The Megyn Kelly Show - Fetterman Hospitalized, Hunter Hearing, and Murdaugh Fireworks, with Rich Lowry, Miranda Devine, Vinnie Politan, and More ｜ Ep. 490

00:00:00.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:12.000 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.320 Later this episode, we're going to bring you the latest on the Murdoch trial.

00:00:18.000 Oh my goodness, there was some amazing testimony this week before the whole thing got shut down thanks to a bomb threat.

00:00:24.780 I wonder who called that in. Who would have reason to shut down this trial, which is going so well for Alec Murdoch?

00:00:33.360 We're going to have our star panel back that we had earlier on this case that everybody loved with the latest on that

00:00:39.760 and the latest on the fact that the civil lawsuit against Alec Baldwin in connection with that Rust shooting just got filed again.

00:00:50.700 Remember the family of Helena Hutchins sued him and then they settled?

00:00:55.280 And then they cut a deal for the widower to be an executive producer of the production, which they said was going to start back up.

00:01:00.780 Well, guess what?

00:01:02.780 Now, I don't know if that's off or what, but he's retained Gloria Allred and they've filed another lawsuit.

00:01:09.580 All right, so we'll get into all that.

00:01:10.960 Then we're going to have a conversation with Miranda Devine on the Hunter Biden laptop Twitter hearing yesterday.

00:01:15.220 So much good sound to bring you from that.

00:01:16.780 But we are beginning with the news that Senator John Fetterman has been hospitalized to discuss this breaking news.

00:01:24.460 We have cardiologist Dr. Anish Koka and our friend Rich Lowry from National Review.

00:01:29.780 Guys, thank you so much for being here.

00:01:31.640 So, Doc, the latest news we got is that he was hospitalized overnight and that his team is saying that the initial review did not show evidence of a new stroke,

00:01:45.740 but doctors are running more tests and this is yesterday evening and that he's remaining overnight for observations that he was in good spirits and talking with his staff.

00:01:54.240 But we really don't know much more than that about the 53 year old who, as viewers and listeners may recall, suffered a stroke on May 13th, 2022, four days before the Democratic primary.

00:02:06.740 So what concerns come to mind as you hear this news?

00:02:11.140 Yeah, I mean, thanks for having me, Megan.

00:02:14.080 You know, when you have somebody like Mr. Fetterman have lightheadedness, you know, it's important to remember, put it in context.

00:02:22.040 It's not like, you know, having, you know, a 25 year old man who has no medical history having lightheadedness.

00:02:28.380 This is, you know, a 50 some year old man who, you know, really unfortunately had a stroke.

00:02:34.500 And then, and then, you know, it was a more, it wasn't just a, and that's complicated enough.

00:02:39.100 But on top of that, it was discovered at the time, I think we found out a few days later that he had, he has a weak heart muscle.

00:02:46.760 So he has, he has heart failure.

00:02:49.020 On top of that, he has a defibrillator.

00:02:51.500 A defibrillator is a device that is implanted in the, in the body by cardiologists that kind of sits there and it's like a computer that's constantly monitoring the heart rhythm.

00:03:02.040 And if there's a bad heart rhythm that's noted, the device gets activated to try to save your life.

00:03:06.260 So the diagnostic possibilities in terms of somebody who's 50 some years old, who has a history of a stroke, who has heart failure, who has a defibrillator, who has lightheadedness is, is obviously, you know, there's some severe possibilities there.

00:03:20.360 But it could be totally benign.

00:03:21.800 It could be that, it could be that he's dehydrated.

00:03:25.320 It could be that the doctors in terms of her managing his heart failure, when they're adding medicines for that, it could be that, you know, those medicines, he could be having some type of a reaction to, and they have to dial back some of those medicines.

00:03:38.220 Or it could be, or it could be things that are, you know, that could be, you know, more concerning, like bad arrhythmias or heart failure that, that, that's progressing.

00:03:48.180 Um, so there's a number of different possibilities.

00:03:50.740 And again, it's, it's really hard with the little pieces that we get from, uh, from the, the Fetterman side of things to kind of figure out where, where, where in that whole gradient, uh, you know, he would be.

00:04:02.900 Well, when you say it could be heart failure progressing, um, I, of course I know absolutely nothing about cardiology in the way you do, but if you have a defibrillator in there, as well as a pacemaker, how does one suffer heart failure?

00:04:17.200 Yeah.

00:04:17.740 Yeah.

00:04:18.320 So, I mean, if you, so defibrillators, it's a common question that's asked.

00:04:22.720 It's a good question.

00:04:23.500 Defibrillators and pacemakers, um, except for one peculiar circumstance where you have a certain conduction problem with the heart and then the pacemaker actually is resynchronizing the heart to make the heart pump better.

00:04:34.740 And, and we don't, we have no idea because we've never actually spoken or heard from the treating, uh, physician who actually put in the device.

00:04:42.280 So we don't even know the details of what exact device is.

00:04:44.980 So defibrillators are complicated.

00:04:46.280 There's a defibrillator that says one lead that sits there and is just sitting there looking to see if you're going to have a bad rhythm and it shocks you or paces you out of that bad rhythm.

00:04:54.460 And then there's one unique case, like I'm talking about where the, uh, uh, a resynchronizing pacemaker can be used to improve your heart function.

00:05:03.020 We don't know any of that, but if he has the general type of defibrillator, which is just a defibrillator that's sitting there waiting to save your life in case you have a very bad rhythm.

00:05:11.300 And you're predisposed to these bad rhythms because your heart muscle is weak, then that defibrillator isn't doing anything to make your heart better per se.

00:05:18.880 So, so, um, so yeah, so again, it's, it's very hard kind of stumbling around in the dark, uh, without knowing any, any of these details.

00:05:26.800 And there's so many details that, you know, as cardiologists, we would, we would love to, love to know.

00:05:31.420 Well, can I ask you about that? Cause you're from Pennsylvania.

00:05:33.800 Um, Pennsylvania guy.

00:05:35.700 Yep.

00:05:36.240 Has it been frustrating for you as a doctor, who's also a citizen of the state of Pennsylvania?

00:05:41.220 The commonwealth of Pennsylvania to not get more information because all we ever got was like a general note from his general practitioner saying he's fit to serve.

00:05:48.720 He never released his medical records.

00:05:51.120 Yeah. I mean, it gets to this whole notion.

00:05:52.560 I never really spent that much time thinking about it, but it does get to this notion of like, well, what exactly is the public supposed to know about the politician you're voting for, um, in terms of how sick you are, you know?

00:06:04.200 And I mean, do we need to know like what exact hypertension medications he's on?

00:06:07.680 I guess probably not, but, but, um, but, you know, after someone suffers such a significant, um, event, um, yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's, it behooves folks to know more about what the prognosis is here.

00:06:23.020 And, uh, uh, you know, more heat and, and in order to know what prognosis is, how well you're going to be able to discharge, you know, what is a very busy or can be a very, very busy stressful job.

00:06:35.360 Um, yeah, it would be really helpful to know, no more details.

00:06:38.300 And, and we just, you know, there just have been details have been so, so difficult to, uh, to kind of, uh, pull out.

00:06:44.840 So yeah, that is, that has been, has been frustrating.

00:06:47.640 Hmm. All right. Stand by Rich.

00:06:49.580 It's interesting to hear, um, you know, the good doctor, a cardiologist talk about how frustrating it is for him to not get the details he would like to, to ascertain whether Fetterman really is fit to serve.

00:07:00.540 And is capable of doing this job. And it was a frustration that a lot of voters and would-be voters had in the run-up to this election.

00:07:07.660 One that we were told over and over again was somehow inappropriate to raise that you were being an ableist if you push too hard for more details.

00:07:17.320 And now the guy was sworn in on January 3rd. It's a month later and he's already had a medical event.

00:07:23.460 He's back in the hospital. And once again, we're getting the stiff arm on details.

00:07:28.040 Yeah. So let's hope it's nothing and let's hope he he's out soon and feeling better, but they've been hiding the ball on this from the beginning.

00:07:37.380 And the fact is it's not unusual. Any politician with a major health issue instantly becomes George Santos, right?

00:07:44.240 You can't believe anything they say. They always hide the ball. And Fetterman was diagnosed with this, uh, heart condition in 2017.

00:07:51.440 We never heard about it. He has the stroke. They're not transparent about it. They're not forthright about it.

00:07:56.380 As you say, they get a general note from a friendly doctor. I would say in their defense, that debate he had with Oz, the one debate is pretty much all you needed to know as a voter to ascertain his condition.

00:08:09.620 And it was not good. You know, he had trouble understanding the questions and expressing himself.

00:08:13.580 And it wasn't just problems with the teleprompter as they tried to spin it afterwards.

00:08:17.340 It has he has genuine problems communicating, which is a huge part of the job of the senator.

00:08:22.940 But Oz managed to lose to him anyway. And a decisive segment of Pennsylvania voters just decided it wasn't important to them.

00:08:31.700 But I'll just add the most shameful episode this entire period when they tried to destroy the career of that NBC News reporter who's covering the campaign, had an interview with him and said prior to the interview, it was clear he did not understand what she was saying when she was trying to engage in idle chit chat.

00:08:49.220 They said she was lying. And as you say, she was an ableist and hated disabled people and set the cause of disabled people back decades.

00:08:56.860 And it's one thing, Megan, like people to come after you. You know, you're used to it.

00:09:01.340 Here's this young reporter has to fear. Is she going to get fired? Is she going to have any career again?

00:09:05.640 And they were lying. And she was telling the truth. And that was just disgraceful.

00:09:09.220 Yeah. I mean, she was the best example of people being shamed for asking good questions or raising concerns.

00:09:15.060 And all along, Doc, they kept telling us there's no there's no cognitive issue with him.

00:09:19.720 It's just this auditory processing difficulty in the wake of the stroke.

00:09:24.680 And yet in that debate and since then, it does appear that there are cognitive issues.

00:09:30.400 He can't. It's not just the way he hears things. His speech makes no sense half the time.

00:09:36.560 You he's not saying the right words in the right situations. Am I? Is that cognitive?

00:09:42.860 All right. Hold on. We're going to work on a connection with Dr.

00:09:46.040 Coca and try to get an answer to that question. But here's an example, Rich, of what I'm talking about.

00:09:50.060 He spoke. This is February 3rd, not even a week ago in Philadelphia.

00:09:57.040 And you can see you can hear for yourself. He's trying to talk about clean water.

00:10:00.640 Here's how it went. Replacing the lead pipes and ensuring that everyone has clean, safe, clean drinking work waters. 0.75

00:10:13.520 Drinking work. I mean, meanwhile, the drinking water sign is like blaring behind him.

00:10:16.720 This is what the whole event is about. He couldn't get it out.

00:10:19.060 Anybody else? He'd say, oh, we all stumble on our words.

00:10:21.660 I mean, it's it's every day with this guy.

00:10:23.480 Yeah, it's it's painful. And he's he's generally avoided interviews.

00:10:28.340 And it's a clear double standard, because when Mark Kirk, former senator from Illinois, a Republican, had a stroke and was like, he had a stroke.

00:10:35.800 He's not going to be able to be a senator anymore.

00:10:37.960 You know, the newspaper said it in Illinois.

00:10:40.120 No one was like, oh, you're an ableist. This is a terrible thing you're doing to Mark Kirk.

00:10:44.060 So, again, I would have thought just given that debate that you shouldn't have voted for John Fetterman because it's going to be really hard for him to do the job.

00:10:50.780 But they had the debate and Pennsylvania motor voters made made a different decision.

00:10:57.120 Here's why it's upsetting, because he was pressed over and over again about whether he was fit to serve.

00:11:02.180 I mean, honestly, he's made it one month and he's back in the hospital one month.

00:11:07.280 And here's just a preview of what was happening back in November 22, 2022, when he was talking about this.

00:11:13.860 And the thing is, the there's a reason that nobody wanted us asking these questions.

00:11:18.500 The Democrats understood very well that it was a 50 50 Senate at the time they had the opportunity to capture this seat.

00:11:25.140 And therefore, we weren't allowed to inquire past unfit unfit unfit.

00:11:30.680 Here's an example of an exchange he had with Don Lamont over at CNN.

00:11:34.420 Sot 22.

00:11:35.720 Because then voters may may wonder, is there a reason that you don't want your doctors to take questions?

00:11:39.620 That's why I keep asking.

00:11:40.540 Oh, I just I just believe that we have our doctors just weigh in on that.

00:11:51.180 And they believe that I'm fit, fit to serve.

00:11:55.380 I'm fit to serve.

00:11:56.500 I'm fit to serve.

00:11:57.240 I'm fit to serve.

00:11:57.800 And then let me flash forward with you to his swearing in January 3rd.

00:12:01.880 And just he looks completely lost.

00:12:03.820 This is Sot 2.

00:12:05.280 Congratulations, Senator.

00:12:06.800 Congratulations.

00:12:09.600 And then the whole family?

00:12:10.920 All right.

00:12:11.180 Let's do the three of us.

00:12:12.480 Okay.

00:12:13.680 Nice to see you.

00:12:14.780 Thank you so much.

00:12:15.420 Take care.

00:12:16.300 Okay.

00:12:20.840 It doesn't get better from there.

00:12:22.340 And then the water thing I'm telling you about.

00:12:24.080 So, I mean, we haven't exactly had a banner first month.

00:12:27.560 Yeah, it's painful.

00:12:29.340 And it's just that we've talked about this a lot over the years.

00:12:32.500 One of the worst things about our politics is just there are two different sets of standards.

00:12:36.620 And reality is distorted to accommodate one side and whatever its interests are at that time.

00:12:42.260 So we heard from all sorts of voices in the legacy media.

00:12:46.140 Oh, it's so he's so courageous because he did this debate knowing he's not gonna be able to talk very well.

00:12:51.500 Or, you know, this is this is a great advance for disabled people that are gonna have a senator who can't really communicate very well, 0.99

00:12:57.540 which no one would have thought of saying prior to needing to elect John Fetterman to the seat that, you know, could have a decisive effect on who controlled the Senate.

00:13:08.400 So just just making up these these new standards are a reason why everyone distrust or a huge swath of people distrust anything you hear in the media.

00:13:18.080 His physician, the one we were relying on for these assurances that he was a OK, you know, the primary care physician, which is not a cardiologist.

00:13:27.440 That is not somebody who's got the in-depth knowledge.

00:13:29.440 He came out and said before before the debate that Fetterman speaks intelligently without cognitive deficits,

00:13:36.260 though, shows signs of auditory processing disorder, which causes him to have trouble understanding certain spoken words.

00:13:44.840 Well, that wasn't true.

00:13:46.740 I mean, that just wasn't true.

00:13:47.700 We saw it for ourselves in that debate.

00:13:49.740 So you tell me, Rich, why we should feel reassured or in a position to take the word of the Fetterman team when they tell us,

00:13:58.600 oh, he just went into the hospital because he felt lightheaded and that the initial test did not show evidence of a new stroke.

00:14:05.340 But the doctors are running more tests.

00:14:06.760 I don't trust these guys, even though he's already got the office now.

00:14:10.240 I don't trust them now.

00:14:12.520 And you shouldn't trust them again.

00:14:13.820 They've been hiding the ball and have been transparent for years on his underlying conditions and especially after the stroke.

00:14:20.300 So maybe this is true.

00:14:21.920 You know, I don't discount it.

00:14:23.980 But let's hope it is true.

00:14:26.260 But you've got to distrust and verify this.

00:14:29.960 So let's wait and see what actually transpires.

00:14:33.340 But no, you can't believe them in the least.

00:14:36.160 Dr. Koka is back with us now.

00:14:37.680 So what of that, Dr. Koka?

00:14:38.880 He says the doctor, the same primary care physician was telling us there are no cognitive defects at all.

00:14:44.720 It's just an auditory processing issue.

00:14:47.380 And what we saw at that debate and what we've seen thereafter to the layperson definitely seems like there's a cognitive issue.

00:14:53.980 You know, it is very hard.

00:14:56.360 You know, as I'm a cardiologist, but I've taken care of enough folks after having a stroke.

00:15:01.200 And it's very difficult because you can be intact and cognitively intact, you know, but you're unable to get the words out.

00:15:08.960 And the words are misprocessed.

00:15:10.320 And it's kind of a word salad that kind of comes out, which kind of seems like what's going on with him.

00:15:14.720 So but it is possible.

00:15:16.360 There are other ways of testing cognition beyond just speech.

00:15:20.580 And so it's certainly possible.

00:15:23.040 And I take care of a number of wonderful patients who've had strokes and have difficulty speaking.

00:15:28.480 And, you know, and I've written testimonials for them in terms of, yes, you know, these folks are doing well and they can participate in X, Y and Z.

00:15:36.540 But I think it would be nice to have just more transparency because I think most doctors that are busy that see patients, you know, they're not going to necessarily say this is a patient that has difficulty processing and getting words out.

00:15:51.160 And therefore, you cannot do anything like this ever again.

00:15:54.480 Or this definitely means that there's some severe cognitive impairment.

00:15:58.600 But I think the issue is, is that just the lack of transparency, as you're saying, makes it difficult to trust them, right?

00:16:04.360 If they say if they say right after having a stroke, oh, it's a standard thing that you get a getting a standard pacemaker put in after you have a stroke.

00:16:10.860 That is not standard at all.

00:16:12.600 Not only do you not get a pacemaker, you got a defibrillator, which implies a weak heart pump, which implies heart failure, which is much more ominous than just having just having, you know, had a stroke, which is ominous in and of itself.

00:16:24.120 So I think the issue is just one of transparency, and I wish they would be more transparent and, you know, focus on regardless of your politics.

00:16:31.440 I think folks would feel a lot better about that.

00:16:33.800 Mm hmm. Do you what do you make of that report feeling lightheaded and then hospitalized for observation?

00:16:39.800 What does that sound like something that happens to a stroke victim or?

00:16:44.000 No, no. Yeah, that it's just it could it's not necessarily related, could not necessarily be related to stroke.

00:16:49.560 It'd be something just simple as he was a little dehydrated. Right.

00:16:52.300 The most common thing I would say from a cardiac standpoint in my heart failure patients that I cause this all the time is when I'm trying to up titrate their medication to get their heart muscle to pump better.

00:17:02.400 You want their heart marinating in a nice mix of medicines.

00:17:05.140 Some of them are diuretics.

00:17:06.060 Some of them are another panoply of, you know, four or five medicines.

00:17:09.200 And the goal is to try to get them on all these medicines so you can get the heart pumping better.

00:17:12.660 But one of the downsides of doing that is that you drop their blood pressure.

00:17:16.220 You make them more dehydrated and they may and they will come in saying, Doc, I'm feeling a little lightheaded, you know, after you started this medicine just happened an hour ago.

00:17:23.720 And so, like, all right, well, we got to pull you back off that medicine.

00:17:26.040 So it could be something as simple as that, but it could also be something much more serious.

00:17:30.840 And so that's why, you know, they're right to take him to the take him to the ER to check to make sure he doesn't have a stroke.

00:17:36.340 But there's other things that could be, you know, he has a defibrillator for a reason.

00:17:39.980 The defibrillator there is there to look for bad arrhythmia that he's more predisposed to because his heart muscle is weak.

00:17:44.700 And so, you know, is it related to could there be some arrhythmia going on that could have caused him to be lightheaded?

00:17:50.040 We have no idea. That's complete idle speculation.

00:17:51.880 But the point is, if you are transparent about those things, I think everyone would feel a lot better.

00:17:55.960 Like simply the treating cardiologist saying, hey, you know, we checked out his device.

00:17:59.500 Everything looks beautiful. You know, this is what his heart function is looking like now.

00:18:03.440 These are the meds. You know, this is what we found.

00:18:05.940 And I think, you know, we would be able to not just sit here and throw darts, throw darts and be like, is it this or is it this?

00:18:12.000 Well, because we all know that if the treating cardiologist had been saying optimistic things back before the election, they would have put him out there.

00:18:20.340 Right. They would have put him out there. There's a reason they didn't allow us access to the true expert.

00:18:26.520 Right. Yeah. Yeah.

00:18:28.040 And also, you know, they've won. So he's there for six years, God willing.

00:18:33.820 Be honest now, at least. Be transparent now. Don't don't leave these lingering questions.

00:18:38.280 Well, I guess I guess I guess. Yeah, go ahead, Doc.

00:18:42.160 I guess I guess, you know, I wonder. I mean, you always worry when they're not being transparent about how bad something may really be.

00:18:48.860 So, you know, if for instance, your left ventricle, which is, you know, if it's dilated, there's there's degrees to that.

00:18:53.900 Right. If it's mildly dilated, it's one thing. If it's six point five centimeters dilated, you know, any heart failure doctor you talk to is going to be like, oh, my goodness.

00:19:00.240 That is that is a prognostically difficult place to be. And and, you know, do you want somebody like that necessarily being in a very, very busy, active, stressful job?

00:19:09.860 And so I think I think one of the things in terms of why they kept him away so long until the debate is that they're really hoping for for improvement.

00:19:17.860 Right. So, you know, they want to take a snapshot when he's doing really well.

00:19:21.420 And I do understand that, that, you know, they were hoping for as long as possible, you get as much recovery as possible and then kind of show your cards.

00:19:29.960 And, you know, the question is, at what point do you say, OK, this is this is what we have and this is this is this is where we are with his heart, with his brain, et cetera.

00:19:39.100 So after all the heart disease talk, all viewers of the segment go straight to the treadmill.

00:19:45.040 At least they could.

00:19:47.380 Definitely go to your cardiologist once a year and get a stress test. I do it.

00:19:51.420 Rich, before I let you go, is there any possibility of Senator Giselle Fetterman if he is not able to do this job?

00:20:00.200 Because many believed that's what she wanted from the beginning, the wife. 0.82

00:20:03.700 Yeah, I think there is some possibility. If for some reason he had to step aside, I think there'd be lots of calls to do that.

00:20:10.000 Not sure that the governor of Pennsylvania Shapiro would would go there, but there'd definitely be a lot of a lot of pressure.

00:20:17.960 People, you know, all the same things we heard before the election be be kind of those arguments we made again.

00:20:23.740 How could this is so nasty of you? How can you be so mean to her?

00:20:26.680 How can you be sexist, not pick her?

00:20:30.280 So I think there'd be a lot of pressure, certainly in progressive media circles to to pick her.

00:20:37.180 I'm not sure it would happen, though.

00:20:38.220 So it would be up to the governor, though. And it's not like the governor is going to pick our Republican.

00:20:44.720 No, no. And I don't know whether there eventually have to be a special election, but if there if there would be, I would be pretty confident, given the record of Pennsylvania Republicans here, that they'd mess it up.

00:20:56.220 Yeah. So you can be rest assured of that one thing closing out the segment.

00:21:01.740 Dr. Koka, thank you so much for your expertise.

00:21:03.840 They lost to John Fetterman in his current state that they can lose to anyone.

00:21:08.040 Yeah. Put your money there. Rich Lowry, great to see you, too. Thanks, guys.

00:21:12.100 Thank you so much.

00:21:13.320 All right. We'll be right back with Miranda Devine on the Hunter Biden Twitter dust up at the House yesterday.

00:21:19.600 Thank you so much for joining us today.

00:21:50.260 Miranda, thank you for being here. I'll play the soundbite with Judy Woodruff.

00:21:54.040 I mean, no one's surprised. No one's surprised to see PBS try to check a box.

00:21:59.720 We know we asked. We asked about it with zero follow up.

00:22:03.880 I'll just play it so we can get this out of the way. It's sought for one of the things Republicans say is a priority for them.

00:22:10.300 It's investigating your family, your son, Hunter, your brother, Jim.

00:22:14.880 They talk about access that they say others have gotten because of you, because of your political success.

00:22:23.280 How do you how do you plan to to deal with that?

00:22:28.720 The public's not going to pay attention to that. They want these guys to do something.

00:22:33.340 The only thing they can do is make up things about my family. It's not going to go very far.

00:22:37.820 How do you plan to deal with that? What a landing.

00:22:43.080 The way she landed it, right, tells you everything you need to know about how she wanted the answer to come out.

00:22:48.520 What do you make of that?

00:22:49.260 Well, as you say, Judy Woodruff has given him a soft soap and he knew that that question was coming.

00:22:58.700 And I think that's really the only way he can deal with it.

00:23:02.220 He can't deal with it, honestly, because he's denied that he had anything to do with his son, Hunter,

00:23:08.860 or his brother, Jim, or Frank's overseas business dealings when they were selling his name for profit overseas.

00:23:16.900 But I just don't think that this line is sustainable.

00:23:22.200 At some point, they have to confront the problem that they have about the influence peddling scheme that his family was running and Joe Biden's involvement in it.

00:23:32.680 And, you know, it's it's not just the Republicans in the House who are aggressively investigating this corruption,

00:23:41.460 but it's also the long running attorney general, not attorney general, US attorney in Delaware's investigation into Hunter Biden and all his businesses.

00:23:53.340 So at some point, they have to confront it.

00:23:56.260 And Joe Biden has has been an ostrich from the beginning and it's worked for him.

00:24:01.880 But when he says the public isn't interested, he's only talking about that half or less of the American public who still reads the New York Times and the Washington Post and gets all their news from CNN and MSNBC and PBS.

00:24:19.880 They don't actually know because they've been kept in the dark the truth about Hunter Biden's laptop and Hunter Biden's former business partners like Tony Bobulinski and all the financial documents uncovered by the Republican senators Chuck Grassley and Ron Johnson.

00:24:38.480 They don't know about the corruption and so, of course, all they hear vaguely in the background about a laptop is that Hunter Biden was a poor, you know, drug addict and he's reformed now.

00:24:53.560 And these mean Republicans are crucifying the child of the president, who's such a great family man.

00:25:00.320 And that's all they hear, maybe a little bit of drugs and sex, but they don't care because they constantly the refrain is Hunter Biden's a private citizen. 0.76

00:25:10.500 He didn't run for office, et cetera.

00:25:12.740 But thankfully, as the Republicans, James Comer and Jim Jordan and so on in the House are making very clear this is not an investigation into Hunter Biden.

00:25:23.700 It's an investigation into Joe Biden and whether or not all these millions of dollars that flowed through to his family have compromised the president of the United States in the eyes of China and Russia and Ukraine and so on.

00:25:39.360 Yeah. Like why didn't why did he spend about 17 words on China in his State of the Union?

00:25:43.540 What what could there be some reason for that beyond the fact that he feels feckless in dealing with them for professional reasons and for national reasons?

00:25:51.940 Could it be personal reasons, by the way, he's wrong, too, because we just pulled this.

00:25:56.660 This is from a Fox poll from just this past December.

00:25:59.940 Nearly three quarters of voters, 72 percent, say it is important for the Justice Department to investigate the younger Biden hunters business dealings with foreign governments unchanged from the 72 percent who felt that way in August.

00:26:12.000 And that number includes majorities of Republicans, 88 percent of Republicans, independents, 74 and even 54 percent of Democrats.

00:26:19.760 So even a majority of Democrats believe it's important to investigate Hunter Biden's business dealings.

00:26:25.240 And it's it is because they understand it could reflect on the president and the safety of the country in terms of Joe's decision making.

00:26:31.840 So he's wrong about that. And Judy Woodruff should have done her homework or at least tried to pretend to give a damn on behalf of her audience and just the truth. 0.97

00:26:41.320 So she didn't. So now cut to the House where the Republicans have taken over and they are taking a look at this.

00:26:48.280 And so they had some Twitter executives come yesterday and started asking questions about your paper.

00:26:56.760 It's breaking of the Hunter Biden laptop news shortly before the midterms and I'm sorry, before the presidential election and why Twitter decided to suppress that reporting.

00:27:08.360 And the coordination that Twitter was clearly doing with the FBI to make sure that the people never saw that reporting and in particular the documents that proved it, the documents from the laptop that showed what you guys were were reporting in your paper.

00:27:24.840 So let me ask you overall what you thought of the hearings and whether any ground was made.

00:27:27.980 Look, they were a little bit frustrating from my point of view, because it seemed like some of the Republicans asking questions weren't really on top of the detail, which is complicated.

00:27:40.340 And that was sort of repetitive and uncoordinated.

00:27:43.580 But in in total, I think it was a good taster for what's to come.

00:27:48.560 My big takeouts were that James Baker, who was the number two lawyer at Twitter, parachuted in from the FBI, where he'd been the top lawyer involved in all the Russiagate hoaxes.

00:28:03.620 And he was parachuted into Twitter five months before the 2020 election.

00:28:08.200 And he was asked, who hired you?

00:28:11.400 It was very uncomfortable, pretended he didn't really understand.

00:28:14.820 Then he named his boss.

00:28:17.280 But that wasn't the person who hired him.

00:28:19.360 And he wasn't pressed on that, unfortunately.

00:28:22.620 He also was pretty evasive when it came to questions about when he knew about Hunter Biden's laptop.

00:28:30.620 And did he talk to anyone at the FBI about it?

00:28:34.000 We have that.

00:28:34.880 Let me let me interrupt you and just I'll play that and then pick it up on the back end.

00:28:38.200 And this is this is important because what they're interested, not so much in what a private company Twitter did around the election, even though it was despicable.

00:28:45.620 They're interested in this as government officials, because they do believe and have good reason to believe that there was coordination with our intelligence agencies, that the FBI was actively working to insert itself in a presidential election on behalf of one candidate.

00:29:00.140 That's why it's interesting and problematic.

00:29:02.080 So here they have the general counsel of Twitter, deputy general counsel who had just two minutes ago been working for the FBI and they're probing him on.

00:29:11.380 Did you, as the top lawyer at Twitter, have any conversations with your old pals at the FBI, in addition to the ones we know they all had, about this specific report in the New York Times and the New York Post and Hunter Biden's laptop?

00:29:24.980 And here is part of that exchange.

00:29:26.900 Mr. Becker, did you call any of your contacts at the FBI to ask whether or not they knew if the material had been hacked?

00:29:36.440 I don't recall contacting them about that on that day.

00:29:40.180 Your response is real specific to the chairman.

00:29:42.280 You said I did not talk to the FBI about the Hunter Biden laptop story that day.

00:29:45.380 I assume that day is October 14th.

00:29:47.000 I want to know if you talk to him on the 13th or before or if you talk to him on the 15th and after.

00:29:50.580 I don't recall speaking to the FBI sitting here today.

00:29:55.680 I don't recall speaking to the FBI at all about the Hunter Biden matter.

00:29:59.100 Well, then why did you answer it?

00:29:59.900 Why did you answer it the way you did?

00:30:01.380 I beg your pardon?

00:30:02.500 I give back to.

00:30:04.600 About the laptop, about that.

00:30:06.360 So they were talking about Hunter Biden and he was weaseling and wiggling to avoid admitting that.

00:30:12.480 We don't know what else he might have admitted if they'd had longer time and, you know, effective cross.

00:30:16.840 Look, I think what was really telling there was when James Baker qualified himself and said the laptop, the laptop, meaning you can assume that he was talking to the FBI about Hunter Biden, about the Hunter Biden matter.

00:30:35.860 He may not have been talking about a laptop, but he was talking about material from the laptop that was going to be damaging to Joe Biden if it came out before the 2020 election, which, of course, the FBI knew it would because they'd been eavesdropping spying on Rudy Giuliani's cloud.

00:30:58.160 So they knew that he'd been contacted by the computer repair shop owner who had the laptop after Hunter had abandoned it.

00:31:07.020 They knew because he emailed Rudy Giuliani with some pretty forensic material from the laptop.

00:31:16.780 And then they also would have had access to my messages with Rudy Giuliani, which would have given them an indication that the New York Post was about to publish or would publish.

00:31:26.320 And so the FBI knew. And of course, they'd had the laptop since December 2019.

00:31:31.660 And if they were talking to James Baker, James Baker knew and he was instrumental in censoring the post.

00:31:40.720 Right. So here's the problem. They had it in their possession.

00:31:43.560 They knew full well that it was legitimate.

00:31:45.460 And so I don't know what they actually said in terms of words to James Baker, but they 100 percent were warning Twitter disinformation is about to come.

00:31:53.980 And I'm sure it sounded something like and it's going to be about Hunter and you can't trust it.

00:31:58.740 And of course, they knew the opposite was true, all of which is really problematic.

00:32:04.540 Well, I mean, at least problematic. It's corrupt.

00:32:07.820 It's interfering in the 2020 election on behalf of one candidate, on behalf of Joe Biden.

00:32:15.540 And what we don't know is who was orchestrating it, who who arranged for James Baker to be parachuted into Twitter five months before the election to act as a gatekeeper to ensure that none of this material saw the light of day.

00:32:34.360 They also did the same thing with Facebook.

00:32:36.880 They parachuted in a left wing lawyer who was there for a few months and then got a job in the Biden administration.

00:32:44.080 This was a woman, a professor, Pamela Carlin, who had already publicly shown hostility towards Donald Trump's then young teenage son, Barron, making some snide joke.

00:32:56.440 And so it was a sort of an orchestrated campaign to crush the story that the FBI knew was coming out.

00:33:06.800 Who was it?

00:33:07.840 We know from FBI whistleblowers that there were people within the Washington field office who had buried the laptop, ensured that no investigation could occur into it before the election.

00:33:20.340 And not only that, they had buried the material that Tony Bobulinski, Hunter Biden's former business partner, had brought to them before the election, including the contents of three of his devices and a five and a half hour interview that he gave in Washington, D.C.

00:33:39.980 at FBI headquarters, that according to him, had the agents, the young agents interviewing him, their jaws were on the floor with the stories he was telling them about the Biden family's involvement with China, this mega million dollar deal, and that Joe Biden was involved and had met personally with Tony Bobulinski to vet him as CEO of this scheme, this deal, you know, in California.

00:34:08.700 So this was implicating Joe Biden, and again, Tony Bobulinski never heard from those people again.

00:34:15.940 And extraordinarily, you'd think he'd be the star witness of that U.S. attorney's investigation down in Delaware into Hunter Biden, the grand jury there that's called Hunter's, you know, former lovers and a couple of other former business partners.

00:34:31.480 But, you know, they've never asked or subpoenaed Tony Bobulinski to appear there.

00:34:37.120 Right. Is that right? That's just first of all, the fact that this poor guy was in earnest going in saying, you I have information you really might need to know.

00:34:46.620 And they already had the laptop and he's thinking he's dealing with federal investigators who will get to the bottom of this potential crime, potential corruption.

00:34:54.240 And the poor guy takes him years to realize they're corrupt there.

00:34:58.800 You're going to people who are in the business of covering up for the very man you are essentially accusing.

00:35:04.900 I mean, that's really what we've learned over the past two years, thanks to you, The New York Post and this great reporting you've been doing about what the FBI did to Tony Bobulinski and anybody bringing them information on Hunter Biden slash Joe.

00:35:17.160 Yes. And that includes John Paul MacIsaac, the computer repair shop guy.

00:35:22.980 Remember, he didn't want to go to the media and he didn't.

00:35:26.580 He never did. He went to the FBI about eight months after he got that laptop and after it became his legal property because of the work order that Hunter had signed, saying that if he abandoned it after 90 days, it belonged to the store.

00:35:42.360 And he looked at the material. He was disturbed by especially the Ukraine stuff and the China stuff.

00:35:51.120 He thought this is a matter of national security.

00:35:54.520 There was the impeachment of Donald Trump going on at the time.

00:35:58.160 He was a Donald Trump voter, supporter.

00:36:01.660 No crime in that.

00:36:03.200 And he thought that the material on the laptop would help Donald Trump.

00:36:07.060 He went to the authorities.

00:36:08.180 He went to the FBI and they buried it.

00:36:10.960 He was a patriot.

00:36:13.340 Similarly, Tiny Bobulinski is a naval veteran from a family, two generations of military veterans.

00:36:21.120 And he is an impeachable witness.

00:36:25.360 He has a top secret security clearance from the Navy and somewhere else.

00:36:33.540 So he's not someone that you can just dismiss as an unreliable witness.

00:36:38.980 And he again went because it was his patriotic duty, he felt, before the election to allow the American people to understand exactly who Joe Biden was, which really is the opposite of the persona that he has built for himself.

00:36:54.340 And remember when he was up on the debate stage in that last debate against Donald Trump and he looked down the barrel of the camera and told the American people that, you know, this story about the laptop, it was just a Russian plant.

00:37:09.560 And he said, look at my character and compare it to his, to Donald Trump's, you know, I'm honest, you know, I'm trustworthy, you know, my integrity.

00:37:18.640 And unfortunately, he has managed over four decades in the Senate and as vice president to fool a lot of Americans.

00:37:28.440 And I think that mythology is coming to an end now.

00:37:31.800 So you've got James Baker, the FBI lawyer who then got parachuted into Twitter, clearly, in my view, misleading about his specific contacts with the FBI on this story while he was in his Twitter role.

00:37:44.440 And the guy under him is this Yoel Roth, who he's been out in the news quite a bit in the wake of his departure from Twitter.

00:37:51.360 And he got the vapors over COVID in January 6th and all the things.

00:37:55.200 And now they ask him about what happened with the Hunter laptop.

00:37:58.580 And this, to me, we don't have this sound cut, Miranda, but this, to me, was probably the least credible testimony that was given yesterday.

00:38:07.940 Jim Jordan, who's the best cross examiner they have, they should just give everybody should just cede their questions to Jim Jordan.

00:38:14.500 Just let him do a thorough a through line, you know, just fight.

00:38:17.700 Everybody's need their moment in the sun, but they should just let him do it.

00:38:20.840 Um, he starts asking Yoel Roth about the fact that FBI special agent Elvis Chan sent you, Mr. Roth, an email.

00:38:31.840 And this email, Miranda, as I understand it, was sent the night before you broke the laptop story.

00:38:40.980 It was the night before you and the New York Post were breaking the laptop story.

00:38:45.020 So this is the FBI special agent reaching out directly to this guy, Yoel Roth, and saying, heads up, I'm going to send you a teleporter link for you to download 10 documents.

00:38:56.380 It's not spam.

00:38:57.520 Please confirm receipt when you get it.

00:38:59.820 And two minutes later at 624 p.m., this guy Roth responded back to the FBI saying received and downloaded.

00:39:06.280 Thanks.

00:39:07.060 Jordan says, what were those 10 documents?

00:39:09.620 Roth.

00:39:09.980 Twitter didn't give me access to my laptop.

00:39:12.620 I think he means in advance of this testimony.

00:39:14.480 But Special Agent Chan has said publicly, and the FBI has confirmed, that those documents did not relate to Hunter Biden.

00:39:22.200 And that's my recollection.

00:39:25.440 I find this extremely difficult to believe.

00:39:28.620 And the fact that this guy, Roth, Miranda, is claiming he has no idea.

00:39:33.060 You and I both know as press, as journalists.

00:39:36.480 This special agent from the FBI calls you with a, I'm sending you via teleporter link, 10 documents for you to look.

00:39:43.220 You know exactly what they were.

00:39:44.540 You know that day.

00:39:45.280 You know two years later.

00:39:46.300 It's seared in your memory.

00:39:47.540 That kind of thing does not happen every day.

00:39:49.880 This guy is not telling the truth.

00:39:51.460 No, and particularly when you put it into context, you're talking about 6.30 in the evening on the very day that we had called Hunter Biden's lawyer, George Mazzeer, to try and get a comment from his client and to give them a heads up that the story was coming.

00:40:10.800 So, obviously, panic station's there.

00:40:15.160 And next thing in the evening, John Paul MacIsaac is at his computer store and he gets a phone call from a man who says he's George Mazzeer and says that he understands that John Paul MacIsaac has his client's computer.

00:40:35.420 And so, John Paul MacIsaac, being a pretty savvy individual, says to this man on the phone, look, can you please hang up and send me an email so that I can check your bona fides, send it from your work address, and then we can talk.

00:40:51.280 And so, George Mazzeer did send that email from his law firm email address and confirm that he was George Mazzeer and that he just talked to John Paul MacIsaac.

00:41:03.480 So, there you have it, the panic was setting in, they were trying to retrieve the laptop, and so all you can assume is that it's an enormous coincidence that mere hours or less than hours after we alerted the Hunter Biden people that we were about to do the story the next day,

00:41:26.900 you had this late night flurry of documents come into Twitter from the FBI.

00:41:33.380 And look, even if the words Hunter Biden were not mentioned, all they would have to say is, and in fact, Joel Roth admitted this, he said,

00:41:43.820 oh, most of our conversations with the FBI were about malign disinformation or malign foreign information.

00:41:50.900 All they would have to do is say, hey, remember that story that we warned you about that was going to come, the big dump of Russian disinformation in October?

00:42:00.680 Well, that's going to happen tomorrow.

00:42:03.460 Yeah, it's hitting tomorrow.

00:42:05.100 Of course.

00:42:06.140 And in the meantime, you've got the New York Post trying to do honest reporting on this, and you've got the rest of the media working together to try and suppress it.

00:42:14.360 And that pattern continues to this day.

00:42:17.800 CNN's Oliver Darcy, this is his take.

00:42:20.620 OK, this is the new CNN, right, the new more fair and balanced CNN reporting that Republicans are living in a reality distortion field.

00:42:28.220 GOP lawmakers continue to push, quote, a factually unsupported narrative about the federal government secretly colluding with Twitter to censor the New York Post,

00:42:37.140 despite, quote, no real evidence to support this weighty and consequential claim.

00:42:42.740 Republicans were unrelenting in peddling it to the American public.

00:42:48.360 He is not a well-respected or well-known person, but AOC is pretty well-known.

00:42:55.360 And she pushed similar messaging yesterday in a pretty outrageous description of this entire issue.

00:43:02.380 And you're reporting here.

00:43:03.420 She is in SOT 7.

00:43:04.320 New York Post had this alleged information and was trying to publish it without any corroboration, without any backup information.

00:43:14.420 They were trying to publish it to Twitter.

00:43:16.120 Twitter did not let them.

00:43:17.500 And now they were upset.

00:43:19.040 A whole hearing about a 24-hour hiccup in a right-wing political operation.

00:43:24.000 That is why we are here right now.

00:43:25.980 And it is, it's just an abuse of public resources and abuse of public time.

00:43:31.580 But instead, we're talking about Hunter Biden's half-fake laptop story.

00:43:36.260 I mean, this is an embarrassment.

00:43:38.740 First of all, it's interesting to me.

00:43:39.820 She sounds very nervous.

00:43:40.920 You can hear the quiver in her voice.

00:43:42.640 She's nervous.

00:43:43.660 She doesn't know what she's talking about.

00:43:44.740 That's a problem.

00:43:45.280 When you don't know what you're talking about, you get nervous.

00:43:47.820 So your story is half-fake.

00:43:49.560 Hunter Biden laptop is now half-fake.

00:43:51.240 She's holding on to that.

00:43:52.520 That it was a 24-hour hiccup in the New York Post reporting.

00:43:56.080 That's not true at all.

00:43:57.480 That's not what happened between you guys and Twitter.

00:44:00.640 And that this is basically an embarrassment and a right-wing political operation, which

00:44:05.700 I think she means Twitter is.

00:44:07.560 I think she's referring to Twitter as a right-wing political operation.

00:44:10.400 Okay, because Elon wasn't even involved in Twitter at the time that all this went down.

00:44:14.460 And by the way, he's an independent.

00:44:15.800 So what are your thoughts on her attack?

00:44:18.620 Yeah, she does seem nervous.

00:44:20.080 And I find it extraordinary that she's supposed to be, you know, a leftist, and she's just

00:44:26.640 become an establishment shill.

00:44:29.320 It looked like she was auditioning for a role in a Kevin Morris production over in LA.

00:44:36.480 You know, when she says there it was a 24-hour hiccup, our account was locked by Twitter for

00:44:43.920 more than two weeks.

00:44:45.020 We only got it back a few days before the election.

00:44:49.120 And, you know, that stopped our reach.

00:44:52.600 It cost us a considerable amount of money and was just illogical.

00:44:59.600 And they knew from the very beginning that what we were publishing was real.

00:45:04.680 It wasn't hacked material.

00:45:05.980 And for AOC to say that we published this story with no corroboration and no background 0.96

00:45:13.680 material is just garbage.

00:45:16.080 And it's obvious from all of our reporting that we've corroborated and checked and authenticated 0.97

00:45:22.160 every word that we've put in the paper.

00:45:25.420 And, you know, from the very start, for instance, just one example of the corroboration, we had

00:45:31.240 the contents of Tony Bobulinski's devices, who was Hunter Biden's former business partner.

00:45:38.260 And so his devices, he had the emails and the text messages and the documents and so on

00:45:44.700 that were also on the laptop.

00:45:46.080 That corroborated and augmented what was on the laptop because he also had encrypted messages,

00:45:53.180 WhatsApp messages with Hunter Biden and the partners and Jim Biden, where they were, you know,

00:45:58.560 much more open about their discussions.

00:46:02.120 And, you know, and we also contacted other recipients of emails.

00:46:08.320 We compared, you know, photographs and dates and diaries and, you know, secret service movements,

00:46:16.600 et cetera.

00:46:17.200 I mean, there are a million ways to corroborate what was on the laptop. 0.99

00:46:21.500 And so it's really clutching at straws, pathetic. 0.93

00:46:24.580 Um, I, I, I just think that the Democrats were so desperate yesterday to try and bury this 0.97

00:46:33.560 story and pretend that it's not real because they know the truth is seeping out to even

00:46:38.640 their voters.

00:46:40.140 Even though, Miranda, now, now that you needed it, but even though now all the mainstream outlets,

00:46:47.060 including, by the way, Oliver Darcy, CNN, have confirmed that the contents of the laptop

00:46:52.500 have been authenticated, that it was real.

00:46:55.260 So I guess we're now back to pretending that didn't happen because we're actually having

00:46:59.640 hearings on it.

00:47:01.880 Yes.

00:47:02.480 And I think their position is increasingly untenable.

00:47:06.920 At some point, they're going to have to come out with some form of words that explains

00:47:12.040 why Joe Biden was involved in his family's influence peddling scheme and lied about it.

00:47:17.300 Some form of words that are recognizable and understandable.

00:47:22.740 Miranda Devine, always great to talk to you.

00:47:24.700 Thank you so much for your great reporting.

00:47:25.960 We appreciate it.

00:47:27.180 Thanks, man.

00:47:28.420 It's really crazy.

00:47:29.160 God, when you think about it, isn't it crazy what they did yesterday?

00:47:31.340 Wow.

00:47:31.780 All right.

00:47:32.020 We'll be right back.

00:47:33.260 Don't go away.

00:47:34.340 The Murdoch trial, Alec Murdoch, has had it all so far.

00:47:41.980 This man accused of murdering his own wife and his son in the midst of a financial crisis

00:47:49.060 in which he was being exposed as a criminal, among many other problems.

00:47:53.760 And now this jury has to figure out whether or not he did commit those murders.

00:47:58.200 The defense maintains he is innocent.

00:47:59.900 We've seen some explosive testimony this week from witnesses and even yesterday, a bomb threat

00:48:05.040 that shut down the courthouse and the court proceedings for a time.

00:48:08.660 Plus, Alec Baldwin is getting sued again.

00:48:12.180 Joining us now to discuss it all, Vinnie Politan of Court TV and also a public defender out of

00:48:17.200 Florida who's been following the Murdoch case very closely, Steve Gossney.

00:48:21.640 Vinnie, Steve, welcome back.

00:48:23.520 Great to see you.

00:48:24.440 Good to be back.

00:48:25.860 All right.

00:48:26.060 Let's spend a minute on Alec Baldwin before we dig into Murdoch, which is a longer and

00:48:29.620 I think more interesting case, at least today.

00:48:33.060 So my understanding is, you know, you know how it is, guys.

00:48:35.760 Whenever you see Gloria Allred's name attached to it, there's like a little bit of like,

00:48:39.360 oh, God.

00:48:40.440 I mean, God bless her, because she really has represented a lot of actual victims, but

00:48:44.180 she's represented a lot of fake victims, too.

00:48:45.900 Um, so she's coming out later today and she is going to be announcing that, um, she's filing

00:48:52.900 a wrongful death lawsuit on behalf against Baldwin, on behalf of other members of Helena

00:48:59.240 Hutchins family.

00:49:00.280 So Helena Hutchins widow, widower Matthew already sued Baldwin for wrongful death and they settled

00:49:07.420 it.

00:49:07.620 And now she's coming forward, I guess, on behalf of other family members, including

00:49:13.240 Helena's, uh, possible, like her parents and a sister is what we're being told.

00:49:18.680 We'll know more later trying to revive this, this claim.

00:49:23.040 Now I've never brought a wrongful death lawsuit.

00:49:26.180 A quick Google search tells me the general rule is you get one, you only get the one you

00:49:32.940 can't have like, and now the cousin and the seventh cousin twice removed.

00:49:37.080 And the in-laws, like, of course, that's, they're not going to let Alec Baldwin get sued by every

00:49:41.820 single family member of Helena Hutchins.

00:49:43.860 I don't know, Steve, you're actively practicing law now.

00:49:46.340 What do you make of it?

00:49:47.580 Well, I do.

00:49:48.220 I do criminal law.

00:49:49.060 My board certification is in Florida criminal law, but, uh, I did practice civil for about

00:49:53.600 six years way back when, and this is very state specific stuff.

00:49:57.640 And the question really is, is how far is the circle around the, the, uh, the decedent,

00:50:04.220 you know, it's a civil suit.

00:50:05.320 It's not criminal.

00:50:05.880 So they're looking for money and how many people can claim damages, um, within the circle

00:50:11.960 of the person that is killed.

00:50:13.260 So, you know, you might have a spouse and then children and then like, well, is it sisters?

00:50:17.400 Is it parents?

00:50:18.400 Second cousins once removed.

00:50:19.940 So, uh, that's going to be very dependent on the venue, um, that the suit is brought.

00:50:25.220 I feel like I, maybe, I don't know, cause they didn't file this when Matthew Hutchins was

00:50:30.940 filing his.

00:50:31.600 So they're a little late to the lawsuit party, Vinny.

00:50:35.140 If they had filed it at the same time that Matthew Hutchins filed his against Baldwin,

00:50:39.780 we probably would have had a court consolidate them and made them all come to a resolution

00:50:44.140 together.

00:50:44.900 But it is an interesting question.

00:50:46.700 What happens when the spouse files one settles it and the rest of the family is there saying,

00:50:52.980 what do you mean?

00:50:53.460 We lost someone too.

00:50:54.860 And it's as a result of this guy and we didn't waive any claims and Matthew Hutchins couldn't

00:50:59.720 have waived claims on behalf of the parents, um, without their permission.

00:51:04.480 So it does kind of raise an interesting issue.

00:51:07.140 It does.

00:51:08.000 But, you know, when we think of wrongful death, I mean, the purpose of wrongful death actions

00:51:12.480 is to take care of the people who were depending upon the person who was wrongfully killed.

00:51:18.720 And in this case, obviously it would be the husband.

00:51:21.320 It would be her child. 0.52

00:51:22.400 I mean, that is, uh, is, is, is very straightforward, very, um, obvious.

00:51:28.860 Now the parents, um, what level of support did she provide to her parents?

00:51:34.100 Was she providing them financial support?

00:51:36.800 Was there the emotional support?

00:51:38.500 Did she give them gifts?

00:51:40.120 Things like that.

00:51:41.080 I mean, the amount would be much less if there is liability, but I think they're going to

00:51:45.760 run into some troubles here.

00:51:46.760 Then when you get to a sibling, uh, what was the nature of this relationship between the

00:51:50.960 siblings?

00:51:51.360 Did she take care of her sister? 0.99

00:51:53.860 Uh, was this, was her sister dependent upon her?

00:51:56.940 Um, I think you've got to create that actual, like monetary, because a lawsuit, a civil lawsuit

00:52:03.140 ultimately is about money.

00:52:04.480 Um, the actual monetary dependency between the parents and the sister and Helena.

00:52:11.220 And I don't know what that relationship was like.

00:52:13.780 Obviously they're, they're missing something emotionally and things like that.

00:52:16.840 But when it comes to wrongful death, um, in many States and California, they lean more

00:52:21.660 heavily onto like the actual damages, right?

00:52:24.120 What did this cost the family?

00:52:26.340 Um, what was the actual monetary loss?

00:52:28.620 Cause you got to put a dollar figure on it.

00:52:30.260 Um, so that's really, um, I think what the case is about, and that's already been taken

00:52:35.420 care of in the civil courts.

00:52:36.960 This is going to be a tough one, but I will say this, Megan, I have to disclose this.

00:52:42.640 Um, Gloria Allred at one time was my anchor-in-law because I co-hosted a show with her daughter,

00:52:49.900 Lisa.

00:52:50.940 So that would make Gloria Allred my anchor-in-law.

00:52:54.080 So I always, uh, believe in her and stand up for her.

00:52:57.220 She was a great anchor-in-law.

00:52:59.180 Oh, that's, I mean, I, I love talking to Gloria.

00:53:02.920 Don't get me wrong.

00:53:03.700 I've done a million interviews of her over the years and she's always interesting.

00:53:06.940 And she really has represented a lot of real victims, uh, but the list on the other

00:53:11.980 side is long too.

00:53:13.560 Okay.

00:53:14.200 Um, let's move on.

00:53:15.560 I will say this where the pockets may be deeper than the, than the, than the level

00:53:19.960 of actual damage for these particular litigants, if you know what I mean, right? 0.87

00:53:24.200 So how much they're out is probably less than how deep, uh, his pockets are.

00:53:29.280 It's going to be handled by insurance, the insurance company that was backing up Alec Baldwin

00:53:33.400 on the set of this movie.

00:53:34.320 So it shouldn't be his money at all, really, unless he's already tapped out in the settlement

00:53:38.120 with Matthew Hutchins.

00:53:38.920 That's the question.

00:53:40.180 That's the question.

00:53:41.360 That's the question.

00:53:42.020 All right.

00:53:42.200 So all of that will come out eventually.

00:53:43.820 Let's move on.

00:53:44.380 Um, and I, let's, let's do Gabby Petito before we get into Murdoch.

00:53:48.200 Okay.

00:53:48.360 So we'll do it like an ascending order of, of, uh, breaking news.

00:53:52.460 So Gabby Petito back in the news, her family, this poor girl murdered by her boyfriend,

00:53:58.100 Brian Landry, after they went on their cross country road trip in their cute little van.

00:54:03.180 And, um, she was strangled to death by him and also beaten with a blunt force object.

00:54:08.900 Then he went back home to Florida with the van and no Gabby.

00:54:12.280 And he went to see his parents.

00:54:14.480 They'd been out West.

00:54:15.500 He went home to his floor to Florida parents. 0.67

00:54:18.180 And then next thing you knew, he was gone.

00:54:19.960 He was on the run.

00:54:20.980 And the parents are like, we don't know where he is.

00:54:23.280 We don't, we have no idea.

00:54:24.700 Well, now the parents, and then we later found out that Brian had killed himself.

00:54:27.640 He had shot himself in Florida swamp and had confessed to the murder in some baloney

00:54:33.580 note where it was like, Oh, I thought I was helping her.

00:54:36.160 She, she fell and she hurt herself.

00:54:37.560 And I was really, it was a mercy kill.

00:54:39.400 Sure.

00:54:39.580 It was okay.

00:54:40.320 Sure.

00:54:41.140 Anyway, the potatoes are now suing his parents and the family lawyer.

00:54:48.480 Um, and they are also now going after the Moab police department guys, um, claiming that

00:54:57.940 those cops who pulled over Brian and Gabby right before she was killed, not long before

00:55:06.460 should have seen that he had beaten her and should have done something to intervene to save

00:55:13.860 her just as a refresher for the audience.

00:55:17.640 Um, here's a soundbite of that.

00:55:19.340 Some of that exchange between Gabby Petito and the officers.

00:55:23.720 This is what the cops are now using.

00:55:25.600 Cause they're like, she said she struck first.

00:55:27.840 She was the aggressor and this is kind of their defense, but here's a little bit of what

00:55:31.800 happened in that traffic stop.

00:55:34.180 We want to know the truth.

00:55:35.220 If he actually hit you, cause you know, where did he hit you?

00:55:40.980 Don't, don't worry, just be honest.

00:55:42.720 Well, he like grabs my face.

00:55:44.600 Slap your face or what?

00:55:46.260 Well, like he like grabs me like with his nail and I guess that's why it was, I definitely

00:55:50.460 have a cut right here cause I can feel it.

00:55:52.340 Yeah.

00:55:52.680 It's a fetish difference.

00:55:53.860 She gets really worked up and when she does she swings and she had herself on her hand 1.00

00:55:57.200 so I was just trying to push her away.

00:55:58.580 Well, to be honest, I didn't really hit him first.

00:56:01.380 Where'd you hit him?

00:56:02.580 I slapped him.

00:56:04.000 You slapped him first?

00:56:05.220 And then, it's on his face? 0.98

00:56:06.840 He got to put me to shut up.

00:56:09.480 Hmm.

00:56:09.840 So they are saying that these cops did not recognize that she was an abuse victim and

00:56:16.500 while they did split the pair up for the night, the cops did, they, they kind of accepted

00:56:22.300 that statement.

00:56:23.240 I hit him first and started treating her like she was the aggressor and they did threaten

00:56:26.120 to bring her to jail and that they should have known.

00:56:28.300 And they've released this photo now of her injuries up close, which we couldn't really

00:56:31.480 see on that video.

00:56:32.560 And it's just so sad, guys.

00:56:34.920 It's so sad.

00:56:36.180 You can really see how he, he hurt her.

00:56:38.560 Her left eye is swollen and red.

00:56:42.560 It does look like it's cut.

00:56:44.000 And it is kind of shocking to think the cops saw that and saw anything other than a victim

00:56:50.320 of domestic abuse.

00:56:51.280 But Vinny, what do you make of the lawsuit?

00:56:53.140 Well, I think they have a strong lawsuit here because on the scene, the officer, we've got

00:56:58.260 long body cam, is basically acknowledging that he's not following protocol.

00:57:04.040 He's not doing what he's supposed to do.

00:57:05.480 What you have to do is look at the totality of the circumstances.

00:57:08.980 The call came in from an independent witness that he was hitting her.

00:57:15.560 That's the call.

00:57:17.080 That's the reason they're pulled over.

00:57:19.100 Because when they're over at some coffee shop in the parking lot, I think it's two different

00:57:24.260 people call in about a domestic violence incident where a man is hitting a young girl.

00:57:30.880 Okay?

00:57:31.580 The man is Brian Laundrie.

00:57:32.700 They're about the same age, but he was hitting her. 0.99

00:57:38.180 That's what they were responding to.

00:57:39.540 They pull him over.

00:57:40.680 And all of a sudden, the cops are getting buddy-buddy with Brian Laundrie, who is acting like so super

00:57:45.760 cool.

00:57:47.100 And Gabby Petito is an emotional mess. 0.76

00:57:51.220 Any police officer who has ever been trained in domestic violence would know that if you've

00:57:56.780 got the victim and you've got the abuser together.

00:58:00.280 How many times, Megan, have we heard the story where the abuser says, it's my fault?

00:58:06.480 It's my fault.

00:58:07.620 No, no, no.

00:58:08.160 It was me.

00:58:09.900 It was me.

00:58:11.140 And it's so obvious, so ordinary in terms of what I've seen through the years in domestic

00:58:19.420 violence cases is that the victims, especially when they're women, don't want to say, I was

00:58:25.120 the victim.

00:58:25.620 It's my fault.

00:58:26.480 It's my fault.

00:58:27.200 It's my fault.

00:58:27.960 Meanwhile, he's standing right there.

00:58:30.520 There's also a question about when she says, I hit him first, the size differential and whether

00:58:34.900 that would justify him wailing on her as the independent witness said.

00:58:39.160 He had no marks on him.

00:58:40.940 He was fine.

00:58:41.920 She was an emotional mess.

00:58:43.640 And the two independent witnesses who called 911 said there's a man beating a young woman.

00:58:49.320 What they're alleging, Steve, in this lawsuit, the parents of Gabby Petito, is that the cops

00:58:55.200 basically coached her.

00:58:56.600 That's the word they use.

00:58:57.940 They coached her kind of off the ledge and into saying what they needed to hear so that

00:59:05.220 they could walk away from this pair and not do anything further.

00:59:08.980 We pulled some of that.

00:59:10.740 It is a very long tape.

00:59:11.580 I think it's like it was on for like an hour.

00:59:12.780 We pulled a little bit of that.

00:59:13.840 And here's a sample.

00:59:16.140 Gabby, this is a very, very important question.

00:59:19.200 How you answer this question is going to determine what happens next.

00:59:23.180 But the only person who can answer this question is you.

00:59:26.740 Think very hard before you answer the question.

00:59:29.140 Do not quickly answer it.

00:59:30.280 Think very hard.

00:59:31.140 When you slapped him those times, were you attempting to cause him physical pain or physical impairment?

00:59:43.860 Was that what you were attempting to do today?

00:59:45.680 No.

00:59:46.560 What were you attempting to do?

00:59:49.260 What was the reason behind the slapping and stuff?

00:59:53.060 What was it you were attempting to accomplish by slapping?

00:59:56.980 I was trying to get him to stop telling me to come down.

01:00:01.140 Well, it doesn't sound to me like she attempted to do it.

01:00:04.520 And this is what they allege in the suit, that the Moab police officer, Eric Pratt, was, quote,

01:00:09.260 fundamentally biased in his approach to that investigation, choosing to believe Gabby's abuser,

01:00:13.960 ignoring evidence that Gabby was the victim and intentionally looking for loopholes to get around the requirements of Utah law

01:00:19.800 and his duty to protect Gabby.

01:00:22.700 Your thoughts?

01:00:23.320 Well, I think Vinny laid out the plaintiff case here pretty well and pretty powerfully and emotionally.

01:00:31.480 And obviously, you have some parents here who lost their precious child.

01:00:37.840 And so, obviously, the sympathies with everybody are going to be with the murder victim's family, right?

01:00:44.640 So, that's a powerful emotional appeal.

01:00:48.340 There will be defenses, I'm sure.

01:00:50.380 I mean, I can think of a few defenses.

01:00:52.440 And sadly, this is very common in the criminal justice system.

01:00:56.960 The police are overworked.

01:00:58.680 You know, it's just another case.

01:01:00.440 They've got, you know, 20 calls a day.

01:01:02.900 And they just want to move to the next call and just get it resolved.

01:01:06.220 And so, they're kind of pushing to get the answer they want.

01:01:09.680 So, it's like, okay, give me the answer and we're out of here, right?

01:01:12.480 Because it's to them, at the time they're on the side of that road, it's not a big deal.

01:01:16.860 It's just another domestic violence call in the string of 20 that we dealt today, right?

01:01:20.900 But when you look at it in hindsight, it's a terrible tragedy.

01:01:24.660 And then you have the second guessing that goes on and you have the lawsuit.

01:01:28.620 But it's a heartbreaking situation, obviously.

01:01:31.380 And I think Vinny, I mean, the way he said that, that's enough to shake some pockets loose in the insurance companies.

01:01:38.060 I don't know.

01:01:38.600 I mean, the police department is saying our officers acted with kindness, respect, and empathy toward Ms. Petito.

01:01:43.760 No one could have predicted the tragedy that would occur weeks later and hundreds of miles away.

01:01:47.320 And the city of Moab will ardently defend against this lawsuit.

01:01:51.720 Those cops did spend a very long time with them, you know, for busy cops.

01:01:56.200 That exchange we just played seemed to me cops trying to get her to say what she needed to say

01:02:00.800 so that they didn't have to arrest her.

01:02:03.160 But that, again, presumes that this whole, oh, I hit him first claim is real and that we're just going to go with that,

01:02:12.160 notwithstanding the two independent witnesses, Vinny, and what we all know about domestic abuse violence or victims

01:02:17.420 and how that dynamic plays out.

01:02:19.360 Like, you know, there has to be some understanding that, come on, really?

01:02:23.140 Like, use your head.

01:02:24.600 It's pretty obvious what happened.

01:02:26.300 Go ahead.

01:02:26.560 The whole premise of this relationship and what Gabby and Brian were doing at the time is that they were living the van life.

01:02:33.560 So many domestic violence situations, right, if you have, you know, partners that are together,

01:02:39.260 a husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever it is, and they live in the same house,

01:02:43.420 they can go to separate parts of the house and kind of stay away from each other.

01:02:47.600 They were living in this van, and it's not even a full-size van.

01:02:51.380 It's like a quasi-mini van, and they are next to each other, 24 hours a day, on the road, 3,000 miles away from home.

01:03:01.860 That was part of the situation that day that they should have realized and uncovered.

01:03:07.300 But it is so quick, as you watch this video from start to finish, that they start buddying up with this murderer, Brian Laundrie,

01:03:16.360 because he's got the way to kind of smooth-talk him a little bit, and Gabby's an emotional,

01:03:21.700 mess. She's an emotional mess because this is a volatile relationship, a volatile situation, 1.00

01:03:27.040 and police didn't do what they were supposed to do. You know what? Charge them both, give them a court date,

01:03:34.320 and let the judge figure it out. That's what the protocol is. That's what they were supposed to do,

01:03:40.260 and that's what they acknowledged in the video they weren't doing.

01:03:45.000 Well, the other interesting piece is, it looks like they may have settled their lawsuit.

01:03:49.340 They got a $3 million award in their wrongful death lawsuit against the parents of Brian Laundrie.

01:03:55.080 Gabby's parents did. But they also added Brian Laundrie's parents' lawyer to their civil suit,

01:04:05.020 claiming that guy, Bertolino, came out while Gabby was still missing and not yet found,

01:04:11.020 and before Brian killed himself, he was, I think, on the run at this point,

01:04:13.780 and said, the Laundrie family hoped, quote, the search for Miss Petito is successful and that

01:04:20.260 Miss Petito is reunited with her family. And the lawyer for Gabby's parents said that statement

01:04:26.440 is downright outrageous, that that lawyer made it knowing she was dead and that Brian had killed

01:04:32.400 her. And how dare he go out there and say they hope the search for her is successful and that

01:04:36.580 she's reunited with her family. You go back and read it now as a lawyer,

01:04:39.460 and it does seem very carefully worded. It's not like we hope she's brought home alive and safely.

01:04:46.540 It's like the search for her is successful and she's reunited with her family. I mean,

01:04:53.400 that that actually could be written by a lawyer who knows she's dead. The whole thing is so creepy.

01:04:57.740 And all you really want to see is the Petitos get whatever they can get since they're the innocent

01:05:02.720 victims in this whole thing. All right, let's turn the page to another case that we had you on

01:05:07.760 on earlier. And that is the Alec Murdoch trial, which is dominating America, dominating America

01:05:15.580 right now. I've listened to so many. I can't get enough of this case because he's like, I don't

01:05:21.920 want to call him a criminal mastermind. That would be too generous. But like he's committed a lot of

01:05:27.020 crimes and gotten away with them for a really long time. And he's been very scary to the people around

01:05:35.240 him. You can kind of the prosecution is doing a good job in this case of laying out how people

01:05:39.740 were afraid of him. And now Steve's like, no, no, no, he's ready to defend. So I will go to I

01:05:46.600 recognize there's a dispute about who the most compelling witness was this week. We had the

01:05:50.940 financial testimony about all the funds he stole from clients and from his law firm. But I will give

01:05:56.820 my vote to Michelle Smith, who was a caregiver to Alec Murdoch's mother, who was not far away. And

01:06:07.460 she, I think Alec was hoping would be his alibi. Alec claims that he was asleep during the course of

01:06:13.920 the murders, you know, from 840 to 9 p.m. What the murders happened out of the dog kennel on the

01:06:18.340 property and that he woke up at nine and he went and he saw his mom who has Alzheimer's and saw the

01:06:24.060 caregiver and that he was there for some period of time, 30 to 40 minutes, and then came home and

01:06:29.320 found the bodies. The prosecution says you were there the whole time. We have videos that can prove

01:06:34.560 it. And you only went to your mother's after you had committed the crime. So the caregiver takes the

01:06:40.740 stand. And the question is, did you have any conversations with Alec that night, you know,

01:06:45.460 or in the days thereafter about his visit, you know, right around the time of the murders, at least.

01:06:50.460 And this woman, who was so sweet and so credible, gave the most compelling testimony. Here it is,

01:06:56.920 Sot 9.

01:06:58.900 And what did he say?

01:07:00.740 That he was sitting at the house. He was at the house.

01:07:03.180 And I'm not 100% following you. He was telling you or saying to you that he was at the house?

01:07:07.540 Mm-hmm.

01:07:07.960 When?

01:07:08.760 The night of the murders.

01:07:10.100 The night of the murders?

01:07:11.000 Yes.

01:07:11.780 What was he telling you about that he was at the house the night of the murders?

01:07:16.200 That he'd been there 30 to 40 minutes.

01:07:17.700 Did he indicate to you what he wanted you to do with that information?

01:07:21.160 No.

01:07:22.000 No.

01:07:22.440 What did he say?

01:07:23.740 He said that he was at the house for 30 or 40 minutes. That's it.

01:07:30.460 He said what?

01:07:37.800 Was he there 30 or 40 minutes at night?

01:07:39.640 Not to my recall.

01:07:47.360 Why are you crying?

01:07:48.080 Because he's a good family.

01:07:52.400 A good family.

01:07:53.560 And I love working here.

01:07:55.640 And I'm sorry all this happened.

01:07:58.520 Good people.

01:08:01.640 Vinny, what do you make of it?

01:08:03.940 So this is a, I think it's sort of like the passive-aggressive Alec Murdoch wielding his power and influence.

01:08:12.080 Because there's other parts of this conversation.

01:08:14.300 The first thing is, right, he's telling her how long he was there.

01:08:18.100 So he's giving her the story.

01:08:20.900 I'm here 30 to 40 minutes.

01:08:23.040 Later on in the same conversation, he says, oh, I hear you're getting married.

01:08:27.720 Weddings can be expensive.

01:08:29.040 And then sort of offers to help with the payment of the wedding.

01:08:34.600 But that can be read two different ways.

01:08:36.640 Because one of her jobs is as a caregiver for his mother.

01:08:41.000 So that expensive wedding could get much more expensive if you lose your job.

01:08:45.160 But it could get much cheaper if I help pay for it.

01:08:48.640 Then he also adds about her second job at the school that he's good friends.

01:08:54.620 Good friends with her boss, the principal.

01:08:56.580 Which could help elevate her status at work and maybe give her a higher-paying position at her other job. 0.62

01:09:03.740 Or perhaps she could lose that job.

01:09:06.720 And that's Alec Murdoch.

01:09:08.000 This poor woman, super nice, super honest. 1.00

01:09:11.520 And I think really sees the best in people all the time.

01:09:14.720 But to me, and I think to folks inside that courtroom listening to her testimony, it was clear what Alec Murdoch was trying to do.

01:09:21.680 He was trying to flex his Murdoch muscles and influence her to jump on the, oh yeah, Alec was here for 30 or 40 minutes train.

01:09:31.820 Steve, the mere fact that he would go back to her a couple days later and be like, it was 30 to 40 minutes is very suspicious.

01:09:38.760 Who goes back and tries to say, like, remember the exact length of time I was here on the night of those murders?

01:09:43.480 And the fact that she said it through tears, like, I don't, she was basically saying, I don't want to be doing this.

01:09:49.800 I don't, I don't want to testify against him as a nice family.

01:09:52.660 She didn't want to hurt him, but the truth was the truth.

01:09:55.280 And then she added, this isn't just in retrospect, she added in the moment she knew something big was happening there in that conversation.

01:10:02.820 And she, what did she do after the conversation?

01:10:05.220 Here it is in SOT 10.

01:10:08.160 Did that conversation upset you?

01:10:11.020 Somewhat.

01:10:11.940 You upset right there?

01:10:13.180 Yes.

01:10:14.340 Did you call anybody about it?

01:10:16.020 My brother.

01:10:16.500 You called your brother after that conversation with Alex?

01:10:20.380 Yes.

01:10:21.260 To tell him about that conversation?

01:10:22.780 Yes.

01:10:24.440 And her brother is a South Carolina policeman, I believe.

01:10:28.280 He's a policeman.

01:10:29.160 And she wanted to discuss what was going on.

01:10:30.560 So how do we defend against this, Steve?

01:10:33.500 Well, first off, it's a great case if the burden of proof is on the defense.

01:10:38.940 But the burden of proof is on the state.

01:10:40.940 And the state has to prove beyond an exclusion of every reasonable doubt that Mr. Murdoch killed his son and wife.

01:10:49.880 And I understand that you can look at different conversations and take these spins on it that are sinister.

01:10:57.260 And sadly, every good deed that this man has ever done in his life now becomes a basis for saying, oh, he's just a manipulator.

01:11:07.040 Now, clearly, he was a manipulator.

01:11:09.000 Clearly, he was an embezzler.

01:11:10.980 And he was really good at it because he could spin his way out of anything.

01:11:15.200 That's kind of the modus empiric.

01:11:16.560 That does not mean he killed his wife and son.

01:11:19.420 And this is the problem is, is that it's all this guilt by insinuation and innuendo circumstantial case.

01:11:26.420 What do you mean?

01:11:26.740 They're building a circumstantial case.

01:11:28.080 This is this is Peter, a piece of it.

01:11:30.960 Oh, fair enough.

01:11:31.840 But a circumstantial case required requires them to exclude a reasonable hypothesis of innocence in which there is a much more reasonable theory that is unrebutted by the state by any of their evidence has been presented so far.

01:11:45.940 Why do you go back to the caregiver and say it was 30 to 40 minutes, right, to the point where she felt uncomfortable because she knew it was much shorter than that at the time the murders were happening?

01:11:55.360 Well, I'm not certain because on the cross, I don't I think there was a little bit of equivocation on that.

01:12:01.180 And I think that she is a bit, you know, time frames like that, whether it's 20 minutes or 40 minutes.

01:12:07.500 Can you be that precise of what you did three or four days ago in a in a in a high stress situation?

01:12:14.780 And when at the time those type of time frames were not significant and not important, you know, we really not are not accounting for basic human failings of memory, which is a very common thing.

01:12:27.220 In criminal law, we see people testify to vastly different stories and they're not lying.

01:12:32.140 They're just misremembering. They're they're perceiving things different.

01:12:35.580 So and I think she may have misperceived the way he was coming back.

01:12:39.560 I mean, if this man was just all right, if that's true, Vinny, then why'd she call the brother?

01:12:44.280 Why if she was just exactly 20, 40? Why'd you call the brother?

01:12:47.800 I don't think that gets lost on the jury.

01:12:49.620 They understand when there's sort of like a shakedown kind of thing happening.

01:12:53.920 Everybody can put two and two together. Folks in the low country, they get it.

01:12:58.080 They understand it. And I think they felt it in that moment.

01:13:01.460 But it's interesting that Steve mentioned the failure of memories.

01:13:06.360 I guess that is true because Alec Murdoch forgot that he was at the scene of the murder that night before the murders.

01:13:13.920 Well, OK, so let's let's go through some of the other witness testimony that came out.

01:13:18.720 Forgive me, because I can't remember the guy's name, but the friend, he was a lifelong friend of Alex.

01:13:23.420 And he was they called him uncle, the Buster and Paul, the two sons called him uncle.

01:13:28.020 And that guy took the stand and also did not want to be testifying against Alec Murdoch.

01:13:32.840 This is a friend. This is somebody who cared for Alec and those boys.

01:13:36.700 And he said, if my memory serves, that's them on that tape.

01:13:41.580 That's Alec on that tape. You know, the audio tape that we heard that Paul took moments before the murders.

01:13:48.340 He took this tape at 8.44 p.m.

01:13:51.320 It's not been proven that it was moments before.

01:13:53.420 It was 22 was within 22 minutes of the murders from the way I understand the timeline.

01:13:58.260 So well, 8.44 p.m. is when the tape was taken.

01:14:00.820 Let me just say what I know. And then you correct me because you're following more closely.

01:14:04.200 But I thought it was 8.44 p.m. that the tape was taken and they believe the murders happened at 8.49 p.m.

01:14:09.320 No, they can't.

01:14:10.300 Well, let me just finish.

01:14:11.120 And then one of the reasons they believe that is because the wife who was murdered was she started a group text at around 8.48 and change or 8.49.00.

01:14:23.340 And then somebody pinged her asking for a response on a text like that same minute.

01:14:28.800 She didn't respond and she never picked up the phone again.

01:14:30.860 That's what the prosecution is putting into evidence.

01:14:32.660 Go ahead, Steve.

01:14:33.060 Well, the timeline there's I've been focused on this when I've been covering this stream is on streaming is that there's the 906 time frame is the key number.

01:14:45.140 So we have an 8.44 number, which is the video that video was referring to that establishes that he was at that scene.

01:14:52.900 But then there's a 22 minute gap to 906 between and at 906, two things happen.

01:14:58.660 Mr. Murdoch's car starts and he is suburban and at the same time is the last movement of the phone and the last movement.

01:15:10.260 So so basically when his car is starting, that phone is moving.

01:15:15.100 And there's another bit of missing evidence, which which is consistent with innocence.

01:15:19.080 It's consistent with somebody waiting in the back behind the shed, waiting for him to leave and go back to the house, which only takes two minutes.

01:15:26.340 And then coming out and assassinating his family members and then taking the moving the phone and disposing of it outside the thing.

01:15:34.060 Now, he goes back to the house.

01:15:35.200 He wakes up, gets in the car.

01:15:36.540 So there's a 22 minute time gap that the state is trying to compress that, but is not supported by any of the evidence that I've seen.

01:15:43.040 And there's one other little bit of evidence, too, that that we're speculating on because we were expecting much better evidence out of the forensics of the vehicle.

01:15:51.000 And that was not done. And what they evidently and I'm not a big techie guy, but the cell phone of Maggie never connected into the the the suburban.

01:16:00.360 So if it was Mr. Murdoch that killed his wife and picked up the cell phone, you would expect her cell phone to connect into the suburban as he transports it, dispose of it.

01:16:09.760 So that's another bit of evidence in the cell phone stuff that is consistent with his innocence and the theory of an assassin who is and he had a lot of enemies, as we've talked about.

01:16:19.940 Finney?

01:16:21.000 The problem with the assassin theory is that I was at the location and it is extremely quiet there.

01:16:28.860 But if there's a noise anywhere close by, it reverberates through the air.

01:16:34.200 So I don't know how he is not hearing the gunshot, the AR gunshots or the shotgun blasts before he leaves and says goodbye to Maggie and and would hear those and not check and see what's going on.

01:16:49.180 Why are there guns firing in the air? Just ignores them.

01:16:53.040 And then well, in New York, he drives to his mother's house at nine thirty at night where like nothing is happening in the low country of South Carolina.

01:17:02.040 You can't get a table at a restaurant at nine thirty at night. Those sidewalks, those streets are rolled up at sunset, which was eight twenty nine.

01:17:09.900 So that's the whole scenario of the hiding assassin.

01:17:14.900 And to me, there is no evidence of it. And if it did happen, there would be evidence of it would be Alec Murdoch hearing the gunshots.

01:17:23.440 Well, except that this is a rural hunting camp where people shoot guns and hunt all the time in South Carolina.

01:17:30.200 It's not New York City. So the fact that and also he could be in his truck or his house when the assassinations occurred.

01:17:36.580 And the fact is, is the violence. And one of the things the defense is doing throughout the trial, every state witness, they're saying he loved his family.

01:17:45.160 He loved his family. He loved his family. And there is no evidence of any kind of character that would show his kind of outrage and violence.

01:17:52.120 And because this was a very violent, evil killing. So it's much more consistent with somebody who maybe Paul was involved in, in the in the the death of this young girl in this boating accident three years earlier.

01:18:06.140 I can foresee lots of people who love that girl or were around her who wanted vengeance on Paul for not getting his comeuppance and did exactly that.

01:18:15.560 Waited in the woods, saw what it says, waited to pounce when Mr. Murdoch went back to the house.

01:18:21.300 I don't find the the he must have heard it evidence compelling at all, because there's many ways that you cannot hear gunshots.

01:18:28.640 Even the reflection of of sound, you could have echoes. There's pockets. You can be inside.

01:18:35.220 You could be in his car. You could think it's another hunting gun. There's lots of reasonable explanations why he wouldn't make note of that.

01:18:40.880 I mean, I'll say this. No one's a murderer until they are. I mean, no, no one's a murderer until they are.

01:18:45.600 So the fact that he hadn't done it before, as far as we know, isn't really all that compelling.

01:18:49.340 Although we don't know, you know, there's all sorts of evidence about what happened with that housekeeper.

01:18:53.780 How did she fall down the stairs, allegedly over a dog?

01:18:56.840 But that wasn't mentioned in the 911 call. And then she died and then he stole the wrongful death settlement with his own insurance company and didn't give it to her sons.

01:19:05.280 Like, I don't know what he did with respect to that woman or anybody else, but it's sketchy.

01:19:10.340 All right, Vinny, wait, I'm going to give you the floor as soon as we come back. Quick, quick break.

01:19:12.840 So much more to get to, including this devastating ruling on the financial crimes they're in.

01:19:17.840 And it did not go well for Alec Murdoch.

01:19:23.040 So, Vinny, yesterday the proceedings were shut down by a bomb threat being called in to the courthouse.

01:19:31.340 The judge, cool as a cucumber, quietly telling everybody it's time to leave.

01:19:37.080 Is this what's the speculation? I mean, my own is it's Alec Murdoch or somebody connected to him trying to cause a mistrial, trying to stop testimonial that he thinks is going to be bad for him.

01:19:48.640 Who else would have the motive to call in a bomb threat?

01:19:51.520 I'm not sure on who else would have the motive to do it.

01:19:55.460 I know everything was handled very well at the courthouse.

01:19:58.620 I mean, there were a lot of people inside that courtroom.

01:20:01.080 It was jam packed once again.

01:20:04.860 You know, people around the country, around the world are following the case.

01:20:08.180 It was apparently a phone threat.

01:20:10.120 So I would think that investigators will be able to track down whoever's responsible.

01:20:16.760 But if it's anyone connected to this case, that is going to be a big trouble.

01:20:22.120 Big, big trouble.

01:20:23.460 I mean, I think at this point he'd be of course, he'd be thrilled with a mistrial.

01:20:26.760 That's always a win for a defense lawyer in a criminal case.

01:20:28.940 You get another bite at the apple and you've seen the prosecution's case.

01:20:32.120 But they're steadily plugging along on the prosecution side.

01:20:35.100 Now, they put on all these financial witnesses to they had done like a show and tell with

01:20:42.140 the judge, for lack of a better term, you know, outside the presence of the jury.

01:20:45.980 They showed the judge what they were going to prove about Alex Murdoch, if given the

01:20:49.220 chance that he's a thief, stole from the client, stole from the law firm, been doing it for

01:20:53.020 10 years, millions and millions of dollars.

01:20:55.280 And the defense said, how is this relevant to Steve's point earlier this week?

01:20:58.080 How's this relevant?

01:20:59.000 He's this is a murder trial.

01:21:00.040 This isn't whether he's a bad guy or stole some money.

01:21:02.600 Well, the judge said, I believe it is they've got to show malice and motive can be relevant

01:21:09.080 to malice and the prosecution's theory that this guy was in a panic and a downward spiral

01:21:14.080 after being outed by his law firm like they they finally caught him that day.

01:21:19.700 They had a conversation with him like you're we're you're stealing.

01:21:22.740 And later that night, his family's murdered.

01:21:24.800 So it's all in.

01:21:26.860 And this is interesting because Gene Sechinger, who's the CFO of the law firm, testified that

01:21:35.020 indeed.

01:21:36.780 After the murders that night, they've been ready to gear up on Alec.

01:21:40.920 But after that, the murder that night, they had a little change of heart.

01:21:45.280 Here it is in SOT 17.

01:21:46.160 After the murders happened, was anybody at all concerned about getting the proof for those

01:21:53.920 missing fees after those murders happened at that point in time?

01:21:58.260 We weren't because we were concerned about Alec.

01:22:01.900 He wasn't working a whole lot.

01:22:04.580 He was erratic.

01:22:06.760 We knew he was taking pills.

01:22:08.760 We were just worried about his sanity.

01:22:12.840 So we weren't going to go in there and harass him about money when we were worried about

01:22:18.560 his mental state and the fact that this his family had been killed.

01:22:24.380 It just wasn't even on our mind.

01:22:28.740 Vinny.

01:22:30.220 Mission accomplished.

01:22:31.420 Right.

01:22:31.640 That's what prosecutors definitely can argue is that there was it bought him some time.

01:22:35.960 And this is why, you know, the defense is saying, well,

01:22:38.380 did it really buy him time?

01:22:39.620 It was going to catch up to him anyway.

01:22:41.300 But what prosecutors are doing is taking us into the mind of Alec Murdoch.

01:22:46.420 And you have to think about who he is and who his family is.

01:22:48.960 This is where this is all relevant.

01:22:50.760 For years, the Murdoch family had controlled things.

01:22:54.300 They controlled the criminal courts as the local solicitors or prosecutors.

01:22:58.600 Then they controlled the civil courts as having the most powerful civil law firm in that part

01:23:04.640 of South Carolina.

01:23:05.640 And they would sue huge corporations and force huge settlements.

01:23:10.680 So he's used to fixing things.

01:23:13.580 So in his mind, I think this is what prosecutors will and should argue in his mind, by giving

01:23:18.960 himself some more time, he's a Murdoch.

01:23:21.540 If I just get a little more time, I can fix this.

01:23:24.160 I can control this.

01:23:25.560 And that is what it doesn't make sense to you or I, but we're not murderers.

01:23:34.500 And you've got to get this jury out of that mindset of thinking of it like they're doing

01:23:39.840 it like, no, go inside the mind of a desperate murderer who's been committing these crimes

01:23:44.740 for over a decade, has been betraying his clients, his law partners.

01:23:50.600 And in the low country of South Carolina, all your business partners are your friends.

01:23:56.300 They're your friends.

01:23:57.500 Everybody is connected to everyone down there.

01:24:00.520 And that bond that they have is, yeah, we do business together, but then we go hunting

01:24:05.180 together.

01:24:05.780 Our families vacation together.

01:24:07.480 We boat together.

01:24:08.240 We have oyster roasts together.

01:24:10.280 I mean, that that is the ultimate.

01:24:13.060 So so you've got a picture of a man who is committing all this betrayal to all these people

01:24:17.840 who are close to him.

01:24:19.460 This is just the ultimate betrayal in a situation where drastic measures needed to be taken for

01:24:25.500 him to be able to get control of his life and his legacy and his money, which was unraveling.

01:24:33.480 So Steve, on top of all that, Nancy Grace is reporting that she was on the ground there

01:24:38.720 for two minutes before 10 people came up to her and told her that Maggie Murdoch Murdoch

01:24:43.540 was getting ready to file for divorce.

01:24:45.020 It was not a happy marriage.

01:24:46.500 And in the process of a divorce, all the financials would be laid bare.

01:24:50.360 He'd have to be putting everything on the table.

01:24:52.660 Forensic accountant would come in.

01:24:53.880 He'd get caught that.

01:24:56.160 Of course, he was facing a civil lawsuit over Paul's boating accident in which Paul allegedly

01:25:00.880 killed Mallory Beach and she was killed.

01:25:03.100 And he they say he was driving, though he was going to deny that, I think.

01:25:07.340 So both of these family members were going to.

01:25:12.460 Their their behavior was going to bring forensic accountants sniffing around in a way the lawsuit,

01:25:16.880 the law firm had just done that day.

01:25:18.700 So they're building this case of like the financial pressure building up against him.

01:25:23.300 And if they do introduce evidence of a potential divorce, the piece on Maggie will come to.

01:25:26.940 Right. Well, that's just vastly different from my perspective, perspective and view of the way

01:25:34.800 the evidence is unfolding.

01:25:35.980 And obviously, you know, maybe it's my defense perspective.

01:25:40.780 I don't really know Murdoch.

01:25:42.260 I don't know South Carolina.

01:25:43.560 I don't know this, the surroundings of this.

01:25:45.660 I'm just looking at the way the evidence is being presented.

01:25:48.160 And there was no crisis on that day, the June 7th date of the murder.

01:25:54.260 There was nothing special.

01:25:55.880 He had been stealing for 10 years.

01:25:58.080 And he's obviously they have a very strong case against him for embezzlement over many

01:26:04.200 years, obviously.

01:26:05.800 But I don't see the crescendo.

01:26:08.320 Like, basically, the state is saying that he murdered his beloved wife of many years and

01:26:13.820 his beautiful son because he needed a continuance.

01:26:17.080 But he did get confronted by the law firm that day, the day of the murders that she

01:26:24.060 went to him.

01:26:25.540 Yeah, he got caught like the house was caving in.

01:26:29.320 Well, at what point does the house cave in?

01:26:31.880 It's a 10 year cycle.

01:26:33.120 And everything, the defense, when they're coming back on these witnesses, I mean, the state's

01:26:37.660 got them dead to rights on these financial crimes.

01:26:39.520 But the question about the murder and this is being motive for murder is inconsistent with

01:26:45.840 everything that everybody says about this guy over his entire life.

01:26:50.200 The purpose for him stealing was to serve his family.

01:26:53.520 He loved his wife.

01:26:54.580 He loved his son more than anything.

01:26:56.620 And he was using this to, you know, he would fly them, give the best schools, take them

01:27:00.800 hunting.

01:27:01.300 He spent in the defense.

01:27:02.760 Every time a state witness gets up there and talks about how he stole money, he'd say,

01:27:06.560 but did he love his wife?

01:27:07.720 Did he love his son?

01:27:08.760 Did he love these people?

01:27:09.860 And it was yes, yes, yes.

01:27:11.360 There's just no evidence of this kind of animosity that would result in bloody murder of his wife

01:27:18.260 and his son.

01:27:19.040 I just it's just inconsistent with the testimony that's coming out so far.

01:27:23.520 It's, you know, the state's case not done yet, but I don't buy into that that argument.

01:27:27.840 I think instead the state is using that to make him look bad generally and therefore he's

01:27:33.900 generally guilty and they're using the motive as an excuse to get the evidence in front

01:27:38.460 of the jury, which is a no, no.

01:27:40.280 That would be a that would be overruled on appeal if an appellate court thinks that's

01:27:43.560 what the prosecution did.

01:27:44.580 Go ahead, Vinny.

01:27:46.480 Betrayal.

01:27:47.320 I mean, all the people and this is what we're talking about.

01:27:50.000 All the people who were testifying about, oh, yeah, he loved his family were friends

01:27:55.060 that he was betraying.

01:27:57.520 So that same relationship, they thought Alec was a great friend to me.

01:28:03.420 Oh, yes, my pal is my friend.

01:28:05.300 I went, you know, we take family vacations together.

01:28:08.660 They call me Uncle Ronnie, all of that.

01:28:11.940 He was betraying them for money, betraying his friends and his and friends who he considered

01:28:18.460 family for money.

01:28:20.480 So what is more important to him?

01:28:22.400 So this facade that family was the most important thing to him can be pierced because he betrayed

01:28:30.840 his friends for dollars.

01:28:32.880 He's going to betray his family to keep up whatever it is that he's going through.

01:28:37.660 And he wasn't spending all the money on his family.

01:28:39.560 He was burning through millions.

01:28:41.540 Nobody knows where that money went.

01:28:43.820 Right.

01:28:44.080 Vinny, that's one of the weirdnesses of this case.

01:28:46.160 Where is the money?

01:28:47.240 If he stole up to 10 million dollars, where is it?

01:28:49.860 He wasn't living lavishly.

01:28:51.240 He says he had a drug problem.

01:28:53.040 Ten million dollars went to the drugs.

01:28:55.620 Like, where's the dough?

01:28:57.720 Well, he was living lavishly.

01:28:59.440 I mean, this is a seventeen hundred acre hunting farm.

01:29:02.600 He had a he had a plane trip where he took his family to I think it was to the Bahamas in

01:29:06.820 a private jet.

01:29:08.400 I mean, I don't know what that costs.

01:29:09.800 He had lots of houses and he you know, he was making the amazing thing is that inside

01:29:15.040 it's an amazing trial because this guy was the senior partner of a major law firm.

01:29:20.380 He was bringing in ten million dollars a year.

01:29:23.240 And so and so seven beats into the perm for seven million.

01:29:26.680 This is why it does this snapping idea doesn't think that's OK.

01:29:30.120 So it's 70 percent of my annual income.

01:29:32.660 I can make that up consistent with his idea.

01:29:35.180 That's typical of an embezzler.

01:29:36.800 And embezzlers are not generally murderers.

01:29:39.660 That's a that's a very unusual motive.

01:29:41.920 It's a much more motive to be primal defense of a beautiful young woman who is and who has 0.99

01:29:47.760 been wrongfully killed and to take revenge.

01:29:51.420 Revenge and hostility against this family.

01:29:54.140 And this son is a much better motive than is the than is the financial motive as far as

01:29:59.620 I'm concerned.

01:30:00.220 You got to keep your eye on that.

01:30:01.400 You're not wrong that Steve.

01:30:02.480 The defense is going to beat that drum about who really had motive.

01:30:05.780 There was a group of people very angry about Mallory Beach's death.

01:30:10.040 And Paul was the one who was at the helm.

01:30:13.340 That is another viable suspect pool.

01:30:16.280 Vinny, I'll give you a quick last word.

01:30:18.340 Yeah, that that case would go nowhere.

01:30:20.620 Could you imagine if we were prosecuting the family of Mallory Beach?

01:30:24.660 People laugh us out of court because there's no evidence of it.

01:30:27.160 They investigated them zero zippo, nada, niente, evidence.

01:30:32.260 It could be friends, though.

01:30:33.700 Friends of the girl, too.

01:30:35.320 I don't know.

01:30:36.000 The investigation has not been very good either.

01:30:38.480 So let's say that's a killer to catch a killer.

01:30:41.960 Had not yet.

01:30:43.260 All right, guys, to be continued.

01:30:45.460 Look forward to seeing you hopefully next week.

01:30:47.140 Vinny and Steve, all the best.

01:30:48.580 We're going to be right back.

01:30:49.400 I'm going to tell you about something I did last night.

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01:31:15.040 perform at this hotel.

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01:32:04.840 He doesn't have salmonella.

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01:33:11.020 And you're welcome.

01:33:12.320 Before we go, I want to bring you a little addition from the MK mailbag.

01:33:15.100 You can go to Megan Kelly dot com if you want to sign up for my Friday email.

01:33:18.540 It's got all the highlights of the week and really fun clips.

01:33:21.080 I love this one from Carolyn who wrote in Megan.

01:33:23.540 There's only one concern I have as I watch you all the time.

01:33:25.740 I'm 82 years old and I've not been a person to use colorful language.

01:33:28.840 I notice when a situation really upsets you, you speak with strong, strong convictions.

01:33:33.060 As you say, F you, I find myself thinking, yes,

01:33:36.180 as you go, girl, I just hope I don't pick up that word from you.

01:33:39.940 My grandchildren would be appalled.

01:33:42.420 Carolyn, thank you.

01:33:44.160 I appreciate it.

01:33:44.820 Not everyone feels the same, but sometimes you just got to do it.

01:33:49.040 Strudwick.

01:33:49.540 Yeah, we got a lot of mail about him.

01:33:51.540 Caprice wrote in as a dog sitter.

01:33:53.140 I want you to know that Lab's puppy stage lasts about four years.

01:33:56.720 Looking forward to more tales.

01:33:57.760 He's adorable.

01:33:58.640 He is adorable.

01:33:59.460 That is the reason why I let him live and stay with me.

01:34:02.820 Not withstanding the many problems.

01:34:05.040 Lots of feedback on Roland Griffiths.

01:34:06.760 That interview, 483, if you missed it.

01:34:09.620 Gringo writes in, I almost skipped this episode.

01:34:12.560 Instead, I'm fighting back my sobs to say thank you so much for sharing Roland with us.

01:34:17.860 What a remarkable human being.

01:34:19.580 I felt the same.

01:34:21.060 Alex, too, writes in, the episode on psychedelics with Dr. Griffiths has to be one of my favorites

01:34:27.080 of yours so far.

01:34:28.020 Both his story and research are so compelling.

01:34:29.960 I understand why you got so emotional and very moving for us all.

01:34:34.220 So if you would like to email me, you can do it at megan, M-E-G-Y-N, at megankelly.com

01:34:40.080 or just go to megankelly.com to sign up for our little Friday email and I think you'll

01:34:45.060 be really pleased with what we send you.

01:34:46.800 It's super fun.

01:34:47.760 All right, see you tomorrow, guys.

01:34:50.540 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:34:52.640 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:34:55.240 No BS.

01:34:59.960 No BS.

01:35:12.480 No BS.

01:35:16.480 No BS.

01:35:17.300 No BS.

01:35:17.660 No BS.

01:35:18.500 No BS.

The Megyn Kelly Show - February 09, 2023

Fetterman Hospitalized, Hunter Hearing, and Murdaugh Fireworks, with Rich Lowry, Miranda Devine, Vinnie Politan, and More ｜ Ep. 490

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