The Megyn Kelly Show - Dinesh D'Souza on Ballot Trafficking, ＂Election Integrity,＂ and His Movie, ＂2000 Mules＂

00:00:00.520 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.320 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, and I'm smiling to start this show,

00:00:16.640 not only because it's Friday, but because I just had a session with Stredwick's new dog trainer.

00:00:22.200 Praise Jesus, we're doing something about this dog. I'll get back to you on how it goes.

00:00:26.180 Um, I'm also smiling because I cannot tell you how many requests we have gotten

00:00:31.140 to hear from our guest today. My old pal Dinesh D'Souza is making people upset again. It's what

00:00:39.360 he does best, and he's always provocative, always thoughtful, uh, and we always have great

00:00:44.800 discussions. Uh, he used to come on all the time, not just on The Kelly File, but on America Live

00:00:48.800 before that and so on. Dinesh loves to cover controversial topics without fear. He doesn't

00:00:53.200 mind stoking people's, you know, sort of panty bunching. He also has a knack of creating

00:00:58.860 controversy for himself along the way. He's a bestselling author. He's a filmmaker and his

00:01:03.980 new documentary is called 2000 Mules. Now the film is airing in about 400 movie theaters across

00:01:10.440 the country. It's also available on Amazon where it is currently ranked numero uno in the movies and

00:01:17.420 TV category. How about that? It has been subjected to a lot of fact checks, uh, which we will take a

00:01:23.120 look at. Liberal media showing more interest in Dinesh's movie than say Hunter Biden's laptop

00:01:28.100 revelations in the 2020 election. So we'll get to all of it. Joining me now, Dinesh D'Souza,

00:01:38.460 director and writer of 2000 Mules and host of the Dinesh D'Souza podcast. Dinesh, so good to talk to

00:01:45.260 you again. Wow, Megan, it feels like a bit of a reunion. It's been too long and, uh, I'm thrilled to

00:01:51.960 be on, on your show. I'm looking forward to the conversation. Well, I love that you're still doing

00:01:54.860 the muckraking that makes everyone so upset. They can't stop you, Dinesh. I mean, it's like,

00:01:59.820 no matter what they do to you, you just keep on it. You keep on it. So good for you.

00:02:04.400 Well, thank you. I mean, this has been an interesting film, Megan, for the reason that

00:02:08.660 it's the first film I've released in an age of censorship. And so I had to sort of develop a

00:02:13.240 whole new strategy because the normal technique, which is, you know, put the film on Apple iTunes,

00:02:18.720 put it on Amazon Prime, um, is risky. You can't put a trailer on YouTube. You can't advertise on

00:02:25.360 Facebook. This is the most banned topic in the country. I mean, they ban other topics, COVID,

00:02:31.080 they ban, uh, discussions of the trans issue, uh, climate change, but no topic is more aggressively

00:02:36.860 censored than election fraud. That's 100% true. So I guess we should start there. How's that? How's

00:02:43.400 it going? Has it been, have you been managing those portals? Okay. Yeah, it's been going fantastic.

00:02:49.000 We did all kinds of kind of crazy stuff because we opened the movie May 2nd and 4th in 300 theaters,

00:02:55.640 but we rented out the theater. It's kind of like, we almost bought out the theater. Then we sold

00:02:59.620 tickets and we filled the theaters. So the reason we're going back into the theater this weekend,

00:03:05.540 400 theaters is the theaters came to us. They're like, man, you were filling up the theaters at a time

00:03:09.580 when we're like desperate for business. This is a movie that we're getting calls about.

00:03:13.960 So we're now opening this weekend, you know, normal four showings a day, um, theaters around

00:03:19.020 the country. Um, and, but what's odd about it is normally, as you know, we typically release a movie

00:03:24.800 theatrically first, then there's a window of time. Then it comes out in DVD and digital download,

00:03:30.160 but now it's already been out in streaming. It's out in download. People can already buy DVDs and it's

00:03:35.540 going back in the theater. Wow. It's like, okay, tonight is the release. They've been advertising

00:03:40.580 on the show, the Downton Abbey, uh, next edition, and, uh, they can do a double header. They can see

00:03:46.720 2000 mules. And then if you still have some energy, you can, you can do some escapism with Downton and

00:03:51.440 call it a night, a date night. Um, all right, so let's talk about it, Dinesh, because I let's start

00:03:56.740 with this. How did this whole thing get started? Cause you know, you're always looking for interesting

00:04:00.420 projects to take on. This has been one of the biggest stories in the country for the past couple of

00:04:04.380 years. So how did this particular project get started? Well, to be honest, I was a great skeptic

00:04:10.740 about the project in the first place. And what I mean by that is that there's been a, I would say a

00:04:17.040 very disappointing level of discussion on this topic, going all the way back to the election.

00:04:22.820 And in some ways you had dogmatic unsupported assertions on both sides. So let's start with the

00:04:29.560 left. This is the most secure election in history. And this mantra began almost like the day after the

00:04:36.080 election. And I was thinking to myself, well, how would you know that? How could you make such a

00:04:41.080 statement? And then when I would ask people, they'd be like, well, where's your proof of fraud? And I

00:04:45.160 would say, well, let's say I have no proof. Does it follow that it's the most secure election in

00:04:50.300 history? Have you done a comparison of the amount of fraud in 2020 compared to 2016, 2012, 2008,

00:04:56.600 2004? Unless you can show me that there was a smaller portion of fraud this time than all those

00:05:02.960 other times, how can you make such an unsubstantiated assertion? And yet that assertion has been protected

00:05:09.940 by a wall of censorship, by allegations that anyone who disputes it or raises questions about it

00:05:16.280 is promulgating a big lie. So all of this kind of annoyed me and irritated me, but I didn't know what

00:05:22.760 to do about it. And then on the other side, you have people who said, I know it was stolen.

00:05:28.120 And I would be like, well, how do you know? And they would point to anomalies over here or

00:05:34.040 episodic fraud over there. But, you know, as you know, Megan, an anomaly is something strange,

00:05:39.440 but that doesn't mean it doesn't have an explanation. And moreover, episodic fraud,

00:05:44.220 you might be like, well, yeah, my dead guy voted over here. This guy who moved out of state

00:05:48.280 shouldn't have voted over there. But it's not significant enough to tip the balance,

00:05:53.000 even in a relatively close election. So for many, many months, I said not one word about the subject.

00:05:59.180 And it wasn't until I sat down with the two principals at this group, election intelligence

00:06:04.040 group, it's called True the Vote, began to review their methodology, their evidence that I just

00:06:09.860 realized, you know, I'm looking at something of a completely different caliber than anything I've

00:06:15.120 seen before. Right. This is not something this is not one of the through lines that had been

00:06:19.060 getting pursued. And I know Catherine Engelbrecht took the vote since 2010. I had her on my show

00:06:24.820 back then when she was getting picked on by the IRS when they were going after conservatives or groups

00:06:29.300 that that nonprofit groups that they thought lean conservative only under Barack Obama. So she she

00:06:35.760 came to form this group, not because of anything in the wake of Trump. I mean, she Trump wasn't even

00:06:40.720 running for office back then. This was, you know, born of the heart to try to push back on on government

00:06:47.420 overreach in certain areas. OK, so so she decides to take a look at this election and what she can get

00:06:53.980 her hand her her hands on, you know, not not the crack in, not all that nonsense, but actual data that

00:07:00.880 might be verifiable to see what patterns we might find. And first, let me just ask you to explain.

00:07:07.220 And it looks like to me, she looked at you guys looked at the movie, Arizona, Georgia, Michigan,

00:07:11.280 Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, those five states. Is that right? Yes, exactly. Those are the five states.

00:07:16.080 And it's not even the full states. It is essentially the sort of democratic controlled

00:07:21.200 urban areas in those five states. OK. And why those? Well, when any research project,

00:07:28.900 you have to develop some sort of a hypothesis. Right. And I think the genius of true,

00:07:34.280 the vote was what they said was they they were taking a technology that's very familiar and very

00:07:40.560 reliable and used all the time in all kinds of other areas, from law enforcement to the Defense

00:07:46.480 Department to the CDC. And this is cell phone geo tracking. Now, the way that this came about was

00:07:52.720 they had a hotline, an election hotline and a whistleblower came forward in Georgia and began to

00:07:57.860 describe amazingly this kind of mule driven ballot stuffing operation. And true, the vote was like,

00:08:05.040 man, you're an enterprising character. Are you the only guy doing this? And he's like, oh, no,

00:08:09.500 I'm part of a larger group. We all do it. And so true, the vote then decided that because this guy

00:08:15.300 was running scared, he was not willing to give his name. He wanted to go into hiding. They're like,

00:08:19.420 look, we can't just rely on an anonymous informant. We need to develop some mechanism for

00:08:24.780 testing the hypothesis that there is an organized system of deploying these paid political operatives

00:08:31.440 called mules to deliver illegal and fraudulent votes to mail and drop boxes. And so the geo tracking

00:08:38.020 then became a way of trying to measure and test and validate whether it was the case that in Georgia

00:08:44.360 and then later expanded to Arizona and Michigan and so on. Was there, in fact, this kind of organized

00:08:50.320 campaign to essentially rig the election for Joe Biden? Mm hmm. OK, we'll get back to whether they

00:08:55.960 were illegal and fraudulent votes. This is one of the areas in which people take issue with the

00:09:00.200 documentary. But we'll one thing one thing at a time. So first of all, what's what's ballot harvesting?

00:09:04.980 Explain that. So I'll I will. And I also want to in doing so draw a distinction. So ballot harvesting

00:09:12.860 or vote harvesting is simply the idea that you can give your ballot to someone else. We're talking here,

00:09:19.640 by the way, about an absentee or mail in ballot. You can give it to someone else to go and drop it

00:09:26.120 off at a post box or a mail in drop box. Now, ballot harvesting is allowed to certain degrees in about

00:09:34.560 26 states. But most of those states impose pretty strict limits on ballot harvesting. So there's a

00:09:41.120 little bit of a spectrum. California probably has the most liberal ballot harvesting law in the country.

00:09:46.160 It basically says you can give your vote to anyone and ask them to take it and drop it off. In fact,

00:09:52.640 you can go down the street and start collecting the votes of people down the street, put them in the

00:09:57.240 back of your car, take them down to the drop box. And that's all legal. So California, in other words,

00:10:03.320 allows pretty much all kinds of ballot harvesting. Now, the five states that we're talking about don't do

00:10:09.920 that. Very typical is both Georgia and Arizona, which say the same thing. You can give your vote,

00:10:16.480 your ballot to an immediate family member. Or if you are in a in a facility or in a nursing home,

00:10:22.940 for example, you can give it to a caregiver for them to drop off, but not to anyone else. So this is the

00:10:30.020 kind. And then there are some states that prohibit harvesting altogether. You have to take your own ballot and

00:10:34.920 drop it off. Nobody else can do it for you. So this is the range of the laws. But the point I want to

00:10:40.640 make is that ballot harvesting is not the same as paid trafficking. So paid trafficking is when you

00:10:47.720 involve money. Even in California, if I say to my neighbor, hey, you know, Bill, you take my ballot,

00:10:53.420 you go drop it off, that's allowed. But if I say to my neighbor, hey, Bill, here's $50 to go take my

00:10:58.400 ballot and drop it off. That's not allowed because the moment that money enters the process, issues a

00:11:03.500 bribery. Essentially, you can't you cannot contaminate the voting process by introducing

00:11:09.140 payment. And so in no state is paid ballot trafficking legal. OK, so the name of the movie

00:11:16.940 is 2000 Mules. You referenced the term in our conversation already. What is a mule for purposes

00:11:24.060 of this film? Right. So a mule, this is you can see the term is lifted. Catherine Engelbrecht kind of

00:11:31.020 just lifted it from drug trafficking or from sex trafficking. The mule is the delivery guy.

00:11:37.420 Right. So in this particular context, we're talking about ballot trafficking. A mule is a paid

00:11:42.880 operative who has been hired by someone. In this case, it'll turn out to be far left wing organizations

00:11:48.880 deeply embedded in the inner city. But someone hires this mule, this paid operative to to pick up and drop

00:11:56.120 off illegal and fraudulent votes into a ballot drop box. I'm happy to discuss why those are illegal

00:12:03.980 and fraudulent. But let's just say that the mule is the guy. He doesn't come up with his own votes.

00:12:09.000 He stops by at a kind of vote stash house, as we call it. He gets the backpack or the satchel full of

00:12:15.840 votes. And then he proceeds or she proceeds on a kind of almost mailman's route going from one drop box to

00:12:22.640 another, depositing typically relatively small number of votes in each drop box, but a large number of

00:12:28.800 votes in the aggregate. So they're not dumb. They're not going to take, hey, I got 200 votes from the

00:12:34.540 nonprofit center that's been designed to promote, quote, election integrity. And I'm going to dump

00:12:40.220 them all in one one drop box, you know, that for for that accepts votes. They know that that would look

00:12:45.180 suspicious. It would be flagged. And they have to be more clever about it.

00:12:49.060 Megan, this is why I love talking to you, because exactly if a mule were to go empty 300 votes in a

00:12:54.920 drop box, the typical number of votes in all the adjoining drop boxes is going to be, you know,

00:12:59.840 40 or 50 votes. And suddenly you see this big spike of votes. The election official that's

00:13:04.460 filling out those custody documents would immediately know something was wrong. And so

00:13:09.440 the mules are sort of instructed, don't do that. Typically, they drop three, five, eight or 10 ballots at

00:13:15.200 a time. And this is really why they go to multiple drop boxes. And this is why actually it became

00:13:20.460 relatively easy to track them, because the geo tracking monitors the movement, not of you,

00:13:26.460 but of your cell phone going from one drop box to the other, to the other, to the other.

00:13:31.440 Now, you talk about geo tracking. There was a story just recently for people who may not have heard

00:13:35.620 about this prior to 2000 mules, where we found out the CDC had bought that same data to see whether

00:13:42.000 people were obeying some of the quarantine impositions, some of the curfews that had been

00:13:47.260 imposed. And by just getting access to cell phone data, they can find out, yes, this is people

00:13:54.620 listened or they didn't listen. They went inside or they didn't go inside. And this is what they did

00:13:58.260 instead. So all sorts of things can be gleaned about individuals. How specific can it get? Like,

00:14:04.960 you know, because before we get to your movie, I started thinking then, like, would they be able to know

00:14:09.260 Megan Kelly did not obey the curfew? Or is it not quite that specific?

00:14:14.960 Well, let's go slowly here, because the you mentioned the CDC. So the CDC is using this data

00:14:22.120 to try to monitor if people are social distancing. Everybody knows that social distancing means

00:14:26.940 staying six feet apart. Now, this data would be useless to the CDC if geo tracking was not accurate

00:14:34.300 to within six feet. What what good would it be if it's accurate to say 30 feet? You couldn't tell

00:14:38.980 if somebody was social distancing or not. So the geo tracking has become more and more accurate.

00:14:45.680 It's true. If you go back 10 years or you go back 15 years, just like with GPS, the GPS was not as

00:14:52.280 accurate then as as it is now. Now, inside of our cell phones are innumerable apps. And as it turns out,

00:14:59.940 when you download those apps or you click on those apps, you are unwittingly perhaps giving permission to

00:15:05.260 the people in those apps to get your data. And this is a massive industry. This data is aggregated

00:15:12.080 by so-called aggregators. There are about 40 major aggregators. And unbelievably, perhaps it's sold on

00:15:18.640 the open market, which is not to say that you and I can buy it at Walmart, but we can get this data if

00:15:23.740 you pay for it. And the data can go back in time. So, for example, you take through the vote. They went

00:15:29.560 to the larger urban Atlanta, which encompasses four counties. They went to Maricopa County, Phoenix area,

00:15:37.820 Detroit, Milwaukee, the greater Philadelphia area. And they said, we want the data from October 1,

00:15:44.120 the beginning of the runoffs, till Election Day. And then in Georgia, because there was a Senate runoff,

00:15:49.000 we also want the data going all the way through January 5th, which was the date of the runoff

00:15:53.620 election. And you can buy that data. Define that a little bit tighter, though, because it wasn't

00:15:57.980 like for all of Maricopa County. It was more targeted than that. Right. It was not all of Maricopa County.

00:16:03.540 It was the greater Phoenix area. And by and large, to be honest, true, the vote was also limited by

00:16:08.260 resources. They got a $2 million grant. So they had to decide if we're going to test this hypothesis,

00:16:14.540 we need to be clever and we need to sort of pick our areas. And so what they reasoned was they

00:16:20.440 essentially said, look, the rules of this election have changed under the pretext of COVID. Lots of

00:16:27.180 mail-in drop boxes and lots of mail-out ballots. And so we're going to sort of make a guess,

00:16:33.080 make a hypothesis that if there's going to be cheating, it's going to be there. It's going to be

00:16:38.960 not machine cheating, not the Chinese. It's going to be cheating where it is easier to cheat. It's

00:16:45.200 almost like if the bank creates a new facility, which doesn't have proper surveillance, doesn't

00:16:49.880 have proper security, and the tellers are instructed, don't be too fastidious to match

00:16:54.280 the signatures. Well, where do you think the bank robbers are going to go? They're going to go to

00:16:58.320 that facility because it's more vulnerable to being taken advantage of. And this geotracking is used in

00:17:05.360 intelligence services. It's used by law enforcement. You know, if there's a murder in a park, Megan,

00:17:11.340 and there is no physical evidence and there are no eyewitnesses, there's just a body,

00:17:16.340 one of the things that law enforcement will do is they will do a geofence, which is nothing more than

00:17:20.400 drawing a circle around that area. And they will look for cell phone devices in that area. And let's

00:17:25.880 say there are five of them. Well, you get a warrant. You go to the providers who then give you the

00:17:31.860 identity of those people. You go interview them. It's not to say one of them did it,

00:17:35.860 but they become your five suspects. That's amazing. I did not realize that it was at that

00:17:40.100 point yet. So the warrant part is important, lest people start freaking out that everything about

00:17:45.800 them is trackable and identifiable just without any sort of law enforcement or due process bar.

00:17:50.680 But so that's true. So the cops, if they see that you're that a cell phone was in the connection

00:17:56.120 was in the area of a murder, let's say they can get a warrant and on, on, you know, what's the

00:18:02.920 word I'm looking for? Unmasked. Thank you. The identity of the person who is holding that phone.

00:18:07.980 Exactly. Exactly. We discussed a case in the movie, which is there was a shooting in the Atlanta area

00:18:14.840 right about the time that that True the Vote was buying this data. It was a young black girl,

00:18:21.360 Sequoia Turner, eight years old. She was shot in a car while during a kind of a BLM riot.

00:18:28.640 And what True the Vote did, this was actually to help law enforcement, is they sort of drew a

00:18:33.620 geo-ference. They looked at the data. They identified, they looked at the angle of the shot

00:18:38.580 and they said, look, based upon the date and the time and the angle of the shot,

00:18:43.400 there are only three or four cell phone IDs within a sort of circumference. These are the

00:18:49.020 legitimate shooters. One of these guys, not for sure, but probably did it. And so we're going to

00:18:53.800 give you that data and you do what you will with it. And so this was turned over to the FBI,

00:18:58.740 the Sequoia Turner case, which by the way, went unsolved for a long time. And then pretty recently,

00:19:04.040 there were two arrests. Of course, they still have to make the case in court, but they, but after

00:19:08.860 asking for the public to help and eyewitness to come forward and no one came forward, this geo-tracking

00:19:14.420 data is helpful in this kind of investigation. And the reason we pointed this out in the movie

00:19:19.840 is we simply wanted to show that it's exactly the same technology used in exactly the same way

00:19:25.680 to track these so-called mules.

00:19:28.980 All right. Now that I have a question for you about that, because there was an update on that case.

00:19:32.840 And I watched, of course, the documentary and thought it was riveting. And here's the piece

00:19:37.500 where you talk about that Sequoia Turner. This was, by the way, Dinesh, was this the little girl,

00:19:42.660 the eight-year-old girl, killed outside of a Wendy's that led to, there was a bunch of unrest

00:19:49.100 there. Wasn't that the Wendy's that a man had an altercation with the police out of right after

00:19:55.740 that happened?

00:19:57.180 Exactly. This was a racial group was the name of the guy.

00:20:00.700 Yeah. There you go. And because there was that altercation, that's why the riot sort of took place

00:20:06.980 there. And evidently, this family had no idea they were just going to the Wendy's. They suddenly

00:20:12.320 realized they were in danger. They tried to back the truck up and then boom, this poor little girl

00:20:18.320 got shot. So that was the background of when that happened. And so the only reason we put that in

00:20:27.560 the movie, again, not because it's related to ballot fraud, of course, but simply because we're

00:20:32.680 trying to show the reliability and the helpfulness of geo-tracking.

00:20:36.540 Yeah, that is being used in many different ways. And that's, you're, you're right that it's being

00:20:40.400 used in so many different ways, including by the government. And as I mentioned, the CDC report,

00:20:43.820 and there's, that's undeniable. So here's a segment from the movie, 2000 Mules on this particular

00:20:49.640 situation outside the Wendy's and the murder of this eight-year-old girl.

00:20:52.640 The shooting actually occurred right here in, in this parking lot, sort of inside of this circle

00:21:01.700 are really the only potentially legitimate shooters. Uh, each of these devices has a unique device ID.

00:21:09.860 And we turned the bulk of this information over to the federal Bureau of Investigation.

00:21:15.520 Now I read they've arrested two suspects.

00:21:18.660 They have.

00:21:20.060 Okay. But the follow-up is that NPR, everyone's been taking apart every section of the movie,

00:21:25.000 you know, that Dinesh NPR reported that, um, that, uh, a GBI spokesperson, Georgia Bureau of

00:21:32.720 Investigation has told them the GBI did not receive info from true, the vote that connected that was

00:21:39.680 connected to the Sequoia Turner investigation. And then NPR says that they spoke with Catherine,

00:21:45.520 Engelbrecht of true, the vote. And that, um, she said, we gave the FBI the data on 10, 25, 21,

00:21:52.820 October 25th, but the two suspects were indicted two months earlier. One was arrested two weeks

00:21:57.600 after the murder. When he turned himself in, the other was arrested in early August, 2021 by state

00:22:02.820 officials, not the FBI. And then NPR says Engelbrecht would not name her FBI contact to NPR.

00:22:09.040 The FBI declined to comment, but their point is that the two suspects were indicted long before

00:22:14.640 anybody or true, the vote ever brought them anything. If, if in fact, anything was brought

00:22:19.860 in at all. Right. So let's address these two points. I mean, as you saw from the clip that you played

00:22:25.760 true, the vote turned in its information, not to the GBI, but to the FBI right now, the GBI is the

00:22:32.360 Georgia Bureau of Investigation. It is linked to the FBI, but it's also its own organization has its own

00:22:38.300 offices, its own building. And so a GBI denial, we didn't get the information from true, the vote

00:22:44.720 through the vote didn't give you that information. So that's no surprise. Now let's follow this case

00:22:50.360 a little bit slowly, because what happened was when there was the shooting, apparently there was an

00:22:56.020 eyewitness who went to the government and said, I saw this suspicious character leave the scene and,

00:23:03.320 and he could be the shooter and they arrested this guy. But this guy basically said, look, I got nothing

00:23:08.300 to do with it. I saw the shooting, but it wasn't me. And so even though they arrested him, they had

00:23:13.560 nothing on him. They had no evidence, merely the identification of him by a, an eyewitness. And so

00:23:20.360 the investigation basically stalled. Also in an investigation, you obviously pursue multiple

00:23:27.300 lines. So you're trying to find out who is this guy? Is he in a gang? Does he have any friends?

00:23:31.560 And so you're pursuing all that. Um, and so what we say in the movie is this true, the vote did this

00:23:39.300 research turned in this information to the FBI. No one is saying that this is the information that

00:23:46.100 quote proves the murder. What, what NPR does is they set up a straw man. That is that the movie claims

00:23:52.580 to solve a murder. Well, how can you solve a murder when all you're identifying is a handful of

00:23:57.900 cell phone devices that could have been the shooter. You don't even have the names of those

00:24:03.260 people. True. The vote has their distinctive cell phone IDs and turn them in. Now, just because the

00:24:08.620 suspects have been arrested doesn't mean that you have a full and adequate case against them. As you

00:24:13.680 know, Megan, as a lawyer, the reason there's a gap between the time someone is arrested and goes to

00:24:18.280 trial, there's ongoing investigation to try to nail down your case. And your case is going to have many

00:24:23.860 elements of which the geo tracking is only one. A case in point is look at the January 6th cases.

00:24:30.040 You find out that the FBI, although they arrested people based on Facebook posts and so on,

00:24:35.200 later they do cell phone geo tracking. And then when they go to court, they go, look, your honor,

00:24:40.060 the geo tracking shows that this guy wasn't outside the building. He was inside the building. So the

00:24:45.760 geo tracking comes in at the time of trial, not just not time of indictment, but at the time of trial

00:24:51.720 to sort of lock up a case and provide the full picture. So, you know, the NPR article is

00:24:56.540 interesting, but it doesn't refute anything we said in the movie. We did not claim that we solved

00:25:00.580 the murder. They're basically suggesting you, you misled that you led the audience to believe

00:25:06.000 you helped solve a murder when in fact, it had already been solved before anybody contacted any

00:25:10.660 authorities. Well, and I think what I would say is that this is not a matter of quote,

00:25:15.980 solving a murder. It is a matter of getting the right guys and then being able to prove that they did it.

00:25:20.920 And what's to say, we'll have to wait and see in these trials if they use geo tracking to help

00:25:25.620 establish that not only was this guy or these two guys there, but they were at the exact point

00:25:30.920 in which their shots, if you will, would have come at the right angle to kill Sequoia Turner.

00:25:36.920 Can I ask you something, Dinesh? Because I feel like normally if you have a suspect in custody,

00:25:40.740 you were all familiar with the fact that they will figure out where you were based on where your

00:25:48.620 cell phone was. I mean, we know that. Like if they suspect somebody of committing a crime and

00:25:52.000 the person says, it wasn't me, I was asleep at home in bed, they can track your phone and figure

00:25:56.080 out where you were. So we've all experienced that before. But wouldn't they have already been doing

00:26:00.420 that with respect to whatever suspects they had in custody? You know, in this case, why would they

00:26:04.560 need your geo tracking data that just had the collection of people who were there?

00:26:08.700 Well, apparently, remarkably, they don't always do this. And interestingly, when True the Vote came

00:26:16.300 to me, they presented to me two murders. This was one. Another one was the Katie Janis murder,

00:26:23.360 which you can look up a very notorious murder in which a young woman was in Piedmont Park with her

00:26:28.880 dog, was brutally murdered in the park. No suspects, no physical evidence at all. And so what does True the

00:26:37.880 Vote do? They build a geofence. They look for cell phone devices. They found, not only do they find

00:26:44.080 cell phone devices, but they found one cell phone device that was previously identified outside the

00:26:50.260 victim's apartment. So maybe somebody who was like doing some surveillance on the victim. The other was

00:26:56.720 an out-of-state device. Again, what does True the Vote do? They go, listen, you know, we're not law

00:27:00.720 enforcement. We're trying to help. We're just going to turn this information and see where it goes. Now,

00:27:05.100 in that case, there haven't been any arrests made. Again, you know, this is a case where law

00:27:10.380 enforcement does its thing. In this case, True the Vote was just trying to validate its technology.

00:27:15.240 And to be honest, they were also trying to build better relationships with law enforcement

00:27:19.760 authorities to see if law enforcement authorities would look at their geo-tracking data on election

00:27:24.580 fraud. Mm-hmm. Okay. So you've got Catherine and she's got an associate named Greg Phillips,

00:27:30.920 who features prominently in the documentary, and he's kind of in charge of the geo-tracking.

00:27:35.560 And try to explain, because it's a little, it's kind of hard to get your head around,

00:27:39.120 how they use the geo-tracking to figure out who are the mules.

00:27:45.360 Yes. So let's think about what geo-tracking is. If somebody were to geo-track my phone

00:27:50.240 today, they would have me, I wake up in my house, let's say I go to get a cup of coffee,

00:27:55.900 and then I go to the studio to record my podcast, I have lunch with someone, I then come home. All of

00:28:02.000 this is then, can be plotted on a kind of a graph. Because geo-tracking is not a snapshot in a

00:28:08.280 particular moment in time, it shows movement. And so as a result, what the term of use is pattern of

00:28:16.560 life. They try to build a pattern of life, not just where your phone is now, where was it? Where is it

00:28:22.220 going to be later in the day, and perhaps in the days and weeks ahead? Now, what does True the Vote

00:28:28.500 do? They identify these mail-in drop boxes, not post boxes, because this is not where you write

00:28:35.400 letters or mail your bills. These are mail-in drop boxes for the sole purpose of depositing ballots.

00:28:42.180 That's all that they're for. And they set a high bar. We're looking for people, any cell phone device,

00:28:48.520 that for whatever reason is going to 10 or more drop boxes in a two-week period. Now, you have to

00:28:56.440 realize that there is no rational reason to do this. The beauty of setting the high bar is you

00:29:02.960 eliminate all kinds of nonsensical kind of false positives. Because if you set the bar in, you know,

00:29:09.380 no one has a reason to go to two drop boxes. But if you set the bar at two, some guy's going to come

00:29:15.000 forward and say, well, look, I put my ballot in the first box. And then while I was walking by the

00:29:20.040 second box, I really had to stop and make a phone call or tie my shoelace. And so you're calling me

00:29:25.180 a mule. I'm not a mule. So True the Vote decided, forget all this nonsense. Let's set a very high bar,

00:29:30.940 because if you're dropping off, let's say, your family members' votes, which you're allowed to do in

00:29:35.620 Georgia, no one is going to go to 10 drop boxes to do that or more. And we have mules going to 20,

00:29:42.000 40, 50, and 100 drop boxes. But by setting the high bar at 10, you're not going to catch all the

00:29:48.240 mules. You're only going to catch the most egregious, the most industrious mules. And even

00:29:54.140 based upon that sort of search algorithm, we identified 2,000 mules in these five critical

00:30:00.740 battleground states. And that's a large number of mules. The actual number, of course, is much

00:30:06.000 higher. All right. Now, just to clarify what you said, going to 10 or more drop boxes over how long

00:30:12.700 a period of time? In a two-week period. And the actual criteria was even a little more complex than

00:30:19.380 that. You not only had to go to the drop boxes, you had to stop by one of these left-wing

00:30:25.240 non-profits or NGOs. Some of these are so-called 501c3 organizations. The point being that the mules

00:30:32.920 don't come up with the ballots. It's not their ballots. They go someplace and get the ballots,

00:30:37.860 and then they go on the drop box route. So True the Vote said, we not only need the drop boxes,

00:30:43.980 we need someone to be stopping periodically five or more times at one of these organizations.

00:30:48.580 Yeah, you need the point of origin where they get the ballots to begin with.

00:30:51.660 All right. So how do they figure that out? When they see all the cell phones moving around and

00:30:56.720 they see you taking your normal route, how do they figure out who's a mule and who's a mom who's just

00:31:02.020 driving by that same spot 10 times in two weeks and not up to anything nefarious? That's where we're

00:31:08.460 going to pick it up right after this quick break. More with Dinesh D'Souza, the one and only.

00:31:13.120 Okay, so Dinesh, important question. People may be wondering, where do they get the ballots? Because

00:31:24.440 if I'm a mule, I've got to get ballots. And you say you go to these sort of non-profit centers and

00:31:30.300 then you go dump them in the, what are we calling them?

00:31:33.460 Mailboxes, the mail and drop boxes.

00:31:34.960 Drop boxes, drop boxes. Okay, so not mailboxes, but drop boxes. Okay, so I've got a mission.

00:31:38.400 I got to go to this non-profit center. I got to get the ballots and I got to go dump them in the

00:31:42.300 drop box. But somebody else is responsible for getting the votes to begin with and getting them

00:31:48.960 to the non-profit center. So how does that process happen? And what, where do these ballots come from?

00:31:55.480 So the way to think about this is there is no plausible legal way to get your hands on hundreds

00:32:04.640 of thousands of legal ballots. In other words, it is theoretically possible that a non-profit will

00:32:11.980 hire a mule, although I can't think of why you would do that, to go drop off a completely legal

00:32:17.800 ballot. The reason that that's very odd is because you're actually endangering that ballot by paying

00:32:24.080 a mule to deliver it because a legal ballot delivered illegally by a mule becomes a questionable

00:32:30.440 ballot. It's up to a judge to say if that ballot should be counted. When a process is contaminated,

00:32:35.960 there's a big question mark around that vote. Let me do a little detour slightly to explain why

00:32:42.580 this is so, because it's kind of, it gets to the logic of election integrity. Let's put aside for

00:32:47.900 a moment the issue of mail-in ballots altogether and say that Dinesh is going in to vote normally in

00:32:53.860 person. And I show up and I show my ID and I go behind the curtain and I have a ballot and let's say

00:32:59.920 it's a paper ballot. And then I pop my head out and say, guys, listen, I urgently have to leave the

00:33:05.260 facility. I got to go home and run some errands. I'll come back in an hour or two and I will drop

00:33:10.620 off this ballot. Would they let me do that? No. Why? Because once the ballot leaves the facility,

00:33:16.080 who knows what's going to happen? Who knows if I'm going to have someone else fill it out,

00:33:19.700 if someone's going to pay me for it. So suddenly that ballot, which is legal, I'm a legal voter.

00:33:24.260 It's a legitimate ballot. It's not a fake ballot. But nevertheless, the fact that I have sort of

00:33:28.820 taken it out of the place where it is being observed makes that a questionable ballot. That's why

00:33:34.400 they won't let me do that. Now, coming back to these nonprofit centers, in order for these to

00:33:40.020 be legal ballots, we have to imagine this scenario. Hundreds of thousands of people in the swing states

00:33:45.420 and evidently nowhere else decide, I've got a legal ballot, but I'm too busy or too lazy to go to a

00:33:51.420 mail-in drop box or the post office or all kinds of places that I can drop off the ballots, City Hall.

00:33:56.800 I'm not going to do any of that. I'm going to go find a left-wing organization deeply embedded in the

00:34:02.080 inner city and give them my ballot so that they can figure out, hiring mules or whatever,

00:34:07.920 some mechanism to drop off those ballots. Once you begin to see how ridiculous that is,

00:34:13.300 you realize that the ballots couldn't really have come that way. It's conceivable that some of them

00:34:18.140 could be obtained that way. Maybe, for example, one of these nonprofits said, listen, we want to help

00:34:24.420 Biden. There's a big housing project. We're going to go door to door and collect everybody's ballot

00:34:30.200 and they're going to give it to us and we'll deliver it. So there's a possibility that some

00:34:35.100 of those are legal ballots, but the majority of them most likely are illegal ballots, illegally

00:34:41.700 delivered.

00:34:42.640 Hans von Spakowski, who we've been relying on for years for information on election fraud and so on,

00:34:51.120 voting issues. He's a talented lawyer and he's quoted in the piece as saying, where do they come

00:34:58.040 from? Basically, you can get a situation where somebody says, let me help you, madam, fill out

00:35:04.200 a request for an absentee ballot. Here I am, Miss Grandmother. I'm going to help you fill out a

00:35:09.540 request for an absentee ballot. But then instead of having the ballot mailed to grandma, they have

00:35:14.020 the ballot sent to them and they then fill it in for grandma going to voters and obtaining the ballots

00:35:20.040 directly from them, which, again, isn't necessarily illegal unless there's unless you're getting paid to

00:35:24.500 do it as stealing them out of mailboxes, he says, using high quality photocopiers to make their own

00:35:31.000 ballots. Now, none of this was shown in or proven in 2000 mules, but it did. It was one of my

00:35:36.840 questions like, where are they getting the ballots from? Where are all these ballots coming from? And

00:35:40.400 the answer is, we don't really know. We don't really know. These are hypotheses as to where they

00:35:44.960 got them. And you're sort of calling BS on the notion that how could they all have been

00:35:49.780 legitimately originated. That just doesn't make sense. Well, we have to look at the other kind of

00:35:56.100 surrounding context. So, for example, if you look at what Judge Gableman found in Wisconsin, he found

00:36:02.440 preposterously high levels of voting, even at nursing homes where the inhabitants are virtually

00:36:10.080 comatose. We showed a couple of those videos in the movie. You have people who don't even know their

00:36:14.620 names. They don't know where they are, but they voted in the 2020 election. Well, how is that

00:36:18.840 possible? Well, somebody asked for a ballot on their behalf, maybe trace their signature,

00:36:23.720 maybe even got them to sign, but somebody else voted their vote. And that's how I'm we're talking.

00:36:29.380 And we're not talking about 10 people. There are 90,000 people in these nursing homes alone.

00:36:34.880 That's 90,000 votes or close to 90,000 votes in a state decided by 20,000 votes.

00:36:40.840 Right. OK, so that's the answer is we don't know exactly where they got the ballots, but we would

00:36:45.940 like to know. It would be nice if somebody would investigate, given what you guys have found on

00:36:49.540 tape. Now, the next question is, how do you figure out the question I asked before the break?

00:36:54.400 You know, I take my daughter to soccer once a week at this other location from her normal field.

00:37:00.060 And so if you were to look at the pattern of my phone, you would see that not every day.

00:37:05.180 Now, it wouldn't be an everyday thing that you could easily rule out by saying, oh,

00:37:07.600 she's going to work or she's going to the grocery store. But just this one time a week,

00:37:11.140 I go and I drop her at the soccer field and maybe I drive right by that nonprofit and maybe

00:37:16.920 I then drive right by the Dropbox. So what would stop the True the Vote team from calling me a mule?

00:37:24.900 Because I go by the two spots. It's kind of irregular. And I would definitely meet the threshold of

00:37:30.360 10 or more times within two weeks.

00:37:33.900 Yeah. So first of all, we're not talking about a mule going 10 times to the same Dropbox.

00:37:40.520 And number two, there is a clear and obvious difference between going past a Dropbox and

00:37:46.180 going to a Dropbox. And you can easily see the difference.

00:37:50.160 You can't just think of that's important.

00:37:51.420 Yeah. Because what's happening is you are getting a real time movement of that cell phone. If someone

00:37:59.060 is in a car, you will see that line just move through time in a kind of steady way right past

00:38:04.160 the Dropbox and go to the destination you're going to, the school or the grocery store or wherever,

00:38:09.400 and stop there and then turn around and come back. It's completely different from going to the

00:38:14.640 Dropbox. And most of these mules are doing it on foot. You go to the Dropbox, you turn around,

00:38:19.160 you go back to a point, typically your car, wherever, and then you go to the next Dropbox.

00:38:24.640 So because the mules have been instructed to do these sort of routes, it's very easy to plot those

00:38:30.460 routes and tell the difference between someone just going by. Obviously, if you're getting people

00:38:34.780 just going by a Dropbox, you'd have hundreds of thousands of people doing that. The reason you are

00:38:40.020 able to drill down to 2,000 mules is they're following a very, a kind of very definite pattern,

00:38:46.300 not of scooting by or past Dropboxes, but going directly to them, pausing there, doing something,

00:38:54.460 then turning around and coming back. And now we haven't really gone to this, Megan, but what really

00:38:59.940 clinches the issue in the movie, and I think also for True the Vote, is when you are able to match

00:39:06.100 a cell phone ping or a cell phone track, a pattern of life, to surveillance video that completely

00:39:13.720 confirms what you have found through your technological data.

00:39:18.220 You looked for corroboration. True the Vote, you guys were looking for corroborations. It's like,

00:39:22.040 okay, now we have our suspected mules. We see the suspected patterns, but there may be videotape

00:39:27.820 at these locations. And in some of these states, there was a requirement that these Dropboxes be

00:39:34.120 videoed. It was not usually obeyed from what I see in the movie. But you decided to try to get your

00:39:40.960 arms in as much of that video footage as possible, and then try to relate it back to the geo tracking

00:39:45.400 data to see whether you were getting confirmation of your suppositions or debunk of it, whether they

00:39:52.100 were all being debunked. Before we get to the video and the sort of, you know, part two of your

00:39:56.400 verification, let's look at a clip from the movie on, this is Greg Phillips, you, Catherine, and your

00:40:02.540 wife, Debbie, sitting there together. And he's kind of explaining to you that the one case you

00:40:05.920 mentioned where the guy went to 28 of the Dropboxes. Watch. What you see here on the screen

00:40:12.340 is a single person on a single day in Atlanta, Georgia, they went to 28 Dropboxes and five

00:40:20.700 organizations in one day. To get to some of these Dropboxes, you had to be intentional. You had to get

00:40:27.900 off the highway, you had to go on surface streets, you had to turn in somewhere in order to get to those

00:40:34.400 Dropboxes. Okay, now speak to the video. Right. So the, what you're seeing here is just

00:40:43.000 cell phone geo tracking. There's no video here. The video that we have, and this has been a point

00:40:48.420 that's now being argued about the movie, because they'll say, wait a minute, Dinesh, you're,

00:40:52.040 we're showing a representation of what the cell phone geo tracking shows. It's very obvious in the

00:40:58.040 movie when we're playing the actual surveillance video. And what makes the video so powerful is it's

00:41:03.020 something like this. I mean, I wish there was more video, Megan, because many of these, even in states

00:41:07.940 that took video, they took video at a relatively small number of Dropboxes. In other places, the

00:41:14.120 video was turned off or the camera is not pointed at the Dropbox. It's like pointed at a tree. And so

00:41:20.560 you've got this bizarre phenomenon where you can track a cell phone going from one Dropbox to another,

00:41:25.860 to another, to another. And if you had good video on all those Dropboxes, I'm a hundred percent sure that

00:41:31.140 you would see the mule at all those points. But that would be the smoking gun. That that's the

00:41:35.980 smoking gun evidence that that you needed that isn't in the film. You know, because if you saw

00:41:41.000 that, if you saw the one guy going from place to place to place with your own eyes, it would be

00:41:45.200 irrefutable. But Megan, let me tell you what I think is the smoking gun is this. Think of it this

00:41:49.280 way. Let's use an analogy to clarify, right? Let's say that you have a serial killer and he went to five

00:41:54.240 different homes and he left his DNA at all five. And so in this case, obviously we're talking about

00:42:00.740 digital DNA or phone, not your physical DNA, but it's, it's, it's a very good analogy, but only one

00:42:07.080 of the five homes had video surveillance. Now it shows based on your cell phone tracking that you

00:42:12.940 were at that home at 2 15 AM in the morning, the one home that has surveillance. And you go look in the

00:42:18.800 video and you look at 2 15 AM in the morning and there the guy is, or in our case, there the mule

00:42:24.580 is. And what's he doing? Stuffing ballots into the box. So do you really need to have video in all

00:42:29.700 five homes when you have electronically established that the guy was there and in the one place that

00:42:34.900 he got to at 2 15, you see him on the video. Isn't that enough to convince you that he was at all

00:42:39.660 those spots and there's confirmation provided in the one place where video was available?

00:42:44.840 Mm-hmm. No, I see your point. And it's definitely suspicious. I, I have no doubt of that. It's, you

00:42:50.000 wouldn't get a conviction though in a court of law. I don't, it's the case isn't quite strong enough.

00:42:54.200 You'd need, you would need more, but this isn't a court of law. This is a documentary that's trying

00:42:59.060 to ask questions and also ask why more people aren't asking questions. That's, that's one of the

00:43:06.180 missions I think of the film, right? To get people interested in looking into it. Um, before I show the

00:43:12.120 videos, cause there, we do have a couple of them. Who are the nonprofits? You call them, uh, stash

00:43:18.840 houses that they, they, because to be a mule, don't forget, you have to go to at least 10 or more drop

00:43:23.220 boxes in a two week period. And you also to get flagged by the truth of vote team had to swing by

00:43:29.080 at least five of the nonprofits. So who, who are the nonprofits? That's a big question. That's not

00:43:35.140 exactly addressed in the movie. Yeah, it's not. The nonprofits are not named in the movie.

00:43:40.700 I have their names. True. The vote has their names. Um, this is a, this is a movie phenomenon.

00:43:46.940 Basically when you're putting a movie in the theater, you need three different types of

00:43:50.700 insurance. And so we got into a big fight with these lawyers who insisted that we can't name

00:43:55.840 the nonprofits. Now, normally I would have battled them over this, but the problem was I was trying

00:44:00.660 to get the movie out right away because it's so timely. So I made a prudential decision. All right,

00:44:05.780 I'm going to just go with it, move the movie forward, not name the organizations, but true.

00:44:11.620 The vote has said publicly, look, we have their names. We're happy to provide them to law enforcement.

00:44:16.200 So to the degree that law enforcement says, okay, look, we want to take these cell phone IDs.

00:44:21.360 We want to, um, get a warrant. We want to go talk to the mules who paid you, who organized this,

00:44:26.800 who put all this together, which would be a logical next step. There's also, by the way,

00:44:31.320 a very interesting tax angle here, because as I think, you know, Megan, 501c3 organizations

00:44:36.160 are forbidden by IRS regulations from engaging in partisan electioneering of any kind on behalf

00:44:43.140 of any candidate or any political party. And so quite apart from the potential illegality of the

00:44:49.280 mules, you have the question of what are these left-wing organizations doing, collecting hundreds

00:44:54.520 of thousands of ballots and paying mules to drop them off. That's not what they're supposed to do

00:44:59.840 under IRS rules. When, and we'll show this in a second, but Greg Phillips, the guy who works with

00:45:05.420 Catherine at Truth of Vote, he got an interview with a mule from Arizona who's cooperating with

00:45:11.180 authorities, according to the film. Is that somebody who came from one of the nonprofit centers?

00:45:17.440 Yes, exactly. And she was busted and she agreed to cooperate with the authorities. And that's why we

00:45:23.180 could have her in the film. Now she lives in a in San Luis, Arizona. By the way, the sheriff of Yuma

00:45:29.940 counties, that's the county that encompasses San Luis, just announced a new criminal investigation

00:45:35.260 into ballot trafficking in Yuma County, an area covered by True the Votes research. The mule is

00:45:41.320 from Yuma County. And and so she talks about this operation and it's kind of not from the horse's mouth,

00:45:47.780 but from the mule's mouth, from the mule's mouth. Well, because that's the one thing I wanted more

00:45:52.420 of was people who worked in the centers and people who were the mules. Right. Like, let's I mean,

00:45:57.680 in today's day and age with Project Veritas running around out there, there has to be at least one James

00:46:01.640 O'Keefe. It was like, sure, I'll be your mule. And then, you know, we turn state's evidence on these

00:46:06.160 guys. I wanted more of that. This woman's probably the closest that you have. I'll play her her interview

00:46:13.260 with Greg in part and we'll pick it up there right after another quick, quick break. Dinesh really

00:46:17.920 enjoying the conversation and entertaining as always. Stand by. Dinesh will stay with us and

00:46:23.040 then soon we'll be taking your calls. Would love to know your thoughts. Have you seen the movie?

00:46:26.700 Were you persuaded? What did you make of it? And do you think that there will be a more in-depth

00:46:31.320 investigation? And while you ponder those questions, remember, you can find The Megan

00:46:35.320 Kelly Show live on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 111 every weekday at noon east and the full video show

00:46:41.840 and clips by subscribing to our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash Megan Kelly. If you prefer an

00:46:47.540 audio podcast, follow, download on Apple, Spotify, Pandora, Stitcher, wherever you get your podcasts,

00:46:54.520 it's free. And there you will find our full archives with such, such great shows that you will be

00:46:59.420 entertained all weekend. More than 325 of them now and counting. Okay, you did manage to get one of

00:47:08.880 these mules, um, on camera. Well, I mean, giving an interview and this is sound by eight. Let's take

00:47:15.740 a listen. I was just instructed, uh, to go ahead and receive ballots from various, uh, people, females

00:47:25.420 mostly. And, um, and on Friday they would come and pick up, uh, payment. I would get a call, uh, to find

00:47:34.000 out how many ballots were brought in and if they were already pre-filled out first. And she would

00:47:41.140 come to the office, look at them. And then before she left, she would either take them herself, but

00:47:46.340 other times she would, uh, ask me if I could drop them off at the library. So what was the instruction?

00:47:52.460 Uh, just to drop them off. In the drop box? In the drop box. The early ballots. Can you give me

00:47:59.240 an idea of how many you personally put in the box? Hundreds? Could have been, yes. Um, and was there

00:48:07.960 a reason they wanted you, she wanted you to go to that drop box as opposed to maybe city hall?

00:48:13.360 There's no cameras. There's no cameras there.

00:48:16.400 Hmm. Now what happens? Does law enforcement talk to this person? Do we know whether that went

00:48:22.620 anywhere? Well, we know for a fact that she is cooperating with law enforcement and we know for

00:48:28.860 a fact that there's an investigation going on right there. I would, if there's any place, Megan,

00:48:33.720 I would be reasonably optimistic that this will push forward and that we will see arrests. It's

00:48:38.020 going to be here in Yuma County. Okay, good. I mean, because listen, we don't know whether she's

00:48:43.740 telling the truth. All that needs to be investigated by people who have investigatory skills, uh,

00:48:49.600 something maybe they could have done even prior to now because those nonprofits are identifiable.

00:48:53.660 You have the list. I'm sure law enforcement has the list. And just to be clear, my understanding,

00:48:57.480 you can correct me, Dinesh going into 2020, we had all sorts of election integrity pushes and they

00:49:06.580 came from the left in large part, people saying like Mark Zuckerberg, here's $400 million toward

00:49:12.620 election integrity. And in the film, you cover the fact that usually these things would come with

00:49:17.900 strings attached, like make sure we have a lot of drop boxes and make sure we've facilitated as many

00:49:23.880 mail ballots as possible and make sure there are ads to vote in different languages and so on.

00:49:30.420 So is that basically what we were talking about when we say nonprofits? It's not like a Planned

00:49:34.820 Parenthood. It's like a something election related.

00:49:38.060 Yeah. So we're talking about two different things here. We're talking about a powerful,

00:49:44.540 um, leftist foundations, um, and digital moguls, people like Zuckerberg. Now when Zuckerberg got

00:49:53.160 involved, the media reported it sort of this way, the cities and states are trying to install

00:49:58.260 all these drop boxes. They don't have the money and Zuckerberg is gallantly stepping forward and

00:50:03.780 agreeing to pay for it, but it didn't work actually that way. Zuckerberg funneled the money in through

00:50:09.140 some nonprofits that he controlled. And these nonprofits then sent out letters to all these

00:50:14.460 counties, basically saying, we got a lot of money. We're willing to give you a bunch of it. But to do

00:50:18.800 that, you've got to sign this agreement in which you agree to do lots of mail out balloting and lots

00:50:24.600 of drop boxes. And we want you, and we want you to also say, if you don't do this, you're going to

00:50:29.920 have to give us the money back. So you really had a private individual with massive resources,

00:50:35.960 almost half a billion dollars in this case, using that muscle to infiltrate election offices and

00:50:43.120 control the way that the election is being administered. I mean, it's, it's unprecedented

00:50:47.460 in American history, but quite honestly, it's not clear to me that that's even illegal. I don't think

00:50:52.640 anyone anticipated anyone would attempt something so unbelievably audacious. And yet it was done.

00:50:58.940 I'm not saying that Zuckerberg knew about the mules, but I am saying that if it wasn't for those

00:51:03.420 privately funded drop boxes, the mules wouldn't have any place to go to.

00:51:08.140 And these are very controversial. Even when they were established, there were a lot of folks on the

00:51:11.100 right jumping up and down saying, this is ripe for fraud. This is a bad idea. This is not going to end

00:51:16.320 well. And the other side just kept saying COVID, COVID, COVID, we have to make it as easy as possible

00:51:20.520 for people to vote. And here we are. One thing I wanted to follow up with you on, you said earlier,

00:51:25.620 so it's very suspicious to you that this was done in all these swing states. We mentioned the five,

00:51:30.540 you said, and evidently nowhere else. But how do we know that, Dinesh? Because you guys didn't look

00:51:35.580 elsewhere. You know, you, as far as I understand, you know, you didn't take a hard look at North

00:51:40.040 Carolina or Florida or Ohio, even Texas, where, you know, it's a little bit more of a swing state

00:51:45.820 these days. So how do we know it didn't happen there? Because if it was happening there too,

00:51:49.920 maybe that would make these videos and these data seem less nefarious.

00:51:55.840 Well, I think it probably happened other places. I mean, it's kind of like saying if you go out on

00:52:00.320 your porch with a flashlight and you keep flashing it here and there and you count ants everywhere you

00:52:04.460 go, you can be sure there's a whole bunch of ants on your porch that you haven't counted with the

00:52:09.200 original turning on of your flashlight. But on the other hand, I rejected the idea of taking the

00:52:15.600 estimate of fraud in these five areas and somehow extrapolating to the whole country because I put

00:52:21.440 myself in the place of the fraudsters. I thought, look, if I'm going to cheat, I don't need to cheat

00:52:25.580 everywhere. I don't need to go where the money is. Yeah. Let me cheat in North Carolina. I'll cheat in

00:52:30.180 Florida. I'll cheat in Ohio. I'll cheat in Nevada. I'll cheat in the places where I think I can swing

00:52:36.400 it to my side. So I'm quite confident that if true, the vote looks in those places, there's a very good

00:52:42.960 chance they would find it cheating. But we don't even imply or allege this in the movie because I

00:52:47.220 want to stay with the evidence that we have. Yeah, because when I was first formulating that

00:52:52.400 question, I was going to list states like, why not just to cast a wider net and check states like

00:52:57.460 Oregon, you know, like New York. But I realized the answer is, well, duh, that's not where the

00:53:01.960 Democrats, if they were cheating, were going to put their efforts. They knew they had those states

00:53:05.300 secure. That would have been a waste of time, money and effort. So they would have gone to swing

00:53:09.060 states only. There are more swing states than the ones you looked at. Your point is it may have

00:53:14.180 been happening there, too. You just haven't done the analysis. So let's speak to the second piece

00:53:18.860 of what you say is your your proof. And that is the video evidence. You know, you find your suspected

00:53:24.680 mules and then you see, is there any video evidence of this person? And as we discussed earlier,

00:53:29.580 we don't have like the smoking gun of here's the guy going on camera, going from this one to that

00:53:35.180 Dropbox to the next Dropbox. I mean, that would have been gold didn't happen for the reasons you

00:53:39.340 discussed. But there is video. Let me let me pause for just a second. We do have the same mule at more

00:53:47.100 than one Dropbox. It's just that when you look at the video alone, it is not absolutely clear that

00:53:53.860 it's the same guy. Now, we know it's the same guy because it's the same cell phone. But the problem

00:53:58.360 is with the the video quality itself is fuzzy. And let's remember, these aren't cinematographers.

00:54:02.920 These are people that stick up, you know, the surveillance camera off in a distance away.

00:54:07.380 So we have the same mule at more than one location. I'm just saying that as an eyewitness,

00:54:12.100 it's not obvious. Oh, yeah, it's 100 percent sure it's the same guy. We know it's the same guy,

00:54:16.180 really, because it's the same cell phone. OK, all right. But you don't have any widespread

00:54:20.320 proof of that. I mean, like you may have the one guy, but I assume you would have put it in the

00:54:23.340 film if you've got a bunch of mules also on camera going from spot to spot to spot.

00:54:27.360 Exactly. The reason I rejected putting it in the film is I looked at it and I go, look,

00:54:32.420 to me, it's not obvious it's the same guy. I mean, I realize electronically we know it is,

00:54:36.840 but because it's not like a slam dunk, the same. Yeah, there's no reason. Close up.

00:54:40.740 I said, you know what? I'm not going to put it in the movie.

00:54:42.920 Well, this is this is one of the irritations that I have when I see the so-called fact checks

00:54:46.300 of the movie is like they're treating you like you're a criminal prosecutor and you needed to make

00:54:50.260 a case beyond a reasonable doubt in this film. And you never promised that you didn't. You never

00:54:54.300 promised them a rose garden. You know, you seem to be raising questions. You certainly think that

00:54:58.460 there was fraud, but it's up to people to make up their own minds on whether we need more

00:55:03.260 investigation and whether they think you've closed the loop. It's basically straw man to try to say

00:55:08.840 like you didn't get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. OK, but let me pause it because I want to

00:55:11.840 show this clip of video and how you guys say this is a mule. This is in Georgia. This is soundbite

00:55:19.300 too. So we're going to show you a couple of different ones. This particular individual

00:55:23.020 we have in a number of different locations at a number of different times. He's actually

00:55:27.720 a mule. This is the official surveillance video of Georgia. Absolutely. And so as the

00:55:35.480 person pulls up, they don't even bother parking. Of course, middle of the night. So why would

00:55:39.780 they? He gets out, approaches the box. When people walk up with intention to cheat, they

00:55:48.660 look around. They basically walk fairly quickly. They try to stuff him in. They try to get out

00:55:53.300 of there. In this case, he drops a few on the ground, pick him up, stuff him into the box.

00:56:01.800 He's going back to his car. And he hustles back and hustles out of there.

00:56:04.600 So this is what it looks like. It doesn't necessarily look like, you know, hundreds

00:56:11.120 of ballots being stuffed in. You don't need a whole lot of fraud. You just need a little

00:56:14.440 in the right places over time. OK, so that's that's what you say it looks like. That's Georgia.

00:56:20.940 Then there's this example of this woman. I think this is one of the most damning ones. This is

00:56:27.440 example number three. So our sought three of a woman. Now she's in Georgia. This is during the

00:56:32.780 runoff for the Senate. She's wearing gloves. She's wearing like the latex gloves that people

00:56:37.740 were using a lot. Well, sometimes during covid. Take a take a listen. And for those who are in

00:56:43.840 our listening audience, I'll describe what we're seeing. This particular one is approximately one

00:56:49.380 o'clock in the morning on January the 5th. She has her ballots in there. It's like a small stack is

00:56:55.020 maybe three, maybe four. Takes them off, takes off the gloves and then puts them in a trash can that

00:57:00.140 she never looked at. So she knew it was there. It was there. Right. And so we have her on a

00:57:06.120 number of locations. She's an out of state mule. And then this is in no way the only drop box that

00:57:11.820 she attended. That's right. No, she's she's goes to dozens and dozens over the course of these two

00:57:18.220 elections. Now, we don't know she's out of state. Dinesh, you say that her cell phone was from South

00:57:23.560 Carolina, but there she was in Georgia. But, you know, I just moved from New York to Connecticut and I

00:57:28.180 still have a New York cell phone like you don't you don't know that. I agree. I mean, I still have

00:57:32.760 a California area code on my phone and I live in Texas. OK, so that's a supposition there. So

00:57:38.680 so the gloves, some of the people attacking you are like, well, it was covid. You know,

00:57:43.120 she wanted to wear gloves, but she takes them off the second she drops the ballots in. Like,

00:57:48.580 didn't did she have nothing else she was ever going to touch before she got back into her home

00:57:52.020 and turned her front doorknob? Well, there's that. And then there's additional factor,

00:57:56.600 which I think settles the issue. And that is that if you look at the mules in the early voting

00:58:01.780 and then leading up to even Election Day, they're not wearing gloves. But it's only after the

00:58:07.040 indictment comes down in Arizona on, I believe, December 22nd, an indictment based upon the FBI

00:58:13.520 finding fingerprints of mules on multiple ballots that the word goes out and literally the next day

00:58:20.280 mules are all over the place wearing gloves. So it it with any hypothesis, you have to see which

00:58:27.600 hypothesis fits the facts better. The covid hypothesis doesn't really work here because

00:58:32.380 it doesn't explain why there were no gloves. Obviously, there was covid in October and November

00:58:37.620 of twenty twenty and why the gloves only start appearing mid-December and then early January of twenty one.

00:58:43.140 Yeah. And again, anybody who's a covid freak wearing the latex gloves running around understands

00:58:48.260 that once the ballots are dropped, doesn't make them sitting in their living room at home instantly.

00:58:53.220 You got a lot of layers to go through to get back into your home. If you're so afraid of covid

00:58:56.960 that you're wearing latex gloves while you're running around doing errands, you leave them on until

00:59:01.040 you get back home. You know, shouldn't take them off and then put on another pair, which would have

00:59:05.600 been senseless. Anyway, that is suspicious to me. I will give you that one.

00:59:08.500 And by the way, you say that it was happening all over the place. Do you have proof of that

00:59:13.800 on the videos that you guys have looked at? Are there more alleged mules wearing latex gloves

00:59:18.960 after that ruling? Oh, absolutely. No. And in fact, we show a bunch of them in the movie.

00:59:23.840 She's not the only one wearing gloves. You'll see multiple images of mules taking off gloves

00:59:28.220 and tossing them in trash cans. That's like part of the M.O. of the mules.

00:59:31.580 Mm hmm. And why would you do that if you if you weren't, you know, who's concerned about their

00:59:36.640 fingerprints on a ballot? OK, here's another one. Now, this is this is a guy. This is out of Atlanta.

00:59:45.120 He's on a bicycle. And there's been some pushback on this clip, too. This is soundbite for again from

00:59:51.300 2000 Mules. What you're going to say is he approaches the drop box on his bike.

00:59:56.460 He also has a backpack on. Pulled the ballots out of his backpack. Taking his time. Taking his time,

01:00:04.720 digging around, looking for some ballots. Finally gets that, pulls them out. OK, now I'm set.

01:00:10.480 And he'll put them in. But you also see him get sort of frustrated as he starts to leave,

01:00:17.640 because guess what? At this point, they had started requiring the mules apparently to take pictures of

01:00:25.280 the stuffing of the ballots. It appears that that's how they get paid. So they take a picture and stuff

01:00:31.660 it in. They take a picture, not a selfie, but a picture of the actual ballot going in. But this guy

01:00:37.420 gets frustrated. So he actually has to park his bike, get off. So if you were there just casting your

01:00:43.040 own ballot, what reason in the world would you have to come back and take a picture of the box?

01:00:50.480 Of the box. Dinesh, some of the pushback, and this is, I think, from Washington Post,

01:00:54.580 has said a lot of people were taking selfies of themselves voting in connection with the 2020.

01:01:00.500 Like, OK, for the listening audience, this guy did not do a selfie. He did look annoyed that he had to

01:01:05.980 come back a second time on the bike. He gets off the bike and then he takes a picture of the box,

01:01:10.440 not of himself, not of a smiling, you know, he doesn't have some I voted sticker.

01:01:15.900 He seems to be trying to amass proof that he shoved ballots into this box.

01:01:22.540 Exactly. And the other thing is, you'll notice that almost all of this mule activity is occurring

01:01:27.520 between about one and four in the morning. Now, there are some quips in the movie about prime voting

01:01:32.980 time and don't we all vote at one o'clock in the morning? So if this operation is all on the up and

01:01:38.540 up, people delivering ballots of family members, nonprofit organizations, innocently culling

01:01:44.640 votes and just saying, listen, guys, you know what? Let's make it easy for the voter by you

01:01:48.340 dropping them off. When you watch the movie, you begin to realize that's not what it looks like at

01:01:53.380 all. The whole context of it, a guy pulling up in a car, looking to the left and right. Is anyone

01:01:58.560 watching me? OK, let me move ahead. So the whole context of it is the way that you would expect some

01:02:04.220 sort of a criminal cartel to be functioning. And and I think this is really what makes the

01:02:09.400 the movie so persuasive on an emotional level. I mean, as a filmmaker, when I first met with

01:02:14.320 Catherine and Greg and I was fascinated by their geo tracking evidence, but I was really sold when

01:02:19.540 I saw the video evidence because the video evidence is so cinematic. If you're going to make a whodunit

01:02:23.920 just from a movie point of view, it's really important to be able to show the criminals

01:02:27.920 like breaking into Fort Knox. And we're able to do that in this movie.

01:02:32.160 Now, not all of them held up.

01:02:34.500 There's there's one. This is soundbite six man in a white SUV.

01:02:39.960 And your narration over the clip says this is a crime. What you're seeing is a crime.

01:02:43.820 These are fraudulent votes. But this guy, according to the authorities down in Georgia,

01:02:46.880 turned out to be legit and was no mule. Let me play it so the audience can see for themselves.

01:02:51.540 Soundbite six.

01:02:54.580 What you are seeing is a crime. These are fraudulent votes.

01:03:00.280 This guy's standing at the drop box, feeding one in after the other.

01:03:03.140 It turns out it was five. And down in Georgia, they actually did look into that. And it turns

01:03:07.660 out they found the guy. They tracked him down. He told them that he had dropped off ballots

01:03:13.920 from members of his household, his wife and his three adult kids, which would be lawful.

01:03:18.200 The investigators corroborated this by looking up the voting records of all five family members,

01:03:23.320 confirming that their ballots were deposited in that drop box the day the surveillance was recorded.

01:03:28.920 So does that not undermine the claims in the movie? Right. Who else was ensnared in your web

01:03:36.420 who turned out to be a legitimate voter and not a mule?

01:03:41.220 Well, in this particular case, I listened very carefully to what the investigator said.

01:03:46.660 And and part of what he said made sense and part of what he said made no sense.

01:03:51.520 So what he said was he went and talked to the mule or let's just call him individual.

01:03:58.000 And that guy goes, oh, no, I wasn't dropping off any illicit votes. I was merely dropping off the

01:04:02.820 votes of my family members. And he apparently had five family members. So there was clearly the

01:04:08.140 possibility that he was telling the truth. Here's the part that gets me, Megan. And that is,

01:04:13.500 if you know what custody documents look like, they do not record the names of individual voters.

01:04:18.900 And so and not to mention the fact that once a ballot is opened and the ballot is taken out of

01:04:25.600 the envelope, the two pieces of evidence, if you will, are separated. In other words, there's no

01:04:30.640 name, there's no address, there's no signature on the ballot. The signature is only on the envelope.

01:04:36.540 And when those two things are separated, this process cannot be reverse engineered. So the question

01:04:41.900 I have, which I do not believe they're being entirely straight about, that they verify that these

01:04:48.280 family members voted in that box? How did they do that? Are you telling me that the names of every

01:04:53.460 voter is listed on a custody document, you open a ballot box with 1800 votes or 700 votes, the names

01:04:59.900 of all the voters in that box are written down? That is not the case. And so I'd like to find out

01:05:04.740 where was the real verification? I fully accept that this guy said it was that he wasn't doing anything

01:05:11.360 illegal. But how they were able to verify that is, to me, a little bit baffling.

01:05:16.660 Now, they're saying in Georgia, because this a lot, a lot of stuff went down in Georgia,

01:05:20.400 and they're saying that they have subpoenaed Catherine's group and maybe you, too, you can tell

01:05:27.840 me and that she's not being as cooperative as they would like. They want all the data. They want to look

01:05:34.000 into it. What's the status of that?

01:05:35.780 So this is a very tricky business because there's very tricky politics in Georgia. As you know,

01:05:42.380 there's an ongoing primary fight between David Perdue and Brian Kemp. Raffensperger, the Secretary

01:05:49.240 of State, came out publicly after the election, declared it was a safe and secure election,

01:05:54.740 got into a verbal spat with Trump over this, which was widely reported, was hailed as a hero in the

01:06:00.940 media. And so here's the kind of political question. With somebody like that, aren't they now

01:06:06.900 in a little bit of an awkward position? Because they're having this investigation. And if the

01:06:11.180 investigation proves that true, the vote is right, essentially, you have to have a sheriff,

01:06:15.880 Raffensperger, saying that a big heist was going on under his nose, and he had absolutely no idea.

01:06:20.900 He's only finding out now, due to some independent group in Texas that did the detective work that he

01:06:26.020 should have done himself. So all of this is very dicey. Apparently, what the Georgia investigators

01:06:32.240 are doing, and no, I haven't gotten a subpoena, is they're going to true the vote and basically

01:06:36.600 saying, divulge the name of your whistleblower, because that's where we want to start. Now,

01:06:42.240 the whistleblower came to true the vote and said, from the beginning, I refuse to let my name be

01:06:47.180 known. I'm going to tell you what I did, and you're welcome to independently verify it, but I do not

01:06:52.640 want to be part of this process. So the whistleblower is in hiding. And the Georgia investigators

01:06:56.920 are trying to open their investigation by going that way. Catherine and Greg have told the Georgia

01:07:02.120 people, why are you doing it that way? Why don't you essentially unmask the mules and talk to them?

01:07:08.380 Because they obviously are not going to want themselves to be in trouble. They're going to

01:07:12.500 happily divulge what this operation is all about. So I can't claim to have the inside knowledge of

01:07:19.100 this investigation, but the resistance from Catherine and Greg is not because they don't

01:07:23.260 want to cooperate. They're actually very eager to cooperate with the state of Georgia, but they

01:07:27.700 don't know if the state of Georgia is kind of playing games with them. Are they actually trying

01:07:32.140 to figure out what happened, or are they actually trying to suppress what happened?

01:07:36.580 Unmask the mules. That's what you believe the next step is. So it's not, because if I'm thinking

01:07:41.260 as a law enforcement matter, the first thing you'd want to do is go to all the nonprofits,

01:07:45.000 start interviewing everybody. What did you do? What exactly was your role? Let me see,

01:07:48.960 a list of your payroll. Where did your money go? Let's figure out, like, you tell me who does

01:07:53.600 business with this organization and who you've paid for help in connection with the election,

01:07:58.300 which would also be a good place to start. But your point is, another very good place would be,

01:08:03.120 because we talked about how you can unmask those little dots that you see on the

01:08:06.400 geo-tracking data, do that for at least some collection of the suspects that you guys have

01:08:12.740 identified and see what they have to say.

01:08:15.100 Yeah, I don't even think the mules are the real villains here. Some people on social media are

01:08:20.560 railing on the mules. You know, one guy goes, I'm going to go to these mules and get my gas money

01:08:24.580 back because the gas prices evidently are being blamed on Biden and the mules are. Look, the

01:08:29.960 problem with the mules is what, and you see this when you, when you, when we see the interview with

01:08:33.620 the mule in the movie, she's basically, you know, someone who's like, I got to, you know, this is the

01:08:38.840 way I made some extra money. And there are a couple of other people, by the way,

01:08:42.140 traffickers interviewed in the movie. There was a case in 2018, where very interestingly, the

01:08:47.500 ballot trafficking was done on behalf of a Republican candidate. Yeah. But a couple of

01:08:52.780 the traffickers are interviewed and they go, I'm just trying to get some Christmas money. I mean,

01:08:56.540 for me, so for a lot of the mules, it's not I'm trying to rig the election for Joe Biden. They're

01:09:01.080 just doing what they were told and they're doing it for the money. And so the problem here is the

01:09:06.420 people who put them up to it. Right. And they, and you point out the movie, they could get up around

01:09:10.340 10 bucks a ballot. Um, so you can make some good dough if you want to be a mule, but yeah, it's,

01:09:15.380 it's not, they're not the mob boss. They're just the low level worker. And the interesting party would

01:09:19.880 be the mob boss who's at the nonprofits. What, if anything, did they do, who did they pay and what

01:09:25.020 exactly did they pay them for? And, and by the way, who were they getting the ballots from? That's

01:09:28.920 back to the question I asked you earlier, like it's got to originate somewhere. Now question for you,

01:09:33.220 because when I asked you where the ballots came from, you said, you know, I got serious questions about

01:09:37.760 whether these were all willing participants who just handed over their votes to somebody who took

01:09:42.680 them to a nonprofit center. Um, but Catherine was asked at a legislative hearing in March in

01:09:49.400 Wisconsin. Uh, are you, you're not claiming the ballots themselves are fraudulent, are you? And

01:09:54.880 her answer was, we are not suggesting that the ballots that were cast were illegal ballots. So do you

01:10:01.300 agree with that? Well, I think we should be careful here about what we're talking about.

01:10:07.800 Obviously no one is saying that the physical ballot is fraudulent that we're not, in other words,

01:10:12.700 we're not saying that these are ballots that were, for example, separately printed, that they're not

01:10:16.680 real ballots. They're real ballots. Well, I mean, Hans, as I mentioned, he's in the documentary

01:10:20.260 suggesting could have been photocopied on a high quality. I mean, that would be an illegal ballot.

01:10:24.400 Yes, it would. And that has been done in both fraud cases in the past. In this case,

01:10:28.180 we just don't know. And the reason that it's so important to do this investigation is all this

01:10:33.020 knowledge, the questions that we don't know are hardly impossible to find out. So for example,

01:10:38.440 as you said, there are two independent courses of investigation, talk to the mules and in a sense,

01:10:44.500 raid the vote stash houses. And they're going to tell you where these ballots came from. They're

01:10:49.520 going to have to show you where they came from. So if you or I can't pinpoint where they came from,

01:10:55.360 because we didn't get them, the organizations most certainly are able to do that. Now,

01:11:02.080 what Catherine, I think, was doing is just narrowing her focus to say, this is what we know.

01:11:07.340 And then there are things that we don't know. So what she's saying is we are following this ballot

01:11:11.840 from the box back to the vote stash house. And our investigation sort of stops there. We know where

01:11:18.360 the ballot started and we know where the ballot ended. But where the ballot originally came from is

01:11:23.480 outside the scope of our investigation. And I agree with that. But I also think that further

01:11:28.420 investigation can solve and answer that question. And I'm pretty sure it's going to reveal that there

01:11:33.220 is basically a mechanism, which the Democrats, by the way, have been doing for decades, but ramped up

01:11:39.220 in 2020 to get your hands on all kinds of mail-in ballots. And remember, the infrastructure here was

01:11:46.180 already in place. Very bad voter rolls. And anytime a state like Georgia tries to clean them up,

01:11:51.860 they get sued for voter suppression. So the Democrats like the rolls to be bad, because then

01:11:57.140 when mail-out ballots go out, they go out to all kinds of people who are dead, who have moved,

01:12:02.120 students who have graduated and moved to another state. And so there's the opportunity for fraud is

01:12:07.400 huge. At the same time, I'm very careful in the movie to show that merely having the opportunity to

01:12:13.740 have a heist doesn't mean that there was a heist. And where the movie, I think, really takes off is

01:12:18.660 it's able to show not merely the possibility of these things happening, but that they did in fact

01:12:23.500 happen. Well, that's I mean, I would say a lot of my viewers and listeners have texted me or written

01:12:29.380 in saying, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think of 2000 Mules? And what I think,

01:12:33.640 Dinesh, is it's a good start. You know, I think it's a start. And I think what you're asking for is

01:12:38.740 for law enforcement to take the baton or a secretary of state's office to take the baton

01:12:43.340 and continue investigating. There are limits to your powers. You don't have the power to get

01:12:48.440 warrants and so on and actually unmask anybody. And that's all it needs to be. People holding you

01:12:53.720 to a higher standard than that, I think, misunderstand your purpose. You you offer your

01:12:57.780 conclusions. That's fine. You're allowed to do that's what you always do. You sell is what I

01:13:00.760 think. That's what I see. And people can draw their own conclusions, too. I think it's it raises a lot

01:13:04.840 of serious red flags that need to be looked into. But a lot of folks also want to know as follows.

01:13:09.700 This is one of our Twitter followers sent in this question for you. How do you know Mules were only

01:13:14.420 dropping votes for Biden and not for Trump? Right. Like what was in those envelopes? Because the movie

01:13:20.320 also talks about. There were enough Mules and enough votes, you believe, to have changed outcome,

01:13:27.040 to have changed the results in places like Georgia, where the difference between Trump and Biden was

01:13:31.560 some 12,000 votes and so on. So the reason that we would attribute these votes to Biden is the

01:13:39.380 following. Number one, the fraud is occurring in heavily Democratic controlled areas, areas where

01:13:47.500 really Republicans are nowhere to be found. Number two, these are far left wing organizations that are

01:13:54.040 doing this ballot trafficking. They're the vote stash houses. And number three, what Greg and Catherine

01:14:00.060 did in a kind of ingenious move is they matched the mule IDs, the mule cell phone IDs with the cell

01:14:06.860 phone IDs of Antifa BLM rioters that had riots. It so happened that in the aftermath of George Floyd,

01:14:13.680 there were a lot of riots in these urban areas in the exact same period leading up to the election.

01:14:19.440 And so by matching cell phone IDs, you can identify the fact that a substantial number, not a majority,

01:14:24.660 but a substantial number of the mules are also BLM and Tifa rioters. And so you put all these factors

01:14:31.140 together. And then I guess you would add the obvious fact, which is Joe Biden won the election.

01:14:35.560 And you say, look, you're looking at left wing areas, left wing organizations, Antifa BLM mules.

01:14:42.080 What's the probability that they're culling these votes for Trump? I mean, to flip the thing on its head,

01:14:47.020 imagine if in 2016, there was an exactly similar organization, a similar operation being organized

01:14:53.640 by the Heritage Foundation, the National Rifle Association, and they were doing this in evangelical

01:14:58.760 churches and collecting votes. Would anybody say, we really have open questions about who these votes

01:15:04.760 are for based on who's doing it? You would know for sure that this is being done to rig the election

01:15:09.500 for Trump. Yeah, fair point.

01:15:11.620 Right. So what about result and outcome? Because the movie makes some sweeping claims of like,

01:15:18.320 OK, 2000 mules, you know, 500 in Michigan, average number of Dropbox visits, 50 average number of

01:15:26.540 illegal ballots per visit, five. That's 125,000 illegal votes. The vote difference between Trump

01:15:31.980 and Biden was 154,000. Biden would still win. But, you know, you're sort of getting it tighter.

01:15:36.360 So we don't know. I mean, you use that term illegal ballot loosely. It's not we don't really know. We

01:15:42.560 don't know. But you're trying to make the case, as I understand it, that this could have changed

01:15:46.660 outcome. Well, we're trying to highlight the point that this was a really close election. You know,

01:15:52.460 one of the rules that courts use, by the way, in 2018, it's mentioned in the movie,

01:15:56.840 a congressional election was overturned in North Carolina, not by a court, by the way, but by an

01:16:01.040 election board. Now, the criteria as a Republican doing it there, that was a Republican doing it

01:16:05.420 there. The the criterion that the courts normally use on election boards is what's called the sort

01:16:10.900 of but for principle, which is but for the fraud with the election have come out differently.

01:16:16.720 And that's really why we have this section in the movie. We're trying to show that, look,

01:16:20.220 we're not talking about 100 votes here or 200 votes there. We're talking about thousands and in some

01:16:26.940 cases, tens or hundreds of thousands of votes in the aggregate in states like Georgia, which were

01:16:32.320 decided by 11,000 votes, Arizona, 10,000 votes, Wisconsin, 20,000 votes. These are extremely

01:16:39.320 close states. And so we're saying that the idea that the but for standard can be met, we think

01:16:47.120 that this is a volume of fraud by itself, looking at only the 2000 mules that could have made the

01:16:52.240 difference. Do we think these drop boxes are a permanent fixture now? I mean, are they are they

01:16:56.860 going away before the next election? I don't think they are going away. Now, it is true.

01:17:02.060 There are some people who say we need to get back to election day. Everybody shows up to vote. And

01:17:06.440 there's a part of me that wants that to happen. We obviously would allow absentee ballots, but under

01:17:11.640 limited conditions. But see, these are laws that are made at the state level. And as long as you're

01:17:16.380 going to have sort of decentralized laws being made by individual states, I think you're going to have

01:17:20.480 drop boxes. Now, one of the things I'd like to put on the table for the movie like this is what is the

01:17:27.460 rationale for not doing electronic surveillance 24 seven on every drop box? Yes, there is no no

01:17:36.020 rationale that it's you. It should be you want a drop box. No problem. You get your drop box. It only

01:17:42.000 the votes in that drop box will only count if they can ensure that that thing is under 24 seven clear up

01:17:49.320 close video surveillance. And sorry, if it fails, so does your vote. So does your your collection of

01:17:55.760 votes. That's the way it's going to have to be. That's election security. I mean, Megan, every every

01:18:00.860 Home Depot, every parking lot, every ATM technology is available. It's very cheap to do. In fact, it's

01:18:07.800 called for in the election rules. You don't even need new laws. It's just that a lot of the states

01:18:12.400 flouted the laws. And in some places like Arizona, they literally had cameras, but turned them off.

01:18:17.220 Yeah. And what was the the county that wrote back to Catherine saying something like,

01:18:21.920 I have no explanation for why I have absolutely nothing to produce to you in your call for video

01:18:28.240 evidence? That's Fulton County and notorious, by the way, has had a notorious history of fraud.

01:18:33.380 And and it was very difficult to get this video. It's it's you know, you think in public information

01:18:38.360 requests, they'd be happy to turn it over to you. But apparently no one had seen this video. When we put

01:18:42.960 these videos out, they had never been seen before. And isn't that remarkable that you've got this?

01:18:48.880 This is official state surveillance footage. You think that they would be sort of looking at this

01:18:52.720 periodically to see if there's anything there that they should pay attention to. Evidently,

01:18:56.640 they didn't do it. All right. Last question before I let you go.

01:19:00.140 Dinesh, do you believe so Dinesh D'Souza? I told my audience this when I aired the long clip of the Bill

01:19:05.180 Ayers interview when we were covering Chesa Boudin. So Dinesh D'Souza is the man who helped me make

01:19:12.100 that happen. That would not have happened had it not been for Dinesh, who was making one of his

01:19:15.980 movies and Bill Ayers was in it. And Dinesh was on my set one day and he's like, do you think you'd

01:19:20.000 want to interview Bill Ayers? I'm like, hell yes. So that one and Ward Churchill happened to my

01:19:25.640 favorites. Absolute favorite interviews ever. Thanks to you. And I thought about you a million

01:19:30.260 times as we see now Bill Ayers, domestic terrorist, head of the Weather Underground founder who married

01:19:34.820 another domestic terrorist whose best friends were domestic terrorists who produced a little boy named

01:19:39.920 Chesa Boudin. But that second couple didn't get to raise Chesa Boudin because they went to jail for

01:19:45.120 killing two security guards and a police officer in a Brink security robbery and who raised their son,

01:19:51.180 Bill Ayers, and his domestic terrorist wife, Bernadine Dorn. So many to keep track of. Now Chesa's the D.A.

01:19:57.640 He's the D.A. in San Francisco. He's facing a recall election in January on June 7th because he's been

01:20:03.040 so light on crime. Duh. Who could have seen that coming? And I would love your thoughts on Chesa Boudin

01:20:09.080 before I let you go. I mean, first of all, Megan, your interview with Bill Ayers is a classic of

01:20:15.100 modern, the modern television era, the way you handled it, the kind of kind of blunt precision

01:20:21.880 with which you focused your questions. The whole thing was just unbelievably riveting. So I'm delighted

01:20:26.680 to have been. Well, honestly, thinking about it, I was kind of the mule, wasn't I? I was the go-between.

01:20:31.660 I was my mule. I brought Bill Ayers to you and then you took it from there. It was downright awesome.

01:20:37.380 No, I mean, it's unbelievable to me that you've got a guy who's basically a Castroite and a Chavista

01:20:43.140 who's sort of raised in a red diaper family, if you will, by communists, who's the D.A. I don't know

01:20:49.520 if the voters in San Francisco knew all this when they put him in there. I think many of them are

01:20:54.640 figuring it out now. But yeah, you put a guy in like that and he's, in a sense, acting true to form

01:21:00.080 and true to character. I really hope the voters give him the, they pull out the rug in the recall election.

01:21:06.520 Me too. Okay. My crack producer, Canadian Debbie, has actually cut a Bill Ayers thought. Let's take

01:21:11.580 a look at it for old time's sake. Bill Ayers and MK. How many bombings are you responsible for?

01:21:18.100 Weather Underground, I think, took credit for just slightly over 20. Me personally, I've never

01:21:22.460 talked about it, never will. Let me just tell you what I hear when I hear that. I hear you saying

01:21:27.080 you sound like, with respect, Osama bin Laden. While Underground, you stole,

01:21:31.360 you lied, you hid, right? We hid, that's right. Any disagreement? You stole.

01:21:38.580 Onward, yes. You did. You wrote about it in your book. We stole, we stole ID. You stole,

01:21:42.980 you stole purses, you stole wallets. Yeah. Stole money. Some. You still, you ripped off dead

01:21:48.500 babies' identities. Right. Yeah. And yet, the violence continued. Just because you went underground

01:21:53.500 didn't mean the violence stopped. What violence? March 1st, 1971, you bombed the U.S. Capitol.

01:21:58.360 May 19th, 1972, you bombed the Pentagon. January 29th, 1975, you bombed the State Department.

01:22:05.140 That's what I mean by violence. What would it take to make you bomb this country again?

01:22:08.620 I can't completely say no. I would never, ever rise up in opposition in a very militant and

01:22:13.960 serious way. I can't say I wouldn't. I doubt it. Oh, good times, Dinesh. And you were sitting

01:22:19.760 right there. People know you were there for that. Like you were, you joined us and we had a trio of an

01:22:25.580 interview later, but the tension was thick. It was fantastic. I mean, this is what I, you know,

01:22:32.540 it's almost like we've lost that in TV today. And, uh, I, it makes me wistful for those days

01:22:37.840 because that's, that's journalism. Oh, well, thank you for that. And by the way,

01:22:42.340 crack producer, Canadian Debbie has also cut, she's also got a soundbite of the word Churchill. He's a

01:22:47.280 former professor at the university of Colorado, um, who said some crazy things about nine 11 and

01:22:52.420 essentially that we deserved it. Um, and gotten to a whole legal battle with his university. He

01:22:57.120 was another guy who came to the set one day and it was, I mean, it made the Bill Ayers interview

01:23:02.820 look friendly. Here's a bit of it. You thought that the dead Americans were just like the Nazis.

01:23:08.640 However, you had nothing but praise for the nine 11 hijackers. You called them courageous,

01:23:12.860 even gallant, gallant. Do you believe the United States ought to be bombed?

01:23:18.660 I think the United States by its own rules is subject to being bombed.

01:23:24.540 You can't answer the question. Yeah, I have answered the question. I think the United States

01:23:29.360 should comply with law. If it does not comply law, it opens itself up to it. Bombing that is,

01:23:37.280 it opens itself up to having done to it. Everything it does to anyone else.

01:23:41.960 Answer honestly. Yes or no. Do we deserve to be bombed? Just say it. If you think it's true.

01:23:48.660 I say that if you open yourself up under rule of law for reciprocation in kind, it's quite likely

01:23:58.240 going to happen. He leaned across the table for that last answer and it was, I shall never forget

01:24:07.040 that moment. I didn't know where it was going to go. Fascinating. No, absolutely. Um, um, that is,

01:24:14.520 so this is the radical left that has in a sense taken over our culture. Yes, Dinesh. There's so

01:24:22.380 many more of Ward Churchill's and Bill Ayers in our university systems right now.

01:24:27.100 Yeah. And, and their history is being sort of retroactively written now to glamorize what they

01:24:33.000 did and glamorize their motives. Um, and, um, and all of this is done in the name of social and racial

01:24:40.980 justice. It's complete nonsense. Bill Ayers is a college professor has been, I don't know if he's

01:24:45.700 retired since, but, uh, his wife, uh, Northwestern law school. Okay. Uh, we could go on down the list.

01:24:52.720 Thank you so much for everything. Dinesh, a fascinating watch, highly recommend you watch it,

01:24:57.840 come up with your own questions and your conclusions. It's called 2000 mules. It's in theaters now all the

01:25:03.580 best to you. And we have another great one coming up on Monday. Um, next week we've got Jonathan hate

01:25:08.360 who wrote the book, the coddling of the American mind. Oh my God. It's incredible. If you haven't

01:25:14.340 read that book, also the guys from the fifth column are back and Kelly and Conway's coming on for her

01:25:20.920 first in-depth podcast interview. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda and no fear.

01:25:38.360 Thank you.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 20, 2022

Dinesh D'Souza on Ballot Trafficking, ＂Election Integrity,＂ and His Movie, ＂2000 Mules＂｜ Ep. 326

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