The Megyn Kelly Show - How Jared From Subway Was Exposed： A Megyn Kelly Show True Crime Special

00:00:00.420 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.520 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Our hot crime summer week

00:00:16.380 continues today with a fascinating episode. Today we bring you the case of convicted sex

00:00:23.560 offender and pedophile Jared Fogle. You may remember this guy as Jared from Subway.

00:00:30.000 Subway sandwiches. Jared was a popular spokesman for Subway for 15 years. While the world watched

00:00:37.540 Jared talk about his weight loss and his favorite sandwiches on TV, one woman, Rochelle Herman,

00:00:44.080 was working tirelessly behind the scenes to put Jared behind bars. She knew something the rest of

00:00:51.340 us did not. And this is the story of how she learned it and worked to expose him. Rochelle joins us today

00:00:59.300 to walk us through the Jared Fogle case and to share how she helped take down the now disgraced

00:01:05.180 Subway spokesman. Rochelle Herman, so good, good, good to have you here. Thank you so much for being

00:01:11.240 on. You're very welcome. I appreciate the invitation. Thank you. Oh, I'm so awed by what you did,

00:01:18.860 your whole role in this. I've watched the whole series and you are a heroine and just an incredibly

00:01:27.020 courageous, ballsy person. I mean, the, the number of things you did to advance the case against this

00:01:35.380 guy is a, it's a long list and at extraordinary peril to yourself, your family. All right, so we're

00:01:42.700 going to go through it. And I, I knew this story. I was in news, but I didn't know anything about you,

00:01:48.900 Rochelle prior to seeing this. So I'm grateful, um, for this investigation discovery, uh, production

00:01:55.180 and to get to know you. All right. So let's start at the beginning. You're down there in Florida,

00:02:01.000 you're minding your own business, you're building your radio show, you're doing well. And that job

00:02:08.460 as a journalist, as a public person brought you within the orbit of Jared Fogle, the subway guy,

00:02:15.740 for what reason, how he was working with the American heart association for, um, talking with

00:02:23.820 children, motivating them because of childhood obesity. So he was a guest on my show, um, because

00:02:29.520 I always gave time to, you know, organizations such as the American heart association.

00:02:34.920 So you met him and on that first meeting, did he, what did he seem like?

00:02:40.660 Oh, the first time that I met him, um, he was about 20 minutes late, but he thought he seemed

00:02:47.400 very, um, he w he was very nice. He was very low key, um, very pleasant. And he wanted to help

00:02:57.240 children. That's was the whole process for the interview. I think we like to tell ourselves we

00:03:05.660 would be able to tell if we were in the presence of a child predator, just to make ourselves feel

00:03:10.540 better, you know, as moms, as humans. And that's why it's, it is important that before you started to

00:03:17.460 spend more time with him, he seemed quote normal to you. We can't tell like, just ask anybody who's

00:03:23.880 in the Catholic church. You can't tell. No, that's a very important point that you bring

00:03:29.360 up, Megan, is you can't tell. And that's why I worded it the way that I did, because he was

00:03:35.300 very nice, very cordial, polite. And he was really focused on wanting to help children with childhood

00:03:44.380 obesity. So you can't tell who a predator is. Most people have no idea when they're sitting right in

00:03:51.380 front. Although, I mean, in so many instances, they create a job or a situation around them

00:03:59.600 that brings children into their orbit. I mean, it's such a push pull because they do that. And yet

00:04:06.880 we all know so many great educators and coaches who are wonderful, who had never heard a child who

00:04:14.600 make it their mission to help children as a profession, who we don't want to scoop up into that

00:04:19.960 perverted, sick thing. But it's no accident, right? That it's probably no accident that Jared created

00:04:26.260 this charity having to do with children. No, it's no accident at all. And, you know,

00:04:31.260 when we're talking about, you know, across the country, if they're, I think it's about 80% or more

00:04:38.820 where the predator is known, whether it's family related, but they do happen to know that they're

00:04:47.820 familiar with the child. They are, whether they're friends or, as you had mentioned earlier,

00:04:53.420 educators, they could be clergy. I've received a number of messages from people around the world

00:05:00.500 that have been victims. They have fallen victim to being, you know, having sexual abuse as a child

00:05:11.840 through these individuals. And they run the whole gamut of who you think would be safe.

00:05:20.180 I should say up front, the FBI does not want you to be doing this interview. Is that true?

00:05:27.080 Yes, but let me, please let me clarify. The FBI, I was approached recently and they,

00:05:34.140 they asked me to fall back. And the reason why is for my own safety. It's not because I have brought

00:05:40.240 a voice to what is happening. And I'm giving my voice to help anyone who has been subjected,

00:05:48.120 whether it's Jared's victims or otherwise to childhood, sexual abuse, trafficking, whatever.

00:05:55.080 And the, they don't want me to put my life at risk. And apparently I have angered a certain

00:06:01.700 demographic. There's a number of people I have received some emails, messages from individuals,

00:06:09.720 not very many, I would say maybe 2%, very angry with what I did. And, and they're in defense of

00:06:18.320 Jared. Oh my gosh. Yes. It's really sick in my opinion. All right. So we'll get to why and all of

00:06:26.960 that, but it's absurd. Thank you for, I mean, again, putting yourself at risk and coming on to tell the

00:06:32.560 story. It is important. It's not just about Jared, though. We do need to watch him too, because he's

00:06:39.040 getting out of prison in the not too distant future, but there are sadly many, many Jared's

00:06:44.920 out there and Rochelle's become a bit of an expert in how to spot them and how to keep kids safe. So

00:06:50.160 there's a lot baked into your story. All right. So you, that was meeting number one, rather

00:06:54.760 unremarkable. And then tell us about the second time you met him. Uh, well, it was actually shortly

00:07:01.700 after that. Um, I had met him because we did, we were scheduled to do, uh, to do radio first. I did

00:07:09.520 radio and TV as a, as a show host. And we did the radio interview first. And then I met him, um,

00:07:16.800 at a local, um, a local middle school in Sarasota. And it was then that he said something to me when

00:07:26.880 we were alone, um, in the auditorium, we were setting up for the influx of the children to come

00:07:33.300 in and, uh, they were all very excited to meet him. And so we were setting up and my cameraman was

00:07:39.540 across the way preparing the cameras and our mics were hot. Jared didn't know that. And he had leaned

00:07:45.380 over to me. He was very flirtatious, um, and very friendly and was just into general chatting with

00:07:52.700 me. And I asked him if he was excited about meeting the kids. And then he leaned over and

00:07:59.280 he said, just above a whisper, how hot he thought middle school girls were.

00:08:05.440 This is so bizarre. This happened at the beginning of your second meeting. Like he's saying

00:08:12.940 the same day. So it's so confusing, right. That he would write off the top, say something. Do you

00:08:20.340 think it's because he didn't realize how inappropriate that sounded to someone who's normal?

00:08:27.580 I, I can only speculate why he said that to me. Um, but he was very interested in me and maybe he

00:08:37.380 wanted to say something to me to see whether I would be on board or, or, and don't waste his time.

00:08:44.120 But what happens is I kind of shut down inside when someone says something that inappropriate. Um,

00:08:51.840 I just, I have a blank expression and I think that is, you know, my reaction to situations of this

00:09:00.700 nature or similar is that I don't lash out. I'm internalizing everything. And I was thinking to

00:09:08.200 myself, did I really just hear what he said? Was that accurate? And I looked across, I glanced to

00:09:15.620 my cameraman and his mouth hit the floor and I could tell, yes, that's exactly what I heard.

00:09:22.740 Now, most of us, I gotta be honest, would have said, so Jared's a freak. My God,

00:09:28.360 what the hell's up with Jared from subway and moved on. I mean, that's truly what most people

00:09:33.640 would have done. Um, like he's a freak, but like, there's no evidence that he's more than just a

00:09:38.760 weird freak who thinks about these things. Not you. This is what makes you different. Like the people

00:09:43.920 who make a difference on this earth are the people who just go the extra mile, who, who don't just

00:09:48.580 move on. And so while you were thrown, you were, you know, you know, you said you sort of

00:09:54.760 internalize, you started to come up with a plan.

00:09:58.360 Well, I did. And if, if I may, um, what I did, I thought anybody would do. And I was told down the

00:10:08.700 line, um, by one of the agents that I was working with, they told me, Rochelle, what, what you have

00:10:15.560 done, um, in the initial steps and everything that I did, most people would not do. And I, that was

00:10:23.040 really perplexed by that. I was like, what do you mean? Most people wouldn't do that. That is the

00:10:27.800 right thing to do. It's a moral and public obligation. And no, apparently most people

00:10:35.720 wouldn't know. And it's usually the instinct is, Oh my God, get away. Right. Like usually it's like

00:10:42.460 the guys, something's off. Let me get out of here. But you went the other way. You went in

00:10:47.800 and created a relationship with him that would prove very important and is ultimately one of

00:10:54.160 the reasons why he's behind bars for as long as he is. Um, I want to run a clip from, from the show,

00:11:00.980 um, that sort of takes us a little bit into some of that. It's called Jared from Subway,

00:11:07.160 catching a monster. And it talks, it's you talking about your decision-making about what to do next.

00:11:14.080 sought three. I had to play a role with Jared that I was interested in him personally, romantically.

00:11:36.000 this was in essence, a honey trap. I was going to use his flirting with me, interest in me to my

00:11:43.820 advantage. Absolutely. Why would I not? That was my leverage. I think you're incredible.

00:11:51.140 I think you're amazing to me. And everything I can imagine in a woman.

00:11:56.760 And everything I can imagine in a mate. And everything I can imagine in a friend. And everything I can imagine in everything.

00:12:01.260 So you got close to him and this was in the midst of you two getting closer as quote friends,

00:12:09.520 but you were doing it for a reason. I did. And I will tell you, I would lay my life on the line

00:12:16.480 to help protect, especially a child, anyone that, you know, is in need. It's just my natural

00:12:23.600 instinct to dive right in. But it, for what I had to do and what I was subjected to hear,

00:12:31.260 is nothing in comparison to what these children did for.

00:12:36.520 It's so disturbing. We, my producer, Natasha, cut a bunch of clips from the show, 80% of which we're

00:12:44.100 not going to run. It's too dark. It's too disturbing. And we talk about dark things sometimes on this

00:12:49.380 show, too dark, too disturbing. In the context of the film, it's okay. It works and you need it to be

00:12:55.640 in there. In the context of this interview, it would be too much for people to hear these actually just

00:13:00.060 dark, graphic desires of Jared as spoken to you. I mean, you're the reason we have them, but we'll

00:13:05.900 play a couple enough so the audience gets it. But you went through a lot having to hear that.

00:13:10.480 It's like stumbling upon child pornography. Like imagine if you've stumbled upon a magazine

00:13:17.300 of child pornography, just as you're cleaning your house and reading the most vile discussion.

00:13:22.940 And that's what you were forced to endure in these conversations with him.

00:13:28.660 It was even worse than that, Megan. The fact is, is that he was telling me what he was doing,

00:13:35.500 what he did, the children's reactions. And one thing that was not, there's a number of things

00:13:41.680 that were not revealed, addressed in the docuseries. There's only three hours out of five years,

00:13:48.700 24-7 work that I had been able to acquire. So there's more to it, of course. But there's a difference

00:14:01.260 when what you see in a magazine and a story that you read, then when somebody is telling you what

00:14:09.600 they're doing and the reaction. And there, he was, he actually defined how he was grooming

00:14:16.360 the children, which ultimately led to the rewriting of the playbook for profiling pedophiles within the

00:14:24.120 FBI. Right. And the grooming is all over the news, that word these days. And I confess it was looming

00:14:31.780 large in my own mind as I watched the docuseries because you hear some of it in his exchanges with

00:14:39.780 you, what he wants you to do to help get children, you know, in his mind, ready for to visit him.

00:14:46.320 Of course, this would never happen. And you were, of course, working with the FBI, but it is, it was

00:14:51.140 illuminating. And I think we can draw some lessons from it, but I'm getting ahead of myself because I

00:14:55.600 want to lay the foundation first. So you decide to start befriending him. But as you point out,

00:15:01.100 it's more of a honeypot operation, like lure him in. He was obviously attracted to you and get him

00:15:05.800 to start talking, get him to say more about the hot middle schoolers, but you didn't know whether

00:15:10.700 he would. I mean, it's tough to know whether that was a passing comment and he's just a weird guy,

00:15:14.960 or this is an actual pedophile and he's going to actually confess it to me, a public figure.

00:15:21.620 So how confident were you that you could get him to do that?

00:15:25.080 Well, I wasn't very, it wasn't about confidence, to be honest with you. It was just about strategy,

00:15:34.100 what to say, how to say it. But really what he was saying to me wasn't what he wanted to do. He

00:15:40.880 described in such detail what he did and the responses from the children, their reactions,

00:15:47.440 what they would say, how to be able to really wade through and find the right specific child,

00:15:59.780 which was typically from a, you know, from a broken family, possibly have some kind of,

00:16:06.120 you know, mental health issues, depression or, or otherwise. I mean, he wanted the weak to pray on.

00:16:17.440 Hmm. You start just using your dictaphone. Been there, sister. I was that person too,

00:16:25.360 many years ago before we had the iPhone. I was a lawyer back then, but yeah, you started to

00:16:30.780 tape him using a dictaphone and the vast majority of your relationship was over the phone, right? Like

00:16:37.440 where was home base for him? You were in Florida and he was where?

00:16:40.740 Well, his home is in Indianapolis. It was in Indianapolis. Um, so that's his home base and

00:16:49.940 that, but he traveled so much. I mean, majority of the time he was always on the road and not just in

00:16:57.040 the United States, he was abroad, um, in a number of other countries and he would be on the phone with

00:17:03.000 me. And I would be on the other, on the other end of the phone and I could hear the crowds and the

00:17:08.400 excitement. Oh, you're the subway guy. Um, the kids screaming. He said to me once that he was

00:17:14.760 as popular as Michael Jackson in Australia.

00:17:18.820 You know, what's crazy. The docuseries does a good job of showing that he really was.

00:17:25.120 I, I lived it. I was a human on this earth at the time. Everyone knew him. I knew him,

00:17:30.520 but he was hugely popular. It was beyond your normal. Oh, there's that guy from the ad. He became

00:17:39.920 just ubiquitous. He was everywhere. He was subway. He was in every ad. I mean, like, was it 300 ads

00:17:47.340 for subway? Yes, I believe so. He was just an everyday ordinary guy and people really supported

00:17:56.660 him because of his quick rise to stardom and for losing weight and, you know, doing his diet, uh,

00:18:04.260 with specific sandwiches from subway. So it was like, you know, for the average person, for anyone

00:18:11.880 really looking at him, he was just like an all American hero because of how he reached, you know,

00:18:18.340 that level of stardom. And then the, the movie points out he made millions. I mean, he became

00:18:25.880 very rich, very famous, well-traveled, beloved with a lot of access to power players. So all of this

00:18:35.520 happened over the course of some 15 years. And I think that's about the span all based on that one

00:18:42.000 article in his, um, university of Indiana, where he was going to school and lost 245 pounds in a year

00:18:50.060 by eating two subway sandwiches a day. Then they did an article on him. Subway heard about it,

00:18:56.020 made him their spokesperson and boom off to the races. So you're in the midst of this phone

00:19:02.840 relationship with him and he is starting to say incriminating things. So the first time this was

00:19:09.120 something that was unclear to me from watching the series, he made the comment about the middle

00:19:12.720 schoolers. Then you're on the phone with him and you can hear that last clip I played, how it's getting

00:19:16.180 kind of sexy between the two of you, but then, and you were clearly in some of the clips trying to

00:19:21.780 push it to like, so on the kid's subject, cause you were on a mission, how hard was it to extract

00:19:27.920 the admissions that you would ultimately get from him in that, in that phone relationship?

00:19:34.780 It was interesting because it was a phone relationship because I was never allowed

00:19:40.580 during the time that I enlisted with the FBI to meet with him in person. Although I wanted to,

00:19:48.360 because I felt as though that the case could move, you know, much more swiftly and I could gain,

00:19:54.620 you know, deeper information, more hands-on if you will. And he, it, it was to me baffling that

00:20:06.820 somebody would entrust another person with a phone conversation as a relationship and share in

00:20:14.240 detail everything that he did. When I think about it, I'm thinking perhaps he was lonely, didn't have,

00:20:20.840 because he was so busy with his schedule at Subway. He really didn't have time to make friends and he

00:20:27.560 was, he had his friends, but not being all over the world, anyone that he could trust like that. So

00:20:33.580 perhaps it was just something that, a necessity for him.

00:20:38.080 So maybe easier than you expected at first. Now, wait, before you brought in the FBI, I love how you're,

00:20:44.440 you're, you're, you're moving the pieces. But before that you did have one meeting with him

00:20:49.740 and it was scary, right? Can you tell us about that?

00:20:54.020 Yes. Um, he said he was coming into Palm beach and, uh, he was going to be there for a couple of

00:21:01.220 days. He had to do some work with Subway and asked if I would come up and, you know, here I am based

00:21:08.160 out of Sarasota and I really wanted to get this information. So I did, I agreed to, and he told

00:21:15.520 me where he was and that's when I took the drive and I went there and, um, he opened the door,

00:21:22.060 welcomed me in. Um, hi, how are you doing? Um, and then almost immediately became very flirtatious

00:21:29.240 and hands-on and I kept pushing him aside and just trying to continue with the conversation because I

00:21:35.240 had my dictaphone in my handbag and it was recording. So I wanted to get as much information

00:21:41.500 as quickly as possible. So I was very uncomfortable being there. And it wound up in you fleeing,

00:21:49.320 right? Like he, he left the room and you, you fled, which must've been very, you must've been very

00:21:55.000 scared to just kind of jeopardize your operation by just peacing out. I, I was, I will tell you, I,

00:22:02.240 I replay that time over and over in my head. And I was so grateful when he did excuse himself,

00:22:11.500 um, from the room for a few minutes, because that was my opportunity. Other than that, I don't know

00:22:18.180 how I would have gotten away because I don't, I'm not sure he would have let me.

00:22:23.960 And you think back now, think of all he had to lose. What if he had found your dictaphone?

00:22:29.960 What if your purse had spilled?

00:22:35.100 Well, that was definitely top of mind, but I will say I raced to my car. As soon as he,

00:22:41.180 as soon as that door shut, I, I quickly and very quietly exited and raced to my vehicle. And then

00:22:48.920 the entire drive home, uh, which is about three hours, I was crying. I was so upset, um, because of

00:22:57.920 what I just put myself at risk of, but I still needed more information. I was very disappointed

00:23:04.620 that I didn't get anything, um, concrete. It was inaudible, but there had to be another way.

00:23:12.400 And I knew that, that he was interested enough that, that another opportunity would arise.

00:23:17.700 You just told me you had a phone call from your kids and you had to get out of there when he called

00:23:20.880 to say, Hey, where'd you go? So one of the things that's interesting to me, just from a human

00:23:25.040 perspective and watching your story is you talk about how you cried on the way home. And there's

00:23:30.160 another point at which you admit you threw up after one phone call and just, you're very open

00:23:35.940 about how this was actually really, really difficult on you emotionally. And I have to say,

00:23:40.880 Rochelle, I like that. It's, it's almost a more interesting story because you are very vulnerable

00:23:45.760 in that way. You're not this, you know, tough as nails. Like I was going to nail him and I got him.

00:23:51.100 And it was a, yeah, screw him. You were very fragile at times in this thing, but you kept

00:23:59.200 at it. That is such a hopeful story. I think to everyone out there. And even if you are a crier,

00:24:06.420 even if you're emotional, even if it's really hard, if you keep at it, whatever it may be,

00:24:12.780 you could accomplish something hugely important. You, you certainly can. Now I would like to point

00:24:18.880 out, Megan, if you don't mind that this really tore me apart. It was very emotionally draining

00:24:24.880 psychologically. It was, it was just a disaster because of everything that I heard. I, I do not

00:24:32.900 want in my mind to share with other people. And that's why it took me quite a while before I came

00:24:40.580 out to, to, to even share, you know, a portion of what had transpired. Um, but, and I, and I thought

00:24:48.660 after the docuseries was aired, uh, it would make me stronger and it did, but it was a grueling two

00:24:55.240 years piecing this together. And after the airing, um, and I can't, can't go into detail, um, too much,

00:25:03.980 but, um, there was an attack on, on family member of mine. And that is what made me very strong. I'm,

00:25:14.120 I'm different now than I was when, you know, before that happened. And that's only been a couple of

00:25:20.960 months, but it just put everything into perspective for me in the sense that, you know, you're,

00:25:29.100 you have to stand up and, and do what is right because these it's not, it's not something that

00:25:38.560 anybody should stand down. It's something that I believe everyone, you can make a serious difference

00:25:45.840 if you make an effort to stand up and do what's right. Hmm. That's crazy. I didn't realize there

00:25:53.100 was a contingent of Jared defenders out there. How is this even remotely controversial for what you

00:25:59.480 did or what he's been exposed for? I don't know. There, there was a couple that I read. Um,

00:26:06.600 they felt as though my recording him was illegal, which actually there was a gray area. So, and the FBI

00:26:15.080 knew that because that's what I shared with them. It's public broadcasting entity. He knew that I was a

00:26:21.760 known talk show host. He called into the same telephone number, the same studio line. He knew

00:26:27.340 it was the studio number. There was no expectation of privacy. Exactly. I didn't realize that. Wait,

00:26:33.460 these are, these phone calls are on your studio line? The initial ones before I agreed to work

00:26:40.860 with the FBI, before I presented the case to the FBI, I recorded everything within the studio.

00:26:46.340 Yeah. He's a lunatic. I mean, talk about risky. Okay. So you'll get these tapes and he does start

00:26:54.380 saying very inappropriate and incriminating things and you go to the FBI. And I mean, as soon as they

00:27:01.560 hear what you have, they've got four agents in the room with you. It's like, you know, I'm sure that at

00:27:05.980 first they were like some lady from Sarasota is here. She's good. But then it becomes very real,

00:27:10.600 very fast. And they, and you become a confidential informant for the FBI. You start working with them.

00:27:16.640 You start, what was it wearing wires or how would you work with the FBI on the phone calls?

00:27:21.680 Yes. 24 seven. Um, you know, I had, I, there, there is protocol for when you make an outgoing call,

00:27:29.340 if I were to call him and when you receive from, you know, beginning to end things you need to say,

00:27:34.860 just for legalities. And also once I had those tapes, once I had that recording, you, I needed

00:27:43.080 to bring them and do a drop immediately, um, for the integrity of the, the information.

00:27:50.100 It's like something out of a movie. You're going to like the dark parking lot doing the quick drive

00:27:55.600 by, you know, handoff. And they say that's for your own safety. So nobody, if he were watching you,

00:28:01.640 you know, he wouldn't see anything. Well, that's exactly right. That's why they do it

00:28:06.240 in, you know, the darker corners. They'll do it at, you know, under night, um, you know,

00:28:13.620 in alleyways and they do it where they pull up alongside me and it's always the dark, you know,

00:28:20.200 the black suburbans, very dark tint, do the handoff. It, it was really very surreal, very creepy.

00:28:26.680 Um, I wanted to have further conversation with the agents when I made drops at certain times,

00:28:31.980 but they did, they could not, they did not do that. And I found out later on, the reason why

00:28:38.160 was because they, they did not want to chance anyone seeing this transpiring because it would

00:28:44.360 put me at risk. See, as a CI, CIs, you're given aliases and numbers, and that's what you're referred

00:28:52.140 to, not your real name, but I came out when Jared was arrested and I shared because the public has

00:28:58.820 a right to know. And that is exactly why I'm here today. And there's further information that I'd like

00:29:03.920 to share. And I have a lot of things, you know, that I'm going, that I am pursuing, um, because I

00:29:09.860 think that I can make a big difference, but with the help of others, you know, out there, you know,

00:29:16.460 mostly the victims because without their stories, you know, they can really share some insight that

00:29:24.340 we don't have personally, if we haven't gone through it. Well, you added a piece to it that

00:29:29.620 was very important, which was, it's one thing for the FBI to be saying, we found thousands of images

00:29:36.180 of child pornography on his computer and his hard drive. It is another for us to hear it in his own

00:29:43.800 words, his sick perversions. There's just no getting around that. One thing you can

00:29:50.420 compartmentalize a little bit more easily, like, Oh God, who knows what was on there? I guess he's

00:29:54.960 a sick dude, but to hear him again, we won't be playing the most graphic sound bites here

00:30:00.600 is a different story. You just, you know, and you feel very motivated to keep him behind bars

00:30:05.840 forever, ideally, but right now that we're not on track for that. So you're working with the FBI.

00:30:11.640 How long did that period go on? You and the FBI actively, uh, just under five years.

00:30:20.660 So this is a great frustration to us and to you. The audience now is saying five years.

00:30:25.760 What do you mean? He's, he's making these admissions in the docuseries. They, you hear

00:30:32.020 I'm talking about allegedly going to Thailand and what he did to the little children over there

00:30:35.880 who are being sex trafficked. Um, why wouldn't they go arrest him? What isn't that enough to get

00:30:43.560 a search warrant to see if he does have child pornography? Like why? And what was the FBI

00:30:47.860 saying? Well, one would think, um, I was very frustrated because I have given thousands of

00:30:56.400 recordings, um, over the years and they were so compelling. I even made phone calls to the office

00:31:03.440 out of Tampa middle of the night. Um, you know, in trying to track down my handlers, my lead agent,

00:31:11.080 uh, to let them know that Jared is boarding a plane. He's going, uh, he's, you know, it's going to this

00:31:17.680 city. And he told me he's, you know, this one particular incident, there was a little girl he was

00:31:23.560 going to see. And he alluded to the fact that the parents knew what he was going to do. So there's more

00:31:30.620 to the story than just that, but that is what he had told me. And I had that all on tape and I

00:31:37.520 couldn't understand, um, why it was so difficult, you know, working together with other law enforcement

00:31:45.340 agencies to follow him, you know, when he gets, when he gets off the air, the airplane and just

00:31:51.380 track them to where he's going to track his cell phone, something. And I, I still, I don't understand

00:31:57.760 all the inner workings. They have their reasons, but, um, I found that to be very frustrating

00:32:02.940 because I didn't know what else to do.

00:32:08.860 We're going to play two sound bites here of your discussions with him. And this is where it took

00:32:14.940 just a particularly dark turn for, for poor you, because you're a mom and you had two young kids

00:32:23.100 who are, I think nine and 10. I mean, it was a period of year, so they were aging, but they were

00:32:28.580 around there. And Jared knew that. And he started to turn the discussion to your own children, which

00:32:36.100 is something very different than the abstract idea, which is awful enough. Um, so we've got a bit of

00:32:41.960 that from the piece we'll play sought for first. And this is a viewer warning. This is disturbing,

00:32:48.600 um, and not appropriate for children. Will you do anything I tell you to do? Yes, I will. You

00:32:57.460 promise? Yes. Will you let me see your kids naked? Oh my God, Rochelle, that is stomach turning.

00:33:08.240 It really is. How did you maintain your composure? For all those years prior, uh, he really did not

00:33:14.740 bring my children to conversation at all. So now his sights were set on my kids.

00:33:23.860 How did you manage through that?

00:33:29.000 Actually, when that initially happened and he started to zone in on my kids and ask questions,

00:33:34.780 that's when I spoke with my lead agents, um, Billings, special agent Billings. And she,

00:33:42.160 I, I, I was going to quit and just walk away. And through conversations,

00:33:48.800 they did not have anybody else to get in. They, they, they had tried for quite a while,

00:33:55.060 um, through me to try to introduce an agent to take my place ultimately, but he would never bite.

00:34:01.320 He was just, he was just very, um, stuck on wanting to talk with me.

00:34:07.360 You were it for the FBI, for everyone. Here's a second soundbite, same vein and same warnings.

00:34:17.520 Stop five.

00:34:18.260 I want you to describe your kids for me.

00:34:20.980 My kids. Oh gosh. Blue eyes, blonde hair.

00:34:27.820 That's a girl I've got.

00:34:28.820 So what's your kids? Do you think I'll like better seeing naked, your son or your daughter?

00:34:33.880 Um, I don't know. You seem to like both girls and boys.

00:34:38.760 Well, so what would you think I'll look like better?

00:34:41.960 I don't know. I really don't know.

00:34:45.720 Oh my God.

00:34:48.320 That was very difficult for me to hear.

00:34:51.220 Of course. My God. Your strength is superhuman.

00:34:55.720 The FBI, they just weren't doing it.

00:34:58.820 And you ultimately did something extraordinary.

00:35:02.800 Again, another extraordinary act.

00:35:04.480 You went to, was it the local DA to try to get somebody to do something?

00:35:10.160 I went to local law enforcement, Sarasota police department.

00:35:14.160 Uh, I, I had my own talk shows, TV, radio, great following.

00:35:19.140 Um, did it not locally, just not only locally, but nationally as well on a number of different venues.

00:35:25.380 And I was going to, and played it out in my mind many times because I felt that the, that they, there was so much information that I had already shared.

00:35:37.940 I know what he's doing.

00:35:39.080 They know what he's doing.

00:35:40.920 Um, and every minute makes a difference.

00:35:44.540 That's a, that's a potential child being violated, being stopped, um, you know, being harmed.

00:35:50.800 And that is something that I wasn't going to stand down any longer.

00:35:55.340 So I went to Sarasota police department and essentially turned in the FBI.

00:36:02.100 And of course you can only imagine the looks that I got and they were questioning, what did you just say?

00:36:09.960 What are you doing?

00:36:11.060 And you're reporting why?

00:36:12.700 And I said, because, you know, it's, I felt as though that they were putting the public at risk for, um, not moving quicker in the case, but I am not, it was great teamwork.

00:36:27.380 And I, I applaud and commend all of the law enforcement worldwide that really participated in this, um, interfold.

00:36:37.140 And because there were so many different countries that were involved, um, but they wouldn't allow me to leave.

00:36:44.280 I went on my lunch break and, um, I was there for many hours and they had tied in.

00:36:50.940 Um, there was probably about 30 or 40, um, law enforcement, um, and then all of a sudden the FBI agents walk in the door and I felt as though I was almost being, you know, quashed not to say anything through intimidation, but I, I stood my ground and it took them quite a while before they convinced me not to go public.

00:37:14.840 They did say that I would be impeding, um, an ongoing investigation and there would be repercussions legally against me.

00:37:24.180 And, uh, and I still did, it didn't, I didn't care.

00:37:29.440 And they saw that.

00:37:30.420 And it finally took, uh, one of the detectives from Sarasota police department that pulled me aside.

00:37:37.100 And only by what he shared with me, did I agree not to go public because having my own, um, airtime, I wanted to lock the door and then broadcast what, what I had been doing, what I had discovered and just warn the public myself.

00:37:53.080 Um, right.

00:37:55.720 And, and he told me this, this, um, detective, he said that what they discovered, cause they couldn't tell me all the details and they, and I understand that.

00:38:04.560 But they said, he said to me, what they discovered was that Jared was, but a pea in a pot, regardless of how big he was, um, so well known that he was leading them to even larger individuals, political figures, celebrities.

00:38:24.500 Um, and that a case like this typically takes at least 10 years, if not longer to get the concrete information.

00:38:33.320 Um, and so it would, it will happen.

00:38:37.240 He will be taken, taken down, but it's going to take that time and process.

00:38:42.120 But in the meanwhile, when that does happen, he told me that I would see these others fall, uh, from grace really, and, um, be exposed for what was really going on.

00:38:53.680 And that leads me to believe Jared pled guilty.

00:38:59.260 I was so grateful that the children and even myself didn't have to go to trial and put anybody else at risk of having to go through that whole ordeal because that's traumatizing again to these children.

00:39:11.640 Um, so I just, I just, I just wonder, you know, I don't know whatever has been redacted from the reports, um, what he did to steer them in this direction, or if it was only through their own investigative, um, resources of how they found out.

00:39:30.880 But, you know, now we see Epstein, you know, uh, he had fallen shortly thereafter, really, in the grand scheme of things, it was only a few years, but, you know, and I can't see why he would not have at some point engaged with Epstein.

00:39:49.500 Because he, he, he liked going to Boca Raton, he liked going to Palm Beach and spending time there.

00:39:56.700 And, you know, Palm Beach is where, where Epstein lived.

00:40:01.500 And that's where his playground was for the most part, aside from his island, of course, but, um, so I think there's a lot more to it.

00:40:10.500 And I think a lot more is going to come out.

00:40:14.040 Wow.

00:40:14.780 Well, I hadn't even considered the Epstein connection because I was going to say there was no domino cascade of celebrities and public figures falling for this kind of thing after Jared Epstein would be a big one that if there were, if there were a connection there, that would be a very significant one.

00:40:30.780 And the, how long in advance of Jared's arrest did that conversation with you happened where they said all that and urged you not to go on your show and tell?

00:40:43.100 For about three, four years, maybe.

00:40:46.080 Could have been longer.

00:40:47.300 But, but I had, I had been working with them, I think for about three years.

00:40:52.720 And, and that's when I went to Sarasota police to turn them in, to hopefully, you know.

00:41:00.780 Ramp up the operation, uh, and put new, you know, maybe some new eyes on the case.

00:41:08.840 And so it, it was with a few years after, after that, because I had a couple more years in and, you know, that was, that, that's just how all that transpired.

00:41:22.920 But, so you are, you're going through this, there's, it's very difficult for you.

00:41:28.740 Now, were you a single mom?

00:41:29.960 I couldn't tell whether you had a divorce or.

00:41:31.620 Yes.

00:41:32.500 Okay.

00:41:32.700 Yeah, we, we were, we were separated obviously first and then, um, ultimately divorced.

00:41:39.360 So I was a single mom raising my children, but we had 50, 50 custody.

00:41:44.560 Um, and it's interesting, my, um, my ex-husband, my children's father, uh, was retired police department from Sarasota.

00:41:52.660 Um, and aside from our differences that anyone would have going through a divorce and being divorcees, um, most people don't get along right away.

00:42:03.920 That takes years to develop, but he removed that aspect of our personal life and he was all hands in all hands on deck, helping me watch the children, taking them last minute, doing whatever he could to provide me the time and the understanding.

00:42:24.240 Cause I would be able to talk to him during these times of duress because I told him what I was doing.

00:42:30.020 I would never do that without telling their dad because he had a right to know.

00:42:35.160 And it was important that he did know, but I, I have to give him a lot of credit because he did what I think is very difficult for most people is to put your differences aside and move forward because he knew what I was doing was very important and risky.

00:42:52.600 Your, your, your, your son, uh, Thomas is featured in the docuseries and appears very proud of what you did.

00:43:01.080 We pulled just one soundbite, but there are a few that we could have chosen from, um, it's SOT 8.

00:43:06.660 I'm very proud of my mother.

00:43:08.760 She did do something heroic and she, it was selfless because she lost a lot in the process.

00:43:14.000 Your daughter does not appear and there's speculation in the wake of this docuseries that the two of you are estranged, perhaps because of these phone calls, perhaps she held them against you or something else against you.

00:43:29.600 What's the truth on that?

00:43:31.520 The truth on that is she was not, um, she's a very private person.

00:43:37.320 Um, she was all for us doing the docuseries.

00:43:42.780 She thinks it's important, but she just, you know, personally, she doesn't like, like, you know, all the attention.

00:43:50.000 She doesn't like that.

00:43:50.900 She does it.

00:43:51.440 She's very private and tries to keep to herself.

00:43:54.020 Um, but as far as being a strange from her, of course, you know, there was a certain period of time that she was upset with me.

00:44:03.220 She was angry with, um, certain situations because of what she would, you know, perhaps read.

00:44:12.780 And she thinks that I put the, put them at risk, which I never did.

00:44:16.900 And I never would.

00:44:18.600 Um, I, I, I have been able to just share with her exactly through facts, um, factual information of exactly how everything transpired.

00:44:31.520 And she sees that now, but, um, what she was most angry with me about was that she lost her mom for all those years.

00:44:40.520 She didn't have the mom connection throughout her childhood for the most part that other kids did, because I always had to be away.

00:44:50.400 I could never tell her why.

00:44:51.720 And still to this day, I think that there's some, you know, animosity there because I didn't have to do that with the kids is what she had said when she was younger.

00:45:04.240 She's an adult now, so she thinks differently, but, um, but I, she, her, her whole idea was you didn't have to do that.

00:45:12.620 You needed to spend more time with us.

00:45:14.820 And I get that, but I had, it was a, it was a lose-lose situation in a sense, because I lost my ability to be the mom that I always wanted to be.

00:45:27.660 And my children lost their mom.

00:45:28.700 This was that time consuming?

00:45:29.520 Like people out there might be thinking, well, you just had some phone calls every once in a while, a couple of tape drops.

00:45:34.520 Like what, what was so time consuming about it?

00:45:37.300 Well, I was a single mom.

00:45:38.920 I had to make a living.

00:45:40.080 I did my own shows.

00:45:41.380 Um, I booked, I did everything.

00:45:43.840 So it's, you know, that alone, and especially even back then, it's really a two income family.

00:45:50.320 So that took a lot.

00:45:51.620 I did not get compensated during my time with the FBI for all those years.

00:45:57.140 And I would have to leave my house, hire sitters.

00:46:00.120 Um, if my, you know, if their dad wasn't available.

00:46:03.440 Um, and it was just, it was so time consuming because he would call during the day,

00:46:09.240 but a lot of the calls would come in the evening, being around the world, he'd be in different

00:46:13.820 time zones as well.

00:46:15.120 And they would be relentless.

00:46:16.980 He would call continuously.

00:46:18.380 And I had to go through the taping.

00:46:20.260 And then as soon as they were done, go meet up with an agent and make the drop.

00:46:24.460 And I really was not getting the sleep that I needed.

00:46:29.260 And it was just very draining on me.

00:46:32.860 Um, there's a lot of hours.

00:46:34.600 Would you say there were over all those years?

00:46:37.820 How many phone calls would you say you had taped?

00:46:41.360 Oh, well, if you average it out at the eight to 10 per day for all those years,

00:46:50.800 barely only towards the very end, did they become less and less because he kept wanting

00:46:57.400 to see me in person and they would not allow that.

00:47:00.600 And that wasn't he married with kids by that time?

00:47:03.960 What at the end there, Rochelle, what didn't he get married and have, uh, have children of

00:47:07.740 his own?

00:47:08.060 Like at the, at the end, I believe so, but I don't think that I was working with the FBI

00:47:12.860 at that point.

00:47:14.220 Okay.

00:47:14.660 So there was a period where your phone calls ended and then there was a gap and then the

00:47:19.080 arrest.

00:47:19.460 That's correct.

00:47:21.300 Okay.

00:47:21.680 Cause the weird, weirdly the arrest did not happen as a direct result.

00:47:25.020 As I understand it, of your tapings, though, they would become relevant at trial.

00:47:29.460 He had a guy running his children's foundation who was also a disgusting pervert as it would

00:47:37.000 turn out.

00:47:37.840 And that guy, his name was Russell.

00:47:41.240 What's his, what's his last name?

00:47:42.460 Russell Taylor.

00:47:43.560 Russell Taylor.

00:47:44.420 Uh, that guy, Russell Taylor would be the reason Jared would ultimately get caught because

00:47:48.740 he, um, had, without getting too graphic, but he and his wife were into some very disturbing

00:47:55.820 things.

00:47:56.380 And there was a, an email that got circulated of his wife and some sort of very twisted

00:48:01.220 sex act.

00:48:02.440 And the act itself is unlawful.

00:48:07.320 And they got wind of the fact that Russell was emailing it, emailing the pictures is not

00:48:13.440 unlawful, but they just decided it's time to investigate Russell and his family situation.

00:48:18.540 What's going on there.

00:48:19.540 And that led them to Russell's computer, which had all these sexual images of children on

00:48:28.400 it, including his own stepdaughters, who we now know whose images we believe were funneled

00:48:36.900 to Jared Fogel and the young women who are very young moms, at least one of them is a mom

00:48:44.060 herself now spoke at length in the documentary.

00:48:49.540 They were very put together.

00:48:52.300 I have to say for girls who have been there, this guy was taping them in their showers,

00:48:55.860 in their beds.

00:48:56.780 It's their stepfather, put cameras all over their home.

00:49:00.080 This sick, perverted, and then using the tapes to, I don't know if he sold them.

00:49:07.240 He, he certainly provided them to Jared for people to get off on the images of his own

00:49:11.100 stepdaughters who, who had no idea he was this way, who thought that he loved them.

00:49:16.020 Here's, um, a little bit from Christian and Hannah, the two daughters who spoke out in

00:49:21.740 the documentary.

00:49:23.640 After Russell was arrested, we had to talk to the FBI.

00:49:27.440 I was in a very traumatic, frozen state.

00:49:34.760 I couldn't even believe what was happening to me.

00:49:38.840 They sat me down and told me that there were cameras all throughout the house.

00:49:43.940 They were everywhere.

00:49:47.480 Russell, he was watching us in the shower, watching us get dressed in our rooms, watching

00:49:53.060 us masturbate.

00:49:55.660 We were being watched 24 seven.

00:49:58.900 My God.

00:49:59.760 So this leads the police to Jared because they saw Russell had it.

00:50:07.220 Russell had given some to Jared and then they went to Jared.

00:50:11.000 They got a search warrant for Jared's computers and then they had him.

00:50:15.700 I mean, they had all the images.

00:50:17.480 God only knows what was on his computers.

00:50:20.760 And by that point, Rochelle, he, I, he was definitely married and they had children.

00:50:26.560 He had, it's just terrifying to think that a pedophile can not only molest children, he

00:50:30.540 can make children of his own and God knows what their future would have been had he not

00:50:35.520 been caught.

00:50:37.060 Um, it was a huge deal that we have video of the raid when the police got to his house

00:50:42.860 and it hit the news like that, that Jared Fogle, the subway guy has been arrested.

00:50:50.420 His, his home has been raided.

00:50:52.160 Here's the video back at that time of him coming out of the house.

00:50:55.540 Um, and he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's,

00:50:56.560 he's, he's, he's, he's a Jahrenhthing.

00:50:57.880 And no one could believe it.

00:50:58.460 No one could believe that this guy who'd been in our living rooms for 15 years as this sweet

00:51:03.540 guy next door was a sick child molester.

00:51:07.900 So now the day that that happened, you were no longer working with the FBI, but you are

00:51:12.320 the person who's put all these.

00:51:13.880 What was that like for you?

00:51:16.500 Oh, it was very surreal.

00:51:19.700 Um, I, I thought that I would have received a phone call to, you know, prep me.

00:51:26.320 and let me know. I knew while I was working undercover, that was always the plan. If

00:51:33.400 they had decided that this is the time they were going to arrest him, the plan of action was they

00:51:40.580 were going to send agents to my children's school. The children had to be prepped if this day were

00:51:46.220 to happen, you know, that, and the schools, all the, you know, the teachers and the superintendent,

00:51:53.420 they all needed to be made aware of this over the years. And they had switched schools from time to

00:51:59.480 time as they were growing up. And, you know, so they were, my kids knew that there was something

00:52:09.020 that was happening. They, my son had revealed to me that they, they knew that I was working with

00:52:16.140 the FBI. There was a bad man I was helping them get, but he said to me, he never knew who this

00:52:22.100 person was. And he was actually saying, but he and my daughter, because they'd have conversations

00:52:27.940 and it was worse that they didn't know who it was because they didn't trust anyone.

00:52:34.540 They didn't know, honestly, could it be someone that they know, a friend, a family member,

00:52:41.120 somebody at school. I didn't know all these years that that was what they were subjected to.

00:52:47.600 Um, so that really, you know, that, that is difficult and, um, you know, really

00:52:54.320 stomach churning to me to hear what they had to go through.

00:52:59.660 Cause everyone's the boogeyman. Everyone's the boogeyman when you don't know, but of course you

00:53:03.920 weren't at liberty to share any of that. Uh, yeah. So he had two children at the time he was arrested.

00:53:09.420 They were three and five, a boy and a girl. And his wife left him immediately. She had no idea.

00:53:17.720 That was pretty clear from her public statements. She was very angry at him and devastated, devastated.

00:53:25.980 I cannot imagine finding out this person who you love and are building a family with

00:53:29.760 is a monster. I mean, a true monster. It's just this poor woman who must've had to go through years

00:53:35.700 of therapy and make sure her children were okay. So at the trial, well, there wasn't a trial,

00:53:41.680 but he got arrested and he winds up pleading guilty. But then we get to the sentencing

00:53:45.800 and the judge, though, the judge did not give Jared the time you or I would have liked,

00:53:52.440 which could have been up to 50 years. The judge did saddle him with more than the prosecution even

00:53:59.720 recommended. And my understanding of Rochelle is that that was in part due to your tapes and hearing

00:54:07.020 the years of his admissions on them. Yes, that that's exactly what I had been told. And that

00:54:16.220 really gave me, uh, you know, a gratifying feeling that those were not wasted years. It was very

00:54:23.440 disappointing when I separated because I wasn't able to get an agent and he just wouldn't, he wouldn't

00:54:29.120 bite no matter what I said. And believe me, you know, we put forth great effort trying to get

00:54:35.280 somebody else to take my place because it did ultimately take a toll on me, but I was willing

00:54:39.860 to move forward. But it just, you know, I couldn't move forward anymore. Um, after he started engaging

00:54:48.900 with my children. Right. And, and honestly, at that point, I'm sure your faith in the FBI's

00:54:54.980 actually making an arrest was waning. It's like, how many years of this, um, I'm going to have to

00:54:59.880 go through. This is going to be my whole life. It's going to be my children's whole life. You did

00:55:03.360 your part, right? Definitely did your part. So he, he cops this plea. He's in prison now till 2029.

00:55:11.380 I mean, it's 2023 that's six years away. He's still going to be a relatively young man. And

00:55:17.940 now he knows, he, he knows now about you. He knows it wasn't a friendship that you were taping him.

00:55:27.340 So that's gotta be scary for you. Um, it, well, it is, uh, in a sense it is because I've had all

00:55:35.480 these years. He has enough money. If he wanted to do something, he could have, um, easily hired

00:55:40.460 someone. Um, you see that all the time. Um, my, I will, I will share with you. My daughter had said to

00:55:47.560 me, um, and I thought that she was, you know, a little, you know, overreacting, but she said to

00:55:54.160 me years ago, she was terrified of Jared with his money. Either he himself would do this or, um,

00:56:01.080 when he gets out of prison that she felt as though he would rape and murder her and her brother.

00:56:07.220 And I said, no, I said, why would you think that? And she said, um, well, you essentially took his,

00:56:13.940 took his children away from him. Why would he not do the same to you? And so I posed that to the agent

00:56:20.320 that I was working with. And the response really took me back. She said, um, she's not far off.

00:56:30.260 And that was the end of it. And I still to this day, it's still very disturbing, but it legitimized

00:56:37.900 my daughter's feelings that she wasn't, she wasn't far off. So there's a lot of twists and

00:56:45.820 turns that people don't realize that, um, you know, that are still in the shadows that we deal

00:56:53.800 with every day. Forgive me for this question, but I should just ask you for the record. You never did

00:56:58.680 provide any images or access to your children to Jared. Oh, oh no, no, not at all. And when I said,

00:57:07.440 um, moments ago about his, my leaving, you know, cause I couldn't take his engaging with my children,

00:57:15.060 that is through referencing his mentioning of my children, because I never brought them up and I

00:57:21.920 never gave any accurate names of their friends. I made up every name I ever used referring to a child

00:57:29.620 because one day I knew he would be in court. And in hindsight, that though, those names

00:57:37.100 being, um, in line with a child that I was referencing, but really didn't have anything to do,

00:57:45.240 they would end up to have been subjected to going on the stand, being interviewed to make sure

00:57:51.280 everything, uh, you know, was okay that they weren't involved. So I made everything up, um, from the

00:57:57.100 names to everything so that that would never take place.

00:58:00.480 He's 45 now, I guess he'll get out at age 51. That's still a relatively young man. You don't

00:58:07.880 grow out of pedophilia. It does. It's a, it's a lifelong affliction. This is why so many people are

00:58:14.360 like, well, how does he get out? Like, how do we keep him in? How do we make sure he doesn't hurt

00:58:19.060 more children? And when he like, what reason do we have to believe he's not going to just

00:58:22.540 pick back up where he left off when he gets out? First, he, he has no remorse. He never did. And

00:58:30.700 any of his comments, any of the articles that you read, anyone that he speaks to, he's only remorseful

00:58:36.920 because he got caught and he's saying, Oh, I made a big mistake. Big mistake. He never talks about

00:58:44.340 what he did was wrong. He never talked about how sorry he feels for his victims. Never. Every,

00:58:51.760 every single person from statistically speaking, that, that, um, commits a sexual crime,

00:59:01.740 that in their lifetime, they end up committing 179 on average, uh, sexual crimes. And I think he's

00:59:11.020 well over that quota, but when he gets out, he will have a lifetime of supervision until what some,

00:59:18.700 something falls through the cracks. I don't know. So my, you should be chemically castrated.

00:59:24.200 There should be a mandatory chemical castration. Yep. Absolutely. Well, I'll become a lobbyist and

00:59:29.480 be right there to, you know, try to help move that along because I, I do believe that somebody,

00:59:34.540 especially like him needs that. Um, if the FBI would release some of these recordings that

00:59:41.900 you have never heard, you've not heard you, that would undoubtedly be right there on the docus to,

00:59:48.940 um, to go through. There's worse than it's in, than is in the docuseries.

00:59:53.960 Oh, yes. Yes. You have to understand. I gave all of the recordings. It was only

01:00:00.500 these recordings. I didn't save every recording, you know, initially I was just giving them

01:00:07.460 everything. And then I, the reason why I have those recordings was for my own protection,

01:00:13.000 because I didn't want anything to be used against me and be thrown in as though, you know,

01:00:20.080 collateral damage because they couldn't make a case. And then all of a sudden, even though I didn't do

01:00:24.420 anything, you know, use these tapes again, you know, against me for any reason. I, there was

01:00:30.120 nothing that indicated they would do that, but I'm one that thinks ahead. So I had made copies

01:00:36.500 of those tapes for myself and I had every legal right to do so. They just didn't know that I made

01:00:42.480 those copies. Oh, smart. So there's, okay. I didn't realize that. And that was also probably

01:00:49.760 played for the judge. The most, the most graphic pieces of evidence. Possibly. Yes. We don't know.

01:00:57.520 Yes. No, we don't know. And I think there's a lot that's redacted. I think, you know, these

01:01:04.640 higher ups, these individuals in society, you know, as I said earlier, political to Hollywood

01:01:11.440 celebrities, who knows around the world that also were friendly with Jared or that would talk maybe

01:01:20.360 online and share ideas and, and children even, because at one point, and this is just before I

01:01:26.940 turned everything over to the FBI, Jared wanted me to meet him in Chicago. He wanted to, as he said,

01:01:32.660 get a couple of kids. And he talked about underground clubs. He knew where to, he knew where to go. And

01:01:40.780 that's when I was asking him, well, how would we get these kids? Where would we find them? Oh,

01:01:45.540 we'll, we'll, you know, we'll figure it out. So I knew just the way he was saying it and,

01:01:50.700 and leading towards it. He's done this before. He knows what he's doing. The FBI had told me that

01:01:58.360 a pedophile has different fetishes, if you will. So they're A, B, and C. Jared is truly an anomaly,

01:02:07.300 something they've never seen before. He has the entire alphabet. So that is what prompted them

01:02:13.320 in their review and rewriting of how to profile pedophiles.

01:02:21.200 Can, do you know whether, I know on the phone that recordings we heard in the film,

01:02:26.460 he's saying he went to Thailand and he's pretty explicit about what he allegedly did over there.

01:02:31.860 But then the docuseries also says that as far as we know, they couldn't find any evidence that he

01:02:38.120 actually did go to Thailand. Well, that struck me as odd because that you just look at his passport

01:02:43.100 to find out whether he went to Thailand and that's, that's knowable. So do we know whether

01:02:47.240 that was true? And do we know whether there were actual children victims as a, I mean, as opposed,

01:02:53.980 of course the victims in the photos were, were victims, but I mean, you know, that he laid hands

01:02:58.960 on children, actual children. Is, is there evidence that I do not know? I know what he told me. I know

01:03:07.280 her detail. You cannot make that up. I mean, there's too many minute details, reactions,

01:03:16.660 conversations he's had. Um, even with this one particular boy, his parents, that this is what

01:03:24.200 they do. This is how they make a living. They don't have a problem with it. Talking about the

01:03:28.540 child. They want to do this. He would tell me they want to, and there is proof that he went to Thailand

01:03:34.800 because there are other production companies that are doing documentaries or they were because I was

01:03:42.560 scouted by a number of the movie years and they had called upon me because of my, my work. Um,

01:03:50.960 and there are cases, he went to Thailand. He went to, to Asia, different areas around the world.

01:03:58.440 And he would go with the founder of subway. He would go with some of the vendors from subway,

01:04:05.560 um, as a group. So whether they were, uh, conducting business or it was a pleasure trip that I do not

01:04:14.100 know, but there is actual evidence and proof that they did go. I don't know if that's been halted,

01:04:20.660 or what, or these doc use, these documentaries will come out here in short order, but they've been

01:04:27.560 working on them for the past two or three years.

01:04:32.860 You mentioned subway. I mean, we haven't even really touched on that piece of it. It's,

01:04:38.280 it's, it's miraculous to me that this brand withstood this controversy that the face of the

01:04:46.660 brand turned out to be a serial pedophile. There's no other kind and they're fine. They did fine.

01:04:54.840 There was a question about whether they knew or had reason to know that Jared had this issue with

01:05:02.840 children. The docu-series touches on it a bit. His wife seemed to think that subway had been given a

01:05:10.700 heads up on at least one complaint about inappropriate behavior towards children. Subway denied that. But

01:05:18.040 what do we know about Subway's knowledge, if any? I know for a fact Subway knows. I wrote them an email

01:05:25.440 during one of my, uh, breaks, if you will. I had an emotional break one night. Um, I remember being

01:05:34.400 curled up on the couch, um, and crying because of what I had just heard. And I said, that's enough.

01:05:41.760 I wrote an email to Subway. I went on their corporate website. And once you hit submit, it's,

01:05:48.720 it's, you don't get a coffee because it wasn't through your own email feed. So I sent it to them

01:05:55.100 and I told them that Jared was, um, you know, was a sex offender that he had made comments,

01:06:04.560 um, about my children. Um, and that I know that he's doing these things. I forget verbatim exactly

01:06:11.440 what I said. I do have notes. I'm in one of my journals that I could reference, but for a long

01:06:16.460 time, Subway said, Oh, we never, we never received that. Well, a forensic, you know, investigation

01:06:23.540 revealed otherwise from, by a third party. And then finally Subway stood up. Oh, we did find that

01:06:30.860 email, but it didn't say anything about sexual nature. Well, why would I write Subway otherwise

01:06:36.400 to tell them I like their sandwiches? I don't think so. Um, so they did. And that was, um, written in

01:06:44.160 one of the articles. I do have a copy of that, but I'm sure that it can be, we found it easily online

01:06:49.960 on if you look, but you know, it's, it's very interesting. I've had some people approach me,

01:06:56.260 um, you know, through, through messenger or, or whatnot. And, you know, a couple individuals,

01:07:02.660 it was maybe three or four, they thought I did this for the money. Well, I never got paid for my

01:07:07.920 time. And somebody, one person had read, Oh, you did this. You, I bet you already are writing your

01:07:14.620 book to make all this money. Well, you know, that's a very small minded person, in my opinion,

01:07:20.680 because if I wanted to make money and that was the way I was going to do it, something so,

01:07:26.060 you know, I don't even have a word to put to that, but why not go to Subway and, you know,

01:07:33.900 ask, tell them, you know, well, I have information and I'm willing to settle out or

01:07:38.400 that's a good point. I'm about to destroy your brand money. It is absolutely. Or Jared,

01:07:43.020 Jared was a rich man. You could have gone to him. Yes, of course. And that's very clear. If you

01:07:48.040 watch the arc of this story, you're not, but you should write a book because people need to know,

01:07:52.680 I mean, this is a fascinating story and there's a lot to be learned. And that, that leads me to my

01:07:56.260 next point. We mentioned at the beginning, the grooming behavior. So he would say, you know,

01:08:02.780 you were sort of pretending that you were fine with his predilections and, you know,

01:08:07.040 how could you be of assistance to him with it? And you were trying to learn about his methods

01:08:10.860 and you did learn. So the part of the grooming, as I understood it from the film was he wanted you

01:08:17.080 to make sure like you in grooming kids for him, you talked about inappropriate sexual things

01:08:24.700 in front of them. So can you talk a little bit about that? Sure. Well, first he was always

01:08:30.800 wanting to make sure I dressed accordingly, which I never did. I let him know that he wanted to know

01:08:36.820 what kind of bathing suits I have. Do I have a really tiny bikini and to prance around, around

01:08:43.040 the children when they, when they're over and to pick out who I think would be best and their

01:08:48.920 siblings. So my, my children's friends and their, their siblings, the younger, the better. And

01:08:55.660 Jared, initially his statement to me was, um, how hot he thought middle school girls were at the end.

01:09:03.420 And it went from there all the way to infants to prepubescent. And you have him on tape saying

01:09:11.360 the younger, the better. You'll hear that with your own ears. Sorry, go ahead. Tickling and wrestling

01:09:16.240 and gradually getting closer to the private parts and then doing like a daring to, so it turned it into

01:09:24.000 a game. Um, he used his popularity, his, um, you know, himself being famous because there was such an allure

01:09:32.940 and, and the children were so drawn, they get to meet someone famous. And I saw that all the time, but

01:09:39.000 he, he says in one of the clips about, um, the, the one from the broken home, he was always, he had it figured

01:09:49.200 out and what he didn't, he would go with it and keep it as something that he just studied children

01:09:56.600 on out to get closer and closer. And that's what his focus was. That was so disturbing. So now moms

01:10:08.680 or single dads who are raising kids by themselves now have to worry about their kids being singled out

01:10:16.180 for targeting by a pedophile because they're from a quote, broken home, because they may have an extra

01:10:22.240 sadness in their lives that some sick twisted effort will take advantage. I mean, that's, these are the

01:10:28.700 realities that we have to wrestle with and as exposed by your reporting and this story. Um, but the

01:10:36.380 inappropriate sex talk at a young age, it is relevant, Rochelle. I mean, you know, we're debating this

01:10:41.400 right now on a national level about these books that are coming into the K through 12 education

01:10:46.980 system. And some say, Oh, they're banning books, you know? And I think the truth is they're not

01:10:52.220 banning. They're pulling books out of children's school libraries that are not age appropriate.

01:10:59.020 And this is people defending that action of pulling the books. We'll say they're groomers,

01:11:04.360 the people who want this in front of the children. And I see the point inappropriate sex talk before

01:11:09.800 in front of children, isn't just improper. It can actually lead to very dangerous things

01:11:16.820 in that child's future. Oh, without a doubt. I mean, that's just any, any, you know, base level

01:11:25.200 psychologist counselor will tell you that. I mean, a lot of us don't have a degree in, in, um, mental

01:11:32.220 health, but a lot of it is common sense. And that has been removed too many times over.

01:11:38.960 Uh, it's, it's, it's interesting when you see what they do allow in and, but they are taking,

01:11:46.220 taking some measures to remove this, but is it too far, you know, too, too little, too late?

01:11:53.980 I don't know. Now, if you look statistically speaking, um, over the years, homeschooling has

01:12:00.360 grown dramatically as a personal choice. Um, there's a number of reasons that people have made this choice,

01:12:08.460 but from my understanding, a lot of it, because it has to do with, you know, you see not just men,

01:12:15.880 but women also violating children. Um, your educators, clergy, group leaders, uh, politicians,

01:12:24.420 even law enforcement. Um, I know that there's a, just a small amount, but small is not none. And

01:12:31.740 that's where we need to get. Right. So these moms are like, I'm not putting my kid in the school and

01:12:37.520 my kid's not joining the boy Scouts and isn't going to be an altar boy. I mean, I can relate to

01:12:43.660 some of that to some extent. It's just, you're so, especially when they're really little and they

01:12:48.040 can't really vocalize and they could be taken advantage of. You have to be so careful. So I like,

01:12:55.340 do we know about Jared, how he got this way? Rochelle is, has anybody been able to interview

01:13:01.240 him or, you know, did you ever ask him? Like, was he molested? I did ask him. He said, no, he was not.

01:13:09.480 But I think that a lot of people, if they were, I don't think they're just going to come out and say

01:13:14.980 that even if he was comfortable with me, that if he was perhaps that, um, that just hit too,

01:13:23.320 too close to home. Um, I can understand that, but I think personally that it's just within his,

01:13:31.640 his genetic makeup. I think that there's a default in, um, how he's wired. I think that's just,

01:13:39.400 I, whether it's an illness, I kind of think that it is. Um, I would hope that it is in the sense that,

01:13:46.380 you know, hopefully we can find a fix for it later or at some point, but he doesn't even

01:13:53.200 acknowledge that there's a problem. And you asked me, you said about anyone interviewing him in this

01:13:59.440 docuseries, I gave the, the producers and directors the idea. I said, well, why don't we close the

01:14:05.880 docuseries with a face-off between Jared and I at the facility, um, that he's in, because I would like

01:14:14.940 some closure. I would like to say a few things to him. Um, but he, they did send the request and,

01:14:20.920 and he, you know, he declined. Um, but that is something that I would have been interested in

01:14:29.060 doing because, you know, there's nothing easier than gauging somebody by their body.

01:14:36.460 Hmm. Does he have any ongoing relationship with his parents? Do you know what that situation is?

01:14:42.440 I don't, I don't know. Um, I think, I believe his mom was a teacher, his father's a doctor,

01:14:48.880 um, probably retired now, but from all information that has been dispersed out there is he had a very

01:14:58.940 good upbringing, um, you know, prominent family, uh, really no money issues. So they didn't have,

01:15:05.920 have that aspect. So I don't know why Jared has done what he's done, but I have heard, um, and this

01:15:14.140 is secondhand. So there, but people that went to school with Jared, um, college, for example, he,

01:15:21.080 he would, I was told that he would sell, um, pornography to make some extra money. Um, and he made quite a

01:15:29.580 business doing that. So they also talked about how he was morbidly obese from a young age that he had

01:15:38.100 no friends in high school. You know, there's a reason he got famous for losing 245 pounds. He had

01:15:44.360 it to lose. And then some had, you know, enough leftover. It's like 245 pounds. What's left a large

01:15:49.960 man. So he was very, very large. And I do think there's, when you're that kind of an eater from a

01:15:55.860 young age, there's an issue, there's an issue there. I don't know what went on in that family.

01:16:00.180 Um, but you know, you see your kid is what, 350, 400 pounds and has absolutely no friends. That's,

01:16:06.600 that's not a good parent. That is not a good set of parents. Something, something was wrong in that

01:16:10.800 house. Um, all right. So a couple of questions for you as now we're thinking about his release is,

01:16:18.840 do we know if there's any chance he's getting out earlier than 2029? No, he cannot. He's not allowed

01:16:23.280 to get out earlier according to the stipulations the judge had set down. Is there any chance he

01:16:31.180 could face other charges? You know, I know I've seen you reaching out saying, if you are a victim

01:16:36.580 of Jared Vogels, reach out to me because there may be children who have been molested by him who

01:16:42.800 haven't yet come forward. Absolutely. In my mind and from my experience, that is an actual fact.

01:16:52.860 There are, there are adults now, perhaps they're just trying to, you know, keep it in the shadows

01:16:59.720 in the recesses of their mind. That is not healthy. You will not be all you can be. And you won't have

01:17:06.380 a truly fulfilling life unless you address what had happened. And the fact is, is that it did happen.

01:17:14.200 And if you come out and you step forward, you know, I could be and give you my shoulders,

01:17:22.740 my strength, my voice to help to be able to disseminate and, and set this into the, the areas.

01:17:32.640 I know the FBI has a great place that you can go on their website and report things. But if,

01:17:40.020 if anyone is hearing this and they are a victim of Jared Vogels, please, I, I really, I really must

01:17:48.300 insist that you please step forward and share what happened because it can make a difference. It can

01:17:57.680 keep him behind bars where he needs to be because the day he is released is the day society is going to

01:18:04.600 be in grave danger. And I truly believe that. Me too. So you're, what are you doing now? Are you

01:18:13.560 still doing radio and, and journalism? It seems like some of your work has shifted to advocacy on

01:18:20.060 behalf of kids now and writing books to help sound the alarm for families. Yes. Um, I had stepped away.

01:18:27.120 Um, the FBI had asked me or told me two years ago, I had to leave my business and, um, eliminate all my

01:18:35.600 original contact information so that, uh, cause Jared had that same contact information. So all of that

01:18:42.620 had to go away. Um, when Jared was arrested because they actually, it was before when, before Jared was

01:18:49.080 arrested when I ended my work with the FBI. Um, so everything had to end. And so I went off into a

01:18:56.220 different arena, um, for, for a while. And then I had fallen ill, um, for, for quite a while and was

01:19:03.620 bedridden for about three years, but what? Yes. Yes. I, I, um, slipped at, at, um, uh, uh, you know,

01:19:13.000 a job that I was doing as team leader for Keller Williams in Sarasota and I had slipped, broke my ankle

01:19:19.700 and I came down with RSD, which is, um, now it's, um, reflex sympathetic dystrophy. Um, it's AKA the

01:19:27.780 suicide disease, the world's most painful chronic condition. Um, I've learned to disseminate the pain

01:19:33.800 and, and that's another book that I'm working on actually on how to teach people how to do what I've

01:19:38.460 done. Um, because I still have it to this day. Um, but what I am now doing, and I am going to start

01:19:46.980 doing podcasts and get back on, on, um, terrestrial radio again, because MTV is possible. That's really

01:19:54.240 where I, I did my best work and where I would like to be. Um, uh, since this docuseries, um,

01:20:02.060 under contract. So it's one year from the date of airing before I can do any of that. But in the

01:20:07.700 meanwhile, I am writing, I have, um, three, three books pertaining to, um, child advocacy for,

01:20:14.640 for child sexual abuse that goes from, um, it goes one about the story, you know, uh,

01:20:23.220 you know, in the mind, the mind of a monster, and that's going to be all these other areas that I

01:20:30.580 haven't been able to share because there's just not enough time. So I'm going to be, that's all in

01:20:36.300 that book. Um, and you know, all the behind the scenes and, you know, everything that happened

01:20:43.680 during my time with the FBI, but then the other, another book that I'm writing is for children.

01:20:50.260 Um, and it's going to be, uh, it is actually, cause I'm about halfway through, but it's about,

01:20:55.860 it's a workbook on how to strategically position themselves to be their own superhero. And,

01:21:05.960 you know, with, between knowing the signs of a predator and what good play and bad play is,

01:21:14.340 um, I actually am going to be putting it on my site, just the outline of where I'm at and,

01:21:20.020 and exactly what is happening with my writing so that I, cause I'm still in the process. So

01:21:27.200 I would love feedback from the public. So I will share some of that so that it can be written into

01:21:31.540 the best possible workbook out there that I'm hoping at some point, not just for personal use,

01:21:37.260 but it can also be implemented in, um, in school criteria as well. And then another one is for

01:21:44.160 caregivers and parents to know the warning signs, because when someone is being abused,

01:21:49.660 whether it's the elderly, um, or they're manipulated or a child, they're very silent. Uh,

01:21:55.860 you don't recognize what's really going on. Um, in most cases, a lot of times you do,

01:22:01.720 you just see something that's off, but it's like asking the right questions, looking for certain

01:22:07.060 markers. Are they uncomfortable? Um, when this particular person is approached, do they,

01:22:12.540 do they fight when you say, Oh, you get to stay over their house tonight? Uh, there's,

01:22:17.300 there's a lot, um, that I think that can be very helpful. And, and there's a lot of elderly that are

01:22:23.980 not only abused by personal caregivers in their home, but in facilities as well, trusted employees

01:22:30.620 that, you know, the people are putting hidden cameras in the rooms because they sent something

01:22:35.400 is off. Hmm. Well, this is all great work. I mean, this clearly is your life's work. This is going to

01:22:42.880 make a difference in people's lives. I, I do have to ask you, you know, now with him in jail,

01:22:48.660 with the story out there, any regrets, like if you had it to do over again, would you?

01:22:57.920 Oh, absolutely. Without a doubt that there's other cases that I'm working on. As a matter of

01:23:02.820 fact, they're not child sexual abuse cases. Um, they're, they're very diverse in nature. Um,

01:23:08.500 but there are other cases that have presented themselves to me. I'm all in and, you know,

01:23:14.660 law enforcement has always been, um, you know, open arms with me. And I am so happy

01:23:22.080 that I am received that way because when I came out after Jared was initially arrested,

01:23:29.880 I felt as though, wow, you know, a whistleblower that, you know, they're going to want, keep me at

01:23:36.760 arm's length. They're going to think less of me and years pass. And I have come to find out

01:23:42.180 because they've told me themselves. Absolutely not that they greatly respect the work that I did.

01:23:47.540 And, you know, and I still continue my work today.

01:23:52.980 I'm so glad to hear that. And I'm so glad to meet you, Rochelle. Thank you for telling your

01:23:57.000 story and for all that you've done. Oh, I appreciate you, Megan, very much. And I want

01:24:02.040 to thank you and all your listeners for the opportunity to be here today. Thank you very much.

01:24:06.700 All the best to you and your family. Thank you.

01:24:09.040 Isn't she amazing? This is a story. Oh, my God. Tomorrow we have an equally fascinating discussion

01:24:19.460 on cults. We've got the personal story from two guests of what it's like to be in a cult

01:24:26.200 and to get out of one. You will not want to miss this. We'll see you then.

01:24:31.420 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - June 14, 2023

How Jared From Subway Was Exposed： A Megyn Kelly Show True Crime Special ｜ Ep. 572

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript