The Megyn Kelly Show - Explosive New Casey Anthony Allegations, and Importance of Defense Attorneys, with Jose Baez and Vinnie Politan

00:00:00.420 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.640 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.140 Casey Anthony, the mother acquitted of killing her own daughter in 2011 in a trial that made international headlines,

00:00:22.940 is now making a series of new claims against her family as she continues to try to convince the world she is innocent.

00:00:32.200 Now her father, George, is reportedly considering taking legal action against her.

00:00:37.200 In just a bit, I will be joined by Casey's former lawyer, star trial lawyer Jose Baez,

00:00:43.980 who is the man who won that acquittal for her, joins us for a wide-ranging conversation.

00:00:49.720 When you hear the cases Jose has represented folks in, his legal career is absolutely stunning.

00:00:55.120 He was on the Harvey Weinstein case for a while. In fact, he was co-partners.

00:00:58.440 Remember that Harvard dean who got basically drummed out of his position at Harvard

00:01:04.120 because he spent some time representing Weinstein? It was so unfair. It was ridiculous.

00:01:08.720 Hello, what do you think criminal defense attorneys do? They don't just hang out with the angels.

00:01:13.340 Anyway, Jose and that guy were partners on the Harvey case.

00:01:16.420 He represented Aaron Hernandez, the football player who was accused of killing a bunch of people.

00:01:22.940 I mean, we're going to go through it all. Jose's fascinating.

00:01:25.180 And we will get to Casey Anthony with him as well.

00:01:27.500 But we begin today with Vinny Palatin. He's the lead anchor of Court TV.

00:01:32.740 He covered the trial of Casey Anthony when it happened over a decade ago.

00:01:37.240 Vinny, thank you so much for being here.

00:01:39.180 Great to see you, Megan. Can we really call Casey Anthony a mother, though?

00:01:42.560 Should we call her a mother?

00:01:43.920 You're so right. I almost I stumbled on it. You know, it's like, what is a mother?

00:01:48.180 Certainly not what she is. You know, if you consider a mother, somebody just gives birth to a child.

00:01:53.120 But no, there's much more in the term than that.

00:01:55.840 OK, but wait, let me pause the Casey Anthony discussion for just one second,

00:01:59.320 because I got to ask you as a fellow lawyer about this Sam Bankman Freed speaking to everybody.

00:02:05.060 He's basically on the top of the Empire State Building talking to anybody who wants to about his alleged crimes.

00:02:12.000 This guy's looking at a very real possibility of getting charged and going to prison.

00:02:15.560 And yet he appears at some summit yesterday with some anchor from CNBC, answers all sorts of questions.

00:02:22.380 This morning, he's on with George Stephanopoulos, answers all sorts of questions and made all sorts of admissions.

00:02:27.840 I'm going to give you a flavor. We'll spend a minute on that before we get to Casey.

00:02:30.760 Here he is with Stephanopoulos this morning.

00:02:33.760 Carolyn Ellison says you knew that FTX funds were being funneled to Alameda. Did you know that?

00:02:40.440 I knew that there is an open margin position there and that that involved.

00:02:43.300 I know, but that's not what I'm asking.

00:02:45.100 I didn't know that there was something beyond a large, I believe, over collateralized margin position on FTX.

00:02:55.980 It was only in the last month that I put together the magnitudes of everything.

00:03:00.340 So if she's in court and you're in court and she's under oath and you're under oath and you're asked,

00:03:06.120 did you know that these funds were being funneled to Alameda? What is your answer?

00:03:16.240 I did not know that there is any improper use of customer funds.

00:03:21.200 It says that the digital assets may not be loaned to FTX trading. They can't be loaned out.

00:03:26.040 There existed a borrowed lending facility on FTX. And I think that's probably covered, I don't remember exactly where, but somewhere else in the terms of service.

00:03:42.820 I wasn't spending any time or effort trying to manage risk on FTX.

00:03:48.480 Trying, like, and that, that obviously, that's a stunning admission.

00:03:52.180 What?

00:03:52.500 That's a pretty stunning admission.

00:03:54.480 Yeah. I mean, I don't know what to say. Like, what happened, happened.

00:03:58.480 Are you worried about going to jail?

00:03:59.480 There are a lot of things that are worrying me right now.

00:04:07.640 I'll bet.

00:04:09.620 Yeah.

00:04:10.020 He must have, he must have been living in this fantasy world of his so long that he is so detached from reality and life and consequences.

00:04:19.700 I mean, this is unreal. It's absolutely unreal.

00:04:22.720 Let's just hope that there's a true investigation and that people will actually take a look at him and treat him like anyone else will be treated,

00:04:30.720 despite the fact that he, I guess, has access to lots of money and has given lots of money to many influential people.

00:04:37.860 Right. Which he admits now was all part of a scam just to woo people into supporting his company, that none of that was real.

00:04:45.580 He was trying to buy their, their buy-in to his company so that they wouldn't criticize him, presumably when the chips came tumbling down.

00:04:52.820 He's been accused of basically fraud, of taking his crypto exchange, FTX, and taking investors' money and using it to cover losses on his hedge fund called Alameda,

00:05:04.060 which was run by his girlfriend, who's about four years old from the pictures.

00:05:07.860 And that's a no-no. That's a legal no-no. You're not allowed to take funds for the one exchange and use it to cover losses on another company.

00:05:15.320 And that's where he was sort of trying to hedge his bets on Stephanopoulos' questions.

00:05:19.740 Like, I never use money improperly. It's kind of where he landed.

00:05:23.480 And then he admitted, I never, I never managed risk at all, at all.

00:05:28.440 The lack of sophistication with this guy for someone who had, who obviously is bright to a certain extent,

00:05:37.680 but there's got to be like something that blocks his brain to understand that there are consequences for what you're doing.

00:05:43.300 The legal ramifications, I mean, everything that he is doing is the opposite of what anyone with any level of common sense would do in his position,

00:05:54.620 knowing what is at stake, which is your life and your liberty, your freedom, right?

00:06:00.440 Your ability to do what you want to do when you want to do it.

00:06:03.440 You could end up in a prison cell.

00:06:04.680 I mean, this is unreal what is taking place, but I guess that's how he got to where he is.

00:06:10.480 I mean, it's that mentality and it's that, that haircut.

00:06:14.100 You just put the two together and he is what he is.

00:06:16.580 It's so dumb though.

00:06:17.840 Like there have been others with this kind of hubris.

00:06:19.780 I'm thinking of Alec Baldwin who just think, I know better.

00:06:22.980 I know better.

00:06:24.160 Trust me.

00:06:24.680 You get me in front of the camera.

00:06:26.040 I can sell my story.

00:06:27.820 This, this guy could be going to prison for decades.

00:06:30.540 He needs to keep his mouth shut.

00:06:31.860 And he was asked by the CNBC moderator, what are your lawyers feel about you being here?

00:06:36.560 And he was like, yeah, they're totally against it.

00:06:38.140 You know, but I don't see much good in me hiding and pretending that the world is not out there.

00:06:43.380 No, that's not the point.

00:06:44.620 It's not, that's not the point at all.

00:06:46.160 It's like, don't make any more admissions.

00:06:47.760 Don't make it any worse for yourself than it already is.

00:06:51.600 So, and that's what he's doing.

00:06:53.640 And I mean, good in a way, because if he defrauded a bunch of investors, we want to see this guy

00:06:57.680 held to account.

00:06:58.600 But I will say the one thing, as I just mentioned, I appreciated hearing was him just calling

00:07:03.020 a fraud on all this, like, you know, this social justice giving that these companies

00:07:08.820 do and they're the attempt to manipulate people into thinking they're good people.

00:07:12.900 Those are the ones that need to have red flags on them.

00:07:15.320 Those companies who are engaged in that are doing it for a reason.

00:07:18.560 And here he was talking about that yesterday.

00:07:21.680 It's SOT 6.

00:07:22.360 There's a bunch of bullshit that regulated companies do to try and look good.

00:07:31.620 And these are things that everyone who does them basically knows they're kind of dumb that

00:07:39.660 these are not things that are making large impact on the world.

00:07:42.940 I mean, he gives it up right there, Vinny.

00:07:47.160 It's like when these companies are doing this, there's even more reason to look into them

00:07:51.180 because they're trying to buy your willingness to look the other way.

00:07:56.500 Absolutely.

00:07:57.120 Look at this.

00:07:57.660 We're really nice.

00:07:58.600 We do all these great things over here.

00:07:59.940 But whatever you do, don't look over in the other direction.

00:08:02.260 I mean, that's what's going on.

00:08:04.800 We see it.

00:08:05.520 We're living it.

00:08:06.600 We'll see if anything changes.

00:08:08.340 But I don't know.

00:08:10.620 I don't know if things are going to change because they invest enough time and effort

00:08:14.880 in that shiny object to make to divert everyone's attention that all of a sudden they get they

00:08:21.020 get a pass.

00:08:22.060 And maybe this is the case, though.

00:08:24.660 Maybe this is the case with the spotlight on it that maybe starts to pull back on what's

00:08:29.360 really happening.

00:08:30.160 And let's just hope so.

00:08:31.880 And and Megan, please don't speak so loudly in giving advice to alleged criminals.

00:08:37.220 We want them prosecuted.

00:08:39.320 We want them locked up.

00:08:40.540 We want them to pay a price.

00:08:42.280 I always have to be careful on court TV because sometimes I start doing that and I'm like,

00:08:46.120 well, hopefully they're not listening tonight.

00:08:48.260 Right.

00:08:48.540 Yeah, exactly.

00:08:49.180 We actually talk all you want because it's fascinating for us as journalists.

00:08:52.680 And I don't really care whether he goes to prison or not.

00:08:55.100 You know, it's like, great.

00:08:56.120 If you did it, I'd love to see you go away.

00:08:57.800 You heard a lot of people from what I read in the papers.

00:08:59.640 Now it's actually kind of interesting to hear people like Jim Cramer.

00:09:02.500 He was on CNBC this morning like, oh, he's not a legend.

00:09:05.900 He's a fraudster.

00:09:06.640 I'm just going to call it.

00:09:07.800 I mean, well, he's featured in an ad for the guy's company saying, like, they're amazing.

00:09:12.420 All these people who helped build him up are now like, oh, you know, he's horrible.

00:09:16.260 Well, why didn't you look into it more before you endorsed him?

00:09:18.760 OK, let's switch gears.

00:09:20.540 So the biggest story right now in terms of legal cases in the country is not this guy,

00:09:25.600 Sam Bankman, Fried or FTX.

00:09:27.080 It's Casey Anthony, this case from 10 plus years ago.

00:09:31.820 And she's finally speaking on camera with her alleged story.

00:09:38.240 She's never done that before.

00:09:40.080 She's I think that she may have said some things here or there on print in print.

00:09:44.400 She has never gone on camera and told her story.

00:09:46.840 She finally chose to do it.

00:09:48.560 And though I've now watched the documentary, it's quote unquote documentary.

00:09:53.400 That's a very loose term for what we saw.

00:09:56.100 It's the rebuilding of Casey.

00:09:57.620 Anthony is a better title rehabilitation of the filmmaker clearly believes her and is

00:10:03.580 trying to paint a very sympathetic picture of her as this abused woman.

00:10:08.160 The villain is George Casey.

00:10:10.860 Anthony's father, according to this film, who allegedly sexually abused Casey Anthony from

00:10:17.140 eight years old to 12 year old.

00:10:19.520 And that and then at that point, her brother got in on the act, Lee Anthony, and suddenly

00:10:25.000 abused her from 12 years old to 15 years old.

00:10:27.800 And the mother may or may not have known.

00:10:29.780 And poor little Casey Anthony, who you and I believe killed her daughter, Kaylee, was just

00:10:35.840 this innocent victim of all these terrible men in her family.

00:10:38.820 And then when the gut when the dad, George, killed her child later, Kaylee, she just went

00:10:45.400 along with it because abuse.

00:10:47.240 You know, she's an abuse victim.

00:10:48.680 This is so insulting to real abuse victims everywhere who, notwithstanding the horrific nature of abuse,

00:10:54.780 would have zero problem coming forward and saying the person who abused me just killed

00:10:59.560 my child.

00:11:00.160 Right.

00:11:00.540 Like the whole thing is so nonsensical.

00:11:03.500 So what was your biggest takeaway in watching the three hour piece that's airing on Peacock,

00:11:08.220 which is an NBC offshoot?

00:11:09.300 Yeah, well, my takeaway, I took notes.

00:11:12.140 I have like so many notes from this thing as I was binge watching it in the middle of

00:11:15.600 the night.

00:11:16.520 But for me, it's the fact that this is the first time she's telling her story because

00:11:21.880 you watch this series.

00:11:23.060 She's sitting down with her investigator who never heard the story.

00:11:28.480 Some of her attorneys, not Jose Baez because he wasn't interviewed in this, but her other

00:11:32.140 attorney saying, I didn't want to, I didn't want to ask her what really happened.

00:11:36.800 So are you telling me you're facing the death penalty, the death penalty, and you are factually

00:11:44.180 innocent and you know who committed the murder and you don't tell your defense team what actually

00:11:51.400 happened, but you wait until 11 years after the trial to tell a producer from Peacock what

00:11:58.240 really happened?

00:11:59.660 Come on.

00:12:00.720 That to me, the premise of everything is ridiculous.

00:12:03.740 It's utterly ridiculous.

00:12:05.080 I'm facing the death penalty, but I'm so afraid of my father that I'm just going to keep my

00:12:09.740 mouth shut and let Jose Baez get his defense elsewhere because Jose Baez, and you're going

00:12:15.760 to speak to him.

00:12:16.400 I'm glad you're going to speak to him.

00:12:17.640 His opening statement is different than what Casey Anthony says happened.

00:12:20.920 Yes.

00:12:21.160 Okay.

00:12:21.620 There's like one little kernel that's sort of similar, but it's completely different.

00:12:26.040 It's completely different.

00:12:27.760 And I know Jose Baez is not going to make it up out of thin air, right?

00:12:31.600 He has to base it on something.

00:12:33.040 So he's either basing it on other facts, not given to him by anyone else, or Casey Anthony's

00:12:38.380 another one of her lies about what happened.

00:12:41.600 So either way, to me, that's the shock that you are facing the death penalty.

00:12:46.620 You say you're 100% innocent, you know who did it, and you don't tell your investigator,

00:12:53.300 your mitigation team, or your defense lawyers what really happened.

00:12:58.960 It's ridiculous.

00:12:59.440 This is a good point, especially because she did accuse the father of sexual abuse in connection

00:13:06.500 with at the time of the trial.

00:13:08.380 She didn't take the stand and do it.

00:13:10.000 But Jose said that in his opening statement, and the dad denied it, and he really never made

00:13:17.440 anything of it.

00:13:18.200 You know, it was one of those things he just threw out there so the jury would hear it.

00:13:21.160 And in Jose's opening, he argued that the baby drowned, that little Kaylee drowned in

00:13:27.300 the swimming pool, that it was an accident.

00:13:30.440 And so now she's telling a very different story.

00:13:34.680 And you're right, there's a pretty wide delta between what her lawyer said at trial and what

00:13:39.360 she said in this, quote unquote, documentary.

00:13:42.300 Here's a sample of what she is now saying happened, Satwan.

00:13:46.280 And I was awoken by him shaking me, her dad, and asking me where Kaylee was.

00:13:55.160 And I immediately start looking around the house.

00:13:57.620 By the time I came back around from the left side of the house, I came back around towards

00:14:02.380 the front where she's standing there with her.

00:14:07.660 She's soaking wet.

00:14:16.280 I can see him standing there with her in his arms and hand her to me and telling me that

00:14:28.580 it's my fault.

00:14:30.120 What did she feel like?

00:14:32.660 She was heavy.

00:14:34.080 She was cold.

00:14:35.760 He takes her from me and he immediately softens his tone and tells me it's going to be okay.

00:14:42.380 He took her from me and he walked away.

00:14:44.340 I know he went back in through the screen doors and he went back into the house.

00:14:51.460 I don't know where she went.

00:14:54.160 I don't know what he did.

00:14:58.160 I just want her back.

00:15:02.100 Oh, my God.

00:15:03.680 Yes.

00:15:04.960 The fake crying.

00:15:05.940 And the other thing she says is that for like, you know, the 31 days that we always

00:15:13.120 talk about where Kaylee's missing, she does nothing well.

00:15:16.380 She's for 31 days.

00:15:17.480 She's like meeting George in all these secret places and he's telling her what to do and

00:15:21.060 how to act.

00:15:21.880 And it's it's it's it's absolutely bizarro world.

00:15:26.060 But here's the thing that I want people to do when they watch it, if they watch it, because

00:15:29.820 I kind of picked up on this.

00:15:31.060 There's a little tick that she has that you can tell when she's lying.

00:15:35.180 Her lips move.

00:15:38.460 So if you're watching this docuseries and you see her lips moving, that is an indication

00:15:44.120 that is pretty likely that Casey Anthony is lying at that moment.

00:15:49.180 You have to be sophisticated to really catch it.

00:15:51.420 But if you pay very close attention, you're 100 percent right.

00:15:54.740 And as for the claim made by Jose that the child drowned, it was an accidental drowning.

00:16:01.040 And, you know, this is basically nothing more than an accident.

00:16:05.160 Here's what she says in response to that.

00:16:07.340 And again, Jose is coming on, but he did not participate in this documentary.

00:16:10.520 Here it is, Sot2.

00:16:12.660 Too many scenarios of what could have happened, but are drowning in the pool is not one.

00:16:17.760 It's impossible.

00:16:19.180 In most scenarios, it would be plausible.

00:16:24.160 Not in this one.

00:16:25.640 The latter wasn't on the pool.

00:16:27.140 It's the only way in or out for her or for me.

00:16:30.780 So why let Jose Bias and your defense team make that argument again and again?

00:16:35.780 My mom was the first one that floated the theory that she could have drowned in the pool

00:16:38.860 and he went with what my mom said.

00:16:40.660 He had to explain something.

00:16:44.160 Can't just tell the jury she doesn't know.

00:16:46.420 So what was your thought on why she was wet?

00:16:50.560 Something I still can't piece together.

00:16:53.840 I wasn't the only one home.

00:16:57.600 I'm not outright accusing him of murder, but it wasn't an accident in the pool.

00:17:01.720 And by the way, now she's also she intimates in the video that maybe maybe her dad abused,

00:17:08.180 sexually abused Kaylee and then intentionally drowned or put sort of I can't tell her whether

00:17:15.740 she's used her mother with the pillow and then threw her in the pool to make it look like

00:17:21.520 to drown.

00:17:22.560 Yes, here's the problem.

00:17:23.720 Here's the problem, Megan, with what she just said in trying to justify what she's saying

00:17:28.540 now with what Jose said in the opening statement is that Jose Bias had like direct quotes in

00:17:34.640 his opening statement.

00:17:35.940 And that can only come from one place unless they have a video of this.

00:17:40.860 And that's where Jose tells the jury that George came in.

00:17:44.700 He was angry.

00:17:45.300 He said, look at what you did.

00:17:46.440 You know, your mother's never going to forgive you.

00:17:49.440 I mean, those are like quotes.

00:17:51.080 There's only two people who that quote can come from George Anthony, obviously not him

00:17:55.620 because he says it didn't happen or Casey Anthony.

00:17:58.640 So I think what happened here and Jose will know, but he probably can't reveal it because

00:18:02.660 of attorney client privilege is that Casey told him one story and he based his opening

00:18:08.940 statement on that.

00:18:10.020 And now she's coming up with a completely different story for whatever reason.

00:18:14.600 But to cheer the original point you made, she was so terrified of her dad who had allegedly

00:18:20.420 abused her for all those years that she couldn't tell Jose or the police he he hurt Kaylee.

00:18:26.680 He came to me with my daughter's dead body and then told me not to tell anybody and then

00:18:31.380 told me for 30 days to keep my mouth shut until my mom found out.

00:18:35.500 And then the jig was up.

00:18:36.580 She was too terrified to say that.

00:18:38.500 But she wasn't too terrified to say he sexually abused me.

00:18:41.740 He sneaked into my room.

00:18:42.940 He hurt me for years like so he's terrifying enough to, like, hold back the murder claim,

00:18:49.600 but not the disgusting sexual abuse claims that she did somehow find the courage to make

00:18:55.160 Vinny.

00:18:55.700 I mean, it's the absurdity of, you know, where she draws these fake lines.

00:19:00.380 Yeah.

00:19:00.780 And but here's the here's the danger with with these types of documentaries is that there's

00:19:05.560 a whole generation of people didn't watch the trial, didn't live through it like we did.

00:19:09.580 And they'll watch this.

00:19:12.000 And I work with some people who watch this, didn't see the trial and they come away with

00:19:17.060 it with George Anthony is evil.

00:19:20.560 He is the villain in all of this.

00:19:22.480 And that's going to be the takeaway.

00:19:23.960 That's why I'm glad I heard you say that George Anthony now is considering some legal

00:19:29.200 action.

00:19:30.320 Let's do it.

00:19:31.680 Let's make that lawsuit in Florida and let's put cameras in the courtroom and let's make

00:19:35.760 Casey Anthony get up on the witness stand and testify.

00:19:38.200 Yeah.

00:19:39.140 Why could they do that?

00:19:40.460 Could could he cross count?

00:19:41.960 Could he counter sue for wrongful death and in the way the Goldman's did?

00:19:46.120 And let's have it out.

00:19:47.080 Let's have a civil verdict on it.

00:19:49.020 Yeah, I was thinking more defamation, but because I love them.

00:19:52.880 Yeah.

00:19:53.160 Trials.

00:19:53.840 I saw one in Virginia that was really good.

00:19:56.500 And and people now understand how that works.

00:19:59.940 And you can win a defamation trial in this country these days.

00:20:03.120 So that's what I was thinking.

00:20:04.700 That was the problem with this case, though, right?

00:20:06.520 The wrongful death, because in the OJ Simpson trial, there was still a victim's family that

00:20:11.540 was going to go forward here.

00:20:12.480 The victim's family is the defendant directly and then the grandparents indirectly.

00:20:18.720 And so we never got that civil case.

00:20:21.280 But maybe a defamation suit at this point could could bring the truth out a little bit more

00:20:27.680 clearly because it would force her to testify.

00:20:30.060 She I mean, she says so many horrible things about her father, the sexual abuse.

00:20:35.960 She I should state clearly he denies all of this.

00:20:39.080 And the brother Lee denies her terrible allegations about him, too, although they didn't speak to

00:20:44.620 this, quote unquote, documentary filmmaker.

00:20:47.540 But she says the dad had multiple affairs on the mom.

00:20:50.720 The dad stole sixty thousand dollars from the mom.

00:20:53.440 The dad was a serial liar.

00:20:55.560 There they play a clip of the couple arguing the dad, George and the mother of Casey Anthony.

00:21:02.360 I think twenty eighteen.

00:21:04.780 It was years after the fact in an interview with Elizabeth Vargas in which the mother is

00:21:08.540 like she learned how to lie from you.

00:21:10.260 She does say to George that Casey Anthony learned how to lie from you.

00:21:14.240 They have an argument on camera.

00:21:15.920 It's actually kind of uncomfortable to watch.

00:21:17.460 So, look, there's no question that Casey Anthony is a very damaged, effed up person like that's

00:21:23.640 it's very clear.

00:21:24.840 It's kind of the way I feel about the Menendez case.

00:21:26.540 Like, you know, your your sons kill you as a parent.

00:21:30.520 It is the ultimate F in parenting.

00:21:32.100 Like, I don't know that the dad was abusing those two boys, but clearly these were bad parents

00:21:38.200 because both of the boys wound up murdering them.

00:21:40.460 And I kind of feel like I'm going to guess George is not going to win parent of the year

00:21:44.700 if we actually put him on under a microscope.

00:21:47.220 But none of that excuses what she did.

00:21:49.960 As I say, there are sadly millions of sexual abuse victims, even at the hands of their own

00:21:54.520 family members who would never, ever excuse that abusing parents murder of their own children.

00:22:02.880 Yeah, it and that's with this, the docuseries, there's such a focus on that part of it that

00:22:11.920 that gets lost, I think, a little bit by people who are coming across this story and this case

00:22:17.680 really for the first time.

00:22:19.360 Maybe they heard the name or something, but, oh, I'm going to watch the series.

00:22:22.320 I can find out what happened.

00:22:23.580 You're not going to find out what happened by watching this.

00:22:26.140 It's fascinating to hear her weave these lies.

00:22:29.340 And the bottom line is, and I always compared her to Jodi Arias, right?

00:22:34.840 Because Jodi Arias was a notorious liar as well.

00:22:37.760 Casey Anthony was just a much better liar.

00:22:40.480 She could, on the dime, just on the dime, make that, go into that mode and just completely

00:22:48.760 make something up.

00:22:49.960 It's fascinating in the documentary where they talk about how she's there with the officers

00:22:54.760 going to her office at Universal where she didn't work.

00:23:00.100 And she's walking through the office waving hello to people, going to an office that she

00:23:04.300 doesn't work in.

00:23:05.140 I mean, she is just unreal in the way she can very easily do it.

00:23:09.460 So at the end of the day, knowing all that, why would you believe anything she ever says?

00:23:17.000 Why would she believe anything that she ever says?

00:23:19.980 You mentioned in passing the 31 days, and for the people who aren't familiar with this

00:23:23.160 story, that's a critical period to understand.

00:23:25.400 Because let's take it as true for the purposes of argument that she took a nap with the baby

00:23:30.800 and she wakes up and the little girl's gone.

00:23:33.480 And she runs around the property, as she now claims, looking for little Kaylee.

00:23:37.180 Can't find her.

00:23:38.120 Then she sees her dad come up with the baby who is wet and heavy and says, you did this.

00:23:44.600 This is because of you.

00:23:46.760 And then she holds her.

00:23:49.220 But then the dad takes her back, the baby back, and walks away and says, she's going to be

00:23:53.660 OK.

00:23:54.460 According to Casey Anthony, Casey then left the house, went to stay with her boyfriend,

00:24:01.000 and for 31 days went to clubs.

00:24:03.980 You know, now she says, I wasn't partying.

00:24:05.900 I wasn't drinking.

00:24:06.820 I was working to help my boyfriend, who is a promoter at nightclubs.

00:24:10.400 That's all I was.

00:24:11.160 That's all.

00:24:11.800 And as you point out a second ago, it was all under instructions from my father.

00:24:16.220 You know, if you look at my phone records, I was talking to him every day.

00:24:18.380 And now she wants us to believe in those phone calls.

00:24:20.480 They weren't just talking about life, father, daughter.

00:24:22.420 He was like, be quiet, play it cool.

00:24:25.480 All's well.

00:24:26.340 And all the time, she's like, how's Casey or Kaylee?

00:24:29.780 How's Kaylee?

00:24:30.180 Because now she wants us to believe that the whole time she thought the baby was alive.

00:24:34.120 And somehow the father just, I don't know, where did she think the father was keeping

00:24:38.240 her?

00:24:38.700 What did the mother have to say?

00:24:39.920 Like, nothing adds up.

00:24:42.020 It doesn't.

00:24:42.920 And she's telling us in this docuseries that she believes Kaylee's alive the whole time.

00:24:47.040 She doesn't just know she's dead until that day when they find her body in December.

00:24:50.940 She has to cover her behavior.

00:24:52.460 She has to cover her partying behavior somehow.

00:24:55.440 Here's the here's the other part of the docuseries that I think is significant, though, because

00:24:58.640 they go after George so hard.

00:25:00.760 And then while they give the investigators a voice by the end of the docuseries, they try

00:25:05.680 to make them look like cartoon characters and like buffoons, the documentary makers.

00:25:12.300 And you're left with, well, why didn't they investigate George?

00:25:16.300 Well, there was no reason to.

00:25:18.560 The reason you would investigate George is if Casey Anthony, when she's interviewed by

00:25:23.480 investigators and they say, where's your daughter?

00:25:25.560 She would say, well, my father took her.

00:25:30.300 That's how George would get investigated.

00:25:32.260 But she never said that.

00:25:34.220 Why?

00:25:34.820 Because it never happened.

00:25:36.700 It never happened.

00:25:37.700 She was she was locked into the Zanny, the nanny.

00:25:40.500 It's like it's like and she kind of blows off Zanny, the nanny and like criticizes people

00:25:45.140 for trying to figure out why she made up the story about Zanny, the nanny.

00:25:48.980 Like we're supposed to understand her lies.

00:25:51.480 It's just just to interject.

00:25:52.780 That's what she originally.

00:25:54.460 I want you to just just so the audience understands.

00:25:57.320 She originally told the investigators that she gave the baby to Zanny, the nanny.

00:26:01.100 And then when she went to pick up the baby, Zanny, the nanny was gone.

00:26:04.600 The phone had been disconnected.

00:26:05.780 And Zanny, the nanny, she did not say my dad hurt the baby.

00:26:09.780 My dad's been telling me to be quiet all this time.

00:26:12.040 Now she admits Zanny, the nanny was a fabrication.

00:26:14.860 She did not.

00:26:15.860 She did not have Kaylee.

00:26:17.600 And so she she cops to that.

00:26:19.220 But she attributes her lie to just, again, my abuse.

00:26:22.240 And I've really spent all this time in therapy trying to figure out why I'm such a liar.

00:26:25.700 But it's because of my abuse.

00:26:27.760 Can I just ask you, though, because this this is one of the weirdest lies.

00:26:31.240 I think it relates to the Google search full proof suffocation.

00:26:35.280 That we later found out from Jose's book was found on the Anthony computer on the day the baby went missing or, you know, disappeared.

00:26:45.420 Here's what Casey's now alleging her dad used to do to her when she was little and he was abusing her.

00:26:53.400 Listen to three.

00:26:55.840 I'm still laying there acting like I'm asleep.

00:27:02.520 And he starts to touch me.

00:27:05.280 Slowly move my hair off of my neck.

00:27:10.960 Went his hands down my back.

00:27:13.740 Underneath my shirt.

00:27:16.800 I remember the first time he put his hands down my pants.

00:27:20.840 Slid from the back first and then went around the front.

00:27:24.740 I was never able to push him off of me.

00:27:26.520 Pillow goes over my face.

00:27:27.580 What do you mean by pillow goes over my face?

00:27:31.740 He smothered me several times.

00:27:33.640 Smothered you so you would pass out.

00:27:36.800 Several times.

00:27:40.040 He smothered her several times to the point where she would pass out several times.

00:27:45.900 Now, explain why she's saying this.

00:27:48.260 Tell the audience why why she feels the need to say this.

00:27:54.360 Here's here's here's my take on that, OK, because she is now going to allege that that's what George did.

00:28:02.440 And to Kaylee, so he's abusing Kaylee.

00:28:06.280 She's not cooperating.

00:28:07.220 So he smothers her and ends up killing her.

00:28:11.080 There's also the search on the Firefox search engine for a foolproof suffocation on the on the home computer.

00:28:21.380 Now, what's interesting about the Firefox search engine is that she's the only one in the house that uses the Firefox search engine.

00:28:28.020 And the search that was done after foolproof suffocation was back to my favorite old website, MySpace, which Casey Anthony was on.

00:28:38.060 So she's trying to say that her dad was on the computer looking up foolproof suffocation because he was going to commit suicide because he had just murdered his granddaughter and then went on to MySpace.

00:28:49.700 Yeah. OK. OK.

00:28:52.280 Yeah. So she's she and and Marsha Clark pointed out that the day that Casey got interviewed by the police for the first time and then dropped off back at home after they had discovered that the little girl was missing.

00:29:04.780 The first thing that she appears to have done was to gone to the computer and delete the search history.

00:29:10.480 Now, who would delete the search history other than the person who had done the search and knew that they didn't really want the cops finding foolproof suffocation on there?

00:29:18.320 Jose, I believe, is going to come on in a minute, Vinny, and say that was George who did that search.

00:29:23.060 That he also searched up gardening information about how to kill a rhododendron in 10 different ways that he would.

00:29:31.480 He logged in under AOL Messenger and Cindy that actually die.

00:29:36.040 Who knows? But that that he logged in under AOL Messenger and he was the only one who used AOL Messenger.

00:29:41.760 He's going to say all that was clearly more in line with a George type search than a Casey.

00:29:46.920 Yeah. Here's one other fact that came out that and I don't know if we knew this before, is that how.

00:29:55.260 Kaylee was conceived.

00:29:57.040 She told the story in the docuseries that she was given a date rape drug and then she passed out.

00:30:02.820 She woke up. Her clothes were pulled over her head.

00:30:06.080 Her breasts were exposed and then she was pregnant.

00:30:09.020 So she had no idea who the father was.

00:30:13.280 Third, third time she'd been sexually assaulted, I guess, the father, her brother and the father of Kaylee.

00:30:19.280 Mm hmm. Right. Exactly.

00:30:20.880 We had not heard that before. That was new information.

00:30:24.180 I'll get a last question for you, because she, as we discussed, really went after the dad.

00:30:28.540 And one of I'm going to give her this point.

00:30:31.140 She talks about what the dad said about the baby at when he eulogized her.

00:30:35.200 It was a little weird. I'm I remember at the time being like, it's a little off what he's saying.

00:30:42.380 Now, who the hell knows when you're grieving the loss of your granddaughter and your daughter's accused of killing her and all this.

00:30:47.860 But here's her talking about watching her dad's eulogy of the baby.

00:30:54.180 To be the grandfather of Kaylee Marie Anthony, who not only meant the world to me, but meant the world to my family.

00:31:03.020 And so many of you that never got a chance to actually hug her, smell her hair, smell the sweet sweat when she came in from outside.

00:31:16.400 Are you fucking kidding me?

00:31:17.920 To hear her call me Jojo.

00:31:19.400 Jojo, I miss that kiss on the cheek, that special hug that I tell everyone it's so great to get a hug from someone, but to get a hug from a small child, that gives me energy like you couldn't imagine.

00:31:47.420 That's not normal.

00:31:49.400 Nothing about that is fucking normal.

00:31:56.580 You're outright telling the world that you're a pedophile.

00:32:00.340 I'm not going to say how much I'm going to miss things that I won't be able to do with her because someday I'll be able to hold her hand again in God's heaven.

00:32:08.200 I'll be able to take her in wagon rides. I'll be able to kiss her. I'll be able to smell her again.

00:32:12.900 A lot more things make sense.

00:32:14.840 That's not necessarily a good thing.

00:32:19.580 Yeah. At least she was able to produce actual tears in that moment. What did you what did you think of it?

00:32:26.500 Well, the music helps make it even creepier, right?

00:32:31.240 Yeah, the smelling thing. I don't get. We may need an expert witness. Do you know anyone, Megan, who who likes to smell children's hair?

00:32:41.860 Is he in the White House right now?

00:32:44.860 So maybe very innocent in both cases or just the one?

00:32:51.920 I don't know. I'm not saying I'm just saying you would need an expert witness to fully understand that issue.

00:32:58.280 So it's not something I'm familiar with. I'm not a I'm not a sniffer like that.

00:33:02.980 I got to say, I I don't know what happened between Casey Anthony and her father, George.

00:33:07.020 I really have no idea. But I do know that she's a liar and that her inconsistent stories prove she lied about this case over and over and over again.

00:33:16.940 And there's only one reason why she would have lied and behaved the way she did for those 31 days when she knew her daughter at best, even under her version, had been severely injured.

00:33:24.820 And that is because she understood that this her life and her view was going to be better without that kid.

00:33:31.040 And there had been lots of testimony at the trial to that extent. She didn't like being a mother.

00:33:35.460 She wanted to be footloose and fancy free. She was 19 years old and she wasn't ready for it.

00:33:40.580 And that little girl was the victim of her of her immaturity, desires and pathological lying.

00:33:49.180 Vinny, so good to see you again. Please come back.

00:33:51.880 It's been a pleasure. And I'll speak to Jose next and get his take on on this and then on some of his other big cases.

00:34:00.060 Jose's been like I said, he's done a lot of fascinating stuff.

00:34:03.700 The Aaron Hernandez case in particular, I'd like to get into with him.

00:34:10.000 We continue to discuss the latest on Casey Anthony with our next guest.

00:34:13.680 It was this case that made Jose Baez a household name.

00:34:17.840 He's fascinating to watch in the courtroom. He's been very successful there.

00:34:21.200 And he is truly one of the most skilled defense lawyers in the country.

00:34:24.840 Welcome, Jose. Great to have you on.

00:34:26.760 Great to be here. Finally.

00:34:28.680 I love your your personal backstory.

00:34:30.720 You know, you struggled. You sort of pulled yourself up by your bootstraps.

00:34:34.340 And now you've become this very sought after criminal defense attorney teaching at Harvard Law.

00:34:39.480 I mean, you did it all on your own. So good on you.

00:34:43.380 Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

00:34:45.240 Yeah. I love anybody who didn't have a silver spoon.

00:34:47.140 I got here nonetheless. Say again.

00:34:49.860 I said it was the road less traveled, but I got here nonetheless.

00:34:53.600 Yeah, that's right.

00:34:55.280 Now, that is all separate from the fact that people hold this acquittal against you because you were the lawyer.

00:35:01.580 But that's what criminal defense attorneys do.

00:35:04.780 Right. If there's somebody to blame, if you think Casey Anthony is guilty, it is her.

00:35:09.720 It's not the lawyer.

00:35:10.660 We want good criminal defense attorneys to hold the state to account.

00:35:15.000 We don't want a state that gets all the presumptions and doesn't have a talented lawyer on the other side trying to test it.

00:35:20.460 That's how innocent people go to jail.

00:35:21.980 So just to start with that, because I it annoys me when people blame the criminal defense attorneys.

00:35:26.960 That's literally what you're supposed to do.

00:35:28.520 So let's go back to the Casey Anthony case.

00:35:30.620 Is it true you were only three years into practice at the time you took on that case?

00:35:35.320 Yes and no, I had in my career.

00:35:42.760 So basically what I did was when I got out of law school, I went straight to work at the public defender's office.

00:35:50.120 And then I had an issue with the Florida Bar because of past financial troubles where I was denied admission initially.

00:35:57.960 So that literally took me eight years to recuperate from that issue.

00:36:02.420 I can tell you there's nothing there was nothing more challenging or there was no more challenging time in my life that after scratching and clawing my way after dropping out of high school in the ninth grade and going back to school and struggling to make it all the way through law school to be finally there and then told you can't practice law because you were financially irresponsible.

00:36:28.320 It was a quite devastating time for me and I think it served me well because you learn a lot through your challenges and you learn a lot through your own injustices and and I utilize that every day.

00:36:44.000 So, well, I know I know you're a big believer in second chances and in the underdog.

00:36:48.580 These are not unusual traits in criminal defense attorneys.

00:36:52.660 There's a reason it resonates with you as a profession and it would come to help a lot of people.

00:36:59.420 Let's talk about this.

00:37:00.360 I know you did not participate in the documentary and you didn't watch the documentary, which I think is reminded me of the Herb Brooks story, you know, the miracle.

00:37:07.840 And that and it ends with saying Herb Brooks died before it hit the screens starring Kurt Russell.

00:37:13.560 They said he never saw it.

00:37:15.460 And then they write he lived it.

00:37:17.300 And that's kind of that's kind of how you are in this documentary.

00:37:22.020 Right.

00:37:22.600 I really you know, I can't speak intelligently about it.

00:37:25.600 I didn't see it and I didn't see it where it's in context.

00:37:29.380 And, you know, to me.

00:37:33.060 I'm a terrible businessman because a lot of my colleagues are telling me you should be going out making the rounds.

00:37:40.040 And the reality is, is I don't need to do victory laps on a case I won 11 years ago.

00:37:47.160 My most important case is the next one right in front of me, because in this business, nobody cares what you did in the past, only when they're hiring you in hopes of what you're going to do in the future.

00:37:57.640 So for me right now, my main focus is what's in front of me and what I have, the current cases that I have, which are very dear and important to me and very important to the families of the folks that I represent.

00:38:15.220 So, yeah, I'm trying to figure out whether there was a falling out, because she says in this documentary that she's very close with several members of her defense team who she describes as her new family.

00:38:26.380 Obviously, she's not close with the first family and she lists them by name and you're not listed.

00:38:31.660 So was there a falling out?

00:38:34.200 No, there's no falling out.

00:38:35.720 I mean, it's just been 11 years and I've moved on with other cases and I have.

00:38:41.520 Clients that I represented three years ago who I'll hear occasionally from, but, you know, we're not we're not friends or family.

00:38:52.580 They are they are clients who are all very special to me and very important learning experiences in my life.

00:39:00.480 But it's not something that that I hold on to because I have what I do.

00:39:08.180 You have to be all in or not in at all.

00:39:10.940 And I'm I guess one of those true believers that believes you have to be all in.

00:39:17.500 So, you know, I wish nothing but the best for Miss Anthony and I really hope she finds peace in her life and and all of those other folks who are also involved.

00:39:30.960 But I know I've got, as you know, from even this interview, we've been trying to set this up for six months.

00:39:38.480 But my my work schedule has gotten in the way forever.

00:39:42.680 Like every case you take on is in the headlines.

00:39:45.180 These are big cases with big stakes.

00:39:47.080 So I do get it.

00:39:48.700 I mean, it's hard for me to think to feel as you do that.

00:39:51.720 I wish her the best.

00:39:52.620 You know, I wish her peace.

00:39:53.940 I I don't feel I confess I don't feel that way.

00:39:56.400 You heard me say in the first time when I don't I definitely think she did it like most of America does.

00:40:00.360 And I know you may disagree.

00:40:01.680 But I I really believe as a Catholic, I believe she's going to go to hell.

00:40:06.720 I believe she will meet her maker and she will be held to account for what I believe she did to her own baby.

00:40:12.920 And to listen to her tell these obvious lies, Jose, was somewhat infuriating to me.

00:40:19.320 It was as a lawyer, as a mother.

00:40:22.480 I'm you know, I get why they did it, why they put it together.

00:40:26.380 But I don't think it was a fair piece at all.

00:40:28.420 It did not include the prosecution's arguments or rebuttals to what she was saying.

00:40:32.560 And it really gave her a pass on the toughest evidence against her, just a big platform to spew what appeared to me to be blatant lies, lies that didn't even comport with your argument at the trial.

00:40:44.980 Like, let's just deal with that first deal with the emotion in this case, because, you know, I speak for millions of people who hate her.

00:40:50.580 Right. So to those people who feel as I just outlined, I feel what would say you?

00:40:56.980 Well, it's interesting because you and I haven't spoken for years.

00:41:00.680 I think the last time we spoke was back when the case was going on.

00:41:06.080 Yeah.

00:41:06.580 So and I can tell you back then, no one knew what happened.

00:41:12.620 And the evidence in this case is one that we're never going to have all of the answers.

00:41:18.340 And people have a hard time with that.

00:41:20.520 People need finality.

00:41:22.420 People need to know certain things.

00:41:24.300 And I think that that's a big problem when it comes to talking about people in their lives and whether they did something or not.

00:41:32.940 Here you are saying you wish she goes to hell.

00:41:36.900 I think the reality is the reality is, you know, I understand how you feel.

00:41:42.920 There's certainly a lot of folks who agree with you, and there's certainly folks that agree on the other side.

00:41:51.240 So the one thing that's certain, and I knew this case back in the day better than anyone.

00:41:57.400 And the one thing that is certain is that we're never going to really know what happened.

00:42:02.100 And I can say this much, the evidence was extremely weak when you got past the noise.

00:42:12.000 Now, the noise is still there, and that's why people still feel the way they do.

00:42:16.540 But once you got past the noise, there was no evidence for us to really understand what actually happened.

00:42:22.480 That was the central thing.

00:42:23.500 You're not wrong about that.

00:42:24.600 You're not wrong about that.

00:42:25.560 That was the prosecution's biggest challenge was that they couldn't tell the jury exactly how she died.

00:42:30.860 They didn't know.

00:42:32.420 And by the time they found little Kaylee's remains, there was no way of proving it.

00:42:37.820 The remains were too decomposed.

00:42:40.000 You were not able to determine the specific cause of death.

00:42:44.040 And so that was really a problem because you're right, juries, Americans and juries in particular, they want to know what happened.

00:42:51.480 They want the prosecution to be able to say she did it and this is how she did it.

00:42:55.720 And they couldn't.

00:42:56.700 That was a major challenge that you exploited well, that you took proper advantage of.

00:43:02.640 Well, you know, I don't believe I exploited it.

00:43:05.860 This is our constitution.

00:43:07.540 This is our system of justice.

00:43:09.640 And, you know, we like to judge people in life and we like to judge them, especially in the media and in the courtroom.

00:43:16.360 And I think what you have to do when you set up a system of justice is it has to be in line with what actually occurred so that we don't have the flip side of wrongful convictions, which run abundant in our system.

00:43:32.080 I mean, you know, rather than get on, I'm not trying to get on a white horse of justice here, but the reality is people gripe and complain about and get outraged over Casey Anthony.

00:43:44.460 But you don't see that type of outrage when someone spends 30 years in prison.

00:43:49.480 You hear about one story when they get out and that's the end of it.

00:43:52.900 Nobody cares about them after that.

00:43:54.800 Nobody cares about those responsible for putting them there.

00:43:57.560 And no one goes after those who put them there.

00:44:00.080 And and there's hundreds and thousands of cases going on every single day where that occurs.

00:44:07.040 And and for that reason, we need these safeguards in place.

00:44:12.160 And and if you don't believe in the guilty man, go free before one innocent man goes to prison.

00:44:20.520 Well, you will if it ever happens to you or someone you love.

00:44:24.060 I hear it.

00:44:24.500 I hear you.

00:44:25.320 I always say that criminal defense attorneys are like guns.

00:44:28.620 You may be averse to them until you need one and then you pay anything to have one.

00:44:35.120 But I do.

00:44:36.140 I do.

00:44:36.700 You know, I don't think she's an innocent person.

00:44:38.520 I think she's one of the rare people who is guilty and managed to just find a great lawyer who got her off.

00:44:44.660 And so good on you, but not good on her.

00:44:46.860 I mean, most of us can see with our own eyes.

00:44:48.480 There's there's just not a sane person in the world who behaved the way she did.

00:44:51.640 If she had gone in, you know, under her story the day her dad allegedly said, oh, here's here's a wet Kaylee.

00:44:57.720 She was not moving.

00:44:59.000 And I'm calling 911.

00:45:00.640 And she called and said, oh, my God, you know, my baby.

00:45:03.780 Something happened.

00:45:04.780 No, of course.

00:45:05.760 I would believe her.

00:45:06.800 There was a terrible accident.

00:45:08.420 Maybe it was the dad's, you know, his fault.

00:45:10.920 Maybe it was her fault.

00:45:11.440 Who knows?

00:45:12.520 It was the 31 days after the fact that she never called 911.

00:45:15.540 She went partying in the nightclubs.

00:45:16.720 She got a Bella Vida tattoo, which she tries to explain away in this documentary as an FU to her family.

00:45:21.880 She told police lie after lie when they finally came into her life because her mother called the cops because she she said the car that my daughter had been driving smells like it had a dead body in it.

00:45:32.200 Finally, the cops found Casey Anthony and she lied, lied, lied, lied, lied, lied, lied, lied, lied.

00:45:36.100 She didn't say George had the baby.

00:45:38.080 She didn't say he's been coaching me for 30 days to keep quiet.

00:45:41.240 But she's like, it was Annie, the nanny.

00:45:43.340 Let's go to Universal Studios where I work.

00:45:45.440 And she had to admit during the middle of this wild goose chase.

00:45:47.380 She didn't actually work there.

00:45:48.260 It was just on and on.

00:45:50.220 And Jose for her to now be like, it was all my trauma.

00:45:53.220 That's literally what she says.

00:45:54.660 It was the result of trauma.

00:45:56.260 No one asked why I lied.

00:45:57.620 That's what she said.

00:45:58.320 I want to get it exactly.

00:45:59.460 I lied, but no one asked why.

00:46:02.080 No one asked.

00:46:02.620 No one cared why I lied.

00:46:04.080 But I have a voice now and I am not afraid of my abuser.

00:46:08.180 Why did you lie to police?

00:46:09.340 I was doing what I was told to do by my dad.

00:46:12.820 I mean, do you believe that?

00:46:14.980 Well, there's a lot of criticisms of Miss Anthony's defense and her position.

00:46:21.500 But if you want to say she's guilty, I would flip it on the other side.

00:46:24.940 And I know you, you along with a lot of folks say, I know she's guilty.

00:46:29.420 But OK, so what does she do?

00:46:31.060 Explain it to me.

00:46:32.300 How does she do it?

00:46:33.440 I don't need to know the cause.

00:46:34.480 I'm just saying juries may.

00:46:35.920 I don't need to know exactly how she did it.

00:46:37.360 I just know she did it.

00:46:38.140 No, I agree.

00:46:39.560 You don't need to know.

00:46:40.400 But so then, you know, how much stock can we put in that?

00:46:44.840 And that's a lot.

00:46:45.780 There's a dead baby.

00:46:46.780 It's not like we never found the body.

00:46:48.520 We found a dead baby with duct tape on our mouth and thrown away like trash in a garbage

00:46:52.800 bag in a in a wooded area, 14 houses away from Casey Anthony's.

00:46:56.740 We know somebody hurt that child.

00:46:58.700 That's a horrible.

00:46:59.660 Yeah, that's a horrible, outrageous thing.

00:47:01.780 And and but that's not we're not talking about a murder there.

00:47:05.420 We're talking about something, some incredibly huge immoral act that someone and I've never

00:47:13.220 been I've never hidden it from the fact that I curse whoever put her there and whoever did

00:47:17.860 that to her.

00:47:18.580 And I think it's disgusting.

00:47:19.960 And I certainly hope that somebody will know.

00:47:25.520 But let me just jump in because we're going to hit a hard break and I don't want the computer

00:47:29.680 to cut you off.

00:47:30.320 So we're I'll pause you.

00:47:31.560 We're going to come right back in a couple of minutes and resume our discussion that Aaron

00:47:34.940 Hernandez and a fascinating medical case Jose has been handling.

00:47:37.620 Let's talk about the opening statement.

00:47:43.040 You heard Vinny mention it, your opening statement.

00:47:45.320 Many believe it's what saved Casey Anthony in that trial.

00:47:49.020 You in the opening statement, just so the audience knows, they call it an opening statement

00:47:54.820 and a closing argument.

00:47:56.220 In the closing, you're allowed to argue.

00:47:58.700 You can argue the facts that the jury has heard in the opening statement.

00:48:02.800 You're only supposed to be stating what the facts will be when you get the witnesses on

00:48:08.500 the stand, what you will prove to them.

00:48:10.740 And what was controversial about your opening statement is you did not wind up proving you

00:48:15.680 did not submit the evidence that was in this opening statement, but it was in the jurors

00:48:20.480 heads and many believe it saved her.

00:48:23.180 So let's talk about that after I play a little bit of it.

00:48:25.360 Here's what you said in Sot 8 about little Kaylee and how she likely died.

00:48:29.700 Kaylee Anthony died on June 16, 2008, when she drowned in her family's swimming pool.

00:48:36.680 She saw George Anthony holding Kaylee in his arms.

00:48:41.880 She immediately grabbed Kaylee and began to cry and cry and cry.

00:48:51.720 And shortly thereafter, George began to yell at her.

00:48:54.980 Look what you've done.

00:48:55.900 Your mother will never forgive you and you will go to jail for child neglect for the rest

00:49:02.560 of your freaking life.

00:49:06.460 So why did you never introduce any of that evidence at trial?

00:49:11.300 Because I didn't have to.

00:49:13.720 Our system of justice requires the government to prove your guilt beyond to the exclusion of

00:49:19.060 every reasonable doubt.

00:49:20.000 As a defense lawyer, it's your job to point out the reasonable hypothesis of innocence.

00:49:26.180 Everything I said in there, I had a good faith basis based on the evidence and based on what

00:49:30.680 I anticipated the evidence to show.

00:49:33.540 At no time am I required to put Casey on the stand and at no time was she required to be put

00:49:40.440 on the stand.

00:49:41.120 But there's a lot of things that prosecutors sometimes argue in their cases that they don't

00:49:47.780 get to prove.

00:49:48.740 And they certainly didn't prove a murder.

00:49:50.960 So no one's going back and asking them, why did you say this and this not come out or

00:49:56.060 anything like that?

00:49:56.880 I can tell you, every single word I said in that opening statement, as in with every opening

00:50:04.300 statement that I give in my career, it is based on a good faith basis, based on a lot of what

00:50:12.960 I know that goes around in the background of the evidence.

00:50:16.340 And when I get asked about this case in particular, the very first thing that I tell people is

00:50:25.640 if Casey told me at any point during that trial or when it was asked upon her whether she would

00:50:32.060 take the stand, hey, I want to testify, and I tell her, oh, no, you're not, it doesn't matter

00:50:39.360 what I say.

00:50:40.380 She's going to get up there and testify, and it's her constitutional right.

00:50:44.800 So for me to exclude things that I have a good faith basis may come out should either

00:50:51.980 another witness testify to it or she testifies to it, it has to be put out there.

00:50:56.840 Otherwise, I'd be facing malpractice.

00:50:58.880 Imagine all this comes out at the last trial.

00:51:02.120 Well, where did you get your good faith basis?

00:51:03.880 I get that.

00:51:05.900 But where'd you get the good faith basis?

00:51:07.860 That she drowned in the pool?

00:51:09.740 That she saw that the mother, Casey, saw her dad holding little Kaylee in his arms?

00:51:15.620 That she immediately grabbed Kaylee and began to cry?

00:51:18.280 This is very specific.

00:51:19.840 She immediately grabbed her and began to cry.

00:51:22.000 And that George yelled at her with the following quotes.

00:51:24.820 Look what you've done.

00:51:25.960 Your mother will never forgive you and you will go to jail for child neglect for the rest.

00:51:29.060 Where'd you get that from?

00:51:30.820 Well, you know better than to ask me those questions.

00:51:32.960 I mean, you know, there's a thing that I respect incredibly, which is the attorney-client privilege as well as other evidence in the case.

00:51:39.600 You just finished talking about with Vinnie Paulitan about potential lawsuits.

00:51:43.000 Do you think I want to drag myself into that when I've got all these other things going on in my life?

00:51:47.920 I'd rather not even go anywhere near that.

00:51:52.160 But I can tell you this, when I say I had a good faith basis, I am absolutely convinced I had a good faith basis.

00:52:02.060 I stand by that today, as I did 11 years ago.

00:52:06.560 And believe me, when I tell you there were numerous facts that came out in that case in evidence that no one ever talks about and no one ever wants to discuss.

00:52:18.740 And I'll just leave it at that.

00:52:21.420 What do you mean?

00:52:22.280 Finish your sentence.

00:52:23.540 That what?

00:52:24.040 That bolster the drowning theory?

00:52:25.680 Again, you have to read the transcripts or look at the actual trial.

00:52:30.920 There's tons of stuff in there.

00:52:33.220 And I'd rather not rehash it.

00:52:35.560 I'm just asking you, what point are you making, though?

00:52:37.980 Like, I'm not going to go back and look at every.

00:52:39.900 What are you trying to say to go there?

00:52:41.880 What point would it prove that that she drowned or like what?

00:52:44.960 What are you saying is bolstered by a review of the transcripts?

00:52:48.580 Well, there were there was evidence testified to by our forensic experts as to the potential drowning theory.

00:52:57.500 There was in addition to that, there was cross examination that the jury can make their interpretations based on.

00:53:05.040 They could they're free to believe a witness or not believe a witness based on those questions.

00:53:08.800 And I can tell you this, a lot of the feedback that we got from the jury is they believe certain parts of the evidence.

00:53:15.960 There were statements made at numerous points throughout the trial that raised serious concern about the drowning in the pool.

00:53:27.540 And when I say concern, I mean, raise the issue that that was certainly a potential aspect.

00:53:34.300 And it's the prosecutor's job to exclude that reasonable hypothesis.

00:53:39.420 That's true.

00:53:40.040 So, you know, they knew they knew about the drowning theory since day one.

00:53:46.120 And she had been telling cops it wasn't true to exclude that.

00:53:50.160 I get that. But but Casey had told the police that didn't happen.

00:53:54.520 She said that at the time and to the documentary filmmakers credit, she actually does include that in this piece.

00:54:01.200 There's an interview with a law enforcement officer saying that Casey was adamant that the child did not drown in the pool.

00:54:07.980 And sure enough, Casey today is adamant that the baby did not drown in the pool.

00:54:13.700 She's you know, you may have heard me play for Vinny, but she's like, there's lots of possible theories.

00:54:19.120 That's not one of them. Just to reiterate, I don't want to play it again.

00:54:21.920 But she says lots of scenarios of what could happen.

00:54:24.160 Her drowning in the pool is not one. It is not possible.

00:54:27.060 In most scenarios, it'd be plausible.

00:54:28.680 Not this one. The latter was not on the pool.

00:54:30.740 It's the only only way in or out for her or for me.

00:54:35.280 Well, you're not going to pin me against my former client's statements.

00:54:39.080 I have nothing to say about that.

00:54:40.500 That's not a case that I'm currently handling.

00:54:42.820 So I'm not going to comment on that.

00:54:44.340 But I can tell you this.

00:54:45.800 If I had a nickel for every lie that was spoken in that case, I'd have been able to retire right after.

00:54:52.160 For sure.

00:54:52.740 I'm not referring to the lies in that have to do with Miss Anthony.

00:54:58.140 There were lies throughout that case from multiple witnesses and multiple people on the side who had knowledge and information but chose to say other things.

00:55:10.220 So having said that, that's really not foreign when it comes to criminal cases because people have their specific agendas and interests.

00:55:18.380 So you have to look at a case in its entirety and the entire complexity of the case.

00:55:24.680 Look, your best argument on that front is the fact that the jury found for you.

00:55:30.900 No one's going to dispute that.

00:55:32.440 Your best argument is that the jury did that and found in your favor.

00:55:36.780 Now, some of them have expressed regrets after the fact and said they regret.

00:55:41.680 I imagine why.

00:55:43.920 You know, I wonder why with all of the media backlash that they faced and the personal attacks and threats, I don't buy into that.

00:55:53.660 I mean, they made the decision.

00:55:55.460 They didn't know Casey.

00:55:56.600 They're not friends of Casey.

00:55:57.720 They had every reason in the world, given what they were exposed to prior to the trial, to convict her.

00:56:02.820 So to come back and say that later on after the fact, it's ridiculous.

00:56:09.120 And I'm not referring to the jury.

00:56:12.060 I understand their reasoning behind it, especially after the public backlash.

00:56:16.260 But to post that up as if it means something, it really doesn't in my book.

00:56:22.560 And if someone wants to play stock in that, you're free to do so.

00:56:27.080 So let me ask you, I had Marsha Clark on this show recently, and I know you you're aware that she's made allegations about what was on the computer and you you you made allegations about what was on the computer in your book.

00:56:39.760 And then she took up those allegations and did a deeper dive in the long and the short of it.

00:56:44.420 Correct me if I'm misstating what happened here.

00:56:47.040 But you you wrote in your book that one of the search engines that was on the family computer showed a search the day that Kaylee went missing or died for foolproof suffocation and that you you posited in the book that that that time of day was 150 and that George was the only one home at the house at that time.

00:57:09.460 George is the only one who could have done that search.

00:57:11.140 Foolproof suffocation.

00:57:12.080 I think your your position was he may have been looking to kill himself out of guilt over having hurt Kaylee.

00:57:19.580 Then she did a piece on a special she did on A&E saying there was a glitch in the software and your timing was off.

00:57:26.580 It wasn't 150.

00:57:27.460 It was 250.

00:57:28.500 And George was at work by 3 p.m. that day.

00:57:30.660 And then there is a there is a reporter included in this documentary who says we went and we subpoenaed because Florida's really open with all of its evidence in these criminal trials.

00:57:42.740 We subpoenaed her cell phone records and we could show that Casey Anthony was at home.

00:57:48.080 Pretty much all day.

00:57:49.340 She did not leave early in the day.

00:57:50.680 She was 100 percent there at 3 p.m.

00:57:52.640 and beyond, and we can prove it because her cell phone was there.

00:57:56.100 So she was at home when that search was done.

00:57:58.620 George was at work within nine minutes of that search being done.

00:58:01.720 And the evidence suggests that it was Casey Anthony who searched foolproof suffocation, not George Anthony.

00:58:08.180 How do you respond to that?

00:58:10.140 I don't.

00:58:11.220 I don't need to.

00:58:13.860 Again, you're asking me about something that occurred 11 years ago, specific pieces of evidence that occurred 11 years ago.

00:58:22.220 Well, I saw you issued a response to Marsha Clark.

00:58:24.400 Let me finish my answer if I can.

00:58:25.920 Yeah, I'm just saying you recently commented on this.

00:58:28.640 Well, no, I didn't.

00:58:30.060 Let me let me let me clarify what I'm willing to comment.

00:58:33.600 And as far as I'm willing to go.

00:58:36.460 I'm aware of what reporters had in their position.

00:58:40.240 I had the only mirror screened copy of the hard drive along with law enforcement.

00:58:47.940 Law enforcement never made that claim.

00:58:50.380 Neither neither did I.

00:58:51.740 I was certain based on the evidence that I had from my experts, not a blogger, which the media used.

00:59:00.400 Both Tony Pipitone, who was the reporter, and Marsha Clark utilized the same person who looked, who dabbled in computers.

00:59:08.620 Wasn't a real forensic expert.

00:59:10.560 But yet it's being painted out in the world as if it had some real credibility.

00:59:15.880 I was I lived this case 11 years ago.

00:59:19.340 And I can tell you, we did an incredibly thorough job.

00:59:22.080 We did, in fact, just as thorough a job as law enforcement did, if not better.

00:59:27.740 And I had that evidence ready to go and ready because I believed it favored Casey.

00:59:36.260 And that is let me let me finish.

00:59:39.080 That is just one of many things that we had in our possession that we were willing and able to use should we have decided to use it.

00:59:50.080 But you've got to understand.

00:59:51.300 And when you defend a criminal case, you don't have to prove anything.

00:59:55.920 It's the other way around.

00:59:57.280 It's not really it's not really an adversarial system the way it's painted out.

01:00:01.400 So given that, we I didn't feel I needed to.

01:00:05.680 So and it's and that's the same thing with all of my cases.

01:00:09.560 If I have evidence, nobody's asking you why you didn't raise this at trial.

01:00:14.020 That's not what I asked you.

01:00:15.520 I said, how do you respond?

01:00:17.780 Your question, which was essentially first you said, no, I don't remember what happened all this time later.

01:00:22.840 And then I pointed out that you actually did.

01:00:24.520 You raised it in your book.

01:00:25.500 Marsha Clark called you out and then you felt the need to respond to her.

01:00:28.600 And I'm just asking you if you'd like to respond here, since I had her on the show saying the similar things.

01:00:32.860 And your response is it's it's not an adversarial system.

01:00:35.840 It wasn't my obligation to submit this evidence.

01:00:37.760 That's a dodge.

01:00:39.340 That's a dodge.

01:00:39.960 I'll be as clear as possible.

01:00:43.180 Marsha Clark doesn't know what she's talking about.

01:00:45.340 She wasn't involved in the case.

01:00:46.520 She didn't have the hard drive.

01:00:47.580 She didn't utilize a real expert.

01:00:50.420 She utilized a blogger.

01:00:52.080 And and I questioned the credibility of of what was actually laid out there based on what I had.

01:01:02.400 And and given all of the evidence, this is my opinion of what this evidence shows.

01:01:07.220 And I believe theirs was incorrect.

01:01:09.640 And I had the only copy.

01:01:12.920 And it's that simple.

01:01:15.580 I mean, I had the legitimate copy that followed the chain of custody.

01:01:21.060 What occurs after something loses its chain of custody can be highly manipulated when it comes to evidence.

01:01:28.140 And I don't ever believe any of it if it if it falls outside of the chain of custody.

01:01:33.700 So having said all of that, I just my my plain answer to that is that, one, it was 11 years ago.

01:01:45.340 So the specifics of which I don't choose to get into.

01:01:49.400 But two, and most importantly, I had the only piece of evidence along with law enforcement that that followed the chain of custody that I could say this evidence was potentially not tainted at the time.

01:02:02.920 And I find I put more credibility in that than I do what a blogger did with some of the other potential version that I have no idea about.

01:02:15.360 So, OK, got it.

01:02:17.600 And I got it.

01:02:18.960 I got it. Let's move on.

01:02:19.660 Let's we spent enough time on this.

01:02:21.220 All right. Well, let me let me just say it's dragging.

01:02:24.360 I get it. Let's move on.

01:02:25.560 I want to get to your other cases.

01:02:26.960 I know you'd like to discuss.

01:02:28.060 No, it's not right.

01:02:28.640 You're criticizing me.

01:02:29.980 And I said dragging, dragging, dragging.

01:02:32.700 Not bragging attention.

01:02:34.620 And just trust me.

01:02:35.220 I know when the discussion is run out of energy and we're there.

01:02:38.480 Look, I can't help it if you don't like the answers I'm giving you.

01:02:41.280 I mean, I'm really sorry for that.

01:02:43.140 I know you.

01:02:43.760 Listen, you're dodging and I'm pinning you down and you're and you're you're repeating your points, which does not help you.

01:02:50.180 It undermines you.

01:02:51.460 I'm ready to move on.

01:02:53.100 What else would you like to add that's going to bolster your point?

01:02:56.700 You go ahead.

01:02:57.360 You go ahead.

01:02:57.900 Yes.

01:02:58.260 Trust me.

01:02:58.840 We've this is a dead cat.

01:03:00.680 Let's move on.

01:03:01.200 Um, I want to ask you if you believe her claim now that all the lying she told, all the lying she did was as a result of trauma, that she declined to say to the police, George did it.

01:03:16.580 My my father hurt my baby.

01:03:18.860 He killed my baby because she'd been sexually abused and that the entire time she was partying for those 31 days.

01:03:26.000 She had no idea the baby was dead and that she was being told that she's now claiming by her father just to keep quiet.

01:03:33.260 Keep quiet.

01:03:33.780 Kaylee's alive.

01:03:34.580 Trust me.

01:03:34.960 Trust me.

01:03:35.280 Trust me.

01:03:35.880 Do you believe that this doesn't require you to reveal attorney client privilege information?

01:03:39.560 It's just a question about whether you believe that claim.

01:03:42.580 Well, I think it's an improper question to ask me.

01:03:45.240 Number one, it's not my job to judge clients.

01:03:48.860 It's something I never do because that's not what I would want from my lawyer should I hire one.

01:03:54.400 So why would I be the type of lawyer that would go out and make judgment calls after a case is over?

01:04:01.040 I look, I love the practice of law.

01:04:04.560 I think it's it's incredibly important.

01:04:07.120 It's one of the most honorable professions available to anyone to undertake.

01:04:13.440 But one of the main things that you do not do, and I even try to practice this as a person, is not be so judgmental of people.

01:04:20.960 And, you know, we're all better than our worst mistakes.

01:04:26.880 And I and I think that there's a certain human dignity that each and every person has.

01:04:31.860 And I really try to live my life in a way that I try my best day in and day out not to pass judgment on others.

01:04:38.740 It's something I wish a lot more people employed, but for some reason they don't.

01:04:44.520 That's that's on them.

01:04:45.380 So I don't disagree with that when it comes to a moral failing, a genuine mistake.

01:04:51.100 When it comes to murdering your three year old, I feel differently.

01:04:54.000 I'm going to judge.

01:04:55.120 Well, I think we're all going to judge.

01:04:56.560 Again, you're assuming that she murdered someone.

01:04:59.600 There were 12 very important people that you didn't that.

01:05:04.300 No, I did.

01:05:04.900 I actually heard I watched the case and I followed you very closely.

01:05:08.740 There's a lot that that happens in a courtroom that you don't see on TV.

01:05:12.880 In fact, that's a big aspect.

01:05:15.700 That's true.

01:05:16.540 But I also practiced law for 10 years and I understand how how lawyers manipulate juries.

01:05:22.500 And I'm not saying you did anything wrong, but are you saying you were very skilled when you were a lawyer?

01:05:28.240 I'm saying I know it when I see it.

01:05:30.060 No, I was a very talented trial lawyer and appellate lawyer and I won most of my cases and I saw how you won this case.

01:05:36.540 And I'm not saying there was anything untoward about hold on, Jose.

01:05:40.560 Hold on.

01:05:41.300 I'm not saying there was anything untoward about the way you handled the case.

01:05:45.020 I'm saying I didn't believe you for one second and I don't believe your client and my legal practice has led me and most other attorneys and citizens in this country to think that she got off because of your skill, not because she's innocent, which is the word she uses to describe herself now that I was proven innocent, which is bullshit.

01:06:05.680 That's not exact. That's not what happened at all.

01:06:09.120 Well, I disagree with you.

01:06:11.960 I think you are certainly a very judgmental person and you're free to be that when it comes to murdering three year olds.

01:06:19.300 I am, you know, you know, well, you're limiting into that, but I'm sure you judge every day and a lot of the things you say as it relates to your profession.

01:06:29.840 And that's that's your job to to to do what you do.

01:06:34.060 So I'm not going to sit there and attack you on that, but I'm not familiar with your work in the courtroom, so I really can't comment on that or place any real stock into it.

01:06:44.060 But having said that, I can tell you this, every single thing that we did in that trial and everything that we do in every subsequent trial is is held up to the highest ethical standards that I am and that I ensure that my entire team follows.

01:07:00.900 No one is suggesting otherwise.

01:07:02.740 I don't know what else to say.

01:07:04.440 You're defending a claim that hasn't been made about you, which says something.

01:07:09.260 I'll have to think about what I don't think it says anything.

01:07:11.440 I think you're just reading into it as much as you can.

01:07:14.560 But, hey, I'll let my audience decide.

01:07:17.440 I'll let my audience decide.

01:07:18.440 It's up to them.

01:07:19.240 Let's move on.

01:07:20.260 Let's talk about Aaron Hernandez.

01:07:22.120 So that's another case that made national headlines that you got pulled into.

01:07:26.600 And I confess, I didn't remember the number of people that Aaron Hernandez was accused of murdering.

01:07:34.200 The story was sensational because he was a huge NFL football player.

01:07:39.360 He was on the Patriots.

01:07:40.840 I think at the same time, a young Tom Brady was on the Patriots.

01:07:45.160 He was a tight end, I think, and was the star, was making several million dollars a year and then got accused of killing somebody.

01:07:54.320 And you came in to represent him on that, but then got accused of killing like a bunch of other people.

01:07:58.520 And then there were intimations that maybe the list was even longer than what had been brought in court.

01:08:03.420 And just bring us back to what you got brought in to defend him.

01:08:07.900 Because as I recall, you won your case, but he was convicted in another case of murder.

01:08:14.520 Yes, it's a bit confusing because he was initially tried for the Oden Lloyd case, which was a case that I didn't represent him on.

01:08:30.000 He had other lawyers that his agent connected him with, and he was convicted of that case.

01:08:37.800 Actually, while that was going on, the investigator on an unsolved crime had remembered that he, in looking at the videotapes of a case that he had investigated previously,

01:08:58.320 remembered that Aaron Hernandez was in the nightclub where these two gentlemen were shot.

01:09:03.120 And then they kind of put together a case against Aaron based on that video.

01:09:09.700 And the gentleman that he was with ran into some trouble, and they flipped him to be a witness for the prosecution in exchange for a deal.

01:09:21.740 And that was pretty much the case that I represented Aaron on, which was an alleged double homicide that occurred that was really, I think, quite embarrassing for the prosecutors to have brought forward in the first place based on the evidence that they had.

01:09:42.100 So that's the setup of the case.

01:10:12.100 That was our biggest challenge at that time.

01:10:14.500 Oh, my goodness.

01:10:16.020 To me, it's just so amazing because from the outside, you see this person who achieved so much success in his professional career and then the implosion in such violent ways.

01:10:29.180 And then he died in prison.

01:10:31.060 They said he took his life, his own life.

01:10:33.780 I seem to remember you cast some doubt on that.

01:10:36.780 I don't know whether you accept that or you don't accept that.

01:10:39.140 But, I mean, he died in prison.

01:10:41.420 And it's just the end of such a promising career, such a promising life.

01:10:44.900 I don't what do you think of him now?

01:10:46.340 Like when you look back on the story of Aaron Hernandez, what do you think?

01:10:49.160 Aaron Hernandez, I think it's a sad case.

01:10:53.380 It's, well, they're all sad and they're all terrible.

01:10:56.180 And Aaron's is especially difficult for me because of the whole rollercoaster ride of emotions that we had to go through in that case.

01:11:08.340 It's so many things you don't learn in law school and you also don't learn and experience until you experience it.

01:11:16.960 And I just feel so terrible for everyone involved in that case.

01:11:22.980 He was a unique young man that I grew quite fond of as I was representing him.

01:11:31.880 And a lot of the things that were said about him were completely untrue.

01:11:40.620 And a lot of the stuff that was said about him, he brought upon himself.

01:11:44.380 So I just, you know, the whole case is terrible.

01:11:49.720 And one of the things I hope we learn from that case is that football is an incredibly violent sport.

01:11:56.880 And CTE is a real brain disease that can affect people in many ways.

01:12:03.740 And I want to be clear.

01:12:04.420 I've never said that I believe CTE was a mitigating factor or the reason for any of the murders.

01:12:11.640 I know for a fact that the evidence showed in every speck of evidence that I read and looked at in that Boston case that I represented him and showed he was innocent.

01:12:22.800 I did not represent him in the Odin Lloyd case, although even that one has some questions.

01:12:30.760 But all in all, I wish Aaron, you know, I hope that we can learn something from Aaron's case.

01:12:41.260 And I am very close to his ex-fiancee and his child.

01:12:49.200 I want nothing but them to be able to move on and live a happy life, as well as the families of the two young men who passed in that case.

01:13:01.840 They were an incredible family.

01:13:03.420 And it's good that the family had the testing on the CTE because you can only confirm CTE by dissecting a brain.

01:13:12.500 And obviously, that means the person will have had to have passed.

01:13:16.380 And so more and more, we're seeing athletes or their athletes' families say you can do that, you know, that they're donating their brains.

01:13:21.900 I interviewed Abby Wambach, the famous soccer player, and she said she agreed to donate her brain.

01:13:28.500 I mean, it's just such a thing for these athletes to think about.

01:13:30.580 But we need to understand more about CTE, as you point out, not not blaming the murders on that, but just yet another case of it by somebody who played at the top level.

01:13:39.260 Let me ask about Harvey Weinstein.

01:13:40.620 Not him in particular.

01:13:41.840 He's a whatever.

01:13:42.920 But I think it's fascinating.

01:13:44.700 You were were you partners with Ron Sullivan, the Harvard?

01:13:49.400 The guy who was a dean at Harvard.

01:13:51.020 You guys were partners in representing Harvard.

01:13:53.180 What kind of bullshit was it that Ronald Sullivan took at Harvard for representing Harvey Weinstein?

01:13:59.840 It was so wrong what was done to him.

01:14:03.520 Ronald Sullivan is not just an amazing lawyer.

01:14:06.780 He's my friend.

01:14:08.140 So and he's my friend for multiple reasons.

01:14:12.040 And one of them, which is because he's an incredibly good human being and he cares about his students.

01:14:19.440 He's he's an incredible teacher and he's an example and he's an example for all people of color to look up to, because this is an incredibly brilliant man with a brilliant legal mind and who has a kind heart.

01:14:36.820 And for them to have done what they did to him at Harvard was truly sad, truly sad.

01:14:43.680 And I remember the whole situation and when it was happening and and I felt terrible for Ron because I could go through something like that.

01:14:55.280 As you see, even today, I get people want to tie me into some of my cases or or my clients.

01:15:04.340 But the fact that he is a professor at Harvard law makes it incredibly difficult because he's beholden to the university and to his students and the fact that the students couldn't see it in their mind that this is what a lawyer does.

01:15:20.000 And this is what makes our system of justice work.

01:15:23.860 It's it's it's a it's a truly sad situation, especially for Harvard.

01:15:29.600 It's it's a black eye on on on Harvard's history.

01:15:33.500 And it's something that they should not be right off the hook on.

01:15:36.440 What had he lost his he was a dean of like a student housing or students.

01:15:40.560 And I think he lost that position.

01:15:42.200 Was he fired entirely or did you just lose the dean?

01:15:44.620 No, no.

01:15:45.060 He was removed as he was basically the faculty dean for a house, as they as they call it in at Harvard, which is the dorm that if you think Harry Potter, you think, you know how they had Slytherin, their houses, the schools.

01:16:03.640 That's pretty much what what he was the the house dean for.

01:16:09.100 And they removed them from that because I guess some of the students alleged that they didn't feel safe or comfortable taking issues related to potential sexual violence to a man who would defend someone such as Harvey Weinstein.

01:16:29.780 And it just it just it just created a very terrible situation for him and his family.

01:16:37.160 He's a family man with two beautiful children and and such a big part of that community at Harvard and really an inspiration to all of its students.

01:16:47.900 And well, apparently not all, but, you know, to a good number of students.

01:16:53.420 And I'm I'm still terribly unsettled by that whole thing.

01:16:59.120 It's me, too.

01:17:00.140 It's just so like, what do they think criminal defense attorneys do?

01:17:03.180 Like you just wait until the next perfect angel comes along.

01:17:07.060 Like the nature of the business is you're going to represent some, you know, some good guys.

01:17:12.600 They need to stop teaching criminal law, constitutional law and criminal procedure over at Harvard Law because it's not allowed.

01:17:18.660 Wait, say that again.

01:17:21.640 I miss I miss I said they need to stop teaching criminal law, constitutional law and criminal procedure, because apparently over there it's not allowed.

01:17:28.820 Yeah, it's absurd.

01:17:32.100 Not not only the perfect angels find themselves in criminal trouble.

01:17:35.180 So it's just either you defend the system, you believe in the system, you believe in a strong criminal defense or you don't.

01:17:41.760 And the system is so stacked in favor of the prosecution.

01:17:44.720 You must believe in a strong criminal defense, even if you don't like the guy or the gal being tried.

01:17:50.320 All right.

01:17:50.480 And that leads me to the last thing I want to ask you about, which is this Dr.

01:17:53.200 William Husserl.

01:17:55.580 Now, was I Husserl?

01:17:57.640 Husserl.

01:17:58.560 Husserl.

01:17:58.920 OK, Husserl.

01:17:59.540 I only ever read about it.

01:18:01.320 I never heard it pronounced.

01:18:02.560 So this is a victory that you obtained this year when he was acquitted, found not guilty on 14 counts of murder, murder, not this.

01:18:12.920 It wasn't like a civil case for malpractice.

01:18:15.880 Young guy, like 47, something like that, accused of murdering people because they said he was giving them unusually high doses of fentanyl,

01:18:25.980 something allegedly they said 10 times as much fentanyl as would be the normal standard dose in end of life care.

01:18:35.160 People who are in the ICU.

01:18:37.340 Is that the basic allegation?

01:18:38.780 Like, were they saying you're a Kevorkian and we know your heart's in the right place, but that's murder?

01:18:43.160 Or were they saying you're like some sick serial killer who takes joy in killing people and you're targeting, you know, sick people in the ICU?

01:18:52.640 You know, it's closer to the second example you gave, which was their theory.

01:18:57.360 The reality is this was my this is the most important case of my career.

01:19:02.240 And having that really does say a lot, given the broad range of cases that I've that I've been involved in.

01:19:09.060 But I could tell you this much.

01:19:11.780 This case gave me so much anxiety and so much fear of losing it that that I really had to check myself multiple times.

01:19:21.780 The allegations were that he gave he intentionally tried to hasten their death by giving them too much pain medication.

01:19:31.540 And essentially what we were discussing throughout the trial is end of life care.

01:19:35.920 When you die, it's not always pretty.

01:19:39.580 And in the ICU, there is this thing called a bad death.

01:19:44.940 And that is when patients who are actively in the dying process.

01:19:50.020 And this is when you have minutes to hours left in life and you're suffering because your body is breaking down.

01:19:58.940 The anxiety of your impending death, the fact that you can't breathe and that you are suffocating to death.

01:20:08.140 Everyone knows the fear of drowning or suffocating is by far the scariest way of dying.

01:20:18.140 And they oftentimes doctors are given the discretion to the to decide how much pain meds should a patient give.

01:20:28.140 His dose amounts were higher than normal, but he was a brilliant doctor trained at the Cleveland Clinic.

01:20:36.500 And none of the cases that he actually was involved in hastened the death of these individuals.

01:20:47.140 All of these people were actively dying and many of which he had previously saved and brought back to life.

01:20:54.360 They had died and he gave them CPR and brought them back to life and did numerous lifesaving measures only to kill them.

01:21:02.160 And maybe 30 minutes later, according to the prosecutor, it was a scary case in the fact that I think it would have had a chilling effect on all doctors at end of life care where we could have had suffering throughout the United States because of fear that they might be charged with a potential murder case.

01:21:24.140 And it truly was a unique experience.

01:21:27.440 Now, all of my other cases brought me eventually to this case, and it's one of those examples where it's clear to most people that a defense lawyer is often in the times where you can actually make a difference in life and not only in one person's life, but in multiple people who may suddenly find themselves in a similar situation.

01:21:55.680 So it truly is.

01:21:58.600 When I look back at my career, there are two cases that really stand out.

01:22:02.260 This is the one that stands out the most.

01:22:05.760 And it's the one that I'm most proud of my team for being incredibly tough and working these late long hours to get the acquittal.

01:22:15.880 And it was 25 counts of murder.

01:22:17.480 We were able to get 11 of them dropped before the trial.

01:22:22.680 And then the remaining 14, we got a full acquittal lot.

01:22:28.640 Is the other case Casey Anthony?

01:22:32.500 Actually, no.

01:22:33.420 The other case had to do with a veteran named Gabriel Brown.

01:22:38.980 It was, I don't know if you want me to explain it.

01:22:44.400 Yeah, sure.

01:22:45.020 Gabriel Brown was a veteran five times, five tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, and then after which went to work for Blackwater.

01:22:56.420 He was a career soldier from 18 years old until his 40s.

01:23:00.480 And he had severe post-traumatic stress disorder and an addiction to adrenaline.

01:23:08.220 So when he came back and he was released into society, he never got any counseling or anything like that.

01:23:15.420 And went on a gambling binge to try and fulfill that addiction to adrenaline that he had.

01:23:25.940 He tried everything, drugs, gambling, and then eventually found it and started satisfying it with armed robberies.

01:23:36.040 And went on an armed robbery spree of committing like 10 in two weeks.

01:23:41.920 And the reality was, it wasn't the money.

01:23:45.840 It was the addiction to the adrenaline that he needed.

01:23:49.840 His body needed.

01:23:50.880 He needed psychologically.

01:23:53.020 And it was the very first time when I got the case, he had already confessed.

01:23:56.660 And he pled guilty, and I handled his sentencing.

01:24:00.620 But it was the first time we had the opportunity to use adrenaline addiction as a mitigation for potential sentencing.

01:24:09.300 And what was unique about it was, you know, the prosecutor wanted life, and we argued for some type of counseling and treatment.

01:24:19.380 And the judge, after seeing all of the lives he saved in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the people, and how committed he was to his country and serving his country, gave him three years and additional counseling.

01:24:36.680 And I can honestly say, I can say this, I'm still in touch with Gabriel Brown's family, and I'm glad to hear he's flourishing out in the outside, and he's doing incredibly well.

01:24:48.860 His son, who was just a little boy at the time, is now entering the Army.

01:24:55.260 It was a moment in the courtroom.

01:24:57.920 I don't really cry often.

01:24:59.700 But when he stood up to address the court at his sentencing, in full attention, with his chest popped out like a soldier and apologized to the court and everyone, and how ashamed he was of his behavior, and how much he loved his country.

01:25:19.220 And when he said that, he broke, his voice cracked.

01:25:23.060 And it was truly a moment.

01:25:24.800 It was truly a moment to see how someone had given their entire life themselves to their country, where we just don't identify with that at all.

01:25:34.880 And where bombs are going off on a regular basis, bullets are flying by your head, and when you survive that rush, that chemical reaction that you get, it can get addicting.

01:25:50.160 And for now, since that case, soldiers have the opportunity to utilize that as a mitigation factor for sentencing.

01:25:59.000 Again, it's those cases that get to help other people, not just the ones you're representing, that truly make this profession a unique calling.

01:26:08.100 And I am touched forever by Gabriel Brown and the service that he gave to our country and to the freedoms that myself and my family enjoys every day, and I never take it for granted.

01:26:26.660 So that's the thing about criminal law.

01:26:30.380 You know, you can, if you're a prosecutor, you sleep at night knowing you've put, you know, lots of bad guys away and made society safer.

01:26:37.440 That's the hope.

01:26:38.940 If you're a criminal defense attorney, you get moments like that, you know, or you keep an innocent person out of jail and you think, you know, yes, this is, or you've just tested the system and made sure that it doesn't railroad people unfairly.

01:26:50.340 You know, my, my, one of the reasons I left the law is because unlike you, I, I did a little criminal law, but for the most part, I was in corporate litigation, which I have to tell you, Jose does not provide a lot of those moments, you know, like it's big business.

01:27:03.640 I mean, it pays the bills.

01:27:05.440 You don't get particularly rich necessarily going into criminal law.

01:27:08.420 It pays the bills in corporate litigation, but it all felt like such paper pushing and defending big faceless corporations.

01:27:15.000 And it's no wonder so many people leave like I did, as opposed to somebody like you who stays in it lifelong because it doesn't have, it doesn't press the same moral buttons.

01:27:25.800 Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about.

01:27:27.760 I'm general counsel for a couple of major corporations and, and where I manage their litigation.

01:27:34.860 But the reality is it's, it's harder to touch the individuals that way when you're dealing in business.

01:27:42.080 And, but, but like I said, you know, I get, I've got into this business for two reasons.

01:27:48.540 One, because not everyone who, who gets arrested is guilty and two, those who did make mistakes sometimes should not pay for it for the rest of their life.

01:28:00.880 And Gabriel Brown is a perfect example of that.

01:28:03.400 Here's a man who accepted responsibility for what he did, but there were reasons behind it that one can understand.

01:28:11.360 He didn't harm anyone during those robberies.

01:28:14.100 He put people in danger and he was incredibly sorry for that, but he sacrificed so much for our country and for our system of justice to turn their back on him and other veterans is, is shameful.

01:28:32.420 And I have to tell you, based on the work I've done over the years, veterans have really paid dearly in our system of justice because we put them in a position of kill, kill, kill, violence, violence, violence.

01:28:47.580 And then when we were done with them, we say, thank you for your service.

01:28:52.480 And that's the end of it.

01:28:53.780 They don't get integrated back into society after we've already brainwashed them through bootcamp and through the system of the chain of command and the violence that we asked them to, to utilize.

01:29:08.020 And there's nobody goes and checks up on them.

01:29:10.340 Nobody cares anymore.

01:29:11.180 We had on Dakota Meyer Medal of Honor recipient, Dakota Meyer, and he talked about a similar journey he had when he kept, when he got back to the States, culminating in a moment where he tried to take his own life.

01:29:23.060 He, he, he actually fired the gun and, but thank God some angel had taken the bullets out because they had seen him deteriorating.

01:29:29.660 But I mean, this is what we do to our vets.

01:29:31.780 You're right.

01:29:32.180 There's no, uh, on ramp back into civilized society for these guys.

01:29:38.320 They're just expected to be able to turn it off and that endangers them and endangers the community.

01:29:43.800 And it's just, it's unfair.

01:29:45.520 It's, it's wrong.

01:29:47.480 So anyway, I thank you for calling attention to it here and for helping these guys who wind up taking it too far.

01:29:53.660 I appreciate the broad ranging discussion and, uh, you tense at times, but interesting and always spicy.

01:30:01.700 Jose, it's great to talk to you.

01:30:03.620 Well, I've been to call it a lot of things, but, uh, I'll take spicy any day.

01:30:09.400 All the best.

01:30:10.200 I hope I can see you again.

01:30:11.940 Thank you.

01:30:12.780 Take care.

01:30:13.420 See you.

01:30:16.180 Want to get in a couple of questions from our mailbag.

01:30:18.600 You can email me at Megan, M E G Y N at Megan Kelly.com.

01:30:24.180 I love this one.

01:30:25.340 Okay.

01:30:25.480 This is from Joe about Shadi Hamid who came on the other day.

01:30:29.700 We talked about Trump.

01:30:30.740 We talked about democracy and he talked about how the night Trump won in 16, he cried, but his dad, an immigrant set him straight on how democracy works and how people had been heard.

01:30:43.100 And that was a good thing and about how you'd have another chance four years later, you know, to change the outcome.

01:30:49.600 Uh, Joe writes into the show.

01:30:50.880 I loved this interview, especially when he spoke about his father's wisdom on the night Trump got elected.

01:30:56.080 When Shadi talked about getting another bite at the apple in four years, I thought that was a perspective that could only be brought to the U S by immigrants coming from oppressive environments.

01:31:04.840 And it should be amplified.

01:31:06.980 Thank you for that.

01:31:07.820 Joe Adam writes in, uh, I am a true conservative and I greatly appreciate it when you have guests like Shadi and Ryan Grim on to give me the opportunity to question my opinions and expand my horizons.

01:31:19.860 Thank you for that.

01:31:20.500 This is, um, I hope you notice one of the only shows out there.

01:31:23.920 It's certainly one of the only podcasts that has people from the left and the right come on regularly because we want to make sure nobody manipulates your brain, right?

01:31:30.660 And it makes you think just like a conservative or just like a liberal.

01:31:33.760 We're not trying to do that here.

01:31:35.140 We're trying to expose you to different points of view and opinions.

01:31:38.220 Um, here's another one.

01:31:40.180 Oh, here's a nice, this is a sweet one from Laura.

01:31:42.260 Same thing.

01:31:42.880 Loved your conversation with Shadi, listening to him speak.

01:31:45.380 I couldn't help but think of Jesus's words in Matthew five, nine, blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God.

01:31:53.500 We need a million more voices like his.

01:31:55.380 And can I tell you something?

01:31:56.100 You know who else loved the Shadi interview?

01:31:57.800 Uh, Doug Brunt, my husband.

01:31:59.280 And he was, it was one of the first ones he came home and he was like, I love that guy.

01:32:02.900 That was a great interview and really enjoyed it.

01:32:04.420 So if you haven't seen it, uh, what episode was that Steve?

01:32:06.980 It was last week, but I don't remember the episode number for the people.

01:32:09.960 He's going to go check it out.

01:32:13.100 He's going to find it.

01:32:14.160 Another comment here from, uh, Amy.

01:32:16.460 We talked about how, uh, with Clay Travis, they're going to crack down on sports teams even more now.

01:32:20.780 It's like not enough to get rid of the Cleveland Indians, uh, or the Washington Redskins.

01:32:24.980 It's going to, I joked soon they're going to be coming after the Syracuse orange.

01:32:28.120 They're going to decide orange is somehow offensive.

01:32:30.220 And Amy writes in, uh, heard that discussion.

01:32:33.340 Um, she says, uh, about coming for the orange right before I started at Syracuse, the chancellor

01:32:38.300 actually did come for it.

01:32:39.700 It used to be the orange men.

01:32:41.180 She thought the men was offensive and removed it.

01:32:44.060 You know what?

01:32:44.920 That really did happen.

01:32:46.340 I remember that.

01:32:47.400 Um, orange men was.

01:32:48.820 How long can the Cleveland Browns last?

01:32:52.780 I don't know.

01:32:53.820 What is it?

01:32:54.580 Episode what?

01:32:55.640 It was just Monday.

01:32:56.440 My God.

01:32:57.640 What's today?

01:32:59.020 Is today?

01:33:00.320 Today's Wednesday?

01:33:01.180 No, it's today's Thursday.

01:33:03.220 Today's Thursday.

01:33:04.720 Um, episode four, four, two.

01:33:07.620 Okay.

01:33:07.800 So you can, you can hear Shaddy for yourself.

01:33:09.520 What Doug and Joe and Adam and Laura love so much at episode four, four, two.

01:33:13.740 Um, listen, love today's exchange.

01:33:16.440 Would love to know what you guys think.

01:33:17.700 You can email me and get in the mailbag at Megan at Megan Kelly.com.

01:33:22.180 And, uh, we'll try to get your calls in tomorrow.

01:33:24.420 Wanted to make sure we got some of our written submissions in because if people take the time,

01:33:27.460 they write in, we appreciate it.

01:33:29.040 And you can subscribe again at Megan Kelly.com for the American news minute.

01:33:34.020 If you want to see all the hot hits of the week and also just get all the news of the

01:33:38.560 week in 60 seconds or less.

01:33:41.040 I mean, we've had the audience time us over and over and we nail it.

01:33:46.160 So you don't have to go perusing the internet internet to find out what you're going to talk

01:33:50.000 about at your weekend cocktail parties or football games.

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01:33:59.600 Uh, check it out.

01:34:00.900 Megan Kelly.com.

01:34:01.740 Thanks for joining us tomorrow.

01:34:02.860 Dan Wooten will be here.

01:34:04.520 Don't forget to check that out.

01:34:06.900 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show.

01:34:08.840 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - December 01, 2022

Explosive New Casey Anthony Allegations, and Importance of Defense Attorneys, with Jose Baez and Vinnie Politan ｜ Ep. 445

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