The Megyn Kelly Show - Get To Know Trump Trial Jurors, and Absurd Media Coverage of Case, with Vinnie Politan and Jonna Spilbor ｜ Ep. 768

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00:00:31.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:42.840 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:46.040 Viewer advisory. This program is specifically designed to be viewed by adults

00:00:51.280 and therefore may be unsuitable for children under 17.

00:00:54.960 Parental discretion is advised.

00:00:56.680 Not because of anything we will say or do, but because of the perverted press corps. 0.99

00:01:01.460 A special edition of the show today as we bring you all the coverage of the Trump hush money trial,

00:01:07.420 which has morphed into something closer to a hot and heavy romance novel.

00:01:11.600 So we have adjusted our set background accordingly.

00:01:16.640 Yes, what we thought was going to be a criminal trial with some salacious testimony from porn stars and playboy models

00:01:23.420 has indeed kicked off with something X-rated.

00:01:27.020 But it's not the testimony.

00:01:28.480 It's the reporting about Trump sitting bored in the courtroom.

00:01:32.600 Not kidding.

00:01:33.600 The tedium of jury selection, an infamously boring process, has turned into foreplay for the nerd reporters

00:01:43.140 whose beat is normally covering Elizabeth Warren and Mitch McConnell.

00:01:47.640 And let me tell you, they are leaning in.

00:01:50.140 And so now, we bring you the first installment of Fifty Shades of Orange, Trumping Hard.

00:01:57.920 First up, we'll read from the literary works of the Washington Post's Isaac Arnsdorf,

00:02:04.500 a Yale grad whose colorful updates on the former president might just make even Larry Flint blush.

00:02:11.800 But first, a sip of my martini to get us started.

00:02:15.400 And in the mood.

00:02:20.200 Off we go.

00:02:25.180 Quote.

00:02:28.220 Trump appeared to close his eyes and tilt his head from side to side.

00:02:33.640 He then removed a paper from his breast pocket and started examining it.

00:02:39.280 End quote.

00:02:40.240 His eyes closed, you say?

00:02:42.020 Head tilting back, writhing from side to side.

00:02:45.400 Did you mention a breast?

00:02:46.820 Go on.

00:02:48.420 Quote.

00:02:49.480 Trump at one point looked at something on his lawyer's phone.

00:02:53.460 Later, Trump's eyes closed again.

00:02:57.200 And his head occasionally dipped.

00:03:00.360 Slowly.

00:03:01.680 Yes, Isaac.

00:03:03.180 Yes.

00:03:07.800 Now this, from Politico's Erica Orden.

00:03:12.020 While Trump entered the courtroom, he winked at one of the court officers and mouthed.

00:03:18.660 What?

00:03:19.680 He mouthed something?

00:03:20.900 He mouthed something?

00:03:21.580 What?

00:03:22.160 Tell us.

00:03:23.460 He mouthed.

00:03:24.900 How are you?

00:03:26.380 Yes.

00:03:27.300 Yes.

00:03:27.800 The New York Times tells us Trump shifted around in his seat and whispered to his lawyer.

00:03:37.580 A moment ago, it reported he looked bored, but now he's engaged.

00:03:44.140 Oh, yeah.

00:03:44.980 He's into it.

00:03:46.240 Don't stop.

00:03:47.480 He's engaged.

00:03:48.620 Now, chapter from the great Frank Runvian of Law 360.

00:03:56.760 Quote.

00:03:58.100 Trump is sitting at the defense table as his attorneys whisper in his ear.

00:04:03.000 One attorney, Frank tells us, twice referred to when Trump lost his election.

00:04:09.620 Lost his what?

00:04:11.260 Now, Frank continues.

00:04:13.760 Trump's head slowly dropped.

00:04:16.020 His eyes closed.

00:04:17.700 It jerked back upward.

00:04:19.240 He adjusts himself.

00:04:20.760 What?

00:04:20.940 Then, his head droops again.

00:04:25.000 He straightens up, leaning back.

00:04:27.820 His head droops for a third time.

00:04:29.900 He shakes his shoulders.

00:04:32.080 Eyes closed still.

00:04:34.240 His head drops.

00:04:38.380 OMG. 0.99

00:04:40.320 What in the actual F is this drivel? 0.98

00:04:43.460 The Trump trial? 0.96

00:04:44.580 Or Cinemax latest Trump Does Downtown?

00:04:46.960 All of which reinforces a media lesson we have learned time and time again. 0.98

00:04:53.500 There is no porn for the media quite like Trump porn. 0.91

00:04:57.300 They can take a head nod, a glance at a phone, or even a catnap in the middle of a mind-numbing 0.99

00:05:03.700 jury selection and turn it into Trump and Grind. 0.92

00:05:07.280 Hide the children.

00:05:08.540 And this is before we've gotten to Stormy or the Playboy Playmate or the ex-con.

00:05:13.580 Just wait until we get the case on the Trump insurrection.

00:05:21.080 Joining me now, Vinnie Politan, lead anchor at Court TV and a former prosecutor, and Giannis

00:05:26.800 Bilbo, criminal defense attorney and founding attorney of Giannis Bilbo Law.

00:05:33.600 Vinnie, Gianna, welcome to you both.

00:05:36.480 Vinnie, I apologize.

00:05:37.680 You don't know me that well, so that still does a lot to dump on you there.

00:05:41.020 Gianna, you're not surprised.

00:05:44.300 Simmer down.

00:05:44.980 Simmer down, Megan.

00:05:46.160 Simmer down.

00:05:47.380 You tell me, am I wrong?

00:05:48.960 I mean, have you ever heard such accounts of frickin' jury selection?

00:05:56.060 They're so over the top.

00:05:58.120 At Court TV, we cover jury selection from time to time.

00:06:02.960 Usually we don't because it's kind of slow moving.

00:06:05.560 It's absolutely important for the lawyers.

00:06:08.460 These are the people who will decide the case.

00:06:10.860 But in terms of what are you taking from it, there's not a lot to take from it.

00:06:17.860 And what you just read and the description of it is the same description you could have

00:06:23.320 at any jury selection moment with any defendant in any courtroom from coast to coast.

00:06:29.460 So perhaps making it out to be a little bit more-

00:06:32.460 Except normally, Gianna, the way it would read is the defendant appeared tired.

00:06:37.140 He conferred with counsel.

00:06:38.760 Period.

00:06:39.560 Like, only in the case of Donald Trump do we have to go motion by motion.

00:06:44.900 He jerked.

00:06:46.160 The breast pocket.

00:06:47.660 The whisper.

00:06:48.660 There was an actual tweet yesterday from Newsweek, and it wasn't just Newsweek.

00:06:53.560 The Hill.

00:06:54.460 No, The Hill.

00:06:55.100 Forget me.

00:06:55.500 And it wasn't just them.

00:06:56.600 As follows.

00:06:58.200 Trump just looked at something on a cell phone before handing it to his attorney during his trial.

00:07:05.760 Oh, stop the presses! 0.80

00:07:07.920 He looked at a phone!

00:07:09.800 Like, what are we doing, right?

00:07:11.740 They're just desperate to fill their 24-7 cable news cycle. 0.99

00:07:16.940 And everything Trump does to them, it is like porn. 0.67

00:07:20.360 They can't pull themselves away.

00:07:21.620 When you cover jury selection on Court TV, it's about who's making it onto this jury.

00:07:27.200 What are they saying?

00:07:28.420 There's very little attention paid to the defendant unless there is something noteworthy happening.

00:07:33.660 And this is not noteworthy.

00:07:35.520 What's noteworthy is, is what are the answers that these jurors are giving?

00:07:39.500 What are the rulings the judge is making about whether or not people should be bumped off of the selection because of whatever bias they may or may not have?

00:07:47.840 Those are the issues that we generally cover during jury selection.

00:07:51.620 Not glances at phones or head nods or whispers.

00:07:56.200 Or mouthing, how are you?

00:07:59.080 To a court guard.

00:08:00.500 Hello.

00:08:00.840 So he behaved like a human.

00:08:02.620 Like, this is only news in this bizarre Trump obsession media cycle.

00:08:07.380 I do want to talk about the jury so far.

00:08:11.360 So they've seated seven, Vinny.

00:08:13.240 So far, they need five more.

00:08:14.760 And then they need six alternates as well, 18 in total.

00:08:17.900 And let's talk about the profile of the ones who they've seated so far.

00:08:22.160 And you tell me what you think about how this is going for Trump and the prosecution.

00:08:27.280 One, the foreperson, which I guess is just juror one, works in sales.

00:08:32.040 Let's talk about him one by one.

00:08:33.420 Works in sales.

00:08:34.100 Some college.

00:08:34.880 Enjoys the outdoors.

00:08:36.100 He's originally from Ireland.

00:08:37.880 Married.

00:08:38.360 No kids.

00:08:38.940 Lives in West Harlem.

00:08:40.340 He reads the New York Times and the Daily Mail and watches some Fox News and MSNBC.

00:08:45.380 This has got everybody chatting that he put down both Fox and MSNBC.

00:08:49.720 And I heard CNN saying, don't panic if you're against Trump, that he said Fox News.

00:08:55.640 Because he might just be referring to Fox Local, which, you know, that's not the Fox News.

00:09:00.160 What do you make of that profile?

00:09:02.380 Well, the first thing that's shocking me about the whole process is how quickly it's moving.

00:09:07.000 I mean, we've got seven already.

00:09:08.520 I cover trials with people who are not celebrities, people who are not known by anyone, and it takes longer to find jurors.

00:09:18.940 And in this case, we're finding jurors who don't have a strong opinion about one of the most famous men in America, one of the most divisive men in America that everyone has an opinion on.

00:09:30.980 And don't tell me that New Yorkers don't have strong opinions.

00:09:33.540 They have strong opinions on everything, from pizza to bagels to, obviously, President Trump.

00:09:39.340 So how quickly this is going, seven in one day, shocked me.

00:09:44.240 But with this particular juror, and this is one thing I know a lot of attorneys talk about, which are, in high-profile cases, are stealth jurors.

00:09:54.000 Jurors who will say what they need to say to make sure they get on the jury.

00:10:00.740 Like, who watches Fox and MSNBC that's not in television news?

00:10:08.540 That's exactly right.

00:10:10.200 You're nailing it.

00:10:11.300 I completely agree with that.

00:10:12.500 I said this to my team.

00:10:13.400 I'm like, we're the only ones who watch both of these.

00:10:16.300 No normal human watches both Fox and MSNBC unless it's the occasional hate watch of one or the other.

00:10:22.860 And, you know, this guy's profile to me that he reads the New York Times, he says the Daily Mail.

00:10:30.000 Okay, that's just, that's a fun, newsy online site.

00:10:32.840 But it's not, it's more right-leaning.

00:10:34.620 But, you know, you go there for other things.

00:10:36.320 A lot of people go there for other things like celebrity news.

00:10:39.040 And nothing about the Journal or the New York Post suggests that the one he's lying about is the Fox News

00:10:44.300 and that anybody excited on the Trump team should probably calm down.

00:10:48.820 Living in West Harlem, originally from Ireland, married, no kids, New York Times, MSNBC.

00:10:56.160 I don't know.

00:10:56.900 I would say not ideal for Trump.

00:10:58.600 What do you think?

00:10:59.440 No, probably not.

00:11:00.700 And this is why they need somebody who's immediately checking all of these jurors' regular social media accounts

00:11:07.900 and all of the fake social media accounts.

00:11:10.260 See, that's another thing that goes along with being, you know, a stealth juror.

00:11:14.240 They sometimes call them a Trojan juror.

00:11:16.780 Like, these people could have 18 different social media accounts.

00:11:21.200 Fortunately, they probably didn't know that they were going to be part of the pool for Trump

00:11:26.380 until they got to court, so they couldn't maybe delete some things.

00:11:30.000 But this is why you have to go behind the scenes to figure out who these people really are.

00:11:35.360 And listen, I've been saying this all along.

00:11:37.640 Donald Trump cannot only get a fair trial in New York.

00:11:40.760 He can't get a fair trial on the planet.

00:11:43.780 So how the heck they have already ceded seven as of yesterday,

00:11:48.100 with one saving grace, two saving graces being two of them are attorneys.

00:11:53.100 And that might be very helpful to Donald Trump.

00:11:56.440 You know, to your point, one defense attorney, Mr. Blanche, confronted a potential juror here.

00:12:04.080 I'm not sure who we're quoting this from, but forgive me because I don't have the news source in front of me.

00:12:08.160 But they said that he confronted him about a Facebook post in which he celebrated

00:12:12.840 that Trump lost a court battle over his travel ban and said, referring to Trump,

00:12:18.180 get him out and lock him up.

00:12:20.600 The judge agreed with Todd Blanche that this person, albeit years ago,

00:12:23.960 had already expressed a desire for Trump to be imprisoned.

00:12:27.020 This juror was dismissed for cause.

00:12:28.740 But keep in mind, these jurors didn't even get in front of the lawyers for questioning

00:12:32.140 unless they said, I can be fair.

00:12:36.380 Half the jury pool said, I admit I can't be fair.

00:12:38.960 This guy was like, I can be fair.

00:12:41.360 Get me in there.

00:12:42.340 OK, this is why we have one year to figure out who's a liar.

00:12:46.680 Let's move on to the next one.

00:12:48.080 Next juror selected for the Trump trial.

00:12:49.920 A young black woman who has friends with strong opinions about Trump.

00:12:53.740 He has friends with strong opinions about him.

00:12:56.220 She says she is not a political person, though,

00:12:58.780 and she appreciates that the former president speaks his mind.

00:13:02.020 She teaches English language in a public charter school system.

00:13:05.000 She has a master's degree in education.

00:13:06.980 And I'd want her off if I were Trump. 0.99

00:13:09.580 They don't want master's degree.

00:13:11.100 OK, but sometimes you don't have a choice.

00:13:13.600 She's not married and she doesn't have any kids.

00:13:15.700 She said she tries to avoid political conversations and doesn't really care for the news.

00:13:20.600 Per CNN, she said she wasn't aware that Trump is facing charges in other criminal cases.

00:13:28.120 Now, can I just say, Vinny, I actually know people like this.

00:13:31.260 I know people who are just not news consumers, black and white, who are not political,

00:13:36.520 who just kind of go about, you know, it's not our world, but it's there.

00:13:39.660 I believe such a person may exist, but I don't believe such a person would generally be favorably inclined to Trump.

00:13:47.960 What do you think?

00:13:49.280 Yeah, this is look at the overall pool, though.

00:13:52.820 I mean, where you're you're coming from.

00:13:54.180 You're coming from New York.

00:13:55.000 So it's a problem to begin with.

00:13:56.680 So it's like you've got to pick the best of the worst or allow the best of the worst on charter school.

00:14:03.600 I think the charter school thing was probably huge for Donald Trump's side saying, well, maybe there's just a little bit of hope, you know, there.

00:14:11.940 But anyone in education and, you know, generally speaking, though, right, when I was a prosecutor,

00:14:17.740 my fellow prosecutors, when I was a young attorney said, get the teachers off your jury, get the teachers off your jury.

00:14:24.720 They see they see the good in everyone.

00:14:27.020 But I think I don't think that's the case.

00:14:30.640 Well, in criminal defendants.

00:14:32.500 Right.

00:14:32.800 So get rid of the teachers. 0.94

00:14:34.460 But in this case, I think it works in the inverse for this particular criminal defendant.

00:14:39.520 Yeah, you got it.

00:14:41.680 You're not supposed to consider race or gender or age in striking a juror.

00:14:46.700 But there's zero chance both sides didn't factor in the reality that she's a black woman and that overwhelmingly in America, black women don't like Trump, though there are many who do.

00:14:55.980 Those are the exceptions, not the rule.

00:14:57.600 If you look at the general polling, but she must she must have balanced out, at least to be not terrible in the Trump team's view. 0.96

00:15:05.440 OK, let's do number three. 0.56

00:15:07.060 An Oregon native and out.

00:15:10.420 No, no, Oregon native who works as a corporate lawyer.

00:15:15.600 OK, rehabilitating corporate lawyer.

00:15:17.820 You could be more right leaning.

00:15:19.120 I don't know.

00:15:19.540 You know, the system, you know, you you make some money.

00:15:22.360 Once you start to earn money, the government takes half of it.

00:15:24.780 You get a little bit more conservative.

00:15:26.000 Some people at a big firm, he says he enjoys hiking.

00:15:30.480 I think it's he hiking and running.

00:15:32.480 He's lived in Chelsea for five years.

00:15:35.160 You can live a lot of places in Manhattan.

00:15:36.820 Chelsea's much more liberal, very gay area.

00:15:39.420 But not I used to live in Chelsea.

00:15:40.500 I'm not gay.

00:15:41.280 Not that it matters, but it might say something about politics.

00:15:44.420 He also appears to be a man who likes to hike and run.

00:15:47.980 OK, he says he reads The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal and Google for his news.

00:15:52.620 Younger man, never married, no kids.

00:15:55.120 Jonna, what do you make of him?

00:15:55.960 All right.

00:15:58.140 The only thing I like about this guy is that he's a lawyer, which means maybe he will be able to actually follow the law, which in this case is very favorable to Donald Trump, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a little while.

00:16:12.000 Other than that, everything else to me screams, get him off.

00:16:17.040 And that's another thing.

00:16:17.980 You know, when a lot of these jurors are saying they get their news from Google, like I'm confused.

00:16:23.200 Were they just giving a given a list and they checked boxes or did they actually kind of fill in the blank?

00:16:28.380 Yeah, here's where I get my news.

00:16:29.640 So I don't even know how reliable that part of the screening process is.

00:16:35.080 But I do like the fact that he's a lawyer.

00:16:36.980 Maybe he can go back to his law school roots and figure out that, you know, look, prosecutor is not always right and the defense isn't always wrong and might be the one, might be the one holdout on this jury, which is all Donald Trump really needs.

00:16:51.180 I wouldn't feel good about his Wall Street Journal reading, Vinny, if I were Team Trump, because he works in corporate law.

00:16:58.900 You have to keep an eye on what's happening in the market and in the business world.

00:17:04.200 And of course, if you live in New York, you're going to you're going to read the Journal.

00:17:06.940 But his subscription to the Times may or may not say something.

00:17:09.500 I am also subscribed to the New York Times and the Journal and the New York Post.

00:17:14.340 And I like I'd be looking for the like we all love the New York Post.

00:17:17.500 Most New Yorkers love the New York Post, even if they don't love its political bent.

00:17:20.760 It's just a fun paper to read.

00:17:22.400 There are some who not only don't read the Post, but actually read the New York Daily News.

00:17:26.060 Oh, my God, I would I would use a peremptory on such a person, person, Vinny.

00:17:30.620 But what do you make of Mr. Oregon native?

00:17:33.200 No, not great for the defense, not great for the defense at all.

00:17:36.820 And I would say this about lawyers in general.

00:17:39.320 Like.

00:17:40.580 I have I have a lot of lawyers on my show every night, night after night.

00:17:45.240 And I would say 90 percent of them do not like Donald Trump, just period.

00:17:50.800 They just do not like them.

00:17:52.060 It doesn't matter if they're Republican or Democrat, they do not like him.

00:17:57.220 So I think lawyers in general are bad for this defendant.

00:18:01.920 Lawyers on juries basically take over.

00:18:05.580 But now you have if you have two of them, how is that work?

00:18:09.360 But the problem is that they get a little extra power inside that jury room.

00:18:14.900 And I would be very, very scared of this guy if I was the defense.

00:18:19.200 Can I just ask you a follow up on that?

00:18:20.440 But what do you does the rule hold that lawyers, you know, in your experience, generally don't like Trump.

00:18:26.220 In a case like this, where we three as lawyers know this is a big stretch legally to.

00:18:32.340 Well, I think I think this is right.

00:18:34.360 Right.

00:18:34.820 I think some criminal defense attorneys are being honest with themselves.

00:18:39.380 Right.

00:18:39.860 And looking at this case and saying, well, wait a minute.

00:18:42.000 Wait a minute.

00:18:42.520 This isn't this isn't the way it should should go.

00:18:45.160 And I'm and I'm hearing that a little bit more from criminal defense attorneys.

00:18:49.640 But I think the profession in general is is almost as liberal as our profession in the media.

00:18:58.220 I mean, they're one.

00:18:59.060 They're almost one in the same.

00:19:01.000 It's true.

00:19:02.100 If you had to pick a lawyer, I guess a corporate lawyer at a big firm would be better.

00:19:05.940 But, yeah, not ideal.

00:19:08.120 OK, next, a female software engineer at a, quote, large broadcast company. 1.00

00:19:14.140 Alert.

00:19:15.160 The speculation, though not confirmed, is that it's Disney, who recently graduated from college.

00:19:23.080 No.

00:19:24.680 Recent college graduate and a female.

00:19:27.920 Hard no. 1.00

00:19:28.780 If you're team Trump, she lives with three roommates in Chelsea, says she has no strong

00:19:34.440 feelings about Trump one way or the other.

00:19:36.740 I don't believe that.

00:19:37.920 I don't not with this profile, not fresh out of college.

00:19:40.960 She is not married, has no kids, gets her news from The New York Times, Google, Facebook

00:19:46.640 and TikTok.

00:19:48.540 He's effed.

00:19:49.460 That's a badger.

00:19:50.800 Vinny, am I wrong?

00:19:52.400 No, that's I'm picturing.

00:19:54.920 What was that show called?

00:19:55.880 Girls? 0.96

00:19:56.440 Is that what it was called?

00:19:57.280 Years ago on HBO.

00:19:58.260 Yeah, that's who she is. 0.91

00:20:00.220 That's who she is.

00:20:00.960 Would you put any of them on your jury?

00:20:02.480 No way.

00:20:04.380 Fresh out of college, Donna, and not married with female roommates? 0.59

00:20:09.420 No.

00:20:11.020 She's Biden's base.

00:20:12.860 That's who he's, you know, stumping to every day.

00:20:16.260 Don't have to pay back your student loans.

00:20:19.860 Disney, you know, no, this is a really hard no.

00:20:23.100 That's why I wish there were cameras in this courtroom for jury selection.

00:20:27.260 She's like, how, what is Donald Trump's attorney doing?

00:20:30.360 Is he jumping up and down?

00:20:31.720 Is he, is he just, has he given up?

00:20:33.640 Like, hard no on this one.

00:20:36.000 He's showing Trump his phone and they're whispering.

00:20:40.400 Okay.

00:20:40.860 Here's the next one.

00:20:42.060 We've got two more.

00:20:43.520 Two or three.

00:20:44.220 Three.

00:20:44.380 An IT consultant, Lower East Side resident, who said he found Trump, quote, fascinating

00:20:50.480 and mysterious.

00:20:52.980 I love those words.

00:20:54.700 I'll tell you why in a second.

00:20:56.080 So many people are set off one way or the other.

00:20:59.060 And that is interesting.

00:21:00.560 Some have described him as 40 years old.

00:21:03.320 Others as an older, older, like older than 40, Puerto Rican man who's married with adult

00:21:09.240 children.

00:21:09.520 So we don't know.

00:21:10.380 We're not exactly clear on how old he is.

00:21:12.320 He says his hobby is this family and did not indicate any strong feelings about politics.

00:21:17.800 So a friend of mine once told me that in liberal circles, like she went to this elite school and

00:21:23.800 she sees all these people from the school still, and she's conservative in, in these liberal

00:21:27.800 circles, when she wants to say something about like someone political, but she knows she'll

00:21:32.900 get burned if she gives her true opinion.

00:21:34.940 She just says, fascinating.

00:21:37.220 He's fascinating or it's fascinating.

00:21:40.300 And here is this guy who asked his feelings about Donald Trump.

00:21:43.940 And he's like, he's fascinating and mysterious.

00:21:47.640 Well played, IT consultant.

00:21:49.560 Well played.

00:21:50.780 I'm having difficulty reading this one.

00:21:52.600 Vinny, thoughts?

00:21:54.080 I think it's a good potential juror for the defense.

00:21:59.040 It's someone who's a wild card.

00:22:00.720 And I think in any criminal case, because prosecutors have to prove it to all 12 jurors,

00:22:05.900 right?

00:22:06.360 So he's not getting 12 to say not guilty.

00:22:09.660 I can't imagine that happening in New York.

00:22:12.680 So you're looking for wild cards.

00:22:14.480 And to me, this is a wild card.

00:22:16.180 We don't know.

00:22:17.720 But he's living a very, as conservative a profile as you could have in Manhattan, being

00:22:24.040 sort of like a family guy.

00:22:25.380 Um, so I, I think it was a good, um, choice to not bounce this one for the defense.

00:22:33.400 Um, I'm almost surprised.

00:22:34.320 And if he's a Hispanic male, which again, we're not sure, but if they tend to like Trump in

00:22:39.000 the same way, we can kind of, if we're just playing the odds, black women, probably not 1.00

00:22:42.400 so much choosing between a woman and a man.

00:22:44.540 You'd probably go for the man if you're Trump, um, and it consultant, that's a good job,

00:22:49.960 but it's not, you know, corporate lawyer.

00:22:52.220 You're not so highbrow that you don't have to worry about money or your paycheck, many.

00:22:56.980 Yeah.

00:22:57.260 You're, you're working hard.

00:22:58.500 You're a hardworking family guy.

00:23:01.200 And I think that's the best you can get, uh, in Manhattan.

00:23:05.520 Chana, it's like, um, they used to say outside of the Grateful Dead concerts.

00:23:08.500 I'm looking for a miracle.

00:23:09.620 Just need one, you know, just one ticket looking for a miracle.

00:23:12.760 Well, that's what team Trump is looking for.

00:23:14.420 Just one miracle in this sea of liberals to get somebody who might be more right leaning.

00:23:20.180 I don't know whether that's it, but let me ask you about the next one.

00:23:22.780 You tell me whether she is his miracle, a female oncology nurse at Memorial Sloan Kettering

00:23:28.700 who lives on the upper East side.

00:23:31.640 She has a fight fiance.

00:23:33.020 She's a native New Yorker.

00:23:34.780 Oh, that scares me.

00:23:36.360 She reads the New York times and watches CNN.

00:23:40.160 Oh God.

00:23:41.520 Oh,

00:23:41.960 no, no, no.

00:23:43.580 So, you know, she was going good.

00:23:45.800 It was all going well until New York times and definitely not CNN, unless she travels 0.95

00:23:52.060 a lot and she spends a lot of time in airports.

00:23:54.020 That's really the only time that I watched CNN.

00:23:57.380 Um, so yeah.

00:23:58.300 And here again, like the whole news thing, it's amazing to me just how much of the liberal

00:24:04.920 media, this jury pool so far is consuming.

00:24:08.040 And I guess, you know, going back to my previous point, I guess Trump's attorney has to be like,

00:24:12.840 all right, well, I got to do what I got to do.

00:24:15.720 And regardless of what news they're consuming, let's look at some of these other factors.

00:24:21.100 I like the fact that she's an oncology nurse.

00:24:23.280 I like the fact that she's a native New Yorker because, you know, she might be more familiar

00:24:28.100 with Donald Trump, the pre-president Donald Trump than some of the other people that might

00:24:32.640 help him, the apprentice Donald Trump.

00:24:35.420 I don't know.

00:24:36.080 Yeah.

00:24:36.280 That may happen.

00:24:37.440 Fair point.

00:24:38.440 Fair point.

00:24:39.360 Can I say something else about the native New Yorker that I think is important?

00:24:41.880 Yeah.

00:24:42.340 That I think, and I'm with John on this, is native New Yorkers.

00:24:47.240 So you're born and bred here, right?

00:24:50.140 Versus the people who come to New York.

00:24:52.280 And the people who come to New York come to New York for a reason.

00:24:54.900 So I would, as a general rule, say, native New Yorker, perhaps you have a better chance

00:25:01.100 than someone who purposely left wherever they were from to come to New York.

00:25:07.260 Why?

00:25:08.820 Well, we know what's in New York.

00:25:12.000 Like, we know that the people who leave where they are to come to New York want to be in 0.97

00:25:16.880 the city.

00:25:17.640 They want to be there.

00:25:18.880 It's like you're not born into it.

00:25:21.340 You want to be around that atmosphere.

00:25:23.680 You want to be in that air of politics.

00:25:26.620 That's where you're more comfortable.

00:25:28.640 You know, you could be from Georgia, where I'm living now.

00:25:31.840 And someone who's born in the country in Georgia, not comfortable there, wants to move to the

00:25:36.200 city.

00:25:36.760 And I think someone who purposely makes that choice to be there and wasn't there as sort

00:25:42.120 of a birthright, I think, is slightly better opportunity than someone who purposely moved

00:25:49.000 to New York City.

00:25:50.920 Okay.

00:25:51.040 Last but not least, another lawyer.

00:25:53.680 This guy is a civil litigator.

00:25:55.360 So it's a trial attorney for civil claims like you, Jonna, who in his spare time likes

00:26:01.720 to spend time outdoors and with his two children, lives on the Upper East Side, originally from

00:26:07.640 North Carolina.

00:26:08.740 That's good for Trump.

00:26:10.460 Trump told the court that he reads the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the New

00:26:14.880 York Post.

00:26:15.880 And before you get too excited for Trump, the Washington Post, he said, and you know, he's

00:26:21.140 living in New York and he's not from D.C. and he's reading the Washington Post, which

00:26:24.580 again, that's only media people do that unless you're a lefty, in my experience.

00:26:28.660 He says that he has political views as to the Trump presidency.

00:26:32.220 That's it.

00:26:33.600 And that he thinks there were likely Trump admin policies with which he disagreed.

00:26:40.060 So somewhat opaque.

00:26:42.900 I'm not sure I'd be lured too much in by the New York Post.

00:26:46.380 You know, it's a high and low because who the hell reads both the New York Times and

00:26:51.400 the Washington Post that isn't a liberal, Vinny?

00:26:54.620 Yeah, this is not a good one.

00:26:57.100 In terms of being a civil litigator, I'm more interested in what type of civil litigation

00:27:03.600 is he doing?

00:27:04.580 Is he doing insurance defense?

00:27:06.340 I would be more comfortable with someone doing insurance defense than a plaintiff's attorney

00:27:11.540 necessarily.

00:27:12.540 Or defense in general.

00:27:13.760 Right, right.

00:27:14.480 I think, I just think that, I would want to know that.

00:27:18.140 But everything else is not looking great for this.

00:27:21.520 And again, attorneys in general, they take over those deliberations.

00:27:26.200 The other 10 are going to be leaning on these two to lead them through the process.

00:27:31.000 So you've got to be very comfortable with a lawyer, I think, because of the power they

00:27:36.760 have in that room.

00:27:38.100 The problem, John, for Trump is that, and many of our audience members are probably already

00:27:44.060 know this, but Trump today was out there saying, I can't believe we weren't able to strike more

00:27:48.460 jurors.

00:27:49.120 But the problem is you have these peremptory challenges, and then you have challenges for

00:27:52.900 cause.

00:27:54.040 And your peremptory ones, where you can just bounce them for no reason, you don't have to

00:27:58.400 tell the judge why you're bouncing them, are limited in number.

00:28:01.700 And I think each side has used six, and they only get 10?

00:28:08.500 Do I have my numbers right?

00:28:10.040 Correct.

00:28:10.600 You are correct.

00:28:11.580 They can only bounce four more without telling the judge why they're bouncing him or her.

00:28:16.640 All the others have to be for cause.

00:28:19.440 And you tell me, John, I was saying like, judge, they read the Washington Post and the New

00:28:24.480 York Times.

00:28:25.600 That's not going to do it.

00:28:26.920 That's true.

00:28:29.480 And when you're selecting a jury, you don't want to waste your challenges, because you

00:28:34.780 don't know who's coming in the room.

00:28:37.220 You don't know who's going to be seated in that box that you're going to question.

00:28:39.880 So you kind of have to hedge your bets a little bit.

00:28:42.760 And that's probably what's going on here.

00:28:44.640 And based on what this judge has ruled thus far up to this point, not just in jury selection,

00:28:51.140 he's not going to err on the side of Donald Trump.

00:28:55.700 And if I can talk about this last year specifically, I'm all for attorneys being on the jury panel.

00:29:01.220 I think attorneys should take over if they get seated on a jury. 0.93

00:29:04.460 But this guy, this guy is a little scary because he knew how to stay middle of the darn road. 0.93

00:29:11.760 And those are the jurors that are trying to be jurors. 0.90

00:29:17.060 What attorney do you guys know?

00:29:18.900 Both lawyers.

00:29:19.900 What attorney do you know who'd want to be on any jury unless it's Donald Trump or maybe

00:29:26.480 Johnny Depp?

00:29:27.760 Nobody.

00:29:28.420 But we got one.

00:29:29.480 I wanted to be on a jury.

00:29:31.040 I just served on a jury.

00:29:32.600 I just served on a jury.

00:29:34.480 You did not.

00:29:35.640 Oh, my goodness.

00:29:37.200 Greatest experience ever.

00:29:39.060 What kind of case was it?

00:29:40.460 I had a plaintiff's case, and it was a man who had three fingertips severed and was suing

00:29:47.560 the doctor who successfully reattached two of them, but they were transposed.

00:29:52.420 So his middle fingertip was on his pointer finger.

00:29:55.480 Oh, my God.

00:29:58.300 No liability.

00:30:00.020 What?

00:30:01.060 No liability.

00:30:01.740 You voted for the defense?

00:30:03.340 No, I ended up being an alternate.

00:30:05.820 Oh, wah, wah. 0.99

00:30:06.820 That's alternate.

00:30:07.960 It's like going to the prom with your cousin.

00:30:10.780 Like, yeah, I like my cousin, but I don't want to go to the prom.

00:30:13.700 Like, it was horrible.

00:30:14.980 But they found, my fellow jurors found no liability because the two fingertips survived.

00:30:20.680 And they still worked.

00:30:22.620 Oh, my God.

00:30:23.340 It makes it so much harder to give somebody the finger.

00:30:25.860 Which one do you lift now?

00:30:26.920 Which what's the dominant part of the middle finger?

00:30:30.300 It's unclear.

00:30:32.340 I served on a jury years ago.

00:30:34.360 I was co-anchoring.

00:30:35.360 Jonna, you and I were together back in these days.

00:30:37.300 I was co-anchoring America's Newsroom with Hemmer.

00:30:40.140 This is back.

00:30:40.760 We launched that show in 07, and it went through 10 with the two of us at the helm.

00:30:44.800 And I got called for jury duty like we all do, and I got seated.

00:30:47.880 And I disclosed that I had just done 10 years at Jones Day.

00:30:51.020 And normally, they'd say a corporate litigator at Jones Day.

00:30:53.320 That's bad for the defense.

00:30:55.220 This is a criminal trial.

00:30:56.720 Somebody like me would get bounced.

00:30:57.820 The prosecution was like, she's good.

00:30:59.700 We're good.

00:31:00.180 And I've been very much more prosecution-oriented in my commentary anyway.

00:31:04.940 So I would have thought the defense would have bounced me.

00:31:07.220 But you know what happened?

00:31:08.340 The defense lawyer, when he got up there to do the voir dire of the prospective jurors,

00:31:12.340 including me, said, Ms. Kelly, crossing his arms, if I put you on this jury, will you

00:31:21.860 put me on TV?

00:31:26.520 Sense of humor.

00:31:27.400 That happened.

00:31:28.580 That happened.

00:31:29.500 I remember just laughing.

00:31:31.180 And in my head, I'm thinking, kind of depends on how you do.

00:31:33.960 You know, like, are you a good talker?

00:31:35.760 Like, you know what?

00:31:36.640 Anyway, we all found against his client and found his client guilty because it was very

00:31:42.380 clear he was.

00:31:42.960 It was a drug case.

00:31:44.100 Anyway, this so far is not looking good for Trump.

00:31:47.520 I agree with you guys.

00:31:48.380 He's doing the best he can with this jury pool.

00:31:51.720 There's, like, at least some ambiguity about each one of them or at least one thing to

00:31:56.820 hope for.

00:31:57.500 But I don't know.

00:31:59.380 Just keep in mind, audience.

00:32:00.940 Need one miracle.

00:32:02.180 Just one miracle in order to set this off.

00:32:05.460 Last but not least, he was accused of juror intimidation by this judge yesterday.

00:32:10.220 I thought this was rather extraordinary.

00:32:11.380 We pulled a soundbite of The New York Times' Suzanne Craig on MSNBC explaining what happened.

00:32:18.680 Take a listen.

00:32:19.520 It's not five.

00:32:20.280 The juror, juror number one, had taken a video at a distance of what looked like a celebration

00:32:26.200 in the streets of New York for when Trump lost in 2020.

00:32:30.080 I think that was it.

00:32:31.040 And it showed that she was biased.

00:32:32.780 And there was some language that suggested that she might have a bias.

00:32:36.460 She said she happened to take the video.

00:32:38.580 She thought it was a very New York moment, and she posted it.

00:32:41.820 We didn't have the cameras on, so we didn't have a visual of Donald Trump at this point

00:32:45.420 from the overflow room that I sit in.

00:32:47.860 We have closed-circuit TVs.

00:32:49.640 But the judge had, there was some back and forth between the lawyers, and then the judge

00:32:54.220 actually admonished the former president because he was huffing and puffing and gesturing

00:32:59.320 towards the juror.

00:33:01.860 He said it was, the judge said it was completely inappropriate, and he said, I won't tolerate it.

00:33:05.320 I won't have any jurors intimidated in this courtroom.

00:33:08.580 And his lawyer had to go speak to him.

00:33:10.280 So that was, like, a moment.

00:33:13.480 Hmm.

00:33:14.480 Shana, what do you make of that exchange?

00:33:18.720 You know, what I take away from the exchange is just how much I do not have respect for

00:33:25.180 the judge presiding over this case.

00:33:27.480 And maybe that's not a popular opinion, but, you know, look, I've sat next to clients during

00:33:32.580 jury selection.

00:33:33.780 They have to talk to you.

00:33:35.220 Sometimes they're too loud in any sort of trial situation.

00:33:38.440 Sometimes they're not.

00:33:39.780 You know, this judge needs to get off Donald Trump's back, like, for God's sake.

00:33:46.380 So I don't think it really was a moment that this reporter was talking about.

00:33:49.800 It was just another way that this judge could wield some sort of weird power over Donald Trump

00:33:54.740 in his courtroom.

00:33:55.500 Mm-hmm.

00:33:56.380 What's weird, Vinny, is so just to clarify, it appears that this woman trying to get on 0.97

00:34:00.580 the jury, it was found that she had made two Facebook posts the day of the 2020 presidential

00:34:06.760 election.

00:34:07.320 And she had previously said she had no biases against Donald Trump, but the posts were of

00:34:15.600 people celebrating the fact that he had lost.

00:34:19.500 And she tried to say to the judge, the juror perspective, she just wanted to capture, quote,

00:34:26.820 a New York City celebratory moment, likening the cheers to the nightly celebrations for health

00:34:32.760 care workers during the COVID-19 pandemic.

00:34:36.060 She was dismissed appropriately.

00:34:39.120 But that's another instance of somebody, in my view, lying to get on the jury.

00:34:43.320 And Trump, when she was being cross-examined on all this, allegedly uttered something who

00:34:50.120 was 12 feet away from him.

00:34:52.240 And the judge said to the Trump lawyer, your client was audibly uttering something.

00:34:57.400 I don't know what he was uttering.

00:34:59.400 So if you don't know what he was uttering, why are you accusing him of witness or juror

00:35:05.940 intimidation?

00:35:07.600 Yeah, that's problematic.

00:35:08.600 Now, part of our system of justice is that criminal defendants are supposed to participate

00:35:14.120 in their own defense.

00:35:16.260 It's their life that is on the line, their liberty that's on the line here.

00:35:21.980 So that's why they're there.

00:35:23.640 And that's why they have to be there.

00:35:25.040 Now, the level of how loud your voice can be when speaking with your attorney, I don't

00:35:30.960 know.

00:35:31.200 If he says something directly to a juror, I get it.

00:35:34.200 But if you're communicating with your attorney, I don't know.

00:35:38.800 I don't know.

00:35:39.040 I'd have to see it.

00:35:40.460 And we need to put cameras in the courtroom and broadcast.

00:35:43.640 Yes.

00:35:44.140 But the state of New York-

00:35:45.580 At least audio, Vinny, right?

00:35:46.580 At least audio.

00:35:47.320 No, no.

00:35:48.380 Video and audio.

00:35:50.780 New York used to permit cameras.

00:35:52.940 The law, there was a sunset provision, and then they never allowed him back in.

00:35:58.120 To me, it's about transparency.

00:36:00.260 And in a case like this, this is the exact case that needs to be broadcast because of

00:36:06.520 the nature of it.

00:36:07.400 You're getting secondhand reports about it, number one, so no one can actually see it.

00:36:11.580 Number two, you want to trust the system.

00:36:14.580 How do you trust a system that hides what's happening, right?

00:36:17.780 Yeah.

00:36:18.120 So I don't understand that.

00:36:20.080 To me, that's another big problem in all of this.

00:36:23.500 Okay.

00:36:23.780 One other thing on the Trump case.

00:36:26.180 So Trump, at the end of the day, keeps coming out and making statements, Jonna.

00:36:29.340 And yesterday, he made a statement about- he was trying to say, how is this turning into

00:36:36.900 like, you know, I doctored my corporate books?

00:36:40.520 What he did was he or his team paid Michael Cohen the $130,000 that Cohen had paid to

00:36:47.400 Stormy Daniels to get her to not speak out about their alleged affair.

00:36:52.040 And it was marked down on the books as a legal expense.

00:36:55.000 Trump was, you know, or someone on his behalf paying this to a lawyer who represented Trump.

00:36:59.480 Now, one of the questions in the case is who actually authorized the payment and made the

00:37:06.740 payment and then who wrote down in the books that it was a legal expense?

00:37:10.960 Because the odds are it wasn't Donald Trump who wrote that down, you know, in the books.

00:37:16.220 Well, he made this comment after court yesterday that now has people saying, oh my God, it was

00:37:21.820 an admission.

00:37:23.020 He tried to fix it, but he admitted it.

00:37:25.240 Take a listen and saw it.

00:37:26.260 Three.

00:37:26.440 I was paying a lawyer and marked it down as a legal expense, some accountant, I didn't

00:37:33.820 know, marked it down as a legal expense.

00:37:36.900 That's exactly what it was.

00:37:39.060 And you've been indicted over that?

00:37:43.040 Okay.

00:37:43.860 So he started to say that he, I was paying a lawyer and we marked it down as a legal expense

00:37:50.840 and then he corrects himself.

00:37:52.500 An accountant did.

00:37:53.340 And now there's speculation that'll be played in court to prove to this jury, and they don't

00:37:58.320 have this proof otherwise, that Trump knew and authorized and maybe even participated

00:38:02.960 in how it would be recorded.

00:38:05.220 Any criminal defense attorney will tell you, just don't say anything, right?

00:38:08.920 Ever, ever, ever, ever, right?

00:38:11.260 But you're not going to be able to stop him.

00:38:13.100 Now, the question is, are they going to play?

00:38:14.520 They have to play the whole thing.

00:38:15.940 I would think, the whole thing.

00:38:17.280 So if the prosecution puts this in, are they also allowing him to testify without being

00:38:24.340 cross-examined?

00:38:25.480 It's a double-edged sword.

00:38:26.880 As much as they want to say, oh, here he is making an admission.

00:38:29.460 Well, he's also got the complete explanation, which means now he can give his side of what

00:38:35.760 happened here without getting on the witness stand and without being cross-examined.

00:38:40.560 So I would be a little less anxious as the prosecution to necessarily put that in.

00:38:48.100 I mean, I always say this, and the George Zimmerman case was the same thing, where the

00:38:52.660 prosecution in that case put in all of George Zimmerman's statements, and they were self-serving,

00:38:57.900 but they believed that, oh, the jury's not going to buy it.

00:39:00.480 But he never had to testify because his whole story, through the videos brought in by the

00:39:06.380 prosecution, told his story.

00:39:08.280 So as a prosecutor, I would not put that in.

00:39:13.120 But if they do, we'll see what happens.

00:39:15.760 Very good point.

00:39:16.520 And plus, when you speak colloquially, sometimes you say, I or we, and you don't necessarily

00:39:23.060 mean yourself.

00:39:23.920 It's like, I'll say, oh, I have this soundbite.

00:39:26.820 It's like, well, who gave me the soundbite?

00:39:27.880 My team.

00:39:28.400 I didn't cut the soundbite.

00:39:29.440 I don't mean that I personally cut the soundbite.

00:39:31.580 All right, standby.

00:39:32.200 We're going to take a quick break, and then we're going to come back, because there's other

00:39:34.420 big cases in the news, including this crazy alleged second-degree murder case that is

00:39:40.940 on camera, this case.

00:39:43.340 And it's fascinating.

00:39:44.480 The Karen Reed murder trial coming to us now out of Massachusetts.

00:39:48.840 Stand by.

00:39:49.380 Vinny and Jonna, stay with us.

00:39:50.300 All right, before we get to this murder case that I teased, let's talk about what happened

00:39:57.800 in Bakersfield, California, where this protester, this pro-justice in Palestine protester named

00:40:05.760 Ridi Patel showed up at a town meeting and decided to threaten the town council members

00:40:16.520 in explicit terms.

00:40:19.260 It was not ambiguous.

00:40:21.180 It's amazing to me, because listen to her voice.

00:40:23.360 It's very kind of high and squeaky and almost friendly sounding as she calls for them to 0.94

00:40:28.160 be murdered. 0.99

00:40:29.000 Take a listen. 1.00

00:40:29.900 I don't have faith that you'll do this. 1.00

00:40:31.620 You guys are all horrible human beings, and Jesus probably would have killed you himself. 1.00

00:40:35.680 And I hope one day somebody brings the guillotine and kills all of you motherfuckers, because 1.00

00:40:41.020 the only escalation in violence has been by you all. 1.00

00:40:44.260 And so there's no need to continue.

00:40:45.780 In the last five years I've attended city council meetings, there's never been

00:40:49.180 metal detectors, there's never been more cops.

00:40:52.660 The only reason you're doing it is because people actually don't care if you guys don't

00:40:58.580 like them.

00:40:59.080 And they're actually resisting, so you want to criminalize them.

00:41:02.900 You guys want to criminalize us with metal detectors?

00:41:05.320 We'll see you at your house. 1.00

00:41:06.780 We'll murder you. 1.00

00:41:07.660 Oh, just the casual murder threat, Jonna. 1.00

00:41:10.520 That like, bye, say bye bye.

00:41:12.780 So now she got charged.

00:41:14.780 She got charged with 18 felony counts, eight of threatening a public official, 10 of making

00:41:19.980 terrorist threats.

00:41:21.880 Initially, her bail was one million.

00:41:23.980 It's been reduced to 500,000.

00:41:26.180 And you tell me whether the prosecution has overcharged the case.

00:41:29.480 No way.

00:41:32.000 First Amendment doesn't protect that. 1.00

00:41:33.840 You can't threaten to kill somebody, regardless of the reason why you're upset.

00:41:40.760 This is not a First Amendment case.

00:41:42.420 Of course, she should have been charged.

00:41:43.900 This is the one time I agree.

00:41:45.300 She has not been overcharged.

00:41:47.680 You know, 18 counts.

00:41:48.860 I don't know exactly where they're getting that number from.

00:41:51.720 Maybe one for each utterance.

00:41:53.220 I'm not sure.

00:41:53.860 Yeah, but I think it's all the people who are up there, too.

00:41:56.180 Well, here's the other thing.

00:41:58.040 She got up there.

00:41:58.880 And, you know, Vinny, you've seen it a million times on Court TV and in your legal practice.

00:42:03.160 Now she's really sad.

00:42:04.860 Now she's very sad about what's happened to her.

00:42:08.660 Here she is in court.

00:42:10.920 Look at her.

00:42:11.560 She's for the listening audience.

00:42:12.640 She's there crying, crying, crying, wiping her eyes.

00:42:15.380 This is, I assume, when she got arraigned.

00:42:17.780 And she feels, I guess, bad about all the murder threats she casually dropped on the city

00:42:22.320 council members.

00:42:24.040 What do you think of this?

00:42:24.820 Well, it's a reality check.

00:42:27.020 It's a reality check.

00:42:28.300 Like, I think we're at a point now in society where people believe that there won't be any

00:42:35.340 sort of repercussions for their actions.

00:42:39.340 And while we spend a lot of time trying to limit what people can say on social media,

00:42:43.780 people who are passionate about whatever their issue is have gotten to such an extreme

00:42:49.440 level of being unhinged that they don't understand how an orderly society works.

00:42:57.600 And then when the cuffs go on and you're put in the jail, oh, wait a minute.

00:43:03.240 This is real life.

00:43:05.560 This is real life.

00:43:06.920 Oh, okay.

00:43:08.060 Now I get it.

00:43:09.220 Now I get it.

00:43:10.120 It reminds me of the story.

00:43:11.320 Remember during some of the protests when you had, I think it was a lawyer, may have been two lawyers,

00:43:15.840 that firebombed a police car?

00:43:18.520 Like, I don't get where all this is coming from.

00:43:21.960 And these are people who should be living very normal lives.

00:43:26.100 Yeah, you can be loud and passionate about your issue, whatever it is, and do whatever

00:43:30.800 you want, raise money, make speeches, vote in people that you believe in.

00:43:37.200 But there's a limit.

00:43:38.400 And I think some people have lost sight of where that is.

00:43:44.220 And you can't engage in unlawful activity to try to stop whatever you think you're going to stop.

00:43:51.280 And I think there's a mentality that we have to do whatever we can to stop this, because it doesn't matter.

00:43:59.140 We won't get in trouble anyway.

00:44:01.800 Uh, okay.

00:44:02.760 Another quick one I want to squeeze in before the break.

00:44:05.320 Did you guys see by chance what happened at Berkeley when that Students for Justice and

00:44:09.540 Palestine representative stood up and threatened, well, not threatened, but, and started speaking

00:44:13.940 in her microphone about Palestine at this private event the dean had invited her to.

00:44:18.740 There were 60 students.

00:44:20.040 She gets up, she gets a little microphone out, had a great, if you guys have missed this,

00:44:23.000 you got to go back and listen to my Friday show with Adam Carolla, because we spent a half

00:44:25.800 an hour on it.

00:44:26.400 It was like my favorite half hour of the week.

00:44:28.180 Anyway, now this woman is demanding that the dean and his wife be fired because of her 1.00

00:44:36.340 bad behavior and them kicking her out after it.

00:44:38.940 The dean of the, the dean's wife, who's also a law professor at Berkeley, grabbed her microphone 0.99

00:44:44.900 to try to escort her off of the property after telling her to leave many times and she wouldn't.

00:44:49.260 And now this woman, this protester is saying, I have been assaulted.

00:44:53.640 I've been battered, I've been battered, is demanding that both professors be fired, is saying that

00:45:00.000 she was nearly strangled, that she was put in a headlock.

00:45:04.980 Hopefully we'll drop in the video here of what actually happened.

00:45:07.320 Do we have it?

00:45:09.260 And that she was caused great pain by literally this woman just grabbed her microphone to get 0.99

00:45:16.380 her off the property.

00:45:17.280 Here it is.

00:45:17.760 Okay, she's protesting.

00:45:19.380 Well, she's lecturing, she's speaking in Arabic.

00:45:23.440 They hosted her for a nice dinner.

00:45:25.100 And now the, um, the, the wife of the dean, again, independent law press there, Catherine

00:45:31.340 Fisk is going to come over and you'll see her hand go on the microphone from over the

00:45:35.680 woman's shoulders. 0.99

00:45:36.860 10 people walked out with her.

00:45:38.120 As we watch it, Vinny, is there any, here's there, she's got the microphone.

00:45:42.580 She's got the other arm around the, on the shoulder.

00:45:46.320 That's all that happens.

00:45:48.060 There's no headlock.

00:45:49.460 That incident right there is being characterized by the woman in the hijab as she, as a headlock 0.97

00:45:59.660 that cut off her air supply. 0.96

00:46:01.360 She was almost strangled.

00:46:03.840 Yeah, not happening.

00:46:05.700 That's not what I saw.

00:46:07.040 That's not what I saw.

00:46:08.080 And the video is what the video is.

00:46:09.740 And I can't believe you bring a microphone and a speaker to a party.

00:46:15.620 It's not like the microphone was there, right?

00:46:16.840 She brought it herself.

00:46:18.160 No, she was the traveling microphone, Mr. Microphone.

00:46:23.060 No, I, I don't, I don't see an assault there.

00:46:25.500 What I see is someone refusing to leave, uh, uh, private property after being asked to leave.

00:46:31.620 That's, that's what I see.

00:46:32.760 And, and John, if I were this, this dean or his wife, I would sue them.

00:46:37.100 I would sue her for defamation.

00:46:38.300 They're being defamed by the day by this girl. 0.99

00:46:40.960 And I would also see about trespassing charges.

00:46:43.100 You tell me when you tell somebody 30 times to leave your property and they don't, can't

00:46:46.680 you go to the police and say, I want to file a trespass claim against them?

00:46:50.940 You would ordinarily think so.

00:46:52.780 Like this case reminded me of, do you remember the phrase from law school, officious intermeddler,

00:46:57.740 somebody who intentionally injects themselves into a situation.

00:47:00.600 This is like me going to the dentist for a filling and then suing the dentist because

00:47:04.380 he put a hole in my tooth.

00:47:06.740 The only thing that was confusing about this though, is apparently the school paid for

00:47:11.740 the dinner though.

00:47:12.520 It was clearly not on school property.

00:47:15.000 It was on private property and yes, they should counter sue.

00:47:18.100 This person went to this party for the purpose of disrupting it and now wants to sue for damages.

00:47:25.480 That's it.

00:47:25.840 That's a hard no from me and they should fight back.

00:47:29.340 Yeah.

00:47:29.560 And she's demanding that they be fired. 1.00

00:47:31.160 Although I will say right now, amazingly, even at UC Berkeley, they are holding the line.

00:47:37.420 The board, at least one of the board members came out and spoke saying she's the one who

00:47:42.060 crossed the line, not them.

00:47:43.480 She's the one who crossed the line by doing this on private property.

00:47:46.240 And meanwhile, of course, because this is, you know, modern day America, this young woman

00:47:51.320 continues to organize protests outside of their home claiming they assault and batter

00:47:57.880 pro-Palestinian students here.

00:48:00.060 I mean, this is ongoing defamation.

00:48:01.980 They should sue her.

00:48:03.340 They should do it quickly and they should make it hurt.

00:48:06.020 All right, Vinny and Jonna, legally, that means.

00:48:08.180 Stay with us because we're going to get to that big case next, which I think the audience

00:48:11.080 is going to find really interesting.

00:48:11.960 You guys don't go away.

00:48:13.360 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM.

00:48:17.480 It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and

00:48:22.200 important political, legal, and cultural figures today.

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00:49:16.140 Okay, so the case of Karen Reed, it's a murder trial in Massachusetts, and this one will be

00:49:22.340 before the cameras.

00:49:23.320 It's just getting underway.

00:49:24.840 Vinny, you guys, I'm sure, are going to be all over it at Court TV.

00:49:27.400 Outline what it's about for us.

00:49:29.040 Well, Karen Reed is dating a Boston police officer, Officer John O'Keefe.

00:49:35.540 They go out for a night of drinking in Boston, but it's a cold night, and there's a storm that's

00:49:40.980 coming.

00:49:41.800 So they meet a bunch of friends at the bars where they're kind of bar hopping around,

00:49:46.980 and there's an after party at one of the officers' homes.

00:49:49.920 So when they're done at the bar, Karen gets behind the wheel, John O'Keefe gets in the car,

00:49:55.620 and they drive to that friend's house.

00:49:58.080 And this is where the story, one of two things happens, depending upon whether you believe

00:50:03.020 the prosecution or defense.

00:50:05.180 According to the prosecution, John O'Keefe gets out of the car.

00:50:08.380 They're having some sort of an argument, and Karen Reed, while she's doing a K-turn to kind 0.65

00:50:15.760 of turn around and head back where she came from because she decided not to go to that party, 0.64

00:50:20.800 purposely runs over her boyfriend, John O'Keefe, and leaves him on the front lawn of that home 0.97

00:50:28.040 in the cold to die.

00:50:31.200 That's what the prosecution says.

00:50:33.140 What the defense says happened is that Karen Reed dropped him off.

00:50:36.540 He went inside the house.

00:50:38.820 Something happened in the house.

00:50:40.420 There was a confrontation.

00:50:41.460 There was a fight.

00:50:42.320 He was beaten up.

00:50:43.620 He was attacked by the dog, and they dragged his body out onto the front lawn, and they framed

00:50:51.340 Karen Reed for murder by taking pieces of her broken taillight and putting it on his body.

00:50:58.020 So those are the two versions of what happened.

00:51:00.520 So it's either murder, according to the prosecution, or she's being framed, and it's a

00:51:06.320 police conspiracy cover-up from the defense perspective.

00:51:10.940 And in the middle is she was drunk and accidentally hit him.

00:51:15.760 But she's not charged with that, and she's not admitting that, although that was the original

00:51:20.400 charge against her before they upped it to murder after they found some voicemail messages 0.98

00:51:26.700 that were left, and they tested her backup camera and found that it was working.

00:51:31.600 So based upon that, the prosecution believes it's murder.

00:51:35.020 But that's just half the story.

00:51:36.600 That's just half the story.

00:51:37.680 The other story is what's happening outside the courthouse, because this case was picked

00:51:41.780 up by a local—he's on YouTube.

00:51:44.620 He's a former teacher.

00:51:46.480 And he picked this up.

00:51:48.160 His name is Turtle Boy.

00:51:49.640 And he has all these followers who are called turtle riders, Megan.

00:51:54.620 Turtle riders.

00:51:55.500 And a couple hundred of them have been showing up at every hearing, protesting the charges

00:52:02.900 against Karen Reed, carrying free Karen Reed signs, and believing that there's a police 0.99

00:52:08.880 conspiracy here.

00:52:09.860 So this has completely divided the town, and right now we're in jury selection, and it's

00:52:15.000 not moving as quickly as the jury selection for the most famous man on the planet.

00:52:21.180 It's amazing, by the way, how fast the Trump trial is moving.

00:52:23.640 The judge says we're going to have a jury picked by Monday, and opening statements will be

00:52:28.320 on Monday, he expects, in the Trump trial.

00:52:30.880 You're right.

00:52:31.380 Karen Reed's going to take longer. 1.00

00:52:33.020 John, what's your initial impression of this case?

00:52:34.780 Because I went both ways.

00:52:36.780 I'm just getting up to speed on it.

00:52:38.060 But it says the medical examiner ruled the cause of death was blunt impact injuries to

00:52:43.220 the head and hypothermia, as though he'd been attacked and then left outside to freeze

00:52:48.560 to death. 0.75

00:52:49.080 That doesn't necessarily tell us who did it, right?

00:52:53.680 But then when you get to all the taillight DNA, they found the taillight.

00:52:57.840 Her DNA was his. 0.81

00:53:00.180 It was her taillight is basically what the prosecution says it can prove right by him.

00:53:05.700 I don't know.

00:53:06.180 Does that get us there?

00:53:06.880 What else is there?

00:53:07.500 Well, the case is bizarre, if you want to sum it up in a word.

00:53:12.200 And I don't know how much direct evidence the prosecution is going to have to show.

00:53:19.340 Like, if you think if the backup camera's working, you might see the actual crime in progress.

00:53:23.840 So she might, Karen Reed might have some there there.

00:53:27.000 I mean, her defense is really, I am too drunk to remember if I killed my boyfriend.

00:53:31.860 So I've got plausible deniability.

00:53:34.660 On the other hand, why?

00:53:37.500 If the police are framing her, not why would they frame her?

00:53:41.140 Why would they kill their friend?

00:53:43.280 Right?

00:53:43.480 Is this some member of that case that wasn't that long ago where the friends are watching

00:53:46.720 a football game and they all froze outside in the backyard?

00:53:49.560 Like, was it one of those weird situations?

00:53:52.440 That was drugs, I think.

00:53:54.400 Yeah, that could have been drugs.

00:53:55.880 And the police were like, I'm a police officer.

00:53:57.660 I don't want to get let's frame the girlfriend who was drunk, too drunk to know any better. 0.89

00:54:02.340 Was it that?

00:54:03.540 Or is she just in such complete denial that she doesn't remember running over her boyfriend

00:54:08.060 when she was blackout drunk and having some sort of drunken fight with him?

00:54:12.460 And the jury is going to want to know, like, if if they're framing her, how did he actually

00:54:17.760 die?

00:54:18.240 And I don't know that Vinny might know better than me at this point whether the prosecution

00:54:21.440 is going to have evidence in support of exactly how he died.

00:54:25.440 Well, the prosecution is, you know, the prosecution is saying he ran her over.

00:54:30.000 So they've got the taillight is broken.

00:54:32.360 Her her rear right taillight is broken.

00:54:35.660 Their medical examiner obviously will say what he's going to say.

00:54:38.500 But again, it's the taillight.

00:54:40.320 So he also had a cocktail glass in his hand.

00:54:43.880 John O'Keefe did that he brought from the bar.

00:54:45.840 And they say a piece of the cocktail glass was inside her rear bumper. 1.00

00:54:51.620 So you had the glass from his hand in her bumper and then the taillight from from the rear of

00:54:57.720 her car on John O'Keefe.

00:55:00.340 Now, what the defense is going to say is there's some peculiar things here.

00:55:03.920 Like why?

00:55:05.240 Because the snowstorm happens after Karen Reed leaves.

00:55:08.920 So she's there just after midnight.

00:55:12.260 The snow starts around two o'clock.

00:55:14.500 So by the morning, you've got snow on the ground.

00:55:16.540 They're going to say, why is the taillight and the blood on top of the snow?

00:55:20.980 Why isn't it on beneath the snow?

00:55:23.620 They're also going to point to a police chief, a local police chief who a week after this

00:55:29.060 said that he found another piece of the taillight on the front yard.

00:55:33.120 He happened to be driving by.

00:55:35.160 And there's there's there's alleged connections between the officers at the party and the officers

00:55:43.080 who were investigating the case.

00:55:45.000 So that's what they're going to allege.

00:55:47.440 I don't I don't know.

00:55:48.660 I think it's it's it's a tough sell, the whole conspiracy thing.

00:55:53.080 But I think it's also a tough sell to say that she murdered him.

00:55:56.840 I mean, in the middle is two people driving, drinking, one person getting out of the car,

00:56:02.220 the other person doing a K turn.

00:56:04.040 And maybe he got hit.

00:56:05.920 But the thing is, Vinny mentioned this, Jonna, they have angry voicemails from Karen Reed to

00:56:14.000 him, like on the night in question at one thirty a.m.

00:56:19.180 Saying like, you're an effort.

00:56:21.020 I can't. 1.00

00:56:21.600 I hate you. 0.58

00:56:22.120 I think was in there, but they were clearly having an argument that was very passionate 0.96

00:56:26.460 that would support, you know, the the argument that in the heat of an argument, she might

00:56:32.080 have done something very drunk that led to his death.

00:56:35.640 And they've charged second degree.

00:56:37.320 They're not charging first degree murder.

00:56:38.860 So if that's if that theory proves out she got angry, she was drunk and she intentionally

00:56:43.180 run him, ran him over.

00:56:44.480 That is second degree murder, is it not?

00:56:47.740 That would be unless those.

00:56:50.280 Is she leaving him angry voicemails after he's already, you know, in a snowbank and she

00:56:55.520 has no clue that he's in a snowbank?

00:56:57.640 That would almost help her.

00:56:59.460 She might, you know, she might be able to say, look, I got home.

00:57:01.480 I had no idea that he was.

00:57:02.880 I thought he was at the party.

00:57:04.400 That's why I'm calling and leaving him drunk messages and drunk texting him.

00:57:07.980 That could be one way that the defense wants to go with this.

00:57:11.740 And the other thing is, and it might not be part of the defense.

00:57:14.880 Did he freeze to death or did he die from the blunt force trauma?

00:57:19.460 And if you're freezing to death at your friend's party in a snowbank, how does nobody know that

00:57:24.720 you're out in the yard again, freezing to death?

00:57:26.780 Like there are some very bizarre circumstances surrounding this case.

00:57:31.020 What about the injuries that were shown in his body?

00:57:33.560 Because there's, we have a picture of some of the injuries and I understand the defense

00:57:39.100 is saying this was from the alleged dog attack.

00:57:42.720 This is where she starts to lose me. 1.00

00:57:44.580 Like bullshit. 1.00

00:57:45.580 I don't, it's all these. 1.00

00:57:47.260 You're not buying that's a dog attack.

00:57:48.860 Well, here's what they're saying.

00:57:50.660 No.

00:57:51.020 Well, here's what they're saying.

00:57:51.880 Those are consistent with dog scratches and they got rid of the dog afterwards.

00:57:57.300 Like the dog is nowhere to be found.

00:57:59.060 So they can't test any doggy DNA.

00:58:01.500 That was part of what they were alleging and all of this.

00:58:04.480 And, and his attorney, he has two attorneys.

00:58:07.320 He's got a local attorney and then Alan Jackson, who you may or may not remember, uh, is coming

00:58:13.040 in from LA to do this.

00:58:14.920 Um, he is a big time attorney, ran for DA in LA lost, but, um, he was, he's the man who

00:58:20.840 prosecuted, uh, Phil Spector successfully when he was on the other side.

00:58:24.920 And now he, he represents, uh, you know, big time cases.

00:58:29.740 And this is one that he has, uh, latched onto and has been very, I mean, literally on the

00:58:35.060 courthouse steps, they are pointing the finger at specific people in the house, but a big

00:58:40.100 ruling by the judge, uh, yesterday that the defense will not be able to mention any of

00:58:47.340 their allegations in their opening statement.

00:58:50.480 The third party culpability judge, not allowing any mention of it in their opening statements.

00:58:56.800 The judge says she's going to need this is, this is like, you guys of course, watch, um,

00:59:02.600 the practice, right?

00:59:03.960 The practice date, David E. Kelly's the practice, by the way, that's such a fun one to go back

00:59:07.760 and just put on your TV.

00:59:08.720 If you want to get old episodes of it, uh, I've done it, but they, they called it plan

00:59:12.820 being somebody, you're not allowed to raise it in your opening statement that you're going

00:59:15.920 to say somebody else did it, but there are several witnesses who are going to take the

00:59:18.940 stand and you're going to plan B them where little do they know, or maybe they will know

00:59:22.800 in this case, you're walking them right into a trap to try to blame the entire murder on

00:59:26.420 them.

00:59:27.160 You don't have enough to say it in your opening, but by the time you get to closing, you'll

00:59:30.380 have done enough to be able to argue it to the jury.

00:59:32.220 That's the judge is going to allow that Vinny, right?

00:59:34.140 You can't say in the opening, but you can, you can test it on cross.

00:59:37.720 Well, yeah, they have to develop enough evidence and the judge, I'll tell you what, the judge

00:59:41.840 is leaning towards not allowing any of this.

00:59:43.940 We'll see how it plays because all the buildup, every pre-trial motion has been about this

00:59:49.980 and the protests outside have been about this.

00:59:53.420 There's one other really big, important piece of evidence, which was a Google search on how

00:59:58.440 long to die in the snow.

01:00:00.620 It's a Google search on one of the, um, phones of one of the women who was at the party.

01:00:05.800 And initially when this information was taken from the phone, it appeared that the search

01:00:12.180 had been done at two 30 in the morning.

01:00:14.820 So if it's done at two 30 in the morning, it has nothing to do with Karen Reed.

01:00:19.020 Why would she, why would this woman inside the house be Googling how long to die in the snow? 1.00

01:00:24.680 Unless the people in the house were putting someone outside to die in the snow.

01:00:29.800 Now the prosecution is going to say, no, your experts wrong.

01:00:33.020 It was really, um, searched at six 30 in the morning.

01:00:36.160 So this is a huge piece of evidence and that, that, that Google search was really what triggered

01:00:42.780 all the, all the, um, support for Karen Reed and has been one of the big things that started

01:00:48.880 the free Karen Reed movement up there in Norfolk County, Massachusetts, where it's no longer

01:00:56.100 wicked cold.

01:00:58.000 Here's, here's Karen Reed in May of 2023, speaking about a little, uh, her defense.

01:01:05.020 We know who did it, Steve, we know, and we know who spearheaded this coverup.

01:01:10.980 You all know.

01:01:11.940 Yes, we do.

01:01:12.660 And no, she didn't do it.

01:01:14.280 No, she didn't do it.

01:01:15.600 This is an innocent woman.

01:01:16.960 She didn't do it.

01:01:18.360 I tried to save his life.

01:01:19.680 I tried to save his life at six in the morning.

01:01:22.120 I was covered in his blood.

01:01:23.140 I was the only one trying to save his life.

01:01:25.180 Why'd you admit to it?

01:01:26.760 He didn't, she didn't admit to it.

01:01:28.580 She didn't admit to anything close to that.

01:01:31.060 Nothing close to that.

01:01:32.900 And you should know that.

01:01:33.920 It was like three or four times.

01:01:35.780 No, she didn't.

01:01:36.680 That's not true.

01:01:37.340 She asked a question.

01:01:38.580 She asked a question, which is very different.

01:01:40.860 She didn't admit to anything.

01:01:43.020 What did she, what do they mean?

01:01:45.020 Why'd she admit to it?

01:01:45.880 Vinny's all smiles.

01:01:47.060 I've got it.

01:01:48.040 Do you remember my cousin Vinny?

01:01:50.240 When Ralph, Ralph Macchio, right.

01:01:52.240 And, and, and, and, and what did he say?

01:01:55.620 He said, I shot the clerk.

01:01:58.600 Yeah. 0.66

01:01:59.040 I shot the clerk.

01:02:00.180 That was the confession.

01:02:01.420 What Ralph Macchio actually said was, I shot the clerk.

01:02:05.680 I shot the clerk.

01:02:07.000 So that's what they're saying here is that Karen Reed is saying, I hit him. 0.97

01:02:12.100 I hit him.

01:02:13.300 Versus I hit him. 0.91

01:02:14.680 I hit him.

01:02:15.900 So thank you.

01:02:17.320 It's unbelievable.

01:02:18.240 Any reference.

01:02:18.720 Always welcome on this show.

01:02:20.080 In any context.

01:02:22.420 Identical.

01:02:23.360 Vinny so far.

01:02:24.080 What, from what I've seen, I think she did it.

01:02:26.340 And I think she's going to get away with it.

01:02:28.140 That's my, that's my initial take.

01:02:29.760 It's a tough case for prosecutors because the other thing that's been taking place during all this, there's an investigation by the Department of Justice of the investigators in this case.

01:02:41.300 So there's a federal investigation of the local investigators who ended up bringing, getting the evidence to charge Karen Reed.

01:02:49.020 So I look at all of that and I say, I can see where a jury could find reasonable doubt.

01:02:55.320 Does that mean that there was a police coverup?

01:02:58.160 Does that mean that she was framed?

01:03:00.840 Not necessarily, but there's, there's, there's a lot of issues that could absolutely bubble up during the course of this trial in front of this jury.

01:03:11.200 But again, and I'm wondering if at the end of the case, the jury will have a choice of something in the middle, which is she accidentally struck him because she had been drinking too much.

01:03:24.520 I don't know, John.

01:03:25.380 That's my initial take anyway.

01:03:26.580 What do you think that she, to me, like, and I stay open-minded because I say, frankly, I haven't taken too close to look at her case, but to me, it seems it's a big stretch to think these cops inside just decided to kill their buddy for no reason.

01:03:39.360 On the same night, he had this explosive fight with her in which she was yelling all the profane, hateful things at him.

01:03:44.820 Her, she was drunk. 0.71

01:03:46.140 Her tail light was broken.

01:03:47.280 And it just seems like a stretch, but that there's believing something and then there's proving it beyond a reasonable doubt.

01:03:53.760 So far, I think they're going to have trouble.

01:03:55.860 I think they're going to have trouble with murder.

01:03:58.200 But Vinny just said something very interesting.

01:04:00.740 And that is, why can't it be something in the middle?

01:04:04.820 What if she didn't kill him?

01:04:06.700 But what if they're not framing her?

01:04:09.140 What if this guy, I don't know, he went to this party, he had a few drinks, he went outside, he met some mistress, fell down, broke his glass, died, and nobody knows.

01:04:21.320 But like, what if that's what actually happened?

01:04:24.020 And it's neither of the two theories.

01:04:26.340 But I don't think that the problem is the defense is going to hang their hat on a third party culpability, even though they're not allowed.

01:04:32.860 I didn't know they weren't allowed to say an opening statement.

01:04:35.100 Maybe for that reason, they'll waive their opening statement.

01:04:37.380 We'll see.

01:04:38.660 But maybe it's somewhere in the middle or the jury will be confused enough that they won't be able to find guilt of anything, whether the lesser included manslaughter or the murder charge.

01:04:49.020 All right, well, we'll continue to follow it because that one's going to be on cam.

01:04:53.380 Here's the other thing.

01:04:54.500 We talked about Ruby Frankie on this show not long ago, who is this mother who abused her kids, along with her friend, who was like her therapist.

01:05:03.580 And the therapist agreed, somehow convinced the dad, Kevin, to leave his children to move out of the home.

01:05:10.500 And the therapist and Ruby, the therapist's name is Jodi Hildebrandt, were raising these two young children.

01:05:17.000 And they were both severely abused and both women received prison sentences.

01:05:21.300 This woman, Ruby Frankie, was very popular on YouTube, had over two million subscribers, made some headlines for her, quote, very strict parenting of her many children, and actually was reported for alleged abuse repeatedly. 1.00

01:05:35.320 Then pulled the YouTube channel, then went down some rabbit hole where things got very, very bad.

01:05:40.880 Now, the husband, who has not been charged, he's now ex-husband of Ruby, Kevin, has filed a lawsuit against Jodi Hildebrandt, seeking a judgment and special damages, alleging intentional infliction of emotional distress, negligent infliction of it,

01:05:55.100 and negligence as a claim for all of the harm that she did to his children, Jonna, to me, this seems like a no-brainer.

01:06:03.960 I mean, clearly, this woman was a nightmare. 1.00

01:06:05.860 She's serving a criminal sentence for it. 1.00

01:06:08.200 But can he recover?

01:06:10.260 It's not on his children's behalf.

01:06:12.260 It's in the first person for his emotional distress.

01:06:16.640 I look at it, I'm like, where were you?

01:06:19.020 Where were you?

01:06:19.760 Oh, I know.

01:06:22.120 It was so sick, what happened to these children.

01:06:25.180 And, you know, I don't blame him for filing a lawsuit.

01:06:27.540 The thing is, and his children can file their own lawsuit.

01:06:31.080 The statute of limitations will be told until they become adults.

01:06:34.800 But what are they going to get?

01:06:36.960 You know, now you've got a woman who's in prison. 1.00

01:06:38.920 Any assets she may have had are probably protected, or, you know, she's going to be making license plates, so earning whatever, 30 cents an hour. 1.00

01:06:45.420 What is he going to get?

01:06:46.900 It's going to be a very Pyrrhic victory.

01:06:49.140 You know, do you just move on?

01:06:50.480 But I don't blame him for wanting to go here so that she can't get out one day and write a book and make some money and not pay him and eventually his children. 0.51

01:07:00.040 So, but it's just, I don't think he's going to actually get, see a check.

01:07:04.640 I don't know if this is for our benefit, Vinny, to try to make himself look like he's really distraught.

01:07:09.340 You know, he's very, very upset that his children were being serially abused and he allegedly didn't know anything about it.

01:07:14.120 And he's just going to prove it by filing this lawsuit.

01:07:16.680 He did, when he was being interrogated by the cops, say he hadn't seen them in over a year.

01:07:23.700 Many people doubted that and said, OK, we don't believe it.

01:07:26.920 And if if we do believe it, the question is my question.

01:07:29.880 Why not?

01:07:30.960 What kind of a responsible parent just says, oh, gee, this therapist, Jody, told me to leave the marital home and not to come back.

01:07:36.780 And I did it without a court order, without anything, just ceded their upbringing to some stranger and my estranged wife.

01:07:44.700 Here he was when they confronted him making that claim.

01:07:47.700 So at 17.

01:07:48.260 So are they all living with you or?

01:07:51.960 No, I haven't seen them for over a year.

01:07:54.820 Any of them?

01:07:56.500 No, none of them.

01:07:58.680 For a year?

01:07:59.840 Over a year.

01:08:00.860 I've been in a separation.

01:08:04.080 From who?

01:08:05.640 From my wife and family.

01:08:07.520 Who lives in that home with your children? 1.00

01:08:09.240 To be honest, I don't know.

01:08:13.320 I know that she's there with four of the children, our two older children, that have moved out.

01:08:24.920 Have you communicated with your wife regarding, like, discipline with your kids or their care or their physical well-being?

01:08:32.780 No.

01:08:33.760 So is she doing this on her own and just telling you how your kids are?

01:08:37.800 Or she's not telling me anything about the kids.

01:08:41.720 I mean, it's at least contributory negligence.

01:08:45.660 Like, you ceded all parenting to a stranger.

01:08:48.760 This is why the rest of us don't do that kind of thing, Vinny.

01:08:53.300 Yes, but I will say this, because I've spoken and interviewed other victims of Jodi Hildebrandt.

01:08:59.560 And it's a complicated scenario, because she was intertwined with the local family courts and with the church, okay?

01:09:12.100 And they're all Mormons, okay? 0.76

01:09:14.700 So the way she acted with this family, she had a very similar M.O. with other families and other men who are taken out of the lives of their family.

01:09:31.620 And families are imploded.

01:09:32.900 And I need to learn a little bit more about that.

01:09:38.760 But what was described to me by another victim was she goes in, the first thing she does, and this is with the blessings of the church,

01:09:46.100 is separate the man and take him away from his family and convince everyone that he has some level of usually a porn addiction.

01:10:00.480 And it's really a lot deeper than even I've been able to get into on my show, where I've done hours on this.

01:10:12.780 And I don't know Kevin Franke that well, but as we watched him speak with one of Jodi Hildebrandt's other victims,

01:10:23.520 he was trying to explain to me that he had gone through this similar thing.

01:10:28.620 And it had really, you know, distorted his life.

01:10:33.340 So I think once we learn more about Jodi Hildebrandt and what connection and power she wielded in conjunction with the church,

01:10:44.920 and I think that's what makes it a little different than just anyone going to a local therapist.

01:10:51.220 She wielded a little more influence and power. 1.00

01:10:55.280 Would I, as a father, allow that to happen?

01:10:59.860 No.

01:11:00.980 And I don't know Kevin Franke.

01:11:02.920 I don't, like, I understand that that is an interesting story and explains somewhat his decision making,

01:11:08.740 but it doesn't excuse you from your parental responsibilities toward your child, Jonna.

01:11:13.620 I mean, he, they were being abused day in, day out, and his lawsuit spells some of it out,

01:11:19.040 that his 11-year-old son was getting hogtied by sets of ropes around his ankles and his wrists and then tied together,

01:11:25.020 that he was made repeatedly to jump into a cactus,

01:11:29.260 that he was made to spend long, like, scorching summer days outside with no sun protection and looking,

01:11:37.720 made to look into the sun, like, all these very strange, not to mention the open wounds that were all over his body.

01:11:42.860 He was emaciated.

01:11:43.620 He was clearly starving when he escaped out of the house and ran to a neighbor and said,

01:11:47.540 please help me, and his little sister in the same condition.

01:11:50.140 I don't, like, I gotta be honest, I have almost no sympathy for the father.

01:11:53.940 Almost no sympathy.

01:11:54.900 Like, where were you?

01:11:56.600 I don't care.

01:11:57.460 My church told me I needed to leave my house because some, a porn addiction, or let's say, like, an alcoholic.

01:12:03.320 I'd say no, no.

01:12:05.280 That's not what God wants from me.

01:12:07.140 I'm still a sane person.

01:12:08.680 Is he saying he was, like, a cult member, that he lost all independent ability to think?

01:12:13.640 I mean, this woman's being held to account by the criminal justice system, 1.00

01:12:16.300 but I just don't get that he's like, for me, I had intentional infliction, emotional distress against me.

01:12:23.280 Yeah, maybe he should add the church as a defendant in his lawsuit, though.

01:12:26.680 Maybe, is the church responsible if all this is happening with their blessing,

01:12:33.260 and somehow the family courts are, like, okay with it, which, that boggles my mind.

01:12:39.680 You know, I have seen circumstances where parents are sort of banished, for lack of a better word,

01:12:45.460 from rearing their children for whatever reason, and they have to go and get therapy and get counseling

01:12:50.660 and do all this, jump through all these hoops before they can get back into their children's lives.

01:12:54.440 I don't know if that happened here.

01:12:56.620 But the fact that these kids, I mean, they were horribly abused, and for him to be clueless is terrible.

01:13:03.240 But I guess the real question is, and, you know, what Vinny alluded to is, well, why?

01:13:08.340 What was really holding him back?

01:13:10.240 Was it something other than him just being a clueless parent?

01:13:13.080 Or was there more to it?

01:13:14.680 I don't care.

01:13:15.180 Well, the way they sell it, the way she sells it, is you need to fix yourself before you can come to the family,

01:13:23.060 because you are the problem.

01:13:24.960 This guy is an educated guy, right, Vinny?

01:13:28.940 He's like an engineer.

01:13:30.300 So was my guest. 0.99

01:13:31.920 It's amazing how this woman sucked these people in with her absolute nonsense, 1.00

01:13:35.860 and they ceded their child rearing to her. 1.00

01:13:39.220 Yeah.

01:13:39.580 Have you seen the house that she was living in, by the way?

01:13:42.400 She was making a lot of money doing this as well. 0.96

01:13:43.920 It was nice.

01:13:44.780 Yeah, it was nice.

01:13:45.260 It was beautiful.

01:13:47.060 I mean, beautiful, sprawling, brand new home.

01:13:51.000 And it was a prison and torture chamber.

01:13:53.680 It was a torture chamber.

01:13:55.040 You know, pro tip, don't just give your children over to a stranger,

01:13:59.100 whether your spouse or a strange spouse is involved or not.

01:14:04.240 Just don't do it.

01:14:05.080 You have independent legal responsibilities to them, and you better hold them up,

01:14:09.420 no matter what your church or some quack therapist tells you.

01:14:14.020 You guys are great.

01:14:15.000 Vinny, Jonna, thank you so much.

01:14:16.680 What a ride we've taken from the Trump horn through the juror's election.

01:14:21.680 And now, all of this.

01:14:23.260 Really appreciate your insights.

01:14:25.640 Thank you.

01:14:26.760 Thank you.

01:14:27.460 See you soon.

01:14:32.260 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.94

01:14:34.200 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - April 17, 2024

Get To Know Trump Trial Jurors, and Absurd Media Coverage of Case, with Vinnie Politan and Jonna Spilbor ｜ Ep. 768

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