The Megyn Kelly Show - Diddy Sentencing, Robinson Death Penalty Potential, and D4vd Trunk Mystery, with MK True Crime Contributors ｜ Ep. 1163

00:00:00.580 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east.

00:00:12.240 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.360 Today is a mega Kelly's court where we are going to bring in our friends from MK True Crime on the MK Media Podcast Network.

00:00:23.020 If you're not subscribed, go on over to wherever you get your podcasts, type in MK True Crime,

00:00:27.160 and then hit subscribe or follow, and it comes out twice a week.

00:00:30.840 It's a crime podcast, comes out twice a week with all of our Kelly's Court stars, and it's doing great.

00:00:38.780 And we begin today with breaking news.

00:00:40.820 The Sean Diddy Combs sentencing hearing is going on at this moment in a Manhattan federal courtroom.

00:00:46.980 We are live on Sirius XM at noon east right now.

00:00:50.260 A jury acquitted Diddy in July of racketeering conspiracy and two counts of sex trafficking,

00:00:57.880 but it found him guilty of two counts of transportation to engage in prostitution.

00:01:03.940 At trial, the music mogul's ex-girlfriends testified that they were pressured by him to have sex with male escorts

00:01:10.020 in drug-dazed marathon sessions known as freak-offs, hotel nights, and debauchery.

00:01:16.260 They also testified that he beat the living daylights out of them when they didn't want to do it.

00:01:23.140 There are a wide range of outcomes for Diddy today.

00:01:25.880 He could be released for time served.

00:01:28.380 He's served, I think, 13 months so far.

00:01:31.100 He could get a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison.

00:01:36.060 I don't think anybody really expects that.

00:01:38.440 Or the judge could go someplace in the middle.

00:01:41.060 Prosecutors have asked for 11 years and three months.

00:01:44.320 Yes, Diddy's attorneys say he should get a total of 14 months,

00:01:49.260 meaning he would be out of prison in time for Christmas with the 13 months served.

00:01:54.500 And so far this morning, it's ongoing at this moment.

00:01:56.680 So far, it does not look great for Diddy.

00:02:00.040 The judge reportedly ruled that he, the judge, can and will consider

00:02:04.380 some of the conduct that Diddy was acquitted of.

00:02:08.700 In other words, he wasn't, the jury didn't say he didn't do these things.

00:02:11.840 They just said it didn't amount to racketeering or sex trafficking.

00:02:15.300 And so the judge is saying he will consider some of these underlying facts

00:02:18.760 that were put in evidence toward those charges, including the accusation that he coerced women.

00:02:25.300 That means the sentencing guidelines are between 70 and 87 months of incarceration.

00:02:32.120 We're talking seven, eight years.

00:02:33.800 The judge is still free to go above or below those guidelines, though.

00:02:37.800 And he's still in the middle of hearing arguments from both sides.

00:02:40.980 So we begin today with MK True Crime contributors Matt Murphy and Mark Garagos.

00:02:46.220 Garagos' daughter, Tenny, is a chip off the old block. 0.77

00:02:49.520 She is one of Diddy's attorneys who got, yes, there was a conviction of Diddy,

00:02:53.840 but she definitely got him acquitted of the far more serious charges.

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00:04:21.760 Guys, welcome.

00:04:23.520 Welcome.

00:04:23.860 Boy, you didn't find another defense lawyer for me today.

00:04:28.200 You had to bring prosecutorial backup as we're talking about Diddy.

00:04:32.680 I mean, talk about a wingman having Murphy here to talk Diddy with you. 1.00

00:04:37.440 It's got to be fair and balanced, Mark.

00:04:39.300 We can't just give you a pass.

00:04:40.500 We got to make you sing for your supper.

00:04:42.960 Well, can I say one thing?

00:04:45.600 Yeah.

00:04:45.960 I was just going to say, Megan, you hit it on the head.

00:04:49.440 I'm obviously not in the courtroom.

00:04:51.280 I'm sitting right here with you.

00:04:52.860 But if I'm sitting in the courtroom and my poor daughter who's sitting there cooking up my next grandchild, I cannot tell you how bad that decision is by the judge.

00:05:08.780 Bad meaning for Sean because he has now adopted the sentencing guidelines that probation said he should, which you said 70, 87 months.

00:05:22.200 What that also tells you when he says, I'm also going to consider the acquitted conduct for people who don't understand.

00:05:30.260 And it seems counterintuitive, but in federal court, you can be acquitted.

00:05:35.000 You can be found not guilty on something.

00:05:37.360 I can't tell you the number of times I've had that with clients and then have to sit and explain to the client, sorry, we won that.

00:05:44.800 But you got nicked on one count and they're still coming after you for the stuff that the jury said you didn't do.

00:05:50.480 And that's, he's going to get, my prediction yesterday on MK true crime of an over under of 39 months and taking the under, I think I've lost my bet already.

00:06:02.120 Now you go for the over.

00:06:03.720 What do you think, Matt, of what's happening in that courtroom this morning?

00:06:07.180 Well, I was a little surprised, Megan, actually, when the judge came in, because that acquitted conduct thing was kind of a big deal in federal sentencing circles.

00:06:15.920 If you practice law in federal court, that was that was something that pretty much every lawyer who practices criminal law in that arena was talking about.

00:06:27.740 And the judge had no problem today coming in and saying, yeah, I'm going to consider this conduct.

00:06:33.140 Now, he didn't he didn't come out and say that that it was acquitted conduct per se.

00:06:38.100 I don't think, Mark, it was I'm going to consider these others acts of violence that were related to these things.

00:06:43.560 Right. But it I know Mark thought the same thing I did, that that is that's going to be fodder for appeal for sure.

00:06:52.180 Yeah. For anybody who's in the weeds.

00:06:53.440 Did the judge make this point when they were pushing for no bail, when when Diddy's lawyers wanted no bail, sorry, wanted bail for him?

00:07:00.480 The judge said to them, you argued in your closing that he committed abuse of these women and he used that against them to say, I'm not bailing this guy out like he's going to have to sit there.

00:07:11.500 So the so-called acquitted conduct, I mean, he was acquitted on legal charges, but he wasn't the jury didn't say he didn't abuse these women.

00:07:20.060 Even the defense admitted he abused the women.

00:07:22.900 So is the judge on solid ground saying, yeah, so I am going to consider that.

00:07:27.640 What do you think, Mark?

00:07:28.320 Well, what he did in the bail hearing that was sitting in there when he did it, the government made a very clever point.

00:07:35.160 They said that the Mann Act, even though there were no allegations necessarily of violence to transport these male escorts across state lines, it's grouped in the code under a section that is violence.

00:07:49.780 So anything that is in that section of the guidelines is violence.

00:07:55.300 And therefore, he said, I'm not going to release him on bail.

00:07:58.600 He made the point at that time, and I remember hearing it and saying, well, there's a lifeline, so to speak.

00:08:05.040 He said, this doesn't mean I'm going to – he didn't say hammer him at sentencing, but this is with no prejudice, basically, to sentencing.

00:08:13.320 What he did today, though, Matt was spot on.

00:08:16.080 He says, I'm not going to – and it's a fine distinction. 1.00

00:08:20.580 I'm not going to say that I'm going to consider it for the factors, but I am going to consider it for the 3553 factors.

00:08:30.920 It's going to inform my decision.

00:08:33.620 It's going to make me not – the way I read it, it's going to make me not go down, and I'm certainly not going to cut you a break is the bottom line.

00:08:44.000 Go ahead, Matt.

00:08:44.460 What do you think?

00:08:46.080 Yeah, it's hard to draw the line, Megan, on a case like this because we all saw that tape, right, and Cassie Ventura was involved in the Mann Act.

00:08:58.180 She was one of the people that was participating in the acts of prostitution, and we've seen this violence that – I mean, we've all watched the video, and it's horrific.

00:09:06.620 So where is the court obligated to draw that line?

00:09:09.940 He was acquitted of the RICO.

00:09:11.680 He was acquitted of the sex trafficking, but he sure wailed on her.

00:09:16.080 And look, Diddy – I know Mark has –

00:09:18.460 And didn't try to deny it.

00:09:19.760 Like totally admitted that this was him assaulting Cassie in the video we're watching right now.

00:09:24.840 Right, and look, he has – I read his letter to the court, and he's – Mark could have written that letter himself.

00:09:35.200 In fact, his daughter probably did.

00:09:37.000 But it's predictable given all the sentencing factors that go into that.

00:09:41.320 And I know Mark's got a relationship with Diddy, and I totally respect that.

00:09:45.560 Mark's not on him for a long time.

00:09:46.780 I've never met him.

00:09:48.120 Objectively, I think at the end of all this, Diddy is a horrible human being, or at least he comes off that way.

00:09:54.120 And this is – there's an old adage, Megan, you probably remember from law school.

00:09:58.220 It's – there's – the only thing more powerful than a federal judge on the planet Earth is God himself, right, or herself, I guess, in the modern era.

00:10:06.720 So this judge came out and said some very affirmative things, like Mark just said, regarding the sentencing of what he's going to consider.

00:10:16.160 And, Mark, I watched this segment on MK True Crime yesterday.

00:10:19.320 I would have taken the over on your 39 months, but I thought that was in the ballpark yesterday, and now that is out the window.

00:10:27.040 Yeah, I agree.

00:10:28.160 It looks like 70-month minimum here.

00:10:30.020 Do you know what the government said?

00:10:32.440 And I haven't been complimentary of the government in this prosecution at all.

00:10:36.040 But she got up today, Slavik got up today, and she said, Your Honor, you want to talk about the height of hubris?

00:10:43.480 He booked speaking engagements for Miami next week.

00:10:47.460 If that is true, and I have not talked to anybody on the defense to ask about that, or whoever did that should be – I'm walking a line as to what I would do,

00:11:01.000 but I – that would be – you wouldn't just be fired if you were in my office and you allowed that to happen.

00:11:07.720 I'd take a baseball bat to you, speaking of violence. 0.59

00:11:11.440 How do you even know that? 0.96

00:11:11.760 I mean, can you believe that?

00:11:13.660 I don't – because – I don't even want to go there.

00:11:17.260 I'm so conflicted about this.

00:11:18.300 They monitor the jailhouse calls, right?

00:11:20.280 Is that – like, everything you say in the jail is recorded, so if he'd booked that while in jail, they'd know.

00:11:26.520 That's exactly right, Megan.

00:11:29.560 I mean, you're so smart, Jesus.

00:11:31.380 And then if you knew how many times that things were said on those jailhouse calls that you just want to take somebody and get violent yourself.

00:11:40.160 I mean, it's just –

00:11:40.660 Right.

00:11:40.920 It's unbelievable.

00:11:41.960 It's unbelievable.

00:11:42.080 There's giant signs.

00:11:43.860 There are giant signs in the jail.

00:11:46.980 I mean, it's not like you know – I mean, the signs say, you are being recorded.

00:11:51.840 I mean, it's unbelievable to me.

00:11:54.720 To me, it's the same thing as, like, those huge signs on the beaches that say, shark attacks here on this beach, that people still go in.

00:12:02.180 And it's like, well, they get attacked by a shark.

00:12:04.080 You know, you can't say you weren't warned.

00:12:06.980 So that's bad.

00:12:08.160 The judge will probably consider that, Matt.

00:12:10.480 The other thing is, this is a relatively young judge in terms of his experience on the bench.

00:12:16.200 So for him to come in first thing and say, I am going to consider this stuff, to me, telegraphs, he's been consulting with the other judges on exactly what he can and cannot do.

00:12:25.260 I don't think he'd be such a, like, gunslinger if he hadn't checked it out and felt very confident that he'll be upheld on appeal for, you know, when it gets challenged.

00:12:35.480 No doubt.

00:12:36.200 Well, and going back to the phone call thing, Megan, this is something that we've talked about before that nobody is really addressing.

00:12:43.020 That is, remember, when he was in jail, the reason why he's felt so confident, or at least in the past, on some of these jailhouse conversations is he was using other inmates' calling codes.

00:12:53.940 And he was calling witnesses.

00:12:55.140 And Mark and I have both gone through this before.

00:12:58.800 When you have a client or somebody that is misbehaving in that way, that's a personal affront to a judge a lot of times.

00:13:07.340 And that is, when he got busted for that, that was right at the very beginning, right, as one of the reasons why the court kept denying the repeated bail motions was, this guy can't even follow the rules in jail.

00:13:20.060 Well, that's the type of thing that will stick with judges a lot of times.

00:13:24.940 And you're right.

00:13:26.440 I mean, this judge, I guarantee he was very, very careful in researching the parameters because no judge wants to get reversed on a high-profile case.

00:13:34.100 And he worded it exactly right, I think, so that he would limit the amount of appellate challenge or scrutiny that that call regarding the sentencing guidelines and consideration of acts of violence is going to impact the sentencing.

00:13:49.220 Because you know it's going to go up.

00:13:50.700 They're going to spend the resources to do that.

00:13:52.920 And I guarantee he had a lot of conversations with more experienced sentencing judges in federal court.

00:13:57.360 So if we're looking at that 70 months to 84 months, whatever we just said, that's around seven years, six and change to seven and change.

00:14:07.100 What happens with that, Mark?

00:14:08.540 If he gets that, how much of that does he serve in a federal sentence?

00:14:13.420 You know, somebody that I just had a sentencing last week in Matt's backyard and down in the Santa Ana courthouse.

00:14:22.840 And the client got 24 months.

00:14:25.040 Somebody, when I came back to the office and I was complaining about the 24 months, said, forget about it, they'll be out in five months.

00:14:33.220 24 months is the new year and a day.

00:14:35.900 That's the, you know, it used to be a year and a day was the way you get out.

00:14:39.420 There are programs now, the RDAP, First Step, things of that nature, that greatly reduce your time.

00:14:46.960 But it is not so that people understand in the federal system, it's starting to get more like the state, but it's not like the state where you get set good time, work time.

00:14:57.820 On a five-year sentence, if you're halftime, you'll be out in halftime.

00:15:02.020 Federal doesn't work that way.

00:15:03.320 If he gets 60 or 70 months, he's going to do real time.

00:15:09.040 And he's going to do, and because of the pending, one of the other things you have to keep in mind is where does he get designated?

00:15:17.020 What kinds of findings does the judge make?

00:15:19.500 He can, you know, the difference between a satellite camp in Lompoc and someplace that is a level or two levels above is a monumental difference.

00:15:32.220 It's the difference between going to summer camp and then having to watch yourself at all times.

00:15:38.620 And so those are real big determinations, depending on the amount of time and depending on what this judge says when he sentences him.

00:15:48.960 That's what I'm going to be looking for.

00:15:50.620 What is he going to say?

00:15:51.720 How much is he going to invoke violence and things of that nature?

00:15:55.420 Okay, so I may have sort of an answer to that question that just came in.

00:15:59.220 Sort of.

00:15:59.540 Inner City Press is reporting on this case, as they have been from the beginning.

00:16:04.000 Very good Twitter account to follow.

00:16:06.280 And some of this is X-rated, so bear with me.

00:16:10.500 Combs' attorney, Driscoll, argues in John's cases, where you're talking about like the guy who paid for the prostitution,

00:16:17.520 the average sentence is 6.7 months.

00:16:21.120 In this other case they were discussing, the defendant texted the victim, 0.99

00:16:26.440 I meant what I said about making a mold of your, you know what, the rest of you ain't worth shit. 0.99

00:16:31.880 So he's trying to distinguish a case that had a hefty sentence by saying that guy was a complete douchebag and that should be considered an apposite. 0.98

00:16:40.780 And the judge responded, but there was no threat of violence in that case.

00:16:45.300 This is, again, bad.

00:16:47.640 This is not what you want to be hearing on team defense.

00:16:49.880 The judge saying he's going to consider the violence and then arguing with you on how this should be treated like the John cases,

00:16:57.080 because, I don't know why, but because he's, they're arguing that these women did consent to being there.

00:17:03.440 And the judge is saying, okay, but I'm not considering those because there was no threat of violence.

00:17:08.060 And there is a ton of testimony about how, well, sometimes the women wanted to participate, Matt, you know, his girlfriends,

00:17:14.920 there were definitely times when they didn't.

00:17:17.160 And you had even the prostitutes, the male prostitutes testifying that he heard Diddy beating the hell out of them behind closed doors,

00:17:25.660 and then they'd come out upset and hurt, and he couldn't perform. 0.94

00:17:29.680 Like, the one guy testified, he wasn't able to, like, go forward sexually because it was so jarring having heard Diddy just beat the hell out of this woman.

00:17:37.840 The judge has not forgotten that.

00:17:40.700 No, the Punisher was his name, I think.

00:17:43.760 And I saw an interview with Ashley Panfield and that guy.

00:17:47.180 Right, the Punisher.

00:17:48.280 Well, and he said it was from a basketball nickname, and I seriously doubt that that's how he got that name.

00:17:53.480 But that's what we used to actually call.

00:17:56.060 We used to call Murphy that when he was in the DA's office, but for other reasons.

00:17:59.980 That fits.

00:18:00.660 He was the Punisher, yes.

00:18:02.380 Yeah, very different source.

00:18:04.360 Yes.

00:18:05.480 Look, strangely about that, I saw an interview with that guy.

00:18:09.180 He was one of the only people that I thought personally was all that sympathetic here.

00:18:14.100 I mean, that's another interesting aspect of this case is there's so many orbiters around Sean Combs that were trying to advance their own career or have now filed civil suits against him.

00:18:24.480 And there was this, I don't know, this kind of almost parasitic element surrounding him on a near constant basis that the Punisher was one of the most sympathetic witnesses, I think, in the entire trial.

00:18:37.620 And he talked about that, though.

00:18:39.740 He talked about he was – I think he was inherently credible, and he – I think he undid their entire sex trafficking case because he said this wasn't coerced in any way because, of course, that would have made him a rapist too.

00:18:51.980 And I just – I don't know.

00:18:55.580 I was a little surprised at the tenor this morning.

00:19:00.300 I really was.

00:19:00.980 But going back to the sentencing, that RDAP program that Mark's talking about, I think that stands for residential drug treatment, essentially.

00:19:10.640 And that can shave up to 12 months off, but it's – Mark's right.

00:19:14.480 It's not like state court.

00:19:16.040 So you're still going to take a substantial federal hit.

00:19:19.020 So if he got 70 months – I was trying to do some of the math on that after I saw the judge say that.

00:19:24.200 Mark's right.

00:19:24.880 He's looking at two, three, potentially even four actual years, and depending on placement.

00:19:33.780 And that is – he could go someplace super heavy, or he could go to summer camp.

00:19:40.500 And that, I think, is the next step in this.

00:19:41.420 Is that up to this judge?

00:19:42.620 You know, it works with – yeah, it's federal probation decides the classification, right, Mark?

00:19:50.100 Yeah.

00:19:50.360 That's essentially the way that works.

00:19:51.440 It's an interesting – I hate to get so nuanced on you, but I will.

00:19:56.220 It's up to the judge in the sense of – the judges know how many months get you to where, to meaning what you're eligible for, what you're not eligible for.

00:20:07.960 The judges also know if they make certain findings, that's going to inform the Bureau of Prisons as well.

00:20:14.860 So there's a dance that is being done right now, and you're – you know, if you're Sean Combs, somebody's going to have to explain to you at the end of this day today that you're either going one place or you're going another, and you're going to be designated in the next probably three weeks.

00:20:33.680 Well, Mark, how do you get to what's called club fed, you know, like the Martha Stewart prison, where it seemed like more – closer to summer camp that you can't leave than it did to, like, a supermax prison?

00:20:46.840 Well, you saw recently with Jolene Maxwell that she got switched from one of those more – what I would consider a harder facility to a kind of a camp-like facility.

00:21:01.680 And there are camp-like facilities on both coasts, but that would require a sentence under a certain number of months, and it would require the judge making certain findings, and the judge can make – and he'll be asked, I'm sure, today – to designate or recommend a designation.

00:21:22.420 But it's Bureau of Prisons and Probation who is going to inform that and also going to inform how he's designated.

00:21:30.140 Now, let me stick with you on this one, Mark, since you're the celebrity defense attorney.

00:21:34.980 Do they consider that he really is very famous and, you know, in his defense, would be more the center of attention in any prison than your average prisoner?

00:21:45.720 Yeah, absolutely.

00:21:46.740 They don't – the last thing they want is for something untoward to happen to him while in custody.

00:21:52.440 I know that that seems counterintuitive because you're punishing somebody by putting him in custody, but no, they're very attuned to that.

00:22:01.160 They take great steps to try to protect people because the last thing they want is to have to deal with the attendant publicity if something were to happen.

00:22:11.120 I mean, you have right now, Matt, him complaining about the conditions where he's at the Metropolitan Detention Center, which is rather infamous in its unpleasant conditions.

00:22:22.780 He's claiming through his lawyers that he only has showers that are extremely cold or extremely hot.

00:22:30.140 He has to use a toilet that's two feet away from other inmates and with no doors.

00:22:37.620 He is claiming that he has to eat meals that may or may not have maggots on them, which is pretty extreme.

00:22:43.840 I don't know whether it's true, but that's what he's alleging.

00:22:46.780 And I don't know.

00:22:48.580 He's saying those – the lawyers are arguing those 13 months should count for more than your average 13 given where he has spent them.

00:22:57.400 Yeah, good luck with that argument.

00:22:59.680 You know, that's going nowhere.

00:23:01.800 Do you remember, Megan, he had a reality show?

00:23:05.700 Diddy had a reality show that went on for a while.

00:23:08.800 He had a reality show way back in the day.

00:23:11.880 And I watched an episode of an old girlfriend that was really into it.

00:23:14.940 And he came into the group, and it was like – it was almost like an apprentice type thing where people would come in, and they'd work for him for a little while.

00:23:20.960 And, you know, he was eccentric and all that.

00:23:23.040 But there was an episode where he came in. 0.98

00:23:24.660 Somebody was complaining about something, and he said, there is no bitch-assness at Bad Boy Records. 1.00

00:23:31.020 No bitch-assness. 1.00

00:23:32.220 So he invented a word. 0.98

00:23:33.900 And when I saw that letter complaining about the conditions, that's exactly what I thought. 0.99

00:23:37.800 It was like, dude, you're expressing bitch-assness. 1.00

00:23:42.220 And he is – that's going to fall on deaf ears with the court because essentially that sounds like a celebrity complaining about uncomfortable conditions that everybody else in that jail also has to endure. 0.98

00:23:53.020 And plus, I'd be very surprised.

00:23:55.800 Jails are terrible, and you're right.

00:23:57.780 This is a notorious one.

00:23:59.320 But maggots and the food, I don't buy it, actually.

00:24:03.740 And I know it's not great.

00:24:04.880 I don't buy it either.

00:24:05.100 But I don't buy it, yeah.

00:24:07.300 The press reached out to MDC for a comment on that, and they didn't get back to them.

00:24:11.480 But, I mean, I don't buy it either.

00:24:12.640 If you had maggots on the food out there, like you'd never – this would be a big story.

00:24:17.200 And you'd have tons of lawyers in there, the ACLU among them, filing claims that this is a violation of civil rights.

00:24:22.960 Go ahead, Mark.

00:24:23.380 Well, the interesting thing and one of the reasons that they put this in the sentencing document, in the Southern District, in several reported cases, judges have imposed either a lesser sentence or given kind of bonus points, so to speak, for being housed in the MDC.

00:24:44.000 I've been to that MDC countless times to see Sean and otherwise, and the people who work it are extraordinarily helpful.

00:24:53.060 But the facility itself is really a challenge, and I'm not eating there other than to buy him stuff out of the vending machine.

00:25:02.920 But the – and what I usually tell clients when they complain about the food is, you know, well, it's a forced diet.

00:25:13.040 I mean, rarely does somebody go in there very skinny so you can come out in better shape.

00:25:18.040 But it is – and there is a precedent, so to speak, for judges to give you some kind of credit for it being housed there.

00:25:28.460 He was talking about how he wasn't being given his pre-diabetic meals, Matt, and how he's not getting therapy for his knee and his shoulder, which he says he needs.

00:25:40.020 I mean, that's just prison, right?

00:25:42.600 Like, do you get – if you were somebody who was getting physical therapy on the outside, does the prison provide that to you?

00:25:48.080 Do you have to have pre-diabetic meals?

00:25:50.940 Like, what – how much of this gets entertained by any prison?

00:25:55.900 Well, a lot, believe it or not.

00:25:58.900 Really?

00:25:59.120 Yeah, going back to what Mark said, they don't want – you know, they don't want anybody famous to get seriously assaulted or killed.

00:26:09.980 They really do have to take steps.

00:26:11.840 And like you pointed out, the ACLU sues everybody all the time.

00:26:15.140 They sue prisons all the time.

00:26:16.720 So they do have to provide some of that.

00:26:18.940 But one of the interesting things, and this was in the letter too, and I know this caught Mark's attention, he keeps talking about prison.

00:26:25.620 This is not prison.

00:26:27.260 This is jail.

00:26:28.520 This is – prison is the next step.

00:26:30.500 Prison is where he's going after sentencing.

00:26:32.440 And prison can be a lot more hardcore, believe it or not, than this place depending on where he is ultimately classified and sent to.

00:26:40.900 So jail and prison are two totally different things.

00:26:44.580 We interchange those two terms.

00:26:46.780 But this is a holding facility.

00:26:48.480 I know some federal prisoners do their time in local facilities like this.

00:26:53.580 It's no picnic.

00:26:54.820 But there's a lot worse places than where he is right now.

00:26:58.360 I mean, I think they try to make it a deterrent, right?

00:27:00.980 My guess is they don't want it to feel like the Ritz-Carlton.

00:27:05.760 Yeah, but Matt makes a really good point.

00:27:08.760 It's supposed to, ideally, pre-conviction, if you're being held in a facility, pre-conviction has a constitutional different standard than post-conviction.

00:27:23.020 And that's the difference between, at least theoretically and constitutionally, between a jail and a prison.

00:27:29.820 And that's why Matt's point is so brilliant and why you have to think about it.

00:27:33.540 Where he goes, what the judge says once he sentences him, is everything.

00:27:38.860 I mean, you, it really, this, if the judge wants to, they know how, federal judges, to Matt's point, and it made me think of an old joke that I will not repeat here.

00:27:49.760 But federal judges next to this, sit on the right hand of God, and they know what they are doing, and they can punish you like nobody's business.

00:27:58.420 Hmm, that's the thing he's got going against him, Matt, is that that judge sat through that entire trial, same as we did, and heard all of the terrible evidence against Diddy as a human.

00:28:09.880 You know, even though he wasn't found guilty on Rico, he heard about how he bribed the security clerks at the Intercontinental to hide that tape so he couldn't be caught.

00:28:19.280 He heard about him with the girls, his lover, his girlfriend, throwing up because she couldn't keep going with the freak off, saying, oh, good, now that you've thrown up, you can get back out there and finish up strong, like treating her like a racehorse.

00:28:33.900 I mean, the inhumanity with which he behaved toward these women is seared, and I'm sitting here at a desk.

00:28:40.740 I wasn't the judge in the courtroom looking at the women telling these stories.

00:28:45.400 Well, and let's not forget about the arson as well of Kid Cudi, right, Megan?

00:28:51.140 And I'll tell you another thing that's in the back of this judge's mind, and I'd be interested in Mark's thoughts on this.

00:28:56.560 But, look, the L.A. County criminal system is almost, under George Gascon, it really was, almost like a failed state.

00:29:07.100 And you look at some of these crimes of violence that he heard, like the Cassie Ventura video that we all saw, like the arson of Kid Cudi, all of that happened in Los Angeles.

00:29:16.180 And you're talking about, you know, this is the L.A. City Council bought hook, line, and sinker into the defund the police stuff.

00:29:25.960 Right now there's 8,600 sworn officers at LAPD.

00:29:28.680 It's the lowest it's been since 1995, and a lot of cases like this go uninvestigated, unsolved, unpursued in L.A. County.

00:29:38.600 All of these other crimes, these were state cases, and he wasn't convicted of any of those because there was no federal equivalent.

00:29:46.360 They wrapped him in on the RICO stuff.

00:29:47.880 But in that judge's mind, he's got to know that L.A. is a mess.

00:29:52.280 Under George Gascon, who was recently voted out, and I think Gascon was one of the worst things that ever happened to public safety in Mark and I's town of Los Angeles ever.

00:30:03.380 But that's also, I think, going to factor in all of these crimes that were not properly investigated, that were not properly pursued, that the judge heard all about.

00:30:12.580 You know, that's what was so interesting about his statement today.

00:30:15.640 I'm going to consider these other crimes of violence, and it's almost like, you know, there's an element there that the reason why we're seeing so many federal prosecutions out of L.A. crimes, and we've seen a bunch of them.

00:30:27.580 Matthew Perry is another example of that.

00:30:29.780 There were state charges all over that case.

00:30:32.420 The feds took it up because Gascon and the former stark charge, I should say, because we've got a new guy now, Nathan Hockman, who's 1,000 times better.

00:30:40.900 I think Mark will disagree on recent experience.

00:30:44.500 Now you're really throwing doubt on me out there.

00:30:47.600 Nathan Hockman, you want to talk about a failed DA's office, Jesus.

00:30:51.640 Uh-oh, don't be careful.

00:30:52.720 You've got to go in front of these people and deal with them still, Mark.

00:30:55.140 I know, I know.

00:30:56.740 But, you know, Matt and I will agree to disagree here.

00:31:00.520 I've got a, you know, by the way, the intercontinental incident itself, so people understand, took place well before George Gascon was ever voted in.

00:31:11.260 I mean, talk about something that was nine years ago.

00:31:14.860 Well, and it was buried.

00:31:15.980 Interesting.

00:31:16.840 Yeah.

00:31:17.180 And, well, it was buried for a lot of reasons.

00:31:19.720 I mean, not the least of which, Cassie, you know, the problem with this case is everybody went first to a civil lawyer.

00:31:27.600 Nobody was reporting anything to the police.

00:31:29.920 Everybody wanted a paycheck.

00:31:31.160 I mean, to the point where there was even one of the guys who testified at the trial and said, no, I'm not going to sue.

00:31:38.740 What does he do?

00:31:39.800 Two weeks ago, he sues.

00:31:41.380 So, I mean, I'm, in full disclosure, my office has defended a number of these things. 0.96

00:31:47.440 And each one is, frankly, more ridiculous than the other. 0.56

00:31:51.660 That's, having been said, I think Matt is spot on when he says the judge sat through this. 0.95

00:31:59.120 This judge is young and new to the bench.

00:32:03.360 However, he does meet one of the criteria that I like of judges.

00:32:07.820 I like judges who took a pay cut to get onto the bench as opposed to it's the best job they ever had.

00:32:14.040 And this guy took a massive pay cut to be on the bench.

00:32:17.100 That gives, to me, that gives them street cred in the sense that they're there because they want to do what's right.

00:32:24.460 And so, I say that even though I think this is not going to end well today as we're taping this.

00:32:30.620 But he's a very thoughtful, incredibly bright former Supreme Court clerk and was at the top of his game when he was in private practice.

00:32:41.300 Well, I know you're talking about L.A. and practice there.

00:32:43.680 This case, of course, is in federal court in New York, but we've had similar problems in New York.

00:32:48.900 I mean, everybody knows the problems.

00:32:50.600 The George Soros back DA here, revolving door of criminals.

00:32:55.080 They don't hold them to account.

00:32:56.440 I mean, it is kind of a miracle that this happened, though it was federal court and it was a notorious defendant.

00:33:01.080 Listen to this, Matt.

00:33:02.500 Inner City Press reporting.

00:33:04.520 Oh, no, sorry.

00:33:04.920 This is CNN.

00:33:06.320 That the defense appears to be playing the race card.

00:33:08.860 That's our interpretation.

00:33:10.300 Quote, Mr. Combs.

00:33:11.300 This is the defense.

00:33:12.080 That's his attorney, Nicole Westmoreland.

00:33:15.460 Mr. Combs starting his own record label as a black young male back then was almost kind of jokable, but he had the audacity to do it anyway. 0.97

00:33:25.120 This changed the industry and it changed the culture.

00:33:27.760 But more importantly, it changed countless individuals' lives.

00:33:30.940 Because what people recognize is that if Mr. Combs could do it, then they could do it, too.

00:33:36.400 Stand by. 0.96

00:33:37.540 By the way, this attorney herself is black. 0.98

00:33:39.860 She goes on. 0.86

00:33:40.660 This is per the New York Times.

00:33:42.700 And started crying.

00:33:44.460 There's Matt.

00:33:45.340 We've been over this.

00:33:46.380 There's no crying in criminal defense practice.

00:33:49.160 She goes on to say.

00:33:50.040 There's no crying in baseball.

00:33:50.920 Yeah.

00:33:51.200 No, none.

00:33:52.020 No.

00:33:52.240 She breaks down in tears while discussing the moguls' importance in their community via his entrepreneurial work in television, fashion, liquor, and music as a writer, producer, artist, and label owner.

00:34:02.440 Quote, Mr. Combs wearing all of those hats, she said in tears, sent a message that you can do it.

00:34:10.260 You don't just have to be signed to a label.

00:34:12.980 You can be the label.

00:34:14.860 Oh, okay.

00:34:16.820 Okay, Megan.

00:34:17.500 Maybe that could work in front of a jury. 0.74

00:34:19.240 I'm going to guess Judge Subramanian's like, um, is it lunchtime yet?

00:34:25.080 He came out today, Judge Subramanian, and the first thing he said was the government complained that Mia, who was supposed to testify or give a five-minute impact statement, was not going to because of the letter by the defense.

00:34:39.240 The judge chastised the defense for the tone of the letter.

00:34:43.700 So, I'm going to take a page out of the Judge Subramanian book and say, when you were reading that, Megan, your tone seemed to imply something there.

00:34:54.000 It matched the words.

00:34:56.300 That's thanks to my acting in my Blonde Origin video, Mark, and in my Megan Markle spoofs.

00:35:01.920 I've honed my acting skills.

00:35:04.460 Your tone has to match the words.

00:35:06.880 You have raised the bar, Megan.

00:35:08.820 I'm almost, I sit here in awe of the tone that you can, that you can invoke.

00:35:14.900 Thank you, the Academy.

00:35:16.000 Oh, I might be getting an Emmy.

00:35:17.320 So, you know, you're right.

00:35:18.520 The show is among 200 others that might be getting an Emmy for best podcast.

00:35:23.240 200, 300.

00:35:24.080 I don't know.

00:35:24.560 They, they didn't, uh, they didn't nominate Megan Markle's confessions of a female founder.

00:35:29.200 So, I'm not going to go under protest that she was snubbed.

00:35:31.480 Go ahead, Matt, your thoughts on, um, playing the race card and on crying as defense counsel to the judge.

00:35:40.140 Look, it is a, it's such a trope at this point.

00:35:44.800 I think that's an eye roller for the judge.

00:35:46.420 I hate to say it, but also let's not forget the, the people that were most affected negatively by this were also, they were black. 0.65

00:35:53.340 Right.

00:35:53.780 Or most of them.

00:35:55.020 And I, it's number one, it's going to fall on deaf ears.

00:35:58.920 Number two, when you do a sentencing, um, it's, it's not far off in a way from journalism, Megan, in that it's your credibility is everything.

00:36:08.900 And when you go and you step up and you do these performative things, it's kind of like when Mark and I do bench trials in juvenile court, you know, as a prosecutor, as a defense lawyer, you really have to tone down the performative nonsense.

00:36:20.920 Because you're insulting the intelligence of the court when you do that and you hit the nail on the head in front of a jury that might just work with one or two of them.

00:36:29.200 But in front of a sentencing judge, when you do that, you're, you're running the risk of blowing your credibility.

00:36:35.900 And if you, if you do that sort of, you know, crying nonsense, if you really do have an important point, um, and you really do have something that court should consider, you're going to lose that by going all in on that dramatic BS.

00:36:49.200 BS. And that's, that's what, that makes me think of a, a mutual friend of ours who will remain nameless.

00:36:56.540 I was trying a case in federal court downtown and in, um, uh, uh, the old spring street building and my co-counsel got up and did something.

00:37:07.980 And the federal judge peered over the bench at him and said, mister, you've been in state court too long in front of the jury.

00:37:18.180 And that, you knew at that point, yes.

00:37:20.560 Oh, that's never good.

00:37:23.040 Well, I heard there was some drama over on MK true crime, Mark Garagos, that involved you.

00:37:28.540 I don't know if this involves crying or not, but I wanted to show it.

00:37:31.320 Let's see. Here's thought zero with Garagos and Mark Eiglarsh arguing over Diddy.

00:37:36.760 Looks like I'm playing devil's advocate.

00:37:38.180 Cause I got two people who, who clearly think that he should, uh, walk free with a hug and apology and reimbursement of legal fees.

00:37:45.080 Well, wait a second.

00:37:46.480 How do you get a hug? Apologies been in custody for over a year.

00:37:51.360 He hasn't seen his family.

00:37:52.320 You wouldn't turn it down, Garagos. 0.99

00:37:54.080 Come on.

00:37:54.600 Listen, listen to me for one second.

00:37:56.980 I'm going to give you, I'll let you play devil's advocate.

00:38:00.000 I'm going to.

00:38:00.500 I'll make it, I'll actually make it a little bit easier for you.

00:38:03.720 I think the over and under here, you know what an over and under is, Mark? 0.70

00:38:08.420 I know you don't have sex, but you, do you gamble? 0.98

00:38:12.420 So you go to Vegas, you don't have sex. 0.94

00:38:14.960 You gamble at least.

00:38:16.320 Two things.

00:38:17.080 Okay.

00:38:17.560 As I play devil's advocate. 0.89

00:38:18.780 Number one, I do have sex when I go to Vegas, but with my wife, that was the point I was making. 1.00

00:38:23.960 I can see a man. 0.93

00:38:25.240 Still TMI.

00:38:25.960 And more, I know.

00:38:28.460 This is why we love the MK True Crime Network.

00:38:33.260 That's today's episode.

00:38:34.480 People got to go download that and watch the full discussion.

00:38:38.300 Way to get his goat up there, Garagos. 1.00

00:38:40.660 Yes.

00:38:42.500 Is that the same shirt, Mark?

00:38:44.180 Yes, it is.

00:38:45.220 I wanted to make sure.

00:38:46.100 You didn't change.

00:38:46.580 Megan, they told me.

00:38:47.620 Come on.

00:38:47.940 They told me, wear the same stuff because you're going to be showing the sod.

00:38:51.440 So I had to go find it.

00:38:53.080 Well, it's nice.

00:38:53.800 It pops, that royal blue.

00:38:55.960 Guys, thank you both so much.

00:38:57.420 You can catch more of Garagos and Murphy on MK True Crime.

00:39:01.040 And speaking of Mark Eiglarsh, he's up next along with Arthur Idala, who is Ghislaine Maxwell's attorney.

00:39:08.000 Maybe he'll have thoughts on the prison he might go to.

00:39:09.820 If you are stressed about back taxes, maybe you missed that April deadline or your books are a mess, don't wait.

00:39:16.520 The IRS is cracking down.

00:39:18.360 Penalties add up fast.

00:39:19.860 5% per month, up to 25% just for not filing.

00:39:23.520 But there is help.

00:39:25.380 Tax Network USA can take the burden off your shoulders and stop the spiral before it gets worse.

00:39:30.400 They have helped thousands of Americans, whether you're an employee, a small business owner, or haven't filed in years.

00:39:36.960 Messy books?

00:39:37.740 It's not a problem.

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00:39:40.360 Tax Network USA has direct access to powerful IRS programs and expert negotiators on your side.

00:39:46.360 You'll get a free consultation, and if you qualify, they may even be able to reduce or eliminate what you owe.

00:39:53.060 More importantly, they will help protect you from wage garnishments or bank levies.

00:39:57.740 So don't wait for the next IRS letter.

00:39:59.900 Call 800-958-1000 or visit tnusa.com slash Megan to speak to a real expert at Tax Network USA.

00:40:08.580 Take the pressure off.

00:40:10.000 Let Tax Network USA handle your tax issues.

00:40:16.360 We absolutely have to keep talking.

00:40:20.000 It's more important now than ever.

00:40:21.980 To cower, to hide, to go silent is not the answer. 0.85

00:40:26.620 And all I can tell you is there is no fucking way I am canceling one stop on this tour. 0.72

00:40:34.880 Not one stop. 0.96

00:40:36.200 I'm going.

00:40:37.160 I'm going to stand on these stages, and I'm going to say all the things that we say all the time on this show.

00:40:43.020 We're going to make it safe for me.

00:40:43.840 We're going to make it safe for my team and my guests and you.

00:40:46.900 We're going coast to coast and do something really important, which is to say what's true and what's real, to honor him.

00:40:55.740 I really now more than ever would love to see you all face to face.

00:40:59.580 God, I would love to see you face to face.

00:41:02.600 I need to see you face to face.

00:41:05.380 I am doing this tour, and I would love for you to join me.

00:41:09.320 MeganKelley.com for the tickets.

00:41:10.660 With me now, Arthur Idala and Mark Eiglarsh, the other half of that fun exchange you just saw with Garagos.

00:41:21.420 They are both stars of MK True Crime as well.

00:41:24.240 Don't you want to download and subscribe MK True Crime?

00:41:26.760 I mean, these are stars.

00:41:28.240 Honestly, you will not find a collection of lawyers that is both super talented and great at communicating.

00:41:35.600 Right?

00:41:36.220 Like, they're entertaining.

00:41:37.660 They know how to get up and down on a story.

00:41:39.540 Those are very rare combinations in a lawyer, I have to tell you.

00:41:42.280 Helps if they're actual trial lawyers like all of our guys are.

00:41:44.860 Anyway, go to MKTrueCrime.com for all the links, podcast platforms, and YouTube.

00:41:49.720 You will love it.

00:41:50.560 It's on fire thanks to these two and the last two and the next two and others.

00:41:55.140 Guys, great to see you.

00:41:56.740 Same here.

00:41:57.360 Thanks, Megan.

00:41:58.160 Very kind of you.

00:41:58.840 That's the nicest thing that Megan has ever said about me and Mark.

00:42:02.500 It's usually they're too paid to the next.

00:42:04.160 They talk over each other.

00:42:05.480 They're like, la, la, la, la, la.

00:42:07.340 I mean, I got to really sell the channel.

00:42:09.480 We'll get back to reality.

00:42:10.200 No, no, it's true.

00:42:11.220 You know, I mean every word.

00:42:13.780 Okay, let's pick up where we left off with the others on Diddy.

00:42:16.880 There's a woman named Nicole Westmoreland who's a lawyer for Combs.

00:42:20.540 She happens to be black, which is relevant to what I'm going to tell you.

00:42:24.040 So she's standing up, like arguing for his life, basically trying to get the sentence to the bare minimum.

00:42:30.060 It continues her emotional appeal to the judge.

00:42:32.740 I think we're quoting here from CNN still or the New York Times through sniffles and tears by insisting that her client was indeed remorseful.

00:42:42.420 Quote, I will tell you that Mr. Combs has been sitting in a jail cell for 13 months.

00:42:47.780 She said he's clear headed.

00:42:49.740 He's drug free.

00:42:51.100 He's determined.

00:42:52.040 He's focused and he's remorseful.

00:42:54.800 I can look the court in the eye and tell you that he's remorseful because I spend almost every single day speaking to Mr. Combs.

00:43:03.480 Your honor, he gets it, simply put, said Miss Westmoreland.

00:43:09.180 So are you starting to feel a little wobbly on, you know, a harsh sentence for Diddy, Arthur?

00:43:16.960 Well, the one thing I can tell you is she probably did talk to him every day.

00:43:21.120 You know, Megan, in the very beginning of his arrest, his legal problems, I was asked if I wanted to go meet with him to be retained on the case.

00:43:30.680 And I was like, sure, why not?

00:43:31.960 They're like, well, we're just going to let you know one thing.

00:43:33.540 I was like, what?

00:43:34.040 They're like, one of his requirements is, and I don't remember who it was, I think he wanted me there four days a week in prison or five days a week in prison to visit him.

00:43:43.080 I said, look, I'm not in prison.

00:43:44.280 You know, he's in prison.

00:43:45.740 So I do know he gets a lot of attention from his lawyers in the MDC, which is just not a very fun place for a lawyer to be, except if you have singles on you, because then you get to go to the sandwich and potato chip machine and buy your client a sandwich and potato chips.

00:44:01.120 And they're very, very happy and grateful for that.

00:44:03.340 That's like the big deal when you go in.

00:44:05.140 What kind of sandwich can you get in there?

00:44:06.400 Not bad.

00:44:08.400 They actually, it's a refrigerated machine and they load it up and then even have a couple of kosher sandwiches for the orthodox clients.

00:44:16.200 What a low culinary bar, Arthur.

00:44:18.200 You can get some roast beef.

00:44:19.040 Those sandwiches are disgusting.

00:44:20.900 They're there for a rotating. 0.98

00:44:21.880 Especially for an Italian.

00:44:23.420 The Italian from Brooklyn.

00:44:24.720 He knows I eat.

00:44:25.060 Compared to the food, compared to the food that they're actually getting in the MDC, they're thrilled with those sandwiches.

00:44:30.720 They do shake us down for dollars.

00:44:32.200 I will tell you this, and between Mark and I, we've done dozens and dozens and dozens of these federal sentencings, because it's really what you do in federal court now a lot.

00:44:41.880 It's a lot of plea bargaining and then sentencing, and unlike state court where you can cut a deal with the prosecutor, in federal court, you can only cut a guideline range with the prosecutor, and then the judge decides the ultimate sentence.

00:44:54.800 And I don't know how I would feel about having four different lawyers speak to the judge on behalf of the client's behalf.

00:45:04.240 You know, I think, in my opinion, it's maybe two, if you split one up.

00:45:08.500 Like, I'll talk about who the individual is, and then my partner will talk about the actual crime or what they were convicted of or what they weren't convicted of.

00:45:17.120 I heard you say earlier there's no crying in the courtroom.

00:45:19.420 I mean, I have handled some very, very sad cases, and I've become very somber, but I've never shed a tear.

00:45:27.060 There's no crying.

00:45:28.340 It's a league of their own.

00:45:30.120 She's crying, sir.

00:45:31.600 She's crying.

00:45:32.440 One of the few times I, the only time I cried, and I waited until I got in the hallway, is when I represented someone who I knew was absolutely innocent.

00:45:41.080 Factually, factually innocent.

00:45:42.940 And when I got to hear not guilty 43 times, I did go in the hallway and cry.

00:45:46.880 I did the same.

00:45:47.740 Oh, that's nice, like tears of relief.

00:45:50.480 Well, of course.

00:45:52.000 I think this is manufactured.

00:45:53.580 I think this woman's playing, she thinks it's 2020 post-George Floyd, and that if she is a black woman, turns on the waterworks about how much Sean Combs has contributed to the world, and the thought of him going behind bars after being such an inspo, she's hoping to touch something in the judge's heart that I doubt is there. 0.55

00:46:08.760 Well, Megan, let me tell you, if you're scoffing is because you think that maybe he doesn't deserve those words and maybe it's manufactured, that's fair.

00:46:18.200 But what she's doing is ensuring due process, and that is, you know, she's got to do her job, and Arthur and I will do whatever it takes if we think it's going to help our client.

00:46:28.760 In this case, obviously, she is telling the judge, I promise you, I'm there every day, and he has changed.

00:46:36.220 Now, whether that's real or not, who knows?

00:46:38.540 Maybe she does believe it, but believability and accuracy are two different things.

00:46:42.760 Maybe that's what she's relaying to the judge that she's seeing in Diddy, and that Diddy's just turning it on.

00:46:47.920 Or maybe he did change.

00:46:49.360 The point is, that's her job.

00:46:51.620 Her job is to do whatever she can for the client.

00:46:54.100 I don't think it's going to matter one bit to this judge.

00:46:57.000 I think he's already got his mind made up.

00:46:59.020 I think that he's heard all of this before.

00:47:02.220 They're used to it.

00:47:03.440 They check the boxes.

00:47:04.600 In all these cases, we make sure our clients accept full responsibility and do all we can to show remorse.

00:47:10.620 Even personal accounts from the lawyers.

00:47:12.920 Check that box.

00:47:13.760 We all do it.

00:47:14.980 Ultimately, the judge sat through this trial.

00:47:17.220 He sees the conduct.

00:47:18.340 He'll include what he thinks is relevant and move that towards sentencing and give him what he thinks is appropriate.

00:47:25.880 And, you know, Megan, you can't minimize.

00:47:27.260 Wait, wait.

00:47:27.540 Let me just give you—let me give you a little bit more color, and then I'll give it to you. 0.73

00:47:30.700 CNN reporting that, again, Westmoreland is discussing charter school—

00:47:34.680 I'm sorry.

00:47:36.460 This is so obvious.

00:47:37.880 It's like this judge is—he didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

00:47:40.980 —discussing the charter schools that Sean Combs opened in impoverished communities where she says the public schools were inadequate.

00:47:49.060 Also, a vote-or-die campaign that Combs participated in, quote, changed the way voting campaigns happen to this day.

00:47:57.540 He basically is responsible for changing the way we vote.

00:48:00.960 Hold on.

00:48:01.820 Put aside Diddy.

00:48:03.380 I don't like Diddy at all.

00:48:04.660 I don't like what he's done.

00:48:05.780 All that stuff.

00:48:06.780 But she's doing her job.

00:48:08.400 If, God forbid, it was someone you love, that's fair.

00:48:11.700 That's fair.

00:48:12.200 All right.

00:48:12.440 So hold on, Mark.

00:48:14.080 Here's the thing.

00:48:14.660 First of all, I just have to say, because I'm looking at the shot, that verdict I cried on, that's the picture right over my shoulder right before the verdict was read.

00:48:22.220 The little small one with the orange background?

00:48:23.840 Yep.

00:48:24.400 That's me sitting there.

00:48:25.760 The client is cool as a cucumber.

00:48:27.200 I was a mess.

00:48:28.120 But anyway—

00:48:29.080 And here's mine, by the way.

00:48:31.220 This is actually me crying when Scott Peterson, not Garagos's Peterson, but the other one, the alleged coward of Broward, whatever, who's innocent.

00:48:41.360 And finally, you get that relief because the jurors, who took four days, should have taken four minutes, and you finally get the outcome.

00:48:48.080 The one from the Stoneman Douglas school shooting.

00:48:49.380 That was the bragging portion of the show from Arthur I. Dalla and Mark I. Glock.

00:48:52.960 I'm telling you what great lawyers we are.

00:48:54.760 But you know what?

00:48:55.180 It is further evidence.

00:48:55.960 You guys are the real deal.

00:48:56.820 You both were prosecutors, now defense attorneys.

00:48:58.480 You're in court all the time.

00:48:59.300 That's why you work so well on Kelly Scored and on MK True Crime, because you actually know what you're talking about, unlike half the legal eagles we see on TV, who never practiced law or who just went to law school for a couple of years.

00:49:10.040 Go ahead, Arthur.

00:49:10.620 Let me address what's going on with her bragging about P. Diddy's accomplishments in life.

00:49:19.380 If he was not a public figure, you would say, Your Honor, I know you've read our 40-page report and all the letters and all that.

00:49:27.860 I'm not here to gild the lily, and I know you understand all that.

00:49:31.340 And maybe you do like a little top three list.

00:49:34.060 But, you know, I think what really stands out is he started his own chapter of the Boy Scouts.

00:49:38.320 However, and Mark and I have both been in this position, when you represent a high-profile client and there's going to be media in there,

00:49:46.160 often the client says to you, Can you please say A, B, and C, and that I did this, and I helped cure cancer, and I did St. Jude's Children thing?

00:49:56.580 Because, you know, the Daily News and the Post, they're not going to read your 100-page submission, but they are going to be in the courtroom.

00:50:03.100 And please, for me and for the sake of my wife and my children, can you please make sure the media hears all the good things I did?

00:50:11.340 So he's basically like, gild away.

00:50:13.920 Here's the lily.

00:50:14.920 Oh, of course.

00:50:16.720 Hey, Arthur, can you mention to the judge that I said God bless you to someone who sneezed this morning?

00:50:22.240 Whatever it takes.

00:50:23.880 Right, you're talking about jail time, so I get that.

00:50:27.340 We mentioned this in the first segment, Mark, but what do you make of this?

00:50:31.060 Because the prosecutor, Christy Slavik, did get up there, and they're reporting that she earned some wide eyes and open mouths

00:50:37.960 when she told the judge Sean Combs has booked speaking engagements in Miami for next week,

00:50:44.280 seemingly under the expectation that he would be let off with a life sentence.

00:50:47.940 That is the height of hubris, she said to the court.

00:50:52.340 No.

00:50:52.860 That's not good.

00:50:54.120 No.

00:50:55.740 Listen, I would get up there and say, judge, that is totally.

00:50:58.500 Judge, it was Zoom appearances.

00:50:59.700 It was Zoom appearances, judge.

00:51:01.400 Zoom from prison, judge.

00:51:02.620 Zoom appearances.

00:51:03.620 God, no, you cannot let that happen.

00:51:06.700 You would have to say that is not accurate at all, period, judge, and just neutralize it.

00:51:11.800 But what did they have it on tape from his jailhouse call?

00:51:15.240 Oh, boy, that's bad. 1.00

00:51:17.340 You're screwed. 1.00

00:51:18.080 That is bad. 1.00

00:51:18.740 That is really bad.

00:51:21.780 I mean, it's really because all of that stuff that she's saying and that he wrote about remorse

00:51:26.780 and I'm back and I'm good and I'm prayerful and that just is like, yeah, and I'm going

00:51:31.040 to get out of here and I've already got a gig lined up and I'm going to put some money

00:51:33.920 in my pocket.

00:51:35.220 Yeah, that's-

00:51:35.920 But I give this judge more credibility.

00:51:37.660 I give him more credit than that.

00:51:39.080 That type of stuff is not what he's going to consider when it comes time to make this

00:51:44.780 sentence.

00:51:45.160 I think he sat through and saw a lot of abhorrent conduct, a lot that he was acquitted for.

00:51:50.100 But if he can ever bring any of that in and sprinkle it and label it relevant conduct

00:51:55.440 and get him up to the seven years or so that probation is recommending, I think that's where

00:52:01.220 he's going to land.

00:52:02.420 You just, it's better to have him possibly buying your remorseful line than thinking, 0.99

00:52:07.880 what a douchebag. 0.97

00:52:09.600 He actually is booking speaking engagements. 0.99

00:52:11.420 They all know that, Megan.

00:52:12.880 Megan, my mother watches this, Megan.

00:52:14.580 My mother watches this.

00:52:15.760 Sorry, mine too, mine too.

00:52:17.560 My mom always congratulates me.

00:52:19.440 Oh, you managed to make it through a show without the F-bomb.

00:52:21.840 All right, stand by.

00:52:22.680 There's always next hour.

00:52:24.020 We'll be right back.

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00:53:34.940 Arthur Adala and Mark Eichlars are back with me.

00:53:41.980 They are stars of MK True Crime.

00:53:44.260 Go subscribe now at mktruecrime.com on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts.

00:53:50.380 If you just type in MK True Crime, it will come up and you hit subscribe or follow, and

00:53:53.660 then you can watch them twice a week.

00:53:55.760 For now, it's a hit, so we're probably going to pick that up.

00:53:58.700 But they're joining me live on tour as well.

00:54:01.080 You can actually meet these gentlemen.

00:54:03.360 Go to megankelly.com to get your tickets for the Megyn Kelly live tour. 0.75

00:54:08.360 We are selling out in some venues, so please go today, megankelly.com.

00:54:12.240 All right, guys, here's the latest from inside the courtroom.

00:54:14.980 His kids are now testifying to the judge, emphasizing he is a changed man, says CNN.

00:54:21.420 Sean Diddy Combs' son, Quincy Brown, is now speaking on his behalf.

00:54:24.820 We're going to love him unconditionally through his struggles, but in front of you and in front

00:54:28.780 of us is a changed man.

00:54:30.660 Our father has learned a major lesson.

00:54:32.280 Week after week, we've seen him evolve, something we haven't seen in 15 years.

00:54:35.620 He's completely transformed.

00:54:37.800 Justin says he speaks to Diddy every day, several times a day.

00:54:41.460 He said his father is now drug-free and has refound his purpose.

00:54:44.980 I can truly, sincerely say he's changed for the better.

00:54:47.280 Your Honor, I believe my father still has so much more to give to the world and, more

00:54:50.620 importantly, so much more to give to his children.

00:54:52.840 Now they're emphasizing his lessons on how to treat women.

00:54:58.060 Inner City Press, Christian Combs, he told me to treat women like a queen, and I do. 0.89

00:55:04.920 Do as I do.

00:55:05.960 Do as I say, not as I do.

00:55:07.420 No, that was my editorializing.

00:55:09.540 I see in his eyes, as his twin, that he has changed.

00:55:15.440 Next up, Jesse Combs.

00:55:17.180 I'm 18, says Jesse.

00:55:18.760 Starts crying.

00:55:19.700 When my mother died, I was just a little girl.

00:55:21.620 I remember my dad sitting us down.

00:55:24.820 Jesse Combs.

00:55:25.520 It helped me survive when I just wanted my mom.

00:55:28.200 Then comes Chance Combs, his daughter.

00:55:30.080 He's changed.

00:55:30.880 Crying.

00:55:31.460 Sorry.

00:55:32.080 He speaks with a clear mind.

00:55:33.240 Then there's Delilah Combs. 0.86

00:55:34.820 We watch our two-year-old sister.

00:55:36.140 She cannot grow up fatherlessness.

00:55:37.500 Ah, this is all par for the course, except for the women part, Arthur. 1.00

00:55:41.960 No, but it is just, I want to emphasize what you just said.

00:55:45.300 It is par for the course.

00:55:46.680 Mark and I do this all the time.

00:55:48.100 Like, you go in and you talk about all the good things this person has done and who they've helped.

00:55:52.840 And, like, literally, I've had next-door neighbors say, look, when I had cancer treatments,

00:55:57.020 you know, he drove me to get the cancer treatments every day and he didn't have to.

00:56:01.060 And then, of course, the prosecutor's saying, yes, but Mr. Idal is leaving out.

00:56:04.160 He stole $100 million from American Express and his white-collar fraud thing.

00:56:08.440 So, you know, that's the prosecutor's side.

00:56:10.240 Really sweet in between the beatings.

00:56:12.680 Yeah, right.

00:56:13.740 So, Megan, let me tell you how I handle these things.

00:56:16.760 First of all, by the way, it would have been cute if the kid said, my dad has changed so much,

00:56:20.060 he only uses lube on Thursdays now.

00:56:23.500 So, okay, let me move forward.

00:56:25.480 That's Mark Eichlage, folks.

00:56:26.660 I'll take the hate mail.

00:56:27.520 They say, don't be funny.

00:56:28.560 All right, listen.

00:56:29.520 So, here's how I approach these things, right?

00:56:31.820 I pretend as if we got an outcome that we don't want.

00:56:36.540 And if somehow my higher power allows me to turn back the clock and do it all over again,

00:56:41.000 how would I do it?

00:56:42.240 I'd include every single kid that is willing to testify if I think that might hit the button

00:56:48.080 on the judge.

00:56:48.580 So, you don't know what buttons are going to work, if anything.

00:56:51.860 So, you hit every single thing.

00:56:53.440 I make sure the acceptance of responsibility is perfect, that there's nothing more my

00:56:57.740 client could say or do to show that he has changed.

00:57:00.700 You put the kids in there.

00:57:02.200 Every single act of community service is there.

00:57:04.980 Every letter that you can possibly get from anyone, it goes.

00:57:08.640 So, you press all the buttons, and then ultimately, you've done everything you could, whatever the

00:57:13.960 sentence is, you can live with professionally.

00:57:16.560 But the people-

00:57:46.540 Every game in prison, I don't just teach about my success, I also teach about my mistakes and

00:57:51.500 failures.

00:57:52.080 I mean, that could cut against letting him out earlier, if the judge thinks he could

00:57:55.180 help these guys in prison learn to, like, come out entrepreneurial.

00:57:59.580 He talks about his 84-year-old mother who needs him, his seven children who need him.

00:58:04.260 He should have thought about that before.

00:58:06.100 And then here, they're playing an 11-minute video in court, the defenses.

00:58:09.840 We've cut about a minute of it, trying to make him look like, you know, Ward Cleaver.

00:58:16.580 Here's a little bit of that.

00:58:17.520 I come from New York.

00:58:20.320 I grew up in Harlem.

00:58:22.460 I used to have to wear a uniform every day.

00:58:25.520 Had to get up early in the morning.

00:58:27.160 Had to travel to go to school.

00:58:30.100 I worked hard, just like you guys are working.

00:58:34.620 This country and this world we live in may have plans for y'all.

00:58:40.580 He's talking to kids.

00:58:41.340 I can't listen to that.

00:58:42.180 I don't want y'all to listen to it either.

00:58:46.120 Y'all are great.

00:58:48.000 Y'all are kings.

00:58:49.560 Y'all are queens.

00:58:51.100 Y'all are leaders.

00:58:52.460 How old are you?

00:58:53.340 Two.

00:58:54.020 How old are you?

00:58:54.860 Two.

00:58:55.860 Two.

00:58:56.260 Two.

00:58:56.380 You got a two.

00:58:57.140 That's two.

00:58:58.300 My name is Pookie the Bird.

00:59:00.260 Pookie.

00:59:04.700 Happy birthday.

00:59:11.340 That's good stuff, Megan.

00:59:14.760 Megan, that's good stuff.

00:59:16.300 It is.

00:59:16.600 I agree with you, Mark.

00:59:17.600 It does remind you.

00:59:19.740 You softening up, Megan?

00:59:21.160 No, not even a little bit.

00:59:22.700 But I recognize it as good lawyering.

00:59:24.780 Because he is, even though he's a criminal, he's an extraordinary person.

00:59:29.620 I mean, he's led an extraordinary life.

00:59:31.820 And his crimes are not the only thing he's done.

00:59:34.920 So that's a good video to show.

00:59:36.520 That's the argument.

00:59:37.200 To some kids, he is a role model, which makes it even sadder what he did.

00:59:41.340 Way to twist that.

00:59:43.480 To Mark's point about throwing everything in there.

00:59:46.240 And sometimes it could backfire.

00:59:48.720 And it backfired here, right?

00:59:50.020 Didn't the judge say, didn't he start off by saying the letters, the letter that the defense

00:59:55.420 attorneys wrote was bullying towards one of the witnesses who were going to testify?

00:59:59.880 So today, so there's like this balancing test of what Mark says.

01:00:05.940 You don't want to have any regrets.

01:00:07.540 You want to put your best foot forward.

01:00:09.280 But sometimes you never know what's going to tick off a judge.

01:00:12.440 Something that you think is benign or even good turns out to be not so good.

01:00:17.700 And I have to say, I know he's an extraordinary, he's done extraordinary things.

01:00:22.340 Look, the guy's a billionaire.

01:00:23.400 Nobody's going to minimize that.

01:00:25.440 But here's what judges say, because we represent people like this all the time who have done

01:00:29.980 great things and maybe not to that magnitude.

01:00:32.940 And then they screw up.

01:00:34.100 They quote unquote lose their way.

01:00:35.860 And here's what judges say at sentencing.

01:00:38.140 I agree that he's done great things.

01:00:39.960 I've agreed that he helped many people.

01:00:42.140 I agree that he formed a charter school and he's a great family man, et cetera, et cetera.

01:00:47.240 However, in this, and you want to call it aberrant behavior.

01:00:50.380 In other words, it's not the way he normally operates, which they can't say that with

01:00:53.660 huff daddy. 0.97

01:00:55.120 But then the judge says, however, two of the things I need to take into consideration

01:01:00.640 are specific deterrence to make sure this individual doesn't do this again.

01:01:06.300 And sometimes like the judge did in the Anthony Weiner case and a much tougher judge

01:01:11.220 that Subramanian is, she said, I don't think you'll ever do this again. 1.00

01:01:15.680 And she was right.

01:01:17.240 But there's general deterrence.

01:01:19.340 And basically the whole world is watching.

01:01:21.680 And I need to send a message to the whole world that despite the fact you were a city

01:01:26.780 councilman, you were a congressman, you passed all these bills, you filled all these potholes,

01:01:31.320 you helped all these people, but you did something, you committed a crime.

01:01:35.540 So I'm acknowledging your greatness in the past.

01:01:38.920 I'm acknowledging the fact that I don't think you're going to do this again.

01:01:42.560 However, by law, I have to address general deterrence.

01:01:47.500 And therefore, I have to give you an incarceratory sentence.

01:01:51.600 I will give you less than probation wants.

01:01:54.120 I will give you less.

01:01:55.280 That's what I would say.

01:01:56.560 Than the U.S.

01:01:57.280 attorneys.

01:01:57.600 But if I were the prosecutor, I'd get up there and I'd say, I would say all of those

01:02:03.100 kids you just saw are watching and waiting to see what you are going to do to find out

01:02:09.180 whether there are consequences to abusing women, to beating them, to forcing them into

01:02:15.760 sex acts they don't want to perform.

01:02:17.980 You hold that messaging in your hands right now to a generation of kids who know his name

01:02:23.400 and who were influenced by him.

01:02:25.300 That's what's at stake in these numbers.

01:02:27.040 That is very compelling.

01:02:29.300 The other thing this judge is doing is thinking, okay, like Aristotle said, justice is like cases

01:02:34.780 being treated alike. 0.91

01:02:35.820 So they strive to try to balance out sentences for somebody like this billionaire rat mogul 0.95

01:02:41.980 and some white guy in Wisconsin who may get charged with the same thing. 0.92

01:02:47.340 And so he's trying to balance it out.

01:02:48.660 And where do they start?

01:02:50.140 The federal sentencing guidelines.

01:02:52.260 That's why they were created.

01:02:53.940 They're no longer mandatory, but they're persuasive.

01:02:57.740 So the judge will start off, okay, where do we fall within the sentencing guidelines?

01:03:03.100 And probation, they don't have a, they're not advocating.

01:03:06.800 They're the ones who are, I mean, a lot of times that we think that they are, but they're

01:03:10.420 objective and they're saying, here's where he falls.

01:03:14.020 And when I heard that he, according to them, falls six, 7.3 years.

01:03:19.700 Six, seven.

01:03:20.100 I said, yeah, all of a sudden I see that's where the magic is happening.

01:03:25.120 And the judge can either go upward or go downward.

01:03:27.960 And I generally see judges sentencing people within the guidelines.

01:03:33.260 That's why I predicted six, seven years.

01:03:35.160 I'll go seven years.

01:03:36.640 Are you guys aware of this meme with the young people?

01:03:38.580 Not for me, Megan.

01:03:39.460 Do you have a 14 year old?

01:03:40.860 You can't do six, seven without doing this.

01:03:42.860 I don't know why, but you can't.

01:03:44.440 Go ahead, Arthur.

01:03:44.980 What were you saying?

01:03:46.060 That went right over my head.

01:03:47.060 I'm very lucky here in New York.

01:03:48.860 I've gotten, look, sentencing is such a huge part of the federal system nowadays, much

01:03:55.180 more so than when my dad practiced.

01:03:57.020 When my dad practiced, you actually went to trial.

01:03:59.480 Nowadays, everyone plea bargains out because I don't want to get too deep into the weeds,

01:04:05.440 but if you plea bargain and you don't make them go to trial, those guidelines automatically

01:04:10.160 go down significantly.

01:04:12.340 You do get a benefit by not making them, putting them to the test.

01:04:16.860 So, so now you get into the guidelines and you get a probation, you get a probation recommendation,

01:04:21.900 but then you got to go all out.

01:04:24.280 And I've been very fortunate to convince judges here in the Southern District of New York,

01:04:28.340 in this courthouse, um, to give them below guideline sentence, uh, it's on a plea, but

01:04:36.220 on a, on a plea, hold on.

01:04:37.540 Here's something we're not talking about.

01:04:38.720 Nobody's talking about the trial tax penalty.

01:04:42.420 Let's talk about, I call it a trial tax.

01:04:44.500 The judges will never say it, but here's the thing.

01:04:47.640 When you go to trial, you actually are going to be that one or 2% that dares to take up

01:04:52.800 that kind of time and challenge the system and not accept responsibility.

01:04:56.720 The hammer's coming down.

01:04:58.960 Now that's unfair.

01:05:00.000 You say you should get the same and it shouldn't matter.

01:05:03.060 All judges do it.

01:05:04.460 Why?

01:05:04.960 Because it sends a message to Arthur.

01:05:07.180 It sends a message to me that you better think very carefully. 0.99

01:05:10.500 You better win your damn case or take a plea because I'm telling you, if your client loses, 0.99

01:05:16.400 oh boy, we're going to go for it. 1.00

01:05:18.340 You're going to get a lot of time.

01:05:19.720 What Mark is saying, Megan, what Mark is saying is built in to the system.

01:05:24.440 If you do not accept responsibility prior to trial, you do not get what that's called that

01:05:29.040 three point reduction, which sometimes that's years in prison.

01:05:32.440 And one judge in the Southern District of New York says that is unconstitutional.

01:05:37.120 You are basically threatening people.

01:05:39.160 You're threatening people.

01:05:40.040 That's well, because that's why Mark's, as Mark says, they don't explicitly acknowledge

01:05:43.320 that's what they're doing to you.

01:05:44.240 All right, wait, I want to keep going because there's a couple of other cases I want to get

01:05:46.620 to with you guys.

01:05:47.580 Number one is Tyler Robinson, the accused shooter of our friend Charlie.

01:05:51.580 And he had a hearing on Monday.

01:05:54.500 First of all, he was appointed some very seriously experienced defense attorneys.

01:05:59.460 He's got some real lawyers representing him, including Michael Burt now of San Francisco,

01:06:04.640 Richard Novak of Pasadena.

01:06:06.660 Um, one of them, I think it was, is it, uh, Michael?

01:06:11.780 I think it's Michael Burt, uh, represented Lyle Menendez, uh, at his first trial in 1993.

01:06:17.660 Then the other guy had, uh, yeah, yeah, no, it's still Michael Burt has 47 years of trial

01:06:23.300 experience.

01:06:24.480 Novak's been practicing law since 1990 with a focus on criminal defense for the past 20 years.

01:06:29.040 He's worked on more than two dozen capital cases.

01:06:31.140 So these are real lawyers and what they, they're joining a woman who already represented him.

01:06:36.460 And what they said at this last hearing was, um, could we have some more time to review the

01:06:42.920 large amount of evidence in this case before deciding whether we want a preliminary hearing?

01:06:49.540 A preliminary hearing would determine if there is enough evidence to, um, to hold this case over

01:06:56.520 to trial.

01:06:57.360 I don't think there's any question, right?

01:06:59.760 Defendants can waive that if they want to, but it seems like one of the newly appointed lawyers,

01:07:04.420 her name is Catherine Nestor, said they did not intend.

01:07:07.820 They did not intend to waive it.

01:07:09.020 So what's, what's really happening here is they ask for a delay on this decision, Mark.

01:07:12.740 I'll tell you, well, first they want to get all of the evidence so that they can use that

01:07:18.040 to possibly cross-examine the witnesses, but it's just discovery.

01:07:22.520 It's trying to find out more for them.

01:07:25.180 Unless you add David Copperfield to the team, it's not going to change anything.

01:07:28.960 There's overwhelming evidence.

01:07:30.120 The only question is whether he's going to live or die.

01:07:32.220 Is he going to get life or is he going to get death?

01:07:34.200 And they're bringing in these folks to help increase the chances that he'll get life.

01:07:39.820 And I actually see that as a viable possibility.

01:07:43.680 And this is just a prediction.

01:07:46.380 You've got to get 12 people.

01:07:48.480 The jury has to be unanimous in Utah. 1.00

01:07:51.400 All must say he should die. 0.98

01:07:53.440 It only takes one person to say, well, you know what? 1.00

01:07:55.680 His life will be worse in prison.

01:07:57.200 I'm going to let him live.

01:07:58.200 Or, or, you know what?

01:07:58.920 He's got no priors.

01:07:59.940 And it wasn't especially heinous, intrusive and cruel in my mind.

01:08:03.640 So I'm going to let him live.

01:08:05.400 It takes one person.

01:08:06.360 And that means you go through all of this for not.

01:08:10.160 Also, you add to that, that a plea of guilty, which guarantees a waiver of appeal, puts this to bed.

01:08:18.040 He stays in prison for the rest of his life.

01:08:19.960 And then maybe they'll get him in prison.

01:08:21.780 The question is, will Charlie Kirk's widow be open-minded enough to go along with that?

01:08:27.400 Because that is very persuasive.

01:08:28.480 She's already said, I'm going to let the lawyers figure this out.

01:08:30.900 She's already said she just doesn't want this on her moral scorecard.

01:08:34.260 I know.

01:08:35.760 However, she actually has an elevated thought process in that she did forgive him publicly.

01:08:42.220 And I know that was more for her.

01:08:43.900 But when the prosecutors come over to her and say, listen, we're considering guaranteeing the life sentence.

01:08:49.660 And then there's no issues on appeal.

01:08:51.880 We don't ever have to come back here and do it again.

01:08:53.600 God forbid.

01:08:54.180 There are no issues.

01:08:55.140 Like, this is just like.

01:08:56.820 Technicalities, Megan.

01:08:57.700 Megan, they screw up in jury selection.

01:08:59.700 This is just like Kohlberger, Arthur.

01:09:00.680 They have got Tyler Robinson dead to rights.

01:09:05.000 They've got the text messages.

01:09:07.040 I mean, like, he's.

01:09:08.560 They've got the gun that was his grandfather's.

01:09:10.740 So the bullets match the bullet that was used on.

01:09:13.280 Arthur, explain how these cases come back on appeal all the time.

01:09:16.820 You got to redo it over.

01:09:18.080 So Mark, Mark is correct.

01:09:19.860 A lot of these cases do come back on appeal.

01:09:21.800 But Megan, that's why the judges assign lawyers like the ones assigned here who are known to be excellent lawyers.

01:09:30.420 My dad was one of those.

01:09:31.620 He was assigned by a federal judge.

01:09:33.480 I want you to try this horrible, horrible case because I don't want it coming back on appeal.

01:09:38.600 I know they got this guy dead to rights.

01:09:41.700 That's fine.

01:09:42.660 But if some lawyer who doesn't know what he's doing messes something up so badly that the guy's constitutional rights were just trampled on.

01:09:49.840 And a field court may be like, look, we know he's guilty, but you guys didn't find him guilty the right way.

01:09:54.700 So we have to do it over again.

01:09:56.620 So there's been no even whiff of violation of his rights.

01:10:00.940 Nothing, nothing so far.

01:10:02.560 And by the way, he confessed.

01:10:04.720 That's how we know it was him.

01:10:06.380 He went to his parents and said, it was me.

01:10:09.680 We have in writing to his trans furry lover.

01:10:13.020 It was me.

01:10:13.820 It was me.

01:10:14.820 It was me.

01:10:15.500 Megan, Megan, Megan, listen, listen, we don't.

01:10:17.500 Arthur, let me jump in here.

01:10:18.620 It's not the evidence.

01:10:19.300 Yeah, we're not.

01:10:19.900 It's the process.

01:10:20.820 It's exactly what Arthur just said.

01:10:22.500 We are both.

01:10:23.340 I'm not going to speak for Arthur.

01:10:24.240 I will say there is a mountain of evidence.

01:10:26.140 He admitted it.

01:10:26.780 I read the confession to his roommate lover.

01:10:29.640 I got it.

01:10:30.680 They can prove this case beyond all doubt.

01:10:32.720 I have no doubt.

01:10:33.620 However, when you bring in the top guns and they challenge every little thing, not just

01:10:39.480 pre-trial, but during the trial, all it takes is one mistake for years down the road is to

01:10:45.340 come back on appeal, assuming you can get all 12 to agree to a unanimous verdict.

01:10:50.760 That's why it's appealing sometimes for prosecutors to close it out to a life sentence.

01:10:57.260 However, I think they're under too much pressure now.

01:11:02.260 They know how the public reacted when Brian Kohlberger, who they also had dead to rights

01:11:06.920 in Idaho, was given, you know, basically a commutation from the death penalty to life

01:11:12.920 in prison because we knew he was going to be found guilty at trial.

01:11:15.700 And we knew that he'd get death in Idaho.

01:11:17.600 And you've already had Spencer Cox, the governor of Utah, say, I want to remind everybody that

01:11:21.240 we have the death penalty in Utah.

01:11:23.180 His first reaction, the top official in the state.

01:11:25.480 Then they caught the guy.

01:11:26.860 Then they said, we are going for death.

01:11:29.320 Like nothing has happened to mitigate that at all.

01:11:32.120 And they have confessions.

01:11:34.140 They have the weapon.

01:11:35.140 They have the bullets, the bullet casings, the writings about his bullets and his bullet

01:11:38.680 casings to the lover, the parents to whom he confessed, the neighborhood priest or whatever

01:11:44.300 that guy was, the sort of a youth minister to whom he confessed.

01:11:47.380 This it's done.

01:11:48.340 I disagree.

01:11:49.120 I don't think they should take a plea.

01:11:50.960 I think they should try the case that they have to.

01:11:52.600 I didn't advocate it.

01:11:54.520 I'm just saying it's very likely that that is certainly the purpose of the defense.

01:11:59.500 That's what they're going to do.

01:12:00.260 I was just wondering, and maybe they don't have all the elements that they have in the

01:12:04.820 Luigi Mangione case.

01:12:06.460 But how come the feds, who obviously are personally involved here, right?

01:12:10.320 President Trump, you know, love Charlie Kirk.

01:12:13.200 How come the feds haven't dropped an indictment on him the way they did here in Luigi?

01:12:17.120 Luigi, they said, oh, he stalked him from state to state.

01:12:20.560 Charlie Kirk was in a different state every 15 minutes.

01:12:23.260 I'm sure they could thread that needle in an indictment to come after him federally as well.

01:12:27.720 Well, I think the feds were worried in Luigi that the New York lame prosecutors weren't

01:12:33.620 going to handle this well.

01:12:34.860 And I don't think the prosecutors, the federal prosecutors have that concern about Utah.

01:12:39.000 So far, Utah's doing what it needs to do to proceed with an aggressive prosecution against

01:12:43.480 him.

01:12:43.740 So I have no doubt that if they get a different signal, they will find a way that Pam Bonney and

01:12:48.400 Cash Patel will take another fresh look at this case and find a way of getting it.

01:12:51.080 All right, let's do our last case.

01:12:52.880 This is a civil case.

01:12:55.200 It's an ACLU lawsuit, speaking of Charlie, over a vile post that a Ball State University

01:13:04.380 professor in Muncie, Indiana posted after Charlie's death.

01:13:09.480 She posted, by the way, this is what she does for Ball State.

01:13:11.860 Her office developed health and wellness programming for university students, including a program

01:13:17.280 that provides survivor support and victim advocacy for students who have experienced

01:13:23.360 intimate partner violence.

01:13:25.780 So she helps women who are claiming that they've been abused by a partner and things related

01:13:31.000 to that.

01:13:32.120 The day after Charlie was murdered, she posted on her private Facebook page, quote, if you

01:13:37.480 think Charlie Kirk was a wonderful person, we cannot be friends.

01:13:40.380 His death is a tragedy, and I can do and feel for his wife and children.

01:13:48.020 I believe in the resurrection.

01:13:50.060 And while it's difficult, I can and do pray for his soul.

01:13:54.460 Charlie Kirk's death is a reflection of violence, fear, and hatred he sowed.

01:14:00.620 Well, she got fired. 1.00

01:14:02.980 There was a bunch of pushback on her. 1.00

01:14:04.600 The Indiana attorney general mentioned it on X, calling her comments vile. 0.78

01:14:08.100 And next thing you know, she got the boot and the ACLU has now filed a lawsuit saying this

01:14:15.000 is a public university.

01:14:16.100 So the First Amendment does apply and that this is a violation of her First Amendment rights.

01:14:21.860 She was on a private Facebook page saying her private thoughts about a public concern.

01:14:28.620 And that's where you kind of get the most protection, where you're talking as a citizen about a matter

01:14:35.260 of public concern, and that they had no grounds to fire her.

01:14:39.360 Mark, your thoughts on it?

01:14:40.920 Yeah, it's unconstitutional what they did to her. 1.00

01:14:43.240 And before the hate mail comes in, I'm not even addressing the message.

01:14:46.340 Let's put that to the side, right? 0.91

01:14:48.260 She didn't advocate, let's kill someone as a result of this.

01:14:51.260 So it's constitutionally protected speech.

01:14:53.440 It's a matter of public opinion.

01:14:55.620 The Supreme Court has made it very clear.

01:14:57.700 You can say outrageous and offensive things.

01:15:00.520 That's constitutionally protected speech.

01:15:02.820 Now, the question is, in the Pickering case, we learned that in law school, the three criteria,

01:15:09.080 there we go.

01:15:09.900 Number one, did it disrupt the workplace?

01:15:12.120 No.

01:15:13.040 Number two, did it interfere with the employee's ability to do their job?

01:15:17.540 No.

01:15:18.340 Did it undermine the institution's mission?

01:15:21.980 No.

01:15:22.880 She posted this privately.

01:15:24.880 Hold on one second, because it didn't happen.

01:15:27.040 She posted this privately, and then somebody took that privately, the same way as if she

01:15:32.860 were to say at a party to somebody's ear, and then somebody makes that public.

01:15:37.260 It is.

01:15:37.600 And quite frankly, what they're doing is they're punishing her for exercising her speech.

01:15:43.520 Keep the hate mail.

01:15:44.500 Now, I'm not getting into whether it was offensive or not.

01:15:48.320 That's not the issue.

01:15:49.920 Because let's say she said things like-

01:15:51.520 Mark doesn't like the nasty comments he gets after his comment.

01:15:54.460 It's part of the job.

01:15:55.400 I don't care.

01:15:55.840 Wait, I got your point.

01:15:56.960 Let's go to Arthur now.

01:15:57.940 Come on.

01:15:58.140 We have to have a snappier debate.

01:15:59.700 Go, Arthur.

01:16:00.420 No, no, no. 1.00

01:16:00.920 I mean, the bottom line is, I mean, we have to be able to speak freely no matter how stupid 0.98

01:16:06.020 it is what we say and how, you know, I disagree. 0.99

01:16:10.200 I think it's a tragedy, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:16:12.760 But, but, Megan, you know, they can't shut you down.

01:16:16.300 They shouldn't shut me, you know, even though you're in the private sector.

01:16:18.600 But if you were in the public sector, they-

01:16:21.800 But this is a school.

01:16:22.720 This is a school.

01:16:23.500 So there's a different-

01:16:24.220 You're not factoring in the balancing test there.

01:16:26.220 I mean, the balancing test.

01:16:27.240 What I say with Mark-

01:16:28.160 So let me start with this.

01:16:29.200 I think it's probably going to be-

01:16:31.020 I think Mark's probably right.

01:16:32.540 I think the speech is probably-

01:16:33.660 Thank God you agree with me on this.

01:16:35.520 She's probably going to-

01:16:36.400 Come on.

01:16:36.580 She's probably-

01:16:37.420 Because they're coming for your speech.

01:16:39.240 If you don't defend her, Megan, they're coming for you.

01:16:42.060 And that's not right.

01:16:43.300 They're not coming for me, but-

01:16:44.700 Well, you know what I'm saying.

01:16:45.640 Any public employee who says the same thing that you're saying, maybe she says something

01:16:50.160 positive about Charlie Kirk, and then they-

01:16:52.760 I got it.

01:16:53.460 I got it.

01:16:54.240 Okay.

01:16:54.520 All right.

01:16:54.940 Good.

01:16:55.220 But I don't agree that we know this for sure, because under the balancing test, you have

01:16:59.600 to look at whether she disrupted the campus life at Ball State, and how severe the disruption

01:17:06.640 was, and whether she was capable of doing her job after this.

01:17:09.520 And you're going to tell me in Indiana, the whole student body is leftist.

01:17:14.060 They're not, because it's Indiana.

01:17:16.180 So my point is simply, you've got maybe some percentage, some fair amount of students who

01:17:20.780 are going to go before her and need her rape counseling services or her intimate partner 0.71

01:17:24.900 violence services.

01:17:26.280 And they know that this person has written the words, if you think Charlie Kirk was a

01:17:32.680 wonderful person, we cannot be friends.

01:17:35.160 She can't be around you.

01:17:36.920 She has a hatred for you that stops her from being able to be in your presence in any sort

01:17:41.600 of a warm and welcoming way. 1.00

01:17:43.600 So fuck off, Suzanne Squire. 1.00

01:17:46.780 That's her name. 1.00

01:17:47.420 Here we go.

01:17:47.740 Yeah, we got there.

01:17:48.540 But I'm just saying, you could make the case.

01:17:50.940 No, I'm not done.

01:17:52.120 You could make the case that she is not capable of doing that particular job anymore after 0.99

01:17:58.260 that, because the students don't trust her, and they're already in a vulnerable spot.

01:18:02.100 And we don't know whether this has been disruptive, severely disruptive on campus.

01:18:07.240 Go ahead, Arthur.

01:18:07.800 Hey, Megan.

01:18:08.440 No, no, no, no, no, no.

01:18:09.340 Wait, Mark, hold on one second.

01:18:11.180 It's Arthur's turn.

01:18:12.420 Mark, you're so annoying today.

01:18:13.480 I love you, but be quiet.

01:18:14.560 Go ahead.

01:18:14.900 So here's what we're not factoring in, and it's a known quantity.

01:18:19.460 I have two Facebook pages.

01:18:21.320 My main one is at maximum, it's 5,000.

01:18:24.280 My personal one is like at 100.

01:18:26.480 How personal was her personal Facebook page?

01:18:30.140 Does it bleed into what Megan says?

01:18:32.160 Is she friends with people on campus?

01:18:33.880 Is she friends with students on Facebook?

01:18:35.900 So they all heard, or is it just her aunt and uncle who live in Queens and nobody knows?

01:18:40.720 So that's a relevant fact here to this balancing test.

01:18:45.820 Now everybody knows about it.

01:18:47.620 Before everybody knew about it, how many people did it actually affect?

01:18:51.440 And does it affect the people Megan just referenced who need to go and seek out her services?

01:18:55.660 That is a fair statement.

01:18:56.780 I'm not comfortable with this woman. 1.00

01:18:58.100 That's a fair statement.

01:18:59.160 My guess is, okay, probably she said this.

01:19:02.620 It became, you know, public.

01:19:04.600 And they just absolutely said, that's it, you're out.

01:19:07.260 But Megan, I want to just turn it around.

01:19:09.140 Let's say her comments were, Charlie, because what a loss it was.

01:19:14.080 He was the best and everything that flowed from his lips was fair.

01:19:17.640 And then there were some black students who then say, I cannot see this woman about anything 0.93

01:19:22.280 because I didn't like Charlie, Chris.

01:19:24.220 I don't like what this woman has said favorable about Charlie.

01:19:29.180 And so she can't do her job and I want her fired. 1.00

01:19:31.840 My guess is you would be fighting equally passionate about her keeping her job

01:19:36.240 because the words were favorable.

01:19:39.140 Well, I'd have to show those black students the piece that I am dropping tomorrow, 1.00

01:19:44.560 defending Charlie on the absurd allegations of racism against him.

01:19:48.360 I have all the receipts.

01:19:50.320 And after those women or imaginary students see that piece, they would withdraw that objection. 0.99

01:19:55.080 But as I say, I do think this is constitutionally protected speech from what I've heard so far.

01:19:59.580 I don't love it, but that's our country.

01:20:01.580 It's there.

01:20:02.160 The First Amendment is there to protect speech you don't like, not speech that you do.

01:20:05.520 Guys, a pleasure.

01:20:07.340 Everybody check out Mark and Arthur on MK True Crime.

01:20:10.980 And also go get your tickets for Megyn Kelly live at megankelly.com so you can meet these guys in person.

01:20:17.200 And then you can tell Mark right to his face how wrong he's been on so many, many things.

01:20:21.420 All right, guys.

01:20:23.940 Lots of love.

01:20:24.560 See you soon.

01:20:25.440 Thanks, Meg.

01:20:26.040 Take care.

01:20:26.500 Bye.

01:20:26.840 Bye.

01:20:27.320 Up next, speaking of MK True Crime, we've got Dave Ehrenberg and Phil Holloway.

01:20:31.800 And Phil has breaking news on Fannie Willis.

01:20:36.000 Oh, yes, he does.

01:20:36.980 Stay tuned for that.

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01:21:58.680 We absolutely have to keep talking.

01:22:05.180 It's more important now than ever.

01:22:07.140 This fall, Megyn Kelly is taking her show live to cities nationwide.

01:22:11.940 To go silent is not the answer.

01:22:14.280 I'm going.

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01:22:19.640 the time on this show.

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01:23:00.820 Offer details apply.

01:23:06.060 Just letting you know that the sentencing hearing is at lunch, so we're not getting additional

01:23:10.960 updates, but we'll know soon enough.

01:23:12.500 Now we're joined for two more of the stars by two more of the stars of MK True Crime.

01:23:17.500 Dave Ehrenberg, former Palm Beach County District Attorney, and Phil Holloway, star of the Fannie

01:23:23.600 Willis Case.

01:23:24.640 He wasn't directly involved, but that's when we came to know and love him.

01:23:27.300 You can find them at mktruecrime.com and subscribe on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, wherever you get

01:23:33.000 your podcasts, okay?

01:23:34.460 mktruecrime.com, and that'll give you all the links.

01:23:37.180 Dave, Phil, welcome back.

01:23:38.360 And Phil, happy birthday.

01:23:40.580 Oh, thank you very much.

01:23:41.580 I was telling Dave, I'm waiting for him to sing happy birthday to me in a video and post

01:23:46.720 it on X, and then my day will be complete.

01:23:48.700 Oh, God.

01:23:50.020 We'll do it after the show's over.

01:23:51.620 Stick around, Dave.

01:23:52.260 You and I will work on that.

01:23:53.660 Phil, for your birthday, I'm letting you start first and tell us what the heck is happening

01:23:57.040 with Fannie Willis.

01:23:58.540 Well, a couple of things.

01:23:59.880 We just learned today, a friend of mine, Senator Dolezal, Greg Dolezal here in Georgia,

01:24:05.060 is on the Senate committee that's investigating this whole fiasco and looking to see what the

01:24:11.160 legislature might be able to do to maybe rein in rogue prosecutors or to improve the process

01:24:18.120 for funding prosecutors' offices.

01:24:20.120 So they've been conducting hearings.

01:24:21.820 They've been trying to get Willis to sit down under oath for some time.

01:24:25.520 She's been fighting these subpoenas in court, but he just texted me earlier, and I posted

01:24:30.700 about this, I think, on X, that they've got her to come to the Senate, I guess, in just

01:24:38.000 a couple of weeks here, in the middle of November, where she will be testifying under oath, answering

01:24:42.260 committee questions, or at least saying something under oath, whatever that may be.

01:24:47.760 Also, this broke a couple of days ago, or maybe a week or so ago, the Department of Justice

01:24:52.680 is subpoenaing travel records for her.

01:24:57.160 What we know about it, has been reported by the New York Times and others, is that it has

01:25:01.560 to do with travel records, as I understand it, from 2024.

01:25:04.860 Now, you may remember that the case against Donald Trump and the rest, the RICO case that

01:25:11.520 she had here in Fulton County, she was booted off that case by the Court of Appeals late

01:25:17.180 in 2024.

01:25:18.320 So she was still actively working on it, as was her office, throughout most of 2024.

01:25:24.100 We know that there are billing records that suggest some coordination or perhaps collusion

01:25:29.240 with the Joe Biden White House.

01:25:31.240 My best guess, and I could very well be wrong, but I think probably they are looking at ties

01:25:38.060 to maybe the Biden White House or any involvement or collusion cooperation in that regard.

01:25:44.560 But what the Department of Justice is exactly up to, they've been keeping it fairly close

01:25:50.240 to the vest.

01:25:50.960 And so we may have to wait and see.

01:25:52.520 The Department of Justice is certainly not showing their hand, but we know that they

01:25:57.820 have issued a subpoena, and I imagine it's going to have to be complied with.

01:26:02.520 I mean, this is what she said famously when she took the stand in the disqualification 0.94

01:26:07.480 hearing.

01:26:07.940 Here it is.

01:26:09.940 As he told me one time, the only thing a woman can do for him is make him a sandwich.

01:26:13.480 We would have brutal arguments about the fact that I am your equal.

01:26:19.280 I don't need anything from a man.

01:26:20.880 A man is not a plan. 0.97

01:26:23.080 That turned out to be very true, Dave Ehrenberg.

01:26:25.260 A man was not a plan for her. 0.89

01:26:27.040 It was a plan to get herself booted off the case. 1.00

01:26:30.600 And now she's twisting in the wind, having to deal with these subpoenas and going to testify 0.86

01:26:34.260 before the Senate committee, and this case is in limbo, never to be re-brought.

01:26:38.320 I think that's what Phil has said.

01:26:39.720 There's no prosecutor willing to take it.

01:26:41.380 And that's all because they couldn't keep it in their pants.

01:26:45.220 Yeah, this was not the finest moment for the prosecutor profession.

01:26:50.160 I was a fellow DA at the time, and you can't appoint someone you're having a romantic relationship

01:26:56.040 with as a special prosecutor and getting paid by tax dollars.

01:26:59.800 And then when you put things in court pleadings under oath, you better make sure it's truthful.

01:27:06.160 And so this whole thing was a mess.

01:27:07.760 And so now this case has gone away.

01:27:09.300 It's not coming back.

01:27:10.560 I do wonder about federal jurisdiction here, considering she's a state official, not a

01:27:15.720 federal official.

01:27:16.560 So if they want to ring her up on—

01:27:17.960 That's enough of that.

01:27:19.660 No offense, but I've lost interest.

01:27:21.680 Okay, let's keep going because we have so many cases I do want to get through with you guys.

01:27:24.980 Number one, okay, let's go to the U.S. Supreme Court.

01:27:26.740 There is a case that's coming up soon.

01:27:29.580 It's out of Colorado, and it involves this attempted ban by Colorado on, quote, conversion

01:27:36.960 therapy.

01:27:37.800 This is something they used to do, like, in the 50s when a kid said he was gay.

01:27:41.000 They'd try to talk him out of being gay. 0.99

01:27:42.300 You're not gay. 0.86

01:27:43.280 You're straight.

01:27:43.920 Be straight. 0.98

01:27:44.460 Don't be gay. 1.00

01:27:45.600 And, you know, it's really kind of tough to talk somebody out of being gay.

01:27:50.600 And the Colorado law, though, is not really—I mean, it technically does get at that, but

01:27:55.620 that's not really happening in today's day and age.

01:27:57.720 They're really getting at therapists who want to talk to kids who say they're trans about

01:28:05.500 whether they are really trans or whether they're upset because their parents are getting a

01:28:10.060 divorce or whether they have an eating disorder that's manifesting in some sort of bodily,

01:28:13.980 you know, sensitivity that they're mistaking for gender confusion. 0.96

01:28:18.340 That's basically banned now, thanks to this Colorado law.

01:28:21.980 It's a crazy-ass law because it basically stops a therapist from being a therapist. 0.91

01:28:26.940 And perfectly in line, by the way, with what the American Psychiatric Society and the pediatrics

01:28:32.060 groups are telling these therapists to do anyway, which is affirm, affirm, affirm, affirm.

01:28:36.680 Don't do any good-faith searching of the child's actual issues.

01:28:39.400 It's crazy.

01:28:41.060 But Colorado wrote it down and put it in law and made it actually, like, a law that you cannot discuss

01:28:46.860 possibly telling the kid he is the gender that he was born, the sex that he was born,

01:28:54.060 and not going down the conversion lane of let's do another gender. 1.00

01:28:58.340 So, this therapist has filed the lawsuit saying this violates—her name is Kaylee Childs—saying,

01:29:06.700 you violating my free speech rights here because that's what I do, talk therapy, and you are

01:29:12.960 telling me, like, as a matter of law, that I can't say certain things and I have to say other things.

01:29:21.020 So, I'll start with you on this, Dave.

01:29:22.480 How is she wrong?

01:29:24.800 Well, first, I think the Supreme Court is going to rule in her favor.

01:29:27.840 And we had experience with this here in Palm Beach County where there was a local ordinance

01:29:32.460 that banned conversion therapy when it came to sexual orientation, and it was found by

01:29:38.420 the 11th Circuit Court of Appeal in a divided panel that that was unconstitutional and the

01:29:43.900 local county had to pay up.

01:29:46.100 I don't know if that extended to gender identity.

01:29:50.740 I would take issue on—I do think that, at least personally, even though the court is going

01:29:56.000 to rule opposite, I do think that when you have these therapists out there who are essentially 0.83

01:30:01.400 saying you can pray the gay away, I think that's just hooey. 1.00

01:30:05.720 I think that's just a quack. 0.98

01:30:08.300 And I do think the state can regulate health care like in other areas and can say, no, we're

01:30:14.260 not going to let you do it because at the same time, we're not going to let, like, a doctor

01:30:17.680 urge a lung cancer patient to take up smoking.

01:30:21.280 And that was actually in the brief for Colorado.

01:30:24.400 So I think when it comes to that, I actually think Colorado has a good argument there.

01:30:28.860 But when it comes to gender identity, I understand that when you are about to do something that

01:30:36.600 could have a permanent change in your life, have permanent ramifications, then I can see

01:30:42.060 how that would be different.

01:30:43.000 So I do think the court's going to rule for the therapist here, but I would disagree when

01:30:48.680 it comes to sexual orientation.

01:30:51.080 Me too, because here's the status of it, Phil.

01:30:53.400 The district court in Colorado rejected the therapist's request to stop the state from

01:30:58.960 enforcing this law against her.

01:31:00.360 And then she appealed.

01:31:02.140 It went up to a divided three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit.

01:31:07.140 And the Tenth Circuit upheld the district court ruling.

01:31:10.520 So she lost again.

01:31:12.620 And they said this law primarily regulates conduct, not speech, professional conduct.

01:31:19.060 And therefore, it's not constitutional.

01:31:21.180 And the Supreme Court took it out.

01:31:23.780 The Supreme Court could have said, we let it stand, the Tenth Circuit decision, but they

01:31:27.700 didn't.

01:31:28.100 They said, give us a shot at it.

01:31:30.040 And I totally agree with Dave that they are going to say, you guys got it wrong.

01:31:34.560 And this therapist cannot be hamstrung by the law telling her she can't therapize the

01:31:40.620 kid the way she sees fit.

01:31:42.440 So I'm going to break some news to you and maybe to the world here, because most people

01:31:47.000 maybe don't know this.

01:31:48.700 There are actually a lot of people who go to work and put on black robes in America who 0.92

01:31:55.660 are true nut jobs.

01:31:57.160 And that explains why we have a lot of these lower court rulings that are flat contrary to

01:32:02.940 the law.

01:32:03.720 The First Amendment is really, really clear here.

01:32:06.280 You can't go inside the treatment room or the therapist's office and dictate to a therapist

01:32:13.820 who uses talk therapy.

01:32:15.900 That's the tools of her trade. 1.00

01:32:17.940 If a person comes in there and says, look, I have these issues that are gender dysphoria

01:32:23.820 issues.

01:32:24.880 I don't like feeling this way.

01:32:26.660 I want you to help me feel a different way.

01:32:30.120 The state of Colorado is going to come in and say, no, no, it's illegal for you to do

01:32:34.540 that.

01:32:35.020 The only thing you can do is affirm their feelings that they say they do not want.

01:32:41.200 So if you're a therapist and someone comes into your office and says, I want you to help

01:32:44.820 me try to feel a different way, to feel like maybe the gender I was at birth, right?

01:32:51.340 My birth gender.

01:32:52.460 I don't like feeling this way.

01:32:53.940 Will you help me?

01:32:54.640 You're going to have to say, no, no, no, I can't because they're going to take my license.

01:32:58.180 They're going to take my livelihood.

01:32:59.860 How that is not a violation of free speech and probably other things, I don't know.

01:33:04.820 I think the Supreme Court is going to obviously rule.

01:33:08.100 I agree with Dave.

01:33:08.980 They're going to rule in favor of the plaintiff here.

01:33:12.440 I disagree with Dave a little bit because I think Colorado's entire argument is specious.

01:33:17.260 Of course, the states can regulate therapists and doctors, but this goes beyond mere regulation.

01:33:23.300 This is getting into the sanctity of that relationship between a therapist and a patient.

01:33:29.300 These people can come into the doctor or to the therapist and say, I've got this real issue.

01:33:33.860 I want your help.

01:33:34.720 Well, the therapist has to be able to legally help them with what they state their issue is and what they want help with.

01:33:41.880 It's just really simple.

01:33:42.920 It's crazy.

01:33:43.180 This is genuinely endangering children, this law.

01:33:45.860 I mean, it's going to be thrown out.

01:33:47.360 Thank God we have the Supreme Court.

01:33:48.940 We do.

01:33:49.260 I will say Colorado's arguing that the only thing the law prohibits therapists from doing is performing a treatment that seeks the predetermined outcome of changing a minor's gender identity.

01:34:03.400 Because they're saying, we're only going to come after you, therapists, if when the kid walks in there, you're saying in your head, no way am I letting this kid change genders.

01:34:11.540 That's not a thing, which is the correct thing to do, by the way.

01:34:15.580 But I just don't think that's going to be upheld, even if the court believes that's all it would encompass.

01:34:20.960 And it's going to be very hard for Colorado to prove that was in her head.

01:34:24.180 She had a predetermined versus she did an open searching examination with the child and then determined this isn't a real case of gender confusion.

01:34:30.780 Anyway, I think this thing's going away.

01:34:32.060 Let's keep going.

01:34:33.040 Another case involving the trans issue, I think, is going up.

01:34:36.800 Dave, you're going to tell me what's going to happen now, because there's two cases on the trans athletes.

01:34:41.540 Boys crossing into girls sports.

01:34:43.600 One is out of Idaho.

01:34:44.900 One's out of West Virginia.

01:34:46.200 And what happened in Idaho is there is a law that banned all trans kids, meaning boys pretending to be girls, from participating in or even trying out for girls sports in the public schools K through 12.

01:34:59.960 It was signed in 2020 by the current governor out there, Brad Little.

01:35:04.060 Again, this is Idaho.

01:35:05.300 It was the first state to pass such a law.

01:35:07.060 So good on them.

01:35:07.660 And this young boy claiming to be a girl who's now a freshman at university says, I I've been hurt by this.

01:35:18.180 I wanted to play the girls sports and I wasn't allowed.

01:35:20.620 I intended to try out for women's track and cross country and I couldn't because of this law.

01:35:25.060 And so I'm suing now the district court issued a preliminary injunction against the law saying this isn't constitutional, Idaho.

01:35:34.760 You can't do this.

01:35:35.580 Then it went up to the very liberal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals and they said, yeah, we side with the district court.

01:35:41.300 You can't do this to young boys pretending to be girls.

01:35:43.620 They have a right to try to get on the girls team. 1.00

01:35:46.580 And then Idaho appealed to the Supreme Court of the United States and they took the case.

01:35:51.500 Again, that's another good sign for team sanity.

01:35:54.420 And then the plaintiff, the boy pretending to be a girl, requested that the lawsuit be dropped because he knows as well as we know the high court is going to side with us, meaning team sanity.

01:36:09.340 And there is no way they are going to reverse this Idaho law.

01:36:13.160 So, Dave, what does the Supreme Court do?

01:36:15.640 Because the Alliance Defending Freedom, which is a great group, which is defending Idaho in part, has said, oh, hell no, you can't do this.

01:36:24.280 You cannot drop it.

01:36:25.840 You know, this is a live issue that's going to be coming over and over and over again.

01:36:29.560 You need to hear the case.

01:36:31.440 Right.

01:36:31.620 Well, they also have that West Virginia case.

01:36:33.140 So they're going to hear both, I think.

01:36:35.120 And I think the reason is because the Supreme Court wants to rule in this area, as does Idaho.

01:36:40.920 They want the Supreme Court, six of three, conservative majority, to weigh in here.

01:36:45.240 This was a mistake by the transgender legal advocates when it came to the Scrimetti case.

01:36:50.980 Remember, that was a big deal.

01:36:52.100 There was a press conference.

01:36:53.020 We're going to go to the Supreme Court and we're going to stand up for transgender rights when it came to Tennessee's gender-affirming care.

01:36:59.540 And the Supreme Court ruled six-three against the plaintiffs.

01:37:03.040 They ruled for Tennessee that you can ban gender-affirming care for underage individuals.

01:37:08.400 And it was a big loss for the transgender community.

01:37:11.200 And they see that happening now when it comes to sports.

01:37:14.840 And so now I do see that as the reason why they're trying to back away from this.

01:37:18.780 They are saying, well, let's give in.

01:37:20.920 Let's not let the Supreme Court rule because that would be a national ruling that would have huge ramifications.

01:37:26.520 So I do think the Supreme Court is going to rule on it.

01:37:29.080 I think it will be six-three again, just like in the Scrimetti ruling.

01:37:32.380 And I think it will have lasting implications.

01:37:35.540 Mm-hmm.

01:37:35.980 I agree.

01:37:36.660 Now, wait, Phel, do you want to weigh in quickly?

01:37:38.100 Because I do want to get to one other case.

01:37:39.600 Yeah, real quick.

01:37:40.320 I think what's getting lost here, everything these plaintiffs are talking about is that their 14th Amendment rights are being violated.

01:37:48.320 It's the rights of the girls on the team to play same-sex sports, right? 1.00

01:37:54.600 It's their choice.

01:37:56.060 They have the right to free association under the First Amendment.

01:37:58.960 They signed up, and they choose to be part of an all-girls team.

01:38:03.120 You can't force them to accept a boy on their team because that violates their First Amendment rights.

01:38:09.300 So you have, I think, a very compelling interest here for the U.S. Supreme Court to step in and say, you know what?

01:38:16.040 Freedom of association means something.

01:38:17.820 And if these women, these girls on these sports teams, if they want to play all-girls sports, the government has to protect it. 0.75

01:38:25.300 I think that's what's going to happen.

01:38:27.020 I mean, I feel like if you're a transgender activist, you'd rather have the Idaho case in front of the court than the West Virginia one because in the West Virginia one, there's allegations.

01:38:35.980 They're just allegations.

01:38:37.180 We have to hear whether there's a denial. 0.99

01:38:39.680 But the allegation is that the trans athlete there allegedly was saying to at least one of the girls who was a teammate of his when he was on her team, you can suck my D, this person said to her.

01:38:53.060 That they made much more, many other more explicit statements like, I'm going to stick my D into your whatever, and sometimes added, and also this other place as well, that she allegedly told her parents and told her coach and the school's administration, the school said it was investigating, but she never heard back.

01:39:12.320 This is, and she, the girl is claiming she can name six students or didn't name who could corroborate her allegations.

01:39:18.360 This is not a case that the trans lobby wants going in front of Samuel Alito.

01:39:24.920 It's not going to end well.

01:39:26.260 And Megan, also in that case, West Virginia case, the athlete won the shot put competition by more than three feet, whereas in the Idaho case, the athlete was worse than the women and couldn't even make the team.

01:39:40.660 So, yeah, you're right.

01:39:41.900 I do think the West Virginia case is going to be worse for the transgender community.

01:39:44.940 Okay, so in the limited time we have left, there's this singer and TikTok star named David.

01:39:52.180 They spell it D, the numeral 4, V, D.

01:39:56.560 His name is really David Anthony Burke.

01:39:58.520 He's 20, and he has 3.8 million followers on TikTok, 2 million on Insta, and something bizarre happened with him.

01:40:05.940 Officers on September 8th responded to an impound lot in Hollywood for a, quote, foul odor coming from a vehicle.

01:40:13.540 They located a body in the front truck of a Tesla that was in a state of decomposition.

01:40:20.880 They said all they found, they described it as a head and torso found inside a bag.

01:40:25.920 Well, they matched that head and torso to a missing teen, 15-year-old Celeste Rivas Hernandez, who was from Riverside County, who was reported missing in April at 2024 at just 13, but was 15, dead in the car.

01:40:42.400 The LA Times reported Celeste was reporting missing three times in 2024.

01:40:46.360 Police said the teen may have been dead for several weeks before her body was discovered.

01:40:50.640 Her mother claims before she went missing, she had a boyfriend named David.

01:40:56.060 Following ID of the body, an LA home where David had been living was searched.

01:41:00.080 The Tesla was reportedly located not far from his $20,000 a month rental home.

01:41:07.480 At least he was staying in the home.

01:41:09.320 TMZ reports that his manager is the person on the lease, but again, this guy David appears to have been staying there, not all the time, but frequently.

01:41:16.800 The Los Angeles medical examiner has not yet determined the cause or manner of death.

01:41:21.600 It's a pending investigation, and her remains were found a day after her 15th birthday.

01:41:27.620 She was not pregnant.

01:41:28.540 It's being investigated as a homicide, and now TMZ is reporting that they are looking in this home for blood evidence using luminol.

01:41:40.900 Just want to say we only have a minute left on SiriusXM, so we're going to carry it over just a bit onto podcast and YouTube.com slash Megan Kelly.

01:41:47.520 But in the minute we have here, your thoughts on this, Phil, because this does not look so great.

01:41:54.700 Yeah, there's laws obviously against homicide, but there's also laws against concealing a death, and there's laws against mutilating a corpse.

01:42:01.480 So why there has been no arrest made is a head scratcher.

01:42:04.940 I can't quite figure that one out.

01:42:06.620 They can always add additional charges later, but somebody, and I think we know who, has hidden this death from the public.

01:42:15.760 They've concealed it, right, to the point that it was decomposing and causing people to complain about the smell.

01:42:20.860 So I think there's an arrest that could be made, and they need to do it soon. 0.93

01:42:23.860 Who would be so dumb as to put the dead body that they were responsible for, Dave, in their own car and then just leave it sitting there?

01:42:33.760 It's such a good point, Megan, and perhaps that answers Phil's question as to why there is not an arrest. 0.96

01:42:39.060 Maybe they're thinking this is too obvious because if we're going to arrest someone for concealing a body, why would it be the guy who owns the car, who lives nearby?

01:42:47.200 And that doesn't seem to make any sense.

01:42:49.540 Now, it is telling that the mother of the victim claims that before she went missing, she said she had a boyfriend named David.

01:42:57.120 So this is not good for this guy.

01:43:00.000 I've never heard of him, quite frankly, but I'm not surprised.

01:43:02.240 I haven't heard a lot of these music stars these days.

01:43:04.500 But I think more evidence will have to come in before the prosecutors will make an arrest.

01:43:10.080 Yeah.

01:43:10.360 I mean, right now, all they have is the body and a possible relationship between these two.

01:43:16.200 So, Phil, I mean, without physical evidence at this guy's home or, you know, on his person, it actually could be tough to make a murder charge against him.

01:43:25.800 They're going to have to find some physical link or maybe some statements that he made.

01:43:30.220 But look, they're looking at online messaging.

01:43:32.460 They're looking at Discord communications.

01:43:34.300 They're even investigating the language that he uses for the lyrics in some of his product, whatever you call that.

01:43:42.360 So, you know, they're going to have to tie it up.

01:43:44.540 You mentioned those song lyrics, Phil.

01:43:47.800 And according to TMZ, an unreleased song was leaked on SoundCloud in December 2023 by David.

01:43:57.400 He sings about a woman named Celeste.

01:44:00.500 When it was leaked, it was titled Celeste Demo Unfin, like unfinished.

01:44:05.060 Oh, Celeste, the girl with my name tattooed on her chest.

01:44:09.320 Smell her on my clothes like cigarettes.

01:44:11.640 I hear her voice each time I take a breath.

01:44:13.820 I'm obsessed.

01:44:15.120 The next verse also features the name.

01:44:17.160 Oh, Celeste, afraid you'll only love me when undressed.

01:44:20.380 But you look so damn gorgeous in that dress.

01:44:23.000 Missing you so much makes me depressed.

01:44:24.900 But I digress because and then TMZ also reports that there are disturbing lyrics about killing in his 2022 song, one of his top songs called Romantic Homicide.

01:44:39.360 And we actually have a clip of that.

01:44:41.340 Here it is.

01:44:42.360 The man of my mind. 1.00

01:44:45.900 I killed you. 0.99

01:44:49.100 And I didn't even regret it. 0.99

01:44:52.980 I can't believe I said it.

01:44:56.800 But it's true. 1.00

01:45:04.320 I hate you. 0.99

01:45:07.260 Oh, boy. 1.00

01:45:12.080 For the listening audience, it's showing a dead woman bloody on a bed and him blindfolded.

01:45:18.120 And you heard the lyrics in the back of my mind. 1.00

01:45:19.860 I killed you. 0.96

01:45:20.680 I didn't even regret it. 0.99

01:45:21.940 I can't believe I said it.

01:45:22.960 But it's true. 1.00

01:45:23.480 I hate you.

01:45:24.640 I know you're a former prosecutor, Dave. 0.83

01:45:26.960 You were prosecuting these cases about a year ago.

01:45:29.800 How helpful is that?

01:45:31.700 I think it is helpful.

01:45:32.700 And this is why I've always opposed attempts that exist in various states to make music lyrics inadmissible in court because prosecutors have used rap lyrics to go after violent gangs.

01:45:45.200 And they say, you can't do that.

01:45:46.720 That's First Amendment.

01:45:47.560 And it doesn't mean anything.

01:45:48.800 Well, it does mean something.

01:45:49.900 A lot of this stuff is a confession.

01:45:51.840 It also is telling that apparently the tattoo, she had a tattoo on her finger that was the same one that David has.

01:45:58.060 So I don't know about the whole thing on the chest.

01:46:00.320 That read S-H-H-H, like be quiet, which is disturbing.

01:46:04.200 Yeah, exactly.

01:46:06.580 So all that stuff should be admissible.

01:46:08.340 And thankfully, it's still admissible because that's why these laws are so just even though they want to be fair to defendants, they are so misguided because they could set defendants free.

01:46:18.320 We just FYI, according to TMZ, we don't know when they first met, but there is a photo of them together, reports TMZ, at an event in L.A. in October 2023, which would have dated back to when she was 13 and he was 17.

01:46:37.360 That's no bueno, that age difference.

01:46:40.320 And she also, you mentioned this, Phil, appeared in streams of David's Twitch and Discord channels.

01:46:46.720 It's very clear they knew each other.

01:46:48.340 TMZ obtained one video in which the woman next to David appears to be Celeste.

01:46:52.720 I think we've got that cut.

01:46:55.380 Yo, yo, wait, wait, wait, wait.

01:46:58.520 Oh, look it.

01:46:59.220 Answer that one.

01:46:59.840 That's so mean if you don't answer that.

01:47:00.800 Which one?

01:47:01.140 Which one?

01:47:01.400 Which one?

01:47:03.360 What's good, David?

01:47:04.060 Big fan.

01:47:04.540 Oh, thank you, Mitch.

01:47:07.760 Mitch O'Connor.

01:47:09.040 Appreciate you.

01:47:09.560 I gotta sign with him if you even...

01:47:11.060 We need to delete this.

01:47:13.880 Maz, can we delete all vibes?

01:47:15.820 And then as soon as the stream ends, delete the stream too?

01:47:18.900 All right, so there's no question these two knew each other.

01:47:21.300 That seems very clear.

01:47:23.240 The only question is, why did she go missing?

01:47:25.620 Obviously, at some point, somebody killed her.

01:47:29.060 And how did her body parts wind up in his car?

01:47:33.100 Can you speak to the thing about...

01:47:34.760 I mean, look, we all have a suspicion here for obvious reasons.

01:47:37.880 But if you actually have to make the case, it's much better to have some physical evidence

01:47:44.040 on him or in his house, like the luminol.

01:47:48.100 If they find her blood in that house, that's good.

01:47:50.840 But even if they find her blood inside that car or his fingerprints inside that car, it doesn't

01:47:56.700 mean he did it.

01:47:57.480 Apparently, it was his car.

01:47:59.020 He drove it.

01:47:59.500 Maybe somebody was framing him.

01:48:00.900 Maybe somebody, maybe the guy who owns his house, right?

01:48:04.300 If I'm a defense lawyer, I'm going to cast the stones everywhere.

01:48:06.840 Like, maybe the manager did it.

01:48:08.280 Maybe the maid did it. 1.00

01:48:10.640 You know, it's really, really unlikely.

01:48:13.480 And I think it's very, very rare that people in real life are actually framed for things.

01:48:20.020 I'm not saying it can't happen.

01:48:21.400 But I think, you know, you mentioned that they obviously knew each other.

01:48:25.280 In my opinion, I think it's clear that it was much more than simply knowing each other.

01:48:30.820 But to your point about physical evidence, obviously, the more evidence prosecutors and

01:48:36.680 police have to make a case, the better off they are when making that case.

01:48:40.340 But there are a lot of people who are rightfully convicted serving long prison sentences on

01:48:46.340 circumstantial evidence alone.

01:48:48.180 Circumstantial evidence, when used the right way, can be extremely powerful.

01:48:53.100 Extremely powerful.

01:48:54.060 And by that, we've got, for example, there are discord messages that say, you know,

01:49:00.220 David is saying that gore is greater than porn.

01:49:02.980 I used to be addicted to watching gore.

01:49:05.820 I love gore.

01:49:07.160 And he's not talking about Al Gore.

01:49:09.140 He's talking about this, you know, something that's essentially a fetish.

01:49:12.920 Yeah.

01:49:13.060 And so now we've got this video with the knife that's, you know, dripping blood and all of

01:49:19.340 these things.

01:49:19.820 And the body parts found in his car near his house, even though his name may not have been

01:49:25.880 on it, all the evidence is that he was living there.

01:49:28.440 And you start putting these things together.

01:49:30.440 And bear in mind, there's obviously going to be things that the police know about that

01:49:34.280 we don't know about.

01:49:35.160 So just taking what we know, and it's already looking very, very bad for singer David.

01:49:41.000 And my wife made me promise not to call him D4VD. 1.00

01:49:44.760 So I won't call him David.

01:49:46.720 But I almost did it too.

01:49:48.300 You know, it's one of these things.

01:49:49.700 I think they can make a strong case.

01:49:51.600 Here's the thing.

01:49:52.480 They found the car.

01:49:53.620 The car was originally on the street, Dave.

01:49:55.860 It wound up in the impound lot because somebody had basically abandoned it.

01:49:59.820 So it was towed to the impound lot.

01:50:02.160 And then after several days, it started to smell and they reported this foul odor.

01:50:07.860 The police came and they found this head and torso in a bag in the trunk.

01:50:13.640 And then the other remains were linked back to this young girl, Celeste, and proven to

01:50:18.540 be hers.

01:50:19.260 Now what we've seen from David is he's stopped with a promotion of his album and he's hired

01:50:26.440 a criminal defense attorney.

01:50:27.760 Now, none of that means he did this.

01:50:30.220 You know, he's getting I'd get a lawyer, too, if I were him, whether I were guilty

01:50:34.200 or innocent at this point. 0.97

01:50:37.300 But again, I can't get over the sheer stupidity if he did this of just of putting some portion 1.00

01:50:43.640 of her remains in a bag. 1.00

01:50:45.900 Whose bag is it?

01:50:46.800 The cops will figure that out pretty quickly.

01:50:48.540 Will they not, Dave?

01:50:49.360 And then putting it in my own car and then thinking no one's going to link it back to

01:50:55.120 me.

01:50:56.000 I think well, I think that's his best defense.

01:50:58.000 It's so preposterous.

01:50:59.180 I mean, who would ever do this?

01:51:00.360 Your Your Honor, members of the jury. 0.96

01:51:02.400 This is too ridiculous. 0.99

01:51:03.960 He's not an idiot. 1.00

01:51:04.920 Well, that's going to be the the argument press. 1.00

01:51:07.020 But, you know, he did seem like an idiot in that video. 1.00

01:51:09.240 Yes, that's what I'm saying. 1.00

01:51:10.300 He has shown signs of being quite an idiot. 1.00

01:51:13.040 So that could come back to hurt him. 1.00

01:51:14.800 Also, also, he's been going out of his way to lie about his affiliation with the victim.

01:51:20.560 He is denied there was ever any romantic involvement, which, of course, he would because he's a lot

01:51:26.600 older and she's underage. 0.85

01:51:27.780 But there was a photo of the two of them together at an event in Los Angeles in October 2023.

01:51:32.940 And she would have been 13 at the time he was 17.

01:51:36.400 What is he doing with a 13 year old girl then?

01:51:38.660 And so when you add all this stuff up, it makes him look really bad.

01:51:41.580 So even if you don't have all the evidence to connect them to the murder, but just the

01:51:45.940 insinuation of hanging around with this 13 year old is going to make him look terrible in the eyes of

01:51:50.060 the jury to at least get him on the concealment charge.

01:51:53.540 Mm hmm.

01:51:54.120 The OK, David's friends are saying that they were romantically involved, according to Fox

01:52:01.440 11, that they believed that Celeste was a 19 year old student at USC.

01:52:08.480 Again, a reminder for the audience, she was found dead at age 15 and the relationship had

01:52:13.520 been going on, we believe, for a couple of years, having begun when she was 13 and he was

01:52:19.040 17, we believe, again, allegedly his friends say they frequently saw the two together and

01:52:25.140 believe they were romantically involved.

01:52:27.040 They told TMZ they were shocked she was underage because she was present at multiple

01:52:31.460 age restricted events.

01:52:33.500 Law enforcement sources previously confirmed to TMZ that Rivas Hernandez had multiple fake

01:52:39.100 IDs which could have given the teen access to such events.

01:52:42.580 I mean, and now what they're sniffing around here, Phil, is potential motive, right?

01:52:47.220 That, I mean, I don't know what the statutory rape law is out in California, but that kind 1.00

01:52:54.100 of an age difference, four years with an underage with a 13 year old could definitely is probably

01:52:58.720 illegal.

01:52:59.460 That's how the laws work in most states. 0.93

01:53:01.700 And, you know, you have one fight in which she says, I'm going to tell everybody this.

01:53:05.740 I'm just making this up.

01:53:06.580 This is speculation.

01:53:07.680 But that's a problem.

01:53:09.660 It's a problem to have somebody under 13 in a sexual relationship potentially.

01:53:13.800 So it is.

01:53:16.180 And yes, that, you know, that's the reason for the, you know, the pinky tattoo saying,

01:53:21.320 you know, don't, that's, that's what that signifies to me is that they've got something

01:53:25.640 going on and they want to want to keep it a secret.

01:53:27.980 So secret that they're putting tattoos all over themselves.

01:53:30.720 But anyway, it has been reported.

01:53:32.900 By the way, that's not a good idea.

01:53:34.220 If you're trying to keep a secret, you probably shouldn't have written on your finger and the

01:53:39.380 matching finger of the person with whom you don't want to be caught in a relationship.

01:53:43.180 Just pro tip.

01:53:44.760 Well, also, you don't want to be caught as TMZ reported, standing 0.3 miles from the home

01:53:51.880 where Celeste Rivas was living with her family before she disappeared in April of 2024.

01:53:58.060 And that's where he was standing, according to Google Maps, according to TMZ.

01:54:04.580 So you put all this together.

01:54:06.540 This is what I mean by circumstantial evidence.

01:54:08.880 You start putting it together.

01:54:10.360 And while one piece of it may not look like much, eventually, when you start putting these

01:54:14.700 bricks in place, you start to see a wall forming.

01:54:17.920 And eventually, that wall can get complete and it can get very tall.

01:54:22.020 And it might be something that's so tall that the defense won't be able to get over it in

01:54:27.220 terms of finding reasonable doubt in a case.

01:54:29.940 So the search for physical evidence is key.

01:54:32.720 It's going to be ongoing.

01:54:34.040 But I have a sneaking suspicion they're going to find some physical evidence if they haven't

01:54:38.680 done it already.

01:54:39.780 Plus, he's got a lot of stuff out there online that sleuths have been able to come up with.

01:54:45.040 And with the tools that law enforcement has, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a mountain

01:54:49.880 of digital information that they've got that's going to probably lead to some charges in the

01:54:54.800 not-too-distant future.

01:54:55.940 You tell me, Dave, as a prosecutor, if this guy really did, again, I assume he asserts

01:55:03.920 his innocence.

01:55:04.540 I assume he's denying having anything to do with this.

01:55:07.680 And they don't have him dead to rights based on what we're seeing here.

01:55:11.320 They really do need to tie some forensic evidence either in that car or in his home to him and

01:55:17.640 her having been together in some sort of a bloody confrontation.

01:55:20.200 Um, but, but you tell me whether they are likely to find that because if you really are 0.99

01:55:27.580 dumb enough to kill your lover and put her remains in your car and then abandon your car 1.00

01:55:33.420 on the streets of LA, you are absolutely dumb enough to think cleaning up blood in your home with 1.00

01:55:39.980 bleach will remove all trace of what you may have done, right? 0.99

01:55:44.880 This is hypothetical land right now, to be clear, but I wouldn't be shocked at all to 1.00

01:55:49.280 learn he really is straight out of the stupid criminal file. 1.00

01:55:52.900 Yeah. 1.00

01:55:53.440 And he'd be the type to think that if he erases his cell phone, then all the messages go away.

01:55:57.820 I got to believe that law enforcement is getting subpoenas for his cell phone records and that's

01:56:03.440 where his digital footprint could really hurt him.

01:56:05.600 And going back to what we were talking about before, since he was 17 at the time of that picture

01:56:10.380 with her when she was 13, that if they had a romantic relationship, then that could be a

01:56:15.900 felony under California law.

01:56:17.180 It is a crime because it's more than three years.

01:56:19.640 It's a four year difference, even though they're both underage.

01:56:23.020 And so he could be convicted of a felony just for that relationship.

01:56:26.520 So you can see that could be motive, even though she was not pregnant, that could be motive.

01:56:31.140 Perhaps she said something and she held that up over his head.

01:56:34.600 We don't know yet, but means motive opportunity points to one person so far.

01:56:38.820 We'll see if the evidence bears it out.

01:56:40.980 Yeah.

01:56:41.260 And then you look at that person's social media.

01:56:43.180 By the way, would that stuff come in, Dave?

01:56:44.800 Like if they did charge him, would any of those songs we just played or, you know, the

01:56:50.520 appearances together on online, would that come in?

01:56:54.260 It would.

01:56:55.080 You'd have to argue it to a judge that it'd be relevant, that it's not more prejudicial

01:57:00.060 than it is probative.

01:57:01.220 I would say it is relevant, especially because her name is mentioned in these songs.

01:57:05.100 So, yes, that's why some states are trying to make it irrelevant, inadmissible entirely.

01:57:11.080 But thankfully, that hasn't become a big force throughout the country yet.

01:57:15.580 Well, Fannie Willis tried that in Fulton County recently when she prosecuted Young Thug, the

01:57:20.680 rapper Young Thug.

01:57:21.640 She wanted to use music lyrics and, you know, the jury wasn't buying it.

01:57:25.240 But the music industry just is apoplectic about that because, look, today's point, I get why

01:57:32.420 prosecutors want to use it.

01:57:33.680 But you really have to tie that in concretely to your case.

01:57:38.100 You can't, it can't be abstract.

01:57:39.940 It's got to be very, very, I think, specific and focused on the facts of the case at hand

01:57:45.660 because it really does have to be more probative than prejudicial.

01:57:51.460 And that's a balancing test that courts have to go through.

01:57:53.720 So if you just have something in the abstract that doesn't necessarily, that can be interpreted

01:57:58.920 in multiple different ways, I think there's a good argument to be made that it could very

01:58:03.280 well be inadmissible because it's, you know, it's just not probative enough or it's too

01:58:08.340 prejudicial if you let it in.

01:58:09.640 I mean, I think you might be right.

01:58:10.480 Like, that song was from 2022, and that may have been before he met her.

01:58:15.460 Right now, we're only dating it based on what we've discussed to 2023, the all, I killed 0.97

01:58:20.420 you, I didn't regret it, I can't believe I said it, but I hate you.

01:58:23.020 But that's sort of a pattern of, you know, problematic issues.

01:58:27.820 All right.

01:58:28.300 Well, we'll wait to see what happens to David again, assuming David asserts his innocence

01:58:34.160 in this case.

01:58:34.940 Before we go, we're awaiting right now at 208 on Friday, the Diddy sentencing.

01:58:41.140 What's going to happen after lunch is three more lawyers will speak, a reverend, and then

01:58:46.220 Sean Diddy Combs himself is set to speak before the judge finally hands down his sentence.

01:58:51.100 Do you guys have any thoughts before we go on whether this judge is likely to throw the

01:58:55.740 book at him or what the sentencing is likely to be?

01:58:57.880 Dave, I'll start with you.

01:58:59.420 I think that Diddy will get more than the defense wants, which is no additional time, and less

01:59:04.620 than what the prosecution wants, which is 11 plus years.

01:59:08.120 I think he'll get somewhere around three to four years, which would be a lot more than

01:59:13.520 Diddy ever expected to spend behind bars.

01:59:16.220 Now, I've said that he might get three to five.

01:59:18.700 I'm actually wondering if it might not be closer to the seven, which is what the guidelines

01:59:22.380 call for.

01:59:23.760 He's not going to get the 11 that the government's asking for, but he's not going to get out on

01:59:27.720 time served.

01:59:28.360 And here's why.

01:59:28.920 This judge heard all of the evidence in this case.

01:59:33.080 He saw the video of Diddy beating the hell out of that poor woman in that hotel, and he

01:59:40.800 doesn't – the judge is not required to forget about it.

01:59:42.900 They have this video that they're playing today in the sentencing hearing.

01:59:47.020 It's one of these, you know, what you call mitigation videos.

01:59:52.160 Yeah, we watched one minute of it.

01:59:53.180 Yeah, you cherry pick bits and pieces of somebody's life to show how great they are, how kind they

01:59:58.000 are, how good of a husband and father they are.

01:59:59.960 But the judge is like, wait a minute, that's inconsistent with all the stuff that I heard

02:00:04.600 from the witness stand and in this courtroom for weeks and weeks and weeks.

02:00:08.060 So the judge is going to look at that.

02:00:09.680 And by the way, the defense even went so far in their brief to tell the judge that Cassie

02:00:14.960 and the others were not victims in the case.

02:00:17.420 Well, Cassie sees it a different way.

02:00:19.060 She says, I was a victim, and I'm afraid of the guy.

02:00:21.200 So the judge is going to remember all that, and he's going to give him a significant

02:00:24.740 prison sentence, I think maybe even north of five years now.

02:00:28.520 I'll tell you what I'm worried about, Dave.

02:00:30.000 I'm worried that the judge gives him a stiff sentence, which I want to see.

02:00:33.360 Like seven years, I'd be very happy with seven years.

02:00:35.660 And then it's so severe that Trump pardons him or commutes it.

02:00:41.240 You know, Trump has said he's going to see what the sentence is.

02:00:43.380 So I do think if it is too harsh, then he's likely to get a pardon.

02:00:46.680 So that is concerning.

02:00:48.020 I agree with what Phil said.

02:00:49.780 The judge is a human being, too.

02:00:51.560 He saw that video of Diddy manhandling Cassie.

02:00:55.200 And keep in mind that even though Diddy is now saying, give me a second chance, and I

02:00:58.540 want to be a better person, he denied everything from beginning to end in this case and in every

02:01:03.840 other matter that he's been involved in.

02:01:05.320 He's never taken responsibility except when the video came out of him physically assaulting

02:01:10.100 Cassie.

02:01:10.600 That's when he had to come up and say, I made a mistake.

02:01:13.460 Other than that, he hasn't taken responsibility for a thing.

02:01:16.320 Well, in his brief, in their brief, they said he has accepted responsibility.

02:01:20.240 In addition to saying Cassie's not a victim, which I thought was preposterous, they said

02:01:24.920 that he's accepted responsibility.

02:01:26.440 I'm like, when?

02:01:26.980 For what? 0.98

02:01:27.240 When has he accepted responsibility for a damn thing? 0.98

02:01:29.960 Exactly. 0.96

02:01:30.120 Well, now in his letter, he's saying, I've learned, I'm a changed man.

02:01:33.960 And now he's going to presumably say that same thing directly to the judge.

02:01:37.920 We'll see.

02:01:38.440 This judge doesn't seem like a dope and doesn't, you know, him allowing himself to consider

02:01:43.480 the acts of violence is definitely good for the prosecution, but we'll know soon enough.

02:01:48.320 Guys, thank you.

02:01:49.100 Have a great weekend.

02:01:50.360 Great to see you.

02:01:51.760 Happy to be here anytime.

02:01:52.980 Thank you.

02:01:53.240 See you in Miami.

02:01:54.120 Happy birthday, Phil.

02:01:55.600 Thank you, Megan.

02:01:56.400 Okay.

02:01:56.660 So I want to tell you before we go, I've mentioned it like a couple of times this week that I've

02:02:01.780 been working on this rebuttal to this absolute disgusting hit job the New York Times did on

02:02:07.360 Charlie Kirk this week.

02:02:08.420 I mean, it was truly shameful by Nicole Hannah-Jones.

02:02:12.360 And I really put some time into it because I want her side to watch this, not just side

02:02:20.020 of reason.

02:02:20.840 I want her side to see it and see exactly what she's done to him, how dishonest she is, and

02:02:25.740 what Charlie actually said in the clips that she's used to bastardize him.

02:02:30.200 I think you're going to find it very interesting.

02:02:31.700 It's under an hour, right about there, around an hour, and we're going to release it tomorrow

02:02:35.140 morning, a special episode.

02:02:36.380 I think you'll like it because there's very rarely new content in the podcast world on

02:02:41.180 Saturdays.

02:02:41.720 You can listen to it then or Sunday or whenever you want, but I think you'll find it helpful

02:02:45.740 in combating the lies being told about our friend, Charlie Kirk.

02:02:49.780 Thank you for watching, you guys, and we will see you on Monday.

02:02:52.400 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

02:02:56.860 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - October 03, 2025

Diddy Sentencing, Robinson Death Penalty Potential, and D4vd Trunk Mystery, with MK True Crime Contributors ｜ Ep. 1163

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