The Megyn Kelly Show - Don Lemon's Misogyny, Trans Activists Attack NYT, and Murdaugh Latest, with Jim Geraghty, Michael Brendan Dougherty, and Peter Tragos ｜ Ep. 495

00:00:00.000 Your business doesn't move in a straight line.

00:00:02.800 Some days bring growth, others bring challenges.

00:00:05.940 But what if you or a partner needs to step away?

00:00:08.820 When the unexpected happens, count on Canada Life's flexible life and health insurance

00:00:13.680 to help your business keep working, even when you can't.

00:00:17.020 Don't let life's challenges stand in the way of your success.

00:00:20.460 Protect what you've built today.

00:00:22.500 Visit canadalife.com slash business protection to learn more.

00:00:26.280 Canada Life. Insurance. Investments. Advice.

00:00:31.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.420 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:44.360 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live again on day two from Las Vegas, Nevada.

00:00:49.520 President Biden is undergoing a physical as questions swirl about candidate age and fitness for office.

00:00:56.840 We expect to get the results of the president's exam later today.

00:00:59.660 It could come at any point.

00:01:00.720 If it comes during the show, we will bring it to you.

00:01:02.660 Meantime, Don Lemon has stepped in it yet again.

00:01:06.600 This time, going after Republican presidential candidate Nikki Haley over her age. 0.99

00:01:12.580 She's 51.

00:01:13.260 You cannot make this up.

00:01:15.220 We've got a jam-packed show for you today.

00:01:17.540 It is National Review Day here on The MK Show.

00:01:20.880 Joining me now are senior political correspondent Jim Garrity, the co-host of the Three Martini Lunch podcast,

00:01:26.900 and Michael Brendan Doherty, a senior writer at National Review.

00:01:30.440 You can find their work and much, much more by becoming an NR Plus subscriber.

00:01:34.060 Highly recommend it.

00:01:34.880 I do it.

00:01:35.340 You get extra content and you don't have to deal with the ads.

00:01:38.420 Jim, Michael, great to have you back.

00:01:39.620 How are you doing?

00:01:40.440 Great to be here.

00:01:41.360 Doing great.

00:01:42.460 All right.

00:01:42.960 We've got to start with Don Lemon.

00:01:44.420 I'm sorry, but we do.

00:01:46.620 So he has been stepping in it time and time again over at his new fledgling, failing CNN

00:01:53.800 morning show.

00:01:54.460 And the latest comment that he has made, I would submit to you, is just the latest in

00:01:59.700 a series of truly sexist comments by this guy.

00:02:03.440 I don't know how much longer CNN can allow this to go on, but here was him, here was Don

00:02:09.180 Lemon reacting to Nikki Haley, suggesting that if you're over 75 and you want to be in

00:02:15.220 political office, you might need to do a competency test.

00:02:18.480 And here was Don Lemon reacting to that on CNN.

00:02:21.560 This whole talk about age makes me uncomfortable.

00:02:25.640 I think that, I think it's the wrong road to go down.

00:02:28.320 She says people, you know, politicians or something are not in their prime.

00:02:31.380 Nikki Haley is in her prime.

00:02:32.680 Sorry.

00:02:33.280 When a woman is considered to be in her prime in her 20s and 30s and maybe 40s.

00:02:37.380 What are you talking about?

00:02:38.360 That's not according to me.

00:02:39.620 Prime for what?

00:02:40.880 It depends.

00:02:41.760 I mean, it's just like prime.

00:02:42.700 If you look it up, it'll, if you look, if you Google, when is a woman in her prime, 0.98

00:02:45.960 it'll say 20s, 30s, and 40s.

00:02:48.300 I don't necessarily.

00:02:48.740 I'm not saying I agree with that.

00:02:51.380 So I think she has to be careful about saying that, you know, politicians aren't in their

00:02:55.500 prime.

00:02:55.660 I think they need to qualify.

00:02:56.680 Are you talking about prime for like child caring?

00:02:59.200 Or are you talking about prime for being president?

00:03:01.880 Don't shoot the message.

00:03:02.800 I'm just saying what the facts are.

00:03:06.500 Google it.

00:03:07.060 Everybody at home.

00:03:07.900 When is a woman in her prime? 1.00

00:03:09.480 It says 20s, 30s, and 40s.

00:03:10.940 And I'm just saying Nikki Haley should be careful about saying that politicians are not in their 0.99

00:03:11.180 prime and they need to be in their prime when they serve because she wouldn't be in 0.94

00:03:14.440 her prime according to Google or whatever it is.

00:03:18.740 OK, so if you don't shoot the messenger, if you Google it, Google tells you a woman is 0.98

00:03:26.540 past her prime when she's after 20, 30, maybe 40.

00:03:29.640 He says if you Google CNN, it comes up as the most trusted news source.

00:03:33.900 So we can't always rely on Google, Don.

00:03:36.560 And I have to tell you, I'm so irritated by this guy and honestly, his misogyny.

00:03:41.620 And I don't use that word about a lot of people, but there's a pattern with him.

00:03:45.000 The absurdity of suggesting that a woman is past her prime when she is 51 years old, like 0.99

00:03:49.960 Nikki Haley.

00:03:50.640 I just pulled just for fun, just for kicks, because you guys are both historians.

00:03:53.380 Some of the best known women on Earth in modern history.

00:03:58.680 Margaret Thatcher, she was 54 when she became prime minister of Great Britain.

00:04:03.060 Nancy Pelosi became speaker of the House for the first time when she was 67.

00:04:06.320 Pastor Prime, sorry, Nance.

00:04:08.340 Kamala Harris was 55 when she became the vice president of the United States.

00:04:11.340 Katanji Brown Jackson is 52, newly placed on the US Supreme Court.

00:04:15.060 While we're on the subject of Supreme Court, Eleni Kagan was 50 when she was confirmed.

00:04:18.480 Sonia Sotomayor, 55 when she was confirmed.

00:04:21.000 Mary Barra, CEO of GM, was 53 when she took over that role.

00:04:25.820 She's now 61, but past her prime.

00:04:27.880 Suzanne Scott over at Fox News became CEO of Fox when she was 51.

00:04:32.000 Susan Wojcicki, CEO of YouTube, she's 54.

00:04:35.500 I could keep going.

00:04:36.620 And by the way, what an insult to people like Dana Bash, who's 51, and his colleague at CNN.

00:04:42.980 Sorry, past your due date.

00:04:45.080 What does he mean by prime?

00:04:46.760 The co-anchor had an instinct that this was offensive, but frankly, wasn't effective enough

00:04:52.080 to actually shove it down his throat and recognize, are you referring to childbearing years?

00:04:58.280 Because that is something women can mostly only do in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. 1.00

00:05:02.920 And he wouldn't even sign on to that.

00:05:05.400 But just childbearing is not what determines whether a woman is in her prime. 0.93

00:05:10.060 What an ancient, anachronistic, stupid way of evaluating a woman's worth. 1.00

00:05:15.620 The truth is, all those women I just mentioned, most of them did have kids when they were in

00:05:19.640 their 20s and their 30s and their 40s.

00:05:21.220 And then they went on to achieve huge professional success after they did all of the things that

00:05:26.460 women are capable of doing, raising families, having babies, which only we can do, right? 1.00

00:05:31.060 And instead of getting credit for that, for doing it all and achieving huge career heights

00:05:35.560 in their 50s, they get reduced to you're a nothing.

00:05:39.100 You're post, you're due date, you're stale.

00:05:41.000 Now you're over because you're not at the age where you could service a man in having 0.98

00:05:45.800 a baby.

00:05:46.760 This is blatant sexism and shame on him for doing this on the air.

00:05:51.680 And frankly, those other women on set with him were pathetic and weak in calling him out.

00:05:55.680 He deserved a more robust response.

00:05:57.520 He was he deserves it now from the colleagues at CNN.

00:06:00.560 He deserves it from the colleagues in the news industry and the bosses at CNN.

00:06:04.080 And it's not the first time it was a couple of months ago that S.E.

00:06:08.480 Cupp was on the set with Don Lemon and forgot her words not long after having a baby.

00:06:12.920 And this is how he handled it.

00:06:16.680 13 percent of Republicans want a total ban on abortion.

00:06:20.440 Seventy percent of Republicans.

00:06:25.500 You lose your train of thought.

00:06:26.720 I do it all the time.

00:06:28.700 Is it fair to say this because I'm not a mommy, but is it mommy brain?

00:06:31.400 Is it you?

00:06:32.240 No, I forget what I'm talking about all the time.

00:06:39.300 No, you ass. 0.99

00:06:40.580 It has nothing to do with her mommy brain. 0.95

00:06:42.160 People forget their words, male and female.

00:06:44.280 This is a pattern with him.

00:06:45.460 Remember when he asked whether a Bill Cosby female rape victim who said she'd been forced

00:06:49.200 to perform oral sex. 0.99

00:06:50.520 She should have just gotten out of it by biting down. 0.98

00:06:52.820 What an idiot.

00:06:53.720 He doesn't understand anything about women, about America, about prime.

00:06:58.920 He's 56, by the way.

00:07:00.340 I guess he'd be the first to tell you he's still in his prime.

00:07:02.720 But the Internet says that we women, we're well past our prime.

00:07:06.600 So we about to be put out to pasture.

00:07:08.320 I'm sorry.

00:07:09.300 This is absurd.

00:07:10.460 I've had it with this guy.

00:07:11.940 OK, I'm done with my rant.

00:07:14.800 Well, he can't be trusted with a microphone.

00:07:17.580 I mean, he's live on television and he doesn't seem to understand that Nikki Haley is running

00:07:23.480 for president, not the hundred yard dash in the Olympics.

00:07:27.120 Right.

00:07:27.860 I mean, that's something where, you know, prime age might be between 18 and 40.

00:07:34.840 She's running to be an executive. 1.00

00:07:37.100 And he must he deals with executives and female executives at CNN. 1.00

00:07:42.680 I'm sure of it.

00:07:43.520 Does he think they're they're past their prime, that they shouldn't be in those jobs, that

00:07:49.500 that they can't raise questions about 80 year olds in the job?

00:07:54.560 It's it is so far beyond the pale.

00:07:57.700 I think he knew he stuck his foot in it a little bit.

00:08:00.740 But you're right.

00:08:01.340 No one really pushed back.

00:08:03.860 And yeah, his authority on it was Google.

00:08:06.320 Just Google.

00:08:06.920 I mean, no, hang on, guys, I think we should give Don Lemon a little bit of credit.

00:08:13.060 We should recognize that if there's anybody on Earth who knows what it means to not be

00:08:17.140 in prime time anymore, it's Don Lemon.

00:08:20.120 Now that he's hosting the morning show, you do kind of wonder how much look there's new

00:08:24.720 management at CNN.

00:08:26.320 He used to be in prime time.

00:08:27.860 Now he's in the morning show.

00:08:28.980 He's not even kind of the lead anchor here.

00:08:30.660 I did love the body language of the two women co-anchoring with them, that you kind of see 0.99

00:08:35.620 them backing away, almost as if he had set off some sort of radioactive self-cancellation

00:08:41.780 dirty bomb right there on set.

00:08:43.700 And they didn't even want to be that close to him.

00:08:45.400 It was like one step short of Mike Myers when Kanye West said that George Bush doesn't care

00:08:50.260 about black people.

00:08:51.120 That kind of sense of like, this is a moment that's going to get viral and I don't want

00:08:54.500 to be in the shot.

00:08:55.400 I don't want to be too close to him.

00:08:56.680 You kind of wonder though, like if you really, if you really like working at CNN and if you

00:09:01.920 like your coworkers and if you like women, like people above age 40, do you say things 1.00

00:09:08.320 like that?

00:09:08.780 Or are you in some sort of effort to not be working at CNN as quickly as possible?

00:09:13.020 Because I'm trying to imagine what else you could say that would be more likely to make

00:09:17.020 the executive sit up and say, oh, oh, we've got a maniac on our morning show.

00:09:21.260 This statement probably will be what does it.

00:09:23.680 It is part of a pattern and it ties in with the allegations that have been made against

00:09:28.520 him recently that he was screaming at his co-host, Caitlin Collins, because she had the temerity

00:09:34.380 to interrupt him and he was annoyed.

00:09:36.680 It's hard to be demoted from the primetime solo anchor to the morning show co-anchor having

00:09:41.940 to sell, share your set with these annoying women. 1.00

00:09:45.640 Thank God they're in their prime.

00:09:47.140 At least he wasn't subjected to that indignity.

00:09:48.920 And so he was screaming at her to the point where the cast or the crew was uncomfortable

00:09:54.500 and Caitlin Collins reportedly ran out of the studio.

00:09:57.940 Then he had another meltdown with his colleagues the other morning where he was he staved off

00:10:03.140 going to break because he was upset that his female colleague didn't excoriate a congressman

00:10:09.860 for mentioning the New York Post as a reliable source.

00:10:13.340 He was upset that that had been referenced as a reliable news organization and staved off break

00:10:18.340 because he needed to get out the fact that it's not in his view.

00:10:21.760 This is over the Hunter Biden reporting, of course, which his own news network later confirmed.

00:10:26.080 So he's this is a pattern of him diminishing.

00:10:28.480 I'm telling you, look into it.

00:10:30.840 If any reporter worth their salt would actually do some digging, call CNN, do it.

00:10:35.060 Call their HR right now.

00:10:36.580 Find out whether he's got a history of harassing his female colleagues.

00:10:40.200 I dare any reporter out there to do it.

00:10:42.960 All right.

00:10:43.340 I'll do it myself.

00:10:44.400 I'll do it today after the show and I'll get back to you on what they say.

00:10:46.860 Um, but this is a pattern with this guy.

00:10:50.040 He does not respect women.

00:10:51.400 He does not see women as equals.

00:10:53.240 He views women who are over the age of 40 as past their due date.

00:10:57.340 And this is who they have covering Nikki Haley.

00:10:59.540 How's that going to go?

00:11:00.480 Right.

00:11:01.000 How how how are we supposed to look at him as viewers and take anything he has to say

00:11:05.920 about female politicians, never mind Republicans? 0.99

00:11:08.600 Seriously.

00:11:08.920 There's also a larger problem, a cultural problem at CNN, I think.

00:11:15.520 I mean, we had, you know, I think the story of what Mary Catherine Hamm was just a few months

00:11:20.240 ago where she was suspended because she had made negative comments about a man who was

00:11:25.800 who unfurled himself on a Zoom meeting and got suspended for it.

00:11:31.960 And then they they thought she was too sensitive because she was pregnant at the time and couldn't

00:11:37.120 handle the news that she'd been suspended.

00:11:38.820 It's ridiculous.

00:11:40.320 Um, did you say unfurled himself?

00:11:42.940 That's I've never heard the situation described.

00:11:46.420 I just it's quite generous, actually.

00:11:49.320 It's a it's a family show.

00:11:51.040 So I don't know how else to.

00:11:52.740 Is it for furling and unfurling something you do with like a sail on a boat?

00:11:57.480 I've never heard masturbation described.

00:12:01.820 He let it fly.

00:12:03.320 I'm just saying.

00:12:05.080 He certainly did.

00:12:07.280 No, you're right.

00:12:08.340 You're right.

00:12:08.700 CNN has got to do something about this.

00:12:10.820 I was like, Megan, you've spent a lot of time in the world of cable news and network news.

00:12:16.240 I've only been there as a guest.

00:12:17.840 And the vast majority of people I've interacted with seemed sane at the time.

00:12:22.280 Perhaps they went off and did crazy things afterwards.

00:12:24.400 But in my presence, they did not seem like lunatics.

00:12:26.800 But you look at the history, you look at all the events of Me Too, the infamous stories about Matt Lauer.

00:12:32.240 Michael referred to Jeffrey Toobin, the man who lived down to his surname.

00:12:37.400 And you just have this this bizarre sense.

00:12:40.040 I know it's a high pressure environment.

00:12:41.640 I know there's a lot of stress, a lot of changing rapid changes and moving parts and all that.

00:12:47.080 But I kind of wonder if like this is an environment where someone who's who's, you know, a few fries short of a happy meal, as they say, necessarily stands out or gets noticed.

00:12:57.380 It's almost an environment where someone who is not the sharpest knife in the drawer and who has this kind of intense emotional outbursts and inappropriate treatment of others.

00:13:07.900 Sometimes those people seem to thrive in that kind of environment.

00:13:10.640 Now, again, you spent a lot more time there.

00:13:12.560 So I'm sure you can talk, you know, I'm sure you have horrible war stories to tell.

00:13:16.380 But it does seem weird that we keep seeing this coming up in an environment that's always all smiles and more with this after the break, kind of, you know, friendly, jovial.

00:13:24.840 Everyone's having a nice time type environment.

00:13:26.760 Well, I mean, television news is a toxic industry and it's not just cable.

00:13:32.380 Trust me, because I worked at the broadcast channels, too.

00:13:34.640 It's toxic.

00:13:35.920 And it is there's something very disgusting about large elements of it.

00:13:39.320 It's not to say there's no nobility left in media and including in broadcast journalism.

00:13:43.460 There is.

00:13:44.040 But it's largely overshadowed by these personalities that get drunk on their own wine and then get this permission slip to run roughshod over the workforce, over their colleagues.

00:13:57.080 The egos get out of control.

00:13:58.860 Right.

00:13:58.980 And you like at Fox, at least, let's take Bill O'Reilly.

00:14:03.500 He had a huge ego and wound up being a problem in some ways.

00:14:07.400 But the guy was extremely talented and was the number one rated show in cable for many, many years.

00:14:12.820 Like you could see why they tried to put up with him.

00:14:16.100 Right.

00:14:16.380 I mean, Bill's got talent.

00:14:17.600 There's no denying that.

00:14:18.900 That lemon has no talent.

00:14:20.500 Why are they doing this?

00:14:21.740 Why are they allowing this over and over?

00:14:23.480 It's because literally as he went out and reminded them when there was the shift in management, he's a black gay man.

00:14:28.980 He went on the air when Chris Licht took over and reminded him and everyone, I'm black and I'm gay.

00:14:35.640 And Jeff Zucker was the first man to put me in prime time.

00:14:38.100 And don't forget it.

00:14:39.080 And this can be used in newsrooms now as a threat.

00:14:42.540 Right.

00:14:42.960 Like if you try to fire me or demote me or do something that I'm really going to find upsetting, I'm going to go public with how you dislike people like me.

00:14:50.520 And you need a boss who's got a pair to say, go ahead and do it.

00:14:56.920 Fine.

00:14:57.320 Go ahead and do it because you've embarrassed yourself.

00:15:00.320 You've embarrassed your colleagues.

00:15:01.640 You've embarrassed this network long enough that people will believe me that it was your performance, not your skin color and not your sexual orientation that led to this.

00:15:10.920 Yeah, I'm realizing we've talked this long and we haven't even mentioned the name Chris Cuomo and the glaring problem of having the brother of the New York governor being the primary interviewer of the New York governor during that pandemic and all of the inappropriate stuff.

00:15:30.640 Look, I mean, a lot of this traces back to Zucker and the mentality that he had his guys or his gals.

00:15:37.800 Zucker had his own issues with coworkers, as I'm sure people remember the news reports about.

00:15:41.680 And so it kind of turned into almost mafia-esque that for a certain level, you were a made man.

00:15:47.460 You were protected.

00:15:48.180 You could get away with anything.

00:15:49.800 And when that kind of, you know, when that signal is sent down from on high, we probably shouldn't be all that surprised that people start thinking, I'm a made man.

00:15:57.780 I can do whatever I want.

00:15:59.380 I can talk to anybody however I want.

00:16:01.420 I can treat my colleagues.

00:16:02.440 I can treat my staffers that way.

00:16:05.320 You know, this is unfortunately, you see it well beyond media environment.

00:16:09.000 You probably see this in almost any corporate environment, that if the leader sends a signal that treating your coworkers or other people badly is acceptable if you're a big enough name, well, then not only does it, you know, make other people who are big names say, okay, I can do that.

00:16:22.640 It makes everybody want to be one of those big names.

00:16:25.020 So they're no longer accountable for, you know, acting terribly.

00:16:28.400 Mm hmm.

00:16:28.980 No, you mentioned Chris Cuomo, who's in the news yesterday, Michael, because he he gave an interview on Scaramucci's new podcast.

00:16:35.980 And in this interview, he is indignant about the fact that he was canned from CNN.

00:16:40.960 He is still very angry and is blaming everyone other than himself and came out with a bizarre comment saying after it happened, he wanted to kill a bunch of people and include it.

00:16:53.420 And then said, including himself.

00:16:55.960 I have learned to accept it.

00:16:57.700 I had to accept because I was going to kill everybody, including myself.

00:17:02.500 Things can consume you.

00:17:03.720 Italians are so passionate.

00:17:05.020 And I really had to fight against that.

00:17:06.720 I mean, I can understand a little bit being angry after a forced separation from a job that you feel is unjust, but you want to you want to kill people?

00:17:18.280 You want to go out and kill people?

00:17:19.080 Like, OK, could be just tongue in cheek.

00:17:20.600 But when you hear it in context, he's really pissed off about being separated from CNN as a result of his own behavior.

00:17:29.180 He doesn't take responsibility.

00:17:30.640 Don Lemon doesn't take responsibility.

00:17:31.960 And now he's just sitting there in a pit of his own bitterness.

00:17:35.760 He not only doesn't take responsibility for that, he didn't even take responsibility for that bizarre statement that he wanted to kill everyone and himself.

00:17:44.820 Because he immediately attributed that statement to his Italian-ness, quote unquote, right?

00:17:51.780 He said, maybe it's I'm passionate because I'm Italian, but this is how I felt.

00:17:56.740 And it's like, OK, so this is, again, you're seeing in Cuomo and Lemon this really crude casting couch stereotype understanding of themselves and everyone else around them, right?

00:18:14.120 Like, they view it as like, well, the script calls for a gay black man, a passionate Italian, because all Italians have to be passionate.

00:18:24.980 And, you know, and then the women are totally replaceable. 1.00

00:18:28.840 You know, once they turn 30, just get a new one, because there's a million on the bus on the way here.

00:18:33.960 And none of them are worth what they're what the work they actually do.

00:18:38.260 It's it's incredibly crude.

00:18:39.860 I mean, it's it's totally repellent, right?

00:18:43.440 I mean, it's it's repellent, I think, to the audience.

00:18:46.120 The audience picks up on this kind of contemptuous understanding of the audience that's at play when people understand themselves this way and the contempt they have for each other when they understand themselves this way.

00:18:59.000 So it's not a surprise that CNN just keeps sinking.

00:19:03.940 Yeah, no, you're right.

00:19:04.680 And by the way, this just off the presses, Nikki Haley just responded.

00:19:08.880 She launched a presidential campaign yesterday. 1.00

00:19:10.960 This is that was the context in which this came up.

00:19:14.140 Because she was saying, look, it's time for a new generation of leaders and so on.

00:19:17.460 And these 75 should have the competency test.

00:19:19.880 And Don Lemon thought that was an appropriate time to say she's passed her prime.

00:19:23.000 She's a 51 year old woman. 0.83

00:19:24.200 So she should be careful talking about age.

00:19:25.980 Really?

00:19:26.640 OK.

00:19:26.920 She just responded in a tweet that reads as follows.

00:19:29.900 Liberals can't stand the idea of having competency tests for older politicians to make sure they can do the job.

00:19:35.480 By the way, it's always the liberals who are the most sexist.

00:19:39.220 And she included the video of Don Lemon just to remove any doubt about what she was referring to.

00:19:44.700 It's always the liberals who are the most sexist.

00:19:47.780 So you tell me whether he will get a pass on this, which I, as I pointed out, is part of a series of comments for this guy.

00:19:54.560 It's not a one off.

00:19:55.980 Well, whether he will get a pass or whether he will be forced to address it, he will be forced to get out of CNN as he should have been a long time ago, or whether this will just go off into the ether of the Internet.

00:20:08.720 I predict he'll address it on the air in a kind of slimy way of, I didn't mean to offend anyone, and just kind of try to end the story in a two sentence non-apology.

00:20:24.880 That's what will happen.

00:20:26.500 But because of the pattern of behavior, he will explode himself on a landmine eventually.

00:20:31.600 I mean, when he, you know, if you go back just to December, you know, liberals started to show their lack of patience with him when he mansplained.

00:20:41.180 So they said, why female athletes get paid less than male athletes. 0.98

00:20:45.700 So I think, you know, the knives are starting to sharpen, but he'll get out of this one just with a, you know, a whiff of an apology.

00:20:55.280 Mm-hmm.

00:20:57.380 I'm still stuck on the fact, Jim, that what kind of a man, you guys are married, you have families, what kind of a man looks at a woman and says, you've got these three decades to be in your prime?

00:21:09.800 You've got your 20s, you've got your 30s.

00:21:11.620 Really, it's two, because he was like maybe 40.

00:21:13.580 That's what he said.

00:21:14.180 That's it.

00:21:15.180 Then you're past your prime.

00:21:16.720 You will service me, a man, by having a baby.

00:21:19.340 And by the way, he's a gay man, so not him, but a man.

00:21:21.860 You will service me by having a baby or several babies, and that's what will make you valuable.

00:21:27.160 You see, that's how you should think about yourself and how you matter.

00:21:31.220 And when you're no longer capable of doing that, you're past your prime.

00:21:35.320 So truly, why don't you just take up knitting, go sit in a field, and think about your glory days when you were servicing me as a wife or as a mom, only, only, only if you're capable of having a child.

00:21:46.380 And by all you women out there who didn't have a child, screw you, because you never had a prime. 1.00

00:21:50.840 You have nothing.

00:21:51.860 You didn't even use your uterus the way God intended. 1.00

00:21:54.940 It's absolutely outrageous if you think about what he's actually saying.

00:21:58.480 And he's so stupid, he can't even articulate it.

00:22:01.780 He's just got to say, well, the Google says so.

00:22:03.600 The Google.

00:22:04.340 The Google.

00:22:05.480 Go ahead, Jim.

00:22:06.100 Megan, I'm glad you pointed that out, because I was going to say, I'm pretty sure Don Lemon and Michael and I see women pretty differently.

00:22:13.600 Look, he has been in a situation where he's been able to play this card of being a minority. 0.59

00:22:19.520 And that has worked as a get out of controversy, get out of consequences free card enough times in the past.

00:22:27.160 I do think that card is probably reaching its expiration date.

00:22:30.020 I suspect right now at CNN, they're probably having meetings of, do we want the headache of the reaction from women viewers of having our anchor spout off about these things? 0.95

00:22:40.020 Or do we want the headache of letting Don Lemon go?

00:22:43.300 And he will inevitably accuse us of being racist and homophobic and things like that.

00:22:47.580 And it couldn't possibly be that he's turned into this walking controversy machine.

00:22:51.660 By the way, when Michael was talking about Chris Cuomo's comments and how he said, ah, you know, my desire to kill everyone and myself was just my Italian-ness.

00:23:00.280 I was reminded about when Andrew Cuomo was accused of sexual harassment, one of the unofficial slogans was, I'm not perverted, I'm just Italian.

00:23:08.580 The idea that he was very hands-on, very touchy-feely, and that this was a cultural expression and that some way too sensitive women were, you know, taking offense or responding and just not understanding this was a cultural tradition of his.

00:23:24.560 Now, obviously, both of them seem eager to live down to the stereotypes of Italian-Americans.

00:23:29.840 I'll let you insert the Chris Cuomo Fredo joke wherever you like somewhere in here.

00:23:35.200 And I just kind of observe that they really are hot-tempered and threatening to kill people and touching people inappropriately.

00:23:41.960 Look, first of all, I think a lot of Italian-Americans say, no, that's not what we are.

00:23:45.560 But simply, just wouldn't it be nice if everyone could be as even-tempered, calm, and rational as Irish-Americans like us?

00:23:51.400 Life would be so much easier.

00:23:56.160 We're famously not even-tempered and calm and rational and all of that.

00:24:00.920 But I'm half and half.

00:24:02.440 I'm Italian and Irish, and therefore, so is my brother.

00:24:05.840 And he's never touched anybody inappropriately or chalked any of it up to, you know, any bad behavior up to that, right?

00:24:11.660 Like, if you're Irish, if you're Italian, you're fiery.

00:24:14.020 That's generally how it works.

00:24:15.160 You're not running around touching people's genitals inappropriately.

00:24:17.400 That's not the thing, as Andrew Cuomo was accused of doing.

00:24:22.540 And Chris Cuomo defended it and worked to smear the women behind the scenes while he lied about it to his audience.

00:24:28.160 That's why he got fired.

00:24:29.780 And then he was accused by a couple of women of his own Me Too situation, situations.

00:24:34.640 And so we had a woman on our show who accused him of Me Too-ing her, Shelley Ross, who accused him of grabbing her ass in a public place, who was his executive producer.

00:24:42.420 And so, look, that was Chris Cuomo, not the brother Andrew.

00:24:45.520 I could go down the list.

00:24:47.060 And none of this is to say that anybody shouldn't have, you know, a mistake or a moment where they fall down and they do something stupid and they come out and say, sorry, I'm human.

00:24:56.980 We all get that.

00:24:58.340 We don't want to live in a world in which that's not possible.

00:25:00.700 But this guy is an abusive, sexist jerk.

00:25:03.220 And it's time for him to go.

00:25:04.640 And, you know, CNN is really saying something to America if they stick by him after this.

00:25:08.480 But we'll see.

00:25:09.080 We'll see how new management feels about this kind of behavior.

00:25:11.780 All right, let's move on to Nikki Haley.

00:25:13.640 She's more interesting than Don Lemon. 0.93

00:25:16.220 She came out yesterday.

00:25:17.340 First, she did this video, which I thought was kind of lame.

00:25:19.400 I got to be honest.

00:25:20.200 But then she did a better job, I thought, at her rally. 0.94

00:25:22.540 You know, she had the flags and people were waving and there was more energy.

00:25:25.600 And she sort of made her point about wanting to run and how it's time to move on.

00:25:32.120 She did, I was happy to see, address, like her video said, like, and it's so much better when you do it in stilettos. 0.98

00:25:39.860 And I was like, come on, you know, like you're not running as a Democrat.

00:25:43.320 Stop like Republicans don't want to hear that nonsense.

00:25:45.620 They're over all this BS about like, I'll be tougher because I'm a woman.

00:25:49.300 Like, OK, come on.

00:25:50.820 And she did better on that.

00:25:52.000 And she kind of made the following point, which I think was well done.

00:25:54.480 This is top five.

00:25:55.160 As I set out on this new journey, I will simply say this.

00:26:02.280 May the best woman win. 0.88

00:26:04.880 All kidding aside, this is not about identity politics.

00:26:08.800 I don't believe in that.

00:26:10.180 And I don't believe in glass ceilings either.

00:26:14.460 Then she went on to say, well, we have it.

00:26:16.540 Here's thought six right in the back end.

00:26:17.840 Take it from me, the first minority female governor in history. 0.99

00:26:23.880 America is not a racist country.

00:26:28.660 So I thought that was a good parlay of like, instead of buying into identity politics, sort of using her diversity to say, no, this Democratic narrative about our country is BS.

00:26:39.720 And it was a much stronger foot forward overall, just the whole message, I thought, when she got live in front of the crowd.

00:26:46.060 But what do you guys make of Nikki Haley's official entrance into this race, Jim?

00:26:52.480 Look, there's no getting around the fact that she has an uphill climb, right?

00:26:55.680 That, you know, Donald Trump is the 800-pound gorilla in the room.

00:26:59.180 Ron DeSantis has been the challenger that has climbed up in the polls most frequently.

00:27:03.360 But I don't think Nikki Haley should be dismissed.

00:27:05.780 I think she brings a really unique set and combination of experience to the role.

00:27:10.560 I think your point is a good one, which is that, look, we know she's a woman.

00:27:14.720 We're looking right at her.

00:27:15.740 We know she's indeed American.

00:27:17.460 We can see that.

00:27:19.060 That's never been kind of the centerpiece of her political rise through power. 0.99

00:27:25.220 Certainly not the way Kamala Harris has emphasized being a minority and being a woman in her political career out in California. 0.93

00:27:32.540 So, you know, I think the best argument for the Nikki Haley is like, look, you're talking about someone who has both domestic experience of being governor, being a state legislator, and also taking on her own party when she thought there was an old boys network that was protecting wasteful spending.

00:27:48.520 She didn't want to have recorded votes in the state legislature for a whole bunch of years. 0.84

00:27:52.360 She fought a long, hard fight over that one.

00:27:54.700 Then she went to the United Nations.

00:27:56.440 And, you know, under President Trump, a lot of folks, people thought they'd have difficult, she would have difficulty working under him.

00:28:01.920 Managed to get quite a bit done.

00:28:03.160 Managed to get rave reviews from folks like the New York Times editorial board.

00:28:06.900 Folks who you would not think would be giving any credit to anybody.

00:28:09.840 And that scares Republicans.

00:28:10.500 And then you point out the fact she's, you know, her husband was in Afghanistan for a year.

00:28:15.100 She's been in a military family.

00:28:17.000 She served on the board of Boeing and then stepped down from the board when she thought it was taking too much in COVID relief money.

00:28:22.640 She's on the board of trustees of Clemson University.

00:28:25.020 It's a really wide ranging experience in life that I think will be very helpful if she ends up becoming presidency, the president.

00:28:31.800 But there's a long, long road ahead.

00:28:33.660 Michael, she was on Hannity last night and he was trying to get her to say, how, how are you going to be different from President Trump when it comes to policy?

00:28:44.540 Like, why would you be a better choice than the guy who already has the huge base and support and so on?

00:28:49.100 There's a little bit of that.

00:28:50.640 It was a bunch of dodging here.

00:28:53.200 What specific policy areas would you, would you say part with Donald Trump?

00:28:59.980 What I am saying is I don't kick sideways.

00:29:02.780 I'm kicking forward.

00:29:04.140 Joe Biden is the president.

00:29:05.580 He's the one I'm running against.

00:29:07.240 You said that if former President Trump was going to run, you wouldn't run.

00:29:11.780 It's been reported that a couple weeks ago you call your former boss.

00:29:16.260 You asked for his blessing to run.

00:29:19.180 And he said that you you called him the greatest president.

00:29:24.320 If that's true, then why run against him?

00:29:26.600 I'm going to keep that phone call personal.

00:29:28.600 I didn't ask.

00:29:29.980 I told that I thought that we needed to go in a new direction.

00:29:33.220 But when I first said I wouldn't run against him, Afghanistan hadn't fallen. 0.94

00:29:37.680 We didn't see the rise in inflation like we've seen.

00:29:40.580 We didn't see what was happening in our schools the way it was.

00:29:43.260 And we didn't see the results of the midterms that we just had.

00:29:46.540 It is time for a new generation of leaders.

00:29:50.100 You shouldn't have to be 80 years old to get to Washington.

00:29:53.080 What do you make of it like?

00:29:57.380 Yeah, I don't think she wants to make the policy contrast yet.

00:30:00.400 I don't because I don't think she wants to alienate Trump's voters in a strong way yet.

00:30:05.700 I don't think she wants to attack the boss.

00:30:09.200 Right.

00:30:09.380 I mean, when she was, you know, at the UN, she made a big deal in almost all of her public speeches about how the job of a political appointee in an administration is to execute the boss's policy.

00:30:25.660 And what she was doing was she was basically drawing a contrast between herself as a loyalist and all of the people in D.C. and in the White House itself that were leaking Donald Trump to death during his administration and, you know, had Maggie Haberman on speed dial.

00:30:42.060 She was saying, I know who's boss and I know the order here.

00:30:46.060 So I think she's always been careful about raising Donald Trump's ire.

00:30:51.060 And I think she wants Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis to duke it out and for her to be the person who doesn't get bruised in that fight.

00:30:59.800 And if she doesn't want the campaign talk, I think, though, she has a problem in that if she doesn't want her campaign talk to be about her identity as a woman or as an Indian American, she actually has to run on policies. 0.95

00:31:15.080 Right. And it's just not true that she's only running against Joe Biden.

00:31:20.040 Donald Trump already declared his intention to run in this race.

00:31:23.780 And now she's declaring she is running against Donald Trump.

00:31:27.300 So she has to make a case against him.

00:31:30.160 And, you know, she could if she wanted to.

00:31:33.220 I mean, if I were advising her, I would say that she should flip around the script that she had when she was working for him and say one of the things that chief executive has to do is discipline the people who are leaking him to death, is exert control and take control of the office.

00:31:50.600 And then that was a persistent problem with Donald Trump's administration that he never quite got control of his own White House.

00:31:57.240 And it had to depend on the extraordinary loyalty of servants like her to get through the ship unscathed or without sinking.

00:32:06.320 If she doesn't make that case, then all the talk is just going to be about how she's a woman and she's a minority. 1.00

00:32:12.220 And this is a different take on America, but it it will be the identity politics that she said she doesn't want to get into.

00:32:18.900 Yeah. If anything, she should she should play that stuff down and just say, let's move on.

00:32:23.200 Yes. Clearly, I'm a woman. Next.

00:32:25.380 I mean, that would be the most effective way of handling it.

00:32:28.220 But she you know, there are no unique situations. 0.97

00:32:30.860 She, DeSantis, anybody else who's thinking about running, because normally you don't run against a guy who was already president for the nomination.

00:32:39.260 It's just such a unique situation for these GOP years where to the dynamic you just said, MBD, she's got to be careful because he does have a huge piece of the Republican base already with him who would be somewhat offended if you go after him too hard.

00:32:54.360 It's not like 2015 where they were all running and they were all equals.

00:32:59.160 And I think at this point in the contest, Donald Trump had like single digit support in 2015 at this point.

00:33:07.280 And Jeb Bush was the favorite at that. Right. Remember those days? Jeb Bush.

00:33:11.340 Right. And look how that got turned around. So it's a tricky maneuver for anybody coming into it.

00:33:17.260 She's first. Well, John Bolton technically declared on Good Morning Britain, but she's the first real one to have to navigate it.

00:33:24.640 Yeah. And one of the oddities is that you'll have not just a former president running for another term.

00:33:31.720 Trump conceivably could be running against maybe three former cabinet officials.

00:33:36.600 Haley, as you mentioned, John Bolton, if he chooses to run, he's kind of, you know, been been hinting, but not before.

00:33:42.160 And Mike Pompeo certainly looks and sounds like a man who's interested in running for president,

00:33:45.900 which puts all of them in this odd situation where if any of the three say, you know, Trump,

00:33:53.220 you shouldn't vote for Trump because of X, people would say, well, wait a second.

00:33:55.760 Why did you go work for the guy? And if Trump goes out and says, ah, you know, Nikki, she was the worst or Bolton,

00:34:01.160 as Trump has at certain points in social media ripped into Bolton, et cetera.

00:34:05.400 The question was, well, why did you hire them? Well, you know, that this is this bizarre situation.

00:34:10.160 All these people who were former teammates would be in a situation in which they have to say, no,

00:34:14.820 I'm a better choice than that person. I think there was a subtle criticism or maybe not so subtle

00:34:19.640 criticism of Trump in the age points. He would point out that he would qualify for that cognitive test that

00:34:26.500 she was calling for. Clearly it was aimed at Biden, but also he's old enough to qualify for it.

00:34:30.700 And all of the comments about how we can't win the challenges of the 21st century by going with

00:34:35.520 the leadership of the 20th century, that probably would apply for Trump also. He's only a couple

00:34:40.520 of years younger than Joe Biden is. So there's this probably, I think the easiest argument against

00:34:45.440 Trump for a Republican party that is in most cases voted for him twice and is still at least open to

00:34:52.120 the possibility of voting for him again is to say, it's time for a fresh, it's time to thank him for

00:34:57.780 his service. It's time for a fresh face. It's, we can't, you know, we've already run that candidate

00:35:02.160 and lost a race in 2020. Although there's some Republicans who insist he didn't lose.

00:35:06.280 And just to say, why do we want to rerun this? It's time for something new. It's time for something

00:35:10.280 fresh. It's time for Trumpism without Donald Trump himself.

00:35:14.980 Well, it's kind of exciting to see it start to happen. You know, here we are February.

00:35:18.680 It's underway. I mean, the next 2024 is officially underway. The Trump announcement was so

00:35:23.340 early. It was a little odd. Um, now she's announcing Tim Scott is at some 2024, uh, group

00:35:29.780 gathering where, you know, there's potential donors Bolton, as I mentioned, Mike Pence is

00:35:35.060 definitely sniffing around it. So this is in the next couple of months, we're going to have a much

00:35:38.340 better feel for who exactly is in or about to declare that they're in. All right, let me take

00:35:43.220 a quick break. And on the opposite side of this, we're going to talk about Joe Biden making a comment.

00:35:48.000 Many have deemed racist. It's not the first time Jim and Michael stay with us.

00:35:51.880 Your business doesn't move in a straight line. Make sure your team is taken care of through every

00:35:57.900 twist and turn with Canada life savings, retirement and benefits plans. Whether you want to grow your

00:36:03.560 team, support your employees at every stage, or build a workplace people want to be a part of

00:36:08.540 Canada life has flexible plans for companies of all sizes. So it's easy to find a solution that works

00:36:14.720 for you. Visit Canada life.com slash employee benefits to learn more Canada life insurance

00:36:21.320 investments, advice.

00:36:26.620 Okay. So guys, Joe Biden has got a long history of making racist comments, right? Remember Barack Obama's

00:36:35.520 vice president after saying stuff like that? And it could go on, right? You know, put you all back in

00:36:46.960 chains and blah, blah, blah. So now he comes out and he made a comment about Maryland's new governor,

00:36:55.100 who is black, Wes Moore. And here is how that went. And you got a hell of a new governor, Wes Moore, I tell you.

00:37:08.760 He's the real deal. And the boy looked like he still play. He got some guns on him.

00:37:15.580 Okay. Did you hear that? The boy, the boy looked like he could still play. Now, if Donald Trump did

00:37:20.580 this, it would be the lead on every cable news show in America, including definitely Don Lennon's

00:37:26.360 bubkiss though, right? So far, no problem. And by the way, it's not the first time that Joe Biden

00:37:31.580 is referred to a black man as boy. So what do we make of it?

00:37:37.280 Um, well, this is actually, there's a funny read on this. I mean, he he's done this forever. I mean,

00:37:43.240 in 2006, he said something like, you cannot even go to a seven 11 or a Dunkin donuts unless you have a

00:37:49.100 slight Indian accent. Um, he plays with stereotypes these way outdated ones. And, and actually, I, I,

00:37:59.580 I hate to say this. I actually think it works to his advantage somewhat. Um, it's, it's disrespectful

00:38:06.840 in my view, but it actually is one of the reasons why the woke brand doesn't stick to him, right? It is,

00:38:13.780 his, his administration may be doing everything it can to promote wokeness in education, higher

00:38:19.540 education in, you know, in employment through civil rights, uh, you know, title seven, uh, litigation,

00:38:28.320 et cetera. Uh, but he is obviously one of these old school politicians who thinks that the way to,

00:38:36.940 to get to office is to flatter ethnic stereotypes, wherever you find them. And no matter how crude they 0.79

00:38:42.320 are, and it's not going to change because of his age, but I actually, I, I weirdly think this plays

00:38:49.600 to his advantage. I, people, you know, no one ends up actually taking offense except Republicans who

00:38:56.520 think like, if we had said this, we'd never get away with it. But he does. I mean, like he, he said all

00:39:02.620 those crazy things, um, about black Americans and yet black Americans were his strongest constituency 1.00

00:39:09.320 in the, the primaries that led to his nomination. Um, possibly because they too are attached to kind

00:39:17.320 of an older cultural politics. Um, so I, I think this is a weird double-edged sword for him. Like,

00:39:23.720 I, like, I can't believe it. Like my jaw hits the floor just like everyone else, but there's this weird

00:39:30.780 way where, you know, people let him get away with it partly because he's a decrepit old man,

00:39:36.380 right? Like what else do you expect from him? And also, also because most of this wokeness is

00:39:43.040 performative, Jim Garrity. Like they, they only use it to hurt people they want to hurt. And generally

00:39:48.820 it's somebody across the political aisle. Most of it is an act used to punish one's enemies as opposed

00:39:54.820 to genuine indignation over a comment. That's why these woke leftists are not going to say anything

00:40:02.160 about him referring to a black governor as boy. Yeah. Look, you know, many folks on the right

00:40:08.940 have observed accurately in my opinion, that once you have that D after your name, you have this

00:40:14.420 magic shield that protects you from all the consequences of your actions and things that you

00:40:17.980 say. Uh, Michael mentioned that, uh, rather infamous one during his 2008 campaign where, uh,

00:40:24.300 he talked about, you cannot go into a seven 11 unless you have a slight Indian accent.

00:40:27.940 I'd urge people to go back and watch the CNN, the C-SPAN clip of this, because it's not like the,

00:40:34.040 the Indian American gentleman he's speaking to brought up his heritage or ethnicity or anything

00:40:39.320 like that. He just has a Biden sign and he clearly just wants to talk to Biden. And the first thing out

00:40:45.180 of Biden's mouth is seven 11. Yeah. It really is kind of this like hideously stereotype. Like,

00:40:52.300 like you can only imagine how that guy must've felt that he's meeting Joe Biden and clearly wants to

00:40:57.440 talk to him about something related to politics in the campaign. And Biden wants to talk to him

00:41:02.520 about convenience stores. It's really kind of this, you know, obnoxiously condescending thing.

00:41:07.480 But I think that the common thread that runs through all of Biden's, um, comments that are

00:41:12.740 at minimum racially insensitive and tin-eared and others would argue racist is that Joe Biden walks

00:41:18.640 around convinced other people just love him, just adore him, can't get enough of him and that

00:41:24.320 everything he says is golden. And so that's why he can say to Charlemagne, the God, who was

00:41:29.920 during that infamous interview during the most recent presidential campaign, that radio host was

00:41:34.300 saying, you know, you really haven't answered all my questions. I'd really like to have you back on

00:41:37.740 the show so we can discuss this further. And that's when Biden unloads the, if you ain't voting for me,

00:41:43.320 you ain't black. And Biden is just convinced he can get away. We're all buddies. I can decide who's

00:41:50.120 black and who isn't. Me, you know, extraordinarily white Joe Biden. Um, and you know, that's what I

00:41:56.300 suspect why, uh, Jill Biden can give speeches where she talks about Mexican Americans as burritos or 1.00

00:42:02.780 something like that. Like they're really little tacos and they can get away with anything because

00:42:07.400 of that. It's crazy. Well, while we're on the topic of sort of woke agenda items, I'm interested

00:42:14.040 in what's happening with the New York times in this trans pushback. I don't know if you guys saw

00:42:17.660 this, but all these groups like glad and all these trans activist groups wrote this scathing letter to

00:42:25.160 the New York times. They're very angry that the times is making an attempt at sort of fair and

00:42:33.400 balanced coverage on the trans issues in particular transitioning children. Like they've, they've done

00:42:39.080 a couple of pieces that come close to being fair. That's as generous as I could be. Cause I read the

00:42:44.380 pieces, uh, and the activists are angry and demanding action. They, they're, they think that the times has

00:42:52.260 gone bigoted. Um, they want a real change. They want him of course, to appoint a bunch of trans 1.00

00:42:58.820 writers at the New York times. This is always the solution. Like we demand you hire five trans people 1.00

00:43:03.440 and so on. Um, they say things like this, uh, plenty of reporters at the times cover trans issues

00:43:10.160 fairly. Their work is eclipsed however, by what one journalist has calculated is over 15,000 words

00:43:14.560 of front page times coverage, debating the propriety of medical care for trans children published in the

00:43:20.400 last eight months alone. We won't stand for the times platforming lies, bias, fringe theories,

00:43:26.160 and dangerous inaccuracies. We demand folk fair coverage. We demand the times platform trans voices

00:43:32.400 as both sources and full-time writers and editors. And we demand a meeting between times leadership and

00:43:37.580 the transgender community. So what is the times going to do? Right? I mean, I feel like if, 0.99

00:43:43.660 if this happened at NBC, they'd be on the knee doing exactly what was demanded of them.

00:43:49.360 But interesting. And the, and the times may yet do that, but interestingly, the times,

00:43:55.120 was it today? Yes. This, this Thursday in a piece from Pamela Paul in the op-ed section,

00:44:01.420 uh, supports JK Rowling. So, I mean, you could read this as a middle finger to the activists

00:44:08.480 because what did they do in response to their, in the critique that they're too fair on these issues,

00:44:13.320 they got even fairer and put Pamela Paul in there talking about, I'll give you a segment from it. 1.00

00:44:17.940 They said, she writes, if more people stood up for JK Rowling, they would not only be doing right

00:44:22.240 by her, they'd also be standing up for human rights, specifically women's rights, gay rights,

00:44:26.360 and yes, transgender rights. They'd be standing up for the truth. Wow. All right. So what is this

00:44:32.640 telling us? I was going to say, I'd also note that late last night, apparently the New York Times PR

00:44:38.240 department issued a short statement that basically amounted to, we're proud of our reporting.

00:44:42.820 Uh, we hear you, we sympathize, but there was no retraction or apology or anything like that.

00:44:47.940 I think my favorite part of the complaint, Megan, is that, uh, they had identified a, a terrible

00:44:54.800 anti-trans dangerous right-wing extremist who had recently joined the New York Times.

00:44:59.860 And that of course is the former colleague of Michael and myself, David French. And as we all

00:45:04.680 know, when you think right-wing extremism, when you think hate, when you think, uh, frothing at the

00:45:10.060 mouth, furious denunciations and no empathy whatsoever, you think of David French. Now,

00:45:15.260 perhaps there's-

00:45:15.820 No, it's like Alex Jones and, and David French. That's, that's what you think.

00:45:20.220 Yeah. Well, you know, David French is, uh, has he written things that I'm sure trans activists

00:45:25.040 disagree with strongly? Yes. Does he hold opinions that they disagree with? Yes. Do I agree with

00:45:30.160 everything David French has ever written? No. But the idea that, you know, the New York Times is

00:45:35.140 going to turn into some sort of, you know, dangerous right-wing propaganda stirring up hate crimes

00:45:40.560 because of the presence of David French is probably one of the most absurd claims they possibly could

00:45:45.800 have made. And I think it gives away the game, which is that they're, they're not interested in

00:45:49.720 having a debate or discussion on this. They really think that the count of the argument or other

00:45:54.460 perspectives should not be heard and should not be seen. The New York Times is their territory,

00:45:59.020 not anybody else's. And that anybody who disagrees with the party line must be expunged and driven

00:46:04.420 out as quickly as possible. But it seems like Michael, this is like the, this is an important

00:46:10.360 moment for the times and so far they're handling it pretty well. Yeah, this is interesting. I think the

00:46:15.540 letter itself was evidence that something had changed at the times because previously what,

00:46:21.880 you know, in the, the last big controversy, which was the Tom Cotton op-ed, uh, sending the National

00:46:28.340 Guard to stop the rioting during 2020, uh, that controversy began as an internal revolt on the internal

00:46:38.520 chat rooms of the New York Times, uh, then leaked out as, uh, you know, a series of organized tweeting

00:46:46.240 by New York Times employees. And it resulted in the firing of the New York Times, uh, opinion editor,

00:46:52.860 James Bennett, after a day long struggle session in front of the entire staff. Uh, and you know,

00:47:00.400 then it led swiftly to Barry Weiss leaving the New York Times, a couple of other conservatives that were

00:47:06.020 involved in the op-ed page left as well. This looks like an internal revolt already failed. And so the

00:47:12.940 New York Times staffers went outside, recruited as many outside contributors as possible, and went to

00:47:19.600 GLAAD, an outside activist organization. And this was a mistake that the times, you know, institutionalists

00:47:26.920 really took advantage of by saying, well, GLAAD is an advocacy organization. We're a news organization.

00:47:32.640 Uh, in fact, the times rebels, I think, uh, handed an easy victory, uh, to the, the old school New York

00:47:42.040 Times staff that still wants to retain some legitimacy as a news organization. And we have to

00:47:47.960 be honest that the two or three stories that these activists are complaining about are really milquetoast

00:47:54.480 stuff. I mean, it just, you know, just raising questions, just giving examples of a detransitioner in

00:48:01.840 one space or a parent who was deceived by their school district in another case. But the, the

00:48:08.580 activists can't see it and they can't imagine themselves being wrong in the issue, right? They

00:48:13.300 just don't, you know, one of the arguments they give is that, well, gender transition surgery and

00:48:19.180 drugs have been accepted for decades. Well, one, it's not true that this has been accepted for decades,

00:48:25.920 especially puberty blockers. That's entirely why we're having this controversy. It's because this

00:48:31.300 is, this is new. And to just two decades of evidence, it would, would have said, if you were

00:48:37.400 just going by that, you'd say that we should still be doing lumbotomies, you know, 50 years after we

00:48:41.640 stopped doing that. Exactly. Modern medicine has advanced. All right, let me pause you right there.

00:48:45.140 I actually want to continue this, but we're going to squeeze in a quick break. Um, I find this a very

00:48:48.940 hopeful sign that maybe some of the pushback on what we're doing to these children is starting to take

00:48:53.820 hold. It's starting to work. So, uh, a note of optimism. All right, guys. So just a final question

00:49:01.860 on the, um, New York times thing as, as Rich Lowry would put it exit question to you. Um, what, uh,

00:49:08.880 does this signal a new era in the times is coverage, at least of the trans issue, because the way that

00:49:16.900 a paper like that covers this issue when it comes to children is important. The people we need to

00:49:22.100 convince that what they're doing to these kids is insane, is insane, are times readers. They're not

00:49:26.840 wall street journal readers. So does this signal a new era? Go ahead, Michael. It does. Um, you know,

00:49:34.000 three years ago, the times basically went on a pro trans campaign and did hundreds of stories,

00:49:40.580 you know, mainstreaming the issue. Uh, and now I think we're seeing blowback, uh, and we're seeing

00:49:48.000 a lot of center right, uh, and center left people, you know, suburban people confronting madness at

00:49:56.900 their local public school level. And they're demanding some way of understanding it. And the

00:50:02.420 times basically is meeting that demand with some sympathetic reporting that maybe this is getting

00:50:08.480 out of hand, that gender clinics are under-regulated, that the studies purporting to justify puberty

00:50:15.380 blockers or surgeries on minors are basically junk or non-existent and that European countries have

00:50:23.120 moved away from this. So I, I think, I think it is a change in times, but I do think it's demand driven

00:50:29.120 more than driven by the decision makers, you know, sudden growth of a conscience. Uh, I think,

00:50:37.060 I think the times is being dragged here by their readers, not, uh, not dragging the readers themselves.

00:50:42.200 And of course, Jim Garrity, there'll be no accountability for the damage already done.

00:50:48.680 No, I doubt that. I do think Michael's observation about the contrast between the way the New York

00:50:54.580 Times is handling this criticism versus the criticism of the Tom Cotton piece is a very sharp

00:51:00.460 and useful one. Uh, I always kind of wonder, and I've been thinking this back since, you know, when,

00:51:04.780 um, uh, the Atlantic magazine under Jeffrey Goldberg decided that Kevin Williamson was too shocking and

00:51:12.060 dangerous to have on their staff, who wants to run an organization where your employees can form a mob

00:51:18.440 and force you to change your decisions? You know, I thought the whole point you wanted to climb the

00:51:22.660 ladder and run an organization was you wanted to be the person in charge. You wanted to set the

00:51:26.580 direction. And if the New York Times wants to put out a more even handed coverage of young people who

00:51:32.740 choose to transition, that's their right. And it's not, you know, it's not going to have,

00:51:36.480 it's not GLAD's job to run the New York Times. It's not these outside activists and it's not some,

00:51:40.940 you know, entry-level copy editor's job either. The New York Times is going to cover this issue the

00:51:44.880 way it feels like it. So I do kind of feel like, I wonder if there's this reassertion of authority

00:51:49.260 and to say, well, you're free to feel that way. And we hope you appreciate our coverage,

00:51:53.860 but we're not going to change for you. And we're not going to bend over backwards just

00:51:56.780 because you've written an angry letter to us.

00:51:58.320 We've seen it happen. The Wall Street Journal did it when a bunch of their employees got upset about

00:52:03.520 Heather McDonald op-eds, which were spot on factually. Even at the journal, there was a

00:52:08.880 threatened walkout, et cetera. And the journal said what you just said, basically, we understand you

00:52:13.740 object. Bye. You don't have to work here. Take care. And then we saw Netflix reverse itself saying

00:52:20.360 we're, we are going to cover, we're going to take content from people. You may find controversial

00:52:25.020 people like Dave Chappelle. And if you don't like it, bye. Right. Spotify stood by Joe Rogan,

00:52:30.480 even though those morons, Harry and Megan tried to threaten them into pulling him because of his

00:52:36.300 COVID coverage. They decided to be the arbiters of what was disinformation on COVID. These two morons.

00:52:41.780 Anyway, Spotify stood up to them. I just, you know, little by little, we're seeing these left

00:52:47.460 leaning media organizations push back. They're finally getting it. It's like a little light bulb moment.

00:52:53.240 But I, it's like shoots of promise, right? That's how I'm feeling after all these years of like

00:52:58.920 these, this crazy ass wokeness that's driving us all insane. And people like you guys out there 1.00

00:53:04.660 fighting the good battle all, all the time. And me too. It's nice to see some of these people coming

00:53:10.060 over, you know, it's like the point is to win. It's not, it's not to keep the fight going. The point

00:53:15.720 is to win. And I see signs of winning. So I like that. Okay. Let's shift gears. Cause one thing we did

00:53:20.100 not win on is, um, restoring sanity when it comes to the CDC, the WHO, these organizations have taken

00:53:27.940 a massive hit to their credibility. And it's really damaging because when, when we do have

00:53:31.780 another pandemic in which we do need to listen to them, we won't, right? We want who, who would

00:53:36.340 listen to Rochelle Walensky on anything other than how to panic in a crisis. I would listen to her on

00:53:42.580 that. How do I do it? How do I work myself up into tears when giving congressional testimony?

00:53:47.060 So we learned this week that the WHO is abandoning its investigation into how COVID started.

00:53:57.200 Basically, as I understand it, the Chinese weren't cooperating. So bye. It's done. They're going to 1.00

00:54:04.320 give up. Like what we know is what we know. Peace out. Enjoy your next pandemic. So Michael, I'm thinking

00:54:10.820 this is going to be unsatisfactory to people like you, but no one's going to really complain much.

00:54:19.080 Listen, this was always going to be an uphill challenge. Um, I think right from the beginning,

00:54:25.220 when I, when Jim and I both began to suspect that a lab leak was at least possible, uh, a possible

00:54:33.060 origin of, of COVID, if not the probable one, I started writing, you know, it'll be hard for

00:54:38.880 big institutions to accept that something so globally disastrous, whether the disease itself

00:54:45.800 or the lockdowns that followed from it, the authoritarian health policies that came in its

00:54:52.020 wake. It'll be hard for people to accept that this could be the fault of a handful of people

00:54:58.180 whose names we could discover. Um, you know, it's very rare in history for a handful of people

00:55:03.860 to be the cause of death of, you know, potentially millions of people globally and the cause of

00:55:10.060 misery for billions more. Um, so it was always going to be uphill to get people to take the idea

00:55:16.580 of a human cause seriously. And, but the fact is China has almost made it obvious that it's human

00:55:25.060 caused with the way they've covered up and bumbled. They couldn't have had a more sympathetic

00:55:29.780 world health organization. China basically had appointed the president Tedros who investigated

00:55:35.620 them the first time with the intent of clearing them and found that he couldn't, but now, you know,

00:55:42.820 the who still can't get there and they're still referring back to the original sin of COVID, which

00:55:49.380 is we won't offend the Chinese, right? In the first weeks of the outbreak in Wuhan, the world health

00:55:56.920 organization refused to declare it a public health emergency, refused to look at the evidence that

00:56:03.080 the virus was airborne, which was already abundant. And they did so because they were trying not to

00:56:10.060 offend China, right? The basically China's bullying of international institutions is accepted by international 0.93

00:56:18.120 institutions. And, uh, they, what we see then is total dysfunction. I mean, the, the world health

00:56:26.360 organization is now worthless as an organization.

00:56:31.420 That's, and we need them. I mean, that's the problem, Jim, is that as much as we like to think COVID was the

00:56:36.000 last pandemic, there's going to be another one. It could be intentional, could be unintentional, but we no longer

00:56:41.680 have public health authorities in this country who the majority of the country trusts.

00:56:47.960 I was going to say, Megan, in the last, you know, two, three years, you see the likes of, um, Bill Gates come out and

00:56:53.640 say, well, we need a better early warning system for pandemic outbreaks. Well, we already have it. I mean,

00:56:58.760 most doctors are pretty quick to share information when they say, Hey, I've got a patient with these

00:57:03.340 strange symptoms. It's not matching anything I'm familiar with. What do you guys think this is?

00:57:07.600 The difference is this one was in China. If COVID-19 had first jumped into a human being 0.55

00:57:12.440 in France or Canada or Brazil, or almost anywhere else on earth, the reaction would have been faster and

00:57:19.560 better. And we were basically held back by a, both first a local government in Wuhan and then a larger

00:57:25.000 national, uh, Chinese government that wanted to insist it wasn't that bad and spent, depending on

00:57:30.840 when the first infection occurred, anywhere from three weeks to six weeks, insisting this is not

00:57:36.100 contagious. There's no evidence of human to human spread, even while doctors were catching it from

00:57:41.920 their patients. Right now, if we'd had further, if you're going to try to stop a pandemic, you got to do it as

00:57:47.220 early as possible. The more it spreads, the harder it gets. And oh, by the way, China did not restrict

00:57:51.880 travel. It had kept having international travel flights leaving from Wuhan all around the world

00:57:56.920 for the first couple of weeks of this pandemic. We didn't have a chance because the Chinese government 1.00

00:58:01.040 was too secretive. And that's even assuming this was a natural outbreak from a, uh, animal at a wet

00:58:07.040 market to a person instead of a lab leak. Now, look, I, I am, you know, but I want to point out way back

00:58:12.740 when Michael sent me this video, this guy who was speculating about, uh, Wuhan being the home of not

00:58:18.400 one, but two national laboratories that were, happened to be researching coronaviruses found in

00:58:23.780 bats. And oh, by the way, we now know that they were doing gain of function research, which is where

00:58:28.060 you take naturally existing coronaviruses found in bats and try to make them more virulent and more

00:58:33.580 contagious. Not one, but two. That's pretty amazing, pretty astounding coincidence there. And most of us

00:58:39.160 look at this. And from day one, we're like, well, God, that's an amazing coincidence. And the first

00:58:44.740 outbreak was just down the road. What are the odds of that happening? Um, now we, you know, we basically

00:58:50.680 spent, and from the very beginning that Wu, the, the world health organization, that first

00:58:56.060 investigation spent like an hour or two in the Wuhan Institute of Virology. They spent like a day or two

00:59:01.180 in there. They said that even during this, the Chinese scientists and virologists were extraordinarily

00:59:05.740 combative, extraordinarily uncooperative. There are still reams of data that the Chinese have not

00:59:10.940 turned over to the Wu's request. I mean, in my mind, that's effectively a guilty plea. That's

00:59:16.140 basically saying we have something to hide. I suppose it's possible that it's some other factor

00:59:21.520 that like what was going on at the Wuhan Institute of Virology was somehow connected to biological weapons

00:59:26.660 research or something like that. Um, that's not to say that COVID-19 was a biological weapon, but the

00:59:31.880 idea that there was something going on inside that laboratory that they did not want the rest of the

00:59:36.360 world to see. But in the end, the entire world, you know, from the moment, the U S intelligence

00:59:41.760 committee community under Biden was directed to find the origins and came back with a report that

00:59:47.920 basically said, nah, we don't know. We, we looked at it. We have the, we give us a billion dollars of,

00:59:53.820 of the year. We have unprecedented signals intercepts ability. We have unprecedented experts. We have the

00:59:59.540 best technology in the whole wide world. We just can't figure it out. The whole wide world is going

01:00:03.480 to have to just accept it as a mystery. There was a letter to the editor from someone who early in the

01:00:09.780 controversy who basically said that, uh, you have to stop Trump saying this could be a lab leak because

01:00:16.020 this will lead to war with China. And I suppose if you believe that the inevitable, imagine we found

01:00:22.040 the smoking gun, imagine you found incovertible evidence, the memo from one virologist to another at the

01:00:27.880 Wuhan Institute that said, Oh geez, I dropped a vial. I inhaled it. I coughed on my wife. I went to the

01:00:34.680 market. I was touching everything. I probably started a pandemic. Let's imagine we found that

01:00:39.120 kind of smoking gun evidence. Then yeah, there'd be a heck of a lot of rage around the world at the

01:00:43.860 Chinese government. Deservedly so. And maybe that rage would turn violent. Maybe you'd see protests 1.00

01:00:49.620 outside embassies or, or something that would really get ugly and could lead to open conflict between

01:00:54.800 China and the rest of the world. I don't know something that's likely it would lead to, to all

01:00:58.420 out war, but it would get up. You know, it would be bad. I think there are some people who believe that

01:01:03.400 the lie is easier, that the lie is better, but the lie is safer.

01:01:07.260 This is, this is a perfect segue. This is a perfect segue because the question I have now is, are we doing

01:01:12.800 the same thing on balloon gate? Right? Because the latest reporting on balloon gate first, there was the

01:01:18.000 Chinese balloon that we eventually shot down over the South, the ocean off of South Carolina. And we

01:01:23.060 had three more, which may or may not have been balloons, but they're definitely unmanned aerial

01:01:27.100 objects. Shot three of them down over the past week. Four things shot out of the sky over the past

01:01:31.500 week. No word from the president at all. And now today the reporting takes a turn. Well, it came out

01:01:37.320 Tuesday in the Washington post saying not to worry. We tracked that spy balloon. The first one, the big

01:01:44.060 one from China from its launch. We were on it guys. Fear not. America was on it. We tracked it for

01:01:50.460 nearly a week before it reached us airspace and suggesting that the flight path, it was meant to

01:01:57.700 go over Guam. It was going to, it was headed for Guam. Fear not, not United States, not Montana and the

01:02:04.240 nuclear site. It was meant to go over Guam, but it took an unexpected Northern turn. And now the U S is

01:02:09.280 looking into the possibility that China never intended for it to fly over the continental

01:02:14.340 United States. It may have just been pushed by strong winds. It was definitely not going over

01:02:21.840 the minute man three launch facilities in Montana, where we have intercontinental ballistic missile

01:02:28.260 stored over 13,800 square miles of central Montana, making it the biggest new complex of nuclear arms in

01:02:35.600 the Western hemisphere. It wasn't that. And when I read this, I think they don't, we don't want to

01:02:40.980 have a fight. We're afraid of China. We were already involved in Ukraine. We can't have another big 0.82

01:02:46.020 fight. We can let the proxy war with Russia. We don't have the bandwidth for this right now. And so

01:02:50.520 it was a weather balloon. It was meant for Guam. We're good. Pay no attention to the three

01:02:56.120 additional balloons that came over. We have no idea where those came from either. We don't hear from

01:02:59.200 the president, just be the mushroom. Let us feed you the shit in the basement, take it and grow. 1.00

01:03:05.300 I mean, it's a preposterous story because we saw the balloon, you know, we already had reporting that

01:03:11.860 officials saw the balloon as it was headed toward the Aleutian islands. So they had ample time where

01:03:17.680 this was known about, at least by the military. And if that's true, then either the military didn't

01:03:23.300 report this all the way up the chain to the commander in chief, or the plan was, we're just

01:03:29.800 going to let this thing traverse the entire continental United States and send Tony Blinken,

01:03:35.280 our secretary of state to his, his meeting with the Chinese as if nothing had happened, except

01:03:40.920 shoot. Someone actually saw and photographed the balloon over Billings, Montana. Well, now,

01:03:47.460 now people are calling for us to shoot it down. So finally we're going to shoot it down.

01:03:52.000 And it is, it is the most backwards, fearful. I mean, you can detect the sweat off of administration

01:04:04.160 officials when they're talking about this. They don't know what to say to us because they're,

01:04:07.700 they are obviously intending not to give us the whole truth. And, you know, and by the way,

01:04:13.600 it does not look good if now they're saying these three other objects probably aren't foreign in origin.

01:04:21.300 They're probably not Chinese anything. There's some kind of other non-threatening balloon. 0.99

01:04:26.100 So you're saying that now we're just going up and shooting, you know, $400,000 missiles at

01:04:32.460 what space, you know, garbage in the science projects. I mean, yeah, it's like, this is absolutely

01:04:42.700 backwards and it's already caused the diplomatic incident. You know, the, the trip was already

01:04:48.440 canceled with China. China's already starting to shoot its own, you know, things out of the sky, 0.97

01:04:54.440 just to prove that it can do the same thing that we can do. Uh, but the administration looks like

01:04:59.420 fools and unless they come out with a better explanation, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm absolutely

01:05:04.120 fearful that they're just trying to like hide the mess under a rug because you're right. They,

01:05:08.780 they don't have the bandwidth for it right now. They're overwhelmed with what's happening in Europe.

01:05:13.780 And, you know, we're, we're, we're almost $20 billion behind on weapons deliveries to Taiwan.

01:05:20.120 I mean, like when, when people look at our actual preparedness in the Pacific and now we're finding

01:05:26.480 out that we're not even prepared to defend our own airspace from some Chinese experimental airship.

01:05:32.980 I mean, that's a huge problem. I mean, that's like a, that is a cold war level problem,

01:05:40.660 a Sputnik level event. You know, I was joking the other day that the best case scenario for us all

01:05:46.380 right now on these balloons or whatever they are is, you know, the scene in Jaws where they see the

01:05:52.480 fin and they send everybody, Chief Brody sends the boat out there and it turns out to be the two

01:05:56.580 teenagers like playing a joke, right? That's our best case scenario. Now that it is a kid's science

01:06:02.660 project, some kids, some teenagers who are really smart in science are just messing with us now in

01:06:06.520 the wake of the first balloon. Um, but it doesn't appear to be because when you listen to the pilot,

01:06:11.120 there's actually, it released the audio over the weekend of the pilots encountering the objects.

01:06:15.920 And, uh, here's the one. It's kind of interesting. I just short clip of the pilot describing when he

01:06:20.460 saw this object over Lake Huron, which was the fourth of four that got shot down. Listen to this.

01:06:25.620 This is baffling the pilots, Jim Garrity, which is disconcerting. And you've been pointing out,

01:06:44.520 I think better than anybody. Wouldn't it be great to hear from the president? Wouldn't it be nice

01:06:48.920 to, to get some sort of an update from him? Yes. Uh, reportedly president Biden will be addressing

01:06:54.320 the country on these matters in the near future next day or so. And hopefully he'll stay on topic

01:06:59.560 and not bring up any old stories about corn pop. Um, what I, I do, by the way, that audio,

01:07:04.900 Wait, I lost you there. Not bring up any old what? A corn pop, you know, and any old stories of,

01:07:10.440 you know, my dad used to tell me, you know, um, or that audio from the pilots does sound like the

01:07:16.100 first act of a sci-fi invasion movie, right? That, you know, we're at a base. We're not sure

01:07:21.180 what that is. That's, you know, a little bit unnerving. Um, kind of echoing what Michael said,

01:07:26.300 I, I'm not, if the Billings Gazette had not had a photographer in the right place at the right time,

01:07:31.620 it's entirely possible these past two weeks would have proceeded completely differently.

01:07:35.700 And I do think this is something of a mini Sputnik moment. We are used to being protected by,

01:07:40.800 uh, not only a, the, you know, what we believe is the finest military in the world,

01:07:44.340 the most technologically advanced military in the world, NORAD, which does more than track Santa

01:07:48.980 every Christmas, uh, and two large oceans. We're not used to knowing, oh, there's a foreign, 1.00

01:07:54.320 there's a hostile foreign countries, spy surveillance, uh, device floating over your

01:07:59.300 heads, America, nothing to worry about. Um, it certainly seems like the administration plan was

01:08:04.280 not to tell anyone, uh, as this was occurring. And now this claim that this, oh, it was really aimed

01:08:09.360 for Guam. It's amazing how the air currents took it over the illusion islands, which is where we

01:08:14.920 have one of our most strategic located airfields and bases for dealing with a threat from the

01:08:19.080 Pacific. The only missile defense facility in Western, in Eastern Alaska, which is our only

01:08:24.240 shot to shoot down an ICBM from North Korea or say any other country in Asia that has a nuclear weapon.

01:08:30.180 Uh, then it went down through, as you mentioned, the ICBMs in Montana, then went down to Missouri,

01:08:35.920 which is where the B-2 bombers are. And then finally back out across the, it's amazing how it

01:08:41.180 just happened to go near all of these key U.S. military facilities that the Chinese might be

01:08:45.620 interested in. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's just remarkable. It's really lucky break for the

01:08:50.020 Chinese on that one. Um, right. Exactly. They should have more errant balloons. 1.00

01:08:53.800 You know, this is a, look, for the, for the last six years during the Trump administration,

01:09:03.600 Russia was the root of all evil. Everybody was secretly a, uh, agent of the Russian government 0.95

01:09:09.380 and all that stuff. And, and, you know, uh, and then Biden takes office and all of a sudden he

01:09:14.040 starts talking about, he wants a stable and predictable relationship with Russia.

01:09:18.000 It almost turned on a dime. All of a sudden we were not eager to, you know, there was a little

01:09:21.960 bit of, we're going to enact more sanctions and all that.

01:09:23.800 But Biden had his sanction, had his summit with Putin and talked about how they wanted

01:09:28.160 stability and predictability and how, you know, uh, Biden said he believed Putin really

01:09:33.400 understood and wanted the same thing. And then Putin invaded Ukraine. Uh, go figure the

01:09:38.200 octogenarian did not accurately assess the intentions of the former KGB colonel. Um, you

01:09:43.820 add, so I think with China, again, Biden likes to talk a tough game, but when push comes to

01:09:49.180 shot, I mean, look, think about it, that balloon or that spy craft was over our territory.

01:09:54.200 And until it was photographed, the plan was for the secretary of state to go and have a summit in

01:09:59.040 Beijing. And I think that in the end, the cancellation of that summit was out of a fear

01:10:02.700 that this was going to all break while, uh, Blinken was over in Beijing and it was going to look very

01:10:07.480 bad. Uh, now the interesting question will be, when is, you know, Blinken going to go back?

01:10:11.840 This subsequent messaging up, it just got blown off course. We're not even sure the Chinese meant

01:10:17.840 to do this. Sounds to me like, boy, we'd really like to have that summit again. We'd really like

01:10:22.720 to have normal relationships with China, even though on front after front, it's very clear

01:10:27.440 China's not that interested in having normal relationships with us.

01:10:30.900 Yeah. Guam, Guam, by the way, I've got to ask you, did you see this soundbite? Speaking of NORAD

01:10:37.180 from Corrine Jean-Pierre earlier this week, this is the soundbite of the week bar none. Listen,

01:10:42.580 why is, why is the American military shooting something out of the sky over Canada? Because

01:10:50.220 it's part of a NORAD. There is a, the NORAD is part of like a part of a, it's a, it's a,

01:10:56.460 what you call a coalition, a consortium, a pact, exactly. And so that's why we were able to do

01:11:01.600 that again. We didn't do it on our own. We did it in, in, uh, in, uh, clearly in, in, in,

01:11:07.020 in step with, uh, Canada. I mean, yeah, the, the NOR in NORAD is for North America. Uh, it would be

01:11:17.840 not possible for us to have an effective air defense system that only protected America.

01:11:22.860 And we said to the Canadians, you guys have hockey sticks, you guys have poutine,

01:11:26.800 you guys are on your own. We're not going to know, obviously for reasons of geography

01:11:30.500 and the longstanding. The NORAD, the NORAD, we worked in conjunction with

01:11:36.340 Canada, which I said the other day, sounds like, you know, a bad disease you get when 1.00

01:11:41.000 you're in college and you're a little too free and footloose.

01:11:45.560 You know, the, you know, the white house has had a bad week when Justin Trudeau looks like

01:11:50.160 the firmest, most standup and toughest leader in the Western world. I mean, uh, he's the one

01:11:57.440 who kind of came out right away when that, when that object was shot down and explained like

01:12:02.940 that he won't tolerate any violation of Canada's, uh, sovereign airspace. Um, and probably not

01:12:10.760 Canada's either. Uh, so right. Not Canada. It's the best thing. I'm only referring to it as 0.66

01:12:16.760 Canada from now on. Um, while we're on the subject of people, not necessarily from Canada,

01:12:22.600 but who have lived in Canada, you don't get to discuss fun topics like Harry and Megan on the

01:12:27.620 national review podcast, the editors, which is well worth everybody's times to eye time. I love it.

01:12:31.520 I listen to it every week. Comes out twice a week. I would like more. Um, but Megan and Harry,

01:12:37.260 uh, we've all been wondering how did their PR tour go? How did the spare, uh, autobiography

01:12:42.560 help Harry's approval rating? How did the Netflix documentary do for them? Well, you know, it's bad

01:12:48.540 when your PR tour lands you a little skit, a great skit on South park, which did the following bit on

01:12:56.960 those two. You can hear their fake voices, uh, in this little skit, which I have to show you some of

01:13:01.080 watches. It has been several months now since our beloved queen has died. All Canadians are

01:13:06.880 finding it hard to go on all Canadians. That is, except for our first guests, the prince and his

01:13:11.140 wife. Thanks for having us on the show. It's so awesome to be. It's great. So let me start with

01:13:23.940 you, Sam. You've lived a life with the Royal family. You've had everything handed to you,

01:13:27.280 but you say your life has been hard and now you've written all about it in your new book.

01:13:30.740 When? Yes, that's right, friend. You say my wife and I are totally like you should write a book

01:13:35.860 because your family's like stupid and then so are like journalists. So you hate journalists.

01:13:41.080 That's right. And now you wrote a book that reports on the lives of the Royal family.

01:13:44.080 Right. So you're a journalist. Well, I just think some people might say that your Instagram-loving

01:13:50.280 bitch wife actually doesn't want her privacy. How dare you, sir? My Instagram-loving bitch wife 1.00

01:13:55.520 has always wanted her privacy. And you know what else? To hell with Canada. We are leaving.

01:14:04.480 And then there's a little like signs with them going through all these countries saying privacy,

01:14:09.820 privacy, and everybody, just the disdain for them. They've jumped the shark. Garrity,

01:14:14.080 I saw you laughing during the bit. You tell me, is it over for them in terms of their hopes for being

01:14:18.600 the next Barack and Michelle Obama or, you know, political leaders or influencers here in the

01:14:23.740 United States? All right, Megan, this country was founded by men who were willing to shoot other 1.00

01:14:28.960 people in the head so that they wouldn't have to care about what the British Royal family was doing.

01:14:34.380 So you're right. We don't talk about the British Royals very much on the editors or write about

01:14:38.360 them at all. I do see them as roughly akin to the 1980s game War Games because they desperately want

01:14:44.500 attention that even if you denounce them, you're giving them the attention that they want. So

01:14:49.820 much like that talk about nuclear war, the only way to win is not to play. So I try not to think

01:14:55.540 about it as much as possible. I am pleased to see that more and more of the public, not just here,

01:14:59.840 but apparently around the world, is coming around to my position.

01:15:02.840 I feel this is a pronouncement, MBD, that they have jumped the shark. They are not beloved. And her

01:15:10.400 hopes of running for president, reported hopes, are all but dashed. That's not happening. When South

01:15:16.780 Park turns on you, there's no recovery. Right. There was a moment where it seemed like

01:15:22.580 Harry and Megan were going to become the latest thing that Americans polarize over, where

01:15:27.560 all conservatives are critical of them. And so all liberals have to embrace them. But now it's like

01:15:32.940 they're just so cringeworthy and so unsympathetic in a fundamental way that like they're of no use

01:15:42.340 to anyone, but they're overpaid publicists. Right. I mean, and the kind of grifters trying to sell,

01:15:49.080 you know, kitsch attached to their names. You know, the whole result of their giant

01:15:56.880 publicity campaign has been to raise the popularity of Prince William and Kate in the

01:16:03.460 United Kingdom. Right. I mean, they didn't, they, you know, they may do, you know, some tiny bit of

01:16:09.460 damage to Charles, but I think even his popularity has gone up in the United Kingdom as his coronation

01:16:14.440 is coming up soon because people feel, feel bad for him that, right. That this, this child and her,

01:16:21.480 his monster wife get to say whatever they like about the Royal family and the Royal family has all sorts

01:16:27.400 of restrictions, formal and informal about how much they can fire back and defend themselves.

01:16:32.680 And by being quiet, they are subtly, subtly winning the game. And it's amazing that Harry and Markle

01:16:39.100 and whoever is advising them can't figure this out yet. Um, yeah, but they, they can't. And I'm sure,

01:16:45.720 you know, there's too much money to be made by the agents and other publicists for Harry and Markle

01:16:52.740 to shut up. I mean, Harry is already talking about coming out with another book, but what does he have

01:16:58.200 to say other than poor me? Right. Only stories about the Royal family do well for them. It's just

01:17:06.220 their connection to the Royals that makes them interesting. Nothing beyond that, which is yet

01:17:10.360 another reason why King Charles should not include them at the coronation. Can you imagine sidling

01:17:15.560 up to them at the coronation? As if you're a member of the Royal family, you wouldn't want to say

01:17:19.380 anything. You'd be terrified that that pen sticking out of the pocket is recording you live, the little

01:17:23.660 flower coming out of the dress. No, right. You know that the whole thing is a recon mission for the

01:17:28.040 next book and the next Netflix project. And by the way, they've insulted at least half of the British 0.56

01:17:32.680 people by saying everybody who voted for breakfast is racist. So just out of protection for his fellow

01:17:37.860 countrymen, King Charles should not allow this, but he's going to, according to the reports,

01:17:41.240 we'll see. They'll go to, they've never seen a camera they don't want to be in front of.

01:17:44.840 Uh, it was a mistake. I've said it before. I'll say it again. I'll be there,

01:17:47.860 not necessarily physically, but I'll be booing from whatever spot. See, you don't get to see

01:17:51.760 rich Lowry. He leaves such goodness on the floor. Look at these interesting comments. You guys are

01:17:55.760 able to make on pop culture and figures in it. Markle, Markle will be there. She wants the drama.

01:18:01.420 I mean, she, she wants the big fight with the Royal family and, uh, and you know, in some way she's

01:18:08.140 going to get it. This is going to be what they do for the rest of their lives. And maybe every five or 10

01:18:12.360 years, the media will turn back and, you know, kind of dip in and see if this, you know, this

01:18:17.640 lemon has any more juice in it to squeeze. But, uh, I think they've gotten the worst of it.

01:18:23.860 You know, um, you know, they've made, I think the big payday that they're going to make, uh,

01:18:29.640 until they're, you know, until the divorce, right. I mean, until the emotional divorce, when she has,

01:18:35.360 you know, she's separated him from all the traditions of his family, separated him from his family.

01:18:40.080 Uh, and he's going to increasingly have less interest to her over time, unless the drama is

01:18:46.500 kept up. So money's been turned off and the Royal connection is going to be turned off and well done

01:18:52.820 MBD, both starting and ending the segment on a lemon. We appreciate that. That's why you're a

01:18:58.680 professional guys. So fun to talk to you. Thank you so much for being here. Jim Garrity, Michael

01:19:03.180 Brendan Doherty. You guys are the best go check out NR plus it is well worth the time coming up next.

01:19:09.200 We get to the latest from the Alec Murdoch trial with somebody who's been following it very,

01:19:14.460 very closely, massive ruling against the prosecution yesterday. This is a big one.

01:19:22.200 The state is expected to rest its case this week in the double murder trial of disgraced

01:19:27.540 South Carolina attorney, Alec Murdoch. Murdoch is accused of killing his wife, Maggie and their

01:19:33.020 youngest son, Paul, who was 22 at the time at their home on June 7th, 2021. If convicted Murdoch

01:19:39.880 faces 30 years to life in prison. Last week, testimony of Alec's financial crimes, uh, was

01:19:45.940 allowed to be brought into evidence, excuse me, as potential motive for the killings. His life was

01:19:51.420 imploding. He was under enormous stress. And the belief by the prosecutors is he killed his family,

01:19:55.800 uh, two of, of members of his family in order to create sympathy for him. This week brought

01:20:02.120 additional bombshell evidence, including an interview from August of 2021 in which Alec

01:20:07.000 Murdoch is confronted and asked point blank. If he committed the murders, it's very clear. He thought

01:20:11.380 he was manipulating the police in the days and weeks after the murders. And now we are learning

01:20:15.900 very clearly the police were onto him and we're not being manipulated at all. Joining us now to discuss

01:20:22.380 the latest is Peter Tragos. Peter's been listening to the trial every day. He's been covering it

01:20:26.460 closely on his YouTube show called the lawyer, you know, he's also managing partner of a law firm

01:20:31.760 in Florida. Peter, thanks for being here. Hey, thanks for having me. Okay. So can we start with

01:20:37.740 yesterday? The judge issued a devastating ruling toward the prosecution. I mean, look, there's,

01:20:44.620 they still have a good case, but this bizarre thing happened with Alec Murdoch after the murders

01:20:50.780 in which somebody shot him on the side of the road when he was allegedly pulled over, like fixing a

01:20:57.220 car and the, but the person only skimmed his head and he didn't die. It turned out this was allegedly

01:21:06.320 his drug dealer and employee and longtime contact. And Alec Murdoch has admitted that this was arranged

01:21:13.020 by Alec. He claims because he wanted his, his surviving son Buster to get an insurance payout.

01:21:18.860 Many believe this was just yet another scheme to create sympathy for him and lead people to believe

01:21:23.860 that there was this mass killer on the loose, trying to kill off Murdoch's. And, you know,

01:21:28.060 he came within an inch of his life. In any event, he's now admitted he was behind it, but the jury,

01:21:32.680 the judge ruled, we'll never hear about that because it would be too prejudicial and it doesn't

01:21:37.140 really go to motive. And it really just kind of makes him look bad as opposed to makes it more

01:21:41.100 likely he committed the murders or not. And yet there was a glimmer of light for the prosecution

01:21:46.640 on this. Um, it was, I don't know if it was late in the day yesterday, but I think it was where

01:21:51.440 there's a question about whether after getting this great ruling, the defense, they opened the door

01:21:57.360 by touching on this subject, which would be a massive error. So can you get us up to speed on

01:22:03.620 what what's going down here? Sure. I mean, this case has so many different angles to it that make

01:22:09.680 it just more than they would even write in a movie because it's so unbelievable. And this side of the

01:22:14.040 road incident might take the cake, setting it up with your drug dealer, getting shot, making up a

01:22:20.100 story, talking to a sketch artist, and then eventually not very long after just admitting

01:22:24.260 you made the whole thing up. And that was not going to come in, which I think would have been great

01:22:29.520 for the defense because when you realize that he's capable of doing something like this and lying

01:22:33.940 straight to law enforcement's face, then you're probably going to think he's very likely going

01:22:38.940 to do that in other cases where someone may have died, um, at his hands potentially. And the judge

01:22:44.840 said it was a bridge too far. The financial stuff came in as potential motive for the murders.

01:22:49.280 This was a bridge too far until the defense did in fact open the door. The judge clarified his order

01:22:54.880 this morning. That door is open. How far the prosecution is going to walk through that door.

01:23:00.320 We still don't know as they haven't called the witnesses, um, to that case. And I've heard they

01:23:04.480 are not going to call Curtis Eddie Smith, who is the person involved, the drug dealer who apparently

01:23:09.800 Alec Murdoch was paying $50,000 a month for pills, but instead they're going to try to get it in through

01:23:15.400 the law enforcement officer who did multiple interviews, did that investigation and who eventually Alec

01:23:20.240 Murdoch admitted that he lied about the entire thing too. Seems like the defense and the

01:23:24.860 prosecution are working together to try to streamline this story, but it is going to come

01:23:29.320 in front of the jury in more ways than kind of the cryptic way it already has through Maggie's sister

01:23:34.100 and, uh, through the last agent, Owen, the lead investigator on the case, they both kind of

01:23:38.780 mentioned and talked about it, but it was kind of vague. And the judge said in order for the jury to

01:23:42.560 not be misled and to get the whole story, the prosecution now is allowed to talk about it. And I

01:23:47.420 gotta be honest, the defense didn't look that upset about it. So maybe they are going to try to use

01:23:51.480 this to their advantage as they have with a lot of the other prosecution evidence.

01:23:55.800 How, how would this be? I thought it was a massive ruling for them, the defense and getting this

01:24:00.180 kept out. I mean, I hear if I'm a juror and I hear not only did he allegedly kill his wife and

01:24:04.380 his son, but a couple of months later he tried to arrange his own bogus, you know, alleged killing

01:24:09.420 on the side of the road. This is what he does. He gets in trouble and he tries to create sympathy

01:24:13.680 for himself. Um, only when it comes to his life, he protects it. You know, he's quick, quick to take the

01:24:19.440 life of family members in order to preserve himself. But this is obviously orchestrated to just look like

01:24:26.220 an attempt on his life. And his story about, I was just going to get the suicide. I was going to,

01:24:30.040 I was going to get the, um, insurance policy for my son is obvious BS because if this guy wanted to

01:24:35.100 kill him, he would have fired a second shot. It was very clear to the shooter that Alec Murdoch was not

01:24:40.200 dead. So it's like that, that whole story of, Oh, I was just being this altruistic guy trying to get

01:24:44.680 buster an insurance policy. That's never going to fly. So this was a devastating ruling for the

01:24:50.080 prosecution. It wasn't a good ruling for them. Why would the defense open the door? What did they do?

01:24:54.160 What did they say in front of the jury that led the judge to think about reversing this?

01:24:58.560 So the very clear intent, I think the defense has to potentially open the door based on their

01:25:02.460 questions yesterday, crossing agent Owen is to provide an alternate killer. Uh, Eddie was apparently

01:25:09.280 skimming the money that Alec was giving him for the drugs. And this is all according to the defense

01:25:13.960 attorneys testifying during cross-examination, which they're allowed to do. So that's fair game,

01:25:17.620 but they have asked very pointed questions about certain drug gangs and drug deals and skimming the

01:25:22.660 money and how they're a very dangerous gang and how Alec Murdoch has even prosecuted this gang and

01:25:28.480 how Eddie was stealing money without Alec Murdoch knowing. And Alec Murdoch was the one that they were

01:25:34.200 going to come after. And they weren't worried because they knew they were going to get paid because

01:25:37.520 everybody knows the Murdoch name apparently in this small town, really statewide probably.

01:25:42.480 And that seems to be their intent.

01:25:44.800 Wait a minute, wait a minute, but let me ask you something, Peter.

01:25:46.040 Isn't, didn't Murdoch admit, he's already admitted that he set this up, right?

01:25:51.180 The suicide.

01:25:52.820 Yeah.

01:25:53.940 Yes. But they're saying those gang members came and killed Maggie and Paul, Alec's wife and son.

01:26:00.860 They're trying to point the finger at the drug dealers as potential killers, um, for the Moselle

01:26:06.660 incident that he's on trial for. Now the murder trial, I know it can be hard to keep track.

01:26:09.640 What are we here on trial for? We've heard about a boat case. We've heard about financial crimes.

01:26:13.640 We're going to hear about a side of the road incident. And we've also, of course,

01:26:16.400 heard a little bit about a murder that took place at Moselle.

01:26:19.600 So you're saying it helps, it potentially helps the defense to have the testimonial come in

01:26:24.560 about the drug dealer who he hired to allegedly shoot him. It helps Alec Murdoch because even though

01:26:31.740 it will come in that Alec arranged that whole thing, it introduces this sketchy character into the

01:26:37.720 jury's narrative who was connected with drugs and potentially bad guys. And so it's good for

01:26:43.100 the defense, even though Alec did this ridiculous thing and they're going to know Alec put him up to

01:26:46.680 it. Um, it shows Alec was connected with nefarious characters.

01:26:51.420 That's, I think their goal. And I, you and I sit here and we think how wild this is and what a liar

01:26:56.900 he is and how bad he seems to be of a guy. The defense is basically willing to stipulate that

01:27:01.220 he's a liar. They even said it yesterday in court. You want us to stipulate that he's a liar and not go

01:27:04.940 through all this. And the prosecution was like, Oh, that sounds good. If you'll stipulate that he's

01:27:08.180 a liar, but they want to go into this evidence just to hear how horrible it actually was.

01:27:12.320 And now he was able to do it with a straight face and no issue. And again, the defense is also going

01:27:16.300 to argue right after this fake suicide incident, he went to rehab. That's when he came to that's

01:27:22.000 when stuff started changing for him. But I mean, it definitely does not look good for him in this

01:27:26.600 case at all with all of these other bad acts coming in.

01:27:29.160 What do you think was the biggest testimony we got this week? I know they introduced some

01:27:36.420 police interrogation tapes that we had never seen before. It definitely seemed like the cops knew

01:27:41.340 early on he had changed outfits on the day of the murder and that he wasn't necessarily being

01:27:46.360 forthcoming about that. They showed him the Snapchat video, his son, Paul, a murder victim,

01:27:53.240 one of the two had taken in which you can hear Alex voice. They seem to know Alex was guilty or

01:28:01.320 at least a suspect early on. But what stood out to you is like the most interesting piece of

01:28:06.500 evidence introduced this week. So we're talking this week that the biggest piece of evidence is

01:28:10.700 definitely that video that puts him at the scene at eight forty four, which is right around when the

01:28:14.860 murders occurred. But this week to me and I'm on an island a little bit talking about this case

01:28:18.920 because, you know, as a lawyer looking at our criminal justice system, beyond a reasonable

01:28:23.440 doubt is important and prosecutors need to be held to that standard. And this was one of the worst

01:28:27.520 investigations I've ever seen for SLED. Now, why that happened? Who knows? Alex Connections.

01:28:32.360 Was it a good old boys club where they try not to let it happen or did they just drop the ball?

01:28:36.140 I don't know. But the most important evidence this week was from the lead investigator.

01:28:39.700 I think Owen was his last name. And during the cross-examination, they basically went through the

01:28:45.100 entire defense's theory of the case, how they really didn't do anything that they were supposed

01:28:51.240 to. In this case, they didn't protect the crime scene. People were walking through it. There was law

01:28:55.180 enforcement bloody footsteps throughout. They didn't search the house appropriately. They just kind of

01:28:59.940 walked through and didn't gather any real evidence. They didn't search the mom's house, which was his

01:29:04.040 entire alibi. He said he was at the mom's house when the murders occurred. They never searched it.

01:29:08.560 He was cooperating fully with them. They had this video where you mentioned he had different clothes

01:29:14.740 on. That seems really important to you or I, right? So it would be important to try to find those

01:29:18.700 clothes, right? We find out they never did anything to try to find those clothes. They never asked where

01:29:22.800 those clothes were. They never looked for those clothes. Yeah, they never found them, but that's

01:29:27.220 because they never looked for them. And when we talk about the missing weapons, they didn't walk the 16

01:29:32.640 minute drive from Moselle where the murders occurred to the mom's house in Alameda. They dropped the ball

01:29:37.720 left and right. And even so far as to say, they thought the white shirt that we all know now has

01:29:43.700 no blood basically and no DNA on it. An expert said there was blood spatter. The chief lead

01:29:49.340 investigator told the grand jury there was blood spatter to indict Alec Murdoch. Now we know confirmed

01:29:54.500 by state witnesses, there was no blood spatter on that shirt, which is why it seems like they've kind

01:29:59.620 of switched their angle to, he must have changed because for a long time in this investigation,

01:30:04.240 they thought that white shirt he was wearing that looked so clean to the naked eye had blood spatter

01:30:09.500 on it to prove that he must've been close enough to pull the trigger to get the blood or biological

01:30:13.860 material on his shirt. The investigation was, was pretty piss poor. If you ask me,

01:30:18.100 I, this, the sled, uh, maintenance of the murder scene in the wake of the crime was absolutely

01:30:25.660 abhorrent that they've done a good job of bringing that out even through the state's witnesses.

01:30:29.260 And you raise a good question about why, why is that? Because Alec Murdoch is a very,

01:30:33.640 very well-connected man. His family basically ran this town for a century and, um, there might've

01:30:40.080 been a, Oh, you know, let's take care of him and not suspecting him. But soon they got onto his trail

01:30:47.240 and we're hearing some of that in the examinations of Alec Murdoch hasn't taken the stand, but they,

01:30:52.720 he did give interviews. And this one was from August 11th, 2021. That's, uh, two months after the

01:30:58.440 murders where they're asking him about the Snapchat video that his son took that he,

01:31:03.660 Alec clearly did not know that his son had taken the Snapchat video of him. There's two videos.

01:31:07.680 There's one in which Alec is, uh, I'm sorry, Paul, the murder victim is handling dogs and you can

01:31:12.880 clearly hear Alec in the background. It places Alec at the dog kennels where the murders took place,

01:31:17.260 something Alec denied he'd ever went to on the day of the murder. And, and then there's a, um,

01:31:21.800 Snapchat video that shows, um, it shows Alec Murdoch with his son on scene the day of the

01:31:28.200 murder in a different outfit from the one that he would later be talking to police in. So here they

01:31:33.100 are, the cops on, um, August 11th asking Murdoch about the Snapchat video and his change of clothes.

01:31:39.600 It's sat 18. There was a video on Paul's phone of, um, you and him on the farm that night and you

01:31:49.000 were in khaki pants and a dress shirt. You were playing with a treat. Um, but I mean, the, the question

01:31:56.360 in that is when I met you that night, you were in shorts and a t-shirt. At what point in that evening

01:32:01.680 did you change clothes? I'm not sure. Uh, you know, it would have been before dinner or after

01:32:13.820 dinner? No, it would have been, what time of day was that? I would have thought I'd already changed.

01:32:20.960 Uh, there's not a time, but I want to say it's, it looks to be about dusk. So that would have been

01:32:27.040 seven 30 o'clock. I guess I changed when I got back to the house.

01:32:33.780 That change of clothes is going to be important. He's clearly, there was a change of clothes.

01:32:37.560 His defense is going to argue what it was hot. It's South Carolina. He was doing yard work. He

01:32:41.360 changed, but you could see he's on his heels there. He didn't realize there was a video showing

01:32:45.600 the change of clothing. We've had testimony by the housekeeper finding the shower and the wet towel

01:32:50.640 in the house. And those clothes are the first, the first clothes have never been found. And you say

01:32:54.860 the prosecution, you know, they should have introduced something about it. It's their burden

01:32:58.180 of proof. But you know, the truth is for us, if he's really innocent, why wouldn't he just go find

01:33:03.780 those clothes and say, here they are. They have no blood on them. He doesn't have the burden of proof,

01:33:07.460 but you and I know as commentators, if he had those clean clothes with no blood on them, we'd be seeing

01:33:11.680 them. Yeah. And some, some other stuff has come out that potentially could be good for them.

01:33:16.100 That's coming out during the trial with some of his GM data on his car. And I believe you're right

01:33:20.480 about that, but this was an exact question asked to agent Owens in, I think redirect where he said,

01:33:26.040 they didn't tell you to go search Alameda, which was where he was during his alibi, the mother's

01:33:29.920 house. They didn't give you the clothes, things like that. And then on recross, the defense attorney

01:33:34.200 made a good point. Is it the suspect's job to do this investigation for you? And I think on,

01:33:39.140 in closing argument, we've made closing arguments like this in, in cases where we've defended in

01:33:42.840 criminal defense cases where they can sit there and point the finger at us all day. But if they didn't do

01:33:47.140 their job, improve the case, the law says you've got to come back with not guilty. If you have

01:33:51.120 reasonable doubt based on that. And that's the big issue in this case, we can sit here and he's

01:33:55.600 going to prison for the rest of his life. We have seen the financial crimes, evidence entered into

01:33:59.940 this case, slam dunk, absolutely beyond a reasonable doubt. He's going to get convicted for those. So

01:34:05.300 he's going to prison forever. I'm just not so sure they can prove he did this.

01:34:10.360 You also have the testimony of Maggie's sister who got up there and said he lured her back to the

01:34:15.140 house. They were not living together. She was at another location. He lured her back saying,

01:34:18.980 please come with me to go see my father. And then she gets there. He doesn't even take her to go to

01:34:22.460 the father. She was emotional. She was powerful. She had encouraged her sister to go. She didn't,

01:34:28.160 Maggie did not want to go back to him. And she's like, you should go. It's his, you know, parent.

01:34:33.200 It was like the prosecution needs a very solid closing right now because they put in enough

01:34:37.540 evidence to sew this story together. But the jury's, it's been very disjointed. And so the jury's heard,

01:34:42.500 as you point out, stories about a lot of different events, they need a very strong

01:34:46.540 closing to, to lead them right to the water and the defense even more so. So right now,

01:34:51.780 if you had to handicap it, Peter, would you say that this is going to be a guilty verdict or not?

01:34:58.040 I would say, yeah, I would put it stronger on the guilty side, mostly because of the other bad acts

01:35:02.800 more than what they can actually prove with the murder. But I think the prosecution needs to pick a

01:35:06.620 theory that the evidence actually points to and proves and not possibilities or maybe happen and just

01:35:12.360 stick to that one theory and go with it and say, you know, they're going to get up and put up a

01:35:15.840 dog and pony show for you, but we know he did this and we know why and go through all the financial

01:35:20.560 crimes and things like that. Peter, thank you so much. We'll be back tomorrow.

01:35:27.660 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:35:42.360 Thank you.

The Megyn Kelly Show - February 16, 2023

Don Lemon's Misogyny, Trans Activists Attack NYT, and Murdaugh Latest, with Jim Geraghty, Michael Brendan Dougherty, and Peter Tragos ｜ Ep. 495

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript