Don Lemon has been charged with two felonies for his role in the now infamous ICE protest at City s Church in St. Paul, Minnesota during a Sunday service on January 18th. He claims he was acting as a journalist.
00:10:27.520It would be a criminal act of trespass.
00:10:29.980And every news organization, every single one out there right now that's saying this is an outrage, he did nothing wrong, absolutely knows this, but they are ignoring it.
00:10:38.200But Don Lemonade is in so much more trouble than that because he did not just trespass into somebody's private property, which a church is, absolutely is.
00:10:48.320He did not have an invitation to be there and he trespassed.
00:10:51.060He made the colossal blunder of doing it into a house of worship in the middle of a religious service.
00:10:59.700That was a colossal blunder because now you're talking about rock solid rights that the churchgoers have under the Constitution and under federal statutes not to be bothered while they're worshiping.
00:11:14.780And Don Lemonade is either too stupid or too rude to know that, okay?
00:11:22.040He either was too dumb to check with his very famous, very well-paid lawyer, Abby Lowell, before he did this colossally stupid thing, or he did know and he flouted the law intentionally.
00:11:31.900Either way, he's in a shit ton of trouble because you do have a constitutional right to worship in peace and you have a statutory right to do it under the FACE Act and the Klan Act, for that matter, all right?
00:11:46.080So he messed with the wrong group of people.
00:11:49.760I would have been in trouble had I gone into Crystal Mangum's house under the trespass laws.
00:11:55.040And he not only violated the trespass laws, he stepped in a whole host of other shit because it was a religious house in the middle of a service.
00:12:15.320I could not go into an abortion clinic as Megan Kelly journalist with a bunch of pro-lifers who were impeding women's access to the clinic.
00:12:25.740Even, they wouldn't have to be putting chains on the door into the surgery room if they were standing between an abortion seeker and the surgical facility, or never mind the abortion facility at large.
00:13:28.120So I'm sorry, but this is all just a head fake.
00:13:30.840Like, this, he's a journalist, he's a journalist, he's a journalist, I'm sorry, but he stepped right smack dab in the middle of mud that no journalist is allowed to step in.
00:13:38.920But putting that to the side for now, okay, we're going to debate it with an excellent, the best legal panel in a minute.
00:13:44.300But putting that to the side, the guy was an active participant, and he knew full well.
00:13:52.080He didn't just, like, say, oh, I guess, you know, I've been given a tip to show up to some unknown location.
00:13:58.080He knew all about what the organizers were planning to do inside this church.
00:14:02.860He willfully entered the church knowing full well that the disruption was planned.
00:14:09.900The first example is Lemon at the meeting site with the protesters, where he's kissing the organizer.
00:19:43.600He wanted them to get settled in, to say their prayers, to connect with God.
00:19:51.240And look, I go to church every Sunday.
00:19:55.460Think about your experience in that pew.
00:19:58.740You know, I will share something with you.
00:20:03.160When I go, and probably just like a lot of you, when I go, the first thing I do when I get there is I say my prayers for my family and for people I miss.
00:20:12.020I think about my sister all the time who died a couple of years ago at age 58.
00:20:21.440And this journalist wanted to make sure people like me were doing that so he could burst in and surprise them.
00:20:32.300And his giggling asshole producer is under arrest too, so he can fuck right off with Don Lemon.
00:20:39.120They didn't have a care for interrupting that holy moment that the individuals inside that church were probably having with God, with Jesus, with loved ones, praying for the people who are suffering, praying for the people who are hurt, praying for the people they've lost, praying for their kids.
00:20:59.540And in walks Don Lemon with his microphone, shoving it in your pastor's face as that pastor says, get out, get out.
00:21:17.640And his response is, trauma's part of the process.
00:21:33.740That's where you're really wrong, Don.
00:21:36.920About 30 seconds after the protest begins in the middle of the service, he details, of course, as we know now, knowing the protesters were there, about this pastor, not the one who was actually delivering the service, but a different one, apparently being a member of ICE.
00:35:56.400They had to arrest him to not only punish him, but to deter others who think it is acceptable to storm a place of worship during the service.
00:36:07.180Just imagine if this were a mosque or a black church or a Jewish synagogue.
00:36:26.240But in the meantime, Pam Bondi is going to put him in prison.
00:36:29.060Here's that soundbite of him on the podcast the Monday after he did this, which is 24 hours later.
00:36:35.880I think that there is obviously there's racism.
00:36:39.080And the whole point of it is that they're detaining people on the streets because of accents and the color of their skin.
00:36:44.660And they're also targeting people of color and black people as well as brown people.
00:36:50.180So there is a certain degree of racism there.
00:36:52.520And there's a certain degree of entitlement.
00:36:53.840I think people who are, you know, in religious groups like that, it's not the type of Christianity that I practice, but I think that they're entitled.
00:37:01.180And that entitlement comes from a supremacy, a white supremacy.
00:37:05.540And they think that this country was built for them, that it is a Christian country, when actually we left England because we wanted religious freedom.
00:37:11.880It's religious freedom, but only if you're a Christian and only if you're a white male, pretty much.
00:48:47.700The government has had the opportunity, eight days, to accumulate a tremendous amount of more information.
00:48:54.840Interviewing people that were there, interviewing people that were there, getting their hands on communications with grand jury subpoenas.
00:49:02.000We don't know yet, but they probably even went and tried to get and maybe did get a search warrant, which you would need to, like, go through open emails.
00:49:11.560So we're eight days down the road from the information that those judges were presented.
00:49:17.140And what those judges concluded eight days ago is irrelevant to what has happened.
00:49:25.080And I have it on good information that the supporting affidavit here, the supporting evidence here, is very powerful and that they have definitely shorn up their case.
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00:51:05.520Joining us now for more reaction on the arrest of Don Lemon and others, Michael Knowles, host of the Michael Knowles Show on The Daily Wire.
00:51:14.560Michael Knowles, your thoughts on Don Lemon being taken away in handcuffs.
00:51:20.200When I got the news, I was sitting down for my show this morning, I pulled a Mayflower cigar out of my cigar box, I lit it up, I'm a simple man.
00:51:29.000The feds arrest Don Lemon, I light a cigar.
00:51:32.340This is, without any qualification, a wonderful thing to happen.
00:51:38.200It is good for society, it is good for law and order, it's even good for Don Lemon, because the guy is clearly very messed up.
00:51:45.940Now look, all the public stories about Murph's bar in Sag Harbor, the guy's got a lot of problems, okay?
00:51:51.540And this is good, he needs to be rehabilitated, he's got a lot of issues, he needs to be corrected.
00:51:56.540But it's really important, because the biggest impediment, I think, to our having a good, orderly society in recent years has been the establishment media.
00:52:08.180They're the ones who lie, they're the ones who push their radical policies, they're the ones who protect the horrible politicians.
00:52:13.080And they've gotten away with it, and what this arrest signifies is that you can't just go about and commit crimes, and then claim journalism as a defense.
00:52:25.500You know, the idea that Don Lemon could, by all evidence, conspire with this mob, he said, I know a little secret, I know what we're about to do.
00:52:33.080Go in there, violate federal law, the FACE Act notably, deprive people of their rights, and then say, no, no, I have a camera.
00:52:38.680Well, I did it. It would be like saying, you go over, you murder your enemy, you shoot him five times in the head, and you say, no, no, no, you can't arrest me, I was going to write an article about it later.
00:52:47.920That's not a defense. And so, I'm pleased by the arrest.
00:52:52.580Now, what's very important is, we need serious charges, and we need him to be found guilty.
00:52:59.360He needs to actually serve time for this.
00:53:01.360Pro-life grannies served years in the clink for praying at abortion clinics because of FACE Act violations.
00:53:08.820Don Lemon needs to serve double that. What he did is much, much worse than what the pro-life grannies did.
00:53:13.280So, the fear here is, if he gets off the hook, it'll be good for him, it'll put us in a worse position than we were in the beginning.
00:53:20.820But that's not an excuse to do nothing. You just have to push ahead. This guy needs to face consequences.
00:53:25.880I totally agree with that. I agree with every word. I know some people are worried about making him a martyr.
00:53:32.120That's not the point. He violated the law. It's all there. It's right on camera.
00:53:37.740It's really not even ambiguous, and people claiming that it is are activists or political hacks.
00:53:43.640And the point is, is justice going to apply to both sides or isn't it?
00:53:49.060If the grannies have to go to jail for the abortion clinics, Don Lemon has to go to jail for the church.
00:53:56.420I guess the question you would have to ask the people who are defending Don Lemon or saying that he's a martyr or something like that is, okay, did he violate the law?
00:54:05.060Did it? And just try to figure out, I guess, if they actually defend the FACE Act.
00:54:10.100By the way, I think the FACE Act is horrible. It obviously only exists to protect abortionists.
00:54:16.080Right. It's always been used on the abortion clinics.
00:54:18.580That's all it's for. But to get it passed, they had to also carve out protections for churches.
00:54:23.800Now, I think churches could be protected in plenty of other ways that don't involve the FACE Act.
00:54:28.320But just get the people who are defending him to ask, okay, did he violate the FACE Act?
00:54:32.200I think anybody who's being even slightly honest here has to admit, yes, he did that.
00:54:37.240And so then get them to admit the next principle, which is, okay, well, why should he get off the hook?
00:54:41.980And they'll say, well, because he's a journalist.
00:54:43.780So journalists have immunity to commit any crime that they want?
00:54:47.040I don't think that's a principle of American law.
00:54:49.060I don't know, Megan, I didn't go to law school, but I don't think that's a part of our law or our jurisprudence.
00:54:53.880So then on what grounds is he to be defended?
00:54:56.980And the only grounds is, well, those dirty Christians had it coming.
00:55:00.900Those white people in Minnesota who that ICE agent that they said was being harbored in the church,
01:04:40.080I think a lot of our present political ills are because people sincerely have no idea what is actually meant by our free speech tradition,
01:04:46.600and then they go out and commit a bunch of crimes, whether it means they're going to riot in the streets of Minneapolis in 2020 and 2025 and 26,
01:04:52.740or whether it means that you're going to invade a church and call it journalism.
01:05:37.920All the footage makes the criminals look awful, totally exonerates the cops.
01:05:41.460I think if we get down to the heart of the matter here, the truth of our law, the truth of what these journalists are really doing,
01:05:46.800it's going to be a massive win from the right and not a moment too soon.
01:05:49.660The Harmeet Dillon was on the program last week saying it's not as though just because you're a journalist you get an invisibility cloak while you're going in to help commit the crimes.
01:06:01.440You know, like you don't have some special immunity that the other people don't have while you're in the middle of committing a crime.
01:06:09.220We were watching a crime on that Don Lemon videotape.
01:06:11.660By the way, the stuff that we saw on video only really tells half the story.
01:06:18.120Some of the reports that we now have coming out of the courts because of the other prosecutions in this case show that when this mob went in there,
01:06:24.160they didn't just start chanting randomly in the air.
01:06:26.100They blocked off the Sunday school where the kids were from their parents so the parents couldn't even get to the kids.
01:06:32.880In one case, you had one of these lunatic activists screaming in the face of crying kids saying your parents are Nazis and your parents are going to go to hell.
01:06:42.620You know, actually tormenting these kinds of children, creating a very dangerous situation.
01:06:48.000So I want all the facts to come to light here and I want all the facts of Don Lemon's involvement to come to light.
01:06:52.900He already teased it himself on camera.
01:07:29.060The FACE Act says, again, you cannot by force, threat of force or by physical obstruction, which has been interpreted to mean blocking entrances, blocking exits, even blocking pathways, even getting in the way of somebody who's in an abortion clinic or here, a church.
01:07:47.720You cannot, by doing any of that, interfere with any person attempting to exercise their religious freedom.
01:08:00.080Don Lemon may not have been personally blocking an exit or an entrance, but he absolutely was obstructing the aisles and the areas of that church, including right up at the altar with that pastor.
01:08:13.820And honestly, like this is actually something where I think one of my listeners or viewers wrote in and said, this could be a situation where it's not we're like they not only did they prevent them from leaving, but they prevented them from attending.
01:08:29.520You know, like that's the whole point is that the mass blew up.
01:08:34.980Nobody got nobody fulfilled their Sunday obligation that day.
01:08:37.940You know, they were not able to complete the act that they were there for.
01:08:42.400So this is this is the equivalent of like you're at an abortion clinic and you didn't actually stop the woman from going into the surgery room, but you did something so disruptive that everyone had to evacuate the clinic.
01:08:55.920You would not get out of a face act violation for that.
01:09:00.100That's still an obstruction of what the person was there to do.
01:09:03.600Of course. And in in the case of the abortion clinic application, the left would be up in arms.
01:09:10.040It would be an international outcry if someone heaven forfend prevented a woman from murdering her own child here.
01:09:16.360Of course, it's actually ironic that the face act protects these two diametrically opposed things.
01:09:21.800One, you know, infanticide and one worshiping God in a church.
01:09:25.760But but here, of course, they're going to see no problem with it.
01:09:29.180They'll see it as some First Amendment right.
01:09:42.060If Don Lemon, if this case gets thrown out, you know, by a judge when when we get into motion practice, you and I should go together to an abortion clinic.
01:10:11.980You're going to get right up and get up to in the faces of the of the clinic providers, scare the women who are there to the point where they're crying.
01:10:17.960And I'm going to be on camera saying this is what it's all about to disrupt.
01:10:24.540And then we will see what the next Democrat administration does and whether they all rush to defend you and me, Julie Kay Brown and Jim Acosta and Jon Favreau of the Ponce.
01:10:36.080And Don Lemon. I'm sure Don Lemon will have us on whatever show he has now to defend us, to defend our First Amendment rights, of course.
01:11:28.680There's Jamal Lydell Lundy, who is an aide to the Soros based prosecutor out there in Minneapolis, Mary Moriarty.
01:11:37.620And he works in local government there.
01:11:40.720And then I was told that Don Lemon's producer was also indicted.
01:11:48.040But the press release or the post on X from Pam Bondi says at my direction early this morning, federal agents arrested Lemon, Traherne, Georgia and Jamal.
01:12:01.080So I think I'm guessing then that Lemon's producer is yet to come.
01:12:05.520I think I have been reliably told that he was indicted.
01:14:32.380And I'm not even going to talk about what they tried to feed us that look like mystery meat that makes me sad for the people who are currently incarcerated and not even being fed decently for their survival.
01:14:45.240I didn't want to use the restroom in my cell.
01:14:49.780Because there's a camera watching your every move.
01:14:52.920This is in spite of going through x-ray machines and being strip searched where they know you have no contraband.
01:14:59.060And yet still there's a camera in your room watching you with nothing else in there but a bed on cement and a metal toilet that doubles as a water fountain.
01:15:09.900Note to Nakima, we're not really arresting the best people, so generally we like to keep an eye on them.
01:17:40.200And, media, you have a responsibility, as I said before, because you all participate in spinning headlines and turning us into criminals.
01:17:49.500Even though we are standing up for the poor, we're standing up for the vulnerable, we are standing up for the truth.
01:17:56.180I don't think Hannibal Lecter was, even in the fictional version of, you know, the movie, was allowed out on bail in, like, a nice suit to talk to the media without his weird face mask on, Michael.
01:18:24.480The point that she's making about the protests, or that Jamil Hill's making about the protests, we have to correct the language here.
01:18:31.300What occurred in that church is not a protest.
01:18:33.880Even before you had reminded me that Don Lemon's being charged under the Ku Klux Klan Act, the comparison with the Klan is apt.
01:18:41.740Because, you should ask these people, would you consider a lynching, or even just a milder cross-burning, to be a protest?
01:18:50.180You know, in a way, it's a kind of a protest.
01:18:52.120It's a gathering of people who are angry about something, who want some of their grievances redressed.
01:18:56.700That's true, and so in that way, it's similar to the mob that showed up to the church.
01:19:01.180But it's obviously not a protest, because protests are constitutionally protected acts, and what those people are doing is a criminal act.
01:19:09.260And so, just as you don't get to host the lynching or the cross-burning, and claim it as a constitutionally protected protest, or an act of journalism if someone's filming it or something, the same holds true of the church.
01:19:22.040What happened in that church was many things, and it violated multiple laws.
01:19:26.340What it emphatically was not is a protest.
01:19:28.920Well, you've got now these BLMers, because it's no accident that the George Floyd crew from Minneapolis is jumping in on this, that they were the ones who did the church so-called protest.
01:22:15.960Yes, for the listeners who are not familiar, David Webb, very much a black man, but this was radio, and so the caller didn't know that.
01:22:24.440And it was just this gut, you know, knee-jerk reaction, this lazy kind of attack to say, well, you know, you're only attacking me because I'm black, or a woman, or this or that.
01:22:35.920And I think, actually, the desperation of his excuses, which in some ways are inconsistent, contradictory, the Nicki Minaj line, I think it shows you he realizes he doesn't have a real leg to stand on for what he did.
01:22:49.600And so he has to try to just throw spaghetti at the wall to mix all of my metaphors and try to puff himself up.
01:23:53.680OK, but we questioned on this program yesterday, how exactly is Keith Ellison going to do this?
01:24:00.080Because this is really more of a county by county issue.
01:24:04.280And he, as the attorney general, had just issued an opinion not long ago saying it would be a Fourth Amendment violation to hold people even like one day longer.
01:24:13.000So, like, if ICE came on March 15th, they couldn't hold him.
01:24:16.440So it was just, you know, my basic question was, has the Minneapolis mayor weighed in on this?
01:24:23.660Did we hear directly from Keith Ellison on this?
01:24:26.600And yesterday before our show, we actually called the sheriff for Hennepin County, which is where Minneapolis was, is to say, did you agree to that?
01:24:36.860And here's the long and the short of it.
01:24:39.540We got a long gobbledygook answer from the sheriff, which amounts to no, I did not agree to that.
01:24:46.760We now hear reporting from Fox News correspondent Matt Finn, who says that Ellison has given Fox a statement saying he made no deal with Tom Homan and also wrote that he cannot tell jails to cooperate with ICE, but that jails historically can do their own thing.
01:25:03.960Then he writes, the sheriff, the sheriff office in Hennepin County tells us at Fox, it is not in the process of making any changes, which dovetails with what he told us, which is gobbledygook, gobbledygook.
01:25:17.200So as far as I can tell, we don't have an explicit agreement from anybody to actually change things at the county jail.
01:25:26.340Now, this sheriff does say this would have to come from the state, but again, Ellison is saying he did not cut a deal, so it's not coming from the state attorney general.
01:25:39.620Because Governor Walz today is issuing proclamations, say, buy local because ICE is hurting our economy, and definitely not saying make the local and county jails cooperate with ICE.
01:25:50.840Long way of saying, Michael Knowles, I have no idea what if any deal has been struck between our federal government and the local governments in Minneapolis, and I have zero reason to believe they're going to change.
01:26:03.360But it does seem we're changing in not going after anybody other than illegals who have also done something extra criminal.
01:26:12.420Well, it's difficult even to interpret what that means from our side or from the federal government side or the side of the law because, you know, Tim Walz claims a scalp because Greg Bovino was reassigned.
01:26:24.740Okay, well, it's one thing to move the commander at large of Border Patrol, but then if you're just going to sub in the guy who is even more the face of the mass deportations, Tom Homan, that doesn't seem like a huge win necessarily for the left.
01:26:37.560On top of that, there was this strange sequence of events. On Sunday, Tim Walz goes out. He compares the face-tattooed Venezuelan rapists to Anne Frank and compares ICE to the Nazis, and he says someday they're going to write a book about what happened here.
01:26:53.780And he said, you know, this is awful. He gets a call from Trump on Monday. By Tuesday, he says, we are going to cooperate with the Nazis.
01:27:01.640He says, Tim Walz basically comes out. He says, I'm a Nazi collaborator now, and we're going to work together, and it's going to be great.
01:27:19.980Fraud. Obviously, Tim Walz seems to be neck deep in fraud, allegedly, reportedly, allegedly, but there's a lot of evidence for that.
01:27:25.820So, you know, clearly, it was enough to scare Tim Walz straight. Whether that made it down to Ellison or the county sheriffs remains to be seen.
01:27:33.020So the question then becomes, what has changed? And I suspect right now, what I want is for these jails to hand over the illegals and make this a little bit easier.
01:27:42.240And it could kind of be a win-win. But if that is not the case-
01:27:46.540But that's totally contrary to what a sanctuary city does.
01:27:50.340Like, that's really at the heart of what they will not do.
01:27:54.540So that's why it jumped out at me when Homan said that they had agreed yesterday.
01:27:56.920Because if they actually did agree to do that, then they're agreeing not to be a sanctuary city anymore.
01:28:01.500That is very big news, which is why my first reaction was, what is Jacob Fry saying?
01:32:11.980And on that front, I want to tell the audience that we've been working on this for a while now, and we've put together a very powerful, it's like a five-minute montage of victims of these illegals, you know, from Lakin Riley to Kate Steinle to Jocelyn Nangare and names that you haven't heard.
01:32:30.960So many, by the way, have been killed in DWIs.
01:32:33.700Like these illegals, they're not all murderers, but a lot are serious boozebags who get behind the wheel of cars and have absolutely no compunction about driving the wrong way on a one-way street or down a major highway, killing our most promising young people.
01:33:03.700Okay, we're going to bring on Howard Bloom in a minute because we've got new details in the Brian Kohlberger case.
01:33:10.200He's trying to get transferred out of his prison, but more importantly, Howard Bloom now thinks Brian Kohlberger may have had an accomplice.
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01:34:22.860New unsealed court filings reveal more horrifying details about the final moments of the four University of Idaho students murdered by Brian Kohlberger.
01:34:36.380The autopsy findings show the victims were stabbed at least 150 times collectively.
01:34:42.580Three attacked as they slept, one fighting desperately for her life in her final moments.
01:34:55.720It was a bestseller called When the Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders, and has covered this case so well for so long.
01:35:03.320And now he's raising an unsettling theory, having seen all the latest evidence that Brian Kohlberger may not have acted alone.
01:35:48.420And when the case ended, I thought, well, they've got the right man.
01:35:51.700And I still believe Kohlberger is guilty.
01:35:54.160But I think there's a larger story to tell when you look at the evidence that's suddenly being released.
01:36:00.100We're getting troves and troves of new evidence.
01:36:02.520And as you pointed out, just let's start with the crime scene photographs.
01:36:06.900The scenario for the murders, according to the police, is that the murders occurred between 4.07 a.m. and 4.20, 13 minutes.
01:36:17.020I think that scenario is a little overly generous.
01:36:20.260I would suggest that the murders occurred in just nine minutes because Kohlberger had to then leave the house, go up the hill, take off his bloody suit.
01:36:30.340So between 9 and 13 minutes, the murders occurred.
01:36:36.260This was a very brutal, vicious attack.
01:36:40.180Could one man have gone through two floors of the house and with just nine minutes or 13 minutes, even, as the police say, committed all these murders?
01:36:49.560And then the prosecutor has come out and said that perhaps there was another weapon involved.
01:36:55.960He says, I cannot rule out, and this is a direct quote from him, that another weapon was involved.
01:37:01.840And he also talks about one of the victims being gagged.
01:37:07.060I don't think one person could do this.
01:37:09.120So that's where I started looking into it.
01:37:12.300Just for the listening audience, we were showing on the board while Howard was speaking there pictures that the Daily Mail downloaded for the very brief time that they were posted online by law enforcement handling this case in Idaho.
01:37:24.280The Daily Mail, to its credit, chose not to publish the most gruesome ones, but they published one showing blood all over the murder scenes.
01:37:32.340And you can see the bloody walls and the bloody beds and the bloody floors and shoes and so on.
01:37:36.760And it is horrifying because you know exactly what happened there.
01:37:40.580And it is evidence of the massive, massive carnage and the struggle that ensued in these rooms, which is part of Howard's theory that how in nine minutes did one man produce all this?
01:38:46.280Now, everything we've known about Kohlberger that we've been following for over these two and a half, three years is that nothing was done randomly.
01:40:05.960Howard's going to finish his theory on this, which is provocative and interesting.
01:40:09.680And we'll get to the prison transfer as well.
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01:42:27.500We are back now with journalist Howard Bloom talking about Brian Kohlberger and why Howard believes now, having seen the crime scene photos and done some other investigation, that Brian Kohlberger may have had an accomplice.
01:42:44.240And more than that, that Brian Kohlberger may have been the accomplice to someone else.
01:42:52.940Now, Howard, one of the most interesting things that you raise in your piece, positing this possibility, is you reckon back to, hearken back to, the moment Kohlberger was taken into custody.
01:43:07.880And one of the few public statements that he made on the record about this case, and the very first question he asked the investigators when he was arrested.
01:43:18.660Yes. On the night of Kohlberger's arrest in his parents' house in Pennsylvania, he's put up in zip ties.
01:43:26.860His parents and one of his sisters are put in zip ties by the police.
01:43:30.480He's taken out to a state trooper's car.
01:43:35.600And the first thing he says to the state trooper is, was anyone else arrested?
01:43:41.020And at the time, no one really paid too much attention to this.
01:43:45.120We thought he was being the dutiful son, concerned about his parents or his sister.
01:43:50.000But now, in retrospect, when you look at all the other aspects of the case, when you look at what occurred that night, whether one man could have done it, this question has a more ominous echo.
01:44:04.200It raises the possibility that someone else is out there right now.
01:44:08.180It really is an odd question when you think about it.
01:44:11.960You know, if Kohlberger, we know he committed the crime, but let's assume if he had done it totally by himself with no accomplice, why would that be the first question you asked investigators?
01:44:27.260And there's more evidence that makes this question even eerier.
01:44:31.140On the knife sheath, which we know has Kohlberger's DNA on it, a little bit of touch DNA on the button snap, that was a cornerstone of the state's case against him.
01:44:43.660But there now is, according to the documents that have been released, there is unknown Y-DNA on it, a speck of that.
01:45:14.980But they didn't compare it to the blood samples they had found previously, which they never investigated, on the handrail and on a glove outside.
01:45:23.940Sometimes you don't ask questions because you don't want to know the answers.
01:45:27.520When I was, you know, talking to people in law enforcement about this theory, many people didn't want to talk.
01:45:35.400But one person who's very knowledgeable about the case wound up telling me, said, look, this case is all wrapped up.
01:46:08.000So we have now come to understand, per People magazine, that the defense had hired a forensic criminologist named Dr. Brent Tarvey, who was going to testify for the defense if this case had gone to trial.
01:46:24.080And this guy, now, obviously, he's hired by the defense to try to get Brian Kohlberger off the hook.
01:46:28.500So we take it with a serious grain of salt.
01:46:31.020But he is raising, in this draft testimony that people got its hands on, some similar questions.
01:46:37.240And here are a few of them, as outlined by the magazine.
01:46:41.580They say that he argued that one killer could not have contained, for example, both Ethan Chapin and his girlfriend, Zanna Cronodal, or rendered the two different types of lethal force used on Kaylee Gonsalves.
01:46:54.900Because we know the killer killed Kaylee and Madison first, we believe, on the third floor.
01:47:00.640And Kaylee had a broken nose and many injuries about the face, which we were told were defensive wounds, as she definitely tried to fight him.
01:47:09.380And it was Kaylee's injuries that led the authorities at the presser after the plea to say, we believed he used a weapon other than a knife.
01:47:38.340I mean, these are questions that are raised and that they didn't follow up on.
01:47:42.360And I find that, you know, from the moment they tore down the murder house, they wanted this case just to disappear.
01:47:50.000So many people involved in the case have just wanted to move on.
01:47:53.500The original police chief couldn't wait to quit his job and move on.
01:47:56.840The original judge couldn't wait to retire.
01:48:00.380They tear down, again, the murder house, as I said.
01:48:04.400And then they're able, just over a course of a weekend, a single weekend, after three years nearly of legal wrangling, to just settle things without demanding an allocution, without trying to say we want the answers.
01:48:17.260They say, well, Kohlberger would never tell us the truth.
01:48:21.020Well, either he will tell you where the murder weapon is, or he won't.
01:48:24.320It's pretty cut and dry to ask that question and get a clear answer.
01:48:29.120He'll be able to tell you how he knew the young women involved, or he didn't.
01:48:35.940Why they did this, I don't understand.
01:48:38.440They had cards to play, and they refused to play them.
01:48:41.920I want to go back to this guy, Dr. Brent Tarvey, because he's raising other good questions along the lines of yours.
01:48:47.260I mentioned, so we're looking at the injuries on Kaylee, who we now know because they've released the number of stab wounds each victim received.
01:49:09.920And he was asking questions about how could Ethan have been killed with Zanna?
01:49:16.760Like, he said, it is not reasonable to think that Ethan would have remained in his bed after waking up or being awake while Zanna was being attacked in front of him.
01:49:25.260This evidence and context begin to suggest the existence of a second attacker.
01:49:29.940Ethan and Zanna appear to have been attacked at the same time.
01:49:32.420So it's inconsistent with the state's theory that these crimes were committed solely by one individual.
01:49:37.400But, Howard, isn't it possible that Brian Kohlberger could have attacked Ethan first, killed him, and then killed Zanna?
01:49:47.840Because you would think he would take out the man before, you know, going after the woman.
01:49:53.260Well, it's possible, but the way it's been reconstructed now and the way I understand the events is that Zanna was literally going up the stairs because she heard the commotion in the third floor bedroom.
01:50:07.360And then she was going down and Kohlberger chased her and then immobilized her.
01:50:14.260Then he dealt with Ethan and then she was killed.
01:50:17.060That's the way it's been explained to me.
01:50:19.800But also, you know, Ethan is six foot four.