The Megyn Kelly Show - Disturbing NEW Video and Photos Show Armed Mystery Man at Nancy Guthrie's House, with Phil Holloway, James Fitzgerald, and Maureen O'Connell ｜ Ep. 1249

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00:00:45.440 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:57.300 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:58.800 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:00.640 It's now day 10 of the search for Nancy Guthrie, the missing 84-year-old mother of NBC News host Savannah Guthrie.

00:01:07.740 Authorities believe she was forcibly removed from her Arizona home, but beyond that, they don't seem to know much else.

00:01:16.800 Yesterday, the Pima County Sheriff's Department posted on X, quote,

00:01:19.840 investigators have not identified any suspects, persons of interest, or vehicles connected to Nancy Guthrie.

00:01:26.220 Great job.

00:01:26.720 And the FBI, in a statement given to this show and other media outlets yesterday, saying, quote, writing,

00:01:32.460 The FBI is not aware of any continued communication between the Guthrie family and suspected kidnappers, nor have we identified a suspect or person of interest in this case at this time.

00:01:43.680 But the FBI, we've now learned, has been brought in, as I've been reporting, kind of late, and then stiff-armed by the sheriff.

00:01:52.000 As I've been reporting all week, that even though they've been saying it's a joint investigation, that my understanding was the sheriff's office was taking the lead, and the FBI was in a more back row role, well, that's now hit the public.

00:02:05.700 And there are reports that, in fact, they were stiff-armed by the sheriff.

00:02:11.360 Both agencies urging members of the public to come forward if they have any information.

00:02:16.760 And now we have heard, again, directly from Savannah Guthrie on Instagram last night for the first time.

00:02:22.800 She does not appear to be reading from a script, but her tone was not optimistic.

00:02:27.140 Watch.

00:02:29.220 Hi there, everybody.

00:02:30.580 I wanted to come on and just share a few thoughts as we enter into another week of this nightmare.

00:02:46.420 I just want to say, first of all, thank you so much for all of the prayers and the love that we have felt, my sister and brother and I.

00:03:01.540 And that our mom has felt.

00:03:05.540 Because we believe that somehow, someway, she is feeling these prayers, and that God is lifting her even in this moment and in this darkest place.

00:03:17.420 We believe our mom is still out there.

00:03:22.280 We need your help.

00:03:23.440 Law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock, trying to bring her home, trying to find her.

00:03:33.740 She was taken, and we don't know where.

00:03:35.560 And we need your help.

00:03:41.800 So I'm coming on just to ask you, not just for your prayers, but no matter where you are, even if you're far from Tucson.

00:03:49.360 If you see anything, you hear anything, if there's anything at all that seems strange to you, that you report to law enforcement.

00:03:59.520 We are at an hour of desperation.

00:04:06.980 And we need your help.

00:04:07.940 An hour of desperation.

00:04:13.400 Savannah there, having a little makeup on, having done her hair a little bit.

00:04:18.140 And, of course, you know, you have the online nuts who are like, I would never, if my mother were missing, I would never put on a stitch of makeup.

00:04:26.360 Okay.

00:04:27.240 Savannah has obviously had the hardest week plus of her life.

00:04:33.100 Those videos showing her incredibly raw, without hair and makeup done, are what's real.

00:04:40.580 And as somebody who does the hair and makeup virtually every day, I completely related to that feeling of when things are really hard, really hard, you don't do it.

00:04:53.720 And it's part of your depression, your sadness, and your inability barely to get out of bed.

00:05:03.320 So the fact that Savannah's functioning, was able to drag herself in front of the camera the past couple of times to issue those other videos, is pretty Herculean and impressive.

00:05:14.480 And I saw her putting on a little makeup for the latest video as a very good sign of her mental health.

00:05:24.460 Because I think it's armor, in a way.

00:05:28.440 And if you can just, like, make an effort at whatever, looking a little nicer, like a little bit more pop in your lip and the color, it's almost like a sign of, like, I will find myself again.

00:05:45.800 That face that I present to the world every day, I'm still there.

00:05:51.820 I'm in there.

00:05:52.940 I'm suffering.

00:05:55.020 But I'm still in there.

00:05:56.320 That girl who goes out and does the Today Show will be back. 0.97

00:06:00.640 And it's a bit of armor, where it's like, she sounded stronger to me in that video.

00:06:07.060 And her messaging was no longer to the kidnappers.

00:06:10.180 It was to us.

00:06:12.420 You know, let's face it.

00:06:14.400 There's probably not a kidnapper.

00:06:15.880 This is probably a murder.

00:06:17.100 I mean, I'm sorry.

00:06:19.020 That's what I think is.

00:06:19.740 I thought for many days now, those guys, my belief is whoever wrote those ransom notes was an opportunist trying to take advantage of a suffering family.

00:06:31.140 And I'll go through with you what I, I mean, I kind of outlined it in my head.

00:06:38.300 And there was 41 minutes in that house.

00:06:40.700 It was definitely, we know it was a kidnapper of sorts.

00:06:43.140 It was an abductor.

00:06:44.420 Not, maybe not a kidnapper, but an abductor.

00:06:46.180 Because we know she didn't wander off on her own in random, at random.

00:06:50.580 Because who took the Nest cameras?

00:06:53.460 She might have had a senior moment where she fell and hit her head, whatever, and then wandered.

00:06:56.980 Who took the Nest cameras?

00:06:58.720 Did she?

00:06:59.660 She fell and hit her head and then she destroyed and took her two Nest cameras in the front and the back of her home? 0.97

00:07:04.640 No.

00:07:05.380 That didn't happen.

00:07:06.240 Someone did take her.

00:07:08.760 And so why would you take her?

00:07:10.120 You either took her because you wanted to kidnap her for money, or you took her because you wanted to hurt her.

00:07:16.180 I mean, really, is there another realistic option?

00:07:20.460 And I don't believe those people who are harassing the family last week have her.

00:07:24.720 I don't believe a reference to a white Apple watch and possibly its placement on a nightstand, etc.,

00:07:32.080 and a floodlight that could be seen by anybody from the exterior of the home is proof they have anything.

00:07:38.240 As I've been saying, if you wanted to prove, hell, my audience and I could do this with each other.

00:07:46.520 If somebody had me and I gave a couple of comments that only my audience would know the references to,

00:07:52.560 I could satisfy you that somebody had me, right?

00:07:55.700 Like, easily.

00:07:57.340 And it's, for a mother and her children, one or two references from their childhood or some funny moment they had.

00:08:06.280 Some family joke.

00:08:07.420 You know how it is at Thanksgiving.

00:08:08.640 We've got them in my family.

00:08:09.760 You've got them in yours.

00:08:11.400 Some reference, some thing that you make fun of on the one child, not the other.

00:08:17.260 Some joke that the family always brings up to you.

00:08:19.280 It's very easy to prove you have somebody without referencing a floodlight. 1.00

00:08:23.900 That's fucking bullshit. 1.00

00:08:27.000 So this family's been getting harassed by an opportunist, which seemed clear to us, 1.00

00:08:33.540 given the number of fraud stories we've done on this show.

00:08:36.220 It's just these people are heartless, they're sophisticated, and they couldn't care less

00:08:41.880 about hurting an elderly person, a middle-aged person, a child.

00:08:47.940 They don't care.

00:08:48.660 All they want is to get paid.

00:08:50.560 And they saw an opportunity, I believe, to steal $6 million from Savannah Guthrie in her lowest moment.

00:08:58.100 That's my own belief.

00:08:59.780 I hope I'm wrong.

00:09:00.980 I hope I'm wrong, because if I'm wrong, it means there's an actual kidnapper out there with Nancy Guthrie.

00:09:06.300 But obviously, Savannah and her brother and sister did not believe that because they didn't pay the ransom.

00:09:13.060 We're now well over 12 hours past the moment when it was due.

00:09:18.660 And that $6 million ransom deadline has come and gone with no money deposited in the Bitcoin account, according to TMZ, which knows what the Bitcoin account, what its numbers are.

00:09:30.480 They've been checking it to see if anybody's put any money in it all along.

00:09:33.320 And their latest update was nothing was deposited.

00:09:35.760 So they didn't pay the ransom, even though the family said, we'll pay, we're willing to pay on Saturday night.

00:09:41.940 What they were really saying was, give us proof of life.

00:09:46.480 You know, prove to us you have her, and we will pay.

00:09:49.800 Or just proof that you have her, not even of life.

00:09:53.000 And obviously, they didn't get it.

00:09:54.640 So they didn't pay the ransom, and I think that was the right move.

00:09:59.500 As I said yesterday, I don't think I'd pay it.

00:10:01.780 I think someone has taken Nancy Guthrie's life.

00:10:04.760 And the real question in my mind now is, who and why?

00:10:08.640 Why did they remove her from the home before they did it?

00:10:15.720 Because that we know, too.

00:10:17.480 We know they were in there for about 41 minutes, because we know the Nest cameras were taken out at 147, and Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker disconnected from her iPhone at 228.

00:10:29.480 So we know it took about 41 minutes for the perpetrator to do whatever he did inside that home.

00:10:35.900 What did he do?

00:10:36.900 No, it doesn't appear that he killed Nancy Guthrie in her home, because that pacemaker was still connected to the iPhone at 228 a.m.

00:10:46.240 when it appears he took her from the home.

00:10:48.720 It does appear he took her, because A, she's no longer there.

00:10:51.780 B, the pacemaker disconnected from the iPhone at that hour.

00:10:55.220 And C, there was blood, at least on the front stoop, and we believe inside the house.

00:11:01.160 The sheriff continues to say there was DNA inside that they're having analyzed.

00:11:04.220 That all would suggest someone took her, and that she was alive.

00:11:08.760 I just can't get past, why would the pacemaker not have disconnected until 228 if she'd been killed prior to that?

00:11:15.560 If she'd been killed, let's go down the theory of it was family, over at Annie and Tomas' house earlier in the evening, and he never actually did return her at 9.48 p.m.

00:11:26.560 Like the sheriff said, okay, that would be on the pacemaker.

00:11:31.960 We would see that.

00:11:33.040 Clearly, the pacemaker was connected to the iPhone prior to 228 a.m.

00:11:37.900 And was downloading data.

00:11:39.480 And all the research we've done shows that a pacemaker updates periodically, like over the course of a few hours.

00:11:46.060 It's not second by second to the iPhone.

00:11:47.900 So it would be like maybe three hours, you get another upload from your pacemaker onto your iPhone of what your heart's done over the past few hours.

00:11:56.100 And typically, it would be very boring, and you'd be happy to see a boring heart report.

00:12:01.120 But if something massive happened, like you were in a scuffle or somebody was trying to kidnap you, one would think that would be reflected in your heart rate.

00:12:11.200 And certainly, if you died, your pacemaker would reflect that you had died, that there was no heart activity.

00:12:20.180 That would be on the record as of 228.

00:12:25.940 And that's not what the sheriff's telling us.

00:12:29.440 I mean, it makes no sense that the sheriff, if he saw that Nancy Guthrie had died prior to 228, would be engaging in this wild goose chase.

00:12:38.140 Would be saying, I think she's alive, would be engaging, as the feds are, with the Guthrie family on responding to alleged impossible kidnappers.

00:12:45.800 None of their behavior suggests they believe she's definitely passed, which they would know if her pacemaker reflected a death prior to 228 a.m.

00:12:56.800 when it stopped communicating with its phone.

00:13:00.700 So those are the things that we appear to know.

00:13:04.300 41 minutes.

00:13:05.160 She's not just walk off on her own.

00:13:08.880 Someone did take her alive, at least as of 228, and that the sheriff believes that based on the pacemaker data.

00:13:21.640 That leaves us with who and why.

00:13:26.360 Now we're just getting new information in as I'm talking to you.

00:13:28.940 This is from Tom Winter of NBC News.

00:13:36.020 Law enforcement is expected to release a surveillance photo showing a potential subject in the ongoing Nancy Guthrie investigation as soon as this afternoon, according to two senior law enforcement officials.

00:13:49.380 Surveillance photo showing a potential subject.

00:13:52.060 Great.

00:13:53.040 Great.

00:13:55.020 Good.

00:13:55.540 Good.

00:13:55.580 We'll look forward to seeing that.

00:14:00.580 That's the only thing that makes sense, that someone, I mean, I believe that someone took her and probably then took her life.

00:14:09.000 Because think about it.

00:14:10.200 If you are a kidnapper, why are you kidnapping?

00:14:14.160 You're kidnapping because you want money.

00:14:17.680 You want ransom.

00:14:18.600 Okay, well, you just blew that.

00:14:23.380 You didn't.

00:14:24.360 If that was them behind these latest demands, they blew it.

00:14:28.300 They did not provide proof of life and they didn't get their money.

00:14:30.900 Now that's over.

00:14:31.480 If you took her and you didn't submit a ransom demand right away and then two opportunists or one opportunist decided to bomb in and make a Bitcoin demand that you're not behind, you probably would have rushed to make your demand.

00:14:49.080 Concerned that the Guthrie family was going to pay somebody other than you and you probably would have submitted a lock of hair or something to prove you were the actual kidnapper who had her.

00:14:59.140 Nothing.

00:15:00.540 Crickets.

00:15:00.860 So it doesn't appear that somebody is hiding Nancy Guthrie for ransom at this point.

00:15:09.600 If she was killed, the question is who and why.

00:15:14.700 Was it someone who was stalking Savannah Guthrie?

00:15:19.820 We don't have reports of actual stalkers, active stalkers.

00:15:23.100 As I told you, I did receive information from a tipster on somebody who had been stalking Savannah along with others.

00:15:30.100 And this person, I think, was led out of prison years ago, a few years ago.

00:15:35.400 But there's nothing about an active stalking situation or certainly not somebody who they know.

00:15:42.060 And I'm sure at this point the FBI knows if there was an active stalking situation and found out where those people were on the day that she disappeared.

00:15:49.720 Okay, so there's that.

00:15:50.940 It's still possible.

00:15:51.900 We don't know anything.

00:15:52.580 They're not telling us active stalkers, et cetera, or who might be on that list.

00:15:58.360 It could be a crazed fan.

00:16:00.480 Well, stalker kind of suggests crazed fan.

00:16:03.020 Or it could be somebody angry, angry with Savannah.

00:16:06.360 Now, as our guest pointed out yesterday, sadly, that's kind of more likely if something were to happen to me or happen to Tucker because we're more controversial than Savannah Guthrie is.

00:16:17.360 But it doesn't mean it can't happen in her case, too.

00:16:19.360 Even like the cheery morning host can get some lunatic who decides she's awful because she did one report that touched on his favorite issue and he wants to make an example of her. 1.00

00:16:29.100 And he's got a touch of the crazies and he does something about it. 0.84

00:16:33.160 Okay, so it could be some sort of crazed NBC watcher, someone who either loves her, you know, sickly or hates her.

00:16:40.300 It could be somebody who hates Nancy Guthrie. 0.98

00:16:44.060 They're right now today taking the DNA of all the workers who worked on her home, trying to figure out whether they were in the home when they shouldn't have been, et cetera.

00:16:54.300 They're just trying to rule people out right now.

00:16:56.340 It could have been one of those people.

00:16:57.400 Or it could have been somebody closer to home.

00:16:59.660 It could have been a friend or a family member.

00:17:02.400 And that's why they're looking down the road at Annie and Tomas.

00:17:06.900 I don't think they're looking at Savannah who, by all accounts, was in New York when she got the call from her mother's friends or from her sister that they couldn't find their mother.

00:17:19.140 And no one's even mentioned anything about the brother Cameron who's 61 and a retired fighter pilot who I believe lived out of town, too.

00:17:25.680 He didn't show up until a couple days into this saga.

00:17:27.600 So they're all fair game because they're family, and that's where you start.

00:17:33.600 When it comes to the family, you've got to ask, what would the motive have been?

00:17:37.140 You know, you do have to look at Annie and Tomas and ask, who's the beneficiary of any life insurance policy she had?

00:17:47.460 Who's the main beneficiary of any will that Nancy Guthrie had?

00:17:52.960 How much of a burden was Nancy Guthrie to those who were taking care of her?

00:17:56.540 I mean, those are the questions that law enforcement will be asking, and those are the right questions.

00:18:01.540 What was the dynamic between Nancy Guthrie and her family?

00:18:05.080 Was it all rainbows and unicorns?

00:18:06.520 Because let me tell you something.

00:18:07.260 What happens on the Today Show is they only paint a picture of the most happy, lovely things, and everyone's a family member to each other on that set.

00:18:18.960 And obviously, your home life is absolutely perfect.

00:18:22.340 And if they ever go home and do a shoot with your parents, that's only going to be painted in the most perfect light.

00:18:28.340 And look, I'm just going to tell you, these are lies.

00:18:30.800 They're lies.

00:18:32.300 Even now, as I watch them say, oh, no, the Today Show, it really is a family.

00:18:37.640 It isn't.

00:18:39.120 I'm not so enraptured in this story that I haven't forgotten that it's a snake pit over there. 0.99

00:18:45.760 It's a fucking snake pit, okay? 0.98

00:18:48.760 They're literally right now in the Daily Mail, there's an article about how all these backbiters at NBC are feeling kind of bad now because Savannah was out for four to six weeks with a vocal cord surgery. 0.99

00:19:00.660 She wasn't allowed to speak preceding this event.

00:19:03.840 And they were gleefully leaking to the Daily Mail that the ratings went up when she was gone.

00:19:09.980 Oh, she's toast.

00:19:11.760 The viewers don't want her anymore. 0.58

00:19:13.860 You know, she's this, she's that, she's the other thing.

00:19:15.900 Well, now they're like, oh, gee, we feel kind of bad.

00:19:18.120 We feel kind of bad.

00:19:19.540 We crapped all over her while she was out for her surgery. 0.95

00:19:22.580 We were leaking to the Daily Mail that she was likely to get fired because whoever took over for her got a higher rating.

00:19:27.840 That's who the Today Show is.

00:19:30.280 I'm sorry, but let's not fool ourselves.

00:19:32.580 And the cheery, perfect home pictures, they don't know.

00:19:36.040 They don't know what the dynamic is.

00:19:37.160 You have no idea.

00:19:38.540 Do you really know what the dynamic is between Savannah and her sister?

00:19:42.700 Who does the lion's share of the taking care of Nancy? 1.00

00:19:46.780 I guarantee you it's not Savannah.

00:19:49.040 Maybe Savannah financially, but she doesn't even live there. 0.60

00:19:54.020 Savannah lives in lower Manhattan and is living a cosmopolitan New York life.

00:19:58.180 It's the sister who lives 10 minutes away from the mother.

00:20:04.300 And anybody with an 84-year-old mother knows that that can be potentially a heavy lift for the person who's actually there.

00:20:10.320 All right, so these are all the things that they're going to be looking at and are looking at.

00:20:14.640 But right now, other than this news we just get from Tom Winter at NBC, expected to release a surveillance photo showing a potential subject.

00:20:23.680 That's all just subject in the investigation.

00:20:26.140 We don't know of any actual real clues.

00:20:30.060 They're analyzing DNA.

00:20:31.460 That's a real clue.

00:20:32.160 We'll wait to see.

00:20:33.620 They're looking at Annie Guthrie's car.

00:20:35.380 They're looking at Nancy Guthrie's car.

00:20:38.560 Just, we just, we have precious little to go on from the sound of it.

00:20:43.680 Now, they're still looking into those notes because it's not completely impossible that the person who wrote them is a kidnapper, who does have Nancy or did have Nancy.

00:20:57.040 And finally, now that the deadline has come and gone, the reporters who received them are starting to release a little more information.

00:21:04.140 I mean, like, it's over.

00:21:05.320 So, like, I think you can release the details at this point.

00:21:08.420 TMZ's Harvey Levin was on CNN last night, revealing more about what was in the abductor's note that he read, which was the first one, which had the most information from the sound of it.

00:21:23.800 Watch.

00:21:24.660 Well, I mean, we talked about the second deadline, and there is a direct, stark statement about consequences if they didn't get that money.

00:21:36.960 That's all I will say.

00:21:38.140 But it is chilling when you read that sentence.

00:21:41.320 It is short and to the point.

00:21:43.140 But if this really was the only communication between the kidnappers and Nancy Guthrie's family, right, was happening through the media, then we are well past that deadline and that Bitcoin account is empty.

00:21:54.920 I'm just stating the very obvious here.

00:21:58.460 Yeah, that's kind of the way I see it, too.

00:22:02.080 And, you know, I raised this issue of maybe the second letter has a second Bitcoin address, but it doesn't make sense to me because why would Savannah, you know, look, Aaron, we didn't talk specifically, but I'll tell you now.

00:22:15.760 The letter says that she will be returned within 12 hours back in the Tucson area.

00:22:22.640 And then if you look at 12 hours, that's a radius of about 700 miles.

00:22:27.200 That's how you calculated the, yeah, the map.

00:22:28.940 We do have a few updates in the case.

00:22:33.560 Fox News Digital.

00:22:34.620 We mentioned this in passing yesterday.

00:22:36.120 Remember, I read you the Daily Mail piece that kind of referenced in passing that Nancy Guthrie had been watching her Sunday mass with friends.

00:22:46.960 And that's, that was the answer to the mystery of Sunday morning.

00:22:53.760 Well, we'll get to the news on that.

00:22:55.640 Okay, but first this.

00:22:56.600 Fox News Digital is reporting that individuals who did work at Nancy's home have submitted DNA samples.

00:23:01.760 I mentioned that in passing.

00:23:04.160 So that's good they're doing that.

00:23:05.440 And now this, this is the mystery that we've been raising on this show for days now.

00:23:11.580 You remember initially the reports were from the sheriff that Nancy was discovered missing after she failed to show up to church.

00:23:22.700 Here's Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanos trying to explain.

00:23:27.220 Sometime earlier that morning, they got a call from somebody at the church who said, hey, your mom's not here.

00:23:34.980 The family went to the house.

00:23:36.760 At 11 o'clock in the morning, the family got noticed from somebody at church that she was not at church.

00:23:44.000 Someone at church notified them.

00:23:47.200 She was not at church.

00:23:48.480 I could, I could play you four more.

00:23:50.840 Okay.

00:23:51.100 He said it repeatedly.

00:23:53.580 Well, like many of Sheriff Nanos' statements, that did not check out.

00:23:57.780 Because she had not attended service in person in Arizona since the pandemic as broken by the Daily Mail.

00:24:02.620 And every day since the Daily Mail broke that, we at the MK Show have been asking, so how did the family know that she wasn't allegedly at church?

00:24:14.520 Like, what is that report based on if she wasn't actually going to church?

00:24:18.700 Then we found out that there was a live stream, but that you couldn't see if you were a congregant who was participating in it.

00:24:25.120 We reported that to you.

00:24:26.240 Then we found out that there was a chat along with the live stream, and we speculated here, could it possibly be that people reported in the chat that Nancy wasn't there?

00:24:36.420 That this 84-year-old was joining the live stream chat?

00:24:39.140 We had no idea, and no one would answer our questions.

00:24:41.640 But now we know that Nancy did regularly gather with a small group of friends on Sundays to watch a live stream, not of her church in Arizona, but of her daughter Savannah's church in New York City.

00:25:00.120 Fox News reporting that last night.

00:25:02.540 After Nancy did not show up to watch this live stream, on February 1st, Sunday, last Sunday morning, a friend contacted Savannah's sister, Annie, which then set off the desperate search that still has not ended.

00:25:16.520 The pastor of the Guthrie's New York City church spoke out today on the Today Show.

00:25:22.080 I sat down with Pastor Michael Rosenda in the very pews she and Savannah often pray in.

00:25:29.400 This is Savannah's church, and it's also Nancy's church, right?

00:25:34.540 Yeah.

00:25:34.800 Over the years, Nancy would visit, and we got a chance to meet her and know her a little bit.

00:25:40.480 And then during the pandemic, we started out of necessity filming our services, our prayers, our sermons, and putting it out there into the world.

00:25:50.520 And during that time, Nancy started to watch.

00:25:55.580 Okay.

00:25:56.440 Just a word.

00:25:59.400 It's very annoying when these Johnny-come-latelys to the story, bomb in, try to pass judgment on those of us who have been here reporting it from the beginning aggressively and with misinformation.

00:26:11.040 And that's what leads me to Hall Monitor Brian Stelter.

00:26:14.240 Hall Monitor is out there tweeting the following.

00:26:17.440 Online sleuths and internet commentators have sowed confusion in recent days about how exactly Nancy Guthrie's absence was first noticed on February 1st.

00:26:29.360 Here's the deal.

00:26:31.240 And then he goes on to explain what went down.

00:26:34.000 Okay.

00:26:34.380 It's not online sleuths and internet commentators who have sowed this confusion.

00:26:39.800 It came directly from the sheriff multiple times, Hall Monitor.

00:26:45.800 Do your homework.

00:26:47.820 Online sleuths and commentators have been trying to piece together what's real based on the sheriff's 180 reversals of his own comments if you just wait 24 hours.

00:27:00.780 He is the one who said she didn't show up at church and someone at church noticed and called her family.

00:27:11.140 The misinformation around this has just been pretty legion.

00:27:17.300 That sheriff, I mean, she was snatched from her bed.

00:27:20.400 Then he had to take that back.

00:27:22.420 He's had quite a few that he's had to clarify.

00:27:25.600 Nobody's perfect.

00:27:26.760 But spare me the sanctimonious parachuting in with your corrective record, Hall Monitor.

00:27:33.780 Okay.

00:27:34.540 Do your own homework before you try to lecture those of us who have been following this in its every detail.

00:27:41.800 Because actually some of us really do care about getting the facts right and Hall Monitor.

00:27:47.520 Some of us actually do have to worry about this kind of thing happening to us or our loved ones.

00:27:52.660 So we're really fucking invested in making sure we get every fact correct.

00:27:57.280 Unlike you, where you sit there with your tweets and think that you can weigh in and correct people like this show or Ashley Banfield or anybody else who is trying in good faith to get the facts of this case right.

00:28:10.220 We sent Phil Holloway to Houston because we wanted someone of our own.

00:28:19.200 I'm sorry, to Tucson.

00:28:20.920 We wanted someone of our own there to be researching the facts and making sure that we're getting things right.

00:28:27.020 Phil used to be a cop.

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00:28:29.100 And now, of course, he's a lawyer, very smart lawyer, and also a host at MK True Crime.

00:28:35.880 So he is neck deep in true crime cases.

00:28:38.540 He understands reporting.

00:28:40.120 And he's been on the opposite side as a member of law enforcement as well.

00:28:45.160 And he has been on the ground reporting now for about a day there in Tucson.

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00:29:53.480 Phil, welcome.

00:29:54.700 Thank you.

00:29:55.180 Great to see you.

00:29:56.320 So what are your first thoughts, having been on the ground for about 24 hours?

00:30:00.040 Well, look, one thing that a good lawyer will do, whether you're a prosecutor, defense attorney, if you're a criminal lawyer and you're involved in a criminal case, one thing that's important to do is to go to the scene of the crime so that you can go on the ground, right?

00:30:18.560 You want to see what the crime scene looks like.

00:30:20.780 You want to see the terrain.

00:30:23.400 You want to just visualize how things are located with respect to other things that may be of interest, in this case, the mom's house versus Annie's house.

00:30:31.860 So the one thing that I first noticed when I got out there, besides the giant scrum of, obviously, media personnel that have every inch of this very narrow roadway just kind of jam-packed with their vehicles and their equipment,

00:30:47.660 I noticed that the terrain at the house and around the house would be something that would be very difficult to conduct an investigation in.

00:30:58.840 You've got, as you see there on the screen, you've got a lot of the cacti.

00:31:04.160 You've got shrubs that are, you know, two, three, four foot high.

00:31:07.880 Lots of things that would block the view of the house, the front door, you know, from the roadway and vice versa.

00:31:15.780 If you have the reading camera, it's not, it might see who's standing at the door, but it's not going to see what's out past all that shrubbery.

00:31:25.200 And so I sort of took a walk around and then I looked at the area across the street from the house and I saw more of this, you know, rocky desert, traditional desert type terrain.

00:31:36.900 And it's just, it would be a very difficult, challenging place to do an investigation if your investigation turns on trace evidence.

00:31:45.660 And now we know that some of this does turn on trace evidence.

00:31:49.640 I've also talked to some locals here who parenthetically tell me, you know, they don't have a lot of trust in the sheriff.

00:31:58.360 They tell me that the morale in the department is not so great, that he has leadership problems within the department.

00:32:06.000 And you start putting all this together and it tracks with the things that you just went through with respect to the sheriff.

00:32:14.380 You know, I, on the way out here yesterday on the plane, I sent an email to, to the sheriff's office asking, hey, look, is there anybody there that would be willing to talk with me for five or 10 minutes?

00:32:27.500 Because I would, I was interested in maybe doing an interview and showing the cop's perspective, right?

00:32:33.740 Let them tell me and tell our audience what it's like from the perspective of law enforcement working a case like this where you're, you know, long on basically a mystery and short on leads.

00:32:46.840 And you're up all night, every night working tirelessly trying to solve a case, right?

00:32:53.080 That takes a toll on officers.

00:32:54.920 It takes a toll on their families.

00:32:56.180 It's just very, very grueling and hard work.

00:32:58.460 So I was looking to see if I could get someone to talk about that side of things.

00:33:03.800 I wasn't like looking for additional, you know, information about the case itself.

00:33:08.640 And, you know, I got a very short response back saying the sheriff is the spokesman for this investigation and he is not granting any additional one-on-one interviews.

00:33:20.140 So I guess he's just completely checked out, which makes sense.

00:33:24.060 I mean, he's given some press conferences, Megan, that quite frankly were left me scratching my head.

00:33:30.220 He released the scene way, way too early.

00:33:32.440 You know, you have these blood droplets that were in the driveway and we had people that were able to go and access those within a day or so after this crime occurred.

00:33:44.200 Lots of things about this that just leave me scratching my head.

00:33:47.720 Yeah, they compromised it now because if and when they ever make an arrest, that person's going to say anything that is used against him from the crime scene, they're going to say it's compromised.

00:33:57.860 What do you mean?

00:33:58.380 They had members of the media traipsing through the front porch, the inside or the garage, the outside.

00:34:04.220 How can you trust anything there?

00:34:06.380 There was no chain of custody on the house or the area around it.

00:34:10.120 So this will wind up being a problem for them if they ever find a perpetrator.

00:34:15.200 Phil, the deadline for the ransom has passed officially and it does not appear they paid it, according to TMZ, who has the Bitcoin address.

00:34:24.420 And to me, it now seems clear from Savannah's latest message that all involved have concluded this was a hoax.

00:34:31.720 If she didn't think it was a hoax, she would have paid the $6 million.

00:34:35.120 So is that your understanding or your impression right now?

00:34:38.420 It's my impression now and it's been my impression from the beginning.

00:34:42.320 But since I've been here, it's sort of solidified that in my mind.

00:34:45.600 I think that somebody was obviously trying to extort her or basically con her out of some money, right?

00:34:53.160 But I don't think it's the people who took and probably killed Nancy Guthrie.

00:34:59.940 And can I talk more about the blood droplets that you were just mentioning?

00:35:04.560 You know, there's video of that.

00:35:06.940 We've seen it.

00:35:07.560 I think Brian Enten was out there and he took some videos showing those blood droplets.

00:35:12.860 And I've been talking with others here on the ground and getting a better feel for what that looked like.

00:35:19.280 And, you know, in some of the video that I took that I think maybe you just showed, showed that the house, it's like this semicircular rock driveway.

00:35:27.640 And sort of in the middle between the entrances and exits on that semicircular drive, there's this lots of cacti and shrubbery and other things like I mentioned.

00:35:37.480 And so what you can sort of surmise happened is that there was some struggle in that house that caused her to bleed.

00:35:46.400 Now, it wasn't the kind of bleeding that you would expect if, say, you cut an artery.

00:35:52.020 It was little droplets.

00:35:53.500 More like, think about if you have ever had a bloody nose and you, you know, have blood that's just, gravity's taking it straight down and it's, you know, dropping droplets on the ground.

00:36:03.080 OK, so it wasn't heavy bleeding.

00:36:05.720 And we also know that there's some DNA inside the house.

00:36:08.820 I mean, it could be touch DNA from the cells left behind by whoever, or it could also be blood in there.

00:36:14.100 It stands to reason that if you had blood droplets on the doorway or the doorstep, then you might have blood droplets just inside the door.

00:36:22.720 And then those droplets come out to the top of the semicircular driveway and then they end.

00:36:30.100 And so what that suggests to me is that somebody put her in a vehicle and drove her away from there.

00:36:36.660 And so if that's the case, why didn't we have the search plane up that the sheriff's office had within hours?

00:36:42.520 OK, we know the Border Patrol came in and had some dogs out there, but we don't know much about how the dogs were used and in what capacity to try to track some scent.

00:36:53.060 And, you know, the whole thing just points to a scenario where maybe it was a burglary gone bad.

00:37:01.460 And this is not necessarily inconsistent with Ashley Banfield's reporting either.

00:37:06.440 Something happened with somebody and it was some type of an altercation.

00:37:11.960 Family members can commit burglaries too.

00:37:14.160 So I'm not saying that Ashley Banfield is mistaken about any of that.

00:37:17.560 It's consistent.

00:37:18.180 Or it could be just a random stranger going in, but somebody went in there and it was a burglary.

00:37:24.880 She was assaulted.

00:37:26.060 And I think that they took her out of there so that they didn't leave her behind because there's lots of evidence on a body, whether it's alive or breathing, that can identify the attacker.

00:37:37.660 So there could be – I've seen cases where someone was shot in the head with a small caliber rifle or something and the bullet never leaves and it just makes very small blood droplets, OK?

00:37:50.760 And sometimes the body – I've seen one case where the head was taken to – so that the killer could, you know, prevent law enforcement from finding that bullet and matching it back to some gun.

00:38:02.940 And so there's all sorts of reasons that come to my mind why a killer or an attacker would remove Nancy from that home.

00:38:12.820 And none of them are good.

00:38:14.520 This whole thing feels like it's turned into – I don't want to say a stale case.

00:38:21.180 And hopefully with this new information this afternoon, maybe we will get some kind of breakthrough.

00:38:25.700 But the general feeling around here up until that announcement that you just made about the – maybe a picture of a person of interest or something like that, until that, it's just the feeling here is that this is a stale case and that law enforcement is just at the end of their investigative leads right now.

00:38:45.360 I know what you mean, because stale is how it's feeling.

00:38:50.460 The FBI got in there, guns blazing, set up the command post.

00:38:55.120 They went in Friday night.

00:38:56.900 They researched Nancy Guthrie's house.

00:38:58.720 They seized the car.

00:39:00.080 They went over to Annie Guthrie's house.

00:39:02.300 They looked at that earlier in the week and then again on Saturday night for three hours.

00:39:08.500 Here we are now, Tuesday and nothing.

00:39:13.460 And what – I mean, I'm thrilled that there's a possible, quote, subject here that they have a photo of.

00:39:20.940 But that's it.

00:39:22.440 Like they're not even saying suspect.

00:39:23.960 It's just like what are going to be the facts around this.

00:39:26.540 Hopefully it's a real lead and not just a nothing burger because it doesn't seem like they have much to go on right now.

00:39:33.780 And that's alarming so long after.

00:39:36.160 I know you're pointing out he didn't bring in – the sheriff didn't bring in the special plane that's supposed to fly overhead so they can potentially see a person being removed.

00:39:45.660 He had some sort of a turf war going on with the person flying the plane.

00:39:49.940 And the sheriff has seemed pretty disjointed from the beginning.

00:39:53.740 Say again?

00:39:54.080 You know, yesterday – yeah, the pilot was pulled from the flying duty because of some disagreement with the sheriff, I'm told, and was put on street patrol duty or something along those lines.

00:40:06.720 But nevertheless, we know that the pilot was not flying the plane when that very valuable asset needed to be in the air because the moments, the minutes, and certainly the few hours after a disappearance like this,

00:40:19.580 those are the most critical times to have all hands on deck.

00:40:22.740 And unfortunately, that big piece of it was out of the equation.

00:40:27.320 But yesterday, there was some information from the sheriff's office that there was to be expected some additional law enforcement activity at both of the Guthrie homes.

00:40:40.360 We're talking about Nancy's and Annie's, which is about four or five miles away.

00:40:44.180 And I drove to both of them yesterday.

00:40:45.600 Last night they said there would be.

00:40:46.660 Yeah, they said there would be.

00:40:47.640 But, you know, I was out there until after dark, and I didn't see anything.

00:40:52.860 I mean, I saw one sheriff's deputy that was parked in front of Nancy's house, and he was just sitting in the patrol car there sort of as site security because that's where all the media is.

00:41:01.980 But that wasn't part of the investigation.

00:41:03.640 But we saw no law enforcement activity.

00:41:07.300 And then I checked with people, other members of the media who are here on the ground, have been out there overnight working in shifts.

00:41:14.920 And I checked with several of them before we go on air with your show here.

00:41:19.920 And they all tell me, yeah, nothing happened.

00:41:22.560 We staked the place out all night, and we saw nada.

00:41:25.620 So I don't know what this messaging problem is with the sheriff's office.

00:41:30.560 They need some help.

00:41:32.660 They need some formal media training.

00:41:35.120 They need to do some work on that because their messaging has been, well, it's just been very, very frustrating for the public.

00:41:44.200 It's got to be frustrating for the family of Nancy Guthrie to see the sheriff's office make some kind of statement like this, and then there be nothing.

00:41:54.100 It's like, what are you doing?

00:41:55.220 My loved one is missing.

00:41:56.820 Whether she's alive or dead, we want closure.

00:41:59.400 We want our mom, right?

00:42:00.720 And so you got these messages coming out of the sheriff's office that are just terrible in my opinion.

00:42:05.760 I know.

00:42:07.260 It's very alarming.

00:42:09.080 I wish the FBI had been in charge since day one because it's not their first rodeo when it comes to a kidnapping or even a murder with no body, you know, cover up.

00:42:19.020 And they weren't brought in, and now there are reports that when they were brought in, they were stiff-armed, that the sheriff wasn't exactly happy to see them.

00:42:26.360 He didn't project that on camera.

00:42:27.620 I'll say that, but there are reports out of Fox News today that that was the case.

00:42:31.400 And at a minimum, what this tells me, Phil, is that – I mean, I don't know this, but I'm going to guess that if it's Fox News reporting, they're probably getting their information from the FBI.

00:42:40.740 Yeah.

00:42:40.840 And my supposition is that that means, at a minimum, the FBI is unhappy with the cooperation it's getting from the sheriff and that maybe they're not hot on this case and about to solve it because they don't start pointing fingers at each other like that when things are going well.

00:42:59.420 Well, so some of the folks I've talked to here with the Fox Digital team who have, I think, been the one that broke the news today that the – there was some DNA samples taken for comparison by people who maybe like people who worked on the pool, maybe gardeners, people who were hired to work around the home in some capacity.

00:43:21.880 And so that information, I suspect, if I had to guess, is probably coming from the FBI because – or it could be someone very frustrated within the Pima County Sheriff's Office.

00:43:33.580 But the thing about the DNA comparisons, it's important to remember, if someone works at that house, depending on what exactly their job is, it may not be unusual or unexpected to find their touch DNA inside the home.

00:43:52.180 But now if it's someone like the pool guy –

00:43:54.260 Now, if it's a landscaper and the DNA is on the mattress, different story.

00:43:58.560 That's a different story, right.

00:43:59.340 The context is key.

00:44:00.720 But there's also people, family members, right?

00:44:03.840 You would expect family members to have their DNA present in her house. 0.99

00:44:08.380 So just because you find someone's DNA in and of itself is not necessarily a clue that might point to you as a suspect.

00:44:16.620 You've got to use the whole context and figure out is this where you would expect this person's DNA to be or not.

00:44:23.540 And if the answer is no, then you've got to start working on trying to rule them out if you can as a suspect.

00:44:30.720 Mm-hmm.

00:44:31.780 Yeah.

00:44:32.700 Phil, thank you.

00:44:33.800 We'll check back in with you tomorrow.

00:44:35.740 And good luck in the meantime getting somebody to talk.

00:44:38.520 I want to tell the audience that that sheriff did give an interview on camera to – off camera to an Arizona outlet called Green Valley News.

00:44:47.880 And it was on Monday and has a message to his detractors in here.

00:44:52.960 This is a quote.

00:44:54.000 They can question the quality of the investigation.

00:44:56.260 That's their right.

00:44:57.160 But I would tell them this.

00:44:58.280 They haven't a clue what this investigation has entailed.

00:45:00.940 They don't know all the efforts we put into it.

00:45:02.820 They also don't know that over the last five years, this team has close to a 100% solve rate when it comes to homicides.

00:45:09.720 And it is currently going through thousands of pieces of evidence and following up on 3,000 tips and counting.

00:45:16.860 Now, you want to get picky that the sheriff speaks funny or talks off the cuff, or you can call him a buffoon or Barney Fife or whatever you want.

00:45:24.240 To call him, the haters are going to hate.

00:45:26.560 But my local media, you included, know me.

00:45:29.500 You know what I'm about, and you know I've always been a pretty much open book.

00:45:33.380 You ask me a question, I'm going to answer it.

00:45:35.440 That's just the way it is.

00:45:36.420 Well, we appreciate that the book is open, Sheriff.

00:45:39.120 We would really love for it to be correct and reliable and trustworthy.

00:45:44.620 That's personally where this show has taken issue with you.

00:45:48.180 We continue to hope that it's better than it seems.

00:45:52.900 And we really hope that this is more like an Idaho situation when it comes to solving it, where the front burner looks a mess, but the back burners are firing and well on their way to actually doing the job.

00:46:06.420 And the FBI is there to help.

00:46:08.460 They've got a lot of resources that you don't.

00:46:10.320 We certainly do hope you're taking advantage of that.

00:46:13.000 And speaking of the FBI, we're back now with a very talented 25-year veteran of the FBI on what she's gleaning from the latest facts,

00:46:24.960 including I want to talk to her about, in particular, why they searched the sister's home, Annie Guthrie's home on Saturday night, not just at night.

00:46:38.680 We know it happened from 7.30 to 10.30, right?

00:46:40.860 But with the lights off.

00:46:44.080 I went back and looked at that tape.

00:46:46.880 It's not just that they searched it at 7.30 to 10.30.

00:46:49.480 It's that they kept the lights off.

00:46:51.700 Why would they keep the lights off when they were searching the sister's house?

00:46:55.920 I'll ask our next guest in just a minute.

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00:49:00.180 For what matters most.

00:49:05.800 For more on the search for Nancy Guthrie,

00:49:07.860 we want to bring in retired FBI agent Maureen O'Connell,

00:49:10.560 a 25-year veteran of the Bureau who worked on the evidence response team.

00:49:15.500 She's now the president and CEO of Maureen O'Connell and Associates,

00:49:18.980 a company that provides security and investigative services.

00:49:22.380 Maureen, welcome.

00:49:23.140 So good to have you.

00:49:24.100 So let's just start with that question that I left in the air before the break,

00:49:29.740 which is they went back to Annie Guthrie's house on Saturday night,

00:49:34.580 the sister and brother-in-law's house of Savannah's.

00:49:37.660 And they went at 730 to 1030, according to most reports.

00:49:42.340 It was a three-hour stint.

00:49:44.340 Even in Arizona this time of year, that's dark.

00:49:47.460 That is nighttime.

00:49:48.320 And the video, let's play it.

00:49:52.120 I think it's a soundbite, so standby.

00:49:54.080 Okay, look at it.

00:49:54.780 So, yeah, it's video.

00:49:56.000 It's black inside the house, punctuated by flashes of light,

00:50:02.220 which is obviously a flashlight and or a camera with flash photography going off.

00:50:08.660 But you tell me why, Maureen, you go at night.

00:50:13.760 Okay, fine.

00:50:14.480 You don't turn on the lights inside the home.

00:50:17.800 Right.

00:50:18.480 And I mean, before we even get into what they were doing there late at night,

00:50:23.540 the fact of the matter is, in addition to being on the evidence response team,

00:50:27.380 I was a street agent essentially my whole career working gangs and narcotics.

00:50:31.420 So I've done my share of rollback warrants on locations where we've done a prior warrant

00:50:38.380 or we've gleaned more information or whatever and freshened up that warrant.

00:50:42.480 But I have never, ever even heard of going back to a location three or four times on rollback warrants.

00:50:50.240 So this has to be either the development of brand new information.

00:50:56.820 But these were not FBI people that were in there.

00:50:59.640 Those were sheriff deputies.

00:51:01.000 They didn't bring in a lot of gear.

00:51:03.240 So obviously you and I know that we're on the outside.

00:51:05.920 We're looking in.

00:51:06.620 But what would I be doing if I were on the inside like that?

00:51:10.140 Two things.

00:51:10.980 I'd be looking for blood or I'd be looking for hair and fibers with oblique lighting,

00:51:16.360 which is flashlights.

00:51:17.320 And by oblique lighting, I mean, instead of holding a flashlight this where I'm looking

00:51:23.360 down at the ground, I'm having it parallel with the ground.

00:51:27.200 So you can see hairs, fibers, and also pro tip, you can find your jewelry in a nanosecond

00:51:34.880 when you do stuff like that.

00:51:37.020 So in my opinion, it was either hairs and fibers or they were trying to do some kind of blood,

00:51:45.080 looking for blood, but with blood, you're bringing in the luminol and the kits and the

00:51:49.120 lighting and they didn't bring any of that in.

00:51:52.040 So it would have been much more elaborate.

00:51:54.960 And it would have been heavier.

00:51:56.340 They did bring in one table and one table is indicative of, hey, I need a clean place

00:52:01.320 to set my gear down so it doesn't get contaminated.

00:52:04.240 Because and the tables we use are ones that you can bleach or, you know, you have to sterilize

00:52:10.000 them when you're done.

00:52:10.800 And a big part of being on any type of an evening.

00:52:13.520 Well, stand by, because I want to ask you about that.

00:52:15.640 There was a debate whether it was a table or whether it was like an evidence kit.

00:52:19.720 And then there was speculation about what kind of kit.

00:52:22.400 Apologies to go right to a break, but we are, that's the kind of show it is.

00:52:25.720 It's a jam-packed one today.

00:52:26.760 We're right back with Maureen after this quick break.

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00:53:42.320 We are back with Maureen O'Connell, formerly 25 years of the FBI.

00:53:47.900 These are stunning, Maureen.

00:53:50.320 As we went to break, the FBI released four pictures of a man clearly outside of Nancy Guthrie's

00:54:00.740 front door in a ski mask, in leather gloves, wearing a backpack, and they are terrifying.

00:54:10.120 All I can think looking at these is, oh my God, this poor 84-year-old woman saw this man

00:54:15.280 in her bedroom shortly after this.

00:54:17.720 What they show for the listening audience is the man clearly at Nancy's house.

00:54:21.820 He's wearing, as I said, a ski mask, the kind that covers everything on your face except

00:54:26.240 for your eyes and your mouth.

00:54:29.720 And he has like large, he looks white.

00:54:32.820 He's got very round, large eyes.

00:54:35.960 You cannot tell.

00:54:37.600 In the one picture, it looks like he might have facial hair, but I can't be sure.

00:54:42.660 He does.

00:54:43.560 Yeah.

00:54:43.720 On the last, in the last photo, Megan, yeah.

00:54:46.600 Okay.

00:54:48.820 Yeah, you're right.

00:54:49.640 The last photo shows some facial hair there.

00:54:51.980 And you can see him, for the listening audience, it appears ripping out the nest camera.

00:54:59.880 It looks like he's looking right into the camera that is obviously on her front door.

00:55:04.660 There's one picture there, Maureen, that's confusing because it looks almost like vegetation

00:55:09.420 he's holding.

00:55:10.500 Yeah, it's probably a bird's nest.

00:55:11.320 These are black and white photos.

00:55:12.320 It's probably a bird's nest that was behind the nest camera.

00:55:16.320 And if you recall, Megan, this looks like the same vegetation that we saw in the blood

00:55:21.480 droplets on the porch.

00:55:23.300 So apparently, the blood that ended up on the front porch ended up on top of this or around

00:55:32.620 this vegetation.

00:55:34.160 Do you remember seeing that vegetation?

00:55:35.400 If you play that video again, that's exactly what we're going to see.

00:55:39.700 But the clothing in here is-

00:55:42.120 Okay, we're looking at some of the blood here.

00:55:43.920 Yep.

00:55:44.460 This is the Brian Enten video of the blood droplets.

00:55:46.780 See that vegetation right there?

00:55:48.960 That's from a bird.

00:55:50.360 Yes, yes.

00:55:50.440 I bet a bird made a bird's nest there.

00:55:53.600 And we can see him in one of the shots ripping it.

00:55:57.220 It looks, I mean, it's clear as day, frankly, ripping it out from where the nest cam is.

00:56:01.880 And it looks like, almost like in another picture, like he's punching, punching it.

00:56:08.320 Maureen, can you see, so with his right hand, so I think we know he's right-handed, he's

00:56:13.440 punching the nest cam or so it would look.

00:56:15.680 Yep.

00:56:15.780 And he, in the left hand, they're both gloved in black gloves, he's holding something.

00:56:22.140 But I can't, I can't make out what it is.

00:56:25.420 It looks like it's got a white handle to it.

00:56:28.420 Looks almost like the nest camera.

00:56:29.280 I'm trying to see whether it looks like a-

00:56:30.460 It looks almost like the actual nest camera.

00:56:33.120 And my guess is, yeah, he's punching with his right arm, but when he's grabbing the vegetation,

00:56:40.520 that's with his left arm.

00:56:43.100 That's true.

00:56:43.680 So he could be a left-

00:56:44.860 And here's-

00:56:45.580 Okay, go ahead.

00:56:47.060 Here's the statement from the FBI just released by Kash Patel, new images in the search for

00:56:51.140 Nancy Guthrie.

00:56:52.160 Over the last eight days, the FBI and Pima County Sheriff's Department have been working

00:56:56.080 closely with our private sector partners to continue to recover any images or video footage

00:57:01.180 from Nancy Guthrie's home that may have been lost, corrupted, or inaccessible due to a

00:57:06.360 variety of factors, including the removal of recording devices.

00:57:10.260 The video was recovered from residual data located in back-end systems.

00:57:17.720 Working with our partners, as of this morning, law enforcement has uncovered these previously

00:57:22.140 inaccessible new images showing an armed individual, he says he's armed, appearing to have tampered

00:57:28.260 with the camera at Nancy Guthrie's front door the morning of her disappearance.

00:57:32.220 Anyone with information, please contact 1-800-CALL-FBI, 1-800-CALL-FBI, and now the sheriff has released

00:57:40.140 an identical statement.

00:57:41.620 So he says it was recovered from residual data located in back-end systems.

00:57:46.360 What does that mean to you, Maureen?

00:57:47.400 That means that stuff that, for example, when you get that alert on your phone that says we've

00:57:55.280 detected someone at your home or something, even if you don't have a subscription, the company should

00:58:04.180 have a thumbnail of those images, and they should be able to get them.

00:58:10.400 It was really surprising when I heard that they didn't have any images, because I have

00:58:15.920 a guy on my team that is a world-class expert, I mean, scary, he's so good, and he told me

00:58:22.940 that he's shocked that they weren't able to do that.

00:58:25.900 So my guess is the FBI was able to do this, because this is rather sophisticated.

00:58:31.720 But so they have to store that type of an image when they put it out as a thumbnail.

00:58:39.900 So if nothing else, it's on their system, not on Nancy's, if that makes any sense.

00:58:45.480 And I think they're saying armed.

00:58:46.500 Yes, so in other words, they were captured in the moments before he tore down the ring

00:58:50.640 camera or the Nest camera, and the Nest camera might have transmitted something back to the

00:58:55.820 system?

00:58:56.620 Or they hold it on their system.

00:58:58.500 But I think why they're saying armed is, if you look at this first image, which I didn't

00:59:04.480 know what he was holding at first, but I'm looking at it now, that's a holstered weapon

00:59:08.140 in what we would call a concealed carry holster.

00:59:13.360 It's supposed to be on the inside of your pants, but it looks like he's got it somehow

00:59:17.140 on the, maybe it's, maybe, I don't know how he has it attached to the front of his pants,

00:59:24.240 but I think that's what that is.

00:59:25.820 That is a, that is a weapon.

00:59:28.400 Yep.

00:59:29.380 Is that a gun?

00:59:30.420 It is a gun.

00:59:31.340 And if, you know, when I, when I come on again, I can, or I can run and grab a concealed, I

00:59:37.840 have one that looks almost exactly like that.

00:59:40.400 And it's made of this like rubbery kind of material so that if you put it inside your,

00:59:45.580 your, your pants, inside your waistband, it sticks a little bit to your skin and a little

00:59:51.340 bit to your clothing and that's exactly what that looks like to me.

00:59:55.820 That's what that is.

00:59:56.500 That's, he's, he's got a holstered weapon right there.

00:59:59.100 I mean, this, this is so terrifying to me.

01:00:02.160 I, you're, you're a lifelong law enforcement.

01:00:05.300 I don't know how this grabs you, but this is so terrifying to me.

01:00:07.700 Well, this is how this.

01:00:08.400 Think of this large man with this, with this face mask and a gun and a backpack, like cook

01:00:14.920 and the gloves showing, this is every woman's worst nightmare to wake up to this. 0.55

01:00:19.480 Nevermind at 84 years old.

01:00:21.260 Absolutely.

01:00:22.220 The other thing I want to say is when I've worked a lot of kidnappings on the evidence

01:00:28.100 response team, mainly of children, unfortunately.

01:00:30.180 But the one question you want to ask yourself is, does the perpetrator have a proclivity or

01:00:37.660 a predisposition to violence?

01:00:40.760 And in this case, here's a man with a gun on the front porch and 41 minutes later, we've

01:00:46.360 got blood on the front porch.

01:00:48.020 So the answer is yes.

01:00:51.320 And that is not good for anyone.

01:00:55.140 The, the other thing I, I don't know.

01:00:58.340 I mean, everybody listening to this who can't see the images is of course, wondering, is

01:01:03.380 it, is it the brother-in-law?

01:01:04.420 Because that's the only one we've heard mentioned.

01:01:06.780 Don't mean to condemn this, this man because we have nothing other than Ashley Banfield's

01:01:12.280 reporting from a senior law enforcement officer that she trusts implicitly that she says is

01:01:17.400 impeccably sourced, um, that he right now may be the prime suspect as of last, uh, Tuesday

01:01:25.560 right now may be the prime suspect.

01:01:28.120 Okay.

01:01:28.400 So that's been one week ago.

01:01:30.320 I will tell you, I don't know other than it does indeed appear that he has dark facial

01:01:34.100 hair because in that one circle around the mouth, you can see hair above the top lip and

01:01:39.440 you can see black hair under the bottom lip.

01:01:41.200 But here's what I do want to say, Maureen, you and I might not be able to determine who

01:01:46.980 that is from looking at it, but if you're married to him, you would.

01:01:51.880 Absolutely.

01:01:52.560 You look at the shoes.

01:01:53.720 There's so much information here.

01:01:55.140 First of all, he's wearing rather distinctive clothing.

01:01:58.180 He's not wearing all black.

01:02:00.220 All black would be a lot more difficult to decipher what he's wearing. 0.99

01:02:04.280 He looks like his feet may be a little bit shorter, but the bureau can determine or law

01:02:09.180 enforcement can determine exactly how tall this person is based on this because they're

01:02:13.400 going to, there's, I'm sure you can do it easier with AI, but Jim Fitzgerald can tell

01:02:18.500 you too, that they can, you know, they're going to count those bricks and the distance

01:02:23.020 he is and where he's standing on the mat.

01:02:24.740 They're going to reenact that.

01:02:25.960 And I'm sure Jim's been involved in a lot of cases where they've determined how tall

01:02:30.740 he is, but that clothing is very distinctive.

01:02:33.560 Speak of the devil.

01:02:35.880 We called Jim when this news broke and asked him to join us.

01:02:38.660 And here he is, Jim Fitzgerald.

01:02:40.200 Jim, these pictures are shocking.

01:02:41.720 Your reaction to this breaking news.

01:02:43.520 Yeah, I'm literally looking at it for the first time in the last few minutes.

01:02:47.240 And this is amazing.

01:02:49.040 And my good friend, Maureen, knows her stuff as well as anyone.

01:02:52.660 She's absolutely right.

01:02:54.080 They're going to have all kinds of photo experts at breaking this down.

01:02:57.380 And we only have a black and white image here.

01:03:00.180 I'm not sure possibly there's color somewhere else, at least what I'm looking at.

01:03:03.080 But this guy came, he came ready for bear.

01:03:05.880 He's got his, his abduction kit with him and some kind of a backpack.

01:03:10.420 I can't exactly see what it is, but it looks like he has something on his back.

01:03:14.260 Of course, wearing gloves, wearing face masks, which tells us something now.

01:03:18.100 We thought all along that the person who did this may have known there was no subscription

01:03:23.300 service.

01:03:25.340 And, and that's why they didn't have to worry about it.

01:03:28.360 But this guy didn't want to take that chance and, and wore the full mask here that could

01:03:34.580 cover almost all of his face.

01:03:36.440 But as Maureen was saying, as I just signed on here, you can see some features through

01:03:40.160 there.

01:03:40.600 And that's, that's, that's a big clue.

01:03:42.780 Shoes, pants, sons.

01:03:43.820 Megan, you mentioned his wife, you know, his, his buddies, his, his siblings, someone, especially

01:03:50.080 with this award out there, this changes the entire paradigm of this investigation.

01:03:54.420 It does nothing.

01:03:55.520 I, we still don't know if this guy's the kidnapper looking for money, meaning the for profit part

01:04:00.260 of this.

01:04:00.560 Uh, we don't know if that's the person sending these things, but this person at least is

01:04:04.440 the abductor.

01:04:05.180 And that's where we have to start right now.

01:04:07.800 That's huge, huge, huge, huge, such a huge investigative break that they were able to

01:04:12.780 recover these images.

01:04:13.700 All I can think Maureen is this is how Tyler Robinson was apprehended.

01:04:18.940 They, they got an image of him from the stairwell going up to the roof of Charlie Kirk's murder.

01:04:24.980 And he wasn't identifiable.

01:04:28.420 He too tried to disguise himself except to people who knew him.

01:04:32.120 So if this guy's married or has buddies or colleagues, if he works, you know, it's going

01:04:39.500 to be a lot like, if this were my husband, I would know if, if this were, you know, my executive

01:04:44.680 producer, I would know, I'd know the build, I'd know the general facial look like there, he's

01:04:49.440 not as masked as he thinks.

01:04:51.060 And that initial stance in that first photo is very distinctive.

01:04:54.980 Um, to me, uh, what I would be doing is hopefully, uh, the law enforcement initially on scene

01:05:03.320 and hopefully the FBI ERT team did a bunch of dumpster diving or checked a bunch of trash

01:05:09.020 or at least, uh, made notations as to when and where the trash pickups were and what quadrant

01:05:15.120 of the, um, of the, uh, dump they went to so that they can start searching because, or

01:05:21.800 even the trash at that circle K where there, there was some activity initially, um, when, uh, that

01:05:28.640 night, I think someone was saying that there was some activity at that circle K location.

01:05:33.420 Yes.

01:05:33.700 I would also check that.

01:05:34.960 And they went, the cops went there and asked for a surveillance video from the circle K,

01:05:38.600 the circle K employees confirmed that to the media.

01:05:40.500 Right. 0.61

01:05:40.740 But I always go for the, I always go to the trash.

01:05:43.300 I, I spent a lot of time in dumpsters and it's, it's horrifying in some ways, but you

01:05:48.460 get a lot of really, really great information.

01:05:51.840 I'll bet.

01:05:52.780 So when you look at this, when you look at this picture, tell me what, like as a law

01:05:57.420 enforcement person, Jim, what, what are the cops looking at on him?

01:06:00.260 They're like, I see a backpack that there's something odd about how the backpack appears

01:06:05.440 around his shoulders.

01:06:06.340 I'm not sure what I'm seeing there.

01:06:07.600 It's like, there's the black strap, but then there's something underneath it.

01:06:10.300 Like maybe it's a pad and there's a couple of reflective stripes maybe at the top.

01:06:15.940 I'm not sure, but is all that just distinctive wear for the backpack and, or the sweatshirt

01:06:19.720 that the cops are going to try to figure out the maker of perhaps like, what do you, what

01:06:23.980 do you do with that information?

01:06:25.240 Well, I'm looking at this initially, um, uh, Megan as a behavioralist and what this tells

01:06:30.920 me profiler and what this tells me is this, and we've said this early on, I certainly did.

01:06:36.260 The subductor was mission oriented.

01:06:38.640 This guy wasn't just drunk walking down the street and happened to see a house, you

01:06:43.160 know, a car drive.

01:06:44.000 He's driving by the car.

01:06:45.000 Oh, let's check this place out.

01:06:46.140 This guy was planned.

01:06:48.100 This, this event was planned.

01:06:49.540 He was very well set up, ready to do this.

01:06:52.040 And, um, uh, and he's carrying on his back.

01:06:55.020 We call them rape kits. 1.00

01:06:56.420 We call them kill kits. 0.99

01:06:57.820 This is his, I hate to say it.

01:07:00.100 It could be one of those, but certainly his abduction kit.

01:07:02.740 He has in the back handcuffs, uh, uh, you know, electrical ties, duct tape.

01:07:07.660 He has all kinds of material in there, pepper spray.

01:07:10.140 Who knows what he's carrying in there to help out his cause, uh, in completing this mission.

01:07:14.860 So this tells us so much more, not random, uh, planned, uh, who exactly the person is.

01:07:20.560 But yeah, to go back to your original question, uh, they have all kinds of databases set up

01:07:25.280 that the bureau, uh, in terms of looking at different products and brands, uh, Maureen

01:07:30.040 said shoes, sneakers, whatever they are.

01:07:31.840 I can't tell here necessarily, but they're going to try to trace every one of these items

01:07:36.020 of clothing.

01:07:37.220 Um, uh, whether this guy decides to keep them.

01:07:39.800 There's been some of these people that are cheapskates, don't want to get rid of their

01:07:43.100 stuff or decides it was already disposed of, or now will be disposed of that this, uh,

01:07:47.700 picture came out.

01:07:48.660 He may have caught a whole week went by and he caught the biggest break in the world, including

01:07:52.660 that some people from Eastern Europe decided to do a kidnapping.

01:07:55.980 We don't know that for a fact.

01:07:57.500 Yes.

01:07:58.160 And he said, Oh man, wow.

01:07:59.820 I am so lucky here.

01:08:01.340 Uh, and again, I can a hundred percent rule out this guy that also sends some, you know,

01:08:07.480 emails looking for money, but at the same time, I think I'm leaning towards there being

01:08:11.900 separate incidents, uh, one, the opportunist that the latter part of it, but this is a big

01:08:16.480 clue here.

01:08:17.180 And, and does anyone here know, Megan or Maureen, is this from the nest camera that we thought

01:08:23.140 had no subscription?

01:08:24.580 It's gotta be.

01:08:25.440 Yeah.

01:08:25.700 It's, it's, yes, it's got any, here's, here's more from director cash Pichel.

01:08:29.080 I just, it's just coming in.

01:08:30.020 There's video videos coming in.

01:08:32.180 We're going to put it on the board.

01:08:33.380 Uh, additional, this is from cash posted on X additional recovered images from the

01:08:38.420 same camera at Nancy Guthrie's front door.

01:08:41.320 So it's, it is the nest cam the morning of her disappearance, including two videos of

01:08:45.620 the individual, anyone with information, please contact 1-800-CALL-FBI.

01:08:49.900 Um, okay.

01:08:50.520 So here's, here are the new images he just sent in.

01:08:52.520 Here's the person as he approaches the door, you can see he's holding, he's got one hand

01:08:58.220 close to his front pocket.

01:09:00.220 Here's another one is he's approaching the scene from a little farther away.

01:09:04.740 You can see he's kind of like, he's, I want to say he's portly.

01:09:09.380 Yeah.

01:09:09.700 Uh, he's definitely not.

01:09:11.680 Yeah.

01:09:12.180 Yeah.

01:09:12.440 He's not slim.

01:09:13.620 He, I wouldn't describe him as lanky.

01:09:15.400 He's not incredibly tall.

01:09:17.300 I'm sure the FBI can figure out how tall he is, but he looks six feet or under to me.

01:09:23.180 I don't know.

01:09:23.500 I'm not good at guessing these things, but here he is now approaching.

01:09:26.460 There's video, you guys look at this of him approaching the nest cam.

01:09:30.960 Hold on.

01:09:31.500 We're, we're getting it queued up.

01:09:32.660 I don't know if you guys can see it on your phone, but he walks up slowly.

01:09:35.260 He takes his right hand, the, the side, like the, where your pinky knuckle is.

01:09:39.860 And he starts kind of like, it looks like he's banging it.

01:09:43.360 He's trying to get the, not hard though.

01:09:45.720 Um, then he turns around.

01:09:48.920 Now I can see the back of the backpack.

01:09:50.100 This is going to be very helpful.

01:09:51.120 They're going to be able to see what brand this is.

01:09:52.760 He walks away.

01:09:54.040 He's walking out toward, holy cow.

01:09:57.360 What did he just do?

01:09:58.100 He picked up, he picked up vegetation.

01:10:02.680 Maureen, he picked up vegetation.

01:10:04.260 He walked, he, he knocked it, trying to knock the nest camera off.

01:10:08.840 I'm getting this queued up.

01:10:10.700 It appears he failed.

01:10:12.000 He's not really banging it hard.

01:10:13.500 It's just almost gentle.

01:10:14.260 He turns around, he bends down, he's looking down.

01:10:17.840 He walks to the archway that leads you out of, off of her patio to the, uh, you know,

01:10:22.520 exterior.

01:10:23.520 He picks up vegetation from the ground and then it flashes and you don't, and that's

01:10:31.380 the end of that, that frame.

01:10:32.900 But okay, now, now there's another frame.

01:10:34.540 Now he's got the vegetation in his hand.

01:10:36.120 He's using it, Maureen.

01:10:37.340 He's using it.

01:10:39.420 It's like now it's stuck.

01:10:41.000 Maybe it's his camouflage.

01:10:42.020 He's, it seems like he's sticking it into the camera lens here.

01:10:46.400 We've got one.

01:10:47.040 Let's play it.

01:10:48.400 Okay.

01:10:48.760 This is the one, the second one where it looks like he's shoving it.

01:10:51.200 Now he's got the vegetation in his hand and it looks like he's shoving it into the lens.

01:10:57.740 Maybe he doesn't think he can get the nest camera down.

01:11:00.120 Yeah, maybe he thought it was hardwired.

01:11:01.960 So plan B is to camouflage.

01:11:02.640 He thought it was hardwired.

01:11:04.120 So he thought he could just obscure the lens, but then realized he couldn't.

01:11:09.500 That makes sense.

01:11:11.340 Because the previous one, hold on, we'll get it for you, is a treasure trove, you guys.

01:11:16.500 It's a treasure trove.

01:11:17.500 And also, here's the one.

01:11:20.200 Okay.

01:11:20.400 Here's the one that I was trying to describe.

01:11:22.400 He's walking up.

01:11:24.520 Look at him with a gloved hand.

01:11:27.240 Four, five, like five gentle taps.

01:11:30.740 He's covering the ring, the nest camera, like the top of it.

01:11:34.660 Another two taps.

01:11:36.180 He turns his back.

01:11:37.000 Look how packed that backpack is.

01:11:38.980 He's ready for bear, but I guess he didn't bring duct tape or something with him.

01:11:42.700 But maybe he just wants to do it.

01:11:43.780 He doesn't want to do it out in front of the house yet.

01:11:46.000 So he's trying to pick up something very convenient to him.

01:11:49.600 Oh, he went back and picked up the vegetation.

01:11:52.860 Well, yes.

01:11:53.380 Did he go back for the gun?

01:11:54.340 And now we re-looped it.

01:11:55.520 Did he go back for the gun?

01:11:56.740 No.

01:11:57.940 Well, no, I think he went back for the vegetation.

01:12:00.520 Because if you watch this, now I've had the advantage of seeing a couple more times.

01:12:03.160 Look, so he's bending over.

01:12:04.060 So now look, Maureen, he's going to the back.

01:12:05.500 He bends down.

01:12:06.180 He picks something up in his hand.

01:12:07.600 And he comes back.

01:12:10.200 Hold on.

01:12:10.640 He's going to walk back to the camera here.

01:12:16.080 Hold on.

01:12:16.600 I just want to make sure.

01:12:17.680 Are you guys playing the same one that I have on my phone?

01:12:20.040 Because the one that I have on my phone, hold on.

01:12:22.540 No, no, hold on.

01:12:23.220 Let me just make sure.

01:12:23.940 The one I have on my phone.

01:12:24.700 He's got something in his hand.

01:12:26.240 It is the vegetation.

01:12:27.420 You can see it.

01:12:28.200 Okay.

01:12:29.380 Okay.

01:12:29.760 So I'm not sure if you guys can see the very last frame.

01:12:32.640 But Maureen, he grabs the vegetation.

01:12:34.540 You can see it's like all the leaves.

01:12:36.040 At the very last shot of that reel we just played where you can see his backpack stuffed to the brink with materials.

01:12:43.380 And then the next frame the FBI sent is of the vegetation getting, like, shoved into the camera.

01:12:50.520 And Savannah now is posting the pictures on her Instagram, too, with the following message.

01:12:56.100 It reads, we believe she is still alive.

01:13:01.880 Bring her home. 0.82

01:13:03.180 Anyone with information, please contact 1-800-CALL-FBI.

01:13:07.540 Oh, my God.

01:13:08.240 I mean, I certainly hope that's true.

01:13:09.820 The determined handedness of him.

01:13:11.780 It looks like he's holding things in the right and left hand.

01:13:14.200 Obviously, right hand, 90% of the population.

01:13:16.820 Left hander would narrow down that suspect pool.

01:13:19.380 But we can't really tell that so far.

01:13:22.540 Fitz, I would guess right handed, even though I see him using both hands.

01:13:26.320 But I would guess right handed for one reason.

01:13:28.300 And that's the orientation of the weapon in his waistband.

01:13:32.160 Whoa, whoa.

01:13:32.640 I didn't even see the weapon.

01:13:34.100 Oh.

01:13:34.320 Yeah, you weren't here when we went over that.

01:13:37.700 Please show me.

01:13:38.520 In the still shots, Jim, in the still shots.

01:13:41.360 Show Jim the still shots, you guys, where you can see, like, the first shot of the still shots.

01:13:46.160 Megan, should I run and get my holster to show you?

01:13:49.020 Yeah, could you?

01:13:49.640 Yeah, stand by.

01:13:50.100 Could you, Maureen?

01:13:50.720 Stand by.

01:13:51.300 You do that, and I'll talk to Jim.

01:13:52.700 Yeah.

01:13:53.180 What Maureen said here, Jim, if you look at it, I don't know if you can, I'm not sure if we can zoom in on it, but on your phone, you certainly could. 0.81

01:13:59.560 But it looks, it's right where his crotch is, in front of his crotch. 0.59

01:14:04.420 And it's white with a black outline. 0.90

01:14:07.620 And we're getting a closer up shot, so you can see.

01:14:11.440 Here, too, though, you can see it, where he's punching the ring cam.

01:14:15.200 Can you see it down below Jim with his other hand?

01:14:16.960 Yeah, yeah.

01:14:16.980 It's an unusual place.

01:14:19.000 Seems an unusual place.

01:14:20.260 And Maureen was saying.

01:14:21.300 It's a holster.

01:14:22.100 Well, Maureen was saying she thinks it's a holster that would normally go on the inside of your pants that kind of sticks to your leg more.

01:14:27.680 Okay.

01:14:28.000 And the reason we first noticed it is because Kash Patel's tweet says he's armed.

01:14:32.040 And so we started looking for where.

01:14:36.420 And Maureen said that's, she thinks that's the weapon.

01:14:38.880 It's white.

01:14:40.060 It's got a black outline.

01:14:41.600 It definitely has something black coming out the top of it, which looks consistent with a gun, though.

01:14:47.760 Yeah, now that's a much clearer picture.

01:14:49.460 I think the first time I've seen this picture that you have up there now, that is clearly a weapon that was blown up.

01:14:55.840 You can tell make and model most likely.

01:14:58.060 And, yeah, that would definitely lean towards right-handed if the holster is above the right leg there, which, again, 90% of the population.

01:15:06.880 But still interesting to know.

01:15:09.140 Again, even more mission-oriented than I thought, including everything in that, almost like a parachute that's packed in there.

01:15:16.580 Of course it's not.

01:15:17.480 But he has plenty of stuff in that backpack, which would enable him to carry through with any contingency today or that night when things went wrong.

01:15:27.340 Let's get a still shot of that backpack, you guys, so we can take a closer look at it.

01:15:31.340 Jim, we do know a couple of, we don't know who this is, but we do know a couple of things here.

01:15:36.140 We know for sure Nancy Guthrie did not wander off.

01:15:40.700 No.

01:15:41.160 I mean, that theory's dead.

01:15:42.840 We thought it was dead anyway because we knew the Nest cameras were destroyed and taken.

01:15:46.340 So, whatever.

01:15:47.440 We said that at the top of the show.

01:15:48.480 We know that's true now.

01:15:49.380 She did not wander off.

01:15:51.000 She was taken.

01:15:52.580 She was taken by a man, at least one man.

01:15:56.980 By the way, Sheriff, this is just in from the Sheriff's office.

01:16:01.020 There are no press briefings planned at this time.

01:16:02.600 Sheriff Nanos is not conducting one-on-one interviews.

01:16:04.720 Same message he's been giving.

01:16:05.900 So, he's not updating us based on this new information that's going to have to come from the FBI, if anybody.

01:16:12.780 So, we know that Nancy Guthrie did not wander off.

01:16:15.320 We know she was taken.

01:16:16.740 She was abducted.

01:16:17.840 We don't know that it was a kidnapping.

01:16:20.460 We don't know that this person had anything to do whatsoever with the Bitcoin demands or any other demands.

01:16:25.420 We believe the family's been outspoken about any and all demands they've received.

01:16:30.220 That there's not a secret other demand that this person may have made.

01:16:33.820 We don't know what the motive is.

01:16:35.260 He went in there, meaning business, armed.

01:16:40.000 We know he hurt Nancy in some way.

01:16:42.260 And we know he got her out of there.

01:16:44.480 Can we see, I didn't even look to see whether there's any shot of a vehicle in the back.

01:16:50.300 You can see clear as day her mailbox down the lane.

01:16:55.600 I don't actually, I actually don't know the property well enough to know, is that her driveway on the other side of that black mailbox?

01:17:03.980 Like, is her driveway circular?

01:17:06.780 Yes.

01:17:07.180 Leading to a straightaway gravel?

01:17:09.040 Yes.

01:17:10.200 Okay.

01:17:10.920 So then there's no car visible in this shot, at least.

01:17:16.420 That I can say.

01:17:17.360 I don't see a car visible in the shot at all.

01:17:21.060 Doesn't mean he didn't drive one.

01:17:23.940 I don't know how the hell he got a 150-pound woman out of there who could barely move if he didn't have a car. 1.00

01:17:29.600 Um, but that's kind of good news.

01:17:33.480 Well, I guess it's not great news because it'd be better if we had images of the car in this shot.

01:17:37.300 But maybe it was closer to the road.

01:17:40.000 Maybe they have a better idea of what vantage point to look from to find any potential vantage point on this.

01:17:48.120 But this looks like a treasure trove of new information, Maureen.

01:17:51.140 Tell us about your gun.

01:17:52.060 Treasure pal.

01:17:52.340 Well, my husband has the longer one, but here's my smaller Glock.

01:17:57.220 And see, this is the holster I'm talking about.

01:18:01.580 It's tacky on the exterior, but the other one we have does have that longer nose for a longer barreled handgun.

01:18:10.740 So I don't, I can't tell what kind of gun that is from there, but see how it goes a lot longer?

01:18:16.000 That's a longer, and actually the back of that does look like a Glock.

01:18:19.800 Let me, you think they're going to be able to tell what kind of gun it is?

01:18:24.100 Do you think like law enforcement is going to have that figured out?

01:18:26.800 Yeah, pretty close.

01:18:27.880 They'll be able to tell.

01:18:28.680 It's clearly a semi-automatic.

01:18:30.320 It looks like with an extended magazine perhaps in it for carrying extra rounds, but they need more of a close-up to determine that.

01:18:37.680 Yeah.

01:18:38.440 They'll be able to enhance that.

01:18:39.880 So that'll, I mean, I don't know exactly how you put that together with a, you know, you can't just figure out who's bought, who's purchased.

01:18:50.140 Semi-automatic handguns, even if it's a Glock with an extended magazine.

01:18:53.880 I mean, you could go back years, you know, you're not going to be able to get to it from that.

01:18:57.820 But maybe from the backpack guys, like the, the brand or the backpack.

01:19:01.840 I mean, that's what they did in the pipe bomb case.

01:19:04.860 They went, they went to every radio shack.

01:19:07.060 They tried to, you know, figure out what are the ingredients that would be in this thing.

01:19:09.960 And just by shoe leather police work, you know, step by step, they found themselves what they say is the perpetrator.

01:19:16.240 It so often comes down to good police work.

01:19:18.580 And this is, this is going to come down to what you said from the very beginning, Megan, which is someone is going to identify this person. 0.98

01:19:25.760 Someone is looking at this and saying, oh shit, pardon me. 0.52

01:19:31.120 They know because, because of the compilation of all these different little elements. 0.97

01:19:36.100 And they're going to realize that whoever that's why they put out the picture, whoever that someone is somehow started acting funky around Saturday.

01:19:42.860 And then certainly the whole week after the post-offense behavior we're talking about.

01:19:47.500 So we don't know if this guy's a loner, married, kids.

01:19:50.380 I would say more on the loner side, but they're going to, boy, that could pass for, you know, my husband, Joe, or my brother, Bill.

01:19:57.900 And yeah, he's been really weird the last week and a half.

01:20:00.600 And he's been following things on the internet left and right.

01:20:03.400 And, you know, sending off these emails.

01:20:05.200 I mean, that could be for something else, but he's really looking into this.

01:20:08.520 And that could also, so the behavioral aspects of not just the identity of this person based on their description in these videos and these still photos.

01:20:18.220 Or your neighbor that you see.

01:20:18.780 Well, and the other thing we have, too, thankfully from the walking video, we can see his gait, Maureen.

01:20:23.900 We can see how he walks, which is also another big tell.

01:20:27.440 Yes.

01:20:27.900 And I notice how people walk.

01:20:29.460 I can tell their footfall as they walk down the hallway, who's coming.

01:20:34.460 And this is the break I think we've all been waiting for.

01:20:38.520 The other thing I want to say is with that weapon, even though they can't, we can't, you know, definitively tie anything to that, if within this pool of individuals that the FBI and the law enforcement has been honing in on and asking for DNA and looking for everything, if within that pool they have someone that owns that type of weapon, that's just going to narrow that group of individuals down considerably.

01:21:04.920 Good point.

01:21:06.320 Or who looks like this.

01:21:07.860 I mean, they may have a gardener who's got these eyes exactly.

01:21:12.720 Forgive me, I hate to blame the gardener at all times.

01:21:14.620 I mean, I was like, they may have somebody that they're already talking to who's got these exact eyes and this exact build.

01:21:22.580 And that's excluding the wife who's going to see that jacket.

01:21:27.020 The jacket's actually pretty distinctive as I'm looking at him banging on the nest cam.

01:21:34.040 It appears to be a warmer jacket with like the fleece.

01:21:38.160 You can see sort of up the sleeve a little.

01:21:40.220 It's at least layers of white, I don't know, wool.

01:21:44.320 It looks like a...

01:21:44.820 It looks kind of like fleece.

01:21:46.140 So it's...

01:21:46.320 Yep.

01:21:47.360 It's warm.

01:21:48.040 But I would...

01:21:48.580 See it there?

01:21:48.980 I would caution people against thinking that the jacket is striped because I'm...

01:21:54.100 What I think that is, is reflective material on the jacket for hiking or something like that.

01:22:01.280 Mm-hmm.

01:22:02.280 What the hell's in that backpack, guys?

01:22:04.320 That's a really scary thought.

01:22:05.820 Looks like it's filled to the brim, whatever it is.

01:22:08.340 And he was prepared for everything.

01:22:10.540 Although weirdly...

01:22:11.520 And again, he may have had duct tape with him, but he didn't just put that over top of the camera.

01:22:15.440 Or he's pulling out flora, vegetation of some sort from the front yard.

01:22:21.100 I mean, kind of a MacGyver rule there, play there on his part.

01:22:26.500 But it obviously didn't work in that regard.

01:22:29.880 And to go back to identification, just real quick, I worked the BTK case early on in 2000.

01:22:35.700 And then I watched the special, I guess it was on Netflix in the last week or so.

01:22:39.760 And here he kept his whole rape kit and kill kit, BTK kit, I guess you could call it.

01:22:45.780 Right in the house, the wife apparently had seen it a few times.

01:22:48.700 Bowling ball bag for all kinds of handcuffs and ties, duct tape.

01:22:53.000 And she never thought of even questioning about it.

01:22:56.100 So folks, if you're out there and there's somebody that has weird bags or backpacks in this case,

01:23:00.480 and there's any kind of unusual material in there, not really needed for hunting or camping,

01:23:05.680 and the person kind of looks like the one we're seeing on the video,

01:23:08.860 please call the tip line number and let's get this guy identified.

01:23:12.360 Maybe they're innocent, but let's get that person out there.

01:23:15.080 And I guarantee you, Maureen knows this.

01:23:16.980 We've been on these task forces in the past.

01:23:19.200 The phone is ringing off the hook and emails are coming in.

01:23:23.160 Now the question is, how do they characterize all these leads?

01:23:26.040 And who do they prioritize?

01:23:27.340 That triage.

01:23:27.920 But here's my question right now.

01:23:30.240 Here's what we need to ask. 0.98

01:23:33.620 If you're this guy and you are out there right now and this is an oh shit moment because your picture is now going to be plastered all over every newspaper, 0.93

01:23:42.640 every television station, every podcast, everything in America, what do you do? 0.62

01:23:47.980 Is there a threat to the public?

01:23:51.280 If Nancy Guthrie is still alive, does this help her?

01:23:56.580 I mean, obviously it helps her if they can catch him like ASAP, but does he panic?

01:24:01.540 You know, like should there be a message coming soon from the FBI?

01:24:05.200 Like don't do anything.

01:24:07.020 You know, like I don't know.

01:24:08.620 How do you handle this?

01:24:09.500 I would say it could go either way, but I would think it might help Nancy.

01:24:16.000 The only, you know, it gives me great joy to think of this person squirming, even though his squirm is nowhere as frightening as what Nancy went through.

01:24:26.480 However, with that backpack being that packed, I'm wondering, did he bring a tarp or a blanket or something?

01:24:33.420 Because, you know, Jim and I know too well how hard it is to move a body, but it's a lot easier if you have a blanket or a tarp.

01:24:46.720 A tarp.

01:24:47.780 That's how hunters do it.

01:24:48.940 You know, I was thinking for a second, maybe if like the remnants of the Nest camera got these shots, the remnants of it got him leaving, but that's not what happened.

01:24:58.480 This is, the Nest camera is still in its spot.

01:25:02.200 The Nest camera did get pictures of the perpetrator.

01:25:05.920 It's just, and he did remove the camera.

01:25:08.640 It's just something in the system.

01:25:10.860 Even though the sheriff told us at a presser, he was told by the company that they hadn't gotten it so far, but he said we're asking them to continue checking.

01:25:20.020 Something, I mean, they hit pay dirt.

01:25:22.400 They got the gold, you guys.

01:25:24.640 Like they, somehow the system did still have this.

01:25:26.800 Megan, do you think this is what they were looking for in Nancy's house last night in the dark?

01:25:31.480 Was using oblique lighting, like I talked about at the top of this show, to try to identify any of this vegetation that might be on the floor where boots were or where he keeps his shoes or in closets or anything like that?

01:25:46.260 I think that might be something.

01:25:48.640 That's a great question.

01:25:50.400 That's a great question.

01:25:51.680 Like a face mask?

01:25:54.980 Yeah, or boots?

01:25:56.200 I mean, I will say again.

01:25:56.600 I would say the face mask is gone.

01:25:58.180 I would guess because of the situation and because how big it's gotten.

01:26:01.840 No matter what has happened, my guess is he would have gotten rid of a lot of this, but Fitz would know better than I would.

01:26:08.820 However, if he's not a really fastidiously clean person, we'd be able to find some of that foliage in that house.

01:26:19.080 But the argument against it is if they went into the brother-in-law's house, and if this is him, and there is facial hair, but that's all we know for sure.

01:26:30.840 I mean, we made a close-up shot of the one face, and that is definitely a mustache, a dark mustache above his top lip there.

01:26:39.140 And in the other picture, it appears that there's facial hair down below the bottom lip, too.

01:26:46.240 If that were the case, Maureen, and they found a backpack, certainly if they found the face mask, I think we'd be talking about an arrest right now and not an appeal to the public to help us identify this guy, right?

01:26:57.920 And what does it tell us, if anything?

01:27:00.280 I'm going to start calling you Fitz, too.

01:27:01.600 I like that, Jim.

01:27:02.960 Sorry.

01:27:03.360 What does it tell us?

01:27:04.960 No, I like it.

01:27:05.920 You guys have a history.

01:27:06.940 What does it tell us that they haven't placed him under arrest and that they actually are issuing a general appeal to the public for any information?

01:27:16.960 Does that tell us that it's not the brother-in-law?

01:27:18.980 They don't think it's him?

01:27:21.760 I'll start here, Megan.

01:27:24.740 But we know, and Maureen knows this well, they've had these pictures for a few days.

01:27:31.140 They didn't just get them this morning and release them right away.

01:27:33.220 So we're talking about what does this offender doing with these things?

01:27:36.240 What is hiding them, destroying them?

01:27:38.140 What could happen to, of course, Mrs. Guthrie?

01:27:40.800 These are all kinds of questions involved in the post-offense behavior of this particular offender.

01:27:45.800 And now that the stakes have been raised as of the last hour or so, that he now is aware of this, just like we are on this panel, that that's when he has some decisions to make.

01:27:55.400 Let's hopefully he plays it smart here.

01:27:57.080 And if he somehow does have Mrs. Guthrie in his custody and she is still alive, nothing bad happens there.

01:28:04.060 But yeah, if he had a mustache, and I won't go into whether it's the brother-in-law or not, can't rule anything out or anyone out.

01:28:10.760 But if we're seeing a little bit of a mustache, two things.

01:28:13.920 Either it was planted there in advance as a decoy, or if it's real, it's come off as of about an hour ago.

01:28:24.100 And that is something we should put out there.

01:28:27.300 Did someone change their identity?

01:28:29.020 We know this very well for these people that become suspects in cases.

01:28:32.440 Is there anything they've done to change their identity?

01:28:34.820 Obviously, did they leave town?

01:28:36.300 Have they missed work last week?

01:28:37.660 Have they missed other commitments where they should have been somewhere?

01:28:40.740 And again, look at the visual representation of this person.

01:28:43.320 It's not 100% clear.

01:28:44.640 We get it on video.

01:28:45.740 But tie in these other factors and put them in these individual silos in your life and then see at the bottom.

01:28:51.540 If the grain all comes out, say, well, wait a minute.

01:28:53.380 Yeah, I have a guy.

01:28:54.120 He's kind of goofy, a buddy.

01:28:55.580 And he was absent all last week. 0.71

01:28:57.560 And he's always talking about he wants to make a big money hit somehow.

01:29:01.480 And he carries his gun.

01:29:03.100 And he always brags about it.

01:29:04.240 And that's what this all may come together and someone may be.

01:29:08.140 That's what's going to go to the top of that triage list that Maureen referenced in terms of who the suspect is, if they get that kind of a call.

01:29:15.220 Let me all week we've been having different experts with your kind of background on the show.

01:29:21.360 One of them is Jonathan Gilliam.

01:29:24.160 He just texted us his thoughts.

01:29:25.540 And here's an interesting one, Maureen.

01:29:27.200 He writes, he's not in any hurry, that's for sure.

01:29:30.620 And he had no problem walking right up to that camera, although it was really dark there.

01:29:35.480 So he might not have seen it.

01:29:37.360 But I find it very interesting how he turned around and went straight to something on the ground as if he knew it was there.

01:29:43.640 Which leads me back to the familiarity he has and how he got that familiarity.

01:29:48.920 Perhaps it's one of the roofers or some other type of laborer.

01:29:51.660 Perhaps this was a robbery and Nancy woke up.

01:29:55.140 If that's the case, I would expect her body to be close to home. 0.99

01:29:57.940 But if it's a relative, then the heat is getting heavy and they will break soon.

01:30:03.280 He also sees gun on the waistband, mustache for sure.

01:30:06.720 However, he says, you know what else this tells me?

01:30:09.480 The Nest cameras are actually recording what you're doing even when you don't have a subscription.

01:30:15.560 There's a fair amount of Americans who are kind of freaked out about their Nest camera and their Ring camera after that Super Bowl commercial that tried to get us to get one so that we could find lost dogs.

01:30:26.760 Then we all realize that we're all on camera all the time and somebody at Ring is watching it, which is creepy.

01:30:32.640 But I think this point about he's right, Maureen, how he turned around and went straight to something on the ground as if he knew it was there, that plant, the vegetation he picked up.

01:30:45.640 It was weird.

01:30:46.180 Can we see that video again, you guys?

01:30:47.660 Can you play that again?

01:30:48.880 Because it was like completely confident.

01:30:50.460 He did a couple of bangs with the fist.

01:30:52.200 Here he is.

01:30:52.640 He's walking up for listening audience.

01:30:54.520 One, two, three, four, five.

01:30:58.760 Gentle, gentle bangs.

01:31:00.300 Now he's cupping it.

01:31:02.640 A couple more gentle taps almost.

01:31:05.460 And he turns around.

01:31:06.120 Like, is it coming off easily?

01:31:07.040 It's over for a second.

01:31:07.800 No, it's not.

01:31:08.580 Yeah.

01:31:09.840 Yeah.

01:31:10.480 He walks over there.

01:31:11.340 Look what I found.

01:31:12.220 This should work.

01:31:13.620 Yep.

01:31:14.840 He bends down.

01:31:16.260 He knew exactly where he was going and then came right back.

01:31:20.220 I mean, I don't know if that shows familiarity with the property.

01:31:22.720 And if it does, it could certainly suggest he's just been there before.

01:31:26.400 But it is interesting.

01:31:28.900 He knew right where to go, Maureen.

01:31:30.140 Well, the backpack tells me he was not there to rob anybody.

01:31:33.940 There's no room to put anything in that backpack.

01:31:36.400 If you're going there to steal something, you're going to have an empty bag.

01:31:39.400 It's like when you go to Milan or something, you're going to pick up some great Italian clothing.

01:31:43.860 You're bringing an empty bag with you so you can fill it up.

01:31:46.840 Yeah, that's true.

01:31:47.020 He's not going in there with a jam-packed backpack.

01:31:51.040 What could he?

01:31:51.640 I mean, unless she's a diamond broker, there's going to be no room in there for anything.

01:31:55.060 And why would they have a gun out for an 84-year-old lady? 0.97

01:31:59.640 This was an abduction.

01:32:01.100 That's what this was.

01:32:01.720 I agree with you.

01:32:02.260 This wasn't a burglary.

01:32:03.520 Or a murder.

01:32:04.000 This was an abduction.

01:32:04.740 It was planned.

01:32:05.700 And he knew about, yes, that's the thing.

01:32:08.460 So let's put kidnapping to the side for one second.

01:32:12.160 If you want to go murder an 84-year-old woman, why don't you leave her there? 1.00

01:32:19.760 Why you did the mask, you got your gloves on.

01:32:24.240 What is the point of, we think, taking her out alive.

01:32:28.520 We only think that because there's blood.

01:32:31.380 I mean, A, she's gone, so we know she was taken out.

01:32:33.460 But B, she was bleeding.

01:32:36.260 I mean, a corpse can bleed too.

01:32:38.580 But she was bleeding.

01:32:40.040 And the pacemaker was connected to the iPhone as of at least 228.

01:32:44.580 It's possible he then killed her.

01:32:47.900 Or I don't know.

01:32:48.580 Because I think the pacemaker would show she had died prior to her pacemaker disconnecting from the phone.

01:32:56.540 So I do believe she was removed from the home, still alive.

01:33:00.980 But, I mean, I suppose it could be he didn't want the mess.

01:33:05.120 He didn't want the evidence.

01:33:06.380 And so his plan was, I'm getting her out of here. 1.00

01:33:09.600 And I'm going to go either kill her someplace else. 0.99

01:33:13.000 Or maybe it was an attempted kidnapping. 1.00

01:33:15.660 And maybe that kidnapping is still underway.

01:33:18.480 Maybe he's just, maybe he got foiled by these charlatans who zoomed in trying to claim they were the kidnappers.

01:33:26.960 And is still planning on making a demand.

01:33:30.400 You'd think he would have left a note or some sort at the scene.

01:33:34.500 That's the best way to prove you're the real deal as a kidnapper.

01:33:37.120 Leave something at the scene.

01:33:38.500 And you can guard it with gloves and keep your fingerprints, DNA off it.

01:33:42.640 The Unabomber got away with that for years. 0.98

01:33:44.300 Nothing was ever found on his documents.

01:33:46.360 It was his writing, of course, that eventually got to him.

01:33:49.160 And maybe that could have been a clue for this guy that he was concerned about.

01:33:52.440 But, yeah.

01:33:53.680 And with an older woman like this, why does he need a gun? 1.00

01:33:56.840 Did he really think he'd have to shoot her or someone else?

01:33:59.560 I would also say that if you're going to leave, if you're a stranger, you'd be more inclined to leave the body behind because no one's going to connect you to it.

01:34:09.960 If you're someone, and I'm not going to say family, but if you're somehow connected to that house, you may then have more of a reason for taking the body.

01:34:18.220 So there'd be no other indices of death or indications of death in that regard.

01:34:24.580 So we just don't know.

01:34:27.600 And, of course, we never can rule out the kidnapping.

01:34:29.520 Well, there's something else here, Jim.

01:34:30.480 Let me jump in.

01:34:31.760 There's another video just dropped, and we're going to put it up.

01:34:35.700 Hold on a second.

01:34:36.660 I'm trying to see it.

01:34:38.660 Okay, it's on the screen.

01:34:39.740 He's walking up.

01:34:41.500 With his head down, weirdly.

01:34:42.980 Kind of casually.

01:34:44.100 It's just a few seconds.

01:34:46.600 It's hard to see.

01:34:47.520 He's kind of just sauntering up there very casually.

01:34:52.920 He does have an interesting kind of walk.

01:34:56.200 It's almost like even with the mask on, he didn't necessarily want the camera to look at him directly.

01:35:01.760 So he kind of puts his head down.

01:35:03.400 But eventually, you can see it.

01:35:06.700 So that altar, he modified himself in that regard.

01:35:10.660 But this is like, keep my head down for now.

01:35:14.320 There's nothing on the floor that I think would be attracted to him.

01:35:18.520 Yes.

01:35:19.040 Guys, Debbie Murphy just said she sees something flashing in his mouth.

01:35:23.360 And I thought I saw that before.

01:35:26.620 Yes.

01:35:28.480 I don't know if you can see it.

01:35:29.720 It does look like a light.

01:35:30.820 He has a...

01:35:32.260 It looks like he's got a light in his mouth.

01:35:33.920 Oh, a small flashlight.

01:35:35.220 People sometimes, like, even cops will hold a flashlight in their mouth like this.

01:35:41.540 It looked like that here.

01:35:42.640 Look here.

01:35:43.260 Yeah.

01:35:43.720 Yeah.

01:35:44.040 Look at this one.

01:35:44.600 It's hard to tell if it was a reflection or not.

01:35:46.420 But we can see the beam on the other one you just showed, Megan.

01:35:50.040 You can see the beam hit the ground.

01:35:51.700 So that is a flashlight.

01:35:53.020 Yes.

01:35:55.000 So why does he have the flashlight in his mouth as he's walking up?

01:35:59.120 His head is...

01:36:00.060 For a listening audience, now I can see it clearly.

01:36:01.500 He's coming onto the property underneath the archway that brings you onto her patio.

01:36:05.740 His head is down.

01:36:06.980 He's looking down almost like he's forlorn.

01:36:09.680 But obviously, it's a disguise to keep his face from looking into the cam.

01:36:13.020 And you can see in the first frame of it as he's walking toward, there's a light in his mouth that is on and then it's off.

01:36:22.260 And then he walks up and then it comes back on because we saw it earlier in a still shot of him messing with the nest cam.

01:36:28.360 But why, when you're approaching the home, you have the flashlight in your mouth?

01:36:34.620 Because it's pitch black out there.

01:36:37.200 And you want to keep your hands free.

01:36:39.820 And so you put the flashlight in your mouth.

01:36:43.980 It'd be interesting if they found a flashlight in there, like in the flurry of activity.

01:36:48.440 It may have been left behind.

01:36:49.720 And now that's another thing from these videos that has the wheels in my brain turning.

01:36:56.900 One of them is touch DNA.

01:36:58.800 They're going to be looking for touch DNA everywhere on those plants.

01:37:03.280 Because even though he's wearing gloves, he's wearing leather gloves, not sterile, you know, latex gloves.

01:37:09.900 He's wearing probably his own leather gloves, which will have his DNA on them.

01:37:13.520 They're going to be able to go to the housing of where that camera was, where he wrestled it from the housing.

01:37:20.660 And this is the break we've been waiting for.

01:37:26.360 Do you think, Maureen, that they have other images that they're not releasing?

01:37:32.920 Because what we don't see in here is him successfully get the nest cam down.

01:37:36.740 Yes, I would think they may have more.

01:37:41.060 Well, especially since we've gotten three iterations in the last three minutes, I wouldn't be surprised if they had more.

01:37:48.080 I remember, if you recall, the camera that the ERT members got off the roof of the house apparently had some sort of solar panel attached to it.

01:37:59.620 So that might be something they're trying to retrieve information from as well.

01:38:04.420 That one, too, could have recovered images.

01:38:08.420 They got that one later in the game.

01:38:10.000 It's possible they're searching that one right now.

01:38:11.760 Were you going to say something, Jim?

01:38:14.400 No, Maureen more or less covered it there.

01:38:17.140 But the flashlight part, yeah, free up his hands.

01:38:20.320 They obviously sell them like a miner's type of hat or certainly a band you can put around your head, which is very effective for freeing up your hands and having lights.

01:38:28.360 This guy didn't go that route.

01:38:29.720 He had some sort that he quits in his mouth.

01:38:31.820 He's probably, and again, I'm looking at this from a behaviorless perspective.

01:38:35.700 If anyone knows this guy, I wouldn't put a flashlight in my mouth.

01:38:39.740 I wouldn't put anything in my mouth except food and my hands.

01:38:42.860 I'm just like that.

01:38:44.160 A lot of people are, especially post-COVID.

01:38:47.440 This is a guy who may walk around and do little chores around the house when it's even semi-dark with a flashlight in his mouth.

01:38:54.340 So, again, there's another clue, folks, out there, if you're listening, besides the looks on the video, the backpack, all that stuff, what he's been missing the last week, are very preoccupied.

01:39:04.260 Who do you know that carries a flashlight in their mouth?

01:39:06.200 Not everyone does that.

01:39:07.180 It could be dangerous, too.

01:39:08.300 It's very true. 0.99

01:39:09.120 And you can punch in the mouth. 0.88

01:39:10.600 That would make most of us feel very uncomfortable. 0.59

01:39:12.440 Like, most people would not want to do that unless they were, like, in a cave trying to rescue themselves.

01:39:18.520 Plus, it's hard metal.

01:39:19.540 You can knock your teeth out very easily.

01:39:21.220 So, Fitz is right.

01:39:22.140 That isn't something that a lot of people do.

01:39:24.160 But I have seen guys do that before.

01:39:27.480 I prefer the headlamp, personally.

01:39:29.720 Or under my arm as a cop.

01:39:31.000 Here's my other.

01:39:31.760 I'm Abigail Finan, my trusty assistant.

01:39:33.680 She makes sure we always have a headlamp in my family. 0.80

01:39:36.260 She takes care of us.

01:39:37.340 Um, I want to ask what this rules out.

01:39:42.820 Like, I would suggest this doesn't tell, this doesn't scream Mexican cartel to me.

01:39:48.120 But hold that thought, because we have to take a break.

01:39:50.620 We're coming up to the end of the hour.

01:39:52.440 I, I'd love to hold you guys over.

01:39:54.880 Um, there's obviously a lot happening right now.

01:39:57.520 So, we'll hold you over.

01:39:58.500 We'll take a break.

01:39:59.280 And we will be right back.

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01:42:13.440 We are back now with the Megan Kelly Show covering breaking news in the investigation into what happened to Nancy Guthrie,

01:42:20.160 the FBI, in a stunning move, releasing shocking pictures of what is clearly the perpetrator who hurt Nancy Guthrie,

01:42:29.340 who seems to have abducted her, for what purpose, we do not know.

01:42:33.780 Releasing images that appear to be from her Nest camera on her front door before he was, we are told, able to disconnect it.

01:42:43.060 We are told that the disconnection happened at 1.47 a.m., and therefore it would appear that these images we are seeing now,

01:42:51.900 courtesy of the FBI, happened just prior to that because it took this guy a minute to figure out exactly how to disconnect the thing.

01:42:58.080 Back with me now, Maureen O'Connell.

01:42:59.840 She's co-host of the Best Case, Worst Case podcast, and Jim Fitzgerald, co-host of Cold Red Podcast.

01:43:06.380 And they're both long-term veterans of the FBI.

01:43:11.140 So here's the real question now.

01:43:15.120 If you're this guy, and I don't know, like, I have no idea.

01:43:19.060 To me, I'll just say it.

01:43:21.860 To me, he looks younger than the brother-in-law.

01:43:24.740 His mustache looks black, and the brother-in-law's is gray.

01:43:29.320 And the brother-in-law's eyes are more hooded than appear in this guy.

01:43:34.440 Okay, so I don't mean to beat up on the brother-in-law, but since he's been out there, I will say, to me, this doesn't look like it's a match, but we'll find out.

01:43:44.640 The FBI is going to know this very, very soon.

01:43:47.640 But if this is the guy—all right, let me start with this.

01:43:51.260 Does this look like a professional hitman to you, like, based on what you guys saw in that video?

01:43:55.860 If I can start with this, Megan, there are very, very few actual, legit, real, quote-unquote, professional hitmen out there.

01:44:04.520 Of course, the mob has some.

01:44:05.740 The cartels have them.

01:44:07.100 People like that.

01:44:07.880 They'll take out mostly their own kind. 1.00

01:44:09.760 But for professional—this alleged professional hitmen that Hollywood likes to talk about, there are very, very few in that regard.

01:44:18.360 Now, it doesn't mean there's some freelancer out there talking to some guys, sees something on the dark web, and says, hey, I could do something like this.

01:44:26.600 What's the address?

01:44:27.800 And this is what happens.

01:44:29.700 But these cases of, again, hitmen, unless there's some lover triangle involved, and somehow that's where the other party gets taken out, they're relatively, I would say, very rare, quite frankly.

01:44:42.640 And Maureen, maybe you have more experience with that than my career, but they're just not seen very often.

01:44:49.140 What about the cartel piece of it?

01:44:51.360 Like, that's where I left us before we left.

01:44:53.220 Does this look to you like somebody who could possibly be affiliated with a cartel?

01:44:58.180 Here's the deal with the cartel, because I worked narcotics all those years.

01:45:01.420 The cartel's job, if they're kidnapping someone, it's a hit-and-run operation, meaning you get in there, you get the hell out, you do whatever you can.

01:45:09.440 You have it already set up for the ransom.

01:45:11.680 You get that money, and you drop that victim off someplace, and let her figure out how to reach out to her family so that you don't have to.

01:45:19.220 I mean, it's a situation that's rapid, fluid, and the whole goal is to get money.

01:45:26.040 That isn't at all what we've seen here.

01:45:28.500 It's just been this crazy rigmarole, and with so many data points, they don't even seem to coincide with one another.

01:45:38.400 It's like if you had her, prove that she's alive.

01:45:42.500 As I watch this, you guys, and I mean, we're all subject to our own priors and biases, right?

01:45:47.540 But I'm thinking about the actress Rebecca Schaefer, and she was on My Sister Sam.

01:45:55.260 She was a rising star.

01:45:56.640 She starred with Pam Dauber.

01:45:58.440 Remember her?

01:45:59.020 This is back in the 80s.

01:46:00.220 Sure.

01:46:00.380 And she was the younger sister, and she had just gotten to Hollywood, and her star was rising, and there was a man who became obsessed with her who was watching her show, and she had not yet protected herself by figuring out how to layer, how to put layers between you and the public.

01:46:15.640 She was easy to find.

01:46:17.460 And he rang the doorbell with a dozen roses, and she opened the door, and long story short, he murdered her right there on the doorstep.

01:46:28.040 Because he was obsessed with her. 0.82

01:46:29.840 I mean, because he was crazy, but he was functioning.

01:46:33.220 He wasn't, you know, fire-breathing, walking down the sidewalk. 0.99

01:46:37.280 People did not know he was crazy, but he was crazy, and he killed her.

01:46:40.900 And I can't help but think whether this is a possibility with this guy who just, I mean, you can't rule it out that there was some obsession, obviously, with Savannah.

01:46:51.220 I don't think many people would develop some weird obsession with an 84-year-old senior citizen, but it's possible that somebody was obsessed with Savannah, and she's, I believe, impossible to get to, but her mom's not.

01:47:06.440 Right.

01:47:06.680 And this guy seems kind of young.

01:47:09.120 You can't totally tell, obviously, but to me, he looks kind of young.

01:47:13.000 And, you know, young is where the psychotic break happens.

01:47:17.660 I'm really out on a limb here.

01:47:19.160 I'm just saying this is an angle that deserves some discussion.

01:47:22.740 I agree, but I think we're forgetting something, or, you know, we may not have gotten to the point where we noticed something really important right now, and that is he's at the front door.

01:47:32.100 The front door is not what they were talking about in those pressers.

01:47:35.180 They were talking about the back door was left open, like he entered through the back door, and, you know, was there—we still don't know from the sheriff if, in fact, there was forced entry.

01:47:46.880 But if there wasn't forced entry, this person's at the front door.

01:47:51.600 How'd they get in?

01:47:52.640 So the forced entry is going to be key.

01:47:56.020 So, if my memory serves, Ashley Banfield reported that there was forced entry, and the sheriff has steadfastly refused to comment on it.

01:48:05.140 He won't say.

01:48:07.400 And, I mean, it is—maybe that's what the video shows next, because I don't think we've seen all the video, because we do not see the moment where he gets the Nest camera down.

01:48:16.440 Ashley's reporting that these are Nest cams, not Ring cams.

01:48:18.640 But we don't see the moment where it disconnects and, like, goes dark.

01:48:22.660 So, clearly, they didn't show that for some reason.

01:48:24.860 And you're right.

01:48:26.100 Ashley's also reporting that the back door was open and that the guy removed the Nest cam from the back door, too.

01:48:33.320 And that's strange.

01:48:35.980 He's at the front door.

01:48:37.100 He's going in the front door.

01:48:37.980 We think he left the front door.

01:48:39.520 Well, we don't see him go in.

01:48:40.600 But we believe he exited through the front door, because that's where Nancy's blood was.

01:48:47.440 So, clearly, he at least attempted to leave with Nancy through the front door.

01:48:50.840 Okay, but from a cartel standpoint, I can tell you right now, a cartel member is not going to hit that front door because it had a burglar gate on it.

01:48:59.140 Those things are very hard to breach.

01:49:01.180 Trust me when I tell you from experience.

01:49:04.140 If I'm going to breach the door—

01:49:05.220 Wait, he had a what?

01:49:06.460 One of those burglar doors on it.

01:49:08.160 You know, the metal.

01:49:09.040 It's all metal, and the frame is actually screwed sideways about with six, eight, 12-inch bolts into the side of the frame of the door.

01:49:19.420 It's not something that you just put on.

01:49:21.720 You know those metal ones that look kind of Spanish, but you can't get through them. 0.99

01:49:26.360 They're extremely hard to breach.

01:49:28.820 Well, they're very hard to breach.

01:49:30.220 So, if that next video shows him trying to breach that door and he's good at it, that's going to be a person from a different—at a different level.

01:49:41.180 So, maybe what happened next is he went around—yeah, maybe he went around to the back door and got in that way.

01:49:49.700 And, I mean, if that happened, like, if there's video showing him struggling and he can't get the door open, and then he gives up and goes around to the back, then I think we can safely say it's somebody familiar with the property.

01:49:58.760 It could be a landscaper.

01:50:02.500 It could be somebody, you know, it's like the person knew exactly where the vegetation was and what they wanted to grab, and they did it.

01:50:08.160 So, it could be a friend or a family member who's familiar, but it could also be somebody like a groundskeeper.

01:50:12.300 Right.

01:50:12.480 Or someone who's just spent a fair amount of time on the property and knew immediately there's a back door that they should get to.

01:50:18.720 And, frankly, that would be the—that would make some sense because who that's breaking into a home like this and gets in through the front door after all this stuff we're watching on camera then says,

01:50:29.080 gee, maybe I should go disarm the Nest camera in the back door.

01:50:32.180 No one's even thinking about the back door.

01:50:35.080 Unless there's something we don't know.

01:50:36.680 So, again, we don't—we think it's one person now, and we—you know, I surmised earlier there could have been someone in a car.

01:50:43.920 Obviously, we don't see the car out front, and we don't know if anyone would be in there or not.

01:50:47.960 There has to be a car, I would think, for this person to make his egress, not just, of course, from the house, but from the street and from the whole neighborhood.

01:50:55.840 So, why the back door would be involved here?

01:50:58.820 Was there some sort of a tentative walk around there to check it out at some point?

01:51:03.500 And he decided out of the two doors, which one is the one easier to break into, to break down?

01:51:11.260 That's unknown and will have to be determined, of course, later.

01:51:14.060 Is it determination which way the person came in as opposed to which way the person left?

01:51:20.120 I don't know that either.

01:51:21.400 And hopefully the investigators do know.

01:51:23.220 But more camera information, of course, will tell us about all of that.

01:51:28.140 There is—there's a couple of accounts on X that have tried to make the contrast higher on the photos and even bring out some color.

01:51:38.860 We grabbed just one of them.

01:51:40.140 This is from somebody who goes by Sophie on X.

01:51:42.660 And you can see a little bit more clearly the gloves look black, 100%.

01:51:48.080 They don't look brown.

01:51:49.420 And leather.

01:51:49.860 And definitely leather.

01:51:54.140 To me, the jacket, I don't know, looks gray with lighter pants.

01:52:00.000 I can't really tell.

01:52:01.720 There's definitely—what's that, Steve?

01:52:04.420 There's a close-up of the face.

01:52:06.560 I mean, he's got pretty wide eyes.

01:52:08.060 I mean, it's weird.

01:52:08.720 He actually looks like he's wearing eyeliner to me in a way.

01:52:12.120 He's got like—you see what I mean?

01:52:14.280 In first image, I thought it was like swimming goggles almost, it looked like, when I first saw it on my phone, that little first—

01:52:21.120 Yeah.

01:52:22.760 Yeah.

01:52:23.740 And it looks like there's something in his mouth.

01:52:25.780 I can't tell what it is.

01:52:27.180 Maybe that's his little light.

01:52:29.100 I'm sorry, light.

01:52:30.000 Yes, light.

01:52:30.480 It's—yeah, the light.

01:52:32.000 But it's a slim—it's almost like a—it's a slim horizontal thing.

01:52:36.480 I would have expected a round—I don't know how flashlights come that could go into your mouth.

01:52:40.640 But it does appear to be like a long, flat, like rectangular thing in his mouth.

01:52:46.500 And the eyes look big, round, and like they have eyeliner, which typically means the person has black hair.

01:52:54.800 Because, trust me, we blondes, we do not look like we have eyeliner on when we are not wearing eyeliner, right? 0.97

01:53:02.320 Or he may have put eyeliner on because that's the only part of his face exposed beside the lips.

01:53:07.420 He may actually have eyeliner on.

01:53:09.100 Well, here's the other question I have for you, though.

01:53:12.700 What about—oh, stand by.

01:53:16.160 What?

01:53:17.420 This is an aside.

01:53:18.600 Brian Engine just reporting.

01:53:19.980 A pizza delivery man just showed up to Nancy Guthrie's house and was able to walk up to the front door without the deputies out front noticing.

01:53:27.200 Oh, my Lord.

01:53:27.820 Okay, let's go back to eyeliner man. 0.95

01:53:33.960 He—the fact that there's no car right behind him, you guys, is freaking me out.

01:53:39.360 Because if you are showing up at this home to abduct a lady, an 84-year-old, aren't you going to put your car right there?

01:53:47.520 Like, right there so you can get her in? 0.79

01:53:50.700 No, if you're afraid of—if you're afraid of a camera being there, you'd at least—you know you have to show yourself at some point the mask and the jacket and all that stuff, you know, hidden hair, gloves.

01:54:00.180 But you don't want to have your car obvious to the camera.

01:54:04.220 So that was somehow parked on an angle.

01:54:06.500 Yes, it would make his job more difficult to carry, however he did it, Mrs. Guthrie, out the door to the car itself.

01:54:13.460 But he looks like he's big enough, hefty enough, not lanky as we were saying earlier, that he could probably carry the 150-pound woman to the car.

01:54:22.060 And he would ideally like to have it closer, but from a tactical perspective or a counter-forensic perspective, he wanted out of the sight of that camera.

01:54:32.860 So that would make more sense there.

01:54:34.160 So this guy, yeah, we've got to give him credit, again, air quotes, where it's due.

01:54:40.300 He is somewhat forensically sophisticated with gloves, with hat.

01:54:45.000 Maureen's right.

01:54:45.600 There could be touched—when you put the gloves on, leather gloves, there could be touched DNA on top of that, which then could be left in some other part of the house, too.

01:54:54.440 And that could be the break they're looking for.

01:54:56.160 And a bunch of people are getting their mouths swabbed, I understand, cool people in the last 24 hours or so.

01:55:01.140 And that could be a result of, again, this video that's come out now.

01:55:05.700 And they may have something off the house.

01:55:06.780 Well, a whole bunch of people are going to get ruled out quickly.

01:55:08.300 You know, if you've got more Asian eyes—this is not an Asian man. 1.00

01:55:11.780 I think we can say that.

01:55:12.660 It's not a black man. 0.99

01:55:13.640 We can say that. 0.79

01:55:14.440 It's not a super tall man.

01:55:16.380 We can say that.

01:55:17.140 It's not a super slim man.

01:55:19.180 But it's not a hugely obese man, either, as a medium build.

01:55:23.580 Wait, before we move on from the—

01:55:25.160 And they have very round eyes.

01:55:27.340 Before we move on from how slim he is, he could have something tucked under his jacket in the front to make him look fatter.

01:55:34.480 Or to make it look like he has a beer belly.

01:55:37.920 We thought that about the brown person, but that was real to help eventually. 1.00

01:55:41.820 He was fat. 0.96

01:55:42.340 Oh, I knew he was. 0.99

01:55:43.600 I knew he was.

01:55:44.300 By the way, he walked with those fallen arches on the—you know, you could tell he was—

01:55:48.880 The brown shooter we're talking about.

01:55:51.040 What, you knew that—

01:55:51.720 Brown shooter.

01:55:52.300 You're right.

01:55:52.860 Oh, Brown University.

01:55:53.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:55:55.600 Hold on a second.

01:55:56.400 This is—okay.

01:56:00.400 Well, who is this person?

01:56:01.440 My team is sending me things that are helpful, but I've got to figure out who this is.

01:56:05.440 It's an investigative journalist at Town Hall who's estimating he's between 5'10 and 5'11.

01:56:10.140 We really—we don't know.

01:56:12.460 But he's actually checking.

01:56:14.120 He's looking out.

01:56:15.300 He's looking at the bricks.

01:56:16.260 This is actually a thoughtful analysis because he's looking at the bricks that are there and coming up with an estimate based on the bricks and how they typically—how big they typically are, how many inches they typically are, to put him at about 5'10 and 5'11.

01:56:28.120 I mean, my own armchair analysis suggested he was about 6'2.

01:56:31.780 I can see that.

01:56:34.300 Let's see.

01:56:35.200 We don't—you know.

01:56:37.300 Can I mention something about the leather gloves?

01:56:41.200 Yeah.

01:56:41.780 So when you're taking your—

01:56:42.780 No.

01:56:43.420 Oh, go ahead.

01:56:44.480 Yeah, go ahead.

01:56:45.000 Sorry.

01:56:45.300 Sorry.

01:56:45.620 No, go ahead.

01:56:46.360 When you're taking off your leather gloves, you take them off sometimes finger by finger, right?

01:56:52.320 So you get your right hand off.

01:56:54.020 Sometimes you just grab the whole—like this whole part and pull.

01:56:58.500 Other times you grab off finger to finger.

01:57:01.180 Those—if there are fingerprints on the tips of those gloves and he touched things within the house, he could have transferred a fingerprint onto a hard surface.

01:57:10.880 It is possible.

01:57:13.260 And, right, or even just his DNA.

01:57:15.860 Yeah, definitely.

01:57:16.720 DNA.

01:57:17.580 He can get rid of the gloves.

01:57:18.620 That doesn't even matter.

01:57:19.180 It's his DNA that is linked to the touch DNA found in the house.

01:57:23.220 So the clothing material becomes irrelevant then.

01:57:26.920 And when you said, why would you lose—

01:57:28.540 The parts of him having touched nothing are slim.

01:57:31.720 Megan, when you said earlier, why would he take the body or whatever, I think, obviously, money was the motive.

01:57:37.220 This is not an instance where, you know, we were speculating earlier on in this extravaganza we've been involved in that maybe something went horribly wrong when there was an argument or something along those lines.

01:57:50.540 That doesn't appear to be what happened now.

01:57:52.620 It seems now this was a kidnapping or just a straight-up murder where they removed the body.

01:57:59.400 But remember you talked earlier at the top of the hour where you were saying that, you know, if a gardener's fingerprints or DNA are in the house, that's one thing if he's in the kitchen or the restroom or something like that.

01:58:10.520 But if it's on her bedding or on her nightstand, you know, that's a totally different deal.

01:58:17.380 That may be why the body was removed if they went there just to kill her.

01:58:23.140 But it's still looking more and more like a kidnapping at this point.

01:58:27.420 And somehow, but that somehow took over by, taken over by someone, you know, starting with these emails and this Bitcoin thing down the line.

01:58:38.040 Can we say that, Jim?

01:58:39.480 Let's talk about that just for one minute.

01:58:41.400 Now that we know for sure someone was there.

01:58:44.140 I mean, we knew because the Nest cameras were destroyed that somebody got her.

01:58:47.320 But now there's just no denying.

01:58:48.760 It's literally right there on tape.

01:58:51.360 Should we spend another minute on, just one minute before we say goodbye to the ransom notes?

01:58:57.420 On whether there's a possibility they were real.

01:59:00.780 I mean, maybe they were real.

01:59:02.640 Is it they were real and and they've killed her now because they didn't get their payment.

01:59:07.800 And now that's it.

01:59:10.120 Megan, I would argue if they were real and connected to this abductor or, quite frankly, connect, not connected to this abductor that we're seeing the video images of.

01:59:19.520 They would have shown proof of life.

01:59:21.960 We discussed this at length yesterday and I think, you know, Friday before we signed off.

01:59:27.200 This is the it's the if not unwritten, it's the written written rule of kidnapping.

01:59:32.300 Everyone realized you've got to show this proof of life.

01:59:34.500 And now we don't know what the what the Guthrie family did.

01:59:37.040 They made the payment or not last night.

01:59:38.940 Six million or more or less.

01:59:40.860 So we don't know.

01:59:41.780 But we don't think so, because TMZ has the Bitcoin account numbers and it's reporting today that there's no money in there, that no one has made a deposit in there.

01:59:51.700 But, Megan, what if you listen to the FBI's statement that they put out, they said we know of no other communication between the kidnapper and the Guthrie family.

02:00:03.080 Jim can speak to this extensively.

02:00:05.060 I'm sure there are a lot of times where they'll find a side road into the family and and set up a different account and whatever.

02:00:12.760 Right, Jim.

02:00:14.180 Oh, yeah.

02:00:14.780 That happens all the time.

02:00:15.740 Yeah.

02:00:16.000 I mean, in these types of deals, not for profit kidnappings, as we're seeing here, but where there's other hidden accounts that people no one else allegedly knows about and money could be deposited there.

02:00:26.700 But, yeah, there's just so many that this does change somewhat.

02:00:31.920 We knew she was abducted and I always was skeptical whether it was for that it was for profit.

02:00:37.460 Again, revenge or or or something else.

02:00:41.040 If it's for revenge, something against the family.

02:00:44.400 Maybe they just didn't want the family seeing the body in the house and they wanted, you know, to save the family from that.

02:00:52.140 It almost sounds like that, you know, there'd be some other set of rules put in there for them.

02:00:57.120 This is so unusual on so many different levels and unprecedented that we're all learning here along the way, quite frankly.

02:01:04.980 And the investigators know more than we do.

02:01:07.220 And these videos add a lot to what we did to have.

02:01:09.980 But I think, Maureen, and you and I talked about this and Megan, we talked on the air.

02:01:14.880 It doesn't surprise me that this is the kind of person that came to the door.

02:01:19.000 We didn't rule out someone knows a young girl, hey, my car broke down.

02:01:22.500 Can I use your phone?

02:01:23.600 We didn't rule that out.

02:01:24.580 But it's more likely going to be something like what we see here.

02:01:28.220 Secretive in the middle of the night, well-prepared, mission-oriented.

02:01:32.080 I use that term a lot to get in the door, which they eventually did.

02:01:35.720 Why 41 minutes in the door?

02:01:37.320 That is still unclear in the house, I should say.

02:01:40.540 But that will come out at some point, probably.

02:01:43.460 And then somehow this woman is carried out to a car parked at least a little bit down the driveway out of the range of the camera. 1.00

02:01:51.060 Then they had to decide what they're going to do.

02:01:52.540 On that front, a helpful Twitter user who goes by Chilanoi has slowed down the video where he approaches.

02:02:04.340 And you can see that he is coming in from the left.

02:02:08.120 We're going to show it.

02:02:08.860 He's coming in from the side of the property right there.

02:02:11.300 You can't quite see it in the video we're showing, but he's coming in from the left, around the bend of the left there, which would be consistent with maybe he does have a car.

02:02:21.420 That's where the driveway is.

02:02:22.280 And he was smart enough not to, yeah, not to park it right in front where the Nest camera could get him.

02:02:28.740 I mean, clearly you guys, you tell me, but clearly he had cased, he had cased the joint prior, right?

02:02:34.140 No doubt.

02:02:34.860 No doubt.

02:02:35.280 He knew there was a Nest camera.

02:02:37.760 He knew where to park and where not to park.

02:02:39.780 He knew where the vegetation was.

02:02:42.100 He seems pretty calm.

02:02:44.440 He's not like panicking, running around, right?

02:02:47.460 He seems exceptionally calm.

02:02:50.460 Imagine.

02:02:51.080 How could that be?

02:02:52.860 He's been there before.

02:02:53.900 Imagine what you're about to do.

02:02:55.960 He's been there before or someone he knows has been there before and gave him a very distinctive and specific description of the place.

02:03:02.240 I'm convinced of that.

02:03:03.800 But imagine the mindset of breaking into a house, destroying cameras.

02:03:09.580 I mean, when you're prepping yourself for this act and you're walking up to the door, you've got your gun right there.

02:03:17.340 For an 84-year-old woman, why do you even need a gun? 1.00

02:03:20.360 Unless you're just trying to scare her into opening some safe, open some documents, something along that line, but nothing was missing.

02:03:27.500 And then you're trying to prepare yourself for harming her, which it shows this offender, whoever he was, had a proclivity and a predisposition toward hurting people because she was bleeding on her way out.

02:03:39.660 So there's just no doubt about that.

02:03:42.180 You know, what type of offender can do this type of thing?

02:03:46.480 What type of person, Jim?

02:03:48.020 Well, I would argue a psychopath and on the scale of psychopathy somewhere and, you know, narcissistic, has no feelings of empathy, doesn't care about other people.

02:03:59.000 And he just said, you know, this is a mission I'm on.

02:04:01.980 We don't know the purpose of the mission yet, the motivation that is.

02:04:05.000 But perhaps, you know, profit-oriented to some degree.

02:04:09.500 Just get rid of the body. 0.96

02:04:10.420 Don't worry about the kidnapping part.

02:04:11.980 And these other people kick in with the alleged kidnapping with the Bitcoin.

02:04:16.280 So it's so far a mystery wrapped up in a riddle.

02:04:21.900 But maybe the enigma part is left now that we see these videos.

02:04:25.700 And this is going to generate a lot of activity on the part of this offender as well as people that possibly know him.

02:04:33.280 Again, Tucson, local to Tucson, did he drive, you know, all day long to get there, then left the scene?

02:04:39.140 These are factors that we're going to have to determine.

02:04:41.380 They say, you know, you don't want to poop where you eat.

02:04:44.820 I'll be polite here.

02:04:45.900 So I can't imagine this guy being a next-door neighbor or even around the block from around the block.

02:04:52.560 But they're going to keep all angles open and all avenues open to find out who this person is and not roll out geography as being a factor.

02:05:00.240 But the more you're traveling, I'll just leave it with this part.

02:05:03.460 The more you're traveling with a – Mrs. Guthrie had to be disabled to some degree. 1.00

02:05:09.300 We know she would bleed.

02:05:10.080 Yes.

02:05:10.540 Did he wrap her in duct tape to keep her quiet?

02:05:12.760 The farther you're driving with someone in your car, in the trunk, in a bag, whatever it is, the more you are opening yourself for risk, for arrest.

02:05:22.480 And you're also carrying a weapon.

02:05:25.080 I'm not sure exactly the carry laws in Arizona.

02:05:29.860 But, you know, if that happens to be seen and you're dressed, then what's that ski cap doing here?

02:05:35.600 It's a little chilly tonight in Tucson.

02:05:37.900 But really, you need that thing.

02:05:39.620 And so this guy couldn't have gone too far.

02:05:42.460 And I've said from day one, Megan, you know, the immediate property or properties around there, that may have been the ultimate goal of this person, just dispose of Mrs. Guthrie there.

02:05:53.480 And I won't get any more graphic than that.

02:05:56.520 Let me show you guys something.

02:05:58.540 This could just be a function of the Nest camera not being great.

02:06:02.560 It's not exactly like you're sitting there with a Nikon.

02:06:04.540 But this was from the second batch of pictures Cash released.

02:06:10.160 And I don't know if you can see it very well, but it's him just getting there and coming through.

02:06:15.640 Or I shouldn't say just getting there.

02:06:17.040 I don't know.

02:06:17.420 But he's at the arch.

02:06:18.920 He's not all the way onto the patio in this shot.

02:06:22.100 And for some reason, there are no eye holes.

02:06:25.400 There's no mouth hole.

02:06:27.040 There's no gun.

02:06:28.800 There's no backpack.

02:06:31.220 There's nothing.

02:06:31.980 Megan, it's just sort of odd.

02:06:35.540 Well, the backpack, the only reason you see the backpack when we get closer is the reflection or the refraction of the light onto those illuminating strips that we talked about earlier.

02:06:47.440 The straps, yeah.

02:06:48.480 But they're pretty pronounced.

02:06:50.240 The straps are pretty darn pronounced.

02:06:52.840 I mean, they're tough to miss.

02:06:54.380 Yeah, it's the pixelation.

02:06:55.400 One shot from the one shot.

02:06:58.960 No, something's going on here.

02:07:00.500 Because the picture I just showed you from Chilanoi, the gal who slowed down the entry, and I said he was coming from the back, like, left, around the left bend.

02:07:10.280 And there you can see the backpack has such reflective tape on it, the straps, horizontal, reflective tape, that they look like lights.

02:07:21.180 I mean, I'm not totally convinced they're not lights, to be honest with you.

02:07:23.700 But they're extremely reflective, or they're lights, on the front of the backpack.

02:07:28.580 And you can see on Chilanoi's little freeze frame of the video, the black stripe down the middle and the double white stripe on either side of it.

02:07:36.180 And you can see the weapon wagging from his belt.

02:07:38.760 And you can see the eye holes in the mask.

02:07:42.800 So it is odd.

02:07:44.900 It's actually kind of eerie.

02:07:46.340 It's creepy.

02:07:48.020 I don't even know what this picture is from Kash Patel.

02:07:50.360 But is it possible he's releasing, and maybe we will get a press conference at some point.

02:07:54.900 Is it possible he's releasing casing photos, right?

02:07:59.840 Like, it is possible this guy did show up with maybe the mask turned around, so you could not see his face at all, and he didn't yet have his gun, and he wasn't wearing his backpack to get a look at what he was about to walk into, to get a look at the Nest Cam.

02:08:18.980 I mean, this is possibly him doing a little recon work.

02:08:22.080 Thoughts?

02:08:22.520 If we can go back to that picture, it's a little confusing on the – so away from his body, upper left.

02:08:29.780 I'm not sure exactly where the street or the road comes in.

02:08:33.340 But, boy, from the configuration here, it almost looks like the two headlights of a car with a little part of the taillight behind it.

02:08:41.760 And I'm not saying that's his car with the lights on, but for the car I've been driving by.

02:08:45.920 But there are other pictures I see brighter lights back there, too.

02:08:48.640 That could be from a house.

02:08:49.720 So I would want to see that, of course, blown up.

02:08:52.100 It doesn't mean that car is involved in anything, just a very coincidental car having to go by.

02:08:56.880 But this also could have been, as you just said, Megan, some kind of a casing.

02:09:00.260 If these aren't timestamped, these particular pictures of some other time that this person came to the house, a dry run, so to speak, how close he could get.

02:09:10.760 But I just can't tell if the backpack's on or not and different configuration of the mask, whatever.

02:09:16.060 But to come in that time of night, come twice, would really increase your risk level.

02:09:21.640 And especially if they think they're captured on this video.

02:09:25.280 But then you come back a whole other night.

02:09:26.820 Of course, it could have just been an hour before.

02:09:28.820 And then that's what the guy then geared up afterwards back to the car, put all the gear on the gun, then came to the house and said, all right, it's go time.

02:09:36.320 Or could that have been afterwards?

02:09:37.600 I mean, yeah, could that, two thoughts.

02:09:41.340 First, I can't tell where this person is in that image where you can't see the straps.

02:09:46.360 I can't tell if he's within the archway or outside on the walkway.

02:09:50.060 If he is outside on the walkway when you can see the lights, that was February 1st.

02:09:56.020 It was one of the biggest full moons of the year.

02:09:58.160 And it was like daylight out almost that night.

02:10:01.920 Number two, well, now I forgot the second.

02:10:05.680 Could he have been with somebody else?

02:10:06.800 Could it have been someone else?

02:10:09.220 Or do I don't know, like, I don't know whether it was him or somebody else possibly getting on here because that picture doesn't have flashlight in the mouth.

02:10:17.460 It doesn't have flashlights or reflective tags up here on the top backpack.

02:10:22.160 It doesn't have a backpack at all.

02:10:23.680 It doesn't have a weapon.

02:10:24.660 It's like, I don't know what that is.

02:10:26.300 And frankly, we're not going to be able to figure it out because Cash hasn't given us.

02:10:29.460 Here is what this is.

02:10:30.620 Here is what that is.

02:10:31.500 Here is what the he's just trying to help us identify.

02:10:34.240 He's trying to get us to help him identify this dude.

02:10:37.380 And what about the backpack?

02:10:38.660 Because I have to say, it is pretty darn distinctive.

02:10:41.020 It's not your run-of-the-mill backpack.

02:10:44.060 So back to the whole purpose of releasing this stuff.

02:10:47.220 I mean, there is—it's possible that somebody's sitting there with a husband or a brother or a cousin or, you know, whatever, who's got this backpack in the corner.

02:10:59.480 They don't always throw everything away, right?

02:11:01.860 I mean, Maureen, you've investigated so many of these crimes, like the drug dealers, whatever.

02:11:05.760 They don't always just dump it all in the dumpster.

02:11:09.060 Sometimes they'll keep—it looks like an expensive backpack, for example.

02:11:12.220 Oh, yeah.

02:11:12.560 If they're cheapskates, trust me, people getting popped because they're cheapskates is a real thing.

02:11:17.780 And that—you're right, that backpack is distinctive because the straps are a contrasting color, it appears, to the actual backpack, which isn't—you know, unless the straps—they seem very thin at the bottom and a contrasting color.

02:11:36.220 But it's hard to tell color in a black-and-white photo in the middle of the night, you know?

02:11:41.740 Mm-hmm.

02:11:42.540 Megan?

02:11:42.940 People online are debating whether this was not a flashlight in the mouth, but like a grill, like a gold tooth.

02:11:52.600 I was thinking—that was the first thing.

02:11:53.920 When you said that the teeth flashed, I thought of gold teeth.

02:11:57.680 No, but if you look at the one image, though, the light beam goes down on the pavement in front of—I don't think that's the one.

02:12:04.680 Yes, that's right.

02:12:05.200 There it is.

02:12:06.100 You can see it light up.

02:12:06.940 A gold tooth wouldn't do that.

02:12:07.600 No.

02:12:07.880 No.

02:12:08.860 And, Megan, real quick, can I go back to—

02:12:10.200 Here, listen to this.

02:12:11.120 Yeah, you go, Jim.

02:12:11.780 Just real quick, our discussion of yesterday of when President Trump was on Air Force One making an announcement that there may be a solution.

02:12:18.880 I believe we determined that was Friday.

02:12:20.560 I think we can timestamp ourselves.

02:12:23.800 That's when he was told we have video of this guy.

02:12:26.960 And the FBI has worked with this this whole time, which is fine.

02:12:30.260 No obligation, you know, on Friday to release it to the public.

02:12:33.800 But I think that's probably what he was talking about.

02:12:37.280 And he was careful not to stop sex, but he said solution.

02:12:40.020 So just it's important for this discussion that to know that the FBI, we can say Thursday night, Friday, that's when they got these videos out of this camera.

02:12:49.380 Cash told President Trump.

02:12:50.980 And that's when he said something on Air Force One.

02:12:53.980 Also, perhaps, to, you know, and the suspect could have, in fact, made some moves then, as we discussed, after the fact.

02:13:01.020 So, but that's probably how long they've had these videos to try to do everything they could.

02:13:05.000 It does make you wonder why they went back to the sister's home on Saturday night for three hours taking pictures in the dark.

02:13:10.180 Like, like, why?

02:13:12.700 Why would you go back there?

02:13:13.580 Why are you taking pictures in the dark for three hours?

02:13:17.480 You could have gone during the day.

02:13:18.920 The media is there day and night.

02:13:20.500 So you're not avoiding them.

02:13:22.720 What are you doing?

02:13:23.600 I mean, they did it with consent.

02:13:25.200 The family pointed that out.

02:13:26.240 They gave their consent for it.

02:13:27.280 Which is a problem to me.

02:13:28.520 I would, I'm not comfortable with a consent warrant just because it's so easy to challenge anything you find.

02:13:33.600 It's so much better to have a judicial warrant.

02:13:35.380 But I, I understand exactly.

02:13:37.300 So maybe, maybe that's a point in his figure, Maureen, in his favor.

02:13:40.160 Maybe that's a point in his favor that, like, the cops, they're not worried about a warrant because it's not that kind of search.

02:13:46.440 Yeah, Maureen, you want to finish your statement there?

02:13:48.380 I was just going to say that, you know, when you're doing a search in the dark, you're, you're usually using luminol or something.

02:13:55.140 And you, it is dark.

02:13:56.740 And you do have to photograph it while it's luminescing.

02:14:00.320 You know, that's, you have put up scales and you, and you take your photographs.

02:14:04.120 And that's, that's your evidence that you take out of there.

02:14:07.140 It's actually just photographs.

02:14:08.600 However, you usually have a tripod so that you can make sure that it's perfectly still because you need to see what the blood pattern look like, directionality of the blood stains, et cetera.

02:14:20.080 So I didn't see anyone go in with the tripod, but I guess somebody may have, I, I secreted it.

02:14:27.720 I don't know.

02:14:28.600 Maybe they don't use a tripod there.

02:14:30.820 I'm not really sure.

02:14:31.740 Or, so it's still a mystery.

02:14:33.620 Would they have been in, in like hazmat suits or anything like that, Maureen, if they were doing luminol?

02:14:38.100 Would they have looked different?

02:14:40.060 Not always.

02:14:41.360 It didn't really look like a CSI team to me at all.

02:14:44.720 And carrying in such a small amount of gear made me question that.

02:14:48.760 But something you could easily do without much gear at all would be oblique lighting if you're looking for just that vegetation or something that they, something else that we know nothing about that they have information on.

02:15:00.780 But as far as looking for blood pattern, blood, blood, you'd think they'd have more gear, but I could, I guess I could be wrong.

02:15:10.560 I mean, just the fact that they didn't turn on the lights is just so, so interesting.

02:15:14.660 If you put the blood like that with the luminescent, you're going to, it's going to be in the dark.

02:15:17.680 It's got to be in the dark.

02:15:19.480 I'm going to go to you in one second, Jim, but this is just in from NBC.

02:15:22.340 The Guthrie family was notified about the images shared by the FBI, but there is nothing the family or law enforcement or so far anyone recognizes in terms of who this person might be.

02:15:33.780 Because there was no recognition, the FBI chose to post the images and videos publicly in the hopes that someone may recognize this individual or the clothing or the items that are seen, which could lead to a break in the case.

02:15:46.100 That's interesting.

02:15:46.660 So they had already shown it to the family and they did not recognize anything about them.

02:15:53.520 I mean, which is just so, that's even more eerie.

02:15:55.600 I just can't get over the fact of like, I mean, it's truly, I don't know what every guy's worst nightmare is, but it's every woman's worst nightmare to have that guy at the foot of her bed with a weapon.

02:16:06.220 Like, I think we've all had that fear as we've gone to sleep, especially if the husband's away or, you know, your parents are away when you're a young, you know, co-ed in college and you're home for a visit.

02:16:16.200 It's just, that's what the nightmare is.

02:16:19.180 And the nightmare showed up to Nancy Guthrie's home, this vulnerable 84-year-old woman who's, you know, her husband wasn't there to protect her.

02:16:27.840 He had died 40 years earlier.

02:16:31.000 She was a widow.

02:16:31.900 She had to raise these three kids on her own.

02:16:34.780 You know, her daughter goes on to become this famous, successful anchor.

02:16:38.640 She's done it.

02:16:39.300 She's got three kids launched who seem happy and the son's a fighter pilot.

02:16:43.500 The other daughter's a poet and seems, I guess, happily married.

02:16:46.760 And this is how it's going to end.

02:16:49.960 You know, this is, this is going to be the final chapter of your life. 1.00

02:16:53.860 This fucking derelict madman in your bedroom with a gun and a backpack telling you to get up. 1.00

02:17:00.480 Who's apparently ready to beat you into submission because there's only one way Nancy Guthrie began to bleed. 1.00

02:17:06.580 Megan, you have no idea.

02:17:07.180 I'm sorry, it's just so dark and it's so infuriating.

02:17:08.940 You have no idea how people in law enforcement just dream in response to that nightmare.

02:17:14.540 Dream that we aren't, we just didn't happen to be standing right there where we could just, you know, defend her.

02:17:22.540 Yes.

02:17:23.180 You're being polite when you say defend her.

02:17:24.320 I'll bet.

02:17:24.760 You've got that gun for a reason.

02:17:26.280 A couple of things here, Megan, it's interesting that it's just finally showing some more videos.

02:17:32.800 The mask reminds me of the Zodiac killer's mask.

02:17:35.720 No, this is not the Zodiac killer doing this, but someone who may have emulated that type of mask.

02:17:40.520 Of course, they've been used before and other types of crimes, but, you know, there's other versions of that.

02:17:45.460 It's not really your, even your classic ski mask, the way it's set up.

02:17:48.800 It's almost a mask specifically for committing violent crimes of some sort.

02:17:52.660 The other thing is, and you mentioned about Annie's search the other night.

02:17:55.780 Could that have been a misdirection on the part of the FBI?

02:18:01.340 As a profiler, I would work with our agents and other law enforcement all the time.

02:18:05.720 When you have a suspect or multiple suspects and you want them to think one thing, that maybe they're in the clear.

02:18:11.920 So then you go and do some other search.

02:18:13.700 You do something very obvious.

02:18:14.880 And I won't say you have to include the Guthrie family in on this, but just say, hey, for our purposes, we want to come here one more time.

02:18:22.860 They may have already showed them the photographs at this point in time.

02:18:25.940 They said nothing here.

02:18:27.060 So it's a long shot.

02:18:28.900 But I'll tell you, if I was a profiler working this case with them and I said there's someone out there that may be destroying evidence, let's show him we're still looking in some other directions.

02:18:37.320 Let's show them that we're still considering this, you know, this extortion amount from wherever it's coming from and make him a little bit more relaxed.

02:18:45.600 And hopefully it helps Mrs. Guthrie if she's still alive, too.

02:18:48.320 So just just throwing that out there as a possibility.

02:18:52.600 What about the possibility of murder for hire?

02:18:57.480 You know, is that possible?

02:18:58.780 Like this guy, casual, doesn't seem particularly worked up, but the fact that he's about to, at a minimum, scare the hell out of a nice old lady.

02:19:09.340 He knows what he has to do.

02:19:10.920 He's got his backpack to get her out of the house.

02:19:13.540 I mean, that, you know, you guys were saying, like, the kidnads for a ransom, they don't really happen.

02:19:17.860 They happen in Mexico, but they don't really happen here.

02:19:20.360 Does murder for hire of an 84-year-old happen here?

02:19:24.860 If that's the case, it's an elimination murder, someone that's in the way of something you want or something that you feel entitled to.

02:19:34.880 And who benefits from that?

02:19:36.680 Yes.

02:19:36.840 So we have to go back to that.

02:19:39.240 That would probably be someone close.

02:19:40.160 Okay, but let me ask you that.

02:19:41.360 Okay.

02:19:42.080 Now, that's a good point.

02:19:43.340 And I began the show talking about some of this, Jim.

02:19:45.440 Um, they, I, my questions were, you'd want to know if she had a life insurance policy and who gets paid what from it.

02:19:53.840 You'd want to know if she has a will and who gets paid what from it.

02:19:57.300 I don't, I don't know how much money Nancy Guthrie has. 1.00

02:20:01.220 Frankly, her house is worth a million dollars.

02:20:02.960 Um, you'd want to know who, who gets the house, uh, when she dies.

02:20:07.420 I, I imagine her mortgage is paid just because she's been in it since 1992, I think they said.

02:20:11.940 Um, and I'm sure it wasn't a million dollars when she bought it.

02:20:14.160 You know, it's, that's what it's worth today.

02:20:16.160 But, you know, a few 84-year-olds born in that generation keep a mortgage if they don't absolutely have to.

02:20:21.560 But in any event, you'd ask who she was a burden to, right?

02:20:24.860 Like how much did Annie and Tommaso have to do to help the mother-in-law?

02:20:28.860 That would obviously be a potential motive as you're looking at everybody.

02:20:32.200 Um, but they know all this by now.

02:20:35.460 Like the police know who stood to benefit financially.

02:20:38.520 If anybody, um, what the life insurance policy was, you know, who, who were the beneficiaries of that?

02:20:45.120 They, they almost, almost certainly have also looked at the phone records by now, right?

02:20:49.800 Now we're 10 days later.

02:20:51.500 Don't you think they've gotten the phone records back from the family members who live down the road

02:20:56.420 and anybody else who they might know is in the sphere, like the people who come into the house every day.

02:21:01.200 They probably checked all that.

02:21:03.020 Maybe the car records.

02:21:04.280 They probably know if, if any of those people has, has money problems too.

02:21:07.960 Absolutely.

02:21:08.360 Like who's in debt, right?

02:21:10.640 Like, don't you think 10 days in, they'd know a lot of that stuff, Maureen?

02:21:13.220 Exactly.

02:21:13.980 And to your point, when you, when you're looking at who, who, who gains or, or who's going to win

02:21:18.820 in a situation like this, the, the inverse of that is who's in a state of desperation that

02:21:25.440 would really need the money, you know, and that could be anyone that gambles a lot or,

02:21:30.080 you know, has huge debt because of their only fans obsession or who knows what people, people

02:21:36.620 are into all kinds of crazy stuff.

02:21:38.720 Maybe someone bets on football and loses big thousands and thousands of dollars and

02:21:43.740 they just can't pay it.

02:21:45.240 I mean, even if you're, if you're not in that inner circle, but you're on the second

02:21:49.380 circle or, or, you know, you might, when you need money fast, your, your mind goes to strange

02:21:55.260 places.

02:21:55.820 Well, and the other thing is that they will have seen you, Jim, you mentioned this earlier

02:22:01.780 this week.

02:22:02.380 They will have seen, again, I'm, I'm like ruling people out.

02:22:07.300 Like the fan, not, we can't rule anybody else.

02:22:09.320 We don't know anything, but like with the immediate family, for example, you were saying

02:22:14.000 they're going to know what that person searched for on their phone, you know, like how to get

02:22:20.520 rid of a body, that kind of thing.

02:22:21.960 Like the, the, the FBI by this point knows that you think you may be able to delete a

02:22:26.500 phone, but you may not.

02:22:27.500 Here's Chad Ayers, by the way, Chad's joining us.

02:22:29.640 He's former SWAT leader in Greenville, South Carolina.

02:22:32.060 Chad, thank you for coming back on.

02:22:33.880 I'm going to get to you in one second, but just wanted to say hi.

02:22:36.580 They're going to know all that.

02:22:37.760 And so clearly I think, can't we deduce Jim that as far as like immediate family, they've

02:22:43.700 probably, can we reduce, deduce that they've ruled them out because they've probably seen

02:22:48.940 the phones, they've probably seen the search history, they've, um, they've probably seen

02:22:55.480 the financial incentives, if any, and they are not making arrests.

02:22:59.320 They're looking at all of us saying, who the hell is this in the mask?

02:23:03.440 I'll tell you, I learned as a rookie police officer, certainly detective in Ben Salem

02:23:08.020 Township, working a few homicide cases, free internet, free cell phones.

02:23:12.800 Uh, you learn so much about, uh, a victim and his or her extended family in doing your

02:23:21.140 investigations.

02:23:21.940 You can still get phone records and all back then, of course, most all landline.

02:23:26.160 Uh, but there is so much to learn and you have to sit down with them and say, tell me

02:23:31.100 the truth, sir.

02:23:31.880 Were you having an affair with anyone or Mrs.

02:23:34.300 So-and-so were you having an affair?

02:23:35.980 I'm not putting this on when Nancy Guthrie, but there may have been some things in the closet

02:23:40.420 of the Guthrie family they didn't necessarily like talking about, but, uh, they had to bring

02:23:44.120 up and, and Maureen threw them all out there, you know, gambling, OnlyFans, porn, you know,

02:23:48.460 whatever it may be, where it could have been something, you know, a lot less, uh, uh, you

02:23:52.940 know, obvious than that, but they're going to have to say, please tell us the truth to

02:23:56.220 the investigators say, please tell us the truth.

02:23:58.080 We're not out to harass you for this stuff, but we have to be able to limit who are the suspects

02:24:02.320 in this case.

02:24:03.000 So you do learn an awful lot about someone when you get, you know, uh, when you're privy to

02:24:08.500 their, all their phone records, financial records, and of course their admissions, uh,

02:24:12.840 because I'm not supposed to lie to the FBI, because that's a charge right there, uh, uh,

02:24:17.100 that you could be arrested for.

02:24:18.420 So, uh, they know everything, uh, Megan to, to summarize here about this family, I would

02:24:23.160 think at this point, and no one's had handcuffs put on them yet.

02:24:27.000 That's a clue that at this time, at least it's outside of the direct family.

02:24:32.140 Then who knows, you know, the third level, fourth level friends of friends where that part

02:24:36.120 comes in, but no handcuffs yet.

02:24:38.660 They're not prime suspects at this point.

02:24:40.920 Megan, quickly before we move on right now.

02:24:44.200 Yeah.

02:24:44.400 Yeah.

02:24:44.700 Go ahead, Maureen.

02:24:45.500 A lot of times when these people are doing their searches, everyone knows now that your

02:24:49.700 phone is, you know, has all this information.

02:24:51.880 They're going to local libraries.

02:24:53.420 They're using other people's phone, um, um, devices.

02:24:57.220 Like someone may have, um, uh, you, you don't know whose, whose devices they're using essentially

02:25:04.020 is what I'm going to say.

02:25:04.860 I'm not going to say much more than that, but.

02:25:06.380 Mm-hmm.

02:25:07.500 Mm-hmm.

02:25:08.240 Yeah.

02:25:08.540 I was just listening to a Dateline, which is a, you know, pastime, um, NBC, of course,

02:25:13.760 where they were talking about, it was a guy who had his wife killed and his alibi was he

02:25:18.700 was at a poker game the night that she was attacked and they checked his phone to see

02:25:23.260 if he had called anybody and he hadn't.

02:25:25.800 But then as the noose tightened around the husband, one of the people who was at the poker

02:25:31.700 game, who was hosting the poker game, remembered the wife of one of the guys said, he asked me

02:25:36.860 if he could borrow my phone.

02:25:38.440 And they looked at her history and it was clean.

02:25:40.780 He hadn't called anybody, which they found suspicious.

02:25:45.120 Now that didn't exonerate him to the contrary.

02:25:48.160 They knew he had borrowed her phone and now they knew he had cleared her history.

02:25:51.880 And, um, you may be able to delete it from the, from like the phone, the actual phone,

02:25:57.420 but you can't delete it from the phone record.

02:25:58.820 And they, this guy was clever enough to use somebody else's phone to do his dirty work.

02:26:03.700 So yeah, you're right.

02:26:04.520 Some people find an end around Jim.

02:26:06.300 I know you've got to go fits.

02:26:07.680 We'll see you again.

02:26:08.680 I'm sure very soon.

02:26:10.040 Thank you for coming on so quickly, Chad.

02:26:12.180 We haven't heard your take on the stunning tapes and pictures that cash Patel just released

02:26:17.560 your thoughts.

02:26:18.840 Yeah, Megan, I, here I was doing a webinar for my company and my phone's blowing up and

02:26:23.940 I slid off for a second and look, I said, Oh my God, um, things that I would

02:26:28.680 like to see.

02:26:29.640 And I'm sure, and I know the Bureau is already doing what their unit is obviously enhancing

02:26:35.140 some of these photos, uh, that holster that he has on with that handgun at the front.

02:26:40.600 That's a very unique looking holster as well as, you know, the, the backpack.

02:26:45.140 So if they can start in, you know, as they go and start enhancing some of these images,

02:26:49.700 um, maybe it's someone, cause now obviously, you know, gun stores around there.

02:26:54.000 Hey, listen, we sell this type of holster.

02:26:55.920 Uh, we sell this type of backpack.

02:26:57.480 Plenty of people have been caught.

02:26:59.640 Uh, you, you mentioned Dateline.

02:27:00.900 How many times do they go back and pull surveillance footage from a, you know, Ace Hardware, Home

02:27:05.840 Depot, where the guy was buying bags of lime, a shovel and rope.

02:27:10.440 Um, so again, I think that it is quite alarming.

02:27:13.740 I know pictures, um, several questions have come up about the flowers or the weeds that

02:27:18.780 he pulled.

02:27:19.700 Part of me, he wonders if, if he was trying just to cover up the camera so there was not

02:27:24.780 a disconnect.

02:27:25.320 Um, that's what we think too.

02:27:27.880 Yeah.

02:27:28.040 Sorry.

02:27:28.580 Yeah.

02:27:28.840 And then I agree.

02:27:29.680 I think that he probably put a flashlight in his mouth to, to look at that.

02:27:33.220 And I apologize if this is some of the stuff y'all have already discussed, but no, it's

02:27:36.580 fine.

02:27:36.860 But obviously, you know, looking at the sneakers, enhance those sneakers.

02:27:40.340 Listen, somebody knows this person, somebody knows who they are and whether or not they 0.99

02:27:45.700 say, oh my God, shit, that's uncle Bill. 0.98

02:27:48.280 He wears, he wore that backpack, you know, when we went hiking a few weeks ago or, or whatever. 0.99

02:27:53.080 Um, and the, the jacket, all these things are going to be clues and, and the bureau and

02:27:58.860 there's so many resources out here now, Megan, that they can find out the manufacturer who

02:28:03.160 in that, who in that area carries this brand of jacket, who sells this brand of backpack.

02:28:07.220 Um, and again, same thing with looking at cell phone data and, and search history, you

02:28:12.700 know, did he, did, did anyone, uh, in the family buy a backpack recently, anything like

02:28:17.700 that, but they gave it, it's almost just enough just to like frustrate us even more.

02:28:24.580 Yeah.

02:28:25.240 But thank God we have these images.

02:28:26.920 It's so it's all I can think is the most important thing that happened in Nancy Guthrie's

02:28:32.740 life prior to what happened last Sunday was the moment we, we read her comment in 2021

02:28:38.840 online saying, I really want to buy a nest or a ring camera to help me watch for wildlife.

02:28:45.820 Can anybody recommend one?

02:28:47.800 Thank God she did.

02:28:49.140 Thank God she did that because honestly, this is the best thing.

02:28:52.560 This may be just about the only thing we have to go on now.

02:28:55.260 It's the first promising lead, at least that we know of.

02:28:59.560 Um, and it's, they've got him red handed.

02:29:03.060 I mean, they have got the guy red handed and don't you feel, I mean, Chad, what do you think?

02:29:07.680 I feel like now it's only a matter of time until they catch him.

02:29:12.520 The FBI is so good that this case has gotten so much exposure.

02:29:17.000 Savannah's notoriety as a public figure is a blessing right now, at least because everybody's

02:29:22.840 interested in this case, the picture is going to be everywhere.

02:29:26.720 And you're right.

02:29:27.980 If it's a wife, for sure, the wife is going to know the build, the eyes, the mustache, 1.00

02:29:33.660 the jacket, the sneakers, and the gate.

02:29:36.900 Then if you go out and the backpack and, and the gun.

02:29:40.400 And Marie, does it look like, it almost looks like a revolver to me.

02:29:43.800 No, I think it's a, um, I think it's a semi-automatic and it's in one of those that it's in

02:29:48.980 one of those soft side, but it's on the outside of his pants with that.

02:29:54.740 I don't know what that black strap is, but my husband has that same holster.

02:29:58.380 Um, and it's, it's a longer barreled weapon than like a compact.

02:30:03.280 Okay.

02:30:03.780 Cause I was going to say what it is.

02:30:05.300 It's kind of an amateur move to use a semi-automatic, you know, because you risk for getting to pick

02:30:10.820 up a shell casing.

02:30:11.500 If there was some type of firearm use, I would assume that you, if you are a professional,

02:30:17.260 you would use a revolver.

02:30:18.700 So there's no shells being dropped or anything like that.

02:30:21.720 Oh, Oh, I just learned something about how to commit crime that I didn't know before.

02:30:26.340 That's hopefully we don't teach anybody else.

02:30:29.780 Yeah.

02:30:30.280 I don't, I don't, well, I think she lived in such an isolated area that she, the, the person,

02:30:34.780 I don't know that anybody would have heard a gunshot had one got off.

02:30:37.720 And before you got here, Chad, we speculated about how thick that backpack is and how much

02:30:42.600 was stuffed in there.

02:30:43.880 Could he have possibly put a tarp in there?

02:30:45.900 You know, might he have done the worst while in the house and maybe the, just the blood

02:30:50.960 was dripping from, you know, a murder victim, uh, as he got her out of there.

02:30:55.600 We don't, we don't know, but look, everybody looking at those blood drops has just armchair

02:31:01.480 concluded.

02:31:02.500 It looks like it was not a lot of bleeding and it looked like it may have just dropped

02:31:07.200 straight down.

02:31:07.860 Like the, there's not a smear.

02:31:09.520 There doesn't seem to be a projectile on the way the drops like are, are on the ground.

02:31:14.680 So we're assuming some sort of facial wound or something maybe to get her under control

02:31:19.160 as opposed to a body dripping with blood, having been shot, but clearly he was ready

02:31:23.740 for the worst.

02:31:24.340 Well, they were able to back in correct into this nest.

02:31:28.440 They used an outside party to, to kind of back in, to get these images.

02:31:31.960 Are we waiting on additional images from the other camera at the back door that we, we do

02:31:37.940 know that, that, that they had back there as well.

02:31:40.220 I wanted to get this in the white house has issued a statement.

02:31:43.520 It reads as follows.

02:31:44.500 The president encourages any American across the country with any knowledge of this suspect

02:31:48.180 to please call the FBI who continue to assist state and local authorities.

02:31:52.580 The prayers of the entire white house are with the Guthrie family.

02:31:55.760 I mean, that's yet another reason why it's only a matter of time.

02:32:00.560 You've got everybody from the FBI director to the president of the United States.

02:32:05.600 I mean, NBC is going to blanket this guy's pictures and you know, that's their, their nightly

02:32:10.680 news at least still has a decent size audience.

02:32:12.840 I'm sure their today show audience is inflated this week for obvious reasons, but everybody,

02:32:17.420 all the podcasts, like this is not your average case.

02:32:20.100 I can't remember a case with this much notoriety in recent history where we were all working

02:32:24.320 together to find a perp.

02:32:25.580 This guy's got a noose around his neck.

02:32:27.620 Maureen is just a matter of time before we tighten it.

02:32:29.860 I love it.

02:32:30.780 And he's backed into a corner and he's stressed beyond belief and he's freaking the hell out.

02:32:36.640 And good.

02:32:37.420 I'm glad.

02:32:38.200 I hope he suffers.

02:32:40.680 Same.

02:32:41.480 Don't you think Chad, like this guy right now, there is this man, this man exists.

02:32:45.360 This man has committed a terrible crime.

02:32:47.120 The exact nature of it we have yet to determine, but this guy knows this is happening just as

02:32:51.740 the three of us do.

02:32:53.020 And somewhere he's having a holy effing S moment thinking, what do I do now? 0.97

02:32:59.780 I bet he's really regret having that crusty ass mustache and thing under his lip that was 0.97

02:33:04.080 shown. 0.97

02:33:04.440 Cause that's going to be a tall tale sign to give him away.

02:33:07.420 Not too many people I know have those types of mustaches.

02:33:10.860 And, you know, someone's going to be looking at sitting at the dinner table tonight, looking

02:33:15.060 across being like, hmm, might be time to call 1-800-FBI.

02:33:19.680 Could you explain that to me?

02:33:21.140 What do you, what do you, I see, I can see he's got facial hair, but what exactly are you

02:33:24.780 referring to?

02:33:25.460 So there's another image where you see kind of, I don't even know what it's called.

02:33:28.940 What's it called?

02:33:29.600 The little small mustache kind of, or the little.

02:33:32.340 It's not exactly a goatee, right?

02:33:33.840 Yeah.

02:33:34.500 It's a patch.

02:33:35.540 What do you call it, Steve?

02:33:37.580 It's.

02:33:38.020 Some sort of a patch.

02:33:38.900 I don't want to use the term that was used in college.

02:33:41.280 A soul patch?

02:33:41.960 That's what we call it?

02:33:42.860 Okay.

02:33:43.180 My team is a lot hippier than we are.

02:33:45.980 Soul patch.

02:33:46.960 S-O-U-L. 0.99

02:33:48.420 Right.

02:33:48.840 So, I mean.

02:33:50.500 We'll try to get the picture up while you're talking.

02:33:52.260 But you can see it.

02:33:53.020 You can see that there's hair like that little round circle for the mouth and the ski mask

02:33:56.280 does reveal hair above and below.

02:33:59.980 Yeah.

02:34:02.060 I basically had to take the video and I had to pause it.

02:34:06.200 The video about, if you pause it about the two second mark and zoom in, you can see it.

02:34:11.340 Yep.

02:34:11.720 Right there.

02:34:13.280 Oh, this one?

02:34:14.200 Yeah.

02:34:15.000 Kind of looks like more of the little patch.

02:34:17.480 That's a good catch.

02:34:22.760 Yeah.

02:34:23.600 Yeah.

02:34:23.940 Which means he has facial hair above and below.

02:34:28.980 But I will say, not to bring it back to the brother-in-law, but he's got a beard and a

02:34:34.840 mustache.

02:34:35.320 And if you have just a beard, it can go all the way up there.

02:34:38.780 Like, I don't know.

02:34:39.660 We're only seeing a patch, but it doesn't mean it is only a patch.

02:34:43.760 Like, it could be full facial hair to the left and the right.

02:34:46.700 Because the mouth is just a circle, just cutting out, just like you just see the bottom of the

02:34:51.340 circle, what could be there.

02:34:53.540 Again, I'm not blaming the brother-in-law.

02:34:55.620 I'm just saying, because he's been mentioned so many times.

02:34:57.600 We're obviously looking at his facial hair.

02:34:58.980 Right.

02:35:00.680 So now what?

02:35:02.000 Like, if I think back with Tyler Robinson, who's accused of killing Charlie Kirk, it

02:35:07.860 didn't take long.

02:35:08.720 He felt the heat.

02:35:10.600 He saw that picture everywhere.

02:35:12.140 Now, in his case, they also had his gun, which was very distinctive.

02:35:15.760 But he panicked and he confessed.

02:35:19.040 His parents saw the sneakers.

02:35:21.580 You mentioned the sneakers.

02:35:22.440 They recognized those.

02:35:23.360 They recognized he had the hat.

02:35:25.320 His build.

02:35:26.500 Clearly, you know your child's build.

02:35:27.840 And this guy may have a mother out there who recognizes his build, too, even if he's not

02:35:32.140 married.

02:35:33.640 And they contacted him to say, the dad said, send us a picture of your gun.

02:35:39.060 Because the dad was really suspicious.

02:35:41.760 And he wound up confessing to his family.

02:35:47.540 And then they brought in a family friend who brought him into the cops.

02:35:50.440 So how do you see this going, Chad?

02:35:53.300 Probably about four different ways, I would say.

02:35:57.920 I think Maureen would agree.

02:35:58.940 You're either going to have this thing turn into a cold case.

02:36:02.440 Worst case scenario, we don't want to happen.

02:36:04.940 Two, he comes forward and says, the gig's up.

02:36:08.900 Maybe I'll get a lesser sentence, depending on what he's done with Nancy, whether she's

02:36:12.960 alive or deceased.

02:36:13.940 You know, I am getting charged, but maybe I won't see the death penalty if I come in

02:36:19.160 and confess.

02:36:19.940 Someone's going to recognize him and call in and report him.

02:36:24.340 Or the last case scenario, well, I guess there's two more in a sense.

02:36:28.920 Well, I guess the last case scenario is he self-terminates himself.

02:36:32.760 On a lives himself, which I hope doesn't happen.

02:36:38.600 Yes.

02:36:38.900 No. 0.99

02:36:39.720 Don't be a coward.

02:36:40.540 No, I hope it doesn't happen either, because then we're never going to know. 0.77

02:36:42.160 No.

02:36:43.060 Do you want to hear what I hope happens?

02:36:44.400 Then we're never going to know.

02:36:45.160 Best case scenario?

02:36:46.200 Yeah.

02:36:47.400 He starts acting crazy.

02:36:48.900 Everyone calls the police.

02:36:50.380 Seven people he knows calls the police.

02:36:52.620 Three departments arrive, all with police dogs.

02:36:55.800 They unleash the dogs who rip him to shreds on film, and we can all watch it over and

02:37:02.260 over.

02:37:03.760 Yeah, yes.

02:37:05.940 Yes, you want to see him suffer, but not without finding Nancy first.

02:37:09.340 I mean, like, there is still a scenario.

02:37:11.740 You look at Savannah's statement today, just immediately, you know, after the pictures came

02:37:15.560 out, we believe she's still alive.

02:37:17.840 Like, we are cynical law enforcement and news people who don't have a direct relation to

02:37:25.460 the victim.

02:37:26.100 So I think it's a lot easier for us to be like, the odds are she's no longer alive.

02:37:31.080 You know, we've covered enough of these stories or been involved in solving these cases that

02:37:35.580 that's where we went.

02:37:36.300 And Savannah, if she weren't so close to it, would probably be where we are.

02:37:39.820 But she has all cause to keep hope alive.

02:37:44.120 And we are not, we don't know.

02:37:47.480 We could be wrong.

02:37:49.040 Nancy Guthrie could be alive.

02:37:50.460 And this could be the guy who has her.

02:37:54.180 He, we don't know why.

02:37:56.400 We don't know why there wasn't a ransom if, assuming he wasn't connected to the Bitcoin

02:38:00.460 scam, why there wasn't a ransom, why there's been no demands.

02:38:04.560 There's been nothing whatsoever.

02:38:05.880 Hasn't even been like from a psycho.

02:38:07.180 I feel like from a psycho, we would have gotten Savannah, marry me, or like, I'm going to get

02:38:13.500 somebody else next, unless I get Savannah to do the following things.

02:38:16.760 Like the psycho can't really hold it together for 10 days, stay underground, make no demands.

02:38:22.480 You know, I don't, that, that's just feeling less likely to me.

02:38:27.220 Murder for hire.

02:38:28.480 And care for her. 0.96

02:38:29.080 That, that could be good because somebody's going to talk.

02:38:33.360 Murder, murder for hire requires a conspiracy with multiple people and someone could panic

02:38:39.060 right about now, given how the heat just got turned up and talk.

02:38:42.480 What, what were you saying, Maureen?

02:38:44.640 I was just saying that, is this the type of person that's going to feed and care for an

02:38:50.740 elderly person who's wounded?

02:38:53.240 I mean, yeah, those two don't seem to coexist to me, but I, I, I understand her believing

02:39:01.180 in miracles.

02:39:01.800 I would be, I would be on my knees, storming the heavens, praying for a miracle in a, in

02:39:08.080 a situation like this.

02:39:09.220 And I've prayed a lot for Savannah's mom.

02:39:13.800 Yeah, same.

02:39:15.520 We, we talked earlier this week with Jim about the kidnapping of the Exxon, um, president.

02:39:22.100 He was president of the company.

02:39:23.100 I actually learned more about that yesterday.

02:39:24.580 It was 1992.

02:39:25.400 And the guy was like a real regular Joe.

02:39:30.340 He didn't want a guard.

02:39:31.680 He didn't want to like live his life under, you know, security threat all the time, having

02:39:37.460 guard drive him and his wife out to dinner.

02:39:39.600 So he said no to that.

02:39:41.160 He drove himself around in a station wagon and, um, was pretty well known.

02:39:45.580 And they, they, the two kidnappers, one was former law enforcement and his wife, they moved

02:39:54.100 his newspaper down closer to the road that morning.

02:39:58.560 Cause he would come out of his house himself and grab his newspaper and they moved it closer

02:40:02.500 to the bottom of his driveway so that they could get him more easily.

02:40:05.780 And they grabbed him one morning that he did fight and they shot him in the arm and they

02:40:11.500 got him into their getaway vehicle and they put him in a box, like a, it sounded like a

02:40:17.560 casket, almost like a small box shot injured and then put the box in storage.

02:40:25.080 And I guess it got to like 120 degrees.

02:40:27.940 It was a very hot time of year and he died within four days.

02:40:32.160 Um, but they didn't tell the family that they kept the ruse going for some 54 days and it

02:40:38.860 was an $18 million demand and Exxon was going to pay it.

02:40:43.540 Like they, they wanted their executive back and they, but they were, they had no trouble

02:40:48.020 with proof of life, you know, and there was a negotiation.

02:40:50.960 Like they, there wasn't radio silence like this.

02:40:54.020 They did know that their charge had died, but they were playing the ruse to the end here.

02:40:58.820 There's been none of that, you know, none of that.

02:41:01.660 Like Clay, it's like radio silence other than the weird Bitcoin thing that, that offered

02:41:06.900 absolutely no proof of life.

02:41:08.600 And so what's the end game of this end game of this person?

02:41:12.880 It, it, it, it keeps leading me back to, this is about ending Nancy Guthrie.

02:41:17.880 It's not about getting a ransom payment.

02:41:23.080 I agree.

02:41:23.880 I, I, and, and the, the way he's, it's just very amateurish.

02:41:28.240 It just does not look like a trained professional type of assassin.

02:41:32.620 You, I mean, I, who carries their, their pistol like that?

02:41:37.360 Um, just, yeah.

02:41:39.020 I mean, it's just very, just kind of thrown together.

02:41:41.960 Um, on the, that's interesting.

02:41:45.600 Wait, Chad.

02:41:45.960 So you're, you're saying that like that, the way he has that pistol to suggest to you,

02:41:49.360 this is, this is, oh, one, I mean, unless he's just so professional, he's just trying

02:41:54.260 to throw everyone off to make it look that way.

02:41:56.820 But no, I, nobody straps the holster, you know, to them like that.

02:42:03.220 Now, granted, now, if you're carrying concealed, I, I carry personally concealed, you know, in

02:42:09.400 my appendix area, but I wouldn't carry an open carry firearm like that, hook my holster

02:42:14.660 to the front.

02:42:15.180 That's just not a way someone carries.

02:42:17.140 That's not a standard practice to carry a firearm at all.

02:42:22.920 Clearly the guy was not worried about the neighbor seeing him, Maureen, without,

02:42:26.820 a ski mask on and his gun visible to all with his gloves in the middle of a Tucson evening.

02:42:34.280 Like he, he knew that these are acre lock, acre, you know, size properties.

02:42:39.000 And at two 30 in the morning or one 47, the odds were against people seeing him, but it's

02:42:44.060 still pretty risky.

02:42:46.360 I don't think it's that risky.

02:42:49.000 No, no, it's pitch blackout.

02:42:51.320 They have no streetlights.

02:42:52.600 They have, they don't even, they even discourage people from turning their,

02:42:56.820 porch lights on because they all want to see the stars.

02:42:59.960 It's, it's pitch black.

02:43:01.220 There's plenty of room.

02:43:02.380 I do think you'd be, if, if you fired around, someone would hear it though.

02:43:06.180 I, I, even though you have an acre, um, because I've, you know, I've been to a place in Wisconsin

02:43:13.960 a lot.

02:43:14.580 I've spent a lot of time there and you can hear when someone's firing a weapon within

02:43:18.280 a couple of, you know, within an acre or two easily.

02:43:20.880 But if you have a fan on in your room while you're sleeping, you're not, you won't hear

02:43:24.080 anything.

02:43:27.540 There's been no reports of that whatsoever.

02:43:29.740 Nothing about a possible, possible shooting or hearing sounds of that.

02:43:34.960 There was, there were reports of increased coyote activity, but it was after the night that

02:43:44.500 Nancy died.

02:43:45.180 It was not, sorry, she didn't die.

02:43:47.060 It disappeared.

02:43:48.220 Um, it wasn't that night.

02:43:50.060 It was like several nights later.

02:43:51.560 So, I mean, it could potentially be related, but I don't know if you've ever had coyotes

02:43:56.880 around your house.

02:43:57.900 They, they, it sounds God awful when they're mating. 0.92

02:44:01.200 It's really sounds like some sort of a mass murder is happening outside your door.

02:44:04.760 Could wake up the whole neighborhood.

02:44:06.640 Doesn't mean anything's happening to a human.

02:44:08.380 What were you going to say, Chad?

02:44:09.140 Yeah, but it still takes us back, Megan, to, did he act alone?

02:44:14.700 Where's the vehicle?

02:44:15.620 Did he, was she conscious and, and, and just, you know, bleeding and he walked her through

02:44:23.760 the back of the house, through the front of the house.

02:44:26.320 You know, it's all crazy to me that there are no type of license plate cameras close to

02:44:33.300 that.

02:44:33.500 We, I know we have that information from a seven 11 or a circle K gas station, but where

02:44:40.580 was the car?

02:44:42.080 I mean, how do you, I'm telling you, like,

02:44:45.620 I, I consider myself a somewhat of a fit individual, but let's just take an 84 year

02:44:50.860 old woman. 0.58

02:44:51.400 Let's just say she was a hundred pounds and one person carrying someone like that, that 1.00

02:44:58.200 is severely injured or deceased is hard as hell. 0.74

02:45:02.100 I don't, it's very hard unless, and again, we would have a different type of 150 pounds.

02:45:08.840 I mean, find me someone that's going to comfortably carry.

02:45:11.720 We know, we don't believe she was, well, I would say pretty definitively by the blood

02:45:16.660 spatter we see on the front porch.

02:45:18.380 That is not a drag blood spatter. 0.93

02:45:20.300 Like I said, those are, those are a 90 degrees.

02:45:22.700 She wasn't dead by then.

02:45:23.120 No.

02:45:23.980 When that, when that pacemaker disconnected from the phone, she was alive or they would

02:45:29.240 have told us that.

02:45:30.240 They would know if she had died thanks to the pacemaker.

02:45:33.140 So I really do believe she was taken out of that house alive.

02:45:36.480 What's your, what's your theory, Maureen?

02:45:37.780 Well, my theory on the car is this, when, when, when we, you've got certain, whenever

02:45:42.740 you're looking for someone or you're, you're trying to figure out what cars were in the

02:45:46.400 area, you're, you're looking at the, at the choke points or the access and egress routes.

02:45:53.000 And so they looked at all those, they looked, they checked everything they did.

02:45:56.380 They geo-fenced the whole area, all that stuff.

02:45:58.940 Well, that, that means what?

02:46:01.000 It's, it's, there's the, there's an absence of something normal here or the absence of normalcy.

02:46:05.880 And what I mean by that is the car probably never made it out onto any of those major

02:46:10.100 roads.

02:46:10.740 Maybe it just took side streets to wherever it was going.

02:46:14.280 Yes.

02:46:14.740 And it parked there for a day or two or they lived nearby.

02:46:17.140 Someone with local knowledge.

02:46:18.220 Yeah.

02:46:19.840 So it was probably, probably a local or somebody very familiar with the local roads.

02:46:24.580 I mean, it could have been a Kohlberger situation where he'd been casing the joint for a while.

02:46:28.720 He knew the roads to take and which ones not to take.

02:46:32.060 I mean, if you, I've been watching some of the local coverage, there's local news coverage

02:46:35.180 out there of this case, just because it's always interesting to see what the locals have

02:46:38.420 to say.

02:46:39.060 And by the way, they did say that there was no proof of life in the second ransom note.

02:46:43.640 Harvey Levin was on something last night saying maybe there was proof of life in there.

02:46:48.540 There wasn't.

02:46:49.120 The, the, the local news outlet that received the second note reported, it's sister outlet

02:46:54.400 reported Arizona family.

02:46:56.060 There is no proof of life whatsoever in the second note, whatever you, it's not a ransom note.

02:47:02.120 But they had, they showed in the local coverage, the number of license plate readers, I guess,

02:47:07.700 and just cameras all over their traffic lights on the main highways there.

02:47:12.100 There's only, I think two of them and they're just, they're covered in cameras.

02:47:15.320 There's just zero chance you wouldn't have been seen.

02:47:17.700 They, they would go between two 30, two 28 in the morning and probably three 28 in the

02:47:21.620 morning and try to get license plates off of all those cars. 0.81

02:47:24.680 They, they would have done that last Monday.

02:47:26.920 But some of those candles are potential.

02:47:28.840 Some of those cameras are ticket cameras, not, um, and they only snap a photo when someone

02:47:33.700 is speeding through the intersection.

02:47:35.100 So some of them wouldn't, wouldn't do it.

02:47:37.480 But yes, there are, there are cameras on a number of those at a number of those intersections.

02:47:41.420 So if you were clever enough, you were local, then you took side roads and maybe they didn't

02:47:49.680 have, they didn't have any cameras.

02:47:51.680 That's why they're asking for, for example, people who have Teslas to check is I guess

02:47:56.920 your Tesla will turn on and start filming if somebody goes by it, which is awesome.

02:48:03.100 Um, and that's definitely the car that we're going to get our children now that I know that.

02:48:08.820 Uh, so they're asking Tesla owners or anybody who's got a nest cam or a ring cam that might

02:48:14.920 have, cause like you can go down the side roads, but the downside of the side roads is now you're

02:48:18.980 looking at nest cams and ring cams.

02:48:20.700 And we're back to that Superbowl ad that can even catch your lost dog.

02:48:23.740 No, why are you shaking your head?

02:48:24.900 Because it's too dark and the houses are, are, are set back.

02:48:28.420 And when it's that pitch black, as it is often in Wisconsin, you can't see that far at all.

02:48:33.940 I mean, and there's foliage in front and there's all those big, um, cacti in front of these houses

02:48:39.540 with large shrubs, you, uh, and they're raised up slightly from the road, uh, from, you know,

02:48:47.860 they had one of the, one of the, uh, one of the journalists drove by at night from one,

02:48:55.840 from Nancy's house to Annie's house and you couldn't see anything.

02:49:02.020 Yeah.

02:49:02.520 I think I saw that on CNN.

02:49:03.780 Well, here's a, here's a perfect example of those ring doorbells guys.

02:49:06.960 Um, and I'm Saturday night, I'm sorry, Friday night into Saturday morning at two 30 in the

02:49:13.260 morning, my dad's car truck was stolen from his driveway.

02:49:16.960 Um, he calls me, um, he's come to pick me up actually Saturday morning to take me to

02:49:21.320 pick up our car from the shop.

02:49:23.040 And he says, my car's gone.

02:49:25.080 And I said, well, was it unlocked?

02:49:26.940 Yeah.

02:49:27.280 I left it unlocked where the keys in it.

02:49:28.620 Yeah.

02:49:28.760 I left the keys in it. 1.00

02:49:29.500 Well, I'm like, well, you're a dumb ass. 1.00

02:49:30.980 But second of all, he goes, my ring doorbell did not pick up anything. 1.00

02:49:35.680 I have a ring doorbell that is, that is right there on the side.

02:49:39.540 So that basically they have a, you know, a double garage and they got a door that goes

02:49:43.400 in the middle and there's a doorbell right there, right where it was parked.

02:49:46.500 The only thing that picked it up, they also have external cameras that are, aren't ring

02:49:51.040 that are hardwired that, you know, you can watch.

02:49:53.440 And so we went upstairs, I rewound it.

02:49:55.880 And sure enough, at one 50 in the morning, see two guys approach from the wood line down.

02:50:02.220 They jiggle the handle of my mother's, uh, one of her spare cars that's outside.

02:50:06.780 They can't get it.

02:50:07.920 They go to my dad's truck, jump in.

02:50:09.460 They're gone.

02:50:09.920 Ring did not pick it up, but the other cameras did.

02:50:13.120 So again, the sensitivity on these things are really dependent.

02:50:17.600 Wow.

02:50:18.360 Here, my, um, team made an aerial for us of Nancy's house, which could help us understand

02:50:25.740 where the car potentially was.

02:50:27.100 I don't know if you guys can see this for the listening audience.

02:50:29.140 It shows Nancy's looks like a ranch home.

02:50:31.580 You guys have seen it on the news and picture a rectangle with a white roof and it's got

02:50:35.980 a semi-circle drive in front of it, uh, coming from the road.

02:50:40.720 And you can see the arched doorway, which is just so ominous to look at it right now, knowing

02:50:46.280 that terrible man walked underneath that archway and right into that front door, we believe,

02:50:53.340 or at least tried, uh, and maybe got in the back door.

02:50:56.940 But you can see there's like a little gravel walkway that takes you to the archway into

02:51:02.720 the home.

02:51:03.340 And then if you were to come out and keep going around the semi-circle, you would, you

02:51:09.080 could either complete the semi-circle to leave or the semi-circle where it begins on the right

02:51:13.720 also goes straight back.

02:51:16.140 Um, and so there's more parking and that's, I think the garage, well, I think that's the

02:51:21.860 garage over on the back, right.

02:51:23.140 It's not, it's not a separate unit, but that's, that's probably the pool house back there.

02:51:26.920 I'm not sure exactly what that separate structure is.

02:51:29.040 You're right.

02:51:29.500 Yeah.

02:51:29.740 Okay.

02:51:29.960 And so the car could have been like, even in the aerial that I'm showing on the screen,

02:51:36.100 there is a, uh, silver dark gray car over on the right that definitely would not have been

02:51:42.720 caught by a ring camera that's underneath that archway and back, you know, like there's

02:51:47.380 a number of places you can park here where you would not be caught by that ring camera.

02:51:51.700 Although I will say, I'm not sure about that roof camera, you know, that they pulled off

02:51:56.720 on Friday night.

02:51:57.280 That one, depending on where it was pointed, that could have gotten a car, um, well, that

02:52:01.740 was pointed down images of that.

02:52:03.760 That was pointed down into the backyard.

02:52:07.040 It didn't really look ripe for the, for that, but yeah, the, the car easily could have been

02:52:11.220 on this semi-circular driveway, not caught by the ring camera.

02:52:14.100 And therefore we can't really say, oh, he had to have help.

02:52:17.060 Like he could have done this by himself.

02:52:18.220 He could have pulled up.

02:52:18.920 He could have parked off to the side.

02:52:20.000 He could have sauntered in from here would be the right on the camera would be the left

02:52:25.300 and maybe couldn't get in.

02:52:28.140 You know, like if that's, that's one of the questions we have still sitting here, what

02:52:31.040 happened?

02:52:31.640 We didn't see him actually disconnect the nest cam, the neck nest camera.

02:52:35.640 We didn't see him succeed in the job he was trying to do, but the video magically stops.

02:52:41.260 So like, they're not showing us, they're not showing us a picture where he gave up and

02:52:46.860 walked off and then came around the back where they, they should have more images, shouldn't

02:52:52.180 they?

02:52:52.820 They should have more.

02:52:53.400 If he, if he used the back door, they should have more images of him from back there.

02:52:57.140 Right.

02:52:57.360 Megan, can we ask Chad about the, um, burglar door on the front of the house and, and how

02:53:02.600 he would, uh, how he would approach that or how he could breach that door because, and

02:53:06.660 how hard it is essentially, or are we done with that?

02:53:09.800 No, no, that's it.

02:53:11.980 We're not done with anything.

02:53:13.000 It's funny because, yeah, I did.

02:53:14.800 So actually, uh, I was talking to one of our homicide investigators who reached out to me

02:53:19.080 after, you know, seeing me, I think it was Thursday, um, after, you know, Megan posted

02:53:24.000 the show and she said, what's your thoughts on that door?

02:53:26.940 And I said, well, that, that storm door looks to be pretty solid.

02:53:31.940 We see iron or metal bars on the inside as a SWAT operator.

02:53:36.640 When we see these, you know, obviously we do our intelligence gathering before what kind

02:53:40.760 of our doors barricaded before we make entry, you know, are they fortified items like this?

02:53:45.760 If that storm door is locked, it is very difficult.

02:53:49.920 You're not just busting a panel out and ripping that door off.

02:53:53.520 So in a situation where in a law enforcement situation, hostage type of situation, if we

02:53:58.360 were trying to make, first of all, we would never use that as the primary entry point,

02:54:01.680 but if we had to, we're going to have to hook some type of, you know, cable to our armored

02:54:06.760 truck and rip that thing off. 1.00

02:54:08.500 I mean, that's a, it appears from, it is a pretty solid door, but again, not everyone,

02:54:13.260 maybe she locked the main door, you know, on the inside and the handle that this one is

02:54:17.620 unlocked or being that old, maybe she has more, you know, I lock all my doors.

02:54:22.140 Um, I'll be honest, guys, my storm door at the house isn't, it doesn't stay locked.

02:54:26.940 It's, it's the main door that I lock.

02:54:28.800 Um, but again, that, that would be, I think that's why we see that disconnect.

02:54:33.800 And then it sounds like, you know, Megan, didn't the sheriff, wasn't he pretty much saying

02:54:38.300 or confirmed that, or didn't someone confirm that the back door was primarily the one there

02:54:43.180 was forced entry on?

02:54:44.980 Ashley reported, Ashley reported that it was open, but the sheriff wouldn't confirm that.

02:54:50.360 And Ashley reported that both of the nest cameras, her, her word was destroyed.

02:54:55.540 The sheriff said disconnected.

02:54:58.040 Um, but either way, you know, we can see the man trying to disarm them or get them off.

02:55:03.540 So they, he would not confirm that about the back door, but it's, it seems like a crazy

02:55:08.180 thing to just pull out of the thin air, you know, like, oh, and by the way, the back door

02:55:11.660 was wide open.

02:55:12.380 And she did report that both, both nest cameras were gone and the sheriffs now confirm that.

02:55:18.280 So it seems to me, this guy could not get in that front door.

02:55:22.340 Maybe it was too tough.

02:55:24.200 And it seems also, he was not able to get those ring cameras off or those nest cameras

02:55:28.120 off, at least at that first sitting.

02:55:29.900 And that he probably walked to the back of the house and opened the door and he had more

02:55:37.040 success with that nest camera.

02:55:38.380 Maybe he figured it out in the back and then went back in the front and took those off once

02:55:43.020 he'd learned how to do it from the back.

02:55:45.500 And he definitely, nothing's definite, but very much seems to have brought Nancy out the

02:55:51.360 front door.

02:55:52.000 Right.

02:55:52.460 Which would have been much easier now because he's on the inside.

02:55:53.940 But it's closer to his car.

02:55:54.640 It still takes us back, guys, to this.

02:55:59.020 People are like, well, this is a burglary gone bad.

02:56:02.040 2026, people don't commit these types of burglaries, like in the middle of the night, like home

02:56:06.520 invasions.

02:56:07.240 It just doesn't happen.

02:56:08.780 There's something more.

02:56:09.960 This is a, I'm still sticking.

02:56:11.840 This was a targeted attack.

02:56:13.600 You know, we've got all the Twitter investigators out here right now or ex-investigators that are

02:56:18.000 commenting on everything, but that still, you're never, you're not convincing me that this

02:56:22.380 was just some random person trying to break into a house at two o'clock in the morning

02:56:26.700 and it went bad.

02:56:28.560 He had his gun on him.

02:56:29.480 People, also, people who commit burglaries, all right, burglary, home invasion, two totally

02:56:34.100 different things.

02:56:34.680 We're looking at robbery on one, you know, arm robbery, carrying a firearm.

02:56:39.840 This was some type of targeted attack.

02:56:42.820 Yeah, this, it wasn't a burglary.

02:56:44.820 I agree.

02:56:45.260 We talked a bit ago about how a burglary, I think he would have had a bigger bag.

02:56:50.440 Maybe his backpack was full of other bags that he was going to then open.

02:56:55.480 I don't, I doubt it.

02:56:56.700 And, and there's nothing, the police haven't said that anything was stolen.

02:57:00.900 Um, they don't think it's a burglary.

02:57:03.360 So, and I think generally burglars try to go to homes that don't have anybody in them,

02:57:07.540 including old ladies. 1.00

02:57:08.520 Right.

02:57:08.720 And if they find an old lady, they run, they don't kidnap the old lady.

02:57:13.120 Right.

02:57:13.280 You're not going to take her with you.

02:57:14.700 I mean, you talk about an albatross or, or, you know, a ball and chain.

02:57:21.920 Yeah.

02:57:22.400 Yeah.

02:57:22.640 And there's, there's no value to an 84 year old woman in, in any commercial market. 1.00

02:57:28.400 You know, of course I have a dear 84 year old woman in my own life. 1.00

02:57:31.380 I don't mean value net net.

02:57:33.180 She's got a lot of value, but there's, it's not like a baby that you can sell.

02:57:36.240 You know, I mean, a baby, brand new baby can be considered gold.

02:57:40.940 That's why most of us, when we have them, every single window is locked.

02:57:45.340 I mean, you know that when you've got a little baby, like you're extra careful to lock everything

02:57:49.400 in because you know, there are some very sick people who would love to steal your baby. 1.00

02:57:53.780 Um, even a child sadly is got sick value to, to very bad men, but an 84 year old woman doesn't. 0.99

02:58:02.500 So there's only one thing that makes sense to me, which is they knew who she was and they

02:58:09.180 either wanted to extort Savannah or they wanted to end her life.

02:58:15.700 And, and that why they removed her from the home in order to do that is one of the biggest

02:58:20.840 mysteries of this case.

02:58:21.960 I mean, it could just be it's cleaner. 0.95

02:58:25.280 You know, I want to get her out of the house and I'm going to take her life in the same place 1.00

02:58:30.160 that I, I meant to dispose of the body so that she's gone and we don't have to worry about it.

02:58:37.380 There's no clues left over and I've worn the gloves in here.

02:58:40.320 I've worn the hat, the mask, no one's going to know it was me.

02:58:43.380 And there's not gonna be any DNA on her or elsewhere to point to me.

02:58:47.760 I know, no bullet, you know, like we were talking about before bullets can be traced.

02:58:52.320 They can even have DNA on them.

02:58:53.840 Potentially there can be something that's identified to you.

02:58:56.020 Maybe he wasn't some expert at like scraping serial numbers off of anything, you know,

02:58:59.760 and he's like, it's just cleaner if I get her out and I, and I take care of her someplace else.

02:59:03.720 Now that we're back to all those motives.

02:59:05.500 Did they know her?

02:59:06.400 Did they hate her?

02:59:07.160 Did they hate Savannah?

02:59:08.380 Life insurance, will, financial burden, all that stuff.

02:59:12.660 I can't imagine a gardener she shorted on a tip is going through all this.

02:59:16.180 So it's either some sort of a hatred for Savannah or that one of the other kids or a hatred for Nancy or an obsession with, with Savannah potentially, or it's, they still want, they want ransom.

02:59:31.160 And like somehow the original plan to get it got foiled by crypto currency man last week.

02:59:38.720 Like you still got to have a big set of nuts on you to be able to take a woman and put her in the car when in the middle of the night at two o'clock in the morning, any proactive law enforcement officer that's out on the streets, you know, that's when I made big cases, you know, two o'clock in the morning when nothing's going on.

02:59:54.580 And all of a sudden you see car, a car, you know, it may pique my interest.

02:59:58.040 You're like, you're really risking a lot to put a body in a car and, and to drive off.

03:00:04.360 Um, and again, I know that there's been, Megan, we talked yesterday about grid searches and looking in the area about maybe did they dispose of her somewhere, but like, you've got to have a big set on you to put a woman in your car and to take off driving.

03:00:19.040 Don't know how far, whether it was two miles down the road or multiple miles, like every, every mile you go further, you're increasing your chance of getting caught.

03:00:28.040 Hmm. Yeah.

03:00:30.800 It's true.

03:00:31.360 And with her not wanting to be in the car, a cop comes by, anybody drives, even, even a regular person drives by you.

03:00:38.640 She can kick her feet up in the back seat or something. 0.91

03:00:41.080 And you're like, Whoa, what the hell was that?

03:00:43.080 You know?

03:00:43.360 And there's blood on her somewhere.

03:00:44.900 Yeah.

03:00:46.440 That's true.

03:00:47.580 But it's the desert, you know?

03:00:49.960 I mean, isn't the desert infamous for like, that's where the mob gets rid of dead bodies.

03:00:54.580 That's where the cartel gets rid of dead bodies. 0.75

03:00:56.560 You know, it's like, I mean, my, my knowledge of this is not vast, but I did see breaking bad.

03:01:01.620 But the desert seems like a place bad guys go to get rid of evidence of crimes, including human remains.

03:01:09.420 I don't know.

03:01:10.140 Would it really be so hard to find some very deserted area in the desert and, and dispose of her there?

03:01:16.200 But that's really rough terrain up to wildlife.

03:01:18.660 That's really rough terrain, Megan.

03:01:20.020 And I've done tons of grid searches out in the desert with ERT.

03:01:24.800 And it's, it's to every, people get hurt.

03:01:28.380 Everyone cuts their hands.

03:01:30.000 Just, I mean, it's just, you're just picking something up and then you realize it's a sharp part of a cactus.

03:01:35.400 And it's, it's just terrible and frightening.

03:01:37.660 The, the, all the statistics show that if, if there was a body involved, so let's not talk about Nancy per se, but in other instances where bodies are being disposed of, they're oftentimes, most often disposed right near the road.

03:01:53.020 Like within 10 to 30 feet from the road, because as Chad was saying earlier, because it's so difficult to move a dead body, unless you put them in a blanket or a tarp and drag them.

03:02:08.080 But even then you get tired very quickly, right, Chad?

03:02:11.240 I mean, 150 pound person dragging them, even dragging, I mean, think about that desert terrain and cactus and rocks and all this stuff.

03:02:23.520 Also think about, and again, I've spent minimal time.

03:02:27.080 I did a lot of training at a location out in New Mexico for explosives, but think about trying to dig a hole on desert soil.

03:02:38.320 Very difficult to do.

03:02:39.680 You're not taking your grandpa's shovel and digging a deep enough grave.

03:02:44.640 And if they're doing grid searches and they've had aerial footage up there and, and, and they're searching, you know, that immediate vicinity around that area, you know, I don't know what you're going to see, but it would be, it would take hours and hours to dig a deep grave on hard desert soil.

03:03:00.660 The smarter thing would be.

03:03:02.180 And now you're also.

03:03:03.600 Go ahead.

03:03:04.020 Yeah, go ahead.

03:03:04.580 The smarter thing to do would be to put foliage on top of the body, make sure whatever clothing she has isn't brightly colored, et cetera, put the dry foliage on top and let the animals do what they do. 1.00

03:03:16.000 That being said, that this offender will have cuts on their hands, even if they have had those gloves on.

03:03:24.980 So they had leather gloves on, but trust me, I've done, I've done this work with gloves and leather gloves, tactical gloves, latex gloves.

03:03:34.700 Every time I cut my hands, the only way you don't is if you have those hardcore heavy duty gloves designed not to get cuts while dealing with sharp stuff.

03:03:47.820 And I'm, and I think of it the more, and this is a local, there's like, if we're presuming this is a local, you know, with, with local knowledge of the roads and so on, what a hassle.

03:03:56.380 You know, it is easier just if you're going to commit a murder, just to leave the body in the spot, like in the house.

03:04:01.720 Like why, why take her?

03:04:04.360 Why, is there any reason to take her other than to ask for ransom?

03:04:09.140 No.

03:04:11.480 No, but if he is a local, I mean, I'm going to, I'm, I really am going to start going into, and I don't know how large of a town.

03:04:18.580 I mean, how big is Tucson?

03:04:19.640 I mean, I'm looking here, it looks like there's several Walmarts, but, you know, the gloves, that backpack, I'm going to start going to every Dick's Sporting Goods, Sports Academy, Walmart.

03:04:30.980 I'm going around with my team right now and walking through there.

03:04:34.460 Do y'all sell, you know, this color backpack?

03:04:37.480 Do y'all sell black rubber gloves?

03:04:39.500 Yeah, we do.

03:04:40.140 Pull up your inventory.

03:04:41.440 I mean, let's look.

03:04:42.900 Now, we're not saying that they went there.

03:04:44.120 Who knows?

03:04:44.880 Maybe they're dumb enough to, either way, whether you went online or, or somewhere else, still, you could probably, once they, I figure out the brand of this backpack, that's going to help. 0.93

03:04:54.760 Because I'm sure Amazon has ways that they can say, hey, we've sold X amount of these backpacks and this is where they were shipped to or whatever. 0.93

03:05:02.720 There's a lot, you know, in this, there's a lot in these images that gives law enforcement direction to start the next stage of this investigation.

03:05:13.400 Maureen, wouldn't you agree?

03:05:15.020 Lots of leads, but they're, they're black leather gloves, by the way.

03:05:19.540 Oh, they are.

03:05:20.080 Okay.

03:05:20.300 If I, if I misspoke.

03:05:21.560 Mm-hmm.

03:05:23.300 Um, we, we did take a look at the roof camera, uh, while we were talking, my team did.

03:05:28.680 And it is, it does appear that it's, uh, back, is it on the pool house, Deb?

03:05:34.740 But it's definitely, it's, it looks like it's on the pool house and it's oriented toward the backyard.

03:05:39.340 Um, which could be good.

03:05:42.180 I don't know.

03:05:42.720 I mean, if the backyard at all captures the back door, then there's a chance that they, that they got something off of that.

03:05:52.280 Though, again, it's not one of the pictures that's being produced by the FBI right now.

03:05:56.800 I imagine they're giving us everything they have.

03:05:59.060 Um.

03:05:59.460 Megan, is that a gate in the upper corner?

03:06:02.080 Is that a black gate to the left of the blue door?

03:06:04.580 Or, Deb, can you see?

03:06:08.860 I think it's a walkway, like a breezeway to get it into the house from what I.

03:06:15.500 Just basing, you know, could you, you know, I'm just trying to see how much coverage that camera, I'm just, I guess if we had backed, you know, it'd be better to see if it was backed down a lot further.

03:06:25.160 But, um.

03:06:26.980 Mm-hmm.

03:06:28.840 Well, at a minimum, there should be the same video of our masked man approaching the Nest camera that we have from the front one.

03:06:37.400 Sure.

03:06:37.720 If, in fact, he did go around to the back.

03:06:39.400 I mean, like, if Ashley's right and he dismantled both cameras and there was one in the front and one in the back, and we believe he probably couldn't have gotten through that storm door, um, and she's reporting there was forced entry, then there should be more video of this guy from the back Nest cam.

03:06:53.920 I mean, hopefully the, the company's working to retrieve that, too.

03:06:58.120 You know, maybe, maybe that's still under development.

03:07:01.280 We just, we just don't know.

03:07:02.720 But this guy's, look, we'll end with this.

03:07:05.900 He's in a panic right now.

03:07:07.240 He's out there.

03:07:07.980 He knows that the clock is ticking now, that they're going to get him.

03:07:11.740 Somebody knows him.

03:07:13.620 What's unfamiliar to us is going to be intimately familiar to probably more than one person.

03:07:18.780 And there may be something about him that's changed recently.

03:07:22.500 Like, did he shave off his mustache and his soul patch or beard in the past day, right?

03:07:30.480 Like, if, if, if right now he shaves, does he have sort of a weird gate? 0.70

03:07:35.260 Does he have a backpack that looks like that?

03:07:37.020 Have you ever seen him work by putting his flashlight in his mouth?

03:07:40.320 And does he have a weird one that doesn't, like, stick out the way, like, a normal tiny handheld flashlight would?

03:07:46.980 It seems to be some sort of a rectangle that he's got in there.

03:07:50.240 Not, not like your regular handheld tiny little flashlight.

03:07:54.460 Does he have a gun?

03:07:55.800 Is it potentially a Glock that's got the longer?

03:07:59.600 Barrel?

03:07:59.880 What, what, the barrel?

03:08:01.960 Thank you, the longer barrel on it.

03:08:03.260 Does he have gloves like this?

03:08:04.320 Does he, is he in Tucson, Arizona, which is so hot right now?

03:08:06.840 Brian Enten's talking all the time about how they, they need another smoothie.

03:08:10.240 He's dying of heat.

03:08:11.220 Yes.

03:08:11.720 And here's this guy.

03:08:12.680 I realize in the, in the desert, overnight it gets cold, but he's got what appear to be thick gloves and a fleece jacket on.

03:08:21.240 Um, in the long pants, like somebody is going to know this look and they're, they may even have seen a face mask, which is a very unusual thing in Tucson, Arizona, um, sitting around their roommate's room or in the Amazon cart.

03:08:41.680 Um, that's probably a recent purchase that, that face mask is probably a recent purchase from a store or an Amazon, all these things.

03:08:49.220 Someone's going to know, or the FBI is going to find, I do feel hopeful that it's just a matter of time.

03:08:54.200 And, and then we'll cuts on his hands.

03:08:57.700 Yeah.

03:08:58.120 Does he have cuts on his hands from being in the brush?

03:09:00.820 I mean, that's one thing, everybody who goes into the backyard of Nancy Guthrie, not like her immediate backyard, but her, the wild right behind her house, how many pricker bushes there are, how it's like treacherous back there.

03:09:12.720 And the Customs and Border Patrol has been walking back there with Brian saying, this is like dangerous.

03:09:19.380 Like if, if you don't know which plants to avoid, you know, you get all caught up back here.

03:09:24.740 That that's one of their skills is like finding people because they're experts on knowing what to stay away from and finding people caught right in the midst of these, you know, night, nightmare vegetation situations.

03:09:34.720 Um, and our hope would be, let's just say that the worst case scenario, unfortunately that Nancy's no longer with us and they discover her body.

03:09:43.140 Obviously, hopefully, um, if she put up some type of fight that they're able to pull, you know, DNA from under her fingernails or something like that. 1.00

03:09:52.140 Either way, like you said, Megan, um, that time's not on this guy's hands.

03:09:57.220 Your days are numbered.

03:10:00.240 Yeah.

03:10:01.060 Well, it's just a matter of time before we do a news alert saying he's been caught.

03:10:04.280 I just, I can feel it.

03:10:06.420 There's just, those pictures are too good.

03:10:08.440 They're actually really good, um, for, you know, surveillance cameras that you don't usually get them that good.

03:10:13.680 So that's hats off to the FBI and the sheriff's office for getting this stuff, uh, from back from the camera.

03:10:21.540 And you know what, to the nest camera people who appear to have been instrumental in making sure they had what they needed.

03:10:26.920 And now the rest of us have to do our job and do what Savannah asked us to, you know, keep an eye out, look for the unusual behavior.

03:10:33.160 And no matter how strange it may seem, how uncomfortable you are about calling.

03:10:37.380 I told the audience, I already called.

03:10:39.020 I called the FBI with a tip.

03:10:40.400 I like, don't, you're not a bother.

03:10:42.300 It's, it's up to them to decide what's relevant and what's not call because there are experts like you two sitting at the other end of the line eventually to whom,

03:10:50.580 what seems like a nothing could actually mean something.

03:10:53.740 Well, it's called the bystander effect.

03:10:57.140 Maureen, we really put you to work on your first day here on the Megan Kelly show.

03:11:00.240 Thank you so much for being here.

03:11:02.360 My phone's blowing up and I'm like, I'm still on.

03:11:04.640 And they're like, wait, what?

03:11:07.400 No, Chad's been, he's used to this by now, but thank you both so much.

03:11:11.300 And I'm sure we'll be seeing you again very soon.

03:11:13.160 Thank you.

03:11:13.520 My pleasure.

03:11:14.900 All the best.

03:11:15.460 Wow.

03:11:16.020 And thanks to our listening audience.

03:11:17.260 My God, here we are another day.

03:11:18.900 We really, originally today, our plan was to do Guthrie for the first hour.

03:11:23.160 And then we're going to bring on Andrew Clavin to do some other stories, second hour.

03:11:26.040 And then, you know, you know what happened.

03:11:27.980 And here we are three and a half hours later.

03:11:30.040 Thank you for listening.

03:11:31.040 Thanks for trusting us with the story.

03:11:32.560 And we'll see you again tomorrow.

03:11:37.020 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show.

03:11:38.860 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - February 10, 2026

Disturbing NEW Video and Photos Show Armed Mystery Man at Nancy Guthrie's House, with Phil Holloway, James Fitzgerald, and Maureen O'Connell ｜ Ep. 1249

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