The Megyn Kelly Show - Free Speech Suppression, and a Culture Leading to Mass Shootings, with Keith Rabois and John Kass

00:00:00.360 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.320 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:14.940 The Biden administration continues trying to spin bad economic news,

00:00:18.980 while the shadow 2024 presidential campaign may already be underway.

00:00:25.000 I don't know if you're going to like your choices.

00:00:27.120 California Governor Gavin Newsom, who basically just survived a recall,

00:00:33.400 now thinks he should be president.

00:00:34.820 This is like de Blasio, the loser mayor of New York,

00:00:37.780 who had like a 2% approval rating, thinking he could run for president.

00:00:42.240 Anyway, now Governor Newsom is running ads against Ron DeSantis in Florida over the weekend

00:00:47.840 with the whole goal of getting people like me to talk about it.

00:00:51.280 So I guess it's a win for him.

00:00:52.940 But we do need to discuss whether this guy has a real political future because he was

00:00:57.120 wanting to be president in his cradle.

00:01:00.920 That's not that's never the kind of person you want,

00:01:03.300 though they're all egomaniacs to get into that that position.

00:01:07.360 I mean, that's just the truth.

00:01:08.460 Very few after George Washington didn't die for the job or die wanting it.

00:01:13.960 OK, meantime, tech censorship continues as our pal Dave Rubin

00:01:17.660 and Jordan Peterson remain locked out of their Twitter accounts.

00:01:21.800 They're not technically banned, but they cannot go back on Twitter until they delete

00:01:24.980 their accounts referring to the woman formerly known as Ellen Page,

00:01:30.680 who now says she's a man and goes by Elliot Page as Ellen Page.

00:01:35.940 That's what they did.

00:01:37.440 OK, and so now they're locked out of their Twitter accounts.

00:01:39.660 Jordan Peterson suggested that she had she Ellen Page had her breasts removed by a criminal

00:01:45.420 doctor and says he would he would sooner die rather than take down that tweet.

00:01:50.360 All right.

00:01:50.640 Elon Musk has just weighed in and Elon Musk is a man our guest today knows pretty well.

00:01:57.560 This our guest today is familiar with all of this.

00:01:59.240 Actually, he's an investor.

00:02:00.160 He's an entrepreneur and technology exec named Keith Raboi.

00:02:05.940 He was a member of the so-called PayPal mafia.

00:02:08.580 That's where Elon started, too, and went on to serve in influential roles at LinkedIn,

00:02:13.200 Square, Open Door, to name just a few.

00:02:15.740 He's got a great eye for what's going to succeed when it comes to venture capital.

00:02:20.120 He's a general partner at leading venture capitalist firm Founders Fund.

00:02:24.900 He lived in San Francisco for many, many years, but not too long ago, he made the move like so

00:02:30.260 many to Florida and in particular to Miami on the politics of the tech industry and the

00:02:36.520 pitfalls of tech censorship. There is so much to get to with Keith.

00:02:44.580 Keith, welcome to the show.

00:02:46.000 Pleasure to be with you.

00:02:47.340 So, first of all, I know Miami is better than San Francisco, but can you even say that now in July?

00:02:54.640 In July, those of us who grew up on the East Coast taking our cheaper than normal trips to Disney

00:03:01.140 during July and August know the pain. So what are your feelings about Florida in the summer?

00:03:06.520 Florida is amazing in the summer. I think this is one of those myths. It's like misinformation.

00:03:10.600 It's like 85 degrees, but there's a natural breeze. Everybody wears relaxing clothes. It's much

00:03:15.760 better than D.C. where I worked as a lawyer, New York where I grew up, where you sit in this

00:03:19.940 middle of this concrete jungle and you just get baked in heat. So I think there's this like

00:03:24.600 stereotypes about Florida. Like there's this conspiracy where it's not really true. We keep

00:03:29.900 waiting. All my friends who moved here in the last two years keep waiting for this unbearable

00:03:33.920 Florida summer and we just enjoy it.

00:03:36.900 It's coming. It's coming. I've spent enough time down there in the summer to know. But

00:03:41.920 it's nice to hear that you're having a positive experience there because we may all need to

00:03:45.860 move to Florida soon. The entire country may need to drive to Florida.

00:03:48.000 I think it's a good idea. Yeah. I think everybody should escape Alcatraz and move to Florida.

00:03:52.840 So take us back because as we pointed out in the intro, things did not begin for you

00:03:57.820 in Miami, Florida. And so where were you raised? Where'd you grow up?

00:04:02.820 I grew up in New Jersey and then I actually escaped New Jersey to go to Stanford for college

00:04:08.120 and then spent time in law school on the East Coast, clerked on the Fifth Circuit and then

00:04:12.780 wound up basically starting my professional career in both D.C. and New York. And then in

00:04:17.320 2000, at the height of the internet bubble, I moved to the Bay Area and started this journey

00:04:23.280 with a bunch of misfits now known as PayPal Lafayette. Now, how did you I'm in New Jersey

00:04:28.580 now? We spent our summers on Jersey Shore. So how did you forgive me, but like white kid

00:04:33.540 from New Jersey get into Stanford and Harvard Law? You're too polite to say you went to Harvard

00:04:38.140 Law, but you did. Great question. It probably wasn't quite as politically correct back then

00:04:44.140 in terms of conditions. I don't know if I could probably get admitted today, but, you know,

00:04:49.680 obviously I optimized my resume pretty substantially, you know, my GPA, all my activities in high

00:04:58.320 school. I probably ran like seven different clubs and, you know, and focused on getting,

00:05:03.660 you know, perfect scores on all the standardized tests, which I guess are bad these days.

00:05:08.100 Yeah, that's right. You did the wrong thing by today's standards. Your number one thing today

00:05:12.380 would be you're, you're too pale and you have the wrong anatomy.

00:05:17.100 Yeah, but being Jewish doesn't count and being gay, I guess, counts to some people, but not to

00:05:22.540 other people. That's right. Oh no, being Jewish definitely doesn't. I mean, if anything, that

00:05:26.600 would be a strike against you. Same as being Asian. I mean, this is like our crazy admission

00:05:29.800 standards today are so weird and wrong and discriminatory and in a new direction. Okay. So,

00:05:36.520 so you, you go, you get this, you know, white shoe education, amazing education. And then,

00:05:42.600 then you move out to Silicon Valley after, after you did a stint at Sullivan and Cromwell, great,

00:05:46.700 great firm in, in, in Washington, um, and decided like most of us, cause I did my stint at Jones day,

00:05:52.580 uh, and said that, well, this sucks. This is no way to go through life. Is that, and, but then unlike

00:05:57.300 me who went to like the lowly profession of journalism, you were really smart and decided to get into,

00:06:02.680 into tech. Yeah, I got, I got somewhat lucky. I had some, um, friends from college at Stanford who

00:06:09.420 had jumped into tech much earlier than me. And they kept lobbying me every year in the mid to late

00:06:14.920 nineties to leave law and join the tech crusade there. They actually used the term, it was a gold

00:06:20.800 rush and they were right historically without even benefits of hindsight. And every year they would

00:06:25.300 lobby me to come back and visit and try to convince me to drop the practice of law. Actually, I was a pretty

00:06:30.900 proficient lawyer and for the most part, enjoyed practicing law for the three and a half years I

00:06:34.980 did after clerking. And so it took a long time to four years for them to persuade me. But then in

00:06:40.720 February of 2000, I just quit cold Turkey and jumped completely into the practice of business and

00:06:46.420 internet technologies. And they were right. Actually, um, the timing was awful. It was miserable.

00:06:51.580 It was very high risk, even if I didn't really understand the risk of the time, but it ultimately worked

00:06:55.880 out. So forgive the indelicate question, but how did you make all your money? Was it the,

00:07:00.540 was it PayPal? Like what, what was the moment where you were like, Oh wow, I'm, I crossed a new

00:07:05.300 Rubicon. Good question because fortunately I just kept doing more stuff. Um, so PayPal, we, we both

00:07:13.000 went public at, uh, one of the most difficult challenges, uh, most difficult times in economic

00:07:17.760 history in the United States. We went public in February, 2002, which is a pretty difficult

00:07:22.300 accomplishment. And then subsequently sold the company after a public company to eBay, which gave us

00:07:28.240 a license to do more things. Um, my friends, Peter Thiel, Reed Hoffman, Max Leppchen, Jeremy

00:07:33.640 Stobelman, Chad Royley, et cetera, all went on and created new companies. And so the next thing I did

00:07:39.180 is I joined LinkedIn, but as I joined LinkedIn, I became an angel investor. So I found a couple,

00:07:44.420 you know, really interesting companies that seemed pretty crazy and radical founded my friends of mine.

00:07:48.680 Um, some of them did really well, uh, YouTube being the first one, Palantir being another one.

00:07:53.380 And that, that basically just kept compounding and gave me the license to invest in more companies,

00:07:58.720 joined another company called square before we launched that obviously has gone well,

00:08:03.740 founded a company that went public. So I never really broke down like money by the company.

00:08:07.980 It just kept trying to do more ambitious things. So are you always, you know, what's the opposite of

00:08:14.660 risk averse? It's not really risky risk taker. It's just more like open to risk because I would think

00:08:20.240 if I made a big paycheck on the first sale, let's say the, the PayPal sale or, you know, I, I think

00:08:26.040 I'd be tempted to take my ball and go home and, you know, just get my Jersey beach shore house and

00:08:31.940 like kind of take it easy, but it does take guts to keep reinvesting and keep taking risks.

00:08:37.600 Yeah. Well, I mean, you don't watch Elon, you know, on the global stage right now,

00:08:41.620 he keeps doubling and tripling down, um, probably in the most positive manner ever. Um, but I think

00:08:47.200 some people who do have success kind of retire, kind of take things easy and other people become

00:08:53.140 more ambitious and sort of predict in advance. But for me, it is always like the license to do

00:08:57.640 more stuff, to be more, more creative and take on more challenges. Uh, I actually believe that most

00:09:03.920 people are either decaying or growing. And so if you stop growing or decaying by definition,

00:09:08.280 Hmm. Hmm. Yes. I think that's a good point. So you, I was reading about your philosophy and who

00:09:15.600 you invest in, you know, as a, as a venture capitalist and that this is the name of the

00:09:19.260 game for so many people out there trying to get somebody like you to invest in their company so

00:09:22.720 that they can be an entrepreneur and they could try to make their dream come true. And when I heard

00:09:27.120 your description of what you look for, I, I couldn't help but think of, um, Adam Newman, uh, because

00:09:32.780 I just watched, we work, uh, you know, that documentary, it's not really a documentary.

00:09:36.680 It's like a docudrama. Uh, it was actually quite good, uh, with Anne Hathaway and Jared Leto.

00:09:42.560 And he seems exactly like the kind of guy you would back. I mean, forgive me for paraphrasing,

00:09:46.900 but it was something like, you know, you're looking for somebody who's a little,

00:09:49.620 I don't know if it was unstable, but my paraphrase is big dreams, huge ambition, slightly unstable

00:09:56.360 and good idea. I don't know if I'd use the word unstable, but, um, maybe synonymous or

00:10:02.980 euphemistically. Um, I basically believe that only disruptive people create disruptive companies

00:10:07.380 that effectively you have to see things and believe things that the rest of the world doesn't really

00:10:11.500 appreciate. And that tends to correlate with a personality characteristic. You have to be immune

00:10:16.340 from other people's criticism for a while. And you have to prove the world. You have to prove to

00:10:21.040 the world that you're right. And normal conformist people tend not to be very good at that.

00:10:25.420 And they actually tend to be terrified of it. And per your question about my own career,

00:10:29.540 I used to be very risk averse. I was optimizing like my whole resume to go to law school, you

00:10:34.640 know, to get into Harvard law school since I was probably in sixth grade. And so everything I did

00:10:38.340 was calculated and very traditional. And then, you know, I don't know what actually snapped in my

00:10:43.340 brain, but fundamentally I became very risk averse to risk seeking. And it really actually surprised

00:10:49.460 some of my friends who I grew up with in college. I had one very pithy, succinct way said to me,

00:10:53.780 wait, he used to be the most conservative guy I know. And now you're the most risk,

00:10:57.400 what, you know, like risk seeking guy, like what happened? And so you do have to have a

00:11:01.040 sea change. And, but the people who succeed in tech tend to have that natural DNA. So that is one of

00:11:05.800 the characteristics, one of the more important characteristics that I'm filtering people for.

00:11:09.900 It's funny because just last week I had my friend, Nancy Armstrong on who she's married to

00:11:13.760 Tim Armstrong, who's in early at Google and ran an AOL. And she's a filmmaker. She just made a film

00:11:19.740 about very famous people and not so famous people with ADHD. And, uh, she called it the disruptors

00:11:26.480 because a lot of these people go on to have very, very successful careers as entrepreneurs for some

00:11:33.780 of the reasons that you're stating. It may not make it so easy for them to get straight A's in school,

00:11:38.360 but once they get free of the constraints of the, you know, eight to four school day and get out

00:11:44.120 there and sort of mature a little bit into these energetic brains, they can, there's no limit to what

00:11:48.980 they can do. Yeah. I'll reframe that somewhat euphemistically to call ADD intellectually

00:11:54.460 curious. Um, but, uh, fundamentally the best, uh, certainly venture capitalists are intellectually

00:12:00.140 curious. If you're ADD, it's a very, it's a feature, not a bug to be a VC because every

00:12:04.600 meeting is different. Every company is different. Every stage is different. Uh, and you're going

00:12:08.040 hour by hour switching context all the time. And so to be excellent as a VC, I think you have to

00:12:13.080 actually be proficient at that and embrace it versus being challenged by the constant context

00:12:18.340 switching as an entrepreneur. It's a little bit more complicated. Focus is pretty critical to

00:12:22.540 being able to isolate a variable and master it in, in craft a solution can take hours of

00:12:29.660 concentrated effort to take days, weeks of tenacious effort. So I don't know if pure AD, ADHD works as a

00:12:36.200 founder, but it definitely works as a VC. Hmm. Wait a minute. And so just for those of us who

00:12:41.300 aren't in your world, because my understanding is the VC is the person who funds the company. And then

00:12:45.280 of course the CEO runs the company, but does the VC stay involved on the management level and like

00:12:50.180 is an advisor and as somebody who would be going focus to focus issue to issue within a company,

00:12:55.540 as opposed to amongst various companies in which he has invested.

00:13:00.700 In, in, in, in the traditional practice of venture capital over the last 50 years,

00:13:04.740 since really modern venture capital started in 1972, traditionally a venture capitalist would be

00:13:09.800 involved as a consigliere or a board member, uh, throughout the process of building a company from

00:13:14.160 beginning to IPO that has changed. There, there's now a more diverse set of styles of venture capital.

00:13:20.700 Uh, but my style is absolutely that way. When I invest in a company, I stay involved with the

00:13:25.640 founder, meet with the founder weekly, bi-weekly or monthly, and, you know, constantly giving feedback

00:13:30.300 advice, sort of serving as that proverbial consigliere. Hmm. Um, so speaking of Elon, uh, news

00:13:38.420 today on just, we haven't, we don't have an update on whether he's going to close this Twitter deal,

00:13:43.100 but we do have him weighing in on, uh, the censorship, as I mentioned in the intro of

00:13:47.740 Jordan Peterson. And then our friend, Dave Rubin, who's got a very, very large following as well.

00:13:52.460 Um, Jordan's tweet, typical of Jordan Peterson was provocative. Um, and you, you, it's considered,

00:13:58.720 it's called quote, dead naming somebody when you, when they've sort of switched genders and you

00:14:04.740 refer to them by their old name. And, um, so that's what he did. And he called the doctor who

00:14:10.100 did the surgery on Ellen page. Now Elliot page criminal. He can't get on Twitter. Dave retweeted

00:14:16.820 it to sort of expose the controversy and then also use the name Ellen page. Now he's banned from Twitter.

00:14:23.820 And so somebody asked Elon, are you, you know, are you going to be this censorious when you take over

00:14:29.620 a Twitter and Elon responded saying, yeah, he said they're meaning. No, I'm not going to be said

00:14:35.120 they're, they're going way too far in squashing dissenting opinions, which I agree with wholeheartedly.

00:14:41.160 But do we think Elon really is going to be in a position to impose this new reform on Twitter?

00:14:46.740 Cause there's so much speculation about whether this deal will ever close.

00:14:51.080 Well, I won't, I won't apply to whether the deal actually closes, but insofar as it does close,

00:14:55.760 I think Elon means what he says and he's going to implement what he says. He, or he'll find people

00:15:00.760 who will implement it and replace these people on Twitter. So it's a great thing for society.

00:15:04.940 Uh, we need a free speech platform that's global and Twitter is it. There are alternatives, but

00:15:09.220 they're not as good and not as important. And so improving society really requires a vigorous

00:15:15.540 free speech, free debate. The way you get better and smarter and faster at things is by debating them.

00:15:21.460 This is the whole, you know, history of the world, history of science and suppressing ideas. It's

00:15:26.020 just a disastrous policy. And Twitter has been suppressing ideas from the origins of COVID.

00:15:31.760 It's been suppressing ideas on anything critical of the CCP. Twitter just is a disaster and that

00:15:37.400 employee base needs to be completely reoriented. But Elon has the ability, has the skill, has the

00:15:43.120 credibility to pull that off.

00:15:44.520 Now, why, why won't you all pine on whether it's going to close? Cause two of your other pals from

00:15:49.300 the, um, the all in podcast and, you know, Dave Sachs was on along with Jason Calacanis and they both

00:15:55.420 had a lot of thoughts in the end shared them all.

00:15:58.880 Well, my opinion is it probably will close, but I think it's a financially

00:16:03.620 imprudent investment at this point. Like the market is just corrected a massive amount since that deal

00:16:09.460 was negotiated. And so if the goal is to save the planet, closing the deal makes a lot of sense for

00:16:15.960 Elon. If the goal is to convert that into a lot of money, I'm not sure it makes that much sense.

00:16:23.480 Do you think that they can renegotiate?

00:16:26.900 There's probably some clever ways to do it, but it's like how much pain and friction,

00:16:30.740 brain damage, you know, sort of you want to deal with. Elon's got a lot of other things on his plate.

00:16:34.920 It was running a few companies, uh, left and right. So, um, there's a point in time where

00:16:39.400 the friction and effort isn't worth the incremental $10 billion.

00:16:43.240 Yeah, right. Exactly. Well, let's hope his goal is to save the planet because those of us who are

00:16:47.160 living on it need a few more saviors. He's creating another planetary option for you.

00:16:54.160 Yeah. I, I'm afraid of getting on a 747. I'm certainly not getting on Elon's rocket ship.

00:17:00.680 I'm going to be like, it'll be more reliable than Boeing 787 or whatever that was.

00:17:06.780 It's probably so. I think it was Pete Davidson. Pete Davidson was like,

00:17:10.080 I'm actually busy, so I can't accept your offer of a, of a ride. I'm like,

00:17:13.760 this is my kind of guy. Like you're too busy to accept the ride to outer space. I can't even

00:17:17.740 remember it was Bezos or Elon, but big, big move. Um, can we talk, you mentioned the C the,

00:17:22.920 the Chinese and that's a big story in the news right now. TikTok, which has been sketchy all along.

00:17:28.600 I mean, the kids love it. I believe me, I have an 11 year old daughter who would love to get

00:17:33.640 TikTok, but I won't let her, but she sees it on her friend's phones. Yeah. And, uh, it's been in

00:17:38.260 the news and we all kind of knew that the Chinese, it's their app that they were using it for

00:17:43.120 something, you know, some sort of data gathering, but they denied it on the record over and over

00:17:47.540 and over. And, uh, they've sort of, even in testimony before Congress, their U S reps have

00:17:51.860 said, no, no, no, we're not calling us data. We're definitely not selling or sharing that data

00:17:56.960 with our Chinese counterparts. You know, we've, we've walled it off. And now it emerges in this

00:18:01.980 Buzzfeed story where they apparently they got their hands on dozens and dozens of tapes

00:18:05.920 of executives of the company, admitting that they are mining our data. They are sharing it

00:18:11.160 with their Chinese counterparts. And now just today, um, it's the, I want to get my committee

00:18:16.660 correct. I think it's Senate intelligence committee. Yeah. They're jointly urging the

00:18:20.940 federal trade commission to investigate the app, um, over the fact that it is letting Chinese

00:18:25.420 employees access the data of Americans. So can I ask you that, first of all, I don't actually

00:18:30.380 understand what data they can get. You know, if I were to let my daughter download Tik TOK,

00:18:35.940 which I won't, she doesn't even have a phone, but if I were to allow all that, what could

00:18:41.140 they find out about her? Well, it's unclear. And that's part of the problem. It also depends

00:18:46.280 upon whether she uses an iPhone or Android device. Uh, so an iPhone is more restrictive and probably

00:18:51.100 more secure than maybe any Android phone. Um, but fundamentally they could certainly find,

00:18:56.460 you know, track her geo track, um, you know, potentially contacts. Um, but there are more

00:19:02.260 nefarious things that one can probably do and they probably have done. Uh, so I wouldn't take

00:19:07.700 at a superficial level, just the standard data that like people are inputting into like Tik TOK,

00:19:14.020 like what are they clicking on? There are ways to extract more private data. And I am sure,

00:19:20.200 you know, the Chinese have at least thought about it and selectively done this, but the thing

00:19:23.740 that's crazy in this whole TK debate is none of this should have been a surprise. Chinese

00:19:29.800 law explicitly requires TK to collect this data and provide it to the Communist Party of

00:19:34.740 China. And so there's no possibility of running a company in China without doing this. It's

00:19:39.360 like illegal. And so it, it just absolutely mystifies me. You can read a great article by

00:19:45.000 my husband in front of policy where two years ago, three years ago, he explained this for

00:19:48.900 everybody that there's no possibility of legally running a company in China that has a headquarters

00:19:54.900 in China without exploiting us users data. And, you know, Trump was on the right side of history

00:20:00.480 for a moment when he was going to ban Tik TOK. And then he went out, he actually literally went

00:20:05.040 out because of people complaining and whining. And it just really costs, you know, America a lot

00:20:11.280 of national security. Now we are in significant jeopardy because Trump was a complete win.

00:20:17.280 Hmm. I, I mean, I, he was like standing up to Tik TOK in a way that he was standing up verbally.

00:20:23.520 It was easy to say, Oh, Tik TOK took them up. And then as soon as the administration,

00:20:26.880 people administration who realized the national security implications wanted to ban Tik TOK,

00:20:30.680 which is not that, not that radical idea, by the way, India has banned Tik TOK. Nothing's

00:20:34.280 happened in India. India is still like got a, you know, a very vibrant entrepreneurial culture.

00:20:38.340 Um, India set the precedent in India has banned actually 67 or so, uh, Chinese apps because

00:20:44.440 they understand what the Chinese government is up to. The American people are being misled by

00:20:50.880 representatives of the Chinese government. There's a lot of people on the CCP's payroll in

00:20:57.100 the United States. And there were various forces in the administration of Trump's administration

00:21:01.300 that pushed back pretty aggressively with the initial instinct, which was absolutely to ban this.

00:21:06.020 The national security agencies collectively all realized uniformly believe that Tik TOK

00:21:10.580 needed to be banned. Hmm. That's so scary. I mean, I'm trying to remember, I thought it was Trump

00:21:15.700 tried to make them sell to Warner or Oracle. I'm like a compromise solution. You know,

00:21:22.060 it was like, we're not going to ban them. We'll just like make them, you know, sort of sell,

00:21:25.160 but that, that can, that basically requires you to partition data, which may or may not be possible.

00:21:29.980 B, it's kind of a hot move by the government to sort of force the sale, especially the buyer.

00:21:36.660 Um, so that was, that was kind of like, unfortunately, somewhat for Brutus, you know,

00:21:40.140 kind of European, almost like a European policy. Um, so not really a fan of that.

00:21:45.200 What about Biden? Is he doing, is he doing anything to combat Tik TOK?

00:21:49.160 Well, obviously not. He's not doing anything to combat the CCP. He wants to lower terrorists,

00:21:52.840 which is the stupidest idea ever. He does. I mean, the administration is torn,

00:21:56.100 honestly, in the Biden world, there are people who understand the threat posed by the CCP in China.

00:22:01.900 And there's people who are the apologists for the last 40 years of history, which is basically

00:22:05.520 allowing China to get stronger and the United States to get weaker.

00:22:09.240 Hmm. Well, uh, I mean, it was interesting just today. They were doing a report on

00:22:13.940 how the Hollywood movie industry has seen a great bounce back this past month, you know,

00:22:18.540 thanks to Maverick, uh, and what's the other movie with grew, um, minions, minions,

00:22:25.780 hugely successful, not so much the, the Buzz Lightyear one that, that, um, has some woke

00:22:31.320 of vacation problems and also just maybe brand fatigue. But in any event, um, that's good news

00:22:37.040 because the Chinese had been sort of taking over as the audience for these movies. And one of the

00:22:42.300 things that Tom Cruise and the makers of Maverick did was refuse to take the knee, uh, in response

00:22:46.600 to Chinese demands about the flags represented on Maverick's jacket and so on. So it's good to see,

00:22:52.520 you know, Americans buying this product again and sort of reclaiming the market. And it would be

00:22:55.940 great to see tick tock lose market entirely, or at least in part. Um, but we don't seem to have a

00:23:01.800 sound policy with respect to the Chinese right now. And it does worry me as on the heels of 4th of

00:23:06.340 July, celebrating our country and its greatness and its unique place in the world 50 years from now,

00:23:11.480 will we have it? And the, in the one country you got to look at as a potential threat is China.

00:23:16.920 And what are we doing? What's our long-term plan? Does anybody talk about it? Does anybody in this

00:23:20.420 administration even think about it? No, they don't really don't. But after the midterms,

00:23:25.720 you'll see the Congress take leadership in investigating, um, ties in American businesses

00:23:30.120 to China, how we're funding basically advantages, military and other dual use technologies for China.

00:23:36.840 Possibly you'll see changes in legislation, which the president can try to veto,

00:23:40.260 but fundamentally, I think it's going to be very difficult for American businesses to do business

00:23:43.560 in China after the midterms. Hmm. Great. So, all right, let's talk about you a little bit more.

00:23:49.440 Cause you mentioned that you have a husband, you you're gay and you're conservative and you were

00:23:55.820 living in San Francisco, which is my, it must've been very confusing to you and very confusing.

00:24:02.300 You, you, you know, you sort of in, in other places in the world, you would have been in a

00:24:06.100 minority for different reasons out there. Did you have to closet your Republicanism,

00:24:11.320 your conservatism? For a long time. Yes. Um, over time with more and more, you know, sort of

00:24:20.460 success, I got more comfortable. Um, I built a platform like mostly on Twitter. And so I felt like

00:24:26.260 I would regret living at some point if I wasn't using my platform to proselytize for ideas that

00:24:31.920 I believed in. So I started to be more comfortable, like circulating ideas, not using my own. Usually

00:24:37.740 it's like recirculating other people's ideas, um, about how to make the world better. Um, it felt

00:24:42.320 like as I have now, like, you know, 300,000 followers on Twitter, that if I can make a difference,

00:24:46.700 you know, and change the views of 10 or 20 people, it's worth doing.

00:24:50.660 Mm-hmm. And so you knew Peter, Peter Thiel from PayPal, right?

00:24:55.880 I knew Peter from the first day of my freshman year of college, which I won't date myself.

00:25:00.080 It's a while ago. Okay. So he's also out and in both ways, right? And a conservative too. So

00:25:06.740 like, what did you guys, what was that like? Did you have sort of a camaraderie about this is this

00:25:11.880 town, these people tech, because they of course surprise themselves on being so open and accepting,

00:25:16.880 but I'm, I've experienced firsthand that the line is drawn at conservatism.

00:25:21.900 Well, Peter moved and escaped the Bay area many years before me, I think it was 2015 or so,

00:25:26.620 uh, when he basically said the Bay area is like totally screwed and dysfunctional, um,

00:25:32.000 and ideologically bankrupt. And so he moved. Um, I actually felt that at the time he moved that

00:25:38.240 professionally, it would not be smart and savvy for either him or me to move. Um, I felt like

00:25:44.100 there was too many network effects on technology and that the Bay area was still the focal point

00:25:47.860 that probably was true up to at least 2017. I think after 2017, it might not have been true and

00:25:54.720 it might've been safe, you know, to me for me to move professionally, but now there's nothing left

00:25:59.580 in the Bay area. That's interesting in technology. The interesting people have left the future of

00:26:03.840 the Bay area looks more like the future of Detroit. Hmm. Um, I've told this story before,

00:26:08.800 but I was at, uh, Sheryl Sandberg threw me a book party when I published my book in, uh, 2016. It was,

00:26:13.780 it was like, uh, November, October, what I can't remember, fall of 2016. And, um,

00:26:18.700 like every other person there pulled me aside to say, we can't stand Peter Thiel. We, we threw him

00:26:24.960 out of Silicon Valley. We completely banned him from all the parties, from all the invites.

00:26:28.900 And it was, it was very funny to me because, you know, half the room thought that I hated

00:26:32.740 conservatives and I hated Trump because I'd asked him a tough debate question and he came after me

00:26:36.500 for several months. But the other half watched my show reunite and realized, you know, I just like

00:26:40.920 throw punches at everybody, especially if you're running for office. And I had nothing against him.

00:26:45.040 And I definitely understood the world from a more center right perspective. So you'd get like half

00:26:49.920 the room being like, we hate Peter Thiel. We hate Donald Trump. And I get the other half of the room

00:26:53.380 being like, my God, it's hell living here. I'm the only conservative at the end of the party. I was

00:26:58.420 like, this is a confusing, confused place. Definitely a confused place. Um, as you know,

00:27:04.140 the world's seen out there's so much evidence about the dysfunction of the Bay area. It's like

00:27:07.800 impossible to defend. Um, but in 2015, 16, people were still in this kind of altered state,

00:27:13.560 you know, altered reality field. Um, that's okay. Peter, but it doesn't really like to attend

00:27:17.560 parties. So I'm sure he wasn't offended. I just like cries himself to sleep on his bed full of

00:27:23.000 money. Um, okay. We have much more to go over with Keith right over this quick break. Uh, so much

00:27:28.180 to get to. Don't miss a moment. Not that often you get to talk to a guy with this much success in

00:27:32.020 his personal and professional history. We'll continue it in two minutes.

00:27:40.520 So Keith, uh, you did leave California. It got bad enough. I mean, we've been covering the troubles

00:27:45.180 there a lot. Uh, we had, uh, your, your friends, uh, from all in on the podcast to talk about the

00:27:51.780 recall effort of Chesa Boudin, somebody I've been covering for a long time after I interviewed his

00:27:55.740 essentially adoptive father, Bill Ayers in what remains my very favorite interview I've ever done.

00:28:01.180 And that includes Vladimir Putin and you can go down the list. Okay. Um, so San Francisco did the

00:28:07.540 right thing and they got rid of this non-prosecutor Chesa Boudin. And, um, you did the right thing by

00:28:12.920 just getting out of a town that wasn't aligned with you and wasn't heading any place good.

00:28:16.560 And you ultimately came to think that was true professionally too. Cause you know,

00:28:19.880 those are two different things potentially. And so what do you make of your newfound state,

00:28:25.320 your current governor, Ron DeSantis, and the latest attack on Florida and DeSantis from your old

00:28:32.540 governor, Gavin Newsom, who clearly is trying to generate some buzz around himself for 2024

00:28:37.480 by saying California is the state of freedom and Florida is not.

00:28:42.040 You know, Florida is wonderful. Super happy to be in paradise in Miami every day. Um, couldn't be

00:28:46.880 more thrilled with the decision. Everybody we've moved here helped move professionally, socially

00:28:51.380 from California or New York to Miami is extremely happy. Almost every single person that I know

00:28:58.120 that's moved here has now purchased a home. Some of them started, uh, initially rented, but they've

00:29:02.480 all bought, which means there's happy, thrilled, you know, want to build a family here. Um, you know,

00:29:08.040 Gavin's pretty desperate, as you might know, 200,000 people, a net 200,000 people left California

00:29:12.940 for Florida last year. Uh, California has lost population for the first time since 1850s, losing

00:29:18.380 congressional seats for the first time ever in history. Running a TV commercial is not going to

00:29:22.800 help with that. It's a third world country running, being run by a third world dictator with third world

00:29:27.000 policies. You can't gloss over that on TV. Nobody's going to move from Florida to California. All they're

00:29:32.760 going to do is call up somebody they know professionally or socially and ask them what's it like to live in

00:29:36.540 California. And they're going to hear your tales of, you know, unabedded drug use, property, crime,

00:29:43.840 homelessness, impossibility of building commercial and residential real estate, defunding police,

00:29:50.120 like everything that's stupid, removing standardized tests, not teaching algebra,

00:29:54.260 every stupid policy of the world is being implemented in California.

00:29:57.980 Hmm. I know he's, he raises the issue of, you know, the, the alleged don't say gay bill down in

00:30:03.280 Florida. This is what his site is all up in arms about, which is a lie of a name. It says you can't

00:30:07.740 get into sexual identity or gender identity at a very young age in curriculum. That's what the bill

00:30:12.200 said. The law, the law says in curriculum, all this, like you cannot have the picture of your

00:30:16.620 same sex spouse on your desk is a lie. And anybody who's implementing the policy that way ought to be

00:30:21.440 held to account because it's not consistent with the words of the law, which say in curriculum,

00:30:25.980 you can't have that stuff. But meanwhile, California, we've done stories on how you can leave

00:30:30.140 California during the school day to go get cross-gender hormones on school time. And they

00:30:34.920 will not tell your parents. They don't think the parents, they think the parents' rights end at the

00:30:39.120 schoolhouse door. Abigail Schreier's done a great job of documenting this. If that's their idea of

00:30:43.300 freedom, they're going to lose a lot more votes than they're going to gain with this kind of campaign.

00:30:48.240 Well, they're going to lose a lot of votes because people want their schools to be open.

00:30:51.460 California shut down all the schools, so nobody learned anything. Kids sacrificed two years of their

00:30:55.300 educational future, and that compounds. Unlike in other states, Miami, for example, people were

00:31:01.200 back in school very fast. Kids learned they're not falling behind. Sweden, they never shut down

00:31:06.760 the classes, and the kids in Sweden haven't shown any decay due to COVID. So California basically

00:31:13.980 sentenced the whole generation of Californians to a life of misery, really, because if you fall two

00:31:20.140 years behind in education, you're never going to catch up. And parents are just furious. And so you saw

00:31:24.800 this in Virginia. The Virginia elections were all about people revolting against the powers of the

00:31:29.540 teacher union and conspiring with politicians to shut down schools. And so Gavin is the most guilty

00:31:35.640 person on the planet enabling this. Yeah. I mean, he was mayor of San Francisco. That's the town that

00:31:40.880 not only recalled Chesa Boudin, but recalled three of their school board members for this nonsense,

00:31:46.420 for worrying about renaming the Abraham Lincoln School instead of opening the damn classroom so

00:31:51.860 our children could learn. But meanwhile, I know you do like DeSantis. You are, as we discussed,

00:31:57.060 a conservative. So what do you make of the, we believe, coming battle between Donald Trump and Ron

00:32:05.080 DeSantis for the next GOP nomination? Well, as you know, I'm not a big fan of Donald Trump. I was, I think,

00:32:12.760 the original funder for the Never Trump sort of campaign. So, you know, I grew up in New Jersey,

00:32:17.900 New York in the 80s. And Trump was this very, you know, talk show host, sort of. And so I kind of

00:32:23.660 knew he was kind of sociopathic and, you know, very unreliable. And it was pretty obvious, like,

00:32:29.280 the personality traits, they don't, they don't change, like, after, you know, 50, 60 years,

00:32:33.520 or in his case, 70. And so, you know, when the South president wasn't, was completely predictable.

00:32:38.180 In fact, I had this tweet on July 4th, I believe, 2016. So before he was elected,

00:32:44.500 that he was going to get impeached by the House of Representatives. It was so obvious that that was

00:32:48.980 going to happen. I actually thought, you know, it was like, you know, most of the stuff that

00:32:52.480 happened was completely inevitable. But even you couldn't have foreseen two impeachments. I mean,

00:32:56.880 that was a lot. Yeah, I only got one. Sorry. You know, but in any event, so I've never been a fan of

00:33:02.300 his. I do think he actually had some policies that were quite good, like moving the embassy in Israel

00:33:06.920 was actually a wonderful policy. You know, I believe strongly in a lot of his Supreme Court

00:33:12.140 and judicial nominees. So I think there's a lot of things he did well. I think actually,

00:33:15.560 unfortunately, he lowered corporate tax rates, which is probably a mistake at the expense of

00:33:19.440 lowering individual tax rates. So I think that was a disaster, politically and subsequently.

00:33:25.300 So, you know, I think there's things that could be improved. I think Santos is a great politician.

00:33:29.600 He's 43 years old, which I think America needs a younger politician, period, because it's not a party.

00:33:33.680 I just have too many old people running the country in technology. I'm getting old and towards the end

00:33:39.960 of my career. And I would be extremely young by the standards of politics. I have a classmate

00:33:45.160 from law school who's in the US Senate. And he mentioned, you know, as I say, I'm getting old

00:33:49.660 in technology. He's in the bottom 20 percent in terms of age, you know, in the US Senate. But that's

00:33:54.460 absurd. We need people who have fresh leadership, fresh ideas, you know, more in tune with where the

00:33:58.720 future is going. And so someone in their 40s would be much more exciting, I think, on either for either

00:34:04.120 party to nominate. Hmm. Do you think what do you think? I mean, I realize none of us knows. But

00:34:08.540 what do you think? Do you think Biden will just declare that he's a one term president or get a

00:34:12.820 primary challenger? I know that I mean, obviously, but Newsom is Newsom is thinking about in launching

00:34:18.580 this preemptive ad. He almost surely will get a primary challenger with his current approval rates.

00:34:23.000 I mean, if you think about what drives through history, what drives a challenger to an incumbent

00:34:28.540 president is really about approval rates or the equivalent. And so, you know, this is why Jimmy

00:34:33.780 Carter got challenged by Ted Kennedy, etc. This is almost inevitable. He stays at 36, 37, 38 percent

00:34:39.400 approval. If he gets washed out in the midterms, that will just accelerate the pressure.

00:34:44.120 Mm hmm. And yeah, yesterday, Monmouth had him for for Monmouth. This is a record low at 36 percent

00:34:48.940 approval. A vast majority of Americans do not want him to run again.

00:34:53.000 Many feel it is because he is too old. I mean, he will be as David Axelrod said,

00:34:58.120 obviously not a fan of any incoming potential Republican, said he'll be closer to 90 than he

00:35:03.220 will to 80 at the end of a second potential term. And that's just like, let's just be honest. No one

00:35:08.780 near 90 should be president of the United States. It's absurd. Not it's not just it's real.

00:35:14.000 My parents are exactly the same age as Biden, I believe. And, you know, I wouldn't want them to run

00:35:18.880 for president. It's just not age is not your friend at a certain point. You saw a decay. You

00:35:25.300 can even tell the decay with Reagan, who's a lot younger than Biden, actually. But towards the second

00:35:30.100 term, there was definitely and partly it's not his fault. He got shot. Obviously has issues on your

00:35:37.280 body. And, you know, he just do prematurely. But fundamentally, I think you need people with

00:35:43.080 vigor, intellectually, stamina, et cetera, to dispatch maybe the most difficult job in the world.

00:35:50.180 Yeah. Yeah. Sixty four percent, according to I think it was Harvard Harris polls,

00:35:53.980 think that Biden is too old to run for president again. And, you know, there's signs of that every

00:35:59.180 day. Whether you want to see them is up to you.

00:36:01.360 If Democrats hold the Senate, he might be able to run again. If the Democrats get crushed in the

00:36:06.200 House, which they will and lose the Senate, I think there'll be a lot of pressure in the primary

00:36:11.760 against him. They could lose the Senate. I mean, people think on the left that Dobbs, the decision

00:36:17.320 that overruled that reversed Roe and Casey is going to be their, you know, sort of secret hat trick

00:36:24.060 that's going to help them, you know, pull off some amazing victory come the midterms and maybe even

00:36:29.380 2024. It's not. I mean, even now in the latest poll that we saw, it said, let's see, it was a

00:36:36.080 was it a Fox News? No, it was a mammoth poll that showed 33 percent by far say inflation is their

00:36:42.060 biggest concern. We're not surprised to see that. The second on the list was gas prices. So it's,

00:36:46.540 you know, kind of a sister at 15 percent. Nine percent say the economy is the biggest issue facing

00:36:51.920 their family. Only five percent said abortion. Normally, that's around one percent. So there's a bit of

00:36:56.540 an uptick, you know, within days of Dobbs. But you're telling me those numbers are going to be

00:37:01.260 significant come November. I doubt it. The five percent includes abortion on both sides, actually,

00:37:07.360 truthfully. So, you know, the five percent isn't just pro-choice people. So I think you're probably

00:37:13.180 talking like two or three percent. But more importantly, if you look at the polls about the

00:37:17.620 abortion topic, roughly 80 percent of Americans believe that abortion on demand is a bad idea.

00:37:22.420 And that's basically what Roe is kind of creating a regime of. And now we're going to have a regime

00:37:27.420 that looks more like Western Europe. Yeah, exactly. And abortion is not going away in America. I mean,

00:37:32.660 they really like you see the headlines. There was one yesterday or the day before about like 10 year

00:37:35.940 old girl can't get abortion in her state, you know, after being raped or the subject of incest.

00:37:41.620 And that's that's horrifying. Everything about that story is horrifying. But it's a lie that this

00:37:46.480 girl cannot get an abortion. Abortion is legal in dozens and dozens of states in the union. It is not

00:37:52.300 outlawed in all the states. In fact, so far, it's only about 13 and counting. It'll go up

00:37:55.920 according to the state's plans within the first 30 days after Dobbs to maybe potentially 22

00:38:01.560 could be as many as half. But it's that's that's as high as it's going to get, at least for the

00:38:07.160 foreseeable future. And abortion is not illegal in America. And it is accessible. It may not be as

00:38:11.100 easy, but it's accessible to that girl. It'll be relatively easy up to up to the first 15 weeks.

00:38:16.600 I just think that there's I saw a poll this morning with reasonably good methodology that

00:38:20.740 roughly 80 percent of Americans believe that abortions should be curtailed at 15 weeks, which

00:38:26.260 is probably where the American people are going to step. Yeah, I mean, it's still like, look, if you're

00:38:31.560 at all pro pro-life and you look at what does a 15 year old baby look like in my uterus in my uterus,

00:38:37.480 you'd be you'd be horrified. 15 week baby. You'd be horrified because they're extremely functional

00:38:42.720 and very lifelike. And it's not just a even arguably a clump of cells, but it is the European

00:38:48.940 way. It's what Florida went with, you know, just sort of as a it's a more purple state than someplace

00:38:53.740 like Mississippi. In any event, let me switch gears because we mentioned gas prices and that's on the

00:38:57.940 minds of so many Americans right now coming off of the July 4th holiday. Everybody drives. You see it

00:39:01.860 at the pump. You feel it. It's painful. And Joe Biden seems to think that this is the this is the fault

00:39:06.920 of the the gas station owners. He came out with a tweet saying basically lower your lower your

00:39:14.600 prices consistent with your costs and tried to shame them. And in an not unprecedented but unusual

00:39:20.960 move, Jeff Bezos, who has been behind the president, came out and basically suggested this is either

00:39:26.160 willful, misleading or ignorance. The gas station owners are like Ma and Paz who get, you know,

00:39:34.020 a license to use the brand Sunoco, hang out a number, have to keep their number at what everybody

00:39:39.440 else on that same corner has it at and really make their money on the sodas and the gum and the candy

00:39:45.160 we buy and we go inside of the little kiosk and not they don't have some huge margin that they're

00:39:50.960 exploiting, you know, at our expense. So what did you make of the president's prescription

00:39:55.460 and Jeff Bezos taking a shot at him?

00:39:58.380 Is this obviously is correct. I mean, anybody who's ever taken the first three pages of Econ

00:40:04.000 One knows that that's correct. You know, maybe we should regulate the soda costs and the, you know,

00:40:08.800 donut costs and stuff because that's driving 70% of health care costs in the United States.

00:40:12.800 It'd be better actually if Biden tweeted about that than, you know, the fragmented industry of

00:40:18.660 gasoline stations, which is super fragmented. But like literally, it's impossible to take Econ

00:40:23.940 One and get through like the first midterm and believe anything associated with the president's

00:40:28.640 tweet.

00:40:30.580 I mean, to me, there's an added insult to it because it's like, all right, you always want to be

00:40:35.980 punching up, right? Like once you punch up, if you want to take somebody on, maybe the oil companies

00:40:40.220 or the Saudis, but let's not take Ma and Pa on the street corner trying to, you know, keep their heads

00:40:46.580 above water with this market and make them the villains.

00:40:50.660 Yeah. Well, he's tried, he's tried punching at anybody. Like none of them are working.

00:40:55.240 He ran out of targets. You know, like basically blaming it in his own, his own fault. We were

00:41:01.400 an energy independent country under Donald Trump, literally energy independent. And we had less

00:41:07.800 than $2 prices of gasoline. So when you're energy independent, it actually doesn't even matter

00:41:12.680 what the Saudis do and what the, you know, what the Russians do. But because of the stupid policies

00:41:19.320 of shutting down certain things that were producing oil, we now are derivative from the rest of the

00:41:25.200 world's pricing. And that, that is going to affect the American people. It's like, this is like Jimmy

00:41:31.040 Carter all over again. Every single policy is like replicating every dumb policy that Jimmy Carter

00:41:35.440 had and trying it again, moving it works better.

00:41:38.560 Where do you think we're going? Cause there were headlines this morning about, are we headed for

00:41:42.460 layoffs? And I thought to myself, layoffs. I mean, the big headline is people can't get employees,

00:41:47.560 right? They did the great resignation and then they decided their couch was really comfy and the

00:41:52.040 government checks kept coming. And they just decided I'm in my happy place. I'm good. And

00:41:56.700 all these small business owners I know are like at their wits ends thing. I can't, I can't find good

00:42:00.560 people to work for me. So I see a headline of our layoffs coming, but I know like the JP Morgans of

00:42:05.220 the world, they laid people off. Some of the bigger corporations are laying people off. We are headed for

00:42:09.820 a recession. That seems obvious. So what do you make on, on financial prescription? And for people out

00:42:14.620 there worried about my, my housing value is going to crash and I could lose my job, even though we

00:42:20.860 have 3.4% unemployment or whatever it is, what do you, what do you think is going to happen?

00:42:24.760 I think it's a kind of a tell to cities. Uh, the large companies are typically bloated and there's

00:42:29.620 more attention to their cashflow, their ability to mint money at the end of the day. And so there are

00:42:34.320 going to be layoffs and there's going to be higher increases at a minimum, which basically means

00:42:37.960 it's harder to get a job in the first place. On the other hand, small businesses and those

00:42:44.500 serving, you know, retail are struggling to find employees, um, constantly and they have to,

00:42:50.720 they're raising the cost, the rate wages, which in some ways is a good thing, but it also means

00:42:55.700 you're going to have more inflation because baked into that cost of that product and service is

00:42:59.440 actually the cost of the employees. So inflation is going to go up. It's going to eat away everybody's

00:43:03.700 paycheck and becomes a kind of vicious cycle. So all the data is sort of true. You're going to

00:43:09.360 read these big announcements from large Fortune 500 companies about suppressing hiring. And then

00:43:14.300 you're going to see interviews in the media with small business owners saying, I can't fill,

00:43:19.580 I can't open, you know, because I don't have enough people on my ships. So those can be both true at the

00:43:24.700 same time. Yeah. And of course, like the, the low man on the totem pole feels it acutely. Um,

00:43:32.180 all right. In the time we have left, I, I, there's something I really want to ask you

00:43:34.880 because I have three children. Uh, I have an intern sitting here with me. Who's

00:43:39.020 more conservative leaning, who came from a very liberal school and had very limited options when

00:43:43.540 she looked at her college options, you know, like she didn't really want to pay all this money,

00:43:48.160 her and her family, she and her family for a liberal indoctrination, but she's brilliant.

00:43:52.920 And, um, I think about it too. And I wonder how a kid from New Jersey could go to the two

00:43:56.940 institutions you did and be, and call yourself conservative. Like, were you conservative then?

00:44:01.920 Weren't they able to beat it out of you and it didn't happen late in life? What, how did it

00:44:07.720 happen? They tried pretty, yeah. To give them credit, they tried pretty hard. Um, but you know,

00:44:12.520 what actually happened was my parents were liberal, traditional liberal Democrats growing up and I

00:44:17.020 was surrounded by, you know, these like kind of anti-Nixon, anti-war, anti-Nixon public interest

00:44:22.500 types, you know, growing up. And when Reagan got elected in 1980, against the wishes of my parents and

00:44:30.260 all their friends, and then suddenly the world got better, it sort of exposed the lie and the myth

00:44:35.380 behind all their views to me. It was like, oh my God, these people have been wrong about everything.

00:44:39.640 And then, so suddenly it gets just snapped and then I got more and more comfortable with

00:44:43.300 conservative views and just watching them being implemented. And then I was old enough to start

00:44:46.860 reading on my own, develop my own sort of philosophy, um, and then apply that and brought

00:44:51.700 that with me. It did get tested at both Stanford and Harvard without a doubt. Um, I had to do more

00:44:57.180 work probably on my own initiative, which actually probably turned into having better skills and

00:45:01.840 better ability to read and write, um, and to find data and research because I didn't want to sacrifice

00:45:07.260 my beliefs, but the, the, the base reading material wasn't quite as, uh, neutral or so I had to do more

00:45:14.400 work to be able to craft my arguments and, you know, achieve the grades I wanted to.

00:45:18.520 Hmm. And so I did have, to be fair, I had a few professors that if you just looked at their bios or

00:45:25.280 read the public in the public domain about them, you would think they were very biased,

00:45:28.280 but in fact, they were actually quite, um, rigorous and disciplined. Um, so a lot of,

00:45:33.860 I had actually did have a lot of wonderful professors at both Stanford and Harvard,

00:45:38.040 despite the atmosphere being really bad. Hmm. It's funny. Cause I, at the time I was raised a

00:45:43.780 Democrat, you know, my parents were Democrats, but though they were not political, you know,

00:45:46.760 they weren't like pushing Democrat ideas. They just voted Democrat because they said,

00:45:49.880 we're not rich and that the Republicans are for the rich. And, uh, so I remember getting exposed

00:45:55.080 to these ideas and being like, okay, I'll take, I'll take this, I'll take that. But law school

00:45:58.260 was very, I mean, like, I think back to my con law and that now I look at the way, you know,

00:46:02.960 that you look at the Alito opinion in, in Dobbs and I can just tell you exactly what my con law

00:46:06.880 professor would have been saying about all he would have, he would have been horrified by what

00:46:10.420 Alito wrote, by what Dobbs wrote, you know, the indoctrination sometimes seeps in there if you're not

00:46:15.000 on guard. I had a better, I would say I had a better experience. I had like Kathleen Sullivan

00:46:19.540 and Larry tribe and in Austin, Charles Freed as con law professors. And all of them would admit

00:46:26.280 that Roe v. Wade was intellectually bankrupt. They liked the result two to three, like the result

00:46:30.300 or really even the third liked the result, but they, they absolutely understood the intellectual

00:46:35.380 weakness of the, of the argument behind the opinion. You can even read, you know, professor tribes,

00:46:41.440 old treatises actually have this explicitly stated. He was cited in Dobbs.

00:46:46.760 Yep. So all of, all this stuff is, you know, they were very, um, upfront, um, in exposing the

00:46:53.760 weakness and why like it actually was a, you know, a really good place to get education. Um, I give

00:46:59.060 them all credit for having, you know, an open mind in terms of how they were teaching a class,

00:47:03.180 the outside of the class, you know, disagree with probably all their views, um, you know, most things,

00:47:07.700 but, uh, fundamentally the reason why my brain is still pretty sharp with con law is because

00:47:11.960 they trained it pretty well. Oh, that's amazing. And, and good to hear there is hope. Uh, listen,

00:47:17.520 Keith, thank you so much. Please come back. What a pleasure talking to you. Keith Ravoy.

00:47:20.940 Pleasure to be with you. I'll come back anytime. Awesome. All right. Coming up in just a bit,

00:47:25.080 John Cass is back with us. Have you read his latest piece on what happened in Highland park and the,

00:47:30.500 on the mayor and this country and our culture? Well, you're going to hear him deliver it essentially live.

00:47:37.700 Don't miss the one and only and the unmissable John Cass.

00:47:44.340 I read a column this morning. John Cass is such a beautiful writer. He's such a beautiful writer.

00:47:49.680 He has a way of saying the things and writing the things that you know you're feeling, but you

00:47:53.760 haven't been able to articulate them. And today's piece was about the Highland park shooting.

00:47:58.840 It was incredible. He wrote exactly, exactly what I've been feeling with so many of us have been.

00:48:03.360 And, uh, we had to have him on today to talk about it. Uh, just by way of background,

00:48:07.960 John was a syndicated columnist for the Chicago Tribune for 38 years. Then they tried to basically

00:48:14.120 make his life a living hell there because they went woke and he wanted to be honest about what

00:48:18.200 Chicago was going through. And now he is an independent journalist and posts his columns

00:48:22.940 on his website. John Cass spelled K a S S news.com. John Cass news.com. And even after you listen to him

00:48:31.680 today, you should go there and read this piece. You won't be sorry, John. So good to have you here.

00:48:36.460 You are so kind. Hello. I'm not, I'm just honest. I'm just absolutely honest, especially about you.

00:48:42.400 Um, and so are you and this piece, God, like they're all good, John, but every once in a while

00:48:48.980 you get one. That's just like, you know, if there were an honest committee that hands out the awards,

00:48:52.980 you'd be getting tons of them for these pieces. And this is what you said about Highland park.

00:48:57.960 What happened yesterday was right on. Let me, let me tell people the first line, uh, immediately

00:49:04.720 the mass shooting at the independence day parade at Highland park was weaponized for its political

00:49:10.100 value. Even before the grief stricken families of the victims could begin to process their loss a

00:49:17.060 hundred percent. It is disgusting. How quickly we go to that place. Is it not? Yeah, it is, uh,

00:49:24.680 disgusting. And, uh, at times like that, social media becomes a sewer full of barking dogs.

00:49:33.820 And, uh, everyone brought their agenda and they were trying to twist it for political weaponized

00:49:41.620 the suffering of the dead and turn it into their weapons, uh, to beat up their enemies.

00:49:48.180 And the suspect's family is saying, Oh, we didn't know anything about this. How could this happen? We had

00:49:53.660 no idea until it turns out that this young man, uh, had exhibited warning signs, dangerous,

00:50:03.820 and violent, uh, depictions of, on video. And it was, it's all just a mess and it's all horrible.

00:50:11.060 And meanwhile, um, we're all focused on Highland park as we should be because of the news value and

00:50:19.480 the tragedy. And at the same time, just a few miles to the South in Chicago, people are being slaughtered

00:50:26.500 every day and no, no, uh, no big fanfare there. Mass shootings every day, 60 shot in Chicago over the

00:50:37.300 weekend, police officers ambushed, uh, 10, at least 10 dead. Well, that's like, you know,

00:50:44.820 that reminded me when you saw 60 shot, 10 dead in Chicago over the weekend. Do you remember when

00:50:50.580 joy read came out and objected to all the news coverage of the war in Ukraine saying the only

00:50:56.940 reason we're doing that is because it involves white people. And it was like, okay, so I haven't

00:51:03.280 gone back and looked at joy reads programs because I need to keep my food inside of the stomach, um,

00:51:09.460 over the past couple of couple of nights, but I guarantee you, she's not talking about the murder

00:51:14.860 rate in Chicago. Right. I bet, I bet she covered this, the mass shooting at Highland park. And she

00:51:20.240 didn't mention the shooting deaths in Chicago. Now, why is that? Because she hates black people.

00:51:25.340 She doesn't care about black people. She's given up on the, on the crime stats there. She's interested

00:51:30.820 in mass shooters, but she's not interested in doing anything about the Chicago crime rate.

00:51:37.100 If you talk about Chicago crime rate, you have to talk about the victims who mostly are overwhelmingly

00:51:43.140 black and brown people, poor people being shot down, but also the alleged, uh, criminals who are charged

00:51:54.380 with these crimes are mostly black and brown as well. And no one wants to talk about it because

00:52:01.020 that whole, you know, lefty nonsense and intersectionality. And they'd much rather talk about

00:52:08.820 what the, uh, toxic white male, like, like this kid that, uh, was fed this stuff all his life until

00:52:20.100 he finally cracked. Well, that's what I want to talk to you about. Like that, that's where you go

00:52:24.640 in this column. That's so worth worthwhile. All of it is, but this, you're talking about our culture

00:52:30.400 and, and how America is losing faith. And I'm just going to read part of it and I'll let you take it

00:52:35.760 from there. You write, I thought I could hear the devil laughing. Are there any serious doubts that

00:52:42.180 as a culture, we've turned our faces from God. We infantilize our young people. We demand the right

00:52:48.960 to kill the innocent unborn. We raise our young in a culture of death. There are elementary school

00:52:54.300 teachers who are regularly depicted on social media as being excited about exploring sexual themes and

00:53:00.100 gender identity with young children. And you go from there about our, our lack of connection with God,

00:53:06.520 with each other, the pushing of bizarre and damaging social quote values without parental consent on our

00:53:14.500 young children and the void of what matters in their lives.

00:53:19.120 And we tell these young men every day at school and the media through popular culture, we tell them

00:53:29.380 every day that they are toxically masculine. Uh, the, all the, the sins of the world are on their

00:53:36.680 shoulders. And when that translates into a personal interaction between teachers, classmates, so forth,

00:53:46.100 what do you think we're creating? We're surprised that we've created monsters. This whole thing is, um,

00:53:55.100 it's just damning and, uh, sad.

00:54:00.520 Mm-hmm. I wondered about that. You know, I went to church on Sunday, so it's July 3rd,

00:54:06.700 and I was delighted to see it was jam-packed. I was delighted. I know it's not the case for a lot of

00:54:14.120 churches across America. And then John, it turned out that this shooter, this shooter was also at his

00:54:20.600 church, told it was non-denominal, non-denominational, though I know the mother, I think the mother is a

00:54:26.440 Mormon. Um, not, not to blame any of this on, on his faith, but it's, it's crazy to me that he

00:54:33.020 actually was in church the day before he did this, the day before he did this. How can that be?

00:54:40.740 Um, I think this, uh, young man is lost in the, uh, what, what was clear was, uh, the police

00:54:49.400 reportedly, okay. I haven't seen the documents myself, but reportedly the police in Highland Park

00:54:56.200 say that they've had interactions with this young man. No, they've known him. And that apparently,

00:55:04.660 reportedly, he threatened to kill all the members of his family with knives. So they showed up and

00:55:12.180 confiscated the knives. I'm told the family did not, um, press charges. And what did the father

00:55:20.780 reportedly do according to what I've read and heard? The father then helped his son get a FOID card,

00:55:29.600 I mean, FOI card, firearm owner identification card that he's co-signed with, with the kid.

00:55:37.580 If that's true, well, I, I contrast it with what happened in Washington a few years ago. There was a

00:55:46.180 young man, uh, adopted by his grandmother. He was in difficult circumstances and, uh, he began,

00:55:56.380 his name was Joshua Alexander O'Connor, and he threatened a mass shooting in Everett, Washington.

00:56:03.640 And I wrote about it today. Today, his grandmother read his journal. She, she realized he was a danger.

00:56:12.180 She had to take, she took responsibility. She didn't pretend. I don't know. She actually called

00:56:20.460 the police, got this done. And this kid was, uh, charged. And this, that's what should have happened.

00:56:28.440 I don't, I don't want thought crimes charged, but my God, to give this kid a firearm owner

00:56:37.100 identification card, if that's true. Uh, that's, uh, well, it got me thinking maybe,

00:56:45.260 maybe we're putting, maybe we're too reluctant to take a hard look at the families who produce these

00:56:53.060 mass shooters. You know, if, if you, if, if your son is a sociopath, that's one thing you can't

00:56:58.740 therapize him out of it. But if your son is somebody who was, you know, a well child in terms of,

00:57:05.780 you know, his brain chemistry and got bullied or just didn't fit in and became reclusive and became

00:57:13.460 obsessed with online sites like 4chan or whatever it is. And you, in this case, understood he was

00:57:22.420 suicidal as recently as 2019. And then you assist him in getting a firearm. And the uncle who I guess

00:57:30.000 reportedly may have lived with them, he's coming out. Yeah. He lives in the house. Um, he comes out

00:57:36.420 and says, there were no signs that would make him bullshit. Be a better uncle, be a better parent.

00:57:43.760 Our society depends on you. Our free society can only do so much. And yes, we can do more,

00:57:50.520 but there, there are limits to our powers, but you're in the home with him. Pay attention.

00:57:58.100 They've lawyered up, uh, Megan. The family is lawyered up now. Typical. Um, yes, pay attention. I

00:58:05.980 think, isn't that important? And didn't we once have a feature in our culture in this country? Um,

00:58:14.240 I know as a Greek American, a child of immigrants, uh, shame was the overriding cudgel, you know,

00:58:23.040 when I grew up, like what, what will they say in the village about you? You know? And, uh, that was,

00:58:31.080 and shame was a real thing. And not only for Greeks, for everybody in this country, like what will the

00:58:37.420 neighbors say? Right. Was the popular expression. I think we've forgotten that, you know, that,

00:58:43.480 that shame can inspire people to behave better. Um, and judgment is required.

00:58:53.540 And maybe about the, um, sorry, go ahead, John, you, you finish being able to stand,

00:58:59.840 find a place to stand and say, this is the place I'm standing and I'm not moving.

00:59:05.120 Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to sexual, sexualize my kindergarten because so that you can apply,

00:59:13.480 nod her at, uh, on Tik TOK or whatever they do. That's because that's for them. That's what's so

00:59:20.600 awful about it. Those teachers, they're doing that for them. They want the children to make

00:59:25.780 them feel accepted or good about their own life choices. And that's not the children's job.

00:59:32.120 The children have no job of making the teacher feel good. It's the other way around.

00:59:36.360 I think about this now. Um, I, I've talked about how I was very bad, badly bullied in seventh grade.

00:59:42.820 I had a bad incident in third grade too. And can I tell you what happened both times? I actually

00:59:46.460 never told this first story before in the third grade, after I had a bullying incident, it was

00:59:51.160 just a bad negative experience at a party where they sort of turned on me and they were, they were

00:59:54.980 flicking, they were flicking me, all the girls like flicking, you know, with like your finger.

00:59:58.880 And they were saying the word flick. And I was the only girl they turned. It was terrible. It was,

01:00:04.080 you know, of course I was in tears. And, um, I kind of got a little sullen at the time. And,

01:00:09.140 and when I went back to school and I'm in class and you know what happened, her name was Ms. Randall.

01:00:14.260 Ms. Randall called my mom and said, is it okay if I take her out to lunch? Well, you want to make a

01:00:22.160 third grade girl feel super special? Have the teacher offer. And we, I don't remember what we

01:00:29.900 talked about. I don't think it had anything to do with the girls at school. It was just,

01:00:33.080 she made me feel special. Like she really liked me and she cared about me and I mattered.

01:00:39.420 And then years later, years later, my professor, my teacher, Mr. Julian, after my dad died,

01:00:46.240 when I was a sophomore in high school, um, reached out and actually took me to go. My mom said that I

01:00:53.220 could get a car. She couldn't get me anywhere. You know, she was a single mom at this point with

01:00:56.400 three kids. And, uh, she said I could get a car. She gave me like a thousand bucks. I got to use

01:01:01.280 Subaru. I, I didn't know how to get a car. My mom didn't know how to get a car. My mom's a nurse at

01:01:05.700 the VA. Mr. Julian took me and he helped me pick out the car and he helped teach me how to drive a

01:01:11.900 stick shift. And we got the car and he helped me negotiate the, the four new tires. That's the

01:01:17.460 only thing we negotiated on it, which by the way, then I ruined because I had a car accident shortly

01:01:21.740 there. The one thing I did was ruin the four tires, but that's fine. But my point is just,

01:01:26.920 I had people in my life. I was lucky. Uh, and it wasn't just my family. It was also teachers who

01:01:31.520 cared about me. They weren't looking for me to care about them. This young man in Highland,

01:01:37.640 you know, I'm so glad you told that story because teachers often save us. I was saved by

01:01:43.960 Ms. Donna Bayo, five, four foot 11, wearing a high heels and a high, you know, beehive haircut to,

01:01:52.660 to make her look taller. And she saved my life. But, uh, this young man that in Highland Park,

01:02:00.280 uh, the, the mayor of Highland Park was his cub scout master, right? Yeah. This kid has been known

01:02:10.900 for quite some time. And, uh, and, and all the kids like this, when we throw them into this sewer

01:02:18.760 of social media and subject them to attacks, you get attacked. I get attacked, but we're

01:02:24.760 grownups, you know, I don't care. You want to attack me? Fine. Just click on my site. That's

01:02:30.240 good. Thank you. Thank you very much for your support. But, uh, other, the kids who get attacked,

01:02:37.340 they, they wither and they get angry and all this is bad, bad news.

01:02:43.980 And then the media, the media piles on by making stars out of these losers. I'm sorry,

01:02:51.020 but these kids like they're, they're, they're sullen. They're by themselves. And yes, they do

01:02:56.540 need our help. Don't get me wrong. They need our help. But I, I can't look at a kid who shoots up a

01:03:01.100 Highland Park 4th of July parade and say anything nice about him at this point. And Gavin DeBecker,

01:03:06.480 I mean, the security expert of the world, there's not a more qualified security, uh, expert in,

01:03:12.800 in the world, not just America. He's the advised presidents and Supreme court justices, members of

01:03:16.620 Congress, every celebrity you could possibly name a list, biggest stars in the world.

01:03:20.000 He was on my show last week and I asked him about what the media does with mass shooters,

01:03:26.100 you know, the glorification of them, that they don't even think about putting the picture on,

01:03:31.040 on repeat, uh, and running it over and over and over again. And I wanted to play in part

01:03:35.440 what he said, John, here's, here's Gavin DeBecker. The lionization almost of these guys

01:03:42.160 is playing a factor in the repeat nature of these crimes. Is it not?

01:03:45.900 Oh, very much. And I, it's not done in every country, uh, there, you know, in England,

01:03:51.340 you can't name the perpetrator until after a trial. And, uh, there are various reasons that's

01:03:56.600 the case, but the, the upshot of it is that you don't have what you have in America. I'll give you

01:04:01.300 a good example of, uh, when president Reagan was shot by John Hinckley. Um, from that point on,

01:04:07.600 we saw Hinckley's boyhood home interview with neighbors. We obviously saw his name,

01:04:12.740 all of his pictures through high school. We saw him being escorted by federal agents to a waiting

01:04:17.380 helicopter. And the whole experience is almost an equalizing of the target, which is the president

01:04:24.360 and the assassin who is the shooter. And the, and I strongly oppose all forms of, uh, of, um,

01:04:32.200 lionization or, uh, creating a star out of an assassin. And yet it's gone on forever.

01:04:38.260 Turning that person into an enormous star, um, is damaging because it encourages others.

01:04:45.220 And we always saw, and we tracked it in my company that within a few weeks of a mass shooting,

01:04:51.440 you would have another, well, now they're weekly anyway. So that issue is resolved itself. But the

01:04:56.620 point being that you are encouraging others and you are saying among the large menu of choices that a

01:05:03.080 young people can choose in their lives of who to be, what to be. Now there's a new character.

01:05:09.820 Hmm. That was, I think, Thursday of last week. And yet another one happened on Monday.

01:05:16.760 What a great interview. And what a great point. The, uh, the fellow Joshua Alexander O'Connor,

01:05:23.500 the young man that I told you was turned in by his grandmother in Washington state. Here's what he

01:05:30.660 said in his journal. I need to get the biggest fatality number I possibly can. He wrote, I need

01:05:37.920 to make this count. I've been reviewing mass shootings, bombings, attempted bombings, and I've

01:05:44.920 learned, I'm learning from past shooter bombers mistakes. So I don't make the same mistakes.

01:05:53.500 Hmm. Thank God for his grandmother. I mean, we need more grandmothers and parents like that. I mean,

01:06:01.320 I'm thinking of the grandfather in the Uvalde mass shooting at that hospital, at that school where the

01:06:07.880 grandfather was on tape saying, Oh, you know, he wouldn't go back to finish his senior year. What

01:06:12.960 can you do? You know, kids today. No, no, you can't say that you're his caregiver. You can make them.

01:06:19.700 You can, you have an obligation to make them and it's not okay to just shrug your shoulders and say

01:06:25.240 he's sitting in the room, right? It's like, it's your obligation to society to raise someone who has

01:06:31.220 at least the possibility of thriving and you don't get to shrug your shoulders and make him our problem

01:06:38.240 and make him the problem of little fourth graders who are just trying to learn. So I I'm not saying

01:06:44.800 there's that much we can do legally. There is a case where they're coming, they're going after the

01:06:48.520 parents of one mass shooter, one school shooter. Um, it would take a lot, but I do think societal

01:06:53.920 pressure like that, that shame you talked about that can be turned on the, on the family members

01:06:58.760 as well. It's not, it's not just the shooter who, who turns a kid into a shooter.

01:07:05.280 The Sandy hook, uh, shooter, his mom was interviewed and some, I remember reading and his mom was

01:07:13.960 interviewed and the bartender, no, the mom wasn't interviewed, but the bartender was interviewed

01:07:19.000 about him. And he said, she's a great mom. I'd see her every day. Um, she was a great mom. And I'm

01:07:26.280 thinking the mom's in the bar every day, hanging out with you. What's wrong with that picture?

01:07:33.640 Yeah. I'm sorry. You got a kid. No. And he was completely sullen and obsessed with video games

01:07:39.520 and in the basement all day in a house that had guns. I'm not anti gun, but you've got a kid like

01:07:44.620 that. Get your game, get your damn guns out of your house. Sorry. You can't have them anymore.

01:07:50.800 It's not a law. It's not the government seizing them. It's you as a response, as a responsible

01:07:55.300 parent saying, I need to remove these from anywhere near my disturbed child.

01:08:00.980 Everybody should be thinking that that's what parenting is all about. You know, you don't let

01:08:08.460 a two-year-old lick, uh, uh, extension cord or a wall socket. Do you? Yeah. If you have a child

01:08:15.940 who's disturbed, get the guns out of the house now. That's exactly right. I mean, I know parents

01:08:22.300 in New York who have sullen teenagers who would choose not to live in a high rise building. You know,

01:08:28.420 they don't want to like, they, they understand there's a temptation there. Poor Anderson Cooper's

01:08:32.880 older brother died like that. And he just threw himself over a balcony one day when Anderson was

01:08:37.840 very young, I think 16. And, um, and so like, I'm not saying it's just like as a parent, your job

01:08:45.600 is to foresee what possible pitfalls are, what possible dangers are, and try to plan against them

01:08:52.760 for your child's wellbeing, your family's wellbeing, and for society's wellbeing.

01:08:57.680 And, um, it's not to say that parents could prevent all of these. I know, um, the mother

01:09:01.560 of one of the Columbine shooters wrote a heart-wrenching book about how, you know, what she saw and didn't

01:09:07.300 see in her kid. It's not always preventable and always obvious, but I mean, Gavin DeBecker would

01:09:12.560 tell you that the misery, the misery, these shooters are driven by is, it is always there.

01:09:20.180 If only we would keep our eyes open, we might do a better job of seeing it.

01:09:24.780 It might be good to have God in our lives, Megan, like you went to church and, uh, saw that it was

01:09:32.280 crowded and maybe not mock people who believe in the Lord. Maybe not mock people, Muslim people who

01:09:42.360 believe in what they believe and Jews who believe what they believe. And maybe we understand that people

01:09:49.780 of faith, uh, are trying to do good. And maybe we can learn something from that.

01:09:54.880 You know, true, John, it's like you go to church, even if you're, even if you've got questions,

01:10:01.840 you know, you stand together, you sit together, you kneel together, you say peace in the Catholic

01:10:07.820 ceremony together. You wait in line for communion together. You you're together as a community. You

01:10:13.300 feel like you're part of something like you matter. You matter to them. They matter to you.

01:10:17.140 Ecclesia, that's a gathering, right? A gathering. Yeah. That's what it is.

01:10:22.260 That's right. And it's all part of the fabric of society. I mean, I don't know anything about this

01:10:28.720 mother. Again, I understand what I read is that she, she was potentially a faithful person, but I

01:10:34.780 don't know. Um, but she was reportedly arrested and charged with domestic battery back in 2015.

01:10:40.580 Don't have any other details. This woman works as a holistic health practitioner.

01:10:45.220 I'm not about judging other people's faith, but I will tell you, um, you want to know someone,

01:10:51.100 you know, you can hang out with someone all you want and not know them. You know, when you know

01:10:56.240 them, when you see them with their family, when you see them with their kids, then you know,

01:11:02.380 or begin to know them. And, uh, I'm not questioning anyone's faith or, uh, lack of faith, whether it's

01:11:12.780 an issue or not. But I, I think, um, we're judged by our children and, and those of us who still

01:11:22.480 feel shame and feel the concept of shame. Um, maybe that will, maybe that helps our culture.

01:11:32.880 Yeah. So what, what is shame, but the flip side of, you know, it's falling down on morality

01:11:37.200 on your values, right? It's well worth everyone's read. As I said, they won't be sorry. As always,

01:11:43.040 it's an enrichment spending time with John Cass. And, uh, so was our time today. Thank you so much

01:11:48.520 for joining us. Thank you, Megan. Love you. And thank you. You're the greatest. Isn't he amazing

01:11:54.200 guys? Aren't you so glad we have access to a mind like John's tomorrow? Sammy, the bull Gravano will

01:12:00.960 be here. This is the guy. He was John Gotti's number two, and then turned on him. Um, he admits

01:12:07.880 to participating in or committing the murder of 19 people. So you might say, why do you want to talk

01:12:14.700 to him? Well, his experience was absolutely fascinating inside the mob. And I think the

01:12:20.320 mafia is something that a lot of people remain very fascinated by. So how is it the Sammy, the bull

01:12:25.380 is still walking around? How is it that he's not, you know, that he's available, believe it or not,

01:12:30.500 the guy's got a podcast now. And I think it's going to be a fascinating interview. Uh, I'll never forget

01:12:35.620 Diane Sawyer interviewing him years ago. It was riveting. And he's, he's got a lot of insights about the

01:12:43.320 mafia and that lifestyle and the ethical compromises that everyone, not just the Sammy, the bulls of

01:12:50.240 the world has to make if they're going to go that route. So we'll talk about all of it. Uh,

01:12:55.060 that's our next episode. Don't miss it. Download the show in the meantime, subscribe at youtube.com

01:12:59.180 slash Megan Kelly. And thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS,

01:13:06.260 no agenda and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - July 06, 2022

Free Speech Suppression, and a Culture Leading to Mass Shootings, with Keith Rabois and John Kass ｜ Ep. 351

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