The Megyn Kelly Show - Gabby Petito’s Death, Theranos Fraud Trial, and Britney Spears with Brian Entin, Mark Eiglarsh and Arthur Aidala

00:00:00.480 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:12.860 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:16.340 Well, by now you've all heard the story of Gabby Petito, the young van life blogger whose fiancee returned from a cross-country trip without her.

00:00:25.080 The search for Gabby ended last Sunday when a body matching her description was found at a campsite in Wyoming.

00:00:33.220 Her fiancee, Brian Laundrie, is on the run.

00:00:36.860 And top investigators believe his family may have worked to help him escape before the police could question him.

00:00:42.660 We're getting new details on all of that.

00:00:44.860 This as we learn that the coroner has ruled that it was Gabby's body and that her death was a homicide.

00:00:52.740 Joining me now for the very latest in the case is Brian Enten.

00:00:56.420 He's a correspondent for News Nation, and he's been following all the details on this case since this story broke.

00:01:02.560 In just a bit, we're going to be joined by our legal panel, Mark Eiglarsch and Arthur Idala,

00:01:07.220 both of whom have an extensive history in criminal law as lawyers.

00:01:11.900 But I want to get the facts first with Brian.

00:01:14.400 Brian, thank you so much for being here.

00:01:15.620 So the very latest, as I understand it, is this ruling from the coroner that, indeed, we knew it was Gabby and that this was a homicide.

00:01:23.440 But they've said precious little else in terms of exactly how that homicide was committed.

00:01:28.580 Yeah, that's right, Megan.

00:01:29.220 I spoke with the coroner yesterday.

00:01:31.000 Basically, all they're confirming right now is that it's a homicide.

00:01:33.960 They won't give the exact cause of death.

00:01:36.080 And they say now everything has to go through the FBI.

00:01:39.080 So we're getting very little information from the actual local officials in Wyoming right now.

00:01:43.120 As best we understand, when do we believe that Gabby died based on what we know in terms of the boyfriend returning back to Florida and so on?

00:01:51.060 Well, that's a good question.

00:01:52.640 And we just don't know.

00:01:53.860 I mean, we're hoping to get that information from the autopsy report eventually.

00:01:57.300 The timeline, it's hard to piece together because there's so many moving pieces.

00:02:01.400 And we just don't know who to believe in this case.

00:02:04.320 I mean, Brian Laundrie's parents are saying one thing.

00:02:07.900 Things we're seeing with our own eyes outside the house are telling us something different.

00:02:11.560 And so it's hard to have an exact timeline because there's like different stories flying around in all different directions right now.

00:02:17.020 OK, so I don't want to assume that the audience knows the story, even though it's been everywhere.

00:02:20.620 I'm just going to do a little bit of setup and people who understand the story will forgive me for just a few minutes of background if they already know it.

00:02:26.620 And people who don't understand it, I think, will be grateful for the explainer, as we say in the news business.

00:02:32.380 Gabby and her her one time fiance, then they called off the wedding and decided to just be boyfriend and girlfriend, Brian.

00:02:38.560 So they set off from Florida. He was from Florida. She was originally from Long Island.

00:02:42.880 And as I understand it, and they decide to go cross country in her in her van to see some of the national parks and so on.

00:02:50.600 It was going to be a four month trip. And she posted some some video from, you know, her her van life excursions.

00:02:58.880 And people were sort of falling in love with these posts. She was becoming a social media influencer.

00:03:03.940 But let's take a listen to some of her talking about van life on YouTube.

00:03:09.200 So me and Brian just got up and got ready, made the bed in the tent.

00:03:16.880 Brian's stretching, doing some morning yoga.

00:03:20.800 So we are right outside Capitol Reef right now in a free dispersed camp spot.

00:03:28.120 And we've been lucky so far at all the places we've stayed.

00:03:31.500 But I'd say this is one of the best so far since we left New York.

00:03:34.940 I've only set up my hammock once and now we're all the way in Utah.

00:03:38.300 And luckily enough, I was able to set up my hammock, one of these trees.

00:03:41.100 This is so disturbing to watch now that, you know, she's dead.

00:03:44.720 22 years old, graduated from high school not long ago.

00:03:48.200 And now she's dead. And they say and he's on the run.

00:03:51.140 I mean, you tell me why he's on the run.

00:03:53.800 But this guy, there's reason to believe he had a history of hurting her.

00:03:57.500 Tell us why.

00:03:58.820 So basically, the video you just showed, that's all we had up until a week ago.

00:04:02.120 And everyone thought, oh, my gosh, this is the most beautiful, incredible couple on this amazing road trip.

00:04:08.340 Then came out this this body camera video that showed a whole different side to the situation.

00:04:14.640 We saw that there was major trouble in paradise.

00:04:17.420 There was issues with the relationship.

00:04:19.820 Gabby claimed that Brian hit him.

00:04:22.360 He claimed that Gabby had hit him.

00:04:26.580 And it was just a total mess, the body camera video.

00:04:29.060 And it showed that there were major issues.

00:04:30.940 OK, we have that. Let's watch it.

00:04:33.080 Some days I have really bad OCD.

00:04:36.500 And I was just cleaning and straightening up the back of the van before.

00:04:41.560 And I was apologizing to him and saying, I'm sorry that I'm so mean.

00:04:46.020 Because sometimes I have OCD and sometimes I just get really frustrated.

00:04:49.260 And I just plan my job to travel across the country.

00:04:52.840 And I'm trying to start a blog.

00:04:55.920 I just have a blog.

00:04:56.800 So I've been building my website.

00:04:58.720 So I've just been really stressed.

00:05:00.120 And he doesn't really believe that I can do any of it.

00:05:02.860 So that's kind of been like a, I don't know, he's like down there.

00:05:07.420 I don't know, we've just been fighting one morning and he wouldn't let me in the car before.

00:05:12.480 I didn't get overtly physical.

00:05:13.880 I was just trying to keep her away and not get hit.

00:05:16.280 And then I got really loud and my best fight threw up his attention where I was going, you know,

00:05:20.940 I'm not going to release you guys together.

00:05:25.520 I want you guys to stay away from each other tonight.

00:05:28.100 Okay.

00:05:29.840 She's agreed to it.

00:05:31.940 Take some time to yourselves.

00:05:33.900 You guys both have the exact same story as to what led up to the incident.

00:05:37.940 So taking some time tonight.

00:05:40.900 Specifically.

00:05:42.980 Taking tonight away from each other is going to be the major breaker in all of this.

00:05:47.120 I think that will help you guys.

00:05:48.500 I mean, knowing that she, she was killed within days of that is just chilling.

00:05:54.820 So there, the reason they got pulled over in the first place by these cops and, and had to explain themselves was what?

00:06:01.480 Yeah.

00:06:01.620 So that was back on August 12th.

00:06:03.040 It is hard to watch now with the situation that we're in, but basically a witness named Christopher called in and said that he saw Brian hitting Gabby and that Brian had locked Gabby out of her own van.

00:06:14.280 And she was trying to actually climb in the driver's side window.

00:06:17.380 And he said, was nervous that Brian was going to leave her on the side of the road.

00:06:21.780 Police respond out.

00:06:22.920 You saw the body camera video.

00:06:24.220 It went on for about an hour and 17 minutes.

00:06:26.080 They did a pretty extensive investigation out there.

00:06:28.300 In the end, decided this did not rise to the level of a crime and said, look, we're going to separate you for the night.

00:06:34.520 They sent Brian to a hotel room that the police actually paid for.

00:06:38.760 And they sent Gabby to her van.

00:06:41.260 They said, you stay in the van for the night, Brian.

00:06:42.760 You go to the hotel room.

00:06:44.060 Cool down.

00:06:44.980 And hopefully everything will be OK tomorrow.

00:06:46.860 That was August 12th, but she was still texting with her mother into the 20s of August.

00:06:54.720 And then there was a post, I think, on August 25th on her Instagram trying to get my because she last spoke with her mother, Nicole, on August 23rd on FaceTime on August 25th was her last post published to her Instagram account, though we don't know whether she's the one who did it.

00:07:10.200 And by August 27th, her mother received an odd text that she was not at all sure came from her daughter.

00:07:18.400 Another text came in to the mom on August 30th that just read no service in Yosemite from her daughter's phone.

00:07:24.840 Again, zero reason to believe that actually was the daughter texting or that they could have gotten to Yosemite in the amount of time.

00:07:32.200 You know, we're not sure whether all these locations are true.

00:07:35.000 And within two days, Brian Laundrie returned home to his house in Florida in Gabby's van without Gabby.

00:07:43.920 Yeah, I mean, it gets super strange at the end of August.

00:07:47.160 You mentioned it.

00:07:47.760 There's no way they could have made it to Yosemite.

00:07:49.680 The last text that Gabby sent to her mother, she was talking about her grandpa and called her own grandpa Stan.

00:07:57.480 That's actually the grandpa's first name.

00:07:59.220 But the mom says Gabby would have never called her own grandpa Stan.

00:08:03.060 And she always just called her, called him grandpa.

00:08:05.820 And so the mom knew something was very, very strange at the end of August.

00:08:09.800 Yes.

00:08:10.060 Then Brian shows up in Florida in the van at his parents' house where we are right now in Northport, Florida.

00:08:15.400 And there's no sign of Gabby.

00:08:17.720 And so what happens like when he comes back to Florida with the van and her family's wondering where she is and why they haven't heard from her?

00:08:26.440 What's the next event?

00:08:27.540 Like, has anybody laid eyes on him?

00:08:29.960 I realize there have been some people saying, I saw him here, I saw him there, none of which has been confirmed.

00:08:33.980 But has anyone confirmed laid eyes on this guy since he got back to Florida?

00:08:39.800 Not confirmed.

00:08:41.040 There was an interesting development yesterday.

00:08:43.940 The neighbors across the street say they think they saw Brian's parents and possibly Brian packing up a different camper to go camping while Gabby was missing.

00:08:54.140 They couldn't give an exact date on that, but they say they may have seen Brian outside.

00:08:59.840 But the other interesting point about when he returns to Florida is, you know, Gabby was obviously his fiancee.

00:09:04.940 The families were very close.

00:09:06.500 There were many times that Brian had stayed with Gabby's family.

00:09:09.100 There were many times that Gabby had stayed with Brian's family.

00:09:11.160 So this family knew each other well.

00:09:12.520 Gabby's mom says that after Brian returned to Florida and no one knew where Gabby was and her parents basically start freaking out, rightfully so, she says she started texting Brian's mom and dad and saying, like, what's going on?

00:09:26.420 Where's Gabby?

00:09:27.160 What do you know?

00:09:28.700 And Brian's parents were just ignoring her, flat out ignoring her texts.

00:09:33.460 Because that's when Gabby's parents say, like, they realize something is very, very wrong here.

00:09:39.820 And that's what caused them to contact the police.

00:09:43.640 And the way it looks is he allegedly got back to Florida.

00:09:46.880 I mean, the van made it back, so we can presume he he was driving it.

00:09:50.660 He lawyered up.

00:09:52.340 His lawyer came out and said he's exercising his constitutional right not to speak with police.

00:09:56.840 They always look at the partner as a suspect when someone disappears.

00:10:00.240 And I'm not letting him talk to the police.

00:10:02.480 His parents start blowing off her parents' desperate pleas.

00:10:05.880 They come out on camera and make a public desperate plea for them to cooperate, the other family.

00:10:11.540 And then finally, his parents do contact police and say what about their son and give us the date on which they did that.

00:10:22.260 OK, so again, very, very strange last week.

00:10:24.600 All week long, we were interviewing the police chief every single day, and he's saying we know where Brian Laundrie is right now.

00:10:31.040 We have our eyes on him.

00:10:32.640 We know where he is.

00:10:33.480 We're not going to tell you reporters, but we know where he is.

00:10:35.820 OK, so that happens all week long.

00:10:37.700 On Friday, Friday of last week, all of a sudden, Brian's parents call the Northport police and say, come to the house.

00:10:45.360 Brian is missing.

00:10:46.380 So the police show up to Brian's house.

00:10:50.080 Brian's parents say, we'll only talk to you with our lawyer on speakerphone, and we're not going to talk at all about Gabby Petito.

00:10:56.300 We are not talking at all about the disappearance of Gabby.

00:10:58.840 But we do want to let you know that Brian has now disappeared, and we don't know where he is.

00:11:03.820 And the last time we saw him was on Tuesday of last week when he allegedly went hiking in a wildlife preserve.

00:11:09.920 Tuesday of last week or Tuesday of the week that they were talking to him, like four days earlier or four days?

00:11:15.020 Four days earlier.

00:11:15.720 Four days earlier.

00:11:16.620 Four days went by from the time they say they last saw him and he went hiking to when they called the police.

00:11:20.980 So the speculation is that they sent the police on a wild goose chase into some 25,000 acre nature preserve that's full of water and snakes and water moccasins and so on down there, knowing that their son was nowhere near there.

00:11:36.040 Because if you dovetail it with the neighbor's alleged testimonial, the neighbor saw the parents and their son, Brian, their adult son, 23 years old, leave in a small camper, a camper they thought was too small for three people, days before all of this.

00:11:53.000 And the speculation is what on that, Brian, that this guy's parents were doing what?

00:11:58.500 The speculation is that they may be sending the police on a wild goose chase.

00:12:03.120 They sent the police to the reserve, which you mentioned is 24,000 acres with gators and snakes, and it's really put police in a tough spot.

00:12:10.000 I mean, it's an awful place to search.

00:12:11.920 And police have been very clear with us.

00:12:13.780 They've said, we're still working to corroborate the parent's story.

00:12:17.660 We don't even know if they're, you know, if they're telling the truth.

00:12:21.620 The police may now know something different that they're not telling us reporters now that the FBI is involved.

00:12:26.360 But last I talked to Northport police, they were still trying to corroborate the story.

00:12:30.180 Last question before I let you go.

00:12:31.120 I have heard reports that when they found Gabby's remains, that she was not buried.

00:12:38.640 And so far, I haven't heard a confirmation about whether they found a clothed body or not.

00:12:43.780 Have you heard any information on that?

00:12:46.160 I've heard no information about the condition of the body or how long it may have been there or if it was clothed.

00:12:51.940 But I do know that the body was discovered, and it did not take very long for the FBI to come out and say, we believe this is Gabby Petito.

00:13:02.020 I mean, it was only a matter of hours.

00:13:03.740 So that may be some kind of indication of the condition of the body.

00:13:07.500 Mm-hmm.

00:13:07.780 Thank you so much, Brian.

00:13:09.460 I appreciate you being here.

00:13:10.720 We appreciate it.

00:13:11.440 Yeah.

00:13:11.840 Thanks for having me, Megan.

00:13:13.240 Joining me now, Mark Eiglarsh, former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney.

00:13:16.640 Also with us, Arthur Idala, trial attorney and managing partner at Idala, Bertuna, and Caymans.

00:13:22.020 All right.

00:13:22.320 Thanks, guys, for being here.

00:13:23.380 So, I mean, let's just start with the parents of the boyfriend slash one-time fiance.

00:13:29.720 You tell me.

00:13:30.560 But this stinks to high heaven.

00:13:31.940 They got their hands as dirty as they come, in my view.

00:13:34.980 Mark?

00:13:35.540 Well, it would seem that way.

00:13:36.760 I would like to know what went on in that household, what they're alleging occurred, what was told to them, what wasn't.

00:13:42.560 Maybe it was just a look on their face that seemed to indicate that something nefarious took place.

00:13:47.420 I don't know.

00:13:48.720 It looks like they did something wrong.

00:13:50.700 But I got to ask you, whether it be now or at some point during this podcast, I've been dying to know.

00:13:55.980 What would you do, Parker?

00:13:58.880 No, I agree, Mark.

00:13:59.880 Honestly, let me ask the question.

00:14:01.800 I dreamed of it, and that was my primary motivation for coming on the podcast.

00:14:05.200 I wanted to ask both of you honestly, if your precious offspring came home and one of them looked at you in the eyes and said they did something nefarious, what would you do?

00:14:16.080 My brother, go ahead.

00:14:17.960 No, well, we had this conversation in my office, and one of my colleagues, who's the mother of four, said, you know, I would sit down with my son and say, you know, you did something horrible.

00:14:27.700 And, you know, we're going to work through this together and we're going to support you, but we're going to surrender you to the FBI.

00:14:32.780 And I think my instinct was, no, no way.

00:14:36.300 Like, I just, especially, and Megan, I apologize for not digging deeper, but I believe it's a death penalty eligible crime in the state of Wyoming.

00:14:45.860 So am I going to turn my kid over to the authorities to be killed, possibly be killed?

00:14:51.220 I, you know, I don't see that happening.

00:14:52.700 They're down in Florida.

00:14:53.720 I could see a boat.

00:14:54.720 I could see Venezuela or Cuba or something and just say, get out of Dodge.

00:14:59.240 But listen, but why are we going right to a situation as though he's been caught red-handed?

00:15:06.200 I mean, I, one of, I think, look, this is my total speculation, not knowing much more than I've just reported about the case, but it looks like the guy did it.

00:15:13.800 I mean, it certainly looks like the guy did it and it looks like there's, yeah, I mean, it looks like there's consciousness of guilt.

00:15:19.300 He's, he fled, he wouldn't speak to the authorities.

00:15:21.160 He has the van.

00:15:22.240 She's missing.

00:15:23.180 No, I know.

00:15:23.720 I got, I got it.

00:15:25.180 I got it.

00:15:25.540 But, you know, I don't want to, I also don't want to wrongly impugn the guy before we've had a trial.

00:15:29.820 However, however, me believing he did it, me thinking this stinks is not the same as proving it beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:15:36.220 Right now that he did the right thing legally by not speaking to the police.

00:15:39.960 I agree with, with his lawyer on that.

00:15:41.960 But what the, what the prosecution has at the moment is a dead body.

00:15:47.060 It's her.

00:15:47.900 They can tell that she was killed by someone and his showing up in another state with the van.

00:15:56.420 Let's talk about that prior to him fleeing, because to me, you're going to have a tough time making reasonable doubt.

00:16:01.980 I mean, he could argue anything.

00:16:02.920 They never have to put him on the stand.

00:16:04.700 His lawyers can say, who knows what happened?

00:16:07.080 They had a fight.

00:16:07.980 She stormed off.

00:16:09.020 He never saw her again.

00:16:10.260 We don't know how, who killed her or how.

00:16:12.340 Hang on, I'll play the role of the prosecutor right now.

00:16:14.600 We can't make an arrest.

00:16:15.820 How, what, what facts are you going to go in front of a judge?

00:16:19.500 Now, I'm the prosecutor, right?

00:16:20.820 I'm the elected prosecutor, so I don't want to mess this up.

00:16:23.380 So, what facts do I have to put in front of a judge to secure an arrest warrant?

00:16:27.900 What probable cause do I have?

00:16:29.500 Now, it all hinges on the details of the coroner's report.

00:16:34.780 If the medical examiner says she died from blunt force to her head or whatever, and under her fingernails is his skin and his blood, which is a clear defensive wound.

00:16:46.080 Now, maybe I have something, but the mere fact that they traveled together, he came back without her, that's, there are so many, so many different scenarios that a criminal defense attorney could stand up and put forth to a jury that at this point you cannot, you cannot make an arrest.

00:17:01.780 There is not enough probable cause by the case law to make an arrest that he committed this crime.

00:17:06.360 Well, let's just say this.

00:17:07.740 They made the determination it was a homicide, not suicide, not accidental, not natural.

00:17:12.340 So, there has to be something that evidences it was at the hand of another.

00:17:17.560 I'm assuming strangulation marks.

00:17:19.680 I'm assuming some type of slit throat, some stabbing, maybe a shooting, stuff like that, that you would typically see, right?

00:17:27.400 Now, the question is, whodunit?

00:17:29.400 I think there's plenty enough circumstantial evidence to indicate that he is most reasonably the person who did it.

00:17:35.560 And good luck claiming it was Bigfoot out in the wilderness who did this to her.

00:17:40.180 But what's the evidence?

00:17:41.100 What do you mean?

00:17:41.520 What's the evidence?

00:17:42.060 The evidence is they were together.

00:17:43.760 The evidence is merely that they were together.

00:17:46.740 That's it.

00:17:47.160 There's nothing more than that.

00:17:48.500 That's the thing.

00:17:48.920 I mean, checking, checking our individual beliefs as reasonable people looking at these circumstances,

00:17:54.940 because that, you know, that doesn't determine whether you get to charge as a prosecutor or whether there's, you know, no reasonable doubt as a juror.

00:18:01.980 They have to be able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:18:04.680 What is the proof that she wasn't left alone, that he did again what he did the first time, which is stay out of the van.

00:18:09.960 I'm taking your van.

00:18:10.680 I'm taking your keys.

00:18:11.440 I'm taking your phone.

00:18:12.440 You're screwed.

00:18:13.180 And left her.

00:18:14.260 And some bad guy in the middle of nowhere came along and did her harm.

00:18:18.620 And weren't there two other people killed in that area, Mark?

00:18:21.360 Weren't there two other women who went missing in that area?

00:18:25.660 I mean, there's just there's just again, Megan, to your point, when you asked earlier about the lawyer, hypothetically, if the kid came in and said, look, we were we were hiking and she slipped and she fell and hit her head.

00:18:38.020 And and, you know, that's all.

00:18:40.840 And I panicked and I left.

00:18:42.220 Well, then I may have him go in and chat, maybe.

00:18:45.480 But when you know when he goes absolutely silent, there is a commonsensical presumption that he's doing that because he has nothing good to say.

00:18:52.780 And then he flees.

00:18:53.580 I mean, that's the thing.

00:18:54.160 So when you talk about what would I do as a parent, God forbid, right, God forbid any parent find themselves in this situation.

00:18:59.440 But you if if the kid has a reasonable chance of beating the charge, I'd much rather see him stand trial and try to beat the charge while exercising his constitutional rights than flee.

00:19:12.800 And God knows where this guy is right now or whether anybody will ever see him again or whether he's committed self harm.

00:19:18.500 I have no idea.

00:19:19.260 I don't really care that much about his well-being because I think the guy probably committed a murder.

00:19:23.000 But, you know, it's it's tough when you put it in the mask me to put my mother hat on and how I would have dealt with this different than when I have my prosecutor hat on.

00:19:31.060 You tell me now that they if they get him, if they capture this guy, will it be admissible that he fled?

00:19:37.800 Will it be admissible that he was seen slapping her as reported, as you can hear on a 911 call?

00:19:43.720 And then the cops, you know, get them to admit that, Mark.

00:19:46.640 I think, yes, I think that should all come in.

00:19:49.500 I think it's all relevant.

00:19:50.480 I think it goes to consciousness of guilt.

00:19:52.000 I think that when you put it on a scale and you balance the probative value versus prejudicial effect, it absolutely should come in.

00:19:58.860 Arthur, if you know, we looked for this manhunt, Megan, and this was the question I had so that you saw all these police officers and they're they're risking their lives with alligators and snakes in this horrible area.

00:20:10.320 If they found him, could they have arrested him?

00:20:12.600 Because I haven't heard that they could have if they found him.

00:20:15.000 Were they allowed to put handcuffs on him or were they then just allowed to kind of track him when he was in public spaces?

00:20:19.480 I have not heard that there is an arrest warrant.

00:20:22.820 There is an FBI warrant out out out for his arrest.

00:20:26.400 So the question you asked, Megan, about whether it's admissible or not, that's really in the discretion of the trial judge making the analysis that Mark just did.

00:20:35.780 Does the probative value outweigh the prejudicial value?

00:20:38.840 Because obviously it's prejudicial and every judge may look at that a little differently depending on who that judge is.

00:20:44.860 Hmm. I mean, I predict if they find him that it both both of those things come in.

00:20:49.740 But, you know, making the case, we'll talk about circumstantial.

00:20:53.540 Like you say, Arthur, unless there's his skin underneath her nails or something on her body that directly ties violence to him, not just a relationship.

00:21:02.880 Right now, this does not look like anything close to an open and shut case against him.

00:21:07.460 So we'll see.

00:21:09.140 There was one case, Megan, I just want to say real quick, there was one case that was around in Brooklyn where they did convict the guy.

00:21:15.240 And the only thing they had was the deceased, a little tiny piece of the deceased DNA in the trunk of the defendant's car.

00:21:24.460 They never found the defendant's body.

00:21:26.680 There never was a cause of death.

00:21:28.360 But it was an absolute stranger.

00:21:30.720 And why would this individual's DNA be in this defendant's trunk?

00:21:35.460 Okay, but that's absolute stranger.

00:21:37.320 That's absolute stranger, right?

00:21:38.660 Correct.

00:21:39.200 His DNA could be all over her.

00:21:41.360 Under the fingernails is a little tougher to explain.

00:21:43.900 But, you know, they were boyfriend and girlfriend.

00:21:45.920 They were sharing this van together as their home.

00:21:48.700 We don't know what we're looking at yet.

00:21:50.140 It's just, to me, one of the troubling things is it's not open and shut as a legal matter, even though my feeling is I wish it were.

00:21:57.940 It may get there as the evidence continues to come out in the coming days.

00:22:01.820 All right.

00:22:01.980 My guests today are lawyers Arthur Idala and Mark Iglarshan.

00:22:04.580 We have so many cases to go over.

00:22:06.000 Up next, we're going to discuss the ongoing trial right now of Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes.

00:22:11.060 The jurors just heard testimony from retired four-star General James Mattis, our former secretary of defense,

00:22:16.580 what he had to say on the stand, and what it means for Elizabeth Holmes' defense that, quote,

00:22:22.380 failure is not a crime.

00:22:24.980 Don't go away.

00:22:31.500 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:22:33.200 I'm joined today by my favorite legal eagles.

00:22:35.720 Mark Iglarshan is a former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney.

00:22:38.860 Arthur Idala is a trial attorney.

00:22:41.120 He has been a prosecutor.

00:22:42.400 He's been a criminal defense attorney as well.

00:22:43.700 And now he's managing partner.

00:22:45.180 He's super important at Idala, Bertuna, and Caymans.

00:22:49.100 Up next on the Kelly's Court docket, the trial of Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes,

00:22:54.840 or as I like to call her, Elizabeth Holmes.

00:23:00.340 So she started this company, Theranos, which was supposed to.

00:23:05.340 She dropped out of Stanford at age 19, this whippersnapper.

00:23:08.380 She was going to be the female Steve Jobs.

00:23:10.080 She was going to change, revolutionize, pulling out blood from your arm to, you know, the nasty vial where they have to stick the needle all the way into just a pinprick on the edge of your, you know, index finger.

00:23:21.120 One drop of blood.

00:23:22.580 And they could do all these tests, up to 200 tests, she alleged, to both investors and customers alike.

00:23:28.480 Only problem is, it wasn't true.

00:23:31.160 It was never true.

00:23:32.100 They got there.

00:23:33.480 They never got there.

00:23:34.760 And she had investors from Rupert Murdoch, Betsy DeVos, the Walton family of Walmart.

00:23:38.920 Even Mattis, who joined her board, invested 85,000 bucks of his own personal money.

00:23:45.440 All these people believed that she was this amazing, you know, Steve Jobs type character and put money in her company, which was valued at 9 billion at its peak.

00:23:55.940 And it fell completely flat.

00:23:58.460 And the question, and by the way, her little invention, Edison, that was like the box that would process your blood.

00:24:05.260 This thing was in Walgreens.

00:24:07.140 It was in some like 30 or 40 Walgreens.

00:24:09.060 I mean, like she was getting mainstream play on her products and her business.

00:24:13.600 And she was on the cover of Forbes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:24:16.920 It's a big deal if this was all a fraud from the beginning and a knowing fraud.

00:24:21.020 And that's the question in what's now a criminal trial.

00:24:24.500 It's a criminal fraud trial being brought against her by, well, I mean, against her.

00:24:31.960 And then in about a year, I guess, against her, the guy who was president of her company and COO, who was also her lover, Sunny Balwani.

00:24:41.400 Now, interesting defense.

00:24:43.440 She seems to be going with battered women's syndrome, which you tell me.

00:24:47.540 I mean, I understand that makes you like shoot the person abusing you.

00:24:51.920 So I don't I've never heard it used.

00:24:54.540 It made me commit a fraud on the secretary of defense.

00:24:58.340 I think I don't this is an unusual use of it.

00:25:01.740 But I'll start with you on this one.

00:25:03.940 Arthur's that good.

00:25:04.780 He can pull that off.

00:25:05.740 Arthur could pull that off, but they didn't hire Arthur.

00:25:07.820 I've actually been involved with those cases as a prosecutor and his defense attorney.

00:25:11.080 And yes, Megan, you accurately stated about a woman's syndrome.

00:25:14.280 All that does is minimize a murder to a lesser charge that still carries a significant penalty.

00:25:19.980 But it's because she was so and the case I'll brag for a second.

00:25:23.280 I changed the law that it's no longer battered women's syndrome.

00:25:25.800 It's battered person syndrome because I had a gay man who killed his gay lover.

00:25:30.060 And it was the first time in the United States of America I used battered person syndrome.

00:25:34.280 And in fact, you know, he got a much favorable result.

00:25:36.740 But it doesn't, as you said, it doesn't mean that you could go off the deep end and really

00:25:40.720 create some invention that, you know, doesn't work.

00:25:43.980 I could say, well, it would be great if I took this pill in the morning and everyone

00:25:46.660 could grow hair.

00:25:47.580 And I asked Rupert Murdoch for $125 million because I tell him it works and it doesn't

00:25:52.360 work.

00:25:52.720 And that's the bottom line here.

00:25:53.840 She had a great idea.

00:25:55.720 It would be wonderful if you're in a military plane and you could prick an officer's finger

00:26:02.160 and in minutes find out if he's got cancer or if he has all these other diseases.

00:26:07.160 Yeah, that would be spectacular.

00:26:08.640 And that's what she sold.

00:26:09.740 And it never happened.

00:26:10.900 And it's a fraud.

00:26:11.940 And it's the textbook definition of a fraud.

00:26:14.580 And she's got big problems coming.

00:26:16.360 A battered women's syndrome doesn't justify a crime spree.

00:26:19.980 No, but give them more credit.

00:26:21.580 Hold on, you two.

00:26:22.880 First of all, let's make a few assumptions.

00:26:24.880 She's got probably really good lawyers on her side.

00:26:27.860 And I know then that they wouldn't walk in and say she was battered and thus she's justified

00:26:32.020 in committing fraud.

00:26:33.000 You know there's more to it.

00:26:34.220 So let's give them more credit.

00:26:35.660 They say it affected her judgment.

00:26:37.840 That's what they said, her judgment.

00:26:39.080 Yeah, let's keep going.

00:26:40.300 In fact, this judge made an unusual move, even though they're both charged together,

00:26:44.320 to separate out her from her ex-boyfriend.

00:26:49.160 Well, because he had to.

00:26:50.380 He had to grant the severance.

00:26:52.200 Of course.

00:26:53.160 Another prosecutor in the room against her.

00:26:55.060 Of course.

00:26:56.120 It was the right move.

00:26:57.120 But let me keep going with what the theory is because you guys are minimizing the defense.

00:27:00.800 She's going to say not only was she battered by her ex-boyfriend, but that was part of the

00:27:06.500 reason why she was misled.

00:27:08.980 She believed in good faith that this product was going to work.

00:27:13.020 And that guy over there prevented me from seeing everything.

00:27:16.580 Again, it was a cycle.

00:27:18.180 It wasn't just preventing me from hearing the facts, but he was abusing me at the time.

00:27:22.740 I think that she's got a better argument to make.

00:27:24.860 And by the way, it bothered me tremendously because my daughter, she's turning 18,

00:27:31.440 deathly afraid of shots.

00:27:32.880 So I said, wow, I hope this is real because a little prick to the finger would certainly

00:27:38.500 serve my daughter better.

00:27:39.680 And boy, it was too good to be true.

00:27:41.300 Well, apparently Elizabeth Holmes was deathly afraid of needles, too.

00:27:44.320 This is one of the reasons why she got focused on this.

00:27:46.820 And sure, it would have been amazing.

00:27:48.160 And she dazzled all these older guys, our former Secretary of State George Schultz was

00:27:53.060 on the board and James Mattis and Arthur.

00:27:55.460 What the prosecution is alleging is there's a reason she had all these military guys on

00:27:59.760 the board instead of medical people, right?

00:28:02.760 Because like they don't know anything about medicine.

00:28:05.420 Right.

00:28:05.640 And she was and she was look, she was a master marketer.

00:28:09.460 There's no doubt about that.

00:28:10.700 And one of her big angles was besides civilians walking into Walmart and getting results instantly,

00:28:17.140 it was all about the military.

00:28:19.520 Oh, you know, we'll be able to carry this little Thomas Edison box onto planes and onto

00:28:24.360 mass units and get immediate results for the military.

00:28:27.460 And that never happened.

00:28:28.920 In her deposition, she's asked, did that ever take place?

00:28:32.940 No, but she sold it like we sold it like it was going to take place.

00:28:37.140 Yes, she she told investors something very different.

00:28:39.880 And John Kerry, you who broke the story wide open, he's really the reason her whole company

00:28:44.080 started falling apart.

00:28:45.500 He's of the Wall Street Journal.

00:28:46.620 He did the book, Bad Blood, which became a podcast, which I recommend to everybody.

00:28:50.960 But anyway, he talked about that, too, about how one of her big selling points was to say,

00:28:56.060 oh, the military is using Edison and my products.

00:28:58.880 And, you know, you hear the military is using it.

00:29:00.500 You're like, oh, wow, that's actually pretty good.

00:29:02.260 If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

00:29:03.840 And here she is in her deposition admitting the truth.

00:29:07.180 Listen.

00:29:07.620 How many tests could it run at that time in 2010?

00:29:11.560 I don't know exactly what the number was.

00:29:17.240 There was probably tens of tests.

00:29:23.700 So when you say tens of tests, you mean something less than 100?

00:29:26.580 Yes.

00:29:26.880 Was Theranos' technology deployed in emergency rooms, hospitals, and provider offices?

00:29:34.680 No.

00:29:35.660 Was a Theranos manufacturer device ever deployed in the battlefield?

00:29:42.440 No.

00:29:43.400 Was it ever deployed in a medevac helicopter?

00:29:47.060 No.

00:29:47.240 Mark, that's not good.

00:29:51.400 No, but here's, listen.

00:29:53.120 You ready?

00:29:53.940 The key for me in this case is what do the emails show?

00:29:58.740 The same way it's in the Gabby Petito case, what does the body show?

00:30:03.160 In this case, what are the emails?

00:30:04.860 There's got to be thousands of emails, which they've obtained,

00:30:08.660 where it'll either show when somebody's saying,

00:30:11.080 hey, this isn't working the way it's supposed to.

00:30:13.100 You know, what's her response?

00:30:14.720 She doesn't know anything about the science, right?

00:30:16.980 She was born and raised.

00:30:17.860 She didn't have a language.

00:30:18.680 She was given a language.

00:30:19.540 She learned a little bit about some things over the years in her life.

00:30:22.560 She's not an expert.

00:30:23.800 So she's being told certain things.

00:30:25.460 What do the emails show?

00:30:27.660 Well, that's the thing, Arthur.

00:30:29.000 Let me tee this up for you, because here's what they're already starting to say.

00:30:33.960 How is what she did any different than what any entrepreneur in Silicon Valley does,

00:30:39.060 where they overstate, you know, it's puffery, right?

00:30:41.980 Like, yeah, we're amazing.

00:30:43.580 Yeah, we're totally going to revolutionize the world.

00:30:45.840 Give me your money.

00:30:47.520 How is it different?

00:30:49.180 There's because there's this invisible line that we all cross or don't cross in so many

00:30:55.100 areas, especially of the law.

00:30:56.940 But Mark, when you say she's not an expert in this, you have to become an expert in this

00:31:01.500 if this is your life.

00:31:02.920 And au contraire, she prided herself on she only kept bottled water in her refrigerator.

00:31:08.540 She slept four hours a night and she wore the same thing.

00:31:11.560 And they asked her, what's your favorite place to go to?

00:31:13.520 She's like, my office.

00:31:15.060 Oh, so all she's she held herself out.

00:31:18.200 Definitely, definitely as an expert in this.

00:31:20.820 And as her expertise after putting together her medical team, she's now telling these billionaire

00:31:26.240 old men, look, I have basically figured out how what was her line, Megan?

00:31:31.460 She's like, not to let people leave too soon.

00:31:34.540 That was her thing.

00:31:35.580 And here's the question.

00:31:36.960 Yeah, I know that's what she's saying.

00:31:38.800 But garbage in, garbage out.

00:31:40.200 What is she being told?

00:31:42.100 What's she being told?

00:31:43.120 She's the CEO.

00:31:44.200 She's the boss.

00:31:45.300 She's CEO.

00:31:46.060 The buck stops there.

00:31:47.760 Sorry, the CEO.

00:31:48.640 I apologize.

00:31:49.240 She's on.

00:31:49.980 So you mean to tell me, hold on.

00:31:52.000 Let's say I start some type of business.

00:31:54.580 I get experts around me, right?

00:31:56.840 They're telling me something that they created, that we've created, does X, Y, and Z.

00:32:02.180 I, as the CEO, puffing what they do, bringing us some real money.

00:32:07.240 I say, this is what it does.

00:32:08.720 Turns out it doesn't do that.

00:32:09.940 There's a difference between civil liability and criminal liability.

00:32:13.140 That's why I say I want to see the smoking gun evidence.

00:32:16.540 Here's the smoking gun.

00:32:17.720 The smoking gun is when they started doing the tests, when they were testing our tests.

00:32:21.780 In regular labs, the results were wrong.

00:32:24.620 So once that happens, you have to immediately alert the shareholders, immediately alert your

00:32:29.560 board of directors, and immediately fix the problem.

00:32:32.520 These are people's lives that we're talking about here.

00:32:35.260 Do you have AIDS?

00:32:36.240 Don't you have AIDS?

00:32:37.080 Do you have cancer?

00:32:38.180 Don't you have cancer?

00:32:38.960 You have to immediately pull the plug.

00:32:40.820 And that's where it goes from being civil to criminal, because she didn't do that.

00:32:44.100 Because this is what we're seeing so far with the prosecution is they're on to this

00:32:48.020 possibility, Mark, that she's going to say, I know nothing.

00:32:50.600 You know, Colonel Schultz, Colonel Sargent, I know nothing.

00:32:55.440 And so they're trying to introduce evidence that these problems were widespread and that

00:32:59.380 people within the company were raising them or jumping up and down, trying to raise them.

00:33:03.040 And they've put on a young woman who is described as a as a whistleblower who worked in sort of

00:33:09.580 the let's say Erica Chung.

00:33:11.160 She's one of the people called by the U.S.

00:33:13.300 attorney.

00:33:13.740 She said she got hired.

00:33:16.640 She left the company a year and a half later.

00:33:18.160 She resigned because she didn't think the company's technology was ready to process patient

00:33:21.280 samples.

00:33:22.120 I was uncomfortable doing that.

00:33:23.880 She testified about a nearly eighteen hundred word letter she wrote to the Centers for

00:33:27.560 Medicare and Medicaid Services trying to sound the alarm on this.

00:33:30.640 She said Theranos ignored the standards for staff credentials.

00:33:33.380 They frequently used expired lab samples.

00:33:35.880 Their testing devices had major stability, precision and accuracy problems and so on.

00:33:39.780 Then you've got, hold on a second, blah, blah, blah, because I think she actually talked

00:33:45.940 about raising it internally, too.

00:33:48.360 Oh, yeah.

00:33:50.700 Sarika Gangahedkar, forgive me.

00:33:54.380 I'm sure I butchered that, but I tried.

00:33:56.500 She took the stand, alleged Elizabeth Holmes knew that the Walgreens rollout was premature.

00:34:01.280 This is a former Theranos chemist of eight years, said Holmes pressured the staff to make

00:34:07.080 the Walgreens rollout happen anyway, even though she knew it wasn't ready.

00:34:10.900 And then they put on a nurse practitioner who talked about how, in one example, the bad

00:34:20.400 Theranos testing led the nurse practitioner to believe one of her patients, Brittany Gold,

00:34:25.200 who also testified, was miscarrying her pregnancy, that they had a serious talk about how to finish

00:34:31.500 the termination so that the mother would be OK, would remain healthy, believing that her

00:34:38.380 baby had already died inside of her and offering medication to sort of finish off what was she

00:34:44.720 believed already a miscarriage.

00:34:46.660 And it wasn't true.

00:34:48.440 And the woman took the stand.

00:34:49.780 Brittany Gold said, oh, my God, thank God that this nurse practitioner recommended another

00:34:54.420 test someplace else because it turned out my pregnancy was fine.

00:34:57.240 I went on to have a baby girl.

00:34:59.140 I mean, Mark, if that's not criminal, if that's not criminal.

00:35:02.140 Easy, you are third.

00:35:04.060 Let me just say this.

00:35:05.240 All that's problematic.

00:35:06.160 And I'm not saying she's innocent.

00:35:07.940 I'm simply saying that you guys are overlooking the fact that she's going to say that any concerns

00:35:15.200 that she had with anything they were doing, she ran by her ex-boyfriend, you know, the one

00:35:20.560 who was also indicted, who's also awaiting trial.

00:35:23.560 And he told me X, Y, and Z.

00:35:25.260 In fact, every time I raised some of these issues, he gave me an answer and then he gave

00:35:30.020 me a backhand as well.

00:35:32.100 If she's a CEO and he's her COO who answers to her, how does it excuse it that the man

00:35:38.320 I hired and relied upon for information, but I hired him, I mean, I put him in that role,

00:35:43.640 gave me bad information?

00:35:45.120 So let me support brother Mark over here.

00:35:48.180 Yeah.

00:35:48.400 Because reading excerpts of the opening statement of the defense, I think Mark is following what

00:35:54.520 their, what their roadmap is.

00:35:56.100 And it's almost a form of jury nullification.

00:35:58.900 It's like sunny, sunny, sunny.

00:36:01.360 That's where you tie in the, the battered woman syndrome.

00:36:04.080 He says she worked hard.

00:36:06.120 She worked tirelessly.

00:36:07.300 She didn't take any money.

00:36:08.620 There were times when she could have cashed out and became a billionaire.

00:36:11.240 She didn't do that.

00:36:12.040 She stayed with the ship as it was going down.

00:36:14.560 And while that was happening, this guy was beating the heck out of her and controlling

00:36:18.600 her and doing all these things.

00:36:20.100 And basically, and I've done it successfully at trial, even though she's guilty, cut her

00:36:24.480 a break, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, because she's not a bad, evil person.

00:36:28.420 And the other piece of that, I agree with you.

00:36:30.760 That's where they're going.

00:36:31.840 And I do think it's helpful to her side that they've been arguing on the defense side.

00:36:36.540 She had so many opportunities to sell this thing for millions and millions of dollars

00:36:39.660 and she didn't.

00:36:40.860 Right.

00:36:40.980 So if you're just in it to commit a fraud, you know, that you would have gotten out while

00:36:44.540 the getting was good.

00:36:45.240 But you could also argue that she knew as soon as somebody else took over that they'd

00:36:48.680 see the jig was up and then come after her and sue her.

00:36:52.240 So I, I get all that.

00:36:53.860 But I do think that a state of mind is going to be important, important, whether she knew

00:36:58.540 is going to be important.

00:36:59.540 And the more they play up this sort of abuse factor that her, she wasn't of right mind.

00:37:04.240 She was not herself.

00:37:05.200 She couldn't form accurate judgments, maybe could have an effect.

00:37:08.660 The second thing is they're going to demon, demonize the investors because already we've

00:37:13.680 heard they were billionaires.

00:37:15.500 They were sophisticated.

00:37:17.320 Who the hell could defraud Rupert Murdoch?

00:37:19.840 You know, like he's he.

00:37:20.860 This isn't some.

00:37:21.680 Who is that?

00:37:22.300 Who is that?

00:37:22.900 Who's Rupert Murdoch?

00:37:23.520 This isn't some rube from the middle of nowhere who's never, you know, who's doing like a

00:37:27.980 day trade.

00:37:28.840 He knows what he's doing.

00:37:30.420 So they're trying to nullify, I think, on a couple of points.

00:37:32.760 All right.

00:37:33.100 Much more, because right after this break, we're going to play the soundbite of Elizabeth

00:37:37.620 Holmes is changing voice, which you've got to hear.

00:37:40.660 And then later we're going to talk to the panel about Don Lemon and his upcoming case,

00:37:45.460 the case against him by a man who accuses him of sexual assault.

00:37:49.300 Don't go away.

00:37:50.160 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show, everyone.

00:37:57.200 I'm joined today by Mark Eiglarsh, and he's a former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney.

00:38:02.220 Also with us is Arthur Idala.

00:38:04.220 Same resume and also now a trial attorney managing partner at Idala, Pertuna and Caymans.

00:38:09.720 All right.

00:38:09.980 So the thing about Elizabeth is the prosecution is going to paint her as a lifelong fraud, as

00:38:17.300 somebody who, yes, she was she looked the part.

00:38:20.920 She wore the black sweater every day to look like Steve Jobs, quote, so she didn't have

00:38:24.740 to think about wardrobe, the messy bun every day, this image of not sleeping, as you point

00:38:29.700 out, Arthur, and just water.

00:38:31.240 OK, sure.

00:38:31.860 And one of the things that's come out in the many documentaries about her and the podcast

00:38:37.620 about her is even her voice is allegedly fake low.

00:38:43.320 It's not the real low.

00:38:44.660 It's the fake low.

00:38:46.280 And here is exhibit A.

00:38:48.340 This is via an ABC News special report called The Dropout, which I recommend everybody.

00:38:53.220 Listen, watch.

00:38:53.700 But Anna says Elizabeth's transformation didn't end there.

00:38:57.580 Her voice.

00:38:58.420 What she could figure out.

00:38:59.860 A surprising baritone.

00:39:01.460 Was that it would likely cost her a few thousand dollars to get these tests done.

00:39:05.800 Was fake, according to Anna.

00:39:08.320 We didn't know that it wasn't her voice until much later.

00:39:11.480 I think it was at one of the company parties and maybe she had a little bit too much to

00:39:14.740 drink or whatnot.

00:39:15.780 But she fell out of character and exposed that that wasn't necessarily her true voice.

00:39:20.820 In this interview with NPR from 2005, we hear a very different sounding Elizabeth.

00:39:27.820 No, it hasn't.

00:39:28.780 Well, if I use traditional words to describe what we're doing, it's hard.

00:39:33.820 Ah, come on.

00:39:36.720 She's faking.

00:39:37.100 You hate that, Megan.

00:39:38.200 You hate that.

00:39:39.460 You know what it reminded me of?

00:39:41.700 It reminded me of your holiday party where Mark and I got a little crazy on the stage.

00:39:45.500 That's what that reminded me of.

00:39:46.520 It reminded me of Charlize Theron playing me.

00:39:50.820 Oh, it is.

00:39:52.520 She did a fake low voice.

00:39:55.200 Whereas I can go high.

00:39:56.700 I can be like almost so sopranic.

00:40:00.040 Yeah.

00:40:00.580 I mean, this whole thing.

00:40:01.580 Operatic in my soprano.

00:40:02.480 The dress, the voice.

00:40:04.200 I mean, it's leading to, you don't know, because mental disease or defect defense.

00:40:10.720 I mean, first of all, you know the effort it must take to go around talking all the time

00:40:15.860 in a different voice?

00:40:17.300 I mean, it can't be something, it can't be a very easy feat to accomplish.

00:40:22.140 And it just goes into somebody's really, their mindset as to how they're going to conduct

00:40:27.320 themselves.

00:40:27.740 There's one thing to look at Steve Jobs as a role model, right?

00:40:30.040 There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

00:40:31.940 It's another thing to really change who you are to become someone else.

00:40:35.940 And what is that is?

00:40:36.660 That's part of the definition of fraud, of perpetrating a fraud.

00:40:40.220 You know the difference between Elizabeth Holmes and Steve Jobs?

00:40:42.520 Steve Jobs got it done.

00:40:44.220 I was on Larry the Cable Guy earlier on his show.

00:40:47.540 He got her done.

00:40:48.760 She didn't get her done.

00:40:50.100 She had no meaningful product.

00:40:52.340 She lied and said she had 200 tests that this little box could do.

00:40:54.900 In reality, it could only do 12.

00:40:56.540 People's health care was in danger.

00:40:58.360 Plus, she had tons of time.

00:40:59.960 I think she started the company in 2003.

00:41:02.480 This went on for 15 plus years.

00:41:05.540 It wasn't going to happen, Mark.

00:41:07.280 She never came to terms with it.

00:41:09.000 She continued to lie to get investments and to push it out to products and middle America,

00:41:14.620 innocent victims through Walgreens and other means.

00:41:18.620 OK, and if the defense has a chance of prevailing, they start off and they say the government's

00:41:22.720 right.

00:41:23.580 Ultimately, the product didn't work.

00:41:26.280 And so we don't have to focus on that.

00:41:28.520 The issue is, what did she know?

00:41:31.740 Yeah, they're saying failure is not criminal.

00:41:33.780 Hold on.

00:41:34.800 Fraud versus failure.

00:41:36.360 This is just failure.

00:41:37.700 It failed to work.

00:41:38.820 It wasn't fraud.

00:41:40.080 And here's why.

00:41:41.320 And again, that's what they're going to focus on.

00:41:44.160 So how long could she go away for, Arthur, if she gets convicted?

00:41:47.820 Oh, I mean, you wanted to talk reality or by the law?

00:41:52.640 By the letter to the law, I think it's 20 years.

00:41:54.880 I don't think she's going to get 20 years here.

00:41:57.180 It's going to...

00:41:57.720 A lot of it depends when you do the federal guidelines calculation.

00:42:00.520 A lot of it depends on the loss amount, how many people lost how much money.

00:42:05.560 And that weighs very, very heavily into the judge's calculation of where she would fall

00:42:13.000 in the federal sentencing guidelines.

00:42:14.920 And that will be part of the prosecutor's evidence.

00:42:17.760 It'll be part of what they put on, which is who lost how much money.

00:42:22.660 And they have to connect it to her fraud.

00:42:26.320 And that's why they lost all the money.

00:42:27.760 But we're talking about a lot, a lot of money.

00:42:30.320 And it doesn't matter if it's from people who are already billionaires, which is what

00:42:34.820 the defense attorney said in his opening statement.

00:42:36.440 Well, the people who lost money, they're already billionaires.

00:42:39.220 Well, you know what?

00:42:39.840 I'm sure the billionaires weren't happy to lose $125 million, $150 million.

00:42:45.400 You're not allowed to defraud billionaires.

00:42:47.060 There's not some special exception to the fraud rules.

00:42:49.880 Can I just round back to the Gabby Petito case?

00:42:52.780 Because my team's just telling me that a headline just dropped that Adam Moab, Utah, they're now

00:42:57.640 launching an investigation into those cops whose video we just watched, the body cam,

00:43:02.380 you know, where they stopped them.

00:43:04.000 They're launching an investigation into them to see whether they handled it correctly.

00:43:08.220 I mean, hindsight is 20, 20.

00:43:09.860 I will defend them for free.

00:43:11.000 I will defend them for free.

00:43:12.640 At first, they were following the letter of the law, like, technically, she put her hands

00:43:17.400 on him.

00:43:18.380 And so now we're going to arrest her.

00:43:19.880 Which meant they would have blemished her record for the rest of her life because you

00:43:23.500 can't seal or expunge those domestic violence cases unless they're dropped.

00:43:28.340 And they're really going to ruin her life.

00:43:30.260 Ultimately, they didn't need to arrest her.

00:43:32.740 They did the right thing.

00:43:33.820 I watched an hour and 17 minutes of that body cam footage, and I will defend them for free.

00:43:38.640 Mark, just explain why you're talking about they should have arrested her as opposed to

00:43:42.760 him when what the cops had been told prior to arriving there is that he had been hitting

00:43:48.840 her.

00:43:49.440 And then ultimately, they conducted their own back and forth between her and him.

00:43:54.060 And one cop apparently had some history that he utilized to relate to this guy.

00:43:58.940 And with what they knew at the time, they treated them both fairly.

00:44:04.280 In fact, I kept wondering, don't they have any crime in that town?

00:44:06.860 It was amazing how much time they gave back and forth.

00:44:10.500 They didn't make any quick decisions.

00:44:11.900 So but the thing is, she tried to take the blame.

00:44:14.240 She tried to say, oh, it was me.

00:44:15.600 Oh, you know, I instigated it.

00:44:16.880 But that's what that on the subject of actual battered women.

00:44:21.140 I mean, I don't know what Elizabeth Holmes, what happened with her and this guy.

00:44:23.760 So I don't know.

00:44:24.680 But I don't think it excuses her alleged fraud.

00:44:28.000 But when it comes to battered women, they do tend to take the blame.

00:44:31.400 An abused woman tends to make excuses time and time again, especially when the cops get

00:44:35.020 involved.

00:44:35.620 They don't want to see the abuser get arrested, especially when they're vulnerable.

00:44:38.720 She like she's she's relying on him.

00:44:40.660 They're in the middle of nowhere.

00:44:41.600 She's exactly on the other side of America from her family.

00:44:45.580 She's dependent on him.

00:44:46.820 And one of her biggest fears and the reason why they made him sleep in the hotel and her stay

00:44:50.960 in the van was because he was going to leave with the van and he was going to abandon her.

00:44:55.500 So, I mean, you have to say, I mean, I'm with Mark on this.

00:44:58.460 Mark, I'll join you on the legal team.

00:45:00.060 I don't see the cops doing anything wrong here.

00:45:02.220 All right.

00:45:02.520 But let me let me play devil's advocate.

00:45:04.280 I'll play devil's advocate and say, let's back up to before the cops got on the scene

00:45:07.760 and take a listen to the actual 9-1-1 call that led the cops to find Gabby and Brian.

00:45:13.300 And here's what they heard.

00:45:14.600 Listen, we're driving by and I'd like to report a domestic dispute to Florida with the white

00:45:18.820 van, Florida license plate, white land, gentlemen, five, six years.

00:45:24.540 They just drove off.

00:45:25.820 They're going down Main Street.

00:45:27.400 They made a right onto Main Street.

00:45:29.780 What were they doing?

00:45:31.940 We drove by and the gentleman was slapping the girl.

00:45:34.880 He was slapping her?

00:45:36.100 Yes.

00:45:36.400 And then we stopped.

00:45:37.460 They ran up and down the sidewalk.

00:45:38.980 He proceeded to hit her, hopped in the car, and they drove off.

00:45:43.720 Hmm.

00:45:44.980 Hmm.

00:45:45.720 Well, okay.

00:45:47.000 Yeah, it sounds bad.

00:45:47.900 The question is, number one, did the cops at the scene hear the 9-1-1 call?

00:45:52.020 I'm not sure that they did.

00:45:53.360 I think they're getting relayed information of a domestic dispute and they're there to

00:45:58.920 settle what really happened.

00:46:01.020 There's a difference between, as we know, in eyewitness testimony, believability versus

00:46:06.180 accuracy.

00:46:07.340 Someone could say, oh, this one was slapping this one.

00:46:10.220 Cops know that that's not always very accurate.

00:46:12.260 So they're there to discern what's the truth and what's not the truth.

00:46:15.860 And I watched them for over 70 minutes go back and forth and back and forth.

00:46:21.320 And ultimately, they separated them without arrest.

00:46:24.220 Hindsight's 20-20.

00:46:25.380 And what they're saying.

00:46:26.280 Okay, wait, no, no.

00:46:26.860 Here's the official statement.

00:46:28.000 Let me stand you by there because we're coming up against our only hard break.

00:46:30.940 We have one in each hour.

00:46:32.220 We're going to pick it up, though, in two minutes.

00:46:34.000 On the other side, where we'll talk about Don Lemon's sexual assault case against him and

00:46:37.720 Britney Spears.

00:46:38.880 Don't go away.

00:46:39.520 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show, everyone.

00:46:46.880 I'm joined today by Mark Eiglarsh and Arthur Aydala, my legal dream team, former prosecutors,

00:46:53.100 criminal defense attorneys.

00:46:54.420 And Arthur is a now managing partner at Aydala, Bertuna and Caymans.

00:46:58.660 In 20 minutes, we'd love to know your verdict on the cases we discussed.

00:47:02.220 Would you turn your child over to the FBI if they got wrapped up in something horrible like

00:47:06.380 this?

00:47:06.940 Or would you help save them?

00:47:08.760 Would you do what these parents allegedly did, which is lie to the cops, the police,

00:47:13.100 hide your kid?

00:47:14.740 Call me 833-44-MEGAN, M-E-G-Y-N.

00:47:17.940 That's 833-44-634-9-6.

00:47:20.820 Up now on the docket, Don Lemon, our moral arbiter who's trying to tell us what bad people

00:47:26.240 we are night after night, is, I say, credibly accused of sexual assault.

00:47:32.480 This is not your average variety, you know, case against a celebrity where there's no witness,

00:47:38.180 there's no, right?

00:47:39.180 Like, this guy's got a witness who's brought this case against him, which I think makes

00:47:44.040 this worthy of serious thought and consideration.

00:47:47.300 The accuser's name is Dustin Heiss.

00:47:48.840 He's 38 years old.

00:47:49.880 He's a bartender at a pub in the Hamptons.

00:47:51.780 The incident happened on July 15th, 2018.

00:47:54.820 It, I believe, is undisputed that Mr. Heiss, Dustin Heiss, went to Murph's Backstreet Tavern

00:48:02.600 in Sag Harbor in the Hamptons.

00:48:04.140 He saw and recognized Don Lemon.

00:48:05.960 He said, hey, Don, let me buy you a drink.

00:48:08.320 He then turned to Nick, the bartender, and said, hey, Nick, get me two lemon drops.

00:48:13.600 Ha ha.

00:48:14.100 Get it?

00:48:14.620 Lemon drops.

00:48:15.760 It's like how people get me the Kelly green t-shirt.

00:48:18.380 Don apparently at first didn't want anything to do with it, looked at him and said, I'm

00:48:22.700 just trying to have a good time, man.

00:48:23.780 It kind of blew him off.

00:48:25.960 Dustin Heiss says, I am not gay.

00:48:28.520 I was not hitting on him.

00:48:29.720 I'm a heterosexual male.

00:48:31.040 But he took offense to it, took it as me flirting.

00:48:33.900 This is all Dustin to foxnews.com.

00:48:35.900 We've got an interview with him.

00:48:37.980 Lemon allegedly approached Dustin Heiss, according to Dustin, a short time later.

00:48:43.040 And this is what Heiss says happened.

00:48:44.560 Quote, about five or 10 minutes later, Don gets up, walks around the bar, comes right

00:48:48.440 up to me, puts his hand down his board shorts.

00:48:51.940 He rubs himself aggressively, his penis, and quote, whatever else is down there.

00:48:58.840 According to the lawsuit, Lemon put his hands down the front of his own shorts and vigorously

00:49:04.720 rubbed his genitalia, removed his hand, then shoved his index and middle fingers into

00:49:10.260 the plaintiff's mustache and under the plaintiff's nose.

00:49:14.700 Lemon then allegedly asked a crude question about Heiss's sexual preferences, saying,

00:49:19.000 do you like, I don't say the P word, but the P word or the D word, and then repeatedly

00:49:24.480 kept saying, P or D, P or D.

00:49:26.620 He said it like three or four times, according to the plaintiff, who says, I was like, whoa,

00:49:30.560 man, what the hell?

00:49:31.980 He says he was left shocked and humiliated, was traumatized, fled the bar, said it was vile,

00:49:37.780 it was disgusting, it was humiliating, it was inhumane, and has an eyewitness.

00:49:44.040 Named George Gunelis, who managed Dustin Heiss at another bar, saw the whole thing, and says,

00:49:51.160 at first I thought it was like funny, I was making fun of him, and then I realized the

00:49:55.480 guy was genuinely traumatized and that this is bullshit.

00:49:59.040 This is, now, Don Lemon's denied all of it.

00:50:01.040 I want to be fair to him, even though I don't like him.

00:50:02.900 Totally denied, vigorously denied all of it, said it never happened, said this guy's trying

00:50:08.500 to do a shakedown for Doe against him.

00:50:11.800 So you guys tell me, because you handle civil cases as well, that's what this is, not criminal.

00:50:16.680 What do you think is going on here, Mark?

00:50:19.260 Okay, so the first thing was, wow, this is really detailed, right?

00:50:23.480 When it's that detailed and that unusual, it tends to suggest that it might have happened.

00:50:29.200 That said, I don't know.

00:50:31.540 I mean, the guy backing him up is not an independent witness.

00:50:34.060 It's his boss, you know.

00:50:35.820 So I'm wondering, really, if this even did happen, his claim for over a million dollars

00:50:43.020 seems like a bit of a money grab.

00:50:45.900 If it really did happen, what is the dollar value on that?

00:50:49.400 Which is a separate issue, but it goes back to the first one.

00:50:52.740 When you start demanding, oh, my life is horrible, I'm depressed as a result,

00:50:56.300 I start to question the whole thing.

00:50:59.280 Mm-hmm, okay, because the reports are that his lawyers made a demand of $1.5 million

00:51:06.060 in exchange for not filing the lawsuit, not going public with the lawsuit,

00:51:10.100 and that they were allegedly offered by Lemon and his team six figures, but that wasn't enough.

00:51:16.320 I mean, six figures for something like that, that's nuisance value.

00:51:18.380 You pay him $100,000, that's like, go away, just to spare me the public embarrassment.

00:51:22.600 But they weren't going to pay $1.5 million, and no jury would order that.

00:51:26.200 Arthur would be a billionaire if he got paid every time someone did stuff like that

00:51:29.120 to him, come on.

00:51:31.280 I think Mark's done that to you on this show.

00:51:33.120 What?

00:51:33.440 No.

00:51:34.160 Exactly.

00:51:34.960 I mean, here's the truth, and I know Mark will agree with me, and I'm being very serious.

00:51:40.160 If you eliminate alcohol and nowadays OxyContin from the world, Mark and I,

00:51:46.080 a huge percentage of our business would disappear.

00:51:49.380 Because when people, when alcohol is involved, and now unfortunately OxyContin,

00:51:54.560 people's judgment goes out the window.

00:51:56.140 So I have firmly adopted the phrase, never say never.

00:52:01.300 If Don Lemon is really drunk, the way on our last story, the young lady there was really

00:52:06.360 drunk and changed her voice.

00:52:07.780 If he's really drunk and he's on a tear, it's definitely in the realm of possibilities.

00:52:13.700 On the other hand, it's totally a money grab, but you know what?

00:52:16.400 What the heck?

00:52:17.000 I mean, as you said, Don Lemon holds himself out as holier than thou, malier than thou.

00:52:22.400 He's the moral arbiter of the world, so if he screwed up one night and he's making a

00:52:26.360 lot of money, it's not like $1.5 million is going to put him on the poor house.

00:52:30.560 Yes, it's a money grab, but as Mark said, there's so many details here.

00:52:34.740 There is a ring of truth that something along those lines had to have happened.

00:52:39.460 Arthur.

00:52:40.440 So because he holds himself out to be holier than thou, and because maybe he's got deep

00:52:45.280 pockets, somehow you let someone make a mockery of the civil system, assuming it took place.

00:52:49.920 It's not a mockery.

00:52:51.160 Who knows what a jury will do?

00:52:52.680 A jury may give him $5 million.

00:52:54.300 Who the hell wants Don Lemon's penis smell on your face?

00:52:58.000 But that's, I don't care.

00:52:59.080 That may be worth more than if you broke your arm in a car accident.

00:53:02.620 I'm not looking for someone.

00:53:03.500 He's lucky he wasn't me, because Don Lemon would talk a little differently now, because

00:53:07.140 I'd rip his tongue out if I didn't punch his teeth out.

00:53:09.260 Are you crazy?

00:53:09.880 I mean, I can't believe there was no physical assault that accompanied that action by any

00:53:16.000 human being.

00:53:16.680 I mean, come on, Mark.

00:53:17.580 You're no shrinking violet.

00:53:19.040 You weren't going to let someone do something like that without retribution, immediate retribution.

00:53:24.300 That's the part of the story that doesn't ring true to me.

00:53:26.880 If he did that to me, I think out of instinct, I'd punch him right in the face.

00:53:30.160 That's what the boss was saying.

00:53:31.360 George was saying.

00:53:32.220 He's like, if he had done that to me, I would have punched him right in the face.

00:53:35.440 But George, not everybody's built like that.

00:53:37.720 I mean, the plaintiff, in this case, Dustin, seems to have been genuinely humiliated and

00:53:41.800 said, and I quote, the guy who assaulted me is on television every night.

00:53:45.560 It's like a knife twisting in my side on a daily basis.

00:53:48.540 I've laid in bed and felt my heart beating out of my chest after I watched the news.

00:53:52.200 And let me tell you something.

00:53:53.260 If this victim, alleged victim, were a woman, none of us would be questioning that.

00:53:58.540 Mark?

00:53:59.100 That's true.

00:54:00.100 Believe all women.

00:54:01.040 That's what the attorney general-

00:54:01.880 No, we don't believe all women.

00:54:03.300 And we don't believe all men either.

00:54:04.560 And again, I say again-

00:54:05.660 That's what the attorney general of my state said.

00:54:07.160 I am not a Don Lemon fan, but I am a fan of the law.

00:54:13.000 And I want to make sure that we're not just completely railroading this guy because I don't

00:54:15.760 like him.

00:54:16.520 But I agree with this very, very detailed account.

00:54:19.280 Doesn't necessarily mean it's true, however.

00:54:21.400 Megan, you just said if she was a woman, if the alleged victim was a woman, we wouldn't

00:54:25.020 be questioning that.

00:54:26.060 Questioning what?

00:54:26.480 The allegations?

00:54:27.560 Her trauma.

00:54:29.440 Her trauma.

00:54:30.260 You know, like Arthur was saying later, or you were saying, one of you guys was saying

00:54:32.960 like-

00:54:33.140 I'm not going to be questioning it.

00:54:33.940 You know, ongoing anxiety and stress.

00:54:36.040 You question it.

00:54:36.560 I don't think so.

00:54:37.340 If this were a woman, you think we'd be questioning her saying, it's traumatic for me to see this

00:54:42.340 person on TV.

00:54:43.680 You know, they hold themselves out as this advocate.

00:54:47.560 Millions of dollars, depressed, in a bed, the way he's alleging.

00:54:51.800 Come on.

00:54:52.100 I'm with Arthur.

00:54:52.800 If I had that penis smell all over me, I would say it's worth that 1.5.

00:54:57.880 I'm offended by thinking of that.

00:55:00.160 I don't even want to see that or hear that.

00:55:01.980 Ooh.

00:55:02.660 Okay.

00:55:03.160 We're going to get sued by our audience just for bringing the image into their heads.

00:55:07.360 It's going to be an interesting trial.

00:55:08.780 It's not far from us, from me here in Suffolk County.

00:55:12.660 And I actually practice in that courthouse.

00:55:15.040 It's going to be interesting.

00:55:15.920 And boy, that is not going to be a fun day for Don Lemon when he's got to go in there.

00:55:19.800 It's not going to go to trial.

00:55:20.660 He's going to categorically deny it.

00:55:22.900 I mean, I could see a settlement coming down the pipe.

00:55:27.660 I see that too.

00:55:28.360 No question, especially because of George Vanoulis.

00:55:31.320 And by the way, I disagree.

00:55:32.160 See, I don't give him the money.

00:55:33.320 I disagree that he's not independent just because he's the boss.

00:55:36.120 I mean, you hear this guy.

00:55:37.100 He's like, I was making fun of Dustin for the rest of the night and for days thereafter.

00:55:42.140 He doesn't sound like he's up Dustin's you-know-what.

00:55:44.320 You know, now we're really in some ugly images.

00:55:47.740 He sounds like a guy who just saw something that he thought was like funny in a humiliating

00:55:52.460 way and then came to realize it was genuinely traumatic.

00:55:54.660 By the way, if this really did happen in the crowded bar, Mervs, as they all claim on the

00:55:58.580 plaintiff's side, there should be other witnesses.

00:56:00.600 So we should hear from more than just George.

00:56:02.660 And if they start lining up other independent witnesses, for sure, Don settles this and it

00:56:07.120 may be for seven figures.

00:56:08.200 Okay, let's move on.

00:56:09.200 But do you see CNN coming to the plate and saying, Don, you know, we'll help you financially

00:56:13.460 to get rid of this so that the whole network doesn't get embarrassed?

00:56:16.720 No.

00:56:17.220 I mean, CNN so far has been like, he's vigorously denied.

00:56:19.540 They don't care.

00:56:20.100 They're not conducting an independent investigation into their anchor.

00:56:22.660 But do you see them giving him money to make it go away?

00:56:24.740 No, no.

00:56:25.800 I definitely don't see that.

00:56:27.320 I think this is a Don Lemon problem, not a CNN problem in terms of money.

00:56:30.700 Now, in terms of credibility, different story.

00:56:33.740 And I really think just the reason I've mentioned it repeatedly is because, look, I don't know whether

00:56:37.980 Don Lemon did this or not, but I am sick of that guy being the moral judge of everyone.

00:56:43.460 And it's always Trump voters, Republicans, who he thinks are so stupid and mockable.

00:56:50.060 Well, who is he to cast stones at anybody, right?

00:56:53.080 Like, I just, I'm sick of it.

00:56:55.500 You know, people do stupid ass things.

00:56:57.440 Maybe he did it.

00:56:58.160 Maybe he's sorry.

00:56:59.480 Maybe it wasn't as bad as this guy says.

00:57:01.060 I don't know.

00:57:01.920 But I want him to stop lecturing America on how to be better people until he gets his

00:57:06.140 own house in order.

00:57:06.760 Your Honor, I'd like to use a cause challenge on Miss Kelly.

00:57:09.860 Definitely granted to granted.

00:57:13.260 All right.

00:57:13.760 Let's move on to Britney Spears because we've had updates in her case.

00:57:16.860 I mean, you tell me, but it's like total victory for Britney.

00:57:21.040 Complete surrender by her dad, Jamie Spears.

00:57:24.880 Not only is he now agreeing that the conservatorship should end, he's even agreeing that it should

00:57:31.200 end without a further psychiatric evaluation, which is exactly what she said.

00:57:35.840 I don't want to have to go through one of those again.

00:57:38.480 And now her new lawyer and she was able to get her own lawyer because you have the last

00:57:43.900 public court hearing she had where she was like, I want my own lawyer and I want, you

00:57:48.280 know, one out of this conservatorship.

00:57:49.520 She got her own lawyer and the old lawyer is is saying not only is this a massive legal

00:57:54.380 victory for her, we're going after him.

00:57:56.840 We're going after him.

00:57:58.800 There's not going to be a settlement between us and him.

00:58:01.160 Our investigation into his financial mismanagement and other issues will continue.

00:58:07.220 Yikes.

00:58:07.980 So what does that what does all this mean, Arthur?

00:58:10.000 How did we get to the point where Jamie Spears completely gave up?

00:58:13.860 Well, you know, if they're threatening a forensic accounting accountant coming in and looking

00:58:19.380 at his dollars and cents there, what they say on TV and what happens behind the scenes

00:58:24.580 may be something different.

00:58:25.520 The knee jerk answer is maybe this they're working out some sort of a settlement, but

00:58:30.740 he should be they should be a fight.

00:58:32.660 They should have been all along.

00:58:34.620 They should have been a court appointed accountant or guardian of the guardian.

00:58:39.580 As soon as she made complaints, there should be a double check of the system.

00:58:44.160 And and it's it's not hard to follow the money.

00:58:47.160 She's not like she's getting paid in cash.

00:58:49.020 So it's like there's checks, there's bank accounts.

00:58:51.820 And somebody has got to double check this guy that he didn't either one intentionally

00:58:56.960 do something or two meaning meaning squander her money or two.

00:59:01.080 So negligently negligence, negligently did something that that really diminished her wealth.

00:59:09.360 It's all it's all this is all about money at this point.

00:59:11.800 Apparently, she's getting married.

00:59:13.180 There's going to be a prenup.

00:59:14.420 She's moving on with her life.

00:59:15.900 Good for her.

00:59:16.680 She's moving on.

00:59:17.380 All right.

00:59:17.600 She's she's already posting videos on Instagram of her pretty much naked bottom.

00:59:21.240 I don't know how that celebrates this victory, but OK, maybe it's like you can kiss my you

00:59:25.260 know what and she's doing like cartwheels, like all the things.

00:59:29.480 She's very, very happy, which is good.

00:59:30.720 It's good to see this poor gal happy who's been through so much.

00:59:34.140 But you tell me what this means, Mark, because this is from Jamie Spears, the dad from his

00:59:40.560 attorney.

00:59:41.320 As Miss Spears has said again and again, as Mr. Spears has said again and again, all he wants

00:59:47.220 is what's best for his daughter.

00:59:48.340 If Miss Spears wants to terminate the conservatorship and believes that she can handle her own life,

00:59:56.000 Mr. Spears believes that she should get that chance.

00:59:59.380 To me, it's like it's to me, this is like the dad being like, let's see how that works

01:00:04.620 out.

01:00:05.340 No, here's exactly what I see.

01:00:06.700 OK, it's the person who has done something wrong in the workplace.

01:00:09.680 They're about to get fired.

01:00:11.340 They go, you know, I'll resign.

01:00:12.580 I'll resign.

01:00:13.060 It's the it's the country that sees the enemy advancing after winning numerous battles and

01:00:18.160 they're about to be pounced.

01:00:19.500 They go, no, no, no, I will surrender.

01:00:20.720 We're giving up.

01:00:21.340 We're not.

01:00:21.940 He knows because of the court of public opinion.

01:00:24.160 And he sees what's going on in that courtroom that his ousting is a matter of days away.

01:00:30.520 And he goes, no, no, no.

01:00:31.200 I want what's best for my daughter.

01:00:32.580 He's looking out for himself, as he always has.

01:00:34.540 The other piece of it, Arthur, is that Netflix is about to come out with yet another.

01:00:40.560 They didn't release the first one.

01:00:41.900 I think the first one was The New York Times, the Free Britney thing.

01:00:44.280 But but Netflix is about to release a Britney Spears documentary.

01:00:48.140 They released their trailer that's hanging over him because it gins up public opinion.

01:00:52.680 And they're claiming that they've got some sort of confidential document that was leaked

01:00:56.480 to the filmmakers by someone involved with the conservatorship.

01:00:59.320 I don't know what's in there, but here is the trailer touting what they have.

01:01:04.540 I don't owe these people anything.

01:01:08.300 No one would talk.

01:01:10.200 I'm not going to acknowledge that I was ever brought in to evaluate Britney Spears.

01:01:15.300 Until they did.

01:01:17.260 Someone very close to the conservatorship leaked me this confidential report.

01:01:22.260 Britney had to go into court a million times, all of these hours of criticizing her.

01:01:27.280 It's an epic fail of the legal system that this has gone on for so long.

01:01:31.440 How do you get out?

01:01:32.600 You don't get out.

01:01:34.540 Until you scream.

01:01:37.380 I deserve to have the same rights as anybody does.

01:01:41.420 It's been 13 years and it's enough.

01:01:46.340 So how much do you think he's worried just the PR war is lost?

01:01:51.420 I don't think he cares.

01:01:52.540 I mean, he's not really a PR guy.

01:01:54.400 I think he cares about the dollars and cents.

01:01:56.460 I think he cares about what's in his bank account, what he can keep.

01:01:59.900 You know, there are clawback provisions, right?

01:02:02.180 So if a forensic accountant is appointed, they go back to the court and say he was just putting all kinds of money in his pocket.

01:02:08.620 He was buying himself extravagant items that it's Britney's money.

01:02:12.320 That's not what he's supposed to be doing.

01:02:13.780 A court could absolutely put in some sort of a restitution order and say, you've got to give it all back.

01:02:18.500 I would think that's where his fear is and he knows what he did or he didn't do.

01:02:22.820 And ultimately, it could lead to criminality if it is so egregious.

01:02:26.400 He's trying to get money on his way out the door, Mark.

01:02:29.400 The new lawyer has previously accused Jamie Spears of abusing his position of control over her finances, challenging Jamie Spears' latest request.

01:02:42.760 The dad has filed the latest request to fund more than $1 million in attorney's fees.

01:02:47.660 He wants Britney to pay a million bucks in his attorney's fees, including $541,000 for, quote, media matters.

01:02:56.040 So in his dealing with the media and the lawyers, he wants her to pay for it.

01:03:00.520 I'll play devil's advocate.

01:03:01.900 I don't know what their contract is.

01:03:04.180 And I do know that he's alleging that her finances went up significantly while he was acting in her best interest.

01:03:12.220 And the numbers could bear that out.

01:03:14.700 So maybe he isn't entitled to it.

01:03:16.560 I don't know.

01:03:17.440 A million bucks, though, Mark.

01:03:18.660 I don't know about your rates.

01:03:19.720 That's a lot of legal work, a million dollars in legal fees.

01:03:23.840 Hey, that's just another Thursday to you, baby.

01:03:26.300 Come on.

01:03:27.400 Yeah.

01:03:28.160 How about a whole lifetime of Thursdays?

01:03:29.700 Managing partners.

01:03:30.240 It does seem like a large amount of money for legal fees in this type of a matter.

01:03:35.020 All right.

01:03:35.320 So let me ask you this.

01:03:36.280 So the conservatorship is going to end and Jamie Spears is going to slink off and they'll

01:03:40.660 do this forensic accounting and figure out whether he's been doing something awful.

01:03:43.980 But what are the odds that it could be reimposed?

01:03:46.360 You know, if she has a meltdown, if she goes through all of her money, she's about to get married.

01:03:49.700 They're saying that we need a new conservatorship, just a new person in charge of this conservatorship,

01:03:53.700 just temporarily until it wraps up because she's going to need a prenup.

01:03:57.580 The dad should not be in charge of it.

01:04:00.260 You know, do any of us think that she's perfectly stable?

01:04:03.240 And I'm concerned about what life holds for her.

01:04:07.060 It doesn't mean I think she should be under the dad's control.

01:04:08.840 But what happened?

01:04:09.720 Could it be reinstated?

01:04:11.500 Someone's got to step up and who's going to step up and say who's going to step up,

01:04:15.120 who's going to file the petition in the court, in the guardianship court and say, listen,

01:04:20.180 I think she's losing it.

01:04:21.460 I don't I think she's squandering all her money.

01:04:23.980 She married this guy.

01:04:25.220 She refused to sign a prenup, whatever.

01:04:27.440 They're going to have to have show a judge that, in fact, she's going off the rails and

01:04:31.620 then they'll have to start this all over again.

01:04:33.600 But someone has to do that.

01:04:35.420 Clearly, she's not going to do it.

01:04:36.720 I doubt her father's going to do it unless we're totally misjudging the father.

01:04:40.760 And he really does love his daughter.

01:04:42.220 And he knows things that we don't know.

01:04:44.120 And he knows that she's not right in the head to handle her own affairs.

01:04:48.580 I don't ever see this being reinstated, number one.

01:04:51.600 And number two, just make a list of everybody in Hollywood.

01:04:55.300 You can equally have as much concern for them and their stability or lack thereof than

01:05:00.840 Brittany on our worst day.

01:05:02.480 I think that a conservatorship, again, is reserved for not just the wacky, not for people

01:05:07.500 who are unstable, but people who are like in comas, right?

01:05:11.600 Think coma.

01:05:12.640 Think of dementia.

01:05:13.960 That's what we're talking about.

01:05:15.560 And and her being a little wacky, eccentric, even off the rails.

01:05:18.540 That doesn't do it.

01:05:19.900 Yeah.

01:05:20.080 Well, in what world can Britney Spears put on shows before hundreds of thousands of people

01:05:24.500 live and there's a conservatorship and Hunter Biden can walk around just perfectly fine

01:05:29.400 with nobody overseeing him whatsoever?

01:05:30.740 And by the way, he has access to the Oval Office.

01:05:32.980 All right.

01:05:34.440 Much more on the docket coming up, including me.

01:05:37.440 I'm on the docket and I'll tell you why in a minute.

01:05:40.360 And in 20 minutes, a little less than I'd love to hear your take.

01:05:43.760 I'd love to hear your verdict on the cases discussed.

01:05:45.960 Would you turn your child over to the FBI if, God forbid, they got wrapped up in something

01:05:49.820 horrible or would you help them out?

01:05:52.300 Call us 833-44-MEGYN.

01:05:55.140 That's 833-446-3496.

01:06:00.740 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show, everyone.

01:06:05.600 Joined today by lawyers Mark Eichlash and Arthur Eidala.

01:06:08.980 And I want to know your verdict on the cases we're discussing.

01:06:11.660 What do you think about the Britney Spears conservatorship finally ending?

01:06:15.820 Call me at 833-44-MEGYN.

01:06:18.100 That's 833-446-3496.

01:06:23.120 And now to the Halloween prank that is likely funny to everyone unless you witnessed it live.

01:06:30.020 So, OK, this is a case out of Galveston down in Texas where a lawyer named Mark Metzger

01:06:39.200 thought it would be funny in the wake of the killer hurricane or in the wake of the hurricane,

01:06:45.060 Hurricane Nicholas, which shut down courts for the day, to go out on the beach under

01:06:51.420 and the Galveston Island Pleasure Pier dressed up as Michael Myers, the crazy, you know, like

01:07:00.920 with the hockey mask.

01:07:02.980 What's the movie?

01:07:03.600 Why am I forgetting the name of the movie?

01:07:05.560 Halloween.

01:07:06.340 Halloween.

01:07:06.880 Thank you.

01:07:07.340 Duh.

01:07:07.580 Look, look at the pictures.

01:07:09.220 So the police come.

01:07:10.920 He thinks it's going to be funny.

01:07:12.380 The police come.

01:07:13.820 They approach him.

01:07:15.100 And apparently he tries to stay in character as the killer when they when they first got

01:07:22.280 to him.

01:07:23.380 Do we have video of this or is it just the still shots, Debbie?

01:07:26.360 Oh, we have the video.

01:07:27.280 OK, let's watch it.

01:07:28.340 There he is down on his knees.

01:07:29.780 Here come the cops.

01:07:31.620 He goes down on all fours.

01:07:33.860 They're treating him like he's a real Michael Myers.

01:07:37.580 OMG, you guys.

01:07:41.060 So he I guess the police received a call about a man walking the beach while carrying what

01:07:45.260 looked to be a bloody knife and and they went and arrested him and the arrest stands right

01:07:51.800 now.

01:07:52.140 So what do they charge him with?

01:07:53.760 And why are they doing this?

01:07:56.820 Ridiculous, ridiculous, disorderly conduct.

01:08:00.320 I mean, yeah.

01:08:00.860 Give him an award for being a knucklehead.

01:08:02.580 I don't think there's anything funny about it.

01:08:04.200 I think in this day and age, particularly Texas, where four year olds have guns, apparently

01:08:08.580 you're really you're going to go out there with a knife.

01:08:11.280 You're going to act like a fool on the beach.

01:08:12.680 I think he's he wins the award and he's guilty.

01:08:15.760 The court of public opinion for doing something stupid to me, not funny, but clearly not a

01:08:21.200 criminal act.

01:08:22.040 I would defend him for free if it was here in South Florida.

01:08:24.100 You got a lot of coming your way, you guys.

01:08:26.020 A lot of pro bono over here.

01:08:27.840 What's going on?

01:08:28.800 I mean, Florida, my backyard.

01:08:30.500 I'm not going all the way over there.

01:08:31.820 Sadly, Megan, we're you know, we're in a place in our society where I mean, besides the

01:08:36.620 political correctors, you can't tell a joke, but because of the violence and guns and cops,

01:08:43.300 you know, walking on pins and needles every moment that they're on the job.

01:08:47.740 Yeah, it's like, as Mark said, you kind of get the knucklehead of the year award.

01:08:51.040 I mean, I think it's a waste of time to arrest this guy.

01:08:54.400 I think it's a waste of our criminal justice resources.

01:08:57.760 I think a good swift kick in the butt would have been would have been fine, but they're

01:09:01.540 not allowed to do that anymore.

01:09:02.540 They do that to me, Megan.

01:09:03.500 And when the cop caught me doing something silly, he literally grabbed me by the back

01:09:07.220 of my neck.

01:09:07.860 He kicked me in the butt and said, I'll get out of here.

01:09:10.480 I like that.

01:09:11.060 Those are the good old days.

01:09:11.820 Yeah.

01:09:12.140 I like that too.

01:09:13.360 That brings it home.

01:09:15.200 Yeah.

01:09:15.620 Megan, may I ask you something?

01:09:16.980 Honestly, I most of the time I can get it.

01:09:19.680 What you're laughing.

01:09:21.440 What maybe because I don't see the video, right?

01:09:24.220 What's funny?

01:09:24.960 What was funny about it?

01:09:26.380 I just think it's funny that like they have him down on his hands and knees.

01:09:29.420 Like, didn't they realize that this is just some knucklehead?

01:09:31.260 I'm sure the lawyer, as soon as they approached him, was like,

01:09:33.500 oh my God, no, I'm not Michael Myers.

01:09:35.300 I swear.

01:09:36.120 I'm just like some crank lawyer who's trying to, I guess, bring people a laugh.

01:09:41.400 And it turned, it just got escalated.

01:09:43.760 Even the person taking the video can reportedly be heard saying, what a moron.

01:09:47.460 And it's just sort of like you see the guy is a dumbass and the cops making a federal

01:09:51.100 case out of it.

01:09:52.280 By the way, for what it's worth, according to the Texas Penal Code, you can be charged

01:09:56.500 with disorderly conduct if you do any of these in a public place.

01:09:59.340 That's the charge.

01:10:00.620 Use abusive, indecent, profane, or vulgar language.

01:10:03.160 No.

01:10:04.160 Make an obscene gesture that's likely to start a physical altercation.

01:10:07.720 No, I don't think so.

01:10:09.540 Use chemicals to make a noxious and unreasonable odor.

01:10:12.600 No.

01:10:13.860 Verbally abuse or threaten another person in an obviously offensive manner.

01:10:18.760 I don't think so.

01:10:19.880 Make an unreasonable noise in a public place or near a private residence that's not your

01:10:23.340 own.

01:10:23.840 No.

01:10:24.540 Get into a fight with another person.

01:10:25.920 No.

01:10:26.200 Fire a gun.

01:10:26.880 Display a gun with the intention to scare people.

01:10:28.760 Not a knife.

01:10:29.280 A gun.

01:10:29.740 Nope.

01:10:30.680 Expose your genitals or anus.

01:10:32.260 Oh, wow.

01:10:32.720 They had a lot of genital talk on this show.

01:10:34.580 In a reckless manner.

01:10:35.760 In a reckless manner that disregards anyone else.

01:10:38.240 Oh!

01:10:40.380 Whoa!

01:10:41.180 You didn't see them standing there.

01:10:44.380 Or peek into someone else's home or motel room.

01:10:47.500 Private restrooms.

01:10:48.300 Shower stall dressing room for lewd or unlawful.

01:10:50.320 I don't think they got them.

01:10:52.560 And they may not.

01:10:53.400 They just want, look, Megan, they're just looking for an excuse to get them off the

01:10:56.620 street.

01:10:57.340 And, you know, police officers do that to protect all of us.

01:11:01.460 You know, it's not that rare that they'll write someone up for disorderly conduct, or

01:11:06.200 at least it's like shooting a, give me a warning.

01:11:09.120 It's really like giving them a warning.

01:11:10.360 Because usually, just so you guys know, once you get into court, 90, not 90, but a big

01:11:15.440 percentage of those cases just get dismissed anyway.

01:11:17.400 Yeah, exactly.

01:11:18.100 This one's going away.

01:11:19.240 Gave you a hard time.

01:11:20.180 Not in Texas, Arthur.

01:11:21.260 Not, not in Texas.

01:11:22.920 You're right.

01:11:23.220 Death penalty.

01:11:23.880 Death penalty.

01:11:24.420 I'll go out on a limb and say this is going away.

01:11:26.160 Michael Meyer will not never have to face charges.

01:11:28.800 All right.

01:11:29.260 Now, on to more important matters, my own case.

01:11:32.600 So last Friday after the show, I had to go up to Albany in a hurry because my sister,

01:11:39.520 unfortunately, is in the hospital and she is still there.

01:11:43.660 I think she's going to be okay, but she had an emergency.

01:11:46.380 And so I drove up there and I was on a road I'd actually never been on before.

01:11:51.980 And I was unceremoniously pulled over by a police officer who wrongly, wrongly accused

01:11:58.440 me of doing 75 in a 55, which I deny.

01:12:03.400 But I was issued a ticket and now I'm in the position of having to defend myself.

01:12:08.260 And what is the way out of this for me?

01:12:11.080 Help.

01:12:11.920 Mark will do a pro bono.

01:12:13.280 Let's just start with that.

01:12:14.740 A third pro bono case of the segment.

01:12:17.300 So we're good to go.

01:12:18.260 But go ahead, Mark.

01:12:19.040 Tell her what you're doing.

01:12:20.280 Well, only because I know your husband, we can't go with battered woman syndrome.

01:12:24.580 But OK, that's not going to work.

01:12:26.700 Take that off the table.

01:12:27.580 I love Doug.

01:12:28.140 It's not going to happen.

01:12:29.100 By the way, just to clear up a point earlier, Elizabeth Holmes was not drunk when she was

01:12:32.400 doing her fake.

01:12:33.080 Oh, she was drunk when she slipped into her real voice.

01:12:36.100 Was that the allegation?

01:12:37.000 Yes.

01:12:37.280 Yes.

01:12:37.700 OK, OK, OK, OK.

01:12:39.140 Sorry, go ahead.

01:12:39.640 Megan, I got to know, not that it's relevant, but like, did the guy recognize you?

01:12:44.300 I don't know.

01:12:45.340 And I intentionally did not play that card.

01:12:48.020 I didn't play the card that my brother's a cop, a lieutenant.

01:12:50.740 I didn't play any cards.

01:12:51.780 Mistake, mistake, mistake.

01:12:52.200 I didn't feel right about it.

01:12:54.240 I really didn't.

01:12:55.040 I was like, you know, that's sort of a prick move to sort of be like, hey, I'm a famous

01:12:58.700 person and I have a cop brother.

01:13:00.520 And you're certain, you're certain.

01:13:03.080 I'm just curious that you genuinely might not have been going 75.

01:13:08.200 Yes.

01:13:08.400 In other words, but you didn't realize it.

01:13:10.240 I'm innocent.

01:13:11.280 That I am innocent.

01:13:13.400 Hold on.

01:13:14.660 Hold on.

01:13:15.080 Are you innocent of going 75 or are you innocent of not breaking the speed limit of 55?

01:13:20.720 Just in general, I'm innocent.

01:13:22.400 That's all you really need to know.

01:13:23.600 Yeah.

01:13:24.080 OK.

01:13:24.900 Yeah.

01:13:25.200 You look at the dictionary, innocent.

01:13:26.860 All right, sir.

01:13:27.280 It's like a Kelly's photo.

01:13:28.340 How is this kind of thing handled?

01:13:30.200 Like, do I got to go?

01:13:31.500 Do I have to go into the court now?

01:13:33.380 Like, what do I, you know, how does, for all of our listeners out there who find themselves

01:13:37.480 in this position, what are we supposed to do?

01:13:39.060 All right.

01:13:39.280 So, Arthur, Arthur, first of all, lay off my client.

01:13:42.100 Any of these statements could be used against her.

01:13:43.780 So, the first thing, Megan, it hinges upon the citation.

01:13:49.340 So, sometimes they'll put the wrong statute down, maybe like the enabling portion of the

01:13:54.520 statute, which makes it like, all right, on the roadways, we have signs and we have speeds.

01:13:59.760 OK, that's 316.192.

01:14:02.060 And then you go to the next subsection and it says, but if you go over that, here's what

01:14:06.020 they got to charge you with.

01:14:06.940 So, perhaps they put the wrong statute.

01:14:09.360 That's number one.

01:14:09.940 Number two, you wonder whether the guy has had his vehicle calibrated or radar, right?

01:14:18.160 We don't know what you used.

01:14:19.060 Do you know if he used radar or whether he used...

01:14:20.960 He didn't say.

01:14:22.880 OK.

01:14:23.360 Well, OK.

01:14:24.360 How do we know?

01:14:25.240 In other words, how did he determine what your speed was?

01:14:27.580 Well, I drove and then I looked at my dashboard.

01:14:29.960 Well, how do we know that that was properly calibrated?

01:14:31.800 Does he have the documents, the annual inspection, the monthly inspection to ensure that whatever

01:14:36.580 instrument he was using, spike that, not instrument, whatever machine he was using, because machines

01:14:40.720 make mistakes, accurately calibrated your speed?

01:14:45.540 So, Megan, you want to know the real answer?

01:14:48.040 What you're going to do?

01:14:48.960 Yeah.

01:14:49.260 You're going to go online and you're going to look at whatever town that's in and you're

01:14:53.920 going to look at ticket fighting lawyer and you're probably going to pay about 200

01:14:57.500 bucks.

01:14:58.320 And that lawyer is going to go into court and he's going to change it.

01:15:01.100 He's going to negotiate a plea that it goes from a speeding ticket to something that won't

01:15:05.900 put points on your license and you'll have to pay a little fine and you probably won't

01:15:09.520 need to appear and it'll be over.

01:15:11.180 You're hired.

01:15:12.360 Done.

01:15:12.940 I accept your offer.

01:15:14.120 I'm not doing that, but I mean, there are lawyers that just live in those courthouses

01:15:18.320 and that's basically what they do.

01:15:20.300 And they know the tricks of the trade, like I was talking about earlier in that specific

01:15:24.500 jurisdiction.

01:15:24.920 They know what the magistrate or judge would dismiss based upon it.

01:15:28.440 And maybe they've got some defect in the, in the citation that can get it.

01:15:32.220 You know, it's like, you never know.

01:15:33.220 Isn't it, it's frustrating when you're going with the, with the flow of traffic, right?

01:15:36.520 And you just get singled out for whatever reason.

01:15:38.480 Cause it's like, I, all the time I obey the speed limit cause I'm generally a scaredy

01:15:42.140 cat on the road, but haven't you been the victim of these lunatics who ride so fast on

01:15:46.140 the road?

01:15:46.400 They completely like in the Grand Prix, they're cutting you off.

01:15:50.180 They're cutting off other people.

01:15:51.560 The cops, you never see them pulled over on the side of the road.

01:15:53.820 What, what, what is, what is the, um, the moral issue that you have?

01:15:59.440 Forget about the celebrity thing, but what's the moral issue?

01:16:02.400 Cause the police officer has discretion of you saying, officer, I'm very sorry.

01:16:07.320 I don't believe I was breaking the speed limit.

01:16:09.460 I may be distracted because my sister, my sister, my sister is ill.

01:16:13.300 And by the way, my brother has served on the force for this amount of years.

01:16:16.840 If there's any courtesy you can give my family, it would be greatly appreciated.

01:16:20.760 Now the ball's in his court.

01:16:22.000 It felt wrong to me.

01:16:24.940 Go ahead.

01:16:25.240 I have a better way to say it.

01:16:26.000 And I don't love that.

01:16:26.840 I don't love that.

01:16:27.420 Cause you never questioned the cop.

01:16:28.700 The minute you say, I don't believe I was doing that.

01:16:31.240 He doesn't listen to anything you say.

01:16:32.420 What you say is you say, you know what?

01:16:35.640 I am so sorry.

01:16:37.140 Again, if I was speeding, I wasn't even aware of it.

01:16:39.920 Thank you.

01:16:40.440 I'm rushing the hospital because of my sister.

01:16:42.580 And you know what?

01:16:43.200 I do have family members in law enforcement.

01:16:45.360 I'm usually very good at following the law.

01:16:47.920 If I did, I'm so sorry for that.

01:16:50.000 So what I'm gleaning from both of you, though, is that your only chance of avoiding the ticket

01:16:55.740 is to talk the guy out of giving you the ticket in the first place.

01:16:59.740 Absolutely.

01:17:00.520 There's no like getting an innocent finding in a court after the ticket has been issued.

01:17:06.920 Yes.

01:17:07.380 No, I, again, maybe where Arthur practices, it depends what jurisdiction is.

01:17:11.420 We get a lot dismissed for the reasons that I stated earlier.

01:17:14.240 Yes.

01:17:14.540 Mark's right.

01:17:15.120 I mean, they write, they fill out the ticket the wrong way.

01:17:17.380 But usually, Megan, you're not going to come in and testify that you're doing only 55 and

01:17:22.100 he's going to testify that you did 75.

01:17:24.400 The judge is never ruling for you.

01:17:26.120 Never.

01:17:26.420 I'll tell you something.

01:17:26.740 I'll tell you something else funny.

01:17:27.960 So I always talk about my mom because she's such a colorful character.

01:17:30.700 My mother, she's hilarious.

01:17:32.260 So I went up and I was with her and, you know, we went to see my sister.

01:17:35.340 And my mother has this problem where she can't say names and she can't.

01:17:38.340 She just can't.

01:17:38.800 She calls Dr. Fauci, Dr. Fawcett.

01:17:41.080 She she thought covert COVID-19 was covert 12.

01:17:45.520 I could go on.

01:17:46.940 She thought the lyrics to the following song were there's a bathroom on the right.

01:17:54.100 OK, so this is my mom.

01:17:55.740 So I spent some time with my mom last weekend and my mom, she cannot pronounce the name of

01:18:01.020 my new dog.

01:18:01.680 We got it.

01:18:02.160 We have Thunder, who's two, and we just got a new dog named Strudwick, which I guarantee

01:18:06.240 you, it's kind of a tough one.

01:18:07.520 But Strudwick, Strud, Strud, Strud, Strud.

01:18:09.880 So it got so bad over the weekend.

01:18:11.540 It's just as an aside, because I just wanted to update you on my mom.

01:18:14.820 I started to keep a running list of the number of things that my mother called Strud, Strudwick.

01:18:19.600 OK, here's here is the list.

01:18:20.960 I just kept adding Struggy, Shrubber, Shrugger, Shrudi, Schroeder, Screw, Shredwick, Strudnik,

01:18:29.780 Schwarzenegger, Schwarzie, Saltsy, Schnooky, Studwick, getting closer, Shrud, and Scrud.

01:18:39.980 You know, you and names are great.

01:18:42.340 I can relate.

01:18:43.460 My father, who's in his 80s, still to this day, believes the guy who's responsible for

01:18:48.080 songs like Born to Run and Born in the USA is named Bruce Epstein.

01:18:52.300 He claims him for the Jews, for some reason, for us, for our people.

01:18:56.500 And I keep correcting him.

01:18:57.820 I'm like, Mom, Mom, what are you saying?

01:19:00.740 Right now, we have this dog trainer working with us, with our puppy, because he's difficult.

01:19:05.280 And he goes by dog commander.

01:19:07.700 And so I kept referencing him in those terms.

01:19:10.400 And last night, I was talking to my mom.

01:19:11.640 And she was like, oh, you tell Battalion Chief 95 that I'm like, who?

01:19:16.360 That's her neighbor.

01:19:17.500 She can't remember any of these things.

01:19:20.720 But she's the same age as Joe Biden, but doesn't have access to the nuclear codes.

01:19:25.020 So we can all be thankful for that.

01:19:27.900 Before I let you go, I've got to ask you about this little ditty.

01:19:30.980 I don't even know if you guys knew this one was coming.

01:19:32.480 But today, the ACLU decided to celebrate, not celebrate, but commemorate the one-year

01:19:39.400 mark of Ruth Bader Ginsburg's death by retweeting a famous quote of hers about a woman's quote

01:19:46.200 right to choose.

01:19:47.040 And rather than just posting her quote, as you would imagine, the ACLU is also pro-choice

01:19:52.900 like Bader Ginsburg was, rather than just posting her original quote, which was, and

01:19:58.400 I quote, from 1993, the decision whether or not to bear a child is central to a woman's

01:20:02.760 life, to her well-being and dignity.

01:20:04.660 It's a decision she must make for herself, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:20:07.540 They changed her words to the decision whether or not to bear a child is central to a person's

01:20:14.840 life, in brackets, to their well-being and dignity, in brackets.

01:20:19.640 When the government controls that decision for people, they are being treated as less

01:20:24.620 than fully adult human, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:20:26.060 So all the pronouns are changed to they from she.

01:20:28.680 And they, in commemorating this woman who spent her whole life fighting for women's rights,

01:20:32.460 have decided to eliminate women from the equation.

01:20:36.600 Ruth Bader Ginsburg has been gone for a year and is in no position to fight back against

01:20:41.120 this editing, which she did not approve or call for.

01:20:43.840 And I gotta tell you, it's pissing me off on so many levels this is wrong.

01:20:47.820 Your thoughts?

01:20:49.480 Yeah, I'm just shaking my head.

01:20:51.060 I'm just shaking my head.

01:20:52.100 This world that we live in, it's just ridiculous.

01:20:55.580 And they shouldn't misquote her in any way, shape or form, whether it's political correctness

01:20:59.680 or to make a point, that's not what quotes are all about.

01:21:02.620 Let's go back to the text, as Scalia would say.

01:21:05.360 What is the purpose of a quote?

01:21:06.980 A quote is to exactly represent what someone else wrote or said.

01:21:11.960 And they're just bastardizing the whole thing to make them look.

01:21:14.520 I wonder if they're quoting her saying that she thought Roe v. Wade, from a legal point

01:21:19.140 of view, was a horrible decision.

01:21:20.780 I doubt they're quoting her about that, which she's also been on the record saying.

01:21:25.100 I feel differently than both of you.

01:21:27.140 They used the parentheses and the purpose of it was to be more inclusive of brackets.

01:21:31.980 No, but bullshit.

01:21:33.400 You don't get to mess with somebody's quote to make it more inclusive after the fact

01:21:36.280 and after they're dead.

01:21:37.180 Okay, that's your opinion.

01:21:38.580 I'm not as offended.

01:21:41.440 I can't.

01:21:42.140 You know what?

01:21:42.520 If I happen to outlive you, I'm just going to go back and bastardize all of your quotes.

01:21:46.080 I'm just going to change them all to Megan was right.

01:21:47.820 That would be an improvement.

01:21:48.880 That's okay.

01:21:51.260 I'll put it in brackets.

01:21:52.300 Megan was right again and again.

01:21:54.300 All right, you guys, this has been very helpful.

01:21:56.160 I appreciate this.

01:21:57.260 Wait, don't go away because we're actually going to take calls from the listeners next

01:22:01.140 and maybe you guys will have some answers.

01:22:04.040 So don't go away.

01:22:05.180 We're going to let them go away, but I don't think we should let them go away.

01:22:06.900 Make them stay.

01:22:07.920 What do you guys think of the ACLU changing Ginsburg famous statement or anything we've discussed

01:22:11.680 today?

01:22:12.000 Call me 833-44-MEGYN, 833-446-3496.

01:22:19.860 All right, the phone lines are open.

01:22:22.240 Do you need help fighting a traffic ticket?

01:22:24.440 Call 833-44-MEGYN.

01:22:27.660 Have you found yourself in some sort of a criminal trouble?

01:22:30.820 Call us at 833-446-3496.

01:22:33.660 I've got the guys here who are not expecting you to rely on any of this as legal advice.

01:22:38.280 There's our disclaimer.

01:22:39.600 All right, we're going to kick things off with David.

01:22:41.460 In Virginia, who is upset with you, Arthur, and I guess, you know, to a much lesser extent

01:22:47.100 with me.

01:22:48.180 Why, David?

01:22:49.420 Tell us why.

01:22:50.400 Well, I will tell you, one of the things I love about you, like my Irish mother, you

01:22:55.600 have no problem cussing because she always used to say all the good cuss words are Gaelic

01:23:00.480 and in origin.

01:23:01.820 So I'm just using the mother's tongue.

01:23:03.700 But my mother told all 10 of us kids that if you ever fucking do something illegal, I will

01:23:11.420 drive you to police myself.

01:23:13.980 If that need, if need be, I will throw you in the fucking trunk and drive you down there

01:23:18.980 and sit in the cell next to you if that's illegal.

01:23:21.880 So the idea that Arthur said he would mark his question was very specific.

01:23:27.360 What would you do if your kid came home and told you he did something heinous or she did

01:23:33.440 something heinous?

01:23:35.040 And Arthur said, I would send my kid to Venezuela.

01:23:39.080 Yeah, well, that's the difference between the Irish and the Sicilians.

01:23:41.760 Like we protect our youth and you guys obviously just throw them.

01:23:45.340 It's a death penalty eligible case.

01:23:48.260 It's a death penalty eligible crime.

01:23:51.220 Yeah, I am not going to send my son if he screwed up royally to go get killed.

01:23:56.400 Now, you may feel differently.

01:23:57.720 Your mom may feel differently.

01:23:58.700 I could speak for my mother who Megan and Mark know she would she would definitely shield

01:24:03.120 me from death.

01:24:04.960 Yeah, well, it's tough when it's your child.

01:24:07.340 I mean, I understand, but I think your mom may have just been telling you that to get

01:24:10.860 you not to commit a crime.

01:24:12.700 And unless you have you committed a crime, David, because, you know, unless you did and

01:24:16.240 you went back to her.

01:24:17.420 I have, but my mom didn't know about it.

01:24:20.420 Aha.

01:24:21.460 What what was your crime?

01:24:22.840 I was smart enough to not to tell my mom.

01:24:25.800 What did you do?

01:24:28.040 I'm not saying that.

01:24:29.620 Even if the sagittal ever days are over.

01:24:32.140 Megan, maybe.

01:24:33.000 Trying to lure him in.

01:24:33.720 David, thank you.

01:24:34.300 Go ahead, Mark.

01:24:34.720 My dad told us my dad told us growing up, don't do drugs, because if the drug don't

01:24:40.220 kill you, I will.

01:24:42.000 Well, I'm still here.

01:24:44.360 Yeah, we say a lot of things, but I don't know.

01:24:46.580 And as you point out, if it's a death penalty case in particular, very scary stuff.

01:24:50.920 Melanie in Indiana has got an interesting question, not not related to our cases today.

01:24:55.760 Melanie, what's on your mind?

01:24:56.700 Yeah, I mean, not related.

01:24:57.980 But the question is, can are there any class action lawsuits out there or what sort of legal

01:25:04.840 standing do you have?

01:25:06.900 Again, if you have natural immunity to covid, but they're want to force you to be vaccinated.

01:25:13.860 So there's going to be a flag in the sand on it.

01:25:20.500 I don't know if there's a class action based on natural immunity, you know, for folks who

01:25:24.700 are now facing losing their job when they have natural immunity rather than get a vaccine.

01:25:29.840 But we've seen a couple of lawsuits, individual lawsuits pop up that I don't know that they've

01:25:34.400 been resolved yet.

01:25:35.180 But where do you see that going if somebody tries to say, you can't force me because I

01:25:39.400 have natural immunity?

01:25:40.020 Well, here in New York, Megan, right now, it's a lot of it has to do with the teachers.

01:25:44.340 And I've got three phone calls in three days from New York City school teachers who one

01:25:52.040 woman is in her mid 30s and she's a teacher and she's harvesting her eggs because she's

01:25:57.980 not married and she wants to have a child.

01:26:00.000 And the doctor's telling her, no, I definitely don't want you to get this.

01:26:03.820 And it's a question of whether the Department of Education is going to accept that as an excuse

01:26:08.540 to not be vaccinated.

01:26:10.020 I don't know if we're going to wind up in court in front of a judge, but there is to

01:26:13.780 answer the precise question.

01:26:14.900 There are no cases that I know of right this second that are pending here in the jurisdiction

01:26:19.840 of New York City on a class action level that says, you know, you can't get fired for not

01:26:25.820 getting the vaccine.

01:26:27.080 We saw one case.

01:26:28.480 I feel like it was out of the Midwest.

01:26:30.180 It was a college professor who said, you can't make me because I have natural immunity.

01:26:34.340 And that one settled.

01:26:35.760 It went away.

01:26:36.340 He pushed back in his university and they settled it.

01:26:38.560 But it's going to be interesting question.

01:26:40.500 We just saw Scott Gottlieb out there saying you still need the vaccine, even if you have

01:26:45.220 natural immunity, because natural immunity expires after a while.

01:26:48.140 But, you know, the immunity under the vaccine may expire after a while, too.

01:26:52.200 It's you know, no one's taking a hard look at this.

01:26:55.040 And the absence of a desire for real answers on this is weird and disturbing.

01:27:01.540 Why is everything we rely on coming out of Israel?

01:27:04.640 Right.

01:27:04.840 It's like, thank God for Israel.

01:27:06.320 That's actually doing some studies and research on the vaccines and the data coming in.

01:27:10.760 What about the United States?

01:27:11.780 We used to be the leader in this kind of thing.

01:27:13.340 All right.

01:27:13.500 Want to get in some more?

01:27:14.180 I know you guys got to go in.

01:27:15.760 Well, you got to go now.

01:27:16.360 So I'll let you go, Mark and Arthur.

01:27:17.580 But you guys have been champs.

01:27:18.860 Love you both.

01:27:19.460 Thanks for being here.

01:27:20.200 Love the love the Kelly's Court hours.

01:27:22.480 Bye, guys.

01:27:24.480 Thank you.

01:27:24.780 But wait, we're not done taking calls.

01:27:27.000 So I'm going to get to we'll go down to Tim in Texas.

01:27:29.840 He's got some thoughts on the border crisis.

01:27:32.620 Hey, Tim.

01:27:33.340 Hey, Megan.

01:27:34.100 How are you?

01:27:34.980 I'm good.

01:27:35.360 How are you doing?

01:27:36.240 Doing good.

01:27:37.200 Hey, I just want to let the people of America know, especially, I guess, all the red states.

01:27:41.940 But here in downtown Houston, I was driving by, saw two buses of immigrants just get dropped off.

01:27:48.700 No money, no nothing.

01:27:50.020 They're just standing around just getting dropped off.

01:27:52.280 And it's going to come to any red state near you because they want to fill them up with

01:27:57.900 Democratic voters.

01:27:59.340 And who's the man?

01:28:00.720 Who's the daddy rabbit that can put it into this?

01:28:03.540 How do you know they were immigrants?

01:28:06.720 How do you know?

01:28:08.240 Because they were all from Guatemala.

01:28:12.280 And how do you know that?

01:28:14.720 Because I saw a Guatemalan flag.

01:28:18.660 Oh, well, you know, I don't.

01:28:20.960 But you might be right, because we're getting more and more reports about how this situation

01:28:25.560 in Del Rio, you know, they're emptying out.

01:28:27.940 It's not empty, but they're removing some of the migrants who are there.

01:28:31.320 But they're just moving them elsewhere in Texas, we're told, to other ports and other

01:28:38.580 places.

01:28:38.980 And only a handful have been placed on planes back to Haiti, as the Biden administration

01:28:44.400 is telling us.

01:28:45.360 So it's not impossible that you did see what you think you saw and that, you know, we've

01:28:50.520 been talking about on this show about how if you say you're here for asylum, you want

01:28:53.780 asylum, they give you an asylum date and they say, show up in court on this date.

01:28:57.800 And only 15 percent of people get asylum.

01:29:00.000 And all the other 85 percent are said, well, sorry, denied.

01:29:02.860 And then they're just pushed out the door, but they're not put on a plane or sent back

01:29:07.360 home.

01:29:08.420 They're here.

01:29:09.200 They're here in the United States left to figure out, you know, it's an honor system

01:29:12.080 to go back home, which isn't very smart.

01:29:14.860 They ship, you know, take these immigrants and put them in New York or where all these

01:29:20.060 people are.

01:29:20.580 They're just they're just mad at Texas loading us up.

01:29:23.700 And, you know, it's going to kill our schools, our hospitals.

01:29:26.720 And again, it's supposed to be we the people.

01:29:28.760 I'm a people and I don't want this or at least have a legal way of doing it.

01:29:33.780 But like, you know, there's no daddy rabbit.

01:29:36.180 It's just, you know, we just take it.

01:29:38.540 And it's supposed to be we the people.

01:29:40.520 We talked about this yesterday.

01:29:41.940 We're talking about it's very easy for those of us in New York or in some place that's

01:29:45.860 not along the southern border to say, you know, immigration, we're a nation of immigrants.

01:29:50.160 We don't have to live with illegal immigrants coming across the southern border and cutting

01:29:55.960 up our fences or hurting our kids potentially or stealing our cattle or any one of the number

01:30:01.920 of things.

01:30:02.320 I had a rancher on the show just yesterday who found whose husband found hollow point

01:30:05.500 bullets on her property and they cut holes in her fence.

01:30:08.140 And she sees immigrants coming across all the time, migrants coming across and go doing

01:30:11.460 these bailouts out of these cars and running for it.

01:30:13.660 It's just it's out of control.

01:30:15.340 All right.

01:30:15.460 Listen, we have I think we have Lisa back with us now.

01:30:18.800 Lisa from Georgia.

01:30:20.220 You wanted to offer a comment on Gabby Petito.

01:30:22.160 Yes, hi, Megan.

01:30:24.940 Yeah, I actually my daughter's been missing for eight years or so.

01:30:29.820 I'm really thankful that Petito didn't have to suffer not knowing anything.

01:30:35.840 I absolutely think that these parents of Brian Laundrie, actually, I think he came home,

01:30:42.960 freaked out.

01:30:43.700 I did this horrible thing.

01:30:44.980 I messed up.

01:30:47.800 Sorry, we have a bad connection, but I get what you're saying.

01:30:50.600 You're saying you think that the parents covered for him.

01:30:52.660 And that is certainly how it's looking.

01:30:55.840 I mean, only today we learned or maybe it's late yesterday, but in the last 24 hours, this

01:31:00.480 business about the neighbor reportedly seeing the parents with an RV too small for three

01:31:05.660 people taken off with him.

01:31:08.360 All right.

01:31:08.540 That's what the neighbor is reported to has reported to law enforcement now.

01:31:12.280 And it was days before they reported their son missing.

01:31:15.600 So how it appears right now and things can change is that they gave him a head start and

01:31:22.260 then that in an effort to protect themselves from not getting arrested or in trouble with

01:31:25.560 law enforcement, they then called cops and said he's missing.

01:31:29.340 By the way, the New York Post right now reporting that they spoke to a friend of Brian Laundrie's

01:31:34.640 and that friend said that Brian is very well versed in survival techniques and could easily

01:31:40.360 survive in the wilderness for long periods of time without any help.

01:31:45.320 I guess that's not that's not surprise surprising.

01:31:48.940 Hold on a second.

01:31:49.940 I think we have time for one more.

01:31:51.300 We'll do a quick one.

01:31:51.880 David in North Carolina.

01:31:52.820 You got a thought on the people underneath the bridge in Del Rio.

01:31:55.440 Hey, David.

01:31:56.220 Hey, Megan.

01:31:57.240 Love you.

01:32:00.100 It's so infuriating.

01:32:02.180 It's important to just observe the cynicism, first of all, of the Biden administration,

01:32:08.220 moving these people out from under that bridge, knowing that once the pictures go away, the

01:32:16.900 issue goes away.

01:32:19.020 And also the complicity of corporate media is going to prove that they're right.

01:32:25.540 And it's just after the last four years of any time Trump breathed the wrong thing, being

01:32:31.980 called a liar and then to see Jen Psaki stand up there and just blatantly lie and say they

01:32:39.360 don't intend to stay.

01:32:41.220 OK, sure.

01:32:43.020 And the and the only and the only guy that's and the only guy that's calling them on them,

01:32:47.120 obviously, is Peter Doocy.

01:32:48.680 You know, the other the other, you know, she sit out there and with their mask on and just

01:32:54.120 they've lost interest.

01:32:55.540 I know.

01:32:56.260 God bless Peter Doocy.

01:32:57.360 Thank you.

01:32:57.700 I got to run because we're up against a heartbreak, but I couldn't agree with you more.

01:33:00.480 The media has been disgusting on this story, as so many.

01:33:03.280 Speaking of Fox News, have an exciting announcement for you tomorrow on the show.

01:33:07.360 Tucker Carlson's going to be here.

01:33:09.580 We're going to be covering all the latest news, what it's really like to work at Fox.

01:33:12.600 He and I both have some info on that and lots of personal questions, too.

01:33:16.300 In the meantime, you can download episodes of the show on Apple, Pandora, Stitcher or anywhere

01:33:19.420 you get podcasts.

01:33:20.380 YouTube dot com slash Megan Kelly.

01:33:22.000 If you want to see it.

01:33:23.140 See you tomorrow.

01:33:25.540 Bye.

01:33:26.040 Bye.

01:33:28.140 Bye.

01:33:28.200 Bye.

01:33:50.160 Bye.

01:33:51.160 Bye.

01:33:51.260 Bye.

The Megyn Kelly Show - September 23, 2021

Gabby Petito’s Death, Theranos Fraud Trial, and Britney Spears with Brian Entin, Mark Eiglarsh and Arthur Aidala ｜ Ep. 166

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