The Megyn Kelly Show - DeSantis, Vivek, Haley, Scott - A Megyn Kelly Show Look at Past Interviews With GOP Candidates ｜ Ep. 626

00:00:00.480 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.840 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.120 With the GOP primary in full swing, we're going to take a look at a few of the contenders making waves.

00:00:21.780 My sit-down with Governor Ron DeSantis, Vivek Ramaswamy's recent appearance on the show,

00:00:26.520 plus some highlights of Nikki Haley and Tim Scott's appearances on this program.

00:00:31.160 And then tomorrow, the 800-pound gorilla.

00:00:35.220 As I like to say, my interview with Donald Trump, the first we've done in seven years, will air.

00:00:42.160 We're going to have a lot to talk about after that.

00:00:43.980 But today we begin with my interview of Governor Ron DeSantis from July and episode 597.

00:00:49.520 We got into everything, including a spirited back and forth about his positions on Disney

00:00:54.000 and whether he's punishing the company for exercising their free speech rights.

00:01:00.200 Is it government overreach?

00:01:02.080 Conservatives tend not to like big government.

00:01:04.540 Is he leaning in?

00:01:06.620 Plus, we got into the trans sport issue and abortion.

00:01:10.820 Take a look.

00:01:12.220 I'll tell you who the unsung heroes of COVID are, the frontline workers, of course.

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00:01:58.320 I saw you on CNN recently.

00:02:00.180 Now you're sitting with me.

00:02:01.280 I'm a right-leaning independent.

00:02:02.900 So is this a change in your media strategy?

00:02:05.040 And are we going to be seeing more of you out there?

00:02:06.940 Well, what I've typically done is, you know, I do media availabilities all the time.

00:02:11.220 I've probably done more press conferences as governor than any governor in history.

00:02:14.320 And all these people can come and ask me questions.

00:02:17.060 And so we're going to continue to do that on the campaign trail.

00:02:20.460 You know, we may sit down for some more interviews as we as we continue to go.

00:02:24.380 I think it's good.

00:02:25.200 I mean, I think people like to hear directly.

00:02:27.800 But the idea that I was not engaging with with hostile media, you know, that's just not been true.

00:02:32.880 In fact, that's kind of how I got known as governor.

00:02:34.960 You did as governor.

00:02:35.820 We were fighting the covid wars and all of that.

00:02:38.240 Yes.

00:02:38.520 But since you've actually declared, it seems like you've been in a conservative bunker.

00:02:41.680 Well, we've done, you know, we have a traveling press.

00:02:44.740 You know, we do we do the media availabilities.

00:02:46.900 We're going to continue to do that and probably do do more as time goes by.

00:02:50.760 Don't you think that would help you?

00:02:51.860 Don't you think having a viral moment with, you know, somebody in the far left who hates you is going to be helpful to you?

00:02:57.340 It could.

00:02:57.720 I mean, it definitely has helped me in the past.

00:02:59.760 And I think a lot of times they are in their own cocoon.

00:03:02.820 And so they're trying to propagate narratives.

00:03:05.200 But these narratives are easy to deconstruct.

00:03:07.660 And so if you just know your stuff, you know, you can you can handle that very easily.

00:03:11.580 All right.

00:03:12.040 Now, one of the criticisms I hear about you from people who watch and listen to my show is he's to establishment.

00:03:17.860 Right.

00:03:18.020 You've heard you've heard Trump say globalists, the rhino, all that.

00:03:21.300 He's to establishment.

00:03:22.300 They think that you're too close to the Paul Ryan, Karl Rove wing of the party and that if they elect you, you'll be too beholden to the big money donors inside the Republican Party.

00:03:33.080 The numbers for that is what?

00:03:34.700 Well, I mean, this is what my listeners feel, but I'll give you one.

00:03:38.560 Only 17 percent of your donations second quarter came from small dollar donors.

00:03:42.920 Eighty two percent of Trump's did.

00:03:44.660 So you can see why they're worried that you're going to be beholden to these GOP elites and not worried about the grassroots concerns.

00:03:51.080 So, first of all, I have not spoken to Paul Ryan since I've been governor.

00:03:54.680 So that's many, many years.

00:03:56.320 I've met Karl Rove once.

00:03:57.700 That's all just totally fabricated out of whole cloth.

00:04:01.240 I also have a record as governor of Florida.

00:04:03.720 I beat Disney on the parents' rights.

00:04:07.740 They're a pretty powerful financial institution in the state of Florida.

00:04:12.360 We stood up to the global elites, not just national establishment, international establishment against the COVID lockdowns.

00:04:20.640 We stood up.

00:04:21.660 I mean, I've restored the Everglades in Florida.

00:04:23.760 I had to stand up against the big sugar companies who had dominated Florida for a long time.

00:04:29.140 We've stood up to big pharma, not just by trying to get cheaper prescription drugs.

00:04:33.560 I actually have a grand jury impaneled to investigate misrepresentations that they made about the COVID-19 vaccine.

00:04:41.920 So, I've stood up to these people more than anybody else has done.

00:04:46.840 How many establishment Republicans would have sent illegal aliens to Martha's Vineyard? 0.98

00:04:52.280 They just wouldn't have done it.

00:04:53.780 So, I think a lot of that is fabricated.

00:04:57.480 And, look, I have the second best small dollar operation in Republican politics.

00:05:03.600 I mean, Trump was president.

00:05:05.020 So, I mean, of course he's going to have a better operation.

00:05:07.580 But ours is growing and growing.

00:05:09.320 And if you look at the new donors, the smaller ones, 30 percent of ours never donated to Republican politics before they came to me.

00:05:18.180 So, we're bringing more people in, and we're going to continue to do well with that.

00:05:21.880 The other question about Trump, and then I'll move on to some more substantive issues.

00:05:26.560 He says this is a disloyal action.

00:05:28.560 I know you've spoken to that before.

00:05:30.280 But he says specifically that you got elected governor because of him, that you were dead in the race, and that you, quote, came over and begged him for an endorsement with tears coming down from your eyes.

00:05:40.900 And do you believe that?

00:05:42.020 Is it true?

00:05:42.760 Do you believe that?

00:05:43.560 You tell me.

00:05:44.260 I mean, come on.

00:05:44.960 This was, you know, public.

00:05:47.080 I think we were on Air Force One.

00:05:48.300 I said, hey, I'm thinking about running.

00:05:49.440 Will you support me?

00:05:50.540 Will you tweet for me?

00:05:51.300 And he's like, yeah, I'll tweet for you.

00:05:52.380 And that was it.

00:05:52.980 And that was all that.

00:05:53.680 But here's the thing.

00:05:54.500 Politicians have to earn support.

00:05:58.640 Nobody's entitled to support.

00:06:00.640 I'm loyal to my family.

00:06:02.420 I'm loyal to our Constitution.

00:06:03.980 And I'm loyal to God.

00:06:05.460 That is where my loyalty goes.

00:06:07.300 I'll work with politicians to try to advance what I believe is in the best interests of Florida and the country.

00:06:13.980 But at the end of the day, it's about who can get the job done.

00:06:17.440 And that's how I view it.

00:06:18.440 And it's interesting.

00:06:19.500 He doesn't say that about his own vice president running against him.

00:06:22.980 He doesn't say that about his ambassador to the U.N. running against him.

00:06:26.980 He doesn't say that about other people he endorsed in the past who are now running against him.

00:06:31.480 He only says it about me because I think he construes me as the only threat to his winning the nomination.

00:06:37.180 What about to the people who say it's not your turn?

00:06:39.280 It's still his turn.

00:06:40.080 He got screwed out of his first term by Russiagate and the impeachment.

00:06:43.760 He got an unfair shot at it second time around because of all the election shenanigans.

00:06:48.720 And that he deserves to have this next vote.

00:06:51.820 We're a republic.

00:06:52.520 We're not a monarchy.

00:06:53.480 It's nobody's turn.

00:06:54.440 You have every right to put yourself forward.

00:06:56.980 You know, I believe at this point in history, 2024 is make or break for this country.

00:07:01.160 I'm not running to be president.

00:07:02.940 I'm running to do something as president for the country.

00:07:06.800 I think I'm the guy that can win the primary, win the general election, and then deliver

00:07:11.260 on all of these things and do it for two terms, which I think is really important.

00:07:15.920 Because if you look, Trump's first term, he did a lot of good things.

00:07:19.180 Biden reversed almost everything on day one.

00:07:21.940 I think you do need two terms for this stuff to really, really stick.

00:07:25.160 And so I think that I'm the only guy that fits that bill.

00:07:27.840 So I have a responsibility to step up and offer myself for service.

00:07:31.720 Let's talk about Florida for one minute.

00:07:33.400 The Department of Education is in the news this week.

00:07:36.040 They issued new guidelines when it comes to teaching things like slavery.

00:07:40.180 They are teaching its innumerable horrors.

00:07:43.080 That's clear.

00:07:44.280 But they are also requiring teachers to instruct that, quote, slaves develop skills, which in

00:07:49.440 some instances could be used for personal benefit.

00:07:51.700 As you know, the vice president made an emergency trip down here to Florida to say you were

00:07:55.940 whitewashing history, that these are lies.

00:07:58.680 Even GOP presidential candidate Will Hurd, who was black, weighed in saying slavery was

00:08:02.740 not a jobs program.

00:08:04.160 What's your response to all this?

00:08:05.380 Well, those standards were developed by African-American history scholars.

00:08:09.320 Many of them themselves were black.

00:08:11.560 And the point about developing skills was those skills were developed in spite of slavery, not

00:08:17.220 because of slavery.

00:08:18.280 And that's what they're doing.

00:08:19.320 And then they're saying they had skills postbellum.

00:08:21.720 Then they would use those skills as freedmen.

00:08:24.220 And that's exactly what happened.

00:08:25.500 And there's actually been other courses.

00:08:27.560 So the AP African-American history.

00:08:29.700 So we had a kerfuffle on that earlier this year because they there was a lot of the course

00:08:34.720 was good.

00:08:35.260 But then they had part of it that was like Marxist studies.

00:08:37.720 And we said, no, you know, we don't want the indoctrination.

00:08:40.020 So we got attacked because we stood up against that.

00:08:42.440 You won that.

00:08:43.120 We won it.

00:08:43.660 But in that course, they had the same basic teaching point about the skills that were

00:08:50.840 developed.

00:08:51.300 So and this is not something that was just made up out of whole cloth by our working

00:08:55.520 working group.

00:08:56.280 This is something that people have been talking about.

00:08:58.460 And this was all done in public.

00:08:59.800 It wasn't political.

00:09:00.800 Like we didn't tell them what to do.

00:09:02.300 We said, you know, we're not doing critical race.

00:09:04.500 We're not doing a political agenda.

00:09:06.040 Just do the facts.

00:09:07.040 And they did a very thorough job.

00:09:08.980 I mean, if you look at all the things they're talking about.

00:09:11.360 But what do you think of Kamala Harris coming down here and try to tell everybody that you're 1.00

00:09:14.360 lying, that you've decided to lie to the American public about slavery?

00:09:17.540 Well, the White House has been obsessed with us in Florida from the time they took office.

00:09:22.520 Clearly, they view us as a threat.

00:09:24.780 And so anything that they can do to try to ding us.

00:09:27.400 But I think in this case, people looked at it and they could tell she was lying and she

00:09:31.860 was demagoguing it.

00:09:32.960 I mean, this stuff was vetted.

00:09:34.660 This was all public.

00:09:36.100 People could do comments.

00:09:37.480 Everyone was praising what a thorough job they did.

00:09:40.620 Then all of a sudden, they cherry pick something, take it out of context, and then try to demagogue

00:09:45.520 it because if you look at the entire standards, there is no way you can view those standards

00:09:51.000 and not come to any other conclusion that they are very, very honest about the injustice

00:09:56.420 of slavery.

00:09:57.580 And that's time and time again, you see through that.

00:10:00.320 So I think the thing that's instructive, though, is, okay, you have Harris doing this

00:10:04.560 and Biden's White House.

00:10:06.400 Corporate media, if they're really truth tellers, if they're about holding the powerful accountable,

00:10:12.200 they would have pushed back on this.

00:10:13.780 They would have said, wait a minute, that's not true.

00:10:15.900 They would have had Dr. Allen on to shoot it down. 0.60

00:10:19.120 And instead, they try to concoct the narrative even further and push it.

00:10:24.100 So I think people like Harris do it because they know they can get away with it with a

00:10:27.740 lot of our corporate press.

00:10:29.060 We had Dr. Allen on and he said the teachers union was sitting there, lying there like snakes

00:10:34.040 in the grass at these meetings, not saying anything, not objecting to any of this until

00:10:37.940 after it became a controversy.

00:10:40.420 All right, let's shift and talk about Disney.

00:10:42.120 You mentioned them just a bit.

00:10:43.560 You, in my view, are pretty quick to use the power of the state against certain corporations

00:10:48.620 who you don't like these woke corporations.

00:10:51.080 Disney, after an attack to your Parental Rights and Education Act.

00:10:54.280 Anheuser-Busch recently for hurting the pension investments you said of Floridians with the

00:10:58.660 whole Bud Light debacle.

00:11:00.740 Much as the base is angry at these woke corporations, and I get it, I know you get it.

00:11:04.560 But aren't you doing the very thing to these companies that conservatives are mad at left-wing

00:11:10.380 leaders for doing, using government to punish citizens for political wrong think?

00:11:15.420 No, not at all.

00:11:16.020 So take Anheuser-Busch.

00:11:17.200 I mean, we're not punishing them.

00:11:19.240 They departed from business practices by indulging in social activism.

00:11:24.280 That has caused a huge problem for their company, and their stock price has gone down.

00:11:29.600 Well, our pension fund in Florida holds Anheuser-Busch InBev stock.

00:11:35.140 So it's actually hurt teachers.

00:11:37.360 It's hurt cops. 0.75

00:11:38.500 It hurts firefighters who depend on that pension fund.

00:11:42.020 And so-

00:11:42.380 Didn't you support the boycott against them?

00:11:44.680 No, I did.

00:11:45.600 But that's just as a personal thing.

00:11:46.980 But I mean, we didn't have the state government necessarily putting power about it.

00:11:51.220 But as an American, I said, I'm not doing Anheuser, I'm not doing Bud Light.

00:11:55.260 But for this, we're defending the people that are beneficiaries of the pension.

00:12:00.240 When you go, look, the wokeness, yes, it's annoying. 1.00

00:12:03.680 Yes, when they're trying to throw an agenda down your throat, you don't like it.

00:12:06.780 But it does have an impact on the economy.

00:12:09.680 It has an impact on people who hold stock.

00:12:12.600 And that's not just rich people.

00:12:14.220 That's those people.

00:12:15.300 So with InBev, they departed from their fiduciary duty.

00:12:19.060 And so we're investigating the state.

00:12:21.240 I'm not in favor of the Bud Light thing at all.

00:12:23.180 But how can you say they departed from their fiduciary duty?

00:12:25.420 They sent a beer can to this very controversial person, which upset the consumers.

00:12:29.520 And the consumers had their say.

00:12:31.040 But how is that a departure from there?

00:12:32.700 And how does the state get involved in that?

00:12:34.400 How is that something that is helping their shareholders or helping their companies value?

00:12:40.620 But how is that for you to weigh in on?

00:12:42.600 Because I have people in Florida that were injured by the company's decline as a result of that.

00:12:48.300 These are people that rely on the pension.

00:12:51.840 Disney is a different issue than this.

00:12:56.040 But we have to say companies should do their job.

00:12:59.400 If they depart from that and they harm people, then you have an opportunity to potentially have recourse.

00:13:05.280 Now, Disney was an issue where they came after the state of Florida when we were doing fortifying parental rights, saying at that time it was K through three, no gender ideology or any of that in the schools.

00:13:18.900 And to me, that was not a huge leap.

00:13:22.200 I mean, that's common sense.

00:13:23.360 Why would you want to tell a second grader that they may have been born in the wrong body?

00:13:27.080 That is happening around this country.

00:13:28.740 And we said in Florida, we're not.

00:13:30.060 So they came in against us.

00:13:32.020 And they're very powerful in Florida.

00:13:33.760 They usually get whatever they want.

00:13:35.420 So we stood up and we said, no, we're going to do what's best for students and parents.

00:13:39.840 We're not going to tout out of Disney.

00:13:41.760 Then after I signed the bill, they put out a statement saying they were going to make it a mission to see that the bill was repealed or overturned in court.

00:13:50.140 So they said they were taking their corporate resources to basically attack parents' rights in Florida and overturn a court state policy.

00:13:57.620 So we had to then make a decision.

00:13:59.440 And the legislature started saying, well, wait a minute.

00:14:02.400 Disney is getting these benefits that they've had for a long time.

00:14:05.260 Maybe we should reevaluate it.

00:14:06.680 And then when you looked at what they got, unbelievable arrangement that they had that no other individual or no other company in the entire state enjoyed.

00:14:16.020 So Florida, for many decades ago, was joined at the hip with this one company.

00:14:20.720 They started going down the road of sexualizing children. 1.00

00:14:24.080 We just could not be joined at the hip with a company that was doing that.

00:14:28.420 That's antithetical to our values in Florida.

00:14:31.440 So what we said is, you don't get to control your own government.

00:14:34.620 You don't get to be exempt from laws and taxes.

00:14:37.160 You're going to live under the same laws as everybody else.

00:14:39.560 You're going to be treated like SeaWorld.

00:14:40.880 You're going to be treated like Universal.

00:14:42.400 So that's actually good policy.

00:14:44.240 That's taking away corporate welfare and putting everybody on a level playing field.

00:14:48.820 But we could not be, I mean, I couldn't look in the mirror as a parent of a 6, 5, and 3-year-old,

00:14:55.000 knowing that this company was getting benefits from, and these are not benefits I gave them.

00:15:00.100 And this is many, many decades ago, that they were doing that, given the direction that they're going with kids.

00:15:05.480 I draw the line at protecting kids.

00:15:07.720 We are going to protect our kids, and we will take on big corporations to do so.

00:15:11.840 So are you suggesting you would have done this irrespective of them criticizing and fighting your Parents and Education Act?

00:15:17.160 I mean, that this had nothing to do with their stance on your law?

00:15:20.120 Well, obviously, they're supporting sexualizing kids in Florida schools.

00:15:24.120 I mean, they were putting their corporate weight behind ensuring that that could happen.

00:15:28.220 So, of course, that was a factor.

00:15:29.660 But another factor.

00:15:30.280 But that's an admission that they were punished by you, in part, by the state for their political viewpoint.

00:15:35.440 It's not a punishment.

00:15:36.600 So that was part of it.

00:15:38.020 Then they had the Zoom videos that were put out where these Disney executives were acknowledging

00:15:42.920 that they wanted to inject the sexualization into their programming.

00:15:47.040 Yes, I understand.

00:15:47.740 That's different, and that's less controversial.

00:15:49.460 Well, but I mean, but that was part of the decision where the legislature, the support to maintain this arrangement just collapsed.

00:15:57.260 And we were in a situation where he said, okay, this is a company that's pursuing this direction with respect to children.

00:16:04.660 That is fundamentally hostile to the state of Florida's policies.

00:16:08.760 Okay, but how is it not viewpoint discrimination?

00:16:11.440 We talked about 303 Creative, you and I, privately, about the U.S. Supreme Court case that just came down.

00:16:16.740 They held in that case, they reminded us, that citizens in this country are free to speak as they wish and not as the government demands.

00:16:23.420 So why can't Disney oppose your law?

00:16:25.920 They can.

00:16:26.220 And why can't they promote this agenda in their viewpoint?

00:16:29.160 They can.

00:16:29.720 Without being punished by the state?

00:16:31.340 They're not being punished.

00:16:32.840 We're just simply removing special benefits that they have had that really weren't justifiable.

00:16:37.840 They were worse off when it was done than they were before they spoke out.

00:16:41.340 Well, no.

00:16:41.860 I mean, it was, first of all, we didn't actually do anything to Disney.

00:16:44.760 There was a government that had been in place that they had effectively corrupted, which was not the way it was supposed to be, by the way, if you look at how this started in 68.

00:16:54.080 So we changed the governing structure, which really didn't even impact them directly.

00:16:59.400 They're just indirectly, they don't like it because, you know, they don't get to call the shots anymore.

00:17:03.260 But they are not entitled to corporate welfare.

00:17:06.040 You do not have a constitutional right to corporate welfare.

00:17:08.380 I know that, but it's not about an entitlement.

00:17:10.200 It's not about entitlement.

00:17:11.100 If I go to my boss and I say, you sexually harassed me, and then suddenly he reduces my salary from $200,000 to $100,000, that's retaliation.

00:17:20.360 I am worse off.

00:17:21.400 And it's not a defense to say, well, everybody else at the company was getting $100,000.

00:17:25.320 You've reduced my circumstances.

00:17:26.600 You've punished me.

00:17:28.020 No, but that's an employer-employee relationship.

00:17:30.740 I think that that's much different.

00:17:31.800 But this is the state taking away a benefit.

00:17:33.780 But your position is basically that Florida should be forced to subsidize Disney regardless of how it's going to use those subsidies so that they can weaponize the subsidies they get from the state and turn it against state policy.

00:17:48.420 Why would we want to subsidize that behavior? 0.96

00:17:50.380 Why should Florida taxpayers have to underwrite that?

00:17:53.300 But I don't want a President Gavin Newsom doing this to conservative companies or companies who have a more conservative viewpoint.

00:17:59.440 Well, here's what I would say.

00:18:00.460 I don't think there's any arrangement in America that mirrored the arrangement Disney had in Florida for many, many decades.

00:18:08.140 I mean, I think it was a unique situation where we just could not justify how could you be exempt from laws that every other company in business has to follow an individual?

00:18:18.400 How could you be exempt from taxes?

00:18:20.140 How could you rack up municipal debt on your own when they didn't have it?

00:18:24.860 So they had powers to build their own nuclear power plant.

00:18:28.560 They had extraterritorial eminent domain.

00:18:31.140 I get it, I get it.

00:18:31.400 They had a lot of that.

00:18:32.600 If you lived in a subdivision outside of Disney, they actually had the right to seize your property if they wanted to expand beyond the district.

00:18:41.480 So this was something that was just totally, totally unjustifiable.

00:18:45.320 But it lived on in Florida for many, many decades because they were just so powerful.

00:18:49.800 But take apart all of the stuff with the sexualization of children, all that.

00:18:54.680 Just on the merits, was this an arrangement that was justifiable?

00:18:58.740 And the answer is no.

00:19:00.360 But no one really questioned it in the legislature because they enjoyed a lot of political sway.

00:19:05.440 Let's move on.

00:19:07.100 What's your plan to protect women and girls from men who claim they are trans trying to get into our spaces and our sports?

00:19:14.240 Well, in Florida, we've done all of that.

00:19:17.340 So girls' sports, women's sports is protected. 0.96

00:19:20.540 Men can't be injecting themselves into those competitions.

00:19:24.200 It takes away opportunities for girls and for women athletes. 0.73

00:19:27.320 And we did that years ago here as governor.

00:19:30.160 We've also protected the locker rooms and the bathrooms so that men are not going into women's very sensitive places.

00:19:38.200 And I think that that should be the rule, period.

00:19:41.940 We will look within the constitutional authority of the federal government.

00:19:45.820 We'll look to do the same for women's sports and those issues nationally. 0.89

00:19:49.780 Title IX?

00:19:50.460 Yeah, I think so.

00:19:52.460 There was an ad recently released that was controversial online that portrayed you as a warrior against these LGBTQ issues.

00:20:00.940 And Trump is soft on them.

00:20:02.660 The New York Times reports that you were actually behind that ad, your campaign.

00:20:05.640 You definitely promoted it and defended it.

00:20:08.200 Do you think that Trump is soft on this issue, the issue of trans rights versus women's rights?

00:20:14.080 Well, I think that what was pointed out there was he had been a pioneer in injecting men into women's competitions.

00:20:21.300 Because he was doing that with beauty pageants way, way back in the day, 10 years ago or whatnot.

00:20:27.100 And then he's also opposed things like protecting locker rooms and bathrooms when he was running.

00:20:32.320 He said North Carolina shouldn't have done that when they did it.

00:20:35.140 So that, I think, is not where our voters are on that.

00:20:38.320 I think our voters believe that standing up for women and girls means protecting their right to compete with integrity and protecting things like bathrooms and locker rooms.

00:20:48.340 And so he just had been very clear on that issue.

00:20:51.260 And I don't think that's where our voters are.

00:20:52.820 Do you think he may have changed?

00:20:54.560 I mean, 15 versus now is a lifetime on the issue of the trans rights thing.

00:20:59.000 You know, I don't know.

00:21:00.140 I mean, I think that, you know, it wasn't just that, you know, he had kind of a flippant opinion on it.

00:21:05.740 I mean, you know, he was really one of the leaders in making this a big issue culturally and nationally.

00:21:11.480 Speaking of that campaign ad, one of the complaints I've heard about the DeSantis team is they're too online.

00:21:18.760 There was the Twitter spaces launch, yes.

00:21:20.540 But it was it's more about the petty Twitter squabbles that we see some connected with your campaign having that will take up three days of the news cycle that don't really amount to anything substantive for the voters in Iowa and elsewhere.

00:21:33.760 Is that a fair point?

00:21:35.020 So, look, we have people that are doing this rapid response.

00:21:38.380 I'm not putting my time into it at all.

00:21:40.320 I mean, you know, they're going and going back and forth.

00:21:42.920 You know, there's kind of a battle that does online.

00:21:45.000 I am not somebody who's who's following that very closely.

00:21:48.240 It's just not my cup of tea.

00:21:50.000 And so I'm following more about, you know, what's happening.

00:21:52.380 You're the commander.

00:21:52.860 No, I get it.

00:21:53.660 But I mean, but but, you know, we have people shooting at us, too, online every single day.

00:21:57.960 I mean, the fact that you asked about people like Paul Ryan, you know, that was that's all a manufactured online controversy instead of attacks that have no basis in reality.

00:22:08.860 And so there is need to kind of push back on some of this stuff.

00:22:13.000 So I wouldn't say it's too online.

00:22:14.820 I think that there's a place for that.

00:22:16.860 But ultimately, you know, the people in Iowa and New Hampshire, you know, they're not following the latest Twitter war.

00:22:21.840 They're following what's going on in their lives.

00:22:23.700 And I'm very cognizant of that.

00:22:25.000 You recently signed a six week abortion ban in Florida that is popular with Republican voters.

00:22:32.140 The majority support that.

00:22:33.880 But you haven't yet said whether you would support doing that at the federal level.

00:22:38.280 Will you say so now?

00:22:39.780 So our bill in Florida protects unborn when there's a detectable heartbeat.

00:22:44.840 You know, the heartbeat bill is something that is rooted in science and medicine.

00:22:48.840 And this is the most significant pro-life protections that we've ever done in the state of Florida in the modern history.

00:22:55.600 So I've been a pro-life governor.

00:22:57.480 I'll be a pro-life president.

00:22:59.180 And I will come down on the side of life.

00:23:01.640 We are running on doing things that I know I can accomplish.

00:23:04.980 So we're going to end the abortion tourism that is in the military.

00:23:09.720 It's an egregious waste of taxpayer dollars.

00:23:12.240 No funding for abortion.

00:23:14.380 We're going to ensure that the Supreme Court remains so that Dobbs is not overturned.

00:23:19.260 And I'm going to be a leader with the bully pulpit, you know, to help local communities and states advance the cause of life.

00:23:26.360 But I really believe right now in our society, it's really a bottom-up movement.

00:23:30.520 And that's where we've had most success, Iowa, South Carolina, Florida.

00:23:34.240 And I think you're going to continue to see a lot of good battles there.

00:23:37.140 So you're not in support of a federal law.

00:23:39.620 I'll always come down on the side of life.

00:23:42.220 And, you know, I'm proud to be pro-life and I'll be a pro-life president.

00:23:45.900 But if you do that, I mean, if you sign a federal law, you know, making a six-week standard, the law across the country,

00:23:53.220 aren't we just then going to get a Democrat administration with a Democrat Congress that reverses or that codifies Roe and back and forth?

00:23:59.240 Why isn't it just a state's rights issue?

00:24:01.440 Well, clearly the states have.

00:24:03.120 I mean, I think the states have the primary jurisdiction of it.

00:24:06.380 They do, but if there's a federal law, that's going to change.

00:24:08.460 I think there is a federal interest, but I think the reality is that, you know, the country's divided on it.

00:24:14.380 You know, you're not going to see Wisconsin mimic what Texas has.

00:24:18.280 Which is an argument against a federal law.

00:24:19.740 You're not going to see Pennsylvania mimic what Georgia has.

00:24:22.720 Well, but I mean, we're divided.

00:24:24.780 I mean, are these things like on the potential thing?

00:24:29.180 I haven't seen Congress move that.

00:24:30.800 I don't have much confidence that Congress is going to do anything meaningful in this regard.

00:24:35.520 And so in a federalist system, you know, you have different opinions and that stuff gets filtered out.

00:24:40.820 But clearly right now you are going to see different states go in different directions.

00:24:45.460 And I understand that.

00:24:47.120 Again, you can find the full show on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:24:51.000 It's episode 597.

00:24:53.720 We'll be right back.

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00:26:03.520 Now, Nikki Haley, who is having a bit of a moment in the GOP primary right now.

00:26:08.140 I mean, we know the gorillas first, but she's having a moment amongst the B tier. 0.95

00:26:12.220 By most polls, she has gained the most ground.

00:26:15.200 After the first debate, she came on this program in July, episode 586.

00:26:20.920 In this part of the interview, we talk through NATO and Ukraine and other foreign policy stories, as well as parental rights.

00:26:27.460 Take a look.

00:26:29.100 Let's talk about NATO and Ukraine, because this has become an issue.

00:26:31.780 Should Ukraine join NATO?

00:26:33.260 This has, of course, been the thing Vladimir Putin has been pushing against now for decades.

00:26:38.440 He doesn't want the expansion of NATO at all, and he certainly doesn't want Ukraine in it.

00:26:42.440 And Joe Biden said it's not time.

00:26:44.200 I mean, I think everybody agrees right now in the midst of a war, it's not time.

00:26:47.000 But Joe Biden was saying they're not ready.

00:26:49.180 And I heard you on Cavuto yesterday saying there's no reason Ukraine should not be part of NATO.

00:26:53.960 And this, of course, makes you more hawkish on this issue than some of your competitors in the GOP race, because the pushback on it, as you know, Ambassador, would be World War III, right?

00:27:06.020 That it's extremely provocative to Vladimir Putin, even more so than we have been, to actually make them a part of Ukraine, a part of NATO.

00:27:15.260 We would have no choice but to defend them in further provocations down the line if they got into further skirmishes with Putin.

00:27:23.680 And it could literally lead to World War III with a nuclear power.

00:27:26.680 Actually, I think it's the opposite.

00:27:29.960 This is about preventing war.

00:27:32.240 And this is also about ending this war quickly.

00:27:35.220 We don't need this to drag out.

00:27:37.120 And the problem is, and I dealt with the Russians at the United Nations, they love to intimidate. 1.00

00:27:42.080 They love to scare, and they hope that that helps them get what they want.

00:27:46.640 Let's be clear.

00:27:47.600 Article 5, if you were to allow Ukraine into NATO, we would not have to do anything more than we're already doing.

00:27:54.940 You don't have to put troops on the ground.

00:27:56.660 You don't have to give them cash.

00:27:58.060 We are already working with our allies to give them equipment and ammunition.

00:28:02.340 And not only that, it sends a message to Putin.

00:28:04.940 Listen, NATO is a 70-year success story in the fact that Russia has never invaded a country that is a member of NATO.

00:28:13.200 The only countries that Russia has invaded, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, they are not members of NATO.

00:28:21.020 He's not going to do that because he doesn't want the wrath of NATO.

00:28:24.800 Actually saying, yes, we're going to continue to defend Ukraine, and yes, we're going to allow them in NATO,

00:28:30.220 would get him to see that he better figure out a way out now.

00:28:34.480 And we'd get him to realize he's got to find an exit strategy.

00:28:37.860 That's what we want for Putin.

00:28:39.280 Because keep in mind, this war is not about Ukraine.

00:28:42.340 This is about the fact that Russia invaded a free country.

00:28:45.660 And so, one, it's a win that we got Finland and Sweden in there.

00:28:49.700 But look at Ukraine.

00:28:50.960 Ukraine has shown that they are a force when it comes to military, when it comes to will, when it comes to might, and when it comes to strategy.

00:28:58.780 And so, you look back at where we are, Russia had gained 27% of Ukraine's territory.

00:29:07.140 Now, Ukraine has got it back down to 12%.

00:29:10.120 We know Putin's hit rock bottom when he's getting drones from Iran and missiles from North Korea.

00:29:15.740 They've raised the draft age in Russia to 65.

00:29:19.200 And then this monster of a military that he created with the Wagner Group, you know, now suddenly turned on the guy that thought he was invincible. 0.93

00:29:27.660 And now he realizes he's actually vulnerable.

00:29:30.640 The strength of NATO and those countries to say, you know what, we do want Ukraine to be a part of this,

00:29:36.360 would have sent a massive red flag to Putin that, oh, no, now they're going in there, too.

00:29:41.780 There's nothing he fears more than the alliance that is NATO.

00:29:46.240 And we have to, you know, I think that it was a missed opportunity altogether because we actually could have worked on ending this war quicker had they gone and been strong on, yes, we're going to want Ukraine into NATO.

00:29:56.440 They've shown that they deserve to be there and that they have the will to defend freedom in this country, in their country.

00:30:04.140 Prior to that announcement by the Biden administration, it sounds like you think they've been handling this war well.

00:30:08.000 That Ukraine has been handling it well.

00:30:13.120 That Joe Biden has been that Joe Biden's been doing the making the right moves when it comes to Ukraine from your own description that you just said.

00:30:20.220 I don't think he's done it well.

00:30:21.520 I actually don't think we would have gone to war had Biden done what he was supposed to.

00:30:25.660 Keep in mind, Russia surrounded Ukraine a whole year before they invaded.

00:30:31.480 That was the time he could have prevented war. 0.95

00:30:34.220 That's what he could have done.

00:30:35.300 Trump had arranged for equipment and ammunition to go to Ukraine in March and then again in May of that year before he invaded.

00:30:44.420 Biden pulled that because he didn't want to provoke Putin.

00:30:48.180 There again, you missed the opportunity.

00:30:50.760 What they should have done was shown that we were going to have the backs of Ukraine so that it would prevent Putin from doing that.

00:30:57.240 But the biggest mistake that Biden made was none of this, whether it's Iran building a bomb, North Korea testing ballistic missiles, whether it's Russia invading Ukraine, whether it's China on the march.

00:31:09.560 None of that would have happened had we not had that debacle in Afghanistan. 1.00

00:31:13.900 My husband's a combat veteran.

00:31:15.620 He deployed to Afghanistan.

00:31:17.100 The idea that he and his military brothers and sisters had to watch America leave Bagram Air Force Base in the middle of the night without telling our allies who stood shoulder to shoulder with us for decades because we asked them to be there.

00:31:31.840 Think about what that told our friends.

00:31:34.000 But more importantly, think about what that told our enemies.

00:31:36.700 It was after that, that Russia went on aggression with Ukraine.

00:31:41.240 It was after that, that China started really getting aggressive with Taiwan.

00:31:44.780 It was after that.

00:31:45.680 But I'm trying to get to what would you do differently if you became president instead of Joe Biden?

00:31:50.440 What would you do differently with respect to Ukraine?

00:31:52.580 Because all those rollbacks of the Russian, you know, advance and advancement in Ukraine happened under Biden's watch.

00:31:59.360 And so what kind of differences would we see toward Ukraine if you were to become president?

00:32:03.840 First, I wouldn't send any cash straight out to Ukraine.

00:32:07.720 I don't think you should do that to any country.

00:32:10.100 We should know exactly how the money is being spent and do it accountability.

00:32:14.160 That's the first thing.

00:32:14.980 The second thing is I would commit that we don't need to put troops on the ground.

00:32:19.020 And the third thing is I would work more closely with our allies to make sure we finish this.

00:32:24.660 And that is making sure they all step up.

00:32:27.300 They give equipment.

00:32:28.380 They give ammunition that we have strategy and that we focus on more than just NATO.

00:32:32.800 Keep in mind, Saudi Arabia just sent Ukraine money to defend themselves.

00:32:37.160 We need to bring in more allies than just NATO.

00:32:40.220 And the biggest thing is we need to make sure that through all of that, we never forget that China is watching every single ounce of this.

00:32:49.360 And they said before the Olympics, when they held hands with Putin, that they were unlimited partners.

00:32:54.600 They showed up after the Russian plane hit the U.S. drone by showing back up in Russia.

00:33:00.740 We need to remember a win for Russia is a win for China. 0.97

00:33:04.480 China has watched every company that left Russia.

00:33:07.420 They've watched every country that's helped Ukraine.

00:33:09.780 They've watched what equipment and ammunition we've sent.

00:33:12.360 It is strength, Megan, that goes in there.

00:33:14.520 And so I would make sure everybody is pulling their weight.

00:33:18.040 Everybody's paying their defense dues.

00:33:19.940 And everybody understands this is a war that we have to finish.

00:33:23.000 This is not the time to take the foot off the gas.

00:33:25.440 This is the time to keep the foot on the gas.

00:33:28.600 Republicans don't feel that way.

00:33:29.840 In March of 2022, 51 percent of Republicans deemed Russians invasion a major threat to U.S. interests.

00:33:36.260 Today, it's only 28 percent of Republicans, according to a recent pupil, who see this as a major threat to our interests.

00:33:42.520 So the Republican Party is turning on this war.

00:33:46.640 This, as the Biden administration, sends cluster munitions to Ukraine, which have been banned by over 100 countries, including very close American allies like the U.K., like Canada.

00:33:56.860 They don't like these cluster munitions that basically open up a bunch of grenades on a on a country that could then explode later when children are playing in the field.

00:34:04.440 Children are playing in the field and so on.

00:34:06.000 Do you support cluster munitions, despite the fact that Republicans are waning in their support for this war?

00:34:10.140 Well, first, I want to answer the first premise you said about Republicans.

00:34:15.180 You know, keep in mind that dictators always tell you exactly what they're going to do.

00:34:21.100 You know, China said they were going to invade Hong Kong and or China said they were going to take Hong Kong.

00:34:26.120 They did. Russia said they were going to invade Ukraine.

00:34:28.360 We watched them.

00:34:29.500 China said that Taiwan is next.

00:34:31.160 We better believe them.

00:34:32.160 Russia said that after they take Ukraine, that Poland and the Baltics are next.

00:34:36.380 And that is World War Three.

00:34:38.360 That is what we are trying to prevent.

00:34:40.500 And so this is not about what politics is saying.

00:34:43.920 This is about the fact that that same mentality of us saying we shouldn't defend Ukraine is the exact same mentality that you the Europeans had when they talked about letting Nord Stream to go through.

00:34:55.540 When they allow when Germany got really close and and allowed themselves to get close to Russia. 0.72

00:35:01.660 You can never let an enemy advance at all, because if you're naive and you think, oh, but we're going to provoke them.

00:35:08.740 That's the wrong mentality because they will go and pull the rug out from under you.

00:35:13.280 And we can't be so naive that this isn't going to happen later.

00:35:16.500 The biggest issue with Russia winning is China's aggression.

00:35:20.180 And China has been preparing for war with America forever.

00:35:24.200 We see that in their infiltration.

00:35:25.820 We see that with the threats that they're doing to us from the outside.

00:35:29.280 And we've got to make sure that a win for Ukraine sends the biggest message to China as they go in and invade Taiwan. 0.87

00:35:35.980 When it comes to the cluster munitions that you were talking about, America has never banned cluster munitions.

00:35:42.460 The reason that people tend to be concerned about them is because cluster munitions can have like duds to them.

00:35:48.280 And those can, you know, if messed with, can go and explode later.

00:35:53.260 But Russia is using cluster munitions on Ukraine and has been this entire time.

00:35:58.540 If Ukraine says that they want cluster munitions, they have shown that they do whatever they have to to protect the Ukrainian people.

00:36:04.680 And if they feel like that's going to help them advance, then, you know, I have no problem with them getting cluster munitions.

00:36:10.500 On the subject of naivete, President Trump said he would settle the Ukraine-Russia conflict in 24 hours.

00:36:16.640 Is he being naive?

00:36:18.820 Oh, I just don't think it's being realistic.

00:36:21.020 I mean, the only way you settle it in 24 hours is if you give Putin something that he wants.

00:36:24.820 And it's not realistic even to do that.

00:36:27.040 Let's be clear.

00:36:28.300 This war, if we wanted to end it today, all you have to do is Russia has to get out.

00:36:33.680 Russia has to get out. 0.90

00:36:34.680 Ukraine didn't do anything.

00:36:36.000 Russia went into this freedom-loving country. 0.84

00:36:38.200 So, no, I don't think it's realistic to say that you can settle this in 24 hours.

00:36:43.920 But I will tell you what would have settled this really quickly is if the U.S. and Biden and NATO would have been stronger on the fact that, yes, they are going to let Ukraine into NATO.

00:36:55.660 Because, one, that would have encouraged Zelensky to start being able to say to his people, look, we're going to be able to defend ourselves going forward.

00:37:03.260 And he would start looking at an exit strategy.

00:37:05.800 And Putin would have started looking at an exit strategy.

00:37:08.320 We are trying to end this quickly.

00:37:09.660 We're not doing that right now.

00:37:10.460 And we're trying to prevent further war.

00:37:12.280 That's the focus.

00:37:13.680 Let's talk about China for one second.

00:37:15.100 Our Treasury Secretary, Janet Yellen, was over there meeting with senior Chinese officials and she bowed repeatedly.

00:37:21.020 She bowed repeatedly.

00:37:22.560 Independent protocol experts, I mean, the Democratic university professors who studied this for a living, said, we don't do that.

00:37:29.020 What is she doing, Ambassador?

00:37:31.480 And what did you make of the bowing?

00:37:34.460 It was it was just it.

00:37:36.500 Again, we look weak.

00:37:38.000 I mean, you look.

00:37:38.860 Blinken went hat in hand to China. 0.59

00:37:41.620 They said it was a great meeting, which means China got something out of it.

00:37:45.040 You've got, you know, Janet Yellen goes and says, oh, we should get closer to China.

00:37:48.940 So they roll out the red carpet and then they go and say, oh, but we scolded China because she said this shouldn't be a winner take all scenario. 0.96

00:37:56.700 This should be a situation where we can play by fair rules.

00:38:01.600 This should be a situation where we see each other's competitors.

00:38:04.480 That right there shows that you don't understand China.

00:38:07.640 China lives by winner take all scenario. 0.93

00:38:10.600 They've never played by fair rules.

00:38:13.080 They don't see us as a competitor.

00:38:14.800 They see us as an enemy.

00:38:16.040 And if you want to know how, look at how they have already infiltrated our country and how the lack of any sort of response to this has been.

00:38:25.100 They have bought up 400,000 acres of U.S. soil, most recently near Grand Forks Air Force Base, where our most sensitive drone technology is.

00:38:33.560 They have continued to send fentanyl to the cartel.

00:38:36.780 They know exactly what they're doing as Americans get killed.

00:38:40.020 They are infiltrating our universities by sending millions of dollars as they go through that.

00:38:44.960 They have Chinese front companies lobbying our Congress on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party.

00:38:51.560 There are items, sensitive technology items that we should not be sending China because it helps them build up their military. 1.00

00:38:59.780 But instead, Commerce Department has that list.

00:39:02.940 But Biden approved 70 percent of those requests to go to China last year.

00:39:08.040 Then you go and you look at their military.

00:39:10.020 Here's the question.

00:39:10.700 Should she have bowed?

00:39:12.280 And do you think it's indicative of the Biden administration's approach towards China writ large?

00:39:16.920 No. And I don't think Biden has handled China at all well.

00:39:21.460 No, she shouldn't have bowed.

00:39:22.980 No, you go at a position of strength.

00:39:25.320 She should have asked about all the infiltration they're doing in our country and asking them what they're going to do about it and made them answer for that.

00:39:32.320 But none of the Biden administration has made them accountable for anything from COVID to fentanyl to stealing our intellectual property to a spy center going off the coast of Florida where they will soon send military troops.

00:39:45.240 We can't have this happen.

00:39:46.920 And they have not handled this well at all.

00:39:49.440 Yes.

00:39:49.960 The spy balloon was just one of the most prominent, visible examples of all of that.

00:39:54.460 All right.

00:39:54.580 Let's talk.

00:39:55.020 It was embarrassing.

00:39:56.680 And some GOP politics.

00:39:58.980 This jumped out at me.

00:40:00.280 You were being asked about Ron DeSantis's approach to the indoctrination of children in schools with sexual talk and gender talk and so on.

00:40:09.580 And he's basically said with the misnamed Don't Say Gay Bill, we're not having that.

00:40:14.460 We're not going to talk about sexuality.

00:40:16.240 We're not going to talk about gender ideology at the young grades.

00:40:20.440 It was originally till third grade.

00:40:22.180 And then the lawmakers down there expanded it through 12. 0.65

00:40:25.280 You said before that you would go further than DeSantis.

00:40:27.900 What would you have done?

00:40:28.640 So I was saying prior to when it was only at third grade that I didn't think it went far enough.

00:40:35.460 You know, we should not be talking to our children.

00:40:38.120 You should not have school bureaucrats talking to our children about gender, period. 1.00

00:40:43.200 You know, when I was in school, you didn't have sex ed until seventh grade.

00:40:47.240 And even when you had it, you had to have a parent's permission for them to even be able to talk to you about that.

00:40:53.480 And my parents wouldn't sign it.

00:40:55.360 So I was the uncool kid in the classroom next door.

00:40:58.220 This is not the job of schools to educate our kids on gender.

00:41:02.760 That is what the parents should do.

00:41:04.400 So what I was saying is he didn't go far enough when they did it in third grade.

00:41:07.620 They shouldn't be talking about gender at all in schools.

00:41:11.140 Let the parents handle that.

00:41:12.780 Education should be about math, science, history, civics, those types of things.

00:41:17.640 I mean, you can look at how our terrible education scores and realize the last thing we need to be talking about gender. 0.97

00:41:24.900 When you've got 67 percent of eighth graders prior to COVID that were not proficient in reading or math.

00:41:31.760 You had 80 plus percent two weeks ago that said they're not proficient in history or civics.

00:41:36.620 And now last week they say our 13 year olds are at the lowest levels of reading and math that we've seen in decades.

00:41:42.780 And you want to talk to them about gender.

00:41:45.640 I mean, that's just not what American parents want.

00:41:48.520 We have one job.

00:41:49.580 That's not the job we want schools to do. 0.99

00:41:51.380 What can we do?

00:41:52.060 What could be done about that from the White House?

00:41:55.840 First of all, I think that, you know, as as president, what I will do is governors should have more control.

00:42:03.140 And the best way to deal with it is presidents typically meet with their governors once a year.

00:42:07.740 I will meet with our governors once a quarter, Republican and Democrat, with the sole goal of sending as much as we can down to the states when it comes to education, when it comes to health care, when it comes to benefits.

00:42:21.480 I know as a governor that what I needed in South Carolina was different than what someone needed in Florida or New Hampshire or anything else.

00:42:29.880 When we go and we allow the people to have better control, let the states decide these things.

00:42:35.060 That way you reduce the size of the Department of Education, you reduce the size of the federal government as a whole, and you empower the people.

00:42:43.540 And, you know, that's what we should be doing.

00:42:45.560 What everybody doesn't realize, we still have 90 percent of our kids undergoing critical race theory, which if a little girl goes into kindergarten, if she's white, you're telling her she's bad.

00:42:54.380 If she's brown or black, you're telling her she's never going to be good enough.

00:42:57.840 She's always going to be a victim. 0.72

00:42:59.220 These governors need to know you don't have to take that money.

00:43:01.900 What the Department of Education says is if you teach this, we'll give you this much money.

00:43:06.460 If you teach critical race theory, we'll give you this much money.

00:43:08.920 We will empower the governors to know don't take the money.

00:43:12.620 You don't have to do that.

00:43:13.800 And let's block grant.

00:43:15.180 Let's send them the funds down because I think we need to put vocational classes back in our high school so that we start building things again.

00:43:23.020 The vocational classes in South Carolina, where we make a lot of things, is going to be very different than the vocational classes in another state.

00:43:30.680 And so I'm all about empowering the people and empowering the states and reducing the size of the federal government and getting that power out of D.C.

00:43:38.720 DeSantis has taken some political fire for the fight with Disney.

00:43:41.860 Disney rose up in response to this law and said, we're going to fight it.

00:43:45.260 We're going to try to get it reversed.

00:43:46.360 We're going to march.

00:43:46.940 We're going to do all these things.

00:43:48.220 And then he got into this battle where he's trying to change the tax laws.

00:43:52.260 And it's ongoing between DeSantis and Disney.

00:43:55.000 A lot of Republicans love this because it just shows that he's willing to fight.

00:43:57.880 They're sick of these woke corporations running roughshod over Republicans in particular and certainly Republican lawmakers.

00:44:04.460 You've said in the past you would have just picked up the phone and called Disney, that you're not particularly in favor of the way DeSantis has been handling it.

00:44:12.380 But realistically, Disney wasn't going to back down in response to a phone call.

00:44:17.580 They're under so much pressure from so many different constituencies to fight these fights.

00:44:23.220 And that woke ideology has risen up from within and from outside and their ESG scores and all of that.

00:44:28.520 So, I mean, how honestly could a phone call have avoided this battle?

00:44:33.200 So it's not just that a phone call would have avoided the battle.

00:44:36.100 I mean, what I am saying is, look, I agree with DeSantis on the fact that gender should not be talked about in schools. 0.97

00:44:41.680 I've said that.

00:44:42.260 I said when it wasn't when it was only in third grade.

00:44:44.300 I didn't think it went far enough.

00:44:45.460 And he needed to go further on that.

00:44:47.340 I also know that Disney's been woke for a long time.

00:44:49.720 They didn't wake up and suddenly become woke.

00:44:51.400 I remember them hitting Trump on immigration and they've hit on a lot of things.

00:44:56.120 And we've got tons of woke companies.

00:44:58.520 What I was saying is, as a governor, when I always partnered with my businesses, there were times my businesses wanted to they disagreed with me on things.

00:45:08.920 I would go pick up the phone and I'd call them and say, look, this is where I am.

00:45:12.580 I'm not moving.

00:45:13.660 You can say what you want to say, but this is why, you know, I think what I think.

00:45:17.060 But I never believed in, one, pressuring what they say because they can do whatever they want to do.

00:45:24.980 But I, more importantly, don't think you spend taxpayer dollars in a fight against a woke company.

00:45:30.240 I think, you know, I'm an accountant.

00:45:32.620 I think taxpayer dollars should be spent making sure that we, you know, do what government's supposed to do, which is just protect the rights and freedoms of the people, not be all things to all people.

00:45:42.900 And I just think if he wants to get into a lawsuit back and forth using taxpayer dollars, he has the right to do that.

00:45:48.320 It's just not what I would have done.

00:45:51.100 2024, you are pulling behind, as you know, the who I've respectfully refer to Trump as the gorilla because he's the 800 pound gorilla in the race who, you know, nobody seems to get past.

00:46:04.260 You used to work for him.

00:46:05.420 And I know that you've said, look, you know, it's early and that these polls don't tend to settle until after Labor Day.

00:46:12.140 But we went back and just looked for one year.

00:46:14.640 What happened after Labor Day in 2015 when he was the leader?

00:46:17.700 He was never not the leader in the Real Clear Politics national average from prior, from early that summer to the day he won the presidency.

00:46:26.200 So what exactly do you expect to change this time around?

00:46:29.380 Because I'll tell you right now, nationally, he's beating you by 49 points in Iowa, by 44 points in New Hampshire, by 40 points, even in your home state of South Carolina, by 29 points.

00:46:40.840 I'm very comfortable with where we are.

00:46:42.880 We had a few benchmarks that we had to overcome.

00:46:45.400 We wanted to have a good announcement.

00:46:46.760 We had thousands of people show up in Charleston, South Carolina, which sent us on our way.

00:46:51.080 We have we wanted to be well received in Iowa, New Hampshire.

00:46:54.340 I was just in the north country of New Hampshire.

00:46:56.660 We've done 39 events in New Hampshire, 25 in Iowa.

00:46:59.600 I'm getting ready to go back to Iowa again.

00:47:01.920 And we wanted to show financial strength.

00:47:03.980 And our campaign and our supporting organizations have raised over $34 million.

00:47:09.320 We've had one hundred and sixty thousand donations from all 50 states.

00:47:13.280 We will be on that debate stage, which I guess will be which my guess will be with five or six other people.

00:47:19.200 And so we're very comfortable.

00:47:20.460 The reason you're not seeing my polls move is we're not spending any money.

00:47:23.740 You know, the other candidates are spending millions of dollars.

00:47:26.700 This is not the time to do that.

00:47:28.220 People are not paying attention.

00:47:29.660 What we're doing is making sure the ground game is there.

00:47:32.340 And what I'll tell you, going into Iowa in 2015, you can go back and look.

00:47:37.100 Ted Cruz going into Iowa in July of 2015 had four percent.

00:47:41.520 In November of 2015, he had 10 percent.

00:47:44.660 In January, he won it outright.

00:47:46.820 The Iowa caucuses at 28 percent.

00:47:49.520 You look at Scott Walker.

00:47:50.980 Scott Walker was Teflon Scott.

00:47:52.440 The media loved him and said he was going to be the next president.

00:47:55.140 He had above 20 percent in July of 2015.

00:47:58.620 He never made it to Iowa.

00:48:00.760 This is a marathon.

00:48:01.840 It's not a sprint.

00:48:03.000 And I'll tell you this, Megan.

00:48:04.500 When I first got into politics, I ran against the longest serving legislator in a primary.

00:48:10.060 He had been there 30 years and people laughed at me.

00:48:13.160 And I got to work and I earned their support and I won.

00:48:16.980 When I ran for governor, I ran against a lieutenant governor, an attorney general, a very popular congressman and a state senator.

00:48:24.220 I was Nikki who I had three percent in the polls.

00:48:27.340 I had the least amount of money and I worked South Carolina like no one else.

00:48:31.180 And I won.

00:48:32.340 When I went to the United Nations, they said I didn't have enough experience.

00:48:35.500 And I got to work and I took the kick me sign off of our backs at the U.N.

00:48:40.080 I have been underestimated in everything I've ever done.

00:48:44.720 And it's a blessing because it makes me scrappy.

00:48:48.200 No one's going to outwork me in this.

00:48:50.440 No one's going to outsmart me in this.

00:48:52.240 So people can look at those polls all they want.

00:48:55.100 I will tell you, debates start in August.

00:48:57.160 I can't wait.

00:48:58.320 I will tell you that things are going to move past Labor Day.

00:49:00.820 And it doesn't matter to me what anybody says.

00:49:03.920 I know that we've got a country to save and I'm going to do everything I can to go and show everybody that we deserve better.

00:49:11.180 And I'm going to make sure that happens.

00:49:12.880 I hear I hear I like scrappy.

00:49:14.340 But I mean, 40 points is 40 points.

00:49:16.220 And I mean, it's 40 points in July of in July of 2020.

00:49:20.780 But he's held it.

00:49:22.300 It's never happened that a candidate has had 40 point advantages over his opponents for months and months and months on end.

00:49:30.160 And then completely crumbled.

00:49:31.920 I mean, if you have a different example, let me hear it.

00:49:34.740 So what I will tell you, there needs to be a plan to get rid of him.

00:49:38.580 What's your plan to get past Trump and his enormous advantage?

00:49:42.900 Well, I have my strategy in place and you will see that play out through the through the fall.

00:49:47.140 But also remind you, Republicans have lost the last seven out of eight popular votes for president.

00:49:52.500 That's nothing to be proud of.

00:49:54.360 We should want to win the majority of Americans.

00:49:56.620 And I will tell you right now, we cannot afford a President Kamala Harris. 1.00

00:50:02.320 So what I will tell all your viewers right now, don't complain about what you get in a general election if you don't play in this primary.

00:50:09.840 We have to have a new generational leader.

00:50:12.420 We've got to leave the drama, the chaos and everything behind.

00:50:15.960 We've got too many threats coming at America from the outside and too many threats in America from the inside.

00:50:22.600 We've got a country to save. And so I will say it doesn't matter to me that he has 40 points.

00:50:28.840 What America needs to say is, do you think he's going to beat Joe Biden?

00:50:32.780 Because Joe Biden's begging for Donald Trump to be his opponent.

00:50:36.800 There's a reason for that. And I'm not going to allow President Kamala Harris to happen to this country.

00:50:43.120 Coming up, the GOP candidate getting the most attention these days besides Trump, Vivek Ramaswamy.

00:50:50.380 We'll be right back.

00:50:52.600 Vivek Ramaswamy has been on the program four times since we launched, including a fun debate with David Sachs about bailing out Silicon Valley Bank.

00:51:04.100 Remember that? That was back in episode 510.

00:51:06.960 But in this clip from episode 539, it is after he had declared for president in April of this year.

00:51:12.880 We talk about his media strategy, including maybe being the final straw in Don Lemon's time at CNN.

00:51:18.760 That's reason enough to vote for Vivek, as well as how his woke ink message was resonating with voters, particularly after the Bud Light debacle.

00:51:27.720 So you went on CNN because you said very openly you'll go on anywhere.

00:51:33.740 You're running for president. You'll talk to anybody. And it didn't go particularly well.

00:51:37.260 Here's a little bit about you challenge of Don challenging you on your appearance at the NRA.

00:51:43.720 And Don Lemon takes issue with your opinions on this issue because you're not a black man.

00:51:50.900 You said something about American history and race. 0.94

00:51:53.640 And I guess you're not allowed to opine on that unless you have black skin, according to Don Lemon.

00:51:57.380 Here was a bit of that.

00:51:58.320 You're telling of history is wrong.

00:52:02.160 What part of the history was wrong, Don?

00:52:04.180 What part of the history was wrong?

00:52:05.160 The Civil War was fought.

00:52:06.260 You're making people think that the Civil War was fought for black people, only for black people to get guns and for black people to have rights.

00:52:11.460 The Civil War was fought for black people in this country to get freedoms, a noble mission.

00:52:15.400 Black people secured their freedoms after the Civil War.

00:52:18.380 It is a historical fact, Don.

00:52:19.680 Just study it.

00:52:20.500 Only after their Second Amendment rights were secured.

00:52:22.480 You are discounting Reconstruction, you're discounting a whole host of things that happened after the Civil War when it comes to African Americans,

00:52:30.080 including the whole reason that the Civil Rights Movement happened.

00:52:33.380 It's because black people did not secure their freedoms after the Civil War and that things turned around.

00:52:37.900 People tried to change the freedoms that were supposed to happen after the Civil War.

00:52:40.660 And you know how they got it?

00:52:41.560 They got their Second Amendment rights and they actually got the NRA played a big role in that.

00:52:45.060 But today, Don, the NRA did not play a big role in that.

00:52:47.140 Absolutely, they trained black Americans how to use firearms.

00:52:49.220 That's a lie. 0.97

00:52:49.800 That's not.

00:52:50.160 The NRA did not play a big role in that.

00:52:51.600 This is just historical fact.

00:52:52.660 It's not a historical fact.

00:52:54.280 We didn't even include the best part where he basically says, you know, he basically suggests he has a higher claim to the argument because of skin color.

00:53:03.820 And went on to diminish you.

00:53:05.520 I don't know what kind of race you are. 0.99

00:53:07.100 I don't know what your back.

00:53:08.200 I mean, it was actually really offensive the way he ended that interview with you.

00:53:13.620 And then his colleague came on.

00:53:16.640 Actually, we have this cut, too.

00:53:17.700 His colleague came on to try to give you a nice goodbye.

00:53:20.060 And that upset him, too.

00:53:21.100 So here's more.

00:53:21.620 The part that I find insulting is when you say today black Americans don't have those rights after we have gone through civil rights revolution in this country.

00:53:28.680 You are sitting here telling an African American about the rights and what you find insulting, about the way I live, the skin I live in every day.

00:53:36.460 Here's where you and I have a different point of view.

00:53:37.400 And I know the freedoms that black and white, that black people don't have in this country and that black people do have. 1.00

00:53:41.800 Well, here's where you and I have a different point of view.

00:53:43.440 I think we should be able to express our views regardless of the color of our skin.

00:53:46.420 We should have this debate without me regarding you as a black man, but me regarding you as a fellow citizen.

00:53:52.000 That's what I think we should say.

00:53:52.920 Whatever ethnicity you are explaining to me about what it's like to be black in America.

00:53:57.820 Whatever ethnicity I am, I'll tell you what I am.

00:53:59.660 I'm an Indian American.

00:54:00.520 I'm proud of it.

00:54:01.080 But I think we should have this debate.

00:54:02.360 Black, white doesn't matter. 1.00

00:54:03.580 I think we should have this debate.

00:54:04.420 On the content of the ideas.

00:54:05.660 If you're going to do it, you should do it in an honest way and in a fair way.

00:54:07.820 And what you're doing is not in an honest and fair way.

00:54:09.800 Okay?

00:54:10.100 But we appreciate you coming on.

00:54:11.220 With due respect, Don, I look forward to continuing that conversation.

00:54:13.980 Thank you.

00:54:14.360 We'll continue the conversation.

00:54:14.880 Thank you.

00:54:15.620 Thank you, Pop.

00:54:18.420 That you were explaining what it's like to be black in America.

00:54:21.440 That's not what happened.

00:54:23.060 You were not trying to speak on behalf of black people.

00:54:25.420 You were talking about America's history.

00:54:28.240 And the reason I go through that exercise, Vivek, is there are several reports out today that that was the last straw for CNN management.

00:54:36.500 If you watch the longer clip go on, you will see Poppy Harlow trying to give you a nice goodbye, saying, we'll talk about China the next time you come on.

00:54:45.140 We'll get more into depth on your policies.

00:54:47.320 And Don Lemon clearly wanted to move right on, saying, goodbye.

00:54:50.860 It's over.

00:54:51.700 You know, move on.

00:54:52.880 So what do you make of the fact that you may have had a role in CNN's ultimate decision to get rid of him?

00:55:00.080 I think I did.

00:55:00.920 And I think that that's a net positive.

00:55:02.900 Look, I actually want to be really clear about this.

00:55:05.200 It all comes down to what the mission of your organization is.

00:55:08.700 If CNN's mission is to advance a woke progressive orthodoxy, Don Lemon is a perfectly fine host to have on air to cut off guests, to tell people they can't speak based on the color of their skin.

00:55:19.400 Because that does represent a worldview that exists in the country.

00:55:22.840 So if that's aligned with your mission as an organization, that's a perfectly sensible decision to keep that person.

00:55:27.980 But what Chris Licht, the new CEO of CNN, who I've met, who I've had an open exchange and dialogue with, you know, a number of weeks or months ago, if he means what he says, and it sounds like he does, that they want to be moved towards being a more open platform for diverse views, then I don't think that type of host actually makes sense in that organization.

00:55:46.380 So to me, it's not just about cancel culture in the other direction and saying that, hey, Don Lemon, it's a good thing he's fired.

00:55:52.300 The question is, what's your purpose as an organization?

00:55:54.160 And if CNN's purpose is to air multiple different perspectives on air, then I think that you can't have TV hosts who tell guests, whoever they are, that they can't speak or express an idea about post-Civil War reconstruction history in America without thinking about what their skin color or race is first.

00:56:11.880 The good thing about me, Megan, is I didn't take particular offense to that exchange.

00:56:15.140 I actually found it really useful.

00:56:16.600 I'm glad we did it.

00:56:18.020 It was a little bit awkward to be on set in the Larry David sense of awkward, but that's okay.

00:56:22.440 I can handle that.

00:56:23.820 That's not a problem for me.

00:56:25.460 I think it's actually really important that we surface some of these dogmas and unspoken expectations that have otherwise been simmering beneath the surface of American discourse.

00:56:35.600 I'm all in favor of actually speaking those hard truths.

00:56:38.740 Let those boil over.

00:56:39.780 I think we need to do that as part of our, let's just say, national self-therapy to get to a place where it's not the way that other guests might have approached it to say that, well, because Don Lemon is black and we're talking about a sensitive issue relating to the history of African-Americans in this country, I'm going to tread around that differently.

00:56:56.080 I did not.

00:56:56.920 I spoke to Don Lemon the same way I would have if he were white or any other race.

00:57:00.100 It doesn't matter. 0.84

00:57:00.680 But what was amazing was he had the nerve to call you out on that as though it were improper, that you as a brown skinned man didn't have a working knowledge of U.S. history when it comes to American black people enough to opine on it while sitting across from a black man. 0.74

00:57:20.900 I mean, that there was some sort of racial hierarchy that would have required you to defer to his opinions about America's history, about historical fact.

00:57:32.520 So that is what the theory of intersectionality, as you well know, is all about.

00:57:37.340 There's a hierarchy of whether you're an oppressor or whether you're oppressed.

00:57:41.300 And if you're lower on that hierarchy, according to that set of rules, you have to either step up and stand up and speak or step back, as they say in their language of the woke movement, to step back and not speak, to give the person of the lower rung on that ladder the chance to speak.

00:57:55.820 I reject that worldview.

00:57:56.640 I think we're all co-equal citizens.

00:57:59.780 Everyone's voice and vote counts equally in the open debate and marketplace of ideas.

00:58:04.020 But in the case of Don Lemon, I was on set with him, Megan.

00:58:06.640 I can tell you what I actually saw happening was that his head exploded a little bit when there were two conflicting ideas that I brought to the fore.

00:58:14.120 And I didn't want to talk about the NRA speech particularly.

00:58:16.680 They're the ones who brought it up.

00:58:17.780 They put an excerpt of my speech up, asked me to respond to it.

00:58:20.400 So I did.

00:58:20.840 The two conflicting ideas were, one, if you're in Don Lemon's headspace, civil rights are a good thing.

00:58:27.400 Second Amendment rights are a bad thing. 0.75

00:58:29.260 That's just an ossified worldview.

00:58:31.500 And part of what I taught him, it's part of history.

00:58:33.740 It's part of American history.

00:58:34.480 We just got to go study it.

00:58:35.500 Is that actually the civil rights of black Americans were never secured until they actually enjoyed Second Amendment protections.

00:58:43.140 In fact, part of the black codes that were passed in the Reconstruction era were designed to take guns and gun ownership rights away from black Americans.

00:58:51.340 That's not an accident.

00:58:52.960 The Dred Scott decision, which preceded the Civil War, Chief Justice Taney famously and ignominiously said that part of the reason black people couldn't be citizens in this country is because it would give them the right to own guns.

00:59:05.500 So this is fundamental stuff, even in Supreme Court doctrine.

00:59:08.500 So I was exposing that history, but that made Don Lemon's head explode because, to him, Second Amendment bad, civil rights good, and I'm committing some sort of cardinal sin by mixing the two together, when it's just a fact of history that actually one was fundamental to securing the other.

00:59:22.460 And the audience should know that Vivek went to, in addition to his success on Wall Street and so on, went to Yale Law School.

00:59:27.940 I mean, he graduated from Yale Law School.

00:59:29.120 So you know the law.

00:59:30.220 You were prepared for a debate or a discussion on that.

00:59:32.420 But the irony is, if he actually expected you to cede the arguments to him because he's a black man and you're not, he shouldn't have had you on the show. 0.96

00:59:41.420 He should have just looked into the camera and offered his own opinions on all these matters.

00:59:45.240 He invited you to be interviewed on his program and then got upset when you actually offered your view and explained why you made the claims about gun rights and so on.

00:59:56.120 And so his intersectionality approach doesn't work.

01:00:00.120 If you want that, go be a pundit.

01:00:02.760 Don't be an interviewer on a national cable show.

01:00:05.220 Yeah, I tend to agree with you on that, Megan.

01:00:08.260 And my whole point is, I actually go to these forums precisely because right now there's two alternatives.

01:00:13.060 I present a third.

01:00:14.260 Alternative number one is you go on there, but you have to actually follow the orthodoxy.

01:00:18.320 You have to effectively bend the knee quietly without saying it.

01:00:21.680 Acknowledge that when you're talking about certain subjects to people of a certain race that you have to tread around it.

01:00:26.380 I don't do that.

01:00:27.460 Option number two is you do that.

01:00:28.640 You come out looking like a villain, which is how they're ready to portray you.

01:00:31.880 I pick a third path.

01:00:33.220 Let's be dignified.

01:00:34.180 Let's actually stick to our arguments without compromising on our principles, but do it unapologetically in a way that surfaces the actual tension underneath that implicit assumption that other people don't talk about.

01:00:45.580 And I think it would be a mistake here to just focus on Don Lemon.

01:00:48.220 I mean, he's, I think, look, I think there's better models for how to succeed in your career as a journalist in staying close to the truth than following Don Lemon's path.

01:00:56.600 But it's not all about him.

01:00:58.180 He's representing a worldview.

01:01:00.280 I mean, take Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley of the squad. 1.00

01:01:03.100 She's not a journalist.

01:01:03.920 She's in Congress. 0.91

01:01:04.520 But she basically said the same thing even more concisely than Don Lemon did a couple of years ago when she said, we don't want any more black faces that don't want to be a black voice. 0.99

01:01:15.080 We don't want any more brown faces that don't want to be a brown voice. 1.00

01:01:19.100 That's an exact quote.

01:01:20.980 I don't fit her description of what counts as a brown voice because I reject the premise that your skin color ought to predict anything about the content of the ideas you're allowed to espouse.

01:01:31.600 That is true racism.

01:01:32.680 That is definitional racism to say that I can predict something about the content of your ideas based on the color of your skin.

01:01:39.180 And yet that's become quietly accepted in much of mainstream culture in America.

01:01:43.500 I will say, Megan, though, I'm optimistic.

01:01:45.900 I think the fact that we're having this conversation on the back of CNN making the decision to actually remove Don Lemon from air, hopefully replace him with somebody who's a more thoughtful journalist.

01:01:54.860 I do think I'm actually quite optimistic that we're a domino effect, a hair's trigger away from a national revival that rejects this woke orthodoxy that's been an assault on American excellence.

01:02:07.100 You saw it from Netflix about a year ago after the Dave Chappelle controversy.

01:02:10.740 I think this is a good move that Chris Licht has taken at CNN.

01:02:13.980 I think if we keep our optimism alive, right, I think a lot of that woke woke ism that has infected institutions over the last several years, people are hungry for something new.

01:02:22.520 I think it's up to conservatives in this country.

01:02:24.360 This is why I feel called to do it, to lead the way with an affirmative vision of our own, not just being victimized by the victimhood culture.

01:02:31.580 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:31.960 But by actually leading the way with our own vision.

01:02:33.440 Well, we've heard people like Joy Reid explicitly say about black people in America who have heterodox views on this whole woke ism their skin folk, but not kin folk.

01:02:43.340 That's you know, that's how they dismiss anybody who sees things the way you do, but happens to be a black man or a black woman. 0.92

01:02:50.120 It's absolutely disrespectful and it's racist.

01:02:52.720 I do want to ask you, first of all, did you have that conversation with Chris Licht, the new head of CNN, took over for Jeff Zucker after that exchange with Don Lemon on the air?

01:03:01.720 It was before it was beforehand.

01:03:03.360 I was I was I thought it was my place to leave them be.

01:03:08.440 I think there was a lot of discomfort after that, and they were very respectful of the people who had booked me right after I was off air.

01:03:14.160 But I left that.

01:03:14.720 Well, let me show you the ending.

01:03:15.700 Let me show the audience the very, very last part where he, Poppy, tried to save it.

01:03:20.060 I mean, this is what you do when you're a co-anchor.

01:03:21.640 I've been there with something tense happens.

01:03:24.400 You try to diffuse the tension a little, keep things nice with the guest before they leave and say nice goodbye, which she attempted to do.

01:03:30.580 And he was clearly irritated by her and he always lets his irritation show.

01:03:34.620 This is one of the reasons why that morning show is a disaster.

01:03:37.220 They have record low ratings and his co-hosts very clearly can't stand him.

01:03:42.920 But here was his last parting remark in the whole exchange to Poppy.

01:03:48.600 We appreciate you coming on with due respect.

01:03:51.020 Don, I look forward to continuing that conversation.

01:03:52.980 Thank you.

01:03:53.420 We'll continue the conversation.

01:03:53.880 Thank you.

01:03:54.640 Thank you, Poppy.

01:03:55.520 We'll talk about China.

01:03:56.540 Yes.

01:03:56.880 Next time you come back.

01:03:58.480 Oh, thank you.

01:03:59.000 Much to say on declaring independence from China.

01:04:01.060 Something you can add on now, please.

01:04:02.320 Thank you.

01:04:02.680 Thank you.

01:04:02.980 So we can move on now, please.

01:04:08.480 And so the reports are that they've had it between his reported diva moments and his sexist remarks.

01:04:17.100 The Nikki Haley thing.

01:04:18.400 There's a report this morning, I think it's in the Daily Mail, talking about how so many staffers at CNN were actually really ticked off and offended by saying, you know, Nikki Haley's past her prime.

01:04:28.260 Sorry, a woman's past her prime when she's out of her 20s, 30s, maybe at age 40 and on and on. 1.00

01:04:33.280 There's lots of examples, Don Lemon, not liking women.

01:04:35.580 He doesn't doesn't like women.

01:04:37.260 That's my opinion.

01:04:38.220 It seems pretty clear.

01:04:39.440 He blames everything on women.

01:04:40.820 Anything goes wrong on the set?

01:04:41.880 Interruption.

01:04:42.320 It's the woman's fault. 1.00

01:04:43.380 Trust me.

01:04:43.980 That's his M.O.

01:04:44.980 Blame the woman. 1.00

01:04:46.420 And so I do wonder.

01:04:47.880 Megan, there's a funny connection there just to just to briefly draw it.

01:04:50.920 So he's a man who feels particularly totally free to talk about when women are or are not in their prime and to criticize women for being women, but somehow believes that if you're not black, you can't actually even make a comment about supposed to war history.

01:05:02.420 So there is a certain rich irony in that if you observe it.

01:05:05.080 That's how the woke are. 0.63

01:05:05.920 They have a weird hierarchy that you really have to be immersed in it to totally understand it.

01:05:09.540 So after that moment when they said goodbye to you, Vivek, what was that?

01:05:12.460 What was it like?

01:05:13.080 It's always kind of fun to get a behind the scenes, you know, wrap up of what happened on set after something like that.

01:05:18.260 Yes.

01:05:18.540 So I had a nice exchange with Poppy.

01:05:20.280 I felt bad for her, to be honest, because I think she had been sidelined in the conversation.

01:05:23.960 She was trying her best.

01:05:25.380 So I told her, look, we have a conversation.

01:05:28.260 China later on.

01:05:29.060 I walked off.

01:05:29.820 I went out of my way to really be thankful to the producers and those who were on set as well.

01:05:35.560 I think it was awkward for everyone there.

01:05:37.840 So I tried to do my part to bring a lighthearted tone and say they're doing great work and to keep up the beautiful set.

01:05:44.700 That's what I think I told them, which is a nice looking set, I guess.

01:05:48.000 Okay.

01:05:48.220 And then I left and, you know, they were very decent about it afterwards.

01:05:50.880 I think they reached out to my people who did the scheduling to, you know, effectively apologize for that interaction.

01:05:55.740 But I don't need apologies.

01:05:56.560 I think that this is good, actually, for our country to be able to air this kind of underlying tension in our discourse.

01:06:03.860 It's just so crazy.

01:06:04.780 It shows the craziness.

01:06:05.920 It's like somebody saying to me, like, women didn't actually, they got their right to vote, you know, in 1920, but they didn't actually get their power until 1970.

01:06:13.460 And me saying, no, actually, the data show that in the 1960s they were really coming of age.

01:06:17.780 And somebody being like, no, actually, the data show that in 1974, that's when it started.

01:06:21.520 And me being like, you're a man.

01:06:24.340 I'm a woman. 1.00

01:06:25.880 Shut up. 1.00

01:06:26.380 People do that. 1.00

01:06:26.940 Shut up. 1.00

01:06:27.380 People who say that kind of stuff. 1.00

01:06:28.620 It's ridiculous. 0.97

01:06:30.080 Thank you for calling it out and giving us a good example of how they operate. 0.66

01:06:33.540 Now, you mentioned something because crusading against these woke, you know, pushes in corporate media, in corporate America and so on, has been a big issue for you.

01:06:43.800 This is one of the reasons why I love what you're doing.

01:06:45.680 Um, there's an update in the whole Bud Light disaster today, which is just, I think, spectacular.

01:06:52.320 So, of course, their stock price fell in the wake of the boycott after they partnered with trans activist or trans person Dylan Mulvaney.

01:07:00.060 And their core audience and core, you know, purchasers revolted across America saying, what are you doing?

01:07:07.080 We don't want you dabbling in this stuff.

01:07:08.820 Just service our beer. 0.97

01:07:09.820 For the love of God, shut up and service the beer. 1.00

01:07:12.700 And they tried to be quiet.

01:07:14.720 It failed.

01:07:15.680 Their stock price was dwindling and their sales were dwindling.

01:07:19.180 Then their stock price went a little back up.

01:07:21.040 And the people who are against you on the woke stuff, Vivek, said, oh, it went back up.

01:07:25.400 Ha ha ha.

01:07:26.040 But the real question was, how about the sales?

01:07:28.200 How about the sales?

01:07:28.980 The stock's going to do what the stock's going to do.

01:07:30.980 How are they doing on the sales of Bud Light?

01:07:33.040 Well, now we have an answer to that.

01:07:34.940 And by the way, they they saw these numbers before we did.

01:07:38.360 The people at Bud Light, the reading from the New York Post today.

01:07:41.220 Bud Light has suffered a staggering sales hit following its disastrous marketing tie up with transgender influencer Dylan Mulvaney. 0.95

01:07:49.540 The latest data showing a 17 percent drop in sales.

01:07:53.380 17.

01:07:54.400 It only went down, I think, 8 percent or 6 percent in the first week after the controversy.

01:07:59.560 And now it's it's almost triple that the drop in sales and probably going to go up even more.

01:08:06.840 They've now put this the woman who made the decision, we're told, Alyssa, on leave of absence, though it was clearly not her idea.

01:08:17.300 And I don't think she's ever coming back, as well as her boss also on a leave of absence.

01:08:21.800 And I think this is a huge victory.

01:08:23.740 I'd like to see them.

01:08:24.540 I think they're fired.

01:08:25.240 So I'm taking the W.

01:08:27.760 However, I think this is an inflection point in these in the battle that you've been fighting and yours truly as well, to a lesser extent, to get these corporations to stay in their lane and just do their thing.

01:08:39.020 Sell your beer, sell your facial cream, but stop trying to wokeify America. 0.99

01:08:44.480 That's what makes America great, is that we have a system of capitalism that is insulated or at least historically has been from partisan politics.

01:08:54.300 First of all, that makes companies more successful.

01:08:57.060 Bud Light's just one example among many.

01:08:59.120 Megan, that's what the whole book is about, the capitalist punishment book that I'm putting that's out today.

01:09:02.860 That is about why companies are more successful when they are not encumbered by these environmental and social agendas.

01:09:09.760 But there's something even more fundamental than that, Megan, which is that actually Tocqueville, Alexis de Tocqueville, he made this observation about America.

01:09:16.300 We're a diverse, divided, democratic society.

01:09:18.660 We're not supposed to last for more than a couple of generations, unless there are these apolitical spaces that bind us together, that literally bring us together.

01:09:29.700 Bud Light is liquid fuel that brings people together at football games, at parties, across the country.

01:09:35.200 It's uniting.

01:09:36.560 When that itself becomes politicized, that's really the beginning of the end of the American experiment, if we lose those apolitical sanctuaries that are supposed to hold us together.

01:09:46.040 And Tocqueville said that back then, too, is America requires what he calls these intermediate institutions.

01:09:51.460 Capitalism is the biggest of those.

01:09:53.300 And so for me, on a personal level, it's not just because I think it makes companies less successful, though that's definitely true.

01:09:59.040 And we see that example on display here.

01:10:01.700 It's that it makes America and our constitutional republic itself less successful.

01:10:06.300 It won't survive if we don't have those spaces where we can come together across the divides of identity politics or partisan politics.

01:10:14.880 I'm with you, Megan.

01:10:15.800 And I think that we are at a potential turning point here.

01:10:18.900 I think people, you know, the woke movement, what it did is the analogy I sometimes have used is it's like when young people are hungry for a cause.

01:10:27.020 They tell them you satisfy your moral hunger by going to Ben and Jerry's and ordering a cup of ice cream with some social justice sprinkles on the side.

01:10:34.940 I mean, effectively, that's been the culture for the last several years.

01:10:38.320 I think that you don't satisfy a moral hunger with fast food.

01:10:43.140 You sort of get that hit initially, but then that starts to fade up, fade away, and you still realize you're still hungry, hungry for something more substantial, purpose that you derive from something other than corporate virtue signaling.

01:10:55.060 And that's the opportunity in front of us for the conservative movement.

01:10:58.460 Can we fill that void with a vision of American identity that's actually more powerful, that dilutes the woke agenda to irrelevance?

01:11:07.000 That's a question of whether the conservative movement can rise to that occasion or not.

01:11:10.140 That's why I'm in this presidential race.

01:11:11.500 The way it used to be in this country.

01:11:12.940 The way it can be.

01:11:13.760 And the way it can be.

01:11:14.920 How?

01:11:14.960 How?

01:11:15.220 How?

01:11:15.380 How?

01:11:15.540 How?

01:11:15.640 How?

01:11:15.860 That's the problem.

01:11:16.620 Like, I'm with you.

01:11:17.420 A hundred percent with you.

01:11:18.680 But how on earth are we going to get these young people to get back to that?

01:11:22.420 I mean, yeah, teaching civics.

01:11:24.020 What?

01:11:24.240 We're going to force them to go back to church?

01:11:25.980 That's up to their parents.

01:11:27.300 Americans are moving away from religion, away from more children, away from civics. 0.92

01:11:31.300 It's depressing.

01:11:32.720 But how can a president push us back in that direction?

01:11:37.880 Look, I think part of this is there are many hats to wear here.

01:11:40.720 One is a policymaking hat, and I can come to that.

01:11:43.480 But some of this is through the kind of leadership and national character that you set.

01:11:47.020 I don't think we have had a president in this country since Reagan who tied the what, what we're doing, the motions we're going through, to the why, to the principles that actually set the country into motion.

01:11:58.860 And I reject this political worldview that both parties seem to espouse, that human beings are somehow just these biological automatons walking around and we're supposed to bean count them to see how they'll vote.

01:12:09.080 I believe in the power of persuasion.

01:12:11.160 I think people are, especially young people, Megan, are hungry to be led.

01:12:15.720 I went to, you know, we've done these bus tours for the last few days.

01:12:18.340 I was in New Hampshire on a bus tour.

01:12:19.860 I was in Iowa on a bus tour.

01:12:21.380 South Carolina's a bus tour later this week.

01:12:23.840 We stop at college campuses on these bus tours.

01:12:25.980 I went to one, New England College in New Hampshire, where I was told that other Republican candidates didn't want to show up at some of these college campuses.

01:12:33.800 Well, you want to know why?

01:12:34.760 It's because they're going to get the kinds of questions that I got, which aren't that different than interaction with Don Lemon on set.

01:12:39.620 But the thing about, unlike Don Lemon, who's making, you know, was making millions of dollars while claiming to be a victim, the difference with young people on these college campuses, they don't really believe the stuff they're fed and spewing back.

01:12:49.820 They're hungry. They're lost.

01:12:52.380 And I think if we can fill that void with even a sense of leadership, talking about understanding that our worst hypocrisies as a nation are actually our best evidence that we have ideals at all, because to be a hypocrite, you at least had to have those ideals.

01:13:06.040 I think we bring these people along, Megan, because here's the other thing about being 21 years old or 19 years old.

01:13:11.820 You want to stick it to the man.

01:13:13.460 You want to stand up to the system and be a hippie and be countercultural.

01:13:16.380 That's what made the woke movement popular in the first place, is that that was sticking it to the system of the people who are in power.

01:13:22.940 Well, now we've come full circle where what began as a challenge to the system has become the system.

01:13:29.040 I think we can actually tap into young people's desire to be heterodox.

01:13:33.180 You don't want to be heterodox?

01:13:34.080 Call yourself a religious conservative on a college campus.

01:13:36.760 See what that does to you.

01:13:38.280 And I think it takes a certain voice.

01:13:39.860 And I think it takes us.

01:13:40.720 I'm 37.

01:13:41.380 I'm the first millennial to ever run for president as a Republican.

01:13:44.000 But I want to use these attributes to reach that next generation.

01:13:47.940 I'm actually optimistic that that opportunity is sitting in front of us just through persuasion alone.

01:13:52.600 On policy, I could give you a lot of my ideas on how to do it.

01:13:54.760 But actually, I think this other cultural character is almost more important.

01:13:58.240 And then the policies just follow naturally from that.

01:14:00.500 I am.

01:14:00.780 I'm gleaning.

01:14:02.060 It's almost like you don't feel our current president has this ability.

01:14:07.560 But Vivek, perhaps it's because you have not seen his announcement rally that he held today with thousands of people cheering him on.

01:14:16.480 So, oh, wait, that didn't happen.

01:14:18.340 He announced that he's running for reelection on videotape.

01:14:22.960 And the message was, well, I'll let you react.

01:14:27.060 Here's a bit of it.

01:14:27.740 All around the country, MAGA extremists are lining up to take on those bedrock freedoms.

01:14:38.380 Cutting Social Security that you paid for your entire life while cutting taxes for the very wealthy.

01:14:43.760 Dictating what health care decisions women can make. 0.99

01:14:46.440 Banning books and telling people who they can love.

01:14:50.160 All while making it more difficult for you to be able to vote.

01:14:52.820 When I ran for president four years ago, I said we're in a battle for the soul of America.

01:14:58.060 And we still are.

01:15:00.660 I feel uplifted and optimistic about America.

01:15:03.300 How about you?

01:15:04.600 Well, that really sounds like a man who says he wants to deliver national unity by labeling his opponents.

01:15:11.180 People disagree with him as MAGA extremists.

01:15:13.920 You know, Joe Biden said he wanted to run on a vision of national unity.

01:15:17.240 If he was going to deliver it, it would have happened already.

01:15:19.900 By the way, the single most unifying, he had his chance.

01:15:22.240 It was teed up for him.

01:15:23.800 He had his chance to unify this country.

01:15:25.740 You know how he could have done it?

01:15:27.100 Is when Donald Trump was arrested and indicted by Alvin Bragg, a member of Joe Biden's political party.

01:15:32.740 If Joe Biden had said what I said at that same time, as somebody who was also running against Trump, that this is a politicized prosecution, it's persecution.

01:15:39.420 And even though you shouldn't elect Trump, you know what?

01:15:42.100 This is wrong and we should not arrest our political opponents.

01:15:45.460 That was his moment for national unity.

01:15:48.140 I don't think he cares about that.

01:15:49.360 But here's the thing that's deeper, Megan.

01:15:51.160 I think it's the joke and the farce and all of this that we may as well call out.

01:15:54.680 Joe Biden's not really the one running for president.

01:15:56.880 Let's just call that for what it is, right?

01:15:58.340 He's over twice my age and then some, but it's not even the age thing.

01:16:02.680 It's his cognitive deficits.

01:16:04.900 They're not a bug.

01:16:05.980 They're a feature for the managerial class who would rather have a hollowed out husk in the White House. 0.71

01:16:13.300 They're almost needling the American people.

01:16:15.580 They're almost needling the citizens of this country, laughing, saying, you know how much we rule you as the managerial class, the three-letter acronomists, bureaucratic soup in Washington, D.C.

01:16:25.440 We can put that guy up, barely mentally competent, present even as a human being.

01:16:30.780 That's who we can put up, and we're still going to run the show for you.

01:16:34.540 That's what this really is.

01:16:36.000 And so when I see myself running against Joe Biden in this race, I'm not running against Biden.

01:16:40.320 I'm running against a puppet.

01:16:41.580 It's like the Wizard of Oz, the front man, for a managerial class that's behind it.

01:16:46.200 That's really the heart of what's going on, and we might as well see that for what it is.

01:16:50.140 And it's also why the DNC, by the way, doesn't want to have debates, because they want to make sure the front man for that managerial class isn't subjected to debate from the likes of RFK or Marianne Williamson or anybody else.

01:17:01.200 And so I think it's worth seeing through the farce that somehow this is about Biden and his failure.

01:17:05.800 He's just the stooge who's the front man at the end of it.

01:17:09.440 Vivek is definitely someone we're going to keep an eye on in the months ahead.

01:17:13.040 When we come back, Senator Tim Scott.

01:17:15.460 Now, my interview with Senator Tim Scott from August of last year in episode 370.

01:17:25.140 We talked about his life story, the promise of America, and, yes, his now opponent in the GOP primary, Donald Trump.

01:17:31.860 I have to tell you, Tim Scott wasn't that great at the debate, I thought.

01:17:35.340 I'm just being honest.

01:17:36.880 Great in this interview.

01:17:38.800 Take a listen.

01:17:39.220 You know, I've always said about Trump, I'm not I'm not under his spell, but I'm not suffering from Trump derangement syndrome either.

01:17:48.440 So I feel like I'm in a unique position and I feel like the same is true of you.

01:17:52.660 You've been critical of the president at times.

01:17:54.480 You've been extremely supportive of him at times.

01:17:56.540 You have beautiful stories in your book about his treatment of people like your mom.

01:18:00.520 So I feel like you're able to criticize him when he's done wrong.

01:18:03.540 But what's happening here really feels like persecution.

01:18:06.860 Yeah, Megan, you're 100 percent right.

01:18:09.660 One of the things that we have to do is tell both sides of the story, see both sides of the ledger.

01:18:14.120 And while the president has done some things that I've spoken out against, he's also led one of the greatest economic recoveries and one of the most inclusive economies.

01:18:22.620 But at the same time, he sat down with victims, families whose loved ones lost their lives at the hand of police.

01:18:29.740 And he listened.

01:18:30.580 He was patient, deferential.

01:18:32.600 And what I hope from Lady Justice is when the blindfold is on, the scales are balanced.

01:18:40.060 And when I'm looking at today, I question whether or not there's a thumb or a foot on the scale when it comes to certain people in certain places that we just don't like.

01:18:51.180 That's not America.

01:18:52.840 It's not American. 0.81

01:18:54.100 It's not justice.

01:18:55.200 We, as Americans, fought for the last 246 years to come to the place where every single person should be judged based on what they do, not who they are, not whether or not we like them.

01:19:08.760 And that's what's so stunning and concerning about the current predicament that we see our Justice Department in.

01:19:15.940 And remember, last week in the Judiciary Committee, Christopher Wray was testifying about inconsistencies in the FBI.

01:19:26.440 So this is not simply about yesterday.

01:19:28.620 The precursor to yesterday was this inconsistent application of justice for a very long time.

01:19:36.640 And now it's heading to the most powerful regions of this country.

01:19:40.460 What does that say to the average person in this nation?

01:19:43.320 Mm hmm.

01:19:44.520 They can't stop going after Donald Trump.

01:19:47.500 They love nothing more than to pursue him criminally, whether it's in the U.S. Senate, trying to get a conviction on the impeachment.

01:19:56.160 And as I mentioned, the New York prosecutors, which that D.A. was under enormous pressure.

01:20:01.400 And to his credit, he said, I'm not doing that one that we don't have it.

01:20:04.940 And I could go down the list.

01:20:06.400 And the Democrats are ratcheting up the pressure now on Merrick Garland.

01:20:10.200 They want and I'm sure they'd love to see Trump behind bars.

01:20:13.820 They would love that.

01:20:15.000 But what they really don't want is for him to run again.

01:20:18.180 And God forbid, in their view, to win again.

01:20:20.980 I believe in my core.

01:20:22.160 That's what this is about.

01:20:23.500 You you were on Capitol Hill on January 6th.

01:20:26.180 You write openly in the book about how scary that was having to run in the in the private room with the chaplain praying.

01:20:33.000 Yes.

01:20:33.200 It's not like you didn't get that it was a serious, dangerous day, a terrible day, but this ongoing obsession with pinning it entirely on Donald Trump and slapping criminal charges on him.

01:20:45.520 That's what this is about.

01:20:47.240 What do you think of it?

01:20:47.940 Well, Megan, there's no doubt I've done a lot of interviews this week trying to make sure that people understand and appreciate what I believe is the future of America.

01:20:55.240 And that's us getting along together.

01:20:56.480 It's one of the reasons why America redemption story is so important.

01:20:59.020 And in the book, I talk specifically about January the 6th, and I put the blame exactly where it needs to be on the shoulders and in the hearts of those entering the Capitol.

01:21:11.940 I put it right where it needs to be as I'm finding an escape route.

01:21:16.520 Those pursuing me should be held responsible for their bad and disgusting decisions at times to come out and come against people like me and other senators.

01:21:27.240 I think through that day, and the one thing that a lot of media refuses to accept is that the responsibility for individuals is the person in the mirror.

01:21:39.100 Not somebody at 1600 Pennsylvania, but literally the person in the mirror is the one that I must hold accountable for hunting me.

01:21:49.280 What do you mean?

01:21:50.420 Expand on that.

01:21:51.080 Well, as opposed to suggesting that President Trump somehow persuaded these folks to show up with weapons in hand or guns in their sacks to look for a way to overturn the election,

01:22:02.660 I think that the best thing that I can do is to look at the folks coming down the hallway and hold those individuals responsible for their actions.

01:22:11.700 It's like my mama used to say when I was a youngster.

01:22:14.080 If your friends jump off the bridge, are you jumping off the bridge too?

01:22:18.860 I love your mom's advice, by the way.

01:22:21.900 I love your grandma's advice too, like pass down generation to generation and how all the top three rules are basically the same rule.

01:22:29.680 Yes.

01:22:30.080 And it's about personal responsibility.

01:22:32.280 That's been my experience.

01:22:33.840 There's no doubt about it that the more personally responsible we are, the more liberty we will experience.

01:22:39.420 The less we give our lives over to some central control, central command, we'll have a caste system in this nation and those at the bottom will be stuck there. 0.94

01:22:49.960 And that's what I don't know why we don't see clearly into the future under this current drive where the application of justice is inconsistent, where the rules are changed based on who's on the field.

01:23:03.380 That is exactly what we fought against.

01:23:06.620 It's exactly why I thought this was the time to write a book about hope and unity forged together through hard work, discipline, perseverance, and tenacity.

01:23:16.880 Those characteristics lead us in the right direction, but blaming somebody else, victimhood, those are the things that lead us in the wrong direction.

01:23:24.800 You know, I listened to you on CBS this morning with Gayle King, and she was all about, is Donald Trump really the best representative of the Republican Party right now?

01:23:36.700 He's crushing in all the polls.

01:23:38.160 As much as the Republicans love Ron DeSantis and he's been a leader on fighting back on some of the woke nonsense, Trump's crushing.

01:23:45.020 I mean, he was the U.S. president just a couple of years ago.

01:23:47.500 Yes.

01:23:47.640 So he's going to remain in the lead unless something catastrophic happens, like he goes behind bars.

01:23:52.660 But she was very pressing on, is he the right representative?

01:23:57.200 Yes.

01:23:57.580 I find it fascinating because it exposes her view, the liberal media's view.

01:24:03.860 They hate him.

01:24:04.940 They see him as a devil.

01:24:07.540 They don't understand that there could possibly be a good man in there who actually cares about the country. 0.65

01:24:13.760 They see him as entirely narcissistic, selfish, that he doesn't care about the country even a little, that he only cares about getting his name in lights.

01:24:23.520 And this is part of the problem because they're willing to do anything to stop such a man from resuming in power.

01:24:30.040 Megan, there's no doubt when you think about what you just said, and it's so powerful, clear, and succinct.

01:24:34.760 One of the things I do in the books, I walk people through the Donald Trump when the cameras are off.

01:24:42.280 I walk people through this experience that I had when President Trump calls my mother on her 75th, I'm sorry, I shouldn't say my mother's age out loud.

01:24:49.700 I apologize.

01:24:50.840 75th birthday, though.

01:24:52.380 And it was an unexpected call at an unexpected time, but it was perfectly timed.

01:24:57.920 And literally for 10 or 15 minutes, my mama said for five minutes, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God.

01:25:04.160 And President Trump was so patient.

01:25:06.440 And then they had a conversation for 10 minutes after two minutes of, oh, my God.

01:25:10.440 Why people refuse to see that there's a human under the caricature of Donald Trump, I don't understand.

01:25:18.000 Why people want to judge others by their actions and we judge ourselves by our intentions, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

01:25:26.840 Especially in the echo chambers of justice.

01:25:30.260 I want the echo in our country to sound like fairness.

01:25:33.480 I want the view that the average person coming from the poorest neighborhoods have that in America the rules are set.

01:25:40.780 And I'm going to judge everybody by the same yardstick, that the same value system that I want for you is the same value system I'm willing to live under.

01:25:50.120 And your opening monologue was so important in establishing the inconsistencies that we are seeing in this justice department and the way that justice is being applied to one of the most powerful figures of our time.

01:26:05.180 And they get away with it because they've convinced their base he's truly evil and must be stopped.

01:26:10.640 He's a uniquely evil force.

01:26:12.540 Yes.

01:26:12.720 And it brings me to two stories in your book, which I found illuminating.

01:26:16.640 One, speaking about your mom, was the trip that you and Donald Trump gave her, the special trip.

01:26:23.880 I'd love to hear about that.

01:26:24.940 Yes.

01:26:25.160 And then we'll get to opportunity zones.

01:26:26.820 But let's talk first about your mom and the special surprise you and Donald Trump arranged for her.

01:26:31.360 Well, Megan, I was talking to the president one day and he said, anything I can ever do, you know, President Trump.

01:26:36.420 President Trump's always saying, you know, whatever in the world you ever want, please give me a call.

01:26:41.120 I'll be happy to help.

01:26:41.980 And I know he means well, but I don't always ask for anything.

01:26:46.460 Usually I don't.

01:26:47.080 And this time I decided to say, you know what, President?

01:26:49.640 I want my mother to have a once in a lifetime experience. 0.96

01:26:52.940 Air Force One would be a once in a lifetime experience.

01:26:56.720 I said that I never followed up on it.

01:26:59.060 It's probably more than a year later.

01:27:00.460 I can't remember exactly how long it was.

01:27:02.860 I get a call.

01:27:04.100 President Trump is inviting my mom on Air Force One.

01:27:06.800 And I will tell you what, I have the pictures to prove it, that it was one amazing experience with a, thank you, a thrilling experience.

01:27:17.620 My mother was so ecstatic about the experience.

01:27:22.040 And President Trump's pulling his chair out for her.

01:27:25.100 And once again, there are no cameras except for the ones taking the pictures.

01:27:29.000 There's no TV show to watch.

01:27:30.800 This was literally a private exchange with the President of the United States on Air Force One with someone who's been demonized from the day before he took the office, the day before he took the oath.

01:27:43.260 There were already headlines about impeaching President Trump.

01:27:46.060 And yet we don't see the humanity of the individual.

01:27:49.260 And I have been critical of the President when necessary.

01:27:52.300 And so I'm not coming with Lady Justice blinders on my eyes.

01:27:58.180 I actually see just fine.

01:28:00.340 And the truth is that I am thankful to live in a country where there is a blindfold on justice.

01:28:06.120 I just want us not to peek around the blindfold when it comes to people we don't like or experiences we don't understand.

01:28:13.240 In the book, you write about how not only did he give her an insist that she sit in his seat on Air Force One, which she was reluctant to do, who made her, but he sat with her for the whole flight.

01:28:23.500 I mean, that's really the thing that got me and chatted her up.

01:28:26.260 You said they were laughing so hard.

01:28:27.640 It was hilarious to look back and peek in on.

01:28:29.480 A lot of people in his position, even before he was president, even when he was just a big celebrity, would have said, oh, nice to meet you, glad handing and then moved on and wouldn't want to spend an entire air flight, you know, talking to a stranger who's in her 70s.

01:28:44.580 That I mean, that's just the reality.

01:28:46.240 But he did.

01:28:47.300 He's in his 70s, too.

01:28:48.380 But, you know, he did and really seemed to want her to have a great time.

01:28:52.700 I mean, I do think that speaks well of him.

01:28:54.940 You acknowledge the abrasive language.

01:28:56.760 We all know President Trump is not perfect.

01:28:58.660 Yes. 0.96

01:28:59.820 But to those who think the man's not even human, he's just this monster who's looking, who's like drunk on power, wanting to hurt people.

01:29:07.240 It isn't true.

01:29:08.420 There's another side to him.

01:29:09.960 He's human just like the rest of us.

01:29:11.440 Totally agree.

01:29:12.120 And the fact of the matter is when you think about his response in almost every situation where he and I disagreed, he gave me deference.

01:29:18.800 He gave me enough margin to make my case.

01:29:21.260 And he didn't agree with me all the time, frankly.

01:29:23.180 But he always said, is there an alternative?

01:29:25.820 He gave me the pivot, the opportunity to pivot.

01:29:28.320 And that's such an important quality in the leader of the free world to say to someone that he doesn't have to.

01:29:34.820 I hear you.

01:29:35.800 I see you.

01:29:36.780 Now show me a better way for the nation.

01:29:39.560 Not for those who supported me, because as we talk about opportunities zones in a few minutes, the one thing you'll hear is that the voters that he was helping, the constituents that he helped in that decision were the ones that he offended.

01:29:51.480 So he wasn't looking for a way to get them back on the team.

01:29:54.960 That may never happen.

01:29:56.180 But he literally went out of his way to hear the painful story and the provocative history of race in this country.

01:30:03.980 And at the same time, respond by saying, let's do something that brings opportunities into the most fragile economic communities in this nation.

01:30:13.660 It was a stunning experience.

01:30:15.380 It's a great story because you write in the book about how you were not happy with the president's comments, you know, in total in after Charlottesville.

01:30:23.620 And he had said, you know, the good people on both sides.

01:30:28.080 And he had said that he condemned the white supremacists.

01:30:30.380 But a lot of people, especially people in communities of color, were like too close, didn't like it, offended.

01:30:36.500 The messaging should have been really clear.

01:30:38.640 And they didn't think it was.

01:30:40.700 So you made a comment about that publicly.

01:30:43.400 And he called you up and said, let's have a meeting.

01:30:45.780 And you write in the book about how you're like, oh, boy, you know, I feel how I feel, but I know what it's like, what's going to come my way.

01:30:53.800 I'm in his crosshairs now.

01:30:55.580 And he doesn't really lose fights.

01:30:58.120 And so this could be highly unpleasant.

01:31:00.420 So you go, you sit down in the Oval Office with him, and something remarkable happened.

01:31:06.220 For 20 minutes, what did he do?

01:31:09.260 Listen.

01:31:10.660 Literally listened.

01:31:11.600 I was stunned.

01:31:12.180 I was looking forward to the lecture and hopefully only a 40% drop in my approval ratings at home.

01:31:18.780 But that's not what happened.

01:31:20.000 He actually did what people say he never does.

01:31:23.020 And frankly, I've seen him do it almost every time I've been with him.

01:31:26.920 He actually, Megan, he listened.

01:31:29.860 And he didn't just listen waiting for his turn to talk.

01:31:33.400 He listened to the pain and the misery that so many African Americans have had to endure over generations, over a century.

01:31:45.900 And as I talked through my grandfather's life and all the pain and the misery and the misdeeds that came his way, President Trump was silent.

01:31:56.460 And when we finished, he did not embrace necessarily my entire view of race or equality.

01:32:02.580 But he didn't reject it either.

01:32:04.760 He simply said, help me help those I've offended.

01:32:09.620 Now, for the president of the United States, who catches more Hades than the law allows, to say and said, let me tell you what we're going to do.

01:32:23.780 Instead of doing that, he simply said, show me the way.

01:32:27.900 And I offered him something that he understood, which was, let's create by redeveloping poor communities.

01:32:34.780 And he said, I'm a developer.

01:32:37.080 I understand incentives.

01:32:38.520 And literally, we were off to the races.

01:32:41.700 And without his support, we would not have seen in 2019 $29 billion from the private sector invested into the poorest communities across America that led to the lowest level of poverty ever recorded in America and only a 4% gentrification rate in those communities.

01:33:03.380 It's a stunning success story that he gets so little credit for, especially when it comes to the important topic of race and fairness in America.

01:33:11.740 Well, he and you, because you've been trying to sell that for a long, long time.

01:33:16.480 And you had no takers in the Oval Office prior to President Trump.

01:33:20.800 Truth.

01:33:21.140 Who, it was sort of divine right order, right?

01:33:24.240 Because it's like you point out, suddenly, without even realizing it, you were talking his language.

01:33:29.100 Development, this is his business, right?

01:33:31.040 So he was like, yes, I get it.

01:33:32.460 Let's do tax incentives for these big corporations to want to build in these opportunity zones, which tend to be largely minority, these inner city pockets that have dealt with more blight than they have opportunity.

01:33:44.680 And that's what happened.

01:33:46.140 He made it happen.

01:33:47.120 It was stunning.

01:33:47.660 And frankly, when I think about even in my little state of South Carolina, the greatest state in all of the nation, the one thing I can tell you without any question is you go to a rural part of South Carolina called Hampton County.

01:33:57.880 They haven't seen 100 jobs created probably in the last five years because of Opportunity Zones.

01:34:03.400 There's this new thing called an Agricultural Tech Center being developed in rural South Carolina.

01:34:09.700 $300 million investment.

01:34:12.240 1,500 new jobs, permanent jobs, plus construction jobs, all because President Trump and I got together in the Oval Office after an obstacle.

01:34:22.660 And we turned that obstacle into opportunities.

01:34:25.740 And that's why I'm so, so convinced that America's greatest days are ahead of her.

01:34:30.500 When two people who disagree on something can do it without being disagreeable, we can see the most remarkable things happen in the greatest country on earth.

01:34:39.460 And when you read America, a redemption story, you'll hear more of those stories where the success of this nation came right after a failure, where the obstacles that we have all had to endure as a country presented the best opportunities.

01:34:53.260 And the pain of our past has become the promise of our amazing future.

01:34:57.260 I think it's so insightful because I do think that, you know, to see them go after Trump again, it's like he's already had to deal with the ruination attempted of his first term.

01:35:11.020 Yes.

01:35:11.680 You know, with the Russiagate, which did not hold up, put it mildly.

01:35:15.060 Zero.

01:35:15.380 Two impeachments, the criminal prosecutions, the going after his family, his close advisors.

01:35:21.940 You know, half of his administration has now been publicly embarrassed by Merrick Garland's DOJ and cuffs and, you know, prosecuting people for contempt of Congress when they never did that under Democratic organizations or representation.

01:35:34.520 In any event, I think people have had it like this is a bridge too far what they're doing to him.

01:35:39.420 He he he's rough around the edges.

01:35:41.560 Yes. I of all people know that. And you can do the mean tweets and all that.

01:35:46.100 But there's a bigger story about President Trump.

01:35:50.360 And it's exactly that Opportunity Zone story.

01:35:52.600 It's what he did, what he made up for in sort of finesse, I guess, for lack of a better word, what he lacked in finesse.

01:36:00.740 He made up for in policy that actually changed lives.

01:36:04.460 I could tell you the same story about women, you know, in the Anti-Sex Trafficking Act, which they could not get through with any other president.

01:36:11.400 But then Donald J. Trump, despite his some of his language about women and some of the accusations that have been made against him, he's the one who got it through.

01:36:17.880 Right. So it's like these Democrats have been told a story that is agenda driven by the MSNBCs of the world.

01:36:25.260 And the consequences of that are in the news every day.

01:36:28.940 This is just the latest example.

01:36:30.040 Well, Megan, you said it right. And one of the most important things that you've said is how exhausted Americans are with all the division, with all the sniping back and forth.

01:36:40.840 It's one thing to target someone, but to target them for every single day of their administration and every single day after they've left.

01:36:49.440 It's exhausting to watch whether you're a Republican or Democrat, whether you are conservative or progressive.

01:36:55.340 The one thing we should all want is a consistent standard of justice applied to all Americans.

01:37:00.320 And the one thing that we're seeing today is the contrast between justice for those we like and and justice for those we don't like.

01:37:07.580 And frankly, we know that if there are two standards, there's only injustice.

01:37:10.820 There is no justice. And one of the things I struggle with through the book was the injustices that I felt that I was a victim of.

01:37:17.860 And my grandfather walking to me one day and said, you're never a victim.

01:37:22.600 There may you may have been victimized in your life, but you have to choose today.

01:37:26.960 Are you a victim? Are you going to be victorious?

01:37:30.260 There's only one road ahead. If you're going to be a victim, you will always be a victim.

01:37:35.300 And if you're going to be victorious, you will have to overcome the challenges that present themselves in your face.

01:37:41.540 And I'm thinking to myself, my grandfather born in 1921 in Sally, South Carolina, in the deep south, stepping off of a sidewalk.

01:37:50.520 If a white person was coming, this is the guy that's telling me not to be bitter and to never be a victim.

01:37:56.180 The man that was forced to stop his education in the third grade, who never learned to read, is telling me, don't let what people call you decide what you answer to.

01:38:07.020 This is a man whose wisdom was beyond my years and his years combined.

01:38:12.420 But it was a man who had so much faith in America that somehow, some way, his children and his grandchildren would experience a very different America.

01:38:22.980 And I am so thankful that I am. I'm experiencing in many ways the best of what America is.

01:38:28.600 And as you look at my grandfather and you look at my mother, you just know that the scars that they bear, I am now able to use that scar tissue to make it easier for the next generation.

01:38:40.880 It shouldn't be about those of us in elected office. It shouldn't be about a swamp in Washington.

01:38:46.020 It shouldn't be about the capitals in the nations, the capitals around the country.

01:38:50.180 It should be about the people. The people are our greatest blessing, not those who are in government.

01:38:58.640 The whole book is has the same tone in that you could easily look back at your grandfather's life, your dad's experience, your mom's experience and say, this is a racist country.

01:39:10.500 And, you know, there is no redemption. And instead, you see it very differently.

01:39:15.400 You see it as, yes, there's racism. There always there always has been. But we are making steady progress.

01:39:20.940 We appeal to our better angels. We've been going in the direction of the angels steadily for the past hundred years.

01:39:26.840 Plus, and my grandfather's story and my family story is evidence of that.

01:39:31.540 One of the stories that stood out to me is, you know, you point out that the guy who held your Senate seat for, I don't know how many years, a couple of generations ago.

01:39:42.340 Yes. Cottonhead. Yes. 1.00

01:39:44.040 Can you tell us to make that point? Because I was like, my God, that's very illuminating.

01:39:48.380 So, man, Cottonhead, I believe it was what we called him, had my seat, gosh, two generations ago. 0.63

01:39:56.340 And he was an avowed racist who literally was undeniably wanting blacks out of the country and certainly out of any leadership positions.

01:40:06.460 And one of the stories I tell there is that I now have that man's seat because it was never his seat. 0.88

01:40:12.540 Like, it's not my seat. The seat always belongs to the American people or in South Carolina to the to the Gamecock fans.

01:40:20.820 And I guess the Tiger fans as well. But the truth is that in America, political seats continues to evolve.

01:40:30.020 Thanks for joining us today. I want to remind you that tomorrow will be my lengthy sit down with former President Donald Trump.

01:40:37.480 Don't miss it. If you'd like to hear it live for the very first time, tune in at noon east on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 111.

01:40:46.760 And then all video platforms like YouTube, Rumble and Facebook and all audio platforms, including Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, Pandora, all of it, will have it shortly after the show airs live, per usual.

01:41:00.160 See you then.

01:41:00.720 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - September 13, 2023

DeSantis, Vivek, Haley, Scott - A Megyn Kelly Show Look at Past Interviews With GOP Candidates ｜ Ep. 626

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