The Megyn Kelly Show - Dr. Debra Soh, on Gender, Femininity and the Dangers of Anti-Science Woke Culture ｜ Ep. 31

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00:00:31.140 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.060 Hey everyone, welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:45.580 Today on the program, we've got Debra So. 1.00

00:00:48.720 She is a neuroscientist and now journalist who wrote a book called

00:00:53.680 The End of Gender, Debunking the Myths About Sex and Identity in Our Society.

00:01:00.440 And not unlike Abigail Schreier, Debra is trying to take on some of these narratives 0.93

00:01:05.620 that we are having pushed on us in the classroom, in the psychiatrist's office,

00:01:12.260 in support groups all over the country that have only one agenda

00:01:17.440 and that is to affirm, affirm, affirm if a child walks in and says,

00:01:22.520 I might be trans.

00:01:24.220 This is problematic for all sorts of reasons

00:01:26.120 and these two women have been very brave in trying to start a discussion about it

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00:03:18.480 And now, Debra So.

00:03:22.540 Thank you so much for being here.

00:03:24.280 Thank you so much for having me.

00:03:25.780 Okay.

00:03:26.080 So you have got some impressive academic credentials.

00:03:29.220 You are a neuroscientist specializing in gender, sex, and sexual orientation.

00:03:34.600 So there you were.

00:03:35.820 You described yourself. 0.93

00:03:36.860 I love this as sort of a plain vanilla sex kind of gal, like in your own personal life. 0.83

00:03:42.800 But you thought it would be really interesting to study unusual sexual interests and sex in general. 0.63

00:03:49.160 And you got, you know, way into it and got a great job at a great lab and were doing your thing.

00:03:55.520 And then saw some stuff in the news that you started to find kind of troubling, kind of inconsistent with what you had learned as a scientist.

00:04:03.220 What was it?

00:04:04.120 Right.

00:04:04.800 So I had noticed that the climate in academia had shifted.

00:04:09.400 And this particular issue around gender transitioning in very young children was being reported on in the news in a really scientifically inaccurate way.

00:04:20.480 And so all of the news coverage at that time said that the best way for kids who are gender dysphoric, so kids who say they are born in the wrong body, that they want to live as the opposite sex,

00:04:30.320 the best way forward for them was an early transition.

00:04:34.120 So to basically live as the opposite sex, to take on a different name, maybe get a haircut or grow their hair long. 0.99

00:04:41.580 And the parents who were interviewed said that their children were flourishing.

00:04:46.440 Medical professionals were saying this was the best thing to happen to these kids.

00:04:50.540 But from a scientific perspective, all of the research literature shows that the vast majority of these kids with gender dysphoria,

00:04:57.300 they're more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood and not be transgender.

00:05:00.580 So it doesn't make sense for them to transition before puberty because there's a good chance they're going to change their minds.

00:05:08.440 So I wrote an op-ed about this and I waited about six months to publish it because I knew that there would be backlash to it.

00:05:16.120 And at the time I had planned to stay in academia, I talked to a number of my mentors and colleagues and they said to me,

00:05:23.980 they're very supportive, but they said, you know what's going to happen when this gets published.

00:05:27.280 And I came to the realization that even if I stayed in academia and waited until I had tenure to publish something like that,

00:05:34.840 it wouldn't protect me, that I would still lose my job.

00:05:37.420 So I made the decision to publish the op-ed and I work as a journalist now.

00:05:43.240 I began working as a columnist for Playboy shortly thereafter.

00:05:46.740 And now my first book, The End of Gender, is out with Simon & Schuster.

00:05:50.180 But take us back to that moment because how many years did it take you of study to get to that point where you were weighing what to do next?

00:05:58.100 Well, the funny thing is I used to also think that that was the best thing for these kids.

00:06:02.520 I did actually believe that if you have a child who is really unhappy in their birth sex and wants to live as the opposite sex, 1.00

00:06:08.820 why wouldn't you allow them to do that?

00:06:10.580 Why wouldn't you also then allow them to go on and take medical interventions like puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and get surgery? 0.99

00:06:16.840 I do support transitioning in adults.

00:06:18.940 I always want to emphasize that because research has shown transitioning can help adults.

00:06:23.420 And I also believe that adults have the mental capacity and the emotional maturity to make these kinds of life-altering decisions.

00:06:30.800 But children do not.

00:06:32.360 And it was only when I started reading the research literature and studying sexology,

00:06:37.380 which is the scientific study of sex and gender, that I realized that this narrative was very much incorrect.

00:06:42.800 And I felt it was important to speak about this and write about it

00:06:45.180 because the public, for the most part, is only being shown one side,

00:06:49.860 especially by left-leaning media outlets.

00:06:52.140 And parents who have a child who is gender dysphoric,

00:06:55.560 they are not being given all of the information that they need to know in order to make a good decision.

00:07:00.780 To the contrary, as you point out and we'll get into,

00:07:02.920 they're being shamed if they consider anything other than transition right away and support it.

00:07:07.160 But my point was, you're a PhD, right?

00:07:10.660 It takes a long time to get your PhD.

00:07:12.660 You got, what, at least eight years into it, yes?

00:07:15.580 My PhD took four and a half years.

00:07:17.560 But prior to that, yes, I did.

00:07:19.340 In total, it was about 10 plus years of schooling.

00:07:22.960 Yeah.

00:07:23.520 So you went through all of that.

00:07:25.380 You've got your degree.

00:07:26.280 You've got your dream job.

00:07:27.420 You're working as a scientist.

00:07:29.020 And I'm just saying, like, it takes a lot for someone in that position,

00:07:34.040 well-respected with accolades and accomplishments and nothing but blue sky ahead to say,

00:07:38.640 I'm walking away.

00:07:40.620 I'm not doing this anymore.

00:07:42.180 If I can't say what's real, what the science is, then I don't want to do this anymore.

00:07:49.320 I mean, that, I know, I've heard your other interviews,

00:07:51.840 and I know we usually just blow past this point, but it took real courage.

00:07:56.820 And it must have been deeply important to you.

00:07:59.480 And you're not some far-right, you know, forgive me, but like religious person who's like,

00:08:05.340 this is my moral mission.

00:08:06.660 You're a liberal.

00:08:08.520 You were a radical, you know, feminist. 1.00

00:08:11.560 You supported feminist ideology.

00:08:13.740 And as you say, you even had different views on transitioning when you went into this.

00:08:17.820 So was it scary to just say, okay, I guess I'll just be a journalist now,

00:08:23.380 where I hope I'll be allowed to write the truth?

00:08:25.320 Oh, it was terrifying when I look back on it, for sure.

00:08:30.040 I feel very, very fortunate to have had the opportunities that I've had

00:08:33.520 and that people have come out and supported me

00:08:35.740 and that the editors I work with have never told me what I could or couldn't say.

00:08:40.960 Someone like you has invited me on your show to talk about this issue.

00:08:44.840 But at the time, I mean, when I made that transition, I didn't know anybody in journalism.

00:08:48.600 I had no contacts, which probably sounds really crazy.

00:08:51.880 But I just believed really strongly that this was the message that needed to be heard.

00:08:56.040 And I also felt more broadly that sex research was not taken seriously as a discipline.

00:09:00.000 And I thought, well, if I become a journalist, that can be part of my goals as well.

00:09:04.240 Because my colleagues, they work so hard to be taken seriously in their work and to get funding.

00:09:09.580 And then when their studies come out, in many cases, they are misrepresented by the media.

00:09:14.260 They're seen as salacious.

00:09:17.220 And so that's been another part of my goals as a journalist,

00:09:21.480 is to reflect what the science says about human sexuality more broadly.

00:09:26.260 Because I do think that's really important in terms of us being able to understand who we are.

00:09:30.260 Well, I think not a lot of people totally understand that, that our sexual preferences.

00:09:37.120 I mean, there's a we'll get into this, but there's obviously a big push to understand that gay and lesbian folks are driven by neuroscience,

00:09:43.520 by something that happened in their brains and not just a choice.

00:09:46.600 Although now the messaging on that's getting so confused.

00:09:49.140 But when you're when you're studying sex, sexual preferences, sexual identity, orientation, all of that, you're studying the brain.

00:09:55.920 That's what that's what you're an expert in the brain.

00:09:58.680 Yes, I was using brain imaging techniques.

00:10:01.080 So this included functional MRI and structural MRI to better understand sexual preferences.

00:10:06.660 My my expertise was in paraphilias, which are unusual sexual preferences, sexual orientation,

00:10:12.520 which I have to emphasize because the word preference preferences is misused nowadays.

00:10:16.800 When I say preferences, I mean sexual preferences that cannot be changed because sexual orientation is immutable.

00:10:22.760 And I was also studying hypersexuality.

00:10:24.920 So it's legitimate science.

00:10:26.420 I mean, the technology is incredible in terms of what we're able to do and the questions we're able to probe.

00:10:32.000 But I find it really upsetting to see how biology and biological explanations really are being denigrated now by people who, in many cases, know nothing about the field.

00:10:41.640 They know nothing about what the research literature says.

00:10:43.900 They have just simply decided that biology is threatening.

00:10:46.220 And so they shut down and intimidate academics so that they can push their particular political agendas.

00:10:53.020 Now, I know I have to just take a little trip down this side lane with you for a minute, because I got to ask you if you're studying, you know, how did you put it?

00:11:02.840 I'm in my head.

00:11:03.820 It's sexual oddities.

00:11:05.600 But like our sexual proclivities.

00:11:07.300 Paraphilias.

00:11:07.900 Yeah, they're kinks. 1.00

00:11:08.360 OK, perfect.

00:11:09.240 OK, kinks. 0.98

00:11:09.660 Was there one that stood out to you as particularly odd?

00:11:15.640 Well, the thing is, so I found it super fascinating.

00:11:18.000 As you mentioned, I'm vanilla in my personal life, which people often find it difficult to believe.

00:11:22.300 But I'm not kinky.

00:11:23.460 I found it so fascinating because there are so many different paraphilias.

00:11:27.340 Because I really found it interesting to hear what people are into, why they're into it.

00:11:31.720 And I also wanted to help remove the stigma and shame that often comes along with having an unusual sexual preference.

00:11:37.700 But I would say one of my all time favorites is probably vorerophilia, which is the sexual fantasy of being swallowed whole by an animal. 0.67

00:11:48.240 Stop it. 0.94

00:11:49.680 It's pretty amazing.

00:11:50.680 I wish I could experience this, actually, but in some cases being rebirthed.

00:11:57.020 So the process of either being pulled back up into the uterus or being birthed out of the canal. 0.80

00:12:03.220 So it sounds really unusual, but I think it's interesting to me.

00:12:08.620 And I think by understanding that there's so much shame around it, by understanding it and talking about it and talking about sex like it's no different from anything else.

00:12:15.720 I think that would do people a lot of good.

00:12:18.660 Okay, but let me let me just say what everybody's thinking.

00:12:21.760 That is weird.

00:12:23.240 I know we're not supposed to stigmatize, but wow, that's weird.

00:12:26.800 And are you did you conclude there's something in the brain that develops that that drives that proclivity?

00:12:33.040 I found that there are and there's a larger body of research to suggest that paraphilias are innate in that they are with someone from a very young age.

00:12:44.560 They cannot be changed and that whatever it is that someone finds sexually interesting, if it's very unusual, there's a biological component to that.

00:12:54.620 So previously, it was believed to be purely a social thing or that it's something that someone learned.

00:12:58.660 I think it's a combination of both.

00:13:00.520 But the main takeaway is that if someone has a paraphilia, it's not something that they can change.

00:13:04.900 So if they're really into something sexually, they can't suppress that, especially not in men.

00:13:10.100 They can't suppress that and be interested in something else.

00:13:13.780 Another question on this, because a lot of people talked about this when Harvey Weinstein was in the news for all of his oddities and abuse.

00:13:20.680 I mean, it was obviously abuse, but it seemed like with him, he almost needed an element of shame for his pleasure.

00:13:29.760 You know, like he needed to be doing something that was just verboten in order to get there.

00:13:37.480 And I remember thinking that's got to be some sort of a psychological thing.

00:13:41.660 There's just like that's not a thing that most people have.

00:13:44.940 Like in order to sort of get there sexually, you need to be feeling ashamed of yourself or bad or awful.

00:13:50.500 Did you look at his case at all?

00:13:52.020 Did you have any feelings when you heard the stories about him?

00:13:55.160 I did write about him.

00:13:56.400 So it's difficult for me to say definitively because I've never met him and I haven't sat down and obviously done a full proper assessment.

00:14:03.220 I don't do clinical work anymore.

00:14:04.820 But from the coverage I read, my sense is for people, I have worked with sex offenders.

00:14:10.520 I've worked with them both in a research capacity and clinically previously.

00:14:14.800 One of the biggest factors involved in sexual offending or coercive sex is antisocial personality disorder.

00:14:22.540 So people with antisocial personality disorder really don't care about anybody else.

00:14:26.580 Everyone is really at their disposal for whatever it is that they need them for.

00:14:32.380 So in the case of sex, I mean, it's obviously coercive sex is a part of that.

00:14:37.240 But there's also a paraphilia called coercive paraphilia where these individuals actually prefer coercive sex.

00:14:43.580 They do not enjoy sex in which their partner is not actively trying to restrain or essentially fight them off, which is really disturbing.

00:14:53.260 The narrative that rape or sexual assault is about power is not accurate.

00:14:59.360 This is something I see everywhere.

00:15:01.380 And I think if we are trying to really understand sexual offending behavior and to stop it, we have to understand the root causes accurately.

00:15:10.540 And if you actually sit down and talk to a sexual offender, I mean, most of them, the vast majority of them are lying through their teeth.

00:15:16.320 But when you understand the research literature and how their minds work, it's always antisociality.

00:15:22.680 In some cases, it's a paraphilia.

00:15:24.500 For someone who enjoys seeing their partners suffering, they could be sadistic.

00:15:29.320 So I would say those are those are probably factors that would be potentially explanations.

00:15:36.240 Right. It's not to excuse it.

00:15:37.580 It's to understand it.

00:15:39.560 No, exactly.

00:15:41.280 So can I just round back?

00:15:43.400 Like if you want to be swallowed by an animal whole, like what are those?

00:15:46.300 Do they hang out with pythons?

00:15:47.560 Like what are they?

00:15:48.240 How does one even go about satisfying that?

00:15:50.380 I'm just curious.

00:15:51.260 Well, that's the thing, because, well, pythons are not able to unfortunately swallow us whole.

00:15:55.540 I mean, I guess some of them are the bigger ones, but usually it revolves around a lot of imagination.

00:16:04.540 So they'll write stories.

00:16:06.460 They'll make cartoons or not anime, but like animated images.

00:16:14.940 Do you know what I mean?

00:16:15.560 I'm not explaining this very well.

00:16:16.500 But it's basically a way to think about it and and live through it without actually physically doing it.

00:16:25.680 And so that's the case for a lot of paraphilias is that they some of them can't be realized in real life.

00:16:31.000 So the next best thing is to read descriptions of it or see images of it, even if they're not real images.

00:16:38.780 Because my big thing with paraphilias are as long as they are consensual, it's no one's place to judge.

00:16:44.040 It's only when it goes into the realm of being non-consensual that I have a problem with it.

00:16:49.080 Right.

00:16:49.740 Well, I mean, it's a fascinating, a fascinating field of study.

00:16:52.460 You know, I'm talking about Trump for a living and you're doing that.

00:16:55.780 I just like your job sounds really interesting.

00:16:57.860 So that's just by way of background and how you got, I mean, really effectively forced out of your out of your chosen profession, because you you hit the one third rail you may not discuss in in your profession as a scientist, which is what's real about biological sex?

00:17:16.860 Is it a spectrum?

00:17:18.180 Is gender a social construct?

00:17:20.180 And you're very clear in your book that biological sex is male or female, period.

00:17:28.440 And gender is biological. 0.98

00:17:31.140 It's it is not it's not a social construct.

00:17:34.040 And for this, you've been called a bigot, even a racist and a Nazi, which is weird, sort of a weird turn, because this has now become controversial.

00:17:44.240 But let me just ask you straight up, is there any doubt in your mind that biology is either male or female, biological sex is either male or female or that gender, too, is biological?

00:17:57.180 It is not a social construct.

00:17:59.800 No, there's no doubt in my mind.

00:18:01.220 And I by saying these things, I don't believe that this invalidates intersex or trans people.

00:18:06.620 And we can talk about why.

00:18:08.400 And it also doesn't say that culture plays no role in shaping gender.

00:18:13.980 But definitely, biology is the larger determinant in terms of gender, gender identity, gender expression.

00:18:21.000 You write in your book that biology has effectively been canceled.

00:18:24.100 It's canceled.

00:18:25.100 It's been stigmatized.

00:18:26.940 We're rejecting biology and science.

00:18:29.100 I mean, the same people who are telling us we need to listen to science when it comes to things like the environment.

00:18:33.280 You know, liberals are telling us we can't listen to biology when it comes to gender, sex. 0.59

00:18:41.740 And and why?

00:18:43.960 Like, why is that?

00:18:45.000 Because they they're trying to be supportive of people who don't identify as male or female.

00:18:52.880 I think part of it is that many people who deny biology, as I mentioned earlier, they don't understand it.

00:18:59.380 They they see it as hateful.

00:19:01.340 I think we can acknowledge that a large part of who we are is predetermined and dictated by hormonal exposure in the womb.

00:19:10.420 But that's not to say that we aren't capable of making our own choices or having a meaningful life.

00:19:16.020 And I think when it comes to, say, the trans community or the intersex community, these individuals and activists believe that we have to pretend biology doesn't exist or biological sex doesn't exist in order to advocate for equal rights for these communities.

00:19:32.060 And I don't agree with that.

00:19:33.260 I think that we can acknowledge biology is real and still say that these communities deserve equal rights, respect, legal protections.

00:19:42.020 And especially for people who are transgender, who transition, if biological sex didn't exist, what is the purpose of transitioning?

00:19:50.560 Why would they need to transition?

00:19:51.980 Because what would they be transitioning from and to?

00:19:54.140 But the interesting thing is now that the word transgender, the umbrella, so-called umbrella, has expanded to include people who identify as non-binary, which is a third gender, which is essentially a mix of both genders or neither.

00:20:09.740 It also has the term transgender has also now encompassed gender non-conforming people.

00:20:14.180 I've got to stop you there.

00:20:16.340 No one's with us anymore because it gets so confusing.

00:20:18.620 And I know there's so many terms.

00:20:19.680 But you've got transgender people who identify as the opposite sex. 1.00

00:20:24.680 And then you've got non-binary who they're not sure.

00:20:28.340 Like they say, I don't identify as a woman or a man or identify as both.

00:20:32.440 But it could be fluid, right?

00:20:34.260 I mean, but non-binary sort of encompasses people who haven't exactly chosen a lane.

00:20:40.520 Well, they've chosen a lane and the lane is neither male or female.

00:20:43.740 So it's in the book, I go through a whole long list.

00:20:46.640 There are so many different ones.

00:20:48.300 The most common ones would be, as you mentioned, gender fluid, gender neutral, gender queer.

00:20:53.180 I don't like to use that word because to me, queer is a slur against the gay community, agender, bigender.

00:20:59.440 And so essentially they're saying they are not male or female.

00:21:02.600 And they tend to non-binary people tend to go by they, them pronouns, although there's a whole other litany of pronouns that they may also use.

00:21:10.440 OK, so, I mean, if you're explaining this to your kid, because I've had to explain this to my kids where they come home from school and they're like, well, my teacher said that there are up to 100 genders, you know, something like that.

00:21:21.960 Or, you know, at least in Europe, they have three or four.

00:21:24.500 Here they have over 100.

00:21:25.400 We say that's not correct.

00:21:28.620 There are two genders, male and female.

00:21:31.260 And then there are folks who who don't identify as either male or female.

00:21:37.140 That's sort of how we sum it up.

00:21:38.580 I don't believe there's over 100 genders.

00:21:40.040 But what do you say?

00:21:42.000 There are two genders.

00:21:43.160 That's what's backed by science.

00:21:44.540 I do think people can identify however they want and I'll be respectful and use whatever pronoun they want.

00:21:49.280 But from a scientific perspective, there are two.

00:21:51.800 So I think what you're telling your kids is fantastic.

00:21:55.260 So people who say gender is a social construct are the people who don't want to have the doctor say their baby is a boy or a girl when the baby's born.

00:22:06.500 You know, you describe them in the book as this growing trend toward babies.

00:22:10.620 People are having babies because they don't want their their baby identified as a boy or a girl.

00:22:16.440 And they're going to let their baby figure out whether they're a boy or a girl as they get older.

00:22:20.840 They they basically think that that your biology, your anatomy has nothing to do with your gender. 0.99

00:22:29.020 That's essentially what they think.

00:22:31.120 My understanding anyway, they they will.

00:22:33.220 So if they are parenting babies, they will not tell people the sex of the baby.

00:22:37.560 They say that they want the child to be able to decide their own gender.

00:22:42.980 They'll use language like sex assigned at birth, which is not accurate.

00:22:47.380 I don't like language like that because it makes it sound as though the physician arbitrarily determined what a child's sex is.

00:22:54.600 When statistically speaking, that determination will be correct 99 times out of 100 because only about 1% of the population is intersex.

00:23:03.580 But these parents treat it as though this is something that there's a high likelihood of.

00:23:09.080 And again, I'm fully in support of intersex people, but even intersex people, the vast majority will say that they want to live as a binary sex.

00:23:16.960 They don't want to live as a...

00:23:18.040 Can you define intersex?

00:23:20.220 Intersex are people who have possessed anatomy that is not characteristic of male or female.

00:23:28.840 So in some cases, they will have, say, a female external appearance, but have male internal organs, or they'll have ambiguous genitalia.

00:23:40.040 So when they're born in the doctor...

00:23:41.000 Is that what we used to refer to as a hermaphrodite?

00:23:43.900 Yes, previously, but that's now considered in sensitive terms.

00:23:47.880 So now people prefer to use intersex to describe that.

00:23:51.360 So with these parents, I think, I'd like to think that they have good intentions, but you will see cases now where parents will go one step further, and they will now say that their child is non-binary.

00:24:06.580 So their child is a third gender. 0.92

00:24:08.500 And for the most part, children don't have any understanding of gender until they're probably about age five.

00:24:14.340 So children say all kinds of things.

00:24:17.520 They don't understand that a person's gender doesn't change over time.

00:24:20.520 So you can't take what a child says about their gender at face value.

00:24:24.400 And I think in many cases, it's just parents trying to project their own politics on their kids, or they're using their kids as a way to show off in terms of how progressive or open-minded they are.

00:24:34.500 And as you mentioned, I'm a liberal.

00:24:35.860 I still consider myself to be progressive on many issues.

00:24:38.700 But to me, this is wholly inappropriate.

00:24:41.440 I mean, working out your own issues on your kids in any way is inappropriate, but this is particularly dangerous because it can lead to real psychological damage and physical damage.

00:24:51.800 That's what Abigail Schreier is saying in her book, Irreversible Damage.

00:24:54.760 And I know, I'm sure you know Abigail, and I've seen what she's doing on this work as well.

00:24:59.220 Yeah.

00:24:59.540 But just to take a step back.

00:25:00.940 So let's say, you know, when the baby's born, there is a way of knowing biological sex.

00:25:07.380 And what is it?

00:25:08.280 I mean, is it anatomy? 1.00

00:25:09.660 Is it boys have penises, girls have vaginas? 1.00

00:25:12.420 Or is it something, what determines boy or girl? 1.00

00:25:15.220 Well, biological sex is determined by gametes.

00:25:17.700 So these are mature reproductive cells.

00:25:19.740 So eggs or sperm.

00:25:21.280 When a baby is born, typically the doctor will make an assessment based on the external genitalia.

00:25:26.380 In some cases, they can do chromosomal testing.

00:25:29.700 But for the most part, I don't think parents have to worry that the doctor is necessarily wrong.

00:25:36.600 I think in the event that a child is intersex and you learn of that, leave, I mean, the biggest thing I would say to take away from that is intersex people should have bodily autonomy. 0.99

00:25:48.080 And that's the other thing I think activists are pushing for by this conception that biological sex doesn't exist or that it's a spectrum because they are saying intersex children especially should not be forced to undergo surgeries that they did not consent to.

00:26:02.140 And I totally agree with that.

00:26:03.540 I think people should be left alone.

00:26:05.260 And if someone decides that when they are old enough, that's something that they want to do, that's their choice.

00:26:10.380 Or if they choose not to undergo surgery, then that should be perfectly fine, too.

00:26:13.960 But it's not accurate to say that a doctor's estimation is completely wrong or that as a result, we should just treat it as though a child is that that these external markers don't mean anything.

00:26:28.220 And that's what I'm seeing.

00:26:29.380 I mean, we see medical organizations adopting this particular language, which I don't find helpful.

00:26:34.680 I think it's just confusing to people.

00:26:36.440 Well, and if it's all based on intersex children, which are only 1% of children born, why on earth would we be changing the entire references for boys and girls for gender based on 1%, a very rare condition, relatively speaking?

00:26:52.240 I mean, it also includes people who just think, I don't know whether my kid is going to identify with the biological sex, and so I'm going to keep that door open so he doesn't get tortured, you know, being born in a body that is a boy, but actually later identifying as a girl.

00:27:06.520 And I've socialized him as a boy all these years, and I effectively tortured him, so I'm just going to let it unfold as nature intended.

00:27:12.980 But that too, that too could cause real problems.

00:27:17.020 And yet, we've really gone down this lane.

00:27:19.600 I mean, you point out in your book that there's some hospital, was it in Ohio?

00:27:22.940 I can't remember where it was.

00:27:23.860 That's like, they've gotten rid of the-

00:27:25.300 I think it was Colorado.

00:27:26.600 Yeah, so they've gotten rid of the identification boy or girl on the little bracelet that the baby gets in the hospital when he's born or she's born and the mommy gets.

00:27:35.720 I mean, that's like, those are in part necessary just to identify whose baby is whose and whether you have the right kid.

00:27:41.720 It's insane now.

00:27:42.520 They've taken that off, what, to be politically correct?

00:27:45.740 My sense is people are terrified of being called transphobic.

00:27:49.420 They're terrified of being called a bigot.

00:27:51.660 And when you say the things that I say, you get called those things even if you aren't.

00:27:56.400 So this is what's happened.

00:27:57.980 It's been this real push from the activists.

00:28:01.620 And the bullying and the intimidation is real.

00:28:04.680 I mean, people suffer real consequences to their careers if they speak out about this or if they go against it.

00:28:09.940 So this is where we end up, where there are policies and guidelines being put into place that I don't think are actually necessarily beneficial to anyone.

00:28:21.380 I don't think they're even necessarily good for the communities for which they claim to be protecting.

00:28:27.320 And yeah, especially with the idea that gender is a social construct.

00:28:30.960 I mean, this is everywhere now.

00:28:32.300 And you see very little pushback about this.

00:28:34.720 In 2017, when James Damore's infamous Google memo leaked to the public and he argued that gender is not a social construct and that occupational preferences are not due to sexism.

00:28:48.560 I thought that would be a turning point.

00:28:51.460 I mean, I publicly defended him.

00:28:53.940 I thought it would be a turning point, but it's only gotten worse since then.

00:28:58.280 More with Debra in just one minute. 0.95

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00:30:06.360 So just to take a step back, biological sex is either male or female.

00:30:15.680 It's determined by gametes, meaning sperm or eggs, basically, cells.

00:30:21.980 Gender, you point out in the book.

00:30:24.240 Okay, so there's two things so the audience can understand.

00:30:26.660 There's your gender identity and your gender expression.

00:30:31.940 Your gender identity is what?

00:30:33.580 Your gender identity is either male or female, and this refers to how you feel in relation to your biological sex.

00:30:41.240 So most people who are born male will feel male internally or they will identify as male.

00:30:46.820 Most people who are born female will identify as female.

00:30:50.060 So if you're not one of those people, if you're trans, your gender identity does not match up with your biological sex.

00:30:56.680 That's right.

00:30:57.100 And then gender expression is how you choose to sort of present to yourself, like dress, makeup, hair, that kind of thing?

00:31:04.360 Exactly.

00:31:05.280 And you say that both gender identity, whether you align with your biological sex, and gender expression, whether you choose to do, you know, makeup and dresses and that kind of thing as a guy, for example, that those two are biologically determined.

00:31:20.640 That's interesting.

00:31:21.820 How can that be?

00:31:23.000 Why is that?

00:31:23.540 It goes back to the prenatal environment and testosterone exposure.

00:31:27.540 So higher levels of exposure to testosterone are associated with more male typical interests and behaviors.

00:31:35.160 With the example of men wearing makeup, that's an interesting one because it can be due to this, but it can also be due to a paraphilia, which is different.

00:31:44.920 And we can talk about that.

00:31:46.000 But by and large, when I talk about gender identity, it has to do with prenatal hormonal exposure.

00:31:55.000 So if you are a boy who you don't think you're trans, but maybe you're a more feminine guy, you're just more feminine, that is probably biological.

00:32:11.860 Yes. And the other thing with prenatal testosterone exposure is higher levels are also associated with sexual interest in women.

00:32:20.760 So for gay men, they are on average exposed to lower levels of testosterone.

00:32:29.240 So they are more likely to be feminine.

00:32:32.740 I'm someone who grew up in the gay community.

00:32:34.820 So I just want to say that I'm fully in support of gay rights.

00:32:37.460 I don't think there's anything wrong with being gay.

00:32:39.420 But research has shown that it's likely due to lower levels of exposure to testosterone, which is what you also see with women who are sexually attracted to men.

00:32:48.660 Well, and this is what we've been told for years by by folks in the gay community who are trying to say, stop targeting us.

00:32:56.400 Stop telling us we can't serve in the military.

00:32:58.020 Stop telling us we can't get married because we were we were born with this sexual orientation and we don't we don't want to be punished and we don't want to be sent to conversion camps because it's biological and we can't be converted.

00:33:11.040 Exactly. So sexual orientation cannot be changed if someone is gay or bisexual, they cannot be made to be straight. 0.68

00:33:20.000 And so I do think conversion therapy for sexual orientation is not effective.

00:33:25.540 It's not ethical. I don't support it.

00:33:28.320 However, there's been a movement more recently to lump gender identity into conversion therapy bands, which is not appropriate.

00:33:37.560 And that's because gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing.

00:33:41.700 And gender identity, especially in young children, can change with development.

00:33:46.780 Yeah. In other words, now they're using the abhorrence for conversion therapy, like when we try to take our gay children and make them straight.

00:33:54.880 Right. Like however people were trying to do that, they're using that as a way of saying, trying to stop your allegedly trans kid from transitioning at age five is the same as conversion therapy.

00:34:10.060 And your point is, it's not at all.

00:34:12.380 They're two totally separate things.

00:34:14.000 There are two different things, but I think activist groups have been very savvy in the way that they've marketed this to the public because people, and I believe rightfully so, are really against conversion therapy for sexual orientation. 0.95

00:34:27.560 They know that it's harmful and that it doesn't work.

00:34:30.660 And so now if you say, well, this also includes gender identity, who wants to be the person to say, actually, I don't have an issue with so-called conversion therapy for gender identity.

00:34:39.860 And so we see actually in Canada, where I am based in Toronto, we see a law, a bill that's about to be passed into law that's actually going to criminalize any therapeutic interventions that do not facilitate transitioning in children.

00:34:55.180 And so mental health professionals cannot do their jobs properly.

00:34:58.240 If you potentially face five years in prison for asking someone who is gender dysphoric, why do you feel that way?

00:35:05.640 What else is going on in your life that could lead you to feel this way?

00:35:08.920 No one's going to do that.

00:35:10.140 Who's going to risk that?

00:35:11.440 And so I see the effects of this being really devastating in a few years because these children are going to be changing their minds.

00:35:21.440 Well, and it's madness because the stats are not the same.

00:35:24.560 You tell me, I'm guessing that virtually no child who thinks he's gay or thinks she's a lesbian grows out of it. 0.81

00:35:34.880 Like your sexual orientation is what it is. 0.72

00:35:37.140 I don't, since it is biological, they don't tend to grow out of it.

00:35:40.920 But people do grow out of gender dysphoria where you think your sexual or your gender identity doesn't match up with your biological sex.

00:35:51.260 And that's a large number, right?

00:35:52.720 Tell us what the numbers are for kids who think they're born in, quote, the wrong body, who then grow out of it and turn out to be totally in the right body.

00:35:59.240 And they understand that.

00:36:00.420 Across all of the studies that we currently have, it's approximately 60 to 90 percent.

00:36:05.400 So it is the vast majority.

00:36:07.200 But the other thing is with this narrative.

00:36:08.880 So with sexual orientation, gay and lesbian people will say, I knew from a very young age, I've always felt this way.

00:36:14.820 It can't be changed no matter how much I try.

00:36:17.900 I don't think they should have to try.

00:36:19.740 But the way that some trans activists also speak about their experiences of gender dysphoria, they discuss it in a similar way.

00:36:29.180 They say that they felt this way since they were very young and it can't be changed.

00:36:33.800 They try to change it and they try to fight it and they couldn't.

00:36:36.240 But the thing is, in many cases, I mean, there's a there's a subtype within, say, trans women.

00:36:42.320 So people born male who identifies female.

00:36:45.060 There are some who experience gender dysphoria from a very young age.

00:36:49.780 But there are some who also don't experience it until the onset of puberty.

00:36:53.120 And that's a completely different subset.

00:36:55.360 And what's happening is that subset is is claiming that the children are the same when they're not.

00:37:03.140 They're two different presentations.

00:37:04.640 So that's another way in which I think the public is being basically pushed or coerced along to agreeing with this because they think, well, the narratives are the same as people who are gay.

00:37:15.440 So who who are we to question that?

00:37:17.920 Mm hmm.

00:37:18.980 Right.

00:37:19.240 They're trying.

00:37:19.860 I think a lot of these folks are trying to be supportive, kind, loving, nonbullying and and not Neanderthal like.

00:37:27.040 That's what they're trying to do.

00:37:28.540 But without pausing to ask themselves what what is supportive is being supportive, letting my 16 year old have a double mastectomy because she's going through potentially just a phase where she's unhappy.

00:37:43.780 She doesn't like her pubescent body. 1.00

00:37:45.520 Like you got to really figure out what does supportive mean, because you could be actually feeding into an unhealthy phase your child's going through that if left alone, she or he would totally grow out of.

00:37:59.200 So so what do you think?

00:38:00.980 Like, what is the age for parents out there wondering?

00:38:03.260 I mean, I think most parents, most wouldn't be looking at their three year old boy who wants to wear dresses and say, oh, he's a girl.

00:38:08.820 He's a girl. But what what is the age where you start to take them, you know, very seriously on claims that they're in the wrong body?

00:38:17.300 One more point I wanted to make, actually, that conversion therapy is that now the push to allow kids to transition, the kids who are gender dysphoric, it is the new conversion therapy. 0.51

00:38:29.380 And many of my colleagues who do therapy will say this, because what you're doing is you're essentially taking these children who would have otherwise grown up to be gay in adulthood.

00:38:36.940 And because they're transitioning, when they grow up, they're going to appear to be straight, because if you have a very feminine little boy, parents, some parents, I think, know that there's a chance their son's going to grow up to be a gay man and be attracted to men. 0.85

00:38:49.460 But if that little boy transitions to female when she grows up and she's attracted to men, she's going to appear to be a straight woman. 1.00

00:38:55.500 Can I say I saw that in your book, but I don't understand that, because it to me, when I picture that parent who's like, I don't want him to be gay, I don't want her to be a lesbian. 0.93

00:39:03.580 That doesn't seem like a parent who's going to say, like, so let's change her sex altogether. 1.00

00:39:07.820 Now I'm going to make him I'm going to make him be a girl. 1.00

00:39:09.840 That just doesn't sound congruous.

00:39:11.960 But you tell me.

00:39:13.720 You would think so.

00:39:14.820 And I mean, I do get critics who say that to me, that parents are not more accepting of trans children than they are of gay children.

00:39:22.180 But I have colleagues who do therapy who will tell me this, that the parents are fully on board with this idea of transitioning their child because their child won't appear to be gay.

00:39:33.340 What other examples can I give you?

00:39:35.220 I mean, I've talked to some detransitioners who would tell me that when they decided to detransition, their parents were not supportive because they knew that they were lesbian and they didn't want them to be lesbian.

00:39:45.660 I don't think all parents who make this decision are necessarily coming from a place of being homophobic.

00:39:52.720 But I do think it's an issue that we're not talking about and that these parents are being lauded as though they're forward thinking and they're loving when it's really not the case.

00:40:02.720 Right.

00:40:03.280 So it's it's homophobic conversion therapy.

00:40:05.740 It's a it's a socially accepted homophobic conversion therapy.

00:40:09.500 Oh, my gosh.

00:40:10.760 I mean, like that is that's dark and it's dramatic and it's awful.

00:40:15.500 And these parents are feeding into a system that you now point out is managed by doctors who in Canada and more and more here are being told there's only one thing to do.

00:40:24.500 Affirm.

00:40:25.360 Don't even question.

00:40:26.860 Don't even ask.

00:40:28.080 Are you going through a divorce in your family?

00:40:30.280 Did you recently suffer some sort of a tragedy?

00:40:32.520 Has this child been bullied?

00:40:34.400 Is there something going on with him or her physically or with respect to the kids at school?

00:40:38.760 Oh, you're not supposed to get into that as if one psychological state has absolutely nothing to do with the inquiry about whether a child should transition.

00:40:49.180 Yeah, it's seen as hateful.

00:40:50.660 It's seen as hateful to try and understand whether the gender dysphoria could be explained by other factors.

00:40:56.060 But going to your question about the the appropriate age in an ideal world, parents would be able to take their child to a mental health professional and the professional would be able to do a proper assessment and determine is this something how long has the child been feeling this way?

00:41:14.900 If they transition, is this really going to be the best decision for them?

00:41:19.200 Because this is a lifelong decision.

00:41:20.880 If you do undergo these medical interventions, they are lifelong and they come with potentially irreversible side effects that someone will have to live with if they do decide not to take them anymore.

00:41:33.140 So that is not where we are in the climate right now, because, as I mentioned, clinicians now they face potentially going to prison.

00:41:41.840 I know in the U.S. that 20 states have bans on conversion therapy, which include gender identity in that.

00:41:47.840 But so what you see instead is that all of the therapists who do this work are activism driven.

00:41:55.200 And so they will just affirm.

00:41:58.060 So what would you do?

00:41:58.900 I mean, what would you tell a parent to do?

00:42:00.600 Because I tell you, if this ever happened to me, I would not be taking them to one of these therapists.

00:42:04.280 That does not sound safe or smart or based in science.

00:42:08.260 So where would you go?

00:42:09.800 What would you do?

00:42:10.300 No, and from the conversations I've had with parents, they will say to me the worst decision they made was actually to take their children to gender therapists, because the therapist makes it even more difficult for the child to not decide to transition.

00:42:25.980 I would say seek out any support you can that is not in favor of this jump on the bandwagon early transitioning.

00:42:37.160 There are a few clinicians who are willing to do that work.

00:42:40.600 They're very few and far between.

00:42:42.460 Most of them are close to retirement, so they don't care if they get fired and they don't really care what people have to say about them.

00:42:48.860 I would say the most important thing is to love your child no matter what and to try and have your relationship revolve around other things than their gender or whatever, however they're feeling about their gender.

00:43:00.480 To take the pressure off in that way and to just support them more generally.

00:43:06.820 I mean, I think for a lot of these kids, and as you mentioned, it can be a phase for a lot of them.

00:43:11.920 They are expressing genuine distress.

00:43:15.660 And nowadays, because gender is so trendy, that's the way that they're expressing it.

00:43:20.160 But in many cases, there are other mental health conditions.

00:43:22.940 Often there is a diagnosis of autism.

00:43:30.360 In many cases, they are gay or lesbian.

00:43:33.860 Many of them have a history of sexual trauma.

00:43:37.080 And that's not being addressed at all.

00:43:39.040 Others have eating disorders.

00:43:41.480 So it's really important that those issues are talked about.

00:43:46.100 It's difficult for parents to know what's going on in therapy, but that would be my advice.

00:43:55.060 And just to not feel bad about questioning it, because parents are also being shamed if they question what their child is telling them,

00:44:02.700 or if they question the mental health professional, or if they question the teachers and doctors.

00:44:07.480 And I think most parents, I mean, parents know their children the best.

00:44:11.020 So don't ever feel bad for having that gut feeling that something is not right.

00:44:16.820 I know you point out in the book that the American Journal of Psychiatry concluded 61% of patients presenting with gender dysphoria,

00:44:25.340 you know, where they think they might be a boy when they've been born a girl, have another psychological disorder.

00:44:33.280 61% presenting with gender dysphoria have another psychological disorder.

00:44:38.400 So to pretend that we shouldn't, you know, try to connect those dots or figure out whether it's that other psychological disorder driving the decision to want to cut off your breasts and prevent yourself really from being fertile.

00:44:54.420 You know, we talk about this with Abigail, that if you go on puberty blockers, you never let your child have puberty, go into puberty, and then give your child cross-sex hormones.

00:45:05.320 She's infertile. 1.00

00:45:06.340 She will never have a baby.

00:45:08.560 She will never breastfeed a baby.

00:45:09.900 She, it's, it's done.

00:45:11.140 So you're making a lifelong, irreversible decision for somebody who, again, as she's pointing out in, as you point out, the American Journal of Psychiatry pointed out that in the vast majority of these cases has another psychological disorder.

00:45:23.700 And now the poor parents can't even, like, probe that in a productive way because the psychiatrists are being told, you got to side with the kid, side with the declaration of being trans in all cases, or you're a bigot and you're in trouble.

00:45:37.920 The doctors.

00:45:38.920 Yeah.

00:45:39.920 And I understand to some extent why people don't want to talk about the mental health aspect or they want to downplay the comorbidity because I do think trans people have faced unfair stigma for being trans.

00:45:54.280 And people will often dismiss the way they feel as being purely due to, how should I say this, a mental disorder.

00:46:05.400 Because there's such stigma around having a mental health condition.

00:46:09.580 So activists have tried to completely remove any aspects of mental health from gender dysphoria or from transitioning, which I don't think is helpful because that's a huge part of the equation in terms of determining what's best for you.

00:46:27.260 So, again, it's a situation where you have activists who have taken the complete.

00:46:31.040 They view it as very black and white and the suppression of this information is not ultimately going to be helpful for anyone who is considering transitioning.

00:46:40.960 It's so tricky because we for so long just bullied anybody who thought they were trans.

00:46:46.880 And, you know, they have high suicide rates, although I understand that that's not hasn't been determined whether that's because of people not accepting them or because they sort of were depressed and feeling unwell prior to having these issues.

00:47:00.020 But the point is, bullying of trans people, adults or kids is not acceptable.

00:47:05.560 But the answer is not to overcorrect by declaring everyone trans and suitable for surgery without probing whether it's actually the issue, whether it's actually the real issue.

00:47:15.740 And you point out in the book, most transgender adults agree with you on this.

00:47:20.740 They they they don't want to see teenagers running to have irreversible surgeries and render themselves infertile.

00:47:29.700 And usually that's not what transgender adults did themselves.

00:47:33.340 Absolutely. And it's been a really huge relief to me to have trans people reach out and say this to me because I'm not transgender and I never want to pretend like I'm speaking for the community.

00:47:43.980 And I do think a lot about how to be responsible with this information, because I don't want it to be used to hold back the community or to just justify discrimination against them.

00:47:56.220 But but definitely, I mean, this newer wave of the young women that we're seeing, especially with rapid onset gender dysphoria, they're transitioning very quickly.

00:48:04.620 Often they have no history of gender dysphoria.

00:48:06.800 In many cases, it's because they've gone through puberty.

00:48:11.120 They're not happy with the changes.

00:48:13.020 I mean, puberty takes an adjustment.

00:48:15.320 It's it's not a fun process for anybody.

00:48:18.660 And instead of saying to young women, you have breasts, you know, your body has changed.

00:48:23.560 You may be getting sexual attention in a way that you didn't before and you don't like it.

00:48:27.720 But that's not to say you're not a woman. 1.00

00:48:30.600 And I think also with the non-binary movement, what I see is a lot of young women who are not stereotypically feminine.

00:48:37.320 So they may be more male typical and they think because they're not stereotypically feminine or they look around at their peers and there's a real push for young women to self-sexualize nowadays.

00:48:47.360 I mean, I think that push has always been there, but especially with social media, it's even more self-sexualized.

00:48:51.740 Well, to embrace their sexuality at such a young age and to really put signals out there, I would say.

00:49:00.580 And so I think for young women who are not interested in that or don't don't feel like they can they don't want that for themselves.

00:49:08.060 They think, well, that must mean I'm not really a girl, but it's not.

00:49:11.720 And I don't know what. 0.94

00:49:12.500 You know, it's ridiculous because women, girls who are are more masculine in appearance, you're in our tent. 1.00

00:49:19.320 We're good. 0.92

00:49:20.280 We don't all look totally feminine and wear the dresses and the, you know, put curls in the hair.

00:49:24.920 Like, why?

00:49:26.020 Why are we losing women from our ranks just because there's some it's more trendy to say you're trans?

00:49:32.180 Like what whatever happened to it's kind of awesome to be a woman.

00:49:35.620 And why are people running from it now?

00:49:38.820 Exactly.

00:49:39.180 And I find it really upsetting as a woman to see this happening.

00:49:43.200 And especially when I talked to D transitioners when I was writing this book, it really disturbed me to see how society is not pushing back on any of this. 1.00

00:49:52.460 And to me, it's to me, that's extremely sexist to say, well, if you're not super feminine, then you must not count as a woman.

00:49:59.680 And why?

00:50:00.600 Why is our culture saying fantastic will help you live as a man or as a third gender will will help you get surgery and remove your breasts. 0.93

00:50:08.600 And not even question this.

00:50:11.340 And I do think that sounds misogynistic, that you would define womanhood so narrowly that only someone who looks like June Cleaver is in the tent.

00:50:20.920 Yeah. 0.98

00:50:22.700 It's ridiculous. 0.98

00:50:24.020 It's insane. 0.99

00:50:24.580 It's insane.

00:50:25.380 And I'm amazed that people don't see it for what it is.

00:50:28.120 But as you point out now, it's it's trendy to declare yourself trans, not not so much gay or lesbian anymore.

00:50:35.080 That's not as trendy.

00:50:35.880 That's not as cool.

00:50:36.500 But some sort of trans or non-binary or, you know, whatever the numerous terms are.

00:50:41.020 And these kids are starting to see it as a cure-all, you know, like you're heavy, you have acne, you don't fit in, you're not popular.

00:50:49.940 And then suddenly you just declare yourself as trans or one of these things.

00:50:53.520 And people are like, oh, she's interesting or he's interesting.

00:50:56.460 Oh, wow.

00:50:57.040 Like they're part of a club, an instant club with instant friends and support all over the Internet, never mind in the school where they're getting paraded out onto the stage in the auditorium and people are clapping for them.

00:51:08.880 Whereas they might just be going through a difficult phase in life and looking for an off ramp that will give them some relief from the hell that is puberty and was for all of us.

00:51:19.100 Yeah, I think for older people who especially identify as non-binary or want to lump themselves into the trans umbrella, it's a way to fit in, which is sounds so ridiculous because trans people are a marginalized group and they do face, I think, legitimate discrimination and oppression in some cases.

00:51:38.060 But you will see some people now identifying as non-binary, they'll identify as queer, which again, I don't like that term because I find it offensive, because it gets them points in terms of their social group, in terms of showing how progressive they are.

00:51:53.560 And actually, there was a study by Lisa Littman, I think you've spoken about this before, and in her study, she found that teachers were more concerned about anti-trans bullying than anti-gay bullying.

00:52:05.260 So, gay students are basically left to their own devices, but if they were to identify as trans, then... 0.55

00:52:17.740 More with Debra So in just one minute, but first, we want to bring you a feature we call Asked and Answered, where our listeners write in to us with some questions and we try to provide some answers.

00:52:27.120 Steve Krakauer is our executive producer and he's got the first half of this equation. Hey, Steve.

00:52:31.280 That's right, Megan. Lots of great questions continue to come in.

00:52:34.500 And so we would ask for more questions at devilmaycaremedia.com.

00:52:40.220 Love hearing from everyone.

00:52:41.140 This was a really interesting one from Amy, who has a question for you, but also really lays out a lot of this in her note.

00:52:48.840 She says,

00:52:49.180 And then she gives out some of the highlights of this, but she really wants to know, she's part of the group of parents who have really embraced this and also, she says, are embracing free speech and open debate.

00:53:17.540 But she wants to know, how can she combat this?

00:53:21.640 She wants to know, besides pulling children out of the school, what do you recommend families do in this type of situation?

00:53:27.380 Well, I appreciate the question because no one objects to a school being anti-racist.

00:53:32.280 It's a question of how they get there.

00:53:33.920 And too often in today's day and age, the school's putting out racist literature in order to supposedly support an anti-racist agenda.

00:53:42.500 And that's where parents get upset, right?

00:53:44.420 You don't divide people and then ask them to unite.

00:53:47.180 We're seeing that at the federal level right now with the presidential election.

00:53:50.320 And it doesn't work in schools either to sort of demonize instead of to overcompensate for demonizing one group for far too long to then demonize the other.

00:53:58.380 So what we need is buy-in, need buy-in by the whole school community as opposed to something that sows division.

00:54:04.580 I think, you know, number one, the best thing is to make a good selection in schools and try to find out whether ideologically you guys align before you go in.

00:54:12.440 Easier said than done, especially when you're in a public school.

00:54:14.600 So, you know, most people go to public schools, they live in the district, they pay taxes, the school has to take their kids, and that's what makes sense for the family.

00:54:21.680 So that's a tougher battle.

00:54:23.220 But I think even there, number one, speak up.

00:54:27.160 You know, as we've been discussing on this show, you've got to speak up because, and on all these shows that we've been covering these issues on, if you don't, who else will?

00:54:35.760 If not you, then who?

00:54:37.480 And there is safety in numbers.

00:54:39.000 If you can find others, even quietly, asking around, like, who's with me, you know, what's a good message, how can we raise this sensitively and, you know, with respect for the country's mood and what's happening right now?

00:54:51.180 And I think if you think it's a battle you can win, you have open-minded administrators or you have enough parents that you feel they have no choice but to listen to you, then you should fight.

00:55:02.000 Then you should stand up for viewpoint diversity, different kinds of speakers, you know, if you're going to bring in somebody who I think is crazy in her messaging, like a Robin DiAngelo, then you better bring in a Coleman Hughes to respond, right?

00:55:14.500 Like, be balanced.

00:55:16.280 I don't know that they're going to do it.

00:55:18.260 And I think, ultimately, if you get to the point where you realize you're just banging your head against the wall and nothing's going to change, and this is just causing aggravation in your life for no reason, right?

00:55:27.860 Because you're not going to persuade them, then you have to think about dramatic next steps like leaving.

00:55:33.880 And that is an option.

00:55:35.100 You know, you can move.

00:55:36.760 It's up to you whether you want to spend the next X years counter-programming your child so that he or she doesn't get shamed for things like their pigmentation or their gender that they have no control over,

00:55:48.680 or whether you just want to go to a school that doesn't make it this hard for you, you know, that tries to keep its heavy social justice agenda out of the curricula.

00:55:57.220 You know, or there is more working in tandem with you.

00:56:00.180 At least neutral would be nice.

00:56:02.380 Like, you keep that stuff out, or you keep it as an after-school activity, and therefore parents who want to join it can.

00:56:09.020 But all this stuff comes at the expense of a school's curriculum.

00:56:12.920 And that's a problem, too, right?

00:56:14.660 Like, we sent them there to learn history, math, all the stuff, and not to be activated with somebody else's ideology.

00:56:24.220 And I think, you know, you're the boss.

00:56:26.140 If you're in public school, you pay the bills.

00:56:28.580 If you're in private school, you pay the bills.

00:56:30.420 And you have a voice.

00:56:31.540 And sort of as we've been discussing on the theme of this show, don't be shamed into silence.

00:56:35.540 Speak up.

00:56:36.460 If you think the fight is futile, get out.

00:56:39.200 And I will be wishing you luck.

00:56:40.700 I hope I hear a follow-up.

00:56:41.620 So shoot us another note.

00:56:42.560 Let us know how it goes.

00:56:43.620 Thank you for that.

00:56:44.320 So wait, wait.

00:56:44.860 One more time, Steve.

00:56:45.620 What is the email for people who have questions?

00:56:47.180 Questions, plural, questions, at devilmaycaremedia.com.

00:56:51.760 Nice.

00:56:52.320 Look forward to hearing from all of you.

00:56:54.100 And now back to Debra Sell. 0.80

00:56:59.740 I love the part of your book where you go through.

00:57:02.020 I would love to just have you name all of them because it was a very powerful part of your book.

00:57:06.340 We just list all the new, quote, genders that people are throwing out there.

00:57:10.700 But can you tell us your favorite sort of, I'm saying, new gender that people are saying there?

00:57:15.900 Because it's not just those terms that Debra threw out earlier.

00:57:19.780 Like, I don't know.

00:57:21.880 I can't even remember them all.

00:57:23.540 But it's not just non-binary.

00:57:25.860 It's not just male, female, and non-binary.

00:57:28.300 Now people are saying, what's your favorite one?

00:57:31.160 My favorite is, okay, there are a couple.

00:57:33.020 But moon gender, which means your gender only comes out at night.

00:57:37.180 There's also puzzle gender, which means your puzzle needs to, or your gender needs to be put together like a puzzle.

00:57:42.680 And then astro-gender, which means you're like an astronaut floating through space, determining what your gender is.

00:57:49.740 But that's not a comprehensive list.

00:57:51.420 As you mentioned, there are countless.

00:57:53.040 Literally, I feel like there's a new one every day.

00:57:56.840 Moon gender, wider than, I mean, come on. 0.95

00:58:01.760 And then there's one you pointed out in the book, arbor-gender.

00:58:03.880 What's arbor-gender? 0.84

00:58:05.560 That someone identifies as a tree.

00:58:08.060 No, I refuse.

00:58:09.560 I do not recognize you.

00:58:11.240 I don't care.

00:58:12.020 You can call me a bigot all you want.

00:58:13.100 I X on moon gender and X on arbor-gender.

00:58:16.780 Rejected.

00:58:17.500 And by the way, they're not adding those to LGBTQ because there's already too many letters in there.

00:58:22.020 You add moon, arbor, astro.

00:58:25.820 I mean, it's gotten to the point of absurd.

00:58:27.480 It just kind of shows how so many of these people are just looking to feel special.

00:58:30.860 Looking to feel special.

00:58:32.100 But you can't challenge this.

00:58:34.420 I mean, medical professionals, if someone were to go in and to say they identified as any of these magical genders, you can't question it.

00:58:44.260 I do think that for many people who are identifying this way, especially young people, they are trying to figure out who they are, as we all were.

00:58:53.360 And that's just part of development.

00:58:54.880 But I'm just astounded that parents and adults are not, I mean, I think it's okay to say, you know what, I see this as something other than what it is.

00:59:06.780 But I think people have just been so cowed into believing what they're being told by activist groups that it's bigoted to question any of this.

00:59:14.660 That questioning self-identification in any way is hateful and harmful.

00:59:20.360 And so that's why they simply go along with it.

00:59:22.540 Oh, yeah.

00:59:23.760 I mean, you talk about how their parents are now told, if you interfere at all, if you do anything other than accept, your child's going to kill him or herself.

00:59:32.820 And the question is, would you rather have, like if it's your son who comes and says, I think I'm trans, I'm actually a girl.

00:59:41.500 The question is, would you rather have a happy daughter or a dead son?

00:59:45.900 And you say, that is a morally bankrupt question.

00:59:49.220 It is not okay to be asking parents of potentially trans kids this.

00:59:53.760 Why? 0.94

00:59:54.920 Because what kind of parent is going to say, yes, I prefer a dead child.

00:59:58.540 Of course, they're going to say they prefer a happy child.

01:00:00.540 And so they're being emotionally blackmailed by medical professionals, by activists, by organized, I would say, even medical and scientific organizations into going along with this because they feel they have no choice.

01:00:13.780 They really believe that if they do not allow their child to transition and they don't support the child in transition, that the child is going to kill themselves.

01:00:22.220 And meanwhile, the other problem here is that we're not just talking about a theoretical version of support, like I support you and I love you.

01:00:33.840 And we'll just sort of see this phase play out where you can be like, all right, you know, she wants to be called by a boy name.

01:00:38.960 She wants to dress as a boy. 0.89

01:00:40.740 And I love her.

01:00:41.780 So we're going to do it.

01:00:43.460 These kids are getting surgery and getting surgery is easier than ever, not to mention cross sex hormones, which can be gotten in way too many instances without your parents knowing or support.

01:00:55.720 Right.

01:00:56.280 So it's like the medical community is in cahoots, not just in accepting, accepting, accepting, but actually operating on these kids in ways that are irreversible.

01:01:08.860 It's so fast to the process by which they can get approved for surgery.

01:01:14.280 So there are guidelines that say you have to wait a certain amount of time.

01:01:17.740 You know, you're not supposed to start blockers until this point and then cross sex hormones and then surgery if you decide to.

01:01:23.160 But in many cases, those age milestones are surpassed if the parents are OK with it.

01:01:32.220 And the parents, in many cases, think that this is going to be lifesaving for their child.

01:01:37.680 So, of course, they go along with it.

01:01:39.980 I've heard of some cases where girls as young, people born female as young as age 12 are getting double mastectomies and puberty blockers are being given to children as young as age eight in some cases.

01:01:51.440 And to me, I mean, eight is obviously way too young.

01:01:56.220 I think even age 12 is too young to be making a decision about permanently removing parts of your body.

01:02:02.720 What is the age?

01:02:03.600 Right.

01:02:03.780 Like I was asking you that earlier.

01:02:05.040 What what is the age?

01:02:06.640 And one of the options is to love, support.

01:02:11.240 Don't be cruel to a child saying this, you know, be open minded, but at least postpone any big moves until puberty hits and see if it's persisting at that point.

01:02:21.700 But is there an age by which you should accept a child's declaration?

01:02:27.680 And and also, is there a time frame over which they must have been saying it?

01:02:32.660 You know, like there should be no surgery after six months of somebody saying I'm actually in the wrong body.

01:02:37.560 But is there a time frame that is acceptable?

01:02:40.740 Well, with the medical guidelines, so they suggest not starting puberty blockers until the child has actually started puberty.

01:02:47.580 And then cross sex hormones are not to be started until a child is believed to have the capacity for informed consent.

01:02:54.340 So that's generally seen to be about age 16, although some allowances have been made for children younger than that.

01:02:59.900 And then usually with double mastectomies, that's supposed to not be until a child has been on cross sex hormones for two years, although I've heard of cases where it's been a year, sometimes less than that.

01:03:12.320 And then genital surgery is not supposed to be until legal adulthood.

01:03:16.800 So those are the guidelines.

01:03:17.860 But from the stories I'm hearing from parents, it's definitely there's definitely a lot of room there for personal decision.

01:03:27.880 And I understand to some extent because I do believe medical gatekeeping has been an issue for trans people historically.

01:03:36.040 They haven't been able to get access to the care that they deserve.

01:03:40.120 But I don't think the solution to that is to go in the complete opposite direction and to basically say it's on demand now.

01:03:48.860 No, especially when I know you spoke with endocrinologists in the book who point out delaying puberty is is is not perfectly safe.

01:03:57.800 There are physical consequences to delaying puberty that it's a critical time for your physical, your psychosocial development, you say in the book.

01:04:07.740 And we just don't fully understand what the consequences of arresting that in a young boy or a young girl, even if you restart it later, will be.

01:04:17.940 Yeah, the research, we don't yet know what the long term effects are.

01:04:21.400 I previously, as I mentioned, I thought that this was the best way forward for these kids, because to me, before I began looking at the research literature, I thought, well, it makes sense that if you are to halt these otherwise permanent changes that go along with puberty, wouldn't that help a child then live as the sex they like to live as instead of having to live with.

01:04:45.600 Um, physical changes that would make that more difficult, but as I discussed in the book, uh, we don't have those data yet, but parents, from my understanding, are being told that puberty blockers are a pause button.

01:05:00.860 And that if someone decides that they don't want to continue on with transition, that they can just stop taking them and that everything will resume as normally.

01:05:11.580 Mm hmm. And they've also been told that there's no harm done in if your daughter, for example, is saying she thinks she's a boy and you're trying to be supportive and let her do that.

01:05:21.420 The notion that there's no harm done in her declaring herself publicly a boy is not supported because once she's declared it and put herself out there as being trans and gotten all the accolades makes it a lot tougher for a 13 year old girl to go back on that.

01:05:39.460 Like there is skin in that game.

01:05:41.120 A social transition is associated with going on to undergo medical interventions associated with transition.

01:05:49.460 So this is a piece of the discussion that is not being talked about.

01:05:54.540 And I don't think parents who are even, uh, agreeing to allow their child to socially transition necessarily know this because they're being told a social transition is harmless.

01:06:05.280 And if you allow your child to live as the opposite sex, even if there are no medical interventions involved, that this is totally reversible. 1.00

01:06:14.580 They can change their mind at any time.

01:06:17.220 And they'll say something like, oh, young children are not undergoing surgery. 0.99

01:06:21.660 That's ridiculous.

01:06:22.280 But even just socially transitioning, as I mentioned, is associated with going on because it is difficult for a child to say to everyone in their life, I've been living as the opposite sex for however long and I made a mistake. 0.82

01:06:37.480 And so now you've gone this long calling me by the opposite sex.

01:06:41.100 Now we have to go back to being referred to by my birth sex.

01:06:44.660 And for these transitioners I spoke to, they told me it's, it's a really shameful process.

01:06:49.800 People underestimate that.

01:06:51.280 And also for young children who are being given so much praise and attention for transitioning, as you mentioned, they will, in some cases, get parties thrown for them at school.

01:07:01.140 They will get all the adults in their life telling them that they're so courageous.

01:07:05.500 And I mean, why would you want to give that up?

01:07:07.800 It also makes other kids, other, their peers say, well, what do I need to do to get that kind of attention and praise?

01:07:14.660 Right. It's celebrated now.

01:07:17.900 And again, in an attempt to overcorrect a bullying mindset, we've crossed over to celebration, which is fraught as well.

01:07:27.000 Because, you know, you point out that in discussing what Lisa Lipman found, this scientist who, she was a pediatrician, physician and assistant professor at Brown University.

01:07:35.820 And she's the one who did the research on this looking like a social contagion among, among girls, among young, young girls who typically never suffered from gender dysphoria historically, but now are the majority of kids suffering from it, allegedly.

01:07:51.060 And that something like 40% of the young girls who declare themselves trans had multiple friends coming out as transgender as well.

01:08:02.640 That there does appear to be a social contagion factor here.

01:08:05.580 Yeah, that 40% of them had a friend group in which at least half of their friends also identified as transgender.

01:08:13.220 And this is 70 times, 70 times what you would see in the general population in terms of the incidence of people who identify as trans.

01:08:20.840 So, to me, that is a red flag.

01:08:24.240 I have people reaching out to me from all over the world who will say to me that this issue affects them.

01:08:29.800 If it's not their own child, they know someone's child or their child is in a class with multiple kids who are trans.

01:08:37.640 I think, Megan, I've heard you say something like that in a previous episode where you know a family who, I mean, it's just the fact that so many.

01:08:46.620 They have a daughter who's socially awkward and she's declared herself trans.

01:08:52.040 She's a little heavyset.

01:08:53.260 She's a little socially awkward.

01:08:54.640 And now she's declared herself trans and they want to be supportive.

01:08:58.080 But they're really very much wondering whether it's these other things, these feelings of ostracization that are driving it.

01:09:05.280 Yeah.

01:09:05.940 Or even when there are two or three trans boys in a given class.

01:09:09.920 To me, that's just statistically so unlikely.

01:09:13.660 And people will say, oh, it's due to greater social acceptance.

01:09:16.740 But if that's the case, why do we not see the same thing happening with people born male?

01:09:23.960 And when you talk to these young women who have detransitioned, they will say that they had other things going on that were not addressed.

01:09:31.580 That they wish someone had brought up and said, maybe we should talk about this instead of taking what you're saying and running with it.

01:09:40.420 And that's what I find the most heartbreaking is the young women who were essentially let down by the medical community.

01:09:47.660 And they continue to be because there is no support, virtually no support available to them.

01:09:54.700 They now have to navigate living with, in some cases, permanent side effects of having been on these interventions and testosterone or surgery.

01:10:06.000 And where's the guidance for them?

01:10:08.780 They're being told that they don't exist.

01:10:10.660 If you look at how the mainstream talks about them, they're being told that they never really had gender dysphoria or that they're so statistically rare that it doesn't matter.

01:10:20.800 And I don't understand with a movement that is so obsessed with so-called lived experience, why it is the lived experience of these individuals doesn't matter.

01:10:31.460 So much of this story hurts women.

01:10:37.300 So much of this story inures to the detriment of women. 1.00

01:10:41.880 Young girls being told the woman tent is as narrow as they come. 0.98

01:10:45.460 And if they look a little bit more masculine or feel a little bit more masculine, they're not welcome in our gender.

01:10:51.620 They're no longer girls.

01:10:53.320 Girls who are surrounded by girls suffering with social issues or psychological issues who declare themselves trans at school. 0.80

01:11:00.720 And then feel pressured into doing it themselves and feel shamed about their sexuality, about their bodies, about their period and decide who the hell wants to be a woman.

01:11:09.360 I'm going to cross over to where I don't have to deal with this nonsense and I can be more socially accepted.

01:11:14.100 Girls who then get no support from a medical system who immediately confirms that they must indeed be not a girl if they're suffering these things.

01:11:21.160 They need to be therapized out of puberty and girlhood and starts pumping them full of hormones that rendered them potentially infertile, leading to them having, quote, top surgery. 0.97

01:11:30.720 They're cutting off their breasts. 1.00

01:11:32.380 If they take male hormones, they start to grow male anatomy that cannot be undone and they will not want if they detransition. 1.00

01:11:41.480 And and then women who aren't trans but speak up about this saying this doesn't seem right. 0.98

01:11:47.840 And I don't necessarily agree with trans girls, you know, girls who are born boys running in girls track meets or wrestling against my daughter. 1.00

01:11:58.520 And then they're called TERFs, which is a derogatory term for women who speak up about these. 0.71

01:12:02.680 It's like women get the short end of this argument every time. 1.00

01:12:07.080 And I just I feel like nine times out of 10, it's these very loud trans activists who Abigail was telling me, you know, those are those are people who were identified male at birth.

01:12:17.020 They grew up largely as boys and men who are trying to shut these women up from saying, I love you.

01:12:23.440 I'm listening to you, but I have something I need to say, too.

01:12:27.080 I'm concerned.

01:12:29.380 Yeah, I mean, the extreme the extreme way that this is playing out is look at even in prisons where gender identification now is based on self-determination. 0.77

01:12:38.040 So a male sex offender who sexually abused women, if he decides that he identifies as female, he'll be housed in a female ward or female prison.

01:12:50.580 Is that true?

01:12:51.520 Yeah. Yeah.

01:12:52.700 This is happening in California.

01:12:54.260 This is happening in the UK.

01:12:55.180 And as you said, women continually get the short end of the stick. 1.00

01:13:00.020 And I I'm not sure what more it's going to take for people to wake up and fully see this and find find that the potential costs of speaking out are outweighed by what can be gained by doing so, because I don't feel we really have a choice.

01:13:20.840 It's just going to continue getting worse until we do.

01:13:23.980 We're not even allowed to hold on to the things that have previously been celebrated.

01:13:28.640 And some of the great things about being a woman that only a woman can do, you know, like, you know, you point out in the book, it's now considered transphobic to say women give birth. 0.89

01:13:38.900 Women have vaginas. 1.00

01:13:40.640 Women have periods. 1.00

01:13:41.500 Now you're a transphobe if you say that, because you've got to keep you've got to keep open to the fact that I guess men can have vaginas. 1.00

01:13:49.840 Men can have babies. 0.94

01:13:51.000 I'm just it's like, can we just have what we have?

01:13:54.840 And then if you want in, you are welcome, but you don't get to take away what is ours, what is ours by nature, by God, by birthright.

01:14:03.680 I just like the fact that it's controversial to say women have babies.

01:14:09.500 Women are the ones who have babies is outrageous and somehow and it's not transphobic to say otherwise. 0.58

01:14:15.140 And yet this is what's led to J.K. Rowling having such a blowback against her and being decried as hateful.

01:14:23.140 I don't like it's a small group, but they've totally co-opted the language in the narrative.

01:14:28.500 There's a double standard, too, because you will see, say, with the news outlets, they will still talk about men's sperm.

01:14:35.080 They'll refer to male physiology and they won't feel the need to qualify what they're referring to when they talk about men.

01:14:43.280 But if it's anything to do with women or women's bodies or women's reproductive abilities, then there needs to be some sort of qualification as to what they're referring to by using the word woman.

01:14:55.400 And I'm totally in favor of being inclusive with language, but I don't think that requires us making any reference to being female verboten.

01:15:07.160 And I think that it's just I always try to find the most sensitive way I can word this.

01:15:14.580 And then you alluded to this earlier.

01:15:15.860 But when you look at who is demanding these changes, I think that speaks a lot to why it's so one sided.

01:15:23.880 And what's upsetting to me as somebody who has two trans women in my family is I don't think most most trans people feel this way at all.

01:15:36.080 I think they're being they're being grouped unfairly into a group of activists who are very loud and don't speak for them.

01:15:43.640 I don't think most trans women or trans men want to put these restrictions on language, want to say that it's it's transphobic for women to celebrate motherhood. 0.56

01:15:52.360 It's absurd. And yet this very small group of activists has managed to shut everybody else up.

01:15:58.860 Not you, thankfully, not Abigail, but effectively, because your books have gotten banned in some places.

01:16:05.680 You've had to fight just to have it listed online at Target.

01:16:08.840 Why? Because this small group will say Target's bigoted.

01:16:13.320 You're bigoted. I'm bigoted for having the conversation.

01:16:15.860 And, you know, unless more people just, I guess, become OK with being called names.

01:16:20.720 We're going to lose this fight and to the detriment of little girls, middle school, adolescent girls and women as well. 0.99

01:16:28.900 Why did why should J.K. Rowling have to go through this shit? 1.00

01:16:31.080 I realize she's a billionaire and people are like, screw her. 0.99

01:16:33.740 Why should she have to go through this just for her expressing her opinion?

01:16:37.440 No, she she shouldn't have to.

01:16:38.800 No woman should have to. 1.00

01:16:39.860 No one period should have to.

01:16:41.440 And I'm concerned about what the repercussions of this, what the consequences will be for trans people.

01:16:48.460 So not for the activists who are the very vocal minority who claim to speak for the entire community.

01:16:57.820 And I don't even think the most aggressive and malicious activists necessarily represent all trans activists.

01:17:05.360 But they definitely don't represent the community.

01:17:08.520 And I think people are going along with this right now because they're afraid.

01:17:13.320 But I do think there there could potentially be a backlash to the community because the average person says, look at the things that these activists are asking for.

01:17:23.680 These are not reasonable.

01:17:24.960 And as you said, most people in the community, they reach out.

01:17:28.300 People who have reached out to me will say, I would never ask for the things that trans activists are asking for on my behalf.

01:17:36.300 And they're actually quite horrified at the fact that this is what people are being told.

01:17:41.340 So I do worry about that.

01:17:43.140 I worry about what the long term effects are going to be because the activists do not represent what most people in the community are thinking or feeling.

01:17:51.420 You get into the book, something I mentioned in passing, which is trans boys, sorry, trans girls. 1.00

01:17:58.740 And I know it's confusing to people still getting used to language.

01:18:01.260 That means identified male at birth, but thinks that they're more aligned with being a girl.

01:18:07.680 So trans girls competing in girls sports and that more and more we're seeing it happen. 0.99

01:18:13.700 More and more people are afraid to speak up because, I mean, look what happened to Martina Navarrola, who is a gay rights activist and icon.

01:18:22.140 And she said, geez, I don't really think that the trans guys should be allowed to, or trans girls, forgive me, should be allowed to compete in women's sports.

01:18:28.060 And everybody was like, bigot.

01:18:29.540 She got awards taken away from her.

01:18:31.560 She was like, whoa.

01:18:32.780 She was on her heels immediately and she's been trying to make up for it ever since.

01:18:36.020 But this is a big issue.

01:18:37.700 Should trans girls be allowed to compete against, they're called cis girls, you know, born as a girl and identify as a girl for your whole life, in sports? 0.51

01:18:47.320 Can you tell us the example you cite in the book with Serena and Venus Williams?

01:18:53.420 Right.

01:18:53.860 So with your question, I would say at the elite level, no, I don't think so.

01:18:57.120 I don't think that's appropriate.

01:18:58.100 But I can understand why people are pushing for this, because sport can be about more than just competition.

01:19:04.340 It can be about community as well and a sense of belonging.

01:19:07.700 So with regard, I mean, there are biological differences associated with athletic performance.

01:19:15.540 And so when you look at the Williams sisters, so they were able to, I mean, they're phenomenal, but they were still beaten by a male athlete who was ranked, I believe, 203rd in the world.

01:19:34.560 So, I mean, people are pretending as though biological sex plays no role in terms of athletic performance or that there is no advantage that comes along with having been born male and undergoing male puberty.

01:19:51.920 But that's not true.

01:19:53.920 And I think most people know that's not true.

01:19:55.940 So this is essentially a fairy tale that people are telling, and they're telling women who have a problem with this, and especially young women who are competing for university scholarships or opportunities that could be life-changing for them.

01:20:13.240 They're telling them that they should basically just suck it up and train harder, which I don't think is fair.

01:20:17.940 Right, because you point out that even the International Olympic Committee, which has had to deal with this, has said, all right, well, here's the deal.

01:20:26.320 You have to make sure that your testosterone level, if you're a trans woman, is below a certain number. 0.99

01:20:32.060 And then you can compete against the women, against cis women. 0.59

01:20:36.100 Okay, so somebody determined what that number ought to be.

01:20:39.240 But you point out in the book that this still, even this level, allows trans female athletes to compete with testosterone levels that are almost six times higher than what cis women would have.

01:20:53.100 So there's still a testosterone advantage and a muscle advantage, right?

01:20:58.840 I mean, it's like, it doesn't, just because you decide to transition doesn't mean soon thereafter your muscle advantage goes away.

01:21:04.900 Right, and as well as your physical stature, people are acting as though if someone is taking estrogen, then that's going to completely eradicate any of these advantages.

01:21:15.940 And that's, that's just not true.

01:21:17.760 But what I find really, I don't know that thought provoking is the right way to describe this.

01:21:23.360 But when you look at how this issue has been covered, people will say, why is it that these critics have such an issue with trans girls competing against girls?

01:21:35.280 Why is it they also don't have an issue with trans boys competing against boys? 0.87

01:21:40.160 And I'm just dumbfounded, because I think to myself, do these people have absolutely no understanding of biology?

01:21:48.720 Or are they so ideologically possessed that they really think this is just about discrimination?

01:21:55.700 Because otherwise, why would you even think that is a relevant thing in this conversation to consider?

01:22:02.580 Right, of course not. I mean, girls transitioning to boys do not have any sort of muscle advantage or testosterone advantage over cis boys.

01:22:10.820 That's obvious. Like, that's, that's disingenuous, right?

01:22:14.760 I mean, you do, you talk in the book about, right, in the book about just sexuality in general and gender roles and sort of where we are as a society.

01:22:23.700 You know, it was in the news last week that Harry Styles, he was on the cover of Vogue, he's a singer, and he, he was wearing like a dress.

01:22:34.000 And Candace Owens took a shot at him, Ben Shapiro took a shot at him as like, you know, this is the erosion of masculinity and we can't survive without masculine men.

01:22:42.440 I actually was wondering what you thought of it, because Harry Styles does not describe himself as non-binary or, you know, in between genders or not sure.

01:22:51.480 He's like, I'm a cis man. I'm, I was born a boy. I am a guy. I'm good.

01:22:57.060 But is maybe not, you know, traditionally masculine, is presenting as more feminine.

01:23:04.360 And I think, you know, you can make the argument that I was making on behalf of women, on behalf of men, like maybe men would be saying, aren't tense big too?

01:23:11.280 Harry can stay. He doesn't have to say he's non-binary or something other.

01:23:14.740 Like, in a way, I thought maybe Harry Styles is sort of the solution to this problem by saying, you don't have to abandon your gender in order to take on things that may not be considered traditionally masculine or feminine.

01:23:27.760 People sometimes, sometimes assume because of the things I say that I'm in favor of traditional gender norms.

01:23:33.820 And I'm definitely not. I do understand the outrage that people voiced as a result of that cover, because I do think to some extent masculinity is pathologized.

01:23:45.700 And I write about this in my book and how men are seen as toxic or inherently misogynistic or sexual predators by default.

01:23:55.320 And I don't agree with any of that.

01:23:57.820 Like you said, I think that's totally acceptable if a man wants to wear a dress.

01:24:02.360 I don't think he should have to identify as another gender. 0.99

01:24:09.500 So I see both sides of it.

01:24:12.400 But for me, I'm of the mind, live and let live.

01:24:15.880 And women, we are allowed to dress more masculinely.

01:24:19.440 And for the most part, people don't give us a hard time about that.

01:24:22.280 So I feel the same thing should be allowed of men.

01:24:26.420 And I would think men should be allowed to be more masculine if they want.

01:24:29.580 And if they want to wear a dress that's more stereotypically seen as feminine or is feminine, then that's fine, too.

01:24:35.680 See, I agree with you.

01:24:36.880 But then I also feel the other side of it is don't shame me when I tell you that's not a man I'm attracted to in the least.

01:24:44.640 I want a manly man.

01:24:46.900 I want a man who's all man.

01:24:48.360 That's what I want.

01:24:49.280 And it doesn't make me homophobic or transphobic or any of the phobics. 0.91

01:24:53.300 It makes me like the vast majority of American women. 0.97

01:24:55.760 I guess we we like guys who are strong, who are assertive, who don't wear dresses, who, you know, I just who are leaders, who are ambitious, who are reward oriented, all those things.

01:25:07.220 And it doesn't mean there's no room in our, you know, attractive circle for people who are a little different than that.

01:25:13.340 But there's nothing wrong with you if you like that kind of a man.

01:25:17.100 It doesn't make those kinds of men toxic.

01:25:19.580 That's that's absurd.

01:25:20.960 That's offensive.

01:25:21.580 Most women, straight women, definitely would prefer a masculine man. 1.00

01:25:26.900 But the strange thing is very progressive women seem to really struggle with admitting that even to themselves.

01:25:34.740 And I think part of it is also this movement now to say that sexual orientation or human sexuality is socially constructed or it's a spectrum.

01:25:44.060 So that's to say, really, we should be sexually open to pretty much anyone, no matter what they look like, doesn't matter what sort of anatomy they have.

01:25:52.900 And I do think whatever, whoever you're attracted to, that's totally fine.

01:25:59.140 I don't think there should be stigma around people being attracted to, you know, in my research previously, I would talk to men who had many partners who were trans women.

01:26:10.140 And they would feel all sorts of negative feelings about that.

01:26:15.960 In many cases, they wouldn't introduce their girlfriend to their families or their friends.

01:26:20.920 And I don't think that's OK.

01:26:22.680 I obviously think that there should be no stigma around dating trans people or dating anybody.

01:26:27.500 But we also don't have to go so far to say that any sexual interest is completely modifiable or completely arbitrary.

01:26:39.920 And I think that's very invasive. 0.94

01:26:42.760 And in some ways, that's coercive because the way it's playing out for the lesbian community is they're being told if you are attracted to women, you should be attracted to women with a penis because biology is socially constructed. 0.99

01:26:55.140 So the penis doesn't really exist. 0.99

01:26:57.820 And for lesbians, I'm not a lesbian, but my understanding is that the defining factor is not being sexually interested in penises. 1.00

01:27:07.620 No penises allowed. 1.00

01:27:09.220 It's like the one area where you can really just have the penis with the X over it. 1.00

01:27:13.480 The last bastion of no penises is lesbianism. 1.00

01:27:16.320 I don't understand the pressure on these women. 1.00

01:27:18.020 Get out of our way. 0.99

01:27:20.380 It's ridiculous. 1.00

01:27:21.180 I mean, I'd love to look at a lesbian and say, but you're you're something phobic if you don't want to have sex with a penis that belongs to somebody declaring themselves a woman. 1.00

01:27:29.520 Well, guess what? 1.00

01:27:30.240 I don't want it. 1.00

01:27:31.120 So screw you. 1.00

01:27:32.220 Come on. 1.00

01:27:33.480 How have we gotten to this place where like you're phobic unless you feel about sexuality and having sex with somebody the way I tell you to? 0.99

01:27:40.620 You're you're racist if you happen to be born with this color skin. 0.97

01:27:43.740 It's it's so reductive.

01:27:45.920 All of this is so reductive and blind to one's full humanity.

01:27:50.000 It's the fact that this ideology has managed to infiltrate every area of life.

01:27:58.400 And I think it's blindsided a lot of people because this was previously seen as an issue that was only in academia, that only fringe crazy people thought these things.

01:28:09.820 And this would never be an issue that would actually affect people in their day to day lives.

01:28:15.100 And I have a chapter dedicated to talking about why social justice is does not belong in academia, how it's actually destroying academia, how cancel culture has become such a problem within the sciences.

01:28:27.480 And I would really encourage anyone who does not feel.

01:28:33.000 Who feels unsettled about the direction we're headed in to really speak out about it, because I think people live in fear.

01:28:41.600 And when you don't know what that's going to feel like, it's worse.

01:28:46.020 The apprehension is worse than actually going through it.

01:28:48.380 And I've been mobbed multiple times on social media.

01:28:51.560 I have people calling me all kinds of names.

01:28:54.000 I always tell people the first mobbing is always the worst one.

01:28:57.040 And then once you get through that, you're fine.

01:29:00.020 And people can say whatever they want about you because you know who you are.

01:29:03.680 People who love you and know you are not going to think those things about you.

01:29:07.120 And that's really what matters.

01:29:08.200 And living in fear is no way to live your life.

01:29:12.340 Because at the end of the day, even if you say the right things and you bow your head down and you go along with what they're telling you to say and do, they will turn on you.

01:29:21.160 It's just a matter of time.

01:29:22.940 A hundred percent.

01:29:23.480 Even if you're a minority woman like you are, who's of the left, who's dedicated her life to, you know, researching issues that were considered verboten and that were supposed to be empowering to women and to people who are marginalized, turned on you in an instant.

01:29:40.680 And you talk in the book about how you've been disowned.

01:29:43.400 You've lost friends.

01:29:44.620 You had to leave your profession.

01:29:45.760 And yet you still, still feel that science will prevail.

01:29:53.560 Why?

01:29:54.220 Why do you feel optimistic that we're going to turn on this?

01:29:58.440 I'm just generally an optimistic person in general.

01:30:00.940 But it's also because the truth always comes out and you can try to suppress it.

01:30:06.500 But reality is what it is.

01:30:08.880 And in time, people will see that.

01:30:11.600 They will see that these loopy ideas actually don't bear out.

01:30:16.380 They're not based in anything real, even though.

01:30:19.960 People will claim that the so-called newest science backs up these myths that I debunk in the book.

01:30:26.800 It's only a matter of time before it's been shown.

01:30:29.640 It's shown to be baseless.

01:30:31.320 And so I do want to mention in the book, I do list all the studies I talk about.

01:30:35.640 So people, if they're not convinced, they can look them up themselves and learn more about these issues.

01:30:39.400 Because it's just right now, I think, where we are.

01:30:42.760 It's a very dark time.

01:30:44.860 And I think especially with the children, when they start detransitioning, when the lawsuits start happening, that's really going to be a turning point.

01:30:53.660 And all of this ideology, all of this nonsense, especially that children are being targeted with, people are going to realize it's all going to collapse in on itself.

01:31:01.420 When the children realize what a generation allowed to happen to them because they were too afraid to speak up or say what's real, what we all know is real, which is we need to be careful here.

01:31:15.080 We need more study.

01:31:16.140 We need science to stay scientific and not part of the social justice movement.

01:31:22.320 It's absurd.

01:31:23.540 And we owe them.

01:31:24.600 You know, if adults are not going to fight for them, then who will?

01:31:28.940 Like, that's part of my problem is our kids really can't fight for themselves.

01:31:33.360 We have to do it.

01:31:34.500 And so Dennis Prager was on the show not long ago saying, look, there are three people, three kinds of people in the world.

01:31:38.820 There are the fighters.

01:31:39.940 There are the assistants to the fighters.

01:31:42.260 And then there are people who do nothing.

01:31:44.080 And the only way forward is to be one or two.

01:31:46.880 Like, the time to sit back and do nothing is past because we're starting to lose this.

01:31:52.140 And if you don't care enough about yourself to to say something, then you got to care about the next generation who's really suffering as a result of this turn, this weird tidal wave of a turn.

01:32:05.700 You know, I know you pointed out that there was a letter signed by multiple scientists published in The Guardian, 54 academics, not long ago, speaking out about this weird merger right between social justice and science.

01:32:20.160 Does that do any good?

01:32:21.640 Does that does that create a lane for others to draft behind them and say, yeah, you know what?

01:32:26.800 Us, too.

01:32:27.980 Or did it not do anything?

01:32:29.960 It definitely helped to draw attention to the problem.

01:32:32.340 But I see what the result will be is is academics are just going to continue leaving the field.

01:32:38.180 I mean, it's gotten so much worse since I left three years ago.

01:32:42.000 It's gotten so much worse than I ever thought it could get.

01:32:45.380 And I don't don't regret my decision to leave ever.

01:32:48.740 And I think more academics, it's crazy for me since the end of gender has come out, the number of academics who have reached out to me to say they are similarly contemplating leaving the academy.

01:32:59.160 They're thinking about leaving the sciences because they can't do their research properly.

01:33:03.520 They don't see the point of being in an environment where you can't ask meaningful questions.

01:33:07.680 So I see there also being repercussions for academia and research.

01:33:13.900 And I hope that, you know, I just ask the public not to give up on science and not to give on give up on scientific papers and on the academy, because there will have to be a turning point.

01:33:24.880 All the good people are going to leave and it's going to need to be rebuilt.

01:33:28.820 But I really believe that's the only way forward, because science is the only way we can really have an accurate understanding or an approximation of the truth.

01:33:39.400 And to know that you are not alone, you know, the number of letters you've gotten privately while people condemn you publicly, I know has been overwhelming.

01:33:48.420 Same for me.

01:33:49.140 I get tons of notes from people saying, we're with you, we're with you, keep on fighting.

01:33:53.220 They're afraid to say it publicly, but they're so grateful when someone does.

01:33:57.240 And I think if you're someone thinking about speaking out, you need to remember you're you're not alone.

01:34:02.600 You've got millions of people on your side who are afraid just like you are.

01:34:06.600 You know, look at that woman at Smith College who spoke out, you know, sort of mild mannered Jody. 0.96

01:34:13.120 But she took to the microphone and she said her piece and she continues to do so.

01:34:17.100 And she's protected by the law from getting fired and saying what she feels about the social engineering going on there.

01:34:23.260 Listen, before I go, I just want to ask you a couple of quick questions, because I know you're up against it quickly for parents worried about, let's say, their daughters who find themselves in a group of friends who one by one are declaring themselves trans.

01:34:40.360 What should they do?

01:34:42.340 Because that is a very common situation.

01:34:44.300 Usually it will be a very influential friend who comes out as trans.

01:34:48.000 And that is the inspiration for another child saying, oh, maybe I'm a trans boy, too.

01:34:55.520 I think it really comes down to the relationship you have with your child.

01:34:59.400 And if they feel that they can turn to you with whatever they're going through and to talk to you about the things that they are struggling with, that's the most important thing.

01:35:08.220 I mean, I guess I would say to try and limit the amount of time that they spend with that particular friend.

01:35:14.640 But it can be very difficult, especially now with kids all having their own phones and and and not being monitored in some cases.

01:35:24.700 I mean, kids will find a way around it no matter what, especially if they feel that something is is forbidden.

01:35:29.460 That makes it all the more appealing to them.

01:35:32.180 So, yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing would be just to keep the communication open and don't feel pressured to go along with something that you're not OK with.

01:35:46.660 The book is called The End of Gender, debunking the myths about sex and identity in our society.

01:35:54.160 And it's really well timed.

01:35:56.100 Deborah, can they get it everywhere now?

01:35:57.780 Is it is it available?

01:35:59.460 It is available.

01:36:01.200 So, yes, the audiobook is read by me.

01:36:04.500 The hardcover and e-book and audiobook are all available on Amazon.

01:36:08.660 You can get it at Barnes & Noble, Indigo, pretty much everywhere you buy books.

01:36:15.900 Yeah, I was going to say something else there, but I won't in reference to something you mentioned earlier.

01:36:20.880 And well, I know Target tried to ban it.

01:36:23.460 It's still not in Target stores.

01:36:24.960 They tried to ban it from the online store, yours and Abigail's.

01:36:27.600 And then your Twitter army, and I was one of them, stood up and said, this is baloney.

01:36:32.380 Stop it.

01:36:33.380 And magically it reappeared.

01:36:35.380 Well, no, I want people to read it. 0.98

01:36:37.260 And even if you don't agree with it, read the damn thing and figure it out for yourself. 0.96

01:36:40.860 The more somebody tells me I can't read something, the more I want to read it. 0.98

01:36:43.640 You know, so this one was worth it either way.

01:36:46.460 Get ready for 2021.

01:36:47.800 We can go in fighting.

01:36:48.760 Yes, exactly right.

01:36:50.720 I'm with you.

01:36:51.980 Thank you for coming on.

01:36:53.160 Thank you so much, Megan.

01:36:54.000 Today's episode was brought to you in part by Legacy Box, the world's largest digitizer of home movies and photos.

01:37:00.820 Go to LegacyBox.com slash MK for 60% off, 6-0% off while supplies last.

01:37:08.400 I want to tell you that coming up later this week, we're going to have a full politics show for you so you can get all the latest on where we stand and what's going to happen next and what to expect over the next month or so.

01:37:17.220 Where things continue to get crazy, right?

01:37:19.940 I mean, I know Rich Lowry sort of says, what I do is I just assume the worst is going to happen and then I'm always right.

01:37:26.640 He'll be here along with Eric Erickson.

01:37:29.260 We're going to have Andrew Sullivan later this week, so I'm psyched to talk to him.

01:37:32.480 He'll be fun because he's attacked me publicly and I've attacked him publicly and he's more on the left and I'm a little bit more on the right.

01:37:37.380 But I respect the guy.

01:37:38.460 He's a great writer.

01:37:39.680 He's against cancel culture and he's been really strong. 0.99

01:37:42.340 And if I could do with a pen what that guy can do, I would be really proud of myself and I'd probably be in a different medium than I am right now.

01:37:48.740 Anyway, check the show out later this week.

01:37:50.540 You can do that by subscribing and that way we will just send it right to your inbox.

01:37:54.700 So easy.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - November 30, 2020

Dr. Debra Soh, on Gender, Femininity and the Dangers of Anti-Science Woke Culture ｜ Ep. 31

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