The Megyn Kelly Show - How America Enabled Putin's Atrocities, and Democracy's Retreat, with Garry Kasparov ｜ Ep. 294

00:00:00.520 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.620 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:14.900 Today we are excited to welcome Gary Kasparov back to the program.

00:00:19.500 We're going to get his thoughts on the awful situation in Ukraine, but how things are going overall there.

00:00:24.180 Also, new sanctions just announced moments ago against Russia in the wake of what's happened there this week.

00:00:30.260 But we're also going to touch in more depth on his remarkable, remarkable life and career from chess prodigy to freedom fighter.

00:00:40.160 And by the way, he has predicted what would happen in the Soviet Union, then Soviet Union, what would happen to Russia, what Putin's next move would be correctly for the better part of Putin's entire time in office.

00:00:53.940 And prior to as well. I mean, so you really my overall impression in preparing for this interview is we should be listening to Gary Kasparov when it comes to what Putin's next move is.

00:01:05.140 I don't know that there's a better person to to listen to.

00:01:09.060 So just a bit about Gary before we bring him on. He was born in the former Soviet Union.

00:01:13.340 By 12 years old, he would be the top child player in all of the USSR, the world under 20 champion at just 17.

00:01:22.540 Look at him there. If you're watching on YouTube, it's like this little boy sitting there against grown men and the best player in the entire world by age 22.

00:01:31.480 He would remain at the top of his game for two decades.

00:01:34.700 His matches were like something out of the movie Rocky. But in this case, the Russian almost always won. 1.00

00:01:41.060 And in this case, we're rooting for the Russian to by 1996. 0.98

00:01:44.300 I knew that I could learn much better because my opponent would need more time to learn and to come back with a really sophisticated counter strategy.

00:02:01.120 But a year later, in a rematch, man lost to the machine, a defeat that would haunt Gary for years.

00:02:09.120 It was through the game of chess that Gary Kasparov's eyes were opened to the West and to the power of democracy.

00:02:15.080 It was life changing, he says. By 2005, he decided to call it a career, putting his chessboard away to join the fledgling pro-democracy movement in Russia.

00:02:24.700 He wanted his children to grow up in a truly free country. And to him, that meant a Russia without Vladimir Putin in charge.

00:02:34.440 He would protest. He would attempt to run for office in a country that makes that virtually impossible against Putin, sometimes landing himself in jail.

00:02:43.380 You're not allowed to protest in the streets in Russia. Even there, he was so popular that the guards wanted his autograph.

00:02:49.720 But by 2013, it became clear he was no longer safe in his own country. And so he left his beloved Russia and family members, including his mother, behind.

00:03:00.520 He would settle in New York City, where he told anyone and everyone as often as he possibly could about the threat Putin poses.

00:03:10.620 At times, he would be dismissed as an alarmist. But his warnings have proven right over and over again.

00:03:17.400 It's almost eerie. In fact, he even wrote a book about all of this in 2015 after Putin's first invasion of Ukraine.

00:03:25.960 Winter is coming was the name. And yet six years later, here we are witnessing the worst crisis in Europe since World War Two.

00:03:38.560 Gary Kasparov is the chairman of Renew Democracy Initiative.

00:03:42.780 Great to have you back, Gary. Thanks for being here.

00:03:45.700 Thank you for the waiting, Megan.

00:03:47.200 Let me just start with winter is coming, because I heard you say, you know, I wrote a whole book about this.

00:03:52.580 I've been talking about this for 20 years. I talk about it as much as I can about what Putin is likely to do.

00:03:58.140 And it's always the more bellicose course.

00:04:00.920 It's always the the the grant, the land grab.

00:04:04.060 It's always the he doesn't respond to weakness.

00:04:07.360 He only respects strength.

00:04:09.240 As you said to me the last time you were on, it's not a question of why, but why not for him?

00:04:13.980 And yet no one no one listened.

00:04:16.360 Now they still look at you and people like you who are saying, trust me, he's not going to back down.

00:04:22.480 Trust me. He only responds to strength and say, well, what's next?

00:04:25.620 What's next? And you you're kind of throwing your hands up in the air saying, I've written it all down for you.

00:04:29.800 Read the book. It's the path is right there.

00:04:32.120 Yes, you're right. And it doesn't make me feel happy that I was right all along, because I thought that we could have learned from history, from the World War Two, pre-World War Two, appeasement policies in Europe that failed so spectacularly.

00:04:48.920 But nobody wanted to listen. I think it's part of human psychology, because the language of appeasement sounds nice.

00:04:55.720 And I think the biggest mistake the free world made about Vladimir Putin and his regime, they knew he was corrupt.

00:05:02.120 They knew it was some kind of a mafia.

00:05:04.040 They knew it was not a democracy, though they they paid lip service and they called it some kind of hybrid democracy, the special democracy, sovereign democracy, whatever.

00:05:12.700 I always say that the moment you see an adjective before the word democracy is wrong, but they never expected him to to go that far because they thought, oh, he's already a mega billionaire.

00:05:27.740 They they have such a comfortable life.

00:05:29.560 They steal money in Russia and they spend money and and and park money in the free world. 0.92

00:05:33.940 So why to risk all not paying attention to his true intentions and I I'm not a shrink.

00:05:41.300 I couldn't read his mind.

00:05:42.500 So I'm not a parapsychologist, but I just listened to Vladimir Putin and I grew up in the Soviet Union.

00:05:48.100 I met enough K.G.

00:05:49.100 And I knew the moment I heard him minister and a part of the successor back in 1999 when he addressed his former KGB colleagues, technically former KGB colleagues at the headquarter in Lubyanka, saying no former KGB officers.

00:06:15.040 Once KGB, always KGB. 0.68

00:06:16.140 That's, you know, for me, was the first warning because I knew what it meant.

00:06:21.440 And he immediately, as a president of Russia, restored Soviet anthem.

00:06:25.220 That was another warning sign.

00:06:27.140 So it's just it's it was an indication of his plans.

00:06:30.580 And the moment I heard him say the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century, I knew he was up to something. 0.63

00:06:38.120 And that's why I've been saying all along, while Vladimir Putin was our problem in Russia in the first decade of the century, eventually he would be everybody's problem if given the chance.

00:06:49.080 And it's very unfortunate that not only his words and again, he had plenty of them said openly, like in Munich at security conference in Europe in 2007, 15 years ago, when he talked openly about the spheres of influence.

00:07:04.680 That's a language straight from the mold of Ribbentrop Pact in 1939 and and lay down his vision of Europe.

00:07:12.020 That is what was NATO being pushed back to 1997 borders and Russia, Russia would claim its rights, quote unquote, for direct or indirect control of former Soviet republics and even Eastern European former Soviet satellites.

00:07:27.420 And then you followed it with attack against Republic of Georgia in 2008, you know, with everything is on display, I just couldn't understand.

00:07:37.960 So what what what what what else was needed to to to to understand that this man had serious plans?

00:07:46.960 It's his intentions were not limited to becoming the richest.

00:07:49.900 He wanted to take revenge for the loss of defeat, Soviet defeat in the Cold War.

00:07:56.660 And also his philosophy, if you may use this word for for for for his worldview, was based on on the ideas that was so opposite our values.

00:08:08.220 And one of the key elements was violence.

00:08:10.420 Vladimir Putin believes, as his favorite characters of history, Joseph Stalin or Ivan the Terrible, that violence is not just allowed, but it's it's desirable to to to to control your subjects.

00:08:24.820 And also to spread your influence, both domestically and internationally.

00:08:29.960 You are unsparing in the book and very open and honest about U.S.

00:08:36.380 leadership and how they've misjudged Putin from George W.

00:08:39.380 Bush to Barack Obama to Donald Trump to Joe Biden, who came after your book.

00:08:44.880 But you've written enough and said enough publicly about him.

00:08:47.460 I know how you feel. Let's just go back and start there for a bit, because I know with George W.

00:08:52.860 Bush, you feel he backed himself into a corner with that.

00:08:56.580 I looked into his eyes and saw his soul remark in a way that sort of handicapped him from being stronger against Putin.

00:09:04.260 If you wouldn't mind just setting the stage for where Putin was in his leadership then, right, because you talk about how the the the democracy experiment in Russia was was about eight years.

00:09:15.220 It took about eight years from the time the Soviet Union fell to the time they elected a KGB, a former KGB agent.

00:09:21.820 And he started to slowly eradicate all those democratic reforms bit by bit.

00:09:26.000 It didn't take him that long. So that's the young Putin at that time.

00:09:29.300 And and talk about what happened after 9-11 and how George W.

00:09:32.760 Bush really hamstrung the United States from being stronger as he eroded those freedoms that had been budding not so long ago in Russia.

00:09:41.900 Since we have time, so I can afford a little detour in history and I can say that I have pretty amazing record of criticizing six U.S. 0.61

00:09:51.300 presidents. It started with my criticism of Bush 41 and then followed with Bill Clinton.

00:09:57.380 So that's why, you know, if I could present myself as a truly bipartisan or nonpartisan critics of U.S.

00:10:03.240 foreign policy based on facts. So that's why, you know, when some people blame me after publication of my book in the winter's coming for being so anti-Obama,

00:10:12.560 I pointed out that, you know, I had a pretty good record of going after any any president who did, as I believe, something wrong vis-a-vis Russia, a former Soviet Union and this part of the world.

00:10:26.080 And speaking about about this meeting in Slovenia in June that you mentioned,

00:10:32.380 I think that's that was the beginning of Putin's rise as as as as as a leader of Russia who who managed to charm

00:10:42.660 his Western counterparts and he used his KGB knowledge.

00:10:49.580 I think the tricks were quite primitive, but it did work.

00:10:51.800 And we all know that one of the turning points in the conversation between Vladimir Putin and Bush 43 was the story that Putin told him,

00:11:04.160 I believe invented about him being baptized in the Soviet Union and and wearing the cross given by the mother and and how he how he always,

00:11:14.900 you know, had it on his chest and had to hide it because it was not it wouldn't be welcome in KGB.

00:11:21.000 OK, baptized cross in the KGB. OK, give me a break. 0.86

00:11:25.420 So, but it did work. Bush, a devoted Christian, he bought the story and it created a bond and we should give Putin credit.

00:11:35.600 You know, he knew how to work with people. He's he could read psychology.

00:11:41.080 He could read people. That's why he was so successful in winning favors and then even friendship from some of the foreign leaders.

00:11:49.620 And eventually, you know, bringing them to the side, even using more direct means like bribes.

00:11:56.240 And just just to interject before you continue, even when I interviewed Putin and I spent a fair amount of time with him in three separate sit downs.

00:12:03.920 He one of the first things he said to me and he knew that I was the mother of three children was how much his mother meant to him.

00:12:10.840 What a close relationship he had with her. It was an obvious manipulation.

00:12:14.040 Absolutely. Absolutely. He always, you know, tried to play, you know, for strength or weaknesses of the opponent.

00:12:20.560 It's well known that his first meeting with Angela Merkel, knowing that she she did dislike dogs.

00:12:26.260 He brought his dog, you know, to the to the meeting.

00:12:28.240 So this is this is again, he knew how to work with with with individuals that, you know, this KGB school also probably lessons from the streets of Leningrad.

00:12:37.040 You know, some of the subcriminal culture where it was very important for survival to actually read your counterpart, to read your friend or your your enemy.

00:12:46.480 And and and it did work with Bush. And then these women came 9-11. 0.99

00:12:52.400 He was the first foreign leader calling Bush.

00:12:56.340 It's he he knew that that's that was something that would stay in Bush's mind.

00:13:01.940 It doesn't matter what he said, you know, he just offered, you know, condolences and full support.

00:13:06.420 And he knew that he had Bush on his side and anything he did afterwards.

00:13:10.900 I think the Bush had great difficulty until the invasion of of George in 2008, difficulty of of looking at Putin's records.

00:13:21.060 Looking at not only his records, you know, in KGB, you know, this pre president's presidency, but also his record as a president.

00:13:28.500 The Second Chechen War, the hostage crisis in North Austin, the theater in Moscow, when the hostages and terrorists were killed, many hundred fifty roughly were killed by by this north agent.

00:13:44.420 Beslan, the school was burned, also terrorist attack.

00:13:47.400 The school was burned to the ground with three hundred thirty five people being killed.

00:13:52.700 More than half of them, children and the murders of political opponents, including Litvinenko, a former KGB spy who was poisoned by polonium two to ten in London.

00:14:04.680 So everything that could point out at Putin's true colors, Bush ignored because I think the the power of the first contact and also the Putin's willingness to always accommodate Bush because they had many more meetings afterwards.

00:14:20.640 And that's all, you know, helped Putin to neutralize America's opposition, even at the point where they went after Yukos and Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the most successful oil company in Russia, the biggest one.

00:14:32.980 And it was about to merge with one of the largest U.S. corporations to create the mega company that would hopefully, I thought, change the course of Russia and would bring our country into this global trade as as as as a partner, not a spoiler.

00:14:48.740 And Putin stopped it in President Khodorkovsky, a privatized or reprivatized company, gave it to his own buddies and U.S. administration.

00:15:00.200 OK, shrugged their shoulders because they seem to have an attitude of, look, all the stuff that's happening in Russia.

00:15:06.820 That's Russia's problem. We have our own we have our own problems here on the side of the United States. 0.99

00:15:10.940 We're now fighting a war against bin Laden, the Taliban.

00:15:15.040 And, you know, we're not going to be able to focus on their human rights for the time being.

00:15:18.800 But you you make the case, OK, that's one thing, 9-11.

00:15:23.660 But we were because you're a master strategist.

00:15:27.400 That's how you achieved all of these chess titles and victories all your life.

00:15:32.340 We should have been, as you write, quote, pressing our advantage as soon as the Berlin Wall came down.

00:15:38.940 And instead, as soon as it came down, we pressed the brakes.

00:15:42.980 We retreated. And so it wasn't just, oh, no, after 9-11, we were busy.

00:15:47.320 The two previous presidents who you said you criticized, H.W. and Clinton, didn't handle things the way they should have once we had the moral authority after the Berlin Wall fell.

00:15:59.740 Yes. Going back to 1991, because it's relevant, since one of the very important moments in 1991 was Bush's famous speech in Kiev,

00:16:12.360 chicken Kiev speech, a few months before the collapse of the Soviet Union.

00:16:17.320 And in this speech, allegedly penned by Condoleezza Rice, he warned Ukrainians about this pro-independence movement.

00:16:31.740 He warned them not to follow their nationalists because it could lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

00:16:36.420 And then that was a nightmare for Bush and his cabinet, for his Secretary of State, Jim Baker III.

00:16:47.280 So they were terrified by the potential collapse of the Soviet Union because they didn't know how to handle it.

00:16:55.980 It was a chaos and they wanted to avoid it.

00:16:58.200 So let me just give you, because we cut us out of that, knowing that you might reference that.

00:17:03.400 And we have a little soundbite of Bush 41 in what you call, again, the chicken Kiev speech, 1991.

00:17:09.540 Here he is.

00:17:09.940 In Moscow, I outlined our approach.

00:17:15.140 We will support those in the center and the republics who pursue freedom, democracy, and economic liberty.

00:17:24.980 We will determine our support not on the basis of personalities, but on the basis of principles.

00:17:36.200 And we cannot tell you how to reform your society.

00:17:41.060 We will not try to pick winners and losers in political competition between republics or between republics in the center.

00:17:49.520 That is your business.

00:17:50.600 That's not the business of the United States of America.

00:17:56.140 Do not doubt our real commitment, however, to reform.

00:18:00.680 Do not think we can presume to solve your problems for you.

00:18:05.840 So what's he trying to say there, Gary?

00:18:09.020 Oh, it was a clear message, you know, stay with Gorbachev, you know, reform, but don't, you know, don't disintegrate.

00:18:16.600 And it's amazing.

00:18:18.080 I was young.

00:18:19.500 I was 28.

00:18:20.600 In 1991.

00:18:21.900 But I knew that the Soviet Union was doomed.

00:18:24.640 And I was, I have to admit, shocked by this all-powerful American intelligence.

00:18:34.280 Because we heard stories about Pentagon and about CIA.

00:18:36.980 And just, you know, looking just at the wrong things and making predictions that I knew would not materialize.

00:18:46.020 On November 15th, November 15th, five weeks before the collapse of the Soviet Union, Edward Shevardnadze, who was reappointed Soviet foreign minister, visited Washington, D.C.

00:18:57.300 I was also there, just, you know, I was receiving an award.

00:18:59.560 And I saw on TV, this is the, it's a big celebration.

00:19:05.020 Bush and Baker and other members of the cabinet, they received Shevardnadze, and they talked about the new dawn in Soviet-American relations.

00:19:14.520 Again, five weeks before the collapse of the Soviet Union.

00:19:17.860 And why it's important, because now we're seeing the, it's like a repetition of history.

00:19:25.240 We are revisiting it.

00:19:26.280 Because I think one of the problems of this administration, of, of, of all relevant agencies, like Pentagon, CIA, the state, is the same fear that if Ukraine wins the war, and Putin's army is defeated, Crimea is returned back to Ukraine, and Putin's regime collapses.

00:19:46.300 What happens in Russia?

00:19:47.900 So for me, it's like, you know, seeing the, the sequel.

00:19:49.960 And that's why I, I, I want, want to remind our audience about, about 1991, but it's amazing that now we are in 2022, we could have learned something.

00:20:00.560 And as you said, you know, the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War offered America a unique opportunity to rebuild the world, to actually, to offer a new vision.

00:20:12.100 In 1992, America was all powerful.

00:20:15.180 You could have reformed the United Nations.

00:20:18.660 You could have demanded that countries would not be simply paying lip service to democratic procedures, but will, will carry general reforms.

00:20:30.060 Democracy was, was a fashion.

00:20:32.280 Everybody wanted to be democratic, or at least look democratic.

00:20:36.400 So, and then eight years, eight years of, of, of, eight Clinton years, and, and then, you know, al-Qaeda was ready to strike.

00:20:45.860 The attack on America in, in 2001 and 9-11, I think was a result of, of failure of imagination.

00:20:55.060 It's, it's, what America needed is the same vision as Harry Truman administration had in 1946.

00:21:03.000 At that time, it was building institutions to oppose communism.

00:21:06.360 The, the, the, the threat of communism to Europe and the rest of the world.

00:21:10.360 And these institutions did work.

00:21:12.440 They helped America to stop communism and then defeat it.

00:21:16.120 And all presidents, Democrats and Republicans alike, they, they pushed this agenda, relying on the institutions built, built, built by Harry Truman and his, his team.

00:21:25.560 We needed something similar, but Bill Clinton was not Harry Truman, but also Americans had a very different attitude.

00:21:34.040 It's, it's easy to blame the leader, but I think the mood of people who were behind Harry Truman, people who won the World War II, beating Germany and, and Japan, and, and who were willing to make sacrifices.

00:21:46.560 It was very different from the nation that was relieved in 1991, 1992 and thought about, okay, comfortable life.

00:21:55.360 It's not surprising that Francis Fukuyama book, The End of History was a bestseller.

00:21:59.860 I have to admit, I also thought that, you know, we would never deal again with, with the horrors of totalitarian past.

00:22:06.500 Yeah, you're making a good point though, because the, the mood of the country does in large part dictate policy that would explain, if not excuse, Barack Obama's policy towards Putin, which really seemed to be almost on bended knee.

00:22:21.940 Um, and I don't think the American people felt that way, but I do think by the time he took office, we were war weary, uh, you know, we were eight, right?

00:22:29.820 We were seven years into the, the war against Al Qaeda and so on.

00:22:33.540 And, and he seemed to have this, you tell me, but just this utopian view of what he was capable of and how, if he just made nice, nice with guys like Putin, we'd have a kinder, gentler, better world.

00:22:46.080 Yes, I, I think Obama's foreign policy was based on his naive beliefs that the world could be a better place if America retreat, if America, it's not just going back to the trenches because we had, you know, these shifts in US presidencies.

00:23:03.060 You had more aggressive policy of Harry Truman, then Eisenhower, more or less going back to the trenches, then JFK and Johnson, then even Nixon went back to the trenches, uh, uh, trying to, to, to, to, uh, stop the war in Vietnam, actually finishing this, this, this war in, in, in, in Vietnam.

00:23:18.820 So it was always, you know, back and forth, uh, but Obama's decision to, to change dramatically change American foreign policy was based not only on the demand from the public, you're right.

00:23:33.580 There were, there was a mood, so people were tired, uh, of these wars and, uh, they, they didn't understand.

00:23:39.980 So what's, what's, what's it for America in Iraq or, or in Afghanistan, but it's, it was ideological and, and it's, it was, you know, the growing segment of Americans, American society that demanded America's not only retreat, but apology.

00:23:55.220 And I think that's, that led to, to a very dangerous, um, um, phenomena of, of, um, um, as I said, significant segment of American society, believing that America was not a solution, but rather a problem and without America's playing active role, they called world policemen, uh, the world would be a better place.

00:24:16.060 You know, amazingly, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's now when these people are just, you know, laying down these arguments, they simply ignore the fact that, you know, the Obama's retreat and apologies and reset policy with Russia and total, you know, um, rejection of facts on the, on, on the ground, uh, led to the retreat of democracy globally.

00:24:37.100 I don't think it's a mere coincidence that when you look at the freedom house, uh, uh, uh, uh, timeline, uh, that last 16 years, democracy is on retreat.

00:24:48.820 Democracy has been steadily losing ground.

00:24:50.780 And that's exactly the moment where Barack Obama, uh, uh, lay down his vision, uh, of, of the, uh, future world and try to make, uh, friends with all American force.

00:25:02.920 So from Russia to Iran to just, you name it.

00:25:06.220 Um, and it's interesting because you, you, you can't, you know, our viewers and listeners can't confuse our trying to force democracy on lands that clearly had no interest in it.

00:25:18.020 You know, places like Iraq or Afghanistan, I mean, there's some interest, but it's, you know, these are not countries that are going to become beacons of democracy and a country like Russia where they wanted democracy.

00:25:28.620 There, there was a baby democracy.

00:25:31.660 There I go.

00:25:32.300 I have a word before of it, but there was until they elected Putin.

00:25:35.300 And then he started to roll back all the reforms.

00:25:36.860 That's different.

00:25:37.680 Those two things are not the same.

00:25:40.720 Yes, but I, I, I would be a little bit more, you know, uh, um, generous to Iraqis and Afghanis.

00:25:48.060 So we, it's the, whatever we say about America's intervention, Afghanistan, I mean, it helped hundreds of thousands of Afghanis, especially women.

00:25:57.060 It had an effect.

00:25:58.620 And now, by the way, I'm confused when I see some far left groups, you know, that's, that advocated for the, uh, for Americans withdrawal at any cost from Afghanistan.

00:26:07.680 Now they're complaining about the plight of Afghani women, especially girls.

00:26:12.700 Yeah.

00:26:12.880 But it's this, can you just connect these two things together?

00:26:16.340 So, um, and just to clarify what I'm saying, you know, because there's a lot of the folks who don't want us to get involved right now in Ukraine in any more meaningful ways, cite the Bush policies, the years of 43 saying our attempts to spread democracy were disastrous and cost a lot of American blood and treasure.

00:26:32.820 And we, we should learn from our past and not go down that path again.

00:26:36.560 Okay.

00:26:37.420 That's one thing.

00:26:38.320 We also have to learn from the Obama years and from the Trump years, the Obama years on bended knee with roses towards guys like Putin doesn't work.

00:26:45.840 It leads him to be more aggressive in, in the region and not imposing severe consequences on him is more provocative than peaceful.

00:26:54.660 But I'm just trying to start at that first lesson with respect to George W. Bush and the, and his and Condi's and Cheney's attempts to spread democracy throughout parts of the world that seem to have very little interest in it.

00:27:05.620 Go ahead.

00:27:06.760 Yes.

00:27:07.340 No, it's, it's very important point.

00:27:09.120 So now it's, uh, actually I would put Ukraine as a separate case study because yeah, Ukraine is not Iraq.

00:27:16.940 It's not Afghanistan. 0.67

00:27:18.620 Ukrainians had their democracy.

00:27:20.460 And this is something that the audience should understand when they look at Ukraine and Russia, now they can understand the difference, but still, you know, they even can, you know, they many, many, many know even the geography of Ukraine, because you see that the map, uh, Ukrainian map and, and all these cities that are being, that's, that are now, uh, in the center of, of global attention.

00:27:40.680 Um, but many Ukrainians do speak Russian.

00:27:44.920 So, uh, and we hear arguments that, oh, uh, uh, Ukrainians, Russians, the same people, uh, they're two, they're very, very close brothers, sisters, maybe cousins.

00:27:54.920 Yes.

00:27:55.500 And no, um, uh, it's Ukrainian language is very close to Russian, but, um, many Ukrainians are in the East and the South.

00:28:03.000 They speak Russian, you know, uh, the same Russian as, as, as, as Russians, uh, as I, as I do.

00:28:08.100 And, uh, but Ukraine and Russia parted, uh, not just in 1991 with the collapse of the Soviet Union, but the most important moment was in 1994.

00:28:20.880 When Ukrainians had presidential elections and the sitting president, Leonid Kravchuk lost the elections and walked away.

00:28:31.180 So Ukraine had probably the most important, uh, um, element of, of a democracy, a peaceful transit of power.

00:28:40.040 And, and that's, that's made the, the hell of a difference because Russia never had it.

00:28:46.440 Yeltsin didn't want to, to leave power election in 1996 was, yeah, it was free, but not fair.

00:28:52.760 And of course, you know, after Putin's appearance, it was no longer free and fair.

00:28:58.460 So we all knew the result of the elections.

00:29:00.540 That's why I said the difference between, uh, Russian politics and chess is that in chess, we have fixed rules and unpredictable results in Russia, you know, rules change, but results stay the same.

00:29:12.060 Um, it's not, it's not a game that smart man plays.

00:29:15.840 Wait, wait, let me, let me just stand you by there for one second, Gary.

00:29:18.300 Cause I want to, I want to squeeze in, um, something else and then come back to this.

00:29:22.260 Cause this is important how we got here.

00:29:23.800 I mean, I think you can't understand where to go, what the right next move is without understanding how we got here.

00:29:29.600 That's where I want to pick it up in one minute.

00:29:31.520 So Gary, we talked about, um, sort of pre 41, we talked about, uh, well, pre 43, I should say 41 and then Bill Clinton and now 43 and his comments about Putin's soul and so on.

00:29:49.260 And now Obama had a couple of massive things happen during his presidency with respect to this region of the world.

00:29:55.140 2008 was right before he came into office when Putin took Georgia, when he, when he invaded Georgia.

00:30:00.720 And then 2014 is when he invaded Ukraine and got much more aggressive there.

00:30:06.760 And there were some sanctions placed on Putin, uh, that, which I think the Obama defenders would say were nice and severe and, you know, appropriate, but it was, it was a nothing.

00:30:17.720 And you had been predicting all along, listen to me, this is going to result in a more aggressive Putin.

00:30:24.320 He's not done.

00:30:25.420 He doesn't respect responses like this.

00:30:27.860 We've done absolutely nothing.

00:30:29.440 You wait.

00:30:30.520 He's going to do more.

00:30:31.920 Yep.

00:30:33.000 Um, when Putin attacked the Republic of Georgia and technically it was not him.

00:30:38.860 There was his shadow man, Medvedev, who was, uh, sitting there in four years.

00:30:43.200 And by the way, that was also an important, uh, part of Putin's plan.

00:30:48.760 He was not ready to usur power after his first two terms.

00:30:53.320 He could sense that the moment was not right.

00:30:56.320 So he needed someone who could give him his four years break.

00:31:00.180 And for me, the last indication of his plans to stay in power forever was his decision, Putin's decision to stay, uh, as a prime minister.

00:31:09.380 Uh, if he decided, if he wanted to retire, if he wanted to enjoy life and he was already a mega, mega billionaire, I'm sure he could have done that without any, any, any difficulties.

00:31:20.240 Even with all the crimes he committed before, I'm sure he'll find, you know, um, uh, enough understanding in the free world to close eyes for that.

00:31:29.360 And Russia would move into, into his new Medvedev era, liberalization.

00:31:36.040 So it's the, yeah, that's what, what everybody expected.

00:31:38.960 Uh, but he stayed behind Medvedev.

00:31:41.580 Uh, technically by, by Russian, uh, constitution, by, by the law of the land, Medvedev could have fired Putin with the stroke of his pen.

00:31:50.000 But in a mafia-like structures, in dictatorships, it's not about official position, but it's, it's about unofficial grip on power.

00:31:58.940 Technically Stalin was never the head of the state, but he was calling all the shots. 0.78

00:32:03.700 Same with Putin.

00:32:04.340 And to my surprise and horror, Americans and Europeans have been spending years, uh, uh, numerous attempts to court Medvedev and his entourage, trying to sort of build relations and to offer Medvedev some kind of political cloud to, uh, um, uh, make sure that Putin, uh, Putin will, uh, would never come, would never come back.

00:32:30.980 Um, of course it failed.

00:32:32.720 And, uh, and, uh, the aggression against the Republic of Georgia was the first sign that Putin was ready to move.

00:32:39.580 And his speech in Munich was not just a declaration, but it was a plan.

00:32:44.200 And, uh, Obama's first act was, uh, enough for a policy of reset.

00:32:49.460 Yeah.

00:32:50.240 The reset button with Hillary Clinton.

00:32:51.900 We, we have that.

00:32:52.460 Yes, absolutely.

00:32:53.100 That moment.

00:32:54.000 She sat there, um, and, uh, and she gave this button that was supposed to say reset in Russian.

00:33:00.700 And I know you've pointed out, that's not what it said.

00:33:03.440 We, we misspelled it.

00:33:05.400 Yeah.

00:33:05.800 What did it say?

00:33:06.660 In fact.

00:33:07.460 Yeah, it was, it was, uh, um, it was overweight actually.

00:33:12.180 Yes.

00:33:12.440 That's the, yeah, it's the, it was, it was totally opposite.

00:33:15.200 They added, you know, two letters, you know, somebody state department, you know, blew it up.

00:33:19.680 Yeah.

00:33:20.000 Uh, uh, uh, so it was, it was just, you know, it was a doomed, it was a doomed policy.

00:33:25.320 And it started with, with, with a big mistake, you know, in, in, in, in definition.

00:33:30.000 Yeah.

00:33:30.300 And then you had, you had Obama caught on tape saying to Medvedev, I just need more flexibility

00:33:34.960 after the election.

00:33:35.680 That was, that was 2012 already.

00:33:38.200 Yeah.

00:33:38.340 But yeah, it's, it's, it's the, after attack on, on the Republic of Georgia, Americans basically

00:33:43.720 ignored it.

00:33:44.960 Europeans spent months trying to make sure that the blame is split evenly between Russia

00:33:51.720 and Republic of Georgia, trying to find any, any plausible explanation to blame former

00:33:57.420 president of Georgia, Mikhail Tsakrasvili for, for, um, provoking Russia.

00:34:02.600 Cause then we don't have to get involved.

00:34:04.160 We don't have to get involved.

00:34:05.800 Oh yeah.

00:34:06.320 But it's the, again, Tsakrasvili knew that it was imminent.

00:34:09.100 Invasion was imminent.

00:34:10.080 And after the invasion, in August, 2008, I wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal

00:34:14.880 saying Ukraine would be next. 0.87

00:34:16.940 And when people asked me, how did I know?

00:34:18.600 I said, I looked at the map.

00:34:19.560 And, and it was very clear.

00:34:22.500 Putin made, wanted to make sure that, you know, no former Soviet Republic, uh, independent

00:34:27.880 states at, uh, now would join NATO.

00:34:31.560 And Georgia was moving in this direction, westward.

00:34:34.320 He stopped it.

00:34:35.220 And of course, Ukraine was a much bigger target. 0.53

00:34:37.880 And for me, it was just a matter of time.

00:34:40.640 Putin would be looking for, for right moment to attack.

00:34:43.440 And also you could hear that, you know, this growing, uh, um, uh, frustration in the tone

00:34:50.440 of Russian propaganda.

00:34:51.720 They have not attacked Ukraine yet because it's important to remember that since 1991

00:34:55.880 to 2014, all Russian presidents, uh, Yeltsin, Putin, then Medvedev, and then Putin, uh, signed

00:35:04.260 numerous treaties with Ukraine.

00:35:05.660 And Russia made no, not a single demand about Ukrainian territory, about an inch of Ukrainian

00:35:12.120 territory.

00:35:12.500 And all these treaties agreements, uh, have been ratified by several Russian parliaments.

00:35:19.380 So the uniqueness of the Crimea annexation was that it had no diplomatic prelude.

00:35:24.980 Even Adolf Hitler or Saddam Hussein, they tried to pretend that they had claims.

00:35:29.820 They were talking about dancing corridor as Hitler or Saddam Hussein about Kuwait as being,

00:35:35.780 you know, taken away from Iraq by British colonial powers.

00:35:39.220 Putin didn't even bother.

00:35:41.320 Uh, so, and, and I, again, I, I knew that he would, he would act when he thought he could

00:35:45.520 do that.

00:35:46.140 And obviously Obama's policy encouraged him because prior to the Crimea, we had few important

00:35:54.220 moments, uh, uh, that convinced Putin that Obama would not act.

00:35:57.760 One is, let's, you know, again, remind our audience, it's a green revolution in Iran in

00:36:02.880 2009.

00:36:04.840 I know that many Iranians waited for Americans at least to offer moral support.

00:36:09.600 Nothing.

00:36:10.520 Right.

00:36:10.720 They let Iranian movers to, to, to, to destroy it. 0.99

00:36:13.800 And I think the first months, uh, of the revolution, the Iranian government, the Iranian

00:36:19.640 dictatorship was very cautious, ultra cautious because they didn't know what, what would,

00:36:24.620 uh, be American reaction.

00:36:25.980 Don't forget American troops were standing next door in Iraq.

00:36:29.000 So recognizing America would not intervene, they crushed it.

00:36:32.820 Then of course, uh, Arab spring. 0.88

00:36:35.540 And, and, uh, I think it was quite a disastrous America's, uh, response because again, it required

00:36:42.700 policy.

00:36:43.480 It was something has been changing and America was, as we know, leading from behind.

00:36:49.120 And I'm not talking about the tragedy of Benghazi, the, the, the, the, the, again, the turning

00:36:53.620 point from Putin's perspective was Syria.

00:36:56.980 That's where Americans could make all the difference.

00:36:59.900 And I have no doubt.

00:37:01.820 Bashar al-Assad used chemical weapons, uh, uh, from Putin's, uh, having Putin's permission.

00:37:07.540 I think for Putin, it was a test and America failed the test.

00:37:10.780 Obama was ready to strike and then backed off.

00:37:15.640 What about the ousting back, back, you know, in terms of our policy, I mean, we are said

00:37:20.040 to have helped oust the pro Russian Ukrainian leader, uh, Yanukovych, right.

00:37:25.740 In, in what Russia and Putin described as a coup and his defenders, Putin's defenders

00:37:31.660 say, uh, if I have my chronology, right.

00:37:34.700 That's one of the reasons he took Crimea is just, he, he'd had it.

00:37:37.840 He was sick of being pushed around and he was starting to restore the skills of justice.

00:37:43.640 Okay.

00:37:43.920 I'm just giving you the other side.

00:37:45.960 Uh, I, um, look, uh, Ukrainians had their first Maidan, the first protest back in 2004. 0.95

00:37:51.680 Yep.

00:37:52.680 Because I, as I mentioned already, they, uh, elected, uh, a challenger to become a president

00:37:58.220 in 1994.

00:37:58.920 So they ousted, uh, by ballot, not by bullet, by ballot, uh, the first president of Ukraine,

00:38:05.880 Leonard Kravchuk.

00:38:07.000 And they were very sensitive to any attempts to, to, um, stay in power against their will.

00:38:13.180 And they knew that election in 2004 was stolen.

00:38:16.440 And that's why they, they, we saw a protest on Maidan.

00:38:18.820 Uh, it was fairly peaceful because Yanukovych, uh, uh, didn't have the same kind of backing

00:38:25.540 from Russia.

00:38:26.640 Uh, and he agreed, you know, just to, to have a third ballot and it was fair elections and

00:38:32.980 he lost.

00:38:33.860 Uh, by the way, to tell you that Ukraine was a democracy, the same Yanukovych came back

00:38:37.840 five years later because Ukrainians were unhappy with Yushchenko and with his coalition.

00:38:41.680 So the country changed presidents, you know, as the gloves in, in, in, in, in, in a good

00:38:45.740 or bad weather.

00:38:46.320 Uh, it's, and that's, again, that's, that's a democracy.

00:38:48.620 It was a free country.

00:38:49.980 Yes. 1.00

00:38:50.560 Corrupt. 0.99

00:38:51.300 Uh, yeah, it's, it's, you, you, you can't deny.

00:38:54.580 Uh, not, you know, very successful economically.

00:38:57.540 Yes.

00:38:58.100 But it was a free country.

00:38:59.940 That's, and that was a fundamental difference between Ukrainians living in the east of Ukraine,

00:39:04.000 uh, who had the same background as Russians living on the other side of the border.

00:39:08.760 Um, spoke the same language, read probably the same newspapers in the Soviet Union, watch

00:39:13.580 the same movies, but they used to live in a free country and they were very sensitive

00:39:18.580 to any attempts to force them accepting, um, a president, a ruler they didn't like.

00:39:24.820 Um, and also, yeah, the state, it's, uh, and it's 2004.

00:39:30.000 Now you talked about 2014.

00:39:31.940 That was very violent because Yanukovych already had full backing of Putin and he wanted to,

00:39:36.780 to, um, uh, push Ukraine back, uh, from what nation wanted, uh, joining Europe.

00:39:43.560 And he decided to denounce the agreement with European Union and Ukrainians protested.

00:39:48.120 And then he used force, he shot some people and then we had a second Maidan.

00:39:53.660 It was not as peaceful as the first one, no dances.

00:39:56.560 There was a fight.

00:39:57.780 Um, uh, dozens of people actually, probably about 200 were killed.

00:40:02.360 Uh, but Ukrainians won the battle in Kyiv because the nation, uh, didn't, didn't want 1.00

00:40:07.820 Yanukovych to, to turn Ukraine into Russian satellite.

00:40:11.680 I didn't see Americans there.

00:40:13.680 And again, the moment where you hear Putin's arguments, oh, America was behind it.

00:40:17.560 I could see Russian, uh, uh, troops in Syria.

00:40:20.580 I could see Russian bombers, uh, uh, um, destroying, uh, uh, rebel strongholds and

00:40:27.040 carpet bombing Aleppo.

00:40:28.520 Uh, I could see now Russian militants across Africa. 0.50

00:40:31.240 And, uh, it's, it's all prior to latest invasion of Ukraine.

00:40:35.560 I didn't see Americans, uh, um, intervening directly in, in Ukrainian revolution.

00:40:41.220 Whether it was a support, maybe, but it's, again, it's, it's probably insignificant

00:40:47.000 because as someone who was involved in, in pro-democracy movement in Russia, I can tell

00:40:50.960 you, we never had any, any direct or even indirect support from Americans.

00:40:56.280 Yes.

00:40:56.480 Sympathy.

00:40:56.920 Yes.

00:40:57.480 Yes.

00:40:57.780 Invite be being invited to Spassel house, the residence of American ambassador.

00:41:01.660 Yes.

00:41:02.180 Uh, many Russian NGOs, uh, received some grants from American led organizations.

00:41:08.100 Though again, my organization never, never did it.

00:41:10.280 Uh, but again, when you look at the, even amount of these grants, it's, it's just a drop

00:41:16.260 in an ocean compared to the amounts of funds that Putin regime could rally to create some

00:41:21.640 fake organizations that, that, that fought, fought back.

00:41:24.340 And of course, amount of money Putin had been using effectively supporting dictators around

00:41:28.900 the world and buying favors from Western politicians like, uh, a girl control. 0.98

00:41:33.320 So going back to 2013, it's, it's, it's, again, that's, that's for me was a very important

00:41:39.140 moment is it's, uh, Assad had to be austed because Obama said, president of the United

00:41:44.220 States said using chemical weapons, that's the red line.

00:41:47.800 That's the red line.

00:41:48.500 And he stopped, he stopped short.

00:41:50.440 And I knew that's, that's, that's an open invitation to Putin.

00:41:53.980 I remember I was, I think that was a Donald show, the last word.

00:41:57.640 And we had an argument.

00:41:58.660 I said, that's something that would resonate, actually would have an effect beyond Middle

00:42:03.260 East.

00:42:04.620 And I was, I was dismissed.

00:42:06.420 Okay.

00:42:06.680 Crimea was inevitable.

00:42:08.020 And also a year late, a year earlier, you all remember debates, Obama, Romney and Mitt

00:42:14.140 Romney said something that, you know, now it's, it's nobody argues.

00:42:18.720 Russia was our American number one geopolitical fault. 0.97

00:42:23.600 Obama's reaction. 0.99

00:42:24.640 Ha, it's this, you are a dinosaur. 0.63

00:42:26.700 You just, you know, you belong to a, to a political stone age.

00:42:30.900 It's, it's, it's, it's called war. 0.55

00:42:32.660 We live in a different era.

00:42:34.000 Maybe you missed, you know, that's this time.

00:42:36.160 It's a calendar.

00:42:36.760 It's 21st century.

00:42:38.080 Okay.

00:42:38.700 I'm, I still think Obama has to apologize for, for being so wrong.

00:42:44.640 And, and again, that's a message that Putin got.

00:42:48.040 He has been remarkably silent in the course of Ukraine.

00:42:51.480 I mean, he sent out a couple of tweets.

00:42:53.020 That's it.

00:42:53.360 He's been remarkably silent because these are his policies and Angela Merkel's policies

00:42:58.020 and, and Emmanuel Macron, right?

00:43:00.760 To some extent that are, that are coming back to haunt us.

00:43:04.140 Oh yeah.

00:43:04.980 But let's, you know, Macron, you know, let's, I'm very critical of Macron, but the problem

00:43:09.320 with Macron is that he is a French president and with all criticism for Macron, we should

00:43:17.020 remember that his opponents are much worse.

00:43:20.040 When you look at the French presidential elections that in a few days time, so it's, it's, Macron

00:43:25.920 is a leading candidate and next second ballot will be him against Marie Le Pen.

00:43:30.500 But the next three candidates that combining vote of these Marie Le Pen, far left, Melanchon

00:43:37.180 and far, far right, Zemmour, they combined 45, 46%.

00:43:41.580 They're all pro-Putin.

00:43:43.200 So nearly half of the French population supporting openly pro-Putin candidates.

00:43:47.740 So that's why, let's, let's give Macron a little bit of credit because he's not good.

00:43:52.480 He's not resolute, but at least he prevents France of, of joining Putin's camp. 0.53

00:43:58.020 It's, it's, it's about French voters.

00:44:00.400 Yeah.

00:44:00.900 Okay.

00:44:01.140 So, I mean, that's, this is, to me, this is very educational because I do think there's

00:44:05.760 still a belief, especially on, in sort of more liberal America.

00:44:09.300 And maybe even now, you know, the factions are not that clear politically anymore, liberal,

00:44:13.600 conservative, Democrat, Republican, when it comes to this conflict, but that if we just

00:44:17.820 mind our own business, we don't do anything to antagonize Putin, you know, this is their

00:44:22.760 issue.

00:44:23.520 Let's, let's stay out of it and let them fight it out.

00:44:26.240 That that somehow is going to protect America, that we can stay out of it.

00:44:30.520 We can be more isolationist now.

00:44:32.040 You know, the Obama vision was friends.

00:44:35.160 That's not happening.

00:44:36.760 And then I think the Trump vision was more like talk tough, but actually, you know, act

00:44:41.960 tough, but don't talk tough.

00:44:43.460 And maybe that'll get us someplace.

00:44:45.240 Not exactly.

00:44:46.460 And now here we are.

00:44:47.680 And I think what we're learning is nothing's worked against him except for muscle, muscle.

00:44:53.820 He understands, like any bully in the school ground.

00:44:58.000 Yes, absolutely.

00:44:59.040 Absolutely.

00:44:59.620 And, uh, and I think we have now three consecutive presidents, uh, presidencies, uh, Obama, Trump,

00:45:05.820 and now Biden that, um, that had very different, um, perspectives about the America's role in

00:45:14.060 the world, uh, uh, uh, even from Clinton and, and Bush 43, um, because, uh, with, you know,

00:45:22.120 with all the criticism, what we can, we can lay down, uh, uh, uh, for Clinton policies or

00:45:27.580 Bush 43 policies, they were viewed themselves as the leaders of the free world, Obama, Trump.

00:45:33.420 Um, and, uh, until now we'll see what happens with Biden administration, but originally Biden's

00:45:40.140 administration was built to also look for domestic affairs.

00:45:44.100 That's the, that's the trend.

00:45:45.660 Uh, and it's happened first time when there are three consecutive presidencies that wanted 0.95

00:45:50.100 America to be removed from the world stage for different reasons.

00:45:54.560 They were very isolationist.

00:45:57.000 Yeah.

00:45:57.360 And, and of course it, it, it, it, it changed the balance in the world and, and, and emboldened

00:46:03.400 Putin's and other thugs and terrorists and dictators to grab what's America left, um, left, uh, uh,

00:46:11.120 unprotected. 0.98

00:46:11.700 Mm-hmm.

00:46:12.800 Yeah.

00:46:13.020 We're seeing the effects of that, that foreign policy play out in front of our very eyes.

00:46:17.500 All right, stand by, uh, quick break.

00:46:19.300 And then back with Gary Kasparov, whose fascinating life story has given him so much wisdom.

00:46:24.560 And we're lucky to have it here.

00:46:26.280 And by the way, you can watch the show, you guys, if you want to see it visually on our

00:46:29.380 YouTube channel, youtube.com slash Megan Kelly.

00:46:32.460 So please check that out and download the podcast as well.

00:46:37.600 Okay.

00:46:38.040 So Gary, the, uh, just a little bit on the latest in Ukraine where the war has definitely

00:46:42.500 gone a lot better for Ukraine than people could have hoped when it first started.

00:46:46.160 We, I think the conventional wisdom was this will be over quickly, uh, in Putin's favor

00:46:50.960 and it hasn't.

00:46:52.480 And that's not to say that we don't hear about these atrocities coming out of Ukraine. 0.50

00:46:57.300 I mean, yes, it's daily, but this week's news was particularly bad, um, out of Bucha,

00:47:02.860 the town of Bucha, where there are shocking reports this week of bodies littering the streets

00:47:08.460 of, um, the bodies having civilians.

00:47:10.600 This is with hands tied behind their backs, having been shot in the head, in the back

00:47:14.440 of the head.

00:47:15.480 Now Western leaders calling for war crimes, investigations, uh, of course, Russia, the

00:47:20.900 ministry of defense says it's all fake.

00:47:22.600 This is fake video.

00:47:23.540 And so on.

00:47:24.060 And that's what they said in Syria too, uh, when we saw similar atrocities, but American

00:47:29.080 reporters from CNN and other outlets are now personally reporting.

00:47:32.640 They observed mass graves in the town.

00:47:34.700 Uh, the mayor saying up to 300 victims may be buried there.

00:47:37.880 President Zelensky is calling it genocide.

00:47:40.460 President Zelensky again, with an emotional appeal, uh, to the West to pay attention to

00:47:45.380 what we're seeing.

00:47:46.140 This was him speaking to the UN on Tuesday has the voice of a female translator on it.

00:47:50.740 Listen, they killed entire families, adults and children, and they try to burn the bodies.

00:47:57.340 So where is the security that the security council needs to guarantee?

00:48:01.640 It's not there.

00:48:02.660 Ladies and gentlemen, are you ready to close the UN?

00:48:06.220 Do you think that the time of international law is gone?

00:48:09.440 If your answer is no, then you need to act immediately.

00:48:14.460 So here's what they've done, Gary.

00:48:15.940 This, this broke just as we came on, on the air, us just announcing new sanctions, uh,

00:48:20.940 CNN reporting the U S announced new sanctions Wednesday on Russian financial institutions

00:48:25.160 and individuals, including Putin's two adult daughters, as it aims to increase economic

00:48:30.300 pressure on Russia and Putin himself following what happened in Buccia.

00:48:33.740 The U S also announced sanctions on the wife and daughter of Putin's foreign minister,

00:48:38.040 Sergei Lavrov, um, with respect to Putin's daughters, apparently we believe that he's been

00:48:42.760 hiding his assets with them.

00:48:44.580 That's why they are being targeted.

00:48:47.080 I don't know.

00:48:48.160 Does that, does that grab you as anything impressive?

00:48:51.580 Better than nothing.

00:48:52.780 But for me, it tells that there was no, and still there is no strategy in, in confronting

00:48:58.300 Putin, Putin regime.

00:49:00.040 Strategy means, you know, the goal.

00:49:01.340 So going back to Harry S Truman or FDR, uh, or Ronald Reagan, you knew there was a strategy.

00:49:08.840 They laid down the strategy and they tried to, to, to, to accomplish it by using various,

00:49:13.680 various tools at their disposal.

00:49:15.720 Right now, America is still struggling to identify the goal of the war in Ukraine.

00:49:20.900 For me, it should be very clear.

00:49:22.840 We have to do absolutely everything to make Ukraine win and to recover its territory.

00:49:28.520 That means that we have to provide Ukraine with any weapons they need to win the war.

00:49:33.000 We're not doing that.

00:49:34.760 And America is still, you know, stumbling block in this NATO coalition.

00:49:38.660 And we have to declare that all of all sanctions that are being now imposed on Russia will not

00:49:43.940 be lifted before Ukrainian territorial integrity has been fully restored, Crimea included.

00:49:50.280 That's a message that will, I think, make a lot of people in Putin's entourage thinking

00:49:57.140 hard about the future.

00:49:58.820 As of now, we see the measures, tactics.

00:50:03.000 So, uh, sanctions, first package, second package, third package.

00:50:07.340 It also tells us that all stories from the White House and the state, um, that accompanied

00:50:14.540 Biden's, um, summits with Putin.

00:50:17.380 And I say summits because one summit was in person in Geneva last June, but then there

00:50:22.240 were two very lengthy calls on video calls that I would also qualify as summits.

00:50:27.760 And, uh, we were told that these calls and these meetings, the conversations, they, uh,

00:50:33.320 they, um, uh, were used by Biden and his team to warn Putin against invading Ukraine.

00:50:39.820 It seemed to me that Putin didn't listen, uh, or he just had an impression that it was just

00:50:46.160 old talk, hot air, and he attacked.

00:50:49.840 And, uh, while Americans, uh, told the world and Ukrainians that they prepared some hellish 0.98

00:50:56.520 sanctions.

00:50:57.220 It seems to me that, you know, now it's, it's seven, seven, uh, uh, six weeks of war.

00:51:02.460 So they're still, you know, bringing one package after another.

00:51:06.280 And as for, um, uh, military supply to Ukraine, we are way, way behind, uh, um, uh, of, of the

00:51:14.660 schedule that, that, that was, that had to be, um, met to make Ukrainians, uh, uh, uh, ready

00:51:24.080 to repel Russia attacks and now to, to, um, advance.

00:51:28.380 And it's not just, you know, it's Biden administration, it's easy to blame politicians, but we know

00:51:34.480 that, uh, Biden administration followed, uh, the, um, uh, advice from Pentagon and CIA.

00:51:40.960 American intelligence believed that the Kiev would fall in four days, 96 hours.

00:51:45.640 Uh, General Milley.

00:51:46.780 And it hasn't, it still hasn't.

00:51:49.360 Yeah, it hasn't.

00:51:50.000 Yeah.

00:51:50.200 But General Milley, uh, in the beginning, beginning of February testified before, um, before, uh,

00:51:55.920 uh, the house, house committee, uh, it was, it's, was a closed meeting, but now remarks

00:52:00.520 have been publicized.

00:52:02.300 He told, uh, American lawmakers that Ukrainian army would be destroyed in three days.

00:52:08.440 Amazing.

00:52:09.400 Yeah.

00:52:09.740 And now General Milley is telling us that the war would go for, uh, years.

00:52:14.520 By the way, this is the same Pentagon that failed in Afghanistan.

00:52:17.740 There was an, also it's, it's, it's unbelievable failure to, to evaluate the situation on the

00:52:24.580 ground after so many years of being there.

00:52:27.520 So I, I wonder, you know, so for how, for how long people that were so wrong in, in recently,

00:52:33.940 recently, and proved to be incapable of, of analyzing the information from the ground,

00:52:39.440 from this most, you know, um, sensitive, uh, uh, parts of, of, of, um, the global conflicts,

00:52:45.880 uh, they are now, uh, they, they will continue giving advice, uh, to the administration.

00:52:51.460 And also, you know, it's not only just about General Milley, it's, it's about so many experts

00:52:56.080 that were wrong all these years.

00:52:57.840 And now they are criticizing, not only myself, but others who are advocating for more aggressive,

00:53:04.300 uh, policy, uh, um, uh, in Ukraine, support for Ukraine, uh, saying that, you know, we,

00:53:10.320 we're trying to push free wealth into the open conflict with Russia.

00:53:13.720 Again, ignoring the fact that, uh, their policies is, uh, this, um, emboldened Putin to become,

00:53:21.000 uh, more and more aggressive.

00:53:23.060 In your 2015 book, you were saying he, he's going to go back.

00:53:26.200 He's going to invade Ukraine again.

00:53:27.860 He's going, trust me, he's not done.

00:53:30.100 And then you said, my detractors say the answer to my argument is, well, we don't want

00:53:35.000 World War III, which is exactly what we're hearing now, right?

00:53:37.900 Like this, and I talked to the guys on the other side of you on this, on this particular

00:53:42.160 issue, not you personally, but you know, your positions, and that is exactly what they're

00:53:46.360 worried about.

00:53:46.920 And I understand that concern.

00:53:48.060 We don't want, we don't want World War III.

00:53:49.760 No one wants that, but you've been saying for a long time, people use that.

00:53:53.580 And it's a straw man are getting more involved in Ukraine.

00:53:56.840 And you're not talking about a full ground war with American, you know, infantry on the

00:54:01.860 ground in Ukraine, but something more militarily than we're doing.

00:54:05.700 You're saying that that will not lead to World War III.

00:54:08.360 In fact, it will help stave it off.

00:54:12.940 Look, sanctions that are now being in place, same sanctions, maybe half of them eight years

00:54:21.340 ago would have changed the game.

00:54:23.840 Sanctions should be preventive.

00:54:25.980 That's the nature of sanctions.

00:54:27.400 So you respond to some kind of aggression and you do, your response includes sanctions

00:54:33.920 that will put a price tag on any further aggression.

00:54:38.900 Unfortunately, when you look at Putin's aggression, the history of Putin's aggression, all the

00:54:44.440 sanctions, they were reactive and they were very weak.

00:54:48.040 Obama's bragging about American sanctions in 2014, 2015.

00:54:52.060 I think he said, oh, Russian economy is in tatters now.

00:54:55.740 Okay.

00:54:56.520 Give me a break.

00:54:57.400 So Putin was laughing loud.

00:54:59.960 So probably you could hear him laughing in the United States.

00:55:04.100 And my point was fairly simple.

00:55:12.920 Either you have sanctions that could, you know, could make the cost of aggression too high for

00:55:18.940 Putin, or you help Ukraine to rearm, to give them weapons to defend themselves, or you

00:55:26.040 do both.

00:55:26.540 But you will make clear to Putin that you are in the game.

00:55:31.280 And that could have saved us from the disaster now.

00:55:34.800 Now, that was exactly the argument you mentioned.

00:55:36.920 Oh, you want us to be involved directly, it will drag us into World War III.

00:55:42.840 The problem is the wars, if you go back to World War II, for instance, the wars with dictators

00:55:48.320 began not because of the strengths of the free world, but the opposite.

00:55:54.340 The war is a result of the miscalculation of a dictator who believes that he could move

00:56:00.500 far without meeting adequate response.

00:56:06.900 And that's why now we reached a point where we have to pay much higher price.

00:56:11.380 And that's why those in Germany or in Europe who are saying, oh, we don't want to freeze.

00:56:17.120 You know, we can't afford a total embargo on Russian oil and gas exports.

00:56:22.160 Yes, but maybe you should recognize that it's your policy.

00:56:27.580 Two decades, Gerhard Schroeder, then Angela Merkel, that made Germany depend on the Russian gas.

00:56:35.080 And now maybe you have to suffer a little bit.

00:56:38.000 Maybe you have to pay for your mistakes, for your willingness to do business with Putin,

00:56:44.500 for your politicians insisting that having Nord Stream 1, Nord Stream 2 would give German leverage

00:56:52.020 over Putin, not the other way around.

00:56:54.460 And now Ukrainians are paying in blood in their lives for your- 1.00

00:57:00.920 Can I ask you, it's not just Ukrainians, because forgive me, but I think a lot of people are like,

00:57:06.240 well, I don't want to pay more for my energy bill.

00:57:08.080 And it's not my fault that my president struck a bad deal in Germany.

00:57:11.840 And I have heart for the Ukrainians, but I got to worry about my own family, Ukrainians.

00:57:17.040 But it's not just the Ukrainians.

00:57:18.560 This is the point you've been trying to make all along.

00:57:20.820 It's not going to stop there.

00:57:22.980 That's what you've been warning.

00:57:24.040 It's not going to stop.

00:57:26.380 Yes, exactly.

00:57:27.500 This is, it's because it's right now we have, we have a chance to stop Putin because Ukrainians 1.00

00:57:32.440 are willing to make the sacrifices.

00:57:33.900 They have an army that can stop and destroy Putin's war machine, because if Putin, God

00:57:40.260 forbid, wins in Ukraine, he'll move on.

00:57:43.900 And then we come to the point where this is NATO, Article 5.

00:57:48.720 And what's next?

00:57:50.580 Are we going to defend Poland or Lithuania with American soldiers?

00:57:55.060 Now, just, you know, make no mistake.

00:57:57.860 If America follows its obligations by NATO, Article 5, it will have to bring not only the

00:58:04.120 planes and missiles, but boots on the ground.

00:58:08.680 I don't think that it's going to happen.

00:58:11.580 Article 5 is a piece of paper, and I don't believe there's any political will.

00:58:14.980 It's all about, oh, maybe we can give Ukraine enough weapons to survive.

00:58:21.960 And I think that's wrong.

00:58:23.180 It's morally wrong.

00:58:24.120 It's politically wrong.

00:58:25.820 And for those who say, oh, non-fly zone or any aggressive U.S. policy of giving Ukraine

00:58:31.480 advanced weapons like missiles that then hit Russian ships in the Black Sea.

00:58:36.060 By the way, that's one of the biggest military advantage of Russia, because the most powerful

00:58:40.420 missiles being fired from these warships in the Black Sea.

00:58:44.760 Oh, it will bring us into the war.

00:58:46.520 I don't think so.

00:58:47.480 There is a risk of Putin, you know, using WMDs.

00:58:51.940 Yes, there is a risk.

00:58:53.000 The question is, what do we do to minimize the risk?

00:58:56.000 And my answer is exactly the opposite.

00:58:57.980 If we show weakness, he could get emboldened.

00:59:01.060 But it's not only him.

00:59:02.400 It's his generals and admirals that will believe that they can push the button following Putin's

00:59:08.320 order, use tactical nuclear or chemical weapons without being punished instantly for that.

00:59:16.900 And the opposite, you know, would be for America, for data, making it very clear that any use

00:59:23.480 of WMD will be met decisively by NATO.

00:59:26.840 And I bet you, again, I cannot bet my bottom dollar, and I don't want us to come to this point,

00:59:33.400 but my instincts tell me that no Russian admiral, no Russian general will follow Putin's order

00:59:40.320 if he knows that he will be punished, not in five years in Hague, at International Criminal Court,

00:59:47.720 but in five minutes, because a NATO missile will come back.

00:59:51.220 Same with Russian pilots.

00:59:52.580 If there's no fly zone, I don't think Russian pilots are kamikaze.

00:59:57.020 They're not being trained to die for Putin.

00:59:59.800 They're very good in bombing hospitals and other civil objects on the ground.

01:00:06.940 But meeting NATO pilots in air, I doubt very much.

01:00:14.100 So it's about hedging our risks.

01:00:17.420 And my answer is that the strong response now, which could be costly, could be risky,

01:00:24.000 but that's a result of our feculist policies over 15 years since Putin's declaration of

01:00:30.360 his plans back in 2007.

01:00:32.360 So it's time to recognize.

01:00:34.340 We miss this moment now.

01:00:35.640 The price goes up.

01:00:37.340 And if, God forbid, Putin, you know, crushes Ukrainian defense and goes around and attacks

01:00:42.600 NATO country, Lithuania or Poland, then we have two choices.

01:00:45.660 Boots on the ground, and that will pay with the blood of American soldiers, or total capitulation.

01:00:52.440 The end of NATO and total triumph for Putin. 0.70

01:00:56.540 And that's, again, that will resonate not only in Europe.

01:00:59.960 That will resonate in the Middle East, with Iran.

01:01:02.000 And of course, China will immediately look at Taiwan ready to strike.

01:01:07.460 Okay, I want to ask you about whether you think any of the sanctions that we've put in place

01:01:12.480 will lead to a different result.

01:01:13.820 Because I know early in this conflict, you were saying, if we don't respond forcefully,

01:01:18.240 we are going to see China take Taiwan.

01:01:20.160 We are going to see Russia take more territory. 0.88

01:01:22.660 Of course, a lot's happened since then.

01:01:24.240 And there have been some pretty remarkable economic sanctions by, you know, all of the West.

01:01:29.500 So I'm wondering whether you think even those will act as a deterrent right now to Putin

01:01:36.320 in doing anything else, regardless of how Ukraine comes out, because that's a lot of

01:01:40.560 pain that they may not let up on.

01:01:43.640 But before I before you comment on that, I just want to tell our audience as you're speaking,

01:01:46.780 I'm thinking about this.

01:01:47.680 On March 16th, Jillian Tett in the Financial Times, she writes for the Financial Times,

01:01:52.280 she's British, she posted an article, quote, why I should have listened to Gary Kasparov

01:01:55.900 about Putin.

01:01:56.840 And she says you came to dinner at her house in New York a few years ago, and it was,

01:02:00.480 quote, a memorably intense evening.

01:02:02.200 She said, as we dug in to dessert, Kasparov told the assembled group of American policymakers

01:02:06.480 and financiers how Putin was becoming increasingly authoritarian.

01:02:10.360 This is years ago, isolated from the West and as a result, likely to lash out as neighbor

01:02:14.780 at neighbors such as Ukraine in a dangerous way.

01:02:17.680 She writes that the rest of the table, quote, rowdily dismissed his catastrophizing and

01:02:22.320 Kasparov became heated.

01:02:24.840 She said she writes, given Kasparov's acuity in predicting current events, I called him up.

01:02:31.780 I apologized for the way that we didn't listen.

01:02:34.100 And I asked what he thinks might happen next.

01:02:36.720 He believes Putin has already lost this battle in the sense that his key objective of swiftly

01:02:40.940 annexing Ukraine has has failed and said, I don't think a Ukrainian later leader can accept

01:02:45.980 anything less than the return of the land in Crimea.

01:02:48.480 This war will end with a Ukrainian flag on Sevastopol. 0.97

01:02:51.840 But my point is, you've been dismissed by too many with your warnings about what Putin

01:02:57.460 will do next.

01:02:58.360 And here you are warning if he wins, if he's allowed to declare victory, if he's allowed

01:03:03.920 to keep the territories he annexed or more.

01:03:06.900 I mean, God forbid, all of Ukraine. 1.00

01:03:09.880 You're saying now he'll he'll go further.

01:03:12.760 There will be more countries he'll attack like Poland.

01:03:16.100 And and that's why we need to listen to you right now.

01:03:18.560 So has your prediction on that front changed at all, given the economic sanctions that the

01:03:23.900 West has imposed on him?

01:03:24.920 Hopefully, so we see that's the Western response to Putin's aggression is getting stronger and

01:03:31.060 stronger.

01:03:31.880 Again, it's still, you know, leading from behind because we could see more atrocities.

01:03:36.620 And by the way, Bucha is is a first of many.

01:03:39.160 It's a relatively small town.

01:03:41.140 Wait, wait until Mariupol will be liberated.

01:03:43.780 And I don't know what we'll find out there.

01:03:46.060 So Ukrainians are paying massive price in human lives. 1.00

01:03:51.800 We're talking about thousands already.

01:03:53.480 It will be in tens of thousands of lives.

01:03:55.620 And they're still willing to fight.

01:03:57.840 And Putin failed to take over Kiev.

01:04:00.060 He failed to to destroy Ukrainian sovereignty.

01:04:03.820 Volodymyr Zelensky emerged as as a greatest hero of our time.

01:04:07.560 But Putin still has enough military to to to win battles in the East and the South and to

01:04:12.700 cut Ukraine from the sea. 0.98

01:04:13.820 And as you said correctly, declare victory.

01:04:15.760 That's enough for him because regimes like Putin's cannot survive military defeat.

01:04:20.520 That's why it's very important for for America and NATO to declare our goal of making Ukraine 0.60

01:04:29.860 win this war and offering Ukraine any assistance they need and sanctions will not be lifted until

01:04:36.640 Ukrainian territory is being cleared from Russian occupation forces, Crimea and Sevastopol included.

01:04:43.300 So that's, you know, that's the strategy that I believe can lead to the collapse of Putin's

01:04:48.340 regime in Russia.

01:04:49.560 And that's all we need, because as long as Putin stays in power, there will be no peace.

01:04:54.460 I don't want to predict his next move, Lithuania, Poland, maybe Estonia.

01:04:58.700 But he will not offer us any lasting peace because he needs conflict.

01:05:06.660 You know, you just have to listen to Russian propaganda.

01:05:08.620 It's it's it's, you know, it goes back to to to to Nazi time, to Stalin's time. 0.51

01:05:13.780 And it's probably worse because at least in the 30s or 40s, nobody can verify these lies.

01:05:19.440 Now they're lying and they know that we can we can check it.

01:05:23.520 Just, you know, push the button on our device so we can look at the screen and we know that

01:05:27.640 it's all lies.

01:05:28.600 They don't care.

01:05:29.200 So I think as long as this regime continues, it's it's it's push against free will, against

01:05:37.480 our civilization.

01:05:38.580 So we have to recognize it's an existential threat because, as I said, you know, it's it's

01:05:43.740 the world is getting smaller and smaller.

01:05:45.780 So the the battle in Ukraine, which is a front line of freedom today, will resonate in the

01:05:51.340 Middle East, in the Far East, you know, China, Taiwan, everywhere in the world.

01:05:55.700 So we have been seeing the steady advance of forces of darkness, totalitarianism and terrorism

01:06:03.600 over the last 16 years.

01:06:06.340 Ukraine can help us to turn the tide, but we have to help Ukraine.

01:06:10.120 And that's why we should not, you know, do it, you know, step by step.

01:06:13.420 We have to come up with with most powerful thrust.

01:06:17.540 The West can do that.

01:06:18.700 And I think China, by the way, is sitting now on the fence because they saw that while the

01:06:22.900 West is not doing enough for Ukraine to win, but it's enough to to to punish punish Putin

01:06:27.660 and his economy.

01:06:28.680 I don't think China is ready for the same for the same challenge.

01:06:31.840 But again, the outcome of the battle for Ukraine, it's will will define the the outcome of the

01:06:38.420 global battle that will continue for many years between forces of freedom and tyranny.

01:06:42.060 Hmm.

01:06:43.260 There are reports that we're more interested in ending it than winning it, you know, that

01:06:47.680 we just want Ukraine to end it, not to win it, and that the U.S. is pushing for a result that would 0.95

01:06:54.680 look like maybe Putin gets to keep the territories he's already annexed.

01:06:59.660 You know, he keeps Crimea. 0.88

01:07:00.680 He he keeps these territories and then retreats and then he gets to declare victory where we've

01:07:06.620 got to give him the opportunity to save face or he won't stop, is the thinking.

01:07:11.720 And Ukraine can say, OK, we've got the territory we have left. 0.72

01:07:16.140 They didn't take Kiev.

01:07:17.440 Zelensky still in power.

01:07:19.720 And probably they won't be allowed to join the European Union or NATO.

01:07:23.160 Two things that were not they were not guaranteed.

01:07:25.240 We should point out to the audience.

01:07:26.660 There's a lot you have to do in order to join the EU or join NATO.

01:07:30.000 And there are all sorts of requirements that Ukraine, you know, may not necessarily meet

01:07:34.600 and hasn't met so far.

01:07:35.860 So it was never a locked a lock.

01:07:37.980 Anyway, that's what it seems we may be pushing.

01:07:40.940 Like, just give up those territory.

01:07:42.320 Let him have those territories.

01:07:43.600 And we'll everyone will just call it a day.

01:07:45.900 Yes, it's I don't know.

01:07:52.520 It's for a fact, but it looks like there's a powerful factions in this administration that

01:07:58.480 would like to end the war because they see it as a destruction.

01:08:01.700 We talked about U.S. foreign policy changing from Obama to Trump to Biden.

01:08:06.540 And now Biden is just it's at a nexus.

01:08:10.040 He is forced to take much larger role that he wanted.

01:08:13.480 The American's debacle or just retreat stampede from Afghanistan was a result of this ideological

01:08:19.820 oppression.

01:08:20.960 This administration was built to address exclusively domestic affairs.

01:08:25.320 It was built on a belief that, you know, America should do as little as possible outside

01:08:29.400 of the United States in the rest of the world and concentrate on the ills of the American

01:08:35.380 society and push an agenda that's to my taste is too far left.

01:08:40.400 Now, this agenda is dead.

01:08:43.480 It's for many reasons, you know, so you talked about high price of gallon of gas and and of

01:08:51.480 course, inflation and related economic issues.

01:08:55.280 That's, you know, that's because it's the war in Ukraine definitely has an effect.

01:08:59.640 But this administration is still resisting calls to to boost American domestic production.

01:09:04.760 I mean, I understand that we know we have, you know, pressure from from the Green New Deal 1.00

01:09:11.200 activists.

01:09:12.060 But right now we're talking about present.

01:09:14.020 We're talking about, you know, economic hardship in this country and also about, you know, the

01:09:18.560 global crisis.

01:09:21.540 And we know that Putin's regime, among many other dictators, is being funded by this high

01:09:27.280 oil crisis.

01:09:27.840 So that's the extracting more oil from American soil will help directly or indirectly in America,

01:09:35.280 but also will deny Putin some of the some of the benefits of of his oil oil export, which

01:09:42.200 unfortunately is still not not banned.

01:09:44.040 And of course, you know, it's very difficult to talk about other important issues as police

01:09:48.220 brutality when you look at Bucha and Mariupol.

01:09:51.220 So that's why I'm on the impression that Biden is is, you know, always have to make choices.

01:09:57.660 And he's pressured by by forces in his administration to find any solution that could end the war and

01:10:05.840 let them go back to domestic agenda.

01:10:08.040 I think they already missed this moment, frankly speaking.

01:10:11.240 I think that after Bucha, it's impossible to force Ukrainians to accept accept any any deal that 0.98

01:10:17.760 will will look like Putin's victory.

01:10:21.240 So even those who would like to give Putin Putin off ramp, they I think they they are no longer

01:10:28.380 calling the shots.

01:10:29.520 And it seems to me that Biden's remarks about Putin's big war criminal and Putin's not staying

01:10:35.260 in power.

01:10:35.700 For God's sake, he dismantled non-stained power and and then backtracked by administration 0.97

01:10:40.700 and some members of the administration and then him repeating it.

01:10:43.780 I think it's it's it's some kind of a fear.

01:10:46.500 You know, it's an indication that there's a fight inside inside the White House and other

01:10:51.680 agencies about the policy of Russia.

01:10:55.120 And somehow I sense that Joe Biden, who was a creature of the Cold War, he was elected in

01:11:01.820 the Senate half a century ago, I think his heart is in the right place and he's trying to push

01:11:06.820 it in in the right direction.

01:11:08.820 But he's being slowed down by by others.

01:11:13.620 Yeah, he's not in charge, right, because he keeps he makes these statements and the White 0.94

01:11:17.940 House press team rolls them back or the secretary of state rolls them back.

01:11:22.080 And then Biden, when he gets back to the microphone, says, I meant every word.

01:11:25.000 It's like, wait a minute.

01:11:26.160 Who's who is in charge?

01:11:27.860 Who's actually calling the shots here?

01:11:29.620 Yeah.

01:11:29.880 All right.

01:11:30.080 Listen, stand by because I really next.

01:11:32.280 We've got to get into your background.

01:11:33.680 It's so amazing.

01:11:34.620 It's so fascinating.

01:11:35.600 And I've watched so much stuff about your upbringing and your your chess accomplishments.

01:11:40.080 I've got to ask you about man versus machine and all of it.

01:11:42.440 We're going to do that right after this quick break.

01:11:45.160 Gary Kasparov stays with us.

01:11:49.100 Just a bit about Gary.

01:11:50.660 We told you some at the top of the show.

01:11:52.400 Now, 58 years old, born in Baku, Azerbaijan in the Soviet Union in 1963.

01:11:58.760 Now you live in New York City.

01:12:00.120 Uh, but when you were a child, you became the under 18 chess champion of the USSR at at

01:12:06.980 just age 12, 12 and the world under 20 champion at age 17.

01:12:12.780 Then to the surprise of no one at the age of 22, the youngest world chess champion in

01:12:18.700 history world at at age 22, uh, world chess champion in 1985.

01:12:24.660 You defended that title five times.

01:12:27.600 So what, like, what did your parents know that starting you in chess at a very young

01:12:34.500 age was important and could develop you?

01:12:37.200 I mean, I realized it was very much prized in the former Soviet Union as a sign of intellectual

01:12:41.620 power and greatness.

01:12:43.320 And that was one of the reasons that the USSR really loved to have all the chess champions.

01:12:47.800 But is that what made your parents push you into it?

01:12:50.160 Or did you show a natural aptitude right from the beginning or both?

01:12:52.940 You know, it was accidental.

01:12:55.900 So you're right stating that chess in the USSR was a very important ideological tool.

01:13:02.100 Um, it's, um, it was, uh, supported by the state to demonstrate the intellectual superiority

01:13:10.180 of the communist regime or decadent West.

01:13:12.520 So I, of course I benefited from, from this state support, but it started, uh, at one of

01:13:19.900 the winter evenings at home.

01:13:22.140 I was five and a half getting close to six years old and, uh, watched my parents, uh,

01:13:29.020 trying to solve a chess puzzle from a local newspaper because all our newspapers had small

01:13:34.240 chess section.

01:13:35.180 And I was immediately fascinated by this chess, by the pieces.

01:13:40.340 I didn't know chess or what, just wooden pieces.

01:13:43.460 And I watched them moving these pieces and then I learned how to make the moves and, uh,

01:13:48.540 and, uh, to their surprise.

01:13:49.820 So I, I made them just, you know, an offer.

01:13:52.400 So what's it's, I was, uh, um, quite, uh, uh, aggressive in, in, in, in, in, in, in

01:13:59.180 pushing the idea.

01:14:00.000 And so, and then my father immediately recognized that I had a different mindset because all,

01:14:06.220 um, members of my Jewish side, my father's family.

01:14:10.200 So they were all musicians, except my father, he graduated the violin class, but he ended

01:14:15.720 up as being an engineer.

01:14:16.860 That's how he met my mother.

01:14:17.860 I was also an engineer.

01:14:19.180 Um, and, uh, his, uh, last decision in his life, because tragically he died when I was

01:14:24.320 seven.

01:14:24.720 So I'm from, uh, from cancer, uh, just at age 39.

01:14:28.020 So decision that he made, uh, telling my mother that we had to send him to a chess,

01:14:33.040 chess club, not, not a music school.

01:14:36.100 And, um, that's how I, you know, entered the chess, um, network in the Soviet Union at

01:14:41.620 age seven.

01:14:43.060 And, uh, I climbed very, very rapidly on this, on this chess ladder.

01:14:48.240 So by age 10, I was, uh, already one of the strongest juniors in my, um, in my city,

01:14:55.540 Baku, which was the fourth largest city in the Soviet Union, or just all way down south.

01:15:01.400 Um, and as you mentioned, at age 12, I, I was the junior champion under 18.

01:15:07.060 So that's, um, that's, was the best indication of, of, uh, uh, great future, uh, laying ahead

01:15:15.400 of me.

01:15:15.640 So you became a celebrity, uh, within the Soviet Union.

01:15:19.440 I mean, people must've known you on the street, you became a worldwide celebrity, but what

01:15:23.440 was that like for you?

01:15:24.360 Did you know that you were a celebrity, that you were famous, that you had power that few

01:15:29.240 had?

01:15:31.820 Look, uh, chess was very popular in the Soviet Union and, uh, being world champion and, uh,

01:15:37.500 I, uh, became world champion, as you mentioned, uh, in 1985 at age 22, uh, uh, gave me a unique,

01:15:44.080 uh, um, statue, uh, uh, uh, also it was a time of, of a big change in the Soviet Union.

01:15:51.020 Uh, uh, uh, Gorbachev, uh, took over and, uh, he talked about openness and about changes,

01:15:58.500 uh, uh, in, in, in, in Soviet domestic policy, though there were much less than people thought

01:16:05.180 in the free world, but still it's, it was a, like a fresh wind.

01:16:08.880 So after years of, of stagnation on the Brezhnev, um, and his, and his, uh, followers, uh, uh,

01:16:18.140 do a two, two short, uh, short-leafed, uh, uh, heads of the Communist Party, Andropov and

01:16:24.180 Chernenkov.

01:16:25.180 So Gorbachev was very, very different.

01:16:26.440 Um, and, uh, uh, I, uh, had a sense that, uh, my new status.

01:16:35.180 My, the proudest prominence had to be used to help my country to get better.

01:16:40.300 Um, not that I had many ideas about democracy and how we can achieve it in Russia, but I

01:16:46.940 already had a pretty good idea about the rest of the world because my first trip abroad

01:16:51.420 was in 1976 when I was just 13 to France to play a world championship under 16.

01:16:58.340 And then in 1977, I had another trip to France to play just the same event year later.

01:17:03.180 Uh, and, uh, I came back knowing that, you know, there was something wrong in the Soviet 1.00

01:17:09.180 Union because I could immediately see the difference.

01:17:11.300 And I, um, I felt that, you know, we had to, we had to make changes to, um, to turn our country

01:17:21.180 into something more pleasant because I, I mean, I had to play by the rules.

01:17:28.180 I just, I wanted to become world champion, but in the back of my mind, I thought that

01:17:32.180 the moment would come when I could use my, my, um, acquired glory to, in, to help others

01:17:42.180 to rally, uh, uh, uh, for the support of democracy.

01:17:47.180 Little did that Gary Kasparov know that, you know, within 30 years, you would be on, uh,

01:17:54.180 allegedly on an assassination list from the Russian president who, you know, is said to

01:18:00.180 want to target you because you've been so outspoken in pushing for democracy.

01:18:04.180 That's hand critic and critical of him.

01:18:06.180 I mean, that's, it's crazy to think of, you know, it's not something anybody over here

01:18:11.180 would ever worry about with respect to a U S president.

01:18:13.180 Uh, but it's just underscores the difference between how our two countries have chosen to

01:18:17.680 live or are living.

01:18:19.180 Um, one of the things I've heard you talk about in playing the chess, which I thought was very

01:18:23.180 interesting because I don't know anything about chess, but you're fascinating is how much

01:18:27.180 exertion goes on during, especially, you know, well, for you, every match is big, but during

01:18:33.180 the big matches in particular, the number of calories that are burnt, the number of stress

01:18:38.180 that you're under that there've been studies of this.

01:18:41.180 Cause you know, I, I see two guys sitting playing chess.

01:18:44.180 I don't, I don't think of exertion.

01:18:45.180 I think of mental taxation, but I don't think of exertion.

01:18:48.180 Can you talk about that?

01:18:52.180 Yeah, it's, it, it, it seems very innocuous when, as you said, you know, two guys sitting

01:18:56.180 there just, you know, in front of each other playing chess or it could be two girls or just

01:19:01.180 a boy and a girl playing chess.

01:19:03.180 But there's a huge pressure because, uh, the mental pressure, uh, just, you know, somehow

01:19:10.180 affects your body.

01:19:11.180 And, uh, if it's a long match, uh, uh, when I say long match, it's, you play many games.

01:19:17.180 So 12 games, 14 games against the same opponent.

01:19:20.180 When I played Anatoly Carpool, we played 24 games.

01:19:23.180 So that's, uh, that took weeks.

01:19:25.180 So with all the, uh, uh, with the, uh, with the rest days, every second day was a rest day.

01:19:31.180 So, uh, we, you know, we played for two and three months, two or three months.

01:19:36.180 And our first match actually, it was unlimited number of games.

01:19:39.180 We played for nearly five and a half months.

01:19:42.180 Wow.

01:19:43.180 Uh, it's, and it's not just a game.

01:19:45.180 It's the, the several hours you spend on the board.

01:19:48.180 It's about preparation.

01:19:49.180 It's about leaving on this pressure because, you know, you go, uh, just, you know, um,

01:19:54.180 you go back to bed and you're still thinking about, you know, the, the moves you made in

01:19:59.180 the previous game or the moves you will make in the next game.

01:20:02.180 You eat, you still, you know, your mind is still very much, you know, just, it's very

01:20:06.180 tense and it's, it's, you know, the way I played, you know, I just couldn't escape, uh,

01:20:11.180 from, from the images of, of, of chess pieces.

01:20:14.180 And, and I was always working for me, the whole tournament, whole match, uh, 10 games,

01:20:21.180 12 games.

01:20:22.180 So this is two weeks a month.

01:20:25.180 It was always like one event.

01:20:27.180 So that's why, um, um, it was, it was a physical, physical exertion and, um, I burned calories.

01:20:34.180 I lost weight, but, but I did a lot of physical exercise.

01:20:37.180 So the reason I stayed on top for nearly 20 years, it's because I, I, um, even, even in

01:20:44.180 my late thirties, um, so I was better prepared for this physical challenge than my younger

01:20:50.180 opponents.

01:20:51.180 Do men ever play against women?

01:20:53.180 Yeah.

01:20:54.180 We just, it's now we play.

01:20:56.180 So this is most of the games, you know, just, it's won by, by men, but, but Judith Polgar,

01:21:00.180 uh, the strongest.

01:21:01.180 Why is that though?

01:21:02.180 Well, why do you think that is?

01:21:03.180 Cause it's not something that it's not like an obvious thing where, you know, if a man plays

01:21:07.180 a woman in competitive elite tennis, he's going to crush her and we all understand why, but,

01:21:12.180 you know, there's no inherent intellectual benefit to being a man over being a woman.

01:21:17.180 So why, why do you think that is?

01:21:20.180 Uh, it's, yeah, it's look, I'm not, you know, just, you know, here just to, to analyze the,

01:21:25.180 the, the details of, of this, of this, um, uh, outcome.

01:21:29.180 But the, the fact is that, you know, it's this, uh, uh, there was only one female player 0.86

01:21:34.180 that made it to top 10, Judith Polgar.

01:21:36.180 So Hungarian grandmaster, and, um, uh, she stayed there for, for quite a while.

01:21:40.180 So she was probably at the best moment, number eight in the world, seven rate in the world,

01:21:44.180 in the world.

01:21:45.180 And no other female player made it, uh, uh, probably just the Chinese champion, uh, uh, 1.00

01:21:51.180 who you find she made it to probably top 80.

01:21:55.180 Uh, but other female players, they are just between top 100 to 200. 1.00

01:22:01.180 Though I have to say that when we look at the, at the trend, it has been, uh, uh, the gap

01:22:06.180 has been closing because at the, at the days of Bobby Fischer, Bobby Fischer believed that

01:22:10.180 he could beat any female player, uh, by, by, uh, giving the handicap of, of a whole piece.

01:22:16.180 Uh, now no, no serious player would be considering, you know, giving any handicap though.

01:22:22.180 Again, this is, it's the, the male, male players, they just dominate the game.

01:22:26.180 And it's probably, again, it's, it's, it's about traditions.

01:22:30.180 It's about, you know, the roots of the game.

01:22:32.180 So as, as any game, it has been played by, by, by men.

01:22:35.180 And, uh, and, uh, if we continue with the same path, so seeing these, the gap is getting

01:22:40.180 closer and closer.

01:22:41.180 So this, the, we, we, we, we can see that at one point, you know, it's the, it's, it,

01:22:47.180 it will become more competitive than now.

01:22:49.180 Is there ever any chit chat with your opponent?

01:22:51.180 Like, could it, could a romance blossom?

01:22:53.180 You know, I'm just wondering, it seems like all those weeks together, something could happen.

01:22:57.180 Oh, no, there's the, yeah, it's, look, the game, you know, it's, it's, it's the serious

01:23:01.180 game.

01:23:02.180 If we're talking about serious games.

01:23:03.180 So it's the, it's, you don't, you do not communicate with your opponent.

01:23:07.180 So that's, that's, that's a bad taste.

01:23:09.180 Um, uh, and, uh, um, uh, if you play some exhibition matches, yeah, that's another story.

01:23:15.180 But, uh, I mean, you talk, you talk to your opponents, if you wish after the game, and

01:23:21.180 this is often we analyze together.

01:23:23.180 Uh, but the game itself, it's, it's a serious challenge.

01:23:28.180 It's bad.

01:23:29.180 Okay.

01:23:30.180 So this is no place for women to get their MRS degree. 1.00

01:23:32.180 What's that?

01:23:33.180 Megan, I, I, I stopped playing professionals just 17 years ago.

01:23:36.180 Yeah.

01:23:37.180 Though I still do, you know, just, uh, uh, appearances, I play exhibition matches, but

01:23:41.180 I think that's, this is with so many changes in the game of chess.

01:23:44.180 This, you know, uh, this rule of just not communicating to the opponent, you know, it's

01:23:49.180 still stays.

01:23:50.180 Well, I know that I've heard you say.

01:23:52.180 You can't compare today's chess players to the Gary Kasparovs or the Bobby Fishers of

01:23:57.180 the world, because we know so much more about chess today than we used to.

01:24:01.180 And some of what we know came from you, you know, came from people watching you.

01:24:04.180 Yeah.

01:24:05.180 And what do you, what do you mean by that?

01:24:06.180 Explain that.

01:24:07.180 Oh, that's, it's about a knowledge that is just being accumulated.

01:24:11.180 It's just, you know, um, think of, of, of a student, you know, at, uh, a college student

01:24:18.180 who's studying physics, uh, uh, or math.

01:24:21.180 So, um, I mean, he or she knows much more than, than Newton or Einstein, but it's not a

01:24:30.180 result of them being a genius, but it's the fact that there's so much data had been accumulated.

01:24:35.180 And they just, you know, they, they, they know how to apply it.

01:24:38.180 Same with chess.

01:24:39.180 Um, Bobby Fisher played chess 50 plus years ago, and he came up with new ideas that were

01:24:46.180 revolutionary.

01:24:47.180 This, this idea is now just the part of the, of the common knowledge of a 12 year old,

01:24:52.180 uh, international master.

01:24:53.180 Wow.

01:24:54.180 Um, uh, and, and, uh, they, you know, they, they also have computers now.

01:24:58.180 This is one of the biggest shifts in, in, in the game of chess was use of the computers,

01:25:03.180 because now you have machines that can help you to prepare for the game.

01:25:07.180 Of course, it's illegal to use machines during the game, though.

01:25:10.180 That's one of the challenges for modern chess, how to make sure that there's no communication

01:25:14.180 between a player and, and the remote, uh, computer or just a phone.

01:25:18.180 Uh, because if you have now chess app on your, on your, um, phone, it's stronger than the blue.

01:25:26.180 Uh, uh, but machines force top players, actually all professional players to recreate

01:25:32.180 the way they're preparing for the game.

01:25:34.180 Mm.

01:25:35.180 So that's why, you know, you have now young players and I've been working a lot with them.

01:25:39.180 Uh, so Kasparov just foundation has been, uh, founded in this country in America 20 years

01:25:44.180 ago.

01:25:45.180 We'll celebrate our 20th anniversary.

01:25:46.180 Uh, um, next, next, next November.

01:25:49.180 And for the last 17 years, we've been working with talented American kids.

01:25:53.180 So I can proudly say we had 17 grandmasters.

01:25:56.180 Actually it's in the United States that came out of our program.

01:26:00.180 Uh, and, uh, um, and, uh, I could see this quite a dramatic change in their attitude, the

01:26:07.180 way they look at the position to analyze it.

01:26:10.180 It's, I'm not saying it's good or bad, better or worse.

01:26:15.180 It's just different because I used to, uh, you know, to rely on my intuition, just, you

01:26:21.180 know, I tried to always go deep down to understand the, the rationale of certain moves and certain

01:26:27.180 patterns.

01:26:28.180 They, they very much depend on, on, on, on, on, on, on the machine.

01:26:33.180 It's, it's like, you know, following the computer, you know, makes them somehow more, uh, mechanized.

01:26:39.180 Uh, it's, and it's not only about chess.

01:26:41.180 It's just, you know, it's, I think it's, it's widespread.

01:26:43.180 A lot of people, you know, they, they, they can't take the ice away from computer.

01:26:47.180 And that's what I believe it makes the difference between, you know, an average decision maker

01:26:52.180 and great decision maker, because the greatest decision maker knows this is the moment where

01:26:56.180 I have to stop looking at the screen and make a decision, stop collecting data and decide.

01:27:01.180 So how to apply my human intuition.

01:27:03.180 So to add human qualities into the overall process.

01:27:07.180 Hmm.

01:27:08.180 That's fascinating.

01:27:09.180 Cause one of the things that makes you so brilliant and interesting to listen to, and

01:27:13.180 probably the reason that you've gotten so many predictions, right?

01:27:16.180 Is you're, you're not just a chess grandmaster.

01:27:18.180 You're, you're a strategy grandmaster.

01:27:21.180 That's really what a, what an amazing chess player is a master of strategy and being able

01:27:25.180 to see several moves ahead and anticipate the other person's moves.

01:27:29.180 That's, that's what you're an expert in.

01:27:31.180 And so it seems to me that that's a skill you have been able to apply outside of the chess

01:27:37.180 world to great advantage in your life.

01:27:40.180 Uh, yeah.

01:27:42.180 Okay.

01:27:43.180 It's, if you consider, you know, being dismissed for, for 15 plus years as advantage.

01:27:46.180 Yes.

01:27:47.180 Yes.

01:27:48.180 Right.

01:27:49.180 Yes.

01:27:50.180 Yeah.

01:27:51.180 Look, I, I, I.

01:27:52.180 Well, it's not your fault.

01:27:53.180 People haven't listened.

01:27:54.180 You know, look, I, I, I, I, I try to see the big picture.

01:27:58.180 I mean, I, I also know the limitations of my knowledge.

01:28:01.180 So that's, again, the limits of my ignorance.

01:28:03.180 So I'm not very good at micromanagement and I just, you know, I, I stay away from things

01:28:08.180 that I'm not comfortable with to exercise my, my authority and my, I know where my credibility

01:28:14.180 ends, but I'm very good at, and, and looking at the big picture and, and especially geopolitical

01:28:19.180 picture.

01:28:20.180 And, uh, and I've been now, everything I, I, I said now, so I've been saying today.

01:28:25.180 So it's, it's a result of this analysis, not necessarily.

01:28:28.180 I'm right all the time, but I can feel the trends and I can, I can see the patterns.

01:28:34.180 And, uh, and I, you know, I'm, I know that some of the predictions, they, they sound too

01:28:40.180 aggressive, you know, it's like, you know, this very bellicose because the language of,

01:28:44.180 of, of, um, deterrence is, is a rough one.

01:28:47.180 It's a, it's not soft.

01:28:48.180 It's not comfortable.

01:28:49.180 It's not appeasement.

01:28:50.180 It's not let's live in peace and do business.

01:28:53.180 But, you know, it's, it's about us recognizing that there's certain moments in history where

01:28:58.180 it's, it's black and white.

01:29:00.180 I heard it so many times, Mr. Kaspar, if you are a chess player, you don't understand

01:29:04.180 that the life is not about black and white.

01:29:06.180 This is, it's, it's, it's gray.

01:29:08.180 It's a 50 shades of gray.

01:29:09.180 You have to, you know, can you have to accept this fact, your direct approach, you know,

01:29:15.180 good or bad, you know, uh, good and evil.

01:29:17.180 It's that's, that doesn't apply.

01:29:19.180 I agree that in many instances, you know, you have to be, uh, very cautious in, in, in,

01:29:25.180 in offering radical solutions.

01:29:26.180 But we are out right now at a point where it's, it's all black and white.

01:29:30.180 So it's, it's as simple as good and evil.

01:29:33.180 And, and, and, and the Ukrainian war simply demonstrated to us that, you know, we, we,

01:29:38.180 we have, we reached a point for like a climax, the, the, the moment in history where we have

01:29:44.180 to make some big decisions, but I like chess still black and white, but no draw.

01:29:49.180 You cannot.

01:29:50.180 And then this game in a tie.

01:29:51.180 Right.

01:29:52.180 So when you have the, our values, the, the, our belief in, in, in, in freedom, you know,

01:29:57.180 in, in, in, in, in the rights of individuals to, to, to, okay, for life, liberty and pursuit

01:30:02.180 of happiness.

01:30:03.180 And on the other side, you have something totally opposite.

01:30:06.180 Believe in violence, uh, and, and, and, and, and the rights of, of those in power to, to,

01:30:11.180 to subjugate others and to attack others at, at, at, at, at the moment they think they

01:30:16.180 can get away with that.

01:30:17.180 So there's no tie.

01:30:19.180 We cannot end this game.

01:30:20.180 Moral relativism can be dangerous.

01:30:22.180 Absolutely.

01:30:23.180 This is normal.

01:30:24.180 This is, this is, this is, this is not the game where you have, you know, black and white

01:30:27.180 pieces because it's, it's, uh, not about, you know, uh, same, you know, uh, pieces, uh,

01:30:32.180 of different color.

01:30:33.180 It's, it's about set of values that can all look, cannot coexist.

01:30:37.180 Hmm.

01:30:38.180 Okay.

01:30:39.180 So, uh, last question, was it hard to hang it up?

01:30:43.180 Cause I know you did it for so many years.

01:30:46.180 You were the world champion for, I mean, your name is synonymous with chess and you brought it

01:30:50.180 into the mainstream with that match against the IBM computer and all that one.

01:30:54.180 The first one of which he won when noted for the record, and only the second one that went

01:30:58.180 the wrong way.

01:30:59.180 Um, the whole movies have been made about that by the way, but forget that, forget that.

01:31:03.180 Uh, was it hard to hang it up?

01:31:05.180 Because I know you did it for a good purpose, but was it hard?

01:31:08.180 Uh, look, by the way, speaking about the second match was IBM.

01:31:12.180 Yes.

01:31:13.180 I, I, I was really angry and upset by losing it in 1997.

01:31:17.180 And I thought it would be a curse that would haunt me for the rest of my life.

01:31:21.180 Now I believe it was a, it was a blessing because I was the first human, human being who

01:31:26.180 had his job, uh, you know, threatened by machine.

01:31:29.180 So that's, this is an intelligent worker.

01:31:31.180 And, and I could leave, you know, uh, uh, um, was this knowledge and I could, you know,

01:31:37.180 learn a lot and, and became eventually I become a proponent of fuel machine collaboration.

01:31:43.180 So that's, again, that's about, you know, your failures and your ability to learn from

01:31:47.180 the failure.

01:31:48.180 So that's, that's why I, I think now it was more of like a blessing that I was part of this

01:31:52.180 experiment and now I can, I could, uh, um, share my, my unique, uh, um, expertise with,

01:31:59.180 with others.

01:32:00.180 Now speaking about 2005 decision to leave, uh, chess, uh, no, it was not that difficult

01:32:06.180 because what I learned, you know, from my early days, from my late mother was that it's

01:32:12.180 not just about winning.

01:32:13.180 Yeah, of course it was winning, but it's not just winning.

01:32:16.180 It's about making a difference.

01:32:18.180 It's about, you know, making contribution to the game.

01:32:21.180 It's about expanding the horizons.

01:32:23.180 And I knew by, by eight 40 that, you know, I almost exhausted my ability to make the difference.

01:32:29.180 Winning still, I could have done probably for a few more years, but what's the point?

01:32:33.180 So I, I saw an opportunity to apply my, my fame and my expertise, my analytical skills,

01:32:40.180 my energy, uh, for a better cause.

01:32:43.180 And that's, that was my desperate attempts to save Russian democracy, feeble democracy, 1.00

01:32:51.180 just, but save it from, from, from an impending disaster.

01:32:55.180 Because I already saw the, the, the, the rise of darkness.

01:32:59.180 And I had no doubt that, uh, Vladimir Putin would, would become an existential threat, not

01:33:04.180 only for Russian democracy, but for the rest of the world, if given the chance.

01:33:08.180 Well, I'm quite certain that there are many, many Russians who are so grateful to you for

01:33:12.180 using your platform and the way you have.

01:33:14.180 And we're grateful to you for being with us again today.

01:33:17.180 Gary Kasparov, what a pleasure.

01:33:19.180 Thank you so much for being here.

01:33:20.180 Thank you very much for inviting me, Megan.

01:33:22.180 Wow.

01:33:23.180 Fascinating, right?

01:33:24.180 Tomorrow, we're going to dig deep into the Hunter Biden story and the updates in it that

01:33:29.180 the mainstream media has been burying, you know, the laptop and all the evidence on it.

01:33:34.180 Well, there's a lot more to the story that you won't see reported on CNN.

01:33:39.180 Uh, but we're going to get into it when Senator Ron Johnson, who's been sort of running

01:33:43.180 herd on this, joins us to bring us the latest directly.

01:33:46.180 Don't forget to download the Megan Kelly show on Apple, Pandora, Spotify, and Stitcher,

01:33:51.180 wherever you get your podcasts for free.

01:33:53.180 Also go ahead and subscribe to the show at youtube.com slash Megan Kelly.

01:33:57.180 That would help me out.

01:33:58.180 If you would subscribe to both shows, the podcast and the YouTube version.

01:34:02.180 I appreciate it.

01:34:03.180 Thank you so much for your support and we'll see you tomorrow.

01:34:07.180 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show.

01:34:10.180 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:34:16.180 Bye.

01:34:17.180 Bye.

01:34:18.180 Bye.

01:34:19.180 Bye.

The Megyn Kelly Show - April 06, 2022

How America Enabled Putin's Atrocities, and Democracy's Retreat, with Garry Kasparov ｜ Ep. 294

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