Glenn Greenwald on Trump and the media, MSNBC, and Edward Snowden ｜ Ep. 1
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 2 minutes
Words per minute
194.00499
Harmful content
Misogyny
18
sentences flagged
Hate speech
13
sentences flagged
Summary
In this episode of The Megyn Kelly Show, Megynkelian talks about why she created the show, why she s sick and tired of the news, and why she decided to take matters into her own hands.
Transcript
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Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest and provocative conversations.
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Hey everybody, I'm Megyn Kelly and welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.
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So glad you're here with me, so glad you're listening.
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We're doing audio for now, we may add some video at some point.
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You know, the audio is kind of more intimate just to start with.
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And I thought I'd just start by telling you why I'm here, right?
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And the reason really is I am deeply concerned.
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I'm concerned about what's happening to our country, to our media and to us.
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You know, the press of which I've been a part for many years now
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I feel like it has abandoned any semblance of objectivity.
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And just having the luxury of being just a consumer for the past couple of years,
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You know, I feel like the COVID pandemic really brought it home.
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Because like you, I was sitting at my house thinking,
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oh wow, you know, like, I really need to have honest information about this.
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You know, the truth is, I didn't trust Trump to give it to me straight.
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And I didn't trust the media to give it to me straight either.
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And I actually sent out a tweet saying something like that.
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And some of the sort of mainstream elite journalists who I know DMed me saying,
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Because most of the media today expresses fealty to one side or the other,
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And now it's fealty to the toxic religion of wokeness,
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you know, policing people's words and their thoughts.
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in which my only fealty will be to the audience and to the truth.
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You know, I'm sick and tired of the news today.
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And I hope to be a place that you can come for information that you trust, right?
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That you know I'm not in the bag for either side or for anybody.
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And a place in which opinions, even heterodox opinions,
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And that you guys are sophisticated enough and smart enough
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So we are not about the silencing of viewpoints here at this show.
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And we hope you'll stay along with us for the ride.
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This is the part of the show where I have to read an ad or two.
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And it's the reason you get to get the show for free.
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And it's the very first time I've ever done it.
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My executive producer, Steve Krakauer, is with me.
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And so, you know, we'll see how it goes, Steve.
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And now, without further ado, our very first guest here on The Megyn Kelly Show, Glenn
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You may or may not know him, but he is a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and a really interesting
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Like he was more aligned, I would say, with progressives.
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And then through a series of life events, started to realize maybe he wasn't where he
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He's been fearless in his reporting, and he will take on anybody on any charge.
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And I think you're going to find him and his discussion about the media in 2020 really
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Glenn Greenwald, thank you so much for being here.
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You first splashed onto the scene in my world when you broke one of the biggest stories of
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You were working for The Guardian, and you broke the story of the NSA spying scandal,
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the whole Edward Snowden, and are they listening to us?
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And it turned into, well, we're only collecting the metadata of people's phone calls.
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We're not actually listening to the phone calls.
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And so people, you know, maybe don't remember the whole thing.
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But you were the guy who broke that story for which Edward Snowden is basically still on
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And I just want to go back, because I wonder, when you get a scoop as big as that, and he's
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coming to you and sort of saying, this is what I'd like you to do, was it exciting?
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I mean, I had, prior to his coming to me, you know, he anonymously emailed me at the end
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of 2012, I had spent two or three years, or even a little longer, maybe, working as a
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journalist, columnist, blogger, concerned about the NSA, writing a lot about the NSA,
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And it was very difficult work, because it was so opaque.
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There was very little we knew about what was happening within this agency.
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And the little tidbits we were getting were making me very concerned as somebody very
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devoted to privacy rights and limited government, that probably the invasiveness was much greater
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So when he came to me as somebody who said, not only do I have the only top secret documents
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ever to leak from this agency, I have an enormous number of them, you know, hundreds of thousands,
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However, I knew on the one hand, it was going to be this unique journalistic opportunity,
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kind of like the story of a generation, be able to shine light on the most secretive
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agency within the world's most powerful government.
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But I also knew that precisely for that reason, that there had never been a leak like this.
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Probably going back to the Pentagon papers, but because it was from the NSA, this was even
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And because of my position in the media ecosystem, right, I was with The Guardian, but I was kind
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of like a calmness of The Guardian only for about eight months.
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It was a riskier position to be in, to do a story this sensitive and this threatening
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And then Snowden, you know, the first thing he wanted before he was really willing to do
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anything was for me to fly halfway across the world to Hong Kong, where he had gone in
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order to safely work with journalists, which had a lot of intrigue to it, had a lot of tension
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We didn't know what the Chinese government or the local Hong Kong authorities knew about
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And obviously, when you're getting hundreds of thousands of proxy documents from a military
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But also, you know, that's why I went into journalism in the first place is to do those
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He's with Putin now in Russia, but I'm sure would like to come back and is pushing for a
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And Trump actually just said he'll consider it.
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You know, what happened this month was the Ninth Circuit ruled that program to be illegal.
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I mean, Snowden was effectively justified or vindicated in some sense because the program
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was ruled illegal and his conduct was discussed favorably by the court.
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But, you know, I don't know if they're just all neocons or what, but the people who really are
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still upset with him, like my old pal Mark Thiessen of the Washington Post and AEI would
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say, you know, he endangered, he endangered people.
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He's not a whistleblower because he should have taken it to lawmakers.
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You know, he he hurt people who are helping the United States, our allies.
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And this all boiled down to us after 9-11 needing to see where the terrorists and who the
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And, you know, they looked at the metadata only.
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They didn't look at your private phone calls, which doesn't hurt anybody if they just see
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I mean, first of all, I think there's this very interesting split on the right that just
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reveals of people who kind of started off as 9-11 war on terror warriors and remained
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But there's a big part of the Republican Party, obviously led by Trump, right?
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When he ran in 2016, he ran in opposition to the war in Iraq and to like general notions
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Snowden's biggest advocates right now aren't just the ACLU, but Senator Rand Paul and Congressman
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People, Thomas Massey, who are saying that he deserves a pardon, that he's a hero.
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So I think there's this split on the right that recognizes that we allow the government
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I mean, one of the philosophies of right wing politics in the United States has always
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been we need to protect individual liberty from incursions by a powerful central government
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that can invade our lives in too extreme of a way.
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And having them even, let's set aside the debate about whether they're really listening
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to our calls, because there's a lot of evidence that they are.
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But even if they're only listening to, quote, just our metadata, think how much that reveals
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Like you're a woman and you're considering an abortion, you call an abortion clinic.
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You don't really need to know what you say on that call.
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You just need to know that you called that abortion clinic or you call a drug counseling
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hotline or a suicide hotline or an HIV specialist, or you're talking to someone who's not your
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Metadata is incredibly revealing to create a picture about who you are.
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Unless we're doing something that a court says justifies them being suspicious about us.
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That was never supposed to be the role of the government.
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So it's one of those kind of controversies, Megan, where it's very unique in that a lot of the
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support we got came from the right and then came from the left.
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But there was also a lot of the opposition came from the part of the right that you described,
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but then also part of the left that was angry that we were making President Obama look bad.
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It was one of the least partisan controversies that has existed in years.
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Whereas it's a lot of conservatives who care about individual rights and limited government
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Well, I think people can understand that there, in a way, is a sliding scale.
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You know, when you're within a year or two of a massive terrorist attack on domestic soil,
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I think most people are willing to shift the balance a bit on their civil liberties
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to letting the government have more power and do what it needs to do to stop another attack.
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But then, you know, the more time that passes, the less tolerant I think the American people
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will be because it's not necessarily the solution long term.
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And so, you know, I think now is a good time to have the debate about how we feel about this guy
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I think certainly Republicans are willing to have that debate now.
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I think the biggest objection will be what message does it send to others if he gets a pardon?
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I mean, the reality, though, you know, he has been punished, right?
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He was trying to transit through Russia on his way to Latin America.
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And they, you know, the Obama State Department invalidated his passport.
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It's a country with which he has no connection.
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He's been separated from his family for seven years from his own country.
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That's a pretty big price to pay, you know, seven years of exile.
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So even if you think that he should be punished, notwithstanding that he exposed illegal and unconstitutional acts
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on the part of the government, which seems like a weird thing to say about somebody who did,
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but even if you think he should be punished, it kind of has been.
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Because if Trump wants to pardon him, not that...
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I don't know if Trump even thinks about, you know, PR and how it gets covered in this day and age,
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but you'd need some PR cover for why it's just.
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And the time in exile is probably a decent one.
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You know, I look at that now just, you know, from the perspective of 2020,
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I mean, that is truly fearless journalism on your part.
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But to me, it's so funny, Glenn, because I think that's what most of the mainstream journalists think they're doing now.
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They think they're little mini Glenn Greenwalds, and that they're out there exposing the truth,
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speaking truth to power, you know, the Washington Post with democracy dies in darkness,
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which I always laugh at because I'm like, well, I don't remember you, you know, with a democracy dies in darkness
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when Barack Obama had his pen and his phone and was issuing these executive orders every other week.
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So what, I mean, what's your take on this sort of, you know, resistance journalism
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and adherence to a cause at all costs going on today?
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I really find it so repellent for so many reasons.
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You know, first of all, the Obama administration was probably the single most menacing administration
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Just, you know, as one example, they prosecuted more sources and whistleblowers under the Espionage Act,
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this 1917 statue enacted by Woodrow Wilson to criminalize dissent over the U.S. involvement in World War I,
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And very few people in the media, you know, where was the Washington Post chaining its motto
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There were some journalists saying, look, this is a huge threat to investigative journalism.
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What's happening, this kind of threat to our sources, as you know, your colleague, James Rosen,
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the Obama Justice Department under Eric Holder subpoenaed not just his phone records,
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but his parents in order to find out who his source was for a story.
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I couldn't leave Brazil for a year and a half, almost a year and a half during that senator reporting
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because the Justice Department was saying, if you leave Brazil, there's a good chance we're going to arrest you.
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Well, at least subpoena you, but we're probably going to arrest you.
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So that's number one, is there were all kinds of very grave and real threats to press freedom
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taking place during the Obama administration, and there was no hashtag resistance or media denunciations
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except in very small sectors of the media, which is why I don't take very seriously what they're saying now.
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Secondly, if you look at what they claim are the attacks on press freedom, it's usually things like Trump posted some insult,
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some infantile insult about like Chuck Todd and Wolf Blitzer or, you know, said something mean to Jim Acosta.
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You know, like I did reporting all last year in Brazil, and the government, the president himself,
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threatened repeatedly to imprison me, and they actually tried to indict me.
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Being insulted by Trump on Twitter is not an attack on press freedom.
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What does COVID-19 have to do with losing your home?
00:17:28.320
A lot of bad stuff has happened thanks to COVID-19.
00:17:32.380
One thing you're probably not worried about is losing your home.
00:17:35.060
But the problem is that the FBI just reported that since the virus struck, cybercrime, cybercrime, Steve, is up 75%.
00:17:45.740
So you're thinking, all right, well, then, like, I shouldn't put my password in,
00:17:49.860
I shouldn't put my credit card in when I order stuff online at the Gap or whatever.
00:17:53.960
It's worse than that because the legal title to your home is online now.
00:18:02.800
It's not like they can't get the bricks and mortar, but they can represent to others, Steve,
00:18:07.140
that they own what you think you own, and that pays benefits for them.
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You probably didn't even know it was there, but it is.
00:18:18.080
They forge your signature on a quick claim deed.
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And then they refile as the new owner of your home.
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They destroy you by taking out loans against your home.
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So they get loans thanks to, look at my big home.
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So you may not even know until you get the late payment or a foreclosure notice on your home.
00:18:47.100
Anyway, this can all be solved by home title lock.
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Your home, as you know, is your most valuable asset.
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The instant they detect tampering, they shut it down.
00:19:08.040
You register your address to see if you're already a victim.
00:19:12.260
Then you use code radio for 30 free days of protection.
00:19:24.160
First of all, there's a profit model to it, right?
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Like the New York Times was really struggling financially and became a really profitable
00:19:34.880
Just as an aside, let me tell you, at the end of Obama's second term, I was at the White
00:19:42.960
And, you know, they invite the journalists for one of those.
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And I saw Lawrence O'Donnell of MSNBC and I said, hey, how you doing?
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And he said, and I quote, I am on a sinking ship known as MSNBC.
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He, I mean, yeah, I have friends at MSNBC who were on the verge of losing their jobs because
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Obama was treated as this kind of like quiet savior figure, which isn't very exciting.
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You need to get people revved up and angry in order to get them to watch cable news.
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And so Trump was the savior by being able to turn him into this kind of like existential threat to the
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And so there is a real monetary and career incentive to wildly exaggerate the threat that
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It was it's become a huge profit model for media to pretend that they're kind of on the
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front lines of, you know, this unprecedented assault on democracy by this fascist dictator.
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Now they're essentially treating him almost like a like a as a Hitler figure.
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But I also think, you know, there's that cynical motive, which is we make more money
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getting people afraid, afraid and revved up with adrenaline.
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But I think that like one of the things that has happened, which I find really disturbing
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is that because journalists spend so much of their time on social media now, there's so
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Nuance gets you canceled on social media or at least ignored.
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What gets you attention on social media, what gets you applause from your colleagues is
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And I think that when you stay on social media for long enough time, as they do, they start
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it's kind of like a one of the most potent weapons of groupthink ever invented.
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So if you keep hearing enough times that Trump is Hitler, even though there's a cynical motive
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to say it, which is that people will watch your show or donate to your blog or follow
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I think there's also like almost a sincere it's like a collective mania that takes place
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that they keep feeding on one another and making themselves increasingly more unhinged.
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Well, and then there's no there's no accountability.
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They get they get financially rewarded for going after him nonstop, no matter how small
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I mean, Russiagate is the best example of that.
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You know, like look at Rachel Maddow, what she did during Russiagate.
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She went on every night and like talk about the Steele dossier as though it were real,
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It was obvious in the beginning it was a fraud, but it became increasingly obvious.
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And she continued to push it, which is, you know, like essentially a document that says
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this foreign power has taken over and infiltrated American institutions.
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Not only that, every single completely unhinged conspiracy theory that can like really generate
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hysteria among the population about a nuclear power in Moscow, she promoted.
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I mean, she went on one night practically in tears, claimed that Russia had seized control
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of the heating system of the United States at a time when it was like negative 40 degrees
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And she was like, what would you and your family do if the Kremlin shut off the heat when
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You know, just the kind of it's almost like Alex Jones or QAnon level conspiracies.
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But because it's serving an agenda that the mainstream press has decided is just exactly
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Not only is there no accountability, there's just lots of benefits.
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She's become, you know, her ratings just went through the roof the more she fed her audience
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I mean, I used to be at nine on Fox and she was at nine on MSNBC and we crushed her all
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But we did have an adherence to fact on the show, good or bad for Republicans, good or
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I just see some clips from them is just freewheeling.
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And and if you're a reporter or a fact witness who has a different story to tell, you get
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And speaking of Lawrence O'Donnell, he tweeted out not long ago that anyone defending Trump
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and I think it was either on Russiagate or Ukraine, anyone defending Trump is a liar and
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I mean, or, you know, you're either a liar and or a racist.
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I mean, obviously, I have experience personally because I used to be really good friends with
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Rachel Maddow before she got on MSNBC show when she was on Air America.
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We used to go on all the time, used to bash the Democrats from the left about how they
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And same with Chris Hayes, who's been a longtime friend of mine who has a theater cox show on
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And I used to go on their both of their shows all the time, all the time, you know, to kind
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of feed the audience whatever they felt like they wanted to have them fed.
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And then once I became a critic of Russiagate, it just, I basically got banned from the network,
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especially because I became a critic of their coverage of it.
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And I find that so interesting because I know, like, I, you know, I didn't, I'd never watched
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like any cable show constantly, but like, I would see your show and I know that you would
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love one of the things you like best, probably because of your lawyer background, probably
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because your personality is you would like to invite people on your show who were, had an
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opinion different than yours so that you could kick the tires on the underlying rationale.
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Like, it's so boring to just have people on constantly affirming your own assumptions
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They completely backballed anyone who was a critic.
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Like I have producers who tried to book me and they get told, no, he's on the no book list.
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And that's not even for, that's for your opinion that they covered Russiagate wrong,
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And like, and you know, the thing is there were other journalists dissenting on Russiagate,
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you know, with a lot of accomplishments and credentials.
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Like for example, Matt Taibbi, who is a longtime popular journalist from Rolling Stone, who did
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He was beloved by liberals on the left, but he lived in Russia for, I think, a decade
00:26:34.920
or so, speaks the language and understood from the start that this was all hysteria about
00:26:40.020
Putin and Moscow and the Kremlin and said so when he got banned.
00:26:43.360
I don't think he's been on MSNBC in about five years either.
00:26:48.440
Not just that there's this prevailing orthodoxy, but that they will never allow anyone to question
00:26:55.260
or challenge them exactly because what Lawrence O'Donnell said, if you at all are perceived
00:26:58.960
as defending Trump, even if you don't like Trump ideologically or personally, but if
00:27:03.020
you say anything that pushes back against whatever anti-Trump narrative has been concocted,
00:27:08.060
you're a liar and a racist and therefore not welcoming good company.
0.56
00:27:10.880
Because not only do they have to say your point of view is wrong, i.e.
00:27:14.100
you're a liar, it's you are a bad person, which the left just does all the time.
00:27:18.320
You have to be completely discredited as a human.
00:27:37.400
I think the last time I was invited to CNN was earlier this year when I was indicted by
00:27:41.740
the Bolsonaro government for the reporting I was doing on Brian Stelter's show and I
00:27:47.580
And I'm not banned from there, but they very rarely have.
00:27:55.560
When's the last time you heard somebody on there defending President Trump or questioning
00:28:01.720
CNN has reached out to me to have me on and I've said no every time.
00:28:04.720
But the times they reach out to me, they want me to rip on Trump.
00:28:08.860
I mean, it's like, oh, Trump did something to a woman.
00:28:13.740
I have no desire to to play the role they want me to play.
00:28:16.680
It's like, look, if Trump said something controversially, you can talk about it.
00:28:20.840
But there's a reason they came to somebody like me.
00:28:23.220
And that's when they you know, they think I'm going to do what they need the puppet to
00:28:28.740
They want you to be their little dancing conservative bear who, you know, like amuses
1.00
00:28:39.200
So now they fear you because you're you founded The Intercept in 2013, which is amazing.
00:28:46.360
It's so interesting to read all of your reporters, too.
00:28:51.240
I mean, you're you're in you're a place where I I also feel that I am now, you know,
00:28:57.660
I'm outside of the conservative and the and the traditional media, which I like.
00:29:02.060
But you are you've been there for a while and you've been sort of poking and prodding
00:29:05.700
And I thought you had a really interesting point earlier this week.
00:29:08.140
It was a column I read about how this is why they're also turning on Joe Rogan, because
00:29:17.280
You know, he he's not woke, but on most things, he's more progressive, but they can't stand
00:29:24.380
And I think you tell me, but I think it's because he's not of them.
00:29:30.080
And he's extremely powerful and successful now.
00:29:34.400
The resentment really came to the fore when there was a suggestion by one of Rogan's guests
00:29:38.700
that Rogan host a debate, a presidential debate, which is kind of like, as you know,
00:29:44.300
the most prestigious thing in media that you can do in a presidential election year.
00:29:48.900
And Trump was excited by it, probably taunting Biden, knowing he would never do it, saying
00:29:55.920
And the media acted like, you know, they had kind of asked just some like random homeless
00:30:03.600
person to come into their glittery realm and and and vandalize it with their their filth.
00:30:09.800
And, you know, Rogan has a way bigger audience than any of them have.
00:30:14.140
Um, and obviously there's a lot of resentment, there's a lot of professional jealousy, but
00:30:20.140
I really think what it is more than anything is kind of like this prioritization of culture
00:30:27.560
I think like one of the things that a lot of people on the right don't fully understand
00:30:30.680
is that establishment liberals, you know, like kind of the dominoing of the Democratic
00:30:36.300
Party, they don't actually care about politics.
00:30:40.080
They serve the interest of Silicon Valley and Wall Street and K Street.
00:30:48.320
Most of them themselves are extremely rich and wealthy families.
00:30:51.500
Um, they they use some rhetoric that's populist in nature, but populism exists far more on the
00:30:56.920
right than it does on the establishment of the Democratic Party.
00:31:08.420
Um, what they care about is culture, dominating the culture.
00:31:11.560
And the reason they look at Joe Rogan and see an enemy, even though if you go down the
00:31:16.800
list, he's pro-choice, he's pro-gay rights, he believes in social spending, he's anti-war.
00:31:29.600
When, because they don't care about politics, they care about culture.
00:31:31.860
And Rogan is not, he doesn't sound like them, right?
00:31:44.500
So to them, he's like an interloper culturally.
00:31:47.980
And that's what they care about more than politics.
00:31:50.020
And that's why I think the, like the contempt for Rogan among liberals in the media, which
00:31:58.720
So what I did think it was interesting, just one more minute on him, that he signed his
00:32:03.140
deal with Spotify and, and, you know, made a bunch of money off of it, but already there's
00:32:08.520
Like he had on Abigail Schreier who wrote, so easy for me to say, irreversible damage, which
00:32:14.920
takes a hard look at transgender teens and why it seems to be increasing in frequency.
00:32:24.660
And I, I read the book and now there's a protest over there.
00:32:31.760
And Spotify has reportedly had 10 meetings, not reportedly the CEO confessed.
00:32:38.060
And it made me wonder, can Joe Rogan last at Spotify?
00:32:47.300
You know, first of all, I look at it kind of through the prism a lot of the primary success
00:32:54.340
of a social movement in my lifetime that affected my life most, which is the gay rights movement,
00:32:58.380
you know, like of age as a gay teenager in the eighties with the moral majority and the
00:33:03.640
Reagan era, no one thought anything like gay marriage was even remotely possible that
00:33:11.380
And one of the reasons it's happened is because so many people who wanted this profound social
00:33:18.360
Like said, Hey, like you have these ideas about who I am, what my life is like, that aren't
00:33:25.320
I understand that you were raised to think differently.
00:33:27.480
You have religious convictions that lead you to a different place.
00:33:30.460
Let's have a dialogue so that you can actually see the reality of our humanity.
00:33:34.640
It wasn't this like coercive demand that everybody swallowed this truth.
00:33:39.040
I'm not saying there were no elements of the gay rights movement that did that, but by
0.99
00:33:41.620
and large, it was successful because it was persuasive.
00:33:46.280
And now like around these, this trans issue, there's like almost this kind of demand that
00:33:51.260
nobody asked any questions about these really profound changes that are being demanded about
00:33:57.020
how we think about gender, how we think about sex, how we think about the choices of children
00:34:05.000
You know, I, I have this media outlet in that's based in New York.
00:34:08.340
So I go a lot to New York and I, a lot of my colleagues are, you know, journalists who
00:34:12.600
send their kids to very liberal private schools in Brooklyn and Manhattan.
00:34:16.100
And a lot of their, their teenage children, their, a lot of their teenage children have
00:34:23.060
So like 15 year old trans boys who have already had their breasts removed at the age of 15
0.98
00:34:29.940
or, you know, the other way of trans women who have had genital reassignment, sexual reassignment
00:34:36.340
surgery involved in their genitals that are permanent changes that they're making at the age
0.71
00:34:40.360
And if you talk to these journalists, they'll tell you at dinner over a glass of wine that
00:34:45.080
they're very disturbed by the question that we don't really have a lot of science about,
00:34:50.380
about whether kids are too young to be making these decisions about whether people are being
00:34:55.360
misdiagnosed with gender dysphoria who actually have other problems in the culture.
00:34:58.760
It's encouraging them to think that they're trans when they're like, people have those
1.00
00:35:02.320
questions, people in the privacy of their home ask the questions that Joe Rogan asked,
00:35:06.180
but those journalists would never, ever write about it or publicly say it because they're
00:35:12.100
too scared to, they're too beholden to liberal orthodoxy and Joe Rogan's not.
00:35:17.540
And that's why they hate him because they can't control him.
00:35:25.080
I'm, I've always been somebody who will go there.
00:35:27.340
You know, my old executive producer at the Kelly file used to say, MK, you like to go to
00:35:34.340
I, I like you believe there's no harm in having tough discussions and, you know, poking sort
00:35:43.060
And I also feel it's our job to be antagonistic towards the subjects and the, and the people
00:35:48.060
we cover and to be skeptical that we get paid to be skeptical and suddenly on certain issues
00:35:52.660
is one of the things that's driving me nuts about covering trans issues or covering black
00:35:56.880
lives matter is you're not allowed to be skeptical.
00:35:59.660
If you are skeptical, there's something wrong with you.
00:36:02.120
You know, you're anti black people or you're anti LGBT, you know, trans people that just
00:36:08.680
And it's alienating to people who would like to be an ally, right.
00:36:13.260
But like to help in ways that are reasonable and that we can get on board with, you know,
00:36:16.900
you don't, you don't want to support racism, but you also don't support somebody going over
00:36:20.480
to somebody's restaurant table in the middle of the evening and saying, you raise your fist
00:36:24.140
right now and say BLM or else that it's baloney.
00:36:30.860
If it doesn't challenge and question orthodoxies, if all it's doing is kind of submitting to
00:36:37.320
them and reciting them and echoing them, um, you know, it's a very kind of authoritarian
00:36:43.040
approach to say, you can't actually question things.
00:36:47.980
And if you question things, um, we're going to declare you off limits.
00:36:53.860
And I go back to, you know, again, like the gay rights movement.
00:36:56.740
I remember, you know, like when I was 25 and 30, people would say, you know, there's something
00:37:03.120
Like how do two men or two women end up married or how do they have sex?
0.59
00:37:08.740
And like, you know, you could like, you could easily, if you wanted to just kind of scorn
00:37:12.940
them and say, you're a bigot, you're, you know, hateful and, and, or you could say, God,
00:37:17.940
I'm so happy for the opportunity that you want to have that discussion.
00:37:21.320
Let's like talk about that and engage in that kind of debate.
00:37:25.240
And I think one of the things that has happened is exactly as you suggest, which is that the
00:37:30.100
kind of liberal left tactic to win debates is to bar them from happening.
00:37:37.660
Um, and it's very alienating to people who are prospective allies and, you know, it can
00:37:43.680
work in the short term, but I do think eventually it's going to drive a lot of people away because
00:37:48.440
who wants to be part of a subculture or an ideology that says that you're required and
00:37:54.360
forced upon pain of being condemned as a bad human to accept orthodoxies and pieties that
00:37:59.880
don't actually even understand, let alone get agree with.
00:38:05.460
So we're going to be doing some features on the show for you all, and we're going to call
00:38:10.980
Uh, it's just a moment that happened in my life that I thought might be worth sharing.
00:38:15.300
Uh, for the first time last week, I saw four of my best friends who I hadn't seen in six
00:38:27.620
We were last together on a ski vacation out in Montana in March.
00:38:33.820
And, you know, we didn't even know that there was going to be a quarantine and we're all
00:38:39.340
So we went six months, like most of us without seeing each other.
00:38:42.520
We had zoom calls, you know, we actually played, um, flip cup, you know, flip cup one
00:38:50.840
Um, and this is the first time at least four of our seven woman posse got together.
1.00
00:38:56.520
And, uh, I have to tell you, you know, you have to eat outside here in New York, like
00:39:01.720
And, uh, as I walked up the sidewalk and saw them sitting there, cause I was last to arrive.
00:39:08.240
They looked amazing that it was a beautiful night.
00:39:14.700
We had a couple of drinks and it was, it was a feeling of freedom.
00:39:19.940
You know, it was, it was happiness and just friendship, you know, seeing your friends face
00:39:25.240
to face and you don't have to wear the mask at the table.
00:39:27.420
Um, and it turns out one, one is getting engaged.
00:39:32.520
So it was just, I'm, I was launching this podcast.
00:39:35.960
It was just, sometimes it's not like these huge events in your life that matter.
00:39:46.980
So one other thing that I wanted to tell you is that we're going to be answering your questions
00:39:50.840
So if you have anything that you want to ask, uh, fire away, it can be personal.
00:39:56.820
It can be about the show, um, whatever's on your mind.
00:39:59.440
So the email to reach me is questions, plural at devilmaycaremedia.com questions at devilmaycaremedia.com.
00:40:09.240
And, um, we'll get back to you on the show with our favorites and, you know, the ones that
00:40:14.300
stand out to us and, you know, hopefully we can keep it back and forth going.
00:40:17.260
Even if it's comments on the show and you want to follow up, maybe I can run down some
00:40:22.520
Personally, the one, probably the greatest gift, the greatest positive thing to come
00:40:29.260
out of my, you know, very negative ending at NBC was a freedom, you know, a liberation
00:40:35.540
to just, once you've been called awful things by every publication in the country, you know,
00:40:43.780
You know, it's like, so I'm just going to talk honestly about these subjects and what
00:40:48.260
You're going to say something bad about me yet.
00:40:58.280
I think one of the really interesting things is that if you look at the media ecosystem,
00:41:05.540
you know, the kind of like economic structure of it, the outlets where you're forced to recite
00:41:10.600
these orthodoxies upon pain of being fired are doing very poorly.
00:41:14.300
If you look at who's thriving independently, it is people like Joe Rogan.
00:41:19.440
You know, like Andrew Sullivan, for example, got forced out of his column at New York Magazine
00:41:23.840
because a lot of the millennials at New York Magazine thought he was a white supremacist,
00:41:27.580
think that he's a racist, think that he can't, doesn't deserve to be in decent company.
00:41:33.260
And he went on Substack and his audience followed him.
00:41:36.480
And I think he tripled or quadrupled his income.
00:41:40.140
Same thing with Matt Taibbi, who kind of got forced out of Rolling Stone and that was making
00:41:44.380
way more money than he was ever making at Rolling Stone.
00:41:47.600
The podcasts that are doing well are the ones who refuse to be captive to this.
00:41:54.640
So there's a hunger for people to say, I'm kind of free from it.
00:41:59.740
Exactly as you said, what else can they do to you?
00:42:02.860
I kind of wonder just why we're, I wonder the like, why we're on that topic.
00:42:05.900
Like, do you, because the way like that it all kind of played out was, you know,
00:42:15.020
He's Brazilian as we were trying to do this show.
00:42:16.920
And I was saying like, she was kind of like just asking why it is that it always has to
00:42:23.560
Like, is there a way that you could do something like that non-maliciously?
00:42:26.780
Like you, you know, adore a black celebrity, a black athlete, a black actor.
00:42:36.740
I do wonder, like, do you regret kind of apologizing for it?
00:42:41.740
Or do you feel like your apology was justified because for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly,
00:42:49.200
people were hurt by the comments and you feel like an apology is justified if people are hurt?
00:42:58.300
I think I'm not I'm not sorry that I said sorry, because I do think some people, especially
00:43:05.040
people who have just been reading the media interpretation of what I said, which was they
00:43:08.840
presented it as though I was defending minstrel show blackface and wanted it to return to the
00:43:13.340
airwaves immediately, you know, which wasn't anywhere close to the truth.
00:43:17.300
I was just trying to start a discussion because I had noticed when I was a kid.
00:43:21.040
And as it turns out, very recently, prior to my remarks, people were wearing blackface.
00:43:26.660
This this, you know, this whether it was as an homage or otherwise, they were wearing
00:43:31.460
And as it turns out, NBC itself was putting out at least five different shows as recently
00:43:36.200
as a couple of years before my discussion about it with characters in blackface.
00:43:40.360
So I think it was a good discussion to try to start.
00:43:44.000
So I don't if people misunderstood the point I was trying to make, I think it's I've usually
00:43:48.680
been quick to apologize as opposed to just, you know, stand in my my principle and say,
00:43:55.580
However, I also think I made the mistake of believing that most of my critics were coming
00:44:02.800
And what I've seen since then is that wasn't true.
00:44:07.540
They were on the war path from you from the beginning.
00:44:09.520
They saw you as somebody who didn't who shouldn't have been there.
00:44:13.940
But I mean, look at the media, you know, look at even just a couple of weeks ago, Joy
00:44:19.200
Now, she, unlike yours truly, has actually worn blackface and she was defending it by
0.94
00:44:25.560
saying, well, it wasn't really blackface because I meant it as an homage.
00:44:30.160
Well, Glenn, that's exactly what I was trying to ask.
00:44:42.440
So I sent out a tweet saying, gee, I, you know, she should be careful because even asking
00:44:47.160
whether intent matters can get you on The New York Times and The Washington Post and
00:44:52.280
it can get you on Nightly News on NBC and World News Tonight on ABC and GMA, which ran
00:44:57.080
I just wonder whether GMA and World News Tonight are going to cover their own host, either
00:45:02.020
Jimmy Kimmel, who were it repeatedly or Joy Behar.
00:45:08.660
I think I think that was a rhetorical question from the start.
00:45:12.580
My only point is that there was no good faith by the media outlets covering it and by the
00:45:17.120
vast majority of critics who just wanted, you know, a scalp.
00:45:20.260
I think people see that, you know, you know, media, the media loves to whine very sanctimoniously
00:45:32.240
They've been taught to look at media outlets as fake news.
00:45:35.640
People have lost trust and faith in authoritative media outlets.
00:45:46.300
It's always they're the unjust victims of a defamation campaign.
00:45:49.860
And I think that, you know, when they do something like this year, I think the most
00:45:53.060
degree just example was they were shaming everybody who stepped out of their house for to go to
00:45:58.820
church, to have a funeral, to do a political rally that had a cause that they didn't agree
00:46:04.420
They were denounced as being selfish, as killing grandma.
00:46:07.060
And then suddenly these Black Lives Matter protests broke out all over the country where
00:46:11.000
tens of thousands of people were packed in extremely dense crowds, one on top of the
00:46:15.200
They were at exactly the moment where the pandemic was at its peak and everybody in the media
00:46:19.740
not only was afraid to condemn it or denounce it or shame it the way they had been doing
00:46:23.420
for other gatherings that they didn't like, but they were praising it, saying that it's
00:46:28.960
And I think people see the fraudulent nature of that.
00:46:32.760
You know, they don't believe, unlike the media, that the virus knows whether you're there to support
00:46:39.280
Trump or, to say, BLM, or for that matter, to mourn Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
00:46:44.240
They know the virus does not discriminate in that manner.
00:46:49.420
Epidemiologically, the virus does not enter your body if it decides that you're supporting
00:46:53.640
a right-wing cause as opposed to a left-wing cause.
00:46:55.860
No, honestly, it was right around the time all those protests and I was in the grocery store
00:46:59.540
and I had headphones on and I had sunglasses on.
00:47:03.760
And so I kind of had the feel that my mask was still on me and it wasn't.
00:47:07.200
I had forgotten it in my pocket and for a second there, I was like, oh my God, I don't have
00:47:12.640
And, you know, I had a couple of looks and I was like, oh, Black Lives Matter.
00:47:23.000
Just there's no, all the limits are abolished instantly.
00:47:27.800
So I got to ask you before I let go, we got to talk about the election.
00:47:30.940
I'm dying to know, because I know you're not, you're not big on voting and I'm just going
00:47:35.300
to guess you're not going to support, I mean, Trump's done some things you like, but like,
00:47:43.700
If you were going to vote, who would you support?
00:47:46.560
I mean, I, I end up not voting just for the standard journalistic reason.
00:47:51.400
It's like one of the few traditional journalism precepts that I end up believing in that if
00:47:55.580
you do vote, you kind of even psychologically attach yourself to a candidate in a way that can
00:48:00.760
affect your independence, I prefer not to, you know, be a supporter of anyone because I want
00:48:07.120
to remain skeptical and adversarial to anyone who wields power.
00:48:11.660
And I also think there's something a little pompous about like announcing my vote, like
00:48:15.460
I'm endorsing somebody or encouraging somebody to vote.
00:48:18.720
I prefer to just give people information that they can use to make their own decisions about
00:48:24.120
But what I absolutely do reject is the prevailing liberal discourse that looks at Trump as some
00:48:29.120
sort of grave threat to the Republic as some kind of, you know, I think Trump is much
00:48:33.780
more of a continuation of the American political tradition than he is a departure or aberration
00:48:38.000
from it, except, you know, in these kind of like rhetorical and stylistic ways where
00:48:45.440
So I don't accept this, you know, sort of melodramatic proclamation that this is the
00:48:51.080
gravest and most important election in the history of the United States or democracy is
00:48:55.480
Um, you know, I think that each candidate is better in some ways and in worse than others.
00:49:01.780
Do you, the thing about Biden that everybody talks about is whether he's all there.
00:49:07.220
You know, I mean, I, I feel like as a matter of factual reporting, you cannot deny that he,
00:49:20.620
Um, there was a, there was, there was an exchange, like, it was just a couple of weeks ago that
00:49:29.360
Because if you could take care, if you were a quartermaster, you can sure and help take care
00:49:35.280
of running a, you know, department store, uh, thing, you know, where, and the second floor
00:49:41.600
of the ladies department or whatever, you know what I mean?
00:49:43.340
What, what, I mean, it's honestly sad, you know, and this is so interesting, Megan, because
00:49:52.680
as you probably recall, the primary, um, in the democratic party came down to Biden and
00:49:59.320
And so those of us in the media who started when Biden was one of the two only last standing
00:50:05.680
choices were raising this issue of cognitive decline.
00:50:08.900
And a lot of the people who were kind of the guardians of the democratic party were saying
00:50:12.160
this is such a low life, you know, um, below the belt tactic to raise this.
00:50:17.920
And then I went back and I looked and what I saw was that through all of 2018 and 2019,
00:50:22.580
the people who were most disseminating this narrative about Biden were the democratic
00:50:29.160
They were petrified that he was way in the lead, that he was by far the biggest, uh, most
00:50:35.160
And they didn't believe that he had the capacity to endure the grueling rigors of an election.
00:50:40.220
And you can find on Morning Joe and on every MSNBC show and CNN show democratic, you know,
00:50:46.460
operatives, strategists, consultants saying, I don't think Biden has the mental capacity
00:50:54.060
It was Cory Booker and Julian Castro in the debate who like essentially mocked him for
00:50:57.600
forgetting, forgetting what he had said just like moments earlier.
00:51:01.040
They're the ones who raised those issues because they were petrified that Biden was going to
00:51:05.100
become a nominee and be so obviously incapable.
00:51:08.500
What saved him is the COVID pandemic, like that he gets to just stay in his basement and
00:51:12.980
everyone kind of understands that's the best thing that ever happened to him.
00:51:18.700
Like we all recognize it in our elderly relatives and people that it's sad to see.
00:51:24.340
It's one thing if it's your elderly relative, like all my mom has to do is like send out
0.99
00:51:29.820
But Joe Biden's going to have access to the nuclear codes and like decisions about whether
00:51:35.920
Like the thing is, what's what's really hilarious is if you watch how MSNBC hosts interview him,
00:51:42.780
because like that's the only place that they'll basically go at this point.
00:51:46.680
She talked to him in the most like patronizing voice.
00:51:49.320
You know that like soft, sweet voice that you use for like elderly grandparents who are
00:52:01.640
Like everyone knows it, but we're all supposed to just like pretend it's not happening.
00:52:05.520
Well, to your point earlier, she's openly declared that she's not going to vote for
00:52:09.920
So talk about I don't know whether this is a straight news journalist or, you know, she's
00:52:15.460
But, you know, I don't think a journalist should be declaring who they're voting for if
00:52:20.180
And, you know, she's sort of shown her cards in a way that was pretty surprising to me when
00:52:24.960
But let me ask you this, because speaking of the media and Biden, you guys are the ones
00:52:30.380
your reporter, Ryan Grimm, is the one who broke the Tara Reade story as Joe Biden's accuser
00:52:36.160
that he was sort of following her Twitter and he repeated some of the things she said
00:52:41.360
And then she went on, was it Katie Herzog's show?
00:52:51.560
So I feel like the media has done its level best to run cover for him on the Tara Reade
00:52:58.220
story, whether you believe Tara Reade or you don't.
00:53:01.000
The way they've treated those allegations versus the way they treated the allegations against
00:53:05.140
Trump and against Brett Kavanaugh is starkly different.
00:53:11.480
Like what happened was Ryan got wind of this and we didn't want to get behind it as a news
00:53:18.200
story saying, here's an accuser because we couldn't tell whether or not it was true.
00:53:23.100
And we didn't want to give our journalistic imprimatur to these allegations without any
00:53:28.040
evidence about whether that's truth that it's journalistically wrong to do, notwithstanding
00:53:35.260
So what Ryan decided to do instead was to report it from the hypocrisy angle that she
00:53:39.700
had gone, Tara Reade did, to Time's Up, that Hollywood-based advocacy group for sexual assault
1.00
00:53:51.400
And of course, they didn't want to do it because they want Biden to win.
00:53:53.620
So they concocted this bullshit explanation of excuse about why they weren't going to represent
00:54:00.140
her, which is, oh, we're a 501c3 group and we can't get involved in elections.
0.91
00:54:04.600
But all you're not allowed to do if you're a 501c3 group is advocate for a candidate explicitly.
00:54:09.900
It was such an obvious pretext to avoid doing it.
00:54:14.440
So my issue always was, it was never, I never, it was never, I believe Tara, sorry, go ahead.
00:54:21.560
I was going to say the irony of that is that, so in their, in their purported attempt to
00:54:25.280
not take a side, to not, you know, back one candidate or the other, is of course they were
00:54:29.160
just running cover for Biden because it turns out Anita Dunn, who's running PR for him, is
0.81
00:54:37.240
Her firm is, you know, senior counsel to or advisor to Time's Up.
00:54:41.460
And which, you know, I'm sure Tara Reade had no idea of when she got rejected.
1.00
00:54:45.640
And she, Anita Dunn was also the primary public relations advisor for Harvey Weinstein.
00:54:52.720
So the whole edifice is based on like such a weaponization of this issue for cynical and
00:55:01.320
And that was always my issue was not, I believe Tara Reade, because how can I believe Tara Reade,
00:55:06.760
She has claims that she made about what happened in a hallway in the Senate 20 years ago.
00:55:12.560
I have no rational basis for adjudicating who I believe or who I don't believe.
00:55:17.200
What I found so objectionable was that the standards that have been promulgated under
00:55:21.960
the phrase, believe women, that got applied to why we should all believe Christine Blasey
00:55:26.940
Ford, even though there was just as little corroborating evidence for her allegations, and
00:55:34.300
You have to have consistent standards for how this is treated.
00:55:37.160
Otherwise, what you're going to do is you're going to make everybody cease to take allegations
00:55:41.420
of sexual harassment seriously if you just start weaponizing it in this flagrantly cynical
00:55:50.920
Tara Reade has more evidence on her side than Christine Blasey Ford had.
0.62
00:55:56.160
By any standard, Christine Blasey Ford did not have a witness to whom she recounted this
00:56:09.260
She's got a witness, a very credible, professional family woman who's from the Southeast, who I
00:56:15.820
spoke with at length and so have the other journalists looking into this, who remembers
00:56:20.340
And she's got a neighbor, she told two years after that.
00:56:22.580
And she's got a third person, she told shortly after that.
00:56:27.240
Her mother calling into Larry King saying her daughter's been harassed.
00:56:29.680
Now, that could have been anything, so that's not as persuasive.
00:56:34.120
And they're like, you know, that's not that interesting.
00:56:37.400
But could we talk about Brett Kavanaugh's gang rape again?
00:56:42.620
I mean, they, like the media during the Brett Kavanaugh thing, not only promoted Christine
00:56:50.360
They promoted Michael Avenatti's thing with Julie Swetnick.
00:56:54.740
Rachel Maddow, I found the video during the Tara Reade controversy, was so exciting.
00:56:59.680
She was excited to announce that she had gotten Michael Avenatti an exclusive interview for
00:57:04.200
him to talk about Julie Swetnick's gang rape charges and put that on the air.
00:57:09.680
And, you know, I think the other thing I think it gets back to, though, of course, there's
00:57:13.860
like the partisan angle, which is people wanted to believe Christine Blasey Ford because they
00:57:17.780
wanted to stop Brett Kavanaugh from getting appointed to the court and discredit Tara Reade
00:57:24.200
But there's also that same cultural angle that we talked about with Joe Rogan, which is
00:57:28.020
look at Tara Reade and look at Christine Blasey Ford.
00:57:30.280
Christine Blasey Ford is this well-groomed, upper-middle-class woman with a PhD.
1.00
00:57:35.880
She's, like, in the, like, exactly the kind of cultural milieu that coastal liberals love
0.76
00:57:43.940
Whereas Tara Reade is more similar to, like, the Bill Clinton accusers, like Paula Jones and
0.93
00:57:51.020
And those kind of people who, you know, as James Carville famously said, drag a $10 bill
00:57:56.120
through a trailer park and you can pretty much find anything.
00:57:59.000
So I think a lot of it is that cultural bias that comes back again, that what matters most
00:58:06.980
Or are you this kind of, like, icky working-class person who exudes middle-of-the-country vibes?
0.71
00:58:12.820
And that determines so much of how you're evaluated as a human being by our media culture.
00:58:18.680
Well, boy, did they miss Judge Tara because she, up until now, was a pretty committed progressive
0.85
00:58:23.920
and, you know, clearly has rethought that commitment in the wake of what has been done
00:58:29.380
But it's up to the audience to figure out whether she's being truthful or not.
00:58:32.660
If you want to see, I did a lengthy interview with her, you can go check it out on YouTube.
00:58:39.000
We have a disgusting media that's incredibly broken.
00:58:45.660
I mean, I think, you know, one of the things we tried to do in 2013 when we created The
00:58:51.360
Intercept was to kind of create a media outlet that could be trusted across the political
00:58:55.720
spectrum, that even if we had political ideologies, we would be open about them, but we would do
00:59:02.800
And to me, I think that has to be the, and I'm not saying we fulfilled that as much as I
00:59:07.960
would have liked, I think we still have work to do, but I still think that's the model.
00:59:11.460
And I think there is a really underappreciated craving in the public for journalists who can
00:59:20.280
be trusted that way, who can report on things in a way that will contradict or undermine what
00:59:28.040
their political ideology might be without trying to deceive and manipulate them.
00:59:33.900
And I think the internet enables independent media to thrive.
00:59:38.280
I mean, again, you look at Joe Rogan's platform, like we all ignore it in the media, in the
00:59:42.680
mainstream media, but he's talking to 15 million people and not just 15 million people, but like
00:59:47.360
15 million people who aren't committed partisans, who can go one way or the other, which is a lot
00:59:52.060
more valuable than an audience of 5 million who are squirrely in one camp or the other.
00:59:56.560
Um, so I think that there's a lot of kind of undercurrents that this dissatisfaction with
01:00:01.700
the media is giving rise to, um, this independent ecosystem that can reach a lot of people.
01:00:09.200
And obviously like that dynamic that you're talking about is when I feel myself, which
01:00:13.020
is a lot of times, like when I feel myself getting ejected from, you know, or expelled from
01:00:20.560
decent mainstream precincts, it's so liberating, right?
01:00:24.960
It's so emboldening if you like wake up the next day and you're not like homeless and you
01:00:32.120
Now I can go speak really freely, you know, as you described.
01:00:36.000
Um, and I think that the more people they alienate that way, the more people they turn against
01:00:40.360
them, which is always what these kinds of insular authoritarian cultures do, the more people
0.81
01:00:45.600
they're going to kind of create their own adversaries, their own enemies.
01:00:48.420
And I think that is where I find my optimism is this kind of like counter backlash that
01:00:53.660
they're creating just through their own repellent behavior.
01:01:00.580
And our thanks to the fascinating and fearless Glenn Greenwald.
01:01:04.740
In the meantime, we'll talk to you next time on the next Megyn Kelly show, which will be
01:01:08.700
released on Wednesday after the first presidential debate.
01:01:14.520
You can find the Megyn Kelly show on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:01:20.080
You can download the podcast, rate it and review it five stars, of course.
01:01:24.460
Uh, and then go and spread the word, send the Apple podcast link to others who might want
01:01:29.460
And even those who you think might hate, listen to it.
01:01:32.100
Uh, or if Apple podcast is not your thing, you can go to Spotify, Google, I heart tune in
01:01:49.340
The Megyn Kelly show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.
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