The Megyn Kelly Show - January 26, 2023

Erasing What Makes Women Women, and COVID Lockdown Protests, with Mary Katharine Ham, Bethany Mandel, Winston Sterzel, and Matthew Tye ｜ Ep. 480

Topics

teenage girl encounter in YMCA bathroom gender appropriation transgender safety concerns end of discussion about how the left is shutting down speech no_gender_messaging_and_consequences China experience and changes communist manifestations in China inner mongolia raid Chinese government intimidation tactics kidnapping in China China protests and zero COVID policy subway travel by children

Hosted by

Megyn Kelly

Guests

Mary Katharine Ham Bethany Mandel Winston Sterzel and Matthew Tye

Kavanaugh Character Assassination, and America's Place in the World, with Victor Davis Hanson and Mike Pompeo ｜ Ep. 479 Pelosi Bodycam Footage Revealed, and Pfizer Exec Caught on Tape, with Michael Knowles and Mike Baker ｜ Ep. 481

Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 35 minutes

Words per minute

191.96

Word count

18,262

Sentence count

1,317

Harmful content

Misogyny

60

sentences flagged

Toxicity

45

sentences flagged

Hate speech

106

sentences flagged

Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

A 17-year-old girl claims to have seen a "naked male" at a YMCA in San Diego, California. Megyn and her co-hosts Mary Catherine Ham and Bethany Mandel discuss the latest. Plus, a new segment on China.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).

Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .

Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .

Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .

Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.

Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.

Show only flagged segments

00:00:00.560 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.860 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.220 She's had a very funny laugh with Abby. Sorry, she's sitting here. We crack each other up some days.

00:00:20.820 Later today, we're going to have a fascinating discussion on China from two Americans,

00:00:24.520 well, two non-Chinese citizens who went over there and thought,

00:00:28.600 hey, let's give this a try. It's beautiful. It's all made. Holy shit.

00:00:32.780 And promptly got out of there and had a very eye-opening experience. And they're here to 0.99

00:00:37.680 tell you all about it. But first, major follow-up to a story we brought you last week regarding the

00:00:43.080 teenage girl who spoke out after she encountered a, quote, naked male in a local YMCA bathroom in

00:00:51.060 Santee, California. Since then, there have been several updates in this story, and it all culminated

00:00:58.340 last night in a very heated local city council meeting. Excuse me. I better not be getting

00:01:04.020 Doug's flu. Doug is battling the flu. No, I feel good. I'm good. And say a prayer for Doug,

00:01:08.500 who is not doing so well. Joining me now to discuss all the latest, Mary Catherine Ham,

00:01:13.280 host of the Getting Hammered podcast, and Bethany Mandel, editor of the children's book series,

00:01:18.760 Heroes of Liberty, and contributing writer at Deseret News. Great to have you both. Welcome,

00:01:24.620 ladies. Thank you so much. Glad to be here. Thank you. Yes. All right. So congrats,

00:01:29.920 Bethany. I see you've got your little one. Is this your latest? Yeah. And Mary Catherine is

00:01:35.140 showing me up by being kid-free and more newly postpartum. You know what? I'm just not as brave

00:01:41.520 with my brain or my baby as Bethany is. So separate room for the baby so that the brain can do what it's

00:01:47.860 supposed to do. Same, same. I hope, Bethany, you had the same reaction that I did to Meghan Markle

00:01:53.460 being like, and I did the Australian tour where everyone was applauding me and loving me while

00:01:59.280 pregnant. I know. It was so hard. It was so hard walking around while working. How difficult for you

00:02:07.820 to juggle gestating? Literally, all you have to do is just exist to gestate. It's so true. Okay,

00:02:16.000 sorry. I'm sure she had no help, guys. No staff. I'm sure she had absolutely nobody taking care of

00:02:20.120 her whatsoever. And by the way, no one was asking how she was either. No one. Let's talk about what's

00:02:26.540 happening out in California, in SoCal. So we've had Carrie Prejean and Britt Mayer coming on. We've been

00:02:34.500 talking about their efforts as these two sort of mom warriors to fight back against the overreaches by

00:02:40.480 the very activist trans community, right? Very activist in sort of taking over women's spaces. 0.99

00:02:47.380 And these two, they don't care what they get called. They show up and they say,

00:02:52.040 no, hard pass. And they do get called a lot of names, but it's not about them.

00:02:56.740 It's about this 17-year-old girl who came out and her name is Rebecca Phillips. And she showed up at

00:03:01.900 the Santee City Council meeting to say, I'm 17 and I was at the Y and I saw a naked male. And

00:03:08.520 I object. I object to having been put through that. I object to the thought of my five-year-old

00:03:13.720 little sister potentially having to deal with that. And I will say this. She didn't say she saw

00:03:19.480 a naked penis. Sorry to drop the P word in the first three minutes of the show. But she said she saw 1.00

00:03:24.920 a naked male just to take a walk down memories lane. Here's what she said in part. Rebecca Phillips

00:03:30.560 sought six. As I was showering after my workout, I saw a naked male in the women's locker room. 0.97

00:03:37.620 I immediately went back into the shower, terrified, and hid behind their flimsy excuse 0.97

00:03:42.380 for a curtain until he was gone. So the Y has to allow people like a trans woman to use the women's 1.00

00:03:51.780 bathroom because California state law says they must. It's a law out there. The Y wasn't particularly 0.93

00:03:59.400 apologetic either. Well, now the person who says that she is the trans woman that was seen by Rebecca

00:04:08.020 has come forward. And I don't know whether that's true or not, but I know this person has a history

00:04:13.460 at this Y of being a biological male, but going in and using the women's locker room and doing protests

00:04:19.600 and having all sorts of commotion around the fact that this was this was this person's preference.

00:04:25.280 This person goes by Kristen Wood now. Kristen is 66 years old. Six years ago,

00:04:32.460 she was a man. She was living as a biological man. She wasn't transitioned. So six years ago, 0.57

00:04:38.960 it was very clear this person would have had to use the male facility. Now, Kristen Wood says

00:04:43.420 she has transitioned. As recently as December 2021, she definitely had not had sex reassignment

00:04:50.660 surgery on her penis. All right. This her, her penis. I mean, this is the bizarre world in which 0.99

00:04:55.920 we're now living. Um, but now she claims she has stay with me. And she's very, very angry at Rebecca 0.88

00:05:03.860 Phillips. Um, she came out and spoke in to a local publication saying the following here's a stop for

00:05:11.740 people, entire families were coming up to get their picture taken and to introduce me to their

00:05:18.980 children. It's important that they finally get to hear the truth and they finally get to put a face

00:05:24.340 on this scary transgender woman who was misgendered. All right. So that's obviously a biological man. 0.99

00:05:33.480 There's, it wouldn't take much to figure that out as Rebecca Phillips did. So here's the twist of the

00:05:37.940 story. Kristen Wood is defending Kristen Wood's behavior by saying I had sex reassignment surgery. 0.99

00:05:44.460 And where would you have me go? I went to the women's room because I am a woman. It's separate 0.99

00:05:49.380 and apart from California law. I am. And you're a bigot. If you object, well, it's not just Carrie

00:05:55.020 Prejean and Rip Mayer who object. Uh, but they're two of the women who showed up at the meeting, uh, 1.00

00:06:02.340 last night, I think it was city council meeting. That's where Rebecca first, uh, stood up to object. 0.99

00:06:06.880 And here's, you know what? I should play this longer soundbite from Kristen Wood before I let

00:06:13.400 the ladies respond. Here's a longer soundbite by Kristen, uh, in her defense. Okay. Sot one. 0.98

00:06:19.760 On the morning of Thursday, December 12th, my aqua sister, Vicki called to say, Chrissy,

00:06:24.440 I'm so sorry about what happened last night. I replied, what happened? Her answer was only God,

00:06:30.540 you don't know. Do you let me send you the Instagram video. I watch it. And I collapsed in tears.

00:06:35.700 I'm here to spread the light of truth in the face of these inaccuracies. I'm a mom, a grandmom.

00:06:42.420 Now, please look at me. Listen to the sound of my voice. I am a threat to no one. In the year,

00:06:48.200 I've been a member of the Y children have attended summer camp and have been with their parents and

00:06:52.840 grandparents in the women's locker room with me. And there has never, ever been an incident ever.

00:06:58.080 Not until one was manufactured using this forum to do so. I am fully transitioned asking to be

00:07:05.740 confirmed that my doctorate sharps, who is also my gynecologist. I am sorry that this forum was

00:07:11.680 previously used to spread lies and a hateful political agenda. God's bless you all for this

00:07:17.980 opportunity. Christian wants us to believe that Kristen needs a gynecologist. Even if you've had

00:07:24.780 sex transition surgery, you don't have an actual vagina. Okay. You don't have a female reproductive 1.00

00:07:29.160 system. You don't have anywhere near the actual worries of an actual woman when it comes to what 1.00

00:07:34.720 goes on down South in Rio. That's the truth. All right. Looking at three moms here who have had

00:07:39.420 babies in the not too distant past. My last one was nine years ago, but I just like, can we not

00:07:46.020 pretend that a gynecologist is behaving toward Kristen the way a gynecologist actually must to

00:07:51.740 maintain one's medical license? What they do is create a hole. That's what they do. They create

00:07:55.940 a hole in what the area that used to have a penis and they want to clear, just clear that a vagina, 1.00

00:08:01.940 which it isn't. I'm sorry. Okay. Sorry. That's me, but whatever I'm leading. I'm going to give you 0.99

00:08:08.440 the floor in one second. I'm just as a long setup for the story. Carrie Brit, others go to say

00:08:14.800 what the hell's happening here. And they don't accept, uh, Kristen's protestations that Kristen

00:08:21.140 belongs in the female locker room. I'll give you a sampling of what they said. Here's Carrie sought 1.00

00:08:25.380 to. I'm identifying tonight as Christie Lynn Wood. So I have three minutes, a war on women, 1.00

00:08:31.900 children, and the truth, capital T. And the enemy is disguised in high heels, lipstick, 1.00

00:08:37.760 and a shaved beard. Cultural appropriation is wrong. And gender appropriation is wrong. 0.99

00:08:43.040 And I, my job is to protect my children. And that's why I'm here. This is not about equality.

00:08:49.840 This is about complete domination and superiority. We're not going to accept this. There is no such

00:08:57.100 thing as a trans transitioning gender. That is a made up fantasy. It doesn't matter if you chop your 1.00

00:09:02.720 penis off. It doesn't make you a woman. It doesn't make you a woman. It makes you unwell. We want, 1.00

00:09:09.840 we are not going to bow down to your gender ideology cult. So here's what needs to happen tonight.

00:09:16.280 You guys, while you still have your balls, do something about it. We need protection for the 0.90

00:09:21.500 little Rebecca. I get more time. Your time is up. Stop. Stop. The microphone is turned off. Nobody's hearing you.

00:09:33.540 Oh boy. And here's the last piece of it, which is Brit getting up. And by the way, these two have come

00:09:38.580 on the show and they, they, according to what, I don't know if we got this directly or if we heard

00:09:44.320 them responding in written form, they were subjected to such harassment. They had to be escorted out by

00:09:52.220 the sheriff's department because of the place was filled with trans activists who honestly, you should

00:09:56.980 distinguish from trans people because the activists are just in a class, a special class of angry. 0.95

00:10:02.720 Um, not to be confused with the trans community writ large. Yeah. They told us that. Okay. Here's

00:10:07.660 Brit. This radical new reworked language to force everyone to play by the rules of an ideology that

00:10:14.360 is based on feelings rather than biology. And truth is unsustainable and it's dangerous.

00:10:20.960 If everyone can be a woman, then no one is a woman. I pulled up in the vice mayor spot was open. 0.99

00:10:25.420 If I identify as vice mayor and maybe even get it, get a tattoo that says vice mayor and hand out

00:10:31.260 business cards as vice mayor, am I legally vice mayor? And am I allowed now to the table? Can I

00:10:36.600 yell discrimination? If you don't play by my rules, the logical conclusion of policies that are catered

00:10:41.540 to ideologies that are not based in any truth is utter and complete chaos. We are asking you to step in

00:10:48.620 and to put forward an ordinance that will protect women and girls play the hero. We're at the tipping

00:10:54.720 point in society. Hmm. Okay. I'm done. And, uh, I would love to get your thoughts on all of this

00:11:01.520 ladies, uh, Bethany, you were trying to jump in a second ago. I'll start with you. Yeah. So I just 1.00

00:11:06.780 have sort of a technical question. So this person is asserting that they have been fully transitioned

00:11:12.800 medically. If that's the case, then how did a 17 year old girl recognize that this was a biological

00:11:19.100 male? I presume that she wasn't that close to this person's genitalia. So obviously it's obvious enough 0.87

00:11:28.360 from afar, from across the room that there's something there that shouldn't be there when

00:11:34.240 you're a biological woman. So this, this sort of presumption that this is a full transition

00:11:41.580 and this person has a gynecologist. I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call the S on. I, I don't believe 1.00

00:11:48.360 it's true. I know because we know from the earlier reports, cause she's been causing trouble at this 0.82

00:11:53.540 YMCA. Um, she was not transitioned as of December, 2021. So, you know, that's a year plus ago. Doesn't

00:12:01.120 mean it couldn't have happened in the last year, but it would have been awfully recent. And by the way,

00:12:05.500 I don't know if it matters MK, because this girl never claimed she saw male genitalia. She said,

00:12:13.280 I saw a naked male. I think I would recognize that Kristen wasn't, was a male was a biological male.

00:12:21.040 If I saw Kristen from behind as well. Yeah. Well, so your question earlier was,

00:12:27.380 do we have to pretend about the gynecologist? And the answer is yes, we are. The demand is that we 0.95

00:12:32.860 pretend. Uh, and the demand is that you do not object in any way, shape or form. And that is not

00:12:39.700 something that is acceptable to me. This young woman is a minor who was in this setting, saw something

00:12:46.140 that made her uncomfortable and made her wonder about the safety of this locker room. She is allowed

00:12:51.100 to have those concerns. It is crazy town to tell her she's not allowed to. And the way this is being

00:12:57.940 covered is just insane. Uh, there's a headline, I believe it was daily beast that called it her

00:13:02.880 gym freak out, a 17 year old gym freak out. It's like, well, maybe we should respect the fact that 0.98

00:13:08.860 she's a little concerned about this and that 17 year old girls maybe should be protected in some way, 0.99

00:13:14.960 uh, and should listen to their guts on things like this. Another, uh, PBS headline out of San Diego

00:13:19.980 protests over use of Santee YMCA locker room by trans woman, part of a troubling national trend.

00:13:26.660 Is that the national trend where we care what our daughters are exposed to in locker rooms? Like I,

00:13:32.300 I have three daughters. I would like them to be able to use their spidey sense to understand when

00:13:38.660 something might be making them uncomfortable and not be ashamed to say it. And what this is,

00:13:43.280 is a national trend toward making them ashamed that they are uncomfortable and that is dangerous for

00:13:49.600 them. That's exactly right. And, and she was called a bigot. Um, we've seen it over and over again,

00:13:55.780 where anybody who raises an objection to this is called a bigot. And the, the insufferable piece

00:14:01.060 of it, Bethany is the people really calling women like Carrie and Brit and this young girl, Rebecca

00:14:08.380 and me and possibly you two, as a result of this segment, bigots are biological men. So they could

00:14:14.840 take a seat because I don't want to be lectured to by a biological man about how I need to be quiet

00:14:20.800 about them entering my child's all female space, right? That's exactly my role is to speak up for 0.99

00:14:27.800 her. And in Rebecca's case, to try to find the voice to speak up for herself. Yeah. At our local

00:14:33.700 community center where we do some classes, my seven year old son isn't allowed into the locker room

00:14:38.580 anymore with me. And we have to go get changed in the family locker room because men aren't allowed, 1.00

00:14:44.140 but at the same time, an adult male would be allowed into that locker room. But my seven year

00:14:49.880 old male child wouldn't, unless I start calling him, I don't know, whatever. I can't think of a

00:14:55.800 female name, but if I start calling him a girl, then all of a sudden I can let him into that room.

00:15:01.180 But sort of touching back on what Mary Catherine just said, what's really troubling to me is the safety

00:15:06.480 aspect and that we're teaching young girls to ignore that spider sense. Yep. And there's,

00:15:11.800 there's so much of the female experience that these trans men who claim to be women will never 1.00

00:15:17.880 understand. But one of the most sort of traumatic moments in that transition, when you go from a

00:15:24.540 young, young girl to a woman is when you start fearing for your physical safety. And that's not 0.79

00:15:30.480 an experience that they have ever had. Um, when it comes to sexuality, they've never had to sort of

00:15:36.480 look behind them with their keys in their hand and the panic and the finger on the panic button on their

00:15:41.100 key chain because they're scared of who's walking behind them. And while there is a fear of physical

00:15:46.860 violence, the fear of sexual violence is something that is unique to the female experience. And we are

00:15:52.540 teaching young girls that they have to ignore the spider sense that has kept every woman safe since

00:15:57.860 the beginning of time. We have that spider sense because men can be predators. And this idea that if a,

00:16:04.940 if a man calls himself a woman, then there's no way that he could ever be predatory is absolutely

00:16:10.700 absurd because men will do literally anything to take advantage of a woman, to see a woman naked,

00:16:17.380 except, except this one thing, they would never lie about their gender. That's something that's

00:16:21.800 beyond the pale. They would, however, rape and kill a woman, but they would never lie about their gender. 1.00

00:16:27.180 Right. This, this is such a good point. My God. And it's like you, we had Debra. So on here, um, 1.00

00:16:33.300 just last week, she was responding to a viewer who had called in concerned that her 23 year old is,

00:16:38.300 is seeming to think she's, uh, the opposite gender. And, um, Debra. So is saying this story

00:16:44.160 really disturbs her because again, we don't know if the male genitalia was still intact or not,

00:16:48.520 but she was saying transgender women, you know, biological men who want to live as women, 0.99

00:16:53.680 they don't, they don't run around with their penises out. They'd be horrified to walk around 1.00

00:16:58.880 naked. They don't really love having the penis. They really want to lean into the female role. 1.00

00:17:03.580 And so if you see that it's actually a serious red flag. So again, we don't know what the truth

00:17:10.380 is here. I have no idea, but the point is there is reason to be concerned. And even if it has happened

00:17:17.320 in this particular case, it's a bigger issue because there will be men who take advantage of this law

00:17:23.020 and what we're doing is not allowing for that at all. Mary Catherine. Well, yeah. And the problem

00:17:29.200 is, look, I am a person who wants to have like maximal freedom for as many people as possible.

00:17:35.300 Right. And to, to make sure that we can live together in harmony, right. Uh, more libertarian

00:17:39.780 leaning. However, like there has to be a compromise position here because a locker room is a special

00:17:46.620 place. These all may all females faces are important to women. And then you have the issue 0.74

00:17:52.920 of when the standard is subjective, how do you deal with the idea that someone could be not well-meaning

00:18:00.340 guys. And in fact, it has happened. I believe there's a spa in LA where someone got in trouble,

00:18:04.540 um, over something like this, where a trans woman was in the, uh, hot tub, I believe, uh, with young

00:18:11.600 people. And this is something that can be obviously dangerous to young women and to minors in general.

00:18:19.160 And we're just sort of not allowed to object to it or point it out. And that is not a compromised

00:18:25.180 position that protects my freedom or the freedom of my kids. Yeah. It's, it's a question of what's,

00:18:31.940 what's takes precedence, the physical safety of young girls and not just young girls. I'd like to be

00:18:38.320 physically safe too, but the physical safety or the emotional wellbeing of people who, who call

00:18:45.520 themselves transgender. And I'm sorry, I will take physical wellbeing over emotional satisfaction any 0.97

00:18:52.680 day of the week. And, and we are all supposed to swallow our, our physical needs to not see a penis, 0.99

00:19:00.820 not encounter a penis, all of those that we're supposed to just ignore those feelings and that safety 0.98

00:19:07.980 aspect because people might have their feelings hurt. And I don't care. Why, why is it making my 0.98

00:19:14.220 blood boil that Kristen claims to have a gynecologist? I, I really like it's making my 1.00

00:19:20.780 blood boil and I it's, I'm having like a real reaction to it in a way I actually didn't expect

00:19:24.920 and I'm thinking it through live. And part of it is I just actually went to the gynecologist.

00:19:31.080 Actual women have to go to the gynecologist once a year. When you just delivered a baby, 1.00

00:19:34.480 you spend your life in with your gynecologist, your OBGYN. And it's never particularly pleasant 1.00

00:19:40.980 to go see the gynecologist. The exam doesn't feel particularly good. The pap smear is very

00:19:46.260 uncomfortable. No one looks forward to that. We actually have things we need to worry about like

00:19:50.440 ovarian cancer or other kinds of cancers that you can get in the OB field. Um, you, you have to

00:19:57.300 get a breast exam. You're constantly worrying whether they're going to find a lump and how that could go.

00:20:01.680 There are things that are particular to that exam and that relationship that no fucking man is ever 0.99

00:20:05.860 going to have. All right. So that guy doesn't have a gynecologist. That guy has a hole that a surgeon 0.99

00:20:11.400 created at best. I'm sorry. It's like infuriating to me because there are things that make women 1.00

00:20:17.380 special and there are things that we've overcome and that we must overcome as women in order to thrive

00:20:23.580 in them in this life, whether it's the threat of sexual violence or, you know, being attacked as we

00:20:27.820 walk home from college bars to our dorms or the, the fears that you have when you go to the gynecologist

00:20:35.140 or when you are pregnant with a baby, all those things they're baked in. And it's part of what

00:20:40.280 makes women so incredible and strong. And you can't just become one and take all of our things 1.00

00:20:45.160 because you did or did not have a surgery or you put on a dress. It's, it doesn't work like that.

00:20:50.200 My, my favorite thing is when people say we're pregnant, when men say it, we're pregnant,

00:20:56.920 we're expecting a baby. We had a baby. No, no, no. There's no we involved here. The woman,

00:21:03.580 the mother is the one that's throwing up for nine months. She's the one that is having heartburn,

00:21:09.840 like come out of her nose. And then she gets to experience the joy of pushing a watermelon out of

00:21:16.080 something the size of a lemon. It is awful. Very clear memories. It was too recent, very, very clear.

00:21:25.580 Those memory had a baby this month. Yeah. Mary Catherine, not Mary, Megan Kelly, you had a baby

00:21:33.140 nine years ago and yet it's still vivid. It never goes away. And this idea that men can do all of

00:21:40.140 these things, it's, it makes me equally enraged when we talk about birthing persons, because what it does 0.96

00:21:45.920 is it breaks us down as women into vessels. That's the handmaid's tale stuff. When they take 1.00

00:21:53.440 away everything that is unique and powerful for women and my God, men, society would never have

00:22:00.160 survived. Humanity would not exist if men had to be pregnant. They take all of that away from women. 1.00

00:22:05.920 And then they try to, to take it on and say, you know, we are birthing persons. Men can be pregnant

00:22:12.800 too. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's, that's a joy that is only for us. And it comes with bragging

00:22:18.780 rights. Well, yeah, I'm at, I'm at a point in my life where I'm keenly aware of all that's going on

00:22:24.700 in that, uh, in those special ways. And I just delivered a baby three weeks ago and it is really

00:22:31.580 special. And I'm with you, Megan, that I don't want my stuff taken from me. And I believe that there

00:22:36.520 are ways to appropriately and politely deal with all people without just sort of abrogating all of

00:22:44.320 the language that we use to deal with us, because I think that is offensive. And there are, it is

00:22:49.720 amazing to me that so many feminists who will, they will stipulate that women are special in these ways 0.97

00:22:57.140 and they face special threats and that they, that all these things are true while also contending that

00:23:02.220 we're not allowed to worry about this at all or the appropriation. Yes. The appropriation of the

00:23:08.380 special things about us. Um, we're not allowed to object to that. Those two things don't go together.

00:23:13.480 We are special for these reasons. And you see it when you, you know, when you look at your husband

00:23:20.060 too, it's like, we, I don't just like not to get too poetic about it, but it's like, you see that

00:23:26.540 beautiful male bicep, you know, that great shoulder that the guy gets and that sort of V

00:23:31.760 ideally shape from the torso down to the waist. And like those firm bottoms that we'll never have,

00:23:38.180 no matter how much time we spend. I'm just going to play this for my husband and tell him you were

00:23:40.900 talking about him. I'm just saying their natural instinct to protect us, like their chivalry,

00:23:47.660 their, the way they, you know, seeing a man show his tenderness toward a baby in a way that's

00:23:52.340 different than the mom does. And you know how the mom tries to sort of make excuses for a little 1.00

00:23:56.720 junior, but the dad tries to shore him up to get tougher. All those things are so beautiful and

00:24:01.480 they're meaningful. They they're there because of thousands of years of evolution and the way we,

00:24:06.960 we used to have to live in the way we do now. And they cannot be dismissed as a nothing because you

00:24:12.520 went to see a surgeon. I it's God. And, and to turn. Yeah, go ahead.

00:24:18.980 And I mean, that's just something that I think that a lot of trans activists ignore the biological

00:24:24.180 evolutionary aspect of all of this, all of these things exist for evolutionary reasons. And these

00:24:30.080 are the folks that have the, have the thing on their front lawn in this house, we believe in science,

00:24:34.900 except for biology and evolution. Yeah, that's true. And, and to turn the page, literally this is

00:24:42.080 continuing. Like it's not just for Rebecca, who's being dismissed as a bigot or not to mention

00:24:47.160 Carrie and Brit. This woman just got fired for liking a JK Rowling tweet. Okay. So she's, 0.96

00:24:56.540 her name is Kara Lynn. She gave an interview to national review. Uh, I think there's a national

00:25:03.760 review or daily mail. Yeah. National review. And she worked for a gaming company, limited run games,

00:25:10.620 which you wouldn't think is like the most progressive far left woke company. I don't know.

00:25:15.460 It's like, I would think they cater to young guys for the most part, but in any event, she was a

00:25:21.420 community manager, which I think meant she did press for them, uh, for limited run games. She worked

00:25:26.560 for there for more than two years and she just got fired because she enjoyed Harry Potter and followed

00:25:34.300 some politically disfavored accounts on Twitter. Again, reading, uh, from national review. She,

00:25:40.620 the first domino fell, she told national review when a friend of hers, an influencer for Twitch

00:25:46.320 and other streaming platform asked his followers for their thoughts on the new Harry Potter themed

00:25:52.200 game, Hogwarts legacy. She, Carolyn made the response, the mistake of responding.

00:25:59.440 I'm personally looking forward to it. The more I see gameplay, the more excited I get. It's hitting

00:26:04.720 all the marks I've been wanting for a Harry Potter game. Well, that's fireable. Like obviously

00:26:11.720 I'll be. So then this activist, uh, who goes by the, by the name purple tinker on Twitter. Um,

00:26:23.060 according to the Washington post, the person behind that name is Jessica blank. Who's actually a

00:26:28.560 biological man going as a transgender woman and the founder of Bronnie con an annual convention for

00:26:35.540 adult fans of my little pony. Yeah. Yeah. These are sick. No, no danger signs there, by the way,

00:26:44.880 there, I have a friend, no red flags convention. And he called, he like group texted all of us.

00:26:50.720 As soon as he walked in, he's like, Holy shit. There's a, my little pony convention here. It's all 0.98

00:26:55.580 freakish men attending. It gets, they get off on it. They get off on little girls. Okay. My little

00:27:01.840 pony dolls. Okay. So this is Jessica who's behind the attempt to take down Carolyn and Jessica decided

00:27:09.560 to go look through Carolyn's old tweets and found that she follows people like libs of Tik TOK in

00:27:18.580 miles. Chong yet. Same by the way. And, uh, exposed that she at one point had tweeted out something to

00:27:25.780 the effect of, um, Oh, seven year old tweet criticizing transgender inclusive bathroom

00:27:29.800 legislation and called her a bigot, blah, blah, blah. The company caved. She's fired because of this. 0.97

00:27:36.260 And they're not even trying to pretend it was for any reason other than this campaign against her.

00:27:42.040 Did they put out a statement that was like, we respect other people's views. However,

00:27:47.500 we just fired her for liking tweets. Cause that, that usually comes right after the cancellation. 1.00

00:27:53.100 Yes. Here's what they said. Here's my notes from what they said. I don't know if you can read this,

00:27:57.520 but I wrote F you. I, my potty mouth, my mom told me to stop swearing so much. So did Deseret

00:28:03.240 news, Bethany, but I, it's hard. Um, sorry. Okay. I know I need to do it, but I, it's really hard.

00:28:10.620 It's hard. It's so hard, especially when you're from New York. I feel your pain. Right. It's in

00:28:15.500 our blood. It's in our blood. It's like in the bagels. Um, what's really crazy. Wait, well, let me

00:28:25.520 read their statement. They said limited run games respects all personal opinions. Yes. You called it

00:28:31.320 exactly. Mary Catherine. Yeah. However, we remain committed to supporting an inclusive culture

00:28:37.640 upon investigating a situation. An employee was terminated. That's it. Upon investigating a

00:28:42.840 situation and employee was terminated passive, passive voice. Our goal as a company is to

00:28:48.580 continue to foster a positive way for it and safe environment for everyone. Go ahead. Cause it is

00:28:56.340 indeed dangerous when someone likes a tweet and they work at your office, probably remotely,

00:29:01.660 by the way, it's super dangerous. Right. What were you going to say, Bethany?

00:29:07.300 So I just think it's really funny that they once again have thrown a woman under the bus

00:29:12.380 in order to cater to the feelings of a biological male. That's, that's the theme for all of these

00:29:17.080 things. Women are thrown under the bus to cater to the feelings of biological. 1.00

00:29:21.160 Right. Right. Right. Back to the original theme. And I guess, um, this person, Jessica blank,

00:29:26.740 AKA purple tinker, AKA founder of brawny con an annual convention for adult fans of my little pony

00:29:32.740 has made the point that it's been a long time since they have held a my little pony convention or

00:29:40.900 went to one, which I have news for you is really no defense, Jessica to the fact that you found it and

00:29:48.940 used to love that stuff as recently as I guess, a few years ago. Um, these companies need to stand

00:29:54.540 up. Yes. They need to stand up. This cannot keep happening or it's the end of our society.

00:30:01.420 Yeah. No, the, the, the words, your concerns are noted are a lost art. Like, like, let's just

00:30:09.360 enact that. Like you can, you can tell someone, I hear what you're saying. We will not be making

00:30:14.760 this person pay consequences for disagreeing with you. Now the left will say, this isn't cancel

00:30:19.700 culture. This is consequences, culture consequences for liking tweets, for following people whom

00:30:25.080 other people disagree with. I follow a lot of people that I disagree with and people might find

00:30:30.080 objectionable and I am allowed to look at their thoughts. That is, that is not a thing that is a

00:30:36.040 fireable offense. It's me too. Me too. I followed Nicole, Nicole, Hannah Jones, and she and I have had

00:30:42.900 some dust ups and so on that I want to hear what she has to say. I think she's interesting. I don't

00:30:47.180 agree with her, but she's interesting. Um, it's absurd to be doing this kind of thing and it's,

00:30:52.940 it's branching out out up next. I'm going to take a quick break and we're going to talk about

00:30:56.860 what's happening. Um, it's John O Caldwell at Fox news who just got thrown out of a restaurant

00:31:04.820 for openly expressing his conservative views. This is a crazy story. That's next. Don't go away.

00:31:12.900 This is crazy to me. Gianno Caldwell, uh, who is, he works for Fox news. You guys may know him,

00:31:20.320 uh, was down in North Miami. So it's Florida and like Florida, that's supposed to be like

00:31:26.060 where you can say things that you want to say, not get canceled. Um, he went into the pair. I,

00:31:33.180 is it paradise? It's spelled without the E at the end. I think paradise parody. Okay. I mean,

00:31:39.460 it's French, um, books and bread, paradis books and bread. They kicked him out of the restaurant.

00:31:46.520 Okay. As he told the story to Fox and friends and daily wire reporting on it, kicked him out

00:31:49.920 of the restaurant, claiming the behavior and words of the group he was with. And I think of

00:31:55.600 Caldwell as well made the employees and other patrons in the space quote, very uncomfortable.

00:32:01.560 Okay. Now for the, for the listening audience, if it matters, Gianno's black, but that would not save 1.00

00:32:07.980 him with these woke warriors down at the, at this book and bread store. What, what, um, he told Fox

00:32:15.360 and friends, the story saying one of the owners came over to their table as they were eating breakfast

00:32:21.500 and told them she'd been listening to their conversation, a creepy, and that they were not

00:32:26.800 welcome. He, uh, asked if he had said something triggering to her to which she responded. No,

00:32:33.160 but said their politics are not aligned and asked him to leave because she did not feel comfortable.

00:32:39.040 He was there with a few people. This is a white woman. He said, um, he said the group had discussed

00:32:44.880 several topics, including Caldwell's time working at Fox news, his values, violent crime and progressive

00:32:51.420 district attorneys. Keep in mind that general's brother was shot and killed in Chicago, um, last

00:32:57.520 year. So he's got a lot of thoughts on these soft on crime DAs. And apparently he was discussing them

00:33:01.740 and, uh, this person comes over and tells him get out and she's not denying it. She responded on

00:33:10.080 Instagram saying, um, that she found him offensive. She said, uh, I don't want to get to it. Once it was

00:33:17.820 clear that they were finished with their meal, we told them that our views do not align and that the

00:33:22.280 language they were using was unwelcome in our space. And, uh, she claims that they were talking

00:33:27.980 about women in degrading ways, as well as using eugenic arguments around their thoughts on Roe versus 0.87

00:33:34.620 Wade. You know what? It's none of her business, what they were discussing. This is so crazy. Now,

00:33:40.800 even speaking conservative thoughts in a restaurant or bookstore unclear can get you booted out of a

00:33:49.760 public space. What do you make of it? Well, just a review quickly, uh, of things that are dangerous

00:33:54.980 people having conversations, uh, people who like tweets, uh, a person in a locker room that you have

00:34:02.140 concerns about. No, no chance that could be an issue, but the tweeting and the talking huge issues.

00:34:08.120 Yes. Good point. It's going on a very slippery slope.

00:34:14.580 What's interesting is the feelings of one side have take precedence here. So the feelings of this

00:34:21.940 white woman, those have more weight than that of a black man who has experienced the effects of 1.00

00:34:29.760 violent crime. If we're going to talk about eugenics and all of those things related to Roe versus 0.93

00:34:36.160 Wade, I feel like a black man's opinion. When you, when you look at the fact that I think it's 85 to

00:34:43.840 90% of black babies in New York city where he lives are aborted, I feel like that should carry some weight, 1.00

00:34:50.420 but not really because he works for Fox news. Yeah. It's a good point. Why, why isn't he entitled

00:34:56.540 to talk about that? Why? And it's, it's not, it's like someone in our facility found your views

00:35:03.200 offensive. She says our political views don't align. So get out. I mean, is this the future?

00:35:09.200 You know, there was a story like some bank was talking about don't come here. If your values

00:35:14.900 aren't aligned with our, like, is this the future where we're just going to have two systems for

00:35:19.640 everyone? We're gonna have two different restaurants, two different banks, two different

00:35:23.680 real estate brokers. Like you, you know, for the left and the right, for the red and the blue.

00:35:27.580 I'm, I'm afraid it is. I hope it's not. I've written about this a lot of times. Uh, it is an

00:35:34.740 unhealthy way of being in a society, even if you have the right to refuse service, which many people

00:35:41.080 do. Right. But like the idea that you need to check your bagel places politics before you go in and grab

00:35:48.600 a sandwich is not a healthy way to operate in society. And if you're the one who insists that

00:35:54.700 your customers align with you on all politics, you are being a giant baby and intolerant.

00:36:00.420 So what I want to know is filing these lawsuits over and over against the cake baker and this other

00:36:07.800 woman whose cases that they have to provide service, they have to, and they've been defending 1.00

00:36:12.880 themselves saying we don't, not if it's compelled speech and they've been winning, but now you've got

00:36:18.020 the left saying, I don't have to provide service to you, even though I'm a public business, I can

00:36:24.240 make you get out. I was compelled to hear your speech. That's not real.

00:36:26.760 Right. Right. Like the, there could be a lawsuit brewing here, Bethany. 0.71

00:36:31.660 I, I think it's worth a visit from lots of folks to sit there and talk about Roe versus Wade. Um,

00:36:38.200 what I want to know is, did he get a free mail out of this? She says that she waited until after his

00:36:43.200 meal was over. Was that after he paid the check too? And then he was asked to leave. Cause if I can get a

00:36:49.440 free meal in North Miami beach for just talking about how I don't think that black babies should 1.00

00:36:55.740 be aborted on mass. And that I, I think that that has sort of eugenics undertones. I am all in favor 1.00

00:37:03.800 of getting a free meal while also talking about my political beliefs in a way that makes someone

00:37:09.520 feel uncomfortable.

00:37:12.000 Bethany and I could get kicked out of so many restaurants by this standard.

00:37:15.580 We're just everywhere we go. As long as we get kicked out after we eat before the check

00:37:21.900 house, at least the free bread. Why don't we just pull our funds and create right next to this store

00:37:28.940 paradise books and bread where you can say whatever the hell you want. We welcome lefties. We welcome

00:37:35.780 righties. We welcome the crazy libertarians. We have one as an owner apparently. And, uh, and, 1.00

00:37:42.020 and see how we do next to old paradis book and bread. I don't, this is, this cannot be our future.

00:37:48.500 We have to shame these people and call them out of this bad behavior. I will say now, um, on Sunday,

00:37:55.000 he went on Fox and friends this weekend. The business was closed and on Instagram, they posted that they

00:37:59.960 were starting their winter break early instead of when it was supposed to start on January 29th.

00:38:06.020 They've now made their Instagram account private. So you can no longer see their posts. Um, but the

00:38:12.240 owners had apparently bragged before that in their facility, you would see their enviable library of

00:38:18.680 politically charged books. So you see political views are very welcome just so long as they don't

00:38:25.800 promote Harry Potter or biological women and their spaces and so on. I mean, we could go on.

00:38:31.700 And by the way, I could sit next to books that think different things than I think. I know it's

00:38:36.620 like a superpower, but I can eat lunch next to people and books that profess things I don't agree

00:38:42.700 with. You might be doing it right now. Look at both of you. I have, you can check. I don't know

00:38:46.640 that what's back there. I didn't check them all out. We snuck some books back there about end of

00:38:52.060 discussion about how the left is shutting down speech available on Amazon. Mary Catherine Ham,

00:38:59.240 guy Benson, 2015 memory serves. That's correct. That's correct. I know I was about to say,

00:39:05.540 I was like, you have to rewrite that book to refresh it. You and guy have to get in,

00:39:11.240 get in with all of the craziness. You, you were a little too soon on the jump. You predicted how

00:39:16.900 crazy things were going to get, but then you missed all the best content. You may have,

00:39:20.800 but as we say for the book, it's great for the book, bad for America.

00:39:23.460 Yes. Okay. Now speaking of guy Benson, he is one of our favorite people. You and I were both at his

00:39:29.860 wedding. You were in his wedding. MK. Um, he is a gay conservative. Uh, I only mentioned his

00:39:36.060 sexual identity because it's potentially relevant to my next point. Um, people like guy, people like

00:39:43.360 Dave Rubin, they, they don't run around talking about who they like to have sex with, who they love,

00:39:49.400 what their preferences are any more than you or I do. They, they don't, um, we bring it up because

00:39:54.740 gay rights have been an issue over these many years. However, I don't think guy Benson or Dave

00:40:01.280 Rubin or any of these, I don't think they're going to be in favor of things like the latest Burberry

00:40:05.240 ad Burberry has now decided that they're going to do a new ad campaign. And it's not just showing a

00:40:13.720 same sex couple kissing it's showing, which, I mean, I think we're kind of used to at this point,

00:40:19.500 I don't know if they're trying to be provocative or something like that, but they're showing

00:40:23.000 a woman, a biological woman who's had a double mastectomy. Yeah, here it is. Uh, this, this person

00:40:32.800 on the left is a biological woman who said a double mastectomy and is living as a man kissing another 0.75

00:40:37.580 man. How is this selling Burberry? How is this? This is where I genuinely believe the LGBTQIA whole

00:40:46.460 thing has separated like this. I don't see how this is healthy for society to see a woman who's 1.00

00:40:52.080 cut her breasts off kissing another person in an ad to sell a weather company's gear. Like help me, 0.76

00:40:59.040 MK. No, I think luxury brands in particular, as we noticed with the, uh, the, the, the last

00:41:05.720 controversial one, which is escaping my mind. Cause I had a baby too recently. Yes. Uh, they are

00:41:12.580 just uniformly populated with people who believe one thing. And it is the farthest left thing.

00:41:18.360 One can believe on all of the, on all of the issues, partly because, you know, if they liked

00:41:23.120 any other tweets or listened to any of them or followed them, uh, they'd get fired. Right. So you

00:41:27.180 have, I think this distortion of what might play with people. And I think there is an attempt to be

00:41:32.860 provocative. I'm not that provoked because we see a lot of this content because the entire media is

00:41:37.780 aligned with this point of view, but like, how are you selling the raincoats? Yeah. Where are the

00:41:43.320 clothes in this Burberry ad? I don't, I find this upsetting because I don't want it marketed on a mass

00:41:49.540 basis, uh, that little girls can just chop, chop off their breasts. Go ahead and chop off your 1.00

00:41:54.140 breasts. There's absolutely no downside. Have you ever known somebody who's had a double mastectomy? 1.00

00:41:57.900 Um, it can be extremely painful and it can cause ongoing medical problems for a long, long time.

00:42:03.500 Um, and like to just pop it up there, like, Hey, there's nothing wrong. See those scars right

00:42:07.280 there. Yeah. It's beautiful. Bring it. It's an, it ain't but a thing just buy a Burberry raincoat to

00:42:12.240 cover it up. Like, what are they trying to say, Bethany? Yeah, that's something that has always sort

00:42:17.360 of bothered me about all of this trans activism is the no consequences messaging behind all of it.

00:42:23.360 No consequences of hormones, no consequences of the, the physical maiming that takes place with

00:42:29.940 all of these surgeries. And I find that as someone who is very nervous about how society is going when

00:42:37.120 it comes to gender messaging, um, the, I mean, there's so many components of it, but the, the no 0.97

00:42:44.700 consequences thing is something that really bothers me because we're telling young girls and, and this is a

00:42:51.080 social contagion really among young girls. It's not really happening among men in the nearly the same

00:42:55.700 numbers that it's happening among young women. And we're lying to them about the physical, physical 0.98

00:43:01.280 consequences. Uh, they are terrifying. These young women are left usually infertile. Um, they can't 1.00

00:43:08.880 breastfeed. Uh, they're making all of these life altering, physically altering decisions that are 1.00

00:43:16.180 permanent with the belief that they are not permanent, that they, they, everything can be

00:43:21.580 reversed. And you're right, Megan, that they're showing these scars as something that's beautiful.

00:43:27.640 When the reality is I have a friend who just underwent a double mastectomy because she tested 0.78

00:43:32.560 positive for the breast cancer gene. And she just went in for her fourth surgery. And the most sort of

00:43:39.060 troubling stories from people who have detransitioned are about the physical ramifications of everything

00:43:46.240 that they had to undergo. And before they've even tried to reverse it, it it's, it's real physical

00:43:52.120 maiming. And it's at the hands of people who claim that they, they at first and foremost, do no harm.

00:43:59.720 Yeah, that's exactly right. I, it's really disturbing to me. I, I'm interested in this story as well,

00:44:05.800 because honestly, I feel like the people who sort of speak for the trans community and, and to a

00:44:12.280 lesser extent, uh, the lay, the, the lesbian, lesbian and gay community, um, are not always the

00:44:17.780 best spokespeople. And so they do things like the queer prom. Have you seen this from the libs of 1.00

00:44:22.000 TikTok account? They're celebrating the queer, queer prom. I actually have no problem with that. 0.83

00:44:25.660 Like if maybe if you're gay and you don't know who else is gay, you'd love the queer prom because it 0.98

00:44:29.560 might help you. I don't know, but why do they have to sexualize it? Why do they have to treat 1.00

00:44:33.740 young gay men and young lesbian women as though they're sex fiends at all times? Like somehow 0.99

00:44:38.380 it turns on at 14 for a young lesbian in a way it doesn't for a young straight girl. It's ridiculous. 1.00

00:44:43.560 So here's from libs of TikTok, the, the, what they're talking about when they're advertising 0.97

00:44:46.720 this queer prom. It's not 12. 0.96

00:44:48.220 They're so great. Everyone's going to get a crystal, uh, star shaped pendant and a little

00:45:09.240 charm in there, a progress pride flag, a Planned Parenthood bracelet, amazing stuff from

00:45:18.080 our friends at NAMI, condoms, lube, dental dam, latex dam. Thank you. Evolution candy. Oh my gosh,

00:45:26.600 Carter. Hi, I see you there. Uh, and cute little cards with information.

00:45:34.920 All right. This is Pennsylvania happened in October. Kids as young as 13. You tell me why

00:45:40.020 they're offering dental dams and lube to 13 year olds who are just there to, you know,

00:45:44.840 maybe meet somebody or make a connection. Like I don't help. This is a hypersexualization

00:45:51.280 of an entire generation. I mean, this is, this is everything that they want to do. It's not just

00:45:57.200 about gay rights and, and all of these things and being free. It's also about sexualizing children. 0.99

00:46:04.240 It's what it all comes down to. I, you know, it's so aggravating. I'm okay. I always tell my kids what 0.89

00:46:09.440 my mom told me, no, if you're gay or lesbian, don't worry about it. Mommy loves you. But I, 0.78

00:46:13.760 I don't, I wouldn't send them to a queer prom if they were going to be offering them dental dams at 1.00

00:46:17.760 age 13. We, we have out couples at our regular prom. And is this a school sponsored event, by the way,

00:46:26.000 that that's what talks about. Yeah. Good question. Um, I don't know. I know that they,

00:46:33.000 there was a state Senator who was a sponsor of it, uh, state Senator, Steve Santar Ciero. Um,

00:46:39.980 and they held it at the cosmic colors, queer prom. It was called at the, I don't know,

00:46:44.020 in Doylestown, Pennsylvania. And even, I really think we need to get over this kids who are gay 1.00

00:46:49.040 or lesbian. They don't need to see a drag queen. They don't need to be offered condoms at age 13 0.96

00:46:53.160 or any, or lube. This is insulting, right? There are a lot of Christian families that also have gays and 0.99

00:46:59.120 lesbians who wouldn't support or premarital sex like that anyway, but can get behind gays, 1.00

00:47:02.940 lesbians like the Pope just did in any event. Um, more for another day. There's so much, 0.98

00:47:08.040 we have 25 other stories on this sadly that we could get to, but, uh, we have to move on Bethany,

00:47:12.860 Mary Catherine. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Thanks. Love ladies. When we come back

00:47:17.980 China. Now we switch gears to focus on China, major protests against China's zero COVID policies broke

00:47:28.640 out late last year. And they're still ongoing as Chinese health authorities have relented a bit

00:47:34.720 on the zero COVID, but now claim that a staggering eight in 10 people have contracted COVID since they

00:47:41.600 lifted those restrictions. Thanks to the protesters as of December, right? This is why they say it all

00:47:47.260 happened just since then. Although no one outside of China can verify these numbers here to discuss it.

00:47:52.960 All our two new guests, Winston Sturzel and Matthew Tai. They both lived in China for a decade and

00:47:59.920 they're now popular YouTubers covering all things, China. Winston, Matt, welcome to the show.

00:48:05.240 Thank you so much. It's a pleasure. Yeah. Great to have you. So this is an,

00:48:08.760 this is an amazing story. So, uh, Winston, you were from South Africa, Matt, you're American,

00:48:14.640 right? Yeah. Upstate New York. Yeah. Like me where Binghamton. Oh yeah. Right around the corner.

00:48:20.640 So, um, Syracuse and then Albany for me, but so what, I mean, I don't understand because people

00:48:26.460 from upstate New York, New York normally have sense and they appreciate the natural topography

00:48:33.920 and the beautiful, you know, sort of outdoors. Well, I don't, what would make you move to China

00:48:37.820 and stay there? Honestly, it was, uh, you know, it was a little bit bored coming out of college.

00:48:42.780 Um, I had just backpacked through Europe, uh, seen the world and I didn't want that,

00:48:46.800 you know, adventure to stop, um, to make it quick. I was planning on doing like a,

00:48:51.560 maybe a year abroad, teach, teach a little bit of English, maybe in Japan or Taiwan,

00:48:55.500 someplace like that. And, uh, ended up getting a call from a job prospector in mainland China,

00:49:01.200 sold all my stuff and said, you know what, I'll give China a shot. 1.00

00:49:04.920 Hmm. Okay. Now, uh, Winston, what are, what are we looking at behind you guys in front of a green

00:49:09.060 screen and I'm seeing, it looks like people are like stomping on you on the sidewalk. What's

00:49:12.600 happening? Oh yeah. Sorry. We actually, before leaving China, I used to go out very often and

00:49:18.420 just take, um, footage of the street, really set up a tripod and stand there for about 10,

00:49:25.240 15 minutes at a time. After leaving China, um, I actually got some of our contacts there to do

00:49:31.420 the same thing. So every once in a while, go out and film and, uh, you know, send us the footage.

00:49:36.660 This is actually a government building in Beijing. And, um, it's just, uh, a random clip of from a

00:49:43.900 couple of months ago, actually. The Chinese government's not super keen on, uh, on that.

00:49:48.280 Yeah. Ah, it looks so drab and depressing. I mean, can you just walk us through, I've never been to

00:49:53.140 China. Um, what was it? Cause Winston, you had a similar story where you moved over there to take

00:49:58.680 a teaching opportunity, as I understand, and decided you would stay. Like, what was it about China that

00:50:03.720 made you stay? Cause I will be honest. Most of the stories in America about China are not good.

00:50:08.780 And you don't normally have somebody saying, here's, here's the beautiful part. Here's the

00:50:12.200 stuff that I found alluring. Well, I mean, it was very straightforward. When I went to China,

00:50:17.500 I went on a business trip. Um, I was 25 years old at the time. And I went, I went on a three day

00:50:22.840 business trip to go and take a look at some factories and some products that my client was

00:50:26.660 importing to South Africa for, um, security camera technology that he was buying from there.

00:50:31.440 And, uh, I ended up in Shenzhen, which I know a lot of people don't really know Shenzhen,

00:50:36.880 but it's probably the most important city in China. It's the first city to open up when it comes to

00:50:42.460 trade and investment and that kind of thing back in 1979. And, um, it was such a mind blowing

00:50:50.540 experience to me, those three days, just vibrant. And, um, the amount of people will blow your mind.

00:50:57.980 It's just so many people, so many things happening at the same time, all night, you could go out and,

00:51:03.820 uh, the lights are on and people are having street side barbecue. And it was just such an amazing

00:51:09.660 vibe for a young man. Uh, and it really attracted me this whole, um, in, in Chinese, they say,

00:51:16.540 which just means very sort of, uh, bustling and, and, and happening. So it was, it was that that

00:51:22.380 attracted me to China. So I went home and I sold everything. And I went back to China with this

00:51:27.740 idea that I would find work and I'd be able to make a life there because it looked like such an

00:51:33.160 adventure. But when I got there, I figured out very quickly that, uh, China is a very difficult

00:51:38.540 place to navigate. And I ended up actually losing all my money in it. I actually ended up homeless for

00:51:44.600 a number of days in China for what ended up being about three days until I found, uh, an agent that

00:51:51.420 got me a teaching job. I slept on his couch and I'd used to teach kindergarten in the beginning.

00:51:55.820 And I built myself up, got an apartment and basically went from there. And I ended up living

00:52:00.440 for 14 years in China, um, and doing some incredible adventures, uh, along with Matt here,

00:52:07.800 we rode motorcycles throughout the whole of China. We made a couple of television documentaries and,

00:52:12.520 um, we, what, what really blew me away was how different China was to my expectations when I

00:52:19.900 first got there. Uh, because as you say, uh, Western media and American media and so on,

00:52:25.960 you used to paint a very bleak picture of China at the time, but China was changing and China was

00:52:31.800 changing rapidly. And I could see that there was a lot of good there and a lot of interesting things

00:52:36.300 to share with the world. And that's why, um, I started my YouTube channel, which happens to be the

00:52:40.960 first YouTube channel out of mainland China ever. Um, but of course, yeah, as things progressed,

00:52:48.700 things changed and China stopped being this country that was opening up and all this opportunity and,

00:52:54.500 and really growing and started to revert and kind of go backwards and become more closed up and locked

00:53:00.960 down and more, um, hostile towards, uh, foreigners and so on. And so it reached a point where, uh,

00:53:07.400 we had to leave. When, when did it change and why? Honestly, if I'm looking back at it, you could,

00:53:13.760 you know, you, you have the boiled frog syndrome. You don't really notice it because it's just

00:53:17.460 gradually happening. But I really think there was a turning point for me in 2015, when we shot our

00:53:23.380 first documentary, when we were riding motorcycles through these kind of places where nobody had seen

00:53:29.660 before, at least in the West, um, through provinces like Guizhou or Yunnan, these areas where we had

00:53:35.820 previously been before with no problems, all of a sudden problems started creeping up. So we started

00:53:41.220 seeing police minders following us around. There were people literally like cops on the side of the

00:53:45.760 road as we would ride by marking our location and radioing to the next police officer. We would go to

00:53:51.440 an area where the police would tell all of the hotels that we are not allowed to even be there or stay

00:53:56.860 there. So we'd have to go to the next area. All of this started ramping up around 2015 and really

00:54:02.180 came to a head. I think around 2017 ish, when we shot our second show, um, you know, we were busted,

00:54:09.200 the, the SWAT team busted in, in our hotel. When we were filming, we were filming very innocuous

00:54:13.580 things. We're filming camels and minority cultures and things that are very pro China to make China look 0.88

00:54:19.380 good to the rest of the world, to show people things that we found beautiful about China. But still the

00:54:24.700 government was so paranoid, became so paranoid about anyone with a camera that wasn't Chinese or

00:54:30.100 anyone that wasn't approved by the government to be filming or even traveling around China at all.

00:54:35.200 Um, you know, and putting it out there for the rest of the world to see. So I'd say 2015 to 2017

00:54:39.980 is where it got really hot. Yeah. That's what changed for you guys. But Winston, do you feel like

00:54:44.080 China itself was changing or do you feel like you were just kind of unaware prior to that?

00:54:49.060 Absolutely. China was changing. Um, and we saw this happen. Definitely. We can trace it back to 0.68

00:54:56.020 when Xi Jinping, um, took office and it was when he rose to power that he decided to change things.

00:55:02.320 Um, and he was sick and tired of the old hide your strengths and bide your time. Um, this has always

00:55:07.940 been what China has done in the past since Deng Xiaoping. And so Xi Jinping came along and he said,

00:55:12.780 you know what? We're powerful enough now. China is powerful. We're not going to hide our strengths

00:55:17.080 and bide our time anymore. It's our turn to be in the spotlight. We're, we're going to be the center

00:55:21.360 of the universe now. And so he started to really enact a lot of nationalist policies. And, you know,

00:55:28.060 when I first got to China, you could still see the remnants of, um, communism as in all the banners,

00:55:33.780 you know, you'd see a lot of hammers and sickles. You'd see the one child policy, uh, propaganda

00:55:38.080 all over the place on the buildings and, you know, Soviet style artwork. Um, but throughout the years,

00:55:44.780 that stuff started to be taken down, they'd paint over that stuff that you wouldn't see

00:55:49.160 the hammers and sickles everywhere. You wouldn't see all that communist symbolism. But after

00:55:54.360 Xi Jinping took power, he started to bring that back and you'd see more and more of these banners,

00:55:58.600 these propaganda banners and all the hammers and sickles came back and, uh, you could see

00:56:03.380 it was really regressing. And, you know, we, we didn't just live in China. Both of us learned

00:56:09.240 the language. I studied the language at Shenzhen University. Um, we both married, you know, locals.

00:56:15.080 So we both have Chinese wives. We both have, um, you know, uh, children, half Chinese children,

00:56:21.180 and we really invested a lot into the country. And, um, we really understand the country very

00:56:27.800 well, having lived there and had businesses there and, and all the rest of it. Um, and so we are very

00:56:33.780 knowledgeable when it comes to China and we could see it changing. And it wasn't like, uh, just us

00:56:38.300 changing over time, maturing and getting older. It was really just, uh, uh, a very sudden shift

00:56:44.300 in the attitude that China had towards dealing with the rest of the world that drove us off in the

00:56:48.660 end. What take us to sort of the day in day out, uh, business of living in China. I'm wondering how

00:56:56.440 communism manifested other than we'll get to the crackdown on YouTube, but what, how, how did

00:57:02.420 communism show up on a day-to-day basis there? Honestly, if you, if you were to go to China back 0.91

00:57:08.540 in 08, when I went there, and like I said, maybe up to 2015, you wouldn't really see communism. In

00:57:14.500 fact, like Winston said, it was being dismantled in a way, at least the symbology of it was being

00:57:19.500 removed. It was almost exotic to see something like a hammer and sickle or a, or a propaganda banner.

00:57:25.280 Um, those things were coming down and it was being replaced with free market capitalism. And it was

00:57:31.100 almost like it was government policy to make sure that people, uh, you know, the things that they

00:57:36.400 saw and the lives that they lit, they live, the lives that they lived were conducive to China 0.99

00:57:41.180 growing economically. So that meant more foreign investment, more welcoming for foreigners to come

00:57:45.680 over there and start the businesses and things like this. So I would say in that time period,

00:57:49.860 you wouldn't really see communism outside of maybe, uh, you know, thousands of kids gathering to do

00:57:55.580 their salute to the flag raising and their, uh, morning exercise to the coordinated

00:58:00.700 communist sounding songs and the, you know, the Chinese flag going up with the national anthem.

00:58:05.180 Those things were remnants of that, uh, pieces of the education system that had very heavy handed

00:58:10.380 with nationalism, things like that. Very, very, uh, clear that this was an authoritarian power,

00:58:15.120 but the communist stuff again was being removed. So would, to see that come back was a huge shock for

00:58:21.580 us because it wasn't just the banners. It wasn't just the huge Xi Jinping, uh, you know, billboards

00:58:26.620 waving at everybody in like a really poor rural village. It wasn't just a symbology. It was also the state

00:58:32.800 that was going from talking about why China should grow economically. And maybe that's why we should

00:58:38.220 be nice to other countries and cooperate to, no, we don't need those countries anymore. We are better

00:58:44.140 than the rest of the world. We don't need these aggressors. The rest of the world wants to see China fail

00:58:49.160 and really turn inwards. And I think that state media narrative, you know, China's blocks, most of

00:58:55.100 the internet, China controls all, you know, the state controls, all the media going out to the

00:58:59.220 people. So that can really flip a switch. And I saw that change when, uh, Russia is no longer

00:59:06.060 communist, but, uh, obviously has its roots there. And I've been over there a few times over the past

00:59:11.080 few years and Moscow and St. Petersburg and elsewhere, you go over there, looks very much,

00:59:15.980 feels very much in some ways like America. You could, you go out to a restaurant, you go out

00:59:20.680 having drinks with friends at night. Now, in my case, I was followed around by government agents

00:59:25.660 the whole time because I was there to meet with Putin. But I think the average American wouldn't

00:59:29.460 necessarily have that experience with their bags being sifted through by, you know, his, his people 1.00

00:59:34.420 in any event. Um, but it was absolutely lovely. It felt very European. It like if you were to go 0.99

00:59:40.120 there, you wouldn't necessarily know you were in a country with those kinds of roots. And that kind of

00:59:44.200 history was China like that ever for you, or is it more like curfew bed, no drinking, no carousing?

00:59:52.460 No, absolutely. Listen, if you go to any of the first tier cities or, or even second tier cities

00:59:57.560 in China, so we're talking Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, you know, any of these big

01:00:01.400 cities, you will think that you're just in a first world country. You've got your Starbucks there.

01:00:05.980 You've got your McDonald's. You've got your, you know, very good infrastructure. You've got your

01:00:10.160 subway systems. You've got, uh, you know, very good roads. It looks fantastic, shiny buildings.

01:00:15.240 Um, and you do think that you're just in a normal, um, first world country and you can walk around

01:00:20.520 freely. It's very safe and you can go and do your banking or do whatever you want to do. Um,

01:00:25.860 it's when you leave the big cities that you really get to see what China is really like. Um, and for 1.00

01:00:31.840 instance, you just need to drive about an hour out of any of these cities and you will start to see a lot

01:00:37.200 of poverty. You will start to see a lot of, um, old style worn out propaganda everywhere. You'll

01:00:42.980 start to see, you know, uh, the, the real China. Um, and you know, this whole idea of China being

01:00:49.100 communist, it's, it's a weird one because in China, they call it communism and, or socialism with

01:00:54.880 Chinese characteristics, which just means that it can be whatever they want it to be. And they change 0.76

01:00:59.960 it all the time. You know, um, if you work for a big government, if you work for the government,

01:01:04.480 so if you're a policeman or you, you work for any government office, you still get this whole

01:01:09.640 remnants of communism stuff. They still give you a year's supply of rice and oil as your yearly end

01:01:15.360 bonus and toilet paper. It's kind of this whole, you know, the state providing thing, but that's

01:01:19.420 about as far as it goes, really. Um, they don't look after, there's not good social programs for the

01:01:24.360 average person, for instance. So, um, it's really communist in name only. You don't really get to see the,

01:01:30.100 the so-called fruits of communism, uh, so to speak. I always make a joke that America is more

01:01:35.380 communist than China. If we're talking about social, you're talking about the roots of like

01:01:38.680 communism, socialism, America has much more social programs than China does. China is probably the 0.95

01:01:44.120 least hospitable country in terms of social programs I've ever seen for calling for a country

01:01:48.640 that calls itself socialist or communist. And we're getting more authoritarian by the day,

01:01:52.380 uh, as we discuss often on this show. All right. So you're over there. That's good. That's a good

01:01:56.380 scene setter. So you're over there. You're doing your YouTube show. You're out on your motorcycles.

01:02:00.240 You marry Chinese women. Life sounds like it's pretty good. And then you, you mentioned Matt,

01:02:05.440 that you just started to see like people following you and like sort of a crackdown began not, not

01:02:10.580 being able to check into hotels that you would have expected. There would have been no trouble

01:02:13.980 checking into. And I, I've read you, you've said before, one of the things that was odd to you about

01:02:20.460 it was you were pro China. You were not, I understand, you know, a discussion like this,

01:02:25.460 the Chinese might not like, we'll see how the YouTube people respond, but you were saying

01:02:31.080 positive things about China. So it, you, there must've been a period initially where you were

01:02:35.340 like, what's the problem? Yeah, absolutely. I think there was a huge wake up call, but I think

01:02:40.680 what Winston had a good point earlier, if you just go to China and you just walk around, you might think

01:02:45.480 that everything's normal, but when you understand the language and see how society is run, especially

01:02:48.960 how the government intertwines with people's daily lives, then you start to understand how things work.

01:02:53.300 And I think he realized, I think I realized over time is that that script of being an authoritarian

01:02:59.680 country with full control over everything was always there. Nothing changed necessarily. There

01:03:04.560 was on paper, it was always going to be an authoritarian country, but in that kind of golden period,

01:03:10.680 as we call it under Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao, those two, those two leaders before Xi Jinping,

01:03:15.620 we saw China be in a gray zone. It was a gray zone where yes, those rules were on paper,

01:03:21.400 but in reality, people could kind of do what they want as long as they were earning money

01:03:24.820 and they weren't really getting super involved or critical of the government.

01:03:28.240 So that kind of paper, that script was enacted again by the leadership under Xi Jinping, where

01:03:35.900 now all of these kind of secret police and all these things that were on retainer in the

01:03:40.980 background could now be enacted. And it doesn't matter if you're pro-China or not, because

01:03:45.500 there's a disconnect there. Nobody in Beijing was sitting down looking at our material saying,

01:03:50.020 wow, all of this is very pro-China. This is great. What they're seeing is, well, the leadership told

01:03:55.600 us that foreigners walking around with cameras and then posting to websites that we've blocked 0.70

01:03:59.720 in China is probably a bad thing. So we should make sure that they're being monitored. And that

01:04:04.680 gets out of hand. It's just like any authoritarian state. There's no, there's no real balance there.

01:04:10.100 It's either on or off. And they turned it on. And then all foreigners were bad with cameras at 1.00

01:04:14.340 that point, unless they can be co-opted. It's crazy to think in a country with a billion people,

01:04:19.420 they've got that close an eye on two guys like you, you know, with all due respect.

01:04:24.840 Like, this is the level of detail that they hone in on and pay attention to and punish if it's not

01:04:31.200 going their way or if they have even a suspicion. So when you talk about like how it started to

01:04:36.780 escalate. So you first, you have the people following you. You can't check into the hotels.

01:04:40.500 And then I know there was, you believe that there was, I've read you say that they wanted

01:04:45.260 to destroy you psychologically, targeting you, targeting your wives, targeting family members. 0.57

01:04:51.240 Walk us through some of that. Well, first of all, something that your audience needs to

01:04:55.780 understand is that in China, every single foreigner is watched. All right. Even before any of this 0.96

01:05:01.460 YouTube stuff, even before any of this, when you rent an apartment or move into a neighborhood,

01:05:06.820 you must report to the local police station within 24 hours of actually coming into China.

01:05:12.760 You're supposed to, but you know, you have to register, even if you're staying in a hotel,

01:05:17.060 usually the hotels actually do it for you. So when you sign in, they will send the paperwork

01:05:21.160 off to the local police to say, yeah, they're supposed to, all your details, your passport and

01:05:25.360 stuff. This foreigner is staying here. But when you move into an apartment, you must register with 1.00

01:05:29.700 the local police so that they know where the foreigners are. Now you get assigned basically a

01:05:34.920 minder who looks after all the foreigners in that particular area, maybe in that housing complex,

01:05:39.820 maybe in that neighborhood.

01:05:40.860 Like it's open. It's open that you have a minder. Everybody knows it.

01:05:43.960 Yeah. Yeah. You have to, you know, and I found this out right in the beginning because a plain 1.00

01:05:48.200 clothes guy, I wasn't aware. He just got to China and the rules are not very clear. And when I moved

01:05:52.320 into my first apartment, I got a knock on the door and a plain clothes police officer and a bunch of

01:05:57.300 his support and it's all walked in and started taking photos of me and stuff. And I couldn't really

01:06:00.760 understand what was going on. But it turns out he was the local police guy. He's very friendly and

01:06:05.240 all that. It wasn't a terrible experience or anything, but it wakes you up. Okay. You're

01:06:10.840 being watched. And later on, when I went to go and renew it, because you're supposed to renew it

01:06:17.900 whenever your visa changes or whatever. And I went into the local police station. And by that point,

01:06:22.980 I could read Chinese because I'd been studying Chinese. And they have like a, what's called a

01:06:28.800 temporary residence permit type thing that they keep in their system. And so they updated it and

01:06:34.960 then they stamp it and you have to give them your passport photo and all that. And when I looked at

01:06:39.040 it, I could see in the notes section, they had written down where I worked. They written down,

01:06:43.840 oh, he can speak Chinese and he can do this and that. Like a bunch of my movements and stuff were

01:06:49.620 written down in there. So they'd been keeping an eye on me. So everybody is watched, but it's,

01:06:55.840 it's an interesting situation because depending on your nationality, you're either watched more or

01:07:00.240 you watched less. So for instance, because I'm South African, in China, they don't like Africans at

01:07:06.360 all. They keep a very close eye on Africans. They put a priority on that. And because my passport is

01:07:11.420 African, they would come and knock on my door in the middle of the night, sometimes at 11, 12 at night 1.00

01:07:16.920 to just check up and check on my paperwork. Whenever something was happening, like for instance,

01:07:20.840 just before the Beijing Olympics, they ramped up this whole thing to make sure that all the

01:07:26.680 foreigners were in check. So they would come and quite often come and check up on me. But my 1.00

01:07:31.160 Australian friends or American friends, et cetera, wouldn't get the same sort of harassment because

01:07:36.860 they were from first world countries. So, you know, it all depends on your nationality,

01:07:41.320 how much you would be harassed, so to speak, by your minders. But it did then reach a point where

01:07:48.140 we started to become too famous and people started to know us too well. And I would start to get

01:07:54.260 visits from the police quite often. And things really, really degraded to a point where the

01:08:00.940 nationalists turned on us. And that's when things were really, really went crazy.

01:08:05.340 Well, like what happened, what started happening, Matt? Like, how did your life begin to change in

01:08:09.080 ways that scared you?

01:08:10.780 Well, you got death threats. You had people posting, you know, the area that you live on these

01:08:14.640 nationalist forums. And that if you were to complain to any of these forum owners or the

01:08:20.200 government or the police, none of these posts would be removed. It was clear that a switch had

01:08:24.140 been flipped. When, you know, what we saw happening was people would take our videos that would be very

01:08:31.120 positive. Let's say, for example, I'm thinking of a video we made. We're walking around and talking

01:08:35.040 about how China has cleaned up so much in the past few years, like how it's clean the streets have 0.98

01:08:39.580 become. And what happened was people uploaded that video, put it on the Chinese internet. So they

01:08:44.340 stole it off YouTube, put it on the Chinese internet, and then put fake subtitles up for

01:08:47.680 the people that didn't speak English. So what it would say is that, wow, look at how disgusting

01:08:51.920 everything is. It's so gross around here. Look at how awful China looks. And then people, you know, 1.00

01:08:57.520 it would rile up the nationalists. And this, we found out, was kind of by design. It was almost like

01:09:02.940 clockwork that this was happening. There was teams of people that were just kind of going after us.

01:09:07.420 And we realized it was an official capacity, like I said before, when people like the SWAT team and

01:09:12.980 detectives were showing up, knowing your entire history throughout China, knowing all your details,

01:09:18.040 your work contracts, your wife, where you shop, all this kind of stuff, you realize that you've

01:09:22.420 been being tracked the entire time. And they're trying to make you feel unwelcome for a very good

01:09:27.660 reason.

01:09:28.320 What happens when the SWAT team shows up? I mean, you say SWAT team, I think guns drawn.

01:09:32.600 That happened in Inner Mongolia, by the way. So the SWAT team, it's not like they turned up at our

01:09:37.380 house. We were out filming the tribes in Inner Mongolia, where they herd camels and things like

01:09:44.860 that.

01:09:45.080 Inner Mongolia is a province of China, by the way. So no one's confused.

01:09:47.660 Yeah. So it's all the way up on the border of Russia, like near the border of Russia and all

01:09:50.500 that up there. It's up there. So we're out there in the grasslands doing our thing in the middle of

01:09:54.620 nowhere. And China has this thing where you can't stay in hotels in the rural parts of China if you're

01:10:01.820 a foreigner. They have designated hotels that are allowed to have foreigners stay in them.

01:10:09.100 So it's kind of difficult to find a hotel in this particular rural area. There was only one hotel in

01:10:14.000 one town that could have foreigners stay in it.

01:10:16.100 It's kind of like North Korea. 0.76

01:10:17.080 Yeah. So we head to that town. And they had been tipped off that we'd be there by a nationalist.

01:10:24.740 It's a bit of a long story, but a nationalist who was kind of out to get us. And so we got raided in

01:10:30.740 the middle of the night in Inner Mongolia, thousands, like thousands of kilometers away

01:10:34.660 from where we live. And they brought in the PLA. They brought in the local Communist Party sort of

01:10:42.080 head official. They brought in detectives, like you said. And they were discussing where our wives

01:10:48.740 worked and all this kind of stuff when we were all the way up there in Inner Mongolia.

01:10:52.660 It's pretty wild.

01:10:53.040 So what about your wives? Because it doesn't sound like they caught a break just because they were

01:10:58.680 Chinese.

01:10:59.920 No, that's the thing. The Chinese government has this mechanism that it uses. It uses family to

01:11:04.760 intimidate people. So they know that if they bring your family into anything, it's like the mafia,

01:11:09.080 right? They want to silence you. They want to affect you. They threaten your family. So this is a very

01:11:14.980 well-known tactic. So they know that if they bring your wives into it and they threaten the stability 1.00

01:11:19.840 of your wife's livelihood or her life or whatever the case, her lifestyle, that it will intimidate

01:11:26.600 people into silence, for instance.

01:11:28.160 Yeah. Yeah. So there are things that were happening to them. Like my wife had quit her 0.99

01:11:32.520 previous job, but she worked at, I won't give the company details or anything, but she worked as a

01:11:37.160 sales manager for a big electronics company. And what was happening is there were people within the

01:11:42.700 government and nationalists and things that were reporting to her boss, thinking she was still

01:11:48.060 working there and sending official, like you're looking government documents saying that she's a spy, 0.94

01:11:53.200 saying that she's a traitor to the nation and all this kind of stuff. And this stuff was allowed 0.95

01:11:58.700 to proliferate. Even though it wasn't true, it was allowed to proliferate because it was a way to get

01:12:02.520 to us, to silence us. And we, at some point we just said that that's enough. You know, we had seen

01:12:08.220 how sinister and evil the Chinese government can actually be. And that's honestly, that's why the 1.00

01:12:13.440 Chinese government doesn't like us so much is because we live there. We're not just guys that are,

01:12:17.160 you know, reading the newspaper saying, wow, China's, you know, become so evil because of the

01:12:21.260 government. We lived through it. We see what they do. The tactics have been employed on us. So we

01:12:25.540 know how, how it works and probably what they're going to do going forward. And that's why we do

01:12:30.440 what we do now. Yeah. You know, you were a far cry from upstate New York in those moments. I can't

01:12:35.140 imagine. Hello, Binghamton. Go ahead. Shout out to Binghamton. You know, my wife is a doctor and that is

01:12:44.060 a government position in China, you know, because any kind of policeman doctor, it's all, you know,

01:12:50.540 it's not like in the States where it's a high paying job. It's that you're a civil servant,

01:12:54.140 basically. So she is a doctor and, um, they went after both my wife and his wife at the same time.

01:13:00.860 And what happened here was this was a nationalist movement. So the, the ultra nationalists of China,

01:13:06.800 of which there are many, and the government relies on the nationalists and they turn them on and off to

01:13:11.300 boycott products or, you know, boycott a certain nation or whatever at any time, given time.

01:13:16.480 Um, they put together like a 24 page document with screenshots of me and my wife and so on,

01:13:22.200 and you and your wife, uh, online and, uh, you know, sent them through to the public security bureau,

01:13:28.380 sent them through to the medical board, the, the, all the hospitals in, in the city that I used to

01:13:33.740 live in and all, you know, basically all the different levels that they could, uh, calling my

01:13:38.040 wife a traitor and saying that she sympathizes with foreign powers and that she report. Yeah, 0.93

01:13:43.060 it was the same report, just differently worded with the pictures of us. And it actually resulted

01:13:47.540 in my wife getting a disciplinary hearing. She had to get pulled in and, you know, they had to figure 0.91

01:13:51.800 out what was going on. Of course, she'd been a doctor for many years and, uh, they, they knew that

01:13:56.840 none of this was true because, you know, she's, she knows all her higher ups and her bosses and so on. 0.60

01:14:02.140 So it was taken care of. Luckily it didn't, uh, result in her getting fired or any, any detention or

01:14:07.800 anything, but that was their end goal was to try and disrupt my life by going after my wife and,

01:14:14.160 uh, going after your wife. And it's, it's really cowardly and, and disgusting tactics, but that was 0.95

01:14:20.060 really just part of it. I still stayed in China after that. We still stayed in China after that.

01:14:25.540 We still continued and we were not very critical of China. That's the thing that the kind of things 0.99

01:14:30.420 that we were homing in on and, uh, discussing were the, uh, social problems that affected not only us,

01:14:36.560 but our Chinese families and the Chinese people around us. For instance, the horrendous kidnapping

01:14:41.220 issue in China, you know, you're going to have a child in China. You have to watch out. Kidnapping 1.00

01:14:45.520 is huge. It's a big problem, you know, but we talk about kidnapping and all of a sudden we're enemies

01:14:51.400 of the state. Why, why is it a big problem? Is it related to the one child policy? Oh, there's a huge

01:14:56.780 industry. Uh, there's a lot of very, very sinister industries going on in China. I think a lot of people

01:15:01.420 rely on China's public data for like crime and safety when that's absolute nonsense,

01:15:06.480 they can put out whatever they want, just like their COVID numbers. Um, it's all manufactured.

01:15:10.760 So when you live in China, you start to see some of the ills. Oh, I mean, I don't want to shock your 1.00

01:15:14.520 audience too much, but like one of the first things I saw when I went to China was I was going down an

01:15:19.740 escalator just to go shopping outside of a massive, you know, wealthy looking supermarket slash mall.

01:15:25.580 And I see a child alone, maybe three years old, um, missing, missing a limb and covered in severe

01:15:33.740 acid burns. And it was begging, uh, this child was begging with a, with a bowl. I couldn't tell if it

01:15:39.760 was a boy or a girl, um, just right there on the street. And people were walking by the police were

01:15:45.280 walking by, nothing was being done. And it was kind of like a light bulb went off in my head. I was

01:15:49.700 like, maybe the, maybe the stuff I've been reading about China's like, you know, crime and safety and

01:15:55.360 this kind of stuff. The statistics are not correct. Maybe this is supposed to be one great thing

01:16:00.180 about China that if you live there, you don't have to worry about crime because of all the things

01:16:04.660 you're discussing. We've talked about this multiple times. You have to live in China to see how the 1.00

01:16:10.080 crime works. It's, I mean, my house is almost broken into, you know, successfully broken into

01:16:15.080 multiple times. There's one time my wife, there's a guy scaling the building, trying to get into her

01:16:19.200 window. She threw a flower pot at him to get him to fall down off the building. It's petty crime. 0.83

01:16:23.860 Wait, why are kidnapping so bad? Is it because of the one child policy, which was in place for so

01:16:28.780 many years? There's some of that, you know, as far as the kidnapping is concerned, rural families

01:16:33.840 who can't have children, who want children, um, they pay for children so that they can have a son

01:16:39.780 to look after them and to take care of things. And they pay a lot of money for that sort of thing.

01:16:44.000 There's all the human trafficking when, when it comes to beggar gangs and, you know, the more 1.00

01:16:48.220 sinister stuff too. Um, there's a lot of terrible things happening, but kidnapping is such a

01:16:52.760 massive issue in China that it's never, it's never covered, but Chinese people know about it.

01:16:57.140 Oh yeah. They're so afraid to leave their child anywhere by themselves. You know, it's, uh, it's,

01:17:03.000 it's a terrifying, terrifying situation, but you know, I actually stopped a child trafficking gang on

01:17:08.660 the subway of, uh, Shenzhen. Oh, sure. As you do. Yeah. No, seriously. And it really, it really,

01:17:15.280 it really annoyed me because, um, I was taking the subway and I noticed begging is not allowed on the,

01:17:21.540 on the Shenzhen Metro, which is the underground train system there. But, uh, one day there was a

01:17:26.220 woman there came in with an overcoat and then she took off her overcoat and she's wearing kind of shabby

01:17:30.860 clothes and she had a child strapped to her back and she started begging and people were giving her money.

01:17:35.500 Um, but I thought it was kind of weird cause the child was about two years old and was very silent

01:17:41.200 and, and, uh, not moving around really looked drugged and groggy. So, um, I kind of took some

01:17:46.980 photos of her and the next day I took the Metro again and there was a different woman, um, same emo, 0.94

01:17:53.560 took off the overcoat, had raggedy clothes underneath and a child on her back. And I noticed it was the

01:17:58.800 same child. So I took photos of her too. And then the third day when a third woman came along and had 0.66

01:18:04.720 the same child on her back, I actually physically grabbed her and pulled her off of the train and

01:18:08.700 called security. And so the security guards came down and the police came and, uh, I Bluetooth all

01:18:13.960 the photos to them. And then, uh, they actually took her away. Hopefully the child was, uh, taken care

01:18:20.580 of properly. And then they actually put up banners in the Metro stations to say, don't give money to

01:18:25.020 people like this and put some of the pictures I'd taken. So, you know, it's the complacency of society

01:18:31.640 that allows this kind of thing to happen as well, because you don't want to stand out in,

01:18:36.260 in China. If you try to stand out and make a fuss, you, you, your life gets destroyed basically.

01:18:41.420 I can't, I cannot imagine walking past a three-year-old who's been burned and is missing

01:18:46.060 a limb and just not doing anything about it. It's just, it's hard to understand how you get into that

01:18:51.260 headspace. And it's also very scary to think when you were saying that they're following you,

01:18:55.680 I was thinking in my own head, what would somebody who is following me see like the most boring life

01:19:00.600 there. She's gone to the school again. She's gone to the vet again. She's back at the vet,

01:19:04.880 the school, the vet. It's like, it's not exciting, but it, it doesn't matter. That's the point you're

01:19:09.100 making that they're there. The whole point is to make things up about you. So they're not actually

01:19:13.220 out for an earnest search of who Winston and Matt are. They're out to ruin you and your wives. 0.94

01:19:19.660 And it's really tough to fight back when that's from a government. Let me pause it here.

01:19:24.460 And then we'll turn the page when we come back. There's so much more to go over. And Winston and Matt

01:19:28.100 have a lot of thoughts on China in general and what it's doing with respect to the United States

01:19:32.120 and the world that we need to keep our eye on. But we aren't. Some are, but for the most part, we're

01:19:36.780 not. China's zero COVID policies are in the news these days because of major protests breaking out

01:19:45.080 in the country. These major protests led to the government changing its zero COVID policy,

01:19:50.240 which was so restrictive. And since they've lifted it now, Chinese health authorities suddenly willing to

01:19:56.180 volunteer all sorts of information. And that information is that 80% of the country has

01:20:00.280 contracted COVID since they lifted those restrictions to appease the citizenry just

01:20:05.140 this past December. I'm sure. I'm sure every single case happened post that. Although, of course,

01:20:10.940 nobody outside of China can verify these numbers. So they're pretty good at misinformation. 0.60

01:20:15.160 Winston and Matt, we have no idea what to believe when China releases any sort of facts and figures.

01:20:20.280 What do you think about that issue in particular? Zero COVID. What's happened there? And,

01:20:24.240 you know, this new attempt to spin. Honestly, I think a huge part of this was the protests that

01:20:30.860 followed. But first of all, so your audience understands that when people talk about lockdowns

01:20:35.360 in Australia or in America or in any of these other countries, it's not the same lockdowns that

01:20:40.340 were happening in China. In China, we were talking about lockdowns where people were getting welded

01:20:43.940 into their houses. People were starving out because the government programs weren't giving them enough

01:20:48.460 food. We were talking about lockdowns where people were separated from their families. I mean,

01:20:52.400 they were taking kids from families and putting them into quarantine camps. It was crazy. It was

01:20:57.520 like something, you know, it was unprecedented. And so when we're talking about lockdowns,

01:21:02.460 we're talking about people for years being locked into prison-like state. And it takes a mental toll

01:21:08.420 on everyone, physical, mental, economic toll on everyone in the country. So when these protests,

01:21:13.880 they were bound to happen, right? But even for us, it was quite a shock to see people taking to the

01:21:19.080 streets to protest really anything. Because in China, protesting is not allowed. It's not allowed

01:21:24.900 to gather people together and stand up for any sort of issue unless it's government-sponsored or you

01:21:31.580 apply ahead of time and the issue has been agreed upon by the government. So for example, popular topics

01:21:37.120 to protest about in the past were like anti-Japan protests.

01:21:40.140 Yeah, I was going to say America.

01:21:42.020 Yeah. So going back to that, to see these people protest and go out there and then to watch the

01:21:48.480 protests morph into from, you know, stop these lockdowns into step down Xi Jinping, step down

01:21:55.120 CCP. Let's like, you know, the government needs to step down. That was crazy. It was mind-blowing.

01:22:00.520 We called it almost like a mini revolution or a Tiananmen Square 2.0 because we've never seen anything

01:22:05.980 like that since 1989. But we did have a major issue with how this was kind of being spun.

01:22:12.980 Although the protests led to the government having a knee-jerk reaction in lifting those COVID lockdowns

01:22:20.560 and all these crazy archaic, you know, measures that they were taking, although that caused that

01:22:25.360 to happen, it's not that the protesters won. Because I think a lot of people stopped the story

01:22:30.100 after that. I think they said, wow, their demands were achieved. I guess the government buckled.

01:22:34.520 What they don't realize is that after the fact, the police, the secret police, the government

01:22:39.880 tracked every single person that was even near the protests. I mean, we're talking to people

01:22:44.220 the other day that didn't even participate in the protests, but they were near them and

01:22:49.000 they were visited by police. And the people that participated were disappeared. And we're

01:22:53.800 talking about kids that were just holding up blank pieces of paper and the protests were

01:22:57.200 taken away by secret police. So that's where the conversation stopped. And we were really

01:23:01.680 disappointed to see that people didn't realize that the protests weren't necessarily successful.

01:23:06.860 China is still a very, very authoritarian, crazy, you know, archaic system where they will go after 1.00

01:23:13.580 anyone for standing up against the government. It's just this time they got away with it because 0.62

01:23:17.360 they did it silently.

01:23:18.960 The following up on what we've discussed in the last segment about the crime and what's actually

01:23:24.620 happening there and listening to you describe these government tactics of disappearing people and so on.

01:23:29.180 Um, I've got to ask you about this op-ed in the New York times, which I'm sure you saw by Heather

01:23:33.080 Kay talking about what a lovely experience it was raising her children. She's American in China.

01:23:38.980 Um, I work in the fashion industry, took my husband and me to Shanghai in 2006, where we spent the next

01:23:43.320 16 years, started a family in China. Government co-parenting begins in the womb. They opted to send 0.99

01:23:50.460 their twins, I think to Chinese kindergarten. You know about that Winston, um, lecturing us on everything

01:23:56.880 in the Chinese kindergarten, including how many hours our daughters should sleep, what they should

01:24:00.980 eat and their optimal weight. Most of us, Heather can figure that out without the government. Just 0.99

01:24:05.320 FYI. Um, people have been doing it for, since the beginning of time, she goes on to say, um, each

01:24:10.160 morning, all the students performed calisthenics in straight rows and raised China's red flag while

01:24:14.780 singing the national anthem. Now I have to say, I would like to see some more civics here in America,

01:24:18.880 and I would like to see the pledge and a little bit more push toward patriotism like we used to have.

01:24:23.520 So there's a piece of me that felt a little envy when I read just that tiny piece of it.

01:24:27.600 Um, but then she goes on to talk about how we sometimes felt as if our children were on loan

01:24:32.620 to us for evenings and weekends to be delivered back to school each weekday. She loved how,

01:24:38.840 how academically driven they were because they didn't want to disappoint their teachers.

01:24:44.060 They would repeat Chinese propaganda concerning keeping up with their peers, despair, whatever.

01:24:48.780 Uh, then she goes on to say, um, that the surveillance state results in its own kind of

01:24:55.700 freedom with crime and personal safety concerns, virtually eliminated. Our daughters were riding

01:25:00.900 the subway unsupervised in a city of around 26 million people from the age of 11. I got to tell

01:25:07.020 you guys, I'm so glad to hear you tell the truth because part of me was like, well, that'd be nice

01:25:11.320 as a person who had kids in New York for nine years. You can't do that there. But this,

01:25:16.140 what is this? Is this propaganda by this woman? There's a, there's a couple of things. And I know

01:25:21.040 you've got a lot to say on this, but the first thing that I want to address strangely enough is

01:25:25.700 the idea of her children traveling by themselves on the subway. Well, because the children are not

01:25:32.160 Chinese, the chances of them actually being targeted by crime are zero because in China, 0.95

01:25:38.160 if you're caught messing around with foreigners, um, the penalties are so much higher. So your 0.62

01:25:45.880 pickpockets, your general criminals, your kidnappers will not, first of all, you can't kidnap a foreign 0.67

01:25:51.080 child. You will not be able to sell them. It's too, you know, you can't pretend that this is someone 0.79

01:25:56.280 else's child if you're selling it to someone in the rural countryside. So a foreign child will be safe 1.00

01:26:01.640 a hundred percent. And foreigners, foreigners in general are very safe in China because,

01:26:06.020 you know, they just aren't messed with because the repercussions are too high. And the second

01:26:10.780 thing I want to say is that this, this woman went 2006 is when I went to China, February of 2006.

01:26:16.900 That's when I first arrived in China. And I lived through the entire period all the way up to 2019.

01:26:22.480 And I saw what she's saw in the beginning was a China that was changing for the positive. So she 0.88

01:26:29.580 got a positive, um, uh, experience in the beginning, but not only that Shanghai is not China. All right.

01:26:36.500 Shanghai is the most cosmopolitan, most foreign friendly city in China. So it's like going to New

01:26:44.340 York or something like that. You know, you can't compare New York to rural Alabama or something like

01:26:49.040 that. You just can't do it. It's Shanghai. Um, we call it the Shanghai bubble and that's where most

01:26:54.700 foreigners end up because it's so much more like home. You know, you have a certain, I mean, 1.00

01:27:00.040 they got a Hooters there for crying out loud. Okay. I shot a video there. Yeah. Yeah. Shanghai is,

01:27:05.460 is, is the most international, um, cosmopolitan city of China. So to use that as an example is a very

01:27:12.560 bad example. And when it comes to teaching children in kindergarten, because I actually did teach

01:27:17.400 kindergarten children for about a year and a half, right in the beginning. Sure. They get to do the

01:27:23.300 flag raising and the calisthenics and all that nonsense in the morning, but they also get taught 0.97

01:27:27.020 to hate Japanese people. For instance, I remember four and five year old children being told by the

01:27:32.880 teaching assistant, never trust Japanese people. They're all liars and cheats and, and, uh, you know, 1.00

01:27:37.320 that type of thing. And I was thinking to myself, why, why do you have to teach young children to hate 0.99

01:27:41.460 so much? And they also keep getting taught that the outside world is out there to, um, take advantage of

01:27:47.240 China and so on and so forth. And you're just thinking it's unnecessary to teach so much hate

01:27:51.920 to such young children. You know, I, I was going through this op-ed a couple of times. Um, I, I

01:27:57.560 would never go after someone for having an opinion and I'm never going to call someone's experience a

01:28:01.360 lie, but I can say that again, it doesn't represent China as a whole. China is a massive country and

01:28:07.660 Shanghai is very, very specific place, but all of these, you know, so-called advantages she's talking

01:28:14.120 about, one of them really bothered me. And that was being, you know, uh, walking out from the,

01:28:19.080 walking away from the article, thinking that now her kids are going to have a better experience

01:28:23.480 having gone through all that because they might see the world from a different perspective. I like

01:28:27.720 that. I like that idea. I think that's a great idea, but China, the Chinese education system teaches 0.98

01:28:33.180 xenophobia. It teaches nationalism. It teaches very, very, not just not patriotism, blind patriotism in

01:28:40.820 all the worst ways. I mean, they take students when they're seven, eight, nine years old to museums

01:28:45.360 to go see mutilated bodies from the, from the Japanese war experiments and the war crimes that

01:28:50.140 they, they, um, did in China. All of these things are to brainwash children at a very young age to 0.77

01:28:55.140 make them feel like they are separate from the rest of the world. And I think it's teaching the

01:28:59.600 opposite of inclusivity. I think all of these things that Heather was talking about in the article

01:29:03.560 about how there's more community aspects, there was more like camaraderie, there's more people

01:29:08.260 coming together. I think is, I had the exact opposite experience in China. I saw some of the 0.87

01:29:13.140 worst bullying I've ever seen in my life in the Chinese education system. The kids treating each

01:29:17.800 other very, very poorly. This sense of community I think is fantasy. I think the Chinese public 1.00

01:29:22.500 education system breeds contempt. It's not, it doesn't breed any sort of individuality, individuality.

01:29:29.040 It doesn't reward any sort of creativity. And I see the polar opposite in the American education

01:29:34.040 system, which obviously a lot of people criticize, but I see such nice attributes coming out of my

01:29:40.020 kids and such nice things being taught where people are equal, where everyone has the same

01:29:44.740 opportunity and chance. It doesn't matter where you come from. It doesn't matter. Uh, maybe you're an

01:29:48.940 immigrant from another country. People cater to your needs. People want to learn more about you.

01:29:53.340 It's such a better system and a more healthy system to raise your child in than compared to the

01:29:58.880 Chinese system. So I found this article mostly fantasy.

01:30:01.500 Don't forget about the competition that the education system breeds. You know, in China, 0.92

01:30:06.080 especially, uh, the Gaokao, which is this, um, entrance exam into universities, the most

01:30:10.700 important part of Chinese education. If you fail at that, or if you don't do well, um, in that

01:30:15.900 particular test, you will not go to a university or you will not go to a good university. It doesn't

01:30:21.220 matter who you are. You see, it doesn't matter. Obviously rich people, they pay their way through and

01:30:25.200 so on, but like supposedly it doesn't matter who you are. Um, and so the amount of pressure that's put

01:30:31.060 on children in order to pass that, um, really it drives, it actually does drive children to suicide

01:30:37.720 and it's a very bad system, but what it does is it breeds this, um, this, this horrible sort of,

01:30:43.840 uh, a situation where all the children are competing for these spots in the university. So they,

01:30:48.340 they turn on each other and they, um, they over study and they over focus on this stuff. And it's

01:30:54.260 very detrimental to the mental health of the children anyway. Yeah.

01:30:57.620 All right. Let me, let me, um, shift gears cause we don't have a long time left. You guys got to

01:31:02.240 come back because I want to hear all your thoughts on all the stuff China's doing to us. I want to

01:31:06.160 hear about the land buys. I want to hear about what they're doing in the oceans. I know you guys

01:31:09.480 are great on that. Um, the, the technological theft, the trademark theft, there's so much to go

01:31:14.600 over, which we won't get to in our first time together, but talk to me about what's happened

01:31:19.280 since you, you peaced out of there. You came back to America. Um, first of all, I'm interested

01:31:24.080 Winston, whether your wife, does she have to go back to medical school here? Is she working?

01:31:28.480 Like, how does that work now? Oh, no, she's, she's on a dependence visa, 0.99

01:31:32.760 so she's not allowed to work. So she's a full-time housewife at the moment. 1.00

01:31:37.140 So I assume, I mean, I'll just give you one example. I had a very contentious interview

01:31:41.000 when we first launched this show with Mark Cuban, in which I tried to get him to say something mildly

01:31:45.620 critical of China's human rights record, um, in the way he's criticizing America through BLM and so 0.84

01:31:51.760 on. And he wouldn't do it. I mean, he tried so hard not to do it until I almost made him.

01:31:56.220 And then weirdly, I not only sounds paranoid, but weirdly that my phone got completely bombed with

01:32:00.120 all those like fake phone calls. And like, I mean, for a month and a half, it just was nonstop just

01:32:06.040 right after that interview. And then we put the super blocking technology on it and it's been okay.

01:32:10.220 But am I crazy to think that the Chinese did something to me? Are you, do you suffer consequences 0.99

01:32:16.060 for your China critiques to this day? Absolutely. Um, I think that it's not good

01:32:21.940 to inspire them. So, you know, there's not a whole lot. Yeah, for sure. Uh, but that being said,

01:32:29.100 uh, we did a major, you know, shift after we, we moved to America and that's because

01:32:33.360 we found like-minded individuals. It wasn't just us. Like, I don't want to make this about us. We

01:32:38.460 talked about the SWAT team. We talked about getting harassed and followed around China. But again,

01:32:41.760 by and large, if you're a foreigner, that's not famous in China, you have a certain privilege

01:32:46.360 over the average Chinese person. You get away with a lot more. But that being said, when we moved to 0.99

01:32:51.680 America, we met dissidents, Chinese dissidents from mainland China that we could converse to in

01:32:55.880 Chinese and found out what they went through. It inspired us to start telling the truth about what

01:33:01.420 we were holding back when we were in China. All the things that we were seeing under the surface,

01:33:05.900 we could now talk about, and we could give a voice to the thousands and thousands of dissidents that

01:33:11.500 we meet here in the U S that can't speak up because either they have family back home or,

01:33:15.640 you know, they'll be targeted more so than maybe, um, you know, a native English speaking voice out

01:33:21.480 there. So it was almost like fuel to the fire. It was like, finally, we have met people that are

01:33:27.700 ostracized, marginalized, and also harassed by this horrible authoritarian government. And we wanted to

01:33:34.280 speak up on their behalf, but not only for that reason, because we also saw that the Chinese

01:33:38.800 government has been creeping into different political systems or not just political systems,

01:33:43.080 but in different Western countries in general and trying to exploit them.

01:33:47.180 I have to say that what shocked me the most when I came to America is just how easily the Chinese 1.00

01:33:52.460 government is able to take advantage of systems here. And they've crept into everything. And it's

01:33:57.400 so easy to see how they mold and shape the diaspora here, the way they control people here in the States, 0.99

01:34:03.660 the way that they control universities and opinions about China through things like the Confucius

01:34:08.360 Institutes, for instance, and all these language and cultural programs and all these, these things

01:34:13.280 they have with universities, for instance, where they, they give money and so on. Um, it's just crazy just

01:34:18.280 how easily they've gotten in here and gotten their tentacles into every part of life in America.

01:34:23.220 And the, really the biggest victims are the Chinese people that come here to America 1.00

01:34:26.860 to use the freedom and the free education system into it, learn new ideas, share new ideas,

01:34:32.560 and then still get harassed by the tentacles of the Chinese government here on American soil.

01:34:37.420 And that's what we can.

01:34:38.300 You're talking about the university system, thinking about the Penn Biden Center, which,

01:34:41.540 you know, you know, you Penn got all this money once it affiliated with him from the Chinese

01:34:45.880 50 million bucks. It's not a coincidence. It's, you know, they try to buy influence and we

01:34:50.520 ignore it at our peril to be continued. Let's do a part two guys. Thank you so much for being on.

01:34:55.740 Thank you, Megan.

01:34:56.960 And tomorrow folks, Michael Knowles and Mike Baker will be here. We'll see you then.

01:35:03.340 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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