The Megyn Kelly Show - Epstein and Ghislaine, Possible Diddy Pardon, and Trump Suing WSJ, with MK True Crime Contributors

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00:00:31.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east.

00:00:42.980 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:46.120 Today, we have got a lot for you.

00:00:48.700 I have spent hours and hours preparing for today's show because it's True Crime Day

00:00:53.900 here at The M.K. Show as we prepare for the launch of the newest member of the M.K. Media Podcast Network family,

00:01:01.640 M.K. True Crime, our very first channel built around a whole host of contributors

00:01:06.400 and the ones that you will recognize from the nearly five years of The Megyn Kelly Show and going back even further from my time at Fox News.

00:01:15.620 I mean, when I was just a baby at Fox News and still named Megan Kendall, that was my first husband's last name,

00:01:21.340 we launched Kendall's Court and some of the folks who are now going to be participating in the M.K. True Crime channel would appear regularly with me on that thing.

00:01:32.120 I mean, we're going back to 2004, my friends.

00:01:34.860 We have got eight of our contributors joining me today.

00:01:39.780 There are many more who are going to join us on the channel, M.K. True Crime.

00:01:43.640 It's basically just a podcast feed that you can subscribe to.

00:01:46.920 OK, so we're calling it a channel, but it's just a podcast and you'll be getting their commentary on legal matters and hot cases.

00:01:54.700 And when there are, you know, cases that are being tried live that we can watch, they'll have regular updates for you there.

00:02:01.480 It's going to be twice a week feature to start. OK, but in any event, here's what to expect.

00:02:06.080 A little preview here from our M.K. True Crime. Watch.

00:02:10.400 Coming soon to the M.K. Media Podcast Network, M.K. True Crime.

00:02:15.640 All right, let's get moving. We got to go.

00:02:17.480 The FBI does not want you to be doing this interview.

00:02:19.960 The reason why is for my own safety.

00:02:22.240 Original shows, live trial coverage, in-depth investigations, expert legal analysis and more.

00:02:28.440 After stab number 16, that apparently wasn't enough for her.

00:02:32.100 With all of your Kelly's Court favorites for years at the Megyn Kelly Show.

00:02:36.440 Mark Garagos, Arthur Idala, Mark Eiglarsh, Dave Ehrenberg, Phil Holloway, Ashley Merchant, Jonna Spilboer and more.

00:02:44.520 We're going to be announcing soon.

00:02:46.280 Plus, yours truly.

00:02:47.840 Who that knows he's done this?

00:02:49.860 Sits willingly for a polygraph and an interview with police.

00:02:53.520 Hello.

00:02:53.720 M.K. True Crime launches August 6th on YouTube and all podcast platforms.

00:02:59.460 Subscribe now.

00:03:00.600 The truth is the truth.

00:03:01.700 We're going to find it one way or another.

00:03:04.780 Yeah, we are.

00:03:05.900 Okay, so go ahead and subscribe now.

00:03:08.440 All right, so you can go to a couple different places.

00:03:11.320 Wherever you're getting this podcast, just type in M.K. True Crime and it'll come up and you can subscribe.

00:03:16.360 It's like a new podcast feed that you can follow and it's going to have me and all of our friends doing legal commentary.

00:03:23.160 And then go to YouTube and on YouTube, you'll just type in M.K. True Crime.

00:03:28.860 It'll come up.

00:03:29.440 Okay, you can or you can just go to M.K. True Crime dot com and that'll have all the links for you.

00:03:33.820 So we've done three different ways for you to get it.

00:03:35.740 I think you're really going to enjoy it.

00:03:37.040 You're going to love the names and the legal commentators.

00:03:39.200 I this is not hyperbole.

00:03:41.640 There are no better.

00:03:43.220 Like these are the best in the legal commentary business or joining M.K. True Crime.

00:03:48.540 Everyone sees the potential in this.

00:03:50.420 Everybody knows how much our audience loves true crime and follows these cases and that it's a smarter approach to true crime.

00:03:58.440 It's not just true crime like Kohlberger and Diddy.

00:04:01.500 But we do, as you know, elevated legal analysis on things like Russiagate and Epstein, some of which are going to get today.

00:04:07.040 This is a panel we've intentionally chosen people who can do the full gamut.

00:04:11.240 Not everybody can.

00:04:12.220 But as I point out, I've been doing this for 20 years and I know who's great at it.

00:04:17.040 And we were very selective in who we offer this opportunity to.

00:04:20.320 And you're going to love them all.

00:04:22.060 You can completely trust them.

00:04:24.120 Okay.

00:04:24.580 So joining me today, two of our OG Kelly's Court favorites, Arthur Idala, who's managing partner of Idala Bertuna and Cayman's PC and host of the Arthur Idala Power Hour.

00:04:35.540 And also Mark Eiglarsh, he's a criminal defense attorney.

00:04:38.640 You can go find him at speaktomark.com.

00:04:41.700 They were both one-time prosecutors.

00:04:43.800 Now they're defense attorneys and do some civil work as well.

00:04:47.380 But before we bring them in and start talking about the latest cases, I want to bring you just an update on what just broke in the Jeffrey Epstein case in Congress.

00:04:58.680 All right.

00:04:58.940 It just broke.

00:04:59.900 Attorney General Pam Bondi ordering prosecutors to start.

00:05:04.200 Okay.

00:05:04.460 There's a couple of things because there's Epstein and then there's Russiagate.

00:05:07.440 First Attorney General Pam Bondi has ordered prosecutors to start a grand jury probe in the Obama administration's role in the Russiagate hoax.

00:05:16.600 Okay.

00:05:16.740 We've been covering this at length with Matt Taibbi and Aaron Maté and Glenn Greenwald.

00:05:21.680 So she's now officially opening a grand jury proceeding.

00:05:25.820 Who's the target?

00:05:27.220 What does she have in mind?

00:05:28.640 Who's likely to be charged?

00:05:30.580 We don't know exactly.

00:05:32.220 We have some theories.

00:05:33.700 And we are going to get to the Russiagate latest when Dave Ehrenberg joins us second hour.

00:05:40.460 But we're going to start this hour with the latest on another update that just broke, not from Pam Bondi, but from James Comer, who chairs the House Oversight Committee.

00:05:52.340 And has just subpoenaed basically every attorney general that ever was that's still living to come testify about Epstein and not just them, but Hillary and Bill Clinton, my God, and James Comey and Robert Mueller, both former FBI directors.

00:06:15.560 On the ex-attorneys general, we've got everyone from Alberto Gonzalez, under George W., to Jeff Sessions, who was Trump's, Bill Barr, who was Trump's, Eric Holder, who was Obama's, Loretta Lynch, who was Obama's, and Merrick Garland, who was Biden's.

00:06:31.300 O-M-G. 1.00

00:06:34.020 Will they show up and testify?

00:06:36.500 This is all about Epstein.

00:06:38.360 What will they say?

00:06:39.280 Today, Comer has also subpoenaed the Department of Justice for records related to Jeffrey Epstein's case.

00:06:47.540 I mean, he's gone wide with his net and is trying to get everyone and everything that knows anything about Jeffrey Epstein.

00:06:56.860 Joining us now to discuss it, Arthur and Mark.

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00:08:00.260 Arthur, so glad you're here for this because you represent Ghislaine Maxwell, so you have to follow this for your day job.

00:08:07.980 What's happening here?

00:08:08.940 What does this mean to you?

00:08:10.960 Okay, so let me just put it all in perspective.

00:08:14.540 So we have represented Ghislaine for probably the better part of two years.

00:08:19.120 We wrote, submitted, and argued her case, her trial where she was convicted in the Second Circuit Court of Appeals here in Manhattan, of which we lost.

00:08:30.800 Not surprisingly so.

00:08:32.840 And then my friend and colleague, David Marcus, he did the cert petition for the Supreme Court of the United States.

00:08:39.760 And he has handled, down in Florida, everything that we've heard going on with conversations with Ghislaine and all of that stuff.

00:08:47.840 I'll also tell you this, Megan, and you and I go back 21 years now.

00:08:51.780 So, and I think you'll understand this, when I've had the, I don't even know, hundreds of conversations with Ghislaine Maxwell, like, I don't ask her, like, oh, what happened on the island and who was there?

00:09:04.560 And it's really been all about her trial and how she was mistreated, like, where she was sleep deprived during her trial.

00:09:12.980 She was not able to eat food because she, those kinds of issues, evidence that was allowed in, evidence that wasn't allowed in, all of it.

00:09:21.320 And then, of course, there's this non-prosecution agreement.

00:09:24.080 So people who are calling me, my friends in the media and all around the world are just like, what happened?

00:09:29.560 Was Bill Clinton there?

00:09:30.800 And did she really have a threesome?

00:09:32.840 We do want to know.

00:09:34.460 Like, yeah, look, I get it.

00:09:36.900 But I know you know what professionals we all are.

00:09:39.740 Like, those are just not questions you need to ask a client who you're representing them on their appeal.

00:09:45.140 It's more about what happened in the courtroom during the trial.

00:09:47.740 So with that being said.

00:09:50.200 Quit holding out, Arthur.

00:09:51.400 Give us some details.

00:09:53.020 Spit it out.

00:09:53.880 With that being, you know, with that being said, I don't have, like, some magic information.

00:09:58.200 I do know what what the legal focus is, is whether the court of whether the United States Supreme Court is going to accept her case where some states in the United States of America say that when a. 0.84

00:10:13.940 Wait, wait, wait, wait, before you get to that, let me just set it up.

00:10:16.460 OK, her appeal is based on, at least in part, what's going up to the Supreme Court, you hope, because they can take it or reject it, is she says Jeffrey Epstein, when he struck that plea heart or that sweetheart deal plea deal in 2008, that there was a non prosecution agreement saying you.

00:10:33.160 The United States will not prosecute Jeffrey Epstein's associates in connection with these crimes that I'm pleading on, and he named four associates specifically, and Ghislaine, was she one of them?

00:10:48.580 No.

00:10:49.620 She wasn't one of them, but it had a catch all that seemed to suggest not.

00:10:54.720 It was like these four, but not limited to these four, will not be charged.

00:10:58.880 And so now you guys are saying this entire prosecution of Ghislaine in 2018, 19 was inappropriate because Jeffrey Epstein basically covered her with that sweetheart plea deal that he struck back in 08.

00:11:11.300 The other side's disagreeing that that applies to Ghislaine, and they're also arguing the government, federal government right now, this attorney general's office is arguing, when we said the United States won't prosecute, we only meant the Southern District of Florida.

00:11:24.000 We did not mean the Southern District of New York or any other U.S. attorney's office.

00:11:29.400 So those are the two big things that are being appealed, and the Supreme Court's got to decide whether that non-prosecution agreement can be interpreted the way you guys are arguing or should be interpreted the way the government is arguing, and there's a split in the underlying circuits on the law.

00:11:45.580 Correct.

00:11:45.980 Correct.

00:11:47.120 So just so people understand what that means, certain states of the United States of America acknowledge that Ghislaine should be covered under that, and other states say no, it only pertains to the district where the cooperation agreement is signed.

00:12:00.340 And those are the types of the cases that the Supreme Court of the United States of America is supposed to take when different states or different circuits are contradicting each other.

00:12:10.160 So they're supposed to be the tiebreaker.

00:12:11.980 However, to be blunt, all of this notoriety around Ghislaine the last two months, I think, I've already said on your show, I think the chances of her being heard in the Supreme Court are diminished by her name recognition, and now that's even more so.

00:12:29.420 Do you really think Chief Justice Roberts wants to get in the middle of the Jeffrey Epstein thing?

00:12:34.540 They're having enough problems with their reputation.

00:12:36.920 This is not going to help her.

00:12:38.100 This is only going to hurt.

00:12:38.900 There's that, Arthur.

00:12:41.000 But also the question is, is this a large enough issue that affects that many people that the Supremes want to take on their docket, a very limited docket?

00:12:53.460 I'd like them to selfishly.

00:12:55.280 I'm making deals in federal court every day.

00:12:57.720 And when prosecutors say we're not going to do something, I don't think, well, wait a second.

00:13:02.740 Do you work for a different government?

00:13:04.520 Aren't you all under the same employer?

00:13:06.380 You mean somehow, somewhere else, they could violate this agreement, this contract that you and I have?

00:13:13.140 But that said, I don't know that the Supremes are going to think that this has that kind of far-reaching effect and take it on their docket.

00:13:19.460 Just to make clear for the audience listening at home, just to just make clear, there's a split in the underlying circuits right underneath the U.S. Supreme Court on whether when the government agrees that it's not going to prosecute you.

00:13:29.960 Like I was saying, it's agreeing for the entire federal government in all jurisdictions, or it's only agreeing in your jurisdiction that you currently have this legal issue in.

00:13:40.440 And Ghislaine and Arthur are arguing when it says the United States will not prosecute, it means the United States government, period, in any jurisdiction.

00:13:48.680 And there are some federal district or federal circuit courts of appeal that have agreed with that.

00:13:54.640 But unfortunately for Ghislaine and Arthur, there's another set of federal courts of appeal that have said, no, it only means the one limited jurisdiction in which the criminal case at issue was brought.

00:14:05.180 So this would be the kind of thing the U.S. Supreme Court might take up because it's its job to resolve splits in the circuits, but it only would take it if it's like a big enough case and the right case.

00:14:19.820 And it depends on how sharp the split is, how recent the split is.

00:14:24.100 And basically, it seems like this is not the best vehicle to get the split issue resolved, Arthur, that on top of the publicity of having it be Ghislaine Maxwell, the Supreme Court and John Roberts.

00:14:35.620 Yeah, I agree with you. Probably won't want to touch that with a 10-foot pole. Go ahead.

00:14:38.820 No, just so folks understand, when you make this agreement, when they made this agreement down in Florida, and Mark can attest to this as well,

00:14:49.060 when you make these big agreements that really matter, they always tell us, the defense attorneys, well, this has to go to Washington to be approved by the attorney general of the United States of America.

00:15:02.260 And that happened here.

00:15:03.780 That happened here.

00:15:04.620 Correct. Correct.

00:15:05.660 So it's like just the local prosecutor is saying this, and someone can say, well, how could a guy in Florida handcuff someone in Manhattan?

00:15:16.560 And they can't. But the attorney general of the United States of America, who they all work for.

00:15:20.820 Main justice can.

00:15:22.500 Main justice can. And that was our argument to the Second Circuit. And I'll be blunt.

00:15:27.340 They weren't buying it, like, for a second. Because in the Second Circuit, their position is, no, you can only handcuff whatever circuit you're in.

00:15:35.840 Yeah. And the problem is, it sounds very fact-specific.

00:15:38.720 In other words, Arthur has very unique facts, like, that it ran up to the highest in that department.

00:15:47.160 And, you know, the Supreme Court, they're not going to get involved in something that just has appeal to this particular defendant.

00:15:55.000 Well, and on that front, another unique thing about Ghislaine's appeal is, normally, it's the guy who signed with the government.

00:16:04.640 It's the guy who got off the hook.

00:16:06.320 Like, this would be a more typical case if it were Jeffrey Epstein saying, you can't prosecute me.

00:16:12.400 You signed a non-prosecution agreement with me back in 2008.

00:16:15.860 But this is not Jeffrey Epstein. It's an associate of his.

00:16:20.060 And on top of that, it's an associate who wasn't specifically named in the non-prosecution agreement.

00:16:25.520 And so these are all excuses for the Supreme Court to say, this one's not the right one for us to resolve this issue.

00:16:33.340 Because they do. Do they have enough heat coming down on them every day thanks to all these Trump rulings?

00:16:38.800 Now we're going to get Russiagate rulings. We're going to get, does Obama have immunity?

00:16:42.700 All this stuff is about to come to them.

00:16:44.360 And they don't want to touch hot-button political issues if they don't have to.

00:16:48.640 And this one's about as hot as they come.

00:16:50.080 All right, let me shift gears and ask you guys, as just people who are members of the criminal bar,

00:16:55.380 what's going to happen in response to all these subpoenas?

00:17:00.860 It's the House Oversight Committee.

00:17:03.140 They've issued valid subpoenas.

00:17:05.940 Generally, if you blow off a subpoena that you get from the House of Representatives,

00:17:10.620 they refer you to the DOJ for prosecution.

00:17:14.360 If they want to.

00:17:15.560 And if they can prove you're not complying, you could wind up going to jail like Peter Navarro or Steve Bannon.

00:17:22.520 So I was going to say, my client Steve Bannon wound up doing some time in jail because he wasn't going to go in there.

00:17:29.040 But I mean, Mark could explain.

00:17:30.900 There are procedures and they have to have cause.

00:17:33.800 They can't just start issuing subpoenas to Megyn Kelly and Mark Aguilar.

00:17:37.940 There needs to be supporting probable cause.

00:17:42.000 I don't know if that's the correct standard to bring Bill Clinton in.

00:17:45.480 You can't just bring him in on a whim because the New York Post is reporting that Ghislaine may have said A, B, or C.

00:17:54.260 Yeah, this is going to be challenged.

00:17:56.400 These people are not going to ignore the subpoenas.

00:17:58.380 They're going to get great lawyers like Arthur who will then argue that this is harassment.

00:18:04.360 There's no real purpose for them to come in and try to get that subpoena quashed.

00:18:09.920 They'll go into a federal district court and make those objections?

00:18:12.180 I think so.

00:18:15.160 Yeah, I think that's the appropriate place.

00:18:16.680 I've never done it, but yeah.

00:18:19.040 Because they need somebody to slap Comer's hand.

00:18:21.700 I mean, obviously, if they object to Comer, he's going to say overruled, come in here.

00:18:25.760 But I mean, we're talking about heavy hitters, you know, Bill and Hillary Clinton.

00:18:29.840 Like, they're definitely going to fight.

00:18:32.160 Like, what does Loretta Lynch have to do with any of this?

00:18:34.720 I mean, look, I should see them calling in the attorney.

00:18:36.200 She may know a lot.

00:18:37.060 She definitely knows a lot about Russiagate and Hillary Clinton.

00:18:39.580 I mean, I like when I first saw these names, I was like, I want to talk to all these people

00:18:43.340 about Russiagate.

00:18:44.340 And then I realized, wait, this is an Epstein list, which makes sense.

00:18:48.440 Like Alberto Gonzalez, that makes sense.

00:18:50.380 He was the AG when they signed that that sweetheart plea deal in 2008.

00:18:55.460 So I get that.

00:18:56.320 That's the one that would be relevant.

00:18:57.900 He's probably.

00:18:58.600 Can I ask you guys something?

00:19:00.560 All of this stuff, all of the effort, the Clinton, this and that, all this stuff.

00:19:06.520 Don't we really care at the end of the day who was harming children with Epstein?

00:19:12.640 Do you really think that this circus is ever going to get down to that?

00:19:16.360 I feel like we're we're back to when Geraldo opened up Al Capone's vault and there was nothing

00:19:21.180 in there and we waited with anticipation. 0.72

00:19:24.060 I feel like it's the same damn thing with this subject matter. 0.64

00:19:27.140 I see what you're saying.

00:19:28.020 I don't think this is the list that you would subpoena if you actually wanted answers in

00:19:33.480 the Epstein case.

00:19:34.180 Like I.

00:19:34.920 Right.

00:19:35.600 So what are we doing?

00:19:36.520 I actually don't even think it's witness testimony that they need.

00:19:39.160 I think including your client, Elaine, I think what they need is documents.

00:19:43.340 You know, I mean, what we really need to see is what the hell was an Epstein safe? 0.90

00:19:47.400 You know what?

00:19:48.320 What was found and seen when the FBI conducted the raid of Epstein's properties early on in

00:19:56.260 2019 because they didn't take the stuff and then they had to go back like that stuff might

00:20:00.660 actually tell us something.

00:20:01.500 I'm not sure James Comey is going to know what we need to know.

00:20:05.480 And I have even more doubts about, I don't know, Merrick Garland, Jeff Sessions, Jeff Sessions.

00:20:11.340 All these people sound relevant to me on Russiagate.

00:20:13.400 And I wonder if this is some sort of backdoor way of getting testimony on Russiagate.

00:20:17.460 Anyway, your thoughts on it, Arthur.

00:20:18.800 My thoughts are this.

00:20:22.560 The first of all, Mark said what a lot of people are saying, children and pedophilia,

00:20:28.560 the charges against Epstein, everything you mentioned against Elaine, it was never pedophilia.

00:20:33.220 It was never 13, 14, 15.

00:20:36.100 They were all overage.

00:20:37.280 They were all they were young.

00:20:38.860 They were 18, 19, 20.

00:20:40.880 But everyone has.

00:20:41.660 Wait a minute, because he pleaded guilty to solicitation of.

00:20:45.100 Yeah.

00:20:45.340 OK, but let's not let's not fool the audience.

00:20:47.800 He did like the 14 year olds.

00:20:49.340 That is true.

00:20:50.380 And I know that.

00:20:51.500 And I know that from somebody very close to the case.

00:20:53.580 Now, he would try to find one that looked older.

00:20:56.700 But if given his choice, Jeffrey Epstein would take a 14 year old all day long.

00:21:00.940 There is a question about whether he wanted a four year old.

00:21:05.420 And we are still wondering about that because the FBI says it has tens of thousands of videos

00:21:09.980 of him looking at actual child pornography, like, you know, forgive me.

00:21:14.620 Of course, Mark's way of saying it.

00:21:16.300 Mark's correct.

00:21:17.180 The ultimate goal is to see if any of these people, these names bandied about,

00:21:22.260 were involved in molesting children.

00:21:25.160 But we also know, and I compliment the Department of Justice,

00:21:28.260 who are not just releasing a bunch of names that they've found and are associated

00:21:33.040 just to tarnish people who have who haven't done anything wrong.

00:21:37.680 And look, Megan, you've covered it extensively.

00:21:39.400 I mean, look what happened to Dershowitz.

00:21:41.220 This woman blamed on their oath in writings all over the place. 0.56

00:21:45.840 She had sex with him multiple times in multiple locations and ultimately said,

00:21:50.500 I may have been mistaken.

00:21:51.880 And you know how it has destroyed Alan Dershowitz and his reputation

00:21:56.580 and everything that he worked for, for all of those years.

00:21:59.740 And let's face it, Arthur.

00:22:01.080 I mean, with all due respect to Virginia Dufresne, God rest her.

00:22:04.840 She lied about a lot.

00:22:06.300 I mean, she's the number one victim that they put out there as like the Epstein victim.

00:22:10.840 And I believe she was a victim of Jeffrey Epstein, but she lied about a lot.

00:22:16.300 And now people want to like resurrect her word like it's the word of Mother Teresa.

00:22:20.800 And it really wasn't.

00:22:23.020 Megan, she lied so much that she did not testify in Ghislaine Maxwell's trial.

00:22:27.960 She was interviewed by the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI.

00:22:31.320 After they spoke to her, he was not a witness.

00:22:34.740 And there's that famous picture of her and Prince Andrew.

00:22:37.000 And Ghislaine's right in the picture.

00:22:38.860 So if she had any kind of truth coming out of her mouth,

00:22:42.880 you know they would have thrown her on the stand and they did.

00:22:45.100 And Megan, to Arthur's point, what I fear is that this inquiry that they're conducting

00:22:51.500 may at best get you to more people who hung around Jeffrey Epstein.

00:22:57.200 So what?

00:22:58.300 The inference, however, is going to be that they did nefarious things with children.

00:23:03.340 And we saw what happened to Dershowitz.

00:23:05.120 There's no innocent way of your name being mentioned in this arena.

00:23:09.540 And then even when it's found that the person lied,

00:23:12.660 somehow you get your name back in whole.

00:23:15.200 You don't.

00:23:16.160 So my concern is, what are we really going to get out of this?

00:23:19.640 Because there's a downside to everybody hung out with Epstein.

00:23:23.260 You know, there's a report out today from The New York Times.

00:23:25.480 It's a look inside of Jeffrey Epstein's Manhattan lair.

00:23:29.180 And they've gotten pictures of his famous, they call it a townhouse.

00:23:33.400 It's a mansion, which is a stone's throw from Central Park,

00:23:37.940 sold to Epstein in 1998 by Leslie Wexner.

00:23:41.640 I have lots of questions about this guy, Les Wexner.

00:23:45.240 A lot.

00:23:46.000 He owns, owned, I don't know if he still owns, Victoria's Secret, The Limited.

00:23:50.260 He was like this with Jeffrey Epstein.

00:23:53.020 Pals, like two peas in a pod.

00:23:55.140 And seemed to really take care of Jeffrey financially.

00:23:59.920 Unclear to me why, because Epstein didn't have particular expertise that Wexner would have needed.

00:24:06.120 In any event, in this mansion, I'm going to get to the part about, you know, the people who they point out were in it.

00:24:14.580 But they write, dozens of framed prosthetic eyeballs lined the entryway.

00:24:20.200 A sculpture of a woman wearing a bridal gown and clutching a rope was suspended in the central atrium.

00:24:26.140 Look at this bizarreness for the listening audience.

00:24:28.700 I don't even know how to describe this.

00:24:30.180 It looks like a mannequin in a wedding gown sliding down like a rope, like a fireman's rope.

00:24:35.900 It's bizarre and creepy, and you would really want to turn around and walk out if you walked into somebody's lobby like this foyer.

00:24:41.900 They show guests sat in leopard print chairs around a large rectangular table.

00:24:47.160 Occasionally, a magician would perform.

00:24:50.040 He preserved a map of Israel drawn on a chalkboard with Mr. Barak's signature.

00:24:55.180 That was his good buddy, Ehud Barak, who visited Epstein scores of times.

00:25:00.080 Photos show a credenza crowded with framed snapshots,

00:25:03.540 flaunting Mr. Epstein's connections to some of the world's most recognizable people.

00:25:07.560 There was Epstein smiling along, Pope John Paul II.

00:25:11.220 Second, I think it's fair to say none of us suspect Pope John Paul,

00:25:15.580 although I recognize the Catholic Church has had some issues.

00:25:19.280 Mick Jagger, Elon Musk, Fidel Castro, Larry Summers, President Bill Clinton, Richard Branson,

00:25:27.000 Mr. Trump, and Melania Trump.

00:25:31.220 A framed dollar bill signed by Bill Gates, possibly as payment of a bet,

00:25:35.980 because written on the dollar bill is, I was wrong.

00:25:39.040 They go on, there was a taxidermied tiger lounging on a lush rug.

00:25:44.600 In the office, he showcased a green first edition of Lolita. 0.50

00:25:49.260 Ew, disgusting.

00:25:50.900 We all know why he liked that book.

00:25:53.180 Atop a wooden sideboard were more framed photos,

00:25:56.460 including one of Mr. Epstein with Saudi Arabia's crown prince, Muhammad bin Salman.

00:26:00.800 Another flight up, up to the third floor, his sanctum,

00:26:03.420 a suite that included his bedroom, the mansion's infamous massage room,

00:26:06.900 and a cluster of bathrooms.

00:26:08.860 Mounted in a corner above his bed, a surveillance camera.

00:26:12.780 And you can clearly see it on the photos that they're showing.

00:26:15.820 We're showing them here on youtube.com slash Megan Kelly.

00:26:18.680 You can see it there in the corner.

00:26:22.060 Let's see.

00:26:22.980 A second camera can be seen in an adjoining room.

00:26:26.300 Several victims have said the mansion was outfitted with a network of hidden video cameras.

00:26:30.120 In the massage room, paintings of naked women, a large silver ball and chain,

00:26:35.080 and shelves stocked with lube, according to photos reviewed by the Times.

00:26:39.420 I mean, it's another ditty situation.

00:26:41.620 Nothing but lube and baby oil everywhere.

00:26:44.260 No surveillance cameras were visible, however, in the photos of the massage room,

00:26:48.680 which is interesting.

00:26:50.520 And I don't know what that means.

00:26:51.900 But that's just a list of the people, Arthur, who were on the credenza in photos.

00:26:59.400 Michael Wolff gave an interview recently saying he walked in.

00:27:01.980 The Dalai Lama was there.

00:27:03.760 I mean, if they really did just start releasing

00:27:06.560 the names of anybody they found, quote,

00:27:09.880 in the Epstein files, it would feel very much like Salem.

00:27:14.100 Exactly.

00:27:17.580 And the world we live in now, and what Mark said, is like, it doesn't matter.

00:27:22.340 The truth doesn't matter.

00:27:24.400 All of a sudden, you become from the famous lawyer or the famous actress or the famous

00:27:30.000 politician.

00:27:31.080 Oh, yeah, that's it's a Jeffrey Epstein guy, right?

00:27:33.580 He was hanging out with Epstein.

00:27:35.940 The real question for me, Megan, is this guy Epstein from Coney Island.

00:27:41.060 How did he accumulate this wealth at such a relatively young age?

00:27:47.220 He clearly had enormous wealth.

00:27:49.580 That that was his magnet, right?

00:27:51.120 Why are they all hanging out with him?

00:27:52.600 I mean, I don't know why Mick Jagger's hanging out with him on one end and the Dalai Lama 1.00

00:27:57.720 on the other end.

00:27:58.920 You know, he would invite people.

00:28:00.040 You want to come on my plane?

00:28:01.000 You want to come to my private island?

00:28:02.760 You know, Geraldo used to do that with his island in Puerto Rico.

00:28:06.160 But, you know, when you go there, you just drink a lot of rum.

00:28:08.820 Not fooling around with a bunch of young ladies. 1.00

00:28:11.460 But, you know, I mean, when Dershowitz went to the island, he went with his wife and his

00:28:14.580 12-year-old daughter.

00:28:16.360 That's when he was the one time he was on the island.

00:28:18.360 That's verified.

00:28:18.960 Once you have a couple of connections, like once you say you're hanging out with Prince

00:28:24.560 Andrew or the president of MIT, you can get, as the lady said, the mother in Pride and

00:28:32.100 Prejudice, that will open the door to other rich men. 0.75

00:28:35.240 I mean, it's just need a couple, Mark.

00:28:37.000 And then they all come flocking.

00:28:38.180 How many people said during the Diddy investigation and then the trial, how many other celebrities

00:28:45.860 were at his parties?

00:28:47.340 That became the question.

00:28:49.440 But that wasn't the right question.

00:28:50.960 Merely because they attended a white party, you know, everybody's wearing white, hanging 0.96

00:28:55.440 out, didn't mean that they were lubing it up at the freak-offs.

00:28:58.880 And that's what's happening here.

00:29:00.720 Merely because they're on his private plane or even went to his island doesn't mean that

00:29:05.140 they were privy to the freakish criminal acts that he was engaged in.

00:29:09.420 Megan, can I ask you the question that Mark touched on?

00:29:13.080 Who would know, though?

00:29:13.340 Who would know the answers to these questions?

00:29:15.580 Does anyone in this panel represent such a person who might actually know the answers

00:29:20.380 to these questions?

00:29:23.100 Oh, aha!

00:29:24.940 Right.

00:29:25.480 But Megan, here's the ultimate question, really.

00:29:27.900 And Mark touched on it.

00:29:29.480 There's so much stuff going on in the world, Ukraine and Gaza and 13 million American kids

00:29:36.920 going to sleep starving.

00:29:38.800 Like, why are we so infatuated?

00:29:41.480 The Epstein thing, he's dead, what, five years now, right?

00:29:44.220 It's six years.

00:29:45.320 2019 is going to be this month.

00:29:47.720 Like, why all of a sudden?

00:29:49.820 Is it because of Trump?

00:29:51.260 Is it because of that happy birthday card that we're going to talk about next with the

00:29:54.840 lawsuit?

00:29:55.160 How about that interview where Pam Bondi tempted us?

00:29:59.920 She said the, you know, incorrect words.

00:30:02.120 She meant just the files on my desk.

00:30:03.800 But she led all of us to believe erroneously, maybe, that there is a list.

00:30:09.800 And we all wanted that list because we like justice.

00:30:13.100 Anybody who harms children should be prosecuted.

00:30:15.880 We should know who those people are.

00:30:17.740 Oh, sorry.

00:30:18.320 It wasn't the list.

00:30:19.100 It was a file that was on my desk.

00:30:20.560 So the pitchforks were up, right?

00:30:23.360 I didn't mean it.

00:30:23.880 Yes.

00:30:24.020 And and honestly, and I think most people, you know, the left right now is taking advantage

00:30:28.300 of that ridiculous Wall Street Journal report like Trump's in and Elon tweeted Trump's in

00:30:32.700 the Epstein files.

00:30:33.300 And I think Trump's 100 percent in the Epstein files in the insofar as the Dalai Lama is in

00:30:38.200 there.

00:30:38.620 And, you know, like he was a friend of his.

00:30:39.960 So he's got his name is probably in there in some fashion.

00:30:42.540 That doesn't tell us anything.

00:30:43.660 In what capacity?

00:30:44.860 What did he do?

00:30:45.940 Was he was he somebody being funneled, barely legal girls by Jeffrey Epstein?

00:30:50.780 I've never seen anything to suggest a whiff of that.

00:30:52.980 Um, but I also think there's a genuine, genuine interest in, you know, whether there are pedophiles

00:31:01.340 or pedophile adjacent powerful men in this country who are powerful enough that people

00:31:07.160 just keep covering for them. 0.83

00:31:08.260 And let's face it, you know, I mean, I casually referenced the pedophile scandal of the Catholic 1.00

00:31:13.440 Church.

00:31:13.740 It's one of the biggest scandals of the past 50 years.

00:31:17.260 Arthur's Catholic.

00:31:18.060 I'm Catholic.

00:31:18.720 Like it's a stain on a church we love.

00:31:21.620 And then there's no question that there's been a pedophile behavior in Hollywood for a number

00:31:27.260 of years and certain powerful people.

00:31:29.320 And like, look at the story that came out this year, last year on Nickelodeon and what

00:31:34.140 was going on in just one show alone.

00:31:35.980 Like this does happen at very high levels and people are horrified by it.

00:31:42.200 And it, they have a feeling that if you have enough money and enough connections, you can

00:31:47.400 get away with it.

00:31:48.480 So that's another like very strong driving force that plus a general distrust of the

00:31:53.360 elites and a demand that someone like Trump bust up these circles as opposed to protect

00:31:58.700 them.

00:31:59.020 So that's the short version.

00:32:00.140 I don't want to keep debating.

00:32:00.780 None of those stories you just mentioned, Megan.

00:32:02.040 All of those stories put together.

00:32:03.700 All of a sudden that the Catholic church and Nickelodeon, all of them put together have 0.85

00:32:08.340 not garnered the publicity that Epstein has garnered.

00:32:12.460 I can tell you from my own phone, you guys know I've had some high profile cases.

00:32:17.020 They're going crazy about Ghislaine.

00:32:18.660 They don't care about Harvey.

00:32:20.260 They don't care about Steve Bannon.

00:32:21.700 They don't care about these other times, Rudy Giuliani.

00:32:23.580 Because it's still a mystery.

00:32:25.040 They're out of their minds for.

00:32:27.480 Yeah, because this one still is a mystery.

00:32:29.440 And if that's why, if there would just be full disclosure and you could redact names for

00:32:33.400 which there was no actual accusation or actual evidence supporting possible charges, I understand

00:32:38.840 the Dalai Lama doesn't need to be dragged through this.

00:32:43.060 But there is a way of releasing more information and they haven't done it.

00:32:46.220 And I will say again, I think it's documents and whatever videotape evidence that could be

00:32:50.380 released.

00:32:50.700 No one wants to see actual kiddie porn.

00:32:53.180 But I don't think it's witness testimony.

00:32:55.000 I just I don't have a ton of hope about this list.

00:32:58.120 Maybe I'm wrong.

00:32:59.060 We'll wait and find out.

00:33:00.240 OK, you mentioned it just in passing.

00:33:03.400 Quickly, on this Wall Street Journal lawsuit, Trump has filed a 10 billion dollar lawsuit

00:33:08.700 against the Wall Street Journal for publishing that he sent Jeffrey Epstein a letter that was

00:33:13.500 bawdy for Epstein's 50th birthday.

00:33:16.120 And it had like, isn't it great to share secrets or some line about that?

00:33:19.540 Trump has totally denied that he wrote it.

00:33:21.420 And it's a kind of an interesting case, you guys, because Trump is saying, I did not write

00:33:25.820 it.

00:33:26.040 He said to the Wall Street Journal when they went to him for comment before they printed it,

00:33:29.060 Mark, it was not me.

00:33:30.700 I didn't write it.

00:33:31.520 That's not mine.

00:33:32.840 Don't print that.

00:33:34.000 That's a lie.

00:33:34.840 And the journal felt they had it, you know, to the point where they could report it.

00:33:39.140 And they did.

00:33:39.980 And now he's suing them for defamation.

00:33:42.140 So how does the court resolve that?

00:33:45.380 Because I don't know that the journal can prove that Trump did write this.

00:33:51.040 And Trump's going to go in there and swear under oath that he didn't.

00:33:55.300 I don't think they need to prove that, as you know, because you're very familiar with

00:33:59.500 this line of law.

00:34:00.760 The issue is not whether it's true or not, because they get it wrong all the time.

00:34:05.240 The issue is whether Trump, probably the most popular man in the land, can prove actual malice.

00:34:13.600 They get it wrong all the time.

00:34:15.320 The question is, did they know that it was wrong or a reckless disregard of the truth?

00:34:21.340 So it starts, the analysis does, with Trump saying, before you publish it, it's not me.

00:34:26.640 You need to realize I didn't do it.

00:34:29.100 That either means that he did do it and he's saying he didn't do it, or he really didn't

00:34:33.020 do it.

00:34:33.680 So they better investigate before they put that out there.

00:34:36.980 And they did, supposedly, and they believe they have a good faith basis to publish it.

00:34:42.420 That's the problem for Trump.

00:34:44.120 His handwriting is, you know, easily attainable, right?

00:34:48.620 I mean, Mark and I are involved in cases where there were subpoenas or search warrants,

00:34:53.400 actually, for people's handwriting because they need to compare it.

00:34:55.960 Trump's handwriting is everywhere.

00:34:57.240 It's not hard to do an analysis of, OK, here's the card on one hand, and then here's the handwriting

00:35:03.300 We don't know if they have the card.

00:35:03.640 We don't know if they have some kind of a picture of the card.

00:35:07.580 Well, they describe something, but we don't know if it actually exists.

00:35:11.700 Maybe it was just described to their reporters.

00:35:14.500 They did not include the image in their reporting.

00:35:16.460 They did not represent that they had actually laid eyes on it.

00:35:19.020 So we actually don't know.

00:35:22.920 OK, now, you know, that's a case.

00:35:24.920 That's what litigation is all about.

00:35:27.660 I mean, they are not reckless.

00:35:30.480 I mean, The Wall Street Journal, in my opinion, they're not a reckless reporting agency.

00:35:36.380 And they know Trump is is litigious, litigious. 0.91

00:35:40.300 Right.

00:35:40.560 I mean, they just got millions from CBS.

00:35:43.320 Of course, Colbert, his job.

00:35:45.080 And ABC.

00:35:46.140 They vetted this, Megan.

00:35:48.580 And again, no one knows with 100 percent certainty whether something's authentic.

00:35:53.360 No one could ever know that.

00:35:54.980 But that's not the standard, unfortunately.

00:35:56.980 Again, if they do they believe it's a file or have they recklessly discarded, recklessly

00:36:05.000 disregarded whether it's true or false.

00:36:07.360 That's the standard when you're when you're a public figure suing over defamation.

00:36:10.960 And also the problem for Trump is that when you are commenting on a matter of public concern

00:36:15.980 about a public figure, you have the most protection you can get.

00:36:20.360 So this wasn't actually a comment about Trump's personal life.

00:36:23.980 It was more a report about a story that's in the news tied to whether Trump as president

00:36:30.860 might be covering up, you know, the Epstein story.

00:36:34.080 So that is a matter of public concern.

00:36:35.700 And you're making the comment about a public official, which means you as the as the journalist

00:36:40.000 have the greatest amount of protection.

00:36:42.860 However, if you're speaking about a public official and commenting on their private life,

00:36:48.280 you still have more protection than if you're commenting on a private person and their private

00:36:53.260 life.

00:36:53.680 But it's not quite as high as doing public official and public life.

00:36:58.260 And that leads me to the lawsuit by Emmanuel and Brigitte Macron against Candace Owens.

00:37:04.520 So Candace will have a measure of protection. 0.50

00:37:08.440 She's being sued for defamation by the first lady and president of France because she has said

00:37:14.160 that Brigitte Macron is actually a man who's posing as a female and posing as, you know, 0.99

00:37:20.500 having been a female for years and that she has a penis, to put it bluntly. 1.00

00:37:25.400 And this, I think, would be I think would be I could be wrong, but it could it's definitely 0.99

00:37:30.360 a comment on a public figure and more of a measure of private behavior.

00:37:35.820 You could argue it's a big fraud on the people of France.

00:37:38.360 I don't know.

00:37:39.060 But still, there will be a very, very high standard either way for the Macron's to win

00:37:44.100 on a defamation case against Candace Owens.

00:37:47.100 They say that they sent her a letter in December saying, you better take down those claims.

00:37:54.900 We are warning you.

00:37:56.160 And that they sent her Brigitte Macron's birth certificate, which is attached.

00:38:00.740 It's reprinted in the complaint.

00:38:02.200 It does show a little girl named Brigitte, whatever the maiden name was, I don't have in

00:38:06.020 front of me, was born on such and such a date in the 1950s.

00:38:08.740 And it's got like the actual birth announcement and other proof, including pictures of a young

00:38:13.440 Brigitte.

00:38:14.720 Yeah, Brigitte, they say her last name is Trogneau.

00:38:17.780 That's her maiden name.

00:38:18.760 And in French, it says that her brothers and sisters welcomed their little sister in Amiens,

00:38:24.940 France, on looks like 1st of December.

00:38:27.500 Anyway, she's now got to defend this.

00:38:30.060 And Candace Owens is saying, I look forward to it.

00:38:32.300 Great.

00:38:32.600 And she's saying, for the first time, I'll get to sit across from Brigitte Macron at a 0.99

00:38:37.320 deposition and hear her asked about her penis. 1.00

00:38:41.400 That's what Candace's direct, I think that's a direct quote. 0.99

00:38:44.380 And it's never happened before.

00:38:45.740 So she's not backing down one bit.

00:38:49.320 And it is reckless for the Macron's to sue Candace Owens for defamation if this is true.

00:38:56.540 Right?

00:38:57.140 It's somewhat reckless for them to do it because Candace is not wrong.

00:39:00.780 She will get the chance to ask those questions through her lawyer directly to the first lady 0.99

00:39:05.580 of France, Arthur.

00:39:07.120 So what is really going on here?

00:39:09.140 And how do you like the Macron's chances?

00:39:12.760 It's nuts.

00:39:15.320 Pardon the pun.

00:39:16.960 Yeah.

00:39:17.880 I mean, you know, the truth is an absolute defense.

00:39:23.500 Right.

00:39:23.720 And that's that's the law.

00:39:26.680 Right.

00:39:27.000 So.

00:39:28.680 This is not a hard case to prove or disprove.

00:39:31.940 It's a matter of you can actually get there.

00:39:35.620 In other words, you get a judge to rule at some point, you know, what anatomy is attached

00:39:41.660 to the body.

00:39:42.200 But I would say if there is a birth certificate that was sent to Miss Owens that shows a girl

00:39:49.780 born, I think on you said on my birthday, December the first birth announcement, you

00:39:53.920 know, birth announcement.

00:39:55.780 OK, well, OK, that's a little different.

00:39:58.160 That is a little different.

00:39:59.000 A birth announcement is different than an officially stamp.

00:40:01.820 I mean, I don't know how they do it in France, but, but, you know, maybe she has a birth certificate

00:40:05.360 too that she'll produce.

00:40:06.400 I don't know.

00:40:06.720 Well, OK, a birth certificate with a raised seal, with a raised seal.

00:40:10.820 And you're saying, what are you talking about here?

00:40:12.380 Here's my birth certificate.

00:40:13.260 I'm, you know, I'm a girl.

00:40:14.640 And Candace is still doing this. 0.99

00:40:16.760 She's on notice.

00:40:18.320 She's got she's not. 0.89

00:40:19.600 OK, but wait, but wait, let me ask you something.

00:40:21.940 She's got evidence.

00:40:22.760 Candace's defense.

00:40:23.660 What she says, I think she said a few different things about this, but what she has alternatively

00:40:29.160 posited that perhaps there was a Brigitte Macron that was born on that date and that she

00:40:35.860 lived and that she may have died and said, do we have this on tape, Deb, and said, I will

00:40:43.820 allow my brother because I think her one of her theories is that it's Brigitte's brother

00:40:51.080 posing as Brigitte and that maybe Brigitte died and allowed her brother who wanted to be

00:40:58.000 a woman to assume her identity. 0.98

00:41:00.040 Here's Candace in SOT 6. 1.00

00:41:02.660 This is after the lawsuit was filed.

00:41:04.480 And so at this point, she's definitely seen the birth announcement.

00:41:07.920 If I said certificate, I misspoke.

00:41:09.720 Here's that in SOT 6.

00:41:12.260 I do believe that Brigitte Trugno, the real Brigitte Trugno existed.

00:41:15.700 It's plausible that Brigitte Trugno got sick, that the real Brigitte Trugno got sick and

00:41:23.260 perhaps had a dying wish to help her brother, Jean-Michel Trugno, who was living perhaps as

00:41:29.220 Veronique, right?

00:41:30.440 And knowing that, okay, well, he's never going to be allowed to live his life authentically.

00:41:35.100 He's always going to be hiding, you know, always going to be hiding and doing these sorts

00:41:38.500 of things because this is just not a time where people are recognizing this transgendered

00:41:45.300 identity.

00:41:45.700 Well, what if she gifted her brother her identity?

00:41:49.520 Here.

00:41:50.360 You know, this is not a thing yet.

00:41:51.520 You can just become me.

00:41:53.920 Okay.

00:41:54.100 That's, again, we're surmising there's no evidence that Brigitte Trugno died.

00:41:58.480 There's no evidence of that.

00:42:00.140 But that's what it feels like to me.

00:42:01.760 It feels like to me that Brigitte Trugno did her brother, the real Brigitte Trugno did her

00:42:07.400 brother a favor and allowed him to become her.

00:42:11.160 Wow.

00:42:13.080 I mean, wow.

00:42:15.120 I'm working on it.

00:42:16.740 Working on it.

00:42:18.720 Good luck with that.

00:42:20.060 She's so close to the line, if not over it.

00:42:23.040 It's one thing to just say someone looks like a man.

00:42:27.240 Okay.

00:42:27.780 That's protected.

00:42:28.800 Offensive, but protected.

00:42:31.300 It's another thing to say, you know, maybe this happened.

00:42:34.980 Maybe that happened.

00:42:35.580 She's reporting something and she's coming out with a statement and then trying to come

00:42:41.300 up with some theory to back it up.

00:42:43.500 In one respect, again, it doesn't have to be true.

00:42:46.580 What she's saying doesn't have to be true.

00:42:48.100 It just has to be not a reckless disregard of the truth.

00:42:51.060 So if she's got theories to back it up, then okay.

00:42:53.940 But if that's the best she's got, it seems completely half cocked.

00:42:57.720 Again, pun intended.

00:42:58.640 Well, that's her rebuttal.

00:43:00.820 Her case in chief.

00:43:02.240 And I confess I haven't watched any of this.

00:43:04.820 I have no important things to do than worry about Brigitte Macron.

00:43:09.120 But my producers watched it and they did tell me, and they have nothing against Candace,

00:43:15.200 but they did say that it's thin and it's disjointed and it's hard to follow at times.

00:43:20.880 And it's, you know, it sounds a lot like conspiracy.

00:43:24.460 Some of the conspiracies that we've criticized in the past have come true that I don't know

00:43:28.620 whether this will be one of them, but I don't, I don't totally get like, she is positing

00:43:33.120 that Brigitte is a man.

00:43:35.160 And if Brigitte is a man, if Brigitte's a man, then she's always been a man or she, 0.55

00:43:43.140 yes, possibly was a woman who died and gave her identity to somebody.

00:43:47.720 If she's always been a man, why is there a birth announcement, right?

00:43:51.100 Showing that a Brigitte was born on such and such a date.

00:43:53.280 There are pictures of Brigitte when she's a child.

00:43:56.860 Candace still claims that that child is not Brigitte, that it's somehow Brigitte's brother

00:44:01.920 who is Brigitte in the photos.

00:44:04.920 And yet the problem for this theory is that the brother is still alive.

00:44:08.240 The brother was at Emmanuel Macron's swearing in ceremonies, both of them, and pictured in

00:44:14.940 at least one picture with Brigitte Macron.

00:44:18.200 So like the brother who she's claiming has assumed Brigitte's identity because he was so 0.98

00:44:22.720 dying to be trans, is alive and well. 1.00

00:44:24.380 There he is. 0.95

00:44:25.280 He's the bald guy back there.

00:44:27.140 He took over the family's chocolate confectioner business.

00:44:30.320 And so that doesn't really jive, but it doesn't, look, we don't have to fully buy into this

00:44:36.280 or not to do good legal analysis on it.

00:44:38.380 And what they're going to have to prove, Arthur, is that Candace knew it was false or recklessly

00:44:43.540 disregarded that it was, that it appeared to be false.

00:44:48.600 And I will say this in her defense, I believe she's a true believer.

00:44:54.620 I do not believe she knows this is false.

00:44:59.180 Reckless disregard is going to be the interesting question.

00:45:02.180 I totally agree with you.

00:45:03.660 And my interaction with Candace hasn't been too deep, but deep enough where, I mean, she

00:45:09.320 did a whole thing on Harvey Weinstein, right?

00:45:11.160 So we were involved with that and I'd spoken to her several times and she got it all right.

00:45:15.520 I mean, and even things that I didn't want her, like weren't that helpful for Mr. Weinstein,

00:45:20.980 like she still reported on things accurately.

00:45:23.920 So on that limited exposure that I had to her and her reporting, she dug deep and she

00:45:31.720 was very thorough and she was very ethical and honest in that particular scenario.

00:45:38.220 I don't know enough about this, but I don't think she's reckless with herself and her family

00:45:43.500 that she's going to just make the, I mean, she knows, she knows what these laws are.

00:45:47.900 She was put on notice.

00:45:49.720 So if she was really, you know, playing with fire, when you're put on notice months ago,

00:45:54.520 like, hey, don't do this and here's proof.

00:45:56.780 And she still disregarded that.

00:45:58.380 She must have something, as you just said, that she believes she's holding onto that makes

00:46:03.280 sense that will clear her in any lawsuit.

00:46:05.520 Well, here's to that point, the lawyers who are representing the McCrones are like the 0.97

00:46:11.640 defamation lawyers.

00:46:12.880 They do plaintiff's defamation cases for a living, Claire Locke.

00:46:16.300 And they're two very well-known, very well-respected lawyers.

00:46:19.920 And it's a husband-wife team. 0.99

00:46:23.040 And the husband, Tom Clare, went on with Jake Tapper right after they filed this case against

00:46:28.520 Candace.

00:46:29.000 And here's how that went, SOT 8.

00:46:33.780 How much money do you want?

00:46:35.240 And do you want her to apologize?

00:46:37.480 Well, we'd love an apology, of course.

00:46:39.920 A court can't order her to apologize. 0.94

00:46:42.060 And based on her conduct, especially today, we don't expect her to do anything other than

00:46:45.640 double down.

00:46:46.860 We'll put forward our damage claim at trial.

00:46:48.900 But if she continues to double down between now and the time of trial, it'll be a substantial 0.80

00:46:52.640 award.

00:46:53.940 OK, sorry.

00:46:54.380 That was one, but we needed the other one, SOT 7.

00:46:57.820 I don't know what she knows to be true or not.

00:47:00.000 She says a lot of lies. 1.00

00:47:01.520 How do you know that she's lying as opposed to a deeply disturbed individual?

00:47:06.100 It could be both, of course.

00:47:07.740 It's one of the reasons why our complaint is 219 pages long.

00:47:11.300 We wanted to lay out exactly that.

00:47:13.180 We wanted to explain to the court and we wanted to explain to the people that will see our

00:47:16.740 lawsuit how we can prove that she knows it's false. 0.84

00:47:20.000 We have put this information directly in front of her.

00:47:22.240 Even if you want to give her a pass for the early crazy stuff that she said, after we

00:47:26.420 put facts and information in front of her, black and white, multiple times.

00:47:30.840 What?

00:47:31.060 Like the first lady's birth certificate?

00:47:33.880 Like what kind of facts?

00:47:34.840 Yeah, we have laid out extensive evidence in our complaint demonstrating that she was

00:47:39.520 born a woman.

00:47:40.720 She's always been a woman. 1.00

00:47:42.240 And the allegations of CIA control conspiracy and the incest and all the other things are

00:47:48.120 demonstrably false.

00:47:50.520 This is the complaint.

00:47:51.580 It is huge and it does have pictures of Brigitte McCrone through childhood and it's got all

00:47:58.700 the things that we've been talking about.

00:48:00.380 And their point is this was all given to Candace before they filed the lawsuit in this December

00:48:05.520 retraction demand.

00:48:07.440 And she didn't.

00:48:09.440 And I think the reason she didn't, I mean, I think the worst case scenario for Candace is

00:48:13.560 she didn't because she doesn't believe that.

00:48:16.580 OK, so is that defamation?

00:48:21.020 You know, Mark, like she did.

00:48:22.360 She rejected it.

00:48:23.360 And let's let's go to let's go the nastiest possible interpretation of what she's done. 0.76

00:48:29.940 She's a conspiracy theorist who got twisted up on this McCrone thing and it's not true.

00:48:35.780 And she refuses to see reason.

00:48:39.000 I'm not sure that's reckless disregard.

00:48:41.060 That's the worst case scenario.

00:48:41.980 The best case scenario for Candace is it's true when these people are lying about it because

00:48:45.140 they don't want to be humiliated.

00:48:46.880 Tepper makes a good point.

00:48:48.420 If she's and I don't know her like Arthur does.

00:48:50.560 I don't know her at all.

00:48:51.680 Let's say she's a little wacky. 1.00

00:48:53.220 Let's say she's a little off.

00:48:54.780 Right.

00:48:55.500 And beats to her own drum. 0.75

00:48:58.080 Again, that's going to help her if she doesn't know it to be false like they're claiming.

00:49:03.620 I mean, the plaintiffs came out there on his show and said, we believe we can prove she

00:49:07.180 knew it to be false.

00:49:08.820 Wow.

00:49:09.520 But let's go to the second tier.

00:49:11.240 A reckless disregard for the truth.

00:49:12.100 He's not going to be able to do that.

00:49:13.760 Well, he claims.

00:49:14.660 I mean, it's amazing that he.

00:49:15.820 No way.

00:49:16.280 Listen, if I'm an attorney, I don't go to the highest tier.

00:49:18.520 If he's got an audio tape, you know, it'd have to be an audio tape of her being like, 0.90

00:49:21.200 I know it's not true.

00:49:22.380 I'm just doing it for ratings.

00:49:23.280 But the key is whether it's a reckless disregard and the fact that she's eccentric, a little

00:49:28.200 wacky, whatever that is, I believe can help her.

00:49:31.940 Yeah, I think that's I'm saying this is the worst case scenario for I don't know anything

00:49:36.540 about her.

00:49:37.760 I but I will say this.

00:49:39.600 Delaware federal court is not great for her. 1.00

00:49:42.220 Most of the I've spoken to a bunch of defamation attorneys and most of them say this is not ideal

00:49:47.260 for her.

00:49:48.600 There will be a question about whether the Macron's want to see this thing through to trial.

00:49:52.520 I feel like she probably will.

00:49:55.280 And it's tough.

00:49:56.200 I'll tell you just as a as a media personality, it's tough to get insurance for defamation.

00:50:01.940 I was going to ask you that question.

00:50:03.060 I was going to ask you that question.

00:50:04.260 Can you get insurance?

00:50:05.740 No, she's got no, she's got skin in this game. 1.00

00:50:07.480 No question.

00:50:08.880 And I'm sure she has to consider, you know, what the effect this would have on her family.

00:50:15.220 And I just curious.

00:50:16.440 You think these helps me believe she believes it?

00:50:19.100 You think these just curious plaintiffs lawyers, you think they're being paid hourly?

00:50:22.360 Or they're doing this on a retainer, meaning they have a vested interest in how much money

00:50:26.740 they're going to get out of this, or they're being paid hourly?

00:50:29.160 Probably that.

00:50:29.620 I bet they're getting paid hourly.

00:50:30.980 I get that.

00:50:31.280 I know.

00:50:31.580 They're getting paid hourly.

00:50:32.380 I know.

00:50:32.660 But these two are no joke.

00:50:34.340 So you'd have to be a little concerned.

00:50:35.600 All right.

00:50:35.760 We'll continue to follow it.

00:50:36.760 Fair and balanced.

00:50:37.660 As we always do.

00:50:38.300 Guys, thank you.

00:50:39.220 Coming up next.

00:50:39.920 Thank you, Megan.

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00:51:43.480 That's B-Y-R-N-A dot com or your local sportsman's warehouse. 0.82

00:51:47.840 Visit now and be prepared to defend.

00:51:52.160 Welcome back to The Megan Kelly Show.

00:51:53.780 Joining me now, Mark Garagos, who's managing partner for Garagos and Garagos.

00:51:57.720 Jonna Spilboer, founding attorney, Jonna Spilboer Law.

00:52:00.260 Matt Murphy, former homicide prosecutor and author of The Book of Murder.

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00:53:04.400 Thanks for being here, guys.

00:53:05.960 And thanks for joining MK True Crime.

00:53:08.920 Thank you.

00:53:09.840 So happy to be here.

00:53:11.760 John, a spill where you are one of those OGs I mentioned at the top of the show where we've been doing this now for 21 years together, my sister.

00:53:19.320 So it's great to be taking our relationship to the next level.

00:53:22.100 Uh, it's an honor to have, uh, I won't say the old and new, but, uh, long, long-term friends and newer friends all on board.

00:53:29.920 Okay.

00:53:30.200 Let's kick it off with Diddy.

00:53:32.140 And, um, this is, this case was tried for the defense by Mark's daughter, Tenny Garagos, who no matter what you think of Diddy and I, the audience knows I'm not a fan.

00:53:44.240 She crushed it, Mark.

00:53:45.460 I mean, there's no question this was a huge defense verdict, even though he was convicted on the two lesser charges.

00:53:52.200 But, I mean, huge victory for the defense.

00:53:55.500 So hats off to your daughter. 0.60

00:53:57.900 You know what I can tell you is I sat and watched her opening statement, and I was in the, kind of the back right in the, where the family was.

00:54:06.540 And all I could think of, I'll reminisce just a minute, was my father, who was also a homicide prosecutor, formerly like Matt, recovering when he was in partnership with me.

00:54:17.400 And I was thinking he was one generation away from his mother escaping the Turks and the Armenian genocide.

00:54:24.280 And here is his granddaughter giving this opening statement.

00:54:27.500 So it was quite a moment to watch it.

00:54:29.520 You're right.

00:54:30.360 She did crush it. 0.99

00:54:31.280 That's awesome.

00:54:32.940 Honestly, good for her.

00:54:33.920 I, I'm not one of those loons who can't separate the lawyer from the, you know, the person.

00:54:40.220 It's like, it doesn't mean any defense lawyer is endorsing a person or saying anything whatsoever about whether the person did the thing or didn't do the thing.

00:54:48.960 We need defense lawyers to test the system and make sure guys like Matt have to cross all their T's and dot their I's before they put somebody behind bars.

00:54:57.060 I'm sure Matt agrees.

00:54:58.000 So let's talk about Diddy because he really, really, really wanted bail, even though he had already been told you're not getting bail.

00:55:03.560 But now he came back and said, but please, please, I really want bail.

00:55:06.780 And he said, oh, I'll, I'll agree to all these extraordinary conditions.

00:55:11.980 Fifty million bond.

00:55:14.020 I would do that.

00:55:15.240 He said, I'll do electronic monitoring.

00:55:17.260 I, um, it's unusually dangerous in this detention center where I'm being held in Brooklyn and, um, other defendants who are convicted of my type of charges are usually released.

00:55:28.180 I'm being like held to a higher standard here and, uh, said, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta let me out.

00:55:33.940 And the judge said goodbye.

00:55:36.900 No, uh, he said you, I'm trying to find the exact quote here.

00:55:43.240 Basically what he said was you have acknowledged that you behaved badly in other ways here.

00:55:49.440 You might have had traction with me in a case that did not involve evidence of violence, coercion, or subjugation in connection with the acts of prostitution at issue.

00:56:00.160 But the record here contains evidence of all three, Judge Supermanian said.

00:56:04.800 So Mark, I'll give you the first crack at whether the judge got that right.

00:56:07.640 I don't think he did, and I don't want to put my daughter in an uncomfortable situation, but I, I think from my standpoint, he was charged with counts that had mandatory minimums.

00:56:20.920 He rolled the dice.

00:56:22.440 He beat the RICO.

00:56:24.460 He beat the two sex trafficking, which I think last I looked at the mandatory minimum of 15 to life, each of them.

00:56:31.460 And the RICO would have been, I mean, the old joke, your money or your life, that would have been all of his fortune.

00:56:38.100 He beat both of those, and he got convicted of two man acts.

00:56:41.660 And so people understand the so-called victims of the man act are rather strapping young males who crossed state lines.

00:56:51.680 So if it, if there was ever a ticky tack foul to quote the late great Chick Hearn, that was it.

00:56:57.840 And the judge has said, well, this falls under a chapter of the U.S. Code that makes this violent.

00:57:06.600 Well, that may be the case, but he also, his honor also asked them to do a survey of every case.

00:57:13.100 He wanted to see it prior to sentencing, before they even made this last bail application.

00:57:19.060 And nobody found a case where anybody has been similarly situated, let alone prosecuted and detained.

00:57:27.000 So do I think he got it right?

00:57:29.340 No.

00:57:30.100 Do I think there's too much deference given to the government? 0.99

00:57:33.780 Yes, because the government is, frankly, and to my mind, are a bunch of sore losers.

00:57:39.020 I mean, they came out on the day of the verdict when they had lost spectacularly, said, we think it's 41 to 50 months.

00:57:46.560 They now, in their response to this bail application, are saying, we may ask for double that.

00:57:52.960 I mean, give me a break.

00:57:55.060 Yeah.

00:57:55.240 Matt, care to defend the government?

00:57:59.920 Not really on this one, Megan.

00:58:02.340 I can tell you, the only thing I really disagree with on Mark on that is Diddy didn't beat the case.

00:58:07.960 His daughter beat the case in the defense team.

00:58:09.820 And I'm with you on that, Megan.

00:58:10.880 Once you separate out the emotion and everything that we saw Diddy do on that video with Cassie Ventura, he comes off pretty bad as an individual.

00:58:22.920 It was his defense team that saved him.

00:58:24.480 From a purely mercenary point of view, they did an outstanding job.

00:58:29.820 They really did.

00:58:30.800 I think that, you know, what Diddy is going to deal with in this sentencing and also for this bail review is one of the things that nobody's talking about, Megan, is we got to go back to when he was using other inmates' calling codes to call witnesses in the case, supposedly.

00:58:52.260 And if you remember back during one of the very first bail hearings, he was doing that, and that is the type of thing.

00:59:00.100 Mark's familiar with this.

00:59:01.020 I'm sure you are, too.

00:59:01.680 There's an old adage here in law school.

00:59:03.140 The second most powerful thing to God on earth is a federal judge, and that is a lot of judges will take a personal affront at that, and that's, I think, where he really screwed up.

00:59:14.400 I think that when the prosecution came out and said he's looking at more time, so he poses a flight risk, it's just like it makes me cringe.

00:59:23.180 It's like, come on, guys. 0.99

00:59:24.180 That's just dumb. 0.99

00:59:25.280 Sorry, that's dumb. 0.99

00:59:26.140 But where they hung their hat or where they should have hung their hat is danger just based on the fact that he is such a prolific domestic violence dude, you know? 0.77

00:59:37.760 And I'm sure he could keep it straight until sentencing, but it also indicates potentially he's looking at a custodial sentence beyond what Mark or I would call CTS or credit time served.

00:59:49.160 So it looks like the judge is probably planning on dinging him something.

00:59:51.900 But I also, look, I agree with Mark.

00:59:55.200 In federal sentencing, you can't have gross disparity between one case and another.

01:00:02.220 And so he's, the government's going to be lucky if they get four or five years, frankly, I think.

01:00:07.500 John, what do you think of it? 0.97

01:00:09.740 I think Diddy is a dirtbag. 0.95

01:00:12.620 And because the judge knows that, he is paying lip service to the law. 0.95

01:00:17.980 I don't think this judge really believes that Diddy is a flight risk.

01:00:22.060 I don't believe any of that.

01:00:23.180 With this judge, he's doing one of two things, my opinion.

01:00:25.820 He either is trying to punish Diddy because he knows that he's not really going to be able to throw the sentencing book at him and that Diddy will get what is very close to credit for time served and walk very shortly after sentence.

01:00:41.180 So this judge wants to inflict as much pain as he can beforehand or it's some sort of foreshadowing that this judge is going to be amenable to departing from the sentencing guidelines upwardly to really stick it to Diddy because Diddy is not a likable guy. 0.54

01:00:59.340 He's a misogynist. 0.99

01:01:00.240 He's a woman beater. 1.00

01:01:01.460 He's a horrible person. 0.99

01:01:03.000 But yes, I agree that Mark's daughter did a good job.

01:01:07.180 And this was this wasn't just a verdict.

01:01:09.860 I don't want to get hate mail for that, but it was.

01:01:13.140 Well, I like the verdict couldn't be supported.

01:01:16.060 It could be supported.

01:01:17.060 I totally disagreed with it fully and completely, but it's not something you could say there was no rational basis for the jury to come to this.

01:01:23.260 But here's he's still like, does he have any remedy between now and the October sentencing mark or is it done now?

01:01:30.740 He's not getting bail.

01:01:31.620 This is the final.

01:01:33.000 He doesn't have a remedy with this judge.

01:01:35.620 He does have a remedy with somebody else in the executive branch.

01:01:40.900 So I.

01:01:42.240 All right.

01:01:43.000 Is it true?

01:01:44.020 Is he trying to persuade Trump to get a pardon?

01:01:47.360 Yeah, I think Trump's admitted he's he just I just saw an interview in which not one, but twice he's admitted that he's been taught.

01:01:55.420 The president has been talked to.

01:01:57.320 I actually think this would be above my pay grade.

01:02:01.340 But politically, I I can see where this resonates with him, because, you know, let's you lived as and I did many shows with you during the time Trump was being prosecuted both civilly and criminally in New York, which is reminiscent of what is happening with Diddy.

01:02:21.540 He was accused of everything there was they threw everything in Rico.

01:02:26.740 Trump had a Rico case, too.

01:02:28.960 Exactly.

01:02:29.460 And by the way, Trump did not get I, in my humble opinion, ever get a fair trial in New York.

01:02:37.420 I thought that was preordained.

01:02:39.160 I mean, he was the worst place in the world for him to have been tried was in New York.

01:02:44.480 And it was an unfair prosecution from the get go by prosecutors who had an agenda.

01:02:49.940 He can see that same thing here.

01:02:52.380 I mean, there was, you know, this Emile Bove, who is now on the circuit, who was the one who had to trek down to New York to on Mayor Adams case to tell the judge in the Southern District.

01:03:05.340 Hey, set that aside and talked about Damian Williams, the previous U.S. attorney who brought the case against Adams and against Diddy.

01:03:13.560 They cited the fact that he put up Diddy and the mayor on his website when he left office and that he was trying to curry favor to become the attorney general under Kamala.

01:03:25.180 So there are some things that I think resonate with Trump.

01:03:29.200 And I think he should commute the sentence, if not pardon him.

01:03:33.380 Oh, my God.

01:03:35.340 You're such an effective advocate.

01:03:37.380 But I'm so jarred by all of that.

01:03:40.340 But why are you so?

01:03:42.180 Look, I agree that there I've known Sean for 15 years and he has.

01:03:49.300 You always do this.

01:03:50.040 You love all the worst people.

01:03:51.640 You love the Menendez brothers.

01:03:53.280 You love Scott Peterson.

01:03:55.380 You've never seen a client who did it.

01:03:57.620 OK, that's a little ad hominem argument.

01:04:00.740 But let's go back.

01:04:01.800 Let's go back to what I'm saying.

01:04:03.040 He has had his troubles.

01:04:05.520 He has had his substance abuse.

01:04:07.820 He is.

01:04:08.460 If you if you go through all of the violent acts, they're almost always related to his substance abuse.

01:04:15.180 Almost exclusively.

01:04:16.900 He has been on a cocktail of drugs, which is a story often told in Hollywood, which is where these people get just they go up, they go down, they're just dispensed, all kinds of stuff.

01:04:30.080 When he and he's now been in there for about a year and he's clean and sober and he's a different person when he's clean and sober and he's made some he's made some kind of amends.

01:04:41.920 And, you know, he did get Gina, who was victim number three, to write a letter in support of him being released.

01:04:51.100 So stop, I know, Gina's full of it. 0.99

01:04:56.160 Gina needs his money. 0.97

01:04:57.420 This is Gina. 0.87

01:04:58.260 Here's Gina in twenty nineteen talking about this wonderful man.

01:05:02.140 Here she is giving an interview.

01:05:03.520 He had caught me texting another man.

01:05:08.200 We was in Miami and it got really crazy that time.

01:05:15.820 We were in his closet and he like pushed me and I fell to the ground and and then he got he like stood over me.

01:05:23.940 So I was like laying on my back and he stood over me and he started like punching me like this, like he avoided my face, but he started punching me like on the side of my head and I was just like covering my face.

01:05:38.240 He like stomped on my stomach like really hard and I like took the wind out of my breath.

01:05:45.120 I couldn't even I couldn't breathe and he kept but he kept hitting me and I was like pleading to him, like, can you just can you stop?

01:05:53.360 I can't breathe.

01:05:54.580 And he like stopped for a little bit.

01:05:57.820 He he like grabbed my hair from the back and like was like punching the back of my head because he was he was just avoiding my face when he was like hitting me.

01:06:10.800 He's a real gentleman that was on the Tasha K blogger show.

01:06:15.120 In June of 19 years later, six years later, she's writing a letter.

01:06:20.840 Yes. Now she's saying now she's saying he's super sweet.

01:06:25.500 But by the way, he was with Jane all the way up to the moment of his arrest.

01:06:30.520 And her testimony was she was being abused up until that moment.

01:06:34.580 It went on all the way. The physical abuse, the freak offs, all of it.

01:06:38.520 Yeah, go ahead.

01:06:39.700 OK, just but just hold on.

01:06:42.320 Twelve New Yorkers heard all of this.

01:06:45.620 They didn't hear Gina because he didn't dispute the physical violence.

01:06:48.760 He didn't even dispute it.

01:06:50.380 Right. He wasn't charged with it.

01:06:52.460 That's I mean, we're arguing about whether he's an asshole and he is. 1.00

01:06:56.320 The jury is back in. 1.00

01:06:58.060 That's exactly right.

01:06:59.680 You're trying to tell us he's also warm and cuddly now that he's off the drugs.

01:07:03.480 It was just a drug single tear. 1.00

01:07:05.640 Bullshit. Matt, you've heard defense lawyers do this a thousand times or more. 1.00

01:07:09.120 Listen, not only what you just witnessed, Megan, not to cut you off, Mark.

01:07:12.580 This is why I've known Mark for years.

01:07:14.540 We go back decades together.

01:07:16.080 This is why Mark is the first guy I'd probably call if I got in trouble, especially if I did it.

01:07:21.120 You just witnessed it, America.

01:07:22.200 OK, that's that is Mark Garagos at his best.

01:07:24.740 He he got everything right.

01:07:26.000 The problem is John is exactly right.

01:07:27.520 He is to use your term, Megan.

01:07:30.040 I'd never heard it before. 1.00

01:07:31.000 He's an asshole and he's exposed. 1.00

01:07:33.240 And if we'd seen that, if we'd seen that interview just then by itself, without that Cassie Ventura video, we'd all be going, maybe, yes, maybe she's off your money. 1.00

01:07:42.720 But it's all true. 0.58

01:07:43.840 We know it's true. 0.99

01:07:44.920 Any man who had put his hands or in his case, feet on a woman like we saw in that video is a friggin dirtbag. 0.99

01:07:52.020 And that is why in my and I'm spitballing here like we all are. 0.98

01:07:56.000 That's why everything Mark said was right about, I think, with Trump and New York.

01:07:59.940 And it wasn't fair.

01:08:01.300 And I think that a lot of people believe that the problem is, is that he's got two parts.

01:08:06.360 Number one, he isn't. 0.99

01:08:07.240 He is a total dirtbag. 1.00

01:08:08.700 He is an abuser of women in the most bullying kind of way. 1.00

01:08:12.540 All that came out. 0.95

01:08:13.600 And the second thing is, it's not going to take people that work for Trump very long to see that he was an ardent Trump hater.

01:08:21.420 And all that's going to all that's going to feed in.

01:08:23.460 So Mark Mark was right.

01:08:25.600 But Jonna is more right, I think, on the on the grand scheme.

01:08:29.220 And I don't.

01:08:30.020 That's the thing.

01:08:30.660 My money is he's not going to do it.

01:08:31.920 It's too controversial on the pardon, Jonna.

01:08:34.480 I mean, I tweeted this out the other day, but I that already the GOP is struggling with women. 0.99

01:08:39.860 This will not help.

01:08:41.500 Already, the GOP base is mad at Trump.

01:08:44.360 The Epstein sort of the scandal has infuriated the MAGA base because they feel he's covering up for elites, well-connected, rich people who may be in these files.

01:08:53.440 This will not help.

01:08:54.980 Trump gets zero upside, zero from pardoning Diddy.

01:08:58.940 OK, and that has to be his consideration, right?

01:09:02.780 I mean, on the one hand, you want to pardon somebody if you think they've been really wronged by the system.

01:09:07.460 I get that.

01:09:08.200 But this would hurt Trump more than it would help Diddy.

01:09:11.220 Why?

01:09:11.700 Because Diddy's going to walk pretty damn soon, no matter what happens on sentencing day.

01:09:16.460 He's not going to be there forever.

01:09:17.740 He's not going to the chair.

01:09:19.020 So why burn a favor, for lack of a better word?

01:09:22.020 Why should this administration do that for him?

01:09:25.060 But look, Donald Trump likes to forgive.

01:09:26.760 If he forgives a lot of people, he can fight one day and then shake hands with the next.

01:09:30.300 He doesn't need to do that in this case with Diddy.

01:09:33.040 Diddy's not going to be there for that much longer.

01:09:36.700 Go ahead, Mark.

01:09:37.140 I'll give you a last word.

01:09:38.520 I was just going to say, you can prosecute him by proxy.

01:09:43.660 But I'll go back to what Tenney said in the opening.

01:09:46.900 If he was charged with domestic violence, we wouldn't be here.

01:09:50.980 That isn't what he's charged with.

01:09:52.680 If you want to punish him for something that you couldn't do legally, I guess then that's okay.

01:09:59.340 And by the way, you can always make that argument.

01:10:03.160 And that's the argument they made about Trump in New York.

01:10:05.720 You can always torture the law into a prosecution.

01:10:09.320 I think it was the judge.

01:10:10.980 He did the thing he was convicted of. 0.94

01:10:12.920 He did transport prostitutes. 0.96

01:10:15.300 And by the way, when I go back to the Burbank Airport on a Friday afternoon, and I'm one of 500 people going to Vegas, and all of the women from Van Nuys are there going to have sex in Vegas. 0.99

01:10:27.360 They are all the man.

01:10:28.180 Oh, Mark, Garagos is having different flights than I am.

01:10:31.000 Okay, interesting.

01:10:31.940 Stand by.

01:10:32.540 We'll put a pin in that.

01:10:33.660 You don't fly Southwest anymore.

01:10:36.940 When you fly out of the Northeast, you're not surrounded by that kind of crowd, Mark.

01:10:40.640 That's all I can tell you.

01:10:41.720 All right, let's do Kohlberger in the time we have left, because there is some news there.

01:10:46.020 He just got transferred to solitary.

01:10:47.780 Brian Kohlberger convicted of these four quadruple murders in Idaho.

01:10:53.100 Can I tell you something?

01:10:53.900 So Matt's put how many serial killers on death row?

01:10:58.080 Eight, 12?

01:11:00.020 I've done eight death penalty trials.

01:11:02.420 Okay, so I just want to say this.

01:11:06.240 When I covered this case, I hadn't yet read this book that Maureen Callahan recommended to me, The Stranger Beside Me, which was written by a woman who was friends with Ted Bundy, and she was a crime reporter reporting on crimes being committed in the Seattle area, having no idea it was her friend Ted Bundy who was doing it.

01:11:24.700 It's a crazy, great read.

01:11:26.700 And for days, I walked around with my AirPods and listening to it on audio, and people would come up and pat me on the shoulder.

01:11:32.640 I'd be like, oh my God!

01:11:34.160 So I was neck deep in the Ted Bundy stories, which are very creepy, but interesting.

01:11:37.840 And I'm now convinced, because we did see in the materials released that he had an obsession with Ted Bundy, and he took the selfie with the hood, the hoodie on.

01:11:49.520 He had reportedly been Googling Ted Bundy, and there was speculation that he may have also potentially obsessed with this Elliot Rodger serial killer, or just multiple murderer, I should say, went on a murdering spree on a college campus.

01:12:01.780 I think he was more obsessed with Ted Bundy now, having listened to the story, because there's so many similarities.

01:12:08.620 And what Anne, the writer of this book, posits, knowing Ted, is that Ted Bundy was re-killing the same girl over and over and over and over and over, and that he may have committed any place between 30 and 130 murders, Ted Bundy.

01:12:21.400 All, for the most part, looked exactly the same.

01:12:24.280 Between the heights of maybe 5'1 and 5'6, dark hair, part of the center, almost always wearing jeans or slacks.

01:12:32.940 And oftentimes, when not in that outfit, asleep in their beds.

01:12:37.780 And one of his most infamous crime days was when he walked into, in Tallahassee, the Florida University there, and murdered, attacked.

01:12:47.360 It was six, six, I think, Florida sorority sisters, and three died.

01:12:54.880 I'm trying to get my facts straight.

01:12:55.700 There were so many murders, but he definitely attacked with a knife, and with a, he used a bludgeon, just like a piece of wood to bludgeon them.

01:13:05.800 And there are just so many things.

01:13:07.360 Now we've learned that he knocked out the teeth of Kaylee Gonsalves.

01:13:10.940 That's something Ted Bundy did, too.

01:13:12.340 So, there's a report that Brian Kohlberger couldn't have this one high school girl that he apparently really liked.

01:13:20.100 She didn't have the time of day for him.

01:13:21.460 She was like a popular cheerleader who was blonde. 1.00

01:13:23.400 She looked a little similar to Kaylee and to Maddie.

01:13:26.040 In any event, this is a long way of saying Ted Bundy was a big fan of going to homes in the middle of the night and accosting his victims while sleeping.

01:13:33.060 That's what he did to those sorority sisters. 1.00

01:13:34.760 That's what Brian Kohlberger did here.

01:13:36.820 And now we're hearing from Kaylee's dad.

01:13:39.460 This happened right after, it was the week of the sentencing, where he's talking about some more details on the cases.

01:13:47.980 Here's SOT 12.

01:13:48.880 An investigator called me and said, yeah, not only did he have searches related to drunk girls, he also had them related to gagging.

01:14:01.580 And some of the damage to Kaylee could have basically seemed like he was trying to quiet her.

01:14:07.800 He was trying to silence her. 0.97

01:14:09.080 Which, if he's searching for gag, choke porn, then in that murder scene, he had drunk girls and choke porn.

01:14:19.900 Literally, so for a prosecutor to say that there's no sexual motivation at all, we know there's no assault, okay? 0.84

01:14:27.680 We know this person was interrupted, literally interrupted.

01:14:32.880 So who knows what his intentions were.

01:14:35.320 But for you to go and say that it wasn't motivated, really, it insulted so many people that my phone started ringing.

01:14:47.080 Very interesting, Matt, because we were critical of the prosecutor for saying that.

01:14:50.740 And now here's one of the victim's fathers saying that they did find so-called choke porn on his phone.

01:14:56.700 Well, you and I called that, Megan.

01:14:58.560 If you remember the last time, I guaranteed to you that we were going to find pornography or that word was going to come out about that.

01:15:05.380 And lo and behold, if that's accurate, and it's a little bit of a telephone game here because you get the detective to the dad saying that he found that, but he hasn't seen it.

01:15:13.760 But, of course, he did, and that aligns with every case like this that Mark and I have ever done, certainly.

01:15:21.300 There's almost always porn on the computer.

01:15:24.320 And, yeah, the prosecutor, I've got a lot of problems.

01:15:27.680 I've got a problem with his media tour right now where he's talking about how – what was the quote?

01:15:33.380 Sorry, I've got notes here.

01:15:34.680 We had the opportunity to do it in a way.

01:15:36.180 Yeah, to really give some immediate finality, we're pleased and relieved that the community and the victim's families aren't going to have to live through this.

01:15:46.360 You know, that's pretty tone deaf.

01:15:47.740 The families never get over this.

01:15:49.860 And, you know, it's like that applies to every single murder case.

01:15:56.100 So it's like what is the – you know, do we just give everybody a deal now so you don't put the family through the case?

01:16:01.800 And, by the way, having watched Olivia Gonsalves, that woman, when she ripped into Koberger, I guarantee was not afraid of the process or facing Koberger in the penalty phase.

01:16:12.860 And it's like – and this is crass, so I hate to say this, but if I'm allowed to swear, I keep thinking of Dave Chappelle's quote.

01:16:20.140 You know, yeah, we could do it that way, Mr. Prosecutor.

01:16:22.960 We could just give everybody a frigging deal, or you could shut the fuck up because you are undermining the, I think, the integrity of a lot of death penalty cases in the 27 states and the federal system that still have it by essentially you've got this example that everybody's heard of. 0.98

01:16:41.080 If the death penalty does not apply to Brian Koberger, who does it apply to? 0.98

01:16:44.540 And you and I also talked about how – what changed?

01:16:47.080 I wanted to know what changed after he made his announcement, and the answer was nothing changed other than Koberger wanting to come in and plead guilty.

01:16:55.620 And in my view, that's not a reason to come off the decision to seek death.

01:17:01.760 And I know a couple of the families supported it.

01:17:04.260 The Gonsalves certainly didn't. 0.97

01:17:05.260 But then they reversed themselves.

01:17:06.460 I want that guy to go away, Megan.

01:17:09.820 I want him to retire.

01:17:11.080 He keeps talking about retiring.

01:17:12.120 I want him to comb his beard or ride his horses or whatever he does in Idaho and shut the F up because he's undermining, in my view, the integrity of murder cases throughout the United States.

01:17:22.220 And it's very frustrating.

01:17:24.700 Well, Matt, I have a question for you.

01:17:25.560 I thought about you, Matt, on this.

01:17:27.560 And I didn't understand.

01:17:29.240 I still don't understand.

01:17:30.440 Almost always, in cases you and I see, there is – okay, if you want a deal, you have to sit and you either give a proffer or you answer questions or you do something in which you get closer to some kind of – I hate the word closure because, as you say, you never get there.

01:17:53.020 But I don't understand.

01:17:54.440 That wasn't done here.

01:17:55.600 There was absolutely nothing that was done to at least get some information so that people could have some answers, right?

01:18:05.680 Isn't that astounding, Mark?

01:18:07.100 I mean, and again, Megan, Mark and I have been doing this for decades with each other.

01:18:10.900 We've been doing it.

01:18:11.300 Me as the prosecutor, Mark as the defense lawyer.

01:18:13.340 You can absolutely do that.

01:18:15.280 And the thing is, in Idaho, they've got less than 10 people on death row.

01:18:18.440 It's a state where he might actually have been executed.

01:18:21.300 And I know John probably agrees here, too.

01:18:23.520 So if they had gone to him and his defense lawyers and said, look, we're going to come off death, but he has to actually explain what he was doing, we're going to do it, as Mark said, a proffer where you can't use the statement against him, but you can answer those questions, they can structure that any way they want.

01:18:38.380 And all this guy Thompson did, he just rolled over and let him plead.

01:18:42.600 And then also, remember, Megan, when they did that, we were live when he came in, and he said, there's no sexual component where I just about jumped through my computer when he said that.

01:18:51.040 But also, he went to lengths to say, we don't know if he was looking at the house and there's other stuff on.

01:18:55.140 He qualified at 18 different ways.

01:18:57.400 Mark is 100% right.

01:18:59.420 They could have structured that any way they wanted.

01:19:01.720 In my view, yeah, he did the job.

01:19:03.600 I used to rake my grandmother's leaves.

01:19:05.520 I did that job, and I did it horribly every single time. 0.97

01:19:08.500 You can do the job, and then you can do the job in a way where you still kind of suck at it.

01:19:13.420 And sorry, I don't want to be too harsh on him.

01:19:15.800 It's a very difficult position.

01:19:17.360 I've been there.

01:19:17.760 Too late, and totally justified. 0.61

01:19:18.460 I was going to say, too late, Laureny.

01:19:19.700 Because I want to bring in Jonna, but I want to tell the audience what I'm going to show them while she's talking.

01:19:23.660 Among the other pieces of evidence that we've just gotten our hands on are photos, a photo of Kohlberger in the wee hours of the morning that they arrested him in his parents' house in the Poconos.

01:19:34.600 When, of course, they burst in, and he was stuffing little Ziploc baggies full of his trash, which we know from the investigators he was then discarding in the neighbor's trash can.

01:19:46.040 Here he is, moments after realizing his world was changed forever.

01:19:49.680 They also reported that he had scrubbed many of his searches off of his phone.

01:19:54.840 He was using a VPN to avoid detection.

01:19:57.480 They also talked about how they briefly suspected that he had attacked a different woman in 2021 in the Pullman area, Pullman, Washington.

01:20:06.600 Somebody went into her bedroom holding a knife, wearing a ski mask, a burgundy ski mask.

01:20:11.620 His was black.

01:20:13.000 She kicked him, and he ran.

01:20:14.200 Then police ultimately determined he didn't live in the area at the time.

01:20:17.860 I don't know.

01:20:18.280 I still got questions about that one, to be honest.

01:20:20.100 He might have been out there visiting.

01:20:21.120 But your thoughts on where we are now as he gets moved to solitary confinement for the rest of his life, and we're supposed to, I guess, go along with his prosecutor's revisionist history of, we're pleased, we're relieved.

01:20:31.540 The community, the victim's families aren't going to have to go through, they're going to have to continue to live through this.

01:20:39.060 I'm professionally offended by the way that this plea went down for the reason that we were talking about.

01:20:45.340 He didn't have to allocute. 0.99

01:20:46.940 He didn't have to admit to shit, and that is a slap in the face to all the families. 0.99

01:20:51.620 And not only that, either I have the premise for a novel or I have a premonition, because what I think this prick is going to do in the future, he's going to wait, maybe until his parents are dead so he doesn't have to admit anything in front of them. 0.99

01:21:05.660 He's going to wait.

01:21:06.560 And five years, ten years down the road, he's going to say, hey, you want to know why I did it?

01:21:10.680 You want to know why I picked that house?

01:21:12.480 You want to know what my motivation is?

01:21:14.040 I'll tell you, but you've got to shave, I don't know, a little time off my sentence, or you've got to give me something for this information that you allowed me to go to prison for the rest of my life, hanging on to.

01:21:25.280 I'm professionally offended by that.

01:21:27.560 But the second thing, quickly, that I'm professionally offended by is right before prosecutors decided to accept this deal, defense attorneys decided to do this deal, remember the defense tried to float a motion requesting that they be permitted to present evidence of a third party culpability?

01:21:44.040 They did that knowing full freaking well that that was going to be a wild goose chase in a rabbit hole?

01:21:51.540 That professionally offends me, too.

01:21:53.740 That's the end of my soapbox on that.

01:21:55.380 Now, now Kohlberger is going to be in solitary, and the policies of this prison require that he is confined alone for up to 23 hours a day with limited human interaction.

01:22:07.060 He will receive meals in his cell.

01:22:08.980 He will only be allowed to shower three times a week, which I guess he's going to be upset about because one of his other cellmates said he loved to shower for an hour at a time.

01:22:18.540 He may take advantage of the step-down program that gradually transitions inmates from solitary confinement to a more open environment, though if you were Brian Kohlberger, would you really want that?

01:22:31.040 That will probably be the end of it.

01:22:32.900 That's a death sentence if he does that.

01:22:35.960 Yeah.

01:22:36.880 Again, single tier.

01:22:38.480 You guys are great.

01:22:39.480 I can't wait to watch you on MK True Crime.

01:22:41.240 Thanks so much for being here and being there, too.

01:22:43.460 Thank you.

01:22:44.400 Thank you so much, Megan.

01:22:45.640 Looking forward to it.

01:22:46.100 And these guys are going to have more on Diddy on the premiere of MK True Crime.

01:22:49.740 It comes out tomorrow morning.

01:22:51.180 Go now, while we take this break, to your podcast feed and just type in MK True Crime.

01:22:55.840 It'll come up and go ahead and subscribe or go, and I should say, and go to youtube.com slash at MK True Crime.

01:23:03.520 And you can follow there for all these great true crime discussions.

01:23:07.060 We have the best in the business.

01:23:08.300 And coming up next, three more of them, Phil Holloway, Dave Ehrenberg, and Ashley Merchant, the woman who brought down Fannie Willis.

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01:25:11.840 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM.

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01:26:09.840 Welcome back to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:26:14.280 We've got three more huge stars joining the MK True Crime Show and podcast.

01:26:21.120 They are Phil Holloway.

01:26:22.740 You can follow him on X at Phil Holloway, E-S-Q for Esquire.

01:26:28.120 Ashley Merchant, who's a criminal defense attorney, who is the woman who brought down the Fannie Willis case and Fannie Willis herself.

01:26:34.540 Let's face it.

01:26:35.520 Donald Trump would still be dealing with that nonsense if it weren't for Ashley. 0.56

01:26:38.380 And our friend Dave Ehrenberg, author of Fighting the Florida Shuffle.

01:26:42.900 He's former Palm Beach County attorney.

01:26:45.320 They're all contributors to MK True Crime. 0.83

01:26:47.480 So excited to have them.

01:26:48.340 Go subscribe now.

01:26:49.500 MKTrueCrime.com for all the links.

01:26:52.620 Welcome back.

01:26:53.380 Ashley, great to see you again.

01:26:54.900 Great to see you.

01:26:55.760 How have you been?

01:26:57.040 I've been so good.

01:26:57.880 I'm so glad that you are doing this.

01:26:59.500 You are such a wonderful commentator during the whole Fannie Willis thing and such a talented attorney.

01:27:04.000 So it's awesome that you're going to be part of this.

01:27:05.660 Thank you.

01:27:06.040 I'm so excited.

01:27:07.360 Yeah.

01:27:07.540 And you two guys, this is like, you know, you're family now.

01:27:10.480 So it's awesome to have you as part of it.

01:27:12.080 We couldn't launch this without you.

01:27:14.120 I'm only sorry that you won't be able to argue with Mike Davis on MK True Crime.

01:27:17.880 Yet.

01:27:18.400 Yet, Dave.

01:27:19.340 I might just get it.

01:27:20.380 Yet.

01:27:21.620 You know what?

01:27:22.360 I find myself agreeing with him more and more on social media, which is scary.

01:27:26.620 I don't know what the worlds are colliding that my head's blowing up.

01:27:31.180 But that's what happens when it comes to Middle East politics.

01:27:33.380 But that's another matter.

01:27:34.360 Oh, it's even more fun with Mike in person, too.

01:27:36.700 I mean, my word.

01:27:38.240 He's something else. 1.00

01:27:39.080 I love when people are like, you're an asshole. 1.00

01:27:42.460 And he's like, yes. 1.00

01:27:43.940 Like he never disputes any of the attacks that get leveled against him.

01:27:47.960 OK, let's just start with Russiagate because that's the harder news.

01:27:51.260 And then we've got to get to Jussie Smollett.

01:27:53.960 What a weird segment, but we've got to do it.

01:27:57.540 Russiagate.

01:27:58.040 OK, the DOJ is launching a grand jury investigation now into the Russiagate conspiracy allegations

01:28:04.880 per Fox News.

01:28:06.660 They've seen a letter from Bondi that they say she has directed her staff.

01:28:11.380 She did this late yesterday to act on the criminal referral from DNI Gabbard related to

01:28:16.800 the alleged conspiracy by the Obama administration to tie and Hillary to to tie President Trump

01:28:23.060 to Russia.

01:28:24.300 They have, we're told, convened a federal grand jury.

01:28:28.520 And we don't know exactly who they're looking at or for what.

01:28:31.680 But I'll just tell you this.

01:28:34.780 CIA Director John Ratcliffe did mention in his last Sunday news interview with Maria Bartiromo

01:28:41.340 the following dates.

01:28:43.040 And keep in mind, virtually every federal crime is like a five year statute of limitations

01:28:46.660 and perjury definitely has a five year statute of limitations.

01:28:50.140 Brennan, John Brennan, former head of the CIA under Obama, testified in private to John

01:28:54.200 Durham, who was the special counsel who investigated some of these Russiagate allegations during

01:28:58.520 Trump 1.0.

01:29:00.380 Brennan testified in private to John Durham August 21st, 2020.

01:29:06.320 Today's August 4th.

01:29:07.780 So what we got a couple of weeks until that one expires.

01:29:10.760 Hillary Clinton testified in private to John Durham in May 2022.

01:29:15.540 So a little bit more time there.

01:29:17.720 Brennan also testified behind closed doors to House Judiciary in May of 2023.

01:29:22.180 Comey, last time we can see him testifying publicly or privately is December 2018.

01:29:26.760 But if any of these acts, if they're part of an ongoing conspiracy, that would be the claim,

01:29:32.380 can be resurrected and used to keep the statute of limitations from from expiring.

01:29:36.980 So what does it say to you?

01:29:40.180 I'll start with you, Ashley Merchant, as you are clearly the biggest star here amongst our

01:29:45.520 legal panel.

01:29:46.420 You're very sweet.

01:29:47.180 I don't know if that's true.

01:29:48.000 But immediately as you're talking about this, I'm like, oh, it sounds like RICO.

01:29:51.500 It sounds like some conspiracy, a RICO conspiracy.

01:29:54.740 You know, the prosecutor's darling that you can take anything, whether it's past the statute

01:29:59.420 of limitations, you know, a crime or not, and you can make it into a RICO case, as we

01:30:03.520 learned through the Fonnie Willis saga.

01:30:05.660 The Democrats taught us that.

01:30:06.760 So, you know, what's good for the goose?

01:30:11.000 Exactly.

01:30:11.560 And so, you know, I think why not have a grand jury investigate this?

01:30:14.660 I mean, why not look at it?

01:30:16.080 I know there's a lot of unanswered questions.

01:30:18.660 And so, you know, put people under oath, put them on the stand, have them actually testify.

01:30:23.180 I know we're going to have them testify in front of the House as well.

01:30:25.900 See if their stories all match and see what happens, because as we've seen from live TV,

01:30:30.980 a lot of times when you have people on the stand, stories don't match.

01:30:34.140 Things change.

01:30:34.840 And so, you know, why not do this at this point?

01:30:37.560 Why not at least give the American people some more information?

01:30:41.040 What about it, Dave?

01:30:41.620 Because it's one thing Comer is subpoenaing a bunch of people in the Epstein investigation.

01:30:46.820 We started the show with that.

01:30:48.540 This is different.

01:30:49.760 It's I'd much rather get a subpoena from James Comer than to get a grand jury subpoena,

01:30:55.020 which is not to be trifled with.

01:30:57.280 Right.

01:30:57.560 Like that.

01:30:58.080 Now you're talking about, OK, actual criminal liability potentially.

01:31:01.420 And probably most of these people will plead the fifth.

01:31:03.700 No.

01:31:03.860 Well, it depends.

01:31:06.580 You know, there's the lesson of the John Durham investigation.

01:31:08.800 We saw this before where John Durham investigated and brought charges for perjury.

01:31:13.040 And then it blew up in his face as the two trials led to acquittals.

01:31:18.380 And so didn't go so well.

01:31:19.580 DOJ doesn't want that.

01:31:20.520 Yeah, it doesn't go so well.

01:31:21.580 So that's the built in protection.

01:31:22.860 There are guardrails.

01:31:23.700 So if the prosecutors go down the road and start trumping up charges, to use a phrase,

01:31:30.080 it's going to come back to bite them.

01:31:31.560 So you need to be careful.

01:31:32.460 Now, I can't say about the perjury because I don't know what Hillary Clinton and Comey 0.99

01:31:38.360 said to investigators.

01:31:40.240 I don't know that.

01:31:40.840 But I got to say, just like Andrew McCarthy, I'm I am skeptical of this whole Russiagate

01:31:47.360 thing, because a lot of this stuff stems from these emails that really were seems like Russian

01:31:53.680 disinformation.

01:31:54.240 I mean, that's why the report John Durham put those emails in the annex of his report

01:31:59.360 rather than the main part because he didn't believe me either.

01:32:01.940 There's also that John Brennan memo.

01:32:06.020 Now, that's the other thing people are focused on, which is explain what you're talking about.

01:32:10.480 Sure.

01:32:11.180 So a lot of this is focused on a note, a memo that John Brennan wrote from a meeting he

01:32:19.060 had with Obama and others where he allegedly talked about the so-called Clinton plan, which

01:32:24.860 is what Tulsi Gabbard is saying, aha, that's the plan where Hillary Clinton is creating this 0.99

01:32:31.860 whole Russia hoax.

01:32:33.260 And that's the way to win the election.

01:32:35.380 That is let me just let me just read it.

01:32:37.300 I'll just read it and then I'll let you resume.

01:32:39.160 Sure.

01:32:39.620 This is just a recap on his note.

01:32:41.740 He he made handwritten notes after an August 3rd, 2016 meeting at the White House where he

01:32:46.360 briefed Barack Obama and other U.S. officials, including the attorney general at the time,

01:32:50.640 Loretta Lynch and the FBI director, James Comey, about the Clinton plan, the notes claim he

01:32:56.860 alerted them to the, quote, alleged approval by Hillary Clinton on July 26th of a proposal

01:33:03.100 from one of her foreign policy advisors to vilify Donald Trump by stirring up a scandal

01:33:09.040 claiming interference by the Russian security services.

01:33:12.120 And the contention is that this was Brennan's CYA memo.

01:33:15.840 Like I told them that this is all a Hillary operation and every denial that's going to come

01:33:21.420 from these Obama officials thereafter saying we really believe Trump was a Russian asset is this

01:33:28.420 puts the lie to it because they were told in August of 16 this is all a Hillary plan.

01:33:33.620 Go ahead, Dave.

01:33:35.380 OK, well, the Russia investigation, the whole crossfire hurricane, the whole thing into Russia

01:33:41.260 election interference, that began before there was this Russian intelligence report.

01:33:46.840 That's the subject of all this.

01:33:48.140 So the Russian intelligence came up with this report that Hillary Clinton had a plan.

01:33:51.880 And then that was later discussed by John Brennan.

01:33:56.680 That is the whole source of this controversy.

01:33:59.300 But see, when John Brennan discussed this so-called Clinton plan.

01:34:03.220 Of course, we know she was behind the Steele dossier and that she was potentially behind

01:34:09.320 this CrowdStrike group as well that is believed that that is the one that said Russia hacked

01:34:17.020 the DNC and she that's she funded them, too. 1.00

01:34:20.340 So it's not all just, oh, some Russian email said she did this shit. 0.99

01:34:24.660 She her campaign was 100 percent behind that Steele dossier. 0.99

01:34:28.340 Well, remember, the Steele dossier didn't originally come from Hillary Clinton.

01:34:31.880 It came from the Republicans.

01:34:32.780 They're the ones who funded it and created it.

01:34:34.920 And then Hillary Clinton, DNC adopted it.

01:34:37.240 So, yeah, just just to let that be clear.

01:34:40.000 And also, keep in mind, Marco Rubio's Senate Intelligence Committee came out and said, yes,

01:34:44.240 there was Russian meddling in the election.

01:34:46.140 They were doing it to help Donald Trump.

01:34:47.760 We think it was a rubber stamp, but I got it.

01:34:50.280 All right.

01:34:50.640 But but just just to finish my point about Brennan, he did not endorse this as credible intelligence.

01:34:57.660 In fact, the context of his notes showed that intelligence officials were skeptical of

01:35:02.740 the authenticity of this so-called Clinton plan, because it came from what they believe was

01:35:08.720 Russian intelligence trying to create this is this information campaign.

01:35:12.120 So if they want to do a grand jury to look at stuff from it, it came what it were.

01:35:17.080 It really came from Hillary emails that had been unearthed by the Russians that they were discussing

01:35:22.720 from Hillary's top emissaries discussing the plan.

01:35:25.180 And they named the person on her team that came up with the plan.

01:35:28.420 But that actually was a Russian hack.

01:35:30.720 No, but but the person who allegedly sent the email and the person who received the email

01:35:35.780 both said they've never seen this before.

01:35:37.380 And if you look at the emails, I've read both of them.

01:35:39.540 They certainly weren't totally disavowed.

01:35:40.920 Emails from Russian disinformation.

01:35:42.580 Yeah, that's why John Durham didn't put it in his main report.

01:35:45.340 He put it in the annex.

01:35:46.340 Don't you think that if this was a real email that John Durham would have put it on page one?

01:35:50.300 Because that's the point of his investigation.

01:35:52.440 Instead, he he put it in the annex of his report because he didn't believe them either.

01:35:56.800 But that's why did the annex go to the grand jury?

01:35:59.480 Why did the annex go to the CIA safe at Langley and where it was buried to the point where

01:36:03.940 even the archivist didn't get a copy?

01:36:05.260 Nobody got a copy of it.

01:36:06.300 Why?

01:36:06.680 That that just stinks to high heaven because there was something in there that they didn't

01:36:09.900 want us to see.

01:36:10.880 But, Ashley, your point is the grand jury will help bring some of this to light.

01:36:13.260 Phil, let me get you to weigh in your thoughts.

01:36:15.100 Yeah.

01:36:15.400 So, look, I mean, there's a lot going on here, a lot to unpack.

01:36:17.900 Let me go back to the statute of limitations.

01:36:19.860 Yes, it's true.

01:36:20.480 There's a five year general federal statute of limitations.

01:36:23.600 But see, the crime that I'm thinking about, if I'm a grand jury or I'm a prosecutor presenting

01:36:29.220 this case to a grand jury, is seditious conspiracy, which by definition involves a conspiracy,

01:36:35.660 right?

01:36:35.940 So any acts that are taken at any point, you know, during the conspiracy before it's over

01:36:42.400 and who knows, the conspiracy could actually still be going on today if there are members

01:36:47.400 of the conspiracy that are trying to cover up the conspiracy.

01:36:50.600 So conspiracies can last a very long time, in which case there really would be no statute

01:36:56.200 of limitations issue for things of that nature.

01:36:59.420 But see, the thing is with Durham, he went and he briefed the president of the United States

01:37:04.180 and he said, look, we know this is Hillary Clinton.

01:37:07.820 We know that she's coming up with a scam to blame Trump for being a Russian agent.

01:37:12.660 And I'm sorry.

01:37:13.860 Yeah, Brennan.

01:37:14.440 So then he briefed the president, President Obama, and the U.S. intelligence services are

01:37:21.900 skeptical that any of this is true.

01:37:23.800 But then he takes it and he ramrods it down the throats of the intelligence community,

01:37:29.240 makes them come up with a new assessment at the direction of the president of the United

01:37:33.300 States.

01:37:33.720 And then they just drop this bomb, basically, that explodes and tears up American society

01:37:39.800 and they all leave office.

01:37:41.460 And so after they leave office, are we to believe that they didn't communicate with each

01:37:45.740 other?

01:37:46.120 Are we to believe they didn't go and testify contrary to the facts?

01:37:50.540 Are we to believe that they didn't go on television and say things in furtherance of

01:37:54.980 the conspiracy?

01:37:55.840 So if they find the conspiracy and it's a criminal one, I don't think we're going to have one

01:38:01.640 bit of a problem with the statute of limitations.

01:38:04.600 I'm glad a grand jury is looking at this because this is the kind of thing that, you know, it

01:38:09.640 can't be done on the spot.

01:38:11.700 It can't be done quickly.

01:38:13.040 It needs to have a very thorough grand jury investigation.

01:38:16.360 And with all due respect to my friend Dave, I think there's more there than he thinks is

01:38:22.580 there.

01:38:22.880 He thinks there's no there there.

01:38:24.300 I think there is definitely something there.

01:38:27.100 Whether they can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, we'll just have to wait and see.

01:38:30.980 But I definitely think there's something there worth a grand jury taking a look at.

01:38:35.700 And I think seditious conspiracy is probably the way to go.

01:38:39.800 Let me ask you this, Ashley, as somebody who just was in the middle of a RICO case, and

01:38:43.600 I'm not saying this would be RICO, but my point is simply RICO cases, as this case, are

01:38:47.860 complicated.

01:38:49.400 They are really complicated.

01:38:51.000 And I think this is a problem that the Trump side, this DOJ, is going to have.

01:38:57.400 I mean, I've been I can't even tell you the number of hours I've spent reading materials

01:39:01.520 on this over the past two weeks.

01:39:03.180 And I'm a lawyer.

01:39:04.920 I'm I'm a journalist.

01:39:06.340 You know, I do this kind of thing for a living.

01:39:08.160 I'm still confused.

01:39:09.760 So they're going to try to explain this to a grand jury in a way that's really simple

01:39:16.680 and they can understand what they're indicting and why.

01:39:21.100 Like, good luck.

01:39:22.940 I say that all the time.

01:39:23.800 I mean, I say lawyers can't figure out RICO.

01:39:26.260 You know, how do we expect jurors to?

01:39:27.680 But I think that's going to come down to where they decide to do this jury.

01:39:31.620 Are they going to do it in D.C.

01:39:32.760 or are they going to do it in Florida?

01:39:34.540 And that is where it really matters when you analyze your jury pool, because a RICO case,

01:39:39.600 a lot of times you just throw a lot of stuff up and hope something sticks.

01:39:42.720 And if you have a jury pool that is very politically motivated one way versus a jury pool

01:39:47.540 politically motivated another way, you're likely to get a conviction.

01:39:50.460 You're likely to get an indictment based on that.

01:39:52.580 And so I think it's going to be really vital if they want to pursue this to to determine

01:39:56.480 do you want to hear it in D.C., where you probably have a jury pool that's not going

01:40:00.320 to be as receptive to it, or do you want to hear it in South Florida?

01:40:04.000 OK, so this is I thought was very interesting, Dave Ehrenberg, that that there's speculation

01:40:08.900 that eventually that this people are wondering where the grand jury is.

01:40:11.880 Where do they convene it?

01:40:12.720 Did they convene it in D.C., which would be a terrible jury pool for anybody named Trump

01:40:16.980 or related to Trump and much more favorable to Obama, Clinton, Brennan, et cetera?

01:40:21.540 Or did they go to South Florida?

01:40:22.940 And now I've heard multiple people who are close to Trump on air, podcasts and TV and so

01:40:28.680 on, continuing to mention the raid at Mar-a-Lago.

01:40:31.440 The raid at Mar-a-Lago was key.

01:40:34.580 They were actually looking for the House intelligence report.

01:40:39.820 That's really what the FBI was doing there.

01:40:43.040 And look, they may have been on a fishing expedition for Russiagate documents because that was still

01:40:47.380 the left's pet project.

01:40:49.020 But I think that's going to be the key.

01:40:51.620 That's they're going to use that to make this a South Florida grand jury. 0.98

01:40:54.980 Right.

01:40:55.480 Your hometown.

01:40:56.260 That's where they're going to go.

01:40:57.260 What do you think?

01:40:57.800 Because there's no way they prefer D.C. over Florida.

01:41:00.340 Oh, my goodness.

01:41:02.360 D.C., I think, voted five percent for Donald Trump.

01:41:05.080 I don't think they want to go to D.C.

01:41:06.660 They definitely want to go to the red state of Florida.

01:41:09.060 And now Dade County in Miami has turned has turned red.

01:41:13.220 So, yeah, I think you're right.

01:41:14.220 But as far as the connection to the raid on Mar-a-Lago, there was a search warrant that

01:41:19.260 said that evidence exists of a crime at Mar-a-Lago relating to the retention of documents.

01:41:25.600 That's why they searched Mar-a-Lago had nothing to do with trying to get the House intelligence

01:41:29.700 report here that I don't even understand where they're coming from with that conspiracy

01:41:33.480 theory.

01:41:33.960 It caught me by surprise, too.

01:41:36.520 Yeah, like that's the only place.

01:41:37.980 But then when I thought about grand jury jurisdiction, it started to make some more sense and potential

01:41:42.380 criminal case liability.

01:41:43.680 Well, I think it's clear that they want to have that grand jury in South Florida.

01:41:48.040 And it's because they don't want to in D.C.

01:41:50.280 And South Florida is a becoming redder and redder.

01:41:54.280 It is still not easy, I think, to get an indictment through a grand jury on this matter, because

01:42:00.400 you see the arguments that I've been making.

01:42:02.800 You've got to show enough where you're going to move ahead with a criminal prosecution.

01:42:07.840 And although it only takes probable cause, we saw this backfire when it came to Andrew

01:42:13.120 McCabe.

01:42:13.580 Apparently, when the administration, Trump administration, wanted to prosecute Andrew

01:42:17.000 McCabe from the FBI, they couldn't do so.

01:42:19.800 They couldn't get a grand jury to vote that way.

01:42:22.580 So it's not automatic.

01:42:23.900 And even if you do get an indictment, a judge can throw it out later, or you can meet the

01:42:28.840 same fate as John Durham, where a jury quickly acquits.

01:42:31.540 So you've got to be careful before you go down this road.

01:42:34.540 I think they're interested in making them pay, even if the process is the payment.

01:42:39.200 Go ahead, Phil.

01:42:40.440 Yeah, I was going to just to dovetail on that.

01:42:42.880 I think Florida does make more sense.

01:42:44.860 But I don't understand how Florida, the nexus, I don't see how the nexus to Florida could

01:42:49.940 be the raid on Mar-a-Lago.

01:42:52.320 Maybe there's obviously things that I don't know.

01:42:54.340 But when you have a judge that authorizes a judicial search warrant, the judge says,

01:42:58.880 look, there's probable cause to believe there's fruits or instrumentalities of a crime, and

01:43:02.860 I'll authorize you to go search this specific place.

01:43:05.760 I think to a large degree, that might insulate any purported defendants that are part of some

01:43:12.740 conspiracy from that piece of it being some act that's in furtherance of the conspiracy.

01:43:18.300 There's certainly a Florida nexus, because that's obviously the home now of President

01:43:23.460 Trump when he's not in Washington, of course.

01:43:26.380 But you could really make the case that any federal district in the United States would

01:43:30.600 be proper, because this is something that had sort of national consequences.

01:43:34.680 But I'm a little bit dubious of using the raid on Mar-a-Lago as being some act in furtherance

01:43:41.740 of this potential conspiracy that would give rise to the prosecution being there.

01:43:46.460 I think they're going to have to find something else.

01:43:48.440 Certainly, we're going to learn a lot more about the raid on Mar-a-Lago.

01:43:51.660 But in my opinion, that search warrant probably insulates these defendants from a lot of that.

01:43:56.980 But speaking of these defendants, let me just say this.

01:43:58.840 Let me just say this.

01:43:59.320 I heard it now, I heard it from Devin Nunes, and I heard it from John Solomon.

01:44:04.520 Not directly, I'm saying in broadcast that they were on.

01:44:07.440 And those are two people who are very close to the allegations around this issue.

01:44:10.900 So it was no accident that they're both now suggesting that that Mar-a-Lago raid was about

01:44:15.800 Russiagate and not just recovering documents.

01:44:19.480 And I don't know whether that's an attempt to get a grand jury, to justify a Florida grand jury.

01:44:24.920 But it did jump out at me as like, why are they raising that?

01:44:27.740 There's so much more to talk about.

01:44:29.320 They both raised it.

01:44:30.680 And so it could be this.

01:44:32.320 Go ahead, Phil.

01:44:32.800 I think they have to have evidence that whoever swore out that warrant with a judge, that maybe

01:44:38.540 they lied to the judge or that it was somehow a pretext.

01:44:41.320 There could be your stated reason and your real reason.

01:44:43.940 Yeah, they're going to have to have something to call that into question because the warrant,

01:44:47.320 the existence of the warrant, I think, does provide some insulation.

01:44:50.080 But you've got a lot of people that are potential defendants right now that I think are

01:44:54.040 lawyering up.

01:44:54.700 People who have testified previously might get called to testify before this grand jury.

01:44:59.060 They might be immunized.

01:45:00.320 Who knows?

01:45:01.000 But they're going to have to go through and they're going to have to memorize almost verbatim

01:45:04.220 every word of everything they've ever said on television, radio, podcast, streaming, or

01:45:09.680 under oath anywhere because they can't stray from that one iota.

01:45:15.000 They've got a lot of work to do to make sure they don't run into some problems with respect

01:45:19.500 to perjury and false statements.

01:45:21.840 Okay.

01:45:22.820 Okay.

01:45:23.160 Let's shift gears now because I know Ashley's short on time. 1.00

01:45:25.860 You guys can stick around, but we have got to talk about Jussie Smollett.

01:45:30.260 He's back.

01:45:32.200 Amazingly, he's back at it again.

01:45:35.280 Netflix is about to drop a so-called documentary.

01:45:40.080 And I'm telling you, Netflix uses that term.

01:45:42.840 It's like Princess Bride.

01:45:44.460 I do not think you know what that term means.

01:45:46.140 They don't do documentaries.

01:45:49.180 There are sometimes mockumentaries.

01:45:51.520 Yeah, shockumentary.

01:45:52.620 They are not always fact-based.

01:45:55.620 And this one is called The Truth About Jussie Smollett with a question mark.

01:46:02.300 Okay. 0.99

01:46:02.480 So like even they know they're about to peddle a bunch of bullshit from the sound of it. 0.99

01:46:07.860 We don't have a trailer. 0.99

01:46:08.960 They haven't dropped one yet.

01:46:10.040 But here's what they say.

01:46:11.560 The doc tells, quote, the shocking true story of an allegedly fake story that some now say

01:46:20.740 might just be a true story.

01:46:23.600 They are prepared, it sounds like, to come out here and suggest that he might have been

01:46:29.700 telling the truth.

01:46:31.580 And Smollett is definitely pushing that.

01:46:34.320 We've got the following tour from him.

01:46:35.980 Again, he was touring local organizations to whom he donated in the civil settlement of

01:46:44.260 his lie case. 0.99

01:46:45.760 The Chicago PD sued his ass for wasting all their time in chasing down a fake race hoax 1.00

01:46:51.940 allegation. 0.99

01:46:53.300 Just for listening audience, I'm sure you remember this, but he was an actor on the show Entourage.

01:46:57.320 He claimed during Trump 1.0 that in the middle of the Chicago vortex, which was like minus four

01:47:01.940 degrees in the middle of the night, 2 a.m. on a Friday or Saturday, he was walking through

01:47:05.820 Chicago innocently when two guys wearing MAGA hats on South Chicago jumped him.

01:47:12.380 They just happened to have a bottle of bleach and a rope, a noose, which they placed around

01:47:18.000 his neck and said something like, this is MAGA country, and left for Jesse sitting there,

01:47:24.240 wasted everybody's time.

01:47:25.300 He went on Robin Roberts on Good Morning America, who could not have been more sympathetic,

01:47:29.280 as was most of the media that wanted to believe this is a racist country and there's random 0.86

01:47:33.720 MAGA racists on every corner waiting with nooses for any innocent black man who walks 0.97

01:47:39.640 by. 1.00

01:47:40.080 It was all fucking bullshit. 1.00

01:47:42.060 He got arrested. 1.00

01:47:44.160 He was actually then released by a woke prosecutor in Chicago.

01:47:48.160 And then the outrage was so great, they rearrested him.

01:47:52.640 And this special prosecutor, Dan Webb, was appointed.

01:47:55.800 He was found guilty.

01:47:57.780 And then he appealed saying, I shouldn't have been tried because the first prosecutor already

01:48:02.080 let me go.

01:48:03.120 And he won that argument in front of the appellate court, the Illinois Supreme Court, who found

01:48:09.000 Dan Webb's decision to retry him violated that earlier agreement.

01:48:13.120 So in any event, he then had to face a civil suit from the city of Chicago and he wound up

01:48:17.580 paying $130,000 or they sued for $130,000 and he wound up settling for some smaller amount.

01:48:23.840 And so he is walking around touring the organizations that received the benefit of his settlement

01:48:29.320 like he's some, you know, benevolent caretaker, just did it out of the goodness of his heart

01:48:34.800 and says the following.

01:48:36.300 It'll make sense when y'all watch it.

01:48:40.940 Okay.

01:48:41.280 Because he says there's unreleased footage coming that's going to prove he did not stage this

01:48:45.720 attack.

01:48:46.480 It'll make sense when y'all watch it.

01:48:48.840 They found the actual footage of the people that jumped me and it just corroborates every

01:48:55.800 single thing that I've said for the last almost seven years.

01:49:00.120 Ashley Merchant, do we believe one word of any of that?

01:49:04.940 No, because if he had that footage, that footage would be everywhere.

01:49:09.440 There is no way he's going to be holding onto that footage.

01:49:11.960 And there is no way to believe what he said is that his lawyers decided strategy not to

01:49:17.680 use this footage, that they had it, but they decided not to use it.

01:49:20.740 Are you trying to tell me that there's a defense lawyer that's going to have footage that

01:49:23.900 exonerates their client and they're going to decide for strategy not to use it at trial?

01:49:28.740 No.

01:49:28.940 And that's what he said.

01:49:30.800 The quote is, well, the footage was brought to my lawyers a couple days before we started

01:49:36.040 trial and they were like, yeah, we already got our defense.

01:49:40.220 So it's too late to bring that in.

01:49:42.200 We can't do anything about it.

01:49:44.280 They did not go with the truth.

01:49:46.400 They went with defending against the lies, Ashley.

01:49:50.220 That's insane.

01:49:51.280 There's no defense attorney that's going to do that.

01:49:53.060 You're going to jump up and down.

01:49:54.120 I would be as loud as I possibly could.

01:49:55.800 That footage would be everywhere.

01:49:56.940 The judge would be, I would be begging for continuance, playing the footage over and

01:50:00.680 over again.

01:50:01.400 No way.

01:50:02.140 No way.

01:50:02.700 At a minimum, you'd release it to the media.

01:50:04.640 All right.

01:50:04.800 I know you've got to run.

01:50:05.640 We will see you over on MK True Crime.

01:50:08.820 Go ahead now.

01:50:09.320 Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and go to youtube.com slash at MK True Crime and

01:50:16.200 watch all these superstars, including Ashley, tomorrow and then again on Friday.

01:50:20.980 For now, we're starting with two days a week.

01:50:22.680 Something tells me it's going to get a lot more popular.

01:50:24.380 Okay, Phil and Dave, let us not forget that the two men, the two black men, by the way,

01:50:32.300 they were not white.

01:50:33.620 We were told that they were white men. 0.54

01:50:35.000 The two black men who he hired to conduct this fake crime against him are already on

01:50:41.940 record as saying that's what happened.

01:50:44.480 There hasn't been like, it's not like, oh, we never found the guys, but we believe he

01:50:48.000 was a race hoaxer.

01:50:48.860 We just don't believe the claims.

01:50:49.960 No, they found the guys he paid.

01:50:53.540 He actually had this kind of done to him.

01:50:56.340 It was done to him.

01:50:57.920 It's just, he was in on it.

01:50:59.760 He asked for it to be done to him.

01:51:01.540 And not only do we have to like wonder whether these guys exist and really did tell their

01:51:06.060 story to cops, they reenacted it for Fox News for a documentary on Fox Nation like two

01:51:13.540 years ago.

01:51:14.180 Here's a clip.

01:51:15.320 Wait, stand by, stand by.

01:51:16.700 Here is a clip.

01:51:19.180 So we waited here for about what?

01:51:21.800 Four minutes.

01:51:22.380 It was about four minutes.

01:51:23.440 Four minutes.

01:51:23.960 But it felt like forever. 0.56

01:51:25.560 Because it was cold as balls.

01:51:27.740 As we crossed the street, we said hey to get his attention. 0.99

01:51:32.320 Hey, n***. 0.99

01:51:33.260 Hey. 0.98

01:51:33.920 He turned around, looked at us.

01:51:36.220 And that's when we started yelling the famous slurs he wanted us to yell. 0.97

01:51:41.980 Hey, aren't you that empire n***? 0.87

01:51:44.500 It's MAGA country. 0.97

01:51:45.920 He wanted it to look like he fought back.

01:51:48.540 That was very important for him. 1.00

01:51:50.520 Because he said, hey, don't just beat my ass. 0.99

01:51:53.260 Make it look like I'm fighting back and whatnot. 0.99

01:51:55.320 After I threw him to the ground, I used my knuckle and gave him a noogie.

01:51:59.380 I finally put the rope around his face.

01:52:01.580 I did not put it around his neck.

01:52:03.020 I just placed it on his face, and that's when we took off.

01:52:09.460 Like the greatest documentary ever on Fox Nation.

01:52:12.780 Those are the Osundario brothers who reenacted their attack, their hoax. 0.93

01:52:17.280 Then, Phil, so how do you like the chances of this Netflix documentary rehabilitating Jussie Smollett?

01:52:23.880 Well, look, I'm disappointed in Netflix.

01:52:26.120 But look, this is what you're going to expect from Smollett.

01:52:29.260 But in my opinion, this is a continuation of the grift that he tried to get going and get some traction some time ago, many years ago now at this point.

01:52:38.700 This is all about attention.

01:52:40.760 I'm sure there's some way he's going to try to profit and make money off of it, in my view.

01:52:45.540 I think that's really the best explanation for all this.

01:52:48.920 Look, are we supposed to believe that there are two people in South Chicago back then that actually owned and much less would wear a MAGA hat out in public?

01:53:00.520 Absolutely not.

01:53:01.880 They troll the streets at night with their bleach and their noose, Phil. 1.00

01:53:05.760 In addition to the two guys he hired to do that shit. 1.00

01:53:10.840 Now, there were real perps who were doing the exact same thing. 1.00

01:53:14.180 Yeah, it's just a grift.

01:53:18.340 And look, this whole thing goes back to the prosecutor's office in the very beginning.

01:53:21.720 Was it Kim Foxx, I guess, was her name, right?

01:53:23.640 Yeah, Kim Foxx.

01:53:24.040 She's the one that started this whole pretrial diversion thing, which she should never have done in the first place.

01:53:30.780 But, of course, she put him in this pretrial diversion agreement.

01:53:33.900 And the courts later said that you couldn't go back and re-prosecute him after you ran him through pretrial diversion.

01:53:40.040 And to me, as a lawyer, that actually kind of makes sense.

01:53:42.220 But it doesn't make sense to give him pretrial diversion in the first place, considering how many resources were expended and how much money it cost and things of that nature.

01:53:50.820 But she, of course, leaves office and just drops this, you know what, in the punch bowl, right, and leaves it there for other people to have to clean up for years and years to come.

01:54:02.040 And guess who the big losers are?

01:54:04.080 It's the taxpayers of Chicago, because now this civil settlement, the taxpayers don't even get their money back.

01:54:10.840 It goes to some nonprofit, and it has nothing to do with repaying the police or repaying the taxpayers of Chicago. 0.97

01:54:17.900 They are the losers. 0.99

01:54:18.860 I agree. 1.00

01:54:19.440 Unfair losers. 0.99

01:54:20.620 But you know what? 1.00

01:54:21.680 Like, not that anybody believed it on the right half of the country, but the left, a lot of people believed it, that these MAGA cretins beat this poor black man. 0.98

01:54:30.060 And so MAGA got hurt. 0.95

01:54:32.840 Like, he's paid nothing to MAGA and the smears that he made of them.

01:54:37.000 Like, this was all made up to demean MAGA, to demean Trump, to demean our country.

01:54:43.020 Look at this.

01:54:44.280 Look at him with Robin Roberts telling these lies.

01:54:47.940 Watch.

01:54:48.200 As I was crossing the intersection, I heard, Empire.

01:54:54.800 And I don't answer to Empire.

01:54:57.080 My name ain't Empire.

01:55:00.140 And I didn't answer.

01:55:01.400 I kept walking.

01:55:02.200 And then I heard, Empire.

01:55:04.420 So I turned around, and I said, the did you just say to me?

01:55:07.800 And I see the attacker masked.

01:55:14.100 And he said, this MAGA country punches me right in the face. 1.00

01:55:20.460 So I punched his ass back. 1.00

01:55:22.660 And then we started tussling. 1.00

01:55:24.480 You know, it was very icy.

01:55:26.240 And we ended up tussling by the stairs, fighting, fighting, fighting.

01:55:31.440 There was a second person involved who was kicking me in my back.

01:55:35.960 And then it just stopped.

01:55:39.860 And then I looked down, and I see that there's a rope around my neck, which I hadn't obviously.

01:55:44.460 You hadn't noticed it before?

01:55:45.340 No, because it was so fast.

01:55:46.760 You know what I'm saying?

01:55:47.160 It was so fast.

01:55:47.860 It's like high drama, Dave, except it was all lies.

01:55:54.900 And now, and now, hold on.

01:55:56.300 I've got to put my glasses on.

01:55:57.140 This is the smallest type.

01:55:58.420 So now, he posted this on Instagram right after the settlement news hit.

01:56:04.180 Over six years ago, after it was reported, I had been, after it was reported, I had been jumped.

01:56:09.820 How did that get reported, Jussie?

01:56:11.320 Oh, wait.

01:56:12.200 You lied publicly.

01:56:13.600 Actually, city officials in Chicago set out to convince the public that I willfully set an assault against myself.

01:56:22.960 See, he's holding on to the lie.

01:56:24.660 He says, this false narrative has left a stain, a stain, Dave, on my character that will not soon disappear.

01:56:33.740 These officials wanted my money and wanted my confession for something I did not do.

01:56:39.600 Today, it should be clear, they have received neither.

01:56:45.180 The decision to settle was difficult, but it wasn't the hardest thing.

01:56:50.480 But, but, but, but, and I'm going, he's maintained a lie. 0.98

01:56:52.540 This, how dare Netflix give this loser a platform to repeat this nonsense? 0.99

01:56:58.260 I'm with you. 1.00

01:56:59.200 I mean, this guy's a liar. 1.00

01:57:00.320 He's living in a fantasy world, and he thinks we're all stupid. 1.00

01:57:03.120 I mean, he's the one who's stupid. 1.00

01:57:04.600 He actually paid these two brothers $3,500 in a check. 1.00

01:57:08.280 He wrote a check.

01:57:09.160 So, it's easy to trace.

01:57:11.140 I mean, and when it came to the prosecutor, it was Kim Foxx.

01:57:17.020 So, I was a state attorney at the time when this was going on, and I was surprised because when the prosecutor, the state's attorney there, acknowledged a conflict,

01:57:26.640 instead of bringing on a special prosecutor, she appointed her top deputy as the prosecutor. 0.87

01:57:32.660 That's not like a conflict of interest where you're having independent prosecutor when you put your number one deputy, your second person in charge, in charge of the case.

01:57:42.680 And so, the National District Attorney Association, this national organization I'm a part of, chastised her, said that when you recuse yourself from a case, you don't appoint your deputy because that's a conflict of interest.

01:57:53.340 So, one more thing about this is that I rarely get a chance to correct Megyn Kelly, but the show is Empire, not Entourage.

01:58:01.900 So, there's a first for everything.

01:58:03.320 I actually get to correct you on something.

01:58:04.680 You're totally right about that, yes.

01:58:06.900 And, like, just hearing him retell it, right, brings home how obviously false it was, Bill.

01:58:14.840 Like, oh, Empire, N-word, in the middle of it.

01:58:18.520 Like, these two MAGA guys were just lying in wait, and they just happened to run into this no-name actor who literally nobody knew,

01:58:25.540 and recognized him as starring in Empire, okay, and were ready with their tools.

01:58:31.800 And yet, here he's going to say, and Netflix is apparently going to say, that there's previously unreleased footage that may prove he did not stage this.

01:58:43.300 That, like, I don't have any idea how they could, because they say they're inviting audiences to decide for themselves who's telling the truth about Jussie Smollett.

01:58:53.980 And here's one more.

01:58:55.940 Gagan Rehill, he's the director, says as follows.

01:58:59.120 This story is a thrilling ride, and we were lucky enough to have access to the key players.

01:59:05.140 I wanted this film to speak to the particular moment of rapid cultural change when this takes place in 2019,

01:59:10.520 when, as a society, we were becoming more combative, more polarized, more divergent over our shared reality,

01:59:17.560 when we began to lack a common singular truth.

01:59:21.840 What?

01:59:22.200 So I don't understand a lot of things, starting with why, when he gives that interview, why she doesn't ask any, you know, follow-up questions, right?

01:59:32.520 It's like, okay, where did you find guys in South Chicago with MAGA hats?

01:59:37.620 How does that even happen?

01:59:38.560 That's like the first question I would want to know.

01:59:40.400 But look, if these lawyers supposedly had evidence that squarely contradicts the claims made by prosecutors against him,

01:59:50.320 it would be malpractice and almost criminal negligence, almost, to the point of just sitting on that and not bringing it as part of a defense.

01:59:57.920 And I'm just wondering, if I'm that lawyer or these lawyers who he's now, in my opinion, defaming by saying,

02:00:07.700 look, I had clear proof that I was innocent and my lawyers refused to use it, my word, that's quite the claim to be making against your criminal lawyers

02:00:17.640 who have, you know, professional reputations and saying things like that.

02:00:21.740 You know, I'm just wondering if that might not give rise to some kind of claim by them now against Smollett or perhaps against Netflix for even, you know,

02:00:32.120 bringing such a ridiculous claim forward because there's just no way any responsible lawyer would sit on evidence that squarely contradicts, you know, the prosecutor's claim.

02:00:43.560 Not only at the time, but to have it, you know, be locked away under some locking key in a secret vault or whatever for five years.

02:00:51.280 It just doesn't pass the smell test, much like his initial claims don't even pass the smell test.

02:00:57.480 No reasonable person would believe it.

02:00:59.560 I mean, I can't wait to see how this filmmaker incorporates the Osandario brothers and their reenactment.

02:01:06.480 I look forward to seeing how he handles that piece of the show.

02:01:10.360 And as soon as it hits, we will all get back together.

02:01:13.680 We'll discuss it here.

02:01:14.560 And I know you guys will talk about it over on MK True Crime, the new podcast.

02:01:18.820 It drops every Wednesday and Friday.

02:01:21.420 It's got all these smart legal contributors that you saw today.

02:01:24.120 Guys, thank you, Phil.

02:01:25.160 Thank you.

02:01:25.720 You too, Dave.

02:01:27.540 Always happy to be here.

02:01:28.520 Thank you.

02:01:30.320 OK, so that's just a sampling of the all-star cast that we have who's going to be hosting these discussions and participating in these discussions.

02:01:38.340 So it'll be a rotating cast over there of all your faves.

02:01:42.300 I'm really excited for this because I think people love the legal segments on The Megyn Kelly Show, which will continue.

02:01:47.800 But this is an expanded version where these guys will be oftentimes without me, sometimes with me, and on their own discussing, in the same way they do here, all these great legal cases.

02:01:58.760 More is more in this particular case.

02:02:00.680 So I hope you enjoy it.

02:02:01.920 Go ahead.

02:02:02.140 You can just go to true crime, mktruecrime.com, mktruecrime.com.

02:02:05.740 That'll tell you how to subscribe to everything.

02:02:08.040 But as I point out, you can easily just go to podcasts, type in mktruecrime and subscribe, or go to youtube.com slash at mktruecrime.

02:02:18.060 All right.

02:02:18.320 We'll see you tomorrow with Charlie Kirk.

02:02:21.500 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

02:02:23.400 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

02:02:32.140 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

The Megyn Kelly Show - August 05, 2025

Epstein and Ghislaine, Possible Diddy Pardon, and Trump Suing WSJ, with MK True Crime Contributors

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