05:02.000 So maybe if you ask liberals now, what do you think of the Democratic Party, they'd be

00:05:05.740 more inclined, many of them would be, to say, we don't approve of that.

00:05:09.000 But it's clearly much broader than that.

00:05:10.680 I think that's just one factor.

00:05:12.520 The problem is, if you ask me what was the worst problem with the Kamala Harris campaign,

00:05:18.140 it'd be very difficult to answer given how many problems that campaign had.

00:05:21.060 But if I were forced to choose the worst, I would say that she never committed to believing

00:05:28.420 in anything, to standing for anything.

00:05:30.460 Americans, by the end of the campaign, would be like, I don't even know who she is, let

00:05:33.940 alone what she really believes in.

00:05:36.080 Like, what are her real convictions?

00:05:37.560 What motivates her?

00:05:38.320 With Trump, you always know, for better or for worse, from people's perception, he doesn't

00:05:42.840 hide what he believes.

00:05:44.660 Quite the opposite.

00:05:45.980 So the contrast was extreme.

00:05:47.960 And I think in the Democratic Party more broadly, basically going back to 2015, 2016, they've

00:05:54.280 defined themselves by being horrified by Donald Trump, by being aghast by Donald Trump, by being

00:06:00.140 fearful of Donald Trump, by not being Donald Trump.

00:06:03.260 But there's no positive vision.

00:06:04.860 There's no affirmative agenda that Americans can look at and say, oh, this is what I like.

00:06:10.820 So even if you see a softening in approval ratings for Trump and you see it a little bit,

00:06:14.820 not very much, but on certain issues at least, it doesn't translate into higher support for

00:06:20.820 the Democratic Party because they don't provide an alternative.

00:06:23.520 It's just, we're going to fight Trump.

00:06:25.140 But based on what?

00:06:26.180 Based on what set of values or policies or even ideology, nobody knows.

00:06:30.660 Right.

00:06:31.280 What are you going to do?

00:06:32.120 And that is actually also reflected in the CNN poll because they asked, name the Democratic

00:06:38.120 leader you feel best reflects the core values of the party.

00:06:41.460 And this is among Democratic-aligned adults.

00:06:44.980 The largest recipient of votes was no one.

00:06:49.820 30 percent said no one.

00:06:52.080 No one best reflects the core values of the Democrat Party.

00:06:55.900 The next in line with just 10 percent was AOC, who's just about tied with Kamala Harris at

00:07:04.020 nine percent.

00:07:05.600 Bernie Sanders at eight percent.

00:07:07.400 These are all bad numbers.

00:07:08.540 These are clearly not the party leaders if you're only getting nine or 10 percent.

00:07:12.920 But interestingly, coming in at four percent is Barack Obama, who is tied with Jasmine Crockett.

00:07:23.080 Yes, Jasmine Crockett, who nobody ever even heard of six months ago, but is out there doing

00:07:29.580 her like dancing videos and trying to be like a new version of AOC.

00:07:33.060 But unbelievably, Obama and Jasmine Crockett are tied for who best reflects the core values

00:07:39.980 of the party, which which tells us what I will.

00:07:42.680 I think if you look at the people you named, obviously, other than Obama, who's there because

00:07:47.640 he was the president and Kamala, who's there because she just got done being the nominee.

00:07:52.480 But nine percent is pathetic or whatever it was, eight percent.

00:07:55.660 The three people that you named AOC, Bernie and Jasmine Crockett for all the intense disagreements

00:08:00.960 I have with them are people who, in contrast to what I just got done saying, do actually

00:08:06.340 believe in things and do actually say the things that they believe in.

00:08:10.660 And I think most of all what they're doing now is creating this kind of perception, this

00:08:14.680 branding, this posture like we are going to fight Trump on everything.

00:08:17.900 And on some level, what the Democratic Party wants, what Democratic Party voters want,

00:08:22.500 I think this poll shows it, is not just fighting with Trump, but somebody who at least believes

00:08:27.440 in things.

00:08:28.020 And that was, you know, Bernie's campaign in 2016 and 2020 stood for a clear, affirmative

00:08:32.720 agenda, which a lot of people disliked and a lot of people like.

00:08:35.340 But you can't deny that he did.

00:08:37.640 And I think that's what this is showing above all else.

00:08:40.380 You've had this like faceless, kind of soulless, very consultant driven, artificial set of

00:08:47.880 Democratic Party leaders who are petrified of saying the wrong word, going off script

00:08:52.060 even a single time.

00:08:53.600 And then you have Donald Trump just riffing every day on everything without the slightest

00:08:58.220 regard for how people are going to react to the things that he's saying.

00:09:02.080 And I think that that is what has made the Democratic Party, which is just like this very

00:09:07.220 limp, neoliberal, vaguely kind of trying to be a center-left party, but never really saying

00:09:15.000 much or believing in anything.

00:09:17.080 I think that's what you're seeing in these polls among Democratic Party voters is at least

00:09:20.460 the people who are out there making a mock, you know, a mockery of themselves like Jasmine

00:09:23.780 Crockett, which is why the media loves her.

00:09:25.680 At least they're saying something.

00:09:27.420 They don't seem super constrained.

00:09:30.100 They're not afraid.

00:09:31.400 Limp is a rough word, but I think you're right.

00:09:34.180 It applies.

00:09:34.640 That is kind of how you how you feel when you look at the Democrats today.

00:09:38.600 OK, so let's get to the point that you made.

00:09:40.240 You're exactly right.

00:09:41.560 Both of these polls, CNN and NBC, seem to try to get at why.

00:09:46.280 Why are the Democrats so unhappy?

00:09:48.000 And it is not because Team Blue refuses to compromise with Trump, who has a mandate to

00:09:55.280 change the country.

00:09:56.240 It is not that at all.

00:09:57.900 The Democrats are mad about any compromise.

00:10:01.120 They want their party leaders to get in there and fight and stop Trump.

00:10:07.000 There's still the party.

00:10:08.580 There is some still some strain within it that is very, very TDS afflicted.

00:10:14.560 This is CNN.

00:10:16.540 Most Democratic aligned adults say the party should focus on trying to stop the GOP agenda.

00:10:21.720 Um, and that's OK.

00:10:24.660 So so the majority want that in just 2017, when Trump began his first term, 74 percent of

00:10:33.920 the Dems thought the Dems should work with Republicans.

00:10:37.120 OK, now it's only 42 percent who want Dems to work with Republicans and just doing the

00:10:42.980 math.

00:10:43.320 It must be somewhere over, you know, 50, 58 percent who say fight, stop the GOP agenda.

00:10:48.860 Um, 52 percent of Democratic aligned adults say the Democratic Party is taking the wrong

00:10:54.860 direction with the Republican Party and then jumping to the NBC poll, similar numbers where

00:11:01.120 they say, um, hold on, here it is.

00:11:04.300 Uh, OK.

00:11:05.920 No more compromising, they say.

00:11:08.400 Uh, almost two thirds of Democrats, 65 percent say they want congressional Democrats to stick

00:11:13.640 to their positions, even if that risks sacrificing, sacrificing bipartisan progress.

00:11:20.140 Just 32 percent want them to make legislative compromises with Trump.

00:11:24.080 It was almost exactly the opposite in April of 2017.

00:11:28.260 59 percent of Dems said they wanted to make compromises with Trump again.

00:11:32.000 Now, 65 percent say no, no compromises, which leads us to Chuck Schumer, whose behavior was

00:11:39.600 somewhat ill-timed when you when you look at these polls, which came out after he announced

00:11:45.240 he would vote for the continuing resolution to make sure that the government stayed open for the

00:11:49.800 next six months.

00:11:51.040 It's really just kicking the can for a bit before they can have the real fight.

00:11:54.260 But in any event, he and a handful, eight Democrats came forward to say, we'll vote through

00:12:00.020 to make sure that the government doesn't shut down.

00:12:03.440 And now there's actual talk of bouncing him out as party leader, Glenn.

00:12:08.120 Yeah.

00:12:08.720 I mean, here's the thing you had referenced earlier, the fact that a lot of Republicans

00:12:12.680 under the Obama, especially the second term of Obama, wanted absolutely no compromise with

00:12:17.740 the Obama administration, wanted nothing but pure resistance to everything that he did.

00:12:22.020 John Boehner, when he was the House Speaker, used to feel boxed in because he wanted to do

00:12:26.940 deals when deals could be done.

00:12:28.400 But a lot of the base were were what was vehemently opposed to any attempt to work with Democrats

00:12:33.980 in Obama.

00:12:34.500 They wanted an opposition party.

00:12:36.720 And on some level, Democrats are now in this same position where they don't want to do deals.

00:12:41.900 They don't want to join hands with the Republicans and reach compromises.

00:12:44.560 They just want an opposition party.

00:12:46.500 I think the big difference is, is that if you go back and look at the Republicans in the

00:12:50.920 first term of Obama, the second term of Obama, they had it an agenda.

00:12:54.840 Everybody understood what Paul Ryan or Mitt Romney or John McCain, what these people stood

00:13:01.920 for, like what their values were, what their agenda was, the reason why they wanted to

00:13:05.680 oppose the Obama administration.

00:13:09.040 I go back to the fact that the Democrats have none of this.

00:13:13.540 They just don't have any kind of affirmative agenda.

00:13:16.640 And this is the thing that's different to the polling, I think, is so interesting between

00:13:19.340 2017 and now, because ever since Trump got elected to that first term, Democrats and liberals

00:13:24.520 have been feeding now on almost a decade of not just Trump has a wrong ideology or Trump

00:13:31.180 has bad policies.

00:13:32.300 Trump is a fascist.

00:13:33.460 Trump is a Hitler figure.

00:13:35.260 Trump's here to end American democracy.

00:13:37.340 Trump is a stooge of the Kremlin.

00:13:39.000 And if you really start feeding on those kinds of ideas and that kind of demonization and come

00:13:44.580 to believe it, I think it makes sense to feel like, oh, we shouldn't be cooperating with

00:13:50.100 Trump.

00:13:50.300 The problem is, is that all of the things that liberals seem to want in these polls,

00:13:54.260 that's all been tried.

00:13:55.560 What did we hear throughout the last three to four months of the 2024 election?

00:13:59.180 Trump is a fascist.

00:14:00.280 Trump admires Hitler.

00:14:01.420 Trump is going to end democracy.

00:14:02.800 Trump is a stooge of Putin.

00:14:04.160 These things have all been all over the place and they don't work.

00:14:07.400 People don't believe that about Donald Trump.

00:14:09.880 And that's why I think Democrats are so lost.

00:14:12.800 This idea that we need to attack Trump even more.

00:14:16.400 They have the media who has been doing that.

00:14:18.040 The Democratic Party has been doing that, and apparently they just want to double down

00:14:21.320 on this strategy that clearly isn't working for them.

00:14:24.960 Yeah, I think that the Democrats don't necessarily, I don't, I can't tell, but I don't think they

00:14:29.660 necessarily want just to hear about orange man bad.

00:14:32.420 You know, they don't like Republican ideals.

00:14:35.420 They don't like, you know, certain things that Trump is doing.

00:14:38.160 They do like the immigration policies.

00:14:39.900 The polls show that.

00:14:41.760 But the economy doesn't poll quite as well.

00:14:44.180 I mean, I'm sure they do want Trump fought on certain key things.

00:14:48.740 You had Elon telling Larry Kudlow that we have to take a look at entitlements.

00:14:52.600 That led to all sorts of meltdowns in many corners, including Republican ones.

00:14:57.600 Anyway, I can see how they might oppose Trump's agenda, real or perceived.

00:15:02.340 But what we hear out of Democrat leaders is so much is just orange man bad.

00:15:06.280 It's just, OK, so there's very little to attach to in that.

00:15:09.600 But here's a montage of the Democrats and pundits melting down over Chuck Schumer.

00:15:15.860 And by the way, in Chuck Schumer's defense, the reason he and some eight other Democrats

00:15:21.440 decided to vote for the continuing resolution is they were worried that if the government

00:15:26.240 shut down and the government workers got divvied up into essential and non-essential workers,

00:15:30.680 which is what happens, the essential ones have to keep working, even though there's a

00:15:33.740 shutdown, that it would be like waving the red flag at the bull with Doge and Elon.

00:15:40.540 Like, here's everybody who's essential and everybody else is not.

00:15:44.760 And, you know, that's just like putting it all on the line.

00:15:47.440 Go ahead and cut the ones who are not.

00:15:49.300 So that was one of their main concerns.

00:15:50.660 But the Democrats are so mad and so determined to fight Trump.

00:15:53.600 They're not accepting those rationales.

00:15:56.720 Here's some of the punditry around Schumer over the past couple of days.

00:15:59.960 There is a deep sense of outrage and betrayal.

00:16:03.680 It is a huge slap in the face.

00:16:06.140 I've never seen this level of volcanic anger at a Democrat ever.

00:16:10.760 Ever.

00:16:11.320 Ever.

00:16:11.740 We want a Mitch McConnell.

00:16:13.900 We want somebody who's going to stand up to this bully.

00:16:16.920 Chuck Schumer has radically misread the room.

00:16:19.540 He is the wrong man at the wrong time.

00:16:21.700 Like, Dems don't just have a messaging problem.

00:16:23.340 They got a leadership problem.

00:16:24.460 The Chuck Schumers of the world, the Hakeem Jeffries, they should all step down.

00:16:28.080 This is a real black mark of stain on Chuck Schumer's leadership.

00:16:31.860 And I'm pissed.

00:16:32.580 Does he fold it like a paper napkin?

00:16:35.240 Anyone can primary him.

00:16:38.400 Okay, and just one more.

00:16:40.100 Hakeem Jeffries, who's, of course, the Democrats' leader in the House, was asked on Friday,

00:16:45.660 is it time to switch him out to find a new Senate leader?

00:16:49.600 And here's how he answered it.

00:16:51.460 Is it time for new leadership in the Senate?

00:16:54.740 Next question.

00:16:55.320 Mr. Jeffries.

00:16:58.080 That's significant that he just said, next question.

00:17:01.300 Now, by the next day, he had softened that and stood behind Schumer.

00:17:05.100 But the fact that his instinct was not to support Chuck Schumer is very telling.

00:17:10.140 I think here's the reality, though, that for me, at least, is underpinning all of this,

00:17:17.060 which is and this is something that actually Donald Trump said often and loudly in the 2016

00:17:22.980 campaign throughout 2015 in the primary and then into 2016 in the election, which is that

00:17:27.880 the Republican Party establishment and the Democratic Party establishment, which is absolutely

00:17:32.780 represented by people like Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, have a great deal in common

00:17:38.280 with one another.

00:17:38.960 They have differences like on social issues with abortion and trans issues and some of

00:17:45.400 these kind of culture war issues.

00:17:46.540 They definitely have differences there that make it seem like they're constantly at each

00:17:50.260 other's throat.

00:17:50.960 But when it comes to economic policy, foreign policy, their differences are really not that

00:17:57.180 great.

00:17:57.560 Obama said that, too, that, you know, the Republicans are trying to depict him as this radical.

00:18:01.760 And in reality, the Republican Democratic Party's fight within the 40 yard line.

00:18:07.120 So when it comes to these demands that Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, the Democrats or whatever,

00:18:13.080 do more to fight Trump and attack Trump, it seems like they just want this kind of this

00:18:20.480 sort of imagery of fighting, this kind of surface fight.

00:18:25.360 But there's nothing for them to really fight on.

00:18:27.740 Now, Trump won in 2016, in my view, because he ran against both the Republican and the

00:18:33.120 Democratic Party establishments.

00:18:34.520 He had to do because his main opponent in the primary was Jeb Bush, the ultimate figure of

00:18:38.840 the Republican establishment.

00:18:40.240 And he still continues to do that.

00:18:42.960 So there definitely are some differences Democrats have with Trump.

00:18:45.920 The problem is that what are Democrats going to pretend to stand for?

00:18:49.780 They can't agree on that amongst themselves.

00:18:51.720 They they they are very much shaped by their big donor base that has a lot of views that

00:18:57.460 have a lot in common with the Republican Party establishment.

00:19:00.260 And I think they're just very confused about who they are.

00:19:02.800 And this that's the problem, Megan.

00:19:03.920 It's like if you don't know who you are or you're afraid to say who you are, you can like

00:19:08.840 wave your fist in the air and fight and say you're going to do this and that to resist.

00:19:13.380 But ultimately, no one really finds it convincing because you're not really fighting for anything.

00:19:18.040 You're just fighting for the sake of fighting.

00:19:20.020 And I don't think I think that's what makes the Democrats kind of pathetic right now in

00:19:24.260 the eyes of most people is that they're just afraid to stand for anything.

00:19:28.980 They're confused about what they stand for, whose interests they serve.

00:19:32.360 They really they're just a mess.

00:19:34.400 And that's the big problem to me.

00:19:37.240 Yeah, it's a turnoff and you don't want to be associated with losers like people who

00:19:41.080 fought hard and fought well, but lost.

00:19:42.840 That's one thing.

00:19:43.420 But people who, as you say, appear like limp, like a limp party that's afraid.

00:19:48.560 And self-flagellating, it's like, I don't that doesn't inspire me to put on the team

00:19:53.020 jersey, even if, you know, these these voters who are answering these polls happen to be

00:19:58.280 Democrats when you look at, you know, their partisan leanings and their ideology.

00:20:02.060 Here is a man who got one percent in that poll asking who the who who represents our party

00:20:10.060 best, like who actually does stand for our values.

00:20:12.440 One percent got this guy.

00:20:14.100 You might know him as the recent vice presidential ticket candidate underneath Kamala Harris,

00:20:22.320 Harris, Jim Walls.

00:20:23.960 I would argue that Democratic officials should hear the primal scream that's coming from America

00:20:28.300 is do something, damn it.

00:20:29.700 This is wrong.

00:20:30.420 OK, well, OK, but like what specifically and why is he getting one percent?

00:20:42.400 I mean, think about this, Megan.

00:20:43.580 This is like these people, Kamala Harris and Tim Walz, ran for president, vice president

00:20:48.960 as the Democratic nominee just three months ago.

00:20:51.400 And three months later, my God, the vice presidential candidate is getting one percent

00:20:56.460 of the vote among Democrats as to who represents the party.

00:21:00.600 And Harris is underneath AOC.

00:21:02.400 She's she's one point under AOC.

00:21:04.220 I haven't looked, but I would be willing to stake a lot on the fact that when somebody

00:21:12.660 becomes the nominee of a major party, even then they lose the election a few months after

00:21:17.600 that, if you ask people who's the face of the party, a lot of people are going to say

00:21:20.400 that person because it's the obvious choice.

00:21:22.580 But I think Democrats do feel that loser vibe like they need to do something else or they can.

00:21:27.380 I think they're embarrassed about themselves and their party and they should be.

00:21:30.540 And like even in this in in that clip, like Tim Walz is like, you know, we have to fight

00:21:36.360 the primal scream, but we have to fight.

00:21:39.600 But how and for what, you know, and I think like they you know, when they originally presented

00:21:46.640 Tim Walz, it was like a gift to the left wing of the party, like to the Bernie AOC wing.

00:21:50.980 But you didn't really see much of that during the campaign because everything that Kamala

00:21:55.960 Harris has always done as vice president.

00:21:58.120 And I think even before senators, what she always except in that one area that she really

00:22:02.300 knows well, which is criminal law, because of her being a prosecutor, every time she

00:22:05.980 speaks, she feels like she's extremely afraid of saying the wrong thing.

00:22:09.400 And they infuse that into Tim Walz.

00:22:11.620 And there's a lot of Democratic Party leaders who have that sort of hesitation when they speak.

00:22:17.720 And even the ones who are now trying to say, like, let's fight, let's fight is an easy

00:22:22.780 thing to say.

00:22:23.320 That's still, again, saying we're not Trump.

00:22:25.080 We have to resist what Trump is doing.

00:22:27.320 But what would you be doing?

00:22:29.520 You know, what do you want to see different?

00:22:31.760 And they still seem just very petrified to say out of fear of offending voters and donors

00:22:37.720 and consultants in the media.

00:22:39.560 And that ultimately is a thing that not political junkies, but just like ordinary citizens who

00:22:44.620 pay some attention to politics, but not constantly.

00:22:46.760 That's the thing they feel more than anything.

00:22:48.540 All right.

00:22:50.700 So two men sensing an opportunity and clearly maneuvering to exploit it.

00:22:56.380 That would be Gavin Newsom of California, who's now launched this podcast where he's

00:23:00.040 having on conservative stalwarts.

00:23:02.480 Well, Bannon says he's not a conservative.

00:23:04.260 He's he's a populist.

00:23:05.280 He's an America first populist.

00:23:07.040 But Charlie Kirk is conservative.

00:23:08.960 Those are two of his first two guests.

00:23:10.840 I have to say I'm really against this.

00:23:12.660 Charlie's going to be on tomorrow.

00:23:13.480 I'll talk to him about it, but I just think what's happening now is he's training for

00:23:20.040 2028 against J.D.

00:23:22.140 Vance and every conservative who goes on that podcast is helping him.

00:23:25.160 They're all helping him train.

00:23:26.520 I don't it's like training Drago instead of Rocky.

00:23:29.860 Like, why are you doing that?

00:23:31.000 You're training the wrong person.

00:23:32.420 This person actually doesn't respect you or your ideals.

00:23:34.400 You're not going to change his mind.

00:23:35.580 You're not going to change the minds of the people who listen to his show.

00:23:37.920 You're just going to help him.

00:23:39.060 So anyway, that's my feeling on it.

00:23:40.900 But in any event, I see what he's doing.

00:23:42.940 He's trying to look like he's, you know, moderating toward the center.

00:23:46.740 He's not quite as far left.

00:23:47.780 He's hearing people out.

00:23:48.660 He's taking more reasoned positions on things like boys and girls sports and so on.

00:23:52.460 OK, that's what he's doing.

00:23:53.900 And then there's Chris Murphy from my adopted home state of Connecticut, who is an absolute

00:23:58.880 nobody about a year ago.

00:24:01.760 But then he apparently fell in love with some hard left media company wannabe executive who's

00:24:11.140 backed by Soros, and she's helping him on his social media.

00:24:15.600 I don't know when their relationship started.

00:24:17.740 I'm just going to say he's still married.

00:24:20.380 He says he separated from his wife in November.

00:24:24.320 No one's filed for divorce.

00:24:26.300 And yet he's reportedly, according to Semaphore, in this relationship with this young hotshot female

00:24:30.700 media person.

00:24:31.880 In any event, his social media presence has certainly shot up, gotten better.

00:24:39.240 And now he's suddenly gone from this milquetoast, oh, gee, golly gee willikers guy, to fucking

00:24:47.180 bad day, which he said the other day, tweeted out after the Chuck Schumer thing.

00:24:53.520 Let me just give you a before and after.

00:24:55.440 This is just November.

00:24:56.580 And here's a post that he made on Election Day.

00:25:02.260 So I have a few superstitions on Election Day.

00:25:04.660 One of them is that I eat lunch at the same Burger King in Torrington every single year.

00:25:09.440 It's worked every election so far, so I'm not stopping.

00:25:12.760 Plus, chicken fries are really, really good.

00:25:16.560 Oh, my God.

00:25:17.860 OK, and now take a look at him.

00:25:22.040 Which one's the real?

00:25:23.100 Come in a bunch of different ways.

00:25:24.200 And if that happens, we need to mobilize not thousands of Americans, not tens of thousands

00:25:30.280 of Americans, but hundreds of thousands of Americans.

00:25:34.200 We will have to be out there in the streets in a way that America has maybe never seen

00:25:40.640 before.

00:25:41.420 And the only way that Americans are going to decide to take that kind of risk is if they

00:25:47.000 see their elected leaders taking risk as well.

00:25:50.100 OK, the name of the woman is Tara McGowan, the CEO of the Left Wing Network of Digital

00:25:57.360 Media Sites, known as Courier Newsroom.

00:25:59.760 She's 39.

00:26:00.920 He's 51.

00:26:02.740 And now his social media presence, numbers and style have all changed dramatically.

00:26:10.040 His ex post from Friday after Schumer caved is, hey, I just got home.

00:26:14.520 Tough fucking day.

00:26:15.980 Going live on Insta at whatever time.

00:26:18.840 So what do you make of it?

00:26:21.200 Oh, God, it's so cringy.

00:26:23.120 I mean, the contrast between these two things is really interesting, right, because Gavin

00:26:27.400 Newsom is actually angering the liberal base, because while you are looking at this from

00:26:32.280 the perspective of like people like Charlie Kirk or or Steve Van, I guess you have Michael

00:26:37.520 Savage.

00:26:38.320 I have someone else coming on shortly in that vein that they're helping Gavin Newsom from

00:26:43.820 the liberal perspective.

00:26:44.980 Gavin Newsom is not inviting them on to fight with them or to be confrontational with them,

00:26:49.500 but kind of placate them, almost be friendly with them in a way that, as you said, is designed

00:26:54.320 to show that he's like a more reasonable guy.

00:26:56.240 And they're infuriated by this.

00:26:58.940 I don't think Gavin Newsom, he may be helping himself in terms of general election prospects,

00:27:02.920 but in terms of the primary where you need like the real hardcore militants.

00:27:07.480 He's alienating a lot of people who just a couple months ago were very open to supporting

00:27:12.140 him.

00:27:12.860 But I guess, you know, his strategy is I have to convince Democrats that not just that I'm

00:27:19.760 the candidate they want, but that I'm the candidate that can win.

00:27:22.620 Whereas, as you say, Chris Murphy has been told like, oh, this the the great the approach

00:27:29.040 is to go online and sound like, you know, a hardcore social media fanatic.

00:27:35.800 And, you know, Megan, you see this so much like I don't know if you saw like when Chuck

00:27:39.860 Schumer was doing his rounds of media stuff.

00:27:42.200 He has this new book out about the crisis of anti-Semitism.

00:27:44.420 But of course, like in the course of doing this book, he's mostly being asked about this

00:27:49.860 this controversy that he's fallen into and he'll do things like I saw this in three interviews

00:27:55.460 at least where he'll be like, and these guys in the White House, he's bastards.

00:28:00.020 And then he's like, oh, sorry, I didn't mean that.

00:28:01.620 Like as though he's just so enraged that he accidentally called the bastards.

00:28:05.480 And but he did it like three times proving that it was scripted.

00:28:09.320 And, you know, a lot of them.

00:28:11.200 Did you hear me say bastards?

00:28:12.360 Yeah, exactly.

00:28:14.580 I called them bastards.

00:28:15.560 That's how you know I'm fighting.

00:28:17.480 And, you know, he had that like thing where he went and did that chant like we will win.

00:28:22.160 We will win with those like elderly Democratic members of Congress around him, one of whom

00:28:26.960 was waving his cane.

00:28:29.200 And, you know, like, you know, like all these things that they keep asking, like, you know,

00:28:34.900 who's going to be our liberal Joe Rogan?

00:28:36.760 Or they see Trump using profanity.

00:28:39.220 And therefore they think that they have to use profanity, too, to relate to the ordinary

00:28:42.800 person.

00:28:44.120 It doesn't work.

00:28:45.580 Like the reason Joe Rogan became so popular is because he's so authentic.

00:28:52.000 He just he you know, and he's open to all different things.

00:28:54.980 He's not a partisan.

00:28:55.820 He's not an ideologue.

00:28:56.620 And the reason people like Trump is because they know that even if they don't agree with

00:29:01.860 him, he's never trying to deceive them or bullshit them by like presenting a mask to

00:29:06.920 them that isn't who they really are.

00:29:09.040 So when you have, you know, politicians like Kamala who suddenly change accents based on

00:29:13.740 who she's speaking to or Democratic members of Congress who never used this kind of language

00:29:18.920 before, who now suddenly want to sound like they're social media influencers, it just it's

00:29:24.140 embarrassing.

00:29:25.000 It's cringy.

00:29:25.880 Yes, some hardcore Democrats will respond, but mostly it's just embarrassing.

00:29:31.540 It's totally cringy.

00:29:32.980 That's exactly right.

00:29:33.820 Like I at the as the audience knows and, you know, I'm not I'm not above swearing myself,

00:29:37.800 but it has to be authentic to you.

00:29:39.760 I come by it very honestly.

00:29:41.920 I come from a long line of foul mouth people.

00:29:44.980 No, my Nana, my mom's mom, she had a she she swore like a sailor and passed it down to

00:29:50.920 me and skipped a generation because my mom doesn't really do it and doesn't love when

00:29:54.060 I do it either.

00:29:54.580 But it has to be authentic to you, you know, or or you just sound kind of sad and pathetic

00:29:59.400 and like a glamour, like a wannabe.

00:30:02.000 There is a question of whether he if Chris Murphy is not going to be the answer to 2028 and

00:30:09.480 the Democrats problem, maybe he'll be the answer to the Schumer problem, which is a

00:30:13.560 much easier substitution, right?

00:30:16.060 Like Schumer's 200 years old and, as you say, represents this wing of the party that's really

00:30:20.960 anachronistic and kind of just young people in general are are over the Mitch McConnell's

00:30:25.780 and the Chuck Schumer's of the world.

00:30:27.560 Chris Murphy at least has the advantage of relative youth at 51.

00:30:31.780 And this came up when he was on Meet the Press yesterday.

00:30:34.480 Here it is.

00:30:34.740 Any of your supporters responded online saying you should replace Leader Schumer.

00:30:42.420 Is that something that you would consider?

00:30:44.220 Would you consider that role?

00:30:45.780 I mean, I don't think anybody's having that conversation right now.

00:30:50.220 What's important is that we meet this moment.

00:30:53.500 And what I'm telling you is that if we continue to observe norms, if we continue to engage in

00:31:00.160 business as usual, this democracy could be gone.

00:31:03.940 I don't think we have a year to save American democracy.

00:31:07.480 I think the way the president is acting, using law enforcement to target dissidents, harassing

00:31:15.400 TV stations and radio stations that criticize him, endorsing political violence, puts our

00:31:20.960 democracy at immediate risk.

00:31:22.800 So that there's another like that's been the message for the past few days.

00:31:28.800 We we may not have a democracy soon.

00:31:31.140 Jasmine Crockett was saying it, too.

00:31:32.720 Like, I'm not sure we're ever going to be able to vote again.

00:31:34.980 Like the Democrats need to do something drastic right now or we're going to lose the country.

00:31:40.720 I mean, I don't agree with that in any way, shape or form.

00:31:43.380 But I I actually think that message is going to resonate with the blue base.

00:31:47.680 What do you think?

00:31:49.440 With the blue base?

00:31:50.520 Yes.

00:31:51.060 I mean, first of all, I just I have to say I find it so funny when you ask a politician

00:31:54.460 who's obviously extremely ambitious.

00:31:57.880 Oh, do you think would you be willing to step up into this and like this this promotion into

00:32:03.960 this elevated political position?

00:32:06.120 They have to pretend like this is not something I've been thinking about.

00:32:08.660 Like Chris Murphy is drooling about being the Senate minority leader.

00:32:11.500 He goes to bed dreaming about it every night.

00:32:13.820 And he has to be like that entire something worth the two of them.

00:32:18.820 And they may be inextricably linked.

00:32:21.400 But in any event, yes.

00:32:23.180 But here's the problem, Megan, is that I can show you in 2016 and 2017 and 2018, all throughout

00:32:30.800 the first Trump campaign, the first Trump presidency, all throughout the campaign again in 2020 and

00:32:36.780 then in 2024, Democrats saying exactly the same things.

00:32:40.520 We're not going to have a democracy if Trump wins in 2020.

00:32:43.260 This may be the last election we ever have.

00:32:45.560 If you ask Chuck Schumer what he thinks about Trump, he would say exactly what Chris Murphy

00:32:50.260 said there, which is like, yeah, I think Trump's an authoritarian.

00:32:52.720 I think he's threatening democracy.

00:32:54.820 Chuck Schumer has been saying that.

00:32:56.560 So this is I think the Democrats problem is this is what the base of the party wants to

00:33:02.920 hear.

00:33:03.440 And if you want to boost your social media numbers, if you want to get more cable hits,

00:33:07.960 you know, if you want to seem like you're more influential in the party than you were

00:33:10.840 previously, these are the things that you have to say.

00:33:13.140 But in terms of actually defeating Trump and not just Trump, but the Trump movement, the

00:33:18.320 Republican Party is led by Trump.

00:33:20.320 This has proven not to work.

00:33:22.300 People don't believe that Trump is a threat to democracy.

00:33:25.420 Now, maybe with some of the things that they're doing that I actually do find controversial,

00:33:29.700 but not huge departures from the tradition of presidents, that message will resonate more

00:33:35.540 with a broader base of people.

00:33:37.480 But I don't think so.

00:33:38.700 I don't think they will ever come to see Donald Trump as some sort of like Mussolini figure

00:33:43.960 or Hitler figure or someone threatening American elections.

00:33:48.000 That's just not how the American people, by and large, perceive Trump.

00:33:51.720 And this is an easy message.

00:33:53.420 Like he's a threat to our democracy.

00:33:54.900 They've been using it for a decade, though, and it's just not working.

00:33:58.060 And I don't understand why they think it's going to work now.

00:34:01.840 No.

00:34:02.620 So you mentioned Joe Rogan and there has been this sort of weird panic on the left and

00:34:06.700 our own Joe Rogan.

00:34:07.440 Of course, the irony being Joe Rogan was their Joe Rogan.

00:34:10.420 He was of the left.

00:34:11.480 He was a Bernie supporter.

00:34:13.540 They drove him out of the party with their insanity, their woke insanity, the lies about

00:34:19.300 COVID, the crackdowns on Joe for his truths about COVID, all sorts of things, you know,

00:34:24.440 that drove a lot of us further to the right, including Rogan.

00:34:28.700 But the answer to their absence now of Joe Rogan in their party does not appear to be Michelle

00:34:35.060 Obama.

00:34:36.920 So far, no.

00:34:39.460 She got no percentages whatsoever as the leader of the party, which is interesting because

00:34:45.320 think of all the buzz around her when we thought Joe had to step down after that June

00:34:50.660 debate.

00:34:51.240 He's got to go.

00:34:52.140 Could it be Kamala?

00:34:53.000 Well, she's not going to win.

00:34:54.340 What about Michelle?

00:34:55.220 Oh, would she do it?

00:34:56.600 She was one of the main names, if not the main name mentioned.

00:35:00.700 But now nobody sees her as a party leader.

00:35:03.500 And apparently Michelle Obama does not see herself as a party leader because when she

00:35:10.040 talks about like her time in the White House, Barack running, it's all negative on this new

00:35:16.380 podcast.

00:35:16.700 I mean, it's exactly what we thought, that it's very clear she hated being first lady.

00:35:21.960 She hated being in Washington.

00:35:23.360 She doesn't like the fact that Barack was president.

00:35:25.040 I mean, she just has nothing but negative things to say.

00:35:28.540 Here's just one small.

00:35:29.900 She doesn't like openly get, you know, caustic, but she makes it pretty clear that this has

00:35:36.120 never been a good idea in her mind.

00:35:38.140 Here's SOT15 with her and her brother, Craig, who's her co-host.

00:35:41.100 I couldn't have gotten through eight years in the White House without my big brother.

00:35:46.160 That's another sort of unusual aspect to our lives.

00:35:50.680 Our relationship was this whole, you know, being married to the president of the United

00:35:55.740 States thing that none of us kind of banked on.

00:35:59.100 I mean, we knew Barack was smart and, you know, ambitious.

00:36:02.560 But, you know, I think, but you, you talked me into supporting his run.

00:36:08.540 I did.

00:36:09.200 And he was smart enough to know that he needed to come to you and sell you on the idea.

00:36:14.800 Barack came to me and he's like, you know, I can't convince your sister to go along with

00:36:21.240 us.

00:36:21.700 And I'm like, well, we'll go along with what?

00:36:24.360 It's like, I think I'm going to run for president.

00:36:26.380 And I was like, what?

00:36:27.360 But I convinced you to not penalize him for being really good at what he does.

00:36:37.440 There's a lot in there, Glenn.

00:36:39.480 That does not sound like somebody who is in favor of his run for president or frankly,

00:36:44.980 in favor of him.

00:36:46.540 Like he was smart and ambitious.

00:36:49.700 Think about if that's how, like, that's why you thought that your spouse was going to run

00:36:55.380 for and possibly become president.

00:36:56.880 I mean, he's smart and he's ambitious.

00:36:59.440 None of what Barack Obama actually ran on.

00:37:02.860 Right.

00:37:03.080 I want to change the world.

00:37:04.740 I want to heal the country, hope and change what like she wasn't buying it.

00:37:09.140 And it doesn't sound like she buys it to this day.

00:37:12.220 Yeah.

00:37:12.640 You know, I have to say there's a part of that with which I can empathize, because if you run

00:37:21.120 for president, your entire family is subjected to immense amount of public scrutiny, every

00:37:27.440 aspect of your life is picked apart and disclosed.

00:37:30.360 And the role of first lady is not necessarily the freest role.

00:37:34.880 There's expectations of what you're supposed to do and can't do the decorum that limit to

00:37:40.320 what you can do.

00:37:41.640 So I'm not necessarily going to say that.

00:37:45.500 I think it's outrageous that that wasn't something that she wanted for her life or expected for

00:37:50.820 her life.

00:37:51.300 But if that's really how she feels, and there's been reports for a long time that that is how

00:37:55.320 she feels, it has to produce a lot of resentment.

00:37:59.220 I mean, he ended up doing what she insists she didn't want him to do.

00:38:03.500 And she did end up being first lady for eight years.

00:38:06.600 And if that really is the kind of thing that she disliked doing, you have to kind of think

00:38:11.920 that there's something in her that's probably pretty angry about that.

00:38:15.560 You know, I also should say that she got immense benefits from having had that role.

00:38:21.640 She seemed at times to enjoy it.

00:38:23.460 I mean, she was kind of very regal and one might say queen like in her behavior.

00:38:28.240 But since then, too, both of them got extremely rich.

00:38:33.040 They spend most of their time on, you know, Richard Branson's yacht or in Martha's Vineyard

00:38:38.940 at their sprawling estate or in their, you know, multimillion dollar D.C. townhouse.

00:38:43.720 So this kind of like I wasn't sure I didn't want this seems unconvincing to me as well in

00:38:50.400 a lot of ways.

00:38:51.640 I know.

00:38:52.040 And she's also out on David Geffen's yacht with Oprah.

00:38:55.060 And then, yeah, her memoir was named Becoming.

00:38:59.120 Look how look at me becoming with her big face on the front.

00:39:02.740 Like, OK, you know, she's a little drunk on her own wine, but not on Barack's, which is

00:39:08.040 just interesting to me at this point after having been first lady twice.

00:39:12.440 Thanks to him.

00:39:13.240 Let's face it.

00:39:13.960 Michelle Obama was not some star in her own right.

00:39:16.400 She was a lawyer.

00:39:17.160 I think it's Sidley in Austin in Chicago, which is fine.

00:39:20.740 It's fine.

00:39:21.500 It's no great shakes.

00:39:22.780 I've been in Chicago.

00:39:23.760 I've practiced law there for many years.

00:39:26.320 So it's fine.

00:39:27.820 It's fine.

00:39:28.860 So she took her Harvard law degree and like got a job with a corporate law firm.

00:39:32.980 Fine.

00:39:33.560 Would literally nobody would have known her name if that's how she had chosen to spend

00:39:37.220 her life.

00:39:37.640 We know who she is because of him, because he became president.

00:39:41.400 He was a character and had a lot of there were a lot of reasons behind his election.

00:39:45.380 But she still, to me, sounds bitter.

00:39:48.400 And even knowing that divorce rumors and, you know, she's not showing up for him, whether

00:39:54.320 it's at the Jimmy Carter funeral or the Trump inauguration basketball game he just went and

00:39:59.340 went to in L.A. when visiting their daughters and then dinner with the daughters was not there.

00:40:04.520 Here she is talking about it.

00:40:06.080 I would if it were me, I would say something nice about him.

00:40:08.660 I would say, like, he's just so charming.

00:40:11.520 It was it was meant to be he I knew he could heal the earth in the way he did.

00:40:16.040 There was there was only one who could do it.

00:40:18.520 It was my husband, Barack Obama, whatever.

00:40:20.460 Then she gets on to talking a little bit about him personally.

00:40:22.920 And this is how that sounded.

00:40:24.620 Plot 18.

00:40:25.900 When a girlfriend comes to visit, it's usually like you've got to stay for two days because

00:40:32.520 it's going to take us so much time to check up.

00:40:38.080 Now, Barack has come in, he's come out and he's like, y'all still talking?

00:40:41.220 He'll sit down for five minutes, be like, how are the boys?

00:40:43.880 And the flip side of my husband, right, because he golfs and golfing takes as long as the first

00:40:49.280 session of our, you know, it takes five hours to golf.

00:40:52.260 He'll golf with his buddies, come back and be like, how's X?

00:40:56.080 He's good.

00:40:56.920 It's like, what y'all talk about?

00:40:58.940 Nothing.

00:41:00.140 OK, so can I just say she stole that from a comedian who's all over Instagram that that

00:41:05.060 little bit is all over Instagram.

00:41:07.300 And forgive me, I can't remember the guy's name, but he does his whole bit about how he

00:41:10.620 goes.

00:41:11.200 He goes golfing with a guy whose wife just died and he comes home and the wife's like,

00:41:16.460 how's he doing?

00:41:17.620 Fine.

00:41:18.820 Well, how would he?

00:41:19.560 Well, he knows nothing, right?

00:41:20.940 It's like a thing.

00:41:22.100 So I don't even know if that's real.

00:41:23.680 But my point is simply that to me, none of the clips, because we have 10 of them, I'm

00:41:28.640 not going to go through all of them, sound to me like a person who looks at the husband

00:41:32.840 with any sort of stars in the eyes still.

00:41:35.020 And it is possible.

00:41:36.240 It is possible.

00:41:37.020 Decades into marriage.

00:41:37.820 I can attest to that to still have stars in your eyes for your loved one.

00:41:41.680 Yeah.

00:41:41.900 I mean, me too.

00:41:43.240 You know, I like I first of all, like I do often want to be a little bit humble about

00:41:50.080 our ability to judge a relationship from afar.

00:41:52.240 I mean, there were certainly all kinds of speculation that the Clintons were going to

00:41:55.780 divorce the minute they got their chance.

00:41:57.640 And here they are, you know, in the mid 70s and they're still married.

00:42:01.180 And yeah, I mean, exactly.

00:42:03.440 Oh, there was all kinds of, you know, speculation about Melania hating Trump and wouldn't even,

00:42:08.120 you know.

00:42:08.780 And the reality is, like, even if you do love your spouse, there are times you're going

00:42:12.280 to fight with them and they're you're new.

00:42:13.700 The only reasons that you get those negative emotions is because you love them and care

00:42:17.420 enough.

00:42:17.760 What I find weird, Megan, is I can't imagine going on a podcast publicly and talking about

00:42:26.660 what obviously I do think those presentments are real that she's sharing, like these kind

00:42:31.040 of like complaints about your husband, not like, you know, you could do it in a light

00:42:35.460 way, in a humorous way, like the differences between a husband and wife or whatever.

00:42:40.040 But she seems like that is pretty, I don't know, pretty intimate and pretty deep about

00:42:46.280 what she seems to find unsatisfying about her her marriage to Barack Obama in a way that

00:42:52.820 I don't know, it just makes me uncomfortable.

00:42:54.340 Like that's the sort of thing that you work on with a marriage counselor or in therapy or

00:42:58.960 something.

00:42:59.880 Why is she saying so much, as you say, like that's very negative?

00:43:04.160 The only reason we know her is because of her husband.

00:43:08.360 And yeah, you're right.

00:43:09.300 You know, I went work for a major law firm when I graduated law school on Wall Street.

00:43:14.580 And, you know, I left in two years because it was so soul crushing.

00:43:18.400 And all of this that she's complaining about is what lifted her into this figure that she

00:43:24.780 benefited from in so many ways.

00:43:26.320 Like she writes books and they go to the New York Times bestseller list because she was

00:43:29.260 married to Barack Obama.

00:43:30.820 I don't know.

00:43:31.540 I find that strange.

00:43:32.620 Like you have to have a lot of negative resentment inside of you toward your husband if you start

00:43:37.480 a podcast and you immediately start kind of complaining about what happened inside your

00:43:41.480 marriage and blame him for it.

00:43:44.020 Right, right.

00:43:45.240 Well, that's to me what she embodies.

00:43:48.060 She's constantly negative and full of grievance, notwithstanding the enormous riches that this

00:43:55.280 country has rained down on her.

00:43:56.700 This country has done nothing to her other than treat her, as you point out, like royalty.

00:44:01.300 Even though she said this is the first time in my adult life, I'm actually proud of my

00:44:04.700 country when he got either nominated or elected, whichever doesn't make a difference.

00:44:09.980 First time ever, really, this country where you got you went to Princeton, you went to Harvard

00:44:13.720 law school, you wound up a successful lawyer, you never found a way to be proud of your country

00:44:19.340 before that.

00:44:19.860 Okay.

00:44:20.700 And ever since has been bitching about her life on the yachts and in the multimillion

00:44:26.880 dollar home in Martha's Vineyard and the homes in Hawaii and Chicago and D.C. and the still

00:44:33.120 controlling the levers of power and going up as the star speaker at the DNC.

00:44:37.140 She's still bitter.

00:44:38.440 Check back in.

00:44:39.260 Still bitter.

00:44:40.180 Okay, we're still not over it.

00:44:41.400 But there's no amount of money or political power or success or number of memoirs called

00:44:46.020 becoming, maybe we should just say it, beautiful, stunning, that'll be the next, the follow-up,

00:44:51.640 that's going to make this woman less bitter.

00:44:54.800 I think it's who she is.

00:44:56.180 And honestly, like this podcast, now it's getting, I don't know, the second episode had 14,000

00:45:01.200 views with, where she had Issa Rae on there, 14,000 views a couple of days into it.

00:45:05.960 That, I realize she's just getting started, but that's, that's embarrassing for the former

00:45:09.500 first lady, for the woman who was almost president being talked about as to step into the Joe

00:45:13.540 Biden shoes.

00:45:15.200 And so something's happening.

00:45:16.660 I think with the Barack Obama at 4%, Michelle Obama not even on the list, and this podcast

00:45:21.420 struggling to put real numbers on the board, I think the Democrat Party is over the Obamas.

00:45:26.300 Yeah, that, honestly, that, that really struck me too.

00:45:30.680 I mean, I'm, you know, over the last, I think like six years now, it's kind of almost been

00:45:35.800 like a conservative paranoia that the Democratic Party was maneuvering constantly to get rid

00:45:42.380 of whoever was going to be their nominee and replace him with Michelle Obama.

00:45:45.540 That was in 2020, what we heard in 2024, what we heard, because a lot of polls showed that

00:45:49.820 she had this kind of popularity.

00:45:51.120 But I think it was very surface level, like it's easy to be popular if you've never run

00:45:55.280 for office before, if you haven't really staked out a lot of positions and haven't had to.

00:46:00.200 We saw that with Kamala Harris, the way, you know, at first she seemed like she was this

00:46:03.820 cultural phenomenon, and then she had to say what she believed in and couldn't, and it

00:46:07.500 all kind of collapsed.

00:46:08.940 But I, you know, I see it the other way.

00:46:10.900 It's like, I could see huge numbers of people turning into Michelle Obama's podcast at the start

00:46:16.220 just because, oh, it's something new.

00:46:17.680 And we're, we find this person interesting and then tailing off and she becomes less

00:46:21.400 interesting.

00:46:21.800 The fact that it's starting with these pathetic numbers, you know, I think it does illustrate

00:46:29.060 what you're saying.

00:46:29.600 I saw a clip where she and her brother were debating whether or not a hot dog is a sandwich

00:46:34.480 and trying to, you know, it's like, and again, this is what I mean.

00:46:37.640 It's like Michelle Obama lives the ultimate jet setting life.

00:46:41.240 She hangs around billionaires all the time.

00:46:42.900 She's at the most, you know, like ostentatious gala.

00:46:47.480 She's wearing, you know, 50,000 and a hundred thousand dollar gowns everywhere.

00:46:51.540 And so then I'm trying to try and be relatable by talking to your brother about such a boring,

00:46:56.560 you know, is that a hot dog a sandwich?

00:46:58.340 Wow.

00:46:58.500 You think it isn't?

00:46:59.380 What?

00:47:00.040 This is, I just, no one's going to listen to this.

00:47:03.480 Why would they?

00:47:04.320 Exactly.

00:47:07.200 I'll give you one more soundbite of Michelle with brother Craig and why they wanted to

00:47:12.320 do this podcast, Sop 14.

00:47:14.360 You know, some people react like, you're doing a podcast with your brother.

00:47:18.080 Why would you do that?

00:47:19.160 I know, really.

00:47:20.800 But our dynamic is so, in my view, unique.

00:47:25.720 I think there are plenty of siblings who have great relationships.

00:47:29.480 But, you know, I think when we think back to where that came from, we think about, I think

00:47:36.220 about just the physical closeness that we had.

00:47:39.260 I mean, we were, we weren't wealthy and dad was working class.

00:47:44.500 We lived in the same apartment our whole lives and had to grow into that.

00:47:48.220 And as a result, you and me, we were, we were physically close growing up.

00:47:53.300 But because they lived in a small apartment, you see, now this is why brother Craig is the

00:48:00.320 co-host of this podcast, which let's face it, no one cares about brother Craig.

00:48:04.120 We don't know brother Craig.

00:48:05.180 If she were doing this with Barack, she might actually get some numbers on the board or with

00:48:09.220 one of the daughters.

00:48:10.320 You know, I think people are mildly interested in the daughters, but brother Craig, I'm sorry.

00:48:14.400 We don't know him.

00:48:15.360 No, don't care that you were physically close, whatever that means under a roof growing up.

00:48:20.580 Um, I, I just feel like, look, maybe this is the new Joe Rogan thing.

00:48:25.640 Maybe she too, like Chris Murphy dropping a fucking tough day.

00:48:29.640 And this is Michelle Obama trying to be like her authentic self to be the new Rogan Glenn.

00:48:34.960 But to me, the whole thing is just evidence of, you know, Democrats, uh, uh, untethered,

00:48:41.120 right?

00:48:41.420 Like not understanding the way forward and just kind of throw the board.

00:48:46.240 I'll give you the last word before we go to break.

00:48:48.440 Yeah.

00:48:48.840 There's nothing charismatic about Craig, brother Craig.

00:48:51.460 Although I will say like, that is why I kind of thought she was being authentic in these

00:48:55.600 complaints and grievances about Barack Obama.

00:48:57.480 Cause she does seem close to her brother.

00:48:59.320 They, she does seem to be talking to him in this way that maybe is more intimate.

00:49:02.540 She'd be willing to say things to him that she wouldn't be willing to say to a generalized

00:49:06.340 interviewer.

00:49:07.420 So I don't know, maybe that's what they thought was going to be the appeal of the podcast,

00:49:12.740 but it just seems very narcissistic.

00:49:14.320 Like just these two siblings talking about themselves and their relationship.

00:49:18.640 I don't know.

00:49:19.620 Right.

00:49:20.200 Talk about something that matters to the rest of us.

00:49:22.840 Like talk about the news, talk about policy, talk about something that matters to other

00:49:26.880 people.

00:49:27.320 By the way, it's very interesting without her speechwriters.

00:49:29.960 She's a shadow of the woman we saw on stage at the DNC and elsewhere where she gives these

00:49:35.080 rousing speeches.

00:49:35.960 She knows how to deliver it.

00:49:36.980 She pauses it right the most, just the right moment when it's just her.

00:49:40.420 It's very flat.

00:49:41.520 Okay.

00:49:41.960 Glenn stands by.

00:49:43.140 He stays with us.

00:49:43.920 We'll get into Mahmoud Khalil on which Glenn and I disagree.

00:49:47.260 So that ought to be interesting.

00:49:48.280 And much, much more.

00:49:49.880 The New York Times actually speaking the truth now on COVID without acknowledging all of their

00:49:57.900 falsehoods on the matter for years.

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00:51:42.580 So a lot going on.

00:51:44.420 We just sort of covered the Dems on Team Red and what Donald Trump is doing.

00:51:48.740 The most recent legal controversy is not Mahmoud Khalil, which we'll get to, but these deportations

00:51:55.820 of alleged gang members from Venezuela.

00:51:59.400 So Trump and Tom Homan and Kristi Noem got some 250 or so alleged gang leaders onto a plane

00:52:11.160 to be deported to El Salvador because the president of El Salvador has agreed to take them.

00:52:17.660 We were paying him some $6 million, and he's agreed to take these folks, which most, I think,

00:52:21.960 Americans would say, cool, great, too.

00:52:24.160 Um, but not, not these particular people because they filed the legal challenge and said, you

00:52:31.020 can't deport us.

00:52:32.060 Um, we are challenging your deploying the quote alien enemies act against us.

00:52:39.900 So what happened was Trump signed a proclamation to deploy this thing.

00:52:44.000 It's from 1798.

00:52:45.700 Uh, it's been deployed for the first time since World War II to remove these alleged gang

00:52:50.980 members.

00:52:51.800 It's only been used three times before to bar citizens of hostile enemy governments from

00:52:55.980 the United States.

00:52:56.640 And only during a declared war, Trump alleged that this gang is conducting irregular warfare

00:53:02.720 against the U.S.

00:53:04.640 Um, he's declared them a terrorist organization, them and the court and the cartels.

00:53:08.300 And he's also claimed that they've conducted an invasion against the United States and therefore

00:53:13.780 says he can deport them without really doing anything.

00:53:16.620 You can just stick them on planes and send them out of the United States.

00:53:18.620 So that is what has happened.

00:53:20.780 Then they went into court, the ACLU and this group representing them, democracy forward filed

00:53:26.520 a lawsuit on behalf of, uh, these alleged gang members at 2 a.m.

00:53:30.760 on Saturday and saying, uh, you can't do this.

00:53:34.100 You don't have the authority.

00:53:35.320 And a judge, this judge, James Bosberg, chief judge in the district of Columbia appointed by

00:53:42.180 Barack Obama, sided with the plaintiffs saying, you cannot do this.

00:53:49.240 And as he heard that there were three flights departing, like at that moment or within moments

00:53:54.560 to take these immigrants to, um, El Salvador, he said, you, you have to stop it.

00:54:00.980 You have to immediately halt the removals and return the flights to the United States.

00:54:05.920 Any flights that are in the air, my head is going to explode.

00:54:08.900 This is so beyond the pale that he does not have this authority.

00:54:13.840 This is absolutely outrageous in my view.

00:54:16.460 And the Trump administration said, uh, I got a whole lot of, uh, for you, which is I'm giving

00:54:21.240 you the Italian sign under the chin for no, to put it politely, um, the flights have already

00:54:27.040 left U S airspace.

00:54:29.120 They're an international airspace, though.

00:54:31.160 There's a dispute about in particular, whether the third flight had in fact already left U S

00:54:36.380 airspace, the first two look like they actually had.

00:54:39.000 In any event, then the president of El Salvador posted a picture of these now prisoners coming

00:54:44.140 into his jail saying, oopsie, too late to this judge.

00:54:50.400 And, um, as I review this alien enemies act, Glenn, there's been, it's old, but there's Supreme

00:54:55.780 court precedent on it saying there is no right for judicial review, um, for good reason, because

00:55:01.700 they do not wish the president's powers in this particular department, when it comes

00:55:06.600 to wartime powers to be reviewable by a court.

00:55:11.200 And the high court said like pretty explicitly, well, we know that that will lead to, you know,

00:55:17.380 some, some, you know, some bad decisions or some bad results.

00:55:22.520 We don't care.

00:55:23.840 They wrote as follows.

00:55:25.180 Uh, the alien enemy act precludes judicial review of removal orders.

00:55:29.720 This is years after world war two, it ended.

00:55:31.920 They wrote, um, in a case, such great war powers may be abused, no doubt, but that is a bad

00:55:37.100 reason for having judges supervise their exercise, whatever the legal formulas within which such

00:55:41.800 supervision would nominally be confined.

00:55:45.520 Accordingly, we hold that full responsibility for the just exercise of this great power may

00:55:49.300 validly be left where the Congress has constitutionally placed it on the president of the United States.

00:55:56.240 Not only did this guy review what Trump did, he's calling back flights of alleged gang members

00:56:03.380 to the United States.

00:56:05.380 To me, it's extraordinary.

00:56:06.560 What are your thoughts?

00:56:07.560 Okay.

00:56:07.940 So there's some things I agree with in, in what you said and some things I don't.

00:56:11.680 So you repeatedly said, and I think it's totally appropriate that these are alleged gang members.

00:56:17.160 One of the reasons I stopped practicing law and started writing about politics and became

00:56:23.180 a journalist in 2005, 2004, 2005 was because there were a lot of what I regarded as excesses,

00:56:32.340 attacks on civil liberties in the name of the war on terror.

00:56:35.120 One of the leading ones of which was that they were putting people in Guantanamo.

00:56:38.460 None of those detainees at Guantanamo ever had any, even one time right to go into court

00:56:45.760 and contest the allegations against them that they were part of terrorist organizations,

00:56:49.560 that they had participated in Al Qaeda or any attacks on anyone.

00:56:53.500 And as it turns out, a lot of them, even the US government admits, were actually innocent.

00:56:58.100 That's why we ended up letting them go in so many cases, because they actually were not

00:57:03.280 terrorists.

00:57:03.660 They were not part of members of terrorist organizations, and yet they were snatched away

00:57:08.480 from their countries, brought to the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, put in very repressive

00:57:12.060 conditions, treated quite brutally.

00:57:15.400 And I understand that in wartime, some of those things are going to happen.

00:57:21.300 You are going to bomb someplace where a lot of the enemy combatants are, and you're going

00:57:26.120 to end up killing a lot of civilians.

00:57:27.940 And of course, you're going to end up imprisoning some people unjustly.

00:57:30.940 But I think we have to be very careful for that reason about when we really declare something

00:57:36.220 as a war and when we don't precisely because the powers of the government escalate dramatically.

00:57:42.400 Are we really at war with these gangs or are these gangs more like horrific and violent

00:57:49.780 criminals?

00:57:51.000 And I think one of the things we have to realize is that human institutions, by definition, are

00:57:55.720 going to make mistakes and are going to err.

00:57:57.640 And these are not people just being deported, which would be fine if they were sent back

00:58:01.460 to their countries of origin.

00:58:02.860 They're being put into a prison that is probably five times worse than Guantanamo in El Salvador.

00:58:09.440 And if some of them are not actually gang members and there's no opportunity for them to contest

00:58:14.620 the charges against them, you have to say that is an unjust outcome.

00:58:18.660 And the question is, if it's not a judge who who decides when a president is acting

00:58:24.600 unconstitutionally, exceeding his powers under the Constitution, who is it who judges that?

00:58:30.160 Congress.

00:58:30.820 Congress would have to impeach him.

00:58:33.040 That's that's the way it works.

00:58:34.100 If the judge doesn't have the purview to step in, as the Supreme Court has made it clear

00:58:37.700 it, they do not.

00:58:39.240 They do not.

00:58:40.060 Not in this department.

00:58:41.180 Then the remedy is impeachment against the president.

00:58:43.300 That's the way the separations of powers work.

00:58:45.440 Except there were a lot of times in every Democratic presidency, including Joe Biden's, when

00:58:51.340 conservatives went into a district court to argue that Joe Biden was exceeding his powers

00:58:56.760 under the Constitution, like when they were coercing big tech companies to censor American

00:59:01.060 citizens.

00:59:01.620 Well, that's different.

00:59:02.420 But that's different.

00:59:03.680 That's different because this is why, as I understand it, as I understand it, the reason

00:59:08.440 that this was given, you know, the sort of no judicial review blessing is because it speaks

00:59:14.660 to foreign policy during a time of war.

00:59:17.500 So that's when the president's foreign power, foreign policy powers are at their peak and

00:59:22.160 not reviewable.

00:59:23.240 You can't like a judge cannot review President Trump saying, I'm going to bomb the Houthis

00:59:28.140 or we're at war with Iran or whomever.

00:59:31.120 That's not reviewable by Article three judges.

00:59:34.680 And that like there are limits to the separations of powers and where a president can be checked.

00:59:38.520 And when it comes to foreign policy, he's at the apex of his independent power.

00:59:42.520 Right.

00:59:44.180 You're absolutely right.

00:59:45.020 He's at the apex.

00:59:45.740 The question is, is he without constraints?

00:59:48.100 I mean, in 2008, the Supreme Court in the Bumadini case actually did rule that the detainees

00:59:53.860 at Guantanamo had a one time right of habeas corpus to go into a federal court and argue

00:59:58.880 that their detention was unjust, even though we basically were treating that as a war, the

01:00:03.720 war on terror.

01:00:04.400 I guess what I'm saying is if all a president has to do is treat any kind of criminality

01:00:09.820 or any kind of social problem and just declares it to be a war, like an actual invasion or

01:00:14.940 a war, I don't think this is the sort of thing that most Americans think of when we think of

01:00:19.980 wars being at war or the kind of precedent that has traditionally recognized this power.

01:00:25.680 I agree with you on the term war, but he's also declared it an invasion.

01:00:30.860 And that's really what's going on here.

01:00:32.260 I mean, he declared this an invasion, given the fact that we had between 10 and 20 million

01:00:35.980 illegals come in under Joe Biden.

01:00:38.740 And that's I mean, that's covered in the Alien Enemies Act invasions.

01:00:44.480 And he's using that declaration to say, you're out and I'm not going to cross T's and dot

01:00:49.560 I's.

01:00:50.320 I'm putting you on a plane.

01:00:51.580 And it's not like they don't know anything about these guys today.

01:00:53.580 They put out the numbers.

01:00:55.640 261 were sent to El Salvador.

01:00:57.000 El Salvador, 137 were deported under this act.

01:01:02.780 They know who these guys are.

01:01:04.800 They I like the government is saying these are gang members.

01:01:08.200 I say alleged because I have no idea.

01:01:09.880 But the government is saying we've done our homework.

01:01:12.780 Tom Homan is saying and they're one, definitely illegals.

01:01:16.160 And two, members of criminal gangs that we've declared terrorist organizations.

01:01:22.100 So there's a few things.

01:01:23.040 They're alleged terrorists.

01:01:24.580 They're there's a they're allegedly part of this war and they're allegedly part of this

01:01:28.360 invasion.

01:01:28.940 I just think there's no question that Trump is going to be upheld here.

01:01:32.660 He has the power to do this.

01:01:34.340 And I actually think this judge could be in serious trouble.

01:01:37.080 I actually think this judge may get admonished by the D.C.

01:01:40.160 Circuit Court of Appeals.

01:01:40.940 And if not by them, then by the U.S.

01:01:42.700 Supreme Court.

01:01:44.380 I don't necessarily disagree with your prediction about what the court's going to do.

01:01:48.360 The Supreme Court is going to do.

01:01:49.440 This is a Supreme Court that has given great deference.

01:01:52.100 To presidential power, especially when it comes to foreign policy and war, not just

01:01:55.580 now, but as you say, historically, the one thing I want to quibble with, though, is that

01:02:00.240 I remember being told that we don't need to worry about Guantanamo because it was only

01:02:04.340 the worst of the worst that were being put there.

01:02:06.220 They were all terrorists.

01:02:07.220 The government knew they were terrorists.

01:02:08.760 And it turned out a lot of the people, not just a few, but a lot of the people who were

01:02:12.940 put there ended up being falsely accused, which is always going to happen.

01:02:16.920 But now maybe we say, look, we don't care between, you know, allowing people to be in

01:02:22.820 our country and just punishing them unjustly based on false accusations.

01:02:27.260 We prefer the latter.

01:02:29.120 But I do think, you know, because deportations usually, which nobody objects to, that's what

01:02:33.420 Trump ran on, means taking these people and sending them back to their country of origin,

01:02:36.980 but they're not put into prison.

01:02:38.140 Here, they're being sent to, on purpose, one of the most repressive prison systems in the

01:02:43.200 world, which is the drug dealing and terrorism prison in El Salvador.

01:02:46.680 And if they're not really gang members, if they're just in the country illegally, is that

01:02:51.740 a just outcome?

01:02:52.500 And is that an outcome that even if it's unjust, we're willing to live with for the ability

01:02:57.280 to solve the broader problem?

01:02:58.800 I'm not that convinced.

01:03:00.180 I don't like people being unjustly accused or punished.

01:03:05.380 Get out.

01:03:06.440 That's my feeling.

01:03:07.360 As you know, get out, but not necessarily to an El Salvadorian prison.

01:03:12.160 That's the difference.

01:03:13.200 Get out to anybody who will take you.

01:03:14.760 If you can go to Canada, go to Canada.

01:03:16.460 So just stay out of the United States.

01:03:17.660 That's all I care about.

01:03:18.580 Like, don't come here illegally or you could wind up on a midnight flight to El Salvador.

01:03:23.920 It's not going to end well for you.

01:03:25.720 And if Tom Homan has reason to believe you're part of Trenda Aragua, so much the worse for

01:03:30.920 you.

01:03:31.360 Like, don't do anything that's going to make Tom Homan think that because it got so out of control

01:03:36.440 under Joe Biden that we're now at this point, invasion, extraordinary powers, flight, you're

01:03:41.660 gone.

01:03:42.060 And federal judges are losing their minds.

01:03:44.220 Okay.

01:03:44.600 Which brings us to Mahmoud Khalil.

01:03:47.660 So the audience, I think, knows my stance on this because I did a weekend podcast.

01:03:52.480 If not, the short stance is I believe the government has every right to deport him, notwithstanding

01:03:58.700 the fact that he's a green card holder and married to an American, which is really kind

01:04:02.760 of an irrelevance legally.

01:04:04.200 Um, but the green card is not an irrelevance and, uh, he's, he's deportable under several

01:04:10.440 different statutes.

01:04:11.580 He's done a number of things that can get him deported.

01:04:14.620 I think some of his speech is grounds enough, but he's actually behaved in a way that could

01:04:19.600 get him deported.

01:04:20.480 You can get deported for a lot of things, even when you're a green card holder, it's a privilege.

01:04:23.820 It's not a right.

01:04:25.080 And Trump had every right to say you're out of here.

01:04:28.120 And I know you disagree.

01:04:29.440 Uh, and you think it's a first amendment case, which I don't think.

01:04:32.880 So explain why you think that and why you defend him in general.

01:04:37.980 Sure.

01:04:38.520 I mean, first of all, you know, I, I've been defending free speech is probably my most important

01:04:42.520 value, not just as a journalist, but as a lawyer for 30 years.

01:04:45.900 I remember being inspired by what the ACLU did in Skokie, Illinois, where they defended

01:04:49.960 the right of American Nazi party members to march through Skokie, which was a town of

01:04:54.320 Holocaust survivors wearing Nazi uniforms, even though the lawyers who did that were Jewish

01:04:59.100 lawyers and they had Jewish donors.

01:05:00.680 It was a very overwhelmingly Jewish group.

01:05:02.460 And they still defended the right of free speech of the people who are Nazis, who only

01:05:06.660 30 years before had tried to exterminate Jews from the earth, because I think the principle

01:05:10.560 is so important.

01:05:11.500 And I've seen many times people say they believe in the principle when it comes to their

01:05:14.540 own allies, and then suddenly start finding ways to justify censorship by saying it's

01:05:19.600 incitement or it's something else when it comes to the views they most disagree with.

01:05:22.880 And I think that's what is important to recognize here is the Trump campaign, the Trump

01:05:27.120 administration made very clear that they intend to go after and punish in a lot of ways people

01:05:32.480 who are protesting the Israeli war in Gaza or Israel itself because the Trump administration

01:05:37.400 are strong supporters of Israel.

01:05:39.180 So we have to recognize the people they're going after have views that the Trump administration

01:05:43.720 vehemently disagrees with.

01:05:45.460 In the case of Mahmoud Khalil specifically, I've heard a lot of accusations about him, that

01:05:51.140 he is a supporter of Hamas, that he engaged in intimidation of violence.

01:05:54.480 There's no evidence of that.

01:05:56.780 It is true that some of the protesters at Colombia engaged in bad acts, but you can't

01:06:02.600 impute those to Mahmoud Khalil.

01:06:05.200 And there was, I don't know if you saw, there was a Wall Street Journal reporting yesterday

01:06:08.680 about who Khalil is.

01:06:11.280 And a lot of the Jewish students at Colombia who are part of these encampments, part of

01:06:15.160 these protests, and they did have a ton of American Jewish students as part of them.

01:06:18.880 I've interviewed them, all stood up for Khalil and said, the reason he was the mediator

01:06:23.940 between our group and the administration is because he's trusted by all sides.

01:06:28.800 He has defended Jewish students before.

01:06:31.460 If he hears an anti-Semitic claim, he'll denounce it.

01:06:34.420 He's actually been at the Shabbat standards that they were holding.

01:06:38.820 I'd like to know specifically on the record what he has done that makes this claim that he's

01:06:45.100 a Hamas supporter or incited harassment and violence against Jewish students justifiable

01:06:49.400 because I've looked very carefully and I don't see anything.

01:06:52.540 He went on CNN and said his vision of the world is to do it.

01:06:56.100 Well, he works for UNRWA, which is basically a branch of Hamas.

01:06:57.860 That's one thing.

01:07:00.660 Megan, the UNRWA was funded by the U.S. government for decades under both political parties.

01:07:05.420 It's a part of the U.S.

01:07:07.160 And I don't agree with that.

01:07:09.240 But more recently, it's been very aligned with Hamas.

01:07:10.480 You can't deny that.

01:07:11.620 I mean, if you're going to say that people who go work for the UN are now suspect of

01:07:18.840 being terrorists or whatever, you know how many employees of the UNR and of UNRWA specifically?

01:07:23.860 Even Joe Biden cut ties with UNRWA because it was working with Hamas post 10-7.

01:07:29.700 Even the Democrats did that.

01:07:31.200 This is not a partisan position.

01:07:34.140 Well, Israel is not a partisan position.

01:07:35.980 Joe Biden fed Israel the arms and the money that they used to wage the war in Gaza.

01:07:40.920 Joe Biden has long been one of the most stalwart supporters of Israel in all of Washington.

01:07:46.940 Netanyahu has often said that.

01:07:48.340 To some extent, I agree with that.

01:07:49.800 But we're getting sidetracked because even though the guy worked for UNRWA, which I do

01:07:53.360 believe is working for Hamas, we can table that.

01:07:57.100 We can put that to the side.

01:07:58.040 I don't think there's any question this guy supports what Hamas did on 10-7.

01:08:01.720 Any question whatsoever.

01:08:03.140 He was wearing a shirt.

01:08:06.400 First of all, he worked for UNRWA.

01:08:07.700 Second of all, he referred to it as armed resistance, what the Palestinians did.

01:08:12.640 He said that.

01:08:13.480 It's on tape that we aired it on the show on Saturday.

01:08:16.520 That's not arms resistance.

01:08:18.140 That's terrorism, what happened on 10-7.

01:08:21.400 But you don't need any of that.

01:08:23.480 I'll give away all that, what I just said.

01:08:25.840 So let's just look at what he did as the spokesperson for this group, Columbia University Apartheid.

01:08:34.660 I can't remember the acronym, but it's, you know, the group, C-U-A-D, I think it was, Divest.

01:08:40.720 And he served their spokesperson.

01:08:43.060 That was the group that took over Hamilton Hall and engaged in the encampments on Columbia

01:08:48.700 University.

01:08:49.620 Hamilton Hall alone had so many crimes we could spend all day talking about.

01:08:54.060 Was Khalil there?

01:08:54.560 He was, not that we know of, we don't believe he was there, but he was the chief negotiator.

01:09:00.480 No, it matters.

01:09:01.300 When you're the spokesperson, that's literally written into the immigration and the terrorism

01:09:04.620 statutes.

01:09:05.420 If you are the spokesperson for a group that espouses or supports terror, you're out.

01:09:12.340 That's all they have to prove.

01:09:13.480 Spokesperson is enough.

01:09:15.000 And he was the spokesperson by every account that you hear of his behavior.

01:09:19.420 He was going in there daily to speak with Columbia University administrators saying,

01:09:23.700 this is what we need.

01:09:24.780 You need to divest entirely from Israel or you're going to get more Hamilton Halls.

01:09:29.180 That's it.

01:09:29.740 That's all we need to deport him.

01:09:31.880 OK, let me just say this is so important about what these protests were in general and

01:09:36.860 what the one at Columbia was, because I've interviewed a lot of Columbia students who

01:09:39.900 participated and even organized these protests.

01:09:41.860 Once again, many of whom are Jewish, many of whom are American Jews.

01:09:46.200 There's tons of American Jews who were vehemently opposed to the Israeli war in Gaza and who

01:09:50.760 went out and protested against it.

01:09:52.660 But a lot of the ones who show up are like Jewish voices for peace, which is as Hamas

01:09:56.580 supported.

01:09:57.360 They count as Hamas.

01:09:58.520 They count.

01:09:59.220 They still count as being Jewish.

01:10:01.880 And Megan, this idea.

01:10:03.200 Let's not pretend that they represent the dominant Jewish voice on the issue.

01:10:06.040 No, but they represent a significant they represent a significant minority.

01:10:10.040 They had Shabbat dinners inside the encampment at Columbia because of how many Jewish students

01:10:14.960 were there.

01:10:15.880 Here's and Khalil would go.

01:10:17.360 Here's what The Wall Street Journal said.

01:10:18.840 Khalil is someone who would even step in front of an aggressor to protect Jewish students.

01:10:23.220 And it was a believer in nonviolence.

01:10:24.960 And here's what an American Jewish woman at Columbia said.

01:10:27.720 I can state with full confidence that Mahmoud has never expressed support for Hamas.

01:10:32.500 And she said she's an American Jewish woman who believes in the importance of Israel

01:10:35.760 as a Jewish homeland.

01:10:36.720 And it talked about how often he would attend the Shabbat dinner inside the encampment.

01:10:42.200 I think like, let me just use January 6th for a minute.

01:10:44.520 Inside the encampment, Glenn.

01:10:45.120 You're talking like inside the encampment.

01:10:46.500 So yes, he would go and participate in this probably Jewish Voices for Peace Shabbat dinner,

01:10:51.420 which again, they're hard partisan Hamas supporters.

01:10:56.100 While he was stopping, while this group that he was affiliated with was stopping Jews from

01:11:00.440 attending the buildings they wanted to attend, crossing campus when they wanted to cross

01:11:04.460 campus professors to like, I'm sure I'm super glad he had Shabbat dinner while he was stopping

01:11:10.200 Jews from exercising their rights on the campus.

01:11:13.420 He who you have no proof that he was ever stopping Jews from his group.

01:11:18.720 OK, OK.

01:11:19.560 So that means like what I've spent, you know, two or three years arguing with liberals by arguing

01:11:24.900 that they had wildly overstated what January 6th was and had unjustly prosecuted the people

01:11:31.120 who were there, especially the ones who never engaged in violence.

01:11:34.420 And what they would tell me is, what do you mean?

01:11:36.620 Here are the people who are beating police officers.

01:11:38.860 This was not a nonviolent protest.

01:11:41.080 And I would say, OK, we'll punish the people who used violence against the police officers.

01:11:46.220 This is different.

01:11:46.540 You can't impute that to the entire protest.

01:11:49.360 No, you're taking you.

01:11:50.860 You're talking about terror and immigration.

01:11:54.280 No, you're in it.

01:11:54.980 You're we're talking about apples and oranges.

01:11:56.960 You that's a very different thing.

01:11:58.220 You can't charge somebody with crime by like thought or by affiliation unless it's an actual

01:12:03.000 conspiracy.

01:12:03.760 But we don't have to prove that he committed a crime.

01:12:06.260 We don't have to prove that.

01:12:07.500 Although I believe he probably did.

01:12:09.200 If he's the spokesperson for this group, then you could prove you could allege extortion.

01:12:13.280 You could allege conspiracy.

01:12:15.000 Now, Alvin Bragg is unlikely to do that.

01:12:16.920 But that doesn't mean crimes haven't been committed by this guy.

01:12:19.780 We'll have to see where the evidence goes.

01:12:22.060 They're looking into that right now, including the DOJ.

01:12:24.740 But you don't have to prove a crime.

01:12:26.680 It's enough that he did it.

01:12:27.900 If he if he did these things, if he acted as a spokesperson for this group that did

01:12:32.840 commit crimes on the campus of Columbia, he's out.

01:12:37.860 You can get him out under numerous provisions under immigration law for criminality, for

01:12:42.980 supporting terror, for espousing terror.

01:12:45.420 And then ultimately for the Marco Rubio secretary of state thing that says if you're a threat

01:12:49.040 to foreign policy, you're gone.

01:12:50.460 That's you don't have to prove anything other than Marco Rubio reasonably believes that.

01:12:55.540 The Bill of Rights still restricts what Marco Rubio can do, even though he's the secretary

01:12:59.520 of state.

01:13:00.120 The Bill of Rights applies to green card holders.

01:13:01.880 The Supreme Court has said that for 120 years.

01:13:04.120 And if Joe Biden had said, I'm deporting Jordan Peterson because he's expressing a lot of dissent

01:13:09.160 to my views and participating in protest against our policy.

01:13:12.480 And I deem him a threat to foreign policy.

01:13:14.120 Every conservative in the country would have said that is a threat to the Constitution to

01:13:18.280 do.

01:13:18.680 I think it has to be reasonable.

01:13:20.320 It has to be reasonable.

01:13:21.440 But OK, well, there's nothing unreasonable about saying being the spokesperson for an on

01:13:26.120 campus terror group means you violated your terms of staying here and your green card

01:13:31.040 is getting I think you're what I think you're wildly mischaracterizing the point of this

01:13:34.420 protest.

01:13:35.060 I remember, you know, very well in 2002, people who are opposed to the U.S.

01:13:38.800 invasion of Iraq were told, oh, they were Saddam Hussein supporters.

01:13:41.980 And they would say, no, we're not Saddam Hussein supporters.

01:13:44.140 We just don't think the U.S. should invade Iraq.

01:13:46.400 Same thing now.

01:13:47.140 If you don't support financing Ukraine, you're you're told, oh, you're a Putin supporter.

01:13:51.420 And you say, no, I'm not a Putin supporter.

01:13:52.820 I just don't want the U.S. involved in this war.

01:13:54.760 That's a strong protest were about that's a strong because these protests were against

01:13:59.800 no one who is really war in Gaza.

01:14:01.940 They were not defending Hamas.

01:14:04.300 They were demanding that Colombia divest.

01:14:07.280 They were demanding that.

01:14:08.340 That doesn't mean that you know that.

01:14:11.740 That they bought the the anti-Israel protesters modeled themselves after the student movements

01:14:18.580 in the 1980s that were against the apartheid regime, the main demand of which was we demand

01:14:23.960 that you divest from apartheid South Africa.

01:14:26.520 That's what these students are demanding.

01:14:28.120 We demand that is a peaceful.

01:14:30.040 That's fine.

01:14:30.460 Not a violent one.

01:14:31.420 The American students, the American students cannot be deported for having done that.

01:14:35.100 But someone here on a green card can be if they had he's Trump is not running around trying

01:14:41.640 to deport people who protested on behalf of the Palestinians in Dearborn, Michigan without

01:14:46.900 committing crimes.

01:14:47.820 He is not.

01:14:49.120 Not yet.

01:14:49.780 Not yet.

01:14:50.260 The reason this guy and he's not going to Glenn, let's be honest.

01:14:53.760 The reason this guy got caught in the crosshairs is because they unleashed hell on that Columbia

01:14:59.760 campus.

01:15:00.800 They behaved criminally.

01:15:02.920 His group, of which he was a spokesman, whom he was defending and making demands on behalf

01:15:08.500 of in dealing with the university daily.

01:15:12.020 That's why he's getting deported, not because he's pro-Palestinian.

01:15:15.600 I just I'm having trouble about this issue of is criminality necessary.

01:15:21.320 You keep accusing him of committing a crime.

01:15:23.060 Megan, hundreds of Columbia students, hundreds, maybe thousands were arrested throughout 2024

01:15:28.820 when the administration would call the NYPD on them.

01:15:31.780 Khalil was never even arrested as part of those protests.

01:15:35.360 It doesn't matter.

01:15:36.000 He was never one of the aggressors.

01:15:37.200 He was the mediator.

01:15:38.800 He was somebody that the administration trusted, that the protesters trusted to try and bridge

01:15:44.300 and deescalate.

01:15:45.160 That was his role to trying to.

01:15:47.220 That's not that is not at all.

01:15:48.980 That is the use.

01:15:51.060 Yeah.

01:15:51.520 No, he does look like a Hamas supporter to me.

01:15:53.200 I of that.

01:15:53.820 I have very little doubt.

01:15:54.800 I agree.

01:15:56.000 That's the thing.

01:15:56.660 He looks like a Hamas supporter to you, but that doesn't make him one.

01:15:59.820 A lot of people.

01:16:00.660 I'm not talking about his appearance.

01:16:02.500 I'm talking about the T-shirt, which has some guy with the head exploding and his behavior

01:16:08.020 at on is basically an arm of Hamas.

01:16:11.260 Just ask Joe Biden.

01:16:12.200 That's why we pulled our support.

01:16:13.460 But there are there there is evidence that he's a Hamas supporter, but to prove that

01:16:17.620 so I there's it's pointless to spend too much time here.

01:16:20.100 We have to deprive somebody.

01:16:21.640 We've pulled somebody's green card because he has schizophrenia.

01:16:24.720 Tell me we can pull people's green cards for things like that for violating the terms

01:16:30.120 of their visa.

01:16:31.200 We've put we said, you know what?

01:16:32.320 You violated the terms that we gave you the permission to stay here.

01:16:34.960 So so it's over.

01:16:35.920 But we can't pull it for somebody who's the spokesperson for a group that's banging down

01:16:40.640 the doors, that's smashing windows with hammers, that's intimidating Jewish students

01:16:44.860 on campus.

01:16:45.940 That's a farce.

01:16:47.380 Marco Rubio can do it.

01:16:49.520 Pam Bondi can do it.

01:16:51.220 President Trump can do it.

01:16:52.620 You can do it whether he's committed a crime or whether he hasn't, whether he's just in

01:16:56.020 great engaged in these behaviors.

01:16:58.000 And by the way, just because he wasn't charged, Alvin Bragg doesn't mean he did not commit

01:17:03.420 extortion or he wasn't ever arrested, even though hundreds, hundreds of New York, of

01:17:09.360 Columbia students were arrested.

01:17:10.840 He was never.

01:17:11.620 I think it matters a great deal, because if you're not then deporting him because of

01:17:15.600 criminality, you're admitting that you're you're deporting him because of his views

01:17:19.360 and the view that is most sacred.

01:17:22.020 That's not true.

01:17:22.600 Trump administration.

01:17:23.300 This is why he works.

01:17:24.840 Trump, no, but but there's no but these that if that's these claims, they have to be

01:17:30.520 proven.

01:17:31.200 If you're saying, oh, that's right, but a conspirator would not have been.

01:17:35.480 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

01:17:36.460 You're misstating it.

01:17:37.620 A conspirator would not have been in Hamilton Hall necessarily.

01:17:40.120 The conspirator may have been.

01:17:41.460 He wasn't in Hamilton Hall, Megan.

01:17:43.320 He wasn't.

01:17:43.940 I that's my understanding.

01:17:45.820 I've already said that.

01:17:47.060 I've already said that.

01:17:48.140 I've already said that.

01:17:48.880 That's my understanding.

01:17:49.620 He did not.

01:17:50.200 He did.

01:17:50.720 He was not that.

01:17:51.680 All of them got arrested.

01:17:52.640 Who are you arguing with me?

01:17:54.200 I already gave you this point.

01:17:55.880 I already gave you this point.

01:17:57.380 It's pointless for us to keep going back and forth.

01:17:59.200 What I'm saying is that, of course, the cops wouldn't have arrested him.

01:18:02.400 He was the negotiator.

01:18:03.960 He was the spokesperson.

01:18:05.700 He was the one in there with Columbia saying, sure is a nice university you have here.

01:18:10.860 Shame if anything happened to it.

01:18:12.600 You could charge conspiracy.

01:18:14.020 You could charge extortion.

01:18:15.480 Whether it's been done or not is irrelevant.

01:18:17.380 He violated the terms of his permission slip to be here, and he can be deported for that

01:18:24.240 alone, never mind whether he actually crossed a criminal line, actually espoused or supported

01:18:29.680 terrorism.

01:18:30.600 The reason you need to turn him into a Hamas supporter is because Hamas is a designated

01:18:35.660 terrorist organization, and that's how you then complain that he is deportable.

01:18:39.420 But he has never been a Hamas supporter.

01:18:41.800 He's an opponent of the Israeli war in Gaza.

01:18:44.140 His argument is, is that that war has been incredibly indiscriminating, that it's a war

01:18:48.780 crime.

01:18:49.440 The International Criminal Court agrees with him.

01:18:51.840 Many countries around the world agree with that view.

01:18:54.100 He was protesting against a war, not in favor of a terrorist group.

01:18:58.340 And that is why you think Jewish students are in favor of Hamas?

01:19:02.000 I don't know.

01:19:02.500 I know a lot of Jewish opponents of Israel.

01:19:04.700 I don't know a single one of them who thinks that what Hamas did on October 7th is justifiable.

01:19:11.060 Jewish voices for peace is almost indistinguishable.

01:19:14.140 It's a weird name they've chosen for themselves, then, if they support Hamas, Jewish voices

01:19:17.940 for peace.

01:19:18.420 Well, listen to Alan Dershowitz.

01:19:18.960 That is an anti-war group.

01:19:20.140 Listen to Alan Dershowitz.

01:19:20.900 He's, Alan Dershowitz goes off about this group every other day, what they've done to

01:19:24.920 him, how they've targeted him.

01:19:26.240 Look, it's, don't say like, oh, well, they're Jewish voices and they're against, they're

01:19:30.640 in favor of Mahmoud Khalil.

01:19:32.580 If they're Jewish voices for peace, they're totally unpersuasive to me.

01:19:35.400 They, they've got a dog in this hunt.

01:19:37.080 We've seen that repeatedly with that group.

01:19:38.800 It's fine.

01:19:39.360 He doesn't, I do think he's a Hamas supporter, 100%.

01:19:42.600 I believe that, but it's not necessary to my argument.

01:19:45.680 If he associates with terror, if he poses a threat to the United States, either or, he

01:19:50.000 can be deported.

01:19:50.800 If he endorses or espouses terrorist activity, he can be deported.

01:19:55.600 If he violates the term of his visa, he can be deported.

01:19:59.460 Or if the secretary of state has reasonable grounds to believe that he poses a serious adverse

01:20:04.420 foreign policy consequence to the United States, he can be deported.

01:20:07.300 But he's done.

01:20:08.800 He's out.

01:20:09.620 This is not going to work out well for him.

01:20:11.540 And his hopes of becoming an American citizen are over.

01:20:15.360 I do think it's important to note that support for Israel was one of the top two or three

01:20:21.260 priorities of many top Trump officials.

01:20:23.640 They campaigned on it.

01:20:24.660 Miriam Adelson and other pro-Israel groups gave them a ton of money to make sure that

01:20:28.380 that was a priority.

01:20:29.420 And I think it's a huge coincidence to believe that they just suddenly found immigration problems

01:20:34.540 and exactly the group that most opposes the policy that they most cherish.

01:20:39.900 And I think that's where the free speech issues come in.

01:20:42.420 I'm going to give you a point on our earlier discussion about the trend to Aragua alleged

01:20:49.300 gang members being deported.

01:20:51.040 Because I did ask my team, like, what happens to them when they go to El Salvador?

01:20:55.560 Which is, I confess, a question I had not asked myself.

01:20:58.460 And here's what the Associated Press is reporting, that the El Salvadorian justice minister has

01:21:07.420 said that those held at this facility will never return to their communities, but will

01:21:13.680 only be held for a period of one year, but it's renewable.

01:21:19.300 So, you know, if you're going down the lane of they may not be guilty, I can see this is

01:21:25.060 potentially problematic with the justice that they'll be facing on the other end.

01:21:28.200 But I stand by the fact that Trump had had the right to do it in any event.

01:21:32.500 But I concede there's some problems there on the due process and over in El Salvador.

01:21:38.940 What a shock.

01:21:39.940 OK, let's move on, because we have problems of our own here in the United States, and they

01:21:44.440 relate to The New York Times in many ways.

01:21:47.300 But here's today's way.

01:21:50.240 Unbelievably, unbelievably, The New York Times comes out with a piece dated yesterday, March

01:21:55.660 16th, by opinion columnist Zeynep Tufekci.

01:22:00.260 We were badly misled about the event that changed our lives.

01:22:05.100 We were badly misled.

01:22:08.500 Somebody online changed it to, we badly misled you about the event that changed our lives.

01:22:16.260 And that's a much more accurate headline from The New York Times.

01:22:21.820 Glenn, this is so infuriating to me.

01:22:24.680 The whole thing is about stuff you've known, your audience has known, me and mine too.

01:22:31.960 And most people who have been independent thinkers are certainly as part of right wing media,

01:22:37.560 people who listen to Rumble.

01:22:38.480 We've known this for years, since 2021.

01:22:43.440 But here they are, 2025, with an aha moment on the lab leak as the origin of COVID and how

01:22:53.680 those in charge misled us.

01:22:57.280 I'll just give you a couple of highlights from the piece and then let you take it.

01:23:01.700 So she starts by pointing out, in 2020, when people started speculating about a lab accident

01:23:07.180 being the spark behind the pandemic, they were treated like kooks and cranks.

01:23:12.560 By whom, again?

01:23:14.460 Zeynep?

01:23:15.220 Who is treating them like kooks and cranks?

01:23:17.060 Could it have been The New York Times?

01:23:18.040 Anyway, okay.

01:23:19.140 Many public health officials and prominent scientists dismissed the idea as a conspiracy theory,

01:23:25.300 insisting the virus had emerged from animals.

01:23:27.400 And when EcoHealth Alliance lost a grant because it was doing this so-called gain-of-function

01:23:32.620 research, no fewer than 77 Nobel laureates and 31 scientific societies lined up to defend

01:23:41.520 the organization.

01:23:43.160 So the Wuhan research was totally safe and the pandemic was definitely caused by natural

01:23:47.280 transition.

01:23:48.060 It certainly seemed like consensus.

01:23:50.160 We have since learned, however, that to promote the appearance of consensus, some officials

01:23:55.300 and scientists hid or understated crucial facts, misled at least one reporter—she's speaking

01:24:04.400 of Don McGahn, who worked for The New York Times—orchestrated campaigns of supposedly independent

01:24:11.580 voices and even compared notes about how to hide their communications.

01:24:15.500 The reason she wants us to know that it was probably a lab leak and that we were so grossly misled is

01:24:25.760 because people need convincing that the next pandemic is only an accident away, basically

01:24:34.040 now that RFKJ is in charge of HHS and she's seeing measles and other problems that she cares

01:24:41.180 about.

01:24:41.540 So she really, really wants us to trust our public health entities again—not him, but like the

01:24:48.320 scientists and the Nobel laureates and the Dr. Fauci's of the world—because they must have

01:24:53.580 credibility in the wake of all these online influencers or bad-faith actors who she later refers to as

01:25:01.980 follows.

01:25:02.620 And I think she means you and me and others like us.

01:25:04.860 Some of the loudest proponents of the lab leak theory weren't just earnestly making inquiries.

01:25:11.500 They were acting in terrible faith, using the debate over pandemic origins to attack legitimate,

01:25:18.680 beneficial science, to inflame public opinion, to get attention.

01:25:24.080 She goes on to say,

01:25:25.080 These have-truths and strategic deceptions made it easier for people with the worst motives

01:25:31.580 to appear trustworthy while discrediting important institutions where many earnestly labor in the

01:25:40.060 public interest.

01:25:40.860 My God, Glenn, this thing has it all.

01:25:43.020 You take it.

01:25:43.980 I think you picked out the most important section, which is, in that last one, it's sort of an attempt

01:25:50.200 to acknowledge that the people questioning and then dissenting from the pronouncements

01:25:55.980 of Dr. Fauci and that entire establishment he leads ended up being correct.

01:26:00.960 But she still has to preserve the idea that the only trustworthy views are found in places

01:26:06.240 like the New York Times, not in that dirty sewage of independent media.

01:26:10.320 So she has to say, even though they were right, they kind of were—had bad motives and were

01:26:16.720 trying to discredit institutions, obviously, the people who discredited these institutions,

01:26:22.500 these scientific institutions, are the people who led them.

01:26:25.780 And it wasn't just that they got it wrong.

01:26:28.100 It's that they—the whole thing, you know, starting all the way back in 2020 with that

01:26:32.600 Lancet letter that was engineered by Peter Daszak at EcoHealth Alliance, who had a financial

01:26:37.420 interest and a reputational interest in ensuring that nobody thought it was a lab leak, since

01:26:42.820 he himself had money to work with Wuhan on the very research that likely caused the leak.

01:26:48.020 They allowed that person to be the sort of objective source.

01:26:51.480 They hid his key role.

01:26:53.140 And that's the letter that said, anybody suggesting a lab leak is engaged in racist disinformation

01:26:58.600 and conspiracy mongering against our Chinese colleagues.

01:27:01.540 And they pretended to have a certainty about the origins of the COVID virus that they knew

01:27:07.320 they didn't have, because internally, all these people, including some of the ones who

01:27:11.740 signed that, were saying, actually, I think a lab leak is more likely.

01:27:16.320 And Fauci convinced them all that, like, for the sake of science or something, they have

01:27:20.420 to lie to the public.

01:27:21.740 And that's exactly what they did.

01:27:23.640 And even though I'm not going to sit here and say I knew from the very beginning that it

01:27:27.480 was a lab leak, I'm not a scientist, I'm not an epidemiologist, I did observe and complained

01:27:32.140 about the fact that there was no permission to debate these questions.

01:27:36.760 If you had raised the issue of a lab leak, including from Wuhan lab, you would have been

01:27:41.480 censored off the internet by every major big tech platform.

01:27:45.600 They didn't permit any questioning or debate about them.

01:27:48.540 They destroyed people's reputations.

01:27:50.700 And as it turns out, they were the ones who were wrong, and not just wrong, but corruptly

01:27:55.060 wrong.

01:27:55.720 Now, this particular op-ed writer has had some instances where she was deviating from COVID

01:28:01.700 orthodoxy, but you cannot write an op-ed like this in the New York Times without acknowledging

01:28:06.540 that the leading institution preventing this discussion, destroying people's reputations

01:28:12.280 based on their correct opinions, was itself the New York Times and corporate media outlets

01:28:17.300 like it.

01:28:17.760 It's this attempt to rewrite history and say, oh, we're here to tell you the truth now so

01:28:22.940 you can trust us when it's very easy now to say all this now that intelligence agencies

01:28:28.140 have come out and said they think it's a lab leak.

01:28:29.700 And that's what's going on, is an attempt to salvage reputations, not to be truthful.

01:28:34.940 And it's so belated.

01:28:38.180 I mean, even other mainstream news organizations have published this kind of piece years earlier.

01:28:44.500 Like, they are literally the last to the party.

01:28:47.200 And now they want credit for saying, oh, we were misled.

01:28:50.920 We had no idea.

01:28:51.960 And you mentioned the Times' own past sins, Apoorva Mandevelli, who is, she's their COVID

01:28:59.460 reporter.

01:29:00.160 She replaced that guy, Don.

01:29:01.660 I think his last name is McGann, if memory serves.

01:29:04.280 In any event, she replaced him.

01:29:05.820 McNeil.

01:29:06.280 McNeil, sorry.

01:29:07.460 I think McGann might have been a White House lawyer.

01:29:09.440 Anyway, she's their COVID reporter.

01:29:14.020 In 2021, not only did she dismiss the possibility that this thing came from a lab, but she claimed

01:29:20.300 to say otherwise was racist.

01:29:23.700 She tweeted out the following, someday we will stop talking about the lab leak theory and maybe

01:29:29.740 even admit its racist roots.

01:29:33.080 Guess who's not mentioned in Zeynep Tufekci's piece?

01:29:37.200 Apoorva Mandevelli.

01:29:39.900 I mean, it's insane what they've done to us here.

01:29:43.320 I mean, it was such grotesque politicization of the science.

01:29:46.340 I'll never, ever forget how they said you have to stay at home.

01:29:50.160 You cannot leave your home under any circumstances, even if it's to go to your parents' funeral.

01:29:55.540 You're a grandma killer.

01:29:57.080 You're a sociopath if you leave your home.

01:29:59.240 And then the Black Lives Matter protests erupt in the middle of 2020, four months later.

01:30:03.520 And they're like, not only can you leave your home, you should leave your home because

01:30:06.880 it's a huge public health risk to allow racism to fester.

01:30:10.800 And they just radically revised their quote unquote expertise based on their political

01:30:15.360 agenda.

01:30:16.440 And this is exactly, you know, it's so ironic, Megan, because their view of how COVID spread,

01:30:22.900 which was, oh, these Chinese people have filthy, disgusting, unsanitary wet markets and

01:30:29.080 that's, and they eat bats.

01:30:30.820 And that's how this actually escaped was a much more racist theory than the view that,

01:30:37.560 you know what?

01:30:37.960 The Chinese have a very sophisticated research lab that we in the United States fund and work

01:30:42.540 with.

01:30:43.300 And perhaps they used, you know, insufficiently careful procedures.

01:30:47.320 And that was the way more racist view, the one they were pushing.

01:30:51.100 But ultimately, it didn't matter which was the racist view or not.

01:30:54.060 The only thing that mattered was what actually happened.

01:30:58.320 And by exploiting racism and xenophobia against the Chinese, these journalists prevented the

01:31:05.440 truth from even being discussed, let alone being let out.

01:31:08.100 And I hope nobody falls for this now that The New York Times is on the side of truth.

01:31:11.600 They're just engaged in reputational rehabilitation.

01:31:13.660 That's it.

01:31:15.900 I mean, you read this piece and it's just, it's so infuriating.

01:31:18.840 And she writes, only an honest conversation will lead us forward.

01:31:23.700 Right.

01:31:24.300 So you need to get honest, New York Times, about your role in all of this.

01:31:30.080 And this piece doesn't even come close.

01:31:32.200 At no point, it doesn't acknowledge any of its own bad reporting or mistakes.

01:31:36.800 I mean, the number of the, I just went, I just did like a quick search of New York Times

01:31:41.480 pieces.

01:31:41.780 This one is from, hold on, July of 2023.

01:31:47.060 By this point, we had plenty of reason.

01:31:49.080 We already knew about the conspiracy behind that Lancet piece and the other nature piece

01:31:55.440 and the collaboration amongst Fauci and these virologists to say it's definitely not the

01:31:59.940 lab leak.

01:32:00.240 We already knew.

01:32:01.060 We knew about that a year plus earlier.

01:32:02.920 But in July of 2023, once again, they're saying, oh, two virologists testified that they

01:32:09.420 remained convinced that the coronavirus was natural in origin and said Fauci did not exert

01:32:14.740 influence over a study they wrote.

01:32:16.160 And they're completely on the side of those virologists trying to tell us that this originated not in a lab, but in nature, just like Fauci maintained.

01:32:27.160 Glenn, it's always a pleasure.

01:32:28.920 I was a little spicy today, but it's great to disagree.

01:32:31.360 And I love that our audience gets to hear your POV.

01:32:33.720 Yeah, we're both very passionate and spirited advocates of things we believe.

01:32:37.280 And I love the fact that we can have those conversations.

01:32:40.320 And it only, for me at least, enhances my respect for you.

01:32:43.260 So I really appreciate having me on to do that.

01:32:45.600 Likewise.

01:32:46.040 Likewise.

01:32:46.340 And I totally I love hearing that point of view, especially from the point of Palestinian protesters,

01:32:52.160 because that you are allowed to support Palestine, you are allowed to be against Israel.

01:32:58.460 Those are all fine things to do and be and say.

01:33:00.760 It's just, you know, now when you cross over into, you know, potentially more Hamas support, but that's in dispute.

01:33:07.500 And when you're not a citizen, things change because there's not equal rights between green card holders and American citizens.

01:33:14.100 Not yet.

01:33:15.120 Glenn, a pleasure.

01:33:16.000 I'll see you over on Rumble.

01:33:17.580 Great seeing you, Megan.

01:33:18.380 Thanks.

01:33:18.740 Thanks for having me.

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01:36:13.740 I'm going to stay for a minute on this New York Times thing.

01:36:16.020 Okay, I've just got to talk to you about this for a minute because my blood is boiling over this.

01:36:19.820 I'm so angry.

01:36:21.840 They, they, of course, it wasn't the New York Times.

01:36:24.420 It wasn't only the New York Times.

01:36:26.040 The Post has got a great piece from last June, I think it was, where they just ripped these folks to shreds.

01:36:32.200 Because there, too, a New York Times writer was blaming partisan politics for the lab leak cover-up.

01:36:39.020 There was a piece by an op-ed person back then.

01:36:42.220 They ran a molecular biologist essay, Alina Chan, back then talking about this.

01:36:46.520 So this person blamed partisan politics for covering up that this was a lab leak.

01:36:53.600 And the Post pointed out at the time, it wasn't just New York Times.

01:36:57.600 It was CNN.

01:36:58.500 It was MSNBC.

01:36:59.860 They called the lab leak a debunked conspiracy theory.

01:37:03.420 NPR falsely asserted, quote, scientists debunk lab accident theory of pandemic emergence.

01:37:11.240 Reading here from the New York Post, again, June of 24, social media companies outright censored lab leak claims.

01:37:19.240 Facebook banned a post-opinion column by Stephen Mosier for speculating on the possibility that it was a lab leak.

01:37:27.840 They write as recently as Monday, again, in June of 24, an AP story bizarrely claimed, quote,

01:37:34.380 Many scientists believe the virus most likely emerged in nature, end quote,

01:37:39.900 There's no scientific information backing the lab leak explanation.

01:37:45.500 It's just, it's unbelievable how we were gaslit.

01:37:51.000 And the New York Times wants to pretend that it was just the experts.

01:37:55.020 It 100% was the experts.

01:37:57.420 But that the media had no role.

01:37:59.360 That they were not complicit.

01:38:01.040 But they were fully complicit.

01:38:02.860 And Glenn's exactly right.

01:38:05.040 Now they're desperate to try to cleanse their own hands because they need to have credibility going into the Trump years,

01:38:11.800 especially under the awful, evil RFKJ, to tell you when our leaders are misleading us.

01:38:19.180 That's what's happening here.

01:38:20.860 It's infuriating.

01:38:22.520 They have no credibility.

01:38:25.120 No one believes them anymore.

01:38:27.100 No, not those experts who ran these institutions under Joe Biden.

01:38:30.840 I believe public health and the trust in it will resurrect slowly now under RFKJ, at HHS, under Bhattacharya, at NIH, and under McCary at FDA.

01:38:44.600 I believe it will resurrect, but it's going to take some time.

01:38:48.420 And by the way, the election of President Trump was a middle finger to all these institutes, too.

01:38:52.820 In part, it was America saying, F you and what you did to us.

01:38:57.660 You lied to us over the most consequential things affecting our lives, our health care, our loved ones dying and our ability to see them, our children and their wellness in schools, the masking on toddlers nonstop.

01:39:09.600 F you.

01:39:11.120 You're all fucking fired.

01:39:13.620 All of you fired.

01:39:15.320 So it's like it's all baked in.

01:39:18.780 And now the New York Times has to try to whitewash what it did.

01:39:22.500 So you'll believe it when it tells you that Kennedy's evil and you need to trust them, need to trust the Times.

01:39:30.840 I just want to go back for a second.

01:39:32.800 Just give me three minutes on this, OK?

01:39:34.740 Because the Times comes to this realization in what are we in now?

01:39:38.680 March of 2025.

01:39:40.300 It's literally been five years since these lies were told.

01:39:47.640 And I went back just to see.

01:39:50.960 It was June of 21 that we had on our show Josh Rogan, who worked at The Washington Post, did work at The Washington Post and does.

01:40:02.240 That's fine.

01:40:02.860 To their credit, they employ Josh.

01:40:04.920 But he wrote a book on his own that took a dive into this, and he did some articles in The Post also raising questions about whether this was from a lab and the Wuhan lab and how secure it was and the so-called bat lady there and how she was working with EcoHealth Alliance, which was U.S. government funded, on gain-of-function research, which is the very same kind of research that caused the coronavirus.

01:40:28.080 And we had him on in June of 21, you guys.

01:40:32.100 June, it was one year into the pandemic.

01:40:36.400 Now we're four years post that.

01:40:38.420 And The New York Times is like, oh, we think it was from a lab.

01:40:43.640 We were being misled.

01:40:45.640 How did that happen?

01:40:46.980 How are we so misled?

01:40:48.540 How did all these experts mislead us on EcoHealth Alliance?

01:40:51.960 It's just willful blindness at best on their part.

01:40:57.940 More than likely, it was an active cover-up because they had a vested interest in the messages that were being handed down.

01:41:06.660 They were pro-cover, a pro-lockdown.

01:41:09.260 They were pro these over-the-top so-called health procedures, and they didn't want anything undermining the message.

01:41:17.280 And just like this accidentally happening, you know, could accidentally happen to anyone, anywhere, worked with their narrative.

01:41:25.580 And plus, they couldn't have their experts undermined at any part of the message.

01:41:28.800 If Fauci was wrong about this being a naturally-caused virus, then he could be wrong about masks.

01:41:34.400 He could be wrong about distancing.

01:41:36.040 He could be wrong about lockdowns and school closures, right?

01:41:39.360 He needed to be upheld at all costs.

01:41:40.900 And by the way, she doesn't even fucking mention Fauci in her piece.

01:41:44.340 She mentions Francis Collins, but she keeps Fauci's fingers squeaky clean, which they're definitely not.

01:41:53.680 All the stuff she mentioned with Francis Collins, Fauci did too.

01:41:57.120 And that's not my opinion.

01:41:58.740 Go back and look.

01:41:59.880 He can come sue me if I'm saying the wrong thing.

01:42:02.660 He is also outed in the Francis Collins emails that Republicans got their hands on in 2022 that showed all this coordination with the virologists behind the scenes.

01:42:13.280 They both were in there trying to get them to not say lab leak.

01:42:17.740 That was outed by Republicans in 2022.

01:42:20.860 It was January of 2022 after the Republicans found those emails.

01:42:27.100 They had taken over control of the House.

01:42:28.860 They demanded all these emails.

01:42:30.580 And then they released them.

01:42:32.080 That we knew all of this for sure.

01:42:33.580 And I did a talking points memo.

01:42:36.020 Steve, find me the number of that episode if you have time.

01:42:39.860 You can go back and look at it.

01:42:41.200 It was one of the best pieces we ever did on the show.

01:42:45.020 One of the absolute best.

01:42:46.660 And it lays out exactly how they did it.

01:42:49.560 How they whitewashed lab leak right out of the conversation or tried.

01:42:52.580 How they pressured these virologists who the early signs from all of them and emails were saying,

01:42:56.900 Holy shit, this looks like lab leak that we manipulated this thing in the lab.

01:43:03.440 I cannot get past it.

01:43:04.740 Into definitely not a lab.

01:43:07.200 Lab leak theory is racist.

01:43:08.940 It was natural origin.

01:43:09.920 It was all there in the emails, black and white.

01:43:13.560 January 2022.

01:43:15.600 That's three years ago, New York Times.

01:43:18.900 Where was your piece then?

01:43:20.320 You spent the next three years doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on natural origin.

01:43:26.880 They're so dishonest.

01:43:28.860 And now she wants credit for being the one to speak truth to power and kind of own how they've been misled.

01:43:36.620 Oh my God, what a lie.

01:43:37.520 She doesn't even go over the Times' sins, even to say we were mistaken, we were misled.

01:43:41.860 Episode 241, if you want to watch it.

01:43:43.860 Here's a sample of our broadcast in January.

01:43:47.220 I think it was January 14th, 2022.

01:43:49.800 House Republicans finally got their hands on emails between doctors Fauci, Collins, and some of the world's top virologists.

01:44:00.100 It turns out the very officials who dismissed that as a fringe conspiracy theory in the press were being told exactly the opposite by the world's top experts as early as February 2020.

01:44:13.140 They had studied the virus's genetic makeup, you see, and found the insertion of a genetic sequence that makes a virus more transmissible, a furin cleavage site.

01:44:25.580 One of those scientists on that call with Fauci and Collins, a Brit, Sir Jeremy Farrar, sent a follow-up email to Collins and Fauci the next day, expressing support for the lab leak theory.

01:44:38.080 He relayed the thoughts of two more experts, Robert Gary of Tulane University and Michael Farzan of the Scripps Research Institute.

01:44:45.840 Robert Gary, he said, can't think of a plausible natural scenario.

01:44:51.400 And Farzan was, quote, bothered by the furin site and having a hard time explaining that outside the lab.

01:44:58.160 Christiane Anderson of the Scripps Research Institute put the lab leak theory at 60 to 70 percent likely.

01:45:04.380 Two days after those scientists went to Collins and Fauci and told them this thing likely came from a lab, five of them authored a paper.

01:45:12.920 They did a complete 180, concluding that this virus was clearly, quote, that's a quote, clearly not from a lab and clearly not manipulated by man.

01:45:26.960 Fauci wanted the lab leak theory gone.

01:45:29.580 He later called it a shiny object, reassuring colleagues it would go away.

01:45:34.800 Fauci was behind much of the U.S. funding in China.

01:45:37.600 He admitted, approving grants for EcoHealth Alliance, a group that researched coronaviruses in the Wuhan lab.

01:45:44.940 EcoHealth's CEO, Peter Daszak, was one of the first to beg officials to reject the lab leak theory.

01:45:51.820 And tellingly, he warned that the public release of the virus's genetic sequencing would bring, quote, very unwelcome attention.

01:46:01.620 We laid it all out for you guys.

01:46:05.060 January 2022.

01:46:06.880 If you're a New York Times reader, you're reading it in March 2025 for the first time.

01:46:12.620 I'm sorry, but this is just such a dereliction.

01:46:16.720 All the stuff.

01:46:17.900 You heard me talking back then about Jeremy Farrar.

01:46:21.160 Here she is in her piece.

01:46:22.460 Spooked.

01:46:22.960 The authors reached out for advice to Jeremy Farrar.

01:46:25.440 Now the chief scientist at the World Health Organization.

01:46:27.500 Farrar reviewed their draft and suggested to the authors that they rule out the lab leak even more directly.

01:46:33.760 They complied.

01:46:34.700 She talks about Christiane Anderson, who you heard me mention there, and how he wrote internally in the Slack messages between them.

01:46:40.920 The lab escape version of this is so friggin' likely to have happened because they were already doing this type of work and the molecular data is fully consistent with that scenario.

01:46:49.020 All the same names.

01:46:50.340 Peter Daszak, who you heard me mention there.

01:46:52.580 She finally has gotten around to all of them.

01:46:54.860 Three years after this was known, thanks to those House Republicans who got their hands on the emails, who I'm sure she just totally ignored as, what, some of these terrible influencers acting, quote, in terrible faith, using the debate over pandemic origins to attack legitimate beneficial science to inflame public opinion.

01:47:18.740 That's her just trying to justify why they didn't do any of this.

01:47:25.420 She writes, that's also why it might be tempting for these officials or the organizations they represent to avoid looking too closely at mistakes they made, at the ways that while trying to do such a hard job, they might have withheld relevant information and even misled the public.

01:47:42.540 Like, okay, look at her, look at her still bending over backward to run cover for these people who 100% actively misled us.

01:47:52.280 Fauci is a villain.

01:47:54.340 He's a villain.

01:47:55.800 What sparked Bobby Kennedy's resurrection from the disinformation dozen leader to the health secretary right now?

01:48:05.500 It was his book, the real Anthony Fauci, again, who she still doesn't mention when she's going over the list of people who misled us.

01:48:14.140 Even Francis Collins just gets barely a passing mention.

01:48:17.500 It was Fauci.

01:48:19.020 It was Francis Collins.

01:48:20.740 It was the CDC.

01:48:22.460 It was all these virologists who were being controlled by Collins and Fauci.

01:48:26.380 Those are the villains.

01:48:27.600 Still, the New York Times won't admit it.

01:48:29.200 Still, they run cover.

01:48:30.900 She mentions Robert Gary.

01:48:32.780 He's also, I think, referenced in this piece.

01:48:34.680 Because we had him on the show in 2022.

01:48:39.740 We were stunned he agreed to come on, quite frankly.

01:48:42.660 And here's a bit of how that went.

01:48:44.900 Well, forgive me, wasn't it just days, wasn't it just two days later that you reversed yourself and said, actually, no, okay, I forget what I said about it coming from a lab.

01:48:52.820 I now say it's natural.

01:48:53.340 It wasn't really a reversal.

01:48:55.220 I mean, it's what scientists do.

01:48:57.080 You know, we kick around ideas.

01:48:58.480 You know, we have, you know, private conversations.

01:49:00.840 Sometimes you're playing devil's advocate.

01:49:02.480 I mean, that's pretty much what I was doing in that one email, you know.

01:49:06.700 Well, what happened in those 48 hours?

01:49:08.900 What changed?

01:49:09.540 What did you see?

01:49:11.340 Well, it looked at the genomes of the viruses more closely.

01:49:14.920 That, too, is a spicy interview where I really pressed him on his sudden reversal and how much influence Fauci and Collins had over him.

01:49:22.940 It's all spelled out now.

01:49:24.260 I mean, literally, Fauci, I think, has one mention in this piece.

01:49:27.520 One.

01:49:29.160 It's just, it's really infuriating.

01:49:31.400 And look, as Glenn said, it is, this isn't like some long infomercial for independent media.

01:49:36.560 It's just the facts of why nobody trusts the New York Times or CNN or MSNBC anymore.

01:49:47.420 They failed us at one of the most consequential moments in U.S. history.

01:49:54.680 They failed us.

01:49:57.120 And instead of doing a true mea culpa, like a true, we screwed it up and we're sorry, they just now want to say we were misled.

01:50:07.580 Look, I like Jake Tapper.

01:50:09.720 We're friendly.

01:50:10.960 But he did something similar.

01:50:12.640 He could have come out with that book and said, I want to own all my own mistakes, my own failure to question the lies being pushed on us by officials at the White House about Joe Biden's health.

01:50:23.560 But instead, he just tried to join on with the we were misled crowd.

01:50:28.160 I was, you know, I was one of the innocent without acknowledging.

01:50:31.080 And I misled you.

01:50:33.640 I misled you when whole swaths of other media got it.

01:50:41.180 They happened to be right of center or independent who got the issue with Joe Biden's health because we could see it with our own eyes.

01:50:48.940 Who got that this thing likely came from the Wuhan lab where they were studying that coronaviruses and how to make them more dangerous to humans.

01:50:59.320 It's just there can be redemption after massive fails, including in journalism.

01:51:06.540 But there must first be an acknowledgement of the failure of the of the sin in the case of The New York Times here.

01:51:15.540 Without that, no, apology not accepted.

01:51:20.140 Mea culpa rejected.

01:51:22.020 And you've made no progress with us whatsoever.

01:51:25.740 Whatsoever.

01:51:26.660 None.

01:51:27.460 We distrust you more than ever when you do things like this.

01:51:31.340 All right.

01:51:33.180 To end it on a happy note, and this is likely one of the many reasons why we officially became an award winning podcast recently, because even some outsiders are recognizing the good work that goes on here at the MK show.

01:51:49.020 And frankly, just the trust that we have with our audience, which is thanks to all of you.

01:51:53.800 Wanted to mention last week, we were nominated for an iHeart podcast award.

01:51:57.660 I love the people at iHeart.

01:51:58.760 I have to say I know some of them and they are good people.

01:52:00.920 The woman who runs it is awesome, Julie.

01:52:04.280 And we were nominated for best political podcast.

01:52:07.700 We were up against some interesting competition.

01:52:10.300 Pod Save America.

01:52:11.560 That's the former Obama guys left wing.

01:52:14.120 The NPR politics podcast.

01:52:16.540 You know about them.

01:52:17.800 Breaking points with Crystal and Sager and the Native Land podcast.

01:52:21.700 The winner was determined by a vote of a, quote, panel of blue ribbon podcast industry leaders, creatives and visionaries.

01:52:28.000 And guess what?

01:52:28.800 We won.

01:52:29.540 So that was exciting.

01:52:31.240 That was fun.

01:52:32.040 Two of our great, great producers who helped make the MK show possible.

01:52:36.320 Lauren and Allison were down there in Austin, Texas to accept the reward there.

01:52:42.060 They snapped this pic of the slide.

01:52:44.800 And oh, we got to put their picture up, Steve.

01:52:46.380 We'll get we'll put their picture up of there.

01:52:48.120 They are.

01:52:48.320 Look, that's Lauren in the green dress.

01:52:50.100 And there's Allison on the right.

01:52:51.540 She's our booking producer.

01:52:54.000 These are two of the great people who make the show possible.

01:52:57.000 We thought it'd be great to send them down there because why shouldn't they receive the award if we want it?

01:53:01.320 We actually have got real hardware.

01:53:02.660 And those are some of sort of the, you know, the sort of nameless folks who you guys probably don't know as well.

01:53:09.720 You know, Canadian Debbie, you know, Steve.

01:53:11.200 But Lauren LaBruna and Allison Jordan are just two of the many others who help bring you the show every day.

01:53:16.260 And I'm thrilled they got to be there and have fun in Austin.

01:53:18.620 And they ran into Zach Levi, among others, down there and had a great time.

01:53:22.080 So in any event, thanks to all of you for making that possible.

01:53:24.780 Thank you to the I Heart Voters and the I Heart Crews for thinking it up in the first place.

01:53:29.800 OK, enough about that.

01:53:30.960 We will be back tomorrow with Charlie Kirk.

01:53:33.380 Looking forward to asking him about going on Gavin Newsom's podcast.

01:53:37.460 Is that a good idea for conservatives?

01:53:41.360 Would love to hear from all of you before Charlie comes on.

01:53:45.600 Send me an email, would you?

01:53:47.100 Megan at MeganKelley.com.

01:53:49.460 Is it a good idea or not?

01:53:51.040 And then listen to our discussion with Charlie tomorrow.

01:53:53.480 See you then.

01:53:56.180 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:53:58.400 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:54:07.460 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

The Megyn Kelly Show - March 17, 2025

Dem Party Imploding, Michelle Obama's Failing Podcast, and Debating Khalil Deportation, with Glenn Greenwald ｜ Ep. 1028

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