The Megyn Kelly Show - Happiness in Relationships and Work, and Dangers of Social Media, with Gad Saad

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00:00:14.040 Yeah.

00:00:15.080 When I found out my friend got a great deal on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:18.800 I started wondering, is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

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00:00:26.340 Are those from Winners?

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00:00:32.680 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:33.900 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:35.380 That dress?

00:00:36.160 That jacket?

00:00:36.840 Those shoes?

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00:00:45.680 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:47.640 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:57.560 Hey, everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:58.920 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:00.860 Happiness is the subject of today's show.

00:01:04.940 Happiness is a scientific fact.

00:01:07.700 That's good news for us because it means we can study it and we can devise strategies to work on it,

00:01:14.300 to make ourselves happier and more fulfilled human beings.

00:01:18.460 One of the happiest people I know, Dr. Gad Saad, is here with us today to give us all the tools we need to get happier.

00:01:26.660 Gad is professor of marketing at Concordia University, up north of the border, and host of The Sad Truth Podcast.

00:01:35.340 He's here to discuss his new book, The Sad Truth About Happiness, Eight Secrets for Leading the Good Life.

00:01:42.680 Welcome back to the show, Professor.

00:01:44.680 Ah, so good to be with you.

00:01:47.540 You're looking as radiant as ever, Ms. Kelly.

00:01:51.400 Thank you very much.

00:01:52.680 I love this topic.

00:01:54.600 This is like, I would put happiness in sort of the hashtag goals category of my life.

00:02:01.200 You know, it's like, I'm kind of in the news business.

00:02:06.040 I'm a cynical mofo and I work a lot.

00:02:09.280 So I'm like, I definitely feel happy a fair amount, but I'm not like cheery as a default.

00:02:16.020 So do I need to work?

00:02:17.580 Can I work on it, Gad?

00:02:18.980 Can I get to the point where I'm cheery most of my life?

00:02:23.200 So there's good news in that about 50% of our genes are inscribed in our, of our happiness are inscribed in our genes.

00:02:33.000 So that we can't control, but that still leaves 50% up for grabs.

00:02:37.180 And so the good news is that while some of us may indeed be born with a sunnier or more sullen disposition, we can all certainly improve in trying to climb Mount Happiness.

00:02:49.140 So of course there are strategies and mindsets that you could adopt, Megan, to be happier from whatever position you start off at.

00:02:55.100 But is it at all related to IQ?

00:02:58.280 Because I have a strong belief that if I had a lower IQ, I'd be a happier person.

00:03:05.160 You mean because, because the more, you know, the more you're cynical and the more you hate the state of the world.

00:03:10.840 Is that what you're saying?

00:03:11.580 Yes.

00:03:12.160 Yes, exactly.

00:03:12.700 So I, I don't think I'm aware of any research that links IQ to happiness, but maybe one of your viewers will correct me once they watch this, but you're certainly right that the business that you're in makes it easier reflexively to, to be unhappy because you're, you're facing a tsunami daily of all sorts of things that can trigger you in a negative sense.

00:03:35.100 And so, and you know, one of the reasons why, by the way, I wrote this book is precisely because I had spent so many years navigating and fighting within the culture wars.

00:03:44.220 I thought, why don't I take a shot at actually writing about the opposite end of that spectrum, writing about something that makes people feel uplifted, happy.

00:03:52.480 And if I've done a good job, we'll see shortly, uh, people will respond well to it.

00:03:57.060 Yeah.

00:03:57.460 Cause we all have our roles, right?

00:03:59.080 I mean, uh, I, I don't know.

00:04:01.000 I, I think I have a happy ish approach to the news.

00:04:04.860 I don't think people leave feeling depressed most days, but on the other hand, depending on your business, happiness is probably not going to go hand in it.

00:04:11.900 Like I, you know, brave heart, he, he wasn't like running around, skipping to his loo.

00:04:18.300 He had a lot of people to kill.

00:04:19.820 He had to fight for freedom.

00:04:21.080 You know, like we all have our mission that may or may not be aligned with, you know, smiling ear to ear all day.

00:04:26.440 But I like these tips because I believe in these fundamental principles that you've put forward.

00:04:30.960 Now, before we've talked about your background on the show before, but for the audience who sadly missed those shows, um, give us a little bit of your background in Lebanon and, and how it wasn't necessarily all that conducive to a happy adulthood.

00:04:44.940 You got off on, um, arguably the wrong foot in the, in the womb.

00:04:49.960 And then it went kind of rough for the first several years.

00:04:52.980 Do you want me to, to tell the story of the womb that I, right.

00:04:56.800 So, so I was once taken aside by my mother who wanted to sort of, uh, like, uh, like any good Lebanese Jewish mother, she wants to instill tons of existential guilt in you and that you owe her.

00:05:11.040 And so she told me of a story of how close I came to being, uh, aborted, uh, specifically.

00:05:17.180 So my parents, uh, they had three children.

00:05:19.860 They, they got married very young.

00:05:20.980 My, my mother was almost 16 years old.

00:05:23.220 My dad was four years older than her.

00:05:25.960 And by the time she was 19, she had already had three kids.

00:05:29.360 And then, uh, I came along 10 years later as an accident.

00:05:33.180 And so my mother was dead set and this is in the sixties.

00:05:36.460 She was dead set against having another child.

00:05:38.700 And so she wanted to get an abortion.

00:05:40.400 My father, uh, was dead set against that idea.

00:05:43.880 So they kept arguing as the story goes.

00:05:46.340 And then as a last ditch effort, she contacted.

00:05:49.100 Her best friend at the time, a Syrian woman who lived in Damascus, which is maybe a two and

00:05:55.440 a half hour drive from Beirut, uh, to try to get her.

00:05:59.440 He, he contacted her to get him, get her to come down because maybe my mother would listen,

00:06:03.800 uh, to her, uh, since she's her best friend.

00:06:07.560 And my mother said once her name was Hassan, once Hassan came over, she said, don't try to

00:06:13.040 change my mind.

00:06:13.620 I'm never going to change my mind.

00:06:15.020 The next, on that next fateful day, when they were going to the clinic, they got up,

00:06:20.140 uh, the, uh, stairs of the clinic where she was going to get the abortion.

00:06:24.740 And, uh, she then stopped and told her friend, her best friend, okay, I've changed my mind.

00:06:30.060 Uh, let's leave.

00:06:31.680 Uh, and then my mother always reminds me, you came this close to being fish food, fish food,

00:06:37.680 which was her, her rather, uh, visual colloquial or not colloquial, uh, euphemism for having

00:06:44.800 been aborted.

00:06:45.320 So already that gave me a sense of existential bliss in that I very, I, I, I, well, I came

00:06:51.740 close to never having existed.

00:06:53.820 Imagine if I would have never had the pleasure 50 plus years later of meeting Megan Kelly.

00:06:58.980 So that's one.

00:06:59.620 But then later by the age of 10, uh, so I grew up in Lebanon.

00:07:04.100 Uh, so to answer your question about my background, uh, I grew up in Lebanon where we were part

00:07:09.160 of the last remaining, uh, group of Jews that had not left Lebanon.

00:07:13.020 And then the civil war broke out when it, where it became very, very difficult, uh, and precarious

00:07:18.420 to be Jewish in the middle East.

00:07:20.580 We faced some very difficult circumstances.

00:07:23.060 So in a sense, even though I went through some very harrowing periods in my childhood, that

00:07:29.280 actually many years down the line offers me a deep appreciation for life because on, in

00:07:36.460 so many places, my life could have ended even before it started, if not ended when I was

00:07:41.380 very young.

00:07:41.960 And so I do wake up with a sense of existential gratitude.

00:07:45.580 I can think all these people out there are thinking they have it rough.

00:07:48.460 Gad has a mother who's not a very nice person.

00:07:51.580 And on top of that, he grew up persecuted minority in a war torn country.

00:07:57.300 And yet still has found the keys to happiness.

00:08:01.080 So when you think back on your childhood, Gad, like, do you, were you always a cheery guy?

00:08:05.940 Because I think of you as a cheerful warrior, you know, when you're out there being a honey

00:08:09.960 badger, fighting these fights in the midst of the academy, the liberal academy.

00:08:15.740 So were you always like this?

00:08:17.720 I've always been a joker.

00:08:19.400 I remember my mother saying that, my God, you have such a sharp tongue.

00:08:24.000 There are specific Arabic words that speak to that.

00:08:27.180 So that sense of, you know, sarcasm and satire and mockery that you see me exhibiting on a

00:08:33.240 daily basis on social media when I'm taking on all sorts of miscreants.

00:08:37.340 I used to have it when I was a very young kid.

00:08:39.960 So, yeah, I mean, that's the part that I was fortunate enough to be endowed in my genes

00:08:46.200 with a sunny disposition.

00:08:47.160 But again, life throws all sorts of curveballs at you.

00:08:51.080 And so, you know, we can all use certain types of prescriptions and mindsets and decisions

00:08:56.720 that we make that could hopefully always improve our lot and happiness, irrespective of where

00:09:01.740 we start off.

00:09:03.020 Well, I made a joke about your mom, but I think the truth is her mocking you like that a little

00:09:07.740 bit, you know, kind of telling you the story in the first place and making light of it.

00:09:10.760 It is a gift from a parent to a child to raise someone who can make fun of themselves.

00:09:15.900 I mean, it's like a really important part of parenthood to teach your child not to take

00:09:21.560 him or herself too seriously, right?

00:09:23.960 Because especially in today's climate where everyone is so easily wounded by just the smallest

00:09:29.120 little thing.

00:09:31.220 Exactly right.

00:09:32.020 And, you know, I remember in one of my earlier appearances on your show, you had mentioned

00:09:37.640 that both you and your husband, Doug, appreciate some of my comedic skits and so on.

00:09:42.780 You know, it takes a lot of courage and self-assuredness to be able to don the pink wig pretending to

00:09:50.500 be, you know, a woke person or to self-flagellate or to hide under the desk.

00:09:55.220 Some of my colleagues will write to me and say, you know, you know, they in a very sort

00:09:59.900 of haughty way, don't you think that that, you know, questions, you know, the seriousness

00:10:05.920 of you being a, you know, a professor by doing this to the contrary, the fact that I can both

00:10:11.920 go to Stanford and speak there and be playful and not take myself seriously speaks to my

00:10:17.240 having a lot of sense of self-assuredness.

00:10:20.160 Since I am your number one video fan, I love the Gadsad videos.

00:10:24.220 They make me laugh out loud.

00:10:25.200 So does Doug, my husband.

00:10:26.240 We put together just a little like a montage of a few of them for the audience members who

00:10:30.860 are sad.

00:10:31.960 I'm sorry enough not to have seen them before.

00:10:34.020 Here's just a little sampling.

00:10:36.560 Be quiet.

00:10:37.440 They're coming for you.

00:10:39.300 Why?

00:10:40.360 The Roe versus Wade has been overturned.

00:10:43.380 And what now is going to happen is women are no longer safe in the United States.

00:10:48.000 Why aren't you hiding under the desk with me?

00:10:49.800 Come under the desk.

00:10:50.660 Come on.

00:10:51.160 I hear them coming.

00:10:51.980 OK, bye.

00:10:52.300 An acquaintance sent me an article in Salon.

00:10:55.500 Wherein a psychologist by the name of John Gartner said that the reason why the number

00:11:06.700 of deaths due to COVID is so high in the United States is because Donald Trump is a sexual sadist.

00:11:14.800 I'm back to hiding under the table.

00:11:16.760 We need to be protected from sexual sadist Donald Trump, who's trying to kill people because of his masturbatory urges.

00:11:29.180 Think of me.

00:11:31.120 Ciao.

00:11:31.340 Now I find out that the ultimate white supremacist and real anti-Semite, Tucker Carlson, is going to be relaunching his show on Twitter.

00:11:46.760 I think Tucker is coming to take me.

00:11:48.460 I gotta go by.

00:11:53.340 Thank God for that desk ad.

00:11:54.980 You seem to have a particular penchant for the under the desk series because I don't know if you've watched the self-flagellation ones and all the other ones.

00:12:05.220 Yes.

00:12:05.520 No, I love the under the desk.

00:12:06.820 It's my favorite thing.

00:12:07.600 I just love you pretending to be scared like these crazy lefties online who get so upset over the smallest thing.

00:12:14.980 Makes me happy.

00:12:15.980 That brings me happy.

00:12:17.140 All right.

00:12:17.300 So now one of the reasons to think about happiness, if you're not thinking about it out there, but you'd like to work on it,

00:12:22.220 is not just because you might feel better and it's fun to laugh and so on.

00:12:25.980 It's because it's actually important to our health, to our well-being.

00:12:32.140 And so, I mean, how does that play out?

00:12:34.080 Like how big a factor?

00:12:35.280 If you have a happy person who smokes, do you think they're in better shape for a long life than an unhappy person who doesn't?

00:12:44.180 Well, of course, I mean, where we end up in terms of our health is a consequence of it's a multi-factor, you know, reality.

00:12:53.040 Right.

00:12:53.220 And so if I smoke four packs a day and I'm the happiest person, I might still get lung cancer.

00:12:59.820 But, you know, life is about navigating through the statistical vagaries of life.

00:13:05.280 Right.

00:13:05.580 And so I want to put as many of the odds in my favor as possible.

00:13:09.820 And so certainly, so for example, I lost a lot of weight, even in the clips that you've shown, there is a clear difference in my weight.

00:13:17.460 Well, you know, God willing, I won't be stricken by some disease, but by losing a lot of weight, I've certainly put the odds in my favor to hopefully live a long, healthy life.

00:13:27.280 But by the same token, happiness does protect us both in terms of our mental and physical health in a myriad of ways.

00:13:34.720 So here's one.

00:13:35.980 It turns out, Megan, that Harvard has been doing a longitudinal study for close to 80 plus years now looking at, you know, what are the key factors of well-being?

00:13:47.400 And the number one factor is the quality of your social relationships, even more so than, say, your cholesterol scores when you're 50.

00:13:58.120 Now, why would that matter?

00:13:59.660 Because it turns out that, you know, if you're if you have good relationships, it helps with your inflammatory response.

00:14:07.660 You're likely to have less inflammation if you are existentially happy with your relationships.

00:14:12.940 And so, yes, of course, happiness affects us both in terms of our mental well-being and our physical well-being.

00:14:19.420 I definitely want to talk about relationships.

00:14:21.040 But before we get to that, the other thing you point out is so happiness helps your health and well-being, but it also helps you do the things that will help your well-being flourish.

00:14:32.800 Like if you are sitting on your couch right now and cannot find the motivation to get up, it could be that the thing you need to work on is laughing a little bit more each day.

00:14:42.560 Like having a little bit more joy in your day.

00:14:45.680 So how does happiness give rise to those better choices?

00:14:50.600 Right.

00:14:50.800 So it's it's exactly what you said.

00:14:52.500 It's a sort of an orgiastic circle of feedback loop.

00:14:55.560 Right.

00:14:55.820 So if I am happier, I make better decisions.

00:14:59.200 I'm more likely to exercise.

00:15:01.100 I'm more likely to be careful in what I eat.

00:15:04.160 If I become healthier because I am exercising and I'm eating better, that makes me happier.

00:15:10.200 And so goes the circular feedback loop.

00:15:12.820 So it's exactly what you're saying.

00:15:14.740 This is and it costs very little to have some of these interventions.

00:15:19.120 Right.

00:15:19.620 You know, if you're a mental health professional or a physician, you know, trying to get someone to get out of their loneliness slump might be a very direct.

00:15:32.700 I mean, it sounds wishy washy.

00:15:34.400 Right.

00:15:34.580 It doesn't sound as, quote, scientific as giving someone a pill if they have high cholesterol.

00:15:40.300 But these intervention strategies, there's tons of research, some of which I, of course, reference in the book that shows that the types of strategies that we partake in have a profound downstream effect on our mental health and physical health.

00:15:55.460 So be happy.

00:15:56.460 Get happy.

00:15:57.420 We're all worried about social media and children, whether I mean, my kids aren't allowed on, but I'm worried about other people's kids, too.

00:16:05.140 That's the future.

00:16:06.220 And this is another interesting thing.

00:16:08.260 You suggest that this could be the antidote to your child falling prey to the depression that comes from online social media.

00:16:18.860 So, in other words, the happier your child goes in to the Internet, the happier he or she will come out of the Internet, even if what they've seen on the Internet is the bodies that look perfect and the absolutely amazing filtered faces, etc.

00:16:35.020 Indeed.

00:16:36.020 Indeed.

00:16:36.440 I'm amazed that you've been able to withstand your children's pressures to get online because my children are 14.

00:16:45.640 Right.

00:16:46.600 I'll have to take some tips from you offline.

00:16:48.740 I have found that, I mean, I often joke, but frankly, it's not really much of a joke.

00:16:54.860 I joke that it's easier to get a crystal meth addict to stop, you know, becoming, being a crystal meth addict than it is to pry the cell phone away from my children or cell phone or iPad or whatever electronic device they're on.

00:17:09.280 So, what has been your rule?

00:17:11.500 You simply say, we're never going to do it?

00:17:14.020 You never allow them on?

00:17:15.400 I haven't said never because, of course, as they get older, they're going to have to have it going off to college, I'm sure.

00:17:21.600 But not while they're in my house.

00:17:24.140 I mean, I just say you can't.

00:17:25.860 You know, you can have a phone.

00:17:27.480 Like our 14-year-old, he's about to turn 14, he has a phone and we just got my daughter one.

00:17:35.520 But they know that they're not allowed to have any social media on there.

00:17:38.220 So, they use it for texting.

00:17:40.700 That's pretty much all they use it for.

00:17:41.960 They don't really have email.

00:17:42.820 They have school email.

00:17:43.580 But it's nice because it's less of a lure when it doesn't have all those, you know, Instagram and all those things calling them.

00:17:50.800 And I've just heard so many moms be like, oh, my God, my daughter went on there totally in a great mood.

00:17:54.880 And then she was completely depressed when she put it away.

00:17:57.700 And, gee, I wonder what the problem is.

00:17:59.260 Oh, you do?

00:18:00.580 Let me help you out.

00:18:02.960 Yeah, well, look, of course, it's uniquely problematic for children because they don't have some of the, you know, defensive, protective mechanisms that allow them to, you know, view those images in context.

00:18:16.000 But it also affects adults profoundly, right?

00:18:18.660 Because what happens on social media, there is a curated set of images of my best self that I'm putting forward, right?

00:18:27.820 So, here I am with, you know, celebrating the anniversary with my wife.

00:18:32.120 Here I am in Portugal, right?

00:18:33.920 You're not seeing any of my problems.

00:18:35.840 You're only seeing that I live this wonderful, great, positive life.

00:18:39.960 And everybody's doing that.

00:18:41.420 And so, our brains end up overestimating how happy other people are in relation to us.

00:18:48.500 And so, we walk away feeling really shitty about ourselves because everybody else seems to have a nicer car than me, a better marriage than me, is going to more exotic places than me.

00:18:57.000 So, imagine if it affects adults in the way that it does.

00:18:59.880 Children almost have no chance.

00:19:01.420 By the way, if I add one more thing about this kind of relative comparative thing as relating to happiness.

00:19:08.000 I cite this really cool study in the book regarding the relationship between sexual frequency, you know, having sex, and happiness.

00:19:16.860 And no one who is listening to this show is going to be surprised that all other things equal.

00:19:21.320 The more sex that someone has, the happier they are.

00:19:23.900 But now, here's the second part that's actually quite interesting.

00:19:27.040 It's not enough for me to have more sex than you, Megan.

00:19:30.960 Sorry.

00:19:31.560 It's not only important for me to have a lot of sex.

00:19:33.900 Ideally, it's also important that I have more sex than all of my friends because we are a social comparison species, right?

00:19:43.360 And so, I joke in the book.

00:19:44.540 I say, not only do you want to marry someone who has a, you know, libidinal drive, make sure that all of your friends are chaste nuns.

00:19:52.640 That's your ticket to happiness.

00:19:54.200 Oh, my God.

00:19:54.780 This is reminding me.

00:19:55.720 One of my guilty pleasures is the Real Housewives of Miami.

00:19:59.280 These women are absolutely terrible in the best sense.

00:20:02.200 And there's one on there who used to be married to Scottie Pippen, the basketball player, who claims when they were married, which they were married for like 20 years, she claims they had sex four times a night.

00:20:14.020 Four times a night.

00:20:15.400 You'd be in an insane asylum.

00:20:17.640 I'm calling bullshit on that.

00:20:17.700 Yeah, there's just no way.

00:20:19.340 There's no way.

00:20:19.880 Okay.

00:20:20.700 Here's another thing you write.

00:20:22.560 Okay.

00:20:24.540 Let me pull it up.

00:20:25.180 Happy people, you say, tend to find the silver lining in whatever happens.

00:20:31.480 This is a trait or a mindset that can be nurtured or trained as in cognitive behavioral therapy.

00:20:37.540 Okay.

00:20:37.940 It can stand independent of genetics.

00:20:39.840 So, I love this.

00:20:41.200 I love this because we have three kids.

00:20:43.720 My youngest is nine.

00:20:45.340 And he came home from this sailing competition.

00:20:49.160 You know, they're learning how to sail at the Jersey Shore here.

00:20:51.320 And he was with his little buddy.

00:20:53.400 And he said, oh, you know, we won.

00:20:55.740 And they promised us candy.

00:20:56.900 But there was no candy.

00:20:58.500 You know, we got no candy.

00:20:59.400 And it was, by that point, it was hot.

00:21:01.240 It was sticky.

00:21:02.000 And we, you know, the promises were not kept.

00:21:04.140 And it sucked.

00:21:05.240 And his little buddy was like, oh, but they promised they'd give us candy tomorrow.

00:21:09.720 And, you know, tomorrow we could go back.

00:21:11.260 They said we might even get double tomorrow.

00:21:13.660 He's like, yeah.

00:21:14.420 So, my husband pulls my son aside later.

00:21:16.960 He says, you know, Thatcher, do you remember how your little buddy reacted there?

00:21:20.340 Like, that's a choice.

00:21:21.560 You could look at it like that, too.

00:21:22.980 You don't have to, you know.

00:21:24.440 So, now, Gad, what we have is Thatcher.

00:21:27.260 Thatcher.

00:21:30.180 I don't mean to complain, but.

00:21:33.720 And then.

00:21:34.320 So, every complaint is still there.

00:21:36.440 But I don't want to be a whiner.

00:21:38.340 So, we've at least sparked the awareness because of your sentence here.

00:21:43.560 Yeah, nice.

00:21:44.100 Well, I tell, and I think it's around that passage where I tell the, you know, one of

00:21:50.000 those banal moments of life that exactly capture what I talked about there.

00:21:54.340 I think our heater downstairs in the basement, you know, I live in Montreal where it can get

00:22:01.180 very cold in winter.

00:22:02.280 And our heater had broken down.

00:22:04.160 And so, it was a Saturday.

00:22:05.500 I wanted to just sit and watch soccer.

00:22:07.600 And now we have to call some, you know, technician to come in and fix it.

00:22:11.320 And I'm all pissed off and so on.

00:22:13.300 And my wife looks at me and says, well, isn't it great that it happened early in the winter

00:22:18.200 rather than later in the winter when it's going to be a lot, you know, we would have

00:22:23.260 had a much worse time if it were much colder.

00:22:25.360 And I kind of looked at her and I was kind of irate at her optimism.

00:22:29.120 I'm like, God damn it.

00:22:30.660 Just kind of give me the dignity of being upset because she can always turn every single

00:22:35.560 scenario into a positive.

00:22:37.800 And, of course, that makes her happy as well.

00:22:40.700 And that's why I think one of the reasons we have a very happy marriage is that we're

00:22:45.100 constantly feeding off the positivity of each other.

00:22:49.520 Yes.

00:22:49.940 And a sense of humor helps too.

00:22:51.440 I would have been like, you're annoying.

00:22:52.960 I'm mad.

00:22:54.400 Let me have it.

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00:23:02.440 and improving your cognitive abilities.

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00:23:09.880 slash health.

00:23:14.120 So you talk about the personality factors that may help drive happiness, correlation between

00:23:20.280 certain character traits and well-being.

00:23:22.660 And a couple of them I'm just going to throw out at you.

00:23:25.560 Honesty, humility, emotionality.

00:23:29.040 That's not so good.

00:23:31.080 Extroversion, agreeableness, conscientiousness and openness.

00:23:36.020 But we don't like neuroticism.

00:23:38.980 OK, that's half of our respective countries.

00:23:42.360 Emotionality, I mentioned.

00:23:44.140 Why?

00:23:44.700 Why?

00:23:45.280 Like, what does it mean, emotionality and neuroticism?

00:23:48.140 And that seems like an obvious one.

00:23:49.480 But is there anybody who thinks that that's important at well-being?

00:23:52.540 Well, so what you're describing there is typically the biggest, if you like, taxonomy of personality

00:23:59.580 traits is known as the big five.

00:24:01.540 And you mentioned, you know, all of those big five.

00:24:04.420 Big five just means that on the greatest amount of variance that you see across people in terms

00:24:10.320 of their personality types can be captured by those five traits.

00:24:14.240 So something like agreeableness, you know, it doesn't take a fancy psychologist to understand

00:24:17.680 that the higher I score on agreeableness, the more likely I am to be happy, the more neurotic

00:24:22.720 I am.

00:24:23.180 I mean, I was just just today, I to link what you just asked me to something on social media.

00:24:28.700 I don't know if you've ever been exposed to the content of Rob Reiner.

00:24:34.140 Have you, have you, Megan?

00:24:35.040 Oh, my God.

00:24:36.100 He's an insane lunatic.

00:24:37.080 I mean, it doesn't take Gatsad to have the psychological acuity to understand that that's

00:24:44.500 not going to be a pathway to happiness.

00:24:47.100 And actually, I wrote to him.

00:24:48.440 I responded.

00:24:49.140 I said, hey, man, life is short.

00:24:51.860 Every moment is precious.

00:24:53.700 Maybe now I engage in some shameless plugging.

00:24:56.300 I then shared a link to my book.

00:24:58.060 I said, you really need to read this book because, you know, stop navigating endlessly in

00:25:03.920 this, you know, this political vitriol.

00:25:06.120 Of course, there's a there's room for political discussions.

00:25:09.120 But if every single minute of the day, every second.

00:25:13.420 So so that speaks to the question when you mentioned about emotionality.

00:25:16.360 I mean, it it can't be a healthy thing to.

00:25:19.480 I mean, you are one of the luckiest person, you're right.

00:25:22.280 You're a Hollywood person.

00:25:23.760 You've had a, you know, a very successful career.

00:25:26.540 I get it.

00:25:27.440 The Republicans are Nazis and Donald Trump is Hitler.

00:25:31.140 Move on, man.

00:25:31.900 Read a book, exercise, hug your wife.

00:25:34.940 But, you know, he is stuck.

00:25:36.360 He's a neurotic, emotional freak.

00:25:39.060 And I'm sure that, you know, he's probably scoring on the highest end of the most unhappy,

00:25:44.440 miserable people alive.

00:25:46.400 That is so true.

00:25:47.920 Gosh, you're right.

00:25:48.780 You can see it on on certain people.

00:25:50.700 Now, what about extroversion?

00:25:52.480 Does that mean introverts are less happy than extroverts?

00:25:56.420 Is that the way we use this term here?

00:25:58.720 So the way that I think the mechanism works there is that by my being more extroverted,

00:26:03.680 it opens me up to greater sociality, more opportunities to interact with, you know,

00:26:09.640 meaningfully with others.

00:26:11.280 And therefore, by being extroverted, it inoculates me against a sense of social isolation and loneliness

00:26:17.760 and so on.

00:26:18.320 So I think that's the pathway by which that particular trait works.

00:26:21.560 And I'll give you a snippet of that that just happened to me in Portugal.

00:26:27.920 We were, my family and I went on a 16-day trip.

00:26:30.880 I saw your pictures.

00:26:32.300 Oh, did you?

00:26:32.820 Isn't that incredible?

00:26:33.920 It looked amazing.

00:26:35.220 Yes, it looked amazing.

00:26:36.580 And by the way, my wife told me to tell you, oh, remind her that we had a similar Guillaume

00:26:41.900 story, not quite as incredible as your Guillaume story, but her luggage was lost and it took

00:26:49.200 three days for Air Canada to find us in the Algarve, which is on the southern coast of Portugal.

00:26:56.040 So we empathize with whatever you went through, although your story was perhaps more harrowing.

00:27:01.060 But in any case, once we finished our first 12 days on the beach, we then went on to Lisbon.

00:27:08.540 And on our first day in Lisbon, as we were kind of walking around somewhat tired, it was incredibly hot.

00:27:13.680 I saw a gentleman look at me and smile and say, hello.

00:27:16.920 I figured, oh, maybe it was presumptuous of me.

00:27:19.680 I thought, oh, maybe he recognized me.

00:27:21.340 He's a fan.

00:27:21.860 But then I quickly realized that he hadn't recognized me.

00:27:25.300 He just looked at me and said, do you mind if I ask a request?

00:27:29.120 I said, sure, go ahead.

00:27:30.620 He said, oh, well, I'm working on a project where I just identify people who have interesting faces

00:27:35.860 and take their photos.

00:27:37.780 And then I asked them, what are their two secrets to happiness?

00:27:41.060 I said, oh, my goodness.

00:27:43.060 Well, it might interest you to know that I'm an author and I have a forthcoming book on happiness.

00:27:47.740 And then we ended up spending about 20, 25 minutes, Megan, just the serendipitous moment

00:27:54.520 where two strangers are locked in this really honest, authentic conversation.

00:27:59.900 And I don't think that that conversation would have happened had I not been an extroverted person

00:28:04.560 because I probably would have not sent the cues that would have given him the courage to approach me.

00:28:09.940 But I have an open face.

00:28:11.340 I am smiley.

00:28:13.120 You know, I try to say hello to everyone, even strangers, and that gave him the courage to approach me.

00:28:18.100 And then we had a wonderful moment together.

00:28:20.380 All right.

00:28:20.860 I'm going to try that.

00:28:21.820 I think I have more of a resting bitch face.

00:28:24.520 We had somebody come on recently to say you have to be you have to be friendly.

00:28:27.460 You have to have lots of people in your life, lots of friends.

00:28:29.620 And Abby and I are both like we're going to be dead soon.

00:28:32.120 We don't like people.

00:28:33.100 So I'm going to work on that.

00:28:34.020 OK, do you think before you go on, do you think that that might have been a protective mechanism

00:28:40.780 that you developed early in life?

00:28:42.900 Because already women have to put up, you know, a more defensive shell when they're out in public.

00:28:48.520 If you're an attractive woman, then you even have to do that more.

00:28:51.360 Because if you now smile innocently at a man, just innocently,

00:28:56.100 he is much more likely to attribute that as meaning that there is sexual interest,

00:28:59.780 whereas you're just trying to be nice.

00:29:01.100 No, because I did not grow up attractive.

00:29:04.260 I was an unattractive child, which was a gift to me.

00:29:07.060 That was actually a blessing to grow up with an unattractive face and body, to be honest.

00:29:12.100 So I had to rely on my personality.

00:29:14.880 I was actually more extroverted, I would say, as a kid than I am as an adult.

00:29:18.980 And it has nothing to do with looks as an adult.

00:29:20.940 I think it's just, you know, you live in New York City.

00:29:23.620 Of course, I was for 14 years at Fox News while living on the Upper West Side of Manhattan,

00:29:28.380 kind of like your circumstance where you're this heterodox thinker in the middle of academia.

00:29:32.820 And so you just kind of get more guarded.

00:29:36.040 You know, you just try not to make as much eye contact and keep your head down and, you know, your mouth shut.

00:29:42.140 It's not a great side effect of those choices.

00:29:44.820 But I will say this, Gad, having now moved out of the Upper West Side, out of Fox News and into a sort of different line of work,

00:29:54.180 I am much happier and I actually am a little bit more open to people approaching me and me reaching out.

00:30:02.740 Maybe the guy would have stopped me.

00:30:03.880 Maybe he wouldn't have.

00:30:04.520 But it's good to know that it's good for us to say yes to that, if with our face and or our voices.

00:30:11.260 All right.

00:30:11.460 How about dough, money?

00:30:15.540 Raul, great one.

00:30:16.700 Yeah.

00:30:17.280 So that comes all those discussions about personality and happiness and money and happiness.

00:30:21.760 I have a whole chapter where I just enumerate a whole bunch of correlates to happiness.

00:30:28.460 We can, if you want, have to talk about religiosity and happiness and so on.

00:30:31.520 But to your point about money, money only garners you happiness up to an inflection point.

00:30:38.380 Now, people can debate.

00:30:39.860 Originally, there was a famous classic study that said beyond $75,000, you don't get much bang for your buck.

00:30:47.840 In other words, someone who makes $200,000 may not be noticeably happier than someone who makes $100,000.

00:30:54.640 Now, the $75,000 is not difficult to explain.

00:30:57.660 It's because it allows us to put food on the table, not have to worry about whether we're going to hopefully pay our mortgage and so on and so forth.

00:31:05.480 But other studies have now shown that that number might be a bit higher.

00:31:11.400 But generally speaking, money is not the pathway to happiness because it doesn't give you purpose and meaning.

00:31:18.500 And I actually tell the story.

00:31:20.040 Well, I tell several stories in the book regarding that link.

00:31:23.720 But one powerful story is in, I think it was 1992, I was in my second, finishing my second year of my PhD.

00:31:33.240 And one of my intellectual heroes, a psychologist by the name of Herbert Simon, who won the Nobel Prize in economics in 1978, was coming to Cornell to speak.

00:31:44.380 And my former doctoral supervisor knew him well.

00:31:47.700 And so I was just excited that I would get to meet this great man and so on.

00:31:50.880 And so I was telling a family member with whom I was traveling to Rio on vacation, the Rio carnival in Brazil.

00:31:57.020 I was telling him, oh, I'm so excited that I'm going to be meeting Herb Simon, this great man and so on.

00:32:02.740 And this family member looked at me.

00:32:04.780 This family member, by the way, you know, one of his claims to fame is that he was incredibly wealthy.

00:32:10.900 He owned many Ferraris and an Aston Martin.

00:32:13.760 And so he was very much in the pursuit of pecuniary things, money.

00:32:17.760 And so he looked at me with complete arrogance and said, who the hell is this guy?

00:32:21.920 I could probably buy him over 500 times.

00:32:25.080 And I said, well, maybe you could buy him over 500 times, but 500 people will line up to speak to him, whereas nobody gives a damn about anything you have to say.

00:32:33.080 There goes my sharp tongue again, Megan.

00:32:34.960 And so that really captures two mindsets.

00:32:40.260 This family member of mine viewed his sense of self-worth and his success simply by the material possessions that he had accumulated.

00:32:49.220 And I said he was wealthy because he ended up losing all of his money, as often happens to these people who spend their money lavishly.

00:32:57.180 Now, I'm not saying this in a vindictive or gleeful way.

00:33:01.220 I didn't wish this upon him.

00:33:03.640 But on the other hand, I have made a lot less money in my life than he has.

00:33:07.940 But I get the honor and privilege to speak to Megyn Kelly and Joe Rogan because people are interested in the ideas that I have to share with the world.

00:33:17.720 I think that makes me a lot wealthier than someone who owns three Ferraris.

00:33:21.920 Mm-hmm.

00:33:23.300 And you write also about earning the money as opposed to sort of finding the money via lottery or inheritance.

00:33:32.720 And this is something people think about.

00:33:34.720 You know, like I didn't grow up with any money, but now, you know, God willing, I'll be able to pass some on to my children.

00:33:41.380 And you really do have to think about that because it's not really the greatest gift to come into a bunch of dough.

00:33:48.060 I mean, it's nice to have a nest egg and all that where you don't have to worry about paying your bills or you can pay off your college loans.

00:33:53.880 However, it doesn't actually, it really doesn't make you happy when you didn't earn it.

00:33:59.240 Indeed.

00:33:59.800 And there's a lot of very compelling research going back to the 1970s looking at the correlation between happiness and lottery winners.

00:34:08.640 And again, there is some kind of conflicting results, but the general storyline is that exactly to your point, Megan, lottery winners have a very short momentary uptake in their happiness.

00:34:20.620 But over the long run, it doesn't lead to, you know, an enduring sense of existential happiness.

00:34:25.960 One of the reasons being, exactly as you said, because I didn't earn it, right?

00:34:30.200 When I make money off my hard work, then I can feel proud of what I did.

00:34:35.520 You know, the market has spoken and has said, hey, we love the stuff that you put out there.

00:34:40.200 And therefore, I can feel it can carry me much further.

00:34:45.140 So, yeah, you're exactly right.

00:34:46.520 I think about this a lot because, you know, we will go to these fancy places or on vacation, what have you.

00:34:53.340 And nine times out of 10, you look around and it's these investment bankers or these hedge fund guys.

00:34:58.360 And a lot of times the wives don't work or never worked.

00:35:01.940 And that's fine.

00:35:02.660 If that's your choice as a woman or a man, God love you.

00:35:05.980 But it wasn't our choice.

00:35:07.020 And I will say in my case, I love knowing that I earned the money.

00:35:12.840 It's mine.

00:35:13.760 You know, it's ours now.

00:35:14.720 But like I earned it and there's there's I'm proud of it.

00:35:18.640 You know, I'm proud.

00:35:19.320 I'm happy when like the waiter or the hotel manager comes over and they just kind of assume whatever they go right to Doug.

00:35:25.920 They shake the hand.

00:35:26.680 I like sitting there like you're such a dumbass.

00:35:30.880 It brings me joy.

00:35:32.140 It makes me happy.

00:35:34.000 Right.

00:35:34.620 And I suspect, I mean, you know, not to pry into your your financial situation, but I'm willing to bet that you probably don't have to be working.

00:35:43.020 And, you know, you started this great new show and now it's usually successful.

00:35:46.480 One of the top podcasts.

00:35:48.180 But you do it because you love what you do.

00:35:50.240 Right.

00:35:50.480 It's I mean, I'm almost willing to bet that it was never the case that you said, oh, I've got to start this new podcast because I need to make more money.

00:35:57.980 That's going to make me happy.

00:35:59.240 Would that be a safe assumption?

00:36:00.580 Right.

00:36:01.040 That's correct.

00:36:01.660 Because you get to meet interesting people.

00:36:04.380 You get to have wonderful conversations.

00:36:05.840 People get to come up to you and say, hey, I love this show or that show.

00:36:09.140 And that gives you purpose and meaning.

00:36:10.920 That's the ticket to happiness.

00:36:12.920 Yeah.

00:36:13.160 And I've said before, it's almost cathartic for me, you know, as I have strong feelings on these issues of the day, the fights that you're fighting and that I'm fighting.

00:36:19.120 And once I'm done with the show, I feel better.

00:36:21.500 I just feel like, OK, thank God I had the opportunity to speak truth, to set the record straight for people out there, for myself.

00:36:29.220 So, yeah, I mean, I found the right the right profession and the right job within it.

00:36:34.280 But it seems to me from reading the book, that's not nearly as important as finding the right partner.

00:36:40.680 OK, so there's the social relationships.

00:36:42.060 We know that you mentioned that, of course, we need friends.

00:36:44.720 But relationships, I mean, there's number one.

00:36:46.980 There's one that's the most important in your life.

00:36:49.120 And you spend a lot of time urging people to get it right and have thoughts on how to do that.

00:36:55.260 Yes.

00:36:56.140 Thank you for that question.

00:36:58.000 So there are two, if you like, evolutionary maxims when it comes to mate choice.

00:37:04.020 There's the opposites attract maxim.

00:37:07.100 And then there's the birds of a feather flock together maxim.

00:37:11.100 And this may not surprise you, Megan, but for short term mating, if I'm just looking for a short term dalliance,

00:37:17.820 then the opposites attract maxim might be operative, right?

00:37:21.820 I may be introverted and sexually restrained.

00:37:25.160 You may be the exact opposite.

00:37:26.880 That might get me out of my shell.

00:37:28.420 And the fact that we are opposites might result in me having a more enriching encounter with you,

00:37:33.640 at least in a short term context.

00:37:34.980 But for long term mating, if you want to increase the probability of your marriage being successful,

00:37:41.620 the research is overwhelmingly in support of the birds of a feather flock together maxim.

00:37:48.160 Now, the next question might be, but you flock together on which attributes?

00:37:52.540 Is it your eye color?

00:37:54.040 Is it your hair color?

00:37:54.900 Of course, when we're talking about birds of a feather flocking together,

00:37:58.380 or in the language of evolutionary psychology, it's called assortative mating.

00:38:02.800 We're assorting on like traits.

00:38:05.140 We're talking about shared life mindsets, shared belief systems, shared values.

00:38:11.460 You greatly increase your chances.

00:38:13.800 It doesn't guarantee you're going to be happy, but boy, statistically speaking,

00:38:17.680 do you increase your chances if you assort with someone who shares values with you.

00:38:22.720 So that's already, you know, a good strategy if you wish to increase the likelihood of you being

00:38:28.100 of having a successful marriage.

00:38:31.360 I love this saying.

00:38:33.220 They say that men marry women thinking that they'll never change and they do.

00:38:38.000 And women marry men thinking that they won't change or that they that they will change and they don't.

00:38:45.440 Yeah, right.

00:38:46.560 But you're you make the point in the book that love does not conquer all.

00:38:50.140 Like you have to be smart.

00:38:51.140 And if you have like profound religious differences or severe differences in your backgrounds or

00:38:57.800 your approach to problem solving and power structure and all that, don't do it.

00:39:02.400 It's not going to work out.

00:39:03.540 Put yourself in the in the shoes of the parents of arranged marriages and make it an executive

00:39:09.380 decision on some of these things.

00:39:10.580 Like it's I know I'm feeling lustful for this person right now, but I have to think about

00:39:14.300 how that lust can grow into long term love.

00:39:17.160 And as you point out the book, connection.

00:39:20.300 Indeed.

00:39:20.940 Look, I don't know if you know who this is and not to sound as though I'm a publicist, but

00:39:26.780 Helen Fisher, who's a evolutionary anthropologist whom I've had the pleasure of interacting with

00:39:31.760 in the past, is arguably the the guru of studying the the neuroanatomy of romantic relationships.

00:39:39.500 And so the the the the the response that you get when you're in the lustful phase of your

00:39:46.660 relationship, when you're getting the butterflies, when you're getting the knot in your stomach,

00:39:50.360 that's not going to last 20 years into your marriage.

00:39:53.840 Not and that's not to be cynical.

00:39:55.260 And that doesn't mean that you won't be sexually attracted to your partner 20 years later.

00:39:59.200 But it it changes.

00:40:01.460 Right.

00:40:01.720 And so the dopamine hits that come typically with the pursuit of lust.

00:40:07.040 Right.

00:40:07.640 Catering to lust is what you want is the serotonin.

00:40:11.460 If we're going to use an endocrinological or a neurotransmitting framework, it's the serotonin,

00:40:17.700 which is contentment.

00:40:19.280 Right.

00:40:19.440 It's it's you and Doug sitting together and saying, you know, we're we're on the right path.

00:40:23.880 We're doing a good job.

00:40:25.080 We've raised three great kids.

00:40:26.840 We are simpatico.

00:40:28.020 We see the world through similar, you know, a similar prism.

00:40:31.940 And so if you can identify those traits on which you should assert.

00:40:36.800 So in my case, for example, I didn't marry my wife because she, too, was Lebanese.

00:40:41.380 I mean, in other words, I didn't set out with a a priori decisional rule that says I only

00:40:46.500 will marry a Lebanese woman.

00:40:47.960 But the fact that we met, the fact that we had a lot of this cultural compass that was

00:40:53.540 identical, it just made it easier than if I married an Anglo-Saxon girl.

00:40:59.520 Right.

00:40:59.860 So I'll give you a quick example.

00:41:01.420 The first day that I met her parents.

00:41:04.380 I mean, literally the first time.

00:41:07.860 So, you know, Lebanese people, we play a lot of backgammon.

00:41:11.300 And so I looked at her dad and I said, OK, Mr.

00:41:14.640 So-and-so, if I win the game, I get to keep your daughter.

00:41:19.440 And he said, OK, let's do it.

00:41:20.980 And so we played and I won.

00:41:23.100 Now, he now jokes.

00:41:24.260 He said, well, you seem like a really nice guy.

00:41:26.080 So I let you win.

00:41:27.580 I don't know about that.

00:41:28.660 But the fact that we can have those kinds of humorous moments.

00:41:32.420 Right.

00:41:32.980 You know, I didn't get someone who graduated from Wellesley who said to me, how dare you

00:41:38.600 be playing for the hand of my daughter?

00:41:40.620 That's patriarchy.

00:41:42.040 That's sexist.

00:41:42.820 He understood my joke.

00:41:44.000 He understood our language.

00:41:45.220 And we can kind of quickly see that we were likely to get along.

00:41:49.100 And so, yeah, birds of a feather do flock together.

00:41:52.260 And check out the family.

00:41:53.640 I have interviewed Helen and she she made a point that you just raised earlier, which

00:41:58.940 is, you know, about the sexual interludes, about how like that is a physical response

00:42:05.620 that will bring you happiness.

00:42:07.440 I know people are tired.

00:42:09.600 Ladies, I get it.

00:42:10.940 You're tired.

00:42:11.860 The men have the drive, I think, pretty much most of the time.

00:42:14.260 But do it for if you're not going to do it for your partner, do it for yourself.

00:42:17.740 You actually will feel better.

00:42:19.000 It's a it's a hormonal response that it's like a gift you give to your spouse and to

00:42:24.920 yourself all in one.

00:42:25.900 Not to mention it, of course, builds intimacy.

00:42:28.780 She had a lot of strong thoughts on that on the subject of the job.

00:42:33.960 Sure.

00:42:35.780 How realistic is that?

00:42:37.080 Right.

00:42:37.260 A lot of people don't have the luxury of choosing a job that, you know, they look forward to

00:42:43.020 doing.

00:42:43.460 It's like they got to get out there and they got to work on the toilets and that's that

00:42:48.160 pays the bills and that's good.

00:42:49.560 But like they don't they don't enjoy it.

00:42:51.740 Can they be happy notwithstanding spending eight to 10 hours a day doing something that

00:42:55.760 is just mediocre for them?

00:42:57.760 Right.

00:42:58.080 So before I answer this, the second this part, let me first sort of explain the general

00:43:03.420 framework.

00:43:04.000 What I argue in terms of, you know, which profession is going to bring you happiness is I basically

00:43:09.660 say there are two factors that are crucially important.

00:43:12.140 And I understand that the person who cleans the toilet may not be able to do that.

00:43:15.780 I'll address that in a second, Megan.

00:43:17.520 Number one, you want to be able, if possible, to pursue a profession that allows you to

00:43:23.140 instantiate your creative impulse.

00:43:25.240 So I can be a chef and be creative.

00:43:27.360 I can be an architect.

00:43:28.360 I could be a podcaster.

00:43:30.200 You know, I could be a playwright.

00:43:31.720 I could be an author.

00:43:32.520 There are many, many ways by which the need to immerse yourself in creativity can manifest

00:43:39.640 itself.

00:43:40.140 So that's one.

00:43:40.700 The second important attribute in terms of finding the right profession is if you can

00:43:46.780 pick a job that grants you maximal temporal freedom.

00:43:50.000 And I understand that it's not very realistic for most people to be able to shoot for that.

00:43:54.200 But temporal freedom means let's contrast, say, a factory worker who is given the exact

00:44:00.620 time that he or she is allowed to go on a bathroom break and a lunch break.

00:44:05.640 Everything is mandated by someone else versus in my case, or I think perhaps yours, where

00:44:11.720 much of the day I could immerse myself in very serious work.

00:44:15.840 But it depends on my mood, right?

00:44:18.800 If I feel like going to a cafe now and work on the next section of my book, I can.

00:44:22.440 If I feel like jogging, I can.

00:44:24.160 So just having that temporal freedom allows me to really, you know, flex my creative muscle.

00:44:29.760 But now to your question, for most people, they may not be able.

00:44:33.600 I mean, life is that I've got to put food on the table and I'm an insurance adjuster.

00:44:37.940 And yes, I would have loved to be an artist, but I can't do it because I've got real responsibilities.

00:44:42.220 Well, then how about when you finish work, instead of spending four hours watching television,

00:44:48.980 you sign up at the Adult Life Learning Center and take that ceramics course that you'd always

00:44:54.660 wanted to pursue ceramics.

00:44:56.300 So there are still ways by which I could implement many of the edicts that I talk about in choosing

00:45:01.900 the right profession, even if it's not in the context of my professional life.

00:45:06.280 Ideally, if I can find that in my profession, I'm really winning.

00:45:09.900 But even if I can't, I think there's a way for me to still implement some of those prescriptions.

00:45:15.780 Abigail Finan, I would like more temporal freedom.

00:45:18.240 Please factor that into your scheduling of my life.

00:45:23.340 Here's an easy one.

00:45:24.620 I love it.

00:45:25.340 And it's easy-ish, easier for some of us than for others.

00:45:29.620 Get a dog.

00:45:30.860 Talk about that.

00:45:31.520 I love your Belgian shepherds.

00:45:33.000 We had a Belgian shepherd growing up.

00:45:35.180 So I love it.

00:45:35.580 You did?

00:45:36.440 Yeah, we did.

00:45:37.220 The actual Belgian, not the German, the Belgian.

00:45:39.900 So I relate to you on this, and you are a big fan of the dog.

00:45:43.960 Oh, my God.

00:45:44.700 This is Samra.

00:45:46.400 Samra regrettably passed away five years ago.

00:45:49.000 Samra in Arabic means dark one, because as you can see, her black mask, her face has a

00:45:54.060 black marking.

00:45:55.100 We also had Amar, who in Arabic, he was the male.

00:45:59.720 Amar in Arabic means moon.

00:46:01.300 It also means it's an adjective for great beauty.

00:46:03.700 You're beautiful like the moon.

00:46:04.840 And I tell you, Megan, I live my life with two enduring fears, at least when I have Belgians.

00:46:12.800 Number one, I call it the dark cloud, which is I'm constantly obsessing about their short

00:46:18.180 lifespans and that one day they're going to die.

00:46:20.640 So that, you know, just drives me crazy.

00:46:23.860 The second one, which we may or may not talk about since we're talking about happiness,

00:46:27.180 is I'm always fearful of my children losing their innocence.

00:46:33.420 And I can tell you that now that my daughter is 14 years old, I'm losing that battle because,

00:46:40.200 you know, when they're very, very young, it garners you great solace to be protected in

00:46:47.400 their innocence, right?

00:46:48.200 So I go out there into the ugly world and I pick fight with someone on social media and

00:46:52.780 I write an article about some idiot.

00:46:55.120 But then I come home to the, you know, sanctuary of my home and I've got these two beautiful,

00:47:00.300 innocent children.

00:47:01.080 I've got these majestic Belgian shepherds.

00:47:02.960 And so I've always been fearful that they will die.

00:47:06.840 And I've always been fearful that my children will grow up.

00:47:10.080 Regrettably, that's an inevitable part of life.

00:47:12.400 But yes, one very direct way to happiness is get a dog.

00:47:16.780 All that the dog wants to do is take care of you, protect you.

00:47:21.280 All they want back is give me food and make some time to play with me.

00:47:25.900 That's a pretty good deal.

00:47:28.140 Now, some dogs are easier than others.

00:47:31.440 My audience is aware.

00:47:32.660 I know about your dog.

00:47:34.160 Yeah, I've had some troubles.

00:47:36.460 But can I tell you, even with my very troublesome little dog, and he's not little, he's like 75

00:47:43.160 pounds now, I agree with everything you just said.

00:47:47.060 He brings me way more joy than he does consternation.

00:47:51.100 He is like the sweetest dog.

00:47:53.380 He's such, he gets up, he wants to hug you, you know, and I know you're not supposed to

00:47:56.940 let him get up there.

00:47:58.920 And like when you're on the couch or on a chair, but he actually puts his paws over your

00:48:03.200 shoulder and like nuzzles in and you hold him and you're hugging and like, how can I

00:48:08.280 be mad?

00:48:08.840 It's sweet, sweet strut.

00:48:10.040 Oh, stop it.

00:48:10.800 No, that's bad.

00:48:11.680 Stop it.

00:48:12.140 He's off to do something terrible.

00:48:13.580 Anyway, he does bring me, even my naughty dog, so much joy.

00:48:17.860 And so if you can afford it and take the time to take care of them, I agree with you.

00:48:23.540 And by the way, I mean, and of course they give you the companionship and all that kind

00:48:27.200 of stuff, but even in a very pragmatic way, the fact that you have to take them for walks,

00:48:32.460 right?

00:48:32.720 I mean, our Belgians, I mean, I'm delighted to hear that you had a Belgian, you know, half

00:48:37.580 of the battle with Belgian shepherds is I call it energy management, right?

00:48:41.640 These guys are like turbo engines.

00:48:44.660 If you don't take them out constantly playing, running, walking vigorously, they would, I mean,

00:48:51.040 they're very, very hard to handle, right?

00:48:53.260 You've got to exhaust them.

00:48:54.920 And so that forces you in the, you know, winter of Montreal to say, it doesn't matter

00:49:01.820 if it's minus 20, these two crazy Belgians are looking at me.

00:49:06.040 And if I don't go out for a 45 brisk walk, there'll be trouble to be had.

00:49:11.480 And so it forces you to be physical.

00:49:14.020 It does.

00:49:15.380 Having a dog gets you out there in the world in a way where you definitely otherwise wouldn't

00:49:19.140 be.

00:49:19.940 And then you see other dog owners or you see like your neighbors and you have, even if

00:49:23.660 it's just a momentary hello, you come home feeling a little bit more social, a little

00:49:27.540 bit more exposed to other people in a good way.

00:49:29.820 I agree with that.

00:49:33.900 All right.

00:49:34.360 So let's talk about action.

00:49:37.100 We touched on the topic of sexual satisfaction, but I would like to find out more about gorilla

00:49:44.180 and chimpanzee balls because somehow they have something to do with our happiness.

00:49:50.360 Yes.

00:49:50.880 Yes.

00:49:51.340 Well, there.

00:49:52.120 So let me, let me put what you just said in context, because some of the listeners may

00:49:56.780 say, what are we talking about testicles?

00:49:58.820 Uh, so at one point in one of the chapters, I'm talking about variety seeking, the importance

00:50:04.040 of variety seeking in life.

00:50:05.580 And my point there is to argue that in some cases, variety seeking is condoned.

00:50:10.280 In other cases, of course, it's, it's, it's not condoned quite as clearly.

00:50:13.700 So I talk about sexual variety seeking, food variety seeking, exercise variety seeking,

00:50:18.460 intellectual variety seeking.

00:50:19.600 And so your question fits under the sexual variety seeking.

00:50:24.000 And there, what I am speaking about is that while of course, men on average, and this finding,

00:50:30.400 by the way, is one of the most robust findings you can find in, in, in, in the behavioral sciences,

00:50:35.520 while men certainly have a greater penchant for sexual variety seeking than women do.

00:50:42.360 That is not to say that women are these chaste Victorian prudes, because there's all sorts

00:50:48.820 of, uh, converging lines of evidence that suggest that women are also very much into, at least

00:50:54.740 have the drive for, uh, uh, sexual variety seeking.

00:50:58.520 And so what I do in the book is I describe several of those lines of evidence.

00:51:03.040 So for example, before I get to the testicles, uh, number one, uh, uh, women are much more

00:51:09.180 likely to cheat on their regular partner, uh, when they are maximally fertile and they are

00:51:15.120 less likely to insist on the guy that they're cheating with using contraception, which you

00:51:20.800 would think should be the opposite, right?

00:51:22.440 And that, by the way, is called the shopping for, uh, shopping for good genes strategy.

00:51:27.760 You are literally trying to get better genes from another male who typically is, has a superior

00:51:34.120 phenotype to your regular partner.

00:51:35.740 And hopefully the, the chump at home would actually think that that's his child, right?

00:51:40.640 So that's one mating strategy that women have evolved, uh, to your point about testicles.

00:51:46.720 It turns out that across primates, the size of the male's testicles is an adaptation to

00:51:54.760 how much promiscuity the females engage in within that species.

00:51:59.480 So let's, let's look at several species.

00:52:02.860 Mountain gorillas have what's called a polygynous mating arrangement, meaning there is one dominant

00:52:08.560 male that restricts sexual access to a whole bunch of females.

00:52:12.620 Now, once in a while, these females will go on the side behind the bushes, but he really

00:52:17.020 tries to be very sexually territorial over them.

00:52:19.640 So there isn't much sperm competition within their mating system.

00:52:23.460 And therefore mountain gorillas, despite the fact that they are these gigantic muscular

00:52:27.880 specimen, these really impressive specimen actually have very small testicles.

00:52:32.880 On the other hand, chimpanzees have their walking testicles, basically their whole

00:52:38.540 body is there to support these massive testicles, precisely because females engage in rampant

00:52:46.000 or geastic Caligula-like sex with everybody.

00:52:49.880 And therefore there's a lot of sperm competition.

00:52:52.200 Now, how does that really, they're sluts.

00:52:54.840 Those chips are sluts.

00:52:56.060 I always knew it.

00:52:56.960 So now where do the, where do humans fit on that scale?

00:53:00.360 Well, I'm sorry to tell the men who are listening to this show that we, we meaning humans, tend

00:53:08.020 to be closer to chimps than we are to, to mountain gorillas.

00:53:13.400 Meaning that my female ancestors and yours, Megan, would have been quite likely to have had

00:53:21.260 multiple sexual partners within a 72 hour period.

00:53:25.120 Can I just say one more thing before I turn it back to you?

00:53:27.080 So Robin Baker, who has since retired, wrote a book, I think it was in the mid nineties

00:53:33.820 called Sperm Wars, where he talked about what's called the sperm competition hypothesis, where

00:53:39.040 he argued that there are really three phenotypes of spermatozoa.

00:53:43.020 There is the classic spermatozoa, which is the fertilizer, the one that we were all used

00:53:48.000 to seeing depicted.

00:53:49.220 But then he argued that there are two other times, other types of spermatozoa in a man's

00:53:53.840 ejaculate.

00:53:54.800 Number one, there is a type of sperm that's, it's called a killer sperm that simply goes

00:54:00.100 inside the reproductive tract of a woman looking for other men's sperm to kill.

00:54:05.120 It's not looking for the egg.

00:54:07.140 And another kind of sperm is called the blockers, which is literally standing guard, making sure

00:54:15.200 that another man's sperm doesn't enter the reproductive tract.

00:54:18.400 Now, given that a, given that sperm is only viable for 72 hours within a woman's reproductive

00:54:25.660 tract, that means that if men have evolved that chemical weaponry, the likelihood that

00:54:31.280 our female ancestors mated with two or more men within a 72 hour period would have been

00:54:36.880 pretty high.

00:54:37.660 So it's not just men who seek sexual variety seeking, women do it too.

00:54:42.720 We're sluts too.

00:54:44.200 We're sluts.

00:54:44.680 Chimps are sluts, the only ones who are not sluts are the gorillas.

00:54:50.180 God bless.

00:54:51.300 That's amazing.

00:54:52.940 So, but also alarming because if, if we need variety, male and female needs like variety

00:55:00.100 and yet we're supposed to be a monogamous culture.

00:55:04.280 We, we marry, we marry for life.

00:55:06.580 Does that mean everyone's going to cheat or, cause you mentioned, uh, Helen Fisher.

00:55:12.080 I remember she, she said the secret to keeping love alive in a long-term marriage is, and

00:55:17.540 I quote novelty, novelty, novelty, like just keep doing within the, within the, within the

00:55:23.620 marriage union.

00:55:24.700 Yeah.

00:55:24.960 Yeah.

00:55:25.100 And not even, it doesn't even necessarily have to be in the bedroom, but just like within

00:55:28.220 the marriage, you could take a cooking lesson together or you could go skydiving together.

00:55:31.600 You could take a walk in a newfound, you know, set of woods together.

00:55:35.420 But if you want to bring it into the bedrooms, bedroom, so much the better.

00:55:39.380 Exactly right.

00:55:40.180 That's why, uh, blonde wigs exist.

00:55:43.340 If you're a brunette and brunette wigs exist, you're a blonde.

00:55:46.900 I mean, I say that somewhat facetiously, but I mean, that's speaking exactly to Helen's

00:55:50.360 point, which is we always have to remain playful, uh, both in our couple outside and

00:55:55.840 inside the bedroom.

00:55:56.660 That's one way to try to forestall, uh, our desire for sexual variety.

00:56:01.580 And look, it's a conundrum, uh, Megan, because humans have both evolved the desire for long-term

00:56:08.100 coupling.

00:56:08.880 Why?

00:56:09.480 Because we are officially biologically, we are a bi-parental species precisely because

00:56:14.320 it takes a very, very long time.

00:56:16.940 There's a long juvenility period before our children become sexually mature.

00:56:21.900 So both parents, the man and the woman have to be bonded long enough together to see their

00:56:28.560 children through that reproductive window.

00:56:31.320 And so one of the ways by which we do that is that we've evolved all of the mechanisms

00:56:35.740 associated with long-term coupling, romantic love, and so on.

00:56:38.700 But as I mentioned earlier, we've also evolved a deep desire to stray.

00:56:43.840 That doesn't mean that we will all stray.

00:56:46.320 That's the action, but we will all certainly have the thought and desire of straying.

00:56:51.360 Whether you instantiate it or not depends on your moral compass, I guess.

00:56:55.820 I mean, as soon as you stray, it's like these quote unquote open marriages are doomed.

00:57:01.320 That's just the first step to divorce.

00:57:03.580 Nobody has an open marriage that works.

00:57:05.960 I mean, I don't know.

00:57:06.800 I have no statistics on it.

00:57:08.280 That's just my gut feeling.

00:57:08.940 I agree, by the way.

00:57:09.740 No, you're exactly right.

00:57:11.180 Forgive me for interrupting you.

00:57:12.600 Although it's much more of a death nail.

00:57:16.520 So if you look at when a man cheats on a woman or a woman cheats on a man, the stats of the

00:57:23.780 relationship ending are not symmetric.

00:57:25.960 If a woman cheats on a man, it's about 90% guarantee that it's the end of the relationship.

00:57:32.460 If the other way around, it's about 30%.

00:57:35.380 So it's still very serious infraction, but women can be quite more forgiving.

00:57:39.720 And I think we might have briefly touched on this in an earlier conversation we had on your show.

00:57:45.260 Again, that's not because women are more loving and forgiving.

00:57:49.040 The evolutionary calculus is very clear.

00:57:51.860 When a woman cheats on a man, it triggers the most fundamental threat to a man's psyche,

00:57:57.100 which is paternity uncertainty, right?

00:57:59.760 We didn't evolve in an era where we had DNA paternity testing and Maury Povich show so that

00:58:05.860 we can check whether the kid is mine or not, right?

00:58:09.020 And therefore, if you cheat on me, we're done because I'm not going to be investing

00:58:13.980 in a kid for the next 18 years, not knowing if he's mine or if it was the sexy Greek gardener

00:58:18.900 who sired him.

00:58:20.300 The other way, while it's still very serious, it's not nearly as much of a death blow.

00:58:26.100 And for women, the greater threat, and I think we did discuss this last time I was on your

00:58:30.760 show, is emotional infidelity.

00:58:32.480 If I develop a bond with another woman, that actually might be a lot more threatening to

00:58:39.680 you than if I have a one-time sexual dalliance with someone that I'll never see again.

00:58:44.880 Yes, we wound up in the New York Post because I said something like, I'd much rather find

00:58:50.880 out that Doug had a one-night stand with somebody than that he was laughing with another woman

00:58:54.720 on me.

00:58:55.500 I don't want to see emotional bonding by Doug and any other woman.

00:59:00.860 And then Doug said, his friends texted him saying, hall pass.

00:59:05.340 No, no, it isn't.

00:59:07.720 That was a funny moment.

00:59:09.580 It is not a regret of mine, however, because as you know from our earlier discussions, I

00:59:13.180 don't have, I'm just not a person who's got regrets.

00:59:15.880 I don't know.

00:59:16.480 I've really been struggling to think of, do I have one that I could really point to that?

00:59:21.180 I, I just, I don't, maybe I just have a bad memory, but I really don't have regrets.

00:59:25.580 And maybe this is why I am, despite my natural curmudgeonly news cynicism, relatively happy

00:59:33.840 because regret is a, is a buzzkill.

00:59:38.260 Indeed.

00:59:38.880 And by the way, I loved when, I think it was maybe a month or two ago, I had posted something

00:59:43.860 about something regretful.

00:59:45.500 And then you came in and said, I already thought we covered that, God.

00:59:49.520 We've been over this, God.

00:59:51.180 And we've been over this guy.

00:59:52.820 And as you probably know, there are several passages in my book that specifically quote

00:59:58.720 interactions that we've had.

01:00:00.020 So you have definitely left a eternal impression on me, certainly as immortalized in the book.

01:00:06.560 Look, regret, actually the, the pioneer of the study of psychology of regret is one of

01:00:12.280 my former psychology professors in my, in my PhD.

01:00:15.700 His name is Thomas Gilevich.

01:00:17.480 And he basically argued that there are two sources of regret, Megan.

01:00:22.540 There is regret due to action and regret due to inaction.

01:00:26.720 So regret due to action.

01:00:28.440 I regret that I cheated on my wife and now my marriage is over.

01:00:32.160 So I did something.

01:00:33.140 I committed an act and infraction regret due to inaction is I really regret that I became

01:00:39.940 a pediatrician only because my dad is a pediatrician.

01:00:43.240 The reality is I always wanted to pursue my interest in, in art and, in architecture.

01:00:47.960 And, and it turns out, Megan, that towards the end of your life, when you look back at your

01:00:53.620 life, the most looming regrets are those related to the, what if, so the, the regrets due to

01:01:00.520 inaction.

01:01:01.400 And so I'm, I'm delighted to hear that you don't have any such looming regrets because it means

01:01:06.820 that you've always made the optimal decision at the time that you made it.

01:01:12.260 Hmm.

01:01:12.780 I mean, yeah, I guess so.

01:01:14.560 I just like, who's got time?

01:01:15.840 You know, they, they always say live in the moment and I, I know people who go to workshops

01:01:20.120 every other month on how to live in the moment.

01:01:23.000 I don't know.

01:01:23.740 Is that a skill you can learn?

01:01:24.780 For me, I just do.

01:01:26.460 And I think one of the ways I just do effectively is I'm busy, like stay busy.

01:01:32.540 And then you don't really have a lot of time to worry about yesterday.

01:01:35.920 Right.

01:01:36.600 Uh, I mean, look, but there is value in feeling regret.

01:01:41.360 So, so they are, think of regret as either forward looking or backward looking.

01:01:47.640 So if I'm 85 and I say, I really regret that I never pursued my interests in basketball.

01:01:54.120 Well, there's really nothing that I can do about that because I can't suddenly, you know,

01:01:58.560 join the NBA.

01:01:59.520 Right.

01:01:59.720 Uh, but on the other hand, there's what's called anticipatory regret.

01:02:03.920 This is where you make decisions now in the moment in such a way that you minimize the

01:02:10.780 likelihood of experiencing regret in the future.

01:02:13.900 So Jeff Bezos has a famous quote, which, which I cite in the book where he basically said that

01:02:20.120 the reason why he left his secure, well-paying job, whatever that job was, and went off and

01:02:27.380 started this really risky proposition called Amazon is that he didn't want in the future

01:02:34.020 to look back and say, I regret that I never did it.

01:02:37.280 So he was, uh, if you like, under the purview of anticipatory regret.

01:02:41.700 So contrary to what you said, I think that there are moments where having the calculus of

01:02:47.260 regret can be beneficial if it's forward looking.

01:02:50.320 That makes sense.

01:02:51.660 It's the, it's the serenity prayer kind of, right?

01:02:54.240 The, uh, God grant me the serenity to change the things I can, the courage to, how does

01:03:00.680 it go to, to, to not mess with the ones I can't and the wisdom to know the difference.

01:03:05.780 That's not it exactly, but I'm close.

01:03:07.460 No, but I, yes, you're exactly right.

01:03:09.040 That, that, that's right.

01:03:11.000 Um, so, all right.

01:03:12.240 So for the people out there who are now thinking, where do I begin?

01:03:15.400 You know, like, all right, so I got to get a dog.

01:03:17.280 I got to get a good partner.

01:03:18.580 I got to have more sex, um, and have it be kind of kinky after we've been together for

01:03:24.020 20 years.

01:03:26.380 These are, these are the basic takeaways and how much of an uptick could they get if they're

01:03:31.200 running around right now at a three or a four on a scale of one to 10, how high could they

01:03:36.600 go?

01:03:38.120 Well, it's, I mean, it's tough to quantify it exactly, right?

01:03:41.200 Do they also suffer from, uh, you know, some debilitating disease or not?

01:03:45.480 So it's hard to give an exact number, but look, it's, it's a multifactorial proposition,

01:03:50.760 right?

01:03:50.960 There are several elements that contribute either to your misery or to your happiness.

01:03:56.840 The more of those prescriptive strategies that you implement, the, the more you're likely

01:04:02.000 to move from your three to some higher number.

01:04:04.700 I don't know what that number will be, but it will certainly be higher than three, which

01:04:08.560 by the way, this is kind of a concept called chunking.

01:04:11.620 So when I, when I lost a lot of weight, if, if I looked at, well, you know, I need to

01:04:16.980 lose 50, 60, 70 pounds.

01:04:19.680 That seems very daunting.

01:04:21.200 It's very hard for me to imagine ever being able to be successful at this grand task.

01:04:26.680 But if I chunk it down to daily wins, right?

01:04:29.960 So every day, one of three things can happen.

01:04:33.000 My weight can go up.

01:04:34.660 My weight can stay the same, or my weight can go down.

01:04:37.780 Even if it's a micro of an ounce, if it goes down, I won that day.

01:04:43.240 Well, guess what, Megan, if I can have a string of consecutive days for say 18 months, where

01:04:49.800 every single one of those days I was on the negative end, I lost some weight.

01:04:55.040 I wake up one day and I'm 86 pounds lighter as I was.

01:04:58.780 And so again, I don't know if we can go from a three to an eight with only one, you know,

01:05:04.260 one decision, but make all of the right choices, adopt all of the right mindsets.

01:05:10.320 And what I can guarantee you is that you'll go from three to some much higher number.

01:05:15.420 It's worth it.

01:05:16.340 Okay.

01:05:16.540 I looked it up.

01:05:17.180 God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the

01:05:21.480 things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

01:05:25.000 That is just, that really is full of wisdom.

01:05:27.960 That quote right there, that does bring it home and helps avoid things like regret.

01:05:32.060 But it's called the sad, like double A, like Gad's last name, sad truth about happiness.

01:05:39.360 You want to buy it because you want to be happier.

01:05:41.260 You want to buy it because it's a fun read because Gad reveals some fun personal stories

01:05:44.740 that will make you laugh out loud.

01:05:46.160 And because we want to support Gad, who is fighting the good fight, as I said, in the midst

01:05:50.900 of the left wing belly up in Canada, no less.

01:05:54.300 They're even worse than we are.

01:05:56.240 And he is never deterred and not sad, not sad at all about any of it.

01:06:00.480 Great to see you, my friend.

01:06:01.300 Good luck with the book.

01:06:02.920 Thank you so much, Megan.

01:06:03.920 Great to see you too.

01:06:04.840 Cheers.

01:06:05.480 All right.

01:06:05.900 Don't forget the sad truth about happiness.

01:06:08.420 Eight secrets for leading the good life.

01:06:10.820 Get it right now and get happier.

01:06:12.620 I wanted to tell you that tomorrow we have got a true crime story you are not going to

01:06:17.460 want to miss.

01:06:18.680 Have you heard about the new hit podcast, Scamanda?

01:06:23.800 My family and I listened to the whole thing during our recent vacation.

01:06:27.660 When we went to France, we had all this downtime in the car going from, you know, A to B.

01:06:31.920 And the whole family listened to it.

01:06:33.680 We were like, we were talking like, could we get another Scamanda in?

01:06:36.680 Do we have time?

01:06:37.600 Well, tomorrow we have the host and the producer of the show.

01:06:39.940 Her name is Charlie Webster.

01:06:41.460 And she's going to take us through the whole incredible story.

01:06:44.400 She's British.

01:06:44.980 That's why I'm talking like this, though.

01:06:46.100 She's now an American.

01:06:46.680 And she's going to reveal some never before heard details.

01:06:52.720 You will enjoy this.

01:06:54.260 We'll talk then.

01:06:57.800 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:07:00.060 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - July 26, 2023

Happiness in Relationships and Work, and Dangers of Social Media, with Gad Saad ｜ Ep. 595

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