The Megyn Kelly Show - Impeachment, The Sequel, with Eric Bolling and Dan Abrams

00:00:00.000 Your business doesn't move in a straight line.

00:00:02.840 Make sure your team is taken care of through every twist and turn

00:00:05.980 with Canada Life Savings, Retirement and Benefits Plans.

00:00:09.660 Whether you want to grow your team, support your employees at every stage

00:00:13.120 or build a workplace people want to be a part of,

00:00:16.200 Canada Life has flexible plans for companies of all sizes

00:00:19.400 so it's easy to find a solution that works for you.

00:00:22.840 Visit canadalife.com slash employee benefits to learn more.

00:00:26.540 Canada Life. Insurance. Investments. Advice.

00:00:30.740 When I found out my friend got a great deal on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:34.500 I started wondering, is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:39.060 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans.

00:00:41.980 Are those from Winners?

00:00:43.520 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings?

00:00:45.980 Did she pay full price?

00:00:47.300 Or that leather tote? Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:49.520 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:50.940 That dress? That jacket? Those shoes?

00:00:53.120 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:00:56.540 Stop wondering. Start winning.

00:00:58.640 Winners. Find fabulous for less.

00:01:01.320 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:03.240 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:01:12.920 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:16.020 Today on the program, we've got Dan Abrams and Eric Bolling.

00:01:20.300 This is going to be good.

00:01:22.320 Dan is a brilliant guy. We've known each other for a long time.

00:01:25.220 He's ABC News legal analyst.

00:01:27.560 He's host of The Dan Abrams Show on Sirius, among many other titles and successes that he has.

00:01:33.380 And Eric Bolling hosts his own show on Sinclair Media, and it's called America This Week.

00:01:38.700 And we used to work together at Fox.

00:01:40.040 So I would say, I mean, Dan is definitely more center-left.

00:01:42.880 Eric has been pretty defensive of MAGA world.

00:01:45.580 And we're going to have all perspectives covered pretty much on this show about impeachment and the social media crackdown and the future of the Republican Party right now.

00:01:56.820 So you're not going to want to miss any of that.

00:01:58.640 But before we get to our guests, let's talk about home title luck.

00:02:03.440 I got a crash course in home title theft, and you better pray this thing never happens to you.

00:02:07.960 This is a crime you're probably not even thinking about, but you're at risk.

00:02:10.760 It can ruin you financially.

00:02:12.560 And here's how it happens.

00:02:14.160 The legal titles to all of our homes are kept online where they can be hacked.

00:02:19.420 You see, a cyber thief will find your home's title, forge your signature on a quick claim deed stating,

00:02:24.940 Oh, she sold my home, her home to me.

00:02:27.400 I own it now.

00:02:28.500 Then the guy will take out loans against your home until your equity is totally gone.

00:02:33.560 You won't even know that this happened until the collection calls pour in.

00:02:37.060 You find out you're not protected by insurance, by your bank, or by any of the common identity theft programs.

00:02:43.420 That's where home title lock comes in.

00:02:45.440 If you have a relationship with them, if you've got one of their policies, basically, they will protect you.

00:02:50.220 And in the very unlikely event that you become a victim of title theft while you're a member of home title lock,

00:02:55.960 they will spend up to a quarter million bucks in legal fees to help restore your home's title.

00:03:00.200 That's big.

00:03:00.840 That's a lot of dough.

00:03:02.020 So go to hometitlelock.com, register your address to see if you are already a victim,

00:03:07.460 and then use code radio for 30 free days of protection.

00:03:11.620 You need a relationship with these guys for protection of your home title.

00:03:15.800 That's code radio at hometitlelock.com, hometitlelock.com, code radio.

00:03:21.780 Check it out.

00:03:22.780 And now, without further ado, we're going to start today with Dan Abrams.

00:03:28.080 You know, Howard Stern says he's king of all media, but you really are king of all media.

00:03:32.260 I mean, from your website, Mediaite, which I really enjoy, to your host, your show on Sirius,

00:03:38.400 which I also enjoy, to your books, ABC News Legal Analyst, to hosting the cop show on A&E

00:03:45.160 until it was so unceremoniously terminated in the wake of the Black Lives Matter rights over the summer.

00:03:50.700 That was BS.

00:03:51.380 We'll get to that.

00:03:52.980 You've done it all, and you're doing it.

00:03:54.440 Are you exhausted?

00:03:55.520 You're so tired.

00:03:56.720 You know, it keeps me energized.

00:03:59.600 You know, I just I love doing the different things.

00:04:02.280 Look, you've seen it, right?

00:04:03.520 The freedom that comes with doing a lot of different things where you don't have an employer, right?

00:04:11.080 I mean, even with ABC News, I'm a consultant, right?

00:04:13.480 I'm not an employee.

00:04:16.000 And no one could believe it when I left NBC.

00:04:20.080 I mean, a lot of people don't know this.

00:04:22.340 When my 9 o'clock MSNBC show got canceled, they offered me a daytime slot at MSNBC.

00:04:29.600 And I said, you know what?

00:04:30.720 I don't want to be a dayside anchor.

00:04:32.720 And I said, you know, let me just go do my own thing, and I'll stay on as the legal analyst.

00:04:37.860 They're like, come on.

00:04:39.240 Everyone's like, no, no, come on.

00:04:40.380 You're not actually going to leave and, like, give up an anchor gig.

00:04:45.360 I'm like, I'm much more interested in being able to do a whole bunch of different things than to be beholden to, you know, a single employer where I can't do all these other things.

00:04:57.060 So I got really lucky in terms of the timing and everything, and it's all kind of worked out.

00:05:02.720 Well, this is a weird turn, but you kind of remind me of Kathie Lee Gifford, who she's kind of in the same boat as you and I think myself.

00:05:11.460 And in that we've all walked away from big posts because we know ourselves and we know what makes us happy.

00:05:19.100 And sometimes what makes you personally happy doesn't reflect what the viewers at home think will make you happy.

00:05:24.660 And sometimes we misstep, but, you know, eventually you get it right.

00:05:29.060 But I think a lot of people have finally understood that, right?

00:05:32.000 Like when you decided to sort of start your own thing at this point, people are like, oh, yeah, well, that makes sense.

00:05:37.320 I mean, she's a, you know, she's got a name.

00:05:38.800 She's got a brand.

00:05:39.420 But, you know, you did that five years ago and people were like, are you nuts?

00:05:45.340 You're giving up, like leaving the home ship to go do your own thing.

00:05:51.080 And so, you know, look, as you know, it takes, you know, it's a different skill set, right?

00:05:57.260 To do your own kind of thing without the internal systems that exist at a media entity.

00:06:04.600 Mm-hmm.

00:06:05.940 Well, for me, it just took the realization that I don't get along with bosses.

00:06:09.240 I just don't do well under bosses.

00:06:11.260 And I shouldn't be seeking out more bosses unless they're going to just let me be me.

00:06:16.140 I'm so glad that it has worked out so well for you.

00:06:18.760 It's been amazing to watch.

00:06:20.540 Thank you.

00:06:21.020 And I want our audience to know you've been such a huge supporter and friend of mine.

00:06:24.760 And I'm very grateful, Dan.

00:06:26.300 You've been very cool my entire career, both in covering me and in reporting on, you know,

00:06:32.620 things that involve me and just behind the scenes as a friend.

00:06:34.940 So God bless you, brother.

00:06:36.440 All right, let's get to the news.

00:06:38.720 OK, I really want to talk about impeachment with you because as I see it, I don't think

00:06:44.840 here's I'll give you my take and then you tell me what you think.

00:06:47.480 I understand the need to do it, like the desire to do it, even by those who aren't Trump haters.

00:06:52.180 I get it because what happened at the Capitol was totally extraordinary and that level of awful.

00:06:58.360 And while I don't think Trump stoked it in the moments before, if you look at his conduct

00:07:03.820 from the day of the election to the day of the riot, it was awful.

00:07:08.280 And there's no question he fed this belief that the election had been stolen and that

00:07:12.580 we had to, quote, fight to take our country back and doing anything else would project

00:07:17.220 weakness.

00:07:17.680 And, you know, if you look at the whole, it's more egregious than if you just look at the

00:07:23.240 speech the moment before the riot.

00:07:25.800 But when it comes to the legal standard and they're they're accusing him of incitement,

00:07:32.020 which is a legal term, I don't think they've got him.

00:07:36.000 And I do think if you're going to go that route, if you're trying to claim this guy engaged

00:07:40.580 to engage in unconstitutionally protected speech, legal incitement, they don't have it

00:07:48.560 because that's got to be, you know, you you said something so incendiary, it caused

00:07:53.940 immediate lawless action and that you intended it to cause immediate violence.

00:07:59.400 And that they don't they can't prove that.

00:08:01.800 But that's that's if he gets charged with a federal crime in the impeachment context.

00:08:06.280 He doesn't they don't have to abide specifically by the statute.

00:08:09.720 I mean, they can talk about exactly what you said, which I think is right, which is that

00:08:15.360 it's the context, it's the fact that for weeks he's been ginning people up with a lie, with

00:08:23.220 a lie that the election was stolen.

00:08:25.360 And by ginning everyone up for this long and then to call them to the Capitol and then to

00:08:31.460 say the things that he said, you put that all together and it's really problematic.

00:08:37.280 So so I don't think that they have to abide by, you know, the very the constraints that

00:08:44.620 would exist in the federal statute with regard to incitement.

00:08:48.620 But look, I think it's a close call on the federal law.

00:08:51.480 I agree with you that there are there would be challenges for prosecutors if they don't

00:08:57.360 think they're going to bring a case, but if they did.

00:08:59.780 But I think in the impeachment context, they can bring in not just what happened in those

00:09:04.940 hours before, but what happened in the weeks before and then what happened in the hours

00:09:09.940 after.

00:09:11.060 And I think all of that becomes relevant.

00:09:13.900 Right.

00:09:14.080 So it's I mean, legally, and I tweeted this out the other day, because there's talk about

00:09:17.960 charging him criminally with incitement under the D.C.

00:09:22.760 law, and that's that'll never fly, never fly under the Supreme Court precedent of Brandenburg

00:09:27.580 versus Ohio.

00:09:28.420 You just they're not going to get it.

00:09:30.060 So what they're talking about now, right, there's who would prosecute, right, because it was

00:09:34.340 the, you know, the U.S.

00:09:35.380 attorney is typically the one.

00:09:36.540 And now you've got the attorney, you know, you've got different people now talking about

00:09:39.820 possible prosecutions.

00:09:40.940 I don't think the U.S.

00:09:41.800 attorney is going to prosecute based on that law.

00:09:44.600 And you're right that the Brandenburg test is a very high standard to get there for incitement.

00:09:50.740 OK, so but so that leaves us with they're going after him for constitutionally protected

00:09:57.360 speech, which Alan Dershert would say is a bad idea and you shouldn't do it.

00:10:02.100 I'm I don't necessarily agree with that because you can as president, that's not the only

00:10:08.180 bar between you and impeachment.

00:10:10.300 I mean, you can do really bad stuff that isn't necessarily criminal.

00:10:14.380 We saw this during the first impeachment.

00:10:15.980 It's sort of high crimes and misdemeanors.

00:10:17.560 And we talked about whether abuse of power could could wind up in somebody's impeachment.

00:10:23.180 I think there's enough precedent to get you there, depending on the action.

00:10:26.760 So so the question is whether he's done that here, whether his behavior has done that.

00:10:31.040 And let me so let me focus in on something you said, a lie, right, that that he didn't

00:10:36.540 actually lose the election.

00:10:37.920 Right.

00:10:38.540 And this is an honest question.

00:10:40.500 Are we talking about a lie or are we talking about a claim that can't be proven that he,

00:10:47.460 in fact, might have won?

00:10:49.940 No, it's a lie.

00:10:50.820 It's just an outright lie.

00:10:52.760 And you know how we know it's a lie?

00:10:54.400 Not a single member of Congress who is defending the president in the impeachment proceeding.

00:11:00.320 Not one Republican said the election was stolen.

00:11:03.400 You know why?

00:11:04.820 Because they know it's a lie and they know how incendiary that lie is.

00:11:09.520 So, you know, you can argue that some of the and this is where we conflate some of the

00:11:13.860 arguments.

00:11:14.240 Right.

00:11:14.820 There are real discussions to be had about state by state election procedures.

00:11:20.080 And these are the things that get litigated both before an election and I hope that they

00:11:24.620 get resolved definitively before the next election.

00:11:29.900 Those are fair questions to ask.

00:11:32.060 Those are fair things to bring into court.

00:11:33.740 But that's why when Rudy Giuliani was sitting in a court in Pennsylvania and the judge said,

00:11:38.380 wait, are you alleging fraud?

00:11:40.680 No, no, no.

00:11:41.100 This isn't a fraud case.

00:11:42.720 And then he makes the other argument.

00:11:44.000 I mean, that's the problem here is that that when they actually allege the fraud and they

00:11:48.660 had the affidavits, for example, in Michigan, the judge went through affidavit by affidavit

00:11:53.780 talking about either why they weren't relevant or they weren't credible.

00:11:57.680 And so this notion that legally didn't have it.

00:12:00.360 But here's not even just going.

00:12:01.820 There's no argument.

00:12:03.100 No, no, no.

00:12:03.400 But let me get nothing.

00:12:04.580 Let me get let me get to where I'm where I'm going.

00:12:07.280 And I'm not just for the record taking the opposite position.

00:12:10.080 Um, but I think it's worth exploring because here when you talk to people who believe that

00:12:15.080 the election was stolen and I'll tell you, people will tell me this people who are, you

00:12:18.760 know, well-educated, who are public figures, who you wouldn't know are secret Trump voters

00:12:23.700 will tell me privately this election was stolen.

00:12:26.480 I do.

00:12:27.120 What do they mean by that?

00:12:28.320 What do they mean?

00:12:29.020 Do they mean by Big Tech?

00:12:30.840 Yeah.

00:12:31.400 So then I asked them, you know, like, well, because, you know, the all the dozens of court

00:12:34.720 challenges that Trump's team filed were rejected and that when they got in front of judges

00:12:38.920 and were were invited to present the evidence of fraud, they they said explicitly, we're

00:12:44.840 not alleging fraud.

00:12:45.640 We don't have fraud.

00:12:46.680 And where they tried to do it, you know, certain affidavits and so on, it was rejected

00:12:50.240 universally, especially including by Trump appointed judges.

00:12:53.760 Right.

00:12:54.120 So it's not just all like, you know, secret liberals in robes.

00:12:57.320 Um, what they'll say is things like, um, he lost it back in the spring when the rules

00:13:06.040 on how you could do a mail-in vote were changed and that that the mail-in votes weren't properly

00:13:13.520 checked in places like Pennsylvania and the rejection rate for the mail-in ballots was lower

00:13:22.200 this year than it's ever been before, even though the mail-in votes were something like four or five

00:13:26.540 times higher than they've ever been in the past.

00:13:28.580 And that the people who hate Trump so much that they suffer from, you know, Trump derangement

00:13:33.540 syndrome and they think everything he does is equivalent to Hitler.

00:13:37.060 How could you put it past them to knowingly steal an election when you thought the stakes

00:13:41.540 were keeping Hitler from getting a second term?

00:13:44.020 Right.

00:13:44.240 The problem with the last argument, right, which is the main one, um, which is sort of these

00:13:49.280 theoretical, well, couldn't put it past them sort of, they're not based on evidence, right?

00:13:54.900 It's, it's based on, well, I could see this person doing something.

00:13:59.360 I could see that's not evidence and there is no evidence.

00:14:03.260 And that's the important thing is that when you talk about, there's a reason that Fox and

00:14:08.440 Newsmax had to issue these apologies or put on these clarifications, shall I say, with regard

00:14:14.220 to something like Smartmatic is because they were just peddling nonsense.

00:14:19.540 It was all BS.

00:14:22.200 And whether they knew it at the time or they didn't know it at the time, they had to clear

00:14:26.580 the record.

00:14:27.260 So now we're at a point where we've now heard all of these claims about the voting systems

00:14:33.620 that were designed to, to hurt Donald Trump and votes were turned in this, and none of it

00:14:39.180 is true.

00:14:40.040 And so when you ask the difference, it's like saying that, that because the president

00:14:44.740 continues to make the claim, you know, it'd be like someone saying to me, saying about

00:14:48.740 me, you know, there was a murder right near where Dan Abrams lives.

00:14:53.100 And, um, you know, he says he was sleeping at the time, but I don't know.

00:14:58.160 I mean, no evidence points to Dan Abrams, but there's a guy across the street who knows

00:15:01.860 Dan Abrams lives there and he's convinced he did it.

00:15:04.160 Oh, well, you know, then it's, maybe it's not a lie.

00:15:06.580 Maybe it's just a claim.

00:15:07.340 I mean, there's gotta be evidence for us to discuss anything realistically.

00:15:12.380 There is no evidence.

00:15:13.640 I mean, what, well, what about that?

00:15:15.100 So you, so you went right to the Hitler part, but what about the first part of my, my argument

00:15:18.760 that they did change the voting rules for COVID, um, that, that the, there were overwhelming

00:15:23.780 numbers of mail-in ballots and that the rejection rate for those mail-in ballots in places like

00:15:28.880 Pennsylvania was lower than it's ever been, even though the number of mail-in ballots were

00:15:31.820 higher than it's ever been.

00:15:32.780 It's not evidence that it happened, but this is what gives people pause.

00:15:36.140 Uh, especially when Joe Biden's victories in sort of these democratic counties that carried

00:15:42.060 him over the finish line were way, his, his margins were way higher in these swing states

00:15:46.320 than they were on a nationwide basis.

00:15:47.980 And so it, it doesn't, it's, it wouldn't amount to proof in a court of law.

00:15:51.220 It's why people, it's one of the reasons why people feel suspicious.

00:15:55.480 And that's why I ask you, what is the difference between saying it's a lie and there's no evidence?

00:16:00.620 I'm totally fine saying there's zero evidence of voter fraud.

00:16:03.820 I'm, I don't know if I'm okay saying it's a lie.

00:16:06.360 I don't know.

00:16:06.960 How do you know?

00:16:07.860 It's, it's a difference between it's, it's the responsibility of those of us who are going

00:16:13.100 to be, you know, sort of in the public eye to talk about facts and the way that sort

00:16:18.580 of things can transpire.

00:16:20.400 You, this, what we know and what we don't know, that's how we put it.

00:16:24.280 So, so, so, so right.

00:16:25.000 No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:16:26.340 It's a lie that voting machines turned votes to Joe Biden.

00:16:31.160 That's a lot.

00:16:32.220 I agree with that.

00:16:33.080 Right.

00:16:33.560 Okay.

00:16:33.820 A hundred percent.

00:16:34.240 So, so all the voting machine arguments, you agree.

00:16:36.620 That's why Newsmax and OAN and Fox had to do the rollback on the smartmatic allegations,

00:16:41.240 which were put out there really recklessly without skepticism repeated over and over.

00:16:46.780 And they're, you know, they're going to be hoisted on their own petards for, for the

00:16:49.740 risks they took on that.

00:16:51.220 And I, I don't defend that for one second, but the greater discussion to me is something

00:16:55.620 different.

00:16:56.180 Well, but, but again, about, about the statistical analyses, right.

00:17:00.800 Particularly about like where there were more votes for Joe Biden versus, I mean, we could

00:17:05.100 do that in 2016 and I could make an argument, the same level argument, which is a very,

00:17:10.840 very, you know, which is, is not a one based in facts or evidence that somehow Donald Trump's

00:17:16.360 results in 2016 don't make sense.

00:17:19.160 Right.

00:17:19.640 I could make that argument about going County by County.

00:17:22.460 Oh, this, but you know, you compare it to beforehand and it doesn't make any sense.

00:17:27.020 And yet that's not an argument for voter fraud.

00:17:29.560 I mean, the argument for voter fraud is so serious.

00:17:32.820 It's so important.

00:17:34.360 It's such a incendiary accusation that you can't just say, Oh, you know, there were some

00:17:40.140 statistics and I have concerns about that means.

00:17:42.700 So my point is unless and until, and it's not unless or until there is no evidence of

00:17:48.940 voter fraud.

00:17:49.620 There is discussions to be had about how we have no, but about how, again, I'm fine with

00:17:54.780 saying there's no evidence.

00:17:55.680 Here's why I'm driving at this.

00:17:56.840 I'm fine with saying there's no evidence, as I've said repeatedly on the show for weeks

00:17:59.720 and weeks and weeks.

00:18:00.540 But I do think when you cross over to it's a lie and I, and I, you're on shake your ground.

00:18:05.820 And I also think when you then try to shut down people from saying it at all on YouTube,

00:18:14.580 on Twitter, elsewhere, you're, you're on, you're on water.

00:18:19.720 Forget shaky ground.

00:18:20.680 You got nothing.

00:18:21.440 That's not okay.

00:18:23.200 You are allowed to believe what you want to believe in this country.

00:18:27.260 And if you want to say it out loud, even on YouTube, even on Twitter, you should be

00:18:32.000 able to.

00:18:32.500 I forget Trump.

00:18:34.080 I'm really concerned about the crackdown on free speech we're seeing.

00:18:37.420 And that's sort of part two of this on people expressing their belief about this.

00:18:43.500 So let's, let's separate those out.

00:18:45.520 Right.

00:18:45.780 So let's, let's agree to disagree on what I view as Donald Trump's lie about the election.

00:18:52.920 He knows it's not true, or he's completely OJ himself into believing that somehow he actually

00:18:59.100 won this election.

00:18:59.980 I mean, see, I've got my money on number two.

00:19:01.520 I got, I actually don't think he's telling a knowing lie, just knowing the way he is.

00:19:05.700 Maybe that could be, that could be.

00:19:07.380 And I think, I actually think that may be true.

00:19:09.360 And I'm Michael Cohen was on my radio show and he thinks that's true.

00:19:12.280 He thinks that Trump actually believes he won.

00:19:14.840 But let's, let's, so let's separate that out from other people, right?

00:19:18.720 Just not members of Congress, not leaders, right?

00:19:21.640 Random people.

00:19:22.320 Sure.

00:19:22.960 Yes.

00:19:23.320 Of course, random people should be able to say, but I don't have a problem.

00:19:27.400 Well, no, of course they are.

00:19:28.660 They're just getting, they're not, but they're getting warnings when they, when they issue,

00:19:33.400 when they, when they issue.

00:19:33.980 YouTube is shutting down all discussions of voter fraud on a, on a widespread basis.

00:19:38.680 You're not allowed to do that.

00:19:39.640 If you try to say it on Twitter, you get a warning.

00:19:41.680 You get a warning.

00:19:42.340 Yeah.

00:19:42.820 And, and so the bottom line is you get a warning with disinformation.

00:19:46.040 What about YouTube shutting it down?

00:19:48.160 You know, look, I don't know exactly what, what's the standard that they're using to, to shut

00:19:51.520 down.

00:19:51.760 What is, I don't even, I don't know exactly what, what does it matter?

00:19:54.480 If you want to talk about, if you, if I want to get on YouTube and say, people, I believe

00:19:59.420 there was widespread voter fraud.

00:20:00.980 I believe it because Donald Trump was running in an economy that had dwarfed all other economies

00:20:05.400 before Corona because he, he, no, no president who's increased his share of the national vote

00:20:10.820 by 10 million voters has ever then gone on to lose the electoral college or whatever.

00:20:14.860 If I want to say that this is still America, I should be allowed to say that.

00:20:19.020 And, and you feel the same, you can say it wherever you, you can say it whenever you

00:20:22.960 want.

00:20:23.200 It's a question of whether, okay, but that's a private company.

00:20:26.800 You said you should be able to say it.

00:20:28.240 You can still say it.

00:20:29.320 It's just a question of whether YouTube has to host it.

00:20:31.660 That's a separate question.

00:20:32.480 Why can I go on YouTube and question the 2016 election, but not the 2020 election?

00:20:36.660 Because again, questioning, again, questioning the election.

00:20:39.600 And again, I don't know what the standard is that was used by YouTube as to, you know,

00:20:43.860 what the discussion was, but I think you'd agree, right?

00:20:46.340 That should YouTube monitor, restrict, limit QAnon talk about pedophilia and made up stuff

00:20:55.300 against Democrats.

00:20:56.180 Would you agree that that stuff should be censored, monitored?

00:21:00.020 I don't know, monitored, maybe, but my, my free speech parameters are very, very broad.

00:21:08.380 No one's, when no one's restricting your free speech, it's just about a question of

00:21:11.140 where you can do it.

00:21:12.000 And so it's viewpoint discrimination.

00:21:13.980 It's viewpoint discrimination.

00:21:15.040 They only crack down on the conservatives.

00:21:16.820 Yes, they do.

00:21:17.260 For that, it's crossed over, Dan, saying you can't get out there.

00:21:21.520 Insulting conservatives, I think it's an insult to conservatives to suggest that somehow QAnon

00:21:26.400 stuff or the voter fraud.

00:21:28.660 I mean, this is, this shouldn't be conservative values.

00:21:31.660 How about Victor Davis Hanson?

00:21:33.040 Is he a nutcase?

00:21:34.200 Is he a nut?

00:21:34.820 Is he some crazy loon?

00:21:36.900 What did he say?

00:21:37.320 Victor Davis Hanson has been out there raising real questions about voter fraud from the beginning.

00:21:40.040 And he's a brilliant guy.

00:21:41.220 And he's a, he's a fellow at the Hoover Institution and taught at Stanford and, or was, was, was

00:21:46.840 there.

00:21:48.080 He's been raising questions like this.

00:21:49.640 Should he be banned from YouTube if he wants to put out a video?

00:21:51.620 I mean, he's got a podcast.

00:21:52.400 So, so should his podcast be banned?

00:21:54.800 Because what's happening right now is the baby's getting swept out with the bathwater.

00:21:58.800 As they say, like, you shouldn't be issuing threats to go storm the Capitol and bring

00:22:02.520 your guns.

00:22:02.940 They're also saying, and no more discussion of widespread voter fraud.

00:22:05.920 That's what got us into this mess.

00:22:07.420 Well, you've gone too far now.

00:22:08.720 Now you've gone too far.

00:22:09.700 Look, I agree that people should be able to, you know, no one should be punished for

00:22:15.840 saying, I think there's voter fraud.

00:22:18.300 I mean, I think that they should be, you know, corrected.

00:22:20.900 And I hope that people who understand and know the facts will be able to tell them why.

00:22:25.720 And I engage at my radio show every day with Trump supporters who call in and I try and

00:22:30.360 explain to them the various arguments.

00:22:32.460 And I shouldn't even say Trump, it's only a, because I, again, I don't think it's just

00:22:36.820 Trump support.

00:22:37.320 It's, it's an element of the Trump supporters who, who simply, you know, refused to accept

00:22:42.360 that the election was won by Biden.

00:22:44.000 I don't, I don't attribute that to all Trump supporters.

00:22:46.480 But the numbers, just to jump in quickly, the numbers are pretty, they're big on people

00:22:50.300 who think the election, you know, was not legit.

00:22:53.280 Which is why I think it's so important to emphasize that there wasn't a single member

00:22:57.240 of Congress in the proceeding, in the impeachment proceeding, who said the election was stolen.

00:23:01.520 More with Danny Abrams in just one second.

00:23:03.320 But first, my mother-in-law is awesome.

00:23:06.700 I'm very lucky.

00:23:07.700 And she is one of the, she's kind of old school when it comes to her technology.

00:23:11.180 One time I borrowed her hairdryer and it was like, I don't even know what it was.

00:23:14.580 It was like attached to a big box.

00:23:16.280 It was like a hose coming out of a big box.

00:23:18.260 So I'm just saying, she's kind of old school when it comes to her technology.

00:23:22.400 And the same is true when it comes to her pictures.

00:23:25.180 She still takes pictures with those little windup cameras you can get at CVS.

00:23:28.380 You know, the kind like sometimes you see them at weddings in the middle of the table,

00:23:31.520 which is great for her to preserve memories.

00:23:33.800 But she never, she never gets to see them.

00:23:35.680 Never.

00:23:36.140 Right.

00:23:36.340 It's like, what do you do once you have that?

00:23:38.180 She, she doesn't, she doesn't always print them out when she's got them printed out.

00:23:40.880 She can never share them with people who aren't in her presence and so on.

00:23:44.520 People, that's where legacy box comes in.

00:23:46.540 Now, Jackie would never call up legacy box because I don't think she'd know how to get

00:23:51.080 online and do it.

00:23:51.720 But if you have a Jackie in your life, you can do it for them.

00:23:55.540 This is a great gift that you can offer somebody else or offer yourself.

00:23:58.960 If you, if you got a little Jackie inside of you, um, legacy box will help you preserve,

00:24:04.840 digitally preserve your home memories, your movies, your photos, so that you never have to

00:24:09.240 wonder where they are or how to get them, how to access them.

00:24:13.200 I mean, it's not just pictures because videotapes too.

00:24:15.140 Did you know that they are, they don't withstand the test of time.

00:24:18.200 These things start diminishing after 10 to 15 years.

00:24:21.240 How long have you been married?

00:24:22.400 Did you use it videotape to make it happen?

00:24:24.840 Well, now's the time because the sooner you digitally preserve this stuff, the better

00:24:28.720 off the recordings will be.

00:24:30.700 Uh, I actually sent in my own, uh, videotapes to these guys, my own, my old VHS tapes.

00:24:36.420 There were a bunch.

00:24:37.180 I sent one of them was, uh, me arguing during lawyer training because I thought my kids,

00:24:41.480 my kids would get a kick out of it.

00:24:42.580 So I came back in a flash drive and boy, did we have a good laugh at my expense.

00:24:45.820 The young wannabe lawyer, me.

00:24:47.920 So anyway, it can be something that's not that important to you.

00:24:50.560 And you just want to have a laugh like I did or something that that really does mean something

00:24:53.560 like your, the birth of your child or your wedding anniversary or your wedding itself.

00:24:57.680 Uh, and they make it super easy.

00:24:59.140 It's quick.

00:24:59.480 It's easy.

00:25:00.040 You, they basically send you a box.

00:25:01.800 You put your original footage in it.

00:25:03.600 Um, you use that kit and then you, you send it into them and their, their team will create

00:25:07.240 a digital collection by hand.

00:25:08.980 It all comes back to you.

00:25:10.180 It gets, it can be stored in the cloud, a thumb drive, a DVD, uh, all along with the

00:25:14.640 original media you sent.

00:25:15.660 Obviously nobody wants, no one wants the originals of me standing there learning how to argue

00:25:19.300 cases.

00:25:20.820 Right?

00:25:21.280 I think.

00:25:21.920 Yeah.

00:25:22.200 Anyway, there's a tracking system so you can follow every step of the process in case you're

00:25:25.160 paranoid about them stealing it, which you don't need to be because they won't.

00:25:27.740 Uh, and this is a great company over the past 10 years.

00:25:29.780 Legacy box has helped more than a million families restore and protect irreplaceable

00:25:33.300 moments from the past.

00:25:34.180 So go to legacy box.com slash MK to take advantage of this limited time offer and get 50% off five.

00:25:41.240 Oh, that's the best offer we have.

00:25:43.180 That's an exclusive offer.

00:25:44.700 It won't last long.

00:25:45.580 So order their kit now and then just send it in whenever you're ready or start collecting

00:25:49.320 your, the Jackie in your life, her cameras or her footage or her slides and send it in

00:25:54.880 when you're ready.

00:25:55.640 Legacy box.com slash MK for 50% off while supplies last.

00:26:05.420 But your point, I think broadly about sort of the dangers of a few very large companies

00:26:14.160 having so much power is well taken, which is that, that my concern, um, is how big these

00:26:22.840 companies are, right?

00:26:23.860 If you were to say to me, oh, you know, there's some company said, oh, okay, they're a private

00:26:27.100 company.

00:26:27.740 They can do what they want, right?

00:26:28.920 That's the legal argument.

00:26:30.100 But the, the practical argument is about the size and influence that these companies

00:26:34.920 have.

00:26:35.520 Now, with regard to the argument that sort of conservatives are always sort of the one

00:26:39.420 censored, which I know is the argument that's made, you know, something like Facebook,

00:26:42.300 the, the leading stories and trends on Facebook are always from conservatives.

00:26:46.960 It's always, you know, it's always Dan Shapiro.

00:26:49.240 Let me ask you this.

00:26:50.820 Why, why does, why does Amazon, um, why does Amazon book parlor off of its service and its

00:26:58.600 servers?

00:26:58.980 And it doesn't boot Facebook, which is where, according to Glenn Greenwald, who's been studying

00:27:03.160 this, most of the planning for the riot took place.

00:27:06.160 Yeah.

00:27:06.640 So, and I think that parlor's got to go, but Facebook is fine.

00:27:10.200 Look, I'm not going to sort of explain Amazon's policies because I, you know, I'm not there

00:27:14.700 in the conversations obviously, but, but, but I think the argument would go and I would

00:27:18.160 accept this, um, if the evidence bore it out, which is the idea that parlor's moderation,

00:27:23.640 uh, was simply not as vigorous as needed.

00:27:27.340 And if you look at whatever Facebook's moderation was, it didn't work well either.

00:27:31.580 I mean, if you're going to look at end result and what gets through the screeners, Facebook's

00:27:35.160 in a worse position than parlor.

00:27:36.640 But that goes to your argument about throwing the baby out with the bathwater, which is that

00:27:39.840 if what they can't do is they can't just look to results.

00:27:42.600 You can't begin to make decisions.

00:27:45.240 If you're an Amazon based on, well, let's look at how many people on Facebook said you

00:27:50.060 have to have an objective policy and you could argue it's not, but, but you have to try to

00:27:54.300 have an objective policy, which simply says, okay, so here's our standard, which is if you

00:27:59.400 don't engage in moderation by doing X, Y, and Z and Facebook and Twitter say they have

00:28:04.280 all these advanced algorithms and this and this and that, and maybe, you know, maybe

00:28:07.060 they don't work well enough, et cetera.

00:28:08.560 But parlor, um, you know, and I'm on parlor, but it was a, you know, it was a disaster leading

00:28:16.080 up to, uh, January 6th.

00:28:18.160 Not worse than Facebook.

00:28:18.980 I don't defend what was on parlor, but to shut them down permanently, but to shut them

00:28:24.080 down permanently.

00:28:24.840 They didn't shut them down.

00:28:25.940 They just don't let them use the service.

00:28:27.560 Amazon booted them off of the service.

00:28:28.680 Dan, that's the, that's the death of parlor's business.

00:28:31.120 That's it.

00:28:31.960 It's over for parlor unless they can find somebody else to provide them service.

00:28:34.720 And it's a very limited universe.

00:28:37.280 It is, but you know what they're going to have to do?

00:28:38.920 And I'm confident that they can do this.

00:28:41.280 Just engage in a little more moderation, right?

00:28:45.280 Don't, don't.

00:28:45.920 That's not what they offered to do that.

00:28:47.540 They, I, I interviewed the parlor yesterday.

00:28:49.960 They offered to do that.

00:28:51.360 Amazon, Amazon said, no, that won't do it.

00:28:54.400 Then they said, Amazon, can we, we'll use your technology, your screening technology to

00:28:58.460 keep out talk of violence.

00:28:59.420 And so on Amazon said, no.

00:29:00.940 And then they went to other providers whose, whose servers they could potentially get on

00:29:05.560 and said, here are all the million things we're going to do to crack down on this, these

00:29:09.160 kinds of discussions, even more strictly than we have.

00:29:11.400 And they said, okay, we'll do it.

00:29:12.660 And they spent all night.

00:29:14.040 You wouldn't name the company out of respect for the guy who was trying to help him trying

00:29:16.820 to get these things back online only to then be shamed out of having any relationship

00:29:20.660 with parlor to pretend that this isn't a viewpoint crackdown is to ignore reality.

00:29:26.140 They don't want parlor out there because parlor has become known as the conservative

00:29:29.820 Twitter, Jack Dorsey doesn't want it.

00:29:32.380 Big tech, which acts as a behemoth, doesn't want it.

00:29:35.660 And I think there's legitimate reason to be scared if you're on the right half of this

00:29:39.160 country about whether you're going to be able to say what you feel if it's not approved

00:29:42.600 by big tech.

00:29:44.080 Yeah.

00:29:44.260 I mean, again, I think that, I think that on the whole, that just doesn't hold up based

00:29:50.140 on the numbers.

00:29:50.900 I mean, again, you look at the Facebook numbers and you look at the fact how dominant conservatives

00:29:55.880 are on Facebook and the notion that, oh, that, you know, they're just a bunch of liberals.

00:30:00.280 It's like, well, if that's the case, then they're doing a really bad job of what they're

00:30:04.320 doing on Facebook because that's not who's dominating there.

00:30:07.620 But that's since conservatives have gotten a foothold in Facebook and taken over more

00:30:12.540 and more of its platform.

00:30:13.380 We've seen more and more pushback from Mark Zuckerberg.

00:30:16.320 Right.

00:30:16.500 I mean, more and more pushback isn't based on it.

00:30:19.180 Look, the pushback isn't based.

00:30:21.000 Mark Zuckerberg is definitely on the left, right?

00:30:25.300 But the idea that Mark Zuckerberg is going to make a decision based on sort of politics

00:30:32.380 versus business.

00:30:33.880 I mean, look, the business right now on Facebook in terms of the sort of political stories

00:30:38.980 is coming largely from conservatives.

00:30:40.560 On Twitter, that's not the case, by the way.

00:30:42.220 Twitter seems to be more like 70 percent liberal.

00:30:46.720 Facebook, definitely different.

00:30:48.460 But my point is just to sort of lump them all together and say, oh, you know, everyone's

00:30:52.780 out to get the conservatives.

00:30:54.080 Look, Parler's a unique and I think a very interesting and important discussion to have,

00:30:58.540 right?

00:30:58.880 Because that is exclusively almost a conservative platform.

00:31:04.860 And there's got to be a way to draw the line between simply conservative viewpoints and,

00:31:12.540 you know, radicals who are planning violence.

00:31:17.420 And and and if it's true, I hope I hope what the Parler CEO told you isn't all true.

00:31:23.740 I don't know.

00:31:24.240 Right.

00:31:24.780 Because if it's true that they are ready to engage in more moderation and aggressive moderation

00:31:32.040 and they are seeking help, if you're a little company that's just started, you know this

00:31:37.900 because you're a media CEO and and Amazon comes to you and says, we're shutting you down.

00:31:43.820 And by the way, they're claiming that they had zero notice from Amazon, that they have

00:31:46.760 weekly meetings with Amazon.

00:31:48.180 Amazon never once said you've got to do something more.

00:31:50.700 They have a system in place.

00:31:51.700 They have a jury of peers who reviews.

00:31:53.420 They call them parlays, not tweets.

00:31:56.400 So they were blindsided.

00:31:58.020 Amazon says we're pulling the servers.

00:31:59.700 You're off.

00:32:00.600 You're offline.

00:32:02.480 You know what?

00:32:03.360 You wouldn't say, screw you.

00:32:05.060 We are standing by our jury of peers.

00:32:06.880 You'd say, Amazon, we will do whatever you want.

00:32:09.740 Please don't ruin our business.

00:32:11.740 And by the way, Amazon, I mean, Parler has said they are happy if if Amazon will let them

00:32:17.480 to put out all of the correspondence, all of the all of the emails, all the texts, everything

00:32:22.040 that they've had with the Amazon so far.

00:32:24.020 Amazon's not agreeing to that.

00:32:26.040 Yeah.

00:32:26.220 The problem is that Parler's sort of defining call.

00:32:30.420 Right.

00:32:31.160 Was effectively unmoderated.

00:32:34.300 Right.

00:32:34.500 It was basically saying, leave Twitter because of all their moderation and come to us because

00:32:39.720 we're not going to engage in that.

00:32:41.540 What their approach is much, much closer to the First Amendment.

00:32:44.280 They're basically saying we're going to censor speech that that is unlawful speech under the

00:32:47.580 First Amendment.

00:32:49.220 OK.

00:32:49.620 And but but apparently and again, you look at and there was an article on media about

00:32:53.700 this, about sort of all of the things that were on Parler when they claimed that actually

00:32:57.400 there wasn't, you know, sort of this talk of violence.

00:33:01.780 It was you know, it was a problem.

00:33:04.200 And and again, did you do that for Facebook?

00:33:07.300 With regards to again, when you have to look at the numbers, Facebook, go to Facebook.

00:33:12.180 Why don't you post all the posts that were on Facebook?

00:33:13.880 The person that went.

00:33:16.100 What where where is the media article on all the posts on Facebook that led up to the Capitol

00:33:21.580 Hill riots that this thought this gets to the whole point?

00:33:24.620 It's I got to talk to not you.

00:33:26.440 I got to talk to your dad, Floyd Abrams.

00:33:28.320 He understands me.

00:33:29.460 He he is the story.

00:33:31.280 This isn't about the First Amendment.

00:33:32.840 This isn't about the First Amendment.

00:33:34.540 No, it's not.

00:33:35.020 It will be.

00:33:35.360 It will be soon.

00:33:36.540 It will be companies.

00:33:37.280 I understand that perfectly.

00:33:38.620 Trust me.

00:33:39.160 I I practiced law for 10 years, but they have become so big.

00:33:42.880 There is case law that when you become this big and you're as you control the airwaves

00:33:46.940 as much as these companies do, you cross over into state action.

00:33:50.680 And that's that's the future.

00:33:52.340 That's the future for these guys.

00:33:54.060 Look, and I even said to you, I said at the beginning, my concern is their size.

00:33:58.400 My concern is their power.

00:34:01.400 That scares me.

00:34:03.280 It scares me.

00:34:04.780 The idea that a few people have that much power and influence, be it Google, Facebook,

00:34:14.180 Twitter, a little less so.

00:34:15.420 But but, you know, the size of these companies is scary.

00:34:19.000 Yes, there's no doubt about it.

00:34:21.060 Um, but but again, I hope that if Parler is ready to engage in sort of active moderation,

00:34:30.160 I hope they're back.

00:34:31.720 I really do.

00:34:32.420 And when I say back, I hope they're back on all these platforms, because I think it's

00:34:36.240 important.

00:34:37.160 I don't think that we should that, you know, anyone who says, well, you know, good riddance,

00:34:42.120 um, you know, this and that.

00:34:43.620 No, no.

00:34:45.120 On in that way, I completely agree with you that that there ought to be a place where

00:34:50.200 people who feel Twitter is too liberal ought to be able to have their own.

00:34:53.480 Exactly.

00:34:54.380 That's that's why it burns so badly, because they, you know, Twitter is liberal.

00:34:58.100 And the response has sort of been, you don't like it.

00:35:00.860 Go create your own platform, which is American.

00:35:03.260 I get it.

00:35:04.240 And so they did.

00:35:05.520 And and the response now is, fuck you.

00:35:08.720 So it's like you're shut down.

00:35:10.840 Listen, I want to I want to shift gears with you on this because I stole the last word.

00:35:14.120 But I do know your fear is genuine, because as I sort of referenced at the top of the show,

00:35:19.820 you've experienced cancel culture in a way that I thought was really unfair.

00:35:24.900 And I tweeted about because you hosted the most popular show on cable live PD, which was

00:35:32.780 on A&E.

00:35:33.380 And people talk about like Tucker's ratings or in a big night, Rachel Maddow's ratings

00:35:37.860 live PD on its average night was outrating all of those shows.

00:35:42.320 This it was great.

00:35:43.900 It was so fun to watch.

00:35:45.000 It was and it was like sleeper hit.

00:35:48.200 You know, nobody expected it, I think, to be quite that big.

00:35:50.900 But it was American.

00:35:52.560 The American people loved it.

00:35:54.520 And crazily, it got canceled in the wake of all the the BLM protests and the terrible

00:36:01.620 accusations being levied against police over the summer.

00:36:05.160 And I don't know.

00:36:06.600 I'd love to get you to talk about how you feel about that and what the future may hold on

00:36:11.300 that front.

00:36:11.680 Well, look, I was very disappointed when it was canceled and I was frustrated because,

00:36:19.500 you know, I understood how much pressure the the network must have been under.

00:36:25.640 I wasn't involved in in their discussions, but I thought and still think it provides an

00:36:33.860 important insight and it provides an important look at how police officers do what they do.

00:36:41.180 Now, look, there was an incident that had occurred that I think was the the the final straw,

00:36:46.940 so to speak, because there had been a a police chase in a controversial county with a controversial

00:36:55.500 sheriff where a man died at the hands of police after a chase and live PD cameras were there.

00:37:04.820 It didn't air on live PD for because, you know, the policy at the time was you don't show when someone dies

00:37:12.840 on camera.

00:37:14.580 I didn't even know that this had happened.

00:37:16.420 I didn't even know that the tape, et cetera, but became aware of it.

00:37:21.000 And, you know, looking back at that incident, in my view, the mistake that was made was that we didn't air.

00:37:29.540 If I had known about it, I would have said, of course, we should air.

00:37:32.660 And and that would have, in my view, delivered on the promise of transparency in policing.

00:37:41.420 Now, they went and shot this while live PD wasn't on the air.

00:37:44.500 It was during a break and they were taping for future episodes.

00:37:49.760 We had certain taped elements.

00:37:52.280 But to me, that was the that was the error.

00:37:55.560 And, you know, look, my heart breaks for the family of Javier Ambler, who who died there.

00:38:01.160 But people have made this the people who wanted to see live PD go away.

00:38:07.560 And I think many people who simply just don't like police wanted to find something to eliminate the show.

00:38:17.520 And I think they found a number of things which I think and still think certainly should not have led to the end of the show.

00:38:27.280 And I believe that there were ways to make some changes, for example, on something like that happening where, you know, there's an incident that is, you know, an ugly incident and a horrifying, horrible incident that still has to.

00:38:45.960 So we've got to we've got to figure out a way to air that that that that, you know, and this goes to your feeling broadly about sort of more speech, you know, showing more is better.

00:38:55.520 Transparency is better.

00:38:56.380 And I think that was, you know, I think that's the the the change that I think would occur if and when live PD comes back.

00:39:08.740 I hope it does come back because it was a great show.

00:39:10.920 It was really entertaining.

00:39:11.900 You did a good job.

00:39:13.500 And I think, you know, placing one's hope in the marketplace of ideas winning out in the end, you know, and and just a popularity in the same way there was a Roseanne reboot.

00:39:22.300 I hope there's a live PD reboot, although I wanted to include its original host, unlike the Roseanne reboot.

00:39:28.080 Yes, yes, exactly.

00:39:29.300 And look, and I do think that we've come around.

00:39:31.740 I mean, I think that that, you know, police were getting it in all directions this summer.

00:39:38.780 And, you know, look, I think that, you know, I think you share my view, which is that police officers who engage in wrongdoing should be held accountable,

00:39:49.020 that that there's a fair argument and discussion to have that increased accountability.

00:39:53.800 But that doesn't mean that you sort of, you know, wipe this sort of this broad brush to say police officers X or police officers Y.

00:40:05.220 You know, we don't do that about members of the military.

00:40:09.280 Incidents happen in the military.

00:40:11.140 And look, and by the way, you know, one of the inspirations for the show was the embedding of the troops.

00:40:17.100 Remember in when during the during one of the early 2000s, when the American troops were there were media members, journalists embedded with the troops.

00:40:30.000 And, you know, the and, you know, it's so interesting that that the live PD argument now has been, you know, oh, live PD doesn't show police doing bad things.

00:40:44.520 And the truth is that the argument at the outset was, oh, live PD is going to just show police, you know, in a too much of a positive light.

00:40:54.320 And, you know, it's sort of like shifts as to what the criticism is going to be of of the show, depending on on the day.

00:41:03.520 But look, I think that if if we can recreate, you know, bring back the idea that transparency and policing is a good thing.

00:41:14.900 Police officers are now wearing body cameras. I think that's a good thing.

00:41:18.680 I think that the show is not just a good and entertaining one, but can be an important one.

00:41:24.320 So just rounding back is listening to you talk and your reference to, you know, what I've said, what you said, what the Supreme Court has said.

00:41:34.000 The answer to speech you don't like is not less speech, it's more speech.

00:41:39.140 What do you make of? I actually haven't had the chance to ask you this.

00:41:42.160 What do you make of the news networks cutting away from Trump's voter fraud?

00:41:48.060 Let's settle on unsupported voter fraud claims.

00:41:52.600 I don't have a problem with that. I don't think they're obligated to to hold to, you know, to stay for a press conference.

00:42:00.300 They're not obligated. But but what do you think of the decision?

00:42:03.160 You know, the choice to to say, no, this is just too incendiary to run.

00:42:07.200 Well, it's not just too incendiary. It's a lie. I mean, that's the problem is that.

00:42:11.180 So I mean, but if you go by that, so they shouldn't air presidential lies.

00:42:14.340 When I say lies, again, not all lies are created equal. Right.

00:42:18.760 Political leaders lie. Politicians lie.

00:42:22.040 When the when the president of the United States is lying about our democracy being broken,

00:42:27.480 when the president of the United States is lying about the election, literally him winning in a landslide.

00:42:33.540 And look, if he was right. I'm not surprised that the Capitol would be stormed. Right.

00:42:40.280 I mean, if it was true that literally he won in a landslide and that the election was stolen from him based on corrupt election officials and voting machines and all the things that he's alleged.

00:42:52.900 My goodness, I'd expect that there would be an overtaking of the Capitol, this idea that our democracy is fundamentally broken.

00:43:02.020 That's how serious that's how serious the lie is. And that's why it's so important.

00:43:07.680 And that's why I do think it's OK that when the president starts talking about all of this, you know, these specific nonsensical issues about the election having been stolen from him.

00:43:17.680 You don't think it's better to to let him say it and then correct it?

00:43:21.420 No, because then he can go on for an hour. I mean, again, you'd have to do it in real time.

00:43:26.120 If you could do it in real time. Yes, I'd be OK with that.

00:43:29.560 But then you get into the business. I mean, look, CNN has gone absurd with the chyrons.

00:43:36.040 They're ridiculous. Their Trump derangement syndrome is a real problem.

00:43:39.940 And it's not. I mean, like, look, I would not have cut away from the president.

00:43:43.800 I would have let him. I mean, there's always the question of time as a news anchor.

00:43:46.760 There's only so many, you know, minutes in your show.

00:43:48.660 But it wasn't about that. It wasn't. And I would not criticize that because we all have to make those choices as news anchors.

00:43:55.360 But it wasn't about that. They were open about that. They were like, these are lies and we're not going to air them.

00:43:59.440 And my own view was that's not the way you do it.

00:44:02.340 You let him say what he wants to say and then you fact check him at the end, which I think is a much greater service to the audience.

00:44:07.760 And I said at the time, you know, you talk about lies, you know, consequential lies.

00:44:13.600 If you have your if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.

00:44:16.620 If you if you like your plan, you can keep your plan.

00:44:18.420 That that was hugely consequential, hugely consequential.

00:44:21.440 Somebody's health care, somebody's well-being, somebody's life.

00:44:24.700 And that lie was told over and over and over.

00:44:26.900 And I just like the thought of us cutting away from Barack Obama once we knew it was untrue.

00:44:30.900 Like, I'm just not going to air those lies anymore is absurd.

00:44:34.720 I never would have actually you actually think it's comparable.

00:44:37.400 You actually think that that the comparison to the comments that so many political leaders have mischaracterized legislation.

00:44:45.400 They always do. They always mischaracterize legislation.

00:44:48.820 And I'm not going to defend it. But the notion that you think that that is not a mere mischaracterization of legislation.

00:44:55.200 That was a fundamental lie he told to get a law passed that would change one sixth of the U.S. economy without.

00:45:03.940 Without support, without majority support.

00:45:06.020 But this is this is the ultimate whataboutism. It really is.

00:45:09.560 It's like sometimes whataboutism is important.

00:45:12.340 Sometimes whataboutism is the way you point out hypocrisy and a double standard.

00:45:15.900 That's true. That's true. That's true.

00:45:17.740 But this is this to me is such a far.

00:45:21.620 Or if and I know and I've you know, the number of times I've heard this particular it's this single incident.

00:45:26.780 And again, I'm not going to defend Obama, but the notion that somehow that's comparable to saying that the election was stolen.

00:45:35.080 To me, borders on absurd.

00:45:37.900 I think when you're talking about lying directly to the American people over and over about something that could affect their life, their life, their ability to stay alive.

00:45:47.740 But the problem is it's pretty big. There are too many other examples like that of leaders, you know, from Obama to Clinton to Reagan to Bush.

00:45:57.240 I mean, we could sit here and we could we could isolate real lies that they told the American people.

00:46:02.640 That's my point. That's my point.

00:46:03.200 But again, let the politician lie.

00:46:05.220 If the politician lies, the consequences are you you fire them.

00:46:09.880 You fire their ass. They don't get a second term.

00:46:11.940 And guess what? That happened.

00:46:12.860 It's not some stupid news anchor.

00:46:16.300 And nine times out of 10, these are not these are not the brightest bulbs in our intellectual pocket.

00:46:21.140 But if that's to decide what is true and what's not true for the American people, better to come on with a fact check of they filed 24 claims so far.

00:46:30.120 Twenty four out of 24 have been thrown out of court, not just by judges who were appointed by Bill Clinton, but by Trump appointed by Bush appointed.

00:46:36.260 Like, that's what you do as a news anchor.

00:46:38.180 And I feel like the reason I'm on this is because I thought what they did with him on that is indicative of the huge problem we've seen with the media all along during Trump.

00:46:46.420 Whatever your feelings are about the guy, I don't care if you hate him, you think he's the devil incarnate.

00:46:50.440 One of the reasons we're in the mess we're in where the people don't trust information they're being given and why they they believe the Kraken was coming and they stored the Capitol, believing that everything had been stolen.

00:46:59.940 One of the many reasons is the total collapse in trust in media.

00:47:04.260 And for that, the media has themselves to blame.

00:47:06.940 But but again, I would say that that that to sort of minimize the the Trump lie and say, oh, you know, they should air it and then they should fact check it.

00:47:14.800 You know, the bottom the problem is that that there are five people dead because the president kept echoing this lie again and again and again and again and again and again.

00:47:24.540 He kept saying it because I think you're right that I know I think you're out on now you're on a thin read.

00:47:29.940 Now you're on a that's that's blaming Bernie Sanders for the Steve Scalise shooting.

00:47:35.640 Wait, you're actually going to tell me, wait, wait, wait, you're going to actually suggest to me that it wasn't the president led lie that led to the storming of the Capitol.

00:47:46.360 I think you've got cause, in fact, but not proximate cause.

00:47:49.700 OK, I think that's illegal. That's a legal answer. I'm talking.

00:47:52.120 But it's important. It's important, Dan, because politicians say incendiary things all the time.

00:47:56.780 And and most don't say things like this and they don't and they don't run out and storm the Capitol and murder people.

00:48:04.880 The vast majority of Americans who heard that lie or untruth or unsupported statement and even those who believed it did not go storm the Capitol.

00:48:13.740 So I think you're it's I'm not defending anything Trump has done.

00:48:17.660 He's behaved abominably. He doesn't have an adult relationship with the truth.

00:48:20.960 I get all of that. I'm just saying that to then blame the behavior of a bunch of loons on explicitly those statements.

00:48:31.480 I think you're misunderstanding the nature of humanity and the buildup to this moment over the past four plus years in trust.

00:48:39.720 I'm not going to see that. That's that's that's the information.

00:48:41.980 That's where you start to make excuses, right?

00:48:43.840 The four years. I'm not making excuses for anybody.

00:48:46.100 Sure. No, absolutely.

00:48:47.060 When you include that in one of the reasons why I'm saying there's more there's more than one person to blame.

00:48:51.740 There is more than one person to blame.

00:48:53.260 There is one person to blame.

00:48:54.780 Failure to to believe.

00:48:56.540 No, no, you don't you don't think the media is totally sacrificed its complete sacrifice of its credibility to the point where they could be written off like that affected those people's ability to understand what's real and what's not.

00:49:08.060 I mean, I'll answer that question. But but first, I will say the notion that it's somehow, well, it's the president, but it's a lot of things.

00:49:16.580 He called them to the Capitol. This was his rally.

00:49:20.340 He told them to be peaceful, too.

00:49:21.920 If you want to get into what he specifically said.

00:49:24.120 But again, but he also used incendiary language.

00:49:26.700 Which, again, this is why my point is what happened, which he's done many times before and on a number of subjects and it hasn't broken out in violence.

00:49:33.760 I mean, look, we could debate this all day.

00:49:35.460 I want to make clear.

00:49:37.480 Look, I want to make clear about the sex.

00:49:39.860 OK, just just for the record, I'm not defending anything that happened on Capitol.

00:49:42.780 I know you're not. I'm not defending Trump.

00:49:44.340 I just want to because people sometimes have difficulty understanding.

00:49:47.240 Yeah. But you made a separate point about the media's and look, in particular, what breaks my heart as a sort of, you know, lover of the media and also as a political moderate is the level of distrust by conservatives of the mainstream media at this point.

00:50:03.700 And it really it upset. It really upsets me.

00:50:07.780 And I try to think about how can that change?

00:50:12.000 And something I've, you know, I've talked about publicly is, you know, I think that it would be helpful and there's no way this is going to happen on a sort of across the board.

00:50:21.460 But it would be helpful if more members of the media would be honest about their political views.

00:50:26.980 Right. And sort of because the problem is you get all these people who, you know,

00:50:32.600 the mainstream media on the whole is left of center and they don't admit it.

00:50:36.080 Right. There's no there's no admission on the part of the mainstream media.

00:50:39.560 Yeah. Yeah. We're typically left of center and sometimes very far left in terms of the people who tend to go into journalism.

00:50:48.600 Right. I think that you got to start from that point.

00:50:52.020 You have to start with that admission and then have a discussion about where do we go from here?

00:50:58.800 And and I think part of the place to go from here, and I think let's take Trump completely out of the equation for a moment,

00:51:05.120 is that there has to be at these news operations more political diversity in in the point of views of the people who are working behind the scenes.

00:51:15.360 I think that that would go a long way. Now, it may be so broken, at least for the next few years, that that wouldn't make a big difference.

00:51:23.280 Right. I mean, expect CNN to try to pivot back to the middle.

00:51:27.040 And there's no way anyone who is even right of center will ever say, oh, I could trust CNN.

00:51:33.800 So so, you know, it's a challenge. But but I think it is so important for the mainstream media to try to figure out a way to bring conservatives back into the fold.

00:51:46.500 Well, it's funny because, of course, I have many of my own experiences on this front, but I will tell you, having been somebody who's right of center, I don't call myself a conservative, though.

00:52:00.100 Frankly, I have no idea what the hell I am, given the way the country's shifting.

00:52:03.700 You know, like I don't I don't think I should try to define myself anymore.

00:52:06.880 I agree.

00:52:07.220 Right. So right. So somebody who I guess I'm certainly not a liberal, I can say that who went into NBC, I think it doesn't always work.

00:52:16.460 Right. If they're if they're not truly open minded to the way people who are not like they are ideologically think it can end in ruination and despair.

00:52:27.680 And just one other point on that. A couple of years ago, I went out and I spoke with a bunch of tech giants.

00:52:34.000 I mean, the presidents of the tech giants who are calling me in and asking me my opinion on how they could be, to borrow a term, more fair and balanced in their in the way they present the news, in the way they call information online.

00:52:48.460 And I said, you know, I won't get specific here about who I spoke to, but I mean, it was the presidents.

00:52:56.520 You need you need more conservatives on on your board.

00:53:00.540 You know, whoever's reviewing the information, making these decisions, you need actual conservatives.

00:53:04.640 I'm not talking about The Washington Post, Jen Rubin, right, or Steve Schmidt, right?

00:53:08.900 These hardcore never Trumpers who are obvious liberals who used to wear conservative clothing.

00:53:13.060 You need legitimate conservatives here who are open minded to help you make these decisions.

00:53:19.700 And I I just think there may not actually be a desire to do it.

00:53:24.520 People are so entrenched in their tribalism right now, in their partisanship.

00:53:29.860 They say they want to do it, but they don't really want to do it.

00:53:33.420 They find those views abhorrent.

00:53:34.960 They secretly might harbor the feelings we heard Don Lemon espouse the other night, which is, you know, if you're if you voted for Trump, you're a Nazi.

00:53:41.440 You know, you support the Klan.

00:53:44.060 And so once they start to hear the person talk, there's a recoiling.

00:53:48.960 And so I feel kind of hopeless about I don't think my heart is broken, as you say, but I definitely feel hopeless and I feel kind of angry about the destruction of media and what was to me a suicide.

00:54:00.860 Well, look, and again, this becomes a longer discussion.

00:54:06.740 I think that, you know, that Trump broke the media in many ways.

00:54:12.540 And and I think he did it on purpose and he succeeded.

00:54:18.800 Um, but there is no doubt that, um, I think some in the media, um, you know, uh, allowed it to to happen.

00:54:29.820 Um, so it's, uh, look, it's tough.

00:54:34.360 It's it's there's no there's no finite answer to the question of how to how to fix the lack of of trust.

00:54:41.060 Um, but, um, you know, look, I know I've always taken very seriously and always take it as a, you know, uh, as a great compliment when someone says to me, you know, look, you're a straight shooter.

00:54:53.840 You tell me where you're coming from.

00:54:55.120 You know, you you play it straight, um, et cetera.

00:54:58.040 And, um, I know that, that everyone in the media views themselves that way.

00:55:05.720 The problem is that a lot of them, uh, don't live their lives that way.

00:55:11.560 Um, and, uh, it's not always, it's not always true.

00:55:14.800 And I, I'll tell you just one other point.

00:55:16.960 One of the reasons why it so angers me when I see, you know, just the, the, again, the Trump derangement, for lack of a better term, it's just short forming, you know, blinding bias against him.

00:55:28.040 Is I understand how awful he can be.

00:55:32.900 Trust me.

00:55:34.060 I understand.

00:55:35.500 But as journalists, we're supposed to check our personal feelings.

00:55:39.920 We're supposed to try really hard to stick to facts and straight analysis.

00:55:47.760 And I just, it just, it's become advocacy journalism wherever I turn.

00:55:52.820 And there's so few who I trust not to do that.

00:55:55.940 You know, it's, and to me, it's disheartening because you have to work so hard now to find the facts.

00:56:02.100 How many articles do you have to read every day?

00:56:03.440 How many different papers?

00:56:04.260 How many different sources?

00:56:05.180 So you can make sure you know what's real, right?

00:56:07.820 As opposed to somebody's spin or incomplete presentation.

00:56:11.560 It wasn't always thus.

00:56:13.380 Look, I think conversations like this, people like you who are a little to the left, a little to the right.

00:56:17.120 And I, um, talking and, you know, debating is really healthy.

00:56:23.200 I'd love to see more of that.

00:56:24.440 So maybe, maybe we'll expand the show.

00:56:26.320 I agree.

00:56:27.240 The Kelly Abrams show.

00:56:29.020 Take it on the road.

00:56:30.340 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:56:32.120 Oh, listen, thank you for always being so smart.

00:56:35.160 I mean, Dan was one of the only people to get the Duke lacrosse case right because he wasn't blinded by ideology.

00:56:40.300 And, um, you've been right on, on a lot, not, not during this particular conversation, but in general.

00:56:47.200 Exactly.

00:56:48.760 All right.

00:56:49.400 All the best.

00:56:50.420 Always a pleasure.

00:56:53.280 Eric Bolling is going to be here in just one second.

00:56:55.660 But first, let's talk about Armbrust USA.

00:56:59.080 We all know by this point where the coronavirus came from, but you know where your mask came from?

00:57:03.440 Because it matters.

00:57:04.620 That PPE shortage we faced as a nation was due to the outsourcing of American manufacturing to China.

00:57:10.860 Well, the founder, Lloyd Armbrust, of this company started it to start bringing back manufacturing to the U.S.

00:57:16.660 and ensure that this kind of thing never happens again.

00:57:19.420 This is a company that produces the materials and the masks in its Texas factory.

00:57:24.080 And if we don't want the country to shut down interminably, the truth is we're going to have to mask it up.

00:57:28.840 And you may not like it, but you know, you got to do it.

00:57:30.800 And the truth is not all masks are up to the task.

00:57:33.760 Unlike these cloth masks you see or gaiters or bandanas, the non-medical ones, Armbrust USA surgical masks

00:57:39.580 are FDA listed and independently certified to have the highest level filtration.

00:57:45.320 They exceed the highest safety standard.

00:57:48.220 So, you know, why put it on if it's not going to do its job?

00:57:51.160 This one will.

00:57:51.800 It's triple layered.

00:57:52.540 It's breathable.

00:57:53.100 It's lightweight.

00:57:54.080 They come in a bunch of really nice colors.

00:57:56.300 My whole family's been enjoying it.

00:57:57.480 They're hypoallergenic.

00:57:59.140 And again, made in America.

00:58:00.980 So let's stay healthy.

00:58:02.180 Keep our economy going.

00:58:03.080 Go to Don'tShutDownMaskUp.com.

00:58:05.940 Enter code MK for a 15% discount on your first order of Armbrust USA masks.

00:58:11.420 That's Don'tShutDownMaskUp.com.

00:58:13.920 And use the promo code MK for 15% off your first order.

00:58:18.340 If you're going to have to wear these things, wouldn't you like to wear one made in America

00:58:21.060 by somebody who shares your values?

00:58:22.760 Go for it.

00:58:23.940 Okay.

00:58:24.340 So joining me now is my pal, Eric Bolling.

00:58:27.580 And I've been really looking forward to this conversation, Eric, because you've been a Trump supporter.

00:58:32.280 I think it's fair to say you've absolutely been able to report on him with open eyes toward the good that he does.

00:58:37.740 I've heard you be critical of him in the past as well.

00:58:40.160 And I haven't yet heard your take on these claims that he's responsible.

00:58:46.640 I realize he's had incendiary rhetoric for sure.

00:58:49.260 I mean, he's been pushing the electoral fraud thing really, really strongly and the stuff with Mike Pence and all that.

00:58:54.600 But the notion that he's to blame for what happened at the Capitol, what do you make of it?

00:58:58.720 So this is a really, really difficult.

00:59:02.320 Absolutely, clearly, you're 100% right.

00:59:04.200 I've been a Trump supporter.

00:59:05.860 I've been a friend of his for going on almost 20 years now.

00:59:09.100 I knew him when he was – before he was even a host of Apprentice and then Celebrity Apprentice.

00:59:13.900 So it is clear and I've always said, like him or not, he gets things done.

00:59:20.860 He got things done on television.

00:59:22.540 He got things done in business.

00:59:24.580 And he was getting things done in D.C., shook up D.C.

00:59:27.800 And I wrote a monologue this week and you were on the show, Megan, and it was all about how – what I didn't see coming was the dislike for Trump coming from both sides.

00:59:37.140 They knew the left would dislike him.

00:59:38.400 I didn't see that the right would dislike him just as much.

00:59:40.800 And what they tend to do is they want to protect what – their gravy train.

00:59:44.020 They tend to protect what was going on in D.C. status quo, the swamp, so to speak.

00:59:48.840 And he was shaking that up a little bit.

00:59:50.280 He was threatening the swamp and he got it from both sides.

00:59:53.280 I will tell you – he called me about three weeks ago and we had a discussion.

00:59:58.280 This was after he had lost the election.

01:00:00.040 And for the record, since day one, since November 4th, I had a show on November 4th, I was calling Joe Biden president-elect because Trump lost the election.

01:00:07.940 Anyway, after that, Trump calls me.

01:00:09.700 I'm watching a football game with Adrian.

01:00:13.080 And he's going on with this, yes, but I'm going to – we're going to work to overturn this thing.

01:00:18.960 And I just – I didn't have it in me to say, hey, you lost, but I did have it in me to say, look, I think whatever happens on January 6th or 20th or after January 20th,

01:00:28.640 you're going to be the biggest media entity on the planet.

01:00:32.040 And what I was trying to tell him was that he lost the election and he's still going to have a media profile and it's going to be massive.

01:00:37.940 And there's a way to use that, to use what he's done over the last four years to be sort of a power broker, to be a kingmaker, so to speak, in the republic, or at least on the right, right of center.

01:00:48.240 I believe that, but he didn't hear it.

01:00:50.440 He didn't want to hear it.

01:00:51.240 He was saying, I'm going to win this.

01:00:53.120 And I really thought that he's a smart enough man to realize that he had lost and he needed to continue to fight because his base likes him fighting for the win and representing them.

01:01:03.780 They felt that they were being marginalized over the eight years of Obama and continue to fight for them.

01:01:09.520 So, but after, you know, as we went into losing Georgia, when the Republicans lost Georgia and then Trump wanted to do the rally, I felt that was ill-advised, you know, and if I made some calls over there and some friends over there, I'm like, you know, I'm just not getting this.

01:01:25.520 I just don't think that Donald Trump, the man, understood that his base and to which, the extent to which his base was ready to, quote unquote, fight for real.

01:01:37.340 And so when he said, let's go march over there, I don't think he meant, let's go march over there and storm the Capitol.

01:01:42.240 I think he meant, let's go let them hear our voices because that's what he's always done.

01:01:45.900 They've always been loud.

01:01:46.760 There's always, you know, there are rallies, even to go back to the Tea Party, the right has always been vocal, but they were never violent, right?

01:01:53.420 And so I think it probably took, I haven't spoken to him since, so I can't confirm, but I think it probably took him by surprise when all of a sudden the Capitol started getting ambushed and that was wrong.

01:02:03.560 Those people broke the law.

01:02:04.660 They were awful.

01:02:05.380 They're terrible.

01:02:05.860 They should be held accountable.

01:02:06.760 They should all go to jail for doing what they did, but they heard a dog whistle, you know, and it was loud and clear to them.

01:02:12.740 What they heard was get over there and go knock the walls down and drag people out.

01:02:17.100 Unfortunately, I don't think that was the intent of Donald Trump.

01:02:19.640 I, I, I look again, I'm not in the guy's head.

01:02:22.000 I don't think, but shocked me, shocked me that there wasn't a bigger pushback as to, Hey, stop, stand down, get out of there.

01:02:28.200 But, you know, and then you also have to, and again, I'm not trying to defend this, anything that's happened, but, but where, where, if the FBI did know that there were plots and, and, and, you know, pre-planned, you know, plans to, to storm the Capitol and then hurt people or whatever they, they had plans.

01:02:46.920 Why weren't they, why wasn't there more security?

01:02:49.240 Why weren't they beefing up the perimeter?

01:02:51.520 Why didn't they call the, you know, they could call in the national guard.

01:02:54.320 I know Bowser could, and Trump could, but they could also, you know, petition the department of justice to call in the national guard and lock down the Capitol.

01:03:02.460 If the FBI, in fact, did know, which is what's being reported right now, I'm, here's my point.

01:03:07.480 Donald Trump went from what I thought could be a media monster, a megalomedia entity post January 20th to, I think his brand is severely tarnished.

01:03:17.820 And he's a friend of mine.

01:03:18.760 And I'll tell that to him, to his face.

01:03:20.580 I think he, he probably diminished, if not ruined his, his ability to run in 2024, unfortunately for him.

01:03:28.340 And I certainly think that some of the people that wanted to stay in, in high level politics are going to have a hard time.

01:03:34.900 I still think it's still a brand.

01:03:36.520 I still think, you know, I'm not ready to say it's over for MAGA world because I don't think, I think there still is a substantial MAGA group audience and, and, and the sane ones, the crazy ones, the fringe, they got to figure out a way to cut off the fringe, cut off the fat.

01:03:52.040 And they might still have a, may still have a stake there and that, not necessarily a filet mignon anymore, but maybe a New York strip, let's call it that way.

01:04:00.600 Ground chuck.

01:04:02.600 You know, I, I, there's a lot to unpack in there.

01:04:05.020 I definitely want to get to what, what does this mean for the younger Trumps?

01:04:08.920 Uh, because I think one of the, one of the things he did was not only did he really hurt his own brand, but he, he hurt his kid's ability to run for political office, which may be a good or bad thing, depending on how you view them.

01:04:22.120 He hurt his kid's ability to run a thriving business or already talking about taking his name off of buildings and that were already suffering thanks to coronavirus shutdowns and so on these hotels.

01:04:31.620 So, I mean, it's, you gotta be thinking, was it worth it?

01:04:35.820 If you're in the Trump family, was this worth it?

01:04:37.800 He could have pushed this to certification, you know, when, when the election was certified and then dropped it and accepted reality.

01:04:44.840 But he just like a dog with a bone, couldn't let it go.

01:04:48.980 And frankly, if you look at Trump's history, I guess that was totally foreseeable.

01:04:52.740 He just, he just doesn't, he doesn't let anything go.

01:04:56.020 He does, he doesn't.

01:04:56.920 So let me just jump back to what you said.

01:04:59.400 They heard a dog whistle.

01:05:00.300 Well, this is an interesting, this is an interesting idea because if you look at Trump's actual words that he spoke leading up to that rally and the people walking over to the Capitol, in my view, there's zero chance it amounted to legal incitement.

01:05:16.860 That, that was not legal incitement.

01:05:18.760 I mean, it would have to be explicit.

01:05:20.380 It would have to be, get your guns, get your zip ties.

01:05:24.420 We're going to the Capitol right now.

01:05:26.840 We are going to hurt Mike Pence, Nancy Pelosi, AOC, and we're going to, you know, take back this election together, right?

01:05:35.900 It has to be that explicit legally for it to be incitement.

01:05:40.160 But you're raising a different question.

01:05:42.360 What did he say and how was it heard?

01:05:43.900 And that's the question over four plus years now, five plus years of Trump either being president or running for, has his base gotten to the point where they see hidden messages, not so hidden messages in things that he says?

01:05:58.960 And should he have known that?

01:06:00.700 Yeah, I don't think there's any way you could have known that.

01:06:03.640 I didn't see it.

01:06:04.420 I literally watched that and I'm as, as, as much in tune to his base and the man himself speaking to him, interviewing a time, speaking to him randomly on phone because I've known him a long time.

01:06:15.820 I saw the group going over there.

01:06:18.380 I actually started seeing like, wait, they, they, it doesn't look like, all of a sudden there became violence.

01:06:23.940 I started seeing the pepper spray, which at first you didn't see.

01:06:26.140 I was like, they don't look very violent.

01:06:27.620 Now in hindsight, we know they were, I don't know that he could have, maybe there was Intel that said, all he has to do is blow the, blow the silent whistle.

01:06:36.820 And, and, you know, no one else will hear it except for them.

01:06:39.340 And they'll run over there and go crazy.

01:06:40.920 It's possible.

01:06:41.740 I just, I, I honestly think he was as shocked as, as the rest of us were.

01:06:47.720 I mean, I look at him again, as atrocious and horrendous as that video is of the family dancing in the, in the tent prior to the, to the rally.

01:06:55.880 You know, I, I, I think if there was knowledge of, of that, this was going to be some sort of battle cry in a few minutes, it would have been a lot more somber, a lot more serious moment.

01:07:05.660 So that's the difference.

01:07:06.660 That's the difference.

01:07:07.140 So, so an interesting question is if those rioters, if those, if those protesters hadn't turned into rioters, if they had marched over to the Capitol, stayed outside of the Capitol and said, we want to take our country back.

01:07:20.740 Trump won Biden's illegitimate.

01:07:23.760 I don't think we'd be here, but no, but now, but you're still, but you are seeing Democrats claim that, that encouraging people to sort of storm the Capitol, to pressure them to overturn a legitimate presidential election was impeachable.

01:07:42.400 So that the mere, like, if you look back at the, the weeks and weeks of Trump saying illegitimate, we won, take our country back.

01:07:49.520 This is fraudulent.

01:07:50.680 Uh, we'll never concede.

01:07:51.840 Some people believe that in and of itself was impeachable conduct because it's one branch of government effectively assaulting another, the legitimacy of a presidential election that had long since been decided.

01:08:03.160 What do you think of that?

01:08:04.480 Short of the mob, could this have been impeachable conduct?

01:08:06.800 If that is going to be the standard, then almost any political speech could be interpreted as, as impeachable or illegal.

01:08:16.140 I just don't think, how many times have you heard, fight for your, fight for your rights, fight for your rights.

01:08:20.720 If, if, if what he, and, and again, what happened is bad.

01:08:24.020 I got to clarify this because the left is going to go ballistic on me for, for, I'm not defending anything that happened.

01:08:29.420 It was awful.

01:08:29.900 It was terrible.

01:08:30.260 I just don't know that, that, that Donald Trump, I don't think he would be impeached had they, had there not been violence.

01:08:36.860 If they had just surrounded the Capitol and chanted, you know, we won, I don't think Donald Trump would be impeached right now.

01:08:43.020 And I think his, his reputation and brand would still be intact, but.

01:08:46.120 So I agree with you.

01:08:46.980 So that, so that raises two additional questions.

01:08:49.140 Number one, should the violence have been foreseen?

01:08:51.120 Um, and number two, even if it hadn't been foreseen, is he nonetheless responsible because he created the circumstances that led to it?

01:08:59.960 And then there's the third question, which you kind of touched on, which is why didn't he speak up sooner as it was going down?

01:09:04.720 As it was going down, he was sending out nasty tweets about Mike Pence.

01:09:08.340 There are reports that he was enjoying it as it first unfolded, though.

01:09:13.700 I haven't seen anything that specifically says he was enjoying the violent shots as opposed to the march over there.

01:09:18.300 Um, so, so how about that?

01:09:20.880 Like, should he, should he, should he politically be held responsible for creating the circumstances in which it happened and for being so slow to speak out against it?

01:09:30.920 Politically.

01:09:31.420 Yeah, yeah, politically.

01:09:32.260 That, that is a fair question.

01:09:34.120 Yes, he should.

01:09:35.480 Absolutely.

01:09:36.100 And politically, you know, the buck stops here.

01:09:38.560 It really does go straight to lay it at his feet because yes, he should have.

01:09:43.440 Then he should have had people surrounding him that, that would say, you know, if you, if you, if you put 40, 50,000 people here and then, you know, and they're, and they're jazzed, you better be careful because, you know, we have to be, you know, we have to be careful.

01:09:56.480 We don't want to send the wrong signal and have something bad happen.

01:09:58.820 But yeah, I, I just politically, yes.

01:10:01.660 Um, yeah, I, I, I guess that's fair.

01:10:04.100 I, I don't, you know, I, I, when I see an impeachment though, yeah, it's political, but I also feel like it goes, it, it supersedes politics there.

01:10:11.040 It's, it's, it's everything else too.

01:10:13.140 It's, it's, it's, it's, it's legal.

01:10:14.680 It's yeah.

01:10:15.520 Yeah.

01:10:15.820 Yeah.

01:10:15.980 Yeah.

01:10:16.480 And then they're doing it.

01:10:17.520 I think it's, it's very clear they're doing it because obviously since he's going to be out of office when, and if a Senate trial takes place, um, they, they, they want what they've always wanted, Eric, which is for him to never run for office again.

01:10:28.680 And this is their way of trying to officially make it so he can.

01:10:33.060 And I'm not talking just about Democrats.

01:10:34.420 You know, I think some of the, the people who have been loudest against Trump over the past week have been the never Trumpers who morphed into, all right, I'll deal with him begrudgingly.

01:10:44.780 Cause he's more on my side than the Democrats are.

01:10:47.280 Um, but when given this event, you know, they were like, that's it.

01:10:51.620 My initial instincts were right.

01:10:53.680 Never Trump again, get him out, make sure he can never resurface.

01:10:58.260 Mm-hmm.

01:10:59.540 You're a hundred percent.

01:11:00.580 Right.

01:11:00.780 And, and, and I look, they should want to impeach him so that he can never run again because political, political had a poll this week that showed that if on the right, who would be the most likely 2024 candidate and Trump, Donald senior was at 40% by far the, the, the top choice.

01:11:19.000 Don jr.

01:11:19.780 Is down at six.

01:11:20.780 Here's what I, my concern is.

01:11:22.140 I honestly thought Ivanka Trump had a shot to be the first female president in the United States.

01:11:28.300 I think her brand was intact.

01:11:29.640 She didn't, she didn't get involved in some of the, the kind of pseudo fringy things that were going on in different places.

01:11:36.360 And she kept her powder dry, so to speak.

01:11:38.680 And I think she's trying to, I have to tell you, I never thought that never Ivanka Trump doesn't seem, I don't believe all the awful things people write about it.

01:11:47.020 I hate her cause she's his daughter, but let's be honest.

01:11:50.240 She's not a dynamic personality.

01:11:51.820 She's not, she's sort of like a Scott Walker type who I really like, but you know, not, not exciting, not dynamic.

01:11:58.720 Doesn't motivate people very teleprompter based.

01:12:02.760 I would say out of the three kids, Don jr.

01:12:05.220 Is the one who's got the most flair, uh, akin to the dads.

01:12:10.100 Um, and, but I don't know.

01:12:11.720 I, I, I think Trump may have taken him out on, on his way out, you know?

01:12:16.740 Yeah.

01:12:17.220 I, as of now, but so, so all these things, these things tend to be big right now.

01:12:23.240 The left is just having a field.

01:12:24.560 I see, I told you I was right.

01:12:26.480 We were right.

01:12:27.060 He's terrible.

01:12:27.740 Look how awful he is.

01:12:28.860 Look what happened.

01:12:29.600 And, and, and they're, they're piling on the question here for them is, and I have friends

01:12:33.980 who are wildly liberal friends who I worked with at Fox who are producers who produce very

01:12:38.420 conservative, uh, content who are actual liberals who I, who've, who've been telling me this is

01:12:43.440 going to happen for a long time.

01:12:44.540 And my question is if it becomes too much of a, of an end zone dance, you're spiking

01:12:49.060 the ball in the end zone left and right.

01:12:50.540 I mean, you cannot turn on anything that's not Fox or, or Newsmax or, or whatever, and

01:12:55.720 not have them calling for him to, you know, go to jail and sedition and, and, and all these

01:13:01.220 things.

01:13:01.760 If, if, if they spike the ball too heavily, does he become a sympathetic character right

01:13:06.420 now?

01:13:06.760 He may be.

01:13:08.880 The one thing you can always count on is democratic overreach.

01:13:11.420 They will take any victory and turn it into a loss.

01:13:13.840 That's what's happening right now with a, you know, parlor being banned and, um, Trump

01:13:18.380 being banned from Twitter.

01:13:19.260 And now the, you know, the impeachment, you could definitely make a case.

01:13:23.560 He's leaving, he's leaving office and he's leaving under a cloud of shame.

01:13:29.640 Given what happened last week.

01:13:31.340 Why can't that be enough?

01:13:33.560 All this other stuff is only ginning up Trump's base more.

01:13:37.860 And I'm not talking about don't make them angry.

01:13:39.560 Don't hurt their feelings.

01:13:40.360 I'm talking about what is politically smart for the left to take the win that those rioters

01:13:45.880 gave them politically.

01:13:46.860 I speak of now and go to the moral high ground, try to legislate while you have some goodwill

01:13:53.000 on your side, rather than dance on the grave, dance on the grave and make sure the grave is

01:13:57.280 secure.

01:13:58.900 Dance on the grave, cancel the president and cancel anyone.

01:14:02.760 I mean, that Randall Lane from, from Forbes magazine, the editor of one of the editors

01:14:07.220 of Forbes saying that if you hire Kay, uh, Kaylee McEnany or Spicer or Sarah Huckabee

01:14:15.040 Sanders or Kellyanne Conway, if you hire them, whoever you are, corporate America, we will

01:14:19.980 assume that everything you say Forbes, not him, not a, not a guy writing an opinion piece

01:14:25.140 Forbes magazine will assume everything that company says is a lie.

01:14:28.900 I mean, that is, that is like cancel culture on steroids right there.

01:14:32.640 So not only do you want to cancel something the president says, now you want to cancel

01:14:36.240 anyone who ever worked with them.

01:14:37.660 Is this the first layer?

01:14:39.060 You know what I realized, Megan, being a, being an advocate of our friend of Trump's and,

01:14:43.540 and pro Trump for a long time.

01:14:45.480 And by the way, got us out of foreign wars, got us three Supreme court justices, lowered

01:14:49.740 our taxes, regulations got rolled back on and on.

01:14:52.240 No one remembers that, but, but I always supported that for those reasons.

01:14:55.000 But now it's like those 10 people who voted to impeach Trump on the right, on the GOP,

01:15:00.720 or anyone who was, who was a, uh, uh, an advocate of Trump or a pro Trump talking head here.

01:15:07.160 The left wants you to denounce Donald Trump in all ways, shapes, and forms.

01:15:11.280 He was awful.

01:15:11.860 He's a dictator.

01:15:12.500 They want you, they're begging you to do that.

01:15:14.360 They're demanding you do that, or you will be canceled too.

01:15:16.680 But here's, what's going to happen.

01:15:17.920 If you do that, they are going to pat you on the back and say, good job.

01:15:21.760 And then kick your ass on the way out the door, because they're not going to hire you.

01:15:25.040 They're not going to follow you anymore either.

01:15:26.600 Hell no.

01:15:26.960 You are literally, you are literally going to be a person without a country because

01:15:30.940 no, like Betsy DeVos, who I like, I like what she did.

01:15:35.740 A lot of the stuff she did as education secretary was really important, like restoring due process

01:15:40.000 rights on college campuses.

01:15:41.180 But so she resigned.

01:15:42.400 She's one of the ones who resigned as a cabinet official in the wake of the riot.

01:15:46.380 Is that going to lead to a group hug by the Democrats?

01:15:49.740 That's no, not, not for any of the Trump supporters.

01:15:54.660 And even, you know, Liz Cheney does the love that they have for her.

01:15:58.840 And I think it's ridiculous how Jim Jordan and others are trying to crap on her and boot

01:16:03.180 her out of leadership because she voted to impeach.

01:16:05.580 But she's not going to get any love from the left either.

01:16:07.860 She voted her conscience and Republicans should be able to understand that and support it,

01:16:12.900 even if she took a different position than they support.

01:16:15.520 I feel like Jim Jordan, he ought to just be quiet, kind of just he's grateful to the

01:16:19.720 president, I think, who stuck by him, even though he had his weird little I don't know

01:16:23.140 what happened when he was a wrestling coach at that university, but it was sketchy.

01:16:27.140 And and now like the somehow he has this, I guess, loyalty to Trump that makes him want

01:16:33.200 to stab any Republican who feels differently than he does, which is as I see this internal

01:16:37.520 civil war amongst the GOP, I think, you know, how's that going to go?

01:16:42.040 How are you guys going to win another election at this rate?

01:16:43.880 Well, there is a civil war in a couple of weeks ago or maybe probably right after the

01:16:49.100 election, I was on China TV.

01:16:50.620 Don't kill me.

01:16:51.400 But then I said there will never be another Republican president in America, not in my

01:16:55.480 lifetime, maybe ever, because like it or not, that's what happened.

01:16:59.260 Trump bifurcated the right.

01:17:00.700 The right was establishment.

01:17:02.240 He came in.

01:17:03.000 He upended the apple cart and then it became three lanes.

01:17:07.120 Now, now you have the established, the old school Republican, the old timers, the Mitt

01:17:12.600 Romney, Mitch McConnell, Mitt Romney's, then the never Trumpers, the people who can't stand

01:17:17.520 the guy who are on the right, but they just they couldn't send the Liz Cheney's people

01:17:20.760 who just they're never going to be a pro Trump.

01:17:23.180 And then the modern world.

01:17:24.920 I mean, it's literally three lanes on the right.

01:17:27.400 And and those three different factions don't get along with each other.

01:17:31.580 And somehow you're going to you're going to beat a Democrat.

01:17:35.040 And by the way, Democrats, the party of diversity, the big tent, the young, the future nominated

01:17:41.240 in a 78 year old guy to be president.

01:17:44.120 Their their speaker of the House is 80 years old.

01:17:47.080 Number two is 81 years old and number three is 80.

01:17:51.360 Vast majority of them are white.

01:17:53.140 I mean, they're united.

01:17:54.980 They didn't say, hey, we need to have young blood in there, fresh blood and hire and nominate

01:17:59.460 someone who may not have beaten Trump.

01:18:01.680 They wanted to win.

01:18:02.620 They were united to beat Trump.

01:18:04.120 They wanted to win.

01:18:04.900 They wanted to win.

01:18:05.480 I don't know if you're right about this.

01:18:07.140 OK, so I agree with the point in general.

01:18:09.120 But when you're talking about winning presidential elections, you look at Kamala Harris.

01:18:13.240 You think she's going to beat the next Republican nominee?

01:18:15.300 She couldn't even get the nomination.

01:18:16.920 She was she was not embraced by the Democratic Party.

01:18:19.820 She got dragged by him because he wanted diversity.

01:18:22.300 That's what I do explicitly.

01:18:23.340 Not because she's so good or she's so popular.

01:18:28.320 Who is the name of the Republican nominee that can that can unite the party.

01:18:32.780 And remember, the Republicans are at a demographic law, a disadvantage voting wise.

01:18:40.020 So you you have to have someone that's going to embrace MAGA, never Trump and establishing

01:18:45.920 Republicans to put up a fight to beat a lefty.

01:18:49.120 Doesn't matter.

01:18:49.480 What about a split ticket?

01:18:50.420 What about a split ticket, like a MAGA person in the vice presidential role and somebody

01:18:54.360 like a Tim Scott in the in the maybe, maybe, maybe, I just thought or Nikki Haley.

01:18:59.400 I don't know.

01:19:00.100 She's she's loyal to the president, although she's kind of you know, I like Nikki Haley,

01:19:03.760 but she's also not as inspirational as you'd want as an politician.

01:19:07.020 So so that's what that's what Ted Cruz tried to do.

01:19:10.360 Right.

01:19:10.560 He tried to bridge.

01:19:11.560 He tried to, you know, kind of straddle that divide of I still got a foot and I still support

01:19:16.320 the president.

01:19:16.860 I got my foot over here.

01:19:17.680 But, you know, I'm still I'm still, you know, one of you Republicans.

01:19:21.480 And he got burned for it.

01:19:22.900 Now, he's I think he's lost his ability to run for president.

01:19:27.380 I think he's toast.

01:19:28.680 So, too.

01:19:29.280 All right.

01:19:29.480 How about here's another one?

01:19:30.420 I've been mentioning him.

01:19:31.240 I know he's not that well known, but how about Daniel Cameron, Kentucky AG?

01:19:36.060 He's the one who refused to push charges.

01:19:38.080 And he's a rising star.

01:19:39.300 I spoke at the GOP convention.

01:19:40.740 I see him as the GOP's Barack Obama.

01:19:42.480 He's this he's this really smart, rising star lawyer, diverse, articulate in a way that makes

01:19:50.380 you want to stand up and scream for your country.

01:19:52.520 You know, like, yes, he's inspirational and doesn't have much of you know how they want

01:19:57.420 to find sometimes Supreme Court nominees who don't have that much of a record that can be

01:20:00.500 used against them.

01:20:01.660 He's kind of like that on the Republican, unlike the presidential side.

01:20:05.260 And so I don't think he's hateable by MAGA or establishment Republicans.

01:20:09.040 I don't disagree.

01:20:09.900 And I heard him on your podcast that was a couple of weeks ago, and he's very good when

01:20:14.580 you know, he's he's he's politically he's a he's a neophyte.

01:20:18.620 I mean, you can say Barack Obama.

01:20:20.200 What did he done?

01:20:21.200 It was a US senator.

01:20:23.340 This guy's going to be he's going to be Kentucky governor.

01:20:25.860 And that's better than a senator in terms of executive authority.

01:20:28.500 I don't disagree with that's where I put my money.

01:20:30.220 I think Kamala Harris is imminently beatable.

01:20:33.000 I really do.

01:20:33.700 And I'll tell you what else is going to help the Republicans in the in the midterms and

01:20:38.980 four years from now.

01:20:40.000 And that is people like AOC and the nutcase lines we're getting now about how everyone's

01:20:45.840 a white supremacist.

01:20:46.900 And what happened at the Capitol was about white supremacy and all the lectures and the

01:20:51.820 critical race theory mandated sessions.

01:20:53.980 And like all the divisive culture wars that the Democrats refuse to abandon, even now that

01:21:01.100 Biden's been elected, we were told he was going to be more moderate.

01:21:04.080 No.

01:21:04.440 One of his first comments was this is about white supremacy.

01:21:07.480 And if these had been BLM protesters, the crackdown would have been much more severe.

01:21:12.860 It's like more severe than what?

01:21:14.140 They shot a woman.

01:21:15.640 Right.

01:21:15.860 I mean, like what what more did you want?

01:21:17.800 The police over the summer sat their arms crossed and watched the riots take place.

01:21:22.820 They got on their knees in some cases and watched the feet of the protesters.

01:21:26.540 So spare me if this had been a different colored skin group, we would have seen a different

01:21:31.960 reaction.

01:21:32.440 Anyway, here's why I ask it.

01:21:33.840 I saw AOC's.

01:21:35.360 It was awful.

01:21:36.280 I mean, like listening to this woman, what she really wants to be is famous.

01:21:39.740 That's what's clear with this woman.

01:21:40.880 What she really wants to be is famous.

01:21:42.000 She sat there, did a little Instagram thing, talking about such a victim, how traumatic

01:21:47.240 everything was.

01:21:48.260 And then she launched into her same old lines.

01:21:50.520 And here's just a sample of her reaction.

01:21:52.400 Listen, a lot of people have.

01:21:58.980 Have drank the poison of white supremacy, and that's what Donald Trump represents.

01:22:08.060 Just is.

01:22:09.060 And if at this point you haven't recognized that and you don't see it, maybe you have

01:22:16.800 a lot of work to do, too.

01:22:19.020 OK, so this is, by the way, part of a feature we call Sound Up, where we digest and dissect

01:22:24.280 a certain sound bite of the week.

01:22:25.680 But not only is it her, Don Lemon made exactly the same point this week.

01:22:30.540 If you voted for him, you support white supremacy.

01:22:32.880 You support the Klan.

01:22:33.640 Then you get Ibram X.

01:22:36.120 Kendi, you know, Mr.

01:22:37.280 How to be an anti-racist with a with an op-ed today going on about how the people saying

01:22:42.760 that what we saw on Wednesday is not America.

01:22:44.820 You're in denial.

01:22:46.160 White terror.

01:22:46.880 This is a quote.

01:22:47.840 White terror is as American as the stars and stripes.

01:22:52.000 That's America, he says.

01:22:53.560 If you can't see it, you're part of the problem.

01:22:55.940 You get things like, as I mentioned, Chris Ruffo, who's been doing a great job of writing

01:22:59.480 about this critical race theory and how it's being shoved down everybody's throats.

01:23:02.020 Third graders now, third graders out in Cupertino, forced to deconstruct their racial and sexual

01:23:07.220 identities, rank themselves according to their power and privilege, acknowledge that they

01:23:12.020 live in a dominant culture of white, middle class, cisgender, educated, able-bodied Christians

01:23:16.640 who created and maintained this culture to hold power and stay.

01:23:19.960 That's what's going to get the next Republican elected, Eric, push back against these insane

01:23:24.720 culture wars.

01:23:26.540 That's logical.

01:23:27.880 Makes common sense.

01:23:29.080 Yes, Megan, I'm going to disagree with you, though.

01:23:32.680 Yes, I agree with everything you said.

01:23:34.380 I think AOC, they're doing the same thing.

01:23:37.360 They're guilting.

01:23:38.480 They're guilting people into.

01:23:40.440 If you voted for Trump, you're a white supremacist.

01:23:43.860 I mean, that is absolute insanity.

01:23:45.120 You support the Klan.

01:23:45.800 How about I'm a conservative, and I'm thrilled that there are three conservative Supreme Court

01:23:50.600 justices.

01:23:51.340 Does that have anything?

01:23:52.180 Does that play?

01:23:52.720 Or no, it's because I'm a white supremacist at D.C.

01:23:56.760 No, it's because the Klan also likes him.

01:23:59.500 Therefore, you like the Klan.

01:24:01.140 That is literally their logic.

01:24:03.320 It's cancel culture.

01:24:04.140 It's guilting people into, it's a false equivalence.

01:24:09.440 I mean, but here's what's happening.

01:24:10.500 Here's the problem.

01:24:11.320 You talked about third graders.

01:24:12.900 The left now has, we know they've had culture.

01:24:16.340 We know they've had Hollywood.

01:24:18.060 They certainly now have sports.

01:24:19.660 We realize that.

01:24:20.740 They have the media under wraps.

01:24:22.800 They have 90% plus are lean left in the media.

01:24:26.100 They have academia.

01:24:27.000 They've been working on that for decades.

01:24:28.480 Now they have media, you yourself weigh in quite often on Twitter about some of the wacky

01:24:33.220 things people are doing to their children in our schools, and now they have politics.

01:24:37.640 Their demographics are leaning towards liberals in politics.

01:24:43.320 Megan, I feel the same feelings you feel.

01:24:47.120 I just don't see the pendulum.

01:24:50.520 It's swinging.

01:24:51.320 It's clearly swinging in their direction in a big way.

01:24:54.120 I just don't think the pendulum swings.

01:24:55.640 I don't know how you get the thing to stop swinging back to the right, because every

01:25:00.240 time it makes sense to do it, oh, no, you must be a racist.

01:25:04.580 You must be a white nationalist.

01:25:05.820 You must have some deep-seated misogynist or a xenophobe to think that way.

01:25:13.040 And they guilt.

01:25:14.120 And of course, the people on the right, we conservatives, we have no guts.

01:25:18.480 We don't have any gumption.

01:25:19.580 We're like, oh, wow, maybe you're right.

01:25:21.360 I'm just not going to vote.

01:25:22.500 I'm just not going to say that on TV.

01:25:24.140 Just one example of that.

01:25:25.640 When I was speaking at one point about the complete elimination for due process of young

01:25:31.460 men on college campuses, I got so much feedback from these left-wing feminists saying, that's

01:25:36.040 your internalized misogyny talking.

01:25:39.560 Actually, it's my internalized lawyer talking.

01:25:42.360 I'm a constitutionalist.

01:25:43.860 That's what I'm talking.

01:25:44.600 That's who's talking.

01:25:45.680 But wait, so what's the best thing now for the Republican Party, for Trump to be quiet

01:25:50.740 and go away or continue being as bellicose as he's always been, but endorse somebody who

01:25:56.640 could win, you know, both in the midterms and beyond?

01:25:59.940 Well, let's talk about what's best for the party.

01:26:01.880 Let's talk about what's best for Trump right now.

01:26:03.740 If I were advising him and I've called, I've tried to get through and they're not taking

01:26:07.720 my call right now, I would have said, stand down, just stay away.

01:26:12.080 And by the way, this is the hardest thing.

01:26:13.780 Trump can't do this.

01:26:14.880 He's just not, he doesn't have the makeup to do this.

01:26:17.000 But I would have said, and if I do talk to him, take a year off, Don, go golf for a

01:26:21.820 year.

01:26:21.980 But stay out of the media, stay out of the political fray.

01:26:27.300 Let this heal.

01:26:28.540 Let this go away.

01:26:29.680 It will.

01:26:30.560 I mean, as you know, Megan, when we were, I mean, there's negative stories that would

01:26:36.780 pop up and you just lay down.

01:26:38.460 You lay low for a while.

01:26:39.460 You get out, go take a week off.

01:26:41.460 And healing happens and people forget and you come back because he can still be a huge

01:26:46.580 voice.

01:26:47.200 He can still be a huge voice in politics, on media, et cetera.

01:26:49.880 But, but right now the left is anything he does left is going to destroy him.

01:26:54.680 And any one of his followers, any people who, who, who follow him or who move, I don't

01:26:59.780 know, go on any of his shows, take a year off.

01:27:03.160 Let this, let this passage, this too shall pass for him and he can come back strong.

01:27:07.420 I don't think he's got it in him to do that.

01:27:09.120 I think he, he loves the spotlight.

01:27:11.440 He loves the attention and he'll figure out a way.

01:27:13.920 And it's, it's one of those quirky things where sometimes people will accept the

01:27:19.680 attention, even when it's negative attention and kind of, you know, we're lacking the

01:27:23.640 other kind of attention, they'll accept the negative attention.

01:27:26.020 Boy, he's going to get a lot of negative attention if he, if he decides to keep popping

01:27:30.200 up.

01:27:31.020 Yeah.

01:27:31.120 He's never been able to stop running his mouth ever.

01:27:33.620 I mean, that's just been his lifelong go-to.

01:27:36.680 But I think that one of the biggest problems for him politically and what happened at the

01:27:40.460 Capitol is it's not the loss of the more moderate Republicans or any Republicans.

01:27:46.380 That's not, that's not it.

01:27:48.720 It's he gave the people who already loathed him a great argument for mainstream businesses

01:27:58.320 and others to not associate with him.

01:28:02.320 That's why the PGA pulled its relationship.

01:28:04.460 That's why all these major banks are saying, we're not going to do business with him anymore.

01:28:08.680 That's why there is now some credibility to the threat that if you hire somebody who was

01:28:14.760 in his inner, inner circle, uh, you're going to get a shit storm rain down on you.

01:28:19.320 Like you've never seen PR wise, you know, that sort of those lists, the Lincoln project

01:28:23.740 was making, which are awful and absurd, just got a lot more real because now he's given

01:28:29.840 them the excuse.

01:28:30.780 It's not just, Oh, we had policies that we think were bad and, you know, we think he's

01:28:34.880 bad and how could you support him?

01:28:36.240 It's, it's going to be the man incited a riot that led to the death of five people.

01:28:43.700 He incited a questioning of the fundamental principles of democracy, right?

01:28:48.300 So that's going to be tough for him to get out of.

01:28:51.120 And I think his business to him in some ways may be more important than even his political

01:28:55.740 role.

01:28:56.940 Yeah.

01:28:57.060 I think that that's, that's precarious for him because a lot of his stuff is branded.

01:29:00.440 It's not necessarily his ownership.

01:29:01.800 It's a, it's a branding issue and I'm not sure what their deals are, how long they are.

01:29:05.580 And I guess they will be at risk going forward.

01:29:08.480 It's a hundred percent right.

01:29:09.640 Megan is it.

01:29:10.660 He gave, or his supporters gave or supports the people who stormed the Capitol.

01:29:15.040 I don't know who that, whatever his, his crazy fringe, right.

01:29:19.160 Gave the left the excuse to say, Hey, we told you, we told you so.

01:29:23.980 And that's pretty powerful, right?

01:29:25.180 We told you so powerful, but also what's even more powerful added to, to the, to that we told

01:29:30.660 you so is, um, the hypocrisy because the right was supposed to be the party of law and order.

01:29:37.400 All the, all the finger pointing that we did over the summer at Antifa and whoever Black

01:29:42.200 Lives Matter, whoever were ripping up main street USA, we said, Oh no, no, we're the party

01:29:46.920 of law and order.

01:29:47.520 And then what did they turn around and do?

01:29:49.600 Not only did they hand them the excuse we were, we, that you were right about us, we're

01:29:53.480 doing it and we're complete hypocrites because we're breaking the law.

01:29:56.280 People are dying at, because of what we did.

01:30:00.560 It's just, it's a very potent, potent tool.

01:30:03.460 It's right.

01:30:04.100 It's an argument on there, but I don't think that argument holds any water.

01:30:07.560 I mean, I realized with the left, they're going to believe what they want to believe

01:30:09.980 about, you know, the right, but I just don't think that that's a valid criticism in any way

01:30:14.640 because the, the right sort of the, the Republicans condemned both events.

01:30:19.580 They condemned the Black Lives Matter riots over the summer and they condemned this riot

01:30:25.240 and, and in no way supported what we saw go down to the Capitol.

01:30:29.180 Meanwhile, when the, when BLM was rioting, you saw virtually every media personality go

01:30:34.240 out there on the mainstream and defend them and said, you know, remember Chris Cuomo, like

01:30:38.260 whoever said you had to be polite in the, you know, sort of protesting or rioting or whatever,

01:30:42.340 however he put it, but he was defending along with so many others on the left in the media.

01:30:46.020 Now I realize I will grant that storming the Capitol while it's trying to perform a democratic

01:30:52.420 function, such as, you know, confirm the votes of a presidency is in a league of its own when

01:30:58.480 it comes to what you choose to storm, right?

01:31:01.020 Like where you choose to unleash violence, but unleashing violence is bad no matter, no

01:31:05.780 matter where it is.

01:31:06.400 And it seems to me there's only one group of, of politicians or sort of one party that's

01:31:12.260 been pretty much uniform in condemning it.

01:31:15.320 Right.

01:31:16.020 Agree.

01:31:16.680 A hundred percent agree.

01:31:17.520 Except that that, that same party, it's the one who showed up on the Capitol steps on

01:31:22.860 January 6th.

01:31:24.120 Look, you remember back in the, back in the day when, when the left was saying, oh, these

01:31:27.780 these tea party protests, these tea party, they're so violent, they're so violent.

01:31:31.080 And then you leave one of their protests and they'd be cleaning up the mess afterwards.

01:31:34.040 And it's like, well, there's no violence there.

01:31:35.760 They were just painting it.

01:31:36.880 They were trying to paint them with a violent picture.

01:31:38.740 Problem with this, with January 6th is it was the tea party only that they became violent.

01:31:42.560 Right.

01:31:43.240 And, and that changed the narrative.

01:31:44.880 It changed the narrative.

01:31:46.160 It's, it became indefensible because people, because they broke windows, they broke in

01:31:50.340 and then God forbid, and God rest their souls, people died too.

01:31:54.040 So I don't think that these people, the MAGA crew can be, can claim right now, unless they

01:32:00.080 somehow disown that group and figure out who they were and, and figure out where this, all

01:32:04.480 this planning came from and who organized those.

01:32:06.580 And then completely disowned that group and said, we're not part of them.

01:32:09.800 They infiltrated what we were a peaceful protest, almost like what Antifa was doing on Black Lives

01:32:14.780 Matter over, over the summer.

01:32:16.040 I think that could be a similar, similar take on the right, but you got it.

01:32:20.220 You can't just say, Oh, you know, we didn't do it or it wasn't supposed to happen this way.

01:32:25.380 It's, they got, they, they, they need to be held accountable.

01:32:27.720 Those people who are on.

01:32:28.840 That's interesting.

01:32:29.640 So in other words, it's, it's not, it's not enough to have Liz Cheney stand up or Mitch

01:32:32.880 McConnell stand up and say, this is wrong.

01:32:34.360 Or even Trump in his belated video, you got to have like the, the MAGA protesters, there's

01:32:40.720 got to be some group out of the MAGA core to come up and take the mantle on this and,

01:32:45.560 and forcefully condemn it.

01:32:46.820 And, and also, and also to prevent future violence, Eric, cause I don't know about you,

01:32:51.180 but I'm worried about the next week.

01:32:52.960 I'm not worried about it.

01:32:53.980 I don't think, I think this was a faction that, that was, that wasn't part of the, it

01:32:57.420 wasn't real MAGA, but, but, but in order to be credible going forward to be this MAGA

01:33:01.100 group, which has millions, tens of millions of people supporting the president and the,

01:33:05.720 and the cause, but to be, to be, to be credible, to have any sort of, you know, credibility left

01:33:12.600 at all, you have to weed out the cancer, cut out the cancer.

01:33:16.540 Who are those people that did that?

01:33:18.040 And by the way, don't ever do it again.

01:33:20.340 We don't want to be paying the price for your stupidity and your violence.

01:33:24.580 It's so hard though.

01:33:25.480 Those are the people who are truly brainwashed.

01:33:27.640 You know, there are people who love Trump, who they'll vote for Trump.

01:33:30.660 They don't care about any, anything really.

01:33:32.600 They just, they just see him as their warrior.

01:33:34.740 But then there are people who are brainwashed by Trump.

01:33:37.640 There really is sort of a cult.

01:33:40.300 I don't speak of MAGA in general, but I just mean within that faction, there is a cult like

01:33:45.020 group that like, like who's who have openly said, I would die for him.

01:33:49.020 Now that's not normal.

01:33:50.720 It's not healthy.

01:33:51.780 And those are the people who can be easily manipulated with very little, you know, explicit

01:33:57.900 direction.

01:33:58.960 It doesn't require explicit direction.

01:34:01.160 And I don't know how they get deprogrammed because I think that group sadly is sizable.

01:34:05.320 Therein lies the question, which part of the group is, is, is far right fringe.

01:34:08.420 And what you described were the people who hear the dog whistle.

01:34:11.260 They're the people who the vast majority of that crowd probably didn't hear, let's go

01:34:15.840 storm.

01:34:16.700 Let's go break in.

01:34:17.880 They may have gotten caught up in it and they, they did it, but there probably was the group

01:34:22.780 that, that heard the whistle.

01:34:23.860 They were hoping it was going to come.

01:34:25.760 They heard, they prepared for it.

01:34:27.000 They brought zip ties and, and, and whatever the hell, hell else they brought and waited

01:34:32.180 for the call.

01:34:32.780 And somehow they heard that.

01:34:35.780 How big is it?

01:34:36.920 Of the, I think it's a small group.

01:34:38.880 I think it's, I think it's a small, violent, radical, like all groups have faction within

01:34:45.260 the MAGA.

01:34:46.100 For the most, Megan, I've been hanging around these people for four years.

01:34:49.180 They're pretty much just people, middle, middle American people who just feel like they've

01:34:53.440 been ignored for, for, for 20, 30 years.

01:34:56.560 And, and they're not violent and they're, they're just happy that, that someone is, is

01:35:00.900 saying what they feel.

01:35:03.080 They're not looking to break windows and drag people out.

01:35:06.220 That's right.

01:35:07.580 But, but, but in order to be credible, in order to, to be, to, to move forward and move

01:35:12.000 beyond it.

01:35:12.860 If MAGA wants to be a thing, that's not just some sort of fringe group.

01:35:16.420 That's, you know, never going to have their own television network.

01:35:19.300 They're going to have to be subscription based and, you know, off, off of any sort of area

01:35:24.420 where ad ads matter.

01:35:25.980 They got to, they got to weed out the badge.

01:35:28.120 They got to weed out the people who are violent.

01:35:30.120 Here's my last question.

01:35:31.660 What is something to feel good about right now?

01:35:36.020 Well, I, I, I don't know.

01:35:42.520 I honestly, I'll be, I'm being a hundred percent honest with you.

01:35:45.660 I have a new puppy.

01:35:46.780 I feel good about my new puppy.

01:35:48.580 I don't, I don't, I don't, I have a new podcast bowling with far and in an odd, in a really

01:35:54.780 odd way.

01:35:55.220 And this is not a, it's not even out yet, but it's, it's an odd thing.

01:35:58.600 Like how in the heck I'm so happy to be able to talk about culture and sports and business

01:36:04.500 and not what did Donald Trump tweet today?

01:36:06.820 And why did he tweet that?

01:36:08.120 It's just going to be a little different.

01:36:10.020 Megan.

01:36:10.160 And I don't know, I, I, I don't, the stock market isn't crashing.

01:36:14.380 Like everyone predicted with a Biden and a, and a Democrat win in Georgia.

01:36:18.640 I mean, we can be happy about that, I guess.

01:36:21.660 Well, I like what you said in the middle there because a new puppy is good.

01:36:25.260 B so is new podcast and love Brett Favre.

01:36:27.840 So it's the two of you together.

01:36:30.240 Yeah.

01:36:30.800 Yeah.

01:36:31.080 It's a, and we're going to talk, like I said, everything from, from sports to what, what,

01:36:36.020 you know, what, what the heck is army hammer thinking nobody wants to be a cannibal and

01:36:39.440 everything.

01:36:40.460 That was bizarre.

01:36:41.900 I don't understand that whole, okay.

01:36:43.440 But I want to say the other thing is look, love Trump or hate Trump.

01:36:47.000 He's taken up way too much of our head space.

01:36:50.540 And I used to say, you know, in the beginning of his presidency, this is exactly what he's always

01:36:54.380 wanted, which is just to be talked about by everyone in the world nonstop.

01:36:57.460 And one of the, one of the reasons I wanted to get away from Fox was I just, I just wasn't

01:37:02.120 in the mood to do it.

01:37:03.100 I just wasn't in the mood to do it.

01:37:06.800 And I've gotten back to doing it because I'm back in covering the news and he's always the

01:37:11.080 news.

01:37:11.660 And I do think it'll be good for us as humans, as a country, as a globe to move on from the

01:37:18.400 constant obsession over Donald Trump.

01:37:22.780 Well, let's just hope we don't obsess about the next guy.

01:37:25.780 No onto cannibalism.

01:37:27.100 It's so much healthier, it's better.

01:37:33.760 I want to thank Eric Bolling and Dan Abrams for being with us here today.

01:37:37.580 Hopefully you've heard a lot of differing viewpoints, right?

01:37:40.760 The goal is to get us all to think, challenge our own belief system, see if the other side

01:37:46.640 has better arguments and emerge ideally a better person.

01:37:51.560 That's the goal, right?

01:37:52.500 I don't know.

01:37:53.060 Some days we nail it, some days not.

01:37:54.820 The most of you, we nail it.

01:37:55.740 But I hope you enjoyed the discussion.

01:37:58.600 And listen, today's episode was brought to you in part by Home Title Lock.

01:38:01.780 Put a barrier around your home to protect yourself from home title theft.

01:38:06.040 Go to HomeTitleLock.com now to learn more.

01:38:09.260 HomeTitleLock.com.

01:38:10.700 And don't miss the show on Monday because we are going to have a day off show, so very

01:38:16.160 timely, with two people I've really been wanting to speak to about all the madness going on

01:38:20.480 right now and that you heard me mention one of them on today's program.

01:38:23.220 Representative Steve Scalise will be here.

01:38:25.180 Don't you just want to hear his take on what happened?

01:38:27.160 This is a guy who got shot while trying to play baseball on Capitol Hill with other representatives

01:38:31.840 because of a man who was crazy, who had believed crazy rhetoric and had gotten himself into

01:38:40.640 this dark, dark place.

01:38:42.800 He was a Bernie Sanders fan.

01:38:44.180 Some people tried to blame it on Bernie Sanders, which was unfair.

01:38:48.580 I don't know.

01:38:49.380 I'm wondering what he's thinking right now as he watches everything.

01:38:52.280 And we'll also be joined by Dennis Prager.

01:38:53.880 Dennis is just, he's sort of, he's like the godfather of political commentary.

01:38:57.900 He's just, he's got a really 30,000 foot way of taking you through these events because

01:39:04.060 he's got a great life perspective.

01:39:05.280 So like you, I hope I'm genuinely interested in talking to him and hearing his perspective.

01:39:08.760 We'll do it together.

01:39:09.720 We'll hear it together on Monday.

01:39:11.840 In the meantime, have a great weekend.

01:39:14.520 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:39:16.720 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:39:21.200 The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.

01:39:27.900 Your business doesn't move in a straight line.

01:39:42.760 Some days bring growth, others bring challenges.

01:39:45.800 But what if you or a partner needs to step away?

01:39:48.780 When the unexpected happens, count on Canada Life's flexible life and health insurance

01:39:53.620 to help your business keep working, even when you can't.

01:39:56.620 Don't let life's challenges stand in the way of your success.

01:40:00.400 Protect what you've built today.

01:40:02.440 Visit canadalife.com slash business protection to learn more.

01:40:06.580 Canada Life.

01:40:07.660 Insurance.

01:40:08.620 Investments.

01:40:09.440 Advice.

The Megyn Kelly Show - January 15, 2021

Impeachment, The Sequel, with Eric Bolling and Dan Abrams ｜ Ep. 51

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript