The Megyn Kelly Show - Inspirational Kentucky Derby Winner, Viral Tucker-NYT Interview, and Blake-Baldoni Trial, with Emily Jashinsky ｜ Ep. 1309

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00:00:30.000 All right, full-time thoughts.

00:00:32.000 Craig, who stood out?

00:00:33.000 Brazil's lime cheesecakes started bright, didn't let up.

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00:01:00.580 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111, every weekday at New East.

00:01:12.300 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Monday.

00:01:16.280 We've got big updates for you on the war in Iran.

00:01:19.240 There's breaking news at this moment, which we'll get to in just a bit.

00:01:22.560 Plus, we're going to show you why everyone is talking about the Tucker Carlson interview

00:01:25.400 with Lulu Garcia Navarro over at the New York Times.

00:01:30.240 You may recall she and I sat down together not long ago.

00:01:33.320 Now she has sat down with Tucker, made a ton of news.

00:01:37.600 But we have an unorthodox lead story for you today.

00:01:42.060 Unorthodox because we don't do a lot of sports here on the MK Show,

00:01:44.700 but we have got to make an exception for the greatness we witnessed on Saturday at the Kentucky Derby.

00:01:50.500 I can't stop looking at the videos of it.

00:01:53.580 I'm not going to lie. I've teared up multiple times watching this horse come from behind and

00:01:59.360 win this thing. Is it just me? I'm such a sap. I do love horse racing. I grew up steps away from

00:02:06.420 Saratoga Raceway, which I absolutely adore. It's like time travel there. Nothing has changed since

00:02:11.000 1959. There is nothing quite like going up there. You don't have to be in any sort of fancy part of

00:02:16.460 the park. You could just go, get a hot dog, get a beer, and watch your horse on $2 bets all day

00:02:23.440 trust me, I've done it many times and think you're in Shangri-La. Anyway, I do enjoy it.

00:02:30.000 But this was just so moving. You know, it's like, I love all the movies. I love Seabiscuit. I love

00:02:35.560 Secretariat. And this guy's story on Saturday was kind of like a Seabiscuit. If you did not see it,

00:02:43.980 Golden Tempo, who faced 23 to 1 odds and who was literally in last place earlier in this race,

00:02:53.600 I mean last by a lot, had a stunning come-from-behind victory, narrowly beating out Renegade,

00:03:03.820 who had much better odds and who also had a bit of a slow start notwithstanding. Watch this.

00:03:10.520 Ocelli is next

00:03:12.700 and then come the two trailers

00:03:14.800 Albus and late running

00:03:16.620 Golden Tempo

00:03:18.060 so on to the back stretch they go here in the Kentucky Derby

00:03:21.180 6 speed as expected

00:03:22.380 setting the pace of 46.44

00:03:25.400 Renegade is in behind that group

00:03:27.580 he's on the rail

00:03:28.660 he's got 10 lengths to make up

00:03:30.120 has 6 speed and a non-verbaler

00:03:32.280 1-2 on the far turn

00:03:33.700 Mike Smith is so happy

00:03:35.360 they're outside

00:03:36.620 2.5 back

00:03:38.240 And then, down toward the inside, comes Emerging Market as they make their way to the top of the stretch.

00:03:44.520 Further ado is getting going on the far outside with Commandment.

00:03:48.640 They're both putting in their runs as they arrive into the final furlong.

00:03:53.180 O'Salley is also gaining ground on the far outside as they come to the last 16th of a mile.

00:03:59.800 Denon, Bourbon in front.

00:04:01.340 O'Salley, a huge long shot.

00:04:03.140 Renegade and Golden Tempo are closing two.

00:04:06.040 Here's Golden Tempo. Golden Tempo and Cherie DeVoe make history in the Kentucky Derby over Renegade in a final time of 202.27 seconds.

00:04:23.360 So great. We love a Cinderella story here in America, don't we?

00:04:28.040 It's incredible. It almost took divine intervention for this horse to pass 17 horses and win this thing.

00:04:38.920 And maybe that is indeed what was at work on Saturday, because look at Golden Tempo arriving at Churchill Downs on his face.

00:04:46.900 You see what looks very much like a cross, an actual cross.

00:04:52.340 He's got the white marking up his nose that a lot of horses have.

00:04:55.220 And then he's got the horizontal cross at the top of it.

00:04:59.660 Unbelievable.

00:05:00.920 Horizontal line making it look just like a cross, like he's been kissed by the Almighty.

00:05:06.640 It's great.

00:05:08.020 And he ran like it, too.

00:05:10.160 Now, the stunning underdog victory, it would be a great story all by itself, right?

00:05:15.100 Because this horse, they weren't sure about him.

00:05:17.780 We reported this in AM update.

00:05:19.200 He had lost his previous two.

00:05:21.360 He'd only run four races, and he had lost the most recent two.

00:05:24.680 He'd come in third, kind of fell apart toward the end and couldn't close it out.

00:05:29.900 So you can understand why the odds were 23 to 1 against him.

00:05:32.620 They were like, eh, I can't do it.

00:05:34.480 You know, nice horse, but no.

00:05:36.800 So no one was expecting great things from him, or at least almost no one.

00:05:41.280 But that alone would be a stunning underdog story.

00:05:43.700 We love those stories.

00:05:45.100 But the more you dig in on golden tempo, the better it gets.

00:05:48.240 because you heard the announcer mention there a woman. 0.99

00:05:52.660 Her name is Cherie DeVoe. 0.77

00:05:54.700 You know, Golden Tempo and Cherie DeVoe.

00:05:57.300 We're showing her petting Golden Tempo here for the listening audience.

00:06:00.220 It's great because other than the day of the Derby,

00:06:02.500 she's always in her sweatshirts and her, you know, jeans.

00:06:05.640 She's a horse trainer, but she's not looking to put on any airs for us 0.80

00:06:08.900 now that she's becoming a national star.

00:06:11.740 But Cherie DeVoe is officially the first woman trainer 0.51

00:06:15.560 to win the Kentucky Derby.

00:06:18.240 and just the second female trainer to win any triple crown race.

00:06:23.160 And I guess you are allowed to say she won it, even though she's not a horse.

00:06:28.140 To me, it's kind of jarring.

00:06:30.200 The horse won the race, but you do say she won it, her breeders won it,

00:06:35.720 and the jockey won it.

00:06:37.080 They all won.

00:06:37.920 They all are recognized as winners on Saturday.

00:06:40.780 And here is Cherie's live reaction to the victory.

00:06:44.520 Watch. 1.00

00:06:48.240 Her legs are kicking. She's in the air. 0.98

00:06:57.360 Her daughter's squeezing her.

00:07:05.980 Oh, my gosh. You can feel the excitement.

00:07:11.940 Cherie appeared on the Today Show this morning.

00:07:13.760 the race aired on NBC and explained why she was not especially surprised by Golden Tempo's victory.

00:07:21.100 This is a look from above Saturday afternoon. Golden Tempo goes from a dead last 23 to one

00:07:29.360 odds, by the way, goes from dead last to first for folks who don't really follow horse racing.

00:07:34.640 That's pretty remarkable. But you maintain that you kind of expected that, that your horse sort

00:07:39.580 of had this all season this sort of slow start but finishes strong right so golden tempo is what

00:07:44.780 we call a deep closer so he is out the back and he just doesn't have a lot of speed but he has

00:07:50.400 a lot of stamina and towards the end of the race he does have a we call it a quick turn of foot so

00:07:55.780 he can make up a lot of ground but just in the early stages he likes to just hang out behind

00:08:00.220 and let them all do the hard work and then he can just finish up and you know beat them all at the

00:08:04.780 He likes to just hang out.

00:08:07.340 I'm sure that's tough to watch as his trainer or owner or fan.

00:08:11.940 But boy, oh boy, it wasn't tough to watch on Saturday. 0.94

00:08:14.560 And Cherie weighed in on her now viral celebration, too.

00:08:18.280 That reaction that's gotten a lot of attention over the last few days, you going just bonkers. 0.65

00:08:21.940 Love that.

00:08:22.480 Folks who, like, know you well, that's not unusual.

00:08:26.080 That's you at pretty much every race.

00:08:27.600 Yeah, no, well, it's gotten a bit tapered down as I've gotten older, but.

00:08:32.940 That's the taper down?

00:08:33.880 No, no, no. That is not the taper down. That is definitely all systems go. But, you know, if you win the Kentucky Derby, man, male, female, whatever, you should have a reaction like that.

00:08:47.280 I think that actually was her friend standing next to her who hugged her on the win.

00:08:52.240 And she posted something on her Instagram thanking that friend's employer, which I think she said was like the racing association of a particular state or maybe it was the national, for firing her friend so that her friend could come work for her and be part of the historic day and historic win on Saturday.

00:09:11.840 Such a sweet story of friendship for those two as well.

00:09:16.320 Despite being the first female trainer to win the Derby,

00:09:19.400 Cherie does not, to her credit, want to make this about her gender.

00:09:23.660 The horse racing has long been dominated by men.

00:09:27.720 It's started to change a little bit in recent years,

00:09:30.340 but you made history on Saturday.

00:09:32.960 Do you consider yourself a trailblazer?

00:09:35.640 Is that something that...

00:09:36.940 No, I consider myself a horse trainer, 0.98

00:09:39.460 and I just happen to be a female.

00:09:42.000 But, you know, it's quite an honor to be the first female trainer to win a Kentucky Derby.

00:09:50.340 Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. Great answer.

00:09:53.460 She posted this picture of Golden Tempo this morning on X with the caption, being a celebrity is hard work.

00:09:58.820 Some well-deserved rest here for the listening audience.

00:10:00.940 It's the horse wearing like a horse blanket around him and completely snuggled into a bed of hay.

00:10:08.540 So, you know, they say horses sleep standing up, but they can sleep lying down too.

00:10:12.680 And this horse looks like he's enjoying his rest on his side.

00:10:17.020 You know, you almost expect somebody to be reading him a story right next to him.

00:10:21.820 And here's one they should read to him.

00:10:24.200 It's about a winning jockey named Jose Ortiz, a Christian family man who frequently posts

00:10:32.120 Philippians 4.13 on social media.

00:10:34.540 Quote, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

00:10:40.360 Jose came up short his first 10 times competing in the Derby before finally winning gold on

00:10:48.080 Saturday.

00:10:49.200 Look at this tweet from May 23rd, 2020.

00:10:52.460 It's a picture of Churchill Downs where they run the Kentucky Derby.

00:10:55.640 Jose writing, quote, one day.

00:10:58.760 Some dreams really do come true.

00:11:01.460 Here's Jose getting emotional after his victory.

00:11:03.780 Watch.

00:11:04.540 I'm just blessed that I get to ride almost every year, but get to win, it's just special.

00:11:12.420 To have my mom and my dad here today, it's very special.

00:11:19.640 I just wish my grandpa was here, but I know looking for him, I'm just very happy that I get my goal,

00:11:29.140 my life dream goal achieve and you know it's it's just amazing experience i can't wait to see my

00:11:39.540 family and celebrate oh so sweet so sweet he's from puerto rico thank god his parents were there

00:11:48.860 to see it imagine what that feels like for them too right and especially considering that the

00:11:54.920 jockey of the second place renegade was Jose's brother. I read Ortiz. Look at this photo. This

00:12:03.080 is the best photo of the two brothers together. This is put out by the Derby. And for the listening

00:12:08.200 audience, what you see is the two brothers on the horses. This is like moments after they crossed

00:12:13.540 the finish line, their horses neck and neck, and the two brothers each with their arms outstretched,

00:12:19.660 touching each other's arms. I was like, I'm tearing up just looking at that. That is so

00:12:23.580 beautiful. Good for them. What a moment that must be. I'm sure the life of a horse jockey

00:12:29.040 is not easy. I'm sure it's actually quite physically grueling. And if you watch the

00:12:34.360 Derby, you saw just moments before they went into the gates, Great White, who was a long shot,

00:12:41.900 a beautiful horse, reared up on his hind legs and through his jockey who fell. And then Great White

00:12:49.540 almost fell right on that jockey. Thank God the horse did fall, but both he and the jockey were

00:12:55.180 okay. And then he was rearing up. He was clearly like in a mood and did not want to get into that

00:12:59.780 gate and he ultimately scratched. So yeah, I mean, I think the life of a jockey is challenging in a

00:13:04.640 lot of ways. And these two brothers went through it together, obviously with the support of their

00:13:09.140 parents. And what a day for both of them and for their parents too to watch it. Now, Irad ran on

00:13:19.520 Renegade. And he wrote on Renegade. And Renegade's owner, Mike Repole, had reason perhaps to be

00:13:26.060 disappointed on Saturday. After all, his horse was indeed one of the favorites. But Renegade did not

00:13:32.120 win. He came in second. So what was Mike's message as he got a hold of Renegade's jockey,

00:13:40.060 Irad? Considering Irad, you know, had the second place finish. And let's take a listen to what

00:13:47.920 Mike said to him. A little warning on the explicit nature of this great conversation.

00:14:17.920 animal. If you're ever going to fucking lose, you lose to your brother. All right. Let's go 1.00

00:14:24.760 beat him up. I'm so proud of you. That was a fucking unbelievable. I'm glad to be second 0.94

00:14:33.640 Oh, so great. I love him too. If you couldn't totally hear it, um, he was saying,

00:14:52.420 unbelievable. You're the best writer. So effing proud. He says, if you're ever going to fucking

00:15:00.720 lose, you'll lose to your brother. I love this guy. He's straight out of central casting. 1.00

00:15:06.240 You did everything right, everything right the whole time. He's hugging him. He's kissing him.

00:15:10.720 He's hugging him again. What a sweet guy, at least based on that one clip. I don't know

00:15:15.020 anything about him, but I love how he handled coming in second and getting that jockey in

00:15:21.240 front of him. Wow. That's great. If you ever get a fucking lose, you lose to your brother. That's

00:15:25.040 great. Love the New York accent. Isn't it so great? All the drama, all the history paying off

00:15:31.380 big time for NBC, the Derby setting a record, uh, viewership. In fact, I was riding in my car with

00:15:37.660 my kids the next day and, and Thatcher who's 12 said, mom, what do you, how many people do you

00:15:43.300 think watched the Derby? And I said, I, you know, I would guess about 20 million and I'm happy to

00:15:50.180 tell you, I nailed it. They did set a record. It was an average audience of 19.6 million across NBC

00:15:57.600 and streamer Peacock, which NBC owns, with a live audience peak of 24.4 million viewers,

00:16:06.420 probably for that last furlong as Golden Tempo brought it home out of nowhere. It's so great

00:16:11.960 when you hear the announcer realize, holy shit, two new horses are about to come across the finish 0.98

00:16:17.160 line and past the ones I've been announcing on. And by the way, shout out to the announcers, 0.94

00:16:21.460 because like, how hard is that? Because for the rest of us, I think you see the horses start and

00:16:28.280 it's such a clump of color and horse. You have no, I have no idea what I'm seeing. Thank God for the

00:16:34.260 announcer's ability to call out the names, to say them quickly, to, I mean, second by second,

00:16:40.080 update you on who's just a nose ahead and who's not, and who's making a run for it and so on.

00:16:45.180 In any event, no one, including the wonderful announcer, saw Golden Tempo coming.

00:16:50.100 I mean, he was last.

00:16:51.400 It was like kind of wrote him off, and then he said, how do you like me now?

00:16:56.340 His winning time was an impressive 2 minutes, 0.02, 0.27 seconds on Saturday.

00:17:04.880 2.02, 0.27.

00:17:08.320 Not quite, though, not quite as impressive as the GOAT of horse racing.

00:17:13.840 I speak, of course, of Big Red, or Secretariat, as he was officially known.

00:17:20.240 His record of 159.40, which is actually quite a bit faster, believe it or not.

00:17:27.920 Those two seconds are something like the equivalent of 17 furlongs or horse lengths longer.

00:17:36.400 So, I mean, had Secretariat run that same race, even with this horse in it, Secretariat would have crushed him.

00:17:45.040 It's kind of crazy to think about how amazing Secretariat was.

00:17:48.380 So his record, which was set in 1973 at the Derby, still stands a remarkable achievement.

00:17:55.000 According to Sporting News, 19 of the 20 qualifying Kentucky Derby horses this year can trace part of their lineage to Secretariat.

00:18:06.400 including Golden Tempo.

00:18:09.660 How cool is that?

00:18:11.160 That horse, I mean, he had special sauce,

00:18:14.120 like there's something magical about him.

00:18:17.000 And in case you have forgotten

00:18:18.360 just how majestic and impressive Secretary it was,

00:18:24.120 here he is in the 1973 Belmont Stakes.

00:18:28.960 Behind them, then it's twice a prince,

00:18:31.380 and the trailer is private smiles as they go by the turn.

00:18:35.420 Those two together, Sham on the outside, Sham getting ahead in front as they move around the turn with Secretariat second.

00:18:42.160 Then there's a large gap, making eight lengths back to Mike Gallant in third and Vice of Prince fourth, and Private Smiles is still a trailer.

00:18:50.280 They're on the backstretch. It's almost a match race now. Secretariat's on the inside, by ahead, Sham is on the outside.

00:18:57.380 They've opened 10 lengths on Mike Gallant, who is third by Ed, with fight to Prince fourth.

00:19:03.380 Then it's another 8 lengths back to Private Smiles, who is trailing the field.

00:19:07.380 They continue down the back stretch.

00:19:09.380 In fact, Secretariat not taking the lead.

00:19:11.380 He's got it by about a length and a half.

00:19:14.380 Still Sam, 10 lengths back, Mike Gallant, fight to Prince.

00:19:18.380 They're moving on the turn now.

00:19:20.380 For the turn in Secretariat.

00:19:22.380 It looks like he's opening.

00:19:23.380 The lead is increasing.

00:19:25.380 They get three, three and a half.

00:19:27.600 He's moving into the turn.

00:19:29.340 Secretariat holding on to the alarm and speed.

00:19:31.940 Sam is second and then it's a long way back to Mike Allen's flight support.

00:19:36.140 They're on the turn and Secretariat is blazing along.

00:19:39.580 The first three quarters of a mile in 109 at 4.5.

00:19:43.040 Secretariat is frightening now.

00:19:44.760 He is moving like a tremendous between.

00:19:48.460 Secretariat by 12.

00:19:50.780 Secretariat by 14 lengths on the turn.

00:19:53.780 Chair is dropping back. It looks like they'll catch him today.

00:19:57.640 And Pye Ballard and Pye Ballard are both coming up to him now.

00:20:00.860 The Secretary is all alone.

00:20:02.800 He's out there almost a 60-half of a mile away from the rest of the horses.

00:20:07.060 Secretary is in a position that seems impossible to catch.

00:20:10.820 He's into the stretch.

00:20:12.180 Secretary leads his field by 18 lengths.

00:20:15.040 And now Pye Ballard is open second.

00:20:17.420 Pye Ballard is in the third.

00:20:19.800 They're in the stretch.

00:20:20.600 Oh, my gosh.

00:20:47.760 It makes me tear up to see those moments, those great sports moments, whether it's Miracle on Ice or the hockey players this time around in the Olympics, male and female, the U.S. teams, or the horse coming from behind.

00:21:01.820 And that was a, yeah, match races.

00:21:04.140 They were saying that that whole story was documented so beautifully in the movie Secretariat starring Diane Lane.

00:21:09.500 And just a fun fact for you. In the movie Secretariat and in real life, there was a famous moment as Secretariat was about to be born. And they knew that this was a good pairing of, you know, the mayor and the stud.

00:21:28.140 and it was from two very respected breeders

00:21:31.680 and they would meet,

00:21:35.200 Denny Phipps of Phipps Stables

00:21:37.960 would meet with this other breeder,

00:21:39.980 forgive me, I can't remember his name,

00:21:41.900 and they would flip a coin

00:21:43.940 and whoever won the coin toss

00:21:45.960 would get the pick on the horse they wanted.

00:21:50.360 And the Phipps family had secretariat.

00:21:55.020 They had secretariat

00:21:56.600 and they well here's what happened we pulled it from from the movie um so you can see what went

00:22:03.800 down in the coin toss all those years ago please don't take offense miss chenery but

00:22:07.920 your father almost never won our coin tosses and i do hope you've inherited his luck

00:22:14.240 all right we're all here now mr philps has the call his owner of bull ruler now the winner has

00:22:22.200 the choice of the offspring of mr chenry's marriage hasty matelda or something royal

00:22:27.760 are we all in agreement here all right here we go talk ed

00:22:33.660 eds it is i'll go with hasty matelda miss chenry okay so she took something royal

00:22:51.680 which led to Secretariat, and they won everything because now she had Secretariat and the Phipps

00:22:57.900 family lost out on that. And the Phipps family, however, did not stay losing because they co-own

00:23:05.420 this beautiful horse here, Golden Tempo. So anyway, Secretariat's links to racing go on

00:23:11.720 for very good reason. He's a historic horse. So are his offspring, so many of them. And Golden

00:23:17.620 tempo. I don't think we've seen the last of him. Will he win the triple crown? That would be hugely

00:23:23.420 exciting. But at this point, who cares? Seeing this horse come from behind, bring the W to the

00:23:28.840 first female trainer. Yes, to the Phipps family who co-owns him with St. Elias Horse Stables.

00:23:36.440 And Jose, to bring it home for Jose and the brother with the arms. And it's like all so good.

00:23:42.460 There's so little good news. That's why we had to start the show with this amazing story.

00:23:47.040 Bringing in now for Reaction, Emily Jashinsky.

00:23:50.940 She is host of After Party on the MK Media Podcast Network, and she's host of the MK Wrap-Up Show on Sirius XM.

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00:24:59.080 Emily, it's such a great story, isn't it?

00:25:01.500 You're killing me. You're killing me.

00:25:03.860 You just did 25 minutes on horses.

00:25:07.080 We watched Secretariat clips.

00:25:09.220 We were watching highlights.

00:25:10.940 It was such a journey, Megan.

00:25:13.300 It was, I had no idea.

00:25:14.840 Megan Kelly horse girl, such a journey this morning.

00:25:17.920 Yeah, I am.

00:25:19.840 I have, I'm a sucker for any of those, like, you know, come from behind victories, but

00:25:23.880 I do love horse racing.

00:25:25.760 I do.

00:25:26.140 I know it's controversial with some because sometimes they mistreat the horses, but like

00:25:30.260 I know some of these, but I know some in the Phipps family, I've known them and they're

00:25:33.920 wonderful people.

00:25:35.100 And most of them, I think dearly, dearly love the horses.

00:25:38.260 And it's like, there is nothing like watching a horse race.

00:25:43.020 I love the whole thing.

00:25:44.320 You go for the day.

00:25:46.080 You can either do it the fancy way, like I've been to the Derby a couple of times, which

00:25:49.200 is super fun.

00:25:50.520 You wear your most outrageous colors.

00:25:53.020 You sip those mint juleps, which are awesome.

00:25:56.320 Or you can do it lower brow.

00:25:57.860 You can buy the cheap ticket in and do the $2 bets here and there, which is so fun.

00:26:03.200 If you see your horse come in, win place or show, it doesn't matter.

00:26:07.660 It's so thrilling. It's like, I don't know what it is. I guess I'm just like a gambler deep at

00:26:13.300 heart, even though I almost never gambler, but it is so exciting. Do you ever do it? Have you ever

00:26:17.720 done it? No, I haven't. But you know, I love any moment in sports where the announcers are so good

00:26:24.420 at channeling the excitement of the moment. And I feel like that's what we got out of the derby

00:26:28.900 this year. Like that was actually really, really incredible. There's an art to doing that. And it

00:26:32.860 was totally nailed. Yes. I remember one time years ago, I was with some friends and it was,

00:26:39.120 I think I was in college. I had no money. We went to, I think it was Belmont Stakes. And

00:26:44.020 it was, trying to think about exactly how it went down, but I know we ran out of money by the end

00:26:50.440 of the day. And then our last race there, and back when I was in college and law school,

00:26:55.440 I was an avid aerobics instructor. It's actually how I helped put myself through college and law

00:27:00.280 school. I taught at like 15 to 20 classes a week. It was insane. And, um, I did aerobics and I did

00:27:05.640 step aerobics. I was in the step Reebok demo team back in my day, Emily, and a different body. Um,

00:27:12.000 in any event, the last race of the day had a horse named aerobic stepper. I was like, oh my God,

00:27:19.780 I've got to bet on that horse. And it's like this horse golden tempo. It had terrible odds.

00:27:23.900 we all scrounged none of us had any money left we came up with 20 bucks and we bet it on aerobic

00:27:30.700 stepper and damn it the horse won one we had won a few hundred bucks we were in like seventh heaven

00:27:38.620 we thought we were rich it paid for our whole evening like the group of us i don't know it's 0.97

00:27:44.180 like this small turn of fortunes and you feel prescient when you see your horse go across

00:27:48.820 first and you feel like a winner, even if, even if your life is, I'm like pushing people to go

00:27:54.840 to the gambling track today, but like, even if your life isn't going that well, your horse wins,

00:27:59.640 people can probably relate to this is probably why they love regular sports that I don't watch

00:28:02.820 that much. Like your team wins in basketball or baseball or football and you, you feel like a

00:28:08.780 winner, you know, it's true joy. It's joy for the team that you love or the horse that you believe

00:28:13.960 in. And it's joy for you because you feel smart. You feel prescient, you know, like you backed

00:28:18.940 the winning horse. That's a saying even outside of racehorsing, you know what I mean? Like

00:28:23.140 horse racing. So I love it. It's a feel good story and America needs one of those right now.

00:28:28.600 I feel good story. That's the story about aerobic stepper and Megyn Kelly. That's the movie that I

00:28:33.580 would watch. That hasn't been made into a movie yet. The cinematic quality of that, especially

00:28:40.020 as you just told it. Astounding. Wait, I have to tell you one more story about a racetrack,

00:28:46.540 which is just so funny. I went to the Kentucky Derby years ago and there was a fair amount of

00:28:53.700 conservatives show up at that thing. And there was this one sweet woman. This is many, many years 1.00

00:28:59.980 ago. And this woman said, can we have our picture taken? And I said, sure. So I put, and she's much

00:29:06.440 shoulder. So I put my arm around her and she said, darling, would you do me a favor? I'm like, sure.

00:29:12.700 She goes, would you mind just reaching behind my neck and just pulling the skin tight

00:29:17.040 for the picture? I'm like, sure. I got you. So I pulled it. No way. She loved, she was with her

00:29:28.060 sister too. They both laughed. They thought it was hilarious that she does this. I'm like, you know,

00:29:31.860 you can pay a doctor to do this to you just one day and it will stay that way

00:29:35.900 for many years. Like asking. Yeah. You know, I like, cause I, you seem really nice,

00:29:42.480 but I can't follow you around forever. She was like, she didn't care. She had no humiliation

00:29:47.040 over it. No embarrassment whatsoever. She just want to look good for the picture. And I I've

00:29:50.120 never forgot that dear sweet lady. She was great. She and her sister. So that was my other, uh,

00:29:55.360 horse race story. And I am going, I'm going again this summer. I plan to, to Saratoga.

00:30:01.200 we're making our plans now. It's just such an enjoyable thing. So anyway, to the listening

00:30:04.760 audience, you guys let me know, do you like going to the horse races? Will you be going this summer?

00:30:09.480 And what did you think of the wonderful golden tempo? Cherie and Jose, God bless them. Maybe I

00:30:16.860 can get one of those folks to come on this show and talk about it since I'm now America's horse

00:30:20.580 racing aficionado expert, self-declared, 2026. It's been decided. Okay. Oh, one other thing I'll

00:30:29.320 tell you, uh, the family now for years, what we do in my family, you're not going to be surprised

00:30:33.240 because the listening audience knows I love costumes. Um, we have a box of costumes for

00:30:38.940 the Kentucky Derby and I have ascots for all of the men in my family and like the sort of bowler

00:30:45.960 hats and, uh, like a, a bright jacket. And, uh, for my daughter and for me and for any female

00:30:52.760 guests we may have over, I have super, super bright Derby dresses and fascinators for everybody.

00:30:59.320 So if you just happen to swing by, I will put you in one of these dresses and a fascinator.

00:31:03.600 And Doug makes mint juleps, real ones for the adults, and mocktails for the kids.

00:31:09.640 And we all place our bets.

00:31:11.220 Not one of us bet on golden tempo, even though we did bet long shots as well, but we did not pick golden.

00:31:16.800 And it was thrilling.

00:31:18.920 So fun to watch the race.

00:31:20.200 We sort of freeze it on the Peacock or NBC coverage, and then when we're all ready, we come down and we watch that 20 minutes.

00:31:27.460 And then it's such a fun tradition.

00:31:28.860 Anyway, you got to make your own fun in this world.

00:31:31.680 Okay.

00:31:32.300 And speaking of fun, let's talk about what's happening in Iran. 0.70

00:31:36.280 Perfect transition. 0.51

00:31:37.780 Now you see why I wanted to begin with something more fun.

00:31:43.500 That changed my mind.

00:31:44.580 We'll get to Iran in a little bit.

00:31:46.140 Let's start with what happened with Tucker because that's actually really interesting.

00:31:48.720 And then we'll get into what's happening with the actual war.

00:31:51.420 So Tucker sat down with Lulu, who I actually really grew to like over that interview that

00:31:55.780 I did with her at the New York Times.

00:31:57.240 I really think she tries to be fair. She's obviously a liberal and a New York Times journalist, but I like her. And she, I thought, did a very nice job with Tucker. Was it perfect? No, there were a couple of low moments where she's really, really focused on Nick Fuentes. But overall, I thought she gave him a fair shot. And Tucker handled himself, of course, very, very well and was very deft. And anything, any sort of would-be trap she was laying, he saw from a mile away.

00:32:24.980 And it made for a very interesting, robust exchange between the two of them.

00:32:29.660 There was the obsession with Nick Fuentes, but Tucker, his answer on it was very, very

00:32:35.000 good.

00:32:35.780 Nick Fuentes, of course, for listening audience is like, they call him far right.

00:32:40.820 I disagree.

00:32:41.880 I don't think he's far right.

00:32:43.500 I don't know what he is.

00:32:44.520 He's non-ideological, really.

00:32:47.300 He's like more of a black-pilled young guy who hates both parties, says very controversial 0.97

00:32:52.720 things about Jews and blacks and women. But outside of that says a lot of things that, 0.95

00:33:00.940 you know, have turned out to be prescient, unlike politics. So he's got a bit of a following

00:33:06.260 because he's got a good track record on his political predictions and insights, but he's

00:33:11.040 incendiary in his discussions about any group of color or vulnerable, marginalized, whatever

00:33:17.140 group. So anyway, he's become more and more popular over the past five years with a certain

00:33:23.660 segment of especially young, disaffected men. And it's all the left's fault. It's all the left's

00:33:29.700 fault who have told these young men that race is really what matters. It determines everything.

00:33:34.160 It's the number one thing about you that matters. And by the way, if yours happens to be white 0.89

00:33:38.560 and you're a male on top of it, fuck you. You suck. So the left has driven people to, 1.00

00:33:46.060 you know a commentator like this um they have only themselves to blame but the reporters at

00:33:52.500 the new york times would never acknowledge that um by the way he says he's voting for gavin newsom

00:33:57.400 he says that because he doesn't like the fact that jd vance if he's the nominee

00:34:01.140 is married to i won't repeat the ethnic slur about usha but it's an ethnic slur about him

00:34:07.080 being married to a brown indian woman and uh so i don't this doesn't sound far right to me but

00:34:12.020 whatever. Here's how that exchange went between. Fuentes also thinks Gavin Newsom is hot and good

00:34:18.680 looking and has the, yeah, he's got the look. All right. I have to say on the sliding scale

00:34:26.500 of politicians, he is hot. It's like Chief Justice John Roberts on the sliding scale of

00:34:32.280 judges is he's hot. But like, then you put them out in the real world and things change.

00:34:39.600 And then, of course, Gavin Newsom is like, you know, one of those like, I don't know, like a real housewife where they might look fine while they're just sitting there in the screen grab.

00:34:47.460 But then you hear them talk and you're like, oh, my God, never mind.

00:34:51.480 OK, here's Tucker and Lulu on Nick Fuentes 17.

00:34:55.860 Fuentes himself is a distraction from the conversations that matter because power is displayed through the structure of the economic system globally and per country.

00:35:07.360 and in the use of force so it's the economic program and the foreign policy program are what

00:35:14.400 matters in every government from the beginning of time those are the two questions on which

00:35:20.460 there's a bipartisan consensus in washington between republicans and democrats that were we

00:35:24.880 should do this thing the public rejects that thing on both categories they reject the economics

00:35:30.820 that are a consensus choice in washington and they reject the foreign policy this consensus

00:35:34.940 choice in Washington. And so Washington's response, Wall Street's response as well,

00:35:38.640 is to be like, let's have a race war and you guys can like argue over blacks or whites or

00:35:43.380 whether JD is married to an Indian woman, like what? And so Fuentes is incredibly useful for

00:35:48.420 people with actual power to divert the conversation to something that is both irrelevant and divisive

00:35:54.440 because it's a divide and conquer strategy. And my strong view gained over 35 years of watching

00:36:00.960 carefully and being involved is that that's come to its end. Okay. So smart, such an important

00:36:09.400 reframing of some of the things that we've been discussing lately, Emily. And I mean, I think this

00:36:15.640 is why people who don't like Tucker find him so threatening, because he's such an effective

00:36:23.080 messenger, and he can redefine an entire debate like he did right there. Yeah, and it's a really

00:36:28.800 deep point that he's making. Neil Postman in the mid 80s was kind of hysterical over Ronald Reagan

00:36:34.980 being the president as an actor. And he saw this as the television-based epistemology overtaking

00:36:40.400 the print-based epistemology. And in Amusing Ourselves to Death, he wrote about how inferior

00:36:45.400 the television-based epistemology of politics and culture was to a sort of political epistemology

00:36:51.140 based on print. And there's, I think, merit to that. But what we're in now is like the algorithmic

00:36:55.800 social media based epistemology. And I think this is kind of what Tucker is getting at in that

00:36:59.980 Fuentes for many people is a meme. They don't sit around and watch like long episodes. He definitely

00:37:07.260 has like a dedicated audience on his streams, which, man, I think you're right. The left drove

00:37:12.020 so many young men, especially straight into his arms and empowered him with their rhetoric that

00:37:19.220 was often wildly over the top, inaccurate, wrong, and bigoted against men in so many cases, just did

00:37:24.620 that for like the last 15 years and then don't want to have to reckon with the consequences. But

00:37:28.260 more so, he's, for many, many people, a meme. They're laughing at him. They're not laughing

00:37:33.620 with him. They don't really know much about him. They don't have much context for him.

00:37:37.880 They just see funny clips that they were told were, you know, very naughty. And when you're

00:37:43.340 a teenager, you're in your early 20s, and people are telling you, you can't laugh at these things.

00:37:47.900 The kid's got comedic timing, and he says awful things that other people won't. And it's a meme.

00:37:53.120 It's a meme. And Tucker is correct. It's a meme that has been used as a distraction from some of these structural problems that people would rather not talk about because it implicates them. It implicates the worldviews that they have perpetuated. It implicates the worldviews that they still hold dear about the ickiness of populism and the hoi polloi being wrong about their own fates.

00:38:15.220 And so there, it's just much easier to fight this war with the proxy of Nick Fuentes than it is to actually deal with what's happening in the public.

00:38:27.000 Because if you look at it, and Tucker believes that there's basically a uniparty, you know, that the left and the right on so many of the biggest issues are indistinguishable.

00:38:37.140 And he's not wrong about that.

00:38:39.200 On some of the smaller issues, though, there are big differences.

00:38:41.980 Like not smaller, but like smaller than like the economy, which obviously is the number one thing that's motivating most people.

00:38:48.320 But he thinks on the economy and on war, never ending war, and in particular war on behalf of Israel, the parties are nearly indistinguishable.

00:38:57.900 and that both sides would much rather see us arguing over Nick Fuentes and his views on race

00:39:05.060 than on those two things on which there's not that big a difference between the two of them.

00:39:10.580 They all vote, both sides, to line their own pockets. They all seem rather corrupt. 0.95

00:39:16.540 And they all love war. They get paid by, they get put into office by the military-industrial complex

00:39:22.660 and AIPAC. And those are effectively their masters, which is why we continue to see war

00:39:28.360 after war after war, even from a guy like Trump who ran on not doing this.

00:39:32.520 There's another great moment in the interview where I think Lulu asks Tucker, like, why

00:39:37.420 then are people so obsessed with Fuentes? I'm paraphrasing it. I don't have the exact

00:39:41.460 verbatim language, but he responds, well, because it's easier to call someone, or maybe they were

00:39:46.420 talking about anti-Semitism, but I think it applies to Fuentes as well. It's like, it's easier

00:39:50.060 to call somebody a name and to call them a bigot because it immediately stigmatizes and ostracizes

00:39:55.800 them than it is to actually grapple with an argument they're advancing. And so if you're

00:40:00.760 calling somebody that word, you're calling somebody, you're making this really serious

00:40:05.380 charge, you actually should be able to back it up. But so often it's just deployed in a way that

00:40:11.420 shuts a person down, shuts a person up, stigmatizes them, ostracizes them. And so that is the way to

00:40:16.740 get them out of the argument. And you can basically discredit an entire opposition movement to war

00:40:24.040 if you say anybody who is flirting with this is you, this is what happened with Fuentes. We were

00:40:28.880 playing six degrees of Kevin Bacon with Fuentes every day last fall. Like if somebody had ever

00:40:33.560 watched a Fuentes clip and laughed at it, oh my goodness, you hate Israel. It's just happening

00:40:39.260 constantly. And Tucker's right. He points it out in the interview. He's like, well, it's much easier

00:40:43.260 to default to the label and to the name than it is to deal with the argument. It's just a shortcut.

00:40:47.600 It's a cheat code. If you apply the name and the label, then you just are automatically kind of

00:40:52.140 disqualifying them with a segment of the public. And it's really, I mean, it's a terrible way to

00:40:57.400 do politics in the United States, obviously. Now you have a huge section of the country that's

00:41:02.060 against this war. You can't really do that. And so it's falling apart.

00:41:07.340 Yeah. I went on Tucker's show months ago and said basically what I just said about Nick Fuentes,

00:41:12.740 which is he's he has a lot of sharp insights and he's a smart political talker, but he says

00:41:19.840 absolutely vile things about blacks, about Indians, about Jews, about women. And so, you know, you've

00:41:26.400 got to like putting that to the side. He's got some smart commentary, but, you know, you can't

00:41:31.620 like obviously you can't talk about Nick Fuentes without talking about that stuff, which I did.

00:41:35.280 And my newfound detractors on the right, on the neocon pro-Israel right, clipped only the one part where I said the nice, like, whatever, what his value was, and circulated it all over X, all over X.

00:41:52.140 Like, that was the alpha and omega of my own thoughts about Nick Fontes. 1.00

00:41:55.240 And fuck those people. 1.00

00:41:56.280 Fuck them, the dishonest, disgusting people who do that shit. 1.00

00:41:59.880 You know, I just, whatever. 1.00

00:42:01.980 You got to live with it because the Internet's going to do what it's going to do.

00:42:05.400 But some of them are my former friends.

00:42:07.500 Some of them are people who actually used to come in the show.

00:42:10.540 And it's just it's not good for anybody.

00:42:12.780 And I know, Megan, like you have really thick skin.

00:42:15.180 But I also just feel like we have to pause and realize what a horrible thing that is to do to another human being, especially another human being who is like put their own skin on the line to stand up, as you have done many times in some of these campus cases.

00:42:29.220 and to like stand up against legitimate anti-Semitism.

00:42:32.960 It is just, I don't want to get numb

00:42:34.560 to what a horrible thing that is for one human being

00:42:37.140 to do to another human being,

00:42:38.400 because in the United States,

00:42:39.600 we have worked really hard to stigmatize bigotry.

00:42:42.060 We have more people from different parts of the world,

00:42:43.880 different backgrounds living in one country

00:42:46.300 than I think has ever happened in human history

00:42:48.620 in such close proximity.

00:42:50.360 And it is an incredible accomplishment

00:42:51.780 of the American people that we have done this

00:42:54.360 for the length of time that we've done it

00:42:55.840 with the level of relative harmony.

00:42:57.640 Like, yes, things feel tense and painful right now, but what we do in the United States is actually amazing. And it's partially because bigotry, genuine bigotry has been highly stigmatized. And so to apply that label to somebody who doesn't actually believe those things and to just, again, put the label on them, not argue about whether you're enabling it or just like have a substantive argument, fine.

00:43:17.880 But to just toss the label around is truly disgusting on top of just not being constructive.

00:43:23.740 It poisons the dialogue.

00:43:24.960 It makes it impossible for people to talk to each other.

00:43:27.160 And on a human level, it is really sad.

00:43:29.940 And if you're doing that without thinking about it because you're caught up in the algorithm and you're not pausing 10 minutes before you do it, that's even more shameful.

00:43:37.680 Like, just take a break.

00:43:38.860 Just take a break.

00:43:39.640 And I know it sounds like quaint at this point because you've gone through so much of it.

00:43:43.100 And many people have.

00:43:44.460 But it's just it's such a bad thing to do.

00:43:47.880 Yeah. No, I mean, it is, you know, it's unfortunate because it's not working out for the people who did it. You know, it's like people who just jumped on the anti-Semitism train. They've dismissed Tucker as one. And I mean, like the notion of calling me an anti-Semite is so absurd that the listening audience to the show knows what a lie that is. But like the outside people, they don't know. They don't. Not everybody listens to the show on a daily basis or enough to know.

00:44:10.640 But you're seeing it now, right?

00:44:12.120 You're seeing it like the people who have made that their calling card to just look

00:44:16.080 at all conservatives with doubts about Israel and say, you're an anti-Semite.

00:44:19.980 They're failing.

00:44:21.180 Their shows are failing.

00:44:22.620 And I do think it's in part why we saw what I consider to be very sad news about the Daily

00:44:27.120 Wire on Friday, where they had mass layoffs.

00:44:31.780 And this is a company that for most of its existence has been near and dear to my heart.

00:44:36.240 And I still have a lot of friends over there and I am rooting for them.

00:44:38.960 And even though I've had this massive blow up with Ben Shapiro that he initiated, I have

00:44:44.860 never been anything but good to Ben.

00:44:46.280 And we were dealing with each other behind the scenes in a very lovely manner before

00:44:49.900 he attacked me publicly at the turning point thing in December.

00:44:53.500 I'm rooting for Ben too.

00:44:54.580 I don't want to see Ben suffer.

00:44:55.700 I don't want to see his company implode, but it certainly seems to be.

00:44:59.520 There are reports of 50 to 60% of the staff having been laid off.

00:45:04.260 They officially denied it.

00:45:06.180 But I think the problem with The Daily Wire is multifaceted.

00:45:09.340 They invested tens of millions of dollars in this dragon movie, which they kept behind a paywall.

00:45:16.960 It had no chance of paying off for them.

00:45:18.840 It was just absolutely foolhardy.

00:45:21.600 They expanded into, they sort of like, you know, they had mission creep, Emily.

00:45:26.480 Now they're selling razors and they're selling chocolate and they're selling, I don't know, all sorts of different products as opposed to just like doing the news.

00:45:33.980 you know and they started to do all this like children's programming and um movie making and

00:45:39.980 it's like i think if they just stuck to their core mission of doing the news in a more fair

00:45:45.180 and balanced way and hadn't gotten hung up on all these other projects and yes indeed the israel

00:45:51.600 first nature of ben's coverage in particular i think they'd be fine i don't i'm i think you know

00:45:57.720 in the off election years it's always a little slower for you know any podcast so i'm sure that's

00:46:03.800 a factor, but I think they would have withstood that no problem had these other factors not been

00:46:09.200 there. I just think in general, the right doesn't take well to name-calling, culling of the movement,

00:46:17.320 anyone declaring themselves like the godfather of it who will decide who gets to stay and who

00:46:23.360 gets to go. According to Ben Shapiro, Steve Bannon had to go as of December. So did Tucker.

00:46:29.320 I got lumped in there as an alleged coward

00:46:31.800 in the world of Ben Shapiro

00:46:33.100 for not being outspoken on his favorite issues.

00:46:36.320 Barry Weiss doubled down with her free press.

00:46:38.880 None of these people is doing well.

00:46:40.340 The free press, not doing well.

00:46:42.280 CBS is having the lowest ratings it's had

00:46:44.820 in between 25 and 100 years.

00:46:48.260 I don't even know if it hasn't been around for 100 years,

00:46:50.320 like in a century though, basically,

00:46:51.980 since it's a formation under her leadership.

00:46:54.580 And she's pushing all these messages

00:46:56.200 on her evening newscast and her morning newscast.

00:46:58.160 the people are rejecting it they're rejecting it emily yeah i think that's right and i mean at the

00:47:03.340 daily wire one way that you can tell i think people are rejecting it is that to their credit

00:47:08.620 they've allowed michael knowles and matt walsh to kind of openly dissent um from some of ben's

00:47:14.680 arguments and sometimes they do it on their like live streams which i think again like that is that

00:47:19.000 is a good thing and it tells me that they know even among their own audience uh that it's it's

00:47:24.600 sort of controversial to be totally embracing every single element of Ben's arguments. I think

00:47:31.300 they also, I mean, it's an interesting new media lesson. We don't totally have the full story

00:47:36.640 publicly yet, but the growth was too fast and you have to have diversified, I think, revenue streams,

00:47:44.180 whereas if like a big chunk of your revenue is based around Ben and you want to build a big

00:47:48.780 media company that does movies and TV shows and documentaries, and also has a news website.

00:47:55.560 And remember, they had a publishing imprint for a while, they were doing books and children's

00:47:59.520 programming. And, you know, you're reliant on probably streams of investor money, but your big

00:48:05.660 pull is still Ben. At one point, it was Candace. That's a really rickety foundation for a media

00:48:13.320 company in the long term. And so I think they ran into some trouble with that, where it was just,

00:48:18.200 to your point, mission creep way too fast as well. Like creep is probably not the right word,

00:48:22.720 but like mission sprinting in different directions. And it was not a good foundation

00:48:27.820 for success. Yeah. I mean, just he he's doubled down on it many times. Just when President Trump

00:48:34.340 decided to attack Tucker and yours truly and some others who have been skeptics of the Iran war

00:48:39.920 repeatedly in some tweets a couple of weeks ago, Ben retweeted his turning point speech

00:48:45.400 calling for us to be excommunicated

00:48:48.100 from the conservative movement saying,

00:48:50.000 now seems like a good time to re-up this.

00:48:52.280 Okay, all right, I see.

00:48:54.800 You haven't moved at all off of your position

00:48:57.080 that you get to dictate

00:48:58.100 who's part of the conservative movement, who isn't.

00:49:02.160 Meanwhile, I'd been at Fox News for 16 years

00:49:04.800 before anybody even knew his name.

00:49:06.600 Like some of us have been in this media space

00:49:08.640 for a very long time,

00:49:10.660 fighting very important fights for decades.

00:49:14.040 that includes Tucker Carlson for sure.

00:49:16.600 And it also includes yours truly and others.

00:49:19.380 And he decided to double down on it.

00:49:21.880 So it's like, okay, when your business is hemorrhaging,

00:49:26.560 maybe cast a wide net,

00:49:29.500 maybe launch your criticisms on an individualized basis,

00:49:32.640 take on Tucker's arguments, take on mine,

00:49:34.780 whatever you think I'm not saying enough about X.

00:49:36.780 Okay, you can spend your show talking about that if you want.

00:49:38.940 I'm sure your audience doesn't really want to spend its day

00:49:41.060 hearing about that, but okay, you could do that

00:49:42.820 as opposed to, I shall decree who is in and who is out.

00:49:48.480 I appoint myself master of the conservative movement.

00:49:51.940 That doesn't work. 1.00

00:49:53.440 Liberals may like that shit, but conservatives don't. 1.00

00:49:56.760 Maybe the neocon Israel first crowd likes it, but nobody else does, Emily. 1.00

00:50:00.040 Well, and listen, like, we've been inside these conservative movement spaces.

00:50:04.080 Like, one of the big messages that I have to people inside the conservative movement,

00:50:07.700 also, like, Republican and Democratic Party, like, look at what just happened in Maine

00:50:11.200 where Janet Mills, the sitting governor, had to drop out of the race because Graham Plattner was

00:50:17.060 so powerful. Janet Mills had all the money. They thought it was ridiculous that Plattner would ever 1.00

00:50:21.180 win. And she didn't even make it to the primary. A lot of that is because institutions are less

00:50:26.380 powerful than personalities now. So you can't say that, oh, we have to defer to the power of this

00:50:32.360 institution. Like, remember when National Review did this to the Birchers? That doesn't work on

00:50:36.380 younger people. It doesn't work on Americans anymore. It may have been true. And it was true

00:50:40.040 in the 70s and the 80s with William F. Buckley, but it's just not the same anymore. The institutional

00:50:44.800 power is different. And so you have to make arguments. You have to appeal to individuals

00:50:48.980 and you have to have those arguments with individuals, not with institutions. And you

00:50:53.500 can't just defer to that stuff anymore. This same crowd did this to Pat Buchanan,

00:50:59.320 whose ideas have been vindicated 110%, whom I've read a lot of over the past year. He has so many

00:51:09.480 insightful things to say about America's role in the world, about our foundational goals,

00:51:15.420 about what's happening with foreign influence. Yes, from the Israel lobby and others as well.

00:51:21.000 And how we've been, we count out to them. You know, we have made ourselves subservient to a 0.99

00:51:29.240 foreign nation, nevermind just influenced by it. And that's why he had to be otherized and demonized. 0.58

00:51:34.780 We'll pick this up on the opposite side of this break. More with Emily after this. Don't go away.

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00:52:50.640 Back with me now, Emily Jaschinski, host of After Party with Emily Jaschinski.

00:52:55.520 It's live every Monday and Wednesday night at 9 p.m. Eastern on YouTube.

00:52:58.480 And you can just get it as a podcast if you can't stay up that late like yours truly.

00:53:01.880 We in the Kelly Brunt household have been up late over the past week or two watching Imperfect Women, which I highly recommend.

00:53:11.760 It was so good.

00:53:13.080 We just watched the final episode last night.

00:53:14.500 It's hard to find good thrillers, you know, that don't have like lame ties up at the end, you know, tying it together.

00:53:20.360 They nailed it.

00:53:21.540 Really, really well done.

00:53:23.420 It's got Kerry Washington.

00:53:25.180 It's got Elizabeth Moss.

00:53:27.000 It's got Kate Mara.

00:53:29.400 Really, really good.

00:53:30.500 So if you haven't seen it and you like thrillers, it's an eight-parter.

00:53:34.600 I never know where you see these things, right, Emily?

00:53:36.580 The next question is, which app did you watch it on?

00:53:38.880 Who the hell knows?

00:53:39.660 I don't know.

00:53:40.240 I don't know what app we watched it on.

00:53:41.880 Netflix or Apple, I think.

00:53:43.580 Well, I like that you can stay up late for Kerry Washington, but not for After Party, Megan.

00:53:47.420 I'll remember that.

00:53:52.340 I have inside access to After Party.

00:53:55.600 That's true.

00:53:56.160 And the betrayal.

00:53:57.260 But Doug, of all people, I expected more.

00:53:59.580 I know.

00:54:00.740 Usually we're there, usually. 0.99

00:54:03.420 There's bad stuff happening that you should know about in Iran.

00:54:08.100 Our ceasefire is not going well.

00:54:09.720 You're going to be shocked to learn shocked.

00:54:11.640 Here's the latest.

00:54:13.760 First of all, the person updating us on the latest bad news is Bradley Cooper, which I

00:54:18.900 told Steve Krakauer, we've really dropped the ball here if we're not taking these pressers

00:54:22.820 live and Bradley Cooper is the new spokesperson for CENTCOM.

00:54:26.500 It turns out there's more than one man by that name.

00:54:29.580 He says the following, that 15,000 U.S. service members are now involved in what we're calling Project Freedom.

00:54:40.220 We reported on this today on AM Update.

00:54:43.000 It is our new effort to help commercial vessels pass through the Strait of Hormuz.

00:54:47.020 Trump, the administration clarified that we're not, allegedly, we're not like physically escorting and protecting them.

00:54:53.180 We're just helping show them the route that will avoid mines and other dangers.

00:54:58.620 So I guess I no one really knows, as is typical with the reporting on this war.

00:55:03.860 But the reporting is that we have 15000 U.S. service members who are involved in this effort, that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard has launched drones and missiles to try to disrupt the mission over the last several hours.

00:55:17.880 And now we're having like return fire.

00:55:20.860 The U.S. military blew up six small Iranian boats in the Strait of Hormuz on Monday after

00:55:27.060 Iran launched multiple cruise missiles, drones, and small boats at U.S. Navy ships and at

00:55:32.840 commercial ships being, quote, protected, again, it's unclear, by the U.S. military,

00:55:37.480 according to Bradley Cooper.

00:55:39.880 The Iranian boats were attacked by U.S. Apache and SH-60 Seahawk helicopters.

00:55:45.400 So it doesn't sound like a ceasefire.

00:55:48.200 It sounds like there's some fire that's not ceasing. And this is to the surprise of no one, as President Trump claims, but no one knows for sure what's in there, that he's received a 14 point plan from the Iranians to bring this thing to a close, which he claims is not good enough.

00:56:07.400 and now he's going to play hardball and he doesn't want to talk to them yet.

00:56:12.380 I was on with Piers Morgan a little earlier, Emily, and he asked me,

00:56:15.640 what would you tell the president to do?

00:56:17.760 And I said I would tell him to just take the deal. 0.87

00:56:22.460 Give the Revolutionary Guard something.

00:56:25.700 It appears to be that they're mercenaries.

00:56:28.400 So give them some sort of financial incentive to relinquish control over the strait

00:56:33.280 and don't make whatever around the nuclear program

00:56:38.460 be the thing that screws up the end of the deal

00:56:41.260 because we already know

00:56:42.640 that we did obliterate their nuclear facilities in June

00:56:45.500 and our intelligence community already assessed

00:56:48.480 that they're nowhere near having a nuclear bomb.

00:56:50.780 So we'll continue to spy on them.

00:56:52.620 Obviously, if we want to continue

00:56:54.820 with the IAEA inspections,

00:56:56.860 they'd probably agree to that, frankly.

00:56:58.960 And that's really all we need, in my view.

00:57:01.160 I hadn't Mark Levin has a different view I get it but um let's just get out and try to open up

00:57:07.400 the Strait of Hormuz because that's the pinch point they have against us and now our blockade

00:57:12.380 of their ports is the pinch point we have on them but we're gonna feel that pain already

00:57:16.020 we've got jet fuel at the highest level they've seen in years um we've got airlines folding here

00:57:22.660 in America spirit had many problems but this was like the last straw we've got American Airlines

00:57:27.480 profits for this year already projected to be wiped out by the hike in fuel uh the the price

00:57:34.380 of gasoline per gallon is now up at what four what is it you guys remind me 4.25 or something

00:57:40.260 4.45 now it's 4.45 my own pump in connecticut five dollars and nine cents a gallon five dollars

00:57:50.740 and nine cents a gallon that's crazy um and you're gonna see it right now they're projecting i was

00:57:56.900 actually just looking at the New York Times this morning. My God, it's so small. I'm getting so

00:58:01.340 old. But the projection is that the Strait of Hormuz is expected to remain effectively closed

00:58:06.920 for weeks, raising the prospect of prolonged high energy prices. And they pointed out something I

00:58:13.140 hadn't seen, which is despite Mr. Trump's claims of gas prices dropping soon, Secretary of Energy

00:58:19.300 Chris Wright acknowledged last month they could remain elevated for the rest of the year. Now

00:58:25.420 that's if things wrap up today. Today. But they're not going to wrap up today. So the longer this

00:58:32.700 goes on, the longer the pain goes on because these energy prices remain spiked and that has a rolling

00:58:39.060 effect that doesn't hit us here in the United States the next day. It takes months. So all of

00:58:45.420 this portends very badly for the midterms and for President Trump's approval ratings and his ability

00:58:51.520 to get anything done, Emily.

00:58:54.320 Well, and this is where it's really bad for the president

00:58:56.540 is that he is now in a situation

00:58:59.400 where he has promised to win a war.

00:59:01.900 And he said multiple times he's won the war,

00:59:03.560 but Americans have for several months now

00:59:05.520 made sacrifices at the pump.

00:59:07.640 This is obviously going to cause

00:59:09.340 basically across the board inflation.

00:59:11.560 And that's not, I think these assessments are correct.

00:59:13.820 Trump himself acknowledged in an interview

00:59:15.480 with Maria Bartiromo a couple of weeks ago

00:59:17.340 that, yeah, the prices could remain elevated 0.97

00:59:20.100 all the way up until the midterm elections. And so when you're asking the public to make a

00:59:25.940 sacrifice for safety, and then you have to find a way to negotiate something that is different

00:59:32.820 from what was on the table before the war, that is a serious, serious problem for President Trump

00:59:39.800 right now. Because if you lose American lives in the Strait of Hormuz, the Strait of Hormuz was

00:59:44.040 obviously open before the war began. And so if you end up losing American lives, this is an

00:59:50.160 escalation that we're seeing happen right now in the process of trying to get something back to 0.74

00:59:54.680 the pre-war status quo. That is disastrous, all while you're asking Americans to sacrifice their

01:00:01.600 hard-earned money. It's basically wiped out the benefits that the Trump administration was excited

01:00:06.000 about from the tax cuts. That's what some of the economic estimates are looking like right now.

01:00:10.260 it's easy to see how those prices are so, so high and not going down anytime soon in all likelihood.

01:00:15.760 And so you might end up, I pray to God it doesn't happen, but you might end up losing more troops

01:00:21.400 in the process of trying to open the Strait of Hormuz. And then what is on the table in terms

01:00:26.000 of actually, like we're right now seeing President Trump has said the Iranian Navy has basically been

01:00:30.520 decimated. Well, we're in an era of asymmetric warfare where they have their mosquito fleet, 0.99

01:00:35.620 they have drones, they can find a way to cause us pain if we're truly trying to reopen the 1.00

01:00:41.700 Strait of Hormuz. So where things are looking at right now for a peace deal, your option is,

01:00:46.940 I think, the sane option. But the president is in a situation where he said that he was going to

01:00:52.360 change the fate of Iran. And he's defined it in many different terms, you know, freedom for the

01:00:58.420 Iranian people. He's defined it as no nukes ever. And I don't know where you go from here at this

01:01:04.420 point, if that's what the president thinks he has to get out of this conflict to look like,

01:01:09.100 he's truly had a win. So it's a scary position to be in right now.

01:01:15.460 Yeah, because you've got the risk of escalation right there, looming over every move we make and

01:01:21.440 every move they make, anything provocative by us, and they'd be happy to start this thing back up.

01:01:26.160 They don't care. And they are enjoying watching Trump suffer politically. And I think the president's

01:01:33.240 very frustrated. My own impression is he's very frustrated right now because he's used to being

01:01:39.320 able to will his desires into existence, just the sheer force of him. And he's a tough negotiator.

01:01:49.160 He can be a bully in his negotiations, which has always worked for him. And it's not working.

01:01:56.120 And he's not used to this. I think he doesn't quite know how to get out of this one.

01:01:59.980 I think that's totally correct. If they had a good idea of how to get out of it, we wouldn't keep hitting these impasses in negotiations and the like. And, you know, that's the question. If Iran wants to say 15 years, 20 years, no enrichment, and put that on the table, and it's not good enough for President Trump, then which, again, I don't even think it's an unreasonable position for Donald Trump, who ran on non-nuclear Iran against Barack Obama, like the politics of it.

01:02:29.980 You can easily see how you get that position from Donald Trump. But at the same time, if that's the brick wall that you're hitting, it doesn't go away. It doesn't go away unless he finds some way to restore the Strait of Hormuz to what it was in the pre-war condition and then force Iran to concede while it has all of these asymmetric abilities to keep causing us pain.

01:02:55.940 So I don't know how you end up breaking that wall because it's the same thing that we keep hitting up against. They're not going to agree to no nukes ever. It's just not it's not going to happen. And unless we're willing to keep fighting it out against this asymmetric military threat from Iran, then we're in it for the long haul. 0.94

01:03:16.680 Mm hmm. You've got Lindsey Graham and Mark Thiessen saying, if they won't give us what we want, the leaders with whom we're negotiating in Iran, kill them, kill the people we're negotiating with so that we can get some, quote, more reasonable people to negotiate with.

01:03:35.620 so we should just keep killing the people we're negotiating. 0.52

01:03:38.100 What that would do to the United States' ability to negotiate with anyone 0.86

01:03:42.000 on a go-forward basis is unthinkable.

01:03:45.120 And that is, to me, so irresponsible.

01:03:47.480 That's an insane suggestion.

01:03:48.980 Just like, you will agree to everything we demand,

01:03:51.740 or we will drone you and your family. 1.00

01:03:53.980 You're all going to die. 1.00

01:03:56.000 This is being thrown around casually, like it's an easy option for us.

01:04:00.140 Without any recognition of the fact that we have intermediaries,

01:04:03.820 We have the Pakistani PM who's involved in all of this.

01:04:06.600 Like, that's an important ally in some ways.

01:04:09.060 Why would we telegraph to them or anybody else that our word is no good?

01:04:15.080 We are never participating in good faith in negotiations. 0.99

01:04:18.200 You disagree with us, we will fucking drone you, and it'll be over. 0.95

01:04:23.080 So, like, how's that going to go? 0.99

01:04:24.880 That sounds, that feels really good in the moment when you're killing the person you disagreed with across the table from Jared Kushner.

01:04:31.100 the consequences long-term be damned. Well, right. That's predicated on the idea that if you 0.94

01:04:38.840 kill this person, if you drone this person, what's going to come next is going to be someone more 0.70

01:04:43.220 reasonable. And that assumption is doing some real heavy lifting from Lindsey Graham and anybody 0.97

01:04:48.940 making such propositions. Because if you are asking people, just on a human level, if you're

01:04:55.280 asking people who would be in a position to negotiate after you take out one layer of

01:04:59.280 leadership to then be more reasonable rather than more radical and more doggedly opposed to the

01:05:07.240 United States. Again, that is a very, I mean, you are betting a lot on that particular idea of what

01:05:14.180 would happen if you do that. And then what, of course, to your point happens when you're trying

01:05:18.420 to host negotiations in the future and people worry that it's a setup for them to get killed

01:05:24.100 or droned in the process, the long-term ramifications of that way of prosecuting a war

01:05:29.220 are just frankly insane, insane. But it keeps happening, of course.

01:05:33.740 Our word used to be really good. Our word used to be very good. The word of the United States

01:05:38.840 of America. And it's being eroded and besmirched bit by bit by every time we keep doing this. This

01:05:45.600 is twice we've allegedly negotiated with the Iranians of good faith only to bomb them while 0.90

01:05:51.120 they were negotiating with us. And, you know, Thiessen and Lindsey Graham would like it to be

01:05:56.300 a third, at least. Speaking of our word, President Trump tells Fox News in an interview that's about

01:06:03.400 to hit that the Iranians will, quote, be blown off the face of the earth if they attack U.S.

01:06:10.100 vessels that are guiding ships through the Strait of Hormuz as part of, quote, Project Freedom. 0.95

01:06:15.900 So the Iranians will be blown off the face of the earth if they attack the vessels. 0.99

01:06:19.220 I mean, they are attacking the vessels. We just started the hour by saying they've launched drones and missiles to try to thwart the traffic and disrupt the mission over the last several hours. That's what led to our retaliatory strikes against them. So it is happening. I'm not sure exactly what he means, if this is just more bellicose language by the president trying to escalate everything to an 11, right, to try to just scare them. 0.98

01:06:44.540 We're going to end civilization as we know it.

01:06:47.280 OK, you know, like all this rhetoric.

01:06:48.900 By the way, the latest poll shows the majority of the public strongly disapproves of that

01:06:52.860 language.

01:06:53.520 They want him to stop doing that.

01:06:55.380 He won't listen. 1.00

01:06:56.400 Like shit talking is something the president's really good at. 1.00

01:06:58.980 And I think he thinks that's his only tool. 1.00

01:07:01.600 I really do.

01:07:02.120 I think it's like tried and true.

01:07:04.520 It's familiar to him.

01:07:05.500 It's comfortable.

01:07:06.260 It's like there's like the old sweater with the elbow patches.

01:07:08.600 He loves it.

01:07:09.680 You know, he puts it on.

01:07:10.860 He feels good.

01:07:11.540 He feels warm and fuzzy. 0.99

01:07:12.520 So like shit talking and shit posting, he's home. 1.00

01:07:15.880 But I don't think he knows how to actually get us out of this, not against this enemy. 1.00

01:07:20.400 I want to go back to the Tucker thing for a minute because, yeah, you go.

01:07:23.200 Well, I was just going to say, I mean, it also, the power of it fades over time if it's not then followed up.

01:07:28.360 And I'm certainly very happy that he didn't follow up on his threat to wipe out an entire civilization.

01:07:33.860 But it only goes so far.

01:07:35.880 If you continue to speak in the bellicose rhetoric, and then it turns out to just be rhetoric, just even tactically, that doesn't fulfill its own goal. So the power of it wanes over time. Anyway, it's sort of like with the tariffs, which I've been pretty supportive of, to be honest, but it's basically this idea that you can, you know, posture, get the markets to go in one direction or the other.

01:07:58.180 Well, some countries have started to bet against the United States and do their business elsewhere and say, well, we can't rely on the United States anymore.

01:08:04.420 We can't rely on the word of the president because it changes.

01:08:06.820 And so we're just going to hedge our bets and go somewhere else.

01:08:09.160 He's doing something similar, I think, on the foreign policy level.

01:08:11.800 And the power of being able to intimidate other countries into agreeing with you to coerce them, it does wane over time.

01:08:18.520 It's not something that lasts forever.

01:08:20.120 and plus it's like my main thing is i don't want american troops to die number one but i really

01:08:26.740 am very focused on the midterms because the midterms get tougher for republicans in 28

01:08:32.900 in particular in the senate um i mean obviously in the senate because the house re re does itself

01:08:39.740 every two years uh but the senate is it's the map gets worse for the republicans in 28 so they

01:08:45.740 really need to hold on in 26. And now we played it for our audience late last week. Mark Halperin

01:08:50.320 saying, I think the Senate may now be in play, like legitimately in play, which was new for him.

01:08:54.580 He hadn't been there. And so like, if we lose the Senate, if the right loses control of the Senate,

01:09:00.280 you like forget you, you will not confirm another judge. President Trump will not get another judge

01:09:05.680 on the federal bench for the remainder of his term, which is a very big deal. That is like

01:09:11.040 a large reason. A lot of people on the right voted for President Trump because of the lunacy

01:09:15.320 happening on the federal bench and to put a stop to that.

01:09:17.700 Well, you can kiss it goodbye.

01:09:19.220 Nevermind the investigations that we're going to see.

01:09:21.320 It was just going to be nonstop investigatory.

01:09:23.500 He's never going to have a nominee to his cabinet confirmed.

01:09:26.320 You know, good luck changing out a member of the cabinet

01:09:28.640 because they need Senate confirmation too.

01:09:30.900 Like, it's just, it's going to be so stymied for him

01:09:33.400 if he loses control of the Senate.

01:09:34.700 That can't happen, which is one of the reasons

01:09:37.100 why we are looking so closely at gas prices,

01:09:39.660 which are hurting people.

01:09:41.140 They're hurting working people. 1.00

01:09:42.700 People like my mom, who lives on a fixed income. 1.00

01:09:46.960 Obviously, I help my mom out. 0.99

01:09:48.700 But, you know, without me, she'd be living on a fixed income that would very much be rattling her because her day to day would be deeply affected by these gas prices.

01:09:58.120 And that's how most Americans live.

01:09:59.660 Here's Harry Enten on how Americans are reacting to the rising gas prices in Sot 10.

01:10:05.020 Look at this.

01:10:05.860 Blame for the increase in gas prices.

01:10:07.900 Seventy seven percent say Donald Trump.

01:10:10.180 I look back at every president I could find on a similar question, which is when the gas prices rise, who gets the blame?

01:10:17.240 Trump gets the blame more than Joe Biden did back in 2022, more than Barack Obama did in 2012, and more than George W. Bush did back in 2005, 71 percent.

01:10:27.260 Donald Trump takes the cake. He owns this mess, according to the American people.

01:10:31.400 And it is quite the mess because his gas prices climb ever higher and the increase in the percentage that blamed Donald Trump climb ever higher.

01:10:37.760 his approval ratings go down in the base but when you break it down by party this is where it gets

01:10:43.200 oh my you know this is a republican base that has been infatuated with donald trump for years

01:10:49.060 but even here blame trump for rising gas prices 55 a majority of republicans blame donald trump

01:10:56.280 for gas prices that is the highest ever blame for gas prices from one's own party then you see 82

01:11:01.440 percent of independents that's the highest percentage who blame the president of the

01:11:05.320 united states among independents not much of a surprise 95 percent of democrats but majority

01:11:09.600 majority majority and what he keeps saying emily is that it's basically your patriotic duty to

01:11:18.160 support these higher gas prices and pay them because iran cannot have a nuclear weapon not

01:11:22.920 withstanding the fact that it was his own intelligence agencies that said they're not

01:11:27.040 getting one we're good that's not a concern we need to have right now especially in the wake of

01:11:31.380 the bombing that we did in June. So that, I mean, it's not, the public is not buying his rationale

01:11:37.820 at all. And what he keeps saying also is, look at the stock market, the stock market. Okay.

01:11:43.600 That's a rich person thing. Like, I'm sorry, but like, yes, the average person may have 401ks

01:11:49.380 that get affected by the stock market, but the true average American is worried about

01:11:55.280 what's in their weekly disbursement from Social Security, what they get in their paycheck,

01:12:01.660 and they don't have a ton of money in the market.

01:12:05.360 Right. Stocks are a long-term concern for probably about 60% of the country, but it's not

01:12:10.080 their monthly income is not coming from that. And so he takes so much credit for the market that I

01:12:17.520 think it's actually why Harry Enten was just pointing out those numbers are historically high

01:12:22.060 of your own party blaming the president for where gas prices are, because if you are constantly

01:12:27.160 taking ownership of the markets, it looks to the average person like you're taking ownership of

01:12:31.960 the economy. And he's done that in various ways over, you know, gas prices are great. He's taking

01:12:36.460 credit for the gas prices being great. And so he's, you know, if anything economic is happening

01:12:42.460 in a good way, he's taking credit for it. He's very intentional and strategic about that. And

01:12:46.020 so it's much easier than for people to blame you when the economy is in a bad position. And Megan,

01:12:50.840 I remember you and I were talking a month ago about some of these Senate races. I think the

01:12:54.720 big ones to watch are Ohio and Nebraska right now, because if you're in Ohio, or if you're in

01:13:00.080 Nebraska, you're Pete Ricketts, and you have to defend the administration at every campaign stop

01:13:05.020 that is taking money, it feels like to the average person, is taking money out of their pockets

01:13:08.840 for the Strait of Hormuz, which was open before the war began. If you have to defend that at stop

01:13:14.480 after stop, your support for this war, your support for this president to voters, those two races are

01:13:20.080 really, really, really wants to watch. Susan Collins is kind of always vulnerable, but always

01:13:24.440 persists. So I don't know what's going to happen in that race. Texas, I think, is probably safe 0.99

01:13:29.560 for Republicans. North Carolina is going to be a real problem for Republicans. North Carolina,

01:13:35.340 Ohio, Nebraska. Yep, that's a big, big problem across the board. Georgia, certainly. So a lot

01:13:42.420 of serious headaches for Republicans, especially as they get into the summer and they're back at

01:13:47.400 The one in Maine concerns me, too, because this Graham Plattner, who is now going to be the Democratic nominee, you know, even Tucker was like praising him somewhat on that New York Times interview because his foreign policy sounds like Tucker's, you know, like, don't intervene, like stay out of other people's wars, which I like, too.

01:14:08.100 However, you look down the resume and you see he wants to pack the Supreme Court with extra seats and make Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico states.

01:14:15.140 No, it's a no. No. Oh, my God. If that were to happen, you know, like we'd have amnesty. We'd have mass amnesty if we had a Democrat in the White House and a Democrat-controlled Senate with people that radical. It's very scary to me. I care about foreign policy, but it's not my number one issue to the place where I'd be willing to vote for a guy like that.

01:14:36.400 But he's got I don't know. He's got some. Is it charm? I don't know if that's the right word. Is it like charisma? I'm not sure he's he's new and he's young and he's interesting in a way that Susan Collins can never be and never was.

01:14:50.780 Yeah, we've interviewed him before at Breaking Points, and he's very raw. Like, he will just have a conversation like a normal human being. And so policy disputes aside, looking at him as a candidate, I know it's such a low bar for politicians, but he's the type of guy, like, I was just listening to him with David Sirota on Lever News yesterday. David asked him if he would go on Tucker's podcast. And Graham's response was, you know, I don't know, to be honest with you, I'm just sort of torn on this question myself.

01:15:17.640 I've been thinking about it a lot. And I just don't, you know, he's like, I just want to be

01:15:20.800 honest. I don't have an answer for you right now. It's like that to the average voter right now in

01:15:25.480 this, as we were talking about earlier in the show, the algorithmic social media based

01:15:29.500 political discourse that we have, it's like, oh my gosh, that person sounds like a human being.

01:15:34.780 They're not reading talking points. So I think he's just a very, very good candidate. Policy

01:15:40.160 disputes aside, again, he's very anti-establishment. He says the problem is with both parties

01:15:45.000 and he's just able to talk like a normal human.

01:15:48.500 So he'll be tough.

01:15:50.600 He'll definitely put up a good fight in that race.

01:15:53.700 Yeah.

01:15:54.280 Yeah.

01:15:54.840 I don't know.

01:15:55.140 It's like, it's funny because the Democrats will vote for him,

01:15:56.940 notwithstanding his Nazi tattoo.

01:15:59.340 And the New York Times will sit down with Tucker,

01:16:02.600 notwithstanding the fact that they've been telling us

01:16:04.360 he's like chief racist of all times, right?

01:16:07.540 Like on the front page of its paper just a couple of years ago.

01:16:10.760 But now they're interested in him, right?

01:16:13.100 because he's crossed the president it's like they're so predictable these left-wing media

01:16:18.160 outlets and the democrats in general they're so predictable it's like oh whatever a certain male

01:16:22.360 gesture comes to mind um okay i want to keep going uh i did want to get to this one i did think this

01:16:29.340 was interesting tucker was asked about the nick fuentes interview he had told me this privately

01:16:33.160 but he said it on camera here it is thought 18 i wish i hadn't done the fuentes interview because

01:16:38.840 really yeah it was totally not worth it i mean it was like kind of interesting i guess

01:16:43.700 but it was used as i added to the distraction what i really wanted to talk about

01:16:53.460 was where we were going in this war with iran and i spent like a month getting calls from people

01:17:01.860 being like, you're a Nazi. Okay. And I wish I hadn't done that. Not that it didn't imperil my

01:17:09.200 soul. I've interviewed far worse people than Nick Fuentes, like Mike Huckabee, far worse person than

01:17:15.240 Nick Fuentes, hurt many more people than Nick Fuentes. Same with Ted Cruz. But so I don't think

01:17:21.080 it affected me. I interview people I disagree with all the time. And often I'm polite to them,

01:17:25.740 including war criminals. The only person I've really been impolite with is Ted Cruz,

01:17:30.440 because I have limited self-control and he's just so repulsive I couldn't control myself 0.94

01:17:34.360 and I was a I was a jerk and I tried to apologize but if you had to sit across from Ted Cruz 0.99

01:17:39.700 it's just there's something about him it's just like repulsive I mean it's like disgusting like 0.96

01:17:44.680 if you entered a men's room and Ted Cruz was there you would be like I can hold it I'm leaving

01:17:48.740 and and I broke down under the strain of his repulsiveness but in general I try to be nice

01:17:54.380 to everybody but man that that Fuentes interview I just added to the distraction okay so who's

01:18:00.440 we've established he does not like Ted Cruz, but I play that clip, not for that piece, but for the

01:18:06.540 Fuentes thing. I knew, I knew that he'd regretted doing it because it's truly like they turned

01:18:11.500 Tucker into a Nazi for sitting across from this guy. And it's crazy, Emily, because, you know,

01:18:16.040 she pressed him too. She's like, well, I saw your Ted Cruz interview was much more contentious. It

01:18:19.520 was more prosecutorial where your interview with Nick Fuentes was like more friendly. And he

01:18:24.460 explained there why, why he doesn't like Ted and why they got contentious. And, you know, Ted gave

01:18:29.820 as good as he got in that exchange, but it's amazing how much of our national conversation

01:18:36.920 revolves around this guy, Fuentes, and some of these characters who make their way into the news.

01:18:43.160 They have their opinions. They're controversial, of course, but it's like, why wouldn't she want

01:18:47.980 to discuss more what the policymakers are doing than what this kid in Chicago, I don't know if

01:18:54.300 he's a kid anymore I think he's like 29 could be wrong uh but he's you know in Chicago thinks about

01:18:59.860 life like why why is she so focused on that and not actual policy that'll appear on the pages of

01:19:06.800 the New York Times the next day and the day after that I had the exact same reaction to the interview

01:19:11.160 that it was like genuinely generally okay but then the focus on the Fuentes stuff was absurd like

01:19:18.080 wildly over the top uh it was interesting to me that Tucker said he didn't think that it was worth

01:19:23.600 it. It quite obviously was not worth it. Like, the juice was not worth the squeeze. There was

01:19:28.020 a middle part of that interview that was really critical of Fuentes as it was happening, and

01:19:33.460 nobody went with that section of it at all. You saw no clips from that part of the interview.

01:19:37.960 It basically just didn't exist where Tucker was questioning him on how you can consider

01:19:42.420 yourself a Christian and be bigoted and believe in blood guilt and the like. Again, nobody picked

01:19:47.500 up on that part of the interview. Didn't see any clips of it. But yeah, it did become a distraction

01:19:53.340 through, it's not even really Tucker's fault that it became a distraction. I was getting

01:19:57.780 actually kind of angry when I was listening to this recent episode of Tucker's show where 0.99

01:20:01.820 he did a great interview with this head of a startup on, that is doing like reproductive

01:20:07.800 technology, like very high tech reproductive stuff. And it was, you could tell a technology

01:20:13.080 that Tucker found abhorrent, morally abhorrent. And I'm listening to him give this kid a really

01:20:19.820 fair, kind, polite, civil, decent interview. And it was a fantastic conversation, which made me

01:20:25.980 angry because if you listen to every episode of Tucker's show, you realize he does this all of

01:20:31.980 the time. He's truly correct that basically it was the Ted Cruz interview and the end of the

01:20:36.600 Huckabee interview where he lost his cool. But it's something he's like, he's a conversationalist

01:20:42.420 and it's why his show is successful is because he's very good at getting people to open up

01:20:46.200 and genuinely press them as a human being, from one human being to another, on the questions that

01:20:51.840 the conversation is leading them to. It's not super prepped. It's really him up in Maine just

01:20:56.740 having a conversation. The cameras are rolling. And so that's why people like him. And that's

01:21:03.480 why this effort in the long term is going to backfire to try to smear him. Because again,

01:21:08.520 when you dig into it and you watch the reality, just like I thought Lulu did a good job of

01:21:13.700 bringing out who Tucker is by giving him the space to talk in this conversation. He sounds a lot more

01:21:18.980 reasonable outside the clip ecosystem. And when people have that experience of seeing the long

01:21:24.760 form versus the clip, sometimes it's radicalizing for people and in a good direction where they

01:21:29.680 realize they are being lied to by the people who they thought were against the media, who they

01:21:35.260 thought were against the institutional legacy media who are acting just like the institutional

01:21:40.320 legacy media. That's exactly right. He's going to be on the program on Thursday, so we'll talk to

01:21:46.760 him about some of the other clips that are making the rounds and more. All right, I'm going to take

01:21:50.360 a quick break, Emily. We will come back and we've got to get into the massive, massive piece that

01:21:55.600 just dropped in Vulture on Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively with some new reveals in there.

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01:24:11.000 Hey everyone, it's me, Megan Kelly. I've got some exciting news.

01:24:15.240 I now have my very own channel on Sirius XM.

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01:24:45.240 Back with me now, Emily Jashinsky of The After Party Show and The MK Wrap-Up Show as well, live right here on SiriusXM after The MK Show airs.

01:24:54.160 And you can call in and speak to her just as soon as that starts in a short time.

01:24:58.600 Okay, so Vulture does a very, very deep dive into the Baldoni Lively Saga.

01:25:07.660 This is part of New York Magazine's media empire.

01:25:11.140 and it was a fascinating read.

01:25:14.220 I have to say it was 30 pages long.

01:25:17.000 And what I learned is that

01:25:20.080 you should never work with Blake Lively.

01:25:23.860 Every errant word, suggestion, story,

01:25:29.220 personal anecdote, or moment with the guard down

01:25:32.460 will be used against you.

01:25:34.540 Notwithstanding the power imbalance being on her side, 0.97

01:25:38.560 she will paint herself a victim. 0.99

01:25:39.840 She will turn her celebrity husband against you and Taylor Swift, as we know, and that the loathing of this woman extended well beyond ultimately Justin Baldoni and his business partners, even Sony, right?

01:25:56.340 Was it Sony, which was, I guess, putting out the film?

01:26:01.240 I got to make sure I have that right. 0.93

01:26:02.520 Yeah, Sony called her a terrorist, 1.00

01:26:06.680 called her a terrorist in the way that she was behaving

01:26:09.500 toward Justin Baldoni and the rest of the people

01:26:12.640 working on this film because she wanted to be

01:26:16.520 a boss lady, Emily. 0.98

01:26:18.920 And she tried to bully Justin Baldoni

01:26:21.460 and was bitter about the fact that on her prior films

01:26:25.220 where she'd been hired just to act,

01:26:27.920 they would not let her screenwrite or direct.

01:26:31.780 Meanwhile, they had other people filling those roles.

01:26:34.000 And that was also the case on this movie

01:26:36.140 she did with Baldoni, It Ends With Us,

01:26:38.260 but she thought she had a weakling 0.97

01:26:39.940 whom she could bully into letting her do those things.

01:26:43.100 And when, and he did, he largely did.

01:26:45.860 But only when she decided it wasn't enough,

01:26:48.760 he wasn't seeding enough,

01:26:50.060 and she started to defriend him on social media and so on,

01:26:52.800 did he then realize he needed to hire his own team.

01:26:56.620 And that's when she started to feel

01:26:58.940 like she needed to sue him.

01:27:01.260 You know, like any bad publicity

01:27:02.800 must have been generated by him.

01:27:05.460 There's no way people could be turning on her.

01:27:07.700 And now we're about to go into a trial.

01:27:09.280 It's May 4th today.

01:27:11.360 We are 15 days away from the start

01:27:14.740 of what is likely to be the trial of the century,

01:27:17.760 at least when it comes to civil liability and or Hollywood.

01:27:21.160 So what were your impressions?

01:27:22.360 I know you took a look at the vulture article.

01:27:24.920 Yeah, well, I always love when Kelly's court is in session on this because the trial is going to be like really, I don't know, it's just there's so many tangled variables or interests that are like going through the legal process right now with this story.

01:27:39.040 But the vulture piece puts the meat on the bones.

01:27:41.880 I think of the broad contours that you and a lot of others saw immediately when that Christmastime New York Times article dropped.

01:27:49.840 uh that was this was this was like a year and a half ago at this point where this was like the

01:27:55.040 first big article uh of the saga and it was trying to point the finger at Baldoni in almost a me too

01:28:03.700 way and you could see in that story how something was being built and constructed even at that time

01:28:10.820 when we had so little context about what was happening behind the scenes and what you get in

01:28:15.100 this vulture piece is the step-by-step TikTok of how Blake Lively and Ryan Reynolds roped in a

01:28:24.700 network of very powerful celebrities and their reputations to try to take down Baldoni and save

01:28:32.260 Blake Lively's career. They brought in Matt Damon and Matt Damon's wife. Obviously, people have

01:28:38.000 known about the Taylor Swift of it all for a long time, but they are consciously trying. And you see

01:28:43.520 in their text messages, which are deeply embarrassing because they are groveling to

01:28:49.080 their celebrity friends. Like reading them as a third party, you have secondhand embarrassment

01:28:55.800 for these celebrities who are groveling over more powerful celebrities and trying to bring

01:29:01.220 them to their side. They are invoking politics. Ryan Reynolds is referring to Baldoni as a

01:29:07.240 feminist, like F-A-U-X-minist, a fake feminist. Yeah. Here's the quote he writes to Matt Damon 1.00

01:29:13.120 and his wife. This is from Ryan Reynolds. He calls him a malignantly vain, sociopathic,

01:29:23.560 feminist with almost no sense of boundaries or shame. Keep going. 1.00

01:29:27.360 Yeah. I mean, there's message after message where they are invoking politics, feminism,

01:29:34.980 being a good ally. You can see this in some of the early text messages between Blake Lively and

01:29:39.720 Justin Baldoni. They are like bonding over allyship. It just makes your skin crawl because

01:29:44.600 it's so cringy. It's just like- And their wokeness.

01:29:47.080 Yes. It's just like toxic millennial behavior, which I can say because I'm a millennial,

01:29:51.080 but they are just like trying to bring this huge network of celebrities to crush

01:29:56.600 Justin Baldoni. And they are manipulating the media in the process. It's incredible to watch

01:30:03.000 the behind the scenes happen with all of these text messages. It's amazing.

01:30:06.880 And how small these huge stars are at heart.

01:30:11.640 You know, you can have all the money and all the fame and all the trappings of Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively and still feel so small that you've got to rally your celeb network to try to ruin this director, Justin Baldoni, who really wasn't planning on doing anything to Blake Lively.

01:30:26.440 He wanted to have a successful movie. He wanted to have a great rollout. She started to publicly humiliate him by unfollowing him on social media and getting the rest of the cast to do that and making him stay in the basement for the premiere. And he accurately deduced. I mean, it doesn't exactly take a genius that she was trying to ruin him.

01:30:42.580 Like this is the beginning of a smear campaign from which he was unlikely to recover, hired his own PR team to try to fight back.

01:30:48.740 And that's been painted as now retaliation for the alleged sexual harassment.

01:30:54.000 She, in my view, completely falsely claimed she was subjected to on set.

01:30:58.300 The sexual harassment piece of her claim has been thrown out.

01:31:01.380 But I do think one of the most interesting things about this trial is going to be the exact same dynamic we saw at Amber Heard, Johnny Depp and that trial.

01:31:10.220 because she, you see in the text messages

01:31:13.440 outlined in this article that her team,

01:31:17.840 including starting with her and her husband, Ryan Reynolds, 0.62

01:31:20.840 they're like, we will label him this fominist, 0.92

01:31:26.300 like a fake feminist. 0.71

01:31:28.260 Justin Baldoni was one of those touchy feely guys

01:31:30.940 with a man bun who was like, oh, women, women,

01:31:33.400 and I need to be a real ally and all that stuff. 0.98

01:31:35.700 And they were like, he is the devil himself. 0.99

01:31:38.640 He's a disgusting man who uses that as a label to reel in women whom he then takes advantage of, speaks inappropriately to, treats with Me Too-like behaviors. 0.98

01:31:51.020 And they are going to have the chance to tell that story. 0.95

01:31:53.760 They are going, we get some of the details, which I actually hadn't heard some of these, about how they write in the, about how it started to go south, initially over tensions around sex scenes.

01:32:05.640 reading from the piece here. Some of the first hints of tension between the two emerged as they

01:32:10.040 started working out the intimate scenes between their characters in the spring of 2023. Baldoni

01:32:15.000 wanted the movie's first sex scene to telegraph the shifting power dynamic between Ryle, the guy,

01:32:19.520 and Lily, the gal. That's Justin and Blake's characters. She's in charge and then he takes 0.81

01:32:25.400 over, Baldoni wrote in a description of the scene. Quote, two strong personalities coming together as

01:32:29.880 one. His character would start kissing his way down her torso until his mouth finds that 0.92

01:32:35.400 precious place between her legs. I mean, this is like day what of me doing the dirty readings on 0.99

01:32:39.940 the air after that JP Morgan lawsuit. And I'm not Adam Carolla, so I can't handle it quite like

01:32:47.060 that. It's becoming like a sidekick for me. Okay. His direction called for the camera to then close

01:32:53.860 in unlively as she, quote, moans in ecstasy. Baldoni's notes about a different scene described

01:32:59.720 what parts of their respective bodies he hoped to show. 0.72

01:33:03.040 Quote, I imagine side boob,

01:33:05.540 an outline of butt in close-ups 0.93

01:33:07.800 if she is comfortable, he wrote. 0.99

01:33:10.340 I'm fine showing my butt, female gaze, 0.96

01:33:13.140 because he wants the whole scene shot 0.99

01:33:14.180 through like a female gaze, he says.

01:33:15.880 Lively expressed discomfort

01:33:17.000 with a number of these proposals

01:33:18.260 and a nudity writer that she negotiated. 0.97

01:33:20.620 She drew the line at any implication of oral sex 1.00

01:33:23.060 along with any nudity beyond side breast, 0.97

01:33:25.140 which would be seen whilst still wearing a bikini.

01:33:28.160 Lively, who is 38, also did not want to perform an onscreen orgasm. 0.80

01:33:32.460 I'm too old for that.

01:33:33.960 Baldoni later recalled her saying she told Baldoni that some of the scenes in the script,

01:33:38.560 like one in which Lively would role play as a naughty doctor, were starting to feel

01:33:42.320 pornographic and so on.

01:33:44.400 So it takes you through how she started to view him as like this Me Too creep, as opposed

01:33:50.620 to like the director of a saucy movie that has like a passionate couple in which she realized

01:33:58.240 he's actually an abuser right so it's like if Baldoni were doing this and they were making like

01:34:04.200 I don't know the social network yeah you'd be like isn't this about Facebook why are you talking 0.98

01:34:11.560 about side boob but like this is about love relationship sex and blah blah blah and how 0.97

01:34:16.740 whatever. And so that's her side versus, back to the Amber Heard, Johnny Depp thing, 0.96

01:34:24.040 his side, which is she's the fake feminist. She wraps herself in this cloak of female empowerment, 1.00

01:34:32.260 but she instead uses it as a cudgel against perfectly legitimate business partners who 1.00

01:34:39.420 happen to be male because she knows it's a weapon. It's a tool in her arsenal in that if she, 1.00

01:34:45.660 Blake Lively deploys it they're effed and no one will believe anyone other than you know the

01:34:53.500 believe all woman Blake Lively making the allegations so like it those are the dueling

01:34:58.760 narratives it's almost like who's gonna win the narrative whoever wins the narrative wins the

01:35:03.980 trial didn't one of them I thought Baldoni actually hired uh the the Johnny Depp uh was it

01:35:10.040 the publicist or the lawyer um in the amber heard case like that's one of the meal the lawyer doesn't

01:35:16.080 work for him but it might it might be i mean he's he has brian friedman my lawyer representing him

01:35:20.380 who does not have the johnny depp lawyer at his firm but it could be a publicist yeah but it might

01:35:25.820 by the way brian brian friedman he went on in the well which is one of our mk true crime new shows

01:35:32.100 with Mark Garagos and Matt, sorry, Matt Murphy.

01:35:39.760 And they interviewed Brian Friedman

01:35:42.440 and he offered some insights on the trial,

01:35:45.940 which is great because he's about to try this thing

01:35:47.440 in two weeks.

01:35:49.200 And listen to what, this is the one I want to play

01:35:51.500 because it actually telegraphs a little bit

01:35:53.120 about what they, the defense, are going to concede.

01:35:57.160 Stop 34.

01:35:58.040 You know, are you defaming someone when you're actually, you know, what's showing up are videos that existed on the Internet?

01:36:09.340 You're not creating new content.

01:36:11.640 You're actually, you know, you're actually just being blamed for content that was older content that is reappearing in the Internet and reappearing in, you know, in significant ways.

01:36:26.420 I mean, I think we could all agree that during the premiere of a movie and the start of a movie, there's a public publicity campaign.

01:36:33.080 And, you know, that was another issue in in in why there was some organic hate.

01:36:37.460 But but ultimately, you know, I think that that, you know, when you're you're basically doing nothing but showing what already exists, whether something like that can be actionable.

01:36:51.500 OK, so if you're showing something like that exists, can it be actionable?

01:36:54.960 I thought he might have been intimating that it's possible those negative videos about Blake

01:37:02.180 were recirculated by some on Baldoni's team. I could be wrong, but I thought I gleaned that

01:37:09.240 from his answer. And that could be what she's trying to base her claim on. You know, that's

01:37:15.040 definitely her theory, which is that Baldoni's people pushed it. There was not a lot of proof

01:37:20.700 of that. There was a lot of proof that a bad PR wave overcame her around the time of this movie,

01:37:26.460 but not that Justin Baldoni caused it, that he was ready to do that, that he had hired PR people

01:37:33.400 to help him if he needed to do that. But there may be a question of whether if the PR people

01:37:39.800 working for Justin helped circulate those bad videos, is that worth $400 million as she's now

01:37:49.380 proclaiming. Right. I think that's the crux of everything in this. One of the reasons I find

01:37:55.380 this story so interesting and have from the beginning is it has potential to be a radicalizing

01:38:00.560 experience for young people who are interested in pop culture in the way that people who are

01:38:05.540 interested in politics have had some radicalizing experiences along the lines of what we were

01:38:09.820 talking about earlier in the show, where you have the clips versus the reality. And what we see in

01:38:14.800 that Vulture story, especially if you go back and read the original New York Times story that has

01:38:18.760 been questioned hugely throughout all of this, every step of the way, it's that you see how

01:38:26.040 there's a big business now in manipulating what was supposed to be the raw, authentic future of

01:38:32.820 the internet, which was social media. This has become a big corporate endeavor with millions,

01:38:39.320 sometimes billions of dollars on the line. And it is absolutely behind the scenes being manipulated

01:38:45.380 for business purposes for personal purposes with by people who have more power than you

01:38:50.680 who are trying to create these images and these actual narratives like they know perception is

01:38:57.660 reality and so they're trying to manipulate the perception that is one of the absolute most

01:39:02.300 fascinating things about this story is the chicken or the egg component were people organically

01:39:07.240 already starting to question Blake Lively amid this kind of vibe shift that was happening at

01:39:12.900 the time over like millennial feminism and how uh sort of weird it was and how outmoded it seemed

01:39:19.680 to gen z was that already percolating or was it planted uh or was it just part of like it

01:39:27.480 percolated organically and then it became part of this business strategy uh in baldoni's camp

01:39:34.080 to get his cut of the movie uh to win at the end of the day they're like manipulating screenings

01:39:39.980 it's just like the level to your point about how small celebrities can be small but then also in

01:39:45.860 this like what is even the right way to put it this strategic um grand plan to make more money

01:39:54.200 at the end of the day and protect their reputations like it's really amazing to see that in action when

01:39:59.580 you go behind the scenes so true there's there's one other i wanted to show from in the well which

01:40:05.680 you guys should check out. It's a new podcast with Matt Murphy and Mark Garagos, featuring

01:40:10.420 Brian Friedman this week, the lawyer for Justin Baldoni, SOT 33. The lost damages on a movie

01:40:17.040 that wasn't made would seem to me to be the most speculative type of damages that would 0.84

01:40:23.380 almost be garbage. So is that the argument? What was the argument? Well, some of the argument was,

01:40:30.160 you know, obviously that Wayfarer had the rights to the movie. So it was ultimately their decision

01:40:35.320 to whether to make the sequel or not and there was no you know you know there was no you know

01:40:41.020 decision made and possibly the sequel could never be made um that certainly um who was going to be

01:40:47.640 in the sequel or not and who is going to be participating and at what level even if one was

01:40:52.420 made was with some decision that wasn't even made yet and um and in fact sony who you know was a

01:40:59.000 co-financier of the movie um you know mr call grab reported in court that that um sony had

01:41:06.420 referred to blake lively as you know as a terrorist um and so there was no guarantee

01:41:12.900 that sony would want blake live that he'd be involved in the um in the sequel you know when

01:41:19.320 you're referring referring to someone as a terrorist incredibly telling and um you know

01:41:26.260 She's trying to get damages for a sequel to a movie that never had a sequel.

01:41:29.900 All right, got to run quickly, Emily.

01:41:31.000 You'll pick it up in a couple of minutes on the after show.

01:41:33.400 Thank you. 0.71

01:41:33.820 We're back tomorrow with Red Scare.

01:41:36.580 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

01:41:38.700 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:41:47.180 All right, full-time thoughts.

01:41:48.940 Craig, who stood out?

01:41:49.940 Brazil's lime cheesecake started bright, didn't let up.

01:41:52.460 Nah, for me, Italian cappuccino was the standout in the box.

01:41:55.440 But if we're talking decadent performance, that's all France.

01:41:58.380 Chocolate creme brulee had the richest finishes.

01:42:00.780 Canadian fireworks really showed up big, too.

01:42:02.760 And Mexico's caramel churro ice cap gave me chills.

01:42:06.280 We are, of course, talking about Tim's taste of the globe lineup.

01:42:09.160 New globally inspired Timbits and ice cap flavors available at Tim Horton's for a limited time.

01:42:13.680 Pick some up today.

01:42:14.680 And while you're at it, check out Footy Prime Daily.

The Megyn Kelly Show - May 04, 2026

Inspirational Kentucky Derby Winner, Viral Tucker-NYT Interview, and Blake-Baldoni Trial, with Emily Jashinsky ｜ Ep. 1309

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