The Megyn Kelly Show - Free Speech Pushback, the Gift of Fear, and Dangers of Fame, with Gavin de Becker

00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:02.160 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:03.760 I started wondering,

00:00:05.440 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:08.560 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans.

00:00:11.260 Are those from Winners?

00:00:12.780 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings?

00:00:15.260 Did she pay full price?

00:00:16.600 Or that leather tote?

00:00:17.620 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:18.840 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:20.280 That dress?

00:00:21.060 That jacket?

00:00:21.740 Those shoes?

00:00:22.760 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:25.720 Stop wondering.

00:00:26.980 Start winning.

00:00:27.920 Winners.

00:00:28.500 Find fabulous for less.

00:00:30.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.520 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:41.880 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.540 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.140 A very, very special show for you today

00:00:47.480 that I have been wanting to bring to you for years.

00:00:50.920 For the next two hours,

00:00:52.980 I am going to be speaking with renowned security expert.

00:00:55.100 I mean, this is the security expert in the world,

00:00:58.540 not just the U.S.

00:00:59.320 and best-selling author Gavin DeBecker.

00:01:02.540 Gavin's clients include, quote,

00:01:04.420 the world's most famous and the world's most anonymous.

00:01:08.240 Among them, the CIA, the U.S. Marshals,

00:01:10.800 the U.S. Supreme Court,

00:01:12.320 Hollywood celebrities, athletes, politicians,

00:01:15.420 and for a while, even me.

00:01:18.300 He's the author of many, many books,

00:01:20.160 including the New York Times bestseller,

00:01:22.420 The Gift of Fear,

00:01:23.540 Survival Signs That Protect Us from Violence.

00:01:27.560 Oprah once said it was the most important book she ever read.

00:01:30.080 I feel 100% the same.

00:01:32.040 Gwendolyn is here with me today.

00:01:33.260 She's my intern for the summer.

00:01:35.000 Her dad's making her read this

00:01:36.760 before she goes off to college,

00:01:38.640 and I couldn't agree with that decision more.

00:01:40.960 Everyone should read this.

00:01:42.080 Young women, young men,

00:01:43.540 older women and men.

00:01:44.460 And it is a survival guide

00:01:48.160 to just being a human on this earth

00:01:50.580 where there are predators

00:01:51.800 in more pockets than you'd think.

00:01:54.700 Gavin says that when you feel fear,

00:01:56.520 it's an intuition.

00:01:58.140 It's a gift that you must,

00:02:00.360 must listen to and act on.

00:02:02.260 Fear should preside over logical reasoning, even.

00:02:06.420 Gavin learned about dealing with real fear

00:02:08.080 early on in his life.

00:02:09.540 His mother was a heroin addict.

00:02:11.080 When he was just 10 years old,

00:02:12.980 he watched her shoot his stepfather.

00:02:15.980 He was 16 when she committed suicide.

00:02:18.480 For a short time,

00:02:19.720 he moved in with a friend from school,

00:02:22.140 and that boy's mother

00:02:22.980 happened to be actress Rosemary Clooney,

00:02:26.040 probably best known for her role

00:02:27.240 in Bing Crosby's White Christmas.

00:02:29.740 A few years passed by,

00:02:30.960 and the next thing Gavin knows,

00:02:32.200 he's 19 years old

00:02:33.440 and an assistant to

00:02:35.200 the biggest star on the planet at the time,

00:02:37.660 Elizabeth Taylor and Robert Burton.

00:02:39.680 He would go on to help figures

00:02:42.740 like Olivia Newton-John

00:02:44.160 deal with not one,

00:02:45.460 but two horrific stalkers.

00:02:49.000 And one of those stalkers

00:02:50.280 also targeted Supreme Court Justice

00:02:52.760 Sandra Day O'Connor.

00:02:54.920 So the security issues

00:02:55.860 our justices are dealing with today

00:02:57.320 in the wake of the Roe decision,

00:02:59.260 Gavin DeBecker knows very well

00:03:01.240 how dangerous they are

00:03:03.120 for these justices.

00:03:05.220 We're also living with rising crime rates

00:03:07.220 nationwide,

00:03:08.000 and Americans are scared.

00:03:09.680 So we're going to talk about

00:03:10.860 ways to protect yourself

00:03:11.820 and how to know

00:03:12.900 when you really are in danger

00:03:14.660 as we dive into Gavin's

00:03:16.240 fascinating life and career.

00:03:22.440 Gavin DeBecker,

00:03:23.320 welcome to the show.

00:03:24.540 Thank you so much.

00:03:25.360 Thank you so much.

00:03:26.180 Glad to be here.

00:03:26.980 And I just listened to

00:03:27.860 your whole introduction,

00:03:28.980 and I feel like I've been

00:03:30.040 to my own funeral.

00:03:31.020 It was very nice.

00:03:32.220 It feels like it's impossible

00:03:33.220 to believe you've done all this stuff.

00:03:35.180 But knowing your bio,

00:03:36.720 you started very young.

00:03:38.020 You were selected by President Reagan

00:03:39.840 to work on security issues

00:03:41.260 when you were just 26 years old.

00:03:44.300 So that explains it,

00:03:45.280 because you're in your young 60s now.

00:03:48.500 How old are you?

00:03:49.240 67.

00:03:50.280 And when Reagan appointed me

00:03:52.360 to his advisory board

00:03:53.360 at the Department of Justice,

00:03:54.120 I was 26.

00:03:55.040 He was the oldest president.

00:03:56.260 I was the youngest presidential appointee.

00:03:58.840 And I didn't even know him,

00:04:01.060 as you don't know presidents.

00:04:02.080 I knew him very tangentially.

00:04:03.380 But in later years,

00:04:04.840 came to know him better

00:04:05.740 and came to know Nancy better as well.

00:04:07.820 And he gave me great opportunities.

00:04:11.060 And then Bush appointed me

00:04:12.380 to another advisory board.

00:04:14.600 And I had extraordinary opportunities.

00:04:19.200 That's the gift I got.

00:04:21.540 Well, and when I look at your life history,

00:04:23.780 it seems like it created,

00:04:25.920 I mean, it explains perfectly

00:04:27.140 how you've reached the success

00:04:28.420 that you have in the industry

00:04:29.620 that you have.

00:04:30.260 Um, not only we mentioned

00:04:32.320 your exposure to the world of celebrity

00:04:34.600 fairly early on

00:04:35.900 and mega celebrity,

00:04:37.220 not just mild,

00:04:38.480 um, but your own history

00:04:40.140 and your family

00:04:40.700 with your mom

00:04:41.500 and, uh, domestic violence.

00:04:43.860 And it just seems like

00:04:45.160 all of that

00:04:46.100 sort of made you perfectly suited

00:04:47.840 for a life in the security industry.

00:04:49.960 I suppose you would say

00:04:51.380 could have gone the other way,

00:04:53.100 right?

00:04:53.320 Like a lot of people

00:04:54.660 who experience really violent childhoods

00:04:57.100 go a different way.

00:04:58.120 So what do you think made you

00:05:00.660 wind up so, so, so well,

00:05:03.860 emotionally, mentally

00:05:04.760 and fighting crime

00:05:05.720 instead of succumbing

00:05:07.200 to a world of it?

00:05:08.860 Instead of committing crimes.

00:05:10.260 Yeah, I definitely went

00:05:11.160 to the crime school,

00:05:12.440 no question.

00:05:13.240 And I remember, uh,

00:05:14.820 many years ago

00:05:15.400 before I wrote Gift of Fear,

00:05:16.760 I was, uh, speaking

00:05:18.000 at prisons around the country

00:05:19.740 where I would meet with people

00:05:21.320 and, uh, and talk with them

00:05:23.200 about violence

00:05:24.400 and about their upbringing,

00:05:25.700 et cetera.

00:05:26.060 And we went around the room

00:05:27.560 at one of these events

00:05:28.440 with a group of people

00:05:29.440 who some had murdered

00:05:30.800 their children.

00:05:31.700 Some had, uh, one guy,

00:05:33.420 I remember, had, uh,

00:05:35.140 burned an apartment house, uh, down

00:05:37.600 and a guy died inside.

00:05:38.880 I mean, they, they were, you know,

00:05:40.220 serious crimes

00:05:41.020 that these guys had committed.

00:05:42.480 And, uh, and then we went

00:05:43.820 around the room

00:05:44.320 and each shared a little bit

00:05:45.380 about our childhood.

00:05:46.740 And, um, uh, when I was done,

00:05:49.200 one guy, muscular tattoos, uh, said,

00:05:52.340 what are you doing

00:05:53.020 sitting over there?

00:05:53.860 And I said, what do you mean?

00:05:54.940 And he said, well,

00:05:55.840 why are you sitting over there

00:05:57.080 and I'm sitting over here?

00:05:58.220 Why are you in that nice suit

00:05:59.500 and you're getting to go home today

00:06:00.620 in a nice car

00:06:01.380 and I'm sitting over here?

00:06:02.720 And it was a, you know,

00:06:03.900 a question I had considered a lot.

00:06:05.720 What were the factors

00:06:06.840 that made it possible

00:06:08.520 for me to take

00:06:09.400 the experiences I had?

00:06:11.220 My mother, a heroin addict,

00:06:12.740 uh, that brought into our lives,

00:06:14.460 the whole, uh, you know,

00:06:15.740 into the orbit of our lives,

00:06:17.160 the whole group of people

00:06:18.100 you would imagine, uh,

00:06:19.520 would, uh, would be part of the need

00:06:21.380 to get that heroin every day.

00:06:23.420 Okay. And, uh, uh,

00:06:25.060 and then, uh, she shot my stepfather,

00:06:27.560 uh, in front of me

00:06:28.580 when I was, uh, 10 years old.

00:06:30.840 Uh, I saw that was not the first time

00:06:33.180 that gun had gone off in the house.

00:06:34.520 I think by the time

00:06:35.280 we moved out of that house,

00:06:36.300 there were nine bullets

00:06:37.800 embedded in the walls

00:06:38.820 and in the floor.

00:06:39.500 And so I had seen a great deal

00:06:41.440 like these men

00:06:42.300 that I was sitting with

00:06:43.120 in the prison

00:06:43.680 and asking myself,

00:06:45.020 why was my circumstance

00:06:46.980 now as an adult so different?

00:06:49.420 And how did I take that,

00:06:50.780 that raw material

00:06:52.520 and turn it into something,

00:06:54.260 you know, better

00:06:55.000 than it could have been?

00:06:56.060 And I think the answer is

00:06:58.200 aside from God, universe,

00:07:01.360 whatever one chooses

00:07:02.840 to, uh, to identify

00:07:04.320 as a higher power,

00:07:05.420 aside from that,

00:07:07.280 uh, I think it is

00:07:09.240 that I had a few witnesses

00:07:10.580 in my life,

00:07:11.520 just a few people

00:07:12.520 who, uh, saw my circumstance

00:07:14.840 and told me

00:07:16.880 that I was the resident

00:07:18.520 of that house,

00:07:19.640 not the architect of that house,

00:07:21.280 and that I was, uh, uh,

00:07:23.520 you know, not the creator

00:07:25.440 and the responsible person

00:07:26.740 for all the drama

00:07:28.340 and trauma in my life.

00:07:29.940 And I really believe it takes,

00:07:31.240 I had a fifth grade teacher,

00:07:32.500 by the way,

00:07:33.080 I'm just remembering now,

00:07:33.960 Mr. Conway,

00:07:34.880 and he picked me

00:07:36.580 from the group of students

00:07:37.760 to do skits with

00:07:39.200 and to do various, uh, things,

00:07:41.440 you know, where he had a choice

00:07:42.380 of who he could pick

00:07:43.220 and gave me a feeling

00:07:44.580 of specialness

00:07:45.460 when, uh, when I didn't

00:07:47.180 have that otherwise.

00:07:48.480 And that sounds very small,

00:07:50.420 fifth grade teacher,

00:07:51.420 10 years old,

00:07:52.500 a few experiences with him,

00:07:54.620 but it's not small.

00:07:55.800 What I've learned is that

00:07:57.160 if a, uh, if a young person

00:07:59.200 has any adult

00:08:00.340 who sees something more in them

00:08:03.540 than they see in themselves,

00:08:04.880 just these tiny moments

00:08:06.920 make an enormous difference

00:08:08.660 to the course of your life.

00:08:10.800 I also want to say that,

00:08:12.240 you know, my experience,

00:08:13.900 you can sort of draw

00:08:14.640 a straight line

00:08:15.400 between violence

00:08:16.860 in my childhood,

00:08:17.980 all the people

00:08:18.640 who were in my childhood

00:08:19.880 that I learned from

00:08:20.940 and experienced,

00:08:21.760 and then what I ultimately did,

00:08:24.000 which is became

00:08:24.720 kind of an ambassador

00:08:25.780 between the two worlds,

00:08:27.700 between the world of violence

00:08:28.960 and the world of,

00:08:29.720 of protection and safety

00:08:31.500 and wanting to protect people.

00:08:33.000 And as I look at that,

00:08:34.820 I think many lives

00:08:36.100 have a journey

00:08:37.340 with a line that straight,

00:08:38.700 which is, you know,

00:08:39.660 you experienced injustice

00:08:40.820 as a child

00:08:41.680 and you grow up to be a lawyer.

00:08:43.820 Uh, maybe you,

00:08:44.760 you experience, uh,

00:08:46.240 violence as a child

00:08:47.240 and you grow up

00:08:47.720 to be a police officer,

00:08:48.740 uh, or you experience

00:08:50.120 a terrible medical trauma

00:08:51.340 and you grow up

00:08:51.980 to be a doctor.

00:08:52.920 I think all of us

00:08:54.480 with work

00:08:55.600 can find that straight line

00:08:57.520 as to why we do

00:08:58.780 what we do,

00:08:59.580 uh, particularly,

00:09:00.520 and this goes for you

00:09:02.140 and me both,

00:09:02.920 those of us

00:09:03.440 who are lucky to do

00:09:04.560 what you could say

00:09:05.480 we're, we're here on earth

00:09:06.560 to do or what we're meant to do.

00:09:08.360 Uh, so I won't ask you

00:09:10.100 the questions

00:09:10.580 of what it is

00:09:11.180 in your life experience

00:09:12.260 that brings you

00:09:12.900 to an interest in,

00:09:13.820 in justice and truth.

00:09:15.740 Uh, but it's something

00:09:17.020 to think about.

00:09:18.100 Yeah, no, I,

00:09:19.140 you're a hundred percent right.

00:09:20.080 And I know certainly

00:09:20.880 my selection of the law

00:09:22.240 as my first career

00:09:23.120 was directly related

00:09:24.480 to some bad bullying

00:09:25.800 that I experienced

00:09:26.600 when I was in the seventh grade

00:09:27.780 and just an intolerance

00:09:29.360 for bullies.

00:09:29.980 And, and that's also been true

00:09:32.100 in my journalism career.

00:09:33.300 You know, to be honest,

00:09:34.140 it's, it, part of the fun

00:09:36.220 of this job

00:09:36.940 is holding powerful jerks

00:09:39.620 to account.

00:09:40.520 I really enjoy that piece of it,

00:09:41.900 you know, whether it's

00:09:42.940 directly in an interview

00:09:44.020 or just covering them

00:09:46.140 and exposing them

00:09:47.920 for what they are.

00:09:48.840 So there's a through line there,

00:09:50.340 which I had,

00:09:51.800 had some pain in my life,

00:09:52.920 but I can't compare it

00:09:53.860 to what you went through.

00:09:55.340 I mean, it must've been

00:09:56.340 so shocking

00:09:56.760 because you had such

00:09:57.500 a traumatic early childhood

00:09:59.060 and then to flip to,

00:10:01.140 you know, Rosemary Clooney

00:10:03.060 and forget Liz Taylor.

00:10:04.820 I was more interested

00:10:05.560 that you knew Sean Cassidy.

00:10:07.320 Okay.

00:10:07.780 At Beverly Hills.

00:10:08.640 All right.

00:10:09.200 I'll tell him by the way,

00:10:10.140 we're still,

00:10:10.680 we're still super close friends.

00:10:13.300 We call each other brothers

00:10:14.700 and I'll tell him

00:10:15.380 of your interest.

00:10:16.680 Oh my God.

00:10:17.120 I had a life-size photo

00:10:18.900 of him on the back,

00:10:20.200 a post poster

00:10:20.920 on the back of my bedroom door.

00:10:22.600 I mean, in love.

00:10:24.380 So yes, I,

00:10:25.000 I may need to use this connection

00:10:26.720 at some point.

00:10:28.060 So yes, you're,

00:10:28.960 you're immersed now in like,

00:10:30.640 and the Elizabeth Taylor thing

00:10:31.700 is like the biggest of the big,

00:10:33.240 you know,

00:10:33.440 like that you couldn't find

00:10:34.380 a bigger star

00:10:35.140 on earth than Liz Taylor.

00:10:37.040 And so the juxtaposition,

00:10:39.160 right,

00:10:39.380 of where you were zero to 10

00:10:40.880 versus what,

00:10:42.120 I guess about 15 to 25,

00:10:43.780 pretty dramatic.

00:10:45.180 It was.

00:10:45.940 And I want to make an observation

00:10:47.300 that you said,

00:10:48.160 you know,

00:10:48.440 your circumstance

00:10:49.560 was not as bad as,

00:10:51.920 or as dramatic as mine.

00:10:53.400 What I've learned

00:10:54.500 is that,

00:10:55.320 uh,

00:10:56.080 everybody's worst day

00:10:57.560 in their childhood,

00:10:58.780 everybody's worst disappointment

00:11:00.100 or disillusionment

00:11:01.960 or abandonment

00:11:03.700 or feeling of abandonment

00:11:04.840 is equal

00:11:05.880 because it's relative

00:11:06.920 to the rest of their life.

00:11:08.200 It's not relative.

00:11:09.100 Like I had a,

00:11:10.080 you know,

00:11:10.300 a tremendous amount of drama

00:11:11.520 such that things

00:11:12.500 that would be,

00:11:13.340 you know,

00:11:13.960 very overpowering

00:11:15.460 to some people

00:11:16.100 were just another Tuesday

00:11:17.340 for me.

00:11:17.960 And then among those,

00:11:19.080 some that were

00:11:19.680 really quite profoundly

00:11:21.100 traumatic for me.

00:11:22.540 Uh,

00:11:22.900 but,

00:11:23.340 but I don't buy into the idea

00:11:25.180 that,

00:11:26.220 uh,

00:11:26.600 that my experience

00:11:27.640 is really any different

00:11:28.580 from anybody else's

00:11:29.600 in terms of it's,

00:11:30.960 in one way,

00:11:31.720 it's actually easier

00:11:32.660 because I can look back

00:11:33.720 and say,

00:11:34.100 oh,

00:11:34.200 that's bad.

00:11:35.000 That's objectively bad.

00:11:36.420 But the person

00:11:37.400 whose father

00:11:38.240 is messing with their mind

00:11:40.380 or is a abusive stepfather

00:11:42.500 or abusive mother

00:11:44.180 in terms of demeaning someone

00:11:45.760 or any of these things

00:11:46.900 or not protecting them,

00:11:47.960 you know,

00:11:48.260 they're bullied at school

00:11:49.180 and they say,

00:11:49.740 oh,

00:11:49.840 well,

00:11:49.940 you can handle it yourself.

00:11:51.580 Really,

00:11:52.100 it's,

00:11:52.360 it's equal

00:11:52.940 because it's relative

00:11:54.440 to the rest

00:11:55.720 of our experience.

00:11:56.460 And I remember

00:11:57.140 when I,

00:11:57.740 uh,

00:11:58.060 did enter the life

00:11:59.440 of,

00:11:59.680 let's say,

00:12:00.000 Rosemary Clooney,

00:12:01.440 it was actually

00:12:02.140 very familiar to me.

00:12:03.400 Both Rosemary

00:12:04.180 and Elizabeth

00:12:04.820 were,

00:12:05.520 uh,

00:12:05.840 were drug addicts,

00:12:07.040 uh,

00:12:07.380 and,

00:12:07.740 and alcoholics.

00:12:08.740 And so I knew

00:12:09.820 that territory very well

00:12:11.060 because my mother

00:12:11.800 was addicted to,

00:12:12.920 uh,

00:12:13.540 various pharmaceutical drugs

00:12:14.880 and then also to heroin.

00:12:15.920 And so,

00:12:17.020 um,

00:12:17.700 I remember times

00:12:19.160 with Elizabeth Taylor

00:12:20.200 and Richard Burton

00:12:20.940 that they must've thought,

00:12:22.940 man,

00:12:23.380 this kid can really take it

00:12:24.540 because they were

00:12:25.420 in massive drama.

00:12:26.660 They were two,

00:12:27.880 um,

00:12:28.940 alcoholics,

00:12:29.860 very emotionally invested

00:12:31.840 and very dramatic,

00:12:33.200 i.e.

00:12:33.640 movie stars as well.

00:12:35.100 And so,

00:12:36.020 uh,

00:12:36.360 and I just wouldn't,

00:12:37.580 it wouldn't make my heart rate go up

00:12:39.220 because I'd seen so much.

00:12:40.620 And Elizabeth

00:12:41.500 was the most famous woman

00:12:43.440 in the world

00:12:43.960 in a time

00:12:44.760 when there were really only

00:12:45.880 three really famous women

00:12:48.040 in the world.

00:12:48.860 Elizabeth,

00:12:49.380 Jackie Onassis,

00:12:50.160 and the Queen of England.

00:12:51.400 Marilyn Monroe

00:12:52.000 had already died.

00:12:53.340 And so now we have,

00:12:54.300 you know,

00:12:54.580 hundreds of media figures

00:12:55.620 that people know who they are

00:12:57.180 or follow them in some way.

00:12:58.500 But in those days,

00:12:59.340 there were really three.

00:13:00.980 And,

00:13:01.080 and Elizabeth Taylor was,

00:13:03.080 I mean,

00:13:03.360 to look over in,

00:13:04.400 you know,

00:13:04.840 in traffic

00:13:05.620 and the next car

00:13:06.540 and see Elizabeth Taylor

00:13:07.600 in the car,

00:13:08.240 all I saw

00:13:09.200 for the years

00:13:10.140 that I was with her

00:13:11.100 was faces aghast.

00:13:14.380 Everybody,

00:13:15.120 everywhere like that.

00:13:16.320 If we,

00:13:16.620 I'm sure,

00:13:17.320 you know,

00:13:17.820 if we put her car,

00:13:19.780 whatever country we were in,

00:13:20.880 if we put the car

00:13:21.640 outside the hotel,

00:13:22.900 there'd be 2,000 people

00:13:23.860 outside the hotel right away.

00:13:25.080 I remember

00:13:25.600 when we went to Israel

00:13:27.780 and I'm laughing at myself

00:13:29.600 because I looked out

00:13:30.820 the window

00:13:31.340 of the jet,

00:13:32.900 regular commercial flight

00:13:34.040 landing in Israel,

00:13:34.820 and I thought,

00:13:36.100 man,

00:13:36.420 there were thousands of people

00:13:37.560 all over the runway.

00:13:38.780 And I thought,

00:13:39.820 man,

00:13:39.980 this country is really disorganized.

00:13:41.600 I had,

00:13:42.080 it never occurred to me

00:13:43.140 that it was because

00:13:43.800 Elizabeth was on the,

00:13:44.820 was on the plane.

00:13:46.020 But,

00:13:46.220 so I learned a lot

00:13:47.460 and it was a,

00:13:48.360 a much different,

00:13:49.880 you know,

00:13:50.380 a tremendous contrast

00:13:51.820 to poverty

00:13:53.040 and food stamps

00:13:54.640 and welfare

00:13:55.460 that I grew up on.

00:13:56.700 That part was in contrast,

00:13:58.220 but the turmoil

00:14:00.120 was the same.

00:14:02.000 It was a different flavor

00:14:03.080 of the same soup.

00:14:04.340 Hmm.

00:14:05.260 I,

00:14:05.460 I know that you've said

00:14:06.800 something to the effect of,

00:14:07.920 I sound like the,

00:14:09.120 the witness who testified

00:14:10.260 before Congress yesterday,

00:14:11.560 something to the effect of,

00:14:13.020 you said,

00:14:13.920 you began to understand

00:14:15.360 the dangers of fame

00:14:16.680 and what you called

00:14:18.320 the marketing of human beings.

00:14:20.500 That intrigues me.

00:14:22.100 What do you mean by that?

00:14:23.940 Well,

00:14:24.140 that really,

00:14:24.820 you know,

00:14:25.240 around the Frank Sinatra time

00:14:27.000 in,

00:14:27.240 in 1948,

00:14:28.020 when he first,

00:14:29.900 uh,

00:14:30.400 was seen by record companies

00:14:32.520 as able to exploit

00:14:34.140 a new market,

00:14:35.240 which was young people.

00:14:36.340 Remember young people before,

00:14:37.940 uh,

00:14:38.620 were not buyers of records

00:14:40.340 and they weren't even buyers

00:14:41.280 of records in the early Sinatra days,

00:14:42.860 but they were forcers

00:14:43.920 of their parents

00:14:45.040 to buy them records.

00:14:46.160 And so that beginning

00:14:47.460 of the relationship

00:14:49.000 with media figures

00:14:51.060 and public figures

00:14:51.900 that started with Frank Sinatra

00:14:53.540 and of course goes through

00:14:54.460 Elvis Presley

00:14:55.220 and the Beatles

00:14:55.860 and now so many public figures

00:14:58.160 where people believe,

00:15:00.200 and you'll relate to this

00:15:01.080 because I know

00:15:01.700 you would have experienced it.

00:15:02.900 People believe

00:15:03.520 because they've got you

00:15:04.360 on this little screen

00:15:05.120 in their house

00:15:05.760 that they've got you,

00:15:07.120 that there's a real relationship there.

00:15:08.840 And,

00:15:09.080 you know,

00:15:09.180 like I know Johnny Carson

00:15:11.340 or a talk show host,

00:15:12.980 I know how they would react.

00:15:14.240 I know what he would think of this,

00:15:15.640 but it is really

00:15:16.840 a fraudulent reality

00:15:18.660 that people know.

00:15:19.720 It is not knowing people for real.

00:15:21.880 It's knowing a projection.

00:15:23.480 And I mean literally a projection,

00:15:25.300 a psychological projection

00:15:26.460 from the person

00:15:27.240 and also literally

00:15:28.480 a projection on the screen.

00:15:30.360 And so fame changed a lot

00:15:32.380 in that,

00:15:33.520 in the early Sinatra days

00:15:34.780 and then through Elvis Beatles,

00:15:36.540 et cetera, et cetera,

00:15:37.220 such that the Beatles,

00:15:39.900 you know,

00:15:40.220 one of the Beatles,

00:15:40.900 George Harrison,

00:15:41.460 said that the world

00:15:43.140 went crazy

00:15:43.920 and used us

00:15:45.200 as the excuse.

00:15:46.340 And that's really true.

00:15:47.780 You become an object

00:15:49.020 of merchandise,

00:15:51.100 a piece of merchandise

00:15:51.840 that others can use.

00:15:53.400 And the only four people

00:15:54.920 on earth

00:15:55.580 who didn't experience

00:15:57.160 the Beatles

00:15:57.720 were the Beatles.

00:15:59.780 They didn't have something

00:16:01.180 to look out at

00:16:02.040 and see

00:16:02.660 and chase around

00:16:04.480 in cars

00:16:05.400 and what have you.

00:16:06.080 And so the nature

00:16:07.400 of fame changed so much

00:16:08.940 and it is now,

00:16:10.240 you know,

00:16:10.900 in,

00:16:11.240 in,

00:16:12.200 let's see,

00:16:13.180 1981,

00:16:15.320 a mentally ill person

00:16:17.520 who was obsessed

00:16:18.300 with a movie star,

00:16:19.820 Jodie Foster,

00:16:21.040 shot a president

00:16:22.400 who used to be

00:16:23.260 a movie star

00:16:24.280 and it all kind of

00:16:25.360 came together

00:16:26.040 in this,

00:16:27.000 you know,

00:16:27.480 bizarre way

00:16:28.140 that it is now.

00:16:29.040 And now,

00:16:30.180 of course,

00:16:30.680 John Hinckley

00:16:31.140 was just released

00:16:32.620 without restrictions

00:16:33.400 just in the last

00:16:34.260 couple of weeks.

00:16:35.000 The shooter,

00:16:35.500 of Ronald Reagan.

00:16:36.920 I realize not

00:16:37.520 every audience member

00:16:38.400 remembers the story

00:16:40.080 as well as I do.

00:16:41.520 Right,

00:16:41.820 right.

00:16:42.460 I mean,

00:16:42.780 I've,

00:16:43.040 I've distinguished

00:16:43.840 my own experience

00:16:45.500 in the public eye

00:16:46.260 as there's sort of

00:16:47.720 Megyn Kelly,

00:16:48.560 the brand

00:16:49.160 that people write about

00:16:50.260 in papers

00:16:51.040 and then there's

00:16:52.020 the real me

00:16:52.820 and it's helped me

00:16:54.500 not to take the

00:16:55.380 criticism so seriously

00:16:56.740 and not to get bothered

00:16:57.880 by,

00:16:58.620 you know,

00:16:58.740 this caricature of myself

00:17:00.020 that people talk about

00:17:01.240 because they're really

00:17:02.380 talking about

00:17:03.000 MK,

00:17:03.440 the brand,

00:17:03.940 which is fair game

00:17:05.580 and something

00:17:06.220 that I've put out there

00:17:07.320 and,

00:17:08.280 you know,

00:17:08.700 I do reveal a lot

00:17:09.640 about myself

00:17:10.100 on my show

00:17:10.800 and my audience

00:17:11.700 probably knows me

00:17:12.500 much better

00:17:13.000 than anybody

00:17:13.360 who writes about me

00:17:14.060 in a newspaper magazine

00:17:15.660 but then there's

00:17:16.880 this category

00:17:17.460 of people

00:17:17.920 that thinks

00:17:18.520 that they have

00:17:19.860 an intimate

00:17:20.420 connection with you

00:17:21.480 and those,

00:17:22.020 those are unwell people,

00:17:23.560 you know,

00:17:23.760 like that,

00:17:24.480 you've dealt a lot

00:17:25.620 with that in your career

00:17:26.640 and I definitely

00:17:27.020 want to get to that,

00:17:28.120 the Rebecca Schaefer case,

00:17:29.840 my own stalking cases,

00:17:31.720 I mean,

00:17:32.160 this is such

00:17:32.840 a pernicious threat

00:17:33.760 and so it's sort of

00:17:35.780 where I would like

00:17:36.620 to kick that off

00:17:37.240 is with what's happening

00:17:38.180 with our Supreme Court

00:17:38.880 right now.

00:17:39.740 It's not that Justice Kavanaugh

00:17:40.940 was stalked by this guy

00:17:42.680 but this guy

00:17:44.240 meant to do him harm

00:17:45.340 who's been arrested

00:17:46.220 because he wound up calling,

00:17:47.600 this is a new detail

00:17:48.360 I hadn't heard,

00:17:48.900 he called his sister

00:17:49.620 before he was going to

00:17:50.980 assassinate Justice Kavanaugh

00:17:52.180 and the sister convinced him

00:17:53.840 to call 911.

00:17:54.780 God bless that sister.

00:17:56.140 I mean,

00:17:56.720 thank God

00:17:57.300 she told him

00:17:58.040 to do the right thing

00:17:58.800 and the justice's life

00:18:01.000 was saved

00:18:01.400 as a result of that

00:18:02.260 but Amy Coney Barrett

00:18:03.680 now is having protesters

00:18:04.760 outside of her house

00:18:05.680 still,

00:18:06.720 you know,

00:18:06.900 these nine,

00:18:07.900 they're public servants,

00:18:09.440 you know,

00:18:09.560 they're civic servants

00:18:10.440 trying to just do their jobs

00:18:12.620 have to deal with

00:18:13.660 real death threats

00:18:15.140 at the level of like

00:18:16.560 a Tom Cruise

00:18:17.400 that they should not

00:18:18.960 have to deal with

00:18:19.700 and I know you've been

00:18:20.320 intimately involved

00:18:21.020 in trying to keep them safe

00:18:22.220 for a long, long time

00:18:23.160 so what do you make

00:18:24.180 of what's happening

00:18:24.800 right now with them?

00:18:26.280 Well,

00:18:26.520 I think for me,

00:18:28.180 the home

00:18:29.000 where somebody lives

00:18:30.280 is not part of their

00:18:31.720 public life

00:18:32.360 or public service

00:18:33.220 so for me,

00:18:34.000 always in my career,

00:18:35.380 I expected people

00:18:36.560 to show up at NBC

00:18:37.600 or CBS

00:18:38.100 or ABC

00:18:38.640 or the movie company

00:18:40.120 or any of those places

00:18:41.180 in pursuit of an encounter

00:18:43.480 with somebody,

00:18:44.600 even somebody

00:18:45.260 they were obsessed with

00:18:46.380 if that's the case.

00:18:47.940 You know,

00:18:48.480 that sort of

00:18:49.080 goes with the territory

00:18:50.420 that you'll take

00:18:51.380 extra precautions

00:18:52.560 when you're

00:18:53.280 at your work environment,

00:18:55.100 newsroom

00:18:55.720 or TV station

00:18:56.620 or whatever it is.

00:18:57.840 When it goes

00:18:58.980 to the home,

00:19:00.440 I think it is

00:19:01.760 blurring the line

00:19:02.900 between someone's

00:19:04.520 private life

00:19:05.680 and their public life

00:19:07.040 and I really dislike it

00:19:08.740 and it's happened

00:19:09.240 in so many circumstances,

00:19:10.640 often mentally ill people,

00:19:12.080 but it's also protesters.

00:19:14.560 We had out

00:19:15.240 in Southern California

00:19:16.320 big protests

00:19:17.520 at the home

00:19:18.580 of a prosecutor,

00:19:19.780 not the current prosecutor

00:19:20.720 but the prosecutor before

00:19:21.980 and, you know,

00:19:23.740 such that

00:19:24.260 you can't get in

00:19:25.540 and out of your house

00:19:26.280 comfortably

00:19:27.180 without knowing,

00:19:29.220 you know,

00:19:29.520 without a feeling

00:19:30.120 of safety

00:19:30.980 that everybody's

00:19:31.760 entitled to.

00:19:32.540 So I really do

00:19:34.100 draw the line

00:19:36.200 at things at home.

00:19:37.460 I think it's very wrong.

00:19:38.480 I would like to see

00:19:39.520 that the police officials

00:19:42.540 would close the street

00:19:43.980 so that protesters

00:19:46.880 are moved back

00:19:47.900 and can have their protest

00:19:49.480 and get whatever

00:19:50.300 media coverage

00:19:51.000 they can get

00:19:51.580 but not have an impact

00:19:53.140 on somebody

00:19:53.640 while they're walking

00:19:54.340 to their car

00:19:55.020 or while their kids

00:19:55.760 are walking

00:19:56.120 to their car.

00:19:57.120 I remember years ago

00:19:58.240 the PETA,

00:20:00.540 something for the

00:20:02.380 ethical treatment

00:20:02.860 of animals.

00:20:03.620 People for AFM, yeah.

00:20:04.920 They were quite activists.

00:20:06.920 I was all for

00:20:07.840 the idea

00:20:08.840 of limiting

00:20:09.600 myself,

00:20:11.300 I'm just giving you

00:20:11.800 a personal opinion,

00:20:12.560 of limiting

00:20:13.040 the experimentation

00:20:14.460 on animals

00:20:15.340 to a few centers

00:20:16.320 around the country

00:20:17.060 so you didn't have

00:20:17.700 every pharma

00:20:18.300 company doing it

00:20:20.080 and every cosmetics

00:20:21.300 company doing it

00:20:22.140 so my heart

00:20:23.620 was with PETA

00:20:24.340 in many ways.

00:20:25.380 However,

00:20:26.320 they went to

00:20:27.520 the home

00:20:29.180 on campus

00:20:30.520 of the 19-year-old

00:20:32.700 son of a client

00:20:33.880 of mine

00:20:34.240 who owned

00:20:34.600 a clothing company

00:20:35.560 and they lost me

00:20:37.000 because that's just

00:20:38.380 and they were

00:20:38.760 delivering notes there

00:20:39.880 and basically

00:20:40.480 making it impossible

00:20:41.560 for my client

00:20:43.340 who was the CEO

00:20:43.940 of a clothing company

00:20:44.820 to ignore.

00:20:46.960 Now, if they'd

00:20:47.540 shown up

00:20:47.900 at the clothing

00:20:51.420 company

00:20:51.880 or the manufacturing

00:20:52.660 plant

00:20:53.120 or the headquarters

00:20:53.680 offices,

00:20:54.340 okay,

00:20:54.860 that kind of

00:20:55.660 goes with the territory.

00:20:56.740 I've put on my hat

00:20:57.720 of being a CEO

00:20:58.460 for eight hours a day

00:20:59.400 and I can deal with it

00:21:00.160 but showing up

00:21:00.760 at the homes

00:21:01.880 and the occupancy

00:21:02.700 areas of kids

00:21:03.780 which is what's

00:21:04.940 happening now

00:21:05.660 in the case

00:21:06.320 of any public

00:21:07.840 official who has kids

00:21:09.000 I think it crosses

00:21:10.240 a line

00:21:10.820 and I think

00:21:11.460 the powers that be

00:21:13.540 i.e. government

00:21:14.420 should react

00:21:16.000 to it

00:21:16.480 more fully.

00:21:18.420 It's interesting

00:21:19.020 of course

00:21:19.540 that there have

00:21:20.000 been requests

00:21:20.580 for additional

00:21:21.220 protection

00:21:21.720 for Supreme Court

00:21:22.960 justices

00:21:23.540 and in the current

00:21:24.860 democratically controlled

00:21:26.400 Congress

00:21:27.260 those things

00:21:27.820 have not moved

00:21:28.380 forward

00:21:28.760 with the speed

00:21:29.620 or the agility

00:21:31.340 that I would have liked

00:21:32.280 and so

00:21:33.920 yeah,

00:21:34.520 it is a sad reality

00:21:35.840 of public life

00:21:36.640 in the world

00:21:37.920 today

00:21:38.440 that we know

00:21:39.140 a lot about

00:21:39.740 our public figures

00:21:40.600 whatever they're famous

00:21:41.480 for

00:21:41.880 through

00:21:43.320 through

00:21:44.100 sometimes

00:21:44.800 their own

00:21:45.300 actions

00:21:45.820 meaning

00:21:46.200 you know

00:21:46.680 Kim Kardashian

00:21:47.400 kind of actions

00:21:48.240 and then

00:21:49.240 and then

00:21:50.220 these public

00:21:50.740 officials

00:21:51.160 who

00:21:51.620 like them

00:21:52.540 or dislike

00:21:53.020 them

00:21:53.340 agree

00:21:53.640 or don't

00:21:54.080 agree

00:21:54.460 and by the way

00:21:56.120 this goes

00:21:56.540 to many other

00:21:57.100 public officials

00:21:57.740 who have not

00:21:58.300 been supportive

00:21:59.020 of the justices

00:21:59.920 it's the Supreme

00:22:01.220 Court

00:22:01.580 we have a system

00:22:03.100 that says

00:22:03.580 the Supreme

00:22:04.000 Court

00:22:04.220 will make

00:22:04.540 the decision

00:22:05.100 that specifically

00:22:05.900 means

00:22:06.480 the decisions

00:22:07.240 we don't

00:22:07.620 like

00:22:07.960 if it was

00:22:08.720 just the decisions

00:22:09.340 we like

00:22:09.740 we wouldn't

00:22:10.040 need a Supreme

00:22:10.540 Court

00:22:10.800 we would

00:22:11.080 just do

00:22:11.380 everything

00:22:11.720 by a majority

00:22:12.940 vote

00:22:13.320 or by

00:22:13.840 who's in

00:22:14.260 power

00:22:14.540 at the moment

00:22:15.180 the right

00:22:15.800 or the left

00:22:16.260 or what have you

00:22:16.900 but you have to

00:22:17.820 protect the courts

00:22:18.700 because the idea

00:22:19.780 of the courts

00:22:20.500 they might not

00:22:21.220 always be right

00:22:21.980 in a criminal

00:22:22.600 case as well

00:22:23.360 but the idea

00:22:24.320 of the courts

00:22:24.980 is at the center

00:22:25.820 of our

00:22:27.500 or certainly

00:22:28.520 what was

00:22:29.180 our

00:22:29.660 system of

00:22:30.940 justice

00:22:31.260 in America

00:22:31.820 the one

00:22:33.100 thing that

00:22:33.620 binds us

00:22:34.080 together

00:22:34.340 is the rule

00:22:34.960 of law

00:22:35.400 and once

00:22:35.840 we start

00:22:36.340 rejecting it

00:22:37.640 I mean

00:22:38.200 these calls

00:22:38.820 it's illegitimate

00:22:39.760 and Maxine

00:22:40.220 Waters

00:22:40.460 saying

00:22:40.700 we're not

00:22:40.960 going to

00:22:41.180 follow the

00:22:41.780 decision

00:22:42.220 in Dobbs

00:22:42.600 well yes

00:22:42.940 you are

00:22:43.560 it's the

00:22:45.020 social covenant

00:22:45.820 in addition

00:22:46.460 to being

00:22:47.080 you know

00:22:47.760 respect for

00:22:49.040 rule of law

00:22:49.580 but it's the

00:22:50.160 social covenant

00:22:50.760 that's sort of

00:22:51.620 how we've

00:22:52.600 agreed to

00:22:53.000 behave

00:22:53.420 and on that

00:22:54.540 same front

00:22:55.180 John Podorets

00:22:55.860 I think it was

00:22:56.520 said something

00:22:56.920 interesting about

00:22:57.620 protesting the

00:22:58.680 justices in their

00:22:59.320 homes

00:22:59.620 I'm sure you can

00:23:00.600 relate to this

00:23:01.160 as having

00:23:01.680 covered as

00:23:02.120 many

00:23:02.340 and helped

00:23:03.060 protect as

00:23:03.640 many people

00:23:04.040 as you have

00:23:04.480 we need

00:23:06.160 as a society

00:23:06.880 Justice Alito

00:23:07.600 to be able to

00:23:08.080 go home

00:23:08.840 to his house

00:23:09.780 and feel like

00:23:10.600 a man

00:23:11.040 feel like

00:23:11.940 a dad

00:23:12.360 feel like

00:23:13.040 a husband

00:23:13.740 same for

00:23:14.420 Kavanaugh

00:23:14.920 same for

00:23:15.500 Chief Justice

00:23:16.160 Roberts

00:23:16.460 all of them

00:23:16.900 there's

00:23:17.180 there's a

00:23:17.940 different role

00:23:18.660 that these

00:23:19.580 men and women

00:23:20.080 fulfill

00:23:20.600 when in

00:23:21.660 those clothes

00:23:22.380 surrounded by

00:23:23.560 those homes

00:23:24.620 and those

00:23:25.440 people

00:23:25.820 than they do

00:23:26.680 when they're in

00:23:27.120 their robes

00:23:27.560 at the U.S.

00:23:28.040 Supreme Court

00:23:28.540 and that's all

00:23:29.500 part of our

00:23:30.160 society's fabric

00:23:31.100 right like

00:23:31.740 we need Alito

00:23:32.660 at the

00:23:33.300 neighborhood picnic

00:23:34.180 flipping burgers

00:23:35.380 and Kavanaugh

00:23:37.240 out there

00:23:37.680 with his

00:23:38.020 daughter

00:23:38.280 helping her

00:23:39.100 practice

00:23:39.620 basketball

00:23:40.120 and Amy Coney

00:23:41.080 Barrett

00:23:41.360 with her

00:23:41.660 10-year-old

00:23:42.300 who happens

00:23:43.000 to have

00:23:43.220 Down syndrome

00:23:43.860 making sure

00:23:44.740 that her

00:23:45.500 child feels

00:23:46.200 safe inside

00:23:47.140 the home

00:23:47.560 and these

00:23:48.520 protesters

00:23:49.140 whether they

00:23:49.900 commit violence

00:23:50.520 or not

00:23:50.960 are disrupting

00:23:52.360 that whole

00:23:53.040 system

00:23:53.420 yeah I very

00:23:55.500 much agree

00:23:55.980 with you

00:23:56.300 and I think

00:23:56.640 particularly

00:23:57.140 for judges

00:23:58.040 not just

00:23:58.520 Supreme Court

00:23:58.960 justices

00:23:59.420 but for all

00:23:59.980 judges

00:24:00.340 we do want

00:24:01.540 them to

00:24:02.260 go back

00:24:02.780 to normal

00:24:03.200 life

00:24:03.580 we don't

00:24:04.020 want them

00:24:04.440 to have

00:24:05.100 you know

00:24:05.500 five men

00:24:06.100 to need

00:24:06.780 five men

00:24:07.800 protected

00:24:08.180 details

00:24:08.640 all the

00:24:08.980 time

00:24:09.200 because

00:24:09.480 that

00:24:10.040 does

00:24:11.000 the

00:24:11.180 very

00:24:11.440 thing

00:24:11.680 most

00:24:11.920 people

00:24:12.180 are

00:24:12.320 concerned

00:24:12.680 about

00:24:13.000 which is

00:24:13.440 that

00:24:13.680 you know

00:24:14.120 you're

00:24:14.320 living

00:24:14.520 in an

00:24:14.760 ivory

00:24:14.960 tower

00:24:15.400 like a

00:24:16.000 president

00:24:16.340 which is

00:24:17.300 certainly

00:24:17.560 the case

00:24:17.960 with a

00:24:18.180 president

00:24:18.460 a president

00:24:18.880 is much

00:24:19.300 divided

00:24:19.740 much like

00:24:20.260 a king

00:24:20.600 now

00:24:20.920 so divided

00:24:21.600 from the

00:24:22.040 population

00:24:22.620 and we

00:24:23.580 don't want

00:24:24.000 that for

00:24:24.380 judges

00:24:24.800 or justices

00:24:26.280 and I

00:24:26.820 agree

00:24:27.620 and I

00:24:28.440 think they

00:24:28.800 need that

00:24:29.480 relationship

00:24:30.160 to their

00:24:30.700 normal lives

00:24:31.640 in order

00:24:32.060 to say

00:24:33.480 you know

00:24:33.960 in the

00:24:34.240 night

00:24:34.440 as they're

00:24:34.760 falling asleep

00:24:35.380 wow that

00:24:35.820 really does

00:24:36.360 feel unfair

00:24:37.080 about that

00:24:37.840 case I'm

00:24:38.340 ruling on

00:24:38.780 this week

00:24:39.280 we want

00:24:40.360 them to be

00:24:40.760 that we

00:24:41.140 don't want

00:24:41.520 them to be

00:24:41.920 just another

00:24:42.660 set of

00:24:43.620 kings and

00:24:44.080 queens

00:24:44.460 like the

00:24:45.500 president

00:24:45.880 like the

00:24:46.420 speaker of

00:24:46.800 the house

00:24:47.220 like these

00:24:48.120 people who

00:24:48.740 are the

00:24:49.000 speaker of

00:24:49.320 the house

00:24:49.540 even more

00:24:49.960 so because

00:24:50.400 you have

00:24:50.740 the job

00:24:51.120 for you

00:24:51.760 know you're

00:24:52.040 in the

00:24:52.280 senate for

00:24:52.660 30 years

00:24:53.340 40 years

00:24:53.960 now for

00:24:54.600 god's sake

00:24:55.200 and so

00:24:56.400 which wasn't

00:24:57.540 wasn't in

00:24:58.000 the original

00:24:58.640 plan

00:24:59.100 uh and

00:25:00.040 and yet

00:25:00.480 uh we

00:25:01.140 have these

00:25:01.480 professional

00:25:02.000 you know

00:25:02.440 professional

00:25:02.960 politicians

00:25:03.760 now who

00:25:04.680 stay forever

00:25:05.300 hey megan i

00:25:06.280 want to go

00:25:06.620 back to

00:25:07.020 something because

00:25:07.780 it's relevant

00:25:08.400 something you

00:25:09.380 said about

00:25:10.040 being drawn

00:25:10.960 to your

00:25:11.540 work by

00:25:13.060 the interest

00:25:13.900 in holding

00:25:14.640 account holding

00:25:15.560 to account

00:25:16.240 uh public

00:25:17.240 officials and

00:25:18.020 powerful people

00:25:18.820 um i'm sure

00:25:20.340 you observe as

00:25:21.100 i do how

00:25:21.960 broken

00:25:22.520 the mainstream

00:25:24.560 media is at

00:25:25.640 the moment in

00:25:26.220 that regard

00:25:26.760 uh where

00:25:28.020 they should be

00:25:28.940 the people

00:25:29.460 asking uh

00:25:30.980 albert borla

00:25:31.880 or any

00:25:32.860 pfizer company

00:25:33.720 or any

00:25:34.380 pharma company

00:25:35.220 a thousand

00:25:35.740 questions you

00:25:36.660 know what

00:25:37.040 about this

00:25:37.560 how about

00:25:37.940 the trials

00:25:38.420 is this

00:25:39.000 long enough

00:25:39.440 they should

00:25:40.140 be the people

00:25:40.660 asking presidents

00:25:41.780 and other

00:25:42.780 politicians the

00:25:43.660 tough questions

00:25:44.400 and that has

00:25:45.700 to my view

00:25:46.740 literally

00:25:47.900 evaporated

00:25:49.040 in america

00:25:50.240 the the catch

00:25:51.320 out of

00:25:52.500 of uh

00:25:53.380 powerful people

00:25:54.200 that the media

00:25:54.980 was for most

00:25:55.960 of my life

00:25:56.540 and for much

00:25:57.000 of your career

00:25:57.660 i'm a little

00:25:58.400 bit older

00:25:58.800 um seems to

00:26:00.020 have uh

00:26:01.120 seems to

00:26:01.660 have you know

00:26:02.640 died on the

00:26:03.200 vine it's just

00:26:04.000 gone and i i

00:26:05.600 think it is

00:26:06.540 probably at the

00:26:08.440 center of the

00:26:09.240 uh say it

00:26:10.260 differently it is

00:26:10.880 probably the

00:26:11.760 single problem

00:26:12.820 that has most

00:26:14.660 allowed the

00:26:16.080 erosion of of

00:26:17.760 public trust

00:26:18.740 and the erosion

00:26:20.100 of confidence

00:26:21.120 in government

00:26:21.600 agencies because

00:26:22.400 nobody's holding

00:26:23.080 them to account

00:26:23.620 at all

00:26:24.120 i'll give you

00:26:24.460 a fast

00:26:24.820 example

00:26:25.340 niad at

00:26:26.760 the national

00:26:27.480 institute of

00:26:28.000 health which

00:26:28.480 is run by

00:26:29.180 uh fauci for

00:26:30.500 he's been there

00:26:31.520 for 50 something

00:26:32.240 years when

00:26:33.900 they're asked

00:26:34.400 for documents

00:26:35.020 these days

00:26:35.660 uh emails

00:26:37.060 and what have

00:26:37.560 you we get

00:26:38.780 redacted documents

00:26:40.560 this is not the

00:26:41.680 cia we're talking

00:26:42.620 about these are

00:26:43.360 the people who

00:26:44.260 develop and

00:26:45.080 ultimately approve

00:26:46.020 and push through

00:26:46.820 medical products

00:26:48.080 that people take

00:26:48.920 and the public

00:26:49.960 may not be

00:26:50.460 aware but 25

00:26:51.420 percent of the

00:26:52.100 products that are

00:26:52.700 approved by the

00:26:53.560 fda are later

00:26:55.240 recalled so

00:26:57.240 approval by the

00:26:58.180 fda does not

00:26:59.100 mean safe and

00:27:00.860 it does not mean

00:27:01.560 effective in all

00:27:02.340 circumstances and

00:27:03.600 i'm raising it here

00:27:05.280 with somebody who

00:27:06.140 has also raised it

00:27:06.980 by the way i know

00:27:07.640 from your work but

00:27:09.080 not that i'm

00:27:09.840 interviewing you but

00:27:10.760 do you see what i'm

00:27:11.480 talking about about

00:27:12.540 the the loss of of

00:27:14.280 that fourth estate

00:27:15.540 the media in

00:27:16.480 america a hundred

00:27:17.720 percent and it's

00:27:18.680 it's you raise the

00:27:20.440 issue of covid and

00:27:21.540 that's the most

00:27:22.280 illustrative right

00:27:23.300 now because it's

00:27:24.580 one thing when the

00:27:25.240 okay they don't they

00:27:26.060 don't want to hold

00:27:26.840 biden to account

00:27:27.600 because most of the

00:27:28.300 media's left so

00:27:30.380 they give him a pass

00:27:31.540 on a lot of the

00:27:32.040 things and they oh

00:27:32.820 they were very

00:27:33.320 active democracy

00:27:34.140 dies in darkness

00:27:34.940 when trump was in

00:27:36.520 the office right

00:27:37.080 like no okay we're

00:27:37.800 finally going to

00:27:38.240 fulfill our obligation

00:27:39.560 to hold the powerful

00:27:40.560 to account but in

00:27:41.700 such an unfair

00:27:42.680 one-sided way with

00:27:44.580 him but the covid

00:27:45.960 example is the best

00:27:47.540 because that's

00:27:48.380 something where it

00:27:49.620 okay public health

00:27:50.740 and private companies

00:27:52.200 big pharma that

00:27:53.380 you're no one's

00:27:54.200 supposed to be on

00:27:54.660 their side right

00:27:55.480 although they are

00:27:56.980 the media is

00:27:57.500 corrupted rfk pointed

00:27:58.800 this out in his

00:27:59.400 book um that they

00:28:00.780 all take ad dollars

00:28:01.760 from pfizer and big

00:28:03.040 pharma and they they

00:28:05.380 were like sycophants

00:28:06.860 when it came to any

00:28:08.080 messaging we got from

00:28:09.340 pfizer or moderna or

00:28:11.380 fauci or rochelle

00:28:12.980 walensky it just had

00:28:14.600 to be accepted as

00:28:16.100 true otherwise you

00:28:18.160 would be censored you

00:28:19.360 know you wouldn't even

00:28:20.000 make air on a place

00:28:20.840 like cnn online it

00:28:22.280 would be censored and

00:28:23.740 it's gotten so bad

00:28:24.760 that you have somebody

00:28:25.660 like an rfk junior who

00:28:27.240 came on our show

00:28:27.980 labeled as a nut i

00:28:29.840 mean he's literally

00:28:30.620 number two on the

00:28:31.440 so-called disinformation

00:28:32.400 dozen that the white

00:28:33.360 house put out the

00:28:34.000 white house that's

00:28:34.700 government trying to

00:28:36.020 silence his speech by

00:28:37.660 pressuring social media

00:28:38.640 not to give this guy a

00:28:39.680 forum and and we took a

00:28:41.380 deep dive into his

00:28:42.720 claims in that book

00:28:43.440 and otherwise and

00:28:43.940 found he's right rfk is

00:28:46.700 junior the the stuff

00:28:48.160 he's writing about is

00:28:49.260 well supported not to

00:28:51.020 endorse every single

00:28:51.740 line he printed but he

00:28:53.880 is not a disinformation

00:28:54.940 no purveyor and so the

00:28:58.100 media rather than just

00:28:59.300 saying hey well let me

00:29:00.720 figure it out for

00:29:01.180 myself let me do my

00:29:02.200 audience service of like

00:29:03.320 taking a look at that

00:29:04.840 just marches like

00:29:06.160 lemmings to the beat of

00:29:07.360 whatever i i don't even

00:29:08.480 know who calls the shots

00:29:09.440 i think it's their

00:29:10.000 left-wing instincts of

00:29:11.500 getting patted on the

00:29:12.560 head being good boys

00:29:13.700 and girls wearing their

00:29:14.860 n95s getting their

00:29:16.380 5000 booster shots and

00:29:19.120 saying you know they're

00:29:20.440 they're compliant

00:29:21.100 yeah well i'm i'm with

00:29:24.300 you on that it is the

00:29:25.180 best example we have and

00:29:26.440 it's the most alarming

00:29:27.340 example all all things

00:29:28.960 related to covid and

00:29:30.220 related to mass

00:29:30.820 vaccination and now

00:29:32.140 pax livid which the

00:29:33.640 president has talked

00:29:35.000 about which uh you know

00:29:36.540 has commercials that uh

00:29:38.360 talk about it being

00:29:39.480 used and unfortunately

00:29:40.700 pax livid according to

00:29:41.920 fauci himself yesterday

00:29:43.080 in a video i have but

00:29:44.800 has been mostly removed

00:29:45.660 from the internet uh

00:29:46.980 describes his

00:29:47.700 circumstance which is

00:29:48.860 that he got covid he

00:29:50.140 took pax livid he

00:29:51.460 tested negative negative

00:29:52.480 negative then positive

00:29:54.080 then got covid again

00:29:55.520 immediately worse than

00:29:56.860 before his words much

00:29:58.180 worse what does he do

00:29:59.600 another round of pax

00:30:01.180 livid i'll just take

00:30:02.200 another round and my

00:30:03.700 point here is isn't to

00:30:05.160 make fun of though i'm

00:30:06.360 happy to make fun of

00:30:07.760 fauci or uh or or the

00:30:09.560 failed product pax livid

00:30:10.720 but rather where is the

00:30:12.460 media asking questions

00:30:14.200 of both the government

00:30:15.740 and pharma companies

00:30:16.840 about these things and

00:30:17.940 and i i want to actually

00:30:19.460 answer the question

00:30:20.520 rather than just posing

00:30:21.680 it there is something

00:30:22.820 called the trusted news

00:30:23.980 initiative not sure if

00:30:25.140 you've heard of it many

00:30:25.920 of your viewers won't

00:30:26.760 have but it is run by

00:30:28.280 bbc and if you go to

00:30:29.320 the bbc website right

00:30:30.700 now uh or after our

00:30:32.440 podcast today and uh and

00:30:34.160 and enter trusted news

00:30:35.960 initiative or even do a

00:30:36.960 google search trusted

00:30:37.880 news initiative bbc it'll

00:30:40.020 take you to the bbc

00:30:40.980 website and the bbc has

00:30:42.600 organized a group of

00:30:44.620 previously competitive

00:30:46.220 companies uh cnn facebook

00:30:49.060 google abc cbs australian

00:30:52.520 broadcasting canadian

00:30:53.500 broadcasting who all are

00:30:55.760 acting in lockstep on

00:30:57.240 matters regarding uh

00:30:58.740 pharmaceuticals mass

00:30:59.900 vaccination and covid and

00:31:01.940 they they lay it out

00:31:03.160 they're not hiding it

00:31:04.140 and i'm not describing

00:31:05.060 anything that isn't on

00:31:05.800 their website they make

00:31:06.780 it clear that their

00:31:07.980 intent and their purpose

00:31:09.100 is to um prevent uh and

00:31:12.320 counter uh what they

00:31:14.020 call vaccine misinformation

00:31:15.540 uh and and to draw their

00:31:19.000 information from the cdc and

00:31:21.640 uh and the world health

00:31:22.900 organization well uh that's

00:31:25.640 a problem having a bunch of

00:31:27.140 companies that used to be

00:31:28.120 competitive all doing the

00:31:29.900 exact same stories at the

00:31:31.220 same time and i'll give

00:31:31.980 you two examples you

00:31:32.900 mentioned robert kennedy

00:31:33.840 when he was banned for

00:31:35.780 life from uh instagram

00:31:37.540 that story ran that's

00:31:40.520 february uh february 11 or

00:31:43.120 12 in 2021 that story ran

00:31:45.920 hundreds and hundreds of

00:31:47.880 times with the exact same

00:31:49.900 headline banned for life for

00:31:51.280 misinformation banned for

00:31:52.820 life for false uh claims uh

00:31:55.200 it was a it was a remarkable

00:31:56.900 story i would say it's one of

00:31:58.220 the biggest robert f kennedy's

00:32:00.040 news stories that's ever

00:32:01.120 been is the one of him being

00:32:02.980 banned for life from uh from

00:32:04.680 instagram which is owned by

00:32:05.940 facebook which is a member

00:32:07.840 of the trusted news

00:32:08.920 initiative which is run in

00:32:11.440 part by a fellow who used to

00:32:13.980 work for reuters uh young uh

00:32:16.460 name last name is clark he

00:32:18.460 left his job as the head of

00:32:20.540 reuters to become oh

00:32:22.640 interesting a uh a board

00:32:25.040 member of pfizer go to the

00:32:26.480 pfizer website ask for the

00:32:27.780 board you'll see him there

00:32:28.740 and so this and he was 52

00:32:31.680 years old by the way not

00:32:32.800 really the time you usually

00:32:33.820 retire from being the head of

00:32:35.260 reuters and reuters is in the

00:32:37.180 trusted news initiative group

00:32:38.700 my point here being and going

00:32:40.860 to bobby kennedy is a fine

00:32:42.140 example you have oh i didn't

00:32:44.500 give you the other example uh

00:32:46.200 uh the joe rogan and horse

00:32:50.000 paste joe rogan takes horse

00:32:52.220 medicine that was hundreds of

00:32:55.100 newspapers bam in the same

00:32:56.800 afternoon with all the same

00:32:58.580 narrative that is the trusted

00:32:59.920 news initiative and that is

00:33:01.680 something that is uh unheard of

00:33:03.940 in our lives because it used to

00:33:05.420 be that the washington post

00:33:06.520 which is in the trusted news

00:33:07.800 initiative would be competing

00:33:09.380 with the new york times and

00:33:11.080 bbc and the guardian and

00:33:12.300 everybody else who could get

00:33:13.580 this great story where we caught

00:33:15.160 out this public official doing

00:33:17.100 this wrongful act not now not if

00:33:20.180 it has to embarrass our

00:33:20.880 competitors embarrass our

00:33:22.420 competitors for saying the wrong

00:33:24.000 thing it used to sure and also to

00:33:26.780 you know who would get the

00:33:28.000 scoop uh well there's no scoop

00:33:30.740 today there's no scoop on on the

00:33:33.100 pharma companies there's no scoop

00:33:34.980 on uh on the administration there's

00:33:37.100 no scoop on the world health

00:33:38.520 organization or fauci or i mean look

00:33:41.560 at this here's a here's an

00:33:42.480 interesting note and i won't go too

00:33:44.540 far down this rabbit hole but you

00:33:45.980 have uh naiad fauci's

00:33:49.380 organization yeah has received

00:33:51.540 350 million dollars directly paid

00:33:55.700 to scientists and employees at naiad

00:33:58.160 including fauci and including

00:33:59.500 collins who was the head of nih

00:34:01.000 now five years ago or 2015 that was

00:34:05.080 a big news story actually reuters

00:34:06.640 covered it because at that time it

00:34:08.380 was a it was a much smaller number

00:34:09.640 but the fact that most americans

00:34:11.500 don't know that government employees

00:34:13.580 whose salaries we pay can have patent

00:34:16.640 participation in products they develop

00:34:19.160 on our dime and they get paid

00:34:22.040 directly by the for those patents by

00:34:25.220 the pharma companies additionally most

00:34:28.420 americans don't know that 45 percent

00:34:31.140 of the budget you have to go to the

00:34:32.660 fda website it's there of the fda is

00:34:35.860 from pharma is provided directly by

00:34:38.360 pharma in the form of fees so this

00:34:41.160 thing is broken right and normally as

00:34:45.020 in 2015 there'd be news stories about

00:34:47.780 it i haven't seen a news story about

00:34:49.580 uh uh 350 million dollars being paid

00:34:52.360 directly to the contrary that's one of

00:34:54.440 the things in bobby kennedy's book

00:34:56.180 disinformation right quote unquote to

00:34:58.700 say that's in his book um that can't

00:35:01.640 even get a review no one none of the

00:35:04.460 mainstream papers magazines etc would

00:35:07.020 even touch it they treat him like he's

00:35:10.620 like he's a virus uh and he's trying

00:35:13.400 the guys devoted his life to

00:35:14.880 environmental law like to trying to

00:35:16.280 clean up our rivers and our air and so

00:35:18.200 on for our kids that's that's it is

00:35:19.960 that some sort of a sin he's a

00:35:21.240 kennedy supposed to be beloved by the

00:35:22.700 left and the people who control these

00:35:23.820 organizations um but he he misstepped

00:35:26.400 in their view on childhood vaccines by

00:35:29.240 the way fascinating discussion with him

00:35:30.980 on that too and he's got a lot of

00:35:32.740 science to back up what he said you

00:35:34.060 know it's like he's not making this

00:35:35.440 stuff up uh you can disagree with them

00:35:37.540 but to just dismiss it all as

00:35:39.140 disinformation is dishonest um and he

00:35:42.100 raised all those claims and suddenly

00:35:44.560 there's a total blackout on his book

00:35:47.040 on him there are so few people

00:35:49.580 interested in holding these government

00:35:50.840 agencies to account instead they just

00:35:52.320 want us to shut up and take the 15th

00:35:54.980 booster right so it's like yes the only

00:35:58.060 thing that shut it down is the is the

00:35:59.680 coming midterms i mean truly politics

00:36:01.320 is the only thing that made these

00:36:03.160 people stop forcing this stuff on us

00:36:05.000 yes it's true all true and i saw that

00:36:08.040 interview of yours by the way and it

00:36:09.520 was great on a few levels notably that

00:36:12.460 um you checked on the things he said

00:36:14.640 if something was inaccurate or wrong

00:36:16.300 you said so if something was accurate

00:36:18.040 you said so his book by the way which i

00:36:20.820 gave a blurb for and i've read now

00:36:22.760 twice uh is called the real anthony

00:36:25.040 fauci and that book um was the number

00:36:28.060 one bestseller in america for 12 weeks

00:36:30.440 it was the number two bestseller in

00:36:32.000 america for 16 weeks and not a single

00:36:35.220 review as you said and not a single

00:36:36.860 reference in any potent media other

00:36:39.120 than yours and uh and even when the

00:36:41.620 new york times did a you know a hatchet

00:36:45.160 job on uh on bobby they wouldn't even

00:36:47.720 name the book they also wouldn't accept

00:36:50.700 ads for the book they accepted one and

00:36:53.400 then they wouldn't accept any more and

00:36:55.420 uh so yeah the book they took they had a

00:36:57.980 choice of how to approach it either they

00:36:59.540 could question it on the merits of its

00:37:02.760 facts it's really a history book it's not

00:37:04.880 an opinion book it's a history book on

00:37:07.120 the history of vaccines and how they've

00:37:08.980 developed and vaccines of course are

00:37:10.600 different some vaccines they're not a

00:37:12.840 uniform product some vaccines are worth

00:37:16.180 it and uh worth any risks there's always

00:37:18.880 risk with anything you inject into

00:37:20.200 yourself some are worth it some are not

00:37:22.080 worth it many have been recalled we have

00:37:24.620 to remember uh you know the the um

00:37:27.240 smallpox vaccine that was given to

00:37:29.560 soldiers people in the military 40 million

00:37:32.820 doses and then they stopped because of

00:37:35.560 adverse effects including myocarditis

00:37:38.140 etc and uh we've had a bunch of vaccines

00:37:40.820 stopped and so vaccines are not all equal

00:37:43.880 and and uh these vaccines now we're not

00:37:47.240 getting a true account of them in the

00:37:49.220 media because nobody's asking tough

00:37:51.020 questions and that's a problem he's

00:37:53.500 playing the adversarial role that the

00:37:56.340 media used to play right he's like we

00:37:58.760 need people like rfk jr because he's not

00:38:01.520 afraid of them now it's hard for him to

00:38:03.060 get platformed and and just getting that

00:38:05.360 interview on the air was a whole thing

00:38:07.080 for us i mean believe me it wasn't easy

00:38:08.820 but we managed to get it on all platforms

00:38:10.700 it didn't get pulled from anybody because

00:38:12.800 we were careful um but you know the truth

00:38:15.300 is we shouldn't have to be we should be

00:38:16.660 able to just interview the guy and the

00:38:17.840 way we want to interview him but you know

00:38:19.660 we're subject to the same things

00:38:21.000 everybody else is because we're not

00:38:22.140 subscription-based we're ad-based and we

00:38:23.760 need these platforms to get out there

00:38:25.000 blah blah blah whatever it's a whole

00:38:26.040 different thing but the media used to

00:38:28.180 love being that adversarial role you know

00:38:29.920 you want to tell us it's totally safe you

00:38:31.620 want to tell us like we need to vaccinate

00:38:33.660 zero to five-year-olds okay based on

00:38:36.220 experimentation or based on the cases of

00:38:38.720 10 children some of the more honest

00:38:40.940 physicians are pointing this out uh

00:38:42.540 online you know veney for all these

00:38:43.840 people we had on the show um the media

00:38:46.080 used to go nuts over that you you can't

00:38:48.300 make a recommendation for all americans

00:38:50.660 zero to five-year-olds based on looking

00:38:52.060 at 10 children this is insane but anyway

00:38:55.440 i'm on bar i'm on board with everything

00:38:56.880 you're saying i want to pause because i

00:38:58.180 gotta squeeze in a break and there's so

00:38:59.780 much more for us to go over really

00:39:01.080 enjoying my very first live conversation

00:39:03.920 with the one and only gavin de becker

00:39:05.540 by the way uh if you want to watch that

00:39:07.320 rfk jr interview it was a two-part

00:39:09.440 interview it's episodes 282 283 i guarantee

00:39:14.100 you you will find them fascinating

00:39:16.000 next to my discussion with author and

00:39:23.660 security expert gavin de becker we're

00:39:25.880 going to get into the topic of mass shootings

00:39:27.360 it's been just over a month since the

00:39:29.760 shooting at rob elementary school in

00:39:31.140 uvalde texas and what we've learned since

00:39:33.640 then about the police response is it's

00:39:35.980 truly shocking i know we overuse that

00:39:38.020 term in media but it is shocking it turns

00:39:41.800 out the police were inside the building

00:39:43.620 three minutes after the shooter entered my

00:39:48.080 god it makes your heart hurt just

00:39:49.700 learning that they spent an hour trying

00:39:53.080 to track down keys to the classroom where

00:39:55.040 the suspect was holed up

00:39:56.120 never tried opening the door they never

00:39:59.900 tried just putting their hand on the

00:40:01.140 doorknob

00:40:01.540 and turning it and it turns out the door

00:40:04.480 was not even locked security camera

00:40:08.620 images released

00:40:09.500 so telling they're jarring they show police

00:40:13.600 officers standing in the hallway with

00:40:14.940 rifles and ballistic shields just feet away

00:40:17.920 from the classroom doing nothing the

00:40:20.580 children inside had no protection had

00:40:24.360 none and yet they still didn't barge in

00:40:27.160 these guys with the shields and the guns

00:40:29.440 the issue of mass shootings is something

00:40:32.300 gavin's team specializes in in terms of

00:40:35.180 planning for and trying to prevent and he

00:40:38.160 understands very well the profile of a

00:40:40.680 school shooter potential school shooter

00:40:43.200 you know gavin separate and apart from the

00:40:45.720 police response which i i'm sure you've got

00:40:47.460 thoughts on because i know you're all about

00:40:48.600 fortifying classrooms uh the um the school

00:40:53.120 shooters here now we're learning so much

00:40:54.640 more about the the number of comments they

00:40:57.280 made about wanting to be a shooter a mass

00:40:59.600 shooter the warning signs on social media

00:41:01.460 for both this guy and the guy in buffalo i

00:41:03.600 mean it was just i know you've said before

00:41:05.720 people don't just snap they don't they don't

00:41:08.120 just snap and sure enough in this case and

00:41:10.580 the one in buffalo that's that's proving to

00:41:12.620 be true yes i i it's an important part of

00:41:16.620 of my public work like in gift of fear i

00:41:20.560 talk about the fact that uh people don't

00:41:23.220 just snap uh and while that's a you know he

00:41:26.120 he snapped and he went crazy in the

00:41:27.920 workplace or he he was perfectly fine and

00:41:30.400 then he was you know insane and shooting

00:41:32.760 people it's really a process that is as

00:41:35.800 observable as water coming to a boil and

00:41:38.540 in that process is uh you know are a bunch

00:41:41.780 of witnesses who experience fascination

00:41:44.340 with weapons who experience statements uh

00:41:47.000 and allusions to acting out violently who

00:41:49.760 experience the the real major pre-incident

00:41:53.540 indicators pre-incident indicator is an

00:41:55.880 expression we call it pin for pre-incident

00:41:58.480 indicator it's things that happen before

00:42:00.100 the thing happens that you want to

00:42:01.680 prevent so a pre-incident indicator for

00:42:03.760 getting a bee sting is is hearing the

00:42:06.560 buzz and a pre-incident indicator for uh you

00:42:09.460 know somebody uh shooting at a governor is

00:42:13.560 uh jumping up on stage with a gun but that

00:42:16.320 pre-incident indicator is too recent to be

00:42:18.860 useful and the birth of the assassin is also

00:42:21.840 a pre-incident indicator but that's too dated to

00:42:24.260 be useful so we're looking for the things that

00:42:26.360 happen in this sweet spot in the months prior to

00:42:29.600 someone acting out violently and human beings are

00:42:32.520 predictable we predict human behavior all day we

00:42:35.700 predict the behavior of our our kids and advertisers

00:42:39.220 predict the behavior of consumers and uh you know

00:42:42.380 lawyers predict the behavior of of jurors and

00:42:45.320 anybody who tells you that human behavior is not

00:42:47.320 predictable is not correct and it is uh it's not

00:42:51.740 that predictions are always perfect that's not the

00:42:53.820 idea but that people who are displaying pre-incident

00:42:57.360 indicators uh can be detected if we are open to seeing

00:43:01.460 them and of course open to reporting them and the

00:43:04.360 number one pre-incident indicator for mass violence

00:43:08.160 for multiple victim shootings for example uh is

00:43:11.140 misery uh misery alienation uh these are things

00:43:15.400 you see in the kids who act out violently again and

00:43:17.940 again and it's why rather than even talk about the the

00:43:22.420 tragedy of the police response and the fact that you

00:43:25.440 know kids were being shot while there were protectors uh

00:43:29.060 who in present who could have made a difference putting

00:43:31.620 that aside for a moment i think the bigger issue to look at

00:43:35.400 and we slip every time there's a mass shooting and focus on

00:43:38.460 that mass shooting when the bigger issue is the

00:43:41.360 extraordinary number of multiple victim shootings going on

00:43:45.000 in america this year 2021 started about halfway mark and

00:43:50.000 then through 2022 uh when you know when i was first

00:43:53.800 studying these there were a few and you too megan there

00:43:56.520 were a few a year a few columbines a year in a in an active year

00:44:03.020 there are now five multiple victim shootings in america

00:44:06.740 every week and there are shootings of lesser uh numbers that

00:44:11.840 are happening every day and so we have to really ask ourselves

00:44:15.880 some questions about the uh the misery index in the united

00:44:20.180 states uh you know the we can look at inflation

00:44:24.380 we can look at alienation we can look at lack of trust in our institutions

00:44:28.220 uh we can look at division uh which is being uh you know nurtured

00:44:33.560 by politicians uh division between people i want to tell you quickly

00:44:37.580 social media too say it again social media too

00:44:41.400 oh yes social media you know at the end of that

00:44:44.380 very good documentary that ran on netflix called the social dilemma

00:44:48.960 at the very end one of the uh former facebook executives is asked does he let

00:44:54.180 his own kids use facebook he says no

00:44:56.000 and and he's asked what do you think is the natural result

00:44:59.500 of this thing that you're telling us about about how

00:45:02.440 social media and youtube and other things lean us

00:45:05.560 incline us toward the most aggressive uh postures in everything uh he just

00:45:10.900 answers immediately civil war he doesn't hesitate for a moment

00:45:15.040 that that's the natural outcome of what we're experiencing but i want to

00:45:18.840 just comment on uh on all of these things that are leading to alienation

00:45:23.420 why do people in power benefit when there is extraordinary uh

00:45:29.800 hostility between what is identified as two sides you know the media puts forth

00:45:35.160 the good and the bad the abortion and the anti-abortion the pro this and the

00:45:39.400 anti that the vaccine and the and the anti-vaxxers and all of these things

00:45:44.340 that are that we are um you know in in dispute over

00:45:48.420 why do they win and the answer is like many answers you'll get from me is

00:45:52.880 historic it has always been this way the king and the queen

00:45:55.640 look over the castle wall there's always a wall and there's a reason for the

00:45:59.960 wall they don't want people coming over and they look over the castle wall

00:46:03.400 and they see the people in conflict with each other

00:46:06.320 and that is always good news because it means they are not coming over the

00:46:11.680 castle wall and that's where we are today which is

00:46:15.620 this degree of alienation uh this degree of uh of

00:46:20.360 hostility and uh this degree of division and

00:46:25.600 divisiveness in america actually serves power structures it

00:46:30.560 actually serves people in power because you uh what you don't all you

00:46:35.520 don't want in a population is that they all agree

00:46:38.160 when they all agree you get tunisia or you get egypt but you get the arab

00:46:41.640 spring when it frankly doesn't even take all

00:46:43.900 when 55 percent agree and are are willing to be active

00:46:47.500 you get uh you know you get substantial change

00:46:50.500 real fast uh as you said you know our politicians now

00:46:54.800 real quick dropped fauci he's not doing an interview five times a day anymore

00:46:59.480 uh dropped uh you know the the nearly obsessive focus on getting not

00:47:04.840 vaccinated but vaccinated again and again and again and again

00:47:08.400 all that stopped because we have elections coming up

00:47:11.380 it reminds me of um the the miracle on ice team 1980 and how her brooks

00:47:17.320 made these these two factions who couldn't get along because they were

00:47:20.340 from the midwest and they were from the northeast and they had been college

00:47:23.260 rivals um he made himself the common enemy it's

00:47:26.240 exactly the opposite he said oh you know if if i can get them to hate me

00:47:29.540 they'll get along with each other and our politicians and our elites are doing

00:47:33.040 exactly the opposite strategy on all of us all right stand by gavin i got to

00:47:37.860 squeeze in another quick break and so much more to get to uh with gavin

00:47:41.480 de becker this is fascinating isn't it right after this break this is the world

00:47:45.180 expert on security and protection

00:47:47.680 so i understand that i've heard you say that um that suffering is sort of the

00:47:56.360 universal warning sign on these shooters but how can you determine right

00:48:00.880 because some of them some of them for sure especially in the school setting

00:48:04.780 are kids who suffered who were bullied who are ostracized

00:48:07.540 and the most recent shooter there's evidence of him saying that and the buffalo

00:48:11.220 shooter his musings online reflect that um

00:48:14.840 he never socialized he felt uncomfortable around people he spent all his time

00:48:19.180 online and he even he acknowledged that was a mistake

00:48:21.640 so there's those guys but then there's true sociopaths

00:48:24.880 sociopaths you know then there are people who i don't i think they're born

00:48:29.120 somehow sociopathic and i've interviewed some of these moms

00:48:33.340 of these these kids who say i i have the next school shooter my child is the next

00:48:38.600 school shooter and that person can't be

00:48:41.280 you know i don't know showing kindness to that person or inter i don't how do we

00:48:46.280 prevent that person from unleashing this kind of terror on us

00:48:50.280 well everybody every kind of person who acts out violently

00:48:55.220 has some degree of pre-incident indicators that are revealed to people in the

00:48:59.940 story you're telling there uh the the young person's mother uh has

00:49:05.140 made this prediction already and you know very many cases that i worked on

00:49:09.200 people would say afterwards in fact there's one case of a workplace violence

00:49:13.340 shooting where uh people were in the lunchroom

00:49:16.980 and when they heard what they thought was firecrackers outside

00:49:20.440 or a car backfiring one of them said ah that's probably just moss backer

00:49:25.200 uh coming to finish us off talking about a co-worker named moss backer and it was

00:49:29.820 indeed moss backer coming back in my point

00:49:32.280 being that time and again and there are a lot of them in my

00:49:35.220 in gift of fear where you see people say the exact thing

00:49:39.300 you know i don't want to open that package i'm going back to my office i don't want to be

00:49:43.000 here when it blows up as a joke and dark humor is often a uh you know a cover for

00:49:48.560 communicating actual concern and so i'm not aware of cases that occur

00:49:53.520 including in sociopathic people without pre-incident indicators now i'm not saying

00:49:58.200 they're always detectable uh because there are people uh particularly you know

00:50:02.500 what do we hear a loner neighbors talk about the fact that he just

00:50:06.180 stayed in his house all the time or he seemed like a nice guy or

00:50:09.140 that kind of thing and so it's not always possible because some people

00:50:13.060 don't interact a lot with others that was true for

00:50:15.880 the unabomber for example uh who uh you know who killed a few people and

00:50:20.860 injured many more with bombs that he sent i'm giving you the background because i

00:50:24.620 know you might remember it but younger audience members might not so i don't

00:50:28.420 think there are cases where there are no pre-incident indicators

00:50:32.180 however i want to make a bigger point that isn't in my work because

00:50:36.560 we're in a different time and that is when we're getting

00:50:40.360 many multiple victim shootings every week when we're in a circumstance like we're

00:50:46.620 in today where violence in general is being normalized uh you know portland

00:50:54.020 basically uh you know in a state of siege at times but that was normal that

00:50:58.020 was you know called by some politicians uh like the summer of love uh when we

00:51:02.640 have cities with the degree of homelessness with the degree of public

00:51:07.660 drug use with the degree of violence like in san francisco and los angeles where

00:51:12.520 you have these flash uh you know uh robberies like flash

00:51:17.180 mob where 60 or 70 people will go into a department store

00:51:21.860 um and just take stuff or people going in and you know taking stuff off the shelves

00:51:27.140 into into trash bags because they know that there won't be prosecution of any

00:51:33.280 crimes other than above 1500 for example los angeles has got its version of this

00:51:39.260 san francisco has had its version of it well the point i'm trying to raise here is

00:51:44.220 that we are in um enormous trouble right now just enormous trouble in terms of the

00:51:50.420 degree of alienation and uh and and division uh going on in the country and i

00:51:57.200 want to just say a fast note on alienation you might have heard of dr robert malone

00:52:01.320 who's a man i've spent a lot of time with he was on uh on uh uh joe rogan's show and

00:52:07.780 got something like 50 million downloads and then there was an effort to have joe rogan

00:52:12.580 canceled uh because that's what led to the yeah that's what led to joe rogan's the

00:52:16.960 first big attempt to cancel him exactly and so malone is the original inventor of

00:52:22.660 the mrna technology or platform that is now used in vaccines and he happens to

00:52:27.520 strongly oppose these vaccines he's a vaccinologist so he doesn't oppose all

00:52:31.480 vaccines but he happens to oppose this particular mass vaccination program this

00:52:35.820 particular one which is you know will be billions of people by the time it's done

00:52:40.220 anyway um malone talked about on that show mass formation which was the idea that

00:52:46.080 you had whole populations just accepting information no matter what from the

00:52:50.240 government just accepting without any questions without any uh without any

00:52:54.580 hesitation and that links to this alienation issue because if you are alone

00:53:01.360 your only relationship is via social media for example or the internet and you are

00:53:07.880 lonely and feel alienated you can instantly join a group that is adversarial with

00:53:15.000 someone it's emotionally charged you can instantly join a group pro-trump anti-trump

00:53:20.780 he's the worst thing that ever existed he's he's great uh pro-hilary anti-hilary uh she's

00:53:26.620 just victimized pro-vaccine anti-vaccine pro-abortion anti-abortion these things solve

00:53:33.420 your alienation problem immediately because they put you in a community and they put you in

00:53:39.700 a community that is glad to have you and accepts you and it's emotional these are emotionally

00:53:45.520 charged issues we're not having these uh these um groups around topics like parking tickets we're

00:53:53.260 having these groups around topics that are central and represent belief systems and the interesting

00:53:59.620 thing is if you are for example in favor of pharma uh you know the most criminally fined entity in

00:54:09.060 american culture pharma companies recalled things uh you know produce the the uh problems with pain

00:54:18.080 medications and vioxx which killed 150 000 to three all these things and yet now they're kind of heroic

00:54:25.540 in the culture if you're for them if you just believe why would they say you know why would pfizer

00:54:30.940 say something that's not true about their product other than the fact that they've done it a bunch of

00:54:35.400 times so i would just want to download two quick things for people who might be still trusting

00:54:41.380 pharma companies as an example um the fda went to court to uh restrict release of the safety trials

00:54:49.660 that pfizer did on on these new vaccines they asked for 55 years to release the information most people i

00:54:57.640 say that to don't believe me i say you got to google it then they went to court again with pfizer the fda

00:55:03.480 and asked for 75 years before releasing the information that's not stuff you do when you

00:55:10.540 feel proud about the safety trials and now they have been ordered to release the information and

00:55:14.740 the first tranche guess what it's got 1200 post-marketing deaths that are vaccine associated

00:55:20.740 well these again no media where is the new york times to talk about this stuff and where is cnn

00:55:28.680 and so here i'm bringing this all to my punchline back to shootings we now have instead of an

00:55:35.180 individual who has no good relationship with his family who's alienated who's bullied in school

00:55:41.340 we have a population that feels that way i don't mean the whole population but probably half of it

00:55:47.880 feels like hey we're not getting the truth from our own government they are withholding information

00:55:53.520 from us again and again and again and we're not getting well served by our politicians let's say

00:55:59.320 the 535 in congress by the way is it 535 i've failed that history class anyway whatever that number is

00:56:07.240 i didn't want to get it wrong but and where are we getting well served by these pariahs these

00:56:13.640 canceled people like robert kennedy jr who of course in reality you know is a a gifted trial lawyer

00:56:21.000 took on monsanto successfully and has a book that's got thousands of citations and by the way

00:56:27.440 i mentioned i've read it twice the citations in in that book the real anthony fauci i'm an author

00:56:33.160 talking about somebody else's book by the way as a humorous note but anyway the citations they're giving

00:56:37.680 of you the citations are to the new york times to cnn to abc to newsweek to time they're not citations to

00:56:46.820 some you know you you your your people looked at the claims that are made there and and they're not

00:56:51.480 even claims they're history they're the history of what's going on you know has bill gates and the

00:56:57.900 gates uh foundation ever had a vaccine program in india where they told people that these were

00:57:04.620 wellness shots but they were actually vaccines that could affect uh uh reproduction yes not no yes

00:57:12.340 true and so and that was can i just say that was some of the most explosive stuff it was like

00:57:17.380 whoa wait what let's make sure and you you run through and you can see the evolution where they

00:57:24.180 discovered it they were accused to build you know the bill gates foundation continues to deny everything

00:57:29.300 but you've got independent third parties saying it happened we checked what was in your shot uh and so

00:57:36.140 it's it's sort of something where you start off thinking oh yeah he must be a nutcase this can't be

00:57:41.040 it's bill gates like this all must be untrue and then you keep digging you keep digging and you

00:57:46.140 realize there is a nutcase involved here but it's not rfk jr no it's true and by the way also in

00:57:52.660 nigeria and all over africa the the testing of vaccines like gardasil uh on on brown people is sort

00:58:00.100 of the way it works and uh uh you know i have uh 10 raised 10 kids all together i have two young boys

00:58:06.940 and two daughters and the idea that that boys are being induced to take gardasil at nine years old

00:58:15.600 because one day they might grow up and and and you know the whole gardasil thing is such a scam

00:58:22.600 can i just say this so that's the hpv vaccine and um yes we we love our pediatrician but

00:58:29.960 our eldest is 12 he's a boy and then we have an 11 year old girl and we have an eight year old boy

00:58:36.100 and so on his last wellness visit just a month ago our doctor wanted us to give our 12 year old boy

00:58:43.260 gardasil he wanted us you know it's not sexually active he's a young boy um but he's like you know

00:58:49.120 so i gotta gotta give him double dose before he gets to that point and i'm like hell no we are not doing

00:58:56.180 that and then i got home to talk about it with my husband doug we're like absolutely not but this is

00:59:00.820 somebody we trust you know it's like yes i can see how people easily get sucked into this because

00:59:05.580 you don't do any research and you don't read books like fauci and you know enough fauci's rfk juniors

00:59:10.400 and you just trust your doctor and the next thing you know you've done it well i want to by the way

00:59:15.680 comment on that one because i got asked by clients to do a study of it because clients who have daughters

00:59:20.260 were interested and so we did a study of gardasil it's not that hard a lot of it a great deal of it is

00:59:27.120 on the fda website and of course on on uh in bobby's book uh there's a lot of good information

00:59:33.180 but gardasil is a product to stop cervical cancer which people get in their 50s so you're giving it

00:59:39.900 to a nine-year-old girl and you look at your nine-year-old girl and it's a perfect product

00:59:44.640 because from a marketing point of view because you say well i don't want her to have cervical cancer

00:59:48.780 well first of all cervical cancer is highly survivable it's not that common and additionally it's

00:59:54.980 something that she would get if she gets it in 40 years and that we have to assume that in 40 years

01:00:00.980 there'd be no better treatment than there is today and we have to assume that the gardasil vaccine works

01:00:06.020 and we have to assume that which stops hpv it doesn't stop cancer they're claiming a link

01:00:10.820 and we have to assume that it's entirely safe which it is not so it has risks in fact macabre risks that

01:00:18.240 are listed on the package insert here's a quick thing for your audience every vaccine every product in

01:00:23.800 pharma has a has a package insert that's required by the fda but you don't see the package insert on

01:00:30.400 vaccines because you go to the pharmacy and they give you the shot or you go to your doctor and they

01:00:34.620 give you the shot ask for the package insert on gardasil read that and then anybody who wants to give

01:00:40.960 that to a nine-year-old kid or any kid i'd be really surprised about and why is it a perfect product

01:00:47.480 i said megan because their commercials for gardasil have a little girl saying mom dad do you know about

01:00:55.700 gardasil it like the little kid is the one who's going to tell you that they've done a safety study

01:01:00.540 on the product um it is a terrible vaccine and vaccines are not equal tetanus bring it on right

01:01:07.700 you have a serious injury you want a tetanus vaccine right then and there because it can lead to

01:01:12.240 lockjaw very serious not all vaccines are bad that isn't my point but these consumer products

01:01:17.480 that are you know right now we have a product that is the most promoted consumer product in history

01:01:24.760 and the most uh taken consumer product in history often not by uh not by choice more than coca-cola

01:01:32.300 and so this i'm talking about the the covid vaccines by the various american manufacturers and the one

01:01:38.760 british manufacturer and so um when you have a when you have the fda trying to hold back the safety

01:01:45.400 trials for 75 years you have to start asking questions and of course media is not doing it and

01:01:50.980 that's too bad uh too bad it's gonna start up again it's gonna start up again because now they've backed

01:01:55.540 off temporarily because they were getting hit politically and they see these midterms coming

01:02:00.260 and they realized and they saw what happened in virginia with glenn youngkin and they saw what happened

01:02:05.040 in new jersey uh where their democratic governor almost went down within three points in a race that

01:02:09.460 he was supposed to have in the bag and they backed off but we're going to go back into the fall

01:02:14.160 and the temperature is going to change in the northeast and washington dc and probably we'll have some more

01:02:19.420 covid cases and the hysteria will ramp back up as soon as those midterms are over so we're not done

01:02:24.540 with this battle i mean that's it's not over i do want to say uh my crack team because we like to remain

01:02:30.740 unplatformed um says the following the on the number of deaths after the vaccine according to

01:02:38.240 this pfizer report following up on what you said um they say among this group that the report shows

01:02:43.780 there were 42,086 reports of adverse events 1,223 reports of fatalities within a certain period of

01:02:51.940 time following vaccination jeffrey morris the director of the division of biostatistics at

01:02:56.840 upenn told usa today but this data does not mean there's a a causal relationship between the

01:03:03.120 vaccine and these events in other words the 1200 people could have died of a heart attack of something

01:03:08.120 not related to the vaccine i think that that would be pfizer's defense saying our vaccine didn't cause

01:03:14.640 that health outcome

01:03:15.680 moving on right okay moving on um this is all fascinating to me because it's all part of a massive

01:03:24.020 manipulation and a deterioration in trust and it's why people try to seek out new information

01:03:29.940 in different places and that's led to other problems okay i talked to a woman who wound up on

01:03:34.760 the on on january 6th right outside of the capitol thinking about going inside um because she'd been

01:03:40.400 getting information you know from places like reddit about trump was going to stay president right she

01:03:45.380 was misled because she distrusts cnn she doesn't believe in don lemon she did so she just started going

01:03:50.680 elsewhere for her information and went down a massive rabbit hole and when you were talking

01:03:54.980 about this i was thinking about the trans craze sweeping our teenage girls right like they're also

01:04:01.420 looking for a place to feel like they belong and we used to have that when i was a teenager too and

01:04:07.500 people might smoke pot or they'd i don't know join the cheerleaders or they whatever but today's day

01:04:14.060 and age has offered this other potentially very dangerous avenue for them where you can have your

01:04:19.320 breast cut off and you can take cross sex hormones when you might not actually have any gender

01:04:25.000 dysphoria and wind up sterilized right it's this it's sort of a cultism well you must like radioactive

01:04:32.740 subjects i do you know i'm sort of a third real kind of person but i will comment on this to say that

01:04:39.520 um you know i've raised 10 kids um all the boys uh you know came in with dresses at some point all the

01:04:47.260 girls uh did whatever they did that was more inclined toward what we consider traditionally

01:04:52.740 male activities and blah blah blah i think that there is gender dysphoria it's a very real thing

01:04:59.460 and i think that the decision to um start taking hormones for example uh needs to be taken very

01:05:06.040 carefully because now you're getting into things that are not easily reversible and obviously um you

01:05:12.020 know uh actual genital surgery or removal of breasts these are not things you back away from

01:05:17.000 very easily i think it's interesting that when somebody wants to um transition and goes through

01:05:23.040 the whole process and now there's you know there's a an institution of people ready to do that doctors

01:05:28.880 ready to do it people ready to encourage it pharma products ready to uh to be used as always well when

01:05:35.240 that happens uh you are welcomed however for those few people who would like to reverse gender

01:05:43.260 reassignment surgery they are pariahs they are some kind of betrayer there's some kind of of you know

01:05:50.520 they should be canceled it's just a fascinating thing because anything that becomes any medical or

01:05:56.460 emotional issue that becomes a a cultural and social issue is problematic and i know i i would hope that

01:06:04.860 anybody who wants to do uh you know transition surgery does it as an adult and that's right of course

01:06:12.580 that's one parent speaking but i wanted to say something about one parent speaking freedom of

01:06:19.360 speech is specifically about things we disagree with otherwise you wouldn't need freedom of speech

01:06:25.240 if everybody felt the same way and so is it okay for me to have any opinion is it okay for

01:06:31.360 rfk to have an opinion or dr robert malone to have an opinion the answer today or you megan the answer

01:06:38.060 today is no it is not okay it is not okay you'll get into what would be called forbidden speech and

01:06:45.540 there's misinformation that's just an error there's disinformation that's uh an intentional error and

01:06:52.540 designed to mislead people they say and now there's malinformation do you know that one megan have you heard

01:06:57.240 that one malinformation is information that might or might not be accurate but tends to diminish

01:07:05.020 confidence in the government that's called malinformation and so you know we've been here

01:07:11.020 before i like to say on all of these things i go historically as you see in my books as well

01:07:15.180 on all of these things it is not the first time that a culture is facing totalitarian behaviors

01:07:23.100 uh by government you could blame it on trump you can blame it on biden or clinton anybody you want

01:07:28.480 but ultimately the federal government is so powerful at the moment that it can control information

01:07:34.700 with complete impunity which is going on right now and you know these things throughout human history

01:07:41.560 some people have sought to control others typically a minority of people right down to the king and queen

01:07:49.120 you can't have a smaller minority than that controlling entire populations that is history and a very

01:07:55.560 quick thing is that if you looked at world history as a pie the entire pie is totalitarian

01:08:03.260 leadership and governance other than a tiny tiny sliver which is the united states and western europe

01:08:10.720 it's not permanent it's not destined to be permanent and most societies move toward greater and greater

01:08:18.440 control of the population and you know favorably uh in 2020 uh a book that hadn't been in print i mean

01:08:27.040 hadn't been published for 70 years it was 70 years old uh suddenly became a top 20 bestseller and that was

01:08:34.940 1984 was a top 20 bestseller in 2020 isn't that interesting people are paying attention they they are

01:08:42.880 um and then but the manipulation is at every level you're right government for sure uh and media we

01:08:49.320 talked about and i one of the things i wanted to ask you about because it's an issue near and dear to my

01:08:53.260 heart is the way the media responds to these mass shootings and in particular to the school shootings

01:09:00.860 in which they take the shooter's name and his photo and they put it on loop and they make a star

01:09:07.300 out of these guys without any thought for the infamy they're giving this guy i you were one of

01:09:16.800 the first people who raised this in my life i can't even remember what you wrote that i read it in but it

01:09:21.480 was it was condemning the media for not understanding how that's being part of the problem and since then

01:09:26.940 many others have written about it as well and the media continues to do it and i understand as a member

01:09:31.480 of the media maybe we have a system where like the ap or we have some agreement where somebody

01:09:36.920 reports the name of the shooter and some facts about the shooter and some some basic bio about

01:09:41.140 the shooter you know it's i'm not saying as a journalistic matter it's totally irrelevant

01:09:44.360 it is relevant um but the lionization almost of these guys is playing a factor in the repeat

01:09:52.480 nature of these crimes is it not oh very much and i it's not done in every country uh there you know

01:09:58.960 in england you can't name the perpetrator until after a trial and uh there are various reasons

01:10:04.260 that's the case but the the upshot of it is that you don't have what you have in america i'll give

01:10:09.200 you a good example of when president reagan was shot by john hinckley um from that point on we saw

01:10:16.440 hinckley's boyhood home interview with neighbors we obviously saw his name all of his pictures through

01:10:21.620 high school we saw him being escorted by federal agents to a waiting helicopter and the whole experience

01:10:27.460 is almost an equalizing of the target which is the president and the assassin who is the shooter

01:10:34.540 and the and i strongly oppose all forms of of um lionization or uh creating a star out of an

01:10:44.460 assassin and yet it's gone on forever the the uh unabomber who i mentioned earlier is on the cover

01:10:50.660 of time and newsweek at the time and it says genius uh because he was he'd written such an intelligent

01:10:56.940 manifesto or was perceived as a genius by somebody the point being that you ought not be able to

01:11:02.600 enter the world of great goings-on with simply a handgun and a few bullets and that is what we give

01:11:08.920 in america we the media gives and i think some don't by the way i've observed your own hesitation

01:11:15.520 about it i've seen people not do it but the immediate turning of a really a a loser uh who could not

01:11:25.600 influence world events by any method other than shooting a senator or shooting at a president or

01:11:31.720 doing a mass shooting turning that person into an enormous star um is damaging because it encourages

01:11:39.420 others and we always saw and we tracked it in my company that within a few weeks of a mass shooting

01:11:46.220 you would have another well now they're weekly anyway so that issue has resolved itself but the point

01:11:51.700 being that you are encouraging others and you are saying among the large menu of choices that a

01:11:57.880 young people can choose in their lives of who to be what to be now there's a new character oh i can be

01:12:04.460 that mass shooter at columbine in that cool black jacket that was worn uh by so and so in in such and

01:12:11.580 such movie i can be like that and i don't have a lot of other good options right my parents aren't good

01:12:17.240 to me my community isn't good to me i'm a loner i'm alienated but i can be a big deal just like john

01:12:23.860 hinckley just like mark david chapman who killed john lennon i can be for a brief time as famous as

01:12:30.280 the person i kill that is an a menu item offered up in america by the media uh that should be uh tempered

01:12:39.220 that should be tempered i'm just thinking about this there's a new protocol in media where if somebody

01:12:44.540 dies by suicide you it's not considered okay to talk about the method by which they did it and

01:12:52.200 because they've they understand that you know i for lack of a better word it can be contagious like

01:12:57.580 it can place the idea in somebody's head yes we saw it right around the time of anthony bourdain and

01:13:01.880 kate spade and some others and i think that's a fine responsible practice by the media but why is the

01:13:07.180 media so responsive to that issue and on this issue where you've got massive deaths and we do have a

01:13:13.180 massive problem with these shootings in america they don't care at all it's like they need their

01:13:18.520 b-roll they need something to keep the screen interesting and make you buy their paper and

01:13:23.820 they don't see their role in contributing to this danger at all yeah and then the replaying it of

01:13:30.200 course over and over and over again the helicopter view of the school and the cops surrounding the

01:13:34.620 school and the kids being hustled out and it another element of this is that it's scary images for

01:13:40.520 kids who too many of them are at dinner with the television news on you know against my best

01:13:46.780 recommendation but nonetheless never let my kids are doing that never yeah yeah it's not it's not good

01:13:51.220 stuff and so uh it leads to being afraid in the world and people who are afraid are actually um

01:13:58.560 less effective citizens we're seeing that right now with uh with covid you know fear of covid

01:14:04.720 we my company did a report back in the beginning of 2020 uh on uh you know who was at risk because

01:14:13.220 when i first heard about covid and you might be the same all i heard was over 60 die right and it's

01:14:19.600 it might be on the box the pizza box that's delivered it won't be on the pizza by some miracle

01:14:24.160 but it'll be on the outside of the box and so that's all we knew but very quickly a report came out of

01:14:29.540 italy nine months before the united states cdc provided the same information for some reason

01:14:34.680 and it came out of italy and it demonstrated that over 94 of the people who died had up to three

01:14:42.100 comorbidities now that's 4.7 by 3.7 in the united states uh so they they were already suffering from

01:14:49.600 up to three lethal diseases and how old were they so more than 90 of them were over 75 the average age

01:14:57.880 was 79 it's now moved to 81 the average occupancy where do they live where did they live they lived

01:15:05.440 in nursing homes 71 of the people who died attributed to covid in canada lived in nursing

01:15:11.380 homes so what that tells me is that if you're my 21 year old son uh you really don't have to focus

01:15:18.060 a great deal on fear of covid but we have a frightened population we have a frightened population england

01:15:24.840 doesn't in the same way interestingly england had bombing in world war ii from uh from germany and

01:15:30.780 they have that's the phrase of having a stiff upper lip you know we go to we go to work i remember

01:15:35.920 at another big fear uh fear fest was y2k most of your viewers won't remember it it sounds funny to

01:15:43.740 even describe it but you remember just trying to describe this to my kids turn right when the clock

01:15:48.460 turned to the new years on two in the year 2000 all devices would stop working your thermostat and your

01:15:54.180 refrigerator and your aircraft and your missile systems everything would stop working because

01:15:58.760 there was no way for the thing to turn over there were yeah tens of millions of dollars spent on y2k

01:16:04.940 compliance my company spent four hundred thousand dollars on y2k compliance being sure anyway i had

01:16:10.900 to fly to england on new year's eve i went to lax nobody there and there were news crews interviewing

01:16:18.300 the few people who were there flying and i flew on british airways 21 people on the plane normally holds

01:16:23.540 more than 300 and the pilot walks through the cabin at one point and i stopped him and i said why are

01:16:28.940 you guys flying american airlines united uh delta continental at those days none of them were flying

01:16:35.140 why are you guys flying and the guy said the pilot said because it's on the schedule um which was very

01:16:41.160 british because it's on the schedule uh america is is a country that you know i write books about fear

01:16:47.840 it's a very frightened country and and it's generally unwarranted fear and leaders throughout

01:16:55.320 human history have used fear to control populations and boy is that happening right now

01:17:00.420 that's got to be your next book like the downside of fear the gift of fear was it resonated and is so

01:17:08.400 true in so many ways but yeah you're right there are some massive downsides of fear and and one of the

01:17:13.480 big ones is it can be used by people in positions of power to manipulate us so how do we figure out when

01:17:20.580 that's what's happening or when the gift is kicking in that we're supposed to listen to

01:17:26.080 we'll pick it up right there after a quick break more with gavin de becker love this conversation

01:17:32.120 so that was a provocative question that we left off on right your your best-selling book that is

01:17:42.300 called the gift of fear and it for people who haven't read it a you need to and b it's about

01:17:47.920 how fear is a gift that intuition that sort of that the hairs on the back of your neck rising up when

01:17:53.340 you see somebody listen to them listen to that that's something instinctual inside of you that's

01:17:59.380 telling you you're in danger but fear can be exploited by bad people or powerful people with

01:18:06.300 bad motives politically and culturally in a way where maybe it's not so so much of a gift so expand

01:18:15.240 on that uh sure the the issue is um is it true fear or unwarranted fear so my book and the benefits of

01:18:26.520 intuition by the way intuition the root of the word in tear means to guard and protect and that's

01:18:32.360 what it does for us our intuition which knows everything much more than we do it knows the

01:18:36.900 distance of the sound and the scent of the smell and it and whether we saw that person earlier and

01:18:42.840 whether that's the same car that was there early it knows all kinds of things that we haven't

01:18:46.520 consciously assessed but the issue is is it true fear or unwarranted fear so i'll give a very quick

01:18:52.940 description of those two true fear is always something in your environment that you sense

01:19:00.300 you see it you hear it you smell it you touch it that is true fear and the unwarranted fear is always

01:19:07.940 based on your imagination or your memory something in your imagination or your memory so i'll give you

01:19:13.300 a real example you're at the airport you're about to board a flight and you get that feeling that

01:19:18.320 sometimes people get which is don't board this flight don't board this flight this plane's going to

01:19:22.080 crash etc if that is based on you know a news video you saw of a crash in caracas venezuela three

01:19:29.600 months ago that is unwarranted fear based on memory uh or imagination but if it's based on seeing the

01:19:36.680 two pilots stumble out of the bar drunk and board your flight um that's true fear because it's something

01:19:42.520 you sense in your environment it's a somewhat you know comedic example of the thing but my but the

01:19:47.520 point stands which is that um true fear is always something in your environment that you uh you

01:19:55.040 sense and unwarranted fear is always something that you imagine or you remember and so when we are

01:20:01.840 presented with something to fear by a government or a corporation or a friend uh or a spouse when we

01:20:08.600 are presented with fears that someone is trying to program into us we have to always ask the question

01:20:14.640 why are they doing it number one and to really dig in and understand the fear so for example fear of

01:20:22.220 covid or before it mad cow disease or before it flesh eating disease or before it y2k or before it

01:20:29.340 killer bees or anything else that we are being encouraged to fear and we have to learn and understand

01:20:35.660 and that's why you know in the blurb that i did for bobby kennedy's book i said you don't have to agree

01:20:41.240 or disagree with anything but you have an obligation in a democracy to learn the details associated any

01:20:47.940 time they tell you to fear something so when we're told to fear the terrible enemy that's coming uh you

01:20:53.880 know uh george bush we got to take the fight to them uh met weapons of mass destruction well 700 000

01:21:01.280 people killed in iraq uh untold billions uh thousands of our own troops killed and there weren't weapons of

01:21:08.120 mass destruction so all right then why did you want us to have that fear of uh of you know

01:21:14.620 hussein sending over terrorists we want to know why and we want to fully understand it so in the

01:21:19.460 present moment we're told originally fear covid protect your children i don't think there's one

01:21:25.400 healthy child in america not one that has provably died from covid uh you have you have kids in the

01:21:30.820 hospital dying and covid is part of what they have and likely part of what killed them if they're

01:21:36.020 already sick but what we needed to hear from the well if i can just say that the problem with that

01:21:41.760 is they haven't released the information the hospitals all along have been just doing deaths

01:21:46.380 from covid in the hospitals as opposed to dying from covid in the hospitals and only very very late

01:21:51.200 in the game did any any one of them try to start making that distinction and same thing with the

01:21:56.020 children they wouldn't tell us how many had comorbidities they just tried to scare us so i understand

01:22:00.720 the confusion on this is like we still don't have accurate data sorry go ahead no yeah it's true and

01:22:06.580 i i've got the video of even fauci explaining that some of the people whose deaths are attributed to

01:22:12.660 covid or hospitalizations are attributed to covid might be there for appendicitis um but they also

01:22:18.480 tested positive for covid so that's with covid versus from covid which is an important issue but on

01:22:24.100 on my main point in the beginning of covid like in the beginning of uh you know after 9-11 with terrorism

01:22:31.040 what happens is events happen so 9-11 happened and then everybody comes forward to see how can they

01:22:38.940 exploit it example i was giving a speech for the for the federal government in dc for directors of

01:22:45.800 security for all the federal agencies and in the middle i gave one speech then i did a q a and then

01:22:51.560 i gave a closing comment and in between there was a break and a guy came up to me and said boy i really

01:22:56.040 agree with you you're really doing great stuff i said oh you know what do you do he said i'm with a

01:22:59.920 company that whatever the name of it was that reinforces federal buildings with extra concrete and

01:23:05.880 bulletproof windows i said oh uh i said that's interesting because in the entire history of the

01:23:11.980 country there's only been uh one incident of a federal building being attacked so he said no no you're

01:23:18.380 wrong it's really like it's like wearing a seat belt i said brother that's nothing like wearing

01:23:22.820 a seat belt spending 300 million dollars to reinforce a building when when it's only happened

01:23:27.860 once in our history is not like wearing a seat belt where you have thousands of people killed in cars

01:23:31.740 every year and so that he that company comes forward to exploit you know let's say 9-11 uh what

01:23:39.160 happened every building in new york suddenly had security uh asking for id you remember you were there

01:23:45.360 asking for id before you go into the building but that's not what happened at 9-11 airplanes were

01:23:50.120 flown into buildings at 9-11 and asking for id does not prevent an airplane from hitting your building

01:23:55.500 so it's never a match the the exploitation method is rarely a match for what actually happened but is

01:24:02.480 always a match for the fear the fear will always be exploited in covet in the beginning we're told

01:24:08.200 instant death you're going to drop dead on the street look at this footage from from uh somebody

01:24:12.880 falling down in china but the reality was that our children and our and our teens and people in

01:24:20.620 their 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s if they were healthy had very very low risk of death from covid

01:24:27.420 and uh that's just the reality that hasn't changed uh but americans weren't told that they were told

01:24:33.240 the opposite where were the leaders who would say uh you're going to be fine yeah you're going to be

01:24:38.920 you know we had we had uh south dakota governor christine oman earlier this week she was one of

01:24:43.320 the few i mean reading up on her backstory she just has a book out called not my first rodeo

01:24:47.580 she was one of the few she was bold and it was because of these first principles she knew as a

01:24:51.620 just as a person who would lead saying trust the people you know trust the people and the actual

01:24:56.300 people you know she lives in a state of ranchers and farmers who know the land and they know how to

01:25:00.060 take care of themselves and they don't need big government telling them go left or go right

01:25:04.340 um and it turned out to be such a great example right it's like my state new york went a different

01:25:09.780 way it's one of it's actually been one of my teachings i don't mean teachings by me but i mean

01:25:15.320 teachings that i've received in the last two years which is i was as um bigoted as anybody about the

01:25:23.060 flyover states and just assumed that you know only intelligent people lived on the two coasts i don't

01:25:29.080 mean it quite as bad as i'm making it sound but it was somewhere in my it was somewhere in my

01:25:34.000 dna that the people you know were somehow uh less able to make good decisions but boy have i learned

01:25:42.620 through covid that people intuitively maybe 50 maybe 60 of the country if you went by the child

01:25:49.400 vaccines it might be 80 of the country just intuitively don't want to give these vaccines

01:25:54.740 to a six-month-old for god's sake um or a three-year-old and so i've learned the wisdom of the people

01:26:02.440 that i've embraced much more in the last two years than i ever had before i'm ashamed to admit but also

01:26:07.700 proud to to acknowledge that i've come this distance and you know you mentioned um uh noam

01:26:13.400 and then there's desantis right here you have a state the department of health in florida by the way

01:26:18.940 run by a harvard trained doctor joe latipo it's 13 000 people the department of health florida is a huge

01:26:26.360 state i think it might be 22 or 25 million citizens it's bigger than most countries on earth

01:26:31.280 and they've come to the decision to recommend against these vaccines for children are they

01:26:37.260 mentally ill are they crazy no they're real public officials and and public servants and elected

01:26:42.940 officials who've looked at the information and made this decision and i'm just disappointed that

01:26:48.580 more states haven't done it no dr latipo is amazing he came on the show and we had a long

01:26:52.480 discussion and and he's been demonized too went from california to florida um but they they've got

01:26:58.100 stats to back up their beliefs and then the results and even now you know now you have all these honest

01:27:04.220 doctors online the great barrington declaration uh doctors behind that some of the most respected

01:27:09.240 physicians in the world uh it's very clear who we should be listening to it's less clear whether we

01:27:14.440 will all right let me let me steal the last the last 10 minutes or so where our show's almost over

01:27:20.360 um just for those people because i'm thinking about my intern here gwendoline she's going off to

01:27:25.140 college and she does she hasn't read the book yet gavin but she's going to um and just illuminating

01:27:31.220 folks on what that gift is because the gift of fear the good side of it and when you should listen

01:27:36.460 to it in your book you tell the story of kelly who was a rape victim and this woman gave you such a

01:27:41.900 harrowing account of what happened to her there are so many lessons in it and you'll when people read

01:27:46.820 the book they'll get it but she she made all the wrong decisions in the beginning with this guy

01:27:52.740 she had her groceries she was going into her apartment building he offered to help her with

01:27:55.680 her groceries she didn't want it he pushed it she wound up changing her no into a yes he got up to

01:28:00.880 the apartment he was like let me take them in she's no but then she turned her no into a yes and she felt

01:28:05.540 bad and she did what all we women tend to do which is she didn't want to be rude you don't want to be

01:28:10.100 rude i know this is also from your book you go get into the elevator in the parking garage and

01:28:14.120 there's a creepy guy in there and he's standing there and you're standing there it's very clear

01:28:17.360 you press the button and your instincts tell you don't get in the elevator and what do you do you

01:28:21.860 get in anyway because you don't want to be rude and you make the point of like you're getting into a

01:28:25.820 locked box with a person your intuition is telling you is dangerous because you don't want to be rude

01:28:30.480 are you insane right so listen to it but this is the piece i wanted to raise with you her instincts

01:28:35.880 kicked in and that she had been raped by this man but and he he said if you know don't complain and i

01:28:43.620 won't kill you but she knew at the end not to believe that this is from your book um if you

01:28:50.800 asked her you asked her um like what what made basically what made you understand you had to get

01:28:57.360 out of there at the end as opposed to listening to him and she says um i don't know she took a long

01:29:03.300 pause gazing off past me looking back at him in the bedroom um she says oh i do know i get it

01:29:11.020 noise was the thing that's why he closed the window that's how i knew you go on since he was

01:29:17.320 dressed and supposedly leaving he had no other reason to close her window it was that subtle

01:29:22.400 signal that warned her but it was fear that gave her the courage to get up after she'd been raped

01:29:28.060 without hesitation and follow close behind the man as he was leaving her bedroom going to another room

01:29:34.260 who intended to kill her she later described a fear so complete that it replaced every feeling in her

01:29:40.280 body like an animal hiding inside of her it opened up to its full size and stood up using the muscles

01:29:47.500 in her legs she writes she said i had nothing to do with it i was a passenger moving down that hallway

01:29:53.960 she walked out opened the door went over to the neighbor's house that person let her in in that

01:30:00.680 condition she did a shh and she lived and that man who raped her had murdered at least another person

01:30:07.580 who didn't have that gift kick that kick in didn't realize the promise of i won't kill you if you

01:30:13.800 comply wasn't true so can you just educate us a bit on the gift how it works and how we know when to

01:30:22.220 listen sure and by the way even as i hear that story um i get chills now and i remember very well

01:30:29.740 hearing it the first time and then hearing from so many people who've been victimized over the years

01:30:34.640 who said to me well i say how did you know that you should get away from that person they say i don't

01:30:38.960 know how i knew and then if i just am quiet for a moment here come the details uh like that tiny

01:30:44.840 detail for her that led her to do this tremendously courageous thing of literally walking right down the

01:30:50.960 hall right behind him she said to me if i had breathed he could feel my breath on the back of his neck but i

01:30:56.380 didn't breathe and then he went on to the kitchen to get a knife interestingly and she uh you know

01:31:01.600 turned and went out her her uh door and went into the door across the hall which she knew would be

01:31:06.920 open and so what's going on there is that uh true fear which she hadn't felt fear by the way up until

01:31:12.480 that moment she said it was amazing that she hadn't been afraid of him she was you know very reluctant

01:31:18.180 to uh be raped obviously and very resistant but she had not felt fear that she would be killed

01:31:23.960 until that moment and uh true fear gives you a dose of some uh adrenaline that's a famous thing we all

01:31:32.520 know but also cortisol which is a brain chemical most people don't know about cortisol uh causes your

01:31:38.620 muscles to swell up basically becoming a kind of armor um causes your blood to clot more quickly in the

01:31:45.300 event that you are you know stabbed for example and and causes all these brain chemicals together

01:31:51.800 basically get your arms and your legs ready for combat uh and that's how they work and so if we if

01:31:57.140 we accept that the natural signals that we get not the information that we think about like there's a

01:32:03.440 woman i'll tell you super quickly um a woman i interviewed for my second book who had somebody

01:32:09.820 followed her and her her daughter as they walked a long walk at night from a movie theater and he'd given

01:32:15.420 to the creeps in line he'd said to her oh is it ladies night out because there were a bunch of

01:32:19.440 mothers and their daughters taking the kids to see a movie and and he had a um t-shirt with a slogan on

01:32:27.420 that gave her the creeps everything gave her the creeps and then as she's walking in the night she

01:32:31.260 realizes he's following her to the car and so she doesn't want to tell her daughter to speed up because

01:32:35.840 if they run he'd be able to run faster and so she just accelerates her daughter slightly they get to

01:32:40.880 the car she puts her daughter in the car first and locks that door so she can get around to the

01:32:46.420 passenger side and when she gets to the passenger side he is on her already and he's holding her

01:32:51.320 legs she hasn't swung her legs into the car yet and she's looking at him and she suddenly gets this

01:32:56.940 signal in her mind car key and she thinks to herself well i don't want to be the kind of person who

01:33:03.080 sticks a a car key into somebody's eyes because he was right there in front of her and that's when

01:33:08.500 she realizes she's already done it and she's already driven away and the car door has already slammed

01:33:14.680 shut and her daughter says to her uh mama you haven't put your seat belt on yet all of that

01:33:20.240 happens automatically i want to say quickly megan for your audience i there's an advanced view that's

01:33:25.940 available for free at called gift of fear.com and that's a gift of fear masterclass interviews with

01:33:32.440 me with all kinds of people who have prevailed through violence and it's a nine-part thing and i

01:33:38.280 want your intern to see it and your kids to see it before they go off to college and any kids to see it

01:33:42.720 it's free and it's it's basically uh put on there as an advanced view i think it'll always be free

01:33:48.780 who knows but it's free right now gift of fear.com i'm i'm gonna go and take it myself i would 100%

01:33:55.380 take your masterclass i would actually enjoy it i think um you're just somebody who has helped me so

01:34:01.120 many times you've kept me safe actually as a client but also just all thanks to your teachings over the

01:34:06.340 past 30 years and i'm incredibly grateful to you gavin as are so many public officials and

01:34:13.400 celebrities and regular folks um please come back and we'll take a deeper dive into crime and fear

01:34:19.260 and all the rest of it so great having access to your expertise thank you megan for everything you

01:34:24.420 do as well thank you so much all the best gavin becker wow he did not disappoint i can't wait to take

01:34:30.620 that masterclass by the way there's another masterclass out there by victor davis hansen which you should

01:34:34.380 also take tomorrow we've got a few great guests including glenn greenwald and filmmaker nancy

01:34:39.780 armstrong now she's also a friend of mine and she's brilliant and she's done this fascinating

01:34:44.260 documentary on adhd uh and children and medications and very famous people who have it and the upsides of

01:34:53.380 it and the downsides of it and i watched the whole thing and i was riveted and i was like my audience

01:34:58.380 is gonna love this so we're gonna talk to her and glenn about all the latest goings on

01:35:01.900 and uh january 6th and all of it don't miss the show and in the meantime download us and follow

01:35:05.560 us on youtube and we'll see you tomorrow thanks for listening to the megan kelly show no bs

01:35:11.340 no agenda and no fear

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The Megyn Kelly Show - June 30, 2022

Free Speech Pushback, the Gift of Fear, and Dangers of Fame, with Gavin de Becker ｜ Ep. 348

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