The Megyn Kelly Show - Dr. Lisa Littman on Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, the Teen Trans Trend, and Intellectual Rigor

00:00:00.500 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:12.180 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Monday.

00:00:16.640 Oh, we have a great and important show for you today. I have been waiting a year to interview

00:00:22.220 this woman. Her name is Dr. Lisa Littman. And if her name sounds familiar, it's because she has

00:00:28.320 played a big role in one of the most intense national debates the country has seen in recent

00:00:34.560 years. It all started when Dr. Littman began to notice an unusual number of teenagers announcing

00:00:39.800 that they were transgender, in particular, girls announcing that they were now suddenly transgender

00:00:46.160 on a scale that did not make sense statistically. It seemed to her like an anomaly. So as a physician

00:00:53.180 and a researcher at Brown University, she decided she would study the issue. Well, her research found

00:00:59.480 that children might be transitioning, might be determining, I should say, that they are transgender

00:01:04.880 on the basis of peer or cultural influence, that this could be a social contagion, if you will.

00:01:13.380 What's now known as rapid onset gender dysphoria is a term she coined. It's controversial. And

00:01:21.160 it appears at least based on the research that she has done. And now some others have have taken a

00:01:29.160 look at as a very real phenomenon, though, you'd be hard pressed to find people within the medical

00:01:33.980 community to support that. As you can imagine, Dr. Littman immediately came under attack. Trans

00:01:39.240 activists accused her of bigotry. They called her work dangerous. This is a woman who's a lifelong liberal

00:01:44.500 pro-LGBTQ, was interviewing parents who were, for the most part, openly very pro-LGBTQ.

00:01:53.180 Fellow researchers, nonetheless, accused her of bad or shoddy science. And her own university,

00:01:58.240 Brown, bowed to the pressure and retracted a press release touting her study and replaced it with an

00:02:03.960 apology. The scientific journal where her research was published, pulled it and announced a review.

00:02:10.380 At the same time, there was a side of the story, however, that was not covered by the press very

00:02:16.220 much. And that was that Dr. Littman heard from a lot of grateful parents, moms and dads, thankful

00:02:22.300 that someone was courageous enough to look into what was happening to their sons and daughters. And

00:02:26.600 not only that, but people who had considered themselves trans only to realize that they weren't

00:02:32.820 and felt that they were betrayed by a medical community that had pushed them with, quote,

00:02:36.980 affirmative care, also expressing their gratitude to Dr. Littman for trying to take an honest look

00:02:42.700 at this. She has no agenda. Just tried to take an honest look at it. This is Dr. Littman's first

00:02:47.420 interview since recently leaving Brown University. This is also her first interview since publishing

00:02:52.740 a new study involving detransitioners, meaning people who took steps to transition to the opposite

00:02:59.760 gender, but then reversed the process. Welcome, Dr. Lisa Littman. What a pleasure to have you here.

00:03:05.720 Well, thank you so much for having me and thank you for that very, very warm welcome. There are some

00:03:12.580 things that you got exactly right that I am a liberal Democrat. I am pro LGBT. I have people in my

00:03:21.220 family and friends who are lesbian, gay, bisexual. I have colleagues who are transgender. My desire to

00:03:28.700 look into this situation was I noticed something that was unusual and I felt that it needed some

00:03:35.680 exploration. And coming in with, I wonder what's going on. I felt that there were questions that

00:03:45.960 needed to be asked. And so my ulterior motive was trying to understand what was happening that was

00:03:54.320 different than what has been observed for gender dysphoric young people in the decades previous.

00:04:02.820 Mm-hmm. I mean, I think we all saw it, except you actually did something to try to figure it out,

00:04:08.480 figure out the why behind it. And the prevailing line had been, well, society's become more tolerant

00:04:17.640 of trans people, thus the increase in numbers of people, including teenagers, saying that they're

00:04:26.900 trans. And you were cognizant of that line in going into your research too. You understood that that's,

00:04:32.300 that was sort of the line that a lot of people used. Yes, more, more tolerance will lead to more

00:04:37.140 public identification as trans. And we're open-minded to that being the explanation.

00:04:43.980 Right. So first I want to say that society becoming more tolerant of people who are transgender,

00:04:50.620 people who are gender dysphoric, people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, I think that's great.

00:04:55.240 Like that is really, really important progress that we've had. And previously there was a lot

00:05:01.480 of discrimination and stigma. So I would say that is a step in the right direction. What happened,

00:05:08.040 what I was seeing in my own small community, some other around the world, clinicians started to see

00:05:15.520 this, and these are the specialized gender clinics, started to notice this massive change that there

00:05:23.960 was a skyrocketing of teenagers seeking to transition. And it was even more pronounced for

00:05:31.760 teenage girls. So both teenage boys and girls went up, more so the girls. Previously, I would say as

00:05:40.600 recently as 2012, there wasn't a lot of information, even about adolescents. There were only two gender

00:05:47.480 clinics in the world who had enough information. And so these increases, when I say skyrocketing,

00:05:53.680 you know, what does that really mean? So in the United Kingdom, they saw a 45,000% increase in girls

00:06:04.780 attending the gender identity development services, 4,300. So 4,000, I'm sorry, 40,

00:06:13.540 4500% increase. And that's, that is huge. That's really huge. And just to do the math on that,

00:06:22.120 keep it simple. So whereas there might have been one girl coming in 10 years ago saying, I think I

00:06:28.580 might be, um, you know, I'm gender dysphoric, you know, just to really dumb it down, like confused

00:06:34.800 about my gender or may identify with the opposite gender. Um, now there's 4,500 girls coming in 10

00:06:40.460 years later. Um, well, 45,000 increasing, right. So, um, so the increase is, uh, you know, I tried to,

00:06:50.220 I tried to, to drill down because it's hard to, to kind of, what is this? So that's a 60% increase per

00:06:57.660 year, you know, over this eight year period. Um, you know, so the numbers, my head, they've gone

00:07:03.740 way up. Let's go with that. It's not, it has gone way up. And so some people say, Oh, that's just,

00:07:08.660 it's just because of stigma. And when you see numbers like that, you know, there's a responsibility

00:07:13.900 to dig a little deeper than just saying, here's one explanation. Let's, let's just stop there and

00:07:20.260 stop looking. And so some people I think can dig in their heels and say, Nope, it's just because of

00:07:26.500 this. And if you look at other things that you might consider, um, where stigma has decreased and

00:07:34.340 you've seen things increased, we'll talk about left-handedness. So many years ago, it was strongly

00:07:41.560 discouraged for kids to write with their left hand. Um, and when people, you know, got over that

00:07:48.140 and were more neutral, the numbers went up and those numbers went up from 3% to 11%. And so that's,

00:07:55.060 you know, that's a number of, let's say 266%, but it was over 50 years. So it, it went up much less

00:08:04.540 and it was over 50 years. So, so I tried to do some calculations and I don't know if this is going to

00:08:09.380 like bore people or not, but just to try and say it in the same language, because if we're talking

00:08:15.020 about 50 years or we're talking about like eight years, you know, so, so for the, the girls attending

00:08:22.500 the clinic that was 60% increase per year and for left-handedness, it was 3% per year. Um, so,

00:08:31.900 you know, those were, those were really, um, those were big changes that people were seeing and they

00:08:36.860 were, they were seeing also this, because there were so many teen girls, it shifted, it shifted to

00:08:43.640 a population that was mostly boys to one that was mostly girls.

00:08:48.940 Yeah. Let me ask you about that. Historically, because when we had Abigail Schreier on the show,

00:08:53.100 who I know interviewed you extensively, she's a wonderful person. Uh, everybody should read her

00:08:58.540 book, Irreversible Damage. If you haven't already, my gosh, it was life-changing for me. It just showed

00:09:03.580 me so much and helped me a lot. Um, with my friends who have kids who are going through this,

00:09:08.440 just, I've referred everybody to it and to her. Um, but she had made the point about traditionally

00:09:14.380 gender dysphoria tended to be a thing with boys or males, not so much girls or females. Can you,

00:09:22.980 can you fill that out a little bit for us in terms of what it, how it used to be, you know,

00:09:27.260 25, 30 years ago? Yeah. I think that's really interesting because this is not, this is not a

00:09:32.900 new field and we have data from the 1970s and even before that. And the typical patient was a middle-aged

00:09:39.340 male, you know, or there might be children that were predominantly male. So, so that was a very

00:09:45.600 situation, a very different situation. And there's like late onset, which is when people start to have

00:09:50.340 gender dysphoria after puberty versus early onset. And so to shift from that to teenagers is huge.

00:09:57.620 And so here's an analogy. Um, let's pretend that you're a doctor who treats breast cancer and for

00:10:04.580 decades, decades and decades, your patients with breast cancer and all of the patients, all of the

00:10:11.080 practices that we knew of, uh, this was the patient profile was mostly middle-aged and older women. And

00:10:19.260 so let's say that happened, that was for decades. And then in one short period of time, 10 years, all of a

00:10:26.280 sudden it was mostly teenage boys and it would be irresponsible to just say business as usual. There's

00:10:35.220 nothing to see here, move along. Let's just pretend it's exactly the same thing because when the patient

00:10:43.060 profile changes so dramatically, you need to ask, is this the same kind of condition? Is this something else? Is this

00:10:53.640 going to be helped by what we're doing by this treatment or is it, or are these patients going to

00:10:58.500 be harmed by it? And so when you see huge changes, you have to start asking questions and you have to

00:11:04.720 like, you have to be open-minded to look for the possibility of multiple, multiple, um, factors because

00:11:12.700 sure there is decreased stigma, but, but when you see numbers like 4,500%, you need to think about maybe

00:11:20.900 there's something else going on too. Well, right. Exactly. Because this population does not,

00:11:25.320 so far as we can tell, seem to have been suffering in silence from the beginning of time, just waiting

00:11:30.280 for the door to open socially to this announcement. You know, it's we, traditionally it was more of a male

00:11:36.340 thing and now it's not as much. And it, that led me to the question of, you know, do we know what

00:11:44.340 causes it? Because I, we've had, we have transgender people in my family, um, in particular two men who

00:11:54.880 transitioned to female and they both say they knew from the time they were two, that they were in what

00:12:03.120 they would say is the wrong body. You know, they felt like they were girls and which is of course,

00:12:07.980 very different from what you've studied in these teenage girls who never showed any signs of being

00:12:12.460 confused about gender at all. And then suddenly, you know, hence the sudden onset, the rapid onset piece

00:12:17.480 of it, then suddenly said, I'm trans. So when you tell me a two-year-old is saying I belong in the

00:12:23.280 opposite body, that tells me it's, I don't want to use the term disorder, but it's, it's, there's something

00:12:28.540 in the brain that is sending the signal, right? That something's wrong, that the, you know, the body

00:12:35.140 doesn't match up with the identity, but what, so how does the medical community describe what's

00:12:41.300 happening in the two-year-olds? Right. So, um, this is very, as you know, contentious,

00:12:47.980 controversial. So there are a lot of different perspectives about this. And so, um, yes, one

00:12:54.560 thing that, that people have seen for a long time, um, are that there were young children

00:13:01.240 who had gender dysphoria that was severe. They really, um, felt uncomfortable. They, it was obvious

00:13:08.460 to everyone in their family that this child was suffering because they felt that they were, um,

00:13:15.680 they wanted to be the opposite sex. And so early onset gender dysphoria is typically starts in

00:13:22.140 childhood. And what's really interesting about it is, is, and this is something that a lot of people

00:13:28.760 don't know is that even when it starts in childhood, most of those kids, once they get through adolescence,

00:13:36.880 will not be transgender, they will more likely be lesbian, gay, or bisexual, bisexual, non-transgender

00:13:44.480 adults. However, some of those kids will continue to feel that, um, disconnect with their biological

00:13:51.000 body. And those people are said to persist and those people, um, do get benefit from, from transition.

00:13:58.200 So there's that early onset situation and those are the people that were studied, you know? So here we've

00:14:05.180 got people, you know, who are seem to start their symptoms as teenagers and some of them will say,

00:14:12.780 yes, this is when it started. And others will say, well, I felt it all along. Um, and I just didn't

00:14:19.080 know what it was, or this is how clinicians will, you know, how it's discussed. Um, and what's very

00:14:26.040 different. So back in the day, if teenager, if a teenager came in, especially teenage female,

00:14:31.740 um, who's gender dysphoric, her childhood was remembered by the parents and the child as being

00:14:39.380 very strongly gender dysphoric. So you can say that these kids who didn't have observable signs

00:14:45.920 as childhood, either they didn't have gender dysphoria back then, or if they had it, it was

00:14:51.220 much milder and different than those earlier cases where it was obvious to everybody, you know,

00:14:57.860 and, you know, toddlers really can't, are not very good at keeping secrets and lying. Like maybe there

00:15:04.980 are some who can, but, um, so this, this is one reason why it seems different. And so why do people

00:15:10.620 feel gender dysphoric? I think that's the million dollar question because we don't really know. And so

00:15:16.660 there, there, there are two competing models right now. Um, and I think that's really the crux of our

00:15:24.780 political debate about the topic. I mean, I can see it, you know, in, and I totally get the debate

00:15:32.200 about the teens and the rapid onset thing. I fully get it, but you know, if it's, if it's actually

00:15:37.180 happening in a two-year-old and I'm not talking about a boy who wants to dress up here or there

00:15:41.100 in a, in a girl's dress or a girl who wants to, like I did, wear nothing but boys, cowboy outfits

00:15:45.780 her entire childhood, that's not gender dysphoria. That's just role playing and experimentation

00:15:50.580 and having fun. Um, but genuine gender dysphoria, which I do believe exists in a very, very small

00:15:58.320 number of very young kids. They don't know what causes it. They don't, they don't know,

00:16:03.780 but it doesn't seem like at that age, there's any argument. It could really be a social contagion

00:16:08.900 of any kind. It's something in your brain. Do you agree with that? Well, I think there are two ways

00:16:14.400 to look at this. So there is a more developmental model that says that gender dysphoria and those

00:16:21.080 feelings can emerge from other things that are happening. So even in a young child, so,

00:16:27.240 so a young boy, for example, who likes ballet and is bullied for it may feel very strongly that he's

00:16:34.140 in the wrong body. Things would be easier if he were a girl and, you know, somebody, a teenager who

00:16:39.860 has suffered the trauma of rape could become gender dysphoric after that, or a teenager who's,

00:16:47.620 who is just realizing that, that she's same sex attracted and is struggling to accept herself and

00:16:52.760 gender dysphoria may emerge from that. And so in this developmental model, there are a lot of

00:16:58.900 different causes and depending on what the context is, the treatment is different. So multiple causes,

00:17:06.880 multiple treatments, but there is an oversimplified model, which I think you alluded to a little bit

00:17:12.100 where people believe there's one cause and one treatment. And the one cause is, is people believe

00:17:18.360 that there's something called a gender identity, which can either match your body or not match your

00:17:26.140 body. And so this, in this belief system is represents somebody's true self and gender dysphoria

00:17:33.020 or trans identification is due to the one cause that there is a mismatch. And in this belief,

00:17:38.580 there's one treatment, which is transition. And as soon as you discover, you've got this thing,

00:17:44.080 it's great and delay hurts people. So these are the two competing thoughts, this oversimplified

00:17:49.720 one cause, one treatment, one size fits all kind of approach versus this developmental,

00:17:55.940 looking at the big picture about what could be going on with this child. And as you would imagine,

00:18:03.560 folks that are in this clinicians are that are in this camp, believe in a thorough evaluation

00:18:09.880 to see what else is going on in the child's or the teen's life. And to see whether something might

00:18:15.940 be, whether there might be an underlying condition for this. And here, you know, here in America,

00:18:20.820 we're in the second camp here in America. We're not, we're not factoring in what your life experience

00:18:26.900 may have been, what trauma you have been. It appears we're more, we're just a firm. You,

00:18:31.440 you, aha, you've discovered that you're secretly the opposite sex, a firm, a firm, a firm. And here's

00:18:37.360 the pathway to changing your body. Should you choose to do so, so that it aligns with that identity.

00:18:43.840 Right. So this philosophy has become very popular in the United States. That's for sure. And it's,

00:18:48.960 and it looks like there's just one, you know, just one belief system because people get very offended

00:18:55.280 by the other thing. They're like, how dare you even talk about underlying, um, conditions? Like

00:19:00.160 it's very, how dare they not? How dare they not? Yeah. I think that there is an obligation to making

00:19:05.420 sure that people get the appropriate, um, diagnosis, the appropriate care and the appropriate

00:19:11.560 treatment, but there's some really positive things happening. So it may look like it's just like this in

00:19:17.560 the U S but other countries who have experienced doing gender transition for youth are reevaluating

00:19:24.720 the evidence and saying, wait a second, the evidence is not strong enough to defend doing these

00:19:31.600 very, um, significant interventions with permanent effects on you. So they're taking a more cautious

00:19:39.560 approach. So Sweden, Finland, the UK, um, are, are taking a little bit like, Oh, wait a second there.

00:19:46.140 We do need to evaluate these kids. Um, and in the United States. So this is a surprise and it's,

00:19:52.300 I would say it's a little hot off the press. Um, recently three very highly ranked individuals

00:19:59.560 who work in the field of, of providing transition, two of them who are trans themselves. So one is the

00:20:08.220 current, well, one is either the current or incoming president for U S PATH. And one is the current or

00:20:16.080 incoming president for W PATH. Both are trans women. Um, one's a psychologist. One is a surgeon.

00:20:22.000 What does PATH stand for? Sure. So, so there's a, an organization called the World Professional

00:20:29.600 Association for Transgender Health. Um, and then the U S one is basically U S instead of world.

00:20:37.600 And this is a group of clinicians, um, individuals, um, people with family members, um, who really,

00:20:46.000 you know, if you want to talk about, you know, sort of having a position, they're very strongly pro

00:20:50.720 transition and pro, um, quick transition, uh, quick transition. So, so anyway, so these kind of,

00:20:58.860 of this organization, there are three people from within the organization that said, wait a second,

00:21:05.000 we have some concerns. We are concerned that, um, we're seeing kids not get better from just

00:21:12.360 transitioning. We're concerned that one of them, I think it was an interview with Abigail Schreier.

00:21:17.080 I said, I'm concerned about what I would say was sloppy care. Now, personally, I would call it

00:21:23.200 ideologically motivated care because it's, that's what it seemed to me. But, but this person who is

00:21:31.740 a trans person themselves, themselves said, I am concerned. And although they don't like the term

00:21:38.460 rapid onset gender dysphoria, or like the term social contagion, they did say, look, teenagers are

00:21:44.960 influenced by their peers. And we can see this in a lot of things. We can see this with depressive

00:21:50.600 symptoms. We can see it with, with eating disorders. Why should this be any different?

00:21:55.680 Right. Right. Why is this the one area in which they would be uninfluenciable? Right. That doesn't

00:22:01.300 make any sense. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so you can't take the person out of themselves. You know,

00:22:06.880 you are an adolescent, you are a human being. So, and then the other person from WPATH, who's been

00:22:14.920 very highly regarded, has been in this field for years, did an interview and she said, I am really

00:22:20.220 concerned that people are using the suicide narrative to manipulate parents and children

00:22:25.960 into transitioning because we don't know whether transition will increase suicide, will decrease

00:22:33.380 suicide or fail to change it. And so it's irresponsible to take this as a threat, you know,

00:22:41.840 and push people either towards a treatment or away from a treatment. So we need to, we need to really

00:22:47.580 be careful that people are not using this statistic to scare parents into, into treatment.

00:22:55.300 That's great news. The trans activist community has been wielding that threat, you know, to parents

00:23:01.640 who say, you know, my kid, I don't think my kid actually is trans. I think my kid kind of glommed

00:23:05.540 onto this in the midst of a social trauma, or we can get into all the reasons why they do.

00:23:11.840 And, and the response to the parent can't just be, if you don't affirm, they're going to kill

00:23:15.700 themselves because that's, that's quite a heavy burden to put on parents. And it shouldn't be used

00:23:22.240 as a sword against parents who are genuinely searching for true diagnoses of their kids. Wait,

00:23:27.780 let me pause you there because I want to squeeze in a quick break. There's so much more to go over.

00:23:31.340 Um, including what, what does the typical profile of a, of a kid who might be subject to rapid onset

00:23:41.040 gender dysphoria look like? And, you know, she's got some, some red flags, um, and some sort of

00:23:47.520 warning signs for parents who might be concerned. And we'll pick it up there next.

00:23:50.840 Here with me today, Dr. Lisa Littman. This is her first interview since recently leaving Brown

00:24:02.220 University, which I inaccurately stated before I had pulled her article. Um, they never actually

00:24:06.840 pulled the article. They never actually pulled the study. They just made you sort of redo it,

00:24:10.680 even though it had already been peer reviewed. We'll get to that. So you decide to take a look

00:24:15.220 at all of this and, um, early onset gender dysphoria. We knew about that. Wasn't a particular

00:24:20.540 shock, but this sort of rapid onset amongst teen girls was a new phenomenon and you took a hard

00:24:27.080 look at it and you surveyed, as I understand it, about 256 parents. You recruited them through websites

00:24:34.780 where parents had been discussing sudden gender transitions. I mean, obviously you went to the

00:24:39.600 parents who'd been expressing this. It happened in their families. And an important point to this

00:24:45.320 story is you're doing that is not an unusual methodology in conducting research. Why, why it's

00:24:55.200 not? I mean, because the critics will later say you went, you went to the clan to find out whether

00:25:01.560 black people are good. You're like, well, whoa, whoa, wait, that's not what happened.

00:25:07.620 Right. Exactly. So, so before we, we get to that, um, and I do want to talk about it,

00:25:13.020 I just want to, I just want to point out just a couple of things because we talk about trans

00:25:17.140 activists and I want to be really clear that this perspective, um, activists don't speak for the

00:25:25.080 entire transgender community. There are transgender people. I say that about three times a show whenever

00:25:29.700 we're doing a trans show. Okay. So maybe, you know, pro transition activists or, or, you know,

00:25:34.820 so it's, it's really, there's a broad, um, range of experiences and I know transgender people who,

00:25:40.140 um, were helped by transition who are very concerned about this issue. So, um, so yeah,

00:25:46.020 so I don't want to be, um, you know, um, painting with too broad, uh, uh, a cloth there. And one thing

00:25:52.740 that, um, if, if you don't say, or if I don't say it'll come up, but rapid onset gender dysphoria is

00:25:58.780 not a formal diagnosis. And that was one thing that when my, um, my paper, when plus one asked

00:26:04.300 me to revise the paper, um, they asked me to emphasize that it is not a formal diagnosis

00:26:10.960 at this time. And just to make it super clear. And they wanted to me to emphasize that the re that

00:26:17.560 this was a parent report study. The information was taken from parents, which, you know, it was

00:26:23.280 already in the title and in the method section and throughout the paper, but they wanted more

00:26:27.580 emphasis on that. So, um, anyway, so those are the, those are the two things that I just wanted to

00:26:32.420 say, but about the research, um, yes, it is not unusual to, to gather information in research,

00:26:40.440 um, by asking parents about their children. There's a whole body of literature and even the,

00:26:46.800 there is some literature that supports social transition, which the folks who are upset about

00:26:53.620 my research are very supportive of that research, um, use parent reports. And so what's really

00:27:00.580 interesting is I didn't, I didn't create or invent any of the methods I use these in the research,

00:27:07.440 these have been used for decades and they haven't caused any kind of outrage until now. So I think part

00:27:15.400 of what's happening is that people really feel very strongly about their beliefs and, you know,

00:27:21.820 what is, what they believe is best. And if the research is consistent with what they want to

00:27:29.160 believe, then it's all, it's all fine and good. But if it challenges it, then there needs to be

00:27:35.960 attack. And if that attack needs to be the methods or, or something else, because when you have research

00:27:41.080 using exactly the same methods and one has one conclusion, one has another conclusion and folks

00:27:48.520 are saying, well, this is fine and a good study and robust, and this is trash, you know, you,

00:27:55.300 you kind of have to think like, what is going on here? Okay. So what, yeah. So take us to the bottom

00:28:01.400 line of what you found after doing the study with 256 parents. What was your conclusion?

00:28:07.760 So my conclusion is that parents gave very detailed and thoughtful information about their kids

00:28:14.440 and they are worried about their kids' mental health. And they saw a lot of behaviors that were

00:28:21.620 surprising. And some of these behaviors support that social influence could be possible. And so

00:28:30.420 between the behaviors, such as, um, groups mocking people who aren't transgender and behaviors with,

00:28:40.340 um, you know, really, um, being very positive about it. And I'll, I'll tell you one story that's really

00:28:46.980 compelling, but, um, but also these clusters, they describe these friend groups where 50% or more of

00:28:54.200 the friend group became transgender identified. But there's one story that really drives home this,

00:29:01.260 this issue about kids influencing kids. There were two cases unrelated where these kids were with their

00:29:10.080 peer groups at school and came to the conclusion that they were transgender. The kid, the kids,

00:29:17.000 both of them actually spent a summer away just in a different environment, made new friends,

00:29:22.560 had romantic relationships. And while they were away, they concluded that they really weren't

00:29:27.340 transgender after all. And these kids were, when they came back, were terrified to face their peer group

00:29:35.100 and asked their parents to help them transfer high schools so that they wouldn't face these kids

00:29:40.920 because they were concerned that these kids wouldn't understand. They would mock them. They

00:29:45.080 would treat them like a traitor. And both of these families were able to relocate and help the,

00:29:51.260 and the kid transferred high schools and was thriving. So I think that speaks about that there is,

00:29:58.420 kids are influenced by their peers. And again, this is a first descriptive study. So this is not,

00:30:03.840 you know, conclusively proving anything. This is just raising hypotheses. And then the other

00:30:10.300 interesting thing that came out of this is, well, maybe this process might be like a maladaptive

00:30:16.560 coping mechanism. So like the way anorexia, people are suffering, and then they come to the idea that

00:30:25.200 the reason that they're suffering is because they're too fat and the solution is to lose weight. And so we know

00:30:32.060 that that doesn't solve problems of depression and anxiety and can cause new problems. But this is,

00:30:38.520 you know, it's, it's a coping mechanism for pain. But it has other consequences. So the stories are

00:30:47.980 people that had, you know, mental health issues and trauma. And it just was, it painted a picture

00:30:55.520 that this is possible and more research is needed.

00:30:59.340 And it's, I don't, I mean, I'll, this is my own commentary, not yours, but I don't think it's any

00:31:04.500 accident that it arises at a time when it's considered sort of uncool to just be a straight,

00:31:11.940 possibly white, possibly male, whatever kid doesn't, whatever. It's not that sexy for the

00:31:18.120 young girls who, I don't know if there's been a breakdown in race, but like people need a card

00:31:23.340 to play in today's day and age to be told that they matter. And this is a, this is a card.

00:31:28.940 And it gets affirmed in the same way on any other sort of minority identification or quote,

00:31:34.060 victim identification would be rewarded. And so the kids who might not have that previously,

00:31:39.860 or might not feel that they belong to a group that supports them previously,

00:31:43.140 this is an entry into being special, feeling connected, feeling more popular, and maybe having

00:31:51.440 some of your idiosyncrasies explained away in a way that's more acceptable. That's, that's my own

00:31:58.300 addition. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, well, I know it's hard to be a teenager and it's even harder to be

00:32:04.800 a teenager right now. And things are very polarized now. I mean, heck, when I was a kid, you could get up

00:32:12.440 to the point of college and really not know about politics. And I mean, and, and smart kids, not just,

00:32:19.660 you know, because it wasn't in everybody's face all the time. And so we've become very polarized.

00:32:24.840 And although in some circles, you know, kids may be really, um, you know, supported for being LGBT,

00:32:33.440 there are other circles where they're going to be bullied for it. So, I mean, it depends where you are.

00:32:39.420 Um, and so the way I would look at it in terms of different, different perspectives is we've got,

00:32:47.640 and how we deal with, with, you know, everybody is different. There are all kinds of differences,

00:32:51.900 but we can start out with discrimination and stigma and move to tolerance and support.

00:32:58.820 And then maybe as an unintended consequence, maybe sort of glorifying. And so I think the most

00:33:05.720 important thing is that we've moved from discrimination and stigma to support. And

00:33:09.600 that's, that's a beautiful thing that we are, you know, tolerant, more tolerant and more supportive of

00:33:15.500 LGBT individuals. Um, I think as we're trying to navigate this, um, you know, whether we're making it,

00:33:24.220 you know, sort of a little bit more glamorous or making anything more glamorous, I don't want to

00:33:29.180 pick on this. I mean, this is, you know, there are a lot of things like this, but I think we're sort

00:33:34.140 of grappling with where should we be? And so the answer is yes, we should be in this tolerance and

00:33:40.260 support, but we don't want to pressure people into needing to identify a certain way.

00:33:47.680 Nor do we want to celebrate something that may not be real and may have real downsides physically,

00:33:56.000 mentally, and emotionally, you know, as we're seeing some of these D transitioners come out

00:33:59.520 and talk about, you know, it's it, anorexia isn't the perfect analogy, but it's, it's got some

00:34:05.660 parallels in that you would never put an anorexic on the school stage and give her snaps when you're

00:34:11.400 looking at a clearly skinny girl and say, you say you're fat, you are fat. Yes. Go ahead. Keep

00:34:18.300 dieting. You wouldn't do that. You wouldn't celebrate it or make her feel like she'd now

00:34:22.580 joined some sort of cool click, um, that was going to be profiled in magazines in a way that

00:34:27.540 was laudatory. This is something Abigail Schreier has been saying. And, and if you have genuine

00:34:32.500 gender dysphoria, that's one thing, but if you're glomming onto this, whether you know it or not,

00:34:37.400 because you want, you don't, you don't want to be a lesbian, you don't want to be something that

00:34:42.520 you consider not special. Um, this is deeply problematic. The road towards transitioning

00:34:49.080 medically and otherwise is fraught with peril, fraught with a lot of peril. Um, so it's, to me,

00:34:56.880 it's all part of the abuse by our medical community of these kids who, after one expression of, I might

00:35:03.840 have this problem, get affirmed, affirmed, affirmed all the way to top surgery and beyond without

00:35:09.720 anybody taking the time to really understand what's going on. So let me ask you this, because

00:35:16.520 you say in the study, the overall finding that I read, this is from you among the young people

00:35:20.720 who were reported on 83% of whom were designated female at birth, more than one third had friendship

00:35:27.660 groups in which 50% or more of the youths began to identify as transgender in a similar timeframe.

00:35:34.540 So do you think, you know, in the same way people used to think, well, don't hang out with that kid

00:35:38.140 because he's gay and I don't want you to be gay. You know, like back in the, back in the sort of dark

00:35:41.980 ages of our country, um, being gay is not contagious. Being lesbian is not contagious. I don't want to say

00:35:48.560 being trans is contagious, but there is an element of like, if you see your daughter hanging out in a

00:35:54.060 group of four kids and three out of four are trans, you might posit her odds go up of saying she's

00:36:00.500 going of her saying she's trans. Right. I think we get caught up in the language a little bit because

00:36:06.140 are trans or are not trans. I think that's, you know, it's a very definite thing. I think what

00:36:12.700 we're talking about is gender dysphoria. And so we should be thinking about this as, you know, sort of

00:36:19.420 the feelings around not being comfortable with your body. And so no, you know, it's, it's first

00:36:26.180 of all, sexual orientation and gender dysphoria are very different things. So it's, it's important

00:36:32.840 that this, this is, this is very different. Um, so people will oversimplify the topic and say,

00:36:39.420 oh, she's saying that, you know, your friends or the internet is going to make you trans.

00:36:43.880 Right. And that is not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that it's plausible that a set

00:36:50.860 of beliefs can be shared from person to person and in groups, um, that our beliefs like vague

00:36:59.680 symptoms should be interpreted as gender dysphoria and proof of being transgender, uh, beliefs around

00:37:06.240 the only way to feel better is transition. And the beliefs that anyone who disagrees with you

00:37:11.220 is, um, abusive, transphobic or something like that. And it's those sets of beliefs,

00:37:18.120 in my opinion, that can definitely be shared person to person, but could lead a vulnerable kid

00:37:23.780 to come to the conclusion that they are, that they are transgender and that they need transition.

00:37:29.380 Um, especially the shutting down this, the idea that we should be, you know, exploring,

00:37:37.300 we should be talking about and looking at what else is going on.

00:37:41.460 You found that, um, uh, 62.5% of those identifying as trans or expressing gender dysphoria, 62.5%

00:37:55.300 had been diagnosed with at least one mental health disorder or neurodevelopmental disability prior to

00:38:03.020 onset. That's a, that's a big percentage. Can you, what do you, what kinds of mental health disorders

00:38:08.780 or neurodevelopmental disabilities? Yeah. So the things that were common are depression, anxiety, um,

00:38:17.900 ADHD, um, and autism. So those are, are psychological and neurodevelopmental. And so what was reported is

00:38:29.820 that these were, were kids who had these diagnoses before they became gender dysphoric and people

00:38:35.560 would say, well, how do you really know when they come become gender dysphoric? Um, because maybe

00:38:39.760 they didn't tell you. So in my study with the D transitioners, people reported on their own

00:38:45.220 experiences and they found, you know, they reported that they had these diagnoses, um, before they became

00:38:52.340 gender dysphoric. So, so I think just what we're seeing from that is at baseline, these kid,

00:38:58.460 kids had some, some vulnerabilities. And again, there's a real, uh, separation between whether

00:39:06.260 we're allowed to talk about underlying conditions or not. So in this, in the gender affirmative, um,

00:39:13.160 pro transition mindset, um, the context isn't important. And so if there are psychological issues,

00:39:21.380 they believe that it could be secondary to the gender dysphoria, like the discomfort makes them,

00:39:26.140 you know, makes them depressed or anxious or from poor treatment, you know, discrimination,

00:39:31.440 all of those things will lead to depression. And they believe that if there are psychological issues,

00:39:37.980 it's not likely to be an underlying disorder. And somehow that's taken to, we're not allowed to,

00:39:44.020 to talk about underlying disorders. So in this broader developmental perspective, like, yes, it's,

00:39:50.560 it's possible that people could be depressed or anxious because of poor treatment and discrimination,

00:39:57.300 and it could be completely unrelated, but it could also be the underlying cause for their gender

00:40:03.260 dysphoria. And there's no research that says it can't be that, but it's really been a shift in our

00:40:09.380 conversation that it's become taboo to talk about that. And so that's the problem. It's not,

00:40:14.680 it's not just a taboo by the media people or sort of the, what we call the woke scolds. It's the

00:40:20.020 medical community. The medical community is now trying to shut down discussions like that. And you

00:40:26.020 were chastised. I know I want to get into the crazy statement, the apology from best H Marcus, the,

00:40:33.800 the Brown university school of public health. That was your school, uh, Dean who the, the addendum,

00:40:41.140 she sort of put onto, into the, like your article talking about what his problems were. I thought

00:40:47.360 were, were nuts. I mean, she, she talked about how, look, the, the, um, the conclusions of the study

00:40:53.480 could be used to discredit efforts to support transgender youth and invalidate the perspectives

00:40:58.300 of members of the transgender community could be used to discredit efforts to support. Well,

00:41:05.420 is it factual or isn't? I mean, like, that's, that, that's the question, not how someone's going

00:41:10.260 to use it. That's not relevant at all. How someone's going to use or misuse the, the facts

00:41:16.080 that you can, that you landed on. It could be used to invalidate a transgender person's perspective.

00:41:23.700 Well, too bad. But if it, if it tends to invalidate them, then that's, that's your judgment,

00:41:30.220 but you don't not publish it or get criticized for doing a study because it could be used in one

00:41:36.740 of the following ways that someone might find hurtful. Well, I, I think there's a, there's a

00:41:42.560 little issue like, yes, we should be sensitive and kind and care about people, you know, about all

00:41:48.100 people, especially people who are marginalized. Um, but I think this is a misconception that people

00:41:55.860 having one experience with gender dysphoria shouldn't be used to invalidate people with other

00:42:01.320 experiences. I mean, I, I think, I think maybe that's what they're getting at. And so at no

00:42:06.880 point did I say that this applies to every person with gender dysphoria, right? You know, this is,

00:42:12.860 this may be a very tiny population. It might be a medium sized population. We don't know yet,

00:42:17.260 but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who really suffer from gender dysphoria and are helped

00:42:23.300 by transition and you know, that it shouldn't invalidate someone who had early onset gender

00:42:31.140 dysphoria and was helped by transition that somebody else had gender dysphoria that resolved

00:42:36.620 or that somebody else transitioned and was harmed by it. Like it's all part of the puzzle and it's all

00:42:43.240 part of our understanding. And, you know, having that information about different types and different

00:42:50.400 outcomes that improves healthcare for people who are transgender or for any person who is, um,

00:42:57.560 considering transition. Like if you go to the doctor for, let's say a knee replacement surgery,

00:43:02.860 you don't want your doctor to say, everybody does great. No one has any problems. You don't want them

00:43:10.000 to say, I mean, if that's not true, you don't, you don't want an overly sunny, um, expectation

00:43:16.100 and you don't want an, an overly negative, like you want accurate information of what are the range

00:43:23.320 of outcomes that people have. And so shutting that down, that conference conversation really seems

00:43:31.120 like that could hurt people, you know, to not know that. And so particular are children. I mean,

00:43:37.560 it's not, it's not just grown adults making informed decisions. We're talking about kids as young as 12.

00:43:42.940 And in some cases, even younger, even here in the United States, there are reports of 13 year old

00:43:49.240 girls getting double mastectomies. That's madness. That's abuse. And more and more, the rights are

00:43:57.260 being taken away from parents to weigh in on this at all. We're going to talk about that and about Dr.

00:44:03.760 Lipman's newest research on D transitioners. Again, people who transitioned and then decided to

00:44:10.240 transition back in just a minute. Also from your study to following 41% of kids had expressed

00:44:22.520 a non-heterosexual orientation beforehand. And while you accurately point out that sexual orientation is

00:44:29.740 not the same thing as your gender identification. Um, in other words, you can be a woman who transitions

00:44:35.480 to male and still be attracted to men as you were as a woman. They don't necessarily go hand in hand

00:44:43.600 transitioning, uh, in one lane. Doesn't mean you transition in the other. Um, what you found is

00:44:49.700 that there's a high percentage of these kids in the rapid onset field who thought they were lesbian.

00:44:56.000 And this is almost seen by some as a modern day form of conversion therapy, where rather than saying,

00:45:03.520 I'm a lesbian, they say, I'm just, I'm not even a woman. I'm good. I'm straight, but I'm a guy.

00:45:09.040 Yeah, exactly. So, so here's the thing. I think the elephant in the room on this topic is homophobia,

00:45:15.720 that people really are having a difficult time accepting themselves as lesbian, gay, or bisexual.

00:45:24.140 And that's what we're hearing from D transitioners. Many of them, um, feel that why

00:45:30.360 they felt gender dysphoric was, was in retrospect, uh, having a really hard time accepting themselves

00:45:38.380 and just not wanting to be lesbian, gay, or bisexual. And so helping young people, um, accept

00:45:44.800 themselves, like that's really important to, to help these young LGB people, um, to be comfortable

00:45:52.520 in their own skin and not feel that they need to transition. The other issue. Um, so yeah,

00:45:59.000 some people say that are worried that this is kind of like a gay conversion therapy. And I try not to

00:46:06.160 self-imposed self-imposed, right? By the internet or by the peer group. Um, sorry, we're keeping it

00:46:11.200 tight today because we got all these commercial breaks we need to get in, but so I'm going to

00:46:13.920 pause it there again and get right back. Cause there's so much more to go over, including the

00:46:17.260 backlash you got. And then the D transition study that you're doing, which doesn't have the one thing

00:46:22.740 that you were criticized for the first time around, which is just reliance on parents.

00:46:26.000 Now you went right to the sources and have firsthand data, um, which we'll see if that

00:46:30.880 silences the critics, Lisa. Um, anyway, stand by and we'll get right back to our conversation

00:46:36.120 with Dr. Lisa Lippman right here.

00:46:42.800 Before we move on from the original study, I've got to ask you about the social media input

00:46:46.740 because it looks like according to your, your analysis, 86.7% of parents reported that along

00:46:53.820 with the rapid onset of the gender dysphoria, their child either had an increase in social

00:47:00.000 media slash internet use, uh, or belong to a friend group in which one or multiple friends

00:47:05.560 became transgender identified or both, but social media use. And Abigail talked to us about this

00:47:11.540 hours spent on YouTube, on Reddit, on, um, Tumblr. This was a common thread in these young people.

00:47:20.060 Yes, that's, that's correct. And so this was several years ago right now. Um, it would be

00:47:26.880 hard to find a teenager that doesn't spend hours a day on social media. Um, so this was a couple of

00:47:34.480 years ago, but what parents noticed that they were getting really, um, pulled into, um, certain types

00:47:43.260 of, of social media, things on social media that, um, you know, the YouTube videos, um, Tumblr. And

00:47:51.860 so I asked a lot of questions about that because when I was preparing to do my study, I looked at the

00:47:58.880 social media content that was about this issue and it was quite alarming. So what I saw was that

00:48:05.740 teenagers, maybe on Reddit were saying, you know, I have these feelings. I never fit in. I feel lonely.

00:48:13.220 Does that mean I'm trans? And the answer is almost always yes. So these vague feelings, common,

00:48:19.620 you know, very common experiences. That means you're trans. I saw these in-group out-group dynamics

00:48:26.000 on social media where, um, people were being very positive when anyone came out, but they were really

00:48:34.580 very derogatory towards anybody who was not trans. Um, and so that looked a lot like what happens in

00:48:42.380 social settings around individuals with eating disorders. And then there were also tips and

00:48:48.280 tricks on how to trick, um, you know, how to deceive your parents into getting hormones and how

00:48:54.860 to misrepresent your history to the doctor on how to get hormones. And so I asked those questions of

00:49:02.520 the parents and the parents, you know, uh, said, yes, my kids have been exposed to, and they checked,

00:49:07.800 you know, um, how to tell your transgender that if you wait to transition, you will regret it.

00:49:14.260 That, um, if your parents say no, that means they're transphobic. You know, if you want hormones,

00:49:19.760 you should lie to your doctor just to get them faster. And so a lot of people said, well, how do

00:49:25.540 the parents know what the kids were, were exposed to or what advice? And people gave really detailed

00:49:31.440 answers about their kids printed it out and showed them, or they saw their kids sharing this

00:49:37.480 information with other people. Or, you know, there was one kid who desisted, came through the other

00:49:44.760 side and said to his parents, um, yeah, this is, I learned this from these online sites. So, um,

00:49:53.720 so I do think.

00:49:54.580 Yet another reason to be monitoring what your kids are doing on the internet.

00:49:57.520 There's so many apps now that you can, you know, use to sort of keep an eye on what your children

00:50:01.900 are doing. It's not, it's, I mean, I guess technically it's an invasion of privacy, but

00:50:06.060 it's also very consistent with your parental responsibilities to keep them safe. So any

00:50:10.680 random stranger can have access to your kid now on the internet and the messaging is really messed

00:50:15.960 up, not just on this issue. So if you feel bad about it, get over it. Um, okay. So you publish

00:50:22.340 the study, you say, these are some things I looked at. Here's some things that we should have

00:50:27.160 further study on and all hell breaks loose. Um, you're called a bigot by some of these

00:50:34.720 pro-transition trans activists. Um, it's really kind of insane. Brown university, um, they,

00:50:42.000 people wanted the affiliation between them and you to be removed from the article. Brown to its

00:50:45.740 credit declined to do that. But the art of the, the magazine's editor apologized for not having

00:50:51.340 provided better context for the research, promised additional review. By the way, it had already been

00:50:55.620 peer reviewed by two independent academics and one academic editor. The medical community

00:51:00.040 comes out. I mean, psychology today published an open letter from transgender allies, calling

00:51:04.400 your work method, a lot of logically flawed, unethical for relying on parent reports, American

00:51:10.100 psychological association, American psychiatric association, co-signed a statement with other,

00:51:13.940 other medical groups. This is not a diagnosis to be used. The term is likely to stigmatize

00:51:19.660 real rapid onset of gender dysphoria. It's likely to cause harm to transgender people. It lacks

00:51:24.020 empirical evidence on and on it goes. I mentioned the one person, uh, Diane Aaron saft, a prominent

00:51:29.840 child gender psychologist told the economist that this is the akin to quote recruiting from the clan

00:51:34.540 are all right sites to demonstrate that blacks really were an inferior race. Your use of parents

00:51:39.580 to speak about what their children. I mean, this, you would, this makes it sound like you were like

00:51:45.500 Lisa Littman turf. Let's get them. Let trans people are bad. We have to stop the opposite.

00:51:53.400 Anybody who's listened to this interview for the past, for the past 65 minutes knows you're cautious.

00:51:58.280 You are balanced. You are quick to make the other side's argument to point out the weaknesses in your

00:52:04.420 own side argument. What was this like for you personally and professionally to have the knives

00:52:10.780 out for you in this way? Well, in a word, it was very stressful. Um, and it was unexpected. I did not

00:52:17.500 expect this kind of backlash because I was taking a very measured approach. Um, everywhere in medicine,

00:52:24.000 we're concerned about, we don't want to under treat people, but we also don't want to over treat people

00:52:28.720 and, um, you know, asking questions and knowing what's going on is really, is really important.

00:52:34.100 Um, so the question, like, how did I, how did I manage this? Um, yeah, it was stressful. So there

00:52:42.460 were a couple of things that, um, a couple of ways that I responded. One is I remembered that

00:52:50.040 I am speaking for people to help them. You know, there are people who don't have a voice who are

00:52:56.140 being harmed by this particular way of not evaluating people before providing, um, um,

00:53:05.420 hormones and, and surgeries. So people are being harmed and a lot of people can't speak about it

00:53:11.500 because they've got a family member who's involved or because they're afraid of losing their job.

00:53:16.540 And so I felt that I was in a position that I had to speak out for these people. And I was grateful

00:53:24.020 that I could. Um, the other thing is, so some of the things people said were, were just really

00:53:30.200 bizarre, um, and, and very extreme. And so I remember, you know, the people who were saying

00:53:37.680 that, Oh, she's the worst, or even saying she's a hero. These are people who don't know me. Like

00:53:43.720 they're working on limited information. The people in my family, my friends, I have a group of people

00:53:49.560 who love me and know me, but most of this is by strangers who are really reacting by whether they

00:53:55.820 like the findings or don't like the findings. Um, you know, and the, and the third thing is just

00:54:01.260 remembering that people, you know, in terms of the methodological issues is that, um, a lot of people

00:54:08.140 are using a, um, let's say a double standard. There's something called isolated calls for rigor

00:54:13.380 where, you know, we, we all want to be right. We all want to be confirmed in what we believe we're

00:54:19.940 human beings, right? So, so we're going to look for information that confirms that we're right.

00:54:24.560 And we're going to be a little more negative about information that, that challenges our beliefs or

00:54:28.920 says that we're wrong. And there's something called isolated calls for rigor in which the proof you

00:54:35.260 demand for something that challenges your beliefs is much higher than, uh, what you would demand for

00:54:41.260 something that is, um, along, you know, that actually is within your, your beliefs. So, um,

00:54:48.940 so yeah, so that's how I saw, you know, there's this method, this methodology, you know, fine in

00:54:55.500 this other study, but horrible in mind, you know, unless your name is Lisa Littman, it's fine.

00:55:00.740 You gotta disregard it. So what, so yeah, take a breath.

00:55:05.280 They made you basically do it again and take another look at it. And they stood there,

00:55:10.480 they're really everything held up. You're all of your conclusions held up. They put a bunch of sort

00:55:14.700 of cautionary language on there. Like, well, she went to the parents and didn't know that,

00:55:18.100 but the, the study held up second time around. Um, but I wondered whether there was fallout for you

00:55:23.680 on, on campus with other, with colleagues, you know, with students, how did that go?

00:55:29.980 Okay. So, so first it was the, actually the results stood, but the conclusions changed because

00:55:36.060 they were, um, you know, they, they had much more of a framing around the parent report. So,

00:55:41.860 so that was, that was sort of the changes in the paper. So on campus, um, I'm glad you asked that

00:55:46.840 because I, I do want to clarify that my position at Brown, um, I was affiliated as an assistant

00:55:53.980 professor of the practice. And so that's like an adjunct professor. So I was not teaching courses.

00:55:59.920 I was not, you know, on campus very often. So my direct, um, interactions with people, um, it was

00:56:09.040 not what, you know, what you would just automatically assume. Um, you know, I would say that my

00:56:16.200 relationships did become fraught. So when I started with my affiliation, uh, January of 2018, I was very

00:56:23.340 open about my research. So my research started before I got to Brown. And so when I was affiliated

00:56:28.620 with Brown, I said, this is what I'm working on. This is my research. Every faculty meeting I went

00:56:33.300 to, when people introduced themselves, I would say, I'm working on, you know, gender dysphoria,

00:56:37.700 adolescence, social influence, social influence, detransition. So there was nothing, you know,

00:56:43.720 nothing that wasn't, that wasn't open. Um, it was when, so my paper got published and then it was

00:56:50.420 with the pushback that things became very uncomfortable and fraught. Um, so what I heard was people

00:56:58.460 were, you know, that the leadership was getting complaints from, from students and alum, but I

00:57:04.080 know that they were also getting positive things from students and alum because people CC'd me and

00:57:08.980 same thing with, you know, um, faculty members. And, um, so, and, but I was, what I like to say is that

00:57:16.360 there was loud outrage and quiet support. So this was, you know, on social media, you know, people were,

00:57:25.660 were furious, but personally, I was getting emails from, you know, from a couple of students,

00:57:32.800 people from the LGBT community, other faculty members, professors that I knew saying, I really

00:57:41.280 support what you're doing. I think this is really important. And I heard from a lot of clinicians

00:57:45.480 saying, I'm seeing this in my practice. This is not what I've seen before. Thank you for looking

00:57:52.000 into this. And I'm really, you know, I'm really sorry about all the, you know, all the things that

00:57:58.740 are going on. All the targeting. It's not, it's not just like people are looking at you saying

00:58:02.220 methodologically flawed and it's a crappy study. They're saying bigot. It's like, well, they take

00:58:08.320 it next level. Like, Whoa. Okay. This is all the personal attacks. I should mention that, um, the

00:58:13.180 former Dean of Harvard medical school supported you. And that was good is that we need, we need more

00:58:17.220 studies on possibilities and causes that's, that makes sense. That's sense. Jeffrey flyer. Uh,

00:58:23.500 what's needed is a campaign to mobilize the academic community to protect our ability to

00:58:27.720 conduct and communicate such research, whether or not our methods and conclusions provoke controversy

00:58:32.980 or even outrage. So good for him. So then, then you decide to do another study,

00:58:40.660 which I, I love because you're clearly not easily deterred, you know, out of the frying pan

00:58:46.680 and into the fire. Um, and this one is on important. It is important. And this one's on

00:58:52.340 D transitioners, which is also controversial. Some in the sort of transgender activist community say

00:58:59.620 what, that this isn't, they say it's not real or do they say you just shouldn't talk about the

00:59:04.920 D transitioners because it's, you know, somehow dangerous. There are a couple, right. There's a couple

00:59:08.900 things. So there was like, they don't exist was the first thing. And then, Oh, the numbers are too

00:59:14.760 small to even matter. Or if people didn't see transition, it's only because of, of discrimination

00:59:20.740 and, you know, no one regrets transition. Um, and so these are ways that there's been pushback

00:59:27.920 against it. And I think that the experiences of D transitioners, again, there are some that are

00:59:34.520 happy with their transitions and they, they de-transition because they were discriminated

00:59:38.720 against, but there are people who were harmed by their transition and they feel it was a mistake.

00:59:43.880 And they regret that their doctors didn't ask them questions about why they felt that way. Um,

00:59:50.040 and it's an inconvenient truth, like their existence and their voices really raise questions about that.

00:59:59.200 There are many different experiences from people with gender dysphoria, and there are many different

01:00:04.240 experiences from transition. And you can't have this oversimplified view that one cause one treatment,

01:00:11.200 everybody benefits. And if you delay it, you're going to harm. Like it's so, you know, there's no time

01:00:17.720 to evaluate why someone feels that way. So it's really, I think that's the crux of the pushback is that

01:00:24.140 these inconvenient truths about these people who exist, um, you know, raises questions about,

01:00:32.600 is it wise to just oversimplify and just go straight forward and transition? Just if people

01:00:39.880 just based on self-diagnosis instead of doing an evaluation, we're letting, we're letting prepubescent

01:00:45.520 kids make these calls. It's kind of insane. And Abigail's pointed out, um, that, you know,

01:00:51.580 since your original study, the American Medical Association, the American College of Physicians,

01:00:56.260 American Academy of Pediatrics, American Psychological Association, and Pediatric

01:00:59.820 Endocrine Society have all endorsed gender affirming care as the standard for treating patients who

01:01:06.220 self-identify as transgender having gender dysphoria. The American Psychological Association's

01:01:12.060 guidelines, um, what that means, in other words, for affirming care is a care that is supportive of

01:01:18.960 the identity. And they said specifically, and I'm quoting, psychologists are encouraged to adapt or

01:01:23.560 modify their understanding of gender, broadening the range of variation viewed as healthy and

01:01:28.900 normative. So make no mistake about it. If you bring your child to a physician, to a pediatrician,

01:01:35.720 to a psychologist, the standard of care for that doctor is to affirm, period, to affirm your child's

01:01:44.240 gender dysphoria as being real. And their, their identity is trans. And that may not actually be

01:01:50.200 the correct diagnosis in your child's case. And the D transitioners in a way prove it.

01:01:59.200 Right. And I think that's why there's so much pushback against them, which I think is so unfortunate

01:02:04.100 because they are real people. They have feelings, they have experiences, and their experiences matter.

01:02:10.360 Um, and to be told, you know, to be shut down is really a problem. And I've been so surprised by,

01:02:18.180 um, by how many medical communities have really come on board with this. And I think there are,

01:02:23.620 there are two main things. One is this is promoted as the kind, tolerant thing to do. And believe me,

01:02:32.500 like being kind and being tolerant is awesome. Like this is great. Who wouldn't want to be kind and

01:02:39.380 tolerant? Um, so it's framed that way. Um, but in the same way, is it kind to not do an evaluation

01:02:48.360 and find out why somebody is suffering? So it's framed that way. And the other thing is the science

01:02:53.760 is not settled. There's really been an exaggeration of certainty about the belief in these, um, interventions.

01:03:02.060 So these interventions, they were only tested on kids with early onset, severe gender dysphoria.

01:03:10.840 Like these are the main studies that justify it. And so, and these kids that, that, that actually

01:03:18.300 were included in these trials, they also were psychologically stable. So this is very different

01:03:24.560 than the population who's seeking care now, who didn't have a, many of them didn't have a history.

01:03:29.660 And even some of the main researchers and clinicians from those first studies are saying,

01:03:35.240 you know, the kids without a history and the kids with psychological issues, they weren't part of our

01:03:41.840 studies. We don't know. We don't know if their gender dysphoria is going to be temporary. We don't

01:03:47.500 know if it's going to be long-term. We don't know if these interventions are going to hurt or help them,

01:03:51.220 but there's been this exaggeration of certainty. So when people do the analysis of how strong the

01:03:58.580 evidence is, and when you look at these interventions for teenagers, it is of low and very low quality.

01:04:05.320 This is what happens when you look at the research. However, the discourse is, this is life-saving.

01:04:12.080 This is evidence-based. And so this disconnect is really, I think, a problem. And I think part of it is

01:04:19.820 everybody needs to read past the abstract. People need to read the whole articles from the source

01:04:27.200 and check the references to make sure that the references really support what people are saying.

01:04:33.060 And what's crazy is we're going to go, those numbers you gave at the beginning that we struggle

01:04:37.080 with, 4,500, you know, times 4,500 in the UK and times 1,000 here in the United States,

01:04:43.860 they're going to be higher, higher and higher and higher because now this is according to your

01:04:49.520 detransition study, 71% of the respondents reported that prior to transition, they quote,

01:04:55.000 thought transitioning was my only option to feel better. And that 65% said they thought quote

01:05:01.720 transitioning would eliminate my gender dysphoria. And they detransition when they came to realize

01:05:08.720 that wasn't true. So more and more kids are going to do it because the messaging all around them,

01:05:15.920 at least here in the States, but also in places abroad is, yes, you have this. Yes. Transitioning

01:05:22.660 is the option to solve it. Right, right. And I think what's going on is people are getting just a small

01:05:30.480 sliver of the information that they need to make an informed choice. And so I think we're going to

01:05:37.960 continue to see, so we don't know the numbers of detransitioners. It's very, very hard to find

01:05:42.860 the numbers because one, they don't, uh, you know, very few of them will return to the clinics to say,

01:05:48.800 Hey, I'm unhappy with my care. That's like those two kids didn't want to go back to the same high

01:05:52.640 school and face the other and the, and the people who helped you transition at the clinic, you don't

01:05:57.280 want to go back to them either. I get it. That's why the numbers are off. There's a lot of shame.

01:06:00.340 There's a lot of embarrassment there. You know, they're worried that they're going to be

01:06:03.020 pressured to transition. They think it's not going to help anything. I mean, there are a number of

01:06:06.860 reasons why you wouldn't go back. Um, so the doctors who are doing this are not seeing many

01:06:11.640 of the patients who actually be transitioned. So they think, wow, everything's going great,

01:06:15.280 you know, where they should be looking in their loss to follow up, you know, people that just don't

01:06:19.780 come back. Um, you know, another reason that it's hard to track this down, um, you know, is that many

01:06:27.200 of them don't continue to identify as trans. So in my, in my study, 61% returned to identifying with

01:06:34.540 their, their birth sex, um, 8% continue to identify as trans and 14, um, identified as non-binary.

01:06:41.460 So a lot of the studies that are saying that they're looking for detransitioners are actually

01:06:46.580 looking just in trans communities. And so there's another paper that, that came out right before mine.

01:06:52.740 Um, and the detransitioners in that study talked about how once they said they were detransitioning,

01:06:58.700 they were generally ostracized from LGBT communities. So, so really like you really have to look where

01:07:04.820 you expect to see them. Um, and I think, so we've got a lot going on culturally, these message, like

01:07:11.720 this is the only thing that can help you, but we also have, as you mentioned, this really dramatic

01:07:17.440 change in, um, approaches from approaches that relied on thorough evaluations. And let's say used

01:07:26.720 judicious medical and surgical interventions to approaches with minimized or eliminated evaluation

01:07:33.980 and very liberal use of medical and surgical transition. And so that shift, as well as this

01:07:41.880 cultural shift, um, we may wind up this, this, this could be an unintended consequence of all of those

01:07:48.400 changes. Think about this in a, in a world in which the data show between 61% and 98% of those who

01:07:56.580 say they have gender dysphoria will get past it, past it. If just left alone, that the vast, vast

01:08:03.400 majority of boys and girls saying that they think they have gender dysphoria, they think they're trans

01:08:08.640 will grow out of it. If left alone, how do we have an entire medical community that has settled on a

01:08:15.980 firm, a firm, a firm, a firm, and remove parents from the equation, which is happening more and more

01:08:21.420 for kids as young as 12, 13, 14. Let me squeeze in a quick break. That's where we'll pick it up because

01:08:25.980 there was a shocking article out about, uh, kids as young as 14 in Germany. There was a bill that

01:08:31.220 was proposed to remove parents from that equation, and it's already happened in several countries

01:08:35.260 overseas. We're going to talk more with Dr. Lippman about that.

01:08:43.280 So Lisa, uh, as you know, 60 Minutes did an in-depth report on detransitioners, something that you just

01:08:48.820 released your report on, uh, released your report on, uh, as a scientist, and they had testimonials that

01:08:53.340 were disturbing, no question. Um, and one young woman in particular, uh, from, her name is Grace

01:08:59.600 Ledinski-Smith, who talked about, um, how in her early twenties, she was depressed and, and so on, and

01:09:07.900 searched the internet for answers, and, um, saw people being so happy and excited about transitioning to the

01:09:14.840 other gender that she decided to go for it. And then she said that in the course of one year,

01:09:20.480 one year, she both transitioned, including surgery and detransitioned. Uh, here's a little bit of

01:09:27.400 Grace on 60. In her early twenties, Grace Ledinski-Smith was seriously depressed and developed gender

01:09:34.500 dysphoria. She began searching for answers in transgender communities on the internet.

01:09:40.640 And when I saw them being so happy and excited about doing this wonderful transformative process

01:09:46.700 to really like become their true selves, it was like, have I considered that this could be my

01:09:52.000 situation too? Grace says she found a gender therapist on the internet and told her, I'm thinking

01:09:58.840 of transitioning. Because she was over 18 and didn't need parental consent, she says she merely signed

01:10:06.000 an informed consent form at a clinic and got hormone shots. Just four months after she started

01:10:12.360 testosterone, she says she was approved for a mastectomy, what's called top surgery, that she

01:10:18.780 told us was traumatic. I started to have a really disturbing sense that like a part of my body was

01:10:25.320 missing, almost a ghost limb feeling about being like, there's something that should be there. And

01:10:30.840 the feeling really surprised me, but it was really hard to deny. And so she detransitioned

01:10:37.200 by going off testosterone. Later in the same report, they featured a young man named Garrett

01:10:43.540 from Baton Rouge who said he went from taking hormones to getting his testicles removed in the

01:10:49.900 course of three months. He then got a breast augmentation and said, instead of feeling more

01:10:55.900 like himself as the promises are made online, you're going to feel like yourself. Once you do

01:11:00.680 all this, he felt worse. And it's not uncommon at all for these young people who transition to feel

01:11:09.020 worse once they transition and indeed, to feel suicidal. I, you know, I think it's heartbreaking

01:11:15.660 that some, some of these young people didn't get the, you know, the evaluation, the support,

01:11:23.140 the kind of, you know, mental health services that they needed and instead were really rushed to

01:11:30.340 medical transition and surgery. And as, as you mentioned, mastectomy and testicle removal,

01:11:37.540 like that's permanent. You really can't change that. And I think it was really brave for 60 minutes

01:11:45.700 to do that because they got a lot of pushback. And so I think there's a harm in doing just this

01:11:51.580 one-sided perspective that everybody is helped and no one is harmed because I know people who have

01:12:00.640 been helped by transition and I know people have been harmed by transition. And these are both very,

01:12:06.580 you know, it's important to understand the full range. And I believe that the doctors who are very

01:12:12.360 gung-ho, I mean, to push for a mastectomy in three months or a testicle removal in three months,

01:12:20.280 they really believe that that is the answer. And that's what, what's going to help people.

01:12:24.880 I have talked to doctors who are very pro-transition and, um, you know, I'm all, I've,

01:12:30.120 I've been in a situation where I was the one in the room saying, um, but wait a second, but what if

01:12:34.980 it's something else, but, but wait a second, what if the parents are right? And this is not in their

01:12:39.480 child's best interest. And I was, um, you know, I got the side eye, like this was not a welcome,

01:12:44.960 a welcome thing. But, you know, I think the reason they do it is that they are convinced

01:12:49.580 that this is what people need and this is what's going to help them. And there's a real, um, you

01:12:55.080 know, maybe, uh, maybe there, there seems to be a lot of effort in not hearing the stories that would

01:13:02.760 challenge what, that some people are hurt. So I saw, I listened to your interview on Savage

01:13:08.360 Minds, which was terrific. And one of the girls that you discussed had said,

01:13:14.280 um, she, she decided to transition and then de-transition. And she realized that she was

01:13:22.920 never transgender. She just had, um, I think she had seen her mother sexually assaulted or raped

01:13:30.060 and had convinced herself that if she were a man, she could either prevent it or she could,

01:13:36.400 it wouldn't happen to her. I mean, it was a great example to me of, of how trauma,

01:13:40.740 it gives your brain a reset that it doesn't need. It pushes it in the wrong direction about what the

01:13:46.120 solution is. Right. So that was a clinical case that was written about, um, in the literature.

01:13:51.700 And I think it, it really goes right back to the, you know, this model of there are many causes for

01:13:59.020 this distress and there are many treatments. And so the psychologist that took care of this young

01:14:04.360 child, she, I believe had witnessed her mother being murdered. And she developed a sense that

01:14:11.360 if she had been a boy, she could have protected her and could have prevented it. And so I think this is,

01:14:17.620 this is heartbreaking. And if you don't ask, if you just say, Oh, you're right. You know,

01:14:23.280 you really are a boy. You're going to miss like a lot of diagnosis. You're going to have

01:14:29.020 missed diagnosis. You're going to have delayed diagnosis and you're going to give people the

01:14:33.480 wrong treatment. And I think, you know, that's where we need to get back to basics, you know?

01:14:39.400 So, so two things on that. And one, it reminds me of the discussion we kicked it off with,

01:14:43.180 with about the two-year-old, you know, who knows, maybe, maybe there was trauma in the first two

01:14:49.560 years that pushes a child, you know, as young as that to start thinking about this, even if it's not

01:14:55.200 conscious, maybe, you know, as opposed to being a biological thing, you know, that you're born with,

01:15:00.400 who knows? The point is we don't, we don't know the answers to these things. But the other thing

01:15:06.000 I was going to say is, oh gosh, I can't remember the second thread. Oh, oh, I know. Yes. Because

01:15:11.460 it, you wrote about how the, most of these kids, not only did they not get alternatives when they went

01:15:17.780 to seek medical care or counseling or whatever, but the vast majority of, of detransitioners you spoke

01:15:22.980 with said, they felt, um, that they were underserved by the doctors they spoke with,

01:15:29.180 that the, the downsides of this were not adequately discussed and the positives of this

01:15:34.320 were grossly overstated. Right. And so, so one thing to remember is my study is a convenient sample.

01:15:40.380 So it's not a representative of all people who detransition. There has not ever been a study

01:15:46.240 that's nationally, you know, a representative study, but in terms of talking about the people in this

01:15:52.540 study, that more than half felt that the evaluation they got was not adequate before they transitioned.

01:16:00.640 Um, uh, more than half of them felt that their clinician didn't really explore whether there

01:16:08.120 could be something else like a mental health condition or trauma that was why they wanted

01:16:11.840 to transition. And, and I asked people, and again, I get accused of being just one-sided.

01:16:17.680 I gave options so that people could say, yes, it was accurate or no, it wasn't, you know, in terms

01:16:23.800 of the counseling they got. So there were options of the counseling was accurate. Um, my doctor was

01:16:30.960 not positive enough about the benefits or was too positive about the benefits or not negative enough

01:16:37.880 about the risks or too negative about the risks. So people really did get the range of responses that

01:16:44.360 they could pick. So it wasn't just, here's what I'm thinking it is. I really want it to be brought

01:16:50.180 in. Actually, um, in creating the survey, I worked with 2d transitioners. So we really worked to make

01:16:55.500 sure that the questions really encompass the wide variety of experiences. And so regarding the counseling

01:17:02.340 is, um, about a quarter felt that it was accurate, but maybe a little less than half felt that it was

01:17:10.120 too positive about the benefits. Um, so that's something that deserves investigation. We need to

01:17:17.640 see whether or not, um, people are getting accurate. I mean, could it be that these people had a negative

01:17:22.220 experience with detransition? So they might remember it, you know, differently. Sure. But we need to look

01:17:28.140 into it. The other thing is that some of these people said that they felt pressured by their doctors

01:17:33.240 to transition. And so that's, so I'd like to, yeah, I'd like to give you a couple of, a couple

01:17:38.980 of quotes because, you know, they said it in their own words that, um, where did I put that? Um,

01:17:47.000 that, you know, you look, you look for it, you look for it. And I just want to squeeze this one

01:17:50.220 stat in from your study. 58% said they believe their dysphoria, their gender dysphoria was caused by

01:17:58.020 trauma. 58% believe it was caused by a trauma or a mental health condition, um, previous, not by,

01:18:04.980 you know, I genuinely am gender dysphoric. And these people are getting surgeries, surgeries now

01:18:11.420 based on the, the medical community's desire to be woke, to be affirming without questioning and so

01:18:17.640 on. Go ahead with your stats or your quotes. Okay. I'm going to give you the quotes, but I do want to

01:18:21.080 say about woke. So I think the idea of woke is a good idea, like to be aware of injustice and to really,

01:18:27.560 um, to really look at the possibilities of people being treated unfairly. But I think that in practice,

01:18:34.380 it's gotten very rigid and very narrow. And I think that's the, that's the problem. But here

01:18:39.540 are the quotes from people who said, um, who said that they felt pressured, um, quote, my gender

01:18:46.000 therapist acted like it transition was a panacea for everything. My doctor pushed drugs and surgery at

01:18:53.060 every visit. So this was people who really did feel pressured by their doctors. Um, again,

01:18:58.920 we don't know how many, but I mean, I think those are strong words. And, and in the meantime,

01:19:04.800 um, there was an article recently by two German professors who were taking a look at what's

01:19:11.560 happening in Europe. In Germany, there was a bill that was just submitted. It did not pass,

01:19:17.020 but it would have let children as young as 14, be able to decide for themselves, whether to take

01:19:22.580 hormones and undergo surgery age 14. You could bypass your parents altogether. You would just

01:19:33.260 need a green light from the courts, which are not as discerning as we would like, because we've got

01:19:38.860 all these doctors who are like, go for it, go for it, go for it. So that was rejected in Germany,

01:19:42.900 but they write that other European countries have already passed similar legislation, including

01:19:48.020 Malta, Ireland, Norway, and Spain. So we're, we're putting these decisions in the hands of kids

01:19:55.220 who we won't even let buy a cigarette, buy a glass of wine, or in this case drive. We recognize their

01:20:03.180 brains are not fully developed enough to get behind the wheel of a car. Nevermind start cutting off their

01:20:07.320 body parts. Right. And so I think the people who are in this really feel that gender is an exception

01:20:12.740 to everything. So what we know about teenagers, teenagers go through phases. It's part of their

01:20:18.420 job. They're trying to figure out who they are. And they don't necessarily know what they're going

01:20:26.060 to want in the longterm. And so there's this approach, this, this whole, the affirmative approach

01:20:33.020 pro transition rests on a couple of assumptions. And one of which is teenagers are always right.

01:20:39.340 And what they want in the short term is going to be what they want. You know, what is best for their

01:20:44.800 health and will be in the longterm. And so I think if you're resting on a teenager is always right.

01:20:50.560 And a parent is always wrong. If there's disagreement, I think you're on pretty shaky

01:20:55.160 ground. And that doesn't mean don't listen to teenagers and don't listen to parents. Like I think

01:21:00.400 this is a, you know, this is a big deal. Surgery is a big deal. Hormones with, with permanent

01:21:07.580 consequences are a big deal. And we should be getting information from a variety of sources

01:21:13.020 to figure out whether this is the best thing. Is this going to help this person or is it going

01:21:18.320 to harm them? Because we've seen both. And, um, you know, and I, we can't forget teenagers or

01:21:25.580 teenagers. Yeah. Did they talk to you at all about what they would do if they had a child who,

01:21:31.880 you know, said, Oh, suddenly, you know, suddenly, um, Oh, I think I'm trans.

01:21:36.840 Right. So I did try to explore that in my, in my survey. And I didn't really analyze it because I

01:21:43.300 think a lot of the D transitioners were young adults who weren't parents. I mean, I, I, you know,

01:21:51.440 in retrospect, I, you know, I was looking for some information, but I, you know, and maybe this

01:21:57.000 should be explored further. I did hear from, from D transitioners who do wish that people had asked

01:22:02.600 questions and had asked why they felt this way. And like, maybe somebody should have asked me whether

01:22:08.460 this was my discomfort about being a lesbian and not being able to accept myself. So there,

01:22:15.020 there were my, my awkwardness with my teenage pubescent body, which we all go through only

01:22:21.040 in today's day and age, are they telling you that might be gender dysphoria as opposed to that's your

01:22:25.920 humanity. Right. I think we should be addressing, um, you know, puberty a little different. Like,

01:22:31.940 so I really think we should be having a lot of conversations with our kids when they're young

01:22:35.840 and when they really care what we think. Um, I think that's a great time to talk about this and

01:22:41.400 give them a heads up about adolescence before it hits them, you know, to say, look, people feel

01:22:46.680 uncomfortable, but most people feel uncomfortable. And what's really weird about adolescence is you

01:22:52.940 might think you're the only one that feels that uncomfortable, but that's not true. And, you know,

01:22:57.780 and normalize it like everyone, you know, who's older than you, your grandparents, your aunts and

01:23:02.360 uncles, they've been through adolescence, all of your little cousins, you know, they haven't been

01:23:07.120 through adolescence, but this is a life stage that people go through. You know, people are often

01:23:11.880 uncomfortable. They have a lot of feelings, um, you know, and they're growing and they're changing.

01:23:16.860 And sometimes they might be, you know, disagreeing with their parents and things like that. And this

01:23:21.920 is part of this growth process. And just to kind of give them a heads up so that it's not so that

01:23:27.320 they're not susceptible to somebody saying, Oh, you don't like how your body's changing.

01:23:32.480 That means you're trans. Right. Right. When you start to grow breasts, they don't look good and

01:23:39.500 you're not used to having them. And it's like, what the hell's going on down there? That doesn't

01:23:42.840 mean you're trans. It's like your body's changing. And at the same time, you're getting acne and you're

01:23:47.600 gaining weight and you're already on an awkward phase where you want to belong. And you probably

01:23:51.320 don't feel like you do. And parents need to be really explicit in today's day and age about how

01:23:55.920 we all went through that. That's life. That's childhood, teenage, adolescence, all of it. And

01:24:02.200 always, you know, it's yeah, go on. Yeah. Well, let me ask you this. So I see the medical community

01:24:06.460 as a massive problem in all of this. The media, of course, social media, huge. Um, the trans

01:24:12.440 activists who are pro transition, deeply problematic because they run around calling everybody a bigot

01:24:16.760 and that silences people. The 60 minutes people had a quote from a doctor in there saying,

01:24:22.080 I'm very scared to speak up. So is everyone. We're afraid of not being seen as affirming

01:24:26.900 or being seen as bigoted and so on. So what would you say, like, who are the most important people

01:24:32.940 we need to start being pro all points of view studies, questions, in-depth probing before we

01:24:43.940 just knee jerk surgery hormones? Who do we most need to get on the side of reason?

01:24:48.540 Um, I think we need a lot of people on this, on the side of reason. Um, you know, and again,

01:24:54.800 transphobia, like it's a real problem. There are people who have ill will towards trans people and

01:25:00.260 there is discrimination, but there's a problem when you start calling everything transphobia,

01:25:06.420 if it's even asking questions about underlying conditions or doing, doing a thorough evaluation.

01:25:14.140 Um, and when you start calling, asking questions or understanding different types of gender

01:25:19.920 dysphoria and looking at all the outcomes, transphobia, one, you completely weaken the word.

01:25:24.980 And I think we need that word to, to be, um, specific to what transphobia is, which is,

01:25:30.760 which is harmful and discrimination, but it also shuts down this conversation that we should be having

01:25:36.320 to help solve problems. And so we need clinicians speaking up. We need, um, we need clinicians who

01:25:44.580 are in the field speaking up. We need researchers speaking up. We need de-transitioners speaking up

01:25:49.680 and we need trans people and LGB people speaking up. And actually they have started. There are,

01:25:55.340 you know, it's hard to call people who are trans transphobic. And so this, this, unfortunately this

01:26:02.040 happens. So there's a group of trans individuals that started an organization, um, called gender

01:26:07.140 dysphoria Alliance, you know, created and run by trans people who are saying that we need to know

01:26:14.580 about the different kinds of gender dysphoria, because this helps us understand ourselves. We need

01:26:19.380 to acknowledge biological sex. We need to, um, use evidence. We need to be aware of de-transitioners

01:26:26.540 and support them. And so this is coming from individuals who are trans and it's, it's just

01:26:33.440 boggles my mind that they're being called transphobic. So there are trans people who are organizing

01:26:37.820 and there are lesbian, gay and bisexual people organizing and saying, Hey, this whole practice

01:26:44.000 of, you know, calling everything, you know, pro, you know, transitioning everybody, this is hurting

01:26:48.760 our youth. Like this is a lot of people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual felt very gender dysphoric

01:26:55.380 as kids or gender stereotype, non-conforming. So they feel that these youth are being sort of pushed

01:27:01.600 down a path that really isn't right for them. That's being medicalized. And they, you know, so,

01:27:06.920 so yeah. So I think the LGBT population, great. If the, you know, the people who are standing up and

01:27:12.780 more of that, um, and de-transitions, I think it's, it's unfortunate that if you say it, you're going

01:27:17.820 to get attacked. So, I mean, that's, that's America, you know, you get used to it, but I like what you

01:27:22.420 said, uh, it weakens the word and we need that word. I like that. I'm going to use that again

01:27:26.140 in the future. Um, I do want to ask you, I'm going to bring in callers and I love that you're

01:27:30.200 willing to stay and take some calls because our phone or lines are lighting up. Um, but can I just

01:27:34.900 ask you quickly, and I know you don't really want to get into this, but I've got to just ask you,

01:27:38.300 did they push you out of Brown? Do you think, do you feel like your relationship with them ended

01:27:42.360 because of all of this?

01:27:43.580 I think it's really complicated. Um, and definitely the decision not to remain at Brown

01:27:51.320 was Brown's decision and not my decision. Um, but it's really, it's really, um, yeah. So it's kind

01:27:58.360 of, it's hard to talk about. I do have a consulting job that I lost over this and that is much more

01:28:03.640 clear cut because people submitted the paperwork to renew my contract. Um, pro-transition activists

01:28:10.820 wrote a letter saying, you need to fire her, even though my work there had nothing to do

01:28:15.620 with gender dysphoria. Um, and then the leadership decided not to renew my contract. So, um, so that

01:28:22.620 is, I mean, you know, an unfortunate, very clear line of what happened. Um, you know, as opposed

01:28:29.260 to things, things at Brown were, were brought and I, you know, being unwelcome in certain, you

01:28:34.600 know, contexts. So, yeah.

01:28:37.460 Their loss.

01:28:40.820 I'm going to try to get some callers in now, starting with Heather in Florida. Heather,

01:28:46.000 what's your question?

01:28:47.000 Um, first of all, I just wanted to say, Dr. Lippman, you, um, have given me such a beacon

01:28:51.960 of light, um, because my daughter's been dealing with this for the past two years. I'm sorry,

01:28:56.220 I'm emotional. And I've always been made to feel like I'm the enemy of it because I question

01:29:00.800 them wanting to push giving testosterone and pushing, uh, transitioning. And I just was wondering,

01:29:06.580 is there any, um, any place that you could send me? I know that I was trying to listen

01:29:11.160 online, but any place that you could send me to get more information about how as a parent,

01:29:15.460 um, I, I can have a voice in, in my own child's medical procedures or not procedures that would

01:29:22.800 take place because it kind of feels kind of hopeless as a parent watching it happen. Sorry.

01:29:27.600 Yeah. Yeah. So I understand how hard this is because I mean, parents love their kids and they

01:29:32.180 want what's best and to be made to feel like, you know, these very normal things of parenting,

01:29:37.700 like protecting them is now demonized. Um, so there are some resources. Um, there's a great

01:29:45.020 podcast called gender, a wider lens, um, that is, um, by Sasha Yad and Stella O'Malley. And though,

01:29:52.140 so they take a deep look at this topic. And if you look at, um, Sasha, Sasha's website and videos,

01:29:59.140 she really, um, gives some really, um, great educational materials. And then there are,

01:30:07.160 there are some support, uh, networks. I hear from parents all the time. Parents email me. Um,

01:30:12.840 so if you want to send me a message through my, through my website, um, you know, I try to connect

01:30:18.300 parents with, with some resources, um, depending on what they're looking for.

01:30:23.640 Heather, have you, have you read Abigail Schreier's book?

01:30:27.060 I have not. No, you got to read her book because Dr. Lipman is not really as much about the

01:30:32.180 prescription, but Abigail is, and she's got action points at the back of that book that a parent can

01:30:37.260 do. If their child starts going through this, I'll get them. I mean, just a couple off the top of my

01:30:41.580 head, like get them off the internet, take them out of town, go, go to a new town. The two of you on a,

01:30:46.620 the three of you or the two of you are taking a three month vacation together and get her away from

01:30:51.780 people who are influencing her. If you don't think this is real for her. And Abigail's much more

01:30:55.280 articulate and helpful, um, on it, but I can hear how stressful this has been for you.

01:31:01.540 It just breaks your heart because, you know, for me, I, I, I have no problem with, with her identity

01:31:08.860 and, and her, what she's walking through, but it makes me so angry to see a medical community,

01:31:15.420 not really care to get to know if there is, you know, um, a mental health issue, which even my

01:31:21.760 daughter herself said, and it was always pushed from the very beginning. The only answer is to

01:31:27.280 affirm it. And let's, let's start talking about, you know, giving you testosterone and talk about

01:31:32.300 surgery. And it's, it's heartbreaking, you know, is there a medical group, Dr. Lippman? Like,

01:31:37.140 is there a, is there a medical group that talks sense as opposed to one of these doctors that's

01:31:41.400 just going to say, yes, yes, yes. Um, yeah. So there are, there are a couple, a couple of places

01:31:46.940 of, of, of people who are starting to, to raise questions. There's an organization called the

01:31:51.680 Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine. So S-E-G-M. Um, and so this organization is very

01:31:59.880 concerned about, is the evidence base high enough to justify these, um, specific, um, interventions?

01:32:07.960 So, so that is a good place. I mean, that's not a place for referrals, like to find,

01:32:13.020 to find clinicians. I mean, it's really, it's, it's really hard. I, you know, I would recommend,

01:32:17.920 um, inspired teen therapy website. Um, it's crazy. You know, I'm not really sure. It's very,

01:32:25.040 but even the fact that you're searching for it, that just underscores our whole discussion today.

01:32:30.480 Beautifully. Lisa Lippman, you're a brave woman. Uh, I think I speak on behalf of my viewers and I say

01:32:34.940 we're grateful to have you, Heather. So much love to you. Thank you both. Uh, and Dr. Lippman will

01:32:39.240 continue to follow everything that you write tomorrow. Don't miss the show. John McWhorter,

01:32:43.400 the brilliant John McWhorter is here. Check us out at youtube.com slash Megan Kelly to watch the show.

01:32:49.580 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:33:05.320 Bye.

01:33:11.240 Yeah.

01:33:11.400 Bye.

01:33:14.400 Bye.

01:33:14.900 Bye.

The Megyn Kelly Show - October 25, 2021

Dr. Lisa Littman on Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, the Teen Trans Trend, and Intellectual Rigor ｜ Ep. 188

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