The Megyn Kelly Show - Haley vs. Vivek Fight Club, and More GOP Debate Highlights, with Michael Knowles, Emily Jashinsky, Michael Moynihan, and Charles C.W. Cooke

00:00:00.620 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:12.060 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.420 Oh, we've got a lot of thoughts on the latest battle between the Republican presidential candidates, minus one, which we'll get to in just a moment.

00:00:22.460 But first, I wanted to share some big news with you. Save the date.

00:00:26.820 December 6th is the next GOP presidential debate, and I'm happy to tell you that I will be returning to the debate moderator's chair that evening.

00:00:37.440 Alongside News Nation's Elizabeth Vargas and a name you also know, the Washington Free Beacon's Eliana Johnson, our pal, who you know from the Free Beacon and hopefully from this show as well,

00:00:49.960 where the three of us together will take on these candidates and try to shed some light on what differentiates them.

00:00:57.360 News Nation is the host of the debate, and you can catch the debate live on News Nation as well as here on Sirius XM.

00:01:03.780 And Eliana, you know, is a great friend of this show. The big event will take place in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

00:01:10.760 So I'm I'm very excited for this. As you know, it's been a frustration for me to watch some of the earlier debates this season because, you know, it's like I think it's the way a pitcher feels when he or she watches somebody else pitch.

00:01:22.700 You know, like you can appreciate their style, but you might do it your own way and your way is kind of how you want to see it done.

00:01:28.980 So not to take anything away from all the debate moderators, but there certainly have been a couple who have been absolutely awful.

00:01:35.720 That's the truth. So I'm excited to get back out there. And I love Eliana and I don't know Elizabeth Vargas well, but I'm excited to spend time with her.

00:01:43.760 She and I have children at a school together for a while, and I've always admired her.

00:01:48.640 She's always been very cool, very fun to watch in her years on ABC, consummate pro.

00:01:52.740 So so we're already neck deep in it, all of us. And it's been fun so far, and it's going to be even more fun for you on 12 six.

00:02:00.560 Don't forget my big takeaway from last night. Nothing changed. Absolutely nothing changed.

00:02:06.980 And that means former President Trump won. He won by not participating.

00:02:10.800 But it is becoming more and more clear that this has really become a two person race for second place.

00:02:15.600 The question is, can either of them, Nikki or DeSantis, defeat the 800-pound gorilla? And if so, how?

00:02:24.400 Well, how exactly? We've got an all-star lineup to discuss it all for you today.

00:02:29.860 In just a bit, I'll be joined by Charles C.W. Cook and Michael Knowles.

00:02:33.960 But we begin today with Eliana's partner in crime, one half of the duo we affectionately call the EJs here on The Megyn Kelly Show, Emily Jashinsky.

00:02:43.000 She's culture editor at The Federalist and host of The Federalist Radio Hour.

00:02:47.660 And Michael Moynihan is here as well. He's co-host of The Fifth Column.

00:02:51.760 Back again today. Emily, Michael, great to have you.

00:02:57.020 Thanks, Megan. And I should say, if anyone is going to commit a crime, probably it's going to be Michael.

00:03:02.340 Yes. I don't know why, but I think the answer is probably yes.

00:03:06.380 He's someone's partner in crime.

00:03:09.260 With, like, zero hesitation, he signed on to that.

00:03:12.620 Oh, for sure, for sure.

00:03:13.480 He knows what he did.

00:03:14.500 Yeah, a very long criminal record.

00:03:16.840 Call me when you get pulled over by the police and we'll talk, before you talk to them, ideally.

00:03:21.780 Okay, so we saw the debate.

00:03:24.640 I have to say I enjoyed watching last night's debate.

00:03:26.880 I did not enjoy watching the first two.

00:03:28.440 And I'm just going to give it to you, honestly, I thought that the first two baits were a hot mess shit show in many ways.

00:03:36.020 It was hard to follow.

00:03:37.180 The moderators didn't have control.

00:03:39.260 There was too much talking over one another.

00:03:42.040 The second debate wasted so much time.

00:03:44.240 It's sort of the first on nonsense questions with, you know, teeing up rich men north of Richmond by the singer and, like, stuff about UFOs.

00:03:52.600 And who's the last person on the Survivor Island?

00:03:55.120 It was like, would you ask relevant questions and just shrink, then shrink.

00:04:01.480 Toss them the ball.

00:04:02.640 Let them be the stars.

00:04:04.200 Let them mix it up with each other.

00:04:05.520 Keep control so we can follow the arguments.

00:04:07.860 But it was a frustration.

00:04:10.100 Last night, they didn't do those things.

00:04:12.520 So I liked that.

00:04:13.320 All the questions were substantive and on point.

00:04:15.960 And I thought NBC, surprisingly, but most likely because it was under fire, did a good job of not sounding like they were working for MSNBC that night.

00:04:25.880 You know, it was pretty much straight down the middle.

00:04:29.480 However, here is a cardinal sin as a moderator.

00:04:33.100 If I'm asking you two guys questions and you are the presidential candidates and, Emily, you say something and Michael disagrees with you and he jumps in like, no, actually, that's not what you said.

00:04:43.220 I can say, stand by.

00:04:45.740 I'll come to you next.

00:04:47.720 But what happened last night was he would jump in and then he would stop and you would finish your point.

00:04:53.560 And then they'd look at the third person over there and say, hey, you, Bob, here's a brand new topic.

00:04:58.620 And there was fire waiting to be caught.

00:05:03.140 You know, there was lightning in a bottle sitting right there if you would just go to Michael Moynihan.

00:05:06.740 But they wouldn't.

00:05:08.080 They'd go to some third party who wasn't involved in the skirmish on a totally different topic.

00:05:12.420 And therefore, what was missing from last night's debate, for the most part, was debate.

00:05:18.560 Debate.

00:05:19.280 It was conducted much more like a long form interview, which for me as somebody who's moderated debates was a frustration.

00:05:27.220 I want I don't want to see an exchange between Kristen Welker and the and the candidates.

00:05:31.980 I want to see them fight with each other.

00:05:34.560 And by fight, I mean, you know, spar.

00:05:36.600 I want to see them point out each other's weaknesses and differences.

00:05:39.660 So I walk away with I see.

00:05:41.780 Yeah, they are different.

00:05:42.640 That one.

00:05:43.300 Yeah, it's nuanced.

00:05:44.080 I see what he's saying.

00:05:45.200 And they'll go places the moderators won't go, which is interesting.

00:05:49.000 So it was missing that.

00:05:51.660 Anyway, you know, overall, I give it the highest mark of the three so far.

00:05:55.280 But there's still a ways to go.

00:05:57.760 Emily, what do you think?

00:05:59.240 Yeah, no, I agree with that.

00:06:00.360 I think also what helped a lot and I'd actually sort of forgotten about it because some of the candidates that weren't on the stage are so forgettable.

00:06:06.040 But I do think NBC had this incredible benefit of only having five candidates to wrangle.

00:06:11.220 That helped a lot.

00:06:12.840 Basically, I'm trying to not give too much credit to NBC because I think they learned from the first two debates.

00:06:18.800 And then they had this benefit of having only five candidates.

00:06:22.100 I agree with you.

00:06:22.980 They should have actually allowed some of the contrast to come out.

00:06:26.000 And I actually think that's why when Vivek Ramaswamy, as I think grating as he was for the rest of the debate, looked right at Kristen Walker and kind of tore into NBC News at the beginning of the debate.

00:06:39.560 I actually think that's why that was one of the better moments, because what you're doing by allowing NBC to host these debates is rewarding them for years of bad coverage.

00:06:49.960 You're putting your candidates in a risky situation where for primary voters, for a Republican primary voter, they should be taking these candidates should be taking very tough questions.

00:06:59.620 There's no there's no if and or but about that.

00:07:02.200 They should be facing the toughest possible questions, but they should be questions that allow Republican voters to suss out the contrast from their point of interest.

00:07:11.060 And Kristen Welker is not channeling the interests of the average Republican voter very well.

00:07:16.640 And I think that's why this entire first hour dedicated to foreign policy.

00:07:21.480 Some of those questions were great.

00:07:23.200 Do I think that matches the average voters?

00:07:25.760 I mean, foreign policy right now is incredibly important.

00:07:27.700 Again, no question about that.

00:07:29.220 But I think that's disproportionate to the average Republican voters concern.

00:07:32.760 I don't think there was much contrast that was brought out about foreign policy in that first hour.

00:07:37.440 I think it was long, long form interviews where they went on scripted sort of tangents about their own various degrees of experience on foreign policy.

00:07:47.320 And if you had a better moderator, I was so glad to see the announcement this morning, Megan.

00:07:51.540 If you had a better moderator, that would have been much more productive.

00:07:57.080 Well, thank you for that.

00:07:57.840 I will say I'm excited about the partnerships on this debate.

00:08:01.600 We've all been working on it together.

00:08:02.960 But News Nation is this up-and-coming, you know, new cable news channel that is trying to be in the middle.

00:08:12.340 And it's an ambitious undertaking.

00:08:14.660 It's very hard in today's news environment to do that.

00:08:17.540 But they're trying.

00:08:18.840 And so you've got them.

00:08:20.520 You know, they haven't planted a flag as righties or lefties.

00:08:23.480 So it's interesting.

00:08:24.560 And then you've got me and you've got Eliana.

00:08:27.240 Both of us are in sort of outside, you know, this sort of legacy media lane.

00:08:31.420 And that's exciting to me, too.

00:08:33.120 Like, I, I, when I left NBC, I did not anticipate I would be rejoining the ranks of presidential debate moderators.

00:08:40.580 Because historically, these debates have always gone to Fox, CNN, NBC, ABC, and CBS.

00:08:46.420 And that's it.

00:08:47.500 So for me, I'm excited because I wanted to get back in there.

00:08:51.480 And I know, to your point, I can ask these questions from the angle that is most interesting to the people who are going to make the decisions about these guys.

00:08:59.800 You know, I was saying the other day, I don't know that I'd be the perfect moderator for a Democratic primary, but I know I can do a great job on a Republican presidential debate.

00:09:08.660 And you're right.

00:09:09.180 The way in and out of the question is the big tell.

00:09:11.820 So let's spend a minute on that, the vague answer, which was like right out of the gate, his, the first thing he said, because it was very interesting and it was, went viral.

00:09:21.200 Nothing had really been asked.

00:09:22.820 You know, the moderators kind of opened it up with, why are you better than Trump, who's the front runner?

00:09:27.580 And DeSantis is like, well, because I am, you know, he got us into debt and he didn't build the wall.

00:09:32.460 Okay.

00:09:33.260 And then they're like, how about you, Mr. Ramaswamy?

00:09:35.640 And bam, here it is, thought two.

00:09:38.480 Why should you be the nominee and not the former president?

00:09:41.920 I think there's something deeper going on in the Republican Party here.

00:09:44.820 And I am upset about what happened last night.

00:09:47.740 We've become a party of losers at the end of the day.

00:09:50.640 We have a cancer in the Republican establishment.

00:09:53.320 Let's speak the truth.

00:09:54.180 I mean, since Ronna McDaniel took over as chairwoman of the RNC in 2017, we have lost 2018, 2020, 2022, no red wave that never came.

00:10:03.520 We got trounced last night.

00:10:05.340 This should be Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, and Elon Musk.

00:10:08.540 We'd have 10 times the viewership asking questions that GOP primary voters actually care about and bringing more people into our party.

00:10:15.880 Do you think the Democrats, and we've got Kristen Welker here, do you think the Democrats would actually hire Greg Gutfeld to host a Democratic debate?

00:10:23.160 They wouldn't do it.

00:10:25.060 And so the fact of the matter is, I mean, Kristen, I'm going to use this time because it's actually about you in the media and the corrupt media establishment.

00:10:31.160 Ask you the Trump-Russia collusion hoax that you pushed on this network for years.

00:10:35.800 Was that real or was that Hillary Clinton made up disinformation?

00:10:40.160 Answer the question.

00:10:41.140 Go.

00:10:43.560 So what did you like so much about that, Emily?

00:10:46.560 Well, I actually just like that if you're going to take the platform of NBC News, which I actually wish the candidates would have resisted it.

00:10:52.920 You should use it as an opportunity to remind people about their failures.

00:10:58.060 And it's just the big problem I have with NBC News is not that they lean left, it's that they're dishonest about it.

00:11:02.360 And I actually think it's helpful to start a debate by attacking that pretense because that pretense is the biggest problem in the world.

00:11:10.540 And the other thing is, you know, I actually wouldn't have focused on Lester Holt.

00:11:13.560 And I think Lester Holt, I actually think Kristen Walker is one of the better so-called mainstream journalists.

00:11:18.880 But Lester Holt is on the record saying basically fairness is overrated.

00:11:23.300 He's one of the biggest, I think, he's one of the biggest examples of how the media has reimagined its own duty to its audiences.

00:11:32.700 And so I think that was actually kind of a missed opportunity.

00:11:36.040 But I was glad that right out of the gate, we sort of had someone attack or shatter this illusion of neutrality because that's one of the biggest problems in media.

00:11:45.520 It's not that they aren't curious.

00:11:46.960 It's not that they aren't asking tough questions.

00:11:49.380 It's that they're pretending that they aren't leftists doing all of that.

00:11:54.000 He actually did say the exact quote you just said, a little color from the Kelly Brunt household last night we were watching it.

00:11:59.020 And my kids who, even when I was on NBC, didn't do a lot of watching of Lester Holt.

00:12:04.340 So one of them said, his name is Molester?

00:12:09.880 Who would name their child that?

00:12:13.880 It's short for that.

00:12:15.040 It's a very Brooklyn name these days.

00:12:17.500 It's wild names that we have in Brooklyn.

00:12:19.380 You know, I love little children humor because it's my own, too.

00:12:23.120 So I share the same sense.

00:12:25.100 So Moynihan, how about you?

00:12:26.460 Before I want to get to your top moment, too, but let's stay on the Vivek answer for a minute.

00:12:30.880 Yeah.

00:12:32.320 An answer can have a lot of things in it that are true and also be a bad answer.

00:12:37.480 I thought it was a very bad answer.

00:12:38.720 I mean, for a few reasons.

00:12:40.380 Number one, you haven't allowed the debate to take place and you're already impugning the moderators.

00:12:47.240 I know they don't have the best history.

00:12:49.660 Most people, as Emily said previously, want to know things about issues that are of concern to them.

00:12:56.500 You know, replaying out of the gate, like the media thing.

00:12:59.080 Look, he's doing the Trump cover band thing, right?

00:13:02.160 I mean, at the beginning, he says, you know, Rona, this is the problem.

00:13:06.920 2018, 2020, 2022, last night.

00:13:10.700 Who's missing from that?

00:13:12.460 Well, Donald Trump.

00:13:13.420 I mean, obviously.

00:13:14.060 And so Donald Trump is obviously a problem and very, very bad cover bands of Donald Trump.

00:13:20.280 Bad MAGA candidates, which is what destroyed the Republicans in 2022.

00:13:24.400 The Herschel Walkers of the world.

00:13:26.020 The Mehmet Oz's of the world.

00:13:27.520 And, you know, we've seen this in the past with Sharon Engel back in, what, 2012.

00:13:32.000 And, you know, I am not a witch, O'Donnell.

00:13:34.860 But this kind of thing, when you come out of the gate and you say, oh, let's do the media thing.

00:13:40.160 Because you are not Donald Trump.

00:13:42.300 You cannot do Donald Trump.

00:13:44.060 Do you know that people have been saying for, you know, 50 years, you know, Brent Bozell's

00:13:49.200 organization has been around for a very long time saying the media is liberal.

00:13:52.220 People know the media is liberal.

00:13:53.460 The way Donald Trump did that was a very, very particular thing that he did.

00:13:58.700 He did it very well.

00:14:00.440 And, you know, I didn't love the tone always, but I've been in press pens when entire stadiums

00:14:05.840 of people turn around and boo you.

00:14:07.120 And I'm like, this is actually pretty entertaining and working.

00:14:10.640 And then you leave the press pen and people are all nice to you.

00:14:12.940 It's kind of, you know, professional wrestling in a way.

00:14:15.500 But Vivek is constantly trying to do the Donald Trump impression.

00:14:19.420 And you know that that was scripted.

00:14:21.120 This was not a moment.

00:14:22.260 And every person who knows anything about Republican politics remembers Ronald Reagan

00:14:26.240 saying, I paid for this microphone.

00:14:28.540 What an amazing moment.

00:14:29.940 Now, in the social media age, you have Vivek and a team of people writing this stuff, the

00:14:34.800 three-inch heels comment to Nikki Haley.

00:14:38.180 This, well, you know, whatever the question was going to be, he was going to land on NBC

00:14:42.180 is bad.

00:14:42.840 Yes, NBC has done absolutely ridiculous things, particularly on the Trump-Russia stuff.

00:14:48.080 But you're just trying to get applause lines and you're trying to make a viral moment.

00:14:52.000 I don't think that that does anything for the average American voter.

00:14:56.300 And by the way, I want to say that I think Emily was right, too, that foreign policy is

00:14:59.840 very important.

00:15:00.920 It has taken the backseat in so many previous elections.

00:15:04.180 But it was a very long time.

00:15:06.340 And even the moderators, I think it was one of the moderators who said, now let's get

00:15:09.460 on to something more or less saying that means a lot to the American people, the economy.

00:15:13.740 And that was an hour and 10 minutes into it.

00:15:16.440 So I think the order was a bit off.

00:15:18.360 And, you know, Megan, to your point about the style of debate, I think that that is correct.

00:15:25.320 I was sort of happy because the attempts to make people go at each other were so disastrous

00:15:31.320 in the last two debates that it was kind of calm.

00:15:34.540 And I was like, OK, I'm actually hearing the answers.

00:15:35.700 You know why?

00:15:35.840 Because they didn't control it.

00:15:37.500 That's why.

00:15:38.180 Because the moderators ceded control in the fight.

00:15:40.780 And that's where they fell down.

00:15:42.200 Debate is debate.

00:15:43.400 Debate means both candidates go back and forth at each other.

00:15:45.780 Maybe you bring in the third or fourth, whoever wants in and is relevant.

00:15:48.900 But you, as the moderators, your job to keep control so that the audience can hear and understand.

00:15:53.940 And they would understand that, you know, taking you guys as an example.

00:15:57.140 Again, I would just say, like, Mr. Shinsky, stand by.

00:16:00.620 You're going to get your your turn.

00:16:02.440 Go ahead, Mr. Moynihan, finish your point.

00:16:04.340 Right.

00:16:04.520 And so then then you will be respectful.

00:16:06.560 Then you're just going to.

00:16:07.200 Should I say something bad about Emily right now and test that?

00:16:10.220 Because I just insult her right now.

00:16:13.520 Is it scum?

00:16:14.400 Because that one's already been tried.

00:16:15.720 She, Emily, is scum and everyone knows it.

00:16:20.100 I should have prepared.

00:16:21.000 And to those who didn't watch last night, I am not calling Emily scum.

00:16:24.560 That is what Nikki Haley said about Vivek.

00:16:25.940 This will be contextualized very shortly.

00:16:28.100 Yes, we're contextualized.

00:16:29.220 Yes.

00:16:29.980 So I had some thoughts on the Vivek moment.

00:16:34.540 I love to see people bash NBC for very obvious and personal reasons.

00:16:39.460 But I also find them disgusting and biased for all the same reasons everybody else does.

00:16:44.300 I mean, the Russiagate thing is the perfect example.

00:16:46.100 He chose the best example, but I think it would have been much more effective if he had done

00:16:51.620 it in response to a biased question.

00:16:54.040 And they weren't hurling a lot of those at him last night, I think, intentionally.

00:16:58.280 They knew they had sinned and that any Republican up there would love to take advantage of their

00:17:02.740 many, many sins.

00:17:04.480 So it looked a little bit like, you know, in the courtroom, they always say, as a lawyer,

00:17:08.060 you can go after a witness, but he has to earn it.

00:17:11.120 Otherwise, the jury is going to be on his side instead of yours as the lawyer.

00:17:14.940 So you have to wait until they earn it.

00:17:17.740 And I think for some, you know, maybe people who aren't as obsessed with media as we are,

00:17:23.060 maybe they know the media generally the leans left, but they don't really know

00:17:26.000 Kristen Wilker's or Lester Holtz's media sins.

00:17:29.020 It might have seemed like, whoa, what's he doing?

00:17:32.120 Like he showed up, they're giving him a big platform.

00:17:35.580 He's in front of millions of people because of them.

00:17:37.280 Why is he attacking them like that?

00:17:38.820 So, you know, ideally for Vivek, he would have been attacked.

00:17:42.120 And I think before he did that, I don't think he was trying to channel Trump so much as he

00:17:46.540 was trying to channel Newt Gingrich, who had one of the most viral debate moments of all time.

00:17:53.200 He got asked a very personal question at the top of a debate with CNN by John King and let

00:18:00.460 him have it.

00:18:01.020 And Republicans all over the nation went, yes, yes.

00:18:05.980 Here it is.

00:18:06.620 Would you like to take some time to respond to that?

00:18:10.180 No, but I will.

00:18:19.500 I think the destructive, vicious, negative nature of much of the news media makes it harder to

00:18:27.120 govern this country, harder to attract decent people to run for public office.

00:18:31.020 And I am appalled that you would begin a presidential debate on a topic like that.

00:18:45.540 The audience leapt to its feet.

00:18:48.860 So he was looking for that.

00:18:50.480 And I will say to me, it seemed performative.

00:18:53.780 Newt Gingrich was authentic.

00:18:56.160 He he's one of the sharpest minds we've had.

00:18:58.300 I mean, truly, that guy is scary, smart.

00:19:01.760 He had it.

00:19:02.760 He knew he got attacked.

00:19:04.360 He flipped it on the moderator.

00:19:05.940 It was super effective.

00:19:07.820 His indignation was real.

00:19:10.160 Vivek, I'm so mad about what happened last night in those votes.

00:19:14.540 And I'm going to take it out.

00:19:15.460 I run.

00:19:15.880 You know, Vivek Ramaswamy's only voted one time in his life.

00:19:18.440 He's 38 years old.

00:19:19.340 He admits he never even went to the polls to ever vote for a single presidential race ever

00:19:22.780 presidential.

00:19:23.680 That's the one everybody manages to get done.

00:19:25.500 You know, like most people don't do primaries, what have you, except the most.

00:19:29.200 So suddenly he's like, I'm outraged about how the Republican Party is being run.

00:19:33.680 But you weren't even like really in politics until two minutes ago.

00:19:37.500 And then he takes aim at Ronna McDaniel, which, OK, fine.

00:19:39.980 A lot of people have problems with the RNC.

00:19:41.360 But the RNC has its hands in federal elections, not state elections like the ones we were seeing

00:19:45.320 everywhere last night.

00:19:46.360 So I'm not sure how you blame that on Ronna.

00:19:48.420 But OK, he called her out by name.

00:19:50.740 Again, she was the reason he was there.

00:19:52.840 The RNC and NBC provided the platform.

00:19:56.760 Then he names Tucker, Elon and Joe Rogan.

00:19:59.320 All right.

00:19:59.840 Tucker.

00:20:00.260 Yes, I could see that.

00:20:01.720 Elon Musk would never moderate a presidential debate.

00:20:04.700 Obviously, he's way too busy and important for you, Vivek.

00:20:07.640 Are any of you people up there?

00:20:09.300 Yes, he launched DeSantis to think that was on his platform, Twitter X now, because it

00:20:13.740 was it helps him.

00:20:14.940 But this is absurd to picture.

00:20:16.680 Sure.

00:20:17.280 I'm sure.

00:20:17.900 Why don't we get Superman to do it the next time?

00:20:19.860 And Joe Rogan is a Democrat.

00:20:21.440 Joe Rogan would be coming at him from a farther leftist position than Kristen Welker or Lester

00:20:26.660 Holt.

00:20:26.920 Just because he's non woke doesn't mean he's a Republican or understands the issues that

00:20:30.980 are important to Republican voters.

00:20:32.420 He was a Bernie Sanders supporter last time around.

00:20:34.660 So stop with the pander.

00:20:36.180 That was an obvious pander.

00:20:38.380 Oh, we'd have 10 times the rate.

00:20:39.660 OK.

00:20:40.420 All right.

00:20:40.820 Fine.

00:20:41.120 OK.

00:20:41.340 And then I didn't like the landing.

00:20:45.660 Answer it now.

00:20:47.720 It looked obnoxious.

00:20:50.780 It was a sort of a bully way to he didn't stick the landing.

00:20:54.380 It seemed like an open middle finger.

00:20:56.820 And it's just a bad dynamic.

00:20:58.560 Don't don't look at the female moderator who's like smiley and so far hasn't done anything

00:21:03.460 to upset anybody and be like, answer it now.

00:21:06.760 She's not running for president.

00:21:08.340 She's not running for chief media queen.

00:21:10.720 She's just like it just.

00:21:12.920 So that's why I didn't think net net that it worked, notwithstanding the fact that I

00:21:16.880 agree with everything you said, Emily, about what was appealing about it.

00:21:21.220 No, I agree with all of that.

00:21:22.640 Yeah.

00:21:22.800 And I hated the ending.

00:21:23.920 I hated that line about who should be moderating the debate.

00:21:26.440 It struck me as just insane, though, that Vivek was the only person of all of the candidates

00:21:31.560 so far in this cycle.

00:21:33.820 Gallup had its survey out last last month of its annual check in about media trust.

00:21:39.220 Actually, since 2016, when it hit a record low, they've been doing this since 1972.

00:21:44.120 We are back at that record low.

00:21:46.620 So if anything was going to fix the media, it would have been this realization that the

00:21:49.840 host of Celebrity Apprentice became president.

00:21:51.560 And, you know, to see the RNC and none of the candidates push back really hard on the

00:21:57.900 corporate press's cooperation in these debates has been really disappointing.

00:22:01.580 So for me, it was really great to just see like it wasn't it was so imperfect.

00:22:06.240 And I think his whole shtick worked in the first debate.

00:22:08.880 He was I got that sugar high afterwards.

00:22:10.800 I think everybody's sick of it now.

00:22:12.120 I think it comes across as totally performative.

00:22:14.140 But oh, my gosh, I just wish so badly that other Republicans would give the media the

00:22:19.680 respect it deserves.

00:22:20.720 And that would be sort of tearing away that pretense.

00:22:24.280 Well, to your point, that's one thing people love about Vivek is he's ballsy, you know,

00:22:28.640 like all the other candidates up there feel the same way about NBC, but nobody else really

00:22:33.740 kind of had the stones to shove it down their throat.

00:22:36.480 And so that's one thing you like about Vivek.

00:22:38.240 He's getting kind of ballsy.

00:22:39.620 And, you know, sometimes it works.

00:22:42.160 It was a little bit.

00:22:43.960 You remember, I don't know if you guys are old enough.

00:22:45.720 Moynihan, you are.

00:22:46.720 Sybil.

00:22:47.180 Remember Sybil was Hallie Field where she had the multiple.

00:22:50.720 Good Lord.

00:22:53.300 Yeah.

00:22:53.660 How far back do you want to go?

00:22:54.840 I'm just saying, when you grow up in the 70s and 80s, you know these references.

00:23:00.880 It was slightly even before even that time.

00:23:02.920 But she had multiple personality disorder.

00:23:05.260 So like in the first debate, Vivek was like, I fucking hate all of you.

00:23:09.760 Everybody's bought and paid for except for me.

00:23:11.660 Everyone sucks except for me.

00:23:13.620 And I'm the only one with the confidence to tell you the truth.

00:23:15.820 And then the second debate, he's like, he had some bad polls and some bad focus groups.

00:23:20.360 And he came out and he was like, oh, I, you know, I just got a little excited.

00:23:25.680 I kind of came across as a know-it-all, but I'm just a cheery, you know, soldier.

00:23:29.900 I'm just here to help.

00:23:30.700 Like, here, let's do it.

00:23:32.280 And then last night, he actually gave me an interview to ABC saying, my goal is to be

00:23:37.140 unhinged.

00:23:38.400 That was his word.

00:23:40.180 That's the most honest he is.

00:23:42.060 I mean, he doesn't feel honest when, and you're right.

00:23:45.500 I mean, I don't want to make any Red Fox references or anything to give away my advanced stage,

00:23:49.780 Megan.

00:23:50.400 But any other television shows you want to throw out there?

00:23:53.680 So like the Beverly Hillbillies used to say, no, the thing about Newt Gingrich and why

00:23:58.160 that is a good comparison, as Wheezy once said, but the good thing about that comparison

00:24:05.080 is showing that clip is irrelevant because the best thing about Newt's answer there is

00:24:10.920 when he says, do you want to answer this question?

00:24:13.340 He says, no, it's not, this is not something that they've been going over with Prompter.

00:24:18.540 He says, no, but I will.

00:24:20.820 And the answer is one to cut them down to size.

00:24:23.680 Now, I have to give NBC, actually, weirdly, MSNBC, a tiny bit of credit here.

00:24:29.900 My friend Steve Kornacki did an amazing podcast about Newt Gingrich that Newt Gingrich loved

00:24:35.600 so much that he called him and said, can I come on the last episode?

00:24:39.300 Because he said no initially.

00:24:40.380 And it goes over that Gingrich.

00:24:43.000 And you watch Gingrich's development as a politician.

00:24:45.840 And the one thing about him, you can love him, you can hate him, you can think the contract

00:24:49.020 with America was terrible or anything he did was terrible.

00:24:51.100 But you always get the sense of him that none of this is imprompter, that this is somebody

00:24:56.560 who actually believes in conservative ideals, conservative principles, which he can enumerate

00:25:01.360 very quickly on Mike.

00:25:02.920 And he goes out and shows you that.

00:25:05.100 Whereas, you know, Vivek and these guys, when he says, I'm trying to be this, that's not an

00:25:10.100 answer that anyone ever gives.

00:25:11.640 I'm trying to be something.

00:25:13.220 Be yourself.

00:25:13.820 Go and tell people who you believe, and then you will be selected for that office or in

00:25:19.120 the primary.

00:25:19.860 But you keep on trying to be the weathervane, say, what do Republicans want right now?

00:25:24.200 And I'm going to try to be it.

00:25:25.820 And I find it endlessly frustrating.

00:25:28.380 To me, it's very clear that Vivek has studied Tucker Carlson and wants to be just like him,

00:25:34.280 but lacks the charm and frankly, the savvy of Tucker.

00:25:38.300 I mean, Tucker is completely sincere.

00:25:41.400 He's read more books than anybody I've ever met.

00:25:44.560 He immerses himself in news and policy and thoughts and has for his entire adult career.

00:25:50.120 Every single book you see behind Tucker Carlson, he's read.

00:25:52.920 Same with you, Moynihan.

00:25:53.620 I know the truth.

00:25:54.760 But Emily, probably you too.

00:25:56.300 I'm just saying, I know it's a thing.

00:25:57.880 And he's immersed himself in politics and issues and culture and so on for his entire

00:26:03.600 professional life.

00:26:04.300 So you can't fake that.

00:26:05.780 Like you can try, you can watch his show and try to sound like him, but it's not going

00:26:11.000 to work.

00:26:11.440 We can tell what you're doing and he would be much better served if he would just be

00:26:15.720 himself like this really smart guy who went to Harvard and went to Yale Law and he's got

00:26:19.980 these, you know, interesting policy ideas and made a fortune in biotech and is sort of

00:26:25.020 evolving on these issues and learning as he goes.

00:26:26.880 That's fine.

00:26:27.460 That's fine.

00:26:27.880 We would understand that.

00:26:29.220 But don't come out there like, I'm pissed about all the Republican losses and Ronna McDaniel

00:26:34.260 needs me.

00:26:34.560 It's like, you don't know anything.

00:26:35.900 We all know you don't know anything about politics.

00:26:37.620 You've been in it for two minutes.

00:26:39.160 Show some humility in that lane.

00:26:40.480 OK, sorry.

00:26:41.600 OK, let's keep going.

00:26:43.340 Who did you think won, Emily, overall?

00:26:46.380 I think there's no question it was Nikki Haley.

00:26:48.420 And as much as I personally don't like Nikki Haley, I think she needed that moment because

00:26:52.740 now she is going to be super, super competitive in New Hampshire.

00:26:55.860 She already is super competitive in New Hampshire.

00:26:57.760 As you said earlier, Megan, the vying for second place to Trump, distant, distant second

00:27:02.700 place for Trump, but second place nonetheless, Nikki Haley is just about ready to overtake

00:27:07.900 DeSantis.

00:27:08.420 I know DeSantis is strong in Iowa.

00:27:11.040 It's still not as strong as Trump.

00:27:12.500 I know he thinks he's going to win Iowa.

00:27:13.860 I know he staked his candidacy on winning Iowa.

00:27:17.240 That's openly their strategy.

00:27:19.020 But winning Iowa is not enough.

00:27:21.680 That's Jeff Rowe.

00:27:22.860 His big consultant was picked for that role because he helped Ted Cruz win Iowa.

00:27:27.860 Well, I don't remember the Ted Cruz presidency, actually.

00:27:30.580 Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's been president yet.

00:27:33.600 So it doesn't.

00:27:34.260 That's not enough.

00:27:35.400 And so for Nikki Haley to come out there and put on a performance that I do think to

00:27:40.400 a lot of people on the right who have been so sick of the Nikki Haley's of the Republican

00:27:45.680 party for two decades, saw something different in Trump.

00:27:48.840 I don't think Nikki Haley is ever going to work.

00:27:51.060 But I do think for that average Republican voter who might be an educated suburban mom in

00:27:56.900 a swing state, Nikki Haley is going to play pretty well.

00:28:01.080 Again, I don't personally like her, but I do think that it's easy to lose sight in this

00:28:04.980 kind of realignment conversation of the fact that that sort of normal, educated suburban

00:28:10.020 woman sees what Nikki Haley said.

00:28:12.280 She had a very good answer, actually, shockingly good answer on abortion.

00:28:15.740 They see what she said in response to that question, and they say, I'm with her.

00:28:20.440 I think this is really, really interesting.

00:28:22.820 So for her to actually, I think, outshine Ron DeSantis, I think she looked confident, especially

00:28:29.880 for somebody who has been trailing in the race.

00:28:32.620 She looked confident.

00:28:33.680 Pence is gone.

00:28:34.480 Tim Scott always in these debates fades into the background despite his political prowess.

00:28:40.160 He's fading into the background.

00:28:42.100 Ron DeSantis was fine, but that is not good enough at this point.

00:28:45.420 So I think that's a big win for Nikki Haley.

00:28:48.720 The fights like DeSantis and Haley went back and forth, but the fights of the night that

00:28:54.040 were memorable, Moynihan, were Vivek and Nikki because it got personal.

00:28:58.620 They clearly don't like each other.

00:29:00.220 Remember, she said in the last debate, I get I get dumber every time I listen to you.

00:29:04.820 You know, she doesn't like him and he doesn't like her at the end of the night.

00:29:08.560 Actually, we have videotape of it.

00:29:09.640 They avoided each other.

00:29:10.540 Here's watch this video.

00:29:11.700 When the debate was over, NBC kept the cameras rolling because they were doing like a post

00:29:15.800 debate show.

00:29:16.920 Can we see VO one?

00:29:18.580 And he went right past her.

00:29:21.780 Look, Vivek walks right past her to shake Christie's hand, ignores her.

00:29:26.520 It happened again in front of the lecterns.

00:29:28.580 And in part, it was because of exchanges like this one where he took in.

00:29:33.220 He took a shot at her as sort of the new Dick Cheney as like neocon.

00:29:36.780 He's totally anti neocon.

00:29:38.180 Here it was in South five.

00:29:40.180 So what I would tell Bibi is that Israel has the right and the responsibility to defend itself.

00:29:46.740 I would tell him to smoke those terrorists on his southern border.

00:29:50.260 And then I'll tell him as president of the United States, I'll be smoking the terrorists

00:29:53.580 on our southern border.

00:29:54.840 Corrupt politicians in both parties spent trillions, killed millions, made billions for

00:30:00.060 themselves in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

00:30:02.740 You have the likes of Nikki Haley, who stepped down from her time at the U.N.

00:30:06.360 Bankrupt or in debt was her family.

00:30:08.620 Then she becomes a military contractor.

00:30:10.760 She joins the board of Boeing and otherwise and is now a multimillionaire.

00:30:14.380 So I think that that's wrong when Republicans do it or Democrats do it.

00:30:17.160 That's the choice we face.

00:30:18.760 Do you want a leader from a different generation who's going to put this country first?

00:30:22.520 Or do you want Dick Cheney in three inch heels?

00:30:26.400 All right.

00:30:26.580 Mr.

00:30:26.860 We've got two of them on stage.

00:30:30.480 OK, he added that bit at the end, in which case we've got two of them on stage tonight,

00:30:34.140 which clearly was a reference to DeSantis.

00:30:35.760 And even though we here at the Megan Kelly show have talked about whether DeSantis has

00:30:40.080 lifts in those boots, we are a podcast allowed to do stupid ass things on the presidential

00:30:46.240 debate stage.

00:30:47.240 That seemed lowbrow to me.

00:30:48.920 He's doing shtick.

00:30:50.620 Yeah.

00:30:50.800 But his answer was, I mean, his attack on her seemed substantive and a fair place to

00:30:56.060 go.

00:30:56.820 And then she responded with the following set six.

00:31:01.720 First, like to say they're five inch heels and I don't wear them unless you can run in

00:31:05.620 them.

00:31:08.380 We've got two of you on stage.

00:31:10.120 The second thing that I will say is I wear heels.

00:31:13.720 They're not for a fashion statement.

00:31:15.120 They're for ammunition.

00:31:17.520 She's going to start sending all of the heels to Zelensky.

00:31:20.860 What does that even mean?

00:31:22.940 I don't understand what she means.

00:31:25.100 I don't.

00:31:25.680 You have the entire time to think of a response.

00:31:27.880 And that's what she said.

00:31:28.600 They're a weapon.

00:31:29.580 If you said I could use them as a weapon.

00:31:31.440 OK, I've seen single white female.

00:31:33.680 Boom.

00:31:34.140 Into the eye.

00:31:34.680 I got it.

00:31:36.720 Ammunition.

00:31:37.360 I don't.

00:31:37.900 It doesn't make any sense.

00:31:39.740 It didn't make sense.

00:31:40.940 No, I mean, here was the big, here was the big, the big exchange between the two of them

00:31:45.220 where this will bring our scum reference together.

00:31:49.320 Can we show that back and forth?

00:31:50.640 I can't find the exact number.

00:31:51.920 The team knows where it is.

00:31:52.960 Go ahead.

00:31:55.180 Well, I want to laugh at why Nikki Haley didn't answer your question, which is about looking

00:31:58.820 at families in the eye.

00:32:00.000 In the last debate, she made fun of me for actually joining TikTok while her own daughter

00:32:04.280 was actually using the app for a long time.

00:32:06.460 So you might want to take care of your family first.

00:32:08.200 Leave my daughter out of your voice.

00:32:10.040 Before preaching to anybody who's your adult daughter.

00:32:11.180 The next generation of Americans are using it.

00:32:14.440 And that's actually the point.

00:32:16.060 You have her supporters crapping her up.

00:32:18.000 That's fine.

00:32:18.740 Here's the truth.

00:32:19.720 You're just scum.

00:32:20.420 That's an honest answer, by the way.

00:32:25.540 That's something not scripted.

00:32:27.480 Out of the side of her mouth, you're just scum.

00:32:31.420 Wasn't it totally a ripoff from Will Smith?

00:32:33.380 Take my wife's name out of your effing mouth.

00:32:36.880 Yeah, but she said voice, weirdly, much like heels or ammunition.

00:32:40.280 She's a bit mumbly up there.

00:32:41.480 It was a glitch.

00:32:42.420 Yeah, it was very, very odd.

00:32:44.980 But I think that the point that he was making is so monumentally stupid that to say that,

00:32:53.100 oh, should TikTok be banned?

00:32:55.020 Your daughter uses it.

00:32:56.660 It's like, well, I mean, your daughter can be attacked, like said after the debate,

00:33:00.680 because she's an adult.

00:33:02.020 It's like, yes, she can also decide whether or not to use TikTok and whether she thinks

00:33:05.880 it's Chinese spyware.

00:33:07.020 It seems to be a ludicrous debate to begin with and probably not something that is deserved

00:33:11.720 to be elevated to the debate stage.

00:33:13.580 But that said, the response to this is, you know, a chorus of boos.

00:33:20.800 People thought, I mean, it's not even, it used to be like, don't attack Sasha and Malia.

00:33:24.780 Don't attack Chelsea Clinton.

00:33:26.060 They're too young, et cetera.

00:33:27.620 It's not even about that.

00:33:28.740 It's like sins of the father, sins of the family.

00:33:31.100 Like, why is this even coming up?

00:33:33.040 And I thought it was just a really low, not even a low blow, it was a very stupid blow.

00:33:37.020 But the previous thing, I mean, Vivek has got all of these things.

00:33:40.100 He's just memorizing phrases and it just sounds so canned.

00:33:44.080 You know, it's so funny, Vivek has to attack his southern border.

00:33:47.800 Has he ever looked at a map of Israel?

00:33:50.480 Were they attacked by Egypt?

00:33:51.920 What is he talking about?

00:33:53.140 So we can do our southern border.

00:33:54.860 Oh, I see what you're doing.

00:33:56.260 You're trying to make that connection.

00:33:58.080 He's going to smoke them.

00:33:58.620 He's going to smoke them.

00:33:59.180 Yeah, and everyone, it's just like, good Lord, I can't stand watching this stuff.

00:34:05.600 And Megan, I just want you to know, I do this for you.

00:34:09.200 Otherwise, I wouldn't have watched it.

00:34:10.640 I watched The View for you, because every time I come on, there'll be a conversation about The View.

00:34:15.700 But this, watching this is like, you know what?

00:34:17.880 It was better than most debates.

00:34:19.740 But I just find this kind of desperate.

00:34:22.760 And, you know, you can tell that he's a TikTok guy, that it's of his generation, because it's all soundbites.

00:34:29.020 He's just trying to get TikTok soundbites.

00:34:30.220 But he wasn't the only one in his defense.

00:34:32.500 For sure, for sure, for sure.

00:34:34.040 Like, I'm sure you are.

00:34:35.860 And DeSantis says, you know, you shoot them.

00:34:37.760 Stone cold dead.

00:34:38.760 Stone cold dead at the border.

00:34:40.320 This guy's trying to be John Wayne up there.

00:34:41.800 All these little Harvard, Yale guys.

00:34:43.600 Like, he's gone.

00:34:45.280 Yeah, dogface pony soldier next.

00:34:47.740 No one's believing that.

00:34:48.980 But that's a good one.

00:34:50.380 Because it's a dogface pony soldier is so much better than anything they came up with.

00:34:56.320 And by the way, the more that we get Nikki, so the more the Republican Party insists on backing people like Nikki Haley and supporting the ideology of people like Nikki Haley, the more vivakes we're going to get.

00:35:09.380 And this is why it's not the politics we need, but it is the politics we deserve.

00:35:13.420 It's Nikki Haley coming back with the, my heels are ammo line from him calling her Dick Cheney in three-inch heels.

00:35:20.260 Like, this is exactly what we deserve.

00:35:21.580 It's so stupid.

00:35:23.120 They're both bad.

00:35:24.640 I will say one thing, though.

00:35:26.400 This is very bad timing for him.

00:35:27.920 He launched a website the other day that was like, sign the pledge not to be a neocon, which it was like getting in a time machine to 2008.

00:35:34.660 But it's an interesting moment to do it because it's a very bad moment to do it.

00:35:38.280 If you had said this at any other time, you know, after the attack in Israel, I'm talking to friends who are conservatives and Republicans.

00:35:44.760 And I was like, oh, my God, you guys are all sounding like Norman Podhurst.

00:35:48.660 You're all sounding like neocons right now.

00:35:51.120 This is kind of a neocon moment.

00:35:52.980 And it'll it'll die out.

00:35:54.720 But at this moment, when you're doing this neocon attack, it just seems kind of tone deaf to where a lot of Republicans are at the moment.

00:36:00.640 Because I got it.

00:36:01.920 I didn't ask you, Michael, what your favorite moment were like.

00:36:04.320 What was your best moment for anybody last night?

00:36:06.320 Who do you think won?

00:36:07.920 Well, I think that I mean, I know America lost.

00:36:11.840 That's all I know.

00:36:12.560 But I mean, someone maybe Ron DeSantis, I thought was fine.

00:36:16.720 You know, weirdly, I'll get crap from my listeners at the conference saying this.

00:36:21.380 I think that, you know, weirdly, Chris Christie sounds sensible when he's not performing.

00:36:25.280 He has moments of like, oh, I understand why he was a popular politician for a brief period of time in New Jersey.

00:36:32.120 So I think that, you know, overall, and I think Emily's right.

00:36:34.500 Tim Scott just kind of vanishes into the background very quickly and then tries to be bellicose about Iran and things to get himself back up front.

00:36:42.560 So overall, I think, you know, Haley and DeSantis, I think it's a sort of conventional opinion.

00:36:47.880 Both did well.

00:36:49.280 It doesn't matter at the end of the day because Donald Trump is going to be the nominee.

00:36:52.200 And I think the best moment of the night, totally shocking for me to say, because I have spewed nothing but hot contempt for Vivek Ramaswamy.

00:37:01.360 But he was very good on this one moment where people talked about the disgusting antics from anti-Semitic and, you know, anti-Israel students on campus.

00:37:13.240 When he said, look, we have been talking about this sort of issue from a different perspective for a very long time.

00:37:19.180 And the answer to this is not censorship.

00:37:21.740 I believe that is true.

00:37:23.820 And I believe it's very easy for people like us who have been talking about this stuff and talking about campus issues for a long time to lose sight of that.

00:37:30.780 And we cannot lose sight of that, that Palestinian solidarity groups, whatever they might be, should not be banned from campus for being stupid.

00:37:39.140 They should be debated and shown to be fools because they are fools and they're easy to debate.

00:37:44.640 Don't try to shut them down.

00:37:45.860 And I think that when Ramaswamy said that, it was actually an attack on DeSantis in a way.

00:37:50.300 I think that really resonated with me.

00:37:52.000 And I was like, I think that I was, I was impressed that he didn't take the easy path there.

00:37:56.940 So I thought Vivek landed that very well because he and I had a spat on Twitter about him initially saying, oh, I don't want these students to be outed who are in these groups.

00:38:08.000 Like, I don't, I didn't, he didn't agree with like Bill Ackman who was saying, I want to, I want the names of the people who signed these letters saying it's all Israel's fault as the babies were not even in their graves yet.

00:38:18.720 And I completely agree with Bill Ackman.

00:38:20.660 I want their names too.

00:38:21.420 Not only will I not hire them, I will encourage my friends not to hire them.

00:38:25.200 I want to know exactly who they are.

00:38:25.720 It's a public letter.

00:38:26.840 Yeah.

00:38:27.140 But what Ron DeSantis did is a different thing.

00:38:30.000 And that's where Vivek saw the inn and he was right to take it.

00:38:33.880 Ron DeSantis banned Students for Justice in Palestine from Florida state campuses saying it's basically Hamas.

00:38:40.120 They've said that we're at, we're one with Hamas.

00:38:42.620 And now you're in government, now you're in the government working to stop a message that is controversial, which is next level.

00:38:50.140 And he had a good in on it and DeSantis didn't back down, but it made for a juicy exchange.

00:38:57.720 Yeah.

00:38:57.860 And as he said, and rightly said that you, people always lose perspective and think that once you establish a precedent like this, that they're not going to do it to you.

00:39:08.260 Which is exactly what happens.

00:39:10.220 I remember the rise in sort of executive power under George Bush.

00:39:14.120 And I remember saying to a friend, like, you know, what do you think Obama's going to do his first day in office is going to be an even bigger executive.

00:39:20.380 And that's what happened.

00:39:21.020 You think we'll use it for the good of our cause.

00:39:24.120 But it's like you start those things going and it's a very slippery slope and other people will start doing it and they'll do it to conservative groups next.

00:39:30.220 And that's exactly why it's not useful to have NBC, Kristen Walker and Lester Hope moderating this debate, because I would have loved to have heard a conversation about that.

00:39:39.720 For example, some of DeSantis' – like DeSantis' has already – the Stop Woke Act has already been used to target Dave Ramsey books in Florida schools.

00:39:47.480 Like what Michael is saying is a very real concern.

00:39:50.980 Are you saying I should have been the debate moderator, Emily?

00:39:53.820 Because if you are, I think you're correct.

00:39:55.860 You're right.

00:39:56.200 You're scum, Michael.

00:39:56.780 I mean, it's also true.

00:39:58.860 These two things exist.

00:40:01.740 But that's like – I mean, how did they not have that conversation?

00:40:04.940 I don't know.

00:40:06.200 No, it was – and you're right, because somebody who was coming at this from the right, who immerses themselves in right-wing politics and culture issues and so on, would have known gold.

00:40:15.920 Let it go.

00:40:16.860 Like, foster.

00:40:17.620 Yes, this is exactly what the audience wants to hear more on.

00:40:20.440 No, we moved right on.

00:40:22.200 Frustrating.

00:40:23.300 Frustrating.

00:40:23.780 Hopefully, hopefully, you know, before the grace of God.

00:40:26.260 But hopefully, we'll do better.

00:40:27.780 I have every hope.

00:40:29.120 And especially Eliana.

00:40:30.100 It's so great to have the free beacon, because they're like way outside sort of the legacy press.

00:40:34.480 They're immersed in right-wing politics.

00:40:36.540 It's going to be super fun.

00:40:37.760 She's not going to come at any of these issues from a Kristen Welker perspective.

00:40:42.040 So anyway, it's all good.

00:40:43.420 Thank you both so much for being here.

00:40:45.280 Thank you, Megan.

00:40:46.780 Okay.

00:40:47.320 Much, much more ahead.

00:40:48.160 We've got Charles C.W. Cook.

00:40:49.140 We've got Michael Knowles.

00:40:50.180 We've got stuff to do.

00:40:51.100 Stand by.

00:40:51.520 I think you have to be honest with the American people.

00:40:55.540 This is a personal issue for every woman and every man.

00:40:58.900 Let's find consensus.

00:41:00.760 Let's agree on how we can ban late-term abortions.

00:41:04.180 Let's make sure we encourage adoptions and good quality adoptions.

00:41:07.680 Let's make sure we make contraception accessible.

00:41:10.720 Let's make sure that none of these state laws put a woman in jail or give her the death penalty for getting an abortion.

00:41:15.380 Let's focus on how to save as many babies as we can and support as many moms as we can and stop the judgment.

00:41:22.720 We don't need to divide America over this issue anymore.

00:41:25.500 Thank you, Ambassador.

00:41:26.800 Senator Scott.

00:41:31.280 Nikki Haley there on abortion.

00:41:33.680 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:41:34.880 My guest now is Charles C.W. Cook, senior writer at National Review and host of the Charles C.W. Cook podcast.

00:41:41.840 Charles, welcome back to the show.

00:41:43.300 I am told by the team that that you thought was the best moment of the debate.

00:41:49.380 Was it the best moment, her best moment?

00:41:51.780 Go on.

00:41:53.020 It was both.

00:41:53.840 It was the best moment of the debate and it was her best moment of the debate.

00:41:58.780 I don't think you could improve on that as an answer if you're running for president of the United States

00:42:06.780 and trying to convince people that you would be a good custodian of the whole country on this issue.

00:42:17.460 I'm not saying I necessarily agree with everything that she said.

00:42:21.200 My own view is that the federal government has no constitutional authority to regulate abortion in either direction.

00:42:27.820 But she, I think, did a whole bunch of things there that are really important for Republicans to do.

00:42:35.340 The first one she did was to acknowledge that people do feel really strongly on both sides of this issue.

00:42:41.680 Now, she is clear that she is a pro-lifer, as I am, but that doesn't mean you have to ignore the strength of the emotions it generates on the other side.

00:42:53.540 And at every point, she acknowledged that.

00:42:55.920 She then set the issue in its proper legal context, noting that it had been sent back to the states, that this is a good thing.

00:43:02.460 This shouldn't be decided by unelected judges.

00:43:04.440 And she noted the unlikelihood of there being a federal resolution and in a self-interested way, which is fine.

00:43:13.700 She's running for president.

00:43:14.900 She essentially said to the audience and to the broader country, don't look at me, see the words pro-life and make assumptions that are divisive.

00:43:25.940 Listen to what I'm actually saying.

00:43:27.000 I think it was remarkably effective, and I think it does show that she would be really strong as a candidate on this issue.

00:43:35.760 Mm-hmm.

00:43:36.200 In the general election, she looked pretty good in the wake of what happened to the Republicans on Tuesday night with this message, right?

00:43:43.180 Which is not as hard line as DeSantis and, you know, some of the others.

00:43:48.960 Tim Scott was up there saying, I hope you'll all join me in a 15-week ban.

00:43:51.800 Well, that just failed in Virginia with a very popular red state or Republican governor.

00:43:56.740 It's a blue state.

00:43:58.380 So, and the others are kind of looking at him.

00:43:59.980 Ron DeSantis is already backed a six-week ban.

00:44:03.460 She's tried to find this sort of more middle ground of, sure, I'd love to have this, but the country's not behind it.

00:44:08.400 And so let's be realistic.

00:44:09.740 Though she continues to say we shouldn't give the death penalty to women who got abortions.

00:44:15.580 I'm pretty sure that's a straw man.

00:44:17.180 I might have missed some weird law in some state.

00:44:20.280 I'm pretty sure we haven't been given the death penalty to women who have abortions.

00:44:23.520 No, it is a straw man.

00:44:25.820 But, you know, I actually think that it's quite a clever straw man in that she's also contending with a lot of straw men.

00:44:31.880 If you ever debated abortion or discussed abortion, as I'm sure you have, people bring a lot of straw men to the table.

00:44:39.140 Republicans are going to have an issue with this.

00:44:40.720 And I think just laying that out there preemptively and saying, of course, that's not the sort of thing that I'm interested in is actually important.

00:44:50.640 Because, you know, it's politics.

00:44:51.940 Whenever you get involved in politics, especially on an issue such as this one, people make all sorts of claims that aren't true.

00:44:59.180 It was interesting because Vivek went on about, when he was asked the abortion question, about paternity tests.

00:45:03.480 We need more paternity testing.

00:45:04.860 And again, I was like, how does that affect an abortion, like a woman deciding whether to have an abortion?

00:45:13.900 Is it like, well, I got to figure out whether it belongs to this guy or that guy?

00:45:17.720 I mean, I suppose in like extramarital, I mean, we're now down to a very, very sliver, a fine sliver of the abortion issue.

00:45:24.420 I wasn't sure what that was.

00:45:25.700 But again, it kind of struck me as yet another pander, like he's leaning into sort of the toxically masculine group of, I don't know, perceived Republican voters who were like, that's not my kid.

00:45:37.740 I don't know.

00:45:38.560 Not sure what he was doing there.

00:45:40.620 Not sure it's the answer to abortion policy, but that's not for me to decide.

00:45:44.960 All right.

00:45:45.120 So who did you think was the big winner?

00:45:47.800 Well, I think probably Nikki Haley followed closely by Ron DeSantis.

00:45:51.820 Those two stand out.

00:45:53.020 They are the two competitors.

00:45:55.980 I don't know how much of Trump's lead is real.

00:45:58.760 I suspect a lot of it is.

00:46:00.160 But if it's not, if we're talking here about people not being focused yet and high name recognition and maybe Trump being the first choice, but people are willing to look elsewhere, then I suspect that those people will go to either Nikki Haley or Ron DeSantis because they have the command of the issues.

00:46:19.160 They speak forthrightly.

00:46:20.520 I think it shows that they were both governors.

00:46:23.160 There's something about governors.

00:46:24.120 We've forgotten this as a country, but we used to really like governors in America because it is the equivalent of the president at the state level.

00:46:33.100 So those two, while Nikki Haley probably slightly edged out DeSantis, I didn't think anyone else needed to be there, frankly.

00:46:40.140 You know, my views on Vivek.

00:46:42.400 I think Vivek is an absolute disaster.

00:46:46.660 And then Tim Scott fades into the background, which is the last thing you want to do when you're president.

00:46:50.920 And Chris Christie is just irredeemably out of kilter with where the Republican Party is at the moment.

00:46:56.300 It is not going to happen.

00:46:57.640 And isn't his spicy self.

00:47:01.160 It's like he is, you know, we're looking at the numbers of how you're going to make the next presidential debate, you know, the one in on December 6th.

00:47:07.980 And it's only getting tougher.

00:47:09.500 Like the requirements are only getting higher.

00:47:11.580 Chris Christie needs a viral moment.

00:47:13.620 He needed to get out there and come out swinging last night so that he could drive up his numbers if he want to make if he wants to make the dance.

00:47:19.880 It didn't happen now of all times to choose the I'm the sober, reserved, judicious one.

00:47:26.920 I just I didn't get the strategy.

00:47:28.800 I will say I thought Ron DeSantis, he's had the same approach in every debate, like I'm likable, Madam Suburbia.

00:47:36.220 I'm likable and I'm trustworthy and I'm I've got sound policies.

00:47:40.540 But he never really has a viral moment.

00:47:45.020 He, too, like Vivek, can sound rehearsed.

00:47:48.740 You know, we've heard the stone cold dead thing a few times and we've heard the bit on Trump.

00:47:54.900 He should be here.

00:47:56.060 And it's like he'd be he needs to do some off the cuff arguing in order for people to really connect.

00:48:02.880 So I don't know.

00:48:03.820 Did you think DeSantis made any headway with with voters who were not going to vote with him for him before?

00:48:10.540 Well, I think DeSantis has much more space to grow into than Christie, even at this later stage.

00:48:17.580 You said that Christie hasn't had that sort of vibe that he used to have.

00:48:22.840 I think the reason for that is that Christie's not suited to the moment.

00:48:25.980 You hear that phrase, come at the hour, come at the moment.

00:48:28.560 Christie was perfectly suited for what he did back in the 2010s, which was turn around a blue state, take on teachers unions, kick some ass.

00:48:38.520 That's what he's good at. He's just so far out of kilter with the Republicans at the moment.

00:48:42.180 He's never going to do that.

00:48:44.120 Now, DeSantis actually is quite close.

00:48:45.560 Hold that thought on DeSantis because I teed it up and then I have to take a break.

00:48:49.160 But I definitely want to hear what you think about DeSantis because I know you really like him.

00:48:53.540 But did he do anything to change the game?

00:48:55.260 That's the question.

00:48:55.860 We'll pick that up when we come right back with Charles C.W. Cook.

00:48:59.520 Don't go away.

00:49:01.680 I would be telling B.B., finish the job once and for all with these butchers, Hamas.

00:49:08.240 They're terrorists.

00:49:10.340 They're massacring innocent people.

00:49:12.460 They would wipe every Jew off the globe if they could.

00:49:16.000 He cannot live with that threat right by his country.

00:49:20.280 Welcome back to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:49:21.960 My guest is Charles C.W. Cook, senior writer at National Review and host of the Charles C.W. Cook podcast.

00:49:28.600 So that was a strong answer from Ron DeSantis.

00:49:31.340 And I have to say they all gave strong answers on Israel.

00:49:35.060 Listening to them up there, I was thinking, my God, you know, I am sympathetic toward Israel and it's what's happened to it.

00:49:42.280 But I think anybody, Democrat or Republican, watching those guys would say, yes, I would vote for any of them.

00:49:50.360 Even Vivek, who's less hawkish, but was saying the right things.

00:49:54.240 But I agree with you overall.

00:49:55.200 It was a pretty familiar performance from Republicans on a stage.

00:50:03.660 My colleague Noah Rothman in National Review said, that's the Republican Party I recognize.

00:50:09.620 Noah and John Podoretz were like, single tier.

00:50:13.160 Oh, the New York Times.

00:50:14.360 I love that.

00:50:15.200 They open it.

00:50:15.740 They own it.

00:50:16.400 But they were like, yes, this is the Republican Party we could have had had it not been for Trump.

00:50:20.320 Well, you know, I would push back a little bit on that, Megan.

00:50:23.860 I am less of a hawk than Noah is, certainly.

00:50:26.620 But I think the vast majority of Americans are behind Israel.

00:50:31.860 If you look at polling, I think I read 28 percent of Democrats, not just Americans, but just Democrats, think that Joe Biden has given too much support to Israel.

00:50:42.900 The rest think it's either been exactly the right amount or not enough.

00:50:48.000 When you broaden that out to all Americans, I think the too much number drops to 20 percent.

00:50:54.600 And so we do sometimes get a false impression of this in the media.

00:50:57.900 And we listen to elite institutions, academia, corporate America and the Democratic Party.

00:51:03.840 And we think that there is this raging conversation in the United States about whether or not Israel should go in hard against Hamas or whether or not Hamas is to blame for everything that's followed, whether or not Israel or Hamas is in the right.

00:51:18.840 But there really isn't.

00:51:19.680 And I think what you saw yesterday was a reflection of that within the Republican Party that actually belies some of the claims that have been made about this supposed shift in what the GOP stands for.

00:51:33.360 As you know, as I probably said on this show before, I don't think the basic political precepts undergirding the GOP have changed very much.

00:51:43.400 I don't see it.

00:51:44.220 If you look at the way that Donald Trump behaved when he was in office, if you look at the accomplishments that he's now selling to the public, if you look at the way big Republican states like Florida and Texas operate, if you look at where Republican voters say that they are, there are a few shifts.

00:52:02.500 Some of those are contingent on change circumstances.

00:52:05.120 Some are genuine ideological moves.

00:52:07.020 But there aren't many.

00:52:07.880 And what we saw last night on the stage, really across the board with a little weakness from Vivek, was a reflection of the fact that the Republican Party is still a party that thinks America is a force for good in the world, that believes in order, and that sides with Israel, which is a free democracy, and not with, and I'm not saying Palestinians, but not with Hamas.

00:52:28.780 And I think that was encouraging and should serve as a reminder.

00:52:33.700 But then when you broaden it out, it gets more complicated, right?

00:52:38.640 So, Nikki was much more hawkish on Ukraine.

00:52:42.900 So was Chris Christie.

00:52:44.420 Ron DeSantis, he's been kind of, forgive me about a little mealy-mouthed on Ukraine.

00:52:50.480 He's kind of been trying to flirt with the Vivek-Trump line of like, it's kind of somebody else's problem.

00:52:57.400 Um, and Vivek just owns that openly.

00:53:00.660 And then, so they're less hawkish, you know, part of the party on Ukraine.

00:53:05.360 But they had an interesting discussion last night on Iran, where those fault lines expose themselves, too.

00:53:11.100 And I follow Ann Coulter and her substack.

00:53:14.120 She's always interesting and provocative.

00:53:15.720 And she was like, three out of the five candidates up there want to bomb everybody.

00:53:20.160 They want to bomb Iran, and they want to bomb Syria.

00:53:23.340 They, you know, like, there's going to be a lot of bombing going on if the more hawkish three get their hands anywhere near power.

00:53:31.280 I think she was accepting DeSantis and Vivek from all of that.

00:53:35.160 So what did you make of the discussion on Iran and just how far the U.S. is willing to go when it comes to fighting on behalf of Israel or supporting Israel?

00:53:42.700 Well, it was the distinction that you draw.

00:53:46.860 But I would remind everyone that this is often how politicians talk during debates.

00:53:52.480 If you go back to 2016, it was always interesting to watch Trump because he would simultaneously criticize who he regarded on the stage as being warmongers or neocons or whatever other epithets you want to throw at them.

00:54:07.620 He would say that they were responsible for the disaster in Iraq or they would overextend America or they'd want to bomb Iran or what you will.

00:54:15.660 But then he himself would sound incredibly belligerent.

00:54:19.140 He would talk about, you know, the rubble bouncing and destroying people, which partly was an attempt to show that he would be a hard man as president without necessarily getting into wars.

00:54:32.180 But partly it's what the audience wanted to hear.

00:54:33.800 So there is a policy difference, as you outline, on Ukraine.

00:54:38.260 That one is clear.

00:54:40.380 There was a policy difference to some extent on Iran.

00:54:44.200 But presidential candidates in the Republican Party do talk like that.

00:54:49.740 They want to seem resolute.

00:54:51.620 They probably talk like that at the moment more than ever because they're trying to break through and distinguish themselves from or at least put themselves on the same pedestal as Donald Trump.

00:55:03.300 So I think I think that explains some of it.

00:55:06.160 I'm not totally convinced that there is a plan, you know, Nikki Haley's heart to to go and bomb Iran.

00:55:13.280 I think she's just trying to seem resolute.

00:55:16.000 Well, Iran came up because they've been they've been bombing.

00:55:19.940 They've been sending, you know, various munitions over at U.S.

00:55:24.440 facilities overseas.

00:55:25.400 And some 40 U.S.

00:55:27.920 service personnel have been hurt, though no one killed.

00:55:30.420 But they're talking about some traumatic brain injuries to our troops.

00:55:33.720 And more and more of the question is coming up.

00:55:35.820 What are we going to do?

00:55:36.880 I mean, we're the United States of America.

00:55:38.680 You don't hurt U.S.

00:55:39.520 troops, especially if you're Iran and get away with it.

00:55:43.260 And so that's why, you know, they were asking, what would you do?

00:55:46.880 What will you do?

00:55:49.220 DeSantis had a strong answer on it.

00:55:51.600 Here's how he sounded on that last night and sought seven.

00:55:55.180 I would say you you harm a hair on the head of an American service member and you are going

00:56:01.460 to have hell to pay.

00:56:03.020 We are not just going to sit there and let our service members be sitting ducks.

00:56:08.640 OK, but I have to say this goes back to the point I was making early in the show, Charles,

00:56:12.880 which is all these guys like the vague.

00:56:15.380 I'm going to smoke them at the southern border.

00:56:17.540 And Ron DeSantis, like you're going to be stone cold dead.

00:56:20.880 They're all trying to have a little John Wayne moment.

00:56:23.600 They want us to believe they're this guy.

00:56:25.260 Watch.

00:56:25.680 They want us to believe they're John Wayne.

00:56:28.740 You and your brother stand clear.

00:56:32.400 I got no interest in you today.

00:56:34.900 Stand clear and you won't get hurt.

00:56:38.480 And you son of a bitch.

00:56:40.120 I'm sorry, but they're not.

00:56:51.380 And no one's buying it.

00:56:53.480 Like, it's great to be like, you harm a hair on their head and a little lady.

00:56:58.780 But like, realistically, what they're trying to get at is what are you going to do to Iran

00:57:05.140 because no one wants World War Three with them?

00:57:07.900 Sure.

00:57:08.080 But what is your objection there?

00:57:09.320 Because I think it was about a week ago that Donald Trump said if they spill a drop of our

00:57:14.700 soldiers blood, we spill a gallon of theirs, which is a John Wayne style thing to say.

00:57:19.200 I mean, it's a great movie.

00:57:19.880 I watched that a couple of weeks ago.

00:57:21.600 Like, Trump can say what he wants because when in office, he did drop a bomb on Soleimani.

00:57:27.740 And it was, it definitely was deterrence live in action.

00:57:31.800 Right.

00:57:31.960 But do you doubt, for example, that Nikki Haley or Ron DeSantis, or Chris Christie, for that

00:57:36.880 matter, would have killed Soleimani?

00:57:39.520 Yes, I do.

00:57:40.760 You do?

00:57:41.400 See, I don't.

00:57:42.140 I think that one of the reasons that they talk like that is because that's how Republican

00:57:46.280 presidential candidates tend to talk.

00:57:48.480 If you go back to the 1980 election, the stuff that Ronald Reagan used to say about the Soviet

00:57:52.980 Union actually scared some voters because they thought he might start a hot war with

00:57:56.360 the Soviet Union, but really did distinguish him from Jimmy Carter and was cowboyish in

00:58:03.220 nature.

00:58:04.040 I just see this as part of the dance that Republicans go through when they're trying to convince

00:58:08.580 the public that they are capable of being the commander in chief.

00:58:11.720 Do you really believe that Ron DeSantis is going to start shooting people coming across

00:58:18.140 the southern border, stone cold, dead?

00:58:21.200 I mean, no.

00:58:22.000 OK.

00:58:22.520 Do you think?

00:58:23.080 No, I think that's a separate question.

00:58:24.420 Ramaswamy is going to smoke him.

00:58:25.600 He's going to smoke the people at the southern border.

00:58:27.260 No, but I think that if Trump, who ran as the relatively dovish candidate, both in the

00:58:34.940 Republican primary and in the general election against Hillary, ended up lobbing bombs into

00:58:40.500 Libya, Syria, and then killing Soleimani and issuing all sorts of semi-amusing threats,

00:58:49.660 I really don't think it will be beyond the ken of a Ron DeSantis or a Nikki Haley to project

00:58:59.680 strength, which is a separate question from starting wars.

00:59:02.320 The reason I said that, and I get that they're hawkish and that they're strong, Republicans

00:59:05.020 in general and national security are strong, but the reason I doubt it is because it was

00:59:09.860 a bold move to take him out, and it was criticized by the right and the left at the time, and people

00:59:14.020 really thought that Iran was going to respond in a way that was going to get us in a lot of

00:59:17.620 trouble that Republicans and Democrats wanted to avoid, and Trump has since only recently told

00:59:22.880 a story about how even Netanyahu was like, I'm not in on this.

00:59:25.740 I'll help you with some intel, but when push came to shove, he didn't help us actually take

00:59:29.600 him out, and Bibi Netanyahu is as hawkish as they come, so I do have my doubts about whether

00:59:35.060 somebody as less erratic than Donald Trump would have actually given the okay on that, and that's

00:59:42.000 a compliment to Trump because he did have this unsteadying and does force about him, which

00:59:47.260 can be used for evil or for good, and in that case, it was 100% for good, not for nothing,

00:59:51.860 but Trump was talking recently about a couple of things.

00:59:55.880 I'll only play the one soundbite, but he talked about that moment where they bombed Soleimani,

01:00:00.660 tried to claim that the prime minister of Pakistan told him he had to go into his home for a week

01:00:06.480 and couldn't come out because he just had to reevaluate his life's choices.

01:00:09.200 So bold was Trump and his inspo, and then all the fact checkers came out and said, actually,

01:00:14.040 he was seen like the next day and the day after that and the day after that, and none

01:00:18.240 of that, I don't, whatever, but he did talk about how Iran did something similar to what

01:00:24.140 they're doing now after we took out Soleimani, like saber rattling, and revealed, I think

01:00:31.440 for the first time, that they had given us the heads up they were going to do it.

01:00:35.600 We have the soundbite, it's interesting, SOT-29.

01:00:40.020 When Iran shot down a drone, a metal drone, it was 14 years old, not very valuable, flying

01:00:50.460 very near Iran, but we had to hit them.

01:00:53.900 So we hit them quite hard.

01:00:56.180 We knocked out their radar and different things.

01:00:58.460 They told us that, don't be concerned, we're going to launch 18 missiles at your military

01:01:08.740 base, but none of them will hit the base.

01:01:13.020 Five of them blew up in the air, didn't make it, and the others hit outside the base area.

01:01:21.360 So they told me that they were going to hit us, but they were just, they just had to do

01:01:25.680 it.

01:01:26.480 Now, I never told that story before, but you know what that story is about?

01:01:30.080 Respect for our nation.

01:01:33.940 What do you make of it?

01:01:34.980 It's interesting to hear a former president giving details like that out from the stump,

01:01:38.900 number one, but respect for the nation and the deterrent effect of having a strong commander

01:01:44.560 in chief is a fair point to be raising right now.

01:01:49.280 Yeah, I mean, I think it highlights once again, though, that Trump is sort of incoherent on this

01:01:53.340 because he wants to be the anti-war guy, but also he wants to be the strongest guy.

01:01:57.420 And I think the foreign policy of the Trump administration was pretty good.

01:02:00.340 Don't get me wrong.

01:02:01.200 But I also think some of the categorizations you hear are odd.

01:02:05.300 Some of the words we use.

01:02:06.740 What do I make of that?

01:02:08.780 I do think there is something to the idea that if you have a crazy president, people are worried

01:02:15.180 about what they're going to do and behave accordingly.

01:02:18.980 I think you can overstate that case, but I think some of that is true.

01:02:24.240 I think it's probably not an accident that we have seen much more turmoil in the world

01:02:30.480 under Joe Biden than we have under Trump because Trump was just so unpredictable and alarmed people.

01:02:38.360 I wish he hadn't told that story.

01:02:40.580 I don't think that's the role of presidents to reveal that sort of information.

01:02:45.560 It doesn't make the current guy's job any easier.

01:02:47.980 Yeah.

01:02:48.980 Yeah, it was kind of jarring.

01:02:50.400 Like, I'm not sure we should be knowing this, but.

01:02:52.840 No.

01:02:53.380 Well, he hasn't exactly been jealous of national security information.

01:03:00.180 As it turns out, that's not been an issue for him.

01:03:03.580 While we're on foreign policy, let's stay with Ukraine because Vivek came out with this

01:03:08.000 sort of string.

01:03:08.680 He's very, very hardcore anti-Ukraine.

01:03:12.320 Doesn't seem much like the government there, the way it's set up, and really doesn't want

01:03:17.080 us to be helping in any way, shape or form.

01:03:19.240 And so he went out and sort of ticked off a bunch of reasons why he doesn't want to help

01:03:24.220 them anymore.

01:03:24.840 And in it, he appears to have, though he's now denying that he did, called Zelensky a

01:03:32.440 Nazi, Zelensky is Jewish and not a Nazi.

01:03:36.100 And Vivek's trying to undo this now, but it's an interesting moment and he's catching some

01:03:40.980 flack for it.

01:03:41.580 Here's the soundbite.

01:03:42.200 I'm actually enjoying watching the Ukraine hawks quietly, delicately tiptoe back from

01:03:48.460 their position as this thing has unwound into a disaster.

01:03:52.020 The first half of this race, I was the only person standing for it.

01:03:54.380 Now they're actually quietly coming around to being more cautious as they should.

01:03:58.120 Ukraine is not a paragon of democracy.

01:04:00.800 This is a country that has banned 11 opposition parties.

01:04:03.500 It has consolidated all media into one state TV media arm.

01:04:07.860 That's not democratic.

01:04:08.680 It has threatened not to hold elections this year.

01:04:11.120 It has celebrated a Nazi in its ranks, the comedian in cargo pants, a man called Zelensky

01:04:14.880 doing it in their own ranks.

01:04:16.460 Those are the hard facts.

01:04:18.260 And so to frame this as some kind of battle between good versus evil, don't buy it.

01:04:22.800 I am telling you, Putin and President Xi are salivating at the thought that someone

01:04:27.880 like that could become president.

01:04:29.500 They would love to.

01:04:32.600 Okay, so now, because a lot of people were like, okay, Zelensky's a Nazi.

01:04:38.680 So no, you can have legitimate criticisms of Ukraine and where's our money going and are

01:04:43.600 they corrupt and all that.

01:04:44.560 But Zelensky's not a Nazi.

01:04:46.880 So now he's trying to say he wasn't referring to Zelensky, even though he said a comedian

01:04:50.880 in cargo pants, Zelensky.

01:04:52.640 Zelensky was a, he is a former comedian.

01:04:54.640 He does wear cargo pants all the time.

01:04:56.460 He's trying to say he was referring to what happened in the Canadian parliament where Zelensky

01:05:01.600 did happen to be present and some Canadian lawmaker chose to honor this guy after he

01:05:07.540 was like 98 years old and they tried to give him, they did honor him.

01:05:10.680 Zelensky had nothing to do with it.

01:05:12.000 He was just there.

01:05:12.820 Turned out the guy was a Nazi who actually served under Hitler.

01:05:15.440 That Canadian politician resigned.

01:05:17.960 He was embarrassed.

01:05:19.360 They took back the honor.

01:05:20.360 It wasn't a Zelensky thing, but now he's trying to say that somehow blame that on Ukraine in

01:05:27.220 his explanation for why he said what he said.

01:05:31.260 I'm not sure what's happening here.

01:05:32.900 What do you think is happening here?

01:05:35.120 Look, we've all misspoken.

01:05:37.160 So I'll say this with some humility, but I've read the transcript of that moment and I've

01:05:43.200 listened to him say it out loud five or six times now and I just can't see it.

01:05:50.360 The way that it immediately follows his use of the word Nazi, the description of Zelensky,

01:05:56.380 both in print and the inflection in his voice, seems to me as if he's suggesting that Zelensky

01:06:04.560 is a Nazi, which it's worth saying is what Vladimir Putin says.

01:06:08.660 That's his excuse.

01:06:11.040 Either way, that is rendered in service of what is ultimately a straw man.

01:06:17.880 I don't think that it matters enormously whether or not Ukraine is a wonderful place.

01:06:27.180 This is one of the criticisms that I've had, in fact, of those on the left who have turned

01:06:31.880 Ukraine into paradise.

01:06:33.440 I think progressives really can't help but do this.

01:06:36.700 They put the flag outside of their house and they have to believe that it's the best place

01:06:41.000 in the world.

01:06:41.480 You're actually seeing some of that weirdness at the moment with Gaza.

01:06:44.440 So the reason that the United States should not with a blank check, but should support

01:06:52.060 Ukraine, even if just morally, is that Ukraine was invaded.

01:06:57.020 That's it.

01:06:57.980 Ukraine was a sovereign state that was invaded by its neighbor in a war of conquest.

01:07:03.480 For some reason, Vivek Ramaswamy seems to think that this is a matter of good and evil, that

01:07:10.520 if you can criticize Ukraine, which we should in many ways, then that argument falls apart.

01:07:17.180 And I don't think it does.

01:07:18.540 And I just wonder if he got a little bit over exuberant.

01:07:23.320 One of the criticisms of him that I think has the most merit is he's just too online.

01:07:26.880 You know, at one point he said to the moderators, oh, well, this should be moderated by Tucker

01:07:32.060 Carlson and Joe Rogan.

01:07:34.600 OK, but that's the sort of thing you and Elon Musk.

01:07:38.200 Look, that's fine.

01:07:39.000 But that's the sort of thing that you actually don't hear from normal American voters.

01:07:43.060 I've never I take my kids to baseball practice.

01:07:45.760 People do talk politics sometimes.

01:07:47.460 I have never heard anyone say anything of the sort.

01:07:49.760 They're all concerned with the price of food.

01:07:51.560 They're concerned with the price of gas.

01:07:53.000 They're concerned with this international situation.

01:07:54.840 He's very online.

01:07:56.460 And I wonder whether he got over exuberant in his criticisms of Ukraine and he ranged

01:08:01.520 beyond the reasonable point, which is that it's not, you know, it's not some 19th century

01:08:07.580 New England democracy.

01:08:08.740 He ranged into this this underworld idea that is actually the successor to Nazi Germany.

01:08:14.760 And now he's trying to walk it back.

01:08:17.600 By the way, is your son still batting a thousand?

01:08:20.900 Yes, he actually finished the season batting a thousand.

01:08:23.640 His team went out in the playoffs, but he finished he finished the season batting a thousand.

01:08:27.700 It's crazy.

01:08:30.120 Charles got a prodigy at home in the arena.

01:08:33.280 And he's just a little guy.

01:08:35.540 So let's zoom out.

01:08:38.460 Did anything change as a result of last night?

01:08:40.560 We went into it with Haley on an upward trajectory in the polls.

01:08:44.480 Ron DeSantis had stuttered.

01:08:46.760 Tim Scott, I predict, is going to be out of this thing within the next two weeks, certainly

01:08:51.520 before the next debate.

01:08:52.440 Chris Christie, if he doesn't make the next debate, he's effectively done.

01:08:56.240 I mean, it's over.

01:08:58.540 So we're left with Ramaswamy, Haley, DeSantis.

01:09:03.740 And Vivek, too, has polls that have stalled out.

01:09:06.840 So maybe effectively only DeSantis and Haley.

01:09:09.240 But all of that ignores the fact that they're almost 50 points behind the Republican frontrunner,

01:09:17.300 Donald Trump, who might be faring poorly in these debates if he were to show up, you know,

01:09:23.660 who doesn't have the fastball that he had back in 16, something DeSantis has been pointing

01:09:27.640 out.

01:09:27.860 But we're never going to know because you could argue wisely he's chosen not to subject himself

01:09:32.500 to that and the voters are not penalizing him for it.

01:09:34.520 Has anything changed?

01:09:39.360 So I'm going to give you a no and a yes, if I may, because I live in this weird Schrodinger's

01:09:43.520 world with this primary season where I'm never quite sure what's going on.

01:09:46.860 And I sometimes think two things are going on at once.

01:09:48.700 So no, in the sense that nobody has broken out.

01:09:52.740 It's difficult to do without Trump on the stage or there.

01:09:56.000 But nobody has had such a moment that the whole country has jumped out of bed in the morning

01:10:01.680 and said, my goodness me, did you see what X or Y said last night in the debate?

01:10:06.940 So in that sense, no, the inertia helps Donald Trump.

01:10:10.480 He has this big polling advantage.

01:10:12.040 It doesn't seem to be moving anywhere, although people at the bottom of the polling list have

01:10:17.100 shuffled around a little bit.

01:10:18.340 Trump has stayed constant at the top.

01:10:20.420 That's the no.

01:10:20.940 The yes is that both Haley and DeSantis have now fairly routinely, both in debates and

01:10:30.420 in campaign events and other circumstances, kept themselves in it.

01:10:38.260 And if Trump does turn out this time to be a paper tiger, or if it does turn out that people

01:10:44.560 weren't paying attention, or if it does turn out that the voters in Iowa and New Hampshire

01:10:49.060 and South Carolina and elsewhere are actually far more open to alternatives than it looks

01:10:53.980 as if they are at the moment, that's going to matter enormously.

01:10:58.520 But in one sense, what we've seen is this mattering in terms of attrition.

01:11:02.520 It matters because it is now, I think, fundamentally obvious that Tim Scott's just not going to make

01:11:07.800 it.

01:11:07.980 He's not going to be there.

01:11:09.460 He's not going to be attractive to voters if Donald Trump stumbles or turns out to be

01:11:15.520 Potemkin.

01:11:16.640 I think Chris Christie never was.

01:11:18.700 And Vivek has just revealed himself to be a troll.

01:11:23.080 But DeSantis is viable.

01:11:25.680 And Nikki Haley is viable.

01:11:28.520 I do have some questions about her appeal across the board, although I think she'd be a really

01:11:33.920 strong general election candidate.

01:11:35.800 So I think the answer is no, in that nothing's changed.

01:11:38.580 But it really depends on your theory of the race.

01:11:40.800 If you think, I'm sort of 30% thinking this, 70% not.

01:11:45.480 If you think that maybe something has to give and that this will ultimately come down to

01:11:51.000 a dogfight between two people, then yeah, DeSantis and Haley have done what they need to

01:11:55.200 do.

01:11:55.400 And it's more impressive from Haley because everyone thought six months ago that DeSantis

01:12:00.220 was going to be the one standing with Trump at the end or challenging Trump.

01:12:03.240 Nikki Haley was at the edges.

01:12:04.580 And yet she's now put herself in a position where she could well be engaged in a real fight

01:12:11.980 if the circumstances change, which I should say, I don't think they're necessarily going

01:12:15.600 to.

01:12:16.260 Well, the interesting thing about them changing is today there was news out of Minnesota that

01:12:20.340 one of those challenges to keep Trump off the ballot because he's an alleged insurrectionist

01:12:25.080 got decided in Trump's favor.

01:12:27.880 But the judge didn't decide it by interpreting the U.S. Constitution.

01:12:32.300 The judge went off of some Michigan law.

01:12:34.600 And therefore, as I understand it, the big challenge under the U.S. Constitution is preserved

01:12:40.220 and could still be raised.

01:12:41.740 There's a trial underway right now in Colorado where they're examining this issue.

01:12:45.300 Can he be kicked off the ballot because he allegedly engaged in an insurrection?

01:12:49.820 I don't believe that this applies, but I'm not a judge.

01:12:53.440 And this is like a very, very long shot.

01:12:57.260 But there are those challenges in a few states.

01:12:59.820 And what if what if they went against Trump?

01:13:03.100 What if we had a ruling in three of the six swing states that Donald Trump cannot be on

01:13:10.000 the ballot?

01:13:10.420 I mean, at that point, Republicans really will have to say to themselves, my God, we're going

01:13:19.160 to lose if we stick with him.

01:13:21.740 There are ways in which what we're watching now could become really important really fast.

01:13:29.180 And Nikki and Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis may be vying for that top non-Trump spot.

01:13:33.860 I think Vivek is vying for the top almost Trump spot so where he can say, I know 45 percent

01:13:43.120 of the party finds me obnoxious and unlikable, but some 35 percent that loves Trump loves me

01:13:50.040 and I can get the remainder.

01:13:52.020 I can do it.

01:13:53.120 So I see his role and I see why he's still in it and I see why he's still a valuable candidate

01:13:57.900 up there offering different POVs from the MAGA angle on all these issues.

01:14:04.020 In any event, it's a long shot.

01:14:06.620 I haven't even talked about Trump's criminal trials and all that, but I'm talking about

01:14:09.560 something that could soon lead voters to say he can't be on the ticket.

01:14:14.540 We'll see.

01:14:15.760 We'll see, Charles.

01:14:18.680 Well, and I'm bothered by this as an American citizen who really cares about policy and the

01:14:25.340 future and the prospects for my five-year-old batting 1,000.

01:14:30.360 This is not a game.

01:14:34.100 And we're not in 1996 where things are looking up and most Americans say they don't really

01:14:42.480 care who wins and only 48 percent of them turn out to vote.

01:14:46.760 I mean, we really are in trouble.

01:14:48.680 I'm optimistic, as you know.

01:14:50.320 I tend to be the sunny, optimistic guy and I am still in the long run.

01:14:54.080 But this isn't a good moment.

01:14:56.200 I'm not going to indulge in all of that doom-mongering and say this is the last election.

01:15:00.840 This is the only election that matters.

01:15:02.300 It's not true.

01:15:03.480 But this election really does matter.

01:15:05.240 I mean, we still have bad inflation.

01:15:07.240 Prices are high.

01:15:08.200 They're not coming down.

01:15:08.980 We have highest interest rates we've had for a long, long time, 40 years.

01:15:12.640 Difficult to buy a house for most people.

01:15:15.400 We've got the world on fire.

01:15:17.520 We have this horrible progressive ideology that is striking at the founding precepts that

01:15:23.040 have made this country what it is.

01:15:25.360 We're spending more money on the debt than we spend on the defense budget, or at least

01:15:30.460 we will be in a couple of months.

01:15:33.380 We have no plan to fix entitlements.

01:15:35.400 We have no plan to fix our deficits.

01:15:38.300 And we have crime on the up, and we have an open southern border.

01:15:43.560 And I just, I am surprised, I have to say, that there seems to be less concern in the

01:15:50.760 Republican primary electorate about picking Donald Trump for the reasons that you just

01:15:55.420 outlined.

01:15:56.020 Partly because of the 91 indictments, some civil, some criminal, that he's currently fighting.

01:16:02.880 And partly because it seems possible that he's going to be kicked off the ballot in enough

01:16:07.940 states to make him unable to win the Electoral College.

01:16:11.980 That would worry me, even if I were a Donald Trump guy, which I'm very much not.

01:16:16.740 Just as a generic Republican problem, that seems absolutely enormous to me, given the scale

01:16:24.980 of the challenge that the United States faces here, which, again, is great compared to where

01:16:31.080 it has been in a whole bunch of elections of the past.

01:16:35.820 Yeah, it's not exactly 1968, but it's not great.

01:16:39.540 You're right.

01:16:39.960 It's not 96 either.

01:16:41.660 Charles, always a pleasure.

01:16:42.600 Thank you so much for being here.

01:16:44.720 Thanks for having me.

01:16:46.240 All right.

01:16:46.520 To be continued with Charles back soon, I hope.

01:16:48.900 And up next, one of our other faves, Michael Knowles is here.

01:16:53.200 Got some questions for him.

01:16:54.980 About America's Evil Top Hat, also known as Canada.

01:17:00.120 That came up last night.

01:17:01.540 We'll get into it.

01:17:02.240 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM.

01:17:07.500 It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and

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01:18:00.460 Offer details apply.

01:18:06.960 Joining me now, Michael Knowles, host of The Michael Knowles Show over on The Daily Wire.

01:18:13.180 Michael's got a very special announcement that he wants to bring to all of you that we will

01:18:16.280 get to in one moment.

01:18:17.400 But first, MK, from one MK to another, what'd you think last night?

01:18:22.520 Megan, I watched that train wreck for one reason and one reason only.

01:18:28.240 And it is that I love you.

01:18:29.620 And I agreed to do it because I knew we would be talking about it today.

01:18:33.360 That is the only reason.

01:18:34.820 I had a very busy day yesterday.

01:18:36.540 And crucially, I knew that even if it had been a good debate and it had been an exciting

01:18:40.900 debate, not one thing that anyone said would affect the race at all.

01:18:46.300 I was trying to figure out what is going to be my hot take on the debate.

01:18:50.620 And I think my hot take is that the guy who's 49 points behind the GOP frontrunner who didn't

01:18:56.220 show up, he had a few good zingers and he had some interesting insights.

01:19:01.040 But probably the guy who's only 44 points behind the GOP frontrunner, he probably won

01:19:06.620 the debate because he had the most mainstream and impressive answers.

01:19:10.760 And the people who are 54 points and 56 points respectively behind the GOP frontrunner, they

01:19:17.360 did not do quite as well.

01:19:19.220 And what's the upshot of all of it?

01:19:21.260 Absolutely nothing.

01:19:22.820 Yeah.

01:19:24.320 Yes.

01:19:25.120 I'll say this, though.

01:19:26.300 I I've been thinking a lot about it because when I was, you know, deciding, do I do I

01:19:30.940 want to moderate a debate right now without the frontrunner?

01:19:33.180 We're like and I thought, you know, I do want to do it because I think it's good for

01:19:35.860 America.

01:19:36.180 I do.

01:19:36.820 I think it's good to hear these issues discussed so publicly.

01:19:40.180 I think it's good, frankly, for the Republican Party to have their take on these issues.

01:19:45.280 So, so public and debated freely and openly and to see, you know, what they have to offer,

01:19:50.580 even if it's not likely to be the ultimate guy.

01:19:53.760 And so I do think it's a service to the voters, even if they don't wind up.

01:19:57.540 And, you know, as we discussed with Charles C.W.

01:19:59.060 Cook, it's not 100 percent that Trump is going to be able to do it for a bunch of different

01:20:05.220 weird reasons, none of which are good reasons.

01:20:08.340 But let's just be let's be honest.

01:20:10.480 The Republicans better make sure they have settled on their first alternate at a minimum.

01:20:15.920 And there's one skinny path potential.

01:20:18.540 Look, DeSantis got endorsed by Kim Reynolds, the Iowa governor.

01:20:21.340 That could really help him.

01:20:22.260 There's a there's a chance he could wind up winning.

01:20:24.960 Iowa is always kind of weird.

01:20:27.440 You know, it goes its own way.

01:20:29.920 That's the issue.

01:20:31.000 I mean, it's it's different.

01:20:32.580 And then New Hampshire, Nikki's doing well there.

01:20:34.820 So I don't know.

01:20:35.300 Keep going.

01:20:35.600 I just fear that even if the DeSantis campaign is staking its its whole game on Iowa, when

01:20:43.260 was the last time Iowa picked the Republican nominee?

01:20:45.960 It was George W. Bush.

01:20:47.700 Iowa didn't didn't pick McCain in 2008.

01:20:51.100 Right.

01:20:51.320 Didn't pick Romney in 2012.

01:20:52.880 Didn't pick Trump in 2016 even.

01:20:55.000 So, you know, I it's not a knock on DeSantis.

01:20:57.760 I think he's doing a good job.

01:20:58.980 I think he basically won the debate last night.

01:21:00.720 I agree with you.

01:21:01.820 The debates are important because if you have the liberal establishment trying to throw

01:21:07.720 the GOP frontrunner into a gulag or ostracize him to St. Helena, there is a chance they'll

01:21:13.440 succeed.

01:21:13.940 They're very good at political machinations and political organizing, even as we saw in

01:21:18.260 those awful election results just a couple of nights ago.

01:21:20.540 So it could happen.

01:21:21.680 And that's why those candidates are all still on the stage there.

01:21:24.300 And they are representing different aspects of the Republican Party.

01:21:27.480 You've got Vivek representing the more online, younger Republican views, probably.

01:21:34.280 You've got Ron DeSantis representing a Trumpier and more traditionally conservative, yet still

01:21:41.060 broadly mainstream Republican view.

01:21:43.040 You've got Nikki Haley representing probably a Republican view that more of us are familiar

01:21:47.720 with over the last 20 years.

01:21:49.940 You've got Chris Christie representing the Democrat view.

01:21:52.480 It's nice that he's on stage, I guess.

01:21:53.880 And you've got Tim Scott.

01:21:55.140 Tim was probably the most interesting one last night.

01:21:58.160 And this went totally unnoticed in most reactions to it, which is that he said that America

01:22:05.120 is fundamentally and essentially a Christian nation.

01:22:09.500 So Tim Scott, who some people think is milquetoast and he's a really sweet, very nice man, he was

01:22:14.880 articulating a pretty coherent vision of Christian nationalism last night, saying that the presidencies

01:22:19.940 of Abraham Lincoln, of Ronald Reagan, don't make any sense if America is not a Christian nation.

01:22:24.260 The founding era doesn't make any sense if America's not Christian.

01:22:27.280 And if America really does turn away from Christianity, then we'll become some other

01:22:31.540 different country.

01:22:32.280 Maybe we'll succeed.

01:22:33.100 Maybe we won't.

01:22:33.940 But we won't be what America has been.

01:22:36.480 So you actually did see an array of views come out last night.

01:22:40.060 And frankly, the moderators were considerably better than we've seen at some of the earlier

01:22:44.940 debates, even though they're NBC liberals.

01:22:47.200 I'm just looking forward to a competent moderator finally taking over, which I think is happening

01:22:51.000 at the very next debate.

01:22:53.680 There will be three competent people out there that night.

01:22:55.800 I'm excited for it.

01:22:57.500 Let's let's talk about the last time you were on.

01:23:00.720 You nicknamed Canada our evil top hat, which is just one of your best lines.

01:23:04.080 And you've had many.

01:23:05.880 Canada came up repeatedly last night.

01:23:07.700 Suddenly we're turning our eye around Canada and not just because of Justin Trudeau.

01:23:11.340 Um, Vivek Ramaswamy turned the debate about our southern border into a debate about the

01:23:20.220 evil top hat.

01:23:21.440 Listen to Sot 13.

01:23:25.120 I'm the only candidate on the stage, as far as I'm aware, who has actually visited the

01:23:29.120 northern border.

01:23:29.940 There was enough fentanyl that was captured just on the northern border last year to kill

01:23:35.020 three million Americans.

01:23:36.720 So we got to just skate to where the puck is going, not just where the puck is.

01:23:40.860 Don't just build the wall.

01:23:41.980 Build both walls.

01:23:43.000 Can't just complete the wall.

01:23:44.440 Use the military to seal the Swiss cheese for the tunnels that they're actually building

01:23:48.120 underneath that wall.

01:23:49.280 Thank you.

01:23:50.940 OK, so he he wants to build a wall along the northern border to all the walls.

01:23:58.660 We're just we're going to do it.

01:24:00.840 We're going to box ourselves.

01:24:01.580 We get let's do walls on the coasts.

01:24:03.200 We'll do it north.

01:24:03.940 We'll do it south, like all of it.

01:24:06.540 And by the way, he's like, as far as I know, I'm the only one who's visited the northern

01:24:10.720 border.

01:24:11.440 But like none of them has ever gone to Canada.

01:24:15.020 The dereliction.

01:24:17.680 That's true.

01:24:18.320 Think of all the delicious Tim Hortons the other GOP candidates have missed out on.

01:24:22.060 I have to say, though, you know that I have a great deal of disdain for the leadership

01:24:28.400 of America's evil top hat.

01:24:30.560 I actually think my friend Vivek is misguided here because one of the arguments for taking

01:24:35.840 people in across the border is political asylum.

01:24:39.380 And right now in through Mexico, there's really no need for political asylum.

01:24:44.640 The argument from the left is that people fleeing Ecuador or people fleeing Guatemala

01:24:49.280 or Honduras, they're running away from cartels.

01:24:52.180 They're running away from all sorts of terrible situations.

01:24:54.640 And so we need to give them political asylum in the United States.

01:24:57.920 But of course, if you're if you're fleeing from a country in southern or the southern

01:25:01.340 part of Central America, there are several countries that you pass along the way where

01:25:05.720 they could seek political asylum.

01:25:07.340 So the ones who keep going usually are just doing so for economic opportunity.

01:25:11.280 They're economic migrants.

01:25:12.440 The same cannot be said of those fleeing America's evil top hat.

01:25:16.240 The Trudeau government, I'm not joking at all, has persecuted Christians and has persecuted

01:25:23.200 conservatives and ordinary people, people who just want to work and not have their industry

01:25:27.520 shut down by radical environmentalists.

01:25:30.860 And so I think if we're going to find middle ground with the left at all on political asylum,

01:25:35.500 we should find middle ground with political asylum, not from the southern border, but from

01:25:39.780 the northern border where people who are just trying to live an ordinary, good, traditional

01:25:44.720 religious way of life sincerely are being persecuted.

01:25:47.680 So we need to bring all of them over here.

01:25:49.460 That's the only refugee and asylum move that I'm backing.

01:25:53.520 And then we can follow Vivek's plan and erect a big, beautiful wall to keep Fidel Castro's

01:25:59.240 son locked up there in Canada.

01:26:01.840 I'm just so confused about how exactly we will pay for that wall up there.

01:26:08.840 And cover the extremely mountainous terrain between us, them, and like exactly what problem

01:26:17.680 we're trying to solve.

01:26:18.700 I realize there are some who come across that we don't want, but we'll see whether walls all

01:26:23.480 around, let's make America an open air prison, catches on.

01:26:27.240 One never knows.

01:26:29.020 Megan, the answer.

01:26:30.100 Canadian Debbie, my executive producer, one of them.

01:26:32.660 She's from Canada.

01:26:35.060 She lives there now.

01:26:35.640 She's from Ohio, but she left me and moved to Canada along with Kelly McGuire.

01:26:38.840 Two of my top people living in Canada right now.

01:26:41.300 They're doing the show from Canada.

01:26:42.700 And this is what they wanted to say to Vivek Ramaswamy.

01:26:45.520 Reminded them of the following in Sot 14.

01:26:47.640 We must stop dirty language from getting to our children's ears.

01:26:52.380 We must go fight the source of it.

01:26:54.700 But what is the source?

01:26:56.560 Oh, that's easy.

01:26:58.460 Times have changed.

01:27:00.020 Our kids are getting worse.

01:27:00.800 Our kids are getting worse.

01:27:01.620 They won't obey their parents.

01:27:02.960 They just want to fight and curse.

01:27:04.840 Should we blame the government?

01:27:06.240 Or blame society?

01:27:07.800 Or should we blame the images on TV?

01:27:10.260 No, blame Canada.

01:27:11.560 It seems that everything's gone wrong since Canada came along.

01:27:15.340 Blame Canada.

01:27:16.820 Blame Canada.

01:27:18.200 They're not even a real country anyway.

01:27:21.760 One of the greatest South Park skits ever.

01:27:25.440 Prescient as always, Trey Parker and Matt Stone.

01:27:28.080 I've got an answer for your question, though, Megan.

01:27:29.840 You say, I don't know how we're going to pay for the wall on our northern border.

01:27:33.780 And the answer is maple syrup tariffs.

01:27:36.040 That's how.

01:27:36.480 People don't understand how valuable that delicious syrup is.

01:27:39.960 You institute a 7 or 8,000 percent tariff on maple syrup.

01:27:44.540 You're going to pay for that whole border.

01:27:47.720 OK, or we can start taxing cigars.

01:27:50.520 I don't know if Canada is known for its cigars.

01:27:52.740 You're going to walk me through it.

01:27:54.000 But this is the thing.

01:27:55.000 I'm kind of interested in this.

01:27:56.060 I have to say, they said Michael wants to promote a new cigar line that he's behind

01:28:01.700 and the Daily Wire is behind.

01:28:03.380 And I'm not into cigars, but reading the write-up about how important they've been to you and

01:28:10.680 what these supposedly taste like, I started to kind of get into it, my friend.

01:28:16.560 And I want you to walk me through the joy of the cigar and what you're doing.

01:28:20.520 I'm really honored, Megan, that you would do that and maybe even consider having a cigar.

01:28:25.180 This is my cigar, Mayflower Cigars.

01:28:27.060 I wish I could tell people to go buy it right now at mayflowercigars.com.

01:28:31.280 We sold out of a four-month supply in something like nine hours or something.

01:28:37.620 It was certainly within 24 hours.

01:28:39.460 It completely took off.

01:28:41.440 And you mentioned that I had this little about section on the website that was

01:28:45.900 uncharacteristically heartfelt for a product coming from the Daily Wire.

01:28:50.400 But cigars have been very important to me.

01:28:52.820 I started having cigars when I was 15, which is actually old for Italian people.

01:28:57.500 You know, I was a little aged at that point.

01:28:59.240 I wrote my college admissions essay about how much I love cigars.

01:29:02.860 I got my job.

01:29:04.100 I got my show at the Daily Wire by writing a cigar review column.

01:29:07.260 One of my most cherished possessions is a box of cigars my mother gave me like 15 years

01:29:11.420 ago or something.

01:29:12.120 I still have it.

01:29:13.120 This cigar is made at that factory, that very same factory that made that cherished box of

01:29:17.160 cigars.

01:29:17.700 It's a blend we've been working on for a year.

01:29:20.280 It is named Mayflower after some of my non-Italian ancestors who came over here on that ship,

01:29:25.400 fleeing religious persecution, as many are fleeing today.

01:29:28.460 And the argument for cigars is that the body is a temple.

01:29:35.180 The temple needs incense.

01:29:36.700 It's a wonderful way to relax.

01:29:38.620 There's a health risk with anything.

01:29:39.980 You have to be 21 years old or older to buy them and exclusions apply and all the rest of

01:29:43.760 it.

01:29:44.240 But I find that it's a way, especially for men, to relax a little bit, to be introspective,

01:29:51.340 to have a conversation with one another.

01:29:54.100 It's a luxury that is accessible.

01:29:56.000 You can get an extraordinarily high-quality cigar for like $12.

01:29:59.880 The same cannot be said of scotches or wines or anything like that.

01:30:04.240 So it's also the first product that we've ever released from the Daily Wire that wasn't

01:30:09.200 just punching somebody in the face.

01:30:11.140 You know, when we release a razor company.

01:30:13.140 Like Jeremy's Razors.

01:30:13.220 Jeremy's Razors, Jeremy's Chocolates, which I have somewhere around my studio too.

01:30:19.220 This cigar, we didn't know if it was going to work because, you know, while I may lack

01:30:24.380 expertise and hard skills in basically any area whatsoever, I do know a fair bit about

01:30:30.440 cigars.

01:30:31.060 We have two blends here, the Mayflower Dusk and the Mayflower Dawn.

01:30:33.200 But the rapid success, I mean, this might be the most successful consumer product we've

01:30:38.660 ever put out.

01:30:40.140 To me, what it says is that what people long for in our culture is an excellent quality

01:30:47.500 product from people they trust to know what they're talking about the product at a competitive

01:30:52.380 price.

01:30:53.440 And if you had said that people would be longing for that 20 years ago, people would look

01:30:56.860 at you like you had three heads.

01:30:57.860 What are you talking about?

01:30:58.480 That's just the free market.

01:30:59.780 But today, we have companies, first of all, that hate us, who sell us products.

01:31:04.580 And we've taken over this ethos of just shipping everything overseas, making everything as

01:31:09.840 cheaply as possible, not taking a moment to smell the roses or smell the Mayflowers, you

01:31:14.680 know, just constantly hustling and bustling and getting the cheapest good further and further

01:31:18.520 away.

01:31:19.040 The little personal connection to me is really meaningful because it's a company that I'd

01:31:24.040 been thinking of for 15 years.

01:31:25.400 And the fact that now, as the Libs want everybody to smoke the Devil's Lettuce and the Sin Spinach,

01:31:31.560 that people are going to sit back with a nice traditional cigar and relax, I think is just

01:31:36.120 delightful.

01:31:37.300 There's so much in there.

01:31:38.380 Wait, let's just be clear before we gloss over it.

01:31:41.980 They're on back order.

01:31:43.140 But if people want to try this, how do they do it exactly?

01:31:45.680 So they go to MayflowerCigars.com.

01:31:49.040 We launched with two cigar blends, the Dawn and the Dusk, which comes from a famous painting

01:31:53.940 of the Mayflower.

01:31:55.100 And there are different sizes in each, smaller ones, bigger ones.

01:31:58.440 They are all sold out right now.

01:32:00.620 What I would recommend is if you want to try the cigar, we are working very hard to get

01:32:06.260 these cigars restocked.

01:32:07.840 We've got a new shipment coming up from Nicaragua, which produces probably the best cigars in the

01:32:13.500 world today.

01:32:13.900 Uh, we've got that coming up, but there is going to be a lag once we get this next shipment

01:32:18.200 because the cigars take weeks, if not months to age.

01:32:21.160 So if you want to get any, to try any of these cigars, I would order just whatever pops up

01:32:27.460 on the website in the restock.

01:32:29.080 And then you can put your email address, assuming you're 21 years old or older, you can put your

01:32:34.080 email address on the website.

01:32:35.160 You'll get a notification when it comes back up because-

01:32:39.300 So you'll get them.

01:32:39.840 You'll get them eventually.

01:32:40.880 You'll get them eventually.

01:32:41.780 It might take a little while, but you'll get them eventually.

01:32:44.380 But can I ask you, I'm very interested in the fact that you wrote your, I mean, you

01:32:47.260 went to Yale, so, and you were smoking cigars then when you were applying to Yale, which

01:32:52.180 is young.

01:32:53.500 I've never had a cigar.

01:32:55.340 I've, I'm such, I was saying this to Jordan Belfort the other day.

01:32:58.700 I'm such a goody two shoes.

01:33:00.080 I've never smoked a cigarette.

01:33:01.440 I've never tried a drug.

01:33:02.780 I've never had a cigar.

01:33:04.200 I ha I do drink.

01:33:05.360 So that's something, but I got that.

01:33:08.180 But what, what does it, is it gives you like a high, what, the way you describing the way

01:33:13.740 you feel when you smoke a cigar?

01:33:15.320 Could you expand on it?

01:33:16.800 It doesn't give you a high cause you don't inhale it or you'll hack up a lung.

01:33:19.840 You get a little touch of nicotine here and there.

01:33:22.520 Some cigars are stronger than others, but it, it's a, it's something that seems like

01:33:27.320 a vice.

01:33:27.780 I actually don't think it is a vice, but it seems like a vice and gives you an opportunity

01:33:32.260 to relax and not just be constantly glued to work or anxiety.

01:33:37.440 You know, I, I sometimes talk about the health benefits of cigars, which I'm only half joking

01:33:42.060 about because it's, it's the one time that I really get to relax during the day is at

01:33:46.500 night with a book.

01:33:47.260 Maybe I'll have a drink of something.

01:33:48.520 And so, you know, people have said, well, Michael, your family must've been completely

01:33:52.240 insane to let you start smoking cigars at 15.

01:33:55.160 And I thought, well, there are a lot of worse things that a 15 year old boy can get up to.

01:33:59.960 And that the fact that I was, and this is true of a lot of cigar smokers, that I would

01:34:03.980 channel that into something that is a relatively quite moderate.

01:34:07.440 Compared to other things, I think is helpful.

01:34:10.060 Cigars spur the great conversations.

01:34:11.920 You know, men, we can't just sit down and talk to each other.

01:34:14.860 We feel that's kind of weird.

01:34:16.540 You know, we can't just have a phone call.

01:34:18.220 So we sit, especially over a cigar, you know, you're going to get about 45 minutes of just

01:34:23.300 excellent conversation.

01:34:24.900 You're not, you're not necessarily doing business.

01:34:27.860 You're not doing anything utilitarian.

01:34:30.500 It's, it's an indulgence and it's something that's accessible to everyone.

01:34:33.880 You know, cigars are the great equalizer.

01:34:35.860 You go to any cigar lounge.

01:34:37.620 I've been to many, if not most of them in the country, and you'll sit down with a construction

01:34:41.440 worker and a CEO and a politician.

01:34:43.800 And it doesn't matter.

01:34:45.000 Everybody is equal.

01:34:46.520 Everybody's, you know, engaging in the same delight and partaking in the conversation.

01:34:52.040 I just love them.

01:34:53.400 And so I did speak to my admissions officer in college.

01:34:56.200 She told me there was some question about whether they should admit a guy who wrote his

01:35:00.220 admissions essay about a drug.

01:35:01.920 But they, they let me in anyway, I started a club in school called the Society for Intellectual

01:35:06.620 Growth and Reinvigoration or cigar.

01:35:10.080 That was a way to, to scam Yale into paying for my, uh, habit.

01:35:13.460 And, uh, you know, then wrote a column that got me this show.

01:35:16.420 It's, it's much deeper.

01:35:18.020 You know, uh, there was an excellent essay.

01:35:20.640 I think it was in first things that, that compared the three prominent types of tobacco

01:35:24.800 to the tripartite soul.

01:35:26.560 The pipe is for the logic, you know, the philosopher sitting in this pipe, the cigarettes are for

01:35:31.560 the appetite.

01:35:32.340 They're the appetitive part of the soul.

01:35:33.820 It's just an addiction, but the cigars are for the thumos, the thumatic spirited part of

01:35:39.060 the soul for your magnanimity.

01:35:41.320 It's, it's outward.

01:35:42.440 You think of Winston Churchill, you think of the chest puffing out the smoke.

01:35:46.300 Have I gone too far down the rabbit hole, Megan?

01:35:49.080 Have I convinced you to have a cigar?

01:35:50.880 No, I, I love listening to you.

01:35:53.380 I, everything you say is always so fascinating.

01:35:55.200 I only understand about 55% of, but I, it's mellifluous just the way you speak about the

01:36:02.540 things that you love or you judge either way.

01:36:04.660 I'll take you on, on, on all of these things.

01:36:06.880 Maybe tonight, um, I will crack one open and then, wow, Doug's going to have to show me

01:36:11.300 how to do that.

01:36:11.860 But, um, yes, I will, Doug will look over and I'll be, I don't know.

01:36:15.620 How do you even say it?

01:36:16.420 Stoke and a hoagie.

01:36:17.180 What is it?

01:36:18.000 Stoke and a hoagie.

01:36:18.880 I think that's going to be the new, I don't think I've ever heard that phrase before.

01:36:22.060 That's what I'm now going to.

01:36:23.240 I can't wait.

01:36:23.840 Megan, next time we run into each other in person, I can't wait to stoke a hoagie with

01:36:28.200 you.

01:36:31.260 It's a miracle you keep coming on.

01:36:33.180 Sorry you have to deal with this.

01:36:34.780 Michael, thank you.

01:36:36.780 Great to be with you, Megan.

01:36:37.920 Thank you very much.

01:36:38.460 Thank you.

01:36:38.800 Good luck with it.

01:36:39.680 And thanks to all of you for being with us today and all week.

01:36:42.980 Tomorrow, Charlie Kirk is here.

01:36:44.980 That's going to be fun.

01:36:45.760 Um, so we'll talk with him about what he thought about the debate too.

01:36:52.400 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show.

01:36:54.600 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:36:57.040 Thank you.

01:37:15.400 Thank you.

01:37:15.720 Thank you.

01:37:15.820 Thank you.

01:37:16.320 Thank you.

01:37:16.420 Thank you.

01:37:16.740 Thank you.

01:37:17.700 Thank you.

The Megyn Kelly Show - November 09, 2023

Haley vs. Vivek Fight Club, and More GOP Debate Highlights, with Michael Knowles, Emily Jashinsky, Michael Moynihan, and Charles C.W. Cooke ｜ Ep. 666

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