The Megyn Kelly Show - Explosive Moments From Tyler Robinson Hearing, and Trump's FIFA Controversy, with Geragos, Murphy, Aronberg, Merchant, Frei, and Sage Steele ｜ Ep. 1353

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00:01:00.520 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:12.200 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Hope you had a wonderful

00:01:16.100 July 4th. More on our celebration in just a bit. We have a can't miss show today. We're going to

00:01:23.780 be reacting live to the preliminary hearing of Tyler Robinson in Utah today. He is the man

00:01:30.580 charged in the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Erica's there. Charlie's parents are there,

00:01:37.720 Robert and Catherine. And this is going to be a very emotional week. I think, you know,

00:01:43.080 quite clearly for Charlie's loved ones and possibly for you. And I think for me too,

00:01:49.800 This is going to be a rough one, a rough five days as we hear great details about how this

00:01:57.880 went down, what happened to Charlie, and what happened at Utah Valley University last September.

00:02:08.180 This is not a small hearing.

00:02:10.360 As I said, it's five days expected to be.

00:02:12.420 It's essentially a mini trial with witnesses and cross-examinations, except instead of

00:02:17.740 proving their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Prosecutors must only establish probable cause

00:02:22.160 probable cause. The Tyler Robinson was the shooter and murderer of Charlie Kirk. As long

00:02:28.160 as they do that, the case will head to trial at a later date. Now, typically prosecutors can do

00:02:33.620 this. They always have to establish probable cause against a defendant. Typically you can do it

00:02:38.200 through a preliminary hearing like this, or you can get a grand jury indictment though in Utah,

00:02:42.740 the grand juries are far less utilized than in most places. We did not know that, but that's why

00:02:49.840 they're seeking the preliminary hearing because that's their typical go-to out in Utah, we're

00:02:56.480 told. So that's why the prosecutors are doing this. And they're not phoning anything in quite

00:03:02.360 clearly because five days for a preliminary hearing is quite a bit. They are calling witnesses.

00:03:08.900 There's somebody on the stand right now. We actually are going to stream the whole thing

00:03:11.600 live on our YouTube page, which we are right now. During the course of the show, when we're live

00:03:17.100 doing the show on SiriusXM, as you guys, I think, know, we do our show live on SiriusXM channel 111

00:03:24.840 between 12 and 2 Eastern time, Monday through Friday. And then later we release the show

00:03:29.360 as a YouTube program and on podcast. So what we're going to do while we're live on SiriusXM

00:03:35.520 is monitor the live hearing update live as we go with anything important and then go back to the

00:03:44.620 constant live stream. So if you want to watch this thing, gavel to gavel, you can on youtube.com

00:03:50.000 slash Megan Kelly, and then tune in for full analysis with lawyers, prosecutors, defense

00:03:55.640 attorneys, and others as the week goes on. The prosecutors in this case have already announced

00:04:00.680 that they intend to seek the death penalty against tyler robinson um it's just one of the many

00:04:06.740 indices of the stakes of what we're watching out there we're well aware that there are some who

00:04:14.200 don't believe tyler robinson had anything to do with this or that he was potentially manipulated

00:04:18.460 by somebody into doing this and there remain big questions about whether someone outside of tyler

00:04:26.860 Robinson, anyone knew in advance that he was going to be committing this crime.

00:04:32.800 We're going to cover every single angle of this case for our audience.

00:04:37.900 We're not going to assume, assume anything.

00:04:39.720 We're going to go into this with defense attorneys who will argue on Tyler's behalf or from the

00:04:46.080 defense perspective with prosecutors who will argue from the prosecution's perspective.

00:04:51.240 And from those who think, you know, it's possible this guy had absolutely nothing to do with

00:04:54.900 it.

00:04:55.040 and we'll take a very fair look at this case as we go on. I just don't care about any of the

00:05:03.740 bullshit around this. I care about Charlie, care about his family, and I care about being 0.98

00:05:10.100 very factual in our coverage of what happens out there both this week and when, as I believe it

00:05:17.440 will be, held over for trial, we get to trial. So that's my own commitment to you. Before we get to

00:05:23.520 all of that however we've got to get into the biggest controversy in the world right now and

00:05:29.700 it revolves around the world cup for soccer the u.s set to take on belgium tonight in seattle in

00:05:36.400 the round of 16 but as of last wednesday night the u.s was going to be without arguably its best

00:05:45.580 player okay florin balogun i don't know how to pronounce the names and i don't really know the

00:05:51.240 soccer players. You guys know that, but I do know that there's a massive controversy

00:05:54.800 unfurling right now around this guy said to be either our best or one of our best players

00:05:59.740 because he received a red card in America's win in the last game for the play you're seeing on

00:06:05.780 screen right now. Okay. You see the American in the white outfit and he stepped on the other sides

00:06:13.960 on the other teams, the player's leg, ankle, foot. Now this is slow-mo, but apparently you're

00:06:22.380 not supposed to review whether there's been a foul based on slow-mo. They don't do that,

00:06:26.820 that you're supposed to leave that up to the call on the field. And many people looked at this,

00:06:33.840 especially on the American side, and said a red card is well beyond the pale on what we just saw

00:06:39.780 there. And a red card means you're not only kicked out of the game you're playing in, you also are

00:06:45.280 barred from the next. So with every single game, an elimination game, that's obviously a huge

00:06:52.360 consequence for America. And just, I mean, objective observers, the game of soccer, had said

00:07:00.960 just you could find dozens of them saying, how did that turn into a red card? The refs on the field

00:07:07.080 did not call it. They didn't think it was a red card. They didn't think it was a foul at all,

00:07:11.260 at all. And it was the automatic replay, like video assistant that thought it might be a penalty.

00:07:19.380 And not only a penalty, it turned into a red card. Okay. So the Americans were crying foul,

00:07:25.920 saying this is absurd. It wasn't a foul at all. And it certainly wasn't a red card foul to where

00:07:31.580 we'd lose arguably our best player for that game, which we did go on to win, and the next.

00:07:38.580 It was such a big deal that America basically wound up playing its trump card, and it was

00:07:48.020 a rather massive trump card. And now just how big a role the U.S. president had in getting that call

00:07:56.920 reversed. Not entirely, but basically the red card's been suspended for a year. Yeah,

00:08:04.400 they say for up to one year. So I'm not exactly sure what that means, but it means this guy can

00:08:09.560 play in tonight's match, right? And that reversal by FIFA happened after Trump called the head of

00:08:16.680 the organization. All right, watch this. He didn't do anything wrong and he's our best player or one

00:08:22.620 of our best players, a very vital player. And he gave him a red card. I didn't know what

00:08:26.400 that meant. I didn't think it meant much. Then I started hearing that that means he

00:08:30.120 can't play in the next game, at least in the next game. I said, boy, that's a big, you

00:08:36.900 know, if it happened to another player, it would have been unfair. But when they take

00:08:40.940 your best player or just about, they have some great players, but, and they say you

00:08:46.300 can't play. That's very unfair. That's, you know, it's one thing to penalize somebody

00:08:51.940 for the game. But how do you penalize them for a game that hasn't been played yet? It's very

00:08:57.100 unfair. You can't do that. So, yes, I asked for a review by FIFA. He asked for a review. President

00:09:06.540 Trump put in a call. FIFA took another look. And now Balagoon is set to play tonight, pending a

00:09:13.480 last minute appeal by Belgium, our opponents tonight who are losing their minds over this

00:09:21.760 call because they don't want to play us. Joining me now to shed further light on this is somebody

00:09:27.100 who does know about sports a lot. And it's our friend Sage Steele. She's the host of the Sage

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00:11:07.080 text MK to the number 989898 today. Great to see you, Sage. How are you? Hi, Megan. I'm great.

00:11:14.680 Happy fourth to you as well. And oh my goodness, this is controversy. Like who only we can create

00:11:21.380 this controversy in America, right? So what do I basically have it right? The guy stepped on

00:11:29.020 the opponent's foot slash ankle, and the other guy wasn't hurt but could have been hurt?

00:11:35.840 And then how does this automatic video review thing work? Is there a person

00:11:39.220 behind that, or is it just tech? Oh, gosh. First of all, you're asking

00:11:43.580 great questions, and I will preface my answers by saying I am not a soccer expert. I am learning

00:11:50.200 quickly, but my life at ESPN and 30 years of sports is football, basketball, baseball, hockey.

00:11:54.900 So this has been new and awesome for me to go to this level and really learn about it.

00:12:00.400 Even if it's not intentional, there can be red cards issued.

00:12:04.940 And that is exactly what happened.

00:12:07.100 The controversy, I mean, we can sit there all day long and review that play and look

00:12:11.200 at what happened and say, red card, yellow card, what should have happened?

00:12:14.920 If you ask the analysts that were on the game and my friend Alexi Lalas on Fox, he was

00:12:20.320 flabbergasted.

00:12:21.720 He thought it was wrong.

00:12:22.560 All the analysts on Fox thought it was wrong.

00:12:24.960 I have a lot of friends in the soccer world who said, listen, this sucks for us, but it was the right call.

00:12:30.320 It is so subjective in soccer.

00:12:32.200 You can liken it to how you felt maybe watching ice skating in the Olympics or gymnastics as well,

00:12:36.940 where it's subjective and it is up to the referee, the official on the field at that time.

00:12:41.820 This is the first Olympics, Olympics, World Cup, where I believe this VAR, this video and review

00:12:48.640 that is there to help the referees is used not just for goals but for plays away from the goal

00:12:55.100 as well so a play like this is fair game to be reviewed and go yes under slow-mo it's different

00:13:03.780 than past world cups for sure and it is controversial but they're doing it in an

00:13:09.140 effort to what to make sure they get the call right so that's where the beef comes in because

00:13:14.760 then people see it and say, well, no way. This was a yellow card, definitely a yellow card. But

00:13:20.220 was it a red card? Again, it's subjective. To me, though, the biggest issue is bigger than that.

00:13:28.060 The biggest issue is, should the president of the United States, the leader of the free world,

00:13:33.380 be getting involved in this? And I think that that is also subjective and up for debate.

00:13:39.220 I am so glad that Balogun is playing tonight.

00:13:42.380 I'm so glad.

00:13:43.060 He is absolutely our top scorer.

00:13:45.720 We need him to continue to progress in the World Cup.

00:13:49.260 If we win tonight, we will have never gotten this far in the World Cup for the men.

00:13:52.400 The women have done it.

00:13:53.060 The men have not.

00:13:54.480 And there's going to be an asterisk by this, isn't there?

00:13:57.440 If we win after Trump has made the phone call, picked up the phone, obviously pressured him,

00:14:03.980 what's the rest of the world going to say?

00:14:05.700 yeah, you needed your guy to get involved to mention your star player was there in order to

00:14:09.360 beat Belgium. So I just don't like it. I can be really, really excited that he's playing

00:14:14.460 and a little disappointed that President Trump decided to get involved.

00:14:21.020 I mean, he's hedging the way he's talking about it. I didn't think it was a foul.

00:14:28.440 I asked Gianni Infantivo, however you say the last name, the guy who runs FIFA. I asked him,

00:14:35.700 to review the call. I didn't tell him what to do, says Trump. I can't tell him what to do.

00:14:42.480 And I don't and I don't believe he even made the decision. I think it was a committee that made

00:14:49.020 the decision. But Trump says I didn't think it was a foul. So I asked him to review it. So is

00:14:54.800 this one of those the allegation, I guess, age, is that it's one of those like, you know, nice game

00:15:00.500 you have their shame if anything happened to it kind of phone calls without explicitly saying

00:15:06.900 you change the call or something bad is going to happen between us yeah i mean wouldn't you

00:15:12.660 have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that conversation along with many others that

00:15:15.600 are far more important than soccer but just for this because he even acknowledged he's like i

00:15:19.460 don't know i didn't know what i read i didn't know it was a big deal and then somebody said no this

00:15:22.900 is a really big deal he's like well screw this i got to get involved this is america i mean feel

00:15:28.280 the momentum. And by the way, it has been absolutely incredible, not just surrounding

00:15:32.780 the American team, but all these other countries coming here and seeing just how great our country

00:15:37.140 is. It has been awesome. And the timing has been incredible with America 250. But when have we

00:15:42.320 ever known President Trump to be subtle and to just kind of throw it out there and see how the

00:15:47.720 person on the receiving end takes it? No, he's always so direct. And I cannot imagine he was

00:15:52.400 like, I don't know, maybe you'd reconsider. What he did talk about, as he said during his press

00:15:57.620 conference today i've heard bits and pieces um are you crazy there's 50 60 million people watching

00:16:03.600 this every time what are we doing this is like the super bowl you'll get even higher numbers

00:16:07.500 so i just can't imagine being subtle with it and by the way we all agree it's just you know i have

00:16:13.520 you've heard me talk about this before megan with with sports and politics and yes it's more

00:16:18.880 intertwined now than ever before right but this is what we don't need the games are incredible

00:16:27.220 And even if this had not happened and it hadn't been reversed, it was still going to be watched by basically the entire country.

00:16:34.120 I just think we have to be careful when we're saying stay out of sports.

00:16:38.600 You know, you stick to what you're doing here in politics and we're going to do sports.

00:16:43.240 When you intermingle it for your convenience, that's when I think that we're being a little bit contradictory.

00:16:50.780 Keep this in mind, too. Belgium has issued an appeal to this ruling.

00:16:56.000 So there's still a chance before this game kicks off tonight at eight o'clock Eastern time that Belgium wins their appeal and our guy isn't able to play.

00:17:07.560 I mean, there's still so much going on. But if I'm them like put myself put ourselves in Belgium's shoes and you're saying, wait a minute, this is the call that's made in the field, whether we agree or not.

00:17:19.220 And now, because you don't like it, the president is going to come in and influence FIFA.

00:17:26.400 Like if I'm in there, maybe the Belgian president should call.

00:17:29.300 He probably has.

00:17:30.720 He probably has at this point.

00:17:32.320 I just I just think I what I don't want now.

00:17:35.260 That's not going to hold as much sway.

00:17:36.980 Probably not.

00:17:37.760 What my team tells me is that there's there was an independent committee already reviewing the play and the call at the time President Trump called.

00:17:48.680 And so he he did not influence the creation of the of the committee or the review of the call, though he may have influenced the ultimate decision, the outcome.

00:18:01.640 But let me ask you this, Sage, because Jim Garrity over the National Review has a very interesting article up on their homepage right now.

00:18:08.100 And it it the reason I went there is because I remember being on the air in 2015 for Fox News covering how corrupt FIFA is.

00:18:16.540 We did a lot of articles on it at the time. There were all these indictments. FIFA, the world body that oversees international soccer, is extremely corrupt. This is not a hands clean organization. So like it's very hard to get that exercised about them reversing this call or, you know, it's like basically for me, I think, all right, do we get mad at President Trump for interfering or do we get mad at the guy who oversees FIFA for allegedly

00:18:46.540 bowing to Trump's pressure. I mean, I'm an American, so I'm in favor of this whole thing.

00:18:51.120 I have to say, it sounds like it was a bullshit call and we just had our top guy say what the F, 0.97

00:18:56.300 but our top guy is a lot more powerful than most. So too bad, Belgium, work on inventing more things 0.99

00:19:01.240 and becoming more powerful. And then maybe your guy will have some sway too. This is why I love 0.73

00:19:05.200 you. That's where I stand. I'm like, who cares? I'm sorry. You're so small and you have no

00:19:09.980 international power, but that's not really my problem. Anywho, I just feel like if if FIFA

00:19:16.780 weren't corrupt and corruptible, they would have said, thanks for the call, Mr. President. Goodbye.

00:19:23.580 But this is what Garrity writes. He writes as follows. Even the most enthusiastic soccer fan

00:19:28.900 will readily agree that FIFA has a long and sordid history of corruption. Numerous studies

00:19:34.540 and books have been written about the organization's graft and dishonesty. The journal article,

00:19:38.640 Well, whose game FIFA corruption and the challenge of global governance published in the European Journal of International Law in 2019 gives one of the most detailed summaries of the bribery filled sleazy selection process of the 2018 and 2022 World Cups, as well as indictments of a total of twenty nine present and former FIFA officials for corruption in the organization, including allegations of racketeering, wire fraud and money laundering.

00:20:01.260 In 2014, the HBO comedian John Oliver did a whole segment on how he hated the rampant corruption within the comically grotesque organization, but yet couldn't resist being a soccer fan.

00:20:11.280 Anyway, it goes on to give some more evidence about how FIFA has an amazing ability to negotiate very generous deals with host countries.

00:20:19.880 This year, under a deal negotiated with the U.S. Treasury Department,

00:20:22.800 national associations can seek exemption from U.S. federal income tax

00:20:26.740 on their 2026 FIFA World Cup tournament earnings by applying for tax-exempt status.

00:20:32.560 All 48 participating teams received $2.5 million in preparation money,

00:20:36.600 $10 million in qualification money, $16 million for team delegation costs,

00:20:40.580 increased team ticketing allocations, and so on.

00:20:43.860 This has already been a very successful year, he writes for U.S. national men's team,

00:20:47.260 and goes on from there. But he's pointing out that half half of the people who are associated

00:20:52.920 with FIFA appear to be bought and paid for. And this is something Trump seemed to be tapping into

00:20:58.220 today when he was talking about the ref who made this call. Or I think it might have been the

00:21:04.260 original ref. I'm not sure. But here's what Trump said about the reffing this morning. Listen.

00:21:09.380 And I'm a person that loves sports and was a good athlete. And I understand sports really well,

00:21:15.620 really well and that wasn't a foul that wasn't even an infraction that was two guys running

00:21:23.080 full speed that happened to crash into each other you can't take your foot and properly

00:21:28.060 place it on somebody else's foot when you're going no these were two great athletes that got tangled

00:21:34.980 up and this referee who is a little bit suspect if you check his if you check his past i don't

00:21:46.680 want to say that because i don't like to create controversy but but very suspect uh if you'd like

00:21:54.040 i'll provide you with the past he made a call that nobody could believe you know even people

00:22:00.620 on the other side they said oh we got lucky wow that's and it's very interesting they say they

00:22:05.860 don't show them in slow motion and i never realized that i'd never heard of that before

00:22:09.300 okay so president trump tapping into you know existing suspicions about people being corrupt

00:22:17.320 within the fifa organization a couple of things he's wrong it was a foul it just did deserve to

00:22:24.280 be called and he acknowledged he doesn't know soccer it's apparent there and that's fine we

00:22:28.800 can still love him for other things. And same as the audience knows. Right. I mean, stop that

00:22:34.460 absolutely deserve to be called. You can you can we'll debate forever. Red card, yellow card. That

00:22:39.120 is a very, very fair debate. Secondly, we all knew FIFA was corrupt beforehand. Maybe President

00:22:46.300 Trump didn't. We all knew this. This is one of the issues with the sport, frankly, on a global

00:22:52.980 level. And even here in the United States, I mean, people don't even love sometimes the way the game

00:22:57.360 is played and the flopping etc i mean mls numbers and the women's league numbers aren't great like

00:23:02.560 this is a thing in soccer as it is in with the ioc as it is with controversies in the nfl and

00:23:09.480 the nba i mean there are so many things that are unfair about all of these sports and soccer's at

00:23:15.140 the top of that list i wonder if these conversations were had by president trump um leading up to the

00:23:20.480 world cup you know because of these things and these are legitimate issues and that the author

00:23:24.820 of that article brought up but it but it is what it is and so then to only bring it up after well

00:23:32.500 this whole thing is unfair i i i have a problem with that again i am so with you it is awesome

00:23:39.580 that he's playing he's a 25 year old kid he's worked his butt off he turned 25 on the 3rd of

00:23:44.380 july like how amazing is this for this young man after being devastated i'm sure not just that he

00:23:51.240 couldn't play, but that he let down his teammates by not being able to be there. I just think it's

00:23:57.460 a very fine line. And did you see the comment also? He's like, by the way, good thing it's me.

00:24:03.440 If this were Biden, he would have been asleep at the wheel. It never would have. I made the call

00:24:07.600 and now look what's happening. I mean, it's hysterical. And the biggest thing to me,

00:24:13.760 it's going to have an asterisk by it. If America wins this game. Does anyone care?

00:24:19.060 Well, I mean, maybe it's just me because I'm like, who cares if we win?

00:24:23.680 Like, this would be such an accomplishment for for American men's soccer.

00:24:27.820 And it's not like we asked it's like we cheated.

00:24:31.260 It's like we just want our player to play that we're not asking for, like, to make another team man down.

00:24:37.060 It's like we want our player to play with the penalty was excessive.

00:24:41.720 And FIFA agrees. But I see your point. I see your point.

00:24:44.880 Let me run this by you. Dave Portnoy, who we both know, Barstool Sports.

00:24:49.060 sports analyst as well he said the following and like this has got some appeal too i know i think

00:24:55.140 i read this go ahead yeah we have had what is it maybe 18 hours now of crying like i have never

00:25:03.800 seen in my lifetime maybe when the patriots were on their run into flight gate things like this

00:25:10.220 maybe michigan brandon walker gene but this on a global scale the crying the euro tears

00:25:17.860 the sheer whippery of europe regarding this decision everything from belgium is loiring up

00:25:26.860 belgium shouldn't play uefa that this is illegal you can't do this and it all stems from one thing

00:25:34.180 and one thing only people say oh you don't like trump and this and that no no no no they don't

00:25:39.660 like that we're getting good at soccer boys the europe is petrified because if we're good at

00:25:45.280 soccer they got nothing we're bigger than they are we're badder than they are we bail them out

00:25:50.740 in every world war we are the united states we're the bully we're the tough guy and this is the one

00:25:57.740 sport we've never paid attention to sorry but now we're getting interested i like it i have to say

00:26:05.620 it's got inherent appeal i like to visit europe i'm fine with europeans but they are a bunch of

00:26:11.740 whiners and america's got 330 million people and if we really get serious about soccer they're in

00:26:17.640 trouble i i agree i agree with all of it i think that we've always been the laughing stock in the

00:26:23.040 soccer world and that's why all of our best players do what they go overseas to play because that's

00:26:28.260 where the absolute best soccer is called it is play and and it's football there right they laugh

00:26:33.240 at our american football football everywhere else except north america is soccer again with

00:26:38.360 Donald Trump. And I wrote this down. I mean, he said the red card equaling a game suspension is

00:26:43.740 dumb. It has always been that way. There's nothing new here. So sometimes I'm like, 0.86

00:26:49.280 I just want him to just do a little bit more homework before we speak about things.

00:26:53.380 And at the end of the day, I am planning my entire afternoon and evening around watching

00:26:58.640 this game. And I will be cheering just like you and especially glad it's a first.

00:27:03.500 I can't believe it, but I, too, will be watching this. Here is a little bit more on the ref,

00:27:10.240 okay, who Trump was blasting. So our guy received a straight red car from referee Raphael Klaus

00:27:16.560 after a video review, but the decision was widely condemned as extremely harsh. Klaus did not even

00:27:21.740 award a free kick initially, despite standing yards from the incident. This is what I was

00:27:26.220 saying. At first, he didn't even call it. He wasn't bothered by it at all, but was encouraged

00:27:30.680 to review the incident by the video assistant referee right um now here's the post on klaus

00:27:37.400 and his previous controversies he previously was investigated by his home country due to a 2024

00:27:43.500 cpi parliamentary inquiry which summoned the 46 year old as a witness regarding match

00:27:49.440 fixing sage steel and sports betting multiple clubs primarily botafogo raised concerns over

00:27:57.800 Klaus's decisions and alleged patterns of irregular cards in Series A matches. Klaus was found not

00:28:05.060 guilty of wrongdoing by the Brazilian Football Confederation and faced no charges as investigators

00:28:10.220 found no direct evidence linking him to any scheme. He wasn't punished and his involvement

00:28:15.280 in the Brazilian investigation did not hinder FIFA's decision to deploy him as a top official

00:28:20.680 at the highest level. Guilty. Guilty. Yes. And guess what? Let's talk to the president of FIFA.

00:28:26.980 We knew this coming in.

00:28:29.780 So as far as the FIFA governing body, when you've got a guy with that kind of a resume,

00:28:35.140 why the hell is he allowed to even participate in this World Cup in this role?

00:28:40.500 Like, he should have been completely disqualified ahead of time.

00:28:43.200 And the only time we're bringing it up now is when it inconveniences us.

00:28:46.620 And I agree.

00:28:48.240 There were missed calls throughout that game from the same guy.

00:28:52.200 I mean, he ignored calls and with players being pulled down by their jerseys.

00:28:55.980 like I don't like the guy ahead of time because most of us knew that this was an issue why if

00:29:01.520 he allowed in and that's the bigger picture going forward right is that is to every single referee

00:29:06.780 official needs to be investigated when it's something this big by the way just like in the

00:29:11.860 NFL it takes years and years you start in high school and then college and then you get hopefully

00:29:16.260 to college football playoff before it's 20 years before you're allowed to be an NFL referee you

00:29:20.760 assume it that it is a similar setup with the world cup and with soccer where you're starting

00:29:26.460 low and earning it and if you don't do a good job officiating in the nba finals like you'll never

00:29:30.840 get asked back but you have to be really good to get to that point it absolutely should be the same

00:29:35.840 way it goes back to the corruption with fifa that has been rampant for years why they allowed him in

00:29:41.580 i don't know it shouldn't have gotten to this point it did deserve a penalty a yellow maybe

00:29:47.780 not a red but that is the rule if you get a red you're out and go usa i mean but can i just ask

00:29:56.060 you like wouldn't any team contest this it's just we went a little higher up the food chain

00:30:03.980 than most well we didn't any team we didn't test we didn't i i'm pretty sure team usa um didn't say

00:30:10.680 hey get the white house on the line maybe he can help us out like no trump trump picked up the

00:30:16.620 phone himself and made the call once he realized what had happened. And it is unfair. And as my

00:30:21.720 dad always told me, life isn't fair. Sports aren't fair. So do we go? We didn't ask for

00:30:27.940 the president to get involved. I want to make that clear. I don't want people from around the world

00:30:31.980 to be mad at Team USA. You can be mad at our commander in chief and maybe mad at FIFA president

00:30:38.600 and everybody else who was involved in the decision to rescind the red card. But this isn't

00:30:43.180 Team USA. Let's not take it out on the Americans. And of course, the Euros probably will, especially

00:30:47.580 if we go on, if we go on to win this game. But at the end of the day, I don't know what could

00:30:55.200 have been differently by, done differently by the Americans. If it were reversed, I would be upset. 0.72

00:31:01.300 I think Argentina's one of the ones favored to possibly win. Spain, right, is another one.

00:31:09.340 like the americans are not favored to win the whole thing i feel like we're arguing over just

00:31:14.280 how far we advance or belgium advances okay like but they might and you know what about the go back

00:31:21.240 to the we win the whole thing yes it's going to be very no but go back to the 1980 u.s hockey team

00:31:25.440 there were no expectations for us and the miracle on ice like it happened this could happen megan

00:31:31.180 you don't know especially with what has happened in our country also had an asterisk because did

00:31:37.440 that last goal go in before the buzzer or not? So none of this is fair, right? But we don't care.

00:31:43.500 We don't care. We think it's fine. We're just asking to have our best player play the game.

00:31:47.620 That's it, not with any particular advantage. And hopefully he is, because with this appeal

00:31:50.160 tonight, I'm praying that Belgium doesn't get their way with this appeal, right? Because there

00:31:57.480 could be a change before the game starts. Because they have a right to do that, too. And if I'm

00:32:02.100 them, I'm doing the same damn thing. Why are we listening to Belgium? What have they given 0.99

00:32:07.420 us besides the waffle. And when they have given us a Steve Jobs, they can come to the table and

00:32:13.160 bargain equally about presidential power and its use or misuse. The only thing that's missing that

00:32:18.480 Megan, the only thing that's missing is an F-bomb from you. Like I've been waiting. Come on. 0.93

00:32:24.900 I'm doing better, Sage. I'm trying. No, I'm not really. I'm mildly trying to cut back

00:32:30.900 mildly wait i want to give you one more dave portney here he is in sat 12a i'm gonna need

00:32:37.500 some fact checking from fact check people but i've seen a lot of talk that this has been done before

00:32:44.400 in the world cup like uh ronaldo had his suspension pushed off a bunch of things so it's not the first

00:32:51.380 time this has ever happened it was the right call and for and this is united a nation i'll also say

00:32:58.040 And I know, T. Bob, you're not a Trump guy, and I don't know people's politics.

00:33:02.720 If you are against this and you're a United States citizen, deported.

00:33:08.200 I want you out of the country.

00:33:09.520 If you have a problem with this guy playing because you're letting politics get in the way

00:33:14.060 and you look like Trump placed a phone call and you think this is wrong, deported.

00:33:18.760 I want you on the first bus, plane, train.

00:33:21.820 See ya.

00:33:22.640 Go live somewhere else.

00:33:24.060 This is about winning soccer.

00:33:28.880 You know what?

00:33:30.500 I think there's a few people that I'd like on the list ahead of those of us

00:33:35.120 maybe questioning that I'd like to have deported.

00:33:36.920 It's a very long list of people I'd love to have deported.

00:33:38.900 And I know we probably agree on a lot of those people.

00:33:41.820 Yeah, it's hysterical.

00:33:45.020 That's why Dave Portnoy is a genius, too.

00:33:46.900 He just comes on and he tells it like it is.

00:33:50.360 The last thing I'll say is that what if, because they were still reviewing this,

00:33:54.860 what if they were going to rescind that red card on the run before the president got involved?

00:33:58.580 And by the way, maybe the president got involved and he didn't have to tell us and no one would

00:34:02.220 know. And this controversy wouldn't even be a thing. Oh, I mean, it's in the Wall Street Journal

00:34:07.540 today, all the backstory about how Harold Lutnik and Rudy Giuliani's son, Andrew Giuliani works for

00:34:12.620 the administration, came up with a plan. Like, how are we going to get this reversed? Are we

00:34:16.340 going to get the big guy involved? He's going to make a phone call like that. They're pretty much

00:34:19.980 owning it. It's not like the White House is denying that he made the call or got involved.

00:34:23.500 It's just a question of nuance, like what was said exactly, the president.

00:34:27.700 They could have kept this on the DL and just kept it a secret.

00:34:30.640 I didn't tell him what to do.

00:34:32.320 I didn't tell him what to do.

00:34:34.360 I just made clear that was a the rent stays like before.

00:34:41.680 I love it.

00:34:43.020 Sage, thank you for helping us understand it and explaining it to us.

00:34:47.280 It's wonderful to see you.

00:34:48.480 Great to see you.

00:34:49.040 Have fun watching tonight.

00:34:50.680 Yeah, you too.

00:34:51.260 All right.

00:34:51.680 Well, and we'll we'll redux tomorrow.

00:34:53.500 and see what happened. Hopefully this call does not get reversed. I don't want to hear it,

00:34:58.040 Belgium. Go work on becoming great in your own right before you try to tear down our soccer 0.99

00:35:02.560 players. We just want our guy to play. The red card does not seem like it was an appropriate

00:35:06.560 call. And I too have questions about the ref. Okay. We turned the page. We've got some other

00:35:12.520 news to get to, and we do have to follow what's happening in this Tyler Robinson preliminary

00:35:18.240 hearing. They are putting the evidence on the stand now for the first time in a formalized

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00:37:19.100 All right, full-time thoughts. Craig, who stood out?

00:37:21.560 Brazil's lime cheesecake started bright, didn't let up.

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00:37:51.520 You know, it was almost exactly a year ago, almost exactly one year, July 11th, I think

00:37:58.080 is the one year mark, that I was with Charlie Kirk at the Student Action Summit being put

00:38:05.980 on by Turning Point.

00:38:08.100 We sat down, we talked about Pam Bondi.

00:38:11.300 That was the big story in the news 12 months ago.

00:38:14.140 Well, this is the first big scandal, I'd say, of the Trump administration that's on Team

00:38:19.520 Rational.

00:38:20.740 It's not a fake media scandal like the left tries to create for President Trump every

00:38:24.940 other day.

00:38:25.700 It's one of the right's own making, and it's not going well.

00:38:29.240 And it has to do with Jeffrey Epstein.

00:38:32.080 Yeah.

00:38:33.040 Let me just ask you, make some noise if you care about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal.

00:38:42.720 Raise your hand if it matters a lot to you.

00:38:45.000 Raise your hand.

00:38:46.680 So every hand of 7,000 people.

00:38:49.120 Everybody cares.

00:38:50.640 A lot.

00:38:51.300 I said a lot.

00:38:52.060 Every hand.

00:38:52.900 That ridiculous memo from the DOJ saying, you're not getting anything more on Epstein.

00:38:57.840 And everybody was like, what?

00:38:59.920 This is not going to fly.

00:39:01.200 You remember the controversy.

00:39:02.520 And a lot of that entire seminar was devoted to Epstein because Charlie was also outraged over it.

00:39:09.840 And while he didn't feel he could be the chief critic of the administration, he did feel that those of us who had already spoken out about it, because the news had already broken prior to my arrival out there, could.

00:39:21.820 they could be his voice and they could give voice to the outrage being felt, especially by the young

00:39:26.980 Trump base who did not agree that Epstein was over or that all the disclosures that had been

00:39:32.740 necessary had been made. And, um, he specifically said to me at that, at that event behind the

00:39:41.000 scenes, like you have to do it. I, you know, I can't do it. And I said, I'm good. I've been

00:39:45.680 talking with my audience about this all week. No one's going to be surprised where I stand.

00:39:48.260 and he led me in a q a about epstein that was well received by the audience and we did an

00:39:59.260 audience poll like how many of you care about this and they all did and it was a typical fiery

00:40:05.320 exchange at a turning point event between me and charlie it was it was great and he was great

00:40:12.460 and there's a picture of the two of us backstage walking out i have on a black dress with polka

00:40:19.440 dots he's got his suit on he's got a huge thousand watt smile on and i'm doing one of those like

00:40:26.300 you know sort of here we go finger points at the camera and we were both having a great time you

00:40:33.760 know it was a little bit of a controversial moment for the trump administration which we both

00:40:37.240 supported, but we were thrilled that President Trump was president, that he was enacting his

00:40:43.680 agenda, that Turning Point was on top of the world. Charlie had built this juggernaut of an

00:40:49.080 organization into a hundred million dollar org per year. And we had a national voice and we had

00:40:55.880 young people there by the thousand to participate in the political process and express themselves.

00:41:02.040 and it was also at that event that Charlie Tucker Carlson and I spoke backstage about

00:41:07.960 Tucker and his criticism of Israel and Netanyahu and the war and their interference in American

00:41:16.020 politics and I was a witness to Charlie saying to Tucker before he went out there because Tucker

00:41:22.380 had offered like you know do you want me to dial that back I know your donors may not love all that

00:41:26.780 And I was with them when Charlie came back over to Tucker and said, go, Max.

00:41:34.640 It was tape that we just happened to capture my team as we were getting behind the scenes

00:41:45.300 footage and we put it out there just to show that's where Charlie was on his increasing

00:41:50.600 questions around Israel's role in American politics.

00:41:53.600 He wanted Tucker to quote, go, Max.

00:41:56.780 That's what happened that day almost a year ago.

00:42:00.500 No one there had any idea that almost two months later exactly,

00:42:06.360 Charlie would be shot and killed in front of our very eyes

00:42:10.260 in one of the most traumatic things I think any of us has ever seen on screen.

00:42:19.260 You know, I mean, it was like something out of a horror film, only it was real.

00:42:23.780 you know we saw our friends murder we saw his neck get blown apart on national tv and i will

00:42:34.980 never forget what happened that day we had been live on the air we had done a long show on

00:42:39.460 arena the young ukrainian gal who was murdered on that train in north carolina um we had megan

00:42:49.120 basham we had ali beth stuckey we had heather mcdonald and we talked about crime and how this

00:42:53.400 was getting buried, the story and what the realities were. And then we wrapped and I went

00:42:58.140 back to my office in my studio and we got word. There's been a shooting at a turning point event.

00:43:05.760 And, you know, sadly in today's day and age, you, you hear there's been a shooting. You don't,

00:43:09.840 it's kind of like, okay. I mean, that's a sad reality. You're like, was anybody actually shot?

00:43:15.640 It was like an attempted thing. Cause we're kind of used to these things. It's not that I had no

00:43:19.420 concern. It's just like, you don't think the worst. And then there was a report that Charlie

00:43:26.680 had been shot. And I immediately texted him saying, are you okay? And there was no response,

00:43:34.540 which didn't necessarily mean anything. You know, it could be at this point, I didn't know whether

00:43:38.260 the event was ongoing. I didn't even know whether that report was real. You know, there's so much

00:43:44.100 misinformation that comes in an event like this. And then the first video broke of Charlie clearly

00:43:51.520 getting shot in a profound way from afar. You know, the video was from afar, but you could see

00:43:58.860 his chest puff up from an explosion. And that was the first indication we had that something

00:44:09.280 catastrophically severe had happened to him. And the deep, deep worry of whether this had actually

00:44:18.620 happened. You think about deep fakes, you think about, I don't know, AI. In today's day and age,

00:44:24.960 you always have to second guess everything. Sometimes we get burned by it. And just the

00:44:30.800 level of alarm skyrocketed up. And I said to my team, we got to go back on the air right now.

00:44:37.580 right now. Because if something has happened to Charlie, our audience is going to want to hear

00:44:42.800 it from us. They're not going to trust the mainstream media on this at all.

00:44:48.780 And if something terrible has happened to him, they're going to want to hear it from us.

00:44:53.620 So we went down back into the studio. I sat down on the set.

00:44:57.520 and just as i did that other video hit the close-up where you see charlie's neck explode

00:45:07.860 in a river of red blood immediately emerge out the left side in what seemed almost truly too

00:45:17.020 gruesome to be real it just did not seem like this was real life it was so much blood so

00:45:23.860 instantaneously shooting out of my friend. It's just like the most rapid and aggressive pace.

00:45:31.960 It just seemed like it had to be somebody's idea of what this kind of murder would look like and

00:45:39.340 not an actual murder because it was just so instantaneously gruesome and voluminous and

00:45:44.520 awful. And I screamed out in the studio when I saw it. I couldn't believe it and instantly burst

00:45:52.560 out into tears, which think about the number of times in your life you've instantly burst into

00:45:56.660 tears. Hopefully it's been few and far between. It certainly has been for me. And then we went

00:46:03.960 live moments later. You know, we had our guests lined up to whom I'll be grateful forever. Glenn

00:46:10.080 Beck, Rich Lowry, Mark Halpern came on among others and we got through it together. And then

00:46:16.340 indeed, we had the confirmation, Deseret News, that Charlie was dead. That was September 10th,

00:46:25.200 2025. And here we are. It hasn't even been a year since Charlie was killed. And it's almost

00:46:34.660 been a year since I sat with him at that Turning Point event. And I kind of can't believe that

00:46:40.900 we're here talking about his alleged killer. That's where we are. So much has happened in

00:46:48.460 the past year, dueling narratives around Charlie's death, serious questions being raised by many

00:46:55.340 people about whether this gun could have caused that injury. And that is a fair question. People

00:47:02.020 I really trust, like Rob O'Neill, who's a trained Navy SEAL sniper, does not believe that it could

00:47:08.980 happen and i trust him implicitly and i understand that's a real question and we're going to have to

00:47:14.220 get into that um obviously questions about whether somebody else had something to do with it you know

00:47:21.580 whether tyler was the shooter at all and if he was whether somebody else had something to do with it

00:47:25.720 put him up to it knew about it worked to cover it up and that's a very very wide web

00:47:31.940 we saw texts from the trans tifa community the this aggressive trans group online predicting

00:47:41.360 something terrible was going to happen to charlie that day we never heard more about it never heard

00:47:45.980 anything more about it there have been questions about whether israel may have played some sort of

00:47:52.140 role in this because charlie was becoming increasingly israel skeptical and was making

00:47:57.780 room for israel skeptics in the republican party which was a direct threat to the support that

00:48:04.720 israel needs from america but that's become extremely controversial many people tried to

00:48:10.320 stop the people who are raising that question from speaking about it at all this past year i

00:48:14.900 have tried to make room for those people to ask their questions because i think they're fair

00:48:18.260 questions it's a fair question the stakes are so incredibly high for israel and its relationship

00:48:26.320 with America, and Charlie was becoming much more skeptical of Israel and its role in American

00:48:32.220 politics. And I saw it myself. He hosted a roundtable of young Israel skeptics at that event. 0.89

00:48:41.100 He told Tucker to go max in front of my eyes, and he would come back on this show on August 6th

00:48:47.980 in front of all of you and express his consternation over being called an anti-Semite

00:48:55.260 because of what happened at that turning point event around Epstein, as if you're an anti-Semite,

00:49:00.920 if you have criticisms of somebody who happened to be Jewish and American, that's absolutely absurd.

00:49:06.620 If you don't like Megyn Kelly, does it make you anti-Catholic? Bullshit. What is that? 1.00

00:49:15.480 In any event, you heard him here expressing his anger at people who were doing that to him.

00:49:21.880 And look, that's probably not going to be allowed at this preliminary hearing or at the trial, because while you can have suspicions about somebody else's role in a murder like this one, you cannot get that into evidence unless you have real proof and a legitimate good faith basis for raising it.

00:49:42.920 and we've discussed with our expert panel before

00:49:45.440 about whether they've got any of that

00:49:47.220 outside of Tyler Robinson

00:49:49.760 and the last we took a hard look at this, they didn't.

00:49:54.140 So you can speculate all you want,

00:49:55.580 you can have your suspicions, you can have your beliefs

00:49:57.540 but what you need in order to introduce it

00:50:00.500 into evidence is proof.

00:50:03.860 As we go through this preliminary hearing this week,

00:50:06.160 we're gonna be sticking to the proof

00:50:08.900 that is offered by both sides

00:50:10.140 and that's where we begin today. Do we have time to run this setup package, Steve? I've been

00:50:17.440 talking for longer. We did a setup package to sort of take you back through how we got here

00:50:23.700 and we're going to play that and then we come back. We'll bring our expert legal panel in

00:50:28.340 and we will get into it. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We got him.

00:50:32.320 Ten months after Tyler Robinson surrendered to police, prosecutors are finally set to reveal

00:50:37.820 the case they say proves he murdered charlie kirk did you state your name tyler james robinson

00:50:45.180 the security for this week's preliminary hearing will be extremely tight according to local

00:50:49.900 reporting robinson will be brought to court each day in an armored vehicle this is not a trial

00:50:56.620 it's the first time prosecutors will have to lay out in open court the evidence they have against

00:51:02.300 robinson surveillance video witness testimony evidence prosecutors say shows robinson planned

00:51:08.700 this attack text messages allegedly between robinson and his so-called trans furry lover

00:51:15.580 lance twigs and a letter prosecutors say robinson left behind for twigs we first got our hands on it

00:51:22.300 back in the spring i had the opportunity to take out charlie kirk and i took it i wish we could

00:51:27.100 could have lived in a world where this did not feel necessary. I wish I could have stayed for

00:51:31.820 you and lived our lives together. I don't think this is going to satisfy people who have doubts

00:51:36.260 about him because it's it's written in that same formal tone. It doesn't exactly sound like a Gen 0.96

00:51:42.300 Z-er. But I think what we're seeing here, folks, is that's how this guy talked. Twiggs was given

00:51:49.420 partial immunity in exchange for cooperating with investigators. He's not expected to testify

00:51:55.140 in person this week. Instead, prosecution is expected to present a recorded interview with

00:52:01.240 investigators. And then there's the forensic evidence police claim they have relating to

00:52:06.640 Robinson. DNA allegedly found on the rifle trigger, DNA on the fired casing, DNA on unfired

00:52:13.720 cartridges, DNA on the towel wrapping the rifle. One piece of that evidence generating sensational

00:52:19.940 headlines earlier this year. A shocking claim in the Charlie Kirk case. An ATF analysis of a bullet

00:52:26.000 fragment recovered during Charlie's autopsy could not conclusively determine whether it had been

00:52:31.660 fired from Robinson's alleged rifle. The defense says it may try to use that analysis to clear

00:52:36.820 Robinson. The headlines suggested the bullet could not be matched to the murder weapon. And while

00:52:42.360 that was technically true, the full story is a bit more complicated. It's mostly a big nothing

00:52:47.340 to tell you the truth. It's not an all unusual to have difficulty making a match between a bullet

00:52:52.380 recovered on autopsy and a firearm. You don't actually even need the bullet, of course, to find

00:52:56.960 someone guilty of having fired the bullet. The most powerful moment this week may have nothing

00:53:02.080 to do with the evidence. It's expected to be the first time Charlie's widow, Erica, and his parents

00:53:07.960 will come face to face with the man accused of killing him. When I sat down with Erica last fall

00:53:13.700 on our tour i asked her about that incredible moment at charlie's memorial service

00:53:19.140 that young man

00:53:20.360 i forgive him

00:53:25.220 if you could say something to him if you say something to his parents like

00:53:30.860 what would it be would it be anger would it be sympathy what would it be

00:53:35.660 it's a good question it wouldn't be sympathy it wouldn't be anger

00:53:42.180 anything that I could ever wish upon him or that family would pale in comparison

00:53:50.480 of the justice of God.

00:53:56.720 The preliminary hearing is in a break right now. We're going to take a break too. And when we come

00:54:00.880 back on the opposite side, we'll tell you what's happened in court this morning and what's likely

00:54:05.960 to happen next. We've got our full panel of legal experts. We're going to have this covered for you

00:54:11.760 all week. In the meantime, say a prayer for his suffering family and keep Charlie in your thoughts

00:54:18.220 as well and turning point. We'll be right back. Are you feeling sluggish, bloated, not quite like

00:54:25.880 yourself? This affects so many of us. Life constantly bombards us with silent threats,

00:54:31.020 processed foods, seed oils, artificial light, nonstop stress, all of which can disrupt gut

00:54:37.260 health, drain your energy, and weaken your immune health while you're not even paying attention.

00:54:42.780 When that happens, it's not that your body's broken. It's that it might be missing the right

00:54:47.120 inputs. This is why you need to know about Armra Cholestrum. This thing's packed with more than 400

00:54:53.560 bioactive nutrients that they say can work at a foundational level to fortify gut health. So many

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00:55:04.680 recovery after a workout and promote whole body vitality. Doesn't that sound good? Strong gut

00:55:11.080 integrity can support metabolism, skin and hair health. Yes. If you're having problems there,

00:55:17.040 it could begin in your gut and even performance and recovery, which is why cholesterol has long

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00:55:27.320 the inside out, consider Armra and they have a special deal for you right now. Go to armra.com

00:55:32.880 slash Megan or enter M-E-G-Y-N to get 30% off your first subscription order. That's A-R-M-R-A.com

00:55:40.940 slash M-E-G-Y-N. Sage Steele is still on the soccer case forwarding to me just now

00:55:50.160 the following headline. Belgium's appeal over for Lauren Belogian has been rejected,

00:55:57.780 rejected by fifa clearing path for usa star to play world cup game after trump's intervention

00:56:04.580 yay that's the right decision go team usa and then at the same time fifa and its president

00:56:12.200 gianni infantino has just released this statement denying denying that president trump's phone call

00:56:20.780 is the the reason that uh the call was initially reversed and now they're standing by it he he

00:56:27.580 says as follows. He writes as follows in this written statement. I've seen the public comments

00:56:32.420 regarding the decision of the independent FIFA disciplinary committee related to the suspension

00:56:37.260 of Falar and Balogian. And I would like to reiterate a fundamental principle of FIFA's

00:56:41.520 governance. FIFA's judicial bodies are independent. They operate autonomously, apply the FIFA

00:56:48.160 disciplinary code and decide cases based on the applicable regulations and the specific facts

00:56:52.260 before them. Their independence is essential to the credibility and integrity of football.

00:56:56.420 and this must always be respected.

00:56:58.480 Yes, I regularly discuss matters related to the FIFA World Cup

00:57:01.480 with the President of the United States.

00:57:03.180 And on this matter, I did receive a call from Trump

00:57:05.340 just as I received calls from heads of state,

00:57:07.220 government officials, football stakeholders,

00:57:09.140 and business execs from around the world

00:57:11.500 on many different issues.

00:57:13.080 During our convo, I explained

00:57:14.460 that there was an ongoing legal process

00:57:16.880 involving FIFA's independent judicial bodies

00:57:19.040 and that the case would be decided in due course

00:57:21.720 by the competent bodies.

00:57:23.240 That's how FIFA's system works.

00:57:24.500 And it's a principle that I will always uphold. I read the decisions of the FIFA disciplinary

00:57:29.540 committee when they are issued. Sometimes I'm surprised by them. Sometimes I agree with them.

00:57:34.000 And sometimes I disagree. What I always do, however, is respect those decisions and the

00:57:38.380 autonomy of the bodies that make them. Whether we personally like a decision or not is irrelevant.

00:57:44.520 Respect for independent institutions and the rule of law is what protects the integrity of

00:57:47.940 our competitions and the credibility of FIFA at all times. So that's a clear denial that

00:57:52.960 Trump's phone call had anything to do with the reversal. Whatever. The reversal stands. The

00:57:59.840 game's going to go on. Cry in your soup some more, Belgium. Just get your guys out there and try to 1.00

00:58:05.960 win, okay? All we're asking is to play with our regular team. That's it. And having a bullshit

00:58:11.300 call from the sound of it not standing against us. By the way, online, people are already pointing 0.98

00:58:17.220 out that reportedly Keir Starmer, you heard Sage make reference to it, interfered in England's game

00:58:24.000 against Mexico to make sure against somebody in Mexico, maybe it was Mexico, I don't know, but

00:58:29.360 to make sure that the game was played a little bit delayed. There was bad weather coming. He

00:58:34.640 reportedly wanted them to acclimate. We'll see. Is it really so unprecedented that a leader

00:58:40.940 should contact the head of FIFA and say, gee, I didn't like that? I'm sure it happens.

00:58:46.160 So in any event, we go forward with our full team tonight.

00:58:49.560 Go USA.

00:58:51.320 Okay, it is one o'clock here in the East, and we are monitoring the Tyler Robinson preliminary

00:58:56.260 hearing.

00:58:56.980 This is it for the prosecution, where they have to convince the judge that they do have

00:59:01.860 enough evidence to hold Robinson over for a real trial.

00:59:06.200 Officer Chris Bagley is on the stand.

00:59:09.880 He's with Spanish Fork, Utah Police Department now.

00:59:13.740 He was previously with Utah Valley University Police on the day that Charlie was killed.

00:59:20.680 So far, the prosecution has been establishing his knowledge of the location of various buildings on campus.

00:59:27.300 And he just said this about what he heard when Charlie was shot.

00:59:32.020 You mentioned so you mentioned you heard something.

00:59:33.940 What did you hear again?

00:59:35.040 I heard a gunshot.

00:59:36.180 OK, and can you describe the described Mr.

00:59:40.300 Kirk's reaction?

00:59:41.760 Was that simultaneous to hearing the gunshot?

00:59:45.020 Yes, it was.

00:59:45.780 When he fell to the left?

00:59:46.980 Yes.

00:59:47.620 Did you see the reaction from the crowd?

00:59:49.720 Yes.

00:59:50.260 What was that?

00:59:51.500 Everybody kind of got up.

00:59:53.200 They all said a lot of people were screaming, standing up,

00:59:55.780 and starting to run in all different directions away from the center of the tent.

01:00:00.160 People were running up.

01:00:01.280 People were laying down on the steps.

01:00:02.940 I'm trying to jump over people to get to the bottom of the stairs

01:00:05.280 so I can help stop an individual that's probably shooting.

01:00:08.940 um what happened next um by the time i got to the bottom of the stairs we i was informed on

01:00:17.060 the radio that we had a shooter in custody that of course would not be the actual shooter it was

01:00:23.920 another man who injected himself into the melee uh joining me now to react to all of this are

01:00:30.380 viva fry he's former litigator and rumble creator and dave erenberg and ashley merchant they are

01:00:36.160 two of the hosts of our MK True Crime show on the MK Media Podcast Network, which you can find,

01:00:42.200 just go to any podcast app and type in MK True Crime, it'll come up, or you can go to mktruecrime.com

01:00:48.180 and find links to all the multiple platforms. Great to see you all. Dave, let me start with

01:00:53.840 you as former prosecutor, former state's attorney for Palm Beach County. What do you see as the

01:01:01.260 goals for the prosecution here and the challenges for them as they try to convince this court that

01:01:07.060 they do have probable cause to hold tyler robinson over for trial megan good to be back with you and

01:01:13.780 my fellow florida men and women ashley and viva fry ashley actually actually is from florida she

01:01:19.180 lives in georgia now so we're all florida people so i the prosecution here has a slam dunk i mean

01:01:26.520 as far as this hearing this this is not beyond a reasonable doubt they just need to show some

01:01:30.060 probable cause. They've got plenty of that. This is really for the defense. The defense wants to

01:01:35.600 use this as a way to get as much information out there, to cross-examine as many people as they can

01:01:40.840 to try to help their defense. It was a loss for them when they couldn't get Twiggs to appear in

01:01:46.700 person. They wanted to cross-examine him. They wanted to lock him down. Instead, he's going to

01:01:50.340 be on video. Robinson's boyfriend. Correct. Correct. Now, Lance Twiggs is his name, but

01:01:55.340 But the defense, interestingly, the defense refers to him as Luna Twigs because I guess he has transitioned already.

01:02:01.740 So both sides, the prosecution of the judge call him Lance Twigs and the defense calls him Luna Twigs.

01:02:07.520 So you can see where they're going.

01:02:08.480 They're going to they're going to try to discredit Twigs and try to point the finger at him as much as possible.

01:02:13.980 But as far as the prosecution, they're just going to show the evidence. 0.88

01:02:17.620 I would say a win for them would be if they can just show as little as possible to not turn over all their cards.

01:02:25.340 Unless they absolutely have to, because I think they've got Tyler Robinson dead to rights.

01:02:30.720 Why why are they doing it this way, Dave, with a preliminary hearing as opposed to going in front of a grand jury?

01:02:37.120 Oh, the defense wants this. The defense wants it. So this is something that in Utah happens.

01:02:44.360 And although I'm not an expert in Utah law, the defense can push for this because they want the prosecution to put up all the evidence so they have a chance to cross examine it.

01:02:55.340 And so that's what happens. But yeah, it would be much easier just to get an indictment before the grand jury move forward. But here, I guess in Utah, they want the evidence so that the judge could officially find probable cause and then move forward. But this is something the defense wants, not the prosecution.

01:03:10.540 But is it like, who is it up to?

01:03:12.680 Because our information was that, I mean, of course the defense wants it.

01:03:16.060 They always want it.

01:03:16.740 But our information was that the grand jury proceedings are actually much more rare in

01:03:22.900 Utah, that they do happen, but they're much more rare.

01:03:25.160 Ashley, do you have any thoughts on it?

01:03:26.420 No, I mean, it's all of the things that both you and Dave were talking about.

01:03:29.760 I have a lot of thoughts on it.

01:03:30.700 It is very rare to have this type of proceeding.

01:03:33.160 Typically, they would just go in front of a grand jury.

01:03:35.360 And the grand jury, I mean, there's an old adage that it would indict a ham sandwich.

01:03:38.880 that's true. They could definitely avoid this and go to a grand jury. My understanding in Utah is

01:03:44.340 that's not the local custom. They typically afford these preliminary hearings, but they definitely

01:03:48.760 don't have to. But as a defense lawyer, I can. Well, I was told by my team is Utah does have

01:03:53.860 grand juries, but they're used much less often than preliminary hearings in Utah. I don't know

01:03:59.480 why. It seems like it might just be a local custom, but but it's an odd local custom, given

01:04:04.840 the fact that don't prosecutors typically not want to do this because it's really showing your cards

01:04:10.080 to the defense in a way that will better enable them to potentially defeat the charges at trial.

01:04:16.340 It is. And one of the reasons that they do it, I mean, one of the only reasons is to buy more time

01:04:20.600 if they're not ready to indict. So sometimes because you have to have a preliminary hearing

01:04:24.580 if a person is being held in custody without a bond. And so they want to have a preliminary

01:04:28.640 hearing so they can prolong the time before they have to go in front of a grand jury.

01:04:32.140 This happens a lot of times when there's DNA that's outstanding and maybe they want that result back before they go in front of a grand jury, things like that.

01:04:40.180 But in this case, it doesn't make sense why they would want to avoid a grand jury.

01:04:44.200 There's nothing really outstanding at this point, and it really does just give the defense really a bite at the apple.

01:04:50.360 I mean, they can lock in certain testimony, cross-examination, things like that.

01:04:54.840 They get their first bite at the apple at these witnesses, and they could try and poke holes in the case.

01:04:59.060 They lock these folks into testimony.

01:05:00.540 So it's kind of surprising that they're putting all of this up.

01:05:03.520 I'm like, Dave, I think that they should put as little as up as little up as possible just to get this ruling that there's probable cause so that they can move on and go to the grand jury.

01:05:14.340 It doesn't take much to convince a judge that and it's a judge decision here that there is probable cause to hold him over for trial.

01:05:24.240 I mean, Ashley, the alleged confession alone should do it, should it not?

01:05:30.780 I mean, there's an alleged confession on Discord, which is a gaming site where you also have chats, and that's going to be introduced.

01:05:39.240 There are text messages alleged from Tyler Robinson to Lance Twiggs with an alleged confession.

01:05:45.900 And then there is something with Tyler Robinson turning himself in to police, though I don't know what exactly was said, if anything, by Tyler Robinson in that setting to the cops.

01:05:57.920 They could take all of this evidence and have a police officer, the lead investigator, testify for less than 30 minutes and summarize all of this and get over probable cause.

01:06:06.360 They could do that.

01:06:07.040 They don't have to play all these interviews.

01:06:08.820 They don't have to put forth all of this evidence.

01:06:10.560 I mean, some of the people that they have on their witness list, it sounds like they're

01:06:13.320 actually going to walk through some scientific testimony.

01:06:15.740 They don't need to do that.

01:06:16.660 That's not anything they need to do.

01:06:18.140 So I can only imagine that the reason they're doing this is to try to show the world how

01:06:22.340 strong their case is, to try to somehow influence people who are talking about the case and

01:06:27.060 show how strong the case is.

01:06:28.240 But I don't think they need to do it.

01:06:29.600 So it's very surprising to me that they're actually going through this process when they

01:06:33.680 really could get probable cause found within, I mean, honestly, less than 30 minutes.

01:06:37.840 There's no need for more than that.

01:06:39.320 And they could have a summary witness, you know, who testifies about all this stuff.

01:06:44.040 That is hugely interesting.

01:06:45.500 Viva, the prosecutor in this case, the prosecutor's office and the prosecutor was just found in

01:06:51.520 contempt because he got out there after that Daily Mail piece hit that I referenced in

01:06:58.480 the setup package saying the bullet didn't match the gun, right?

01:07:02.860 Like that was kind of the headline that the bullet retrieved from Charlie's body in the

01:07:06.580 autopsy did not match the gun of this shooter. And he got out there and said, that is not correct.

01:07:14.180 The Daily Mail's headline was wrong. And the the takeaway that people are going with is wrong.

01:07:21.620 It's that there was no conclusive proof that it did match. And as Andrew Branca pointed out in

01:07:28.820 that segment we aired in part there, that's not unusual that the bullet would be so destroyed

01:07:34.100 that it's just not capable of being matched up to the gun.

01:07:36.920 But his point was,

01:07:37.740 that doesn't mean it wasn't the bullet from that gun.

01:07:41.240 It just means there was so little left of it

01:07:43.260 that we couldn't make the comparison

01:07:44.640 to affirmatively say one way or the other.

01:07:47.460 So the courts found that wasn't actually,

01:07:49.680 that was okay for him to come out and say,

01:07:51.400 because that report went everywhere from the Daily Mail.

01:07:53.760 But he went beyond that and said,

01:07:56.260 and we think we're going to easily be able to prove

01:07:59.100 that Tyler Robinson committed this crime

01:08:00.840 beyond a reasonable doubt.

01:08:01.840 We have overwhelming evidence against him.

01:08:03.520 And the court said, now you went too far and found him in contempt because he had issued a gag order.

01:08:09.080 The reason I'm raising this with you is because clearly this prosecutor is feeling, forgive the phrase, under the gun.

01:08:16.580 And he is paying attention to the public narratives around Charlie's murder.

01:08:22.360 And he obviously is very concerned about the public being swayed away from thinking Tyler Robinson did it.

01:08:31.820 Do you think that's why he's doing what Ashley accurately describes is very unusual with like a kitchen sink approach here with a witness list that is going to take us an entire week to get through instead of the 30 minute cop on the stand saying he confessed.

01:08:48.060 Here are the text messages. Bye.

01:08:49.720 It's interesting. People need to understand that distinction, that the contempt ruling was not because of what the prosecutor said to correct the record on the misrepresentation of that forensic report.

01:09:00.980 it was that he went on TMZ afterwards and said, we have a strong case, which I don't understand

01:09:05.900 how that's contempt. I mean, I appreciate there's a gag order, a prosecutor saying we have a good

01:09:09.920 case. I would expect them to believe that if they're prosecuting it. But one thing that's

01:09:14.220 generic, it's generic. I mean, he shouldn't have done it at TMZ. Maybe, you know, in court is one

01:09:18.420 thing and then just don't say anything out of court. But he had to correct the record on the

01:09:22.080 misrepresentation of that Daily Mail article. What's clear is that both parties, prosecution

01:09:27.500 and defense are trying to wage a war in the court of public opinion. And I wouldn't be surprised

01:09:32.340 if the defense is insisting on this and happy to make it as robust as possible to confuse the

01:09:38.220 general public into saying, look how unfair this prosecution is. We didn't get to have Lance Twiggs

01:09:43.800 testify in person so we could cross-examine him because people don't understand the distinction

01:09:48.580 between a preliminary hearing and a trial on the merits and the burden of proof for probable cause

01:09:53.600 versus a criminal conviction and the hardest and most concrete evidence of that i'm having a back

01:09:58.560 and forth now with candace owens who you know has already declared this to be a show trial

01:10:02.420 and i'm like it's not even a trial yet this is a preliminary hearing when it's probable cause

01:10:07.780 and you know hearsay evidence is admissible you don't get to necessarily cross-examine the

01:10:13.580 individual who made the statement that is where you go to probable because say okay hearsay

01:10:17.840 evidence is admissible and so you don't get to cross-examine now you'll pick apart the evidence

01:10:22.320 when it's time to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

01:10:24.900 Right now, probable cause, slam dunk like everyone says,

01:10:27.760 how it's going to take five days, I don't know.

01:10:30.080 But you know that the defense is going to try to confuse the general public

01:10:32.840 into thinking this preliminary hearing is somehow something of a trial on the merits

01:10:36.720 subject to beyond a reasonable doubt when it's the exact opposite.

01:10:41.520 The witness list goes on and on, Dave.

01:10:44.580 I'm looking at it here.

01:10:45.680 I know you guys have seen it too.

01:10:46.640 There's Officer Bagley, like we just said.

01:10:48.780 He's on the stand now.

01:10:50.120 Someone from the Utah Bureau of Investigation.

01:10:52.320 Agent Bricker Mortensen, who's also from the State Bureau of Investigation.

01:10:56.300 Agent Davis, same thing.

01:10:57.840 Lance Twiggs via recorded video.

01:10:59.800 We're going to come back to that in a second.

01:11:01.940 And then, I mean, the evidence list, my gosh, it's we'll be here all day if I if I list

01:11:08.200 it all.

01:11:08.460 But here's just a couple of things we expect them to introduce.

01:11:11.020 Drone images from Utah Valley University, photo of a screwdriver, which they allegedly

01:11:16.580 found on the roof.

01:11:17.820 Daytime photo of sniper perch, photo of sniper perch, photo of sniper perch.

01:11:22.320 Video of mother with children in crowd

01:11:24.340 because they need to show that somebody was scared

01:11:26.100 that what he did that day scared women and children.

01:11:29.620 Written statement of A. Right.

01:11:31.720 Video of shooting from behind questioner.

01:11:34.060 Written statement of T. Phillips.

01:11:35.680 Video of shooting from behind Charlie.

01:11:37.560 Written statement from turning point.

01:11:39.060 Video of shooting from behind booth.

01:11:41.060 Photo of rifle in bushes.

01:11:42.500 Photo of rifle in bushes.

01:11:43.660 Photo of rifle in box.

01:11:45.100 Photo of rifle in box.

01:11:46.460 Medical examiner report.

01:11:48.380 Doorbell camera surveillance from 9-10-2025.

01:11:51.180 Written statement of C.

01:11:52.180 noble of Mike Mitchell, um, recorded statement of Lance twigs, text messages between Tyler

01:11:57.440 Robinson and Lance twigs. There it is. That's an important one. Discord chats, photograph of no.

01:12:01.500 Okay. I could be here all day. Like they're going to be introducing a lot of physical evidence,

01:12:07.080 but, but let's just start with the, the big one, which is video recorded video of Lance twigs.

01:12:14.740 This is the guy. I thought it was remarkable in the setup package. Jake Whitman, our producer

01:12:19.020 found these pictures of Lance Twiggs looking like a like a man, like I don't want to say a regular

01:12:25.460 normal man, but like a guy like your typical guy. And then you see the after pictures when he was

01:12:33.360 dating Tyler Robinson and living with him where he's got the ears on and the furry cap. And

01:12:40.160 obviously this is an unwell person. You don't declare yourself trans and a furry as this guy 0.84

01:12:46.060 did. And I mean, I'm sorry, but like the name Luna is perfect for him. Short for you know what 0.90

01:12:53.200 this person is the prosecution's main witness, Dave, which I would think poses a bit of a

01:13:00.000 challenge to them because this is not a well man. Yeah. And you're in Utah, a culturally

01:13:06.640 conservative state. And so they're going to see this individual and they may not like him,

01:13:12.280 But he is a crucial witness because he's the supposedly the motivation for Tyler Robinson.

01:13:19.480 He did it for love of Lance Twiggs and Lance Twiggs, by all accounts, knew nothing about it.

01:13:26.400 He saw the message afterwards and was shocked and he is cooperating.

01:13:31.380 But there will always be conspiracy theories out there.

01:13:33.880 And I think you hit it earlier, Megan, when you said that I think the reason why you're seeing so much evidence out there is because the prosecution is very conscious of the conspiracy theories and the narrative.

01:13:46.880 That's why the prosecution did what prosecutors don't normally do and go and respond to the stuff that the defense put out about the ballistics and even went on TMZ.

01:13:57.040 Yeah, I think that the judge should not have sanctioned the prosecutor for it.

01:14:01.740 But I understand that it's unusual to go on TMZ as a prosecutor.

01:14:05.820 I never did that when I was state attorney.

01:14:08.020 But this is not like any other case.

01:14:11.040 Yeah, he he gave a print statement to TMZ, didn't physically go on, but it was a statement

01:14:15.980 to TMZ and TMZ, you know, with all respect to Harvey, it's considered a tabloid publication.

01:14:20.700 They pay for news.

01:14:21.740 It's, you know, it's it doesn't have the greatest reputation in the field of actual lawyers and judges who practice law for a living.

01:14:29.380 But in any event, that's what he did. And it reached a lot of people. They have wide reach.

01:14:34.560 The Lance Twiggs video statement, Ashley, he's been given use immunity for this statement.

01:14:43.800 Can you explain what that means? Yeah, definitely.

01:14:46.120 So use immunity means that the government cannot use what he says against him.

01:14:50.340 It doesn't mean that he's immune. So if they found independent evidence that he was somehow involved and they find that and it's not based on his statement, then they can still prosecute him.

01:14:59.660 So they're not limited in their ability to actually go after him.

01:15:02.740 They're just limited in their ability to use his statement or anything that they get from his statement.

01:15:07.860 And so that allows them to actually play this.

01:15:10.340 It undercuts any cross-examination to a certain extent about you got this blanket immunity because he's only got this limited use immunity.

01:15:17.280 now the reason they're putting him on the stand well via video um the reason that well let's just

01:15:25.400 start with that the reason they're doing it via video you tell me ashley is to prevent cross

01:15:29.880 examination yes oh yeah this was so interesting legally you know you've got typically you don't

01:15:35.400 have witnesses so that's the first thing typically the defense doesn't get to subpoena witnesses at

01:15:39.720 these hearings so you know that's surprising because they don't need him he's got a statement

01:15:43.220 that the officer can just get up there they don't even have to play the statement he could literally

01:15:47.040 say, hey, this guy told me this, and that's admissible. So, you know, the fact that they

01:15:51.440 actually were trying to get him, but he's also an out-of-state witness. So I thought this was a

01:15:55.640 really interesting part of it. The defense was trying to get a court order to compel him from

01:16:00.100 another state to come into the state of Utah to testify. And that's a big deal. A lot of people

01:16:04.820 don't really realize that, that you can't just subpoena someone from another state and force 0.62

01:16:08.680 them to come into a different state to testify, because you're essentially forcing them to cross

01:16:12.460 state lines. You have to get a court order of need. And when you're doing that, what you have

01:16:16.740 to tell the judges, I actually need this witness and there's no other way I can get this evidence

01:16:21.120 in without this witness being forced to travel into the state to testify. So what the defense

01:16:26.540 was asking, they were never going to get, I mean, that was just insane that they thought they would

01:16:29.600 get that. They're never going to get a judge to compel a person to actually enter Utah to testify.

01:16:35.480 So, you know, the fact that they really thought that that might have happened was surprising to

01:16:39.520 me. I think it was just an effort to sort of some smoke and mirrors, maybe.

01:16:43.060 Why? Why is he necessary at all, Viva? Because they've got I understand this is the guy who would we're going to allege received text messages and a letter from the accused killer confessing.

01:17:00.160 but they have those writings. They have the text messages, the prosecution, they have the letter,

01:17:07.200 you know, this isn't a trial where you need him to authenticate everything and you need him to

01:17:12.420 contextualize. Like you can half-ass all of that at a preliminary hearing to show the judge,

01:17:17.740 you make a proffer as the lawyer. I'm, we will be able to call him. We will be able to authenticate.

01:17:22.540 We will be getting all these documents in through him. Here they are judge in which Tyler Robinson

01:17:27.140 says, I did it. So like, what is the point of putting this guy on via video to say all of that

01:17:34.340 operating within the bounds of what I know and what I don't know and what I know that I don't

01:17:38.260 know? You know, I'm not a criminal lawyer. I don't know if there's a purely strategic reason

01:17:43.660 to show the world that they have Lance Twiggs and that he hasn't absconded, like was the rumor back

01:17:48.540 in the day, you know, whether or not it's just to quell certain conspiracy theories and to show

01:17:52.420 the evidence just to the folks out there who say you know that they have the wrong guy my concern

01:17:58.960 with this and I'm going to defer to Ashley and Dave on this is people are now saying oh he's not

01:18:04.000 being able to be compelled as a witness when my understanding is it's only for the preliminary

01:18:07.880 hearing and he can potentially be compelled as a witness by the defense at the trial and so it's

01:18:13.360 not like he's being totally precluded from any involvement and all that they have going forward

01:18:17.440 for a conviction is this video evidence. It's lending to some confusion. But my understanding

01:18:22.440 and subject to verification and confirmation from Ashley and Dave, he's not they can't compel him

01:18:27.320 now. But in theory, he could be compelled as a witness at the trial for the for the benefit of

01:18:31.880 the defense, if they so choose, and that he's not been given immunity and now can have nothing

01:18:35.960 further to do with this case. Completely. And nor could Ashley, nor could they play this little

01:18:43.500 video they've got going at trial. Like if the defendant has the right to cross-examine and if

01:18:49.080 he doesn't actually show up physically at the trial, the jury will never see this.

01:18:52.760 Exactly. And that's what the law says is he has to be available for cross-examination.

01:18:57.900 Whether or not they do cross-examine him, that's a different story. But that means that the

01:19:01.420 prosecution has to actually bring him and he has to be available for cross-examination. Otherwise,

01:19:06.500 they cannot admit this out-of-court statement in. And typically what happens is he would actually

01:19:11.340 take the stand, he would testify. And if he said something different than what's on this recorded

01:19:15.820 statement, then they would bring that in. But if he says exactly what's on this recorded statement,

01:19:20.100 the jury's just going to hear from his mouth. They're not going to hear this recorded statement,

01:19:23.220 but he 100% has to be available at trial. The only way that he's not, not has to be there for

01:19:29.300 this preliminary hearing is because the rules of evidence don't fully apply. You don't have

01:19:33.580 a right to confront witnesses at the preliminary hearing like you do at a trial. So Dave, this is

01:19:39.560 a PR play. That's, I mean, that's what's becoming clear that they, there are cameras in this

01:19:44.660 courtroom. They're limited. That was a whole big legal fight that they had on whether there would

01:19:49.960 be cameras, where they'll be positioned, what they'll be allowed to show. But we did get camera,

01:19:55.500 a camera in there, not we, the Megan Kelly show, but we, the media. So we are going to see this

01:20:00.980 hearing. We're live streaming again at the entire thing at youtube.com slash Megan Kelly. If you

01:20:05.800 guys want to dip in at any moment in the day. It begins every day except for Wednesday. It's

01:20:10.600 going to begin at 11 a.m. Eastern. On Wednesday, it starts earlier, I think. I can't remember off

01:20:16.660 the top of my head, but what time, Steve? Oh, okay. On Wednesday, it starts later, 3 p.m. Eastern.

01:20:23.600 But this is a PR play for the nation writ large and for the Utah jury pool, Dave, to put this

01:20:31.720 Luna on the stand, so to speak, via video, because you know why? What we're not discussing is

01:20:38.720 there's been a massive controversy over this alleged confession from Tyler Robinson to Lance

01:20:45.580 Twiggs, a.k.a. Luna, because it sounds made up. The text exchange between them is so on the nose

01:20:57.200 and artificial sounding that even those of us who believe tyler robinson is the shooter

01:21:04.400 have looked at it like what even is that you know like and i actually for one wonder whether

01:21:10.580 the video statement is going to include if i were the prosecutor i'd i'd include this

01:21:14.200 what's what's with the formal verbiage between the two of you like you were roommates you were

01:21:23.360 allegedly lovers like why are you talking like a couple of shakespearean actors as opposed to what

01:21:31.120 we would envision two gen z young men discussing it's just very strange and i'll read some of it

01:21:37.760 but do you think that's what's happening here i do think they are calling lance wiggs for the

01:21:43.820 purpose of making sure you you see it all in context and that even though he's not gonna be

01:21:48.920 there in person that you're going to see that yes they he can fill in the gaps uh you had the

01:21:54.600 handwritten notes the note that said i had the opportunity to take out charlie you're going to

01:21:58.440 read that and then he had the text message to twig saying i had enough of of his hatred and then you

01:22:04.880 had the stuff on discord right you had the uh the fact that robinson also confessed on discord

01:22:10.760 saying it was me at uh uvu yesterday so you have all this stuff so it's not just one that's why

01:22:18.740 if they want to say, I don't believe the one message.

01:22:21.840 Well, how do you explain all three messages

01:22:23.320 that are consistent with each other?

01:22:25.880 Okay, just FYI, this is just breaking.

01:22:29.860 Erica and Charlie's parents left the courtroom

01:22:33.000 when a police officer, this is via Matt, Finn and Fox,

01:22:36.260 when a police officer started describing the moments

01:22:39.760 when Charlie was shot and killed on the campus last September.

01:22:43.600 It was actually, I confirmed with my team,

01:22:45.360 which is monitoring this in real time.

01:22:47.260 it was just the soundbite that we just played. But the family doesn't know exactly where it's

01:22:52.680 going. So they do not wish to hear any details of Charlie's actual murder, the actual moments,

01:22:59.580 and they're, we're told, going to be protecting themselves from hearing any of that. They don't

01:23:05.820 want to see the video. They don't want to hear the details. Who on earth could blame them? I

01:23:11.180 don't know how you could look at that video. As somebody who really deeply cared about

01:23:17.020 Charlie Kirk and was was genuinely a friend of his and he was he of mine it's been hard enough

01:23:23.660 like I wish I had never seen it I really do I wish I had never laid eyes on that and I think

01:23:27.600 most people who have seen it can relate to that even if they didn't know Charlie it's deeply

01:23:32.280 disturbing and for the family to have to see that and hear details around it would be too much so

01:23:38.400 his parents who have remained entirely tight-lipped and private around Charlie's death

01:23:44.440 um erica who's going to be there the entire five days we're told she's she's his representative

01:23:51.300 she's the mother of his children it's very heavy so they they've left for now who could blame them

01:23:59.060 back to the text messages okay again they're bizarre that they are strange um and one of

01:24:06.920 the things i think that the prosecution needs to establish through through lance twigs is

01:24:13.600 show us some other text exchanges between the two of you because i want to know if this is how you

01:24:20.480 he really talked like is this how tyler robinson talks or texts because it's very strange sounding

01:24:28.020 i mean i've got 30 years on tyler robinson he's 23 and i don't i've never spoken this formally

01:24:34.640 to anyone in my life including in legal papers it's very strange though his little add-ons my

01:24:39.960 love. It's very bizarre. But in any event, here's some of what they're going to introduce. And I

01:24:46.300 know they're going to introduce it because this is in the charging document they use to charge

01:24:50.480 Robinson. On September 10th, 2022, the roommate, not 2022, it would have been 2025. September 10th,

01:25:00.900 the roommate received a text message from Tyler Robinson, which read, quote, drop what you're

01:25:06.340 doing. Look under my keyboard. The roommate looked under the keyboard and found a note

01:25:10.520 that read, quote, I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I'm going to take it. End

01:25:17.020 quote. Police found a photograph of this note. The following text exchange then took place.

01:25:24.180 The roommate responded, what? With multiple question marks. You're joking, right? Robinson,

01:25:30.220 I am still okay, my love, but I'm stuck in Orem for a little while longer yet.

01:25:36.600 There we go.

01:25:37.320 Like, I played this soundbite one time of this woman pretending she was at a Renaissance fair

01:25:41.660 reading these texts, and it was funny because she was funny and she kind of added the dramatic 0.63

01:25:47.880 flair, but she's not wrong.

01:25:50.020 It kind of has that feel to it, which is one of the reasons why people don't believe it,

01:25:54.880 And we're not going to ignore the realities around this stuff.

01:25:59.340 As we go through this, we've got to talk about what people are feeling and how they're reacting.

01:26:04.180 Shouldn't be long until I can come home, but I got to grab my rifle still.

01:26:09.300 To be honest, I had hoped to keep this secret till I died of old age.

01:26:13.480 I am sorry to involve you.

01:26:15.700 Roommate, you weren't the one who did it, right?

01:26:17.980 Robinson, I am.

01:26:19.720 I'm sorry.

01:26:20.880 Roommate, I thought they caught the person.

01:26:22.480 robinson no they grabbed some crazy old dude then interrogated someone in similar clothing

01:26:27.860 i had planned to grab my rifle from my drop point shortly after but most of that side of town got

01:26:33.060 locked down it's quiet almost enough to get out but there's one vehicle lingering roommate why

01:26:38.400 robinson why did i do it roommate yeah robinson i had enough of his hatred some hate can't be

01:26:44.840 negotiated out. I just had like, this is the piece of this that always gets me because

01:26:56.420 if the, if Tyler Robinson shot Charlie because of the trans thing and Tyler was having an affair

01:27:03.700 with a trans furry person, I, I can't help but feel, I don't know if the word is responsible,

01:27:14.280 but I have a lot of emotions around that because Charlie and I over the years discussed the trans

01:27:20.420 thing many times privately and publicly. And there was an earlier turning point event at which I went

01:27:25.740 and I saw it. This is like a year prior to, if not more, the one I mentioned where Charlie wanted me

01:27:33.460 to talk about. And once again, similar to with the Epstein thing and Pam Bondi, he wanted me to talk

01:27:38.040 about the trans thing on his show. And he said, can you, can you please, I'm going to ask you

01:27:42.100 questions about it. Can you please explain to our audience why it's a thing and why it's a big deal?

01:27:46.320 And he wasn't yet at the point where he felt comfortable talking about it himself.

01:27:51.280 And he told me that his sister, who didn't share exactly the same politics as Charlie,

01:27:57.180 had been listening to our show on that issue and that we were starting to persuade her

01:28:03.060 on this, you know, that it was wrong what was happening in girl sports and that

01:28:07.880 was wrong, what was happening in women's spaces and so on. And Charlie wasn't yet out there on

01:28:12.640 this issue. And I, I can't help but feel some sort of like responsibility in getting Charlie

01:28:18.540 talking about it more. And this is my own private stuff to work out, but I'm just sharing it with

01:28:23.640 you because he did start talking about it more. He started talking about it a lot more. And Charlie

01:28:29.440 appears to have made the fatal mistake of talking about it to young people on college campuses,

01:28:34.960 where it would get into the ear of someone like Tyler Robinson, who was obviously disturbed,

01:28:42.360 not mentally insane by a legal standard, but obviously disturbed. And if you believe the

01:28:48.360 prosecution, it was the trigger that led to the release of his trigger against Charlie and took

01:28:56.920 his life. So anyway, this is just, it's awful to read and it's awful to consider. I had enough of

01:29:03.320 his hatred some hate can't be negotiated out and then goes on to talk about trying to retrieve his

01:29:08.180 rifle the question how long have you been planning this Robinson a bit over a week I believe I can

01:29:15.280 get close to it his gun but there's a squad car parked right by it I think they already swept the

01:29:19.380 spot but I don't want to chance it I wish I had circled back and grabbed it earlier talks about

01:29:24.740 his grandpa's rifle I don't know if it had a serial number but it wouldn't trace to me I had to worry

01:29:29.720 about Prince. I left it in a bush. I had to change outfits. It's very detailed on what he

01:29:35.000 allegedly did. He wrapped it in a towel. And then he writes this, which is also raised eyebrows on

01:29:41.100 this. Could this possibly be real? Remember how I was engraving bullets? The fucking messages are

01:29:47.980 mostly a big meme. If I see notices bulge UWU on Fox News, Fox News is what he writes. I might have 1.00

01:29:57.340 a stroke. All right, I'm going to have to leave it. That really fucking sucks that he's not going

01:30:02.020 to be able to get his gun. Judging from today, I'd say grandpa's gun does just fine. I don't know. 0.99

01:30:08.580 I think that was a $2,000 scope. Then Robinson writes, delete this exchange. Then he writes,

01:30:14.980 my dad wants photos of the rifle, which the father would also say later that he saw the picture of

01:30:19.780 his son on TV and thought it was his son and demanded photos of the rifle from his boy to

01:30:24.460 see like, who's got it? Like, I want a picture of you with it right now. Cause I'm seeing a photo

01:30:28.660 of what I think is grandpa's gun on the news as belonging to the shooter. Uh, and Robinson writes,

01:30:33.960 my dad wants photos of the rifle. He says, grandpa wants to know who has what the feds

01:30:37.280 released a photo of the rifle. It's very unique. He's calling me right now, not answering

01:30:40.600 since Trump, Trump got into office. My dad's been pretty diehard MAGA Robinson. I'm going to turn

01:30:45.460 myself in willingly. One of my neighbors here is a deputy for the sheriff. Then you are all I worry

01:30:52.640 about love roommate I'm much more worried about you Robinson don't talk to the media please don't

01:30:57.660 take interviews or make comments if police ask you questions ask for a lawyer and stay silent

01:31:01.640 that's just one there's also a letter from Robinson reiterating reiterating things about

01:31:06.840 Charlie Kirk had the opportunity to take out Charlie Cook and I took it this is beforehand

01:31:12.700 though saying I could be dead if you're reading this or facing a long prison sentence and then

01:31:17.920 allegedly went on discord and said more so all of this i mean honestly dave it's it's up to the

01:31:25.160 judge entirely right there's no other person they have to convince and this judge is going to take

01:31:30.860 one look at this and say what probable cause is found let's move to trial and then you have the

01:31:37.820 long process of discovery and then it gets to trial and the death penalty remember is still

01:31:43.240 on the table. One thing the judge could have done when the judge decided to sanction the

01:31:48.540 prosecutors, and I think he should not have sanctioned the prosecutors, but he still,

01:31:54.040 despite that, refused to take the death penalty off the table. He could have done that. We saw

01:31:58.500 that in Idaho when it came to the doomsday cult mom, that the judge there didn't like the

01:32:04.620 prosecutor's behavior, so they took the death penalty off the table there. That's not happening

01:32:09.320 here. Yeah, they asked for that. The defense said that the punishment should be that the death

01:32:15.320 penalty gets removed for the prosecutor making those statements to TMZ. And the judge said,

01:32:19.980 no, that we're not going to do that. You've got to pay for their legal fees and filing the motion

01:32:24.400 to hold you in contempt, which then people say, well, that's a little silly because

01:32:28.140 this is a public defender. Like the state's already paying for the legal fees, but okay,

01:32:33.580 whatever viva back to those text messages they do sound bizarre they do sound odd and what do

01:32:41.860 you make of my own theory that if the prosecution is wise they will introduce some sort of earlier

01:32:49.060 text exchanges between these two to show that this was the the way they spoke to one another

01:32:55.120 well look uh i was a teenager once uh you know when when you're in love and you reread your

01:33:00.500 love letters from, you know, 1996, they are all pretentious, bizarrely written stuff in the first

01:33:06.420 place. Okay, pictures or it didn't happen, Viva. That box has long been burned. But no, when you

01:33:15.140 say it's bizarre, it is bizarre. But you're talking about a boy who's LARPing as a girl and a furry

01:33:20.900 animal. I don't know what normal would look like among these people. But the bottom line, I

01:33:26.220 appreciate people think it's self-serving it's like the orgy of evidence that they had in the

01:33:30.580 movie minority report oh you got him describing the gun what he did etc it's going to come down

01:33:35.440 to the metadata on those text messages and whether or not they are authentic people online uh suggesting

01:33:40.860 that the text messages were sent when tyler robinson was already in custody that will get

01:33:45.600 fleshed out at trial and the metadata the time sent the time received the devices from which

01:33:50.680 they were sent and received is the evidence that you're going to see at trial not at the preliminary

01:33:54.940 hearing. And if it turns out that the metadata doesn't jive with the timeline, then people

01:33:59.260 reassess them. But bottom line, these are a bunch of, you know, everyone's the hero in their own

01:34:03.520 story. These are young people, mentally ill, you know, revolutionaries in their own mind. 0.98

01:34:08.420 They're going to sound like pretentious revolutionaries in text messages. And I have 1.00

01:34:12.340 no difficulty believing that that's how they'd be written among this demographic. But it'll come

01:34:17.460 down to metadata and actual evidence that these messages were sent and received by the people who

01:34:21.840 allegedly sent and received them. You know, that the metadata around those text messages actually

01:34:29.680 honestly could be hugely important in this case. I'm thinking of Alex Murdoch, you know,

01:34:36.440 Alec Murdoch and all the data that came from his car that just proved how he sped up between going

01:34:44.680 to visit his mother to make sure he got there and back in time to kill his family, but make it look

01:34:52.220 like he had done this longer visit than he had. And all of those tech advances doomed him, you

01:34:59.180 know? And in today's day and age, there should be no doubt in this judge's mind at the end of this

01:35:06.680 week or ultimately in the jury's mind about who sent those text messages. Like it actually is

01:35:14.000 knowable, at least the device from which those text messages came. I mean, I suppose you can't

01:35:20.740 ever disprove there wasn't somebody lurking over the shoulder.

01:35:23.780 Sitting there taking his phone and doing that. No, we definitely, and I think we will get some

01:35:28.340 testimony probably from Mr. Twiggs that this is a way that they talked. This was sort of a romance

01:35:33.340 language or something like that that they were engaging in. But I think these texts are really

01:35:37.820 important because this is a death penalty case. And so everything we're talking about, I think,

01:35:42.460 is relevant to the fact that this is a death penalty case. This is not a whodunit. I don't

01:35:46.500 believe that this is a case where the defense even thinks that they've got a shot at walking

01:35:50.760 him at an acquittal. I mean, I don't think that's where we're at. I think all of the things that

01:35:55.240 they're doing right now is because of the death penalty. Utah, the state, wants the death penalty

01:36:00.260 and the defense doesn't want the death penalty. That's what this is about. And all of this overkill

01:36:04.760 with this preliminary hearing, all this extra evidence and stuff, I think it's really to try

01:36:10.520 to sway the potential jury pool on a very powerful issue that we're facing in death penalty

01:36:16.140 litigation, and that is residual doubt. You know, it used to be that people didn't want to impose

01:36:21.180 the death penalty for various reasons. Now what we're seeing is really they don't want to impose

01:36:26.820 it because of what's called residual doubt, meaning that they found the person guilty beyond

01:36:31.060 a reasonable doubt, but they had a little residual doubt, a little what if. What if that fingerprint

01:36:35.740 didn't match? What if that wasn't him, you know, sending those text messages? What if that bullet

01:36:41.000 fragment that didn't match? What if that meant someone else actually did the shooting? That

01:36:44.600 little what if, that residual doubt, that is what saves people's lives in these death penalty cases.

01:36:49.400 And I think the prosecution is trying to get out in front of that and get rid of all those what

01:36:53.180 ifs. And I think that's why they're sort of going overkill. And I think that's why the texts are so

01:36:57.100 important because it goes to motive and they just want to just oversell it at this point so that

01:37:01.520 they're not facing that issue with that residual doubt. I mean, I think they are definitely going

01:37:07.480 for full acquittal, Dave. I actually think that they're banking it much in the same way.

01:37:14.660 There was speculation about the Carmelo Anthony case and had one of those jurors made it on who

01:37:22.080 was saying like, I just couldn't find against a brother. You know, like there was at least one

01:37:26.400 black juror who got dismissed for saying exactly that. It was like, okay, thank you for your 1.00

01:37:30.800 honesty. If you can get one juror onto this eventual jury who doesn't believe Tyler Robinson

01:37:40.780 had anything to do with it, thinks it was Israel or it was some group of trans Tifa, you know,

01:37:48.280 without actual evidence, but there's been enough in the ether. This is Erica Kirk's fear

01:37:53.480 that you you're going for jury nullification, basically. 1.00

01:37:57.700 Right. But that would be a hung jury if you had one. You need everyone to get a full acquittal. And it's hard. You know, you can have one Trojan horse, someone who lies, someone who's there with an agenda to get on that jury. But it's hard to convince the rest of the jury there. I mean, you have 12 jurors and that's going to take a lot to convince all 12, especially with the evidence so strong.

01:38:19.340 So I understand why Erica Kirk would feel that way. It's the prosecution's greatest fear that you'd have jury nullification. You're not supposed to nullify a verdict. You're supposed to follow the evidence in the law.

01:38:30.560 But there's nothing to stop a juror from deciding that, nope, I'm not going to send this poor young man who looks so sweet and wholesome in his sweater and oversized glasses will probably fit in with like they did with the Menendez brothers or the murder at Marjory Stoneman Douglas, that perhaps that person will keep a guilty verdict from happening and then keep the death penalty from happening.

01:38:53.700 That's possible. But I don't see any situation where there would be a full acquittal.

01:38:57.480 here again this is like i'm not making light believe me i'm not making light of charlie's

01:39:03.360 death but here's the renaissance woman because it does bring home what to me sounds like the 0.51

01:39:08.900 absurdity around the way they speak and i i personally can't even i can't read the text 0.63

01:39:14.320 message anymore without thinking of this woman's rendition because if you go online for two minutes

01:39:19.920 you will find just thousands of people who feel as she does, that it's too theatrical,

01:39:26.800 that it's nonsensical, that it sounds like something like a chat GPT would have written up

01:39:31.820 for, you know, give me confession from, you know, whatever Gen X or Gen Z or I should say,

01:39:40.280 who's in some weird relationship. Watch.

01:39:43.540 Hello, my love. You have no doubt heard of the shooting and I must admit,

01:39:47.680 "'Twas I.

01:39:49.120 "'I had hoped to keep this secret to the grave,

01:39:51.700 "'but alas, I have not lasted the better part of an hour.

01:39:55.820 "'Why have I committed this act?

01:39:58.240 "'Twas the hate of the man.

01:40:00.000 "'Reason had no purchase in the poor soil of his soul.

01:40:03.440 "'You have not asked, but in case you were wondering

01:40:05.920 "'where I hid the rifle, my love,

01:40:08.080 "'twas over yonder by that lingering squad car.

01:40:11.360 "'My old man shall surely be missing it presently.

01:40:14.540 do you remember how i was engraving bullets the other day in front of you well it was just to do

01:40:23.120 a big meme look no further into that also i shall now misquote my own meme oo woo oh whoa

01:40:30.600 probably makes no difference i apologize to involve you and for this text to be so short

01:40:38.700 but i am on the lamb in conclusion i beg you keep this from the prying eyes of the fuzz

01:40:44.900 pretty good viva right i mean it captures sort of what a lot of us are like looking at like what

01:40:52.420 what do you mean i'd hope to keep he says i'd hope this take to take this to the grave and yet

01:40:57.180 here he is the same day of the murder confessing it in multiple forms i i still think i mean if you

01:41:02.880 are a revolutionary in your own mind and you think of yourself as a hero and you're in some sort of

01:41:07.320 shakespearean you know suicide pact type love affair i i could see you writing it like that

01:41:13.200 the other the other element i forget who it was i think it might have been matt walsh who said at

01:41:17.700 the time that this could have been drafted as sort of like ask chat gpt how to draft a text thread

01:41:23.140 to ex exonerate or not inculpate my friend in this sort of like they did in breaking bad when 0.91

01:41:28.780 walter white called up his wife skylar and you know called her a bitch and did that because he 0.80

01:41:34.000 knew that people were listening so maybe this is self-serving to get lance twigs out of this 0.98

01:41:37.660 um but no i still don't have difficulty believing that these kids uh would would talk like that

01:41:42.400 among themselves and think of themselves as heroes while murdering a man who truly was a hero

01:41:47.140 right like lance twigs like it was not you was it it was indeed it was i uh let's just check

01:41:55.220 back in on the preliminary hearing this just was testified to by officer badgley bagley again

01:42:00.520 apologies who um remains on the stand listening that there was a male individual on top of the

01:42:07.240 roof that was there at the time of shooting did they describe what his movements were

01:42:12.540 they did they stated that he ran to the edge dropped down crawled uh got in a prone position

01:42:18.740 um i'm gonna stop you right there you ran to the edge what direction and what edge

01:42:23.460 uh running west and southwest of the lossy building so ran towards the tent where charlie

01:42:29.740 creek was so they could get a line of sight um and then the individual stood up after the shooting

01:42:37.500 and ran northeast on top of the low seat building okay um you mentioned that this individual on the

01:42:47.220 video dropped off off the edge did you did you get that much what happened what what else was

01:42:53.120 described to you um then well at that moment so i knew that there was possibly a shooter on on the

01:42:59.600 run. So Ashley, what we can hear him setting up, they're going to say, and this is Tyler

01:43:07.340 Robinson and so on and so forth. But what, so what does the defense do with that? Do they try

01:43:11.480 to pick it apart or does the fence know we're going to trial? So we're not going to show any

01:43:17.220 of our cards here where it's like no questions or do they realize this is a fight for public

01:43:22.960 opinion too. And they do have to do something. I think the best move for the defense is to try

01:43:28.260 to lock in some testimony that they think that they can use at trial. So this is sort of a

01:43:32.840 pretrial chance to lock in this officer's testimony and also plant some seeds if they

01:43:37.780 are going for that residual doubt, plant some seeds, you know, and kind of pick around the

01:43:41.600 corners. The problem is that this is a pretty solid case. I mean, not the problem, but that's

01:43:47.120 a problem for the defense, obviously. You know, it's a pretty solid case. And so I think they're

01:43:51.040 going to have a hard time actually coming at this officer with anything difficult. They're just

01:43:55.400 going to need to pick around the corners and hope that they can get something that they can use

01:43:58.780 later on. Yeah. I mean, everybody's got some tricky strategy to unleash as they navigate

01:44:07.780 through this. Guys, thank you very much. Viva's going to stay with us. Dave and Ashley have got

01:44:11.040 to go, but we are back with Mark Garagos and Matt Murphy on their thoughts on what we've been seeing

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01:46:06.700 Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly.

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01:46:40.760 Viva stays with us as we monitor day one of the Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing,

01:46:46.440 but we're also going to bring in Mark Garagos and Matt Murphy. Now they're attorneys and hosts of

01:46:50.940 the in the well podcast that's on our MK media podcast network, which you can find at mktruecrime.com

01:46:58.220 and wherever you get your podcasts, if you just type in in the well, it will come up or MK true

01:47:03.300 crime, multiple ways of finding them guys. Great to see you. Thanks for being here, Viva. Welcome

01:47:07.780 back to you. So they've just broken for lunch in the hearing, but just prior to doing that,

01:47:15.200 they were finishing up with this officer on the stand and he was being cross-examined by

01:47:21.820 Catherine Nestor, who represented Corey Richens, the woman who killed her husband with fentanyl

01:47:29.260 in his drink and then did a world tour, not really, but a media tour trying to promote her

01:47:36.340 children's book trying to teach children how to grieve well and loss of a parent ridiculous in

01:47:41.420 any event she didn't get uh that that wife off cory origins but now she's hoping that she can

01:47:47.580 get tyler robinson off um she was cross-examining here on well let's just play the first soundbite

01:47:56.120 um the machines you walk through a tsa in the airport where it checks to see if you're carrying

01:48:03.680 anything metal, what we all had to go through to get in the courtroom, were there any machines

01:48:07.800 like that set up or being used on campus that day? No. And as far as you know, were there any

01:48:15.840 drones that were flying above campus that day? Not that I know of. And did anyone ever talk to

01:48:24.500 you about covering anything near or on top of or in the low C building? Were you ever signed

01:48:30.740 that area before the shooting no do you know who was i don't and when you got up to the roof

01:48:39.820 that afternoon was anybody around that was law enforcement no nobody on the roof no nobody on

01:48:48.680 the stairway nobody on the walkway oh okay and in the state of utah is a campus a gun-free zone

01:49:03.000 are students allowed to have guns on campus it's an open terry state so yes

01:49:06.900 interesting uh guys thanks for being here where's she going with that uh mark garagos 0.99

01:49:14.920 No mags, no drones, no cops on the roof. Inadequate protection is really what she's arguing. 1.00

01:49:23.060 Correct. And by the way, for those who are conspiracy theorists, it fits exactly into what

01:49:31.960 many of the conspiracy theories are. And if you're in a criminal case, all you need is one person

01:49:39.780 and one person to start asking those questions.

01:49:43.240 I don't understand why this wasn't here.

01:49:45.940 I don't understand why that wasn't here

01:49:47.440 unless somebody can use as kind of a cutout or a proxy.

01:49:52.740 So that would be my guess as to where she's going.

01:49:56.060 She certainly, this is not a civil case, so to speak,

01:49:59.660 where you would be talking about liability

01:50:02.660 for failure to provide security.

01:50:05.700 So the kind of logical, if you will,

01:50:08.640 If I were a prosecutor and I'll leave that for Matt, because God forbid, that's the last thing I'd ever want to be is the the prosecutor generally would be jumping up and down, objecting to this, saying this is completely irrelevant.

01:50:24.360 This is a fishing expedition. And where are they going with this? This isn't discovery. It's a probable cause hearing. How many times I've heard guys like Matt tell me that.

01:50:34.020 that makes a lot of sense matt that that that's what she's doing like because if you believe

01:50:40.880 that tyler robinson was being used as a tool by some other nefarious actor to pull the trigger

01:50:49.980 or that he may not have been the trigger man and that this the whole thing was done in a different

01:50:55.060 way maybe you do want to establish oh security was conveniently missing from the scene that day

01:51:03.400 Right. Cause like the whole, you can call it conspiracy theories, whatever, but the whole

01:51:07.100 business of conspiracy theory is, you know, better you, there's an inside job. There's

01:51:13.160 something happening that you don't understand unless you're one of the smart ones. And one

01:51:17.900 of the things that's been done is to remove security apparatus from this, from the roof,

01:51:23.580 from the whatever, such that the plan can unfold as, as expected. And so, yeah, why else would

01:51:32.620 this defense lawyer be going to that place? Well, yeah, I'm going to I'm going to take a position

01:51:39.840 here that I'm going to probably contradict myself on numerous times during the penitency of this

01:51:45.040 case. You know, there are three main areas of attack in the appellate process. Megan,

01:51:50.920 they accuse the judge of improper instruction. They accuse the prosecutor of prosecutorial

01:51:56.980 misconduct, and they will accuse the defense of what is known as IAC or ineffective assistance

01:52:02.120 of counsel. So I think that some of this is just checking the boxes. And I think we're going to

01:52:10.940 see more of that by her. I think that's the generous interpretation of it. There's a thing

01:52:17.960 known as the Dunning-Kruger effect that I know you're familiar with. And that is basically,

01:52:21.760 if you're really stupid, how would you know it? And the most interesting thing to me about 1.00

01:52:27.200 watching this preliminary hearing this morning are the comments because it is shocking how many

01:52:33.760 people are buying into the conspiracy theories and how could it be this and and mark's exactly

01:52:40.240 right it's like the the dream the home run is one of those loons gets on the jury and somehow hangs

01:52:47.620 it up and i listened to the last segment dave erenberg my friend was uh was exactly right on

01:52:52.760 that. They would love to hang it or establish some sort of lingering doubt that's going to

01:52:58.120 carry over into the penalty phase. And remember, this is only a preliminary hearing. The judge

01:53:03.320 only has to make a call as a magistrate. That's the role he's playing today, although he is going

01:53:08.840 to be the trial judge as well. It's just a probable cause hearing. And by the end of today,

01:53:15.020 there's probably going to be enough probable cause to bind him over, which is going to happen.

01:53:19.000 here's something else that was asked moments ago just to set it up viva there was we made

01:53:26.940 reference to it uh earlier there was a man who was initially detained by police as the suspect

01:53:33.800 in this case who we were later told has nothing to do with this case his name is george zinn and

01:53:41.800 here's just a little bit about george zinn that we now know he has a lengthy criminal record in

01:53:46.920 Utah, dating back decades. The better documented prior cases include in the 80s to the 20s,

01:53:55.100 numerous arrests and convictions, too, for criminal trespass, disorderly conduct,

01:53:59.360 disrupting public meetings and other misdemeanor offenses tied to protests and political events.

01:54:06.460 Prosecutors describe him as a frequent repeat offender rather than someone known for violent

01:54:10.900 felonies 2013 salt lake city marathon bomb threat days after the boston marathon bombings in asked

01:54:17.680 race organizers whether they needed help setting up bombs at the marathon finish line they treated

01:54:25.080 it as a threat he was convicted served a year in prison mental health concerns court records

01:54:28.960 show uh the guy's got some issues there september he falsely confessed to shooting charlie resulting

01:54:36.100 in an obstruction of justice charge after he admitted that he was just trying to divert

01:54:40.060 investigators. In 2025, child sexual abuse material was found, more than 20 images on his

01:54:48.520 cell phone. After his detention, he pleaded guilty to two counts of sexual exploitation of a minor.

01:54:53.740 All this is very bad for this guy, George Zinn. One does wonder what he was doing at the Charlie

01:54:58.940 Kirk event in the first place, but you may recall this videotape of him moments after the shooting.

01:55:06.200 Watch.

01:55:36.200 For listening audiences, police pulling him away and putting him in a squad car and people screaming. And he confessed and he said like he did it. That's George Zinn. Watch what happened when Catherine Nestor raised the issue of George Zinn and this arrest with Officer Chris Bagley moments ago.

01:55:55.560 it was your understanding the person they took into custody was close by Mr. Kirk is that right

01:56:02.680 yep but it didn't occur to you that well that's not where I heard the shot come from they must

01:56:07.680 have the wrong person I should talk to somebody during the chaos moment no that's they said they

01:56:12.340 had a person in custody I figured those guys saw something I didn't see they took the person in

01:56:16.060 custody and I thought that was him okay okay so that now we're getting more on point Viva of trying 1.00

01:56:22.280 to make the cops look like idiots. You can't trust anything they said or did around this case. 1.00

01:56:28.600 Do you agree? That's where she's going. Well, I think she's just going with more is more for

01:56:33.180 the defense. Let them say something that they can then argue in the court of public opinion that 0.68

01:56:37.520 they can then use to have whoever is promoting theories that Tyler Robinson is innocent. You

01:56:43.120 know, you can have that fight in the court of public opinion and potentially poison the jury

01:56:47.360 pool. What I don't have no patience, but what I don't understand is people who think of other

01:56:54.640 theories like the exploding mic theory, and they actually claim to sincerely believe this despite

01:56:59.060 any sort of evidence. I can appreciate people saying Tyler Robinson is a patsy and they'll

01:57:04.160 attack the evidence. Just hold that thought for one second so I can tell people what you're

01:57:07.720 talking about. There is a theory on the Internet that Charlie wasn't shot by this .30-06 or any

01:57:14.660 other gun that the people who believe this was a planned assassination by some other nefarious

01:57:19.680 group had put a mic on Charlie that exploded and it made his shirt puff out and his necklace puff

01:57:28.080 out. And then I guess residual shrapnel injured his neck, but that this was a planned assassination

01:57:36.920 that in which the mic exploded and killed him as opposed to this gun. Go ahead.

01:57:42.880 Correct. Yes. I presume everybody was familiar with that. But, you know, the people who want to say Tyler Robinson couldn't have done it because a 30-06 doesn't behave like that, whatever that means, and that they have to find some other conspiracy theory.

01:57:56.320 What I think the defense is doing right now is just get them to say more that would allow, you know, the people out there promoting these ideas to pick holes in it, find contradictions.

01:58:04.800 Oh, you said there were no drones, but yet Charlie's team flew a drone early on in the event.

01:58:09.720 so if they were forbidden, how did the team fly these drones? This is all not to contradict the

01:58:15.480 preliminary here. There will be probable cause, period, full stop. I think they're just getting

01:58:19.900 as much as they can out there to muddy the waters between now and the trial. And I just want to,

01:58:25.640 I want to flesh one thing out also. George Zinn, people need to understand just how wild a

01:58:30.580 coincidence, if it's unrelated, that you have an old man with child sexual abuse material on his

01:58:35.140 phone causing a distraction so that the shooter can get away and people want to entertain what

01:58:41.240 I think are untenable conspiracy theories how about just ask some legitimate questions I put

01:58:45.120 it out on Twitter a while back you know who was on these discord chats did George Zinn know

01:58:50.420 something was going to happen there there were people who posted in advance that something big

01:58:54.120 was going to happen at the event we still don't have answers to those questions whether or not

01:58:57.980 the defense is going to say he was a patsy who did it but he was you know brainwashed by people

01:59:03.300 online will see. There are legitimate questions that have not yet been answered. George Zinn being

01:59:09.000 there, taking credit for it so that the shooter could get away, then getting caught with CSAM on

01:59:13.560 his phone. I would love to know if George Zinn had anything to do with any of the Discord chats

01:59:18.060 in advance. He's an old man with child sexual abuse material. He might be somehow anonymously 0.98

01:59:23.780 involved in Discord chats involving the furry community. And these are the questions that have

01:59:27.720 not yet been answered that don't exonerate Tyler Robinson, but might be indicative of a broader

01:59:33.120 conspiracy implicating others who were told for the time being no one else was involved it was

01:59:36.980 just tyler robinson that's very fair uh because the discord messages i read that some of the text

01:59:43.340 messages between tyler and lance twigs alleged earlier here's some of the discord messages again

01:59:48.940 it's like this gamer website where they both participated um this is from a washington post

01:59:54.680 article from september 15th of 25 the 22 year old suspect appears to have confessed to friends in

02:00:00.260 an online chat shortly before turning himself into law enforcement. Hey guys, I have bad news for you

02:00:05.320 all. Read a message from an account belonging to the suspect Tyler Robinson on discord. It was me

02:00:10.640 at UVU yesterday. I'm sorry for all of this. It was sent Thursday night, about two hours before

02:00:16.360 officials said Robinson was taken into custody. Charlie was killed on a Wednesday. A member of

02:00:21.580 the group chat shared an image of the conversation with the post discord provided a copy of the

02:00:26.020 message with the confession to authorities. The message was sent from Robinson's account to a

02:00:31.280 small private group of online friends. The discord conversation shared with the post shows members of

02:00:36.780 the group chat reacting to Kirk shooting Wednesday before the news broke that Robinson was allegedly

02:00:41.520 involved. The group had about 30 people and somebody wrote Charlie Kirk got shot. I just

02:00:47.580 saw the video. Holy shit. Roe did not deserve to go out like that. Sad. The only response from 0.99

02:00:52.600 Robinson's account came the next day, Thursday, with a message announcing, quote, bad news that

02:00:56.800 I just read. It goes on to say, to read, I'm surrendering through a sheriff friend in a few

02:01:02.480 moments. That was posted at 7.57 p.m. local time on Thursday in Utah. It continued, thanks for all

02:01:08.320 the good times and laughs. You've all been so amazing. Thank you all for everything. Robinson

02:01:13.660 was taken into custody two hours later at 10 p.m. that night, per the FBI director, Cash Patel.

02:01:19.400 um let's see one friend the they said no one responded to robinson that night but but the

02:01:27.000 next day one friend wrote that the apparent confession seemed to be true the friend asked

02:01:31.460 group members to quote pray for tyler and his repentance the new york times reported on a

02:01:36.920 conversation in a different discord chat group earlier the same day in that conversation robinson

02:01:42.420 joked that a doppelganger was trying to get him in trouble after law enforcement released images

02:01:49.380 of the shooting suspect who resembled Robinson.

02:01:54.640 Utah Governor Spencer Cox confirmed the existence of that conversation,

02:01:58.680 later saying that Robinson's friends did not believe it was actually him.

02:02:03.000 CBS News added at least three friends asked Robinson if he was the shooter,

02:02:06.540 saying the photos released by the FBI sure did look a lot like him.

02:02:10.060 He did not seem to refute it.

02:02:13.500 And then in one exchange, the sources said a friend appeared to tease Robinson,

02:02:17.780 joking he should avoid McDonald's.

02:02:20.000 That's where Luigi Mangione was arrested

02:02:22.360 after he killed allegedly UnitedHealthcare CEO,

02:02:26.920 the UnitedHealthcare CEO.

02:02:28.780 And then the account appearing to belong to Robinson responded,

02:02:32.220 better also get rid of this manifesto

02:02:34.480 and exact copy rifle I have lying around.

02:02:37.360 So all of that is going to come in, the Discord messages.

02:02:42.540 And, you know, Mark, you tell me as a defense lawyer,

02:02:45.440 When you've got that, you got that in writing on Discord, in addition to the text messages, weird though they may sound, to the lover, Lance Twiggs, and the alleged letter that he left for Lance Twiggs, which I believe we'll hear Lance Twiggs testify about in his video statement, how you deal with that?

02:03:06.180 Well, you know, I always I say it somewhat jokingly, but on the square that probable cause hearings are basically is my client breathing.

02:03:18.460 I say that with coming on the heels last week of doing a murder prelim and the judge actually special circumstance dismissed two of the defendants.

02:03:29.600 So kudos to her and caveat to my usual glib line.

02:03:37.280 What you deal with here is precisely what our other guests just detailed.

02:03:43.600 The fact that there just so happens to be somebody who obviously has issues, mental health challenges, to say the very least, who happens to be there at the exact same time,

02:03:58.580 who then gets arrested, who then confesses. It would be, to Matt's point, about ineffective

02:04:07.840 assistance of counsel. If you're the defense lawyer and you do not plumb that area and flesh

02:04:14.480 that out and do everything possible, you're going to get an ineffective assistance of counsel.

02:04:20.160 That is more than just a coincidence. Questions have to be asked about that, and rightfully so,

02:04:26.940 Even if you think they've got everything that they need to tie this up in a bow, and certainly there's no question that he's going to be held to answer in a probable cause proceeding.

02:04:38.960 At the same time, the standard for a conviction is beyond a reasonable doubt.

02:04:45.880 It's worlds and universes away from probable cause, and there are some serious questions as to what happened here.

02:04:54.620 When you ask an officer, like she did, that was a perfectly legitimate line of questioning.

02:05:02.160 Here you guys thought, nobody thought that they arrested a guy in an area where the sound didn't come from.

02:05:09.640 They, by the way, when you arrest somebody, guess what your standard is?

02:05:13.920 Your standard is something akin to probable cause.

02:05:18.200 So that is a perfectly viable and legitimate area of inquiry for her to be investigating.

02:05:26.180 Frankly, I'm a little surprised that the officer didn't have more of a fulsome response to that,

02:05:34.040 because anybody who is sentient would have known that was coming.

02:05:38.860 So, Matt, in other words, what we're seeing the defense set up here, perhaps, though not explicitly,

02:05:44.180 is Charlie was a sitting duck.

02:05:48.620 There was not a drone in the sky to look after him.

02:05:52.940 There was not a cop on the roof

02:05:55.000 to make sure that the roof was secure.

02:05:58.500 And everybody knows that that's a thing

02:06:00.720 because when Charlie was killed,

02:06:02.360 it was 14 months post-Butler

02:06:04.780 and the Trump assassination attempt

02:06:07.240 that there were no magnetometers,

02:06:11.100 that he was exposed, entirely exposed

02:06:14.100 And then when shots rang out, you found it entirely plausible as law enforcement that they came from the front of the arena, not the back, not a rooftop. You believe this guy, George Zinn and his confession and had no problem arresting him for the crime.

02:06:29.420 and it's it is sort of quietly setting up you know the possibility of somebody else was behind

02:06:38.560 this whole thing because we're going to get to they have three forensic experts the defense does

02:06:43.100 that they plan on calling and i'm sure one of them is going to be talking about how that bullet

02:06:47.100 was not able to be conclusively matched to the gun of tyler robinson that 30-06 i know i know we

02:06:53.960 talked in the last hour about how that doesn't mean it wasn't but it would be certainly better

02:06:58.160 for the prosecution if they had a match and they they don't. Yeah. Two things on that, Megan. Number

02:07:02.920 one, I really like Viva's comments about the idea of other people being involved. You know, you can

02:07:09.040 we see that all the time. You can have 20 other people involved in this case and it might even be

02:07:13.540 true. But the question is, does that ameliorate or does that somehow mitigate Tyler Robinson's

02:07:19.420 involvement? The answer to that is almost certainly no, at least in the guilt phase.

02:07:23.440 Maybe that comes out in the penalty phase. But, you know, going back to the bullet, this is one of those things that's been driving me crazy, Megan, this this whole time.

02:07:32.320 The defense filed a brief where they basically suggested to the world that the bullet didn't match.

02:07:38.920 OK, and I've got the quote written down, but they they write that that's something the defense can do, whatever.

02:07:44.800 and the prosecution came out and they got in trouble because they they not only said um it

02:07:50.520 was inconclusive but um they went on tmz with mark's buddy harvey levin who got him in trouble

02:07:56.460 and he said we are very confident in the rest of our evidence and the judge said that that violated

02:08:00.480 the um you know the the the bounds of the court order and he kind of slapped him on the wrist and

02:08:06.940 he said we're not going to dump the death penalty on that the the the best way i think to think

02:08:11.500 about this bullet this was a this was a large bullet that um that fragmented upon entry okay

02:08:17.880 and i don't know if this was a frangible round they haven't made that public yet but there are

02:08:21.680 certain bullets that are designed to disintegrate um some are used for hunting um they call them

02:08:26.760 varmint rounds i've never heard of a 30-06 varmint round but they must exist and that's never been

02:08:31.300 made public the best way to think of it megan is like if you have a murder scene and you have the

02:08:36.040 killer who picked up um like a wine glass for example and you know that there's a fingerprint

02:08:41.060 on the wine glass and then the wine glass shatters into a million pieces you're going to get an

02:08:45.600 inconclusive result for that too and a bullet is is similar the way they do the ballistic

02:08:51.500 comparisons um that's kind of how that works you can't get a fingerprint off shattered glass

02:08:57.460 what nobody's really been talking about um is that there are more than one ways there's more

02:09:03.540 than one way to ballistically match a firearm um and one of them is with expended shell casings and

02:09:09.240 He cycled. He cycled the casing. The casing found at the scene matched the rifle.

02:09:16.660 OK, so there's it's not just the bullet. And that rifle has his DNA on the trigger.

02:09:21.460 So there's plenty of forensic evidence. And Megan, you're exactly right.

02:09:25.080 One of these experts is going to say exactly that. I examined it and that wasn't the bullet.

02:09:30.640 And it couldn't have been you could have been fired from that gun.

02:09:33.340 We're going to see something like that either in this phase or in the trial.

02:09:38.040 The defense is going to come right back and they're going to say, of course, his DNA is on that gun.

02:09:44.200 He used that gun before.

02:09:45.780 That was a gun from his house.

02:09:47.320 And of course, there are casings that match it because he wasn't the one who planted the casings.

02:09:53.060 Somebody else threw the casings there.

02:09:55.040 If you've got George Zen, who's over there confessing and at the front, just coincidentally, you think it's a long stretch to have somebody throw some casings.

02:10:04.300 I mean, none of that. I get the fact that the inconclusive bullet is something that people have run with. But I promise you that the prosecution and you know this, Matt, that's why he went on to TMZ.

02:10:21.580 He was worried, he is worried that the public has taken that and run with it, and that's a significant, significant doubt if you get – by the way, as you know, if you've got a battle of the experts, what do jurors do with that?

02:10:43.580 I can't tell you how many times they told me, Al, we discounted the experts and we didn't come to that conclusion.

02:10:50.120 So, yeah, it's exactly right. I mean, it'd be a lot it'd be a lot more helpful for the defense if they didn't have the alleged confessions, you know, the text messages to Lance Twiggs, the discord messages and whatever he may or may not have said to police be a lot more helpful if they just had a bullet that couldn't be conclusively matched.

02:11:09.600 but they have more than that. I will show you this soundbite from Rob O'Neill, who I adore.

02:11:16.280 And he is, of course, a former Navy SEAL sniper who not only shot Osama bin Laden in the face,

02:11:24.540 but has been on some of our most daring and dangerous missions as part of SEAL Team 6 for

02:11:31.900 the past 20 plus years prior to his retirement. And here's what he said. He has no dog in this

02:11:38.780 hunt and this is what he said about this this wound on charlie and this gun just for me i mean

02:11:45.780 it it was off it right from the beginning for me it from uh do we not guard rooftops anymore

02:11:51.920 there's been assassinations assassination attempts all over the world why aren't we looking at

02:11:55.160 rooftops uh and then when i was sent the i was sent the video with this at the same message where

02:12:01.640 they said charlie kirk was just shot when i watched that horrific video he was obviously

02:12:05.200 dead before he hit the ground but the questions immediately started to come to me that was that

02:12:09.800 was not an entry wound that we saw we saw an exit wound so where'd that bullet come from you don't

02:12:13.560 bleed like and i've shot guys closer than the camera was uh and an exit an entry wound doesn't

02:12:19.020 look like that an exit wound does i could play you 20 videos like that from gun experts yeah i

02:12:26.000 love that guy too megan i can tell you right now he's wrong i watched that video that's an arterial

02:12:30.340 bleed from a from an entry wound. They recovered the entire bullet on the inside. Just it's

02:12:35.580 heavily fragmented and damaged. So love him. I think he's an American hero. He's dead wrong on

02:12:41.220 that one. And he's never he's never tried or presented this in this type of evidence in front

02:12:46.680 of a jury or slogged through. I'm glad to hear you disagree. That's what that's what we're here

02:12:52.600 for. But what what about Matt? You've heard, you know, many people believe that a 30 odd six and

02:12:59.600 that that gun and that that level bullet would never have not had an entry an exit wound that

02:13:06.580 the fact that you know there was this alleged surgeon who said oh charlie's got like a superman

02:13:12.140 like spine you know he was so strong that his bones stopped it that's why there wasn't an exit 0.97

02:13:17.100 wound and many people just said immediately that's utter bullshit that we don't believe that 0.83

02:13:23.680 And Mark Garagos, my friend, has seen probably more autopsies than I have after 17 years in homicide. 0.94

02:13:33.660 Bullets do weird things, and this thing fragmented.

02:13:36.480 They recovered the whole thing.

02:13:38.040 And when you hit bones, bullets break apart.

02:13:41.200 And I don't care if it's a .30-06.

02:13:42.680 That's the thing.

02:13:43.340 They never released what kind of ammunition it was.

02:13:45.780 But this was an antique rifle.

02:13:48.300 If this was antique ammo to boot, you know, who knows?

02:13:52.360 But there is no mystery here other than speculation and kind of nonsense.

02:13:57.840 I mean, you see this all the time in homicide cases, Megan, where sometimes the bullets go right through and it looks like they're pristine.

02:14:05.760 Sometimes they will hit a bone and shatter and stay inside.

02:14:08.700 Sometimes it's a little around, spin around, bank all over the place inside a human body.

02:14:17.260 You know, we part of our needs to go watch the autopsies on our homicides.

02:14:20.200 And it's it is you'd be amazed the things that different bullets will do.

02:14:26.060 And there we go. That's a that's a Mauser.

02:14:27.640 I believe it's a Mauser 98. That is a a rifle that was designed well over 100 years ago.

02:14:33.440 It's still that and that's a really old one, but they still make those because it's it's a simple design and it works.

02:14:39.220 But ammunition, depending on the ammunition, they design certain rounds to break apart, to shoot coyotes.

02:14:45.540 It's literally called varmint ammunition. And there's no, you know, it's not like they got in there and didn't, you know, couldn't account for the weight or the grains.

02:14:54.120 Apparently, it's all inside his body. It hit his spine.

02:14:58.120 Viva's right. He was dead instantly or or very close to it.

02:15:02.760 Thank God. But but yeah, this is the kind of stuff that the conspiracy theories.

02:15:07.940 And these are a bunch of people who who haven't haven't witnessed autopsies, haven't seen bullets pulled out of human bodies before.

02:15:17.040 And the only person who might have seen more of them than me is probably my friend.

02:15:21.940 Mark Garrett goes right there at the bottom. And do you agree with him, Mark?

02:15:25.940 Yeah, the math, as usual, is spot on. The issue of what a bullet will do. In fact, I have cross-examined, I can't tell you how many ballistics experts, and when they talk about, you know, they shoot bullets into water. They shoot bullets.

02:15:46.140 you should see how they testify as to how they test guns and how they test casings and things

02:15:54.200 of that nature. And I have used exactly what Matt has said as fodder for cross-examination,

02:16:02.400 saying, by the way, lay the foundation. Have you ever been to an autopsy? Have you seen what

02:16:07.560 bullets do? For you to say that you can try to recreate it by shooting it into a long trough

02:16:14.300 of water or something else is just complete and utter nonsense, because it's almost as if I've

02:16:20.760 actually had ballistics experts admit to me that bullets have a mind of their own. I mean,

02:16:26.060 I've actually had that statement repeated back to me on cross-examination. That doesn't mean,

02:16:34.300 however, that the defense is going to not run with that. The defense has an obligation to run

02:16:41.740 with that. The defense has an absolute duty, zealous advocacy to kind of plumb the depths of

02:16:49.980 that because God only knows what is going on here. I mean, this has not been, I think Matt would

02:16:57.960 probably admit if this were, he wouldn't admit that he's ever had this situation down in Orange

02:17:04.280 County, but he probably, if I was out with him at CrimeCon in Vegas, would admit that he has

02:17:10.200 chastised investigators for doing stuff like this before, because this is not you're not.

02:17:17.900 What do you mean doing stuff like what?

02:17:19.580 This is not a primer on a really good investigation, number one.

02:17:25.140 And I I don't want to be the armchair quarterback second guessing.

02:17:30.280 But this this once again has all the earmarks of some people in over their head, at least

02:17:38.600 initially.

02:17:39.160 there's a lot of things that were done here that I think are going to come out during this

02:17:43.580 preliminary hearing and the defense is going to bring out as to what investigators did or didn't

02:17:48.200 do. Megan, I want to hear more on that, but Viva, I want you to weigh in. Well, when I hear people

02:17:54.220 say this, you know, a 30-06 would always leave an exit wound. It's impossible, inconceivable that

02:18:00.020 it wouldn't. And then I say Martin Luther King Jr. And then you people then be like, well, I don't

02:18:04.760 believe that report either because you're believing FedSelop if you believe that that bullet actually

02:18:08.620 killed martin luther king so you're having an argument with people who basically push

02:18:14.180 unfalsifiable theories where if you say it always leaves an exit wound there's probably a few

02:18:20.200 soldiers from world war ii that can testify that a 30-06 doesn't always leave an exit wound then

02:18:25.380 you say martin luther king got shot in the face and if they believe it they say oh well that hit

02:18:28.800 his jawbone okay so a jawbone can stop it but not a spine uh or a spine well not the spinal cord but

02:18:34.240 not the spine bones and then you say well i don't believe the martin luther king got shot in the

02:18:39.260 face with the 30-06 either so therefore i stand by my it could never have been a 30-06 anybody

02:18:44.420 saying that and i'm not a gun expert i'm not an ammunitions expert by any means i was a lawyer

02:18:49.320 for 13 years my question has always been do you know the condition of the ammo if you don't know

02:18:54.920 the condition of the ammo you are not in a position to definitively say how the ideal ammo would

02:19:00.000 perform and what it would do to a human body and and i think i don't know if we all know chris

02:19:04.100 martinson he's done great work on covet he's looking into this quite a bit i had him on the

02:19:08.180 channel and i say you know hypothetically if that if that projectile is tumbling when it hits the

02:19:13.180 body who knows what it does at a lower angle it dives down and you know chris in in all honesty

02:19:19.080 said yeah i guess if it's a fouled bore if the rifle hasn't been maintained if it's old ammunition

02:19:24.620 you know it's conceivable that the round is tumbling by the time it hits charlie in the neck

02:19:28.520 and hits the spine and goes down.

02:19:30.320 It's conceivable.

02:19:31.400 We're talking about, you know, what are the odds?

02:19:33.960 Until there's evidence to support anything other than this,

02:19:37.500 it takes a great deal of audacity to write this off and say,

02:19:40.420 this is not how a bullet behaves.

02:19:41.920 When it's behaved like this in the past, Martin Luther King,

02:19:44.380 if you don't believe that, fine.

02:19:45.800 But you don't know the condition of the ammo.

02:19:48.280 You're not in any position to say definitively what the bullet would

02:19:51.240 or would not have done to a human body.

02:19:53.520 That's right.

02:19:54.060 I mean, personally, I can't get past the fact that

02:19:57.920 if you're, if I'm the defense, I can poke a lot of holes into the, this wasn't the gun that this

02:20:03.660 was the gun. I can poke holes into that. I, I, maybe I can convince a jury. This was not the

02:20:07.880 gun or they, they can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt that this was the gun. And

02:20:11.200 this was Tyler Robinson's ammo. But then I get to the written confession in the text messages

02:20:19.760 to the transfer a lover. Okay. Those sound weird. Maybe you find a jury that's like,

02:20:24.720 it doesn't sound like normal Gen Zers, like I don't buy that, but you're going to have the 1.00

02:20:29.860 metadata. You're going to have an expert that the prosecution is going to know that there are 0.99

02:20:35.040 doubts about those text messages and they are going to shore up any doubts about them coming

02:20:41.500 from anything other than Tyler Robinson's phone and Lance Twig's phone and try to convince us

02:20:47.940 that absolutely it was those two. And then on top of that, there's a note that Tyler allegedly left

02:20:53.400 for Lance underneath the keyboard. Um, that, that also, it was in advance of the shooting

02:20:58.900 saying, if you're reading this, I'm either dead or I'm facing a long prison sentence. I'm sorry,

02:21:03.060 but I had to do it. And then on top of that, the night that Tyler Robinson was arrested,

02:21:11.100 Matt, you have him speaking to his parents, allegedly saying, I just, I'm going to end it

02:21:18.420 all like allegedly confessing to the parents and saying, I'm going to end it all. And then the

02:21:23.100 parents. Here's how it was reported. Okay. At the time, um, this is from the criminal information

02:21:28.460 that basically the, the, the charging document against him. They say on the evening of September

02:21:34.540 11th, this is Thursday, the day after the murder, as law enforcement continued their investigation,

02:21:39.580 Robinson went to the Washington County Sheriff's office with his parents and a family friend who's

02:21:45.440 going to become relevant to turn himself in. His mother stated the following to cops on September

02:21:50.200 11th, the day after the shooting, she saw a photo of the shooter in the news. She thought it looked

02:21:53.940 like her son. She called her son, asked him where he was. He said homesick and that he'd also been

02:21:58.500 homesick the day before the day of the shooting. The mom expressed concern to her husband that

02:22:02.700 the suspected shooter looked like Robinson. The father agreed. First of all, that's all admissible. 0.99

02:22:07.220 All of that is admissible and will likely come in. His mother explained that over the last year or

02:22:12.460 so, Robinson had become much more political and started to lean more to the left, becoming more

02:22:16.220 pro-gay, more trans rights oriented. She said that Robinson began to date his roommate, a

02:22:21.920 biological male who was transitioning genders. This resulted in several discussions with family

02:22:26.500 members, especially between Robinson and his father, who have very different political views.

02:22:30.460 In one convo before the shooting, Robinson mentioned Charlie Kirk would be holding an 0.99

02:22:34.140 event at UVU, which Robinson said was a stupid venue. Robinson accused Kirk of spreading hate. 1.00

02:22:41.500 That's the exact term allegedly used by Robinson to the transfury lover.

02:22:45.640 Some hate can't be negotiated out.

02:22:47.660 Robinson's father reported that when his wife showed him the surveillance image of the suspected shooter in the news, he agreed it looked like their son.

02:22:53.700 So that in and of itself is evidence.

02:22:55.220 Both parents, Matt, are looking at the now as of now unidentified picture of the shooter, just the shooter.

02:23:03.760 That's all we know. 0.99

02:23:04.580 And both are like, holy shit, that's our boy. 0.99

02:23:07.480 So that that's all admissible. 0.97

02:23:08.840 and then we get to he also believed the dad that the rifle the police suspected the shooter used

02:23:16.180 matched a rifle that was given to his son as a gift as a result the father can contacted his

02:23:20.140 son and asked him to send a photo of the rifle this is him saying do you have it on you right

02:23:25.060 now because i'm seeing the cops have one that looks an awful lot like the one i gave you from

02:23:30.400 grandpa um robinson did not respond however robinson's father spoke on the phone with

02:23:36.320 Robinson. Robinson implied that he planned to take his own life. His parents were able to convince

02:23:41.520 him to meet at their home. As they discussed the situation, Robinson implied, implied he was the

02:23:47.720 shooter and stated that he could not go to jail. He just wanted to end it. When asked why he did it,

02:23:53.120 Robinson explained there's too much evil and that guy, Charlie Kirk, spreads too much hate.

02:23:59.320 They talked about Robinson turning himself in and convinced Robinson to speak with a family friend

02:24:04.440 who was a retired deputy sheriff at Robinson's father's request.

02:24:08.860 The family friend met with Robinson and his parents and convinced Robinson to turn himself

02:24:14.160 in.

02:24:14.760 The family friend spoke to police, reported telling Robinson that it would be best if

02:24:19.380 he brought all evidence with him to the sheriff's office to avoid police having to search his

02:24:23.100 parents' home.

02:24:24.040 That family friend also asked Robinson if he had any clothes that were related to what

02:24:27.860 he did.

02:24:28.760 Robinson replied that he had disposed of the clothes in different areas.

02:24:32.660 So they don't use the word confession in here, Matt, but my God, that's a lot of circumstantial

02:24:39.840 evidence.

02:24:40.160 I don't know how you describe that, but that's a lot of very, very good evidence for the

02:24:44.600 prosecution that the family knew it was him.

02:24:47.380 He didn't deny it. 0.93

02:24:48.460 He talked about wanting to kill himself.

02:24:50.280 He didn't say, what evidence would I have when turning myself in?

02:24:53.720 I didn't do it, friend of family, former deputy sheriff.

02:24:57.560 In fact, instead, he said, I got rid of it.

02:24:59.560 this guy and the two parents can absolutely be called. They're not on the witness list for

02:25:04.640 preliminary hearing, but they're coming to trial to show this jury he confessed or didn't deny

02:25:12.860 and came right up close to a confession to virtually everyone. Well, every murder case

02:25:19.060 is like a collage, Megan. Every murder trial, it's a bunch, it's as many different pieces as

02:25:25.720 you can put together as a prosecutor and then having the jury take a step back and consider

02:25:31.900 every piece of evidence in light of everything else. And you're absolutely right. I know Mark

02:25:37.720 is listening to that. Oftentimes, the best evidence that you have as a homicide prosecutor

02:25:45.000 is statements from the defendant to friends, to family. Now we have the whole world of text

02:25:50.560 messages. And when you add it all up on this, you're absolutely right, Megan. This is overwhelming.

02:25:56.380 I think, and I'm interested in Mark's thoughts on this and Viva's too, this case really, in my view,

02:26:04.780 is all about the penalty phase. It's important to remember that in Utah, it's just like California,

02:26:10.400 every trial like this is bifurcated. You have the guilt phase where all this evidence is going to

02:26:14.640 be presented. And then you have the penalty phase where the jury is going to be tasked with

02:26:19.060 considering the aggravating versus mitigating factors and one of the challenges for really

02:26:23.860 good defense lawyers like mark garagos in the guilt phase is how much of your credibility you

02:26:29.280 want to risk by arguing fanciful conspiracy theories or all that because when a jury goes

02:26:35.760 through the evidence and you've stood up and if you lean too hard into kind of the some of the

02:26:40.920 crazy stuff you you tend to blow a lot of credibility in in the penalty phase when it

02:26:46.900 really matters and in utah they have an actual death penalty unlike california where it's it's

02:26:52.460 basically symbolic or other states um utah and this guy they go to the 10th circuit court of

02:26:58.200 appeal i think mark if i'm not mistaken 10th circuit which is not the ninth circuit um

02:27:03.020 this guy he is actually facing the death penalty on this and and i think that that's one of the

02:27:09.180 interesting things about this tactically um because if you go too hard on nonsense um that

02:27:16.580 jury may not believe you when you get up and you argue mitigating factors um you know mental

02:27:22.540 illness love for this other guy whatever's going on in his head the jury's going to get to consider

02:27:27.260 that um whether that carries the day or not that's really the way i see this whole case um is this

02:27:33.500 are they gonna are they gonna vote death or not i think that's the ultimate question mark how

02:27:38.760 how would you see it if you if you're looking at the discord messages the text messages again

02:27:43.460 alleged the alleged letter left under the keyboard in advance the alleged conversations with tyler

02:27:49.380 robinson and his parents the alleged conversations between tyler robinson and this family friend who's

02:27:54.200 a retired former sheriff um how how hard do you go on this is not the guy this is why um as much

02:28:04.320 as I love him. I hated going up against Matt because he understood the kinds of tactical

02:28:11.920 decisions. One of the, let me give you just a little bit. One of the things that adages is

02:28:20.940 it's a rare case for the defense that gets better after the prosecution rests, which means you don't

02:28:28.380 want to ever call your client. The first cousin of that is the worst thing that you can, one of

02:28:35.480 the reasons you don't want to call your client is because the jury's focus goes immediately to

02:28:40.920 what did the client say? It doesn't matter what Matt put on, it's what does the client say? That

02:28:47.300 is what they're laser focused on. If you don't put the client on, then you've got to deal with

02:28:52.040 the text messages, all of the items that lead up to and that are basically portrayed by the

02:29:00.400 prosecution as the client's statements. If you can deal with that, if there's a way to thread

02:29:06.260 that needle and say, well, he was implication or he thought he had a doppelganger, whatever that

02:29:11.980 might be, the most devastating piece of evidence that you're going to have to deal with in this

02:29:16.880 case is what you and Matt both referred to, which is the close family relatives. Now, I will say

02:29:24.240 with a caveat that in Luigi's case, for instance, the parents have come out and publicly said what

02:29:31.680 law enforcement is saying, we said, the parents, we being Luigi's parents, is false. We never said

02:29:38.940 that. I haven't seen that here in this case. But if you've got the parents testifying against their

02:29:46.120 son, that is about as heavy a lift as a defense lawyer as you're ever going to have. And to Matt's

02:29:52.900 point, you do not, absolutely do not want to squander whatever goodwill, whatever credibility

02:30:00.360 or authenticity you have with the jury, trying to run away from that, and then have to stand up in

02:30:06.400 the penalty phase and say, oh, by the way, just kidding in that guilt phase, you should, he did

02:30:12.960 have remorse. He wanted to kill himself, blah, blah, blah. You got to believe that. I was just

02:30:18.480 joking before. That never plays out. That never ends well. Oh, that's so tricky. Go ahead, Viva.

02:30:24.580 No, I was going to say that people don't see the people who are saying Tyler Robinson's innocent or

02:30:29.620 there's a lack of evidence don't seem to be appreciating what's out there. And it's not just

02:30:34.500 the parents, the text messages, the video of him running across the roof and jumping off.

02:30:39.540 The day of, I remember watching live streams where immediately after the shot occurred, the person with the camera panned over to the area where they thought the shot came from.

02:30:47.780 Not to say he's dead to rights. He'll have a trial.

02:30:50.860 If it comes out at trial that the text messages were falsified or altered, that the Discord chat was manufactured, then you can say, well, now I question everything and anything in this case by way of the other evidence.

02:31:04.340 His parents have not come out and said, he's innocent. Why are you prosecuting my boy?

02:31:09.540 I mean, that is what you think a parent would say if the reports of them turning their son in or identify the son were false.

02:31:16.780 But, you know, barring something outrageous during the trial, like it comes up that the feds somehow concocted the text messages to frame a guilty man.

02:31:25.920 You know, this trial is going to go the exact way we all think it's going to go.

02:31:29.520 And then the only question is going to be, are you going to get one individual out there who says not necessarily, I believe Israel did it with an exploding lapel mic, but it could have been someone else.

02:31:38.620 that i'm not comfortable sending tyler uh to a death penalty or to jail for life

02:31:42.520 so well said that is very very good framing there the you know we we haven't addressed

02:31:50.780 all of the messages online from what i'm calling trans tifa you know like there there were messages

02:31:59.420 from people online saying something terrible is going to happen to charlie kirk on september 10th

02:32:04.520 wait until you see. And then after he was killed, the equivalent of told you multiple.

02:32:11.520 We've never heard a follow up from the FBI on that, Matt. They've never. I asked Kash Patel

02:32:17.680 about that myself and said it was under investigation. And then we never heard

02:32:22.620 anything. And that I just feel like that has got to be answered in some way, shape or form. Like

02:32:27.100 that was widespread. Most people will remember that as I say it. So what how do you handle

02:32:34.480 that as a prosecutor? Well, number one, it is. It's disturbing. And some of that stuff that came

02:32:40.240 out right at the very beginning. And it is odd. And in the way of a caveat, you know, good for

02:32:46.620 Lance Twiggs for cooperating. He doesn't appear to have been a part of any of that. So good for

02:32:53.100 Lance Twiggs. OK, that said, this is something that you do encounter as a prosecutor. You'll

02:32:58.300 have one defendant sitting there. This is like my Daniel Wozniak case, for example,

02:33:01.660 where this guy murdered his his neighbor, his war hero neighbor to get at his combat pay

02:33:08.960 and then murdered a young woman named Julie Kibuishi in the dead guy's apartment because

02:33:15.800 he murdered him someplace else in order to frame the guy he'd already murdered so that everybody

02:33:21.020 will be chasing after him. It was absolutely diabolical. But that was really the claim of

02:33:25.780 the defense was that um daniel wasniak's fiancee rachel buffett had to have been involved she had

02:33:31.940 to know she had to know and as a prosecutor eventually that was a death penalty case you

02:33:36.160 stand up and you go okay great let's say um everything he just said is right let's say she

02:33:41.700 was up to her eyeballs and there wasn't evidence supporting that but let's say she was up to her

02:33:45.740 eyeballs in it all that means is she should be sitting at council table right next to him

02:33:49.620 that doesn't lessen his guilt or his involvement in any way and all of those people could have

02:33:55.400 been involved they could have been helping there's no evidence to support that right now

02:33:59.000 there's certainly evidence that i'm that came out that indicates that people knew about it

02:34:04.200 maybe he was bragging about it maybe he was telling people ahead of time but great so we

02:34:08.260 could line up 25 chairs next to his it doesn't lessen his individual guilt and that's the way

02:34:14.840 you handle it it's it's like awesome conspiracy theories run amok super let's take all of that

02:34:21.680 let's let's say every bit of it is true how does that lessen his moral culpability or his legal

02:34:26.540 culpability for what the evidence shows he did that's how you deal with it and and i i know you've

02:34:33.180 you've done some coverage on this too your thoughts on it sorry i was just looking up online because

02:34:38.660 it is it's to the point where like i'm questioning my own sanity and my own memory i remember at the

02:34:44.760 time there were posts that said something big is going to happen at utah pay attention and you go

02:34:50.860 to grok now and you ask that question and it gives you a wishy-washy answer and what i put

02:34:56.840 that question out there publicly to the fbi as well not that they listen to me or follow me but

02:35:00.760 like if it didn't happen then the public memory should be corrected but it happened and the

02:35:07.280 question is it happened it happened and now and the question is this what's going on with that

02:35:12.580 people say well they can't comment on an ongoing investigation to which i say hogwash you don't

02:35:17.500 wait for every individual involved in a scheme to be convicted before you investigate others

02:35:21.240 involvement in that scheme. I was just going to say what a cop out to say, you know, it's an

02:35:26.880 ongoing investigation, because if you don't think that the defense has already hired a way back

02:35:33.860 machine, what we call the way back machine has preserved a way, but through subpoenas to get

02:35:41.160 the pre-existing talk about something big is going to happen. It would be malpractice per se,

02:35:48.980 ineffective assistance for the fence not to show that. And by the way, if you can show that,

02:35:55.240 and if you can show also to your point that the fact that there's been some kind of concerted

02:36:02.960 effort somewhere to erase those things. Boy, doesn't that play right into the idea that if

02:36:11.200 you can't trust what you what you saw with your own eyes, how are you now going to trust what

02:36:16.800 the prosecution is presenting to you and telling you to just believe kind of unfailingly in terms

02:36:23.760 of text messages or anything else? It's a version of garbage in, garbage out. 1.00

02:36:28.560 to to that point i just want to say that the cross-examination the bit of it we saw of her 0.99

02:36:34.220 with officer bagley talking about how there were no mags there was no drone to patrol the sky and

02:36:40.760 there was no one on the roof i mean i do think she's also laying the foundation for when charlie

02:36:45.720 security team takes the stand if not at the preliminary hearing at the trial to say this

02:36:52.060 these guys were utter failures and you can't believe a one word they say or this is not

02:36:57.880 kelly's opinion this is you know that she right that she's going to get up there and say like

02:37:02.780 they're they have a reason to to mislead because they blame themselves and they should that's what

02:37:09.640 she's going to say um i do want to refresh the audience with the following this is just a piece

02:37:14.920 of what we know on the about the online communications around charlie's death an

02:37:18.780 online friend of Lance twigs, the, the furry boyfriend, uh, who goes by Sherbum 75 wrote

02:37:26.640 after Charlie was killed. Charlie Kirk deserved that shit. Let it die. Let it die. Uh, and then 1.00

02:37:32.040 we fucking did it. All right. So that is a friend of Lance twigs, the transfery lover of Charlie 0.99

02:37:39.120 Kirk, forgive me of Tyler Robinson saying we fucking did it. We fucking did it. Another account, 0.99

02:37:46.340 a person who goes by Osamu bin Tezuka, five days before the shooting, September 5th. You guys,

02:37:53.240 I have something big, in all caps, coming soon. Just be sure to check the news. You will know it

02:37:59.820 when you see it. Emoji giving a wink. Then on Wednesday at 4.52 p.m. after the murder,

02:38:06.180 well, that's that. Another chud bites the dust. An ex-account called Mushy. The ex-handle is 0.99

02:38:12.620 tally hal album it has since been deleted but the first kirk tweet was september 3rd seven days

02:38:19.980 before the murder it'd be funny if someone like charlie kirk got shot on september 10th laughing

02:38:26.140 my ass off followed up by another one on september 11th did it so okay you know you can dismiss this

02:38:35.720 But it's very strange that there's so many predicting doom and gloom, then claiming credit 0.91

02:38:43.960 for it.

02:38:44.660 And at least one of them is directly connected to the lover of the accused shooter.

02:38:52.500 And, you know, back to the theory of the text messages are not some nefarious third party

02:39:00.220 or the FBI making up fake text exchange confessions.

02:39:04.580 It's actually two co-conspirators to take the credit away from Lance Twiggs, Matt, and reevaluate the thinking as maybe Lance Twiggs was a co-conspirator and is just saving his own ass in talking with and dealing with police now because he was in on it.

02:39:23.760 Some of the people in this discord group were in on it, knew it was going to happen, celebrated it.

02:39:29.600 It's possible they knew George Zinn, the 72 or three year old guy who said he did it and distracted the cops.

02:39:36.360 Like, we don't know how wide this goes, but it does disturb me.

02:39:40.420 I'm not really into I as the audience knows, I got my criticisms of Israel.

02:39:44.600 And I know that Charlie was under a lot of pressure from his Jewish donors at Turning Point because he told me that.

02:39:50.800 And it's written down in his own text messages.

02:39:53.760 But I am much more focused on this trans Tifa group group when it comes to this crime, because I do believe that Tyler Robinson pulled the trigger.

02:40:02.260 And my only real question is who else, if anyone, knew about it and said nothing?

02:40:07.880 Who wants to take that?

02:40:09.140 Well, Lance Twiggs, he would be a horrible criminal if he was a horrible co-conspirator on this, because remember, the note underneath the keyboard came from him.

02:40:20.720 He didn't follow Tyler Robinson's instructions to delete the tax messages, and he could have done all that and didn't.

02:40:29.800 So that's where I'm coming from on that.

02:40:32.800 And like Mark, and I'm sure Viva, too, we've seen so many cases where somebody who is involved in something like this will destroy evidence.

02:40:39.280 And even if they're not involved ahead of time, as accessories after the fact, especially for people that they're in love with or that they have some sort of romantic bond, you see that all the time, case after case after case.

02:40:50.480 the girlfriend who's trying to cover for the guy or the parent burying the body i mean you see that

02:40:54.720 so many times that um i mean it seems like lance twigs had the opportunity to do it that would be

02:41:00.120 my response that's somebody that that even given my background that i i could defend any case like

02:41:05.700 this the furry world megan and i know mark has seen this i don't know if uh if he has ever dealt

02:41:11.000 with before it is one of the most bizarre communities um i i there were a couple of

02:41:16.940 really vicious murder cases in Orange County that we dealt with out of the furry community.

02:41:21.900 And it's it's it's a whole sideshow of of weirdness. But I think. But but but but the 0.93

02:41:29.660 weird thing about I mean, the tricky thing about Lance Twigs being a furry is normally be the

02:41:35.400 defense attorney who would raise that like you're into the furry community, aren't you, Mr. Twigs?

02:41:39.340 Like, that's your thing. It's not enough to be a so-called transgender, but you also think you're 0.94

02:41:43.800 this whatever kind of animal, half human, whatever floats your boat. But how does that 0.97

02:41:50.100 help them, Mark, to do that to Lance Twiggs? Because Tyler Robinson was his lover. I mean,

02:41:58.100 just as weird as Lance Twiggs in, it all inures to Tyler Robinson, too. That's what he was into.

02:42:03.880 So I have no special knowledge or anything else that's being reported. But based on what's being

02:42:12.160 reported if i would bet you a couple of donuts that the defense has explored the idea that he

02:42:22.380 was lured into this that they have to as a theory pursue whether or not tyler robinson was used

02:42:32.500 And if he was used or set up and you have enough to at least credibly pursue it with an investigation, if there are people who are connected to Lance Twiggs who are predicting things.

02:42:49.340 And if this is a fairly recent phenomena where Tyler Robinson is drawn into this world or drawn into the relationship, that is not something that is unheard of or extremely rare when it comes to cases where somebody ends up kind of doing somebody else's dirty work.

02:43:12.060 I would venture to say that the defense is or has explored this, and we will see either in this preliminary hearing or in trial whether they think there's any traction to it.

02:43:24.280 But certainly the last thing you'd want to do is have him get convicted and get the death penalty and have ignored this whole area of investigation, because that'll buy you an IAC and a 2255 petition in the 10th Circuit faster than you can, say, hide the gun.

02:43:43.940 Can I just jump on that real quick, Megan?

02:43:45.760 Infective assistance of counsel.

02:43:46.960 What's interesting about that point, I think Mark's exactly right.

02:43:49.800 One of the factors the jury is going to be asked to consider is, was the person under the substantial domination of another at the time they committed the murder?

02:43:58.280 And I hadn't even thought about that angle until Mark was just saying it.

02:44:01.740 But they may really be able to lean into that where a conspiracy situation might really help the defense, not in the guilt phase, but in the penalty phase.

02:44:10.660 Because if he is lured into this or there's somebody that's – there's some guru that they're listening to or whatever the defense can find, that could help them theoretically.

02:44:19.800 in the penalty phase on this. And Mark's right. They got to explore it no matter what,

02:44:24.360 or that IAC claim is going to land on their heads in the law process.

02:44:28.840 To Matt's point, they have already, they are developing mitigation. One of the things you

02:44:36.800 have to do as a capital defense lawyer is you have to both walk and chew gum at the same time.

02:44:43.300 You're defending the guilt phase, but you're also robustly developing mitigation.

02:44:49.140 If this is viable, you're starting it with mitigation, meaning were you under the influence of some other person? Is there some kind of mental coercion or something along those lines? If it turns out that somebody makes the game time decision that, hey, this actually could go towards guilt, so be it.

02:45:11.340 But right now, I would be shocked if they weren't investigating this.

02:45:16.920 And you may see this during the preliminary hearing or at least kind of nibbling around the edges.

02:45:23.660 One thing I think is calling Lance Twiggs Luna.

02:45:29.280 Yeah, the defense is doing that.

02:45:31.220 So they're not shying away from that.

02:45:33.280 Viva, quick last word.

02:45:34.400 Two things.

02:45:35.780 We need to find out who radicalized Tyler Robinson online and whether or not there are other players involved.

02:45:40.920 and whether or not there might have been other elements involved.

02:45:44.380 But when Tyler messages his boyfriend and says,

02:45:47.760 remember when I was etching the bullets?

02:45:49.560 I mean, if I'm the defense, it's like, oh, why are you etching the bullets?

02:45:52.600 And was Lance enticing him to etch these bullets?

02:45:56.100 And did they have a plan that Lance lured him in?

02:45:58.200 That's what you do as a defense.

02:45:59.380 But bottom line, for a conspiracy,

02:46:00.840 what the hell did Lance Twiggs think he was etching death threats

02:46:03.740 into bullets for a week before the assassination?

02:46:06.960 Yeah, that's not something we all sit around with our partners

02:46:09.520 and see every day?

02:46:11.240 It's a good question, one of many

02:46:13.460 that we're going to be exploring over the following week.

02:46:15.400 Thank you all for tuning in.

02:46:16.420 Thank you to my panel for being here.

02:46:18.380 And we will see you all again tomorrow.

02:46:21.720 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

02:46:23.640 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - July 06, 2026

Explosive Moments From Tyler Robinson Hearing, and Trump's FIFA Controversy, with Geragos, Murphy, Aronberg, Merchant, Frei, and Sage Steele ｜ Ep. 1353

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