The Megyn Kelly Show - Exclusive Breonna Taylor Raid Details, and Omicron Reality, with Sgt. John Mattingly and David Leonhardt ｜ Ep. 279

00:00:00.500 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.700 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live this week from Montana.

00:00:17.380 One of the most influential reporters when it comes to COVID, David Leonhardt of The New York Times, will be here later today.

00:00:24.360 His latest piece on the data showing COVID precautions like masks and social distancing did basically nothing to stop the spread of Omicron,

00:00:34.360 is drawing backlash from others in the media, despite it being a purely fact-based report.

00:00:40.940 We will speak to him about that and the backlash.

00:00:43.920 But we begin with an exclusive interview today with one of the officers involved in the Breonna Taylor case.

00:00:50.100 Yesterday marked two years since the shooting that took the life of Taylor.

00:00:54.360 Who was 26 years old at the time, Sergeant John Mattingly, was also shot during the raid.

00:01:00.320 He survived, but Mattingly says the false narrative about this shooting, driven by media,

00:01:07.280 by Hollywood's biggest stars, from Alicia Keys to George Clooney to Oprah Winfrey,

00:01:11.980 and even by our now vice president, destroyed his life.

00:01:15.840 He tells the story in his new book, Out Tomorrow, 12 Seconds in the Dark,

00:01:21.100 a police officer's first-hand account of the Breonna Taylor raid.

00:01:26.220 John, thank you so much for being here. How are you today?

00:01:29.080 Good. How are you?

00:01:30.200 Good. It's nice to meet you, and thank you for sitting and talking about this case.

00:01:35.340 So, to refresh our viewers' memory, this happened in Louisville, Kentucky.

00:01:41.500 We've had Daniel Cameron on a number of times.

00:01:43.240 He's the attorney general of the state who brought the case before the grand jury,

00:01:47.220 did not recommend criminal charges against you,

00:01:49.200 or your other officer, one officer, got charged with endangering some of the residents in the building.

00:01:56.180 We'll get to that in a second.

00:01:57.140 But you were not indicted. You were shot.

00:02:00.600 And this was the case about the so-called no-knock warrant

00:02:04.000 that you and your fellow officers executed just after midnight, two years ago.

00:02:08.900 And two people came out in the hallway, one of whom was 26-year-old Breonna Taylor,

00:02:14.580 and she was shot.

00:02:16.320 She was shot by your fellow officer because her boyfriend shot you.

00:02:21.780 That's basically what happened.

00:02:23.120 And then the media went off on how this was a black woman killed by white police officers

00:02:30.480 for absolutely no reason.

00:02:32.440 It was the middle of the night.

00:02:33.600 Some said she was shot in her bed.

00:02:35.840 You know, that she didn't stand a chance.

00:02:37.300 No one could understand why the cops were ambushing this poor young woman.

00:02:40.180 So that's just to refresh people how this became a national story

00:02:43.620 and was the subject of protests in Louisville for more than 100 days.

00:02:46.680 This is commented on by virtually everyone.

00:02:49.140 And you are the officer really at the center of it

00:02:52.040 because you're the guy who was shot by her boyfriend, Kenneth Walker,

00:02:55.840 who was the other man standing at the end of that hallway

00:02:57.780 when you went in, the other person next to her.

00:03:00.200 All right, so that's the overview.

00:03:01.800 Let's back up to how you experienced it.

00:03:04.760 That night, two years ago, did you have anything to do with the investigation into...

00:03:09.600 Kenneth Walker was in her house that night,

00:03:11.380 but she had a different boyfriend who was under investigation by the police

00:03:15.440 for allegedly being a drug dealer.

00:03:17.800 Did you have anything to do with that investigation?

00:03:21.600 No, the only part that you could say I had anything to do with was

00:03:25.860 at the time I'd left our major case unit,

00:03:28.420 which investigated, you know, large criminal syndicates and organizations.

00:03:33.000 We did wiretaps and, you know, worked with the feds.

00:03:36.220 And we did a lot of things on that level.

00:03:39.480 And I had moved to our parcel interdiction unit,

00:03:43.820 which worked with UPS, FedEx, and DHL, different carriers.

00:03:48.860 And we didn't have any relationship with the United States post office

00:03:52.600 because a couple of years prior,

00:03:54.860 there had been some tiff between the two departments, two agencies,

00:03:59.700 and they took their ball and went home, basically.

00:04:01.740 So, when the detective in charge came to me and said,

00:04:05.460 hey, do we have anything on this case?

00:04:07.100 I said, man, I have no contact,

00:04:09.180 but I'll reach out to the people that do

00:04:10.440 and see if there's anything that they can, you know, shed light on.

00:04:14.060 And at that time, they communicated back and forth

00:04:17.840 and realized that Jamarcus Clever did not have any,

00:04:22.160 what they called suspicious packages going there.

00:04:25.580 So, that's the only part I played in.

00:04:27.340 And other than that, we were just hired help for the night.

00:04:29.060 Okay. So, you and your fellow officers were told

00:04:32.640 to go to Breonna Taylor's residence

00:04:34.340 because she was believed to be the current

00:04:36.940 or on-again, off-again girlfriend of this guy, Glover,

00:04:40.340 who was suspected of dealing drugs.

00:04:43.140 And you do as told.

00:04:45.620 You go just about midnight with your fellow officers.

00:04:48.560 And this is where the facts get disputed,

00:04:53.500 whether it was a no-knock warrant,

00:04:55.120 whether you were told to execute it as a no-knock warrant,

00:04:59.400 and what actually happened when you arrived

00:05:01.660 at the apartment that day.

00:05:02.600 This would become a big bone of contention

00:05:04.140 amongst all parties.

00:05:06.180 So, first, just explain what a no-knock warrant is.

00:05:09.040 The no-knock warrant is,

00:05:10.460 number one, it's not real easy to get.

00:05:12.160 You've got to show the reasons for it

00:05:14.720 as far as the dangers

00:05:16.300 that the individual might pose

00:05:19.340 to the police or the public

00:05:20.880 or the destruction of evidence

00:05:22.500 and the reasons for it,

00:05:24.060 whether, you know, in his criminal history

00:05:26.120 or her criminal history,

00:05:27.160 what the background is.

00:05:28.440 So, it has to meet certain criteria.

00:05:30.720 And as far as Glover went,

00:05:32.840 it met the criteria.

00:05:33.760 And due to the fact that he came

00:05:35.580 and went from Breonna Taylor's house

00:05:37.280 on a frequent basis,

00:05:38.820 the fact that he had all his stuff

00:05:40.580 registered to her house

00:05:41.760 as far as his cell phone, his vehicle,

00:05:43.860 his mail went there, his bank account.

00:05:46.240 When she had bonded him out of jail

00:05:48.060 a couple months previous,

00:05:49.320 they used that address as his.

00:05:51.320 So, all that stuff tied Glover to her residence.

00:05:54.880 And so, the no-knock was gathered

00:05:57.020 just in case he happened to be

00:05:58.880 at that house that night.

00:06:00.520 They had a tracker and a ping on his phone,

00:06:03.680 tracker on his car and a ping on his phone.

00:06:04.980 So, they knew where he was.

00:06:06.020 So, when they determined that night

00:06:07.600 that he wasn't going to be at that residence,

00:06:09.380 when they could see the way he was going,

00:06:12.100 they changed that warrant out of the five

00:06:14.660 from a no-knock to a knock and announce.

00:06:17.560 And so, that's what we did.

00:06:18.560 We went up and they asked us

00:06:20.200 specifically to give it additional time

00:06:22.240 than we normally give a knock and announce

00:06:23.860 due to the fact that

00:06:25.660 they knew Glover wasn't there

00:06:27.280 and they wanted her to cooperate

00:06:29.040 later on down the road.

00:06:31.160 And they didn't anticipate

00:06:32.180 Kenneth Walker being in there

00:06:34.080 instead of Glover,

00:06:35.640 the man they understood to be her boyfriend.

00:06:39.420 Okay.

00:06:39.860 So, when they say knock and announce,

00:06:41.580 how is that normally executed?

00:06:45.300 So, what you do is you go up to the door

00:06:46.640 and you knock on the door

00:06:48.200 and you announce yourself as the police

00:06:49.940 just so the people inside know who you are.

00:06:52.140 And that's for their safety and for ours

00:06:53.900 because it is a very...

00:06:56.540 When you barge your way into someone's house

00:06:59.840 and they don't know you're the police,

00:07:01.500 they think they're getting robbed

00:07:02.520 or, you know, a lot of things can go sideways.

00:07:05.200 And so, what you do is you go,

00:07:07.420 you knock and announce

00:07:08.260 and you give what the Supreme Court says

00:07:09.800 a reasonable amount of time,

00:07:11.280 which was always between five and ten seconds

00:07:13.760 generally is what we give people

00:07:15.060 to come to the door.

00:07:16.220 Our policy now states

00:07:17.180 that you have to give ten seconds.

00:07:19.080 But that's still,

00:07:20.040 when you're at a door knocking,

00:07:21.180 that seems like a long time,

00:07:22.460 even though ten seconds isn't a lot.

00:07:24.560 But that night, we gave between 45 seconds

00:07:27.560 and a minute.

00:07:28.740 We just extended the time.

00:07:30.400 We were trying to be courteous

00:07:31.480 and do what we were asked to do.

00:07:34.840 And in hindsight, that was a mistake.

00:07:37.480 Yes, I heard you say

00:07:38.720 in the one interview you gave,

00:07:40.580 in this case,

00:07:41.360 right when it happened on GMA,

00:07:43.240 which we'll talk about in a minute,

00:07:44.700 that you believe that was

00:07:46.180 the biggest mistake of the night,

00:07:47.840 giving too much time

00:07:48.960 before you just...

00:07:50.940 I mean, did you ram in the door?

00:07:52.220 How did you get the door open?

00:07:53.060 Yeah, after about a minute

00:07:55.220 of knocking and announcing,

00:07:56.600 we didn't have any response

00:07:58.680 as far as them coming to the door

00:07:59.820 and letting us in.

00:08:00.520 So at some point,

00:08:01.200 you've got to take action.

00:08:02.720 You've got to move.

00:08:03.840 Because the whole goal

00:08:04.860 in doing these warrants simultaneously,

00:08:07.060 because one of the things

00:08:08.520 that's out there

00:08:09.040 is that Glover had been arrested

00:08:10.180 the day before,

00:08:11.000 earlier in the day.

00:08:11.960 That's not true.

00:08:12.960 He was arrested at the same time

00:08:14.360 that we were serving this warrant.

00:08:15.620 And the whole reason being

00:08:16.600 was because you didn't want information

00:08:19.140 to get back to Breonna Taylor's apartment

00:08:21.220 so they could destroy evidence on the case.

00:08:23.640 So when we go up there,

00:08:25.360 finally the ram,

00:08:26.380 we use a ram,

00:08:27.100 which is a heavy tool

00:08:28.400 that bangs the door.

00:08:30.740 It took three hits on the door

00:08:32.640 for it to finally come open.

00:08:34.460 And when it did,

00:08:35.620 that's when we met them.

00:08:37.100 And the reason you don't want

00:08:38.960 to give them that much time

00:08:39.920 is for the very thing

00:08:41.220 that happened that night.

00:08:42.280 When you're forcing your way

00:08:43.600 into a house,

00:08:44.380 you want to have

00:08:45.060 the psychological advantage.

00:08:46.360 You want to have

00:08:46.940 that overwhelming presence

00:08:48.080 of, man, what's going on?

00:08:49.960 The confusion factor

00:08:51.120 works in your benefit

00:08:52.520 in this case

00:08:53.260 because it doesn't give

00:08:54.560 the individual

00:08:55.440 on the other side

00:08:56.120 time to get a weapon,

00:08:57.840 time to get up.

00:08:58.440 In this case,

00:08:58.940 they had time to get up,

00:08:59.780 get dressed,

00:09:00.920 retrieve his weapon

00:09:01.640 from the nightstand

00:09:02.540 and stand in the hallway

00:09:03.520 just waiting for us.

00:09:05.660 But notably,

00:09:06.600 did not come to the door,

00:09:07.720 did not say

00:09:08.900 who's out there.

00:09:10.820 None of that happened.

00:09:12.200 I mean,

00:09:12.600 who knows how anybody

00:09:13.860 would react,

00:09:14.420 but I can certainly imagine

00:09:15.560 if I actually

00:09:16.320 it has happened to me

00:09:17.080 that the police

00:09:17.600 have knocked on my door

00:09:18.420 and my window

00:09:19.280 in the middle of the night

00:09:20.100 saying police open up

00:09:21.880 and I was scared,

00:09:22.820 you know what, Liz?

00:09:24.040 And this is when

00:09:25.140 I was living in a brownstone

00:09:26.540 in like the basement apartment

00:09:27.600 in New York City

00:09:28.320 and it turned out

00:09:30.600 that there was

00:09:31.640 there was

00:09:32.500 domestic violence

00:09:33.700 situation going on

00:09:35.080 in the top floor

00:09:35.700 of the townhouse

00:09:36.320 and so they were just

00:09:36.880 trying to get in the building.

00:09:38.280 But it was scary

00:09:39.060 but what I did was

00:09:41.140 I went over to the buzzer

00:09:42.540 and I buzzed them in

00:09:43.380 because I could see

00:09:44.260 that they were police.

00:09:45.080 I saw the,

00:09:45.880 you know,

00:09:46.020 you could see the uniforms,

00:09:46.860 you could see the lights,

00:09:47.580 you know,

00:09:48.420 there's a way of telling

00:09:49.700 whether this is a legitimate cop,

00:09:51.380 some weird guy standing there

00:09:52.720 or five,

00:09:53.520 six guys in uniform,

00:09:55.260 you know,

00:09:55.760 with guns and flashlights

00:09:56.980 who look like police.

00:09:58.860 So that didn't happen.

00:10:00.800 No, it didn't.

00:10:01.580 And that was one

00:10:02.040 of the contentions too.

00:10:03.040 You know,

00:10:03.400 they kept using the word,

00:10:04.600 well,

00:10:04.700 they were in their,

00:10:05.540 they were in street clothes,

00:10:06.520 they were in plain clothes.

00:10:07.860 Well,

00:10:08.140 technically that's accurate

00:10:09.440 but we had vest on

00:10:11.060 that said police clearly on it.

00:10:13.060 We were announcing ourself.

00:10:14.540 We had the rest of our weapons.

00:10:15.580 We had badges out.

00:10:16.900 So the misconception of,

00:10:18.880 oh,

00:10:18.940 they were in plain clothes

00:10:20.020 so they didn't know

00:10:20.580 they were the police

00:10:21.240 is actually inaccurate

00:10:22.520 because what we had on

00:10:23.820 was more visible

00:10:24.700 than if I'd walked up

00:10:25.720 in just a typical police uniform

00:10:27.400 with a small badge

00:10:28.460 on the front of it.

00:10:30.140 So we identified ourself

00:10:32.140 and that's just been

00:10:33.480 totally taken out of context

00:10:35.140 and politicians used it

00:10:36.700 to get bills passed

00:10:37.680 that they had wanted to.

00:10:38.960 So a lot of people

00:10:39.700 took advantage of

00:10:40.620 the false narrative

00:10:41.620 that was spun.

00:10:43.100 So the,

00:10:44.060 and we will get to this too

00:10:45.480 but it should be noted

00:10:46.800 that your police department,

00:10:48.020 your mayor,

00:10:48.820 no one was standing up

00:10:49.740 for you guys.

00:10:50.260 No one was trying

00:10:51.000 to correct the record.

00:10:52.360 All this misinformation

00:10:53.080 was being put out there

00:10:54.300 and the media ran with it

00:10:55.880 and the guys

00:10:57.200 who are supposed

00:10:57.520 to be protecting you,

00:10:58.380 you're not allowed

00:10:58.980 to speak.

00:11:00.180 Investigations are going on.

00:11:01.400 You're not allowed

00:11:01.900 to say anything

00:11:02.380 and you shouldn't say anything

00:11:03.640 but those around you

00:11:04.400 should try to be

00:11:04.960 correcting the record

00:11:05.780 and they weren't,

00:11:07.480 I believe,

00:11:08.140 because they were partisans

00:11:09.480 who were too afraid

00:11:10.460 to stand up

00:11:11.060 on your behalf.

00:11:13.100 So you walk

00:11:14.740 into the building,

00:11:15.280 into the apartment

00:11:16.400 and how many cops

00:11:17.720 are there?

00:11:18.220 There's you

00:11:18.620 and who else?

00:11:19.780 There's seven of us

00:11:20.740 total.

00:11:22.000 Inside the Brianna

00:11:22.960 in Taylor's apartment.

00:11:24.260 Well, we never made it inside.

00:11:25.940 We were in the doorway

00:11:27.420 in the walk breezeway area

00:11:28.960 of the eight plex

00:11:30.420 and there was seven

00:11:33.940 of us outside,

00:11:34.720 one to the right knocking,

00:11:36.040 myself on the left

00:11:36.960 with a couple guys behind me

00:11:38.260 and then where the other guys

00:11:39.800 could fit in by the stairway

00:11:41.060 and so we never made it in.

00:11:43.360 Once the door was breached

00:11:44.620 or came open,

00:11:45.960 I cleared from outside

00:11:47.740 visually what I could see

00:11:48.960 from right to left

00:11:49.920 in the living room.

00:11:51.940 I remember the couches,

00:11:52.820 the colors

00:11:53.380 and as soon as I stepped

00:11:55.320 into the frame of the door

00:11:57.760 before I made entry in,

00:11:59.720 I encountered Kenneth Walker

00:12:01.260 and Brianna Taylor

00:12:02.020 about 25, 30 feet

00:12:03.480 down the hallway

00:12:04.060 and he was already

00:12:05.420 in a shooter stance

00:12:06.420 and as soon as my body

00:12:07.940 cleared in that open area,

00:12:09.720 he fired around

00:12:10.840 and all we could do

00:12:12.140 was return fire

00:12:12.980 and try to get out of the way.

00:12:15.400 Had you ever had anybody

00:12:16.240 shoot their gun at you

00:12:17.220 prior while on the force?

00:12:19.160 You'd been on what,

00:12:19.900 23 years at that point?

00:12:21.840 Yeah, 21 years

00:12:22.700 and yeah,

00:12:23.640 I've had a few.

00:12:25.280 The closest one I had

00:12:26.440 was back in 2010.

00:12:28.080 I was serving

00:12:28.520 a search warrant then

00:12:29.440 and when I went

00:12:30.860 to open the screen door,

00:12:32.320 we yanked it,

00:12:33.120 I yanked it

00:12:33.960 and the handle broke off

00:12:35.000 and as I stepped back

00:12:36.440 so the ram guy

00:12:37.160 could hit the door,

00:12:38.040 someone shot through the door

00:12:39.200 and went right past my head.

00:12:41.880 The glass cut me

00:12:42.760 but we couldn't see

00:12:45.020 back in this house.

00:12:46.140 We had no visual targets

00:12:47.660 so we didn't return fire.

00:12:48.900 We retreated

00:12:49.600 and called the suspect out

00:12:51.300 and subsequently

00:12:52.620 he went to prison

00:12:53.680 for several years

00:12:54.820 over this

00:12:55.380 and Kenneth Walker

00:12:56.460 didn't on this case.

00:12:57.320 In fact,

00:12:59.100 they dropped all charges

00:12:59.860 against him.

00:13:00.740 So all you know

00:13:02.040 is you've been shot at

00:13:03.260 and what could you see

00:13:04.120 down the hallway?

00:13:05.100 How far away

00:13:06.300 were the bodies,

00:13:08.160 the figures

00:13:08.540 that you were looking at

00:13:09.500 and what could you

00:13:10.340 make out of them?

00:13:11.740 So it was about

00:13:12.200 25, 30 feet

00:13:13.420 and it was something

00:13:14.800 totally different

00:13:15.380 than I'd ever encountered

00:13:16.320 on any search warrant.

00:13:18.220 You know,

00:13:18.400 I've done,

00:13:19.360 we've tried to calculate

00:13:20.640 around 2,000 search warrants

00:13:22.080 where I've made entry

00:13:22.840 and on this one

00:13:24.580 generally people

00:13:25.440 are either running

00:13:26.140 or they're there

00:13:27.040 giving up

00:13:27.720 or they're in another room

00:13:29.140 hiding,

00:13:29.760 something to that effect.

00:13:31.420 I've encountered

00:13:32.100 a few with guns

00:13:32.940 that had to make

00:13:33.900 split second decisions

00:13:35.260 and fortunately

00:13:35.800 for both of us

00:13:36.720 it didn't turn out

00:13:37.740 like this situation

00:13:38.560 where they actually

00:13:39.240 dropped their gun

00:13:40.000 or they surrendered

00:13:41.320 and this one

00:13:42.560 when I turned the corner

00:13:43.220 all I could see

00:13:43.960 was down the hall

00:13:44.740 a larger figure

00:13:45.880 to my right

00:13:47.780 which was the left

00:13:48.420 of the hall

00:13:48.900 but to my right

00:13:49.780 was a larger figure

00:13:50.660 and right next to him

00:13:51.980 almost in the same

00:13:53.320 was a smaller figure

00:13:54.300 and I had never seen that

00:13:56.380 so my mind

00:13:57.180 your brain is working

00:13:58.500 so quick

00:13:59.340 I saw this

00:13:59.980 and was like

00:14:00.380 something's not

00:14:01.720 something's off

00:14:02.560 you know

00:14:02.860 but by that time

00:14:03.540 everything's happening

00:14:04.320 it's so quick

00:14:05.060 it's too late

00:14:05.820 and so they were

00:14:07.440 almost like one person

00:14:08.800 and what you can't tell

00:14:10.320 by what you've heard

00:14:11.780 in the accounts given

00:14:13.100 was there's a wall

00:14:14.640 that the hallway

00:14:16.480 was super narrow

00:14:17.300 it was a more narrow

00:14:18.280 hallway than most

00:14:19.480 and on the side

00:14:21.280 where Kenneth Walker

00:14:22.020 was standing

00:14:22.460 was an insect

00:14:23.720 and as soon as he shot

00:14:25.800 he dove out of the way 0.95

00:14:26.860 and unfortunately

00:14:28.280 Brianna tried to follow him

00:14:29.820 into the other bedroom

00:14:31.180 oh wow

00:14:32.480 oh I didn't realize

00:14:33.620 because he shot

00:14:34.700 one bullet

00:14:36.040 and then dove

00:14:36.960 out of eyesight

00:14:39.000 and left her there 0.67

00:14:40.480 oh my god

00:14:42.340 the

00:14:43.620 because first of all

00:14:44.440 if you think

00:14:44.960 somebody's breaking

00:14:45.660 into your house

00:14:46.320 as a man

00:14:46.900 are you going to tell

00:14:47.940 your girlfriend

00:14:48.360 to come

00:14:48.820 with you

00:14:49.820 or would you say

00:14:51.000 you call the police

00:14:52.200 and stay in here

00:14:52.900 I'll go check it out

00:14:53.920 yes

00:14:54.520 do not come out

00:14:55.280 in the hallway

00:14:55.660 yeah

00:14:56.600 I don't understand

00:14:57.500 the logic behind it

00:14:58.560 because I remember

00:14:58.960 when I woke up

00:14:59.520 from surgery

00:15:00.120 one of the first things

00:15:01.540 I asked my wife

00:15:02.220 I said was

00:15:02.720 man I would love

00:15:03.900 to sit down

00:15:04.800 and talk to him

00:15:05.460 and ask him why

00:15:06.300 why were y'all

00:15:07.220 like that

00:15:07.680 that just blew my mind

00:15:09.520 because you know

00:15:10.500 after 21 years

00:15:11.340 you think you've seen

00:15:11.920 everything

00:15:12.240 and then something

00:15:13.200 new pops up

00:15:13.900 and you're like

00:15:14.320 that just didn't

00:15:15.340 make sense to me

00:15:16.120 right

00:15:16.740 they don't normally

00:15:17.380 run out into harm's way

00:15:18.760 with their girlfriend

00:15:19.400 by their side

00:15:20.180 and so

00:15:21.880 did you know

00:15:23.240 immediately

00:15:23.620 you'd been shot

00:15:24.360 that may be a dumb question

00:15:25.580 but you know

00:15:26.620 did you feel it

00:15:27.280 no I knew immediately

00:15:29.560 I was able to return fire

00:15:31.400 and then when I stepped back

00:15:32.640 out of the doorway

00:15:33.820 is when I reached down

00:15:35.280 and felt

00:15:35.760 and I could feel

00:15:36.320 a handful of blood

00:15:37.240 and I knew leg wounds

00:15:38.920 typically don't bleed

00:15:39.820 a whole lot

00:15:40.440 unless you hit an artery

00:15:41.340 so I even announced

00:15:43.300 right there at the doorway

00:15:44.220 to the guys

00:15:44.860 that I've been hit

00:15:45.660 in my artery

00:15:46.800 and so it was

00:15:48.880 it was a surreal situation

00:15:50.520 that is 100%

00:15:52.220 a potentially fatal injury

00:15:54.120 there's zero question

00:15:55.300 you get you get shot

00:15:56.080 in your femoral artery

00:15:56.980 you could be dead soon

00:15:57.980 unless you get immediate

00:15:59.120 medical attention

00:16:00.560 and is your understanding

00:16:03.000 when you've been shot

00:16:04.600 or shot at

00:16:05.400 as a police officer

00:16:06.380 because we have

00:16:07.100 a lot of these debates

00:16:08.020 you you shoot to kill 0.65

00:16:10.500 do you not

00:16:10.980 I mean you

00:16:11.340 people say like

00:16:12.400 well you could shoot

00:16:13.420 to wound

00:16:14.080 you could you know

00:16:15.060 speak to that

00:16:16.440 what we're taught

00:16:16.940 what we're taught

00:16:17.660 is to shoot

00:16:18.120 to stop the threat

00:16:19.000 regardless of what that is

00:16:20.360 if it's one shot

00:16:21.700 and they give up

00:16:22.360 and we miss

00:16:22.880 or if you have to do

00:16:24.460 repeated shots

00:16:25.240 to stop the threat

00:16:26.200 from coming at you

00:16:27.080 or coming at the public

00:16:28.120 then that's what you do

00:16:29.560 because it's not like TV

00:16:30.800 where you know

00:16:31.640 you get shot in the leg

00:16:32.720 and you just fall down

00:16:33.840 or you know

00:16:34.680 even a shot to the head

00:16:36.120 I mean we've seen

00:16:36.800 that repeatedly

00:16:37.420 where people just keep

00:16:38.340 fighting and going

00:16:39.280 so you do

00:16:40.680 whatever it takes

00:16:41.280 to stop the threat

00:16:42.140 and if that

00:16:42.560 if that means death

00:16:43.800 then that means death

00:16:44.760 but you know

00:16:45.780 we hope for the best outcome

00:16:47.060 but it's a

00:16:48.200 it's an ugly business

00:16:49.160 so when you

00:16:50.980 when you didn't fire

00:16:52.560 until you heard

00:16:54.060 his gun go off

00:16:54.940 correct

00:16:56.160 and so how many

00:16:57.780 I could see the flash

00:16:58.480 I could see the muzzle

00:16:59.280 feel the impact

00:17:00.060 and

00:17:00.320 yeah because

00:17:01.500 now the book says

00:17:02.140 12 seconds

00:17:02.780 but how many seconds

00:17:03.660 from the

00:17:04.020 would you say

00:17:04.840 from that point

00:17:06.160 to you know

00:17:07.500 during the

00:17:08.220 all of you guys

00:17:09.000 returning fire

00:17:09.740 and the two of them

00:17:10.460 trying to jump

00:17:11.200 out of the way

00:17:12.960 into these

00:17:13.560 this bedroom

00:17:14.200 I think

00:17:15.820 well 12 seconds

00:17:16.960 is about the time

00:17:17.780 from when

00:17:18.160 until I was

00:17:20.260 in the parking lot

00:17:21.560 and

00:17:21.940 and my lieutenant

00:17:22.740 grabbed my vest

00:17:23.600 dragging me out

00:17:24.340 so they could get

00:17:24.780 the tourniquet on

00:17:25.500 so

00:17:26.320 I would say

00:17:27.480 the gunfire itself

00:17:28.440 though lasted

00:17:28.960 maybe

00:17:29.360 entirely

00:17:30.780 8-10 seconds

00:17:32.300 and I'm sorry

00:17:33.820 you faded out

00:17:34.380 when you said

00:17:34.860 12 seconds

00:17:35.400 was the time

00:17:35.940 that you said

00:17:36.360 12 seconds

00:17:36.960 was the time

00:17:37.540 from what

00:17:38.060 to you being

00:17:38.960 in the parking lot

00:17:39.540 from the time

00:17:40.920 the door was

00:17:41.600 actually knocked

00:17:42.220 open

00:17:42.580 until the time

00:17:43.620 I was

00:17:43.980 began

00:17:44.780 someone would

00:17:45.740 grab me

00:17:46.120 to help

00:17:46.960 treat me

00:17:47.580 help treat

00:17:48.100 the woman 0.98

00:17:48.440 so fast

00:17:49.880 it all

00:17:50.740 was

00:17:51.120 extremely

00:17:52.100 quickly

00:17:52.540 so fast

00:17:53.760 okay so now

00:17:54.380 you're out

00:17:54.760 getting treatment

00:17:55.300 and

00:17:56.340 Kenneth Walker

00:17:57.180 who was there

00:17:58.180 with Brianna Taylor

00:17:58.860 that night

00:17:59.340 who lived

00:17:59.840 was he shot

00:18:00.980 at all

00:18:01.360 no he was not

00:18:02.860 he was fine

00:18:03.780 okay she took

00:18:04.560 six bullets

00:18:05.180 the coroner

00:18:06.580 determined that

00:18:07.200 it was one of

00:18:07.700 your fellow

00:18:08.120 officers

00:18:08.580 gun that

00:18:09.300 fired the fatal

00:18:09.960 shot

00:18:10.360 I mean I

00:18:11.500 don't know if

00:18:11.920 that necessarily

00:18:13.200 matters but you

00:18:14.180 know all the

00:18:14.500 officers were

00:18:14.960 returning fire

00:18:15.600 at that point

00:18:16.100 they felt like

00:18:17.000 they were under

00:18:17.520 lethal threat

00:18:18.540 she was not

00:18:20.100 armed

00:18:20.360 it should be

00:18:20.800 noted

00:18:21.020 but it was

00:18:22.480 difficult to

00:18:22.960 see what

00:18:23.260 was what

00:18:23.560 in that

00:18:23.820 dark

00:18:24.400 hallway

00:18:24.780 and

00:18:25.520 Kenneth Walker

00:18:27.440 called 911

00:18:28.160 and this is

00:18:29.660 what that

00:18:30.560 call sounded

00:18:31.260 like

00:18:31.520 take a listen

00:18:32.100 9-1-1

00:18:34.280 operator Harris

00:18:35.020 where is

00:18:35.320 your emergency

00:18:35.880 I don't

00:18:37.560 know what's

00:18:38.640 happening

00:18:39.040 somebody

00:18:39.540 kicked in

00:18:40.300 the door

00:18:40.700 and shot

00:18:41.240 my girlfriend

00:18:41.920 oh my god

00:18:44.380 can you check

00:18:45.760 and see where

00:18:46.220 she's been

00:18:46.600 shot at

00:18:47.120 so that was

00:19:05.720 released to the

00:19:06.200 media and

00:19:07.280 helped create

00:19:07.940 the narrative

00:19:08.440 of Kenneth

00:19:09.220 Walker being

00:19:09.920 an innocent

00:19:10.540 victim of

00:19:11.600 these overly

00:19:12.460 aggressive cops

00:19:13.340 who burst in

00:19:14.300 there scared

00:19:14.840 him and killed

00:19:15.500 his girlfriend

00:19:15.940 what did you

00:19:16.800 make of that

00:19:17.200 call

00:19:17.440 let me frame

00:19:19.720 that call

00:19:20.160 first of all

00:19:20.660 that that

00:19:21.100 happened

00:19:21.540 I can't

00:19:24.640 remember if

00:19:24.880 that's eight

00:19:25.400 eight minutes

00:19:26.220 after the

00:19:27.600 six minutes

00:19:28.340 after you

00:19:28.800 write six

00:19:29.240 in your book

00:19:29.720 yeah

00:19:29.940 yeah so six

00:19:31.560 minutes after

00:19:32.000 the entry

00:19:32.320 was made

00:19:32.760 but prior to

00:19:33.820 that the

00:19:34.160 more importantly

00:19:34.940 he had called

00:19:35.500 his mother

00:19:35.920 and one of

00:19:37.680 the officers

00:19:38.200 that is the

00:19:38.840 courtesy officer

00:19:39.520 of that apartment

00:19:40.120 that lives on

00:19:40.800 scene heard

00:19:41.780 the shots

00:19:42.280 came outside

00:19:43.140 and he happened

00:19:44.300 to go to school

00:19:44.780 with Kenneth

00:19:45.140 Walker he knew

00:19:45.780 him personally

00:19:46.340 had his number

00:19:47.820 on his phone

00:19:48.340 they talked

00:19:48.820 all the time

00:19:49.300 he said

00:19:49.680 in that

00:19:49.920 parking lot

00:19:50.540 he also knew

00:19:51.700 Kenneth's mother

00:19:52.340 and Kenneth's

00:19:53.440 mother and father

00:19:54.100 were the first

00:19:54.660 ones on scene

00:19:55.700 on Springfield

00:19:56.580 that night

00:19:57.060 as far as

00:19:58.180 you know

00:19:58.640 victims

00:19:59.100 family

00:19:59.600 they came up

00:20:00.900 to this officer

00:20:01.860 and they said

00:20:02.580 she said

00:20:03.260 Kenny called

00:20:04.420 and said

00:20:05.360 they're at the

00:20:06.020 door

00:20:06.340 and I said

00:20:07.160 who's at the

00:20:07.620 door baby

00:20:08.080 and she said

00:20:08.980 he replied

00:20:09.520 with it's the

00:20:10.440 police

00:20:10.820 I've got to

00:20:11.380 go

00:20:11.600 and he hung

00:20:11.980 up

00:20:12.280 now

00:20:13.100 if that's

00:20:14.280 the case

00:20:14.880 then

00:20:15.600 there's two

00:20:16.500 things here

00:20:17.000 number one

00:20:17.640 the way

00:20:18.240 that was

00:20:18.740 framed

00:20:19.180 says that

00:20:20.380 he knew

00:20:20.860 we were

00:20:21.040 the police

00:20:21.400 when we

00:20:21.660 were knocking

00:20:22.160 but second

00:20:23.340 off

00:20:23.740 if that was

00:20:25.400 misconstrued

00:20:26.280 or taken

00:20:26.680 out of the

00:20:27.080 timeline

00:20:27.540 he still

00:20:28.480 called his

00:20:28.880 mother

00:20:29.120 and talked

00:20:29.520 to her

00:20:29.760 for almost

00:20:30.120 two minutes

00:20:30.560 prior to

00:20:31.040 calling 9-1-1

00:20:32.020 so then

00:20:32.880 when he

00:20:33.060 called 9-1-1

00:20:33.860 he still

00:20:34.300 said

00:20:34.640 I don't

00:20:35.080 know

00:20:35.220 who's

00:20:35.420 at the

00:20:35.660 door

00:20:35.840 somebody's

00:20:36.260 at the

00:20:36.500 door

00:20:36.740 but he

00:20:37.320 had already

00:20:37.720 you know

00:20:38.400 showed his

00:20:38.820 cards at

00:20:39.300 that point

00:20:39.800 but the

00:20:40.880 investigation

00:20:41.280 was a

00:20:42.560 little bit

00:20:42.860 sloppy

00:20:43.240 in that

00:20:43.580 area

00:20:43.820 where there

00:20:44.120 was no

00:20:44.400 follow-up

00:20:45.060 on that

00:20:45.500 to see

00:20:46.120 all right

00:20:46.880 did we

00:20:47.340 miss a

00:20:47.780 phone

00:20:48.080 or did

00:20:48.360 he call

00:20:48.640 from one

00:20:48.940 of Brianna's

00:20:49.520 phones

00:20:49.900 and you

00:20:50.980 know

00:20:51.060 talk to

00:20:51.440 his mom

00:20:51.840 prior to

00:20:52.560 us making

00:20:53.020 entry

00:20:53.380 or was

00:20:54.260 this a

00:20:54.540 conversation

00:20:55.060 that took

00:20:55.480 place

00:20:55.860 after the

00:20:57.060 shooting

00:20:57.460 and he

00:20:57.840 called his

00:20:58.180 mother first

00:20:58.840 you guys

00:21:00.280 did not

00:21:00.600 have body

00:21:01.180 cams on

00:21:01.880 but the

00:21:02.260 local

00:21:02.640 as I

00:21:03.140 understand

00:21:03.560 backup

00:21:04.180 came

00:21:04.640 and they

00:21:05.500 had body

00:21:05.960 cams

00:21:06.420 and they

00:21:06.760 caught in

00:21:07.420 one of

00:21:08.140 many moments

00:21:08.620 they caught

00:21:09.200 kenneth

00:21:10.020 talking about

00:21:11.260 what happened

00:21:12.420 and in

00:21:14.340 this video

00:21:14.820 he's he's

00:21:15.680 blaming

00:21:16.420 Brianna Taylor

00:21:17.500 let's listen

00:21:18.100 to that

00:21:18.360 this is

00:21:18.640 soundbite

00:21:18.920 two

00:21:19.140 how's

00:21:21.080 your girlfriend

00:21:21.440 I don't

00:21:22.480 know

00:21:23.160 inside

00:21:23.740 there's

00:21:24.340 somebody

00:21:24.700 I was

00:21:26.520 banging at

00:21:27.120 the door

00:21:27.500 and she

00:21:27.760 said who

00:21:28.240 is it

00:21:28.740 and the

00:21:28.980 others

00:21:29.140 started

00:21:29.540 shooting

00:21:30.140 no

00:21:30.820 no

00:21:31.340 we

00:21:31.560 down

00:21:31.880 three

00:21:32.240 times

00:21:32.860 please

00:21:33.240 search

00:21:33.500 one

00:21:33.860 there's

00:21:34.900 my

00:21:35.160 what kind

00:21:38.500 of gun

00:21:38.880 did she

00:21:39.200 shoot

00:21:39.600 it's a

00:21:40.560 regular

00:21:41.660 nine

00:21:42.120 millimeter

00:21:42.820 did she

00:21:43.580 shoot or

00:21:43.920 you

00:21:44.080 shoot it

00:21:44.380 my god

00:21:47.640 honestly

00:21:49.120 that's the

00:21:49.940 first time

00:21:50.380 I've heard

00:21:50.700 that sergeant

00:21:51.140 that is

00:21:51.500 that's

00:21:52.780 stunning

00:21:53.040 that there's

00:21:54.340 no dispute

00:21:54.800 that Kenneth

00:21:55.200 Walker shot

00:21:55.940 you

00:21:56.100 there's none

00:21:56.580 right and

00:21:57.340 there he is

00:21:58.000 moments after

00:21:58.760 blaming it

00:21:59.240 on her

00:21:59.540 it just

00:22:00.820 shows his

00:22:01.200 character

00:22:01.580 he lies

00:22:02.380 and he

00:22:03.980 does it

00:22:04.280 with impunity

00:22:04.740 he didn't

00:22:05.400 care

00:22:05.740 all his

00:22:06.580 all of his

00:22:07.700 recorded

00:22:08.540 statements after

00:22:09.320 the fact

00:22:09.760 whether it

00:22:10.060 be in

00:22:10.240 interviews

00:22:10.580 or the

00:22:10.860 police

00:22:11.220 they're all

00:22:11.820 different

00:22:12.140 you know

00:22:12.940 as far as

00:22:13.420 what he

00:22:13.740 did after

00:22:14.180 the shot

00:22:14.640 or how

00:22:15.240 the gun

00:22:15.600 got in

00:22:15.940 the other

00:22:16.220 bedroom

00:22:16.640 or who

00:22:17.080 he thought

00:22:17.560 it was

00:22:18.100 nothing

00:22:19.060 adds up

00:22:19.680 the story

00:22:20.500 kept

00:22:20.760 changing

00:22:21.220 and changing

00:22:21.820 and changing

00:22:22.380 and again

00:22:23.880 the follow

00:22:24.360 through on

00:22:24.820 the investigation

00:22:25.800 on that

00:22:26.360 by the

00:22:26.800 district

00:22:27.340 attorney

00:22:27.760 was just

00:22:28.340 it was

00:22:29.620 pretty weak

00:22:30.140 yeah they

00:22:30.980 weren't

00:22:31.220 interested

00:22:31.540 because the

00:22:32.580 national

00:22:32.900 narrative

00:22:33.240 had gone

00:22:33.700 a different

00:22:34.200 way

00:22:34.500 and it

00:22:35.140 was

00:22:35.520 the way

00:22:36.340 of demonizing

00:22:37.080 the police

00:22:37.840 and no

00:22:38.380 knock warrants

00:22:39.040 and putting

00:22:40.300 Breonna Taylor

00:22:40.940 on 26

00:22:42.060 billboards

00:22:42.520 like Oprah

00:22:42.960 did and

00:22:43.280 for the

00:22:43.500 first time

00:22:43.820 ever in

00:22:44.200 the history

00:22:44.520 of O

00:22:44.800 magazine

00:22:45.100 she loved

00:22:45.480 to see

00:22:45.680 her own

00:22:45.980 face

00:22:46.260 on her

00:22:46.500 magazine

00:22:46.880 she put

00:22:47.720 somebody

00:22:47.980 else

00:22:48.160 on it

00:22:48.460 and that

00:22:48.640 was

00:22:48.760 Breonna Taylor

00:22:49.280 for the

00:22:49.560 first time

00:22:49.900 ever

00:22:50.180 without

00:22:50.740 doing

00:22:50.960 any

00:22:51.120 investigation

00:22:51.520 and we'll

00:22:52.120 get to

00:22:52.440 what her

00:22:52.920 misinformation

00:22:53.540 among

00:22:54.220 others

00:22:54.600 we'll

00:22:55.560 squeeze in

00:22:56.140 a quick

00:22:58.340 and we'll

00:22:58.560 talk about

00:22:59.000 the smear

00:23:00.140 campaign

00:23:00.580 that was

00:23:01.080 then unleashed

00:23:01.560 against you

00:23:02.160 your family

00:23:02.980 the danger

00:23:03.700 you were put

00:23:04.160 in

00:23:04.380 and the

00:23:05.120 absolute

00:23:05.620 dereliction

00:23:06.720 of duty

00:23:07.060 when it

00:23:07.340 came to

00:23:07.680 going after

00:23:08.500 the man

00:23:08.740 who shot

00:23:09.100 you

00:23:09.300 they had

00:23:10.260 zero

00:23:10.680 interest

00:23:11.160 in any

00:23:12.020 of that

00:23:12.280 stand by

00:23:12.800 we'll pay

00:23:13.620 a bill

00:23:13.840 we'll get

00:23:14.060 right back

00:23:14.380 to you

00:23:15.800 here with

00:23:22.540 me now

00:23:22.860 John Mattingly

00:23:23.540 former

00:23:24.040 Louisville

00:23:24.540 Kentucky

00:23:25.160 police

00:23:25.600 sergeant

00:23:26.020 and author

00:23:26.860 of the

00:23:27.180 new book

00:23:27.660 12 seconds

00:23:28.780 in the

00:23:29.200 dark

00:23:29.520 a police

00:23:30.420 officer's

00:23:30.960 first-hand

00:23:31.500 account

00:23:31.820 of the

00:23:32.140 Breonna

00:23:32.420 Taylor

00:23:32.740 raid

00:23:33.080 the book

00:23:33.780 is currently

00:23:34.140 number one

00:23:34.820 on Amazon's

00:23:35.880 new releases

00:23:36.720 in media

00:23:37.840 and politics

00:23:38.600 list

00:23:38.900 and please

00:23:39.420 help keep

00:23:39.960 it there

00:23:40.360 because this

00:23:40.980 is one of

00:23:41.340 those books

00:23:41.900 that Simon

00:23:42.920 and Schuster

00:23:43.500 I understand

00:23:44.340 had agreed

00:23:44.880 to publish

00:23:45.460 and then

00:23:46.540 they got

00:23:47.220 too afraid

00:23:47.760 and they

00:23:48.320 pulled it

00:23:48.840 and the

00:23:49.620 Daily Wire

00:23:50.120 picked it up

00:23:50.700 and is

00:23:50.980 publishing it

00:23:51.480 is that

00:23:51.700 correct

00:23:51.920 John

00:23:52.200 it's

00:23:53.060 correct

00:23:53.340 it's

00:23:54.160 amazing

00:23:54.460 thank God

00:23:54.920 for Ben

00:23:55.340 and Jeremy

00:23:55.900 Boring

00:23:56.240 and the

00:23:56.580 guys at

00:23:56.980 Daily Wire

00:23:57.460 and what

00:23:58.860 cowards at

00:23:59.740 Simon & Schuster

00:24:00.420 what cowards

00:24:01.460 I mean right

00:24:02.280 now like this

00:24:02.980 all that kind

00:24:03.720 of decision

00:24:04.140 must have

00:24:04.780 happened 12

00:24:05.460 months ago

00:24:06.000 in order you

00:24:06.900 know the way

00:24:07.140 books work

00:24:07.640 but you know

00:24:08.700 the climate

00:24:09.300 on police

00:24:09.760 has changed

00:24:10.320 considerably

00:24:10.880 since they're

00:24:11.600 cowardice

00:24:12.220 it has

00:24:12.980 people are

00:24:13.420 realizing how

00:24:13.880 important police

00:24:14.480 are and what

00:24:15.480 happens when you

00:24:16.160 unfairly demonize

00:24:17.240 them city after

00:24:17.880 city and defund

00:24:18.780 them something

00:24:19.660 the black

00:24:20.060 community was

00:24:20.580 never in favor

00:24:21.160 of only

00:24:21.840 this weird

00:24:23.280 organization

00:24:23.760 black lives

00:24:24.240 matter which

00:24:24.640 we now

00:24:24.880 know has

00:24:25.180 been committing

00:24:25.900 fraud state

00:24:26.540 after state

00:24:26.940 or accused

00:24:27.380 of and

00:24:28.520 and white

00:24:29.720 Upper West

00:24:30.180 Side liberals

00:24:30.700 women in 0.62

00:24:31.720 Lululemon who

00:24:32.420 go out there

00:24:32.780 and protest

00:24:33.120 the cops

00:24:33.480 and try to

00:24:33.800 take away

00:24:34.220 the funding

00:24:35.240 for people

00:24:35.640 who are

00:24:35.860 keeping

00:24:36.120 inner cities

00:24:36.580 safe

00:24:36.960 that's why

00:24:37.420 it's all

00:24:37.660 getting reversed

00:24:38.260 city after

00:24:38.860 city but

00:24:39.320 anyway

00:24:39.640 the book's

00:24:41.380 not by

00:24:41.700 Simon & Schuster

00:24:42.260 it's by

00:24:42.540 Daily Wire

00:24:43.020 support John

00:24:43.680 support the

00:24:44.020 Daily Wire

00:24:44.360 by the book

00:24:45.040 couple things

00:24:46.840 so Hankinson

00:24:48.700 is that how you

00:24:50.880 pronounce his last

00:24:51.360 name Hankinson

00:24:51.900 yes

00:24:52.920 okay he's your

00:24:54.140 fellow officer

00:24:54.680 he's the only

00:24:55.220 guy who was

00:24:55.680 charged with

00:24:57.420 three counts of

00:24:58.040 felony wanted

00:24:58.660 endangerment for

00:24:59.540 firing his gun

00:25:00.360 once he heard

00:25:00.840 the gunshots and

00:25:01.620 thought you were

00:25:02.000 in danger and

00:25:03.380 the theory was

00:25:04.440 maybe he endangered

00:25:05.120 some folks in

00:25:05.960 the next apartment

00:25:07.320 by firing without

00:25:09.520 enough care and

00:25:11.420 he was just

00:25:12.060 acquitted at the

00:25:13.000 beginning of March

00:25:13.600 days ago

00:25:14.820 during the trial

00:25:18.000 he was asked

00:25:18.980 about you John

00:25:20.040 and we have a

00:25:21.100 bit of that

00:25:21.500 testimony here

00:25:22.420 he is

00:25:22.740 I knew Sergeant

00:25:24.680 Mattingly was

00:25:25.180 down and I

00:25:26.280 knew I knew

00:25:30.040 they were trying

00:25:30.600 to get to him

00:25:31.360 and it appeared

00:25:34.020 to me that

00:25:34.800 they were being

00:25:36.960 executed with

00:25:37.780 this rifle

00:25:38.240 so what did

00:25:43.420 you do

00:25:43.880 I returned

00:25:46.840 fire through

00:25:48.420 excuse me

00:25:49.780 through the

00:25:50.300 sliding glass

00:25:50.760 door

00:25:51.100 and that

00:25:55.020 did not

00:25:55.340 stop the

00:25:55.800 threat

00:25:56.040 I thought

00:25:56.740 that if I

00:25:57.080 could get to

00:25:57.460 that bedroom

00:25:57.900 window I

00:25:59.000 could put rounds

00:25:59.680 through that

00:26:00.220 bedroom window

00:26:00.940 and stop the

00:26:01.920 shooter who

00:26:03.140 from the last

00:26:04.640 place I had eyes

00:26:05.900 on them which

00:26:06.480 was seconds

00:26:07.640 before that

00:26:08.240 are you able

00:26:09.320 to estimate

00:26:09.840 how long it

00:26:10.580 was from the

00:26:11.160 time the first

00:26:12.400 shot that struck

00:26:13.200 Sergeant Mattingly

00:26:14.160 until your last

00:26:14.960 shot

00:26:15.300 I would say

00:26:19.540 somewhere

00:26:19.960 between five

00:26:22.240 and ten

00:26:22.540 seconds

00:26:22.960 that's got to

00:26:25.660 be hard to

00:26:26.080 hear how

00:26:26.780 emotional he

00:26:27.320 gets talking

00:26:27.760 about what

00:26:28.100 happened to

00:26:28.540 you and

00:26:30.260 and just

00:26:30.700 what all

00:26:31.200 all of you

00:26:31.680 guys have

00:26:32.000 been through

00:26:32.420 the police

00:26:33.140 officers pain

00:26:33.940 gets completely

00:26:35.040 discounted the

00:26:36.320 pain to your

00:26:36.720 families and the

00:26:37.620 death threats

00:26:38.060 that you've had

00:26:38.460 to deal with

00:26:39.000 no one cares

00:26:40.360 they only care

00:26:41.400 about one

00:26:41.780 narrative which

00:26:42.460 is you are

00:26:43.940 the you are

00:26:44.720 the evil ones

00:26:45.420 you are the

00:26:46.300 criminals

00:26:46.760 right I'm an

00:26:48.660 evil white cop

00:26:49.520 that's what it

00:26:50.160 is who's willing

00:26:51.140 to die for the

00:26:51.980 black community

00:26:52.580 for people I

00:26:53.200 don't know or

00:26:53.560 hate me so it

00:26:54.540 makes me racist

00:26:55.240 somehow

00:26:55.680 I mean he's

00:26:58.340 been through it

00:26:58.920 he's he was

00:26:59.400 acquitted one

00:27:00.940 of the statements

00:27:01.640 that came out

00:27:02.560 caught my eye

00:27:03.700 one of the

00:27:04.520 lawyers for

00:27:05.020 Kenneth Walker

00:27:05.620 who again all

00:27:06.800 charges were

00:27:07.240 dropped against

00:27:07.700 Kenneth Walker

00:27:08.220 we'll get to

00:27:08.600 that but one

00:27:10.020 of his lawyers

00:27:10.500 said this

00:27:11.460 was not

00:27:11.740 justice for

00:27:12.220 Breonna Taylor

00:27:12.740 or for

00:27:13.360 Kenneth Walker

00:27:14.000 Kenneth Walker

00:27:15.400 was assaulted

00:27:16.720 by the state

00:27:17.780 and lives among

00:27:19.000 us devoid of

00:27:19.740 apology or

00:27:20.440 recognition for

00:27:21.120 the harm done

00:27:22.580 to him

00:27:23.580 your reaction

00:27:24.840 to that

00:27:25.180 always the

00:27:27.640 victim I

00:27:28.440 mean isn't

00:27:29.060 that the

00:27:29.380 mantra of

00:27:30.060 the day

00:27:30.740 nobody takes

00:27:31.380 responsibility

00:27:31.920 for actions

00:27:32.760 I mean we'll

00:27:33.900 we've admitted

00:27:34.900 the few errors

00:27:36.300 we've made

00:27:36.860 that maybe

00:27:37.480 could have

00:27:38.080 changed the

00:27:38.940 outcome of

00:27:39.480 this or

00:27:39.840 some of

00:27:40.080 the things

00:27:40.460 afterwards

00:27:41.000 that were

00:27:41.540 done

00:27:42.220 incorrectly

00:27:42.740 but not

00:27:43.860 once has

00:27:44.620 responsibility

00:27:45.680 been taken

00:27:46.520 by Kenneth

00:27:47.980 it's everybody

00:27:49.440 else's fault

00:27:50.300 you know it's

00:27:51.100 he's the one

00:27:51.860 that was in

00:27:52.180 the drug game

00:27:52.800 he's the one

00:27:53.500 that talked

00:27:54.320 about in

00:27:55.660 his phone

00:27:56.400 doing home

00:27:57.840 invasions on

00:27:58.500 people so

00:27:59.140 somehow that

00:28:00.360 makes us

00:28:01.060 the bad guy

00:28:02.120 though and

00:28:02.560 he didn't get

00:28:03.200 his justice

00:28:03.860 although he's

00:28:05.000 not facing

00:28:05.540 jail time

00:28:06.160 he hasn't

00:28:07.040 faced scrutiny

00:28:07.800 from her

00:28:09.700 family that

00:28:10.280 I know of

00:28:10.900 for leaving

00:28:11.900 her and

00:28:12.260 putting her

00:28:12.540 in a situation

00:28:13.200 that was

00:28:13.580 just unwinnable

00:28:14.740 right you

00:28:16.340 want to talk

00:28:16.660 about want

00:28:17.320 and endangerment

00:28:18.120 why didn't

00:28:18.820 he face that

00:28:19.360 charge with

00:28:20.080 respect to

00:28:20.480 Breonna's

00:28:20.900 death at

00:28:21.920 least and

00:28:23.080 and he

00:28:23.480 faced no

00:28:23.920 charges for

00:28:24.460 shooting you 0.98

00:28:25.300 because the

00:28:25.720 narrative was

00:28:26.280 it was

00:28:26.700 self-defense

00:28:27.280 what would

00:28:27.900 you do if

00:28:28.300 a cop

00:28:28.600 burst into

00:28:29.020 your apartment

00:28:29.420 in the middle

00:28:29.760 of the night

00:28:30.080 with guns

00:28:30.480 drawn seven

00:28:31.040 of them

00:28:31.380 scaring the

00:28:32.400 hell out of

00:28:32.780 you he had

00:28:33.620 a right to

00:28:34.020 defend himself

00:28:34.660 right that

00:28:35.240 that was

00:28:36.020 the narrative

00:28:36.660 so to

00:28:37.120 those who

00:28:37.520 say they

00:28:38.760 were right

00:28:39.160 not to

00:28:39.540 charge

00:28:39.820 Kenneth

00:28:40.120 Walker

00:28:40.460 what say

00:28:40.900 you

00:28:41.120 if I'm

00:28:43.980 being objective

00:28:44.880 and honest

00:28:45.440 and being

00:28:46.200 dealing with

00:28:46.620 the court

00:28:46.920 systems as

00:28:47.500 long as I

00:28:47.880 have I

00:28:49.260 could see a

00:28:49.860 good attorney

00:28:50.620 being able to

00:28:51.560 flip this

00:28:52.060 and say

00:28:52.520 because we

00:28:53.200 don't have

00:28:53.700 proof as

00:28:54.400 far as

00:28:54.700 body can

00:28:55.200 that's a

00:28:55.580 screw up

00:28:55.960 on our

00:28:56.200 part so

00:28:57.120 I can see

00:28:58.260 them saying

00:28:58.900 there's no

00:28:59.960 proof definitive

00:29:01.340 proof that he

00:29:02.260 heard them

00:29:02.820 not once

00:29:03.940 Kelly did

00:29:04.340 they take

00:29:04.800 us to

00:29:05.140 the scene

00:29:05.720 and say

00:29:07.280 show us

00:29:07.800 what you

00:29:08.120 did show

00:29:08.680 us how

00:29:09.000 loud you

00:29:09.500 knocked so

00:29:09.940 we can

00:29:10.220 take a

00:29:11.080 recorder back

00:29:12.060 in the

00:29:12.320 bedroom and

00:29:12.820 see if we

00:29:13.160 can pick

00:29:13.480 this sound

00:29:14.040 up that

00:29:14.940 never happened

00:29:15.500 which blew

00:29:16.020 my mind

00:29:16.420 also you

00:29:16.980 know we

00:29:17.180 have the

00:29:17.940 state the

00:29:18.620 attorney general

00:29:19.260 and the feds

00:29:19.920 investigating us

00:29:20.880 and not one

00:29:21.800 time has what

00:29:23.160 would seem like

00:29:24.040 a simple part of

00:29:24.900 an investigation

00:29:25.400 taking place

00:29:26.420 take place

00:29:27.200 it just didn't

00:29:27.920 happen and

00:29:29.020 so I could

00:29:29.620 see how you

00:29:30.800 could get a

00:29:31.580 hung jury or

00:29:32.820 maybe even flip

00:29:33.840 him saying

00:29:34.200 there's

00:29:34.540 reasonable

00:29:35.360 doubt that

00:29:35.940 he did not

00:29:36.380 hear us at

00:29:36.840 the door

00:29:37.180 it's hard to

00:29:37.880 swallow because

00:29:38.420 I wholeheartedly

00:29:39.960 believe that

00:29:41.160 he heard us

00:29:42.000 because I know

00:29:43.040 how loud we

00:29:43.560 were yelling

00:29:43.940 I know how

00:29:44.380 loud we were

00:29:44.980 announcing

00:29:45.960 ourselves

00:29:46.480 and but

00:29:47.780 I've also

00:29:48.200 got to be

00:29:48.580 able to be

00:29:49.200 willing to

00:29:49.600 accept the

00:29:50.140 fact that

00:29:50.720 the way our

00:29:51.400 court system

00:29:51.920 works that

00:29:52.900 he probably

00:29:53.340 did have

00:29:53.680 it out

00:29:53.960 and there

00:29:55.900 was there

00:29:56.300 were witnesses

00:29:57.100 in the building

00:29:57.760 who were ready

00:29:58.360 to testify that

00:29:59.380 you guys did

00:29:59.840 not identify

00:30:00.440 yourselves

00:30:00.940 though there

00:30:02.020 was at least

00:30:02.420 one witness

00:30:03.060 who was close

00:30:03.520 by who said

00:30:04.040 I heard it

00:30:04.460 and I heard

00:30:05.020 it clearly

00:30:05.460 right

00:30:06.440 they keep

00:30:06.960 telling these

00:30:07.500 12 witnesses

00:30:08.420 that didn't

00:30:09.060 hear us

00:30:09.500 but what

00:30:09.900 they're not

00:30:10.240 telling you

00:30:10.740 as far as

00:30:11.300 those 12

00:30:11.640 witnesses

00:30:12.020 is some

00:30:13.340 of those

00:30:13.620 were from

00:30:14.100 two buildings

00:30:15.040 down and

00:30:16.560 there's no way

00:30:17.400 they could have

00:30:17.840 heard us

00:30:18.240 one of them

00:30:19.000 even got on

00:30:19.500 the air

00:30:19.800 after she

00:30:20.260 had been

00:30:20.600 on multiple

00:30:21.380 of these

00:30:23.400 documentaries

00:30:24.240 saying oh

00:30:25.040 you know

00:30:25.720 I've had

00:30:26.040 interactions

00:30:26.480 with the

00:30:26.840 police I

00:30:27.200 didn't hear

00:30:27.560 them they

00:30:27.820 did not

00:30:28.360 announce

00:30:28.720 themselves

00:30:29.100 and then

00:30:30.040 I just

00:30:30.740 happened to

00:30:31.140 be on

00:30:32.400 her page

00:30:33.180 one day

00:30:33.620 scrolling

00:30:34.060 through

00:30:34.500 and she's

00:30:35.380 on a live

00:30:35.900 saying I

00:30:36.440 can't believe

00:30:36.880 you people

00:30:37.340 said I

00:30:37.820 said that

00:30:38.300 because there's

00:30:39.480 no way I

00:30:40.020 could have

00:30:40.300 heard them

00:30:40.840 from where

00:30:41.220 my building

00:30:41.720 was it's

00:30:42.160 too far

00:30:42.560 away but

00:30:43.420 they use

00:30:43.880 her as 0.54

00:30:44.420 the as

00:30:45.340 the point

00:30:46.120 of contact

00:30:46.780 saying there's

00:30:47.720 no way

00:30:48.100 that we

00:30:48.880 announced

00:30:49.540 ourselves so

00:30:50.220 she contradicted

00:30:51.220 herself as

00:30:51.780 well and we

00:30:52.940 know the

00:30:53.280 truth and

00:30:53.720 that's that's

00:30:54.200 the great

00:30:54.640 thing about

00:30:55.200 having the

00:30:55.660 truth number

00:30:56.200 one I can

00:30:57.000 repeat my

00:30:57.420 story

00:30:57.820 numerous times

00:30:58.260 it's not

00:30:58.640 going to

00:30:58.840 change because

00:30:59.420 that's what

00:31:00.280 took place

00:31:00.900 and the

00:31:01.560 truth always

00:31:02.140 wins in the

00:31:02.600 end and

00:31:03.540 the same

00:31:03.780 cannot be

00:31:04.140 said for

00:31:04.440 Kenneth Walker

00:31:05.320 whose story

00:31:06.160 has changed

00:31:06.780 multiple times

00:31:07.780 was there

00:31:09.560 you mentioned

00:31:10.300 his connection

00:31:11.360 with drugs

00:31:11.920 whatever came

00:31:13.800 of that was

00:31:14.420 there were

00:31:14.860 there drugs

00:31:15.740 inside of

00:31:16.540 Breonna Taylor's

00:31:17.140 apartment was

00:31:17.740 the stuff that

00:31:18.380 she had allegedly

00:31:18.940 been doing with

00:31:19.620 the other

00:31:20.000 boyfriend ever

00:31:21.360 verified and

00:31:22.500 was Kenneth's

00:31:23.600 connection to

00:31:24.180 the drug world

00:31:24.800 ever confirmed

00:31:26.000 two parts

00:31:28.080 there the

00:31:28.680 the confirmation

00:31:30.740 of drugs inside

00:31:31.560 the apartment

00:31:32.060 or money or

00:31:33.180 anything was

00:31:34.760 not found

00:31:35.480 because the

00:31:36.420 search warrant

00:31:37.120 was not allowed

00:31:38.280 to be executed

00:31:39.020 for the narcotics

00:31:39.900 after the fact

00:31:40.640 our public

00:31:42.900 integrity unit

00:31:43.880 came in and

00:31:44.460 collected the

00:31:44.940 shell casing

00:31:45.480 did the

00:31:45.800 ballistics

00:31:46.280 they searched

00:31:47.160 for anywhere

00:31:47.540 a bullet could

00:31:48.540 be

00:31:48.920 however

00:31:50.580 looking at

00:31:51.560 the pictures

00:31:52.100 knowing how we

00:31:53.320 search and

00:31:53.760 search warrants

00:31:54.340 if you're

00:31:54.620 looking for

00:31:55.200 a specific

00:31:56.120 piece of

00:31:56.680 evidence

00:31:57.020 in a bullet

00:31:57.580 then you're

00:31:58.440 not going

00:31:59.240 through shoe

00:31:59.800 boxes

00:32:00.140 you're not

00:32:00.560 going in the

00:32:01.060 attic

00:32:01.300 you're not

00:32:01.700 doing all

00:32:02.120 the things

00:32:02.520 that we

00:32:02.860 do

00:32:03.220 flipping

00:32:03.840 mattresses

00:32:04.460 looking for

00:32:05.040 cuts in

00:32:05.640 them

00:32:05.780 we know

00:32:06.840 how they

00:32:07.140 had things

00:32:07.640 we know

00:32:07.960 where to

00:32:08.500 look

00:32:08.760 and

00:32:09.500 unfortunately

00:32:10.060 these guys

00:32:10.640 are just

00:32:10.940 in a

00:32:11.240 different

00:32:11.520 field

00:32:12.040 they're

00:32:12.300 collecting

00:32:12.740 ballistic

00:32:13.500 evidence

00:32:14.020 which is

00:32:14.420 totally

00:32:14.700 different

00:32:15.140 and when

00:32:16.000 at 730

00:32:18.100 I believe

00:32:18.380 the next

00:32:18.660 morning

00:32:18.980 one of the

00:32:19.640 detectives

00:32:20.080 on the case

00:32:20.520 reached out

00:32:21.020 to one of

00:32:21.880 the upper

00:32:22.160 chain of

00:32:22.520 commands

00:32:22.860 and said

00:32:23.240 can we

00:32:23.560 go execute

00:32:24.300 this search

00:32:24.800 warrant

00:32:25.000 now

00:32:25.300 the place

00:32:25.960 is still

00:32:26.280 secured

00:32:26.720 let's go

00:32:27.440 wrap this

00:32:27.840 thing up

00:32:28.160 finish it

00:32:28.720 and they

00:32:28.960 were denied

00:32:29.340 access

00:32:29.940 another mistake

00:32:32.540 yes

00:32:32.940 so

00:32:34.440 the second

00:32:36.040 part of

00:32:36.340 that question

00:32:36.940 how did

00:32:38.900 you phrase

00:32:39.200 it I'm

00:32:39.420 sorry

00:32:39.720 well do

00:32:40.540 Kenneth Walker

00:32:41.100 was he

00:32:43.060 connected to

00:32:43.540 crime

00:32:43.880 to drugs

00:32:44.660 yes

00:32:45.900 in his

00:32:46.320 phone

00:32:46.680 there are

00:32:48.100 multiple

00:32:48.340 pictures of

00:32:48.860 him selling

00:32:49.220 pills

00:32:49.580 which we

00:32:50.480 know

00:32:50.720 pills are

00:32:51.220 almost impossible

00:32:51.920 to get

00:32:52.180 from doctors

00:32:52.740 now

00:32:53.080 all

00:32:53.460 probably

00:32:54.180 90%

00:32:54.860 of the

00:32:55.060 pills

00:32:55.280 that we

00:32:55.560 encountered

00:32:55.980 and we

00:32:56.260 seized

00:32:56.560 were

00:32:56.840 fentanyl

00:32:58.960 based

00:32:59.320 because it's

00:33:00.240 cheap

00:33:00.600 it's easy

00:33:01.020 to get

00:33:01.460 on the

00:33:01.800 black market

00:33:02.420 they press

00:33:03.520 these pills

00:33:04.140 they send

00:33:04.780 them out

00:33:05.200 he was selling

00:33:05.880 pills

00:33:06.240 he was selling

00:33:06.640 marijuana

00:33:07.200 bragging

00:33:08.340 about it

00:33:08.820 and then

00:33:09.060 it's what I

00:33:09.840 talked about

00:33:10.180 earlier

00:33:10.520 he had a

00:33:10.980 text from

00:33:11.340 a guy

00:33:11.580 saying hey

00:33:12.120 we got

00:33:12.740 this guy

00:33:13.140 we can

00:33:13.420 hit a

00:33:13.700 lick 0.98

00:33:13.860 on

00:33:14.100 which is

00:33:14.500 rob

00:33:14.840 for 20

00:33:15.620 grand

00:33:16.000 and

00:33:16.940 Kenneth

00:33:17.440 said

00:33:17.860 his response

00:33:18.640 was

00:33:19.080 well I

00:33:19.800 always do

00:33:20.360 good

00:33:20.580 surveillance

00:33:21.080 beforehand

00:33:21.620 so I know

00:33:22.140 what I'm

00:33:22.400 getting into

00:33:23.020 and

00:33:24.240 20 grand

00:33:25.300 worth it

00:33:25.820 or something

00:33:26.240 to that

00:33:26.580 effect

00:33:26.940 so yeah

00:33:27.620 he was

00:33:27.900 in the

00:33:28.100 game

00:33:28.380 he's not

00:33:29.600 this innocent

00:33:30.140 poor guy

00:33:30.760 who was

00:33:31.040 getting ready

00:33:31.360 to marry

00:33:31.680 this girl

00:33:32.120 because he

00:33:32.580 wasn't

00:33:33.320 he's on

00:33:33.940 jail phone

00:33:34.420 calls

00:33:34.700 talking about

00:33:35.520 you know

00:33:36.180 hooking up

00:33:37.220 with other

00:33:39.600 do we have

00:33:40.420 reason to

00:33:40.820 believe that

00:33:41.360 brianna

00:33:41.660 taylor

00:33:42.020 was involved

00:33:42.820 with the

00:33:43.140 ex-boyfriend

00:33:43.720 and running

00:33:44.160 some sort

00:33:44.660 of or

00:33:44.960 helping him

00:33:45.540 with his

00:33:46.340 drug business

00:33:47.040 yes

00:33:48.100 he's on

00:33:49.520 jamarcus

00:33:50.140 glover

00:33:50.500 the ex-boyfriend

00:33:51.320 is on

00:33:51.880 jail phone

00:33:52.780 calls

00:33:53.240 talking about

00:33:54.360 that brianna

00:33:55.100 held the

00:33:55.700 money for

00:33:56.080 him and

00:33:56.420 other

00:33:56.720 individuals

00:33:57.440 for their

00:33:58.560 drug money

00:33:59.060 because

00:33:59.540 they like

00:34:00.440 to keep

00:34:00.760 it spread

00:34:01.160 out because

00:34:01.740 baby mamas

00:34:02.600 and different

00:34:03.240 things might

00:34:03.720 get mad and 0.70

00:34:04.340 take their

00:34:04.680 money or

00:34:05.020 call the

00:34:05.320 police on

00:34:05.760 them so

00:34:06.980 they're

00:34:07.500 pretty sly

00:34:08.340 and smooth

00:34:09.160 as far as

00:34:09.740 spreading these

00:34:10.340 things out

00:34:10.940 and again

00:34:11.320 i'll go back

00:34:12.680 to what i said

00:34:13.200 before you know

00:34:14.000 brianna may have

00:34:14.600 been tied up

00:34:15.140 in this stuff

00:34:15.720 but i think

00:34:16.300 she was kind

00:34:16.840 of a victim

00:34:17.800 of guys

00:34:19.520 taking advantage

00:34:20.200 of her i don't

00:34:20.880 know she was

00:34:21.340 looking for love

00:34:22.300 or needed that

00:34:23.260 verification i don't

00:34:24.360 know but this

00:34:24.940 this is the

00:34:25.880 typical thing

00:34:26.960 we i've seen

00:34:27.640 in my entire

00:34:28.260 career where

00:34:29.060 these guys

00:34:30.080 manipulate these

00:34:30.840 girls or pay 0.98

00:34:31.580 some bills or

00:34:32.180 do whatever they

00:34:32.720 do to get

00:34:34.040 them involved

00:34:34.820 because then

00:34:35.440 that gives

00:34:35.780 them an 0.87

00:34:36.240 extra

00:34:36.560 shelter

00:34:36.880 protection

00:34:37.460 or an

00:34:37.900 extra layer

00:34:38.540 between them

00:34:39.360 and law

00:34:39.640 enforcement

00:34:40.040 i mean it's

00:34:43.080 yeah i know

00:34:43.480 and i know

00:34:44.120 you've said

00:34:44.400 this yourself

00:34:44.860 it's awful

00:34:45.540 what happened

00:34:46.060 to her

00:34:46.500 no one

00:34:46.980 wanted that

00:34:47.540 no one

00:34:47.860 thinks it

00:34:48.220 was justified 0.90

00:34:48.840 um but it

00:34:50.280 is just a

00:34:50.740 good reminder

00:34:51.280 to everyone

00:34:52.080 to like be

00:34:52.620 careful with

00:34:53.280 whom you

00:34:53.620 associate

00:34:54.020 you just

00:34:54.480 never know

00:34:55.100 what kind

00:34:56.500 of world

00:34:56.880 you're going

00:34:57.160 to get

00:34:57.360 sucked into

00:34:57.960 or what

00:34:58.380 kind of

00:34:58.680 danger

00:34:59.000 you might

00:34:59.380 find yourself

00:34:59.880 facing if

00:35:00.500 you choose

00:35:01.420 to spend

00:35:01.780 your life

00:35:02.280 with nefarious

00:35:03.040 characters

00:35:03.600 um she

00:35:05.500 you know

00:35:06.360 her she's

00:35:07.500 been lauded

00:35:07.920 by the press

00:35:08.620 and by people

00:35:09.140 like oprah

00:35:09.700 as this

00:35:10.240 decorated

00:35:11.200 emt

00:35:12.440 you know

00:35:13.720 that was a

00:35:14.220 new piece

00:35:14.840 of her life

00:35:15.320 she'd only

00:35:15.700 been acting

00:35:16.220 as an

00:35:16.480 emt for

00:35:16.960 five months

00:35:17.580 and you

00:35:19.140 know

00:35:19.260 she wasn't

00:35:19.880 even an

00:35:20.180 emt at

00:35:20.600 this point

00:35:21.040 she was

00:35:21.880 fired for

00:35:22.480 me oh

00:35:23.040 no she

00:35:23.780 was she

00:35:24.300 was an

00:35:24.660 emt she

00:35:25.220 hadn't been

00:35:25.500 emt since

00:35:26.000 2017 she

00:35:27.560 was fired

00:35:27.940 from that

00:35:28.280 job she 0.60

00:35:29.220 was on

00:35:29.500 the no

00:35:29.880 rehire

00:35:30.420 list from

00:35:30.920 the city

00:35:31.360 oh boy

00:35:32.520 that was

00:35:32.900 just another

00:35:33.400 they took

00:35:33.780 a picture

00:35:34.120 from several

00:35:34.600 years ago

00:35:35.240 and it

00:35:35.820 wasn't

00:35:35.980 decorated

00:35:36.420 she'd only

00:35:36.840 been on

00:35:37.100 five months

00:35:37.600 there's no

00:35:38.020 you don't

00:35:38.960 get a

00:35:39.160 decoration

00:35:39.560 that picture

00:35:40.040 they show

00:35:40.380 of her

00:35:40.580 with the

00:35:40.800 decoration

00:35:41.260 was the

00:35:42.280 graduation

00:35:43.120 plaque

00:35:43.580 from

00:35:43.940 emt

00:35:44.460 school

00:35:44.840 because that's

00:35:45.720 what oprah 0.97

00:35:46.060 says here's

00:35:46.600 oprah's um

00:35:47.660 this is what

00:35:48.220 she posted

00:35:48.740 about this

00:35:49.260 today would

00:35:50.260 have been

00:35:50.480 brianna taylor's

00:35:51.160 27th birthday

00:35:52.000 but she's not 0.62

00:35:52.720 here to

00:35:53.080 celebrate because

00:35:53.760 shortly after

00:35:54.280 midnight on

00:35:54.780 march 13th

00:35:55.480 louisville police

00:35:56.220 entered her

00:35:56.840 apartment

00:35:57.220 unannounced

00:35:58.420 you write in

00:35:59.420 your book

00:35:59.760 false and

00:36:01.320 after a brief

00:36:01.840 confrontation

00:36:02.280 with her

00:36:02.820 boyfriend

00:36:03.160 and you

00:36:04.180 write in

00:36:04.400 your book

00:36:04.680 i think she

00:36:05.480 meant when

00:36:06.160 that boyfriend

00:36:06.940 shot a

00:36:07.480 police officer

00:36:08.180 uh shot her 0.94

00:36:09.840 eight times

00:36:10.460 right because

00:36:11.040 oprah says

00:36:11.480 after a brief

00:36:11.980 confrontation

00:36:12.340 with her

00:36:12.820 boyfriend

00:36:13.180 shot eight

00:36:14.500 times uh

00:36:15.860 the officers

00:36:16.700 have not

00:36:17.580 been fired

00:36:18.200 or charged

00:36:19.060 and oprah

00:36:19.640 winfrey

00:36:19.880 continues

00:36:20.440 by remembering

00:36:21.420 taylor as an

00:36:22.040 award-winning

00:36:22.540 emt who

00:36:23.820 doesn't even

00:36:24.380 get a chance

00:36:24.940 to celebrate

00:36:25.440 her birthday

00:36:25.980 that's oprah

00:36:26.620 alicia keys

00:36:27.780 is the one

00:36:28.320 who tweeted

00:36:28.840 out say

00:36:29.320 her name

00:36:29.940 millions and

00:36:31.280 millions of

00:36:31.700 shares tens

00:36:32.240 of millions

00:36:32.600 of people

00:36:32.940 saw it

00:36:33.480 and even

00:36:35.220 the now

00:36:36.240 vice president

00:36:37.080 of the united

00:36:38.180 states she

00:36:39.000 was running

00:36:39.400 for office

00:36:39.820 then kamala

00:36:40.480 harris tweeted

00:36:40.980 out quote

00:36:41.540 there are two

00:36:42.740 systems of

00:36:43.280 justice when

00:36:43.780 peaceful

00:36:44.100 protesters are

00:36:44.980 arrested and

00:36:46.120 the police

00:36:46.940 who murdered

00:36:48.040 brianna taylor

00:36:49.220 almost three

00:36:49.780 months ago

00:36:50.320 still roam

00:36:51.860 free what did

00:36:54.720 you make of

00:36:55.120 that man it's

00:36:57.300 just another slap 0.71

00:36:58.060 in the face i

00:36:59.040 mean it was

00:36:59.600 continual i've

00:37:01.180 told everybody

00:37:01.760 being shot was

00:37:02.620 the easiest part

00:37:03.400 of this whole

00:37:04.400 ordeal you know

00:37:05.440 i would take

00:37:05.840 that ten times

00:37:06.640 over from all

00:37:07.780 the stuff we've

00:37:09.040 gone through

00:37:09.520 after the fact

00:37:10.440 so when you

00:37:11.340 have your

00:37:11.620 political

00:37:11.980 leaders getting

00:37:13.080 up in

00:37:14.140 positions of

00:37:14.860 authority and

00:37:16.360 saying these

00:37:17.060 things about

00:37:17.860 individuals that

00:37:20.460 affect their 0.57

00:37:21.180 lives especially

00:37:22.100 individuals who

00:37:23.000 are your your

00:37:24.480 people who give

00:37:25.820 to society who

00:37:27.160 are an actual

00:37:27.620 asset as

00:37:29.020 opposed to

00:37:29.540 people who

00:37:29.920 are leeches

00:37:30.320 of society

00:37:30.940 then you know

00:37:32.180 it's just hard

00:37:33.180 to number one

00:37:34.180 take them

00:37:34.540 serious respect

00:37:35.500 them and it

00:37:37.440 just makes you

00:37:37.880 sick to your

00:37:38.240 stomach

00:37:38.540 you think

00:37:40.600 she stoked

00:37:41.340 the controversy

00:37:42.240 for political

00:37:43.280 benefit and

00:37:44.260 without much

00:37:45.180 concern for your

00:37:46.020 safety or that

00:37:46.720 of your family

00:37:47.260 100 she

00:37:48.600 doesn't care

00:37:49.040 about anybody

00:37:49.520 but her

00:37:50.040 most of these

00:37:51.040 politicians don't 0.94

00:37:51.740 i don't care

00:37:52.100 what side of

00:37:52.700 the aisle you're

00:37:53.160 on there's a

00:37:53.560 few good ones

00:37:54.100 but most of

00:37:55.340 them are just

00:37:55.800 about now and

00:37:57.140 what's my next

00:37:57.820 election cycle

00:37:58.600 how am i going

00:37:59.160 to how am i

00:37:59.740 constantly setting

00:38:00.840 up the next

00:38:01.300 thing it's not

00:38:01.800 about the

00:38:02.120 american people

00:38:02.820 when you have

00:38:04.320 that big a

00:38:04.740 platform and it

00:38:05.740 wasn't just

00:38:06.160 kamala harris

00:38:06.740 george clooney

00:38:07.500 here's just a

00:38:08.360 few examples

00:38:08.880 actually um

00:38:10.180 okay snoop

00:38:12.000 dog was out

00:38:12.540 there saying

00:38:13.100 that you

00:38:13.460 would never

00:38:13.860 you didn't

00:38:14.660 knock as

00:38:16.540 if snoop

00:38:16.900 dog knows

00:38:17.320 absolutely

00:38:18.200 anything about

00:38:19.080 this case or

00:38:19.760 any other

00:38:20.120 lebron james

00:38:21.380 was out there

00:38:22.160 wearing some

00:38:22.540 baseball cap

00:38:23.160 by any means

00:38:24.200 make america

00:38:25.340 arrest the

00:38:26.060 cops who

00:38:26.500 killed brianna

00:38:27.060 taylor ice

00:38:28.240 cube was

00:38:29.020 wearing a hat

00:38:29.840 or something

00:38:30.380 saying wanted

00:38:31.760 three murderers

00:38:32.900 uh in the

00:38:33.900 brianna taylor

00:38:34.480 case so it

00:38:35.340 was stoked by

00:38:36.840 all these

00:38:37.420 celebrities you

00:38:38.440 know with

00:38:38.680 tens of

00:38:39.080 millions of

00:38:39.440 dollars i

00:38:40.660 imagine you

00:38:41.320 with 21

00:38:41.860 years of

00:38:42.600 service as

00:38:43.060 a cop under

00:38:43.600 your belt do

00:38:44.180 not have tens

00:38:44.680 of millions of

00:38:45.160 dollars uh or

00:38:46.700 your or your

00:38:47.420 kids you know

00:38:48.060 you had older

00:38:49.120 children who were

00:38:50.420 also getting

00:38:50.940 death threats as

00:38:51.660 all these

00:38:52.040 extremely famous

00:38:53.060 people stoke the

00:38:54.380 fires against your

00:38:55.080 family right it

00:38:56.940 was just continual i

00:38:57.940 mean no matter

00:38:59.000 which way we

00:38:59.600 turned and and

00:39:00.560 that's the problem

00:39:01.040 because some of

00:39:01.520 you you kind of

00:39:02.220 enjoy listening to

00:39:03.340 or watching their

00:39:04.080 movies or or

00:39:05.540 you know i

00:39:06.020 love sports but

00:39:07.040 after all this

00:39:07.900 and i'm seeing

00:39:08.340 the names on

00:39:08.940 the back of

00:39:09.460 these jerseys and

00:39:10.380 you know one

00:39:11.420 football player

00:39:12.080 donated a hundred

00:39:12.760 thousand dollars

00:39:13.600 and another one

00:39:14.320 you know they're

00:39:15.680 getting on there

00:39:16.120 making videos the

00:39:17.160 nba did their

00:39:18.380 own documentary uh

00:39:19.980 the nba players

00:39:20.800 did their own

00:39:21.220 documentary on

00:39:22.020 this i'm i'm

00:39:22.920 going my

00:39:24.000 goodness all you

00:39:24.860 people are pushing

00:39:25.700 this false agenda

00:39:26.740 that you have no

00:39:28.040 nothing no clue

00:39:29.600 about the truth

00:39:30.500 isn't out and

00:39:31.540 that goes back to

00:39:32.160 what we talked

00:39:32.560 about earlier you

00:39:33.740 know the city

00:39:34.360 and the department

00:39:35.040 had all this

00:39:36.080 information from

00:39:36.920 day one our

00:39:37.980 city council

00:39:38.640 president had all

00:39:39.720 the information

00:39:40.440 and what did

00:39:41.200 they do they

00:39:41.580 chose to sit on

00:39:42.420 it because they

00:39:43.120 had already gone

00:39:44.500 forward with

00:39:45.320 allowing her

00:39:46.240 family on their

00:39:46.880 platforms to

00:39:47.800 speak and they

00:39:49.100 were giving them

00:39:49.680 time in the

00:39:50.680 governor's behind

00:39:51.820 his podium behind

00:39:53.040 the mayor's podium

00:39:53.920 to sit there and

00:39:54.880 say we need to

00:39:55.860 arrest these cops

00:39:56.620 they need to go

00:39:57.060 to prison they

00:39:57.680 need to lose

00:39:58.040 their job they

00:39:58.620 need to lose

00:39:58.940 their pension all

00:40:00.300 without the the 0.55

00:40:01.340 forethought of you

00:40:02.880 know they have

00:40:03.560 families also and

00:40:04.940 these are being

00:40:05.440 affected by all

00:40:06.360 these lies and and

00:40:07.660 that just went out

00:40:08.220 the window

00:40:08.540 thank god for

00:40:10.300 daniel cameron

00:40:11.020 an honest lawyer

00:40:12.740 black attorney

00:40:14.180 general who's

00:40:15.440 taken so much

00:40:16.140 heat for not

00:40:17.500 recommending a

00:40:18.160 prosecution uh you

00:40:19.340 know called skin

00:40:20.440 folk but not kin

00:40:21.540 folk by msnbc

00:40:23.220 commentators who

00:40:24.340 viewed it as a

00:40:25.320 betrayal that he

00:40:26.200 didn't push for

00:40:27.420 criminal charges

00:40:28.100 against you uh it's

00:40:29.740 a testament in a way

00:40:30.580 to his courage as

00:40:31.460 well and what kind

00:40:32.520 of a man he is

00:40:33.420 definitely has a

00:40:34.840 higher office ahead

00:40:35.840 of him and he's

00:40:37.060 one of the good

00:40:38.020 politicians who we

00:40:39.420 want who's not

00:40:40.180 always thinking about

00:40:40.800 he'd been thinking

00:40:41.320 about himself he

00:40:42.620 would have joined

00:40:43.060 the mob he it

00:40:44.160 would have been an

00:40:44.620 easy decision for

00:40:45.960 him on what to do

00:40:46.900 let me pause there

00:40:47.880 quick break and

00:40:49.180 more with you on

00:40:49.820 i'd love to get

00:40:50.320 your thoughts on

00:40:50.800 him and so much

00:40:51.760 more stand by

00:40:52.320 john maddening is

00:40:52.940 back next

00:40:53.540 so your thoughts on

00:41:01.080 daniel cameron and

00:41:01.940 the courage he

00:41:02.420 showed in this case

00:41:03.080 you know i'd heard

00:41:04.460 good things about

00:41:05.180 him i've never met

00:41:05.760 the man um i'd

00:41:07.120 heard he's a man

00:41:07.640 of faith so my

00:41:09.300 hope was that he

00:41:10.460 was going to do

00:41:10.800 the right thing but

00:41:12.220 with the passing of

00:41:13.220 the buck that had

00:41:13.860 taken place from uh

00:41:15.720 the da giving it

00:41:16.820 up the the western

00:41:18.860 division of uh

00:41:20.440 the u.s attorney

00:41:21.520 passing it on to

00:41:23.100 the eastern division

00:41:24.000 um there was a lot

00:41:25.400 of people who just

00:41:26.120 you know understandably

00:41:27.920 but cowardly didn't

00:41:28.960 want their hands on

00:41:29.760 it um and some of

00:41:31.960 it wasn't their

00:41:32.380 decision the court

00:41:33.120 made some of the

00:41:33.660 decisions for him or

00:41:34.600 the doj but uh the

00:41:36.880 fact that he did the

00:41:38.100 right thing and stood

00:41:38.960 up was just amazing

00:41:40.100 and it just shows his

00:41:41.280 character it shows the

00:41:42.760 fact that you know

00:41:43.800 his he was getting

00:41:44.640 ready to get married

00:41:45.280 and he and his wife

00:41:46.260 were getting accosted

00:41:47.720 in their their house

00:41:48.820 and um and the

00:41:50.720 sad thing is that

00:41:51.780 none of those people

00:41:52.780 who threatened him

00:41:53.600 who came to even

00:41:54.500 the attorney general's

00:41:55.520 house on his door

00:41:56.660 saying they're going

00:41:57.100 to burn his house

00:41:57.760 down if if he didn't

00:41:58.840 do the right thing

00:41:59.520 their their charges

00:42:00.320 were dropped and

00:42:01.680 that that stuff just

00:42:02.960 you look at it and

00:42:03.560 go well no wonder

00:42:04.060 people have this

00:42:04.720 boldness and this

00:42:06.080 no-care attitude about

00:42:07.260 upholding the law or

00:42:08.240 abiding by the law

00:42:09.040 because there's no

00:42:10.060 accountability for

00:42:10.880 these things

00:42:11.440 um the he didn't

00:42:15.920 recommend criminal

00:42:16.580 charges to the grand

00:42:17.440 jury and they didn't

00:42:18.640 return them against

00:42:19.600 you and um your

00:42:20.620 fellow officers with

00:42:21.540 again the one

00:42:22.180 exemption of

00:42:22.880 hankinson um some

00:42:25.340 of the grand jurors

00:42:26.120 later spoke out and

00:42:27.440 actually took issue

00:42:28.800 with some of what

00:42:29.960 daniel cameron said

00:42:30.820 publicly and sounded

00:42:32.360 like they were more in

00:42:33.220 favor of charges than

00:42:34.060 we knew i'll give you

00:42:35.600 an example one woman

00:42:36.520 who sat on the

00:42:36.980 grand jury said she

00:42:38.080 believed the

00:42:38.520 investigation was

00:42:39.300 incomplete that the

00:42:40.740 prosecution wanted to

00:42:41.580 give the cops a slap

00:42:42.440 on the wrist and close

00:42:43.460 it up there should have

00:42:44.640 been more charges she

00:42:45.560 said this echoed two

00:42:47.080 other grand jurors um

00:42:48.540 and i don't know how

00:42:49.860 many grand jury members

00:42:51.160 there were generally

00:42:51.760 there are on 18 um so

00:42:54.220 this is three saying the

00:42:56.320 panel wasn't allowed to

00:42:57.160 consider additional

00:42:57.760 charges because the

00:42:58.560 prosecutor told them the

00:42:59.680 use of force was

00:43:00.400 justified and said

00:43:02.040 police went in there like

00:43:02.940 it was the okay corral

00:43:04.100 wanted dead or alive

00:43:05.280 they were rankled by

00:43:06.560 cameron saying jurors

00:43:07.420 agreed that no other

00:43:08.640 charges were justified 0.84

00:43:09.600 saying he made it sound

00:43:11.400 like it was all our fault

00:43:12.660 and it wasn't what did

00:43:14.200 you make of that well i

00:43:16.380 think that's part of

00:43:17.400 that's ignorance on on

00:43:18.680 people understanding how

00:43:19.660 the court system works

00:43:21.000 there have been many

00:43:21.820 times i've taken cases

00:43:23.500 to a district attorney

00:43:25.100 and said hey can we

00:43:26.360 indict this person can

00:43:27.460 we do a direct

00:43:27.940 indictment and they

00:43:28.760 look at the at the

00:43:29.800 case file and they go

00:43:30.880 man there's really just

00:43:32.340 it doesn't really meet

00:43:33.080 the elements of this

00:43:33.960 case you know you can

00:43:35.160 go with this charge but

00:43:36.220 i wouldn't go with

00:43:37.020 this charge so there's

00:43:39.620 the prosecutors only

00:43:41.960 present to the grand

00:43:42.800 jury what they think

00:43:43.800 will give them enough

00:43:44.880 evidence to win a court

00:43:46.580 case or to pursue it

00:43:48.140 enough to at least take

00:43:49.020 it to trial to see what

00:43:50.040 the jury say and in this

00:43:51.520 case by the letter of

00:43:53.240 the law by the the the

00:43:55.480 the way the law is

00:43:56.420 written we abided by it

00:43:58.660 we did everything that

00:43:59.560 we were supposed to do

00:44:00.540 and so therefore no

00:44:02.440 charges could even be

00:44:03.400 presented because it

00:44:04.200 didn't meet the

00:44:04.600 elements of that law

00:44:05.460 hmm hankinson meantime

00:44:07.760 meantime as i

00:44:08.940 mentioned was just

00:44:09.620 acquitted um he was

00:44:11.660 facing on these three

00:44:13.440 counts up to five

00:44:14.800 years in prison per

00:44:16.340 count brianna taylor's

00:44:18.100 family wanted murder

00:44:19.600 charges he went they

00:44:20.680 wanted him charged well

00:44:21.580 all of you to be

00:44:22.360 charged with murder what

00:44:23.960 did you make of

00:44:25.060 hankinson's acquittal

00:44:26.440 and honestly i thought

00:44:29.280 he would get a grand

00:44:29.940 jury a uh a hung jury i

00:44:32.940 didn't know that that

00:44:34.500 enough people would have

00:44:35.340 the courage to do the

00:44:36.380 right thing um i know

00:44:39.140 people are looking at

00:44:39.840 that going yeah but

00:44:40.900 he shot indiscriminately

00:44:42.200 but that wasn't the

00:44:43.060 case he thought we

00:44:44.480 were getting executed

00:44:45.380 at the doorway and he

00:44:46.760 was doing whatever he

00:44:47.880 could to stop that

00:44:48.780 threat and you know for

00:44:50.780 that i'm indebted i

00:44:53.440 uh i appreciate it and

00:44:55.040 he went through hell

00:44:56.080 over doing what he

00:44:58.120 thought he was trying

00:44:58.800 to save our lives and

00:45:00.660 and for that you know

00:45:02.080 uh i commend him for

00:45:03.220 him he was what where

00:45:05.580 did he shoot because

00:45:06.520 it's been a while since

00:45:07.160 i looked at that but my

00:45:07.980 understanding was it was

00:45:08.800 into a different

00:45:09.420 apartment that had a

00:45:10.340 man or woman a child 0.89

00:45:11.280 in it no what happened

00:45:12.900 was he shot into the

00:45:13.900 right apartment but the

00:45:15.760 walls are so thin that

00:45:17.040 it went through their

00:45:18.620 walls in brianna taylor's

00:45:19.980 apartment into the

00:45:20.960 adjacent apartment and we

00:45:23.020 weren't given the layout

00:45:23.940 on uh on the way these

00:45:26.060 apartments were set up

00:45:27.120 and if you're on the

00:45:27.700 outside looking in it's

00:45:29.260 hard to realize that that

00:45:30.640 the the back apartment

00:45:32.440 wraps around and is

00:45:33.920 actually co-joined walls

00:45:35.780 uh with brianna taylor's

00:45:37.440 apartment so where he

00:45:39.540 shot was where he

00:45:40.400 intended to shoot but the

00:45:41.680 bullets just kept

00:45:42.300 traveling i see so when

00:45:44.280 you heard that he was

00:45:45.020 acquitted were you

00:45:45.660 relieved oh my goodness

00:45:47.540 yeah because it's kind of

00:45:49.280 like survivor's guilt you

00:45:50.540 know even though we

00:45:51.840 didn't cause kenneth walker

00:45:53.200 to shoot at us we didn't

00:45:54.460 create the scenario that

00:45:55.760 night i feel like i was

00:45:58.640 the lucky one for getting

00:45:59.440 shot i didn't lose my job i

00:46:01.320 didn't get charged like

00:46:02.200 these other cops so i'm

00:46:03.980 thinking man do you

00:46:05.200 really in this line of

00:46:06.240 duty now or in this job

00:46:07.620 do you really have to

00:46:08.820 take a bullet just to

00:46:10.260 justify doing your job

00:46:11.760 and unfortunately that

00:46:13.420 that's kind of the

00:46:14.300 scenario that's taking

00:46:15.040 place across the country

00:46:16.120 if you look around and

00:46:17.700 unless there's concrete

00:46:19.320 proof they no longer

00:46:21.540 believe police officers

00:46:22.500 were we had seven guys

00:46:23.960 who gave somewhat

00:46:25.160 different views of what

00:46:26.900 happened because one

00:46:27.700 person said they saw

00:46:28.680 this or they heard this

00:46:29.840 so we obviously didn't

00:46:31.360 come together and get

00:46:32.080 our stories and go okay

00:46:33.220 let's say this because

00:46:34.500 everything would have

00:46:35.460 aligned perfectly but we

00:46:36.880 all did say we knocked

00:46:38.520 and announced everybody

00:46:39.840 that story never changed

00:46:41.360 all the only thing that

00:46:42.480 changed was viewpoints of

00:46:43.780 where people were at at

00:46:45.140 different times

00:46:45.860 knocked and announced and

00:46:48.480 as you point out that

00:46:50.500 appears to be what even

00:46:51.560 kenneth walker said to his

00:46:53.580 mother as documented by

00:46:55.460 another officer who was in

00:46:57.300 that building was friends

00:46:58.240 with kenneth walker and

00:47:00.060 yet it was never really

00:47:01.400 focused in on by the cops

00:47:02.900 or anyone else taking a

00:47:03.800 look at this case because

00:47:04.640 kenneth walker reportedly

00:47:06.280 told that cop i called my

00:47:09.060 mom and and the mom said 1.00

00:47:10.780 that he was saying the

00:47:13.160 police were there that's

00:47:14.080 what that's what the

00:47:14.660 mother said to this cop all 1.00

00:47:15.900 right listen there's much

00:47:16.440 more to go over including

00:47:17.560 john's feelings on benjamin

00:47:19.780 crump and what go fund me

00:47:22.560 did to this officer when his

00:47:25.500 friend tried to raise some

00:47:26.800 money to help him fight the

00:47:28.440 attacks against him this

00:47:29.820 organization is absolutely

00:47:30.880 shameful sometimes just

00:47:32.440 shameful we'll be right

00:47:33.780 back don't go away

00:47:34.520 here with me today john

00:47:41.100 mattingly former louisville

00:47:42.380 kentucky police sergeant

00:47:43.860 giving his first interview

00:47:45.500 now since on the

00:47:46.540 publication of his new book

00:47:48.300 12 seconds in the dark in

00:47:50.480 which he sets the record

00:47:51.380 straight about what really

00:47:52.620 happened in the brianna

00:47:54.040 taylor case which has become

00:47:55.480 so popular amongst

00:47:57.800 celebrities as exhibit a

00:48:00.360 maybe b after george floyd

00:48:02.800 and why we need police

00:48:04.120 reform and why we need to

00:48:05.240 defund the police and in

00:48:06.940 why we shouldn't trust

00:48:08.420 cops especially when it 0.94

00:48:09.880 comes to dealing with

00:48:10.720 black suspects or the

00:48:12.480 black community can i just

00:48:14.040 spend a minute on that

00:48:14.780 does this case have

00:48:16.060 anything to do with race

00:48:17.020 i mean as far as i can

00:48:18.160 tell what it has to do

00:48:19.100 with race is what the

00:48:21.020 media just decided to tell

00:48:22.840 us like there's not an

00:48:23.900 allegation here that anybody

00:48:25.640 involved was a racist like

00:48:27.080 what does it have to do

00:48:28.160 with race

00:48:28.580 it doesn't just the fact

00:48:31.080 that i'm white and or we

00:48:32.580 were white police officers

00:48:33.700 even though we had a black

00:48:34.760 officer with us but um the

00:48:37.000 officers were white and and

00:48:38.820 and brianna was black um 0.61

00:48:41.180 and the sad thing is ever

00:48:43.440 since michael brown and all

00:48:44.680 that stuff blew up in

00:48:45.920 ferguson every time there's

00:48:47.880 an officer involved shooting

00:48:49.040 locally the first question

00:48:51.460 ask is were they black or

00:48:53.600 white and that shouldn't 1.00

00:48:54.800 be the case the case

00:48:55.880 should simply be was it a

00:48:57.660 good shoot period because

00:48:59.740 criminal activity doesn't

00:49:00.940 discriminate with color and

00:49:02.820 you know we we paint

00:49:04.340 everything in such a small

00:49:05.680 box of black and white and

00:49:07.760 it makes other aspects of

00:49:10.120 life so hard to live by

00:49:12.140 because that you're always

00:49:14.040 looking over your shoulder

00:49:15.000 for that racist boogeyman that

00:49:16.800 doesn't exist and it's it's

00:49:19.000 sad that it's evolved to

00:49:20.360 that it's like being called

00:49:22.920 those terrible names is the

00:49:24.160 least of your problem when

00:49:25.200 they're looking to put you

00:49:26.040 in jail like your colleague

00:49:27.280 was for you know 15 years

00:49:29.880 or when you're fighting for

00:49:30.960 your life as you were when

00:49:32.700 you realize you've been shot

00:49:33.620 in the femoral artery but

00:49:35.220 still it's it's not fun to

00:49:36.660 have it all over the the

00:49:38.100 country um as it was and one

00:49:40.940 of the complaints you raise

00:49:41.800 in the book is that you were

00:49:42.780 not defended by the city

00:49:44.600 officials by the mayor by the

00:49:46.640 governor and how brianna

00:49:49.080 taylor's family was given a

00:49:51.780 platform anywhere they wanted

00:49:54.100 whether it was the mayor's

00:49:55.660 office or television or

00:49:56.960 anywhere and you tell me how

00:49:59.620 they used it and whether

00:50:01.180 anyone who was supposed to be

00:50:03.440 at least figuratively neutral

00:50:06.340 never mind on your side

00:50:07.640 responded yeah it was it was a

00:50:12.060 little shocking you know you

00:50:14.060 don't expect um liberal

00:50:16.400 leaders to come have your

00:50:18.740 back but in the same sense you

00:50:20.860 don't expect them to set you up

00:50:22.560 for failure either um when i

00:50:25.540 would say they didn't have skin 0.62

00:50:26.780 in the game but i guess they did

00:50:28.220 because they they tried to um

00:50:30.700 utilize this for for the votes in

00:50:33.700 2020 and it clearly worked uh they

00:50:36.600 they used us and the false

00:50:39.400 narrative to push their agendas

00:50:41.640 and it it just it was baffling

00:50:45.820 that ben crump was able to get

00:50:48.900 up there and talk about you know

00:50:50.980 say just all this outlandish stuff

00:50:53.520 that i'm sitting back there going

00:50:54.940 are you kidding me who's going to

00:50:56.200 stand up and say this this never

00:50:58.720 happened you know you don't have

00:50:59.940 to give details of the case but in

00:51:02.080 louisville anyway after a police

00:51:04.020 shooting our mayor who is

00:51:06.720 transparent you know that's his big

00:51:08.820 buzzword releases body cam footage

00:51:11.880 within 24 hours of the shooting

00:51:13.380 so you mean to tell me you would

00:51:15.580 have released the body cam if we

00:51:16.900 had it but you can't simply go on

00:51:18.820 there and say no they had the right

00:51:20.580 apartment no her name was on the

00:51:22.560 warrant no she wasn't asleep in bed

00:51:24.780 no the lover wasn't in custody that

00:51:27.280 does nothing to impede the case it

00:51:28.980 doesn't it doesn't affect the

00:51:30.460 investigation but by not saying it

00:51:33.580 it helps push their agenda the other

00:51:35.400 way and that's what's so troubling

00:51:37.140 and unless we get this thing turned

00:51:39.140 around you're not going to have any

00:51:40.800 good cops you're going to go back to

00:51:42.160 the 80s like it was in new orleans

00:51:43.660 and detroit where you're just taking

00:51:45.440 anybody that's breathing and then

00:51:46.900 you have nothing but you want

00:51:48.300 corruption that's where you're going

00:51:49.340 to get corruption and if we don't

00:51:51.520 put the brakes on this thing and have

00:51:53.080 people support and come out and say i

00:51:56.140 don't care you know what office you

00:51:57.680 hold you're wrong and and support the

00:52:00.000 police it is one thing for people to

00:52:02.340 look at the actual facts and come to a

00:52:04.640 decision no i don't think they

00:52:06.020 behave well no they shouldn't have

00:52:07.240 done this they shouldn't have done

00:52:08.420 that that's fair game right we all

00:52:09.960 face that in our businesses it's

00:52:12.220 quite another to have a completely

00:52:14.520 false narrative spun about you and

00:52:17.000 you're not allowed to say anything

00:52:18.780 and those who are refuse because they

00:52:22.040 want to save their own political

00:52:23.820 skins i know you write in the book

00:52:25.280 that there was one city council

00:52:26.340 member who was out there calling

00:52:27.660 kenneth walker a hero while

00:52:29.720 everybody on you know his side and

00:52:31.300 brianna taylor's family was calling

00:52:33.080 for you to be arrested fired you know

00:52:35.840 they wanted everybody terminated or

00:52:37.060 punished and the kenneth walker is the

00:52:39.020 hero you want to hear a kicker to

00:52:41.220 that so two weeks ago a judge retired

00:52:45.620 or judge retired like a month or two

00:52:47.260 ago i don't know quite when but a

00:52:49.620 couple of weeks ago our our good old

00:52:51.400 brave governor filled that vacancy in

00:52:55.240 the courts as a judgeship with this same

00:52:58.140 council member they called kenneth walker

00:53:00.020 a hero and so it's just there's just

00:53:03.320 constant like so it worked you know

00:53:05.220 yeah how tone-deaf is this guy you

00:53:08.200 know that that he knows she's not

00:53:10.280 unbiased she's very biased as far as

00:53:13.260 her views yet you're going to put her

00:53:15.020 in a judgeship position that's what he

00:53:17.200 wanted in an elected position that she 1.00

00:53:19.100 wasn't elected to

00:53:19.820 wow yeah so it worked her tactic worked 1.00

00:53:23.460 perfectly

00:53:23.820 um you write that you begged police

00:53:26.940 department officials and city officials

00:53:29.120 to correct the lies what did they tell

00:53:32.000 you

00:53:32.280 the response i got back from the

00:53:36.280 department was

00:53:37.220 this will we cannot set

00:53:40.260 precedent for future cases so my

00:53:44.660 response was so we're going to let the

00:53:46.760 city burn because you're scared of

00:53:48.720 setting a precedent and number one

00:53:50.840 their precedents change you know with

00:53:53.000 the wind whatever suits them they

00:53:55.260 change all the time so there's nothing

00:53:57.420 in stone that says you cannot you know

00:53:59.600 debunk the the lies that are out there

00:54:02.120 but they chose to correct the record

00:54:03.640 yeah and the same with city council

00:54:06.120 president you know he was a former cop

00:54:07.920 he uh he trained me actually he was one

00:54:11.120 of our trainers in the academy and i

00:54:12.540 reached out to him he said david this

00:54:14.140 is these are all the facts these are all

00:54:16.580 the lies number one and listed like

00:54:18.300 seven or eight things then i said these

00:54:20.380 are the facts man we we've got all these

00:54:23.160 things lined up that that's that there's

00:54:25.080 proof of and he said man the mayor's a

00:54:27.680 coward i'll get out there monday and tell 0.77

00:54:29.640 the truth in a press conference never

00:54:31.580 happened matter of fact he ended up going

00:54:33.180 on tv and and basically bashing what we

00:54:37.120 did or saying what we did was wrong with

00:54:38.380 this no knock after i'd already told him

00:54:40.340 it wasn't a no knock so he knew the facts

00:54:42.720 and he just he just he was his goal was

00:54:45.260 to run for mayor this time around and i

00:54:48.000 think he was just using that to appease the

00:54:50.280 community that he thought man they're they're

00:54:51.880 behind me on this one so i'll keep pushing

00:54:53.860 this narrative yeah you were an easy

00:54:55.460 stepping stone to step on and shove you

00:54:57.200 under the water uh without any care for how

00:55:00.020 that might affect you or the threats it

00:55:03.460 might generate against you uh which i i will

00:55:06.360 get to but first let's just while we're on

00:55:07.840 the topic of the media and it's you know

00:55:09.920 rushed to judgment it takes me to gma that's

00:55:12.680 the one interview you gave before now you

00:55:14.680 went on you spoke with michael strahan we've

00:55:16.980 teed up a little bit of the interview and

00:55:18.600 then at the back half of the soundbite we

00:55:20.860 have them talking about it on set without

00:55:23.420 you um so let's watch that and then we'll

00:55:25.960 talk about it are you racist no let's

00:55:30.040 address the fact that just because you're

00:55:31.880 black you're a threat it's not the case 0.99

00:55:33.240 i'm not scared of you well that's that's

00:55:34.820 how black men feel that's how black women 0.98

00:55:37.780 feel but does that make it real you look at

00:55:40.120 a george floyd what happened to him is

00:55:42.320 tragic it was horrible everybody looked at

00:55:44.740 that and said wrong bad disgusting and what

00:55:50.820 happens they end up getting locked up in my

00:55:54.060 opinion george floyd was not a model citizen

00:55:55.960 it's very hard for me to see here here george

00:55:59.540 floyd died of a open overdose he died because

00:56:02.300 someone was kneeling on his neck for a minute and

00:56:04.000 i agree with that in regards of him being a

00:56:05.720 model citizen or not he didn't deserve that no

00:56:07.840 one deserved that nobody said he did so i just

00:56:10.240 i just demonized it i said it's horrible and i

00:56:12.880 asked him about the leaked email that he

00:56:14.760 sent out to his fellow officers where he

00:56:16.400 used the term to describe protesters used the

00:56:19.020 term peaceful protesters when he and he also

00:56:22.380 called them thugs frustrating that time to

00:56:24.820 hear some of the things that were said we

00:56:26.700 have there's a lot more there's so many

00:56:28.160 discrepancies there's so many discrepancies

00:56:30.160 again he called protesters thugs and he said

00:56:33.860 eric peaceful and that was the question how

00:56:37.120 are they peaceful but yet thugs and then

00:56:39.240 what he said about george floyd as well was was

00:56:41.880 yeah way in my opinion left field had nothing

00:56:45.820 to do with this trying to bring the character of

00:56:47.960 someone into the situation where they were

00:56:50.400 basically killed made no sense and at the end

00:56:52.540 of the day and then it's that black woman is 0.99

00:56:55.220 dead yes unnecessarily

00:56:57.180 why doesn't robin roberts go clean up the mess 1.00

00:57:02.260 she made with jussie smollett before she starts

00:57:05.080 lecturing someone on how to respond to questions

00:57:08.040 i mean the nerve of these people who know

00:57:10.680 absolutely nothing absolutely nothing about law

00:57:13.440 enforcement nothing to sit there in judgment of

00:57:15.940 you why doesn't george stefanopoulos go explain

00:57:18.440 to us why he was the one creating war rooms to

00:57:20.780 attack bill clinton's sexual harassment and assault

00:57:23.420 victims before he passes judgment on you and the

00:57:26.900 way you communicated the unmitigated gall they know

00:57:30.660 nothing nothing about law enforcement nothing about the

00:57:33.780 law and yet they sit on there on that set as pundits

00:57:37.020 judging a guest after he did them the courtesy of giving

00:57:39.960 them an exclusive interview to me as a member of the media

00:57:43.200 john it's infuriating that infuriates me what did what did

00:57:46.940 you feel after you saw them do that to you

00:57:49.240 i was ticked off i was mad because we talked for three hours

00:57:53.980 three and a half hours something like that non-stop no break

00:57:56.260 anything and there was a there's a lot of good conversation

00:57:59.300 there are a lot of things that could have been positive for

00:58:02.360 police and public relations and they chose to leave all that

00:58:06.200 out and take things number one they didn't play them in the

00:58:09.020 correct order they spun it around they edited and you know

00:58:13.000 the fact that that when i look at him and say so just because

00:58:18.120 you feel something doesn't make it a fact he's like what's

00:58:20.720 real to me and i said doesn't matter if it's real to you if

00:58:23.420 it's not reality doesn't matter what you feel and so we went

00:58:28.360 back and forth on a lot of things and for him to sit there and and

00:58:32.380 when we're done shake my hand and say i think you're a good person

00:58:35.840 and then go on tv and say that stuff and i understand he was probably

00:58:41.340 scared to lose his job you know as a black man if he goes on

00:58:43.980 there and goes well you know i kind of understand where

00:58:47.240 he was coming from he did get shot and he was trying to save his life

00:58:50.520 you know he didn't go there to kill brianna but you know he he just

00:58:54.480 didn't say that couldn't say it wasn't brave enough to say it i

00:58:57.040 don't know the words for it the also your email to your fellow

00:59:01.520 officers taken out of context in which you're saying to your fellow

00:59:04.580 cops i just want i want to tell you something i want to tell you

00:59:09.160 that and you're right you do not deserve to be in this position the position

00:59:12.780 that allows thugs to get in your face and yell curse and degrade you throw

00:59:18.100 bricks bottles and urine on you and expect you to do nothing it goes against

00:59:23.200 everything we were taught in the academy the position that you if you make a

00:59:27.240 mistake you do not deserve to be in this position it goes on from there

00:59:29.940 that's what you were trying to say they make it sound like you

00:59:33.100 had absolutely no tolerance for any sort of peaceful protest like actual

00:59:37.240 peaceful protest you're clearly talking about

00:59:39.320 violent protests attacking cops right and then at the end at the very end i

00:59:44.620 even go on to say do not make the mistake of letting them bait you into

00:59:48.640 something basically don't fall for it be professional don't lose your job over

00:59:54.120 these idiots and and you know again all that gets overlooked or taken out of 0.88

00:59:58.120 context to me it's so maddening because they're part of the problem they're part

01:00:02.180 of the reason we're having escalating murder rates in our major cities right

01:00:05.020 now because they help demoralize the cops they help the cops convince the cops to

01:00:09.620 sit back because what's going to happen to them they're going to get the

01:00:12.120 mattingly treatment they're going to get bashed by every corner from the vice

01:00:15.420 president to george clooney to oprah to the entire cast of gma even if they

01:00:19.980 reach out to them even if they get shot in a life-threatening injury none of it

01:00:23.460 matters they will be bashed right yeah it's it's a bad it's a bad catch 22 to be

01:00:29.200 in because you do sign up this job to help people you do and because who else is

01:00:34.540 going to take the ridicule in the in the situations you're put in for not great

01:00:40.100 pay it's not horrible pay but it's not great you're not going to get rich off of

01:00:43.160 it and so if i'm willing to do all that and then nobody has my back or when i do

01:00:49.460 what you trained me to do and then you're going to prosecute me for it you know who

01:00:54.320 wants who wants that you were doxed by blm that put out your home address all of

01:01:01.000 the cops involved their home contact information i mentioned you received

01:01:04.700 death threats at one point you received information that there had been a quote

01:01:07.820 credible threat per an informant they'd been told on your life that even a

01:01:13.220 fifty thousand dollar reward had been placed for your harm or death and that

01:01:21.200 there was an fbi investigation opened up into some motorcycle groups possibly that

01:01:27.400 may have been behind that one motorcycle group involved what i read from your book

01:01:32.900 is that brianna taylor's mother was a member of it and her boyfriend i guess was the

01:01:36.000 head of it what happened with that fbi investigation well after 10 we think 10

01:01:43.160 days 10 11 days from the best date range we can get from them that that

01:01:47.900 investigation was dropped the the word in the office was the optics look bad

01:01:52.100 going after you know the victim of a national or a national victim's mother and i i had

01:02:00.460 fbi clearance at this point i'd worked with the fbi some of my guys were on task force

01:02:04.920 with the fbi so i know how they work i know that what it takes to get a case

01:02:09.680 open i know that once a case is open they don't like shutting them because it's

01:02:13.940 hard to regenerate that number to get the case back open

01:02:16.480 so it's not it's it's not like a local local thing where you can just pull a

01:02:20.780 number and you open a case and then you can close it out then if you need to

01:02:23.980 reopen it do it you know they've got to go through a huge chain of command up

01:02:26.800 through bc so when they when i found out that this case was closed after 10 11

01:02:31.780 days i was just mind blown i knew at that point they had they had no

01:02:35.800 intentions of following up on these threats even though one of them came

01:02:40.120 from a federal informant and the other came from one of our local informants two

01:02:44.220 separate informants with the same information that they were able to

01:02:47.680 corroborate and then due to the to the optics or the political pressure they just

01:02:55.060 said you know what we're not we're not going to touch this it's too much for us

01:02:58.440 i know you write in the book that there's this woman amy hess uh was you 0.98

01:03:03.520 thought she was a liberal and she may have pressured the feds to drop it she

01:03:06.540 did we reached out to her she said quote after being briefed on the alleged

01:03:10.340 murder for hire plot in the summer of 2020 recognizing the potential conflict of

01:03:14.560 interest for the lmpd the louisville police department i recommended the fbi or

01:03:19.480 another law enforcement agency look into the matter and assess the credibility of

01:03:22.400 the info i have absolutely no doubt the resulting investigation which did not

01:03:26.580 substantiate the allegations was conducted objectively thoroughly and

01:03:29.900 independently so that was what how she sees it let me ask you this john before

01:03:33.160 i let you go go fund me so they allowed fundraisers for brianna taylor's family

01:03:40.200 uh for kenneth walker too i can't remember whether he got one yes he did he's got two

01:03:45.420 of them he's got two of them one of your friends said let me get one for you you

01:03:49.160 said no he said john you're gonna lose your job

01:03:52.160 everybody's losing their job you know you you retired but the other guys got fired got

01:03:55.500 tried and so finally you say okay fine and what happened it had been up maybe

01:04:01.400 five hours and uh it was doing pretty good had a lot of momentum going picking up

01:04:06.120 i mean i was kind of surprised honestly and all of a sudden it got taken down

01:04:11.020 people are texting me going hey where's where's this at i was like i don't know i

01:04:14.320 didn't i hadn't even been following it so i'm not sure

01:04:16.480 um so i reached out to the to the couple that started it and i said do you know

01:04:21.280 anything about this and they said yeah they they sent us an email saying we

01:04:24.900 violated the rules and i said what rules did you violate

01:04:28.840 exactly and they're like we don't know and so they asked go fund me they said

01:04:33.080 what rules do we violate and they wouldn't tell them

01:04:34.860 even though so we scoured through the posting and there was nothing in there

01:04:39.000 there was no um negative talk i mean it was all about

01:04:42.740 hey this officer was shot in the line of duty and he's trying to heal

01:04:46.460 let's support him and his family so they can get back on their feet and it was

01:04:50.740 just gone and uh again yeah kenneth walker has two of them he had one for his

01:04:54.700 legal defense and one for his civil defense and and people like tyler perry

01:04:58.460 gave a hundred grand to that i'm going you know my goodness this is a guy that

01:05:02.000 supposedly supports police yet where's where's george clooney's donation to

01:05:07.140 you after misleading the public telling everyone that you shot her in her bed

01:05:10.860 where's his apology him and jennifer lawrence both both kentucky natives you know

01:05:16.240 both hung me out to dry it's just it's whatever i don't want his money

01:05:20.500 well what do you do now well how do you you have a pension right so

01:05:25.040 is that how you support yourself and you know i guess we should close it out with

01:05:28.960 how life has changed as a result of all this

01:05:31.520 life's changed big time because we we don't live anywhere near where we used to

01:05:36.260 we're a couple hours away from from louisville so you know i've still got

01:05:39.900 family and friends all there so it's that part's been difficult um

01:05:44.360 our son's been uprooted several times i think we moved a total of six times in

01:05:48.960 one year trying to figure out where we were going

01:05:51.320 to end up and again the department on that was just

01:05:54.780 like good luck buddy you know we don't have anywhere for you

01:05:57.680 you know find a place and um so all these things that kind of

01:06:02.820 culminated into where we're at today you know god's blessed us i have i don't i

01:06:07.580 don't have complaints on that end you know i'm healthier now

01:06:10.020 i've been able to spend time with my family but you know with this book

01:06:13.620 coming out i hope people 12 seconds in the dark i hope people

01:06:16.460 take this and not as a pity for john i could care less i don't need your pity

01:06:20.300 i want them to look at this as a warning hey we better pay attention we better

01:06:25.600 stop doing going down the path we're going on or you're going to have a law

01:06:28.880 enforcement in this country that that you're not going to want we're going

01:06:32.040 to look like canada where these guys are just going to do whatever the

01:06:34.900 government says because they're scared of losing their job or scared of

01:06:37.260 getting indicted and we need to support law enforcement we need to vote people

01:06:41.480 in office that are are going to uphold the constitution and the laws and we

01:06:46.700 need to follow these judges these judges are letting these guys out and it's

01:06:50.180 nothing but repeat repeat offenses by the same people and then when action

01:06:54.440 needs to be taken against these thugs these lowlifes then all of a sudden 1.00

01:06:58.540 the cops are the bad guys because it took force to do it so i think our lives

01:07:03.400 changed dramatically but i'm praying that we can take this change and help

01:07:07.980 other people who are in these similar situations just come up for air and go

01:07:12.000 okay everything's going to be okay we'll get through this

01:07:14.380 if you want to support john you can do so again simon and schuster tried to stop

01:07:19.800 you from seeing this book thanks to the daily wire you can it's called 12

01:07:23.680 seconds in the in the dark john thank you for your service thank you for

01:07:27.220 telling your story all the best to you i would appreciate you having me you bet

01:07:31.660 coming up we have the new york times is david let leonhardt who's here to talk

01:07:36.080 covid and his latest reporting on omicron which the left is bashing him for

01:07:40.940 senior writer and author of the morning newsletter for the new york times hugely

01:07:50.760 hugely popular over 5 million subscribers as i understand it david leonhardt has

01:07:55.680 been an excellent reporter on covid putting fact-based coverage out to his

01:08:00.600 readers imagine that lovely and now he's facing backlash for it of course

01:08:05.440 welcome back to the show david thanks for having me it's nice to be back

01:08:09.200 oh it's our pleasure so i mean my friends on the left and the right love reading

01:08:13.680 you and i see you as a sane voice in the

01:08:16.440 craziness and have for quite some time now and of course that's going to come

01:08:19.780 with pushback right because one side or both sides they will not like your

01:08:24.300 little truth bombs and uh the latest one had to do with whether these

01:08:29.700 precautions that we've been taking some of them like social distancing and

01:08:33.400 masking those are two of the you know favorites actually did anything did they

01:08:39.100 actually work were they meaningful ways to quote stop the spread and what did

01:08:46.000 you opine what did you find and then we'll talk about the reaction

01:08:49.140 so covid i mean like so many things in america today covid has just become so

01:08:53.800 polarized right and so the partisan point on one side is masking

01:08:58.200 doesn't work at all it's all irrelevant and the the partisan talking point on the

01:09:02.520 other side is you know if only we wear our masks enough and are diligent enough we

01:09:07.520 can stop the spread of covid and when you actually look at the data the truth

01:09:11.580 ends up falling um into neither one of those camps

01:09:15.040 so their masking does work in the sense that there are repeated studies that

01:09:19.860 show if you and i are in an indoor place having a conversation and one of us has

01:09:24.020 covid and we're not masked we're more likely to get it than if one of us has

01:09:27.980 covid and we are masked the question is how big is that effect and i think that a

01:09:32.800 lot of americans predominantly on the political left have have come to think that

01:09:37.720 masking is sort of everything and yet when you look at the data you actually see

01:09:41.940 that during the omicron wave masking doesn't seem to have had a huge effect

01:09:45.980 and as technical and as complicated as all this stuff is you don't have to

01:09:50.380 actually dig into incredibly fine data to get the main point which is when you

01:09:56.140 look at a city like seattle or a city like san francisco or a city like boston

01:10:02.560 where there has been much much more masking when people have been going into the

01:10:06.220 office less when they've been eating out much much less relative to cities like

01:10:10.800 charlotte and tampa and even austin texas which we think of as a liberal city but is

01:10:15.300 in texas um there have been huge differences in how much people are masking and how much

01:10:19.560 people are eating in restaurants but the difference in how much covid spread there

01:10:23.560 was is really difficult to find and so it looks like that omicron is just so

01:10:28.940 contagious that um the kind of masking that we've done has a small effect but only a small

01:10:36.520 effect it's like we masked back up when delta hit and then we just never unmasked we just never

01:10:44.780 paused again to say wait does this make sense do we need to be doing this yes and i think it may

01:10:52.000 have made sense at the height of the omicron wave because again um i know some people disagree

01:10:57.220 with us probably some of your listeners but look masking there's a reason why doctors wear masks in

01:11:02.340 hospitals there's a reason why which is dealt with there's a reason why asia which has dealt

01:11:07.840 with these sort of contagious flus more in the last 30 years than other regions there's a reason

01:11:13.200 why people there think masking can make sense masking really can work omicron was so contagious

01:11:18.340 that it had only a small effect when our hospitals are full when we're really at a crisis point a small

01:11:25.660 effect i would argue is worth it but when that's not the case and it's not the case now our hospitals

01:11:30.360 are not full anymore i do think there's really a question of is masking worth the downsides is it

01:11:35.200 worth the fact that every single conversation you have is harder when you're wearing a mask is it

01:11:41.000 worth the fact that i know you've pointed this out when i've been on your show before your glasses fog

01:11:44.620 um uh is it worth the fact that it's harder to communicate for kids with learning disabilities

01:11:49.280 is it worth the fact that it's harder to communicate for people who are hard of hearing

01:11:52.680 and so it's just hard every form of communication is harder i quoted an expert i think she's a

01:11:58.700 psychologist who's who said basically talking with a mask on it's like having a cell phone conversation

01:12:03.860 when you're in a bad service area um and so is that worth it when our hospitals aren't full and the

01:12:09.980 effect is small i think that's highly debatable well and also i'll tell you um so we're in here

01:12:15.140 we're in montana because my kids are on spring break and um one of the inappropriate things we did

01:12:20.860 while here was i showed them the movie contagion you know with uh matt damon gwyneth paldro and um

01:12:27.360 jude law and uh totally i said we're gonna watch something definitely inappropriate and disturbing

01:12:32.380 and they said cool um i mean and it was i never would have showed that to them during the middle

01:12:38.820 of the pandemic but now that we're at the place we're at i could put it in perspective and they

01:12:42.740 could understand because there's just so many things in that movie that are predictive of how

01:12:46.340 things would go you know during the pandemic we just went through like how people would react and

01:12:51.060 what we would do and so on and so forth but if we had a disease like that one right where it was

01:12:56.620 like a 30 death rate 30 of the people who get it are going to die um people would have been masked

01:13:03.000 to the nth degree in every setting there wouldn't have been pushback by parents to the masking in

01:13:08.940 school that people would have been genuinely scared blankness and less and would have complied i think a

01:13:15.520 lot more quickly and happily and you know without complaint but the very fact that especially with

01:13:22.000 respect to children we thank god did not have that in covid is what i think led people to get

01:13:28.440 to their breaking points on it and start to really speak out and and you know it's i mean to some

01:13:33.560 extent i'm not saying that covid even before the vaccines was like the movie that you watched

01:13:38.260 but covid was much closer to the movie that you watched before the vaccines than it is now and another

01:13:44.200 way to make that point is look before we had vaccines when someone who was 70 years old

01:13:50.000 or someone who had underlying health issues when people like that were for them when covid presented

01:13:55.980 a threat that was more serious than anything else that we confront in life then there was a really

01:14:01.920 strong argument for masking not just for them but for the rest of us to protect them the vaccines

01:14:06.800 have completely changed the calculus on this the vaccines provide an enormous amount of protection

01:14:12.360 statistically they provide the most protection for the elderly even though they don't provide

01:14:17.080 complete protection and so i think it's a version of what you're saying now that we're at the point

01:14:21.980 where anyone who chooses to protect themselves from this horrible virus with these extremely effective

01:14:28.980 vaccines um can do so and if if you're someone who's gotten the vaccines but haven't been boosted i would urge

01:14:35.200 you do all the research you can on boosting they boosting saves lives and so because people can

01:14:41.000 protect themselves because the people who are suffering the worst of covid today are overwhelmingly

01:14:46.140 choosing to expose themselves by not being vaccinated that puts us in a different situation

01:14:52.160 in terms of say should we be asking six-year-olds to wear masks yeah and or in new york city where

01:14:58.520 they're still making under five-year-olds you know two to five-year-olds wear masks why why stop it

01:15:05.620 that's insanity and that's exactly the group that needs to have faces visible so they can learn social

01:15:11.440 behavior and social cues and proper language it's madness and there's just not a lot i mean i mean

01:15:17.320 that not only do young kids need to learn social cues and i think if we're talking about just a couple

01:15:23.680 weeks of masking it's not going to upset anyone's social cues but you know we're now moving into year

01:15:28.520 three of this pandemic so we're not just talking about a couple weeks and covid is overwhelmingly mild

01:15:33.300 i i've said this many times um if you have a child and you put your child in a vehicle today

01:15:39.980 you will be exposing them to more risk than um covid presents to that child today um children uh face many

01:15:48.240 larger risks through normal daily life than covid presents to them and so given that um uh it's just

01:15:56.220 really hard i get the psychological reasons um that many people are in favor of masks for young kids

01:16:02.880 i think it should be i'm assuming you would agree with this it should be parents rights to mask their

01:16:06.980 own kids if they so choose it is hard to find a scientific basis for a mask mandate that says

01:16:12.960 all young children must wear masks yeah and it's hard to find actually a legal basis that would allow

01:16:18.680 these ongoing emergency powers you know acclaimed by the mayor there's a lawsuit on that which we're

01:16:23.840 going to be having an interview on uh i think tomorrow um okay so were you surprised then knowing i mean

01:16:30.000 you definitely know how controversial it is especially on your side we talked about that

01:16:36.280 the last i was just writing for the new york times to say things like you're saying were you surprised

01:16:40.320 at the backlash to you i think it was your march 3rd piece to where like new york magazine was it they

01:16:44.660 did a whole long piece citing all these experts telling us what a lunatic you are lunatic fringe and

01:16:52.900 how you're hurting people and you just underestimate the risk and you know he just doesn't get it

01:16:57.300 i kind of laughed because of course i'm probably more used to that than you are but how were you

01:17:02.780 surprised i wasn't surprised i mean i've been doing this a long time and i i really do think that

01:17:09.740 debate even passionate debate is healthy for a democracy i wish we didn't have the kind of debate

01:17:16.220 where people so quickly got personal i wish we didn't have the kind of debate where people figure

01:17:21.480 out what team they're on red or blue and then they have they fit all their opinions to that team

01:17:26.140 um but i guess in some ways i wasn't surprised i mean some of it i could laugh off because it's

01:17:31.800 so ridiculous and others of it i just think look these are important issues and we really should

01:17:37.220 be having a fulsome debate about it and you know the fact is that that i think a lot of people want

01:17:42.340 to imagine that if only we can find the number one expert they will tell us what to do but that's

01:17:47.520 not the way it works in a democracy i spent a ton of time talking to experts there are experts who think

01:17:52.100 we should have mass mandates on children for many more months there are experts who think that is

01:17:58.620 madness and so it's not like there is expert opinion on any of one of these any one of these things and

01:18:04.300 what i've sort of found is a little bit sad is you know if you find out that someone hasn't been

01:18:10.080 vaccinated which is to me a position that is both dangerous to that person um and it's just not in

01:18:15.520 keeping with reality the odds are overwhelming that that person is a republican and if you find someone

01:18:20.940 who is irrationally afraid of covid and wants to make everyone wear masks in perpetuity the odds

01:18:26.460 are overwhelming that that person is a democrat and there really is nothing about the philosophy

01:18:31.080 of conservatism or progressivism that should point to those views and i do wish people were a little

01:18:37.000 bit more willing to look at the facts for themselves instead of sort of taking a view about covid off the

01:18:43.060 shelf but if in the sort of course of that people are going to fight about it um my attitude is if

01:18:49.240 they're fighting about what i'm writing i'm i'm i'm grateful that they're reading what i'm writing

01:18:52.960 yeah you're still winning but soon if you keep this up you're going to be like me where before they

01:18:57.180 introduce you they have to say controversial journalist david leonhardt controversial you get

01:19:01.920 that label like oh and i kind of like it so like it's something i don't know intriguing go on um

01:19:08.980 can i ask you i have a couple questions i want to ask you about this um i've had people say to me i

01:19:14.640 you know we've talked about i i had double vax and i got boosted and all that uh and i had covid so

01:19:19.920 it's like okay i have it all um i've had people say how do you know the vaccines prevent severe

01:19:26.680 illness or death how do you know that if you know i had a mild case right and i and and people would

01:19:33.060 say that's because you had all those shots and i would say yeah or i don't know i have no idea i'm

01:19:39.800 healthy i'm 51 like i i don't know that the vaccine helped me have a very mild case but you

01:19:45.820 tell me like for people who doubt that the mild outcomes are attributable to the vaccines right

01:19:52.400 what's the answer to that i mean so first of all i would say doesn't this question apply to

01:19:57.440 everything right i mean when you throw a ball up in the air how do you know it's going to come back

01:20:01.840 down right how do we know that it's safer uh to drive sober than to drive falling down drunk um i mean

01:20:09.380 these are these are the deepest questions of humanity how do we know god exists um and so how

01:20:14.020 do we know i mean to some extent it's all unknowable um i think the answer is when you go around and you

01:20:19.620 look at every place in the world that reports these statistics um i spent a lot of time looking at the

01:20:25.040 data in utah not exactly a liberal haven i spent a lot of time looking at the data in seattle which

01:20:30.860 is a very liberal place i spent a lot of time looking at the data in new york city and in minnesota

01:20:35.400 these are places that happen to report outcomes by vaccination status um so do other countries like

01:20:42.300 britain and israel and when you look at that data the message is entirely consistent in every place

01:20:49.220 the risk of something bad like hospitalization and death is many many times higher if you are

01:20:56.020 unvaccinated than if you're vaccinated and then it's even lower if you're boosted than if you're

01:21:01.280 vaccinated and so kind of all over the world the lines look the same your risk of having to go to

01:21:06.240 the hospital if you're boosted basically looks like a straight line at the bottom of the graph

01:21:10.480 people may remember this from math class it looks like the x-axis it's basically zero if you're

01:21:15.420 vaccinated it's just a little bit above that and if you're unvaccinated the odds of you having a really

01:21:21.020 bad covid outcome are very high the people who are dying from covid are overwhelmingly unvaccinated

01:21:27.660 people and so the way we know it didn't have covid i mean that's the other thing right because natural

01:21:31.920 immunity does have a role here next natural immunity does have a role here everything i've read suggests

01:21:36.980 that um vaccination immunity is stronger than national isn't natural immunity um but yeah

01:21:42.120 wasn't there the israeli study that said natural immunity was 27 times greater than vaccine immunity

01:21:47.400 i mean you know you can find a study one study showing anything on any of this stuff my reading of it

01:21:53.680 is that if you told me i could have only one form of immunity i would choose vaccinated immunity the

01:21:58.280 good thing is we can all choose to have vaccinated immunity whether or not we've had covid or not so

01:22:02.720 well i'm just saying i think like when we look at the number when we say the unvaccinated are the most

01:22:06.440 and i i confirm i i also see the same thing you're saying when you look at the people who are dying of

01:22:11.040 covid or you look at the people who are hospitalized because of covid there are way more of those who are

01:22:17.560 unvaccinated than there are who who have been vaccinated that is a fact but you just don't know

01:22:23.100 when i see unvaccinated i always want to ask myself then like there should be another category for

01:22:27.700 unvaxxed and never had covid because i would think most of those people are in that category as opposed

01:22:32.860 to unvaxxed and recently had covid too i think what i would say to someone who said who someone who said

01:22:38.360 to me i've had covid and i don't want to get vaccinated i would say the two things i would ask yourself are

01:22:43.660 why don't you want to get vaccinated there is basically no evidence of there being any problems

01:22:51.060 of vaccination i there is there some uncertainty sure this vaccine hasn't been around for 20 years

01:22:56.180 but many other vaccines have and so i don't see any reason to fear the vaccine other than like

01:23:02.320 the same way it's a little weird to step on an airplane like i'm in a metal tube hurtling you know

01:23:07.160 many miles above the ground i get it it's like weird to have someone stick a needle in you i i totally

01:23:11.840 get it it's weird well and we just don't know like what does it do to our immune response what is

01:23:15.800 like there are people who have vaccine injuries and you know you don't want to be one of them so if

01:23:19.780 you're at low risk from covid you know like whatever you're 16 or your kid is you're thinking

01:23:24.180 i just don't want to take the chance but i think that's paralyzing megan because there's lots of

01:23:29.740 stuff we don't know about i mean how do you know when you get in your car this morning and turn it on

01:23:33.980 that your car isn't gonna blast some horrible fume at you from the engine and kill you you don't but

01:23:39.640 there's no reason to think that it's going to and i really am deeply worried that many people out

01:23:44.660 there are confusing so what i see on the left is people think they can get risk in their life down

01:23:50.600 to zero and so they're saying let's do that with covid and let's put on masks and let's not go out

01:23:55.120 to eat and i think that's just fundamentally wrong and i think what people on the right are saying is

01:23:59.460 there's this uncertainty about the vaccines but the uncertainty about the vaccines look like the

01:24:04.160 kind of uncertainty that we accept every day when we do all kinds of things that we don't

01:24:09.120 absolutely know how they work all the evidence can i ask you a question about that i hear you 100

01:24:14.320 but i have a question about these ongoing boosters because even just it was a today or yesterday pfizer

01:24:20.120 said you're going to need a fourth booster i mean a fourth shot a fourth shot um and i i do have

01:24:27.480 concerns about messing with my immune system this much you know that's four shots and i had covid so

01:24:33.940 that's five unnecessary well i guess one was beyond my control but interferences with my own immune

01:24:40.460 system and i actually spoke to a doctor about this she was a rheumatologist and she said there there is

01:24:47.280 reason to question just how many of these boosters would be okay and to be a little concerned about

01:24:53.580 messing with your immune system over and over and over in this way i mean rheumatologists deal with

01:24:59.500 uh you know compromised immune like autoimmune disorders so she that's why i asked her i mean

01:25:05.260 do you get the yearly flu vaccine no i do um so i'm already messing with my immune system i mean i take

01:25:13.280 aspirin um i take antibiotics when i get sick um uh uh i know many people in my life who have pill boxes

01:25:20.680 because they have serious heart problems uh i mean all these things are messing with our bodies statins

01:25:25.700 mess with your bodies anti-cholesterol medicines mess with your body i really would put this in

01:25:29.800 the same category as all those and if someone said to me look i'm a christian scientist i don't i don't

01:25:35.120 take medicines um uh then uh that's not the choice i would make but then i would get this idea of i don't

01:25:41.560 want to mess with my body but you know in a country where we drink coffee and we drink alcohol and we

01:25:46.760 eat sugar and we take aspirin and we not exactly the temple i just you know like we're well beyond

01:25:53.780 kind of you know eating grass and and and killing animals and roasting them over the fire i put this

01:25:59.620 in the same in the same category uh get out of my head stop that um what about one of the things that

01:26:06.200 really bothers me about where we are right now we have a moment to sort of look back and say

01:26:09.940 what have we learned is the collapse in faith and trust in our public health officials by more than

01:26:17.560 half the country you know i've read this in the times i've seen it in some of the polling you've

01:26:21.760 done and i've just been watching you know the the wider polls people don't trust anthony fauci

01:26:26.760 they don't trust the cdc they don't trust rochelle walensky majorities now and i think they have

01:26:33.560 been exposed as far more partisan and tied to big pharma than i ever knew i don't i didn't go into

01:26:41.500 this two years ago fully understanding that but certainly i mean they've proven it what am i wrong

01:26:46.960 i'm sorry to interrupt no go ahead i mean i've written some pretty critical things about the cdc and

01:26:53.340 and dr walensky some of her decisions i don't think of her as partisan or enthralled to the

01:26:59.100 pharmaceutical industry i mean i really do think i think they've made mistakes but i really do think

01:27:04.680 these are people who are trying their hardest to get this right crazy talk and who are fallible

01:27:11.280 she is so partisan let me just give you a quick a quick response first of all the fact that she 1.00

01:27:15.360 wouldn't criticize sotomayor for her gross overstatement of the number of children who

01:27:18.460 have been hospitalized because of covid was 100 partisan she 100 would have done that if it had

01:27:23.240 been clarence thomas understating the death numbers instead of sotomayor overstating them that's why

01:27:28.180 don't we have a direct comparison did she i honestly don't know so this is i'm not trying

01:27:31.880 to score points this is the classic i'm asking a question i don't know the answer to did she

01:27:35.200 criticize gorsuch for not wearing a mask on the bench which she wasn't asked that advice at the

01:27:39.780 time she was she wasn't asked that she was asked about sotomayor and it's her job to correct public

01:27:44.000 health misinformation and she declined she didn't want to she want to go there okay but that's just

01:27:48.020 why i mean we could go on forever you know what i will i will look at the transcript of that that's a

01:27:51.660 fair point she's taking her marching orders from the white house that's what we hear that 1.00

01:27:56.080 that she and the teachers unions the teachers unions that that the cdc mandated them the ongoing

01:28:02.460 masking in schools because the teachers union went in there and said you have to do it no non-partisan

01:28:07.200 would be doing that well i mean the cdc has removed a whole bunch of this mask advice right and so and

01:28:15.500 it's what they eventually got around to it doesn't mean that they weren't under the influence of

01:28:19.460 partisans when they did it for so long unnecessarily but when you think about you know you mentioned

01:28:24.640 how angry some people have gotten about some of the things that i've written i mean there are a huge

01:28:30.440 number of democrats today who disagree with what the cdc has now done with with loosening things and so

01:28:37.440 i i would say i have yet to see evidence that those officials have behaved in partisan ways what i find sad

01:28:46.720 is that we live in a country where kind of everything tends toward the partisan and so because we have

01:28:53.500 these divides over covid that very much are partisan most of the criticism of the officials tends to come

01:29:00.480 from republicans and as a result they end up looking partisan because they are criticized from one side

01:29:06.960 even if they are not partisan and the way i would and i think we have an honest disagreement here the way

01:29:12.540 i would describe them is fallible i think they've made some significant mistakes i think they've they've

01:29:17.880 played too much the cdc in particular into this notion of um trying to reduce covid risks so low

01:29:24.000 that they're not worried about other kinds of risks like mental health i really think they've made

01:29:28.580 mistakes they've been too slow to get tests out there the fda and the cdc they've been too slow to

01:29:33.760 give a formal approval to the vaccine so i can give you a long list of mistakes they made i don't see

01:29:39.120 those as as mistakes of partisanship i i see them as mistakes coming from other sources we definitely agree i

01:29:45.740 mean just agree to disagree on that one but i want to ask you this other about this other point there

01:29:50.520 was reporting today about i don't know if it's another variant but all these chinese factories

01:29:57.260 shutting down what do we know and yeah so are we looking at another variant that's what the pfizer

01:30:04.400 guy was saying yesterday he's like we're gonna get more variants they're coming so where do we stand

01:30:08.600 on that we are gonna get more variants so i would separate out of two different important things to

01:30:13.520 keep in mind here we are going to get more variants covid is is not over um uh and so uh i don't know

01:30:21.640 whether we're now headed into a new cycle where we're getting one um but covid is not over and we

01:30:27.080 shouldn't we shouldn't pretend that it's over i think the second thing is and um i think the problems

01:30:33.320 in china and hong kong are yet another sign of how well the vaccines work when you look at the numbers

01:30:40.420 in hong kong there are a shockingly large percentage of people who are not vaccinated when you look at

01:30:45.700 the quality of those chinese made vaccines they do not approach the effectiveness and the quality 1.00

01:30:51.980 of the vaccines from europe and the united states and so one of the reasons why we seem to be seeing

01:30:58.880 kind of a growing number of cases in some of these places is that again that the vaccines work and if

01:31:04.800 you are lucky enough to live in a country where you don't have to take sinovac but you can take

01:31:09.340 pfizer or you can take moderna or you can take j&j go do it i was talking to a pfizer uh somebody

01:31:17.960 senior at pfizer and uh just been in a personal conversation and i you know had my questions i said

01:31:22.960 of course you take the vaccine yes and would you give it to your children a hundred percent and that

01:31:27.740 always makes me feel better like they'll give it to their own children i know it's a simple point but

01:31:32.340 it resonated for me and maybe it will for the audience or maybe not you know what really when

01:31:37.660 you know what really sticks with me if we could i know we're beyond having a kind of bipartisan

01:31:41.400 compromise in this country on covid but if we could we would we would spend a lot less time masking

01:31:47.300 and we would get many many more people vaccinated and it's sort of sad last time you were on i don't

01:31:52.320 know why people just didn't listen right then and there slowly but surely they're starting to listen

01:31:56.880 to us it's a pleasure david thanks for coming on thanks for your kind words and thanks for having me

01:32:01.760 all right to be continued i want to tell you to make sure you download the show before tomorrow

01:32:05.100 because we've got senator rand paul joining us there's a lot to go over with him he's always

01:32:10.300 entertaining uh and spicy what do you think he would say about the loss of trust in public health

01:32:16.020 we're gonna ask him download the show in the meantime and subscribe to youtube see you tomorrow

01:32:19.900 thanks for listening to the megan kelly show no bs no agenda and no fear

01:32:31.760 thanks for listening to the megan kelly show no bs no bs no bs no bs no bs no bs no bs no bs no bs no bs no bs

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The Megyn Kelly Show - March 14, 2022

Exclusive Breonna Taylor Raid Details, and Omicron Reality, with Sgt. John Mattingly and David Leonhardt ｜ Ep. 279

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