The Megyn Kelly Show - Hawaii Doc Gerhardt Konig's Appeal, Ebony Parker Case Dismissed - ＂The MK True Crime Show＂ with Dave Aronberg, Phil Holloway, and Ashleigh Merchant

00:00:00.000 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly, and today we are bringing you an episode of our new

00:00:03.580 True Crime Show, hosted by Kelly's Court favorites, Phil Holloway, Dave Ehrenberg,

00:00:09.020 and Ashley Merchant. It's called the MK True Crime Show, and if you like what you hear,

00:00:13.820 you can go and subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts for free. Enjoy.

00:00:19.680 welcome to the mk true crime show i'm dave erenberg former state attorney for palm beach

00:00:31.700 county florida and current managing partner of dave erenberg law i'm joined today by my co-host

00:00:37.220 ashley merchant criminal defense attorney from atlanta ga although originally from the sunshine

00:00:43.540 State. Hello, Ashley. Hey, how are you? I'm doing great. You know, I'm the Florida lawman,

00:00:49.400 but I'm on the road today. We're heading to CrimeCon and we're both very excited. We can't

00:00:54.140 wait to meet people and talk about true crime. Let's go over what we have on the docket today.

00:00:59.580 The Maui doctor convicted last month of attempted manslaughter for trying to push his wife off a

00:01:04.620 cliff. Wants a redo. We'll discuss how post-trial comments from the jury might make for a successful

00:01:11.660 appeal. Why do they keep commenting? Prosecutors hate that. I know, I know. And we've got an update

00:01:17.440 in a case against the school administrator who was charged with negligence for allowing a six-year-old

00:01:22.400 to stay in class after the school received reports that this child had a gun. We'll talk about why

00:01:28.060 the charges were dismissed and how that's actually good news for the shooting victim.

00:01:32.320 Joining us later, behavioral scientist and host of the I Don't Belong Here show on YouTube,

00:01:38.100 Samantha Benigno will share her insights on Mackenzie Shrilla and what Netflix's The Crash

00:01:44.880 can tell us about the hell on wheels double murderer. Ashley, let's start with a Gerhard

00:01:51.320 Koenig appeal. This is a case we've been talking a lot about on our show. I thought it was done,

00:01:56.500 right? He was convicted of manslaughter. Not exactly murder, but, you know, decent.

00:02:01.620 And now he is ready to appeal. What's the deal?

00:02:05.880 Yeah, so apparently his lawyers got some news

00:02:09.600 that some of the jurors may have had second thoughts.

00:02:11.600 And, you know, that's not that uncommon,

00:02:13.200 but let's just kind of catch our viewers up

00:02:14.620 on what happened in this case.

00:02:16.020 So this is the case out in Hawaii

00:02:17.900 where Mr. Koenig, he's a doctor, was a doctor,

00:02:20.620 I guess he's not gonna be for much longer,

00:02:21.840 but he was charged with second degree attempted murder

00:02:24.540 for assaulting his wife, Ariel Koenig.

00:02:27.180 They were on a cliffside hike back in March of 2025.

00:02:30.560 They were celebrating her birthday

00:02:31.820 and apparently trying to repair their relationship

00:02:34.200 after she had had an out-of-state affair with a colleague.

00:02:38.340 The allegations were that she actually attacked him first

00:02:43.000 and then that he hit her back with a large rock in self-defense.

00:02:46.740 Here is Gerhag's account of the attack.

00:02:51.660 I felt like a shove, and I was almost pushed over the edge.

00:02:58.500 You felt a shove?

00:03:01.400 Who shoved you?

00:03:03.120 Harry did.

00:03:04.200 what did you do right after that um barely caught myself and turned around and looked at her and was 0.95

00:03:10.860 like what the fuck was that like when you start walking towards her is she yelling is she saying 0.99

00:03:15.460 anything not initially but i turn around and i'm asking her like what the hell's you know what the 0.99

00:03:20.200 just happened and what's going on and as i'm starting to walk towards her she starts yelling 1.00

00:03:24.880 she starts yelling yeah help me help me okay she kind of grabs my wrists and throws herself on the 1.00

00:03:31.220 around and pulls me down with her so she grabs me by the testicles and i'm trying to get her to let 1.00

00:03:36.740 go of my testicles um and then she hits me with rock on the side of the face i finally get the 1.00

00:03:43.280 rock what'd you do i hit her with the rock how many times do you think you hit her i hit her two 0.98

00:03:49.800 times that's not what the witnesses said the witnesses saw her him hit her many times and 0.58

00:03:58.420 And it was an attempt to, in their mind, to kill her.

00:04:02.660 And she survived, thankfully.

00:04:04.620 She's a small woman.

00:04:05.540 He is the aggressor here.

00:04:07.240 And she was a bloody mess afterwards, whereas he hardly had a scratch on him.

00:04:11.240 And yet he portrayed himself as a victim.

00:04:13.740 And he was found guilty of manslaughter because the jurors didn't think that he had the intent to kill her.

00:04:20.960 Oh, that's a problem, though.

00:04:22.380 Isn't that a problem, Ashley?

00:04:23.780 Yeah, that's a big problem.

00:04:25.420 And so she testified, you know, she testified that he tried to inject her with a syringe after beating her on the head, you know, gave pretty powerful testimony, enough that the jury, you know, voted to convict him.

00:04:35.760 And I think we've got her actual testimony at SOT, too. 0.99

00:04:39.260 You know, I'm screaming and I'm saying, what the fuck are you doing? 1.00

00:04:42.660 Get off me. 1.00

00:04:44.140 And he's saying, like, fuck you. 1.00

00:04:46.580 You're done. 1.00

00:04:48.600 I'm so, so sick of your shit. 1.00

00:04:50.740 So done with you. 1.00

00:04:51.680 and I'm trying to kind of protect myself and get out of there

00:04:58.320 but also he's gripping his hand closed really hard

00:05:02.740 and there's a vial in his hand

00:05:05.100 so I was trying to pry his hand open so I could grab that vial out 1.00

00:05:09.040 I'm screaming and he's telling me, shut the fuck up 0.99

00:05:12.080 nobody's going to hear you out here 1.00

00:05:14.080 nobody's coming to save you

00:05:16.000 and I'm saying, you can't do this

00:05:19.860 everyone knows we're on a hike um they'll know this wasn't an accident and our kids will be

00:05:29.100 orphans you're you'll go to jail and i'll i'll be dead like you have to stop um and again he's

00:05:34.420 saying like you're done we're done with you we don't need you anymore you're done you're done 1.00

00:05:40.220 and then he just starts hitting my face in my head with a rock

00:05:44.980 yeah so the latest dave is they filed an appeal so apparently gerard's um defense attorney filed

00:05:52.800 a motion for a new trial based on some post-trial interviews that were given by jurors and he said

00:05:58.700 that while we remain grateful that dr koenig was not convicted of attempted murder statements by

00:06:03.840 certain jurors after the verdict demonstrate that he should not have been convicted of attempted

00:06:08.440 manslaughter either. So apparently they're basing their appeal on that, Dave.

00:06:13.640 Well, as a former prosecutor, normally I just say, eh, jurors have a lot of leeway,

00:06:19.540 a lot of discretion. And even if they get certain things wrong, you just say, hey,

00:06:24.900 that's the jury process. But when it comes to an element of the crime here, manslaughter and murder

00:06:30.620 both require an intent to kill someone. The difference is that manslaughter, you're under

00:06:35.720 extreme emotional distress. It's like the situation where you find someone in bed with

00:06:40.740 your wife and you pull out a shotgun and kill them. That's manslaughter, not necessarily murder.

00:06:46.340 I think we all had a better perspective after reading the instructions. So when we came in,

00:06:50.460 we really had to dig down and focus on what the instructions were and what each count was.

00:06:55.960 The jury of seven women and five men deliberating for about eight hours. The foreperson telling NBC

00:07:01.340 News why they ultimately chose not to convict Koenig of the most serious charge, second-degree

00:07:06.060 attempted murder. We felt that with the language presented in our instructions that the definition

00:07:12.000 of attempted murder was not fully met by the evidence shown. We could see that there was

00:07:17.580 definitely evidence of a track record of the ability for emotional disturbance to have occurred.

00:07:23.800 Bajora Makalapua-Atkins also says they didn't believe Koenig intended to murder his wife that

00:07:29.180 day. The intent to kill is improbable to us based on the evidence presented. What this

00:07:35.980 juror foreperson just said is we didn't think that he was guilty of attempted murder in the

00:07:41.620 second degree. So that's a little problematic. Dave, this is literally one of my worst nightmares

00:07:48.580 as a defense lawyer. I have so many things when I see this, so many different emotions and

00:07:53.000 different memories come up. Clients always want us to interview jurors after a verdict. They always

00:07:58.720 do. And I always caution them, please don't. And I like to talk to jurors about things in the case

00:08:05.060 because I learn from it. But interviewing jurors, you get this. And it is terrifying when you see

00:08:10.940 how the actual sausage is made inside that jury room. I mean, what this juror is saying is that

00:08:16.980 she voted to convict maybe because she was confused on the law. I mean, that's what it

00:08:21.900 sounds like because they voted to convict and now she's saying we don't think that they proved it.

00:08:26.240 Well, you voted to convict. So what are you doing now? Why are you changing your mind?

00:08:31.080 And they do get a lot of discretion in there. And you generally don't overturn a case because

00:08:35.620 jurors were confused. But I mean, I'd love to get your thoughts, actually, because as a defense

00:08:42.040 lawyer, even though you don't want your attorneys and your clients to talk to jurors, the juror

00:08:49.600 had a fundamental misunderstanding of the law and voted to convict on intent in manslaughter,

00:08:56.640 even though that does require an intent to kill someone. So shouldn't that be enough for an

00:09:03.260 appeal? Well, maybe, maybe not. It's complicated, as the kids like to say on Facebook. But I do

00:09:09.760 think it raises legitimate questions that now put a question mark at the end of this verdict.

00:09:15.320 Yeah. And, you know, the lawyers in this case are smart, the way that they're attacking it,

00:09:18.920 because you can't typically impeach a verdict.

00:09:20.800 And what does that mean, impeach?

00:09:21.960 It just means kind of undo a verdict

00:09:23.420 by a juror changing their mind.

00:09:25.320 And that's the law because jurors

00:09:26.760 change their minds all the time.

00:09:27.960 I mean, it's a heavy decision.

00:09:29.120 You make it in a jury room when you're in a situation

00:09:31.160 where you're talking with your fellow jurors.

00:09:33.080 And a lot of people have second decisions on that,

00:09:36.780 particularly when they hear about what the sentence is.

00:09:40.160 You know, especially states that have mandatory minimums,

00:09:43.120 jurors aren't allowed to know about the mandatory minimums

00:09:45.500 when they're voting for guilt or innocence.

00:09:47.560 And then after they convict and they find out what the mandatory minimum is, a lot of them are horrified and said, you know, if I had known that this person was going to get life, you know, for example, I would never have voted to convict.

00:09:58.380 But I think the lawyers are smart here.

00:10:00.160 The appeal is saying that the court that they're trying to give the court the opportunity to prevent an unjust result.

00:10:06.220 And they're trying to wedge in this jurors confusion to say it's an unjust result.

00:10:11.700 And so the trial court does have broad discretion to do that.

00:10:14.300 I don't think it's likely to win here, because we don't like to overturn verdicts once a jury

00:10:19.160 speaks. But they are trying their best at this. And they're arguing that juror instructions can

00:10:24.900 be complex, they can be confusing, and misunderstandings happen. The problem is,

00:10:29.580 and that's one of the reasons I spend so much time arguing jury charges and the law to jurors,

00:10:34.280 I know it gets boring, and I always warn my jurors, I'm sorry, but I don't want to end up

00:10:38.840 in a situation where a juror is doing something like this and saying, you know, I voted for it,

00:10:43.060 but it's because I was confused.

00:10:45.320 You know, that's always kind of a stressful situation.

00:10:47.600 You say it's your greatest nightmare as a defense lawyer.

00:10:50.300 It was prosecutor's greatest nightmare

00:10:52.260 when I was at the state attorney's office

00:10:53.740 where the jurors come out and they say,

00:10:55.820 yeah, you know, I'm writing a book about this.

00:10:57.800 No, don't talk like that.

00:10:59.040 Oh my God, yes.

00:11:00.700 We've had a case overturned because of that,

00:11:02.540 because one of the jurors was writing a book.

00:11:05.520 And so just nothing good comes after a juror starts speaking.

00:11:10.480 Nothing good can come out of it.

00:11:12.440 But, you know, we thank you for your service, your jurors, and you do have First Amendment rights, but you can then undo everything after that.

00:11:20.020 And then, of course, you can get the clerk of court to try to fix the case, and that's even worse.

00:11:24.620 And have a book deal, and then they go to prison, and, you know, you can't make this stuff up.

00:11:28.720 It's insane.

00:11:29.920 It's insane.

00:11:30.360 Now, just before we go on to Abby's Warner, I do want to mention something.

00:11:34.220 I don't understand how the jurors, and I respect jurors, but I understand how they didn't think there was an intent to kill.

00:11:39.860 he researched a cliff where they could walk which was the most dangerous cliff where it was the

00:11:45.960 narrowest area where she could fall off and then he told her to take a selfie like at the edge of

00:11:50.800 the cliff yeah and when she wouldn't he got furious at her and then started hitting her with a rock

00:11:55.540 i completely agree with you dave okay so this to me is a case of all or nothing either he was

00:12:01.600 trying to kill her he wasn't he wasn't trying to hurt her he wasn't trying to threaten her he wasn't

00:12:04.640 trying to harm her he was trying to kill her or he wasn't it was either an accident or it wasn't

00:12:09.000 I mean, I'm with you. I don't think this is really one of those issues that they really argued. It

00:12:12.800 sounds like a juror is just having second thoughts now because they've seen, you know, all the

00:12:16.780 coverage. They probably learned something that they didn't learn during trial. And that I wanted

00:12:20.300 to point out. One of the big reasons that we don't let jurors impeach the verdict, you know, undo the

00:12:25.040 verdict, is because once they leave that jury room, they're subject to a lot of information that they

00:12:29.860 didn't have in the jury room. And there's reasons they didn't have it. There's certain evidence

00:12:33.860 that's not reliable. And so a judge actually has to keep that evidence out. You know, if there's

00:12:38.280 things that are illegally obtained, statements that are uncorroborated, things that are unreliable,

00:12:43.440 doesn't go in the jury room. So they made that decision when they had all that information,

00:12:47.260 and now they're having hindsight, but perhaps they read a comment that influenced them. Perhaps

00:12:51.740 they heard an argument, a new argument. That's not fair because that's not something that was

00:12:55.340 actually decided in that courtroom. So I really don't think we're going to see this go a whole

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00:14:10.680 But we have, like you mentioned, Dave, another really interesting case.

00:14:14.660 This is out of Newport News, Virginia.

00:14:17.120 The elementary school teacher, Abbey's Warner, she was shot by a six-year-old in her class

00:14:21.960 back in January of 2023.

00:14:23.720 And we've seen quite a few different cases with this.

00:14:26.360 she suffered wounds from her hands, her chest. Her left hand was actually shattered. She's had

00:14:30.880 six surgeries, has permanent damage. A bullet went through her chest. It collapsed her lung.

00:14:36.120 I mean, so we're talking some significant damage here from this six-year-old. But Abby Zwirner,

00:14:41.500 she sued the former vice principal of the school, Ebony Parker, for gross negligence. And she got a

00:14:48.620 $10 million jury verdict. She was asking for $40 million. She got a verdict. And so now we're

00:14:55.560 seeing some criminal prosecutions happening in this case, Dave. Yes. Our amazing producer asked

00:15:01.240 also if attorneys generally ask for more than they expect to get as a tactic. So if you ask for 40

00:15:08.420 million, you get 10 million as a compromise. That does happen. But you have to be careful because

00:15:12.560 you can overplay your hand. You can lose credibility with the jury. You're like,

00:15:15.500 you're asking for 40 million? Please, zero. So you have to be careful. It's like when prosecutors

00:15:20.280 overcharge. You could lose everything. It's dangerous. But here, a jury found Parker liable

00:15:25.660 for $10 million. And then there are criminal charges that were filed against Parker and they

00:15:32.420 were dismissed. But Ashley, you know how you win by losing? In this case, the victim won by losing

00:15:38.920 that criminal case. And you know why, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So what happens, and we see this

00:15:44.940 a lot of times with car accidents. The best example I could use is like a DUI, for example.

00:15:49.120 You've got someone that is driving drunk and they have car insurance and they hurt someone,

00:15:53.720 killed them, something like that.

00:15:54.900 There's a civil suit.

00:15:56.020 Well, most of our insurance policies say if you're driving drunk, that's an exclusion.

00:16:00.640 So I bet you anything that your insurance policy for your car says if you are found

00:16:04.660 guilty of DUI, we are not going to pay your claim.

00:16:07.400 So what happens?

00:16:08.440 That person who was actually run over, they get no justice in civil court.

00:16:12.160 They get no money because the person is then charged criminally.

00:16:15.520 So it's always this tough walking a line. Do you want to have a civil case? Do you want to have a criminal case? And like we see here, a lot of times the government tries to do all of it because they have different motivations.

00:16:27.560 The government who's deciding to prosecute, they're trying to think about future dangerousness, things like that. And then you've got the civil justice, which is about making the person whole.

00:16:35.040 So they're different analysis and different reasons.

00:16:37.760 And that's what we've seen in this case.

00:16:39.340 So, you know, we've got Parker, who she was alleged to have received multiple reports

00:16:44.540 that were known to be credible that this student was armed.

00:16:47.800 So apparently she knew or should have known that this student was armed.

00:16:51.600 Parker pulled a teacher to search the backpack, but didn't actually search the backpack until

00:16:57.520 the mother arrived at school, was waiting to search the backpack.

00:17:00.220 And that's when this shooting happened.

00:17:02.100 The mom, I thought, was interesting.

00:17:03.420 the mom back in 2023 of this student was actually sentenced to two years in state prison for child

00:17:08.940 neglect in connection with the shooting. She was released from custody earlier this month.

00:17:13.000 But we've seen this a lot. We've seen this here in Georgia with a recent school shooting we've

00:17:16.600 had. We've seen it in Florida, you know, all over the place where parents are starting to be charged

00:17:20.140 when their kids do acts like this for child neglect. And I think that's a big trend we're

00:17:24.540 seeing in criminal prosecutions. But I think this criminal case against, you know, Ebony Parker, 0.93

00:17:30.260 against the school principal probably took it a little bit too far. Curious your opinion, Dave,

00:17:34.180 as a former prosecutor. But, you know, just to catch our viewers up, our listeners up,

00:17:39.140 she was facing eight counts of felony child abuse and disregard for a life, one for each bullet in

00:17:45.280 the gun found in the child's possession. The prosecutor says she ignored warnings that the

00:17:50.120 child had a weapon, and the defense argued that the allegations were not criminal in nature.

00:17:54.820 And we had a trial.

00:17:56.040 And what happened there?

00:17:57.620 Yeah, well, you had a trial.

00:18:00.320 But in the case of Ebony Parker, the judge just said, no, there won't be a trial because we're going to dismiss it in advance, which is rare, but it happens.

00:18:09.240 Right.

00:18:09.340 And so the trial was the civil trial.

00:18:12.340 And I think if you ask the victim here, Ms. Werner, if she could choose between winning the $10 million in the civil trial or get Ms. Parker convicted and sentenced to prison, 100 out of 100 times she would rather have the $10 million.

00:18:27.660 And that's because of what you said.

00:18:29.860 Prosecutors represent the people, the state.

00:18:32.320 They're not representing the victim.

00:18:34.440 And the victim has her own lawyers representing the victim.

00:18:38.320 And she got compensation.

00:18:39.600 She didn't get $40 million, but $10 million is a good judgment if she can collect it from insurance and so forth.

00:18:47.240 But you asked a question about the case.

00:18:50.540 Before we get to it, I want to play Sot 4 because we want to see how the judge dismissed the charges,

00:18:56.420 and then we'll talk about it on the other side.

00:18:58.480 Those legal theories do not fit the plain meaning of the statute.

00:19:03.140 If they are up to amount to a crime, then the legislature will need to codify it.

00:19:09.600 Therefore, I do grant defense motion to strike in hold on all counts, all eight counts of felony child abuse and endangerment under indictment CR, the indictment number 24999-541-01 through 08.

00:19:31.100 So those matters are dismissed.

00:19:33.780 I want to add, my ruling today is based upon legal principles only.

00:19:39.600 Now, it is inappropriate for me to give my personal thoughts or express sympathy or concern,

00:19:46.060 but it's understanding what happened that day was awful, that they agreed upon by all.

00:19:51.860 The criminal matter before me does not call for me to discuss the Newport News School system

00:19:56.860 or make political observations, and I will not comment on optics or engage in speculation.

00:20:03.860 Ashley, you had asked me a question about, as a prosecutor,

00:20:07.180 How tough is it to prosecute someone other than the parents for child neglect when you have a child who's not your child come to school with a gun?

00:20:15.580 And we have tried this now multiple times, and each time it has failed.

00:20:19.140 You've seen it, Scott Peterson, in the Marjory Stelman-Douglas case.

00:20:22.640 He was the school law enforcement, the resource officer, who did not run into the building.

00:20:27.020 They charged him with criminal child neglect, but they said, you know, it's weird.

00:20:30.680 You're charging a cop for child neglect, and it's not really the right charge, child abuse.

00:20:35.800 You have to have some sort of duty, being a parent, or to actually be convicted of such a charge.

00:20:41.900 And we've seen parents, like the parent in this case.

00:20:43.800 So he was acquitted. He was found not guilty.

00:20:46.600 Now, you also saw in Uvalde, Texas, similar charges.

00:20:50.240 And there, too, you saw a not guilty verdict.

00:20:53.940 And so here, I'm not that surprised that, again, you see a judge say,

00:20:59.680 not only are we not going to let this go to a jury, we're going to end it right now.

00:21:05.000 so it won't even be a trial. We're not even going to have a trial because you can't find someone

00:21:10.080 under these facts guilty of child neglect, child abuse. As a prosecutor, I wish we could,

00:21:16.520 but that seal has not been broken yet. Right. That's up to the legislature if they want to

00:21:20.560 criminalize that. But, you know, and I agree with you. And it's interesting. And I want to talk for

00:21:24.660 a minute about how this result came about, you know, how this trial came about, because I think 0.97

00:21:29.180 it's important when we talk about our next case up, Mackenzie Shrilla, who had what's called a

00:21:34.020 bench trial. So in this case, so this case, Ebony Parker, you know, she was charged with these 0.79

00:21:38.220 felonies. She went to trial. In the opening statements, they had, you know, they started

00:21:43.500 with the trial. And the prosecutor said that Parker was the only person with authority and

00:21:48.320 knowledge of this armed student so that she's the person that could have intervened before the

00:21:52.660 shooting happened. The defense said, well, if she was held liable, so should every other staff

00:21:56.980 member. But what happened after the prosecution presented their witnesses, before the defense

00:22:02.320 started presenting their witnesses, they asked the judge to dismiss the charges. And that's the

00:22:07.200 thought you all just saw where the judge said, you know, I don't think that there was a crime

00:22:10.740 committed here. And the judge made the tough decision saying, I don't think this can go to

00:22:15.040 a jury. And the reason I want to highlight that for our viewers is when I watched, you know,

00:22:19.320 I watched the Netflix documentary, The Crash, and I saw her have a bench trial. And we talk about

00:22:23.800 that a lot on this, you know, on this show, people maybe waive their rights to a jury trial and have

00:22:27.440 a bench trial. This is a really good illustration of why I always say, don't ever do that.

00:22:32.320 And, yeah, I mean, and this is it because you've got a judge that is willing to get the charges dismissed.

00:22:39.280 Even if you have a jury trial, the judge can always dismiss the charges.

00:22:42.520 So why would you waive that jury trial when you have a situation like you have here where the judge actually is the one that dismisses it?

00:22:49.220 Why would you give that up?

00:22:50.500 It is the most embarrassing thing for a prosecutor when they come back to my office and say, I just got JOA'd because it almost never happens.

00:22:59.520 So JOA is judgment of acquittal.

00:23:01.360 And it is, like, the greatest thing for a defense lawyer because it means—

00:23:04.560 Oh, it is.

00:23:05.600 Right?

00:23:05.920 Jury, you go home.

00:23:07.420 We're not going to let you hear it.

00:23:08.760 But the standard, it's really hard, and it's rare.

00:23:11.740 You've got to show that the state didn't even put it on what's called a prima facie case, which means it doesn't—you didn't—like, what you presented, even if it's true, doesn't convict someone.

00:23:23.020 Like, there's no crime here.

00:23:24.320 Right.

00:23:24.660 And so it's rare.

00:23:26.360 Judges don't like to take the decision-making out of the jury's hands.

00:23:29.660 and when it happens, it's humiliating for prosecutors.

00:23:33.080 And I saw, Ashley, you laugh

00:23:34.500 because you've been there before, huh?

00:23:36.080 You've had that.

00:23:36.620 I have, yeah, I have.

00:23:38.420 It is humiliating for prosecutors.

00:23:39.860 I mean, it's one of those things.

00:23:40.980 In this case, you know, the judge said,

00:23:42.680 I don't see a legal basis for the charges.

00:23:44.740 So the prosecution has done all this

00:23:46.580 and the judge is saying, you were wrong.

00:23:48.960 I mean, that's pretty bad.

00:23:50.540 We did have a question from our producer,

00:23:53.060 which I thought was a great question I wanted to bring up.

00:23:55.260 She asked, shouldn't that issue have been raised

00:23:56.940 before the trial started?

00:23:58.300 And isn't this something the defense should have moved for pretrial to dismiss it?

00:24:02.600 And I can tell you that that is typically a really strong strategy decision.

00:24:07.060 And there is a huge strategy between waiting until trial.

00:24:10.580 And it is two words, double jeopardy.

00:24:13.140 If you get a case dismissed pretrial without prejudice, then the state can rebring the case.

00:24:19.980 And it is very hard to do that.

00:24:22.460 It's very hard to get a case dismissed on double jeopardy grounds if the judge dismissed it pretrial.

00:24:27.140 because guess what? Jeopardy never attached. Jeopardy attaches when a witness takes the stand

00:24:32.040 or a jury is sworn in. That's when Jeopardy attaches. So if you have a judge dismissing

00:24:36.560 a case pre-trial, there's no double Jeopardy grounds. So most defense lawyers are going to

00:24:41.120 want to wait until Jeopardy has actually attached, which is when that witness is sworn in in a bench

00:24:46.200 trial or the jury is sworn in in a jury trial. So I did want to answer our question on that.

00:24:52.260 It's a great answer.

00:24:53.500 Thank you for answering it.

00:24:54.980 And I want to also give kudos to our producer, Michelle, for another great question. 0.88

00:24:58.800 Like, what is she doing in media? 1.00

00:25:00.520 Maybe you should be a lawyer, Michelle. 0.89

00:25:01.840 I know.

00:25:02.200 I was like, these are great questions.

00:25:03.300 This is what people want to know about.

00:25:04.440 I love this.

00:25:05.340 Yeah, very impressed.

00:25:07.060 I cannot wait, by the way, to talk about the Sharilla case.

00:25:10.260 I watched the Netflix documentary.

00:25:11.740 It was actually assigned to us by our producer.

00:25:14.020 I think Michelle required us to watch it.

00:25:15.540 And man, it was good.

00:25:17.580 It was so good.

00:25:18.760 Yeah.

00:25:18.820 You know, Netflix is not a sponsor of the show yet, but, man, that was a good documentary,

00:25:23.900 and we're going to be talking about it after the break.

00:25:25.860 Oh, my goodness.

00:25:27.280 So, next, behavioral scientist and host of the I Don't Belong Here show on YouTube,

00:25:33.160 Samantha Benigno, joins us to discuss Hell on Wheels killer Mackenzie Shirella,

00:25:38.480 or as they call her, Killa Shirella.

00:25:41.180 Stay tuned.

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00:27:13.940 Welcome back to the MK True Crime Show.

00:27:16.360 Joining us now is behavioral scientist and host of the I Don't Belong Here show on YouTube, Samantha Beningo.

00:27:22.940 Welcome, Samantha. Thanks for having us.

00:27:25.360 Thanks for being with me.

00:27:27.140 Yes, thank you.

00:27:28.120 So, Samantha, you, along with us here at MK True Crime, have been revisiting the Mackenzie

00:27:33.380 Shrilla story after the release of the Netflix's newest documentary, The Crash.

00:27:38.340 So just in case our audience hasn't watched the documentary yet, let's show the trailer

00:27:43.180 before we get into it.

00:27:46.880 This is the worst crash I've ever seen.

00:27:48.700 Three occupants, 17-year-old female still breathing.

00:27:51.800 a car crash

00:27:55.060 claimed two young lives

00:27:56.560 and they injured a third

00:27:57.680 early yesterday morning

00:27:58.920 this is the best friend group

00:28:02.400 that I've ever had in my life

00:28:03.560 we had just graduated high school

00:28:05.480 Dom and Kenzie

00:28:11.340 I love you baby

00:28:12.240 they're such a duo

00:28:13.140 I was Davion's best friend

00:28:15.740 and we are going to be unstoppable

00:28:21.800 That split second changed all of our lives forever.

00:28:32.900 It didn't add up.

00:28:35.140 It was hard to comprehend that she could just drive into a wall.

00:28:41.660 I would never see her purposely wanting to hurt them. 0.88

00:28:44.760 This was clearly a toxic relationship. 0.99

00:28:47.620 we needed to get a full picture of who mackenzie shirrilla was you can go yourself

00:28:55.540 the most significant piece of evidence there was no breaking

00:29:01.920 this was not an accident

00:29:06.840 what took place inside that car

00:29:17.920 i think that's the million dollar question but just to catch everyone up 17 year old 1.00

00:29:26.820 mackenzie shrilla she drove into a brick building at almost 100 miles per hour killing

00:29:31.780 two passengers, her boyfriend, Dominic Russo, Dom, and also a friend, Davion Flanagan, who

00:29:38.300 one was 20 and one was 19. She went to trial, she waived her jury trial and had a bench trial,

00:29:43.620 and the judge found her guilty on numerous charges, including two counts of aggravated

00:29:47.920 vehicular homicide. The judge, and we'll listen in just a minute, the judge highlighted that she

00:29:52.700 didn't believe the act was reckless, but she thought it was a mission of death. So let's

00:29:56.800 listen to the portions of her ruling while we show the video of the moments before the crash. 1.00

00:30:01.780 She morphs from a responsible driver to literal hell on wheels as she makes her way down the street. Mackenzie alone made the decision to drive the car, to drive an obscure route, a route she visited a few days before. She had a mission, and she executed it with precision. The mission was death.

00:30:22.540 so samantha i mean i watched it i actually watched it it was riveting and let's just say

00:30:33.760 that the defendant here mr rilla does not come across very sympathetically but the only people

00:30:39.300 who seem to come across worse are her parents especially her father so i have so many questions

00:30:44.540 for you because you're you're an expert on this matter just what do you first off what do you

00:30:48.600 think happened? I mean, in my mind, it was she and her boyfriend got in another fight and she went

00:30:54.240 crazy and had a death wish, because I can't imagine that she tried to kill them without 0.84

00:30:59.260 knowing that it would be likely that she would die too. So is that what you think happened or 0.94

00:31:03.880 something else? Yeah, I mean, so Mackenzie, from a clinical perspective, has what we know to be 0.96

00:31:11.600 a borderline personality disorder and it's pretty obvious self-evidence and so while yes she

00:31:22.480 absolutely in my opinion was in a rage I think it was facilitated by fears of losing Dominic

00:31:30.080 but also anger that was overwhelming her that morning because of Davion as well which is

00:31:39.560 another conversation that most people haven't really touched upon yet. But also McKinsey was

00:31:45.760 an avid marijuana smoker. And while most of us think it's a pretty harmless drug

00:31:50.360 for a person with this underlying personality disposition and the amount that she had been

00:31:57.360 smoking, my guess is she was in a form of withdrawal because she had stopped within 24

00:32:03.900 hours of the accident. So I think it was, yes, what you're saying, but there's more to it than

00:32:10.040 that. That's interesting. So when we saw at the end of the documentary, for those who haven't

00:32:15.440 seen it yet, you know, Mackenzie is interviewed and it becomes clear at the very end that she's

00:32:20.240 got a lawyer in the room. You don't see the lawyer, but the lawyer's back in the corner.

00:32:23.260 And I can't help but think that the lawyer was there and, you know, drug there and didn't want

00:32:26.540 to be there. But you see her turn back to him or her and, you know, make sure that she did a good

00:32:34.280 job. She says, I just want to make sure that I'm big on the no intent. There is no intent whatsoever

00:32:38.920 and I have excessive amounts of remorse and it's not intentional and I'll do everything I can to

00:32:43.220 prove that. It's almost like that's sort of scripted. You know, I know that you've said in

00:32:48.760 your analysis before that you believe that she was acutely aware of the public sentiment about

00:32:53.060 her and that she's doing the documentary because she doesn't want people to think she's a monster

00:32:56.720 is that um you know that section where she's looking back to her lawyer and making sure that

00:33:01.660 everything she did everything okay and i did okay is that what your reaction is to that moment 0.92

00:33:06.640 you know you have to also understand that the sharilla parents her parents uh do not allow

00:33:15.180 mackenzie to take responsibility for herself and you know most of my career i've worked with young 0.55

00:33:20.300 adults and adolescents and a lot of families and a lot of parents. Most parents want you to help

00:33:26.380 their child to learn to take responsibility. That's what they're asking of you as a clinical

00:33:31.020 professional. Mackenzie's family does exactly the opposite. They will not allow her to be

00:33:37.660 responsible for anything she says or does. Because this, you know, from my view, this was predictable.

00:33:44.300 This accident could have been avoided long before, and she was on a very predictable course that was bound to end this way or in a similar way.

00:33:57.040 Yeah. Dave and I were talking about that at a break. I mean, I have an 18-year-old that just graduated high school, and I was immediately, both of us agreed, I mean, the parent, what the hell?

00:34:07.540 you know, what are the parents doing? I mean, yeah, like what, I mean, what's, yeah, what's

00:34:11.840 wrong? So you've done a linguistics analysis of, you know, of the parents. Can you tell us about

00:34:16.940 that? Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, when you have somebody who starts threatening suicide,

00:34:23.120 the way that Mackenzie did going back to, certainly we know freshman, sophomore year

00:34:29.040 in high school, probably middle school, these tantrums, these anger outbursts, rage outbursts,

00:34:36.340 really. And she would threaten suicide. That was the go-to threat. Now, when you have a child

00:34:41.580 that's go-to threat suicide, you start to learn as a parent to get into a pattern of just appease

00:34:48.300 them. You don't want to make them feel bad about themselves. And that pattern of appeasing and lack

00:34:54.260 never allowing her to take responsibility. I mean, this is the inevitable outcome when you have a

00:34:59.780 borderline personality disorder and a child who was in the midst of a pretty severe substance use

00:35:04.740 abuse episode, right, for many years.

00:35:09.700 So interesting, because I thought the best argument from the defense lawyer in court was 1.00

00:35:15.520 she had to know if she did this on purpose, she would kill herself. And yet there's no indication

00:35:20.340 she ever was suicidal. In fact, her best friend said she loved life. She was like a narcissist,

00:35:25.940 and she would never try to kill herself. But what you bring up is so important that it turns out

00:35:30.520 she has repeatedly threatened suicide so that's important piece of information here yeah for years

00:35:36.960 and years she also would talk to dom i mean i've listened to hundreds of hours at this point of

00:35:43.380 everybody and everything read thousands of text messages between her and dom she would repeatedly

00:35:48.640 talk about how much she hates herself threatened dom with hurting herself i mean routinely it had

00:35:55.420 become a normal part of their interaction um everybody that knew her knew that this was a

00:36:01.620 part of how she was all of her friends everybody that knew her knew oh so her best friend is a

00:36:07.140 liar because i thought it was also very important that the lawyer the prosecutor said on camera said

00:36:13.280 oh you spoken to the best friend i haven't she won't return my calls what did she say i would

00:36:18.220 have loved to have talked to her so it looks she looks bad too then well you have to remember rosie

00:36:23.780 is an influencer. She has a lot of followers, I believe, either on TikTok or Instagram. I don't

00:36:29.980 remember which. So she has her own personal investment in, I want to say, you know, looking

00:36:37.440 good, coming out in a way that looks better for her. And that then also means no intent on the

00:36:46.100 part of her really good friend, Mackenzie. That's interesting. When you said the thing

00:36:52.480 about her trying to commit suicide. Cause I would, I'm like Dave, when I saw the documentary,

00:36:56.460 I immediately thought, well, either she did it or she was trying to kill herself. And, you know,

00:37:01.060 if she was trying to kill herself, why didn't they use that as a defense? Cause that's a, 0.66

00:37:04.760 I mean, that's a plausible defense. You know, she could have a mental health defense 1.00

00:37:07.400 and what you're saying about the parents, as soon as I just heard you say that, I'm like, 0.55

00:37:10.880 oh my gosh, that totally clicks. Because I know as a defense lawyer, a lot of times we're stuck

00:37:14.860 by what our clients want us to do. And if the parents and, you know, Mackenzie, a lot with the

00:37:19.740 parents because of her age, you know, did not want that defense, did not want a mental health

00:37:24.500 defense put forward, which happens a lot. I mean, most of the public thinks that everybody wants to

00:37:28.740 get off by not guilty by reason of insanity, but it's actually more often than not that clients

00:37:33.020 forbid us from presenting that defense because they don't want to go to a, you know, a mental

00:37:37.520 institute because you could essentially be locked up for longer. And it seems like the parents

00:37:41.960 thought that she was innocent. And so they probably thought she was coming home, didn't

00:37:45.320 want to use this mental health defense because she could end up spending the rest of her life

00:37:48.440 in a mental institute. I mean, that's kind of what it sounds like. Maybe the dynamics behind, 0.99

00:37:53.320 you know, all this with the parents. I mean, do you agree with that? Do you think that's plausible?

00:37:57.420 Yeah, a couple of things, too. So one of the symptoms of borderline is disassociation. So

00:38:05.320 it's sort of like a sense of unreality, like I'm not embodied. So if you think about the suicidal

00:38:12.500 intent. I don't think that Mackenzie actually understood. Really, this is how dangerous it is

00:38:19.260 to protect your child from not taking responsibility from themselves. Then they don't

00:38:24.000 understand, you know, yeah, I'm about to drive this car into a wall, but there's not going to

00:38:28.720 be a consequence. We're all just going to get up and walk out of it tomorrow and we're going to go

00:38:32.660 about our lives, right? Like, I don't think Mackenzie understood at that moment that it was

00:38:38.940 the end i really don't even though i agree that she did it on purpose knowing that she could lose

00:38:45.320 her life um yeah then you asked another question and i don't remember what it was right now what

00:38:51.340 was that was it you answered it that was fascinating samantha you brought up davion

00:38:55.880 earlier and i just that's another uh loose end here because what a tragedy he was not the

00:39:01.180 boyfriend he was in the backseat of the car apparently and just an innocent victim of this

00:39:06.060 awful individual. What's your take? How does he play into this? You were alluding to it,

00:39:10.720 how it's a whole nother matter here. Yeah. So it's really interesting. When I did the

00:39:15.340 in-depth statement analysis of McKenzie, I expected him to be, you know, like everyone

00:39:21.000 described, cargo in the back seat. But she had very distinct feelings for him. She that morning,

00:39:28.240 she was angry with him. Now, I can't entirely discern whether he had been living at the house

00:39:35.440 at this time or not, but it appears to me that on that morning, what most likely happened was

00:39:42.740 Mackenzie wanted to be alone with Dom and was irritated by Davion being there, by his presence,

00:39:51.080 feeling like when he was with Dom, Dom's attention was going to be on Davion and not on Mackenzie.

00:39:57.720 And that is how petty Mackenzie is, right? Like she wanted all of Dom's attention all the time. 0.99

00:40:04.820 and felt like if Davion was there,

00:40:07.900 that would mean she wasn't going to get it.

00:40:10.300 And so there was definite anger

00:40:12.200 specifically targeted at Davion on that morning

00:40:15.940 from her statement.

00:40:18.960 Wow.

00:40:19.760 Wow.

00:40:20.240 So I want to talk a little bit about her life in prison.

00:40:23.180 So apparently she's had a girlfriend in prison

00:40:25.720 that her girlfriend, they've now broken up.

00:40:29.040 Does it surprise you at all, your analysis of her,

00:40:32.240 that she would be building these types of relationships

00:40:34.080 behind bars no no no i mean she's gonna have many of these types of relationships um you know

00:40:42.020 until she can find one that ultimately she can hold hostage uh you know and i hate to say it

00:40:48.380 that way because it sounds but that is what it is i mean the feeling you know i think unfortunately

00:40:53.000 dom was empathic he was a sweet guy and he you know he was being held hostage by mckenzie yeah

00:41:01.580 Well, Samantha, Ashley and I were talking off air. Ashley made a very astute observation. She saw a scale at Dom's house and noted that Dom didn't really have any job, although they said he was a crypto trader and he bought McKenzie a lot of gifts and he was living pretty well. Was he a drug dealer?

00:41:18.620 yeah of course yeah i mean i mean you know to me i think he obviously was there was scales in the

00:41:26.000 car um but i think he had a lot of aspirations he was very stressed about money actually in the

00:41:32.740 months just before this um you know so he felt like he needed to take care of his family members

00:41:37.760 was very very close family the russo family so you know i think he felt the weight of other

00:41:43.460 people's pain and suffering in a very real way. And that's how Mackenzie kind of got her claws in

00:41:50.500 him. He wanted to help her. I mean, he tried to get her to go to a therapist. He tried to even

00:41:56.280 say, let's go together. We'll go together to get help. I mean, he knew more than I think anyone

00:42:01.780 what the deal was with her. It was really interesting to see. Yeah, if I could follow

00:42:08.680 up on that. Also, Ashley and I were a little surprised that any parent would allow their

00:42:13.340 17-year-old daughter to live with a 20-year-old drug dealer. I mean, she was still in high school

00:42:18.020 at the time. And so she leaves the house while she's 17 to live with her older boyfriend who's

00:42:23.040 a drug dealer. Is that something that struck you as unusual? You know, when you, I mean,

00:42:28.840 her parents were buying her alcohol. They were giving her money for drugs. Anything they could 0.86

00:42:34.020 do to keep her from escalating like the police had been there because of her tantrums when she

00:42:39.880 was a sophomore in high school um you know her tantrums were so extreme she'd break stuff i'm

00:42:46.340 gonna kill myself like she was so out of control so reckless uh so intense that i think her family

00:42:53.340 just learned like give her whatever she wants try to keep the peace and they saw dom as you know

00:42:59.220 like he loved her. He really did try to take care of her. I don't think anybody understood

00:43:03.860 the ins and outs of that relationship, but I'm sure the family was also just happy to

00:43:07.720 not have her in their crosshairs day in and day out. Right. To have her with somebody

00:43:13.200 they trusted and, you know, didn't have to, you know, didn't have to be worrying about

00:43:19.020 her night and day. Having said that, though, I'm not so sure she was living there. So I

00:43:24.120 know we've heard that, but based on the language, uh, it seems like she had stayed there quite a

00:43:30.540 bit, but that whether she was actually living there at the time is, you know, she wasn't actually

00:43:37.740 technically living there. That's how I would say it. Interesting. So she told, so that, you know,

00:43:44.020 she's had prison girlfriends and things like that. And she's told different inmates, different

00:43:47.440 things. She's told some that the crash happened because she was high on mushrooms. And then she

00:43:51.020 told Cheyenne her ex that it was because of POTS and we saw in the documentary her mom saying it

00:43:55.400 was because of POTS you know this nervous system disorder that causes dizziness fatigue things like

00:44:00.640 that and apparently she was diagnosed with that do you think she really believed that it was about

00:44:04.660 POTS or do you think she even knows what she's talking about at this point? Mackenzie? Yeah. No

00:44:10.360 Mackenzie knows exactly Mackenzie knows what happened. You think she's trying to create this 1.00

00:44:15.400 narrative there with pots like that she knows it's a lie yeah yes yeah yeah i mean in the very 1.00

00:44:20.760 first moments you know they have this gypsy language the her and her mom will speak right 0.52

00:44:25.720 and the very first moments after the police show up to talk to her and they're speaking in this

00:44:31.240 gypsy language and she says can i just tell them i had a seizure uh you know so that was from the

00:44:37.080 jump what the plan was and they took it and ran with it um you know the way that amnesia works

00:44:43.240 it's not unusual to have amnesia from a crash, but you don't get amnesia in such a way where

00:44:49.900 you remember everything up through to the turn and then everything immediately following the

00:44:56.320 accident, but not the four seconds between the turn and hitting the wall, right? I mean,

00:45:03.100 it's just, it's silliness is what it is. Yeah. What do you think about that use of gibberish?

00:45:10.160 what's wrong with this family? I mean, and has the family had any accountability,

00:45:17.820 repercussion, responsibility? I mean, have they been in any trouble for being just

00:45:22.320 delinquent parents here? I mean, what's going on with these folks?

00:45:25.580 I think it's surprising to them. I really, I mean, you know, mom is interesting. She's a

00:45:30.520 fascinating character. Sometimes she just says things to Mackenzie to try to appease her that 1.00

00:45:35.600 she doesn't believe. And again, this is from listening to hours and hours of their jail calls.

00:45:40.160 Other times, you know, she does seem to feed into the narrative that, you know, it's not her fault.

00:45:46.320 I mean, they still blame the accident, to be very clear, on the Russo family. 1.00

00:45:50.320 It's all them. 0.99

00:45:51.560 They own the judicial system.

00:45:54.640 You know, they were somehow secretly related to the judge.

00:45:57.780 It's all a big conspiracy.

00:45:59.840 I mean, this is the narrative that mom is sort of feeding Mackenzie.

00:46:03.680 So, you know, this is – they – I think mom is a little delusional herself, is really hoping that she can start like a free Mackenzie movement.

00:46:15.700 You know, I don't think they have anybody telling them the truth, frankly.

00:46:19.480 Oh, my gosh.

00:46:20.320 Well, yeah, and there's – you know, some of the jail calls have actually been released.

00:46:23.200 I know we've got one we can play in a minute, SOT9.

00:46:25.400 But, you know, it's between Mackenzie and her mom, and they were recorded, and they're – it's just – it's kind of disturbing if we could play SOT9.

00:46:31.460 And then I'm really curious, you know, how you think that fits into all of this.

00:46:35.760 So wait, it's all over the world now that today shows like national news.

00:46:39.460 Okay. I got to tell you one more thing.

00:46:40.980 What?

00:46:41.940 It was published in England.

00:46:45.040 What?

00:46:46.280 Yeah.

00:46:47.740 It's world news.

00:46:51.160 I think the Daily Mail just publishes it in all the publications.

00:46:54.980 But yeah, the UK.

00:46:57.400 It's on the Daily Mail?

00:46:59.300 In UK.

00:47:00.580 Maybe Kim Kardashian will reach out herself.

00:47:02.660 That's what I'm saying.

00:47:03.460 I'm hoping.

00:47:04.380 I would understand if they gave me, like, a normal charge.

00:47:06.840 But, like, the charges that they gave me are, like, literally insane.

00:47:10.420 Like, it's not.

00:47:11.520 They're trying to make it seem something that it's not.

00:47:13.780 Like, it's not.

00:47:14.880 Like, I didn't do this on purpose.

00:47:16.720 Like, I got in a car accident.

00:47:18.120 I'm a third victim.

00:47:20.380 Oh, that's so painful to hear that for the families who have to endure that.

00:47:26.820 And I felt bad.

00:47:27.680 You know, I know I talk about Dom being a drug dealer.

00:47:29.440 But, you know, no one deserves that fate.

00:47:31.500 That was just awful.

00:47:32.620 And his parents seemed like good people. 1.00

00:47:34.500 Unlike the Sharrillas, his father and his sister seemed like good people. 1.00

00:47:39.820 And most of it that I thought were Davion's father, his parents. 1.00

00:47:45.120 His father was so compelling.

00:47:46.820 And his sister, unbelievable.

00:47:49.740 Do you think that all this, the fact that we're so outraged on the outside by who she is

00:47:55.340 and how, with the lack of remorse she has,

00:47:59.740 do you think that that's going to prevent her

00:48:01.520 from getting parole in 15 years?

00:48:04.960 I think it depends on what happens along the way, right?

00:48:08.120 I mean, the thing about this type of mental health problem

00:48:11.640 is that she could get better. 0.76

00:48:13.260 I mean, you know, if she had one strong,

00:48:15.960 positive influence in her life,

00:48:18.600 you know, she could get better. 1.00

00:48:20.120 The challenge is that mom, 0.99

00:48:23.160 from what I can tell in these jail calls,

00:48:25.340 really prevents her from ever changing or shifting the narrative. Like they are

00:48:32.040 just totally focused on trying to get her out. You're trying to get her out of prison.

00:48:37.940 Yeah. Not trying to get her through it or have her learn. I want to talk about that. Um, in the

00:48:42.500 time we got left, we have a few minutes left, but apparently this, this, and we're not calling,

00:48:46.600 you know, Dom names or anything like that. We're certainly not trying to disparage, but

00:48:49.580 I think it's relevant to the facts of the case and to their relationship. It appears

00:48:53.540 that Dom always had Mackenzie actually hold her drugs when she was a minor.

00:48:57.760 We've got a sod on that, sod 11.

00:48:59.680 And then I want to talk to you about some of the other things

00:49:02.200 that sort of go along with that.

00:49:05.140 Yeah, like, the only charge that, like, I think that, like,

00:49:07.840 I shouldn't even be charged with it, though, like, because it was Dom. 1.00

00:49:10.720 But, like, I understand I have to take that fucking bullshit. 1.00

00:49:14.260 The fucking drugs. 1.00

00:49:16.460 Oh, yep. 1.00

00:49:17.980 That's irritating as fuck. 0.99

00:49:19.060 And he should have known better, too, and that makes me mad. 0.99

00:49:21.400 I'm mad at him for that.

00:49:23.540 telling you that you can't get in trouble so just to hold everything he always told me that he always

00:49:27.680 had me hold everything i know that's because you were a minor so yeah there's multiple texts also

00:49:34.200 that have surfaced that apparently her parents mckenzie's parents were well aware and they

00:49:37.840 weren't apparently concerned with this drug use her alcohol use i mean if you looked at her social

00:49:42.380 media you could see it so she's 17 she's living with an adult male and if we do the math right

00:49:49.220 when they started dating because they'd been dating for four years she would have been 13 and

00:49:52.520 he would have been 16. So how do you think that that situation was allowed to develop with the

00:49:59.340 Shrillas knowing that their minor daughter was engaged in all these activities? I mean, 0.95

00:50:04.360 dangerous activities with apparently no pushback at all. You know, this is just, this is insane to

00:50:10.860 me. I mean, how do you think that factored into all of this, you know, everything that's happened?

00:50:15.860 You know, when they tried, you know, so for example, there was an incident where they tried

00:50:20.960 to ground Mackenzie when she was a sophomore. And the police wound up at their house because

00:50:26.380 she was breaking things and screaming, and you can't do this to me. I mean, just a complete

00:50:31.380 tantrum. You add suicidal threats, that ends any debate pretty fast. They just wanted to try to

00:50:42.800 get her through it, to try to appease her. You can even hear it in these calls with mom.

00:50:49.100 As soon as Mackenzie escalates, she tries to say anything she can to bring her, she calls it anxiety. Mom calls her tantrums, anxiety, down a notch. And so what do you do in that situation?

00:51:05.800 And, you know, as a professional, those are moments that, you know, you don't you don't feed that.

00:51:11.960 I mean, you don't appease it because that's what will cause it to get reinforced and then grow.

00:51:16.520 But they didn't get help. And I think she was just really, truly out of control.

00:51:21.320 I mean, she was really a monster. And I hate to say that. Right. 0.95

00:51:25.840 As a mental health professional, especially, I don't like using that language. 0.69

00:51:29.000 But she was really out of control, fighting with neighbors, with teachers, with other students, you know, 1.00

00:51:35.440 just a maniac, bus drivers. 0.62

00:51:39.480 Right.

00:51:39.760 So, and then why,

00:51:41.000 so why did the judge go so easy on her?

00:51:43.520 It's a great question.

00:51:45.140 You know, I think because she's young.

00:51:47.820 Right.

00:51:48.500 I think that's why. 1.00

00:51:49.340 She's a monster. 0.99

00:51:49.980 She was so young. 0.99

00:51:51.040 I know.

00:51:51.660 Yeah, but she's 17.

00:51:53.360 Okay.

00:51:54.080 I don't know.

00:51:54.840 I think, I think that's what it was, but.

00:51:56.720 I think she's young.

00:51:57.400 You don't think that might get into it, Dave?

00:51:59.260 She's young.

00:52:01.040 That's fine.

00:52:01.880 Okay.

00:52:02.140 Yeah.

00:52:03.240 Samantha.

00:52:03.520 She certainly didn't accept responsibility,

00:52:04.860 So it wasn't that it's got to be your age. I mean,

00:52:07.140 I think that's the only thing it's got to be your age. And I mean,

00:52:09.760 she's still has brains not formed. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, 1.00

00:52:14.540 thank you so much, Samantha. Where can our listeners find you?

00:52:19.100 Yeah, you can find me on my YouTube page at IDBH true crime.

00:52:24.720 Really easy to find me. Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

00:52:27.940 Look forward to having you again. So up next,

00:52:30.220 we've got your questions and our closing arguments. Stay tuned.

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00:53:41.600 Welcome back to the MK True Crime Show.

00:53:43.900 Now it's time for our closing arguments.

00:53:46.100 Dave, take it away.

00:53:47.800 Thank you, Ashley.

00:53:48.860 And for my closing statement, I want to add a postscript to the Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni case.

00:53:56.740 That's settled before the world could gawk at the latest embarrassing celebrity trial.

00:54:02.320 Eight figures in legal fees later, they settled for exactly zero dollars.

00:54:08.140 They even put out a joint statement claiming the whole multi-million dollar spectacle was actually about raising awareness, whatever that means.

00:54:16.480 talk about an expensive public relations campaign.

00:54:20.200 Now, you may think that a walk-away settlement means nobody won,

00:54:23.920 but you'd be wrong.

00:54:26.100 One side absolutely dominated this case.

00:54:30.420 The lawyers combined.

00:54:33.140 The legal teams raked in about $60 million,

00:54:37.480 which is even more than true crime podcasters make per episode, right?

00:54:42.620 I kid.

00:54:43.940 So what is the true crime lesson learned from all this?

00:54:47.460 Well, it's simple.

00:54:50.020 Litigation is a precise, serious legal instrument, not a branding exercise.

00:54:57.000 If you are going to file a lawsuit, you need a legitimate, viable, legal objective and a clear exit strategy.

00:55:05.060 Otherwise, you're just launching a multimillion dollar fool's errand that serves no one but the billable hour.

00:55:13.280 Courtrooms are meant for achieving real justice, not funding your attorney's next luxury yacht.

00:55:21.560 But if you do have a legitimate case that's going to end up enriching some lawyers anyways,

00:55:25.920 you can reach Ashley or me right here at MKTrueCrime.

00:55:30.860 We'll be waiting for your call.

00:55:32.900 Oh, I love it. I can't wait to get the call, Dave.

00:55:36.820 Well, I want to talk about one of the craziest cases of judicial misconduct that I've heard in quite a long time.

00:55:43.280 I wouldn't say my lifetime, but quite a long time.

00:55:44.980 So recently in September of 2025, the chief judge of the Northern District of Georgia,

00:55:51.000 and what is the Northern District of Georgia?

00:55:52.680 That's the federal circuit that's here in Atlanta, got a complaint about a federal judge

00:55:57.120 out of none other than everyone's favorite Fulton County, Georgia.

00:56:01.080 And the complaint alleged that the subject judge, I'm going to call her the subject judge,

00:56:05.380 and I just said, oopsies, her, I'll tell you who it is at the end, but that the subject

00:56:09.280 judge had an extramarital affair with a law enforcement officer, a uniformed law enforcement 0.68

00:56:14.720 officer, and that they had sex in and out of her office during work hours within distance of the

00:56:21.260 judge's law clerks. So, you know, the judge's law clerks typically are either law students or

00:56:27.140 recently graduated law students, you know, young, impressionable people excited to work for a

00:56:31.320 federal judge. It's a prestigious gig sitting out there doing their business and apparently hearing

00:56:36.800 moans and kissing and hissing and different things like that while they're trying to do their work.

00:56:41.700 Couldn't focus. Saw this going on, you know, while the judge is supposed to be working,

00:56:46.660 while we're paying for the judge to be working. And so one of those law clerks had the guts to

00:56:51.560 file a complaint. And so they filed the complaint. And what happens was it goes to the chief judge. 0.83

00:56:57.700 So that judge sends it to the chief judge of the 11th circuit. What's the 11th circuit? It is

00:57:03.920 literally one step down from the Supreme Court. The circuit courts of appeal are one step below

00:57:08.920 the Supreme Court of the United States. So pretty high up. Sends it to the chief judge for the 11th

00:57:14.300 circuit, known as Judge Pryor. Now, Judge Pryor asks the subject judge, again, the judge accused

00:57:20.520 of this, asks that judge for a response. Says, you know, these are the allegations. Did you have

00:57:26.980 this affair with this law enforcement officer? You know, yada, yada. And she denies it. So this judge

00:57:32.600 flat out denies it. Because she denied it, Judge Pryor did what he had to do. He appointed a special

00:57:38.560 committee to investigate the complaint. So that special committee then had to retain counsel. So

00:57:45.340 we had to pay as taxpayers, we had to pay for counsel to be retained to assist in this

00:57:50.220 investigation. This investigation where the judge flat out, as we'll learn in a minute, lied to the

00:57:56.300 chief judge of the 11th Circuit of the United States Court of Appeals. So this special committee

00:58:01.460 did their investigation. And guess what? They corroborated the allegations. The judge was

00:58:06.600 busted. The special committee said, we know what happened. And here is, you know, here's our facts.

00:58:12.660 What's your response? So the judge had already had one chance at responding and said, no, no,

00:58:17.020 no, it's all a lie. It's all a lie. So this time the judge says, oh, I'm going to recant my denial

00:58:22.120 and I'm going to admit to the affair. So she admits to having this affair with this law

00:58:26.360 enforcement officer in her office during working hours. She recanted her lie. She also admitted

00:58:32.760 another violation, that she had attended a partisan political event. Now, for those that don't know,

00:58:40.860 our federal judges are appointed for life. They don't have elections. They are appointed for the

00:58:45.300 rest of their life. They have to go through Senate appointment. It's a big deal. And because of that,

00:58:49.720 they're never allowed to participate in anything political. They have to be apolitical for the rest

00:58:55.140 of their life. So one of the things they definitely can't do while sitting federal judge is attend a

00:59:01.100 partisan political event. But again, this is Fulton County. So, you know, judge goes, judge goes,

00:59:08.280 judge knows the rules. Judge knows you can't go to a party, a political party event. Judge knows

00:59:13.000 that. And if the judge didn't know it, that's scarier, I think. If the judge was too dumb to

00:59:18.220 actually know she can't break the rules like that, that's a little terrifying for a federal judge. 0.99

00:59:22.560 But either way, either she knew or she didn't know.

00:59:26.340 I don't know which one's worse.

00:59:27.680 But so the subject judge was then accused of the misconduct for the affair in Chambers,

00:59:33.240 attending a political event, and guess what?

00:59:36.060 A new charge, making a false statement to, among others, the chief justice of the 11th

00:59:41.700 Circuit Court of Appeals.

00:59:43.720 The subject judge submitted a response saying that the allegations were outrageous, they're

00:59:48.400 baseless, and specifically denied the allegations.

00:59:51.300 She even accused that poor little law clerk of making them up as retaliation. 1.00

00:59:57.320 That law clerk apparently heard a judge say that she was going home one day because she 1.00

01:00:03.940 had had too many martinis the night before at a primary election victory party for a 1.00

01:00:08.580 district attorney.

01:00:10.100 The law clerks were mortified. 0.99

01:00:12.640 The law clerks did not know what to do.

01:00:15.700 They decided, again, to allege this violation and this special committee did an investigation.

01:00:21.300 Well, who is a local district attorney that had a primary election and really likes Gregory's

01:00:28.580 Martinis? This is Fulton County. Don't forget. So the subject judge gets a lawyer. She responds

01:00:36.440 yet again. Now she's admitted again, having the affair. We're back to admitting having the affair.

01:00:41.620 But on to the DA. She says, well, I've been friends with this DA since 1999. And I just

01:00:47.740 went to a mixer for the DA, you know, a mixer that was before the political event. There just

01:00:52.760 happened to be big campaign event signs and celebrations and things like that. And when she

01:00:59.740 was caught on this, she again says, I didn't do anything wrong. Nothing. It was just private

01:01:05.740 mixer. But someone caught a picture of her with her martini glass that she says did not have vodka

01:01:12.740 in it. And that picture speaks a thousand words. She is standing behind none other than Nathan

01:01:19.320 Wade at Fonny Willis's election event. What happens to this judge, you might wonder? After

01:01:25.780 all of this, the judge admitted, admitted to this word that she had absolute dishonesty,

01:01:32.500 but she asked the committee to take into account her prompt recantation of the false statements.

01:01:38.420 So her excuse was, I lied, but I said I lied really fast.

01:01:43.560 So this is like being a bank robber, getting caught on camera, and then saying, oh, I confess.

01:01:48.920 So since you saw the surveillance videos now, I'm busted.

01:01:51.660 I confess.

01:01:52.580 Please let me off.

01:01:53.880 Well, the special committee did find that her false statements were actually material 0.88

01:01:58.660 and that they were harmful to the administration of the courts.

01:02:01.600 What happened to this judge, you might wonder?

01:02:03.760 What was the punishment for lying during a judicial misconduct investigation,

01:02:07.260 accusing a law clerk of fabricating allegations, having sex in chambers during work hours,

01:02:12.420 an extramarital affair nonetheless, attending political partisan events, and compromising

01:02:17.980 public integrity, public confidence in the judiciary? A private reprimand. A private

01:02:23.780 reprimand. Again, none other than Fonnie Willis and a federal judge sitting here in Fulton County.

01:02:32.860 And if you want to see the picture and you want to read the complaint,

01:02:35.520 I posted it on my Twitter account so that you can read it.

01:02:38.700 It is all over the internet, and it is just as shocking as you can imagine.

01:02:42.780 So that's my rant for today.

01:02:44.260 I'm sorry I went on a little bit long, but I want to thank our guest, Samantha Benigo,

01:02:49.260 and to my co-host, Dave Ehrenberg.

01:02:51.580 And thank you all for joining us.

01:02:53.600 Dave and Phil and I are going to be at CrimeCon this weekend, so we hope that we'll get to

01:02:57.680 see a lot of our listeners there.

01:02:59.520 But everyone else, have a great week.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 30, 2026

Hawaii Doc Gerhardt Konig's Appeal, Ebony Parker Case Dismissed - ＂The MK True Crime Show＂ with Dave Aronberg, Phil Holloway, and Ashleigh Merchant

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