The Megyn Kelly Show - August 20, 2026


Harry and Meghan FLEE America, with Maureen Callahan, and Bombshell New Karmelo Anthony Texts, with Aronberg, Merchant, and Aidala | Ep. 1383


Episode Stats


Length

2 hours and 19 minutes

Words per minute

186.72

Word count

26,075

Sentence count

1,444

Harmful content

Misogyny

105

sentences flagged

Toxicity

85

sentences flagged

Hate speech

38

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
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00:00:54.520 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.
00:01:06.220 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Today, two important
00:01:11.400 self-deportations that can unite all of America. This is the first thing we've been able to agree 0.53
00:01:18.780 upon in over a decade. Meghan and Harry are leaving. Praise Jesus. They're going. Get back
00:01:27.900 to the UK. Go become somebody else's problem. We're sick of you. We have enough weirdos, 0.95
00:01:34.640 self-narcissistic, obsessed Americans already. The country's full. It's saturated. Go home, 0.99
00:01:43.200 Harry. We never wanted you here to begin with. If we had to have one of the kids of
00:01:48.300 Prince Charles, then Prince Charles, we all wanted William. No one wanted you. I don't know
00:01:54.460 how we got stuck with Meghan anyway. We had safely ejected her to Canada. Then you came along, 0.99
00:01:59.660 took her over to UK. That was fine. It was a hot mess for you, but we were still living our
00:02:03.320 beautiful lives. And now finally, she's going back to the UK. And we all know why. There's
00:02:10.100 many speculations out there about why, but I'll tell you why. Because they can't stand not being
00:02:16.140 adored and famous and welcomed everywhere and getting the reservations they want and the
00:02:22.660 attention they want. We want privacy. We all know it's a lie. And they think that they'll have an
00:02:28.660 elevated status over in the UK and that so will their children. They want those children to be
00:02:33.540 brought up as the little prince and princess they are. And they know that the British public
00:02:39.780 actually, you know, believes in that crap. Unlike us, no one here is treating Archie and Lilibet 0.98
00:02:46.860 like royalty. No one. We don't do royalty here in America. We fought a whole war to get away from
00:02:53.300 those people. And these children are not going to be treated as anything special. Sorry, especially
00:03:00.580 in Montecito, where if you're the child of George Clooney, you're closer to royalty than if you're
00:03:07.160 Meghan Markle's kid. No one gives two dams. So that this is my own belief. This is why they're
00:03:13.820 going. They're going back to a place where they can feel special and they can get reservations
00:03:20.520 at any restaurant and the tabloid attention will pick back up because it's withered down to an
00:03:28.760 arid dryness now. And they can't stand it. She can't stand it, but he can't stand it either.
00:03:36.020 He's just as petty and small as she is.
00:03:38.200 You know, yesterday on the show,
00:03:40.040 yeah, it was yesterday, right?
00:03:40.860 It was a Wednesday.
00:03:41.820 Like all the days are blending.
00:03:43.200 We had on Doug Brunt.
00:03:44.800 He was our second hour.
00:03:46.000 And if you are listening to the podcast
00:03:47.480 or watching this on YouTube,
00:03:48.460 you didn't see it because it was something we do
00:03:50.880 in August every year just for the SiriusXM listeners
00:03:53.420 because we have a great relationship with SiriusXM.
00:03:55.680 We love them.
00:03:56.200 And so we give them like a special feature once a year
00:03:59.660 where we do a series that's just for the SiriusXM audience.
00:04:03.940 And by the way,
00:04:04.420 if you're not subscribed to SiriusXM, you should totally do it. I love SiriusXM. I listen to it
00:04:07.960 all the time. It's got so many great things. The app is good. If you miss this show, if you want
00:04:12.940 to keep up even on cable, like see what the weirdos are saying, you can always pull up
00:04:16.100 somebody's show. They've got virtually all of them on there. Anyway, it's a great app.
00:04:20.540 And our Get Closer series yesterday featured Doug. And I love introducing people to Doug
00:04:27.000 because Doug is great. He's smart. He's charming. He's just easy to be around and to listen to
00:04:34.420 two, not to mention a look at, and I adore him. And you can tell he's a great guy when you talk
00:04:40.500 to him. Like, I need only introduce you to Doug for you to love Doug. These two, I can't imagine
00:04:48.420 what it's like when they have to introduce the other to somebody who doesn't know them. Because
00:04:53.680 of course, they're thinking like, oh my God, Prince Harry. And then they meet him and see
00:04:57.540 what a hot mess he is. And by the way, he doesn't even have proper grammar. You'd think a Prince of
00:05:02.860 England would be able to, you know, do subject verb agreement. He can't. He's actually kind of
00:05:07.100 an idiot, which is ironic because they apparently are sending their children back to the UK because 1.00
00:05:13.220 they want them to go to UK schools because Harry's so enamored with the education he had. 1.00
00:05:17.260 I think you need to rethink that, Harry. And can you imagine introducing somebody to Meghan Markle
00:05:23.840 as your wife who's bullied everybody, who's nasty, who snaps at her own friends, as we saw in that
00:05:28.680 with love Megan show. So it's like these, it's only a matter of time before this relationship
00:05:34.060 is over. We all know that. And, um, now they're going to be the problem of the UK friends. And
00:05:41.640 you know what? I, part of me, my heart goes out to them because they, they don't really deserve
00:05:44.780 this. They're already dealing with like a lunatic government that's cracking down on free speech.
00:05:48.760 The influx of radical Muslims who are trying to chastise them for wearing tank tops. I mean, 0.97
00:05:53.700 this is a lot. They've already had to deal with a lot. The King's got cancer. Princess Kate had
00:05:57.740 cancer. Um, they don't need this other form of cancer coming back to the UK. Why they should 1.00
00:06:04.000 go back to Canada. That would be a solution we could all live with. Okay. That's my initial 1.00
00:06:09.720 take on this. Uh, we are in just a bit going to get to a packed Kelly's court on Lindsay Clancy
00:06:14.740 and what's happening in that trial where the, something's happening with the jury today.
00:06:18.920 We'll get into it. And also Hayden Panettiere, as we're learning that the DEA is now joining
00:06:24.520 the investigation of this case. Didn't I tell you? Didn't I tell you? That's what happened
00:06:29.160 right before the Matthew Perry people got charged. The DEA swooped in, and before we knew it,
00:06:35.080 four or five people got charged. That's where this is going. Guarantee it. Okay, but we're going to
00:06:41.300 get into first, before we do any of that, just a quick programming note here. We've got the latest
00:06:47.120 episode of our MK Live series. It's available on YouTube. For those who join our members only,
00:06:52.660 It's a new feature on YouTube that you can offer to your fans and you head out over to
00:06:57.240 youtube.com slash Megan Kelly.
00:06:59.780 Make sure you're on the YouTube app.
00:07:01.300 If you're using your phone, otherwise you won't see the little join button, but if you
00:07:05.280 use a YouTube app and then you will see the join button, you hit join to subscribe and
00:07:09.820 there you will get access to all sorts of exclusive content, including live discussions
00:07:14.840 with yours.
00:07:15.500 Truly, we're going to have one coming up on Monday night where we're going to get into
00:07:19.780 MK Confidential and other subjects, but we're going to have sort of our book club version
00:07:25.680 of MK Confidential where we talk about the crime series and your thoughts on the cases
00:07:31.000 and how they turned out.
00:07:33.640 Anyway, that's going to happen on Monday night.
00:07:34.920 We'll have more on that on Monday.
00:07:36.020 But you got to be a member.
00:07:37.000 Got to be a member of members only.
00:07:39.800 It's $6.99 a month.
00:07:41.500 It's not that much.
00:07:42.840 Whatever.
00:07:43.820 If you don't want to, you don't have to.
00:07:45.680 But I think it's actually going to be really fun.
00:07:46.880 We already had one of these Q&As.
00:07:48.420 It was really fun.
00:07:49.780 The tour documentary episode is called Backstage Pass, and that's exactly what it gives you, the inside look at what really happened behind the scenes on our tour last year.
00:08:00.660 It's quite a behind-the-scenes look, too.
00:08:04.120 Features a broken guitar, burns to yours truly and Abby, my assistant, and burns in more ways than one.
00:08:15.180 We also get into my attempts to mediate the hatred between Ben Shapiro and Tucker Carlson.
00:08:21.800 How'd that work out for me?
00:08:23.580 Here's what you're going to find, a little preview.
00:08:45.180 I feel like it brings me joy being on the road with her.
00:08:48.180 It would be a really good picture if we all got on the motorcycles. 0.65
00:08:52.180 I knew what my legs need to do on a motorcycle. 0.87
00:08:56.180 Megan did not. 1.00
00:08:58.180 She's like, ah!
00:08:59.180 Like, I see, like, the pain in her smile.
00:09:02.180 John and Rich was walking up the stairs with his guitar and fell.
00:09:06.180 My boot caught the last step and just bam! 0.99
00:09:09.180 Just snapped the head right off her.
00:09:11.180 So now we're in a scramble to try to find a replacement guitar.
00:09:15.180 My brother Pete, out there with you.
00:09:17.740 Pete, are you in the front pier? Right here.
00:09:19.600 He absolutely tortured me as a child.
00:09:22.400 My mother will tell you all the time,
00:09:24.180 we talk to your sister and have her slow down on the body language.
00:09:27.580 I do read all the emails.
00:09:29.140 I have a general understanding that while maybe 15% of the audience feels that way,
00:09:34.680 85% are with me.
00:09:38.060 She told me once at drinks that I wrote something bad about her.
00:09:42.260 and I said, oh my god, I feel terrible that I wrote that.
00:09:46.460 I can't believe it.
00:09:47.340 I really feel like my two brothers are arguing.
00:09:49.920 I'm not in politics to be friends with people.
00:09:52.400 Buzz off.
00:09:55.080 Yes.
00:09:55.840 I kind of gave up on forging a piece between them.
00:09:59.440 He's turned that away for us.
00:10:00.560 It was just so good to be with the people
00:10:04.500 that I spend two hours with every day.
00:10:06.860 A sea of reasonable right-wingers.
00:10:12.260 so many fun and some fraught moments in this episode it's going to be available right now
00:10:22.340 for subscribers of our mk members only so head on over to youtube.com slash megan kelly and join
00:10:27.700 now all right we want to bring in someone who you just saw in that little trailer
00:10:32.000 maureen callahan she's host of the hit show the nerve on our mk media podcast network
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00:11:03.520 to deter intruders before they cross the threshold.
00:11:07.120 I just love this so much.
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00:11:48.420 Maureen, this is huge news about these two grifters. 1.00
00:11:51.940 Why do you think they're leaving after telling us for six years they couldn't stand the UK?
00:11:58.800 They they made their escape to Montecito, the propaganda of that with love, Megan, trying to show us this miraculous, perfect life that they had built for themselves out in one of the most beautiful areas on Earth.
00:12:13.380 They had everything was perfect.
00:12:15.360 Maureen, why are they leaving?
00:12:16.660 I have so many theories, Megan, so many theories. When I was thinking about all of this in advance
00:12:23.860 of coming on to talk to you, it occurred to me, by the way, that this is personal, at least for
00:12:29.660 me, because the very first time I did your show, and I think you had just gone to video,
00:12:36.720 I was asked to come on because of a Megan and Harry blow up story. And I believe it was the
00:12:43.000 story in which Meghan said to the cut that she was told by a member of the Lion King
00:12:49.820 that when she married into Harry's family, they danced in the streets in South Africa like Mandela
00:12:56.740 was freed. I'll never forget it. It's seared in my memory and who knew a friendship would be born
00:13:03.400 from that. Meghan and Harry, at least, they brought you and I together. I can be thankful
00:13:08.460 for that. For that, we're truly grateful. I can be truly grateful for that. I think many things
00:13:14.340 are going on. So the reporting is, the reporting that the Daily Mail has is that Charles himself
00:13:20.220 was blindsided by this news. You know, they were just in the UK. Harry just had that meeting with
00:13:26.860 the King at Highgrove. The reporting is that he never mentioned a peep to the King. Now that's
00:13:33.180 the reporting? Could there be a deeper play at work here where that's the official story?
00:13:39.760 Because we also know this marriage seems to be in trouble. They professionally separated their 0.99
00:13:46.120 brands about a year ago and announced they were doing so. Here in the United States,
00:13:51.660 Harry and Meghan have been making appearances separately together, separate from each other,
00:13:56.060 excuse me, for months now. We had reporting over at The Nerve. Lady C came on with her explosive
00:14:02.440 report, multiply sourced. 1.00
00:14:04.820 Heard it. Harry's in love with another
00:14:06.660 woman. Which she said, yeah.
00:14:08.500 And that other woman is in love with him.
00:14:09.920 Harry loves somebody else.
00:14:12.160 And there was a question raised about
00:14:14.140 whether Meghan actually carried those babies
00:14:16.600 or used a surrogate. This is something we've
00:14:18.580 seen in the press for a long time. It's
00:14:20.480 not really behind the move or anything.
00:14:22.140 It was just very interesting. Ladies, he was suggesting 0.95
00:14:24.360 she'd heard speculation
00:14:26.640 along the same lines. Of course, Meghan and
00:14:28.520 Harry say that she carried their babies. 0.99
00:14:29.920 but I mean, it would be right on brand with his vain woman to not want to do anything to her 0.96
00:14:34.160 precious body, whatever. That's an aside. If he's in love with somebody else and they're leaving
00:14:40.120 because what he wants to get the children back in the UK before things split up so that he doesn't
00:14:46.020 have to deal with an across the pond relationship, you know, they're there. He'll, he'll be in better
00:14:50.760 legal standing to say you have to stay here. But I don't know because Maureen, they're keeping the
00:14:56.940 Montecito mansion for now. And so that has some people thinking she's, she's either not really
00:15:03.180 going to go with him. Like this could actually be the split where for all intents and purposes,
00:15:08.580 like she's actually going to stay here, even though we're pretending she's leaving. Who knows?
00:15:12.760 Well, I read this morning that there is now as, as always with the Sussex is nothing is clean.
00:15:19.040 There's no controlled messaging. That's seamless. The reporting, the latest reporting is that
00:15:24.560 Meghan's going to give it a try for six months.
00:15:27.800 She's not all in.
00:15:29.820 Now, you know, when they went back and Harry had that meeting with Charles at Highgrove
00:15:34.740 and the reporting also was that Meghan was made to wait in the hallway for quite some time
00:15:39.580 before she could join her husband with the king.
00:15:44.820 They're running out of money.
00:15:47.160 I don't know how they're going to finance a non-royal home,
00:15:52.160 a home not provided by the british royal family right is this part of a larger play to get harry
00:15:59.380 back to get the children if once you enroll children at at such young ages in school
00:16:05.800 you know the idea of ripping them out is is is a is a is a huge one harry gets out of california
00:16:13.580 residence before 10 years are up once 10 years are hit in california you file for divorce it's
00:16:20.580 community property 50 50 okay so now he's got british residents reasserted reaffirmed
00:16:28.640 megan what is she going to do there she is loathed she's got no friends
00:16:36.280 i asked the team to pull this for me i said what's the latest approval rating of those two over there
00:16:42.360 You Gov poll of Britain's in July. Harry's favorability is 30 percent. Meghan's is 22. For comparison, Williams was at 76. Princess Catherine is at 74. All right. I mean, even Queen Camilla's, she's at 43. She's well ahead of both of them. And the British public used to hate her.
00:17:05.820 But now look at that. Meghan Markle has a 22% favorability rating in the UK. Nearly 80% of the populace hates her.
00:17:16.680 So what will she do, Megan? Because again, that last trip to the UK, she didn't even show her face publicly. Not once. She came late, actually. The reporting initially was she and the children were going to be with Harry during this most momentous visit in which he was promoting the 2027 Invictus Games. 0.97
00:17:36.800 his most serious cause, the cause we are told is closest to his heart. Was she there for any of it?
00:17:43.500 Nope. That was the same week, by the way, he got the black eye. All of his claims against the
00:17:49.700 publisher of the Daily Mail were rejected. He and his cohort are now on the hook for $63 million.
00:17:56.760 Right. Because loser pays in the British legal system and he lost.
00:18:00.480 He lost. And that's not even, the judge still has to rule on what legal fees he'll be paying 0.90
00:18:07.460 for the defense in that court case. And I find this timing, as I know you do,
00:18:14.160 incredibly convenient. They have no money. All of the Hollywood people have backed away slowly
00:18:21.520 and have vanished your oprah's your tyler perry's your chris jenner's um ted sarandos
00:18:29.500 ted sarandos i mean he denied it in the variety piece but it seemed to me like a faint denial
00:18:34.980 where he said i won't get on the phone with her without my lawyer on the other line
00:18:38.920 they're done they're done here megan's done there um i i have no idea what she does with
00:18:48.920 herself for six months we know she can't live without a camera or a spotlight yeah no they
00:18:55.520 have no friends maureen you remember harry he showed up at the nba finals with the commissioner
00:19:01.220 it was like a guy in his 30s gets an invitation to the nba finals and he doesn't go with like his
00:19:10.320 bros that's like yes doug and i are very much in love i i would not be his first phone call for the
00:19:16.420 NBA finals. He would want to go with one of his best friends, one of his dude friends who loves
00:19:21.880 basketball. He showed up with the commissioner. He he has no one and she has no one. They have
00:19:28.900 absolutely no friends. But I really think it's more simple. I genuinely believe they it's their
00:19:36.200 vanity. And in particular, it's her vanity. I believe she's not happy. Her little kids are
00:19:43.640 not getting the royal treatment and neither is she. I think she probably wants those kids to 0.73
00:19:49.080 grow up with a British accent. I think she wants them to be referred to as prince and princess
00:19:55.260 everywhere. I think she wants to be able to have her latest assistant, who only lasts two months 1.00
00:20:00.360 because she bullies them all out, be able to call any restaurant in town and say it's the Duke and
00:20:06.500 Duchess of Sussex, which actually means something over there. Here, people are like, whatever. Give
00:20:12.020 me a fucking break. Is it Tom Cruise or isn't it? Because that's the only person we stay up late 1.00
00:20:16.560 for. You know, she wants that status that she thought she was getting when she married him. 1.00
00:20:23.260 And so I believe she wants this. And she probably had to talk him into it because he actually has
00:20:29.340 been ripping on his country nonstop 15 months ago. He said he could not possibly. Is this a
00:20:37.840 soundbite or is this just in my notes? He said he could not possibly go back there. No, no, no,
00:20:43.500 it is a soundbite. Can't see a world in which I'd be bringing my wife and children back
00:20:47.680 to the UK. Saw five, listen. The only time that I've come back to the UK is sadly for funerals 0.59
00:20:55.160 or court cases with the odd charitable function where I can in between that. I put myself at risk
00:21:03.560 for that but I will continue on with a life of public service so I will always support the
00:21:09.960 charities and the people that mean so much to me. I can't see a world in which I would be bringing
00:21:18.840 my wife and children back to the UK at this point and the things that they're going to miss
00:21:25.500 is well everything. I love my country, I always have done despite what some people in that country
00:21:32.940 have done okay but that that was 15 months ago maureen i can't see a world in which i'd bring
00:21:41.140 them back now they're all moving there what changed consistency and uh you know an intellectual
00:21:46.920 through line has never been the strong suit of the sussexes ever true true facts i also think
00:21:53.620 i i i you know we we talked about last time we talked about this it was just like five minutes
00:21:59.900 ago you know we were talking about how diana i i think diana had it right when she said charles
00:22:05.100 was too weak for the top job people magazine in their exclusive report last night and we know
00:22:11.080 people which is from her it's the preferred they definitely have her as a source in my opinion 0.84
00:22:16.600 she's their source exactly all of their exclusives which are over the top favorable to her they shoot
00:22:21.440 them the emails you know and then they just reprint them with like you know very very minor
00:22:25.520 tweaks said that um the the people report oh said that the sussexes felt they had very successfully
00:22:35.520 accomplished what they had set out to do by moving to america which was establish themselves as the
00:22:41.500 half in half out royals which is such an f you to the late queen who at this and they blindsided
00:22:49.980 the queen too with their announcement of exit in the first place at the sandringham summit the
00:22:54.740 late queen said, there is no half in or half out in her infinite wisdom. She said, no half in or
00:23:00.800 half out. You're either all in and you serve the British public and you represent this country or
00:23:06.060 you are out. Go make your money. We wish you well. You cannot represent the royals. And now they're
00:23:12.660 saying that not only are they doing that, they've successfully done it. And I think the danger here
00:23:17.820 is very real because I think that Harry is going to continue to make his appearances. And he is a
00:23:24.280 Prince of the Blood. And those will be considered royal appearances, whether they're endorsed by
00:23:31.380 the palace or not. Meghan will continue her travels as an ambassadress of who knows what,
00:23:38.400 and she'll consider those royal appearances. Now, this is, I think, also the deviousness of these
00:23:45.760 two, because I think they are looking to get back in with King Charles. And they're going to attempt
00:23:53.460 to checkmate william because once charles begins to soften operation thaw is what it's called in
00:23:59.700 charles's realm how is william going to look to the british public if he maintains his stance
00:24:08.340 that his brother who has been nothing but a traitor to him his wife his children and the crown
00:24:15.540 will will william somehow be depicted as the bad guy here really he'd love nothing more i mean his
00:24:24.100 in his book spare which is the only successful thing they've done uh he alleged uh that during
00:24:31.560 a 2019 argument over megan william called megan difficult rude and abrasive that he grabbed harry
00:24:39.440 by the collar and knocked him to the floor where he landed on a dog bowl and injured his back he
00:24:44.340 said that William later apologized. He called William his arch nemesis. He's my beloved brother
00:24:50.480 and arch nemesis, he said. By the way, while on the subject of the insults, he hurled his family
00:24:57.260 in his book. A couple more. He accused Camilla of using him to fix her image. He portrayed her
00:25:02.740 as dangerous because of her relationships with the British press. He accused his dad, Camilla
00:25:08.900 and William of working with the press against him. He you know, he's had nothing but negative
00:25:15.680 things to say about them. And then in that Netflix special, the two of them called the
00:25:21.860 British public racist. We pulled the soundbite just in case people forgot. I guarantee you the
00:25:27.760 British public has not forgotten. It's that 10B. If you go back and look at the social media
00:25:34.280 of that moment, immigration is at the absolute centre of those debates.
00:25:39.820 And immigration is very often in this country a cipher for race. 0.83
00:25:45.860 Everybody should feel concerned about illegal immigration. 0.95
00:25:49.480 We don't know who these people are. 1.00
00:25:51.020 Get back to us, we've got.
00:25:53.180 Send them back to us.
00:25:54.160 So the EU Commission report in 2016, exactly the same time that our relationship became
00:26:09.100 public, it warned that if the government isn't going to do something or if the media
00:26:15.260 aren't going to sort themselves out, that a culture war that had already existed was
00:26:20.080 going to become huge and become a real problem.
00:26:24.160 It was a perfect storm that gave credence to jingoism and nationalism and gave people with really horrible views of the world a little bit more strength and confidence to say what they wanted to say, to do whatever they wanted to do.
00:26:46.200 the nerve of these two to call them all racist anybody who wanted brexit was racist
00:26:53.280 and then expect to prance back in there and get a hero's return well you know that netflix
00:26:58.540 documentary which i believe they fired the original director or she left under a cloud of
00:27:04.680 of conflict uh you know if that's there if that's the story they want to put out there
00:27:11.280 that um racism really began to flourish when megan came on the scene i mean i call this
00:27:19.360 histrionic personality disorder you know you're you're responsible for like cross border you know
00:27:25.560 get out okay secondly if if this is true if this is if this is what they truly believe megan
00:27:31.600 why okay harry has spent almost his entire his full-time job as best i can tell has been suing
00:27:38.780 the british tabloids yeah so if the british tabloids are so terrible have made as he said
00:27:46.500 on the witness stand he said that he was weeping oh they've made my my wife's life a living hell
00:27:52.840 at which point the judge had to say excuse me sir this isn't a therapy session control yourself
00:27:58.760 right this is a mcdonald's sir you know like stop crying uh if even maureen even in that in that
00:28:06.380 People Magazine piece because the Telegraph broke the news that Meg sits off and now they're going 0.72
00:28:13.080 back. And then People Magazine almost instantly had its own piece up, 100 percent obviously from
00:28:19.560 the Sussexes. And in that piece, they they they detail like what they're what they're going to do
00:28:27.660 and what this is about. Hold on one second. I just want to pull it up because it's better if I read
00:28:31.660 it. Yeah. OK, this is what they put the blame on. While the couple appeared to have an idyllic
00:28:39.360 life in Montecito, they want you to know it was idyllic. This isn't a fail. Everything was ideal
00:28:44.000 and idyllic. While they appeared to have an idyllic life in Montecito, they have made
00:28:49.600 no secret of their disillusionment with the current White House,
00:28:54.960 with the midterm elections fast approaching concerns about the direction of the US
00:29:02.380 loom large for many. This is the most cynical BS I've ever read in my life.
00:29:09.720 They don't give a shit about who's in the White House. If she were getting her reservations when 0.99
00:29:15.760 she wanted them, she'd be staying. Trump has been president or president elect for almost two years
00:29:23.040 now. In fact, he's been president in his second term for so long that we are now on the cusp of
00:29:30.540 beginning the next presidential election where he could possibly be replaced by a by a Democrat.
00:29:35.740 He will be replaced by somebody. So to blame it on Trump is such an obvious head fake like to her
00:29:43.440 leftist, you know, the very small crew of leftists who still like her. Like I said, I'm leaving
00:29:49.300 because of Trump. What a lie that to me, putting that in there makes it clear that this is all a
00:29:56.640 lie and they don't want to tell us what the real reason is. And so what that. OK, so it's got to
00:30:01.840 be a few things. Are they ending the relationship? Are they out of money, which is a very real
00:30:08.500 possibility? Or is it just a petty need for more attention? You tell me, Maureen, how that's going
00:30:15.240 to go if okay so great you can get your reserve your restaurant reservation but everyone there
00:30:19.980 hates you no one's clamoring to spend time with you they're looking at you but they're looking
00:30:24.260 at you disdainfully they can't stand you and they know now that you can't stand them i'm so happy
00:30:31.780 that they very quickly um disavowed their uh search for privacy all credit to south park
00:30:40.260 Worldwide Privacy Tour, and have left us with such historical documentation
00:30:45.300 of everything they thought and felt in any given moment. Do you remember, Megan? It was around this
00:30:51.120 time last year, I think, or maybe even earlier this year, Megan sat down with Emily Chang of
00:30:56.580 Bloomberg. She was launching something else. And Emily Chang over Smashburgers asked Megan about
00:31:04.760 the very difficult time we're in in this country? And did Meghan feel like she could say everything
00:31:11.220 she wanted to say as far as her concerns about where this country is headed politically?
00:31:17.000 And Meghan sat there knowing, as Michael Jordan famously said, Republicans buy sneakers too.
00:31:23.440 Well, I think I've said everything I've had to say. Now we're politicizing it again. And
00:31:30.680 we're politicizing it just months after King Charles and Queen Camilla came to the United
00:31:37.560 States for a multi-day state. We're warmly welcomed by Donald and Melania Trump, have
00:31:44.060 spoken mutually about how much they regard each other in the highest realm. So it's so on branch
00:31:51.580 for them to mess everything up before they even start. Let's blame Harry's father's American 1.00
00:31:57.940 best friend, the leader of the free world. That's the ticket.
00:32:02.400 Yes. And that way, maybe leftist Britons might welcome us back. We had to flee Trump. He was so
00:32:11.360 bad. And all of MAGA is so racist, just like those evil Brexit voting Britons. We had no choice but 0.99
00:32:18.820 to return home where Meghan could be safe, where our black children could be safe. They're whiter 1.00
00:32:25.640 than you and i are that's why i buy the surrogate rumors and the egg donor rumors i mean you know
00:32:31.820 those are red hair yes blue eyes those are recessive genes honestly and you and i are white
00:32:38.720 and these kids we are pasty these kids are pastier than we are um the obsession with celebrity is a
00:32:46.900 factor here you mentioned it they got the cold shoulder out there no one's taking their calls
00:32:51.960 anymore. There have been multiple reports out about this, that we, we literally talked about
00:32:56.380 the cold shoulder that they got at that event with the guy was supposed to be like a surrogate 0.94
00:33:00.580 father to Harry, um, that, you know, muckety muck up in Canada. Yeah, there we go. Married 0.99
00:33:05.560 to Catherine McPhee, how he didn't want to like hug Megan on the red carpet. And it was an obvious
00:33:11.020 awkward moment. Oprah reportedly said no to doing another interview with them. They're, they're not,
00:33:17.520 they're not what they thought they'd be. And these two are obsessed with celebrity. Meanwhile, Kate
00:33:24.300 and William are like this, you know, everybody wants to book them. Everybody wants to be near
00:33:29.640 them. It's like, you know, touching them gives you the Midas touch. That's the image that they
00:33:34.200 have. But can we forget this image, this moment from Megan after the, hold on a second. Yeah,
00:33:43.500 It was it was after the Oprah interview aired and they included this bit in their Netflix special about a special phone call that Megan got.
00:33:52.920 Sot three. Beyonce just texted.
00:33:59.160 Just checking, just checking in, just casual.
00:34:04.100 I still can't believe she knows what I know.
00:34:06.920 no it's okay she said she wants me to feel safe and protected she admires and respects my bravery
00:34:17.100 and vulnerability and she thinks i was selected to break generational curses that need to be healed
00:34:21.760 oh my god it's all sad oh my god maureen could i just tell you something so you know at the top
00:34:30.760 of the show I teased this um behind the scenes stuff on the mk tour and you're in this week's
00:34:37.180 episode it's so good um but they're like it was funny because my producers god love them
00:34:42.280 had included like some some over the top nice things that certain characters had said about me
00:34:47.700 and I said please take all that out take that out of there we I don't want that you know it's
00:34:52.800 ridiculous like I'm putting it out if I'm putting it out it's like me complimenting myself I'm not
00:34:58.880 doing that. This bitch had that in her Netflix document, reading, she praised my bravery, 0.99
00:35:09.200 generational curses, traumas. And Harry, like the ballest wonder he is, is like, that's right. 0.99
00:35:16.940 That's right. You were said to break the curses wrought by generations of my family,
00:35:22.040 the oldest monarchy in the west i believe you know it's incredible too because um i don't believe
00:35:29.960 that that was the text beyonce wrote it just doesn't sound like beyonce i have like a very
00:35:36.940 very very well-sourced friend who um has told me that she this was stuff she was saying once she
00:35:44.320 was behind palace walls before the marriage that she believed she had been divinely ordained
00:35:50.620 to be the second coming of princess diana oh my she's like unwell she's a d i think she's a deeply
00:35:59.020 unwell dangerous person i think that the other thing megan from that netflix documentary which
00:36:05.540 i don't understand how any brit will ever get past i mean we just went through her taking
00:36:12.820 photos of harry and the children at what looked like a procession to diana's grave 0.97
00:36:18.000 which was said to enrage Prince William, rightly so, the crossing of the ankles in the limousine
00:36:25.360 while driving past Diana's death tunnel, the mock curtsy that she executed, that deep
00:36:34.120 Oh, we have it. 0.95
00:36:34.900 Curtsy.
00:36:35.880 Here it is. Sat 9, making fun of the queen.
00:36:40.180 Americans will understand this. We have medieval times, dinner and tournament. It was like that.
00:36:44.800 Like, I curtsied as though I was like.
00:36:55.300 Pleasure to meet you, your majesty.
00:36:58.580 Was that okay?
00:37:00.900 Oh my God, his reaction says it all. 1.00
00:37:03.380 She's such an asshole. 1.00
00:37:05.560 She's making fun of it. 1.00
00:37:08.280 And by the way, Megan, speak for yourself.
00:37:10.720 America at large does not regard the British royal family as like medieval times.
00:37:18.240 The franchise restaurant slash theme park, we do not.
00:37:23.180 But in that moment, and that's where you see her deep insecurity and lack of a self.
00:37:29.720 The only thing she knows how to do is try to elevate herself, compensate for her deep
00:37:36.720 insecurity, the mask she's always wearing, by bringing Harry and the British royal family
00:37:41.420 down to her level.
00:37:43.340 Well, now, I mean, I'll be interested to see, and we'll cover this as it evolves, but I
00:37:48.060 will be interested to see what this does to the royal family because they've set off yet
00:37:53.340 another bomb within it.
00:37:56.180 But if it's true that they didn't tell King Charles until this past Sunday, the reports are both in People, so they're claiming it, and the Telegraph, as you pointed out, that he didn't find out until Sunday, the 16th of August, which was this past Sunday, right?
00:38:12.300 Yeah.
00:38:12.360 Is that this past Sunday or the one before God?
00:38:13.760 No, this one, like a few days ago.
00:38:15.620 Yeah, it's this past Sunday.
00:38:17.080 So that he didn't tell them, he didn't tell the king when he was over there, and that the king found out, as we all did, basically.
00:38:23.560 and William and Kate
00:38:25.900 reportedly don't want this
00:38:27.260 so what's going to happen now?
00:38:30.820 I mean, how does this threaten
00:38:32.560 the royal family
00:38:33.280 because poor King Charles
00:38:34.300 is now going to have to be
00:38:35.340 navigating between
00:38:36.280 the one son who is the heir
00:38:38.520 who has done his duty
00:38:39.920 who didn't get a six-year reprieve
00:38:42.200 hanging out with Tyler Perry
00:38:43.660 and Oprah
00:38:44.560 who doesn't want them 1.00
00:38:47.220 and doesn't appreciate
00:38:48.220 the split business nature
00:38:49.760 of the relationship
00:38:50.500 as you point out
00:38:51.520 Queen Elizabeth said no to
00:38:53.400 and the other son who just plays on his heartstrings and says well if you want to see your
00:38:59.140 latest grandchildren you know you'll allow me back and we'll be able to do regular visit visits
00:39:04.260 at all the royal properties and you'll protect me with adequate security and make me feel like a
00:39:09.840 royal like i like i want and so poor king charles who is aging and still dealing with the fallout
00:39:16.700 from the cancer diagnosis has been placed in a very difficult spot and this could really tear
00:39:21.680 the whole family apart. I agree with you. I think it's the greatest existential threat since Andrew,
00:39:26.460 truly. They just sort of excised that cancer only to have a different kind re-enter the host.
00:39:37.000 This affects Britain. It's not just any family. And this is where I do think Diana was right
00:39:43.480 and Charles is weak. If they're going to insist upon returning, I think the king needs to make
00:39:50.260 it very clear, they're returning as private citizens. There is no place for them in the
00:39:58.880 family that they renounced. And Charles isn't the only member of this family who has been dealing
00:40:05.420 with cancer. Catherine was diagnosed with cancer. And you know what could have helped when William
00:40:11.220 was dealing with a sick wife and three small children and a sick father? Having a brother
00:40:16.800 who hadn't betrayed him so many times in such deep, profound ways, who had stayed and done the
00:40:24.780 job, and a sister-in-law who understood her role and stepped in to help. That would have been,
00:40:31.700 that would have been what, that's what family does. I think that Charles is, I think there's
00:40:40.660 something even deeper here. I think, and it's dark, but I think Charles resents William.
00:40:46.800 I do. I think it's just like Diana.
00:40:49.600 There's a rift between those two that because William holds him responsible for what happened to William's mother.
00:40:55.720 But William also has all of Diana's gifts.
00:40:58.860 He's got the charm, the magnetism.
00:41:03.240 He's photogenic. People love him.
00:41:07.400 He's got this image like, you know, Charles resented Diana for all of those qualities as well.
00:41:14.740 Charles reads the polls.
00:41:16.620 He knows that the British public,
00:41:18.180 this job he's been waiting for his entire adult life,
00:41:21.260 he gets it, he gets sick.
00:41:23.160 He reads the papers.
00:41:24.360 He knows that the British public would die for William
00:41:27.620 to ascend the throne sooner than later.
00:41:29.340 They want William.
00:41:30.240 Yep, they want William.
00:41:31.500 So this is a shift to him.
00:41:33.560 I just thought of something else.
00:41:33.900 Sorry.
00:41:35.060 There's something else. 0.97
00:41:36.860 Those two grifters want their children
00:41:39.380 to grow up close to the future future king.
00:41:44.160 and i mean prince george so they have george um what's the the name charlotte and then louie
00:41:54.140 okay now they know that i think they know that harry and william are probably not going to
00:42:00.140 reconcile but one day george will be king and i think they want lilibet and archie to be in a
00:42:09.260 position to be treated by that point as equal royals to George and Charlotte and Louis, that
00:42:17.540 they can salvage that generation. And Louis is only eight years old. And guess how old Archie
00:42:24.240 is? He's seven years old. And there is a report out today suggesting that they're hoping to
00:42:30.120 ingratiate themselves with the wider British family, like the royal, British royal family,
00:42:35.880 All the other royals who are running around out there, not named William and Kate, and
00:42:40.500 their children as well.
00:42:41.660 And think about it.
00:42:42.340 And they want them to go to these British schools.
00:42:43.620 So if these kids could follow in the footsteps of William and Harry, then those boys are
00:42:48.500 going to go to Eton.
00:42:50.240 That's where Harry went.
00:42:51.480 That's where William went.
00:42:52.720 And George, no, sorry, Louis and Archie would be there at the same time.
00:42:58.320 They could potentially be in the same grade or separated by a year.
00:43:02.040 and i guarantee you these two are like our kids are going to get their little british accents
00:43:08.680 they're going to get their british education and they are going to be just as popular and famous 0.97
00:43:13.520 and beloved as that asshole williams children's like that i think they feel the entitlement to it 0.89
00:43:20.460 and they're like all we need to do is buy four plane tickets and it's ours i agree with everything 0.95
00:43:28.220 you're saying, I think the one point I differ on is I do not think Aiton will allow Harry's
00:43:37.400 children to attend or Archie. It's an all-boy school. I don't think he will allow it. They
00:43:43.940 educate future kings. Harry wrote of his time there terribly in spare. Why would he want to
00:43:51.180 send his child there? Again, I thought we were protecting the innocence and privacy of innocent
00:43:57.780 children by moving to America. When the merging didn't work out so well, we began seeing the
00:44:03.620 children, the backs of their heads, in slight profile. Now we want to integrate them. Integrating
00:44:10.580 them into the family means their public property to a degree. You have to work with the media.
00:44:16.420 So now they're going to work with the media? I thought the media killed his mother.
00:44:20.660 I thought the royal family tried to kill her, Megan. Remember? Like, why would you go back
00:44:26.160 to a family that couldn't, that cared so little about your wife, they were ready to let her kill 0.92
00:44:31.720 herself. I mean, what this does is just put the lie to all the freaking whining that these two 1.00
00:44:38.000 have been doing for seven to 10 years now, right? They tried to bully me into committing suicide. 0.97
00:44:45.100 They won't protect me or my family from the evil British racist public that wants to kill us. I 0.99
00:44:51.180 could never move my family back there because we're not safe. We'll get killed. All of that
00:44:56.240 is by the wayside. And the Royal family is obsessed with skin color. You wanted to know
00:45:00.420 how dark my baby was going to be. What? What? Right. We all saw the theatrics around these lies
00:45:07.380 and now it's, we're back. Welcome us back. We love it here. And it's about the schools or it's
00:45:14.960 about Trump. That's what they want. So wait, you're going to endanger your wife and your
00:45:20.320 children because of Trump or because you think you can't find a good school in the United States
00:45:26.480 of America. I'm sorry, but we have some of the greatest schools in the world here. Everybody
00:45:31.960 knows that, especially out of fancy Montecito area. Some private school out there can't do
00:45:36.820 better than some British school. I beg to differ. And by the way, she's like, I'm a California girl
00:45:43.260 and I love the sun. And I OK, you know what London is like? Enjoy that. You're going to be
00:45:48.640 there for the next 18 years or 15 while your kids go through the public school. She's going to hate
00:45:52.840 it. She's absolutely going to hate it. So anyway, all these, these behaviors are putting the lie
00:45:58.140 to all the bullshit they've been spending for years. I know. And they're going right back 0.99
00:46:03.240 into the lion's maw. I mean, what kind of treatment do they think the British tabloids
00:46:07.840 are going to give them? This is partly why I really do think this is the, we're building
00:46:13.100 the blocks to a divorce announcement. Megan can go for six months. The children get enrolled in 0.98
00:46:19.400 boarding school. She can be bi-coastal. It doesn't really matter. They're in boarding school nine 0.96
00:46:24.640 months out of the year. She takes them on summer vacations, wherever she takes them.
00:46:30.080 She gets, you know, a King Charles. And this is why they should have stripped the titles.
00:46:38.360 Because if they didn't have the titles, none of this would be on the table. We wouldn't be
00:46:42.460 talking about what damage these wrecking balls can do they're such destroyers um wait what was
00:46:48.800 i say i totally lost my train of thought wait i i mean i well i have something for you in any event
00:46:54.360 because we only have a couple minutes left and i want to get this in last april she went on with
00:46:58.880 that ridiculous person jamie kern lima um you know the he the one that talks like this and
00:47:05.240 listen to how she described their their life now 11 are you in love now more than ever more than 0.98
00:47:12.160 you've ever been? Yeah. I mean, you have to imagine at the beginning, everyone is like
00:47:17.460 butterflies. And then we immediately went into the trenches together. Yeah. Right out of the gate,
00:47:26.500 like six months into dating. So now seven years later, when you have a little bit of breathing
00:47:31.900 space, you can just enjoy each other in a new way. And that's why I feel like it's more of a
00:47:37.600 honeymoon period for us now yeah do you think you'll be married forever yes i have a letter
00:47:47.080 he's also a fox if you haven't noticed my husband's very very handsome that he's his
00:47:52.460 heart is even more beautiful i love that your eyes are sparkling right now oh
00:47:57.760 maureen i threw up in my mouth all reports to the contrary that harry's got a bolt hole in
00:48:05.800 Santa Monica where he smokes weed and plays video game and gets on literal British time. This was
00:48:10.660 the thing I was going to say that reminded me a King Charles, unlike a King William will happily
00:48:17.040 cut Meghan Markle, an enormous check to go away. And I think she's, I think, I think she would be 0.59
00:48:24.160 happy to take it. Yes. But how about that nonsense of finally, we have room to breathe.
00:48:31.900 We were in the trenches. And by that, she means Buckingham Palace, Kensington Palace, Balmoral.
00:48:40.640 We were in the trenches. Six months later, you were fucking wearing tiaras, the crown jewels, 0.99
00:48:47.140 and having a wedding at Westminster Abbey where the King of England future walked you down the 0.99
00:48:52.800 aisle. What kind of weird revisionist bullshit history is this? And now finally, we have breathing 0.98
00:48:59.300 space. Oh, but we want to go back to where we were being suffocated. We'd like to go back to
00:49:03.320 where they want me to die. They want my children and my entire family to be in danger from the
00:49:08.720 racist British public and where we cannot breathe any longer. And it's because of the schools and
00:49:16.660 Trump. Maureen, this is perhaps the biggest line of bullshit these two have ever tried to feed us. 1.00
00:49:23.540 And we are only left to ask ourselves, why? What is the real reason? I'd love to hear from the 1.00
00:49:28.640 audience. You can email me Megan at Megan Kelly dot com. I maintain they're not getting enough
00:49:35.020 attention. It really is the South Park thing. We want privacy, which we all know is fake.
00:49:40.740 And no one here gives a shit about royals. We just don't like we'll pay them special homage 0.98
00:49:45.900 when they come by for a little visit, like be cool to see William and Kate. We were really
00:49:49.880 nice to Charles because he was really nice to us. But like living amongst us day to day,
00:49:54.300 we don't give a shit. We don't believe in royalty. We're American. You're not special. 0.98
00:50:00.140 And you two are really not special. And especially in Montecito, which has got
00:50:04.480 billionaires and actually accomplished people and they can't stand it. Maureen, I'm sure you'll
00:50:12.120 have more on this on the nerve this weekend for us. You got it. We, this, this thing broke last
00:50:19.180 night and we had a we our original mini was going to be all about um someone named jeff who bombed
00:50:26.260 into our live chat and every troublemaker myself included believes jeff megan was oprah oh my gosh
00:50:35.180 it's it's okay i do want to hear that we have to do but we've had to we've had to put that on ice
00:50:40.680 for a moment because we've we've got to address this late like this is the other thing you're so
00:50:45.920 right about the celebrity part important you're so right about the celebrity part megan up until
00:50:51.720 yesterday afternoon wednesday afternoon the biggest celebrity story of the week was hayden
00:50:56.200 panettiere nobody's talking about her anymore now we're talking about these two they know exactly
00:51:01.940 what they're doing oh it's so true i mean i'm sorry but you've got to do it you've got to rejigger
00:51:07.800 from the others as interested as i am in oprah possibly aka jeff this is an all hands on deck
00:51:14.480 situation. We need we need to get to the bottom of this. Is there a potential separation in the
00:51:19.380 mix? Are we actually finding finally rid of them over here in America? I'll bet no one's happier
00:51:25.120 than the Montecito neighbors who have been probably looking at these two and all the people 0.97
00:51:29.100 she's bullied out there. In any event, we will stay on it, as will the nerve, as will Teddy
00:51:34.240 Van Halen, Maureen's right hand reporter on the nerve. He found Stedman, but possibly just a
00:51:41.240 cardboard cutout. More from her over the weekend, and we will be back more here with Kelly's Court
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00:53:41.860 We've got some breaking news in the Carmelo Anthony case that you are not going to believe as we kick off an incredible Kelly's Court.
00:53:48.100 We'll have the latest on the death investigation into Hayden Penetier.
00:53:51.940 Is her on-again, off-again boyfriend in potential legal trouble?
00:53:55.160 And the Lindsay Clancy trial is back in session as her supporters are cheering outside the courtroom and all over social media.
00:54:02.220 We'll talk about why, but we're going to kick it off with Carmelo Anthony.
00:54:06.760 And guess who's here in the red studio with me?
00:54:10.020 It's defense attorney, former prosecutor Arthur Idala.
00:54:12.900 He's host of the Arthur Idala Power Hour.
00:54:16.060 And two of our MK True Crime Show hosts, Dave Ehrenberg and Ashley Merchant, join me via the transom, the magic of satellites.
00:54:24.160 go and subscribe to their twice a week show
00:54:26.340 that they host along with our pal Phil Holloway
00:54:28.760 by going to mktruecrime.com
00:54:31.120 find it on YouTube
00:54:32.300 just go to the podcast button on your phone
00:54:34.300 and type in mktruecrime
00:54:35.480 and you will follow them if you hit subscribe
00:54:37.680 guys welcome back
00:54:38.980 great to see you
00:54:39.720 Dave and Ashley
00:54:41.040 and great to have you here in studio
00:54:42.660 what a thrill
00:54:43.620 this is the room where it happens
00:54:44.920 guys I'm in Ashley
00:54:45.960 I'm in the room where it happens
00:54:47.040 I'm jealous
00:54:48.080 I'm not gonna lie
00:54:49.300 I am jealous
00:54:50.020 I want to be there in the party
00:54:51.280 Arthur's not gonna be so thrilled
00:54:53.860 in about five minutes when the heat of my studio starts to kick in oh no that's that's fine i am
00:54:59.800 thrilled because i get to spend time with your husband that's that's always a fun time oh doug
00:55:03.860 is a good man all right guys great to see you this is we got to start with carmelo anthony
00:55:07.520 because just as i was talking about megan markle holy cow the update in this case is genuinely
00:55:13.680 stunning um okay my papers are everywhere well he's basically um i know what it is i just want
00:55:19.800 Having dreams about stabbing people and licking the blood off the knife.
00:55:24.020 He's so excited. 0.97
00:55:24.840 You should be quiet here.
00:55:25.980 Let me tell them what it actually is.
00:55:27.220 OK, Daily Mail's Marianne Martinez reporting because they're in court this morning on Carmelo Anthony on the defense motion to get him a retrial, a new trial, saying that there had been a gentleman's agreement that we weren't going to do character evidence at this trial.
00:55:42.680 And the prosecution somehow violated that by making some passing reference to like what Austin Metcalf liked to do or what Carmelo Anthony liked to do for fun.
00:55:51.820 It was just it was it's such a Hail Mary by the defense.
00:55:54.860 But something big happened in court this morning when the prosecutor got up and did not deny that there was a gentleman's agreement to not go to the character place on either the accused, Carmelo Anthony, who stabbed and killed Austin Metcalf at a track meet for absolutely nothing.
00:56:13.880 Austin told him he had to leave Austin's team's tent and Carmelo Anthony instantly stabbed him or Austin Metcalf.
00:56:23.720 They both sides agreed. We're not going to do character evidence on either the defendant or the decedent.
00:56:28.320 And the prosecutor got up there and said, we did have such an agreement.
00:56:32.020 But let me tell you what we would have introduced had we gone there.
00:56:36.780 It would have been like because now the defense is like we should have been able to do that.
00:56:40.920 We're going to do that. You know, we could have talked about what a bad person Austin Metcalf was.
00:56:44.380 And he's like, how about Carmelo Anthony, the actual defendant?
00:56:48.600 Here's what I had in my back pocket.
00:56:50.080 He says, first of all, Carmelo Anthony's girlfriend, Valeria, would have testified that she went to school the morning of the stabbing, April 2nd, 2025.
00:57:04.600 And she told school officials that she had broken up with Carmelo Anthony and that he was stalking her.
00:57:13.340 So this had happened that morning.
00:57:15.400 One hour later, Austin Metcalf was dead, according to the prosecutor.
00:57:21.000 Clearly painting a picture of this kid, you know, so-called Carmelo Anthony, who was a hothead, who was angry that morning in some level of emotional distress and turmoil already at the time he showed up at the track meet.
00:57:36.240 It's starting to come together, that hair trigger he had.
00:57:38.960 But here's the real headline.
00:57:41.760 So first of all, he texted the girlfriend, I'm low-key on the verge.
00:57:44.880 He texted her the morning of the stabbing. The verge of what? We're not sure exactly. However, the prosecutor says Anthony had a history of violence and that he wanted to stab someone. Quote, there is a text message where he fantasizes about stabbing someone and licking the blood off the blade.
00:58:07.140 he said of anthony he was obsessed with starting fights said the prosecutor and he was prepared to
00:58:13.600 prove that revealing anthony had previously been taken by his parents to a special program at lsu
00:58:21.240 for kids who cannot keep them their hands to themselves um he went on to say let's see um
00:58:28.900 there was one of the things suggesting that there was oh yeah there was previous aggressive behavior
00:58:35.780 and text messages about a knife in particular.
00:58:40.200 That came out a little bit after.
00:58:41.960 So all of this is deeply disturbing
00:58:44.540 and would not have helped Carmelo Anthony at all, Arthur.
00:58:49.020 So what do you make of it?
00:58:50.720 Well, first of all, this type of evidence
00:58:52.620 usually only comes out if the defendant's going to testify.
00:58:55.740 You can't, unless it's absolutely relevant.
00:58:58.180 Now, maybe the part about the girlfriend going that day,
00:59:02.060 because that's relevant, right?
00:59:03.100 That's within hours of this happening.
00:59:05.780 that may have come out, but it didn't.
00:59:08.260 And, I mean, that's the thing.
00:59:09.920 The difference between a jury and a judge, a judge at this point,
00:59:12.780 you could let it all hang out.
00:59:14.500 And, Megan, I mean, I think Hail Mary is what the term you use.
00:59:19.600 I would say a miracle.
00:59:20.980 In other words, they made a passing reference to him being not a nice kid,
00:59:25.080 but they really had a tremendous amount of ammunition.
00:59:28.460 He kills a guy with a knife, and they have text messages of him
00:59:31.040 dreaming of stabbing him with a knife and then licking the blood off his blade.
00:59:35.520 I mean, this case is not going anywhere and it's, and it's a new judge, right? 0.99
00:59:39.280 They wanted the judge recused. He wasn't going to be fair and impartial. Good.
00:59:43.200 I'm happy. There's a new judge with a clean slate and he,
00:59:46.660 I'm sure this judge is going to be like, okay,
00:59:48.260 I think everything went well at the trial. Yes, exactly.
00:59:50.420 Cause it seems like a no brainer that, you know,
00:59:52.920 this Carmelo Anthony does not deserve a new trial. This is the new judge.
00:59:56.620 They got rid of the old judge cause he gave an interview to the press, Dave,
01:00:00.100 and made all sorts of statements of like, 0.99
01:00:02.920 i think my ruling on allowing them to strike those black jurors was correct i think the jury
01:00:08.620 verdict was correct and was saying a bunch of stuff that it's very rare that we see a judge
01:00:12.760 give interviews like that and the defense made the most of it and said you you need to recuse
01:00:16.740 he would he didn't recruit recuse he got bounced off of hearing these motions by an independent
01:00:22.380 judge they brought in to evaluate the motion and now the judge has been bounced but the new judge
01:00:28.280 doesn't exactly seem like a softy Dave. He's a lifelong Republican. They don't tend to be
01:00:33.220 softies on the bench. He also was very well respected when he was on the bench. He only
01:00:37.520 retired in 2020 and he's got some history of actually increasing sentences when they come
01:00:44.220 back around before him. So I'm not sure they're going to like the new judge any more than they
01:00:48.320 like the old judge. What do you make all this breaking news? Yeah, be careful what you wish
01:00:51.560 factor. Be careful what you wish for. You know, you got the new judge, same as the old judge,
01:00:55.420 right? It's this guy's going to be very tough. I do think it was the right decision to balance
01:01:01.940 the old judge because he did give a press interview where he said that he thought the
01:01:06.020 jury got it right with the guilty verdict. OK, well, the standard is whether it creates a
01:01:12.340 reasonable expectation of bias or an appearance of partiality. And yeah, when you're asking for
01:01:17.260 a new trial and the judge has already prejudged it, it's good to to get a new judge. And that's
01:01:21.940 good for appeal so they can't keep this going on any longer because the evidence is overwhelming
01:01:27.060 against Carmelo Anthony. And when they say, well, we had a deal with the prosecutors not to put on
01:01:33.300 evidence about the character of Carmelo Anthony and all this other stuff. And then that's why
01:01:39.180 we didn't put on our client, Carmelo Anthony, because if we had, then the prosecutors said
01:01:46.080 they were going to go after him for character. Well, now we know the real reason why they didn't
01:01:50.740 put Carmelo Anthony on the stand. It wasn't because of a deal with prosecutors. It's because
01:01:55.160 they had some smoking gun evidence about his text and his fight with his girlfriend.
01:02:00.780 That's exactly it. Well said that all this bullshit, Ashley, of like, well, we had a 0.98
01:02:06.620 gentleman's agreement. And, you know, once we realized the prosecution wasn't going to wasn't 0.96
01:02:11.820 going to honor it, we couldn't put him on the stand. Oh, and by the way, they said we only had
01:02:15.740 10 minutes to decide whether to put Carmelo on the stand. And the prosecutor actually is featured
01:02:21.100 in this report by CBS Texas. I'm going to play it quickly. Stop 49 on whether that's true to
01:02:25.440 listen to this is aired on July 20th. Howard's new affidavit says he was 99% sure before the
01:02:31.600 trial that Anthony would testify. He blames part of the reason he didn't on being rushed during
01:02:36.700 the closed door hearing and the judge declining to extend our time beyond 10 minutes. But the
01:02:41.860 trial transcript shows that behind closed doors, the judge gave Anthony a lengthy explanation of
01:02:46.840 his rights, and that the defense had more than a half hour beyond that to consider their next move,
01:02:52.180 even allowing Anthony to consult with his parents before telling the judge,
01:02:55.940 I don't want to testify. Did you think you had ample time to talk to your lawyers about that
01:03:00.640 and got feedback from them, feedback from your family? You have had enough time to make that
01:03:04.880 decision. Anthony replied, yes sir, we did. What was your reaction to seeing this affidavit? I was
01:03:10.420 surprised. I was disappointed and, frankly, a little confused. I mean, I was there for every
01:03:15.480 minute of the trial, and Bill Worski and our prosecution team, they conducted this case so
01:03:19.800 fairly and cleanly and professionally. Go ahead, Ashley. Megan, this is so clear they wanted a
01:03:26.060 door number three, and there was no door number three, and that happens a lot. I mean, he wanted
01:03:29.640 a door where he could testify, and none of this evidence would come in. That's not possible. No
01:03:34.580 matter how you spin it, no matter how many gentlemen's agreements you have, how you try
01:03:37.760 to wiggle it. If he took the stand, this evidence was going to come in and this evidence was going
01:03:41.520 to sink him. And that's why he didn't take the stand. And I guarantee you, they didn't have 10
01:03:45.560 minutes to talk about this. I guarantee you, they've been talking about this for a year
01:03:48.480 because the first thing you do, if you're a defense lawyer is you're going to look at this
01:03:52.120 and you're going to say, oh my God, my client has made statements like this, has made threats with
01:03:56.300 a knife. I mean, he had a prior school incident, you know, where he had been quasi suspended from
01:04:00.700 school. I mean, he had been taken to, you know, this, this treatment facility, I guess, for kids
01:04:04.840 who couldn't keep their hands to themselves. I mean, all of these things are things that would
01:04:08.200 come up if Carmelo Anthony took the stand. And any defense lawyer would know that there's a huge
01:04:13.020 risk that's going to come out and it's going to be highly relevant. And they wanted a door number
01:04:16.780 three and there was no door number three. So they had to make a choice. They don't like that choice.
01:04:21.260 And now they're trying to go back because they want to try again with another choice. And that's
01:04:24.320 not how it works. The just a little bit more from that first report that I was reading about what
01:04:29.700 happened in court came from the Daily Mail. This is from CBS, Texas, and their reporting is similar,
01:04:34.500 but adds a little bit of a new element where they say, um, the, the morning, this is from
01:04:40.380 the prosecutor, Bill Worski. He said, a lot of people have asked why Carmelo Anthony took a knife
01:04:44.420 to attract me. Those reasons were captured in our 404 motion about allowing in prior bad acts
01:04:51.320 by the defendant. Um, the morning of the stabbing, his ex-girlfriend goes to an assistant principal
01:04:56.760 saying she broke up with Carmelo and he was stalking her. Anthony, there's an Anthony text
01:05:01.900 message saying, I'm on the verge the morning before the stabbing and emphasized and that he
01:05:10.080 emphasized something that it's disjointed, this report. But then this reporter says he also
01:05:14.880 threatened her with a knife. He threatened the girlfriend with a knife in one message and told
01:05:21.320 her in another, when I stab someone, I'm going to lick their blood off the blade. So it seems like 0.99
01:05:28.280 he might have made a specific threat to the girlfriend which is why she's in reporting it
01:05:31.920 to the principal yeah and and you know megan every this case honestly and i know you kind of agree
01:05:37.080 this was a no-brainer right i mean he stabs this kid in the chest for basically no reason and all
01:05:42.200 this and none of us are happy when a young person like carmella anthony is now going to spend his
01:05:46.600 basically his life in prison but it makes you feel more comfortable about what really happened here
01:05:52.160 i mean and and this stuff if you testify i don't care about gentlemen there's no gentleman's
01:05:56.200 agreement there's yeah what is that if a defendant testifies you know this is what i mean look this
01:06:02.160 is a different location than manhattan or in brooklyn where i where i practice but it's the
01:06:07.520 rules of evidence and if i'm the prosecutor i'm no i'm gonna do everything i can to get that in i'm
01:06:11.800 gonna bust my butt to argue to the judge why is this relevant it has to go to his mindset that
01:06:18.080 day this isn't this isn't from five years ago this is right there and then the girlfriend 0.95
01:06:22.540 she's report she's her fear is so heightened that she's reporting it to authorities that is
01:06:29.100 something if i'm a juror i want to know that that this kid on that particular day he had hate in his
01:06:34.800 heart i mean that's he was itching for a fight and more than just a fight i mean a murder and
01:06:40.120 sarah fields who's been doing great reporting on this she reports um my multiple sources have been
01:06:45.220 telling me there is so much more about carmelo anthony behavior texts on his phone that go back
01:06:51.140 for years. I mean, Dave, we need to see this because the Austin Metcalf family is still being
01:06:59.020 harassed by these lunatics down there who think somehow their dead son is to blame for going over
01:07:06.360 to Carmelo Anthony and saying, you need to leave this tent. This is for our team. Yeah. But the 0.98
01:07:11.920 fact that they've made so much noise and are claiming that they didn't get a fair shake and
01:07:15.620 they need a new judge, it does open the door for all the stuff to come out, at least in the court
01:07:20.060 public opinion because to think that this was somehow self-defense now we know why he brought
01:07:27.020 the knife to the track meet and we know it's not self-defense this was not a spontaneous act this
01:07:32.160 was something a guy who was a ticking time bomb and they had a scrap a disagreement and at at
01:07:38.760 worse it should have been like a pushing fight which it was instead he brought a knife into it
01:07:43.680 and so there is no sympathy for him arthur is right we don't want to see young people go to
01:07:48.300 prison for life, but he took the life of another person and destroyed a family. And now that family
01:07:53.440 is also being dragged through the mud. So it's important for the truth to come out.
01:07:58.740 Yes, Ashley, the report, again, back to the Daily Mail's Marianne Martinez,
01:08:04.200 is that Metcalfe's mom is almost in tears in this courtroom this morning with eyes closed
01:08:09.220 as the prosecutor is talking about how there was almost a shooting at her house leading up to the
01:08:14.800 trial and how the Metcalfs were doxed multiple times. The victims are being treated like they're
01:08:24.160 the perpetrators. And I really think, I mean, who knows, but like the public release of who
01:08:31.480 Carmelo Anthony really was is overdue. There's no reason. I mean, I guess the prosecutors were
01:08:36.500 trying to preserve his, the case pending appeal, getting final rulings and all that, right? Is
01:08:41.940 What other reason would there be not to release that?
01:08:43.820 It's really interesting that you bring that point up because that's one thing that's really
01:08:46.640 kind of bothered me about this the entire time.
01:08:48.720 They did a lot of stuff in secret.
01:08:50.300 So these 404B motions is what we call them as lawyers.
01:08:53.100 And it's just, it's, you know, trying to keep out prejudicial evidence.
01:08:56.400 So evidence that maybe Carmelo had been in fights before.
01:08:59.140 Essentially, the government wants to bring that in.
01:09:00.980 The defense wants to keep it out.
01:09:02.420 And so you file these things called 404B motions.
01:09:04.760 Well, typically they're filed.
01:09:06.380 It's a public filing.
01:09:07.400 I mean, things that are filed in the court docket is public.
01:09:09.760 Typically, these hearings are held publicly.
01:09:11.440 In this case, they didn't file them in the court's docket.
01:09:14.600 The judge kept them, and they had these hearings sort of in secret.
01:09:18.000 And so as a member of the public, that really bothers me.
01:09:21.420 What's interesting, though, is Carmelo Anthony is trying to use that to get a new trial,
01:09:24.940 but it actually benefited him because the things that were in these motions are all
01:09:29.120 of these prior bad acts, the prior instances of violence or prior instances where maybe
01:09:33.780 he was stalking his girlfriend or he was making these heated texts, whatever happened at the
01:09:37.940 school that we still don't know about, but maybe by 5 o'clock today we'll know about
01:09:40.800 you know, whatever led for him to go to this program at LSU. All of this stuff is probably
01:09:45.380 in those motions. And so the court was really protecting him this whole time. But yet while
01:09:50.900 the court was trying to protect him and keep all this secret, the Internet was able to make up all
01:09:55.660 these false narratives and really spin this in a way that's just it's awful what's happened. I mean,
01:10:01.260 even the lawyers have been threatened, you know, both sides, the defense, the state. And I don't
01:10:04.980 think that that was really ever anybody's intention. But I think if the world had really
01:10:08.720 known the truth from the beginning, that maybe we wouldn't be where we are here today.
01:10:13.400 Here's the other thing, Arthur, that we found this out yesterday.
01:10:18.060 Back to Sarah Fields, she found this and actually Carmelo's lawyer's affidavit, his trial attorney,
01:10:25.200 Michael Howard, submitted an affidavit about an off-the-record agreement, this gentleman's
01:10:29.540 agreement he allegedly had with the prosecutors and so on.
01:10:31.380 So this comes from Carmelo's side and he writes, in sentencing, in reliance upon this
01:10:38.020 agreement, the defense did not designate an expert who was ready to testify regarding mitigation on
01:10:44.580 behalf of Carmelo. Like, don't give him a really mean sentence because all these terrible things
01:10:48.840 happened to him when he was a child. And so you should feel bad for him. And so this is what he
01:10:52.700 is now arguing, saying because of this gentleman's agreement, we did not we did not bring up a
01:10:58.980 character witness to offer mitigation. And so the defense severely limited its available character
01:11:05.440 witnesses to just three questions of mr anthony's mother but here's what i'm getting to he writes
01:11:10.920 other than general character testimony and pleas for mercy in reliance upon that agreement
01:11:16.080 the defense also did not go into substantial family violence mr anthony had witnessed
01:11:22.500 and had been a victim of in his own home now i'm sorry but these parents of his yeah i know
01:11:32.160 Right. I've been all over the news trying to paint the Metcalfs and the poor dead Austin as a racist with no evidence.
01:11:39.860 How many times have we seen this Mr. George Floyd all of the way after he died, all of a sudden was a saint, George Floyd, people who had never dealt with him, dealt with his mental illness, dealt with his addiction.
01:11:51.020 All of a sudden they were there and his brother. I mean, this is it's like a script.
01:11:55.540 And I'll answer your question, but the sad part, and I'll ask you the question. 0.55
01:12:00.240 If both of these kids were white or both of these kids were black, would it be more than a one-day story? 0.61
01:12:05.580 Maybe. 0.80
01:12:06.120 It wouldn't be this big.
01:12:07.240 But, I mean, a kid for apparently no reason shoving a knife in another kid's – that is a big story.
01:12:12.120 Yeah, but it's so obvious what happened.
01:12:14.120 This wasn't a whodunit.
01:12:15.640 No.
01:12:15.900 Right?
01:12:16.160 It was like, what happened?
01:12:17.600 And there really wasn't a –
01:12:19.540 Right.
01:12:19.740 There really wasn't much of a why.
01:12:21.220 I mean, could you leave the tent? 1.00
01:12:22.780 I'm going to stab you in the heart. 0.99
01:12:23.920 so I don't I don't this is foreign to me when you're doing this all right so someone gets 1.00
01:12:29.860 convicted of murder I don't care if you're 12 years old or 112 years old of course you put
01:12:35.320 your best foot forward yes if they put forward he had these dreams of licking blood off a knife
01:12:40.580 but you know that the kid got beaten as a kid Carmelo Anthony let's say his father abused his 0.77
01:12:45.400 mother father abused him he was sexually you got to put all of that out there and just throw it
01:12:50.560 all on the judge's lap and say look judge here's the good and here's the bad and here we are why
01:12:55.520 would you hold that back he didn't do it i i think he didn't do it because the parents probably
01:12:59.060 didn't want him to do it right those parents were enjoying being seen as saints dave and ashley
01:13:03.360 they were out there with their little weird press guy who was throwing the race card in everybody's
01:13:07.380 face based on nothing and they wanted to look like oh we're the we're the grieving parents
01:13:11.460 we're the ones who have lost something meanwhile they took the go fund me money and it appears
01:13:15.700 that they spent it on some $900,000 rental and blew a lot of that cash. And I'm sure they didn't
01:13:22.380 want it coming out. It's no accident, Ashley. Only now is Carmelo's lawyer saying, geez, I only asked
01:13:28.160 the mother three questions on mitigation. Then wasn't it's all the mean prosecutor's fault that
01:13:33.380 I didn't get into the fact that he had been so that he did not go into substantial family violence
01:13:40.640 he had witnessed and had been a victim of in his home home in his own home. He's saying
01:13:45.880 that there was somebody was beating somebody up inside that home. And Carmelo Anthony was one of
01:13:51.460 the people who got beaten up by who the sweet, loving parents. Exactly. So. So, Megan, you know
01:13:57.420 me, so this won't surprise you at all. As soon as I saw that, Mr., you know, that I don't even know
01:14:02.060 if his name is Mr. Anthony, but his father did not testify. I immediately started running his
01:14:05.720 records immediately. And I was curious, why did they move to Texas from Louisiana? You know,
01:14:11.320 the allegation was they were trying to get away from something bad. Well, he has a substantial
01:14:15.560 record. He's got lots of issues, lots of cases open in Louisiana. He's got, you know, where he's
01:14:20.780 had probation that hasn't been finished, you know, just different things, nothing super serious on
01:14:24.800 the record, but lots of little cases, lots of involvement with law enforcement, lots of
01:14:28.880 involvement with the court system. So it didn't surprise me at all. And I assumed immediately
01:14:32.640 that's why this man did not testify in defense of his son. I certainly didn't know that it rose to
01:14:37.300 the level of PTSD, but immediately when he didn't testify, I thought, okay, there's something that
01:14:41.620 they want to hide. Well, why are they trying to hide that? Because it would help Carmelo.
01:14:45.800 If he abused Carmelo, that would help him in mitigation. And that potentially could help,
01:14:50.840 yeah, it could help his self-defense too. I mean, if, you know, if they had an expert that says,
01:14:54.240 well, he was beaten and so, you know, he was more of quick to defend himself, that could have
01:14:59.160 potentially helped. Yeah. They didn't do any of that. So I think you're right that they did it
01:15:03.580 for money, because if they had done that, the donations are going to dry up. You know, why
01:15:08.140 else would you not? What other reason could there be Dave Ehrenberg? What if you're talking about
01:15:13.020 saving this kid's life? He's just been convicted by a jury of of murder. And you're the defense
01:15:18.760 lawyer. Aren't you? It was shocking how little mitigation he attempted. It was shocking that
01:15:24.900 they had the mother on the stand. He's I think one of the questions was like, was he sorry?
01:15:28.800 and she's like yeah he was sorry yeah he was that's it like there was no mitigation why wouldn't
01:15:34.140 you any normal parent would be like even if it weren't true most of us be like i beat him right
01:15:40.500 it's my fault 100 i did something i screwed the kid up whatever i have to say you know and like
01:15:46.340 it's like she didn't go there and now we're learning a lot yeah it's like criminal defense
01:15:51.740 101 when the parkland massacre happened you remember the killer who slaughtered 17 innocents
01:15:57.080 in Marjory Stone and Douglas High School,
01:15:58.900 one of his defenses at the penalty phase of the trial
01:16:02.600 was that his mother smoked while he was in the womb.
01:16:06.360 So this is like-
01:16:07.420 Oh my God.
01:16:08.260 I mean, this is like-
01:16:08.920 So did my mom.
01:16:09.600 I think it explains a lot.
01:16:10.960 Yeah, my mom did too.
01:16:12.060 My mom probably drank when I was in the womb,
01:16:13.080 but that would explain a lot too.
01:16:14.660 Yeah, my mom's defense was never in the first three months.
01:16:17.220 Yeah, yeah.
01:16:17.900 After that, you can have a glass of red wine once a week.
01:16:19.940 It explains everything about my SAT score.
01:16:22.740 Keep going, Dave.
01:16:23.620 It's true though.
01:16:24.760 No, it's funny how all of our mothers did that.
01:16:27.080 But, yes, this is an area it's ripe for bringing up and penalty phases and mitigation.
01:16:33.140 But it's interesting.
01:16:34.260 You know, all this stuff comes out now that they had a deal that wasn't honored.
01:16:38.000 It wasn't brought up during the trial.
01:16:39.300 In fact, the judge kept asking the defense lawyer, OK, are we all good?
01:16:43.560 There's no nothing, no deals or anything.
01:16:46.480 Everyone is happy with each other.
01:16:48.280 And there was none of this stuff brought up during the trial, only after the result was bad.
01:16:52.960 Now it's like, OK, now we have to complain about this.
01:16:55.520 And also, there are at least 600,000 reasons not to besmirch the parents.
01:16:59.920 That's the amount of money that the parents raised from the Give, Send, Go fundraising
01:17:04.920 operation by the time of the trial.
01:17:07.380 So they had every reason not to bring their names up because they were raising a lot of
01:17:12.440 money and there are a lot of questions of where that money went.
01:17:16.280 Man, can I just ask my colleagues here, because, you know, I'm primarily in the tri-state area
01:17:21.300 and you're in Florida and Georgia.
01:17:23.000 like do you guys have these handshake agreements with prosecutors like all right i won't do this
01:17:29.100 and you know in a murder case you know maybe if it's a dewey or something like that but i mean i
01:17:33.340 you know we just that just doesn't exist in my world no that does not exist we put everything
01:17:37.540 on the record we would have it in writing there is no way i would you know depend to have my
01:17:42.180 entire defense based on some backdoor gentleman's agreement that wasn't even ironed out i would have
01:17:46.560 very specific things that's ridiculous how about you dave you're just in the business of prosecuting
01:17:51.920 For 12 years when I was state attorney, our office would not have entered into some side deals with defense lawyers.
01:18:00.740 You do that, and that is just – you're risking having your conviction overturned on appeal.
01:18:06.540 You're also risking the reputation of your office because there's inevitably going to be disputes.
01:18:10.500 Oh, you didn't live up to that because once the defense loses, they're going to point to something in that deal and say you're the problem because they don't like to admit that they're the problem.
01:18:19.140 So what Camarillo Anthony should do is that realize he's not going to get a new trial and then do his direct appeals and on his appeals, do an ineffective assistance of counsel claim.
01:18:29.060 Blame your lawyers. Maybe that's his best shot of getting out of prison.
01:18:32.800 Yeah, no, it's true. I was shocked to see the prosecutor admitting, yeah, we did have this agreement.
01:18:37.180 It's like, why? Why would you do that? What do you what do you what?
01:18:40.600 Well, has he put has like we're kind of ripping on this whole thing, but like, is there a chance that this judge won't see it as a hail?
01:18:47.780 I don't think I don't think the prosecutor had the had they had this gentleman's agreement that the prosecutor is admitting they had and they introduced the evidence of the dream with the licking the blood off the knife.
01:18:59.680 But I don't know. They didn't breach the agreement to such a degree that it changed the facts of the case. Right. There's something called harmless error.
01:19:07.600 So is this I mean, the facts of this case are indisputable, indisputed. So it's it wasn't like, oh, we didn't know if he was going to be guilty or not guilty on a knife's edge.
01:19:16.460 And this one little thing that the prosecutor said that he said he shouldn't have said is what made the verdict happen.
01:19:21.760 It's just, again, it goes back to harmless, harmless error analysis.
01:19:26.000 Yeah, I see it as the defense took a gamble on this agreement, which does sound like it was kind of a good agreement for the defense.
01:19:34.540 Yeah, well, this stuff doesn't come in.
01:19:36.240 I don't know why the prosecutor wouldn't fight to put that in.
01:19:38.640 I mean, it's amazing.
01:19:39.620 This prosecutor is like, I'm going to get in a conviction with or without this.
01:19:42.240 I might as well make it as bulletproof as I can.
01:19:44.060 But so but the defense agreed to it. And only now do they want another bite at the apple because that now with the benefit of 2020 hindsight, they say, oh, it didn't work, didn't work out.
01:19:52.380 So I'm just going to say whatever I agreed to was was a problem. And it was a little funky.
01:19:56.780 So maybe I'll get a judge to say this was too funky for me. And it's a murder trial. So I'm reversing this.
01:20:01.880 But I agree. I don't think that's what's going to happen here. I think the judge is going to say no retrial for you.
01:20:06.980 All right. I want to move on because we we talked a bit about was there domestic violence inside the Carmelo Anthony home?
01:20:12.140 Well, there was domestic violence inside Hayden Panettiere's home by this disgusting boyfriend. 0.97
01:20:19.320 I mean, this guy is the lowest of the low. 0.82
01:20:21.680 I cannot believe, and I'm so sad that this woman spent a big portion of the last six, seven years with this guy.
01:20:28.140 They met in 2018. 0.99
01:20:29.480 By 2019, he was abusing her.
01:20:31.780 By 2020, there was a criminal case against him.
01:20:34.720 Um, and he, he, what he, I can't remember right now, whether he was found guilty or
01:20:41.680 pleaded guilty, either way, there was a guilty result.
01:20:44.120 He was convicted of punching her in the face.
01:20:47.880 The police saw her right after there was no question that it happened.
01:20:50.620 He's admitted to it, um, some jail time, some probation and reportedly a five-year
01:20:56.220 restraining order, which neither one of them lived up to.
01:20:59.460 She invited him back into her life. 0.99
01:21:01.180 This is a pattern many domestic violence survivors are familiar with.
01:21:06.160 And now the reporting on this case has just come out that the DEA is now involved in this in investigating where those drugs came from, that she reportedly had like a suitcase full of drugs with her.
01:21:22.880 that there's a new report out today
01:21:26.300 that three months ago
01:21:28.580 when she was on her media tour,
01:21:30.480 like, this is my victory moment.
01:21:32.200 I'm together now. 1.00
01:21:33.900 She was doing drugs then 1.00
01:21:35.600 that she tried to order whippets. 1.00
01:21:37.840 Yeah, she was doing weird drugs. 1.00
01:21:39.380 Nitrous oxide? 1.00
01:21:40.360 Yeah, I mean.
01:21:41.100 Isn't that what you get at the dentist?
01:21:42.540 Yeah, that's like teenager high school stuff.
01:21:45.460 Yeah, when you were kids,
01:21:46.500 you'd put it in a balloon
01:21:47.420 and it's almost like sucking a helium.
01:21:49.060 I mean, it'll talk like this.
01:21:50.040 And it lasts for like 60 seconds.
01:21:51.800 It's really fast.
01:21:54.500 It makes your head very long.
01:21:55.240 It's a 60 second.
01:21:56.900 I think we're too old.
01:21:58.080 We're not the right demo.
01:21:59.160 But clearly, Megan, to your point, you know, my law partner is retired Judge John Leventhal.
01:22:04.160 He was the first domestic violence judge in the United States of America 25 years, 30
01:22:09.660 years ago now, where we didn't really know domestic violence because common sense would
01:22:14.940 dictate if anyone punches you in the face, you're not really going to hang it.
01:22:19.560 Maybe it's your brother or your sister.
01:22:20.960 But besides that, you're going to get away, especially of means. 0.99
01:22:24.120 Like a lot of women get trapped because of the finances, right? 1.00
01:22:26.500 They can't leave. 1.00
01:22:27.460 Or children.
01:22:28.480 Right.
01:22:28.720 There's a child and then the finances.
01:22:31.180 But there is a psychological aspect to this where you get like this locked in. 0.99
01:22:36.920 And sometimes the women snap. 0.64
01:22:38.500 And we have created a defense to murder called Battered Woman Syndrome. 0.74
01:22:42.600 There's a whole TV series called Snapped.
01:22:44.720 Right.
01:22:45.420 I've been on it.
01:22:46.500 I have.
01:22:47.180 I'm like, well, not me, but my client has been on it.
01:22:50.260 But yes, and it looks like that's what happened here.
01:22:53.160 This woman had the means. 0.73
01:22:54.280 She had the means to escape.
01:22:55.700 But I guess it's the combination of the domestic violence, PTSD, and then the drug addiction, sadly, tragically led to her death.
01:23:03.880 Yes.
01:23:04.220 Okay.
01:23:04.520 Now, Debbie Murphy tells me via WebMD, whippets or nitrous oxide are popular inhalant drugs.
01:23:10.200 You may also hear them referred to as whippets or whippets.
01:23:12.720 It's the same thing.
01:23:13.200 The drug gets its name from whipped cream aerosol canisters that people open to misuse
01:23:18.540 the gas inside.
01:23:20.260 Nitrous oxide cuts off oxygen to the brain, creating a euphoric high that lowers your
01:23:24.340 mental and physical pain.
01:23:25.600 All right.
01:23:25.780 So I'm still not clear on how it differs from like what they give you at the dentist, but
01:23:30.320 okay.
01:23:30.960 I've never had it at my dentist, but I once, I've told my eyes, once I had a laser done
01:23:35.540 on my knees, Ashley, you'll appreciate this.
01:23:38.060 You know, when you age, your, your, your, your skin starts to sag around your.
01:23:42.280 and I didn't want
01:23:44.240 sagging skin on my knees so I had this
01:23:46.560 laser procedure done and
01:23:48.120 they gave me the nitrous oxide
01:23:49.680 so two things the nitrous oxide only
01:23:52.580 works very briefly it works like
01:23:54.260 for like 15 seconds
01:23:55.180 and secondly that
01:23:58.400 laser procedure worked man
01:24:00.140 because the knees look so
01:24:02.380 good after like what would your
01:24:04.160 Nana say about you getting your knees
01:24:06.020 lazy why not 1.00
01:24:07.640 she called me a stupid jackass 1.00
01:24:09.340 she said it not me 1.00
01:24:11.520 You never said it, not me.
01:24:12.720 I'm just saying, this is the only time I had the nitrous oxide,
01:24:14.680 which I think is what you had.
01:24:15.680 Anyway, whatever, I digress.
01:24:17.560 So now the DEA is involved,
01:24:20.100 and this, to me, spells serious trouble for this boyfriend
01:24:22.840 who was with her, along with his brother, when she died.
01:24:26.760 And by the way, the reporting yesterday,
01:24:28.540 we didn't do a show on this yesterday,
01:24:30.500 was that they didn't call 911 to report that Hayden was there dead
01:24:35.660 until 1.50 in the afternoon,
01:24:38.920 and Brian, the boyfriend, was still asleep.
01:24:41.200 Yeah, it was the brother to the reports. OK, so you're asleep at two o'clock in the afternoon.
01:24:46.800 You're doing the drugs, too, in my opinion. That's what's likely to come out.
01:24:50.300 And you tell me whether, Dave, the DEA getting involved in this telegraphs.
01:24:55.740 Yeah. Federal charges may be under consideration. Yeah.
01:24:59.180 Look what happened to Matthew Perry. The DEA got involved there because they're going to go find the source of the drugs.
01:25:04.600 It used to be the law enforcement officers would just say, OK, it's another drug abuser who's died now.
01:25:12.060 A day that days we look at the chain and try to find the ones who sold them the drugs.
01:25:16.660 The problem is a lot of people who are in the throes of addiction have a number of drug dealers on speed dial.
01:25:22.320 So it can be tough. But now you have the boyfriend who is involved and he's got a criminal pass.
01:25:27.240 He's got a rap sheet. And so I think there's a lot more to it.
01:25:30.660 I don't think this will be the end of this investigation.
01:25:33.240 And one more thing, Megan, maybe you wouldn't have had saggy knees if your mom hadn't smoked during pregnancy.
01:25:41.840 Once again, back to my mother's decisions. 0.98
01:25:45.140 I mean, most of us born in the 70s have a picture with our mothers with their big pregnant bellies, like resting a martini glass. 0.99
01:25:51.020 With a cigarette in their hand. 0.61
01:25:52.300 With a cigarette in their hand.
01:25:54.160 Yeah, with a cigarette in their hand.
01:25:55.620 Makes you stronger, makes you stronger.
01:25:58.240 Yeah, that's right, exactly.
01:25:59.480 So you tell me, Ashley, would you be worried?
01:26:02.640 I feel like this guy's defense attorney who represented him in his domestic violence cases is probably calling him saying, keep your mouth shut.
01:26:10.780 Oh, yeah. Don't talk to the feds. Don't be helpful. Definitely.
01:26:14.740 And there was a report just yesterday that cops were seen there now.
01:26:18.880 I guess he and the brother are reportedly now staying with their mother, like their family of origin, Betty Ellison.
01:26:23.340 And yesterday at 820 in the morning, page six of The New York Post reporting exclusively that cops were seen sniffing around the home.
01:26:32.320 They came. They knocked. Nobody answered, although people were inside. They left. They
01:26:37.460 were reportedly conducting a, quote, welfare check. And then I think they went back and did
01:26:43.880 it again. So they're definitely sniffing around. Oh, yeah. If I was Brian, the boyfriend, I would
01:26:49.000 be really worried. I'd first be worried about his brother. So his brother, Zach, is a preacher and
01:26:53.540 has apparently had, you know, strong feelings for Hayden in his life, whether or not they dated.
01:26:58.900 There's been some rumors about that, but the reports are that he was just distraught when
01:27:03.020 they found her. So if he cared for her that much, and if he thinks his brother had something to do
01:27:06.760 with her death, I'd be really worried about the police talking to him from a defense perspective.
01:27:10.860 I'd also be worried about the DEA poking around because they're strong. And the DEA, when they
01:27:16.180 start asking questions, people start talking. People get real scared. And so if he gave her
01:27:20.440 these drugs, he had to get them from somewhere. He didn't make them. He got them from somewhere.
01:27:24.480 And folks are willing to talk when the feds come knocking. I wouldn't be as worried about the
01:27:28.300 state charges because most likely he probably was using the drugs with her. I mean, like you said,
01:27:32.800 he was sleeping till noon and there's actually defense in Tennessee state court. If they had
01:27:37.460 their own statute that you can be prosecuted if someone dies. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. And so in South
01:27:42.960 Carolina, they've got a statute where you can be prosecuted if someone dies while, you know,
01:27:47.420 they've basically taken drugs that you gave them. But if you did it together, that's a defense. So,
01:27:52.820 you know, he might have a defense to that. So crazy. But the feds, I'd be really worried about.
01:27:56.100 That's so wacky.
01:27:57.220 As long as you shoot yourself up, too, or take the drugs as well, then you can get out of jail.
01:28:01.320 It's a weird concept.
01:28:02.480 So here's the report from TMZ this morning, Arthur.
01:28:06.240 Police are not satisfied Hayden Penetier's death was a tragic overdose of prescribed meds because they are trying to determine if there could be criminal conduct behind it.
01:28:16.380 Law enforcement sources involved in the case tell TMZ they are conducting a death investigation to see if some illegality is behind her death.
01:28:24.820 They said, yeah, Wednesday, they went to the family home of her boyfriend, Brian Hickerson.
01:28:29.260 It would appear police want information from Brian regarding any circumstance that might be connected to her death.
01:28:35.560 And then, you know, my team went through and there's a bunch of possible charges that could be brought federally, which would explain the DEA's interest in all of this.
01:28:43.500 If Brian Hickerson provided the drugs.
01:28:46.400 i mean the person who the assistant who was getting the drugs from matthew perry
01:28:50.420 got ultimately sentenced to 41 months in prison but that's a great example of how it's kind of
01:28:58.800 easier to find who gets the drugs what dave said is right on a lot of these guys you know i'm
01:29:04.320 fortunately i've been involved with deceased families as well you know they want answers
01:29:08.520 right and then when you eventually get into their phone there's like eight numbers there's 10
01:29:12.900 numbers and yes you try to go back and see but then how do you prove well the drugs he got from
01:29:18.560 john on tuesday and then he got drugs from jose on wednesday how do you know which drugs he took
01:29:25.000 and which ones were had fentanyl and which ones didn't have fentanyl so as a prosecutor dave can
01:29:29.960 tell you it's very hard to eventually prosecute someone with perry it was it was that all of
01:29:35.920 those different drug dealers were going through one person right there was a bottleneck and it
01:29:39.580 went through them and you were able to much more easily prove he's the guy who actually handed them
01:29:44.340 the drugs but i gotta tell you maybe like i don't know if i have and i'll ask ashley and dave
01:29:49.480 overdosing on whippets is like not something i well i don't even think it's possible wasn't it
01:29:55.480 yeah i mean brain damage before death the report about that may ingestion or attempted ingestion
01:30:01.600 of drugs said it was both whippets and alcohol which she also shouldn't have been having if she 0.99
01:30:06.720 was a recovering alcoholic, as she was portraying. So it was multiple attempts to imbibe something,
01:30:12.700 some sort of substance to, you know, get a high at a time when she was on this book tour.
01:30:17.140 What were you going to say? Yeah. The guy who is the assistant to Matthew Perry, Iwamasa is his
01:30:21.460 name. He didn't just arrange for the drugs. He injected Perry with the fatal doses. Then he
01:30:27.040 left and he found Perry dead in the hot tub and he tried to cover it up. So his fingerprints were
01:30:31.600 all over this mess and he pled guilty not sure but don't you think this guy could go down if we
01:30:37.360 have no proof whatsoever of this but if he did give her the drugs even if there wasn't an injection
01:30:42.760 situation yeah he enabled if he was able to hand the drugs to her yes he could go down for it
01:30:48.120 they would need proof and then you have the brother perhaps testifying against his brother
01:30:53.320 especially if he if he was in love with her as Ashley mentioned so I this is a very interesting
01:31:00.580 situation that i think you will see some charges down the road but but uh arthur and i identified
01:31:06.580 the problem if you're going to identify the source if you're going to track the source there are so
01:31:10.740 many potential sources it's easier to get right at the bottleneck the brother or the the boyfriend
01:31:18.120 who would have been there to give her the drug all right stand by uh we're going to take a quick
01:31:24.460 break but we have more to do and then we got to hit on lindsey clancy more with our kelly's court
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01:32:23.040 with life insurance through ethos. Get your free quote at ethos.com slash MK. That is E-T-H-O-S.com
01:32:31.220 slash MK. Application times may vary. Rates may vary too. Joining me now, Dave Ehrenberg, Ashley
01:32:40.200 Merchant, and Arthur Idalla. I'm trying to find a note, which is why I'm distracted here.
01:32:44.440 On the Hayden Panettiere thing, just before we move on from that, did you guys see the reports
01:32:49.500 of her mother and what the mother said
01:32:51.660 after her death this week? 1.00
01:32:54.680 Now, her mother has emerged as like a villain 1.00
01:32:56.660 in this whole thing. 0.89
01:32:57.360 She sounds like she was a terrible mother. 0.97
01:32:59.280 First of all, you shove your kid into Hollywood,
01:33:01.500 you know, as a baby and thereafter.
01:33:04.700 It's such a terrible decision
01:33:06.420 and it's so harmful to the child.
01:33:07.920 It seems like reckless to me.
01:33:09.480 So now her daughter was on camera
01:33:11.580 and on the record in her book saying,
01:33:13.840 I went to my mom when I was 19.
01:33:16.520 She was 36 when she died this week
01:33:17.960 and said, Mom, you can't be both my manager and my mother.
01:33:20.680 Would you please just be my mother?
01:33:21.800 And the mother's response, according to Hayden, was, you owe me.
01:33:25.280 Wow. 0.80
01:33:25.880 And wouldn't let go of the money roll.
01:33:28.940 And now her name is Leslie Vogel.
01:33:30.720 She was a middling soap opera star in her day, 0.87
01:33:33.140 which is, you know, she didn't make it, 1.00
01:33:34.240 so she wanted the daughter to make it.
01:33:35.920 Vicariously living. 0.99
01:33:36.600 Yeah, recover her lost glory.
01:33:39.140 So here she shares her first public comments to NBC after Hayden died.
01:33:44.620 And this is what she said.
01:33:45.860 I mean, it's really crazy.
01:33:47.960 This is, as Debbie Murphit put it to me,
01:33:51.260 this sounds like something my doorman would say about me if I died.
01:33:54.580 Like, this is how detached it was.
01:33:57.000 I think Hayden was an amazingly talented person in so many departments.
01:34:02.260 And I think young people who grow up in the entertainment industry,
01:34:06.200 it is a struggle and it is a very challenging industry.
01:34:09.820 And it's not unusual for them to sadly find the wrong path.
01:34:15.440 What?
01:34:16.080 Is she on drugs? 0.58
01:34:16.680 like herself my god right that's what she said uh she said that her last conversation was in
01:34:23.840 october that they'd been texting a bit but not in some time no contact was a choice i made for
01:34:30.200 very specific reasons and you know certainly not for lack of care concern or love uh she said she
01:34:37.060 wished things could have been different i think it becomes very difficult to be true to yourself
01:34:40.980 i think hayden sadly lost her way and i wish it were different um yeah like that you hadn't been
01:34:49.700 her mother oh my god she did go on to say um she ripped on brian that was her other contribution
01:34:55.260 i wonder we can all agree on that he was a terrible person to have in hayden's life
01:34:59.000 she this this person in her life that we've been trying to get rid of for quite some time
01:35:02.660 was with her at her death that was brian hickerson there's a lot of history in the past that brian
01:35:08.060 has enabled Hayden many times.
01:35:10.500 And this is why her father and I had been concerned
01:35:12.400 for a long time about him.
01:35:15.140 By the way, there's another report out today
01:35:16.820 about this is a witness who lived next to Hayden
01:35:20.440 who said that she saw the stretcher taking Hayden out.
01:35:25.740 This is, I think, back a couple of years ago.
01:35:27.940 Not that long ago, maybe like 2025.
01:35:31.040 She said she was clearly terrified.
01:35:32.700 You could see the look in her eyes.
01:35:33.840 She was clearly battered.
01:35:35.260 You could see, I guess she had some bruising or something.
01:35:37.480 She identified her as being battered and she said she could see she was really scared.
01:35:41.480 And it's not like she slipped off a ladder and like bumped her head and they were taking her.
01:35:45.480 There was there were real issues.
01:35:47.020 And this is this is during the time where that restraining order would have been in place.
01:35:49.880 So she would they were both obviously willingly violating it.
01:35:52.560 But can I just tell you guys one other thing?
01:35:54.220 So Yashar Ali, who is a great reporter, he went back and found the statement that that the mother made after her memoir hit in May.
01:36:06.460 and it's even worse than the one i just read she says there's a personality style which manifests
01:36:15.320 as a need for control entitlement and a lack of empathy she's not speaking of herself she's
01:36:21.060 speaking of her daughter the major fear is that someone will see through the mask they present to
01:36:27.860 the world and discover who they truthfully are this condition cannot be fixed regardless of
01:36:32.880 continual efforts to support or comfort no matter the encouragement given it will never be enough
01:36:39.500 and listen to this after 20 years of trauma i took the advice of professionals and chose the
01:36:45.700 no contract contact route this is the mother saying she's been traumatized by 20 years from
01:36:50.800 hayden so what from 16 to 36 from all the time she was a huge star the child traumatized the
01:36:57.820 mother gosh she says as many parents of entertainment children know we are all too
01:37:02.620 familiar with the painful observation of watching the self-destructive paths they sometimes choose
01:37:06.900 no parent hopes for this scenario totally no responsibility for the fact that she put her
01:37:11.440 in the industry but she was a baby doing commercials one more sadly this is not sadly
01:37:16.840 this is out of our control you cannot save someone who does not want to be saved radical
01:37:22.280 acceptance is the most difficult challenge any parent must embrace unfortunately i've spent a
01:37:26.800 great deal of such um i've seen a great deal of such in my life experience i guess she's referring
01:37:33.520 to her 20 years of trauma caused by her rich famous daughter who only wanted a mother ashley
01:37:40.120 and couldn't get one didn't want her mother to run her career and do that just wanted her to
01:37:44.620 be a mother i mean she's got to feel some responsibility but it doesn't sound like 1.00
01:37:47.840 she's taking any responsibility at this point what a disgusting pig i'm sorry she said we're 1.00
01:37:53.560 ripping on our moms for a couple cigarettes while we were present they were pregnant with us this 1.00
01:37:58.700 this is actual abusiveness like this is actual abuse this kind of emotional abuse how about
01:38:03.420 i'm distraught about the loss of my daughter it's against the natural order to lose your child
01:38:08.120 unless i missed it i didn't hear any of that in there making this was a prepared statement this
01:38:12.860 wasn't spontaneous she had time to think about this and issue this she she gave an interview
01:38:17.800 to NBC and just went off on on how tough it was, I guess, for her when when Hayden was still alive
01:38:24.600 and how, you know, this arm's length like, geez, it's a tough business. She wasn't able to get it
01:38:29.940 back under control. It's like, no wonder this girl turned to drugs. You know, that's my takeaway. 1.00
01:38:36.180 All right, let's keep going. Maybe she had bad knees. You know, I could have helped her out. 0.99
01:38:40.180 She called me. She needed the one time was enough for that procedure, though. I mean, like one time
01:38:45.040 was plenty it hurt um okay lindsey clancy arthur and i was talking about this during the break 1.00
01:38:50.000 everyone knows you have to be nuts you have to be nuts on some level to kill your children like 0.99
01:38:54.880 that's that's basically what the defense has going for it right isn't that the number one 1.00
01:38:59.120 thing the defense has going for it which is like and she loved her kids only a crazy person would
01:39:03.480 kill their children right so how does the prosecution overcome that let me start with
01:39:09.880 you dave on that question i think the prosecution overcharged i think they should have focused on
01:39:14.060 a lesser charge, involuntary manslaughter. If you overcharge, you lose credibility with the jury.
01:39:19.100 It's going to be so hard to convict her first degree premeditated murder, especially because
01:39:24.980 they have medical experts that say, yes, sometimes she was lucid and you can be lucid even when you're
01:39:29.780 under the throes of psychosis. But I would focus on some of the things that the prosecution has
01:39:35.940 pointed out, and I would lean into that. So, for example, if Lindsay Clancy was completely consumed
01:39:41.220 by this postpartum psychosis,
01:39:43.700 then why was her first question
01:39:47.120 when she woke up in the hospital
01:39:48.840 about getting herself legal representation?
01:39:52.120 Not about her kids, right?
01:39:54.060 Not about anguish over their deaths.
01:39:56.380 And so I would try to poke holes in the defense's narrative 1.00
01:40:00.600 that here's this poor woman who couldn't control herself. 1.00
01:40:03.120 She was under all these drugs and psychosis.
01:40:06.100 And you say, well, after the fog cleared,
01:40:09.300 she didn't ask about her kids.
01:40:11.020 She didn't seem too caught up about it, except when she's in front of you, the jurors here at trial.
01:40:16.360 So I would try to do that. But in the end, I think the prosecution has a tough case.
01:40:19.240 I think they overcharge. I'd be surprised if they can get a conviction even of a lesser charge.
01:40:24.720 The other thing is, Ashley, you know, there's she sent the husband out.
01:40:28.460 She sent him to the CVS and to the restaurant to pick up food for the family.
01:40:33.040 It seemed calculated. She had Googled how long the trip would take.
01:40:36.100 she seemed like a methodical killer getting rid of the one eyewitness who would stop it yeah and
01:40:41.540 that you know she was determined to sort of lay the plan out and then there was testimony this
01:40:45.420 week from somebody uh in the facility with her where she's being held saying the the one date
01:40:51.500 like the dates that she never acknowledges are her children's birthdays she seemed absolutely
01:40:56.780 fine on each one of their what would have been their birthdays uh having really good strong days
01:41:02.680 where she was kind of enjoying herself
01:41:04.560 and doesn't seem to miss them.
01:41:08.500 But one of the things that I think is important to remember
01:41:10.420 is that she's medicated.
01:41:11.860 So like Dave's talking about what she says
01:41:13.360 when she first wakes up,
01:41:14.440 she's intubated at that point.
01:41:15.820 She is heavily sedated at that point.
01:41:17.780 And now when she is in this psychiatric facility,
01:41:21.020 she is on a lot of medication.
01:41:22.760 I guarantee you she is on a lot of medication
01:41:24.880 and it dulls her.
01:41:26.380 And so anytime her reaction
01:41:28.560 to maybe her children's birthday,
01:41:30.120 I'm sure that they're watching her very closely
01:41:32.180 on those days. I'm sure they're trying to keep her occupied because they know her suicide risk
01:41:35.620 is super high. They've also got her on some heavy medication. Stand by. Hold the rest of that
01:41:40.140 thought. I'm going to hold you guys over because there's a lot more to discuss in this case,
01:41:43.180 including why they're ending early and why the jurors were called up one by one this morning.
01:41:47.700 Stand by. You don't wait until your house is on fire to install a smoke detector and you don't
01:41:53.040 wait until the wind and rain hammer your windows and the power goes out to prepare for a hurricane.
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01:43:44.620 Hey, everyone. It's me, Megan Kelly. I've got some exciting news.
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01:43:53.680 It's called the Megan Kelly Channel, and it is where you will hear the truth, unfiltered, with no agenda and no apologies.
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01:44:20.400 Were you aware that on May 26, 2023, that the defendant was observed by staff in a note stating that she was visible along the unit hallways, self-propelling her wheelchair?
01:44:35.280 She had a visit with her mother. They ate and played games during the visit.
01:44:38.380 are you aware of that that would have been approximately four months after the incident
01:44:43.360 and uh on the date of Callan's first birthday right yes how about on January 24th 24 24
01:44:52.260 where she's observed in a note from Tewksbury State Hospital a patient was visible in the
01:44:58.040 milieu engageable with both staff and select peers that she was pleasant during interactions
01:45:04.520 self-propelling in wheelchair in the halls spending much of the morning and early afternoon
01:45:09.240 in her room and hall on her electronics um do you recall reading that record not specifically
01:45:15.220 and january 24th 2024 would have been the year anniversary of the incident correct yes
01:45:20.600 this is the prosecutor trying to establish that lindsey clancy's handling the anniversaries of
01:45:27.580 her children's, well, birthdays, you know, their birthday in heaven. Um, just fine without much
01:45:35.900 emotionality. Uh, welcome back to the MK show. Arthur Adal is here, Dave Ehrenberg as well,
01:45:40.440 and Ashley Merchant all back with me. Um, so let's talk a bit about what's happening inside
01:45:45.980 that courtroom as they're, you know, trying to make their case. Then we'll get into what happened
01:45:50.940 with the jurors today. They had Lindsay's mom take the stand and her name is Paula Musgrove.
01:45:57.100 here's a bit of what she said in sat why don't we just play them back to back 28 and 29
01:46:03.260 do you recall the end of january that she made a statement to you about the medication in her
01:46:09.420 opinion what it was doing to her mind yes what did she say she said that she couldn't remember
01:46:16.180 anything the medication was pretty much just destroying her mind and it wasn't her she said
01:46:22.540 that this isn't me. I just want to feel better and enjoy my kids again.
01:46:26.860 The next message that you're referring to, would that be on
01:46:31.300 October 20th of 2022? Yes. And do you have that on your phone right now? I do. Can you just pull
01:46:41.740 that up for us? I can. Just give me a moment. Would you read that for the jury? Mom, will you
01:46:48.640 please come up and stay with me for a bit. I'm really sick. Something is wrong. I had horrible
01:46:55.080 insomnia all night and I just don't know how I'm going to get through the day. I started taking the
01:47:01.380 medicine my doctor prescribed for anxiety and I think it's made things worse. It's just really
01:47:07.640 scary and I don't want to be alone. So, Ashley, this is the defense trying to paint a picture of
01:47:16.320 a woman who's deteriorating on medicine that is not being well managed by her physicians
01:47:22.320 and recognizing that she's changing in a way that's very disturbing to her and the mother
01:47:28.900 backing her up on it.
01:47:30.080 There was also testimony that the mother had texted Lindsay after the last visit, so great
01:47:34.760 to see you doing better, which was a day before the children were killed.
01:47:38.160 And the mother kind of tried to disown it, being like, oh, I was just trying to be encouraging.
01:47:41.680 I didn't actually see her better.
01:47:43.540 Yeah. But I mean, try to explain for us what they're really arguing over, because there's no doubt that Lindsay Clancy killed the children. Right. There's no doubt she strangled them one by one with an exercise cord. Not that not the bands. They've been referring to them as like the bands. No, the cords like a bungee looking cord, which is just brutal in the basement. 0.90
01:48:08.200 And then she jumped out the window. The only real debate is whether she did it because she had postpartum psychosis or she was just regular nuts. Right. Right. Like to a certain extent, anybody's nuts who kills their children. Right. Exactly. Just, you know, well, the prosecution has charged it, though, as first degree murder. So they're saying that she did this on purpose, that she had a plan. She wanted her kids dead. 0.90
01:48:30.300 So I think what the defense is doing is they're building really a timeline.
01:48:33.980 And I expect in closing arguments, we'll see this timeline where Lindsay was reaching out
01:48:37.880 for help repeatedly. 0.99
01:48:39.260 They're changing medications.
01:48:40.640 And I think one thing that might resonate with the jury are these medications.
01:48:44.200 I mean, they're medications that are meant to alter your brain.
01:48:46.960 That's what they do.
01:48:48.120 And they were prescribing these.
01:48:49.380 She was going on them.
01:48:50.260 She was going off of them.
01:48:51.280 They were doubling dosage.
01:48:52.340 They were switching dosages.
01:48:53.860 Some of those actually are antidepressants that could drive you into mania.
01:48:57.640 We had a guest on our show, MK True Crime, earlier this week who treats actual postpartum
01:49:03.980 moms regularly and was talking to us about that and talking about how you don't act a
01:49:08.700 certain way all the time.
01:49:09.960 It fluctuates and was talking about how, you know, you could be in psychosis for one minute
01:49:13.700 and then you seem normal and fine the next minute and how this is really something that
01:49:17.600 fluctuates regularly.
01:49:19.080 So I think at the end, I think the defense will tie all of this up in a bow for us.
01:49:23.220 They're just laying the little pieces.
01:49:24.420 they're putting all the little bricks out and then they're going to build this house in closing
01:49:28.100 where they say, look, you know, she's repeatedly reaching out. And, you know, I think having her
01:49:33.000 reach out to her mom, that's something that's reasonable. That's something that she would be
01:49:37.360 honest with her mom. You know, I need help. And I think that really helps the defense because it
01:49:41.900 shows that she really did need help and she really was suffering. There's the cross-examination,
01:49:47.920 however uh of the mother paula musgrove and here's a bit of it south 31 and when she made
01:49:54.640 the statement that she had thoughts of harming the children did either you or patrick ask her
01:49:59.900 what she meant by that i believe i remember pat asking her if she felt like she couldn't be alone
01:50:06.700 with the children and she said no and after she made those statements did uh did you have any
01:50:14.500 thoughts about committing her? No. Did you have any thoughts about having her come stay with you
01:50:21.340 in Connecticut away from the children? No. Were you concerned for the children's safety at that
01:50:27.420 point in time? No, because I was there. Sorry, I should have played the facade that came before
01:50:35.480 that, which is where she testified that Lindsay did say she had thoughts of harming the children.
01:50:39.920 And the cross-examination was basically, did she say she didn't think she could be alone
01:50:44.480 with them and the mother saying no i mean it does make you wonder like as a parent if your spouse 0.96
01:50:49.760 says i'm having thoughts of hurting my children i don't really give a shit what the answer is 0.93
01:50:55.260 do you think you can be alone with them no game over but maybe you just asked ashley a question 0.97
01:50:59.700 like what's this trial really about it what it's really about so everyone understands is housing
01:51:04.460 where is she going to spend the next three or four decades we know she's not it's not going to 1.00
01:51:10.080 be walking around society so the prosecutor wants her to be in a prison and the defense wants her
01:51:15.800 to be in a mental hospital and i don't know the state of mental hospitals in massachusetts but
01:51:19.780 where i am there it's not like the hospital where you've given birth it's it's a it's not a pleasant
01:51:26.000 place to be and i know in new york because i've been in this position people who get convicted
01:51:30.800 of murder actually wind up being out in society sooner than people who are committed because they
01:51:37.320 committed murder by reason they're found not guilty by reason of mental disease a defect
01:51:41.440 because if you shoot someone because he's in a gang and you're dealing drugs by the time you're 0.97
01:51:47.840 30 years later they think that that's over but when you're nuts and you did something 0.77
01:51:52.580 i don't mean to say nuts but you know what i mean the doctors don't know can you come out
01:51:59.240 in society can you not come out in society you did this without rational thought the gang member
01:52:04.140 that kills the gang member there's a lot of rational there's street cred there's money there's
01:52:08.180 pressure from gangs but you do something like this they don't know if you're going to do it again in 0.98
01:52:12.940 some form or fashion so this trial is just about where is she going to be housed warehouse for the
01:52:18.420 next 30 or 40 years until she dies i mean i don't know david so the people who are very angry at her
01:52:24.360 for these murders you know for these killings which one should they be rooting for because
01:52:30.480 what if it is like involuntary manslaughter included as a lesser charge? Because if she
01:52:36.500 gets that, that's a quick turnaround. She'd be in and out in a relatively small amount of years
01:52:43.580 versus if she gets sentenced to a mental health facility where she might have to stay longer.
01:52:49.200 Without any oversight too, Megan. I mean, if she gets out quickly, there's no lengthy probation.
01:52:53.840 If she's in a mental institution, if she's released from that, she's going to go to sort
01:52:58.120 of a step-down program. She'll go to a less restrictive alternative, but she'll still have 0.72
01:53:01.860 to check in. So she'll still have to be medicated. She'll have to maybe take long-acting injectables, 0.51
01:53:06.340 maybe make sure that, you know, she can prove she's going to therapy, things like that. There's
01:53:09.660 going to be some oversight where if she got convicted of something lesser and, you know,
01:53:13.020 essentially got time served, there's no oversight, nothing. Is it a lesser? Do we know whether there
01:53:17.820 are lesser included charges that the jury's going to be charged with? We don't usually know until
01:53:21.980 the very end, but most likely they will ask for it. So what the law says is if there is any
01:53:26.940 evidence to support that, the judge has to give those charges. So typically the defense would ask
01:53:31.000 for them at the end. It's a strategy call though. And we may see a fight over that. Kevin Reddington
01:53:35.300 may not want that. He may not want to give them that option. The defense will want all or nothing.
01:53:40.880 The prosecution should hope they can get the lesser included in there. If they get involuntary
01:53:44.540 manslaughter, you can get her up to 20 years in prison. But keep in mind, she's also sentenced
01:53:49.880 to life with paralysis because of what she did and threw herself out the window. She's in that
01:53:54.880 wheelchair for life. So that's something she's going to have to deal with. And if she gets sent 1.00
01:53:59.000 to a mental hospital, she could be released early on. I mean, especially if she shows extended 0.97
01:54:03.600 periods of being lucid like she did beforehand. She was very calculated in her planning. So perhaps
01:54:09.000 if she is seen as lucid again after she's acquitted by reasons of insanity, she could get out of that
01:54:15.880 mental institution early. So it's a tough call. Arthur's right. She's not going free no matter
01:54:21.000 what it's a question of whether she is in a prison or a mental institution but she'll be in 0.98
01:54:26.420 that wheelchair for life i mean who i feel no sympathy for her there like you you killed your 0.55
01:54:32.740 kids and you jumped out a window okay that's you know you know what that's that's why you're going
01:54:36.100 to be in a wheelchair oh well david i don't think that i don't think any doctors doctors would have
01:54:40.180 to i think recommend for her to be released and then the judge would have to agree with them that
01:54:44.240 she should be released if she's in a mental institution i don't see especially a case of 0.80
01:54:48.700 this notoriety three deaths and there are children i don't see any doctor signing dying anytime soon
01:54:54.900 that that she's going anywhere but i do have a question about like what is that what is he
01:55:00.780 arguing dave what is what is she the prosecutors of she is she is her because like this isn't a
01:55:06.320 case where lindsey clancy was having an affair and the guy didn't want children you know we saw that 0.99
01:55:12.440 right we've seen that before um so she wanted to get rid of them and she wanted a new life like 1.00
01:55:17.160 she threw herself out the window like she this woman clearly in my view clearly wanted to die 1.00
01:55:23.020 she wasn't well there's tons of documentation that she was losing it mentally she did try to 0.73
01:55:28.880 seek help repeatedly these doctors seemed terrible um not managing her medication once they gave it
01:55:35.580 to her so like i'm not excusing anything i i think she should probably be convicted i'm not totally
01:55:40.280 convinced she heard the voices at all but my point is simply like what's the prosecution's theory 0.80
01:55:45.020 that, like, she is nuts, she's just not legally nuts? 1.00
01:55:48.960 Or is it like, no, she's a cold, calculating bitch 1.00
01:55:51.860 who decided to take out those kids, 1.00
01:55:54.380 and then this was a fake suicide attempt 1.00
01:55:56.140 when she jumped out the window?
01:55:57.280 That's it.
01:55:57.760 No, it's the latter, and that's the problem
01:56:00.140 because she looks at least to some sympathetic there
01:56:03.580 in front of her, in front of the jury, in the wheelchair.
01:56:05.920 She was bawling when she heard about the kids at the trial,
01:56:10.360 and there's no evidence.
01:56:11.680 The autopsy report.
01:56:12.680 The autopsy report. 1.00
01:56:14.060 Also, this is not like Casey Anthony, where Casey Anthony wanted to go on the party scene and get rid of her daughter.
01:56:19.980 Or like Susan Smith, who was buried with these three kids, like loaded down with them and wanted to go and sleep around.
01:56:27.940 So this is different.
01:56:29.740 There's really no evidence that she was out there on Tinder trying to have a new life.
01:56:33.020 And that's why it's going to be harder for a jury to say, what is the motivation other than that she was crazy, that she was overmedicated?
01:56:39.940 And the fact that she threw herself out the window and, according to her own experts, landed on her head, her neck, in an attempt to kill herself, that will, I think, move enough jurors that it's going to be nearly impossible to get a conviction unanimously beyond a reasonable doubt.
01:56:55.060 Is there a chance then, I mean, like, it's just now dawning on me that, is there a possibility of not guilty?
01:57:03.220 No.
01:57:03.660 Okay, it's either.
01:57:04.700 No.
01:57:05.200 They're admitting that she did it.
01:57:06.500 That's why you're saying it's just an argument over where she's going to go.
01:57:09.940 that's where it is and and what dave just said though it is hard to say that she had evil in 0.81
01:57:16.020 her heart like unlike andre yates right did she drown the kids but then like she was that she 0.99
01:57:20.920 didn't wind up in a wheelchair i mean megan you're diving out of diving she didn't jump out the
01:57:25.960 window she dove out the window and landed on her head she's pretty clear she wanted to die yeah i
01:57:31.720 accept that i have been i'm convinced that she wanted to die um i don't with the voices or
01:57:37.420 without, but I'm not convinced on the, on the psychosis. I'm really not like, so if I, if I'm
01:57:43.460 a juror, Ashley, and I have to find psychosis, you know, that she's hearing the voices, which
01:57:47.620 she's, there's been some testimony. Um, I'm not, I'm not going to find that, but is she nuts? 0.88
01:57:53.040 Like, did she do this because she just decided, because it seems like the prosecutor is trying
01:57:57.020 to say she, she, that we've talked about that Facebook post that Lindsay Clancy made about
01:58:02.600 her son about how he's just so difficult and like all day long and he won't agree with anything and
01:58:08.760 she sounds extremely frustrated it seems like the prosecutor's trying to say
01:58:12.920 she's a nasty short-tempered mother who just hated the burden of motherhood right there's no evidence 1.00
01:58:19.700 of that i i well i mean you know some bitching about she does talk about her children in a way 1.00
01:58:25.640 that's very off-putting i mean i i can't imagine publicly complaining about my child the way she 1.00
01:58:31.680 did about him. But right. Is that really where the prosecution's going? They're not going with
01:58:36.440 no, no, no, no, no, no. There has to be like the defense now has the burden of proving psychosis.
01:58:42.400 And trust me, members of the jury, they won't be able to do that. Right. And that's not what
01:58:45.780 they're doing. They just don't really have any evidence that she wanted her kids dead. I think
01:58:49.240 that is the big gaping hole in this case. Everybody who's testified said, I mean, she was a labor and
01:58:53.960 delivery nurse. She wanted a large family. She loved her family, loved her kids and that she 0.93
01:58:58.620 was suffering. Luckily, they don't have to prove that she actually heard a voice. So, you know,
01:59:03.820 that's one of the things that they keep talking about. And it definitely, yes, it definitely
01:59:07.340 helps. The defense has a burden here too, since they've asserted not guilty by reason of mental
01:59:11.500 defect. Exactly. As long as they think that her mental, essentially her mental illness is what
01:59:16.120 caused this. I mean, essentially that's what they've got to argue and that's what they've got
01:59:19.220 to prove. As long as they do that, then she could get the not guilty by reason of insanity. I also
01:59:23.780 think it's important because one of the experts who has actually witnessed her, her psychologist
01:59:28.460 or actually it was her psychiatrist
01:59:30.080 who started treating her right after this,
01:59:32.260 has been seeing her,
01:59:33.140 has seen her over 50 times in the mental institute.
01:59:35.520 He testified that she is actually so suicidal
01:59:38.480 still to this day
01:59:39.420 that she requires one-on-one supervision.
01:59:41.800 So she can't really be out of anyone's sight
01:59:43.620 because she is that close to being suicidal
01:59:45.820 at any given time.
01:59:47.320 So I think that, you know, they've spent-
01:59:48.700 Unless it comes to the kids' birthdays,
01:59:50.420 in which case she's like, I'm good.
01:59:52.180 She's playing backgammon.
01:59:53.280 I'm good. 0.62
01:59:53.800 You know what she brought up, Ashley,
01:59:54.940 that I forgot? 1.00
01:59:55.760 She was a labor and delivery nurse.
01:59:57.120 Hold that thought
01:59:57.520 because I got to let Dave go.
01:59:58.460 I know he's got another obligation.
01:59:59.640 Thank you so much for being here, Dave.
02:00:00.940 Great to see you as always.
02:00:01.960 Thank you.
02:00:02.580 To be continued.
02:00:03.940 Yeah, Ashley and Arthur continue. 1.00
02:00:05.920 A labor and delivery nurse. 1.00
02:00:07.600 The mother was. 0.99
02:00:08.960 I mean, that's someone 1.00
02:00:09.800 who deals with kids all the time. 1.00
02:00:11.700 Be baby.
02:00:12.320 I mean, there's an eight month old
02:00:13.340 that died here.
02:00:14.000 I mean, that just adds
02:00:15.860 an aggravating factor of,
02:00:19.120 I mean, again,
02:00:20.160 Maggie, you started off the same 0.95
02:00:21.140 with saying you got to be crazy 0.92
02:00:22.180 to do this. 0.89
02:00:23.220 And, you know,
02:00:24.340 If I was the prosecutor, the elected DA or whatever they call them there, state attorney, I would have worked this out where I would have just said, look, just agree.
02:00:34.280 Lindsay Clancy was a nurse, but it was her mother who was a labor and delivery nurse for like 38 years.
02:00:39.640 I don't know what kind of a nurse Lindsay was, but there was testimony. 0.71
02:00:42.220 She was like super fastidious. 0.64
02:00:44.060 She was like down to the minute on the kids' schedules, including the moment they had to be asleep.
02:00:50.300 I mean, not everybody's cut out for motherhood. 0.99
02:00:52.440 I got to say it truly like you can't be this fucking uptight and have kids. 0.99
02:00:57.100 You just like the curse. 1.00
02:00:58.120 You're not supposed to curse. 0.95
02:00:59.780 She did that weird sleep training thing.
02:01:01.920 I remember that.
02:01:02.560 I was like, I thought that I didn't even know that was a thing.
02:01:04.460 Still some weird sleep training thing where she was so rigid with the sleep.
02:01:07.680 And this third kid just didn't want to do the sleep training.
02:01:10.560 But yeah, that was odd.
02:01:12.180 But it seems like she comes from a long line of labor and delivery nurses, too, because her, you know, her mother in law, her mother, she was to me.
02:01:19.320 and I think a lot of jurors will agree with this, that means she likes babies. You're not going
02:01:24.860 there delivering babies if you don't like them. And so when she's not in this psychosis, she likes
02:01:30.400 babies. There's been a lot of evidence she wanted a lot of kids and that she was otherwise a good
02:01:34.620 mom. I think that strengthens this temporary insanity almost. And I hate to use the word
02:01:39.820 temporary because she obviously had a long line of mental illness, but it seems like it just
02:01:43.800 temporarily got out of control at this point. I mean, obviously way out of control.
02:01:47.640 seem like i don't agree with lisa renna of the real housewives that patrick is the real killer
02:01:55.220 the husband not even not even lindsey's arguing that um but the more i learned the more disgusted
02:02:02.480 i am with him i gotta be honest it's like so you knew your wife was in crisis you saw her
02:02:08.180 deteriorate you knew that she was having thoughts of hurting the children you were told by the
02:02:15.220 doctor she was bipolar and you said my wife is not bipolar you are working from home because
02:02:20.940 you're worried about her and yet in the midst of all that you do allow her to be alone with the
02:02:26.100 children ever and the mother too kind of failed her with no no disrespect to that mom but like
02:02:31.260 the mom was there she said no i wasn't worried that she was going to hurt the children because 0.99
02:02:34.400 we were there but then you left why was she ever allowed to be alone with these children she was
02:02:39.040 failed by these doctors the hospitals her husband her family but it's to some degree man it's like
02:02:45.780 inconceivable like is your wife really going to kill your three kids even her mother-in-law and
02:02:51.760 one of the women in my office said mother-in-laws hate their daughter-in-laws but even the mother-in-law 1.00
02:02:56.340 said when i saw her she was a very good mom she was a very good mom you go into it thinking she
02:03:01.200 would never but right except when the spouse comes to you and says i'm thinking about hurting the
02:03:06.540 children in which case you're like i'm hearing voices okay yeah yeah there's a five alarm fire
02:03:12.420 now you will not be being you will not have any alone time with them you're you're right right
02:03:17.420 like you're right and they have a nanny bring the nanny back in god knows what he's doing in his
02:03:20.980 mind right now no but every every parent knows you love your spouse you adore your spouse and
02:03:25.180 and you have to be a united front when it comes to discipline with the children and all that stuff
02:03:28.760 but like if there's any possibility your spouse is going to hurt your child
02:03:33.760 you're on the side of the child like the divisions don't that's not a situation where you back the
02:03:40.280 spouse um there was a testimony it was kind of interesting how they got it in about her hearing
02:03:45.200 the voice and you mentioned that that psychiatrist the guy who treated her dr paul zeisel he was on
02:03:50.940 the stand and here's 36 listen to this one she wanted to know how he was doing she wanted to
02:03:58.160 know if she could call him and find out her husband where things are with her and with him
02:04:06.000 and how he was faring and to just speak with him after she told patrick that she loved him very
02:04:12.000 much she was unable to express a lot of emotion but she expressed love for him and she had said 1.00
02:04:24.440 And that she heard a male voice ordering her, telling her that she didn't have any choice, but she had to kill her children and then kill herself. 0.92
02:04:46.140 Why did you let her call her husband on your cell phone? 1.00
02:04:48.840 i let her call a husband out of human compassion
02:04:54.700 i isn't that why wasn't there a hearsay objection there that's a lot of that's quite a back-ended
02:05:04.720 way to get in that she heard voices yeah well the prosecutor would be the one right objecting
02:05:09.360 to that to that coming out why wouldn't the prosecutor object to that well sometimes they
02:05:13.560 don't always know yeah they're not always know what they're doing they make mistakes we that's
02:05:18.040 why they call it the practice of law. We're still practicing. We never get it right.
02:05:21.240 I don't know. I don't think that was, I would have been on my feet saying that's not coming in.
02:05:25.660 Not, not this way. I think that's the only way it came in. Here's the cross-examination. Um,
02:05:30.280 the same guy sat 37. How many times has she told you since the incident that she's heard a voice
02:05:36.160 currently? She has not heard voices since the event took place in, uh, 2023.
02:05:48.040 And you've now testified that over the course of a period of time that she did hear voices, right?
02:05:59.680 Yes.
02:06:00.040 And is that based on one of these 35 hours worth of conversations you had with her?
02:06:07.400 How do you know that?
02:06:09.440 Well, they were collateral contacts.
02:06:11.520 spoke to other people i spoke to other people who i asked the nature of their interactions
02:06:19.960 with miss clancy and it was not a fishing expedition i mean this like this is the most
02:06:28.860 back-ended way of getting in that she alleged they heard voices that's what i say i'm not
02:06:32.340 convinced the prosecutor bringing yeah i know which is also this is ridiculous actually well
02:06:38.000 I think the prosecutor probably wanted it to come in.
02:06:40.020 So that's why she didn't object during, you know, when the defense asked it.
02:06:43.540 I think this prosecution, we can only imagine because, you know, they're doing something
02:06:47.540 weird that none of us really understand.
02:06:49.360 But it seems like they're trying to argue, well, she only said she heard voices once.
02:06:53.720 So, you know, and she hasn't heard them since.
02:06:55.760 They keep hanging on this.
02:06:57.440 She hasn't heard them since.
02:06:58.600 She hasn't been psychotic since.
02:07:00.000 And all I keep thinking is that's because she's treated now. 0.73
02:07:03.260 She's literally institutionalized and treated.
02:07:05.740 Of course, she's OK now.
02:07:06.920 she was on medications before though i mean like have they found some new cocktail that's
02:07:12.360 stopping the voices that yeah but meg apparently that's a real thing yeah like these cocktails and
02:07:18.520 and like lithium i had a friend who was going through bad depression and it took them like
02:07:22.580 two years and now he's like mr happy go lucky but but he said nitrous oxide he goes no no not that
02:07:28.960 happy but he said he goes it took a while for them to medicate me and whatever i don't know enough
02:07:33.660 enough about that to talk about it but it took a while for him and ashley's right like in other
02:07:37.820 words she's now i'm sure on a different regimen she's being insanely supervised right there's
02:07:42.760 people with her all the time and i mean the voices to me are irrelevant we haven't discussed
02:07:48.320 ashley is um yeah she's sleeping is this is massachusetts it's not texas you know no and
02:07:56.540 and you can see that megan in their laws so their law is so different than most states laws just on
02:08:02.940 this not guilty by reason and sanity. As soon as the defense raises it, the state has a burden to
02:08:08.320 disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt. And that is rare. Most states do not have that. Most states,
02:08:13.160 the burden is on the defense. So this is a really high standard. And we have what will probably be
02:08:18.560 a very liberal jury hearing with a very liberal law. So, you know, I think that's definitely going
02:08:24.000 to work in the defense's favor. You're going to have a higher number of bleeding hearts on a
02:08:28.460 massachusetts jury you would yeah one would think and the law like the law in california we talked
02:08:33.740 about this when nick reiner got charged the law in california on self-defense is tough it's very
02:08:39.820 tough and the practice like the way the trials have panned out matt murphy's been talking about
02:08:44.100 this because he was a lifelong prosecutor out there um listen to this one uh there is this case
02:08:50.240 that's often cited in california law schools as an example that severe mental illness does not
02:08:55.120 equal legal insanity. It's the case of Richard Chase, the vampire of Sacramento, 1979, killed
02:09:03.540 six people between December 77 and January 78. All of his victims were chosen at random. One
02:09:09.520 was a pregnant woman. He drank her blood after he mixed it with yogurt. Oh my God. Primary motive
02:09:16.000 behind these murders was the mutilation of the bodies and the consumption of their blood and
02:09:21.020 organs. Sorry, fewer warning. Chase had a delusional belief that he needed to consume the
02:09:26.040 blood of other beings to replenish his own supply. He had been treated in psychiatric hospitals
02:09:30.680 before the murders. One time he was taken to the ER of American River Hospital, having injected
02:09:36.700 rabbit's blood into his veins. He was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic. He was on psychotropic
02:09:41.780 drugs. He tried to use an insanity defense. The defense argued that he was a paranoid schizophrenic
02:09:46.780 who believed his blood was turning to powder.
02:09:49.020 The jury deliberated for 65 minutes
02:09:51.120 before ruling that he was sane under California law
02:09:54.960 at the time of the commission of the murder,
02:09:56.360 sentenced to death, later died in prison.
02:09:58.760 California's hardcore.
02:10:00.440 If that doesn't get you the insanity defense,
02:10:02.700 I don't know what would,
02:10:03.900 but it does come down to how the judge
02:10:05.480 is gonna charge the jury
02:10:06.700 on what equals insanity or mental defect.
02:10:10.920 I mean, that's the entire real ballgame, is it not?
02:10:13.020 Right, it definitely is.
02:10:14.400 And Massachusetts has very good jury charges for the defense on that.
02:10:18.480 So I think that is definitely going to work in their favor.
02:10:22.260 Wow.
02:10:23.040 So I don't know, maybe we should be rooting for it since we all agree that if the jury 0.99
02:10:27.320 could consider a lesser included, she's probably going to be out in no time at all. 0.99
02:10:31.420 Well, I don't know about no time at all, but definitely less time than if she goes to a 0.55
02:10:35.780 hospital.
02:10:36.100 As he said, a case of this magnitude, three deaths.
02:10:38.960 Then you add the aggravating factor, they're three children.
02:10:41.720 Then you add they're her children.
02:10:43.420 Then you add that this is a huge media case, you know, she's not going anywhere anytime soon.
02:10:49.300 And also, I mean, if she's that suicidal, she's not going to get out because the standard is a danger to herself or others.
02:10:55.020 So, you know, I'm with Arthur.
02:10:56.280 I think she'll serve a lot of time in a state mental institution. 1.00
02:10:59.840 We have to spend one minute discussing the insane, weird leftist mothers all over TikTok who are posting these videos. 0.96
02:11:08.840 There's something wrong with our society, something deeply wrong.
02:11:12.020 What about the Luigi, Luigi fans? Yes. So there's like a category, there's whole trend of like
02:11:17.200 these young moms who are like, Oh, she speaks for all of us being a mother. So hard. Will you stop
02:11:21.960 it? Stop it. Half the battle is mind over matter. It, you know, it can be challenging. Sometimes
02:11:26.780 babies cry a lot. You know what? There are ways of managing it and you don't have to be a nutcase
02:11:31.040 about it. It's a baby, you know, like there, there are ways. Um, ideally you get some help.
02:11:36.620 If you can't afford some help, you got to lean on a family member. Ideally, if your family member's
02:11:40.520 not there. You lean on your spouse or you just remove yourself from the room, but you don't have
02:11:44.400 to be doing weird tick tocks of yourself, like be behaving very strangely with your baby. Here's
02:11:52.300 now they're pretending. That's what's so weird about these videos. And this is a trend. Here's
02:11:56.780 one of a mom pretending to be overwhelmed with her newborn. And while she plays the audio of
02:12:01.740 Kevin Reddington, that's Lindsay's defense lawyer, reading her diary entries, watch this at 41.
02:12:08.220 I'm desperate to get a mental break from taking care of everyone.
02:12:11.140 My mind is trying to make something physically wrong with me.
02:12:14.340 My mind never shuts off.
02:12:15.720 It's constantly thinking of the next thing someone needs.
02:12:18.960 I can't shut it off.
02:12:19.960 I desperately want to go back to work, but now I don't know how I'm going to function,
02:12:24.320 and it worries me.
02:12:26.000 Wrote that, right?
02:12:27.180 Correct.
02:12:27.780 There were two consecutive or two pages that were blank that she didn't even write on.
02:12:32.280 And then on the third entry, affirmations.
02:12:34.840 She wrote affirmations on November 22nd of 2022.
02:12:40.200 I am calm.
02:12:41.760 I will remain calm today.
02:12:43.980 There is nothing that needs to be on my mind.
02:12:47.220 The weight is lifted from my mind.
02:12:49.620 I will sleep tonight.
02:12:52.160 Okay.
02:12:52.920 For the listening audience, there's a woman in her maybe late 20s holding an adorable baby who seems six months old at most.
02:13:00.060 Who's yawning.
02:13:00.840 Yeah.
02:13:01.140 She's been crying.
02:13:01.700 Younger.
02:13:02.060 Yeah, looks like a happy, peaceful baby.
02:13:03.620 she's she's rocking him back and forth he's not crying at all she's doing fake sad faces there's
02:13:10.020 not a tear in her eyes and she just keeps throwing her head back and like trying to look distraught
02:13:14.540 like like so she her baby looks perfect and easy and um she wants in on the what and look i don't
02:13:22.580 i don't i really don't mean the notoriety things but we all know that infants especially in those
02:13:28.400 it could get overwhelming but now in the palm of our hands with this little phone thing we call
02:13:33.400 there's so much relief there's like the calm app the to calm the kid to calm yourself there's so
02:13:38.920 much stress management you know i think about my grandmother my great-grandmother who had 11
02:13:43.400 children megan 11 children both sides of my family had 11 like yeah both well because they would die
02:13:51.440 i mean that's you know i'm talking about in the early 1900s like the three i think on both sides
02:13:56.120 died so like you know yes it stinks sometimes it's overwhelming sometimes but you know there's a long
02:14:02.880 there's a lot of real estate between being overwhelmed and mental illness to the point
02:14:06.620 where you're jumping out a window and onto your head after you kill three people yeah i mean so
02:14:12.220 again not everybody should be a mother like if you can't handle stress in your regular life if
02:14:16.480 you're full of anxiety all the time it might not be for you right and a lot more people where are 0.97
02:14:19.900 the dads with this tiktok like what's happening when the family members are seeing these tiktoks
02:14:24.320 where these people are talking about this i mean is someone showing up on the door making sure that 0.69
02:14:28.500 the kids are okay well you know we know they're probably you know full well these women are 0.90
02:14:33.100 setting up their eye light their little spotlight on them you know make sure the natural light hits
02:14:38.780 me just right well i look super sad with my baby i swear i'm super sad that's what the fathers don't
02:14:43.940 care because they know it's attention this is attention-taking it's all it is who would put 0.93
02:14:48.300 this shit on their on their instagram the stuff stuff wait i want to show you something when when 0.94
02:14:52.800 my oldest was born i downloaded there's like the iphone came out in 2007 he's born in 2008 0.98
02:14:59.600 i downloaded this app on my phone and it is a miracle app it's got this rattle and if you shake
02:15:08.280 it like the thing moves i'm going to show it to you and i use it if there's like a crying baby
02:15:13.740 on an airplane i always go over to try to help the mom because this app is like a miracle thing
02:15:18.780 for babies and it worked on all three of my kids so well it works on people's other strangers babies
02:15:23.860 and then they all say of course what is the app and unfortunately the app only says arthur tell
02:15:29.900 tell the audience what it's labeled there hold on baby baby baby baby with a picture of a little
02:15:39.100 baby so i'm like i got nothing i don't know how to tell you how to find this app but i'm going to
02:15:44.160 show you here can you see it like i can hear it yeah if you shake it little balls move around 0.98
02:15:52.860 the little rattle balls them out they love it every baby on earth loves this crap now maybe 0.98
02:16:00.180 there's another app where you can find this we all had something like i had one kid who liked 0.90
02:16:04.200 to swing one who liked that little like vibrating chair i mean there's so many things that you can
02:16:08.960 get but this is like a magic that looks magic i'm telling you and it's in the palm of your hand
02:16:15.260 i don't know travels don't know how to recreate in any event i i have no tolerance for these 0.95
02:16:19.780 actresses who you know it's you know get help or keep it to yourself like don't go on the
02:16:25.980 ticket sorry tick tock again as he said i'm being sincere there's so much relief on your phone
02:16:32.440 there's so many ways to deal with this now with ai okay my baby's been crying for three hours what
02:16:37.520 the hell do i do and it'll give you seven suggestions yes put an ice cube in its hand
02:16:42.100 like something one of them is not go on tiktok no i don't think any of them are go on tiktok
02:16:46.560 so we what do we think final final predictions on this case how it's likely to come down arthur
02:16:52.640 i i think the jury i don't think they'll be able to unanimously find she intentionally
02:16:56.960 killed these kids and i mean the the reasonable doubt fact is her diving out a window yeah i mean
02:17:03.860 that that harm to herself it's too difficult to say she's like this evil person so i think she'll
02:17:09.980 be in a mental institution and and again ashley accurately points out if the doctors think she's
02:17:15.380 going to hurt herself anywhere along the line they will not let her go so she'll be there and
02:17:19.800 she's in this wheelchair and i don't expect her to have a long life expectancy what about you
02:17:24.220 i'm with arthur i think that it's not guilty by reason of insanity and i think that we're going
02:17:28.040 to hear from the jurors that they don't like how the state presented their case i think they're
02:17:31.560 going to be very critical. And I think one of the things that they're going to say was a big
02:17:35.000 decision-making, um, factor for them was the fact that she had no motive. She didn't want her kids 0.95
02:17:39.180 dead. And so without evidence that she actually, other than that one little Facebook post that she 0.99
02:17:42.980 actually, and it wasn't even that she wanted her kids dead. It was that, you know, her kid was
02:17:45.780 crying and she was tired. I think they're going to say there was no motive. She wasn't handling it
02:17:49.040 well. Yeah. She, she wasn't handling it well, obviously. Uh, great to see you. Thanks for being
02:17:54.420 here. You as well, Arthur. So good to have you here. I've got some great Italian bread from
02:17:58.360 Brooklyn downstairs for you when you're ready. If you're allowed to eat, I mean, Doug ate.
02:18:02.360 We're doing that now. Okay, I'm down. All right. We're going to stay on this. By the way,
02:18:05.960 there's speculation that closing arguments could come as soon as Monday. All of this is broadcast.
02:18:10.460 I love these trials that actually allow cameras in the courtroom. They're so helpful. And you get
02:18:14.960 such a better accurate picture of what's going on inside the room than you can when they don't
02:18:20.380 allow it. So thank you for that, Massachusetts. And thanks to all of you. Enjoy your weekend.
02:18:24.600 we'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.
02:18:36.320 Today's episode was brought to you by SuperSure.
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02:19:07.560 Build for advisors who are in the thick of it.
02:19:09.560 The Chicken Parmy Burger,
02:19:11.260 McExtreme Pulled Pork,
02:19:12.840 Garlic and Black Pepper Chicken McNuggets,
02:19:15.300 Cheesy Bacon McFlavor Fries,
02:19:16.940 and the Stroop Waffle McFlurry.
02:19:19.400 You've scrolled them.
02:19:20.800 You've screenshotted them.
02:19:22.200 You've never been able to order them.
02:19:23.960 Until now, this is the McDonald's World Menu Heist.
02:19:28.720 The most wanted menu items taken from around the world, now in Canada.
02:19:33.860 Get them while you can.
02:19:35.920 For a limited time only at participating McDonald's restaurants in Canada.