Debra Sook is a neuroscientist and now journalist who wrote a book called The End of Gender: Debunking the Myths About Sex and Identity in Our Society. And not unlike Abigail Schreier, Debra is trying to take on some of the narratives that we are having pushed on us in the classroom, in the psychiatrist s office, and in support groups all over the country.
00:03:36.860I love this as sort of a plain vanilla sex kind of gal, like in your own personal life.
00:03:42.800But you thought it would be really interesting to study unusual sexual interests and sex in general.
00:03:49.160And you got, you know, way into it and got a great job at a great lab and were doing your thing.
00:03:55.520And then saw some stuff in the news that you started to find kind of troubling, kind of inconsistent with what you had learned as a scientist.
00:04:04.800So I had noticed that the climate in academia had shifted.
00:04:09.400And this particular issue around gender transitioning in very young children was being reported on in the news in a really scientifically inaccurate way.
00:04:20.480And so all of the news coverage at that time said that the best way for kids who are gender dysphoric, so kids who say they are born in the wrong body, that they want to live as the opposite sex,
00:04:30.320the best way forward for them was an early transition.
00:04:34.120So to basically live as the opposite sex, to take on a different name, maybe get a haircut or grow their hair long.
00:04:41.580And the parents who were interviewed said that their children were flourishing.
00:04:46.440Medical professionals were saying this was the best thing to happen to these kids.
00:04:50.540But from a scientific perspective, all of the research literature shows that the vast majority of these kids with gender dysphoria,
00:04:57.300they're more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood and not be transgender.
00:05:00.580So it doesn't make sense for them to transition before puberty because there's a good chance they're going to change their minds.
00:05:08.440So I wrote an op-ed about this and I waited about six months to publish it because I knew that there would be backlash to it.
00:05:16.120And at the time I had planned to stay in academia, I talked to a number of my mentors and colleagues and they said to me,
00:05:23.980they're very supportive, but they said, you know what's going to happen when this gets published.
00:05:27.280And I came to the realization that even if I stayed in academia and waited until I had tenure to publish something like that,
00:05:34.840it wouldn't protect me, that I would still lose my job.
00:05:37.420So I made the decision to publish the op-ed and I work as a journalist now.
00:05:43.240I began working as a columnist for Playboy shortly thereafter.
00:05:46.740And now my first book, The End of Gender, is out with Simon & Schuster.
00:05:50.180But take us back to that moment because how many years did it take you of study to get to that point where you were weighing what to do next?
00:05:58.100Well, the funny thing is I used to also think that that was the best thing for these kids.
00:06:02.520I did actually believe that if you have a child who is really unhappy in their birth sex and wants to live as the opposite sex,
00:06:08.820why wouldn't you allow them to do that?
00:06:10.580Why wouldn't you also then allow them to go on and take medical interventions like puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and get surgery?
00:09:17.220And so that's been another part of my goals as a journalist,
00:09:21.480is to reflect what the science says about human sexuality more broadly.
00:09:26.260Because I do think that's really important in terms of us being able to understand who we are.
00:09:30.260Well, I think not a lot of people totally understand that, that our sexual preferences.
00:09:37.120I mean, there's a we'll get into this, but there's obviously a big push to understand that gay and lesbian folks are driven by neuroscience,
00:09:43.520by something that happened in their brains and not just a choice.
00:09:46.600Although now the messaging on that's getting so confused.
00:09:49.140But when you're when you're studying sex, sexual preferences, sexual identity, orientation, all of that, you're studying the brain.
00:09:55.920That's what that's what you're an expert in the brain.
00:09:58.680Yes, I was using brain imaging techniques.
00:10:01.080So this included functional MRI and structural MRI to better understand sexual preferences.
00:10:06.660My my expertise was in paraphilias, which are unusual sexual preferences, sexual orientation,
00:10:12.520which I have to emphasize because the word preference preferences is misused nowadays.
00:10:16.800When I say preferences, I mean sexual preferences that cannot be changed because sexual orientation is immutable.
00:10:22.760And I was also studying hypersexuality.
00:10:26.420I mean, the technology is incredible in terms of what we're able to do and the questions we're able to probe.
00:10:32.000But I find it really upsetting to see how biology and biological explanations really are being denigrated now by people who, in many cases, know nothing about the field.
00:10:41.640They know nothing about what the research literature says.
00:10:43.900They have just simply decided that biology is threatening.
00:10:46.220And so they shut down and intimidate academics so that they can push their particular political agendas.
00:10:53.020Now, I know I have to just take a little trip down this side lane with you for a minute, because I got to ask you if you're studying, you know, how did you put it?
00:11:50.680I wish I could experience this, actually, but in some cases being rebirthed.
00:11:57.020So the process of either being pulled back up into the uterus or being birthed out of the canal.
00:12:03.220So it sounds really unusual, but I think it's interesting to me.
00:12:08.620And I think by understanding that there's so much shame around it, by understanding it and talking about it and talking about sex like it's no different from anything else.
00:12:15.720I think that would do people a lot of good.
00:12:18.660Okay, but let me let me just say what everybody's thinking.
00:12:23.240I know we're not supposed to stigmatize, but wow, that's weird.
00:12:26.800And are you did you conclude there's something in the brain that develops that that drives that proclivity?
00:12:33.040I found that there are and there's a larger body of research to suggest that paraphilias are innate in that they are with someone from a very young age.
00:12:44.560They cannot be changed and that whatever it is that someone finds sexually interesting, if it's very unusual, there's a biological component to that.
00:12:54.620So previously, it was believed to be purely a social thing or that it's something that someone learned.
00:13:00.520But the main takeaway is that if someone has a paraphilia, it's not something that they can change.
00:13:04.900So if they're really into something sexually, they can't suppress that, especially not in men.
00:13:10.100They can't suppress that and be interested in something else.
00:13:13.780Another question on this, because a lot of people talked about this when Harvey Weinstein was in the news for all of his oddities and abuse.
00:13:20.680I mean, it was obviously abuse, but it seemed like with him, he almost needed an element of shame for his pleasure.
00:13:29.760You know, like he needed to be doing something that was just verboten in order to get there.
00:13:37.480And I remember thinking that's got to be some sort of a psychological thing.
00:13:41.660There's just like that's not a thing that most people have.
00:13:44.940Like in order to sort of get there sexually, you need to be feeling ashamed of yourself or bad or awful.
00:13:56.400So it's difficult for me to say definitively because I've never met him and I haven't sat down and obviously done a full proper assessment.
00:15:01.380And I think if we are trying to really understand sexual offending behavior and to stop it, we have to understand the root causes accurately.
00:15:10.540And if you actually sit down and talk to a sexual offender, I mean, most of them, the vast majority of them are lying through their teeth.
00:15:16.320But when you understand the research literature and how their minds work, it's always antisociality.
00:16:49.740Well, I mean, it's a fascinating, a fascinating field of study.
00:16:52.460You know, I'm talking about Trump for a living and you're doing that.
00:16:55.780I just like your job sounds really interesting.
00:16:57.860So that's just by way of background and how you got, I mean, really effectively forced out of your out of your chosen profession, because you you hit the one third rail you may not discuss in in your profession as a scientist, which is what's real about biological sex?
00:17:31.140It's it is not it's not a social construct.
00:17:34.040And for this, you've been called a bigot, even a racist and a Nazi, which is weird, sort of a weird turn, because this has now become controversial.
00:17:44.240But let me just ask you straight up, is there any doubt in your mind that biology is either male or female, biological sex is either male or female or that gender, too, is biological?
00:19:01.340I think we can acknowledge that a large part of who we are is predetermined and dictated by hormonal exposure in the womb.
00:19:10.420But that's not to say that we aren't capable of making our own choices or having a meaningful life.
00:19:16.020And I think when it comes to, say, the trans community or the intersex community, these individuals and activists believe that we have to pretend biology doesn't exist or biological sex doesn't exist in order to advocate for equal rights for these communities.
00:19:51.980Because what would they be transitioning from and to?
00:19:54.140But the interesting thing is now that the word transgender, the umbrella, so-called umbrella, has expanded to include people who identify as non-binary, which is a third gender, which is essentially a mix of both genders or neither.
00:20:09.740It also has the term transgender has also now encompassed gender non-conforming people.
00:20:48.300The most common ones would be, as you mentioned, gender fluid, gender neutral, gender queer.
00:20:53.180I don't like to use that word because to me, queer is a slur against the gay community, agender, bigender.
00:20:59.440And so essentially they're saying they are not male or female.
00:21:02.600And they tend to non-binary people tend to go by they, them pronouns, although there's a whole other litany of pronouns that they may also use.
00:21:10.440OK, so, I mean, if you're explaining this to your kid, because I've had to explain this to my kids where they come home from school and they're like, well, my teacher said that there are up to 100 genders, you know, something like that.
00:21:21.960Or, you know, at least in Europe, they have three or four.
00:21:44.540I do think people can identify however they want and I'll be respectful and use whatever pronoun they want.
00:21:49.280But from a scientific perspective, there are two.
00:21:51.800So I think what you're telling your kids is fantastic.
00:21:55.260So people who say gender is a social construct are the people who don't want to have the doctor say their baby is a boy or a girl when the baby's born.
00:22:06.500You know, you describe them in the book as this growing trend toward babies.
00:22:10.620People are having babies because they don't want their their baby identified as a boy or a girl.
00:22:16.440And they're going to let their baby figure out whether they're a boy or a girl as they get older.
00:22:20.840They they basically think that that your biology, your anatomy has nothing to do with your gender.
00:22:31.120My understanding anyway, they they will.
00:22:33.220So if they are parenting babies, they will not tell people the sex of the baby.
00:22:37.560They say that they want the child to be able to decide their own gender.
00:22:42.980They'll use language like sex assigned at birth, which is not accurate.
00:22:47.380I don't like language like that because it makes it sound as though the physician arbitrarily determined what a child's sex is.
00:22:54.600When statistically speaking, that determination will be correct 99 times out of 100 because only about 1% of the population is intersex.
00:23:03.580But these parents treat it as though this is something that there's a high likelihood of.
00:23:09.080And again, I'm fully in support of intersex people, but even intersex people, the vast majority will say that they want to live as a binary sex.
00:23:41.000Is that what we used to refer to as a hermaphrodite?
00:23:43.900Yes, previously, but that's now considered in sensitive terms.
00:23:47.880So now people prefer to use intersex to describe that.
00:23:51.360So with these parents, I think, I'd like to think that they have good intentions, but you will see cases now where parents will go one step further, and they will now say that their child is non-binary.
00:24:17.520They don't understand that a person's gender doesn't change over time.
00:24:20.520So you can't take what a child says about their gender at face value.
00:24:24.400And I think in many cases, it's just parents trying to project their own politics on their kids, or they're using their kids as a way to show off in terms of how progressive or open-minded they are.
00:24:35.860I still consider myself to be progressive on many issues.
00:24:38.700But to me, this is wholly inappropriate.
00:24:41.440I mean, working out your own issues on your kids in any way is inappropriate, but this is particularly dangerous because it can lead to real psychological damage and physical damage.
00:24:51.800That's what Abigail Schreier is saying in her book, Irreversible Damage.
00:24:54.760And I know, I'm sure you know Abigail, and I've seen what she's doing on this work as well.
00:25:21.280When a baby is born, typically the doctor will make an assessment based on the external genitalia.
00:25:26.380In some cases, they can do chromosomal testing.
00:25:29.700But for the most part, I don't think parents have to worry that the doctor is necessarily wrong.
00:25:36.600I think in the event that a child is intersex and you learn of that, leave, I mean, the biggest thing I would say to take away from that is intersex people should have bodily autonomy.
00:25:48.080And that's the other thing I think activists are pushing for by this conception that biological sex doesn't exist or that it's a spectrum because they are saying intersex children especially should not be forced to undergo surgeries that they did not consent to.
00:26:05.260And if someone decides that when they are old enough, that's something that they want to do, that's their choice.
00:26:10.380Or if they choose not to undergo surgery, then that should be perfectly fine, too.
00:26:13.960But it's not accurate to say that a doctor's estimation is completely wrong or that as a result, we should just treat it as though a child is that that these external markers don't mean anything.
00:26:29.380I mean, we see medical organizations adopting this particular language, which I don't find helpful.
00:26:34.680I think it's just confusing to people.
00:26:36.440Well, and if it's all based on intersex children, which are only 1% of children born, why on earth would we be changing the entire references for boys and girls for gender based on 1%, a very rare condition, relatively speaking?
00:26:52.240I mean, it also includes people who just think, I don't know whether my kid is going to identify with the biological sex, and so I'm going to keep that door open so he doesn't get tortured, you know, being born in a body that is a boy, but actually later identifying as a girl.
00:27:06.520And I've socialized him as a boy all these years, and I effectively tortured him, so I'm just going to let it unfold as nature intended.
00:27:12.980But that too, that too could cause real problems.
00:27:17.020And yet, we've really gone down this lane.
00:27:19.600I mean, you point out in your book that there's some hospital, was it in Ohio?
00:27:26.600Yeah, so they've gotten rid of the identification boy or girl on the little bracelet that the baby gets in the hospital when he's born or she's born and the mommy gets.
00:27:35.720I mean, that's like, those are in part necessary just to identify whose baby is whose and whether you have the right kid.
00:27:57.980It's been this real push from the activists.
00:28:01.620And the bullying and the intimidation is real.
00:28:04.680I mean, people suffer real consequences to their careers if they speak out about this or if they go against it.
00:28:09.940So this is where we end up, where there are policies and guidelines being put into place that I don't think are actually necessarily beneficial to anyone.
00:28:21.380I don't think they're even necessarily good for the communities for which they claim to be protecting.
00:28:27.320And yeah, especially with the idea that gender is a social construct.
00:28:32.300And you see very little pushback about this.
00:28:34.720In 2017, when James Damore's infamous Google memo leaked to the public and he argued that gender is not a social construct and that occupational preferences are not due to sexism.
00:28:48.560I thought that would be a turning point.
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00:31:05.280And you say that both gender identity, whether you align with your biological sex, and gender expression, whether you choose to do, you know, makeup and dresses and that kind of thing as a guy, for example, that those two are biologically determined.
00:31:23.540It goes back to the prenatal environment and testosterone exposure.
00:31:27.540So higher levels of exposure to testosterone are associated with more male typical interests and behaviors.
00:31:35.160With the example of men wearing makeup, that's an interesting one because it can be due to this, but it can also be due to a paraphilia, which is different.
00:31:46.000But by and large, when I talk about gender identity, it has to do with prenatal hormonal exposure.
00:31:55.000So if you are a boy who you don't think you're trans, but maybe you're a more feminine guy, you're just more feminine, that is probably biological.
00:32:11.860Yes. And the other thing with prenatal testosterone exposure is higher levels are also associated with sexual interest in women.
00:32:20.760So for gay men, they are on average exposed to lower levels of testosterone.
00:32:29.240So they are more likely to be feminine.
00:32:32.740I'm someone who grew up in the gay community.
00:32:34.820So I just want to say that I'm fully in support of gay rights.
00:32:37.460I don't think there's anything wrong with being gay.
00:32:39.420But research has shown that it's likely due to lower levels of exposure to testosterone, which is what you also see with women who are sexually attracted to men.
00:32:48.660Well, and this is what we've been told for years by by folks in the gay community who are trying to say, stop targeting us.
00:32:56.400Stop telling us we can't serve in the military.
00:32:58.020Stop telling us we can't get married because we were we were born with this sexual orientation and we don't we don't want to be punished and we don't want to be sent to conversion camps because it's biological and we can't be converted.
00:33:11.040Exactly. So sexual orientation cannot be changed if someone is gay or bisexual, they cannot be made to be straight.
00:33:20.000And so I do think conversion therapy for sexual orientation is not effective.
00:33:28.320However, there's been a movement more recently to lump gender identity into conversion therapy bands, which is not appropriate.
00:33:37.560And that's because gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing.
00:33:41.700And gender identity, especially in young children, can change with development.
00:33:46.780Yeah. In other words, now they're using the abhorrence for conversion therapy, like when we try to take our gay children and make them straight.
00:33:54.880Right. Like however people were trying to do that, they're using that as a way of saying, trying to stop your allegedly trans kid from transitioning at age five is the same as conversion therapy.
00:34:14.000There are two different things, but I think activist groups have been very savvy in the way that they've marketed this to the public because people, and I believe rightfully so, are really against conversion therapy for sexual orientation.
00:34:27.560They know that it's harmful and that it doesn't work.
00:34:30.660And so now if you say, well, this also includes gender identity, who wants to be the person to say, actually, I don't have an issue with so-called conversion therapy for gender identity.
00:34:39.860And so we see actually in Canada, where I am based in Toronto, we see a law, a bill that's about to be passed into law that's actually going to criminalize any therapeutic interventions that do not facilitate transitioning in children.
00:34:55.180And so mental health professionals cannot do their jobs properly.
00:34:58.240If you potentially face five years in prison for asking someone who is gender dysphoric, why do you feel that way?
00:35:05.640What else is going on in your life that could lead you to feel this way?
00:35:52.720Tell us what the numbers are for kids who think they're born in, quote, the wrong body, who then grow out of it and turn out to be totally in the right body.
00:37:04.640So that's another way in which I think the public is being basically pushed or coerced along to agreeing with this because they think, well, the narratives are the same as people who are gay.
00:37:28.540But without pausing to ask themselves what what is supportive is being supportive, letting my 16 year old have a double mastectomy because she's going through potentially just a phase where she's unhappy.
00:37:45.520Like you got to really figure out what does supportive mean, because you could be actually feeding into an unhealthy phase your child's going through that if left alone, she or he would totally grow out of.
00:38:00.980Like, what is the age for parents out there wondering?
00:38:03.260I mean, I think most parents, most wouldn't be looking at their three year old boy who wants to wear dresses and say, oh, he's a girl.
00:38:08.820He's a girl. But what what is the age where you start to take them, you know, very seriously on claims that they're in the wrong body?
00:38:17.300One more point I wanted to make, actually, that conversion therapy is that now the push to allow kids to transition, the kids who are gender dysphoric, it is the new conversion therapy.
00:38:29.380And many of my colleagues who do therapy will say this, because what you're doing is you're essentially taking these children who would have otherwise grown up to be gay in adulthood.
00:38:36.940And because they're transitioning, when they grow up, they're going to appear to be straight, because if you have a very feminine little boy, parents, some parents, I think, know that there's a chance their son's going to grow up to be a gay man and be attracted to men.
00:38:49.460But if that little boy transitions to female when she grows up and she's attracted to men, she's going to appear to be a straight woman.
00:38:55.500Can I say I saw that in your book, but I don't understand that, because it to me, when I picture that parent who's like, I don't want him to be gay, I don't want her to be a lesbian.
00:39:03.580That doesn't seem like a parent who's going to say, like, so let's change her sex altogether.
00:39:07.820Now I'm going to make him I'm going to make him be a girl.
00:39:14.820And I mean, I do get critics who say that to me, that parents are not more accepting of trans children than they are of gay children.
00:39:22.180But I have colleagues who do therapy who will tell me this, that the parents are fully on board with this idea of transitioning their child because their child won't appear to be gay.
00:39:35.220I mean, I've talked to some detransitioners who would tell me that when they decided to detransition, their parents were not supportive because they knew that they were lesbian and they didn't want them to be lesbian.
00:39:45.660I don't think all parents who make this decision are necessarily coming from a place of being homophobic.
00:39:52.720But I do think it's an issue that we're not talking about and that these parents are being lauded as though they're forward thinking and they're loving when it's really not the case.
00:40:10.760I mean, like that is that's dark and it's dramatic and it's awful.
00:40:15.500And these parents are feeding into a system that you now point out is managed by doctors who in Canada and more and more here are being told there's only one thing to do.
00:40:34.400Is there something going on with him or her physically or with respect to the kids at school?
00:40:38.760Oh, you're not supposed to get into that as if one psychological state has absolutely nothing to do with the inquiry about whether a child should transition.
00:40:50.660It's seen as hateful to try and understand whether the gender dysphoria could be explained by other factors.
00:40:56.060But going to your question about the the appropriate age in an ideal world, parents would be able to take their child to a mental health professional and the professional would be able to do a proper assessment and determine is this something how long has the child been feeling this way?
00:41:14.900If they transition, is this really going to be the best decision for them?
00:41:20.880If you do undergo these medical interventions, they are lifelong and they come with potentially irreversible side effects that someone will have to live with if they do decide not to take them anymore.
00:41:33.140So that is not where we are in the climate right now, because, as I mentioned, clinicians now they face potentially going to prison.
00:41:41.840I know in the U.S. that 20 states have bans on conversion therapy, which include gender identity in that.
00:41:47.840But so what you see instead is that all of the therapists who do this work are activism driven.
00:42:10.300No, and from the conversations I've had with parents, they will say to me the worst decision they made was actually to take their children to gender therapists, because the therapist makes it even more difficult for the child to not decide to transition.
00:42:25.980I would say seek out any support you can that is not in favor of this jump on the bandwagon early transitioning.
00:42:37.160There are a few clinicians who are willing to do that work.
00:42:42.460Most of them are close to retirement, so they don't care if they get fired and they don't really care what people have to say about them.
00:42:48.860I would say the most important thing is to love your child no matter what and to try and have your relationship revolve around other things than their gender or whatever, however they're feeling about their gender.
00:43:00.480To take the pressure off in that way and to just support them more generally.
00:43:06.820I mean, I think for a lot of these kids, and as you mentioned, it can be a phase for a lot of them.
00:43:41.480So it's really important that those issues are talked about.
00:43:46.100It's difficult for parents to know what's going on in therapy, but that would be my advice.
00:43:55.060And just to not feel bad about questioning it, because parents are also being shamed if they question what their child is telling them,
00:44:02.700or if they question the mental health professional, or if they question the teachers and doctors.
00:44:07.480And I think most parents, I mean, parents know their children the best.
00:44:11.020So don't ever feel bad for having that gut feeling that something is not right.
00:44:16.820I know you point out in the book that the American Journal of Psychiatry concluded 61% of patients presenting with gender dysphoria,
00:44:25.340you know, where they think they might be a boy when they've been born a girl, have another psychological disorder.
00:44:33.28061% presenting with gender dysphoria have another psychological disorder.
00:44:38.400So to pretend that we shouldn't, you know, try to connect those dots or figure out whether it's that other psychological disorder driving the decision to want to cut off your breasts and prevent yourself really from being fertile.
00:44:54.420You know, we talk about this with Abigail, that if you go on puberty blockers, you never let your child have puberty, go into puberty, and then give your child cross-sex hormones.
00:45:11.140So you're making a lifelong, irreversible decision for somebody who, again, as she's pointing out in, as you point out, the American Journal of Psychiatry pointed out that in the vast majority of these cases has another psychological disorder.
00:45:23.700And now the poor parents can't even, like, probe that in a productive way because the psychiatrists are being told, you got to side with the kid, side with the declaration of being trans in all cases, or you're a bigot and you're in trouble.
00:45:39.920And I understand to some extent why people don't want to talk about the mental health aspect or they want to downplay the comorbidity because I do think trans people have faced unfair stigma for being trans.
00:45:54.280And people will often dismiss the way they feel as being purely due to, how should I say this, a mental disorder.
00:46:05.400Because there's such stigma around having a mental health condition.
00:46:09.580So activists have tried to completely remove any aspects of mental health from gender dysphoria or from transitioning, which I don't think is helpful because that's a huge part of the equation in terms of determining what's best for you.
00:46:27.260So, again, it's a situation where you have activists who have taken the complete.
00:46:31.040They view it as very black and white and the suppression of this information is not ultimately going to be helpful for anyone who is considering transitioning.
00:46:40.960It's so tricky because we for so long just bullied anybody who thought they were trans.
00:46:46.880And, you know, they have high suicide rates, although I understand that that's not hasn't been determined whether that's because of people not accepting them or because they sort of were depressed and feeling unwell prior to having these issues.
00:47:00.020But the point is, bullying of trans people, adults or kids is not acceptable.
00:47:05.560But the answer is not to overcorrect by declaring everyone trans and suitable for surgery without probing whether it's actually the issue, whether it's actually the real issue.
00:47:15.740And you point out in the book, most transgender adults agree with you on this.
00:47:20.740They they they don't want to see teenagers running to have irreversible surgeries and render themselves infertile.
00:47:29.700And usually that's not what transgender adults did themselves.
00:47:33.340Absolutely. And it's been a really huge relief to me to have trans people reach out and say this to me because I'm not transgender and I never want to pretend like I'm speaking for the community.
00:47:43.980And I do think a lot about how to be responsible with this information, because I don't want it to be used to hold back the community or to just justify discrimination against them.
00:47:56.220But but definitely, I mean, this newer wave of the young women that we're seeing, especially with rapid onset gender dysphoria, they're transitioning very quickly.
00:48:04.620Often they have no history of gender dysphoria.
00:48:06.800In many cases, it's because they've gone through puberty.
00:48:15.320It's it's not a fun process for anybody.
00:48:18.660And instead of saying to young women, you have breasts, you know, your body has changed.
00:48:23.560You may be getting sexual attention in a way that you didn't before and you don't like it.
00:48:27.720But that's not to say you're not a woman.
00:48:30.600And I think also with the non-binary movement, what I see is a lot of young women who are not stereotypically feminine.
00:48:37.320So they may be more male typical and they think because they're not stereotypically feminine or they look around at their peers and there's a real push for young women to self-sexualize nowadays.
00:48:47.360I mean, I think that push has always been there, but especially with social media, it's even more self-sexualized.
00:48:51.740Well, to embrace their sexuality at such a young age and to really put signals out there, I would say.
00:49:00.580And so I think for young women who are not interested in that or don't don't feel like they can they don't want that for themselves.
00:49:08.060They think, well, that must mean I'm not really a girl, but it's not.
00:49:39.180And I find it really upsetting as a woman to see this happening.
00:49:43.200And especially when I talked to D transitioners when I was writing this book, it really disturbed me to see how society is not pushing back on any of this.
00:49:52.460And to me, it's to me, that's extremely sexist to say, well, if you're not super feminine, then you must not count as a woman.
00:50:00.600Why is our culture saying fantastic will help you live as a man or as a third gender will will help you get surgery and remove your breasts.
00:50:11.340And I do think that sounds misogynistic, that you would define womanhood so narrowly that only someone who looks like June Cleaver is in the tent.
00:50:57.040Like they're part of a club, an instant club with instant friends and support all over the Internet, never mind in the school where they're getting paraded out onto the stage in the auditorium and people are clapping for them.
00:51:08.880Whereas they might just be going through a difficult phase in life and looking for an off ramp that will give them some relief from the hell that is puberty and was for all of us.
00:51:19.100Yeah, I think for older people who especially identify as non-binary or want to lump themselves into the trans umbrella, it's a way to fit in, which is sounds so ridiculous because trans people are a marginalized group and they do face, I think, legitimate discrimination and oppression in some cases.
00:51:38.060But you will see some people now identifying as non-binary, they'll identify as queer, which again, I don't like that term because I find it offensive, because it gets them points in terms of their social group, in terms of showing how progressive they are.
00:51:53.560And actually, there was a study by Lisa Littman, I think you've spoken about this before, and in her study, she found that teachers were more concerned about anti-trans bullying than anti-gay bullying.
00:52:05.260So, gay students are basically left to their own devices, but if they were to identify as trans, then...
00:52:17.740More with Debra So in just one minute, but first, we want to bring you a feature we call Asked and Answered, where our listeners write in to us with some questions and we try to provide some answers.
00:52:27.120Steve Krakauer is our executive producer and he's got the first half of this equation. Hey, Steve.
00:52:31.280That's right, Megan. Lots of great questions continue to come in.
00:52:34.500And so we would ask for more questions at devilmaycaremedia.com.
00:52:49.180And then she gives out some of the highlights of this, but she really wants to know, she's part of the group of parents who have really embraced this and also, she says, are embracing free speech and open debate.
00:53:17.540But she wants to know, how can she combat this?
00:53:21.640She wants to know, besides pulling children out of the school, what do you recommend families do in this type of situation?
00:53:27.380Well, I appreciate the question because no one objects to a school being anti-racist.
00:53:32.280It's a question of how they get there.
00:53:33.920And too often in today's day and age, the school's putting out racist literature in order to supposedly support an anti-racist agenda.
00:53:42.500And that's where parents get upset, right?
00:53:44.420You don't divide people and then ask them to unite.
00:53:47.180We're seeing that at the federal level right now with the presidential election.
00:53:50.320And it doesn't work in schools either to sort of demonize instead of to overcompensate for demonizing one group for far too long to then demonize the other.
00:53:58.380So what we need is buy-in, need buy-in by the whole school community as opposed to something that sows division.
00:54:04.580I think, you know, number one, the best thing is to make a good selection in schools and try to find out whether ideologically you guys align before you go in.
00:54:12.440Easier said than done, especially when you're in a public school.
00:54:14.600So, you know, most people go to public schools, they live in the district, they pay taxes, the school has to take their kids, and that's what makes sense for the family.
00:54:23.220But I think even there, number one, speak up.
00:54:27.160You know, as we've been discussing on this show, you've got to speak up because, and on all these shows that we've been covering these issues on, if you don't, who else will?
00:54:39.000If you can find others, even quietly, asking around, like, who's with me, you know, what's a good message, how can we raise this sensitively and, you know, with respect for the country's mood and what's happening right now?
00:54:51.180And I think if you think it's a battle you can win, you have open-minded administrators or you have enough parents that you feel they have no choice but to listen to you, then you should fight.
00:55:02.000Then you should stand up for viewpoint diversity, different kinds of speakers, you know, if you're going to bring in somebody who I think is crazy in her messaging, like a Robin DiAngelo, then you better bring in a Coleman Hughes to respond, right?
00:55:16.280I don't know that they're going to do it.
00:55:18.260And I think, ultimately, if you get to the point where you realize you're just banging your head against the wall and nothing's going to change, and this is just causing aggravation in your life for no reason, right?
00:55:27.860Because you're not going to persuade them, then you have to think about dramatic next steps like leaving.
00:55:36.760It's up to you whether you want to spend the next X years counter-programming your child so that he or she doesn't get shamed for things like their pigmentation or their gender that they have no control over,
00:55:48.680or whether you just want to go to a school that doesn't make it this hard for you, you know, that tries to keep its heavy social justice agenda out of the curricula.
00:55:57.220You know, or there is more working in tandem with you.
00:58:34.420I mean, medical professionals, if someone were to go in and to say they identified as any of these magical genders, you can't question it.
00:58:44.260I do think that for many people who are identifying this way, especially young people, they are trying to figure out who they are, as we all were.
00:58:54.880But I'm just astounded that parents and adults are not, I mean, I think it's okay to say, you know what, I see this as something other than what it is.
00:59:06.780But I think people have just been so cowed into believing what they're being told by activist groups that it's bigoted to question any of this.
00:59:14.660That questioning self-identification in any way is hateful and harmful.
00:59:20.360And so that's why they simply go along with it.
00:59:23.760I mean, you talk about how their parents are now told, if you interfere at all, if you do anything other than accept, your child's going to kill him or herself.
00:59:32.820And the question is, would you rather have, like if it's your son who comes and says, I think I'm trans, I'm actually a girl.
00:59:41.500The question is, would you rather have a happy daughter or a dead son?
00:59:45.900And you say, that is a morally bankrupt question.
00:59:49.220It is not okay to be asking parents of potentially trans kids this.
00:59:54.920Because what kind of parent is going to say, yes, I prefer a dead child.
00:59:58.540Of course, they're going to say they prefer a happy child.
01:00:00.540And so they're being emotionally blackmailed by medical professionals, by activists, by organized, I would say, even medical and scientific organizations into going along with this because they feel they have no choice.
01:00:13.780They really believe that if they do not allow their child to transition and they don't support the child in transition, that the child is going to kill themselves.
01:00:22.220And meanwhile, the other problem here is that we're not just talking about a theoretical version of support, like I support you and I love you.
01:00:33.840And we'll just sort of see this phase play out where you can be like, all right, you know, she wants to be called by a boy name.
01:00:43.460These kids are getting surgery and getting surgery is easier than ever, not to mention cross sex hormones, which can be gotten in way too many instances without your parents knowing or support.
01:00:56.280So it's like the medical community is in cahoots, not just in accepting, accepting, accepting, but actually operating on these kids in ways that are irreversible.
01:01:08.860It's so fast to the process by which they can get approved for surgery.
01:01:14.280So there are guidelines that say you have to wait a certain amount of time.
01:01:17.740You know, you're not supposed to start blockers until this point and then cross sex hormones and then surgery if you decide to.
01:01:23.160But in many cases, those age milestones are surpassed if the parents are OK with it.
01:01:32.220And the parents, in many cases, think that this is going to be lifesaving for their child.
01:01:39.980I've heard of some cases where girls as young, people born female as young as age 12 are getting double mastectomies and puberty blockers are being given to children as young as age eight in some cases.
01:01:51.440And to me, I mean, eight is obviously way too young.
01:01:56.220I think even age 12 is too young to be making a decision about permanently removing parts of your body.
01:02:06.640And one of the options is to love, support.
01:02:11.240Don't be cruel to a child saying this, you know, be open minded, but at least postpone any big moves until puberty hits and see if it's persisting at that point.
01:02:21.700But is there an age by which you should accept a child's declaration?
01:02:27.680And and also, is there a time frame over which they must have been saying it?
01:02:32.660You know, like there should be no surgery after six months of somebody saying I'm actually in the wrong body.
01:02:37.560But is there a time frame that is acceptable?
01:02:40.740Well, with the medical guidelines, so they suggest not starting puberty blockers until the child has actually started puberty.
01:02:47.580And then cross sex hormones are not to be started until a child is believed to have the capacity for informed consent.
01:02:54.340So that's generally seen to be about age 16, although some allowances have been made for children younger than that.
01:02:59.900And then usually with double mastectomies, that's supposed to not be until a child has been on cross sex hormones for two years, although I've heard of cases where it's been a year, sometimes less than that.
01:03:12.320And then genital surgery is not supposed to be until legal adulthood.
01:03:17.860But from the stories I'm hearing from parents, it's definitely there's definitely a lot of room there for personal decision.
01:03:27.880And I understand to some extent because I do believe medical gatekeeping has been an issue for trans people historically.
01:03:36.040They haven't been able to get access to the care that they deserve.
01:03:40.120But I don't think the solution to that is to go in the complete opposite direction and to basically say it's on demand now.
01:03:48.860No, especially when I know you spoke with endocrinologists in the book who point out delaying puberty is is is not perfectly safe.
01:03:57.800There are physical consequences to delaying puberty that it's a critical time for your physical, your psychosocial development, you say in the book.
01:04:07.740And we just don't fully understand what the consequences of arresting that in a young boy or a young girl, even if you restart it later, will be.
01:04:17.940Yeah, the research, we don't yet know what the long term effects are.
01:04:21.400I previously, as I mentioned, I thought that this was the best way forward for these kids, because to me, before I began looking at the research literature, I thought, well, it makes sense that if you are to halt these otherwise permanent changes that go along with puberty, wouldn't that help a child then live as the sex they like to live as instead of having to live with.
01:04:45.600Um, physical changes that would make that more difficult, but as I discussed in the book, uh, we don't have those data yet, but parents, from my understanding, are being told that puberty blockers are a pause button.
01:05:00.860And that if someone decides that they don't want to continue on with transition, that they can just stop taking them and that everything will resume as normally.
01:05:11.580Mm hmm. And they've also been told that there's no harm done in if your daughter, for example, is saying she thinks she's a boy and you're trying to be supportive and let her do that.
01:05:21.420The notion that there's no harm done in her declaring herself publicly a boy is not supported because once she's declared it and put herself out there as being trans and gotten all the accolades makes it a lot tougher for a 13 year old girl to go back on that.
01:05:41.120A social transition is associated with going on to undergo medical interventions associated with transition.
01:05:49.460So this is a piece of the discussion that is not being talked about.
01:05:54.540And I don't think parents who are even, uh, agreeing to allow their child to socially transition necessarily know this because they're being told a social transition is harmless.
01:06:05.280And if you allow your child to live as the opposite sex, even if there are no medical interventions involved, that this is totally reversible.
01:06:14.580They can change their mind at any time.
01:06:17.220And they'll say something like, oh, young children are not undergoing surgery.
01:06:22.280But even just socially transitioning, as I mentioned, is associated with going on because it is difficult for a child to say to everyone in their life, I've been living as the opposite sex for however long and I made a mistake.
01:06:37.480And so now you've gone this long calling me by the opposite sex.
01:06:41.100Now we have to go back to being referred to by my birth sex.
01:06:44.660And for these transitioners I spoke to, they told me it's, it's a really shameful process.
01:06:51.280And also for young children who are being given so much praise and attention for transitioning, as you mentioned, they will, in some cases, get parties thrown for them at school.
01:07:01.140They will get all the adults in their life telling them that they're so courageous.
01:07:05.500And I mean, why would you want to give that up?
01:07:07.800It also makes other kids, other, their peers say, well, what do I need to do to get that kind of attention and praise?
01:07:17.900And again, in an attempt to overcorrect a bullying mindset, we've crossed over to celebration, which is fraught as well.
01:07:27.000Because, you know, you point out that in discussing what Lisa Lipman found, this scientist who, she was a pediatrician, physician and assistant professor at Brown University.
01:07:35.820And she's the one who did the research on this looking like a social contagion among, among girls, among young, young girls who typically never suffered from gender dysphoria historically, but now are the majority of kids suffering from it, allegedly.
01:07:51.060And that something like 40% of the young girls who declare themselves trans had multiple friends coming out as transgender as well.
01:08:02.640That there does appear to be a social contagion factor here.
01:08:05.580Yeah, that 40% of them had a friend group in which at least half of their friends also identified as transgender.
01:08:13.220And this is 70 times, 70 times what you would see in the general population in terms of the incidence of people who identify as trans.
01:08:24.240I have people reaching out to me from all over the world who will say to me that this issue affects them.
01:08:29.800If it's not their own child, they know someone's child or their child is in a class with multiple kids who are trans.
01:08:37.640I think, Megan, I've heard you say something like that in a previous episode where you know a family who, I mean, it's just the fact that so many.
01:08:46.620They have a daughter who's socially awkward and she's declared herself trans.
01:09:05.940Or even when there are two or three trans boys in a given class.
01:09:09.920To me, that's just statistically so unlikely.
01:09:13.660And people will say, oh, it's due to greater social acceptance.
01:09:16.740But if that's the case, why do we not see the same thing happening with people born male?
01:09:23.960And when you talk to these young women who have detransitioned, they will say that they had other things going on that were not addressed.
01:09:31.580That they wish someone had brought up and said, maybe we should talk about this instead of taking what you're saying and running with it.
01:09:40.420And that's what I find the most heartbreaking is the young women who were essentially let down by the medical community.
01:09:47.660And they continue to be because there is no support, virtually no support available to them.
01:09:54.700They now have to navigate living with, in some cases, permanent side effects of having been on these interventions and testosterone or surgery.
01:10:08.780They're being told that they don't exist.
01:10:10.660If you look at how the mainstream talks about them, they're being told that they never really had gender dysphoria or that they're so statistically rare that it doesn't matter.
01:10:20.800And I don't understand with a movement that is so obsessed with so-called lived experience, why it is the lived experience of these individuals doesn't matter.
01:10:53.320Girls who are surrounded by girls suffering with social issues or psychological issues who declare themselves trans at school.
01:11:00.720And then feel pressured into doing it themselves and feel shamed about their sexuality, about their bodies, about their period and decide who the hell wants to be a woman.
01:11:09.360I'm going to cross over to where I don't have to deal with this nonsense and I can be more socially accepted.
01:11:14.100Girls who then get no support from a medical system who immediately confirms that they must indeed be not a girl if they're suffering these things.
01:11:21.160They need to be therapized out of puberty and girlhood and starts pumping them full of hormones that rendered them potentially infertile, leading to them having, quote, top surgery.
01:11:32.380If they take male hormones, they start to grow male anatomy that cannot be undone and they will not want if they detransition.
01:11:41.480And and then women who aren't trans but speak up about this saying this doesn't seem right.
01:11:47.840And I don't necessarily agree with trans girls, you know, girls who are born boys running in girls track meets or wrestling against my daughter.
01:11:58.520And then they're called TERFs, which is a derogatory term for women who speak up about these.
01:12:02.680It's like women get the short end of this argument every time.
01:12:07.080And I just I feel like nine times out of 10, it's these very loud trans activists who Abigail was telling me, you know, those are those are people who were identified male at birth.
01:12:17.020They grew up largely as boys and men who are trying to shut these women up from saying, I love you.
01:12:23.440I'm listening to you, but I have something I need to say, too.
01:12:29.380Yeah, I mean, the extreme the extreme way that this is playing out is look at even in prisons where gender identification now is based on self-determination.
01:12:38.040So a male sex offender who sexually abused women, if he decides that he identifies as female, he'll be housed in a female ward or female prison.
01:12:55.180And as you said, women continually get the short end of the stick.
01:13:00.020And I I'm not sure what more it's going to take for people to wake up and fully see this and find find that the potential costs of speaking out are outweighed by what can be gained by doing so, because I don't feel we really have a choice.
01:13:20.840It's just going to continue getting worse until we do.
01:13:23.980We're not even allowed to hold on to the things that have previously been celebrated.
01:13:28.640And some of the great things about being a woman that only a woman can do, you know, like, you know, you point out in the book, it's now considered transphobic to say women give birth.
01:13:51.000I'm just it's like, can we just have what we have?
01:13:54.840And then if you want in, you are welcome, but you don't get to take away what is ours, what is ours by nature, by God, by birthright.
01:14:03.680I just like the fact that it's controversial to say women have babies.
01:14:09.500Women are the ones who have babies is outrageous and somehow and it's not transphobic to say otherwise.
01:14:15.140And yet this is what's led to J.K. Rowling having such a blowback against her and being decried as hateful.
01:14:23.140I don't like it's a small group, but they've totally co-opted the language in the narrative.
01:14:28.500There's a double standard, too, because you will see, say, with the news outlets, they will still talk about men's sperm.
01:14:35.080They'll refer to male physiology and they won't feel the need to qualify what they're referring to when they talk about men.
01:14:43.280But if it's anything to do with women or women's bodies or women's reproductive abilities, then there needs to be some sort of qualification as to what they're referring to by using the word woman.
01:14:55.400And I'm totally in favor of being inclusive with language, but I don't think that requires us making any reference to being female verboten.
01:15:07.160And I think that it's just I always try to find the most sensitive way I can word this.
01:15:15.860But when you look at who is demanding these changes, I think that speaks a lot to why it's so one sided.
01:15:23.880And what's upsetting to me as somebody who has two trans women in my family is I don't think most most trans people feel this way at all.
01:15:36.080I think they're being they're being grouped unfairly into a group of activists who are very loud and don't speak for them.
01:15:43.640I don't think most trans women or trans men want to put these restrictions on language, want to say that it's it's transphobic for women to celebrate motherhood.
01:15:52.360It's absurd. And yet this very small group of activists has managed to shut everybody else up.
01:15:58.860Not you, thankfully, not Abigail, but effectively, because your books have gotten banned in some places.
01:16:05.680You've had to fight just to have it listed online at Target.
01:16:08.840Why? Because this small group will say Target's bigoted.
01:16:13.320You're bigoted. I'm bigoted for having the conversation.
01:16:15.860And, you know, unless more people just, I guess, become OK with being called names.
01:16:20.720We're going to lose this fight and to the detriment of little girls, middle school, adolescent girls and women as well.
01:16:28.900Why did why should J.K. Rowling have to go through this shit?
01:16:31.080I realize she's a billionaire and people are like, screw her.
01:16:33.740Why should she have to go through this just for her expressing her opinion?
01:16:41.440And I'm concerned about what the repercussions of this, what the consequences will be for trans people.
01:16:48.460So not for the activists who are the very vocal minority who claim to speak for the entire community.
01:16:57.820And I don't even think the most aggressive and malicious activists necessarily represent all trans activists.
01:17:05.360But they definitely don't represent the community.
01:17:08.520And I think people are going along with this right now because they're afraid.
01:17:13.320But I do think there there could potentially be a backlash to the community because the average person says, look at the things that these activists are asking for.
01:17:43.140I worry about what the long term effects are going to be because the activists do not represent what most people in the community are thinking or feeling.
01:17:51.420You get into the book, something I mentioned in passing, which is trans boys, sorry, trans girls.
01:17:58.740And I know it's confusing to people still getting used to language.
01:18:01.260That means identified male at birth, but thinks that they're more aligned with being a girl.
01:18:07.680So trans girls competing in girls sports and that more and more we're seeing it happen.
01:18:13.700More and more people are afraid to speak up because, I mean, look what happened to Martina Navarrola, who is a gay rights activist and icon.
01:18:22.140And she said, geez, I don't really think that the trans guys should be allowed to, or trans girls, forgive me, should be allowed to compete in women's sports.
01:18:37.700Should trans girls be allowed to compete against, they're called cis girls, you know, born as a girl and identify as a girl for your whole life, in sports?
01:18:47.320Can you tell us the example you cite in the book with Serena and Venus Williams?
01:18:58.100But I can understand why people are pushing for this, because sport can be about more than just competition.
01:19:04.340It can be about community as well and a sense of belonging.
01:19:07.700So with regard, I mean, there are biological differences associated with athletic performance.
01:19:15.540And so when you look at the Williams sisters, so they were able to, I mean, they're phenomenal, but they were still beaten by a male athlete who was ranked, I believe, 203rd in the world.
01:19:34.560So, I mean, people are pretending as though biological sex plays no role in terms of athletic performance or that there is no advantage that comes along with having been born male and undergoing male puberty.
01:19:53.920And I think most people know that's not true.
01:19:55.940So this is essentially a fairy tale that people are telling, and they're telling women who have a problem with this, and especially young women who are competing for university scholarships or opportunities that could be life-changing for them.
01:20:13.240They're telling them that they should basically just suck it up and train harder, which I don't think is fair.
01:20:17.940Right, because you point out that even the International Olympic Committee, which has had to deal with this, has said, all right, well, here's the deal.
01:20:26.320You have to make sure that your testosterone level, if you're a trans woman, is below a certain number.
01:20:32.060And then you can compete against the women, against cis women.
01:20:36.100Okay, so somebody determined what that number ought to be.
01:20:39.240But you point out in the book that this still, even this level, allows trans female athletes to compete with testosterone levels that are almost six times higher than what cis women would have.
01:20:53.100So there's still a testosterone advantage and a muscle advantage, right?
01:20:58.840I mean, it's like, it doesn't, just because you decide to transition doesn't mean soon thereafter your muscle advantage goes away.
01:21:04.900Right, and as well as your physical stature, people are acting as though if someone is taking estrogen, then that's going to completely eradicate any of these advantages.
01:21:17.760But what I find really, I don't know that thought provoking is the right way to describe this.
01:21:23.360But when you look at how this issue has been covered, people will say, why is it that these critics have such an issue with trans girls competing against girls?
01:21:35.280Why is it they also don't have an issue with trans boys competing against boys?
01:21:40.160And I'm just dumbfounded, because I think to myself, do these people have absolutely no understanding of biology?
01:21:48.720Or are they so ideologically possessed that they really think this is just about discrimination?
01:21:55.700Because otherwise, why would you even think that is a relevant thing in this conversation to consider?
01:22:02.580Right, of course not. I mean, girls transitioning to boys do not have any sort of muscle advantage or testosterone advantage over cis boys.
01:22:14.760I mean, you do, you talk in the book about, right, in the book about just sexuality in general and gender roles and sort of where we are as a society.
01:22:23.700You know, it was in the news last week that Harry Styles, he was on the cover of Vogue, he's a singer, and he, he was wearing like a dress.
01:22:34.000And Candace Owens took a shot at him, Ben Shapiro took a shot at him as like, you know, this is the erosion of masculinity and we can't survive without masculine men.
01:22:42.440I actually was wondering what you thought of it, because Harry Styles does not describe himself as non-binary or, you know, in between genders or not sure.
01:22:51.480He's like, I'm a cis man. I'm, I was born a boy. I am a guy. I'm good.
01:22:57.060But is maybe not, you know, traditionally masculine, is presenting as more feminine.
01:23:04.360And I think, you know, you can make the argument that I was making on behalf of women, on behalf of men, like maybe men would be saying, aren't tense big too?
01:23:11.280Harry can stay. He doesn't have to say he's non-binary or something other.
01:23:14.740Like, in a way, I thought maybe Harry Styles is sort of the solution to this problem by saying, you don't have to abandon your gender in order to take on things that may not be considered traditionally masculine or feminine.
01:23:27.760People sometimes, sometimes assume because of the things I say that I'm in favor of traditional gender norms.
01:23:33.820And I'm definitely not. I do understand the outrage that people voiced as a result of that cover, because I do think to some extent masculinity is pathologized.
01:23:45.700And I write about this in my book and how men are seen as toxic or inherently misogynistic or sexual predators by default.
01:24:49.280And it doesn't make me homophobic or transphobic or any of the phobics.
01:24:53.300It makes me like the vast majority of American women.
01:24:55.760I guess we we like guys who are strong, who are assertive, who don't wear dresses, who, you know, I just who are leaders, who are ambitious, who are reward oriented, all those things.
01:25:07.220And it doesn't mean there's no room in our, you know, attractive circle for people who are a little different than that.
01:25:13.340But there's nothing wrong with you if you like that kind of a man.
01:25:17.100It doesn't make those kinds of men toxic.
01:25:21.580Most women, straight women, definitely would prefer a masculine man.
01:25:26.900But the strange thing is very progressive women seem to really struggle with admitting that even to themselves.
01:25:34.740And I think part of it is also this movement now to say that sexual orientation or human sexuality is socially constructed or it's a spectrum.
01:25:44.060So that's to say, really, we should be sexually open to pretty much anyone, no matter what they look like, doesn't matter what sort of anatomy they have.
01:25:52.900And I do think whatever, whoever you're attracted to, that's totally fine.
01:25:59.140I don't think there should be stigma around people being attracted to, you know, in my research previously, I would talk to men who had many partners who were trans women.
01:26:10.140And they would feel all sorts of negative feelings about that.
01:26:15.960In many cases, they wouldn't introduce their girlfriend to their families or their friends.
01:26:42.760And in some ways, that's coercive because the way it's playing out for the lesbian community is they're being told if you are attracted to women, you should be attracted to women with a penis because biology is socially constructed.
01:27:21.180I mean, I'd love to look at a lesbian and say, but you're you're something phobic if you don't want to have sex with a penis that belongs to somebody declaring themselves a woman.
01:27:33.480How have we gotten to this place where like you're phobic unless you feel about sexuality and having sex with somebody the way I tell you to?
01:27:40.620You're you're racist if you happen to be born with this color skin.
01:27:45.920All of this is so reductive and blind to one's full humanity.
01:27:50.000It's the fact that this ideology has managed to infiltrate every area of life.
01:27:58.400And I think it's blindsided a lot of people because this was previously seen as an issue that was only in academia, that only fringe crazy people thought these things.
01:28:09.820And this would never be an issue that would actually affect people in their day to day lives.
01:28:15.100And I have a chapter dedicated to talking about why social justice is does not belong in academia, how it's actually destroying academia, how cancel culture has become such a problem within the sciences.
01:28:27.480And I would really encourage anyone who does not feel.
01:28:33.000Who feels unsettled about the direction we're headed in to really speak out about it, because I think people live in fear.
01:28:41.600And when you don't know what that's going to feel like, it's worse.
01:28:46.020The apprehension is worse than actually going through it.
01:28:48.380And I've been mobbed multiple times on social media.
01:28:51.560I have people calling me all kinds of names.
01:28:54.000I always tell people the first mobbing is always the worst one.
01:28:57.040And then once you get through that, you're fine.
01:29:00.020And people can say whatever they want about you because you know who you are.
01:29:03.680People who love you and know you are not going to think those things about you.
01:29:08.200And living in fear is no way to live your life.
01:29:12.340Because at the end of the day, even if you say the right things and you bow your head down and you go along with what they're telling you to say and do, they will turn on you.
01:29:23.480Even if you're a minority woman like you are, who's of the left, who's dedicated her life to, you know, researching issues that were considered verboten and that were supposed to be empowering to women and to people who are marginalized, turned on you in an instant.
01:29:40.680And you talk in the book about how you've been disowned.
01:30:44.860And I think especially with the children, when they start detransitioning, when the lawsuits start happening, that's really going to be a turning point.
01:30:53.660And all of this ideology, all of this nonsense, especially that children are being targeted with, people are going to realize it's all going to collapse in on itself.
01:31:01.420When the children realize what a generation allowed to happen to them because they were too afraid to speak up or say what's real, what we all know is real, which is we need to be careful here.
01:31:39.940There are the assistants to the fighters.
01:31:42.260And then there are people who do nothing.
01:31:44.080And the only way forward is to be one or two.
01:31:46.880Like, the time to sit back and do nothing is past because we're starting to lose this.
01:31:52.140And if you don't care enough about yourself to to say something, then you got to care about the next generation who's really suffering as a result of this turn, this weird tidal wave of a turn.
01:32:05.700You know, I know you pointed out that there was a letter signed by multiple scientists published in The Guardian, 54 academics, not long ago, speaking out about this weird merger right between social justice and science.
01:32:29.960It definitely helped to draw attention to the problem.
01:32:32.340But I see what the result will be is is academics are just going to continue leaving the field.
01:32:38.180I mean, it's gotten so much worse since I left three years ago.
01:32:42.000It's gotten so much worse than I ever thought it could get.
01:32:45.380And I don't don't regret my decision to leave ever.
01:32:48.740And I think more academics, it's crazy for me since the end of gender has come out, the number of academics who have reached out to me to say they are similarly contemplating leaving the academy.
01:32:59.160They're thinking about leaving the sciences because they can't do their research properly.
01:33:03.520They don't see the point of being in an environment where you can't ask meaningful questions.
01:33:07.680So I see there also being repercussions for academia and research.
01:33:13.900And I hope that, you know, I just ask the public not to give up on science and not to give on give up on scientific papers and on the academy, because there will have to be a turning point.
01:33:24.880All the good people are going to leave and it's going to need to be rebuilt.
01:33:28.820But I really believe that's the only way forward, because science is the only way we can really have an accurate understanding or an approximation of the truth.
01:33:39.400And to know that you are not alone, you know, the number of letters you've gotten privately while people condemn you publicly, I know has been overwhelming.
01:33:49.140I get tons of notes from people saying, we're with you, we're with you, keep on fighting.
01:33:53.220They're afraid to say it publicly, but they're so grateful when someone does.
01:33:57.240And I think if you're someone thinking about speaking out, you need to remember you're you're not alone.
01:34:02.600You've got millions of people on your side who are afraid just like you are.
01:34:06.600You know, look at that woman at Smith College who spoke out, you know, sort of mild mannered Jody.
01:34:13.120But she took to the microphone and she said her piece and she continues to do so.
01:34:17.100And she's protected by the law from getting fired and saying what she feels about the social engineering going on there.
01:34:23.260Listen, before I go, I just want to ask you a couple of quick questions, because I know you're up against it quickly for parents worried about, let's say, their daughters who find themselves in a group of friends who one by one are declaring themselves trans.
01:34:42.340Because that is a very common situation.
01:34:44.300Usually it will be a very influential friend who comes out as trans.
01:34:48.000And that is the inspiration for another child saying, oh, maybe I'm a trans boy, too.
01:34:55.520I think it really comes down to the relationship you have with your child.
01:34:59.400And if they feel that they can turn to you with whatever they're going through and to talk to you about the things that they are struggling with, that's the most important thing.
01:35:08.220I mean, I guess I would say to try and limit the amount of time that they spend with that particular friend.
01:35:14.640But it can be very difficult, especially now with kids all having their own phones and and and not being monitored in some cases.
01:35:24.700I mean, kids will find a way around it no matter what, especially if they feel that something is is forbidden.
01:35:29.460That makes it all the more appealing to them.
01:35:32.180So, yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing would be just to keep the communication open and don't feel pressured to go along with something that you're not OK with.
01:35:46.660The book is called The End of Gender, debunking the myths about sex and identity in our society.
01:36:54.000Today's episode was brought to you in part by Legacy Box, the world's largest digitizer of home movies and photos.
01:37:00.820Go to LegacyBox.com slash MK for 60% off, 6-0% off while supplies last.
01:37:08.400I want to tell you that coming up later this week, we're going to have a full politics show for you so you can get all the latest on where we stand and what's going to happen next and what to expect over the next month or so.
01:37:17.220Where things continue to get crazy, right?
01:37:19.940I mean, I know Rich Lowry sort of says, what I do is I just assume the worst is going to happen and then I'm always right.
01:37:26.640He'll be here along with Eric Erickson.
01:37:29.260We're going to have Andrew Sullivan later this week, so I'm psyched to talk to him.
01:37:32.480He'll be fun because he's attacked me publicly and I've attacked him publicly and he's more on the left and I'm a little bit more on the right.
01:37:39.680He's against cancel culture and he's been really strong.
01:37:42.340And if I could do with a pen what that guy can do, I would be really proud of myself and I'd probably be in a different medium than I am right now.
01:37:48.740Anyway, check the show out later this week.
01:37:50.540You can do that by subscribing and that way we will just send it right to your inbox.