The Megyn Kelly Show - Inspirational Interviews From 2022, Featuring Tim Scott, Dakota Meyer, Rob O'Neill, and More

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00:00:30.680 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.540 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:41.980 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.080 I hope you and your family had a very, very Merry Christmas.

00:00:49.180 Today we are bringing you a look at some of the conversations

00:00:51.800 that we've had this year that have left you and me

00:00:55.240 and many others, I hope, inspired, right?

00:00:58.260 Need a little inspo going into the new year.

00:01:01.180 It was hard to narrow it down to just six interviews,

00:01:03.720 but today you have a range of discussions featuring politicians,

00:01:07.640 veterans, authors, even a priest.

00:01:10.580 We begin the show with my conversation with Senator Tim Scott.

00:01:15.620 This is a great one.

00:01:16.900 From episode 370, we discussed Tim's mom and grandfather

00:01:21.760 and a conversation he had with Donald Trump about race

00:01:24.760 that showed a very different side of the former president.

00:01:29.340 Let's talk first about your mom and the special surprise

00:01:31.740 you and Donald Trump arranged for her.

00:01:33.400 Well, Megyn, I was talking to the president one day

00:01:35.400 and he said, anything I can ever do, you know President Trump.

00:01:38.440 President Trump's always saying, you know,

00:01:39.840 whatever in the world you ever want, please give me a call.

00:01:43.120 I'll be happy to help.

00:01:43.840 And I know he means well, but I don't always ask for anything.

00:01:48.460 Usually I don't.

00:01:49.120 And this time I decided to say, you know what, President,

00:01:51.640 I want my mother to have a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

00:01:55.460 Air Force One would be a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

00:01:58.840 I said that I never followed up on it.

00:02:01.040 It's probably more than a year later.

00:02:02.460 I can't remember exactly how long it was.

00:02:04.880 I get a call.

00:02:06.120 President Trump is inviting my mom on Air Force One.

00:02:08.580 And I will tell you what, I have the pictures to prove it.

00:02:12.540 That was one amazing experience with a, thank you, a thrilling experience.

00:02:19.740 My mother was so ecstatic about the experience.

00:02:24.180 And President Trump's pulling his chair out for her.

00:02:27.100 And once again, there are no cameras except for the ones taking the pictures.

00:02:31.000 There's no TV show to watch.

00:02:32.780 This was literally a private exchange with the president of the United States

00:02:36.920 on Air Force One with someone who's been demonized

00:02:40.320 from the day before he took the office, the day before he took the oath.

00:02:45.280 There were already headlines about impeaching President Trump.

00:02:48.140 And yet we don't see the humanity of the individual.

00:02:51.320 And I have been critical of the president when necessary.

00:02:54.400 And so I'm not coming with a lady justice blinders on my eyes.

00:03:00.280 I actually see just fine.

00:03:02.180 And the truth is that I am thankful to live in a country where there is a blindfold on justice.

00:03:08.340 I just want us not to peek around the blindfold when it comes to people we don't like

00:03:13.380 or experiences we don't understand.

00:03:15.680 In the book, you write about how not only did he give her an insist that she sit in his seat

00:03:20.520 on Air Force One, which he was reluctant to do, but he made her.

00:03:23.920 But he sat with her for the whole flight.

00:03:25.520 I mean, that's really the thing that got me and chatted her up.

00:03:28.280 You said they were laughing so hard.

00:03:29.580 It was hilarious to look back and peek in on a lot of people in his position,

00:03:33.600 even before he was president, even when he was just a big celebrity,

00:03:36.320 would have said, oh, nice to meet you.

00:03:38.660 Glad, Henning.

00:03:39.220 And then moved on and wouldn't want to spend an entire air flight, you know,

00:03:43.420 talking to a stranger who's in her 70s.

00:03:46.580 That I mean, that's just the reality.

00:03:48.240 But he did.

00:03:49.300 He's in his 70s, too.

00:03:50.700 You know, he did and really seemed to want her to have a great time.

00:03:54.700 I mean, I do think that speaks well of him.

00:03:57.020 You acknowledge the abrasive language.

00:03:58.640 We all know President Trump is not perfect.

00:04:00.860 Yes.

00:04:01.820 But to those who think the man's not even human, he's just this monster who's looking,

00:04:06.820 who's like drunk on power, wanting to hurt people.

00:04:09.240 It isn't true.

00:04:10.400 There's another side to him.

00:04:11.960 He's human just like the rest of us.

00:04:13.660 Totally agree.

00:04:14.120 And the fact of the matter is when you think about his response in almost every situation

00:04:18.120 where he and I disagreed, he gave me deference.

00:04:20.800 He gave me enough margin to make my case.

00:04:23.180 And he didn't agree with me all the time, frankly.

00:04:25.200 But he always said, is there an alternative?

00:04:28.000 He gave me the pivot, the opportunity to pivot.

00:04:30.260 And that's such an important quality in the leader of the free world to say to someone

00:04:35.500 that he doesn't have to.

00:04:36.840 I hear you.

00:04:37.860 I see you.

00:04:38.620 Now, show me a better way for the nation, not for those who supported me, because as

00:04:44.420 we talk about opportunities zones in a few minutes, the one thing you'll hear is that

00:04:48.100 the voters that he was helping, the constituents that he helped in that decision were the ones

00:04:53.060 that he offended.

00:04:53.700 So he wasn't looking for a way to get them back on the team.

00:04:56.960 That may never happen.

00:04:58.160 But he literally went out of his way to hear the painful story and the provocative history

00:05:04.480 of race in this country, and at the same time, respond by saying, let's do something that

00:05:10.420 brings opportunities into the most fragile economic communities in this nation.

00:05:15.700 It was a stunning experience.

00:05:17.420 It's a great story because you write in the book about how you were not happy with the

00:05:20.800 president's comments, you know, in total in after Charlottesville.

00:05:25.840 And he had said, you know, the good people on both sides.

00:05:30.100 And he had said that he condemned the white supremacists.

00:05:32.240 But a lot of people, especially people in communities of color, were like too close,

00:05:36.900 didn't like it, offended.

00:05:38.500 The messaging should have been really clear and they didn't think it was.

00:05:42.700 So you made a comment about that publicly and he called you up and said, let's have a

00:05:47.580 meeting.

00:05:47.980 And you write in the book about how you're like, oh, boy, you know, I feel how I feel,

00:05:53.000 but I know what it's like, what's going to come my way.

00:05:55.680 I'm in his crosshairs now and he doesn't really lose fights.

00:06:00.140 And so this could be highly unpleasant.

00:06:02.380 So you go, you sit down in the Oval Office with him and something remarkable happened

00:06:07.940 for 20 minutes.

00:06:10.240 What did he do?

00:06:11.500 Listen, literally listened.

00:06:13.640 I was stunned.

00:06:14.360 I was looking forward to the lecture and hopefully only a 40 percent drop in my approval ratings

00:06:19.860 at home.

00:06:20.420 But that's not what happened.

00:06:21.980 He he actually did what people say he never does.

00:06:25.020 And frankly, I've seen him do it almost every time I've been with him.

00:06:28.600 He actually, Megan, he listened and he didn't just listen, waiting for his turn to talk.

00:06:35.380 He listened to the pain and the misery that so many African-Americans have had to endure

00:06:43.520 over generations, over a century.

00:06:47.960 And as I talked through my grandfather's life and all the pain and the misery and the misdeeds

00:06:55.120 that came his way, President Trump was silent.

00:06:58.460 And when we finished, he did not embrace necessarily my entire view of race or equality, but he didn't

00:07:05.520 reject it either.

00:07:06.780 He simply said, help me help those I've offended.

00:07:12.540 Now, that's amazing.

00:07:13.420 For the president of the United States, who catches more Hades than the law allows, to

00:07:21.840 say and said, let me tell you what we're going to do.

00:07:25.800 Instead of doing that, he simply said, show me the way.

00:07:30.260 And I offered him something that he understood, which was let's create by redeveloping poor

00:07:36.280 communities.

00:07:36.780 And he said, I'm a developer.

00:07:39.080 I understand incentives.

00:07:40.520 And literally, we were off to the races.

00:07:43.720 And without his support, we would not have seen in 2019, $29 billion from the private sector

00:07:51.940 invested into the poorest communities across America that led to the lowest level of poverty

00:07:58.660 ever recorded in America and only a 4% gentrification rate in those communities.

00:08:05.400 It's a stunning success story that he gets so little credit for, especially when it comes

00:08:11.280 to the important topic of race and fairness in America.

00:08:14.200 Well, he and you, because you've been trying to sell that for a long, long time.

00:08:18.740 And you had no takers in the Oval Office prior to President Trump, who it was sort of

00:08:24.500 divine right order, right?

00:08:26.260 Because it's like you point out, suddenly, without even realizing it, you were talking

00:08:29.880 his language.

00:08:31.140 Development.

00:08:31.700 This is his business, right?

00:08:33.180 So he was like, yes, I get it.

00:08:34.480 Let's do tax incentives for these big corporations to want to build in these opportunity zones,

00:08:40.540 which tend to be largely minority, these inner city pockets that have dealt with more blight

00:08:45.020 than they have opportunity.

00:08:46.680 And that's what happened.

00:08:48.120 He made it happen.

00:08:49.120 It was stunning.

00:08:49.680 And frankly, when I think about even in my little state of South Carolina, the greatest

00:08:53.000 state in all of the nation, the one thing I can tell you without any question is you

00:08:56.560 go to a rural part of South Carolina called Hampton County.

00:08:59.880 They haven't seen 100 jobs created probably in the last five years because of opportunity

00:09:04.680 zones.

00:09:05.480 There's this new thing called an agricultural tech center being developed in rural South

00:09:10.720 Carolina.

00:09:11.720 $300 million investment, 1,500 new jobs, permanent jobs, plus construction jobs, all because President

00:09:21.140 Trump and I got together in the Oval Office after an obstacle and we turned that obstacle

00:09:26.240 into opportunities.

00:09:27.740 And that's why I'm so, so convinced that America's greatest days are ahead of her.

00:09:32.520 When two people who disagree on something can do it without being disagreeable, we can

00:09:37.760 see the most remarkable things happen in the greatest country on earth.

00:09:41.640 And when you read America, a redemption story, you'll hear more of those stories where the success

00:09:46.880 of this nation came right after a failure, where the obstacles that we have all had to

00:09:52.260 endure as a country presented the best opportunities and the pain of our past has become the promise

00:09:58.060 of our amazing future.

00:10:00.000 Mm-hmm.

00:10:00.780 I think it's so insightful because I do think that, you know, to see them go after Trump again,

00:10:07.580 it's like he's already had to deal with the ruination attempted of his first term.

00:10:13.000 Yes.

00:10:13.320 You know, with the Russiagate, which did not hold up, put it mildly.

00:10:17.220 Zero.

00:10:17.940 Right?

00:10:18.320 Two impeachments, the criminal prosecutions, the going after his family, his close advisors.

00:10:23.880 You know, half of his administration has now been publicly embarrassed by Merrick Garland's

00:10:28.400 DOJ and cuffs and, you know, prosecuting people for contempt of Congress when they never did

00:10:32.960 that under Democratic organizations or representation.

00:10:36.520 In any event, I think people have had it.

00:10:39.180 Like, this is a bridge too far, what they're doing to him.

00:10:41.260 He's rough around the edges.

00:10:44.340 I, of all people, know that.

00:10:45.840 And he can do the mean tweets and all that.

00:10:48.100 But there's a bigger story about President Trump, and it's exactly that Opportunity Zone

00:10:53.940 story.

00:10:54.640 It's what he did, what he made up for in sort of finesse, I guess, for lack of a better

00:11:00.060 word, what he lacked in finesse he made up for in policy that actually changed lives.

00:11:06.640 I could tell you the same story about women, you know, in the Anti-Sex Trafficking Act, which

00:11:10.440 they could not get through with any other president.

00:11:13.400 But then Donald J.

00:11:14.260 Trump, despite his some of his language about women and some of the accusations that have

00:11:17.620 been made against him, he's the one who got it through.

00:11:19.860 Right.

00:11:20.020 So it's like these Democrats have been told a story that is agenda driven by the MSNBCs

00:11:26.540 of the world.

00:11:27.360 And the consequences of that are in the news every day.

00:11:30.980 This is just the latest example.

00:11:32.480 Well, Megan, you said it right.

00:11:33.400 And one of the most important things that you've said is how exhausted Americans are with all

00:11:39.160 the division, with all the sniping back and forth.

00:11:42.420 It's one thing to target someone, but to target them for every single day of their administration

00:11:49.000 and every single day after they've left, it's exhausting to watch.

00:11:53.500 Whether you're a Republican or Democrat, whether you are conservative or progressive, the one

00:11:57.780 thing we should all want is a consistent standard of justice applied to all Americans.

00:12:02.700 And the one thing that we're seeing today is the contrast between justice for those we

00:12:07.100 like and justice for those we don't like.

00:12:09.540 And frankly, we know that if there are two standards, there's only injustice.

00:12:13.040 There is no justice.

00:12:14.200 And one of the things I struggle with through the book was the injustices that I felt that

00:12:19.060 I was a victim of.

00:12:19.860 And my grandfather walking to me one day and said, you're never a victim.

00:12:24.620 You may have been victimized in your life, but you have to choose today.

00:12:29.000 Are you a victim or are you going to be victorious?

00:12:32.280 There's only one road ahead.

00:12:34.620 If you're going to be a victim, you will always be a victim.

00:12:37.300 And if you're going to be victorious, you will have to overcome the challenges that

00:12:41.760 present themselves in your face.

00:12:43.560 And I'm thinking to myself, my grandfather born in 1921 in Sally, South Carolina, in

00:12:49.300 the deep South, stepping off of a sidewalk if a white person was coming.

00:12:54.240 This is the guy that's telling me not to be bitter and to never be a victim.

00:12:58.400 The man that was forced to stop his education in the third grade who never learned to read

00:13:03.440 is telling me, don't let what people call you decide what you answer to.

00:13:09.100 This is a man whose wisdom was beyond my years and his years combined.

00:13:14.420 But it was a man who had so much faith in America that somehow, some way his children

00:13:21.440 and his grandchildren would experience a very different America.

00:13:25.120 And I am so thankful that I am.

00:13:27.200 I'm experiencing in many ways the best of what America is.

00:13:30.940 And as you look at my grandfather, you look at my mother, you just know that the scars

00:13:34.840 that they bear, I am now able to use that scar tissue to make it easier for the next generation.

00:13:42.920 It shouldn't be about those of us in elected office.

00:13:45.800 It shouldn't be about a swamp in Washington.

00:13:48.020 It shouldn't be about the capitals in the nation, the capitals around the country.

00:13:52.200 It should be about the people.

00:13:54.760 The people are our greatest blessing, not those who are in government.

00:14:01.020 The whole book has the same tone in that you could easily look back at your grandfather's

00:14:07.520 life, your dad's experience, your mom's experience and say, this is a racist country.

00:14:13.000 And there is no redemption.

00:14:15.220 And instead, you see it very differently.

00:14:17.400 You see it as, yes, there's racism.

00:14:19.020 There always there always has been.

00:14:20.440 But we are making steady progress.

00:14:22.740 We appeal to our better angels.

00:14:25.040 We've been going in the direction of the angels steadily for the past hundred years plus.

00:14:29.940 And my grandfather's story and my family story is evidence of that.

00:14:33.640 One of the stories that stood out to me is, you know, you point out that the guy who held

00:14:38.520 your Senate seat for I don't know how many years, a couple of generations ago.

00:14:44.380 Yes.

00:14:45.020 Cottonhead.

00:14:45.580 Yes.

00:14:45.860 Can you tell us to make that point?

00:14:47.880 Because I was like, my God, that's very illuminating.

00:14:50.580 So, man, Cottonhead, I believe it was what we called him, had my seat, gosh, two generations

00:14:57.680 ago.

00:14:58.280 And he was an avowed racist who literally was undeniably wanting blacks out of the country

00:15:06.040 and certainly out of any leadership positions.

00:15:08.320 And one of the stories I tell there is that I now have that man's seat because it was never

00:15:13.900 his seat.

00:15:14.620 Like, it's not my seat.

00:15:16.020 The seat always belongs to the American people or in South Carolina to the Gamecock fans and

00:15:23.160 I guess the Tiger fans as well.

00:15:24.380 But the truth is that in America, political seats continues to evolve because the nation

00:15:32.300 and the voters continue to evolve.

00:15:33.980 And one of the things I write about, Megan, is the fact that you think about 2010 in this

00:15:39.460 country, the Tea Party movement, and I get into a very crowded race with the son of Strom

00:15:45.580 Thurmond in Charleston, South Carolina, where the Civil War started.

00:15:49.680 And I end up winning a very competitive race against his son in a runoff because the evolution

00:15:56.040 of the Southern heart had come to the point where the vast majority of voters were willing

00:16:00.840 to judge me on the content of my character and not the color of my skin, even though I

00:16:05.900 was running against one of the greatest namesakes in South Carolina history, a Thurmond.

00:16:10.660 So if that doesn't speak to the progress that this nation is making, I don't know what does.

00:16:14.960 The fact that we've had an African-American president, we've had an African-American vice

00:16:19.800 president, we've had an African-American head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, we have an African-American

00:16:24.840 who's the head of all the military today, we have had an African-American running American

00:16:29.040 Express.

00:16:30.180 Supreme Court justices.

00:16:31.400 Supreme Court justices.

00:16:32.240 I mean, when you take a look at the progress made and you don't look at both sides of the

00:16:38.260 ledger, how do you come to the conclusion that America is a racist country?

00:16:42.780 We may struggle with the issue of race, but the truth is that I said it and Kamala Harris

00:16:48.620 has said it, Joe Biden has said it as well, that America is not a racist country.

00:16:52.520 Now, here's what I'm going to challenge all leaders to do.

00:16:54.260 Let's act like it.

00:16:55.480 Let's not sell to people this division that is easy to conquer so that you win an elected

00:17:00.960 office.

00:17:01.560 If you have to win through anger and win through division, you might win, but the country loses.

00:17:07.680 And ultimately, if the country loses, the world loses.

00:17:10.460 I'm not willing to let America think that we're divided when we are the greatest force

00:17:16.660 on earth for good.

00:17:18.200 Nothing close.

00:17:19.300 No second place.

00:17:20.540 We are the city on the hill.

00:17:22.220 We are the beacon in the midst of the storm.

00:17:24.940 I got to chill.

00:17:26.020 I love this.

00:17:26.840 Wait, I want to tell one story before I squeeze in a quick break.

00:17:29.300 Yes, ma'am.

00:17:30.360 Can you, like just speaking of the progress that we've made as a country and also the lack

00:17:35.700 of bitterness, the story of your grandfather who couldn't read.

00:17:40.260 You point out in the book, he was born in 2020, 1921.

00:17:44.020 Yes, ma'am.

00:17:44.580 And two years earlier than that, a black man had been had been beaten to death for not stepping

00:17:49.840 off the sidewalk as a group of white men came by.

00:17:52.580 So that's the time your grandfather was born into in South Carolina.

00:17:56.400 And then you take us forward to 2008 and a man named Barack Obama, who happened to be

00:18:03.760 black, was running for president.

00:18:05.820 And your grandfather, who still couldn't read, went to vote.

00:18:11.620 Can you tell us that story?

00:18:12.800 Yeah.

00:18:13.340 I still get a little emotional about it, to be honest with you.

00:18:16.340 I was just thinking about this last night.

00:18:17.720 So my grandfather, 2008, he's, you know, can't believe the progress that's been made in America.

00:18:26.060 You got to think about it.

00:18:27.020 He's 86, 87 years old, and I'm taking him to vote.

00:18:32.660 And for the first time, there's a choice in the ballot where there's an African-American

00:18:37.260 person running for president.

00:18:40.460 And my grandfather cannot believe it.

00:18:43.380 And so we walk into the polling place and the lady at the counter, knowing that I'm

00:18:47.180 a Republican, seeing my grandfather is, looks like me a little bit, and is not going to

00:18:53.000 be voting for a Republican.

00:18:54.040 So she thinks, even though he did vote for me, thank God for that part.

00:18:57.220 But so we're going into the voting booth, much to her chagrin.

00:19:00.760 And literally, she's trying to tell my grandfather, we can get someone to assist you and not this

00:19:05.360 Republican.

00:19:06.440 And with great respect, he's like, read the hand, read the hand.

00:19:11.720 And so we go in there, and I tell my grandfather, I said, Grandaddy, look at that name.

00:19:18.100 And he has a photographic memory.

00:19:19.840 I said, look at the name.

00:19:20.680 That's Barack Obama.

00:19:22.000 I want you to memorize that so that when you see it on TV, you will know the name you voted

00:19:27.180 for.

00:19:27.740 I didn't know who was going to win at that point in time.

00:19:30.380 And so I pushed a button to light up his name.

00:19:33.280 And I said, Grandaddy, I need you to hit that green button.

00:19:34.880 The green button, of course, is vote.

00:19:36.360 And he hit that button.

00:19:37.460 And we walked back to the car, and the first time I saw my grandfather cry was April 29,

00:19:45.600 2001, when his wife of 56 years passed away.

00:19:48.800 The second time I saw my grandfather shed tears was that night after voting for Barack

00:19:54.540 Obama.

00:19:54.820 And if you ever wonder how blessed we are to live in this amazing nation, and how much

00:20:02.480 progress we've made in this nation, think about a man named Artis Ware and how far we've

00:20:09.420 come.

00:20:11.700 Wow.

00:20:12.720 Senator Tim Scott, you're amazing.

00:20:15.800 Coming up, a memorable moment from my conversation with two inspirational military veterans whose story

00:20:21.980 you are likely to know very well.

00:20:24.820 former Navy SEAL Rob O'Neill and former Marine Dakota Meyer have each been on the show separately.

00:20:34.380 But in episode 270, they joined the Megyn Kelly Show together.

00:20:38.560 The discussion we had that day was at times emotional, at times hilarious.

00:20:42.560 But the discussion on teamwork and how to handle fear off.

00:20:47.920 Dakota, you, I can't skip past my cheerleader story without talking about your cheerleader

00:20:57.860 story.

00:20:58.580 And it's not what the audience is thinking.

00:21:00.240 It's not like the young, hot Dakota Meyer and the cheerleaders.

00:21:04.400 It's a lesson about learning to trust and how important it is and staying humble, which

00:21:12.540 you, I understand, were taught firsthand while in high school.

00:21:15.520 Absolutely.

00:21:16.160 Yeah.

00:21:16.340 I, you know, I was a football, I was a football player.

00:21:18.660 I'm like Rob.

00:21:19.720 I wasn't getting beat up.

00:21:21.160 I'm like Rob.

00:21:21.900 I got to bring up.

00:21:22.280 Um, but, uh, yeah, you know, like I was your typical, I ran track, played football, um,

00:21:28.520 played some basketball, uh, you know, and that was kind of, that's what I did.

00:21:32.600 And so there was these, uh, you know, they're like sisters, uh, these girls and, uh, Mary

00:21:37.920 McKenzie and, um, they were cheerleaders.

00:21:41.720 And so, you know, I was always have, we read that, you know, brother, sister kind of, uh,

00:21:46.420 like lingo, you conversation, whatever you want to call it, picking on each other.

00:21:50.040 And I was like, you guys are cheerleaders.

00:21:51.660 Like, that's not even a real sport.

00:21:54.000 And, uh, so then they're, you know, they're like, well, well, you should come with us.

00:21:58.160 And I was like, I'll come, I'll come one day.

00:22:00.160 Yeah.

00:22:00.380 I'll come to your cheerleading gymnastics or whatever it was.

00:22:03.780 And so we went over and it was a, I guess it was like a travel team or, or whatever.

00:22:08.520 And so got over there and I did their, their gymnastics and we did, you know, where you

00:22:13.320 do back tucks and things back, handsprings and whatever.

00:22:16.380 And, um, afterwards they were going to do like some stunt stuff.

00:22:20.440 Well, they had this great idea that, uh, in a basket toss, you know, the back is, is

00:22:25.240 like really the person that, you know, catches the head of, of the person that you're tossing.

00:22:30.140 Uh, they're the person that, you know, is throwing, throwing, uh, you get, you get probably

00:22:33.780 the most leverage on throwing.

00:22:35.440 So I, um, we had this girl, her name was Keisha.

00:22:38.080 She was tiny.

00:22:39.320 And so like, come over here and do this basket toss.

00:22:41.560 And I'm not going to lie, like, uh, hanging out with a bunch of girls was not so bad.

00:22:46.280 Um, and went over there and threw up, you know, got, got under it.

00:22:51.300 And I was like, I'm going to show, I got to show off.

00:22:52.880 There's all these girls watching.

00:22:54.160 So I threw Keisha and the ceiling in this place was not, was not the highest.

00:23:00.080 And, uh, I'll never forget, like Keisha went up in the basket toss, she had to lay flat

00:23:05.120 so that she didn't slam into the ceiling and came back down and I caught her and, you know,

00:23:10.100 and there was just, it was really humbling for me to, you know, see just what it took

00:23:14.520 to be a cheerleader.

00:23:15.640 And so obviously I had to join, uh, you know, I was forced to join.

00:23:19.640 It wasn't that I liked it or anything.

00:23:21.020 Um, but just like being, you know, understanding and just seeing like, you know, just the athleticism

00:23:27.100 that it took for those girls to do that and to be part of it was something that, yeah,

00:23:30.780 I, I got taught and to be humble about it.

00:23:33.320 Um, I got taught real early and to, and to trust the people that they're going to catch

00:23:37.760 you, you know what I mean?

00:23:38.260 That's, that's like the military summed up in a line or two, right?

00:23:41.180 Like you got to, nothing's going to happen unless you trust each other to have each other's

00:23:44.360 back.

00:23:44.640 You get thrown up in the air or you go out first on the mission.

00:23:47.580 Um, it doesn't happen unless you've got this brotherhood or sisterhood.

00:23:52.020 Yeah.

00:23:52.400 And it's, it's the same thing in life, right?

00:23:54.060 You know, everything I've done, whether it's played football, whether it's work on a farm,

00:23:58.080 um, whether it's, uh, be a firefighter, whether it's be a cheerleader, whatever it is, you know,

00:24:03.380 uh, everything's been a team sport for me and life's a team sport.

00:24:07.780 The, the need to maintain calm in stressful situations, whether it's being tossed up as a,

00:24:14.460 with the ceiling coming towards your face, like Keisha did.

00:24:17.580 Um, but not panic has been a central theme really.

00:24:21.660 I mean, of your, both of your stories, really, I mean, in extreme circumstances, the ability

00:24:26.440 not to panic cannot be overstated, but not everyone has it.

00:24:30.380 And it's one of the things they try to train you when you're getting ready for these missions.

00:24:33.880 And I know, Rob, you, you've talked about how fear, like when people say like, how do

00:24:37.940 you not get afraid?

00:24:38.580 And you're like, I don't know.

00:24:39.640 I don't ask me.

00:24:40.580 I'm, I'm afraid every time, but there's a, there's a line between fear and panic.

00:24:45.140 Not everyone can find it, talk about it and how you mastered it.

00:24:50.280 That's a, that's a tough one to teach.

00:24:52.580 It needs to be learned through observation.

00:24:55.160 And I remember the, like, even the first time I went to war, I was assuming the worst suicide

00:24:59.920 bombers everywhere, gunfights everywhere.

00:25:01.380 And, um, as I'm creeping around, waste, wasting energy, trying to hide behind everything, every

00:25:06.020 step I take, I look at my boss and he just looked really cool.

00:25:09.680 He was calm.

00:25:11.220 And I just remember thinking, I want to be like that.

00:25:13.440 I want to be cool like that.

00:25:15.200 And what I've learned is, uh, um, calm can be contagious.

00:25:18.500 No one can tell what you're feeling inside.

00:25:20.100 But if you portray calm, everyone around you will be calm.

00:25:24.220 And, and, and that'll, that, that, that will happen.

00:25:26.620 But the, like, fear is fine.

00:25:28.020 Fear makes you think more clearly.

00:25:29.320 Fear is when you're watching a movie and you can hear everything in your house.

00:25:32.200 That's fear working for you.

00:25:33.480 But it's when you start to freak out that it's dangerous.

00:25:36.480 Like, like, uh, panic is very, very contagious.

00:25:39.040 The proof, proof is recent.

00:25:40.760 I will prove that panic is contagious.

00:25:43.080 It's called, I call it the great, uh, toilet paper debacle of 2020.

00:25:46.840 The reason that happened, as far as I know, and as far as most people should know, using

00:25:52.020 toilet paper is not a survival necessity.

00:25:54.880 It's just nice to have, you can, you can get on with it without toilet paper, but someone

00:25:59.580 freaked out at a, at a store and bought all the toilet paper.

00:26:03.140 And some asshole watched him do that.

00:26:04.940 And he sprinted to the next door and he bought it all.

00:26:06.880 And some other asshole watched him do it.

00:26:08.200 And then everyone started doing it.

00:26:09.400 Bam, we're out of toilet paper because one person panics.

00:26:11.200 We all start to panic.

00:26:12.260 And that's how it is.

00:26:13.000 I mean, you can see it.

00:26:14.300 It's actually fun.

00:26:15.340 Um, um, I get to go in airports all the time.

00:26:17.820 I flew in here, uh, where I am today.

00:26:19.440 I'm flying out tonight.

00:26:20.400 I get to see people in airports and people are generally nervous in airports.

00:26:25.460 That's why there is no such thing as drinking alcohol too early as a problem in the airport.

00:26:29.740 Um, but watch people as, um, somebody moves anywhere.

00:26:33.800 As soon as they announce, Hey, we'll be boarding this flight in 15 minutes, look around and watch

00:26:37.840 people as one.

00:26:38.580 It's like watching a herd of cattle.

00:26:39.700 They start to move their heads.

00:26:40.600 They start to stand up.

00:26:41.280 And God forbid someone from zone five tries to board with zone one.

00:26:45.120 That's when the fight breaks out.

00:26:46.500 And, and it's, it's that thing where everybody panics, but we talked earlier about muscle

00:26:50.040 memory.

00:26:50.740 Once we get on the plane, muscle memory, how you should be, you know, do everything like

00:26:53.960 you do anything.

00:26:54.640 I guarantee you the guy talking really, really loud on his phone in first class about how

00:26:58.140 important he is in his business trip.

00:26:59.360 He doesn't know where, um, his life vest is.

00:27:02.060 He doesn't know how to open an emergency exit because he's too good for that, but he certainly

00:27:05.980 can be the first one on the plane.

00:27:07.160 And then, you know, once I always said kind of, I don't want to be in a bad one, but like

00:27:11.280 a semi crash.

00:27:12.860 I want to see how people respond on a plane as you need to get out, who's grabbing their

00:27:17.400 iPads.

00:27:17.920 Who's I heard the flight that went down in the Hudson, uh, when Sully Sullenberger, uh,

00:27:22.640 he said he was the last one in the plane is they're in the Hudson, which I'm assuming

00:27:26.560 has got to be not normal.

00:27:28.500 He said he was walking through the plane.

00:27:30.400 Some dude came out of the bathroom in nothing but his boxer shorts.

00:27:34.020 He went in there, got his boxers and Sully said, what are you doing?

00:27:37.160 And he said, well, we're going to swim.

00:27:38.560 Aren't we?

00:27:39.760 Huh?

00:27:41.620 What?

00:27:43.260 Yeah.

00:27:43.700 So, uh, that's panic and panic can overtake you.

00:27:46.600 But if you're good enough, uh, if you've done like Dakota said, if you've done everything

00:27:49.660 in your life to get to that point and muscle memory needs to take over, hopefully you shot

00:27:53.460 the free throws like you should have.

00:27:54.480 Hopefully you did everything, every single time.

00:27:56.360 And you're good at it or you're great at it.

00:27:57.720 And, uh, I mean, it's January in the Hudson.

00:28:00.160 I'm not jumping in there in my box.

00:28:02.220 You know, I'm, I have a mild fear of flying.

00:28:05.140 I mean, Rob, Rob's been kicked off playing for less, you know what I mean?

00:28:10.840 Oh, I want to, I want to know more.

00:28:12.280 Did that make news?

00:28:13.340 Should I know about this?

00:28:14.320 Okay.

00:28:14.480 But you're in no position to, you are in no, no position to cast stones to call you a

00:28:18.560 little medal of honor winner.

00:28:20.080 No, you have not.

00:28:21.560 Because, uh, I teased earlier that one thing that happened at your medal of honor ceremony

00:28:26.660 that we did not know.

00:28:27.700 And I played that moment over and over again.

00:28:29.680 I mean, I interviewed you on the Cali file and when, when it happened, we watched it

00:28:33.260 with president Obama, the whole bit, very moving.

00:28:36.040 And at Fox news, we take the whole ceremony and put it on wonderful stuff.

00:28:40.120 Dakota wasn't necessarily all there at that, at that appearance.

00:28:44.920 Apparently, um, speaking of drinking booze in the airport, it can happen before a medal

00:28:48.620 of honor ceremony too.

00:28:49.700 Yeah.

00:28:51.140 Yeah.

00:28:51.580 You know, we, I mean, what do you expect when you invite 200 and some Marines to, to the

00:28:56.760 white house?

00:28:57.220 Right.

00:28:58.040 Um, you know, we, uh, when we were founded in a bar, just so you know, so we, uh, we

00:29:04.660 got there and they, uh, they were serving drinks and before, and I just mean, you know, everybody

00:29:09.340 wants to have a drink with you, right?

00:29:10.460 Oh, you gotta have a drink with me.

00:29:11.520 And we were drinking and drinking and I'll never forget.

00:29:14.480 Like they put, you know, everybody went in to sit down.

00:29:16.720 They, they actually ran, um, the white house ran out of beer.

00:29:21.180 Uh, they, they ran out of beer at the ceremony and they had to find a way to get more in,

00:29:25.400 which it's not just going down to the seven 11 on the corner.

00:29:29.120 That was very risky by you.

00:29:30.600 Speaking of your big risks.

00:29:32.060 I mean, can you imagine if you would like thrown up in the middle of the medal of honor

00:29:34.840 ceremony would have been awful.

00:29:36.740 No, right.

00:29:38.120 You know, sometimes I don't really think about those things.

00:29:40.760 Uh, you know, I, uh, but I'll never forget.

00:29:44.160 I didn't realize how, so everybody went in to sit down.

00:29:47.120 I didn't realize how drunk I was until, you know, me, the president and, uh, you know,

00:29:54.420 Michelle, we walked in after everybody was in there together.

00:29:58.420 And I'll remember walking in and I'm like, I am wasted.

00:30:02.600 And so I'm standing up on stage and there's this moment, you know, cause like the whole back

00:30:07.360 of the room is lined with cameras.

00:30:08.900 And I promise there was nobody who, uh, didn't want to be there more than, more than me.

00:30:14.080 And so I'm standing up there, you know, my family, they're all fighting already.

00:30:17.860 Well, some of them.

00:30:19.280 Um, and so I'm standing up there on stage and, you know, I'm at, I'm at position of attention.

00:30:24.780 I hadn't been in a uniform in two years, you know, and I'm up there and I'm standing position

00:30:29.200 of attention.

00:30:29.600 I know how Marines are like, if you do one thing wrong, uh, you know, they're, they're going to

00:30:33.980 crucify you and you have just, you know, ruined the legacy of the United States Marine

00:30:37.760 Corps.

00:30:38.120 Right.

00:30:38.600 And so I'm standing up there and I'm sweating so bad because these lights from the cameras

00:30:43.740 and I go and I'm so drunk that I have to go up and I'm just, I'm like, and it's, you

00:30:48.740 don't ever touch your face and I can't do it.

00:30:50.900 So I've got to wipe the sweat off and I think he thought that I was crying and, uh, all

00:30:56.940 these cameras would start going off like everywhere.

00:30:59.800 And I'm like, yeah, I was just wiping my head off guys.

00:31:01.500 It's all good.

00:31:02.100 Yeah.

00:31:02.380 Not it.

00:31:03.080 Not it.

00:31:03.720 I'm just drunk.

00:31:04.560 I'm just drunk.

00:31:05.840 Well, the other thing is I'm with, you know, respect, you're a little heavier in that particular

00:31:12.020 shot in that video than you are now.

00:31:13.940 And certainly then when you were fighting and you write about that too, in the book and about

00:31:16.780 your friend who gave it to you straight, like everyone needs this friend.

00:31:21.040 I usually think it was just a woman thing, you know, cause we need the friend who will

00:31:24.500 be like, your ass does look fat in those jeans.

00:31:26.940 You should not be wearing those.

00:31:28.680 And you have yet your ass looks fat in those jeans friend.

00:31:32.320 I did.

00:31:33.380 His name is, uh, his name's Tim Kennedy.

00:31:35.320 I don't know if you ever heard of him.

00:31:36.400 Yes.

00:31:36.640 Yes, of course.

00:31:37.760 Yeah.

00:31:38.040 We had him on.

00:31:39.440 Yeah.

00:31:39.800 Just, just an incredible guy.

00:31:41.380 He's no, he's a no bullshit kind of guy.

00:31:43.620 Um, and you know, I moved to Austin and I was going through, I was going through my divorce,

00:31:48.160 which was just, you know, by far, I would rather go through.

00:31:50.900 You know, five Afghanistans than a, than a divorce.

00:31:54.700 And, um, and, and, you know, I remember coming into the gym, we were working out on it and

00:32:02.040 myself, him and another guy, we're working out just on it.

00:32:04.460 And it was kind of on, it was kind of like my, or the gym was my, kind of my, like my,

00:32:09.480 my grounding piece to get me through this, right.

00:32:11.800 Working out and working with Tim and Shane, uh, and, and Juan.

00:32:15.220 And they, they, they, it was my getting me through this, right.

00:32:17.660 Like they were literally, um, the people, you know, when you talk about contagious, right.

00:32:22.340 Like they were the people around me that were, were holding the line.

00:32:25.220 And I'll never forget.

00:32:26.000 I came in one day and I was just, you know, probably looking for some, maybe a little empathy.

00:32:30.360 Uh, and I came in and I was like, man, um, I said something about like, I'm fat.

00:32:35.820 Yeah.

00:32:36.180 I said, I think I'm fat.

00:32:37.320 And, uh, and Tim kind of like, or I'm weak or something.

00:32:40.260 I can't remember what the exact line was, but Tim looked at me and he goes, Hey, Hey,

00:32:43.820 check it out.

00:32:45.160 Um, people look up to you as, as a warrior and you need to look like one.

00:32:50.760 You understand?

00:32:51.780 And I'll never forget.

00:32:55.200 I'm already down because my whole life is shattering around me.

00:32:58.900 And that was Tim's way of empathy.

00:33:00.800 But, you know, you have to surround yourself with people who tell you what you need to hear,

00:33:05.740 not what you want to hear.

00:33:06.620 That's Richard.

00:33:06.940 Um, you know, it's such a, so many times we surround ourselves in, and I see this a

00:33:13.660 lot.

00:33:13.980 We surround ourselves with people who make us feel good, you know?

00:33:17.260 And that's the same thing that I was doing when I got out of the Marine Corps was I was,

00:33:20.640 I was surrounding myself with people that made me feel good.

00:33:22.700 And I was eating things that made me feel good.

00:33:24.360 And that's why I looked, um, like this fat piece of trash.

00:33:32.140 I think, I think Dakota learned a lesson I learned from my grandma.

00:33:35.080 And she said, there's a big difference between a surprise party and an intervention.

00:33:40.720 I needed an intervention, you know, and in my life, didn't really get back on track.

00:33:44.960 You know, it didn't really start going forward, um, until I started surrounding myself with

00:33:50.460 people who would hold me accountable.

00:33:53.600 Coming up, the host of the mega hit podcast, the Bible in a year joins me for a frank and fascinating

00:34:01.780 conversation.

00:34:05.080 In episode three, nine, nine, as part of our two year anniversary week, we had on father

00:34:11.960 Mike Schmitz.

00:34:13.680 I was so excited to get him.

00:34:15.240 He's a tough guest to get.

00:34:16.780 He's busy with the Lord and other people, uh, but we got him.

00:34:20.400 He joined the show and still to this day, I'm getting stopped by people on the street

00:34:24.020 to talk about this.

00:34:25.220 Uh, we talked about the raunchiness of the Bible and how we can all navigate a cultural

00:34:31.660 landscape that seems so divided these days.

00:34:35.960 I love crime podcasts.

00:34:37.780 I'm, you know, one of those women who I'm into crime and I love Dateline and, um, I, I can

00:34:43.760 have Dateline in, Dateline on playing when my children walk in the room, but father Mike

00:34:49.160 and Bible in a year, we're on Sodom and Gomorrah.

00:34:51.560 I'm like, when the kids are, there's some R rated chapters in there.

00:34:58.160 Did you, I don't know if someone asked me about this last week, they said, when did you

00:35:01.600 start putting in like the, uh, like disclaimers at the beginning that by the way, if there's

00:35:06.360 children present, you get, because we had so many people writing, writing to us saying,

00:35:10.440 okay, we were listening as a family in the car and you started talking about, and I was

00:35:15.160 like, oh shoot.

00:35:16.580 So the Bible is not for kids.

00:35:18.960 A lot of incest.

00:35:21.000 Yeah.

00:35:21.620 And you're like, oh gosh, that's, and that's the thing that it takes so many people by surprise

00:35:25.760 is because think about even the story of Noah.

00:35:28.940 And I mean, that's, that's in virtually every children's, you know, picture Bible, every

00:35:34.200 children's, whatever, like, oh yeah, Noah and the ark and the flood and the, and the,

00:35:37.680 and the rainbow, okay.

00:35:39.760 And the flood right in there, like where everyone died.

00:35:43.700 Yeah.

00:35:43.960 That's part of the story.

00:35:45.040 And it's one of those where I think sometimes as adults, we're like, I remember hearing these

00:35:49.220 stories as a kid where I just kind of passed by as opposed to, wow, I really have to engage

00:35:54.580 with the Bible's not a Hallmark.

00:35:57.940 I always say like, it's not the Hallmark channel.

00:36:00.420 It is.

00:36:01.120 No, it's not.

00:36:02.260 It's HBO.

00:36:03.480 Especially, especially the old Testament.

00:36:05.080 The old Testament was like, okay, buckle in.

00:36:07.140 Get ready.

00:36:07.880 Yeah.

00:36:08.580 Yeah.

00:36:09.080 And I think it treats us like people who actually live in the world, which is one of the things

00:36:13.580 that I found has been that when people, so I got a letter from this man, maybe two months

00:36:19.460 in to when the podcast first aired.

00:36:22.260 And he had said that he was a committed atheist and that he had raised his children as committed

00:36:28.800 atheists.

00:36:30.120 And that he read the Bible a couple of times, but he said he started listening to the podcast

00:36:35.600 podcast and he said, I don't know what it was.

00:36:37.660 Maybe it's the explanations.

00:36:38.700 Maybe it's the context that you're offering, but he said, I know I come to believe like

00:36:43.540 I've come to, I can actually profess faith in this God and in Jesus.

00:36:47.220 And I'm like, this is incredible.

00:36:48.860 But one, I think part of that is, I think part of that is the Bible's written with the

00:36:55.360 real world in mind.

00:36:56.780 But oftentimes we approach it as if the Bible is like a magical book or as if the Bible,

00:37:01.320 again, is a children's book.

00:37:02.360 It doesn't actually have anything to say to my brokenness or my broken family or, or the

00:37:08.100 fact that, okay, I thought I was called at one point, like, you know, to be belong to

00:37:13.620 God, to be great.

00:37:14.600 But then I've got all these wounds.

00:37:17.160 I've got all this failure, this string of failure in my history.

00:37:19.680 And you realize when you read the Bible, oh, that's, that's what all our history is.

00:37:23.960 All of our history is this promise, but then the string of failures, but in the middle of

00:37:28.780 it is a God who doesn't take back his promise.

00:37:31.440 And I think that when people begin to approach that and realize, internalize it, then it's

00:37:37.040 like, wait, this is actually about me.

00:37:38.860 This, this isn't a foreign book entirely, at least not the way I thought it would be.

00:37:43.560 No, you always end feeling a little bit more hopeful, a little bit better about yourself,

00:37:48.640 about your time here.

00:37:50.080 That's one of the things I love about it is you learn a little bit and just always feel

00:37:53.300 a little better.

00:37:53.920 I wouldn't say it's exactly the same as when you walk out of mass on Sunday, but it's in

00:37:57.260 that same general field.

00:37:59.780 And we need a little hope in today's day and age, given the news cycle.

00:38:03.260 And especially as Catholics, I want to ask you about what we've seen since, I guess we

00:38:07.520 went back and looked, it wasn't just since the Dobbs decision was released that overturned

00:38:11.540 Roe versus Wade.

00:38:12.180 It's actually been since the release of the draft of the Dobbs opinion, which happened on

00:38:19.220 May 2nd, about a month plus before the actual decision was released.

00:38:25.280 Since then, there have been criminal attacks on 63 pro-life organizations in 26 states in

00:38:31.680 the District of Columbia, including on June 7th, when arsonists firebombed and vandalized

00:38:37.480 Compass Care Pregnancy Services Medical Office in Buffalo.

00:38:40.800 Also more than 30 Catholic churches attacked since the Dobbs leak.

00:38:44.800 This is so crazy.

00:38:46.640 And in 17 of those, they made clear it was about abortion.

00:38:49.560 Um, what have you made of this and of sadly the media, you know, has ignored it for the

00:38:55.740 most part.

00:38:56.640 Right.

00:38:57.240 I, that's the part, that's the part that is, is shocking to me.

00:39:00.920 That's the, is if I, if I step back, I get it.

00:39:05.760 And in the sense that if, if you feel under attack, then you want to lash out.

00:39:11.300 So, so that part of it is, um, again, obviously not condoning and not even saying like, this

00:39:16.220 makes sense, but I can understand how someone, if they're in a place where, wait a second,

00:39:20.680 I've had this, what I consider to be a right to have an abortion.

00:39:24.000 And now it's being taken away, a right's being taken away from me.

00:39:26.960 I get the idea that you'd want to lash out.

00:39:29.720 Um, at the same time, I don't get the, I don't get the reality that you've, this might

00:39:35.200 be for many people.

00:39:35.940 The first time they've heard of that is when you just mentioned it and that part of

00:39:40.340 it makes no sense to me because here is clearly something that's clearly illegal.

00:39:45.040 That's clearly violent.

00:39:46.040 That, that is what's going on in our world and in our country and our culture, that that

00:39:51.260 should be something that I would say is newsworthy and noteworthy.

00:39:55.200 And to not report on that is a, I think is, is in there being dereliction of duty is, is

00:40:03.780 I think what, what that would be ultimately.

00:40:05.940 Um, you know, when I say, I understand it, I want to clarify, I don't know if you've

00:40:11.820 seen like the Louis CK has this bit about, about abortion and he, he kind of goes this

00:40:18.700 line where he says, you know, either I'll say it in my paraphrase, uh, either, either

00:40:26.520 it's no, it's just like going to the bathroom or it's a baby.

00:40:31.140 Like easy.

00:40:31.820 It's one of those two.

00:40:32.460 It's either just, no, it's a procedure, like going to the bed.

00:40:34.420 No, no more, morally significant than going to the bathroom or it's a baby.

00:40:38.320 So he says, those people who are outside of an abortion clinic who are praying or who

00:40:42.880 are, you know, holding signs.

00:40:44.440 Now, of course, I think virtually every Christian, I know if you're Catholic Christian disavows

00:40:48.220 those people who would resort to violence.

00:40:49.820 That's absolutely.

00:40:51.220 But, um, but those people are praying outside abortion clinics would say like, you know,

00:40:54.600 I don't want this to happen.

00:40:55.820 Why?

00:40:56.080 Because I believe it's a baby.

00:40:57.100 He has this bit about, you know, people are so like, why, why are they so, uh, intent

00:41:02.460 out there?

00:41:02.840 Why are they so, so passionate about, about, out there?

00:41:05.540 He says, because they believe that it's a baby and you would expect them to be a little

00:41:11.560 passionate and not just kind of like, you know, whatever, whatever, do what you want.

00:41:14.720 And I think there's something about that I can understand on the other side.

00:41:19.420 If someone were to say, I believe that I have this right and I believe this right is

00:41:23.640 being stripped from me.

00:41:24.560 So I'm going to react now, of course, does it make sense?

00:41:28.120 I mean, I don't want to be circular.

00:41:29.300 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:41:29.660 I just, I don't, it's because I think there's something, there's something about seeking

00:41:34.640 to understand when you, when we see this, what I don't want to say crazy behavior, when

00:41:38.620 you see this behavior that is, I would say is clearly wrong.

00:41:42.200 You say, but these are real people.

00:41:44.720 Who are doing this behavior.

00:41:46.360 So that means I could do this.

00:41:49.020 If like the circumstances were right.

00:41:50.660 And I was convinced of something that I know that whatever I've seen anyone do, that would

00:41:56.680 be wrong, would be evil.

00:41:59.200 I have the same kind of heart and I'm not maybe inclined toward that kind of thing, but

00:42:05.600 I always have to step back and say, okay, what would the circumstances be that would lead

00:42:09.240 me to do something like this?

00:42:10.540 And unless, unless I really investigate myself, I will never be able to talk with someone.

00:42:15.060 Who would think that this would be the right thing to do.

00:42:17.720 That's the thing about you.

00:42:18.260 You're, you're the least judgy priest I've ever heard.

00:42:20.980 I mean, I thought that judgment came with becoming a Catholic priest, that that's part

00:42:24.900 of like the deal.

00:42:25.800 And you are the least judgy priest.

00:42:27.560 You have, you know, your moral principles and you'll espouse sort of what you think those

00:42:31.600 principles are as taught by the Bible, as, as handed down by God.

00:42:35.320 But you are always looking for a way to be gracious to people, even in this circumstance

00:42:42.480 we're talking about right now.

00:42:43.220 I mean, what, what's so crazy to me about the bombing of the pro-life clinics is I, again,

00:42:48.200 to, to say what you said, it's not that I understand the desire to go assassinate Sam

00:42:53.200 Alito.

00:42:53.540 I don't, it's not like I support it, but at least logically I see the line.

00:42:59.360 Okay.

00:42:59.680 Like he's the guy who was, it was Kavanaugh, but Kavanaugh was part of the majority, but

00:43:04.060 like a pro-life clinic.

00:43:05.300 Like they're probably not in favor of Roe versus Wade, but they're actually just helping

00:43:10.820 pregnant women who have chosen to have their babies.

00:43:13.140 So what is even controversial about them?

00:43:15.660 You know, like who, what kind of sick, twisted person?

00:43:18.100 It's not just a one-off, as I say, it's, you know, 63 of these places got attacked in

00:43:22.760 the past couple of months.

00:43:23.860 Who, like it still makes no sense.

00:43:26.540 Right.

00:43:26.900 Yeah, exactly.

00:43:27.780 Because I, and I think that you, we can look at this and say the, what has been the, I want

00:43:34.580 to say demonization, cause that's very dramatic at the same time.

00:43:37.880 It might be the only appropriate word when it comes to people who are, so I would, I consider

00:43:44.140 myself pro-life shock.

00:43:46.260 And I would say that, that what that means is, of course, I I'm pro the life of the baby.

00:43:52.020 I'm also pro the life of the mother.

00:43:53.540 I'm also pro like post-birth help and assistance of whatever we can do as a church and we can

00:43:59.720 do as Christians to help people who are helpless.

00:44:02.640 I mean, if you read the Bible, once again, it's who do you take care of?

00:44:06.960 Okay.

00:44:07.200 The poor, the widows, orphans.

00:44:09.240 Why?

00:44:09.660 Because they need the help.

00:44:10.960 And that's one of the things that is so important for us is like, why do we help?

00:44:15.520 Because someone needs it.

00:44:16.580 And that's why I love the definition of mercy being mercy is the love that we need the most

00:44:22.520 and we deserve the least.

00:44:24.440 And that's just, that's for, for everybody.

00:44:27.600 It's like, you don't qualify for my love.

00:44:29.640 You just need it to have that experience is just the worst because here you are going

00:44:36.400 in like, okay, I'm approaching the throne of mercy, right?

00:44:38.680 I'm approaching the seat of mercy.

00:44:39.820 I'm approaching this God who I've been told, and I do believe that he loves me and he loves

00:44:44.580 me and my brokenness a hundred percent.

00:44:46.440 Absolutely.

00:44:47.320 But then to have that heartbreak, I really do mean it like this heartbreak.

00:44:50.920 I did cry.

00:44:51.780 Yeah.

00:44:52.220 I can't, I can't imagine.

00:44:53.460 I can't imagine how hard it would be for anybody, but to be able to say, okay, here

00:45:00.420 I am.

00:45:01.920 And because, because I imagine Megan, that there's an element to, of just, I feel rejected.

00:45:07.160 Yeah.

00:45:07.980 And even the fact that you are still saying, no, but I'm still raising my kids Catholic.

00:45:12.500 I'm still going to mass.

00:45:13.400 I'm still, you know, striving.

00:45:15.520 I'm still doing my best.

00:45:17.540 That's incredible.

00:45:18.240 And I would say that that is, that is a sign of what we would call like lively faith.

00:45:23.460 That's a sign of a faith that's alive.

00:45:25.040 Is that, okay, because I had this bad experience and because, okay, I was told some things that

00:45:30.380 I really am wrestling with right now, but I'm still coming back.

00:45:34.600 I cannot commend you enough because that is, that's remarkable.

00:45:38.760 I can't imagine going through the heartbreak and then still saying, well, here we are on

00:45:43.120 Sunday, you know?

00:45:43.980 But, but I imagine it, yeah, I can't imagine how much it must have pierced broken your heart.

00:45:50.860 The other option essentially would be, maybe you mentioned this, would be to apply for a

00:45:55.360 declaration of nullity for that first marriage.

00:45:58.500 I have looked into that.

00:46:00.200 It is the most intrusive document.

00:46:02.060 I don't know if you've looked at these things, but it's like, how many times did you in your

00:46:05.580 former partner have said?

00:46:06.980 It was like, it was so much information.

00:46:08.620 I'm like, oh my God, I'm not giving all this information to a total stranger.

00:46:10.880 Yeah, and that makes sense too, because they're, on the flip side, while it is very, every

00:46:17.400 person who participates in it has to go through like a really big kind of examination of what

00:46:22.060 was our married life like that in that first marriage?

00:46:25.180 I've spoken with a lot of couples who have, you know, individuals who have gone through

00:46:30.180 the process and said, that was more healing than I thought it would be, because that's

00:46:33.880 part of what the annulment process is meant to be.

00:46:36.280 It's meant to say, okay, let me go back and as painful as it could be, I mean, go back

00:46:41.200 there and like, let's walk through this story again.

00:46:43.020 Can I just get a Jesuit to absolve me?

00:46:47.640 They're the easygoing priests.

00:46:50.660 Because then the, ultimately the, the story would be this.

00:46:54.140 The story is, um, the Lord, here's what I would say.

00:46:58.760 And this is not to, uh, here's what I know about you, Megan.

00:47:05.380 I know.

00:47:08.780 I know that God loves you very much.

00:47:13.040 I know that.

00:47:14.260 I know that he's given you the gift of faith.

00:47:18.920 And I know you have a story.

00:47:20.880 We all have stories.

00:47:21.620 That's the thing.

00:47:22.020 We all have a history, but here's what I know.

00:47:24.160 The God is a part of that story and your story isn't over yet.

00:47:30.840 There is this obstacle, but you have an incredible marriage now and incredible kids.

00:47:36.520 And that is real.

00:47:37.220 And that's part of the story.

00:47:38.080 That's again, it's not like saying it's not part of the story.

00:47:40.280 It's a hundred percent part of the story.

00:47:42.560 And the invitation is not again, to have a marriage where your brother and sister, I think

00:47:48.420 that part of that story would be able to say, okay, can I, can I apply for this declaration

00:47:54.140 of nullity?

00:47:54.660 Can I address this issue of this wound?

00:47:57.100 I'm going to imagine that the divorce was a wounding thing too.

00:48:00.260 I can't imagine having so much hope in that first marriage when it starts out.

00:48:03.640 And then how am I having so much heartbreak when it ended?

00:48:07.240 But I do believe this.

00:48:08.480 I do believe that the God who has, he has loved you, he still loves you.

00:48:11.920 And the one who you have faith in right now, I don't think this is the end of your story.

00:48:16.180 I think this would be a really good next step.

00:48:17.860 Um, at the same time, I know that that's not, um, it's not quick.

00:48:23.760 It's not easy, but here's where I don't jump.

00:48:26.700 Um, we know that there are objective things for all of us that like, okay, this is a no,

00:48:34.540 you have to always not do this.

00:48:36.440 Here's a yes.

00:48:36.940 You have to always do this.

00:48:38.460 And we fail at that.

00:48:39.660 But I can never jump and say, well, Jack, you did X.

00:48:44.920 Therefore you're going to hell because I don't know the story.

00:48:48.460 I only know the surface of the story.

00:48:50.420 And I hardly even know that.

00:48:52.060 I know some details you just shared with me.

00:48:55.040 Um, so I know there's some, okay, objectively, here's what, here's where we're at right now.

00:49:01.000 But also that's one of the reasons why Jesus makes it very, very clear.

00:49:05.100 He says, do not judge lest you be judged.

00:49:07.580 You cannot condemn lest you be condemned.

00:49:09.660 Um, because you never, we never know someone's full story.

00:49:14.200 And I would say that, um, again, going back to this place.

00:49:17.820 And I just, I really mean this, Megan, your story isn't over.

00:49:21.700 And I believe that God wants to continue blessing you and your family.

00:49:26.140 And I think maybe one of, maybe one of those ways you can continue blessing you and your

00:49:29.900 family is that next step of the declaration of nullity.

00:49:32.520 And again, I don't mean to be intrusive right now.

00:49:34.540 I'm so sorry that I'm like, I feel like I'm preaching, but I just, I,

00:49:39.660 you brought it up.

00:49:40.740 So, so I feel, I feel like he blessed me today with this interview and just getting to meet

00:49:47.520 you and hear your thoughts and your explanations and Abby get those forms and you start filling

00:49:51.580 them out.

00:49:51.940 You see, you know what happened in the first marriage.

00:49:53.300 When we come back, part of my conversation with the brilliant, like he actually might be

00:49:59.700 the most brilliant person walking amongst us on earth right now, Spencer Clavin.

00:50:06.480 We always love having Andrew Clavin on the show.

00:50:09.220 He's brilliant.

00:50:10.180 But in episode 382, his son, Spencer Clavin made his first appearance.

00:50:15.540 I am his fan.

00:50:16.640 I listened to his podcast heretics.

00:50:18.840 I read whatever he writes.

00:50:20.620 And so I'd been looking forward to meeting him.

00:50:22.780 He is so smart and thoughtful.

00:50:25.040 I mean, this is what you get when you have Andrew Clavin producing children.

00:50:29.280 You get Spencer Clavin, totally predictable in his brilliance and his approach to the world.

00:50:34.460 Smart, thoughtful.

00:50:35.800 And our conversation on being a man and a woman in 2022 was absolutely fascinating along with

00:50:43.000 balancing work and life.

00:50:44.440 I think you're going to enjoy this.

00:50:46.940 Let's talk about women and in 2022.

00:50:50.340 And I know you and your dad have both said what I believe, too, which is like, well, we've

00:50:54.000 gotten to this weird place, this dangerous place where we demonize homemakers, where

00:50:58.000 they're, you know, maybe a little less.

00:51:00.120 So now the right is starting to push back on that or has been for some time.

00:51:03.440 But still, I mean, in democratic circles, a lot of them that I know, women who stay at home

00:51:08.220 feel embarrassed about it.

00:51:09.240 It's ridiculous.

00:51:11.280 I remember being at a I've told a story before, but I was at my daughter's school.

00:51:14.760 We were having a mom's meeting and it was an all girl school.

00:51:18.920 And one of the moms was saying that whenever she leaves the house, she's a stay at home

00:51:22.880 mom.

00:51:23.440 She says to her daughter, mommy's going to a meeting.

00:51:25.620 I have a meeting.

00:51:26.620 And she wants the daughter to think that because she thinks it makes her sound more important.

00:51:30.740 And I was like, what are you doing that for?

00:51:32.400 Like, who cares?

00:51:33.480 You tell her like mom's a stay at home mom because I love you and I want to be there for

00:51:36.780 you.

00:51:36.920 And it doesn't mean if you're a working mom like I am, doesn't that you don't love

00:51:39.440 your kid.

00:51:39.740 But there's absolutely no reason to make excuses for your choice.

00:51:43.440 And by the way, even if you don't have a kid, even if you decide to be an Upper East

00:51:47.320 Side stay at home housewife, good on you.

00:51:49.880 If that's what you want, go for it, sister.

00:51:52.340 Do it and do it without embarrassment.

00:51:53.720 Like be a great wife.

00:51:55.020 Lean into your friendships.

00:51:56.260 What a lovely way to go through your existence if that's if that works for you.

00:51:59.920 But you have to do it unapologetically.

00:52:01.520 Now we're at this place where every girl's school and I have a I have two boys and a

00:52:05.540 girl.

00:52:06.020 My daughter's 11.

00:52:07.000 Every single girl's school.

00:52:07.860 And we've you know, we've only done girl's schools during her 11 years.

00:52:12.380 It's like stem stem.

00:52:15.380 You will be with no no pausing, no thought for like, what if she winds up really loving

00:52:22.640 literature?

00:52:23.060 Like, is that too girly?

00:52:24.700 Is that too female for you?

00:52:27.100 So she's got like hardcore science being shoved down her throat on the one hand.

00:52:31.160 Which I don't know that she's going to want at all.

00:52:33.360 And then on the other hand, you've got every other input she gets, which is pretty much

00:52:37.720 the opposite of stem.

00:52:38.960 It's the Lizzo's.

00:52:40.400 It's the Kim Kardashian's.

00:52:42.160 It's the Meghan Markle's.

00:52:43.640 And the message is basically narcissism.

00:52:47.240 Yes.

00:52:50.980 Well, it's both of those things are things you would say to women if you hated them.

00:52:56.540 I mean, that is really the point of that comedy routine you played earlier, I think,

00:53:01.740 is like these are ways that you would relate to little girls if you couldn't stand the nature

00:53:08.300 of womanhood.

00:53:09.700 And I genuinely think that that has been the driving force in a lot of feminism, basically

00:53:15.960 since the feminine mystique.

00:53:18.200 This is Betty Friedan's kind of, you know, inaugural text of second wave feminism.

00:53:23.020 We were talking about Gloria Steinem earlier, these new left folks who come along and look

00:53:28.700 with eyes of disgust upon homemakers in the suburbs.

00:53:33.360 And, you know, they're drawing upon a lot of discontents that were certainly there.

00:53:37.100 I think everybody was feeling a certain spiritual malaise at that point in time.

00:53:42.100 But the caricature of womanhood that you get when you go back to that book, you know, you

00:53:47.820 find her saying things like it's really it's like being in a concentration camp.

00:53:51.400 Seriously, I mean, I'm not making this up.

00:53:53.120 This is like, you know, it's the comfortable concentration camp where you lose your identity

00:53:57.860 and your soul.

00:53:59.180 And you see this now when you get articles in The New York Times, right, about if you calculated

00:54:05.160 the amount of money that you would have to pay a homemaker for her labor, you would pay

00:54:11.380 her a billion dollars or whatever number they've come up with.

00:54:14.960 But of course, it's preposterous precisely because the work of a homemaker exists outside

00:54:21.000 of dollars and cents.

00:54:22.660 That's the whole point.

00:54:23.860 It's inestimable.

00:54:25.020 A billion dollars would be an insult to a mother that stays home to raise her child because

00:54:30.400 she gets paid back in love.

00:54:31.900 And this is something that, you know, again, I come back to this thing about caricaturing

00:54:37.180 the great works, telling people not to read the great works by just pretending that they

00:54:42.920 are something entirely other than they are.

00:54:44.720 They depend upon you're never having actually cracked the books that would tell you otherwise.

00:54:50.460 So you go all the way back to, you know, Proverbs 31, right?

00:54:53.960 People go out and they say, I want a Proverbs 31 wife.

00:54:56.260 And this is the description of a good woman who can find.

00:54:59.380 And when people say that, you sometimes think they mean like, oh, I want a nice little angel

00:55:03.320 in the house, but it's like, you go back, the Proverbs 31 woman, she has strong forearms

00:55:07.840 because she's constantly like kneading her own bread.

00:55:10.600 She goes out in the early in the morning and she buys a field.

00:55:13.380 I mean, she's this woman that her children rise up and call her blessed.

00:55:17.680 And this has been, you know, the feminist line on homemaking has been that it's devalued,

00:55:24.120 that it's, you know, that it's infantilizing, that it turns women into these sort of meaningless

00:55:29.700 appendages in society.

00:55:31.260 But of course, they are society.

00:55:33.020 Women, homemakers are society.

00:55:35.460 And more and more girls, women that I talk to will tell me like, you know, I hate the

00:55:41.520 girl boss life.

00:55:42.800 I hate this thing.

00:55:43.640 I hate being on a treadmill.

00:55:45.420 You know, I have to like, you know, go out and work for some drudge boss when I could be

00:55:50.940 home making banana bread for my children, you know, and these sorts of things, again,

00:55:55.360 nobody ever said or needs to say that women should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen

00:56:01.720 all the time.

00:56:02.420 You just have to acknowledge that this, this is a different kind of person than a man with

00:56:07.780 a 50% of the world to make with a real role that is distinct from the man's world.

00:56:13.840 And this is, you know, if you, if you listen to the way feminists talk about womanhood as

00:56:18.280 weak, as, you know, as ignorant, as infantilized, then it's absolutely no surprise that the skyrocketing

00:56:25.940 gender dysphoria, which we're coming up against in this gruesome, disgusting attempt to mutilate

00:56:31.140 children is almost all among teenage girls who are going through puberty and coming into

00:56:35.480 womanhood and have no positive model for it.

00:56:38.680 It's, it's something again, that the right could be much better about, you know, loving

00:56:43.060 homemakers.

00:56:43.960 They are really the center of the world.

00:56:45.520 And I think we're starting to get better about this, which is overdue.

00:56:48.940 I think about, you know, when, when I grew up back in the dark ages of the 1970s and no,

00:56:54.180 women weren't as present in the workforce.

00:56:56.260 Uh, they were more present at home and they were being told back then you have to do it

00:56:59.580 all, like you do it all simultaneously.

00:57:01.840 You can good luck.

00:57:03.300 I mean, that was the worst era I think for mothers because there was pressure to work

00:57:06.420 full-time and be full-time moms.

00:57:07.980 And this was before, you know, society was set up for that, where they even had, you know,

00:57:12.260 support systems in place for moms who needed childcare and so on and so forth, putting aside

00:57:16.160 whether that's the right choice.

00:57:17.700 Um, but I will say, what do we have in terms of images?

00:57:20.400 Well, we had models on the cover of glamor and Vogue and 17.

00:57:24.900 Yes, they were too skinny.

00:57:26.840 Like that was about as much of damage as they were doing to the young girls.

00:57:30.620 Like you have to be skinny to be attractive.

00:57:32.000 Okay.

00:57:33.120 That's America.

00:57:34.060 Okay.

00:57:34.840 Now it's like, you have got to be a disgusting classless whore.

00:57:39.060 That's really, that's the future for you.

00:57:41.160 You've got a, I mean, forgive me.

00:57:42.720 I hate to pick on Kim Kardashian because she actually seems like a nice gal, but I'm saying

00:57:46.200 like break the internet with her enormous bottom and her breasts exposed.

00:57:49.880 And we're supposed to celebrate her and Kanye talking about how they do it all night long.

00:57:54.900 And then the, the Superbowl where I I've seen Shakira's vag and JLo's.

00:57:59.660 Why did I need to, I was trying to show my six-year-old the Superbowl and football, nobody's

00:58:04.200 vagina.

00:58:04.820 Like what the hell?

00:58:05.900 And it doesn't make me a prude to, to object to that.

00:58:09.240 Right.

00:58:09.360 I don't need to see any pubic hair at the Superbowl.

00:58:13.120 And then you've got right now, Megan Markle.

00:58:15.640 We talked about her yesterday and I mentioned her.

00:58:17.740 We mentioned her earlier.

00:58:19.040 She has got this podcast, $25 million.

00:58:21.720 She got paid from Spotify to do this podcast.

00:58:24.300 And so her second part, first podcast was Serena Williams, where Megan talked about what

00:58:28.020 a victim she's been her whole life.

00:58:29.200 She's a princess, but she's a victim.

00:58:30.500 Second episode is with Mariah Carey and Mariah Carey, actually in a great moment, Spencer

00:58:38.060 kind of turned the tables on Megan and called her a diva, which she is.

00:58:44.980 And let me bring it to you what happened, but I just feel like this is all hashtag part

00:58:49.160 of the problem.

00:58:49.800 Megan Markle, hashtag part of the problem.

00:58:52.680 Here's soundbite one in which Mariah turns the table.

00:58:54.780 And I think that's really important for people to remember that there might be this persona

00:59:01.520 and yes, the diva thing we can play into.

00:59:04.720 I mean, it's not something that I connect to, but if for you, it's been a huge part of

00:59:09.280 your diva moments.

00:59:10.800 Sometimes Megan, don't even act like you, it's also the visual, it's the visual, a lot of

00:59:18.360 it's the visual because see, that's the thing I associate it differently.

00:59:21.860 Well, I know, but let's pretend that you didn't, weren't so beautiful and didn't have the whole

00:59:27.400 thing and didn't often have gorgeous ensembles.

00:59:30.620 You wouldn't get, maybe get as much diva stuff.

00:59:33.760 I don't care.

00:59:34.680 I'm like, when I can, I'm going to give you diva.

00:59:38.300 Okay.

00:59:39.140 That was during the exchange because Megan's whole thing on this podcast, make it about

00:59:43.240 herself.

00:59:44.120 And then she, she comes back in her own closing remarks on her own podcast, Megan Markle,

00:59:48.780 having mused about the diva assertion and says the following.

00:59:54.600 It was all going swimmingly.

00:59:57.000 I mean, really well until that moment happened, which I don't know about you, but it stopped

01:00:05.220 me in my tracks when she called me a diva.

01:00:10.720 You couldn't see me obviously, but I, I started to sweat a little bit.

01:00:15.200 I started squirming in my chair and this quiet revolt, like, wait, what?

01:00:18.760 No, what?

01:00:19.540 But how could you, that's not true.

01:00:21.500 That's not, why would you say that?

01:00:22.820 My mind genuinely was just spinning with what nonsense she must've read or clicked on to

01:00:28.020 make her say that.

01:00:30.280 I just kept thinking in that moment, was my girl crush coming to a quick demise?

01:00:35.460 Does she actually not see me?

01:00:39.920 So she must've felt my nervous laughter and you all would have heard it too.

01:00:44.340 And she jumped right in to make sure I was crystal clear.

01:00:48.300 When she said diva, she was talking about the way that I dress, the posture of the clothing,

01:00:55.280 the quote unquote fabulousness as she sees it.

01:00:59.140 Oh my God, Spencer.

01:01:01.260 I'm, I'm gagging on the narcissism.

01:01:03.620 Yesterday she compared herself to Nelson Mandela.

01:01:06.520 And now today we have to deal with this.

01:01:09.020 She can't understand why anybody would think she's a diva.

01:01:11.260 I mean, let me count the ways as you know, during the Queens Jubilee, she's making sure

01:01:15.820 to put the window down so everyone can get her photograph, right?

01:01:20.320 As she's always got to be wearing princess Diana's jewelry as she's got to have just the

01:01:24.100 right angle and photographer.

01:01:26.060 And she'll only deal with this certain stenographer, press guy, Scobie, whatever his name is.

01:01:31.580 She won't do, she sues every magazine to write something negative about her.

01:01:34.660 She pulls the meanest comment about herself, tries to blow it up into what a victim she's

01:01:38.880 been because she's only used to the good things being said about her.

01:01:42.180 I mean, the fact that she didn't want to live in the, in the Royal Cottage and the Frogmore,

01:01:46.880 it wasn't good enough for her.

01:01:47.920 They had to redo it on the taxpayer dime.

01:01:49.640 She didn't, all of it.

01:01:50.760 I could keep going and now to be like, oh, the indignation.

01:01:56.060 Thank God it was just about my appearance.

01:02:01.060 Yeah.

01:02:01.280 Thank God that I understand.

01:02:02.960 Look at me.

01:02:05.060 This is the act of a person who would sit in Windsor Castle with Elizabeth, Queen Elizabeth,

01:02:10.560 a woman who once broke bread with Winston Churchill and complain about her mental health.

01:02:16.240 I mean, it's like, it's, it's not a day spa.

01:02:18.700 It's one of the most ancient monarchies in Europe.

01:02:21.100 Like it's, I mean, look, you know, I, I will say this when, uh, John Adams, when, when

01:02:28.940 Abigail Adams died and, uh, John Adams was left, survived her.

01:02:34.340 And when people would compliment him on the success of his son, John Quincy, uh, he reportedly

01:02:40.700 had something that he would always say in response.

01:02:42.780 People would say, oh, your son is so great.

01:02:43.840 You must be so proud.

01:02:44.560 And he would say, my son had a mother.

01:02:47.820 And when I first read that, I actually teared up a little bit.

01:02:50.800 I mean, we've, we've talked on this show about my dad and the close relationship that I have

01:02:56.260 with him.

01:02:57.440 And, you know, I, I like to joke, but it's, it's not really a joke.

01:03:01.720 Like my mom is the best Clavin.

01:03:03.800 She's like Clavin deluxe and she's the only one of us who never does any media.

01:03:08.020 So you all just have to take my word for it.

01:03:10.540 But I, you know, when I hear people talking about, uh, womanhood in these ways or offering

01:03:16.160 these, you know, role models to young girls, telling them they have to be like Meghan Markle

01:03:20.820 or like Lizzo, you know, I always think, you know, I, I too had a mother and it, that it

01:03:25.240 incenses me on those terms, you know, just to, you know, my, my mom stayed home with us.

01:03:30.660 Uh, she had a thriving career on either side of that.

01:03:33.720 She was a successful writer before we were born.

01:03:37.020 She continued to write a little bit, but basically stayed home.

01:03:39.600 And then, you know, when we were grown, she took up her career and you talked very eloquently

01:03:45.420 about the kind of, you know, you can have it all, uh, mentality, this narrative that

01:03:50.440 you can do it all at once.

01:03:51.540 And, and I, I've seen that too, I think, I think there's still a little bit of it going

01:03:56.280 around, but the irony is of course, that if you'll just let go of these, you know, confected

01:04:03.720 narratives, these absolutely artificial narratives that were not designed by people who have your

01:04:09.120 best interests at heart, that were not cooked up so that you could thrive and flourish, but

01:04:14.140 so that somebody else could make money off of you to just let go of that.

01:04:16.620 You know, you actually can have an entire rich, full life as a woman who, you know, raises

01:04:23.140 children and has a career.

01:04:24.980 That's a very real thing.

01:04:26.820 It's just not in any way, it doesn't look anything like this confection that they're

01:04:31.740 serving you.

01:04:32.720 And that's why it, you know, gets me is to think about my own mother whom I do rise up

01:04:37.120 and call blessed as, as in, as in Proverbs, you know, and, and to kind of, uh, I, again,

01:04:42.940 I feel sorrowful for, for the girls who are being offered this just really, uh, unhelpful

01:04:49.000 image.

01:04:49.880 Now, I think, I think back to myself when I was deciding whether to stay at Fox or leave

01:04:54.980 and it's, it's funny because some people online seem to believe that I was fired from

01:05:00.600 Fox to the contrary.

01:05:02.500 Uh, I was offered a mega deal by Fox should be so lucky and, uh, and I decided to reject

01:05:09.920 it because I was miserable, um, not putting aside the toxic lifestyle that comes with being

01:05:16.980 in the prime time of cable news, which I think is readily apparent to most people.

01:05:20.460 I was not seeing my children.

01:05:22.900 I wasn't raising my own children and they were still very young.

01:05:26.420 I hadn't missed it all.

01:05:28.040 They were seven, five and three.

01:05:29.600 So I could still be very present for most of their childhood.

01:05:33.700 And that's why I went to NBC because they offered me a show at nine in the morning where

01:05:38.240 I thought, okay, I'll be able to be at home for the rest of the day.

01:05:41.820 And that is the one upside of that position that I took.

01:05:44.280 But I will tell you two very powerful women whose names you would know who I talked to

01:05:50.980 and who were friends of mine and fans of mine urged me not to go, urged me not to go.

01:05:56.460 And it didn't have to do with politics.

01:05:57.700 It had to do with leaving what they perceived as a very powerful post for one that was less

01:06:03.980 powerful, which was clear, even though it would allow me to raise my kids.

01:06:07.900 That was not.

01:06:09.160 And they had made different choices and they are both moms.

01:06:12.380 And I couldn't.

01:06:15.000 I couldn't explain to them, you know, it's like if you don't understand why this is a

01:06:18.420 priority for me and I and it's it's fine if it's not for you.

01:06:22.200 You know, I mean, there are plenty of kids who are raised by working moms who turn out

01:06:25.700 great.

01:06:26.360 But I knew in my family I needed more.

01:06:30.580 I needed to be with them.

01:06:32.280 So now I found a way to do it all right now.

01:06:34.420 I actually am doing it all because I get to work from home.

01:06:36.940 It's in the middle of the day when they're at school.

01:06:38.660 And now what I get, Spencer, is tons of people saying, like, when are you going to get it

01:06:41.400 back on TV?

01:06:42.100 When are you going to get back on TV?

01:06:43.380 And I tell them the truth, which is I have no desire to do that.

01:06:46.620 I love my life right now.

01:06:48.400 And it's not like I didn't get here without some bumps and bruises.

01:06:52.100 But, you know, if you know what to prioritize, what's important to you, you just keep trying

01:06:57.680 and trying and trying again until you until, you know, for you, you nail it for me right

01:07:02.080 now.

01:07:02.420 I'm nailing it.

01:07:03.460 And it's in large part because I see my children.

01:07:06.580 Well, that reminds me in a weird sort of way.

01:07:09.680 It reminds me of this amazing moment in an essay by Wendell Berry, who's not really a man

01:07:15.740 of the right at all.

01:07:16.760 He's more of an environmentalist, you know, essayist who kind of wrote about his life on

01:07:22.760 a farm and so on and so forth.

01:07:25.040 But one of his essays, he recounts telling his I think it was his grad school professor,

01:07:31.400 somebody, some mentor in New York, you know, the big city.

01:07:34.800 He's starting to make it as a writer.

01:07:36.940 And he comes to this guy and he says, I think I need to go back to Kentucky.

01:07:40.500 I guess it was, you know, and I feel a call to the land.

01:07:43.660 I feel a call to some more authentic engagement.

01:07:46.660 And he recounts it.

01:07:49.020 It's as if he's speaking Swahili to this guy, because this is a person that can't imagine

01:07:52.620 that any writer would ever want to be anywhere but New York.

01:07:55.500 Right.

01:07:55.800 How could you possibly what's what's what reality is there for you to invest yourself in?

01:08:01.220 And of course, this was the making of it.

01:08:02.680 You know, this was Wendell Berry's whole career was then to go back and his engagement with

01:08:06.440 the earth and with farming.

01:08:07.320 That was that was everything he would write about.

01:08:10.120 But we do have, I think, largely among the laptop class, this vision of life that is purely

01:08:18.060 commercial and incredibly provincial, highly urbane.

01:08:22.060 Right.

01:08:22.220 Just you live in the cities, you maximize your career ambitions and everything else is just

01:08:28.400 weakness or failure or inadequacy.

01:08:31.080 And that story you tell, right, is anything but any of those things.

01:08:34.760 Right.

01:08:34.940 Obviously, this is a journey for you toward fullness and self-actualization.

01:08:40.140 And that, you know, the family would be central to that, I think, is like very foreign to a

01:08:45.520 lot of our elite classes.

01:08:48.800 And and it's almost like people people were sort of advising me, you'll be weaker.

01:08:55.040 Right.

01:08:55.400 You're weakening yourself when exactly the opposite was true.

01:08:59.440 I was at my lowest.

01:09:00.760 I was empty.

01:09:03.200 I who I couldn't care less that I had a powerful post and a bunch of bunch of dough.

01:09:07.560 It's not like NBC didn't pay me well, but I'm just saying, like, if that wasn't my

01:09:10.940 driving motivation at all, I was empty and not like that was a great experience at my

01:09:17.000 next organization.

01:09:17.720 But now now being with them, raising my own children, having all this great time with

01:09:22.180 them, not to mention my husband, I'm full again.

01:09:24.820 I'm great.

01:09:25.720 I'm not going to make a stupid mistake with this full tank of gas and going back into

01:09:29.560 that mess.

01:09:30.540 Right.

01:09:30.740 People like do it.

01:09:31.640 We're going to fuck you.

01:09:32.260 We'll come back to Fox.

01:09:33.020 I'm like, sister, I'm good.

01:09:35.060 Coming up, an incredible story of perseverance from the one and only, she's a badass, Dr.

01:09:43.520 Carol Swain.

01:09:48.040 I love Dr. Carol Swain.

01:09:49.760 Don't you love her?

01:09:50.620 She's just giving it to the university system.

01:09:53.160 She doesn't fit into their demanded boxes, right?

01:09:56.740 They want her to be a certain way because she's this inspiring woman of color, but she is the

01:10:01.740 way she is.

01:10:02.440 She doesn't care who she offends.

01:10:03.760 She feels the way she feels and she's done her homework.

01:10:06.540 Anyway, I love her.

01:10:07.440 It's episode 281 and we talk about her troubled upbringing, how young people can get ahead

01:10:12.300 in life and her battles at Princeton.

01:10:16.920 So, Carol, you decided to get your GED.

01:10:19.620 You did that.

01:10:20.320 And then, as I understand it, you had an encounter with a medical doctor who paid you a compliment

01:10:25.540 and you started to think about what your future might look like differently.

01:10:31.080 Yes.

01:10:31.480 It was after one of my suicide gestures.

01:10:35.660 This doctor, he spoke to me and then he spoke to my husband at the time.

01:10:40.600 And after that conversation, he just told me that I was intelligent, I was attractive, I could do more with my life.

01:10:56.740 And I had forgotten that I was intelligent because even during those years when we were missing lots

01:11:03.580 of school, my older sister and I could miss, you know, a week of school, two weeks of school and still go in and make an A or a B.

01:11:11.720 And I guess that's a credit to my mother because I know that my mother could have gone to college under a different set of circumstances.

01:11:19.080 She had polio and that was a factor in her dropping out of school.

01:11:23.420 She couldn't climb the steps of the high school.

01:11:27.320 And so he reminded me, you know, that there was a time when I was smart.

01:11:33.600 And also the high school class that I would have graduated with, people were graduating that, you know, in my mind, I knew these people and I knew that they were not as smart as I was.

01:11:46.100 And I learned about the high school equivalency test at a time when I was too young to take it, because in the state of Virginia, you had to be 20 to take it.

01:11:54.920 And I wasn't 20 when I learned about it.

01:11:56.700 But I did take the test and I was told that I had one of the highest scores they had seen, except in math.

01:12:05.040 I barely passed math.

01:12:06.760 I scored in the 34th percentile.

01:12:10.460 And I think that 32 was the failing percentile.

01:12:14.560 And that had a lot to do with there's no way that you can do well and understand algebra

01:12:22.480 and and higher mathematics if you're not in school and understanding the processes.

01:12:28.380 And I did drop out after completing the eighth grade.

01:12:31.980 I started the ninth grade and that was when I totally left school.

01:12:36.500 And I remember that the last report card that I received in school was all F's.

01:12:42.780 And that was because there was so much turmoil at that time.

01:12:48.120 I was living with my sister in Roanoke, that there was no way to focus a study.

01:12:53.940 It was all about survival.

01:12:56.880 Yeah, I can I can understand that just from the stories that you're you've been telling about that time.

01:13:02.760 So you wind up taking the GED.

01:13:05.580 You score well.

01:13:07.060 And then I love the story of you.

01:13:09.060 You went first to community college and I heard you.

01:13:12.040 I think it was on James Dobson's podcast talking about how you were the one.

01:13:16.320 And this is the one thing I tell people, Carol, when they say, like, how should I get ahead or what should I do to, you know, if I want your job, what should I do?

01:13:22.300 And I always say, say yes to everything, especially when you're young, like be the one volunteer to work overnight, work on Christmas, work on the weekends.

01:13:30.320 Be the one who says yes to empty the garbages.

01:13:32.480 If that's if that's what they want you to be above nothing.

01:13:35.600 That's never.

01:13:36.240 And you know what?

01:13:37.120 I'm still that person.

01:13:38.420 I'm still the one who is like, I'll do it.

01:13:40.240 I'll do it all.

01:13:40.840 I can I can do it.

01:13:41.720 I can turn things around.

01:13:42.620 And it like it's amazing because not everybody's that way.

01:13:46.780 So if you can just make yourself that way or commit to being a hard worker, success will follow.

01:13:51.680 And that was so evident in your community college experience.

01:13:54.920 Tell us what you did while you were there.

01:13:57.560 You know, sometimes I don't tell this part of the story because I don't believe I don't think people will believe it.

01:14:03.640 But I was a work study student working 10 hours a week in the community college library.

01:14:10.740 Often the regular employees would call out.

01:14:13.860 And so there'd be a crisis about who's going to work the evenings.

01:14:17.200 And I would always volunteer to work the evenings.

01:14:21.180 And so the library director created a full time job nights and weekends.

01:14:27.040 They hired me for that.

01:14:29.620 And I had a position where when I decided to get a four year degree, I could go to school full time during the day, work nights and weekends, bring my children to work when I needed to and set them at a table.

01:14:44.500 You know, I didn't know God at the time, but he certainly set up the perfect job situation for me.

01:14:50.380 For five years, I worked for the state of Virginia, you know, getting paid what was the salary at that time.

01:14:57.540 And I was going to school and because people didn't use the library nights and weekends, I studied and I graduated magna cum laude from Ronald College.

01:15:07.700 Wow.

01:15:08.200 And prior to that, I skipped over.

01:15:10.080 I feel like these are God's messengers, but I skipped over the orderly who did he or she put a book on your bed.

01:15:18.160 Can you just cover that?

01:15:19.740 Because I feel like that's one of the messengers.

01:15:21.800 Two different stories.

01:15:23.020 When I was working in a nursing home, an African orderly from Sierra Leone told me that he went to college with a lot of people who were not as smart as I was.

01:15:33.300 I ought to go to college.

01:15:34.360 And so that's how he planted the seed that led me to check into the community college and start my college education.

01:15:44.380 So the medical doctor and the African orderly had words that changed my life.

01:15:50.420 Now, the story about the hospital experience, that was during the time when I had, I would say, Paul on the road to Damascus trip experience.

01:16:04.540 I was in the hospital for a medical reason.

01:16:07.620 I was taking medications and some people would say that it was a medication.

01:16:12.080 But my life played in front of me and I thought I was dying.

01:16:17.200 And I was, you know, I was just totally, I would say, messed up and lost.

01:16:23.500 I didn't actually know that.

01:16:26.120 But I know that my life played in front of me.

01:16:28.820 It was as if there was a narrator showing me different points in my life, asking me to choose.

01:16:34.200 And I knew about, you know, I knew about Jesus.

01:16:37.860 I knew about Christianity, but I believed in reincarnation at the time.

01:16:43.720 After I tell this story, any credibility I have left in the world is gone.

01:16:48.160 But anyway, I'm excited.

01:16:51.520 I believed in reincarnation because I couldn't explain my life.

01:16:55.640 How is it that of the 12, I was the one that got out?

01:16:58.620 It didn't make any sense to me.

01:17:00.180 My life was always better than their lives.

01:17:01.960 I was buying a new house when I was 17.

01:17:06.980 And it just, and that happened because I happened to be listening to the radio.

01:17:11.400 They were advertising FHA 235 homes.

01:17:14.560 All you needed was $300 down.

01:17:16.860 And so I watched a brick house being built from the ground up, you know, that I lived in.

01:17:22.320 And so to my family, you know, my experience was so, it was just, it was just so different.

01:17:29.820 And, but I had, and I had a lot of guilt about that.

01:17:33.760 It didn't make sense, you know, why my life was so much better than everyone else's.

01:17:38.640 But in that hospital, I chose Christ, even though I didn't know, you know, anything about Christianity.

01:17:47.500 But at first I was thinking, you know, that, that when the narrator said, you're not be born again, that I had reached the top of this, you know, karmic circle.

01:17:59.500 And that was why I wasn't going to be born again.

01:18:01.660 As a Christian now, I know that it means that you had this one life.

01:18:05.360 You got to get it right.

01:18:06.360 This one life.

01:18:07.440 There was a black Pentecostal chaplain at the Princeton Hospital.

01:18:11.620 That is not a community where you should get a black Pentecostal chaplain, you know, maybe you get Lutheran, you get Catholic, Episcopalian, you don't get black Pentecostal, but there was one there.

01:18:24.820 And my father had been a Pentecostal.

01:18:26.840 I had not been any of that stuff.

01:18:28.680 Um, and he talked with me and there was a, um, cleaning lady who threw a book about Jesus into the hospital bed and said, this is all you need.

01:18:39.700 And, uh, and those people, um, arranged for me to get baptized.

01:18:45.240 I got baptized in a cold metal tub in a inner city hospital, uh, inner city church in Trenton.

01:18:53.740 Uh, but I didn't understand really what I was doing.

01:18:57.700 And, uh, and I came out of that experience going to church for about three months, but leaving it behind and blending new age and Eastern religions, because I never felt like the Christian religion had answers.

01:19:13.780 It didn't have any power.

01:19:15.040 And so for a while I had, um, uh, the, the Swain religion, which was a blend of a whole lot of stuff.

01:19:22.420 And it took me probably another two and a half, two and a half to three years to really understand the Christian gospel, what it meant to follow Jesus Christ.

01:19:33.060 And when I made that decision, I got rebaptized.

01:19:36.080 Uh, so that is part of that part of my story, uh, how I got from the community college to the four year college, four year college.

01:19:46.640 Um, I hadn't planned to get, uh, a bachelor's degree.

01:19:51.120 I applied for jobs in business, had chosen business because I had been told that art was not practical and I wanted to be practical.

01:19:59.280 Um, and, uh, when I applied for jobs in the business realm, I was told I needed a bachelor's degree.

01:20:06.520 I went through the college catalog.

01:20:07.740 I looked for the field.

01:20:08.780 I had the least amount of math.

01:20:10.200 It was criminal justice.

01:20:11.920 And, uh, that interested me and political science.

01:20:15.760 I was interested in it because it was about power relationships.

01:20:20.140 And it was not that I wanted it.

01:20:22.040 I wanted to study people who had power and I was happy to go to a predominantly white school because I've been black all of my life.

01:20:30.900 I've been around black people.

01:20:32.100 I wanted to know how the rest of the world thought and felt.

01:20:35.440 Hmm.

01:20:36.280 Well, none of that is in any way credibility threatening, uh, I think to the contrary.

01:20:42.640 Uh, but when you look back and you sort of see these little messengers coming, whether it's the, the African orderly or the doctor or the woman who put the book on the bed,

01:20:50.600 it does seem to me like God was knocking and eventually you opened the door and I know that you found that spiritually enriching and it changed your life and it changed the way, you know, you enjoy life.

01:21:01.860 But I also couldn't help but wonder if you think it was the beginning of troubles for you in the academic setting, because it's not a particularly spiritual realm.

01:21:12.680 Um, and I'm not so sure they were, you know, based on what I've heard, you talk to a lot of folks, um, that they were totally in favor of this new version of you.

01:21:23.280 I can tell you that the Princeton years were, were hard, but not because I was a Christian or anything like that.

01:21:29.760 I was struggling with all the trauma, I guess, from my childhood and I started getting attacked by other blacks early on.

01:21:38.680 I mean, part of it had to do with the fact that they had black political scientists, black organizations.

01:21:43.740 I was the student.

01:21:45.340 I was the black person that didn't join the black student union when I was getting my four year degree because I was too busy.

01:21:51.780 I was trying to distinguish myself.

01:21:54.040 I mean, I had a plan that I was going to graduate with honors and I had children.

01:21:58.120 And so I was focused.

01:21:59.740 Uh, and so, um, and, and in the graduate school, I just was not involved in the black stuff.

01:22:05.740 Uh, when I became a political scientist, I did not go through the ranks of black political scientists.

01:22:12.180 All of a sudden they discovered that there was this black woman at Princeton that was getting all this attention.

01:22:18.140 And, uh, you know, my first book, it won national prizes and all this stuff.

01:22:22.580 There was a lot of jealousy and I was attacked and I was told that I was a conservative.

01:22:28.040 And back then I did not want to hear that I was a conservative and I definitely wasn't a Republican.

01:22:33.060 Uh, and I was told that, you know, that I had sold out black people and that if they, they could be at Princeton too, but they weren't willing to sell out their race.

01:22:45.760 And, and, and I just didn't know.

01:22:48.200 And I would look at my, uh, my, uh, resume, I would look at my CV and, and I would just wonder, you know, like, how did this happen?

01:22:58.820 Uh, because everything they were saying and their worldview was so different from my worldview, but Princeton years, they were, they were a struggle.

01:23:08.160 Uh, and I started, uh, the spiritual journey right after I got tenure.

01:23:12.900 And it was almost like when I was on that quest for tenure, I had told them when I was hired that I was going to do it in three years and seven years normally.

01:23:21.400 And the person who chaired my search committee, he was John Diulio, you know, who President Bush appointed to be the head of the first faith-based initiative.

01:23:33.360 And now he's a professor at Penn, as far as I know.

01:23:36.760 Uh, he had gotten tenure in one year and he came from a working class background.

01:23:42.040 Father was a cop, Italian.

01:23:44.320 Uh, and so he, you know, didn't really fit either.

01:23:46.860 Uh, and so I thought if, if John could do it in one year, I certainly can do it in three years.

01:23:53.400 And so when I was hired, I told them I was going to do that and people said, oh yeah, fine.

01:23:58.160 And, uh, and I actually, you know, went up early and got early tenure and that created, um, problems and it created problems because, um, you know, I had outside offers and I played hard ball.

01:24:13.260 Uh, I, I, I was asked, you know, would, would I do if they told me to wait a year?

01:24:20.600 And I said, I'll take one of my offers.

01:24:23.180 And my chairman at the time asked me, well, if you take one of your offers, can we ever get you back?

01:24:29.780 And I said, no, I spend the rest of my life proving what a mistake Princeton made.

01:24:35.140 And so they gave me tenure, but, um, that those were the circumstances.

01:24:39.940 And so then after I got tenure and I think a lot of it had to do with, I just wanted to prove that someone from my background, you know, could go to Princeton and they could get tenure and they could get it early.

01:24:51.720 The depression came back, you know, and then that really accelerated the spiritual journey, uh, that culminated, you know, with the conversion experience.

01:25:04.060 Well, don't you think sometimes when you're chasing ghosts and you think if you can, if you can catch the ghost, it's going to make you feel happy.

01:25:11.640 It's the thing you need to feel fulfilled.

01:25:13.360 And then you catch the ghost and it does what a ghost will do, which is goes right through you and out the other way in a totally unfulfilling way.

01:25:19.340 And then you're left to say, now what?

01:25:22.040 That didn't work at all right now.

01:25:24.420 That's right.

01:25:25.480 Now opportunity, I guess, to find out what's really bothering me.

01:25:29.900 You perfectly captured it.

01:25:32.980 It was chasing the ghost.

01:25:34.660 And I, I won the highest prize a political scientist can win, won three national prizes, earning more money than I ever imagined in my life.

01:25:42.320 And I was miserable.

01:25:43.640 It was, it was terrible.

01:25:45.600 I was so unfulfilled and I never thought of suicide again.

01:25:50.420 I, even though some people thought I might, but no, I was never attempted to do the suicide gestures again, but I was terribly, terribly unfulfilled.

01:26:01.980 But life would have so much more in store for Carol Swain.

01:26:06.800 We close out the show with an inspirational bestselling author.

01:26:10.980 We'll be right back.

01:26:12.020 In episode 263, bestselling author, Arthur Brooks, join the show for a deep discussion on happiness, how to make the most of each day and the value of conversation.

01:26:29.100 I really enjoyed the one we had.

01:26:30.740 There's a reason people become workaholics and, and it's, I think it's related to what you write in the book is called the striver's curse and the, the chasing of these false idols.

01:26:43.700 Also a story from, you know, the beginning of time that we continue to not learn the lesson on, but people start out in earnest, you know, the land of the free, the American dream.

01:26:52.520 We can do anything.

01:26:53.500 You can build a career.

01:26:54.520 We can be successful.

01:26:55.600 We can spike the ball in the end zone.

01:26:57.180 We can have that moment if we would just work a little harder, get a little bit more success, and then we'll have that moment.

01:27:02.780 I don't know what the moment looks like different for every person, but you know, maybe it's actually spiking the balls, Tom Brady.

01:27:08.560 Maybe it's Paul Newman with another Oscar, you know, back in his day.

01:27:11.740 What you tell me, how do people get lured in to the striver's curse?

01:27:17.080 Yeah.

01:27:17.300 Your brain wants you to think that this is the case.

01:27:20.200 Here's the key point.

01:27:21.580 This took me years to figure out lots.

01:27:23.640 I mean, I suffered through a doctoral dissertation on this stuff, Megan.

01:27:28.580 Mother nature doesn't care if you're happy.

01:27:30.600 Mother nature just wants you to pass on your genes.

01:27:33.420 That's basically our job is to actually be happy.

01:27:36.440 I mean, this is the thing.

01:27:37.300 It's quite interesting.

01:27:38.280 You know, people will say, how can you be religious if people have these terrible, evil, natural tendencies?

01:27:43.720 I think that's why I'm religious.

01:27:46.000 That's why I'm a Catholic is because I want to be in charge.

01:27:49.540 And I actually think that, you know, nature might push me in one direction, but God wants

01:27:54.340 me to have free will and do something else.

01:27:55.880 Okay.

01:27:56.060 Now, maybe people who are listening to us aren't religious.

01:27:58.460 It doesn't matter.

01:27:59.420 We're talking about your free will to be the master of your life is what it comes down to.

01:28:04.260 Your brain says, you know how you're going to get satisfaction?

01:28:07.560 It's like a trick.

01:28:09.720 I'm going to make you run on the treadmill and run on the treadmill.

01:28:12.380 And I'm going to tell you year after year after year that sooner or later, you're going

01:28:16.160 to get there.

01:28:16.640 Now, you're looking down at the band that's turning under your feet.

01:28:20.000 You're like, I don't think so.

01:28:21.580 I kind of did.

01:28:22.600 But, you know, my brain is telling me I'm actually going to get there.

01:28:24.680 So run, run, run, run, run.

01:28:26.020 That's an unexamined life.

01:28:28.040 Here's the key.

01:28:28.780 We actually have to be in charge and say, yeah, I realize that I keep having these tendencies.

01:28:33.540 I have these, you know, the great medieval philosophers would say there's four idols in life.

01:28:39.120 They look kind of godlike because they have this.

01:28:42.500 They're so attractive, right?

01:28:43.660 They are money, power, pleasure, and fame.

01:28:47.860 And fame doesn't necessarily mean you want to be famous.

01:28:49.640 It means prestige.

01:28:50.420 It means the admiration of other people, which we all want to be admired by other people.

01:28:54.640 And those things, those lures will make you run and run and run.

01:28:58.480 And they promise satisfaction.

01:29:00.520 But they're liars.

01:29:01.780 And sooner or later, the sooner we figure that out by actually saying, no, I refuse.

01:29:07.540 Look, money's great.

01:29:08.700 But only if it's an instrument to something more important, to serve other people, to support your family, to support the relationships and the love in your life.

01:29:16.760 Only then can it be a conduit to your satisfaction.

01:29:19.600 If it's the object of your satisfaction or your power or your pleasure or the admiration of other people, you will be frustrated because you will never get there.

01:29:28.440 And most people wind up running on that treadmill and never quite figuring it out and wondering why they didn't get the satisfaction that they were seeking.

01:29:36.600 How did that happen?

01:29:38.000 I want to get to the others as well, but let's stay on money for a minute.

01:29:40.180 How do we get to the place?

01:29:41.580 Because, you know, I'm thinking about advertisements when you watch television.

01:29:44.940 They don't usually show rich people on yachts.

01:29:48.080 They usually show families snuggling into the couch together.

01:29:51.740 So I don't think this is a situation like the magazines and the girls getting anorexia back in the 80s and the 90s or Instagram and, you know, manipulating you in a negative way today.

01:30:00.480 I feel like the media actually knows to prize relationships and the hearth and coziness and so on.

01:30:07.200 Not news media, but you know what I'm saying?

01:30:09.160 So we must be doing it.

01:30:10.600 We in the school system, in the home, we must be sending our children in America because not every country is like this.

01:30:17.560 The message that money is something to idolize.

01:30:21.520 Yeah, for sure.

01:30:22.180 I mean, as part of our culture, it's it's very easy for that to happen.

01:30:25.600 And and the big the biggest problem is that we have less and less of a culture that that creates the good values.

01:30:31.880 I mean, some people, I mean, they'll say the problem is capitalism.

01:30:34.640 The problem is the free enterprise system.

01:30:36.400 Well, capitalism is an accelerant for materialism because it's so good at creating material prosperity, to be sure.

01:30:42.420 But it's not capitalism's fault.

01:30:44.140 I mean, it's not it's not your car's fault that you drove drunk.

01:30:47.280 I mean, the problem is that you did the wrong thing.

01:30:50.380 And when we have the love in our lives, when we form the families, when we have a right relationship with our spiritual lives, when we have real friends, not just deal friends, then we're going to have the basis on which we can layer on an economic system.

01:31:03.080 When we can go out to work, when we can search for our daily bread, but it won't occupy us as the be all and end all.

01:31:09.400 Then the then our brains can't lie to us quite so much by saying there's an emptiness in me.

01:31:14.420 How am I going to fill it?

01:31:15.200 Oh, I don't know.

01:31:15.660 I'll make some more money.

01:31:16.260 I know I'll try to get more Internet followers, more, more followers on Twitter.

01:31:20.420 Then I'll finally feel good.

01:31:22.480 That's run, run, run, run, run, run and never get there.

01:31:25.680 So it's interesting.

01:31:26.120 I've talked before about the would be Hollywood stars who moved to Hollywood in hopes of becoming famous, rich, famous, glamorous, thinking this will solve.

01:31:34.980 I mean, a lot of the folks who choose that as a profession have an emptiness inside and they're seeking to fill it.

01:31:40.480 And they think that those things will fill it.

01:31:42.440 You know, that if you have the life of a Tom Cruise, everything will be great.

01:31:45.680 And this is why we see so much unhappiness from this crowd, because it doesn't fill it.

01:31:50.280 They learn the hard way.

01:31:51.200 It fills nothing.

01:31:52.680 It's something to do.

01:31:53.760 It doesn't doesn't fill the voids who make up that make up who you are.

01:31:59.080 But you're saying it's not you're absolutely right.

01:32:02.580 But it's not just the Hollywood folks.

01:32:03.880 It's it's it can be all of us.

01:32:05.960 It can be the tech giant.

01:32:06.900 It can be the news anchor.

01:32:08.160 It can be the truck driver pursuing these false idols.

01:32:12.240 It could be more money or the next promotion or just a little bit more work to make you feel a little bit better, a little bit harder working than the next guy.

01:32:19.860 It I don't know if you'd say it's pointless, but it certainly doesn't lead to happiness.

01:32:24.000 You're absolutely right.

01:32:25.000 And furthermore, it actually leads to unhappiness because you're distracting yourself from the things that matter.

01:32:30.340 So here's the right way to think about it.

01:32:32.380 Your brain wants you to chase four things.

01:32:35.300 I talked about it before.

01:32:36.340 And what you need to do is for your heart and your mind to reorient you to four different things.

01:32:43.080 So and these are the habits of people who are really, really happy.

01:32:45.620 These are the things that are completely in our control.

01:32:48.460 So the four idols are, as I mentioned before, money, power, pleasure and honor or fame or prestige.

01:32:56.200 OK, now those things are not bad, but they're really destructive when they are the end, when they are the intrinsic thing that we're seeking as opposed to being instrumental.

01:33:05.020 So money can help you help you support your family.

01:33:09.140 Power is something you can use for great good if you're a virtuous person.

01:33:12.380 Pleasure leavens, you know, heavy days for sure and can be part of it's an element of satisfaction and fame, the admiration of other people.

01:33:20.840 I mean, look how you're using the fact that you're admired and you have a lot of prestige.

01:33:24.360 You're using it to lift people up, Megan.

01:33:26.320 That's really meritorious.

01:33:27.860 But if the fame per se becomes the goal, then it becomes a huge problem.

01:33:32.600 You will be miserable.

01:33:34.660 This is what we need to do.

01:33:35.780 And this is the best thing about being human.

01:33:37.660 You don't have to just live in your lizard brain.

01:33:39.400 You don't have to live according to your impulses and your desires and your attachments.

01:33:44.380 You don't have to like my dog, Chucho.

01:33:46.400 He just lives according to what's next, right?

01:33:49.100 But I can do better than that.

01:33:50.940 I can say, aha, money, power, pleasure, honor.

01:33:53.500 Those things are manipulating me.

01:33:55.680 Here are the big four.

01:33:56.880 Here are the things that all happy people have in abundance and balance.

01:34:00.740 They have faith and family and friendship and work in which they feel like they're earning

01:34:07.920 their success and they're serving other people.

01:34:09.960 Now, faith, by that, I don't mean my faith.

01:34:11.940 I recommend it.

01:34:12.780 But the truth is, anything that gets you out of the rhythm of focusing exclusively on yourself,

01:34:18.560 my money, my job, my possession, my car, it's so boring.

01:34:23.320 You got to get the big view on things, the big wisdom on things when you're really interested

01:34:28.500 in the bigger picture.

01:34:29.500 As the Dalai Lama says, remember, joy comes when you remember that you're a one in seven

01:34:34.580 billion, is what he says.

01:34:35.780 It's not that you're insignificant.

01:34:37.060 It's just that you're part of something much bigger than yourself, which is interesting.

01:34:40.000 Family life, friendship, work that serves other people, faith, family, friends, and work.

01:34:44.440 That's your good four.

01:34:45.640 Every time you feel tempted, actually reorient yourself in this direction.

01:34:49.820 And you will find your happiness rising remarkably.

01:34:55.120 You want people to be conscious about how they approach all of this.

01:34:58.760 You should sit down and say, all right, how am I going to spend my week?

01:35:02.640 And how did I spend today?

01:35:05.360 Did I make time for my kids?

01:35:07.160 Did I make time for my friends?

01:35:09.120 Did I?

01:35:09.460 And you can't necessarily do it every day.

01:35:11.160 I understand that's how things go.

01:35:12.480 But too many days will go by and too many weeks will go by.

01:35:15.620 And then months and years of you not nurturing those things, which hurts those people and

01:35:20.840 yourself without that conscious commitment to doing so.

01:35:25.400 Yeah, absolutely.

01:35:26.140 I mean, the unexamined life, as Socrates says, is not worth living.

01:35:31.580 And I don't know if it's not worth living, but I do know that the unexamined life is only

01:35:35.960 through sheer luck going to lead you to happiness.

01:35:38.500 You know, the truth is we all can, I'm not going to say everybody can be perfectly happy,

01:35:43.340 but we all can be a lot happier by doing the work.

01:35:46.200 And doing the work means thinking about your habits.

01:35:49.080 That's the number one thing.

01:35:50.660 Habits are way more important than goals.

01:35:52.420 People are always like, I got to have good goals.

01:35:53.880 I got to have a bucket list.

01:35:54.900 Wrong.

01:35:55.560 You need good habits every single day.

01:35:58.140 And that means doing an inventory at the end of your day.

01:36:00.720 Exactly.

01:36:01.140 This is what I do every night.

01:36:02.120 And I say, did I serve my faith?

01:36:04.480 You know, did I say my prayers?

01:36:05.660 Did I do the things that I need to do to cultivate my spiritual life?

01:36:09.320 Did I spend time thinking about and serving my family, my family life?

01:36:14.100 You know, and not just my immediate family, my adult children and my wife.

01:36:18.360 And I do that for sure.

01:36:20.320 But did I do enough of that?

01:36:22.020 Did I actually serve my family in the right way?

01:36:25.800 Third is like, am I cultivating my friendships?

01:36:29.020 Like, I mean, it's like we all have really busy lives.

01:36:31.180 It's very easy, especially for people in their 50s,

01:36:33.380 to have all deal friends, no real friends.

01:36:36.160 But real friends take time.

01:36:37.480 They actually take work.

01:36:38.380 It's a reason you can't have more than, you know,

01:36:40.440 five to seven really close friends because it's just too time consuming.

01:36:44.020 But you got to have some and more than just your spouse.

01:36:47.340 It's very important.

01:36:48.600 And you got to cultivate those friendships.

01:36:49.900 And finally, you say, did my work truly serve other people?

01:36:53.360 Do I believe that I lifted people up with my work?

01:36:55.920 Now, sometimes it's easy.

01:36:57.900 I mean, people are writing to you all day long, for sure, saying,

01:37:00.960 Megan, I loved your show.

01:37:01.880 You really helped me.

01:37:02.680 I see life in a new way.

01:37:04.020 Other people might be very indirect.

01:37:05.740 If you're, let's say you're a bank deregulator or something like that.

01:37:09.000 But you can, with a little bit of serious thought,

01:37:12.300 think about how you can serve other people.

01:37:13.740 Do your inventory about your faith, family, friends,

01:37:16.900 and work at the end of the day.

01:37:17.860 And watch your satisfaction start to grow.

01:37:21.280 I'm just thinking, you know, when I was doing the Kelly file,

01:37:24.140 there were definitely a lot of people who love the show

01:37:26.120 and would send me notes like that.

01:37:28.360 But I didn't feel that sense of meaning.

01:37:31.200 I felt like I was in the outrage stoking business.

01:37:34.740 And the setup of those shows, which is really only 38 minutes of content, an hour,

01:37:38.340 because of the ads, doesn't allow time for meaningful conversations.

01:37:42.260 You know, you've got to get up and down on a segment quickly.

01:37:44.500 And it's rare that you actually get true meaning out of it.

01:37:47.240 It can happen, but it's the exception, not the rule.

01:37:49.720 It was one of my great frustrations.

01:37:51.040 You know, I knew I could be doing more and more that would make me happy.

01:37:55.900 And that would make my audience happier.

01:37:57.920 And that's one of the great meanings, purposes I found in the job that I'm doing now, right?

01:38:03.860 Like, you know, real conversations like this.

01:38:06.160 How would you and I have had this conversation in three minutes?

01:38:08.980 It would have been empty and have no calories.

01:38:12.440 And we both would have walked away a bit wanting, as would the audience have.

01:38:15.640 I think that's right.

01:38:17.640 And this is one of the great things that, you know, that we've been able to achieve in the

01:38:21.240 technological era of the podcast, for example.

01:38:23.860 So long-form conversations are something that everybody just assumed nobody had the attention

01:38:29.200 span for.

01:38:29.980 You know, that we're all like goldfish at this point.

01:38:32.500 You know, after three seconds, we're all, you know, on to the next thing.

01:38:35.400 But that's actually not true.

01:38:37.120 Podcasts are unbelievably popular precisely because they're long-form conversations that go into

01:38:41.620 depth.

01:38:42.200 You know, you and I are not talking about this like a PhD dissertation.

01:38:44.620 I mean, we're not talking about, you know, the really scientific brain science stuff that

01:38:49.700 I discuss with my class or in my research.

01:38:52.140 We're talking about why it matters and how people can use it in their lives.

01:38:55.320 And that takes some time, just like anything else.

01:38:57.800 You know, people, you can't have a three-second relationship with somebody.

01:39:00.740 You need the time to develop the relationship.

01:39:02.840 And, you know, this is a perfect example of how fulfilling it is to go deep.

01:39:07.380 Like my wife always says, you know, we've moved around.

01:39:09.400 We moved 19 times in the last 30 years because, you know, I'm not in the witness protection

01:39:13.720 program, by the way.

01:39:14.580 So, and when we move into a place, the way that we actually become comfortable quickly

01:39:21.360 is by pretending we've lived there 10 years.

01:39:23.940 So the second week we're there, we'll invite somebody to our house for dinner.

01:39:28.120 And then we have a real conversation.

01:39:29.600 And my wife calls it go deep or go home.

01:39:32.400 Right?

01:39:33.160 I mean, we're not going to talk about trivialities and dumb stuff.

01:39:35.680 It's like, I'm going to ask you about, you know, how you worship and your relationship

01:39:39.760 with your children and whether you had a, you grew up in a place that you liked and

01:39:44.280 why, and we're going to learn about each other.

01:39:47.220 I love that.

01:39:48.240 Yes.

01:39:48.580 I accept.

01:39:49.420 I'll be there.

01:39:50.360 Doug and I will come.

01:39:53.340 Boston's not that far away.

01:39:54.400 You've got to be someplace in Massachusetts.

01:39:55.720 Not that far away.

01:39:55.960 You're welcome in my, in me to Massachusetts in my, in my happy home.

01:40:00.440 Thank you so much for joining me today.

01:40:01.840 In a few days, we're going to bring you our best of 2022 show high bar.

01:40:06.540 Stay tuned for that.

01:40:07.440 And I'll talk to you soon.

01:40:11.280 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show.

01:40:13.180 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - December 26, 2022

Inspirational Interviews From 2022, Featuring Tim Scott, Dakota Meyer, Rob O'Neill, and More ｜ Ep. 460

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