The Megyn Kelly Show - Glenn Greenwald on Trump and the media, MSNBC, and Edward Snowden ｜ Ep. 1

00:00:00.000 Your business doesn't move in a straight line.

00:00:02.840 Make sure your team is taken care of through every twist and turn

00:00:05.980 with Canada Life Savings, Retirement and Benefits Plans.

00:00:09.660 Whether you want to grow your team, support your employees at every stage

00:00:13.120 or build a workplace people want to be a part of,

00:00:16.200 Canada Life has flexible plans for companies of all sizes

00:00:19.400 so it's easy to find a solution that works for you.

00:00:22.840 Visit canadalife.com slash employee benefits to learn more.

00:00:26.560 Canada Life Insurance, Investments, Advice.

00:00:31.220 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.060 Hey everybody, I'm Megyn Kelly and welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:46.180 So glad you're here with me, so glad you're listening.

00:00:48.580 We're doing audio for now, we may add some video at some point.

00:00:52.460 You know, the audio is kind of more intimate just to start with.

00:00:56.560 And I thought I'd just start by telling you why I'm here, right?

00:00:59.260 Like, what am I doing here?

00:01:01.320 And the reason really is I am deeply concerned.

00:01:05.400 I'm concerned about what's happening to our country, to our media and to us.

00:01:11.800 You know, the press of which I've been a part for many years now

00:01:15.500 is unlike anything I've ever seen before.

00:01:18.600 I feel like it has abandoned any semblance of objectivity.

00:01:22.980 And just having the luxury of being just a consumer for the past couple of years,

00:01:27.620 it's as plain as the nose on your face.

00:01:29.600 And it's really frustrating.

00:01:31.820 You know, I feel like the COVID pandemic really brought it home.

00:01:36.460 Because like you, I was sitting at my house thinking,

00:01:39.020 oh wow, you know, like, I really need to have honest information about this.

00:01:42.460 And oh wait, I trust no one.

00:01:44.760 You know, the truth is, I didn't trust Trump to give it to me straight.

00:01:48.000 And I didn't trust the media to give it to me straight either.

00:01:51.480 And I actually sent out a tweet saying something like that.

00:01:54.080 And some of the sort of mainstream elite journalists who I know DMed me saying,

00:01:59.160 what are you saying?

00:02:00.000 How could you possibly say that?

00:02:01.160 Why would you not trust the media?

00:02:03.480 You know, which I just laughed at.

00:02:05.240 You know, what do you mean?

00:02:06.760 How can I not trust the media?

00:02:08.840 Well, I don't.

00:02:09.500 Because most of the media today expresses fealty to one side or the other,

00:02:15.860 to Trump or to destroying Trump, right?

00:02:19.620 And now it's fealty to the toxic religion of wokeness, 0.99

00:02:23.980 you know, policing people's words and their thoughts.

00:02:27.520 And I just thought, you know what?

00:02:29.540 I need to get back out there.

00:02:30.860 I need to create a show that I control,

00:02:33.940 in which my only fealty will be to the audience and to the truth.

00:02:40.200 So that's why I'm here.

00:02:42.860 You know, I'm sick and tired of the news today.

00:02:45.580 And I hope to be a place that you can come for information that you trust, right?

00:02:50.340 That you know I'm not in the bag for either side or for anybody.

00:02:54.420 And a place in which opinions, even heterodox opinions,

00:02:58.840 can be expressed freely.

00:03:02.660 And we can debate ideas, any ideas, right?

00:03:05.320 And that you guys are sophisticated enough and smart enough

00:03:08.420 to handle it.

00:03:10.560 So we are not about the silencing of viewpoints here at this show.

00:03:15.740 And we hope you'll stay along with us for the ride.

00:03:18.760 This is the part of the show where I have to read an ad or two.

00:03:23.340 And it's the reason you get to get the show for free.

00:03:25.200 So you have to stick with me through this.

00:03:26.500 And it's the very first time I've ever done it.

00:03:28.680 So you should really stay tuned.

00:03:31.240 My executive producer, Steve Krakauer, is with me.

00:03:33.560 And so, you know, we'll see how it goes, Steve.

00:03:36.140 I could completely screw it up.

00:03:37.380 No, this is exciting.

00:03:38.260 Let's pay the bills.

00:03:39.740 Right?

00:03:40.040 Okay.

00:03:40.280 And, you know, we only selected ad companies that we actually believed in.

00:03:44.520 And we rejected a bunch we didn't.

00:03:46.180 So you know that, you know, it's legit.

00:03:48.340 And the very first smart advertiser who we decided to partner with is,

00:03:53.320 listen to this, Pure Talk.

00:03:56.600 Have you heard of them?

00:03:57.740 So here's the question.

00:03:58.820 Who is your wireless provider?

00:04:00.840 Do you even know?

00:04:01.900 AT&T?

00:04:02.440 Is it Verizon?

00:04:03.080 Is it T-Mobile?

00:04:03.660 So what if I told you that you could be saving over $400 a year without having to sacrifice

00:04:09.460 your service, your coverage, or anything?

00:04:13.140 You got to sign up with Pure Talk.

00:04:15.040 It's on the exact same network as one of the big carriers.

00:04:18.340 It gives you the same bars and same service, but it is half the price.

00:04:22.620 Now, I got to be honest, Steve Krakauer, I had not heard of Pure Talk before this.

00:04:26.940 No, it's awesome.

00:04:27.660 They share, I think, our vision of no corporate BS, which is cool.

00:04:32.380 Well, exactly.

00:04:32.880 Because when I was looking into them, it says that they don't play the same games as

00:04:35.700 like all the big carriers who have to sell you all the, quote, unlimited data, as though

00:04:39.860 this is going to be the greatest thing you've ever seen when you don't really need that

00:04:42.640 much, right?

00:04:43.320 Like you want to be in charge of how much you get.

00:04:44.980 So these guys, Pure Talk, they give you unlimited talk, unlimited text, two gigs of

00:04:49.640 data for 20 bucks a month.

00:04:52.200 No, it's not bad.

00:04:53.020 It's a great deal.

00:04:53.980 That's no fluff.

00:04:55.140 That's actually good.

00:04:56.300 Also, their customer service is right here in the United States.

00:04:59.000 Now, we all love that, right?

00:05:00.700 You're going to be able to get through.

00:05:01.720 You're going to be able to have a good conversation.

00:05:04.160 And it is second to none.

00:05:05.400 You look at Consumer Affairs, Pure Talk, number one, number one rated wireless company.

00:05:11.880 And the best part of all, their CEO is a vet, a US veteran who gets what it means to serve

00:05:17.740 his country.

00:05:18.380 So check them out.

00:05:19.140 I love it.

00:05:19.780 It'll be the easiest and best decision you make all day.

00:05:22.400 Get unlimited talk, text, plus two gigs of data, all for 20 bucks a month.

00:05:26.420 From your cell phone, dial pound 250 and say Megyn Kelly, and you will save an additional

00:05:32.320 50% off on your first month.

00:05:34.580 That's pound 250, say Megyn Kelly, Pure Talk, simply, smarter, wireless.

00:05:41.980 Boom.

00:05:43.100 How'd I do, Steve?

00:05:44.160 That was perfect.

00:05:45.380 That was it.

00:05:45.740 Pure Talk will be very happy, I think.

00:05:47.340 Awesome.

00:05:47.680 I'll find out.

00:05:48.500 Good.

00:05:48.800 I'm happy with them.

00:05:49.600 I'd love to support a veteran and save money at the same time.

00:05:52.140 It's a great deal.

00:05:52.740 And now, without further ado, our very first guest here on The Megyn Kelly Show, Glenn

00:05:57.780 Greenwald.

00:05:59.040 You may or may not know him, but he is a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and a really interesting

00:06:05.220 guy.

00:06:05.780 He came from the left, right?

00:06:07.780 Like he was more aligned, I would say, with progressives.

00:06:11.540 And then through a series of life events, started to realize maybe he wasn't where he

00:06:17.320 thought he was.

00:06:17.960 He's been fearless in his reporting, and he will take on anybody on any charge.

00:06:24.440 And I think you're going to find him and his discussion about the media in 2020 really

00:06:29.240 interesting.

00:06:31.740 Glenn Greenwald, thank you so much for being here.

00:06:34.360 Hey, it's great to be with you, Megan.

00:06:35.520 You first splashed onto the scene in my world when you broke one of the biggest stories of

00:06:41.780 the past decade.

00:06:42.760 You were working for The Guardian, and you broke the story of the NSA spying scandal,

00:06:49.280 the whole Edward Snowden, and are they listening to us?

00:06:52.900 And it turned into, well, we're only collecting the metadata of people's phone calls.

00:06:57.080 We're not actually listening to the phone calls.

00:06:58.900 And so people, you know, maybe don't remember the whole thing.

00:07:02.240 But you were the guy who broke that story for which Edward Snowden is basically still on

00:07:07.780 the run.

00:07:08.780 He fled to Russia.

00:07:10.880 And I just want to go back, because I wonder, when you get a scoop as big as that, and he's

00:07:16.080 coming to you and sort of saying, this is what I'd like you to do, was it exciting?

00:07:20.840 Were you scared?

00:07:22.480 What do you remember feeling?

00:07:24.400 Yeah, it was all of those things.

00:07:25.980 I mean, I had, prior to his coming to me, you know, he anonymously emailed me at the end

00:07:30.340 of 2012, I had spent two or three years, or even a little longer, maybe, working as a

00:07:37.140 journalist, columnist, blogger, concerned about the NSA, writing a lot about the NSA,

00:07:42.620 when not a lot of people were.

00:07:44.100 And it was very difficult work, because it was so opaque.

00:07:46.640 There was very little we knew about what was happening within this agency.

00:07:50.480 And the little tidbits we were getting were making me very concerned as somebody very

00:07:54.100 devoted to privacy rights and limited government, that probably the invasiveness was much greater

00:08:03.080 than we knew.

00:08:04.160 But it was impossible to demonstrate that.

00:08:05.980 So when he came to me as somebody who said, not only do I have the only top secret documents

00:08:12.140 ever to leak from this agency, I have an enormous number of them, you know, hundreds of thousands,

00:08:18.040 if not more.

00:08:18.760 However, I knew on the one hand, it was going to be this unique journalistic opportunity,

00:08:23.920 kind of like the story of a generation, be able to shine light on the most secretive

00:08:28.320 agency within the world's most powerful government.

00:08:31.200 But I also knew that precisely for that reason, that there had never been a leak like this.

00:08:36.480 Probably going back to the Pentagon papers, but because it was from the NSA, this was even

00:08:40.680 more sensitive.

00:08:42.500 And because of my position in the media ecosystem, right, I was with The Guardian, but I was kind

00:08:47.080 of like a calmness of The Guardian only for about eight months.

00:08:49.560 I wasn't at The New York Times or The Post.

00:08:51.820 It was a riskier position to be in, to do a story this sensitive and this threatening

00:08:56.920 to the U.S. government.

00:08:58.600 And then Snowden, you know, the first thing he wanted before he was really willing to do

00:09:02.040 anything was for me to fly halfway across the world to Hong Kong, where he had gone in

00:09:06.500 order to safely work with journalists, which had a lot of intrigue to it, had a lot of tension

00:09:12.240 involved.

00:09:13.140 We didn't know what the U.S. government knew.

00:09:14.900 We didn't know what the Chinese government or the local Hong Kong authorities knew about

00:09:18.400 what he was doing or why he was there.

00:09:21.480 So everything was under cloak and dagger.

00:09:23.360 And obviously, when you're getting hundreds of thousands of proxy documents from a military

00:09:27.660 agency within the U.S.

00:09:29.460 government, it's a very risky thing to do.

00:09:31.720 So sure, I was definitely tense and anxious.

00:09:33.980 But also, you know, that's why I went into journalism in the first place is to do those

00:09:37.940 kind of stories.

00:09:38.880 He's with Putin now in Russia, but I'm sure would like to come back and is pushing for a

00:09:43.760 pardon, would like a pardon.

00:09:45.040 And Trump actually just said he'll consider it.

00:09:49.240 You know, what happened this month was the Ninth Circuit ruled that program to be illegal.

00:09:54.360 I mean, Snowden was effectively justified or vindicated in some sense because the program

00:09:59.820 was ruled illegal and his conduct was discussed favorably by the court.

00:10:05.820 But, you know, I don't know if they're just all neocons or what, but the people who really are

00:10:10.880 still upset with him, like my old pal Mark Thiessen of the Washington Post and AEI would

00:10:17.000 say, you know, he endangered, he endangered people.

00:10:20.380 He's not a whistleblower because he should have taken it to lawmakers.

00:10:23.000 You know, he he hurt people who are helping the United States, our allies.

00:10:26.300 And this all boiled down to us after 9-11 needing to see where the terrorists and who the

00:10:30.960 terrorists were calling.

00:10:31.820 And, you know, they looked at the metadata only.

00:10:34.840 They didn't look at your private phone calls, which doesn't hurt anybody if they just see

00:10:38.300 what numbers are out there.

00:10:40.020 Right.

00:10:40.140 I mean, first of all, I think there's this very interesting split on the right that just

00:10:43.400 reveals of people who kind of started off as 9-11 war on terror warriors and remained

00:10:50.540 that.

00:10:51.820 But there's a big part of the Republican Party, obviously led by Trump, right?

00:10:55.520 When he ran in 2016, he ran in opposition to the war in Iraq and to like general notions

00:11:00.940 of imperialism.

00:11:02.520 Snowden's biggest advocates right now aren't just the ACLU, but Senator Rand Paul and Congressman

00:11:07.420 Matt Gaetz.

00:11:08.800 People, Thomas Massey, who are saying that he deserves a pardon, that he's a hero.

00:11:13.680 So I think there's this split on the right that recognizes that we allow the government

00:11:17.280 to get too big.

00:11:18.120 I mean, one of the philosophies of right wing politics in the United States has always

00:11:21.780 been we need to protect individual liberty from incursions by a powerful central government

00:11:26.460 that can invade our lives in too extreme of a way.

00:11:30.000 And having them even, let's set aside the debate about whether they're really listening

00:11:33.580 to our calls, because there's a lot of evidence that they are.

00:11:35.200 But even if they're only listening to, quote, just our metadata, think how much that reveals

00:11:39.820 about you if people know who you call, right?

00:11:42.840 Like you're a woman and you're considering an abortion, you call an abortion clinic.

00:11:46.700 You don't really need to know what you say on that call.

00:11:49.860 You just need to know that you called that abortion clinic or you call a drug counseling

00:11:53.760 hotline or a suicide hotline or an HIV specialist, or you're talking to someone who's not your

00:11:58.900 spouse late at night.

00:12:00.440 Metadata is incredibly revealing to create a picture about who you are.

00:12:04.160 Why should the government know that about us?

00:12:06.400 Unless we're doing something that a court says justifies them being suspicious about us.

00:12:11.580 That was never supposed to be the role of the government.

00:12:13.880 That's why the Fourth Amendment exists, right?

00:12:15.780 So it's one of those kind of controversies, Megan, where it's very unique in that a lot of the

00:12:22.720 support we got came from the right and then came from the left.

00:12:26.480 But there was also a lot of the opposition came from the part of the right that you described,

00:12:31.540 but then also part of the left that was angry that we were making President Obama look bad.

00:12:36.040 It was one of the least partisan controversies that has existed in years.

00:12:41.500 And you see that to this very day.

00:12:42.940 A lot of liberals hate Snowden.

00:12:44.180 They think he's a Kremlin agent or whatever.

00:12:46.760 Whereas it's a lot of conservatives who care about individual rights and limited government

00:12:50.580 who are his biggest proponents.

00:12:52.660 Well, I think people can understand that there, in a way, is a sliding scale.

00:12:56.040 You know, when you're within a year or two of a massive terrorist attack on domestic soil,

00:13:00.420 I think most people are willing to shift the balance a bit on their civil liberties

00:13:04.000 to letting the government have more power and do what it needs to do to stop another attack.

00:13:08.840 But then, you know, the more time that passes, the less tolerant I think the American people

00:13:14.640 will be because it's not necessarily the solution long term.

00:13:18.800 And so, you know, I think now is a good time to have the debate about how we feel about this guy

00:13:23.180 and what should happen, you know, with him.

00:13:26.600 I don't know.

00:13:27.200 I think certainly Republicans are willing to have that debate now.

00:13:30.160 I think the biggest objection will be what message does it send to others if he gets a pardon?

00:13:34.520 You know, other...

00:13:35.120 I mean, the reality, though, you know, he has been punished, right?

00:13:37.980 Like he's been...

00:13:38.940 He didn't choose to be in Russia.

00:13:40.240 He was trying to transit through Russia on his way to Latin America.

00:13:43.880 And they, you know, the Obama State Department invalidated his passport.

00:13:47.680 He couldn't leave.

00:13:49.180 So he chose to be in Russia.

00:13:50.580 It's a country with which he has no connection.

00:13:52.680 He doesn't speak the language.

00:13:54.000 He's been separated from his family for seven years from his own country.

00:13:58.060 That's a pretty big price to pay, you know, seven years of exile.

00:14:01.720 So even if you think that he should be punished, notwithstanding that he exposed illegal and unconstitutional acts

00:14:06.880 on the part of the government, which seems like a weird thing to say about somebody who did,

00:14:09.900 but even if you think he should be punished, it kind of has been.

00:14:14.140 Because if Trump wants to pardon him, not that...

00:14:16.580 I don't know if Trump even thinks about, you know, PR and how it gets covered in this day and age,

00:14:20.900 but you'd need some PR cover for why it's just.

00:14:24.740 And the time in exile is probably a decent one.

00:14:27.940 You know, I look at that now just, you know, from the perspective of 2020,

00:14:31.160 and that is fearless journalism.

00:14:33.180 I mean, that is truly fearless journalism on your part.

00:14:35.600 That was a huge story.

00:14:36.700 You got a Pulitzer Prize.

00:14:37.680 So I am not alone in my thinking.

00:14:40.380 But to me, it's so funny, Glenn, because I think that's what most of the mainstream journalists think they're doing now.

00:14:48.220 They think they're little mini Glenn Greenwalds, and that they're out there exposing the truth,

00:14:53.640 speaking truth to power, you know, the Washington Post with democracy dies in darkness,

00:14:57.800 which I always laugh at because I'm like, well, I don't remember you, you know, with a democracy dies in darkness

00:15:03.300 when Barack Obama had his pen and his phone and was issuing these executive orders every other week.

00:15:08.500 But okay.

00:15:09.520 So what, I mean, what's your take on this sort of, you know, resistance journalism

00:15:14.340 and adherence to a cause at all costs going on today?

00:15:18.160 I really find it so repellent for so many reasons.

00:15:23.360 You know, first of all, the Obama administration was probably the single most menacing administration

00:15:29.600 when it came to press freedoms in decades.

00:15:32.560 Just, you know, as one example, they prosecuted more sources and whistleblowers under the Espionage Act,

00:15:40.060 this 1917 statue enacted by Woodrow Wilson to criminalize dissent over the U.S. involvement in World War I,

00:15:46.540 than all previous administrations combined.

00:15:50.340 And very few people in the media, you know, where was the Washington Post chaining its motto

00:15:54.020 to democracy dies in darkness?

00:15:55.400 There were some journalists saying, look, this is a huge threat to investigative journalism.

00:15:59.900 What's happening, this kind of threat to our sources, as you know, your colleague, James Rosen,

00:16:05.280 the Obama Justice Department under Eric Holder subpoenaed not just his phone records,

00:16:09.220 but his parents in order to find out who his source was for a story.

00:16:14.080 I couldn't leave Brazil for a year and a half, almost a year and a half during that senator reporting

00:16:18.360 because the Justice Department was saying, if you leave Brazil, there's a good chance we're going to arrest you.

00:16:23.200 Well, at least subpoena you, but we're probably going to arrest you.

00:16:25.860 So that's number one, is there were all kinds of very grave and real threats to press freedom

00:16:32.260 taking place during the Obama administration, and there was no hashtag resistance or media denunciations

00:16:38.560 except in very small sectors of the media, which is why I don't take very seriously what they're saying now.

00:16:44.040 Secondly, if you look at what they claim are the attacks on press freedom, it's usually things like Trump posted some insult,

00:16:54.520 some infantile insult about like Chuck Todd and Wolf Blitzer or, you know, said something mean to Jim Acosta.

00:17:01.560 Yeah, mean tweets.

00:17:02.380 And that is not a threat to press freedom.

00:17:06.920 You know, like I did reporting all last year in Brazil, and the government, the president himself,

00:17:11.900 threatened repeatedly to imprison me, and they actually tried to indict me.

00:17:14.820 That's an attack on press freedom.

00:17:16.800 Being insulted by Trump on Twitter is not an attack on press freedom.

00:17:24.540 Here's the question.

00:17:25.900 What does COVID-19 have to do with losing your home?

00:17:28.320 A lot of bad stuff has happened thanks to COVID-19.

00:17:31.440 A lot.

00:17:32.380 One thing you're probably not worried about is losing your home.

00:17:35.060 But the problem is that the FBI just reported that since the virus struck, cybercrime, cybercrime, Steve, is up 75%.

00:17:43.600 Another problem with coronavirus.

00:17:45.740 So you're thinking, all right, well, then, like, I shouldn't put my password in,

00:17:49.860 I shouldn't put my credit card in when I order stuff online at the Gap or whatever.

00:17:53.960 It's worse than that because the legal title to your home is online now.

00:17:59.620 And they call the crime home title theft.

00:18:01.760 And apparently, it's everywhere.

00:18:02.800 It's not like they can't get the bricks and mortar, but they can represent to others, Steve,

00:18:07.140 that they own what you think you own, and that pays benefits for them.

00:18:10.980 Right.

00:18:11.700 Right.

00:18:12.100 Not ideal.

00:18:13.320 No.

00:18:13.560 So it's cybercriminals.

00:18:14.580 They find the title to your home online.

00:18:16.140 You probably didn't even know it was there, but it is.

00:18:18.080 They forge your signature on a quick claim deed.

00:18:20.920 I feel like I'm back in law school.

00:18:22.020 The quick claim deed.

00:18:23.000 And then they refile as the new owner of your home.

00:18:27.000 You're off the title.

00:18:28.740 Oh, great.

00:18:29.960 They destroy you by taking out loans against your home.

00:18:32.720 That's how they get it.

00:18:33.600 So they get loans thanks to, look at my big home.

00:18:35.660 Look, you can cash this in if I don't pay you.

00:18:38.040 They steal the cash.

00:18:38.960 They stick you with the payments.

00:18:40.780 So you may not even know until you get the late payment or a foreclosure notice on your home.

00:18:45.920 That's how people are finding out.

00:18:47.100 Anyway, this can all be solved by home title lock.

00:18:50.420 They will protect your home's legal title.

00:18:52.580 Your home, as you know, is your most valuable asset.

00:18:54.660 It's your safe haven.

00:18:55.660 And home title lock will put a virtual barrier around your home's title.

00:18:59.280 The instant they detect tampering, they shut it down.

00:19:02.580 Shut it down, Steve.

00:19:04.480 So here's the story.

00:19:05.680 First things first.

00:19:06.360 You go to hometitlelock.com.

00:19:08.040 You register your address to see if you're already a victim.

00:19:11.300 Let's hope not.

00:19:12.260 Then you use code radio for 30 free days of protection.

00:19:15.380 Code radio at hometitlelock.com.

00:19:24.160 First of all, there's a profit model to it, right?

00:19:26.200 Like the New York Times was really struggling financially and became a really profitable

00:19:31.980 institution by turning themselves into-

00:19:34.400 Oh, they all were.

00:19:34.880 Just as an aside, let me tell you, at the end of Obama's second term, I was at the White

00:19:40.440 House Christmas party.

00:19:42.960 And, you know, they invite the journalists for one of those.

00:19:45.080 And I saw Lawrence O'Donnell of MSNBC and I said, hey, how you doing?

00:19:49.560 And he said, and I quote, I am on a sinking ship known as MSNBC.

00:19:55.900 And I kind of laughed.

00:19:57.840 It showed some self-awareness.

00:19:59.880 And Trump saved them.

00:20:02.020 He saved them, among other outlets.

00:20:05.040 He, I mean, yeah, I have friends at MSNBC who were on the verge of losing their jobs because

00:20:10.400 nobody was watching their program.

00:20:12.520 Because why would you?

00:20:14.180 Obama was treated as this kind of like quiet savior figure, which isn't very exciting.

00:20:20.480 It doesn't make you tune in.

00:20:22.820 You need to get people revved up and angry in order to get them to watch cable news.

00:20:27.500 And so Trump was the savior by being able to turn him into this kind of like existential threat to the

00:20:33.740 republic.

00:20:34.260 And so there is a real monetary and career incentive to wildly exaggerate the threat that

00:20:39.780 he poses.

00:20:41.480 That's number one.

00:20:42.560 You're absolutely right.

00:20:43.340 It was it's become a huge profit model for media to pretend that they're kind of on the

00:20:50.220 front lines of, you know, this unprecedented assault on democracy by this fascist dictator.

00:20:56.060 You see the rhetoric escalating.

00:20:57.620 Now they're essentially treating him almost like a like a as a Hitler figure.

00:21:01.840 But I also think, you know, there's that cynical motive, which is we make more money

00:21:06.480 getting people afraid, afraid and revved up with adrenaline.

00:21:10.180 But I think that like one of the things that has happened, which I find really disturbing

00:21:13.720 is that because journalists spend so much of their time on social media now, there's so

00:21:18.340 much of an incentive to ignore nuance.

00:21:21.820 Nuance gets you canceled on social media or at least ignored.

00:21:24.940 What gets you attention on social media, what gets you applause from your colleagues is

00:21:29.640 maximalist rhetoric.

00:21:31.660 And I think that when you stay on social media for long enough time, as they do, they start

00:21:36.880 it's kind of like a one of the most potent weapons of groupthink ever invented.

00:21:44.120 So if you keep hearing enough times that Trump is Hitler, even though there's a cynical motive

00:21:49.120 to say it, which is that people will watch your show or donate to your blog or follow

00:21:53.960 you on Twitter.

00:21:54.820 I think there's also like almost a sincere it's like a collective mania that takes place

00:22:00.920 that they keep feeding on one another and making themselves increasingly more unhinged.

00:22:07.200 Well, and then there's no there's no accountability.

00:22:08.820 They pay no price.

00:22:10.300 They get they get financially rewarded for going after him nonstop, no matter how small

00:22:15.280 the scandal, it will be inflated to an 11.

00:22:17.900 I mean, Russiagate is the best example of that.

00:22:19.880 But there's no accountability.

00:22:21.000 You know, like look at Rachel Maddow, what she did during Russiagate.

00:22:25.080 And now it's like, no, didn't happen.

00:22:27.640 Move on.

00:22:28.560 She went on every night and like talk about the Steele dossier as though it were real,

00:22:33.180 which everybody knows is a fraud.

00:22:34.820 It was obvious in the beginning it was a fraud, but it became increasingly obvious.

00:22:38.040 And she continued to push it, which is, you know, like essentially a document that says

00:22:42.360 this foreign power has taken over and infiltrated American institutions. 0.96

00:22:46.880 Not only that, every single completely unhinged conspiracy theory that can like really generate

00:22:52.540 hysteria among the population about a nuclear power in Moscow, she promoted.

00:22:57.980 I mean, she went on one night practically in tears, claimed that Russia had seized control

00:23:03.440 of the heating system of the United States at a time when it was like negative 40 degrees

00:23:07.620 in Fargo.

00:23:08.660 And she was like, what would you and your family do if the Kremlin shut off the heat when

00:23:13.560 it was negative 40 degrees?

00:23:15.000 You know, just the kind of it's almost like Alex Jones or QAnon level conspiracies.

00:23:20.740 But because it's serving an agenda that the mainstream press has decided is just exactly

00:23:26.900 people are willing to overlook it.

00:23:28.320 Not only is there no accountability, there's just lots of benefits.

00:23:30.740 She's become, you know, her ratings just went through the roof the more she fed her audience 1.00

00:23:35.520 unhinged conspiracy theories.

00:23:37.800 Yeah.

00:23:37.940 I mean, I used to be at nine on Fox and she was at nine on MSNBC and we crushed her all 1.00

00:23:43.560 the time.

00:23:43.920 She never once took a month off of me.

00:23:45.320 But we did have an adherence to fact on the show, good or bad for Republicans, good or

00:23:50.800 bad for Democrats.

00:23:51.560 And I see what I see now.

00:23:53.400 And I confess I don't watch her show.

00:23:54.820 I just see some clips from them is just freewheeling.

00:23:57.980 If it's bad for him, it gets on air.

00:23:59.380 That's it.

00:23:59.860 If it's bad for Trump, it gets on air.

00:24:01.520 And and if you're a reporter or a fact witness who has a different story to tell, you get

00:24:08.120 no airtime.

00:24:08.760 And speaking of Lawrence O'Donnell, he tweeted out not long ago that anyone defending Trump 0.97

00:24:15.460 and I think it was either on Russiagate or Ukraine, anyone defending Trump is a liar and 0.96

00:24:20.640 liars aren't welcome on MSNBC. 1.00

00:24:23.960 Yeah. 0.95

00:24:24.260 Yeah. 1.00

00:24:24.540 I mean, or, you know, you're either a liar and or a racist. 0.99

00:24:28.000 You know, it's interesting. 0.95

00:24:28.680 I mean, obviously, I have experience personally because I used to be really good friends with

00:24:31.700 Rachel Maddow before she got on MSNBC show when she was on Air America.

00:24:37.640 We used to go on all the time, used to bash the Democrats from the left about how they

00:24:41.920 were kind of a fraudulent political party.

00:24:43.500 She's very, very smart.

00:24:46.780 And same with Chris Hayes, who's been a longtime friend of mine who has a theater cox show on

00:24:52.400 MSNBC, thanks to Trump.

00:24:55.260 And I used to go on their both of their shows all the time, all the time, you know, to kind

00:25:02.520 of feed the audience whatever they felt like they wanted to have them fed.

00:25:07.640 And then once I became a critic of Russiagate, it just, I basically got banned from the network,

00:25:12.220 especially because I became a critic of their coverage of it.

00:25:14.800 Crickets.

00:25:15.080 And I find that so interesting because I know, like, I, you know, I didn't, I'd never watched

00:25:19.120 like any cable show constantly, but like, I would see your show and I know that you would

00:25:22.860 love one of the things you like best, probably because of your lawyer background, probably

00:25:26.060 because your personality is you would like to invite people on your show who were, had an

00:25:31.320 opinion different than yours so that you could kick the tires on the underlying rationale.

00:25:35.220 Right.

00:25:35.780 Like, it's so boring to just have people on constantly affirming your own assumptions

00:25:40.400 about the world.

00:25:41.460 Right.

00:25:41.800 And you learn nothing.

00:25:42.640 They completely backballed anyone who was a critic.

00:25:45.440 Like everybody who was a critic.

00:25:46.680 And that's why they created this echo chamber.

00:25:49.060 Are you saying you've been banned from MSNBC?

00:25:51.560 Yeah, totally.

00:25:52.580 I'm like formally banned.

00:25:53.840 You know, like I was first effectively banned.

00:25:55.780 Because I know I have tons of friends there.

00:25:57.600 I used to go on all the time.

00:25:58.620 Like I have producers who tried to book me and they get told, no, he's on the no book list.

00:26:03.040 And that's not even for, that's for your opinion that they covered Russiagate wrong,

00:26:07.840 which isn't, that's a fact at this point.

00:26:10.600 Yeah, it's for my dissent on Russiagate.

00:26:12.660 Exactly.

00:26:13.240 And like, and you know, the thing is there were other journalists dissenting on Russiagate,

00:26:19.920 you know, with a lot of accomplishments and credentials.

00:26:21.740 Like for example, Matt Taibbi, who is a longtime popular journalist from Rolling Stone, who did

00:26:28.240 amazing work on the 2008 financial crisis.

00:26:30.480 He was beloved by liberals on the left, but he lived in Russia for, I think, a decade

00:26:34.920 or so, speaks the language and understood from the start that this was all hysteria about

00:26:40.020 Putin and Moscow and the Kremlin and said so when he got banned.

00:26:43.360 I don't think he's been on MSNBC in about five years either.

00:26:47.280 That's what amazes me.

00:26:48.440 Not just that there's this prevailing orthodoxy, but that they will never allow anyone to question

00:26:55.260 or challenge them exactly because what Lawrence O'Donnell said, if you at all are perceived

00:26:58.960 as defending Trump, even if you don't like Trump ideologically or personally, but if

00:27:03.020 you say anything that pushes back against whatever anti-Trump narrative has been concocted, 0.99

00:27:08.060 you're a liar and a racist and therefore not welcoming good company. 1.00

00:27:10.700 Right. 1.00

00:27:10.880 Because not only do they have to say your point of view is wrong, i.e. 0.99

00:27:14.100 you're a liar, it's you are a bad person, which the left just does all the time. 0.99

00:27:18.320 You have to be completely discredited as a human. 1.00

00:27:21.480 It's not just viewpoint. 0.99

00:27:22.500 It's racist, bigot, sexist, xenophobe. 0.97

00:27:24.820 You know, take your pick. 0.98

00:27:25.920 They all work.

00:27:27.660 What about CNN?

00:27:28.920 Did they let you on?

00:27:33.380 CNN has become pretty similar to MSNBC.

00:27:37.400 I think the last time I was invited to CNN was earlier this year when I was indicted by

00:27:41.740 the Bolsonaro government for the reporting I was doing on Brian Stelter's show and I

00:27:45.820 ended up not going on.

00:27:46.800 But I don't think so.

00:27:47.580 And I'm not banned from there, but they very rarely have.

00:27:52.620 And they're either.

00:27:54.820 I don't know.

00:27:55.560 When's the last time you heard somebody on there defending President Trump or questioning

00:27:59.400 the Russiagate narrative?

00:28:01.720 CNN has reached out to me to have me on and I've said no every time.

00:28:04.720 But the times they reach out to me, they want me to rip on Trump.

00:28:08.860 I mean, it's like, oh, Trump did something to a woman.

00:28:11.360 Who should we get?

00:28:12.420 Megyn Kelly.

00:28:13.740 I have no desire to to play the role they want me to play.

00:28:16.680 It's like, look, if Trump said something controversially, you can talk about it.

00:28:19.940 I'm happy to talk about it.

00:28:20.840 But there's a reason they came to somebody like me.

00:28:23.220 And that's when they you know, they think I'm going to do what they need the puppet to

00:28:27.440 do.

00:28:28.320 Right.

00:28:28.740 They want you to be their little dancing conservative bear who, you know, like amuses 1.00

00:28:33.260 their audience while you criticize Trump.

00:28:35.080 And that's it's so interesting.

00:28:37.000 Exactly.

00:28:37.400 That's the only time they'll call.

00:28:39.200 So now they fear you because you're you founded The Intercept in 2013, which is amazing.

00:28:44.960 You guys love your reporting.

00:28:46.360 It's so interesting to read all of your reporters, too.

00:28:49.100 And you're officially on the outside.

00:28:51.240 I mean, you're you're in you're a place where I I also feel that I am now, you know,

00:28:56.520 now that I'm sort of free.

00:28:57.660 I'm outside of the conservative and the and the traditional media, which I like.

00:29:02.060 But you are you've been there for a while and you've been sort of poking and prodding

00:29:05.380 them.

00:29:05.700 And I thought you had a really interesting point earlier this week.

00:29:08.140 It was a column I read about how this is why they're also turning on Joe Rogan, because

00:29:13.900 he should be somebody they like.

00:29:15.820 He's he's a liberal.

00:29:17.280 You know, he he's not woke, but on most things, he's more progressive, but they can't stand

00:29:24.240 him.

00:29:24.380 And I think you tell me, but I think it's because he's not of them.

00:29:27.320 He's not beholden to them.

00:29:28.600 He's not going to kiss the ring.

00:29:30.080 And he's extremely powerful and successful now.

00:29:34.400 The resentment really came to the fore when there was a suggestion by one of Rogan's guests

00:29:38.700 that Rogan host a debate, a presidential debate, which is kind of like, as you know,

00:29:44.300 the most prestigious thing in media that you can do in a presidential election year.

00:29:48.900 And Trump was excited by it, probably taunting Biden, knowing he would never do it, saying

00:29:55.000 I would love to do it.

00:29:55.920 And the media acted like, you know, they had kind of asked just some like random homeless

00:30:03.600 person to come into their glittery realm and and and vandalize it with their their filth.

00:30:09.800 And, you know, Rogan has a way bigger audience than any of them have.

00:30:14.040 Yeah.

00:30:14.140 Um, and obviously there's a lot of resentment, there's a lot of professional jealousy, but

00:30:20.140 I really think what it is more than anything is kind of like this prioritization of culture

00:30:26.320 over politics.

00:30:27.560 I think like one of the things that a lot of people on the right don't fully understand

00:30:30.680 is that establishment liberals, you know, like kind of the dominoing of the Democratic

00:30:36.300 Party, they don't actually care about politics.

00:30:38.700 They're not socialists.

00:30:40.080 They serve the interest of Silicon Valley and Wall Street and K Street.

00:30:43.980 Um, and they're rich donors.

00:30:46.460 They're they're not at all socialists.

00:30:48.320 Most of them themselves are extremely rich and wealthy families.

00:30:51.500 Um, they they use some rhetoric that's populist in nature, but populism exists far more on the

00:30:56.920 right than it does on the establishment of the Democratic Party.

00:30:59.400 They don't really care about politics.

00:31:01.940 They're also not against war or imperialism.

00:31:04.860 Obama started lots of different wars.

00:31:06.840 Trump hasn't.

00:31:08.420 Um, what they care about is culture, dominating the culture.

00:31:11.560 And the reason they look at Joe Rogan and see an enemy, even though if you go down the

00:31:16.800 list, he's pro-choice, he's pro-gay rights, he believes in social spending, he's anti-war.

00:31:22.260 He endorsed Bernie Sanders.

00:31:23.520 He endorsed Bernie Sanders.

00:31:25.340 He knows exactly.

00:31:27.660 Even though, so why did they see an enemy?

00:31:29.600 When, because they don't care about politics, they care about culture.

00:31:31.860 And Rogan is not, he doesn't sound like them, right?

00:31:35.240 He's like a regular guy.

00:31:37.000 He like talks in regular jargon.

00:31:39.340 He likes hunting and MMA fighting.

00:31:41.900 He tells like some risque jokes.

00:31:44.500 So to them, he's like an interloper culturally.

00:31:47.980 And that's what they care about more than politics.

00:31:50.020 And that's why I think the, like the contempt for Rogan among liberals in the media, which

00:31:55.280 is sort of the same thing at this point.

00:31:56.600 Yes.

00:31:57.040 Is so revealing about what they prioritize.

00:31:58.720 So what I did think it was interesting, just one more minute on him, that he signed his

00:32:03.140 deal with Spotify and, and, you know, made a bunch of money off of it, but already there's

00:32:07.800 trouble, right?

00:32:08.520 Like he had on Abigail Schreier who wrote, so easy for me to say, irreversible damage, which

00:32:14.920 takes a hard look at transgender teens and why it seems to be increasing in frequency.

00:32:21.680 And they had a very thoughtful discussion.

00:32:23.540 I thought it was fascinating.

00:32:24.660 And I, I read the book and now there's a protest over there.

00:32:28.420 They want the episode pulled.

00:32:29.720 They want him pulled.

00:32:31.000 They want him punished.

00:32:31.760 And Spotify has reportedly had 10 meetings, not reportedly the CEO confessed.

00:32:35.920 They have, they had 10 meetings about this.

00:32:38.060 And it made me wonder, can Joe Rogan last at Spotify?

00:32:42.300 Can this relationship last?

00:32:44.760 Yeah.

00:32:45.000 It's so fascinating.

00:32:47.300 You know, first of all, I look at it kind of through the prism a lot of the primary success

00:32:54.340 of a social movement in my lifetime that affected my life most, which is the gay rights movement,

00:32:58.380 you know, like of age as a gay teenager in the eighties with the moral majority and the

00:33:03.640 Reagan era, no one thought anything like gay marriage was even remotely possible that

00:33:07.460 I've owned the full panoply of legal rights.

00:33:09.140 And with my lifetime, that has happened.

00:33:11.380 And one of the reasons it's happened is because so many people who wanted this profound social

00:33:15.720 change engaged in the debate, right?

00:33:18.360 Like said, Hey, like you have these ideas about who I am, what my life is like, that aren't

00:33:22.720 actually true.

00:33:23.560 So get to know me, talk to me.

00:33:25.320 I understand that you were raised to think differently.

00:33:27.480 You have religious convictions that lead you to a different place.

00:33:30.460 Let's have a dialogue so that you can actually see the reality of our humanity.

00:33:34.640 It wasn't this like coercive demand that everybody swallowed this truth.

00:33:39.040 I'm not saying there were no elements of the gay rights movement that did that, but by 0.99

00:33:41.620 and large, it was successful because it was persuasive.

00:33:46.280 And now like around these, this trans issue, there's like almost this kind of demand that

00:33:51.260 nobody asked any questions about these really profound changes that are being demanded about

00:33:57.020 how we think about gender, how we think about sex, how we think about the choices of children

00:34:02.240 to make permanent.

00:34:03.620 And this is what I find so interesting.

00:34:05.000 You know, I, I have this media outlet in that's based in New York.

00:34:08.340 So I go a lot to New York and I, a lot of my colleagues are, you know, journalists who

00:34:12.600 send their kids to very liberal private schools in Brooklyn and Manhattan.

00:34:16.100 And a lot of their, their teenage children, their, a lot of their teenage children have

00:34:21.120 friends who are trans.

00:34:23.060 So like 15 year old trans boys who have already had their breasts removed at the age of 15 0.98

00:34:29.940 or, you know, the other way of trans women who have had genital reassignment, sexual reassignment

00:34:36.340 surgery involved in their genitals that are permanent changes that they're making at the age 0.71

00:34:39.600 of 15 to 16.

00:34:40.360 And if you talk to these journalists, they'll tell you at dinner over a glass of wine that

00:34:45.080 they're very disturbed by the question that we don't really have a lot of science about,

00:34:50.380 about whether kids are too young to be making these decisions about whether people are being

00:34:55.360 misdiagnosed with gender dysphoria who actually have other problems in the culture.

00:34:58.760 It's encouraging them to think that they're trans when they're like, people have those 1.00

00:35:02.320 questions, people in the privacy of their home ask the questions that Joe Rogan asked,

00:35:06.180 but those journalists would never, ever write about it or publicly say it because they're

00:35:12.100 too scared to, they're too beholden to liberal orthodoxy and Joe Rogan's not.

00:35:17.540 And that's why they hate him because they can't control him.

00:35:21.480 I mean, I know, I'm sure you can relate.

00:35:23.020 I, I can definitely relate to that.

00:35:25.080 I'm, I've always been somebody who will go there.

00:35:27.340 You know, my old executive producer at the Kelly file used to say, MK, you like to go to

00:35:31.700 the place that hurts.

00:35:32.480 And there's a reason for that.

00:35:34.340 I, I like you believe there's no harm in having tough discussions and, you know, poking sort

00:35:41.380 of spots that may be uncomfortable.

00:35:43.060 And I also feel it's our job to be antagonistic towards the subjects and the, and the people

00:35:48.060 we cover and to be skeptical that we get paid to be skeptical and suddenly on certain issues

00:35:52.660 is one of the things that's driving me nuts about covering trans issues or covering black

00:35:56.880 lives matter is you're not allowed to be skeptical.

00:35:59.660 If you are skeptical, there's something wrong with you. 0.94

00:36:02.120 You know, you're anti black people or you're anti LGBT, you know, trans people that just 0.95

00:36:07.640 isn't true.

00:36:08.680 And it's alienating to people who would like to be an ally, right.

00:36:13.260 But like to help in ways that are reasonable and that we can get on board with, you know,

00:36:16.900 you don't, you don't want to support racism, but you also don't support somebody going over

00:36:20.480 to somebody's restaurant table in the middle of the evening and saying, you raise your fist

00:36:24.140 right now and say BLM or else that it's baloney.

00:36:27.060 Yeah.

00:36:28.000 I mean, what is the purpose of, of journalism?

00:36:30.860 If it doesn't challenge and question orthodoxies, if all it's doing is kind of submitting to

00:36:37.320 them and reciting them and echoing them, um, you know, it's a very kind of authoritarian

00:36:43.040 approach to say, you can't actually question things.

00:36:47.980 And if you question things, um, we're going to declare you off limits.

00:36:53.520 Right.

00:36:53.860 And I go back to, you know, again, like the gay rights movement.

00:36:56.740 I remember, you know, like when I was 25 and 30, people would say, you know, there's something

00:37:00.900 I really don't understand.

00:37:03.120 Like how do two men or two women end up married or how do they have sex? 0.59

00:37:08.740 And like, you know, you could like, you could easily, if you wanted to just kind of scorn 0.98

00:37:12.940 them and say, you're a bigot, you're, you know, hateful and, and, or you could say, God,

00:37:17.940 I'm so happy for the opportunity that you want to have that discussion.

00:37:21.320 Let's like talk about that and engage in that kind of debate.

00:37:25.240 And I think one of the things that has happened is exactly as you suggest, which is that the

00:37:30.100 kind of liberal left tactic to win debates is to bar them from happening.

00:37:37.660 Um, and it's very alienating to people who are prospective allies and, you know, it can

00:37:43.680 work in the short term, but I do think eventually it's going to drive a lot of people away because

00:37:48.440 who wants to be part of a subculture or an ideology that says that you're required and

00:37:54.360 forced upon pain of being condemned as a bad human to accept orthodoxies and pieties that

00:37:59.880 don't actually even understand, let alone get agree with.

00:38:05.460 So we're going to be doing some features on the show for you all, and we're going to call

00:38:09.700 this one real talk.

00:38:10.980 Uh, it's just a moment that happened in my life that I thought might be worth sharing.

00:38:15.300 Uh, for the first time last week, I saw four of my best friends who I hadn't seen in six

00:38:22.640 months.

00:38:23.340 And let me tell you, it was glorious.

00:38:26.300 We're all New Yorkers.

00:38:27.620 We were last together on a ski vacation out in Montana in March.

00:38:31.680 It was right before everything happened.

00:38:33.820 And, you know, we didn't even know that there was going to be a quarantine and we're all

00:38:37.100 moms.

00:38:37.580 We're all raising our kids together here.

00:38:39.340 So we went six months, like most of us without seeing each other.

00:38:42.520 We had zoom calls, you know, we actually played, um, flip cup, you know, flip cup one

00:38:47.260 time via zoom, which is not ideal, but doable.

00:38:50.400 Interestingly.

00:38:50.840 Um, and this is the first time at least four of our seven woman posse got together. 1.00

00:38:56.520 And, uh, I have to tell you, you know, you have to eat outside here in New York, like

00:39:00.940 pretty much everywhere.

00:39:01.720 And, uh, as I walked up the sidewalk and saw them sitting there, cause I was last to arrive.

00:39:08.240 They looked amazing that it was a beautiful night.

00:39:12.860 There was a warm breeze.

00:39:14.700 We had a couple of drinks and it was, it was a feeling of freedom.

00:39:19.940 You know, it was, it was happiness and just friendship, you know, seeing your friends face

00:39:25.240 to face and you don't have to wear the mask at the table.

00:39:27.420 Um, and it turns out one, one is getting engaged.

00:39:30.620 One is about to have a baby.

00:39:32.520 So it was just, I'm, I was launching this podcast.

00:39:34.920 So we got to talk about that.

00:39:35.960 It was just, sometimes it's not like these huge events in your life that matter.

00:39:39.860 It's just those little moments, right?

00:39:41.660 Like a, like an evening out with friends.

00:39:43.780 So if you can make it happen, I recommend it.

00:39:46.980 So one other thing that I wanted to tell you is that we're going to be answering your questions

00:39:50.480 here.

00:39:50.840 So if you have anything that you want to ask, uh, fire away, it can be personal.

00:39:55.160 It can be professional.

00:39:55.760 It can be about the news.

00:39:56.820 It can be about the show, um, whatever's on your mind.

00:39:59.440 So the email to reach me is questions, plural at devilmaycaremedia.com questions at devilmaycaremedia.com.

00:40:09.240 And, um, we'll get back to you on the show with our favorites and, you know, the ones that

00:40:14.300 stand out to us and, you know, hopefully we can keep it back and forth going.

00:40:17.260 Even if it's comments on the show and you want to follow up, maybe I can run down some

00:40:20.320 news for you.

00:40:21.280 So that's how we can be in touch.

00:40:22.520 Personally, the one, probably the greatest gift, the greatest positive thing to come

00:40:29.260 out of my, you know, very negative ending at NBC was a freedom, you know, a liberation

00:40:35.540 to just, once you've been called awful things by every publication in the country, you know,

00:40:40.900 that's run by these folks, you're free.

00:40:43.780 You know, it's like, so I'm just going to talk honestly about these subjects and what

00:40:47.740 are you going to do?

00:40:48.260 You're going to say something bad about me yet.

00:40:50.440 That's happened.

00:40:51.260 You already fired that bullet and I'm good.

00:40:53.200 So on we go.

00:40:54.700 Yeah, I know.

00:40:56.800 I'm so glad to hear you say that.

00:40:58.280 I think one of the really interesting things is that if you look at the media ecosystem,

00:41:05.540 you know, the kind of like economic structure of it, the outlets where you're forced to recite

00:41:10.600 these orthodoxies upon pain of being fired are doing very poorly.

00:41:14.300 If you look at who's thriving independently, it is people like Joe Rogan.

00:41:19.440 You know, like Andrew Sullivan, for example, got forced out of his column at New York Magazine

00:41:23.840 because a lot of the millennials at New York Magazine thought he was a white supremacist,

00:41:27.580 think that he's a racist, think that he can't, doesn't deserve to be in decent company.

00:41:33.260 And he went on Substack and his audience followed him.

00:41:36.480 And I think he tripled or quadrupled his income.

00:41:38.800 That's happening over and over.

00:41:40.140 Same thing with Matt Taibbi, who kind of got forced out of Rolling Stone and that was making

00:41:44.380 way more money than he was ever making at Rolling Stone.

00:41:47.600 The podcasts that are doing well are the ones who refuse to be captive to this.

00:41:52.240 These pieties.

00:41:54.640 So there's a hunger for people to say, I'm kind of free from it.

00:41:58.760 And you are, right?

00:41:59.740 Exactly as you said, what else can they do to you?

00:42:02.100 No, nothing else.

00:42:02.860 I kind of wonder just why we're, I wonder the like, why we're on that topic.

00:42:05.900 Like, do you, because the way like that it all kind of played out was, you know,

00:42:12.040 you made your comments about blackface.

00:42:13.880 I was explaining it to my husband.

00:42:15.020 He's Brazilian as we were trying to do this show.

00:42:16.920 And I was saying like, she was kind of like just asking why it is that it always has to

00:42:22.600 be viewed as malicious.

00:42:23.560 Like, is there a way that you could do something like that non-maliciously? 0.85

00:42:26.780 Like you, you know, adore a black celebrity, a black athlete, a black actor.

00:42:31.560 Yeah.

00:42:31.760 Does intent matter?

00:42:32.980 Does intent matter?

00:42:33.860 Exactly.

00:42:35.080 You were trying to ask that question.

00:42:36.740 I do wonder, like, do you regret kind of apologizing for it?

00:42:41.740 Or do you feel like your apology was justified because for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly,

00:42:49.200 people were hurt by the comments and you feel like an apology is justified if people are hurt?

00:42:54.940 You know, that's a really good question.

00:42:56.380 And I've asked myself that many times.

00:42:58.300 I think I'm not I'm not sorry that I said sorry, because I do think some people, especially

00:43:05.040 people who have just been reading the media interpretation of what I said, which was they

00:43:08.840 presented it as though I was defending minstrel show blackface and wanted it to return to the

00:43:13.340 airwaves immediately, you know, which wasn't anywhere close to the truth.

00:43:17.300 I was just trying to start a discussion because I had noticed when I was a kid.

00:43:21.040 And as it turns out, very recently, prior to my remarks, people were wearing blackface.

00:43:26.660 This this, you know, this whether it was as an homage or otherwise, they were wearing

00:43:30.660 it.

00:43:31.460 And as it turns out, NBC itself was putting out at least five different shows as recently

00:43:36.200 as a couple of years before my discussion about it with characters in blackface.

00:43:40.360 So I think it was a good discussion to try to start.

00:43:44.000 So I don't if people misunderstood the point I was trying to make, I think it's I've usually

00:43:48.680 been quick to apologize as opposed to just, you know, stand in my my principle and say,

00:43:53.800 you misunderstood me and no one gets it.

00:43:55.580 However, I also think I made the mistake of believing that most of my critics were coming

00:44:01.120 to me in good faith.

00:44:02.800 And what I've seen since then is that wasn't true.

00:44:07.540 They were on the war path from you from the beginning.

00:44:09.520 They saw you as somebody who didn't who shouldn't have been there.

00:44:12.660 And not just not just them.

00:44:13.940 But I mean, look at the media, you know, look at even just a couple of weeks ago, Joy

00:44:18.280 Behar was on The View.

00:44:19.200 Now, she, unlike yours truly, has actually worn blackface and she was defending it by 0.94

00:44:25.560 saying, well, it wasn't really blackface because I meant it as an homage.

00:44:30.160 Well, Glenn, that's exactly what I was trying to ask.

00:44:33.500 Would that make a difference?

00:44:35.420 Would that make a difference?

00:44:36.580 I didn't say, yes, it would.

00:44:37.860 And we should all be doing that.

00:44:39.200 I said, would it?

00:44:39.880 And, you know, all hell broke loose.

00:44:42.440 So I sent out a tweet saying, gee, I, you know, she should be careful because even asking

00:44:47.160 whether intent matters can get you on The New York Times and The Washington Post and

00:44:52.280 it can get you on Nightly News on NBC and World News Tonight on ABC and GMA, which ran

00:44:56.280 several stories about it.

00:44:57.080 I just wonder whether GMA and World News Tonight are going to cover their own host, either

00:45:02.020 Jimmy Kimmel, who were it repeatedly or Joy Behar.

00:45:04.880 And guess what?

00:45:06.400 Bob Kiss.

00:45:06.860 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:45:08.660 I think I think that was a rhetorical question from the start.

00:45:11.100 You kind of knew the answer.

00:45:12.580 My only point is that there was no good faith by the media outlets covering it and by the

00:45:17.120 vast majority of critics who just wanted, you know, a scalp.

00:45:20.260 I think people see that, you know, you know, media, the media loves to whine very sanctimoniously

00:45:28.600 about the fact that no one trusts them.

00:45:30.820 People turn to fake news sites.

00:45:32.240 They've been taught to look at media outlets as fake news.

00:45:35.640 People have lost trust and faith in authoritative media outlets.

00:45:41.260 And there's no self-reflection about why.

00:45:44.340 It's always someone else's fault.

00:45:46.300 It's always they're the unjust victims of a defamation campaign.

00:45:49.860 And I think that, you know, when they do something like this year, I think the most

00:45:53.060 degree just example was they were shaming everybody who stepped out of their house for to go to

00:45:58.820 church, to have a funeral, to do a political rally that had a cause that they didn't agree

00:46:03.780 with.

00:46:04.420 They were denounced as being selfish, as killing grandma. 0.97

00:46:07.060 And then suddenly these Black Lives Matter protests broke out all over the country where

00:46:11.000 tens of thousands of people were packed in extremely dense crowds, one on top of the

00:46:14.920 other.

00:46:15.200 They were at exactly the moment where the pandemic was at its peak and everybody in the media

00:46:19.740 not only was afraid to condemn it or denounce it or shame it the way they had been doing

00:46:23.420 for other gatherings that they didn't like, but they were praising it, saying that it's

00:46:27.340 actually justified from the public.

00:46:28.960 And I think people see the fraudulent nature of that.

00:46:32.760 You know, they don't believe, unlike the media, that the virus knows whether you're there to support

00:46:39.280 Trump or, to say, BLM, or for that matter, to mourn Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

00:46:44.240 They know the virus does not discriminate in that manner.

00:46:48.740 Right.

00:46:49.420 Epidemiologically, the virus does not enter your body if it decides that you're supporting

00:46:53.640 a right-wing cause as opposed to a left-wing cause.

00:46:55.860 No, honestly, it was right around the time all those protests and I was in the grocery store

00:46:59.540 and I had headphones on and I had sunglasses on.

00:47:03.760 And so I kind of had the feel that my mask was still on me and it wasn't.

00:47:07.200 I had forgotten it in my pocket and for a second there, I was like, oh my God, I don't have

00:47:11.360 my mask on me.

00:47:12.640 And, you know, I had a couple of looks and I was like, oh, Black Lives Matter.

00:47:16.720 And they were like, oh, you go, girl.

00:47:20.800 Yeah, yeah.

00:47:21.560 It entitles you to do anything.

00:47:23.000 Just there's no, all the limits are abolished instantly.

00:47:27.540 All right.

00:47:27.800 So I got to ask you before I let go, we got to talk about the election.

00:47:30.940 I'm dying to know, because I know you're not, you're not big on voting and I'm just going

00:47:35.300 to guess you're not going to support, I mean, Trump's done some things you like, but like,

00:47:39.860 I know you were a Bernie guy.

00:47:40.960 So who, who are you going to vote for?

00:47:42.880 Are you going to share that?

00:47:43.700 If you were going to vote, who would you support?

00:47:46.360 Yeah.

00:47:46.560 I mean, I, I end up not voting just for the standard journalistic reason.

00:47:51.400 It's like one of the few traditional journalism precepts that I end up believing in that if

00:47:55.580 you do vote, you kind of even psychologically attach yourself to a candidate in a way that can

00:48:00.760 affect your independence, I prefer not to, you know, be a supporter of anyone because I want

00:48:07.120 to remain skeptical and adversarial to anyone who wields power.

00:48:11.660 And I also think there's something a little pompous about like announcing my vote, like

00:48:15.460 I'm endorsing somebody or encouraging somebody to vote.

00:48:18.720 I prefer to just give people information that they can use to make their own decisions about

00:48:22.420 who to vote for.

00:48:24.120 But what I absolutely do reject is the prevailing liberal discourse that looks at Trump as some

00:48:29.120 sort of grave threat to the Republic as some kind of, you know, I think Trump is much

00:48:33.780 more of a continuation of the American political tradition than he is a departure or aberration

00:48:38.000 from it, except, you know, in these kind of like rhetorical and stylistic ways where

00:48:42.680 he's obviously different.

00:48:45.440 So I don't accept this, you know, sort of melodramatic proclamation that this is the

00:48:51.080 gravest and most important election in the history of the United States or democracy is

00:48:54.920 on the line.

00:48:55.480 Um, you know, I think that each candidate is better in some ways and in worse than others.

00:49:01.200 Mm hmm.

00:49:01.780 Do you, the thing about Biden that everybody talks about is whether he's all there.

00:49:07.220 You know, I mean, I, I feel like as a matter of factual reporting, you cannot deny that he,

00:49:14.300 he's in cognitive decline.

00:49:16.260 I don't, I think it's okay to talk about.

00:49:18.260 And I think it's pretty clear.

00:49:20.620 Um, there was a, there was, there was an exchange, like, it was just a couple of weeks ago that

00:49:25.160 I thought really sort of put a point on it.

00:49:26.860 I'm going to play it and you can react after.

00:49:29.360 Because if you could take care, if you were a quartermaster, you can sure and help take care

00:49:35.280 of running a, you know, department store, uh, thing, you know, where, and the second floor

00:49:41.600 of the ladies department or whatever, you know what I mean?

00:49:43.340 What, what, I mean, it's honestly sad, you know, and this is so interesting, Megan, because

00:49:52.680 as you probably recall, the primary, um, in the democratic party came down to Biden and

00:49:59.060 Bernie.

00:49:59.320 And so those of us in the media who started when Biden was one of the two only last standing

00:50:05.680 choices were raising this issue of cognitive decline.

00:50:08.900 And a lot of the people who were kind of the guardians of the democratic party were saying

00:50:12.160 this is such a low life, you know, um, below the belt tactic to raise this.

00:50:17.920 And then I went back and I looked and what I saw was that through all of 2018 and 2019,

00:50:22.580 the people who were most disseminating this narrative about Biden were the democratic

00:50:28.340 establishment.

00:50:29.160 They were petrified that he was way in the lead, that he was by far the biggest, uh, most

00:50:34.200 known candidate.

00:50:35.160 And they didn't believe that he had the capacity to endure the grueling rigors of an election.

00:50:40.220 And you can find on Morning Joe and on every MSNBC show and CNN show democratic, you know,

00:50:46.460 operatives, strategists, consultants saying, I don't think Biden has the mental capacity

00:50:52.180 any longer to run a campaign.

00:50:54.060 It was Cory Booker and Julian Castro in the debate who like essentially mocked him for

00:50:57.600 forgetting, forgetting what he had said just like moments earlier.

00:51:01.040 They're the ones who raised those issues because they were petrified that Biden was going to

00:51:05.100 become a nominee and be so obviously incapable.

00:51:08.500 What saved him is the COVID pandemic, like that he gets to just stay in his basement and

00:51:12.980 everyone kind of understands that's the best thing that ever happened to him.

00:51:16.400 But he's so obviously in cognitive decline.

00:51:18.700 Like we all recognize it in our elderly relatives and people that it's sad to see.

00:51:24.180 Right.

00:51:24.340 It's one thing if it's your elderly relative, like all my mom has to do is like send out 0.99

00:51:28.400 the electric bill once a month.

00:51:29.820 But Joe Biden's going to have access to the nuclear codes and like decisions about whether

00:51:34.500 to start war and who to appoint.

00:51:35.920 Like the thing is, what's what's really hilarious is if you watch how MSNBC hosts interview him,

00:51:42.780 because like that's the only place that they'll basically go at this point.

00:51:45.120 Like Nicole Wallace, I think was the first.

00:51:46.680 She talked to him in the most like patronizing voice.

00:51:49.320 You know that like soft, sweet voice that you use for like elderly grandparents who are

00:51:54.880 ailing in a nursing home.

00:51:56.000 You're like, hi, grandpa.

00:51:57.120 Oh, God.

00:51:57.760 Like you would fake laugh at all their jokes.

00:52:00.180 That's how she treated him.

00:52:01.640 Like everyone knows it, but we're all supposed to just like pretend it's not happening.

00:52:05.520 Well, to your point earlier, she's openly declared that she's not going to vote for

00:52:08.580 Trump and she's going to vote for him.

00:52:09.920 So talk about I don't know whether this is a straight news journalist or, you know, she's

00:52:13.600 trying to even pretend to be or what.

00:52:15.460 But, you know, I don't think a journalist should be declaring who they're voting for if

00:52:19.240 they're voting.

00:52:20.180 And, you know, she's sort of shown her cards in a way that was pretty surprising to me when

00:52:24.500 she did it.

00:52:24.960 But let me ask you this, because speaking of the media and Biden, you guys are the ones

00:52:30.380 your reporter, Ryan Grimm, is the one who broke the Tara Reade story as Joe Biden's accuser

00:52:36.160 that he was sort of following her Twitter and he repeated some of the things she said

00:52:39.980 and wrote an article.

00:52:40.640 And I was like, what?

00:52:41.360 And then she went on, was it Katie Herzog's show?

00:52:46.940 Yeah, Katie Halpert. 0.60

00:52:48.580 Sorry, Katie Halpert's show. 0.90

00:52:50.220 Then she went on Katie Halpert's show.

00:52:51.560 So I feel like the media has done its level best to run cover for him on the Tara Reade

00:52:58.220 story, whether you believe Tara Reade or you don't.

00:53:01.000 The way they've treated those allegations versus the way they treated the allegations against

00:53:05.140 Trump and against Brett Kavanaugh is starkly different.

00:53:09.380 That was always my issue, right?

00:53:11.480 Like what happened was Ryan got wind of this and we didn't want to get behind it as a news

00:53:18.200 story saying, here's an accuser because we couldn't tell whether or not it was true.

00:53:23.100 And we didn't want to give our journalistic imprimatur to these allegations without any

00:53:28.040 evidence about whether that's truth that it's journalistically wrong to do, notwithstanding

00:53:33.920 what was done to Trump and Brett Kavanaugh.

00:53:35.260 So what Ryan decided to do instead was to report it from the hypocrisy angle that she

00:53:39.700 had gone, Tara Reade did, to Time's Up, that Hollywood-based advocacy group for sexual assault 1.00

00:53:47.060 victims and asked them to represent her. 0.96

00:53:49.360 And they've done this in a thousand cases.

00:53:51.400 And of course, they didn't want to do it because they want Biden to win. 0.86

00:53:53.620 So they concocted this bullshit explanation of excuse about why they weren't going to represent

00:54:00.140 her, which is, oh, we're a 501c3 group and we can't get involved in elections. 0.91

00:54:04.600 But all you're not allowed to do if you're a 501c3 group is advocate for a candidate explicitly.

00:54:09.900 It was such an obvious pretext to avoid doing it.

00:54:12.200 So we reported that.

00:54:12.940 And the irony of that, Glenn.

00:54:14.440 So my issue always was, it was never, I never, it was never, I believe Tara, sorry, go ahead.

00:54:21.560 I was going to say the irony of that is that, so in their, in their purported attempt to

00:54:25.280 not take a side, to not, you know, back one candidate or the other, is of course they were

00:54:29.160 just running cover for Biden because it turns out Anita Dunn, who's running PR for him, is 0.81

00:54:35.840 running PR for Time's Up.

00:54:37.240 Her firm is, you know, senior counsel to or advisor to Time's Up.

00:54:41.460 And which, you know, I'm sure Tara Reade had no idea of when she got rejected. 1.00

00:54:45.640 And she, Anita Dunn was also the primary public relations advisor for Harvey Weinstein.

00:54:52.720 So the whole edifice is based on like such a weaponization of this issue for cynical and

00:54:59.400 exploitative reasons.

00:55:01.320 And that was always my issue was not, I believe Tara Reade, because how can I believe Tara Reade,

00:55:06.560 right?

00:55:06.760 She has claims that she made about what happened in a hallway in the Senate 20 years ago.

00:55:11.440 Which Biden denies.

00:55:12.560 I have no rational basis for adjudicating who I believe or who I don't believe.

00:55:17.200 What I found so objectionable was that the standards that have been promulgated under

00:55:21.960 the phrase, believe women, that got applied to why we should all believe Christine Blasey

00:55:26.940 Ford, even though there was just as little corroborating evidence for her allegations, and

00:55:31.700 Brett Kavanaugh denied it just as vehemently.

00:55:34.300 You have to have consistent standards for how this is treated.

00:55:37.160 Otherwise, what you're going to do is you're going to make everybody cease to take allegations

00:55:41.420 of sexual harassment seriously if you just start weaponizing it in this flagrantly cynical

00:55:46.080 way for your own partisan benefit.

00:55:48.500 And that's exactly what has been done.

00:55:50.920 Tara Reade has more evidence on her side than Christine Blasey Ford had. 0.62

00:55:56.160 By any standard, Christine Blasey Ford did not have a witness to whom she recounted this

00:56:02.400 alleged incident within days, 30 years ago.

00:56:07.780 That's what Tara Reade has. 1.00

00:56:09.260 She's got a witness, a very credible, professional family woman who's from the Southeast, who I

00:56:15.820 spoke with at length and so have the other journalists looking into this, who remembers

00:56:19.680 distinctly.

00:56:20.340 And she's got a neighbor, she told two years after that.

00:56:22.580 And she's got a third person, she told shortly after that.

00:56:25.140 And she's got her mother.

00:56:26.100 You guys broke this too.

00:56:27.240 Her mother calling into Larry King saying her daughter's been harassed.

00:56:29.680 Now, that could have been anything, so that's not as persuasive.

00:56:32.000 But she's got way more.

00:56:34.120 And they're like, you know, that's not that interesting. 0.70

00:56:37.400 But could we talk about Brett Kavanaugh's gang rape again? 0.97

00:56:40.640 It's like totally made up lies. 0.69

00:56:42.620 I mean, they, like the media during the Brett Kavanaugh thing, not only promoted Christine

00:56:47.960 Blasey Ford, but people forget this.

00:56:49.380 You can go back.

00:56:50.360 They promoted Michael Avenatti's thing with Julie Swetnick.

00:56:54.740 Rachel Maddow, I found the video during the Tara Reade controversy, was so exciting.

00:56:59.680 She was excited to announce that she had gotten Michael Avenatti an exclusive interview for

00:57:04.200 him to talk about Julie Swetnick's gang rape charges and put that on the air.

00:57:09.680 And, you know, I think the other thing I think it gets back to, though, of course, there's

00:57:13.860 like the partisan angle, which is people wanted to believe Christine Blasey Ford because they

00:57:17.780 wanted to stop Brett Kavanaugh from getting appointed to the court and discredit Tara Reade

00:57:21.340 because she's accusing Joe Biden.

00:57:22.700 There's that angle, obviously.

00:57:24.200 But there's also that same cultural angle that we talked about with Joe Rogan, which is

00:57:28.020 look at Tara Reade and look at Christine Blasey Ford.

00:57:30.280 Christine Blasey Ford is this well-groomed, upper-middle-class woman with a PhD. 1.00

00:57:35.880 She's, like, in the, like, exactly the kind of cultural milieu that coastal liberals love 0.76

00:57:42.440 and identify with.

00:57:43.940 Whereas Tara Reade is more similar to, like, the Bill Clinton accusers, like Paula Jones and 0.93

00:57:50.160 Juanita Broderick.

00:57:51.020 And those kind of people who, you know, as James Carville famously said, drag a $10 bill

00:57:56.120 through a trailer park and you can pretty much find anything.

00:57:59.000 So I think a lot of it is that cultural bias that comes back again, that what matters most

00:58:03.540 is are you a cultural liberal?

00:58:05.200 Somebody with whom they identify? 0.60

00:58:06.980 Or are you this kind of, like, icky working-class person who exudes middle-of-the-country vibes? 0.71

00:58:12.820 And that determines so much of how you're evaluated as a human being by our media culture.

00:58:18.680 Well, boy, did they miss Judge Tara because she, up until now, was a pretty committed progressive 0.85

00:58:23.920 and, you know, clearly has rethought that commitment in the wake of what has been done

00:58:28.860 to her.

00:58:29.380 But it's up to the audience to figure out whether she's being truthful or not.

00:58:32.660 If you want to see, I did a lengthy interview with her, you can go check it out on YouTube.

00:58:36.240 All right, final question.

00:58:37.800 So where do we go from here?

00:58:39.000 We have a disgusting media that's incredibly broken.

00:58:43.100 What do we do with it?

00:58:44.260 Does it survive?

00:58:45.660 I mean, I think, you know, one of the things we tried to do in 2013 when we created The

00:58:51.360 Intercept was to kind of create a media outlet that could be trusted across the political

00:58:55.720 spectrum, that even if we had political ideologies, we would be open about them, but we would do

00:59:00.300 reporting regardless of where it took us.

00:59:02.800 And to me, I think that has to be the, and I'm not saying we fulfilled that as much as I

00:59:07.960 would have liked, I think we still have work to do, but I still think that's the model.

00:59:11.460 And I think there is a really underappreciated craving in the public for journalists who can

00:59:20.280 be trusted that way, who can report on things in a way that will contradict or undermine what

00:59:28.040 their political ideology might be without trying to deceive and manipulate them.

00:59:33.900 And I think the internet enables independent media to thrive.

00:59:38.280 I mean, again, you look at Joe Rogan's platform, like we all ignore it in the media, in the

00:59:42.680 mainstream media, but he's talking to 15 million people and not just 15 million people, but like

00:59:47.360 15 million people who aren't committed partisans, who can go one way or the other, which is a lot

00:59:52.060 more valuable than an audience of 5 million who are squirrely in one camp or the other.

00:59:56.560 Um, so I think that there's a lot of kind of undercurrents that this dissatisfaction with

01:00:01.700 the media is giving rise to, um, this independent ecosystem that can reach a lot of people.

01:00:09.200 And obviously like that dynamic that you're talking about is when I feel myself, which

01:00:13.020 is a lot of times, like when I feel myself getting ejected from, you know, or expelled from

01:00:20.560 decent mainstream precincts, it's so liberating, right?

01:00:24.960 It's so emboldening if you like wake up the next day and you're not like homeless and you

01:00:29.480 say, okay, I survived that.

01:00:30.660 I don't actually need them.

01:00:32.120 Now I can go speak really freely, you know, as you described.

01:00:36.000 Um, and I think that the more people they alienate that way, the more people they turn against

01:00:40.360 them, which is always what these kinds of insular authoritarian cultures do, the more people 0.81

01:00:45.600 they're going to kind of create their own adversaries, their own enemies.

01:00:48.420 And I think that is where I find my optimism is this kind of like counter backlash that

01:00:53.660 they're creating just through their own repellent behavior.

01:00:57.020 Amen.

01:01:00.580 And our thanks to the fascinating and fearless Glenn Greenwald.

01:01:04.740 In the meantime, we'll talk to you next time on the next Megyn Kelly show, which will be

01:01:08.700 released on Wednesday after the first presidential debate.

01:01:12.400 And we're going to have some thoughts.

01:01:14.520 You can find the Megyn Kelly show on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:01:18.240 If you like the show, please subscribe.

01:01:20.080 You can download the podcast, rate it and review it five stars, of course.

01:01:24.460 Uh, and then go and spread the word, send the Apple podcast link to others who might want

01:01:27.820 to subscribe, who you think will like it.

01:01:29.460 And even those who you think might hate, listen to it.

01:01:32.100 Uh, or if Apple podcast is not your thing, you can go to Spotify, Google, I heart tune in

01:01:35.980 or wherever you may listen to podcasts.

01:01:38.080 You can find us for free for free.

01:01:41.160 What a deal.

01:01:42.200 We appreciate you being with us.

01:01:43.680 Thanks for listening to Megyn Kelly show.

01:01:45.620 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:01:49.340 The Megyn Kelly show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.

01:01:57.000 Your business doesn't move in a straight line.

01:01:59.960 Some days bring growth.

01:02:01.480 Others bring challenges.

01:02:03.080 But what if you or a partner needs to step away?

01:02:05.980 When the unexpected happens, count on Canada Life's flexible life and health insurance to

01:02:11.220 help your business keep working, even when you can't.

01:02:13.820 Don't let life's challenges stand in the way of your success.

01:02:17.600 Protect what you've built today.

01:02:19.640 Visit canadalife.com slash business protection to learn more.

01:02:23.780 Canada Life.

01:02:24.860 Insurance.

01:02:25.800 Investments.

01:02:26.620 Advice.

The Megyn Kelly Show - September 28, 2020

Glenn Greenwald on Trump and the media, MSNBC, and Edward Snowden ｜ Ep. 1

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript