The Megyn Kelly Show - Don Lemon ARRESTED Under Klan and FACE Acts, with Michael Knowles, Mike Davis, Bill Shipley, and Howard Blum ｜ Ep. 1242

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00:00:44.880 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:46.840 Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:56.580 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:58.400 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:59.640 We woke up this Friday morning to some breaking news.

00:01:03.260 Don Lemon, the former CNN host who now makes a fool of himself on his bizarre YouTube channel,

00:01:08.380 has been arrested by the feds for his role in the now infamous agitator-led ICE protest

00:01:14.160 at City's Church in St. Paul, Minnesota during Sunday service on January 18th.

00:01:19.640 According to reports, he's been charged with two federal crimes, conspiracy against rights,

00:01:25.520 also known as the Ku Klux Klan Act, a felony.

00:01:29.360 That's where you violate somebody else's civil rights like that to attend a worship service.

00:01:35.860 And he's been charged also with violating the FACE Act,

00:01:39.420 which makes it a crime to, quote,

00:01:41.420 by force or threat of force or by physical obstruction,

00:01:46.960 intentionally injure, intimidate or interfere with,

00:01:51.180 or attempt to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person,

00:01:54.520 lawfully exercising or seeking to exercise the First Amendment right of religious freedom

00:01:58.120 at a place of religious worship.

00:01:59.840 Okay, so if he, in short, if he, by physical instruction,

00:02:06.040 obstruction, interfered with someone's ability to go to church, he's in trouble.

00:02:13.580 And that's what they're alleging, that he and others went into that church,

00:02:17.360 they obstructed the aisles, they obstructed the entrances, the exits,

00:02:21.420 the ability of parents to get downstairs to get their children who are in the preschool

00:02:25.060 sort of waiting area where you put your kids to Sunday school while you're at the main church.

00:02:31.420 And that they did it knowing that they'd be interfering in the mass

00:02:35.060 and still doing it anyway.

00:02:36.960 That's what they did.

00:02:37.880 Don Lemon knew what he was walking into.

00:02:39.740 He knew exactly what he was walking into.

00:02:42.320 And he did it anyway.

00:02:43.320 Now he wants to claim that he was a journalist and that that somehow protects him.

00:02:47.360 It doesn't.

00:02:48.440 Okay, so I'm going to take you through right now

00:02:50.540 why we think Don Lemon was not behaving as a journalist that day.

00:02:57.640 But it doesn't, it doesn't matter at all.

00:03:00.680 It 100% as a journalist, this is illegal.

00:03:04.660 As a journalist, this is illegal.

00:03:07.940 We're still waiting to get our hands on the indictment

00:03:10.980 to see exactly what the DOJ is alleging.

00:03:13.520 And I have been told by a reliable source that when we see the supporting affidavit,

00:03:19.260 it will have far more detail than we got from the supporting affidavit

00:03:23.700 for the first three who were charged.

00:03:25.780 So I'm looking forward to seeing that.

00:03:26.980 And don't forget, they brought this before a magistrate judge last week.

00:03:30.780 That magistrate judge approved the charges against the three leaders of the protest,

00:03:34.600 Nekima Levy-Armstrong, Chantel Allen, and William Kelly.

00:03:38.280 He's the most obnoxious of anyone,

00:03:40.340 screaming in the faces of children that their parents are Nazis.

00:03:42.860 But at that time, that magistrate judge, who, don't forget, his wife works for Keith Ellison,

00:03:50.200 the attorney general, leading the charge against ICE in Minneapolis,

00:03:54.960 and his wife, the magistrate judge's wife, continues to like tweets opposing ICE.

00:04:00.340 That magistrate judge at the time declined to approve charges against Lemon.

00:04:04.620 Um, they tried to take that judge's decision up to his district court boss,

00:04:11.660 the chief judge in the district, to try to get him to sign off on them.

00:04:15.320 And while you have all these journalists out there now saying,

00:04:18.520 he said you could not bring these charges.

00:04:21.060 The chief judge said you could not bring charges against Lemon.

00:04:23.680 He said nothing of the kind.

00:04:25.560 He said, what are you coming to me for?

00:04:28.480 If you don't like the magistrate judge's decision,

00:04:31.460 you can either improve your affidavit in support of charges and try again with the magistrate judge,

00:04:37.640 or you do the other thing that federal prosecutors do if they want criminal charges brought,

00:04:43.620 and that is go before a grand jury, which we understand was not in session last week.

00:04:49.620 So they had to wait until this week.

00:04:51.560 And that's exactly what they did yesterday.

00:04:53.540 So you have idiots like Gretchen Carlson out there saying the chief judge, 1.00

00:04:58.920 the district's judge said these charges could not be brought.

00:05:02.140 That's not correct.

00:05:03.640 He specifically said, if you want to try again,

00:05:07.700 improve the affidavit and go back to the magistrate judge,

00:05:10.700 or just go before a grand jury, which is what federal prosecutors do all the time.

00:05:16.520 And they chose B because they understood this magistrate judge was not going to be fair in any event.

00:05:22.740 And guess what?

00:05:24.260 A Minnesota grand jury looked at the DOJ's evidence and said, you got him.

00:05:31.860 There is probable cause that Don Lemon committed multiple crimes.

00:05:36.720 And now he will have his day in court.

00:05:39.420 This morning, James Blair, a deputy White House chief of staff,

00:05:43.520 said that this federal grand jury had in fact done this.

00:05:47.260 And of course, we told you that this was happening on this program yesterday.

00:05:50.680 You should tune in here regularly if you want to know the very latest and the advance notice

00:05:55.840 on the machinations of these legal cases.

00:05:59.660 Anyone who acts surprised is doing just that.

00:06:01.860 They're acting.

00:06:03.020 Every video of the incident looks like a textbook example of face act violations.

00:06:08.400 I mean, it's all there on camera.

00:06:11.240 It's truly out of the stupid criminal files.

00:06:14.000 They videotaped themselves committing the crime.

00:06:17.180 Here's just a flavor of what happened that day.

00:06:20.340 We're going to do it!

00:06:22.840 We're going to do it!

00:06:25.040 We're going to do it!

00:06:27.620 We're going to do it!

00:06:29.560 Don't shoot!

00:06:31.540 Don't shoot!

00:06:33.460 Don't shoot!

00:06:34.720 Where are you?

00:06:36.220 Where are you?

00:06:36.940 Where are you?

00:06:37.720 Where are your people?

00:06:39.560 Why are you not at Whipple every day fighting for the humanity, standing for our people?

00:06:45.480 Where are you?

00:06:46.320 You drink your coffee, you got your jewelry, you have your nice clothes, but what do you

00:06:51.360 do?

00:06:51.640 What do you do to stand for your Somali and Latino community?

00:06:54.880 I'm not going to comment.

00:06:55.760 We have a duty to win!

00:07:00.600 We have a duty to win!

00:07:04.140 We must love and support one another!

00:07:08.980 We have nothing!

00:07:09.900 We have nothing!

00:07:10.620 We have nothing!

00:07:11.340 Okay, they stormed a church and took over the church in the middle of the mass.

00:07:19.340 By all accounts, those demonstrators absolutely terrorized the congregation.

00:07:25.040 For the viewing audience, look how scared this child is.

00:07:27.660 No child.

00:07:28.880 No child.

00:07:30.440 Never mind in a house of God should have to feel this way at the hands of protesters.

00:07:35.120 He's being comforted, held by his parent.

00:07:38.360 I think the other parent there has her hand on his back.

00:07:41.380 And you can see he's visibly upset.

00:07:43.880 And we know he was because the affidavit in support of the arrest warrant for the other

00:07:49.220 three who were already taken into custody says specifically that, quote, they were terrorized.

00:07:57.220 Our children were weeping.

00:07:58.720 College students and young women were sobbing.

00:08:00.780 It was impactful and it will take time for us to work through.

00:08:04.740 One victim broke her arm as she ran out of the church that day as these lunatics were

00:08:10.600 shouting about shooting and getting your hands up.

00:08:14.660 All right.

00:08:15.360 One thought it was a shooting.

00:08:17.680 Many others say they were not able to leave.

00:08:20.840 And the one woman fell and injured was injured on her way out, breaking her arm.

00:08:25.960 So what about Don Lemon?

00:08:27.820 Now he says, I was just a journalist.

00:08:29.420 And this is all over X right now.

00:08:31.340 When this broke this morning, I mean, it's been a sea of misinformation on X.

00:08:36.860 As everybody says, he said he's a he's a journalist and all these journalism outlets.

00:08:41.400 Oh, he's a journalist.

00:08:42.340 What are you doing?

00:08:43.140 We stand for free press.

00:08:45.020 These are liars.

00:08:46.500 These are agenda driven spin masters because actual journalists know full well you're not

00:08:54.780 allowed to do this.

00:08:56.100 If I could tell you the number of times that I've been out covering news with my cameras

00:09:01.920 and something happened where my cameras and I wanted my producer and my photog and I wanted

00:09:07.100 to go onto private property to get the best shot, but couldn't because we did not have permission.

00:09:14.680 We'd be here all day.

00:09:15.980 I mean, I'm thinking back to the very first big, big story I covered for Fox News, which was the Duke La Crosse fake rape case.

00:09:23.100 We were all over Durham.

00:09:25.220 We we found the accuser.

00:09:28.100 No one else had found her.

00:09:29.780 She was not being named by the press.

00:09:31.720 We found her name.

00:09:32.720 We found where she lived.

00:09:33.980 Nobody knew it was in this very sketchy neighborhood.

00:09:36.220 We were told by the cops not to go there, but we did anyway.

00:09:39.900 In other words, they were worried for our safety.

00:09:42.000 But we went into the neighborhood anyway and we found her house.

00:09:45.960 She was in it.

00:09:47.400 We knew she was in there.

00:09:49.380 Do you think I would have loved to go in there with my photog and get a picture of her on camera? 0.78

00:09:55.960 You bet I would have.

00:09:57.640 Why didn't I?

00:09:59.140 Because it's not legal.

00:10:01.740 That's private property.

00:10:03.520 And what I put it to you in terms of a person's home, it's very easy to understand.

00:10:09.380 Right.

00:10:09.580 Of course you can't do that.

00:10:11.200 If you were in the middle of a news story, could CBS News come through your front door and photograph you?

00:10:16.960 Could the New York Times?

00:10:18.300 Of course not.

00:10:19.640 Why?

00:10:19.920 Because that's your private property and they don't have permission.

00:10:23.940 So that's just one reason you can't do it.

00:10:25.960 It would be trespass.

00:10:27.520 It would be a criminal act of trespass.

00:10:29.980 And every news organization, every single one out there right now that's saying this is an outrage, he did nothing wrong, absolutely knows this, but they are ignoring it.

00:10:38.200 But Don Lemonade is in so much more trouble than that because he did not just trespass into somebody's private property, which a church is, absolutely is.

00:10:48.320 He did not have an invitation to be there and he trespassed.

00:10:51.060 He made the colossal blunder of doing it into a house of worship in the middle of a religious service.

00:10:59.700 That was a colossal blunder because now you're talking about rock solid rights that the churchgoers have under the Constitution and under federal statutes not to be bothered while they're worshiping.

00:11:14.780 And Don Lemonade is either too stupid or too rude to know that, okay?

00:11:22.040 He either was too dumb to check with his very famous, very well-paid lawyer, Abby Lowell, before he did this colossally stupid thing, or he did know and he flouted the law intentionally.

00:11:31.900 Either way, he's in a shit ton of trouble because you do have a constitutional right to worship in peace and you have a statutory right to do it under the FACE Act and the Klan Act, for that matter, all right? 0.79

00:11:46.080 So he messed with the wrong group of people.

00:11:49.760 I would have been in trouble had I gone into Crystal Mangum's house under the trespass laws. 0.89

00:11:55.040 And he not only violated the trespass laws, he stepped in a whole host of other shit because it was a religious house in the middle of a service. 0.83

00:12:04.440 That's the difference here.

00:12:06.660 It doesn't matter whether he participated as a protester, which there is a very strong case he did, or if he did it as a journalist.

00:12:14.000 It doesn't matter.

00:12:15.320 I could not go into an abortion clinic as Megan Kelly journalist with a bunch of pro-lifers who were impeding women's access to the clinic. 0.99

00:12:25.740 Even, they wouldn't have to be putting chains on the door into the surgery room if they were standing between an abortion seeker and the surgical facility, or never mind the abortion facility at large. 0.66

00:12:39.140 They'd be committing a crime.

00:12:41.260 And if I were in there too, I would be also committing a crime.

00:12:47.000 You don't get a pass just by saying, well, I'm just here to put it on my YouTube channel.

00:12:52.100 That's not how it works.

00:12:53.440 Or even CBS Evening News, or 60 Minutes, or ABC Nightly News.

00:12:57.240 Sorry, every real journalist knows that does not give you a free-for-all pass to do whatever the fuck you want.

00:13:04.020 If only, I mean, if only, we'd have amazing gets all the time.

00:13:09.700 We would be participating in all sorts of crimes so we could bring them live to you in the midst of them.

00:13:16.440 I mean, it'd be amazing.

00:13:17.840 But we don't, and we can't, because we understand we, too, are subjected to the same laws and constitutional prohibitions as citizens.

00:13:27.540 All right?

00:13:28.120 So I'm sorry, but this is all just a head fake.

00:13:30.840 Like, this, he's a journalist, he's a journalist, he's a journalist, I'm sorry, but he stepped right smack dab in the middle of mud that no journalist is allowed to step in.

00:13:38.920 But putting that to the side for now, okay, we're going to debate it with an excellent, the best legal panel in a minute.

00:13:44.300 But putting that to the side, the guy was an active participant, and he knew full well.

00:13:52.080 He didn't just, like, say, oh, I guess, you know, I've been given a tip to show up to some unknown location.

00:13:58.080 He knew all about what the organizers were planning to do inside this church.

00:14:02.860 He willfully entered the church knowing full well that the disruption was planned.

00:14:09.900 The first example is Lemon at the meeting site with the protesters, where he's kissing the organizer.

00:14:15.880 They clearly know each other.

00:14:16.960 They've been in cahoots.

00:14:18.280 And you will hear him allude to knowing the details.

00:14:21.460 He talks about how it's key that some of the agitators are what he calls MAGA-coded.

00:14:26.640 Watch.

00:14:26.940 They're getting the operation together.

00:14:29.840 Again, this is an operation that is a secret that they invited folks out.

00:14:35.940 I can't tell you what is going to happen, but you're going to watch it live unfold here on the Don Lemon Show.

00:14:41.880 There are this, for this reason, looks, for this reason, it may look like MAGA-coded.

00:14:52.620 But there's a reason they have so many white people here. 0.97

00:14:55.780 I'm just going to be honest.

00:14:56.600 It's because of the operation that they're doing today.

00:14:59.620 It's important to have allies, as they said, white allies here.

00:15:02.860 So that is what I could say.

00:15:07.780 I turned our camera off of them because they're giving some critical information here.

00:15:11.100 How are you?

00:15:11.860 Good.

00:15:12.240 Good to see you.

00:15:12.860 We're on.

00:15:13.380 We're not saying what it is, what's going on, but thank you.

00:15:17.060 Tell us why you're doing this.

00:15:18.880 This is Nakeema, Levy Armstrong.

00:15:20.960 This is Operation Pull-Up, more of a clandestine operation.

00:15:24.300 Okay, so we're going to go to the operation again.

00:15:26.520 We're not going to give any of the information away.

00:15:30.440 As Nakeema said, this is a clandestine operation, and then we can tell you what's going to happen

00:15:38.120 afterward.

00:15:40.060 Now, let me say for the record, if Don Lemon had stopped there and not gone in that church,

00:15:43.680 he would have been fine.

00:15:44.960 He would have been fine.

00:15:47.360 It's fine.

00:15:48.560 It's fine for someone to tell you that they're going to do something illegal and you, as the

00:15:51.940 reporter, go there to film it from a place you're allowed to be and you don't take part in it.

00:15:56.980 We do that all the time.

00:15:58.420 But he didn't.

00:15:59.440 That wasn't good enough for Don because, you see, he needed YouTube subscribers.

00:16:05.580 Do we have that clip, Deb, where he's begging them, don't forget to subscribe, subscribe.

00:16:10.800 Don't forget to follow, subscribe.

00:16:12.940 That's why he did it.

00:16:15.780 It wasn't enough for Don to document from the place he was allowed to be what they were doing

00:16:21.540 inside.

00:16:22.140 And, hey, it would have been great tape watching the people run out, the woman with the broken

00:16:25.980 arm, the crying children.

00:16:27.160 I think Don really would have enjoyed that.

00:16:28.560 But it wasn't good enough for him.

00:16:30.340 He wanted to go in the church.

00:16:32.900 He reminded people throughout his disruption, subscribe.

00:16:39.140 Watch.

00:16:39.560 Look, we actually cut the clip the other day.

00:16:41.240 We never got to play it.

00:16:41.860 But here it is.

00:16:42.320 So if you're in the chat, if you're with us, support us, support us, support us, like and

00:16:49.000 subscribe, become a member, support independent journalism, because we are, we do it without

00:16:55.240 fear or favor.

00:16:55.940 I'm not afraid to do this.

00:16:56.880 Like I told you, it was going to be raw, unscripted.

00:17:00.560 We got stuck in the snow trying to get here, had to produce it in real time, go here.

00:17:05.280 As soon as we walked in, almost perfect timing, the protesters stood up.

00:17:09.280 Appreciate all of you, all of the new members.

00:17:11.600 Make sure you're subscribed if you're watching us.

00:17:14.100 Make sure if you go to the YouTube channel, you can hit subscribe.

00:17:16.300 Just go to donlemon.com, donlemon.com.

00:17:23.120 At the top of the page, there are links on all four of the categories that we are nominated

00:17:29.380 for for the NAACP Image Award.

00:17:31.920 Click on those categories and vote for you can only vote for one person.

00:17:35.880 Vote for me.

00:17:38.940 So he decided that he wanted to interfere with people's right to worship because it could

00:17:45.140 really get him some good clicks.

00:17:47.520 Like there would be a personal benefit to Don Lemon, right?

00:17:50.920 Some people went in there intentionally interfering because they wanted to intimidate ICE and ICE

00:17:57.180 supporters.

00:17:57.920 Some people went in there because they wanted to interfere because they thought they'd get

00:18:02.600 clicks and subscriptions.

00:18:04.980 They're both illegal.

00:18:06.460 Did you intend to interfere?

00:18:07.680 Yeah, you did.

00:18:08.320 You knew what would happen.

00:18:09.180 You fully intended to walk in there, to walk down the aisle, to interrupt the church service

00:18:13.620 in progress.

00:18:15.140 You fully knew.

00:18:17.020 You 100% knew.

00:18:19.180 The payoff to you was different from the payoff to Nakima doesn't make your behavior any more

00:18:25.360 lawful.

00:18:26.940 In this next clip, again, he's on the way to the location before it happens, and he accidentally

00:18:32.460 reveals that he knows exactly where they're going and that it's a place of worship.

00:18:37.360 As Nakima said, this is clandestine, the clandestine operation, and then we can tell you what's going

00:18:46.460 to happen after.

00:18:47.080 We don't know what's happening.

00:18:48.500 We kind of do, but we don't know how it's going to play out.

00:18:50.980 Okay, so we are here.

00:18:55.580 Now, do you think if you just have it, I think maybe if you just have it on the church, but

00:19:00.280 if they see me...

00:19:02.080 Oh, whoops.

00:19:02.760 They're going to know.

00:19:07.360 No?

00:19:08.480 It just depends.

00:19:09.920 If they see me, they're going to know.

00:19:11.440 What?

00:19:12.640 Don't name the location.

00:19:13.960 I'm not blaming the location.

00:19:15.200 But I mean, I'm just wondering if you see me, the folks inside see me.

00:19:21.000 Are the congregants really on live instead of in service right now?

00:19:24.140 No, but they'll be like, why is Don Lemon here?

00:19:26.920 Oh, yeah.

00:19:27.300 Sunday morning.

00:19:28.200 Sunday morning church.

00:19:29.380 Yeah.

00:19:29.720 Okay.

00:19:30.100 We need to surprise them.

00:19:32.580 Well, what else?

00:19:34.380 It's Sunday, and we already said the church.

00:19:36.760 No, we didn't.

00:19:37.580 You said it.

00:19:40.100 Yeah.

00:19:40.960 He wanted it to be a big surprise.

00:19:43.600 He wanted them to get settled in, to say their prayers, to connect with God.

00:19:51.240 And look, I go to church every Sunday.

00:19:55.460 Think about your experience in that pew.

00:19:58.740 You know, I will share something with you.

00:20:03.160 When I go, and probably just like a lot of you, when I go, the first thing I do when I get there is I say my prayers for my family and for people I miss.

00:20:12.020 I think about my sister all the time who died a couple of years ago at age 58.

00:20:16.840 I say prayers for her.

00:20:17.960 I think about her.

00:20:19.200 I pray for my mom, who's 84.

00:20:21.440 And this journalist wanted to make sure people like me were doing that so he could burst in and surprise them.

00:20:32.300 And his giggling asshole producer is under arrest too, so he can fuck right off with Don Lemon. 1.00

00:20:39.120 They didn't have a care for interrupting that holy moment that the individuals inside that church were probably having with God, with Jesus, with loved ones, praying for the people who are suffering, praying for the people who are hurt, praying for the people they've lost, praying for their kids.

00:20:59.540 And in walks Don Lemon with his microphone, shoving it in your pastor's face as that pastor says, get out, get out.

00:21:17.640 And his response is, trauma's part of the process.

00:21:23.980 Trauma's part of it.

00:21:26.240 Being disturbed is our First Amendment right to disturb you.

00:21:31.880 No, it isn't.

00:21:33.740 That's where you're really wrong, Don.

00:21:36.920 About 30 seconds after the protest begins in the middle of the service, he details, of course, as we know now, knowing the protesters were there, about this pastor, not the one who was actually delivering the service, but a different one, apparently being a member of ICE.

00:21:55.840 He knew that.

00:21:57.420 Okay?

00:21:57.720 He knew that that was the reason for the protest.

00:21:59.820 He knew because he was in on it.

00:22:01.780 He was kissing the organizer of the protest before it happened.

00:22:05.760 And he knew they were going to it.

00:22:07.000 He knew everything.

00:22:07.940 There wasn't a piece of this whole thing that Don Lemon wasn't in on in advance.

00:22:13.700 And obviously, he had no problem with any of it.

00:22:17.520 Watch.

00:22:20.560 These are more seats.

00:22:21.880 We do have seats available.

00:22:23.940 The sides here, the transept.

00:22:25.620 The seats open.

00:22:28.180 The seats appear as well.

00:22:32.520 The gospel of John.

00:22:33.780 This video from outside.

00:22:34.780 You hear the pastor.

00:22:35.760 And there it is.

00:22:44.320 Hey, meta record.

00:22:45.160 There's Nekima.

00:22:47.000 Yeah, and there's Don.

00:22:58.720 So, activists are now.

00:23:00.200 They have found out that one of the pastors at the church here in the city and the area.

00:23:18.600 This is a clandestine mission.

00:23:21.100 I think they found out one of, according to them, this is according to Operation Pull-Up,

00:23:26.580 that one of the pastors here is a member of ISA.

00:23:31.640 Oh, how'd you know that, Don?

00:23:35.300 Wow.

00:23:36.740 Seems like you might have had advanced notice of everything.

00:23:39.360 Where the church was, which church it was, when the service was happening, who the priest

00:23:43.460 was, or the minister, or the minister, and what his connections were outside of it.

00:23:47.340 It seems like you kind of knew a lot.

00:23:49.600 It feels a little bit more like, more than just, oh, gee, I had no idea I showed up where

00:23:53.600 Nekima told me, and then I just followed her inside.

00:23:55.640 You knew everything.

00:23:57.300 All right?

00:23:57.640 You knew everything.

00:23:58.240 We know that.

00:23:58.720 Here he is outside the church watching, in his word, traumatized parishioners leave.

00:24:05.960 Is he upset that he participated in causing the trauma?

00:24:08.680 Doesn't seem so.

00:24:10.140 Doesn't really seem so.

00:24:11.280 Watch.

00:24:12.440 Watch this guy here.

00:24:13.540 Look, he's hugging his kid.

00:24:16.380 And, you know, I imagine it's uncomfortable and traumatic for the people here.

00:24:21.560 But again, careful, it's very slippy right here.

00:24:23.780 It's uncomfortable and traumatic for the people here, but that's what really, careful, please,

00:24:27.700 really slippery.

00:24:29.240 Not kidding.

00:24:31.340 That's what protesting is about.

00:24:33.720 And so.

00:24:36.560 That's what protesting is about.

00:24:38.380 Causing trauma to children.

00:24:40.860 Isn't it ironic how he's sitting there, he's so worried about slipping on the ice?

00:24:45.200 He's very worried about his own safety and that of his photog.

00:24:49.580 Doesn't give a shit about the people who are having to run out of the church because of him.

00:24:54.440 And indeed, one broke her arm.

00:24:56.100 According to the federal affidavit in support of the arrests we saw earlier this week.

00:25:01.100 Does he care about her?

00:25:02.780 Did he care about the children?

00:25:03.620 No, trauma is part of it.

00:25:05.520 Trauma is part of it.

00:25:06.280 Well, guess what, Don Lemon?

00:25:07.420 Now you're going to have trauma.

00:25:09.240 It's your turn.

00:25:10.040 He was arrested last night at the Grammys, some sort of Grammy-related event.

00:25:17.180 James Rosen is reporting that law enforcement sources tell Newsmax he briefly resisted arrest

00:25:23.280 by Homeland Security FBI agents in L.A. last night after he'd been handcuffed in a Los Angeles

00:25:29.740 hotel lobby and was taken to an elevator.

00:25:33.260 Now it's time for you to feel some trauma and we don't feel sorry for you because unlike

00:25:41.300 those poor parishioners, you actually did bring this upon yourself.

00:25:44.580 You didn't know the law or you did and you flouted it.

00:25:47.060 Either way, you're in a lot of trouble and it's thanks to your own terrible decision making.

00:25:51.660 Even knowing, even knowing they were traumatized and they were crying and they were scared,

00:25:57.720 you stayed, you giggled, you worried about whether you might slip and fall, but not about

00:26:03.560 a single soul other than yourself and your photog.

00:26:08.560 Joining me now, Mike Davis, founder and president of the Article 3 Project.

00:26:12.440 And for his very first appearance on The Megyn Kelly Show, we've got former federal prosecutor

00:26:15.860 Bill Shipley, who's got literally one of the best legal accounts on X.

00:26:20.620 I follow him religiously, but I've never had him on the show before.

00:26:23.760 You can find him on X at Shipwrecked Crew.

00:26:28.720 Before the cameras, before the ceremony, before history is made, every detail is chosen.

00:26:34.380 From Amazon MGM Studios comes Melania. 0.64

00:26:37.840 This new film takes you inside the 20 days leading up to the 2025 presidential inauguration

00:26:42.740 through the eyes of the first lady herself.

00:26:45.260 Where fashion is not just style, it's strategy.

00:26:47.720 Witness the image-defining decisions made behind closed doors, a celebration of duty and glamour.

00:26:54.360 Melania, only in theaters, starting January 30th.

00:26:58.860 Mike, Bill, welcome to you both.

00:27:00.660 Thanks for being here.

00:27:01.880 Mike, let me start with you.

00:27:02.740 Your reaction to the news and to the people, the leftists all over X with their dramatic,

00:27:10.800 this is about the First Amendment, President Trump has crossed a new line, this is an infringement,

00:27:17.060 and so on.

00:27:18.420 Yeah, journalists do not have the First Amendment right to violate federal law.

00:27:24.860 And that is exactly what Don Lemon and his co-conspirators did here.

00:27:31.580 When they stormed a Christian church during the middle of the service, Don Lemon went up to the pulpit

00:27:38.980 to obstruct the service and debate the pastor during the middle of his service.

00:27:44.040 They terrified the parishioners, including little children.

00:27:48.640 As you said, Megan, a woman fell and broke her arm.

00:27:52.980 This is textbook Facebook, or Face Act violation.

00:27:57.260 This is textbook Klan Act violation under 18 U.S.C. Section 248 and 18 U.S.C. Section 241. 0.67

00:28:06.280 And these Democrats who are wailing about this today know, are very familiar with these charges

00:28:11.080 because the Biden Justice Department under Merrick Garland and Lisa Monaco and Vanita Gupta

00:28:16.380 and Kristen Clark used both of those charges to go after elderly Christians who trespassed 1.00

00:28:23.920 and prayed in abortion centers.

00:28:26.840 So if you're going to use the Face Act to go after elderly Christians in abortion centers, 0.67

00:28:32.180 you can certainly use it to go after Don Lemon and his fellow modern-day Klansmen 0.96

00:28:37.780 who are terrorizing white Christian churches on purpose.

00:28:43.140 That's the thing, Bill.

00:28:44.660 If Don Lemon, or Megyn Kelly for that matter, just trespassed into an abortion clinic,

00:28:52.500 or let's say, no, into a Rite Aid.

00:28:54.220 Okay, let's pick that.

00:28:55.220 It was closed, but somebody opened it, like somebody was burglarizing it,

00:28:59.540 and we walked in without permission.

00:29:01.140 We could be cited for trespass as journalists, but that'd probably be it.

00:29:05.980 We wouldn't be charged for burglarizing necessarily.

00:29:08.260 But they crossed into a facility that has an extra layer of protection.

00:29:14.680 And he messed with the wrong Marine, to quote Colonel Jessup.

00:29:18.440 And that Marine, in this case, was a bunch of parishioners trying to worship,

00:29:22.300 which makes a big difference under the law for Don Lemon.

00:29:26.480 Well, of course.

00:29:27.940 And thank you for having me on, Megan.

00:29:29.400 I'm a longtime fan.

00:29:30.420 Mike and I know each other well.

00:29:33.440 You know, the First Amendment says Congress shall make no law.

00:29:37.920 Journalists typically or generally can avoid prosecution

00:29:42.440 based upon the Department of Justice's forbearance

00:29:46.800 and tolerance for some journalistic activity

00:29:50.680 that might otherwise be in violation of, you know,

00:29:54.040 the strict language of a statute.

00:29:55.960 The FACE Act, however, provides no journalistic exception.

00:30:01.440 If the conduct of a journalist violates the text of the FACE Act or Section 241,

00:30:09.660 the conspiracy against rights, the First Amendment provides no protection.

00:30:15.000 The First Amendment is, in effect, at its core, a constitutional right to prevent the government

00:30:26.460 from banning publication of information.

00:30:31.200 It's not a failsafe.

00:30:34.500 It's not a provision that protects the actions of journalists in pursuing information.

00:30:42.800 And that's what we have here.

00:30:44.400 And, in fact, you know, Mike mentioned the use of the FACE Act by the Biden administration,

00:30:50.480 Biden Justice Department, Merrick Garland.

00:30:51.980 There were multiple conservative journalists prosecuted in connection with January 6th.

00:30:58.700 I represented one of them.

00:31:00.400 And they were there recording the events, video, audio recording.

00:31:05.900 They defended themselves on the basis that they were just observers of the events.

00:31:11.840 But, you know, in their background, in their history, or even on that day,

00:31:16.760 they made comments that the courts viewed that to the protesters, and on that basis,

00:31:24.020 correct, expressions of First Amendment opinion.

00:31:27.040 And the court viewed that sympathy with the protesters as, you know,

00:31:32.520 setting them apart from other journalists.

00:31:37.580 You know, and I represent one of them, Steve Baker, who now works for Glenn Beck and Blaze.

00:31:44.240 We made a motion to dismiss the case against him on the basis of selective prosecution.

00:31:50.340 We identified 60 credentialed and freelance journalists who had not been prosecuted,

00:31:56.000 whereas Steve was singled out and prosecuted.

00:31:58.860 And Judge Cooper in D.C. focused on some of Steve's commentary during the event and after the event

00:32:04.580 and said, well, you know, you really were, you know,

00:32:07.100 your comments express an intention to sort of go along and be part of the protest.

00:32:12.640 Just, well, I, you know, I got to tell you, I'm watching the video you're showing,

00:32:16.800 and a lot of that I had not seen before.

00:32:18.760 And I'm just chuckling to myself, thinking back to my 21 years as a prosecutor and 90 trials,

00:32:24.840 and thinking, he can't get on the stand.

00:32:28.060 He can't get on the stand and defend himself,

00:32:30.780 because he's going to have to eat all these words in front of a jury.

00:32:34.120 Plus, what we don't know yet, you know, what we don't know yet,

00:32:39.140 which I think we will see maybe in the indictment today,

00:32:41.460 and certainly we'll see it in the weeks ahead,

00:32:43.520 is all the communications that the government now has their hands on.

00:32:47.440 Emails, text messages, other kinds of communications,

00:32:51.360 not on video, as he did,

00:32:54.780 but just his, you know, back and forth before and after the event,

00:32:59.080 not just with the organizers of the event,

00:33:00.780 but anything he said to anybody else.

00:33:03.920 There are so many soundbites of Lemon sounding like he's one of them, Mike.

00:33:08.980 I mean, if they want to make that case, as they did in the J6 prosecutions,

00:33:12.800 like he went well beyond journalism, it's not going to be hard.

00:33:16.540 Steve, let's play, is it SOT 8?

00:33:17.900 I know we converged 8 and I think 9 or 10, but let's play that one.

00:33:21.400 SOT 8.

00:33:21.900 This is the beginning of what's going to happen here.

00:33:23.920 When you violate people's due process,

00:33:26.380 when you pull people off the street and you start dragging them and hurting them,

00:33:29.680 and not abiding by the Constitution,

00:33:33.680 when you start doing all of that, people get upset and angry.

00:33:37.320 And if you remember what the Civil Rights Movement was about,

00:33:41.280 the Civil Rights Movement was about these very kinds of protests.

00:33:46.060 And for some reason, in our modern era,

00:33:48.520 people think that in order to have protests,

00:33:50.460 you've got to be cordoned off to a certain area

00:33:54.720 and, you know, what time you can protest.

00:33:59.880 There's nothing in the Constitution that tells you what time you can protest.

00:34:04.640 You can protest at any time.

00:34:05.760 That's the whole point of it, is to disrupt.

00:34:07.800 It's to make uncomfortable.

00:34:09.360 And that's what they're doing.

00:34:10.520 And that's what I believe when I say everyone has to be willing to sacrifice something.

00:34:14.060 You have to make people uncomfortable in these times.

00:34:17.520 If you see how uncomfortable people uncomfortably

00:34:20.060 and how harsh people are being treated on the streets,

00:34:24.080 you have to be willing to go into places and disrupt and make people uncomfortable.

00:34:29.340 That is what this country is about.

00:34:34.060 Mike Davis, that soundbite could be played in the closing argument without much more.

00:34:40.620 I mean, that should be how the prosecution ends its closing and then sits down.

00:34:44.580 Yeah, that watching that makes my blood boil.

00:34:48.080 I went to 13 years of Catholic school.

00:34:50.280 I'm a terrible Catholic, but I remember going to Catholic mass.

00:34:55.140 And I just can't imagine if the mass were stormed like that by these agitators.

00:35:01.220 And the mass was stormed because I went to a white Catholic church.

00:35:06.680 And that's exactly why they did this.

00:35:08.360 They stormed the church because it was a white Christian church.

00:35:12.580 This is textbook, Facebook, act violation, and textbook.

00:35:18.440 And just to interject, he said that.

00:35:21.120 He said that on that podcast with the angry Jennifer lady,

00:35:24.900 that this isn't how I practice Christianity,

00:35:28.060 but these are white supremacists in this church.

00:35:31.640 And he thinks that's why they support this ICE pastor.

00:35:33.820 Sorry, Mike.

00:35:34.220 Yeah, and I'm going to pick up what Bill just said about how the DOJ may have given some forbearance here as a journalist.

00:35:42.140 If the guy went in there and realized, okay, we made a mistake here.

00:35:46.360 We should not have gone in here.

00:35:47.740 But instead, Don Lemon went out there sanctimoniously and doubled down and tripled down and quadrupled down.

00:35:54.800 They had to arrest him.

00:35:56.400 They had to arrest him to not only punish him, but to deter others who think it is acceptable to storm a place of worship during the service.

00:36:07.180 Just imagine if this were a mosque or a black church or a Jewish synagogue.

00:36:13.040 I would be outraged.

00:36:15.360 And it's just because these are white Christians that these Democrats think it's open season.

00:36:21.780 I would say this to Don Lemon.

00:36:23.960 Don Lemon can go to hell.

00:36:26.240 But in the meantime, Pam Bondi is going to put him in prison.

00:36:29.060 Here's that soundbite of him on the podcast the Monday after he did this, which is 24 hours later.

00:36:35.880 I think that there is obviously there's racism.

00:36:39.080 And the whole point of it is that they're detaining people on the streets because of accents and the color of their skin.

00:36:44.660 And they're also targeting people of color and black people as well as brown people.

00:36:50.180 So there is a certain degree of racism there.

00:36:52.520 And there's a certain degree of entitlement.

00:36:53.840 I think people who are, you know, in religious groups like that, it's not the type of Christianity that I practice, but I think that they're entitled.

00:37:01.180 And that entitlement comes from a supremacy, a white supremacy.

00:37:05.540 And they think that this country was built for them, that it is a Christian country, when actually we left England because we wanted religious freedom.

00:37:11.880 It's religious freedom, but only if you're a Christian and only if you're a white male, pretty much. 0.63

00:37:16.320 And so, yeah, absolutely, 100%.

00:37:18.300 But it's an intimidation tactic.

00:37:19.980 On top of that, Bill, here he is on camera, his own, confronting the pastor of the church in the middle of the disruption.

00:37:30.980 Here it is.

00:37:31.580 Our church had gathered for worship, which we do every Sunday.

00:37:35.620 And we were interrupted by this group of protesters.

00:37:39.140 We asked them to leave and they obviously have not left.

00:37:45.140 What do you think of this?

00:37:46.720 I mean, this is unacceptable.

00:37:48.120 It's shameful.

00:37:48.620 It's shameful to interrupt a public gathering of Christians in worship.

00:37:56.200 But there were folks who will say...

00:37:58.040 I have to take care of my flock and my family.

00:38:00.360 Listen, we live in a...

00:38:01.060 There's a constitution in the First Amendment to freedom of speech and freedom to assemble and protest.

00:38:05.880 We're here to worship.

00:38:07.120 We're here to worship Jesus because that's the hope of these cities.

00:38:10.220 That's the hope of the world is Jesus Christ.

00:38:12.120 I want to be very respectful.

00:38:13.100 Please don't push me, though.

00:38:14.100 We're here.

00:38:14.920 We're here to worship Jesus.

00:38:16.760 That's why we're here.

00:38:17.740 Okay?

00:38:18.440 That's why we're here.

00:38:19.500 That's what we're about.

00:38:20.620 Don't you think Jesus would be understanding and love these folks?

00:38:24.520 We're about spreading the love of Jesus.

00:38:26.080 But did you try to talk to them?

00:38:27.540 As a Christian.

00:38:28.300 No one is willing to talk.

00:38:29.440 Okay.

00:38:30.020 I have to take care of my church and my family.

00:38:32.000 So I ask that you actually would also leave this building.

00:38:34.960 You don't want us to chronicle or whatever.

00:38:36.880 Unless you're here to worship.

00:38:37.560 I'm always worship.

00:38:38.380 I'm a Christian.

00:38:38.860 I mean, Bill, it's right there.

00:38:42.000 Black and white.

00:38:43.280 Leave. 0.99

00:38:44.060 Get out.

00:38:44.920 Then he tries to do the, oh, but right to protest, right to write.

00:38:47.340 And the pastor's right on.

00:38:48.700 He keeps bringing it back to, we have a right to worship.

00:38:51.420 We are trying to worship.

00:38:52.960 We have rights, too.

00:38:54.080 Says specifically, I want them out and I want you out. 0.82

00:38:57.960 And Don Lemon doesn't.

00:38:59.440 He doesn't leave.

00:39:00.060 He stays after that.

00:39:01.260 I mean, like, that's a trespass case, but it just, it's all over the place.

00:39:04.060 He's justifying the actions of the, of the protesters.

00:39:06.700 He's refusing to leave when told to.

00:39:08.660 He knows the rest are there illegally.

00:39:10.760 And he's justifying every single outrageous thing that they've done because allegedly First

00:39:15.440 Amendment.

00:39:16.600 Well, the, the, the, the constitution guarantees the free exercise of religion in the same First

00:39:23.280 Amendment.

00:39:24.000 So there's absolutely no basis for Don Lemon to claim that his, uh, First Amendment, you

00:39:31.000 know, right as a member of the press is somehow superior to the First Amendment rights of

00:39:36.500 all those, those people inside, um, to exercise, freely exercise the religion.

00:39:43.300 And, uh, frankly, I think the prosecutor or the, the, the, the, uh, pastor would have been

00:39:48.260 perfectly, uh, within his rights to shove Don Lemon out of the church, uh, it's a bit of

00:39:53.820 self-help, but, but, uh, you know, there, there would have been nothing, nothing wrong with

00:39:58.560 that in my view, and, you know, Don Lemon's not there as a member of the press.

00:40:02.500 I mean, we all know that he's, he might as well be a videographer for the group.

00:40:06.500 He was capturing what they did for their benefit.

00:40:11.960 A very interesting comment you made, uh, back, uh, before we started, uh, discussion,

00:40:17.560 mentioning his finances, you know, him, you know, pitching for people to join his YouTube

00:40:23.820 channel as a subscriber and to, um, you know, help support their independent journalism that

00:40:31.100 opens up all the finances of his enterprise to not just, you know, discovery efforts, but

00:40:39.740 it's all relevant now in the trial.

00:40:42.320 Why was he there?

00:40:44.480 You know, was he there?

00:40:45.880 Exactly.

00:40:46.260 First Amendment, or was he there for the financial well-being of his organization, uh, trying to

00:40:54.540 build it and, and promote it, and, and this was just, it was just a content opportunity,

00:40:59.820 um, that, that's not going anywhere.

00:41:01.860 Something else I want to mention, if you unbolge me just a second, you know, I believe this church

00:41:07.600 is actually in St. Paul, not in Minneapolis, and I've done some digging, you know, there are

00:41:12.540 different federal courthouses in St. Paul and Minneapolis, um, and they're in different

00:41:18.720 counties.

00:41:19.940 Now, as I don't think it's news to anybody here that, that jury pools for federal court

00:41:25.520 are drawn, not just from the city where the event happens, but they're drawn from the federal

00:41:30.680 district and the division within the federal district where the charges are filed.

00:41:36.740 I expect what we're going to see today is an indictment, not out of Minneapolis, not out

00:41:41.380 of the U.S. Attorney, well, but it'll be out of the district of Minnesota, but it won't

00:41:44.500 be filed in the Minneapolis courthouse.

00:41:46.220 It'll be filed in the St. Paul courthouse.

00:41:48.220 And the jury pool for that will come from not just St. Paul, but all of the counties in

00:41:54.920 Minnesota that are within that division of the district of Minnesota.

00:42:01.220 Don Lemon's jury pool is going to consist of a lot of people just like the people trying

00:42:06.720 to worship in that church.

00:42:08.220 Mm-hmm.

00:42:10.340 This isn't a Washington, D.C. situation that Pam Bondi has walked into.

00:42:14.780 It's not a Minneapolis situation.

00:42:16.780 The, the, the, uh, demographics of Minneapolis and St. Paul, my understanding is they're quite

00:42:21.980 different.

00:42:22.900 You know, St. Paul is not a, is not a conservative bastion by any stretch of the imagination, but

00:42:30.120 it is not Minneapolis.

00:42:31.900 Um, you didn't see him rioting and burning down buildings after George Floyd and St.

00:42:37.960 Paul.

00:42:39.420 Good point.

00:42:40.460 You know, uh, Mike, they're already trying to say over on CNN, which was hysterical this

00:42:44.640 morning and so replete with misinformation.

00:42:47.320 Nobody over there knows the law.

00:42:48.500 Honestly, like Ellie Honig is the only guy who even makes an effort at being fair, uh, and

00:42:54.520 actually sticking to the facts.

00:42:55.620 He's a former federal prosecutor, but, um, they didn't have him on this morning.

00:42:58.640 In any event, they are saying that he's doing this.

00:43:01.960 Trump is doing this because Don Lemon is a critic because Don's been critical of, of

00:43:05.620 president Trump.

00:43:06.280 Meanwhile, they arrested another woman there who styled herself as a quote journalist.

00:43:11.620 Her name is Georgia Fort.

00:43:14.060 Um, she used to be a news anchor in Duluth, Minnesota and in Columbus, Georgia, and now

00:43:19.780 has her own independent, I guess, media company called black press.

00:43:24.260 Um, and she was arrested too.

00:43:26.620 And as were several others.

00:43:27.840 So it's not, it isn't just about Don Lemon or critics of president Trump.

00:43:34.480 They, they went after the ring leaders who were there and anybody else who they could

00:43:39.960 identify.

00:43:40.940 And they're still working at, to my understanding is on identifying all the people who participated

00:43:44.740 in this.

00:43:45.460 It has nothing to do with Don Lemon's politics, but, but that's where they're going to go with

00:43:49.820 it.

00:43:49.920 And here's what I wanted to ask you.

00:43:51.380 I told the audience that originally the magistrate judge who was conflicted and wouldn't say that

00:43:56.020 there was probable cause for this case.

00:43:57.480 He kicked it out and said, either improve your probable cause or go to a jury, a grand

00:44:00.840 jury.

00:44:01.460 So they tried to overrule him.

00:44:03.380 Our DOJ did by going to his boss, basically the chief district judge.

00:44:07.140 And that guy said, what are you doing here?

00:44:09.200 I agree with that other guy's remedy, go improve your probable cause affidavit or go to a grand

00:44:14.540 jury.

00:44:14.900 I'm not getting involved.

00:44:16.080 And then they tried to go above him to the eighth circuit.

00:44:18.000 And the eighth circuit said, what are you doing here?

00:44:19.580 You're premature here.

00:44:20.400 We don't take these cases on appeal until they're all done.

00:44:22.720 Get out.

00:44:23.520 So they went to a grand jury and got the indictment.

00:44:25.400 But that chief judge wrote a letter and in his letter, he did say, go to a grand jury.

00:44:32.080 But he also said, I see no evidence to support a case against Don Lemon.

00:44:37.560 And that's all over X this morning.

00:44:39.620 All these journalists are like, there's no evidence.

00:44:42.260 Two judges said that the magistrate judge wouldn't do it.

00:44:45.320 The district judge said there's no evidence.

00:44:47.180 And now this morning, just FYI, reports just in that the Minnesota attorney general, Keith

00:44:52.660 Ellison, who went on Don Lemon's podcast within 24 hours of this event saying you didn't do

00:44:57.320 anything wrong, is now saying the same via paper statement.

00:45:00.880 And on top of that, we are now told that a group of journalists have gathered outside of

00:45:04.640 the federal courthouse in downtown L.A. where Don Lemon is expected to be booked and anti-Ice

00:45:09.120 protest is expected to be held near this afternoon.

00:45:11.700 So we're going to hear all about that judge's conclusion and the magistrate judge not finding

00:45:15.520 PC to begin with.

00:45:16.740 Your thoughts on those angles?

00:45:18.280 Well, that's great.

00:45:19.120 But guess what?

00:45:19.720 The federal grand jury found probable cause because that's how you get an indictment,

00:45:25.300 right?

00:45:25.520 So you can either get an indictment under felony charges, under Rule 7 of the Federal Rules

00:45:30.960 of Criminal Procedure.

00:45:32.340 You can also get a grand jury indictment for misdemeanors, right?

00:45:35.080 That the right to a grand jury indictment belongs to the defendant.

00:45:42.100 So that's why you have to do it for felonies.

00:45:44.080 But the government can certainly go do it for a misdemeanor, like under the FACE Act.

00:45:48.600 And they apparently did.

00:45:50.540 And the grand jury agreed that there was probable cause.

00:45:53.900 I don't think that anyone who watched the videos of your show today, Megan, can say that

00:45:59.440 there's not probable cause to move forward with FACE Act and Klan Act charges against Don

00:46:05.520 Lemon and his fellow Klansmen, right? 0.91

00:46:07.900 So there's no question there's probable cause.

00:46:10.500 And it doesn't matter what these activist judges in Minnesota, hand-selected by Democrat

00:46:16.720 senators, it doesn't matter what they think about this.

00:46:20.820 The grand jury has already said that there is probable cause to move forward.

00:46:24.660 Because people need to know that even though federal district judge may be appointed, if

00:46:31.220 the opening is there under a Republican administration, yes, the president can nominate the judge, but

00:46:36.840 they have to be, Mike's saying, but the Democratic senators, if it's from a blue state like Minnesota,

00:46:42.000 you can nominate all you want.

00:46:43.480 You can nominate a Mike Davis, but he's never going to get through with, because the two blue 1.00

00:46:47.920 state senators are going to say, oh, hell no. 1.00

00:46:49.980 So even under a Republican administration in the blue states, we wind up getting soft Republican

00:46:56.780 or conservative judges during administrations that are held by, you know, a Republican like

00:47:02.760 the Bush administration.

00:47:03.400 I think this chief judge is a Bush administration appointee, but your point is that you can't

00:47:07.640 go with that, because in a state like Minnesota, he would have had to be blessed by the Democrat

00:47:12.700 senators.

00:47:13.420 Okay.

00:47:14.040 Megan, if I can make a comment on that.

00:47:15.840 Yeah, go ahead, Ben.

00:47:16.220 So the timeline here is that this event happened on Sunday morning.

00:47:20.440 On Sunday evening, Assistant Attorney General of Civil Rights Division, Harmeet Dillon, put

00:47:26.820 out on X that she had dispatched prosecutors from her office, so Civil Rights Division prosecutors,

00:47:33.140 to Minnesota.

00:47:34.960 Monday was Martin Luther King Day.

00:47:37.520 On Monday, she posted on X that her prosecutors were working with the FBI.

00:47:44.120 So on Monday, they were working on this.

00:47:45.840 They presented the affidavits in support of a proposed criminal complaint on Wednesday.

00:47:53.880 So they had 48 hours to gather whatever information they could and put that in the affidavit.

00:48:00.280 The magistrate rejected the affidavit.

00:48:02.980 They then made the effort to go seek discretionary review.

00:48:07.040 And the Magistrates Act provides that a district court judge may review any decision made by a magistrate.

00:48:15.060 So he didn't have to do it.

00:48:17.000 But his letter, I mean, I read his letter, got into a little bit of a discussion online over it.

00:48:21.900 It seemed to suggest that he didn't think he had the discretion to do it.

00:48:27.600 And then the government ran to the Eighth Circuit with a petition for rid of mandamus to order him to do it.

00:48:33.520 Now, the commentary about the judge having said there's no probable cause is based upon that initial affidavit filed in 48 hours.

00:48:44.780 We're now eight days after that.

00:48:47.700 The government has had the opportunity, eight days, to accumulate a tremendous amount of more information.

00:48:54.840 Interviewing people that were there, interviewing people that were there, getting their hands on communications with grand jury subpoenas.

00:49:02.000 We don't know yet, but they probably even went and tried to get and maybe did get a search warrant, which you would need to, like, go through open emails.

00:49:11.560 So we're eight days down the road from the information that those judges were presented.

00:49:17.140 And what those judges concluded eight days ago is irrelevant to what has happened.

00:49:24.120 That's a very good point.

00:49:25.080 And I have it on good information that the supporting affidavit here, the supporting evidence here, is very powerful and that they have definitely shorn up their case.

00:49:35.340 So we await that document.

00:49:37.140 It could come at any time.

00:49:38.480 You guys are awesome.

00:49:39.480 That was so good.

00:49:40.400 Thanks, Mike.

00:49:41.060 Thanks, Bill.

00:49:41.760 First, but not last time for you here at the MK Show.

00:49:44.100 Appreciate it.

00:49:44.440 Thanks for coming.

00:49:45.000 Thank you, Megan.

00:49:45.640 See you, Bill.

00:49:46.060 Thank you, Megan.

00:49:46.780 All right.

00:49:47.260 We're not done.

00:49:48.420 Up next, Michael Knowles reacts to the breaking news.

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00:51:05.520 Joining us now for more reaction on the arrest of Don Lemon and others, Michael Knowles, host of the Michael Knowles Show on The Daily Wire.

00:51:14.560 Michael Knowles, your thoughts on Don Lemon being taken away in handcuffs.

00:51:20.200 When I got the news, I was sitting down for my show this morning, I pulled a Mayflower cigar out of my cigar box, I lit it up, I'm a simple man.

00:51:29.000 The feds arrest Don Lemon, I light a cigar.

00:51:32.340 This is, without any qualification, a wonderful thing to happen.

00:51:38.200 It is good for society, it is good for law and order, it's even good for Don Lemon, because the guy is clearly very messed up.

00:51:45.940 Now look, all the public stories about Murph's bar in Sag Harbor, the guy's got a lot of problems, okay?

00:51:51.540 And this is good, he needs to be rehabilitated, he's got a lot of issues, he needs to be corrected.

00:51:56.540 But it's really important, because the biggest impediment, I think, to our having a good, orderly society in recent years has been the establishment media.

00:52:08.180 They're the ones who lie, they're the ones who push their radical policies, they're the ones who protect the horrible politicians.

00:52:13.080 And they've gotten away with it, and what this arrest signifies is that you can't just go about and commit crimes, and then claim journalism as a defense.

00:52:25.500 You know, the idea that Don Lemon could, by all evidence, conspire with this mob, he said, I know a little secret, I know what we're about to do.

00:52:33.080 Go in there, violate federal law, the FACE Act notably, deprive people of their rights, and then say, no, no, I have a camera.

00:52:38.680 Well, I did it. It would be like saying, you go over, you murder your enemy, you shoot him five times in the head, and you say, no, no, no, you can't arrest me, I was going to write an article about it later.

00:52:47.920 That's not a defense. And so, I'm pleased by the arrest.

00:52:52.580 Now, what's very important is, we need serious charges, and we need him to be found guilty.

00:52:59.360 He needs to actually serve time for this.

00:53:01.360 Pro-life grannies served years in the clink for praying at abortion clinics because of FACE Act violations. 0.99

00:53:08.820 Don Lemon needs to serve double that. What he did is much, much worse than what the pro-life grannies did. 0.97

00:53:13.280 So, the fear here is, if he gets off the hook, it'll be good for him, it'll put us in a worse position than we were in the beginning.

00:53:20.820 But that's not an excuse to do nothing. You just have to push ahead. This guy needs to face consequences.

00:53:25.880 I totally agree with that. I agree with every word. I know some people are worried about making him a martyr.

00:53:32.120 That's not the point. He violated the law. It's all there. It's right on camera.

00:53:37.740 It's really not even ambiguous, and people claiming that it is are activists or political hacks.

00:53:43.640 And the point is, is justice going to apply to both sides or isn't it?

00:53:49.060 If the grannies have to go to jail for the abortion clinics, Don Lemon has to go to jail for the church. 1.00

00:53:54.820 Sorry, them's the brakes.

00:53:56.420 I guess the question you would have to ask the people who are defending Don Lemon or saying that he's a martyr or something like that is, okay, did he violate the law?

00:54:05.060 Did it? And just try to figure out, I guess, if they actually defend the FACE Act.

00:54:10.100 By the way, I think the FACE Act is horrible. It obviously only exists to protect abortionists. 0.99

00:54:16.080 Right. It's always been used on the abortion clinics. 0.94

00:54:18.580 That's all it's for. But to get it passed, they had to also carve out protections for churches.

00:54:23.800 Now, I think churches could be protected in plenty of other ways that don't involve the FACE Act.

00:54:28.320 But just get the people who are defending him to ask, okay, did he violate the FACE Act?

00:54:32.200 I think anybody who's being even slightly honest here has to admit, yes, he did that.

00:54:37.240 And so then get them to admit the next principle, which is, okay, well, why should he get off the hook?

00:54:41.980 And they'll say, well, because he's a journalist.

00:54:43.780 So journalists have immunity to commit any crime that they want?

00:54:47.040 I don't think that's a principle of American law.

00:54:49.060 I don't know, Megan, I didn't go to law school, but I don't think that's a part of our law or our jurisprudence.

00:54:53.880 So then on what grounds is he to be defended?

00:54:56.980 And the only grounds is, well, those dirty Christians had it coming. 1.00

00:55:00.900 Those white people in Minnesota who that ICE agent that they said was being harbored in the church,

00:55:07.580 they had it coming.

00:55:08.460 And it's okay to break the law if it punishes our political enemies.

00:55:11.520 And I think if you scratch the left on this far enough, that's what you're going to get to, which is a preposterous argument.

00:55:17.920 I just, I hope it comes to a consequence because Don Lemon right now must be feeling either that he's in trouble,

00:55:25.880 you know, he might actually go to the clink, or he might say, great, this is act two of my career.

00:55:31.100 My career was in the doldrums.

00:55:32.620 Now I've got a lot of attention, which is obviously what I was craving.

00:55:35.780 And so the stakes are very high.

00:55:37.700 The DOJ is in a slightly tough position here because I think they really need to come through.

00:55:44.840 I think they do too.

00:55:46.060 And good for them for swinging for the fences on it because there were a lot of pressure on them from the left

00:55:50.040 not to touch anybody who calls themselves a journalist.

00:55:53.860 And they blew through that, understanding that this is a serious before and after moment,

00:55:57.940 going into a church and doing this.

00:55:59.740 And you've got Lemon, I just played the soundbite, Michael.

00:56:02.420 Here's the transcript of it, of what he said.

00:56:04.200 On camera, to, like, inside the church, he said, quoting,

00:56:11.140 you can protest at any time.

00:56:13.300 He says there's nothing in the Constitution that tells you what time you can protest.

00:56:17.120 No, but there are time, place, and manner restrictions that have been upheld under case law

00:56:21.240 interpreting the Constitution for decades.

00:56:24.740 So he says you can protest at any time.

00:56:27.520 That's the whole point of it, to disrupt.

00:56:30.240 It's to make uncomfortable.

00:56:33.040 And that's what they're doing.

00:56:34.780 And that's what I believe when I say everyone has to be willing to sacrifice something.

00:56:40.200 Right?

00:56:40.740 You too, Don.

00:56:42.020 You're about to sacrifice your freedom to have disrupted and to have been made,

00:56:47.160 made the people feel uncomfortable.

00:56:49.540 You have to make people uncomfortable, he says, in these times.

00:56:52.740 You see how uncomfortable people,

00:56:55.100 how uncomfortably and how harsh people are being treated on the streets.

00:56:58.600 So you have to be willing to go into places and disrupt and make people uncomfortable.

00:57:04.680 That is what this country is about.

00:57:07.120 He is completely in solidarity with the protesters.

00:57:10.780 He's making their case on camera to encourage it.

00:57:13.800 He's arguing with the pastor about how this is necessary and he should take it.

00:57:18.840 Honestly, I have to tell you, Michael, this is very creepy,

00:57:20.740 but to me, his whole, like, trauma is part of it.

00:57:23.260 And you have to be, you have to make people uncomfortable.

00:57:25.840 That's all part of it.

00:57:26.400 He sounds to me like a weird sexual assaulter talking to his victim.

00:57:31.340 Like, this is part of it.

00:57:33.300 The trauma is part of it.

00:57:35.280 Just take it.

00:57:36.580 Just get used to it.

00:57:37.860 Just lie back and take it.

00:57:39.240 Given some of the other allegations against Don Lemon,

00:57:41.400 I guess that's probably par for the course.

00:57:43.360 I think your observation here, Megan, is key.

00:57:45.640 What the defense is going to claim is that he was a passive observer,

00:57:50.800 a reporter committing an act of journalism.

00:57:53.380 And all of the evidence we have is that he was not a passive observer.

00:57:56.840 He was an active participant.

00:57:59.140 He didn't just stumble onto this news story.

00:58:01.420 He rode up there with the criminals, with the mob.

00:58:06.580 He knew what they were going to do ahead of time.

00:58:09.300 He participated in that.

00:58:10.820 As you point out, he made their case for them on air.

00:58:14.480 He's also on camera giving them coffee and donuts in solidarity.

00:58:18.100 Oh, we have that.

00:58:18.660 Yeah, I mean, there's...

00:58:19.560 Well, let me show that, Michael.

00:58:20.580 Good point.

00:58:21.240 We haven't shown that yet.

00:58:22.240 Here it is.

00:58:23.280 Wait a minute.

00:58:24.200 You want some coffee?

00:58:25.320 All right.

00:58:26.080 Thank you.

00:58:26.940 Anybody want some coffee?

00:58:28.120 You're good.

00:58:29.320 You're welcome.

00:58:30.000 Anybody want any more?

00:58:31.240 Yeah, you're good.

00:58:31.760 We're out here.

00:58:32.600 Good, good.

00:58:33.620 You want some?

00:58:34.520 I'm good.

00:58:34.960 Thank you.

00:58:35.400 Want any coffee?

00:58:36.320 Thank you.

00:58:36.520 You guys want any coffee?

00:58:37.500 I'm good.

00:58:37.900 Thank you.

00:58:38.460 What about you, brother?

00:58:39.360 Appreciate what you do, Don?

00:58:40.500 Good, thank you.

00:58:41.560 You're good?

00:58:42.080 Yeah, we're good.

00:58:42.800 Thank you.

00:58:43.920 You're good?

00:58:44.920 Good, thank you.

00:58:45.840 All right.

00:58:48.080 I'm here.

00:58:48.920 I'm here.

00:58:49.500 I'm here.

00:58:51.140 I'm here.

00:58:52.060 You guys want some?

00:58:53.060 You don't want to wash that down with anything?

00:58:57.020 In all my years covering the Westboro Baptist Church or Code Pink or the Women's March,

00:59:03.020 I never joined Michael Knowles.

00:59:05.120 Never.

00:59:05.680 I never served coffee, donuts.

00:59:07.680 I never said good when they were telling me about their plans.

00:59:12.640 Never.

00:59:13.280 I never gave them any assistance or aid whatsoever because that would be crossing an ethical line

00:59:20.020 for a journalist.

00:59:21.040 Of course.

00:59:21.560 I've never even given coffee and donuts to the subjects that I interview that I like,

00:59:26.180 much less the ones that I don't like.

00:59:28.360 To the staff of the Michael Knowles show.

00:59:29.780 Yeah, certainly not.

00:59:30.340 You kidding me?

00:59:31.060 We run a tight ship around here.

00:59:32.720 This is so above and beyond.

00:59:35.680 And, by the way, it is incriminating.

00:59:37.760 You know, I know Don Lemon wanted to get some great clips out of this, and he did.

00:59:41.680 He went viral for it.

00:59:42.620 But this is incriminating because it shows that he is an active participant here.

00:59:46.540 And I would go even further.

00:59:48.460 You know, if Don Lemon were really pressed on this, I would put it back on him and say,

00:59:53.700 well, hold on, so you're not in solidarity with the protesters?

00:59:56.980 Because, obviously, the whole reason that he's there is to express this solidarity,

01:00:01.280 to suck up to an audience that is promoting political violence and violations of federal

01:00:06.320 law and undermining other federal law like immigration enforcement.

01:00:09.700 So I'd put him in this position and say, hold on, you've been on camera now for weeks

01:00:13.840 talking about how you stand with these people.

01:00:15.760 Now that's put you in legal hot water because it impelled you to commit a crime.

01:00:19.980 And so now you're going to try to say you don't stand with these people.

01:00:22.720 Which one is it?

01:00:23.960 He can't have it both ways.

01:00:26.000 You know, I think he just got a little too far out ahead of his skis.

01:00:29.380 He was upset that he lost his career in cable news, and he wanted to try to make his bones

01:00:34.740 in new media.

01:00:35.860 Not everyone is that good at it.

01:00:37.140 Not everyone can pull a Megyn Kelly and go from TV to new media and then dominate new media 1.00

01:00:41.400 too.

01:00:41.980 Don Lemon was basically pushed to the side of the media world.

01:00:45.660 He saw this as his opening, and he got a little too excited, and he committed a very

01:00:50.260 serious federal crime.

01:00:52.720 And that's the problem for Don Lemon.

01:00:54.740 If he had stayed on that sidewalk, this wouldn't be happening to him.

01:00:57.940 But he didn't.

01:00:58.820 He joined the mob.

01:00:59.920 He disrupted the service.

01:01:01.440 He got in the face of the pastor and other parishioners.

01:01:04.780 He was told to leave.

01:01:06.040 He refused.

01:01:07.380 He's in a lot of trouble.

01:01:08.860 And it's not because President Trump doesn't like Don Lemon.

01:01:11.960 Trust me, there are many other journalists, ones who actually have power, unlike Don Lemon,

01:01:16.720 who President Trump would love to take out, but doesn't.

01:01:20.200 This isn't about any vendetta against Lemon.

01:01:22.480 He would have been picking on him and trying to get him fired from CNN.

01:01:25.500 He would have been, like, actively interfering in Don's life long before this.

01:01:28.980 This is about what Don Lemon chose to do and who he chose to target.

01:01:31.880 I want to give you a flavor for what we're hearing from the insane left.

01:01:37.080 Jim Acosta.

01:01:38.800 This is outrageous and cannot stand.

01:01:40.960 I know you really wanted to ask.

01:01:42.080 You're asking yourself, what is Jim Acosta?

01:01:43.040 Every morning I wake up.

01:01:44.280 What does Jim think?

01:01:45.240 Please.

01:01:45.440 If he could set the standards of journalism for me, then I could finally proceed with my day.

01:01:51.920 This is outrageous and cannot stand.

01:01:54.280 The First Amendment is under attack in America.

01:01:57.020 Julie K. Brown, who did a good job breaking the Epstein story, but is a partisan hack.

01:02:02.080 She's gone ever, like, we covered Epstein.

01:02:03.880 We have covered Epstein just as aggressively as anybody, especially, like, the substantive allegations against Epstein.

01:02:10.540 We asked her to come on many times to just explain them.

01:02:13.020 From the beginning of the launch of this show all the way, she'll never come on.

01:02:16.660 She will not appear because she only wants to talk about it in front of left-wing hacks. 0.99

01:02:21.480 First, they came for the journalists.

01:02:24.180 We don't know what happened after that.

01:02:26.940 Hashtag free Don Lemon.

01:02:29.820 Here's Jon Favreau from the Pod Save Group.

01:02:33.020 Do we think Newsom's DOJ will start with the Megyn Kelly and Matt Walsh types

01:02:38.340 or just make it more efficient by raiding Fox and arresting everyone?

01:02:43.020 Then there's Lulu Garcia of the New York Times.

01:02:45.980 OMG, I never thought I'd see this in America.

01:02:50.280 Journalist Don Lemon arrested after protests that disrupted Minnesota church service.

01:02:56.320 I mean, I'm surprised she didn't see this happen because it happened to the tune of six or five or six journalists

01:03:03.780 who were arrested after January 6th, which wasn't that long ago.

01:03:07.760 It did happen.

01:03:09.220 I guess she just didn't think that one was as interesting.

01:03:11.920 I hope this becomes a referendum on the First Amendment.

01:03:15.200 I hope so.

01:03:15.700 That's what the left wants to make it because they think that the facts are on their side.

01:03:18.900 They're not.

01:03:19.380 This is a little bit of a hobby horse of mine.

01:03:20.780 I wrote a whole book called Speechless about the limits of the First Amendment and our free speech tradition.

01:03:25.040 A lot of people who are going out, blocking traffic, obstructing law enforcement, driving SUVs into cops,

01:03:30.420 they think that all of that activity is protected by some right to protest.

01:03:34.300 It is not.

01:03:35.240 That's nowhere in the First Amendment.

01:03:36.900 That's nowhere in our legal tradition.

01:03:39.000 We have the right to peaceably assemble.

01:03:41.240 We have the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

01:03:44.480 That's why we have to do so in an orderly way.

01:03:47.040 There are licenses that you have to, permits that you have to receive.

01:03:50.700 That's what it's for, and all of that is protected.

01:03:54.480 When it comes to journalism, when it comes to freedom of speech, we have broad freedom of speech in the country,

01:04:00.100 but there's a lot of speech that's not protected.

01:04:02.540 Speech like obscenity, speech like direct threats, speech like fighting words, and so on.

01:04:08.240 You cannot use free speech as a justification to commit additional crimes.

01:04:14.000 You cannot claim that your status as a journalist, whatever that means in the era of the citizen journalist and of the new media,

01:04:22.960 gives you some kind of blanket immunity to break the law.

01:04:25.700 That's not true.

01:04:26.300 That's never been what the First Amendment means from the very beginning.

01:04:30.440 Immediately, almost after the ratification of the Constitution, the federal government clarified what sort of speech was off limits

01:04:36.560 and what kind of speech acts are off limits.

01:04:39.060 So I think it's great.

01:04:40.080 I think a lot of our present political ills are because people sincerely have no idea what is actually meant by our free speech tradition,

01:04:46.600 and then they go out and commit a bunch of crimes, whether it means they're going to riot in the streets of Minneapolis in 2020 and 2025 and 26,

01:04:52.740 or whether it means that you're going to invade a church and call it journalism.

01:04:56.960 Yeah, great.

01:04:57.640 Let's make this about the First Amendment.

01:04:59.060 It kind of reminds me of how, you know, when President Trump went into Venezuela,

01:05:04.940 Nicolas Maduro previously had said, come and get me, come and get me.

01:05:08.240 That's what Don Lemon was doing here.

01:05:09.780 It was a game of chicken.

01:05:11.000 He was saying, you know, look, I'm going to go right up here.

01:05:13.540 I'm going to break the law, and you guys are too chicken to come and arrest me.

01:05:17.000 So I think the Trump DOJ had to come in and enforce the law here. 0.80

01:05:22.360 It's the same kind of thing we see with the body camera debate.

01:05:25.540 You know, the left for years said that the cops need to wear body cameras because when we finally get to the truth of what's going on,

01:05:31.960 that's going to vindicate the left, and it's going to make the cops look terrible.

01:05:34.620 What happened?

01:05:35.240 It's exactly the opposite.

01:05:36.320 Body cams come around.

01:05:37.920 All the footage makes the criminals look awful, totally exonerates the cops.

01:05:41.460 I think if we get down to the heart of the matter here, the truth of our law, the truth of what these journalists are really doing,

01:05:46.800 it's going to be a massive win from the right and not a moment too soon.

01:05:49.660 The Harmeet Dillon was on the program last week saying it's not as though just because you're a journalist you get an invisibility cloak while you're going in to help commit the crimes.

01:06:01.440 You know, like you don't have some special immunity that the other people don't have while you're in the middle of committing a crime.

01:06:09.220 We were watching a crime on that Don Lemon videotape.

01:06:11.660 By the way, the stuff that we saw on video only really tells half the story.

01:06:18.120 Some of the reports that we now have coming out of the courts because of the other prosecutions in this case show that when this mob went in there,

01:06:24.160 they didn't just start chanting randomly in the air.

01:06:26.100 They blocked off the Sunday school where the kids were from their parents so the parents couldn't even get to the kids.

01:06:32.880 In one case, you had one of these lunatic activists screaming in the face of crying kids saying your parents are Nazis and your parents are going to go to hell.

01:06:42.620 You know, actually tormenting these kinds of children, creating a very dangerous situation.

01:06:48.000 So I want all the facts to come to light here and I want all the facts of Don Lemon's involvement to come to light.

01:06:52.900 He already teased it himself on camera.

01:06:55.280 Tee hee hee, I have a secret.

01:06:57.180 I know what's about to go down here.

01:06:58.940 I want to know about those meetings beforehand.

01:07:00.800 I want to see his text threads with all of the organizers.

01:07:03.860 I want to see his take on going in to violate federal law.

01:07:09.080 You know, it'd be one thing if he could claim ignorance and maybe is a fairly ignorant guy.

01:07:13.880 But ignorance of the law is no defense, first of all.

01:07:16.560 And I think it goes deeper than that.

01:07:18.000 I think he knew that this was a major provocation.

01:07:21.160 He thought that the Trump administration was too chicken.

01:07:23.300 He got called on his bluff.

01:07:26.100 Yeah, that's exactly right.

01:07:27.740 He's he did.

01:07:29.060 The FACE Act says, again, you cannot by force, threat of force or by physical obstruction, which has been interpreted to mean blocking entrances, blocking exits, even blocking pathways, even getting in the way of somebody who's in an abortion clinic or here, a church.

01:07:47.720 You cannot, by doing any of that, interfere with any person attempting to exercise their religious freedom.

01:07:57.580 I mean, it's all there on camera.

01:08:00.080 Don Lemon may not have been personally blocking an exit or an entrance, but he absolutely was obstructing the aisles and the areas of that church, including right up at the altar with that pastor.

01:08:12.000 He it's there.

01:08:13.340 Yes.

01:08:13.820 And honestly, like this is actually something where I think one of my listeners or viewers wrote in and said, this could be a situation where it's not we're like they not only did they prevent them from leaving, but they prevented them from attending.

01:08:29.520 You know, like that's the whole point is that the mass blew up.

01:08:33.540 The service blew up.

01:08:34.980 Nobody got nobody fulfilled their Sunday obligation that day.

01:08:37.940 You know, they were not able to complete the act that they were there for.

01:08:42.400 So this is this is the equivalent of like you're at an abortion clinic and you didn't actually stop the woman from going into the surgery room, but you did something so disruptive that everyone had to evacuate the clinic.

01:08:55.920 You would not get out of a face act violation for that.

01:09:00.100 That's still an obstruction of what the person was there to do.

01:09:03.600 Of course. And in in the case of the abortion clinic application, the left would be up in arms.

01:09:10.040 It would be an international outcry if someone heaven forfend prevented a woman from murdering her own child here.

01:09:16.360 Of course, it's actually ironic that the face act protects these two diametrically opposed things.

01:09:21.800 One, you know, infanticide and one worshiping God in a church. 0.94

01:09:25.760 But but here, of course, they're going to see no problem with it.

01:09:29.180 They'll see it as some First Amendment right.

01:09:31.120 So it's great.

01:09:31.740 I can't wait for them to to defend people demonstrating in abortion clinics.

01:09:35.380 I'll probably be waiting for a long time on that front.

01:09:39.280 Oh, you know, let me tell you something.

01:09:41.500 Let me tell you something.

01:09:42.060 If Don Lemon, if this case gets thrown out, you know, by a judge when when we get into motion practice, you and I should go together to an abortion clinic.

01:09:53.380 Great. Let's go in.

01:09:54.640 Yep. And, you know, we can pick it.

01:09:56.720 You can be the protester and I'll be the journalist or vice versa, whatever.

01:09:59.420 Sure. But if I'm the journalist, I'm just going to hold a mic.

01:10:03.060 You you're going to cause mayhem in there.

01:10:05.400 You're going to you're just going to run around.

01:10:06.920 You're going to intimidate people.

01:10:08.240 You're going to scream.

01:10:09.100 You're Nazis.

01:10:10.280 You're your baby killers. 0.96

01:10:11.980 You're going to get right up and get up to in the faces of the of the clinic providers, scare the women who are there to the point where they're crying.

01:10:17.960 And I'm going to be on camera saying this is what it's all about to disrupt.

01:10:22.180 This is as American as apple pie.

01:10:24.540 And then we will see what the next Democrat administration does and whether they all rush to defend you and me, Julie Kay Brown and Jim Acosta and Jon Favreau of the Ponce.

01:10:36.080 And Don Lemon. I'm sure Don Lemon will have us on whatever show he has now to defend us, to defend our First Amendment rights, of course.

01:10:42.500 Right. I don't know.

01:10:45.360 We might maybe I'll have to identify as trans so we can at least bunk up in the prison cell together that they send us to. 0.99

01:10:52.180 You'd be a great roommate.

01:10:53.320 I would accept that.

01:10:54.100 You'd be the one I would I would say yes to.

01:10:55.600 Here's the other person who's already been arrested as the ringleader.

01:11:00.040 Her name is Nakima Levy Armstrong.

01:11:01.960 I play this because it's very interesting where they're going with it now.

01:11:05.840 OK, and I should mention three other people were arrested today besides Don Lemon.

01:11:11.520 There's Georgia Fort, who I mentioned.

01:11:13.620 She describes herself as an independent journalist based in Minnesota.

01:11:17.620 There's Traherne Jean Cruz, who was a co-founder of is a co-founder of Black Lives Matter Minnesota.

01:11:26.280 Big on the George Floyd thing.

01:11:28.680 There's Jamal Lydell Lundy, who is an aide to the Soros based prosecutor out there in Minneapolis, Mary Moriarty.

01:11:37.620 And he works in local government there.

01:11:40.720 And then I was told that Don Lemon's producer was also indicted.

01:11:48.040 But the press release or the post on X from Pam Bondi says at my direction early this morning, federal agents arrested Lemon, Traherne, Georgia and Jamal.

01:12:01.080 So I think I'm guessing then that Lemon's producer is yet to come.

01:12:05.520 I think I have been reliably told that he was indicted.

01:12:08.680 So we'll see whether that pans out.

01:12:09.860 We'll cover it either way, whether it's true or it's not true.

01:12:12.360 We'll update the audience.

01:12:13.600 But OK, let's get back to Nakima, who was arrested along with that other lady and William Kelly last week.

01:12:21.960 Here is her take on what her arrest in this week have been like for her.

01:12:26.540 So 26.

01:12:26.980 We had belly chains around our waist and we had handcuffs with bars in the middle.

01:12:34.340 As someone who majored in African-American studies, I can tell you that that is the closest I ever felt to slavery in my life.

01:12:42.500 Being shackled as if I was a slave.

01:12:47.840 It is unacceptable and unconscionable.

01:12:52.260 It's great to work your priors.

01:12:53.960 She sounds like someone who majored in African-American studies.

01:12:58.260 That part I totally believe.

01:13:00.420 Generally speaking, any department in a university that ends with studies, it's not a real department.

01:13:07.860 You're not learning a lot in that department.

01:13:10.200 And here she's saying, well, you see, there's this superficial similarity because criminals are in chains and slaves are also in chains.

01:13:18.320 Which makes me think, as a boy, I would wear a Paul O'Neill jersey, a big Yankee fan.

01:13:23.720 I'm still a big Yankee fan.

01:13:25.420 So does that mean that I'm a professional baseball player?

01:13:28.140 Am I a New York Yankee?

01:13:29.200 I don't, you know, superficial similarities do not necessarily signify any real similarity.

01:13:36.540 So I guess maybe this would be her argument.

01:13:39.840 If the chains themselves are what's so bad, then we need to abolish all of the prisons, right?

01:13:44.180 You know, I was saying that as kind of a punchline, but probably...

01:13:47.240 I think that is what she thinks is a BLM-er. 0.69

01:13:49.200 Yeah, that's right.

01:13:50.500 Yeah, amazing.

01:13:51.620 Like, the closest I ever felt to a slave.

01:13:54.280 How did you get in handcuffs again, Nakima?

01:13:56.560 Oh, wait, you terrorized a room full of children and churchgoers.

01:14:00.300 That's what happens.

01:14:01.220 Broken bones happen.

01:14:02.620 People in tears and terrified.

01:14:04.260 That's what you did.

01:14:05.620 That's why I'm not in cuffs.

01:14:07.380 Michael Knowles is not in cuffs.

01:14:08.980 But you are.

01:14:10.500 Something is different between the three of us.

01:14:13.000 But she's had him in a hell of a week there, Michael Knowles.

01:14:15.340 Because listen, listen, listen to this.

01:14:19.180 Top 30.

01:14:22.460 Once we got to the Sherbourne County Jail, we were strip searched.

01:14:27.220 We were placed in jail uniforms.

01:14:30.100 We were locked in cells side by side.

01:14:32.380 And I'm not even going to talk about what they tried to feed us that look like mystery meat that makes me sad for the people who are currently incarcerated and not even being fed decently for their survival.

01:14:45.240 I didn't want to use the restroom in my cell.

01:14:49.260 Why?

01:14:49.780 Because there's a camera watching your every move.

01:14:52.920 This is in spite of going through x-ray machines and being strip searched where they know you have no contraband.

01:14:59.060 And yet still there's a camera in your room watching you with nothing else in there but a bed on cement and a metal toilet that doubles as a water fountain.

01:15:09.900 Note to Nakima, we're not really arresting the best people, so generally we like to keep an eye on them.

01:15:20.200 I love the complaint.

01:15:21.440 She thought she was going to the Ritz, Michael Knowles.

01:15:24.040 I wonder, did she expect foie gras?

01:15:25.860 They didn't even serve me creme brulee afterward.

01:15:30.000 Not even a tasty little snack to follow my meal.

01:15:33.840 Well, she seems genuinely surprised by this.

01:15:37.620 Mystery meat.

01:15:37.920 Mystery meat.

01:15:38.880 This wasn't even grass-fed wagyu.

01:15:41.640 No, it wasn't.

01:15:42.760 Because prison, this is truly, this has been lost on the left.

01:15:47.840 But I think it's been lost on some parts of the right, too.

01:15:50.960 Prison is for punishing people.

01:15:53.480 That's what it's for.

01:15:55.500 We often hear we have overpopulation of the prisons.

01:16:00.260 That is not true.

01:16:01.300 As long as crime is going up, as long as crime is substantial, we have a severe under-incarceration problem.

01:16:07.400 The purpose of the criminal justice system primarily is retribution.

01:16:11.600 There are secondary purposes, which is rehabilitation or deterrence.

01:16:15.700 But the primary purpose, the reason we arrest you and put you in the clink in the first place, is because you did something wrong.

01:16:21.120 And when you do something wrong, you get punished and you don't get foie gras.

01:16:25.240 If this woman had majored in criminology rather than African-American studies, maybe she would have learned that. 0.99

01:16:31.420 Maybe not.

01:16:33.840 Here's Jamel Hill.

01:16:35.580 Always a radical.

01:16:37.100 They arrested Don Lemon.

01:16:38.300 This is horrifying.

01:16:39.440 I don't care what your political beliefs or leanings are.

01:16:41.640 By the way, that's a lie.

01:16:42.540 She very much cares.

01:16:43.980 What journalism outlet you represent.

01:16:45.900 This absolutely cannot stand.

01:16:47.660 He did not participate.

01:16:49.440 Jamel, take the time.

01:16:51.260 Watch the tape.

01:16:52.400 Don did not enter the church until the protest began.

01:16:55.780 Also not true.

01:16:57.200 He interviewed the people protesting and showed what they were doing.

01:17:00.600 That's what journalists do.

01:17:02.520 In response to which Stephen L. Miller responded, if you really want your mind blown, he violated the KKK act.

01:17:09.740 She's going to fall out of her seat when she hears that. 0.99

01:17:13.160 And, okay, and speaking of making it a black thing, here's thought 29 from Nakima. 0.64

01:17:22.340 Here we are, black women, nonviolent, our only weapons are voices, being treated like Hannibal Lecter, being treated like a mass murderer.

01:17:36.740 Tell me where is the justice in that.

01:17:40.200 And, media, you have a responsibility, as I said before, because you all participate in spinning headlines and turning us into criminals.

01:17:49.500 Even though we are standing up for the poor, we're standing up for the vulnerable, we are standing up for the truth.

01:17:56.180 I don't think Hannibal Lecter was, even in the fictional version of, you know, the movie, was allowed out on bail in, like, a nice suit to talk to the media without his weird face mask on, Michael.

01:18:11.140 I don't, I'm not sure it's identical.

01:18:12.980 They're going to treat me like Hannibal Lecter, and they won't even serve me fava beans with a nice glass of Chianti.

01:18:19.840 I think she's very upset by the quality of the food.

01:18:22.560 I see this as a recurring theme.

01:18:24.480 The point that she's making about the protests, or that Jamil Hill's making about the protests, we have to correct the language here.

01:18:31.300 What occurred in that church is not a protest.

01:18:33.880 Even before you had reminded me that Don Lemon's being charged under the Ku Klux Klan Act, the comparison with the Klan is apt. 1.00

01:18:41.740 Because, you should ask these people, would you consider a lynching, or even just a milder cross-burning, to be a protest?

01:18:50.180 You know, in a way, it's a kind of a protest.

01:18:52.120 It's a gathering of people who are angry about something, who want some of their grievances redressed.

01:18:56.700 That's true, and so in that way, it's similar to the mob that showed up to the church.

01:19:01.180 But it's obviously not a protest, because protests are constitutionally protected acts, and what those people are doing is a criminal act.

01:19:09.260 And so, just as you don't get to host the lynching or the cross-burning, and claim it as a constitutionally protected protest, or an act of journalism if someone's filming it or something, the same holds true of the church.

01:19:22.040 What happened in that church was many things, and it violated multiple laws.

01:19:26.340 What it emphatically was not is a protest.

01:19:28.920 Well, you've got now these BLMers, because it's no accident that the George Floyd crew from Minneapolis is jumping in on this, that they were the ones who did the church so-called protest.

01:19:40.400 I mean, it was terrorism to me.

01:19:43.700 That Don Lemon, also, in the wake of last Sunday and the threats of arrest, played the race card.

01:19:50.060 You're shocked.

01:19:50.920 I know, shocked.

01:19:52.840 This is the soundbite here, SOT18, because there's an update here.

01:19:57.200 SOT18 first.

01:19:58.760 And, you know, I said, I don't understand how I've become the face of it when I was a journalist.

01:20:03.020 I do understand that.

01:20:04.000 I'm the biggest name there.

01:20:05.600 And I'm also, as I was on with my producers this morning, you know, you and Kylie talk all the time.

01:20:09.940 My producers were saying, I said, how did I become the face of this?

01:20:12.540 And my producer said, Don, you're a gay black man in America, and you have a platform, and you're the biggest name.

01:20:17.720 Of course you're going to be the person that they single out, and they're going to make the headline, because it plays to their base.

01:20:23.920 And their base is full of racist, bigoted homophobes, like Nicki Minaj, by the way.

01:20:32.260 Okay.

01:20:33.060 So he tried.

01:20:34.580 There's a lot in there.

01:20:35.580 Gay black man, gay black man. 1.00

01:20:36.800 I don't know if you were aware that Don Lemon is a gay black man, Michael.

01:20:39.960 He never mentions it.

01:20:40.740 He doesn't, no.

01:20:41.780 It's news.

01:20:42.480 I'm hearing it for the first time.

01:20:44.060 It's news to me.

01:20:44.760 So, there he is, mentioning it again before the DOJ.

01:20:51.240 He said it before he got fired from CNN, just to remind everybody I'm gay and I'm black.

01:20:56.280 Didn't work.

01:20:57.080 Didn't work here again.

01:20:58.180 You'd think he'd stop doing it.

01:21:00.060 Nicki Minaj did have thoughts on Don Lemon.

01:21:03.020 She sat down with Katie Miller, and here's how that went.

01:21:06.000 So, 32.

01:21:07.160 You called for Don Lemon's arrest over his church stunt in Minneapolis.

01:21:10.280 He's since called you racist, unhinged, homophobic, and out of your death.

01:21:14.760 Anything you'd like to say to Don Lemon?

01:21:17.520 Cocksucker, stop. 1.00

01:21:25.040 Wow.

01:21:26.180 It's dangerous to play with people who do not give an F.

01:21:29.620 I also don't really get, so he's upset because Nicki Minaj likes Trump, and she showed up to America Fest, sat down with Erica Kirk.

01:21:36.800 Then she just was with the president the other day.

01:21:38.580 So, she's out in the open.

01:21:40.380 She's on the American right. 0.74

01:21:41.680 That's great.

01:21:42.280 And so he says, she's homophobe and this and that. 0.75

01:21:45.660 But he also said she's an anti-black racist, which I think weakens his argument.

01:21:51.340 Because I'm not super familiar with Nicki Minaj's oeuvre, but it seems to me that that's a hard claim to make.

01:21:57.900 Like, yes, that whole interaction with Don Lemon, it reminds me of a clip, this was years ago, with David Webb.

01:22:05.260 It was on Fox.

01:22:06.180 He was doing his radio show.

01:22:07.320 And someone called in, and he was making a conservative argument.

01:22:09.920 And the person just lazily said, well, that's just your white privilege talking.

01:22:14.680 And David started laughing.

01:22:15.960 Yes, for the listeners who are not familiar, David Webb, very much a black man, but this was radio, and so the caller didn't know that.

01:22:24.440 And it was just this gut, you know, knee-jerk reaction, this lazy kind of attack to say, well, you know, you're only attacking me because I'm black, or a woman, or this or that.

01:22:34.160 So that's what Don Lemon's doing.

01:22:35.920 And I think, actually, the desperation of his excuses, which in some ways are inconsistent, contradictory, the Nicki Minaj line, I think it shows you he realizes he doesn't have a real leg to stand on for what he did.

01:22:49.600 And so he has to try to just throw spaghetti at the wall to mix all of my metaphors and try to puff himself up.

01:22:57.560 And go back again to his priors.

01:22:59.760 Gay, black, you can't do it to me. 0.95

01:23:01.960 I'm a gay, black man.

01:23:03.040 I suppose he went through the same search that Nakima did last night.

01:23:08.540 Look forward to hearing all about that on his live feed when he gets out on bail, which he will.

01:23:13.840 I want to shift gears slightly because yesterday we devoted the program to questioning what exactly has changed in Minneapolis.

01:23:22.120 Because Tom Holman, who we love, got out there and said, I talked to Keith Ellison.

01:23:27.380 I made good progress with him.

01:23:29.060 He's now saying that he's going to cooperate with us on allowing ICE to make arrests at the county jails in Minnesota.

01:23:37.920 That before somebody gets out, you know, like whatever this guy we know is illegal and he DWI'd.

01:23:43.380 He's in prison for two years.

01:23:45.200 He gets out in March.

01:23:46.780 I'm going to call him now.

01:23:47.800 It's January until ICE.

01:23:49.860 You know, Hector gets out March 14th.

01:23:52.220 That's great.

01:23:53.680 OK, but we questioned on this program yesterday, how exactly is Keith Ellison going to do this?

01:24:00.080 Because this is really more of a county by county issue.

01:24:04.280 And he, as the attorney general, had just issued an opinion not long ago saying it would be a Fourth Amendment violation to hold people even like one day longer.

01:24:13.000 So, like, if ICE came on March 15th, they couldn't hold him.

01:24:16.440 So it was just, you know, my basic question was, has the Minneapolis mayor weighed in on this?

01:24:23.660 Did we hear directly from Keith Ellison on this?

01:24:26.600 And yesterday before our show, we actually called the sheriff for Hennepin County, which is where Minneapolis was, is to say, did you agree to that?

01:24:35.360 Like, are you going to do that?

01:24:36.860 And here's the long and the short of it.

01:24:39.540 We got a long gobbledygook answer from the sheriff, which amounts to no, I did not agree to that.

01:24:46.760 We now hear reporting from Fox News correspondent Matt Finn, who says that Ellison has given Fox a statement saying he made no deal with Tom Homan and also wrote that he cannot tell jails to cooperate with ICE, but that jails historically can do their own thing.

01:25:03.960 Then he writes, the sheriff, the sheriff office in Hennepin County tells us at Fox, it is not in the process of making any changes, which dovetails with what he told us, which is gobbledygook, gobbledygook.

01:25:15.040 No, there's no deal.

01:25:17.200 So as far as I can tell, we don't have an explicit agreement from anybody to actually change things at the county jail.

01:25:26.340 Now, this sheriff does say this would have to come from the state, but again, Ellison is saying he did not cut a deal, so it's not coming from the state attorney general.

01:25:37.180 So is it up to Governor Walz?

01:25:39.620 Because Governor Walz today is issuing proclamations, say, buy local because ICE is hurting our economy, and definitely not saying make the local and county jails cooperate with ICE.

01:25:50.840 Long way of saying, Michael Knowles, I have no idea what if any deal has been struck between our federal government and the local governments in Minneapolis, and I have zero reason to believe they're going to change.

01:26:03.360 But it does seem we're changing in not going after anybody other than illegals who have also done something extra criminal. 0.50

01:26:12.420 Well, it's difficult even to interpret what that means from our side or from the federal government side or the side of the law because, you know, Tim Walz claims a scalp because Greg Bovino was reassigned.

01:26:24.740 Okay, well, it's one thing to move the commander at large of Border Patrol, but then if you're just going to sub in the guy who is even more the face of the mass deportations, Tom Homan, that doesn't seem like a huge win necessarily for the left.

01:26:37.560 On top of that, there was this strange sequence of events. On Sunday, Tim Walz goes out. He compares the face-tattooed Venezuelan rapists to Anne Frank and compares ICE to the Nazis, and he says someday they're going to write a book about what happened here.

01:26:53.780 And he said, you know, this is awful. He gets a call from Trump on Monday. By Tuesday, he says, we are going to cooperate with the Nazis.

01:27:01.640 He says, Tim Walz basically comes out. He says, I'm a Nazi collaborator now, and we're going to work together, and it's going to be great. 0.75

01:27:07.340 They're not so bad after all.

01:27:07.980 Yes, they're not so bad. So that was hugely embarrassing for Tim Walz, and we have to wonder what happened on that phone call with Trump.

01:27:15.080 Were there threats made regarding the Insurrection Act? Were there threats made regarding-

01:27:19.640 Fraud?

01:27:19.980 Fraud. Obviously, Tim Walz seems to be neck deep in fraud, allegedly, reportedly, allegedly, but there's a lot of evidence for that.

01:27:25.820 So, you know, clearly, it was enough to scare Tim Walz straight. Whether that made it down to Ellison or the county sheriffs remains to be seen.

01:27:33.020 So the question then becomes, what has changed? And I suspect right now, what I want is for these jails to hand over the illegals and make this a little bit easier. 0.87

01:27:42.240 And it could kind of be a win-win. But if that is not the case-

01:27:46.540 But that's totally contrary to what a sanctuary city does.

01:27:50.340 Like, that's really at the heart of what they will not do.

01:27:54.540 So that's why it jumped out at me when Homan said that they had agreed yesterday.

01:27:56.920 Because if they actually did agree to do that, then they're agreeing not to be a sanctuary city anymore.

01:28:01.500 That is very big news, which is why my first reaction was, what is Jacob Fry saying?

01:28:06.580 What is the sheriff saying?

01:28:08.240 Like, he's mentioning Ellison. I didn't hear Ellison say it.

01:28:11.480 Now it sounds like Ellison's denying it.

01:28:13.560 And the locals, let me play what Jacob Fry sounds like.

01:28:16.140 Not like somebody who's giving up sanctuary city status.

01:28:19.040 Listen, this is yesterday.

01:28:20.840 We are on the front lines of a very important battle.

01:28:25.320 And it's important that we aren't silenced, that we aren't put down.

01:28:30.080 This is not a time to bend our heads in despair or out of fear that we may be next.

01:28:36.120 And so we've been very clear.

01:28:38.540 The Operation Metro Surge needs to end.

01:28:42.260 This kind of conduct and siege needs to stop, not just in Minneapolis.

01:28:47.240 It needs to stop nationwide.

01:28:50.820 On behalf of the next city and the city after that, that may experience this kind of invasion, thank you.

01:28:57.180 We got to hold rock solid.

01:28:59.140 We cannot back down.

01:29:00.880 Our cities, our mayors are what will hold this democracy together.

01:29:07.280 Cannot back down.

01:29:08.860 We're on the front lines of a very important battle.

01:29:11.240 The long and the short of it, Michael, is I don't know where we are on Minneapolis.

01:29:17.420 Both sides seem to be jockeying for position to the public.

01:29:21.160 But behind closed doors, it seems to me we haven't gotten anything, but we're ready to give something.

01:29:28.340 Yes, you know, the one thing I know about Minneapolis is that we are in Minneapolis, and it's all about Minneapolis.

01:29:34.240 I love that Jacob Frey said, these need to stop in Minneapolis and nationwide.

01:29:38.400 That's a helpful reminder that these ICE raids are going on nationwide.

01:29:42.180 How come they're only a really big problem in Minneapolis?

01:29:45.160 Why is it only Minneapolis?

01:29:46.920 Why is it always Minneapolis?

01:29:48.800 Why has this been true since George Floyd and since even before then?

01:29:52.760 Obviously, it's a political problem.

01:29:56.260 The problem is that you have leaders here who are contravening federal law, who are committing crimes, who are protecting criminals.

01:30:03.460 And so, you know, it's a game of chicken with the federal government.

01:30:06.560 What has really changed so far?

01:30:08.480 Nothing is all that we know.

01:30:11.360 What probably could happen, maybe best case scenario, is both sides make their points and then nothing changes.

01:30:17.320 And Tom Homan comes in and he keeps conducting the same kinds of raids.

01:30:20.180 But it is crucial here that the administration does not let up one bit.

01:30:25.320 It is crucial that the administration does not pull one officer, one agent off of the case, does not leave one extra illegal in the city.

01:30:33.660 Because this is a game of chicken that could have nationwide implications.

01:30:38.000 The summer of love during the year of our Floyd began in Minneapolis.

01:30:42.440 And because the federal government didn't quash it, it spread.

01:30:45.820 It infected the rest of the country.

01:30:47.420 So we can't just repeat what happened there.

01:30:49.800 Hopefully we have to learn these lessons.

01:30:52.060 And when you look at the public opinion polls, they're kind of split.

01:30:56.120 On the one hand, it's true most voters think that ICE should chill out in Minneapolis.

01:30:59.920 But then when it comes to mass deportations generally, voters are overwhelmingly majority in support of that.

01:31:06.400 And so what that means is they like it in principle.

01:31:09.440 They don't like the nasty pictures.

01:31:11.680 This means that we need to win the war of the pictures.

01:31:14.800 This means, and Tom Homan is pretty good at this.

01:31:16.560 He's very good at messaging.

01:31:17.380 We need to make clear that the rapists and the murderers and all the rest of them, you know, child abusers, we see their faces.

01:31:26.220 We see their face tattoos.

01:31:27.660 That becomes the image of Minneapolis.

01:31:29.760 In addition to that, people who have not committed additional crimes also need to be deported.

01:31:34.380 But I hope it's just a PR shift.

01:31:37.740 You know, you don't need to say that you're deporting abuela in order to deport abuela.

01:31:42.780 If you're going to have mass deportations, some abuelas are getting deported. 1.00

01:31:46.400 I'm sorry.

01:31:46.820 It's just how it works.

01:31:47.660 It's federal law.

01:31:48.720 Both parties agreed with this until like five minutes ago.

01:31:50.920 You have to do that.

01:31:51.720 But at least on the messaging, we need to show the problem where it is most urgent, where it's most grievous, where you have 80% support.

01:32:00.120 I hope that's what Homan's doing. 1.00

01:32:01.860 But if the White House is using this as an opportunity to back off, I think it is a huge, potentially existential mistake.

01:32:11.100 Totally agree with you.

01:32:11.980 And on that front, I want to tell the audience that we've been working on this for a while now, and we've put together a very powerful, it's like a five-minute montage of victims of these illegals, you know, from Lakin Riley to Kate Steinle to Jocelyn Nangare and names that you haven't heard.

01:32:30.960 So many, by the way, have been killed in DWIs.

01:32:33.700 Like these illegals, they're not all murderers, but a lot are serious boozebags who get behind the wheel of cars and have absolutely no compunction about driving the wrong way on a one-way street or down a major highway, killing our most promising young people. 1.00

01:32:49.940 It's absolutely horrifying.

01:32:51.700 Please do yourself a favor and watch this.

01:32:53.220 We're going to post it a little later today on our YouTube feed.

01:32:55.620 It's five minutes long.

01:32:56.460 I feel like we owe it to them.

01:32:58.240 Michael, it's a pleasure to see you.

01:32:59.740 Thank you so much.

01:33:00.620 We appreciate it.

01:33:00.960 Great to be with you always, Megan.

01:33:01.960 Thanks for having me.

01:33:03.700 Okay, we're going to bring on Howard Bloom in a minute because we've got new details in the Brian Kohlberger case.

01:33:10.200 He's trying to get transferred out of his prison, but more importantly, Howard Bloom now thinks Brian Kohlberger may have had an accomplice.

01:33:19.280 That's next.

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01:34:22.860 New unsealed court filings reveal more horrifying details about the final moments of the four University of Idaho students murdered by Brian Kohlberger.

01:34:36.380 The autopsy findings show the victims were stabbed at least 150 times collectively.

01:34:42.580 Three attacked as they slept, one fighting desperately for her life in her final moments.

01:34:47.880 That was Zanna Kurnodal.

01:34:48.940 Our friend, the great journalist Howard Bloom, has been covering this case from the beginning.

01:34:53.400 He literally wrote the book on it.

01:34:55.720 It was a bestseller called When the Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders, and has covered this case so well for so long.

01:35:03.320 And now he's raising an unsettling theory, having seen all the latest evidence that Brian Kohlberger may not have acted alone.

01:35:13.140 He joins me now to explain.

01:35:15.180 Welcome back, Howard.

01:35:16.220 Great to have you.

01:35:16.900 So that's that's quite a headline.

01:35:19.800 Why are you saying that?

01:35:21.800 Well, you know, I am not a conspiracy theorist.

01:35:25.740 I believe the world happens more by accidents than by planning.

01:35:30.620 And I there was just a lot about this case I didn't quite understand.

01:35:34.720 It was settled very quickly over a course of a weekend.

01:35:38.840 The case was sort of wrapped up after two and a half years of combative vitriolic wrangling between the prosecution and the defense.

01:35:46.860 And suddenly things were wrapped up.

01:35:48.420 And when the case ended, I thought, well, they've got the right man.

01:35:51.700 And I still believe Kohlberger is guilty.

01:35:54.160 But I think there's a larger story to tell when you look at the evidence that's suddenly being released.

01:36:00.100 We're getting troves and troves of new evidence.

01:36:02.520 And as you pointed out, just let's start with the crime scene photographs.

01:36:06.900 The scenario for the murders, according to the police, is that the murders occurred between 4.07 a.m. and 4.20, 13 minutes.

01:36:17.020 I think that scenario is a little overly generous.

01:36:20.260 I would suggest that the murders occurred in just nine minutes because Kohlberger had to then leave the house, go up the hill, take off his bloody suit.

01:36:30.340 So between 9 and 13 minutes, the murders occurred.

01:36:33.300 But as you said, 150 stab wounds.

01:36:36.260 This was a very brutal, vicious attack.

01:36:40.180 Could one man have gone through two floors of the house and with just nine minutes or 13 minutes, even, as the police say, committed all these murders?

01:36:49.560 And then the prosecutor has come out and said that perhaps there was another weapon involved.

01:36:55.960 He says, I cannot rule out, and this is a direct quote from him, that another weapon was involved.

01:37:01.840 And he also talks about one of the victims being gagged.

01:37:05.560 Her nose was broken.

01:37:07.060 I don't think one person could do this.

01:37:09.120 So that's where I started looking into it.

01:37:12.300 Just for the listening audience, we were showing on the board while Howard was speaking there pictures that the Daily Mail downloaded for the very brief time that they were posted online by law enforcement handling this case in Idaho.

01:37:24.280 The Daily Mail, to its credit, chose not to publish the most gruesome ones, but they published one showing blood all over the murder scenes.

01:37:32.340 And you can see the bloody walls and the bloody beds and the bloody floors and shoes and so on.

01:37:36.760 And it is horrifying because you know exactly what happened there.

01:37:40.580 And it is evidence of the massive, massive carnage and the struggle that ensued in these rooms, which is part of Howard's theory that how in nine minutes did one man produce all this?

01:37:51.600 Keep going, Howard.

01:37:52.100 And again, let's emphasize it's a hypothesis.

01:37:55.760 It's something I think worth exploring.

01:37:58.220 I'm not saying for sure that Kohlberger had an accomplice, but enough questions have been raised for me to want to dig deeper into this.

01:38:06.820 Then you can look.

01:38:07.960 The one thing that we've always wondered about is the motive.

01:38:13.120 There's never been a motive in this case.

01:38:15.920 Why did Kohlberger do it?

01:38:17.560 On the day he was sentenced, the prosecutor stood before the courtroom and he said,

01:38:22.240 I cannot say that Kohlberger ever even knew these victims.

01:38:26.740 He did not follow them on social media.

01:38:29.020 And the only evidence that we have is his knife sheath in the house with touch DNA on it.

01:38:37.820 So when we have to look for a motive, the prosecution was going to say, well, he picked this house randomly.

01:38:44.760 It was a random killing spree.

01:38:46.280 Now, everything we've known about Kohlberger that we've been following for over these two and a half, three years is that nothing was done randomly.

01:38:54.740 He was a criminal justice student.

01:38:57.080 He had written about crime scenes.

01:38:59.560 He had written about how to get rid of blood evidence, how to clean up crime scenes.

01:39:05.460 And there's no trail of blood through the house.

01:39:07.880 There's no blood in his apartment.

01:39:09.860 There's no blood in his car.

01:39:11.320 But now we're supposed to believe that he just picked one house by random.

01:39:15.840 And why would he have picked this house by random?

01:39:18.340 There were five cars parked in front.

01:39:21.500 Plus, at 4 a.m., there was a door dash delivery, which Kohlberger would have seen.

01:39:26.260 So he would have known that the five cars, at least five people, and that perhaps someone was up because of this door dash.

01:39:33.340 So I don't think this was a random event.

01:39:37.520 But no, I mean, I feel like they didn't have evidence of why this house was chosen.

01:39:45.180 But there's no question he'd been watching these girls and that he'd been watching the house.

01:39:50.580 They saw his car had been there prior to the night of the murders.

01:39:53.580 He'd been casing it.

01:39:55.280 And obviously, he knew that at least, you know, three young, five young, beautiful women lived there.

01:40:00.940 All right, stand by.

01:40:01.500 We have to take a quick break.

01:40:02.760 We're going to come back on the opposite side of this.

01:40:05.440 So don't go away.

01:40:05.960 Howard's going to finish his theory on this, which is provocative and interesting.

01:40:09.680 And we'll get to the prison transfer as well.

01:40:12.800 You know Pure Talk's favorite holiday?

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01:41:25.140 America, the best to ever do it.

01:41:27.500 Hey everyone, it's me.

01:41:57.500 Hey Megan Kelly, I've got some exciting news.

01:42:00.540 I now have my very own channel on Sirius XM.

01:42:03.640 It's called the Megan Kelly Channel, and it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered, with no agenda, and no apologies.

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01:42:27.500 We are back now with journalist Howard Bloom talking about Brian Kohlberger and why Howard believes now, having seen the crime scene photos and done some other investigation, that Brian Kohlberger may have had an accomplice.

01:42:44.240 And more than that, that Brian Kohlberger may have been the accomplice to someone else.

01:42:52.940 Now, Howard, one of the most interesting things that you raise in your piece, positing this possibility, is you reckon back to, hearken back to, the moment Kohlberger was taken into custody.

01:43:07.880 And one of the few public statements that he made on the record about this case, and the very first question he asked the investigators when he was arrested.

01:43:18.660 Yes. On the night of Kohlberger's arrest in his parents' house in Pennsylvania, he's put up in zip ties.

01:43:26.860 His parents and one of his sisters are put in zip ties by the police.

01:43:30.480 He's taken out to a state trooper's car.

01:43:33.280 He's sitting, put in the back seat.

01:43:35.600 And the first thing he says to the state trooper is, was anyone else arrested?

01:43:41.020 And at the time, no one really paid too much attention to this.

01:43:45.120 We thought he was being the dutiful son, concerned about his parents or his sister.

01:43:50.000 But now, in retrospect, when you look at all the other aspects of the case, when you look at what occurred that night, whether one man could have done it, this question has a more ominous echo.

01:44:02.520 Was anyone else arrested?

01:44:03.980 Yes.

01:44:04.200 It raises the possibility that someone else is out there right now.

01:44:08.180 It really is an odd question when you think about it.

01:44:11.960 You know, if Kohlberger, we know he committed the crime, but let's assume if he had done it totally by himself with no accomplice, why would that be the first question you asked investigators?

01:44:24.780 It certainly is a troubling one.

01:44:27.260 And there's more evidence that makes this question even eerier.

01:44:31.140 On the knife sheath, which we know has Kohlberger's DNA on it, a little bit of touch DNA on the button snap, that was a cornerstone of the state's case against him.

01:44:43.660 But there now is, according to the documents that have been released, there is unknown Y-DNA on it, a speck of that.

01:44:52.100 Y-DNA is male DNA. 0.81

01:44:54.260 They say in the documents that they ran it against Kohlberger.

01:44:57.840 They ran it against other males who had been in the house and been suspects.

01:45:02.500 And they could not identify it.

01:45:04.720 Wait, on the knife sheath?

01:45:05.760 Yes, on the knife sheath, this bit of DNA.

01:45:09.020 What they didn't do is compare this little speck.

01:45:11.900 Maybe it's too small.

01:45:13.160 I don't know why they didn't do this.

01:45:14.980 But they didn't compare it to the blood samples they had found previously, which they never investigated, on the handrail and on a glove outside.

01:45:23.940 Sometimes you don't ask questions because you don't want to know the answers.

01:45:27.520 When I was, you know, talking to people in law enforcement about this theory, many people didn't want to talk.

01:45:35.400 But one person who's very knowledgeable about the case wound up telling me, said, look, this case is all wrapped up.

01:45:42.580 We wanted it to go away.

01:45:44.120 And now it's going away.

01:45:45.540 And we're not going to poke into it anymore.

01:45:47.720 But there's a lot of things that we don't know and we'll never know.

01:45:51.740 The question is, do the Idaho state taxpayers, do the public, do the families want to leave those questions hanging out there?

01:46:00.740 Right.

01:46:01.080 I mean, if it's true, there's another vicious serial killer roaming free.

01:46:06.120 So it seems worth a question or two.

01:46:08.000 So we have now come to understand, per People magazine, that the defense had hired a forensic criminologist named Dr. Brent Tarvey, who was going to testify for the defense if this case had gone to trial.

01:46:24.080 And this guy, now, obviously, he's hired by the defense to try to get Brian Kohlberger off the hook.

01:46:28.500 So we take it with a serious grain of salt.

01:46:31.020 But he is raising, in this draft testimony that people got its hands on, some similar questions.

01:46:37.240 And here are a few of them, as outlined by the magazine.

01:46:41.580 They say that he argued that one killer could not have contained, for example, both Ethan Chapin and his girlfriend, Zanna Cronodal, or rendered the two different types of lethal force used on Kaylee Gonsalves.

01:46:54.900 Because we know the killer killed Kaylee and Madison first, we believe, on the third floor.

01:46:59.160 And Kaylee fought for her life.

01:47:00.640 And Kaylee had a broken nose and many injuries about the face, which we were told were defensive wounds, as she definitely tried to fight him.

01:47:09.380 And it was Kaylee's injuries that led the authorities at the presser after the plea to say, we believed he used a weapon other than a knife.

01:47:21.040 And people were like, what?

01:47:23.060 It's like, there's two weapons?

01:47:24.100 I was the first we heard.

01:47:24.960 And then he kind of hedged a little, saying, well, can't say for sure.

01:47:28.100 Maybe, you know, there was speculation, was it the butt of the knife?

01:47:30.540 But it seemed to be some sort of blunt, forced object to beat Kaylee.

01:47:35.320 Forgive me.

01:47:35.660 These are disturbing details, Howard.

01:47:38.340 I mean, these are questions that are raised and that they didn't follow up on.

01:47:42.360 And I find that, you know, from the moment they tore down the murder house, they wanted this case just to disappear.

01:47:50.000 So many people involved in the case have just wanted to move on.

01:47:53.500 The original police chief couldn't wait to quit his job and move on.

01:47:56.840 The original judge couldn't wait to retire.

01:48:00.380 They tear down, again, the murder house, as I said.

01:48:04.400 And then they're able, just over a course of a weekend, a single weekend, after three years nearly of legal wrangling, to just settle things without demanding an allocution, without trying to say we want the answers.

01:48:17.260 They say, well, Kohlberger would never tell us the truth.

01:48:21.020 Well, either he will tell you where the murder weapon is, or he won't.

01:48:24.320 It's pretty cut and dry to ask that question and get a clear answer.

01:48:29.120 He'll be able to tell you how he knew the young women involved, or he didn't.

01:48:35.940 Why they did this, I don't understand.

01:48:38.440 They had cards to play, and they refused to play them.

01:48:41.920 I want to go back to this guy, Dr. Brent Tarvey, because he's raising other good questions along the lines of yours.

01:48:47.260 I mentioned, so we're looking at the injuries on Kaylee, who we now know because they've released the number of stab wounds each victim received.

01:48:56.060 Kaylee received 38.

01:48:58.200 Zanna, poor Zanna, she was the one who was awake, received more than 67 stab wounds. 0.65

01:49:04.480 Madison Mogan, 28.

01:49:06.840 And Ethan Chapin, 17.

01:49:09.920 And he was asking questions about how could Ethan have been killed with Zanna?

01:49:16.760 Like, he said, it is not reasonable to think that Ethan would have remained in his bed after waking up or being awake while Zanna was being attacked in front of him.

01:49:25.260 This evidence and context begin to suggest the existence of a second attacker.

01:49:29.940 Ethan and Zanna appear to have been attacked at the same time.

01:49:32.420 So it's inconsistent with the state's theory that these crimes were committed solely by one individual.

01:49:37.400 But, Howard, isn't it possible that Brian Kohlberger could have attacked Ethan first, killed him, and then killed Zanna?

01:49:47.840 Because you would think he would take out the man before, you know, going after the woman.

01:49:53.260 Well, it's possible, but the way it's been reconstructed now and the way I understand the events is that Zanna was literally going up the stairs because she heard the commotion in the third floor bedroom.

01:50:07.360 And then she was going down and Kohlberger chased her and then immobilized her.

01:50:14.260 Then he dealt with Ethan and then she was killed.

01:50:17.060 That's the way it's been explained to me.

01:50:19.800 But also, you know, Ethan is six foot four.

01:50:22.100 He was a big guy.

01:50:23.380 He was a basketball star in high school, an athlete.

01:50:29.440 It's sort of hard to believe.

01:50:31.860 Also, the house was dark.

01:50:33.740 There are two different floors.

01:50:34.820 There's a long staircase.

01:50:36.120 It takes time to move around.

01:50:38.320 How all this could happen by one person, I just don't see it.

01:50:44.300 Could have been wearing a headlamp.

01:50:45.760 I don't know.

01:50:46.140 He wasn't seen.

01:50:47.140 The witness who saw him, the roommate, Dylan, who saw him, did not say he had a headlamp on, however.

01:50:51.480 No, she said she had some device, like maybe a vacuum cleaner, she said at one point.

01:50:56.380 But let's go back to these two surviving witnesses.

01:51:00.260 You know, they're victims, too.

01:51:01.840 They went, this is horrible for them.

01:51:03.840 And yet, at the same time, there's a lot we don't know, a lot we don't understand that raises troubling questions.

01:51:09.500 And it's exacerbated by the fact that when we read the interviews, they keep on changing their story.

01:51:14.840 There's no coherent, consistent storyline through all their interviews with the authorities.

01:51:20.720 Well, one of the questions is, where are the bloody footprints?

01:51:26.440 I guess there were not a ton of bloody footprints all over these pictures or the murder scene, Howard.

01:51:31.840 And the question is, who cleaned them up?

01:51:35.780 Or like, let's say Brian Kohlberger was wearing head-to-toe covering, including booties.

01:51:41.800 Well, those booties would have made footprints. 0.99

01:51:43.320 They wouldn't have had treads on them, but they would have made bloody footprints.

01:51:47.240 And if he took off the booties immediately after the murders, he would have had to step through blood.

01:51:53.540 There was so much blood.

01:51:54.580 So either way, there should be bloody footprints.

01:51:56.860 And this is, again, one of the things this Brent Tarvey was pointing out.

01:52:00.440 There's an absence of bloody footwear patterns at the scene in general.

01:52:05.940 It's a very important question.

01:52:08.760 You know, there's this eight-hour gap between the Kohlberger or the assassin being spotted by Dylan Mortensen.

01:52:18.240 And then they're calling the police.

01:52:20.560 The house, during that period, looks very much as if it were cleaned up.

01:52:25.620 The blood, the footprints, it's not there.

01:52:28.240 If you look at the picture of the knife sheath on the bed, it looks like it's been arranged.

01:52:32.380 Did the police do that?

01:52:33.680 Or was it done by someone else?

01:52:35.360 These are questions that I think should be answered.

01:52:38.760 And I think the defense could have raised this issue of an accomplice.

01:52:45.260 But again, they settled.

01:52:47.300 Why did Kohlberger settle so quickly?

01:52:49.500 What was he trying to protect?

01:52:51.740 Did he have enough of a relationship with someone that he would want to protect them?

01:52:56.840 Well, they'd know if he had a relationship with somebody.

01:52:59.660 That would be all over his phone.

01:53:02.040 There'd be eyewitnesses to that.

01:53:03.560 We'd know if he were dating somebody or communicating with somebody.

01:53:06.520 Well, we do know he was sort of dating with someone.

01:53:10.320 He did have a...

01:53:11.280 I spoke with her.

01:53:12.840 Someone involved in the...

01:53:14.440 A foreign student involved in the program at WSU, in the criminal justice program.

01:53:20.220 And, you know, it was known in certain circles.

01:53:23.300 They would say, oh, she has a Kohlberger.

01:53:26.120 That's how they sort of made fun of her at the time, or mocked her.

01:53:30.120 That was her boyfriend.

01:53:31.840 And there's more we're learning about Kohlberger.

01:53:35.000 The question is, he cleaned his phone.

01:53:38.340 I think one theory would be that he wants to have the last laugh.

01:53:43.460 Why did he settle?

01:53:44.580 He knew he was doomed.

01:53:45.820 But this is this one secret he can hold on to that will give him strength to survive.

01:53:50.560 Because he knows something that we don't know, and why the prosecution did not press to get

01:53:56.800 these issues resolved, to get answers, is something that I still find troubling.

01:54:01.980 It is.

01:54:03.060 I mean, when you think about it, it's the thing that troubled everybody from the beginning.

01:54:06.640 And we didn't know that there were 150 total stab wounds in the beginning.

01:54:10.160 We just knew that four people were killed in a very short time.

01:54:13.040 But it's down to about nine minutes, 150 stab wounds.

01:54:18.720 And it's not gunshot.

01:54:19.940 It's stabbing somebody, stabbing for somebodies over the course of nine minutes from different

01:54:26.320 room to different room to struggles, at least two fought for their lives that would have gone on.

01:54:32.820 And again, the absence of some bloody evidence that we would have expected.

01:54:38.120 Yeah, I mean, these really are very good questions.

01:54:40.760 And then his question, was anyone else arrested?

01:54:43.680 But we're never going to know, right?

01:54:45.560 Unless he gives an interview to that criminologist, Dr. Catherine Rumler, from his undergrad program,

01:54:53.180 and fesses everything up.

01:54:55.160 Or he talks to his sister, decides to write a book, which is perhaps happening, or maybe

01:55:01.080 something will come out.

01:55:02.280 I don't think conspiracies can be buried forever.

01:55:06.080 But we're still looking into other old conspiracies that have lingered for generations.

01:55:11.280 So I'm going to poke around a bit more into it.

01:55:14.700 I'm getting some leads to follow.

01:55:16.600 Maybe they're dead ends.

01:55:17.900 But I think it's important to raise these hypotheses.

01:55:21.800 I mean, the search for truth is the search for greater theories.

01:55:24.920 And I'm looking at new theories.

01:55:27.620 Very important.

01:55:28.220 Correction, Catherine Ramsland.

01:55:30.060 And Catherine Rumler is the general counsel, or what, she's high up at Goldman Sachs now,

01:55:35.060 but she used to be a Jeffrey Epstein advisor, which she doesn't want us to talk about now.

01:55:38.500 But you were, madam.

01:55:39.400 You're all over the documents.

01:55:40.900 And I saw you.

01:55:42.160 I heard you myself on audio tapes advising him.

01:55:45.260 So deal with that.

01:55:46.760 Okay.

01:55:47.200 Now there's a report out that Brian Kohlberger may be getting transferred.

01:55:54.320 The prison's denying it.

01:55:55.860 But there are some sources saying, trust us, it's true, from this Idaho prison where he's

01:56:01.640 been sentenced because he's been so utterly difficult, Howard.

01:56:05.800 He complains regularly about the food, about his treatment from the other prisoners.

01:56:10.780 They try to keep him up all night.

01:56:12.320 They threaten him with sexual assault.

01:56:14.120 I mean, I think it's called being a prisoner.

01:56:15.780 And, but he's so annoying to the prison staff that they reportedly want to get rid of him

01:56:21.960 and ship him off to anybody who will take him.

01:56:25.900 Again, the prison on the record is denying that that's happening.

01:56:28.960 But Fox News had, it was either, it was, no, it was Daily Mail, an interview with a source

01:56:36.960 who went on the record saying, it's true, trust me, I'd bet millions of dollars on it.

01:56:41.020 Or was it Fox?

01:56:41.700 Yeah.

01:56:41.860 It was Fox, a guy named McDonough, who says he has solid information from a prison insider

01:56:49.100 and that the move could take place in about a month.

01:56:51.640 I'd put $2 million on it, he told Fox News Digital.

01:56:55.740 So what do you make of that report?

01:56:58.080 Do you believe it?

01:56:58.900 I certainly don't know anything about the credibility of that specific report.

01:57:04.760 I do know a bit about Kohlberger's personality and character.

01:57:08.900 All his time at Washington State University was time of constant complaining.

01:57:13.760 That's all he did.

01:57:15.180 When I spoke with the people who were close to the girlfriend that he, or the friend,

01:57:20.600 she wasn't a romantic girlfriend.

01:57:22.260 She was a friend who maybe wanted to have a romance with him, but he was friendly with.

01:57:26.820 It was one of constant complaining, constant bickering.

01:57:29.540 That is part of his personality.

01:57:31.760 Even his friends in Pennsylvania talked about that.

01:57:35.200 So that would seem to fit his character.

01:57:37.260 But again, I don't know anything at all about this specific being transferred.

01:57:42.280 I don't know anything about that.

01:57:44.500 Okay.

01:57:45.080 Well, this guy McDonough is a retired homicide detective who is a source for the Daily Mail

01:57:48.820 on this, and he's saying he's got it.

01:57:50.400 So we'll see if he gets transferred from this prison to another.

01:57:54.800 It's one of those things, Howard, like be careful what you wish for, because a prison

01:57:59.380 that says, we'll take him, we don't mind all that complaining, is probably not going to

01:58:03.620 be a great one.

01:58:04.960 There's probably a reason they don't care if you complain a lot.

01:58:09.020 So he better be careful.

01:58:10.620 I, for one, hope he's suffering.

01:58:12.340 It might be interesting if he does get transferred, because you've raised the question, will we

01:58:17.220 ever know the answers?

01:58:18.600 Well, I think at some point down the road, he's going to be very unhappy, very bored.

01:58:24.940 He's going to see his chance to become the criminologist he always wanted to become.

01:58:29.980 And he's going to talk to someone.

01:58:31.980 Who will it be?

01:58:33.440 I don't know.

01:58:34.180 It will be you, me, Catherine.

01:58:35.020 And maybe he'll use it.

01:58:36.840 Maybe he'll pull a Ghislaine Maxwell and use his information about where the murder weapon

01:58:41.780 is and a possible accomplice to get himself transferred to a more humane facility.

01:58:47.880 I don't know whether anybody would actually make that deal.

01:58:49.620 But certainly, if there's an accomplice, we'd like to know.

01:58:52.840 I think in Idaho, they're willing to make any deals.

01:58:55.300 I'm shocked about how many deals they've made with him.

01:58:58.700 Good point.

01:58:59.680 Well, Howard, you've been on it from the beginning, a true pursuer of truth.

01:59:02.860 And we appreciate that.

01:59:04.160 We love talking to you.

01:59:04.740 Thanks for coming on.

01:59:05.520 Always like talking to you, too, Megan.

01:59:07.320 Take care.

01:59:07.720 All right, everybody, that'll wrap it up for us today.

01:59:10.900 What a show. 0.68

01:59:12.120 All this stuff is just crazy.

01:59:13.560 It's a crazy time to be in news.

01:59:16.140 We hope you have a great weekend.

01:59:17.720 We're going to see you on Monday.

01:59:21.980 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:59:23.840 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - January 30, 2026

Don Lemon ARRESTED Under Klan and FACE Acts, with Michael Knowles, Mike Davis, Bill Shipley, and Howard Blum ｜ Ep. 1242

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