Ron DeSantis is a former Florida governor who served as the governor of Florida from 2011 to 2017. He is now running for the 2020 Republican presidential nomination. In this episode of The Megyn Kelly Show, Ron talks about his transition from Governor to a presidential candidate, why he's running for president, and why he thinks he can beat Hillary Clinton in 2020.
00:03:22.300They think that you're too close to the Paul Ryan, Karl Rove wing of the party and that if they elect you, you'll be too beholden to the big money donors inside the Republican Party.
00:05:30.280But he says specifically that you got elected governor because of him, that you were dead in the race, and that you, quote, came over and begged him for an endorsement with tears coming down from your eyes.
00:12:31.040But how is that a departure from there?
00:12:32.700And how does the state get involved in that?
00:12:34.400How is that something that is helping their shareholders or helping their companies value?
00:12:40.620But how is that for you to weigh in on?
00:12:42.600Because I have people in Florida that were injured by the company's decline as a result of that.
00:12:48.300These are people that rely on the pension.
00:12:51.840Disney is a different issue than this.
00:12:56.040But we have to say companies should do their job.
00:12:59.400If they depart from that and they harm people, then you have an opportunity to potentially have recourse.
00:13:05.280Now, Disney was an issue where they came after the state of Florida when we were doing fortifying parental rights, saying at that time it was K through three, no gender ideology or any of that in the schools.
00:13:35.420So we stood up and we said, no, we're going to do what's best for students and parents.
00:13:39.840We're not going to tout out of Disney.
00:13:41.760Then after I signed the bill, they put out a statement saying they were going to make it a mission to see that the bill was repealed or overturned in court.
00:13:50.140So they said they were taking their corporate resources to basically attack parents' rights in Florida and overturn a court state policy.
00:14:06.680And then when you looked at what they got, unbelievable arrangement that they had that no other individual or no other company in the entire state enjoyed.
00:14:16.020So Florida, for many decades ago, was joined at the hip with this one company.
00:14:20.720They started going down the road of sexualizing children.
00:14:24.080We just could not be joined at the hip with a company that was doing that.
00:14:28.420That's antithetical to our values in Florida.
00:14:31.440So what we said is, you don't get to control your own government.
00:14:34.620You don't get to be exempt from laws and taxes.
00:14:37.160You're going to live under the same laws as everybody else.
00:14:39.560You're going to be treated like SeaWorld.
00:14:40.880You're going to be treated like Universal.
00:16:41.860I mean, it was, first of all, we didn't actually do anything to Disney.
00:16:44.760There was a government that had been in place that they had effectively corrupted, which was not the way it was supposed to be, by the way, if you look at how this started in 68.
00:16:54.080So we changed the governing structure, which really didn't even impact them directly.
00:16:59.400They're just indirectly, they don't like it because, you know, they don't get to call the shots anymore.
00:17:03.260But they are not entitled to corporate welfare.
00:17:06.040You do not have a constitutional right to corporate welfare.
00:17:08.380I know that, but it's not about an entitlement.
00:17:11.100If I go to my boss and I say, you sexually harassed me, and then suddenly he reduces my salary from $200,000 to $100,000, that's retaliation.
00:17:31.800But this is the state taking away a benefit.
00:17:33.780But your position is basically that Florida should be forced to subsidize Disney regardless of how it's going to use those subsidies so that they can weaponize the subsidies they get from the state and turn it against state policy.
00:17:48.420Why would we want to subsidize that behavior?
00:17:50.380Why should Florida taxpayers have to underwrite that?
00:17:53.300But I don't want a President Gavin Newsom doing this to conservative companies or companies who have a more conservative viewpoint.
00:18:00.460I don't think there's any arrangement in America that mirrored the arrangement Disney had in Florida for many, many decades.
00:18:08.140I mean, I think it was a unique situation where we just could not justify how could you be exempt from laws that every other company in business has to follow an individual?
00:18:32.600If you lived in a subdivision outside of Disney, they actually had the right to seize your property if they wanted to expand beyond the district.
00:18:41.480So this was something that was just totally, totally unjustifiable.
00:18:45.320But it lived on in Florida for many, many decades because they were just so powerful.
00:18:49.800But take apart all of the stuff with the sexualization of children, all that.
00:18:54.680Just on the merits, was this an arrangement that was justifiable?
00:20:02.660The New York Times reports that you were actually behind that ad, your campaign.
00:20:05.640You definitely promoted it and defended it.
00:20:08.200Do you think that Trump is soft on this issue, the issue of trans rights versus women's rights?
00:20:14.080Well, I think that what was pointed out there was he had been a pioneer in injecting men into women's competitions.
00:20:21.300Because he was doing that with beauty pageants way, way back in the day, 10 years ago or whatnot.
00:20:27.100And then he's also opposed things like protecting locker rooms and bathrooms when he was running.
00:20:32.320He said North Carolina shouldn't have done that when they did it.
00:20:35.140So that, I think, is not where our voters are on that.
00:20:38.320I think our voters believe that standing up for women and girls means protecting their right to compete with integrity and protecting things like bathrooms and locker rooms.
00:20:48.340And so he just had been very clear on that issue.
00:20:51.260And I don't think that's where our voters are.
00:21:00.140I mean, I think that, you know, it wasn't just that, you know, he had kind of a flippant opinion on it.
00:21:05.740I mean, you know, he was really one of the leaders in making this a big issue culturally and nationally.
00:21:11.480Speaking of that campaign ad, one of the complaints I've heard about the DeSantis team is they're too online.
00:21:18.760There was the Twitter spaces launch, yes.
00:21:20.540But it was it's more about the petty Twitter squabbles that we see some connected with your campaign having that will take up three days of the news cycle that don't really amount to anything substantive for the voters in Iowa and elsewhere.
00:21:53.660But I mean, but but, you know, we have people shooting at us, too, online every single day.
00:21:57.960I mean, the fact that you asked about people like Paul Ryan, you know, that was that's all a manufactured online controversy instead of attacks that have no basis in reality.
00:22:08.860And so there is need to kind of push back on some of this stuff.
00:26:44.200I mean, I think everybody agrees right now in the midst of a war, it's not time.
00:26:47.000But Joe Biden was saying they're not ready.
00:26:49.180And I heard you on Cavuto yesterday saying there's no reason Ukraine should not be part of NATO.
00:26:53.960And this, of course, makes you more hawkish on this issue than some of your competitors in the GOP race, because the pushback on it, as you know, Ambassador, would be World War III, right?
00:27:06.020That it's extremely provocative to Vladimir Putin, even more so than we have been, to actually make them a part of Ukraine, a part of NATO.
00:27:15.260We would have no choice but to defend them in further provocations down the line if they got into further skirmishes with Putin.
00:27:23.680And it could literally lead to World War III with a nuclear power.
00:28:50.960Ukraine has shown that they are a force when it comes to military, when it comes to will, when it comes to might, and when it comes to strategy.
00:28:58.780And so, you look back at where we are, Russia had gained 27% of Ukraine's territory.
00:29:07.140Now, Ukraine has got it back down to 12%.
00:29:10.120We know Putin's hit rock bottom when he's getting drones from Iran and missiles from North Korea.
00:29:15.740They've raised the draft age in Russia to 65.
00:29:19.200And then this monster of a military that he created with the Wagner Group, you know, now suddenly turned on the guy that thought he was invincible.
00:29:27.660And now he realizes he's actually vulnerable.
00:29:30.640The strength of NATO and those countries to say, you know what, we do want Ukraine to be a part of this,
00:29:36.360would have sent a massive red flag to Putin that, oh, no, now they're going in there, too.
00:29:41.780There's nothing he fears more than the alliance that is NATO.
00:29:46.240And we have to, you know, I think that it was a missed opportunity altogether because we actually could have worked on ending this war quicker had they gone and been strong on, yes, we're going to want Ukraine into NATO.
00:29:56.440They've shown that they deserve to be there and that they have the will to defend freedom in this country, in their country.
00:30:04.140Prior to that announcement by the Biden administration, it sounds like you think they've been handling this war well.
00:30:08.000That Ukraine has been handling it well.
00:30:13.120That Joe Biden has been that Joe Biden's been doing the making the right moves when it comes to Ukraine from your own description that you just said.
00:30:35.300Trump had arranged for equipment and ammunition to go to Ukraine in March and then again in May of that year before he invaded.
00:30:44.420Biden pulled that because he didn't want to provoke Putin.
00:30:48.180There again, you missed the opportunity.
00:30:50.760What they should have done was shown that we were going to have the backs of Ukraine so that it would prevent Putin from doing that.
00:30:57.240But the biggest mistake that Biden made was none of this, whether it's Iran building a bomb, North Korea testing ballistic missiles, whether it's Russia invading Ukraine, whether it's China on the march.
00:31:09.560None of that would have happened had we not had that debacle in Afghanistan.
00:31:17.100The idea that he and his military brothers and sisters had to watch America leave Bagram Air Force Base in the middle of the night without telling our allies who stood shoulder to shoulder with us for decades because we asked them to be there.
00:31:31.840Think about what that told our friends.
00:31:34.000But more importantly, think about what that told our enemies.
00:31:36.700It was after that, that Russia went on aggression with Ukraine.
00:31:41.240It was after that, that China started really getting aggressive with Taiwan.
00:33:29.840In March of 2022, 51 percent of Republicans deemed Russians invasion a major threat to U.S. interests.
00:33:36.260Today, it's only 28 percent of Republicans, according to a recent pupil, who see this as a major threat to our interests.
00:33:42.520So the Republican Party is turning on this war.
00:33:46.640This, as the Biden administration, sends cluster munitions to Ukraine, which have been banned by over 100 countries, including very close American allies like the U.K., like Canada.
00:33:56.860They don't like these cluster munitions that basically open up a bunch of grenades on a on a country that could then explode later when children are playing in the field.
00:34:04.440Children are playing in the field and so on.
00:34:06.000Do you support cluster munitions, despite the fact that Republicans are waning in their support for this war?
00:34:10.140Well, first, I want to answer the first premise you said about Republicans.
00:34:15.180You know, keep in mind that dictators always tell you exactly what they're going to do.
00:34:21.100You know, China said they were going to invade Hong Kong and or China said they were going to take Hong Kong.
00:34:26.120They did. Russia said they were going to invade Ukraine.
00:34:38.360That is what we are trying to prevent.
00:34:40.500And so this is not about what politics is saying.
00:34:43.920This is about the fact that that same mentality of us saying we shouldn't defend Ukraine is the exact same mentality that you the Europeans had when they talked about letting Nord Stream to go through.
00:34:55.540When they allow when Germany got really close and and allowed themselves to get close to Russia.
00:35:01.660You can never let an enemy advance at all, because if you're naive and you think, oh, but we're going to provoke them.
00:35:08.740That's the wrong mentality because they will go and pull the rug out from under you.
00:35:13.280And we can't be so naive that this isn't going to happen later.
00:35:16.500The biggest issue with Russia winning is China's aggression.
00:35:20.180And China has been preparing for war with America forever.
00:36:36.000Russia went into this freedom-loving country.
00:36:38.200So, no, I don't think it's realistic to say that you can settle this in 24 hours.
00:36:43.920But I will tell you what would have settled this really quickly is if the U.S. and Biden and NATO would have been stronger on the fact that, yes, they are going to let Ukraine into NATO.
00:36:55.660Because, one, that would have encouraged Zelensky to start being able to say to his people, look, we're going to be able to defend ourselves going forward.
00:37:03.260And he would start looking at an exit strategy.
00:37:05.800And Putin would have started looking at an exit strategy.
00:37:41.620They said it was a great meeting, which means China got something out of it.
00:37:45.040You've got, you know, Janet Yellen goes and says, oh, we should get closer to China.
00:37:48.940So they roll out the red carpet and then they go and say, oh, but we scolded China because she said this shouldn't be a winner take all scenario.
00:37:56.700This should be a situation where we can play by fair rules.
00:38:01.600This should be a situation where we see each other's competitors.
00:38:04.480That right there shows that you don't understand China.
00:38:07.640China lives by winner take all scenario.
00:38:16.040And if you want to know how, look at how they have already infiltrated our country and how the lack of any sort of response to this has been.
00:38:25.100They have bought up 400,000 acres of U.S. soil, most recently near Grand Forks Air Force Base, where our most sensitive drone technology is.
00:38:33.560They have continued to send fentanyl to the cartel.
00:38:36.780They know exactly what they're doing as Americans get killed.
00:38:40.020They are infiltrating our universities by sending millions of dollars as they go through that.
00:38:44.960They have Chinese front companies lobbying our Congress on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party.
00:38:51.560There are items, sensitive technology items that we should not be sending China because it helps them build up their military.
00:38:59.780But instead, Commerce Department has that list.
00:39:02.940But Biden approved 70 percent of those requests to go to China last year.
00:39:08.040Then you go and you look at their military.
00:39:25.320She should have asked about all the infiltration they're doing in our country and asking them what they're going to do about it and made them answer for that.
00:39:32.320But none of the Biden administration has made them accountable for anything from COVID to fentanyl to stealing our intellectual property to a spy center going off the coast of Florida where they will soon send military troops.
00:40:00.280You were being asked about Ron DeSantis's approach to the indoctrination of children in schools with sexual talk and gender talk and so on.
00:40:09.580And he's basically said with the misnamed Don't Say Gay Bill, we're not having that.
00:40:14.460We're not going to talk about sexuality.
00:40:16.240We're not going to talk about gender ideology at the young grades.
00:41:52.060What could be done about that from the White House?
00:41:55.840First of all, I think that, you know, as as president, what I will do is governors should have more control.
00:42:03.140And the best way to deal with it is presidents typically meet with their governors once a year.
00:42:07.740I will meet with our governors once a quarter, Republican and Democrat, with the sole goal of sending as much as we can down to the states when it comes to education, when it comes to health care, when it comes to benefits.
00:42:21.480I know as a governor that what I needed in South Carolina was different than what someone needed in Florida or New Hampshire or anything else.
00:42:29.880When we go and we allow the people to have better control, let the states decide these things.
00:42:35.060That way you reduce the size of the Department of Education, you reduce the size of the federal government as a whole, and you empower the people.
00:42:43.540And, you know, that's what we should be doing.
00:42:45.560What everybody doesn't realize, we still have 90 percent of our kids undergoing critical race theory, which if a little girl goes into kindergarten, if she's white, you're telling her she's bad.
00:42:54.380If she's brown or black, you're telling her she's never going to be good enough.
00:43:15.180Let's send them the funds down because I think we need to put vocational classes back in our high school so that we start building things again.
00:43:23.020The vocational classes in South Carolina, where we make a lot of things, is going to be very different than the vocational classes in another state.
00:43:30.680And so I'm all about empowering the people and empowering the states and reducing the size of the federal government and getting that power out of D.C.
00:43:38.720DeSantis has taken some political fire for the fight with Disney.
00:43:41.860Disney rose up in response to this law and said, we're going to fight it.
00:43:45.260We're going to try to get it reversed.
00:43:48.220And then he got into this battle where he's trying to change the tax laws.
00:43:52.260And it's ongoing between DeSantis and Disney.
00:43:55.000A lot of Republicans love this because it just shows that he's willing to fight.
00:43:57.880They're sick of these woke corporations running roughshod over Republicans in particular and certainly Republican lawmakers.
00:44:04.460You've said in the past you would have just picked up the phone and called Disney, that you're not particularly in favor of the way DeSantis has been handling it.
00:44:12.380But realistically, Disney wasn't going to back down in response to a phone call.
00:44:17.580They're under so much pressure from so many different constituencies to fight these fights.
00:44:23.220And that woke ideology has risen up from within and from outside and their ESG scores and all of that.
00:44:28.520So, I mean, how honestly could a phone call have avoided this battle?
00:44:33.200So it's not just that a phone call would have avoided the battle.
00:44:36.100I mean, what I am saying is, look, I agree with DeSantis on the fact that gender should not be talked about in schools.
00:44:58.520What I was saying is, as a governor, when I always partnered with my businesses, there were times my businesses wanted to they disagreed with me on things.
00:45:08.920I would go pick up the phone and I'd call them and say, look, this is where I am.
00:45:32.620I think taxpayer dollars should be spent making sure that we, you know, do what government's supposed to do, which is just protect the rights and freedoms of the people, not be all things to all people.
00:45:42.900And I just think if he wants to get into a lawsuit back and forth using taxpayer dollars, he has the right to do that.
00:45:51.1002024, you are pulling behind, as you know, the who I've respectfully refer to Trump as the gorilla because he's the 800 pound gorilla in the race who, you know, nobody seems to get past.
00:46:05.420And I know that you've said, look, you know, it's early and that these polls don't tend to settle until after Labor Day.
00:46:12.140But we went back and just looked for one year.
00:46:14.640What happened after Labor Day in 2015 when he was the leader?
00:46:17.700He was never not the leader in the Real Clear Politics national average from prior, from early that summer to the day he won the presidency.
00:46:26.200So what exactly do you expect to change this time around?
00:46:29.380Because I'll tell you right now, nationally, he's beating you by 49 points in Iowa, by 44 points in New Hampshire, by 40 points, even in your home state of South Carolina, by 29 points.
00:46:40.840I'm very comfortable with where we are.
00:46:42.880We had a few benchmarks that we had to overcome.
00:46:45.400We wanted to have a good announcement.
00:46:46.760We had thousands of people show up in Charleston, South Carolina, which sent us on our way.
00:46:51.080We have we wanted to be well received in Iowa, New Hampshire.
00:46:54.340I was just in the north country of New Hampshire.
00:46:56.660We've done 39 events in New Hampshire, 25 in Iowa.
00:46:59.600I'm getting ready to go back to Iowa again.
00:47:01.920And we wanted to show financial strength.
00:47:03.980And our campaign and our supporting organizations have raised over $34 million.
00:47:09.320We've had one hundred and sixty thousand donations from all 50 states.
00:47:13.280We will be on that debate stage, which I guess will be which my guess will be with five or six other people.
00:50:52.600Vivek Ramaswamy has been on the program four times since we launched, including a fun debate with David Sachs about bailing out Silicon Valley Bank.
00:51:04.100Remember that? That was back in episode 510.
00:51:06.960But in this clip from episode 539, it is after he had declared for president in April of this year.
00:51:12.880We talk about his media strategy, including maybe being the final straw in Don Lemon's time at CNN.
00:51:18.760That's reason enough to vote for Vivek, as well as how his woke ink message was resonating with voters, particularly after the Bud Light debacle.
00:51:27.720So you went on CNN because you said very openly you'll go on anywhere.
00:51:33.740You're running for president. You'll talk to anybody. And it didn't go particularly well.
00:51:37.260Here's a little bit about you challenge of Don challenging you on your appearance at the NRA.
00:51:43.720And Don Lemon takes issue with your opinions on this issue because you're not a black man.
00:51:50.900You said something about American history and race.
00:51:53.640And I guess you're not allowed to opine on that unless you have black skin, according to Don Lemon.
00:52:06.260You're making people think that the Civil War was fought for black people, only for black people to get guns and for black people to have rights.
00:52:11.460The Civil War was fought for black people in this country to get freedoms, a noble mission.
00:52:15.400Black people secured their freedoms after the Civil War.
00:52:20.500Only after their Second Amendment rights were secured.
00:52:22.480You are discounting Reconstruction, you're discounting a whole host of things that happened after the Civil War when it comes to African Americans,
00:52:30.080including the whole reason that the Civil Rights Movement happened.
00:52:33.380It's because black people did not secure their freedoms after the Civil War and that things turned around.
00:52:37.900People tried to change the freedoms that were supposed to happen after the Civil War.
00:52:54.280We didn't even include the best part where he basically says, you know, he basically suggests he has a higher claim to the argument because of skin color.
00:53:21.620The part that I find insulting is when you say today black Americans don't have those rights after we have gone through civil rights revolution in this country.
00:53:28.680You are sitting here telling an African American about the rights and what you find insulting, about the way I live, the skin I live in every day.
00:53:36.460Here's where you and I have a different point of view.
00:53:37.400And I know the freedoms that black and white, that black people don't have in this country and that black people do have.
00:53:41.800Well, here's where you and I have a different point of view.
00:53:43.440I think we should be able to express our views regardless of the color of our skin.
00:53:46.420We should have this debate without me regarding you as a black man, but me regarding you as a fellow citizen.
00:54:23.060You were not trying to speak on behalf of black people.
00:54:25.420You were talking about America's history.
00:54:28.240And the reason I go through that exercise, Vivek, is there are several reports out today that that was the last straw for CNN management.
00:54:36.500If you watch the longer clip go on, you will see Poppy Harlow trying to give you a nice goodbye, saying, we'll talk about China the next time you come on.
00:54:45.140We'll get more into depth on your policies.
00:54:47.320And Don Lemon clearly wanted to move right on, saying, goodbye.
00:55:00.920And I think that that's a net positive.
00:55:02.900Look, I actually want to be really clear about this.
00:55:05.200It all comes down to what the mission of your organization is.
00:55:08.700If CNN's mission is to advance a woke progressive orthodoxy, Don Lemon is a perfectly fine host to have on air to cut off guests, to tell people they can't speak based on the color of their skin.
00:55:19.400Because that does represent a worldview that exists in the country.
00:55:22.840So if that's aligned with your mission as an organization, that's a perfectly sensible decision to keep that person.
00:55:27.980But what Chris Licht, the new CEO of CNN, who I've met, who I've had an open exchange and dialogue with, you know, a number of weeks or months ago, if he means what he says, and it sounds like he does, that they want to be moved towards being a more open platform for diverse views, then I don't think that type of host actually makes sense in that organization.
00:55:46.380So to me, it's not just about cancel culture in the other direction and saying that, hey, Don Lemon, it's a good thing he's fired.
00:55:52.300The question is, what's your purpose as an organization?
00:55:54.160And if CNN's purpose is to air multiple different perspectives on air, then I think that you can't have TV hosts who tell guests, whoever they are, that they can't speak or express an idea about post-Civil War reconstruction history in America without thinking about what their skin color or race is first.
00:56:11.880The good thing about me, Megan, is I didn't take particular offense to that exchange.
00:56:25.460I think it's actually really important that we surface some of these dogmas and unspoken expectations that have otherwise been simmering beneath the surface of American discourse.
00:56:35.600I'm all in favor of actually speaking those hard truths.
00:56:39.780I think we need to do that as part of our, let's just say, national self-therapy to get to a place where it's not the way that other guests might have approached it to say that, well, because Don Lemon is black and we're talking about a sensitive issue relating to the history of African-Americans in this country, I'm going to tread around that differently.
00:57:00.680But what was amazing was he had the nerve to call you out on that as though it were improper, that you as a brown skinned man didn't have a working knowledge of U.S. history when it comes to American black people enough to opine on it while sitting across from a black man.
00:57:20.900I mean, that there was some sort of racial hierarchy that would have required you to defer to his opinions about America's history, about historical fact.
00:57:32.520So that is what the theory of intersectionality, as you well know, is all about.
00:57:37.340There's a hierarchy of whether you're an oppressor or whether you're oppressed.
00:57:41.300And if you're lower on that hierarchy, according to that set of rules, you have to either step up and stand up and speak or step back, as they say in their language of the woke movement, to step back and not speak, to give the person of the lower rung on that ladder the chance to speak.
00:57:59.780Everyone's voice and vote counts equally in the open debate and marketplace of ideas.
00:58:04.020But in the case of Don Lemon, I was on set with him, Megan.
00:58:06.640I can tell you what I actually saw happening was that his head exploded a little bit when there were two conflicting ideas that I brought to the fore.
00:58:14.120And I didn't want to talk about the NRA speech particularly.
00:58:35.500Is that actually the civil rights of black Americans were never secured until they actually enjoyed Second Amendment protections.
00:58:43.140In fact, part of the black codes that were passed in the Reconstruction era were designed to take guns and gun ownership rights away from black Americans.
00:58:52.960The Dred Scott decision, which preceded the Civil War, Chief Justice Taney famously and ignominiously said that part of the reason black people couldn't be citizens in this country is because it would give them the right to own guns.
00:59:05.500So this is fundamental stuff, even in Supreme Court doctrine.
00:59:08.500So I was exposing that history, but that made Don Lemon's head explode because, to him, Second Amendment bad, civil rights good, and I'm committing some sort of cardinal sin by mixing the two together, when it's just a fact of history that actually one was fundamental to securing the other.
00:59:22.460And the audience should know that Vivek went to, in addition to his success on Wall Street and so on, went to Yale Law School.
00:59:27.940I mean, he graduated from Yale Law School.
00:59:30.220You were prepared for a debate or a discussion on that.
00:59:32.420But the irony is, if he actually expected you to cede the arguments to him because he's a black man and you're not, he shouldn't have had you on the show.
00:59:41.420He should have just looked into the camera and offered his own opinions on all these matters.
00:59:45.240He invited you to be interviewed on his program and then got upset when you actually offered your view and explained why you made the claims about gun rights and so on.
00:59:56.120And so his intersectionality approach doesn't work.
01:00:34.180Let's actually stick to our arguments without compromising on our principles, but do it unapologetically in a way that surfaces the actual tension underneath that implicit assumption that other people don't talk about.
01:00:45.580And I think it would be a mistake here to just focus on Don Lemon.
01:00:48.220I mean, he's, I think, look, I think there's better models for how to succeed in your career as a journalist in staying close to the truth than following Don Lemon's path.
01:01:04.520But she basically said the same thing even more concisely than Don Lemon did a couple of years ago when she said, we don't want any more black faces that don't want to be a black voice.
01:01:15.080We don't want any more brown faces that don't want to be a brown voice.
01:01:20.980I don't fit her description of what counts as a brown voice because I reject the premise that your skin color ought to predict anything about the content of the ideas you're allowed to espouse.
01:01:32.680That is definitional racism to say that I can predict something about the content of your ideas based on the color of your skin.
01:01:39.180And yet that's become quietly accepted in much of mainstream culture in America.
01:01:43.500I will say, Megan, though, I'm optimistic.
01:01:45.900I think the fact that we're having this conversation on the back of CNN making the decision to actually remove Don Lemon from air, hopefully replace him with somebody who's a more thoughtful journalist.
01:01:54.860I do think I'm actually quite optimistic that we're a domino effect, a hair's trigger away from a national revival that rejects this woke orthodoxy that's been an assault on American excellence.
01:02:07.100You saw it from Netflix about a year ago after the Dave Chappelle controversy.
01:02:10.740I think this is a good move that Chris Licht has taken at CNN.
01:02:13.980I think if we keep our optimism alive, right, I think a lot of that woke woke ism that has infected institutions over the last several years, people are hungry for something new.
01:02:22.520I think it's up to conservatives in this country.
01:02:24.360This is why I feel called to do it, to lead the way with an affirmative vision of our own, not just being victimized by the victimhood culture.
01:02:31.960But by actually leading the way with our own vision.
01:02:33.440Well, we've heard people like Joy Reid explicitly say about black people in America who have heterodox views on this whole woke ism their skin folk, but not kin folk.
01:02:43.340That's you know, that's how they dismiss anybody who sees things the way you do, but happens to be a black man or a black woman.
01:02:50.120It's absolutely disrespectful and it's racist.
01:02:52.720I do want to ask you, first of all, did you have that conversation with Chris Licht, the new head of CNN, took over for Jeff Zucker after that exchange with Don Lemon on the air?
01:03:15.700Let me show the audience the very, very last part where he, Poppy, tried to save it.
01:03:20.060I mean, this is what you do when you're a co-anchor.
01:03:21.640I've been there with something tense happens.
01:03:24.400You try to diffuse the tension a little, keep things nice with the guest before they leave and say nice goodbye, which she attempted to do.
01:03:30.580And he was clearly irritated by her and he always lets his irritation show.
01:03:34.620This is one of the reasons why that morning show is a disaster.
01:03:37.220They have record low ratings and his co-hosts very clearly can't stand him.
01:03:42.920But here was his last parting remark in the whole exchange to Poppy.
01:03:48.600We appreciate you coming on with due respect.
01:03:51.020Don, I look forward to continuing that conversation.
01:04:18.400There's a report this morning, I think it's in the Daily Mail, talking about how so many staffers at CNN were actually really ticked off and offended by saying, you know, Nikki Haley's past her prime.
01:04:28.260Sorry, a woman's past her prime when she's out of her 20s, 30s, maybe at age 40 and on and on.
01:04:33.280There's lots of examples, Don Lemon, not liking women.
01:04:47.880Megan, there's a funny connection there just to just to briefly draw it.
01:04:50.920So he's a man who feels particularly totally free to talk about when women are or are not in their prime and to criticize women for being women, but somehow believes that if you're not black, you can't actually even make a comment about supposed to war history.
01:05:02.420So there is a certain rich irony in that if you observe it.
01:06:05.920It's like somebody saying to me, like, women didn't actually, they got their right to vote, you know, in 1920, but they didn't actually get their power until 1970.
01:06:13.460And me saying, no, actually, the data show that in the 1960s they were really coming of age.
01:06:17.780And somebody being like, no, actually, the data show that in 1974, that's when it started.
01:06:30.080Thank you for calling it out and giving us a good example of how they operate.
01:06:33.540Now, you mentioned something because crusading against these woke, you know, pushes in corporate media, in corporate America and so on, has been a big issue for you.
01:06:43.800This is one of the reasons why I love what you're doing.
01:06:45.680Um, there's an update in the whole Bud Light disaster today, which is just, I think, spectacular.
01:06:52.320So, of course, their stock price fell in the wake of the boycott after they partnered with trans activist or trans person Dylan Mulvaney.
01:07:00.060And their core audience and core, you know, purchasers revolted across America saying, what are you doing?
01:07:07.080We don't want you dabbling in this stuff.
01:08:27.760However, I think this is an inflection point in these in the battle that you've been fighting and yours truly as well, to a lesser extent, to get these corporations to stay in their lane and just do their thing.
01:08:39.020Sell your beer, sell your facial cream, but stop trying to wokeify America.
01:08:44.480That's what makes America great, is that we have a system of capitalism that is insulated or at least historically has been from partisan politics.
01:08:54.300First of all, that makes companies more successful.
01:08:57.060Bud Light's just one example among many.
01:08:59.120Megan, that's what the whole book is about, the capitalist punishment book that I'm putting that's out today.
01:09:02.860That is about why companies are more successful when they are not encumbered by these environmental and social agendas.
01:09:09.760But there's something even more fundamental than that, Megan, which is that actually Tocqueville, Alexis de Tocqueville, he made this observation about America.
01:09:16.300We're a diverse, divided, democratic society.
01:09:18.660We're not supposed to last for more than a couple of generations, unless there are these apolitical spaces that bind us together, that literally bring us together.
01:09:29.700Bud Light is liquid fuel that brings people together at football games, at parties, across the country.
01:09:36.560When that itself becomes politicized, that's really the beginning of the end of the American experiment, if we lose those apolitical sanctuaries that are supposed to hold us together.
01:09:46.040And Tocqueville said that back then, too, is America requires what he calls these intermediate institutions.
01:10:15.800And I think that we are at a potential turning point here.
01:10:18.900I think people, you know, the woke movement, what it did is the analogy I sometimes have used is it's like when young people are hungry for a cause.
01:10:27.020They tell them you satisfy your moral hunger by going to Ben and Jerry's and ordering a cup of ice cream with some social justice sprinkles on the side.
01:10:34.940I mean, effectively, that's been the culture for the last several years.
01:10:38.320I think that you don't satisfy a moral hunger with fast food.
01:10:43.140You sort of get that hit initially, but then that starts to fade up, fade away, and you still realize you're still hungry, hungry for something more substantial, purpose that you derive from something other than corporate virtue signaling.
01:10:55.060And that's the opportunity in front of us for the conservative movement.
01:10:58.460Can we fill that void with a vision of American identity that's actually more powerful, that dilutes the woke agenda to irrelevance?
01:11:07.000That's a question of whether the conservative movement can rise to that occasion or not.
01:11:10.140That's why I'm in this presidential race.
01:11:11.500The way it used to be in this country.
01:11:32.720But how can a president push us back in that direction?
01:11:37.880Look, I think part of this is there are many hats to wear here.
01:11:40.720One is a policymaking hat, and I can come to that.
01:11:43.480But some of this is through the kind of leadership and national character that you set.
01:11:47.020I don't think we have had a president in this country since Reagan who tied the what, what we're doing, the motions we're going through, to the why, to the principles that actually set the country into motion.
01:11:58.860And I reject this political worldview that both parties seem to espouse, that human beings are somehow just these biological automatons walking around and we're supposed to bean count them to see how they'll vote.
01:12:21.380South Carolina's a bus tour later this week.
01:12:23.840We stop at college campuses on these bus tours.
01:12:25.980I went to one, New England College in New Hampshire, where I was told that other Republican candidates didn't want to show up at some of these college campuses.
01:12:34.760It's because they're going to get the kinds of questions that I got, which aren't that different than interaction with Don Lemon on set.
01:12:39.620But the thing about, unlike Don Lemon, who's making, you know, was making millions of dollars while claiming to be a victim, the difference with young people on these college campuses, they don't really believe the stuff they're fed and spewing back.
01:12:52.380And I think if we can fill that void with even a sense of leadership, talking about understanding that our worst hypocrisies as a nation are actually our best evidence that we have ideals at all, because to be a hypocrite, you at least had to have those ideals.
01:13:06.040I think we bring these people along, Megan, because here's the other thing about being 21 years old or 19 years old.
01:15:27.100Is when Donald Trump was arrested and indicted by Alvin Bragg, a member of Joe Biden's political party.
01:15:32.740If Joe Biden had said what I said at that same time, as somebody who was also running against Trump, that this is a politicized prosecution, it's persecution.
01:15:39.420And even though you shouldn't elect Trump, you know what?
01:15:42.100This is wrong and we should not arrest our political opponents.
01:15:45.460That was his moment for national unity.
01:16:05.980They're a feature for the managerial class who would rather have a hollowed out husk in the White House.
01:16:13.300They're almost needling the American people.
01:16:15.580They're almost needling the citizens of this country, laughing, saying, you know how much we rule you as the managerial class, the three-letter acronomists, bureaucratic soup in Washington, D.C.
01:16:25.440We can put that guy up, barely mentally competent, present even as a human being.
01:16:30.780That's who we can put up, and we're still going to run the show for you.
01:16:41.580It's like the Wizard of Oz, the front man, for a managerial class that's behind it.
01:16:46.200That's really the heart of what's going on, and we might as well see that for what it is.
01:16:50.140And it's also why the DNC, by the way, doesn't want to have debates, because they want to make sure the front man for that managerial class isn't subjected to debate from the likes of RFK or Marianne Williamson or anybody else.
01:17:01.200And so I think it's worth seeing through the farce that somehow this is about Biden and his failure.
01:17:05.800He's just the stooge who's the front man at the end of it.
01:17:09.440Vivek is definitely someone we're going to keep an eye on in the months ahead.
01:18:09.660One of the things that we have to do is tell both sides of the story, see both sides of the ledger.
01:18:14.120And while the president has done some things that I've spoken out against, he's also led one of the greatest economic recoveries and one of the most inclusive economies.
01:18:22.620But at the same time, he sat down with victims, families whose loved ones lost their lives at the hand of police.
01:18:32.600And what I hope from Lady Justice is when the blindfold is on, the scales are balanced.
01:18:40.060And when I'm looking at today, I question whether or not there's a thumb or a foot on the scale when it comes to certain people in certain places that we just don't like.
01:18:55.200We, as Americans, fought for the last 246 years to come to the place where every single person should be judged based on what they do, not who they are, not whether or not we like them.
01:19:08.760And that's what's so stunning and concerning about the current predicament that we see our Justice Department in.
01:19:15.940And remember, last week in the Judiciary Committee, Christopher Wray was testifying about inconsistencies in the FBI.
01:19:26.440So this is not simply about yesterday.
01:19:28.620The precursor to yesterday was this inconsistent application of justice for a very long time.
01:19:36.640And now it's heading to the most powerful regions of this country.
01:19:40.460What does that say to the average person in this nation?
01:20:33.200It's not like you didn't get that it was a serious, dangerous day, a terrible day, but this ongoing obsession with pinning it entirely on Donald Trump and slapping criminal charges on him.
01:20:47.940Well, Megan, there's no doubt I've done a lot of interviews this week trying to make sure that people understand and appreciate what I believe is the future of America.
01:20:56.480It's one of the reasons why America redemption story is so important.
01:20:59.020And in the book, I talk specifically about January the 6th, and I put the blame exactly where it needs to be on the shoulders and in the hearts of those entering the Capitol.
01:21:11.940I put it right where it needs to be as I'm finding an escape route.
01:21:16.520Those pursuing me should be held responsible for their bad and disgusting decisions at times to come out and come against people like me and other senators.
01:21:27.240I think through that day, and the one thing that a lot of media refuses to accept is that the responsibility for individuals is the person in the mirror.
01:21:39.100Not somebody at 1600 Pennsylvania, but literally the person in the mirror is the one that I must hold accountable for hunting me.
01:21:51.080Well, as opposed to suggesting that President Trump somehow persuaded these folks to show up with weapons in hand or guns in their sacks to look for a way to overturn the election,
01:22:02.660I think that the best thing that I can do is to look at the folks coming down the hallway and hold those individuals responsible for their actions.
01:22:11.700It's like my mama used to say when I was a youngster.
01:22:14.080If your friends jump off the bridge, are you jumping off the bridge too?
01:22:33.840There's no doubt about it that the more personally responsible we are, the more liberty we will experience.
01:22:39.420The less we give our lives over to some central control, central command, we'll have a caste system in this nation and those at the bottom will be stuck there.
01:22:49.960And that's what I don't know why we don't see clearly into the future under this current drive where the application of justice is inconsistent, where the rules are changed based on who's on the field.
01:23:03.380That is exactly what we fought against.
01:23:06.620It's exactly why I thought this was the time to write a book about hope and unity forged together through hard work, discipline, perseverance, and tenacity.
01:23:16.880Those characteristics lead us in the right direction, but blaming somebody else, victimhood, those are the things that lead us in the wrong direction.
01:23:24.800You know, I listened to you on CBS this morning with Gayle King, and she was all about, is Donald Trump really the best representative of the Republican Party right now?
01:24:07.540They don't understand that there could possibly be a good man in there who actually cares about the country.
01:24:13.760They see him as entirely narcissistic, selfish, that he doesn't care about the country even a little, that he only cares about getting his name in lights.
01:24:23.520And this is part of the problem because they're willing to do anything to stop such a man from resuming in power.
01:24:30.040Megan, there's no doubt when you think about what you just said, and it's so powerful, clear, and succinct.
01:24:34.760One of the things I do in the books, I walk people through the Donald Trump when the cameras are off.
01:24:42.280I walk people through this experience that I had when President Trump calls my mother on her 75th, I'm sorry, I shouldn't say my mother's age out loud.
01:25:06.440And then they had a conversation for 10 minutes after two minutes of, oh, my God.
01:25:10.440Why people refuse to see that there's a human under the caricature of Donald Trump, I don't understand.
01:25:18.000Why people want to judge others by their actions and we judge ourselves by our intentions, it just doesn't make a lot of sense.
01:25:26.840Especially in the echo chambers of justice.
01:25:30.260I want the echo in our country to sound like fairness.
01:25:33.480I want the view that the average person coming from the poorest neighborhoods have that in America the rules are set.
01:25:40.780And I'm going to judge everybody by the same yardstick, that the same value system that I want for you is the same value system I'm willing to live under.
01:25:50.120And your opening monologue was so important in establishing the inconsistencies that we are seeing in this justice department and the way that justice is being applied to one of the most powerful figures of our time.
01:26:05.180And they get away with it because they've convinced their base he's truly evil and must be stopped.
01:27:30.800This was literally a private exchange with the President of the United States on Air Force One with someone who's been demonized from the day before he took the office, the day before he took the oath.
01:27:43.260There were already headlines about impeaching President Trump.
01:27:46.060And yet we don't see the humanity of the individual.
01:27:49.260And I have been critical of the President when necessary.
01:27:52.300And so I'm not coming with Lady Justice blinders on my eyes.
01:28:00.340And the truth is that I am thankful to live in a country where there is a blindfold on justice.
01:28:06.120I just want us not to peek around the blindfold when it comes to people we don't like or experiences we don't understand.
01:28:13.240In the book, you write about how not only did he give her an insist that she sit in his seat on Air Force One, which she was reluctant to do, who made her, but he sat with her for the whole flight.
01:28:23.500I mean, that's really the thing that got me and chatted her up.
01:28:27.640It was hilarious to look back and peek in on.
01:28:29.480A lot of people in his position, even before he was president, even when he was just a big celebrity, would have said, oh, nice to meet you, glad handing and then moved on and wouldn't want to spend an entire air flight, you know, talking to a stranger who's in her 70s.
01:29:36.780Now show me a better way for the nation.
01:29:39.560Not for those who supported me, because as we talk about opportunities zones in a few minutes, the one thing you'll hear is that the voters that he was helping, the constituents that he helped in that decision were the ones that he offended.
01:29:51.480So he wasn't looking for a way to get them back on the team.
01:29:56.180But he literally went out of his way to hear the painful story and the provocative history of race in this country.
01:30:03.980And at the same time, respond by saying, let's do something that brings opportunities into the most fragile economic communities in this nation.
01:30:15.380It's a great story because you write in the book about how you were not happy with the president's comments, you know, in total in after Charlottesville.
01:30:23.620And he had said, you know, the good people on both sides.
01:30:28.080And he had said that he condemned the white supremacists.
01:30:30.380But a lot of people, especially people in communities of color, were like too close, didn't like it, offended.
01:30:36.500The messaging should have been really clear.
01:30:40.700So you made a comment about that publicly.
01:30:43.400And he called you up and said, let's have a meeting.
01:30:45.780And you write in the book about how you're like, oh, boy, you know, I feel how I feel, but I know what it's like, what's going to come my way.
01:31:29.860And he didn't just listen waiting for his turn to talk.
01:31:33.400He listened to the pain and the misery that so many African Americans have had to endure over generations, over a century.
01:31:45.900And as I talked through my grandfather's life and all the pain and the misery and the misdeeds that came his way, President Trump was silent.
01:31:56.460And when we finished, he did not embrace necessarily my entire view of race or equality.
01:32:04.760He simply said, help me help those I've offended.
01:32:09.620Now, for the president of the United States, who catches more Hades than the law allows, to say and said, let me tell you what we're going to do.
01:32:23.780Instead of doing that, he simply said, show me the way.
01:32:27.900And I offered him something that he understood, which was, let's create by redeveloping poor communities.
01:32:38.520And literally, we were off to the races.
01:32:41.700And without his support, we would not have seen in 2019 $29 billion from the private sector invested into the poorest communities across America that led to the lowest level of poverty ever recorded in America and only a 4% gentrification rate in those communities.
01:33:03.380It's a stunning success story that he gets so little credit for, especially when it comes to the important topic of race and fairness in America.
01:33:11.740Well, he and you, because you've been trying to sell that for a long, long time.
01:33:16.480And you had no takers in the Oval Office prior to President Trump.
01:33:32.460Let's do tax incentives for these big corporations to want to build in these opportunity zones, which tend to be largely minority, these inner city pockets that have dealt with more blight than they have opportunity.
01:33:47.660And frankly, when I think about even in my little state of South Carolina, the greatest state in all of the nation, the one thing I can tell you without any question is you go to a rural part of South Carolina called Hampton County.
01:33:57.880They haven't seen 100 jobs created probably in the last five years because of Opportunity Zones.
01:34:03.400There's this new thing called an Agricultural Tech Center being developed in rural South Carolina.
01:34:12.2401,500 new jobs, permanent jobs, plus construction jobs, all because President Trump and I got together in the Oval Office after an obstacle.
01:34:22.660And we turned that obstacle into opportunities.
01:34:25.740And that's why I'm so, so convinced that America's greatest days are ahead of her.
01:34:30.500When two people who disagree on something can do it without being disagreeable, we can see the most remarkable things happen in the greatest country on earth.
01:34:39.460And when you read America, a redemption story, you'll hear more of those stories where the success of this nation came right after a failure, where the obstacles that we have all had to endure as a country presented the best opportunities.
01:34:53.260And the pain of our past has become the promise of our amazing future.
01:34:57.260I think it's so insightful because I do think that, you know, to see them go after Trump again, it's like he's already had to deal with the ruination attempted of his first term.
01:35:15.380Two impeachments, the criminal prosecutions, the going after his family, his close advisors.
01:35:21.940You know, half of his administration has now been publicly embarrassed by Merrick Garland's DOJ and cuffs and, you know, prosecuting people for contempt of Congress when they never did that under Democratic organizations or representation.
01:35:34.520In any event, I think people have had it like this is a bridge too far what they're doing to him.
01:35:41.560Yes. I of all people know that. And you can do the mean tweets and all that.
01:35:46.100But there's a bigger story about President Trump.
01:35:50.360And it's exactly that Opportunity Zone story.
01:35:52.600It's what he did, what he made up for in sort of finesse, I guess, for lack of a better word, what he lacked in finesse.
01:36:00.740He made up for in policy that actually changed lives.
01:36:04.460I could tell you the same story about women, you know, in the Anti-Sex Trafficking Act, which they could not get through with any other president.
01:36:11.400But then Donald J. Trump, despite his some of his language about women and some of the accusations that have been made against him, he's the one who got it through.
01:36:17.880Right. So it's like these Democrats have been told a story that is agenda driven by the MSNBCs of the world.
01:36:25.260And the consequences of that are in the news every day.
01:36:30.040Well, Megan, you said it right. And one of the most important things that you've said is how exhausted Americans are with all the division, with all the sniping back and forth.
01:36:40.840It's one thing to target someone, but to target them for every single day of their administration and every single day after they've left.
01:36:49.440It's exhausting to watch whether you're a Republican or Democrat, whether you are conservative or progressive.
01:36:55.340The one thing we should all want is a consistent standard of justice applied to all Americans.
01:37:00.320And the one thing that we're seeing today is the contrast between justice for those we like and and justice for those we don't like.
01:37:07.580And frankly, we know that if there are two standards, there's only injustice.
01:37:10.820There is no justice. And one of the things I struggle with through the book was the injustices that I felt that I was a victim of.
01:37:17.860And my grandfather walking to me one day and said, you're never a victim.
01:37:22.600There may you may have been victimized in your life, but you have to choose today.
01:37:26.960Are you a victim? Are you going to be victorious?
01:37:30.260There's only one road ahead. If you're going to be a victim, you will always be a victim.
01:37:35.300And if you're going to be victorious, you will have to overcome the challenges that present themselves in your face.
01:37:41.540And I'm thinking to myself, my grandfather born in 1921 in Sally, South Carolina, in the deep south, stepping off of a sidewalk.
01:37:50.520If a white person was coming, this is the guy that's telling me not to be bitter and to never be a victim.
01:37:56.180The man that was forced to stop his education in the third grade, who never learned to read, is telling me, don't let what people call you decide what you answer to.
01:38:07.020This is a man whose wisdom was beyond my years and his years combined.
01:38:12.420But it was a man who had so much faith in America that somehow, some way, his children and his grandchildren would experience a very different America.
01:38:22.980And I am so thankful that I am. I'm experiencing in many ways the best of what America is.
01:38:28.600And as you look at my grandfather and you look at my mother, you just know that the scars that they bear, I am now able to use that scar tissue to make it easier for the next generation.
01:38:40.880It shouldn't be about those of us in elected office. It shouldn't be about a swamp in Washington.
01:38:46.020It shouldn't be about the capitals in the nations, the capitals around the country.
01:38:50.180It should be about the people. The people are our greatest blessing, not those who are in government.
01:38:58.640The whole book is has the same tone in that you could easily look back at your grandfather's life, your dad's experience, your mom's experience and say, this is a racist country.
01:39:10.500And, you know, there is no redemption. And instead, you see it very differently.
01:39:15.400You see it as, yes, there's racism. There always there always has been. But we are making steady progress.
01:39:20.940We appeal to our better angels. We've been going in the direction of the angels steadily for the past hundred years.
01:39:26.840Plus, and my grandfather's story and my family story is evidence of that.
01:39:31.540One of the stories that stood out to me is, you know, you point out that the guy who held your Senate seat for, I don't know how many years, a couple of generations ago.
01:39:44.040Can you tell us to make that point? Because I was like, my God, that's very illuminating.
01:39:48.380So, man, Cottonhead, I believe it was what we called him, had my seat, gosh, two generations ago.
01:39:56.340And he was an avowed racist who literally was undeniably wanting blacks out of the country and certainly out of any leadership positions.
01:40:06.460And one of the stories I tell there is that I now have that man's seat because it was never his seat.
01:40:12.540Like, it's not my seat. The seat always belongs to the American people or in South Carolina to the to the Gamecock fans.
01:40:20.820And I guess the Tiger fans as well. But the truth is that in America, political seats continues to evolve.
01:40:30.020Thanks for joining us today. I want to remind you that tomorrow will be my lengthy sit down with former President Donald Trump.
01:40:37.480Don't miss it. If you'd like to hear it live for the very first time, tune in at noon east on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 111.
01:40:46.760And then all video platforms like YouTube, Rumble and Facebook and all audio platforms, including Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, Pandora, all of it, will have it shortly after the show airs live, per usual.