Chris Christie and James Carville join host Meghan Kelly to discuss the lessons they learned from the 2020 election and predicted outcomes. They also discuss the impact of down-ballot races on the outcome of the presidential election and what it means for the future of the Democratic Party.
00:01:36.780And now, Governor Chris Christie, formerly Governor of the State of New Jersey.
00:01:47.180Governor Chris Christie, thank you so much for being here.
00:01:50.140My pleasure, Megan. Great to be with you.
00:01:51.940All right. So, on the show, we want to give it to the listeners straight.
00:01:55.420What is Trump doing? Does he have a realistic chance of prevailing on an overall effort to reverse this vote?
00:02:02.700No, Megan, I don't – I always approach this as a former prosecutor as opposed to a former governor because I want to deal with the facts.
00:02:10.900And that's what we got to do exclusively when we were in prosecuting.
00:02:15.440I said this on the Wednesday morning after the election, after the president's first speech at about 2.30 in the morning.
00:02:23.020You can't stand up there and say there's been fraud, the election's being stolen, and I would have won easily but for it unless you produce evidence.
00:02:32.700And we're now sitting here, you know, 16 days after the election, and I still haven't seen any evidence.
00:02:40.060Now, are there irregularities in elections? There are always irregularities in elections.
00:02:44.860The question is, were there irregularities or intentional acts that would have changed the course of the result?
00:02:53.180I haven't seen that, and I think it's, you know, getting very, very late to present something like that.
00:02:59.480So, you know, the strategy here from the president's perspective, I couldn't explain it to you because in the end, if he was concerned about this beforehand, which he said he was, he should have had a much better legal strategy in place in the weeks before the election to be able to detect anything that was going sideways.
00:03:17.780He didn't. And whenever you try to piece this kind of stuff together afterwards, you know, you're not going to succeed.
00:03:24.040And so, you know, I think that, you know, if he doesn't have any evidence, which it doesn't appear he does, that would change the results in at least three states, then it's time to move on.
00:03:35.300So I, like you, have tried to look at the evidence. And one thing we both know from having been in courtrooms is the judge, the courts in these cases are going to see a lot more than you and I are going to see over here.
00:03:45.840They get to read all the briefs, get to. They have to read all the briefs, see all the evidence, the affidavits that have been presented.
00:03:51.980And I will trust what the courts tell us in terms of outcome. But just looking at the overall landscape, he's losing most of these challenges in Pennsylvania.
00:04:01.940He filed eight lawsuits. Only three are still pending. The strongest one is the one that went up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court said, get back to us if this remains an issue, which is was the state Supreme Court allowed to postpone the deadline for submitting your vote by allowing you to just postmark your vote as of Election Day.
00:04:20.280That's the strongest. But we don't even know if those if that category of votes, which is sitting in a separate pile, has been included in Biden's eighty one thousand vote perceived victory right now.
00:04:33.000So, you know, Biden may be able to win Pennsylvania without any of those votes because, you know, they may not even be in the pile at this point and there aren't enough to to swing it the other way.
00:04:44.300And then in Michigan, he filed two lawsuits. Only one is left standing. And that's basically just about challengers not being allowed to observe the voting process.
00:04:53.540The filings are due this week. It doesn't look that strong to me. Georgia, one lawsuit filed. It was dismissed. There is a recount underway.
00:05:00.660Arizona, he filed three. He dropped two. There's one pending. It's very lame. That one is talking about how counties can't hand count ballots at vote centers as opposed to vote precincts.
00:05:10.300In response to which the AG there is basically saying there's just there's no legal basis for that whatsoever. Nevada, he filed two. One was upheld. It's pending about the polls being kept open late.
00:05:20.940My bottom line on this is if he prevails on all of these, maybe you're talking about a handful of votes, but the margins Biden is leading by in each of these states, they're big.
00:05:33.920You know, I'll just run through it and then I'll get your thoughts. But Pennsylvania, it's Biden by 81,000. Michigan, Biden by 146,000. Nevada, Biden by 33,000. Wisconsin, Biden by 20,000.
00:05:48.580Gets tighter in Georgia and Arizona, where it's Biden by 13.9 thousand. Arizona's 10,000.
00:05:53.520We're going to have two recounts in two of those states, Georgia and Wisconsin. But to me, it feels like a Hail Mary.
00:06:01.960I don't know. Is there any chance those collectively and I'm going to get to this massive allegation of the computers are corrupt, but could those collectively get him over the line?
00:06:13.800Doesn't sound like it. I mean, you know, again, you know, courts are going to be very reluctant to overturn a vote count in those numbers without there being real solid evidence of irregularities or intentional misconduct that would have affected a larger number of votes than that.
00:06:36.580Because remember, that's the margin. You can't assume that every one of those votes that disqualified would be a Biden vote.
00:06:42.600So it seems highly unlikely. And I think, you know, calling it a Hail Mary is is probably a right way to characterize it, Megan.
00:06:51.380And I and what I'd also say is that when you look at the Pennsylvania lawsuit, I do think there's concerns about what the Pennsylvania Supreme Court did.
00:07:01.080But like you said, we have no idea whether those votes are included in the eighty one thousand vote margin, how many of those votes there are and, you know, what percentage of that vote Donald Trump got, which you have to assume he got some percentage of it.
00:07:16.780So, you know, again, I just think that there's it's it's a very, very long shot.
00:07:22.220But to me, the more damaging part of it is it's is to make the charge before you have the evidence.
00:07:29.400Right. So that would be like me going into a grand jury as the U.S. attorney and handing out an indictment and saying to the grand jury, I'd like you to vote this indictment out.
00:07:39.360And the grand jury form says, but wait a second, we haven't heard the evidence yet.
00:07:42.200I go, don't worry, I have the evidence. I'll give it to you later.
00:07:44.360That's what this is like. And that's what bothers me the most.
00:07:48.000Does the president have an absolute right to pursue these legal remedies?
00:07:51.260Yes. Does he have an absolute right to pursue recounts, especially in states that are close, like Georgia and Arizona, I'd say, are the two that are closest.
00:07:59.120I know he's pursuing one in Wisconsin, but that's the number of votes he won by four years ago in Wisconsin.
00:08:04.580And, you know, I've spoken to people like Scott Walker and others who I trust in their judgment of close Wisconsin elections.
00:08:11.220And they've said, you know, that there's no way that a recount would overturn that large a margin.
00:08:18.000That's the thing. Recounts usually get votes that are close by like a thousand, a couple hundred, but not not huge like this, like a thirty three thousand vote victory.
00:08:30.320I don't I don't think one's ever been reversed on a recount or because of a voter fraud charge.
00:08:36.100No. And listen, there's lots of people who who compare this to Bush versus Gore.
00:08:41.300And all I'd say to that is let's remember that Bush versus Gore was one state only that that state,
00:08:48.940when the voting was first stopped counting was nine hundred votes in the entire state of Florida was the margin when the recounts stopped.
00:08:58.640It was five hundred and thirty seven votes.
00:09:01.500So and there were no allegations, really serious allegations of fraud in that in that election.
00:09:07.780And it really was a question of the standard by which you decide what is a vote and how they're counted.
00:09:15.640Oh, you're bringing back like bad memories about hanging chads and do they count?
00:09:19.900What do they mean? And that was like, yeah, the pregnant chat.
00:09:23.580Right. When you punch the little thing, but it doesn't go all the way through and a little the vote tally looks pregnant.
00:09:28.460But it's much different than alleging fraud, which is an intentional theft of an election.
00:09:34.980So, yes, Al Gore got thirty seven days to fight that.
00:09:38.380That's why I've said the president has a right to fight whatever he wants to fight.
00:09:42.420The the to me, the bigger problem is coming to a conclusion before you conduct the investigation.
00:09:48.960So you say it's a fraud. Now I'm going to investigate to see if it is.
00:09:52.580Well, and when it comes to voter fraud, unlike what the Democrats say, you are always going to find a little.
00:09:59.680There is some voter fraud going on in this country.
00:10:02.260The problem is the question is whether it's massive, whether it's large enough and you can prove it to reverse margins that huge.
00:10:10.780Listen, I had a predecessor governor of mine named Brendan Byrne, a Democrat, two term Democrat, was very funny guy.
00:10:18.480And he he since passed away. But he used to say when he was alive that he made his wife promise that she would bury him in Hudson County, New Jersey, so that he could remain active in politics.
00:10:31.740You know, the there's no doubt that in places like Philadelphia and in New Jersey, historically, Illinois, historically, that there have been examples.
00:10:41.140I put people in jail for when I was U.S. attorney for voter fraud in New Jersey.
00:10:45.420It happens. But that's not the question here.
00:10:49.280The question is, did it happen, as you said, on such a scale that we'd be able to reverse the kind of margins that we're talking about?
00:10:55.700And and I've said right from Wednesday morning after his two thirty a.m. speech, show me.
00:11:01.380And if you have the evidence, I will fight with you to make sure that the election is a fair and honest one.
00:11:08.880But if you don't have the evidence, you should not expect people to just blindly follow you and your allegations.
00:11:16.160All right. But let's let's talk about let's talk about Michigan, though, because there was some funny business going on there.
00:11:21.800And that's a 20 electoral vote state. If Trump could get that one reversed, it'd be huge.
00:11:25.920However, he's losing by the most in Michigan. That's the toughest challenge with one hundred and forty six thousand vote lead for Biden.
00:11:34.840But I do want to get into the news of the day there, because this is the first time I really perked up and said that now I'm interested.
00:11:42.580Now you got me not paying attention because the Republican canvas board members there for it was basically the county in which Detroit is.
00:11:52.140And they said they were bullied last night. They did vote to certify the vote.
00:11:59.160And but then they almost immediately reversed themselves and said, I regret it.
00:12:04.520Their names are Monica Palmer and William Hartman saying I was bullied into doing it.
00:12:09.420I do not believe we should have certified this. There are too many irregularities in in Detroit to justify accepting these election results.
00:12:17.800And the only reason I said yes at the last minute is because I was promised that there would be an audit, which already the Democrats are saying they're not going to do.
00:12:25.660And I was threatened. These two. It got crazy, crazy.
00:12:29.680Like people were showing up from the county, openly threatening these two if they didn't certify the vote, charging them with racism.
00:12:38.700And we have just one example. There's this is a guy named Ned Stabler, who's a well-known Detroit entrepreneur who got up there and shamed those two like they were about to cast their votes in the big white hats.
00:12:52.020Listen to Ned. You talked about not certifying Detroit, even though you acknowledge that Livonia, a city, by the way, I know, you know, is 95 percent white, had bigger variances than Detroit, which is 80 percent black.
00:13:05.040We understand. And you've now added your name. So I'm not going to try to change your mind.
00:13:09.900I just want to let you know that the Trump stick, the stain of racism that you, William Hartman and Monica Palmer, have just covered yourself in is going to follow you throughout history.
00:13:23.420Your grandchildren are going to think of you like Bull Connor or George Wallace.
00:13:28.720Monica Palmer and William Hartman will forever be known in southeastern Michigan as two racists who did something so unprecedented that they disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of black voters in the city of Detroit because they were ordered to.
00:13:48.540Well, and listen, you know, Megan, I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who accept positions as important as those positions who say, I'm going to vote to certify.
00:14:04.480And then as soon as they're done voting to certify, saying I shouldn't have done it.
00:14:08.140Well, then you shouldn't have done it or you shouldn't have taken the jobs in the first place.
00:14:12.000And the problem I have is, OK, if there were serious irregularities in Detroit and that wouldn't shock me, well, then show me.
00:14:21.960If these two folks, the Republicans on the Wayne County canvassing board, think there are serious enough irregularities, let me tell you, I'm sure that the Trump campaign would file a new lawsuit based upon this.
00:14:36.340And these guys could be witnesses one and two.
00:14:39.640Well, that may happen. That may happen because what they're saying is that there are discrepancies in nearly three quarters of Detroit's precinct poll books where ballots are supposed to be matched to qualified voters.
00:14:51.600I don't understand that either. But basically, they're saying that the ballots and the qualified voters, the numbers don't add up.
00:14:58.060There are some sort of discrepancies that they think warrants an audit, at least.
00:15:02.460And I mean, it's nuts. So just do the audit. Who cares? Like, who cares? Do it.
00:15:07.600That's the case. They shouldn't have voted to certify.
00:15:09.960OK, and if you're going to be a public official, you've got to have a certain measure of strength and you're going to have guys like Ned who are going to yell at you all the time.
00:15:17.540From the time I was a county elected official and the eight years I was governor, I held 100 over 150 town hall meetings.
00:15:26.320You remember the magazine? I had people yell at me all the time.
00:15:28.960If they were awesome, get yelled. I had a lot of fun.
00:15:31.780If every time they yelled at you, you caved.
00:15:33.880Well, then you weren't a leader. You're a follower.
00:15:37.100So, listen, if they have real evidence of discrepancies in matching, you know, the ballots to qualified voters, that's a real problem.
00:15:45.780And then they need to present that to a court.
00:15:47.760And I, like you, have confidence in the fact that our courts will not permit those kind of things to happen if there is solid evidence to back it up.
00:16:04.740What I've said is the president needs to show the evidence.
00:16:08.780And if he shows the evidence and there's evidence to it, you can be guaranteed there'll be tens of millions of people in this country who will support him continuing to move on with his legal challenges.
00:16:55.800But what I have been saying is if you want to pursue these legal actions, you have every right to.
00:17:00.720Then you've got to be willing to put evidence forward that will convince not only a court, but the American people that something was really untoward here.
00:17:10.340See, I think the court is actually that's higher on the list of those who need to be convinced than the American people, because Trump supporters will support him.
00:17:19.160I think there was a poll recently saying something like 75 percent of Republicans do believe that there have been shenanigans here and that there may be fraud and may question the result.
00:17:28.140Yes, that's going to be a political problem for whoever, you know, if it's Biden in the next term, but the courts, they get the final say.
00:17:37.840Right. This is this is why we have courts.
00:17:39.940And what's bothering me about this whole thing is.
00:17:43.480The Trump campaign will put out, you know, they'll put out Rudy on like Maria Bartiromo's show.
00:17:50.360And with all due respect to Maria Bartiromo, she never cross examines these guys like I really want to know answers.
00:17:55.500I really I'd love to sit across from one of those lawyers and ask really hard questions.
00:18:01.000And and so you leave not knowing anything other than Rudy's spin.
00:18:05.860But in a courtroom, that doesn't work in a courtroom.
00:18:10.220The court only takes evidence and the lawyer's argument may or may not be relevant to the judge, but the evidence is going to rule the day.
00:18:17.320So they do have to put up or shut up there, which is why we should all be keeping our powder dry until the lawsuits resolve.
00:18:23.760I think we can trust the results of those.
00:18:26.260But the biggest thing they have going, the most important thing I think they would say, is this challenge to Dominion software, which they're saying is like the voting machines used in various of these swing states that they think allegedly, Rudy claims, may have been manipulated by an outside force that votes could have possibly been changed on election night.
00:18:54.820Which they're saying that Dominion and and others, independent observers are saying that's absolutely impossible.
00:19:01.400You could not do that to those machines.
00:19:19.700The courts are going to be the most objective, most informed judges of of what happened here on the Dominion issue.
00:19:29.100Listen, my understanding is those were the same voting systems in the main that were being used four years ago and in many states, not in all states.
00:19:38.840But in the majority of states, I think Dominion voting systems are being used.
00:20:35.540If they've been manipulated by some outside force, who's the outside force?
00:20:39.680How are they manipulated, and where's your evidence?
00:20:42.400I can tell you that I know with these machines that they produce either usually electronic machines where you push buttons and hit a little button.
00:20:50.840It's not like the old big clunky voting machines where they have a dial in the back that counts the votes.
00:20:56.040But then they produce a paper result of the votes that were happening.
00:21:01.600If, in fact, there's some way to have hacked that machine, and I mean thousands of machines to be hacked, and for the votes to have been changed, well, then we need to see the evidence for that.
00:21:16.120And if there is evidence for that, you can believe it will be the biggest election scandal in the history of the country.
00:21:22.920But, again, my point is I'm happy to fight that fight on the side of the president if it's true, but I've got to see the evidence that it is.
00:21:32.300And that's the thing is, like, you've got Republicans like you who you are helping Trump prepare for these debates.
00:21:39.100It's not like you were anti-Trump, who would very much prefer a President Trump second term to a President Biden term, who are saying, let's get real.
00:21:50.860Like, I look around at the Republicans who are, you know, a lot of them are just trying to be loyal to Trump, saying, well, maybe, and we should wait for this whole process to play out.
00:21:58.740But I don't see a lot saying, let me urge you, voters of America, to see the fraud.
00:22:06.220I just see, I sort of see loyalists trying to be kind and somewhat supportive.
00:22:11.160And, you know, you're, you were a loyalist.
00:22:13.360I mean, you're, you know, like I said, you helped prepare the guy.
00:22:41.900And I chaired his opioid commission when he was president.
00:22:45.040Um, you know, and I voted for him in 2016 and in 2020.
00:22:50.920Um, so this is somebody who would prefer Donald Trump to be president, um, to Joe Biden.
00:22:56.460But, you know, our obligation as leaders of our country is to speak the truth, the whole truth.
00:23:05.100And the whole truth here is the president has every, every right to pursue the legal remedies he's pursuing and the recounts he's pursuing.
00:23:15.920But please don't tell us what the result is before the investigation has been conducted.
00:23:22.620And if you, if you know there was fraud, then show us the evidence of the fraud, because Megan, if this were overturned, it would, it would create, that's why I said number two, the American people, because it would create, um, an absolute crazy situation in this country.
00:23:41.080Um, that we're all going to have to deal with, and the only way to deal with that is to make sure the facts are correct.
00:23:46.520Um, and, and the last thing I'd say is on, you know, legitimacy, the legitimacy issue.
00:23:51.860I think both parties better start thinking about this issue, because this really started back in 2000 with Bush versus Gore.
00:23:59.880However, when even after the, the Democrats were able to take it all the way to the United States Supreme Court and they lost, I remember being at George W. Bush's first inaugural and having Democrats there protesting and screaming that he was an illegitimate president.
00:24:13.160And then I remember Donald Trump leading the charge, quite frankly, um, during the Obama administration on this birther issue and saying that somehow he was an illegitimate president.
00:24:22.820And then we had Democrats saying, because Trump had lost the popular vote in 16 and the margins were so thin in the States that he won, that he was not a legitimate president.
00:24:34.380You know, we've got to knock this off.
00:25:21.380Now I know that no, no Republicans ever lost a runoff in Georgia, but this race could be different because it's really under the national spotlight.
00:25:30.900The Democrats are going to use all their money, every money they can get their hands on to support the Democratic candidates.
00:25:36.400And no idea whether it's true or it's not true, but the Washington Post is reporting that, that GOP leaders.
00:25:45.100And I know you are, you are one of them looking at, at the Georgia Senate runoffs are quote, increasingly alarmed about the party's ability to stave off the Democratic challengers in these two elections.
00:25:56.040Do you, do you agree with the Washington Post?
00:26:00.640Um, I, you know, under full disclosure, I'm one of the national co-chairs of the Georgia Battleground Fund, which is helping to raise the money along with Karl Rove and, um, and, uh, you know, uh, Nikki Haley and Haley Barber.
00:26:13.620Um, so people should know that when they're listening, that, um, I have a bias, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.
00:26:19.880Um, I, I, I'm very concerned about the races because of everything you just said.
00:26:24.700There'll be huge national attention on it.
00:26:26.760The, the majority in the Senate is, is at stake.
00:26:29.980Uh, and you don't know what the turnout will look like on January 5th.
00:26:34.980That being said, I feel like we have the two better candidates.
00:26:38.900I think we have the two better arguments.
00:26:40.860Um, and I, and I do believe that both those candidates, both Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue will win on January 5th, but not unless as Republicans, we get, we are united.
00:26:52.500We put our oar deep in the water and everybody's, you know, pulling in the same direction.
00:26:57.060Um, and if we do that, I think we'll win that rate though, both those races.
00:27:00.640Um, but, um, you know, if you don't, and if we allow other things to distract us or divide us, well, then you could have a problem.
00:27:09.240Um, the, um, news just broke that the challenger to Kelly Loeffler, the Republican Senator, uh, his name is Reverend Raphael Warnock.
00:27:20.520He is getting hit for comments he made in 2011 about the military and religion.
00:28:00.700That's a big problem anywhere in America.
00:28:02.640It's particularly a big problem in Georgia.
00:28:04.180Um, and I think that, you know, everybody should take into consideration what type of Senator Reverend Warnock would be if that's what he believes.
00:28:48.620But I do believe that every voter in Georgia should hear those words and be deeply disturbed by those words.
00:28:54.240Because I can tell you that most of the men and women that I've met over my time in public life, uh, who serve in the military, um, also have a deep belief in whatever faith they follow.
00:29:09.020And to say that you cannot do both is ridiculous and insulting, um, to the people who serve our country in the military and risk their lives.
00:29:18.900So I think Reverend Warnock's got a big, big political problem, um, that will make the Kelly Loeffler race, um, potentially, um, a little more decisive.
00:29:30.800He's not running for mayor of Portland.
00:29:32.420It's, it's, it's a, it's a very different kind of race.
00:29:35.960So I don't remember Bill de Blasio's cabinet where that would be perfectly acceptable.
00:29:40.620I have to ask you about Bill de Blasio and governor Cuomo here in New, in New York, because now the New York city schools have shut down yet again, even though all the scientific studies are saying COVID is not being spread in schools.
00:29:54.620And they also say homeschool learning distance learning is very bad for children.
00:30:00.040Um, the, the governor here, you are a governor, a governor of your neighboring state, New York has written a book touting his leadership skills during COVID.
00:30:11.300Meanwhile, the, the, the cases are rising.
00:30:14.400He's arguing with the New York city mayor one day after governor Cuomo moments after governor Cuomo said at a press conference, you're an idiot to a reporter for asking whether in the New York city schools were going to shut.
00:30:40.540Well, listen, mayor de Blasio, in my view is really the cause of all this.
00:30:46.400And it's his incredibly cozy relationship with the teachers union in New York city, which is causing this because as you said, there's no, there's no empirical evidence that COVID is being spread in the schools.
00:31:03.120In fact, quite the opposite has been the empirical evidence I've seen.
00:31:07.180Um, this is him being in bed with the teachers union in New York city.
00:31:12.540This guy has been the worst mayor of New York city of my lifetime.
00:31:17.300Um, he makes me yearn for the days of David Dinkins.
00:31:20.660Um, and I never, I'd have a mayor who would make me yearn for the days of David Dinkins, but David Dinkins was a better mayor than this guy.
00:31:27.680Um, governor Cuomo's in an awful tough spot as governor because, you know, de Blasio really has jurisdiction over this school system.
00:31:36.360So here you have Cuomo saying it's not going to close.
00:31:39.520And do I believe de Blasio closed the schools just to prove Cuomo wrong?
00:31:44.120I don't think he did it for that reason, but I think it was like an extra added benefit to de Blasio.
00:31:49.420You're right that these guys don't like each other.
00:31:53.200Um, and now, you know, de Blasio's actions, not Cuomo's because Cuomo, I think I was all along been someone who has been very reluctant to, to mess with the schools.
00:32:04.560Um, but de Blasio here, this is clearly to me, um, a, a sop to the teachers union.
00:32:11.380And that's what he's doing at the, at the grave, grave cost of lack of education for the, the students in the city.
00:32:27.140Oh, especially people who are in lower socioeconomic classes.
00:32:29.880Those are the kids who get hurt the most.
00:32:32.280The, the cases of abuse in home abuse go up.
00:32:35.800And once again, the teachers union, the reason America first fell in love with Chris Christie, as I was on the air watching all the moments that went viral, was your willingness to take on those teachers unions, which had previously been untouchable.
00:32:47.840And you didn't care, you would fight, you would say all the things that needed to be said.
00:32:51.700And instead, what we, what we see is the truth, which is the teachers unions.
00:32:56.900They, they don't even care about the teachers.
00:32:59.140They really don't care about the kids.
00:33:00.860They care about themselves, the group, the union itself, and its money-making ability.
00:33:06.120But the last thing on their list is kids.
00:33:08.720And man, is that manifesting in New York.
00:33:26.700Because I was actually willing to speak the truth about it.
00:33:29.620Bill de Blasio is a captive of the union movement.
00:33:32.580It is only just through the grace of reinstituted term limits that we will be done with him in another year and two months.
00:33:41.380And when we are in New York city, I'm hopeful that the people will have learned from this awful eight year experiment and, you know, kids need to be in school.
00:33:52.900You know, Megan, these liberals constantly say that who they care about are the least fortunate.
00:33:58.480And in the educational scheme, by denying vouchers, by denying charter schools, by now closing public schools in response to COVID, the people they are damaging the most are those children and their families whose dreams are wrecked because their education can't be moved forward.
00:34:20.640The thing I'm really worried about, about any further significant lockdowns is what you alluded to.
00:34:26.120We are seeing an enormous rise in domestic violence, an alarming rise in drug addiction, and an alarming rise in suicide.
00:34:36.200All of that is the result of the lockdowns and the economic downturn and the loss of jobs and ability to support your family that's been created by these lockdowns.
00:34:48.480And I think every public official better start thinking about when we get to a vaccine, and this is all over, what type of America will be coming back?
00:34:58.000And I will tell you, it's going to be an America that's more drug addicted, more victims of domestic violence.
00:35:05.360And we're going to have a lot of victims of suicide who didn't have to die because lots of public officials played to the grandstand and overreacted here.
00:35:13.840Yeah. And for what, right? For what? It's not spreading. The kids are not spreading it.
00:35:19.020And they just, it's like some teachers, yes, are completely paranoid.
00:35:23.420The ones who are in the high risk groups can stay at home and protect themselves and do it from via Zoom.
00:35:28.240And the others, teachers generally tend to be young, can go in class and be distanced and have masks on.
00:35:34.000Our schools have been doing it. It's been working out beautifully.
00:35:36.680Now we do have, we have a couple of vaccines coming out. Miraculously, we got Pfizer, we've got the two other companies, Moderna.
00:35:45.980You, you famously, sorry, got COVID after some of those Trump debate sessions.
00:35:52.200And can you tell, how long were you in the ICU for?
00:35:57.080Holy cow. So that must have been scary.
00:36:00.060It was. And especially the first three days were very scary.
00:36:03.660And when, listen, the thing about COVID is that this disease is random and brutal, depending upon who gets it.
00:36:16.140And when the symptoms finally hit me, they hit me like a freight train.
00:36:22.940I went from in the morning having a 96.5 degree temperature, no symptoms at all, and great breathing, to six hours later, feeling like I had been run over by a train.
00:36:42.360And ultimately had to be hospitalized.
00:36:44.140And so, now, I have a 20-year-old son who caught COVID at Providence College.
00:36:53.160He quarantined himself for 14 days and never had a symptom.
00:36:58.300That's the randomness of this disease.
00:37:00.660You just don't know who it's going to hit.
00:37:03.040But we do know that if you get a little bit older, if you have asthma, if you're overweight, you know, so I go three for three on that one.
00:37:10.340And, you know, that it affects those people more.
00:37:14.920And so, you know, it was a really scary time, Megan, especially those first three days.
00:37:18.960Because also, what people don't think about is you're also in isolation.
00:37:22.240So, you are by yourself with just your thoughts and you're focusing on every symptom and whether it's getting worse.
00:37:32.060And that, to me, the hardest part of the first three days was monitoring myself and the fear that came along with that.
00:37:41.420And so, you know, listen, I was someone who was very good about wearing my mask.
00:37:46.040For seven months, I wore my mask every time I went outside, every time, you know, I was going into a group of people because I had asthma and I was concerned about getting it.
00:37:56.620And I let my guard down for four days.
00:37:59.680Four days and only let my guard down and only took the mask off when I was inside the gates of the White House.
00:38:06.300Because I was tested every day that I was there.
00:38:08.500And I was led to believe that everybody else was tested.
00:38:13.860And so, I think that what I want people to learn why I gave the interviews I gave afterwards and wrote the op-ed for the Wall Street Journal was to let people know that you're not safe anywhere from this virus.
00:38:24.740And that you should never let your guard down.
00:38:26.920Because the ramifications of it, for me, I'm fortunate, like you said, when we got together this morning, glad you're alive.
00:38:42.260And I'm just thankful to God and to everybody out there who was praying for me.
00:38:47.840I got an amazing number of letters and cards and emails where people were praying for me.
00:38:52.360And I know that the great medical care I got and the power of those prayers combined, you know, have me sitting here talking to you today.
00:38:59.160But notwithstanding what you've been through, you don't sound pro-lockdown, pro-another lockdown.
00:39:06.800Not because I do believe that with the use of masks, with the washing your hands frequently, and with staying out of big crowds, that we can flatten this curve and we can survive till the vaccines get here.
00:39:34.740So we can't think that there's some type of cure-all outside of a vaccine, which, you know, in both the case of Pfizer and Moderna, appear to be 95% effective.
00:39:47.860People should understand how great that is.
00:39:50.280The flu shot is usually generally 50% to 60% effective.
00:39:55.220So you have vaccines here that show 95% effectiveness.
00:39:59.640That's going to mean a lot for this country.
00:40:01.540But until then, I don't believe we should shut down.
00:40:03.880I believe we should continue on with our lives, but taking those common sense steps.
00:40:09.540And most public health people are saying exactly the same thing.
00:40:14.260Well, I mean, whatever people may think of Trump and how he handled COVID, he does deserve huge credit for sparking the race toward a vaccine.
00:40:29.580I mean, miraculously, we got one in record time.
00:40:32.680In fact, we have now a couple companies with one that's 95% effective.
00:40:36.980And I wonder, you know, on the subject of Trump, just to tie the two subjects we've been discussing back together, what does he do now?
00:40:44.900Let's say the legal challenges play out and they don't go in his favor.
00:40:49.780The December 14th is the date by which the Electoral College delegates in each state meet to vote.
00:40:55.840There's a lot of speculation about whether Trump would ever walk out of the White House, quote, a loser, you know, which is uncharitable or, you know, having lost and whether he would ever attend an inauguration peacefully past the baton.
00:41:13.260Well, listen, I think the president will leave on January 20th or before I think any speculation that he would, you know, kind of stay in the White House just is ridiculous.
00:41:23.980That's not who did not not the guy I know.
00:41:26.100So I would say that in terms of whether he'll attend the inauguration, if it's Joe Biden's inauguration, which I assume it will be, I think that if the president feels like he had the opportunity to pursue all of his legal remedies and that he fell short, I would hope that he would go.
00:41:43.620And because I think it's an important part of the American transfer of power and the peaceful transfer of power for people to see that.
00:41:54.260Now, let's remember, Megan, it's not unprecedented that American presidents don't go to their successors, their successors' inauguration.
00:42:02.580John Adams did not go to Thomas Jefferson's because of the bitterness of that campaign and his feelings towards Jefferson at that time.
00:42:11.600John Quincy Adams did not go to Andrew Jackson's inaugural for the very same reason, a very bitter, ugly campaign.
00:42:19.020And Harry Truman did not go to Dwight Eisenhower's inaugural because of the really bitter feelings, even though they didn't run against each other, between Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower.
00:42:29.660So it's very rare, but not unprecedented.
00:42:34.080And so the president's going to have to make a decision about which camp he wants to be in.
00:42:37.740And I think that how he does in these legal challenges, meaning does he believe that he got a fair hearing, may have a role to play in all that.
00:42:49.420I talked about you becoming a national star with those sparring matches.
00:42:55.160And, you know, as we saw in the debate where you basically ended Marco Rubio's presidential run, it's tough to be on the wrong side of Chris Christie in a debate.
00:44:28.720But that's especially true during the holidays when traffic is so high.
00:44:31.820But with all that holiday gift shopping and browsing online, you really could be one bad click away from a cyber threat headache.
00:44:38.360Get Norton 360 with LifeLock and help protect your identity and your devices against cyber threats.
00:44:44.020Norton 360 with LifeLock provides all-in-one protection with device security, identity theft protection, and a VPN for online privacy and more.
00:44:52.540Help protect your private and financial information when you go online with real-time device protection.
00:44:57.800If you have an ID theft protection problem, a U.S.-based identity restoration specialist will work with you to fix it.
00:45:04.780You won't just be floating in the air trying to get through to customer service.
00:45:07.620You'll get a live human being to walk you through it.
00:45:10.100You can browse anonymously in security with a no-log VPN.
00:45:13.600It's got bank-graded encryption to help you keep your information private.
00:45:17.160No one can prevent all cybercrime and identity theft or monitor all transactions at all businesses.
00:47:49.700But it's as sure as we sit here that that's what's going to happen.
00:47:53.660Let's talk about what happened down ballot.
00:47:55.320This is while the Democrats were pleased with what happened at the presidential level, certainly there were real concerns about down ballot.
00:48:02.460And I actually just I just started to look at it.
00:48:04.800I mean, I realized that they they lost House seats instead of gain them.
00:48:08.480And it doesn't look like they're going to win the Senate.
00:48:10.900But then I started to look at what really was happening in the states.
00:48:14.320There was a good report in The Atlantic that kind of laid it out.
00:48:17.480And I thought, oh, gosh, well, James is a good person to ask about this.
00:48:19.760This is what they said was Eric Holder, he formed this National Democratic Redistricting Committee.
00:48:26.640And their goal was to flip state legislative chambers in 18 and 20 to give more power to the Democrats at the state level.
00:48:34.400And that what really happened is they failed to flip a single legislative chamber that they lost majorities that they gained in states like New Hampshire.
00:48:41.980In Texas, they needed nine seats to win the statehouse after they did make some inroads in 2018 and they failed to gain a single seat.
00:48:48.680They struggled in Texas, Florida, Iowa, and North Carolina, where Trump did great and made it impossible for them to oust down ballot Republicans.
00:48:56.440But even in states like Minnesota, they lost their majorities, which is a state Biden carried.
00:49:05.940Well, it's first of all, it's disappointing from a Democratic standpoint.
00:49:09.820And look, just look at Florida, where $15 minimum wage got 60 percent of the vote and Biden barely broke 47.
00:49:19.600I think that it was the whole leftist part of the Democratic Party, the far left.
00:49:29.040I think they walked into a trap, to be honest with you.
00:49:36.060They're, you know, and we're just not that effective in messaging down ballot.
00:49:41.860I think we got knocked out of our 2018 game, where we did quite well, and we really spent our time talking about, you know, things like the minimum wage, things like prescription drug costs, things like expanding health care, things like infrastructure, things that were more relatable to people.
00:49:57.200I think that President-elect Biden did a good job on that, probably maybe lost a little focus toward the end.
00:50:05.040But there's no way that you can describe what happened below the presidential level as anything that was not encouraging result for Democrats.
00:50:17.960What do you mean you got, they got walked into a trap?
00:50:21.320Well, I think that when people started saying defund the police, I think a lot of people heard something that was, that they didn't much care for.
00:50:32.520I think that the country that made it at the moment after the George Floyd murder, I guess is the correct word to call it, sort of what I'd call it, there was a great deal of sympathy and a great deal of looking at it.
00:50:43.580And they just, the left just went way off in a really, I thought, extreme position.
00:50:54.080You know, the Democratic Party rather decisively decided what it wanted to be.
00:50:59.480And you had a classic matchup between Joe Biden, who's been in Democratic politics since the early 70s, and Bernie Sanders, who offered a real left-wing agenda for America.
00:51:11.760And he was highly funded, who was everywhere, and Biden beat him decisively.
00:51:16.720But some of the messaging that got out and sloganeering that was going on, I think, had an adverse effect.
00:51:29.440You mean, I know you've spoken before about the woke, the woke killing the Democrats in some of these races.
00:51:36.120People need to take, they need to take a nap, some of these people.
00:51:40.180I mean, they don't even have a majority, they don't even have a remotely, they're a minority of the Democratic Party.
00:51:49.900And somehow or another, they allow, we allow them to define the rest of us.
00:51:55.960The Democratic Party made a very strong statement about that.
00:52:01.000Look at the returns and how much better Biden did than Bernie Sanders.
00:52:06.540I mean, you know, if you want to believe in democracy, it's pretty clear where not just the country stands, it's pretty clear where the Democratic Party stands.
00:52:18.920We've been talking about that on this show, about how big is that leftist block within the Democrats.
00:52:24.540I'm always quick to point out, liberals, that's not the same as leftists.
00:52:29.320That's a, leftist is a different group.
00:52:38.680I believe in higher taxes on, on wealthy people.
00:52:41.440I believe, you know, that there has to be, you know, I believe that government intervention that is smart and targeted can make people's lives better.
00:52:49.720So I'm not, however, we, we, we can know exactly how strong they are because you can look, because again, Bernie Sanders was a classic leftist.
00:53:02.000I mean, he didn't make any bones about it.
00:53:03.800He, and he was very disciplined on message.
00:53:06.140He was the best funded candidate out there.
00:53:10.760Everybody had a chance to know exactly what he was for.
00:53:15.360Joe Biden is a, you know, solid candidate.
00:53:18.380I think you wouldn't know what he described as most exciting that, that, that they've ever seen.
00:53:22.700And the, the result was overwhelmingly in favor of Biden.
00:53:27.940So how they're not even that influential within the Democratic Party.
00:53:33.560And then the answer is when Congresswoman Spanberger said, you know, you, you told the squad that you're the reason that we lost these races, that the answer is we should have done more canvassing.
00:53:46.200I mean, come on, please, more canvassing.
00:55:17.920And the truth of the matter is, it's not, but on the other hand, questioned.
00:55:21.960They are, they are a small part of the Democratic, Democratic coalition.
00:55:28.160I mean, if you would have thought it was an earthquake that they, they win seats in central Boston and the Bronx, which, you know, when they come back and win a seat that has under a partisan vote,
00:55:41.000voting index on Cook, a bunch of plus Democratic 20, I'll be in, I'll be impressed.
00:55:46.980I mean, they, they don't respect voters, all right?
00:57:21.620But first of all, Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat.
00:57:24.020I don't think AOC is a Democrat either.
00:57:25.780And they, at some level, they expressed contempt for our voters because our voters told them exactly what they thought of it, which was very little.
00:57:37.840What do you think about the, it's not only the woke stuff from that crew, but a lot of sweeping condemnations of Trump voters.
00:57:48.060And, you know, you got Biden at the top calling for unity, which, you know, I, I'll give Biden the benefit of the doubt and say he actually would like that.
00:57:56.240But the problem isn't Biden so much as like the squad.
00:58:00.520And, and just two days ago, you had Ilhan Omar out there.
00:58:04.660I'll, I'll let the soundbite speak for itself, but here's how she refers to the Trump rallies.
00:59:35.220And until you develop a broad strategy that encompasses everyone, then, yeah, you can, you, you, you can win the popular vote in presidential election.
00:59:47.480You're probably going to do that fairly.
00:59:49.080And you can, you know, Biden's got an impressive win here, but if you try to run this urban strategy, you're, you're doomed to fail.
01:00:01.000It just, the, the, the math is not there.
01:00:04.860And, you know, and these people have ultimate safe seats so they can say anything they want to.
01:00:12.940And then the Democrats are out there, like Abigail Spanberg, who's in a not safe seat, you know, thank God she won, but it was, it was really close.
01:00:22.900They just can't accept, basically, the party does not agree with you.
01:00:27.860And instead of saying, how do we, how do we fit in or how do we try to advance some of our ideas in the Democratic Party, they just ignore the election results.
01:00:37.600And, you know, and, and, and, and, of course, you know, and a lot of people don't like this, this whole tyranny.
01:00:46.900I don't know what the, what the word is, cancel culture or, or, or whatever.
01:00:51.900But most people don't live their lives like that.
01:00:56.500If it's tyranny from the right, it's tyranny.
01:00:57.940If it's tyranny from the left, it's tyranny.
01:00:59.240Well, what do you think is going to happen now?
01:01:01.140Because some of these groups are, are sort of rearing up and saying, we put you in office and we expect to be, to be heard.
01:01:10.120You know, there was the Black Lives Matter co-founder Patrice Cullors, who wrote an open letter to Biden and Harris saying, we want something for our vote.
01:01:18.740And re, re, you know, double down on, we want the police defunded.
01:01:24.020And, you know, they say, if you don't want that, then you're in favor of police killing Black people.
01:01:29.360And, you know, and like you say, I think the vast majority of Americans, even I think Al Sharpton came out and said that that's nonsense.
01:01:35.660Like people don't want the police defunded.
01:01:37.440Black people don't want the police defunded.
01:01:39.680Let me just start before we go any further.
01:01:42.120There is a significant problem with policing and race in this country.
01:01:58.880How do you, how, how does a society, because if you do, I've seen a lot of males races, a lot of focus groups.
01:02:06.080And one of the biggest complaints that poor people have or Black people have is, well, yeah, if it's in the French Quarter, the police get there in three minutes.
01:02:15.220If it's out here in New Orleans East, it takes three hours.
01:02:17.660And, of course, I think anybody would tell you that you could certainly, they could reorient the police.
01:02:27.180You could have social workers going out and breaking up marital disputes.
01:02:30.680There's where more policemen are killed, by the way, breaking up marital disputes than they are breaking up armed robberies.
01:02:36.660There may be ways to have more effective policing, but we're not going to, we're not going to, nor should we, nor, you know, get rid of police.
01:02:47.560And, by the way, the most integrated institution in the United States is high-end policing in urban areas.
01:02:57.140I actually would consider myself a supporter of Black Lives Matter because one of the real structures of institutional white supremacy, which I'm definitely opposed to, is that you devalue black lives.
01:03:15.620You know, you look at a crime set, you say, well, gee, that's not in my neighborhood.
01:03:34.900I don't have, I mean, and I don't, I understand, and I never say, yeah, but all lives matter.
01:03:40.800I understand that, but that's not what they're saying.
01:03:43.460And that there, that there's just such a history in this country, or the world, I'm sure, of just devaluing the lives of black people.
01:03:51.880And, and, and, and, and, and, and I think that in talking about how we can, you know, as a society, we can have more effective policing, more humane policing, I think a lot of people would have been open to that.
01:04:06.520A lot of people would have been open to that and understand that.
01:04:11.680But, of course, they never, they, they're always right, no matter what.
01:04:19.320So, you know, so then after you lose and everything, you said, well, you need more canvassing, please.
01:04:28.540I mean, that's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard in my life.
01:04:32.640And your point is, it's not that we didn't get out there and canvas.
01:04:35.140It's that your message of defunding the police and related issues didn't resonate.
01:04:40.020And you got to come to terms with that.
01:05:15.920I had, if, if, if, if I, I'm not going to tell you because they're friends of mine, but the number of black leaders that have called me, all right, that in, and express disdain for this is, they're pretty powerful people.
01:05:36.480I mean, he, he, he just, he just had enough of it.
01:05:39.460I mean, I, I, I haven't talked, I, I haven't talked to, to Congressman Clyburn since the election, but I've talked to him frequently before that.
01:05:50.700Well, I feel like we've had a few black leaders come out and say, we're, we're not for this, but I don't, I do think you're right that the media is part of the problem.
01:06:00.080Because if you watched a lot of the media, you would think this is a mainstream position that people need to be canceled.
01:06:06.460It is a small part of the Democratic Party.
01:06:10.460All they have to do is go look at the, you know, what election returns.
01:06:15.960But you know, what's happening in a, in a country, it's cultural now, right?
01:06:19.500It's like, we've been talking about this on the show where your employer says you got to go to some implicit bias race training, or you can't work there.
01:06:27.760And then the white people are told to just sit there in silence while they're shamed for past actions of the United States.
01:06:38.700I, you know, that gets, that gets tagged on, on the Democrats too.
01:06:42.840Not, you know, Joe Biden hasn't really been pushing that stuff, although he did say he's bringing back these critical race theory, quote, training sessions.
01:06:51.660I think that some people, you know, I don't think workplace, you can make it a genuine and more secure place for people without, without going like totally like overboard.
01:07:01.800I mean, American history, the real American history is infused with enough racism to make you sick.
01:07:09.600The actual truth is pretty bad, but yeah, it just becomes, you know, people can't constrain themselves and then you get, you get, you get out there.
01:07:24.840But I'm not a, you know, I mean, you know, you've faced issues in, in, in your life.
01:07:33.660It's something you can't, sure can't say that sexism out there is not real because it is.
01:07:37.380And there are certainly things that people can do that can, you know, you can make people more aware.
01:07:47.380It, it, it, it, it, it, it can improve people's lives, but sometimes they just go like overboard and then you have all these like consulting firms that go sell these companies and stuff.
01:07:57.100And it's like anything else, you know, you know, there was a longshoreman philosopher back in the eighties called Eric Hoffer.
01:08:05.760And he made one of the smartest observations I've ever heard in my life.
01:08:11.920He said that every movement starts out as a cause, morphs into a business and ends up a racket.
01:08:18.820And you can just see that in everything you see.
01:08:26.600He just went right to a racket, but most, most of the time people start, Hey, let's get together.
01:08:33.120You know, let's, let's have a, a church and true believers and say, well, we've got to bond drive this thing.
01:08:38.620So let's, you know, pass the collection plate.
01:08:42.200And somebody says, yeah, yeah, let's start a foundation and then we can pay everybody out of it.
01:08:46.520I mean, it just, it just, any, any movement, no matter from what side, ideological spectrum that you come from or anything is always subjected to the natural evolution of things cause business racket.
01:09:04.960So what do you make of what's happening right now?
01:09:07.640And this is part of the broader messaging, but when it comes to unity, you're, you're married to a brilliant Republican.
01:09:14.000Everyone loves your marriage because it's, sadly, it's weird for a Democrat and a Republican to be so, so kind to one another that they fall in love and have a happy marriage.
01:09:25.440But you know, a thing or two about unity and how to get along with somebody whose political views are diametrically opposed to your own.
01:09:33.240Well, when we got married, it was more common than it is now, I guess.
01:09:38.800And I don't know, well, first of all, Trump is the greatest anti-unifier that ever lived.
01:09:51.160And hopefully, President-elect Biden, you know, I think there are people that are kind of looking for an exit ramp,
01:09:59.800but are unsure of how to, how to do it.
01:10:07.900And I hope that he has the wherewithal and the skills to, you know, we're always going to be pretty divided country.
01:10:31.680Maybe he seems like he's kind of nice to everybody.
01:10:34.340Maybe, you know, I have some, I got to have some hope that this kind of example will help people.
01:10:43.240But, you know, there's a story by a really good reporter that names people that they're scared to death that Trump is going to sell the nation's secrets to the Russians.
01:11:24.840I mean, if you look at, to me, which are the two most massive problems that this country faces,
01:11:33.580one is inequality and the other is climate, probably in somewhat reverse order because I think inequality would be easier to fix than climate.
01:11:43.420But it, and to me, it is so evident that on every level that those two issues just dwarf everything.
01:11:52.220And I, I don't know how we're going to, you know, reorient, reorient ourselves and.
01:12:01.040Well, that's, can I say that's, that's what I find so impossible about it.
01:12:06.180So Biden gets up there and says like, yeah, let's, what he actually said was we're united, we're healed.
01:12:41.840Inequality is that if you go, look at conservatives and economists, they'll tell you the same thing.
01:12:46.940The growing gap between rich people and poor people and the pandemic is nothing, has nothing, nothing, but make it worse.
01:12:56.860That at, at, at, at an end, and I mean, I think some of the, the disorder we have, probably a lot of it from both the left and the right are being fueled by this sense of abandonment of inequality of, I don't have any place for me to go in my life.
01:13:13.040And, you know, the, the, the, the 1% or go, whatever you want to call it, or take it off like that.
01:13:18.380How could anybody be idiotic enough to deny that there's not profound and, and adverse things happen to our climate?
01:13:25.680We had a category five hurricane in the middle of November, right?
01:14:41.400The unfortunate thing is, we'll probably for the most part be off of most of them.
01:14:46.400The question is, what about between now and then?
01:14:49.180I mean, people are not going to stop driving cars, but I don't think that anybody is going to be driving a piston, running a new car with a piston engine, but probably in five years.
01:15:05.200I mean, and some of it is just economic.
01:15:09.100I mean, it just needs to be the battery storage capacity has gotten so, so effective.
01:15:15.820I'm just saying, he said it explicitly.
01:15:17.920And if you're in the oil industry, and this is a quote, here's the quote here.