The Megyn Kelly Show - Elon Musk's Twitter Takeover, From All Angles, with Seth Dillon, Vivek Ramaswamy, and Peter Schiff ｜ Ep. 309

00:00:00.500 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.620 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:14.900 Today we're taking a deep dive into Elon Musk's eventual takeover of Twitter.

00:00:19.840 Everything you need to know about this.

00:00:21.600 What's happening inside the social media platform?

00:00:24.220 Who are the big winners and losers?

00:00:26.520 The big winners and the big whiners?

00:00:28.440 What's left or what's behind, I should say, the left's total meltdown over this.

00:00:34.100 My God, get yourselves together, people.

00:00:36.400 And what does it mean for banned conservatives, including former President Trump?

00:00:41.460 God, my team gave me the list of people who've been banned.

00:00:43.760 I forgot how long it is.

00:00:45.820 Do you know, we're going to talk about James O'Keefe today and Project Veritas

00:00:49.120 and this tape that they've gotten their hands on.

00:00:51.100 He's banned. Project Veritas is banned.

00:00:54.020 So many people are banned.

00:00:55.180 It's like they get banned and then you kind of forget about Marjorie Taylor Greene.

00:00:58.060 She's banned. 1.00

00:00:58.980 Trump's banned.

00:00:59.660 Anyway, we'll go.

00:01:00.420 We'll get into it.

00:01:01.120 What happens to them?

00:01:02.160 Do they come back to life?

00:01:03.040 Is there a resurrection?

00:01:04.920 And speaking of people who have been banned on Twitter,

00:01:07.300 we're very excited to have one of the key players in this story.

00:01:10.260 Just over a month ago, the right-leaning satirical news site,

00:01:13.700 the Babylon Bee, was suspended by Twitter after it named a transgender member of the Biden administration

00:01:20.560 as its man of the year.

00:01:22.520 It was a joke, you see, because this transgender woman was named one of the women of the year 1.00

00:01:29.560 recognized by USA Today.

00:01:31.060 And Rachel Levine spent almost her entire life as a man.

00:01:36.020 She didn't even turn trans until within the past 10 to 15 years.

00:01:39.520 And they literally want us to celebrate her as a feminine icon.

00:01:43.700 Meanwhile, all of her accomplishments came when she was a man.

00:01:46.380 And only in the last decade and a half has she switched over to being a woman.

00:01:50.080 So the bee was having some fun with it.

00:01:53.080 And they've been shut down and they haven't been resurrected.

00:01:56.500 And they won't be under the old Twitter management,

00:01:59.240 or they were told they wouldn't until they took down that tweet.

00:02:02.320 They refused.

00:02:03.780 And they've been sitting there in Twitter jail ever since.

00:02:07.400 Well, we should all be very glad this happened in a way,

00:02:10.040 because that story caught the attention of one Elon Musk,

00:02:13.400 who happens to be the richest man in the world,

00:02:15.260 who then happened to reach out to the company to confirm

00:02:18.520 that the Babylon Bee had, in fact, been suspended

00:02:21.620 prior to making his bid for Twitter, which was successful.

00:02:32.060 So my first guest today is the CEO of the Babylon Bee, Seth Dillon.

00:02:37.120 Welcome back to the show.

00:02:38.020 Great to have you.

00:02:39.020 Great to be back on the show.

00:02:40.060 Thanks, Megan.

00:02:41.160 It's such an awesome story.

00:02:42.640 You've got to be feeling pretty good today.

00:02:46.020 Well, I mean, the story's not over.

00:02:48.800 We are still locked out of Twitter.

00:02:50.760 The deal right now, you know, Twitter has accepted Musk's bid,

00:02:54.180 but the deal hasn't gone through yet.

00:02:55.900 So it's not a done deal.

00:02:58.360 Well, we'll see when all the ink is dry and the funds have been transferred

00:03:01.760 and ownership has exchanged hands and all of that,

00:03:04.880 what actually ends up happening.

00:03:07.160 As of this moment, we're still locked out of Twitter.

00:03:09.740 Yeah, right.

00:03:10.400 Because you won't take down your tweet.

00:03:12.080 Although what's happening?

00:03:13.500 Because I've seen a lot of people in the past couple of days since Elon,

00:03:17.480 since his offer was accepted, tweeting out,

00:03:21.600 Rachel Levine is a man and things like that.

00:03:24.660 And they're not being banned.

00:03:26.420 So what's the deal?

00:03:28.340 Like, have you noticed that?

00:03:29.460 And why the difference in treatment?

00:03:32.080 I have noticed that.

00:03:33.820 It's risky behavior.

00:03:35.700 Hats off to them for being willing to do that.

00:03:38.720 It could be that, you know,

00:03:39.900 they've put a freeze on some of their enforcement policies

00:03:42.840 while the deal is going through,

00:03:45.220 maybe to minimize the likelihood of some kind of controversy

00:03:48.640 coming up as a result of it

00:03:50.040 and the distraction that might result from that.

00:03:52.660 I'm not sure what's going on.

00:03:54.120 You also have this weird thing where

00:03:55.560 people's followings are jumping dramatically.

00:03:58.440 I don't know what yours looks like over there,

00:04:00.200 but mine has been climbing record numbers.

00:04:03.660 I think I gained like 15,000 followers

00:04:05.700 in the last 24 hours or something like that.

00:04:08.100 So there's been a lot of people gaining followers

00:04:09.920 and they're speculating about what the reason for that is.

00:04:13.560 I mean, obviously Twitter's in the news right now

00:04:15.400 and a lot of people who left Twitter before

00:04:17.240 for other platforms are possibly coming back to it

00:04:19.880 as a result of the change in ownership that's forthcoming.

00:04:24.460 But it could be more than that.

00:04:25.860 Some people are speculating that there's been a lift

00:04:29.060 on some of this shadow banning that's been happening

00:04:31.160 and that it's opening the floodgates to new followers.

00:04:33.920 I don't know.

00:04:34.360 I think that a lot of that is speculation,

00:04:35.940 but there is some crazy stuff happening on there right now.

00:04:38.560 All I know is I have 2.5 million followers.

00:04:40.940 I never click on what says 2.5 to see,

00:04:44.900 you know, how many, how close am I to 2.6?

00:04:48.880 Yeah, so I have no idea.

00:04:50.340 I definitely did not go from 2.5 to 2.6.

00:04:52.740 So we know I didn't gain 100,000 overnight.

00:04:55.940 Although Ben Shapiro was just saying in his show,

00:04:57.780 he gained something, he said, quote,

00:04:59.440 something like 200,000 overnight.

00:05:01.520 So I do believe there's some messing with the algorithm

00:05:04.380 and sort of a, you know, it's a cleanup.

00:05:06.640 It's a cleanup in aisle seven before the new boss comes in.

00:05:09.400 And then he can see all that they've been doing

00:05:11.700 and it's not going to work because he's going to see it.

00:05:14.300 That could be the case.

00:05:15.260 I don't know.

00:05:15.840 I don't want to, I don't want to speculate

00:05:17.400 because I don't know what's going on behind closed doors,

00:05:19.180 but a lot of people are speculating

00:05:20.200 that there's, you know,

00:05:20.800 a lot of documents being shredded right now

00:05:22.900 and a lot of coverup that's happening

00:05:25.600 and things that they don't want to be exposed.

00:05:29.060 Ultimately, you know,

00:05:29.660 they're not going to be able to hide all of that.

00:05:31.180 And it does sound like Musk wants

00:05:32.880 to make the algorithm open source,

00:05:34.480 which is really interesting.

00:05:35.980 But yeah, I mean, back to what you're saying.

00:05:37.560 I mean, it was a good day for free speech.

00:05:40.020 I think that a lot of people,

00:05:41.360 people who love free speech,

00:05:42.640 people who love this idea

00:05:43.920 that we should be able to express ourselves openly

00:05:47.540 and freely and not have restrictions.

00:05:50.140 You know, people who agree

00:05:51.520 with Twitter's terms of service, by the way,

00:05:53.880 in their intermission statement,

00:05:55.400 which says that they don't want

00:05:56.580 any barriers to free expression.

00:05:58.840 If you don't want barriers to free expression,

00:06:00.300 then it was a good day

00:06:01.200 because it sounds like Musk

00:06:02.300 is actually going to make sure

00:06:03.200 they live up to that statement.

00:06:04.520 And I don't think they have been up to this point.

00:06:06.820 So can we jump back?

00:06:07.780 So you got banned on Twitter

00:06:10.040 and not banned,

00:06:11.520 but I guess your account's been suspended.

00:06:13.480 So you're not able to tweet out

00:06:15.800 the funny things that we love the Babylon B for.

00:06:19.560 And it's conditional, right?

00:06:21.660 They've got you like a hostage situation

00:06:24.020 saying you will delete the tweet

00:06:26.100 or your account will remain our hostage.

00:06:29.800 And you refuse to delete the tweet.

00:06:32.000 So good for you, by the way.

00:06:33.220 Love that.

00:06:33.660 It happened to Charlie Kirk, too,

00:06:39.560 who said he was making a similar point

00:06:41.620 about Rachel Levine saying

00:06:42.800 she's actually a biological man

00:06:44.920 and he got locked out as well.

00:06:47.020 So like they're big on like, I don't know.

00:06:50.160 I like I don't know if it's because

00:06:51.780 you named her specifically.

00:06:53.220 Like they're not actually that clear

00:06:54.920 about how they apply their policies.

00:06:59.460 But you get suspended.

00:07:01.060 So what was the next iteration of that

00:07:03.640 as far as Elon Musk goes?

00:07:06.160 Well, the next iteration of the suspension,

00:07:08.880 you know, where is it going from there?

00:07:10.720 No, like what?

00:07:11.860 So then you find out that Elon Musk

00:07:13.800 has taken an interest in your suspension.

00:07:17.300 He only follows like 100 accounts

00:07:19.120 and you guys are one of them.

00:07:20.460 So you must have known that.

00:07:21.680 But like, it's quite different

00:07:22.920 when you find out, wait a minute,

00:07:24.100 he's actually personally taking

00:07:25.580 an interest in this somehow.

00:07:27.100 Yeah, well, you know,

00:07:28.220 I think that he I think

00:07:29.620 that he likes our content.

00:07:30.680 You know, he's interacted

00:07:31.480 with our content quite a bit.

00:07:32.660 And and and he noticed

00:07:34.480 that we'd stop posting it.

00:07:35.980 And this is the crazy thing,

00:07:37.400 by the way, this this idea

00:07:38.640 that we need to delete this tweet

00:07:40.120 to get back on.

00:07:40.960 Why do we have to delete the tweet?

00:07:42.720 Why?

00:07:43.420 I mean, if Twitter doesn't like the tweet

00:07:45.360 and they want to take it down,

00:07:47.260 then they can do that.

00:07:48.180 They have the power

00:07:48.760 to take the tweet down themselves.

00:07:50.060 It's it seems to me

00:07:51.320 that it's the submission thing.

00:07:52.700 They just want you to like bend the knee

00:07:54.300 and do what they want you to do

00:07:55.920 and acknowledge that you engaged

00:07:57.380 in hateful conduct.

00:07:58.440 And it is unclear.

00:08:00.580 I thought of that.

00:08:01.440 You're exactly right.

00:08:02.360 God, that's annoying.

00:08:03.740 It is a very it takes it a step further

00:08:05.760 than just simply having,

00:08:07.100 you know, if they were just

00:08:07.900 to take our delete

00:08:08.640 or tweet down

00:08:09.580 and delete it themselves,

00:08:10.500 then it would be annoying

00:08:12.240 that they did that,

00:08:13.320 that they that they censored us.

00:08:14.960 But at least they wouldn't be going

00:08:16.220 that extra step

00:08:17.020 of making us do it ourselves.

00:08:18.440 I think that that's taking

00:08:19.640 a little bit a little bit

00:08:20.740 further than it needs to go.

00:08:21.960 And it is unclear,

00:08:23.620 you know, what it is

00:08:24.580 that prompts these things.

00:08:25.680 I think right now

00:08:26.620 you're safe calling

00:08:27.680 a trans person

00:08:28.960 a biological male

00:08:30.740 if their sex is male.

00:08:33.100 But you're, you know,

00:08:34.100 you're not supposed to refer

00:08:34.900 to them as a man.

00:08:36.340 And so it really comes down

00:08:37.720 to the gender sex distinction

00:08:39.020 that they're trying to make.

00:08:40.080 And and our in our joke

00:08:41.560 referred to an individual

00:08:42.860 who is a transgender

00:08:44.860 as a man

00:08:45.880 rather than as a biological male.

00:08:47.840 And so that runs afoul

00:08:48.700 of the hateful conduct policy.

00:08:49.860 I think that's the that's

00:08:50.940 the sticking point there.

00:08:52.880 But yeah, I mean, Musk,

00:08:54.100 Musk is a big fan of the bee.

00:08:55.520 He's been following us

00:08:56.240 for some time.

00:08:56.900 And so he noticed

00:08:57.520 when we were missing.

00:08:58.760 And I think it's just,

00:08:59.580 you know, a lot of people

00:09:01.560 are giving the bee credit

00:09:02.660 as if we are the reason

00:09:03.860 why Musk decided to buy Twitter.

00:09:05.400 I think he had it in his head

00:09:06.380 for quite some time

00:09:07.560 leading up to this.

00:09:08.620 Maybe it was just

00:09:09.100 a contributing factor.

00:09:09.980 Maybe it was the straw

00:09:10.680 that broke the camel's back. 0.93

00:09:11.720 I'm not sure.

00:09:12.360 But but clearly he saw

00:09:13.920 that there was an issue

00:09:14.640 with heavy handed censorship

00:09:15.700 and wanted to do something about it.

00:09:17.460 And I think it's really

00:09:17.980 interesting, too,

00:09:18.700 because you have

00:09:20.220 so many people

00:09:20.780 who call themselves progressives.

00:09:23.320 And I have a different idea

00:09:24.300 of what progress means.

00:09:25.940 I think there's like

00:09:26.480 a really great quote

00:09:27.480 that C.S. Lewis had said

00:09:28.520 at one point about how

00:09:29.460 if you're on the wrong road,

00:09:31.340 then progress means

00:09:32.840 doing an about turn

00:09:33.860 and going back

00:09:34.520 to the right road.

00:09:35.940 And the man who turns back soonest

00:09:37.920 in that context

00:09:38.760 is the most progressive.

00:09:40.340 Musk is just trying to take us 0.97

00:09:41.480 back to the right road.

00:09:42.640 You know, these things started out.

00:09:43.860 These platforms were pitched

00:09:44.960 as free speech platforms

00:09:46.240 when they were first created.

00:09:47.740 There was not supposed

00:09:48.620 to be any barriers

00:09:49.520 to free expression.

00:09:50.660 He's trying to take us

00:09:51.520 back to that road

00:09:52.560 to get us on the right road.

00:09:53.700 And so in that sense,

00:09:54.400 I think this is a progressive move.

00:09:56.540 I agree with that.

00:09:58.340 So without asking you

00:09:59.760 about your private conversations

00:10:00.880 with Elon Musk,

00:10:01.880 because I know that's

00:10:02.540 that's between the two of you.

00:10:03.860 Did he call you personally?

00:10:05.480 Like, were you,

00:10:06.580 you know,

00:10:07.200 was there a moment

00:10:07.960 where you were like,

00:10:08.640 oh, my God,

00:10:09.300 Elon Musk is on the phone for me?

00:10:10.740 We had a couple

00:10:13.200 we had a couple of moments

00:10:14.160 like that initially

00:10:14.960 when we were

00:10:15.660 we're trying to book him

00:10:16.760 for an interview

00:10:17.440 for our podcast.

00:10:19.300 You know,

00:10:19.840 there was no expectation

00:10:20.860 that he would respond

00:10:21.760 to a DM on Twitter.

00:10:23.220 And then all of a sudden he did.

00:10:24.740 And he was talking to us

00:10:25.600 about why in the world

00:10:26.440 do you have an office

00:10:27.160 in California?

00:10:28.520 You know, it's it's nice weather,

00:10:29.940 but it's the most expensive

00:10:30.800 weather in the world.

00:10:32.240 You know,

00:10:32.680 there was this like banter

00:10:33.680 that was going back and forth

00:10:34.780 all of a sudden.

00:10:35.300 It's like, OK,

00:10:35.860 we've got Elon Musk on the line.

00:10:37.400 What do we do?

00:10:37.940 How do we get him on our on our show?

00:10:39.420 So, yeah,

00:10:41.500 I mean, he he reached out.

00:10:43.000 He just wanted to confirm

00:10:43.920 that we had been suspended.

00:10:45.800 And so, you know,

00:10:46.860 he wanted to have

00:10:47.620 an actual conversation

00:10:49.280 to confirm that

00:10:50.200 instead of just, you know,

00:10:51.240 reading about it online

00:10:52.320 and and trying to figure out

00:10:53.840 if it was actually true.

00:10:55.300 OK, that I mean,

00:10:56.500 it's it's spiraled

00:10:58.100 to such a crazy place

00:11:00.020 since then.

00:11:01.380 When you saw that

00:11:02.420 he had acquired

00:11:03.000 the nine percent 0.98

00:11:03.760 of Twitter stock,

00:11:04.780 did you think,

00:11:05.600 oh, my God,

00:11:06.560 he's going to buy Twitter?

00:11:09.420 That is what we thought.

00:11:11.020 I mean, it was

00:11:11.920 he was giving

00:11:12.540 all of these public statements

00:11:13.840 that were kind of

00:11:14.560 just leading people

00:11:15.360 to believe that

00:11:15.980 he was really going

00:11:16.660 to take action.

00:11:17.280 That poll that he initially ran

00:11:18.740 where he said,

00:11:19.460 do you believe

00:11:19.900 that free speech

00:11:20.740 is a principle

00:11:21.760 that Twitter really adheres to?

00:11:23.460 And he's and he warned people.

00:11:25.080 He's like,

00:11:25.560 there will be important

00:11:26.340 consequences for this poll.

00:11:27.820 So vote accordingly.

00:11:30.180 You know,

00:11:30.780 I think he was making it clear.

00:11:32.080 He told us

00:11:32.640 when we interviewed him

00:11:33.600 a few months ago,

00:11:34.440 he told us,

00:11:35.300 you don't have to read

00:11:36.420 between the lines with me.

00:11:37.440 Just read the lines.

00:11:38.640 I'll tell you

00:11:39.500 what I'm thinking

00:11:40.140 and and I'm not going

00:11:41.380 to try to mislead you

00:11:42.400 whether or not

00:11:44.140 you could say

00:11:44.600 that that's been

00:11:45.140 consistently true

00:11:45.960 for him throughout

00:11:46.800 throughout the past.

00:11:47.740 You know,

00:11:47.860 if you apply it

00:11:48.420 in this in this case,

00:11:49.440 you just take him

00:11:50.020 at face value.

00:11:51.140 It was very clear

00:11:51.820 that he wanted

00:11:52.260 to get involved

00:11:52.880 in a big way

00:11:53.540 in Twitter

00:11:53.940 very early on

00:11:55.040 with his public statements.

00:11:56.780 Wow.

00:11:57.360 And and have you

00:11:58.640 spoken with him

00:11:59.600 at all this week?

00:12:01.520 No, we're not

00:12:02.140 talking to him

00:12:02.920 on a day to day basis.

00:12:04.820 We certainly

00:12:05.520 don't want to bother him

00:12:06.380 while he's really busy.

00:12:08.040 We've got to do

00:12:08.780 this other thing.

00:12:09.460 It has to complete.

00:12:10.840 Yeah, we'd love

00:12:11.540 to ask him

00:12:12.080 to bust us

00:12:12.660 out of Twitter jail.

00:12:14.000 But, you know,

00:12:14.780 we'll get there

00:12:15.500 when the time comes.

00:12:16.560 I don't think

00:12:16.900 he's in a position

00:12:17.460 to do that

00:12:17.880 at this moment.

00:12:18.740 Wait, that reminds me

00:12:19.640 of the Kyle Mann skit

00:12:20.640 that you guys did.

00:12:21.640 So Kyle is the one

00:12:23.120 who does a lot

00:12:23.640 of your writing

00:12:24.100 as I understand it.

00:12:25.460 And yeah,

00:12:26.200 and and you guys

00:12:27.060 did this little skit

00:12:27.840 sort of well,

00:12:29.000 I'll just let it play out

00:12:30.300 and let the audience

00:12:30.840 listen to it

00:12:31.480 and watch it.

00:12:32.320 It's soundbite one.

00:12:33.840 We got thrown in here

00:12:34.500 for a pretty terrible crime.

00:12:35.800 We gave Rachel Levine

00:12:37.440 our Man of the Year award.

00:12:39.220 We were just trying

00:12:39.900 to honor such a great man.

00:12:41.900 Pretty heinous, right?

00:12:43.260 But we're making do.

00:12:44.900 You know,

00:12:45.240 we've even been able

00:12:45.900 to continue publishing articles

00:12:47.320 with this laptop

00:12:48.520 that someone left here

00:12:49.840 in Twitter jail.

00:12:50.440 Oh, this is Hunter Biden.

00:12:51.440 The showers, of course,

00:12:52.080 they're a little scary.

00:12:53.420 I've been really careful

00:12:54.820 not to drop the cell.

00:12:55.840 Hey! 0.99

00:12:56.520 No homophobic comments!

00:12:58.320 Oh, yeah.

00:12:59.360 I can't say stuff

00:13:00.180 like that in here.

00:13:01.740 But don't worry.

00:13:02.780 I've got a plan to get out.

00:13:04.300 I'm digging a tunnel

00:13:05.140 behind this poster.

00:13:06.480 As soon as I finish it,

00:13:07.740 I'll be as free

00:13:08.440 as the Taliban, 0.56

00:13:09.600 Vladimir Putin,

00:13:10.380 Kathy Griffin,

00:13:11.340 the Chinese government,

00:13:12.040 and all the other

00:13:12.680 wonderful people

00:13:13.320 who are still out on Twitter.

00:13:17.780 What's that?

00:13:18.940 I'm Elon Musk.

00:13:19.640 I'm here to rescue you.

00:13:22.380 It's great.

00:13:23.320 Trump, for the listening audience,

00:13:24.820 Trump is in the background

00:13:25.860 just, like, filing his cards

00:13:27.900 because he's also in Twitter jail.

00:13:29.980 So I think that's actually

00:13:31.360 going to happen.

00:13:32.180 There's zero doubt

00:13:33.060 that the Babylon Bee

00:13:34.240 will come back

00:13:35.000 if this sale concludes

00:13:37.480 and probably even short of that

00:13:39.240 because I think Twitter

00:13:40.020 is being just publicly dragged

00:13:41.460 right now

00:13:42.040 in such a way

00:13:43.780 that it's going to have to,

00:13:44.980 even if this falls through,

00:13:46.360 they're going to have to reexamine

00:13:47.420 the way they've been

00:13:48.260 approaching their business model

00:13:50.180 because there's just,

00:13:51.220 there's too much anger at them

00:13:53.240 over the way it's been.

00:13:55.040 Don't you think?

00:13:55.520 I mean, this whole thing

00:13:56.620 has really served to expose

00:13:58.360 just how biased

00:13:59.540 against conservatives they are.

00:14:02.080 I don't think that would result

00:14:03.560 in them backing down on it, though.

00:14:05.380 I mean, look how they're reacting to Musk.

00:14:06.980 It's the most interesting thing

00:14:08.220 that they're all up in arms,

00:14:10.820 that they're not going to be able

00:14:11.720 to censor everyone

00:14:12.820 as much as they have been.

00:14:13.960 And it's a funny thing, too,

00:14:14.960 coming from people

00:14:15.540 who have been assuring us

00:14:16.400 that they haven't been censoring us

00:14:17.840 up to this point.

00:14:18.900 So on the one hand,

00:14:19.540 they're like,

00:14:19.840 no, we've never censored anyone.

00:14:21.240 This is a fair platform.

00:14:22.440 You know, we enforce the rules

00:14:23.400 really fairly.

00:14:24.480 And then all of a sudden,

00:14:25.080 Musk says,

00:14:25.560 I'm going to open this up

00:14:26.380 and make it a free speech platform.

00:14:27.640 And they freak out

00:14:28.580 like that's a big deal.

00:14:29.780 Well, why is that a big deal

00:14:30.760 if that's what you've been doing

00:14:31.620 the whole time

00:14:32.140 if you haven't been censoring?

00:14:33.320 So it's really interesting

00:14:34.540 to see the reaction.

00:14:35.340 But I don't think that,

00:14:37.040 I don't think that

00:14:38.400 if the deal, for example,

00:14:39.760 were to fall through

00:14:40.480 or something,

00:14:41.000 then Twitter would have their own accord

00:14:42.480 try to fix these problems.

00:14:43.740 I don't really think that they care.

00:14:45.880 They're really forceful

00:14:47.560 in trying to get you

00:14:48.460 to adopt their ideology,

00:14:49.960 their way of thinking.

00:14:51.300 They unapologetically

00:14:52.500 will try to say

00:14:53.500 they know what's real,

00:14:55.200 what's fake information.

00:14:56.760 They know what's good

00:14:57.680 and an acceptable speech

00:15:00.660 and what's hate speech

00:15:01.860 and what's unacceptable.

00:15:03.260 And they're happy

00:15:03.960 to shove that down our throats.

00:15:05.940 All right.

00:15:06.080 So this may sound

00:15:06.720 like a weird question,

00:15:07.620 but explain why

00:15:08.600 you think it's important

00:15:09.760 for the Babylon Bee

00:15:10.980 to be able to say,

00:15:12.100 Rachel Levine

00:15:13.200 is our man of the year.

00:15:15.920 Where to begin with that?

00:15:17.180 I mean, I think it's

00:15:17.720 a basic fundamental truth.

00:15:19.420 It's like,

00:15:20.220 it's like,

00:15:20.620 why is it important

00:15:21.380 to be able to say

00:15:22.060 that two plus two equals four

00:15:23.600 when people are trying

00:15:25.040 to tell you

00:15:25.460 that two plus two equals five

00:15:27.040 and that you have to say

00:15:28.300 that two plus two equals five?

00:15:30.080 I mean, I think that's just

00:15:31.080 what free speech is.

00:15:32.980 You know, it's like

00:15:33.920 that Orwell quote.

00:15:34.800 If that, if that,

00:15:35.580 if two plus,

00:15:36.200 if you're allowed to say

00:15:36.840 that two plus two equals four,

00:15:38.240 then everything else

00:15:39.600 follows from there.

00:15:40.400 Um, that's freedom.

00:15:42.340 I think that's just

00:15:42.960 at bedrock,

00:15:43.860 that's what freedom is.

00:15:44.760 And I, and I don't think,

00:15:46.060 um, that, that speaking

00:15:47.900 the truth or,

00:15:48.660 or stating simple

00:15:49.620 biological facts

00:15:50.740 is, can possibly

00:15:52.520 be hate speech.

00:15:53.500 Um, you know,

00:15:54.700 a fact is just a fact.

00:15:55.980 It's just a brute fact

00:15:57.060 and you can't try

00:15:57.700 to get at the motives

00:15:58.520 of someone who's

00:15:59.260 willing to say a fact.

00:16:00.680 So I don't know this,

00:16:02.140 this whole,

00:16:02.740 this whole idea

00:16:03.340 that we have to,

00:16:04.060 uh, to buy into this stuff,

00:16:05.960 you know, and this is

00:16:06.520 one of the issues

00:16:07.120 that I have with Twitter

00:16:07.860 right now is that they

00:16:08.620 have their own ideology

00:16:10.560 is baked into their

00:16:12.060 terms of service.

00:16:13.120 They have this ringing

00:16:14.100 tribute to free speech

00:16:15.420 on the front end

00:16:16.100 of their, of their

00:16:16.840 mission statement.

00:16:17.760 And then you dig down

00:16:18.880 into the terms of service

00:16:19.960 and they have a

00:16:20.520 hateful conduct policy

00:16:21.680 that includes all kinds

00:16:22.720 of things like dead

00:16:23.740 naming and misgendering

00:16:24.900 as hateful conduct.

00:16:27.100 And if you disagree,

00:16:28.620 you know, there's,

00:16:29.120 there's a lot of people

00:16:29.840 who think it's misgendering

00:16:30.900 to call someone

00:16:31.640 who's biologically male,

00:16:33.860 a woman.

00:16:34.580 They consider that

00:16:35.600 misgendering,

00:16:36.360 but we can't even have

00:16:37.240 a debate or discussion

00:16:38.200 about that.

00:16:39.060 And I think that's

00:16:39.560 ultimately what it comes

00:16:40.340 to.

00:16:40.520 If you're going to say

00:16:41.100 that you're a free speech

00:16:41.860 platform with no barriers

00:16:43.180 to free expression,

00:16:44.020 then you have to let

00:16:45.000 people debate those

00:16:45.920 things.

00:16:46.220 And what's the harm

00:16:47.240 in letting them talk,

00:16:48.180 talk it out and try

00:16:49.240 to convince each other.

00:16:50.580 Why do you have to tell

00:16:51.460 them that they must only

00:16:53.100 say or think one thing?

00:16:55.620 Vivek, uh, Ramaswamy

00:16:57.040 is coming out a little

00:16:57.680 later, tech executive

00:16:59.120 and, um, philanthropist

00:17:00.860 and, you know, knows a lot

00:17:02.560 about this world.

00:17:03.140 And one of the things

00:17:04.620 he says, and I think

00:17:05.760 this is exactly right,

00:17:06.680 is they smuggle in

00:17:09.620 their viewpoint

00:17:11.320 discrimination through

00:17:13.400 that, that part of the

00:17:15.900 policy you mentioned at

00:17:16.860 the bottom, speaking to

00:17:17.820 hate speech, right?

00:17:19.200 So who decides what is

00:17:21.120 hate speech?

00:17:22.140 How is it hateful for

00:17:23.740 you to push back on the

00:17:24.820 narrative that Rachel

00:17:26.240 Levine, who lived the

00:17:28.000 vast majority of her life

00:17:29.840 as a man, uh, is in

00:17:32.180 fact a man.

00:17:33.100 And you're basically

00:17:33.880 saying shouldn't be

00:17:34.740 honored as one of USA

00:17:36.820 today's women of the

00:17:37.920 year.

00:17:38.940 That's a view.

00:17:39.840 That's, that's a

00:17:40.620 legitimate point of view

00:17:41.920 that a lot of people

00:17:42.920 share.

00:17:43.800 And so the way they

00:17:45.400 smuggle in to steal

00:17:46.860 Vivek's, uh, turn of

00:17:49.200 phrase, their, their

00:17:50.760 viewpoint discrimination

00:17:52.040 against you is by

00:17:54.120 calling it hate speech,

00:17:55.580 by labeling it.

00:17:56.580 Now, I mean, like it's

00:17:57.360 not like somebody's on

00:17:58.220 there dropping the N

00:17:59.200 word.

00:17:59.560 There are certain

00:18:00.020 things we can all

00:18:00.820 agree depending on, I

00:18:02.860 mean, like I would

00:18:03.440 agree, but if I listen

00:18:04.600 to Spotify, I hear that

00:18:05.500 word every other two

00:18:06.300 seconds.

00:18:07.320 Um, but there are

00:18:08.020 certain words that we

00:18:08.960 can, most of us agree

00:18:10.200 should not be bandied

00:18:11.500 about with impunity on,

00:18:12.900 on a forum like Twitter,

00:18:14.140 which isn't run by the

00:18:15.200 government, but a

00:18:16.080 private company, but they

00:18:18.580 draw the line on

00:18:20.120 anything that challenges

00:18:21.880 liberal orthodoxies.

00:18:23.860 Yeah.

00:18:24.160 And not, you know, not

00:18:25.380 just that, but it also

00:18:26.500 comes down to the COVID

00:18:27.440 misinformation stuff, you 0.85

00:18:29.160 know, and, and these,

00:18:29.960 and these things are

00:18:30.520 moving targets.

00:18:31.400 They're constantly

00:18:32.100 changing.

00:18:32.700 It's not like they have

00:18:33.480 like some fixed, uh,

00:18:35.360 rigid policy that's just,

00:18:36.840 you know, that's rooted

00:18:37.620 in reality and you, and

00:18:38.780 you have to, and you

00:18:39.520 have to deal with that.

00:18:40.380 They have this, these

00:18:41.280 moving targets everywhere

00:18:42.300 that you have to keep up

00:18:43.180 with.

00:18:43.400 And what's, what's

00:18:44.140 misinformation one day

00:18:45.380 is a fact the next day.

00:18:47.100 And then, you know,

00:18:47.860 what's, what's hate

00:18:48.560 speech, you know, today

00:18:50.280 wasn't hate speech

00:18:51.200 yesterday.

00:18:51.920 These things are changing

00:18:52.860 all the time.

00:18:53.460 It's hard to keep up

00:18:54.080 with it, but it is, it

00:18:54.980 is smuggled in.

00:18:55.780 It is, it is the

00:18:56.480 problem that, that the,

00:18:57.680 uh, that the terms of

00:18:58.820 service themselves have

00:19:00.520 ideology, progressive

00:19:01.680 ideology baked into them

00:19:03.160 so that you have to

00:19:04.040 affirm that ideology or

00:19:05.440 at least, or at the

00:19:06.860 very least, like just

00:19:07.840 not even speak about

00:19:08.780 these issues and

00:19:09.440 refrain from, uh, opining

00:19:10.980 on them at all, uh, in

00:19:12.820 order to stay on the

00:19:13.520 platform.

00:19:14.120 And I don't think

00:19:14.820 that's healthy for

00:19:15.420 democracy, especially if

00:19:16.620 the platform is so large

00:19:18.080 that you have tens of

00:19:19.120 millions of active users.

00:19:20.460 It's where most of the,

00:19:21.600 of the public discourse

00:19:22.680 takes place, not just

00:19:24.000 between private

00:19:24.600 citizens, but between

00:19:25.520 government officials and

00:19:26.560 private citizens, when you

00:19:27.940 have a platform at that

00:19:29.040 level and it's, and it's

00:19:30.720 that influential in terms

00:19:32.020 of shaping public

00:19:32.860 thought, uh, and, and in

00:19:34.420 terms of disseminating

00:19:35.480 information out to the

00:19:36.580 masses, um, you have to be

00:19:38.380 willing to have debate on

00:19:39.960 that platform, good faith

00:19:41.160 debate.

00:19:41.500 And so much of this is done

00:19:43.560 in good faith.

00:19:44.080 And a lot of people would

00:19:44.860 argue, you know, from the,

00:19:46.120 from the other side, the

00:19:46.880 conservative side of this

00:19:47.860 is that when you, when you,

00:19:49.580 when you confront people with

00:19:51.260 the facts on these issues,

00:19:52.620 that's not hate, you know,

00:19:54.340 telling the truth is a

00:19:55.520 loving thing to do.

00:19:56.520 It's a compassionate thing

00:19:57.620 to do.

00:19:58.040 You know, affirming a lie is,

00:19:59.980 is not a compassionate or

00:20:01.200 loving thing to do.

00:20:02.140 And I think there's a

00:20:02.980 discussion to be had about

00:20:03.940 that.

00:20:04.300 What constitutes actual

00:20:05.400 compassion, love, um, you

00:20:07.420 know, it's defined as hate

00:20:08.820 speech to tell the truth.

00:20:10.040 Uh, I think that's a

00:20:11.220 problematic position to

00:20:12.220 take.

00:20:12.500 And I think it's, it's

00:20:13.340 certainly, it's certainly

00:20:14.420 something that we should be

00:20:15.160 able to debate.

00:20:16.840 You know, I think about

00:20:18.780 this sometimes remember

00:20:20.580 Dr. Keith Abloh, he's got

00:20:22.960 in all sorts of trouble

00:20:23.800 since, since back when we

00:20:25.280 used to have him on a Fox

00:20:26.480 during the day, I haven't

00:20:28.000 followed it that closely,

00:20:28.840 but he did make a point

00:20:30.120 that there is some, there's

00:20:32.480 a mental disorder in the

00:20:34.520 psychiatric field where some

00:20:36.120 people feel like they have

00:20:37.600 to cut off their arm and

00:20:39.920 they feel really strongly

00:20:41.460 that their arm must come

00:20:43.120 off or they're going to

00:20:44.340 die or they can't live

00:20:45.300 and something.

00:20:46.520 And he said, if somebody

00:20:47.800 like that comes into my

00:20:48.720 office, I say, no, you're

00:20:51.420 not right.

00:20:52.420 We're not going to cut off

00:20:53.540 your arm that you're not

00:20:55.060 going to die if, if you

00:20:56.100 don't cut that arm off.

00:20:57.180 And he was likening that to

00:20:59.180 the way he would treat

00:21:00.600 somebody who thinks they're

00:21:01.600 trans, um, coming into his

00:21:03.840 office.

00:21:04.040 Now I realize today people

00:21:05.440 freak out.

00:21:06.260 They freaked out back then

00:21:07.160 for him, from him saying

00:21:08.200 that, but certainly by

00:21:10.120 today's standards, he'd

00:21:11.100 get in trouble by saying

00:21:12.320 something like that.

00:21:13.500 But, you know, there is a

00:21:15.180 real question about whether

00:21:16.520 we should be able to push

00:21:17.780 back on people who say, I

00:21:21.060 have this intense need to

00:21:24.000 chop off my genitals, right? 1.00

00:21:26.960 Like, why can't there be

00:21:28.680 more of a community saying,

00:21:30.000 no, you are wrestling with

00:21:32.320 something inside of you that

00:21:34.100 may not be real, that may be

00:21:36.200 curable.

00:21:37.140 It's not gay conversion 1.00

00:21:38.500 therapy.

00:21:38.900 It's making sure this person

00:21:40.940 really is suffering from the

00:21:42.620 thing he thinks he's

00:21:43.440 suffering from and sparing

00:21:45.120 them, sparing them a lifetime

00:21:46.800 of agony if they make a

00:21:48.740 terrible decision the wrong

00:21:50.800 way.

00:21:52.380 Right.

00:21:53.120 Yeah.

00:21:53.680 It's not like these are all

00:21:54.900 just, uh, happy success

00:21:56.720 stories where after these

00:21:58.000 transitions, you know, there's

00:21:59.220 no issues after that.

00:22:00.280 Everyone just feels, uh, uh,

00:22:02.200 perfectly, uh, fine and

00:22:04.220 content and happy in their

00:22:05.280 new identity.

00:22:06.640 Um, but, but even if you

00:22:08.160 just bring it down to the

00:22:09.840 fact that these are adults

00:22:11.180 making their own decisions

00:22:12.320 and you say, okay, well,

00:22:13.380 you know, someone can do

00:22:14.180 what they want to do and

00:22:14.920 identify how they want to

00:22:16.020 identify.

00:22:16.700 You still have the issue of

00:22:18.060 compelled speech.

00:22:19.000 You still have the issue of,

00:22:20.700 well, you're forcing other

00:22:21.500 people to acknowledge that

00:22:22.920 and, and, uh, and agree with

00:22:24.440 that and affirm that or not

00:22:26.220 speak at all.

00:22:27.040 And I think that that's a

00:22:28.160 problem, even if you're fine

00:22:29.720 with, um, the fact that

00:22:31.220 people can identify with

00:22:32.280 however they want or have

00:22:33.220 whatever surgeries they want

00:22:34.420 to have, um, you know, the

00:22:36.380 issue of compelled speech I

00:22:37.640 think is one that's, that,

00:22:38.740 that's a serious issue right

00:22:40.060 now.

00:22:40.520 In the Ablo, uh, discussion,

00:22:41.940 it would be the equivalent

00:22:42.940 of, you know, the person

00:22:44.420 says, I know I don't have a

00:22:45.640 left arm.

00:22:46.160 I want it off.

00:22:46.900 Why is it still there?

00:22:47.660 Sometimes I know I'm missing

00:22:48.700 my left arm and the, and

00:22:50.020 the left arm needs to come

00:22:50.840 off.

00:22:51.140 It'd be the same as Twitter

00:22:52.080 saying, you must refer to

00:22:53.560 that person as a one-armed

00:22:54.620 man.

00:22:55.080 You must.

00:22:55.900 And you're like, I can see

00:22:57.140 two arms.

00:22:57.840 And they're like, it's

00:22:58.980 disrespectful and it's

00:23:00.320 hateful for you to call him

00:23:01.780 anything other than a

00:23:02.540 one-armed man.

00:23:03.260 I mean, that's effectively

00:23:03.960 where we are right now.

00:23:05.160 And the rest of us are

00:23:06.040 standing there saying, I

00:23:07.020 know what my eyes can show

00:23:08.720 me.

00:23:08.940 I see two arms.

00:23:10.900 Well, and it also comes

00:23:11.840 down to, you know, the

00:23:13.300 person who is offended by

00:23:15.400 what you have to say, let's

00:23:16.780 say, you know, somebody

00:23:17.800 gets really upset that

00:23:18.780 they've been misgendered 0.95

00:23:19.840 because it, it hurts their

00:23:20.940 feelings or it upsets them.

00:23:22.260 It makes them angry.

00:23:23.080 It doesn't, you know, it's

00:23:24.120 not what, how they want

00:23:25.000 you to identify them.

00:23:26.260 Well, I mean, there's plenty

00:23:28.720 of cases where, where, where

00:23:31.060 people on the left say

00:23:32.320 hurtful things about people

00:23:33.880 on the right, call them

00:23:34.720 Nazis, call them racists,

00:23:36.320 call them horrible names.

00:23:37.380 I've been called horrible

00:23:38.360 names.

00:23:38.720 I'm sure you've been called

00:23:39.660 terrible names.

00:23:41.120 And that, and that hurts our

00:23:42.420 feelings, right?

00:23:43.080 It's not, it's not nice to

00:23:44.220 hear when people, when people

00:23:45.460 say mean things about you.

00:23:47.820 They have a right to say

00:23:49.020 them.

00:23:49.260 Sometimes they do say them

00:23:50.340 from a place of hate as

00:23:51.640 well.

00:23:51.960 And sometimes it's because

00:23:53.360 they just don't like us as a

00:23:54.640 person.

00:23:54.940 And it's not just that

00:23:55.920 they're trying to speak

00:23:56.660 truth to us because they

00:23:57.820 love us.

00:23:59.200 But, you know, there's,

00:24:00.540 there's plenty of examples

00:24:01.800 of speech like that, that

00:24:03.180 isn't deemed problematic on

00:24:04.700 these platforms.

00:24:05.220 So they're very specific

00:24:06.460 about what they hone in on

00:24:07.680 and consider it an offense

00:24:09.720 that, you know, you can't

00:24:10.620 come back from that results

00:24:11.700 in a permanent suspension.

00:24:13.540 Yeah.

00:24:14.000 The trans issue in

00:24:14.900 particular is very dicey for

00:24:16.320 them.

00:24:16.660 They, they are very

00:24:17.480 protective on this issue.

00:24:18.680 And that's because trans 1.00

00:24:19.920 lobbyists are so damn loud.

00:24:21.520 And again, I've said this

00:24:22.800 many times, do not represent

00:24:24.000 the majority of trans

00:24:25.140 people who are not these

00:24:27.560 crazy, like far left

00:24:29.740 lunatics that their

00:24:30.780 advocates are.

00:24:31.740 I mean, it's just crazy.

00:24:32.600 Like Katie Herzog's been

00:24:33.840 saying, get better people,

00:24:34.920 get better representatives.

00:24:36.380 But here is some of it was

00:24:37.880 encapsulated in the

00:24:38.760 discussion that they had on

00:24:39.860 Joe Rogan.

00:24:40.660 This is 2019.

00:24:42.280 And you remember this, we

00:24:43.480 had Tim Poole on the show

00:24:44.420 and we talked about this

00:24:45.220 moment, this incredible

00:24:46.000 moment where Jack Dorsey

00:24:47.880 that, you know, the former,

00:24:49.380 the founder and head of

00:24:50.320 then CEO of Twitter and his

00:24:52.520 chief legal officer.

00:24:53.500 I think she's general

00:24:54.160 counsel, went on to the

00:24:56.000 Joe Rogan show and Joe had

00:24:58.120 Tim Poole come on, who was

00:25:00.100 really well versed in all of

00:25:01.520 this and kind of cross

00:25:03.340 examine these guys on their

00:25:04.800 censorship policy.

00:25:06.040 We have a little bit of

00:25:06.760 that queued up with

00:25:07.860 soundbite for.

00:25:09.320 So your platform

00:25:10.780 restricts speech.

00:25:13.020 Our platform promotes

00:25:14.040 speech unless people

00:25:15.280 violate our rules.

00:25:16.880 And in a specific

00:25:17.500 direction.

00:25:18.620 In any direction.

00:25:19.700 But uncle, I don't want to

00:25:20.860 say his name.

00:25:21.380 The guy who calls for

00:25:22.160 death gets a suspension.

00:25:23.040 The guy who insinuates

00:25:24.320 death gets a permanent

00:25:25.000 ban.

00:25:25.460 But Tim, you're you're

00:25:26.540 misinterpreting what I'm

00:25:27.660 saying.

00:25:28.060 And I feel like you're

00:25:28.760 doing it deliberately.

00:25:29.700 It's not about one

00:25:30.580 particular thing.

00:25:31.300 It's about a pattern and

00:25:32.280 practice of violating.

00:25:33.060 And you have a pattern and

00:25:34.080 practice of banning only one

00:25:35.420 faction of people recently

00:25:36.980 published an article where

00:25:37.980 they looked at 22 high

00:25:39.260 profile bannings from 2015

00:25:40.380 and found 21 of them were

00:25:42.240 only on one side of the

00:25:43.640 cultural debate.

00:25:44.200 But I don't look at the

00:25:45.360 political spectrum of people

00:25:46.480 when I'm looking at their

00:25:47.380 tweets.

00:25:47.600 Right.

00:25:47.860 You have a bias.

00:25:48.900 I don't know who they

00:25:49.120 are.

00:25:49.480 You're biased and you're

00:25:50.700 you're targeting specific

00:25:51.720 individuals because your

00:25:52.620 rules support this

00:25:53.700 perspective.

00:25:54.460 No, I don't agree with

00:25:55.960 that.

00:25:56.100 Well, so can you be clear

00:25:57.180 though?

00:25:57.480 And like what rules

00:25:58.480 support that perspective?

00:25:59.220 Specifically, the easiest

00:26:00.580 one is misgendering, right?

00:26:01.740 Because that's so clearly

00:26:02.720 ideological.

00:26:03.400 If you ask a conservative

00:26:04.660 what is misgendering, they'll

00:26:06.700 say if someone is

00:26:07.480 biologically male and you

00:26:09.240 call them, you know, she

00:26:10.800 a biologically male, you

00:26:12.380 call them a she. 1.00

00:26:13.060 That's misgendering.

00:26:13.800 That's a conservative view.

00:26:14.880 The progressive view is

00:26:16.720 inverted.

00:26:17.400 So now you actually have in

00:26:19.100 your policies a rule

00:26:21.220 against the conservative

00:26:22.660 perspective.

00:26:23.680 I have a rule against the

00:26:25.020 abuse and harassment of

00:26:26.260 trans people on our

00:26:27.240 platform.

00:26:27.700 Mm hmm.

00:26:29.800 Right.

00:26:30.200 Again, the smuggling

00:26:31.920 smuggling.

00:26:33.420 Right.

00:26:33.960 That's really what she's

00:26:34.900 saying.

00:26:35.220 And there's a report out

00:26:36.400 today from Politico saying

00:26:37.780 that woman, the general 1.00

00:26:39.060 counsel, cried on Monday

00:26:40.900 during a virtual meeting

00:26:42.360 with her team as she

00:26:43.340 expressed concerns about

00:26:44.960 how the company might

00:26:45.960 change under Elon Musk.

00:26:48.480 By the way, she said to be

00:26:49.740 the person behind the

00:26:50.640 suspension of the New York

00:26:51.580 Post account and was

00:26:53.000 pivotal in Trump's ban

00:26:54.040 from Twitter.

00:26:55.000 I mean, this is why you

00:26:55.840 get people like Ben

00:26:56.620 Shapiro saying Elon Musk

00:26:58.080 going to have to go in

00:26:58.740 there and clean house of 0.61

00:26:59.640 people who are not pro

00:27:01.160 free speech.

00:27:01.960 Doesn't matter.

00:27:02.640 Conservative liberal.

00:27:03.660 Are you pro free speech

00:27:05.040 or aren't you?

00:27:05.720 And not the fake kind,

00:27:07.100 the real kind.

00:27:09.600 Well, yeah, they'll say

00:27:10.760 they're pro free speech,

00:27:12.480 but they're just also in

00:27:14.240 favor of of reasonable

00:27:15.600 content moderation.

00:27:16.540 This is just reasonable

00:27:17.760 content moderation, Megan.

00:27:19.320 You know, they're just

00:27:19.800 trying to apply good

00:27:21.760 standards that are that

00:27:22.760 are based in not being

00:27:23.840 abusive and hateful.

00:27:25.440 But yeah, the ideology

00:27:26.240 is smuggled into that.

00:27:27.780 And it's it's not this

00:27:29.120 is not really an issue of

00:27:30.460 of them not having a

00:27:31.840 problem with hate speech.

00:27:32.900 It's that they actually

00:27:33.880 hate speech.

00:27:35.520 They hate the freedom to

00:27:36.500 disagree with them.

00:27:37.280 They want to enforce

00:27:38.100 their ideology.

00:27:39.160 And I think that she's

00:27:40.280 being disingenuous.

00:27:41.180 I think she knows exactly

00:27:42.160 what she's doing.

00:27:43.260 But the crying in the

00:27:44.700 meeting thing, I mean, it

00:27:45.560 just goes back to show

00:27:46.420 you how emotional this is.

00:27:47.660 This is feeling based.

00:27:49.280 It's all based on feelings

00:27:50.640 and we need to have some

00:27:52.360 facts enter into the

00:27:53.380 discussion.

00:27:53.860 We need to let reality

00:27:55.020 drive some of the

00:27:56.260 conversation instead of

00:27:57.300 just feelings.

00:27:59.120 Is it so hard?

00:28:00.340 Is it so heartbreaking for

00:28:02.140 you that a man has taken

00:28:04.040 over the platform?

00:28:05.000 He says he's going to

00:28:05.680 improve it.

00:28:06.180 He's going to make it more

00:28:06.900 profitable for shareholders

00:28:08.420 and its employees who will

00:28:10.780 benefit from that as well.

00:28:12.120 But by making it a truly

00:28:14.040 open forum, by allowing

00:28:15.540 different viewpoints to air.

00:28:17.320 I mean, if that if you

00:28:19.040 have such a deep problem

00:28:20.020 with that, that it brings

00:28:20.600 you to tears, get out,

00:28:22.100 get out, right?

00:28:22.800 You're in the wrong job.

00:28:23.780 Quit.

00:28:24.100 You're a damn lawyer.

00:28:25.180 You go to law school to

00:28:26.340 learn about opposing

00:28:27.600 viewpoints and how to make

00:28:29.000 the better argument.

00:28:29.880 If you can't do that, leave

00:28:32.020 your shitty at your job. 0.71

00:28:34.460 True.

00:28:35.000 And I would also say this,

00:28:36.420 you know, most of this

00:28:37.240 stuff is geared towards

00:28:38.540 safety, right?

00:28:39.500 She mentions abuse and

00:28:41.060 and and threats and

00:28:43.460 things like that.

00:28:44.520 So we have these we're

00:28:46.100 we're supposed to put these

00:28:47.060 policies in place for the

00:28:48.360 safety of the people on

00:28:49.540 the platform.

00:28:50.520 And that's another thing

00:28:51.860 that I would disagree with.

00:28:53.040 You know, I think Tim made

00:28:53.760 some great points there.

00:28:54.680 I mean, I make similar

00:28:55.460 points when I'm when I'm

00:28:56.880 responding on these things.

00:28:57.860 But I think this issue

00:28:59.700 of safety is an important

00:29:00.740 one.

00:29:01.020 You know, you can try to

00:29:02.200 create a safe environment

00:29:03.580 and in doing so

00:29:05.420 actually harm people.

00:29:07.360 And there's great examples

00:29:08.280 of this.

00:29:08.700 I think a really great

00:29:09.420 illustration of it is

00:29:10.720 this study that was done

00:29:12.560 on public playgrounds in

00:29:14.060 New York City that found

00:29:15.120 that the playgrounds had

00:29:15.980 been made too safe for

00:29:17.480 children and it was

00:29:18.540 actually harming the

00:29:19.340 children because it

00:29:19.980 wasn't teaching them

00:29:20.700 about risk.

00:29:21.920 And this is the thing

00:29:22.560 like when you go to

00:29:23.180 college, for example,

00:29:24.160 and they try to tell you

00:29:25.320 that you need to have a

00:29:26.260 safe space when you're

00:29:28.120 in when you're in an

00:29:29.160 environment where you're

00:29:29.840 supposed to be learning,

00:29:30.760 you know, encountering

00:29:31.840 other ideas,

00:29:33.500 encountering debates

00:29:35.120 and and being on the

00:29:36.920 receiving end of

00:29:37.860 criticism, even harsh

00:29:39.000 criticism.

00:29:39.660 Sometimes that's how you

00:29:40.820 build resilience.

00:29:41.540 It's how you build

00:29:42.300 character.

00:29:42.800 You don't want to be

00:29:44.360 in a safe space where

00:29:45.460 you're just insulated

00:29:46.780 from all of that or

00:29:47.560 you're never going to

00:29:48.080 grow as a person.

00:29:49.300 You might never change

00:29:50.060 your views on things

00:29:50.980 where you should change

00:29:51.840 your views.

00:29:52.700 I mean, you're certainly

00:29:53.280 never going to be

00:29:53.800 challenged.

00:29:54.520 So this idea that we

00:29:55.760 need safety and

00:29:56.640 protection, you know,

00:29:57.860 we are adults and

00:29:59.340 freedom of speech is a

00:30:00.580 valuable thing.

00:30:01.840 And I think that it's

00:30:02.580 so condescending to act

00:30:03.860 like we need to protect

00:30:04.760 each other from ideas

00:30:05.860 that might harm us.

00:30:07.420 And instead, we should

00:30:09.020 be trying to protect

00:30:09.820 the freedom itself.

00:30:11.760 Absolutely.

00:30:12.820 All right.

00:30:13.220 So much more to go

00:30:13.880 over, including the

00:30:15.160 Babylon Bee now

00:30:16.380 reportedly hiring,

00:30:18.980 backing, helping the

00:30:20.720 woman behind Libs of 1.00

00:30:22.140 TikTok, who was outed

00:30:24.460 against her will by this

00:30:25.680 Taylor Lorenz, who is

00:30:27.240 again playing the victim.

00:30:29.800 I'll bring you up to

00:30:30.640 date.

00:30:30.900 We'll talk more about it

00:30:31.960 and Elon with Seth in

00:30:33.640 one second.

00:30:34.480 Seth Dillon is staying

00:30:35.180 with us.

00:30:35.500 One note of

00:30:42.320 clarification, not

00:30:43.640 from anything we've

00:30:44.360 reported, but from

00:30:45.440 something that's out

00:30:46.200 there.

00:30:46.880 There is a Twitter

00:30:48.760 executive, the CMO,

00:30:50.780 chief marketing

00:30:51.300 officer named Leslie

00:30:52.480 Burland.

00:30:53.860 And the reason we

00:30:54.920 know what happened at

00:30:55.660 this at this Twitter

00:30:57.940 internal meeting

00:30:58.960 company wide call on

00:31:00.180 Monday is Project

00:31:01.320 Veritas obtained a

00:31:02.440 45 minute recording of

00:31:03.520 it.

00:31:03.660 So people have been

00:31:05.380 reporting on it and

00:31:06.000 that's fine.

00:31:07.180 God bless James O'Keefe

00:31:08.460 because he gets his

00:31:09.060 hands on great stuff.

00:31:10.840 But this woman is 1.00

00:31:13.100 being, I think,

00:31:14.800 unfairly lumped in

00:31:15.980 with the chief legal

00:31:17.420 officer, the general

00:31:18.220 counsel, this Leslie

00:31:19.400 Burland, so far as I

00:31:20.660 can see, didn't do the

00:31:22.480 thing she's being

00:31:23.200 accused of and a lot

00:31:24.240 of websites and so on

00:31:25.560 today.

00:31:26.600 She well, let me put

00:31:28.400 it to this way.

00:31:29.080 This is the soundbite of

00:31:30.360 her that's circulating.

00:31:31.860 OK, listen.

00:31:32.440 Elon made it clear in

00:31:34.320 public that a large

00:31:35.380 part of the reason he

00:31:36.340 bought the platform was

00:31:37.560 because of our

00:31:38.080 moderation policies and

00:31:39.400 disagreements in how

00:31:40.780 we deal with health.

00:31:41.820 This puts Twitter

00:31:42.600 service and trust and

00:31:43.720 safety as well as

00:31:44.800 anybody who cares about

00:31:45.980 health on the platform

00:31:47.040 in a very difficult

00:31:48.260 position.

00:31:50.160 OK, so she's being

00:31:51.280 slammed because she's 0.99

00:31:52.740 saying Elon made it

00:31:53.940 clear the reason he

00:31:55.260 bought it was our he

00:31:56.600 wanted to change our

00:31:57.380 moderation policies.

00:31:58.320 And this puts us in a

00:32:00.240 very difficult position

00:32:01.120 if you if we care about

00:32:02.060 trust and safety.

00:32:03.180 The truth is she didn't

00:32:03.880 say that.

00:32:04.440 The truth is she was

00:32:05.500 repeating the questions

00:32:07.420 that had been asked by

00:32:08.520 the employees.

00:32:09.380 And here is the full

00:32:10.400 soundbite.

00:32:11.540 And back to you,

00:32:12.660 Parag.

00:32:13.580 Elon made it clear in

00:32:14.920 public that a large part

00:32:16.220 of the reason he bought

00:32:17.160 the platform was because

00:32:18.360 of our moderation

00:32:19.100 policies and

00:32:19.980 disagreements in how

00:32:21.380 we deal with health,

00:32:22.880 something that we place

00:32:23.780 in value very highly

00:32:25.020 within the company.

00:32:25.820 This puts Twitter service

00:32:27.740 and trust and safety

00:32:28.720 as well as anybody who

00:32:30.040 cares about health on

00:32:31.080 the platform in a very

00:32:32.620 difficult position.

00:32:34.740 Can you speak your

00:32:35.700 thoughts on this and how

00:32:37.140 those teams will be

00:32:38.520 supported?

00:32:39.840 All right.

00:32:40.420 So I just want to make

00:32:41.300 that clear.

00:32:41.800 She starts it with

00:32:42.600 question back to you,

00:32:43.840 Parag.

00:32:44.120 She's the moderator.

00:32:45.200 She's bringing the

00:32:45.920 Twitter employees

00:32:46.900 questions to the CEO.

00:32:49.960 And she's basically the 0.98

00:32:51.140 one who has to read

00:32:51.900 them.

00:32:52.140 And she went she did

00:32:52.980 clarify that in response

00:32:54.080 to this.

00:32:54.780 But just, you know,

00:32:55.700 we have to make sure

00:32:56.580 forgive me, but like

00:32:58.340 this this general

00:32:59.080 counsel is a problem

00:33:00.740 and should go.

00:33:01.680 But I don't I haven't

00:33:02.760 seen the evidence that

00:33:03.500 the CMO is in the same

00:33:05.280 boat as her. 0.92

00:33:06.420 So I will defend her

00:33:07.420 at least based on what

00:33:09.060 I've heard so far.

00:33:10.560 OK, so let's switch

00:33:13.220 gears because it's

00:33:14.660 sort of related, but

00:33:16.080 it's not totally related

00:33:17.240 to to what we've been

00:33:19.720 discussing.

00:33:20.260 Libs of TikTok got

00:33:21.740 suspended on Twitter

00:33:23.160 as well last week.

00:33:24.560 And it was a very big

00:33:25.220 story.

00:33:26.400 And they they

00:33:29.080 they were the subject

00:33:30.120 of a long piece by

00:33:31.420 Taylor Lorenz, who

00:33:32.780 works for The

00:33:33.260 Washington Post, who

00:33:34.600 decided that they need

00:33:35.880 to be outed, that they

00:33:37.280 are also anti trans and

00:33:39.440 contributing to, quote,

00:33:40.540 hate.

00:33:42.080 And so The Washington

00:33:42.820 Post decides to unleash

00:33:44.100 the Jeff Bezos

00:33:45.020 resources on Libs of

00:33:47.240 TikTok, which is run by

00:33:48.640 somebody who wishes to

00:33:49.440 remain anonymous,

00:33:50.520 this, though she did

00:33:51.380 give an interview

00:33:51.920 while masking her

00:33:54.580 identity to Tucker and

00:33:56.320 at least one other

00:33:56.920 source.

00:33:57.580 Was I don't know.

00:33:58.600 Was it you guys?

00:33:59.140 I can't remember, but

00:33:59.780 at least one other.

00:34:01.820 And any post, I think

00:34:02.980 New York Post, New York

00:34:03.700 Post.

00:34:03.940 There we go.

00:34:05.180 So.

00:34:06.680 The the right wing

00:34:08.100 got very upset with the

00:34:09.300 Taylor Lorenz reporting

00:34:10.640 because it was

00:34:12.200 unnecessary.

00:34:12.720 We didn't really need

00:34:14.500 to know who was behind

00:34:15.460 Libs of TikTok.

00:34:16.740 They don't do this kind

00:34:17.680 of reporting behind for

00:34:18.840 anonymous accounts

00:34:19.940 pushing BLM

00:34:20.900 narratives or trans 1.00

00:34:23.080 narratives.

00:34:23.840 It's just Libs of

00:34:25.640 TikTok, which outs

00:34:26.700 what Libs on TikTok

00:34:28.060 are saying about

00:34:29.040 usually LGBTQ

00:34:30.860 issues.

00:34:32.980 You have stepped in

00:34:34.520 in some way to back

00:34:36.320 the woman who's been

00:34:37.340 outed as the purveyor

00:34:38.520 of Libs of TikTok.

00:34:39.220 What have you done?

00:34:41.940 So, yeah, I mean,

00:34:43.380 this was this is a

00:34:44.420 crazy story because

00:34:45.540 there's all kinds of

00:34:46.920 stuff happening here.

00:34:47.680 You recapped a little

00:34:49.040 bit of it, but Libs of

00:34:50.240 TikTok had been suspended

00:34:51.380 twice on Twitter leading

00:34:52.760 up to this.

00:34:53.340 There were all these

00:34:53.820 mass reportings where

00:34:55.560 basically the account

00:34:56.820 was getting mobbed and

00:34:58.000 they were trying to get

00:34:58.720 it shut down.

00:34:59.520 So you had some

00:35:01.440 Antifa groups that

00:35:03.240 were leading this

00:35:03.900 charge and and

00:35:05.720 they were just piling

00:35:06.460 on and thousands of

00:35:08.060 reports were streaming

00:35:08.840 into Twitter.

00:35:09.940 The safety team that

00:35:11.500 she was just talking

00:35:12.280 about, you know, for

00:35:13.220 for reports of

00:35:14.660 harassment and abuse

00:35:16.140 and the account

00:35:17.320 was kept getting

00:35:17.920 locked.

00:35:18.380 So it got locked a

00:35:19.080 couple of times in a

00:35:19.760 row.

00:35:21.520 They required that a

00:35:22.860 couple of tweets be

00:35:23.580 deleted in order for the

00:35:24.520 account to be unlocked.

00:35:26.020 So that was kind of

00:35:27.140 leading up to this whole

00:35:28.100 thing where there was

00:35:28.800 this doxing story that

00:35:30.200 was put out by Taylor

00:35:31.020 Lorenz, which, you

00:35:33.100 know, was the goal of

00:35:34.420 that was to expose who

00:35:35.680 this person behind Libs of

00:35:36.900 TikTok was.

00:35:38.280 And it's very funny when

00:35:39.060 you hear the interviews

00:35:39.840 that Taylor gives about

00:35:41.360 this.

00:35:41.640 You know, on the one

00:35:42.360 hand, she tries to say,

00:35:43.920 oh, we didn't expose any

00:35:45.020 information.

00:35:45.520 We didn't we didn't

00:35:46.560 reveal this person's

00:35:47.660 identity.

00:35:48.300 But then on the other

00:35:49.520 hand, a moment later,

00:35:51.720 she talks about how it

00:35:53.100 was important for us to

00:35:53.980 determine whether or not

00:35:54.700 this was a foreign actor

00:35:55.700 and reveal who this

00:35:56.600 person was.

00:35:57.280 So which is it?

00:35:58.000 Was she revealing the

00:35:58.780 person or not?

00:35:59.920 Let me play that.

00:36:00.680 OK, just pause your story

00:36:02.080 right there because we

00:36:03.000 have that on tape.

00:36:03.820 I mean, it's it's crazy

00:36:04.820 how often the left now

00:36:05.740 goes to foreign actor.

00:36:07.020 It was the Russians. 0.92

00:36:07.740 It was somebody foreign. 0.76

00:36:08.740 That's why I had to do

00:36:09.380 the reporting.

00:36:10.160 We had to know if it was

00:36:10.860 Vladimir Putin.

00:36:11.780 Here's soundbite five.

00:36:14.180 I think it's rare to see

00:36:15.940 an account gain so much

00:36:17.840 prominence so quickly and

00:36:19.560 be shaping these

00:36:20.480 narratives in such an

00:36:21.760 effective way, especially

00:36:22.600 against trans people. 0.95

00:36:24.320 So I was I mean, my story

00:36:25.800 was kind of long, but I

00:36:26.700 really wanted to make the

00:36:27.660 case like why this

00:36:28.680 account mattered.

00:36:29.740 And I think it's

00:36:30.180 incredibly important, you

00:36:31.500 know, as someone that

00:36:32.200 covers the influence or

00:36:33.260 industry to know who is

00:36:35.140 exerting influence in

00:36:36.740 this way.

00:36:37.360 I mean, for all we knew,

00:36:38.120 this could have been a

00:36:38.740 foreign actor, right, or

00:36:39.940 someone we just didn't

00:36:41.440 know.

00:36:42.400 Oh, my God.

00:36:43.760 Keep going.

00:36:44.320 That's not.

00:36:44.660 No, we need to know.

00:36:47.400 So, you know, she felt

00:36:48.900 she's got moral reasons for 1.00

00:36:51.180 why she needs to expose 1.00

00:36:52.120 this person.

00:36:52.720 And it comes on the heels

00:36:54.360 of her literally just

00:36:55.540 weeks ago, weeping in

00:36:57.820 an interview and saying

00:36:59.260 that she had personal

00:37:00.580 information exposed and

00:37:01.720 how horrifying this was

00:37:02.760 and how traumatizing it was

00:37:03.940 for her personally to have

00:37:05.380 somebody, you know,

00:37:06.380 putting information out

00:37:07.480 there that she didn't want

00:37:08.500 out there.

00:37:09.240 But that's literally what

00:37:10.480 she does professionally.

00:37:11.660 And so the hypocrisy there

00:37:13.380 is just absolutely stunning.

00:37:14.960 It's breathtaking.

00:37:15.960 But but, you know, I saw

00:37:17.760 this as an opportunity.

00:37:19.260 You know, lives of tick

00:37:20.000 talk is a very impactful

00:37:21.140 account.

00:37:21.860 And I think the work that

00:37:23.200 they're doing is actually

00:37:24.040 very important because what

00:37:25.360 they're doing is they're

00:37:26.140 bringing to light a lot of

00:37:27.520 these things.

00:37:28.640 A lot of these videos are

00:37:30.100 videos of teachers

00:37:31.220 admitting what they're

00:37:32.840 talking to their students

00:37:33.940 about.

00:37:34.420 And sometimes they're

00:37:35.200 kindergarten teachers, you

00:37:36.480 know, and they're talking

00:37:37.100 to their kids about issues

00:37:38.380 related to sex and gender

00:37:39.820 and things like this.

00:37:40.720 So the kind of stuff that

00:37:42.260 DeSantis is dealing with

00:37:43.280 here in Florida, we're

00:37:44.260 based out of Florida here.

00:37:45.460 You know, these are the

00:37:47.020 types of things that that

00:37:48.160 lives of tick tock is

00:37:49.000 bringing to the surface.

00:37:49.920 And and by the way, this

00:37:51.440 isn't like these aren't

00:37:52.440 private videos that are

00:37:53.580 being leaked.

00:37:54.320 These are publicly posted

00:37:55.680 videos on social media

00:37:57.200 that are just having a

00:37:58.400 light shown on them and

00:37:59.580 being amplified.

00:38:00.820 And I think that's an

00:38:01.760 important point to make

00:38:02.600 too.

00:38:03.400 But but I think it's

00:38:04.620 important that we see

00:38:05.460 what's going on.

00:38:06.260 And I think lives of

00:38:07.440 tick tock is doing

00:38:08.160 something really important

00:38:09.300 and significant.

00:38:11.740 And so, you know, I

00:38:12.960 worked out a deal with

00:38:13.820 her where she can 1.00

00:38:14.680 continue to do this, even

00:38:15.780 if they try to cancel

00:38:16.580 her.

00:38:16.900 The whole point is they

00:38:18.300 can try to cancel her,

00:38:19.420 but I'm not going to

00:38:20.080 fire her for doing this 1.00

00:38:21.100 job.

00:38:21.800 So she works for me now. 1.00

00:38:23.220 We have we've worked

00:38:23.900 out an arrangement.

00:38:24.580 It's not a deal between

00:38:25.460 the Babylon Bee and her,

00:38:27.240 but we've worked out a

00:38:28.740 deal where she can

00:38:29.460 actually run this

00:38:30.160 account, get paid a

00:38:32.180 salary to do it, and

00:38:33.500 we're going to turn it

00:38:34.060 into a media company.

00:38:35.480 That's amazing.

00:38:36.620 I love that.

00:38:37.880 Good for you.

00:38:38.560 You you were her Elon

00:38:40.000 Musk.

00:38:41.840 He was on a much

00:38:43.160 smaller scale.

00:38:43.920 You were hers with

00:38:45.720 there's a there's an

00:38:46.800 update to the story, which

00:38:47.860 I kind of love.

00:38:49.460 I have to say, speaking

00:38:50.380 of Tim Poole, he

00:38:52.220 decided to take out a

00:38:54.200 billboard in Times

00:38:55.580 Square, calling her out

00:38:57.300 on some of her nonsense.

00:38:58.980 Our pal Jeremy Boring of

00:39:00.000 The Daily Wire helped

00:39:00.900 and it's in Times

00:39:03.640 Square right now, I

00:39:04.660 think.

00:39:05.300 Right.

00:39:05.480 It's in Times Square

00:39:05.980 right now.

00:39:07.000 And it basically says

00:39:08.200 Taylor.

00:39:08.800 I guess we'll show

00:39:11.680 and say it'll it'll come

00:39:12.540 up, but it said that she

00:39:13.800 doxed libs of

00:39:15.620 Taylor Lorenz doxed

00:39:17.140 the libs of

00:39:18.080 of TikTok at

00:39:19.820 Tim Cast.

00:39:20.500 Hey, Wapo. 0.96

00:39:21.080 There it is.

00:39:21.520 OK.

00:39:21.680 Hey, Wapo. 0.96

00:39:22.440 Democracy dies in

00:39:23.280 darkness.

00:39:24.040 Taylor Lorenz doxed

00:39:25.680 libs of TikTok, which

00:39:27.600 they totally did.

00:39:28.640 And then she comes back

00:39:30.020 and once again, oh,

00:39:31.900 my God, she this woman

00:39:33.100 never misses a chance

00:39:35.380 to play the victim.

00:39:37.120 She she comes out 0.91

00:39:39.700 and says, oh, Tim

00:39:40.620 Poole and the CEO of

00:39:41.800 The Daily Wire did

00:39:42.520 this in an attempt to

00:39:43.820 discredit my reporting.

00:39:45.820 OK, so no.

00:39:47.340 Right.

00:39:47.680 No, they were really

00:39:48.620 just doing what you

00:39:49.860 just did, pointing her

00:39:50.760 out as a hypocrite.

00:39:52.000 She's out there crying

00:39:52.780 about getting doxed

00:39:53.560 and she's a doxer. 1.00

00:39:55.040 She says this billboard. 0.81

00:39:56.260 So it's undeniably

00:39:57.540 so idiotic.

00:39:58.420 It's hilarious.

00:39:58.940 But don't forget that

00:39:59.900 these campaigns have a

00:40:00.880 much darker and more

00:40:01.880 violent side.

00:40:03.300 OK, I await your

00:40:05.020 update on how your

00:40:06.560 life became violent

00:40:07.720 as a result of this.

00:40:09.000 She never provides

00:40:09.660 an example, blah, blah,

00:40:11.580 but I'm grateful to be

00:40:12.180 in a newsroom, recognizes

00:40:13.300 these bad faith,

00:40:14.200 politically motivated

00:40:14.960 attacks and has a

00:40:15.720 strong security team.

00:40:16.880 I'll bet you she's got 0.99

00:40:17.540 twenty five security

00:40:18.400 officers around her

00:40:19.340 right now with her

00:40:19.940 fake claims of the

00:40:21.520 violence.

00:40:22.540 So Tim Poole responds

00:40:23.380 by saying, I'm not

00:40:24.740 just I'm not

00:40:25.540 discrediting your

00:40:26.160 reporting.

00:40:26.600 I've repeatedly said

00:40:27.280 it was justified and

00:40:28.220 that publishing a name

00:40:29.440 is something we can

00:40:30.520 argue on the merits.

00:40:31.860 I'm calling you out

00:40:32.500 for lying when you

00:40:34.020 and The Washington

00:40:34.580 Post denied linking

00:40:35.860 to private details.

00:40:37.360 You published

00:40:38.160 lives of TikTok's

00:40:39.520 private address.

00:40:41.420 Just own it.

00:40:42.720 He goes on to say,

00:40:43.280 I'm glad to hear you're

00:40:44.120 you are not upset and

00:40:45.780 your friends and fans

00:40:46.540 are also happy.

00:40:47.260 It's the way it should

00:40:47.980 be.

00:40:48.520 You make a statement.

00:40:49.320 I contest it.

00:40:50.120 All of our points are

00:40:50.800 heard.

00:40:51.700 You on CNN, me and

00:40:53.040 Times Square.

00:40:53.780 Now move on.

00:40:55.260 Here she is.

00:40:56.740 My family and friends

00:40:58.060 are not happy.

00:40:59.860 They have been subject

00:41:00.780 to a nonstop stream

00:41:02.840 of hateful attacks,

00:41:04.620 doxing.

00:41:05.360 There she goes again

00:41:06.040 and ready.

00:41:08.220 Wait for it.

00:41:09.680 Violent attacks.

00:41:11.520 Name one challenge.

00:41:14.160 I call bullshit that

00:41:15.420 what violent attacks

00:41:16.560 you.

00:41:17.340 You don't think Taylor

00:41:18.100 Lorenz would have run

00:41:19.100 to the airways to

00:41:20.180 inform us all.

00:41:21.740 if a violent attack

00:41:23.240 had happened against

00:41:23.960 her friends or family

00:41:24.960 as a result of

00:41:25.960 something she wrote.

00:41:27.000 Bull.

00:41:27.880 Happy to hear that

00:41:28.840 you're moving on and

00:41:29.740 on it goes.

00:41:30.360 I just and with no

00:41:31.920 compassion or even

00:41:34.040 acknowledgement of the

00:41:36.080 fact that she just did

00:41:37.440 all of that same stuff

00:41:38.880 minus her fake violent

00:41:40.840 attacks claim to lives

00:41:42.400 of TikTok.

00:41:44.700 Yeah, it's like I said,

00:41:46.640 it's breathtaking.

00:41:47.700 I love how you read that,

00:41:48.800 by the way.

00:41:49.160 The dramatic reading is

00:41:50.060 great.

00:41:50.660 Thank you.

00:41:51.440 I mean, I wish you had

00:41:53.260 the clip of her sobbing

00:41:54.360 on TV.

00:41:55.200 I do.

00:41:55.900 Standby.

00:41:56.460 We never come to air

00:41:57.220 without it.

00:41:57.740 It's soundbite six.

00:41:59.040 I've had to remove

00:41:59.900 every single social tie.

00:42:02.340 I had severe PTSD

00:42:03.860 from this.

00:42:04.580 I contemplated suicide.

00:42:06.080 It got really bad.

00:42:07.780 You feel like any

00:42:08.640 little piece of

00:42:09.560 information that gets

00:42:11.760 out on you will be used

00:42:12.960 by the worst people on

00:42:14.140 the Internet to destroy

00:42:15.180 your life.

00:42:16.100 And it's so isolating

00:42:18.480 and terrifying.

00:42:20.900 It's horrifying.

00:42:24.140 I'm so sorry.

00:42:26.060 It's overwhelming.

00:42:27.500 It's really hard.

00:42:29.980 I'm sorry.

00:42:31.000 No, no, I know.

00:42:33.780 It's one thing, you know,

00:42:35.360 if she wasn't actually

00:42:36.360 doing this to other

00:42:37.140 people and she felt that

00:42:38.160 way, you could really

00:42:38.860 feel sorry for her.

00:42:39.880 But but the fact that the

00:42:41.220 reason that people come

00:42:42.480 after her is because she 0.80

00:42:43.540 comes after them.

00:42:44.540 You know, it's just it's

00:42:45.840 just insane that she's 1.00

00:42:47.420 that she tries to play

00:42:48.540 the victim like this.

00:42:49.420 But, you know, this is a

00:42:50.600 this is the point that I

00:42:51.600 made when I publicly

00:42:52.660 stated that I had worked

00:42:54.140 out an arrangement with

00:42:55.280 with the creator of

00:42:56.720 Libs of TikTok.

00:42:58.300 The effort to dox her

00:43:00.360 was not about journalism.

00:43:01.980 This wasn't about telling

00:43:03.300 a story that needed to be

00:43:04.540 told that was of great

00:43:05.480 public interest.

00:43:06.580 This was about trying to

00:43:07.700 intimidate and harass

00:43:08.960 this girl so that she

00:43:10.360 would be so afraid it

00:43:11.860 would raise the cost of

00:43:13.180 her doing her job to

00:43:14.240 the point where it

00:43:14.940 would become too

00:43:16.800 terrifying and risky to

00:43:18.060 do it.

00:43:19.040 And what I wanted to do

00:43:20.180 was step in and give her

00:43:21.240 the assurance that she

00:43:22.040 could continue to do

00:43:22.880 this.

00:43:23.120 We'll provide her

00:43:23.700 security if we have to

00:43:24.820 so that she can continue

00:43:26.020 to do what she's doing

00:43:27.000 and not have to have

00:43:28.080 those worries.

00:43:29.080 But that was the point

00:43:29.900 of this piece.

00:43:30.560 It was to make her feel

00:43:31.620 the way Taylor was just

00:43:32.660 saying she feels it was

00:43:34.000 to make her feel

00:43:34.760 terrified, horrified

00:43:36.540 and crawl back into a

00:43:38.180 hole and hide and stop

00:43:39.360 doing what she's doing

00:43:40.300 because it's so

00:43:41.280 effective.

00:43:41.700 I don't need

00:43:44.620 identifying information

00:43:46.040 on Libs of TikTok's

00:43:47.360 creator.

00:43:48.420 I know she's a woman.

00:43:49.340 I mean, I read her name.

00:43:50.280 Of course, we haven't

00:43:50.860 repeated it on this show.

00:43:51.760 But how old is she?

00:43:52.980 Like about what age range

00:43:54.140 is she?

00:43:55.140 She's in her 20s.

00:43:56.540 Oh, so she's young.

00:43:57.620 Right.

00:43:57.920 Of course, she's got

00:43:58.820 reason to be afraid

00:44:00.860 that there will be

00:44:01.980 penalties.

00:44:02.480 And she was, as I

00:44:03.800 understand it, from

00:44:04.860 Brooklyn.

00:44:05.400 It's like, OK, so nobody

00:44:06.980 in Brooklyn agrees with

00:44:07.860 her.

00:44:08.160 So there's a reason why

00:44:09.560 she's afraid to share

00:44:10.840 her identity because

00:44:12.080 the Taylor Lorenz's of

00:44:13.540 the world have made

00:44:14.580 her opinions not

00:44:16.820 acceptable.

00:44:17.380 Right.

00:44:17.820 Like her pushback on 0.99

00:44:18.960 some of these narratives

00:44:19.600 and some of them are

00:44:20.380 insane that she posts 0.99

00:44:22.620 on her Twitter.

00:44:24.640 Any pushback?

00:44:25.760 Unacceptable.

00:44:26.500 You're in the same boat,

00:44:28.100 except thankfully you have

00:44:29.360 some job security and

00:44:30.380 some, you know, now

00:44:31.460 powerful friends.

00:44:32.880 And she didn't when

00:44:34.960 when Taylor took a shot

00:44:36.480 at her, when Jeff Bezos

00:44:37.380 basically took a shot

00:44:38.360 at her.

00:44:39.820 Yeah.

00:44:40.460 And I they knew that.

00:44:41.880 And so I think that

00:44:42.640 that was the goal of the

00:44:43.560 piece originally was just

00:44:44.740 to get her to basically

00:44:46.160 feel so afraid that she

00:44:47.420 would stop doing what

00:44:48.200 she's doing.

00:44:49.180 And she's she's very

00:44:50.680 bold.

00:44:51.040 I mean, was she afraid?

00:44:53.000 Absolutely.

00:44:54.000 At the same time, you

00:44:55.260 know, she hasn't really

00:44:56.140 been deterred.

00:44:57.540 You know, she's if

00:44:59.020 anything, she does

00:44:59.840 realize that this means

00:45:01.000 that the work that she's

00:45:01.860 doing is effective.

00:45:02.620 And so her her

00:45:05.020 strong desire to keep

00:45:07.020 going, I think,

00:45:08.300 represents a boldness

00:45:10.100 and courage there.

00:45:11.180 I think she's she's

00:45:11.980 actually very courageous,

00:45:12.960 even though she is

00:45:13.940 obviously reasonably

00:45:16.020 scared of the threats

00:45:17.920 that are posed to her

00:45:18.720 now at this point.

00:45:19.360 I mean, she gets death 0.95

00:45:20.080 threats every single

00:45:20.820 day in her inbox.

00:45:21.900 It's really nasty

00:45:22.640 what's coming at her.

00:45:24.260 But, you know, this

00:45:25.680 is it's a part of it's

00:45:26.820 innate.

00:45:27.160 It's part of what you

00:45:28.080 do here.

00:45:28.540 And Taylor, if she's

00:45:29.680 going to be out there

00:45:30.380 doing this kind of work,

00:45:31.420 doxing people like her,

00:45:32.620 then she should expect

00:45:33.460 this kind of a response.

00:45:35.000 She shouldn't be crying

00:45:35.820 about it on TV and

00:45:37.060 acting like, you know,

00:45:37.980 she's she's on the

00:45:39.240 receiving end of some

00:45:40.080 great injustice.

00:45:41.300 Yeah.

00:45:41.540 Like out of nowhere.

00:45:42.800 It's so hard to determine

00:45:43.980 why this happened to me.

00:45:45.500 As I understand it,

00:45:46.380 lives of tick tock went

00:45:47.220 from like 700000 followers

00:45:49.100 on Twitter to over a

00:45:50.160 million now.

00:45:51.120 So Taylor's little

00:45:52.180 campaign didn't work.

00:45:54.160 And of course, her her

00:45:55.480 lie about it could be a

00:45:57.040 foreign actor.

00:45:57.560 And that's why I needed

00:45:58.280 to unearth.

00:45:58.860 This is exposed

00:46:00.060 because she clearly 0.85

00:46:01.060 found out who it was

00:46:02.080 and knew it wasn't a

00:46:03.720 Russian or a foreign 0.92

00:46:04.680 actor and went ahead with

00:46:06.160 her little doxing campaign

00:46:07.220 anyway.

00:46:08.180 And Tim Pool is right.

00:46:09.660 Then they lied about it.

00:46:10.500 The Washington Post itself

00:46:11.980 in writing lied

00:46:14.000 and said that we didn't

00:46:15.400 reveal any personal

00:46:16.240 information.

00:46:16.720 And they very much did.

00:46:18.020 They linked to her home

00:46:19.080 address and didn't have

00:46:20.920 the balls to just own it.

00:46:22.540 They lied on paper.

00:46:23.820 So this is not the paper

00:46:25.060 of record.

00:46:25.500 This is not democracy

00:46:26.760 dies in darkness.

00:46:27.840 This has become a partisan

00:46:28.960 hack rag run by a guy

00:46:30.860 with a political agenda.

00:46:32.320 And we should be pushing

00:46:33.520 back publicly as much as

00:46:34.540 possible.

00:46:34.700 And we can be mad about it

00:46:35.820 and we should we should be

00:46:36.760 upset about the way that

00:46:37.680 they handled it.

00:46:38.300 But it is true that they

00:46:40.320 amplified the voice that

00:46:41.580 they were trying to silence.

00:46:42.780 And her platform is way

00:46:44.460 bigger now than it was

00:46:45.600 before they started all of

00:46:46.820 this.

00:46:47.040 And we have Taylor Lorenz

00:46:48.040 to thank for that.

00:46:48.720 So thank you, Taylor Lorenz,

00:46:50.040 if you're watching and

00:46:50.740 listening.

00:46:51.680 You're violent.

00:46:53.600 There you go with more of

00:46:54.820 your violence.

00:46:55.900 Seth, thanks for fighting

00:46:57.620 the good fight.

00:46:59.300 Thank you.

00:47:00.240 It's a pleasure.

00:47:01.440 Coming up, a different

00:47:02.340 take on the Elon Musk

00:47:03.340 Twitter news from Peter

00:47:05.020 Schiff, who predicted this

00:47:06.980 was all bluster and that it

00:47:09.360 would not happen back on our

00:47:11.300 show two weeks ago.

00:47:12.320 Well, we said, why don't you

00:47:13.480 come back on so we can ask

00:47:14.780 you all the tough questions?

00:47:15.920 And to his credit, he said,

00:47:17.160 I'll do it.

00:47:18.380 What does he say now?

00:47:19.220 That's next.

00:47:24.360 Peter Schiff, chief economist

00:47:26.420 and global strategist at

00:47:27.700 Euro Pacific Capital, is back

00:47:29.000 with us today to talk about

00:47:30.880 Elon Musk, the predictions

00:47:32.980 that Peter got right and

00:47:34.920 those he got wrong.

00:47:36.640 Two weeks ago, Peter was on

00:47:38.660 this show and said the

00:47:40.420 following.

00:47:41.300 I don't think Elon Musk has

00:47:42.780 any intention of buying

00:47:43.980 Twitter.

00:47:44.660 I don't think he has the

00:47:46.120 ability, the liquidity to

00:47:47.880 finance such a large

00:47:48.940 purchase.

00:47:49.360 So I think he's just having

00:47:51.240 fun.

00:47:52.820 Aha.

00:47:53.180 Well, Peter Schiff is back

00:47:55.360 with us today to talk about

00:47:56.540 that prediction and also

00:47:57.980 whether Musk buying Twitter

00:47:59.220 is going to be a net benefit

00:48:01.900 for all of the investors in

00:48:04.360 his companies like those who

00:48:06.040 have bought Tesla.

00:48:07.200 Welcome back, Peter.

00:48:07.940 Good to have you.

00:48:08.960 Oh, thanks for having me back,

00:48:10.120 Megan.

00:48:10.820 OK, so that was not correct.

00:48:12.960 How'd you get it wrong?

00:48:14.100 Well, I guess I overestimated

00:48:15.620 Musk's intelligence.

00:48:17.840 I mean, he's obviously a smart

00:48:18.820 guy, but he's not that smart.

00:48:21.140 And sometimes smart people

00:48:22.400 do foolish things.

00:48:23.440 And I think buying Twitter

00:48:25.840 is going to end up being

00:48:27.060 probably the most foolish

00:48:28.160 thing Musk did if it in

00:48:30.060 fact happens.

00:48:30.720 I mean, if you look at where

00:48:31.620 the price of Twitter is

00:48:32.740 trading, the market is

00:48:34.340 obviously assigning a very

00:48:36.100 large probability to the

00:48:37.780 deal not going through.

00:48:39.280 So it's still not a

00:48:40.960 certainty that it's going to

00:48:42.240 be done.

00:48:43.580 And I think, you know, for

00:48:45.280 Musk and probably for Tesla

00:48:47.000 shareholders, I would be

00:48:48.760 hoping that it doesn't get

00:48:49.760 done.

00:48:50.100 I think if you own Twitter,

00:48:51.300 it's a great deal because

00:48:52.660 Elon Musk is getting you out

00:48:54.460 of jail.

00:48:55.060 He's overpaying for Twitter

00:48:56.920 and Twitter is going to

00:48:58.440 probably lose a lot of money

00:48:59.760 while Musk owns it.

00:49:01.560 But the bigger problem and

00:49:03.080 why I thought that Musk

00:49:04.440 wouldn't do it is I didn't

00:49:06.400 think, A, he would want to

00:49:07.660 sell his Tesla shares in

00:49:10.240 order to buy Twitter.

00:49:12.760 But I think more importantly,

00:49:13.800 I didn't think he would want

00:49:14.960 to pledge his Tesla shares

00:49:17.040 as collateral for a loan to

00:49:19.800 buy Twitter, which is what

00:49:20.840 he's doing, because, you

00:49:23.180 know, who's to say that

00:49:24.520 Tesla can't do what 0.98

00:49:26.000 Netflix did?

00:49:26.840 I mean, Netflix is now down

00:49:28.040 70 percent from where it was

00:49:29.680 a few months ago, and there's

00:49:31.240 no bottom in sight for that

00:49:32.700 stock.

00:49:33.500 The same thing could happen

00:49:34.780 to Tesla.

00:49:36.280 Tesla's stock prices is way in

00:49:39.240 the stratosphere compared to

00:49:40.540 its actual earnings, its

00:49:42.920 valuation.

00:49:43.480 And there's nothing that

00:49:44.880 would prevent the stock from

00:49:46.100 dropping 70 percent or more.

00:49:48.240 But if that were to happen,

00:49:49.560 he would be forced to sell

00:49:51.100 those shares into a very

00:49:52.360 weak market in order to

00:49:53.940 repay the lender.

00:49:56.080 And who knows where that

00:49:57.060 share where that transaction

00:49:58.300 would be priced.

00:49:59.380 It would probably have to

00:50:00.260 happen at a significant

00:50:01.340 discount to the market.

00:50:03.020 And I think that's why you

00:50:04.340 saw Twitter stock down

00:50:06.040 11, 12 percent yesterday.

00:50:07.700 And it was down 2 percent

00:50:09.180 the day of the announcement.

00:50:10.360 But people are starting to

00:50:12.260 think about this

00:50:13.260 possibility.

00:50:13.820 And I think it's like

00:50:15.440 waving a flag at a bull or

00:50:17.620 in this case, a bear when it

00:50:19.040 comes to the shorts for

00:50:20.260 Twitter.

00:50:20.760 I think this is a gift.

00:50:22.180 They smell blood.

00:50:23.000 And I would expect the

00:50:24.640 shorts to be piling into

00:50:25.740 that stock because they know

00:50:26.880 if they can push the price

00:50:28.000 down low enough, they're

00:50:29.380 going to flush out Musk and

00:50:30.840 they'll be able to cover their

00:50:31.880 shorts at a much lower

00:50:33.280 price.

00:50:34.580 I think I understood what

00:50:35.440 you're saying.

00:50:36.640 I was hanging on there by a

00:50:38.600 thread, but you're

00:50:39.160 basically saying he's

00:50:39.940 overpaying and that if he

00:50:42.420 has to actually dip into

00:50:43.820 like sell some of his

00:50:44.660 Tesla shares, that's a very

00:50:46.700 bad thing for Tesla for him

00:50:49.420 and and that since the value

00:50:51.440 isn't in Twitter, it's smart

00:50:53.100 to short this purchase.

00:50:54.100 It's to bet that it's not

00:50:55.200 going to work out, but it's

00:50:56.140 not worth what it's trading

00:50:57.080 for right now.

00:50:57.640 I don't know if if the

00:50:58.900 purchase is going to work

00:50:59.800 out.

00:51:00.060 If you think it is going to

00:51:00.880 work out, I think Twitter is

00:51:02.060 trading at about 48 and the

00:51:03.820 deal price is 54 and change.

00:51:06.100 So you make some good money

00:51:07.800 if you buy it now and it

00:51:09.960 goes through.

00:51:10.640 But if it doesn't go

00:51:11.400 through, then the question

00:51:12.520 is, what happens to the

00:51:13.580 price of Twitter stock?

00:51:14.780 It's probably going to end

00:51:15.620 up being a lot lower.

00:51:16.860 But my point is that the

00:51:18.660 real risk is for Tesla.

00:51:20.900 But, you know, I think if

00:51:22.680 if Musk were to sell some

00:51:24.280 Tesla stock now to buy

00:51:26.120 Twitter, that's not that bad

00:51:27.760 because Tesla is overvalued.

00:51:29.360 And so is Twitter.

00:51:30.580 The risk is that he doesn't

00:51:32.080 sell his Tesla.

00:51:33.540 He borrows money and pledges

00:51:35.600 the shares because then he

00:51:37.400 could end up selling the

00:51:38.460 shares at a much lower

00:51:39.660 price than the price he

00:51:41.180 would get if he sold it

00:51:42.100 right now, because he would

00:51:43.140 be selling under a

00:51:44.480 distressed circumstance

00:51:45.460 where the price was

00:51:46.920 significantly lower than the

00:51:48.360 price he could get if he

00:51:49.220 sold stock now.

00:51:50.860 All right.

00:51:51.480 The word that's coming to

00:51:52.700 mind is buzzkill.

00:51:54.620 You're a buzzkill.

00:51:56.200 Come on.

00:51:56.700 We're excited about this

00:51:57.700 because we want him to

00:51:59.320 take over Twitter to

00:52:00.160 restore some semblance of

00:52:01.720 balance in the big tech

00:52:03.120 information wars.

00:52:04.040 Yeah, Megan, I'm not

00:52:05.600 against him owning Twitter.

00:52:07.140 I mean, I use Twitter

00:52:08.120 myself.

00:52:08.740 I've got almost 700,000

00:52:11.060 followers.

00:52:11.640 And, you know, I agree with

00:52:13.460 a lot of what Musk is

00:52:14.960 saying.

00:52:15.440 I mean, I would like the

00:52:16.400 forum to be more open.

00:52:17.800 I don't like it being

00:52:18.720 policed by, you know,

00:52:20.960 the socially collect,

00:52:22.960 you know, correct

00:52:23.780 employees, the woke people

00:52:26.560 who are working at

00:52:27.920 Twitter.

00:52:28.160 I would much rather have a

00:52:29.420 guy like Musk own it

00:52:31.080 than current management.

00:52:32.880 So I'm not objecting to

00:52:34.320 this as somebody who

00:52:35.820 uses Twitter.

00:52:36.880 I think it's good for

00:52:38.120 the user experience.

00:52:39.940 I'm just talking about it

00:52:41.180 as a financial analyst.

00:52:43.080 Is it a wise transaction

00:52:44.820 for Musk?

00:52:45.960 And what are the

00:52:46.840 implications for Tesla

00:52:48.940 shareholders?

00:52:49.620 I mean, I think it's great

00:52:50.460 for Twitter shareholders.

00:52:51.580 They get a bunch of cash

00:52:52.740 and they can invest it

00:52:53.580 someplace else.

00:52:54.520 I think it's a risk for

00:52:56.120 Tesla shareholders.

00:52:57.020 And I think it's a risk

00:52:58.280 for Elon Musk himself

00:52:59.600 as the largest Tesla

00:53:01.460 shareholder.

00:53:01.980 I think he's putting

00:53:02.960 a good portion of his

00:53:04.540 fortune in jeopardy.

00:53:05.680 Now, I don't think,

00:53:06.780 you know, he's not going

00:53:07.420 to go bankrupt.

00:53:08.220 He's not going to be,

00:53:09.040 you know, poor.

00:53:10.100 I mean, he's, you know,

00:53:10.840 he could lose 100 billion

00:53:12.920 dollars or more

00:53:14.220 and still be very rich.

00:53:15.460 So I'm not worried

00:53:16.860 about Elon Musk.

00:53:17.980 He has more money

00:53:18.760 than he could ever spend.

00:53:20.140 But a lot of the people

00:53:21.280 who own his stock,

00:53:22.920 they may have very large

00:53:25.080 positions relative

00:53:26.460 to their net worths.

00:53:28.140 Those people should be selling. 0.56

00:53:29.500 I mean, they they are exposed

00:53:31.060 to significant risk.

00:53:32.280 I mean, Tesla was overpriced

00:53:33.540 to begin with.

00:53:34.480 But now this is another factor

00:53:35.960 that could significantly

00:53:37.320 weigh on the share price.

00:53:39.220 So we'll get we'll get

00:53:40.160 into the connection

00:53:40.800 between what happens

00:53:41.560 with the Tesla stock

00:53:43.860 and the Twitter stock

00:53:45.820 in one second.

00:53:47.040 But don't you think

00:53:48.600 that Elon Musk

00:53:49.840 actually can find efficiencies

00:53:51.700 that were not being pursued

00:53:53.340 by the current management

00:53:54.500 and that he will

00:53:55.980 make Twitter better?

00:53:56.800 I mean, he has a reputation

00:53:57.560 of doing that at companies.

00:53:58.940 It's it's I realize now

00:54:00.560 he's got three massive

00:54:01.460 companies to run,

00:54:02.420 so he's not going to be

00:54:03.640 all that available.

00:54:04.700 But he's got a pretty

00:54:05.800 good track record of choosing

00:54:08.100 the right companies

00:54:08.780 and making them work.

00:54:10.240 Oh, you know, I'm not saying

00:54:11.620 he can't make Twitter better.

00:54:14.140 I mean, maybe he could make Twitter

00:54:15.620 a more profitable business

00:54:18.160 than it is now.

00:54:19.100 Now, will he make it

00:54:20.120 profitable enough

00:54:21.100 so it'll be worth

00:54:22.180 the forty four billion

00:54:23.260 that he's paying for it?

00:54:24.880 I have no idea.

00:54:25.640 But my only point

00:54:27.640 is that that's irrelevant

00:54:29.460 to Tesla.

00:54:31.700 Tesla stock.

00:54:32.500 So you're saying, OK,

00:54:33.200 wait, before we get to that,

00:54:34.040 because we're going to do

00:54:34.560 we're going to dumb it down.

00:54:35.760 So you're not saying

00:54:36.880 that he's not going to improve

00:54:38.040 it and find efficiencies

00:54:38.960 and make the company

00:54:39.720 more valuable.

00:54:40.420 You're not saying

00:54:41.220 he can't do that.

00:54:42.020 You're saying

00:54:42.480 your concerns are about

00:54:44.700 the financing of this deal

00:54:46.020 and I mean, I think

00:54:47.780 how it could how it could

00:54:48.600 drive down the Twitter value

00:54:49.940 right right from the start.

00:54:51.280 OK, is that correct?

00:54:52.400 Well, the Twitter value.

00:54:53.220 No, the Twitter value

00:54:54.000 is irrelevant to anybody

00:54:55.100 but Elon Musk

00:54:55.940 and his partners

00:54:56.540 because the current shareholders

00:54:57.780 are going to be gone, right?

00:54:59.120 They're going to get

00:54:59.720 cashed out of the deal

00:55:01.040 and they and they walk away.

00:55:03.520 Now, can Elon Musk

00:55:04.900 make Twitter

00:55:05.840 a more valuable company

00:55:07.320 than it is today?

00:55:08.580 Probably.

00:55:09.540 But can he make it

00:55:10.340 valuable enough

00:55:11.140 to be worth

00:55:11.680 the forty four billion

00:55:12.560 he's paying?

00:55:13.360 That's a much

00:55:14.220 more difficult task

00:55:15.960 because I think

00:55:16.420 he's overpaying

00:55:17.500 for the company anyway

00:55:18.820 based on the assumption

00:55:20.240 that he could make

00:55:21.060 it far more valuable.

00:55:21.980 So there's a lot of,

00:55:23.120 you know, ifs there.

00:55:24.240 But again, that's

00:55:25.060 it's Elon Musk.

00:55:25.860 He can take a chance.

00:55:26.880 That's his money

00:55:27.480 and his partners.

00:55:28.720 What I'm talking about,

00:55:29.960 again, is the vulnerable position

00:55:31.700 that this puts Tesla

00:55:33.700 in as a company

00:55:35.140 when you've got somebody

00:55:36.900 with a twelve

00:55:37.480 and a half billion dollar

00:55:38.440 margin loan effectively

00:55:39.680 against a huge position

00:55:41.780 in Tesla.

00:55:43.160 And Tesla is a very

00:55:44.660 expensive stock.

00:55:46.180 The momentum could break.

00:55:47.480 The price could collapse.

00:55:48.920 Look what's happening

00:55:49.720 to so many of these

00:55:50.520 other momentum stocks.

00:55:51.940 You know, I think Tesla

00:55:53.080 was the original meme stock

00:55:54.500 before GameStop

00:55:55.940 and AMC.

00:55:57.260 Tesla really was

00:55:58.240 a meme stock.

00:55:59.180 It was all about Elon Musk

00:56:00.460 and his personality

00:56:01.720 more than the actual

00:56:02.940 profitability of the company.

00:56:04.360 But anything can happen

00:56:05.760 to change that momentum.

00:56:07.640 Look what just happened

00:56:08.360 to Robinhood.

00:56:09.080 You know, Robinhood

00:56:09.640 is down 90 percent.

00:56:11.460 You know, that's the app

00:56:12.400 was really popular.

00:56:13.520 Social media

00:56:14.160 during the COVID lockdowns.

00:56:16.120 This thing has imploded.

00:56:17.540 Now they're laying off

00:56:18.420 a good percentage

00:56:19.300 of their workforce.

00:56:20.780 But one stumble,

00:56:22.500 one missed earnings.

00:56:23.800 You know, Tesla's

00:56:24.680 most recent earnings

00:56:25.580 were better

00:56:26.160 and the stock went up.

00:56:27.200 But they're one

00:56:28.400 earnings announcement

00:56:29.520 away from a potential crash.

00:56:31.980 And having a guy

00:56:33.380 short

00:56:34.180 or basically leveraged

00:56:35.680 long

00:56:36.220 in this big position

00:56:37.860 is very vulnerable

00:56:39.040 because if the price

00:56:40.560 falls enough,

00:56:41.900 the covenants

00:56:42.600 in that loan

00:56:43.440 are going to require

00:56:44.600 the stock to be sold

00:56:45.980 regardless of the market price.

00:56:47.840 he's going to be forced

00:56:49.560 to sell that stock.

00:56:51.180 And since the price

00:56:52.260 has gone down,

00:56:53.260 he's going to have to sell

00:56:54.080 a lot more shares

00:56:55.060 to cover what he owes.

00:56:57.380 And why would that be bad

00:56:58.500 for Tesla?

00:56:59.820 Well, it's just bad

00:57:00.760 for the stock price,

00:57:01.620 you know,

00:57:01.780 whether it's bad

00:57:02.380 for the underlying company.

00:57:03.660 I mean,

00:57:04.120 you know,

00:57:04.960 that is a different story.

00:57:06.780 I'm talking about

00:57:07.280 the stock price

00:57:08.240 of Tesla

00:57:09.220 and people

00:57:10.260 who may own Tesla

00:57:11.420 right now

00:57:12.120 who think the price

00:57:13.320 is going to go up.

00:57:14.180 there is a tremendous risk

00:57:15.840 that it goes way down

00:57:17.180 and the fact

00:57:18.000 that Elon Musk

00:57:18.920 has just borrowed

00:57:19.880 so much money

00:57:20.640 or is thinking about it.

00:57:22.180 I mean,

00:57:22.400 it may not happen

00:57:23.360 because the deal

00:57:24.180 may not happen.

00:57:25.460 And if the price

00:57:26.680 of Tesla stock

00:57:27.920 drops enough

00:57:28.780 between now

00:57:29.940 and the deal,

00:57:30.720 maybe that alone

00:57:31.660 will call off the deal

00:57:32.600 because,

00:57:33.320 you know,

00:57:33.960 Musk might be concerned

00:57:35.440 about the loss

00:57:37.180 in value of Tesla.

00:57:38.660 So we'll see.

00:57:39.600 Again,

00:57:39.900 you know,

00:57:40.100 the market is pricing

00:57:41.340 in a significant risk

00:57:42.560 that this deal

00:57:43.260 does not happen.

00:57:45.060 You had predicted

00:57:46.620 that there would be

00:57:47.820 a drop

00:57:48.220 in the Tesla stock

00:57:49.760 and indeed

00:57:50.460 we have seen that

00:57:51.360 this week

00:57:52.220 someplace between

00:57:53.260 7% and 10%

00:57:54.480 it fell

00:57:55.100 after the announcement

00:57:56.560 of this deal

00:57:57.560 but how confident

00:57:59.660 are we

00:58:00.320 that that is

00:58:01.260 attributable

00:58:02.060 to his announcement

00:58:02.900 about Twitter

00:58:03.580 is what the papers

00:58:05.240 tell me.

00:58:05.680 Bloomberg says,

00:58:06.560 you know,

00:58:07.640 it happened amid

00:58:08.480 a broader sell-off

00:58:09.520 in equity markets

00:58:10.380 around the world

00:58:11.140 due to slower

00:58:11.800 economic expansion,

00:58:13.200 persistent inflation,

00:58:14.160 and then

00:58:16.380 Barron says

00:58:17.460 the broader stock

00:58:18.200 markets plunge

00:58:19.040 can be blamed

00:58:19.760 for at least part

00:58:20.680 of the decline

00:58:22.100 in the Tesla stock.

00:58:23.680 So how much

00:58:25.740 of a factor

00:58:26.340 was his announcement

00:58:27.460 on the Twitter deal

00:58:28.680 in what we've seen

00:58:29.780 happen to Tesla

00:58:30.440 this week?

00:58:31.600 The stock.

00:58:31.880 Well,

00:58:32.100 there's certainly

00:58:32.600 something to be said

00:58:33.540 for the fact

00:58:34.040 that it might have

00:58:34.620 dropped anyway

00:58:35.300 but it was down

00:58:36.780 11-12% yesterday

00:58:38.780 the day following

00:58:39.640 the announcement.

00:58:40.760 That was one of

00:58:41.200 the biggest declines

00:58:42.240 in any one stock.

00:58:44.120 I think you had

00:58:44.580 a 10% drop

00:58:45.600 in GE

00:58:46.180 but GE actually

00:58:47.800 had earnings

00:58:48.420 that they missed on.

00:58:49.900 I mean,

00:58:50.020 there was no news,

00:58:50.980 no bad news

00:58:51.900 was released on Tesla.

00:58:53.520 So the only news

00:58:54.620 was this deal

00:58:55.520 and yes,

00:58:56.500 the overall market

00:58:57.320 was weak

00:58:57.960 but not nearly

00:58:58.700 as weak as Tesla.

00:59:00.160 So I don't think

00:59:00.980 you can just dismiss

00:59:01.940 this transaction

00:59:02.940 and say,

00:59:03.440 well,

00:59:03.800 you know,

00:59:03.960 it's got this huge drop

00:59:05.320 has nothing to do

00:59:06.360 with this Twitter deal.

00:59:07.860 I think it has

00:59:08.500 a lot to do

00:59:09.700 with this Twitter deal

00:59:10.480 and I think the stock

00:59:11.720 is going to continue

00:59:12.420 to be under pressure

00:59:13.380 as long as this deal

00:59:14.740 is out there.

00:59:15.340 Now,

00:59:15.440 if the deal falls through

00:59:16.480 and it doesn't happen

00:59:17.600 then you could see

00:59:18.740 a big rise

00:59:19.520 in Tesla

00:59:20.700 because I think

00:59:21.220 that would be good news

00:59:22.260 that it's not going

00:59:22.880 to happen

00:59:23.260 but,

00:59:23.920 you know,

00:59:24.140 if it's going to happen

00:59:25.840 and it does happen

00:59:27.520 it is going to be

00:59:28.620 a significant negative

00:59:29.700 that is going to weigh

00:59:30.500 on that share price

00:59:31.440 and is reason enough

00:59:32.500 not to buy the stock.

00:59:33.980 I mean,

00:59:34.080 I don't own it anyway.

00:59:35.240 I mean,

00:59:35.400 so even if there was

00:59:36.320 no deal,

00:59:37.300 you know,

00:59:37.560 this is much too expensive

00:59:38.760 a stock for me to buy.

00:59:40.480 I don't buy stocks that way.

00:59:42.580 I'm looking for value

00:59:43.780 and,

00:59:44.500 you know,

00:59:44.960 I don't see it in Tesla.

00:59:46.660 I see a lot of competition coming.

00:59:48.800 In fact,

00:59:49.040 I mentioned Netflix.

00:59:50.560 I mean,

00:59:50.720 Netflix and Tesla

00:59:51.780 are very similar.

00:59:53.140 If you look at

00:59:54.260 why Netflix

00:59:55.360 became so expensive,

00:59:56.940 it innovated,

00:59:57.840 it had a new idea,

00:59:58.940 the streaming service

00:59:59.800 and it grew very quickly.

01:00:01.680 The share price

01:00:02.500 went up very quickly

01:00:03.420 but all of a sudden

01:00:04.560 a lot of people

01:00:05.480 emulated it.

01:00:06.400 Now it's got

01:00:06.880 all sorts of competition

01:00:07.940 from major studios

01:00:09.600 and television networks

01:00:11.100 and internet companies

01:00:13.180 that it didn't have before.

01:00:14.340 So it's a crowded field.

01:00:15.820 Meanwhile,

01:00:16.200 their customer base

01:00:17.120 is,

01:00:17.720 you know,

01:00:17.980 is bombarded

01:00:18.880 with competition

01:00:20.500 but they also have

01:00:22.060 higher food prices,

01:00:23.520 higher energy prices,

01:00:24.700 higher rent.

01:00:25.560 How much money do they have

01:00:26.800 for all these streaming services?

01:00:28.420 They don't

01:00:28.940 and so they're having to cut back

01:00:30.260 and I think the same thing

01:00:31.700 could happen with Tesla.

01:00:33.020 Tesla,

01:00:33.480 you know,

01:00:33.700 has everything,

01:00:34.400 the market to itself.

01:00:35.780 It shows that there's

01:00:36.560 a lot of demand

01:00:37.240 for electric cars.

01:00:38.780 Well,

01:00:39.040 what do you know?

01:00:39.760 A lot of the major

01:00:40.700 automobile companies

01:00:41.720 all around the world

01:00:42.460 are now coming up

01:00:43.380 with electric cars

01:00:44.140 of their own

01:00:44.720 to compete with Tesla.

01:00:46.620 Meanwhile,

01:00:46.980 the cost of building

01:00:47.960 these cars

01:00:48.580 is skyrocketing

01:00:49.560 because of the raw material costs.

01:00:51.220 So there's more competition.

01:00:53.500 It's more expensive

01:00:54.160 to make them.

01:00:55.120 I mean,

01:00:55.400 their market share

01:00:56.120 is going to be

01:00:56.940 competed away

01:00:58.200 and,

01:00:59.120 you know,

01:00:59.720 the valuation

01:01:00.520 could suffer.

01:01:01.540 Investors

01:01:01.940 are going to start

01:01:02.980 to look at this

01:01:03.700 from a more realistic

01:01:05.080 perspective

01:01:05.660 and the valuation

01:01:07.340 is going to come down.

01:01:08.420 The problem is now

01:01:09.240 when the valuation

01:01:09.860 comes down,

01:01:10.900 now Musk could be forced

01:01:11.960 to sell his stock.

01:01:13.380 Who's going to buy that stock

01:01:14.600 and at what price

01:01:15.620 under those circumstances?

01:01:16.940 That is the risk.

01:01:18.020 I mean,

01:01:18.180 both for Elon Musk

01:01:19.360 and for any shareholders

01:01:21.000 in Tesla.

01:01:23.100 All right.

01:01:23.780 So to dumb it way down,

01:01:26.100 if we want to know

01:01:27.280 whether the Twitter deal

01:01:28.300 is actually going to go through,

01:01:29.900 a smart thing to watch

01:01:31.460 might be

01:01:32.180 the price of Tesla shares.

01:01:35.140 Or the price of Twitter.

01:01:36.680 I mean,

01:01:36.960 the deal price for Twitter,

01:01:38.440 I think,

01:01:38.760 is $54.20.

01:01:40.500 And Twitter is trading at $48.

01:01:42.800 So obviously,

01:01:43.780 if the deal goes through,

01:01:44.980 you have to buy,

01:01:45.560 just buy,

01:01:46.020 you can buy it now at $48

01:01:47.220 and you make $7.

01:01:48.420 I mean,

01:01:49.020 it's a good return

01:01:50.120 in potentially

01:01:51.100 a short period of time.

01:01:52.640 But the question is,

01:01:53.760 why is the stock trading

01:01:55.100 at $48

01:01:55.740 when Musk is going to buy it

01:01:58.380 at $54?

01:01:59.860 It's because

01:02:00.560 it's not a certainty.

01:02:01.860 Because the risk is,

01:02:03.020 you buy it at $48

01:02:04.080 hoping to make $7

01:02:05.320 and the deal

01:02:06.540 is called off

01:02:07.800 and it goes from $48

01:02:08.960 to $28

01:02:09.500 and you lose $20.

01:02:10.600 Right?

01:02:10.780 So there's risk there.

01:02:12.460 So if you look at that price,

01:02:14.460 if the price of Twitter

01:02:15.760 in the market

01:02:16.540 starts to trade

01:02:17.720 a lot closer

01:02:18.480 to that deal price,

01:02:19.760 then that's an indication

01:02:20.940 that at least the market

01:02:21.980 has more confidence

01:02:23.360 that the deal

01:02:23.980 is going to go through.

01:02:25.160 That is negative for Tesla.

01:02:27.040 And I would imagine

01:02:27.980 that the closer

01:02:28.880 the price of Twitter

01:02:30.580 gets to the deal price,

01:02:32.000 the lower the price

01:02:33.240 of Tesla is going to be.

01:02:34.720 Okay.

01:02:35.400 All right.

01:02:35.840 Now,

01:02:36.060 one more subject

01:02:36.580 before I let you go.

01:02:37.940 Joe Biden

01:02:38.440 is getting ready.

01:02:39.420 It looks like,

01:02:40.840 I mean,

01:02:41.060 it's stunning.

01:02:41.860 I can hardly believe

01:02:43.680 that it's actually

01:02:44.700 he's going to do it.

01:02:46.020 But to forgive,

01:02:48.360 quote,

01:02:48.720 forgive,

01:02:49.960 I don't know how much

01:02:51.680 in student loans.

01:02:53.540 And it's incredibly immoral.

01:02:56.660 I mean,

01:02:56.900 it's incredibly immoral

01:02:57.720 to say those people

01:02:59.000 who paid off their loans,

01:03:00.640 they're suckers. 0.95

01:03:01.800 They're a bunch of losers

01:03:02.700 because the federal government

01:03:04.120 is going to swoop in now

01:03:05.140 and pay the loans

01:03:05.800 of those people

01:03:06.260 who refuse to pay,

01:03:07.500 who didn't pay their debt.

01:03:08.900 Not to mention,

01:03:09.860 it's a huge wealth transfer,

01:03:11.140 right?

01:03:11.360 And it's a wealth transfer

01:03:12.200 from the working class

01:03:13.200 and the middle class

01:03:13.920 to the upper class,

01:03:15.320 the people who went to college,

01:03:16.540 people who,

01:03:17.120 all the other people

01:03:17.740 who said,

01:03:18.100 you know what,

01:03:18.320 I can't afford college.

01:03:19.420 I can't afford it

01:03:20.160 and I don't want to put myself

01:03:20.880 in debt,

01:03:21.200 so I'm not doing it.

01:03:21.740 Those people,

01:03:22.420 guess what?

01:03:22.900 You didn't get to go to college

01:03:23.840 and now you're going to have

01:03:24.640 to pay for the college

01:03:25.340 of the people who chose to go.

01:03:27.100 Yeah.

01:03:27.500 Look,

01:03:27.660 this is another example

01:03:28.920 of two wrongs

01:03:30.340 not making a right.

01:03:32.020 The government

01:03:32.560 never should have got

01:03:33.700 into the student loan business

01:03:35.420 in the first place.

01:03:36.380 The only reason

01:03:37.320 that college is so expensive

01:03:39.280 and so many people

01:03:40.360 now have so much debt

01:03:41.440 is because of government.

01:03:43.040 Before government

01:03:43.660 got involved

01:03:44.380 in guaranteed student loans

01:03:46.100 and then direct student loans,

01:03:47.620 college was not expensive.

01:03:48.960 Yeah.

01:03:49.920 You know,

01:03:50.620 if your parents were poor

01:03:52.120 or middle class

01:03:53.580 and they couldn't afford

01:03:54.660 to send you to college,

01:03:55.620 you worked your way

01:03:56.640 through college.

01:03:57.180 You got a summer job,

01:03:58.160 you waited tables,

01:03:58.960 no problem.

01:03:59.960 You graduated debt-free

01:04:01.600 and if your parents

01:04:02.760 were even upper middle class

01:04:04.240 or upper class,

01:04:05.440 no problem.

01:04:06.100 They covered your cost of college.

01:04:07.960 College was inexpensive.

01:04:09.320 But once the government

01:04:10.260 started providing students

01:04:11.780 with all this money,

01:04:13.000 that's when the universities

01:04:14.060 really took advantage

01:04:15.040 of the students

01:04:15.680 and the government

01:04:16.240 to jack up prices

01:04:17.540 because you no longer

01:04:18.360 had any competition.

01:04:20.360 Students no longer cared

01:04:21.540 how much college cost

01:04:22.820 because they were getting

01:04:23.820 the money from the government.

01:04:24.880 They were getting these loans

01:04:25.800 and without the government guarantees,

01:04:28.100 the banks wouldn't

01:04:28.660 have loaned the money.

01:04:29.360 And so if the students

01:04:31.360 didn't have the money,

01:04:32.240 then the colleges

01:04:33.000 couldn't have charged so much.

01:04:34.400 So now you have a situation

01:04:35.820 where because of government,

01:04:37.160 everybody has all this debt

01:04:38.320 and their solution is,

01:04:40.260 well, let's just forgive the debt.

01:04:41.760 That is an even bigger moral hazard

01:04:44.040 because what you're now telling people

01:04:45.660 is nobody should pay for college.

01:04:47.920 You're an idiot now.

01:04:49.260 Even if you can afford it,

01:04:50.560 just borrow the money

01:04:51.620 because it's going to get forgiven.

01:04:53.540 I mean, you'd have to be

01:04:54.140 a complete idiot

01:04:54.860 to pay for college.

01:04:56.260 And now if you thought

01:04:57.800 college was expensive before,

01:04:59.360 wait till you see

01:05:00.360 how much more expensive

01:05:01.320 it's going to get

01:05:02.080 once they start forgiving the loans

01:05:03.920 because now colleges can say,

01:05:06.140 look, we're going to charge you

01:05:07.640 $100,000 for this tuition.

01:05:10.020 But who cares?

01:05:11.400 Borrow the money.

01:05:12.080 You're never going to have to pay it back.

01:05:13.420 It's all going to get forgiven anyway.

01:05:15.120 In fact, if you come to our university,

01:05:17.900 we'll just throw in a free car.

01:05:19.800 You know, we'll just wrap that up

01:05:21.100 and throw it in with your student loans

01:05:22.440 because, you know,

01:05:23.080 you're not going to have to pay for it.

01:05:24.620 You know, I mean,

01:05:25.360 this is all a grab bag.

01:05:27.580 Government pays for it.

01:05:28.740 It's going to be a disaster

01:05:30.340 if they actually forgive it.

01:05:32.300 I mean, what they should do,

01:05:33.280 I feel badly for a lot of these students

01:05:35.660 that have all this debt

01:05:36.740 because of the government.

01:05:37.900 What I would do personally,

01:05:40.220 I would like to forgive the debt,

01:05:42.240 but only if you get the government

01:05:44.080 out of the student loan business forever.

01:05:46.720 No more government student loans,

01:05:48.460 no more guaranteed student loans.

01:05:51.000 That way you'd avoid the moral hazard.

01:05:53.200 And you force these universities

01:05:55.680 to cut costs to lower their tuition

01:05:58.440 because otherwise they'll have no customers

01:06:00.300 because the only reason

01:06:01.320 they can charge so much now

01:06:02.680 is because of these government loans.

01:06:04.340 So the government gets out of the way.

01:06:05.960 The free market is going to lower tuition.

01:06:08.760 It's going to cost a lot less.

01:06:10.040 Now, fewer people will go to college

01:06:11.680 because right now,

01:06:12.460 because the government makes it so easy,

01:06:14.280 a lot of people

01:06:15.080 who barely graduated high school

01:06:16.760 go to college

01:06:18.020 and they take remedial math,

01:06:19.580 remedial English.

01:06:20.260 They're wasting their time.

01:06:21.800 The degrees are worthless.

01:06:23.180 They study, you know,

01:06:24.000 underwater basket weaving.

01:06:25.700 You know, we have a lot of kids

01:06:27.040 that don't belong in college.

01:06:28.480 They're only there

01:06:29.040 because the government

01:06:29.740 makes it available and pays for it.

01:06:32.640 They need to be learning trades.

01:06:34.180 They need to be learning skills.

01:06:35.580 The last thing they need to do

01:06:36.720 is waste five or six years,

01:06:38.680 you know, in college.

01:06:41.400 But that's not, unfortunately,

01:06:43.780 where we're headed.

01:06:45.220 You know, they're likely

01:06:46.680 to forgive these loans.

01:06:48.680 And, you know,

01:06:50.040 they're just going to do

01:06:50.660 even more damage

01:06:51.740 than what they've already done.

01:06:54.920 And the other factor

01:06:56.040 that even if you forgive these loans,

01:06:58.740 you have to recognize

01:06:59.820 that there's a cost to it.

01:07:01.800 How are you going to pay for it?

01:07:03.360 Because forgiving these loans,

01:07:05.080 if you tell all these college students,

01:07:07.060 you don't have to pay your loans back.

01:07:09.400 I mean, what that means

01:07:11.240 is like the government

01:07:12.080 is giving up all this income

01:07:13.800 that they were getting.

01:07:15.520 Up to 1.7 trillion.

01:07:16.200 How are they going to make up the difference?

01:07:17.500 Are they going to raise taxes

01:07:18.880 on the middle class

01:07:20.000 to cover the cost?

01:07:21.620 Right?

01:07:21.960 Of course.

01:07:22.560 How else would they?

01:07:23.380 That's their go-to.

01:07:24.720 No.

01:07:25.380 No.

01:07:25.760 They're just going to print more money.

01:07:27.400 Because all this,

01:07:28.000 because can you imagine

01:07:28.920 if you tell these students

01:07:30.500 that have student debt right now,

01:07:32.380 you don't have to pay the debt back.

01:07:35.140 Now the students have more money

01:07:36.520 to go out and buy more stuff.

01:07:38.340 They can buy more cars.

01:07:39.800 They can travel more.

01:07:41.240 They have more spending money.

01:07:42.560 Well, that's more inflation.

01:07:43.860 They're going to push up prices

01:07:44.960 because the government

01:07:45.980 is not going to reduce its spending

01:07:49.080 even though it's reduced its revenue.

01:07:51.640 So it's going to require,

01:07:52.740 it's going to mean

01:07:53.240 bigger budget deficits,

01:07:54.640 more money printing,

01:07:55.880 more inflation.

01:07:57.320 That's how the public

01:07:58.360 is going to pay

01:07:59.160 for student loan forgiveness.

01:08:00.840 They're not going to see

01:08:01.700 their taxes go up.

01:08:03.000 They're just going to see

01:08:03.840 prices go up more.

01:08:05.200 And now, of course,

01:08:05.740 the government's going to blame it

01:08:06.660 on Putin

01:08:07.180 or they're going to blame it

01:08:08.120 on the pandemic

01:08:09.240 or everybody,

01:08:09.960 anything else.

01:08:10.480 But it's government.

01:08:12.100 It's this deficit spending.

01:08:13.440 It's money printing.

01:08:14.760 And if the government says,

01:08:16.680 we're not going to take that revenue,

01:08:18.240 we're going to forgive

01:08:18.980 the student loans,

01:08:19.860 then they're going to have

01:08:21.260 even bigger deficits.

01:08:22.520 And again, as I said,

01:08:24.020 more people are going to borrow

01:08:25.660 more money to go to college.

01:08:27.220 The colleges are going to raise

01:08:28.500 tuitions even higher.

01:08:30.020 So nobody's going to pay.

01:08:31.940 Everybody's going to take on debt

01:08:33.260 knowing that the government

01:08:34.300 is going to wipe out the debt.

01:08:35.700 And that's, you know,

01:08:36.460 even bigger budget deficits,

01:08:38.560 even more inflation.

01:08:39.440 You know, this is insanity.

01:08:41.340 It's insanity.

01:08:42.160 It's, of course,

01:08:43.280 politically driven.

01:08:44.300 His numbers are in the tank

01:08:45.640 with young people right now.

01:08:47.260 He's lost only 20 points

01:08:48.580 off of his approval rating.

01:08:49.720 And so even while

01:08:50.880 President Biden himself

01:08:52.540 has expressed skepticism

01:08:54.280 about doing this

01:08:55.660 for some of the reasons

01:08:56.360 you outlined,

01:08:57.240 he's now reportedly

01:08:58.580 getting ready to do it

01:08:59.920 because of politics.

01:09:01.820 It's disgusting.

01:09:03.060 It's irresponsible.

01:09:04.420 Yeah.

01:09:04.520 Tax and print is no way

01:09:06.400 to run a federal

01:09:07.360 monetary policy.

01:09:08.320 Megan, this is the problem

01:09:10.000 with democracy.

01:09:11.040 This is why we have student loans

01:09:12.520 in the first place

01:09:13.240 because the government,

01:09:15.000 see, when they lowered

01:09:15.900 the voting age down to 18,

01:09:18.240 the cost of college

01:09:19.440 became a big issue

01:09:20.380 because now you have

01:09:21.060 all these 18-year-olds

01:09:22.040 that are voting

01:09:22.580 and they're going to college.

01:09:23.840 And so how did

01:09:24.840 the Democratic Party

01:09:25.940 want to lock up their votes?

01:09:27.740 Hey, we'll promise

01:09:28.580 to pay for your college.

01:09:29.760 So, hey, you don't have

01:09:30.540 to have a summer job.

01:09:31.600 You don't have to wake tables

01:09:32.520 over the summer.

01:09:33.420 Go to the beach.

01:09:34.180 Have fun.

01:09:35.000 We'll make it easy

01:09:35.760 for you to borrow money.

01:09:36.980 And so that's what they did.

01:09:38.540 And, you know,

01:09:39.140 you get into bed

01:09:39.820 with the government.

01:09:40.580 Eventually, you know,

01:09:41.460 you know what's going

01:09:41.920 to happen to you.

01:09:42.540 And that's exactly

01:09:43.240 what happened.

01:09:44.180 And that's what

01:09:44.760 they're doing again.

01:09:45.640 Obviously, if Biden is saying,

01:09:48.180 hey, vote for me

01:09:49.000 and I'm going to forgive

01:09:50.320 your $50,000,

01:09:51.400 $100,000 of student loans,

01:09:53.300 yeah, that guy

01:09:54.120 is going to vote for you.

01:09:54.880 That gal is going 1.00

01:09:55.380 to vote for you

01:09:55.840 because you're giving them

01:09:57.160 this huge prize.

01:09:58.600 It's like a bribe.

01:09:59.860 It's like you're bribing

01:10:00.700 people for their votes.

01:10:02.280 But the people

01:10:03.220 who are paying for it

01:10:04.480 don't understand

01:10:05.280 that they're paying for it.

01:10:06.240 That's the problem

01:10:07.040 because the beneficiaries

01:10:08.500 know what they're going to get.

01:10:10.320 That's the scene, right?

01:10:11.940 The scene benefit of this

01:10:13.320 is, oh, I'm a student.

01:10:14.840 I don't have to repay the money.

01:10:16.320 All the unseen consequences

01:10:17.920 are diffused.

01:10:19.400 All the voters

01:10:19.940 who are going

01:10:20.400 to end up paying for it

01:10:21.520 don't realize

01:10:22.360 how much it's going to cost.

01:10:23.560 And so Biden

01:10:25.000 doesn't lose their votes.

01:10:26.640 He gains the votes

01:10:27.580 of the people who benefit,

01:10:29.040 but he doesn't necessarily

01:10:30.080 lose the votes of the people

01:10:31.500 who have to suffer

01:10:32.600 and bear the cost

01:10:33.620 because they don't even

01:10:34.480 understand that they're

01:10:35.400 paying for it.

01:10:37.180 As you say,

01:10:37.520 you get in bed

01:10:38.100 with the government.

01:10:38.760 This is the scene.

01:10:39.560 This is the scene

01:10:40.180 in that movie

01:10:40.680 where you wake up

01:10:41.560 with a horse head

01:10:42.240 in the bottom of your bed.

01:10:44.020 Don't do it.

01:10:45.320 Peter Schiff,

01:10:45.880 always interesting.

01:10:46.640 Thank you so much.

01:10:47.700 Up next,

01:10:48.460 tech entrepreneur

01:10:49.180 and author of Woke Inc.

01:10:51.300 Vivek Ramaswamy is here.

01:10:52.860 He's the one who coined

01:10:54.200 that they're smuggling

01:10:55.680 in their content

01:10:57.060 or their viewpoint discrimination

01:10:58.380 through their hate speech policies.

01:11:01.940 Very interesting theory

01:11:02.800 and he's got a lot of thoughts

01:11:03.980 on what this means for America.

01:11:06.340 That's next.

01:11:10.560 Tech entrepreneur

01:11:11.520 and author of the book

01:11:12.760 Woke Inc.,

01:11:14.020 Vivek Ramaswamy

01:11:14.820 joins me now

01:11:15.460 to explain

01:11:16.080 how Elon Musk

01:11:18.120 can liberate Twitter successfully.

01:11:21.600 Welcome back to the show, Vivek.

01:11:22.780 Great to see you.

01:11:23.600 Good to see you, Megan.

01:11:24.140 How are you?

01:11:24.920 Good.

01:11:25.680 So all show long,

01:11:27.320 we've been talking about

01:11:28.020 something you wrote

01:11:28.900 in a piece for

01:11:29.560 The Wall Street Journal

01:11:30.240 on April 26th

01:11:31.660 and it was a piece called

01:11:33.120 How Elon Musk

01:11:34.060 Can Liberate Twitter,

01:11:35.560 you and our mutual friend

01:11:36.960 Jed Rubenfeld

01:11:37.580 of Yale Law School.

01:11:39.300 He's married to Tiger Mom, 0.60

01:11:40.360 Amy Chua,

01:11:40.860 who's amazing too.

01:11:41.740 Long story.

01:11:42.360 Okay, anyway,

01:11:43.700 I love the way you put it

01:11:45.780 so I stole it

01:11:46.680 for purposes of this show

01:11:47.820 with attribution,

01:11:48.820 which means it's not stealing.

01:11:50.960 You write Twitter.

01:11:51.820 Well, thank you.

01:11:52.420 You don't have to do

01:11:53.140 the attribution even next time.

01:11:54.320 Just spread the ideas

01:11:55.420 and I'm happy.

01:11:56.240 I'll take it.

01:11:57.140 You write Twitter

01:11:58.140 and others smuggle

01:12:00.220 viewpoint discrimination

01:12:02.000 into supposedly neutral

01:12:04.460 content moderation categories,

01:12:06.740 primarily misinformation,

01:12:07.980 incitement,

01:12:08.380 and hate speech.

01:12:09.420 Right.

01:12:10.180 So your point is that

01:12:11.380 all they do

01:12:12.300 is viewpoint discrimination

01:12:13.320 and there's a reason

01:12:14.520 that it always goes

01:12:15.740 against one side

01:12:16.680 and they don't want

01:12:18.420 to own up to it.

01:12:19.480 So they just label it

01:12:21.340 as, oh,

01:12:22.000 that's pursuant

01:12:22.660 to our policy

01:12:23.400 against hate speech,

01:12:24.840 against misinformation,

01:12:26.420 against incitement

01:12:27.760 so they can still

01:12:28.680 look like the good guys.

01:12:30.220 Yeah, I think

01:12:30.560 you've got that right, Megan.

01:12:31.920 It runs just one layer

01:12:33.280 a little bit deeper

01:12:34.160 that allows them

01:12:35.600 to get away with it,

01:12:36.480 which is the classic

01:12:37.700 modern problem

01:12:38.560 of taking a political decision

01:12:40.260 but wrapping it

01:12:41.480 in the veneer

01:12:42.260 of technocracy.

01:12:43.500 Okay, so here's the thing.

01:12:45.220 Much of what they do

01:12:46.200 is viewpoint-based discrimination,

01:12:47.680 but some of it

01:12:49.180 is actually

01:12:49.800 the kind of thing

01:12:50.920 that you have to do

01:12:51.980 in order to just operate

01:12:53.220 a functional social media site.

01:12:54.740 So what I wanted to do

01:12:55.420 in the piece,

01:12:56.100 along with Jed,

01:12:56.660 was to clarify

01:12:57.820 what these different categories are

01:12:59.300 so we could smoke

01:13:00.140 the difference out.

01:13:01.380 What do I mean?

01:13:01.920 Even Elon Musk

01:13:02.760 has said that

01:13:03.400 he wants to remove

01:13:04.380 things like spam

01:13:05.960 that litters his feed.

01:13:07.180 I think that's a good thing.

01:13:08.300 It'll improve the user experience

01:13:09.720 for Twitter users.

01:13:10.840 If you didn't have

01:13:11.720 some level of content moderation,

01:13:13.120 all of the feeds

01:13:13.940 would be filled by porn,

01:13:15.440 by just unpleasant

01:13:17.520 content,

01:13:18.040 commercial spam,

01:13:18.780 the kinds of bot-driven content.

01:13:20.960 So you need to be able

01:13:21.920 to clean that up

01:13:22.520 even though that's

01:13:23.200 constitutionally protected

01:13:24.460 while still operating

01:13:26.400 as a free speech platform.

01:13:27.460 So that's the conundrum

01:13:28.180 that Elon Musk faces.

01:13:29.540 So what Twitter's been doing

01:13:30.380 for a long time

01:13:31.140 is that they've been

01:13:32.300 wrapping in

01:13:33.440 viewpoint-based discrimination

01:13:35.720 by smuggling it

01:13:36.860 into the categories

01:13:37.680 of the supposedly

01:13:38.820 neutral content moderation.

01:13:40.520 And so my first suggestion,

01:13:41.580 Elon Musk,

01:13:42.180 is to make sure

01:13:43.040 that he smokes out

01:13:43.900 the different categories

01:13:44.860 and becomes really clear

01:13:46.400 about what's what

01:13:47.240 because there's a very clear answer

01:13:48.380 about what to do

01:13:48.980 with each of them.

01:13:49.760 Okay, first is genuinely

01:13:51.500 false speech

01:13:52.820 like commercially

01:13:53.500 fraudulent advertising.

01:13:55.260 Well, there's an answer

01:13:56.500 for false speech.

01:13:57.600 You have to prove

01:13:58.260 that it's false,

01:13:58.940 but if you do,

01:13:59.440 you can take it down,

01:14:00.360 but you shouldn't be able

01:14:00.960 to take it down

01:14:01.560 without actually proof of falsity.

01:14:03.420 With respect to incitement,

01:14:05.080 it's a private company,

01:14:06.280 but actually the legal precedents

01:14:07.320 give us a good standard

01:14:08.160 that Elon Musk can use.

01:14:09.440 If there's really going

01:14:10.460 to be an imminent risk

01:14:11.780 of, say, bodily harm

01:14:13.300 or unlawful activity

01:14:14.340 and it meets a Brandenburg

01:14:15.620 versus Ohio test,

01:14:16.900 this is time-tested stuff.

01:14:17.980 It's been around

01:14:18.340 for a long time.

01:14:19.020 We don't have to recreate the wheel.

01:14:20.300 If it meets that test

01:14:21.400 of imminent harm,

01:14:22.700 take it down,

01:14:23.240 but it can't just meet

01:14:24.380 the test of what

01:14:25.040 a given Twitter employee

01:14:26.160 thinks on a given day

01:14:27.220 could theoretically lead

01:14:28.520 to violence in the future

01:14:29.320 because that includes everything.

01:14:30.920 And then there's

01:14:31.260 that third category

01:14:32.040 of hate speech.

01:14:33.320 And I think this is the category

01:14:34.400 that Elon Musk has

01:14:35.220 to get rid of altogether,

01:14:36.240 where any society

01:14:37.880 that permits free speech

01:14:38.920 has to acknowledge

01:14:39.760 that there's no such thing

01:14:41.460 as a false opinion

01:14:42.600 and there's no such thing

01:14:43.840 as an opinion

01:14:44.600 that isn't allowed

01:14:45.500 in the marketplace of ideas,

01:14:46.920 even if that's

01:14:47.640 an odious opinion,

01:14:49.020 even if that's an opinion

01:14:49.820 that hurts some people,

01:14:51.220 that's part of what it means

01:14:52.200 to live in a society

01:14:53.240 that protects free speech.

01:14:54.760 That's the principle

01:14:55.380 that Elon Musk

01:14:56.000 should bring to running Twitter

01:14:56.980 in recognizing that hate speech

01:14:58.600 is in a different category.

01:15:00.320 And then Megan, like,

01:15:01.020 look, I mean,

01:15:01.480 do a lot of people

01:15:02.100 want to see racial epithets online?

01:15:03.800 No.

01:15:04.600 Are racial epithets

01:15:05.340 a form of hate speech

01:15:06.440 that express an opinion?

01:15:07.900 Absolutely.

01:15:08.480 So how do you resolve

01:15:09.100 that conundrum?

01:15:10.020 Are you just going to drive

01:15:10.820 all of your users away?

01:15:12.340 And this is where I come up

01:15:13.080 with a really simple solution

01:15:14.300 along with Jed

01:15:14.880 that we printed

01:15:15.680 in the pages of the journal today,

01:15:17.020 which was that actually

01:15:18.500 the thing that you got

01:15:19.420 to be able to do

01:15:20.160 is give users the choice.

01:15:22.780 Twitter has this censorship regime.

01:15:24.540 If you really like it that much,

01:15:25.960 let the user opt into it

01:15:27.620 or let the user opt into an algorithm

01:15:30.200 that can show them content

01:15:31.580 that they do

01:15:32.140 and don't want to see,

01:15:33.440 but don't make those decisions centrally

01:15:35.460 because that's what turns this

01:15:36.540 from a free speech,

01:15:37.720 what could have been

01:15:38.180 a free speech platform

01:15:39.080 into a platform

01:15:40.280 for really a centralized form

01:15:41.800 of political censorship

01:15:43.060 and related indoctrination.

01:15:44.820 So that's the view at a high level.

01:15:47.220 I like the plan.

01:15:48.100 However, I see some potential pitfalls

01:15:50.120 with the hate speech policy, right?

01:15:51.600 Because it's,

01:15:52.660 if you were to allow,

01:15:54.180 like what could be said?

01:15:55.540 So if pursuant to those guidelines,

01:15:57.180 you could say,

01:15:58.620 let's make it somebody,

01:16:00.180 a fictional character

01:16:00.960 because I don't,

01:16:02.000 you know, whatever,

01:16:02.880 you know,

01:16:03.340 Joe, Jane Schmo,

01:16:04.980 Jane Doe. 0.97

01:16:06.060 Jane Doe is an effing C word

01:16:09.480 whose face should be bashed in

01:16:11.600 and relatives should be harassed.

01:16:14.940 And then they retweet it

01:16:16.340 and they retweet it

01:16:17.080 and they like it,

01:16:17.560 they like it,

01:16:17.920 they like it,

01:16:18.340 and they retweet it.

01:16:19.260 And now it's trending.

01:16:21.240 Jane Doe is an effing C word

01:16:23.420 and all that stuff.

01:16:24.740 It's not incitement.

01:16:26.040 It doesn't call for immediate violence.

01:16:27.360 It's likely to happen.

01:16:28.540 It's definitely hateful.

01:16:30.580 It's got what anybody

01:16:32.260 would consider slurs,

01:16:33.720 but if we're not going to ban them,

01:16:35.060 then it should be okay.

01:16:36.940 But it's going to create a shitstorm

01:16:38.560 in Jane Doe's life,

01:16:39.760 probably, right?

01:16:40.560 Because it's going to circulate.

01:16:41.640 It's going to circulate.

01:16:42.640 So what about something like that?

01:16:44.940 Yeah.

01:16:45.100 So just for the purpose of the example,

01:16:46.660 Megan,

01:16:46.900 at least for first discussing,

01:16:47.980 are you okay with dropping

01:16:49.280 the should have her face punched in part,

01:16:51.340 but all of the other odious stuff

01:16:52.600 still included effing C word,

01:16:53.980 all that.

01:16:54.760 You okay to start with that one first?

01:16:56.600 Like, I don't know.

01:16:57.400 I'm still working it out.

01:16:58.520 You want to leave that in there.

01:16:59.440 You want to leave that in there.

01:17:00.200 Okay.

01:17:01.040 Because you and I agree

01:17:02.200 that the government

01:17:03.220 could not ban that.

01:17:04.160 That would be a constitutionally

01:17:05.260 protected statement.

01:17:05.400 The government could not ban that.

01:17:06.260 Yeah.

01:17:06.460 The government could,

01:17:07.860 well, let's agree with that.

01:17:09.040 So for the sake of the example,

01:17:10.560 let's just agree

01:17:11.420 that that does not count

01:17:12.500 as an incitement

01:17:14.160 to imminent bodily harm.

01:17:15.560 I agree.

01:17:15.840 Okay.

01:17:16.000 Let's just put that in that category.

01:17:17.260 Then let's talk about it.

01:17:17.940 Fine.

01:17:18.700 Because when that goes viral,

01:17:19.720 some people may be

01:17:20.320 on the other side of that.

01:17:21.040 And I don't want to distract

01:17:21.760 from that from the main issue,

01:17:22.720 which is just,

01:17:23.140 there's a really odious thing

01:17:24.060 you're saying about Jane

01:17:24.640 that's going to make her life worse. 1.00

01:17:26.020 That's not going to result

01:17:27.080 in her suffering

01:17:28.280 from physical violence,

01:17:29.160 but is going to make

01:17:29.820 her life worse off.

01:17:31.280 And that's going to trend virally.

01:17:32.560 What do we say about that?

01:17:33.840 Yeah.

01:17:33.940 So here's what I say about it.

01:17:35.860 Most users don't want to see

01:17:37.580 that kind of content on Twitter.

01:17:39.220 They will have the opportunity

01:17:40.340 to opt out of it.

01:17:41.680 Many of them will be able

01:17:42.640 to opt out of it

01:17:43.400 by saying that they want to opt out

01:17:44.600 by opting back in

01:17:46.020 to Twitter's pre-existing regime,

01:17:47.620 which would have that kind

01:17:48.320 of content taken down.

01:17:49.840 And others,

01:17:50.620 through their own user behavior,

01:17:52.240 will actually be able

01:17:52.940 to train simple

01:17:53.820 artificial intelligence AI algorithms

01:17:56.220 that Twitter uses today

01:17:57.700 to effectively show people

01:17:59.380 the kind of content

01:17:59.960 they want to see.

01:18:01.120 That's the other proposal

01:18:02.060 that we make.

01:18:02.920 But at the end of the day,

01:18:03.820 if there are people

01:18:04.580 who really want to opt in

01:18:06.300 to see the kind of content

01:18:07.720 that you just described,

01:18:09.260 odious content,

01:18:10.380 hateful content,

01:18:11.440 content that doesn't make me

01:18:12.880 feel better in my course

01:18:14.280 of living my day

01:18:15.000 when I see that.

01:18:16.060 So I'm not going to go

01:18:16.680 search it out.

01:18:17.220 But let's suppose

01:18:17.960 there are the kinds of people

01:18:19.180 out there who want

01:18:19.860 to search that out

01:18:20.500 and say, you know what?

01:18:21.500 That's what people say

01:18:22.200 in the real world

01:18:22.720 and I want to see it unfiltered.

01:18:24.380 Then I say that is part

01:18:25.600 of what living

01:18:26.240 in a free speech culture

01:18:27.480 actually means.

01:18:28.420 We support free speech

01:18:29.720 in this country

01:18:30.340 not because it is not harmful.

01:18:32.660 Free speech

01:18:33.220 has harm.

01:18:34.400 This was the same debate

01:18:35.440 in 1787

01:18:36.200 as it is today.

01:18:37.900 But we accept

01:18:38.780 free speech

01:18:39.640 and we embrace free speech

01:18:40.840 not because we believe

01:18:41.760 it does not cause harm

01:18:42.680 but because we believe

01:18:44.080 the right way

01:18:44.900 for working out

01:18:45.580 our disagreements

01:18:46.320 is through more speech

01:18:47.840 rather than less speech

01:18:49.080 and through ultimately

01:18:50.360 a free exchange of ideas

01:18:51.680 that democracy

01:18:52.380 and the advancement

01:18:53.040 of truth

01:18:53.640 ultimately depends on.

01:18:55.500 So push comes to shove.

01:18:57.860 There's a lot of reasons

01:18:59.120 why I think the problem

01:18:59.780 isn't as big as

01:19:00.480 you might be concerned

01:19:01.440 about there

01:19:01.860 but when the rubber

01:19:02.940 hits the road

01:19:03.440 yes, I come down

01:19:04.360 on the side

01:19:04.820 that somebody

01:19:05.300 should be allowed

01:19:05.880 to say that

01:19:06.460 and that users

01:19:07.940 shouldn't be forced

01:19:08.980 to listen to it.

01:19:10.180 They should be able

01:19:10.780 to turn that off

01:19:11.740 should be able

01:19:12.480 to turn their settings

01:19:13.280 such that they don't see that

01:19:14.300 should be able

01:19:14.900 to opt into Twitter's

01:19:16.020 existing paradigm

01:19:17.000 which wouldn't allow

01:19:17.660 them to see that

01:19:18.300 but for those

01:19:19.140 who do want to see it

01:19:19.980 they should be free

01:19:20.480 to see it

01:19:20.900 and for those

01:19:21.460 who do want to say it

01:19:22.300 they should be free

01:19:22.880 to say it.

01:19:23.300 I feel like

01:19:24.700 it's just

01:19:25.580 what bothers me

01:19:26.940 about the way

01:19:27.460 Twitter operates

01:19:28.260 right now

01:19:28.740 is such a statement

01:19:30.160 like that

01:19:30.540 would probably be censored

01:19:31.620 under the present day rules

01:19:33.320 though 100%

01:19:35.380 I've been subjected

01:19:36.180 to that on Twitter

01:19:36.800 for years

01:19:37.920 and all you need to do

01:19:39.060 is go back

01:19:39.480 and look at the tweets

01:19:40.480 at me after the Trump debate

01:19:41.540 to see that.

01:19:42.180 I mean it was

01:19:42.700 absolutely vicious

01:19:43.640 and one of the top

01:19:46.960 executives of Twitter

01:19:47.880 actually told me

01:19:49.140 personally

01:19:49.540 that what happened

01:19:50.460 to me

01:19:50.760 was one of the reasons

01:19:51.560 they started to think about

01:19:52.660 should we be moderating

01:19:54.060 some of this content more

01:19:55.240 however

01:19:57.740 however

01:19:58.680 it doesn't make me

01:20:01.260 in favor of these

01:20:02.020 moderation rules

01:20:03.060 it doesn't make me

01:20:04.040 say we should

01:20:04.960 we should crack down

01:20:05.920 on speech more on Twitter

01:20:06.900 because what's happened

01:20:08.500 is they've just chosen

01:20:10.200 their favorite

01:20:10.800 left-wing causes

01:20:11.640 and they crack down on

01:20:13.300 you know

01:20:13.500 back to the viewpoint thing

01:20:14.380 they crack down on the people

01:20:15.440 who touch those

01:20:17.120 sacred cows

01:20:18.140 but

01:20:19.160 so Twitter didn't like

01:20:20.760 what the Trump supporters

01:20:21.700 were saying about me

01:20:22.580 but they were 100%

01:20:24.160 with all of the liberals

01:20:25.840 on TikTok

01:20:26.680 calling me a racist

01:20:27.880 after I left NBC

01:20:29.540 for trying to get

01:20:30.740 into a discussion

01:20:31.340 about how

01:20:32.000 society's acceptance

01:20:33.220 of blackface

01:20:34.020 has changed

01:20:34.620 over the past 40 years

01:20:35.620 they loved it

01:20:36.800 Twitter amplified it

01:20:37.940 they let everybody

01:20:38.660 go for it

01:20:39.660 right

01:20:39.860 no problem

01:20:40.520 they had no problem

01:20:41.420 with that

01:20:41.600 so I don't

01:20:43.040 I have very mixed feelings

01:20:44.020 about this content

01:20:44.620 moderation thing

01:20:45.500 because I think

01:20:45.960 it's just going to be

01:20:46.620 employed against one side

01:20:48.240 if we try to say

01:20:49.040 oh the balance of decency

01:20:50.480 would prevent this

01:20:51.980 well

01:20:52.820 yeah

01:20:53.240 it hasn't worked out

01:20:54.860 so well

01:20:55.200 let's go to the harder question

01:20:57.420 the easier question is

01:20:58.320 is Twitter hypocritical

01:20:59.460 in the way they apply

01:21:00.300 those standards

01:21:00.820 in a partisan way

01:21:01.860 absolutely they are

01:21:03.200 the examples are countless

01:21:04.960 Jed and I pointed out

01:21:06.200 several in our article

01:21:07.280 of the way that

01:21:08.020 certain of President Trump

01:21:09.020 Trump's tweets

01:21:09.800 were taken down

01:21:10.540 when certain other

01:21:11.500 more clear

01:21:12.120 can I read that

01:21:12.360 that's a good paragraph

01:21:13.280 let me just read that

01:21:14.100 Vivek

01:21:14.400 and I'll let you finish

01:21:15.800 your point

01:21:16.020 because that's

01:21:16.420 I wanted the audience

01:21:17.320 to hear this

01:21:17.760 you write

01:21:18.500 conservative opinions

01:21:19.380 about transgenderism

01:21:20.380 are censored as attacks

01:21:21.560 on a protected group

01:21:23.040 conservative views on COVID

01:21:24.460 are flagged as misinformation

01:21:25.420 in May 2020

01:21:26.840 Twitter censored

01:21:27.980 as a quote

01:21:28.580 glorification of violence

01:21:29.860 President Trump's

01:21:31.100 quote

01:21:31.600 when the looting starts

01:21:32.560 the shooting starts

01:21:33.480 tweet

01:21:33.860 while leaving untouched

01:21:35.560 Ayatollah Ali Khamenei's

01:21:37.360 tweets

01:21:37.700 calling for the destruction

01:21:39.060 of Israel

01:21:39.580 and Colin Kaepernick's

01:21:41.080 tweets supporting

01:21:41.800 the burning

01:21:42.380 of police precinct houses

01:21:43.880 claims

01:21:45.080 that the Democrats

01:21:46.240 stole the presidency

01:21:47.300 in 2020

01:21:48.180 are censored

01:21:48.940 while claims

01:21:49.900 that Russia 0.72

01:21:50.700 did the same

01:21:51.500 in 2016

01:21:52.320 go untouched

01:21:54.100 and of course

01:21:55.000 the truthful

01:21:55.440 Hunter Biden

01:21:56.040 laptop story

01:21:56.760 was suppressed

01:21:57.520 as misinformation

01:21:58.180 so such a good point

01:21:59.640 about the Russians

01:22:00.340 versus

01:22:01.140 the Democrats

01:22:02.740 right

01:22:03.120 such a good point

01:22:03.760 and this is an op-ed

01:22:05.500 so I can't

01:22:06.180 we could just go

01:22:06.700 we could write

01:22:07.200 an entire essay

01:22:08.420 on just the countless

01:22:09.600 list of hypocritical

01:22:10.720 examples that reveal

01:22:11.640 what's actually

01:22:12.300 happening here

01:22:12.960 is the enforcement

01:22:13.960 of a partisan agenda

01:22:15.060 rather than

01:22:16.280 a complicated

01:22:17.340 adjudication

01:22:18.240 of what content

01:22:19.200 moderation means

01:22:20.120 but that's the easy part

01:22:21.440 I still think

01:22:22.280 the question

01:22:22.680 you were getting at

01:22:23.240 before is

01:22:23.820 the harder question

01:22:24.780 which is interesting

01:22:25.440 to adjudicate

01:22:26.340 and talk about

01:22:26.940 let's just set

01:22:28.280 the rules of the road

01:22:28.980 and assume that

01:22:29.580 right wing people

01:22:30.240 run Twitter in the future

01:22:31.200 and then left wing people

01:22:32.020 run it in the future

01:22:32.580 kind of like our

01:22:33.120 federal government works

01:22:33.880 I would like to see

01:22:35.220 a platform in which

01:22:36.420 the rules of the road

01:22:37.700 and the kind of content

01:22:38.920 that makes it through

01:22:39.880 to everyday users

01:22:40.860 shouldn't vary

01:22:41.960 as a function

01:22:42.940 of who's actually

01:22:43.840 in charge

01:22:44.300 or the politics

01:22:44.880 of the person

01:22:45.540 who's in charge

01:22:46.480 and I guess

01:22:48.080 to pick up

01:22:48.980 the strand

01:22:49.360 of our last conversation

01:22:50.020 I'd love to hear

01:22:50.660 your thoughts

01:22:51.160 on this making

01:22:51.500 is what objection

01:22:53.160 would you have

01:22:54.200 you know

01:22:54.920 in having the position

01:22:55.700 that at least

01:22:56.040 you were taking

01:22:56.500 what objection

01:22:57.040 would you have

01:22:57.320 to the idea

01:22:57.680 that the user

01:22:58.380 can decide

01:22:59.080 for himself

01:22:59.500 or herself

01:23:00.060 whether or not

01:23:01.040 they want to see it

01:23:01.860 right

01:23:02.400 in a way

01:23:04.220 they already can

01:23:04.760 because you get

01:23:05.240 to choose

01:23:05.560 who you follow

01:23:06.140 and unfollow

01:23:07.040 so if you

01:23:08.200 you know

01:23:08.600 I actually have

01:23:09.500 a very funny story

01:23:10.200 about this

01:23:10.600 Vivek

01:23:10.960 you have a very funny

01:23:11.840 story about this

01:23:12.260 so when I was at Fox News

01:23:13.600 there was some account

01:23:14.780 and it tweeted out

01:23:16.120 some like thought of the day

01:23:17.260 it was like some

01:23:17.900 introspective

01:23:18.720 self-help type thing

01:23:19.760 I'm like oh

01:23:20.140 this sounds like

01:23:20.660 a good account

01:23:21.120 I'll follow them 0.99

01:23:21.820 and then

01:23:23.840 I was getting

01:23:25.560 into the elevator

01:23:26.360 at Fox News

01:23:27.060 and they tweeted

01:23:29.400 the same site

01:23:30.240 with which I was

01:23:30.960 becoming familiar

01:23:31.800 tweeted

01:23:32.640 and I quote

01:23:33.680 forgive me

01:23:34.200 for going there

01:23:34.840 the shocking truth

01:23:36.580 about anal sex 0.74

01:23:38.060 I was like

01:23:39.720 okay I need to

01:23:40.980 unfollow

01:23:41.440 I'm gonna need

01:23:43.300 to unfollow

01:23:43.820 and I literally

01:23:44.620 went to hit

01:23:45.600 unfollow

01:23:46.400 but instead

01:23:47.720 I accidentally

01:23:48.880 hit like

01:23:50.100 and I was getting

01:23:52.920 into the elevator

01:23:53.780 and so I couldn't

01:23:54.700 like unlike

01:23:55.340 it was too late

01:23:56.160 I was in the elevator

01:23:56.840 I was like oh my god

01:23:57.780 you know I was like

01:23:58.380 I just liked this tweet

01:24:01.020 and I didn't mean

01:24:01.520 to like this tweet

01:24:02.120 and thank god

01:24:03.880 by the grace of god

01:24:04.740 the you know

01:24:05.420 the black box

01:24:06.160 that is the elevator

01:24:06.880 didn't allow

01:24:08.120 the like

01:24:08.660 the mistake

01:24:09.660 oh is that right

01:24:10.380 okay that's good

01:24:10.880 to go through

01:24:11.300 so I dodged

01:24:12.040 my point is

01:24:13.700 you might have

01:24:14.020 had some unfollows too

01:24:14.980 and people would be

01:24:15.900 a little confused

01:24:16.440 about your new tastes

01:24:17.760 in content

01:24:18.640 could have been a story

01:24:19.780 about that

01:24:20.220 and my point is

01:24:21.240 we do have some control

01:24:22.080 we have control now

01:24:23.180 yeah we have some control now

01:24:24.680 I mean I think

01:24:25.320 that in a certain sense

01:24:26.400 you didn't have the control

01:24:27.240 to say that

01:24:28.120 there's a person

01:24:29.040 who you decided to follow

01:24:29.900 but within the people

01:24:30.700 you follow

01:24:31.100 are people who follow

01:24:31.800 President Trump

01:24:32.460 or people who follow

01:24:33.160 Ayanna Pressley

01:24:33.820 who says a lot of things

01:24:35.060 that may be closer

01:24:35.980 to incitement to violence

01:24:36.780 than what President Trump

01:24:37.520 has said in the past

01:24:37.940 it doesn't matter

01:24:38.700 you can even have it

01:24:39.460 on a content specific basis

01:24:41.440 you don't control

01:24:42.380 what someone else retweets

01:24:43.520 people don't necessarily

01:24:44.720 agree with everything

01:24:46.000 they retweet

01:24:46.540 but might put it out there

01:24:47.400 for people to see

01:24:48.060 if you don't want that

01:24:49.280 to disrupt

01:24:49.880 the flow of your day

01:24:51.200 or your experience

01:24:52.520 or your user experience

01:24:53.900 of the platform

01:24:54.540 you can

01:24:55.380 A

01:24:55.840 set your current settings

01:24:57.280 to be exactly

01:24:57.960 what it is with Twitter today

01:24:59.060 this would be

01:24:59.380 on my proposal to Elon

01:25:00.420 at least

01:25:00.720 leave that intact

01:25:01.500 don't tear that down

01:25:02.740 just create

01:25:03.820 a parallel experience

01:25:04.780 that allows people

01:25:05.420 to see what's

01:25:05.840 on the other side

01:25:06.340 of the veil

01:25:06.800 and even when you

01:25:08.000 create that parallel experience

01:25:09.120 you can use

01:25:09.960 your own behavior

01:25:10.900 to further train

01:25:11.980 what's exposed to you

01:25:13.360 and not

01:25:13.860 but that is different

01:25:15.140 from saying

01:25:15.720 that certain

01:25:16.340 a certain person

01:25:17.060 who's expressing

01:25:17.700 a viewpoint

01:25:18.280 however odious

01:25:19.520 that viewpoint was

01:25:20.780 about Jane Doe

01:25:22.220 that is still a viewpoint

01:25:23.680 that in our society

01:25:25.380 there's no such thing

01:25:26.660 as a false opinion

01:25:28.620 there are false facts

01:25:29.400 there are no false opinions

01:25:30.340 but when there are no false opinions

01:25:32.020 even if it's an odious opinion

01:25:33.360 it's one that a society

01:25:34.820 that protects free speech

01:25:35.860 has to be committed

01:25:36.740 to protecting

01:25:37.760 and I thought Elon

01:25:38.240 did a good job of this

01:25:39.140 you know

01:25:39.600 it's easy for him to say

01:25:40.620 but I thought he did

01:25:41.520 a good job of it nonetheless

01:25:42.240 to say that he believes

01:25:43.600 that the people

01:25:44.020 who are every bit as critical

01:25:45.220 harshly critical of him

01:25:46.240 should have a platform

01:25:47.200 on Twitter

01:25:47.620 just as he does

01:25:48.920 that's the culture

01:25:50.260 of free speech

01:25:50.960 on which this country

01:25:51.700 was built

01:25:52.120 it is a culture

01:25:52.920 that involves trade-offs

01:25:54.320 people have to remember

01:25:55.960 the free speech advocates

01:25:56.780 included

01:25:57.200 the world of free speech

01:25:59.420 is not a rose-colored

01:26:00.780 hunky-dory world

01:26:02.420 it is a challenging world

01:26:03.960 that exposes us

01:26:04.920 to many trade-offs

01:26:06.380 of the experiences

01:26:07.420 we face

01:26:08.100 the risks we take

01:26:09.040 by allowing people

01:26:09.780 to say what they want

01:26:10.800 and express the opinions

01:26:12.160 that they want to express

01:26:13.200 that has costs

01:26:15.060 but starting in 1787

01:26:16.880 and by my book

01:26:18.020 Every Bit

01:26:18.420 Holding True in 2022

01:26:19.680 those are the trade-offs

01:26:21.260 we accept

01:26:22.040 in return

01:26:22.980 for having an open

01:26:24.400 marketplace of ideas

01:26:25.360 that allows the best ideas

01:26:26.680 to win

01:26:27.140 that allows a democracy

01:26:28.360 to thrive

01:26:28.960 that allows the pursuit

01:26:30.120 of truth

01:26:30.720 to actually achieve

01:26:32.000 its goal

01:26:32.540 of adjudicating truth

01:26:33.720 because the thing is

01:26:34.480 if we have a policy

01:26:35.580 that says

01:26:35.960 you can't say the thing

01:26:36.820 about Jane Doe

01:26:37.500 like and you know

01:26:38.520 we should be bashing

01:26:39.820 in the faces of her

01:26:40.680 friends and relatives

01:26:41.780 or of her

01:26:42.380 if we ban that

01:26:44.360 then you're going

01:26:45.860 to open the door

01:26:46.780 to you know

01:26:47.720 the trans people saying

01:26:49.040 I you put me at risk

01:26:51.160 and my family at risk

01:26:52.320 when you say

01:26:52.960 I'm actually not a woman

01:26:54.340 right like that's

01:26:55.420 what they claim now

01:26:56.180 this is harm

01:26:56.920 you do violence to me

01:26:57.960 you threaten me

01:26:59.340 you you know

01:27:00.400 you're you're challenging

01:27:01.380 my very right to exist

01:27:02.720 and that's how they get

01:27:04.200 these sweeping bands

01:27:04.920 they take something

01:27:05.560 that seems objectively

01:27:06.360 reasonable

01:27:06.900 like you shouldn't be

01:27:07.980 calling for the bashing

01:27:08.860 in of somebody's face

01:27:09.780 and say

01:27:10.900 that's exactly the same

01:27:12.260 as you saying

01:27:14.020 I don't accept

01:27:15.160 your change

01:27:16.140 your claim

01:27:16.680 that you can change

01:27:17.500 biological sexes 0.99

01:27:18.420 or you can change genders

01:27:19.520 so it does become

01:27:21.100 a slippery slope

01:27:22.040 you almost want to

01:27:22.800 kind of just go with

01:27:23.640 what's

01:27:24.240 what it wouldn't be okay

01:27:25.620 for the federal government

01:27:26.420 to ban

01:27:26.920 Twitter can't ban

01:27:28.240 you know

01:27:28.600 I liked your original piece

01:27:29.940 with Jed

01:27:30.360 you know

01:27:30.920 a year plus ago

01:27:31.780 that we talked about

01:27:32.340 on our show

01:27:32.740 which is just treat them

01:27:33.500 like they're

01:27:34.240 like they're

01:27:34.680 essentially government

01:27:35.820 agencies

01:27:36.620 and they have to

01:27:37.540 follow the same rules

01:27:38.280 and then we have

01:27:38.860 jurisprudence

01:27:39.420 that we can just follow

01:27:40.100 to figure out

01:27:40.600 what's okay

01:27:40.980 and what's not

01:27:41.620 yeah

01:27:42.300 and that was an assumption

01:27:43.100 baked into this piece

01:27:44.020 that Elon would not be

01:27:45.320 a steward for the government

01:27:46.780 because historically

01:27:47.740 what's been happening

01:27:48.500 with these platforms

01:27:49.240 is that they're

01:27:49.900 absolutely deputized

01:27:51.120 by the party in power

01:27:52.240 in the United States

01:27:53.100 now the Democratic Party

01:27:53.900 to do through the back door

01:27:55.180 what government could not

01:27:56.120 do through the front door

01:27:57.220 and since nowadays

01:27:58.420 we have to describe

01:27:59.020 everything through a rhyme

01:27:59.980 the way I describe

01:28:00.780 this one is

01:28:01.340 you know

01:28:01.960 if the

01:28:03.100 what do you say

01:28:04.540 if it's state action

01:28:05.440 in disguise

01:28:06.100 the constitution

01:28:07.080 still applies

01:28:07.960 that's the principle there

01:28:09.180 actually

01:28:09.480 if you're really acting

01:28:10.520 on behalf of the state

01:28:11.280 then you're bound

01:28:12.020 by the constitution

01:28:12.660 that was what we published

01:28:13.580 in January 2021

01:28:14.320 now

01:28:15.320 this piece

01:28:16.620 was based on the assumption

01:28:17.440 that Elon Musk

01:28:18.260 is not going to be acting

01:28:19.320 as a pawn

01:28:20.060 for the ruling Democratic Party

01:28:21.600 in the United States

01:28:22.200 but he still has

01:28:23.120 some irreducible challenges

01:28:24.720 for how you make it

01:28:25.700 a user-friendly platform

01:28:26.900 that people want to use

01:28:27.700 while still protecting

01:28:28.660 free speech

01:28:29.180 this was sort of

01:28:29.860 a how-to guide

01:28:30.620 to accomplish that goal

01:28:32.420 but exactly

01:28:33.500 the more fundamental

01:28:34.540 first principle

01:28:35.320 it should go without saying

01:28:36.780 but maybe it's worth saying

01:28:37.760 nonetheless

01:28:38.040 is that the first principle

01:28:39.320 is that Elon Musk

01:28:40.360 should be crystal clear

01:28:41.680 that he will not be

01:28:42.840 censoring content

01:28:43.620 on behalf of the state

01:28:44.860 and Megan

01:28:45.640 it's worth remembering

01:28:46.400 I mean just think about

01:28:46.960 the context of what's going on

01:28:47.820 in the world right now

01:28:48.520 look at what's happening

01:28:49.240 in Russia

01:28:49.560 okay

01:28:49.980 this is in the news

01:28:51.180 there's a major war

01:28:51.780 playing out in Europe

01:28:53.040 a whole separate topic

01:28:54.120 we could talk about

01:28:55.100 another day

01:28:55.680 but let's think about

01:28:57.360 what Vladimir Putin

01:28:58.040 is doing in Russia

01:28:58.700 he has banned the BBC

01:29:00.120 he has banned

01:29:01.340 all kinds of misinformation

01:29:02.880 and as the state

01:29:04.600 the party in power

01:29:05.540 transparently saying

01:29:06.600 that there's misinformation

01:29:07.780 about the war in Russia

01:29:09.480 coming from the

01:29:10.420 toxic western media

01:29:11.900 his people aren't allowed 1.00

01:29:13.240 to see it

01:29:13.640 that is what an autocrat does

01:29:14.980 that is what gives us

01:29:16.240 the moral standing

01:29:17.080 to be on the other side

01:29:18.580 of that geopolitical struggle

01:29:20.340 but I worry about

01:29:21.880 living in a society

01:29:22.780 where actually

01:29:23.440 what we're doing here

01:29:24.700 in the name of

01:29:25.480 taking down hate speech

01:29:26.300 and misinformation

01:29:26.860 as decided

01:29:28.140 or at least influenced

01:29:29.260 by the party in power

01:29:30.200 isn't that much better

01:29:31.740 in some ways

01:29:33.060 it might even be worse

01:29:34.480 because at least

01:29:34.960 Vladimir Putin

01:29:35.640 bans it directly

01:29:36.700 whereas what we have here

01:29:38.140 in the United States

01:29:39.100 is a government

01:29:40.040 that pretends not to do that

01:29:41.260 but actually influences

01:29:42.620 private parties

01:29:43.340 through a combination

01:29:43.880 of threats

01:29:44.580 and inducements

01:29:45.720 and joint coordination

01:29:46.960 behind closed doors

01:29:47.920 to effectuate

01:29:48.920 a really similar outcome

01:29:50.420 and I hope

01:29:51.040 if there's one outcome

01:29:51.920 of this war in Ukraine

01:29:53.560 on the other side

01:29:54.560 of the world

01:29:55.860 it is that we still

01:29:57.320 look ourselves

01:29:58.040 in the mirror

01:29:58.540 to ask ourselves

01:29:59.380 what it is

01:29:59.920 that gives us

01:30:00.680 the moral authority

01:30:01.860 to stand up

01:30:02.760 to autocratic regimes

01:30:03.680 like Russia and China

01:30:04.940 and if we go through

01:30:05.920 this war ending

01:30:07.160 without us having gone

01:30:08.400 through that cycle

01:30:09.080 of introspection

01:30:10.140 I think it will be

01:30:11.140 a lost opportunity

01:30:11.980 for the rediscovery

01:30:12.980 of the few strands

01:30:14.520 of national identity

01:30:15.380 that still define

01:30:16.400 who it is that we are

01:30:17.700 as a people

01:30:18.300 it's not the color

01:30:19.460 of our skin

01:30:20.060 or even our shared heritage

01:30:21.380 because guess what

01:30:21.920 in this country

01:30:22.380 we don't have one

01:30:23.300 what we do have

01:30:24.260 is a set of shared values

01:30:25.460 and one of those values

01:30:26.760 was a commitment

01:30:27.880 to one side of the trade-off

01:30:29.360 that we set in motion

01:30:30.420 in that constitutional convention

01:30:31.520 of 1787

01:30:32.400 when we said

01:30:33.460 that we protect free speech

01:30:35.220 not because it is easy

01:30:36.580 but because it is worth preserving

01:30:38.840 that reminds me

01:30:41.020 of course we've had

01:30:41.700 the Biden administration

01:30:42.580 already say

01:30:43.020 they're concerned

01:30:43.960 they're concerned

01:30:44.800 about Elon's purchase

01:30:45.980 of Twitter

01:30:46.400 and this is

01:30:48.200 we have both Barack Obama

01:30:49.320 and Hillary Clinton 0.90

01:30:50.420 pushing for the online crackdown

01:30:52.520 on disinformation

01:30:53.580 Vivek

01:30:54.400 Hillary Clinton

01:30:56.180 she's

01:30:57.580 she's the 0.99

01:30:58.720 the biggest

01:30:59.480 and best purveyor

01:31:00.360 of disinformation

01:31:00.900 she's the one

01:31:01.560 who came up

01:31:01.940 with a whole

01:31:02.300 Russiagate lie

01:31:03.360 we know that now

01:31:04.940 it was repeated

01:31:06.500 by John Brennan

01:31:07.360 then head of the CIA

01:31:08.240 to Barack Obama

01:31:09.800 while he was

01:31:10.300 the sitting president

01:31:10.900 hey Hillary's

01:31:11.840 come up with this plan

01:31:13.140 it's a distraction

01:31:14.160 from her email scandal

01:31:15.380 she's going to say

01:31:16.900 that he has some ties

01:31:17.840 to Russia

01:31:18.380 to try to

01:31:19.180 undermine

01:31:19.980 the guy's candidacy

01:31:21.000 she

01:31:22.440 and Barack Obama

01:31:23.400 separately

01:31:23.800 now speaking out

01:31:24.480 about disinformation

01:31:25.340 online

01:31:25.780 pushing for the

01:31:26.440 for the Europeans

01:31:27.400 to crack down

01:31:28.680 on it

01:31:28.900 with their big tech

01:31:29.580 which they are

01:31:30.260 and Barack Obama

01:31:31.680 now making this

01:31:32.380 like the biggest platform

01:31:33.460 of his post-presidency push

01:31:34.860 that we need to crack down

01:31:35.840 on disinformation

01:31:36.460 what do you make of it

01:31:37.280 look this is a surprising

01:31:39.340 reversal of what used

01:31:40.560 to be a liberal concern

01:31:42.120 the idea that you might

01:31:43.520 have an Orwellian state

01:31:45.000 that suppressed

01:31:45.980 the free flow

01:31:46.700 of information

01:31:47.340 the idea of fighting

01:31:48.940 against that

01:31:49.480 was a liberal idea

01:31:50.880 whether this is a liberal

01:31:52.180 or idea

01:31:52.660 or conservative idea

01:31:53.820 today I don't really

01:31:54.520 care about the label

01:31:55.300 but it is interesting

01:31:56.600 just to see how far

01:31:57.960 these so-called

01:31:58.680 progressive movements

01:31:59.680 in this country

01:32:00.580 have come

01:32:01.280 and I also love

01:32:02.400 the shift

01:32:03.280 and the easy

01:32:04.280 the easy sort of

01:32:05.500 let's just say

01:32:06.300 conflation

01:32:06.920 of disinformation

01:32:08.100 and misinformation

01:32:08.920 which is also something

01:32:10.400 that you say the words

01:32:11.200 enough times

01:32:11.780 people start to view

01:32:12.660 them the exact same way

01:32:13.440 kind of like equality

01:32:14.260 and equity

01:32:14.720 but that's a

01:32:15.680 that's a game of language

01:32:16.700 jujitsu

01:32:17.260 but you know

01:32:18.120 what I would say here

01:32:18.760 is just imagine

01:32:19.560 the narrative

01:32:20.040 without saying

01:32:20.640 that this is

01:32:21.020 in the United States

01:32:21.800 that you have

01:32:22.520 a party in power

01:32:23.860 in the United States

01:32:25.020 that adopts

01:32:26.600 a false report

01:32:28.340 from one political

01:32:29.160 candidate

01:32:29.600 to attempt

01:32:30.820 to go so far

01:32:32.000 as to plant

01:32:32.900 a mole

01:32:33.420 in the opposition party

01:32:35.260 and then when

01:32:36.100 that opposition party

01:32:37.020 takes over

01:32:37.680 but then when you

01:32:38.580 regain power

01:32:39.360 four years later

01:32:40.240 you're also working

01:32:41.420 behind the scenes

01:32:42.160 to threaten

01:32:42.660 private companies

01:32:43.500 to take down

01:32:44.720 information

01:32:45.340 that otherwise

01:32:46.380 could prevent

01:32:47.000 the opposition party

01:32:47.800 from getting elected

01:32:48.460 and to take down

01:32:49.500 misinformation

01:32:49.920 that's defined

01:32:51.320 by the party in power

01:32:52.260 and to take down

01:32:52.980 hate speech

01:32:53.500 that the party in power

01:32:54.340 doesn't like

01:32:55.080 this would be something

01:32:56.200 out of a George Orwell novel

01:32:57.420 maybe it will be something

01:32:58.500 out of modern day Russia

01:32:59.360 or China

01:32:59.900 and yet reveal the curtain

01:33:02.120 and ask which country

01:33:02.840 is actually doing

01:33:03.400 that's a description

01:33:04.480 of modern day reality

01:33:05.620 here in the United States

01:33:07.060 of America

01:33:07.820 Megan

01:33:08.240 and I think that

01:33:08.880 that is chilling

01:33:09.840 I think it is chilling

01:33:10.940 and it is

01:33:11.700 am I disappointed

01:33:13.100 that it has to come

01:33:13.760 to an actor

01:33:14.260 in the private sector

01:33:15.320 or a set of actors

01:33:15.980 in the private sector

01:33:16.700 to be able to stand up

01:33:17.840 to this

01:33:18.080 which is fundamentally

01:33:18.660 a problem

01:33:19.120 with our civic culture

01:33:20.100 and even the state itself

01:33:21.300 yeah it's disappointing

01:33:22.400 that that's where we are

01:33:23.240 but at the end of the day

01:33:24.080 I think we're getting

01:33:24.760 pretty close

01:33:25.200 to the last line

01:33:26.020 of defense

01:33:26.500 on basic principles

01:33:28.300 like free speech

01:33:29.460 and open debate

01:33:30.040 is something that we preserve

01:33:31.040 and protect

01:33:31.860 from state intervention

01:33:33.020 or from state

01:33:34.040 corporate intervention

01:33:34.920 and there's by the way

01:33:35.620 a word for the merger

01:33:37.220 of state power

01:33:37.860 and corporate power

01:33:38.920 that is the definition

01:33:40.140 textbook definition

01:33:40.880 of fascism

01:33:41.480 I think that that's something

01:33:42.640 that we have to worry about

01:33:43.680 here on American soil

01:33:44.820 and as I hear these words

01:33:46.100 come out of my mouth 0.52

01:33:46.700 you know five years ago

01:33:48.020 I would have listened

01:33:49.400 to myself

01:33:49.780 and thought this sounds

01:33:50.360 like some kind

01:33:50.820 of conspiracy theorist

01:33:51.880 I wish this sort of conspiracy

01:33:53.320 if it weren't a reality

01:33:54.380 that I'm just describing

01:33:55.320 in plain language

01:33:56.080 it's not even hiding

01:33:57.100 in plain sight

01:33:57.660 it's lying

01:33:58.140 in plain sight

01:33:58.980 and I think that

01:33:59.680 that's part of what

01:34:00.740 makes a moment

01:34:01.380 like the takeover

01:34:02.580 of Twitter

01:34:02.980 and otherwise

01:34:03.660 you know

01:34:04.320 let's just say

01:34:04.900 mundane topic

01:34:06.000 for M&A takeover news

01:34:07.800 to have such

01:34:08.760 political importance

01:34:09.800 in where we are

01:34:10.600 as a culture today

01:34:11.420 and I do think

01:34:12.360 that's real

01:34:13.020 I think it's real

01:34:13.800 I need one word answer

01:34:15.080 because we're out of time

01:34:15.760 do you think the sale

01:34:16.680 will be completed

01:34:17.220 and Elon will buy it

01:34:18.260 yes

01:34:19.220 okay

01:34:20.380 all right now listen

01:34:21.420 Vivek has another book

01:34:22.500 coming out

01:34:22.840 it's called

01:34:23.120 Nation of Victims

01:34:23.920 it comes out later this year

01:34:24.960 you can pre-order it

01:34:25.920 right now

01:34:26.300 and you should

01:34:27.020 the subtitle is

01:34:27.680 Identity Politics

01:34:28.480 the Death of Merit

01:34:29.860 and the Path

01:34:31.000 Back to Excellence

01:34:32.380 hope you enjoyed

01:34:33.380 our in-depth discussion

01:34:34.720 of the Elon Musk

01:34:35.620 purchase of Twitter

01:34:36.640 which I agree

01:34:37.420 will happen

01:34:38.560 I want to tell you

01:34:39.700 that tomorrow

01:34:40.600 we've got independent

01:34:41.420 journalist Matt Taibbi

01:34:42.620 friend of the show

01:34:43.360 back with us

01:34:43.940 I'm really looking forward

01:34:44.960 to that

01:34:45.300 he speaks sense

01:34:46.900 I mean pretty much

01:34:48.540 reliably right

01:34:49.540 it's like you can't say

01:34:50.340 that about everything

01:34:50.960 in media

01:34:51.500 but Matt you can

01:34:52.880 and also tell you

01:34:54.280 that now is a great time

01:34:55.080 to download the show

01:34:55.800 if you haven't done so already

01:34:56.780 because tomorrow

01:34:57.860 we're going to drop

01:34:59.360 a special episode

01:35:01.320 just on the podcast feed

01:35:03.700 you know we do the show

01:35:04.380 live on Sirius

01:35:05.220 and we post on YouTube

01:35:06.400 and so on

01:35:06.880 we're doing something

01:35:07.700 special tomorrow

01:35:08.760 just on the podcast feed

01:35:10.900 you'll find out

01:35:11.840 what it is

01:35:12.380 if you subscribe

01:35:13.560 and then download

01:35:15.120 the Megan Kelly show

01:35:15.960 on Apple

01:35:16.500 Pandora

01:35:16.960 Spotify

01:35:17.400 Stitcher

01:35:18.180 wherever you get

01:35:18.740 your podcasts

01:35:19.320 for free

01:35:20.380 and we are looking

01:35:21.980 forward to bringing you

01:35:22.740 that content

01:35:23.520 you'll find out tomorrow

01:35:24.320 what it is

01:35:25.000 thanks for listening

01:35:27.740 to the Megan Kelly show

01:35:28.860 no BS

01:35:29.740 no agenda

01:35:30.500 and no fear

01:35:31.660 good...

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The Megyn Kelly Show - April 27, 2022

Elon Musk's Twitter Takeover, From All Angles, with Seth Dillon, Vivek Ramaswamy, and Peter Schiff ｜ Ep. 309

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