He'll NEVER Endorse Biden Again ｜ Charlamagne tha God x Megyn Kelly - The FULL Interview
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Summary
Charlamagne Thagad joins me to discuss his new book, Get Honest or Die Lying: Why Small Talk Sucks, and why he thinks third parties are a good idea. He also discusses why he doesn t vote for Joe Biden.
Transcript
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Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at New East.
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Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. It is our 800th episode today.
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Wow. 800 episodes. How did we get here? Thanks to all of you. That's how. Thanks so much for
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tuning in this day and all the others. We've had some great shows recently and today is
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yet another that I'm super excited to bring to you. Remember that viral, you ain't black if you're
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not voting for me comment by then candidate Joe Biden during the 2020 campaign? Well, you can
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thank my next guest for that one. Joining me now is Charlamagne Thagad. He is the author of the new
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book, Get Honest or Die Lying, Why Small Talk Sucks. Find out more and get tickets for book signings at
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WhySmallTalkSucks.com. Charlamagne, welcome to the show.
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Thanks, Megyn. Thank you for having me. How are you?
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I'm great. It's so nice to meet you. You've made so much news with politicians and other cultural
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figures over the year, many of which we've played on this show, the soundbites thereof. That one with
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Joe Biden just went completely viral. And then I saw you on The View yesterday where they were trying to
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zero in on you and Biden and this presidential race. And those ladies really, really, really wanted
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you to say that you endorse him. You didn't want to do it, but eventually you admitted, okay, it's
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kind of a binary choice here. I mean, it's basically a binary choice and that you're not going to vote
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for Trump. So why wouldn't you just be explicit about it? I wondered about the hesitation.
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Simply because I'm not a fan. And I don't think that an endorsement... People think that me not
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wanting to endorse means that I'm not voting, which I think is the strangest thing ever.
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There was another moment in that conversation where I even said, hey, there's third-party
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candidates. Whoopi told me she'll beat my behind if I bring up third-party candidates. So I just think
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it's kind of strange where we are as a culture and as a society where it's almost like there's either
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one of two extremes. And if you're a person who just simply chooses to be objective, simply
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chooses to look at both candidates and say, hey, I think there's some right things here. There's some
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wrong things there. There's some good things here. There's some good things over here. Just me being
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able to explore both options are all options that are out there. For some reason, it bothers people.
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Yes. They were really pressing you. They were like, do Biden a solid. They wanted you to go
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to your audience and say, vote for Biden. And it was very strange. You've got some magic wand that's
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going to turn this thing if you just say, I endorse. Can I ask you about third parties? Would
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I mean, I've looked at all of them. I've looked at RFK. I've looked at Marianne Williamson. I've looked at
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Cornel West. I've looked at all of them. I've been looking at third parties since 2016. Like,
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you know, like 2016, people would say we didn't have the best options, right? But I felt like
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Hillary Clinton was overly qualified to be president. But it's not like I didn't explore
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everything. After President Obama, I explored everything. I explored conservatives. I explored
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the Green Party. I explored Democrats. I feel like that's what you should do as an American citizen.
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I don't think the two-party system has been the best thing for us here in America. And I don't
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think there's anything wrong with exploring everything. I'm actually shocked that there
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hasn't been a third-party candidate that's been able to come along and, like, really galvanize
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people, especially being that America seems to be, you know, so disappointed in the choices that we
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Mm-hmm. Do you think that there's, like, more pressure on you to, quote, endorse because you're
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black and there's a presumption that you have some influence with black voters who, not by huge
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margins, but by some margins, are migrating from the Democrat to the Republican Party, or at least
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I think people, I don't know if people are necessary. And I see the numbers, like I think
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I said, what, 22 percent of people, 22 percent of black people may vote for Donald Trump. I think
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that number is overstated a little bit. But my guy, Tim Ryan, you know, who used to be a
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congressman in Ohio, Tim Ryan always, well, a senator in Ohio, I'm sorry, Tim Ryan used to
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always, he talks about the exhausted majority. And I think that's what most people are in this
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country. We're the exhausted majority. So it's not even just about being tired of, you know,
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Democrats or being tired of Republicans. People are just tired of politics, period. You know?
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And I think that's what you're seeing a lot of now. Like, even, you know, having the conversation
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about, you know, who I'm choosing to vote for, listen, I've said it over and over, what
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I think about both candidates, right? And it's only me. I don't know what's going to happen
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between now and November. I don't think much is going to change. But if these people want
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people to be, if these parties want people to be more energized about their candidates,
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You, in the book, you write about your background. You grew up pretty poor in a single wide trailer
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and spending most of your time running around through the woods and had very hardworking mom,
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had a more complicated relationship with your dad. Did you ever think that that kid,
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right, who was learning how to catch a rattlesnake on his spare time, would be in the position now
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where it's like, your magic words of, I endorse this candidate, would be so important, right,
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No, not on that aspect. I always knew that I was, you know, here to do something. I always
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felt that in my spirit. I used to be in my grandmother's yard in Monks Corner, South Carolina,
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and the field, like, there used to be a field in front of her yard that used to separate my
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grandmother's house and, like, my cousin Gloria's house. And it's back when I was smaller,
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the field seems so big, but it's actually not that big. But I used to always be acting like I
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was on a stage. And I used to be acting like, you know, I was performing, right? And it was always
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like I was in a rock band. And then, you know, as I got older, it was like I was a rapper. So I always
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knew that I was, you know, supposed to be delivering some kind of message. And this might sound kind of
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crazy to some people, but I remember meeting a medium back in 2006. And, you know, he said to me,
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he goes, you know, he was just talking to me and he said, you know, you're going to achieve a lot of
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your goals relatively easy. But I just want you to know that, you know, when you get the way you're
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supposed to go, you're here to deliver a message. And that same medium told me that he saw like a
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microphone in my future. And he was talking about radio. And he said he was naming different radio
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personalities. And it was it was not spooky at the time, but it was just like, hmm, he even told me I was
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going to have a daughter. And that was in 2006. I didn't have my first daughter till 2008. So long
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story short, I always knew I ended up having four. Long story short, I always knew that I was here
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to, you know, be on a platform of some some sort. But I didn't know that it would be I didn't know
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I would be Captain Saber Joe in an election. You know, I think I read the book and I really enjoyed
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it. And I think what makes you special is your extreme ability to be introspective,
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reflective about your life, to keep challenging yourself to keep change, keep changing, keep
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growing. And you're very, very honest about what you perceive as your own shortcomings, whether it
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was early on in your marriage, something you addressed, whether it was the life lessons you took
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from your dad and your uncle, and you're sort of growing up, which you realized as an adult weren't so
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great. Or even right down to we don't have to get into it. But like the size of certain man parts
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that you just like Howard Stern style, put it out there, Charlemagne. I have to say you're a brave
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man. I don't know if you call it brave. I just I think that we lack self awareness, man. And I think
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that one of the main reasons that, you know, a lot of people just aren't being honest with
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themselves, which is why the book is called Get Honest or Die Lying, is because it's so easy to be
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real with other people. But it's so hard to be real with yourself. And you know, they have all of
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these cliche terms like I keep it real. But usually the people who keep it real can only do that with
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others. But man, when that mirror gets in front of them, it's very hard for them to have those like
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super honest conversations with they self. And my whole life, that's what I've, you know, challenged
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myself to be just honest, because, you know, my dad used to always tell me something when I was young, he was
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like, man, when you lie to me, you're not lying to me, you lying to yourself. And that's something
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that just always stuck with me. And you can kind of tell the people who are lying to their self in
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our society. And I went on, I went away on a spiritual retreat, you know, earlier this year,
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me and my wife. And one of the things that came up for me during that time away was stop lying to
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yourself and stop volunteering those lies to other people. And that's, that's literally what what I
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wrote this book for. I wrote this book for people to stop lying to themselves and stop volunteering
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those lies to other people. All right, I've got to read you this because my fourth grade boy
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was at an end of year ceremony just two days ago. And my husband and I went and their fourth grade
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teacher read to this class of boys the following poem, which speaks exactly to what you're saying.
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I cried. I'm not going to lie. You're a dad. You can be able to relate. But it's called that guy in
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the glass. It's by Dale Wimbrough. And it goes as follows. When you get what you want in your
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struggle for self and the world makes you king for a day, then go to the mirror and look at yourself
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and see what that guy has to say. For it isn't your mother, brother or friends whose judgment you
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must pass. The person whose verdict counts most in your life is the one staring back at the glass.
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You can go down the pathway of years receiving pats on the back as you pass, but your final reward
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will be heartache and tears if you cheated that guy in the glass. That's exactly what you're saying.
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That's a theme of your book in some ways. Powerful words. Whoever that was who wrote that,
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they remixed Michael Jackson's Man in the Mirror. I just want you to know I'm talking about the man
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in the mirror. Yeah. I'm asking him to change his way. That's all that is. But whoever wrote that is
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absolutely positively true. The hardest thing for us to do is look in the mirror every day and be
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honest with ourselves. And I literally challenge myself every day. I wake up every day and before
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I'm honest with anybody else, before I'm telling anybody else about what I think they may be doing
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wrong or if I give them compliments on what they're doing right, I talk to myself first.
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Like, you know, that inner voice in your head, the things you tell yourself are really the most
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important. And that's what I do every morning. It's something you've worked at, you've cultivated.
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You talk in the book about the therapy you've been through all the way down to, I don't know if
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this didn't exactly come from your therapist, but you have a spiritual guru in your life as well.
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And the tree hugging, you're a tree hugger, but not exactly in the Green New Deal sense,
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Yeah. It's a chapter called Tree Hug the Block. And, you know, I just talk about the benefits of,
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you know, doing things like forest bathing, you know, walking around in your yard with your shoes
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off and your socks off and just doing grounding exercises, you know, going up to trees, putting
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both hands on the trees, putting your forehead on the tree, taking a few deep breaths, you know,
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saying a prayer, you know, sometimes, you know, just, just sitting shirtless with your back to
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the tree, you know, uh, me and one of my spiritual advisors, her name is Yadi Alba. We laugh because,
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you know, she always says, you know, lay down in the ground, face, face down, ass up. Right. And
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just, just let the, let the earth just feel the earth. And man, you'd be surprised how when you're
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stressed out or if, you know, you're, you know, battling like about a depression or your anxiety levels
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are high, you'd be surprised how that just brings you right back to center. And, you know, we used
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to laugh, you know, back at, back in the day at the people who used to consider themselves,
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you know, tree huggers. You'd be like, oh man, they just high. Everything, everything is great
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when you're high. And guess what? Megan, they right. You know, when you're walking around doing
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some grounding in the backyard, even when you're not high, it really does feel great. And it really
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does bring you back to center in a real way. I like the beach too. I like walking, you know,
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barefoot on the beach, you know, I would hope I'm, I hope, I would hope the only time you're
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walking on the beach is barefoot, but walking on the beach, barefoot, going in the ocean, you know,
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you know, being in the ocean, looking right up at the sun, saying a prayer directly from the water
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to the sun, man, all of that brings you back to center in such real ways. I know you say in the
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book, if you, if you're feeling self-conscious about hugging a tree of actually hugging a tree,
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putting your face up against the tree, start small, maybe just sit with your back up against the
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tree. So people don't think you're crazy, but you could kind of graduate to a full five minute
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hug of a tree and it actually could be transformative. That's such a beautiful way
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of dealing with anxiety, which you admit you have dealt with for years versus just taking a pill,
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which is what the medical community will push on you these days.
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Oh, absolutely. You know, I'm not, I'm not against, you know, anybody who needs medication,
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you know, for certain things, but, you know, personally I've, I've, I've never had to use it.
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I remember my father, even when I was young, when they were trying to put me on like
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Ritalin as a child, you know, my father was like, no, he did, you know, back then though,
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it wasn't, you know, he don't need Ritalin cause he don't need to just be on medication. It was,
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he don't need no Ritalin. He needs that beat. Right. So, but even now it's like, I don't,
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we don't, we don't necessarily, medicine shouldn't be the first option all the time. You know,
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I feel like, you know, this is a glorious earth that we, that we're on. And like, there's a lot of
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natural remedies and holistic remedies that we could be, you know, tapping into that bring us
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those same results. A lot of those things in the pharmaceutical, pharmaceutical world too.
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So how did you make it so big in radio and now podcasting too, with the kind of anxiety that
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you suffer from? And as you were growing up, you talk about how it was very much social anxiety.
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How, how did you get over that? How do you deal with that to this day?
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That's the strangest thing about anxiety, right? Like anxiety creeps up on you at weird times. It's
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those times when you're just literally laying on your couch at home. And then all of a sudden you
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get up and you start checking to see if all the doors are locked. Right. Or, or, you know, um,
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like, like you can be laying on the couch and there's a ceiling fan going and you just start
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thinking to yourself, what if that ceiling fan, you know, flies off and like cuts my head off?
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Like, it's just the stupidest, strangest things. But when it comes to like getting in front of a
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microphone and talking to millions of people, yes, there's a level of anxiety there, but for some
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reason it doesn't give you, you know, those same panic attacks of just going through regular everyday
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life. I have no idea why I'm able to get in front of a microphone and, you know, talk to millions of
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people effortlessly, but I can't be in a party with 50 people without wanting to go home, you know,
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because I'm already having a panic attack. Cause I'm thinking about, you know, the worst possible
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scenarios happening. I am too, but it's usually that guy over there is going to come over here
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and talk to me. It's not about the ceiling fans. Oh God, I don't want to do that. That is actually
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another reason I wrote this book. That's, that's, that's why I think small talk sucks because I
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don't think they understand when you're a person who's already dealing with anxiety and you've had to
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say prayers and do breathing exercises and, and, and, and put your beads on, right. And all your, all your
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other things just to show up in the world. The last thing I want to do is have a meaningless
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conversation with a stranger, like at least come into my life or come up to me and bring me a
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conversation of value that may ease, you know, whatever it is I got going on. I tell a story in the book
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about, I tell a story in the book, how I was at the airport and, you know, you know, I'm a person
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who's been attacked in the street a couple of times, right? Like right here, right here in New
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York city, you know, just for things that I've said on the radio, like, you know, back in the day
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though, not, not anything recently, but like over a decade ago. And, but I'm still, you still have
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that PTSD from things like that. So I'm at the airport and this guy comes up to me and he's trying to
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talk, but he's like, not really saying anything. So automatically I'm on alert. And then he finally
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goes, he's stuttering and he's telling me that he has a speech impediment. So he's asking me to bear
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with him while he gets out what it is he's trying to get out. He cut the small talk, you know, and he
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told me exactly what it was from the beginning. So that one little moment eases my anxiety and lets
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me know, okay, this person isn't, isn't a foe. He's not, he's not any type of opposition in any way,
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shape or form. He just has something he wants to say to me and it's hard for him to get out. And if
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that, if that individual who has a speech impediment can let me know that we can do the
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same thing, we should be able to tell people, Hey man, I don't want to talk about that right now.
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And if we ever linked social anxiety to the hatred of small talk, I have to say, I too hate small talk
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and have a fair amount of social anxiety, not anxiety in the regular lane, but social anxiety.
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And I, I had never linked the two. This is actually a, an insightful thought that one is causing the
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other, because I like you am much more comfortable when the conversation is substantive.
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Yes. And you think about it, right? It's a link because when somebody says, okay, Megan Kelly,
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you have to be this place at seven o'clock at night, you're already dreading all the things,
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you know, you have to do in order to get to this place. And if you got something to do the next day,
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you're like, I'm going at seven. I'm going to be out by eight. I want to be back home in my bed by
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nine o'clock. And I hope when I, when you get there, you're thinking about all the conversations
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people want to have with you. You're thinking about, you know, what people are going to try to
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get from you. Cause a lot of, a lot of it is, is people just trying to take from your energy
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at these places. It's not a lot of pouring into you when you, when you go to these events.
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So stuff like that, man, it's like, yes, it does cause a lot of, a lot of social anxiety.
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And it's another reason why I keep telling people small talk sucks. I do not like it in any way,
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shape or form. And it's not even just about the small chit chat either, Megan. It's about
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how we make these micros macros nowadays. So most of the things these people are coming to talk to you
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about, they're not big issues, but folks act like they're the biggest issues in the world.
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And so when the actual big issues come across our desk, we don't even know how to talk about
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them. You know, if we even choose to talk about them at all.
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And that you sound right now to me, like Jocko Willink, the bad-ass Navy, Navy SEAL, who's like
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the godfather of all Navy SEALs, who he came on the show and I was talking to him about all the stuff
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we argue about all the day, every day, all the day. And he was like, just don't give it any energy
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whatsoever. You know, you just, the way you solve these things that are about, you just,
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you don't even talk about them. You don't, I'm like, well, there goes my whole career. I mean,
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that's kind of what I'm in the business of doing.
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No, I don't think you talk about small talk. I think, I think that there's a lot of macro issues
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that you discussed that we both discussed, you know, and it's not that you're not going to ever
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have any small talk. I just want us to cut down on it. And I want us to get into, you know, just
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talking about the big issues, talking about the macro issues, the things that actually matter,
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the things that actually, you know, impact us as a society. And I think social media does a horrible job,
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you know, at, at discussing the macros. I think social media is the place where micros
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go to become macros. And it's these small issues that really don't even matter. And you know how you
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know they don't matter? Because the conversation about them doesn't even last. It'll, it'll, it'll last
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12 hours at best. Give it 24, 24 hour news cycle is, is, is, is stretching it nowadays. If something
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lasts 24 hours, I'm shocked. There's a lot of good advice in here for young people who, and you make
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fun of yourself. And I could relate to this too, about how every generation is like this next
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generation sucks. They're lazy back in my day, you know, barefoot to school, both ways. No,
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but you do raise the point of like telling younger people today, and you have a lot of fans who are
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young in your audience. You're not entitled to anything. You should bring a fair amount of humility
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to your next job. It's hard work and elbow grease grease that are going to get you ahead and not a
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sitting around thinking, why is life so unfair? That's right. Yeah. The more things change, you
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know, the more they stay the same. So, you know, as we live in this society where everything looks
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like it's easier than what it actually is because of social media, like, you know, my guy, you know,
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pastor Steven Furtick, he's actually from my hometown, I was going to South Carolina. He has this quote
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where he says social media is literally everybody is everybody's highlight reel. So you're comparing
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your real life, you're comparing the process that you're, you know, going through in life to somebody
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else's highlight reel. And because of that highlight reel that people are constantly posting, we feel
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like we can just skip steps. We feel like we can just, you know, skip the process. Like everything, you
00:21:38.340
know, takes time. Like there's no such thing as, you know, getting pregnant and then having the baby the
00:21:43.300
next day, you know, you get pregnant and you carry that baby for nine months for a reason. There's
00:21:48.120
different trimesters for a reason. It's a process, you know, there's a process of coals going to
00:21:54.280
diamonds, right? Like it's all a process. And this generation, you know, feels like they can just skip
00:21:59.440
the process only because of social media, because it's so easy to walk down the street and see somebody
00:22:04.780
else's phantom and take a picture in front of it, if that's your thing, and then post it. And then
00:22:08.920
everybody will be putting a hundred emojis in your comments. Like you're out here doing the,
00:22:13.960
you're out here winning. It's not even your car. So it's like, I just try to tell kids,
00:22:19.580
I try to tell the younger generation, you can't escape the process and you, and you got to have
00:22:23.900
patience. Patience is another lost art nowadays because of social media, because you have all of
00:22:29.760
these people lying about where they are in life. Right. And how they got there. And it's definitely
00:22:36.160
not what you do. You, you, you write in the book about how you had, um, a time in which you were
00:22:41.780
dealing, doing drugs. And I think dealing drugs, and that's sort of the birth of your stage name.
00:22:48.700
A lot of our audience was asking in the comments before you came on, what, where, what is Charlemagne
00:22:53.380
the God? And there actually is a very interesting explanation behind it. Can you tell us?
00:22:58.600
Yeah. I come from a very small town in Monks Corner, South Carolina. The population now is probably
00:23:02.600
like 10,000, 11,000 people. But when I was growing up, it was like six to 7,000. So like everybody knew
00:23:08.820
each other. And so when I did get into, you know, selling, selling crack, like I would wear a hoodie
00:23:14.660
and I would tell people my name was Charles, because I knew that if I told them my name,
00:23:22.140
Lennard, right, they would be like, oh, that's Larry's son. Or, oh, that's, that's Julie's son.
00:23:27.300
And it was so funny, Megan, that the people who were buying crack would go tell my parents that I
00:23:33.340
was selling it. Okay. But they wouldn't tell my parents that they were buying it, you know,
00:23:37.660
even though people knew. So Charles was just like a moniker, uh, that I, that I started running with.
00:23:42.760
And then I was, um, in night school, cause I got kicked out of two high schools. I got kicked out
00:23:46.980
of Berkeley high school. Then I got kicked out of Scrappett high school. So I was in night school
00:23:49.780
reading a history book and I saw the Roman emperor, Charlemagne and Charlemagne was French
00:23:56.700
for Charles the great. And, um, he went about spreading religion and education. And I literally
00:24:03.040
just said to myself, that is a cool name. I already called myself Charles. So I'm gonna just start
00:24:08.000
calling myself, uh, Charlemagne. And, you know, back then I used to rap. So it was a cool rap name.
00:24:14.460
And I always said it would look good on, on a marquee or on the front of a book.
00:24:20.360
And it does, it does. And where did the God come from? My husband, Doug has resolved to
00:24:24.100
start using that after many phrases, after having seen me reading your book.
00:24:28.800
I study, uh, I studied the 5% teachings, you know, and in the 5% teachings, they teach that,
00:24:33.740
uh, you know, God is a Greek word derived from the Aramic words, which means wisdom,
00:24:38.720
strength, and beauty. And the first letter of each word was used by Greek students when they
00:24:42.280
would identify their, uh, Egyptian teachers. And so it kind of really doesn't make any sense
00:24:47.340
because Charlemagne is Charles the great, and then it's the God. So it's, it's, it's Charles
00:24:51.360
the great, the God, but yo man, I was 17 and smoking a lot of back then.
00:24:57.320
But you know what? It also makes sense to me because the book does spend some time on
00:25:00.280
positive messaging and how, uh, you talk about the astronaut theory and how, when we're raising
00:25:04.940
our kids, we can't, we don't want to overcorrect so much against everybody gets a trophy society
00:25:10.700
that we veer into cynicism with our kids. Like now you, I mean, let's be realistic. You're not
00:25:17.300
actually going to the NFL. Maybe you should channel your energies a different way. You're
00:25:20.840
very much against that. I think the positive uplifting name for yourself is totally in line
00:25:26.580
with now. I know how you parent your own daughters.
00:25:28.840
Absolutely. And, and, you know, I got, I got four daughters and when they ask me,
00:25:33.240
when they tell me they want to do things, I don't shoot it down. Cause I had older people
00:25:37.880
in my life who did that to me. I tell a story in one of my, my first books, uh, cause this is my
00:25:42.660
third book, but I tell a story in my first book, Black Privilege about how, um, I had a, I had a,
00:25:47.460
a cousin aunt. She was like my mom's, my mom's cousin, but she was also like an aunt to me as well.
00:25:52.980
And I remember just talking about all of these big plans I had and all of these things I wanted to do
00:25:58.400
with my life. And I remember she said to me, don't set your goals so high, you know, don't set your
00:26:03.700
goals so high because if you don't reach them, you're going to be disappointed. And I paused for
00:26:07.940
a second and I said, that is the stupidest shit I ever heard in my life. Like, why would you ever
00:26:12.820
tell a child that? Like, I wasn't even a child. I was like, I don't know, 19, 20, but I was like,
00:26:17.540
why would you ever tell anybody that? So my thing with my kids, when they want to do something,
00:26:22.560
yo, let's try it out. Like I got one of my, one of my daughters recently started soccer and,
00:26:27.840
you know, she, she liked it at first past couple of practices. She don't want to go.
00:26:33.240
Why? She said, it's too hot out. I don't want to be out there in that heat. I'm not going to force
00:26:38.200
her to go out there and do the soccer if she doesn't want to. If she, cause if you genuinely
00:26:42.440
love something, you're going to want to do it regardless, right? That's how I was with radio.
00:26:47.000
It didn't matter that I wasn't making any money. I've been doing radio 26 years. I didn't start making
00:26:51.060
money really, really in radio till probably my, I don't know, 10th, 12th year in radio. So it took a
00:26:57.760
long time. You know, I started doing radio in 1998. I didn't start really making money till
00:27:02.200
probably 2010. Right. So, but I loved it. So that thing that you, uh, love to do that is probably
00:27:10.560
going to change your life is that thing that you're going to do for free. So if she's, if she
00:27:15.040
doesn't want to go do soccer, I'm not, I'm not going to press her to do it. Yeah. There's no,
00:27:19.220
I'll give it, I'll give it an opportunity to that at this point in your life. So I want to ask you
00:27:24.660
this because you're very positive in your messaging. You're real, uh, but you're positive
00:27:28.220
in your messaging. And then there was a chapter I wanted to ask you about, which was 16. This
00:27:33.000
wasn't you. It was, uh, Aaron McGruder, who was the man behind the boondocks comic strip.
00:27:38.820
And it was the only chapter I was like, wow, well, this is not positive. This is, this is some stark
00:27:44.580
stuff. And it's about definition. Yeah. It's about race in America. And it's about, you know,
00:27:51.920
us allegedly being a white supremacist country and Republicans don't do shit for poor white people,
00:28:00.080
but they still vote Republican and they do it because if they were to vote Democrat,
00:28:04.800
the N word would benefit. It's got a lot of incendiary thoughts on how evil Republicans are
00:28:09.760
because they really just exist to keep the black man down. And I, it's not you, but you have put it
00:28:15.680
in your book by this guy, Aaron McGruder. So what are your feelings on that? Um, I think Aaron is
00:28:22.220
expressing an, uh, uh, an emotion and feelings and saying things that a lot of people feel,
00:28:28.420
you know, a lot of people in the black community, absolutely positively feel like that, but it's not
00:28:32.100
even, you know, just Republicans. I just feel like, you know, government in general, I think that there's
00:28:37.040
been a lot of systemic things that have been done, you know, to, to, to black people in this country
00:28:41.660
to put, you know, black people in certain positions in this country. And there hasn't been enough
00:28:46.040
systemic things done, you know, to get us out. You know, I think one of the, you know, main critiques
00:28:50.760
of the democratic party is the, you know, they are supposed to be the party that, that represents us
00:28:56.060
and, and, and, and supports us. And, you know, people don't feel like they have fought hard enough
00:29:01.720
for black people. That's why every, you know, presidential election cycle, we're back having these same,
00:29:07.720
you know, conversations about, you know, Democrats going out there and earning the black vote. Like
00:29:13.080
if Democrats had done, you know, historically what they say they are going to do for black people,
00:29:20.680
you know, they wouldn't be in this position every four years where they're, they're out here
00:29:25.100
trying to push me to endorse. What do you think that is? Like, what do you think that is? Because
00:29:28.380
I know there's a divide between the parties and some factions of the country that, you know,
00:29:32.540
the Democrats, and we keep hearing them saying things that we heard Biden at the Morehouse
00:29:36.600
College the other day saying with a very dark message about this country, that the country
00:29:40.620
doesn't love you back as a young black graduate and talking in very negative terms about what their
00:29:46.440
futures look like. And you contrast that just to what Barack Obama said in front of the same audience,
00:29:51.240
you know, eight years ago, it was very uplifting and also empowering. Like you can do it. You can make
00:29:58.200
a difference in this great country. You have nothing but blue sky ahead of you. Very different,
00:30:02.680
stark messages. What's in chapter 16 sounds more like Biden. So how do you see it? More like Biden,
00:30:09.300
more like Obama? Well, I think I would like to see it more like President Obama. And the reason I
00:30:16.200
would like to see it more like President Obama, because as he said, these are his words, the
00:30:20.180
audacity of hope. Like you have to be optimistic. Like I'm optimistic because I was raised on a dirt road
00:30:26.200
and, you know, Monk's Corner in South Carolina. My mother was an English teacher. The most she ever made,
00:30:30.120
you know, was $30,000 a year at one point. You know, my father was a great guy, you know, who
00:30:36.100
had a lot of flaws. Right. And he was a construction worker, but he also had his own mental health issues
00:30:41.260
and his, you know, he dealt with substance abuse. And I'm not supposed to come, you know, out of
00:30:46.440
out of that circumstance. But because, you know, I was able to come out of that circumstance and just
00:30:52.400
because of, you know, other conversations I've seen from people who come from environments like mine,
00:30:57.040
I have to have the audacity of hope. I have to have, you know, optimism, but I also have to deal
00:31:02.620
with reality too. And it's also, it's just interesting that, you know, President Biden
00:31:07.460
would go to Morehouse and, you know, make those statements when a lot of those issues, those
00:31:13.100
problems he's contributed to, you know, whether it was, you know, the, the, the 86 mandatory minimum
00:31:18.820
sentencing, you know, whether it was the 88 crack law, the 94 crime bill, there's a lot of things
00:31:23.720
that he, you know, uh, contributed to in regards to keeping, you know, uh, the, the, the black man
00:31:29.880
down. Right. So, so it's, it's just interesting that he would go to Morehouse and, and, and talk
00:31:35.440
like that. You're the president of the United States of America. You are the person that, you
00:31:39.200
know, we are looking to, you know, at least if not change some of those things, speak to changing
00:31:46.040
some of those things because you contributed to so much of that. Hmm. What do you think? I mean,
00:31:51.660
Tim Scott, he's from South Carolina, uh, still reportedly on the short list toward becoming
00:31:56.600
Trump's VP. He says, firmly believes America is not a racist country, a belief I share. Do you?
00:32:04.940
No, I highly disagree with that. I mean, of course there's systemic racism in this country. I don't
00:32:09.740
believe every single white person in America is racist, but there is, there has been systemic
00:32:16.000
racism. Like, like it, yes, a hundred percent. Sure has been. You can look at everything from,
00:32:21.620
you know, slavery to, you know, Jim Crow laws, to redlining, to, you know, the war on drugs. Like,
00:32:28.960
yes, like the act, the act like there is not systemic racism in this country is silly and foolish.
00:32:35.040
Today, 2024. I mean, it's like to think that Democrats who run the education system and largely
00:32:40.380
the criminal justice system and so many, so much of government today who pride themselves
00:32:44.860
on being DEI and, you know, anti-racist and all that, that, that they're running these massive
00:32:50.140
racist organizations would seem a stretch to even some of them. Well, you have to have these DEI
00:32:56.620
programs because of systemic racism. So, so things like that tell you that these, uh, systemic racism
00:33:02.120
still exists because you still have to have, you know, programs like that to ensure that there's
00:33:06.960
diversity, to ensure that there's equity, to ensure that there's inclusion. So yes, systemic racism
00:33:12.300
absolutely still exists in, in, in America. It's not something, it's, it's something that we can
00:33:17.020
dismantle, but we have to want to dismantle it. And, and the only way we're going to dismantle it
00:33:21.780
is if we first acknowledge that, that it exists. Like I, as I say, you know, in the book, and it's a
00:33:27.400
great quote, you just can't heal what you don't reveal. I don't think any of us do any, do, do
00:33:32.100
ourselves any favors by acting like these things don't exist. You don't, I mean, the, I think the
00:33:39.520
difference between where you are and where I am is I acknowledge everything you said about this
00:33:44.140
country and its history. You know, we had a couple rough 200 years from the foundation with slavery
00:33:51.720
and then through the Jim Crow laws. But then we got to a place where we passed the 1964 civil rights
00:33:57.180
act. And we had a way, a revolution in the country to start looking at this differently. And when I
00:34:02.760
grew up in, you know, the eighties and the nineties, race relations had vastly improved. We were hanging
00:34:09.300
out with one another, not thinking about skin color all the time. We actually instituted affirmative
00:34:13.000
action programs, which were upheld under law, even though they're not totally consistent with our
00:34:16.640
constitution, but we did all of that because we understood the history. And now we're in this place
00:34:22.740
where it seems to be flipping to what Kendi says, which is anti-white racism. That's fine. That's
00:34:29.460
how we're going to remedy the remnants that are still left over the past. And I think that's causing
00:34:34.060
more racial division. Am I wrong? Um, I think social media makes us think that, you know, uh,
00:34:42.980
certain things, I think social media amplifies certain things on purpose. And we have to be very
00:34:48.520
careful about that because we don't even know, uh, a lot of these conversations are real on social
00:34:54.120
media. Like, you know, I, I still believe that Quintel Pro is alive and well. And I think that
00:34:58.620
a lot of times these conversations that happen on social media really just happen to keep us all
00:35:04.200
having a whole lot of small talk, having a whole lot of small talk about, you know,
00:35:10.360
foolishness and nonsense, like the, like anti-white racism. Like what, what is that? You would have to
00:35:17.240
tell me what that is. Like what is, what is it's what Kendi's pushing? What Kendi says is the answer
00:35:22.060
to past discrimination is future discrimination and present discrimination against those who
00:35:26.220
perpetrated it. Notwithstanding the fact that we had nothing to do with what happened in the 1860s.
00:35:31.900
We weren't around. It wasn't us. It wasn't most of our ancestors. And most of us have a completely
00:35:37.780
open-minded attitude toward our black and brown friends and would never do anything to hurt them or
00:35:43.380
see them as less than, and we don't want us or our children being punished because of sins of the
00:35:48.300
father, grandfather, great, great, whoever. Gotcha. Yeah. I can't, I can't speak for all
00:35:52.700
black people because all black people aren't monolithic, but you know, all the black people
00:35:56.120
that I know, they just want equality. You know, they want to be, they, they, they want to be treated,
00:36:01.100
you know, fairly. They don't want to, you know, walk outside and have, you know, a police officer
00:36:06.160
harass them just because of the color, the color of their skin. You know, they don't want to be,
00:36:10.660
you know, denied a job or, you know, a place to stay, you know, just because of the color of
00:36:16.520
their skin. We don't want to be black supremacists. We don't want to, we don't want to, you know, be
00:36:22.280
what, you know, white supremacists were to black people. Like that's not, at least the black people
00:36:27.520
I know, that's not what, what, what, what we're after in any way, shape or form.
00:36:33.140
Well, I think the messaging of the book on empowerment and possibilities and getting honest,
00:36:40.660
as, as it's called, getting honest or dying, lying, um, makes a ton of sense. And I hope we
00:36:46.440
can continue this conversation. I know you got to run, but I have so much more. I want to talk to
00:36:50.220
you about it. So please come back. Would you? I mean, I got like 10 more minutes if you want to
00:36:54.560
talk. Oh, you do? Oh, great. Oh, okay. Sorry. No, let's, let's keep it rolling then. All right.
00:36:59.680
So let's, can we, can we spend a minute on politics? Cause I am interested in your thoughts on it. Cause I
00:37:04.460
know you're not a fan of Trump and I think that you think he's racist, but you tell me because I
00:37:12.680
look at Biden's history of comments and I'm like, Oh my Lord, including to you, that thing about if
00:37:17.080
you're not going to vote for me, you ain't black. That's listed on the, on the tally of the racist
00:37:21.960
or racially insensitive things he said. You know, what's, what's the more interesting conversation
00:37:27.300
for me. And this is, I'm glad you brought that up in regard to Trump. Why does nobody ever talk
00:37:33.640
about him being unpatriotic? Like not, like not being patriotic. And what I mean by that is
00:37:39.580
if he says he wants to suspend the constitution to overthrow the results of an election, or,
00:37:45.380
you know, his lawyers were in court and his lawyers were like, well, he never agreed to support
00:37:48.960
the constitution. Or we saw him, you know, uh, attempt to lead a lead and attempted coup of this
00:37:55.540
country. Like there's, that's just unconstitutional. Like, why does nobody ever say
00:38:01.000
he's not a patriot? Like, why does that discussion ever, never come up? Because when I think about it,
00:38:06.860
when I think about how mad, you know, uh, you know, uh, conservatives seem to get sometimes when
00:38:12.600
they see people, you know, taking a knee right at, at, at football games and they call that, you know,
00:38:18.600
not being patriotic. How come nobody ever says, you know, wanting to suspend, you know, the constitution,
00:38:24.020
to overthrow the results of an election? How come nobody ever says that's not patriotic?
00:38:28.640
Yeah. Well, I mean, there's no question. I don't know what specific you're, you're referring to,
00:38:32.540
but I've seen Trump truth social posts that speak to exactly what you are saying. I don't know about
00:38:38.500
in court, but he's suggested things like that. Um, I think I'm not going to defend that. I think,
00:38:45.180
I think, but, but here's the thing. So, and I don't defend Trump's behavior after January 6th
00:38:50.480
at all. I don't think he behaved well in any way, shape or form, but I just think that there
00:38:55.540
are bigger issues. And I think if you're going to talk about actions that are extra constitutional,
00:39:00.940
there are sins, I mean, grave sins on both sides, but especially on Biden's side, you know, this,
00:39:06.780
the end around he did on the Supreme court on some of the COVID stuff on the, uh, rent abatement,
00:39:12.560
uh, possibilities on now the student loans that he's not allowed to be doing, but he's trying to find a
00:39:17.620
way to do it anyway. I'm trying to get Trump off the ballot so that voters can't vote for him on
00:39:23.440
using the justice system for the first time in almost 250 years to go after a political opponent,
00:39:29.600
all those things. They don't make me say yay for all the stuff Trump did post January 6th,
00:39:36.100
but they, even the playing field for me more where I'm like, I'm just going to vote on who I think is
00:39:41.600
going to get the country in the best shape. I think that's what most people are, but you know,
00:39:46.860
even, even with what you said just now, it's kind of like the Spider-Man meme, right? Because
00:39:50.520
you know, you can say those things about president Biden, but then you point to Donald Trump in the,
00:39:55.340
in January 6th, you can also point to Donald Trump trying to find 11,000 more votes, you know,
00:40:02.020
in Georgia. And, you know, we always know voter suppression is a thing. So it's just like,
00:40:07.680
listen, man, I just don't believe in politicians, period. And, and, and as I said earlier, anybody,
00:40:12.780
anybody that, anybody that wants me to, you know, endorse a politician at this point,
00:40:19.080
then y'all have to put out some better candidates and put out some people that I believe in,
00:40:24.000
because I don't believe in any of them. But to your point, I'm not sitting out the election
00:40:29.240
in November, which is something that I would also like to just put on record. I've never told anybody
00:40:35.060
not to vote. Now, I've had conversations with people and I've said, I've, I understand why people
00:40:40.480
don't want to, but I think that you should still get out there and vote for, you know, who you think
00:40:46.820
can, can, can, can keep this country on course. You know, like for me right now, I'm, I'm, I feel
00:40:52.440
like I'm voting to preserve, you know, democracy because, you know, I, I've read Project 25. I don't
00:40:58.760
know how you feel about it, but, you know, Project 25, it's, it's very terrifying to me. And, you know,
00:41:05.120
like I said, we've seen what Donald Trump has attempted to do, to do on, on, on January 6th.
00:41:10.000
And, you know, hearing rhetoric, like I want to suspend the constitution to overthrow the results
00:41:14.760
of an election. That's, that's scary. That's not the kind of America I want to live in.
00:41:21.300
Well, what do you think about Joe Biden bragging that he's doing ends around the Supreme Court,
00:41:25.780
which is what he just said this week on this so-called student loan forgiveness,
00:41:30.620
which essentially means the truckers listening to us right now are going to have to pay off the
00:41:34.160
student loans of the rich college elites. Something he was told by the Supreme Court,
00:41:38.760
he didn't have the power to do. He's not a king and he's out there bragging that he's doing ends
00:41:42.900
around them. Notwithstanding rulings, he's forced to follow like that stuff too, is extra
00:41:48.580
constitutional. His refusal to enforce the border law, extra constitutional. I mean,
00:41:54.540
he could have been impeached for just what's happening along the Southern border alone,
00:41:57.440
not to mention him having classified documents and all the other laws that he
00:42:01.280
has allegedly broken. I look at him and I think he's got no moral high ground.
00:42:08.580
I don't think either one, you cannot talk about anybody standing on a moral high ground when
00:42:13.800
Donald Trump is on the other side. I don't think either one of them can talk about, you know,
00:42:19.980
standing on moral high ground. But, you know, when it comes to doing things like the student loan
00:42:24.180
debt, this might sound crazy, but I know this is why people like certain elected officials. I feel
00:42:31.420
like this is why some people like Trump. I think people have no problem with you bending the rules
00:42:38.080
or breaking the rules if there's a tangible benefit to it. I think that, you know, a lot of people like
00:42:46.180
Trump and they support Trump because they know Trump is willing to go hard for who he considers
00:42:53.040
his base. Now, you know, like Aaron said in Death of a Nation in my book, you know, he's convinced
00:42:59.840
these poor, you know, white voters that he is for them, but their conditions aren't getting any better
00:43:07.400
But how can you say that? The economy was much better under Trump and the voter, poll after poll
00:43:13.960
Sure, but it never trickles down to the poor. And I don't even understand why we keep acting like it
00:43:18.600
does. Like, you know, it's like you'll see people say the economy is great. You know, stocks are up.
00:43:24.100
The people I'm talking about don't have no stocks. The people I'm talking about that live in those
00:43:29.020
rural areas in most corner of South Carolina, like where I'm from, they don't know nothing about no
00:43:33.680
damn stock market. They can't see past their bills. All they're trying to do is keep some food on their
00:43:37.560
table and a roof over their head. My first, and we laugh about this.
00:43:41.960
No, but Charlie, under Biden, inflation has risen to plus 17 percent, and then some,
00:43:48.960
it's still hovering. And these people are paying almost 30 percent more on certain things like
00:43:53.560
foods and not to mention gas prices. That's all under Joe Biden because of his spendthrift ways,
00:43:58.540
because he's just dumping the people's money on all sorts of legislation, the so-called Inflation
00:44:03.240
Reduction Act, and the COVID relief that didn't have to go through when he first took over.
00:44:07.900
All those things have consequences. Trump, he kept costs low.
00:44:13.760
Listen, the poor was still poor under Trump, and Trump did convince a whole bunch of poor
00:44:20.680
white people to go out there and vote for him, but their conditions have not changed.
00:44:26.380
I think they've changed for the worse. I'm not saying Trump solved it, but they've changed
00:44:30.180
for the worse under Joe Biden. And the thing is, they think they worry about immigration,
00:44:34.740
right? Immigrants coming in with cheap labor, taking the jobs that were available to them.
00:44:39.380
That's all happening under Joe Biden in record numbers now. The kitchen table issues that people
00:44:46.800
vote on have gotten worse under Biden, were better under Trump. There was a black focus group in,
00:44:53.480
what state was it, Steve? Was it South Carolina? No, it was Georgia. That happened just the other day.
00:44:57.840
The MSNBC went down and conducted, and they asked these black voters, and we're talking about all
00:45:01.780
voters, not just black, but why would you vote for Trump? Like, what are you thinking? Because
00:45:06.980
they said they're going to. Here's what they said. We actually cued it up.
00:45:15.840
Has this trial changed your opinion, even caused you to waver or question that at all?
00:45:21.060
No, it's actually caused me to support him more. I just don't believe that's a coincidence that we
00:45:30.000
have a trial happening in Atlanta. We have one happening in New York. So the question people
00:45:36.560
are beginning to ask themselves, like I did, it's like, why now?
00:45:39.580
I've talked to many people who formally identified as a Democrat. They have changed their political
00:45:44.860
persuasion to independent, and they are looking forward to voting for Trump, because now they
00:45:49.660
find something in common with a political candidate at that level.
00:45:53.800
When you say they find commonality, what is that commonality?
00:45:56.720
They have felt persecuted by the system of American injustice, and it's not a stretch for
00:46:04.480
them to think that Trump may be a victim as well.
00:46:07.300
And there was more on it, Charlemagne, where they said they think he'd be a stronger leader
00:46:16.760
Yeah, I can see where they would feel that way about the stronger leader part. I hate that
00:46:20.880
whole conversation about Black people are gravitating towards Trump because we've been persecuted
00:46:27.540
by the system, and he's being persecuted by that same system. No, Donald Trump is a person
00:46:32.640
who has reaped the benefits of that system. He's a white, male, rich, privileged man. That is the
00:46:39.060
reason that these trials have even taken so long to happen, because they were even dragging their
00:46:43.960
feet. America has no system in place to even prosecute a person like Donald Trump. They never
00:46:51.280
thought that they would have to do that. A former president of the United States of America?
00:46:55.600
Like, no. So I disagree with all of that. I disagree with all of that wholeheartedly.
00:47:02.980
Now, I do feel, if you ask me why people, you know, the Black people, some Black people I know
00:47:08.500
have gravitated towards Trump, you know, a lot of them talk about money, right? Like, they talk
00:47:14.020
about the stimulus checks, and they talk about, you know, the PPP loans, right? And what I would tell
00:47:19.220
them is, yeah, you got some extra money in your pocket, but at what cost? At what cost? Because
00:47:25.640
think about the circumstances that happened in order for you to get that money in your pocket.
00:47:31.180
Millions of people had to die because of COVID, because of, you know, Donald Trump's poor planning
00:47:36.660
in regards to COVID, of him getting rid of, you know, pandemic teams.
00:47:39.700
It's a stretch to blame COVID on him. I mean, I think we have the Chinese to thank for that one.
00:47:43.400
But he did get rid of the pandemic teams that were in place to kind of, you know, at least,
00:47:47.780
at least slow down, you know, things slow down.
00:47:51.180
Oh, come on. And what do we have, Anthony Fauci? I think that's a fair thing to blame on Trump,
00:47:55.800
because he should have turped that guy out long before.
00:47:58.220
I'm just saying, I feel, I think Trump could have handled COVID better. And I don't want to see,
00:48:03.440
I do, I want more, I do, I want more Americans to get more money in their pocket, but, you know,
00:48:08.800
not at the expense of millions of people dying because of, let's just say, poor planning from
00:48:13.980
the government. And you have to say the administration that was in place at that time,
00:48:18.740
because it was the Trump administration in place during that time.
00:48:21.540
All right, well, we'll put a pin in that one. And yeah, going back over COVID is just a bummer
00:48:26.140
in general, but there is a lot more to discuss. You've got a busy day ahead promoting the book,
00:48:30.380
and I wish you all the best on it. To be continued, I hope. Yes?
00:48:33.800
Yes, that's why I like, but that's why I like these conversations. That was not small talk.
00:48:37.420
We did not have small talk the last 10 minutes. And we disagreed and didn't disrespect each other
00:48:43.340
in no way, shape, or form. We had conversation. It wasn't confrontation. Can't America learn
00:48:48.240
something from this, Megan? Yes. Right on. All right. Don't forget, buy the book today.
00:48:54.440
It's called Get Honest or Die Lying by Charlemagne Tha God. It's fascinating, as you can tell, is he.
00:49:01.640
Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.