The Megyn Kelly Show - Golden State Killer, Crypto Convict, Genetic Genealogy - Megyn's ＂True Crime＂ Mega-Episode

00:00:00.400 All right, full-time thoughts. Craig, who stood out?

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00:00:11.300 Chocolate creme brulee had the richest finishes.

00:00:13.680 Canadian fireworks really showed up big too.

00:00:15.700 And Mexico's caramel churro ice cap.

00:00:18.080 Gave me chills.

00:00:19.200 We are, of course, talking about Tim's taste of the globe lineup.

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00:00:30.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:41.980 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and today's true crime mega

00:00:47.140 episode. We have a great one for you, beginning with our original deep dive on genetic genealogy

00:00:53.040 from years ago with the expert on this subject, CeCe Moore. Then our look into the Golden State

00:01:00.600 Killer and how this guy was eventually caught. And finally, one of our Fraud Week episodes

00:01:06.520 on the crypto convict with the man himself who many of our staff thought was very hot.

00:01:14.100 Just going to tell you that up front. Enjoy, and I'll see you on Monday.

00:01:17.200 Idaho murder suspect Brian Kohlberger in court just a short time ago,

00:01:24.180 waiving his right to a speedy preliminary hearing. He will get a preliminary hearing,

00:01:29.380 but it will not be ASAP. The judge setting a court date for June 26th. This will be the point at

00:01:36.600 which prosecutors can present the evidence they have trying to convince the court that this

00:01:40.840 case should go forward. They will almost certainly get it and we will go forward

00:01:45.540 with a trial. June 26th, of course, more than five months from now. We know that DNA played a role

00:01:52.620 in helping to identify Kohlberger as the accused suspect in connection with the murder of these

00:01:58.040 four Idaho college students on November 13th. They were murdered, according to the affidavit,

00:02:03.580 between 4 a.m. and 4.20 a.m. in the middle of the night. It was basically a 16-minute

00:02:08.720 window of time in which someone went into their home, went up to the third floor where they

00:02:14.680 murdered two girls, went down to the second floor, murdered one girl and her boyfriend,

00:02:19.640 and left the other two women, reported to be sleeping in that house as roommates, alone.

00:02:26.220 One we now know from the affidavit says she did see him. She laid eyes on him as he left the house

00:02:31.620 saying he had a surgical mask on, the kind we wear during COVID, that she remembered he had

00:02:37.880 bushy eyebrows, medium build, and that was basically what she remembered about him,

00:02:44.200 dressed in black. There is reporting that something called investigative genetic genealogy

00:02:50.100 may have played a part in actually nabbing this guy. And today, we are thrilled to have one of

00:02:56.860 the world's top experts in that field join us for the show. What started as a hobby has literally

00:03:03.400 changed lives. CeCe Moore is now bringing justice to victims and getting violent criminals off the

00:03:10.020 streets by the hundred. I mean, wait until you hear the numbers. Often helping solve crimes that

00:03:15.840 have baffled police for decades, and we will discuss some of them and how this method of

00:03:21.020 crime fighting has become absolutely integral to putting criminals behind bars. CeCe Moore says

00:03:27.060 there will be no more serial killers because of this. When I first interviewed her back in 2018,

00:03:33.400 She had just started working on criminal cases.

00:03:36.720 At the time, six cases she worked on had led to arrests.

00:03:40.940 Today, that number has ballooned over 250 solves.

00:03:45.940 About 200 of those have identified violent criminals.

00:03:50.420 The rest involve unidentified Jane and John Doe's,

00:03:53.360 many of whom were victims of violent crime.

00:03:55.680 Think about it.

00:03:56.120 Sometimes they find bodies, including young victims,

00:04:01.380 teenagers who have gone missing,

00:04:03.340 who are on milk cartons and so on,

00:04:05.600 and we never know what happened to these kids.

00:04:08.940 Well, CeCe Moore is helping put some names out there

00:04:11.540 in connection with these victims

00:04:15.120 and giving families the closure they need,

00:04:19.060 nevermind spotting the actual perpetrators of the crimes.

00:04:22.900 CeCe Moore is a genetic genealogist

00:04:24.880 and founder of DNA Detectives. 0.88

00:04:26.540 She is also chief genetic genealogist

00:04:28.860 at Parabon Nanolabs,

00:04:30.400 the incredible lab that helps solve these crimes.

00:04:36.920 Cece, welcome. Great to see you again.

00:04:40.080 Thanks for having me on the show. It's been a long time.

00:04:43.800 Yeah, it's been going on five years now since I first interviewed you,

00:04:48.060 and your practice was sort of in its infancy. I mean, you had just joined Parabon, I think,

00:04:54.620 for three months at that point when I interviewed you in May of 2018.

00:04:59.780 Wow, it's been quite a wild ride since then.

00:05:03.240 You know, I'd been a genetic genealogist solving mysteries for many years by that point,

00:05:07.900 but I had just started working with law enforcement.

00:05:11.280 Right, right.

00:05:12.020 And so let's just give the audience, I love this piece of your story, the background of

00:05:16.540 how you got into this.

00:05:17.400 It's not like you got a PhD in criminology.

00:05:21.200 You had never been a cop or an FBI agent.

00:05:24.340 Explain how you got into this and sort of helped discover this.

00:05:26.860 Well, I had always loved genetics and genealogy, two separate things. And I was thrilled when I

00:05:36.520 found out in the year, about a little after 2000, that a company called Family Tree DNA was offering

00:05:44.240 DNA tests for people who wanted to use it to learn more about their family history.

00:05:49.960 And so I started reading about what they were doing. And at the time, I didn't have a lot of

00:05:55.760 money to test. So I didn't start testing immediately. I just kept up with the brand

00:06:00.880 new field and what people were learning about it. I was building my own family tree using paper

00:06:08.740 records, the paper trail we call it, which is how all of us started. All of us who are interested

00:06:15.660 in genetic genealogy started by building our own tree. That wasn't something I had done when I was

00:06:20.840 really young. I was extremely busy with all sorts of different pursuits. It was something that I did

00:06:26.600 when my niece, my oldest niece was about to be married. And I was trying to think of what would

00:06:32.180 be an interesting gift, a unique gift. So I thought, Oh, I'll build our family tree. Aha.

00:06:37.260 Right. Famous last words, never finished it. She never got that gift. But that's what got me into

00:06:43.280 it. And the combination of two things that I was really passionate about was so fascinating to me.

00:06:52.420 And so that was really the beginning of my involvement in genealogy and then genetic

00:06:58.560 genealogy. So how did it turn to crime fighting? Well, that's a long story. I guess we have quite

00:07:07.020 a bit of time, but very early on when I became involved in this, I was aware that there was

00:07:14.080 a huge amount of potential. When we first started with genetic genealogy, we were only using

00:07:20.460 more limited type of testing. The Y chromosome testing, which traces your father's father's

00:07:27.260 father's father's line, and mitochondrial DNA testing, which traces your mother's mother's

00:07:32.200 mother's mother's line. And it was quite limited. And a few of us started asking, could we use

00:07:38.980 autosomal DNA? So autosomal DNA is the type you inherit from-

00:07:42.880 Let me stop you. Hold on. Hold on. Because I want to make sure I understand it. So when you were

00:07:48.060 just doing those two types, tracing the Y and tracing the X, how were you doing? Before we

00:07:54.940 get to the more advanced, what were you doing? What kind of crime fighting or examination were

00:07:59.660 you doing with those and how did you even get access to those? So it was all about family

00:08:03.840 history at that point. Women had to test their father for the Y chromosome to learn about their 0.93

00:08:09.220 father's line, or you could test a brother or a cousin. I tested my mom's first cousin so I could

00:08:15.240 look at her direct paternal line, my maternal grandfather's line, tested my dad. What you're

00:08:22.500 trying to do is see the origin. And when you say that, forgive me for interrupting, I just want to

00:08:26.640 make sure everybody understands. When you say test them, like I'm going to have my brother

00:08:29.400 tested for his Y chromosome. What does that mean? What do they do? Like a cheek swab or how do they

00:08:34.480 test it? Yeah. It was a cheek swab and you have to convince one of your relatives to do it. And

00:08:41.520 they think you were crazy, of course, back then, because no one had ever even heard of this type

00:08:45.820 of testing at that point. Okay. Let's go. Keep going. So mitochondrial DNA is your mother's,

00:08:52.180 mother's mother's mother's line. And both of these types of DNA change really slowly. So you're

00:08:58.240 looking at deep ancestry. You're looking at the origins of your direct paternal line and your

00:09:03.780 direct maternal line, but you're not examining the inner parts of your family tree. And so

00:09:09.260 autosomal DNA is a different type of DNA. Again, before we get to that, let me just ask you a

00:09:14.100 couple more questions before we're still in the infancy stage. What do you get back? So you mail

00:09:18.960 it into some company, the cheek swab. And then when you get back, you know, generations back

00:09:25.060 on the Y chromosome, the Y line on your dad's side, what are they saying to you? Your great,

00:09:30.680 great, great, great grandpa was this guy? Like what comes back? What comes back is a list of

00:09:36.280 men with the Y chromosome that would have similar or identical Y chromosome signatures. Now,

00:09:42.740 because in many societies, surnames are passed down from father to son, father to son, just like

00:09:49.420 the Y chromosome, you often will see surname continuity. So many of us started these volunteer

00:09:55.860 surname projects where we would. How do they know? Like, let's say, you know, my dad, my dad's last

00:10:02.440 name was Kelly and so was his dad and so on. So, but how do they know whether, you know, my great,

00:10:08.460 great-grandfather is linked to me because my great-great-grandfather wasn't putting DNA into

00:10:12.920 anything and sending in a cheap swab. So how do they know? Well, they don't know. You have to

00:10:18.180 interpret it. So in my case, I tested my dad's brother to make sure they had the same Y chromosome,

00:10:24.600 same father. I tested a second cousin to make sure his Y chromosome was the same. And I finally

00:10:30.880 tested a fifth cousin to confirm that my dad's great-great-great-great-grandfather was the person

00:10:38.160 that the paper records tell us it was.

00:10:40.540 So I was following his surname, my surname, more

00:10:43.980 back generation, you know, generation, generation.

00:10:47.200 So keep going back in that tree,

00:10:50.160 confirming my grandfather is the correct person,

00:10:52.940 my great-grandfather.

00:10:53.520 Now, I don't mean to be dense.

00:10:54.800 Help me out.

00:10:55.840 But I want to understand.

00:10:57.000 So like my dad was Ed Kelly.

00:11:00.320 They don't have Ed Kelly in the system,

00:11:03.020 you know, that does this testing

00:11:04.600 because he never did any DNA testing.

00:11:06.700 he died a long time ago. So what would my thing come back saying, Ed Kelly was your father? And

00:11:14.220 how would they know that? Like, that's kind of where you come in. I realized to figure out family

00:11:18.200 tree, but like, what, how would they know who on earth I'm related to just based on my brother's

00:11:25.500 DNA? How would they be able to link it to somebody who wasn't in their system? They don't. That's

00:11:30.340 what you do. So you would get a list of people who say, shared your brother's Y chromosome,

00:11:35.820 or it was very similar to his Y chromosome.

00:11:38.560 Modern day. 0.91

00:11:39.800 Yes, and probably a lot of them

00:11:41.500 would have the surname Kelly.

00:11:43.480 Now, that is only if there was no break

00:11:45.940 in your direct paternal line,

00:11:47.520 meaning no adoption, misattributed paternity,

00:11:50.160 that type of thing.

00:11:51.540 And so you might get a bunch of Kellys,

00:11:54.040 but if there was an adoption or a break in that line,

00:11:57.340 maybe you'd get a bunch of Smiths, right?

00:11:59.860 And then you really have a mystery.

00:12:01.480 Then you say, okay, why is my brother

00:12:03.800 or father's Y chromosome?

00:12:05.120 connecting to Smith's instead of Kelly's. And so it's just a way of confirming or learning more

00:12:13.340 about that direct paternal line. And like, for instance, in my family, there was this argument

00:12:18.360 whether our Moors were from Germany or Ireland. So that was one of my interests, was trying to

00:12:23.840 prove which it was. Is it an Irish origin Y chromosome or a German origin Y chromosome?

00:12:31.180 And so when we were first using genetic genealogy, it was looking at this very deep ancestry.

00:12:36.960 It wasn't looking at anywhere near present day.

00:12:40.260 Now it could help.

00:12:40.840 So did you get back something that said like more, more, more, more, more, more,

00:12:45.260 thousands of mores?

00:12:46.480 Like I would, Kelly, of course, is very common.

00:12:48.520 I can imagine I'd get back hundreds of thousands.

00:12:51.820 I mean, it would be so many that it would be, it would feel useless.

00:12:55.580 So where do you start?

00:12:56.420 There are different origins for both of our surnames, Moore and Kelly, because they're so common. And so you would only match those Kellys or Moors in my case that have the same origin. You know, Moore is from all over the world, basically. Now, Kelly, you're probably looking at Ireland.

00:13:14.300 And so you might get lots of Irish people, not necessarily with the last name Kelly,

00:13:19.140 because the Y chromosome goes back so far.

00:13:21.960 You might connect before they even adopted the surnames, but you're only going to match

00:13:27.580 that group, not all the other Kellys in the world.

00:13:30.760 And my dad's Moore line was actually really unique.

00:13:34.440 When I first joined the Moore surname project, he didn't match any of the Moores.

00:13:39.360 And there were already quite a few people in it, even in the early days.

00:13:42.580 and so it'll tell you which group of those moors which group of those kelly's your line fits into

00:13:50.220 and you wouldn't have thousands of matches typically i mean when i started you had almost

00:13:55.820 no matches you were lucky if you got a match and so that's based on so they would they're

00:14:01.480 looking at moors that are roaming the earth right now who have submitted dna to try to give you as

00:14:06.500 much info as they can. And they can see that your dad, your dad Moore has similar DNA to these other

00:14:13.280 Moors who have also participated here and given a cheek swab. And we can glean something about 0.84

00:14:18.200 their ancestors just to get you started. It's really just a start. Right. So much of it is

00:14:24.500 building trees, building your own tree, building other people's tree, trying to find where they

00:14:29.400 converge. How far back can you find that common ancestor in the tree? And so it's not one of these

00:14:35.620 things where it's done for you. You're doing all the work. You're just getting the clues.

00:14:40.840 Okay. There's a man in Michigan who shares my dad's Y chromosome. There's a man in Germany

00:14:46.500 who shares my dad's Y chromosome. Why? We got to figure out why they do.

00:14:51.800 Okay. And that's, now I get it. So these are modern day men who have also sent in their DNA.

00:14:57.260 And so it's a start. Somehow there's a relation between this guy and my dad, and maybe this guy

00:15:03.820 and me. And, uh, this is where your family tree building comes in. And so let's go to that. Cause

00:15:10.480 that's like an investigative piece that is like, you know, newspaper articles, Oh bits. I remember

00:15:17.580 we talked about this on NBC, but it's like anything you can get your hands on to tell you

00:15:22.600 the story about that guy. And then you build it out around him, like a tree, like just as far

00:15:27.640 like an actual tree, like what branch goes here and what branch goes there. Right. So when we

00:15:32.300 were working with Y chromosome, we would only build the father's father's father's father's

00:15:37.080 father's father. What you're talking about now is what we're doing today with a totally different

00:15:43.120 type of DNA. Now that's the autosomal DNA that you were trying to mention. Okay. So you used to

00:15:49.440 just do sort of this investigative work and trying to figure out the dad vertically, the mom, and

00:15:54.360 now, okay, now take it to where you wanted to take it with what, how it's changed. So that was

00:15:58.780 really fascinating and wonderful. And we started thousands of surname projects doing that. But for

00:16:04.780 those of us that were hungry for more, we really wanted to be able to explore those ancestors in

00:16:11.540 the middle of our tree, not just those lines. And we started asking some of the scientists,

00:16:17.140 could we use a type of DNA called autosomal DNA, which is auto, like the car, zomal. And

00:16:23.340 And that type of DNA, even women inherit that from their fathers.

00:16:28.300 So we wouldn't have to test a brother or a father or a cousin.

00:16:32.160 We could test our own DNA to learn about our father's side.

00:16:35.860 You get 50% from each of your parents.

00:16:38.680 You get, on average, 25% from each of your grandparents, about 12.5% from each of your

00:16:44.420 great-grandparents.

00:16:45.600 So that seemed really exciting.

00:16:47.900 But scientists told us back before 2009 that it couldn't be done.

00:16:53.340 that you could not use autosomal DNA for genealogy because it recombines so quickly.

00:16:59.500 We were used to using very static type of DNA, type of DNA that mutated very slowly.

00:17:04.640 But now, asking about autosomal DNA, the traditional belief at that time was that it changes too quickly,

00:17:13.720 and therefore you wouldn't be able to use it in genealogy.

00:17:17.260 But that turned out not to be true.

00:17:19.600 That's right.

00:17:20.220 Right. So a very groundbreaking company called 23andMe introduced an autosomal-based test

00:17:27.960 for health purposes. I think most of us have heard of 23andMe now, but back then it was brand new.

00:17:35.100 And just as an FYI, the woman who started that and runs it still, I think, is Ann Wojcicki,

00:17:40.680 who's the sister of Susan Wojcicki. I know that the last name is spelled tough.

00:17:45.120 Yes. And the sister of Susan, who runs YouTube.

00:17:49.220 And there's another gunner of a sister in that family. 0.99

00:17:51.960 And the mother was a gunner.

00:17:52.980 It's a very interesting family.

00:17:55.440 And Anne used to be married to one of the Google founders,

00:17:59.700 Sergey Brin, I think.

00:18:01.300 Okay, I'm really testing my memory.

00:18:02.900 In any event, she, on her own, decided to start this company,

00:18:06.000 very interesting, called 23andMe, which most people now have heard of.

00:18:09.400 And correct me if I'm wrong, Cece,

00:18:11.020 but I thought it started off as like a health website.

00:18:16.560 You know, it's like you could send it in people who wanted to know, am I going to get Alzheimer's or what am I prone to would use 23andMe to figure out based on your genetics what you're necessarily guaranteed to get, but what you're prone to get.

00:18:29.840 And now it's just branched out well beyond that.

00:18:32.340 Right. 0.98

00:18:32.600 So Anne wanted to democratize our access to our own genetic information, which her purpose was different. 0.99

00:18:40.440 It was for health information. 0.99

00:18:41.940 She had worked on Wall Street in that sector and was discouraged about profit making on our health and wanted to give people the power to be able to work with their own genetic information and learn about their own health and take charge of that.

00:18:59.640 And so her goal was very different than mine and my field, but we saw what she was doing and said,

00:19:08.120 well, wait a minute, can we test our own autosomal DNA at her company and see if we can use it for

00:19:14.560 genealogy? And so that was really early adopters, people that had been engaged in genetic genealogy

00:19:22.500 with these other types of testing and wanted more. We just wanted to see if we could learn

00:19:28.140 even more. And there's so you were you were asking 23andMe if they would help you out on that

00:19:33.080 in that goal or we didn't have to at first. We just had to buy what was a very expensive test

00:19:38.400 back then. And in that case, you spit in a tube. This is saliva collection instead of a cheek swab

00:19:44.720 and mail it in. And back then you could share with anybody. You could share your information

00:19:50.320 and you could check and see if you shared any DNA with someone. So we started looking for shared

00:19:56.520 segments, so long identical segments of DNA, those ATCs and Gs lining up in a row. Because if you

00:20:05.380 had that, it meant you likely had a common ancestor somewhere in your family tree. And it

00:20:10.620 opened up the inner branches for exploration. Now, we didn't know if it would work at first,

00:20:16.300 but at the same time, they had a very forward-thinking scientist named Mike McPherson

00:20:22.060 at 23andMe who created a beta test of a tool called Relative Finder. And there they compared

00:20:30.020 everyone in their database against each other to see if they could find those long segments

00:20:34.460 of identical DNA. So interesting. Yep. Yep. And they did. So that's, it's really interesting

00:20:40.040 because, you know, some people find 23andMe and Sesshi.com controversial. They're worried that

00:20:45.140 the government's going to hold onto your DNA and all that stuff, whatever. But

00:20:48.220 they don't get enough credit for being sort of seedlings for crime fighting in the way you're

00:20:54.960 talking about now. Now, they don't work with law enforcement. We'll get to all that. It's not,

00:20:57.920 it's just that their innovation should be credited for helping give birth to this new

00:21:04.360 lane of DNA exploration, which is putting tons of criminals in jail.

00:21:08.760 Right. I don't think they want credit for it, but they certainly do deserve some credit for it.

00:21:13.300 You know, I went to them very early on, just shortly after that time that I'm discussing now, and asked if they would be willing to accept crime scene DNA into their database. And they schooled me very quickly and sent me to her general counsel, Ashley Gold at the time. And we had about a three hour long conversation about why that wasn't something that they wanted to do, why that wasn't part of their business plan.

00:21:40.220 And so very early on.

00:21:41.180 Because you know people are paranoid about this.

00:21:42.680 People, they know like people, it's for all sorts of reasons.

00:21:46.060 Not like everybody's a criminal or worried that their brother's a criminal, but there

00:21:49.620 are some of those.

00:21:50.620 But it's also just distrust of government and just, they're not government, 23, but it's

00:21:54.760 just like distrust of having your information out there in the 21st century and where it

00:21:59.460 could go.

00:22:00.000 So I can see why they don't really want to be the assistant on this.

00:22:04.280 And we should just make clear now, we'll get to it later.

00:22:05.980 But it's a different database that you use for your analysis and your crime fighting.

00:22:12.400 It's not 23andMe.

00:22:13.280 It's not Ancestry.com.

00:22:14.740 Though I will say some of my favorite stories on NBC were the 23andMe stories or the Ancestry.com stories where people, because it's well beyond looking into your health history now.

00:22:24.240 It is finding long-lost relatives and, like, the identical twins, you know, those were some of my favorite stories.

00:22:31.380 You think of going to 23andMe, you get your results back, and it says, you have an identical

00:22:37.140 twin.

00:22:38.400 And we did some reunion shows of some of these women.

00:22:41.760 It was, I'll never forget that stuff.

00:22:43.800 Great stories.

00:22:45.680 Yeah, I mean, it's just an amazing tool for any type of family mystery, missing family

00:22:54.060 members.

00:22:54.960 It's incredible.

00:22:56.380 But at that beginning, it was very clear that we would never fulfill that potential

00:23:00.760 unless we got lots of people to take the test,

00:23:04.260 which is obviously one of the reasons

00:23:05.620 they didn't want to involve law enforcement,

00:23:07.480 especially at that early time.

00:23:09.340 And that made a lot of sense to me as well.

00:23:11.480 Now, coming from media and marketing,

00:23:14.160 I knew that the only way that we were going to be able

00:23:18.620 to build these databases

00:23:19.740 to where we could actually solve mysteries

00:23:21.800 was by sharing positive DNA testing stories.

00:23:26.440 And so I started working with 23andMe

00:23:28.960 and on my own independently to promote positive DNA testing stories. So if someone made

00:23:34.660 an amazing discovery or even an upsetting discovery that led to a more positive outcome,

00:23:42.320 these were things that I was starting to pitch to the media on my own, but 23andMe was also

00:23:47.980 getting inquiries and they would send them my way a lot of times. We would have meetings with,

00:23:53.140 for instance, a very early meeting with the 2020 producer, she reached out to 23andMe and they

00:23:59.300 said, hey, Cece, come on up so you can tell her some of the stories of the things you're finding

00:24:03.680 in this database. And so that was- Yeah, because sometimes it goes a different way. Sometimes it's

00:24:08.540 like, why is there no link between me and my dad? That's awkward too. And that's happened to

00:24:16.240 millions of people now. There's over 40 million people that have taken these direct-to-consumer

00:24:21.300 DNA tests. And it's a pretty high percentage, surprisingly, that have found out that their

00:24:27.500 father was not their biological father or one of their grandfathers was not. And so I don't know

00:24:33.320 if people realize just how many people have made that shocking discovery from direct-to-consumer

00:24:38.820 DNA testing. Oh, what a tangled web we weave, right? Some of those secrets women in particular

00:24:46.040 in these cases are keeping. Maybe you feel it's better left unsaid, maybe not. Maybe it gives you

00:24:51.860 the chance to connect with somebody whose genetic background or other background would be really

00:24:56.740 interesting and helpful to you. You never know. It's a personal choice. So just to move it forward,

00:25:01.640 you wind up, you're using a website, not 23andMe, not Ancestry.com called GEDmatch. And my

00:25:09.340 understanding is the way you populated this GED match, because you point out you need as many

00:25:15.960 samples on there as possible, is by encouraging people who are into this, who would like to

00:25:21.880 connect with other relatives to take their 23andMe, their Ancestry.com results and upload them to GED

00:25:28.320 match and to widen the chances that they'll connect with somebody. Right. So GED match was

00:25:34.480 started by two friends of mine, Curtis Rogers and John Olson back in 2010, 11. And of course,

00:25:41.220 when it started, there was no one in there. So we had to convince people to download their raw data

00:25:46.660 from one of the other sites, which at the time was just 23andMe and family tree DNA,

00:25:52.200 and upload to GEDmatch. And so it was just a small site, kind of a playground for more advanced

00:25:58.180 genetic genealogists. It was where we could try out new tools. We could do cross-company comparisons

00:26:04.240 So if you tested at 23andMe and I tested at FamilyTreeDNA or later Ancestry, we could both upload there for free and then compare our data looking for those long identical shared segments.

00:26:18.340 Okay.

00:26:19.100 And by the way, the criminal database, you know, like if you get arrested for I don't know how long it's been going on in America that they do a DNA test of you if you get arrested for a felony.

00:26:30.680 How long is, how long, do you know how long they've been doing that?

00:26:33.640 And are those results also uploaded to GEDmatch?

00:26:38.440 They are not.

00:26:39.260 So law enforcement has their own database, which is based on a different type of DNA

00:26:44.220 marker than what we use in genealogy.

00:26:46.740 So they're not comparable.

00:26:48.820 They've been doing it for about, well, it depends what state and which jurisdiction.

00:26:53.840 So about 25 years.

00:26:55.560 Some started earlier.

00:26:57.300 I've helped identify two serial killers who were put to death in Texas in 1999.

00:27:02.400 and neither of them were in the law enforcement database,

00:27:06.020 which seems shocking to me,

00:27:07.760 but I've since learned

00:27:08.940 that it was kind of hit and miss at first.

00:27:11.000 You know, it took some time to get it off the ground

00:27:13.100 and collect those samples from violent criminals.

00:27:17.760 And so we can't be sure-

00:27:18.480 But here's what's crazy.

00:27:19.580 Yeah, we can't-

00:27:20.400 Here's what's crazy.

00:27:22.700 And we're going to get to some of the cases that you've solved,

00:27:24.800 but some of them are using DNA from crimes in the 70s,

00:27:28.680 You know, and that's semen or blood or what have you. And it really was very forward thinking of law enforcement back then before they had any idea what we'd be able to do in 2023 to save all that stuff in, not sadly in every case, but in a lot of the cases, making crime solving 50 years later possible.

00:27:53.900 Yeah, we owe them a huge debt of gratitude because they couldn't have possibly understood just how valuable that physical evidence was going to be. I've actually worked cases back to 1958 now.

00:28:07.780 Whoa.

00:28:07.900 Yeah, quite a bit before I was even born. And so it's just amazing what can be done in those cases where the crime scene investigators were so forward thinking. They collected things they couldn't have imagined how powerful they would be today.

00:28:22.720 how long does dna stick around you know like 58 i mean i think there's probably a hierarchy on

00:28:30.420 the samples right like you'd rather have semen in a rape case than i don't know touch dna you tell

00:28:38.660 me but how long does it last well that's a really good question i mean we can analyze ancient

00:28:46.680 remains, right? When they dig up some old royalty and things or accidentally run into the one under

00:28:53.800 the car park, there's still DNA there. So it just depends on the environment, how something was

00:28:59.760 stored or where somebody was buried as to how long that DNA will survive. But it can survive for

00:29:07.880 hundreds of years in some cases, even thousands. I mean, look, they've been able to analyze the

00:29:14.100 genome from Neanderthals. So DNA lasts a very, very long time, but it absolutely depends on

00:29:21.060 the environment. And so back to the crime fighting element of this. So now you're getting more

00:29:26.220 advanced. You've got the new, the GEDmatch, which is getting bigger and more useful. And now can you

00:29:32.680 just briefly describe how you do start filling in the tree, how it's become, this is the tool

00:29:38.520 that now that you're using to fight crime. Yeah. Let me also mention, we have one other

00:29:42.920 database that we can use with law enforcement and that's family tree DNA. The original pioneers of

00:29:50.060 genetic genealogy decided that they wanted to help law enforcement as well. Now it is the smallest

00:29:56.600 database, unfortunately, even though it was the first one, it's the smallest one. And so the

00:30:02.100 databases we can use are the two smallest in the field. That's GEDmatch, which has about 1.5 million

00:30:07.760 people in it, and Family Tree DNA that has about 1.25 million people in their autosomal DNA

00:30:13.880 database. They have three different databases. How many in GEDmatch? A GEDmatch has about 1.5

00:30:20.540 million, but only about a third of those are opted into law enforcement matching. So we can

00:30:26.540 only use about 500,000 to identify violent criminals. That's incredibly small. I mean,

00:30:33.800 I'm even more impressed that you've solved all these crimes with such a small sample size.

00:30:39.920 Yes. It's like stepping back into 2014 when I was first trying to solve family mysteries,

00:30:46.540 adoptions, and things like that. It is very difficult. It's very challenging.

00:30:51.280 So give us an actual example that's easy to understand of how you've used this to solve a

00:30:57.180 crime. So we get the unknown individual's DNA from the crime scene. It might be semen,

00:31:03.800 blood, saliva, even touch DNA. And we have to send that to a private lab. So none of the crime labs

00:31:11.460 have the capability to create the type of DNA profile that we need. The law enforcement

00:31:16.900 databases, as I mentioned, are based on a type of genetic marker called an STR, single nucleotide,

00:31:23.840 I'm sorry, single tandem repeat. And we use SNPs, which is a totally different type of genetic

00:31:31.580 marker, a single nucleotide polymorphism. And so we have to start from scratch. And that means

00:31:38.080 there has to be DNA left from that crime scene. If they've used it all up, then we cannot do

00:31:43.660 genetic genealogy. So it goes to a private lab where it is analyzed. And just like they would

00:31:50.220 analyze it at say AncestryDNA or 23andMe, we need it to be compatible with those profiles because

00:31:56.420 that's the type of profiles we're going to compare against. So it's about 700,000 to 800,000 genetic

00:32:02.700 markers across the genome. And then it goes to our bioinformaticists, our scientists. Now,

00:32:08.080 because these are degraded, mixed, contaminated samples, these are not like if you spit in the

00:32:14.200 tube and you have this perfect DNA sample, these are non-optimal samples. And so we need something

00:32:20.180 called bioinformatics, which we have an amazing scientist, Dr. Ellen Gray-Tack and Dr. Ellen

00:32:26.480 Katie, sorry, Dr. Janet Katie, it's Parabon, that work with that degraded DNA to try to repair it

00:32:34.120 and make it as similar to a file as if you and I were to spit in a tube and mail it in.

00:32:40.180 Once we have that, we upload it to GEDmatch and or Family Tree DNA. It's compared against all

00:32:46.140 the people there that are opted into law enforcement matching, and we get a list of

00:32:50.700 matches. Now, those matches are typically going to be really distant relatives. And that's because

00:32:56.620 these are really small databases we're working with. So the chance of a close relative of a

00:33:01.940 suspect are very small. So we're lucky if we get a second cousin or a few second cousins,

00:33:08.300 sometimes closer, but mostly we're working with third, fourth, fifth, sixth cousins and beyond.

00:33:13.500 and we can predict what the likely relationships are based on how much DNA someone is sharing with

00:33:20.260 that unknown person. You can see the percentage. Okay. So this is fascinating. And then you draw

00:33:26.040 the family tree. So if you've got a sixth cousin, you got to start drawing a family tree. And this

00:33:29.940 is actually funny for me because I know who my sixth cousin is, or at least one of them.

00:33:34.160 And it's somebody famous. It's somebody famous. That's the reason I know because somebody actually

00:33:39.240 did the family training. We're like, oh my God, we're related to her. It's Loretta Swit,

00:33:44.640 Hot Lips Houlihan. You're around my age, so I know you know who that is, of MASH fame. So she

00:33:50.780 and I are related. It was so fun. She did a Barnes and Noble book signing up on the Upper West Side

00:33:55.040 when I lived there. And I popped in and told her we were long lost cousins. She could not have been

00:34:01.040 nicer. But anyway, so let's say I committed a crime, but you didn't know it was me. And Loretta

00:34:06.640 had updated or had uploaded her DNA to GEDmatch.

00:34:09.920 So now you're looking for me.

00:34:11.260 You don't know it's me,

00:34:12.040 but you find Loretta Swit is the sixth cousin of this person.

00:34:15.680 And you start doing these concentric circles around her, right?

00:34:18.620 That you just start to do like,

00:34:20.380 who are all the people she's related to

00:34:22.380 and her aunts and uncles are related to.

00:34:24.360 And you gotta, that's so much work

00:34:26.260 to finally get to the possibles.

00:34:28.800 So there's a little bit more efficient way to do it,

00:34:31.080 which is I'll say, okay, who's not,

00:34:33.240 who's, I've got the list of who's sharing DNA

00:34:35.660 with the suspect.

00:34:36.640 but who on that list shares DNA with each other? That's really important. So it's not just who's

00:34:43.000 sharing with the suspect, but who is sharing with other people on that list. So say matches one,

00:34:48.860 three, and five share DNA with each other. If I can build all their family trees, I should be able

00:34:54.600 to identify their common ancestor. The only reason two people would share these identical segments

00:35:00.260 of DNA is if they inherited them from somebody in the past. They have to have common ancestry.

00:35:06.640 And so if I can identify where that DNA comes from, which of the great-great-grandparents are further back, then that gives me one piece of my unknown person's tree.

00:35:19.400 And so I create what's called genetic networks.

00:35:23.460 I'll group the matches into networks of people that are sharing DNA with each other or clusters.

00:35:30.840 And each of those clusters will represent one branch of the unknown person's family tree.

00:35:35.700 So we start piecing it back together that way. Maybe I'll have one set of great-great-grandparents, one set of great-great-great-grandparents. Maybe if I'm lucky, I can identify great-grandparents. And then I have to find that one person or set of siblings that is related to all of those matches and descended from those sets of ancestors.

00:35:57.160 So it's like reverse engineering someone's family tree and eventually their identity based on their ancestors.

00:36:05.080 And then do you get to the step of, let's take the Idaho murders, where it's like, okay, I know it could be, you know, somebody in this cluster or this cluster or this cluster, but hey, there's a guy in this cluster who lives within 10 miles of the murder site.

00:36:22.580 Like, do you use evidence like that to help narrow it down, or you're only in the, you know, genetic genealogy field?

00:36:29.720 It depends how much data you have. If you have enough matches that you can connect to someone's mother's side and their father's side, maybe three or even four of their grandparents' lines, you can narrow it down to just one immediate family.

00:36:43.520 But because these databases are so small, we often don't have that. So say we could only identify one set of his great-grandparents or great-great-grandparents. In that case, we would have to then do what's called reverse genealogy, identify all of their descendants and look for their descendants who are the right gender, age range, maybe live in the right area, drive a white car.

00:37:09.360 and so we do look at those other things and that's something I think a lot of people don't

00:37:14.320 realize is that in with investigative genetic genealogy the DNA just gets us started without

00:37:21.500 someone's family tree it's meaningless without trying to being able to identify the descendants

00:37:27.020 of the common ancestors we identify it's meaningless so we're looking at location

00:37:32.820 location's huge we look for the one branch of the tree that maybe moved closer to the crime scene

00:37:37.660 and 99% of the time we find someone who lived right there within 10, 20 miles, sometimes

00:37:44.920 within one mile. And so that's a really powerful part of it. And then we use phenotyping at Parabon

00:37:51.440 where they can predict eye color, hair color, skin color, even shape face. And so we use a lot

00:37:57.780 of different factors to narrow it down further when there isn't enough in the database to point

00:38:04.160 at just one person or one family. So that phenom time, that's very interesting because

00:38:09.120 that's something you can do even if there's no match, right? Like if you get DNA and you run it

00:38:16.060 through GEDmatch and there's just nothing, like nothing comes up, the DNA is still useful to you.

00:38:21.420 That's right. So we don't have many families or individuals in GEDmatch or family tree DNA

00:38:28.060 that are recent immigrants. And so it's really difficult to identify someone if they were born

00:38:34.920 in another country or their parents, or even grandparents or great grandparents were. And so

00:38:40.480 there are some cases where it's not viable to perform genetic genealogy, but Parabon can still

00:38:47.080 perform the phenotyping and still create this image of what someone might look like. Now it's

00:38:53.300 not meant to be photographic, but it's meant to give you their traits. And so it is used in quite

00:38:58.560 a few cases where there just aren't enough matches, aren't enough data for genetic genealogy.

00:39:06.360 But what I have found is where it's most powerful is in conjunction with each other. So maybe I

00:39:11.920 narrow it down to 10 males who all descend from these common ancestors. And then I can look which

00:39:17.700 ones have blue eyes, brown eyes, which ones have blonde hair, maybe red hair. And that can really

00:39:23.420 help to narrow it down because we want to give as few people as possible, right? We want this to be

00:39:29.480 efficient and we want to keep innocent people out of these investigations. So I work very hard to

00:39:35.660 try to narrow things down using all different types of information. So I'm not sending law

00:39:41.040 enforcement on a wild goose chase and sending them after innocent individuals. The moral of the story

00:39:45.840 is don't leave your DNA at a crime scene. Don't leave it. Even if you're not in the system,

00:39:49.480 even if nobody you know is in a system, CeCe Moore is going to get you. All right, stand by.

00:39:54.000 I got to squeeze in a break. There's so much to discuss. And I want to pick up the Idaho case

00:39:57.340 because they're saying that this was used to catch Brian Kohlberger. We'll talk about it next.

00:40:06.980 So let's talk about Idaho. This is, of course, on everybody's minds. And they have reported,

00:40:12.020 there have been reports that genetic genealogy was used in nabbing this suspected killer, Brian

00:40:17.800 Kohlberger, 28 years old, 10 miles away from the murder site, pursuing his PhD in criminology at

00:40:23.800 the University of Washington, the four victims from the University of Idaho. They have only told

00:40:30.980 us so far that DNA was detected on one button of the knife sheath that they tell us in the

00:40:40.120 supporting affidavit for the warrant for arrest was found next to one of the victims, one button

00:40:46.520 on a knife sheath. So that's kind of interesting. It's kind of surprising. I would think

00:40:53.640 there'd be more DNA at this site. So what does it tell you that they're zeroing in, first of all,

00:41:00.400 on just that one little button, as opposed to on the body of the four victims, on the

00:41:04.960 bedpost, on the door handles, right? What does it tell you?

00:41:09.960 Well, I think that he went to great lengths to not leave DNA. He likely had gloves on. He was,

00:41:17.160 you know, educated about this. You would think he certainly would have made sure he wasn't

00:41:22.720 leaving DNA behind, but he must have handled that knife sheath earlier when he didn't have gloves

00:41:29.380 on. That's my guess. But I also want to point out that they don't have to reveal everything

00:41:34.460 they have in the affidavit. And you know that, of course. And so I think it's very possible they

00:41:39.540 have additional DNA. And even if they didn't, they might by now, because I'm sure they've been going

00:41:44.620 through all of that physical evidence batch by batch, sending that to the Idaho Crime Lab

00:41:49.860 and trying to detect any additional DNA. So I don't think we'll really know what they have

00:41:55.620 until this case progresses. And hopefully they will find more DNA or already have.

00:42:01.400 It might be more complex, meaning there might be mixtures of blood.

00:42:06.300 Cases I've worked where there was a frenzied stabbing, almost always the knife has slipped

00:42:11.560 and cut the suspect as well.

00:42:14.120 But then you have a mixture, and you might even have a mixture of three people in this

00:42:18.540 case.

00:42:19.280 Maybe you have his blood plus two of the victim's blood, for instance, and they have to do what's

00:42:24.800 called deconvolution, where they extract out the victim's DNA and are left with just that

00:42:32.220 suspect's DNA. And so it's possible that that could have taken more time, which is possibly

00:42:37.640 why they were focusing on this knife sheath for the affidavit. I imagine that was touch DNA.

00:42:43.940 They say that what was found on that button was single source male DNA. So what does that mean?

00:42:50.280 means there was just one DNA contributor. So that's a much more straightforward DNA sample

00:42:56.560 than if they have a mixture otherwise, which could be why they focused on that for the affidavit

00:43:03.140 because it's the most straightforward. Now that was likely touch DNA, unless he happened to leave

00:43:08.460 a little bit of blood on that, but I would guess it's touch DNA. And that is just a few skin cells

00:43:14.040 most likely. So that's not very much DNA. And that really illustrates how far technology has

00:43:20.100 come. Yeah. So what, you know, my feeling as a lawyer in discussing this case is if I'm the

00:43:28.520 defense and best case scenario for Brian Kohlberger, that's all the DNA they have of

00:43:33.480 his at the scene. I'm thinking I'm good because maybe Brian Kohlberger went to the store wherever

00:43:40.740 they sold that knife in the sheath and he touched it, he picked it up and it was still left on

00:43:45.220 there. So how long does one's touch DNA last? You know, that'll be relevant. It will be. And I

00:43:52.620 agree with you. Touch DNA is not the optimal DNA sample that you would want to have in this case.

00:43:58.480 Let's hope maybe it was a drop of blood instead. And I'm wrong about my supposition that it was

00:44:02.860 touch DNA. But I think that the prosecution can argue that if he had handled it, then somebody

00:44:10.340 else would have had to have handled it. And their DNA should also be on there. And you would see a

00:44:15.080 mixture or you would see their DNA as the primary DNA. Now they can certainly argue that maybe the

00:44:21.220 next person to handle it wore gloves and they were trying to set them up. So they transported it to

00:44:26.380 the crime scene and left it there. So I do think there is some room for argument there. And it's

00:44:31.700 very fortunate that they have other evidence. And that's really important because DNA, as you well

00:44:37.060 know, should not be the only evidence in a case. You certainly hope they will be able to support it

00:44:43.840 with other types of evidence. This is, I mean, we're going to get into this on our legal panel

00:44:49.420 tomorrow, but this is why all the surveillance tape of the car and so on is relevant. But

00:44:53.860 I will say, it's not open and shut. It's definitely not open and shut. There's all

00:45:00.200 sorts of things around that crime scene. There's a Walmart, there's a 24-7 grocery store. You know,

00:45:05.740 if I'm his lawyer, I'm going to say that's why he was over there. That's why you see him going

00:45:09.360 by there. He's an insomniac. His own neighbor testified to that, not testified, but said it

00:45:14.480 to reporters. In any event, we'll get into that tomorrow. But wouldn't there be, if there was

00:45:19.160 touch DNA on the button, Cece, wouldn't there be typically touch DNA on the rest of the knife

00:45:24.960 sheath? Well, not if he wiped it down or I think the knife sheath was leather. It's maybe less

00:45:32.100 likely to retain that touch DNA than the button. It's touch DNA, it's transferable. It's easy to

00:45:40.460 wipe away. You can shake someone's hand and you get their touch DNA on your hand and you can then

00:45:46.660 transfer it to a different item. And so it is more transitory or transferable and it's harder to

00:45:55.600 detect. So I'm not sure they would find it on the, the leather. And also he might've wiped that down.

00:46:02.700 I mean, I'm surprised he didn't wipe the whole thing down. So he might've forgotten about the

00:46:06.600 button. So if they found, and we don't know what the order of events was. We don't know if they

00:46:10.700 found the white Hyundai Elantra and linked it to Brian Kohlberger, or if they got onto him from

00:46:15.600 this touch DNA. But if it was the latter, they have a couple of, let's say it's touch DNA, a couple

00:46:21.160 skin cells that the lab tech sees miraculously and good for him or her. And they run them into

00:46:27.340 their law enforcement database first, I would assume. Let's say there's no hits. As far as we

00:46:32.020 know, there was some sort of, well, I don't know, like Brian Kohlberg doesn't have a criminal record

00:46:36.780 as far as we know. I don't know that his father or anybody else does. So then what? Where do they

00:46:41.800 go from there? Well, there had to be enough DNA extracted by the Idaho Crime Lab that they were

00:46:47.120 able to split that and send some of it to the private lab that would have created the genetic

00:46:52.240 genealogy profile. And so there must have been, you know, enough, but even that could be a tiny

00:46:58.780 amount. So they would have created their profile, their law enforcement court admissible profile at

00:47:04.520 the crime lab, and then sent out what was remaining to a private lab. They would reanalyze

00:47:10.320 it from scratch and create that genetic genealogy profile, which I believe was likely sent back to

00:47:16.660 the FBI investigative genetic genealogy team. So I think it's very likely they did the genetic

00:47:22.500 genealogy in-house. We saw how closely involved the FBI was in this case, and they've been

00:47:27.980 training agents all over the country since you and I met to do this work. So for almost five years,

00:47:35.040 the FBI has been training their agents to do it. I suspect strongly they kept this in-house,

00:47:40.080 but they would have had to use a private lab to create that profile.

00:47:43.460 okay so that's and i want to ask you what you mean by create that profile if you mean i'm going to

00:47:48.660 take a break but if you mean create the this is what the suspect looks like or create the he's

00:47:54.860 got relatives and here they are we're going to pick that question up right after this break

00:47:58.220 love going through it line by line because it's really fascinating and it's absolutely going to

00:48:02.400 dominate the news cycle over the next year as we go to that preliminary hearing and then ultimately

00:48:06.060 the trial cc more stays with us on this and other cases coming up and remember folks you can find

00:48:11.120 the megan kelly show live on sirius xm triumph channel 111 every weekday at noon east full video

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00:49:40.120 So, Cece, the question we left lingering before we went to break was,

00:49:44.060 if they get, let's say it's touch DNA, some skin cells from the button of that sheath,

00:49:49.720 and they don't get a hit in the criminal database, then they send it most likely to a private lab

00:49:55.980 and come up with a profile. And my question to you was, do you mean the kind of profile that

00:50:01.820 they say, well, it looks like he has brown eyes and brown hair and is about this descent,

00:50:06.220 or the kind of profile that says, here's his dad? Actually, neither. It is a profile of genetic

00:50:13.100 markers, somewhere between probably 500,000 and a million genetic markers of those SNPs, those

00:50:19.940 single nucleotide polymorphisms that I mentioned earlier. And so it doesn't tell you anything

00:50:25.720 on its own. It's only going to give you important information if you either compare it against

00:50:31.600 others, their own genetic files, or phenotyping. Now, I have no information that they performed

00:50:39.240 phenotyping in this case. I don't think they did because they didn't work with Parabon and they're

00:50:43.680 really the ones doing that work. So they would have created that SNP profile that looks just

00:50:49.660 like if you spit in a tube at Ancestry or 23andMe and mailed that in and got your own raw data file.

00:50:57.280 All right. But if they don't have a hit in the database, in any database, private or otherwise,

00:51:03.600 to connect the DNA to, then they're out of luck unless they can zero in on a particular source

00:51:10.860 of DNA and do a comparison, right? Right. And so you're always going to get matches in the

00:51:16.480 genetic genealogy database, but if they're way too distant, if it's too small amount of shared DNA,

00:51:22.380 then you're not going to be able to perform genetic genealogy on it. So everyone has matches,

00:51:28.060 but maybe not close enough matches. And then you're right. If you could not use genetic

00:51:33.600 genealogy to point toward that suspect, they would have to try to find him in other ways

00:51:38.960 and then collect his DNA or a close relative's DNA and compare it against that original profile

00:51:45.360 that was created by the crime lab.

00:51:47.800 We don't know what results they had

00:51:50.760 if and when they ran it through the private lab.

00:51:52.880 We don't know whether somebody in Kohlberger's family

00:51:55.120 had given DNA, had uploaded DNA.

00:51:56.940 We just don't know the answer to that yet.

00:51:58.720 We are told that they collected a sample of garbage

00:52:03.200 outside of Brian Kohlberger's father's home.

00:52:06.700 He went back and stayed with his mother and father

00:52:09.080 from December 15th forward to the day of his arrest,

00:52:12.120 December 30th after his cross-country tour with his dad. I mean, ride home. By the way,

00:52:18.420 latest reporting is that the FBI was tailing him as of that date, still denying that they were

00:52:23.260 behind those two traffic stops in Indiana. But the FBI now, CBS reporting, was tailing him and

00:52:29.840 was tailing him via the E-ZPass. And they said fixed wing aircraft. So it's possible there was

00:52:36.540 an aircraft following him. Fixed wing would mean not a helicopter and through other means. So

00:52:44.440 they were onto him by December 15th, according to this report. So they go to the dad's house

00:52:49.440 and they say that they got the garbage outside of the Kohlberger house and that there was a match

00:52:55.140 to the dad. In other words, they had DNA. They compared it with the DNA from the knife

00:53:02.060 sheath button. And what they were able to tell was with 99.9996 accuracy, this DNA on this knife

00:53:12.940 sheath belongs to the father of the killer. Do I have that right?

00:53:19.680 Right. And so this is pretty common when investigative genetic genealogy has pointed

00:53:24.880 law enforcement toward a certain individual or family. And they'll do what's called a trash pull.

00:53:30.240 If they can't just follow that person and pick something up that they dropped, then they'll typically resort to waiting for that person to put their trash out on the curb.

00:53:38.700 And most states allow this.

00:53:40.360 It's considered abandoned at that point.

00:53:42.640 And then they go through the trash and try to find an item that might have DNA on it.

00:53:47.520 But when it's a home like this, a household where there's multiple people, they don't know exactly whose DNA they're going to get.

00:53:53.660 So in this case, they found a male sample of DNA and tested it.

00:53:57.600 And it wasn't the suspects.

00:53:59.300 However, they were able to perform what is basically a standard paternity test comparison to the profile from the button on the sheath and determined that that individual's DNA from the trash was the father of the individual who left his DNA behind at the crime scene.

00:54:18.100 How certain do you think they'd be?

00:54:21.160 I mean, they're saying 99.99%.

00:54:22.340 Like, how solid is that?

00:54:24.720 Well, it's been accepted in courts for decades to establish paternity.

00:54:28.360 It is extremely confident, as we saw by the number, 99.999, 8%.

00:54:35.240 So that means that there's basically no one else on earth that could be the father of that individual.

00:54:43.420 Okay, so the real challenge for the defense lawyers is to say, I mean, they will try to say, wrong, it wasn't him, you messed it up, you did something wrong at the lab, your lab procedures are faulty.

00:54:55.240 But the best line of argument is probably, we don't know how that got there.

00:55:00.360 Now, by this point, that would become irrelevant because they would have collected his DNA upon

00:55:05.080 arrest and done the direct comparison, the one-to-one against that court admissible

00:55:10.760 genetic profile that is the one they originally compared against the law enforcement databases.

00:55:16.200 Once they got the one-to-one match, the paternity match wouldn't matter anymore,

00:55:20.120 or any genetic genealogy that was done previously would all become irrelevant

00:55:24.560 because they'd have that one-to-one match.

00:55:27.160 And that's when we hear those numbers

00:55:28.500 like one in 300 trillion chance

00:55:31.420 that it's anyone else in the world.

00:55:34.260 And then still, my comment stands out

00:55:36.380 because the defense lawyers would be faced with saying,

00:55:38.580 well, that DNA, first of all, your testing stinks.

00:55:42.800 They'll attack the testing.

00:55:44.200 Remember OJ, they'll still attack it.

00:55:46.240 Barry Sheck, all that.

00:55:48.680 But then they'll also just say,

00:55:50.040 even if it's correct, we don't know how that got there.

00:55:52.540 Maybe Brian Goldberger touched that knife.

00:55:54.560 in a store, that sheath in a store,

00:55:56.940 then the killer bought it, used gloves, never touched it.

00:55:59.660 It is interesting, like, this guy is a criminology student.

00:56:03.180 He may have been wearing gloves.

00:56:04.620 He may have been suspicious that somebody was telling him

00:56:07.560 and watched what he threw out in his,

00:56:11.560 because now that we know the FBI was on to him and following him,

00:56:14.200 I mean, they identified the car as of November 29th as his.

00:56:17.220 And from that point forward, who knows?

00:56:19.360 Maybe they were waiting for him to throw something away,

00:56:20.960 and he wasn't, wasn't until he got back home.

00:56:22.620 when there's one report, he moved the trash from his dad's house over to the neighbor's.

00:56:26.600 Right. Right. Yeah. And I'd want to circle back around to something when we talked about whether

00:56:32.120 there was any other DNA left behind. When I first learned he was a criminology student,

00:56:36.480 I thought he would have suited up like Dexter, you know, to make sure he didn't leave any DNA

00:56:40.520 behind. But we know from the eyewitness, the roommate DM statement that she was able to see

00:56:46.560 at least his eyebrows. And she said he had bushy eyebrows, which means he didn't cover them.

00:56:51.260 And the mask that she has described is, like you said, just one we would wear for COVID.

00:56:56.620 It doesn't sound like he had his whole head covered.

00:56:59.680 Now, there's quotes going around that I said his head wasn't covered.

00:57:02.960 I didn't say that.

00:57:03.880 I just said if he didn't cover his eyebrows, maybe he didn't cover his hair.

00:57:08.780 And if he didn't, you know, it's very likely he left a hair behind.

00:57:13.260 Even an eyebrow hair could have been left behind.

00:57:16.000 Is it likely?

00:57:16.680 How likely is that?

00:57:17.980 Like, are the eyebrows, are they falling out all the time?

00:57:21.020 Yeah.

00:57:21.400 I mean, we lose hair all the time, all the time.

00:57:24.040 And we've even seen one single hair from someone's leg be able to be traced back.

00:57:30.120 And that is really because of advanced technology.

00:57:33.000 It used to be that you couldn't use hair for this type of purpose.

00:57:36.100 But only in the last couple of years have we been able to do so.

00:57:39.840 I've actually helped identify two different killers.

00:57:40.840 Does it have to have the root on it?

00:57:42.520 You know, does it have to be pulled out by the root?

00:57:44.920 No, thanks to the brilliant Dr. Ed Green from UC Santa Cruz,

00:57:49.160 it doesn't have to have the root anymore. That's what's so exciting. And it's opened up a lot more

00:57:53.800 cases for us to work. I was able to help identify the killer of a kindergartner using rootless hair

00:58:01.020 and also another murder that hasn't been announced yet. And so I've been able to use just a single

00:58:07.800 hair thanks to Dr. Ed Green's amazing technology. Their lab is the one that is processing that and

00:58:15.060 creating that profile for me to use. So without these brilliant scientists, we wouldn't be able

00:58:20.060 to even do what I do. Have you ever seen a murder, Cece, that's this up close and violent

00:58:26.100 at which there was no DNA left behind? No, and that's why I was opining early on. I just couldn't

00:58:32.760 imagine him not leaving DNA behind because it's such a violent crime scene. He stabbed four people

00:58:39.240 multiple times and the chances of either the knife not slipping and cutting him or one of

00:58:45.760 those victims fighting back and potentially getting his DNA under their fingernails or just

00:58:50.700 dropping a single hair seems highly unlikely to me. So I guess time will tell, but I think it's

00:58:57.780 something that people need to think about. If you are considering perpetrating this type of

00:59:03.680 intimate, violent crime, you will leave DNA behind, no matter how hard you try. I mean,

00:59:09.460 Brian was clearly educated about this, and yet he still left his DNA behind. Now, I will say people

00:59:16.180 are talking about how smart he was. I don't think he was the sharpest tool in the shed. It does not

00:59:20.020 sound like he planned this out nearly as well as we would expect from a PhD student in criminology.

00:59:27.280 But, you know, it's just virtually impossible not to leave your DNA behind in this type of frenzied

00:59:33.580 very intimate violent attack. Hmm. You know, there's speculation online that he posted

00:59:39.900 under different names commenting on this crime. And we don't know that it was him. But there is

00:59:48.140 one posting under this suspected name, again, unconfirmed, in which he talks about the sheath

00:59:54.720 of the knife. Trying to find it here. It's by somebody named Inside Looking. And the post

01:00:00.500 under that guy's name. It was all about the Idaho murders, this Facebook group where they were

01:00:06.420 discussing it. And one of the many things he posted, this inside looking, was of the evidence

01:00:12.360 release. Sorry, Papa Rogers. There's a couple of different ones. Inside looking was one of them.

01:00:16.940 In any event, they post, of the evidence released, the murder weapon has been consistent as a large

01:00:22.920 fixed blade knife. This leads me to believe they found the sheath. My God, that's just, I mean,

01:00:31.640 my God, like who, that doesn't lead anyone other than the killer to believe that. Like who would

01:00:37.880 go there? So I've been a member of that group from early days. I've been following this case

01:00:42.900 from, I think the very first day it happened or the day we found out about it. I don't know what

01:00:49.180 to think about that. You know, I mean, there's a lot of speculation, but that was something that

01:00:54.240 really does make it seem like this person had some inside information, or it was just a really

01:00:59.880 good guess. I've read both sides of the argument. Who would say they found the sheath, right? You'd

01:01:04.720 say they looked at the wounds and determined that. I mean, that's a, that's a. I'm sort of

01:01:11.540 on the side that it very possibly was him, but you know, like I said, it's all speculation,

01:01:17.680 But I'm well for us. Right. But the law enforcement knows they know by now whether that's him because now that's a good point. I'm sure they have a search warrant for his home in Washington state where he was living and going to school. And now that's been sealed. They're not allowing us access to it for now, though they say in March we may get it.

01:01:33.700 Um, they've, they've searched all of this. They're going to have record. You can't keep that stuff

01:01:38.180 a secret. So they'll know. And that would be great evidence too. You mentioned, um, you know,

01:01:43.620 the victims were likely to fight there. They, they say there were defensive wounds

01:01:46.640 on the victims. So they did, they did fight, you know, that's what's one of the things that's so

01:01:51.100 crazy about it is then why didn't anybody hear anything? Where were the screams? You know,

01:01:55.120 why weren't they, you know, just the, they have the one roommate who lived, who wasn't attacked

01:02:00.080 saying, I heard what sounded like crying coming from one of the rooms, but crying is not exactly

01:02:06.160 consistent with being brutally stabbed to death next to either your boyfriend or your friend.

01:02:12.300 So many questions still to be answered, but those defensive wounds could prove very important on

01:02:16.720 the DNA front. Right. I agree. I think when you're fighting for your life, you're conserving your

01:02:23.600 energy. Possibly they didn't scream. Maybe they were just focused on trying to survive.

01:02:30.080 and focused on trying to fight him off without yelling or something that would have been heard

01:02:35.000 by the roommates. God, so horrific to think about. They, just on Friday, right, this crime

01:02:43.960 happened in November 13th. The arrest was December 30th. Here we are, July 12th is today,

01:02:50.860 or January 12th. They were seen just this past Friday, the 6th, taking two bloody mattresses

01:02:58.540 out of the crime scene, along with a bed frame and a box, which is strange to me. I don't know

01:03:05.580 why the bloody mattresses were still there. I'm sure they've done some analysis on them prior to

01:03:10.400 now, but in your experience of DNA analysis, like how would it be collected? Would they have done

01:03:15.840 like a scraping of the mattress on, let's say day one, and then maybe this is a more in-depth look,

01:03:22.100 or what do you make of that? Yeah, I thought it was very odd as well, and particularly since the

01:03:27.300 judge had, I thought, frozen the crime scene until February 1st, I believe. So it must have been

01:03:33.880 either the defense or the prosecution taking that away. Some people were saying maybe it was the

01:03:39.960 roommates, the surviving roommates' bed, but I think you could clearly see that there was a blood

01:03:45.460 stain on one of those mattresses. I think they would have swabbed it. Now, of course, there were

01:03:50.560 sheets, right? They would have collected the sheets first and maybe a mattress pad. They would

01:03:54.380 swabbed it. Sometimes they'll cut things out. I don't know if they would do that on a mattress or

01:03:59.420 not, but they are probably putting that mattress into storage for future testing or maybe even to

01:04:06.160 use in the courtroom. So we've been very focused on finding his DNA at the crime scene, but there's

01:04:13.420 another lane here, which is finding the victim's DNA on anything related to him. What do you think

01:04:22.200 the odds are of that, right? Understanding, okay, he covered up, but like, I'm sorry, he's not

01:04:27.940 superhuman. There would be blood on his clothes. There would be. We don't know what he did with

01:04:32.040 the clothes. We know they're going to analyze the route he took home, which is reportedly

01:04:35.660 a little odd. It's not this straight direct line back to his apartment. I'm sure they've poured

01:04:40.480 over every inch of it looking for anything that's been discarded, but they seized his car, right?

01:04:46.660 They're going to be tearing that.

01:04:48.340 What are the odds, Cece, in your experience of finding the victim's DNA someplace around

01:04:54.940 him if he, in fact, committed this crime?

01:04:57.200 I think it's extremely high.

01:04:58.980 Like you've pointed out, he would have had to have been covered in their DNA. 0.90

01:05:03.280 And then he must have gotten in that car still in those clothes. 0.78

01:05:07.000 I don't think he stripped down there on that street.

01:05:09.720 And so you cannot clean that completely out of a car, even though we know he took great

01:05:15.280 effort cleaning that car based on reports, there still would be DNA left behind, very likely blood,

01:05:21.940 maybe hair, and maybe even transferred into his home, right? When he went into his home,

01:05:28.360 he might've brought some of that with him as well. So I think there's a good chance they'll

01:05:33.040 be able to tie the victims, one or more of the victims' DNA to his property, his car or his home.

01:05:40.840 That's key right there.

01:05:42.000 Even if he was meticulous, other than leaving the knife sheath behind at the crime scene,

01:05:48.680 there's no—there's just—four people were murdered up close by a knife.

01:05:53.980 There's no way he wouldn't have their DNA on him.

01:05:56.480 And now that we have our suspect, you know, most of that battle is just knowing whose car to search,

01:06:03.640 whose apartment to search, whose computer to search. 0.66

01:06:05.760 They figured that out thanks to the button and thanks to the surveillance of the white

01:06:10.220 Hyundai Elantra.

01:06:11.220 So that's very promising for law enforcement.

01:06:13.740 I wanted to ask you, would this case have looked very different to you had it happened

01:06:20.580 15, 20 years ago?

01:06:23.420 Yes.

01:06:23.720 Some of the detectives I've worked with have told me that they don't need me to perform

01:06:29.060 investigative genetic genealogy on many of their cases, their active cases, because they

01:06:34.200 have so much technological evidence. They have cell phone data. They have computer data. They

01:06:40.220 have GPS data. And so that is going to be a huge part of this case. And like, we don't know, of

01:06:48.640 course, if the car was what first led them to identify him or the genetic genealogy, but also

01:06:55.040 just having computerized systems where you can search cars, you know, who owns cars. When we go

01:07:00.800 back to the cold cases, we often are not able to find that information. It just doesn't exist.

01:07:06.860 It didn't make it into the digital age. And so the whole method of crime solving, of investigation,

01:07:13.660 has advanced to such a degree that it's already extremely difficult to get away with a crime like

01:07:19.300 this, even without the addition of investigative genetic genealogy. I grew up in the 70s like you.

01:07:26.480 I remember being terrified of Son of Sam, who was in the news. That case terrified me because

01:07:32.960 my Nana lived in the New York City area. It was all over the news. Just, you never know what's

01:07:37.680 seeping into your child's head, you know, just based on the news coverage. Of course, there was

01:07:42.740 Ted Bundy. There was a Hillside Strangler. I remember Night Stalker Richard Ramirez. He was

01:07:49.140 in my area. Yes. And we haven't even covered the big ones like BTK and Zodiac. I've heard you say

01:07:58.420 you don't think we can have a serial killer anymore. Like that's the odds of that happening

01:08:02.940 now are next to nil. So why? Well, first of all, what we just talked about, the technological

01:08:09.200 evidence. But if even that fails, we always will have investigative genetic genealogy going forward

01:08:15.820 now. And so unless someone is killing people from a distance with a gun, and even then we might be

01:08:22.000 able to- DC snipers. DC snipers. I've been thinking about them this whole conversation

01:08:25.480 that you get nowhere. I mean, I'm not recommending how people commit murder, but

01:08:28.580 they got nowhere near their victims. It's one of the reasons why it was so hard to detect who it

01:08:32.700 was. Well, then they better wear gloves when they handle the bullets because you can pull DNA from

01:08:38.540 bullet casing as well. And so it's just going to be virtually impossible to be the type of serial

01:08:45.780 killer and certainly a serial rapist that is perpetrating these very intimate, up-close

01:08:52.080 and personal crimes, because you will leave your DNA behind. And if you do, we will identify you, 0.96

01:08:57.980 even if it takes months or years. I recently worked the Faith Hedgepeth case out of Chapel

01:09:05.020 Hill, North Carolina. It took us three years to identify the DNA contributor, her killer,

01:09:11.840 or alleged killer, because he was born in Guatemala. And so even those cases, we will get 0.99

01:09:19.200 there. It just takes additional time. And as the databases grow, it's going to get more efficient

01:09:24.840 and quicker and quicker as time goes on. And we're getting better at what we're doing every day as

01:09:29.840 well. And so that's why I don't think that we will have serial killers. There won't be Ted Bundy's

01:09:36.600 or Golden State Killers or Zodiac, who's still unidentified 50 years later,

01:09:41.940 because of investigative genetic genealogy.

01:09:45.960 This is a good incentive for people to actually upload their DNA results if you're at all so

01:09:51.820 inclined. I understand a lot of people aren't, but if you are inclined, do it. And do it at

01:09:56.500 GEDmatch, too. Take your results from these other private companies and do it. Not saying you're a

01:10:01.020 serial killer or you're a family member, but there could be the Loretta Swit. She's not a

01:10:06.540 you're a serial killer either. You could have the sixth cousin who you have no love for or

01:10:11.920 connection, real connection to, who's done something wrong. And wouldn't it be nice to

01:10:15.300 have helped law enforcement nab that person? It's one of the reasons why your name came up

01:10:22.840 in discussing the JonBenet Ramsey case. We had Jon Ramsey on the show not long ago.

01:10:28.480 And he's like, I'm 78 years old. I don't have much time to see this case solved. And he said,

01:10:35.560 Cece, he wants someone like you to analyze what they say is a teeny tiny bit of DNA that is left

01:10:45.940 in that case. And I don't know why there's not more because apparently they have JonBenet's

01:10:51.840 pajamas. They have her underwear. They have the implement used to strangle poor JonBenet

01:10:59.520 and um the instrument and um it's been tested repeatedly and there's been no match and i guess

01:11:06.460 what he's being told is basically there's only one more test in here like if we do this again

01:11:13.260 and we don't get the guy it's done there's so little left so just to update our viewers

01:11:17.880 he wants the governor of colorado to allow him as the child's father who's been ruled out as a

01:11:26.120 suspect by the prosecutor, to take this DNA and give it to somebody like you, to take it to a

01:11:31.080 private lab that is the best of the best. And this seems to make so much sense to me, but he wasn't

01:11:37.160 able to get the governor, Governor Polis, to even respond to him. He told us this right before

01:11:42.840 Christmas when he came on. So during that interview, he told us, this is an update for

01:11:47.720 our viewers, Cece, he told us about a letter that he wrote to the Colorado governor, Jared Polis,

01:11:51.900 And he had written it like two months earlier, October.

01:11:54.280 He asked him for a face-to-face meeting

01:11:56.180 because so far he'd been getting the stiff arm

01:11:57.780 from the governor, from the state law enforcement.

01:12:00.260 They created this sort of,

01:12:01.420 oh, we're going to refer to our cold case unit.

01:12:03.020 And he was like, that's a PRCYA cover.

01:12:06.500 That's not real.

01:12:07.700 And he wanted to tell the governor personally

01:12:09.640 the different steps he wants taken in the investigation,

01:12:12.200 including this new DNA testing with somebody like you.

01:12:15.520 So it would cost the state nothing.

01:12:17.260 He said he and his supporters would pay for it.

01:12:19.560 Well, John came out and he told us

01:12:21.120 the governor never even did him the courtesy of responding to him. I mean, how do you not respond

01:12:25.980 to this grieving dad? After the interview, we promised John Ramsey that we and our viewers

01:12:32.400 were going to reach out to the governor and demand answers. Why are you ignoring this man?

01:12:37.160 Why are you ignoring John Ramsey and his concerns? No response for us either. We told our listeners

01:12:42.880 and our viewers to do it. They did as well. Reached out to the governor's office directly,

01:12:46.660 demanding action on behalf of John Ramsey.

01:12:48.980 Respond to the man, do something.

01:12:50.780 Now, we don't know what exactly flipped that switch,

01:12:54.080 but John just told us he's heard back from the governor

01:12:56.740 after two months of being ignored.

01:12:58.560 And now the governor has asked him, John Ramsey,

01:13:01.740 to contact the Colorado Director of Public Safety.

01:13:03.780 And he's done that.

01:13:04.860 No face-to-face meeting yet,

01:13:06.200 but John is telling us he now feels encouraged

01:13:08.720 by the response.

01:13:10.200 So yay.

01:13:11.180 That's great.

01:13:11.900 Thank you to all of our viewers and our listeners

01:13:13.080 for helping and amping up the pressure.

01:13:16.040 And now, Cece, what we need to happen is for someone like you, ideally you, to get this evidence analyzed.

01:13:24.020 So how high are the risks given how little DNA there is?

01:13:28.480 Just backtracking a little, I don't know if you remember, but you asked me almost five years ago what case I'd like to work.

01:13:34.980 And I mentioned Jean Benet.

01:13:37.180 And I have received emails or messages on social media every single day since that time asking me to work this case.

01:13:44.680 I certainly would love to have the opportunity to do so, but I doubt very much that they would

01:13:50.600 let me work it. I would expect maybe the FBI will work it if anyone is allowed to do so.

01:13:57.120 As far as the risks, yeah, once you use up that DNA, that's the end. So you have to make sure

01:14:03.520 that it's being sent to a well-tested team, a lab that has been able to create profiles,

01:14:12.380 genetic genealogy profiles from tiny amounts of degraded DNA, and that has scientists that are

01:14:18.880 really highly skilled at working with that degraded DNA. We can assume it's degraded

01:14:24.020 after all these years. With touch DNA, which I think that's what this is in this case,

01:14:29.680 my understanding, again, you just have a tiny bit of skin cells and it can be very quickly consumed.

01:14:37.240 So I understand Boulder Police's hesitation to use up that last little bit because you never know what's coming around the corner. Nobody predicted investigative genetic genealogy outside of our little, you know, community.

01:14:52.480 And so I, you know, I always am hesitant to second guess law enforcement.

01:14:58.040 I've been involved in some pretty high profile cases where people were out there criticizing

01:15:03.580 law enforcement and had no idea what was going on behind the scenes.

01:15:07.980 And I wasn't like Idaho.

01:15:09.720 Yeah, just like Idaho.

01:15:11.460 That's exactly right.

01:15:12.360 Now, in that case, I didn't have inside information, but I strongly suspected they were trying

01:15:16.900 investigative genetic genealogy.

01:15:18.700 But there's been other cases where they've never even released that they did use that tool. And, you know, I've had to keep quiet and listen, watch all these people criticizing law enforcement for years. It happened in the Chapel Hill case and Faith Hedgepest case as well. I had to bite my tongue.

01:15:36.000 And so you just don't know what they are doing behind the scenes and what their reasoning

01:15:40.240 is.

01:15:41.200 And so I really do hesitate to second guess, like I said, but I think it is the time to

01:15:48.180 go ahead and do it.

01:15:49.200 They can get a whole genome sequence done on that DNA if it's viable, meaning you could

01:15:55.320 not just look at the 700,000 markers that we use for genetic genealogy, but they could

01:16:01.420 look at the entire genome and then have all of that information for the future. And I think

01:16:07.160 that's probably the best bet in this case. There's two different ways you can do it.

01:16:10.900 One is called microarray, where you just look at those 700, 800,000 genetic markers that the

01:16:16.920 direct-to-consumer DNA testing companies also use. Or you can do this whole genome sequence,

01:16:22.300 where you get every bit of the genome information that is available in that sample.

01:16:27.600 You get that from touch, from touch DNA?

01:16:29.320 Yes, absolutely. You know, about 10% of the cases that we've helped solve or been able to create profiles for have been touch DNA. We published a paper in 2019 talking about that. And so people in this case are saying, oh, it's so new if they use touch DNA for genetic genealogy, but it's actually not. We've been doing it since 2018. So it's totally doable.

01:16:54.560 And I think, you know, John's getting older, as he keeps pointing out, and now is the time.

01:17:00.020 But I do understand their hesitation.

01:17:02.040 It is risky.

01:17:03.000 Could you get, when you say you can get the whole genome, would that allow you to do both

01:17:06.580 lanes of investigative work you were telling us about, like figure out the family tree

01:17:10.740 potentially and at a minimum get, this is what the person is likely to look like.

01:17:16.320 This is what the hair color probably is.

01:17:18.000 You could do both of those off the same tiny cells.

01:17:20.540 Yes.

01:17:20.800 Yes. And so that's one thing that's interesting about Parabon is they were doing this phenotyping

01:17:25.320 before genetic genealogy was a thing for law enforcement. And the files that they created

01:17:30.680 for that are exactly the files that we use for genetic genealogy, which is why when I joined

01:17:36.160 forces with them, I had about a hundred cases right off the bat because they had already created

01:17:41.540 those files. They'd already gone through the lab process. And all we had to do was get permission

01:17:45.960 to upload those to GEDmatch.

01:17:48.060 And so, yes, it absolutely has the same information in there

01:17:52.340 that you would need to predict eye color, hair color, ancestry.

01:17:56.940 It is a really powerful amount of information.

01:18:02.040 Cece, am I crazy?

01:18:03.580 This may have been a different company,

01:18:05.020 but I feel like when I was at NBC,

01:18:06.500 Andrea Canning had this done, like, on herself, you know?

01:18:11.280 Like, and, and there was a, like, do you guys do a, a sketch, you know, off of the, the info you get back?

01:18:19.200 I distinctly remember seeing a sketch of Andrea.

01:18:21.620 I think that was pretty good.

01:18:22.920 That was before I was part of the company, but I think you're right.

01:18:25.740 I do remember seeing that on their site.

01:18:28.440 So, I mean, imagine it.

01:18:29.540 We could potentially get a picture of the JonBenet killer pretty quickly if there's enough cells on this thing.

01:18:35.680 That's how quickly things have advanced in the DNA line.

01:18:39.160 And there's, I mean, that case captured the attention of the nation.

01:18:42.200 Everybody would like to see whoever did that brought to justice.

01:18:45.040 Okay, there's more because we've got to talk about this case out of Pennsylvania.

01:18:50.360 This is right where my husband's from.

01:18:52.360 So he was very interested in this as well.

01:18:54.420 Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

01:18:55.440 And wait until you hear how CeCe Moore solved this case. 0.94

01:19:00.020 One a week. 0.98

01:19:00.960 She's knocking out, you guys. 0.97

01:19:02.220 She stays with us for our last segment.

01:19:04.180 Don't go away.

01:19:09.160 So, Cece, we've got to talk about this case in Pennsylvania.

01:19:14.380 You recently solved this case as of July of 2022.

01:19:19.300 Let's go back before that, though, to 1975, when the murder of then-19-year-old Lindy Sue Beachler took place.

01:19:28.260 She was stabbed to death 19 times in her apartment on December 5th, 1975.

01:19:35.080 She was found lying on her back with a knife sticking out of her neck.

01:19:39.680 Decades went by without an arrest in the gruesome crime.

01:19:44.060 They had no idea.

01:19:45.680 Police were not able to solve this.

01:19:47.960 I understand it happened in Pennsylvania.

01:19:50.640 And it was just a cold case.

01:19:53.680 So you got involved in this.

01:19:56.660 How did you get involved in this all these years later?

01:19:58.440 Well, Lancaster Police had worked with Parabon before I even joined forces with them to create this investigative genetic genealogy service. So they had an established relationship with them. So when I came on board, they asked Lancaster Police if we could perform genetic genealogy first on the Christy Mirak case, which they had done a phenotype for.

01:20:21.780 And so we uploaded that to GEDmatch.

01:20:24.980 And on that case, right away, we had good matches for me to work with.

01:20:29.220 Now, when I became really familiar with that case, I learned that Christy's brother and

01:20:34.520 Lindy Sue's brother had taken out billboards together asking for tips on their sisters.

01:20:40.840 And so I was able to help law enforcement solve Christy Murek's case way back in 2018.

01:20:46.260 It was one of my very first ones.

01:20:48.100 But I felt like Lindy Sue's case was hanging over my head for years because I really felt that they both needed to be solved. They were sort of like sister cases to me, even though they were so many years apart. And I wanted Lindy Sue's family and brother to have those answers as well, like Christy's family finally did.

01:21:08.740 But when we performed the analysis on that crime scene DNA and uploaded it to GEDmatch, there were no good matches. They were all very, very, very distant. So we recommended they upload to Family Tree DNA as well, the second database. Again, no good matches. And I was just so disappointed because I so desperately wanted to help law enforcement identify her killer as well.

01:21:36.720 Okay, so then what'd you do?

01:21:38.740 Well, because we didn't have any close matches. So the closest match we had only shared

01:21:46.200 30 centimorgans. 30 centimorgans can be a false match even. That's so distant. It could be a 10th

01:21:53.840 cousin. But I was determined to try to help on this case. So just behind the scenes, without

01:22:00.500 even telling the law enforcement agency I was doing it, I started building trees of these

01:22:06.000 really distant matches. And instead of going back into the 1600s and I didn't expect I'd find

01:22:15.600 common ancestors because of the distance, but I did find that they were all converging on this

01:22:23.800 small town in Southern Italy. And so that was really interesting to me because it was clear

01:22:29.800 that the person who left their DNA behind on Lindy Sue, so her killer, her alleged killer at this

01:22:37.000 point, had all of his ancestral roots go back to this one small area in South Italy. So that's

01:22:45.740 pretty specific. So I started researching the migration history of Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

01:22:52.200 Where did the people come from? Okay, Italy. I found that there was a club, Sons of Italy,

01:23:00.300 and I started looking through their membership cards, which are digitized online, thankfully.

01:23:05.720 And I found that most of the people, most of the Italians who came to Lancaster

01:23:11.240 came from this small town called Gasparina. Well, Gasparina is the town in Italy that the

01:23:18.240 trees were going back to. Aha. So that meant that Lindy's killer likely had roots in Lancaster

01:23:27.340 going back. This wasn't someone who just was passing through. This is somebody whose family

01:23:32.380 had been in Lancaster for probably a couple generations and had come directly from Gasparina.

01:23:38.800 And he was going to be fully Italian with full ancestry from there based on the family trees

01:23:44.720 as well as the ancestry predictions we were able to create.

01:23:49.320 And so I needed to find someone who had four grandparents from Gasparina,

01:23:54.860 all eight great-grandparents from either there or close by in that region

01:23:59.880 that had come to Lancaster and settled there.

01:24:03.120 And so I went through all of those cards and then started building the family trees

01:24:09.780 for each of the men.

01:24:11.420 That's who was in that club, men.

01:24:13.260 each of those men who came to Lancaster I built their trees forward to see who did they marry

01:24:20.060 and then I would build their trees backward to see if they also had ancestry exclusively from

01:24:26.500 Gasparina or nearby and so I needed to find somebody whose whose ancestors intermarried

01:24:33.020 with people from their hometown and we also had done a snapshot phenotype in that case and he had

01:24:38.980 a little bit unique traits. And I'm not sure I can go into that right now, but he had, for Southern

01:24:45.300 Italian, he had sort of unusual physical traits. And so I was able to look at that as well. And

01:24:52.860 it wasn't that many people who came to Lancaster from that town. I mean, there was a fair amount,

01:24:59.880 but it was a very defined migration route. And it was a small percent of the overall population.

01:25:05.740 So I figured if there was only, you know, a few hundred who came over, then that was doable.

01:25:13.860 It was just going to take time. 0.71

01:25:15.760 Anyone who intermarried with someone from a different population group, their descendants were out.

01:25:20.860 So I just kept building these trees and seeing who would fit.

01:25:26.300 And then as I was doing that, each of those descendants who would be a candidate, I started doing newspaper searches on them.

01:25:34.680 and one of them turned out had the same address as Lindy.

01:25:41.220 I found a, I think it was an engagement announcement

01:25:43.800 in the newspaper and I was just blown away.

01:25:47.920 What are the chances of doing this for months and months,

01:25:51.160 years actually, of behind the scenes building these trees

01:25:56.360 and it leading right to the same apartment building

01:25:59.600 that Lindy was killed in?

01:26:01.900 Oh my God.

01:26:03.380 so then this is chilling so then you got to close the loop got to figure out now you have a name

01:26:11.480 I mean that's the big thing you now you have a name who you think could potentially be the guy

01:26:16.180 what step what's the next step there's a couple other things about him that were compelling but

01:26:21.520 because this is still an active case I won't go into those but I felt pretty confident but I

01:26:27.640 didn't have any solid evidence like I normally have. Normally, I can connect my person of

01:26:34.240 interest to multiple matches through common ancestors, but I couldn't connect any of these

01:26:39.900 people directly to his family tree, just to that hometown of Gasparina. So it was really nerve

01:26:45.920 wracking, but I still felt like it was a good enough lead to pass it on. And so we reached out

01:26:51.880 to Lancaster police and let them know that I'd been working on this, which they weren't even aware

01:26:55.980 of and set up a meeting. And I shared his name with them. At that point, it's just a tip. It's

01:27:03.320 a lead generator. No one's going to get arrested based on what I say. So they have to perform

01:27:08.220 their full investigation on this individual, just like they would have had to do on Brian

01:27:12.920 Kohlberger if that's how he was identified. This is not evidence that's going to be used

01:27:17.660 against anyone in a court of law. So they started looking into this individual and they eventually

01:27:23.620 collected surreptitious DNA, just like they did in the Idaho case, and they tested that against

01:27:30.260 their original court admissible genetic profile. That's the one that is used for evidence.

01:27:36.740 They can't arrest somebody until they've done that or gotten a close family member,

01:27:40.700 like they did with Brian's father. In this case, they got DNA directly from the suspect or the

01:27:47.560 person of interest, and he became a suspect because they got that one-to-one exact match,

01:27:52.980 which when they told me was huge because this was a novel technique that I had just created.

01:28:01.600 And there was, it was nerve wracking, right? If I can't even connect one match to someone's family

01:28:07.180 tree, I feel very hesitant to point them out to law enforcement. Like I said earlier, I don't

01:28:12.880 want to send them after innocent people, but there was just certain things, circumstantial things

01:28:18.160 about him and about his life that made it too compelling not to pass it on.

01:28:24.880 So when they told me it was a match, it was just tremendous.

01:28:29.040 So they, according to what I read, they found him in the airport, in the Philadelphia airport.

01:28:36.720 And I think that's where they got his, February, 2022, they recovered a coffee cup he used and

01:28:42.780 threw away at the Philadelphia International Airport.

01:28:45.720 Labs later confirmed the DNA on his coffee cup matched the DNA from the semen on Lindy

01:28:51.240 Sue's underwear.

01:28:52.780 All these years later, again, the crime happened in 1975.

01:28:56.720 They also found that DNA in blood left on her pantyhose was consistent with the semen

01:29:05.080 and so on.

01:29:06.560 Like they were matching it on a couple of fronts.

01:29:08.780 Now, this man's name is David Sinopoli.

01:29:14.060 He's been arrested.

01:29:15.960 He has pleaded not guilty.

01:29:18.920 But this guy did apparently live in her apartment building at the time in 1975.

01:29:23.720 He would have been, I think, 18 by my calculation.

01:29:26.620 He's now 68 years old.

01:29:28.640 This guy went on, as far as we can tell, to lead a relatively normal life.

01:29:35.580 I mean, it's kind of crazy, right?

01:29:38.520 Cece, do you know anything about what he did over those next 50 years?

01:29:41.160 Oh, yeah.

01:29:41.580 I did a lot of research, as I always do, when I have identified a potential person of interest.

01:29:46.920 I dig through social media, through newspaper articles, through the traditional genealogical

01:29:54.740 records.

01:29:55.480 I use all types of different resources to learn about someone before I turn their name

01:30:00.440 over.

01:30:01.060 I write a really complete report with a lot of information for law enforcement in my

01:30:05.460 cases.

01:30:06.140 So he got married?

01:30:08.400 He had kids?

01:30:08.800 He had three kids?

01:30:09.620 But at the same time that Lindy was a newlywed, they both were.

01:30:13.340 Oh, my gosh.

01:30:14.880 I mean, it's just so creepy to think that if this is true, this guy committed a heinous, brutal murder and then went on to live with the secret for 50 years, probably always wondering, especially as DNA techniques got more developed, right?

01:30:33.820 Yeah, it definitely seems like we're identifying a new type of criminal.

01:30:39.620 with investigative genetic genealogy, we see so many of these cases where this individual seems

01:30:45.540 to have perpetrated one really horrible, violent crime and then gone on with their lives. And

01:30:52.220 that's why they're cold cases, right? They were never arrested for another crime. They never got

01:30:56.020 their DNA in the system. These are people that were never on law enforcement's radar at all.

01:31:01.220 So, you know, who knows what else these individuals may have done, but it certainly appears

01:31:05.780 that we've identified many of these types of individuals

01:31:09.620 that did something like this once

01:31:11.500 and then faded back into society

01:31:13.500 and lived what appeared to be a normal life.

01:31:16.000 They say his friends were shocked.

01:31:17.820 I mean, his family's shocked.

01:31:18.800 They can't believe it.

01:31:19.620 But I mean, the truth is DNA doesn't lie.

01:31:22.740 Well, especially when it's firm on a rape homicide victim.

01:31:27.980 I do just want to make one more point,

01:31:29.300 which is that the DA has actually allowed me

01:31:31.720 to speak about this case.

01:31:33.400 Normally, I wouldn't be doing so

01:31:34.900 when it's still working its way through the court system.

01:31:37.320 But the DA specifically asked me

01:31:39.120 to speak at the press conference and explain my methods.

01:31:43.180 And so I'm not speaking out of turn.

01:31:45.540 Got it.

01:31:47.240 This has been used by you to,

01:31:49.960 as I mentioned in the intro,

01:31:51.140 identify murder victims who,

01:31:53.740 you know, Jane Doe's, John Doe's,

01:31:56.080 giving closure to so many families

01:31:57.640 who just had their child disappear

01:31:59.440 and never knew what happened to them

01:32:01.420 and just assumed the worst.

01:32:02.520 But there's some closure in knowing

01:32:03.880 this is how they died. They were the victim of this person. Certain deaths tied to this killer

01:32:08.840 or that killer. I mean, it's upsetting, but I'm sure most families are relieved to be able to

01:32:14.480 bury their loved one and so on. Another important lane of what you're doing. And just for the

01:32:19.020 record, we went back and checked all the cases that you'd been working on when you came on and

01:32:24.240 we interviewed you on NBC. There was one case involving a little girl, April Tinsley, who'd been

01:32:30.120 murdered in December 2018. Again, this is after our interview. The man you helped identify

01:32:37.300 sentenced to 80 years in prison. There was another case. By the way, that was the first

01:32:41.540 conviction of somebody identified through investigative genetic genealogy.

01:32:46.340 Oh, wow. Another guy, this is in, let's see, this is in connection with a 20-year-old Jay Cook and

01:32:52.820 18-year-old Tanya Van Carlenburg in 1987. Canadian high school sweethearts visited

01:32:57.400 Seattle and were killed. You helped identify the accused killer, William Talbot. He had pleaded

01:33:03.180 not guilty at the time we interviewed, found guilty in June of 2019. And that was the first

01:33:09.020 jury trial to find someone guilty who was identified through IgG, investigative genetic genealogy. So

01:33:15.260 these are all big firsts. Yes. It's absolutely amazing. I mean, we talked about seven, six or

01:33:20.780 whatever cases, every single one, the person either pleaded guilty or was found guilty in a

01:33:26.640 court of law. So your track record's really good. Yeah. So in the time we have left 40 convictions

01:33:31.940 now, we have over 40 convictions in our cases. Some are lagging because of COVID. It took longer

01:33:37.640 to get these and we still have lots in the pipeline, but yeah, our track record and genetic

01:33:42.560 genealogies track record record. And this is really phenomenal. Pretty stellar. Um, where is

01:33:49.020 this going, Cece, right? Like 20 years ago, probably nobody could anticipate where we are

01:33:54.080 today. What do you think? Like, if you had to predict the future, where's this going?

01:33:58.460 I mean, if you had asked me a month or two ago, I would have said we will start working more

01:34:02.440 active cases. It'll start stopping criminals in their tracks, keeping serial killers from ever

01:34:07.440 developing. And here we see with Idaho exactly what I would have told you would happen, is what

01:34:13.320 is going to happen. And one of the reasons I've been out there talking about this Idaho case,

01:34:18.380 even though I was not involved in it, is because it is a fantastic example of what I've been

01:34:23.360 advocating for is using investigative genetic genealogy early in a crime, soon as they don't

01:34:28.880 get that hit in the law enforcement database, because it can save lives. And this is where we

01:34:34.040 can have the real impact on public safety. We can keep people from losing their lives and being

01:34:39.700 victimized. And we can really help law enforcement be more efficient with their investigations

01:34:45.500 instead of investigating something for years or decades and spending public funds on this

01:34:51.820 and involving innocent people in these investigations. We can probably even help

01:34:57.480 avoid wrongful convictions by keeping the focus off the innocent from the beginning,

01:35:02.980 because one of the real powers of investigative genetic genealogy is the ability to rule people

01:35:08.700 out. You know, for every one of these, we focus on the arrests, but I have ruled out dozens or

01:35:14.800 hundreds of persons of interest in all of these cases when I start working them. Many of those

01:35:20.020 have already been under suspicion for years or decades. I've heard from lots of people

01:35:24.360 thanking me for finally lifting that burden off of their shoulders. And so I think that's where

01:35:29.500 we're going, is when they don't, you know, when they run out of avenues, they tried all the

01:35:34.240 technological advances, and they still don't have this individual in their sights, they will turn

01:35:39.400 to investigative genetic genealogy now. It's another reminder, by the way, that when the police

01:35:45.240 process a crime scene, they ought to be dressed like in hazmat suits. Given this touch DNA,

01:35:52.560 they can't go anywhere near it without suiting up from head to toe to make sure that they don't

01:35:57.360 disturb anything. Think of it. I mean, it's like- You're right, because we have had some cases

01:36:02.380 that trace back to law enforcement officers or people that were involved in the case. And so

01:36:07.960 that's unfortunate when that happens. Yeah. And I'm sure that they're paying attention to latest

01:36:12.140 developments and realizing how critical that is more than ever to make sure they, they touch

01:36:17.140 nothing with their bare hands or, you know, their own DNA getting on a site, which is, as you point

01:36:21.580 out, is so easy for people to do. You can't, can't go in with exposed eyebrows. I mean, there's a lot

01:36:26.120 to think about. Cece Moore, you're a genius. You're a heroine. Thank you so much. Thank you

01:36:32.080 so much for your support. You are so kind and I'm so happy we got to speak again. Oh, likewise.

01:36:37.980 and saying a prayer that it works out between you

01:36:40.260 and the JonBenet-Ramsey investigation.

01:36:43.120 They need you.

01:36:44.100 All the best to you.

01:36:44.820 Thank you so much.

01:36:50.920 All right, full-time thoughts.

01:36:52.380 Craig, who stood out?

01:36:53.420 Brazil's lime cheesecake started bright, didn't let up.

01:36:55.900 Nah, for me, Italian cappuccino was the standout in the box.

01:36:58.980 But if we're talking decadent performance, that's all France.

01:37:01.800 Chocolate creme brulee had the richest finishes.

01:37:04.200 Canadian fireworks really showed up big, too.

01:37:06.000 And Mexico's Caramel Churro Ice Cap gave me chills.

01:37:09.740 We are, of course, talking about Tim's taste of the globe lineup.

01:37:12.640 New globally inspired Timbits and Ice Cap flavors available at Tim Hortons for a limited time.

01:37:17.120 Pick some up today and while you're at it, check out Footy Prime Daily.

01:37:22.400 The sun was setting behind the ranch-style home in Citrus Heights, a suburb in Sacramento County, California.

01:37:30.980 A Volvo and a fishing boat occupied the driveway.

01:37:33.460 the landscaping was impeccable. A nice house in an idyllic neighborhood. And on that April 2018

01:37:41.940 day, the police were there too. They were there to finally arrest a man named Joseph James D'Angelo

01:37:50.460 Jr., now known as the Golden State Killer. After four decades and advances in DNA technology,

01:37:58.620 investigators were finally able to identify the serial rapist and killer the grandfather who was

01:38:06.620 in the middle of cooking a roast that day was finally going to be held accountable for his

01:38:12.420 heinous acts former cold case investigator paul holes has been had been waiting for this day to

01:38:18.420 come for 24 years he was integral in cracking the golden state killer case and documents his

01:38:26.720 experience tracking down d'angelo in a new book just out called unmasked my life solving america's

01:38:34.620 cold cases and he is with us here today paul thank you so much for being here

01:38:39.920 thanks for having me megan uh this is such an amazing story and we owe you such a debt of

01:38:47.900 gratitude the nation does because you just never gave up just never gave up i know it's a team

01:38:54.200 for sure it was and that's that's nice and humble of you to say and it was a team effort i know

01:39:00.660 that's genuine but you were the person who just couldn't pull yourself away from this thing long

01:39:06.960 after other people were like you know it seems to have died off let's move on your family like

01:39:11.660 hey would love to spend more time with you you couldn't stop and it's to your credit because

01:39:19.000 even though when he was finally found he was 72 years old and we think had stopped the crime spree

01:39:25.520 by then we never would have known there's it's important to know and it gives us such insights

01:39:31.540 into why and how and how we can attack new cases differently and so on so before we kick it off i

01:39:37.700 just wanted to give you my own personal thanks and and express to the audience how much we should

01:39:41.880 appreciate what you and your colleagues did i appreciate the kind words thank you very much

01:39:47.140 Of course. OK, so let's go. So wait, you look like such a young man, but you've been at this for so long.

01:39:53.780 You can't be that young. Do you mind if I ask you how old you are?

01:39:56.920 I am. I am 54 years old.

01:39:59.440 Yes, you're a baby. That's very, very young.

01:40:03.280 You know, and I don't I don't know if you realize this, but you actually had a role at the end as we were closing in on D'Angelo.

01:40:10.740 So wait, I know we covered this case on NBC and we spoke with the genealogist.

01:40:16.320 And then it was like, then you guys caught him a month later after we did a big show on him.

01:40:22.080 And we put back on the show.

01:40:25.360 Yeah, I remember that.

01:40:26.100 I was on the show with Jane Carson and Debbie Domingo.

01:40:29.520 And I moved up my retirement date in order to fly out to New York to appear on the show.

01:40:35.340 And I had already sat in front of his house.

01:40:37.160 And later on that evening, I told these two victims, I think we're close.

01:40:41.360 And I'm looking at an Auburn cop.

01:40:43.440 And that was after talking to you that day.

01:40:45.820 Oh, my gosh.

01:40:46.800 That's that's really cool.

01:40:48.440 It's cool to just know he had any sort of a role.

01:40:50.940 I remember we were all so into the story and it was just so puzzling.

01:40:54.640 And it's crazy as a reporter to to do that.

01:40:57.120 And then like a month later, he's caught.

01:40:59.200 It's like, wait, what do you mean?

01:41:00.460 After all this time, almost three decades of not being able to find him.

01:41:04.280 Boom, there he is.

01:41:05.380 And you're at your questions answered.

01:41:07.540 So this is a long and amazing story from a law enforcement perspective, from a serial killer perspective.

01:41:15.440 There's just so much to get into.

01:41:17.000 And it was basically took place over a 10 year period, if I have my facts right, 76 to 86.

01:41:22.700 Well, in terms of, you know, when he kind of evolved into a full blown rapist and killer, that was between those years.

01:41:31.000 But in the years prior to that, he was he was a fetish burglar and had already killed a father of a 16 year old girl down in Visalia before he started as a serial rapist up in Sacramento in 1976.

01:41:46.540 So we know that now at the time. We know that now because we know his identity, right?

01:41:51.640 in part there was always so down in visalia 1974 1975 there was a burglar that hit over a hundred

01:42:00.700 times uh in the visalia area right around clustered around the college of the sequoias

01:42:06.040 and he was going in and going into the women's undergarment drawers tossing the women's clothing

01:42:12.500 around pulling out women's photos out of the photo albums and stealing blue chip stamps and single

01:42:18.460 earrings and was very prolific. After about 85 attacks, he goes into a house in the middle of

01:42:28.560 the night and tries to pull 16-year-old Beth Snelling out of her bed. She's kicking and

01:42:35.040 screaming. He actually gets her outside when her father, Claude Snelling, a professor at the

01:42:39.980 College of the Sequoias, tries to come to her rescue. Well, D'Angelo drops Beth, shoots Claude

01:42:46.040 snowing three times, killing him and then runs off. And so now at this point, he's actually

01:42:53.100 killed. And six months later, he ends up basically up in Sacramento and is now breaking into houses

01:43:02.360 and raping women. So that's how it starts. The crimes escalate. So burglary to rape, 0.97

01:43:11.900 to murder, torture and on. 0.87

01:43:15.120 I mean, is that unusual to see

01:43:16.740 or is it more typical to see somebody 0.99

01:43:18.960 with like an MO

01:43:20.040 that they just carry through to the end?

01:43:23.780 Well, you know,

01:43:24.480 in terms of the evolution

01:43:25.540 of the serial predator,

01:43:27.780 you know, we often see them

01:43:30.240 learning how to do the steps

01:43:32.800 to get up to where they are going

01:43:34.440 to be doing the violence on people.

01:43:37.720 You know, they have to get comfortable

01:43:39.160 being on somebody else's property,

01:43:41.140 breaking into the house and get good at breaking into a house when somebody's there.

01:43:45.500 And that's what D'Angelo is doing. And then eventually they go hands on with with a victim.

01:43:51.440 And with D'Angelo, he was sexually assaulting the women and ultimately was attacking couples

01:43:57.940 before he evolved to just committing homicides. So this is a almost a textbook example of the

01:44:07.320 evolution of a serial predator from a serial burglar to a serial killer it makes sense in

01:44:14.880 a way i mean it's tough to make sense of any murders serial killings but it does make some

01:44:19.960 sense to see him graduating to more serious crimes as his confidence builds builds and

01:44:25.680 as weird as this sound sounds he was very good at what he did i mean he was very good at covering

01:44:32.860 his tracks right from the get-go that that was something he was always excellent at no

01:44:37.760 well no you know he he was a criminal justice major and then of course he was a cop down in

01:44:48.100 exeter which is a city right next to visalia when he first starts as a visalia ransacker he was not

01:44:54.340 very good he struggled to get into houses he was seen left and right by people either victims

01:45:00.620 residents that lived where he's peeping, or people in the neighborhood. But as he is developing in

01:45:10.300 his law enforcement career, he ends up becoming part of a burglary task force and goes to

01:45:17.480 burglary investigation school. And now he's learning how law enforcement is investigating

01:45:25.780 these cases as well as how burglars commit their crimes. So the public money that went into the

01:45:32.800 law enforcement field basically paid DeAngelo's way to become a better predator. And so when he

01:45:39.320 moved up to Sacramento, he realized all the mistakes he made. And this is what makes him

01:45:45.100 somewhat more of a sophisticated and intelligent offender is he learned from his mistakes and he

01:45:50.700 incorporated methodology, strategies and tactics for now as a rapist, which up in Sacramento,

01:45:58.200 he was known as the East Area Rapist. He is employing these methods, strategies and tactics

01:46:04.700 and is very, very good at avoiding being seen, avoiding witnesses and breaking into houses.

01:46:12.760 So he he basically evolved. Now, knowing who he who is, you know, a lot about him.

01:46:21.520 Is he above average intelligence? Like, how would you describe his level of smarts?

01:46:27.580 You know, in terms of D'Angelo, I would say, yeah, he's above average intelligence for this type of offender.

01:46:35.220 You know, he, as a cop talking to a sergeant down in Exeter, or actually up in Auburn, when he was a cop up in Auburn, starting in 1976, his sergeant said, you know, he wasn't a good cop.

01:46:50.320 He didn't employ good tactics.

01:46:53.220 So, you know, I can discern, you know, in terms of what he employed during the commission of his crimes, that he's a deep thinker and he was a forward thinker.

01:47:03.700 And then he utilized, you know, what he learned, you know, in his law enforcement aspects in order to be able to commit these crimes.

01:47:11.820 But he's not very book smart.

01:47:14.240 You know, in fact, his ex-fiancée, Bonnie, who I have become great friends with, you know, she went to school with him at Sac State as he's studying criminal justice.

01:47:25.820 And they took some classes together and he was constantly cheating off of her just to be able to pass his classes.

01:47:31.240 Hmm. When when was he engaged to Bonnie?

01:47:36.120 In 1970 ish. I can't remember if it was at the end of 69 into 70, but circa 1970.

01:47:43.500 And that's you know, we had a case in Davis, California that occurred in June of actually the beginning of July of 1978, where as he is literally raping this woman, he's sobbing and he's saying, 0.96

01:48:01.240 I'm going to kill you, Bonnie. I'm going to kill you, Bonnie, over and over again. 0.99

01:48:05.500 So we always knew there was a Bonnie in his life that was significant. 0.97

01:48:10.100 We just didn't know who this Bonnie was. Was this a girlfriend? Was this a wife? Et cetera.

01:48:16.780 And then once we identified him through genealogy, I'm looking through his past.

01:48:23.620 An analyst up at Sacramento found a newspaper article announcing the engagement of Joseph DeAngelo to Bonnie.

01:48:30.980 And that was one of those check marks.

01:48:33.340 Oh, he's got a Bonnie in his life.

01:48:35.620 Well, that's interesting.

01:48:36.580 But of course, that doesn't prove that he's the Golden State Killer.

01:48:39.880 But it was one of those facts that, hey, there's something here.

01:48:44.760 What did she say he was like?

01:48:46.720 I'm curious because that was before, you know, the 10-year serious rape and murder spree that, you know, he's known for, 76 to 86.

01:48:54.740 How does she describe the then relatively young D'Angelo?

01:48:58.440 You know, the primary characteristic that she really emphasizes is that rules didn't apply to him.

01:49:08.680 You know, he didn't demonstrate anything to her, at least through the course of the relationship until the very end, that there was anything criminal about him in terms of indicating that he was capable of violence.

01:49:23.260 But he just didn't care about rules.

01:49:27.100 You know, he would speed, he would go and trespass, you know, in the Folsom Lake area or on the old Rocketdyne property in Rancho Cordova.

01:49:37.640 And then he would, you know, he was a thrill seeker.

01:49:40.360 So he would have her on the motorcycle and try to scare her, you know, as she's holding on to him, as he's bombing, you know, off road, you know, and purposefully just trying to intimidate her that way.

01:49:52.680 So, you know, it was an interesting but short relationship. And then when they got engaged, when she broke it off, that's when he shows up, knocks on her window at night.

01:50:07.140 And when she opens up the drapes, D'Angelo's standing there with a gun pointed at her and basically tells her, you're coming with me.

01:50:15.500 We're going to go get married, I think, in Reno.

01:50:18.420 She closed the drapes, got her dad.

01:50:20.880 Her dad goes out front, and this is up in Auburn, the Auburn area, and confronts him.

01:50:26.700 And D'Angelo ends up leaving, and Bonnie never talked to him again.

01:50:32.720 Wow.

01:50:33.280 She must consider herself so lucky.

01:50:37.140 She does, you know, absolutely. But, you know, she was so courageous. She, you know, the victim that was on your show, Jane Carson, I introduced those to Bonnie and Jane. And Jane actually had Bonnie in the courtroom when Jane gave her impact statement.

01:50:57.920 and bonnie stood up couldn't say anything but she was there and let d'angelo know i'm here

01:51:04.600 you know so she showed tremendous courage to be able to let him know that she recognized that she

01:51:11.620 really was a victim of his uh just fortunately he didn't physically attack her like he did

01:51:18.300 the other women in the series oh that moment of of her standing up and while jane was there

01:51:24.460 gave me the chills like they finally had their say and he was alive to hear it that's thanks to you

01:51:31.080 you know so often it's like even the Jeffrey Epstein case you know he killed himself whatever

01:51:37.100 he died and his victims only gave these impact statements that he never really got to hear

01:51:43.900 it was just the frustration of the victims in those circumstances is terrible and and these

01:51:49.220 women managed to avoid at least that piece of the terror? They got to confront him, but it wasn't

01:51:54.580 easy. You know, I saw, you know, one of the San Jose victims, she had a large contingent of her

01:52:02.260 family in the courtroom with her. She gave her statement. I happened to be out in the lobby

01:52:06.600 outside the courtroom when she walked out and she literally collapsed after giving her statement.

01:52:12.100 Her family had to hold her up. So, you know, this really underscores, you know, to this day,

01:52:18.300 You know, how traumatized these families are, these victims who were personally attacked, as well as the families that lost their loved ones.

01:52:28.360 He was so cruel in the way he pursued these attacks.

01:52:33.860 He was clearly a sadist. 0.86

01:52:36.600 I mean, he enjoyed the torture and harming of others.

01:52:40.280 And the suffering seemed to be part of what he enjoyed the most.

01:52:43.900 Not just of the women he was attacking and the men who he ultimately added to the mix, but even of the children who were who were there in the homes that he went.

01:52:53.280 He couldn't have cared less if he bumped into a three year old or a seven year old, Paul.

01:52:59.220 No. Well, he used the children against the adults.

01:53:02.380 You know, he knew due to his surveillance, either prior to entering the house or while he's in the house and walking around, he knew they had children and he would threaten the parents. 0.97

01:53:13.900 You know, do what I say or I'll kill everybody in this house. I'll kill everything in this house. That was a common phrase that he would say. But also when you start talking about the sadistic aspect of him, he wasn't a physical sadist by classic definition. He was a psychological sadist. 0.99

01:53:34.400 You mentioned the fear. That's what he wanted to invoke in his victims. And so he would do things while he's got his victims bound just to get that fear response. And then he would continue after he's attacked them and left. He would call the victims.

01:53:51.380 We have one victim who was attacked in 1977. And in 2001, 24 years later, he calls that victim and tell and basically says, remember when we played, you know, so he was still wanting to have that victim live in fear after a quarter century.

01:54:12.780 We have one example of one of his phone calls, and you can hear the torture and how scary this would have been, especially to someone who had been attacked by this guy and lived only to hear him revisit her.

01:54:27.300 Take a listen. This is, again, 1978.

01:54:42.780 my god it is still scary it's right i'm looking at my assistant abby we both like just get the

01:55:04.300 chills like down your spine at that and that was the point yeah well and that's exactly what he's

01:55:13.060 doing you know that's where he wants that victim to know he's still around and to be uh scared

01:55:19.320 that phone call that victim that he called uh in that call was a very first victim that we know of

01:55:28.300 when he was the east area rapist which occurred in june of 1976 and just let me jump in for one

01:55:33.460 Hold on a second, Paul. Hold on. Because they call him East Area Rapist first because he started with rapes for the most part.

01:55:38.820 I mean, we talked about the burglary, but that was sort of what they dubbed him East Area Rapist or EAR while he was primarily focused on rape.

01:55:46.400 So if you may hear different names for this guy over the course of this interview, we're talking about the same guy, Golden State Killer.

01:55:51.420 Sorry, go ahead.

01:55:52.840 Yeah, no. And I probably should clarify that he had multiple monikers over the course of his career.

01:55:58.140 an east area rapist when he starts attacking in the east area of the sacramental suburbs that's

01:56:04.020 when he got to that moniker and with that first victim in june of 76 that recorded phone call

01:56:11.880 came in january of 1978 18 months later you know so he kept on top of his victims you know that

01:56:21.180 victim that he called 24 years later she had remarried moved all the way across town so you

01:56:29.300 know now she's living in a different location different last name her phone number was under

01:56:34.940 her husband's name and yet d'angelo had that victim's phone number to call her after the

01:56:41.920 sacramental bee published an article in the newspaper about how dna had linked the east

01:56:47.740 rapist in Northern California to an unsolved series of homicides down South committed by

01:56:54.340 the original Night Stalker. It turns out it's all the same guy.

01:56:59.740 I cannot imagine going through that where, you know, you've been attacked, you've survived,

01:57:04.980 you've dealt with it, hopefully, you know, with the help of therapists and friends and God.

01:57:09.520 And then 24 years later, the guy resurfaces to spark the terror all over again. You know,

01:57:16.780 the kids today use that term triggering. This is true triggering. Sure. And, you know, these

01:57:24.480 victims, you know, they suffered a ton of trauma during their attacks. None of them at that point,

01:57:30.400 up until 2001, realized that their attacker would blossom into a serial killer. And in fact,

01:57:36.940 the rumor on the street that many people, when I was doing the investigation, when I was talking 0.53

01:57:41.100 to victims or other people in town at the time of the attacks thought, well, he he got

01:57:47.600 killed when he tried to break into a house.

01:57:49.280 That's that was the rumor.

01:57:50.360 They just thought he was he was gone.

01:57:52.980 And then now the phone call comes in and he's with that one victim.

01:57:57.660 He's now letting her know I'm still around and letting law enforcement know, too.

01:58:02.440 I mean, right, because after 86, was there a question about whether this guy was still

01:58:07.000 alive that the crime spree seemed to be over?

01:58:09.400 Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, and that was part of the struggles that I had personally with my management, if you will, is, you know, I had my boss at the DA's office was saying, Paul, he's dead. Why are you spending so much time on this case?

01:58:28.760 you know and and i was pretty convinced no i think he's still out there um and turns out he was in

01:58:36.980 fact when i was on your show i mentioned to your audience he could be sitting here watching this

01:58:41.380 show right now i remember that and we were all freaked out it is very possible that he is still

01:58:47.720 alive he's still monitoring the investigation he's possibly even still watching the show he could be

01:58:53.220 he could be in this audience oh well that's chilling so why did you think he was still

01:58:59.040 alive why why did you believe that because before the phone call you didn't really have any evidence

01:59:03.480 of that no and and that phone call was you know at that time you had occurred 17 years prior you

01:59:11.520 know there's there's always a possibility he could have died uh or you know been in custody

01:59:17.400 But in taking a look at the age range he likely was at the time he was committing these attacks, he most certainly was, you know, at an age that he easily could still be alive at the time that I made that statement.

01:59:35.600 But also in assessing this offender and him stopping, you know, 1986 that we know of, but I felt that he actually psychologically stopped in 1981 after the last Santa Barbara attack.

01:59:54.600 I thought, no, this is an offender that has stopped committing these crimes and is living a normal life.

02:00:02.940 And just like the guy that I think is most similar to D'Angelo, Dennis Rader, BTK, you know, I felt the same thing, that he just blended back into his life.

02:00:13.460 He was getting older, knew he couldn't commit to these types of attacks anymore.

02:00:17.800 and you know the fact that after what was that 15 years after his last known attack he reached out

02:00:28.440 and and contacted a victim okay this guy can go quiet for a long period of time and that's where

02:00:36.060 i i kind of just put my eggs in that basket going he's still alive and uh quite frankly he's still

02:00:42.220 a threat to the public and we need to find him it's just shocking to think that somebody this

02:00:47.360 committed to this level of depravity could stop, could just turn it off one day.

02:00:54.480 And that's something, you know, the myth out there is that, you know, serial killers, once

02:01:00.200 they start, they don't stop. But we've seen as some of these notorious serial killing cases

02:01:07.900 have been solved, well, these killers do stop. You know, we go to Gary Ridgeway, Green River

02:01:13.500 killer, or as I mentioned before, Dennis Rader with BTK, and in interviews with those killers,

02:01:20.200 you know, they had reasons for why they stopped. Gary Ridgway said, well, I got married.

02:01:24.680 Dennis Rader said, you know, in my last attack, there was a man inside the house that I didn't

02:01:29.360 realize was going to be there. I got into a fight, and I left scared. I thought I could have been

02:01:34.520 hurt, killed, or captured, and I didn't want any of that, and I was getting older. And that's part

02:01:39.640 of why I thought with D'Angelo, you know, in his last Santa Barbara attack in 1981, possibly stopped

02:01:47.020 because he got into a physical fight with six foot three Gregory Sanchez. So as these cases have been

02:01:53.460 solved, we're starting to see that there is the possibility that some of these offenders, not

02:01:59.420 necessarily all, but some of them after committing the most horrific crimes imaginable, have the

02:02:04.500 ability to go ahead and start living a normal life. The compartmentalized their past. They

02:02:10.540 continue to fantasize about that, but they are now the family man. D'Angelo was the goading

02:02:17.340 grandfather at the time of his arrest. If my math is correct, he would have been born in 46?

02:02:27.260 40 uh 45 46 yes okay so when he was committing these crimes he was between 30 and 40 or so

02:02:37.460 of the east area rapist attacks yes you know but we were pretty confident ken clark from sack

02:02:45.520 homicide uh who was also you know part of the uh the core east area rapist task force a golden

02:02:51.960 State Killer Task Force, he's pretty sure that D'Angelo in 1973 was the Cordova cat burglar,

02:02:59.980 you know, breaking into the houses while people were inside the houses in the very same neighborhood

02:03:05.440 where the East Area Rapist starts up in 1976. I know actually from a high school friend that

02:03:13.960 called in after D'Angelo was arrested through my contacts with SAC DA's office. This friend said,

02:03:20.000 And we used to commit burglaries as high schoolers in that very neighborhood.

02:03:24.280 So D'Angelo has been committing crimes at least as far back as being a teenager.

02:03:30.640 But my point in raising the 30 to 40-year-old range, which was 76 to 86, is that you can see it.

02:03:38.120 Like that's when a man would be probably at his strongest, you know, feeling his most confident.

02:03:43.900 You get in your 40s, you know, things start to change a bit.

02:03:46.640 And you could see consistent with what you just told me, maybe the confidence level going down.

02:03:51.620 Well, and as the East Area Rapist and even as the original Night Stalker, D'Angelo, his crimes were very physical.

02:03:59.500 He liked to prowl around the houses and go through backyards and then move through neighborhoods by jumping fences.

02:04:06.960 If he was being pursued, and there's multiple times during the series in which law enforcement actually gets into, you know, foot pursuits with East Area Rapists, you know, he is running and jumping fences and is very adept at it.

02:04:23.160 But, you know, I know, you know, now that I'm, you know, 54, I've gone through from the late 20s into my 30s being very physically capable.

02:04:31.520 And as I got older, well, me jumping a fence today is going to be a lot more effort than when I was in my late 20s.

02:04:39.120 So that's part of, you know, D'Angelo, you know, self-assessing.

02:04:44.820 Can he continue to commit these crimes and get away with them?

02:04:48.920 And as he's getting older, the risk elevates because he's realizing he's no longer as physically capable.

02:04:55.680 So because we just we did a show on the Zodiac killer or who our guest believes is a Zodiac killer.

02:05:02.600 And we did a show on the D.C. snipers, you know, those two guys.

02:05:07.520 And in both of those cases, it seemed pretty clear that the person wanted to be caught.

02:05:12.380 And the Zodiac wasn't actually caught, but, you know, leaving clues.

02:05:17.120 And in the sniper case, you know, leaving clues, the tarot card, the notes and calling like it just seemed like it was cat and mousy.

02:05:26.300 But this case seems very different.

02:05:28.920 D'Angelo, to me, seems the opposite, did not want to be caught at all.

02:05:33.660 No, absolutely the opposite.

02:05:35.620 You know, and I've I've actually looked into Zodiac that Zodiac cases were in my backyard.

02:05:41.420 And I would drive by, you know, I would drive by, you know, the first Zodiac crime scene on my commute into work every day.

02:05:50.340 So, you know, I'm very familiar with the Zodiac case.

02:05:54.100 Now, Zodiac, you think about, you know, first the styles of attacks, you know, with the exception of Lake Berryessa and Napa.

02:06:04.200 You know, he's like David Berkowitz out there in New York.

02:06:07.720 He's walking up on young couples that are parked inside a car and shooting them.

02:06:13.440 This is about as cowardly a type of crime that can be committed.

02:06:18.280 But the communication is demonstrating sort of that narcissistic, ego-driven attitude, just like BTK.

02:06:26.460 BTK was communicating, you know, with law enforcement, and that's ultimately what got him caught.

02:06:33.520 D'Angelo did not want to get caught.

02:06:35.380 He probably communicated at times during the course of a series to law enforcement calling and dispatch, but he recognized that was too risky to him.

02:06:47.060 And so when he is arrested and sitting in that interview room, he is so shocked that he got caught and so dejected.

02:06:57.700 He just wanted to live out his life, not seeking notoriety like Zodiac or Raider was.

02:07:05.960 Do you think if you hadn't caught him, he would have left a note, you know, and taken credit in that or he would have gone to his grave with a secret?

02:07:13.680 He would have gone to his grave. I mean, to this day, he has never said a word to us about anything related to the attacks.

02:07:23.380 So only he has answers to so many questions that all of us have.

02:07:28.060 And he hasn't divulged anything. I don't think he likes the idea that now he's being seen as a Golden State Killer.

02:07:37.000 And this is what's so important in terms of assessing him for potential interviews is how does he self-identify?

02:07:45.200 Dennis Rader, BTK, what he's caught, you know, he was the president of his church, was married.

02:07:51.440 He was active in his son's Boy Scouts. But he goes, that's just a facade. I'm BTK. That's how he identified in this world. And I know when we caught D'Angelo, it's like, well, does he identify as the grandfather or does he identify as Golden State Killer? And to this day, we don't know. But right now, he's not like saying, hey, look at me. I'm the Golden State Killer. He just wants it to be quiet.

02:08:19.940 In discussing the snipers, you know, they they said, like, I am God, call me God, things like that.

02:08:26.840 And they seem to suffer from a God complex. 0.52

02:08:29.500 I mean, the elder, you know, in particular, Mohammed, who was driving it, suffer from a God complex and really felt powerful in committing these murders.

02:08:38.920 D'Angelo seems to have been driven by something very different.

02:08:44.960 Yeah, you know, very complicated in terms of assessing what his motive is.

02:08:49.460 True, you know, inner motive. Some of these killers, that God complex is very real. You know, they control if this person that they're attacking dies and when that person dies.

02:09:03.860 And there's numerous examples of such as Samuel Little or even Jesperson, the smiley, happy face killer, where they would strangle these women to the point of unconsciousness and let them come back alive only to do it over and over again.

02:09:19.180 This is what they said, gave them that power. D'Angelo, there is a true, there's a vindictiveness to him. There's also, you know, the sexual assault on these women, many of these women was driven by sex.

02:09:38.700 And that's that's it's often a misnomer that it's all about power and control. Now, there's a sexual aspect to why these offenders are attacking them.

02:09:48.360 They have sexualized violence, but the vindictiveness is where I think it gets interesting because I truly believe that many of the couples were attacked because D'Angelo had some sort of interaction, prior interaction with the man and decided it was a negative thing.

02:10:11.220 And he decided, I'm going to come back and show you who I am and basically took control over that man, emasculated that man and then took his wife or girlfriend out into the other room and sexually assaulted her.

02:10:24.340 And this is a vindictive act.

02:10:27.240 So but until he talks, we don't know exactly why, you know, he's choosing any of these victims in this series.

02:10:34.600 hmm there were some clues uh he made small statements to various victims that would pique

02:10:42.640 your curiosity and so on like i i watched you or somebody he said something to one woman who was

02:10:47.740 like do i know this person you know how do i like there were little clues but they weren't meant for

02:10:53.600 you it was just you know slips of the tongue where he had revealed a little too much well actually

02:10:58.600 this is going towards the sophistication of D'Angelo. Those weren't slip of the tongue.

02:11:06.780 What he was doing is verbal staging. So you think about typical, when we say a crime is staged,

02:11:15.140 you know, this is where evidence has been changed at a crime scene in order to make, let's say,

02:11:19.900 a homicide looked like a suicide. So the offender isn't, you know, draw the attention of the

02:11:28.260 investigation. What D'Angelo was doing was making statements to these victims, knowing that they

02:11:36.820 were going to talk to law enforcement. So he was planting seeds. And anytime somebody stages a

02:11:44.280 crime, whether it be the physical evidence or the verbal aspect, that is to try to push the

02:11:50.280 investigation away from themselves. So D'Angelo would say certain things like, you know, as an

02:11:57.280 example, you better not tell the cops you saw my van parked outside. And he said van over and over

02:12:03.940 and over throughout the second half of the East Area Rapist series. Guarantee he never drove a van

02:12:10.420 to any of these scenes. He's probably driving a motorcycle or another vehicle. Or, you know,

02:12:16.380 I killed two people down in Bakersfield, you know, prior. You know, so he's trying to push,

02:12:21.800 I've already killed, you know, down in Bakersfield. I'm going to do that to you. But he's also 0.99

02:12:26.340 wanting the victim to relay that, you know, he is from the Bakersfield area, which he wasn't.

02:12:33.180 And most notably, one prime example is when he's asking this victim where her husband was at,

02:12:39.540 And she said, Roseville, which is just a city just north of Sacramento, he says he asks, where's Roseville?

02:12:46.300 Like he doesn't know the areas from out of town.

02:12:49.080 Well, D'Angelo was a police intern for Roseville PD.

02:12:53.800 So this shows how this staging was working in his mind to try to throw off the investigation.

02:13:00.580 Again, I mean, absolutely cunning.

02:13:03.280 That's why I asked you what level of smarts did this guy have?

02:13:06.220 Because he sounds, I don't want to say brilliant, but he sounds very intelligent.

02:13:11.200 It's interesting to hear you say, not really.

02:13:14.240 It's just he studied this particular field.

02:13:16.820 He worked in this particular field.

02:13:18.800 And he made himself a bit of an expert in how to misdirect.

02:13:23.480 No, absolutely.

02:13:24.860 You know, he's not, you know, he's not going to score off the charts on an IQ test. 0.85

02:13:30.880 But I'm not saying he's dumb.

02:13:32.340 You know, I would say probably to anybody, he's of average intellect based on just me kind of assessing him as a person. 0.97

02:13:39.380 But as a criminal, as a predator, he is he's savvy.

02:13:45.460 And I think you use the term cunning. Absolutely.

02:13:48.120 And he was trained. He was a law enforcement officer.

02:13:51.360 And he was smart enough to draw upon that training and those tools in order to be a better criminal, a better predator.

02:13:58.940 Now, those investigating him did suspect law enforcement ties, right? Like there was enough proficiency at the crime scenes that I've heard some of the former investigators say, yes, we did wonder whether he could have a connection to law enforcement or possibly a military background, which he also did have, if I'm not mistaken.

02:14:22.360 He was a 27-year-old Navy veteran in 1973.

02:14:28.600 He served in the Navy.

02:14:30.500 He served in the Navy back in the 60s.

02:14:33.000 He was during the Vietnam War, but he never saw combat.

02:14:37.060 He was on a ship.

02:14:39.220 But over the decades, there was always suspects that came up that were law enforcement or military.

02:14:46.360 And there was some thought, you know, could he have that type of background?

02:14:52.920 I took the position that because of, and this was kind of later during my investigation, once I kind of was like, aha, I know I've got a better read on who this offender is now, that the position I took was that the tactics he was employing would be tactics that an intelligent offender would naturally want to do to try to prevent themselves from being caught.

02:15:21.440 I could not say, you know, that for sure anything he did demonstrated specialized military training or law enforcement training.

02:15:31.600 It just was he doesn't want to get caught and he's employing those those strategies.

02:15:37.680 Like he wore gloves at every crime scene, right?

02:15:40.840 That we didn't do very well on the fingerprints.

02:15:43.940 He always wore gloves.

02:15:45.940 He would take the gloves off, you know, when he's sexually assaulting the women from time to time.

02:15:51.660 But we don't have any latents across any of the cases that have matched back to D'Angelo.

02:15:56.780 Of course, every house that you process have latent prints all over.

02:16:01.000 So it's kind of tough to say, you know, leading into the identification of D'Angelo, whether you have the offenders print or not.

02:16:08.340 But it turns out, no, you know, he never left a print that we were able to tie back to him once he was caught.

02:16:14.240 But he's also, you know, back in the 70s, you know, he's wearing a ski mask all the time, but even while wearing a ski mask so they couldn't see his face, he's shining a flashlight in the victim's eyes, blinding them, and he's telling them, don't look at me or I'll kill you.

02:16:30.080 So he's put in multiple, you know, layers to prevent the victims from seeing his face.

02:16:38.220 So that's, you know, part of my entire pursuit of him.

02:16:42.420 I only knew this this guy as has a masked man.

02:16:46.640 And then finally, once D'Angelo was identified and he's in handcuffs walking into Sacramento homicide, it was like, well, there you go.

02:16:53.980 You know, I've unmasked him and that's what he looks like.

02:16:56.860 So that's, you know, he for the types of evidence that could identify him and the types of witness statements that could produce a composite for back in the day, he prevented all that from happening.

02:17:13.380 What he didn't prevent and didn't know about was, you know, he was leaving his DNA all over the place.

02:17:19.440 Oh, yeah. No, we'll get to that. We'll get to the DNA in just a bit. But how do we have composite sketches of him then?

02:17:25.780 You know, I remember when they arrested him, the D.A. was standing next to three of them, which showed a younger D'Angelo in sketch artist form.

02:17:33.280 So how do we have that?

02:17:35.520 Yeah, all of those composites that were produced back in the day were produced by neighbors that saw strange men walking in the neighborhood.

02:17:45.520 I can't say that any of those composites are actually D'Angelo today.

02:17:50.400 Some of them may look close to D'Angelo, but I have no confidence in any of those composites.

02:17:57.400 I did wonder, because as you describe him jumping over the fences and racing around in people's backyards, and I remember you saying once that he liked neighborhoods that had mostly one-story houses.

02:18:10.000 He wasn't a big fan of the two-story houses.

02:18:12.580 My question was, why didn't the neighbors see him?

02:18:16.120 He struck so often.

02:18:17.660 It's not like one crime every five years.

02:18:20.720 Like, how is he not seen spotted and have and had the cops called on him?

02:18:26.360 Well, most certainly he he targeted neighborhoods.

02:18:31.780 Now, just to back up a little bit, you know, victim selection, you know, though we don't know how he's selecting all his victims.

02:18:39.640 He's multimodal. Some victims he likely followed home.

02:18:43.540 Some victims he's in a neighborhood prowling and runs across them.

02:18:47.220 some victims he may have had an interaction with and decided that they fit his needs.

02:18:52.920 But he did choose neighborhoods that had certain characteristics that would minimize

02:18:59.460 the threat of him being seen. And that very first neighborhood that he attacks in, in June of 76,

02:19:08.440 in Rancho Cordova, this Cordova Meadows neighborhood, single-story houses, five-foot

02:19:14.700 fences, which are relatively easy to get up and over. There was no streetlights in that neighborhood.

02:19:21.280 The houses, the windows on the houses and between the houses were situated to where he could easily

02:19:27.100 just walk between these houses and nobody could see them. They're like dark alleys. So this was

02:19:34.400 a perfect prowling neighborhood. And I believe he chose that neighborhood because he's familiar

02:19:40.440 with it. And he knew that it was tough for people to see him if he employed those types of strategies.

02:19:48.060 But we have examples of of neighbors outside seeing a man kind of walk past them, you know, towards

02:19:55.720 a victim's house later on that night. And then they as they're out front and they look and to

02:20:02.780 see, well, where did this man go? He is absolutely just disappeared into the shadows. So he was very

02:20:08.980 stealthy and he knew how to use

02:20:11.080 lighting to his advantage

02:20:12.660 Now I know you have three adult

02:20:15.020 children of your own at this point

02:20:16.840 while we're here

02:20:18.620 is there any sort of advice

02:20:21.040 you want to offer to people and like

02:20:22.780 where should we live? Where

02:20:24.900 shouldn't we live? We shouldn't

02:20:27.020 live in a neighborhood like that if we can avoid it

02:20:28.960 right? I mean just like what are your thoughts on that

02:20:30.800 the general safety aspect of that

02:20:32.300 Well you know

02:20:34.980 it is it's tough

02:20:36.740 comparing today to the 1970s in terms of, you know, how are these offenders going to be

02:20:45.380 attacking? You know, most certainly with my kids, you know, going to college,

02:20:54.440 avoid, you know, the first floor, you know, where there's a first floor window or the doors right

02:21:01.120 there. You know, it's just offenders today have to do different things in order to be able to

02:21:10.240 attack victims. It's relatively rare to see a predator consistently breaking into houses over

02:21:17.280 and over again and getting away with it for any period of time, just due to technology,

02:21:23.460 We all have cameras, surveillance systems. And yeah, you know, so there's so much that really limits the type of series that D'Angelo is doing. But predators are now doing different things. You know, in the 90s in my jurisdiction, you know, they really grabbed the serial predator was gravitating towards the sex workers because now these women are voluntarily getting into their cars.

02:21:47.380 But then eventually, once the stroll area started to dry up out of fear, then they go online.

02:21:54.120 You know, now you have the Craigslist killer or the escort services where they call in and then they have the victim meet them someplace where they have now isolated that victim.

02:22:03.900 You know, so that's part of how the predator is evolving based on how technology and security consciousness has changed.

02:22:11.800 It's just terrifying.

02:22:17.380 so back to uh d'angelo so he committed several rapes and he as you point out he had studied

02:22:27.220 criminal justice he got a criminal justice degree from california state university

02:22:30.560 and it seems to me he was actually he was a cop when he was committing the rapes and even what

02:22:38.840 the first two murders he was still an active duty police officer yes he was uh he was a law

02:22:46.480 enforcement officer for everything that happened in Visalia, all those burglaries, including the

02:22:53.020 homicide of Claude Snowing. In fact, he was a sergeant at the time that he left the police

02:22:59.960 department down in Exeter. And when he's hired on by Auburn Police Department, he is now becoming

02:23:07.560 the East Area Rapist. And for every single attack in Northern California, from Sacramento down to

02:23:15.520 modesto sacramento down to san jose 50 attacks he is an active law enforcement officer and that's

02:23:23.900 part and the two the double homicide of katie and brian maggiore up in sacramento he is a law

02:23:29.140 enforcement officer it isn't until after all those attacks when he gets arrested for shoplifting

02:23:36.720 and he's put on administrative leave and then ultimately terminating does he go down south

02:23:43.300 And every attack after that, he is wanting to kill or does kill his victims.

02:23:48.680 So that change from, you know, having authority as a law enforcement officer going down south where that authority has been stripped.

02:23:57.200 You know, now he becomes a serial killer just straight up.

02:24:03.560 He's not even trying to do anything else.

02:24:06.160 And we and when you say down south, we're still obviously in California, hence Golden State Killer.

02:24:11.120 Never, never left California.

02:24:13.300 Right. So in 1979, after he disappears up north, he turns out in October of 79, he shows up in Goleta, Santa Barbara area.

02:24:25.720 Goleta is a small town next to Santa Barbara City in Santa Barbara, does a classic East Area rapist style attack from up north.

02:24:35.220 But once he's got the woman out in the family room and the man bound in the bed, the woman hears him pacing back and forth. 0.99

02:24:43.120 I'm going to kill him. I'm going to kill him this time. I'm going to kill him. Well, D'Angelo at this point had already been terminated as a law enforcement officer. 1.00

02:24:52.120 That attack actually goes sideways because the victims end up kind of freaking out once the woman hears this.

02:24:59.840 And then he ends up getting chased by an off-duty FBI special agent who hears the screams in his neighbor's house.

02:25:07.560 But two months later, D'Angelo's back just a block south of that sideways attack and kills a couple there in Santa Barbara.

02:25:18.360 Then he goes down to Ventura and bludgeons Lyman and Charlene Smith to death.

02:25:23.040 Then he's down in Laguna Niguel in Orange County, where he bludgeons a couple to death there.

02:25:29.800 He goes to Irvine a couple of times, kills two women there.

02:25:33.100 He goes and attacks another couple in Santa Barbara.

02:25:35.800 You know, so he is now moving through Southern California and killing.

02:25:43.620 And then in 1986, after his last attack on beautiful 19 year old Janelle Cruz, he stops, you know, and that's that's one of the mysteries.

02:25:52.600 Why does he stop? And I have my theories. But until he says, you know, why, we just don't know.

02:25:58.680 So what you mentioned the couple. So he started off, as we discussed, burgling and raping. 0.90

02:26:04.000 But there was a point at which he graduated to going into homes to rape women where their boyfriends or their husbands were present. 0.96

02:26:13.400 And this is, I guess, right before he crossed over to just murdering, too. 0.72

02:26:17.500 And it was almost like a challenge to him after I think it was the Sacramento Bee wrote an article saying he had never done that before.

02:26:25.760 He'd only attacked women sleeping by themselves in their homes at night.

02:26:30.720 And just speak to that, because it almost seemed like he felt as though he'd been dared or his courage had been questioned.

02:26:39.960 No, no, absolutely.

02:26:41.120 You know, Sacramento Bee has that article.

02:26:42.700 In essence, it says he has never attacked when a man is home.

02:26:48.360 and to attack number 16 up there as East Area Rapist,

02:26:56.640 he goes into a house with a woman and a man.

02:27:01.240 And this is where he breaks in, the couple's sleeping.

02:27:04.280 He wakes them up.

02:27:05.620 He blinds them with a flashlight.

02:27:06.960 He tells them he has a gun. 0.99

02:27:08.860 He's going to spatter their brains all over the wall 0.99

02:27:11.700 if they don't do what he says. 1.00

02:27:14.000 And he tosses bindings to the woman

02:27:17.460 and makes her tie up the man face down in the bed and then he goes and ties the woman up once the

02:27:24.220 man is somewhat secure and then ultimately you know he would go out and get dishes and put dishes

02:27:29.040 on the man's back as an alarm system and tell the man if he heard if D'Angelo heard these rattle

02:27:34.320 he would kill everything in the house would be a common phrase or cut off a piece of of his wife 0.94

02:27:39.840 and bring it back to him or you know cut off the fingers of the kids whatever and then he would 1.00

02:27:44.160 take the woman out into the family room and sexually assault her. He was challenged by that 0.99

02:27:49.920 Sacramento Bee article. But the interesting thing is, is that he proves in that very first attack

02:27:56.560 with a man present, he could do it. But then two thirds of the attacks from that point on

02:28:02.460 have men present. So this really underscores that that victimology is something that satisfied him.

02:28:12.120 He really liked the idea of having that power and control over the man while he is being able to sexually assault that man's wife or girlfriend.

02:28:22.340 And so this is where it gets interesting from a psychological standpoint is he didn't start doing that.

02:28:28.540 But think about the risk he was taking to break into a house that has an entire family there, a man present.

02:28:36.940 And oftentimes these men had guns nearby, and yet he's willing to take that risk in order to be able to commit to this style of crime.

02:28:46.500 So I believe internally he realized I get more personally out of attacking with a man present than just just sexually assaulting a lone female.

02:28:59.700 And the thing with the dishes is bizarre, too.

02:29:02.900 I mean, it was his alarm system, as you point out, like if he heard the rattling, he he threatened to escalate it.

02:29:09.220 And as far as I understand, all the victims complied with that.

02:29:12.600 I mean, they they took him very seriously and they tried not to rattle those dishes.

02:29:17.500 D'Angelo is so commanding and threatening.

02:29:22.620 All these males ended up saying, you know, I had no choice.

02:29:27.380 You know, my fear was if the male tried to struggle against his bindings and the dishes rattled, that he would harm their wife or girlfriend.

02:29:36.180 There were times when the men would get uncomfortable because it is very uncomfortable.

02:29:40.160 Their, you know, their hands would hurt from the tight bindings or ankles would hurt from the bindings.

02:29:45.060 They're laying absolutely still. They don't know what's going on.

02:29:49.080 And there were several times when the men would shift with this alarm system of dishes on their back and the dishes would rattle or fall.

02:29:56.460 And D'Angelo was immediately in that room with the gun to the back of the man's head. 0.99

02:30:01.760 He would cock the hammer and say, do that again, and I'll kill you. 0.96

02:30:07.240 So these men were helpless at this point. 0.99

02:30:11.380 They had no control over what was going to happen to them or their wife.

02:30:15.520 The only thing that they could control was, I have to stay still.

02:30:19.660 And this is part of something I've been very outspoken about is, you know, of course, all these women that were sexually assaulted, you know, extraordinarily traumatizing.

02:30:31.040 But a lot of people forget about the victimization of the man.

02:30:36.780 These men, I interviewed several of the men, and I had several of these men crying, either on the phone or in front of me, face to face.

02:30:45.980 After 35 years, they were attacked.

02:30:49.660 And so these men were victims, too. You think about just remove the sexual assault and the woman out of the crime and just think about a masked man breaking into a house, tying a man up, putting a gun to the back of his head and pulling the hammer back and saying, I'm going to kill you. 0.99

02:31:07.320 In many states that practically can qualify as a life sentence in terms of the type of crime. You know, so this is a serious crime in and of itself.

02:31:18.000 So tortured. He's really tortured. Yes. You know, psychologically, emotionally tortured. And D'Angelo knew that. In fact, one man in Danville, California, who was a very large man relative to D'Angelo, you know, D'Angelo could tell this man was not liking and wanted to, you know, liking the predicament and wanting to do something.

02:31:42.600 And D'Angelo tells him, essentially, you don't like this, do you?

02:31:48.680 Well, there's nothing you can do about it.

02:31:51.300 You know, so this is where D'Angelo is expressing that he has power and control over that man.

02:31:56.660 He loved that.

02:31:57.760 That's what the badge gave him.

02:31:59.720 And then that's what, you know, victimizing these couples gave him, because now he was basically asserting himself as being more of a man than these men who were victims.

02:32:10.780 Well, it makes sense from his perspective, because otherwise he would just kill the man.

02:32:15.320 I mean, I'm understanding it better listening to you because one of my questions is, why 0.70

02:32:18.920 didn't he just kill the men? 0.88

02:32:20.080 But he wanted to torture them. 1.00

02:32:22.080 He enjoyed that piece of it.

02:32:23.540 He didn't want to just end it for them.

02:32:26.600 No, and that goes to, you know, this is where the sadistic aspect of him, you know, that

02:32:32.240 getting gratification out of the suffering of others, you know, it's psychological.

02:32:38.800 I mean, he wasn't beating these men. You know, he wasn't doing anything that was physically going to hurt them.

02:32:47.360 But he was instilling fear as he was doing with the women.

02:32:52.160 So, you know, this is where he is a complex offender from a psychological standpoint.

02:32:59.160 And when he goes down south and he's starting to kill and it's really when he's bludgeoning the couples to death.

02:33:07.160 Um, the evolution gets to where he is in essence, he's taking control of the man, but then likely killing that man very early in the attack to minimize that threat.

02:33:19.680 Um, and so he, he changed in terms of what he needed to get out of the, the, the crime, the fantasy of the crime, uh, once he is a full blown killer.

02:33:30.460 But now wait. So before we get to that, we you mentioned he lost his cop job around that time before he moved down south and he lost it.

02:33:39.840 It's such a weird story that he explained what he did and like, why would he do this?

02:33:47.300 You know, this this well-trained criminal who had managed to avoid capture and all these other crimes.

02:33:55.200 What happened to him?

02:33:56.360 Well, July of 1979, up in Citrus Heights, Sacramento, he's off-duty, plainclothes.

02:34:07.260 He goes into just a local convenience store there and shoplifts dog repellent and a hammer and is caught.

02:34:17.480 And Sacramento Sheriff's response, he's arrested.

02:34:21.540 And of course, that's reported back to his police department, Auburn Police Department.

02:34:26.360 And he's now put on administrative leave. So as you would expect. So now they are investigating the shoplifting. And during their internal affairs investigation, they go inside D'Angelo's house, which was up in Auburn at the time.

02:34:44.520 And the police chief told me we found all sorts of stolen commercial property, like power tools still in their boxes, like he had just taken them out of a store, but had never opened it up or tried to sell them.

02:35:00.340 But that was never, you know, part of the case in chief.

02:35:05.480 It was always a shoplifting.

02:35:07.040 And it's like, why is he taking the risk of, you know, shoplifting, you know, when he's

02:35:14.140 the serial killer?

02:35:15.320 But this goes back to Bonnie's assessment of D'Angelo's personality.

02:35:20.600 Rules don't apply.

02:35:21.800 He got a thrill out of doing these little things.

02:35:24.640 Yes.

02:35:25.000 And he probably was doing it all the time.

02:35:27.240 It's just he got caught this one time.

02:35:29.020 in no way do i mean to compare winona rider to this guy but remember when she got arrested for

02:35:35.980 shoplifting and it was at the height of her fame and everyone was so confused it's like why would

02:35:41.420 this very rich very successful celebrity shoplift she could afford anything in that store and i

02:35:48.660 there were a lot of reports on why people do that and and it did relate to the thrill of it you

02:35:53.160 You know, there's something, there's a Jones from like doing it and getting away with it.

02:35:58.520 No, absolutely.

02:35:59.300 You know, and that is really, you know, you talk about Renato Ryder case, you know, that psychology really is also kind of a foundational psychology for D'Angelo doing that kind of thing, as well as escalating up into committing the burglaries.

02:36:17.300 And then he's recognizing he's got fantasies of committing violence against people, which now takes him out well above the psychology of Winona Ryder.

02:36:26.800 Yeah. Fundamentally, it's that gratification. You know, they it's that thrill.

02:36:32.220 So I read something about the police chief shortly after firing D'Angelo.

02:36:39.100 Like D'Angelo showed up at his house. He was almost an intruder. Like, what is that story?

02:36:44.220 Well, this is where when I, you know, we were marching down on genealogy and D'Angelo's name came up.

02:36:52.520 And now I was skeptical that this full time police officer could commit all these crimes across Northern California, like the East Area Rapist did.

02:37:03.480 I end up tracking down the police chief that fired D'Angelo, Nick Willick.

02:37:08.960 And Nick was telling me about, Nick was the one that was D'Angelo's sergeant when D'Angelo first came on board up in Auburn, but also ultimately became the police chief and was chief when D'Angelo shoplifted.

02:37:23.760 So Nick is the one that put D'Angelo on administrative leave and started the IA investigation. And while D'Angelo is on admin leave, Nick told me the story that during this period of time, which would have been in that July, August 1979 timeframe, he's asleep in his house.

02:37:49.300 and his daughter comes into his room and says,

02:37:54.800 Dad, there's a man standing outside my window

02:37:57.960 shining a flashlight into it.

02:38:00.780 And Nick goes, Paul, I rabbited out of my bed

02:38:04.240 and went outside and I could see shoe impressions

02:38:07.140 in the dirt all around the perimeter

02:38:09.320 of the back of my house.

02:38:11.400 And he goes, I know for sure that was D'Angelo.

02:38:14.600 Now, he didn't identify D'Angelo,

02:38:16.700 But he was confident that that was the answer. And when I'm talking to Nick, I'm not letting him know I'm I'm looking at the East Area Rapist or the Golden State Killer case.

02:38:26.080 And once I heard that, I mean, that was where, you know, basically the hairs on my arm stood up.

02:38:32.240 And I was like, yeah, that's exactly what the Golden State Killer would do if he was being terminated by his employer is that vindictive aspect.

02:38:42.500 I'll show you who I am. Yeah. That's really when I started to turn about D'Angelo and his potential

02:38:51.840 to be the Golden State Killer. It doesn't mean he was, but it was like, wow, that was D'Angelo.

02:38:57.200 Because he was on he was on your suspects list. Is that what you're saying? But you didn't.

02:39:00.720 You had a lot of people on your suspects list. Well, at this point, you know, we were working

02:39:06.320 the genealogy angle and his name came up and i had just eliminated a guy in colorado or the team

02:39:13.660 had just eliminated a guy in colorado that's when i turned to to d'angelo going well i might as well

02:39:19.180 look at this this former cop and as i dug in you know i try to reach out to bonnie i'm researching

02:39:26.420 him i'm visiting all sorts of things where he had when i talked to that police chief

02:39:32.400 this is a big phone call i was just checking a box but now it's so painful paul because it's like

02:39:39.260 i'm sure this poor cop is just kicking himself for not looking into it more back then i mean

02:39:45.860 how could he know right but it's like those missed opportunities yes yeah no you know and

02:39:52.200 that's just it is there is no way he could have at that point in time because d'angelo shoplifted

02:39:57.640 that he should be considered. And I know there are probably that the chief received some public

02:40:03.840 criticism after D'Angelo was arrested as the Golden State Killer. And I publicly said,

02:40:08.240 absolutely not. You know, basically he did what he could do to D'Angelo based on the facts.

02:40:13.820 And there's just no connection between the shoplifting and the East Area Rapist attacks

02:40:19.960 that that chief could have even put to it. I'm talking about the moment that he saw somebody

02:40:25.040 had come outside of his house and had shined the light in at his daughter you know like

02:40:31.720 again they're not in any way blaming the guy but it's just like oh god what if he had followed up

02:40:36.260 what if he had all these moments in time he'd like to go back to and have another look at

02:40:41.180 yeah no sure absolutely i mean and that was part you know d'angelo was very good at what he did

02:40:48.560 And that is the prime reason why his series was as long as it was.

02:40:56.560 But there were multiple times within the series where he just flat out got lucky.

02:41:01.940 And that was one of those times.

02:41:03.820 Yes, right.

02:41:05.040 So now he goes south in California and he escalates to just murdering.

02:41:10.600 And when he started just murdering couples, did he get rid of the sexual assault altogether? 0.96

02:41:15.660 No, he still sexually assaulted the women. There's only one attack, well, two attacks down in Southern California where we don't have his DNA. And that's the first attack that went sideways, where basically he's being chased by the off-duty FBI agent in Goleta.

02:41:34.820 And then the second attack, which also happened in almost that same neighborhood, in which it appears that the male slipped his bindings and got up and rushed him, and D'Angelo had to shoot the male, you know, out of, if you want to call it self-defense, and then went over and shot the female in the top of the head while she laid face down on the bed and ran off.

02:41:59.500 So because that attack also kind of went sideways on him, he never got to the stage of sexually assaulting.

02:42:07.980 But down in Ventura, the next attack and every attack after that, yes, he is sexually assaulting the women and also killing the women and men in the cases where men are present.

02:42:21.460 So that and that's where it stood straight through to 1986.

02:42:26.440 um and then what happened

02:42:30.760 just in 1986 he he dropped off the face of the earth you know nobody uh there's no other cases

02:42:39.640 that we can attribute to him um he's you know he's married his at the time of the last attack

02:42:47.520 his wife was two months pregnant with their second daughter i believe um and uh you know

02:42:55.660 Ultimately, they are back up in up in Citrus Heights, you know, living in the house where he was arrested back in 2018.

02:43:06.080 So it wasn't becoming a father necessarily because he was already a dad at the time his wife got pregnant with their second child, obviously.

02:43:15.380 Right. You know, in fact, so the second to last attack in July of 1981 in Santa Barbara, Gregory Sanchez and Sherry Domingo, his wife is seven months pregnant.

02:43:25.100 with their first daughter you know and then he commits this attack at five years go by and we

02:43:31.380 have nothing in those five years and then we have uh may of 1986 in irvine that's when he bludgeons

02:43:39.660 19 year old janelle cruz to death and his wife's pregnant again two seven months pregnant with the

02:43:46.560 second daughter but then after that nothing then they have a third daughter um and no no idea you

02:43:54.600 know, from, you know, why is he not doing anything, you know, but as we talked earlier,

02:44:01.760 at 1986, he's 41 years old. So now he's getting older as an offender. His life circumstances have

02:44:11.420 changed. You know, he's got two daughters moving back up to Sacramento's. I think, you know,

02:44:17.840 this is where he is really slipping back. He's slipping into that mindset. I've got to put the

02:44:23.560 serial predator part of me aside and i'm now going to be you know a father a provider and then

02:44:30.880 ultimately you know he's just becoming a truck mechanic and enjoying life he's out fishing with

02:44:36.700 his buddies that's what i was gonna so how did he pay his bills after he got fired from the police

02:44:41.460 force it's a big mystery uh we don't know uh he uh um hasn't told us what he was doing we haven't

02:44:51.460 found a job that he was doing during the years as the original Night Stalker.

02:44:57.820 Wow.

02:44:58.280 His wife was an attorney. 0.99

02:45:01.360 And I forget exactly when she actually starts making money versus going to school.

02:45:07.240 But he may have been living off of her for a period of time.

02:45:11.640 Now, I believe that there's enough evidence to suggest that D'Angelo, even as an East Area rapist, was moonlighting as a security guard on construction job sites.

02:45:25.600 And now I've had a relative from down south indicate that when D'Angelo is living in Long Beach, seeing a couple of security guard style shirts as well as a gun and a holster hanging in D'Angelo's residence.

02:45:43.220 So I think he's probably still doing security work, which would make sense psychologically for him, because now he still has sort of that, you know, that that power and authority that he had as a full blown peace officer.

02:45:57.680 But just not quite a grocery store.

02:46:01.600 And that may be something that I just don't know about.

02:46:04.900 And one of the things that I did after this case was solved, I was so burnt.

02:46:09.540 I literally pushed away.

02:46:11.260 And I know there's been a lot of investigation into D'Angelo since.

02:46:15.760 And there may be some aspects of D'Angelo that I have not been updated on.

02:46:19.260 That's fine. I mean, you've got your man. That's the thing.

02:46:22.060 I want to get into how you caught him, because that's probably I don't know if it's the most interesting, but it's one of the most interesting things of the story.

02:46:27.460 But before we do that, can I just ask you a couple of psychological issues on him?

02:46:30.740 I know in one of the attacks, he the victim survived because this is how we know this.

02:46:35.980 he sat at the end of the bed and started crying and talking about his mommy like mommy i don't

02:46:43.140 want to be bad or mom i can't remember what it was do we what do we make of that you know well

02:46:49.080 it actually is it is one of these oddities it wasn't just in one case in which victims

02:46:54.120 heard him crying or sobbing you know after the sexual assault and you know we don't know for

02:47:02.400 sure uh you know was this an act was was he trying to just like with the verbal staging was he trying

02:47:09.440 to portray himself differently but then when he's being interviewed that night that he's arrested

02:47:17.520 and he's being left alone he's got his head hung i i'm looking at him and at one point i almost see

02:47:24.180 him looking like he's about to cry and he's talking to himself and then his neighbors would

02:47:30.320 say that, you know, Joe, crazy Joe would be talking to himself. So I think it is possible

02:47:35.700 that, you know, at a certain point in these attacks, some of the statements he's making to

02:47:42.460 himself is what he does and the crime. From a psychological standpoint, an interesting aspect

02:47:51.060 about D'Angelo is I'm not sure he would be characterized as a true psychopath. Everybody

02:47:59.880 assumes he's a psychopath. He doesn't experience empathy. I saw enough acts that he did to his

02:48:07.000 living victims over the course of 50 attacks where I'm going, you know what, he is showing

02:48:11.500 that he is caring about how these victims are feeling. And part of it is MO. If they are getting

02:48:19.180 uncomfortable because they're getting cold, you know, because sometimes they complain about being

02:48:22.620 cold, you put a blanket on them, a pillow under their head. Is this just to keep them appeased

02:48:28.200 So they don't become a problem. Or is he actually truly, you know, showing a level of empathy?

02:48:34.660 And if that's the case, then I question whether he's a psychopath. And then at as time went up, went on during the series, it almost looked like he was struggling with what he was doing.

02:48:47.560 It wasn't it was almost like he was compelled to do these attacks, but knew internally, I don't want to I don't want to do this.

02:48:54.740 And then after the attack, that's when this emotional release would happen and the crying would happen.

02:49:01.740 What what about his wife and his daughters?

02:49:04.840 You know, what have they said?

02:49:08.020 Well, the daughters were absolutely clueless about his past life.

02:49:14.500 You know, they didn't even know that he had been a cop.

02:49:17.620 Um, so obviously D'Angelo and their mom kept a lot of what was happening before the daughters

02:49:26.260 were born secret from them.

02:49:28.660 Um, the wife, Sharon, um, you know, she, they end up getting married in 1973.

02:49:37.560 Uh, she becomes ultimately a divorce attorney and, you know, she has not, um,

02:49:47.620 really engaged with the investigation to the fullest extent. And I have to be careful about

02:49:55.440 how I describe this. The Sacramento DA asked me not to be too blunt about my thoughts.

02:50:03.900 You know, the only thing that I will say along those lines is, you know, D'Angelo and Sharon

02:50:09.960 separated in 1991, yet they were still technically married in 2018 when D'Angelo was arrested.

02:50:19.340 And Sharon's a divorce attorney. So it's really odd that that spousal connection,

02:50:27.340 spousal privilege, was kept intact.

02:50:30.380 Oh, that's riveting information. Sharon, what accountability does she have? What did she know 1.00

02:50:37.400 and when did she know it that's awful i mean you got to feel for these daughters who at some point

02:50:42.040 you know were delivered the news that their father i saw prolific i saw the i saw the uh

02:50:49.800 the middle daughter you know the two younger daughters they were at sacramental homicide that

02:50:54.660 night and they i saw them sobbing an fbi agent had been assigned to to basically tell them why

02:51:02.180 their father was in custody um and uh they both were allowed to go in separately to talk to their

02:51:10.620 dad and he he basically kicked them out so couldn't face don't know i've said you know

02:51:17.400 you know they really are victims of his you know uh yeah and it's it's so sad and you know what's

02:51:25.940 what's pitiful is that they've received death threats you know and it's like no they have

02:51:30.320 nothing to do with what d'angelo did he is solely responsible for these attacks and you know now

02:51:37.140 these two two girls are having to you know figure out how their life is going to to work moving

02:51:43.160 forward boy back to the wife sharon and i'll just speculate this isn't you but it does make you

02:51:48.740 wonder if in 1991 she found something you know usually these serial killers keep some sort of

02:51:53.980 treasures from their crime scenes they can't let the entire thing go because they're important to

02:52:00.180 reliving the sick moments and it does make you wonder whether she found something that led her

02:52:06.420 to get out of there but was smart enough not to well i don't know not smart enough i don't mean

02:52:11.920 that i mean most of us would run to the police to say my god but she had children and at some

02:52:17.040 point grandchildren and that does complicate it yeah you know and i i would say 1991 is probably

02:52:23.780 you know whatever happened in 91 that caused them to separate is probably just the tip of the

02:52:28.720 iceberg in terms of uh d'angelo and sharon's relationship well did bonnie shed any light on

02:52:35.520 weird sexual predilections with you know anything about that no you know outside outside of um

02:52:46.080 um his his ability to be able to

02:52:51.960 repeatedly have sex in a very short time frame um that was really the only thing that she brought

02:53:00.740 up that seemed to really stand out to her which which is consistent with what happened during

02:53:05.820 these crimes it wasn't just one rape and he was out of there he he repeatedly assaulted the women

02:53:10.460 sexually that that is right you know and sometimes you know sometimes these attacks would last over

02:53:16.460 the course of hours but sometimes he's repeatedly sexually assaulting uh you know to the point of

02:53:22.240 of ejaculation uh within a very short time frame so there is some consistency from a physical

02:53:28.060 aspect with what bonnie's recollection of their interactions were like uh but she does not she did

02:53:34.360 not uh she does not remember anything that would indicate that he enjoyed violence you know during

02:53:43.560 the course of sex. And quite frankly, D'Angelo, when he's sexually assaulting these women,

02:53:50.820 obviously it's an act of violence, but he is not the type of a rapist that is punching these women 0.99

02:53:58.860 as he's having sex with them. He's only striking them when they fight him back. And there are times 0.97

02:54:07.460 when it appears that he's enjoying and engaging in more of a consensual type of sexual encounter

02:54:14.340 than an actual rape where he's making the woman put high heel shoes on and having her straddle

02:54:19.480 him while he's up on the sofa like he's living out a fantasy of being with her versus you know

02:54:26.300 these really assertive rapists that are using derogatory terms and striking the women or holding

02:54:32.360 knives against their throats you know outside of having to control these doing things to control 0.93

02:54:36.880 the women. D'Angelo wasn't like that.

02:55:06.880 For a limited time, pick some up today and while you're at it, check out Footy Prime daily.

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02:55:40.000 forgive me for going back to this and i don't know if there are any lessons that we can extrapolate

02:55:49.020 because every crime is different but i i want one you know i want one for myself and for my

02:55:54.140 loved ones and for all the people out there is there any lesson from this series of murders on

02:56:00.900 don't comply you know run scream or no because it seems like whatever you did with this guy

02:56:08.000 it was going to end badly yeah you know this is and i've been asked this type of question

02:56:15.440 like i'll talk at citizens academies and the women will say what do i do if i'm being attacked

02:56:20.960 yeah and it really comes down to you you do have to fight there's no question from the very

02:56:28.800 beginning. You have to fight, you have to make noise, but recognize that there is a type of

02:56:34.460 offender that that is what he wants. And that is your sexual sadist. So a sexual sadist is somebody 0.98

02:56:42.800 who gets more amped up. The more you fight, the more you scream, the more pain that offender can 0.98

02:56:50.760 inflict on the woman. And so there are examples. In fact, I have a 1969 victim. You know, she was

02:56:57.500 being attacked. She was trying to fight in the front seat of a car, and she realized she was

02:57:03.800 going to be dead. She's looking out the window at nature and the sunlight, and she starts stroking

02:57:09.640 the back of the guy's neck as he's raping her. The guy literally just stopped. He didn't want 0.96

02:57:18.440 that. He wanted her fear and her fight. There's another case example out of the Pacific Northwest 0.69

02:57:26.140 of a guy who's using a knife in a pickup truck on a woman. And she realizes she's dead and she

02:57:32.460 just lays there and he pushes up and walks out. This is your sexual sadist. Once the woman goes 1.00

02:57:39.820 limp, he's not getting what he wants. So my recommendation is always fight, fight, fight.

02:57:46.180 But if that is not working, if this guy is too powerful and he just seems to be amping up the

02:57:53.260 more you fight just briefly, you know, do the opposite. Give it a try. What happens? Give it

02:57:59.540 a try. But if that doesn't work, then you got to fight for your life. You just have to. Yeah. Be a

02:58:06.540 difficult victim. Be a difficult victim, especially in the case of abductions. You know, do not go

02:58:11.120 along. He's got a gun. Get in the car. Do not do that. Run, zigzag, serpentine, yell. Try it right

02:58:18.440 there to not get in that car. Yeah. I tell my kids, if somebody grabs them and starts pulling

02:58:23.860 them to a vehicle, and I don't care if they've got a gun or a knife, you do everything to prevent

02:58:30.140 yourself from getting to that vehicle. Being shot or stabbed there is going to be so much better 0.57

02:58:38.180 than what they're going to do to you once they get you to the location they want to take you.

02:58:43.200 Yes. Do not comply. The, it does make me wonder about his childhood. You know, what do we know? Abuse, sexual abuse, torture, like what happened during his childhood?

02:58:57.620 You know, I, I don't have a lot of information on his childhood and I don't think there's a ton of information out there.

02:59:05.580 What we do know was when his dad was military stationed over in Germany and D'Angelo and his younger sister, Connie, were walking and two soldiers abduct them.

02:59:20.860 And D'Angelo watches these two soldiers rape his sister.

02:59:26.040 He's 10 years old at the time.

02:59:28.720 Obviously, a very traumatic event for a 10 year old boy to see.

02:59:33.000 Um, but in terms of the family dynamics, I have not been updated to see if there's been

02:59:40.380 anything, um, that has been discovered.

02:59:45.220 Yeah, that would explain.

02:59:46.100 And Bonnie's, you know, Bonnie's dating D'Angelo.

02:59:49.640 She's younger.

02:59:50.620 She, I think was 19 and he's, you know, in his twenties, but she knew, you know, his,

02:59:57.020 uh, his mom.

02:59:58.000 And I think at this time it's his, uh, his stepdad.

03:00:01.240 And she said, I didn't see anything that was really alarming.

03:00:05.540 You know, his mom was one of the sweetest persons that she had ever met.

03:00:09.000 So it wasn't like that prototypical, you know, the, you know, the overbearing mother and the, you know, drunk, alcoholic, abusive father.

03:00:18.340 Bonnie didn't see that at this point in D'Angelo's life.

03:00:22.420 Okay, so let's go forward to the end. 0.98

03:00:26.000 I should spend one minute on Michelle McNamara.

03:00:30.240 so people may remember this this piece of the story she was married to Patton Oswalt and she

03:00:36.980 died suddenly and he came out and talked about her and her work and I think that got a lot of

03:00:43.680 our attention like what's he talking about this famous guy his wife suddenly died and he was

03:00:48.080 talking about her work on this case and you came to know her very well and had spent a lot of hours

03:00:54.940 working with her she was a writer i mean she wasn't a cop uh on this case and um i thought

03:01:04.040 what you said about you know she died of a drug overdose it looks like you know potentially even

03:01:09.960 an inadvertent drug overdose right just taking a bunch of self-medicating i should say and um

03:01:15.840 so yeah yeah i'll let you speak to it but i i know you've said you have to understand what's

03:01:21.180 going on in her life to get the full picture of her death.

03:01:26.520 Right. And that, you know, with Michelle, you know, she initially, she was a true crime blogger.

03:01:34.780 You know, she loved to write. She was blogging about cases. She found out about this unsolved

03:01:39.720 case and eventually wrote an article for Los Angeles magazine. And in the lead up for that

03:01:47.680 article, she reached out to the task force and, you know, interviewed each of us. And Michelle and

03:01:54.300 I, you know, initially I just treated her as, you know, just another journalist. And I was very kind

03:02:00.460 of standoffish, the Joe Friday type. But then as time went on, you know, I recognized she's very

03:02:07.660 bright. She knew the facts of the case. And I really enjoyed, you know, at that time, our phone

03:02:13.860 conversations and eventually divulge what I was doing investigatively to her, but off the record,

03:02:22.900 and was so scared about when her Los Angeles Magazine article came out, you know, did she

03:02:28.500 burn me in terms of what I told her? And she didn't. And she earned my trust. And then we

03:02:33.420 just developed a closer working relationship and a closer relationship where when she's contracted

03:02:39.980 to write a book about the case. She asked me if I thought that was a good idea, and she reached out

03:02:44.980 to some of the other investigators. But then she came up, and we drove around, and I drove her to

03:02:49.460 crime scenes, and we spent all this time together in a car chatting about the case, but chatting

03:02:54.520 about our personal lives, and that's when we really, really bonded. And then at that point,

03:02:59.620 I was wide open with her on what I'm doing. She was, instead of just writing a book, she now

03:03:06.040 kind of got sucked into the rabbit hole and was starting to do the investigations.

03:03:09.980 Um, and this is where, you know, this case, it's such a rollercoaster ride of emotions because, you know, you work so hard to develop a suspect and you get excited, you get high that I've got this case, I've got this guy only to have DNA show that it's not the right guy.

03:03:27.800 And Michelle started to experience that roller coaster ride, you know, which is which is tough.

03:03:35.140 But also she's talking to the victims, you know, victim family members.

03:03:40.460 She's recognizing the trauma. She's thinking about these cases and had access to case files.

03:03:46.360 So she knew exactly what this guy was doing, you know.

03:03:49.960 And so now she's experiencing the trauma, you know, that law enforcement experiences when they're working these types of cases.

03:03:57.400 And this is where I think, and I didn't know this, but it appears, you know, now she's, you know, self-medicating.

03:04:05.200 And unfortunately, it caught her.

03:04:08.140 And one of the drugs in her system was fentanyl, unfortunately.

03:04:12.140 It deemed an accidental overdose from a lethal mix of Adderall, Xanax, and fentanyl.

03:04:17.980 No one was aware that she was self-medicating.

03:04:20.300 But I know you write in the book, few people know the pressures of the woeful world of homicide.

03:04:26.380 it's a dreadful place and not one to be entered lightly no one leaves unscathed not even the

03:04:33.540 hardened professionals michelle was a wife and a mom by day and living among psychopaths and

03:04:39.500 their victims in the dark of night that's chilling it says so much so much paul well and you know

03:04:48.180 one of the last communications i had with michelle was an email she sent me and she has taken her

03:04:54.800 young daughter to a Girl Scout camp just north of Santa Barbara. And she emailed me, you know,

03:05:03.560 letting me know, hey, I'm going to be off the grid, so to speak, for a few days. But she goes,

03:05:07.720 it's so surreal to be with my daughter in the car driving past the same exits that the Golden

03:05:13.600 State Killer would have taken for his attacks in Santa Barbara. And I could only envision the

03:05:20.120 show with her cute little girl looking at these exits and starting to visualize the attacks,

03:05:28.460 you know, and you don't want to be with your little girl and thinking about what happened

03:05:33.320 to those victims, you know, and this is part of those interconnections, you know, that you make

03:05:39.480 where now your family life is crossing over with your professional life. And it is tough,

03:05:46.740 You know, and there's you have to you cope with it however you cope with it.

03:05:52.260 And, you know, for me, I have my own coping mechanisms and Michelle had hers.

03:05:57.560 Yeah. Like, how do you go out after a day?

03:06:00.280 And I've spared the audience the most gruesome details of his crimes because they truly are dark marks on your soul once you've read them.

03:06:08.280 And I'm sure once you've read them at your level, how do you go out and have a dinner with your family?

03:06:13.180 How do you watch a sitcom and manage a laugh?

03:06:16.740 well that you know like that's where you detach that's where i detached uh you know because for me

03:06:26.020 when i was working you know i'm always thinking about the case um but you you mentioned the you

03:06:32.740 know enjoying a sitcom you know to this day i can't get myself to to read a book or sit down

03:06:38.660 and watch a movie right now it's where I have just completely um tuned turned away from

03:06:49.360 trying to pursue things that are just entertaining and and that's where I have to get myself back

03:06:56.700 you know to where I can start enjoying just the normal activities in life um and it is it is hard

03:07:03.700 You know, that's for it for people. It's not everybody that gets into this field.

03:07:08.820 But for people who really care about the cases, care about the victims, those are the people that are the most strongly affected.

03:07:17.540 Because every minute of the day that you're not working on the case, you could be working on the case and working on the case is hugely important.

03:07:27.380 That's just it. I've been called on that before. You know, hey, you're no longer at work.

03:07:33.240 Well, you know, if your daughter was just killed or sexually assaulted and now the investigator is punching out at five o'clock and going home, I think you'd be a little upset.

03:07:45.180 You're expecting this public servant, the investigator, to do everything possible as fast as possible to find out who did this.

03:07:55.340 And that's the hard part. That's the balance of working this type of work is I've got a family, I've got a personal life, but I've also got this commitment. And that commitment, when you really get attached to cases like for me with Golden State Killer and other cases, that commitment ends up becoming overriding of everything else.

03:08:17.520 hmm when he stopped with the with the spree the murder spree in 86 you were uh in your late teens

03:08:28.260 you were not a cop working this case that would come later that would come later where you picked

03:08:34.360 up a cold case file and the next thing you knew quarter century had passed and you had devoted the

03:08:41.780 vast majority of your life to this thing that's right in fact 1986 i was a senior in high school

03:08:48.040 yeah so and then you should get you got to read the book which you can see the picture of it

03:08:53.880 behind paul now unmasked um to find out like his early thoughts on dna from these crime scenes and

03:09:00.900 how could they be helpful and like let's get a let's get him in the system just in case this

03:09:05.100 guy gets arrested so there'll be a hit and stuff like you'd been working all of that from the

03:09:09.660 moment you got involved in this as a law enforcement officer. But let's jump forward

03:09:14.260 to, you know, close to the end when you had a different idea and then you started studying it

03:09:19.640 nonstop, of course, because you're you, about genealogy and what it's not working. We're not

03:09:25.400 getting a hit on this guy just by having the DNA in the system. What's another way we can use the

03:09:29.840 DNA to advance the case? Right. You know, I go back a little bit even further with genealogy.

03:09:38.860 I started pursuing a type of genealogy in 2012, thinking this possibly could solve the case.

03:09:45.160 And after five years, it hadn't.

03:09:48.740 And I was frustrated then just out of a sheer coincidence.

03:09:57.300 I had another case with an unidentified little girl.

03:10:03.080 She was alive, but we didn't know who she was.

03:10:06.100 We're sure she had been abducted from somewhere. And I went into a conference call with a detective

03:10:12.220 out of San Bernardino down south, and he had identified her. And I was like, how did you do

03:10:19.620 that? And he had gone to a website called DNAadoption.com and worked with a genealogist

03:10:26.460 that was doing a completely different type of genealogy process with DNA than what I had been

03:10:33.500 doing the last five years. So now I reach out to that genealogist, Barbara Ray Venter, and I ask,

03:10:40.520 hey, with what you're doing to identify that little girl, would it work to identify an unknown

03:10:46.260 offender? And she was like, no, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't. And I sent her what I had,

03:10:52.900 but she didn't know what case it was. But then she stopped communicating. So I was left to my

03:10:57.000 own devices to try to figure out, well, how is this process working? And that's when myself and

03:11:02.220 then I had a partner on this, Steve Kramer from the FBI, we're doing a deep dive. And since I had

03:11:08.920 the DNA background, and I'm literally watching YouTube videos and reading website information,

03:11:15.200 I'm going, Oh, my God, this is powerful. And I go, I got excited. This is how this case can be

03:11:21.260 solved. And that's what we pursued. And then we just had to get DNA. And I had to get DNA from

03:11:27.860 an agency down south with a homicide case where they still had their evidence and then ultimately

03:11:34.420 Ventura DA's office stepped up and gave us a sample of the Golden State killer's DNA so we

03:11:39.720 could do this genealogy process. Okay so now you've got it and you've been working with it for a while

03:11:45.800 you'd been earlier on and again people should read the book but looking at the rape kits that

03:11:50.100 had been taken from his victims that were no longer prosecutable so it was okay to you know

03:11:54.560 test them and deal with them, but respectful of the DNA samples and all that.

03:11:59.720 You've been thinking about the DNA for quite some time.

03:12:01.880 So now you're at the point where they give you a sample.

03:12:04.180 You know, this is the killer's DNA.

03:12:06.580 And what year is this, 2017 or 18?

03:12:10.080 We are right at the end of 2017 and the beginning of 2018 when we get our first DNA results.

03:12:17.820 Okay.

03:12:18.180 So what do you do with that DNA?

03:12:19.780 What's done to it that's different than what was normally done to it?

03:12:24.560 So, forensic DNA testing used by law enforcement uses a DNA tool that looks at discrete areas on the DNA that's known as short tandem repeats.

03:12:41.960 It's just right now they're looking at 21 different markers that are going up into the FBI's DNA database, which is called CODIS.

03:12:52.880 The genealogy process is the process that your major genealogy websites do in the background, like Ancestry and 23andMe, where you send your saliva sample in.

03:13:08.900 And instead of just looking at 21 markers, they're looking at hundreds of thousands of points across the entire genome.

03:13:18.660 And then once that type of profile, which is now called a SNP profile, is put up into a database and searched against others, it's able to look for other people that kind of cross over and share DNA fragments with you.

03:13:39.360 And the more DNA they share with you, the more closely related they are.

03:13:44.240 And the opposite is true.

03:13:45.620 The less DNA they share with you, the further related they are.

03:13:50.080 And you can get a sense on how close or how distantly related by how much DNA is shared.

03:13:55.460 So you can tell, well, this is likely a first cousin.

03:13:58.600 This is pretty close to me.

03:13:59.920 Or this is a fourth cousin.

03:14:01.680 This is very distantly related.

03:14:03.440 So now with that type of information and a list of potential relatives, it's a matter of just doing traditional genealogy, building family trees back in time until you find where these potential relatives intersect.

03:14:19.940 They're descendants of a common ancestor.

03:14:22.700 But it required them, it required some of the Golden State Killer's relatives to have gone through the 23andMe or Ancestry.com process.

03:14:30.780 or other websites yes yeah so these these are you know with with the angelo our initial searches

03:14:39.880 the closest relatives were third cousins so they're related at the great great grandparent

03:14:44.760 level and for somebody of his generation these were individuals the common ancestor were

03:14:51.680 individuals born in the 1840s oh boy that's not that helpful so then what well now it's you get

03:14:59.020 this common ancestor it's like okay the golden state killer is a descendant from this great

03:15:04.860 great grandparents so you have to identify everybody that you know are offspring of these

03:15:11.860 this common ancestor and again it's just genealogy but part of the complexity is is people in the

03:15:18.300 1840s would have 15 kids some would you know die at birth some wouldn't make it to uh you know

03:15:26.300 were there actually having children themselves. So this tree, as we're building, identifying all

03:15:33.820 the descendants, becomes huge. But we know something about the Golden State Killer. He is

03:15:41.980 a man born between the years 1940 and 1960 by best estimates. We knew his physical size and we knew

03:15:50.740 his geographic footprint, you know, from Sacramento down to Southern California. So as we're building

03:15:58.140 these trees, we're now identifying men who had a California connection. And then it's just

03:16:03.280 investigation 101. Could this person, you know, match up circumstantially with the person we're

03:16:11.180 looking for? And that's where we get into just a small handful of individuals that required a little

03:16:16.620 bit further investigative work and after eliminating each of these other individuals who

03:16:22.880 to this day have no idea they were being eyeballed that's when i turned to d'angelo he was sort of

03:16:30.260 the last one on the list and what was that like for you before the arrest before all that when

03:16:37.240 you're you got this one last name as you say you start to check boxes and it's like bonnie

03:16:43.820 law enforcement like you start checking the boxes what was that feeling like

03:16:48.760 well i i also had the pressure i was retiring so am i going to get this figured out before i retire

03:16:58.320 um and i had been there before uh i had multiple suspects i had other men that had bonnies in

03:17:07.300 their past that were eliminated with dna that were also rapists uh who had geographic connections

03:17:12.060 to some of the areas. So some of this circumstantial stuff that I'm using to evaluate

03:17:18.440 D'Angelo, well, I had other suspects who had been eliminated that also had that circumstantial stuff.

03:17:23.660 So you kind of become, I was a little bit numb to that. It was just like, okay, there's enough

03:17:29.780 here that requires me to be much more involved than just sitting behind a computer. And that's

03:17:37.020 when I start reaching out and driving up to Sacramento and taking a look at the locations

03:17:41.980 where D'Angelo is at, researching, you know, going into the Sacramento recorder's office and looking

03:17:47.700 for, you know, deeds and where he's purchased houses or what properties he's owned. And then

03:17:53.000 ultimately, you know, reaching out to the Auburn police chief who fired him. And once I kind of

03:17:58.480 gathered all that, I was like, oh, this guy now is very interesting circumstantially. We got onto

03:18:06.460 him because of DNA. Uh, and, uh, he's now what I would classify as a prime suspect where it's now

03:18:16.120 we should get DNA from him. Um, and my, my bud, Steve Kramer was in full agreement. Uh, but now

03:18:23.600 I am, I'm retiring in two days. No, I couldn't. I couldn't. I made the decision, you know, six

03:18:34.880 months prior. And it had to do with personal financial deadline. Can't you just say, I'm just

03:18:40.100 going to do four more. I'm like, I'm seeing this case through to the end. What does it even matter?

03:18:43.600 Even if you retire, can you no longer work on it? Well, from a retirement standpoint,

03:18:50.760 you know, just the way the pension system works, they really encourage you to retire at age 50,

03:18:56.340 you know, from a sheer financial purpose. But I had made the decision. I'd already been out

03:19:02.720 to colorado with my wife shopping for homes you know and and we had a schedule to to go out my

03:19:09.600 kids were going to be transferring schools and so everything in my personal life really was like this

03:19:15.580 is the time i need to retire even though we were so close on golden state killer but weren't you

03:19:21.280 allowed to continue working on it even post-retirement like what would what would change

03:19:25.000 from friday of goodbye to the monday of i no longer work here

03:19:29.780 Yeah, I wouldn't have peace officer privileges in terms of the accessing criminal databases, you know, going out and being able to identify myself as a sworn investigator if I'm talking to people. So I'm a civilian once I retire.

03:19:48.640 There's no like, you know, day pass for a day.

03:19:53.100 Well, the way it worked out, though, is that once I did retire, the genealogy team that I was working with, which was a group of six of us, they kept me on board.

03:20:04.180 They kept communicating with me as if I was still active.

03:20:08.760 You know, and that's why you're the expert on the case.

03:20:11.300 They needed your expertise. They needed you as much as you wanted to be with them.

03:20:16.000 And I yeah, I brought something to the table on the case.

03:20:19.380 And then ultimately, you know, when D'Angelo is arrested, I helped author the the arrest warrant and provided information for the search warrant, you know, up at Sac Homicide.

03:20:33.080 And again, I was so appreciative that Sacramento Sheriff's Office, you know, kept me involved in the case.

03:20:39.020 So I was able to.

03:20:40.000 You're the grateful ones.

03:20:40.860 They're the grateful ones.

03:20:42.540 All right.

03:20:43.160 Wait, back up, though, because we got to get to arrest.

03:20:46.020 So now something big needs to happen.

03:20:48.660 you got your prime suspect but you don't have his dna i mean you may you have an old sample of it

03:20:55.880 but you need a present day sample from this man you've identified as d'angelo and um tell us what

03:21:02.700 happened there because there were two passes at it so yeah so i i had driven up to his house

03:21:09.040 and you know seen his car in the driveway knew he was living there and that was last literally the

03:21:15.100 last thing I did and debated if I should get a DNA sample, just knock on his door and say,

03:21:21.180 hey, Joe, this is Paul Holtz and blah, blah, blah. You know, can I get a DNA sample and eliminate

03:21:26.600 him? But I decided there was too much on him and drove away. I then retire the next day.

03:21:32.660 But then once I'm retired, we get him under surveillance. And so Sacramento, Homicide and

03:21:39.500 FBI start surveilling him. And at a certain point, he drives to a Hobby Lobby and he actually had a

03:21:47.700 hobby of building these remote controlled airplanes out of wood. So he's going there Hobby Lobby as

03:21:54.800 he's building another plane. And while he's at the Hobby Lobby, an undercover agent swabs his car door

03:22:03.520 handle. And that's submitted to the Sacramento Lab. I happen to be in Colorado Springs buying a

03:22:10.740 house during this time. And I'm getting updated on how the surveillance is going. And I'm at P.F.

03:22:20.000 Chang's with my wife celebrating putting an offer on a house. And Lieutenant Kirk Campbell from

03:22:27.100 SACDA's office was calling me. I figured it's another update on the case. I excused myself.

03:22:32.360 I go stand outside. It's snowing. And instead of the typical salutation, hey, Paul, how's it going?

03:22:39.840 It's Paul, you can't tell anybody this. I was like, oh, this is here's something.

03:22:46.900 And Kirk tells me, hey, I don't know exactly what it means, but we got that car door handle.

03:22:52.660 The DNA results back and and the lab's really excited.

03:22:58.060 There's a lot of markers that are matching up with the Golden State Killer.

03:23:01.200 And I was, and Kirk's not a DNA guy. And I said, okay, Kirk, how many markers? And he said, well, they got, they got 21 markers.

03:23:11.480 Kirk, it's him. So, so now we finish up that conversation. I go back into the restaurant and I'm, I'm now, you know, kind of, kind of in this weird state. I've been on this case for 24 years. I now know DeAngelo's a golden state killer.

03:23:30.240 And so I'm in this numb space emotionally. I sit back down. My wife is super excited because her fortune cookie is saying, you know, you're going to find your dream home.

03:23:42.340 And we had just put, you know, an offer down on the house, the house that I'm sitting in right now, in fact.

03:23:48.160 and uh she just happened to say no so so what did kirk want and i i didn't know what to say

03:23:55.380 because i i was like i'm not going to just say you know hey it's him because i don't want her

03:23:59.300 blowing up in the middle of the restaurant right and she is a dna analyst and so um i just kind of

03:24:06.440 look at her and and she i don't do anything and she looks at me and she says well are the dna

03:24:11.900 results back. And I just do a single nod. And she was like, well, and I didn't do anything.

03:24:19.460 I'm just staring at her. And she goes, no. And all I did is another single nod. And then she's

03:24:27.020 like, practically pushing me out of the restaurant to get into our rental vehicle so she can hear

03:24:32.780 what exactly is going on. And then as I'm letting her know, and she's super excited,

03:24:37.060 That's when Steve Kramer calls me because now he knows. And then it's it's game on because now it's no longer surveillance. It's it's an arrest has to be affected.

03:24:48.180 Interviews need to occur. And it's a lot of work. So that's where I end up flying back to California.

03:24:56.700 wait wait what did your fortune cookie say i could i couldn't tell you it was one of those

03:25:04.260 things where you know i i was so because my wife was excited open up your fortune cookie and and

03:25:09.680 i was just so focused on golden state killer i did it and i just kind of dropped it on the plate

03:25:14.940 and that's when she starts asking what kirk wanted right you know you make your own fortune

03:25:18.840 make your own fortune all right so you got it and by the way my wife's a huge fan of yours she

03:25:23.260 listens to your stuff all the time oh tell her i said my regards and i'm already a huge fan of hers

03:25:28.920 um that i can feel her excitement in this moment i wouldn't have known whether to leave or to order

03:25:33.960 like a double martini you know it's like oh what do i do i'm not sure i'm technically retired but

03:25:39.520 yeah i think i need to go back so but there was they did a second pass at it right they did they

03:25:44.380 decided the da who i also interviewed um who was in who was running this the woman uh forgive me i

03:25:50.160 forget her name right now. Anne-Marie Schubert. She was like, let's be really sure, right? And

03:25:57.180 that's when there was a dumpster dive, right? Somebody took his garbage. You guys took his

03:26:01.980 garbage. Right. No, and in part, you know, the car door handle, of course, multiple people, 0.98

03:26:07.140 you know, touch a car door. And so even though everything, the 21 markers, you know, were shared

03:26:13.960 with Golden State Killer, there was a second person in that sample and DNA. And so that's

03:26:21.340 where Anne Marie, her office were like, no, we want a better sample. So now trash day is,

03:26:29.880 I believe it was Tuesday or Monday, but Sacramento has a very clever way to collect

03:26:40.500 trash without it being noticed and i'm not going to divulge the process because they like to use

03:26:45.300 that on a on a regular basis great but they were able to get his trash collected and they you know

03:26:51.580 ken clark the the the homicide sergeant from sacramento and and lieutenant paul bella you

03:26:58.780 know i've heard the story is as they're filtering through the trash that was collected from d'angelo

03:27:03.720 they're selecting items that look like the most promising to have his dna on them and they got

03:27:10.220 11 items. And then the last item that they looked at said, oh, there's a piece of tissue over there.

03:27:15.200 We might as well grab it. What would it hurt? Well, that turned out to be the actual evidence

03:27:21.260 item that came back with D'Angelo's single source DNA profile and 100% matched the Golden State

03:27:28.700 Killer. Wow. You had your man. That was it. I think in your book, I'm trying to remember,

03:27:36.480 there was a line something like that the face of evil had been identified after all these years

03:27:42.220 you knew who it was who'd been taking up your life your life's work and you were going to be

03:27:49.920 able to provide that to the victims who had survived his attacks whose lives he had all

03:27:56.160 but ruined in so many cases and so many lives he had taken what a huge huge moment for law

03:28:02.100 enforcement for you everyone involved and i just i can't even imagine the flow of emotions when you

03:28:08.280 actually got to see him in cuffs and be at the at the da's office that night yeah and again it was

03:28:14.940 it was such a surreal moment because now that this this uh masked man that i've been chasing

03:28:21.500 for 24 years, there he is unmasked. And such a weird place to be. I can't even describe the

03:28:32.340 emotion because in part, you know, I still had a lot of work that needed to be done that night,

03:28:37.340 as well as the following day. But at the same time, there was a sense of accomplishment. And

03:28:47.440 And it was like, OK, you know, this this is this is a big deal.

03:28:52.460 And personally, I am very gratified that I had a role in getting the Golden State Killer here in handcuffs, sitting in an interview room. 0.80

03:29:05.160 Crazy. So what did he say when when the cops went up to him?

03:29:09.620 I know they decided we got to go now and they got him on this on his side lawn.

03:29:14.280 what what happened did he say anything what was he like well again you know they they ended up

03:29:21.680 using a specialized team uh because he was such a threat if you think about who this man is

03:29:30.280 d'angelo he's a law enforcement officer he's a serial killer he has shot at a cop in his past

03:29:37.060 down in visalia he had more guns registered to him over the years than what the california

03:29:43.840 a firearms database could print out at once. And, you know, we were so concerned that he would fight,

03:29:54.640 he would be armed, he would take his daughter hostage, grandkids hostage. So, you know,

03:30:02.120 the hope was, is that he would be arrested away from his house. And they were going to do a

03:30:07.640 very covert type of arrest, but that didn't play out. And so they had to arrest him in front of

03:30:14.820 his house. But fortunately, he moved himself over to the side yard where he was a lot isolated from

03:30:20.460 from doors and stuff. And then they approached him. And there was some interactions. And those

03:30:27.620 interactions are part of the sheriff's specialized arrest team that I'm not going to divulge.

03:30:33.920 but he was quickly taken into custody by, uh, you know, multiple individuals. Each individual

03:30:41.640 had to control a limb and, uh, he's handcuffed and placed in the back of a van. And then that's

03:30:47.360 when he makes that, that famous statement. Uh, I've got a roast in the oven. Yeah. Crazy.

03:30:53.820 So he winds up obviously being charged and he pleads guilty. I mean, there was no way around

03:31:01.160 And they're really realistically to talk about having him dead to rights, that there was just no way around it.

03:31:06.440 He had he had to plead guilty if he wanted to spare himself the death penalty.

03:31:11.100 Yes, he had to plead guilty. But the the notable aspect about his his plea deal is he had to admit to everything.

03:31:23.020 So he over the course of the series, you know, some of the cases in northern California that were not homicides, he could not be prosecuted for because there were past statute of limitations.

03:31:35.940 And we wanted all of those victims to have that sense that their case was just as important as the other cases that he could be prosecuted for.

03:31:48.260 So he pled guilty to everything that he was charged with. But then he also admitted to all those other cases that he wasn't charged with. So it's a very interesting process that occurred.

03:32:00.960 So he did, right? I mean, he did list the crimes. Do we believe he listed all the crimes for which he was responsible?

03:32:07.980 You know, he he didn't list the crimes. The crimes were these are the crimes.

03:32:15.040 And then him and his attorneys basically had him plead, plead guilty or admit to them in a court of law.

03:32:22.640 Now, if he has other crimes out there and there are crimes that he could be prosecuted for, if there's other homicides out there, 0.97

03:32:30.660 he would be stupid to have not thrown those out of the table during that plea deal, 0.88

03:32:36.500 Because now he can still be prosecuted, prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, including the death penalty on those cases. 0.99

03:32:44.840 So the court held a hearing, of course, and did allow victim testimony, which is so important.

03:32:51.520 It's such an important piece of this.

03:32:53.080 And one of those to testify, we have a short soundbite, was a woman named Mary Berward, who was only 13 years old when she was attacked by the Golden State Killer.

03:33:06.240 Here's that soundbite in part number three.

03:33:08.680 On June 25th, 1979, at 4 a.m., Joseph James D'Angelo forced his way into my home, into my life, into my room.

03:33:23.080 A child's room, personally decorated with hand-painted hearts and rainbows,

03:33:31.460 quotes about love and kindness. 0.99

03:33:35.080 He raped me. 0.98

03:33:36.720 He stole my innocence, my security, threatened my life, threatened the lives of my family. 0.99

03:33:44.940 I was 13 years old.

03:33:46.960 No 13-year-old should have to find out what a rape kit is.

03:33:53.080 and then it turned out i had been ovulating so steps were taken to prevent a pregnancy

03:34:03.020 oh my god talk about putting a real face on just a list of victims you know that that brings it

03:34:13.520 home not that the judge was ever gonna go light on this guy but it's somewhat cathartic i've

03:34:19.540 talked to enough victims to know it's somewhat cathartic to just have your say yeah mary you

03:34:27.740 know i had reached out to her about 10 years prior and we chatted briefly on the phone i want to come

03:34:34.540 in and have a face-to-face talk it's just too too much for her to do at that point in her life

03:34:39.440 but i always had her number in my cell phone and so after the press conference where we announced

03:34:49.100 D'Angelo was arrested. I'm driving to lunch to meet the genealogy team. And Mary calls me.

03:34:58.200 And I answer it. Hi, Mary. And she asks, and is such a meek voice on the phone. Is it him? Is it

03:35:09.940 really him? And I told her, yes, it's him and he will never get out. And she starts to sob.

03:35:19.100 And after sobbing for five seconds, 10 seconds, she's just going, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm not upset.

03:35:29.000 I am so, so happy. And here, after 30 some odd years, this 13 year old girl, now as an adult woman, you know, those 30 years of trauma were pouring out.

03:35:42.160 And, you know, to see her be so strong in confronting him was amazing.

03:35:49.540 Oh, my gosh, Paul.

03:35:51.480 And the relief she must have felt to know this.

03:35:55.420 He cannot hurt anyone ever again.

03:35:57.680 He can put no other children, women, men through this.

03:36:02.800 He did speak.

03:36:03.960 He did speak two days later, August 21st, 2020.

03:36:09.500 As you point out, he hasn't said much.

03:36:11.580 But we have a little bit of what he did say in soundbite four.

03:36:16.560 I've listened to all your statements.

03:36:24.740 Each one of them.

03:36:33.560 And I'm truly sorry to everyone I've heard.

03:36:41.580 thank you

03:36:44.420 what do we make of that

03:36:49.280 well

03:36:51.760 a little bit of backstory from those victim impact statements is not once

03:36:57.420 did he look at his victims as they were talking to him and some of them

03:37:01.340 called him out saying you're such a coward now we talked earlier 0.95

03:37:05.440 about DiAngelo and how vindictive he is 0.98

03:37:09.440 and he all along during the course that you know all his court appearance he's been playing this

03:37:16.940 frail old man and we know he's not so here he is being called a coward and so he took that moment

03:37:24.320 he easily could have just leaned forward from his wheelchair and talked in the microphone and said

03:37:30.420 sorry in a wimpy little voice but he chose to stand up turn and face the part of the audience

03:37:38.800 where those victims were sitting. This is him basically saying, I'm not a coward.

03:37:47.720 And I think his apologies are hollow. He took that moment to psychologically instill fear into

03:37:59.000 these victims once again, because I will tell you, when he stood up, even though he's lost a lot of

03:38:03.300 wait. His physical presence resonated throughout that space, that conference room we were in.

03:38:11.160 I'm sure. So this was him basically, I won't say it on your show, but sort of an F you to the

03:38:21.240 victims. Yeah. And someone like that, I do believe in one's aura, whatever it is, energy, spiritual,

03:38:29.720 who knows but they have an evil aura when you're in the presence of evil oftentimes you actually

03:38:35.680 do know you can feel it and looking at him and knowing what he had done i'm sure they felt it

03:38:40.540 that day so it is scary i mean it's it is i felt it hellacious yeah it's like the devil incarnate

03:38:46.960 right there um nope so he's in prison for the rest of his life that's that's that he hasn't

03:38:53.960 written a book. He hasn't done a big interview. Do you think we'll ever know more?

03:39:03.900 He has been contacted, of course, by numerous individuals, outlets to come in and talk to him,

03:39:13.140 and he's refused every single request. There is hope that maybe he will talk to select

03:39:23.600 individuals from the investigation under certain circumstances. And that's something that we're

03:39:31.020 talking about, Anne-Marie Schubert, myself, as time goes on. And I hope we get that opportunity

03:39:39.860 because, you know, there is knowledge to be gained by law enforcement and by the community

03:39:48.300 with what he knows about the reasons for his attack and how he committed these attacks.

03:39:55.000 But I don't know when that's going to occur, if it's going to occur. And he's not getting any

03:40:01.480 younger. And quite frankly, he's probably the number one target in the nation in the prison

03:40:06.860 system for other inmates. So I just hope the prison system does keep him safe, even though

03:40:13.180 that seems contradictory, you know, from considering the horror of the crimes that he committed.

03:40:20.780 But I really do want to have a chance to talk to him, or I hope somebody gets a chance to talk to him eventually.

03:40:28.700 Is he in solitary?

03:40:31.240 He's down in ADSEG, administrative segregation down in Coquran.

03:40:37.220 And they have what I've been told by a CDC authority is that that's the best location for him.

03:40:45.180 They have the most robust ad seg component of any of the prisons in California.

03:40:54.600 I mean, based on the history you just told me, I feel like the best way to get him to sit might be to say he's not man enough to do it.

03:41:00.700 well that's you know what we've talked a variety of strategies on what would make him

03:41:08.860 most willing to talk and right that that conversation is ongoing what about you now

03:41:17.380 you got your man you got your house in colorado you got your retirement your pension now what

03:41:24.580 well my retirement hasn't gone the way i thought it was going to go

03:41:30.360 Um, so, you know, I obviously have gotten very involved on the media side of things, uh, both TV as well as podcasting, um, and I'm pursuing those opportunities.

03:41:45.220 And, and I really, in many ways, they keep me involved because I focus in on projects where I can help out on the case.

03:41:54.560 I can help law enforcement, you know, consult and not just tell a story.

03:41:59.160 You know, that's I that's going to be my goal moving forward is to continue to take on projects where, you know, let's see if we can get other family members answers as to what happened.

03:42:10.140 I don't see you just doing golf and fishing and skiing, but it would be nice, given the way you've lived, if you could get a bit more of that into your day.

03:42:21.080 out here in Colorado

03:42:24.240 I've taken up mountain biking

03:42:26.300 I've got a jeep where I can go out into the back

03:42:28.540 country and what I call my

03:42:30.540 dandelion brakes where I just kind of get away

03:42:32.760 but I've been

03:42:34.860 so pulled in so many

03:42:36.560 directions that those instances

03:42:38.700 of that type of activity

03:42:40.640 are few and far between

03:42:42.000 Paul, what a pleasure

03:42:44.240 thank you so much for being here and for

03:42:46.560 telling us the story

03:42:47.300 thank you very much for having me

03:42:50.640 And don't forget, I want our audience to go buy your book, support you in your retirement.

03:42:55.180 You've earned it.

03:42:56.360 The book is called Unmasked, and it is absolutely riveting.

03:43:00.820 My team read it, and I'm in the process of reading it, and you will not be sorry that you picked this one up.

03:43:05.340 Thanks again.

03:43:06.340 What an incredible journey and a testament to Paul and all the others who worked so tirelessly on this case.

03:43:15.360 All right, full-time thoughts.

03:43:16.880 Craig, who stood out?

03:43:17.860 Brazil's lime cheesecake started bright, didn't let up.

03:43:20.300 Nah, for me, Italian cappuccino was the standout in the box.

03:43:23.480 But if we're talking decadent performance, that's all France.

03:43:26.300 Chocolate creme brulee had the richest finishes.

03:43:28.700 Canadian fireworks really showed up big, too.

03:43:30.680 And Mexico's caramel churro ice cap.

03:43:33.060 Gave me chills.

03:43:34.200 We are, of course, talking about Tim's taste of the globe lineup.

03:43:37.080 New globally-inspired Timbits and ice cap flavors available at Tim Hortons for a limited time.

03:43:41.440 Pick some up today, and while you're at it, check out Footy Prime Daily.

03:43:44.900 It's here.

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03:44:13.400 Ray Trapani was always fascinated with money.

03:44:20.540 Those who knew him as a child knew that he would someday become a millionaire,

03:44:23.680 but they couldn't imagine how.

03:44:25.700 In the mid-2010s, he was broke and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt.

03:44:30.200 But then he and a business partner set out on a mission to create a Bitcoin debit card.

03:44:37.600 The company they created and the technology they promoted, however, was all a lie.

03:44:44.200 And it did not take long for everything to come crashing down.

03:44:47.800 Today, we bring you the story that was the focus of the Netflix documentary,

03:44:51.520 BitCond, with the man at the center of it all.

03:44:54.920 Ray Trapani is the founder and former COO of Bitcoin company Centratech.

03:44:59.820 He's joined today by his high school best friend and co-host of his new podcast,

03:45:03.540 creating a con the story of bit conned johnny b good that's his friend

03:45:09.780 guys welcome to the show thanks for having us nice to see you okay i so i watched the

03:45:19.100 netflix documentary and ray i gotta tell you the truth you found you completely charming in so many

03:45:24.840 ways and i ended the series thinking he's definitely still a criminal am i wrong yeah

03:45:31.340 Hey, you're definitely wrong in that regard.

03:45:34.240 I've changed a lot.

03:45:36.680 You have.

03:45:37.180 Okay.

03:45:37.680 Well, like, what did it?

03:45:38.760 Getting convicted?

03:45:39.960 Because you didn't have to serve jails.

03:45:41.460 I can see how actual prison time would reform a guy.

03:45:44.860 But what did it?

03:45:47.140 So I was addicted to drugs since I was 12.

03:45:50.920 So then basically, once I got arrested this time, it was the first time being sober since for, you know, 15 years of drug use.

03:45:57.780 So that really is what changed me.

03:46:00.260 You know, all these crimes I did, I always did them under the influence.

03:46:05.500 I really feel like, not for nothing, but we've interviewed many felons on this show,

03:46:10.660 and some guys did a lot of frauds over the course of their lives in their 20s and their 30s,

03:46:16.040 and then wound up using their talents for good, like helped the state.

03:46:20.460 And I know you did work with the government ultimately, but like, just FYI,

03:46:23.980 this could potentially be a lane for you because you're a talented guy in many ways,

03:46:29.480 and you actually successfully pulled off a lot of these capers.

03:46:33.380 But I just want to say that for the record before we get going,

03:46:35.860 because I think you could have a great life in front of you,

03:46:38.360 and I hope it's all used for good.

03:46:40.700 Now, Johnny, you were in the documentary a bit,

03:46:43.460 but not as much as Ray, who's the star, because it's his story.

03:46:46.060 But you guys, what, you've been best friends since you were kids?

03:46:49.560 Yeah, we've been best friends since third grade or fourth grade.

03:46:54.420 And we grew up together in the same town.

03:46:57.880 i always considered him like a brother to me and we just took very different paths in life but we

03:47:03.500 always remained best friends um despite if you wrote did you always did you know like okay you

03:47:10.120 know ray yeah you know is he one of those guys like he cheated on the test you know was there

03:47:14.940 was there like a strain of dishonesty or potential future fraud or he didn't go up for the color

03:47:20.700 within the lines what's that no this was this was like a lot of people ask me did you like

03:47:26.460 were you shocked? It was very natural progression throughout Ray's whole life. It was like a

03:47:30.760 progression of criminality. Um, Ray has been involved in criminal activity since he's 12

03:47:37.100 years old. So this was not really a shock to me. It's interesting because it sounds like Ray,

03:47:44.460 like we meet your mom and she seems totally lovely, but around you growing up, you, you

03:47:51.380 know, one important thing, which is your dad split. So you didn't really have a father growing

03:47:56.200 up. And then now you've since come out and said you actually suffered abuse too, sexual abuse as

03:48:02.240 a young man. So explain how you think you got to the point where crossing the legal lines just kind

03:48:09.880 of wasn't a thing for you. Yeah. So basically as a kid from eight to 12, I was being molested

03:48:16.340 pretty much regularly. And my mom, my dad had left and my mom was working 12 hours a day in the ICU

03:48:22.480 as a nurse so from that and then i also oh it was i felt like it was happening and it was so obvious

03:48:28.440 to everybody in my family that everybody always knew so pretty much i at a very young age i was

03:48:33.080 like it's me against the world and because of that i also like viewed my grandfather as like a

03:48:38.900 he was a he started a union in new york city so pretty much anybody that's connected with the

03:48:45.180 unions has some sort of connection so he presented as like a mobster figure and he was also like the

03:48:49.960 one that always had cash would help my mom get the house or get me my first car. So I was just like,

03:48:55.820 that's who my idol is. And I viewed it as like it was criminal activity based. Right. So I was like,

03:49:01.120 that's what the route I'm going to take. In the documentary, I talked about trauma for about two

03:49:06.900 hours before I said I always want to be a criminal, but they just took the last line and made it seem

03:49:11.480 like that was just like my opening thing to say. Right. That did come out of nowhere. So that makes

03:49:17.380 more sense. So you, it was the first like actual step toward criminality, the use of drugs or just

03:49:25.900 walk us through like that first line cross as you remember it. Yeah. The same person that was abusing

03:49:31.720 me, uh, like had me smoking weed at 12. And then from there I, I, I became friends with one of like

03:49:38.720 the biggest drug dealers in was little brother, but the biggest drug dealers in Long Island for

03:49:43.880 weed and I just started selling weed that was like my first step into crime and have you you've

03:49:50.760 never said who this person was who hurt you uh no it's my stepbrother how did it finally stop

03:49:57.300 I I got bit I grew up you know I started like dating I what happened was like I was always

03:50:03.060 questioning my sexuality up until 12 and then I got a girlfriend and I pretty much um had my first

03:50:09.700 interaction with the girl sexually and and i was like oh well i'm definitely not i'm definitely not

03:50:14.680 gay um so then that's kind of what just like i pretty much at like 13 14 i just was always with

03:50:22.280 that girl she she had a troubled uh childhood also and my mom we had like a crazy household 0.54

03:50:28.140 but she basically moved into my house like at like 14 15 um like kind of uh getting away from 0.73

03:50:34.140 her family as well so that's kind of what just guided me away then they got a divorce pretty

03:50:39.600 much like right around that same time so he was just out of the picture completely i also have

03:50:44.800 two boys by the way so i i uh okay i have two little boys now you you know yes i'm sure you're

03:50:51.260 very protective of them has he contacted you to say what are you doing or i'm sorry or threatened

03:50:57.180 you like how has he reacted to you going public with that i have no idea i mean i haven't heard

03:51:02.260 from him since i was 17 so i mean he he was always like he was very different than me and my brothers

03:51:08.780 were like beach bums my brothers are big surfers and then they were like kind of uh dirty fingernails

03:51:14.960 rock band type of guys so i honestly they probably live in like the boondocks and i i really have no

03:51:21.200 idea what's going on with them okay so you you you know wind up getting a little older and then we

03:51:29.120 were talking about you sort of your first foray into crossing legal lines and you had the family

03:51:33.580 the influence. You kind of thought this was what people did. So what was it? Was it drugs?

03:51:39.780 At first, yeah. I mean, I was doing drugs and I started selling drugs. And then pretty much

03:51:44.320 quickly that evolved into fraud because it was like drug-based fraud. So I had someone,

03:51:52.120 someone stole a pad because I was doing OxyContin and then someone stole a prescription pad and just

03:51:56.800 gave it to me. And I just had this kid write out the prescriptions. And I basically had like,

03:52:01.360 At first, like, me and my girlfriend went in, and the scripts worked.

03:52:05.080 They filled.

03:52:05.860 And at the time, OxyContin, like, I was, you know, like,

03:52:11.600 the opiate epidemic really hit my generation hard.

03:52:14.360 So everybody was doing OxyContin.

03:52:16.340 It was like no one was talking about the negative effects of it.

03:52:19.580 And everybody was just trying it.

03:52:21.720 So the pills sold very fast, and I was fully addicted by 15, 16.

03:52:27.040 And then this happened about 17 years old.

03:52:29.060 That was, like, my first fraud.

03:52:30.240 and I got arrested for that case as well.

03:52:32.880 What year was that?

03:52:35.460 So if I was 17, I was born in 91.

03:52:39.620 That was 2008.

03:52:41.880 Okay.

03:52:42.440 And Johnny, were you there for this?

03:52:44.340 Do you remember Ray getting involved with drugs

03:52:47.400 and sort of going down this lane?

03:52:49.220 Well, I mean, like he said,

03:52:51.780 the opiate epidemic hit our generation pretty hard.

03:52:54.840 So this was like everyone was taking these pills.

03:52:57.540 in the high school we went to, we didn't even know it was synthetic heroin at the time,

03:53:02.480 but people used to be selling blues or oxys for two, three dollars a pop. And then all of a sudden

03:53:07.680 they went to forty five dollars when everything started cracking down, which then everyone turned

03:53:12.060 to heroin experts because they were addicted. All of these things were super common growing up. So,

03:53:17.060 you know, we we were talking the other day about if you go through our yearbook,

03:53:20.820 this we probably know more people that died from addiction than anything else.

03:53:24.380 um so yeah it was kind of par for the course i know you grew up in long island right but

03:53:30.360 what like what kind of an area was it long island's got all sorts of different neighborhoods

03:53:33.780 oh a beautiful picturesque place called atlantic beach love it um it really is

03:53:40.280 sorry go ahead uh so it really is like on the on the surface it's you know everything's

03:53:48.880 beautiful and perfect but there's like a darkness that kind of you know lies underneath um and not

03:53:56.460 just the drugs in a lame beach i think like the the culture in general so and i think that's kind

03:54:01.780 of the same with a lot of these small towns ray i can't believe you got away with taking

03:54:06.540 somebody swiped a doctor's prescription uh pad as you point out out of a doctor's office and then

03:54:11.200 you started writing prescriptions up like 2008 was not you know 1998 when we really had no clue

03:54:18.860 and the opioid crisis was first start.

03:54:20.740 You know, like, it's amazing to me

03:54:22.440 that they wouldn't double check the doctor's signature.

03:54:25.420 Like, how did you not get caught right away on that one?

03:54:29.740 So there was a method.

03:54:31.200 So basically the doctor's offices close

03:54:33.460 at around six, seven o'clock.

03:54:35.320 So you make sure you go to the pharmacy

03:54:36.520 after the doctor's offices close

03:54:38.000 because they always call to verify,

03:54:39.620 but they'll fill the prescription

03:54:40.580 without the doctor verifying

03:54:41.860 if the doctor's offices close.

03:54:43.560 So we would just do that.

03:54:44.420 But the pharmacies were all in on the opiate epidemic.

03:54:47.100 Walgreens got sued, I believe.

03:54:48.480 that's where we always went. And, you know, if you see a bunch of skinny, crackhead looking kids 0.89

03:54:53.980 coming into your pharmacy one after the other filling prescriptions for Oxycontin, you would

03:54:58.100 assume something's wrong. We didn't get caught until we went to like a mom and pop pharmacy.

03:55:03.840 And that was when they were like, oh, this is definitely something wrong here. And they called

03:55:07.540 the cops. So everybody was in on that, that whole opiate epidemic. That's fascinating and frankly,

03:55:14.900 believable. Um, so, okay, you get caught, you don't wind up serving jail time. You get kind

03:55:19.860 of a slap on the wrist, right? Uh, yeah, for that, I did drug court for pretty much like, uh,

03:55:25.260 every single time I would get arrested, I would always go to rehab and then go like do some sort

03:55:29.580 of drug, um, outpatient type of thing always, but I always had very good lawyers, obviously.

03:55:37.040 Mm-hmm. And you're, you know, you're a good looking guy. Do you feel like you were able

03:55:40.960 to charm these judges you're like i'm just wondering how that played because you know 0.56

03:55:45.180 you're gonna have a lot of people out there being like if he was a black kid from chicago he would

03:55:48.860 have been put behind bars yeah i hear that regularly and um i i don't know the correct

03:55:55.240 answer i'm i'm a handsome white guy so i mean i don't really have the the answer for what would

03:56:00.880 happen if i was a black guy really i i don't know right right but i'm sure i'm sure like it somewhat

03:56:07.160 what has to play into, you know, like I, I don't know, you know, I can't really give you an answer

03:56:11.880 for that one. Well, we'll let the audience take a look at the YouTube and make up their own minds

03:56:16.500 on it. All right. So then you wind up graduating to a car, like getting a lovely, like car rental

03:56:26.520 service going, exotic, Miami exotic, right? That's what it was called. And this was, but it was not

03:56:31.700 in Miami or was it actually in Miami? Yeah. So I, I basically like during that time of drug court,

03:56:37.360 I started working in construction. My grandfather got me a union card. I started working. I was

03:56:42.100 like, I hate this. This is terrible. I don't know how anybody could work a job like this.

03:56:46.460 This honest job is not for me. Yeah. I was breaking my back doing scaffolding at the

03:56:51.620 New World Trade Center for like a couple of years there. And then I basically was,

03:56:54.820 I went and visited my friend down in Miami. And, uh, that's when I, at first I found this

03:57:01.120 loophole in Venmo when I first moved down there. And I was able to just send money without having

03:57:06.380 money in the bank account to back it. And I just like kind of exploited that loophole to the

03:57:12.020 maximum extent. And, you know, we made like a good amount of money on it. I don't know the exact

03:57:17.120 figure. But from there, I was like, I came back to New York. I told my girlfriend, I was like,

03:57:22.060 I'm moving out to Miami. She didn't even believe me. And then I was like, you're the come with me.

03:57:25.960 or you're staying here. And I just, uh, the next day put my TV and everything in my car and drove

03:57:31.800 down there and, uh, kind of continued with the Venmo thing for a little bit there, built up a

03:57:37.420 few hundred thousand. And from there we parlayed that into opening a exotic car rental business.

03:57:42.600 Yeah. The Venmo scheme is actually very interesting to me too, because I read you,

03:57:48.060 we're talking about how if the way it works is like, let's say you wanted to Venmo three grand

03:57:54.180 Johnny, but you had, you know, $2 in your account on Venmo, there was this period where Venmo would

03:58:01.440 send it, even though you didn't have the funds and they might shut down that account of yours,

03:58:08.360 but they didn't come after you for it. Yeah. Venmo, PayPal, they all had the same issue.

03:58:15.180 I don't know how they allowed this, but basically they would front the money.

03:58:19.480 As long as you had one transaction done through your account, they would just front the money

03:58:23.760 as soon as you sent it and the other person would get it and be able to cash it out and your account

03:58:28.620 would just go negative three like basically bounce against the bank account and uh you'd get a 35

03:58:33.620 like i don't know whatever the fee would be and then uh your vemo would just get banned and back

03:58:40.440 then like they didn't even bill you for it was just like your vemo was banned so it was like all right

03:58:44.340 we're gonna find like 100 people to do the exact same thing and i just like created like fake

03:58:49.140 instagram accounts like to find like college kids that were broke that needed money quick and uh

03:58:54.860 give them a thousand dollars out of the transaction take the other couple thousand and um we just did

03:59:00.400 that for a little bit there i mean i have to give you points for ingenuity like who would have even

03:59:05.580 thought about this like how did you discover that this could even happen um i was just sitting on

03:59:12.540 the balcony this is something johnny speaks to a lot as far as like how i view systems um i mean

03:59:18.920 maybe johnny can expand yeah i mean even going back to when we were talking about like the

03:59:23.600 pharmacy thing and and the venmo thing ray just has a very unique way of looking at systems and

03:59:30.960 then like figuring out a way to exploit them you mentioned earlier how like um you know he's very

03:59:36.340 intelligent in a lot of ways and if he would have applied that somewhere else like he could have

03:59:40.620 done it i mean you did do some amazing things but you could have done some kind of really world

03:59:45.640 changing things. It's always fascinated me and it's like it taught me a new way to look at

03:59:50.520 things in general. Ray can look at a system and like immediately figure it out and figure out

03:59:55.200 where the flaws lie. It is kind of a gift and it could be used for good if you put on the white

04:00:02.300 hat. You know, you spent a lot of time wearing the dark hat, but now I think you're kind of in

04:00:07.400 transition period where you're, you know, you're totally owning up to what life was like before

04:00:12.720 and it's a new star.

04:00:14.440 Okay, so let's get to,

04:00:15.940 you're running the exotic car company.

04:00:17.940 You've got this money that you kind of stole.

04:00:19.940 Well, not kind of, you did steal via Venmo.

04:00:22.460 And that was your seed money

04:00:24.760 for getting all these Lamborghinis and Ferraris

04:00:27.040 and renting them out to people

04:00:28.640 who wanted a beautiful rental car.

04:00:30.400 And among those who came in were some celebrities.

04:00:34.040 And this would later prove very important,

04:00:36.260 these connections that you were forming while doing this.

04:00:38.960 Who were they?

04:00:39.500 um we had pretty much every celebrity you can ever think of as but they're mostly like rappers

04:00:45.220 um that's like everybody comes to miami and just rents cars and spends all their money like as far

04:00:52.860 as that business down in miami it's one of the best businesses i wish i would have stayed in

04:00:56.140 in that business but you know everybody from rick ross little wayne young young ma like all these

04:01:01.420 names but floyd mayweather dj cald those other guys are every time they're down in miami unless

04:01:06.640 they live there now. A lot of them live there now, but it's just pretty much what everybody

04:01:11.560 does. Everybody wants a nice car. Even when I go down to Miami, I always would want to get a nice

04:01:16.080 car. So you're making good money, but you're spending a ton, and this would ultimately be

04:01:21.020 a problem. What were you spending all the money on? So that's one thing I always talk about now.

04:01:28.800 At that point, I was trying to go legit with that business. And of course, I had bad spending

04:01:33.680 habits. I was a degenerate gambler, drugs, going out to the club. But also my partners

04:01:41.580 were not the best partners. And they were also like stealing money from me and kind of just

04:01:47.460 embezzling money from the company. So that became a big issue as well. But we were also just going

04:01:54.960 out to the club every day. In Miami, you go out to the club, it's $10,000. It's not a cheap night

04:01:59.740 ever. But anything you can imagine, we also had like a beautiful penthouse apartment in Boca

04:02:05.460 that we all lived in. And, you know, our offices are just pretty much anything you can imagine as

04:02:13.000 far as like Miami scene for young kids is what we were spending our money on.

04:02:18.140 So you're earning big, but you're spending big. And it turns out there was an embezzlement problem

04:02:22.460 on top of all of it, which isn't a great recipe for keeping the business afloat. All right. So

04:02:28.060 then how does this parlay into the subject of, you know, the Netflix documentary, your podcast,

04:02:33.980 tons of articles, you know, this story just blew up once you guys got caught for what you did with

04:02:39.520 Centra, S-C-E-N-T-R-A. Take us from Miami Exotic, the car rental thing, to the birth of this crypto

04:02:49.160 company. Yeah. So basically there was a point there where I go, like the business is about

04:02:55.500 400 000 in debt and i uh i go to vegas and i basically said i brought my last hundred thousand

04:03:03.160 to vegas and i just was like i played in the world series of poker this is my genius attempt to try

04:03:08.320 to make the 400 000 back played in the world series of poker and then i basically played

04:03:12.540 baccarat with the last of it in hopes to try to make it all back or i was gonna kill myself so i

04:03:18.660 and then i lost it all and then i just took about 100 zanac or like 50 60 zanacs and uh i basically

04:03:25.420 just fell asleep for 24 hours and woke up and then from there i fly back and uh my two business

04:03:32.460 partners are arguing with each other about where this money went they were basically blaming each

04:03:36.840 other because one one of them the check was cash in one of their names for like over a hundred

04:03:41.540 thousand and they were just saying this guy wrote it out and he cashed it and i didn't know what was

04:03:46.880 the truth and ended up deciding to get rid of one of my partners and go with the other one who ended

04:03:52.520 up being my partner in centratech um so after we had gotten rid of the first guy this other guy

04:03:59.700 was just like one day i just saw him like trading i thought it was stocks and he was like oh this is

04:04:04.140 like the new thing cryptocurrency and um i was like ah whatever that means you know what i mean

04:04:09.180 i had no clue but then he kind of broke it down for me and from there he ended up losing a bunch

04:04:15.540 in while he was trading and from there he was trying to like sue coinbase for what they call

04:04:21.180 it flash crash um i don't know if anybody really know what that means but basically the price just

04:04:26.140 went down from a couple hundred dollars down to zero and then right back up so anybody that has a

04:04:31.900 trade position gets liquidated right away and um so he was trying to sue and through trying to sue

04:04:37.560 he went on reddit and found out about these companies that are creating icos which is

04:04:42.200 basically a cryptocurrency version of an ipo and um they're like just young kids raising hundreds

04:04:48.640 of millions of dollars. So, Johnny, this is one of the things that they talk about. And I know

04:04:54.820 you guys address is like the industry is totally unregulated. I mean, it remains completely

04:04:59.260 unregulated for the most part. But this if you were looking to start a fraud, this would be a

04:05:04.120 great lane to do it in. Yeah. And Ray Ray kind of taught me that people like Ray and Sorby when

04:05:11.900 they're thinking that was his partner at the time when they're thinking of like what to do, they

04:05:16.680 they look for unregulated markets that's like you know it's like chumming the water for sharks

04:05:21.620 pretty much um and to raise point since he's been caught things have not gotten better they've

04:05:30.060 gotten it seems like worse in the crypto space um right where you know we were joking before like

04:05:35.500 at least centra tried to hide hide it behind some legitimacy but a lot of the coins that are coming

04:05:42.360 out today are just, they're like open scams with no concept other than get rich quick.

04:05:49.600 What's amazing to me in watching the story is the fraud was so bold. The claims you were making

04:05:58.340 were so bold, false, but bold. And it took a while for anyone to figure it out. You made

04:06:05.020 tens of millions of dollars before anybody was like, what the hell's happening here? Before you

04:06:10.780 got an SEC letter. It's crazy how long it went on and how much money you made, despite what seems

04:06:18.560 to be an easily pierced veil of legitimacy. So can you just give us a couple of things that you

04:06:25.340 guys did to make this company? Well, before we get to that, explain what the theory was that

04:06:29.800 you were selling, because I still don't totally understand. It's like a credit card for crypto.

04:06:34.620 But one of my big questions was, how on earth could you ever fool anybody into thinking such

04:06:38.940 a thing as legitimate because they'd be looking for their crypto credit card to arrive in the

04:06:42.780 mail and they'd be looking to use it and they'd find out really fast, this doesn't work. No one

04:06:48.560 accepts this. This actually isn't worth anything. Yeah, so there's a lot of things to break down

04:06:53.720 there. So basically, when you create one of these companies, you create it based on a concept.

04:06:59.820 And originally, when we were raising the money, we had said that we were in beta testing, right?

04:07:05.900 So we gave them a – this is a timeline of when the cards would be ready for mass adoption, basically.

04:07:12.880 So the whole time we were raising the money, people weren't expecting cards.

04:07:16.700 They were just basically looking at us make videos using like what was beta tested.

04:07:22.740 And from there, they were investing on the concept, not as much as like, oh, I pay now, I get a card.

04:07:29.700 And basically the concept was how it really works and how it works today.

04:07:34.000 what people don't realize is that we ended up actually developing it by the time we got arrested

04:07:38.340 and we had the cards working with the wallet but so how it works is essentially you have

04:07:42.920 cryptocurrency in a crypto wallet and then when you you have a debit card or a prepaid card and

04:07:49.760 the prepaid card is backed by a pool of fiat currency so then as soon as the person swipes

04:07:55.740 it pays in fiat currency but on our side on the back end we we take out the cryptocurrency value

04:08:01.400 of how much they spent in fiat.

04:08:03.280 And so we just have a fiat pool that blocks it,

04:08:05.620 like cash, US dollar, whatever country,

04:08:09.120 you know, euros, US dollar,

04:08:12.340 you know, whatever country the card's being used in.

04:08:14.400 So just explain, so the way it would work,

04:08:16.240 the way you'd sell it is, okay, Megyn Kelly,

04:08:18.500 here's a card, you buy it, and then what?

04:08:20.620 How would you tell me this is all going to go down?

04:08:23.160 So you're going to be able to swipe your card

04:08:25.100 and then it's going to subtract that amount

04:08:26.900 in cryptocurrency, Bitcoin,

04:08:28.300 whatever crypto you're using out of your crypto wallet.

04:08:31.400 and where would you say i could use this card anywhere like at the walgreens it's a visa card

04:08:39.280 it's a visa card yeah you can just go to the store and use it like it's they have them now

04:08:44.260 there's other companies that were our competitors that made the same lies that now own staples

04:08:48.720 center they made the exact same lies as us they said they had visa mastercard they own

04:08:53.040 stable center in a stable center they just settled um so it works the concept works

04:08:59.000 that's unbelievable okay so we've gotten there the vision actually was realized but

04:09:05.060 it wasn't totally real while you were doing it and pushing it yeah yeah absolutely the um

04:09:11.420 yeah go ahead no we completely lied in the very beginning that's 100 true and that's what we were

04:09:17.220 arrested for people don't people like uh netflix like uh sensationalized the part about just like

04:09:23.860 the the crime part right we completely lied we made up a fake ceo we um you know didn't have

04:09:30.720 visa mastercard in the beginning we were but once we raised a few million dollars we actually worked

04:09:35.440 we hired 40 plus developers in-house to develop this product and we built towards what we were

04:09:40.200 trying to develop and we got there by the time we got arrested but that's just not talked about ever

04:09:45.700 That's the bitter irony of the whole thing.

04:09:52.260 All right, so you're committing this fraud.

04:09:57.960 You're getting people to donate based on the beta testing.

04:10:01.260 Like it's going to be the next big thing.

04:10:02.900 You should get in now while the getting's good.

04:10:04.700 And then at some point early on, I guess,

04:10:07.980 there was like a crypto guru who wrote a favorable article about Centra Tech. And my impression from

04:10:18.780 the podcast, guys, is that you were like, hell yeah, great. You weren't expecting this.

04:10:26.380 And it turns out this guy didn't even mean to be writing it about your company. Hold on. There's a

04:10:33.240 little clip i think from the netflix special about this guy let's play it and then you guys can

04:10:38.380 explain it in stop one clearly there's a reason why all this big money was coming in

04:10:42.660 people in our chat room started saying cliff high wrote this article you guys see that and

04:10:50.500 and me and sorby like jumped in they were like of course we know cliff high like we love cliff

04:10:54.980 high like yeah he's the man we had no fucking idea who he was the whole uh banking system is failing

04:11:00.780 But in the meantime, we're all going to be dealing with real money in the form of gold, silver, and cryptos. 0.76

04:11:07.240 And the cryptos are going to be the fluid part of it.

04:11:10.840 And he was like a crypto guru type of guy.

04:11:13.540 He's just some like old nerd.

04:11:17.080 He was saying this is going to be a big thing.

04:11:19.740 He put out this press release telling all his big investors to put out their money for Centrum.

04:11:24.600 we went from having like 200 people in our slack channel to having like 2 000 people

04:11:32.840 within like you know a couple hours time to go to the stratosphere this company's taken off

04:11:37.720 unbelievable so it's a great it's just dumb luck so the so we had raised a few hundred thousand

04:11:47.300 completely like just grinding it out going in different chat rooms pitching our idea

04:11:51.500 then that article came out and within a couple hours a few million came in

04:11:56.360 oh my god i kind of feel bad for cliff high do you feel bad i do too he's a super nice guy and

04:12:02.880 he's actually very intelligent what he does is he uses like almost like an ai type of system

04:12:07.520 that searches the internet for things and he didn't do his due diligence before he put out

04:12:12.620 his press release that had us in there it basically combined the name censure with a bank

04:12:16.960 and that was why that confusion happened oh my lord this is you can't make this stuff up right

04:12:26.100 it's like this poor guy now since he's come out he's like very sorry that he did all this and all

04:12:30.380 that but the damage is done um all right so how long were things rolling around rolling along

04:12:36.600 post the cliff high mistaken article with all the money pouring in

04:12:41.080 so so how long was things going on like until the new york times reporter came sniffing around like

04:12:48.960 what how long were the glory days before somebody was really kicking the tires it was really like

04:12:54.180 a year period where everything was going good my timelines are terrible though from my substance

04:12:59.940 abuse i really like i'm not gonna hold you to it i'm just looking for a general feel all right

04:13:04.280 so we're like around about a year period and what yeah what kind of dough are you bringing in

04:13:08.480 um at the height like what happened was crazy too is that everything we had raised they said

04:13:14.380 we raised 32 million but that was at the same time as we raised that money crypto went up like

04:13:20.340 10x so it became a few hundred million uh pretty quickly so we were making about two million a day

04:13:26.900 at some points and what people there's another part that people never really covered is uh i

04:13:32.500 figured out a way to basically control the price uh from like this decentralized exchange that

04:13:38.320 ended up getting shut down but uh there was like a way back then that you could essentially like

04:13:43.340 artificially control the price it's amazing like you you've got these genius powers that were used

04:13:50.700 for evil but it's wonderful to hear you talking about them and letting us all in on the secrets

04:13:55.740 in a way because it's like this thing is still big and it's still out there and there are tons

04:13:59.400 of people who are buying crypto as we speak i mean i guess we should ask that johnny do you

04:14:04.920 want to speak to this is like it's not is it all a fraud i mean i know some people say this about

04:14:09.620 bitcoin and ethereum like it's all fraudulent i think there's so many things uh people hate

04:14:16.080 nuance nowadays and like there's so many things that are some things yeah do you do your research

04:14:22.060 some of them are legitimate some of them are not legitimate and just because one of them is a scam

04:14:27.240 or i mean in crypto's case a few hundred of them are a scam doesn't mean they all are a scam you

04:14:33.960 No, I would just say stick to the basics.

04:14:37.080 And if there's a coin named after like an animal, probably don't buy that one.

04:14:43.620 So let me just ask you, Ray, were you shocked, shocked when Sam Bankman Freed got arrested and his company imploded?

04:14:52.760 No, not at all.

04:14:54.460 I wasn't I wasn't shocked.

04:14:56.340 I think in cryptocurrency, pretty much like 95 percent of it is fraud.

04:15:00.860 like if it's not considered fraud

04:15:03.920 it's insiders

04:15:04.900 the insiders are the ones always getting rich

04:15:07.740 and even like the controlling the price thing

04:15:10.140 now it's just done by AI bots

04:15:12.220 and they call them market makers

04:15:13.980 it's all the same thing

04:15:15.500 all these projects are making crazy money now

04:15:18.520 and their new loophole

04:15:20.300 is just don't offer any product

04:15:22.420 let's just tell everybody

04:15:24.360 they're going to get rich off a picture of a dog

04:15:26.620 wow

04:15:28.980 So do you own any crypto now, either one of you guys?

04:15:33.820 Yeah, a little bit.

04:15:34.980 Yeah, same.

04:15:35.880 Well, so why?

04:15:36.840 Why?

04:15:37.320 Why would you trust anybody who's in the market now?

04:15:40.520 So like the ability to, like Bitcoin and Ethereum, in my opinion, are great investments.

04:15:46.440 I mean, not financial advice or whatever they want you to say there.

04:15:49.340 But I think there's a great thing to be able to just send money to someone in China instantly without any bank involvement.

04:15:57.500 I think that's the real use case, in my opinion.

04:16:00.200 There's some smaller use cases, maybe if you want to put a cryptocurrency in a game and make it something like that.

04:16:06.980 There's a couple of fun use cases I guess people can make out that are, there's probably legitimate projects trying to do it.

04:16:13.340 But for the most part, you just want to be able to spend, I mean, send money anywhere.

04:16:18.180 Like, I can send money to Johnny without having to go on the bank, or I can send money to anybody without having to go on the bank.

04:16:23.880 hmm um okay so back to uh your company uh centratech this guy writes the article the

04:16:32.420 money's pouring in and when you say it was worth more like between two and three hundred million

04:16:36.440 that you're not suggesting you had that money in the bank right what are you suggesting about how

04:16:41.400 do you put get that number on the company so the the market cap of the company was 600 million

04:16:47.600 uh the cent like we created 100 million centra tokens that was worth six dollars of the coin and

04:16:53.100 we had sold those and we kept 32 million so this um that's alone about 150 million of

04:16:59.860 company-owned century tokens but then we also raised 200,000 ethereum which were at a time

04:17:06.880 over a thousand dollars so that's another 200 million so at one point our company is has 350

04:17:12.040 million if we wanted to liquidate it we can we were liquidating a lot to be able to pay our

04:17:16.960 employees and uh you know do whatever we wanted to do so realistically we had liquid like it's

04:17:23.820 tough because like you would say that's not liquid maybe because it's in cryptocurrency but we could

04:17:28.200 have sold any amount of it at any time and made it liquid instantly all right so things are rolling

04:17:35.000 and you're living the high life enjoying the money and the armani suits and all of the accoutrements

04:17:42.320 the fancy watch, the Rolex, and so on. And then a writer from the New York Times

04:17:49.340 named Nathaniel Popper gives you guys a call. And he wants to figure out a couple of things

04:17:58.100 about the company, including why on your website, I guess you decided to go with just everyone went

04:18:06.140 to Harvard Business School. Every single person there went to Harvard. You didn't, but Johnny's

04:18:10.480 laughing why didn't you like mix it up a little you know like this guy went to wharton and this

04:18:14.840 guy went to like why did you it seemed effortless to just say everyone's harvard well the the funny

04:18:21.420 there's a funny story there actually because what happened was someone had said something about us

04:18:26.400 and we all um sorby was like everybody created linkedin and we all created those linkedins

04:18:33.460 separately in different houses and then we all put harvard and then right away when we noticed that

04:18:39.580 I changed mine to UCLA pretty, pretty quickly.

04:18:42.640 I don't know what Farkas did.

04:18:44.020 So that was just the original thing was the Harvard thing.

04:18:46.540 And it's pretty funny.

04:18:47.300 Like that was just all of our instantly like, oh, yeah, we all went to Harvard. 0.82

04:18:50.920 Can you explain Farkas?

04:18:52.340 Because we haven't talked about him.

04:18:53.260 We talked about Sorby, your buddy who you knew from earlier.

04:18:55.980 And who is this third guy?

04:18:57.520 Because he becomes important.

04:18:59.400 Yeah, I feel bad.

04:19:01.040 I always talk so bad about him.

04:19:02.380 He's a nice kid.

04:19:03.560 He's just he's Sorby's fiance's brother.

04:19:06.780 And he kind of got roped into this.

04:19:08.700 in my opinion he shouldn't have got any jail time

04:19:10.840 I even told the FBI that

04:19:12.540 and they basically just said

04:19:14.620 kind of something along the lines of

04:19:16.860 if someone's telling

04:19:18.940 you that you're doing your fraud you can't be like

04:19:20.680 I didn't know

04:19:21.900 but he really

04:19:24.940 didn't like even though he was

04:19:26.900 involved in the conversations I don't think

04:19:28.860 he comprehended what me and Sorby were talking

04:19:30.900 about

04:19:31.260 like he saw like oh we're trying to build a company

04:19:34.980 he's in the

04:19:36.880 documentary and i think it's fair to say can't stand you yeah yeah i think what they did also

04:19:43.680 on netflix is like they showed him a clip of me talking about him to like rile him up before he

04:19:48.240 talked because there was points there like um like other edits where i think he was talking

04:19:53.840 more highly of like i don't think he has any real issue with me his issue is that like i'm talking

04:19:58.580 bad about him and i'm not trying to talk bad about him i'm saying i don't think he was even

04:20:03.260 involved in like the actual crime of everything.

04:20:08.180 Who was the brains of the operation between you, Sorby, and Farkas?

04:20:12.640 Sorby was definitely the head honcho, for sure the main guy, and I was second in command.

04:20:19.080 He was the original idea guy, and I was just the guy that would manage the employees,

04:20:24.600 and then I found out some other loopholes throughout that time.

04:20:27.520 But yeah, and the funny thing is me and Sorby both went to the same high school.

04:20:31.360 Did you guys go to college at all?

04:20:34.240 I think Sorby went to St. John's for a year

04:20:36.780 and then he got kicked out.

04:20:39.780 So not Harvard.

04:20:42.640 Okay.

04:20:43.600 All right, so you set it up.

04:20:45.000 The website is, you know, kind of...

04:20:46.460 And as I understand it, Johnny,

04:20:47.920 they stole the website from another tech company.

04:20:52.180 Well, what do you mean?

04:20:53.680 They stole the website or the idea?

04:20:55.820 They just copied somebody else's website, right?

04:20:57.520 It wasn't like they didn't come up.

04:20:58.660 They kind of found a company

04:20:59.660 that looked like it was in business.

04:21:00.880 there's a lot of just copying and then changing things going around at Centra Tech from the idea

04:21:06.860 itself to the website to I don't know most facets of it it's amazing to me that you would again it's

04:21:14.140 a it's a bold move to just steal somebody else's as opposed to just come like that's another

04:21:19.080 indicator obvious of fraud and the perhaps most bold move of all Ray was to say that you had struck

04:21:25.660 a partnership with Visa and MasterCard in connection with your cards, which of course

04:21:31.860 would legitimize it in the eyes of a potential consumer. And this New York Times reporter,

04:21:36.440 Nathaniel Popper, found out that was not in any way true. Here's a bit more from

04:21:43.540 BitCond via Netflix of that, Sot2.

04:21:48.580 Ray, I've been coming across other questions that have come up around Centra.

04:21:54.540 The first thing is Visa has said nobody has applied to issue a central card.

04:22:01.840 I mean, I know details about that, you know, I mean, but I mean, I can't give you direct answers on that.

04:22:11.800 These guys say that they're issuing a card with Visa.

04:22:16.240 They have pictures up on their website that have cards that have the Visa logo on it.

04:22:20.700 One of the first things I did was call Visa.

04:22:23.540 They said, we have no idea who these guys are,

04:22:26.580 and there is no record of an application.

04:22:29.760 They're going to have to take that off of their website.

04:22:33.000 I can't, yeah.

04:22:36.380 Okay, I mean, Visa's just saying this company, Centra,

04:22:39.300 is not allowed to issue a card with Visa on it.

04:22:41.800 Until we do the mass orders, they're never going to speak on them.

04:22:45.340 Anytime somebody tells you, you know,

04:22:48.340 I don't really feel comfortable answering that question,

04:22:51.340 or these are questions that are very very very tough for me to answer to you you know i mean like

04:22:56.160 you know that there's something going on here oh god this was not a banner moment for you ray

04:23:04.160 were you you were definitely drugged up during these phone calls no oh i was at that point in

04:23:09.340 my life i was taking 20 xanax a day like 40 milligrams of xanax every single day the whole

04:23:14.240 time i was running centra um but then besides that i was so you didn't feel panic i mean on

04:23:18.960 the bright side, you probably didn't panic when you got that phone call. Yeah, I was probably

04:23:22.260 smiling on the phone. But yeah, I felt nothing. That was the thing. I really felt absolutely

04:23:27.760 nothing that entire time. I was empty in that way. But I mean, obviously, it's an edit to make

04:23:32.720 me sense. Like they literally just highlighted just my as much as possible. But I definitely

04:23:38.920 was high as a kite there. He talks about how as he's the New York Times reporters doing his

04:23:45.680 investigation. He's watching the Centratech website and it's removing the references to

04:23:51.520 Visa and MasterCard, taking down the LinkedIn's that say Harvard, like as he calls with, hey,

04:23:57.960 what about this? What about this? You guys are actively changing it, which is just the worst

04:24:01.620 possible thing you can do. Nothing says I'm committing a fraud like that. So like in a way,

04:24:08.460 you guys are very sophisticated and in a way you were very keystone. Am I wrong?

04:24:13.400 You're 100% right.

04:24:15.240 We were in over our heads as far as how big this thing got.

04:24:20.260 We had done fraud before, but it's easy when it's small-scale stuff.

04:24:24.180 But once you're in the public eye and a company gets to the point we did after we had those huge endorsements,

04:24:30.760 it got tough because there were just so many eyes on you.

04:24:34.520 So every little thing that you had that was not true would just get called out instantly.

04:24:39.220 So throughout the whole time, we were taking Visa down, putting it back on just to keep an investor.

04:24:45.460 That was the thing is that the investors were controlling our decisions on what to do on the website.

04:24:51.760 If a guy had invested a million dollars and then he was like, oh, where'd Visa MasterCard?

04:24:55.200 We just put it right back up.

04:24:57.480 We were just trying to keep whatever money we had.

04:25:00.960 So you mentioned the celebs.

04:25:02.700 this is where DJ Khaled and Floyd Mayweather from Exotic Cars or Miami Exotic come back into the

04:25:10.780 story. How did you use them to promote this fake company? Yeah, it's always pretty funny that people

04:25:18.620 follow any sort of rapper or boxer's financial advice, but that's the cryptocurrency world for

04:25:25.620 you. So yeah, we just basically reached out for an endorsement through their managers.

04:25:30.700 uh which the manager was like someone we had met in the club scene more so than even the car scene

04:25:35.960 um and pretty much you just pay them and you give them a script and they say whatever you want them

04:25:41.460 to say you know they'll promote pretty much anything especially floyd he's crazy like i've

04:25:46.360 seen him promoting lawn products bug sprays uh you just give him some money and he does it

04:25:51.820 oh god even now even post this i don't know he's a crazy guy i've just seen him promote some wild

04:25:58.600 stuff on there and uh i always just make jokes about like the amount of things that he's promoted

04:26:03.400 but i i think if like he's selling boxing gloves you should probably buy them but i wouldn't uh

04:26:07.960 take his financial advice but you know it wasn't of course johnny it wasn't just those two celebs

04:26:13.300 endorsing centratech we saw in the sam bankman freed scandal it was tom brady and giselle and

04:26:20.740 larry david like these celebrities if the price is right they sell out yeah and i and ray has

04:26:28.640 spoken on that before first of all like with the centratech thing that was kind of before the it

04:26:35.020 was cool to do that because right afterwards is when all the celebrities started kind of doing

04:26:39.360 that and a lot of them did get in trouble but the amount the the check that like a normal commercial

04:26:45.260 can offer you versus a crypto commercial is going to be like vastly different um and a lot of the

04:26:52.220 celebrities a lot of time i don't really think they fully understand what they're promoting um

04:26:57.520 they're just like sure like big check oh you guys are legitimate legitimate enough that you have

04:27:02.080 like commercial spots on these big channels okay i'll do it sure yeah that's that's all it is is

04:27:08.120 that we we just the value proposition was just so much better in crypto because we just had like we

04:27:13.220 knew that Floyd Mayweather, we gave him a million dollars, we were going to make five million the

04:27:17.780 next day. So we had the ability to do that. When you're a regular company that's promoting a

04:27:23.720 product, I don't think Floyd Mayweather is going to bring you in that much money. So they aren't

04:27:27.940 able to give him a million dollars. So that's why all these celebrities right away, of course,

04:27:31.900 they'll take these big checks. It's a it's, you know, to do a couple Instagram posts. It's the

04:27:36.260 easiest thing I've ever heard for a million dollars. What's crazy is like, OK, I don't know

04:27:41.000 about Floyd's situation, but you look at Tom Brady, he didn't need money. Giselle is even richer than

04:27:46.340 Tom Brady is. She was for a while, the highest paid supermodel in the world. Why would they take

04:27:51.280 the risk? This is one of my questions. Why would you take the risk with this cryptocurrency company

04:27:56.660 like they did with Sam Bankman-Fried? But you're just saying it's just the easiest money ever.

04:28:02.840 Besides it just being the easiest money ever, I think with the SBF one is a little bit more

04:28:08.360 detail because it the public perception was so high of of who he was and he was donating to

04:28:15.340 campaigns and to every both sides right and left and he just he no one thought it was going to fall

04:28:22.100 through i mean he there was just too much it seemed like it was too big to fail and i think

04:28:26.060 those big celebrities he probably offered them massive money like five million for just a one

04:28:31.880 commercial um you know that that probably took them like a few hours out of their lives or

04:28:36.640 maybe even more than that. I think the amount of money those guys probably got for those

04:28:41.620 commercials was crazy. I think they're actually, SBF is helping the government

04:28:45.340 as of like two days ago in regards to the celebrity endorsements.

04:28:50.820 We'll continue to follow that one. So Nathaniel Popper of the New York Times is legit and was

04:28:56.260 onto the scent, but there were other guys who write about crypto who also were questioning

04:29:03.380 whether you guys were legit. And never to be daunted by somebody sniffing around,

04:29:11.140 you guys wound up buying a lot of those guys off. Maybe I'm not cynical enough, but I'm amazed

04:29:19.840 that somebody who's saying, hey, crypto world, watch out for Centratech, they don't seem legit,

04:29:26.260 could for what, 20 grand, just completely flip and the next week be like, actually,

04:29:31.200 is wrong they look good is that what happened maybe 50 times like not even just like a couple

04:29:37.560 people every single one of the people that are promoting crypto they all are just doing it in

04:29:43.520 it for greed essentially um it was the easiest thing i've ever seen like there was one guy

04:29:48.460 that was hard the hardest one out of like 50 people that we just paid off either a few thousand

04:29:54.760 five thousand ten thousand whatever it took to get those taken down and he after about two weeks of

04:30:00.440 saying no and continuing to make videos, he's like, ah, you know,

04:30:05.100 my kid's a little sick, you know, you know, send me this.

04:30:08.540 And we sent it to him in the next day, you know, applauding us.

04:30:15.240 All right. Full-time force. Craig, who stood out?

04:30:17.720 Brazil's lime cheesecakes started bright. Didn't let up.

04:30:20.220 Nah, for me, Italian cappuccino was the standout in the box. 0.77

04:30:23.300 But if we're talking decadent performance, that's all France.

04:30:26.120 Chocolate creme brulee had the richest finishes.

04:30:28.520 Canadian fireworks really showed up big too.

04:30:30.440 And Mexico's Caramel Churro Ice Cap.

04:30:32.840 Gave me chills.

04:30:34.020 We are, of course, talking about Tim's Taste of the Globe lineup.

04:30:36.920 New globally inspired Timbits and Ice Cap flavors available at Tim Horton's for a limited time.

04:30:41.420 Pick some up today.

04:30:42.420 And while you're at it, check out Footy Prime Daily.

04:30:48.240 One of the frauds that I think came about from Nathaniel Popper's investigation was the matter of the CEO.

04:30:57.300 So do you want to take that one, Johnny, the name of the CEO and how these guys found the CEO?

04:31:06.500 Michael Edwards, who, if you looked at his photo, looks strikingly like Ray's grandfather

04:31:10.860 was the fake CEO, or you actually switched his photo out. So yeah, Michael Edwards was a fake

04:31:19.700 CEO. People were asking a lot of questions. Who are these guys? Who is this Ray Chirpani?

04:31:26.680 these three guys from Long Island, are they really experienced enough to run this crypto

04:31:30.500 company? So Ray and Sorby did what anyone would do, and they Googled old white man and found the

04:31:37.100 first photo, slapped it up on LinkedIn, slapped it up on the Centra website, said he went to Harvard

04:31:44.980 also, and called it a day. They had a brand new CEO with some legitimacy. And called him a co-founder

04:31:51.620 of the company, too. But this House of Cards 2 would crumble fantastically. And here's a little

04:31:57.140 bit of that from the Netflix film, BitCont. Hello, I'm Michael Edwards, founder and CEO

04:32:05.540 of Centratech. Is that who you really are? No, that's not who I really am. I'm Dr. Andrew

04:32:15.420 Haleiko. I'm a professor at the University of Manitoba. On August 25th, Michael Edwards suddenly

04:32:22.980 left this world. He leaves behind his French bulldog Stanley and an accomplished career as

04:32:29.680 an investor and VP for Wells Fargo and Chase. He graduated with an MBA from Harvard University,

04:32:36.640 which prepared him for his most recent venture as co-founder and chief executive officer of

04:32:42.660 Centra Tech in Miami Beach, Florida.

04:32:46.820 That's pretty creepy.

04:32:50.860 Well, at least I had an MBA and I was well trained at Harvard.

04:32:56.660 I hadn't realized that they had actually gone to that extent.

04:33:01.800 Michael Edwards was never even a real person.

04:33:04.720 Not at all.

04:33:06.640 We completely created him from scratch.

04:33:09.300 The photos for Michael Edwards were just taken off Google.

04:33:11.480 We just looked up old white guy, looked at all the images, found an old white guy and just took that image.

04:33:20.320 And, you know, that was Michael Edwards.

04:33:22.980 Oh, my God.

04:33:24.280 And then you killed him off, Ray, when the press was sniffing around with an obit, a fake obit about his French bulldog Stanley.

04:33:35.500 The audacity.

04:33:37.360 Who wrote the obit?

04:33:38.140 That's a nice little touch, though, with the French bulldog.

04:33:40.040 and the crazy thing is that guy's like the sweetest man in the world i i i feel terrible

04:33:44.580 for that guy and he he took it really well like as far as like i even seen him recently like on

04:33:49.700 twitter like promoting the documentary yeah um no way yeah so he's a you know i feel i feel sorry

04:33:57.100 for him but it's a it's a you know hopefully he's not too upset about it at this point i was actually

04:34:01.640 shocked he um he did that scene because when we listened to sorby's trial there was like a dial

04:34:07.660 in thing during covid i i truly felt the worst for him out of like every victim because he didn't

04:34:13.640 invest anything he's like teaching a class one day and then like the mounties and the fbi roll

04:34:19.480 up and they're like we need to talk to you um and apparently he's like the sweetest guy ever so

04:34:24.000 he seems pretty sweet who wrote the obit who came up with the french bulldog stanley i'm just

04:34:29.440 curious that's definitely a sorby thing as soon as you hear french bulldog i think of sorby or

04:34:34.880 bird friend, if anything, but I was never a French bulldog guy. It's incredible. And now you need a

04:34:43.060 new fake CEO. And this is where your grandpa comes in, your 79 year old grandpa. So you put

04:34:49.200 his picture on there and a new profile fake for him. And not surprisingly, Nathaniel was not fooled

04:34:57.560 and pretty soon unearthed the fact that this is your grandpa and not, not another Harvard grad.

04:35:05.760 Yeah. No, I don't think we put him even as a Harvard grad. We used his real background and we just put his real name as the CEO. So like essentially I even asked him before I did it, which I feel bad that I even asked him, but it was a weird one because he was like on his deathbed at that point.

04:35:25.160 hmm okay so but he has no experience in this lane so it was clearly just a figurehead that

04:35:31.700 you know was meant to stave off further questions it didn't work and then just as things are looking

04:35:37.660 pretty dire like the new york times is on to you i think the new york times piece had hit

04:35:42.740 and it was extremely unfavorable like a like the like the tech guy who mistook you for another

04:35:51.180 company and wrote this favorable article. In come the South Koreans and resurrected Centratech

04:36:00.160 for no good apparent reason. I don't understand at all how they sniffed around and said, 0.95

04:36:07.820 sure, I want in. So explain what happened with them.

04:36:11.920 Yeah. So even though the New York Times article was bad and people make it sound more dire than

04:36:17.580 the situation was no one started taking their money out everybody because the price was being

04:36:23.160 controlled on the back end by me uh it kept going up everybody was see that they'd be like oh the

04:36:28.560 new york times is just this is a hit piece they were just like no matter what would happen as

04:36:33.920 long as that price was going up everybody stayed around um and then the south korean thing comes

04:36:40.080 about they they came into the chat rooms and they're like oh we want to invest big money and

04:36:44.120 everybody says big money you know like we're like all right yeah sure and they're like you got to

04:36:47.800 come to south korea and we're like uh yeah sure we're definitely not going to south korea but

04:36:52.860 then right away they just send five million dollars we're like oh shit um i guess we'll go

04:36:57.760 to south korea and but i wasn't i wasn't gonna go i was not going to south korea and uh sorby just

04:37:03.500 jumps on a plane by himself and goes down there to present basically we hadn't finished developing

04:37:09.780 The app was in a prototype stage right there at that point.

04:37:13.840 It wasn't finished, but we basically connected it to our bank account

04:37:18.300 so that if he swiped his card, it would look as if the app worked properly.

04:37:24.180 But it didn't.

04:37:25.500 He goes over to South Korea, he meets with these execs,

04:37:28.820 and you're supposed to have this dazzling demo of an app

04:37:32.060 that will at least look like it's working, and it didn't.

04:37:37.000 Yeah, the app definitely didn't work.

04:37:39.500 and then Sorby doesn't answer for about eight hours there

04:37:42.160 or whatever amount of hours.

04:37:43.400 So I'm like, Sorby died.

04:37:44.940 At that point, I was sure Sorby was dead.

04:37:47.960 Right, right.

04:37:49.120 Yeah, because they had already invested $5 million, right?

04:37:51.580 So it's like there's real pressure there.

04:37:53.480 It's not like they can just be like, all right, whatever.

04:37:56.880 So then out of nowhere, he answers whatever amount of hours later

04:38:00.580 and he's just like, the app didn't work, but they still invested.

04:38:04.380 And the only take that I could get from that

04:38:06.320 is that that money was also criminal proceeds.

04:38:09.700 And that's like a lot of cryptocurrency

04:38:11.240 is that they joined in on the fraud.

04:38:14.340 Everybody, like even the YouTubers, right? 0.98

04:38:16.400 They're all complicit in a way in this fraud.

04:38:18.900 As much as we're the co-founders

04:38:20.780 and we're the reason for this fraud.

04:38:22.700 If you're going to know something's a fraud

04:38:24.320 and then you're going to promote it

04:38:25.420 and then these guys see the app doesn't work

04:38:27.960 and they're still going to invest

04:38:29.140 and take a lot of the percentage,

04:38:32.300 everybody's complicit at that point.

04:38:34.720 That is a very good point.

04:38:36.320 That actually, I hadn't even considered that until you just said it. Of course, that's the

04:38:39.800 reason. Why, why, why else would they give you? How much additional money did they give you after

04:38:43.840 that initial five and then the failed app? 10, another 10, 15 million total. Another 10. Oh my

04:38:49.880 God. You're right. That's that, that makes perfect sense. So what leads to the downfall? How do we

04:38:56.860 go from 15 million cash influx? Maybe we are going to be legitimate. We dodged the New York

04:39:02.920 times storm we weathered it what what led to the implosion yeah so pretty shortly after that me and

04:39:11.740 sorby i went and lied on the stand for sorby in his dwi case and i got a perjury charge for trying

04:39:17.840 to lie on the stand for him and uh wow after that we were like put out a press release that we were

04:39:23.620 stepping down from the company sorby stayed on and basically me and sorby got in a really bad fight

04:39:28.600 because I was still trying to pay back the debts

04:39:31.860 that we had built for Miami Exotics.

04:39:34.100 Even though we had all this money,

04:39:35.060 I was like, all right, let's take some of this money

04:39:36.380 and pay off these debts.

04:39:37.500 And he was trying to not pay it.

04:39:39.160 So I got in a bad argument with him

04:39:41.020 and I left the company.

04:39:43.380 So what people don't realize is

04:39:44.600 I never made any money from investor funds

04:39:46.840 ever throughout this whole time.

04:39:48.840 Sorby had those wallets himself.

04:39:51.880 And this is also why my sentence was what it was.

04:39:55.100 It's just, they highlight me in the documentary

04:39:57.120 because of i'm the one in it uh so i made all my money i made all my money off selling centra

04:40:04.640 tokens myself after the fact okay so but what you lied in the dwi can i just ask i know this is

04:40:13.200 probably small ball after the frauds that we've been discussing but was there any pause about

04:40:18.600 lying on the stand i don't mean i'm a former lawyer recovering lawyer so i just always feel

04:40:22.520 Like you take the oath to tell the truth, right?

04:40:25.920 And then you lie like that had to be scary.

04:40:30.600 Explain it.

04:40:33.740 Yeah, I mean, Sorby had this DWI from before I even linked back up with him from years ago.

04:40:39.500 It was like his 17th DWI and he was going to lose his license.

04:40:43.280 He asked me to do it.

04:40:45.520 We flew to New York.

04:40:46.440 I had never, I wasn't with him the day he got it.

04:40:48.360 So we went to the restaurant where he had got this DWI.

04:40:50.960 We kind of studied the room so I would have, like, the correct answers.

04:40:54.280 His lawyer prepped me on what to say, basically, which is a crazy fact of the case.

04:41:01.240 And I just kind of went up there and said what I was told to say, that he only had one

04:41:05.880 glass of Pinot Grigio, and from there, you know, pretty much got arrested shortly after

04:41:11.360 that.

04:41:12.760 What was the outcome of his trial?

04:41:14.620 I know it sounds, like, hard to do, but I was, you know, under a lot of, you know,

04:41:19.040 taking all the Xanax.

04:41:20.320 I mean, I didn't feel hard at the time.

04:41:23.400 Did he get off?

04:41:25.340 No, no, we both, he ended up getting charged for that.

04:41:28.600 I don't know what his result,

04:41:29.880 I think we both got charged with perjury.

04:41:31.840 That was my, ended up being my first felony.

04:41:34.820 Oh, okay.

04:41:35.600 And why do you say, Johnny, this part drives you crazy?

04:41:38.420 Because, I mean, you mentioned several times

04:41:40.720 about how like, well, everything seems so brash,

04:41:43.420 everything like, you know, the audacity of everything.

04:41:45.980 raise yeah and sorby's like um their their weight for risk reward it needs to be recalibrated in my

04:41:54.880 opinion it's like so out of there's no reason you know at this point raise raise business partners

04:42:00.480 with sorby but it's not like he necessarily likes him so why why would you do that and we've talked

04:42:06.960 about this a lot and the answer is oh why wouldn't i do it like i know how to talk on the stand like

04:42:14.200 you know i would do it for you and i was like that it doesn't really compute but ray just has

04:42:19.140 a very different you know um you know weight of risk and reward yeah do you have you ever met

04:42:27.940 jordan belfort no no but the funny thing is censure started shortly after that movie came out

04:42:34.340 he's spectacular i think he's an amazing guy he's also brilliant and uses powers for evil

04:42:41.720 and now is on the straight and narrow

04:42:43.680 and espousing a lot of lessons on it.

04:42:46.120 You should definitely read his stuff

04:42:47.140 and watch some of his podcasts

04:42:48.440 because there's probably some gold in there

04:42:50.160 for you to mine too.

04:42:52.240 I definitely do.

04:42:52.980 I do watch some of his podcasts for sure.

04:42:55.460 Yeah.

04:42:56.340 Anyway, your story is kind of reminding me of his,

04:42:58.140 which is why I ask.

04:42:59.420 So, all right, you've got to step down from the company.

04:43:02.220 Things between you and Sori are not good.

04:43:04.360 And then is it the SEC letter that the company gets

04:43:07.440 that's the beginning of the end?

04:43:08.560 Because finally the SEC was like,

04:43:11.020 hmm maybe we need to step in yeah for sure so i had left the company and sorby was continuing on

04:43:18.280 and within like two months after me leaving the sec got involved i was just in the deep end just

04:43:23.080 gambling hundreds of thousands of dollars every day so when sorby called me about the sec

04:43:27.760 he was like oh just go meet with this lawyer it's just the sec it's civil and i was like

04:43:32.380 civil stuff i mean if it's just civil i'm fine you know like that's really not that scary

04:43:38.680 And so I just met with the lawyer and they were like,

04:43:41.360 well, you have a couple options here.

04:43:42.720 You can cooperate.

04:43:43.980 And I'm like, oh, what does it take to cooperate?

04:43:45.640 And they tried to meet with me at that time.

04:43:47.460 And I was just on way too many Xanax.

04:43:49.000 They're like, well, you can't even form a sentence right now.

04:43:52.940 So it's not going to be a great friendship yet.

04:43:57.220 And by the way, speaking of attorneys,

04:43:59.440 this is another strain of the story that's crazy.

04:44:03.000 You, at some point, did hire a lawyer to help Centratech do what?

04:44:09.600 Like, were you looking for somebody to help you cover up what you were doing

04:44:12.260 or for somebody to help you straighten out?

04:44:16.300 Yeah, so what happened with that, it's early on in the company,

04:44:20.340 there was a company that had got charged by the SEC for being a security.

04:44:24.880 And we were just trying to find out if our company was a security.

04:44:27.880 so Sorby had went on

04:44:30.020 I think he found this guy on Upwork

04:44:32.340 and funny enough

04:44:34.220 my lawyer right now, my criminal lawyer

04:44:36.040 I spoke to him the other day, he said there's a guy

04:44:37.600 trying to act as if it's him on Upwork

04:44:40.400 that's really not him

04:44:41.340 so this must be like a common new scheme

04:44:43.960 that people are doing

04:44:45.000 but yeah, this guy basically put out his whole

04:44:47.760 LinkedIn and everything that he worked

04:44:50.120 as a big time lawyer for politicians

04:44:52.320 and stuff and Sorby hired him

04:44:53.720 paid him a couple thousand dollars

04:44:54.700 and was giving you legal advice, you were listening to his legal advice

04:44:58.600 Yeah, he basically just told us, yeah, this is what we have to do to remain not a security.

04:45:02.880 And we took his word for it, for sure.

04:45:05.880 And tell us what happened with him.

04:45:09.340 Once the SEC got involved, Sorby had said that was who we used as counsel.

04:45:14.300 And because of that, he ended up getting arrested.

04:45:17.180 And yeah, so he got arrested and charged.

04:45:20.820 And I think he's out now.

04:45:23.180 And it turned out he was a kid.

04:45:25.440 yeah yeah he was just like some random young kid that was in college

04:45:29.940 my god this is crazy he wasn't even a lawyer he wasn't even like he hadn't even graduated from

04:45:36.960 college yeah he was uh he was like uh students for trump at the time in in college and he was

04:45:43.980 doing this like on the side while he's like just playing video games and stuff my you must be a

04:45:49.380 little disappointed in yourself that you didn't spot that particular con right he was kind of

04:45:52.860 conning you i yeah i never spoke to him sore we did but yeah he definitely got us he was uh he

04:45:58.420 you know i think ray's uh reaction to it is more like well that was a good one like yeah yeah i

04:46:04.740 don't like i don't take like i'm not like oh this guy got us like we gotta get him back i mean it is

04:46:09.500 what it is we were doing you know scammy stuff and he did the same yeah you're like going over

04:46:16.180 on us. Yeah, I guess like, it's not like a respect. I'm not like proud of them, but

04:46:22.180 it's again, but they're very audacious who pretends they're a lawyer and starts giving

04:46:27.540 advice to a crypto company on whether they're a security. That's really bold. Again, all these

04:46:33.820 guys out there who could be using these talents for good. All right. So long story short, you

04:46:38.300 wind up cutting a deal with the government because it did, it did turn criminal and you get time

04:46:43.620 served. So did you serve any time while awaiting that final negotiated settlement? I did about

04:46:52.420 five days in, in Florida when I first got arrested and then they released me to rehab. I did like a

04:46:58.000 30 day rehab and I was on house arrest for about a year. And, uh, no, besides that, that was my

04:47:03.640 time served. Did the government want you to get more than time served? No, no, they, they didn't

04:47:10.560 I think they were like like how they break that down is what people don't realize is they really believe that I was never going to commit another crime.

04:47:18.480 And I think, in my opinion, that the government is smart.

04:47:22.420 I don't think that they're just like out of pocket, like, oh, he helped us so much.

04:47:25.840 We should give him no time.

04:47:27.000 It was that they truly believe that I wasn't going to be out there committing any more crimes.

04:47:30.480 And I think that's how they gauge it.

04:47:33.000 As far as with Sorby, they felt that it was definitely likely if they gave him less time that he would come back out and do more crimes.

04:47:38.900 And I, you know, I happen to agree with the government.

04:47:43.300 He went away for eight years and is still in prison right now.

04:47:47.160 Correct. 1.00

04:47:48.800 And Farkas got one year?

04:47:51.560 Yeah, he did about eight months.

04:47:54.340 Am I wrong in thinking that this judge who wound up sentencing you was like a little swoony?

04:48:01.660 I mean, I was hearing what she said to you.

04:48:04.560 I'm like, what's the matter?

04:48:06.060 She sounds like a schoolgirl who has a crush and not like a judge sentencing a felon.

04:48:13.540 So that's the part is that that's not like I helped the government.

04:48:18.220 I don't know why they considered me better than other cooperatives that they've dealt with in the past.

04:48:24.240 I was very honest.

04:48:25.500 And then during that time, I also got married, had kids, and I became a drug counselor for about three years leading up into my sentencing.

04:48:34.140 and sorby on the other hand was breaking curfew going to strip clubs so it's like

04:48:38.180 there's a pretty clear reason why in my opinion that i got time served and then all my the money

04:48:44.840 that i made i owe in restitution so i pay that monthly so it's like i don't i hear what you're

04:48:50.600 saying as far as like but that's just what the government's recommendation it wasn't the the

04:48:56.280 judge the judge they cut out a small snippet of what the judge was saying to me she gave me a hard

04:49:00.920 time at first. And there's just basically that the cooperation was essentially better than what

04:49:08.520 they typically have as a cooperator. Okay. So what about the victims? Because, you know, we've been

04:49:18.100 laughing and there's some aspects of the story. They're just so sort of extraordinary. You can

04:49:23.340 only laugh. But in this case, as with Sam Bankman-Fried, there are people who actually got

04:49:29.760 hurt. And they're going to watch this and they're going to want to know what you have to say to them.

04:49:36.320 Yeah, no, absolutely. And out of everything, that's the one thing that I truly regret the

04:49:41.000 most is that people lost money. They also have, you know, we were charged with a $32 million

04:49:46.740 fraud. They have $33.5 million to give back. The only reason that the money has been held up is

04:49:54.280 because there's a class action suit to try to be able to control how the distribution works.

04:49:59.760 So there's more money than we were charged with in seized assets.

04:50:05.600 That's actually also like Sam Bankman-Fried.

04:50:08.300 Most of his victims, maybe all, got repaid,

04:50:13.300 but the allegation in court was they could have earned more on that money

04:50:17.780 had it been invested in the way they thought it was being invested.

04:50:20.860 I mean, is that parallel to your case too?

04:50:24.560 Yeah, exactly.

04:50:25.600 And that was one of Sharma's main arguments as well,

04:50:28.760 is that you've never seen a fraud like this

04:50:30.680 where there was more money seized than actually raised.

04:50:34.500 So it's a weird case in that regard.

04:50:38.360 And I honestly haven't even met anybody

04:50:41.900 that's lost money.

04:50:43.240 I really don't know.

04:50:44.440 And I'm sorry to whoever did lose money.

04:50:48.640 So this was all wrapped up in 2018?

04:50:53.900 Yes, 2018.

04:50:56.040 Okay.

04:50:56.680 And now what?

04:50:58.120 like, you know, you're, you're married. Is it true you met your wife with your ankle bracelet on?

04:51:03.400 Yes, I did meet my wife with my ankle bracelet on. I was, uh, yeah, I was, I was, I actually just

04:51:09.540 was allowed curfew. Like, you know, at first I was on house arrest, full house arrest. And then

04:51:14.240 I went out when I first got my, uh, my curfew is a smaller ankle bracelet. So it wasn't the big one.

04:51:20.100 Oh, but yeah, I mean, I was also like a year on house arrest.

04:51:24.380 yeah I was also like I don't know

04:51:26.780 not everybody cares that much

04:51:29.460 like if you're honest about what your pass was

04:51:31.520 and why you have that ankle brace

04:51:32.740 and it wasn't like I was trying to hide it

04:51:34.220 I was making you know like jokes about it right

04:51:36.880 and then I don't know

04:51:38.620 just pretty much fell in love pretty quick there

04:51:42.220 she's a great woman

04:51:45.340 Johnny is it a good match

04:51:47.560 do you see why she overlooked Ray's past

04:51:50.800 yeah I totally kind of get why

04:51:53.660 Ray's very honest about who he is, and I think that's a big part of, like, the draw, and I think it comes across as genuine, and you kind of tend to, especially when you're talking to him and, like, he's being so honest and open with everything, you kind of just tend to forget about that, and you're, like, just talking to, like, a charismatic person, so I could kind of see how that happened.

04:52:18.220 do you think he's gonna do you think he's gonna stay on us on the straight and narrow

04:52:24.460 like if you had to bet so we i we talk about this a little bit at the um the end of the podcast

04:52:31.600 where ray and i were like we went out to atlantic beach and we were sitting there and you know

04:52:37.340 there's a big test coming up ray's eventually going to get off probation and then he's not

04:52:42.500 going to have these like court mandated drug tests i actually lived with ray the last time

04:52:47.340 got off probation and didn't have court mandated drug tests. And after three years or something of

04:52:53.040 being sober, he was back on drugs within like a week or something like that. And I, I, there's

04:52:58.920 always that fear there. Um, and you know, we could just take it day by day. I don't think it's going

04:53:04.900 to happen. And I think he's in like such a good place mentally now compared to where he was earlier

04:53:10.940 in his life that I'm less worried, but it's still a worry. What are you doing for a living now,

04:53:16.920 Ray? Me? I mean, I'm trying to write a book, did a podcast, and I'm trying to start a new business

04:53:23.060 now. I'm afraid. What is it? Just like web development. I mean, I'll definitely never do

04:53:30.360 another crime, like a web development company. So talk to me about how you know that, because

04:53:35.900 in other interviews I've done with criminals, especially those who spend a life doing frauds,

04:53:41.560 they talk about the adrenaline rush from doing it and how that is something that is hard

04:53:46.300 in the way a drug addict wants the rush of the drug.

04:53:49.620 Some of these criminals need the rush of the adrenaline.

04:53:52.400 They really like and are addicted to living life on the edge.

04:53:57.120 Yeah, for sure.

04:53:58.400 But I also was 24, 25 when I was doing these crimes,

04:54:02.160 and now I'm 33, and I've had a massive adrenaline dump

04:54:07.280 after this all happened, right?

04:54:09.580 So I think when you're sober for a certain amount of time,

04:54:13.120 that's one thing that I speak about this a lot,

04:54:15.620 is this case saved my life.

04:54:17.400 If I wasn't arrested there, I was dead

04:54:19.420 within probably the next couple months.

04:54:21.580 I was spending all my money, gambling

04:54:23.560 millions of dollars a month.

04:54:25.640 As soon as I went broke, I would have definitely

04:54:27.440 been dead.

04:54:29.900 So the case

04:54:31.560 saved my life. That's why I'm grateful for

04:54:33.560 how this all played out.

04:54:35.700 Obviously, especially with the no time

04:54:37.380 sentence and where my life is today.

04:54:42.720 I forgot

04:54:43.720 the original question.

04:54:45.480 Just whether you need the adrenaline of the crime

04:54:48.180 and whether that's going to be a tough habit to break.

04:54:51.060 No, I don't think so.

04:54:52.440 I think just like off drugs,

04:54:54.080 it's pretty easy to not commit crimes

04:54:55.760 and do the right thing.

04:54:57.160 I think as long as I stay sober,

04:55:00.000 there's no worry to society.

04:55:03.600 Have you gotten any therapy?

04:55:05.220 I mean, I don't want to blame it all on childhood trauma,

04:55:07.760 but it does seem like it's an obvious suspect

04:55:10.640 for why you wound up making these choices.

04:55:13.100 uh yeah i've done therapy um i did a ton of like drug counseling and then i became a drug

04:55:20.600 counselor throughout this time and working with other people that had sexual abuse like uh trauma

04:55:26.040 kind of helped me a lot just kind of seeing i don't know i i feel like i'm a weird person

04:55:32.060 because i compartmentalize it or whatever it may be but there's people that like in their 50s and

04:55:37.560 they're still crying about it every day and i don't know i couldn't find a way to like break

04:55:41.920 them through it. And I feel like it doesn't hold any weight now that I've talked about it open.

04:55:47.240 That's great. I think I'm in a very good place.

04:55:49.880 Great skill. No, I completely believe in compartmentalization. If you can do it,

04:55:54.680 lean in. So I'm just curious. So like, what's your wife's name?

04:56:00.080 Kim. Kimberly.

04:56:01.640 So when you and Kim go to parties and you meet new people, how do you work this into the

04:56:06.720 conversation? Like, yeah. So how do you let people know this is part of your story?

04:56:11.920 Um, I just tell everybody pretty openly. I don't, people that meet me, they all are like,

04:56:19.540 oh, he's actually a nice guy. Like most people think when they meet you, they don't know. So

04:56:24.040 I mean like then there's the big reveal. Yeah. I just kind of tell them my full story. I like,

04:56:30.580 don't hide it at all. It's like, I'm like, yeah, I had a company and then I got in trouble down

04:56:34.300 in Miami and they're like, oh, what would you do? And I like, I had a cryptocurrency company.

04:56:38.780 we raised you know some money and we got in trouble it's and and then like they just

04:56:43.560 it's the short version you know whatever is he's telling us telling them the truth

04:56:47.280 all right i gotta tell you something my husband and i not long ago went to this dinner party

04:56:52.320 and there were maybe 14 people there and we played a game per the host where he asked all of us to

04:56:58.960 write down on a piece of paper something some interesting or fun fact about ourselves without

04:57:05.080 like the host would know who, no, the host wouldn't know. Nobody would know who it was.

04:57:12.660 So you didn't write your name on the card. Then the host takes all the folded up pieces of paper

04:57:16.580 and the host reads one after the other. And he reads one and then everybody at the table votes

04:57:22.260 on who at the table they think this fact or story belongs to. And the stories were crazy.

04:57:29.220 Some were tame, like a woman who used to play the tuba in a marching band or something.

04:57:36.720 It was like, whatever.

04:57:38.020 And then some were actually bizarre.

04:57:39.860 Like I had two wives at the same time.

04:57:42.080 You know, this is the greatest game ever for you with your friends who don't know this story and haven't watched Netflix or listened to the pod.

04:57:50.560 Am I wrong?

04:57:51.080 I mean, I think you need to do it.

04:57:53.380 Yeah, I mean, I don't know who I would play it with, but it sounds fun.

04:57:57.340 You got to get people like me who didn't know anything about this until my team brought your

04:58:01.320 story to me. Listen, I wish you all the best. And let me give the podcast another promo. Give me

04:58:06.560 the name again. What is it called again, Johnny? Creating a con, the story of BitCond.

04:58:11.900 All right. Creating a con, the story of BitCond. And it's you two together going through the

04:58:16.800 gory details of all of this. I wish you all the best. I hope things go very well for you

04:58:22.240 in the white hat lane.

04:58:25.620 And Johnny, to you as well.

04:58:26.720 Thanks for coming on and telling the story.

04:58:28.780 Thank you so much.

04:58:29.700 Appreciate it.

04:58:30.580 Thank you so much.

04:58:31.440 We'll stay on this story

04:58:32.300 and we'll definitely get Ray connected

04:58:33.820 with Jordan Belfort.

04:58:35.200 Can't wait to see where that goes.

04:58:37.680 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. 0.92

04:58:39.580 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 03, 2026

Golden State Killer, Crypto Convict, Genetic Genealogy - Megyn's ＂True Crime＂ Mega-Episode

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