The Megyn Kelly Show - How Police Used Genetics in Idaho Murders Case, and Solving Crimes with Genealogy, with CeCe Moore

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00:00:30.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.560 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.300 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:44.000 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.800 Idaho murder suspect Brian Kohlberger in court just a short time ago

00:00:50.240 waiving his right to a speedy preliminary hearing.

00:00:54.280 He will get a preliminary hearing, but it will not be ASAP.

00:00:57.600 The judge setting a court date for June 26th.

00:01:01.540 This will be the point at which prosecutors can present the evidence they have

00:01:05.680 trying to convince the court that this case should go forward.

00:01:09.180 They will almost certainly get it, and we will go forward with a trial.

00:01:13.240 We know that DNA played a role in helping to identify Kohlberger as the accused suspect in connection

00:01:23.220 with the murder of these four Idaho college students on November 13th.

00:01:27.980 They were murdered, according to the affidavit, between 4 a.m. and 4.20 a.m.

00:01:32.700 in the middle of the night.

00:01:33.760 It was basically a 16-minute window of time in which someone went into their home,

00:01:38.920 went up to the third floor where they murdered two girls,

00:01:42.260 went down to the second floor,

00:01:44.120 murdered one girl and her boyfriend,

00:01:45.540 and left the other two women reported to be sleeping in that house's roommates alone.

00:01:52.680 One we now know from the affidavit says she she did see him.

00:01:55.960 She laid eyes on him as he left the house,

00:01:58.080 saying he had a surgical mask on, the kind we wear during COVID,

00:02:02.860 that she remembered he had bushy eyebrows, medium build.

00:02:06.460 And that was basically what she remembered about him, dressed in black.

00:02:12.000 There is reporting that something called investigative genetic genealogy

00:02:16.560 may have played a part in actually nabbing this guy.

00:02:21.400 And today we are thrilled to have one of the world's top experts in that field join us for the show.

00:02:27.200 What started as a hobby has literally changed lives.

00:02:31.700 CeCe Moore is now bringing justice to victims

00:02:34.020 and getting violent criminals off the streets by the hundred.

00:02:38.460 I mean, wait until you hear the numbers.

00:02:40.820 Often helping solve crimes that have baffled police for decades.

00:02:44.160 And we will discuss some of them and how this method of crime fighting

00:02:48.140 has become absolutely integral to putting criminals behind bars.

00:02:52.840 CeCe Moore says there will be no more serial killers because of this.

00:02:57.080 When I first interviewed her back in 2018,

00:03:00.020 she had just started working on criminal cases.

00:03:02.600 At the time, six cases she worked on had led to arrests.

00:03:07.480 Today, that number has ballooned over 250 solves.

00:03:12.420 About 200 of those have identified violent criminals.

00:03:16.880 The rest involve unidentified Jane and John Doe's,

00:03:19.820 many of whom were victims of violent crime.

00:03:22.160 Think about it.

00:03:22.620 Sometimes they find bodies, including young, young victims,

00:03:27.880 teenagers who have gone missing, who are on milk cartons and so on.

00:03:31.640 And we never know what happened to these kids.

00:03:35.420 Well, CeCe Moore is helping put some names out there in connection with these victims

00:03:41.560 and giving families the closure they need,

00:03:45.420 never mind spotting the actual perpetrators of the crimes.

00:03:49.400 CeCe Moore is a genetic genealogist and founder of DNA Detectives.

00:03:53.000 She is also chief genetic genealogist at Parabon NanoLabs,

00:03:57.180 the incredible lab that helps solve these crimes.

00:04:00.220 CeCe, welcome.

00:04:01.420 Great to see you again.

00:04:02.580 Thanks for having me on the show.

00:04:04.220 It's been a long time.

00:04:05.940 Yeah.

00:04:06.520 It's been going on five years now since I first interviewed you.

00:04:10.580 And your practice was sort of in its infancy.

00:04:14.540 I mean, you had just joined Parabon, I think, for three months

00:04:17.620 at that point when I interviewed you in May of 2018.

00:04:21.220 Wow, it's been quite a wild ride since then.

00:04:25.700 You know, I'd been a genetic genealogist solving mysteries for many years by that point,

00:04:30.320 but I had just started working with law enforcement.

00:04:33.500 Right, right.

00:04:34.140 And so let's just give the audience, I love this piece of your story,

00:04:37.560 the background of how you got into this.

00:04:39.580 It's not like you got a PhD in criminology.

00:04:43.160 It's you had never been a cop or an FBI agent.

00:04:46.580 Explain how you got into this and sort of help discover this.

00:04:48.980 Well, I had always loved genetics and genealogy, two separate things.

00:04:56.860 And I was thrilled when I found out in the year, about a little after 2000,

00:05:03.340 that a company called Family Tree DNA was offering DNA tests for people who wanted to

00:05:09.500 use it to learn more about their family history.

00:05:11.720 And so I started reading about what they were doing.

00:05:16.240 And at the time, I didn't have a lot of money to test, so I didn't start testing immediately.

00:05:20.600 I just kept up with the brand new field and what people were learning about it.

00:05:26.080 And I was building my own family tree using paper records, the paper trail, we call it,

00:05:33.800 which is how all of us started.

00:05:35.920 All of us who are interested in genetic genealogy started by building our own tree.

00:05:41.080 That wasn't something I had done when I was really young.

00:05:43.960 I was extremely busy with all sorts of different pursuits.

00:05:47.560 It was something that I did when my niece, my oldest niece, was about to be married.

00:05:53.160 And I was trying to think of what would be an interesting gift, a unique gift.

00:05:57.020 So I thought, oh, I'll build our family tree.

00:05:59.300 Aha, right?

00:06:00.500 Famous last words.

00:06:01.760 Never finished it.

00:06:02.640 She never got that gift.

00:06:04.260 But that's what got me into it.

00:06:06.220 And the combination of two things that I was really passionate about was so fascinating to me.

00:06:14.640 And so that was really the beginning of my involvement in genealogy and then genetic genealogy.

00:06:22.440 So how did it turn to crime fighting?

00:06:26.180 Well, that's a long story.

00:06:28.520 I guess we have quite a bit of time.

00:06:30.680 But very early on when I became involved in this, I was aware that there was a huge amount of potential.

00:06:38.500 When we first started with genetic genealogy, we were only using more limited type of testing.

00:06:45.840 The Y chromosome testing, which traces your father's father's father's father's line, and mitochondrial DNA testing, which traces your mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's line.

00:06:56.120 And it was quite limited.

00:06:58.740 And a few of us started asking, could we use autosomal DNA?

00:07:02.520 So autosomal DNA is the type you inherit from both.

00:07:05.080 Wait, let me stop you.

00:07:05.780 Hold on.

00:07:06.600 Hold on.

00:07:07.160 Because I want to make sure I understand it.

00:07:09.500 So when you were just doing those two types, tracing the Y and tracing the X, how were you doing?

00:07:15.640 Before we get to the more advanced, what were you doing?

00:07:18.940 What kind of crime fighting or examination were you doing with those?

00:07:22.440 And how did you even get access to those?

00:07:24.820 So it was all about family history at that point.

00:07:27.340 Women had to test their father for the Y chromosome to learn about their father's line, or you could test a brother or a cousin.

00:07:35.200 I tested my mom's first cousin so I could look at her direct paternal line, my maternal grandfather's line, tested my dad.

00:07:44.540 What you're trying to do is see the origin.

00:07:46.460 When you say that, forgive me for interrupting, I just want to make sure everybody understands.

00:07:49.760 When you say test them, like I'm going to have my brother tested for his Y chromosome, what does that mean?

00:07:54.200 What do they do, like a cheek swab or how do they test it?

00:07:57.340 Yeah, it was a cheek swab and you have to convince one of your relatives to do it.

00:08:03.900 And they think you were crazy, of course, back then, because no one had ever even heard of this type of testing at that point.

00:08:09.920 Okay, let's go, keep going.

00:08:11.840 So mitochondrial DNA is your mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's line.

00:08:16.420 And both of these types of DNA change really slowly.

00:08:20.200 So you're looking at deep ancestry.

00:08:22.160 You're looking at the origins of your direct paternal line and your direct maternal line.

00:08:27.820 But you're not examining the inner parts of your family tree.

00:08:31.360 And so autosomal DNA is a different type of DNA.

00:08:34.660 Again, before we get to that, let me just ask you a couple more questions before we're still in the infancy stage.

00:08:39.780 What do you get back?

00:08:40.580 So you mail it in to some company, the cheek swab, and then when you get back, you know, generations back on the Y chromosome, the Y line on your dad's side, what are they saying to you?

00:08:52.220 Your great, great, great, great grandpa was this guy?

00:08:54.720 Like what comes back?

00:08:56.040 What comes back is a list of men with the Y chromosome that would have similar or identical Y chromosome signatures.

00:09:05.060 Now, because in many societies, surnames are passed down from father to son, father to son, just like the Y chromosome, you often will see surname continuity.

00:09:15.940 So many of us started these volunteer surname projects.

00:09:19.700 But how do they know, like, let's say, you know, my dad, my dad's last name was Kelly, and so was his dad and so on.

00:09:27.160 So, but how do they know whether, you know, my great, great grandfather is linked to me because my great, great grandfather wasn't putting DNA into anything and sending in a cheek swab.

00:09:37.280 So how do they know?

00:09:39.000 Well, they don't know.

00:09:40.040 You have to interpret it.

00:09:41.340 So in my case, I tested my dad's brother to make sure they have the same Y chromosome, same father.

00:09:47.620 I tested a second cousin to make sure his Y chromosome was the same.

00:09:52.680 And I finally tested a fifth cousin to confirm that my dad's great, great, great, great grandfather was the person that the paper records tell us it was.

00:10:02.960 So I was following his surname, my surname, Moore, back generation, you know, generation, generation.

00:10:09.620 So keep going back in that tree, confirming my grandfather is the correct person.

00:10:15.280 Now, I don't need to be dense.

00:10:16.900 Help me out.

00:10:17.980 But I want to understand.

00:10:19.140 So, like, my dad was Ed Kelly.

00:10:22.440 They don't have Ed Kelly in the system, you know, that does this testing because he never did any DNA testing.

00:10:28.940 He died a long time ago.

00:10:30.700 So what would my thing come back saying, Ed Kelly was your father?

00:10:36.180 And how would they know that?

00:10:37.820 Like, that's kind of where you come in.

00:10:39.220 I realize to figure out family tree, but like what how would they know who on earth I'm related to just based on my brother's DNA?

00:10:48.000 How would they be able to link it to somebody who wasn't in their system?

00:10:51.860 They don't.

00:10:52.500 That's what you do.

00:10:53.480 So you would get a list of people who, say, shared your brother's Y chromosome or it was very similar to his Y chromosome.

00:11:00.800 Modern day.

00:11:02.160 Yes.

00:11:02.600 And probably a lot of them would have the surname Kelly.

00:11:05.660 Now, that is only if there was no break in your direct paternal line, meaning no adoption, misattributed paternity, that type of thing.

00:11:13.960 And so you might get a bunch of Kellys.

00:11:16.140 But if there was an adoption or a break in that line, maybe you'd get a bunch of Smiths, right?

00:11:22.240 And then you really have a mystery.

00:11:23.900 Then you say, OK, why is my brother or father's Y chromosome connecting to Smiths instead of Kelly's?

00:11:31.500 And so it's just a way of confirming or learning more about that direct paternal line.

00:11:37.680 And like, for instance, in my family, there was this argument whether our Moors were from Germany or Ireland.

00:11:43.380 So that was one of my interests, was trying to prove which it was.

00:11:47.860 Is it an Irish origin Y chromosome or a German origin Y chromosome?

00:11:53.500 And so when we were first using genetic genealogy, it was looking at this very deep ancestry.

00:11:59.180 It wasn't looking at anywhere near present day.

00:12:02.760 Now, it could help confirm things.

00:12:03.520 So did you get back something that said like more, more, more, more, more, more, more, you know, thousands of Moors?

00:12:08.600 Like I would, Kelly, of course, is very common.

00:12:10.520 And I can't imagine I'd get back hundreds of thousands.

00:12:13.940 I mean, it would be so many that it would be it would feel useless.

00:12:17.700 But so where do you start?

00:12:19.140 There are different origins for both of our surnames, Moore and Kelly, because they're so common.

00:12:23.880 And so you would only match those Kellys or Moors, in my case, that have the same origin.

00:12:30.160 You know, Moore is from all over the world, basically.

00:12:33.540 Now, Kelly, you're probably looking at Ireland.

00:12:35.940 And so you might get lots of Irish people, not necessarily with the last name Kelly, because the Y chromosome goes back so far.

00:12:44.380 You might connect before they even adopted the surnames.

00:12:48.300 But you're only going to match that group, not all the other Kellys in the world.

00:12:53.200 And my dad's Moore line was actually really unique.

00:12:56.860 When I first joined the Moore surname project, he didn't match any of the Moors.

00:13:01.920 And there were already quite a few people in it, even in the early days.

00:13:04.980 And so it will tell you which group of those Moors, which group of those Kellys your line fits into.

00:13:12.800 And you wouldn't have thousands of matches, typically.

00:13:16.300 I mean, when I started, you had almost no matches.

00:13:18.980 You were lucky if you got a match.

00:13:21.140 Mm hmm.

00:13:21.740 And so that's based on so they would they're looking at Moors that are roaming the Earth right now who have submitted DNA to try to give you as much info as they can.

00:13:30.060 And they can see that your dad, your dad Moore, has similar DNA to these other Moors who have also participated here and given a cheek swab.

00:13:38.500 And we can glean something about their ancestors just to get you started.

00:13:43.420 That's it's really just a start.

00:13:45.500 Right.

00:13:46.080 So much of it is building trees, building your own tree, building other people's tree, trying to find where they converge.

00:13:51.840 How far back can you find that common ancestor in the tree?

00:13:56.580 And so it's not one of these things where it's done for you.

00:14:00.320 You're doing all the work.

00:14:01.520 You're just getting the clues.

00:14:03.240 OK, there's a man in Michigan who shares my dad's Y chromosome.

00:14:07.800 There's a man in Germany who shares my dad's Y chromosome.

00:14:10.980 Why?

00:14:11.840 We've got to figure out why they do.

00:14:14.160 OK.

00:14:14.560 And that's now I get it.

00:14:15.560 So these are modern day men who have also sent in their their DNA.

00:14:19.400 And so it's a start.

00:14:21.460 Somehow there's a relation between this guy and my dad and maybe that this guy and me.

00:14:26.720 And this is where your family tree building comes in.

00:14:31.340 And so let's go to that because that's like an investigative piece.

00:14:34.240 That is like, you know, newspaper articles, oh, bits.

00:14:39.420 I remember we talked about this on NBC, but it's like anything you can get your hands on to tell you the story about that guy.

00:14:46.460 And then you build it out around him like a tree, like just as far like an actual tree, like what branch goes here and what branch goes there.

00:14:53.980 Right.

00:14:54.200 So when we were working with Y chromosome, we would only build the father's father's father's father's father's father's father.

00:15:00.360 What you're talking about now is what we're doing today with a totally different type of DNA.

00:15:06.960 Now, that's the autosomal DNA that you're you're trying to mention.

00:15:10.460 OK, so you used to just do sort of this investigative work and trying to figure out the dad vertically, the mom.

00:15:16.460 And now, OK, now take it to where you wanted to take it with what how it's changed.

00:15:20.320 So that was really fascinating and wonderful.

00:15:22.740 And we started thousands of surname projects doing that.

00:15:26.140 But for those of us that were hungry for more, we really wanted to be able to explore those ancestors in the middle of our tree, not just those lines.

00:15:36.520 And we started asking some of the scientists, could we use a type of DNA called autosomal DNA, which is auto like the car zomal.

00:15:45.220 And that type of DNA, even women inherit that from their fathers.

00:15:50.320 So we wouldn't have to test a brother or father or cousin.

00:15:54.340 We could test our own DNA to learn about our father's side.

00:15:58.000 You get 50 percent from each of your parents.

00:16:00.920 You get on average 25 percent from each of your grandparents, about 12 and a half percent from each of your great grandparents.

00:16:08.000 So that seemed really exciting.

00:16:10.300 But scientists told us back before 2009 that it couldn't be done, that you could not use autosomal DNA for genealogy because it recombines so quickly.

00:16:21.720 We were used to using very static type of DNA, type of DNA that mutated very slowly.

00:16:27.500 But now asking about autosomal DNA, the traditional belief at that time was that it changes too quickly and therefore you wouldn't be able to use it in genealogy.

00:16:38.940 But that turned out not to be true.

00:16:42.100 That's right.

00:16:43.160 So a very groundbreaking company called 23andMe introduced an autosomal based test for health purposes.

00:16:52.400 I think most of us have heard of 23andMe now, but back then it was brand new.

00:16:57.260 And just as an FYI, the woman who started that and runs it still, I think, is Anne Wojcicki, who's the sister of Susan Wojcicki.

00:17:05.000 I know that the last name is spelled tough.

00:17:07.780 Yes.

00:17:08.020 And the sister of Susan, who runs YouTube, and there's another gunner of a sister in that family, and the mother was a gunner.

00:17:15.060 It's a very interesting family.

00:17:17.520 And Anne used to be married to one of the Google founders, Sergey Brin, I think.

00:17:23.380 Okay, I'm really testing my memory.

00:17:25.000 In any event, she, on her own, decided to start this company, very interesting, called 23andMe, which most people now have heard of.

00:17:30.840 And correct me if I'm wrong, Cece, but I thought it started off as like a health website.

00:17:38.740 You know, it's like you could send it in.

00:17:40.420 People who wanted to know, am I going to get Alzheimer's or what am I prone to would use 23andMe to figure out, based on your genetics, what you're necessarily guaranteed to get, but what you're prone to get.

00:17:51.820 And now it's just branched out well beyond that.

00:17:54.520 Right.

00:17:54.800 So Anne wanted to democratize our access to our own genetic information, which her purpose was different.

00:18:02.840 It was for health information.

00:18:04.640 She had worked on Wall Street in that sector and was discouraged about profit-making on our health and wanted to give people the power to be able to work with their own genetic information and learn about their own health and take charge of that.

00:18:21.960 And so her goal was very different than mine and my field, but we saw what she was doing and said, well, wait a minute, can we test our own autosomal DNA at her company and see if we can use it for genealogy?

00:18:38.420 And so that was really early adopters, people that had been engaged in genetic genealogy with these other types of testing and wanted more.

00:18:47.880 We just wanted to see if we could learn even more.

00:18:51.120 So you were asking 23andMe if they would help you out in that goal?

00:18:56.680 We didn't have to at first.

00:18:58.120 We just had to buy what was a very expensive test back then.

00:19:01.800 And in that case, you spit in a tube.

00:19:04.600 This is saliva collection instead of a cheek swab and mail it in.

00:19:08.780 And back then you could share with anybody.

00:19:11.420 You could share your information and you could check and see if you shared any DNA with someone.

00:19:16.560 So we started looking for shared segments, so long identical segments of DNA, those ATCs and Gs lining up in a row, because if you had that, it meant you likely had a common ancestor somewhere in your family tree.

00:19:32.100 And it opened up the inner branches for exploration.

00:19:36.320 Now, we didn't know if it would work at first, but at the same time, they had a very forward-thinking scientist named Mike McPherson at 23andMe who created a beta test of a tool called Relative Finder.

00:19:49.680 And there they compared everyone in their database against each other to see if they could find those long segments of identical DNA.

00:19:58.880 Yeah, yeah.

00:20:00.120 And they did.

00:20:00.780 So that's it's really interesting because, you know, some people find 23andMe and Session.com controversial.

00:20:06.500 They're worried that the government's going to hold on to your DNA and all that stuff, whatever.

00:20:10.140 But they don't get enough credit for being sort of seedlings for crime fighting in the way you're talking about now.

00:20:17.500 Now, they don't work with law enforcement.

00:20:18.800 We'll get to all that.

00:20:19.580 It's just that their innovation should be credited for helping give birth to this new lane of DNA exploration, which is putting tons of criminals in jail.

00:20:31.100 Right.

00:20:31.720 I don't think they want credit for it, but they certainly do deserve some credit for it.

00:20:35.980 You know, I went to them very early on, just shortly after that time that I'm discussing now, and asked if they would be willing to accept crime scene DNA into their database.

00:20:46.320 And they schooled me very quickly and sent me to her general counsel, Ashley Gold, at the time.

00:20:54.360 And we had about a three hour long conversation about why that wasn't something that they wanted to do, why that wasn't part of their business plan.

00:21:02.600 And so, you know, people are paranoid about this.

00:21:04.620 People they know, like people it's for all sorts of reasons.

00:21:08.140 It's not like everybody's a criminal or worried that their brother's a criminal, but there are some of those.

00:21:12.900 But it's also just distrust of government and just they're not government 23, but it's just like distrust of having your information out there in the 21st century and where it could go.

00:21:21.980 So I can see why they don't really want to be the assistant on this.

00:21:26.360 And we should just make clear now we'll get to it later.

00:21:28.120 But there it's a different database that you use for your analysis and your crime fighting.

00:21:34.460 It's not 23andMe.

00:21:35.380 It's not Ancestry.com.

00:21:36.840 Though I will say some of my favorite stories on NBC were the 23andMe stories or the Ancestry.com stories where people because it's well beyond looking into your health history.

00:21:45.960 Now, it is finding long lost relatives and like the identical twins, you know, that those are some of my favorite stories.

00:21:53.720 You think of going to 23andMe, you get your results back and it says you have an identical twin.

00:22:00.460 And we did some reunion shows of some of these women.

00:22:03.820 It was I'll never forget that.

00:22:05.780 Great stories.

00:22:08.080 Yeah, I mean, it's just an amazing tool for any type of family mystery, missing.

00:22:15.960 Family members.

00:22:17.460 It's incredible.

00:22:18.780 But at that beginning, it was very clear that we would never fulfill that potential unless we got lots of people to take the test, which is obviously one of the reasons they didn't want to involve law enforcement, especially at that early time.

00:22:31.440 And that made a lot of sense to me as well.

00:22:33.700 Now, coming from media and marketing, I knew that the only way that we were going to be able to build these databases to where we could actually solve mysteries was by sharing positive DNA testing stories.

00:22:48.200 And so I started working with 23andMe and on my own independently to promote positive DNA testing stories.

00:22:56.060 So if someone made an amazing discovery or even an upsetting discovery that led to, you know, a more positive outcome, these were things that we were I was starting to pitch to the media on my own.

00:23:08.860 But 23andMe was also getting inquiries and they would send them my way.

00:23:13.320 A lot of times we would have meetings with, for instance, a very early meeting with the 2020 producer.

00:23:19.980 She reached out to 23andMe and they said, hey, Cece, come on up so you can tell her some of the stories of the things you're finding in this database.

00:23:28.240 And so sometimes it goes a different way.

00:23:29.800 Like, sometimes it's like, why is there no link between me and my dad?

00:23:34.700 Like, that's that's awkward, too.

00:23:37.580 Now, and that's happened to millions of people now.

00:23:39.760 You know, there's over 40 million people that have taken these direct to consumer DNA tests.

00:23:44.840 And it's a pretty high percentage, surprisingly, that have found out that their father was not their biological father or their grandfather.

00:23:53.060 One of their grandfathers was not.

00:23:54.380 And so I don't know if people realize just how many people have made that shocking discovery from direct to consumer DNA testing.

00:24:02.520 Oh, what a tangled web we weave, right?

00:24:05.680 Some of those secrets women in particular in these cases are keeping.

00:24:10.460 Maybe you feel it's better left unsaid.

00:24:12.820 Maybe not.

00:24:13.500 Maybe you can see the chance to connect with somebody whose genetic background or other background be really interesting and helpful to you.

00:24:19.820 You never know.

00:24:20.420 It's a personal choice.

00:24:21.360 So just to move it forward, you wind up you're using a website, not 23andMe, not Ancestry.com called GEDmatch.

00:24:30.640 And my understanding is the way you populated this GEDmatch, because you point out you need as many samples on there as possible, is by encouraging people who are into this, who would like to connect with other relatives,

00:24:45.160 to take their 23andMe, their Ancestry.com results and upload them to GEDmatch and to widen the chances that they'll connect with somebody?

00:24:54.360 Right.

00:24:55.360 Right.

00:24:55.980 So GEDmatch was started by two friends of mine, Curtis Rogers and John Olson, back in 2010-11.

00:25:02.440 And of course, when it started, there was no one in there.

00:25:05.320 So we had to convince people to download their raw data from one of the other sites, which at the time was just 23andMe and FamilyTreeDNA, and upload to GEDmatch.

00:25:15.960 And so it was just a small site, kind of a playground for more advanced genetic genealogists.

00:25:22.040 It was where we could try out new tools.

00:25:24.420 We could do cross-company comparisons.

00:25:27.000 So if you tested at 23andMe and I tested at FamilyTreeDNA or later Ancestry, we could both upload there for free and then compare our data, looking for those long, identical, shared segments.

00:25:39.200 Hmm.

00:25:40.580 Okay.

00:25:41.120 Now, and by the way, the criminal database, you know, like if you get arrested for, I don't know how long it's been going on in America that they do a DNA test of you if you get arrested for a felony.

00:25:52.800 How long is, how long, do you know how long they've been doing that?

00:25:55.840 And are those results also uploaded to GEDmatch?

00:26:00.540 They are not.

00:26:01.400 So law enforcement has their own database, which is based on a different type of DNA marker than what we use in genealogy.

00:26:09.100 So they're not comparable.

00:26:11.100 They've been doing it for about, well, it depends what state and which jurisdiction.

00:26:16.240 So about 25 years.

00:26:17.920 Some started earlier.

00:26:19.660 I've helped identify two serial killers who were put to death in Texas in 1999, and neither of them were in the law enforcement database, which seems shocking to me.

00:26:29.840 But I've since learned that it was kind of hit and miss at first.

00:26:33.400 You know, it took some time to get it off the ground and get collect those samples from violent criminals.

00:26:40.120 And so here's what's crazy.

00:26:41.840 Yeah, here's what's crazy.

00:26:43.700 The and we're going to get to some of the cases that you've solved, but some of them are using DNA from crimes in the 70s, you know, and that's semen or blood or what have you.

00:26:54.600 And it really was very forward thinking of law enforcement back then before they had any idea what we'd be able to do in 2023 to save all that stuff in not sadly in every case, but in a lot of the cases making crime solving 50 years later possible.

00:27:15.980 Yeah, we owe them a huge debt of gratitude because they couldn't have possibly understood just how valuable that physical evidence was going to be.

00:27:25.940 I've actually worked cases back to 1958 now.

00:27:29.640 Whoa.

00:27:30.040 I mean, yeah, quite a bit before I was even born.

00:27:33.180 And so it's just amazing what can be done in those cases where the crime scene investigators were so forward thinking.

00:27:41.160 They collected things they couldn't have imagined how powerful they would be today.

00:27:46.040 How long does DNA stick around?

00:27:48.580 You know, like 58.

00:27:50.100 I mean, I think there's probably a hierarchy on the samples, right?

00:27:53.600 Like you'd rather have semen in a rape case than, I don't know, touch DNA.

00:28:00.420 You tell me.

00:28:01.020 But how long does it last?

00:28:04.720 Well, that's a really good question.

00:28:06.020 I mean, we can analyze ancient remains, right?

00:28:10.720 When they dig up some old royalty and things or accidentally run into the one end of the car park, there's still DNA there.

00:28:18.720 So it just depends on the environment, how something was stored or where somebody was buried as to how long that DNA will survive.

00:28:28.040 But it can survive for hundreds of years in some cases, even thousands.

00:28:32.800 I mean, look, they've been able to to analyze the genome from neanderthals.

00:28:38.800 So DNA lasts a very, very long time.

00:28:42.100 But it absolutely depends on the environment.

00:28:45.100 And so back to the crime fighting element of this.

00:28:47.020 So now you're getting more advanced.

00:28:48.820 You've got the new the GEDmatch, which is getting bigger and more useful.

00:28:53.340 And now can you just briefly describe how you do start filling in the tree, how it's become this is the tool that now that you're using to fight crime?

00:29:03.520 Yeah, let me also mention we have one other database that we can use with law enforcement, and that's family tree DNA.

00:29:09.940 The original pioneers of genetic genealogy decided that they wanted to help law enforcement as well.

00:29:16.780 Now, it is the smallest database, unfortunately, even though it was the first one, it's the smallest one.

00:29:23.960 And so the databases we can use are the two smallest in the field.

00:29:27.580 That's GEDmatch, which has about 1.5 million people in it, and family tree DNA that has about 1.25 million people in their autosomal DNA database.

00:29:37.000 They have three different databases.

00:29:39.340 How many in GEDmatch?

00:29:40.260 A GEDmatch has about 1.5 million, but only about a third of those are opted in to law enforcement matching.

00:29:48.540 So we can only use about 500,000 to identify violent criminals.

00:29:53.500 That's incredibly small.

00:29:55.680 I mean, I'm even more impressed that you've solved all these crimes with such a small sample size.

00:30:01.340 So, yes, it's like stepping back into 2014 when I was first trying to solve family mysteries, adoptions, and things like that.

00:30:10.500 It is very difficult.

00:30:12.200 It's very challenging.

00:30:13.220 So give us an actual example that's easy to understand of how you've used this to solve a crime.

00:30:20.340 So we get the unknown individual's DNA from the crime scene.

00:30:24.900 It might be semen, blood, saliva, even touch DNA, and we have to send that to a private lab.

00:30:32.500 So none of the crime labs have the capability to create the type of DNA profile that we need.

00:30:38.080 The law enforcement databases, as I mentioned, are based on a type of genetic marker called an STR, single nucleotide.

00:30:46.200 I'm sorry, single tandem repeat.

00:30:49.260 And we use SNPs, which is a totally different type of genetic marker, a single nucleotide polymorphism.

00:30:57.260 And so we have to start from scratch.

00:30:59.760 And that means there has to be DNA left from that crime scene.

00:31:03.340 If they've used it all up, then we cannot do genetic genealogy.

00:31:07.780 So it goes to a private lab where it is analyzed.

00:31:11.200 And just like they would analyze it at, say, AncestryDNA or 23andMe, we need it to be compatible with those profiles because that's the type of profiles we're going to compare against.

00:31:22.080 So it's about 700,000 to 800,000 genetic markers across the genome.

00:31:26.840 And then it goes to our bioinformaticists, our scientists.

00:31:30.280 Now, because these are degraded, mixed, contaminated samples, these are not like if you spit in a tube and you have this perfect DNA sample.

00:31:38.520 These are non-optimal samples.

00:31:41.600 And so we need something called bioinformatics, which we have an amazing scientist, Dr. Ellen Gray-Tack and Dr. Ellen Katie, sorry, Dr. Janet Katie, it's Paravon, that work with that degraded DNA to try to repair it and make it as similar to a file as if you and I were to spit in a tube and mail it in.

00:32:02.520 Once we have that, we upload it to GEDmatch and or Family Tree DNA.

00:32:06.680 It's compared against all the people there that are opted into law enforcement matching.

00:32:12.100 And we get a list of matches.

00:32:14.000 Now, those matches are typically going to be really distant relatives.

00:32:18.400 And that's because these are really small databases we're working with.

00:32:21.640 So the chance of a close relative of a suspect are very small.

00:32:25.880 So we're lucky if we get a second cousin or a few second cousins, sometimes closer, but mostly we're working with third, fourth, fifth, sixth cousins and beyond.

00:32:36.240 And we can predict what the likely relationships are based on how much DNA someone is sharing with that unknown person.

00:32:43.640 Hmm. You can see the percentage.

00:32:46.280 OK, so this is fascinating.

00:32:47.580 And then you draw the family tree.

00:32:48.720 So you've got a sixth cousin.

00:32:50.460 You've got to start drawing a family tree.

00:32:51.780 And this is actually funny for me because I know who my sixth cousin is, or at least one of them.

00:32:56.220 And it's somebody famous.

00:32:59.320 That's the reason I know, because somebody actually did the family tree.

00:33:02.260 We're like, oh, my God, we're related to her.

00:33:04.700 It's Loretta Swit, hot lips, hula hand.

00:33:08.820 You're around my age, so I know you know who that is, of MASH fame.

00:33:12.560 So she and I are related.

00:33:13.720 It was so fun.

00:33:14.380 She did a Barnes and Noble book signing up on the Upper West Side when I lived there.

00:33:17.880 And I popped in and told her we were long lost cousins.

00:33:22.020 She was she could not have been nicer.

00:33:23.920 But anyway, so let's say I committed a crime, but you didn't know it was me.

00:33:27.680 And Loretta had updated or had uploaded her DNA to GEDmatch.

00:33:31.920 So now you're looking for me.

00:33:33.260 You don't know it's me, but you find Loretta Swit is the sixth cousin of this person.

00:33:37.720 And you start doing these concentric circles around her, right?

00:33:40.660 You just start to do like, who are all the people she's related to and her aunts and uncles are

00:33:45.700 related to and you got to that's so much work to finally get to the possibles.

00:33:51.240 So there's a little bit more efficient way to do it, which is I'll say, OK, who's not who's

00:33:55.800 I've got the list of who's sharing DNA with the suspect, but who on that list shares DNA

00:34:01.200 with each other?

00:34:02.500 That's really important.

00:34:04.280 So it's not just who's sharing with the suspect, but who is sharing with other people on that

00:34:09.040 list.

00:34:09.560 So say matches one, three and five share DNA with each other.

00:34:13.500 If I can build all their family trees, I should be able to identify their common ancestor.

00:34:19.500 The only reason two people would share these identical segments of DNA is if they inherited

00:34:24.640 them from somebody in the past, they have to have common ancestry.

00:34:29.520 And so if I can identify where that DNA comes from, who's which of the great, great grandparents

00:34:35.520 are further back, then that gives me one piece of my unknown person's tree.

00:34:41.780 And so there I create what's called genetic networks.

00:34:45.920 I'll group the matches into networks of people that are sharing DNA with each other or clusters.

00:34:52.600 And each of those clusters will represent one branch of the unknown person's family tree.

00:34:58.560 So we start piecing it back together that way.

00:35:01.380 Maybe I'll have one set of great, great grandparents, one set of great, great, great grandparents.

00:35:06.580 Maybe if I'm lucky, I can identify great grandparents.

00:35:09.960 And then I have to find that one person or set of siblings that is related to all of those

00:35:15.260 matches and descended from those sets of ancestors.

00:35:18.960 So it's like reverse engineering someone's family tree and eventually their identity based

00:35:25.240 on their ancestors.

00:35:27.620 And then do you get to the step of let's take the Idaho murders where it's like, OK, I know

00:35:35.500 it it could be, you know, somebody in this cluster or this cluster or this cluster.

00:35:40.920 But, hey, there's a guy in this cluster who lives within 10 miles of the murder site.

00:35:44.460 Like, do you do you use evidence like that to help narrow it down or you're only in the,

00:35:49.780 you know, genetic genealogy field?

00:35:52.660 It depends how much data you have.

00:35:54.800 If you have enough matches that you can connect to someone's mother's side and their father's

00:35:59.580 side, maybe three or even four of their grandparents lines, you can narrow it down to just one immediate

00:36:05.260 family.

00:36:05.940 But because these databases are so small, we often don't have that.

00:36:10.100 So say we could only identify one set of his great grandparents or great, great grandparents.

00:36:16.100 In that case, we would have to then do what's called reverse genealogy, identify all of their

00:36:21.620 descendants and look for their descendants who are the right gender, age range, maybe live

00:36:28.960 in the right area, drive a white car.

00:36:32.300 And so we do look at those other things.

00:36:34.400 And that's something I think a lot of people don't realize is that with investigative genetic

00:36:39.620 genealogy, the DNA just gets us started without someone's family tree.

00:36:45.300 It's meaningless without trying to being able to identify the descendants of the common ancestors

00:36:50.960 we identify.

00:36:51.840 It's meaningless.

00:36:53.020 So we're looking at location.

00:36:55.260 Location is huge.

00:36:56.440 We look for the one branch of the tree that maybe moved closer to the crime scene.

00:36:59.940 And 99% of the time, we find someone who lived right there within 10, 20 miles, sometimes

00:37:07.200 within one mile.

00:37:09.060 And so that's a really powerful part of it.

00:37:11.360 And then we use phenotyping at Parabon where they can predict eye color, hair color, skin

00:37:16.460 color, even shape face.

00:37:18.860 And so we use a lot of different factors to narrow it down further when there isn't enough

00:37:24.800 in the database to point us at just one person or one family.

00:37:28.340 And that phenom time, that's very interesting because that's something you can do even if

00:37:34.740 there's no match, right?

00:37:36.140 Like if you get DNA and you run it through GEDmatch and there's just nothing, like nothing

00:37:40.320 comes up, the DNA is still useful to you.

00:37:43.760 That's right.

00:37:44.660 So we don't have many families or individuals in GEDmatch or family tree DNA that are recent

00:37:51.680 immigrants.

00:37:52.080 And so it's really difficult to identify someone if they were born in another country or their

00:37:58.380 parents or even grandparents or great grandparents were.

00:38:02.360 And so there are some cases where it's not viable to perform genetic genealogy, but Parabon

00:38:08.580 can still perform the phenotyping and still create this image of what someone might look

00:38:14.740 like.

00:38:15.040 Now, it's not meant to be photographic, but it's meant to give you their traits.

00:38:18.800 And so it is used in quite a few cases where there just aren't enough matches, aren't enough

00:38:24.460 data for genetic genealogy.

00:38:28.400 But what I have found is where it's most powerful is in conjunction with each other.

00:38:33.460 So maybe I narrow it down to 10 males who all descend from these common ancestors.

00:38:38.640 And then I can look which ones have blue eyes, brown eyes, which ones have blonde hair, maybe

00:38:43.560 red hair, and that can really help to narrow it down because we want to give as few people

00:38:50.020 as possible.

00:38:50.600 Right.

00:38:50.940 We want this to be efficient and we want to keep innocent people out of these investigations.

00:38:55.760 So I work very hard to try to narrow things down using all different types of information.

00:39:01.160 So I'm not sending law enforcement on a wild goose chase and sending them after innocent

00:39:05.960 individuals.

00:39:07.040 The moral of the story is don't leave your DNA to crime scene.

00:39:09.640 Don't leave it.

00:39:10.160 Even if you're not in the system, even if nobody you know is in a system, CeCe Moore is

00:39:14.220 going to get you.

00:39:15.040 All right.

00:39:15.340 Stand by.

00:39:15.940 I got to squeeze in a break.

00:39:16.860 There's so much to discuss.

00:39:18.000 And I want to pick up the Idaho case because they're saying that this was used to catch Brian

00:39:21.740 Kohlberger.

00:39:22.580 We'll talk about it next.

00:39:26.920 Let's talk about Idaho.

00:39:28.240 This is, of course, on everybody's minds.

00:39:29.780 And they have reported there have been reports that genetic genealogy was used in nabbing

00:39:35.600 this suspected killer.

00:39:36.960 Brian Kohlberger, 28 years old, 10 miles away from the murder site, pursuing his Ph.D.

00:39:42.420 in criminology at the University of Washington, the four victims from the University of Idaho.

00:39:46.400 They have only told us so far that DNA was detected on one button of the knife sheath that they

00:39:57.000 tell us in the supporting affidavit for the warrant for arrest was found next to one of

00:40:02.460 the victims, one button on a knife sheath.

00:40:06.680 So that's kind of interesting.

00:40:09.500 It's kind of surprising.

00:40:10.440 I would think that I would think there'd be more DNA at this site.

00:40:14.460 So what does it tell you that there's there's zeroing in, first of all, on just that one

00:40:18.780 little button, as opposed to on the body of the four victims, on the bedpost, on the door

00:40:24.280 handles, right?

00:40:25.400 What does it tell you?

00:40:26.820 Well, I think that he went to great lengths to not leave DNA.

00:40:30.580 He likely had gloves on.

00:40:32.540 He was, you know, educated about this.

00:40:36.000 You would think he certainly would have made sure he wasn't leaving DNA behind, but he

00:40:41.700 must have handled that knife sheath earlier when he didn't have gloves on.

00:40:46.520 That's my guess.

00:40:47.940 But I also want to point out that they don't have to reveal everything they have in the

00:40:52.100 affidavit.

00:40:52.700 And you know that, of course.

00:40:54.420 And so I think it's very possible they have additional DNA.

00:40:57.740 And even if they didn't, they might buy now because I'm sure they've been going through

00:41:01.800 all of that physical evidence batch by batch, sending that to the Idaho crime lab and trying

00:41:07.660 to detect any additional DNA.

00:41:09.760 So I don't think we'll really know what they have until this case progresses.

00:41:14.540 And hopefully they will find more DNA or already have.

00:41:18.360 It might be more complex, meaning there might be mixtures of blood.

00:41:23.080 Cases I've worked where there was a frenzied stabbing, almost always the knife has slipped

00:41:28.340 and cut the suspect as well.

00:41:30.600 But then you have a mixture and you might even have a mixture of three people in this

00:41:35.320 case.

00:41:36.060 Maybe you have his blood plus two of the victim's blood, for instance, and they have to do what's

00:41:41.580 called deconvolution, where they extract out the victim's DNA and are left with just that

00:41:49.000 suspect's DNA.

00:41:50.560 And so it's possible that that could have taken more time, which is possibly why they were

00:41:55.260 focusing on this knife sheath for the affidavit.

00:41:59.300 I imagine that was touch DNA.

00:42:00.700 They say that what was found on that button was single source male DNA.

00:42:05.820 So what does that mean?

00:42:08.080 It means there was just one DNA contributor.

00:42:10.240 So that's a much more straightforward DNA sample than if they have a mixture otherwise,

00:42:16.240 which could be why they focused on that for the affidavit, because it's the most straightforward.

00:42:21.140 Now, that was likely touch DNA, unless he happened to leave a little bit of blood on that.

00:42:26.660 But I would guess it's touch DNA.

00:42:28.740 And that is just a few skin cells, most likely.

00:42:31.740 So that's not very much DNA.

00:42:33.360 And that really illustrates how far technology has come.

00:42:38.520 So what.

00:42:40.020 You know, my my feeling as a lawyer in discussing this case is if I'm the defense and best case

00:42:46.560 scenario for Brian Kohlberger, that's all the DNA they have of his at the scene, I'm thinking

00:42:52.000 I'm good because maybe Brian Kohlberger went to the store wherever they sold that knife

00:42:58.240 in the sheath and he touched it, he picked it up and it was still left on there.

00:43:01.960 So how long does one's touch DNA last?

00:43:06.420 You know, that'll be relevant.

00:43:08.640 It will be.

00:43:09.100 And I agree with you.

00:43:10.740 Touch DNA is not the optimal DNA sample that you would want to have in this case.

00:43:15.180 Let's hope maybe it was a drop of blood instead.

00:43:17.620 And I'm wrong about my supposition that it was touch DNA.

00:43:20.820 But I think that the prosecution can argue that if he had handled it, then somebody else

00:43:27.420 would have had to have handled it.

00:43:28.900 And their DNA should also be on there.

00:43:31.060 And you would see a mixture or you would see their their DNA as the primary DNA.

00:43:35.720 Now, they can certainly argue that maybe the next person to handle it wore gloves and they

00:43:40.440 were trying to set him up.

00:43:41.580 So they transported it to the crime scene and left it there.

00:43:45.180 So I do think there is some room for argument there.

00:43:48.160 And it's very fortunate that they have other evidence.

00:43:51.140 And that's really important because DNA, as you well know, should not be the only evidence

00:43:56.560 in a case.

00:43:57.320 You certainly hope they will be able to support it with other types of evidence.

00:44:02.380 This is I mean, we're going to get into this on our legal panel tomorrow, but this is why

00:44:07.760 all the surveillance tape of the car and so on is relevant.

00:44:09.960 But I will say not a it's not open and shut.

00:44:15.060 It's definitely not open and shut.

00:44:16.340 There's all sorts of things around that crime scene.

00:44:18.160 There's a Walmart.

00:44:19.000 There's a 24 seven grocery store.

00:44:21.780 You know, my family's lawyer.

00:44:23.380 I'm going to say that's why he was over there.

00:44:24.860 That's why you see him going by there.

00:44:26.280 He's an insomniac.

00:44:27.320 His old neighbor testified to that testified, but said it to reporters.

00:44:31.920 In any event, we'll get into that tomorrow.

00:44:34.040 But wouldn't there be if there was touch DNA on the button, Cece, wouldn't there be typically

00:44:39.280 touch DNA on the rest of the knife sheath?

00:44:41.860 Well, not if he wiped it down or I think the knife sheath was leather.

00:44:46.620 It's maybe less likely to retain that touch DNA than the button.

00:44:52.140 It's touch DNA.

00:44:53.400 You know, it's it's transferable.

00:44:55.080 It's easy to wipe away.

00:44:56.820 You can shake someone's hand and you get their touch DNA on your hand and you can then transfer

00:45:02.420 it to a different item.

00:45:04.120 And so it is more, you know, transitory or transferable and it's harder to detect.

00:45:11.860 So I'm not sure they would find it on the the leather.

00:45:15.740 And also he might have wiped that down.

00:45:18.040 I mean, I'm surprised he didn't wipe the whole thing down.

00:45:20.280 Yeah, so I might have forgotten about the button.

00:45:22.320 So if they found and we don't know what the order of events was, we don't know if they

00:45:25.760 found the white Hyundai Elantra and linked it to Brian Kohlberger or if they got onto him

00:45:30.320 from this touch DNA.

00:45:31.500 But if it was the latter, they have a couple of let's say it's touch DNA, a couple of skin

00:45:36.480 cells that the lab tech sees miraculously and good for him or her.

00:45:40.460 And they run them into their law enforcement database first, I would assume.

00:45:45.640 Let's say there's no hits.

00:45:46.640 As far as we know, there was some sort of well, I don't know that like Brian Kohlberger

00:45:50.940 doesn't have a criminal record as far as we know.

00:45:52.560 Right.

00:45:52.700 I don't know that his father or anybody else does.

00:45:55.160 So then what?

00:45:56.520 Where do they go from there?

00:45:57.880 Well, there had to be enough DNA extracted by the Idaho Crime Lab that they were able to

00:46:03.040 split that and send some of it to the private lab that would have created the genetic genealogy

00:46:08.220 profile.

00:46:08.840 And so there must have been, you know, enough, but even that could be a tiny amount.

00:46:14.800 So they would have created their profile, their law enforcement court admissible profile at

00:46:19.840 the crime lab and then sent out what was remaining to a private lab.

00:46:24.680 They would reanalyze it from scratch and create that genetic genealogy profile, which I believe

00:46:30.520 was likely sent back to the FBI investigative genetic genealogy team.

00:46:35.060 So I think it's very likely they did the genetic genealogy in-house.

00:46:39.280 We saw how closely involved the FBI was in this case, and they've been training agents

00:46:44.080 all over the country since you and I met to do this work.

00:46:48.400 So for almost five years, the FBI has been training their agents to do it.

00:46:53.020 I suspect strongly they kept this in-house, but they would have had to use a private lab

00:46:57.500 to create that profile.

00:46:59.660 Okay.

00:46:59.860 So that's, and I want to ask you what you mean by create that profile.

00:47:02.760 If you mean, I'm going to take a break, but if you mean create the, this is what the

00:47:06.700 suspect looks like or create the, he's got relatives and here they are.

00:47:11.100 We're going to pick that question up right after this break.

00:47:13.420 Love going through it line by line, because it's really fascinating and it's absolutely

00:47:17.120 going to dominate the news cycle over the next year as we go to that preliminary hearing.

00:47:20.540 And then ultimately the trial CC Moore stays with us on this and other cases coming up.

00:47:25.000 And remember folks, you can find the Megan Kelly show live on Sirius XM triumph channel

00:47:28.940 one 11 every weekday at noon East full video show at youtube.com slash Megan Kelly, along

00:47:34.100 with clips, audio podcast, wherever you get your podcasts for free, go check it out at

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00:47:40.840 And there, if you go, you will find our full archives with more than 465 shows in the feed.

00:47:48.280 Fascinating stuff.

00:47:48.880 So CC, the question we left lingering before we went to break was if they get, um, let's

00:47:57.440 say it's touch DNA, some skin cells from the button of that sheath, and they don't get a

00:48:02.620 hit in the criminal database, uh, then they send it most likely to a private lab and come

00:48:08.400 up with a profile.

00:48:09.580 And my question to you was, do you, are you, do you mean the kind of profile that they say,

00:48:13.780 well, it looks like he has brown eyes and brown hair and is about, you know, this descent

00:48:17.780 or the kind of profile that says, here's his dad?

00:48:21.420 Actually, neither.

00:48:22.060 It is a profile of genetic markers somewhere between probably 500,000 and a million genetic

00:48:29.040 markers of those SNPs, those single nucleotide polymorphisms that I mentioned earlier.

00:48:34.820 And so it doesn't tell you anything on its own.

00:48:37.620 It's only going to give you important information if you either compare it against others, their

00:48:44.080 own genetic files or, uh, phenotyping.

00:48:48.360 Now I have no information that they performed phenotyping in this case.

00:48:51.720 I don't think they did because they didn't work with Parabon and they're really the ones

00:48:55.400 doing that work.

00:48:56.360 So they would have created that SNP profile that looks just like if you spit in a tube

00:49:02.340 at Ancestry or 23andMe and mailed that in and got your own raw data file.

00:49:06.840 All right.

00:49:08.300 So that, but if they don't have a hit in the database, you know, in, in any database, private

00:49:13.480 or otherwise to connect the DNA to, then they're at a luck unless they can zero in on a particular

00:49:21.260 source of DNA and do a comparison, right?

00:49:24.520 Right.

00:49:25.120 And so you're always going to get matches in the genetic genealogy database, but if they're

00:49:30.000 way too distant, if it's too small amount of shared DNA, then you're not going to be

00:49:34.780 able to perform genetic genealogy on it.

00:49:37.600 So everyone has matches, but maybe not close enough matches.

00:49:42.000 And then you're right.

00:49:42.780 If you could not use genetic genealogy to point toward that suspect, they would have to try

00:49:48.600 to find him in other ways and then collect his DNA or a close relative's DNA and compare

00:49:54.640 it against that original profile that was created by the crime lab.

00:49:59.040 We don't know what results they had if, and when they ran it through the private lab.

00:50:03.520 We don't know whether somebody in Kohlberger's family had given DNA, had uploaded DNA.

00:50:07.760 We just don't know the answer to that yet.

00:50:09.840 We are told that they collected a sample of garbage outside of Brian Kohlberger's father's

00:50:16.900 home.

00:50:17.500 He went back and stayed with his mother and father from December 15th forward to the day

00:50:22.460 of his arrest, December 30th after his cross country tour with his dad.

00:50:27.360 I mean, ride home.

00:50:28.520 By the way, latest reporting is that the FBI was tailing him as of that date, still denying

00:50:33.600 that they were behind those two traffic stops in Indiana.

00:50:35.960 But the FBI now CBS reporting was tailing him and was tailing him via, you know, the

00:50:42.700 easy pass.

00:50:43.600 And they said fixed wing aircraft.

00:50:45.520 So possible there was an aircraft following him fixed wing would mean not a helicopter

00:50:51.640 and through other means.

00:50:55.000 So they were on to him by December 15th, according to this report.

00:50:58.440 So they go to the dad's house and they're they say that they got the garbage outside of

00:51:03.480 the Kohlberger house and that there was a match to the dad.

00:51:07.220 In other words, they had DNA.

00:51:10.160 They compared it with the DNA from the knife sheath button.

00:51:15.020 And what they were able to tell was with ninety nine point nine nine nine six accuracy.

00:51:21.400 This DNA on this knife knife sheath belongs to.

00:51:27.260 The father of the killer.

00:51:29.040 Do I have that right?

00:51:30.820 Right.

00:51:31.020 And so this is pretty common when investigative genetic genealogy has pointed law enforcement

00:51:36.680 toward a certain individual or family and they'll do what's called a trash pull.

00:51:41.560 If they can't just follow that person and pick something up that they dropped, then they'll

00:51:45.640 typically resort to waiting for that person to put their trash out on the curb.

00:51:49.840 And most states allow this.

00:51:51.480 It's considered abandoned at that point.

00:51:53.600 And then they go through the trash and try to find an item that might have DNA on it.

00:51:58.400 But when it's a home like this, a household where there's multiple people, they don't

00:52:02.240 know exactly whose DNA they're going to get.

00:52:04.860 So in this case, they found a male sample of DNA and tested it.

00:52:08.800 And it wasn't the suspects.

00:52:10.700 However, they were able to perform what is basically a standard paternity test comparison

00:52:16.080 to the profile from the button on the sheath and determined that that individual's DNA from

00:52:23.280 the trash was the father of the individual who left his DNA behind at the crime scene.

00:52:28.400 Hmm.

00:52:29.240 How certain do you think they'd be?

00:52:31.980 I mean, they're saying 99.99%.

00:52:33.180 Like, how solid is that?

00:52:35.620 Well, it's been accepted in courts for decades to establish paternity.

00:52:39.800 It is extremely confident, as we saw by the number 99.999, 8%.

00:52:46.160 So that means that there's basically no one else on Earth that could be the father of that

00:52:52.520 individual.

00:52:53.780 Hmm.

00:52:54.480 Okay.

00:52:54.800 So the real challenge for the defense lawyers is to say, oh, not I mean, they will try to

00:52:58.840 say wrong.

00:52:59.820 It wasn't him.

00:53:01.120 You know, you messed it up.

00:53:02.740 You did something wrong at the lab.

00:53:04.400 Your lab procedures are faulty.

00:53:06.040 But the best line of argument is probably we don't know how that got there.

00:53:11.600 Now, by this point, that would become irrelevant because they would have collected his DNA upon

00:53:16.220 arrest and done the direct comparison, the one to one against that court admissible genetic

00:53:22.720 profile that is the one they originally compared against the law enforcement databases.

00:53:27.500 Once they got the one to one match, the paternity match wouldn't matter anymore.

00:53:31.220 Or any genetic genealogy that was done previously would all become irrelevant because they'd have

00:53:36.780 that one to one match.

00:53:38.320 And that's when we hear those numbers like one in 300 trillion chance that it's anyone

00:53:43.180 else in the world.

00:53:44.840 Mm hmm.

00:53:45.180 And then still, but my comment stands out because the defense lawyers would be faced

00:53:48.800 with saying, yes, well, that had that DNA.

00:53:51.680 First of all, your testing stinks.

00:53:53.620 They'll attack the testing.

00:53:54.980 Remember, OJ, they'll still attack it.

00:53:57.060 Barry Sheck, all that.

00:53:59.560 But then they'll also just say, even if it's if it's correct, we don't know how that got

00:54:03.080 there.

00:54:03.320 Maybe maybe Brian Kohlberger touched that knife in a store that sheath in a store.

00:54:07.760 Then the killer bought it, used gloves, never touched it.

00:54:10.340 It is interesting, like this guy is a criminology student.

00:54:14.020 He may have been wearing gloves.

00:54:15.480 He may have been suspicious that somebody was telling him and be and watched what he

00:54:21.040 threw out in his because now that we know the FBI was on to him and following him, I

00:54:25.060 mean, they identified the car as of November 29th as his.

00:54:28.320 And from that point forward, who knows?

00:54:30.180 Maybe they were waiting for him to throw something away and he wasn't wasn't until he got back

00:54:33.220 home.

00:54:33.460 And there's one report he moved the trash from his dad's house over to the neighbors.

00:54:37.780 Right.

00:54:38.100 OK, right.

00:54:38.860 Yeah.

00:54:39.680 And I want to circle back around to something when we talked about whether there was any

00:54:43.780 other DNA left behind.

00:54:45.240 When I first learned he was a criminology student, I thought he would have suited up like Dexter,

00:54:49.900 you know, to make sure he didn't leave any DNA behind.

00:54:52.400 But we know from the eyewitness, the roommate DM statement that she was able to see at least

00:54:58.040 his eyebrows.

00:54:59.220 And she said he had bushy eyebrows, which means he didn't cover them.

00:55:02.500 And the mask that she has described is, like you said, just one we would wear for COVID.

00:55:07.280 It doesn't sound like he had his whole head covered.

00:55:10.560 Now, there's quotes going around that I said his head wasn't covered.

00:55:14.080 I didn't say that.

00:55:15.000 I just said if he didn't cover his eyebrows, maybe he didn't cover his hair.

00:55:19.660 And if he didn't, you know, there's it's very likely he left a hair behind.

00:55:24.360 Even an eyebrow hair could have been left behind.

00:55:26.840 Is it likely?

00:55:27.520 How likely is that?

00:55:28.700 Like, are the eyebrows?

00:55:29.720 Are they falling out all the time?

00:55:32.140 Yeah.

00:55:32.540 I mean, we lose hair all the time, all the time.

00:55:35.180 And we've even seen one single hair from someone's leg be able to be traced back.

00:55:41.240 And that is really because of advanced technology.

00:55:43.920 It used to be that you couldn't use hair for this type of purpose.

00:55:47.240 But only in the last couple of years have we been able to do so.

00:55:50.980 I've actually helped.

00:55:51.640 Does it have to have the root on it?

00:55:53.360 You know, does it have to be like pulled out by the root?

00:55:55.260 So, no, thanks to the brilliant Dr. Ed Green from UC Santa Cruz, it doesn't have to have

00:56:01.280 the root anymore.

00:56:02.060 That's what's so exciting.

00:56:03.420 And it's opened up a lot more cases for us to work.

00:56:06.660 I was able to help identify the killer of a kindergartner using rootless hair and also

00:56:13.480 another murder that hasn't been announced yet.

00:56:16.200 And so I've been able to use just a single hair thanks to Dr. Ed Green's amazing technology.

00:56:22.140 He's, you know, their lab is the one that is processing that and creating that profile for

00:56:28.020 me to use.

00:56:28.760 So without these brilliant scientists, we wouldn't be able to even do what I do.

00:56:33.700 Have you ever seen a murder, Cece, that's this up close and violent at which there was

00:56:38.800 no DNA left behind?

00:56:40.880 No, and that's why I was opining early on.

00:56:43.360 I just couldn't imagine him not leaving DNA behind because it's such a violent crime scene.

00:56:48.020 He stabbed four people multiple times and the chances of either the knife not slipping

00:56:55.320 and cutting him or one of those victims fighting back and potentially getting his DNA under their

00:57:00.280 fingernails or just dropping a single hair seems highly unlikely to me.

00:57:05.980 So I guess, you know, time will tell, but I think it's something that people need to think

00:57:10.440 about.

00:57:10.860 If you are, you know, considering perpetrating this type of intimate violent crime, you will

00:57:17.020 leave DNA behind no matter how hard you try.

00:57:20.340 I mean, Brian was clearly educated about this, and yet he still left his DNA behind.

00:57:26.240 Now, I will say people are talking about how smart he was.

00:57:28.640 I don't think he was the sharpest tool in the shed.

00:57:30.540 It does not sound like he planned this out nearly as well as we would expect from a PhD

00:57:36.200 student in criminology.

00:57:38.440 But, you know, it's just virtually impossible not to leave your DNA behind in this type of

00:57:44.180 frenzied, very intimate, violent attack.

00:57:47.500 Hmm.

00:57:48.140 You know, there's speculation online that he posted under different names commenting on

00:57:54.060 this crime.

00:57:54.960 And we don't know that it was him.

00:57:56.820 Uh, but there, there is one posting under this suspected name again, unconfirmed in which

00:58:03.420 he talks about the sheath of the knife, trying to find it here.

00:58:07.160 Uh, it's by somebody named inside looking and the post under that guy's name, it was all

00:58:13.700 about the Idaho murders, this Facebook, Facebook group where they were, they were discussing it.

00:58:17.880 And one of the many things he posted this inside looking was of the evidence released, the murder

00:58:24.600 weapon has been consistent as a large fixed blade knife.

00:58:28.840 This leads me to believe they found the sheath.

00:58:32.160 My God, that's just, I mean, my God, like who that doesn't lead anyone other than the killer

00:58:39.760 to believe that, like who would go there?

00:58:42.320 So I've been a member of that group from early days.

00:58:46.100 I've been following this case from, I think the very first day it happened or the day we

00:58:49.660 found out about it.

00:58:51.020 Uh, I, I don't know what to think about that.

00:58:54.320 You know, I mean, there's a lot of speculation, but that was something that really does make

00:58:59.740 it seem like this person had some inside information, or it was just a really good guess.

00:59:05.320 I've read both sides of the argument.

00:59:07.060 Who would say they found the sheath, right?

00:59:08.400 You'd say they looked at the wounds and determined that, I mean, that's a, that's a, I I'm sort

00:59:15.640 of on the side that it very possibly was him, but you know, like I said, it's all speculation,

00:59:22.180 but I'm well for us.

00:59:23.200 Right.

00:59:23.360 But the law enforcement knows they know by now whether that was him because now they've,

00:59:26.680 yeah, that's a good point.

00:59:27.660 They have a search warrant for his home, uh, in Washington state where he was living and

00:59:32.140 going to school.

00:59:32.740 And that now that's been sealed.

00:59:34.440 They're not allowing us access to it for now, although they say in March, we may get it.

00:59:37.500 Um, they've, they've searched all of this.

00:59:40.700 They're going to have record.

00:59:41.260 You can't keep that stuff a secret.

00:59:42.960 So they'll know.

00:59:43.760 And that would be great evidence too.

00:59:45.500 You mentioned, um, you know, the victims were likely to fight there.

00:59:48.780 They, they say there were defensive wounds on the victims.

00:59:51.840 So they did, they did fight, you know, that's, what's one of the things that's so crazy about

00:59:55.520 it is then why didn't anybody hear anything?

00:59:57.260 Where were the screams?

00:59:58.100 You know, why weren't they, you know, just the, they have the one roommate who lived,

01:00:03.280 who wasn't attacked saying, I heard what sounded like crying coming from one of the

01:00:07.300 rooms, but crying is not exactly consistent with being brutally stabbed to death next to

01:00:13.840 either your boyfriend or your friend.

01:00:16.240 So many questions still to be answered, but those defensive wounds could prove very important

01:00:20.460 on the DNA front.

01:00:21.300 Mm-hmm.

01:00:23.260 Right.

01:00:23.740 I agree.

01:00:24.120 I think when you're fighting for your life, you're conserving your energy.

01:00:29.420 Possibly they didn't scream, you know, maybe they were just focused on trying to survive

01:00:34.080 and focused on trying to fight him off without yelling or something that would have been heard

01:00:39.180 by the roommates.

01:00:40.980 God, so horrific to think about.

01:00:44.140 They, um, just on Friday, right.

01:00:47.280 This crime happened in November 13th.

01:00:49.780 The arrest was December 30th.

01:00:52.240 Here we are.

01:00:53.020 July 12th is today, uh, January 12th.

01:00:55.500 Um, they were seen just this past Friday, the 6th, taking two bloody mattresses out of

01:01:03.200 the crime scene, along with a bed frame and a box, which is strange to me.

01:01:08.800 I don't know why the bloody mattresses were still there.

01:01:11.700 I'm sure they've done some analysis on them prior to now, but in your experience of DNA

01:01:16.440 analysis, like how would it be collected?

01:01:19.160 Would they have done like a scraping of the mattress on, let's say day one, and then maybe

01:01:24.300 this is a more in-depth look or what do you make of that?

01:01:27.960 Yeah, I thought it was very odd as well.

01:01:29.980 And particularly since the judge had, I thought, frozen the crime scene until February 1st,

01:01:35.380 I believe.

01:01:35.840 So it must have been either the defense or the prosecution taking that away.

01:01:42.480 Some people were saying maybe it was the roommates, the surviving roommates' bed, but I think you

01:01:47.560 could clearly see that there was a blood stain on one of those mattresses.

01:01:52.580 I think they would have swabbed it.

01:01:54.060 Now, of course there were sheets, right?

01:01:55.240 They would have collected the sheets first and maybe a mattress pad.

01:01:58.020 They would have swabbed it.

01:01:59.340 Sometimes they'll cut things out.

01:02:01.640 I don't know if they would do that on a mattress or not, but they are probably putting that

01:02:06.560 mattress into storage and for future testing or maybe even to use in the courtroom.

01:02:12.280 So we've been very focused on finding his DNA at the crime scene.

01:02:16.200 But there's another lane here, which is finding the victim's DNA on anything related to him.

01:02:25.080 What do you think the odds are of that, right?

01:02:27.880 Understanding, OK, he covered up, but like, I'm sorry, he's not superhuman.

01:02:32.500 There would be blood on his clothes.

01:02:34.240 There would be.

01:02:35.140 We don't know what he did with the clothes.

01:02:36.520 We know they're going to analyze the route he took home, which is reportedly a little odd.

01:02:40.840 It's not this straight, direct line back to his apartment.

01:02:43.080 I'm sure they've poured over every inch of it looking for anything that's been discarded,

01:02:48.000 but they seized his car, right?

01:02:50.620 They're going to be tearing that.

01:02:51.620 Like, what are the odds, Cece, in your experience of finding the victim's DNA someplace around him

01:02:59.040 if he, in fact, committed this crime?

01:03:01.460 I think it's extremely high.

01:03:03.160 Like you've pointed out, he would have had to have been covered in their DNA.

01:03:07.360 And then he must have gotten in that car still in those clothes.

01:03:10.820 I don't think he's stripped down there on that street.

01:03:13.940 And so you cannot clean that completely out of a car, even though we know he took great

01:03:19.480 effort cleaning that car based on reports.

01:03:21.900 There still would be DNA left behind, very likely blood, maybe hair, and maybe even transferred

01:03:28.760 into his home, right?

01:03:30.340 When he went into his home, he might have brought some of that with him as well.

01:03:34.400 So I think there's a good chance they'll be able to tie the victims, one or more of the

01:03:40.200 victim's DNA to his property, his car or his home.

01:03:45.020 That's key right there.

01:03:45.900 Even if he was meticulous, other than leaving the knife sheath behind at the crime scene,

01:03:52.560 there's no, there's just four people were murdered up close by a knife.

01:03:57.660 There's no way he wouldn't have their DNA on him.

01:04:00.520 And now that we have our suspect, you know, most of that battle is just knowing who to

01:04:06.160 whose car to search, whose apartment to search, whose computer to search.

01:04:09.700 They figured that out thanks to the button and thanks to the surveillance of the white

01:04:14.100 Hyundai Elantra.

01:04:15.180 So that's very promising for law enforcement.

01:04:17.620 I wanted to ask you, could this would they would this case have looked very different to

01:04:23.360 you had it happened 15, 20 years ago?

01:04:27.660 Yes, some of the detectives I've worked with have told me that they don't need me to perform

01:04:33.260 investigative genetic genealogy on many of their cases, their active cases, because they

01:04:38.420 have so much technological evidence.

01:04:40.940 They have cell phone data.

01:04:42.740 They have computer data.

01:04:44.320 They have GPS data.

01:04:45.800 And so that is going to be a huge part of this case.

01:04:49.720 And like, we don't know, of course, if the car was what first led them to identify him or

01:04:56.680 the genetic genealogy, but also just having computerized systems where you can search cars,

01:05:03.020 you know, who owns cars.

01:05:04.360 When we go back to the cold cases, we often are not able to find that information.

01:05:09.560 It just doesn't exist.

01:05:11.000 It didn't make it into the digital age.

01:05:12.940 And so the whole method of crime solving of investigation has advanced to such a degree

01:05:20.100 that it's already extremely difficult to get away with a crime like this, even without

01:05:24.540 the addition of investigative genetic genealogy.

01:05:28.620 I grew up in the 70s like you.

01:05:30.540 I remember being terrified of son of Sam who was in the news that that case terrified me

01:05:36.740 because my Nana lived in the New York City area.

01:05:38.620 It was all over the news.

01:05:40.240 Just you never know what's seeping into your child's head, you know, just based on the

01:05:44.080 news coverage.

01:05:45.880 Of course, there was Ted Bundy.

01:05:47.760 There was a Hillside Strangler.

01:05:50.320 I've heard a night stalker Richard Ramirez.

01:05:53.000 He was in my area.

01:05:54.220 I was.

01:05:54.840 Yes.

01:05:55.640 And we haven't even covered the big ones like BTK and Zodiac.

01:06:01.440 I've heard you say you don't think we can have a serial killer anymore.

01:06:04.740 Like that's the odds of that happening now are next to nil.

01:06:09.560 So why?

01:06:10.900 Well, first of all, what we just talked about, the technological evidence.

01:06:14.440 But if even that fails, we always will have investigative genetic genealogy going forward

01:06:20.000 now.

01:06:20.820 And so unless someone is killing people from a distance with a gun and even then we might

01:06:26.060 be able to.

01:06:27.060 DC snipers.

01:06:27.820 I've been thinking about them this whole conversation that you get nowhere.

01:06:30.460 I mean, I'm not recommending how people commit murder, but they got nowhere near their

01:06:34.040 victims.

01:06:34.440 It's one of the reasons why it was so hard to detect who it was.

01:06:37.600 Well, then they better wear gloves when they handle the bullets because you can pull DNA

01:06:42.380 from bullet casing as well.

01:06:44.700 And so it's just going to be virtually impossible to be the type of serial killer and certainly

01:06:51.340 a serial rapist that is perpetrating these very intimate, up close and personal crimes

01:06:57.500 because you will leave your DNA behind.

01:06:59.420 And if you do, we will identify you, even if it takes months or years.

01:07:04.840 I recently worked the Faith Hedgepeth case out of Chapel Hill, North Carolina.

01:07:10.580 It took us three years to identify the DNA contributor, her killer, her alleged killer, because he was

01:07:18.320 born in Guatemala.

01:07:19.840 And so even those cases, we will get there.

01:07:23.680 It just takes additional time.

01:07:25.980 And as the databases grow, it's going to get more efficient and quicker and quicker as

01:07:30.440 time goes on.

01:07:31.640 And we're getting better at what we're doing every day as well.

01:07:34.820 And so, you know, that's why I don't think that we will have serial killers.

01:07:39.280 There won't be Ted Bundy's or Golden State killers or Zodiac, who's still unidentified 50 years

01:07:45.580 later because of investigative genetic genealogy.

01:07:49.080 This is a good incentive for people to actually upload their DNA results if you are at all so inclined.

01:07:56.200 I understand a lot of people aren't.

01:07:57.280 But if you are inclined, do it and do it at GEDmatch to take your results from these other private

01:08:02.880 companies and do it.

01:08:03.920 Not saying you're a serial killer or you're your family member, but like there could be this

01:08:08.540 the Loretta Swit.

01:08:09.940 She's not a serial killer either.

01:08:11.420 You could have the sixth cousin who you have no love for connection, real connection to who's

01:08:17.260 done something wrong.

01:08:18.160 And wouldn't it be nice to have helped law enforcement nab that person?

01:08:23.020 It's it's one of the reasons why your name came up in discussing the JonBenet Ramsey case.

01:08:28.820 We had Jon Ramsey on the show not long ago and he's like, I'm 78 years old.

01:08:34.360 I you know, I don't have much time to see this case solved.

01:08:38.180 And he said, Cece, he wants someone like you to analyze what they say is a teeny tiny bit

01:08:47.440 of DNA that is left in that case.

01:08:51.820 And I don't know why there's not more, because apparently they have they have JonBenet's pajamas.

01:08:56.780 They have her underwear.

01:08:57.740 They have the the implement used to strangle or JonBenet and the instrument.

01:09:05.600 And it's been tested repeatedly and there's been no match.

01:09:09.980 And I guess what he's being told is.

01:09:13.000 Basically, there's only one more test in here, like if we do this again and we don't get the

01:09:18.060 guy, it's done.

01:09:19.160 There's so little left.

01:09:20.220 So just to update our viewers, he wants the governor of Colorado to allow him as the child's

01:09:28.060 father who's been ruled out as a suspect by the prosecutor to take this DNA and give it to

01:09:33.460 somebody like you to take it to a private lab that is the best of the best.

01:09:37.580 And this seems to make so much sense to me, but he wasn't able to get the governor,

01:09:42.520 Governor Polis, to even respond to him.

01:09:45.320 He told us this right before Christmas when he came on.

01:09:47.640 So during that interview, he told us this is an update for our viewers, he told us about

01:09:53.460 a letter that he wrote to the Colorado governor, Jared Polis, and he had written it like two

01:09:57.020 months earlier, October.

01:09:58.200 He asked him for a face to face meeting because so far he'd been getting the stiff arm from

01:10:02.120 the governor, from the state law enforcement.

01:10:04.160 They created this sort of, oh, we're going to refer to our cold case unit.

01:10:06.900 And he was like, that's that's a PR CYA cover.

01:10:10.380 That's not real.

01:10:11.580 And he wanted to tell the governor personally the different steps he wants taken in the investigation,

01:10:15.840 including this new DNA testing with somebody like you.

01:10:19.480 So it would cost the state nothing.

01:10:21.160 He said he and his supporters would pay for it.

01:10:23.640 Well, John came on.

01:10:24.740 He told us the governor never even did him the courtesy of responding to him.

01:10:28.660 I mean, how do you not respond to this grieving dad?

01:10:31.800 After the interview, we promised John Ramsey that we and our and our viewers were going to

01:10:37.020 reach out to the governor and demand answers.

01:10:39.640 Why are you ignoring this man?

01:10:41.060 Why are you ignoring John Ramsey and his concerns?

01:10:44.220 No response for us either.

01:10:45.940 We told our listeners and our viewers to do it.

01:10:47.960 They did as well.

01:10:48.900 Reached out to the governor's office directly, demanding action on behalf of John Ramsey.

01:10:52.860 Respond to the man.

01:10:53.580 Do something.

01:10:54.680 Now, we don't know what exactly flipped that switch.

01:10:58.040 But John just told us he's heard back from the governor after two months of being ignored.

01:11:02.440 And now the governor has asked him, John Ramsey, to contact the Colorado director of public

01:11:07.180 safety, and he's done that no face to face meeting yet.

01:11:10.200 But John is telling us he now feels encouraged by the response.

01:11:14.060 So, yay.

01:11:15.200 Thank you to all of our viewers and our listeners for helping and amping up the pressure.

01:11:20.100 And now, Cece, what we need to happen is for someone like you, ideally you, to get this

01:11:25.460 evidence analyzed.

01:11:27.840 So how high are the risks given how little DNA there is?

01:11:31.460 Just backtracking a little, I don't know if you remember, but you asked me almost five

01:11:36.700 years ago what case I'd like to work.

01:11:39.240 And I mentioned Jean Benet.

01:11:40.980 And I have received emails or messages on social media every single day since that time

01:11:46.900 asking me to work this case.

01:11:49.000 I certainly would love to have the opportunity to do so.

01:11:52.780 But I doubt very much that they would let me work it.

01:11:55.680 I would expect maybe the FBI will work it if anyone is allowed to do so.

01:12:00.720 So as far as the risks, yeah, once you use up that DNA, that's the end.

01:12:05.980 So you have to make sure that it's being sent to a well-tested team, a lab that has been

01:12:14.100 able to create profiles, genetic genealogy profiles from tiny amounts of degraded DNA,

01:12:20.680 and that has scientists that are really highly skilled at working with that degraded DNA.

01:12:26.980 We can assume it's degraded after all these years.

01:12:29.280 With touch DNA, which I think that's what this is in this case, my understanding, again,

01:12:35.320 you just have a tiny bit of skin cells, and it can be very quickly consumed.

01:12:41.780 So I understand Boulder Police's hesitation to use up that last little bit because you

01:12:48.340 never know what's coming around the corner.

01:12:50.540 Nobody predicted investigative genetic genealogy outside of our little community.

01:12:55.840 And so I always am hesitant to second-guess law enforcement.

01:13:02.600 I've been involved in some pretty high-profile cases where people were out there criticizing

01:13:07.780 law enforcement and had no idea what was going on behind the scenes.

01:13:12.200 Like Idaho.

01:13:12.680 And I wasn't able to...

01:13:13.620 Yeah, just like Idaho.

01:13:15.660 That's exactly right.

01:13:16.540 Now, in that case, I didn't have inside information, but I strongly suspected they were trying investigative

01:13:21.740 genetic genealogy, but there's been other cases where they've never even released that they

01:13:26.120 did use that tool.

01:13:28.400 And I've had to keep quiet and listen, watch all these people criticizing law enforcement

01:13:33.740 for years.

01:13:34.700 It happened in the Chapel Hill case and Faith Hedgepest case as well.

01:13:38.520 Had to bite my tongue.

01:13:39.600 And so you just don't know what they are doing behind the scenes and what their reasoning

01:13:44.440 is.

01:13:45.480 And so I really do hesitate to second-guess, like I said, but I think it is the time to

01:13:52.380 go ahead and do it.

01:13:53.380 They can get a whole genome sequence done on that DNA if it's viable, meaning you could not

01:13:59.940 just look at the 700,000 markers that we use for genetic genealogy, but they could look

01:14:05.820 at the entire genome and then have all of that information for the future.

01:14:11.000 And I think that's probably the best bet in this case.

01:14:13.600 There's two different ways you can do it.

01:14:15.320 One is called microarray, where you just look at those 700,000, 800,000 genetic markers that

01:14:20.740 the direct-to-consumer DNA testing companies also use.

01:14:24.240 Or you can do this whole genome sequence where you get every bit of the genome information

01:14:29.720 that is available in that sample.

01:14:31.560 You get that from touch, from touch DNA?

01:14:33.860 Yes, absolutely.

01:14:34.900 You know, about 10% of the cases that we've helped solve or been able to create profiles

01:14:42.340 for have been touch DNA.

01:14:44.060 We published a paper in 2019 talking about that.

01:14:47.680 And so people in this case are saying, oh, it's so new if they use touch DNA for genetic

01:14:52.040 genealogy.

01:14:52.860 But it's actually not.

01:14:54.040 We've been doing it since 2018.

01:14:56.220 So it's totally doable.

01:14:58.660 And I think, you know, John's getting older, as he keeps pointing out, and now is the time.

01:15:04.020 But I do understand their hesitation.

01:15:06.300 It is risky.

01:15:06.940 Could you get, when you say you can get the whole genome, would that allow you to do both

01:15:10.460 lanes of investigative work you were telling us about?

01:15:12.900 Like, figure out the family tree potentially, and at a minimum, get, this is what the person

01:15:19.080 is likely to look like.

01:15:20.280 This is what the hair color probably is.

01:15:21.900 You could do both of those off the same tiny cells.

01:15:24.020 Yes.

01:15:24.500 Yes.

01:15:25.160 And so that's one thing that's interesting about Parabon is they were doing this phenotyping

01:15:29.520 before genetic genealogy was a thing for law enforcement.

01:15:33.400 And the files that they created for that are exactly the files that we use for genetic genealogy,

01:15:39.180 which is why when I joined forces with them, I had about 100 cases right off the bat because

01:15:44.560 they had already created those files.

01:15:46.600 They'd already gone through the lab process.

01:15:48.320 And all we had to do was get permission to upload those to GEDmatch.

01:15:52.260 And so, yes, it absolutely has the same information in there that you would need to predict eye

01:15:58.460 color, hair color, ancestry.

01:16:01.180 It is a really powerful amount of information.

01:16:06.140 Cece, am I crazy?

01:16:07.480 This may have been a different company, but I feel like when I was at NBC, Andrea Canning

01:16:11.000 had this done, like on herself, you know, like and and there was a like, do you guys

01:16:17.720 do a a sketch, you know, off of the the info you get back?

01:16:23.160 I just remember seeing a sketch of Andrea.

01:16:25.620 I was pretty good to do that.

01:16:27.380 That was before I was part of the company.

01:16:28.940 But I think you're right.

01:16:29.900 I do remember seeing that on their site.

01:16:32.320 So, I mean, imagine it.

01:16:33.440 We could potentially get a picture of the JonBenet killer pretty quickly if there's enough

01:16:38.180 cells on this thing.

01:16:39.380 And that's how quickly things have advanced in the DNA line.

01:16:43.160 And there's I mean, that's that case captured the attention of the nation.

01:16:46.080 Everybody would like to see whoever did that brought to justice.

01:16:48.920 OK, there's more because we've got to talk about this case out of Pennsylvania.

01:16:54.240 This is right where my husband's from.

01:16:56.220 So he was very interested in this as well.

01:16:58.280 Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

01:16:59.160 And wait until you hear how CeCe Moore solved this case.

01:17:03.900 One a week.

01:17:04.960 She's knocking out you guys.

01:17:06.200 She stays with us for our last segment.

01:17:08.100 Don't go away.

01:17:09.380 We've got to talk about this case in Pennsylvania.

01:17:15.040 You recently solved this case as of July of 2022.

01:17:18.820 Let's go back before that, though, to 1975, when the murder of then 19 year old Lindy Sue

01:17:25.820 Beachler took place.

01:17:27.000 She was stabbed to death 19 times in her apartment on December 5th, 1975.

01:17:34.440 She was found lying on her back with a knife sticking out of her neck.

01:17:38.840 Decades went by without an arrest in the gruesome crime.

01:17:42.940 They had no idea.

01:17:44.660 Police were not able to solve this.

01:17:46.280 As I understand it, it happened in Pennsylvania and it was just a cold case.

01:17:52.540 So you got involved in this.

01:17:55.660 How did you get involved in this all these years later?

01:17:57.440 Well, Lancaster Police had worked with Parabon before I even joined forces with them to create

01:18:03.360 this investigative genetic genealogy service.

01:18:06.000 So they had an established relationship with them.

01:18:08.800 So when I came on board, they asked Lancaster Police if we could perform genetic genealogy first on the

01:18:16.780 Christy Murak case, which they had done a phenotype for.

01:18:20.160 And so they we uploaded that to GEDmatch.

01:18:23.160 And on that case right away, we had good matches for me to work with.

01:18:27.100 Now, when I became really familiar with that case, I learned that Christy's brother and Lindy

01:18:33.300 Sue's brother had taken out billboards together asking for tips on their sisters.

01:18:39.220 And so I was able to help law enforcement solve Christy Murak's case way back in 2018.

01:18:44.640 It was one of my very first ones.

01:18:46.620 But I felt like Lindy Sue's case was hanging over my head for years because I really felt

01:18:53.720 that they both needed to be solved.

01:18:56.400 They were sort of like sister cases to me, even though they were so many years apart.

01:19:00.780 And I wanted Lindy Sue's family and brother to have those answers as well, like Christy's

01:19:06.120 family finally did.

01:19:07.920 But when we performed the analysis on that crime scene DNA and uploaded it to GEDmatch,

01:19:14.860 there were no good matches.

01:19:16.400 They were all very, very, very distant.

01:19:18.880 So we recommended they upload to Family Tree DNA as well, the second database.

01:19:23.640 Again, no good matches.

01:19:25.480 And I was just so disappointed because I so desperately wanted to help law enforcement

01:19:32.340 identify her killer as well.

01:19:34.800 Okay.

01:19:35.480 So then what'd you do?

01:19:37.620 Well, because we didn't have any close matches.

01:19:41.780 So the closest match we had only shared 30 centimorgans.

01:19:46.400 30 centimorgans can be a false match even.

01:19:50.080 That's so distant.

01:19:51.060 It could be a 10th cousin, but I was determined to try to help on this case.

01:19:56.480 So just behind the scenes, without even telling the law enforcement agency I was doing it, I

01:20:02.800 started building trees of these really distant matches.

01:20:06.520 And instead of being able.

01:20:07.580 Oh, going back into the 1600s.

01:20:11.000 Oh my gosh.

01:20:11.940 And I didn't expect I'd find common ancestors because of the distance.

01:20:16.940 But I did find that they were all converging on this small town in southern Italy.

01:20:24.120 And so that was really interesting to me because it was clear that the person who left their

01:20:30.340 DNA behind on Lindy Sue, so her killer, her alleged killer at this point, had all of his

01:20:38.700 ancestral roots go back to this one small area in South Italy.

01:20:43.140 So that's pretty specific.

01:20:45.580 So I started researching the migration history of Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

01:20:50.800 Where did the people come from?

01:20:52.900 Okay, Italy.

01:20:53.800 I found that there was a club, Sons of Italy.

01:20:58.660 And I started looking through their membership cards, which are digitized online, thankfully.

01:21:03.440 And I found that most of the people, most of the Italians who came to Lancaster came from

01:21:10.740 this small town called Gasparina.

01:21:13.520 Well, Gasparina is the town in Italy that the trees were going back to.

01:21:18.600 Aha.

01:21:19.180 So that meant that Lindy's killer likely had roots in Lancaster going back.

01:21:26.440 This wasn't someone who just was passing through.

01:21:28.500 This is somebody whose family had been in Lancaster for probably a couple generations and had come

01:21:35.420 directly from Gasparina.

01:21:37.000 And he was going to be fully Italian with full ancestry from there based on the family trees

01:21:43.100 as well as the ancestry predictions we were able to create.

01:21:47.700 And so I needed to find someone who had four grandparents from Gasparina, all eight great

01:21:54.460 grandparents from either there or close by in that region.

01:21:58.500 That had come to Lancaster and settled there.

01:22:01.540 And so I went through all of those cards and then started building the family trees for

01:22:08.380 each of the men.

01:22:09.840 That's who was in that club, men.

01:22:12.120 Each of those men who came to Lancaster, I built their trees forward to see who did they

01:22:18.020 marry.

01:22:18.960 And then I would build their trees backward to see if they also had ancestry exclusively from

01:22:24.900 Gasparina or nearby.

01:22:26.000 And so I needed to find somebody whose ancestors intermarried with people from their hometown.

01:22:33.580 And we also had done a snapshot phenotype in that case.

01:22:36.960 And he had a little bit unique traits.

01:22:39.800 And I'm not sure I can go into that right now.

01:22:41.780 But he had for Southern Italian, he had sort of unusual physical traits.

01:22:47.420 And so I was able to look at that as well.

01:22:50.880 And it wasn't that many people who came to Lancaster from that town.

01:22:56.860 I mean, there was a fair amount, but it was a very defined migration route.

01:23:00.980 And it was a small percent of the overall population.

01:23:04.140 So I figured if there was only a few hundred who came over, then that was doable.

01:23:12.320 It was just going to take time.

01:23:13.680 Anyone who intermarried with someone from a different population group, their descendants

01:23:18.100 were out.

01:23:19.340 So I just kept building these trees and seeing who would fit.

01:23:24.860 And then as I was doing that, each of those descendants who would be a candidate, I started

01:23:31.040 doing newspaper searches on them.

01:23:33.080 And one of them turned out had the same address as Lindy.

01:23:39.620 I found a, I think it was an engagement announcement in the newspaper.

01:23:43.760 And I was just blown away.

01:23:46.380 What are the chances of doing this for months and months, years actually, of behind the scenes

01:23:53.640 building these trees and it leading right to the same apartment building that Lindy was

01:23:58.980 killed in?

01:23:59.460 Oh my God.

01:24:01.560 So then this is chilling.

01:24:05.100 So then you got to close the loop.

01:24:07.900 Got to figure out now you have a name.

01:24:09.780 I mean, that's the big thing.

01:24:10.840 Now you have a name who you think could potentially be the guy.

01:24:14.640 What's the next step?

01:24:17.100 There's a couple other things about him that were compelling, but because this is still an

01:24:21.360 active case, I won't go into those.

01:24:22.940 But I felt pretty confident, but I didn't have any solid evidence like I normally have.

01:24:29.800 Normally I can connect my person of interest to multiple matches through common ancestors,

01:24:36.000 but I couldn't connect any of these people directly to his family tree, just to that hometown

01:24:42.020 of Gasparina.

01:24:42.800 So it was really nerve wracking, but I still felt like it was a good enough lead to pass

01:24:48.020 it on.

01:24:48.860 And so we reached out to Lancaster police and let them know that I'd been working on this,

01:24:53.420 which they weren't even aware of, and set up a meeting.

01:24:56.960 And I shared his name with them.

01:24:58.840 At that point, it's just a tip.

01:25:01.560 It's a lead generator.

01:25:02.920 No one's going to get arrested based on what I say.

01:25:05.620 So they have to perform their full investigation on this individual, just like they would have

01:25:10.200 had to do on Brian Kohlberger if that's how he was identified.

01:25:13.860 This is not evidence that's going to be used against anyone in a court of law.

01:25:18.160 So they started looking into this individual, and they eventually collected surreptitious DNA,

01:25:24.660 just like they did in the Idaho case.

01:25:26.300 And they tested that against their original court admissible genetic profile.

01:25:32.540 That's the one that is used for evidence.

01:25:34.820 They can't arrest somebody until they've done that or gotten a close family member like they

01:25:39.860 did with Brian's father.

01:25:41.820 In this case, they got DNA directly from the suspect or the person of interest, and he became

01:25:47.680 a suspect because they got that one-to-one exact match, which when they told me was huge,

01:25:55.320 because this was a novel technique that I had just created.

01:26:00.060 And it was nerve-wracking, right?

01:26:03.000 If I can't even connect one match to someone's family tree, I feel very hesitant to point them

01:26:08.920 out to law enforcement.

01:26:10.140 Like I said earlier, I don't want to send them after innocent people.

01:26:13.140 But there was just certain things, circumstantial things about him and about his life that made

01:26:20.320 it too compelling not to pass it on.

01:26:23.100 So when they told me it was a match, it was just tremendous.

01:26:26.900 So they, according to what I read, they found him in the airport, in the Philadelphia airport.

01:26:34.860 And I think that's where they got his, February 2022, they recovered a coffee cup he used and

01:26:40.840 threw away at the Philadelphia International Airport.

01:26:43.780 Labs later confirmed the DNA on his coffee cup matched the DNA from the semen on Lindy

01:26:49.300 Sue's underwear.

01:26:50.440 All these years later, again, the crime happened in 1975.

01:26:55.060 They also found that DNA in blood left on her pantyhose was consistent with the semen and

01:27:04.200 so on.

01:27:04.620 Like they were matching it on a couple of fronts.

01:27:06.880 Now, this man's name is David Sinopoli.

01:27:11.920 He's been arrested.

01:27:13.440 He has pleaded not guilty.

01:27:17.120 But this guy did apparently live in her apartment building at the time in 1975.

01:27:21.800 He would have been, I think, 18 by my calculation.

01:27:24.860 He's now 68 years old.

01:27:27.020 This guy went on, as far as we can tell, to lead a relatively normal life.

01:27:33.660 I mean, it's it's kind of crazy, right?

01:27:36.600 Cece, do you know anything about like what he did over those next 50 years?

01:27:39.620 Oh, yeah.

01:27:39.980 I did a lot of research, as I always do, when I have identified a potential person of interest.

01:27:45.540 I dig through social media, through newspaper articles, through the traditional genealogical

01:27:53.120 records.

01:27:53.880 I use all types of different resources to learn about someone before I turn their name over.

01:27:59.360 I write a really complete report with a lot of information for law enforcement in my cases.

01:28:04.100 So he got married?

01:28:06.420 He had kids?

01:28:06.900 Yeah, he was a newlywed at the same time that Lindy was a newlywed.

01:28:10.520 They both were.

01:28:11.780 Oh, my gosh.

01:28:12.640 I mean, it's just so creepy to think that if this is true, this guy committed a heinous,

01:28:20.380 brutal murder and then went on to live with the secret for 50 years, probably always wondering,

01:28:28.380 especially as DNA techniques got more developed, right?

01:28:31.940 Yeah, it definitely seems like it seems like we're identifying a new type of criminal with

01:28:38.240 investigative genetic genealogy.

01:28:40.500 We see so many of these cases where this individual seems to have perpetrated one really

01:28:46.280 horrible, violent crime and then gone on with their lives.

01:28:50.560 And that's why they're cold cases, right?

01:28:51.920 They were never arrested for another crime.

01:28:53.940 They never got their DNA in the system.

01:28:55.960 These are people that were never on law enforcement's radar at all.

01:28:59.040 So, you know, who knows what else these individuals may have done?

01:29:03.020 But it certainly appears that we've identified many of these types of individuals that did

01:29:08.660 something like this once and then faded back into society and lived what appeared to be

01:29:13.020 a normal life.

01:29:14.160 They say his friends were shocked.

01:29:15.900 I mean, his family's shocked.

01:29:16.880 They can't believe it.

01:29:17.700 But I mean, the truth is DNA doesn't lie.

01:29:19.960 I will say to the audience, two things firm on a, you know, rape homicide victim.

01:29:26.380 I do want to make one more point, which is that the D.A.

01:29:28.940 has actually allowed me to speak about this case.

01:29:31.860 Normally, I wouldn't be doing so when it's still working its way through the court system.

01:29:35.500 But the D.A.

01:29:36.380 specifically asked me to speak at the press conference and explain my methods.

01:29:41.300 OK, I'm not speaking out of turn.

01:29:43.680 Got it.

01:29:44.240 Um, this has been used by you, uh, to, as I mentioned in the intro, identify murder victims

01:29:51.240 who, you know, Jane Doe's, John Doe's giving closure to so many families who just had their

01:29:56.660 child disappear and never knew what happened to them and just assume the worst.

01:30:00.580 But there's some closure in knowing this is how they died.

01:30:03.520 They were the victim of this person.

01:30:05.060 They certain deaths tied to this killer or that killer.

01:30:07.400 I mean, it's upsetting, but it's I'm sure most most families are relieved to be able

01:30:12.400 to bury their loved one and so on.

01:30:14.240 Another important lane of what you're doing.

01:30:16.640 And just for the record, we went back and checked all the cases that you'd been working

01:30:20.780 on when you came on and we interviewed you on NBC.

01:30:24.180 There was one case involving a little girl, April Tinsley, who'd been murdered in December

01:30:31.260 2018.

01:30:32.160 Again, this is after our interview.

01:30:33.760 The man you helped identify sentenced to 80 years in prison.

01:30:36.720 There was another case.

01:30:38.360 By the way, that was the first conviction of somebody identified through investigative

01:30:42.780 genetic genealogy.

01:30:44.420 Oh, wow.

01:30:45.540 Another guy.

01:30:46.660 This is in.

01:30:48.260 Let's see.

01:30:48.940 This is in connection with a 20 year old Jay Cook and 18 year old Tanya Van Koehlenberg

01:30:52.800 in 1987.

01:30:53.980 Canadian high school sweethearts visited Seattle and were killed.

01:30:57.620 You helped identify the accused killer, William Talbot.

01:31:00.680 He had pleaded not guilty at the time we interviewed, found guilty in June of 2019.

01:31:05.940 And that was the first jury trial to find someone guilty who was identified through

01:31:10.980 IgG, investigative genetic genealogy.

01:31:13.580 So these are all big firsts.

01:31:15.800 Yes.

01:31:16.100 It's absolutely amazing.

01:31:17.100 I mean, we talked about seven, six or whatever cases, every single one, the person either

01:31:21.720 pleaded guilty or was found guilty in a court of law.

01:31:25.120 So your track record's really good.

01:31:26.960 So in the time we have left.

01:31:28.400 Yeah, we have over 40 convictions now.

01:31:31.620 We have over 40 convictions in our cases.

01:31:33.860 Some are lagging because of COVID.

01:31:35.380 It took longer to get these and we still have lots in the pipeline.

01:31:38.920 But yeah, our track record and genetic genealogy's track record record.

01:31:42.900 And this is really phenomenal.

01:31:44.900 Pretty stellar.

01:31:46.500 Where is this going, Cece?

01:31:48.320 Right?

01:31:48.680 Like 20 years ago, probably nobody could anticipate where we are today.

01:31:52.500 What do you think?

01:31:53.780 Like if you had to predict the future, where's this going?

01:31:56.280 Well, if you, I mean, if you had asked me a month or two ago, I would have said we will

01:32:00.140 start working more active cases.

01:32:01.900 It'll start stopping criminals in their tracks, keeping serial killers from ever developing.

01:32:06.580 And here we see with Idaho, exactly what I would have told you would happen is what

01:32:11.720 is going to happen.

01:32:12.920 And I am one of the reasons I've been out there talking about this Idaho case, even though

01:32:17.020 I was not involved in it, is because it is a fantastic example of what I've been advocating

01:32:22.280 for, is using investigative genetic genealogy early in a crime, soon as they don't get that

01:32:27.680 hit in the law enforcement database, because it can save lives.

01:32:31.580 And this is where we can have the real impact on public safety.

01:32:35.360 We can keep people from losing their lives and being victimized.

01:32:38.960 And we can really help law enforcement be more efficient with their investigations.

01:32:43.880 Instead of investigating something for years or decades and spending public funds on this

01:32:50.220 and involving innocent people in these investigations, we can probably even help avoid wrongful convictions

01:32:57.880 by keeping the focus off the innocent from the beginning.

01:33:01.380 Because one of the real powers of investigative genetic genealogy is the ability to rule people

01:33:07.080 out.

01:33:08.140 You know, for every one of these, we focus on the arrests.

01:33:10.420 But I have ruled out dozens or hundreds of persons of interest in all of these cases

01:33:16.300 when I start working them.

01:33:17.880 Many of those have already been under suspicion for years or decades.

01:33:21.480 I've heard from lots of people thanking me for finally lifting that burden off of their

01:33:26.080 shoulders.

01:33:27.020 And so I think that's where we're going, is when they don't, you know, when they run out

01:33:30.860 of avenues, when they tried all the technological advances, and they still don't have this individual

01:33:35.960 in their sites, they will turn to investigative genetic genealogy now.

01:33:40.780 It's another reminder, by the way, that when the police process a crime scene, they ought

01:33:46.000 to be dressed like in hazmat suits.

01:33:48.520 Given this touch DNA, they can't go anywhere near it without suiting up from head to toe

01:33:54.340 to make sure that they don't disturb anything.

01:33:57.520 Think of it.

01:33:58.080 I mean, it's like...

01:33:58.900 You're right, because we have had some cases that trace back to law enforcement officers

01:34:03.180 or people that were involved in the case.

01:34:06.120 And so that's unfortunate when that happens.

01:34:08.320 Yeah.

01:34:08.600 And I'm sure that they're paying attention to latest developments and realizing how critical

01:34:12.160 that is more than ever to make sure that they touch nothing with their bare hands or,

01:34:16.820 you know, their own DNA getting on a site, which, as you point out, is so easy for people

01:34:21.420 to do.

01:34:21.640 You can't go in with exposed eyebrows.

01:34:23.720 I mean, there's a lot to think about.

01:34:25.460 Cece Moore, you're a genius.

01:34:27.340 You're a heroine.

01:34:28.260 Thank you so much for all the great work you do.

01:34:31.320 Thank you so much for your support.

01:34:31.860 You are so kind, and I'm so happy we got to speak again.

01:34:35.420 Oh, likewise.

01:34:36.280 And saying a prayer that it works out between you and the JonBenet Ramsey investigation.

01:34:41.180 They need you.

01:34:42.040 All the best to you.

01:34:42.880 Thank you so much.

01:34:46.100 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:34:48.040 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:34:58.260 Thank you.

The Megyn Kelly Show - January 12, 2023

How Police Used Genetics in Idaho Murders Case, and Solving Crimes with Genealogy, with CeCe Moore ｜ Ep. 470

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