The Megyn Kelly Show - April 25, 2024


Free Speech vs. Harassment, and the State of ＂Cancel Culture,＂ with Katie Herzog and Jesse Singal ｜ Ep. 775


Episode Stats


Length

44 minutes

Words per minute

185.38484

Word count

8,288

Sentence count

633

Harmful content

Misogyny

18

sentences flagged

Hate speech

36

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In the wake of anti-Israel protests on college campuses across the country, President Joe Biden seemed to have his own "good people on both sides" moment when discussing the recent protests. Katie Herzog and Jesse Singel join me to discuss it all and much more.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.460 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.
00:00:11.920 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Campus chaos continues with
00:00:17.500 anti-Israel encampments in support of, quote, Palestine and more absurdity. We're just getting
00:00:23.060 started. Now we learn another ivy is next. National Review obtained documents that say
00:00:29.200 Princeton students are preparing their own encampment in the days ahead with the goal of
00:00:34.900 having their university divest and disassociate from Israel too. That's not really the goal. The
00:00:40.720 goal is to feel important like you matter, like you have something important to contribute. Sweet
00:00:46.280 little cupcake chanting for the death of the Jews. Meantime, President Biden, who condemned Trump for
00:00:52.320 his both sides-ism after Charlottesville, seemed to have his own good people on both sides moment this
00:00:57.820 week when discussing the recent protests. Joining me now to discuss it all and much,
00:01:02.980 much more, two journalists and cultural commentators, Katie Herzog and Jesse Singel.
00:01:07.360 They are hosts of the podcast Blocked and Reported. Welcome back, Katie and Jesse.
00:01:14.600 Thanks for having us.
00:01:15.180 Thank you for having us. Yeah.
00:01:16.580 Yeah, the pleasure's mine. All right, let's start with Joe Biden and his both sides moment.
00:01:21.160 It's amazing how the media kind of moved right past this, but here's what he said the other day.
00:01:25.080 Uh, this was Monday about whether he condemns what's happening with response in response to Israel.
00:01:34.240 Do you condemn the anti-Semitic protests on college campuses?
00:01:38.380 I condemn the anti-Semitic protests. That's why I've set up a program to deal with that.
00:01:43.500 I also condemn those who don't understand what's going on with the Palestinians.
00:01:47.620 Huh? What? What? What program has he set up to deal with the anti-Semitic?
00:01:56.540 What program? I'm not sure what he's even referring to, and I'm not sure, Jesse, he knows either.
00:02:02.440 Yeah, it seemed like sort of an off the cuff comment that I don't know. That one didn't bother me that much.
00:02:06.980 I mean, I think he's trying to carve a middle path with a lot of people yelling at him from different directions with the election coming up.
00:02:13.940 I guess if you interpret it as there's anti-Semitic incidents on college campuses, which there are, but he's also, I interpret it, Katie might disagree, as I'm trying to signal some sympathy for Palestinians stuck in Gaza.
00:02:28.100 Yeah, but I mean, Trump got no such benefit of the doubt when he was trying to say, with his so-called both sidesism in Charlottesville, he was talking about the people who were out there mad about the tearing down of statues.
00:02:39.820 And he had made that clear, but the media refused. They refused. They wanted to make him in support of the tiki torch white supremacists.
00:02:47.800 Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any doubt that the media treats Biden and Trump differently.
00:02:53.320 I think that's been well-established, but I also don't think it's really particularly fair to compare what was happening at Charlottesville to this current conflict.
00:03:01.940 I mean, there is shades of anti-Semitism in both of them. For sure, I can see the parallels. 0.92
00:03:08.140 But I think Jesse's right. Biden is trying to thread this very complex position, which is that there are concerns about anti-Semitism on these protests,
00:03:21.960 but these protests are also legitimate. They are protesting the slaughter of civilians in Gaza, and he's trying to not alienate anybody.
00:03:32.800 It is a difficult position to be in. I do not envy him.
00:03:36.380 I mean, when you say the slaughter of civilians, that's just so without context. Israel's military-to-civilian death rate is one-to-one.
00:03:44.060 Ours in Afghanistan, ours in Iraq was well above that. It was, I think, four-to-ones. I've heard it as much as ten-to-one.
00:03:49.900 So I don't think slaughter is the right term. That suggests indiscriminate murdering of civilians, which is not what's happening.
00:03:56.080 I don't think that we should take America's actions in Iraq or Afghanistan as the gold standard.
00:04:03.240 It's a complicated—it is complicated, for sure. But, you know, I mean, there are children being slaughtered in Israel.
00:04:09.820 There's no question about that. And did Hamas start this? Yes, they absolutely did. 0.87
00:04:14.280 But it still remains the fact that there are women and children being slaughtered and starving every day in Gaza.
00:04:20.060 I think, yeah, I've had a lot of—I've had a lot of trouble, like, figuring out where I stand with this as a Jew.
00:04:26.900 I was so disturbed in the immediate wake of October 7th by the utter lack of any sort of empathy.
00:04:34.040 Like, the inability to take one day just to say murder is bad, kidnapping is bad.
00:04:38.920 There were celebrations.
00:04:40.640 Yeah, it was despicable. And I think there's a subset of these protesters who clearly feel that way.
00:04:44.960 I also—but I just think, like, as a Jew, that needs to be leavened with empathy for what it would be like to be stuck in Gaza right now.
00:04:52.380 And I genuinely don't know what the answer is.
00:04:55.140 Well, maybe if they release the hostages, it would get a lot better for them.
00:04:57.820 Yeah, but they—but they is not some family starving in Gaza.
00:05:01.160 You know, they—I don't think Gazans want— 1.00
00:05:03.500 Who elected Hamas? 0.80
00:05:04.460 Who elected Hamas? 0.80
00:05:05.300 Well, hardly anyone currently alive in Gaza, which is a very young place, elected Hamas.
00:05:10.220 And Hamas's election came— 0.62
00:05:12.080 Jesse, the Palestinians are pro-Hamas. 1.00
00:05:15.140 They elected Hamas. 0.87
00:05:16.240 They've been—they chose these people to lead them, whose charter is the destruction of Israel. 0.92
00:05:21.400 They've been supporting the terror attacks on Israel for a long, long time.
00:05:24.980 They've been pushing propaganda on their own children.
00:05:26.980 We've seen the U.N. films of them talking about how they'll celebrate killing Jews.
00:05:31.620 We heard them calling back home some of these Hamas warriors on the day of 10-7 to mom and dad, like,
00:05:37.580 Yay, I killed 10 Jews! 1.00
00:05:38.700 And the parents, instead of being like, What?
00:05:40.380 Oh, my God.
00:05:41.260 Yay, good for you.
00:05:42.260 We're so proud.
00:05:43.480 I mean, let's not pretend that it's just a group of very peaceful, loving people who somehow got pulled into conflict with Israel.
00:05:49.720 There was a good article by Graham Wood, who actually saw some of the early footage of that.
00:05:53.940 He talked about, you know, these murderers or kidnappers calling back home, and their parents were actually worried for them.
00:05:59.560 And, like, why are you doing that?
00:06:01.400 I think there's a—Palestinian people, there's a mix of them.
00:06:05.380 There's obviously some awful violent ones.
00:06:07.140 But I just—I don't think there's anything that really justifies—I'll put it this way.
00:06:11.320 If you're going to do military operations that kill a lot of women and children, I hope at the end of it, there's a good outcome that will lead to lasting security for everyone.
00:06:19.840 And I'm just worried things aren't headed that way.
00:06:22.580 Well, I mean, look, it's not that I have no empathy for the dying children in Gaza.
00:06:26.720 It's that I blame Hamas for all of them. 1.00
00:06:29.820 All of them.
00:06:30.340 You can still—
00:06:30.800 Not Israel. 0.99
00:06:32.000 You can blame Hamas and understand that this started on October 7th, that they are to blame, while also feeling— 0.52
00:06:38.320 The true victims of this, besides the Israeli people who were slaughtered, are the people of Gaza. 0.94
00:06:44.660 They are suffering under Hamas.
00:06:46.100 They are suffering under this current assault.
00:06:50.300 And, frankly, I don't think students protesting at Columbia or Yale or Princeton are doing anything to alleviate their suffering.
00:06:56.900 In fact, I think they're probably distracting from their suffering because now we're talking about—
00:07:00.500 Nor do they actually care about their suffering.
00:07:02.240 I don't think they actually care about Palestine at all.
00:07:04.020 I think they do.
00:07:04.880 I think they're just—
00:07:05.540 Do they care about oppressed Muslims, really?
00:07:07.140 I don't remember any of these protests happening after, you know, the satellite video came out of the suffering Uyghurs in China. 1.00
00:07:13.760 Not one.
00:07:14.560 Not one student protest.
00:07:16.000 Not a camp.
00:07:16.920 Not a tent.
00:07:18.080 Nothing.
00:07:19.020 I do think there's something of a double standard where anything Israel does is much more important than anything other countries does.
00:07:29.100 And I've noticed that.
00:07:30.700 But, like, being a pervert for nuance, as we call ourselves on this show, it's also—you can understand Israel is a close ally.
00:07:36.880 We give them a lot of aid.
00:07:38.080 I just—the whole situation is really heartbreaking.
00:07:40.460 And I think these kids are deluded.
00:07:42.700 So at Columbia, Katie and I were debating on our podcast whether Columbia did the right thing, arresting some of them.
00:07:48.760 Part of the problem is apparently the administration went to them to negotiate, and the kids said no.
00:07:53.740 Until the entire University of Columbia, this billion-dollar institution, divests entirely from Israel, we are staying put. 0.99
00:08:00.440 So I'm not sure what choice that leaves the administrators because it's obviously not the case that a major institution is just going to divest from an entire country like Israel.
00:08:09.120 It's delusional.
00:08:10.600 Well, the other problem with arresting them is that they have turned these—they have now turned these students into heroes and martyrs.
00:08:17.200 They inflamed this protest.
00:08:18.800 Yes, and from—I'm speculating here, but from the outside, I wonder if maybe the president of Columbia is thinking about what happened to Claudine Gay at Harvard and Liz McGill at Penn and thinking, I don't want to lose my job over this.
00:08:32.480 I'm not going to let allegations of anti-Semitism derail my career.
00:08:37.080 So she responds with force.
00:08:39.000 They arrest 100 students.
00:08:40.900 And then now those students are heroes and that has just inflamed this entire thing, and now it's spreading to other campuses.
00:08:46.560 On the upside, however, if they keep this on campuses, maybe they will not block the Brooklyn Bridge.
00:08:52.000 There are some upsides to this.
00:08:53.880 She's—this university president is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't because she actually did call in the cops to try to make some arrests and clear the campus and let, you know, order restore so that children—children and kids—could go to college per the contract that has been struck between their families and the college. 1.00
00:09:11.360 And what's happening now is university senate leaders today are meeting with her, and she might get censured for calling the cops.
00:09:19.760 They're—they're having an emergency meeting.
00:09:23.160 They're hoping it will help calm faculty members, many of whom remain furious over the decision to call in the cops, who made more than 100 arrests last Thursday.
00:09:34.240 And, yeah, she's looking at a possible censure allegation for doing that.
00:09:38.820 Of course, the university senate is made up—I was on the university senate when I was at my college in Syracuse.
00:09:43.060 It's made up of faculty, students, as well as alumni and administrators.
00:09:47.960 So she's going to get in trouble for trying to do something, the same as you point out, she would have gotten in trouble had she done nothing. 0.98
00:09:54.840 Yeah, she's either in trouble with the faculty and students or she's in trouble with Congress. 0.99
00:09:58.940 She's screwed either way.
00:10:00.860 Yeah.
00:10:01.280 Don't—don't be the president of Columbia, really.
00:10:03.420 I mean, it was obvious.
00:10:04.360 We'll do our best.
00:10:05.180 We were—we were going to take over that role, but now we're not going to.
00:10:07.920 We declined.
00:10:09.000 I feel like there are still universities where you can go for sanity.
00:10:11.780 You know, I realize, like, a bunch of people at our school now are applying to and hoping to get into, like, University of Florida.
00:10:18.340 They see this as just a sane place where you can go and you can get a classical education and you don't have to be a leftist.
00:10:24.000 You don't have to be suffering from woke indoctrination everywhere.
00:10:27.860 And they know that protests like this would be cleaned up very quickly because—order.
00:10:33.260 And it's not just, like, protests.
00:10:35.040 Okay.
00:10:35.800 We just had Heather on. 1.00
00:10:36.680 She was not tolerant of protests.
00:10:38.780 She really doesn't want to see these snot-nosed kids out there telling us they're no-nothing thoughts.
00:10:43.080 But it is an American tradition, especially on college campuses.
00:10:47.000 I don't mind protests.
00:10:47.940 But the camps, the anti-Semitic slogans, screaming, threatening things at Jews, forming these human chains that then follow the Jews and don't let the Jews cross over into their territory, that's a hard no.
00:11:03.400 That's got to stop.
00:11:04.900 And I would absolutely send law enforcement in to arrest and remove anybody doing that on a campus I ran.
00:11:11.460 No?
00:11:11.800 Am I wrong?
00:11:12.180 No, you're right.
00:11:13.860 I mean, I think everything is so hysterical online that you're supposed to have one rigid opinion.
00:11:18.600 Either you're for the protesters or against the protesters.
00:11:21.340 I think the right answer is, like, yeah, protesting is an American tradition.
00:11:24.900 It's a college tradition.
00:11:25.980 You should probably operate with a soft hand.
00:11:28.400 But as soon as protesters are blocking people's access to places, let alone these anti-Zionist human chain, which was bizarre footage, I don't know.
00:11:39.880 I think if you're going to be a protester and do that, you should accept the possibility that you're going to be arrested.
00:11:44.860 That's sort of the deal, right?
00:11:46.800 You protest, you break the law, and you agree you might get arrested.
00:11:50.840 I'm not sure what the point is otherwise.
00:11:52.940 Yeah, I mean—
00:11:53.600 Right, like, imagine if they did this in front of Starbucks, Katie.
00:11:56.100 You know, the cops would be down there so fast, removing them.
00:11:58.480 Why does it make it okay just because they're doing it to Jews on the quad?
00:12:03.240 Right.
00:12:03.580 Well, I mean, Columbia is a private school.
00:12:05.440 They aren't bound by the First Amendment.
00:12:07.280 But I think they should follow First Amendment guidelines, which a lot of us have been advocating for years now.
00:12:13.640 So, you know, violence is not protected.
00:12:16.480 Incitement is not protected.
00:12:18.400 True threats are not protected.
00:12:20.180 Discriminatory harassment is not protected.
00:12:21.920 So when you surround a group of Jewish students and chant, go back to Poland, you should be treated as if you had surrounded a group of Black students and chanted, go back to Africa. 0.73
00:12:33.180 But that's what's so—I didn't mean to talk over you.
00:12:35.860 But part of what's complicated about this is there's also these videos from Broadway outside Colombia, which is, like, any protest like this is going to attract every lunatic in a 50-mile radius.
00:12:46.160 And I do think some of the anti-Semitic stuff—I'm not justifying it—genuinely comes from non-students.
00:12:52.460 And Colombia has no jurisdiction over non-students.
00:12:54.980 Sorry, Katie.
00:12:55.240 Some of this does look very, to borrow a term, like astroturfy.
00:12:59.080 I mean, a lot of it does look like outside agitators funding it.
00:13:02.200 I'm like, weird.
00:13:03.340 Why are all the tents the same color, the same kind of tent?
00:13:06.160 Oh, I have the answer to that.
00:13:07.920 I was talking to a friend about it.
00:13:08.800 What is the answer?
00:13:09.180 Do you know the name Fergie Chambers?
00:13:11.660 Oh, no.
00:13:12.960 No.
00:13:13.440 Who's Fergie? 0.94
00:13:14.420 Fergie?
00:13:14.920 Fergie Chambers is a legendary—he's an heir to a major fortune.
00:13:19.660 The Cox family.
00:13:20.880 The Cox family.
00:13:21.880 He moved to New Hampshire to not have to pay taxes, as good lefties do.
00:13:26.900 He's a real commie.
00:13:27.800 I don't throw that term around lightly.
00:13:29.740 Wait, wait.
00:13:30.080 Let me pause you there, Jesse.
00:13:31.340 We're continuing this so everybody can find out who the hell Fergie is and why he's funding the tents.
00:13:37.600 I'm so glad we got to bring this up.
00:13:39.120 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM.
00:13:43.640 It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal, and cultural figures today.
00:13:51.860 You can catch The Megan Kelly Show on Triumph, a SiriusXM channel featuring lots of hosts you may know and probably love.
00:13:59.200 Great people like Dr. Laura, Glenn Beck, Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey, and yours truly, Megan Kelly.
00:14:05.680 You can stream The Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM at home or anywhere you are.
00:14:10.620 No car required.
00:14:12.300 I do it all the time.
00:14:13.360 I love the SiriusXM app.
00:14:15.920 It has ad-free music coverage of every major sport, comedy, talk, podcast, and more.
00:14:21.640 Subscribe now.
00:14:22.340 Get your first three months for free.
00:14:23.720 Go to SiriusXM.com slash MKShow to subscribe and get three months free.
00:14:30.400 That's SiriusXM.com slash MKShow and get three months free.
00:14:36.440 Offer details apply.
00:14:37.540 Continue your story.
00:14:43.320 We were talking about Berkey.
00:14:44.420 Who is this guy?
00:14:45.280 Yes.
00:14:46.000 Berkey Chambers is the heir and heir to the Cox fortune and a far left violent revolutionary.
00:14:52.820 That's how he describes his own ideology.
00:14:54.740 Like all good far left violent revolutionaries, he sought lower taxes in the state of New Hampshire.
00:15:02.520 He had this, what would you call it, Katie?
00:15:04.680 It was like a militia camp sort of in Massachusetts first.
00:15:06.980 Yeah, like a summer camp for revolutionaries.
00:15:09.580 Like an artist residency slash revolutionary militia camp.
00:15:14.980 Yes.
00:15:15.200 So everything I'm saying.
00:15:16.420 This is cool too.
00:15:17.280 Fine.
00:15:17.600 Yes.
00:15:18.500 Very similar, I'm sure.
00:15:20.800 Everything I'm saying is speculative.
00:15:22.320 I got a call from a friend of mine who's very interested in Massachusetts politics where Berkey sort of made a name for himself by being crazy.
00:15:29.560 Everyone has been wondering where are these kids getting funding?
00:15:33.360 Where are all these same tents coming from?
00:15:35.120 And Fergie Chambers himself, I dropped it in our chat, tweeted, as a philanthropist and outdoor, this was April 20th.
00:15:41.520 As a philanthropist and outdoor enthusiast, I have recently been glad to support U.S. college students seeking to learn about camping who don't have access to supplies.
00:15:50.860 If students at more schools would like to explore this wholesome hobby, please feel free to DM me for support.
00:15:56.960 So it sounds like, oh, he fled to Tunisia.
00:15:59.640 That's the other part.
00:16:00.360 He converted to Islam.
00:16:01.880 I forgot.
00:16:03.040 After October 7th, he converted to Islam and fled to Tunisia, as you do. 0.98
00:16:08.500 He inherited $250 million.
00:16:10.600 The free press, Susie Weiss did a great story.
00:16:13.080 Went up to New Hampshire and hung out with Fergie Chambers for a weekend or something.
00:16:17.240 It was a great story.
00:16:18.140 That's a lot of tents.
00:16:19.520 $250 million.
00:16:20.240 Fergie is an interesting character.
00:16:21.580 My team is just texting me this.
00:16:23.420 Fergie Chambers to Mother Jones in March of 2024.
00:16:27.220 He called Russian President Vladimir Putin one of the better statesmen of our century and described Hamas' October 7th attack as, quote, a moment of hope and inspiration for tens of millions of people.
00:16:38.140 Okay, so we're getting to know Fergie a little bit.
00:16:40.360 And I love that he's really trying to encourage people's love of the outdoors.
00:16:43.380 I mean, that's wholesome and pure.
00:16:45.180 I like the idea that Columbia students can't afford their own tents.
00:16:49.700 They're like the homeless people on the streets in Seattle.
00:16:52.220 They need support.
00:16:53.360 I mean, it's also funny.
00:16:54.480 My friend pointed this out to me, but we don't know about his legal situation, or I don't.
00:16:58.560 He apparently left to Tunisia because he's a little bit worried about his legal situation.
00:17:03.320 If Columbia students are accepting money from a guy based in Tunisia, when they try to work for Goldman Sachs in a couple of years, this could really be problematic for them.
00:17:11.880 They need to divest from Fergie.
00:17:13.880 They need to focus on that problem first.
00:17:17.340 More here.
00:17:17.940 While he denies a recent claim in L.A. magazine that he chants death to America every day, that's an interesting thing to confront him with, he allows that the idea itself is more or less true. 0.98
00:17:30.420 Quote, I think the most important thing for the prosperity of humanity is the destruction of the United States.
00:17:36.560 So that's our guy.
00:17:38.920 I guess we understand now tent cities a little bit better.
00:17:41.580 Thank you for doing that deep dive, Jesse.
00:17:42.960 I need to be clear.
00:17:43.840 This is unconfirmed.
00:17:45.140 This is based on my anonymous friend in Massachusetts.
00:17:48.180 So I'm doing top quality journalism here.
00:17:49.900 But there is a tweet.
00:17:50.700 I'm looking at a live tweet where he appears to be taking credit for funding the tents.
00:17:54.660 Plus, we want it.
00:17:55.580 I feel we want it to be true.
00:17:57.340 I feel that we've confirmed it.
00:17:58.800 I feel the interview with the L.A. magazine is is confirmation enough.
00:18:01.860 But, yeah, I mean, you're right.
00:18:03.360 I mean, that's the irony we were talking about with Heather McDonald, about these kids out there who are paying $85,000 a year at Yale or close to it at Columbia, trying to whine about oppression. 0.72
00:18:12.420 And while they get their Starbucks and their sushi and their salsa and do their interpretive dance and get their tent funded by somebody else.
00:18:18.920 I'm really worried.
00:18:19.540 Like, you know, when I started off on Fox as an anchor, it was 20 2007, 2007.
00:18:25.680 Then when I went solo as an anchor, it was 2010.
00:18:28.660 And that was when I first started to lead discussions on things like this.
00:18:32.260 And I remember back then, so that's 14 years ago, saying, what's going to happen when these these narcissistic, know nothing kids graduate college?
00:18:41.860 And that back then we called them politically correct.
00:18:44.660 Now they're woke and go out into the world.
00:18:47.860 And more and more we're seeing, well, they're going to get jobs at the universities and in corporate America and they're going to change the fundamental fabric of the nation.
00:18:54.380 They they are they're winning in pocket after pocket of American industry.
00:18:58.900 And there's a whole slew of offspring coming up right behind them.
00:19:03.800 Now, I will say, as the mother of three children and who gets exposed to a lot of kids who are younger.
00:19:08.220 Right. I think it's going to end soon.
00:19:10.920 I think they've lost the tail end of Gen Z and Gen Alpha.
00:19:15.520 I really believe that.
00:19:17.020 But that doesn't mean we're not going to have to deal with these kids for a good long while here in America.
00:19:22.140 How do you guys see it?
00:19:23.040 I mean, people, I think, naturally become more conservative as they get older.
00:19:29.460 You know, our parents generation, my my parents were hippies.
00:19:32.900 My my mom went to Woodstock and, you know, she's still liberal, but she grew up to be a taxpaying nonrevolutionary. 0.99
00:19:40.080 I think the most people will follow that path.
00:19:42.420 I mean, there it is clear, however, that these these these ideologies don't just stay on campus.
00:19:49.360 Jesse and I have talked a lot about this on our show.
00:19:51.720 So they do enter the workplace.
00:19:53.200 They do enter government and they do get get sort of they become a part of the fabric of certain places.
00:20:00.940 But I think this all these things follow a cycle.
00:20:03.140 They're they're trendy and they won't be trendy always.
00:20:06.340 So I think that this is interesting.
00:20:08.280 I don't think it is an existential threat.
00:20:10.340 And in terms of these particular protests, I recommend people read Saurabh Amari and Michael Powell on these protests.
00:20:17.220 Both of them actually went to Colombia.
00:20:19.300 And these are two people who I don't think would be a particularly sympathetic to to the protesters.
00:20:25.280 And they said, basically, you know, this is sort of cringe.
00:20:28.300 It's a lot of land acknowledgments.
00:20:29.980 And it has sort of the ethos of an of an H.R. department meeting of a of an anti-racism training.
00:20:36.280 You know, it's the safe space of student protests.
00:20:40.720 There is anti-Semitism and bullying, and that's very concerning and they should all disavow it.
00:20:46.380 But they are exercising their right to free speech.
00:20:49.640 And if they don't cross and not all of them are crossing these lines.
00:20:53.080 And as as people as three people who have spent the last few years talking about our support of free speech,
00:20:58.720 I think we need to to to to support these protesters if they are not if they are not crossing certain lines.
00:21:05.000 I mean, this is I think some people want to make this into sort of a a chop chas 2.0, that autonomous zone in Seattle.
00:21:12.560 And it just from the outside, it isn't that two two teenagers were killed at chop chas.
00:21:17.780 There were multiple rapes there. 1.00
00:21:19.640 That was a lawless encampment.
00:21:22.140 And this is contained on an Ivy League campus with gates.
00:21:26.600 So I find this more, frankly, amusing than I do.
00:21:30.800 Scary threatening.
00:21:31.860 I disagree with you.
00:21:33.040 I had sympathy for the podcast, the podcasters, the protesters, until you said they did land acknowledgments.
00:21:38.900 So I think they should be arrested immediately.
00:21:41.920 No, the one point I want to make on the broader thing.
00:21:43.780 We've discussed this on our podcast.
00:21:45.400 I think Katie and I are in agreement that the peak of the craziness, whatever is going on now, is a moment of some craziness.
00:21:52.640 But this thing it's springtime.
00:21:55.560 Right. Exactly.
00:21:56.160 You've got to get outside.
00:21:56.960 Got to get on the lawn.
00:21:57.500 But also, like, just a few years ago, one idiot's tweet storm could, like, end a celebrated author's career.
00:22:05.960 Like, publishers were terrified.
00:22:07.620 Media outlets were terrified.
00:22:09.880 We've, like, passed the peak of a lot of that.
00:22:12.760 It doesn't surprise me that some universities or small literary magazines are still dealing with that.
00:22:17.920 But I think mostly the adults in the room have realized, like, for lack of a better cliche, you can't negotiate with terrorists.
00:22:23.180 And you can't just be constantly firing and canceling people.
00:22:26.700 So I think a lot of things have improved, to be honest, as weird as it might be to say that today.
00:22:31.720 I just feel like we can't be so—we're defensive when it comes to the issue of free speech for good reason.
00:22:38.780 We've had our speech clipped and criticized and shut down—criticized is fine—but shut down and censored over and over and over for the past several years.
00:22:47.120 People who are more heterodox, as I know you guys are on certain issues and have faced so-called cancellation.
00:22:53.040 But we can't be so defensive of the right and the willingness and the principles behind free speech that we don't draw the line when someone actually has crossed it.
00:23:04.720 But I also would allow the protesters, if I were running Colombia, I would allow them to go out and protest, to hold placards, to say, you know, the Intifada, to say from the river to the sea.
00:23:18.480 It's not great, but I think half of them don't even know what it means.
00:23:22.960 And I don't think I would interpret it from everybody.
00:23:23.500 Right, it depends what river you're talking about, the Mississippi or—
00:23:26.540 They don't know.
00:23:27.520 They don't know.
00:23:28.140 I don't think they have any idea.
00:23:29.320 It's like the girl we played a soundbite.
00:23:30.640 She's like, I don't know what NYU has done.
00:23:32.420 I don't know.
00:23:32.600 I'm not sure why I'm here.
00:23:33.660 I wish I were better educated, okay?
00:23:35.860 So, but, you know, standing in front of a group of Jews saying this is where the weapon should hit, like saying right here, like you're the next target of Hamas weapons, these Jews right behind me. 0.72
00:23:49.420 The human chains blocking Jews from getting on campus or going to class.
00:23:53.300 What we saw elsewhere with them, the Jews having to lock themselves in a library and others banging on the door. 0.71
00:23:59.520 Those, you're done.
00:24:01.060 You're out.
00:24:01.480 I'm sorry.
00:24:02.420 You're suspended.
00:24:03.780 You might be expelled, depending on how bad it is.
00:24:05.920 Like Vanderbilt, those guys who menaced a cop, you're expelled.
00:24:09.120 Goodbye.
00:24:09.740 We don't need to talk anymore.
00:24:11.400 And I—so I really think it's really not that hard.
00:24:14.180 Why are we pretending it's all or nothing?
00:24:15.700 Like, they can protest, keep order.
00:24:18.880 Direct harassment of Jews based on their religion is a hard no under the law.
00:24:23.500 So I just, like, I don't know.
00:24:25.600 You guys are about nuance.
00:24:26.860 Do you see it?
00:24:27.500 I do.
00:24:29.280 I mean, like, so you just had Heather MacDonald on. 0.98
00:24:32.240 And for years, people are trying to get her in trouble for saying controversial things.
00:24:36.200 And I think for the sake of protecting everyone, you need to allow some pretty awful speech.
00:24:40.960 So that's why I would set the bar high at a public university for what constitutes, like, harassment, harassment.
00:24:46.680 Like, the kind of harassment you get punished for.
00:24:48.940 And I—frankly, I would—I'm sorry.
00:24:50.400 Like, I would put it higher—I think I'm agreeing with you on this.
00:24:52.620 But, like, the intifada idiocy, I don't—I think you need to allow it.
00:24:57.840 If you're individually harassing a Jewish student or preventing them or any student, frankly, from getting somewhere, yeah, you can't physically prevent someone from moving around the campus.
00:25:06.960 But I think, generally speaking, we need to take a liberal stance on this and let people just scream themselves out, honestly.
00:25:12.940 Yeah, I'm with Jesse on this.
00:25:14.500 I mean, it really depends on where each individual draws the line.
00:25:18.960 And the three of us would possibly get in trouble for saying other things, maybe things on—for disagreeing with some activist talking points on trans issues or things like that.
00:25:29.360 And so I think to protect everybody, we really need to be as liberal as possible when it comes to this.
00:25:34.760 I take my guidance from FIRE, the foundation for, what is it, individual rights and expression now, and they're clear about this.
00:25:42.620 Violence is a—violence crosses the line.
00:25:45.460 Discriminatory harassment crosses the line.
00:25:47.400 And, of course, the way you interpret that is—it depends on the individual case.
00:25:52.160 But I think Jesse's right.
00:25:53.680 The point of protecting free speech, it includes protecting odious speech.
00:25:58.320 And I think we have seen a lot of hypocrisy in the sort of broader—you know, I don't like the term, but the heterodox sphere.
00:26:05.340 We have seen a lot of hypocrisy of people who have, for years, spent the last few years crowing about people getting canceled or fired for their speech, now demanding that other people get fired or canceled for their speech.
00:26:17.800 And personally, I find it very—
00:26:19.320 I want to take that on.
00:26:20.060 I don't think anybody who's out there, you know, protesting or whatever, just pro-Palestine should get fired for being pro-Palestine.
00:26:26.900 However, the people who, after 10-7, came out and celebrated the terrorist murder of infants and children, I want them canceled all day long.
00:26:38.520 I want to know their names.
00:26:39.520 You can say whatever you want.
00:26:40.460 Great.
00:26:40.780 Say it.
00:26:41.380 Tearing down hostage posters of innocents so they can't be helped and the problem can't be discussed.
00:26:47.800 I want their names out there, and I want them banned.
00:26:52.940 I'm perfectly happy, and I don't see any hypocrisy in that position and my stance against cancel culture, which is not about eliminating all consequences for terrible people.
00:27:05.620 Yeah, but there's even here, again, not to be the pervert for nuance, but you need to unpack a few things.
00:27:12.500 If someone says a pro-10-7 thing on a public university campus, they have a constitutional legal right to do so.
00:27:20.300 They don't have a right—
00:27:21.060 Yeah, you can say it.
00:27:21.640 To not—yeah, to not experience consequences.
00:27:24.020 And I do think this idea that you can say whatever you want publicly and be recorded saying it, and it's not going to lead to professional consequences, like, maybe people just shouldn't express constantly opinions on every hot-button subject in public.
00:27:41.520 You don't have to, but if you choose to do that, there's no constitutional amendment saying you won't get punished for it.
00:27:47.400 My own view is I don't think people should be fired for political speech except in extreme situations, but there's going to be consequences.
00:27:54.380 So, yeah, to me, it's just a matter of, like, protecting universities.
00:27:56.820 But, Jesse, let me push you on that.
00:27:57.460 How if you are running a small dentist's office and you've got two dentists and your chief hygienist is cheering on the 10-7 attack, this is what resistance looks like, you know, I don't care about the dead babies at all.
00:28:16.460 We need 1,200 more.
00:28:19.140 How do you continue employing that person and have any Jewish clientele?
00:28:25.880 It doesn't work.
00:28:28.080 There absolutely should be firings in response to behavior like that.
00:28:32.460 There are some thoughts that are so vile you render yourself unemployable.
00:28:37.800 There are people who are out there saying, you know, blacks are bad people.
00:28:43.520 I don't want anything to do with them.
00:28:45.240 Universally, because of the color of their skin, they're this or the other thing. 0.62
00:28:49.500 That's Katie's view, actually.
00:28:51.080 But they've rendered themselves unemployable with those views.
00:28:56.780 I am fine with that.
00:28:58.080 That is not cancel culture.
00:29:02.140 I think I agree with you.
00:29:03.540 I'm also now I'm picturing a dental hygienist talking about 10-7 while cleaning someone's seats.
00:29:07.840 I can't get that out of my head.
00:29:09.500 Right on.
00:29:10.240 I agree with that.
00:29:12.940 I mean, like there's a price to pay to hold truly heinous opinions.
00:29:18.200 Part of the problem that Katie and I have experienced is that people seem to have extremely liberal views or maybe not illiberal views of what is a heinous view.
00:29:28.760 Saying there's two.
00:29:29.740 This is true.
00:29:30.180 Even a friend of ours at Harvard basically had her career partially ruined because she thinks there's two sexes. 1.00
00:29:36.440 And there's people who find that more offensive than celebrating 10-7, which is deranged to me.
00:29:41.660 But we live in a, you know, a colorfully, entertainingly deranging country because it's the freest country on earth and people are allowed to say what they want.
00:29:48.460 This is this is a good point, too, because I know you guys have both gotten in trouble, quote unquote, for your views on the trans issue, like biological sex is real and people aren't two sexes or three genders or a tree gender or spring gender, whatever it is.
00:30:02.960 Anyway, the tree gender is real. 0.65
00:30:04.360 Actually, that's the one real one.
00:30:06.040 That's my summation of your position.
00:30:10.560 Thank you, Megan.
00:30:11.280 But I do think the trans thing is an interesting parallel because I'm very, very aware of the fact that this has come back to haunt our side on this many, many times.
00:30:22.060 And what they say, these trans advocates, is you're arguing for my erasure.
00:30:28.720 You don't recognize my right to exist, which is kind of similar to what some of these Jewish students on campus are saying.
00:30:39.020 And in one situation, it may actually be real, the Jewish situation, if you're saying, you know, gee, I really hope Hamas targets you next with its rockets. 0.93
00:30:48.540 And in one, it's not you're not saying you can't exist.
00:30:53.380 You're saying I don't see this issue of gender and biological sex the way you do.
00:30:58.100 You can continue existing just as you are.
00:31:01.000 It doesn't mean I have to say you can come into a woman's bathroom or come into women's sports. 1.00
00:31:05.220 But I see your argument on the slippery slope.
00:31:07.500 I don't I was hard on you, Jesse, but I also have the same worries about where we're not going to be the ones who get to draw the line.
00:31:15.560 It's going to be the hard leftists who get to draw the line or the heart or the heart right wingers.
00:31:20.200 I mean, this is why Jesse and I have been talking about this now for four years with each other on our show.
00:31:25.740 And this is why we tend to draw the line as liberally as possible.
00:31:29.520 This is why I think the First Amendment really is the best the best metric here.
00:31:35.700 Part of defending speech is defending is defending speech that you find odious.
00:31:40.480 And as Jesse said, there are people who find the fact that you, Megan, misgender.
00:31:44.800 And I know you don't like that term.
00:31:46.300 Maybe let's call it correctly.
00:31:47.440 Sex people, trans people find that so offensive that they think that you shouldn't be allowed in polite society.
00:31:53.460 A lot of people think that.
00:31:56.020 And so, you know, we live in this, as Jesse said, we live in this big, messy, pluralistic society.
00:32:01.120 And it does not come down to one individual to decide what is socially acceptable and what isn't.
00:32:06.700 And so to me, I think we just need to be as liberal as possible on these on these issues, because that protects the most speech.
00:32:13.660 That protects minority opinions.
00:32:15.160 It also protects majority opinions.
00:32:16.900 It is complex.
00:32:18.460 And that means hearing things that really, really disturb you.
00:32:22.740 I'm sure for some Jews on campus, I'm also sure there are plenty of Jews who are parked out in one, who are sleeping in one of Fergie Chambers tents right now.
00:32:31.760 But there are, I'm sure there are plenty of Jews at Columbia who are deeply uncomfortable, maybe offended, maybe hurt by what's happening right now.
00:32:40.160 But we've also talked for the last few years about this concept of safetyism.
00:32:44.060 We've said things like words are not violence.
00:32:46.520 OK, but wait, I get I get all that.
00:32:48.680 But they actually have reason to be concerned, at least according to this rabbi who sent out a message to some 300 or 200 Jewish students on the campus of Columbia on Monday saying, I am sorry to say this, but you should not come to campus.
00:33:06.040 I've been informed that campus police cannot guarantee your safety.
00:33:10.200 You should not come.
00:33:11.520 You should go home.
00:33:12.260 And like this is something if if if my kid were there and received such a warning from a respected rabbi connected with the university, I would not send him. 0.79
00:33:22.520 I would urge him not to go, even though I'm much more of the normal reaction of get in there and get up in their grill.
00:33:27.980 But I want my child to be safe and to live.
00:33:30.020 This is actual safety.
00:33:31.240 This isn't the bullshit rhetorical safety that we get lectured on.
00:33:34.100 I don't want to slice the kosher salami too thin, but there's a fair number of Jewish students in the encampments on the pro-Palestinian side.
00:33:44.100 I have not seen any evidence that this is as straightforward as Jewish students being attacked.
00:33:49.900 And I know people are going to be mad at me for making this distinction.
00:33:52.060 But I think if you go up to one of these protests and identify yourself as a Zionist or pro-Israel, yeah, things are very heated.
00:33:59.460 And there have been a small number of physical attacks.
00:34:01.380 I also like I just people should keep the perspective in mind that given how big a country this is, how many protests have been, how many how raucous those protests have been, there has not been a lot of violence.
00:34:15.520 I'm not sure there has been some.
00:34:17.700 There's been some.
00:34:18.480 One girl just got a Palestinian flag in the eye. 0.98
00:34:20.840 Well, even that by Vanderbilt.
00:34:24.020 When I watched the tape, I did not think it was an intentional stabbing, but she did get a Palestinian flag in the eye.
00:34:29.280 Yeah, but then there was a protest down in Vanderbilt where there was actual violence that broke out in the back of that truck where somebody got attacked with a with an Israeli flag.
00:34:38.440 I think it was an Israeli flag that was used against a pro-Israeli person.
00:34:41.880 We had the video and showed it.
00:34:43.240 But there have been instances of violence.
00:34:45.220 And it's like when they're actually chanting for violence, how do you know they don't mean it?
00:34:52.540 Well, they probably, first of all, they don't understand.
00:34:55.520 I mean, I'm laughing when I say this because there's actually been polling on on students.
00:35:00.880 A professor out of Berkeley did some polling about these slogans that that that have been very popular since October 7th.
00:35:07.080 From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free slogans about the Antifada. 0.96
00:35:10.640 And this Berkeley professor found that students literally don't know what they're saying.
00:35:15.620 They're just repeating slogans because this is what people do.
00:35:19.340 I mean, we've got we've got a token Jew right here.
00:35:21.780 Jesse, do you feel you're in New York?
00:35:23.660 Do you feel unsafe walking down the streets of New York?
00:35:26.220 I mean, yes.
00:35:27.920 Yes, it's an unsafe town.
00:35:29.720 Yeah, I do.
00:35:30.380 I mean, women are getting punched in the face at random in case you haven't heard. 1.00
00:35:33.480 It's happening.
00:35:34.020 I'm not an elderly Asian woman, so I feel pretty safe. 1.00
00:35:36.680 Megan, if you got women, all it takes is being a woman. 1.00
00:35:39.220 Women are getting punched in the face by a bunch of randos who think this is a new fun sport.
00:35:43.940 And have you been on the subway recently?
00:35:46.320 I mean, there's like everyone down there is fucking crazy.
00:35:49.320 No, I don't go on the subway anymore.
00:35:51.000 And by the way, it's not just because now I have money or whatever.
00:35:53.260 I spent my entire formative years as an adult on the New York City subway going to my job as a lawyer for, you know, almost a decade.
00:36:00.360 And then when I came back and worked at Fox News, same.
00:36:03.000 This wasn't until later in my career where I got some money where I started using a card service.
00:36:06.240 But no, I wouldn't go down there now.
00:36:09.220 I think if you're Jewish, we have a unique, uniquely horrific recent history. 1.00
00:36:15.860 And it's understandable that that will color the way we interpret the world.
00:36:18.800 And I think sometimes I don't know how to phrase this because it's impossible to phrase this without pissing people off.
00:36:25.940 But but sometimes like we there's a little bit of catastrophizing going on.
00:36:30.240 I saw an Israeli professor at Columbia who was barred from reentering the campus compare that to when the Nazis barred Jews from entering German universities.
00:36:39.560 That is not that is not what this is.
00:36:41.440 There is a scary moment right now.
00:36:43.300 People are very heated.
00:36:44.740 I don't think it helps anybody to pretend we're on the verge of another Holocaust or widespread pogroms.
00:36:51.320 And this is the same argument Katie and I have made when people claim that unarmed black people are being killed in droves or trans women are being killed in droves.
00:36:59.500 There's a little bit of a tendency for people to spread the scariest version of a given moment.
00:37:03.720 And while I think there's reasons to worry, I would not want to be a Jewish student in Columbia who is who is pro-Israel. 0.95
00:37:08.100 I just I think there's something to be said for maybe chilling out a little bit, frankly, even being a Jewish student who's wearing a yarmulke, whatever your feelings on Israel is not going to go well for you.
00:37:17.820 If you're a Jewish student, just wear a keffiyeh. 1.00
00:37:20.040 Just wear the keffiyeh. 1.00
00:37:21.140 Just do both.
00:37:22.120 It's not very non-binary.
00:37:24.380 It's very, very confusing.
00:37:26.000 Pick a side.
00:37:27.200 All right.
00:37:27.400 I don't I don't want to end without spending a minute on the trans stuff.
00:37:30.880 You guys are really good and have really been leaders on that at a time when it was very controversial to say what was real.
00:37:38.100 And we just had a disappointing result in New Hampshire as the House there was taking up this bill that would have banned boys from girls public school sports and the Senate, as I understand it, there was a Senate bill.
00:37:53.220 And now that the House took it up and person after person got up there to try to dissuade these House members from passing this bill, demanding that instead the boys be allowed to run in the girls races and play in the girls.
00:38:08.100 There was one boy who poses as a girl trying to make this point, Mael Jacques.
00:38:17.240 This person is crushing all the girls right now in his chosen sport, posing as a girl. 0.82
00:38:23.320 And so needless to say, he was against the ban.
00:38:26.640 Take a listen to SOT 23.
00:38:27.640 Throughout my entire life, sports have been an integral part to my belonging, playing playing soccer since the age of three.
00:38:35.760 When I began my transition in the sixth grade, my school welcomed me onto the girls team.
00:38:40.040 This act of being able to be a part of the teams I belong to allowed me to skip through the phase of social ostracization as the other girls accepted me for who I was.
00:38:48.440 Being part of the team allowed me to be seen as normal, where everywhere else I could be perceived as a pariah.
00:38:54.080 I didn't join sports with the goal of dominating competition or being better than anyone else.
00:38:58.820 I joined because it's something I'm passionate about and enjoy.
00:39:02.380 If banned from sports teams and locker rooms, joining the male teams wouldn't even be a choice for me with the bullying and threats I'd receive, let alone the mental anguish I'd go through being forced to be someone I'm not.
00:39:12.340 Yeah, you feel uncomfortable when you're forced to share a locker room with men.
00:39:16.500 That's how women feel, too. 1.00
00:39:18.320 This guy won the girls high jump in February at the New Hampshire Interscholastic Athletic Association Division II State Indoor Track and Field Championship.
00:39:25.640 Won it.
00:39:26.340 Finished first place with a five foot one mark on the high jump.
00:39:32.300 That was an inch better than any of his female competitors, but way below the lowest high jump in the boys division, which was five eight.
00:39:39.700 So if he would, you know, once again, like be girl sports is not a solution for middling male athletes.
00:39:46.800 And he's competed in seven meets this year and he's earned six first place finishes for the high jump.
00:39:53.260 So I'm sure he doesn't want that ability to go away.
00:39:56.560 And sadly, I don't think it will because they voted against the ban.
00:40:02.080 Katie, your thoughts.
00:40:03.040 You know, I haven't read the bill itself, so I'm going into this not not fully informed.
00:40:12.500 I mean, it is a more complex issue than I think just the way that it's more complex than than either side, I think, has a tendency to sort of pose.
00:40:24.960 I mean, if this kid transitioned and took puberty blockers from never went through male puberty, there is a difference, a physiological difference between someone like Jazz Jennings, say, and someone like, I don't know, Leah Thomas, who did go through male puberty.
00:40:43.060 And I think the law, it's possible that the law should reflect that.
00:40:47.280 And there are, you know, there's this tendency on why should my daughter, who's 12, have to go in to the girls locker room and see a man, a boy with a penis.
00:40:58.100 Do you think that I under I totally understand where you're coming from, but I just you know who Jazz Jennings is, right?
00:41:04.080 Yeah. Yes.
00:41:05.080 Do you think that Jazz Jennings should be using male facilities?
00:41:08.700 Jazz Jennings should be a man.
00:41:10.220 I do think so.
00:41:10.820 Okay, so even after having full sex reassignment, having a vaginoplasty, you think that?
00:41:18.580 Yep.
00:41:19.160 Okay.
00:41:19.600 And so someone like, you know who Buck Angel is, right?
00:41:22.600 No, I don't know Buck Angel.
00:41:24.120 Okay, Buck Angel. 1.00
00:41:25.120 He's a very buff trans guy.
00:41:27.420 Very, very buff trans guy.
00:41:29.300 He's a very famous trans man.
00:41:31.540 He's a friend of ours.
00:41:32.380 He's gender critical.
00:41:33.200 You would like his politics.
00:41:34.360 If you saw a picture of Buck, you would never in a million years think that Buck was born female.
00:41:42.620 You wouldn't.
00:41:43.240 And so under your sort of what you would like to see is you would like to see someone like Buck in the changing room with your daughter.
00:41:50.760 I can guarantee you, I don't know your daughter, but I can guarantee you that most women are going to feel more comfortable with someone like Jazz Jennings in the locker room than someone like Buck Angel.
00:42:00.520 Well, you've made a leap that I didn't accept because it's different when it goes the other way.
00:42:05.600 When you're talking about women who pose as men, it's just the safety threat is not present the way it is when it's a man posing as a woman.
00:42:12.500 And you guys know all about the autogynophiles, not to mention the non-autogynophiles who are just male perverts who will exploit these rules, allowing access to our daughter's bathrooms and locker rooms.
00:42:23.500 So, yeah, I'm very, very firm no on it.
00:42:26.840 So you think the law should be written so that no, like just like no dicks in the ladies room? 1.00
00:42:32.340 They should write the law. Biological men should not be allowed to access women's spaces, period. 1.00
00:42:36.360 OK, but biological women should be allowed to access male spaces. Is that your position? 1.00
00:42:40.680 It's just not my threat. It's not my issue because there is no evidence of biological women who pose as men causing any sort of a threat to men.
00:42:50.880 And I believe that in part is why men don't complain about this the way they do, the way we do.
00:42:55.980 And they advocate on our behalf as well.
00:42:58.440 And it's also doesn't there's not the same fairness issue when they cross over into sports.
00:43:02.560 No, I agree with you. But I also I mean, I read one article that your producer sent us about this.
00:43:07.800 And there was one Republican legislator who said that the reason that he that he voted not to not to voted against this bill was because there was a clause in this particular bill that would also ban trans women.
00:43:24.680 So trans male, I'm sorry, trans boys. So natal females from competing in men and male sports. 0.99
00:43:32.460 He said that was a threat to men's sports. And so I think it's just I think it's a little bit more nuanced than both sides have its tendency to to sort of say when it comes to this.
00:43:43.220 I don't know. I'd be curious to get Jesse's take on this. Jesse, what do you think?
00:43:47.840 All right. Whatever. I agree with whatever Katie said, unless people later find it offensive, in which case I retroactively disavow it.
00:43:55.740 Right, man.
00:43:58.040 Right on. Oh, Jesse, Katie, thank you so much for joining me today. It's great to see you again.
00:44:03.160 You too.
00:44:03.900 Thank you for having us.
00:44:04.600 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.
00:44:12.440 Thank you for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.