The Megyn Kelly Show - Hunter Biden's Daughter's Mother Lunden Roberts Speaks Out, and Glenn Loury on Overcoming His Demons and Succeeding in Academia

00:00:00.540 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:12.080 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.460 Oh, we have a great program for you lined up today.

00:00:19.040 Later, we're going to be joined by London Roberts.

00:00:22.220 Who is London Roberts?

00:00:23.880 She is the mother of President Biden's grandchild

00:00:27.740 that he only recently acknowledged under pressure from the left to be more humane

00:00:34.160 and to actually say publicly he has a seventh grandchild,

00:00:39.180 notwithstanding the six grandchildren's stockings posted on the White House mantle at Christmastime

00:00:45.560 and Jill Biden posting only about her six grandchildren.

00:00:50.460 They knew they had seven.

00:00:51.660 They knew that Hunter had fathered a child named Navy with a woman from Arkansas named London.

00:00:59.640 Well, London's here today.

00:01:01.960 She's speaking out on her experience with the Biden family and more.

00:01:05.700 But we begin with a favorite of The MK Show, Glenn Lowry.

00:01:10.260 But it'll be a different conversation than others you have seen and heard with him in the past.

00:01:14.460 Glenn has just released a new memoir in which he tells all.

00:01:20.900 And I do mean all.

00:01:23.380 All right.

00:01:23.980 So there's a lot to get to with him.

00:01:25.420 His book is called Late Admissions, Confessions of a Black Conservative.

00:01:30.600 It's available right now.

00:01:32.160 And oh, my God, I'm begging you to go buy this book.

00:01:34.200 It's well worth your time.

00:01:36.140 I think you're going to find it somewhat shocking.

00:01:40.560 Glenn, welcome back to the show.

00:01:41.880 Great to have you.

00:01:42.520 Good to be with you, Megan.

00:01:43.920 Thank you.

00:01:44.860 OK, so this is fascinating because you are one of my heroes.

00:01:47.820 And man, do you lay it bare?

00:01:49.800 You lay it bare in this book.

00:01:52.660 I'm going to start with the New York Times, part of the New York Times review of your book,

00:01:57.620 which my husband, Doug, read to me out loud.

00:02:00.200 He loves you, too.

00:02:00.820 And he's like, oh, my gosh.

00:02:02.800 And I couldn't believe it's from the book.

00:02:04.560 This is not the New York Times writer trying to slam you.

00:02:07.560 He's actually accurately representing portions of the book.

00:02:11.200 It reads as follows.

00:02:13.260 Clancy Lowry's new book, Late Admissions, is unlike any economist memoir I have ever read.

00:02:19.200 Most don't mention picking up streetwalkers or smoking crack in a faculty office at Harvard's

00:02:23.620 Kennedy School or in an airplane at 30,000 feet or stealing a car or having sex on a beach

00:02:29.280 in Israel with a mistress and attracting the attention of the Israeli defense forces or

00:02:33.780 later being arrested and charged with assaulting her or cuckolding a best friend or abandoning

00:02:39.100 children born out of wedlock or becoming estranged from the children that weren't or writing computer

00:02:43.400 code to win a blackjack or having a porn addiction or keeping a bachelor pleasure dome decorated

00:02:48.900 with a bare skin rug, a brass four poster bed and a fat marijuana plant or sidling around

00:02:53.840 in a paisley smoking jacket with a matching ascot because it, quote, radiated suave sophistication

00:02:59.040 and Hefner-esque cool or sneaking into dorm rooms as a professor to suck face with much

00:03:04.080 younger women or entering detox clinics, finding God when it was convenient, appearing on the

00:03:09.700 700 Club, then ditching God.

00:03:12.360 And on it goes from there.

00:03:15.020 Did Dwight Garner, who wrote this review, get any of that wrong, Glenn?

00:03:19.460 I'm wondering if he left anything out.

00:03:24.060 Okay, so it's been a colorful life.

00:03:26.040 What can I say?

00:03:28.700 So the biggest question that Doug and I both had after first reading the review and now the book is,

00:03:34.960 what made you do this, right?

00:03:36.920 It's appropriately called late admissions.

00:03:39.840 So what made you, at 75 years old, write a book, you know, with warts and all, it's all out there?

00:03:49.260 It's a gambit.

00:03:51.320 I mean, one strategy would have been, let me craft my self-presentation to make myself look

00:03:58.380 better, to make myself look attractive.

00:04:02.320 Let me try to win the reader over through artifice.

00:04:04.980 I didn't want to take that route.

00:04:10.320 I have a different strategy.

00:04:12.660 The strategy is, let me tell the truth, the whole truth, the bitter, ugly truth, but also

00:04:20.480 the beautiful truth, the noble and humane truth about my life.

00:04:23.500 Let me lay it bare and rely upon the reader's, I won't call it sympathy, but a perception of

00:04:31.040 the humanity of this person who's talking about his life and a recognition that the guy who's

00:04:37.460 telling you about the life is not the same as the guy being reported on from 30 years ago or

00:04:44.380 whatever it is, who made mistakes, yes, but who also recovered from those mistakes and who is the

00:04:50.820 better for it now.

00:04:51.620 So I decided to take the latter strategy.

00:04:55.440 And have you had any regrets so far?

00:04:58.560 Have any of the women, have anybody, you know, mentioned, because we've got real names in here

00:05:02.760 come forth to say, hello, Glenn, hello, no.

00:05:08.300 No, I don't have any regrets.

00:05:10.480 And no, there hasn't been any blowback, at least not yet.

00:05:13.560 And not all the names are, I mean, the name that was known to the public because it was

00:05:19.080 reported in the press when the mistress with whom I had the bitter breakup, with whom I

00:05:25.720 lounged on a beach in the Gulf of A Lot, and so on, she's known to the public because those

00:05:32.680 events were reported on.

00:05:35.020 But other names have been changed to protect the innocent.

00:05:37.820 And no, I don't have any regrets.

00:05:40.040 I mean, a dear friend of mine, an old friend, someone I've known for 50 years, said to me,

00:05:45.580 you know, I'm not sure I much like the guy I met in that book.

00:05:49.080 And my answer is, no, I'm not sure I like that guy either.

00:05:52.200 But that guy could never have written this book.

00:05:56.720 I think it's fascinating.

00:05:58.440 I'm actually really glad you told it.

00:06:00.500 And I think it explains so much about you, one of which is your feelings about Barack Obama,

00:06:08.320 who I know you've called a political operator.

00:06:10.680 And just so our audience knows, I think most of them know you, Glenn, but just in case that

00:06:13.860 they don't, Glenn, I believe, was the youngest tenured economics professor at Harvard ever.

00:06:18.940 Now is at Brown University as an economics professor and is a more heterodox thinker when

00:06:24.660 it comes to race issues and a more conservative guy and has been pushing back against some of

00:06:29.180 these mainstream narratives on racial grievance for the better part of his whole life.

00:06:34.200 And so isn't exactly beloved by the left, though they keep promoting Glenn and they want to

00:06:41.920 love.

00:06:42.340 He's written some books on prison reform that kind of tempt the left into loving Glenn.

00:06:46.100 But then they see he's actually conservative and they abandon you.

00:06:49.120 So anyway, I think it really gives us a window into why you think Barack Obama is basically

00:06:55.100 a poser, how you got to be a more conservative man despite growing up in academia and being under

00:07:01.860 enormous pressure to be a leftist.

00:07:04.440 So can you fill some of that out for us, like your background and how that side of you emerged?

00:07:10.820 Yeah, well, as far as Obama is concerned, I grew up in Chicago on the south side.

00:07:15.940 I know those neighborhoods.

00:07:17.180 I know those people.

00:07:18.380 I know the congregation that worshiped at Jeremiah Wright's Trinity United Church of Christ

00:07:22.660 because that church was located less than a mile from where I went to high school.

00:07:26.900 Uh, and I thought the artifice that Obama offered to the country, uh, trying to use the

00:07:33.520 south side of Chicago as a launching pad and trying to present himself in a certain way

00:07:37.180 lacked authenticity.

00:07:38.680 I thought what we have here is a carpetbagger who is assuming a mantle that he hasn't earned

00:07:45.280 with life's experience and so on.

00:07:47.160 And forgive me for thinking that.

00:07:48.500 Uh, as far as my own, uh, uh, upbringing and so on, working class kid, uh, black, uh, uh,

00:07:58.060 neighborhoods, south side of Chicago, uh, striving decency, respectability, but also a little

00:08:03.860 bit of crossing to the other side of the line, housing projects, uh, hustling.

00:08:09.280 Uh, I was a product of that world.

00:08:11.720 Uh, early father.

00:08:13.760 I was a father at 18, uh, college dropout who went to a community college and made my

00:08:20.160 way eventually to an elite, uh, campus Northwestern University where I flourished, uh, decided

00:08:26.060 to pursue a technical career in economic science, trained at MIT, did very well, uh, came out

00:08:32.360 as a conventional theoretical economist and abstract theorist, but eventually grad gravitated

00:08:39.400 to more political and policy related work, um, and so on.

00:08:45.260 I mean, I could go on in that vein, uh, but those are the basics of my, of my starting point

00:08:50.160 anyway.

00:08:51.200 But because of your more conservative leanings and positions, and you're not shy about expressing

00:08:56.200 your opinions, you're as open with your opinions as you are with your past.

00:09:00.060 Um, you've taken a lot of incoming and like, for example, you've been called the pathetic

00:09:07.280 black mascot of the right, uh, and worse.

00:09:11.260 And so I wonder how you feel looking around today, as you see, our news is full of more

00:09:19.020 right thinking black conservatives or conservative adjacent figures who are taking exactly that

00:09:27.000 kind of incoming, whether it's Byron Donald's, who's feeling it almost every day, Congressman

00:09:31.240 from Florida or Clarence Thomas, who has probably taken more of that than any other black American

00:09:36.700 alive.

00:09:39.260 Well, okay.

00:09:40.520 You're talking to a black conservative.

00:09:42.540 Uh, I greatly admire, uh, Justice Thomas.

00:09:45.380 I, I, I got my eye on Byron Donald's.

00:09:47.380 I think he's an interesting character.

00:09:48.880 And yes, I do think there are more voices of that sort now, uh, than there were 10 or

00:09:55.100 20 years ago.

00:09:56.960 And I think there's a good reason for it.

00:09:58.760 I think it's because the party line, the liberal party line, black people can't do anything

00:10:04.400 in this country until white people get their knee off of our nets.

00:10:07.400 We need reparations.

00:10:09.240 Structural racism is the root cause of all of the disadvantage that black Americans are

00:10:14.720 experiencing.

00:10:15.800 The police need to be defunded.

00:10:18.020 Uh, we need to abolish prisons.

00:10:20.160 Uh, affirmative action is the answer.

00:10:22.100 I think that view of the world is collapsing before our very eyes.

00:10:27.240 I think it's bankrupt.

00:10:28.040 Uh, I think it's inadequacy is becoming more and more clear.

00:10:34.020 And I think the, uh, calls that you hear, Justice Thomas is a, uh, Uncle Tom, he's a grifter

00:10:41.320 and whatever.

00:10:42.560 Justice Thomas is one of the most significant people to sit on the Supreme Court in the history

00:10:47.720 of this country.

00:10:48.560 He's had an enormous impact on American life.

00:10:51.080 He's a towering figure.

00:10:52.400 And he, moreover, is an exemplar of what is possible for African Americans to achieve in

00:10:57.440 this great country.

00:10:58.680 And that is becoming more and more clear with each passing year.

00:11:03.140 Uh, likewise for other of these voices, uh, Byron Donalds, again, whom I've got my eye

00:11:07.560 on is, uh, one such.

00:11:09.620 Uh, I, I think liberal orthodoxy is collapsing.

00:11:14.420 I think the DEI, uh, view of the world is untenable in the long run in this country.

00:11:20.780 And, uh, I think the people who adhere to it are desperate, uh, name calling and character

00:11:27.580 assassination is all they've got.

00:11:28.960 They don't have any arguments.

00:11:31.400 The, uh, attacks on Justice Thomas are relevant.

00:11:34.180 I mean, today and every day, but they've popped up again.

00:11:36.800 And one of, I think the most racist Americans we have is Ellie Mistal, who writes for the

00:11:41.180 nation.

00:11:41.460 He's on Joy Reid's program almost every night and just says the most racist things about

00:11:46.860 whites and about conservative blacks.

00:11:48.840 I mean, it's just, it's crazy.

00:11:50.880 The stuff this guy gets away with, but his latest rant was on Joy Reid.

00:11:55.260 He's very, very angry because this leftist group did a deep dive into the number of quote

00:12:00.360 gifts that Justice Thomas has accepted while he's been on the high court.

00:12:05.580 And while they do acknowledge that many other justices, including leftist justices have also

00:12:12.020 received multiple gifts.

00:12:13.900 They said, well, he's received more his, if you count the private jet travel seem to amount

00:12:18.640 to, well, once you've accepted that they can take gifts, you're done, right?

00:12:22.120 Like it's, if it's 2 million, if it's half a million, it's up to the Supreme court to determine.

00:12:26.560 And we've had whole Senate judicial confirmation hearings of these folks to figure out whether

00:12:30.300 they're ethical and belong on this court.

00:12:31.820 And we're going to trust them or not.

00:12:33.140 It's up to them to decide.

00:12:34.720 Anyway, here is Ellie Mistal going off on this report with Joy Reid.

00:12:39.300 Take a listen to SOT4.

00:12:40.300 I think it's important for people to ask, what are these people paying for, right?

00:12:45.300 What are they getting for their $4 million they've given to Clarence Thomas over the past

00:12:50.120 20 years?

00:12:50.900 What they're getting is what Byron Donald's wants.

00:12:53.760 What they're getting is Jim Crow, right?

00:12:56.420 What they're getting is a guy like Clarence Thomas, who, like Byron Donald's entire judicial

00:13:02.460 philosophy is that, well, some Negroes are magic, right?

00:13:07.040 And no matter what the white man does to us, we can just rise above as long as they don't

00:13:11.960 shoot us or kill us or rape us or drown us, right?

00:13:14.500 And if you tell people that, if you're Black, if you're Donald, if you're Thomas, and you

00:13:18.620 tell white people that, they will give you money.

00:13:21.360 And that is what's happened to Clarence Thomas for 20 years.

00:13:26.300 Wow.

00:13:27.000 Your reaction to him?

00:13:29.140 That turns my stomach, but, you know, it's par for the course.

00:13:32.540 Clarence Thomas, I mean, I don't even know where to begin.

00:13:37.500 Clarence Thomas is motivated by money?

00:13:40.100 That's laughable.

00:13:43.340 Clarence Thomas's judicial philosophy has been many decades in the development.

00:13:48.340 He has a long track record of intellectual contributions to the evolution of American

00:13:52.800 law.

00:13:53.120 Now, you can disagree with Clarence Thomas's jurisprudence, but calling him a name, calling

00:13:58.760 him, in effect, an Uncle Tom, a grifter and a sellout, that's, as I say, desperation.

00:14:06.620 Uh, I think this, uh, lapsing into, uh, the, a sample talk, uh, in, in reference to, uh, one

00:14:17.000 ninth of one third of the American government.

00:14:19.860 And as I say, an African American whose accomplishments in his life illustrate the triumph of Black people

00:14:26.840 over, uh, Jim Crow and, uh, racism and so on.

00:14:30.720 So, you know, I, I mean, I'm not surprised and that does resonate in, uh, Joy Reid's audience.

00:14:38.100 Oh, by the way, I looked her up.

00:14:39.420 She's getting paid a million and a half dollars a year to spew her bile at MSNBC.

00:14:45.120 And she's got the nerve to call somebody a grifter.

00:14:51.120 So, uh.

00:14:51.720 You're exactly right, Glenn.

00:14:53.020 She, and by the way, to your point about Thomas, if Thomas was actually, if he were interested

00:14:57.120 money, he'd be making nine, $10 million a year at any white shoe law firm in America.

00:15:07.580 Easily.

00:15:08.980 That's right.

00:15:09.980 So, I mean, it's just insulting.

00:15:11.660 I will, before I, I want to get back to the book, but quick comment on Byron Donald's and

00:15:15.980 the reason they were saying Thomas is just like Byron Donald's is that Byron Donald's was

00:15:21.560 in the news this week, making a comment about life for black Americans pre, you know, during

00:15:28.540 Jim Crow.

00:15:29.160 Yes.

00:15:29.380 But he was talking about pre great society America and what life was like.

00:15:33.620 Here's what he, I'm going to play the longer clip of what he said and we'll talk about how

00:15:38.560 they're bastardizing it and him.

00:15:40.280 Uh, let's play Sot six.

00:15:42.700 Growing up, the one thing I knew I wanted to do, and this is not about my father, this

00:15:49.560 is about what I wanted to do, is I wanted to be a father to my son.

00:15:53.900 Wow.

00:15:55.140 And so one of the things that's actually happening in our culture, which you're now starting to

00:16:00.120 see in our politics, is the reinvigoration of black families with younger black men and

00:16:10.180 black women, and that is also helping to breathe the revival of a black middle class in America.

00:16:17.080 You see, during Jim Crow, during Jim Crow, the black family was together.

00:16:23.540 That's right.

00:16:24.440 During Jim Crow, more black people were not just conservative, because black people always

00:16:30.840 have been conservative minded, but more black people voted conservatively.

00:16:35.140 And then H.E.W., Lyndon Johnson, and then you go down that road, and now we are where

00:16:42.840 we are.

00:16:43.480 What's happened in America the last 10 years, and I'll say it because it's my contemporaries,

00:16:47.340 it's Wesley's contemporaries.

00:16:49.340 You're starting to see more black people be married in homes, raising kids.

00:16:57.420 Glenn, what do you make of it?

00:17:00.080 Because to me, I hear that, and I'm like, yeah, that's, I mean, read some Shelby Steele.

00:17:05.020 Like, yes, this has been, this is not a new thought or observation.

00:17:09.460 It's not.

00:17:10.900 And the attack on him is that he said, during Jim Crow, the black family was healthier, as

00:17:16.000 if there was something good about Jim Crow.

00:17:18.780 He wasn't extolling the benefits of Jim Crow.

00:17:21.720 He was pointing out the collapse of the African American family, which has occurred in the

00:17:28.620 post-Jim Crow era.

00:17:30.280 And I mean, he was just making a statement of fact.

00:17:32.560 I mean, when Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the late senator from New York, who, working for the

00:17:37.760 Lyndon Johnson administration in 1965, issued a report on the black family, he was alarmed

00:17:43.740 at the collapse of the black family.

00:17:45.760 And he was pointing at 25% of the babies born to a black woman being born to a woman without

00:17:51.440 a husband.

00:17:52.320 That number is 70% today.

00:17:54.800 Seven zero.

00:17:57.320 Moynihan was writing in 1965, at the end of Jim Crow, things have gotten worse.

00:18:03.340 That's simply a statement of fact.

00:18:05.900 People are putting their head in the sand to the extent that they ignore what is sociologically

00:18:10.920 obvious, which is that it's a devastating indictment of a community and inhibition of that community's

00:18:20.400 ability to reproduce productively itself from generation to generation for the family to

00:18:26.560 have collapsed, the nuclear family, husband, wife, mother, father, raising children.

00:18:31.660 This is a good thing, not a bad thing.

00:18:33.500 It's time-tested through history.

00:18:35.240 And what has happened to the African-American society in that respect is unhealthy and is

00:18:41.220 something to be lamented, in my opinion.

00:18:44.340 And I think, again, that that's a demonstrable statement about how societies reproduce themselves.

00:18:51.640 The family is key.

00:18:52.700 And he was just pointing out that the collapse of the family is a post-Jim Crow phenomenon

00:18:57.100 amongst African-Americans.

00:18:58.340 And that's true.

00:18:59.920 Mm-hmm.

00:19:00.440 Mm-hmm.

00:19:00.740 This is another reason why I love the admissions and late admissions, your book, because you're

00:19:07.160 not speaking about this from some high perch.

00:19:10.180 Like, I've made better choices than all of you, and now I will lecture to you about how

00:19:15.360 you can be a better person like me.

00:19:17.540 You're actually laying it bare on how you did not always make the best choices, and things

00:19:23.400 didn't work out that great in the personal lane for you at every chapter.

00:19:27.580 Um, I mean, you've been incredibly academically successful and professionally successful,

00:19:32.040 but you, you're open about the pain that you've caused in making other decisions.

00:19:36.560 So let's, let me take you back, or let me take you back to the outside of Chicago and

00:19:40.740 a young Glenn, uh, who were, you were arrested after you stole a 61 Chevy that had South Carolina

00:19:48.520 plates.

00:19:49.020 And, um, then, uh, let's see, when you were 17, you impregnated a 15-year-old girl, Charlene,

00:19:58.940 who would ultimately become your wife and you'd have a second child together.

00:20:02.260 But that's, like, automatically we're against the rules of, like, don't, don't have a child

00:20:07.940 before you have a job, right?

00:20:09.460 Like, finish high school.

00:20:11.220 Um, we've talked about this before, we're talking about it with McWhorter and others.

00:20:13.920 You're like, there's certain rules.

00:20:15.080 See, McWhorter does a show with Glenn that's well worth your time, too.

00:20:17.780 So anyway, you were breaking all of them.

00:20:21.720 Well, it was a long time ago, but yes, yes, it's true.

00:20:25.800 Uh, I was a young five, but on the car theft thing, I'll say this in my defense.

00:20:30.560 I wanted to impress a girl.

00:20:33.640 Uh, the car was sitting on a repair lot.

00:20:36.980 Uh, you could start it without a key just by turning the little lever at the ignition.

00:20:42.780 Fooling around, I experimented with it and I got the harebrained idea that I just take this

00:20:47.700 car, hide it somewhere and I'd go around and pick up this girl and I'd impress her and

00:20:52.200 we'd drive off to a quiet place and climb into the back seat and neck and, you know, have

00:20:57.220 a little fun.

00:20:57.920 And I was, I wanted to impress this girl.

00:20:59.760 It was a very, very dumb idea.

00:21:02.280 Uh, and when the cops pulled me over and asked me, you know, for my driver's license, I didn't

00:21:06.940 have one.

00:21:07.540 I was 17 years old without a driver's license, uh, and, uh, whatever.

00:21:12.440 I, and I got taken to jail, uh, and my father came and bailed me out.

00:21:15.880 And my uncle, uh, who was a distinguished lawyer at the height of his career in Chicago, was

00:21:20.440 able to persuade the court to give me a pass, a slap on the wrist.

00:21:24.580 Uh, but, uh, that was, it wasn't as if I was embedded in a car theft ring or whatever,

00:21:30.000 but enough about that.

00:21:31.700 But imagine, imagine if they hadn't given you, you know, like a, if they, if they had

00:21:36.080 thrown the book at you, thank God that didn't happen because your, your life was about to

00:21:40.460 take off.

00:21:41.100 I mean, it's extraordinary.

00:21:42.020 I've been to the South side of Chicago.

00:21:43.420 It is extraordinary to see a kid who grew up there wind up, as I said, the youngest economics

00:21:49.440 tenure professor at Harvard ever.

00:21:51.920 Let me, let me correct that, uh, not the youngest.

00:21:54.140 I was the first African-American tenured in the economics department at Harvard.

00:21:58.500 Oh, first African-American.

00:21:59.920 Okay.

00:22:00.260 So that's, that is not, uh, a resume you see every day with, with your kind of background.

00:22:06.520 And so each of these steps along the way was a, was a learning opportunity for you, but

00:22:10.020 also was fraught, was fraught.

00:22:12.060 And I know some of them didn't work out.

00:22:13.640 So let's talk about the ladies, because this is something I did not know about you, professor.

00:22:18.340 You, uh, you own being a player.

00:22:22.820 And not being the best husband of all time.

00:22:27.180 And I wondered, as I read in particular, because you're, um, after your marriage to Charlene

00:22:33.380 did not work out, but you wound up marrying Linda.

00:22:36.540 But while you were married to Linda, you write about the beginnings of your affair with Pamela,

00:22:42.880 Pamela Foster, uh, who you corresponded with when she was a student at Smith.

00:22:47.860 And you were spending two semesters on leave from Harvard as a visiting faculty member.

00:22:51.500 That's a different place.

00:22:52.720 You guys got together after she graduated and then you write as follows.

00:22:58.180 This is what I'm telling you.

00:22:59.360 This book is like a page turner.

00:23:01.200 It's a little naughty in times.

00:23:03.020 So he writes, so I suggest we continue the conversation up in my room.

00:23:06.440 And she says, yes.

00:23:07.420 When we enter the room, she excuses herself to the bathroom.

00:23:10.600 Finally, she emerges wearing nothing but a bra and a slip with no panties.

00:23:14.880 That night I devoured Pamela Foster.

00:23:18.180 I was voracious.

00:23:19.580 We both were.

00:23:20.680 I was enraptured by her.

00:23:22.580 This is the zenith.

00:23:24.320 I thought this conquest and consummation would be my crowning achievement.

00:23:30.420 You say in the book, you write, I barely tried to keep it quiet.

00:23:34.220 I was constantly making excuses to Linda.

00:23:36.340 I wanted what I wanted, even showing up to professional events with Pamela where colleagues

00:23:41.380 would share distaste.

00:23:43.380 But really what you're saying here is you were kind of hoping for your marriage to end

00:23:48.780 and were, I guess, reckless about the way you were trying to bring it about.

00:23:54.280 So can you talk about that, about your marriage and then this thing with Pamela?

00:23:59.880 My second wife, Charlene, and I divorced shortly after we separated in graduate school and we

00:24:06.160 divorced shortly after and Linda Datcher Lowry, an economist whom I met in graduate school

00:24:13.460 at MIT and who is the mother of our two sons, Glenn II and Nehemiah, became my second wife.

00:24:23.060 And I betrayed her and serially betrayed her, not only with Pamela Foster.

00:24:32.120 Pamela was one, the most significant because of the events that followed, which we haven't

00:24:38.880 discussed in detail as of yet.

00:24:40.300 But Pamela accused me of assaulting her.

00:24:42.660 Pamela, I was keeping in an apartment in the south end of Boston.

00:24:46.060 My quote unquote mistress and we had a fight and a falling out and I ejected her from the

00:24:53.420 apartment and she accused me of assault and I was brought into court and it became a big

00:24:58.120 deal.

00:25:00.060 Eventually the charges were dropped.

00:25:01.740 I denied that I did assault her, but in fact it became news and Linda was humiliated.

00:25:07.240 And that was the culmination of a series of humiliations and betrayals.

00:25:11.960 And those are among the most significant of the confessions that I own up to.

00:25:18.840 Yeah, I had this idea about masculinity.

00:25:21.820 I had this idea about my entitlement as a player, as I characterize myself in the book.

00:25:28.800 And these are not things that I'm proud of.

00:25:31.180 And these are things that I eventually outgrew.

00:25:33.180 Linda stuck with me through thick and thin, through cocaine addiction, through marital infidelity.

00:25:40.820 And we came out the other side of it together.

00:25:45.200 And as I said, raised this young family.

00:25:47.460 Our sons are now in their 30s.

00:25:49.240 They're wonderful human beings.

00:25:51.760 I'm so proud of them.

00:25:52.880 Linda herself passed away from breast cancer in 2011.

00:25:59.320 But yeah, I was that guy.

00:26:02.540 I'm not proud of that.

00:26:04.480 That's part of what I'm owning up to, part of what I'm trying to come to terms with.

00:26:08.360 Uh, and, uh, trying to outlive.

00:26:12.940 Uh, but yeah, I was that guy.

00:26:15.400 Mm-hmm.

00:26:16.020 But I don't, I mean, everyone's got things in their past that they would love a do-over on

00:26:21.420 or that they see as, I may, potentially shameful.

00:26:24.580 But it's so interesting when someone chooses to expose it all because it helps everyone else

00:26:28.460 feel maybe somewhat better about their own life choices.

00:26:31.720 No one's perfect.

00:26:32.500 And to see how much you've accomplished is what makes this so incredibly brave, right?

00:26:38.520 Because they could all have the perfect shiny image of you, or they can understand you're

00:26:42.480 a complex human being, a complex man with a complex past.

00:26:46.280 Uh, it was important to write.

00:26:48.340 I do want to talk about the Pamela thing.

00:26:50.880 Not, you've mentioned what happened.

00:26:52.300 She, she alleged that you abused her and you denied it and she wound up dropping the charges.

00:26:56.640 But it, that wound up, um, coming back to haunt you, right?

00:27:02.140 It was the apartment in which you kept Pamela.

00:27:05.000 Because I actually never knew that you were tapped for and almost did go to work for, um,

00:27:11.620 a job in the Reagan administration under my old pal, Bill Bennett, who I used to have on

00:27:15.660 the Kelly file all the time at Fox news.

00:27:17.300 Great guy.

00:27:18.240 So they were kind of, they had recognized you as this young rising talent, MIT and a young

00:27:23.080 professor, but it being the 1980s, you can't have the, a fair partner in an apartment.

00:27:30.320 And that's kind of how things unraveled.

00:27:33.860 Yeah.

00:27:34.520 Uh, I became friendly with William Crystal, who was an assistant professor at Harvard in

00:27:39.660 the Kennedy school of government when I first got there and who left after Ronald Reagan

00:27:43.820 was reelected in November of 1984 to join the second Reagan administration and became

00:27:49.540 chief of staff to William Bennett, Bill Bennett, author of the book of virtues.

00:27:54.100 And at that time, secretary of education.

00:27:56.900 And when Gary Bauer, uh, stepped down as a deputy, uh, secretary, under secretary of education,

00:28:05.060 uh, Bill Crystal had the idea that I might be a good, uh, person to replace Gary Bauer as

00:28:13.020 under secretary of education.

00:28:14.400 He brought me to the attention of Bill Bennett and Bill Bennett concurred.

00:28:18.260 And they were, uh, prepared to formally nominate me, uh, as, uh, the person to be approved by

00:28:25.300 the Senate, uh, for that, uh, number two position in the department of education.

00:28:30.120 When I was, uh, in the midst of this affair with the secret apartment, uh, where the mistress

00:28:37.280 was being kept.

00:28:38.180 Uh, and I withdrew from the appointment process after the FBI, uh, discovered this apartment

00:28:47.440 apartment and went and interviewed, uh, Pamela Foster, who was living there and interviewed

00:28:51.840 me about it.

00:28:53.180 Um, I didn't want to find out what happens when you don't tell the truth to the FBI during

00:28:56.720 an interview.

00:28:57.140 So I, I owned up to the fact that, uh, my name was on the lease of that apartment, but

00:29:01.580 the fact that what was going on was going on was very evident to everybody, even though

00:29:05.980 nothing was said about it, uh, during the FBI interview.

00:29:08.880 And I decided to withdraw and I called up, uh, Bill Crystal and, uh, told him that I was

00:29:15.020 going to pull out.

00:29:15.700 Um, the day after I called Bill, I had this fight with Pamela at the apartment that ended

00:29:21.820 up with me, uh, ejecting her from the apartment with her, uh, filing charges for assault.

00:29:27.220 And that then became public.

00:29:29.840 Uh, the, the timing was I withdrew from the apartment because of the embarrassment of my

00:29:34.480 affair being discovered, uh, not because of the, uh, uh, assault charge, but it hardly

00:29:39.560 matters because, uh, once, uh, the assault charge became public, um, my reputation was

00:29:45.200 in the toilet.

00:29:47.020 Wow.

00:29:47.920 Wow.

00:29:48.460 That must've been such a low having that publicly exposed and losing this amazing opportunity.

00:29:54.440 And were you, cause you got called by Harvard and you were told, Hey, we're getting a call

00:30:00.000 about these allegations.

00:30:00.800 So was your job also in jeopardy that, that job?

00:30:04.200 Because now, you know, you were, you were thinking you would leave that job and go to

00:30:06.840 the administration.

00:30:08.620 I was going to leave for a year or two, not, not forever.

00:30:12.020 And come back to Harvard as you do when you go into the government and art stood by me,

00:30:16.900 the Kennedy school people after the dust settled, uh, on the scandal.

00:30:24.440 Uh, and it became clear that I was not going to be a convicted felon of a felony assault

00:30:30.220 against a woman.

00:30:31.680 The charges were withdrawn.

00:30:34.060 Uh, Harvard stood by me.

00:30:36.720 Uh, but, uh, uh, yeah, I got the call from the general counsel's office at Harvard because

00:30:44.020 the Boston police had called them, the general counsel office and said, one of your faculty

00:30:48.440 members has been charged and needs to surrender himself voluntarily, or will be forced to come

00:30:55.140 and, uh, arrest him, uh, you know, perhaps at his workplace.

00:31:00.080 Uh, so it was a courtesy from the Boston police to allow this, uh, member of Harvard's faculty

00:31:07.440 to voluntarily, voluntarily surrender himself.

00:31:11.480 Uh, and I did do, uh, charges were dropped subsequently.

00:31:16.160 Yes.

00:31:16.680 But, um, I did have to go through that and it was a terrible humiliation for myself and for

00:31:21.380 my wife.

00:31:22.660 We survived it.

00:31:25.880 Amazingly, amazingly, she, I mean, she must've been a very special person and that's, I want

00:31:31.820 to get to, you know, what we discover later about Linda, but there's something you said

00:31:37.380 in the book reminding me of something that Charlemagne, the God just told me when he came

00:31:42.260 on recently that he actually had a, he too was unfaithful to his wife and they married

00:31:46.740 young early on in the marriage.

00:31:49.040 And he told me that he'd been told specifically in his case, it was by his dad that like only

00:31:56.540 a sucker would be monogamous, would be faithful.

00:32:00.400 And so it was imprinted in his mind from a very young age.

00:32:03.140 Like that's a loser's move.

00:32:04.680 You know, if I'm, if I'm going to be as you use the term in the book, a player, um, I can't

00:32:10.120 be faithful to the woman I marry.

00:32:12.320 So do you, is this more common than I realized?

00:32:14.540 Do you think Glenn?

00:32:15.980 Yeah.

00:32:17.060 I'm sorry to have to report, um, as I tell the story in my own book, my uncle Adler,

00:32:22.860 uh, my mother's brother, who was a notorious womanizer.

00:32:26.080 Uh, he's a graduate of Morehouse college in the 1940s and, uh, got a degree in law from

00:32:33.120 Northwestern university and, and had a brilliant career, uh, as a lawyer in Chicago until he got

00:32:39.420 into some trouble.

00:32:40.260 But in any case, my uncle Adler told me early on, I must've been about 15 years old, that,

00:32:45.780 uh, the most important thing in life was to, if you'll allow me to say this, make him get

00:32:51.740 as much pussy as you can, quote unquote.

00:32:55.560 I don't know if you ever saw the movie, little miss sunshine.

00:32:59.080 Uh, there's a character, Alan Arkin, the grandfather in that movie who has similar advice for his

00:33:05.580 grandson.

00:33:06.080 Uh, and you know, that was the ethos, uh, of that part of the African-American community

00:33:15.400 from which I emerged.

00:33:16.560 That was not an uncommon sentiment.

00:33:18.840 I, I, I'm not going to paint with too broad a brush.

00:33:21.020 And I know that there are many, many, many upstanding and good people and righteous people,

00:33:25.140 uh, coming from the neighborhood that raised me.

00:33:27.600 But this sentiment, uh, that only a fool, uh, allows to pass without exploitation opportunities

00:33:36.040 for sexual gratification.

00:33:37.600 Come on.

00:33:38.420 Not everybody plays by the rules.

00:33:39.940 In fact, nobody who's really smart plays by the rules.

00:33:43.080 Uh, that was the other side of the line.

00:33:45.320 I have this metaphor in the book about the line, about crossing the line, about living

00:33:49.080 on the right side of the line.

00:33:50.740 Well, there was another side of the line and a lot of people straight.

00:33:54.240 Um, and my uncle Adler was one of them.

00:33:57.100 And so was I.

00:33:58.740 I mean, you weren't alone.

00:34:00.160 We, you mentioned the black community, but who's most infamous for this?

00:34:03.960 Our, our former president JFK.

00:34:06.060 And it's well known that his father said to the boys, like, yeah, you know, you get married,

00:34:10.800 married to a nice girl, and then you can have other women on the side.

00:34:13.420 That's, that's the way it's done.

00:34:14.580 So that kind of, this is the approach to life.

00:34:16.580 So you're in some good company, I guess, on this, but unlike many men, you actually wound

00:34:21.720 up doing some soul searching on it and the way you did it is actually kind of heartbreaking

00:34:26.560 and very sweet, but sad.

00:34:28.860 Um, I'm going to pick it up there.

00:34:30.140 I'm going to do a quick break and then we'll come back and we'll talk about that piece of

00:34:33.100 the amazing Glenn Lowry's personal story by this book, Late Admissions.

00:34:39.220 So Glenn, Linda died, as you point out, of cancer and the book goes through the fact that after

00:34:52.080 her death, you cleaned out her office and found two things, a letter that you wrote for your

00:34:59.700 10th anniversary with her and a self-help book, which was really telling.

00:35:05.460 Can you explain what happened when you saw that self-help book and what, what was in

00:35:09.660 it and how it made you feel?

00:35:12.220 The self-help book, I don't remember the author or the title, was about forgiveness, how to

00:35:18.520 forgive.

00:35:20.280 Uh, it was on her bookshelf in her office at Tufts University, where she was for many years

00:35:25.300 a professor of economics.

00:35:26.620 And, uh, my son, Glenn, and I had gone to retrieve her things from the office.

00:35:35.900 Uh, we took our time packing up that office and going through her memorabilia.

00:35:41.480 And yes, I did find a framed, uh, copy of the letter, not a copy, the letter that I had

00:35:46.840 written by hand to her, um, on the occasion of our 10th wedding anniversary in 1993.

00:35:54.480 That was sitting on her shelf and not far from it was the self-help book about forgiveness.

00:35:59.940 And so I opened it and I began to leaf through it.

00:36:02.640 And I noticed that it was heavily annotated where she had spent hours and hours with this

00:36:08.000 book and she had made comments in the margins.

00:36:11.000 And I, as I perused it, discovered that the comments were about me often about things that

00:36:18.240 had happened in our lives between us, injuries that I had done her, humiliations that she

00:36:24.240 had endured and she had made a study, had made a project, uh, out of the, uh, what she felt

00:36:33.540 to be the necessity to forgive her weyward husband.

00:36:37.600 And I sat there full of shame, tears in my eyes, leafing through this book and realizing

00:36:45.040 what a woman it was that I had had the good fortune of meeting, marrying, and who was the

00:36:52.800 loving mother of our sons.

00:36:54.900 And what a cad I had been.

00:36:57.100 What an idiot.

00:36:57.700 What a fool.

00:36:59.140 Uh, what a callow, superficial, selfish, narcissistic idiot I had been to put this woman through what

00:37:09.100 I had put her through.

00:37:10.420 Uh, those things became clear to me, as I said, with that little book in my hand.

00:37:14.680 Um, what a woman is right.

00:37:18.960 I mean, it's, there's something really so lovely about this woman knowing that she was suffering

00:37:24.980 and that her marriage was not what she wanted.

00:37:28.480 Reading a book on how to manage it for herself, how to change herself so that she could deal

00:37:34.920 with it better.

00:37:35.820 Like there's some, it's sad and it's sweet and it's actually ultimately extremely loving.

00:37:40.280 And I bet she'd be, I bet she'd be really proud of you that you actually wound up really

00:37:46.620 reflecting on all of this and on yourself and thinking about what is it, what does it

00:37:51.120 mean?

00:37:51.400 And what does it say about the measure of a man?

00:37:53.240 You write, you write about some of it in the conclusion you write.

00:37:57.500 I love this.

00:37:58.460 You write, I fought the enemy within, but in truth, he was no intruder, no stranger.

00:38:04.080 I cannot disavow his actions any more than I would deny my own because his actions are

00:38:09.720 my actions.

00:38:10.960 I am that enemy within the game goes on though.

00:38:14.900 I have fallen away from religion.

00:38:16.440 I've never shaken the feeling that I am a fallen man.

00:38:20.180 I retain a sense of awe when reflecting on the meaning of this life.

00:38:26.760 What do you think about Glenn when you, with all that you've been through and all that you

00:38:30.680 confess to, what do you think about on the meaning of life?

00:38:34.080 I think that one of the greatest challenges that we face as conscious, reflective, spiritual

00:38:45.220 beings is to somehow get our minds around where we fit within this vast creation, this vast

00:38:56.600 universe in which we inhabit.

00:38:59.600 And I was a born again Christian and I fell away from it.

00:39:05.580 And I try to talk about that in the book.

00:39:09.280 And there are superficial reasons, I think, that I fell away.

00:39:13.180 And then there are more subtle reasons.

00:39:14.680 And I don't want to spoil my potential reader's joy at discovering the story that I'm telling

00:39:20.300 in the book by saying much more about that.

00:39:22.680 But I got to a certain point, the intellectual, the MIT PhD, the rationalist, the modern man,

00:39:30.960 where I found it hard to continue to credit the incredible claims that we as Christians

00:39:37.040 make about the divinity of Jesus Christ, about a man born of a woman who nevertheless is the

00:39:42.520 son of God, crucified dead and buried, raised from the dead and living on to this day.

00:39:47.880 Very powerful claims that I found difficult in my rationality and in my modernism and in

00:39:57.700 my, perhaps in my arrogance and conceit, I found difficult to credit.

00:40:04.740 And so I had a crisis.

00:40:05.860 Out of that crisis, I have yet fully to emerge, and I continue to struggle with these great

00:40:13.140 questions.

00:40:13.800 But I am quite sure that the quest for an answer to those questions is a noble human quest.

00:40:21.240 I don't take at all lightly the importance that people give to questions of belief.

00:40:31.080 I call myself not an atheist, but an agnostic.

00:40:33.540 I have my doubts, but I am absolutely certain that this is a noble quest, a quest to try

00:40:42.160 to establish a relationship with the creator of the universe.

00:40:46.780 And that's kind of what I'm gesturing at in those concluding remarks.

00:40:51.940 It's when you say you're questioning, which makes me think many people say that the Q in

00:40:57.460 LGBTQ is questioning, not queer.

00:40:59.300 So you are kind of LGBTQ now, Glenn, you're questioning, and that's totally fair.

00:41:06.520 I mean, I think most of us who have faith are also questioning.

00:41:10.540 We might also fall under the Q questioning, not the Q queer.

00:41:14.060 And it is an ongoing journey.

00:41:17.020 Well, Megan, if I can, I just want to tell this story very briefly.

00:41:19.980 One of my friends, the late great theologian, Richard John Newhouse, took me aside.

00:41:26.420 I went to him with my crisis of faith.

00:41:28.600 I said, you know, it's like when you're on the beach in the summer, you look up at the

00:41:32.140 clouds and you're sure you see the profile of Abraham Lincoln reflected in the clouds.

00:41:36.600 You look away, take a bite of your sandwich.

00:41:38.720 And when you look back again, you can't find it.

00:41:40.780 You can't find it.

00:41:41.420 And I almost feel like that about Jesus.

00:41:43.200 I can't find him.

00:41:43.960 I can't find him.

00:41:44.760 And Richard, a Catholic theologian, Father Richard John Newhouse, got close with many

00:41:52.040 powerful people, including Cardinal Ratzinger, who became Pope in the Vatican.

00:41:57.600 He turned to me and he said, he laughed.

00:42:00.400 And he said, you think you're the only one?

00:42:02.780 He said, you thought it was going to be easy?

00:42:05.200 He says, there is faith inside that doubt of yours, inside the faith that's inside that

00:42:09.780 doubt.

00:42:10.120 And it's a never ending struggle that we Christians are engaged in.

00:42:16.540 You thought it was going to be easy.

00:42:17.580 It's not going to be easy.

00:42:19.140 It was not meant to be easy.

00:42:21.440 And it's not easy.

00:42:23.780 Well, well said.

00:42:25.940 I've got to ask you about Ibram Kendi, because when you came on in 2020, we hadn't even,

00:42:32.780 we didn't even have video back then.

00:42:33.940 It was still just an audio podcast.

00:42:35.460 You're one of our earliest guests.

00:42:36.820 We talked about the rise of Kendi and D'Angelo and all these, you know, race baiters on the

00:42:43.860 left.

00:42:44.620 And he was beloved at the time.

00:42:46.700 I mean, his how to be an anti-racist was flying off the shelves and he's been celebrated

00:42:50.640 in academia.

00:42:51.860 And extraordinarily, the New York Times just did a deep dive piece on him.

00:42:57.960 I don't know.

00:42:58.340 I assume you saw it.

00:42:59.600 Yeah, I saw it.

00:43:00.960 Didn't reflect particularly well on him and really talked about how people working under

00:43:05.020 him, don't respect him, don't believe in the mission, think he's full of hubris and

00:43:09.720 maybe an empty suit.

00:43:11.000 He's had ongoing problems and questions about the funding for his projects.

00:43:14.900 So where are we now as we talk in, you know, the beginnings of summer 2024 on Kendi versus

00:43:22.020 where we were in 2020?

00:43:22.940 Well, I think it's poetic justice that he has experienced a breathtaking fall from grace.

00:43:36.260 It's true that his ideas had their season, but they weren't especially compelling ideas.

00:43:43.400 In fact, you know, it's easy.

00:43:44.940 It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

00:43:46.320 They were superficial and silly ideas and they were trendy and they caught the imagination

00:43:54.540 of a certain segment of the American elite for a season.

00:44:01.600 But there was not and there is not any real there there.

00:44:06.320 And that became clear soon enough, the interminable piece in the New York Times magazine.

00:44:15.780 I mean, I don't know.

00:44:16.340 It looks like it's 10,000 words or something.

00:44:18.740 It goes on forever.

00:44:21.160 I think it's an effort not just to rehabilitate Kendi.

00:44:26.520 I mean, he doesn't come off looking all that good, notwithstanding the best efforts of the

00:44:30.740 author to present him in his most sympathetic light possible, I think.

00:44:34.820 But also is a kind of effort to salvage these ideas, the DEI mania, which in not only Kendi's

00:44:45.300 case has been shown to rest on a shaky foundation.

00:44:52.140 And I don't think it's going to work because I don't, you know, I mean, Kendi, frankly, was

00:44:58.200 and is an empty suit.

00:45:00.080 There's no real depth there.

00:45:01.280 There's no real resonance in these books.

00:45:02.900 There's no profound analysis.

00:45:05.000 There's no learning.

00:45:06.180 You know, again, I'll stop.

00:45:07.300 I'll stop because I don't want to seem to just be picking on somebody.

00:45:12.080 But that's what I think.

00:45:14.660 I think you could say he got in over his head.

00:45:19.480 Fifty five million fell on him in a very short period of time.

00:45:23.500 And he didn't have the chops, either intellectual or managerial, to make the best use of it.

00:45:31.000 He became a target.

00:45:32.340 And it's true.

00:45:32.920 He did become a target of a lot of criticisms, including from people like me.

00:45:37.100 But I stand by the claim that there's no there there.

00:45:43.440 There was never any depth, any resonance, anything that was profound, that was lasting.

00:45:50.600 There was no meat.

00:45:52.140 Where's the beef?

00:45:52.900 There was no beef.

00:45:54.480 And that's, I think, evident now.

00:45:57.140 Lastly, you write about how you admired Donald Trump.

00:46:04.500 You enjoyed watching his run for president, but that you were not happy with J6.

00:46:10.340 Now you have a binary choice, basically.

00:46:12.940 I mean, I guess you could go for RFK or Jill Stein.

00:46:16.280 Something tells me our economics friend is not going to go for Jill Stein or Cornel West.

00:46:20.760 But how are you thinking about presidential politics right now?

00:46:24.420 So I'm not saying who I'm voting for.

00:46:26.160 I'm saying who I'm not voting for.

00:46:27.440 I am not voting for Joseph Robinette Biden.

00:46:29.740 I can't bring myself to do that for a lot of reasons.

00:46:34.380 And the most recent of which is that speech you gave at Morehouse College, which I found

00:46:38.700 to be insulting to African-Americans.

00:46:41.160 We could go into the details.

00:46:42.440 But in any case, I'm going to find somebody to vote for, and it's not going to be Joseph

00:46:46.500 Robinette Biden.

00:46:47.780 Could it be Donald Trump?

00:46:49.060 Well, you know, if I announce that, that would be making news on your show, Megan.

00:46:53.080 And I'm not prepared to.

00:46:54.240 I'm not prepared to do that.

00:46:55.540 My stock answer is if I were going to vote for Trump, I wouldn't tell anybody that I

00:47:00.900 was going to do it because it's such an outrageous thing for an Ivy League professor to admit to

00:47:06.880 wanting to do.

00:47:07.520 But I understand why Trump is ahead in the polls.

00:47:12.880 And, you know, I'm keeping my powder dry for the time being.

00:47:16.980 I'll let you know when I'm prepared to come out of the closet.

00:47:19.760 You are welcome back any time for that, for that late admission or any other.

00:47:26.000 The one and only Glenn Lowry, your godsend.

00:47:28.300 Thank you so much.

00:47:29.620 Make sure you support Glenn by the book.

00:47:31.220 It's called Late Admissions, Confessions of a Black Conservative.

00:47:34.180 What a treasure he is.

00:47:35.400 And when we come back, London Roberts, the mother of Hunter Biden's child that the White

00:47:42.040 House for years refused to acknowledge.

00:47:48.480 We've been following the trial of Hunter Biden on charges.

00:47:51.700 He illegally purchased and possessed a gun while he was abusing drugs back in 2018.

00:47:55.980 Well, that same year, just weeks before he bought that gun, a young woman from Arkansas gave birth

00:48:03.060 to his child, a little girl.

00:48:06.060 For years, Hunter Biden denied that he was the father of Navy Joan Roberts until a DNA test proved

00:48:12.840 otherwise.

00:48:14.340 After that, Hunter Biden finally started to support the child financially, only to come back and ask

00:48:19.780 to pay much less than he had originally promised.

00:48:23.380 Through it all, President Joe Biden, who prides himself on telling us about what a close-knit

00:48:27.920 family he has, refused to acknowledge this little girl at all.

00:48:33.080 After Joe Biden was elected president at Christmastime in 2021 and 2022, the Bidens decorated a White

00:48:38.640 House fireplace with stockings stitched with the names of six grandchildren, no stocking for

00:48:45.300 their seventh little Navy.

00:48:47.040 In fact, as recently as April 2023, President Biden suggested on camera that he only had

00:48:54.240 six, not seven, grandchildren.

00:48:57.240 But last year, little Navy's mother, London Roberts, and Hunter reached a new agreement.

00:49:04.040 And President Biden finally acknowledged Navy in a statement put out late on a Friday on a

00:49:11.180 summer evening.

00:49:12.300 London Roberts is out later this summer with a tell-all book.

00:49:17.420 It is called Out of the Shadows, My Life Inside the Wild World of Hunter Biden, and it's available

00:49:23.800 for pre-order now.

00:49:25.540 And it is riveting.

00:49:27.320 London joins me now.

00:49:29.020 London, thank you so much for being here.

00:49:31.440 Hi, Ms. Kelly.

00:49:32.060 Thank you for having me.

00:49:33.780 Oh, you bet.

00:49:34.360 Yeah, you call me Megan.

00:49:35.780 So let's go back.

00:49:37.000 The first meeting you had with Hunter Biden is so telling and so interesting.

00:49:42.640 You were at, I mean, explain it to me, because I read, like, you're talking about the Swedish

00:49:48.160 embassy, but he had offices in there, and you were there for a party.

00:49:52.300 What was happening at the Swedish embassy?

00:49:54.280 And talk about how the first word you heard out of his mouth and how you crossed the door

00:49:58.560 and what you saw.

00:49:59.100 You know, a lot was happening at the Swedish embassy, but meeting him, like, coming across

00:50:08.480 the door and meeting him, and he was in a dark place, and he was in a dark room at that

00:50:13.680 time, you know, doing things that he's been very candid about doing back in those days.

00:50:19.480 And you wouldn't think that somebody who was doing those things would act the way that

00:50:25.640 he did, but he was, he jumped up.

00:50:27.500 He was very genuine, very charming, very intelligent.

00:50:31.640 You know, he was able to have a conversation and make you laugh and real easy to get along

00:50:38.220 with.

00:50:40.280 Not what you would think.

00:50:43.900 And you write in the book, it's pretty extraordinary that you hear on the other side of the doorway

00:50:50.280 the F word.

00:50:51.500 So you go in, you push the door open, wondering what's happening there, and you see a man sitting

00:50:55.280 in an office chair, leaning over a small desk, meticulously organizing a series of small

00:50:59.440 glass tubes and copper strands.

00:51:01.300 He looks determined.

00:51:02.480 He isn't wearing after-party clothes like everyone else.

00:51:06.060 Instead, he's sitting there in brightly colored boxer briefs with parrots all over them.

00:51:11.220 I'm intrigued.

00:51:12.400 He turns in his chair and catches me in his stare, his gaze intense with furrowed brows

00:51:17.360 and the most beautiful blue-gray eyes I've ever seen.

00:51:20.100 And what an amazing thing, London, to think that man who you met in that moment would become

00:51:26.580 the father of Little Navy, your only child, I mean, your only child, at least soon at that

00:51:32.760 point.

00:51:33.080 Right.

00:51:33.500 So when you look back at that moment, what made you stay and continue talking to this man

00:51:39.880 when you met him in his boxers with drug paraphernalia everywhere?

00:51:43.940 Well, I mean, it's like I said, I was intrigued.

00:51:48.320 This guy, he, you could tell, like, and I speak throughout the book about this empathy that

00:51:55.040 I have, you know, for people and people who are suffering.

00:51:58.100 And Hunter was battling a demon at that time with addiction.

00:52:03.000 And, but he wasn't just, you know, your average Joe.

00:52:06.840 Like he was, he was so smart and, and so intelligent and easy to talk to.

00:52:11.840 And he, he has a way of making you feel like you matter and, you know, and he cares.

00:52:18.040 And it could be just in a few minutes, you know, it could be, you just met this person

00:52:22.480 and he comes across as so genuine and so sincere.

00:52:26.400 And you wouldn't believe that, you know, he was doing the things that he was doing and

00:52:30.900 he was battling that addiction because he, he was, there was so much good and so much

00:52:36.280 great potential that came with him.

00:52:38.900 He was older than you by some 20 years.

00:52:42.640 I think he has a daughter from when he was younger, who's only a couple of years younger

00:52:48.540 than you, right?

00:52:49.180 Or is she, is she younger than you or older than you?

00:52:50.880 But you're within a couple of years.

00:52:53.280 Uh, yeah, I don't know her exact age.

00:52:55.900 I'm, I'm older by some years, I think.

00:52:59.040 Okay.

00:52:59.500 Yeah.

00:52:59.780 So, I mean, it's pretty tight.

00:53:01.820 So two and a half years, something like that.

00:53:06.940 I don't know.

00:53:07.920 It's something.

00:53:08.520 Anyway, my team is trying to give me the information.

00:53:10.320 Anyway.

00:53:10.640 Um, so you, you throw caution to the wind.

00:53:14.080 I think it could be fair to say, and you wound up, it was not a one night stand.

00:53:18.220 Is that correct?

00:53:19.020 Is that, I think that's one of the misconceptions about this relationship that he has helped

00:53:22.920 feed.

00:53:24.180 True.

00:53:24.780 Um, and, and you'll learn in the book, like, you know, it was an on and off again thing

00:53:27.920 and it lasted, you know, over a year.

00:53:31.300 And so when you were with him, cause it's actually kind of interesting.

00:53:33.900 You were with him at the same period of time that he's now being cross examined, uh, over

00:53:39.300 not he personally, cause he hasn't taken the stand, but that is, is at issue in his criminal

00:53:43.660 case.

00:53:44.260 And you're very open to the book about how you did observe, I think it's fair to say

00:53:49.980 rampant drug use by him and talk openly about just how bad it got.

00:53:55.300 Can you give us an idea of what you saw?

00:53:59.140 Um, there's actually, there's actually a chapter, um, in the book that I reflected on a night that

00:54:06.600 it got, it got pretty dark and, um, it got pretty bad.

00:54:10.680 And I, I worried for, for Hunter's life and, um, I, I speak, I speak about that.

00:54:17.500 I'm very candid about it, um, in the book and, you know, even, you know, his addiction

00:54:22.540 was so bad.

00:54:23.400 I think I even say in the book that, you know, I wonder if Hunter remembers that night.

00:54:27.980 I wonder if he even knows, you know, what, what exactly he went through.

00:54:33.280 What, what was the drug?

00:54:34.580 I mean, I know that there's been a couple of different ones with him.

00:54:38.580 Uh, the, the drug that he was using was a crack cocaine.

00:54:43.320 Mm-hmm.

00:54:44.540 Uh, you write in the book, first of all, you talk about how, you know, you saw him even

00:54:49.740 on the Amtrak going to the urinal every 15 minutes, which is a sign.

00:54:53.760 I mean, I, I know that just from my time living in New York that especially guys, but it could

00:54:58.000 be girls too, who are going to the bathroom every 15 minutes.

00:55:00.300 They're not going there to use the facilities in the way the rest of us do.

00:55:04.580 But you write about watching him suffering after, you know, taking a lot of drugs and

00:55:10.380 saying, it's bitterly painful knowing that someone I care so much about, someone with

00:55:13.960 so much potential and generosity and brilliance is struggling with this demon of addiction.

00:55:18.220 I cry, wondering if he's even struggling at all anymore, or if he's just given up and

00:55:23.840 let the demon take everything.

00:55:25.380 The endless night finally gives way to dawn.

00:55:27.700 Hunter stirs and it looks like the demon has lost this round.

00:55:31.860 But then he opens his mouth.

00:55:34.040 Get me my backpack.

00:55:35.020 I need my Coke.

00:55:36.340 No good morning.

00:55:37.120 No what happened last night.

00:55:38.360 The first words from his mouth show the demon didn't lose.

00:55:43.100 He actually won.

00:55:44.540 He took Hunter to the brink of death and then let him return to us just to torture him all

00:55:49.860 over again.

00:55:51.800 I mean, this sounds like it was just about as bad as it could get.

00:55:55.520 And you had to be thinking at the time, like, what do I do?

00:55:59.500 Right?

00:55:59.720 Like, you don't, what were you thinking about how you fit into this picture?

00:56:03.240 Right.

00:56:05.280 And, and I think that so many people, um, it's, I believe Hunter or someone has said

00:56:11.380 before that, you know, everyone knows somebody that has suffered from addiction.

00:56:16.000 And I believe that everybody in some way has been affected by it.

00:56:18.980 And, um, this is kind of one of those moments where you can resonate with people who, who have

00:56:25.380 cared about someone who was battling an addiction.

00:56:28.480 And, you know, there's, there's people out there today that battle with people who are

00:56:33.800 battling with addiction and, and they suffered that silent cry so much because it's, it's,

00:56:39.680 you feel helpless.

00:56:41.080 There's, there's nothing, you know, that, um, that you can do in that moment.

00:56:45.740 And it's like, you know, Hunter was very, has been very candid about his addiction.

00:56:50.140 And, you know, during the time of it, he was, he was very candid and would own it.

00:56:55.500 You know, that was his addiction.

00:56:56.580 And it was, it was no one else's and, you know, no one was to blame for it.

00:57:00.520 And, um, that was something that he took full responsibility for.

00:57:05.700 And so there was, there was nothing you can do.

00:57:08.460 And it's, it's, um, it hurts.

00:57:11.580 It's sad.

00:57:13.740 It's gotta be scary.

00:57:15.820 Um, and I, there's an extraordinary passage in the book where you talk about how he warned

00:57:22.160 you what was coming your way, you know, he warned you.

00:57:26.580 It's a pretty extraordinary thing.

00:57:28.000 You, you write about how, uh, you're in the shower and you write, I'm trying to keep shampoo

00:57:33.040 suds from my eyes when there's a little pause.

00:57:35.640 And I hear him say, you know, honey, you've got a real problem.

00:57:40.320 What?

00:57:40.760 I managed to ask with that vague feeling.

00:57:43.100 He's about to say something he'd rather not, but he knows he has to anyway.

00:57:46.680 You're in love with me.

00:57:48.740 Love?

00:57:49.220 I hadn't even considered it.

00:57:50.420 You think to yourself, but now here in the shower, he's claiming I'm in love with him.

00:57:54.480 There's barely a pause before he finishes.

00:57:57.260 I'm going to hurt you.

00:57:59.200 I hurt everyone who loves me.

00:58:01.700 Wow.

00:58:03.000 Now many women would have run out the door at this point, London.

00:58:08.740 So why didn't you?

00:58:12.560 Um, I think in that moment, he, he was right.

00:58:16.240 And I had, you know, I talk about throughout the book, this, this, this, I wasn't, I wasn't

00:58:26.120 really resonating with my feelings and my emotions.

00:58:29.720 Um, like most people do.

00:58:31.120 I was, I was, um, I wasn't attached to them.

00:58:35.060 And, and so it's like, I would, I would just, you know, go with the flow with things.

00:58:41.100 And that was always my norm.

00:58:42.780 And then, you know, you're hit with, you know, you're in love with me.

00:58:45.540 And it's like, you know, um, I'm watching you battle addiction and I'm, I'm watching,

00:58:51.680 you know, I'm caring about you and, and things like that.

00:58:54.720 And, um, I stuck around for that because, uh, I think he was right when, when you do love

00:59:03.460 somebody and you care about somebody, no matter what they go through, you know, you,

00:59:06.980 you stick with them through it.

00:59:09.260 And, um, I think that's what I was doing.

00:59:11.760 You wound up working for him.

00:59:13.180 You met, uh, we talked about how you met, but then you wound up working as a, as an assistant

00:59:17.120 at his Rosemont Seneca company.

00:59:19.420 Is that right?

00:59:20.220 Yes, ma'am.

00:59:21.040 Yes, ma'am.

00:59:21.540 Yeah.

00:59:21.740 So you, you grew up in Arkansas.

00:59:23.260 I was just spending a minute on your background, but you knew him.

00:59:25.560 I mean, you knew him a little bit.

00:59:26.780 Again, it wasn't a one night stand and even the relationship prior to all this, it wasn't,

00:59:31.380 it wasn't all, you know, sex.

00:59:33.460 It was, there was also a business piece to it.

00:59:36.000 Um, so you grew up in Arkansas, you have a good mom and dad, but help us understand how

00:59:42.220 you got to the point of accepting this kind of a relationship, right?

00:59:44.940 Like, were you insecure?

00:59:47.340 We had, you had negative experiences with men prior to this?

00:59:51.720 No, it's, um, honestly, I didn't, I've, I've tried to explain it so many ways and I don't

01:00:00.480 think there is any explanation because the things like now, um, I talk about, you know,

01:00:05.640 relationships after and prior to, like, there are things in those relationships that I would

01:00:10.540 have not tolerated, but like with Hunter, um, I, I went with the flow.

01:00:16.460 I, I accepted him for who he was and what came with him.

01:00:20.700 And then something massive happened, which was you, you became pregnant and this, one of

01:00:29.740 the wacky stories in the book, there's a fair amount in there that's like, Whoa, wait, what?

01:00:33.520 Tell us what happened with your cell phones.

01:00:35.660 The night you found out you were pregnant.

01:00:39.720 Um, I had two cell phones, which is also, um, I still do to this day, but I had two cell phones

01:00:46.440 at the time, um, because my Arkansas phone had a cellular data that didn't pick up at the place

01:00:52.300 that I was living in DC.

01:00:53.640 So, um, I got a different, um, I got sprint and AT&T to even out the data and everyone

01:01:00.100 could reach me.

01:01:00.840 But, um, that night they both at the same time crashed and in front of me and my friends.

01:01:10.960 Um, and what did the screens look like when they were crashing?

01:01:16.140 Um, you know how they'll go like black with those like lines or, and stuff across them,

01:01:21.040 the like green and purplish looking lines.

01:01:24.180 Uh, that's what's like a total meltdown.

01:01:26.720 Correct.

01:01:27.160 Like a total meltdown.

01:01:28.240 So in you, the next day you go and get a new phone, right.

01:01:31.980 And you are able to like link it up with your cloud.

01:01:34.380 And what do you discover?

01:01:35.480 Yes.

01:01:35.720 Um, a lot of stuff is, is gone from, um, my iCloud had it not been backed up or, or whatever,

01:01:44.060 but just about everything with Hunter was gone.

01:01:47.760 So what do you think happened there?

01:01:52.300 That is still up in the air.

01:01:54.800 That's something that, um, I can't, I can't explain.

01:01:57.780 I don't know exactly what happened.

01:02:01.200 Do you think given that, you know, he was at that point, the son of the former

01:02:05.640 vice president, there were government forces trying to protect him potentially here.

01:02:11.680 You know, you always wonder that because, um, especially like hearing all these conspiracies

01:02:16.940 about, about things and how they happen and especially with politics.

01:02:20.780 So you always wonder that.

01:02:23.320 And that's always been in the back of my mind was, you know, somebody trying to protect

01:02:27.420 him and how far would they go to do that?

01:02:30.580 It had to be very disconcerting.

01:02:32.880 So now this happens with your phone.

01:02:35.440 So that's weird.

01:02:36.520 And you find out you're pregnant with the former vice president's grandchild.

01:02:42.080 That's really kind of that.

01:02:44.120 That's a realization that's got to hit you at some point.

01:02:46.920 Right.

01:02:47.480 And you've got to tell Hunter.

01:02:49.660 So my understanding from the book is when you told him initially, he was stunned, but

01:02:55.360 he said the right things like, okay, it's up to you what to do.

01:02:58.880 And I'll stand by you in all ways.

01:03:01.560 But the truth is he didn't.

01:03:04.600 He changed his tune and pretty much did a 180 on you pretty soon thereafter.

01:03:10.740 Right.

01:03:12.220 Right.

01:03:12.640 And I think that's how did you figure out he was not going to be standing by you?

01:03:18.080 Um, well, you know, he was at one point, you know, supposed to go, I talk about in the

01:03:23.560 book, he was supposed to go to like an ultrasound with me and didn't show up.

01:03:26.800 But, you know, it's still at the same time, we still met up, um, after, you know, he knew

01:03:31.400 that I was pregnant and we had had that discussion and, and we talked about things.

01:03:35.600 And I knew like he, there were ways that he would deflect it as, as he did his addiction

01:03:41.480 during that time.

01:03:42.220 And, um, then he started to just ghost it and avoid it.

01:03:49.560 And so I knew the right thing to do was to come home and be surrounded by my family and

01:03:54.920 get through that time.

01:03:56.800 He started, according to the book, making not so subtle hints about how tough things

01:04:03.280 were hit for him financially.

01:04:05.560 So what do you think he's trying to do there?

01:04:09.220 Um, I was hurt at that time because I felt like he thought that I was after his money

01:04:16.260 or after him, like I did this on purpose or, or something like that.

01:04:20.680 And, um, um, I became defensive.

01:04:22.700 I was, uh, that, that upset me.

01:04:26.260 And, um, I think was the first time I kind of got angry with him.

01:04:34.060 And he, I mean, at that point, were you thinking, oh boy, you know, he's not gonna, not gonna support

01:04:40.040 this child.

01:04:41.480 Right.

01:04:43.800 Right.

01:04:44.160 I was thinking he was looking for, um, you know, a way out of it.

01:04:46.820 Did you ever have to ask, consider not, not having Navy, like not going through with the

01:04:53.720 pregnancy?

01:04:57.660 Did I consider it?

01:04:59.580 Yeah.

01:05:00.600 That was something that, um, I just, I couldn't do.

01:05:04.480 I, uh, you know, I, I think what, whatever woman wants to do with, with her body and things

01:05:11.480 that I stay out of it, that's their business, but I couldn't do it.

01:05:16.600 And, um, that was, that was really hard for me, really hard because I felt like the, is

01:05:25.220 it the easiest way out?

01:05:26.580 You know, is that, is that, will that make all the problems go away?

01:05:30.220 But I can't imagine a world without my daughter in it.

01:05:32.880 I can't.

01:05:33.540 And, and even the mere thought of her not being here, just like it, it's devastating.

01:05:42.000 I can't, I can't think of a world without her.

01:05:45.340 It is amazing when you see women who could have made the opposite choice.

01:05:48.220 I mean, technically most people, women can make the opposite choice and, but didn't, but

01:05:52.580 chose to have the child.

01:05:53.620 And then you see these amazingly beautiful, sweet little beings running around and in Navy's

01:06:00.320 case with the beautiful blonde hair and the lovely little wave.

01:06:04.040 And you think, my God, what are we doing?

01:06:07.320 Like, my God, how is it a choice to end this child's life just as it was beginning and good

01:06:13.100 for you for not doing right.

01:06:15.220 And I hope that, you know, with, with telling my story that, um, women who find themselves

01:06:20.400 in that predicament can, can use this story to, you know, do, do this, do exactly what I've

01:06:27.180 done and, and it, it changed their life just like it has mine.

01:06:32.080 So you go through with the pregnancy and then the next thing we know, Hunter is publicly denying

01:06:40.280 that she's his child after she's born and he is dismissing you as he's not even sure if

01:06:49.540 you guys ever had sex.

01:06:50.400 He never actually, he says to a representative that that never happened.

01:06:53.580 So you're being painted in the media.

01:06:56.300 I remember this as some nutcase, you know, some, some girl from Arkansas, who the hell

01:07:01.520 knows who she is, who is just making up this pregnancy and his father, his fatherhood of

01:07:08.740 Navy.

01:07:09.220 So what was that like for you?

01:07:11.180 Um, it was, it was a pretty dark time because, um, I can't, I can't speak for, you know, him

01:07:19.420 and, and his decisions and why he's done things that he's done.

01:07:24.280 You know, that's, that's his story and, and his decisions are for him to tell.

01:07:28.960 I can't, I can't speak on that, but I can say that, um, I wasn't expecting it.

01:07:35.140 I guess I always thought that he would step up and do the right thing because I, I thought

01:07:41.380 of him as that type of person that would, I always saw the good in Hunter and, um, I

01:07:45.860 always thought that he would step up and do the right thing.

01:07:47.940 So I was kind of blindsided.

01:07:49.080 I felt like when, um, when it was dismissed and, you know, um, he claimed that he didn't

01:07:56.900 even have any recollection of me and stuff.

01:07:59.600 I wanted to think, you know, is that real?

01:08:01.580 Did that, did he, did he really not remember me?

01:08:05.540 Was his addiction worse?

01:08:07.240 Well, I don't, I would say worse than I thought, but I mean, was that a symptom of his addiction

01:08:12.180 during that time?

01:08:12.960 But at the same time, like, I know my story and I know, I know my truth.

01:08:16.760 I know what I went through and, and that is something that I can, I can speak on and I

01:08:21.720 can say, you know, how, how it made me feel to hear those things.

01:08:27.260 Here's an excerpt from his book, speaking about you and potentially others in soundbite 20.

01:08:34.300 And the other woman I'd been with during rampages, since my divorce were hardly the dating type.

01:08:39.360 We would satisfy our immediate needs and little else.

01:08:42.300 I'm not proud of it.

01:08:43.420 It's why I would later challenge in court, the woman from Arkansas who had a baby in

01:08:48.120 2018 and claimed the child was mine.

01:08:50.980 I had no recollection of our encounter.

01:08:53.520 That's how little connection I had with anyone.

01:08:55.980 I was a mess, but a mess I've taken responsibility for.

01:09:01.280 What do you make of that London?

01:09:03.100 That some woman in Arkansas and claimed the child was mine, hardly the dating type.

01:09:08.440 Um, I mean, how would that make any woman feel, especially, um, you know, when that, that's

01:09:18.160 the father of their child saying that it's, it's, it's hurtful.

01:09:21.980 It's hurtful to hear those things.

01:09:23.420 And, you know, in the book, I describe how I feel when, when all of this stuff, you know,

01:09:29.440 comes to life from the New Yorker to, uh, his memoir and, and things like that, it, there

01:09:35.440 are some, there are some chapters where I think you feel my rage.

01:09:39.600 And I think there are some chapters where you feel my hurt and it, it, you go through

01:09:44.580 plenty of emotions during that time.

01:09:46.200 I'm sure again, for the listening audience speaking today with London Roberts, who's

01:09:52.000 the author of out of the shadows, my life inside the wild world of Hunter Biden.

01:09:57.680 Uh, you can pre-order it right now.

01:10:00.480 It's pretty extraordinary.

01:10:01.840 The callousness with which you, and honestly, your daughter were treated for the first four

01:10:07.840 out of her five years on this earth.

01:10:09.660 Um, the, the chapter of, you know, what in particular, I have to say, Jill Biden did to

01:10:19.080 Navy is really infuriating.

01:10:22.060 It's, it paints the first lady in a whole new light.

01:10:27.340 Can you tell us about the Christmas stockings?

01:10:32.800 Um, yes, that, that actually is something when I was able to, to talk to Hunter for the first

01:10:39.400 time since I'd been pregnant, that was, that was something that I brought to him like that.

01:10:44.720 That's hurtful to see, um, you know, a matriarch of a family who, who is supposed to bring a

01:10:51.320 family together, um, purposely exclude someone, uh, part of that family, part of that, part

01:10:59.620 of that bloodline.

01:11:00.240 And that's something that someday my daughter will read and my daughter will see.

01:11:05.600 And it, it breaks my heart to know that it will break hers to read and see the things

01:11:13.880 that she's going to see about, um, being excluded.

01:11:18.300 And she's going to wonder, you know, why?

01:11:20.600 And, and I, all I can do is, uh, you know, be there for her when, when she does, when she

01:11:28.300 is old enough to understand these things.

01:11:29.620 How are you going to explain that?

01:11:33.160 That's tough because, um, it's one of those where I have to tell her, you know, I can't

01:11:38.340 explain, I can't tell you why I can't, I can't explain other people's behavior for you.

01:11:44.140 All I can say is, you know, that I'm sorry.

01:11:47.540 And I feel to blame because I'm, I'm the reason she's in this predicament.

01:11:52.800 You know, this, this is my child that I had, I had with him.

01:11:56.080 I got myself into that situation and I feel like I'm to blame for it.

01:12:00.320 And, um, I have a lot of mom guilt when it comes to that as well.

01:12:04.000 So that's something that I hope that with, uh, Hunter and Navy's relationship growing,

01:12:09.820 that maybe he can, um, he can turn things around and try to explain to her those behaviors

01:12:16.180 and why.

01:12:17.820 Is it true that when Jill Biden hung the white house stockings for the six grandchildren,

01:12:22.980 not the seven, excluding Navy, that she also had stockings up there for the family pets

01:12:29.900 for the dogs?

01:12:31.440 I actually did hear that.

01:12:33.940 Oh my gosh.

01:12:36.380 That, that is infuriating.

01:12:39.140 So at the, at the same time at around the same time.

01:12:42.900 So Hunter, we kind of skipped over this.

01:12:44.640 He denies paternity.

01:12:45.940 He, he, when Navy is born, he does not step up and support you spiritually and financially

01:12:51.680 and as a man and as a father, as he had promised when you first told him, he denies being the

01:12:57.240 father altogether.

01:12:58.960 And you actually had to file a lawsuit to make him own up to the fact that he had fathered

01:13:06.000 your child.

01:13:06.480 And he did not make it easy on you to even serve him with the papers or get the necessary

01:13:13.220 DNA sample.

01:13:14.400 Like you really, and you don't, you're not a rich woman.

01:13:16.760 So this, can you talk a little bit about what that process was like for you?

01:13:21.540 Um, it was, it was tough because you, you know that this is all fixing to be made public

01:13:27.960 and the world's going to know about it.

01:13:29.960 And so, you know, that one thing is tough, but also going after somebody to take accountability

01:13:36.260 for a child, uh, it's hard because you always wonder if you're doing the right thing or you're

01:13:42.600 going about everything the right way.

01:13:44.880 You want to do what's best in that predicament and you always question yourself.

01:13:51.000 And, and I was, I felt like there were times, um, I think I speak on in the book where I was

01:13:55.300 even calling a couple of mine and Hunter's mutual friends.

01:13:58.240 And I'm like, did I dream all this up?

01:13:59.920 Like this did happen.

01:14:00.860 Right.

01:14:01.680 And they're like, yes, but it, it, I was avoided so much that I thought, am, am I crazy?

01:14:08.300 Have I lost my mind?

01:14:10.100 And I had those friends there with me, you know, who witnessed everything.

01:14:13.180 They're like, no, like get it, get it together.

01:14:15.600 You're doing the right thing.

01:14:18.020 How long did it take in Navy's life for you to finally prove paternity and come to an agreement

01:14:25.060 with him, the initial agreement for support?

01:14:28.240 Um, I believe she was, was she, she was going on two years old, maybe.

01:14:38.000 Wow.

01:14:39.000 I can't remember if she had her first birthday or second birthday, but it was, um, it was

01:14:45.720 February of, I think it was February of 19.

01:14:48.880 So that would have been, um, she was 10 months old.

01:14:52.160 She was before her first birthday.

01:14:53.220 And, and he had never seen her.

01:14:57.080 No.

01:14:58.820 Hmm.

01:15:00.140 So you finally proved paternity and did he apologize?

01:15:05.320 No, I, um, at that point in time, I, I had not, you know, we weren't, we weren't talking.

01:15:13.740 We had no communication.

01:15:14.600 That was, um, just our attorneys talking back and forth.

01:15:18.100 So that's the only thing that I would hear, um, was from my attorney of what, you know,

01:15:24.060 his attorney had said or whatever.

01:15:25.940 I, there was no communication with me and him.

01:15:28.320 Mm-hmm.

01:15:30.340 And when did you finally get to talk to him?

01:15:34.980 It wasn't until, um, years later and, uh, uh, child support dispute.

01:15:42.020 When he wanted to lower it?

01:15:44.160 Yes, ma'am.

01:15:45.720 Okay.

01:15:46.500 And you finally got to sit down with him.

01:15:48.280 So he, he was ordered by the court to pay, um, I think it was $20,000 a month, right?

01:15:54.820 Yes, ma'am.

01:15:55.960 Okay.

01:15:56.320 To support his child.

01:15:57.340 And he was making millions.

01:15:58.520 We know this from, you know, all the public records around Burisma and all the rest of

01:16:01.980 it.

01:16:02.100 He was making millions and he has, uh, forgive me, three other children.

01:16:08.160 He has two older daughters and a son before Navy.

01:16:13.020 And now he's since had an, no, no.

01:16:14.540 Is it, walk me through the number of children Hunter has.

01:16:17.320 He has, he has three daughters, um, before Navy.

01:16:20.100 And then he has a younger son.

01:16:22.620 Yeah.

01:16:22.960 Okay.

01:16:23.400 And that was the other piece.

01:16:24.520 So his younger son, who he named Bo after his brother was born as you were going through

01:16:31.060 the paternity suit, as you were trying to get him to acknowledge your child, you're seeing

01:16:37.100 him and his new wife who he's still with in the papers and their, their child who gets

01:16:45.200 celebrated as a new Biden.

01:16:47.340 And you can't get him to acknowledge your Biden.

01:16:52.600 I mean, that must've been particularly galling.

01:16:56.080 It was.

01:16:57.080 Um, I think it came out towards the end of the paternity suit that she was, she was pregnant.

01:17:01.760 And, um, I think he was born shortly after, but, but yes, during that time, all of it was,

01:17:10.880 um, um, difficult, um, and eventually the media finds out about the story and your phone blew

01:17:22.500 up, right?

01:17:23.460 This is in connection with filing the paternity lawsuit.

01:17:25.640 I imagine.

01:17:26.260 Was that the day?

01:17:29.260 Uh, yes.

01:17:30.420 The paternity lawsuit.

01:17:31.420 Okay.

01:17:31.480 So everybody wants to talk to you and you decided not to do that really in the beginning.

01:17:36.420 Is that right?

01:17:38.780 Correct.

01:17:39.420 I felt like, uh, I had too much going on.

01:17:42.680 And, um, of course, you know, dealing with all these different emotions and, and it seemed

01:17:50.140 like after one thing happened, something else would pop up and happen.

01:17:52.920 And now I'm having to process this and process that.

01:17:55.780 So I knew that with time I would, um, I would be able to tell my story and I would, at that

01:18:06.440 You can do it on your own terms.

01:18:08.560 So Hunter was paying the child support for a while and then you referenced it.

01:18:14.540 He wanted to get back together and he wanted to lower the child support from $20,000 a month

01:18:19.660 to $5,000 a month.

01:18:21.880 And as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, London, this is the meeting where you

01:18:27.200 showed up with a box of items that Navy had made for him and pictures of her and really

01:18:39.000 just pleaded with him to do the right thing.

01:18:41.580 Can you describe the box and what that meeting was like?

01:18:44.960 Yes.

01:18:45.300 I feel like the, the box was some form of, um, a peace offering and it was for

01:18:51.840 his, his, his deposition that he was going to go in, you know, and answer questions that

01:18:55.540 my attorney had to ask.

01:18:56.860 And I don't, I wasn't expected to be there, but it was, um, also right before Father's

01:19:02.880 Day weekend.

01:19:03.660 And my child, as you'll, as you'll read throughout the book, you know, she, she questioned, you

01:19:09.900 know, other kids had a father, where's mine?

01:19:12.520 And so, you know, I, I tell her, I've, I open, I'm open with her about who her father

01:19:17.340 is and, and, and that's something that will never change.

01:19:23.180 So instead of, um, you know, not having anything to celebrate for a Father's Day or not having

01:19:30.620 anything to do, I, I offer her the chance to make her father something, um, that she can

01:19:37.400 give him.

01:19:37.820 And then I'll, I'll make sure that he gets, and I felt like that was a peace offering to

01:19:42.260 show, you know, like this little, this little girl is your daughter and, and she loves you.

01:19:47.280 And, you know, you don't, you don't know that she loves you because you don't have that

01:19:51.100 relationship with her, but she loves you from afar.

01:19:54.200 And I instill all the good things about you into her to let her know that, um, she's loved.

01:20:00.880 And so I took this box with, uh, pictures of her and a couple of things that she had

01:20:06.460 made, one being, um, a bracelet and she made like, uh, blue beads and a purple bead because

01:20:13.760 she said purple was purple's her favorite color.

01:20:16.060 And she said, I'm going to assume his favorite color is blue because he's a boy.

01:20:20.100 And, uh, she was right.

01:20:21.360 But, and she also like, you know, drew him a picture and, and things like that.

01:20:25.400 I took, and I took that to him and that was when my attorney said off the record, you know,

01:20:31.040 my client has something that she would like to give you.

01:20:33.140 I can, I can remember the shakes, the shaking in my voice because Hunter and I hadn't talked

01:20:38.380 in years and I wasn't there to talk to him for me or for anyone else.

01:20:43.820 I was there for my daughter.

01:20:46.140 And that day I feel like my daughter won because she got her father and, and no, that's worth

01:20:55.160 any amount of money and any amount of child support.

01:20:58.200 Um, my daughter building a relationship with her father.

01:21:01.800 Hmm.

01:21:02.760 So he lowered, you guys agreed to lower the child support from 20 a month to five a month.

01:21:08.460 And at the same time, he, he got a $15,000 a month house in Malibu for himself.

01:21:17.420 I'm sorry.

01:21:18.400 Like, I think I'm less forgiving than you are London, but that's bullshit.

01:21:22.440 That's, he took that money from your child who already doesn't have a dad here and he's

01:21:30.980 using it on himself, taking in the Malibu sea scenes.

01:21:36.980 I'm, am I the only one between the two of us who's angry about this?

01:21:43.400 Yeah, I think so.

01:21:45.080 I've, um, I've spent a lot of time being angry at him, but my love for my daughter outweighs

01:21:49.920 that and, um, seeing her like the first zoom call and sitting down and seeing her face

01:21:56.340 like finally getting that you, you agreed that you're going to lower the child support.

01:22:00.300 She was also going to get certain art of his to sell and that he would agree to doing zoom

01:22:06.600 calls with his child who he had never met before.

01:22:09.120 Sorry, go ahead.

01:22:09.680 Yes.

01:22:13.100 And so, you know, seeing her face light up and seeing, you know, finally getting this,

01:22:18.920 this relationship that she's yearned for for so long.

01:22:22.480 I, um, I don't care what he does with his money.

01:22:29.220 I want him to be a dad.

01:22:31.220 I want him to, if he can make her face look like that, then, um, continue being a father

01:22:37.700 to her, be a good, be a good role model, love her, show her love, do, you know, do fatherly

01:22:43.000 things.

01:22:44.080 And, and that's what mattered to me.

01:22:46.780 Wow.

01:22:48.860 Wow.

01:22:49.860 Has he ever met her face to face in person?

01:22:53.620 No, he is not.

01:22:54.680 Um, you know, Hunter has a lot on his plate right now.

01:22:57.260 And I know that's also me giving him grace and, um, I'll continue to do so until the

01:23:04.360 day I die.

01:23:06.800 Has the president ever met his grandchild Navy?

01:23:10.920 No.

01:23:12.840 Have you had any communications whatsoever from Navy's grandma, Jill Biden, or grandpa,

01:23:18.720 Joe Biden?

01:23:20.000 No, we have not had any communication.

01:23:22.700 I'd been advised by my birthday card.

01:23:26.540 No.

01:23:27.580 I'd been advised by my attorneys that, you know, grandparents normally don't step into

01:23:31.200 a child's life until that father does.

01:23:34.000 And then they feel, you know, comfortable enough to do so.

01:23:36.280 So, I mean, it's all new and we'll see what the future holds.

01:23:43.580 Wow.

01:23:44.160 I mean, it's been a year since he's been doing the zoom calls.

01:23:47.080 It's, it's about time, I think.

01:23:49.000 I mean, Joe Biden tells us every day about how family's the only, only thing.

01:23:52.940 It's the most important thing in life.

01:23:54.460 That's all he really cares about.

01:23:56.060 Why not Navy?

01:23:56.880 Uh, I understand.

01:24:00.220 I, I, I wonder those same, those same things.

01:24:02.760 And I question that as well, but I can't speak for him.

01:24:06.900 I don't know.

01:24:08.620 Mm-hmm.

01:24:08.980 There's an amazing chapter in this book where you write about taking Navy, by this point,

01:24:14.860 Joe Biden's become president, to Washington, D.C.

01:24:18.100 and you see the White House.

01:24:21.440 I'm going to pause there.

01:24:23.180 That's what we call a tease.

01:24:24.480 I'm going to squeeze in a break and that's what we'll pick it up on the backside of this

01:24:27.940 break.

01:24:28.320 So happy to have you with us today, London Roberts, um, telling your story.

01:24:32.080 Remember, the book is called Out of the Shadows by London Roberts.

01:24:36.180 It's out in August, but available for presale right now.

01:24:39.740 We'll be right back.

01:24:40.380 I'm Megan Kelly, host of the Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM.

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01:25:43.020 You write that Hunter's initial reaction after the DNA test proved he was the father,

01:25:50.600 that it was, quote, just proven he's the father.

01:25:53.400 And the first thing he comes back with is, I'm broke.

01:25:56.540 How about, I'm sorry?

01:25:58.460 How about taking accountability for your child?

01:26:00.700 I don't care if you're broke.

01:26:01.800 And your child won't care either.

01:26:03.660 All she wants is a father.

01:26:05.640 And then you reveal that he proposed initially that you single-parent adopt Navy.

01:26:16.120 You write in the book, adopt her?

01:26:18.420 Are you fucking kidding me?

01:26:19.920 So then he has no obligations and avoids responsibility?

01:26:22.320 Yes, said your lawyer.

01:26:23.840 They even asked if you would sign an NDA to not discuss the results.

01:26:28.800 Oh, hell no.

01:26:29.440 You're right.

01:26:29.800 They can shove that NDA up their ass and their fucking offer.

01:26:32.540 I can relate to this version of you, London.

01:26:37.660 And you say, this is a new hurt, a new hurt.

01:26:41.020 It's a mother's hurt for her daughter.

01:26:43.660 They said he would be willing to offer $250,000 to the deal.

01:26:48.500 I mean, this, he pulled your health insurance on you at one point.

01:26:53.880 And so you didn't have medical coverage.

01:26:56.500 He lowered the child support on you.

01:26:58.720 He did not acknowledge his parental responsibilities.

01:27:01.040 He wanted you to be a single parent, to put it in writing.

01:27:05.660 And ultimately, he found out he was concerned that you might start using the Biden name for Navy,

01:27:12.700 which is standard in America, that a child takes her father's name.

01:27:18.560 And is it true that you had to agree to not use Biden as Navy's last name?

01:27:24.560 Um, yes, him and I discussed that over the child support dispute when we finally met face to face and sit down and talk.

01:27:32.900 And, um, you know, we both came to an agreeance that that that was probably the best thing for now.

01:27:38.420 And when Navy's old enough, she can she gets to choose what she wants.

01:27:42.200 So you take her at some point to Washington and to see the White House, where her grandfather is the sitting president of the United States.

01:27:56.940 And it's an extraordinary chapter 19.

01:28:01.000 You write,

01:28:01.560 By holding my breath, I approach the gates, fearing Navy, will ask what purpose this building serves,

01:28:07.360 or worse, that she would realize who might be inside and ask if she could visit her grandpa.

01:28:11.720 She's only three, but even the small chance of that happening leaves a pit in my stomach.

01:28:15.740 Like every other American, I grab my phone to capture a picture of my child in front of our nation's historic home.

01:28:20.920 The emerald green grass and bright blue sky frame the big white building as Navy presses her face close to peer through the bars.

01:28:29.300 This would have to be the first time in U.S. history a granddaughter of the first family is not allowed inside those gates.

01:28:37.240 The sight is etched into my brain forever.

01:28:40.240 And that goes on to this day, because not only is Navy not welcome at the White House, London, but she actually has to watch as the Bidens continue celebrating their other grandchildren,

01:28:53.980 have events on TV showing the other grandchildren, and knowing that these are her half-siblings in some of the cases,

01:29:03.080 and her cousins, whom so far she has never met and who have never acknowledged her.

01:29:08.880 So how do you explain all that?

01:29:13.060 It's a lot.

01:29:14.280 I mean, I've said that, you know, there's a lot of hurt in this book, and there's a lot of anger and rage, but, you know, there's redemption in the end.

01:29:25.620 Right now, I hope, but that, like you were stating, the D.C. chapter, taking her to D.C., you know, wasn't—the National Mall is my favorite area in D.C.

01:29:36.640 I love that walk and stuff, and that's why I took her to the White House first, was to get that one over with and out of the way.

01:29:43.320 That one is still—it's hard.

01:29:45.880 It's hard to—it's hard to talk about, you know, you sitting there, you know, reading that part about Navy Outside the Gates,

01:29:53.240 and I feel my lip quivering because there's so much emotion that comes with it.

01:29:59.280 And as a mother, you know, and my love for my child, you know, it's—she might not fully understand yet, but someday she will, and it breaks my heart.

01:30:09.840 What do you say to people who say, you shouldn't have brought her there, don't take her there?

01:30:16.860 Um, I try to be as open with my daughter as possible, and the National Mall, like I said, is my favorite part of D.C., and she loves D.C., you know.

01:30:28.680 D.C. holds a big part of my heart, and I have a bunch of friends there who have become family.

01:30:34.220 And, you know, taking her there was something that I was so happy to do and so excited to do because I love that place, and I would love for her to share that love.

01:30:49.020 And I can get why people don't understand, and it's kind of like that saying, you know, you'll never understand a person's journey unless you've walked a mile in their shoes.

01:31:02.280 And it's just the predicament I'm in and the way that, you know, I've tried to handle things.

01:31:09.460 I can't say that I've handled everything the right way, but I've done the best that I can.

01:31:13.320 It's so tricky because I can totally understand why you want your child to know that her grandfather is the president.

01:31:21.960 You know, of course you want her to know that and to kind of appreciate it, and it's kind of a cool thing.

01:31:27.700 I mean, that is her lineage, but yet there's so much downside with having to explain.

01:31:34.080 I mean, you are in a very tricky spot.

01:31:37.260 I fully get that.

01:31:38.640 One other thing on the First Lady, because I did think this was one of the cruelest cuts of all.

01:31:45.920 You write in the book, Chapter 15, in June 2020, Jill Biden published Joey, a children's book about the life of Joe Biden.

01:31:54.700 Hanging on to a copy for Navy, I pull it out one night after bath time, and she loves it when I read to her, and this is a book about her grandfather.

01:32:01.900 And what did you see when you opened up Joey, the book with Navy?

01:32:05.500 Um, the dedication page where, um, you know, Jill wrote this book about, uh, Joe, and she dedicated it so, you know, her grandchildren, as she should.

01:32:20.040 And then she, she listed them by name, excluding one.

01:32:25.340 Hmm.

01:32:26.880 You ask in the book, someday my, my daughter will be able to read this book.

01:32:30.880 How will she feel knowing all the president's grandchildren were intentionally listed, but Jill left her out purposefully?

01:32:38.420 I always thought that a quality of a First Lady is to handle herself with class, but this is distasteful and borderline cruel.

01:32:47.300 You go on to say,

01:32:48.200 She snubbed a small, innocent child and a family member.

01:32:51.980 I can't conceive the number of prayers I will need to ever forgive this woman for publicly snubbing a child she should be embracing.

01:32:59.740 Have you forgiven her?

01:33:04.360 Um, that's tough.

01:33:06.840 That, um, you know,

01:33:08.140 I have to, I have to, I have to forgive for myself.

01:33:12.440 I can't let, you know, anger and, and rage just overcome me.

01:33:17.020 I can't, I can't be that person.

01:33:18.400 I have to, I have to forgive.

01:33:23.340 Have you signed a non-disparagement with Hunter?

01:33:27.560 No.

01:33:29.060 So you're allowed to say what you want about him?

01:33:31.560 Yes.

01:33:31.800 Yes.

01:33:33.060 Okay.

01:33:33.680 Yeah.

01:33:33.960 Because I would imagine, I don't know, has he objected to the book?

01:33:38.120 Like, has he, does he know about the book?

01:33:40.800 Yes.

01:33:42.200 Yes.

01:33:42.640 He knows.

01:33:43.140 He knows about the book.

01:33:44.260 Um, he's, he's taking that time to process it.

01:33:47.920 So what now?

01:33:48.960 We have a presidential election in about five months.

01:33:51.820 I know you, you're writing the book about how you, you did vote for Joe Biden.

01:33:54.860 You brought Navy with you.

01:33:56.260 Do you, do you vote for him again?

01:33:57.920 Um, well, it's, it's kind of like, uh, Mr. Pierce Morgan told me the other day, how, how

01:34:07.340 can I vote for Trump and look my child's father in the face ever again?

01:34:12.000 That, uh, there's a certain kind of hate, I think, between them that, um, I don't think

01:34:19.040 that they're willing to let go at any time.

01:34:24.200 So you couldn't pull the lever for Trump, you're saying?

01:34:27.920 Um, I, I don't believe so.

01:34:32.080 Mm-hmm.

01:34:33.820 But like you said, it's a tricky position you're, I'm put in.

01:34:38.080 Very.

01:34:38.800 I mean, let's face it.

01:34:39.800 Joe Biden has not been good to you.

01:34:41.040 He hasn't, he hasn't been good to Navy and you're her protector.

01:34:44.100 So it's like, but on the other hand, it's kind of cool to have her, her grandfather be

01:34:49.280 the sitting president.

01:34:50.140 So I, I don't know.

01:34:51.860 And you always hope that things will turn around.

01:34:54.260 Um, yeah.

01:34:56.300 What if, what if they did hang a seventh stocking?

01:34:58.720 That would be a, that would be a small way to mend the fence.

01:35:02.960 But what they did instead, once Hunter was proven the father was they did no stockings

01:35:06.580 at all.

01:35:07.000 You notice that?

01:35:08.980 Yes.

01:35:09.300 They'd rather not acknowledge the, the six that they acknowledge than add Navy to the

01:35:15.240 mantle, which tells you what about them?

01:35:19.200 Uh, it, it, uh, it says a lot.

01:35:24.420 It, uh, I want to think that wasn't their intentions and, and maybe that's like a PR thing and, and

01:35:29.940 they have to, you know, that's something that they have to do at that time.

01:35:33.280 And I want to have hope.

01:35:37.200 That's it.

01:35:39.420 How is Navy?

01:35:42.120 Oh, she's great.

01:35:44.660 She's great.

01:35:46.120 She's a, what's your kindergarten now?

01:35:48.040 Almost.

01:35:48.720 Yes.

01:35:49.020 She'll be going into kindergarten.

01:35:51.340 Awesome.

01:35:51.840 She thinks she rules the school.

01:35:53.860 From what I read in this book, she's got some great grandparents on your side.

01:35:57.900 I love your dad's messaging about this whole thing.

01:36:00.520 When he said, it's fine.

01:36:02.340 They're going to cut the money.

01:36:03.820 I'm going to help support this little girl and do what I need to do.

01:36:07.420 But what's the most important is have her father's love in her life.

01:36:10.540 So it sounds like you come from good stock and those are her primary influences and not

01:36:15.140 for nothing, London, but those Biden children have not turned out so well.

01:36:18.880 So maybe it's a blessing that the primary influences in her life are on your side.

01:36:24.880 Thanks for writing the book and thanks for coming on.

01:36:26.780 Well, thank you for having me.

01:36:29.520 Oh, all the best.

01:36:30.840 Okay.

01:36:31.020 Again, the book is called Out of the Shadows and it's available for pre-order right now.

01:36:35.520 Thanks to all of you for joining me today.

01:36:37.640 Next week, we have a whole week of true crime shows for you.

01:36:40.820 It's called Fraud Week and I think you're really going to love it.

01:36:44.160 We'll see you then.

01:36:44.900 Email me your thoughts.

01:36:46.180 Megan at MeganKelley.com.

01:36:51.240 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:36:53.120 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:36:56.800 Thanks for listening.

01:36:58.180 Thank you.

01:36:59.180 Thanks for listening.

01:36:59.340 Thank you.

The Megyn Kelly Show - June 07, 2024

Hunter Biden's Daughter's Mother Lunden Roberts Speaks Out, and Glenn Loury on Overcoming His Demons and Succeeding in Academia ｜ Ep. 813

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