The Megyn Kelly Show - Jack Smith vs. Trump Docs Case Judge, and Disturbing Rise of Assisted Suicide, with Mike Davis, Dave Aronberg, and Rupa Subramanya

00:00:00.660 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:00:12.340 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:15.380 Oh, we've got a great show for you today. I'm excited to bring you this show.

00:00:18.760 Later, we're going to bring you a deep dive into a subject that has been percolating up seemingly everywhere,

00:00:24.840 but we've never taken a deep dive into it. And that is the worldwide rise of young people

00:00:30.840 taking their own lives, choosing to die rather than to live in pain, even in just mental pain.

00:00:39.500 This is now being allowed in some places where you can die by suicide with the blessing of the state.

00:00:48.540 If like you're a little depressed, it's fine. They'll get involved at the federal government

00:00:52.520 level and say, yeah, fine by us. We'll help you. A journalist over at the Free Press who we've had

00:00:57.700 on before is going to bring us her exclusive reporting, which has been so shocking and eye

00:01:02.540 opening. It's all over X right now. And all these annoying accounts are stealing it and trying to

00:01:08.640 repost it as though it's theirs. It's not. It belongs to the Free Press. And Ruba, Ruba,

00:01:15.460 Suba, my forget, forgive me. It's a hard last name. I'll get it before she comes on. But she came on last

00:01:20.980 summer about that Canadian teacher who was bullied by the woke crowd and ultimately wound up taking

00:01:30.560 his life. Anyway, it's a fascinating discussion. Really looking forward to it. But today we're going

00:01:35.060 to begin with some bombshell developments in the cases and one in particular against Donald Trump

00:01:41.220 is special prosecutor Jack Smith's criminal case against the former president officially falling

00:01:47.340 apart. Smith exploding at the federal judge overseeing that case down in the Mar-a-Lago area.

00:01:55.320 Judge Aileen Cannon in his latest legal filing. You can feel his frustration. You actually don't

00:02:01.200 usually see this kind of heat over proposed jury instructions and certainly not from a former federal

00:02:06.300 prosecutor. But Jack Smith's team is accusing Judge Cannon of potentially distorting this trial

00:02:12.080 with, quote, fundamentally flawed scenarios. At the same time, some in the media are attacking

00:02:17.400 Judge Cannon, calling her rulings erroneous, wacko, and aimed at helping Trump. Wait a minute,

00:02:23.740 I thought we weren't allowed to attack judges. I thought we were just told that you weren't allowed

00:02:26.840 to do that. Here to break down this trial and all the others, two of our favorites, Mike Davis,

00:02:33.480 founder and president of the Article 3 Project, and Dave Ehrenberg, state attorney for Palm Beach

00:02:38.340 County, which is where Mar-a-Lago is, down in Florida. Guys, welcome back to the show.

00:02:46.280 Great to be back with you. Okay, so this is a little dense, but I feel strongly and I feel

00:02:52.920 confident that the three of us are going to be able to explain this to the audience in a way

00:02:56.520 that they can get. So Judge Aileen Cannon is trying to decide whether Trump improperly had all these

00:03:03.740 documents, uh, and improperly stored the documents and then didn't give the documents back. But the

00:03:09.100 question is, did he have documents he shouldn't have had down at Mar-a-Lago? And Trump has said

00:03:16.120 all along, I'm covered by the Presidential Records Act. And you know who else said that? Mike Davis on our

00:03:22.800 show, like two summers ago, Mike, you came on. This is when we first met you and you made the strong

00:03:28.540 case, like he's, he can do everything he did. He doesn't have to make special designations. He was

00:03:34.680 entitled to have all these documents and he didn't have to do anything special. And that's an affirmative

00:03:38.540 defense to all of these charges. Well, Trump's lawyers have just proposed Mike's exact argument

00:03:44.600 in their proposed jury instructions before the judge. And rather than saying, as so many on the left

00:03:51.740 did when they heard this argument from Mike and others, that's absurd. That's not what we're going

00:03:57.380 to put in a jury instruction. She did it. So she said to the lawyers, I want you to write me up jury

00:04:04.880 instructions based on the two, the following two alternative premises. One is the Mike Davis

00:04:11.400 argument that Trump was allowed to have it all. He didn't have to make any special designations.

00:04:16.640 And that's kind of an affirmative defense to all these charges against him. Uh, and that would be

00:04:21.220 one jury instruction, which would totally get Trump off entirely. And Jack Smith himself concedes that

00:04:26.320 in his papers saying, we basically, what the hell are you doing? What are you saying? If that's the

00:04:31.520 jury instruction, the case is over. So what are we doing here? The other instruction is a little bit

00:04:36.900 better for Jack Smith, but it's still not good for him. It's still not what he wants. He didn't get any

00:04:41.720 proposed jury instruction and instruct, uh, requirements that he wanted. The other one is,

00:04:46.660 okay, jury, you can look at whether a record retained by a former president, um, whether the

00:04:54.900 government has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that that record is either personal or presidential.

00:05:00.860 And the follow-up would be if it's presidential, he shouldn't have had it. If it's a personal record

00:05:06.460 under the presidential records act, he was allowed to have it. Now, keep in mind, Jack Smith is saying

00:05:11.200 the presidential records act doesn't apply at all here. I don't want to see the presidential

00:05:15.140 records act mentioned in jury instructions to the jury in this case at all. It doesn't,

00:05:22.160 it doesn't belong. And the reason he says it doesn't belong is because he's charging Trump

00:05:26.960 under the espionage statute. And he says, you don't get to say I had highly classified CIA briefings.

00:05:36.820 And I was, I was allowed to keep them forever as a personal document under the presidential records

00:05:42.860 act that the presidential records act is supposed to just say, Hey, if you made personal notes while

00:05:48.360 you were in the presidency that you want to take with you when you leave, okay, you can do it.

00:05:53.120 That's what Jack Smith is arguing. Like, why are we even talking about presidential records?

00:05:57.280 That's not a defense to espionage and taking documents that are highly classified. And both

00:06:02.000 of her proposed jury instructions that she wants them to give her like specific language on assume

00:06:07.560 number one, that the presidential records act does apply in this case, Jack Smith's mad. And in one

00:06:13.020 instance that therefore the jury has to decide just personal or professional, you know, 50, 50.

00:06:19.120 And if they go with personal Trump wins. And the second one is, as I said at the top that under the

00:06:25.540 presidential records act, it's ball game. President can do whatever the hell he wants. He can take

00:06:29.480 whatever the hell he wants. No special designations. The Mike Davis argument. Do I have my facts

00:06:34.440 generally correct? I'll start with you today, Dave. Good to see you.

00:06:38.360 Great to be back with you, Megan and Mike. You've got it right. And that's why Jack Smith was so upset

00:06:43.660 because the law says that the espionage act is the espionage act and obstruction is obstruction.

00:06:49.320 And there's nothing in the law that says the PRA, which was a law that was enacted after the Nixon

00:06:54.740 administration is allowed to override that. You quoted the PRA correctly. And what Judge Cannon came up

00:07:01.440 with were two scenarios that were completely erroneous. And that's why Jack Smith had a

00:07:06.340 conniption about it. In fact, I would love to see what he did behind the scenes. If you saw what he

00:07:10.120 did in his pleadings, this is a mild mannered guy normally. And so he's saying to the judge,

00:07:14.720 judge, you're wrong about this. And if you don't change your interpretation right now,

00:07:20.520 then we're going to go to the 11th circuit and get you reversed. And then there's the threat of

00:07:24.880 getting her removed from the case. So I do believe that this is a real understandable concern for Jack

00:07:32.700 Smith, and he will push that nuclear button if necessary. So normally you couldn't take such a

00:07:38.040 case up on immediate appeal where she ruled, this is the standard of law, or this is what I'm going to

00:07:42.880 do in a jury instruction. But he argues in this, you can, when you're proposed jury instruction as a

00:07:48.080 judge, it completely eliminates the prosecution's chances at getting a conviction. He says that.

00:07:55.120 Go ahead, Dave. I'll let you finish.

00:07:57.640 Yeah, Megan, absolutely right. And here's the issue. What Judge Cannon did was not a final order. So

00:08:02.640 you can't really appeal it yet. And so that's why Jack Smith is not appealing what she did. What

00:08:07.080 Judge Cannon said is, I want you parties to engage in the following. So it's not really a direct,

00:08:13.680 specific order. And that's why Jack Smith is saying, hey, be specific. And if you want to dismiss

00:08:17.680 this case, then do it, because then we can appeal you. But if you wait and you adopt this

00:08:23.260 later on, or you dismiss the case during trial, then we're screwed. Then we cannot appeal it,

00:08:27.980 because double jeopardy attaches once a jury has been seated. So either dismiss this case now,

00:08:34.100 or make it specific that these are the jury instructions you are going to use. Don't use

00:08:38.740 these weasel words of engage that prevents us from appealing, because we are ready to appeal unless

00:08:44.540 you change your ways. Mike, kudos to you in driving the main defense, which now has persuaded this

00:08:53.140 judge, at least in part. You've called this, really, I remember this, because we were all kind

00:08:57.980 of confused about the Presidential Records Act. And you came out swinging. I didn't know you. I was like,

00:09:02.260 who is this guy? He's brilliant. Listen to this argument. We had you on. You spelled it all out.

00:09:06.560 People mocked you. They're, oh, who's that? Here it is. It is his defense. And this judge

00:09:12.500 has bought it, at least in part, because Presidential Records Act is both in number one

00:09:17.140 and number two. And number two is the Mike Davis defense entirely, which has got Jack Smith spitting

00:09:23.340 mad today. Well, I mean, people say that I'm crazy, but I tend to be right. And I would say this,

00:09:32.080 that I didn't make up this legal theory. This was a 2012 decision by an Obama judge,

00:09:39.680 Judge Amy Berman Jackson, when President Clinton had eight years, 79 tapes of audio recordings

00:09:47.640 in his sock drawer. And these audio recordings were recorded by the White House Deputy Chief of Staff

00:09:53.920 for Operations. So they're definitely White House records. And there were recordings of President

00:09:59.600 Clinton's conversations with his national security officials, his foreign leaders, many other highly

00:10:08.320 classified, born classified, the most classified secrets imaginable, the thought process of the

00:10:15.540 president on national security matters. And when Tom Fitton, a judicial watch, sued for these records,

00:10:22.200 that's where we got the Clinton-Sartre case in 2012, that this judge said that there are presidential

00:10:28.880 records that belong to the government, but the president can access them anytime he wants. He can have his

00:10:34.760 records anytime he wants, even if the government owns them, or they could be personal records. And the mere facts

00:10:40.800 that President Clinton took these highly classified recordings out of the White House with him and did not turn them

00:10:47.500 over to the archives when he left office, deemed them personal under the Presidential Records Act. You may not like that

00:10:53.720 ruling. You may think that ruling is incorrect, but that is the ruling of that 2012 judge. And Judge Cannon is following that precedent.

00:11:03.800 Hmm. Just on the question of whether he can appeal her immediately, Dave, he writes the following in his brief.

00:11:11.520 It is vitally important that the court promptly decide whether the unstated legal premise underlying this

00:11:17.280 recent order does, in the court's view, represent a correct formulation of the law. If the court wrongly

00:11:23.520 concludes that it does, and that it intends to include the PRA, Presidential Records Act, in the jury

00:11:28.940 instructions regarding what's authorized under Section 793, which is the Espionage Act, it must inform the

00:11:34.940 parties of that decision well in advance of trial. The government must have the opportunity to consider

00:11:38.780 appellate review well before Jeopardy attaches, which is when you swear in the jury. Then he cites

00:11:43.760 two cases for the following premises. The adoption of a clearly erroneous jury instruction

00:11:51.660 that entails a high probability of failure of a prosecution, a failure the government could not

00:11:57.640 then seek to remedy by appeal or otherwise, constitutes the kind of extraordinary situation in which we are

00:12:02.460 empowered to issue the writ of mandamus. That was citing to an appellate court, and then a similar

00:12:08.020 finding in another appellate court case from a different jurisdiction. So he's saying,

00:12:14.000 if you're going to stand by this, and these are the two proposed jury instructions we're having to

00:12:19.540 choose between, I'm going to mandamus you. I'm taking it up to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals,

00:12:24.500 and I'm going to have your bosses slap your hand and get this taken care of right away. But the problem,

00:12:30.000 Dave, if he does that, if Eileen Cannon, Aileen, does this, and then Jack Smith does the mandamus,

00:12:36.980 it's more delay, which works for Trump.

00:12:41.100 Agreed. But if you come at it from my perspective, which was this case was never going to go to trial

00:12:46.800 before the election, then I think Jack Smith has no choice. I think knowing that this case was always

00:12:52.880 going to be pushed back, this case has been a slow walk from the beginning, that he's got to go to

00:12:57.620 the 11th Circuit, but he can't do it yet. This is the frustration for Jack Smith. It's not just that

00:13:01.460 he sees this as an erroneous interpretation of the law, but it's that he's not able to appeal it yet

00:13:08.040 because Judge Cannon is saying, let's just engage. This is not a final order. These aren't the jury

00:13:13.540 instructions. And number one, you don't do jury instructions this far out. There's not even a

00:13:17.680 trial date set. I've never seen jury instructions being proposed this far out. And number two,

00:13:22.280 if you're going to give jury instructions, do it. Then Jack Smith can appeal it. But if she

00:13:26.560 continues down this road and said, let's discuss it, and then issues her final jury instructions

00:13:31.500 in the middle of trial, which is what normally happens, then Jack Smith is done because he cannot

00:13:36.940 appeal it. It's over, double jeopardy attaches, and he sees this case slipping away if that happens.

00:13:42.240 That's why he got so hot under the collar. He's not as bad off if they wind up with the first jury

00:13:51.740 instruction. The second one that says, as she puts it, I'll paraphrase here, quoting here actually

00:14:01.160 from Annie McCarthy's paraphrase of her proposal on a second. Under the Presidential Records Act,

00:14:05.760 this is the devastating one, Jack Smith's case. Under the PRA, while a presidential term is ongoing,

00:14:11.740 only the president has authority to categorize records as personal or presidential,

00:14:15.600 and neither a court nor a jury may review that decision. Moreover, because the PRA defines no

00:14:21.900 formal means by which a president must make that categorization, it must be inferred from a former

00:14:27.280 president's retention of a record that he had categorized it as personal while president.

00:14:33.220 Andy goes on to say, Dave Ehrenberg agrees, Mike does, I do. I haven't seen any dissent from anybody on

00:14:38.560 this next point. Quote, this would ask jurors, this is Andy, to assume that Trump had complete authority

00:14:44.540 to take the records he wanted from the White House under the PRA. And Andy goes on to say,

00:14:51.760 one must assume that Prosecutor Smith and his staff were dumbfounded upon reading this order.

00:14:56.120 The second scenario is Trump's defense. If Cannon ultimately decides that it is an accurate

00:15:02.480 statement of the law, this case cannot survive. These 32 counts against him in the Florida case

00:15:09.280 cannot survive. So this is true. Like if, if she's telegraphing where she actually stands on this,

00:15:14.780 this may be her ruling that this will be the jury instruction or that she finds is a matter of law.

00:15:19.920 I mean, like that's one of the things I want to get to, but in any event, it's possible the 11th

00:15:23.500 circuit will not accept mandamus. They might not, or they might take it and affirm her. It's over.

00:15:29.560 The Florida case is done. Correct, Mike? Yes. And it should have never been brought.

00:15:35.580 Dave said that this case has been slow walks since the start. He's right. The Biden Justice

00:15:40.820 Department waited 30 months to bring this indictment, right? And it is, they, they had,

00:15:46.500 they had the Presidential Records Act listed in their unprecedented search warrant of the Office

00:15:52.000 of Former Presidents when they got that warrant from the biased magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhardt,

00:15:57.160 who had just recused from Trump's civil case against Hillary Clinton six weeks prior because

00:16:02.380 of his Facebook book post trashing Trump. Somehow that judicial bias went away, but they had the

00:16:08.280 Presidential Records Act listed in the search warrant, but they don't have it listed in the

00:16:12.960 indictment because Jack Smith knows that the Presidential Records Act kills his case.

00:16:18.660 Hmm. The, um, the other question I have, which I just made a reference to is why is this even

00:16:27.140 arguably Dave being kicked to a jury? If the Presidential Records Act is a defense to the accusation that you

00:16:36.440 committed espionage by having classified CIA documents, or if it isn't, that's for Judge Cannon

00:16:44.640 to decide. Why would she propose a jury instruction asking the jury to decide that?

00:16:52.180 Exactly, Megan. There's nothing I can add to what you just said. It makes no sense. Even Donald Trump

00:16:56.740 seems to oppose that. He likes the second jury instruction, which is the equivalent of a get

00:17:00.940 out of jail free card. It's over if that second jury instruction is adopted. If the first one's adopted,

00:17:07.020 Jack Smith has a chance. But why is the jury going to be determining whether the PRA makes certain

00:17:12.680 documents exempt from espionage laws and obstruction and all this stuff? That's not how it works. That's

00:17:17.260 not the law. The jury is not supposed to be doing that. It's a question of law, not a question of

00:17:22.020 fact. And questions of law are decided by the judge, not the jury. Yeah. How the hell is the jury supposed

00:17:28.140 to know whether the Presidential Records Act is a, is a defense to the Espionage Act? Like that's so

00:17:34.540 complex. Most lawyers can't even understand that, but certainly not the, the jury's not going to know.

00:17:40.140 So if it seems to me, Mike, like the judge needs to find her spine and say, this is what I find.

00:17:47.880 If this is what she thinks she should say what you said, the Mike Davis defense, the Presidential

00:17:53.460 Records Act is an affirmative defense to the Espionage Act charges. And therefore I find it

00:17:58.340 applies. And in this case is going away before we ever get to a jury. I don't get why she's trying

00:18:02.400 to toss this to the jury. Well, no, she's the jury instructions are the statements of the law from

00:18:08.880 the judge and that the jury has to follow the jury instructions. They have to follow the law,

00:18:13.380 but they still have to make factual determinations. And there's still an obstruction. There are still

00:18:17.440 obstruction charges with this case. There are still factual determinations that they may have to make

00:18:24.200 that, you know, did, did the president, did President Trump not turn these over to the archives

00:18:30.940 when he left the White House? And if he did not turn them over to the archives, does that mean he deemed

00:18:35.940 them personal? I mean, I don't understand what, what, what jury instructions, those are matters of

00:18:41.360 law, not factual determinations. But I mean, the, the instruction seems to eat up all the decisions

00:18:50.220 the jury would have to make on anything, not obstruction. Obstruction is, that's the second

00:18:54.700 piece of the case. So that actually could potentially still stand because he had these documents and he

00:18:59.440 had a subpoena to turn them over and he didn't turn them over. But the, the crux of the case is that

00:19:04.740 you had these documents that were classified and you didn't, you shouldn't have had them.

00:19:08.600 And what she's saying in this second jury instruction is under the PRA, while a term is

00:19:14.840 ongoing presidential term, only the president has the authority to say whether they're personal or

00:19:18.640 presidential and neither a court nor a jury may review that. Okay. And then because the PRA defines

00:19:24.640 no formal means by which a president must make the categorization, it must be inferred from a former

00:19:29.660 president's retention of a record that he had categorized it as personal while president.

00:19:34.000 Well, that's, that takes away all the decision. What, what decisions does the jury have still to

00:19:41.600 make if this is the jury instruction, Dave? Yeah. Megan, there were more than 300 documents with

00:19:48.560 classified markings that were covered from Trump. How in the world could that be considered personal

00:19:54.980 documents? That's not how the PRA works. The PRA doesn't overcome the whole classification process.

00:20:00.160 And it's definitely not for a jury to decide that. And that's why I think we can all agree,

00:20:04.860 whether you agree with the second instruction or not, and that's where Mike and I would differ,

00:20:09.000 but I can't imagine anyone thinking that this is all a jury question as a matter of fact,

00:20:13.880 rather than a matter of law. Go ahead, Mike.

00:20:17.280 No, it's because she's, she's instructing the jury on the law. And then you look at

00:20:21.780 the willful retention of those documents and the obstruction, right? So they're going to have to

00:20:27.240 make factual determinations on willful retention and obstruction after she instructs them on what

00:20:33.780 the president can and cannot do. Just to clarify, you're getting to after he got the subpoena,

00:20:38.380 after Trump got the subpoena for the dollars. Yes. That's the whole point of this is that

00:20:41.280 Jack Smith is charging willful retention under the Espionage Act.

00:20:47.180 Right. But Megan, your position is this, this second jury instruction is potentially it is

00:20:54.100 alien cannon making a ruling that the PRA allows Trump to do whatever he wanted with respect to

00:21:01.000 holding onto the documents. And now jurors, you're only dealing with what happened to post

00:21:06.060 subpoena because look, I mean, for the audience at home, I got a bunch of documents sitting right

00:21:10.580 here on my desk. I'm allowed to have these. There's absolutely no question. I'm entitled to

00:21:14.200 them. They're my documents. They're personal, they're professional, but they're mine. But if

00:21:17.900 the feds subpoenaed these documents for some reason, I would have to turn them over unless

00:21:23.720 they were attorney client privilege. I'd have to give that. I might not want to give them up.

00:21:27.100 They're my notes. But once you get a federal subpoena, you have to turn them over. So those

00:21:30.980 are the two pieces of the case. And so what you're saying, Mike, is this is telegraphing. Yes,

00:21:35.640 I will remove the all of the counts from the jury about whether he wrongfully had the documents to

00:21:42.900 begin with and craft me an instruction that speaks only to did he comply with the subpoena?

00:21:48.600 Yeah, well, there's willful retention of the Espionage Act and there's obstruction. And but

00:21:53.400 yeah, you're going to where you're going to have a bigger problem with this be separate from the

00:21:59.500 personal records versus presidential records, the personal records that belong to the president,

00:22:04.940 the presidential records that belong to the government. Under the Presidential Records Act,

00:22:10.360 he is allowed to access, he's allowed to have his presidential records anytime he wants. That

00:22:17.260 includes any document created or received by the president or his White House staff. And so if the

00:22:23.440 CIA drafts an intel assessment and gives it to the president, that is a presidential record, right?

00:22:30.340 And so he's allowed to have his presidential records, whether he deems them personal that

00:22:35.960 belong to him or presidential records that belong to the government that he can access anytime he

00:22:41.040 want. Remember, before the Presidential Records Act, presidents were allowed to keep all of their

00:22:46.680 all of their presidential records were personal records that belong to the president. Personally,

00:22:52.340 Nixon was trying to hawk his presidential records. And that's why they passed

00:22:56.100 the presidential records act. But there is no criminal component to the presidential records

00:23:01.780 act. There's a separate federal records act that deals with all the other government records besides

00:23:07.180 presidential records. But the presidential records act is controlling here. And it's not espionage

00:23:12.560 for a former president to have his presidential records. It's allowed by the presidential records act.

00:23:18.320 And I've been saying this for nearly two years. Mm hmm. You have here's when I interviewed Trump in

00:23:24.480 September, we got into this exact thing. We you know, he that it was it was as if you two and I

00:23:33.260 had sat down and had a strategy session about what to ask Trump before the interview, because

00:23:37.300 you'll see I I'm asking him these very questions and how he answered them was interesting. And I will say

00:23:44.940 even in the moment and thereafter has been a reminder to me that Trump is smart. He is a clever guy. And

00:23:50.700 he saw me coming, you know, from a mile away and he knew right when to get out of bounds or when to

00:23:56.700 stay in the ring. It's he's clever, you know, because his freedom is on the line and he must be. But he's

00:24:02.060 clearly been paying attention. Watch what happened. The obstruction says, OK, so even if you had the

00:24:08.540 right to the documents, once you get the subpoena, you got to fork them over. The subpoena said give us

00:24:13.100 anything with a market. Are you ready? Go ahead. This is just like the Mueller stuff.

00:24:17.180 They create a fake crime and then they say you obstructed. I have been complied with everything.

00:24:24.380 They took documents that they weren't even allowed to do, but they took documents. They took everything.

00:24:30.300 They found documents with classified markets. I have and I would have given it to them. All I know is

00:24:34.140 I'm allowed to have those documents. But that but once you get a subpoena, you have to turn them over.

00:24:37.740 I know this. I don't even know that because I have the right to have those documents. So I don't

00:24:44.220 really know that. I don't think there's any dispute that I'm covered under the Presidential Records Act.

00:24:48.460 Well, you're covered, but it's not clear that it allowed you to take all those documents. You can't

00:24:52.220 say it. It says it says what it says. You're allowed. And do you believe that every CIA document

00:24:57.100 that came to you as president was automatically yours to keep no matter what? I'm not going to answer

00:25:01.100 that question. So that's the dispute. No, no. I did absolutely nothing wrong. And I wouldn't even be

00:25:07.820 talking to you if I thought I did. So it's pretty telling, right, where he's like, I'm not going to

00:25:15.180 answer that one because that question got right down to the heart of what we're arguing. Does the CIA

00:25:20.860 highly classified briefings to the president in a document become the president's property to do with

00:25:27.340 what he wants just because he has it? Right. That's kind of what I'm asking there. And he knows

00:25:33.180 enough to know that's too controversial for me to just say yes to, even though it appears to be what

00:25:38.940 he did. He you know, he's arguing the Mike Davis argument, which is yes. Yes, that is what I believe.

00:25:43.820 But he didn't want to quite go that far. Go ahead, Dave. Megan, it is telling, though, that Trump never

00:25:49.260 raised this as a defense until much later. This is indeed the Mike Davis defense. Not until Mike Davis

00:25:54.780 brought this up. Was this adopted as a defense? Because Jack Smith cites in his pleadings,

00:25:59.660 he said that we have spoken to all these witnesses at the White House. No one ever heard Donald Trump

00:26:04.220 consider these documents presidential records or personal records. He's never spoken about it.

00:26:08.380 It was never even brought up until later. And that's apparently the time when Mike Davis,

00:26:13.100 smart lawyer as he is, brought it up and then they adopted it. So to be presidential records,

00:26:17.660 you have to believe that they are personal records. But in any event, in any event, it doesn't matter

00:26:22.220 because classified documents are classified documents. And even if you believe you own them,

00:26:26.700 you don't any more than you own Air Force One.

00:26:30.620 Well, this is what Judge Cannon needs to decide. Meantime, and we'll watch it. Obviously,

00:26:35.420 this this has huge implications for how this case is going to go forward, when it's going to go forward,

00:26:39.100 if it's going to go forward. Meantime, there has been shock and horror in the press over this,

00:26:46.780 what Judge Cannon is doing. As you point out, she hasn't actually made the ruling of what the jury

00:26:51.820 instruction will be yet. But she's clearly entertaining two possibilities only. And

00:26:57.580 neither is particularly great for Jack Smith. So here's just a sampling of what we've heard

00:27:02.780 in response. I'm concerned about her handling this case. I'm not sure she has the legal acumen.

00:27:10.220 I don't have confidence in her abilities to be fair or to be seen as fair.

00:27:15.820 I don't think her conduct is baffling. I think it's intentional. So she is consistently making

00:27:23.500 erroneous legal decisions. They are consistently always on the side of Donald Trump.

00:27:29.020 If she makes these wacko rulings like she made last time, she's got at least a pinky finger

00:27:36.060 on the scales of justice for Donald Trump.

00:27:38.860 So to correct myself, that was a soft montage of criticism of Judge Cannon even prior to now.

00:27:45.980 But I could have put one together in response to this ruling too. They're upset. And they're on

00:27:50.220 Jack Smith's side. They share his outrage. This is unfair and so on and so forth. But out of the

00:27:54.940 same, out of the other side of their mouths, Mike, they're very, very upset at Donald Trump being

00:28:01.820 critical of the judges. They could say whatever they want. Michael Cohen can say whatever he wants

00:28:07.180 about Donald Trump. So can Stormy Daniels and the pundits can say whatever they want about this

00:28:11.260 judge. The one thing that cannot happen is that the defendant in these four cases be critical of

00:28:18.140 the judges because somehow they're transforming that into, quote, threats that the judges are being

00:28:25.340 threatened and that he therefore has to be gagged. We have seen him gagged in the New York criminal case,

00:28:32.940 though not when it comes to criticizing the judge himself and not when it comes to criticizing D.A.

00:28:39.180 Alvin Bragg. But what we've heard is this sanctimonious, you know, parade of witnesses

00:28:44.460 on the left saying how wrong it is to, quote, attack a judge. While I just played you right there,

00:28:49.980 some of the criticisms Judge Cannon has received. And by the way, she too has had death threats from

00:28:56.700 anti-Trump lunatics who promised to kill her, one of whom has already been sent to jail. It does happen.

00:29:04.620 But these same people who were so outraged that Trump had some criticism of Judge Merchan in New York

00:29:11.420 had no problem with Eric Holder or any of these other people and their criticisms of Judge Cannon.

00:29:15.580 What do you make of it? Well, I would say this. If there's anyone on the planet who must have the

00:29:21.820 constitutional right to speak out about the judge, about his staff, about the prosecutor,

00:29:28.940 about the witnesses, about the potential conflict of interest of the judge with his adult children,

00:29:36.700 with the process, it is a criminal defendant going through a criminal process. He has the absolute

00:29:42.620 First Amendment right to speak out about those issues. He has the Sixth Amendment right to a fair

00:29:48.700 public and speedy trial. He has the right to confront witnesses. And to label as a violent threat

00:29:55.900 when a criminal defendant brings forward evidence of potential bias by the judge is the most dangerous

00:30:02.780 thing I can imagine in our judicial system. That criminal defendants are punished,

00:30:08.780 they're unconstitutionally, illegally gagged, and illegal prior restraint on free speech. It hobbles

00:30:16.380 their ability to have a fair trial, to have due process. And take Trump out of the picture. If they were

00:30:22.700 doing this to any other criminal defendants, these same people would be outraged. But because this is

00:30:28.700 Donald Trump, they have a different set of rules. They have Trump derangement syndrome. Remember,

00:30:34.140 these same people who are going crazy because President Trump correctly raised evidence that

00:30:39.020 Judge Mershon, who donated to President Biden in 2020, a small amount, and donated to another

00:30:45.020 anti-Trump group in 2020, a small amount. His adult daughter, according to the New York Post,

00:30:50.540 is making a lot of money fundraising for Democrats, including fundraising for this trial over which

00:30:57.820 her father is presiding, the one that starts in about one week, a week from Monday. And so,

00:31:03.980 of course, President Trump is going to raise this issue of bias. And when he does that,

00:31:09.100 it should not be labeled a violent threat. And for a federal judge to go on CNN, Reggie Walton,

00:31:16.540 from DC to do this, that is outrageous. That violates the judicial cannons.

00:31:21.180 Let me show the audience what you're talking about. This is where I was going. This is the

00:31:26.860 federal judge who tried the Scooter Libby trial back in the day, Dick Cheney's right-hand man's chief

00:31:32.780 of staff for alleged leaking. And he oversaw this case, Reggie Walton, US District Court judge in the

00:31:41.420 District of DC. And he did an extraordinary, and I believe inappropriate thing. He went on CNN and he gave

00:31:50.140 an interview to Caitlin Collins, and he started ripping on Trump. He was reacting to Trump's

00:31:56.460 criticism of Judge Mershon in the New York criminal case about the Stormy Daniels hush money payment.

00:32:03.900 I'm sure he's got a lot of thoughts on it. The judge should have kept quiet. He should have shared

00:32:08.460 them with his wife, not with Caitlin Collins, because now he's in a lot of trouble because Mike

00:32:13.980 Davis saw the segment and we'll get to what happened. But listen to what he said.

00:32:17.420 It's very disconcerting to have someone making comments about a judge. And it's particularly

00:32:25.900 problematic when those comments are in the form of a threat, especially if they're directed at one's

00:32:32.140 family. But do you think that's something that Donald Trump considers when he posts something like this?

00:32:39.020 I can't get into someone's mind to say whether they appreciate the impact that they're doing,

00:32:45.180 but I would think that any reasonable thinking person would appreciate that when they say things that

00:32:51.500 can sometimes resonate with others. I think it's very important that people in positions of authority

00:32:57.660 be very circumspect in reference to the things that they say.

00:33:01.820 I keep looking for Trump's threat against Judge Murchon and his daughter, and I don't see it. I see

00:33:12.140 criticism, strong criticism. He calls the daughter and the Murchon family Trump haters, pointed out her

00:33:20.860 job, Loren, the daughter, in an April 2023 post, as you just did, says she's a rabid Trump hater who's

00:33:29.020 admitted to having conversations with her father about me, and yet he gagged me. She works for

00:33:32.540 crooked Joe Biden, Harris, Adam Shifty Schiff, and other radical leftists who campaign on getting

00:33:37.020 Trump and fundraise off of the Biden indictments, including this witch hunt, which her father

00:33:40.940 presides over, a total conflict. Again, just the other day, Judge Juan Murchon, who's suffering from

00:33:49.020 an acute case of Trump derangement syndrome, whose daughter represents Crooked Joe, Kamala,

00:33:52.780 shifty shift, has just posted a picture of me behind bars. We talked about the correction on that,

00:33:58.220 her obvious goal, and makes it completely impossible for me to get a fair trial,

00:34:02.460 has now issued another illegal un-American unconstitutional order as he continues to try

00:34:06.380 to take away my rights. There's no threat. I don't, there's nothing, there is no threat. And by the way,

00:34:12.380 you can be arrested for threatening a judge. He wasn't, and there's a reason he wasn't. So before we

00:34:18.300 get to what Mike did in response to Judge Walton, Dave, do you agree that there's no threat that

00:34:23.980 Trump, while he's been incendiary about Judge Murchon and, you know, been critical of the

00:34:28.220 daughter, he has not threatened them? Yeah, I think it's incendiary. And as far as him personally

00:34:35.900 threatening them, no, I don't think it rose that far. But I do have some concerns that when Trump goes

00:34:42.700 on social media and he says stuff like that, we've seen it before, that his rabid supporters will go

00:34:48.700 ahead and make death threats and attack. And that's the problem. You know, you really do harm the trial

00:34:56.300 when the judge now has to look over his shoulder every time and the witnesses feel threatened because

00:35:02.380 of Trump supporters. Trump knows what he's doing with his words. I mean, we've seen it before. Cesar

00:35:06.460 Sayak, the nut down here in South Florida, who sent bombs to members of Congress who opposed Trump.

00:35:11.980 We saw the guy who showed up outside Obama's house because Trump doxed Obama in Georgetown.

00:35:17.500 You know, we've seen it. So that's the concern. And that's why one thing to know is that defendants

00:35:21.900 don't have the same First Amendment rights as the rest of us. It's one thing for a legal commentator

00:35:25.980 on TV like Andrew Weissman to say it. But when a defendant says it, it can run afoul of the rules

00:35:32.460 and the law because defendants, when they go to first appearance, are told you can't contact witnesses,

00:35:36.300 you can't contact the victim, you can't even drink alcohol or do drugs in some cases that we have.

00:35:43.100 So they don't have the same rights as we all do. So my concern is not necessarily that his words are

00:35:47.740 direct threat to the judge, it's that it's going to be interpreted by his supporters to go ahead

00:35:51.980 and go after the judge's family and the witness's family, and it amounts to intimidation.

00:35:56.300 Mike, your thoughts? That is an interesting take by Dave, and I like Dave, so I won't criticize him.

00:36:06.540 I would say this, that if anyone must have the ability to speak out against the judge and his

00:36:14.140 potential bias, it is a criminal defendant. And we don't have Heckler's vetoes where because someone

00:36:20.620 may misconstrue that the defendants outraged by this evidence of bias that some deranged lunatic

00:36:27.740 may threaten the judge. That's not how it works. I don't remember this Judge Reggie Walton raising any

00:36:33.980 concern, especially not moonlighting on CNN, when the Biden White House press secretary and the Biden

00:36:40.700 Justice Department encouraged the illegal obstruction of justice campaigns for months outside of the homes

00:36:47.820 of conservative Supreme Court justices and their families, even after they went to safe houses,

00:36:54.140 even after the 1 a.m. assassination attempt against Justice Kavanaugh, his wife, Ashley,

00:36:59.260 their two teenage daughters. I don't remember Judge Reggie Walton going on CNN after Judge Eileen Cannon

00:37:06.060 got death threats, including people convicted, as you said, Megan. This is selective outrage by Judge Reggie

00:37:13.100 Walton. And it shows that he could be political here. And maybe that's why the judicial candidates

00:37:18.460 tell judges to keep on their judicial robes and not crawl into the political arena, especially

00:37:24.300 not moonlight on CNN during a criminal trial. Right on. Very powerful argument. And that's why

00:37:31.260 you did what? Tell us what you did. Well, the Article III project, the right wing, as we're called,

00:37:37.420 the group that I run, filed a judicial misconduct complaint against Judge Reggie Walton for violating

00:37:47.020 Canon 3A6, which says this, quote, a judge should not make comments on the merits of a matter pending

00:37:54.540 or impending in any court. And Judge Walton clearly did that. And it's not an accident. This was a pre-planned

00:38:01.260 case interview. And he had to have known that this would taint four different jury pools. Trump is

00:38:07.420 facing a criminal trial in New York in about one week. He's facing a criminal trial in D.C. He's

00:38:13.980 facing a criminal trial in Georgia and in Atlanta. He's facing a criminal trial down by Dave in the

00:38:20.940 Southern District of Florida. These judges need to learn to keep their mouths shut. And it violates the

00:38:27.020 judicial cannons when they don't. And this is part of a pattern by these D.C. federal judges.

00:38:34.140 Beryl Howell did this, gave a speech. Congresswoman Elise Stefanik filed a judicial misconduct complaint

00:38:40.780 against her. What these federal judges need to understand is they need to keep on their judicial

00:38:46.300 robes. They need to stay out of the political arena. They definitely need to stay off CNN. And if they don't

00:38:52.140 clean up their own house, I guarantee you that Congress will do it for them.

00:38:56.220 Yeah. Talk to your wife. Talk to your, write it in your diary. You don't have to go talk to

00:39:01.420 Caitlyn Collins. That's the thing about this judge, Dave, in sentencing some of the J6 defendants who

00:39:05.580 have come before him. He has said he's unsure how people live with themselves when they call January 6th

00:39:12.140 defendants political prisoners. He's criticized people who are following, quote, the calls of a demagogue.

00:39:18.860 He said, I think our democracy is in trouble because unfortunately we have charlatans like

00:39:24.460 our former president who in who doesn't, in my view, really care about democracy, but only about

00:39:30.620 power. He's tearing the country apart. Or as a result of that, it's tearing the country apart.

00:39:35.820 This judge is obviously a Trump hater. He's not, to be clear again for the audience, trying any current

00:39:41.580 Trump cases. He's the one who decided to, as Mike points out, moonlight on CNN as a CNN commentator

00:39:47.900 to come out to say how terrible it is for Trump to allegedly threaten judges, meaning Judge Mershon,

00:39:54.540 which he hasn't done. He's wrong on every front here, Dave. And you tell me whether something should

00:39:59.980 happen to him. Yeah, I understand why Mike Davis issued the complaint. I was surprised when the

00:40:06.780 federal judge went on national TV and said, I think a lot of us understandably were surprised.

00:40:12.220 But kudos to Mike Davis. He not only is a legal analyst with you, Megan, he's also a newsmaker.

00:40:17.580 Here he is on, I see it all over the place. He's Trump ally. He's called a Kavanaugh ally,

00:40:23.980 right-wing jurist. I don't know what to call him, but yeah, you've been very busy, Mike. And as far as

00:40:30.860 his complaint, I looked up the canon he cited, and it's canon 3A6 of the code of conduct for judges.

00:40:39.340 And here's the part that matters. It says this, a judge should not make public comment on the merits

00:40:44.060 of a matter pending or impending in any court. And I don't think he spoke on the substance of the trial,

00:40:51.340 but he did speak, I think, on the substance of the gag order in that sense. So in that narrow sense,

00:40:58.060 could he get in trouble for speaking out about a matter before the court? That's the gag order,

00:41:02.860 perhaps. And that's where he may have some issues, but I don't think his words got to the substance

00:41:07.660 of the case. And so it's not as cut and dry, but I will admit that it did seem, let's just say,

00:41:13.740 unusual to see a federal judge on Kaylin Collins' show. I know it was, he just couldn't control

00:41:20.420 himself. He couldn't help himself. And by the way, not for nothing, but like, I know some federal judges

00:41:25.820 and they've definitely got thoughts that they will share with you privately, but they would never

00:41:30.940 come on my show to tell you exactly what they think about the Trump trials or whatever. It's like,

00:41:36.440 they understand, like, there's a very high bar of behavior required of DAs like Dave and Fannie

00:41:45.100 and of judges, like higher even than regular lawyers. And most of them live up to that.

00:41:51.620 Stand by, quick break, back with you guys. There's more to go before you guys go. Stay with us.

00:41:57.740 He could be looking at jail. If you have someone who's contrite, if you have someone who shares that

00:42:02.580 he's respectful of the rule of law, that this was an aberration, that is something that the court can

00:42:09.040 take into account. But if you think that the defendant actually is running basically as an outlaw

00:42:15.760 and is basically thumbing his nose at the judicial process and it shows no sign of remorse and

00:42:22.920 essentially is a recidivist, those are factors that a judge can consider.

00:42:27.340 That's former federal prosecutor Andrew Weissman. Welcome back to the Megyn Kelly show. Mike Davis,

00:42:32.440 Dave Ehrenberg remain with me, suggesting that Trump could be looking at jail time in the Judge

00:42:39.520 Mershon case in that Stormy Daniels Hush Money case. Jail time because he's a recidivist, Mike? What?

00:42:48.920 Andrew Weissman is such a partisan blowhard. It's just comical to watch him on. He just like,

00:42:55.520 he's put down his glass of wine and does MSNBC hits on a regular basis every night. It's just hilarious.

00:43:01.360 Remember what they're alleging in New York. You have this Soros-funded Manhattan DA bringing this unprecedented

00:43:09.700 indictment against President Trump under the theory that these time-barred, at best, misdemeanor bookkeeping

00:43:17.660 charges for President Trump paying off a nuisance claim somehow got transit formed into like 34 felony campaign

00:43:27.760 finance violations. The prior Manhattan DA, Cy Vance, the Manhattan U.S. Attorney, the Federal Election

00:43:34.820 Commission, and Alvin Bragg himself declined to prosecute this bogus legal theory. It wasn't until

00:43:40.840 Matthew Colangelo got sent from the Biden Justice Department, a senior political operative,

00:43:46.300 to bring the first indictment ever against a former president and a likely future president.

00:43:51.920 And if Democrats think they're going to put President Trump in prison over this,

00:43:55.860 I welcome it because that will guarantee that President Trump wins by like five points on

00:44:02.400 November 5th, 2024, because this is the dumbest case. You're somebody who actually does put people

00:44:08.120 in jail. Is that, I mean, legitimately, is there any possibility Trump goes to jail if convicted in

00:44:14.260 this Dormy Daniels-Hashmani case? Megan, it's possible. I don't think it's likely, but I do think it's

00:44:19.840 possible. I would disagree with Andrew Weissman. What are the odds? Would it do like a 90-10? What

00:44:23.480 is it? I think a 25% chance he gets a jail sentence, a prison sentence. Is that high?

00:44:31.120 Yeah, because I do think the one thing Andrew Weissman, I think, said that I agree with is that

00:44:36.380 he could, based on his behavior, the judge can take all that into account, his lack of remorse and

00:44:42.440 the fact that he's been doing it for years. I wouldn't call him a recidivist, though, because when we use

00:44:46.540 recidivism here at the local level, it's more like a career criminal with a long rap sheet.

00:44:51.940 Yeah, and even though he's been charged in three other cases, he's never been convicted of anything

00:44:56.300 in the past. I would say this. I've met Andrew Weissman back at MSNBC. Mike, that's a network

00:45:02.060 that you don't get in your home, but I met Andrew Weissman. He's actually a nice guy, and he's on all

00:45:10.480 the time. So yeah, I disagree with him on calling him a recidivist, but I do think there's a 25% chance

00:45:15.400 he gets prison time, and I don't know. Let me move on, because I have a couple other things I want to

00:45:20.640 hit. Okay, if he gets it, I don't think he'll serve it. Yeah, I don't think he'll serve it.

00:45:24.340 This is very important to get to. As you guys know, Trump was gagged in that case by Judge

00:45:28.980 Marchand. Again, as I said, not about criticizing the judge or the DA, but pretty much everybody else,

00:45:33.780 including the judge's daughter and the court staff and the ADA, all that. And you know who thinks

00:45:39.540 that's really unfair? I know you were wondering what this guy's take would be. Michael Avenatti,

00:45:45.180 who's currently in prison himself for defrauding all of his clients, a bunch of clients, including

00:45:53.600 Stormy Daniels, sentenced to 14 years in 2022 after being convicted of cheating numerous former clients

00:46:00.480 out of millions of dollars in other financial crimes, not due to be released until 2035.

00:46:04.780 And he tweeted out, we can't be hypocrites when it comes to the First Amendment. It's outrageous

00:46:10.940 that Cohen and Daniels can do countless TV interviews, post on social, and make money on

00:46:15.300 bogus documentaries, all by talking shit about Trump. But he's gagged and threatened with jail

00:46:20.980 if he responds? What on earth is happening, Dave? He was Trump's chief antagonist, not to mention

00:46:28.600 Kavanaugh's and all these. Now I guess he sees the light now that he's in prison.

00:46:32.180 How is he even allowed a tweet from prison? What kind of prison do we run it?

00:46:37.700 Correct.

00:46:38.940 Yeah, number one. And number two, boy, he really wants a pardon. He is, as we say in the wrestling

00:46:45.980 business, he turned heel to get a pardon. But he's very transactional. This guy would,

00:46:51.700 he just, he's all transactional, as we've known from his previous convictions. And so I think he's

00:46:56.020 just angling for a pardon because he knows he's not going to get one from Biden.

00:46:58.800 It's amazing. Last but not least, Mike, there are some on the left, like Mehdi Hassan, but not just

00:47:07.100 him, calling for Justice Sotomayor to step down and retire right now so that if her type 1 diabetes

00:47:15.200 acts up over the possibility of a Trump administration or even a Biden administration

00:47:19.600 with a Republican Senate, the Dems get the seat. This is getting more and more buzz. What do you make

00:47:25.260 of it? This is just, this is great. These are like blasts from the past for me. Michael Avenatti

00:47:31.180 popping onto the scene. I, I'm glad they have Twitter in the prison library. When I'm Trump's

00:47:36.200 viceroy of DC, I'll make sure that he gets special Twitter access because of, because of what he's

00:47:42.340 done here. And with Mehdi Hamas Hassan, I, he came after me a couple, a couple months ago and,

00:47:49.460 you know, he's back. I, I'm surprised. Does he even, where is, did he say this on Twitter? I

00:47:55.060 thought he got canceled from MSNBC. This is just why. Yeah, he did. He writes a column. He said it

00:48:00.920 in a column, but he's not the only one. This is a din that's growing louder amongst Dems who are

00:48:05.240 terrified, given the polls, Trump's going to win. And frankly, that Sotomayor, it's not, it's them,

00:48:10.580 it's not me. People might die and that Trump will have another Supreme court appointment and that

00:48:15.360 they can't withstand a seven to high court. Well, I would say this. I mean, if, if they're

00:48:20.920 worried that we're not going to have a Hispanic woman for the Supreme court, I mean, isn't judge

00:48:25.820 Cannon, she's a Hispanic woman. I think she'd be making excellent replacement for justice Sotomayor

00:48:30.560 on the Supreme court. I'll give you the last 20 seconds, Dave. You can see why Democrats are calling

00:48:36.780 for Sotomayor to step down. They still have PTSD over the whole Ruth Bader Ginsburg thing. And that's

00:48:42.600 what's going on right now. I don't think she's going anywhere. Not at age 70. Don't bet on it.

00:48:48.200 Okay. You guys are the best. Thank you so much for being here, Mike, Dave, to be continued and don't

00:48:52.440 go away. We've got much more right after the break.

00:48:58.960 Young, healthy, beautiful, and scheduled to die. The free press recently highlighted the story of a 28

00:49:06.340 year old woman in the Netherlands who had chosen euthanasia instead of treatment. She chose to die.

00:49:14.620 And she's not the first, nor will she be the last. There's a growing number of people worldwide

00:49:18.940 choosing to end their lives rather than live. And in places like the Netherlands, they're doing it

00:49:27.680 for some shocking reasons up in Canada, too. It's a very disturbing trend when we've wanted to dig into.

00:49:33.040 And that's where our pal Rupa Supramania comes in, journalist at the Free Press. She's here to dive

00:49:39.380 into this topic with us today. She just did a lengthy piece for the Free Press on this. Rupa,

00:49:44.020 welcome back to the show. Oh, great to be back, Megan.

00:49:47.980 So you went over to the Netherlands, a place we traveled to last year and absolutely loved. It was

00:49:54.580 beautiful and the people were lovely, but they are suffering from this problem. I view it as a

00:49:59.740 problem. This is my own bias. They are suffering from the same problem as our friends in what

00:50:04.120 Michael Knowles calls our evil top hat Canada are suffering from, which is just, I mean, like suicide

00:50:10.980 numbers that we haven't seen before by people who are engaging the medical community and the blessing

00:50:20.280 of the medical community, their help and their blessing to make it happen. And it's getting blessed

00:50:25.580 for cases that are really not that extreme in my view. So you went over there and you met with a

00:50:33.160 young woman, this 28-year-old named Zariah. Tell us what you found.

00:50:38.320 Yeah. Thanks, Megan. So I just want to make it very clear that I did not go to the Netherlands to

00:50:43.020 speak to Zariah. We communicated over the phone for nearly a month. And so all of the reporting was done

00:50:51.540 here where I'm based in Canada. So let me tell you about Zariah Terbik. She is 28 years old and she

00:51:00.640 lives in the Netherlands. She lives with her boyfriend, her longtime partner of 10 years. He's 40 years old.

00:51:08.040 They met when she was 18, working at a place where she was stocking shelves and he worked at a nearby

00:51:13.800 restaurant. He now works in IT as a programmer. And, you know, I found her story to be extremely

00:51:23.580 interesting because it's not that she wanted to wants to be euthanized under the Netherlands assisted

00:51:31.140 dying regime. It's because of how young she is. When we think of euthanasia or assisted dying in the US where it's

00:51:38.900 legal in 10 states or here in Canada where I'm based, we generally think of people who are old

00:51:44.640 and terminally ill. They have no hope of survival beyond a few weeks or months. And that's clearly

00:51:52.020 not the case with Zariah. No, it's not the case at all. And historically, the people who have done this

00:52:01.320 in the places where it's been legalized have been near death, have received a terminal diagnosis like

00:52:08.300 Oregon, for example, was the first state to do this, I think anywhere, but certainly within the

00:52:12.640 United States back in 1994, I think it was. And they said, you have to be within six months of dying

00:52:18.780 per a physician's diagnosis. So if you have a terminal diagnosis and you're facing six months of hell,

00:52:24.860 that's one thing. But this is she's she does not suffer from a fatal disease, right at all. And she has

00:52:33.240 not been given a terminal diagnosis. No. So I'll tell you what she suffers from. She suffers from

00:52:39.020 depression and anxiety. She has autism. She says that she has agoraphobia, which is an anxiety

00:52:47.800 triggered by a fear of being in a public space. The fact of the matter is she just doesn't want to go

00:52:54.620 on living, even though she's not terminally ill. By her own say so, by the way, she she could live a really

00:53:01.900 long life if she chose to. But she does. She just doesn't want to. And I should also point that she's

00:53:07.800 been feeling this way for many years. She's been featured in the Dutch media quite extensively over

00:53:13.760 the years. Death has essentially been part of her identity for a very, very long time. Keep in mind

00:53:20.500 that she's only 28 years old. She prominently wears a do not resuscitate tag on her neck, which she's had

00:53:28.900 on for years. In 2020, as she tells me, that's when she finished her last treatment of electroconvulsive

00:53:38.080 therapy, more commonly referred to as shock therapy. And at that point, she recalls her doctor telling

00:53:45.340 her, look, we've tried everything possible here. And there's nothing really more we can do in terms of

00:53:51.800 treatment options for you. This is essentially going to be your life, where you're on this course

00:53:58.380 of medications and shock therapy and so on. And and that's when she said that she decided that she's

00:54:08.260 going to apply for euthanasia, because for her, it was going to be very clear that if there were no

00:54:13.020 there was no better alternative for her going forward. And if this is the life that she was looking forward

00:54:19.020 to, she just didn't want to continue living this way anymore. So according to Dutch law,

00:54:25.560 for example, if mental illness is the reason to die, three doctors have to sign off. So far,

00:54:33.460 two already have. Zariah told me the third is basically a formality at this point. Her date for

00:54:40.720 her death has been set for a day in early May. And she fully expects she's very confident that she's

00:54:47.320 going to die that day. She's had a custom made coffin made, which is white on the outside and

00:54:53.060 black on the inside. She spent most of March saying goodbye to her friends by sending them a support

00:54:59.580 box, which was black with a rainbow ribbon tied around it. And it contained things that her friends

00:55:07.020 could remember her by. The coffin is where she will lie briefly before she's cremated. And she's picked

00:55:14.700 the urn for her ashes, which she says will be her new home.

00:55:20.240 You write in the free press that she told you that story about the urn and then included an urn emoji

00:55:26.980 in the text that that was such a great detail to include because it's just kind of shocking.

00:55:34.860 An emoji is something you picture. It seems lighthearted and fun. And who would be tweeting or

00:55:40.780 sending an emoji of an urn, which is the, you know, receptacle for one's body, one's ashes after

00:55:47.000 death. And she's not even 30 yet. Does she have a lighthearted attitude about it?

00:55:54.280 She does. So let me tell you a bit about her. You know, as a person, I got to know her a little bit

00:56:01.300 in the course of many conversations I've had with her. She's incredibly intelligent. She has a sense of

00:56:08.120 humor, which is dark at times, given what she's dealing with and given what she's confronting.

00:56:16.220 But she's a very smart young woman. She comes across as being incredibly mature.

00:56:25.040 And I don't, you know, a lot of reactions to her have been that have made the assumption that she's

00:56:31.480 an extremely lonely person. But I never got that impression. She's in love with her boyfriend.

00:56:36.680 They've been together for 10 years. They live together. She has a large circle of friends.

00:56:43.040 And what's extraordinary about this is, you know, everybody respects her wish to die and

00:56:49.920 think this is, you know, if she's come to this decision that they must respect it.

00:56:55.160 So the audience knows the Netherlands and Canada are the two countries that allow you to do this and

00:57:05.440 to get the medical establishment to help you for a mere mental disorder. And I say mere understanding

00:57:11.780 how powerful mental illness can be. But again, contrasting it against end of life diagnoses that

00:57:18.540 people have typically required before we would allow any medical intervention.

00:57:22.620 And just, just to contrast, like in Oregon, I actually, um, hold some stats here. Okay. So

00:57:28.240 in Oregon, uh, they said it has to be self-administered assisted dying. Now there's a,

00:57:35.700 there's a difference from place to place about whether the physician will give you the medication

00:57:40.860 and then you give yourself the medication when you decide it's time or whether the doctor will be

00:57:47.340 there with you because sometimes things do go wrong. People choke on the medication or something

00:57:52.560 happens. And many would like the help of a doctor to make sure it goes smoothly. So in Oregon,

00:58:00.000 it does have to be self-administered. You have to be over 18. You have to have decision-making capacity

00:58:06.100 and you have to be terminally ill with the disease that's likely to cause your death within the next

00:58:09.860 six months. And it seems like the opposite of that is the Netherlands and Canada. Uh, we're in,

00:58:19.820 in, uh, the Netherlands. Okay. First of all, mental illness will qualify you. Um, you could get

00:58:27.900 physician medical assistance. My understanding is in dying has to be a well-considered and independent

00:58:33.540 decision. Uh, and a doctor has to attest to it as well as you, that the person is suffering

00:58:39.320 unbearably. So, um, that would include a medical condition or a psychiatric diagnosis. And then

00:58:46.180 there's Canada. FYI, Canada assisted dying allows both practitioner administration and patient self

00:58:56.380 administration. So you can do anything you want in Canada. Very broad, broadest on earth. This is,

00:59:02.580 uh, citing here from some experts who went on a BBC podcast. I listened to called the briefing room

00:59:08.240 dated 12, 14, 2023. So you can have either in Canada assisted dying or practitioner administration,

00:59:14.880 very broad, arguably the broadest on earth, no time requirement, no six months to death,

00:59:21.880 nothing like that. It just has to be a quote, grievous and irremediable condition,

00:59:27.140 which is very broadly defined. So it can be physical, it can be mental. In any event,

00:59:35.120 that's what's out there. And there are other States in the United States, there's some 11

00:59:37.600 States in the United States that allow something closer to what we have in Oregon. But you're

00:59:42.300 speaking to somebody from one of the most extreme jurisdictions, the Netherlands and Canada

00:59:48.280 are the most extreme and permissive in, you know, allowing this and allowing physicians to be,

00:59:54.160 to participate in the Netherlands. Is she, is she expecting that a doctor will help her on the day

01:00:01.280 of, or that she will self-administer? Uh, no, a doctor will, uh, come to her house, uh, and, uh, she

01:00:09.740 expects, uh, um, that it's going to be, uh, she's going to be attached to an IV. Um, uh, that's how she's

01:00:17.080 going to die. Um, uh, first, uh, there's something that will induce a coma, uh, a coma. She goes into

01:00:23.840 deep coma. And, uh, while she's in that, uh, deep coma, um, there's another substance that's going to

01:00:30.020 be administered to her, which will, uh, stop her heart. And, uh, that's when she will die.

01:00:35.820 What is the medicine that they use to stop the heart? Do you know?

01:00:40.160 Um, not at the top of my head, Megan, but, um, it's, uh, it's, it's fairly common in the

01:00:46.300 Netherlands. Um, I, I, I can't remember the, the, the name, but, um, yeah, it's, it's, um, it's, it's,

01:00:53.300 it's something that it's routinely used by, uh, in, in physician assisted, uh, dying in the

01:00:59.020 Netherlands. My, my understanding was that some of these heart stopping medications you can get

01:01:05.140 are the same as we use in some prisons when we, we conduct state run executions and there have been

01:01:14.140 problems with these medications. So, you know, this is, this is something these patients need to

01:01:20.560 factor in that sometimes things can go wrong. And I understand wrong is a relative term when you're

01:01:26.380 trying to take your own life, you know, to end your own life. But you know, you, the whole point in

01:01:31.560 getting the medical community involved, because you can take your own life without them,

01:01:35.140 is to make it go smoothly. It's not risk-free in that way. Absolutely. Uh, in fact, I mean, uh,

01:01:42.160 you know, I couldn't go into this, uh, for the story, but you know, in my research on assisted

01:01:47.140 dying over the last couple of years, uh, one thing that, that is, uh, that does come out in the

01:01:52.040 discussions is, uh, there's no such thing as a peaceful death when it comes to medical assistance

01:01:57.120 and dying. Uh, as you point out, uh, you know, we have, um, you know, we, we see what happens,

01:02:03.040 uh, in states, uh, that have a capital punishment where prisoners are given this, uh, lethal substance.

01:02:09.640 And oftentimes, you know, you'll see, or sometimes you'll see, uh, a prisoner, uh, in, in, in a lot of

01:02:17.060 pain before they, before they actually die. And, uh, so, you know, there's this misconception out there,

01:02:23.320 according to some, some doctors, um, uh, who, you know, who say that, you know, this is, there's no

01:02:29.260 such thing as a peaceful death. You know, many, it's, it's actually pretty painful in the case of

01:02:34.120 Zariah. What, what is interesting about this is that for her, uh, shock therapy, uh, when, uh, she

01:02:40.180 thinks that she's going to go into a coma. So when she, when she, um, undergoes shock therapy, um, a coma,

01:02:47.200 like, uh, coma is induced before she goes into a shock therapy. And, um, and she thinks that that's

01:02:54.760 going to be the kind of coma that she'll experience, uh, when, uh, when she dies, uh, and she won't feel

01:03:01.320 a thing. Now, you know, we don't quite know what's going to happen to her physically, um, um, you know,

01:03:07.780 until that actually happens. But in her mind, she thinks it's going to be a very peaceful death.

01:03:12.820 I just can't get over the fact that she's, her reasons are psychological and she's depressed

01:03:21.120 and she hasn't been enjoying her life, but there are so many people who feel that way and then,

01:03:28.720 you know, fight through it. And a year or two later are married with kids and are so grateful

01:03:36.280 that they did not pursue this dramatic quote solution to their problem.

01:03:42.820 I mean, I do see a distinction. I'm not defending it as a Catholic. I would not,

01:03:46.720 I would not end my own life in this way. Cause I don't, I don't believe it's up to me. I believe

01:03:50.440 it's up to God, but not everybody's Catholic and people have different beliefs. And I understand

01:03:55.120 that, but I, I just think to allow it to happen, you know, to facilitate the ending of a young,

01:04:03.360 physically healthy person's life by the state does have sort of the blessing of the citizenry.

01:04:09.120 And it's, this is very, this is far afield from you have six months to live and you just don't

01:04:15.640 want to suffer. I just, do you talk to her at all about that, about the possibility of

01:04:19.620 emotional and mental recovery?

01:04:22.780 Yes, we did. You know, I, she said that I've tried everything. My doctors have tried everything

01:04:32.900 and there is no possible solution to what I'm feeling. The anxieties that I'm dealing with,

01:04:41.800 the depression that I'm dealing with, the fact that I have autism for her, all options have been

01:04:48.740 exhausted. She thinks this is, this is basically the end and she cannot continue living this way

01:04:54.120 anymore. And, uh, I should also point out, uh, um, Megan, um, and this is a very interesting

01:05:01.560 thing that came out in my research for this story is that the Dutch have a greater acceptance of death

01:05:07.840 than, uh, any of us here. Um, and we can get into that a little later in our conversation,

01:05:13.880 but she has, she, along with many, many Dutch have a great amount of pride. If I can use that word

01:05:21.880 in their euthanasia regime, uh, which is quite extraordinary. Uh, so one of the things that

01:05:27.000 Zora kept telling me is that, look, uh, it's not that easy to get, uh, euthanized in the Netherlands.

01:05:32.700 I myself, I've had to wait for three years. Uh, I've had to convince two doctors and I'm now waiting

01:05:38.700 for the third doctor and which, which I think is going to happen. And I'm fully confident that I will

01:05:43.780 die in on that day in early May, but she has an extraordinary amount of faith in a system

01:05:49.240 that has approved her death, uh, based on the fact that she, uh, does is not terminally ill,

01:05:55.800 uh, but she suffers from a range of, uh, um, uh, uh, problems related to her mental illness.

01:06:02.840 Uh, so it's an extraordinary thing to actually, you know, hear, uh, someone, uh, talk,

01:06:08.680 tell me about the great things about the Netherlands euthanasia regime. When in fact,

01:06:14.440 it's, it's very dystopian and it's disturbing. Yes. And she's, you mentioned this, I jumped out

01:06:23.240 at me when reading your piece. Uh, you say she recalled her psychiatrist telling her that they

01:06:28.000 had tried everything that quote, there's nothing more we can do for you. It's never going to get

01:06:33.220 any better. That's shocking. If she really did have a psychiatrist say that to her. And I realized

01:06:39.860 this is her claiming that she was told that, um, that I don't think is something a psychiatrist in

01:06:45.900 the United States would ever say. I don't believe that would be ever be said here. And I do have to

01:06:49.680 wonder whether this pro euthanasia culture is leading to, uh, you know, I guess it's over, you know,

01:06:57.720 just a more defeatist attitude amongst the community that is responsible for helping people

01:07:04.320 like this young woman. Um, absolutely. Um, uh, one, um, um, um, a bioethicist I spoke to in the

01:07:12.580 Netherlands for the story, uh, pointed to this exactly. And he said, we're getting, we've gotten

01:07:17.780 to a point where, um, you know, psychiatrists are, uh, uh, you know, just, uh, really kind of just

01:07:25.060 giving up on their patients. Um, and, and that's exactly, I think what happened here,

01:07:30.120 of course, I cannot, uh, you know, we have to take Zariah's word for this, uh, but that's what

01:07:35.540 she claims that, you know, reading between the lines, or maybe you don't even have to read between

01:07:39.480 the lines, but that's basically what her doctor told her that that's it. You know, this, we can't,

01:07:44.020 we can't do anything more for you at this point. And that, uh, that, um, uh, you know,

01:07:49.680 helped, um, make her decision, uh, to, to die. Um, another bioethicist I spoke to in the Netherlands

01:07:56.760 for the story, uh, Theo Boer, he's really well known. He was, um, uh, an early proponent of,

01:08:03.760 uh, uh, the Dutch euthanasia regime, uh, and he served on their euthanasia review board.

01:08:09.600 And over the years, I think he served, uh, from 2005 to 2014 and he resigned in 2014, uh, because he

01:08:18.500 saw, uh, in the Netherlands, uh, where death was becoming as a last resort from, it went

01:08:24.800 from being, uh, uh, you know, something that you do as a last resort to actually becoming

01:08:29.140 the default option. Um, and, uh, the statistics in the Netherlands actually bear this out, uh,

01:08:35.400 you know, in 2022, uh, about 170,000 people died. And out of those 5% of all deaths in the

01:08:45.200 Netherlands, uh, had to do with euthanasia. That's an extraordinary, uh, number actually

01:08:50.500 for a very small country. And, uh, and, and we're seeing the number of young people, uh,

01:08:56.700 dying, opting to die. Uh, they'd rather die than live with, uh, their suffering and their

01:09:02.280 pain. Uh, that trend is also going up, uh, for people between the ages of 18 and 40 in the

01:09:07.880 Netherlands, that, that number has been rising. In 2011, I think there were 13 cases, uh, there,

01:09:14.620 and then there were 42 in 2013 and by 2021, there were 115. And, and by the way, this trend,

01:09:23.140 uh, is not just limited to the Netherlands, um, you know, from 2018 to 2021, uh, you know,

01:09:29.820 countries where, uh, euthanasia or assisted suicide are, uh, legal. Um, you know, you saw,

01:09:35.980 we've seen sizable increases in the number of people opting to die. Um, you know, let's,

01:09:42.060 let's look at, uh, the U S uh, there was 53% jump, um, uh, in, in, in the States and the

01:09:48.480 district of Columbia, where, where it's legal in Canada, there was a, uh, 125% jump. Um, and,

01:09:55.560 and also I should point out that, um, you know, with the rise of legal suicide, so euthanasia and

01:10:02.120 physician assisted suicide, it also coincides with a rise in the number of suicides in general.

01:10:09.040 Uh, so that points to, uh, sort of a suicide contagion that is, uh, uh, basically in effect.

01:10:16.260 So in order to talk to you about that, what about that, that, you know, social contagion aspect,

01:10:20.340 we've seen that in the trans, uh, situation back when I was younger, it, we used to worry about it

01:10:25.840 popping up when it came to eating disorders. Um, you know, more you talked about it, the more you

01:10:30.580 surrounded yourself with girls who were suffering from it, the more likely you were to sort of

01:10:34.040 toy with it and possibly engage in it. And now there is a question about whether that's what's

01:10:38.760 happening here, that there's some sort of social contagion on, on, I guess we call it euthanasia.

01:10:44.400 Cause I would like, what do we call you? Like, I don't even euthanasia. I thought, I think about it

01:10:48.620 when I think about euthanizing an animal who's suffering and it's not the animal's choice. It's

01:10:54.180 the, obviously the human's choice to euthanize the suffering creature. Um, and then do we use that

01:11:01.380 word euthanasia to describe what she's doing where the patient is choosing to die by suicide?

01:11:08.580 Uh, yes, it's because it's, it's legal suicide, but essentially it is suicide, right? Uh, as one,

01:11:15.360 uh, a person, a bioethicist, uh, told me, you know, we should stop using all of this flowery language to,

01:11:23.880 to, to, uh, obfuscate from what it actually is, which is suicide. Uh, it's, you know,

01:11:29.900 you're just outsourcing, uh, that to the state, uh, and, and which, which makes, uh, physician

01:11:36.200 assisted suicide and euthanasia legal, but it really is suicide. And, you know, to, to, to this

01:11:42.600 point about suicide contagion. So there are studies that are out there that show that there's been a

01:11:47.460 rise in suicides in general, uh, that coincides with, uh, physician assisted suicide and euthanasia.

01:11:54.620 So in Oregon, for example, uh, in Oregon, by the way, was the first U.S. state, uh, to, uh, legalize

01:12:01.260 assisted suicide. And that was back in 1997. And I think it was probably one of the first places in

01:12:06.720 the world, uh, to legalize assisted suicide. The suicide rate in Oregon, uh, went from 15.9% or

01:12:15.540 something for a hundred thousand people pre-legalization to 16.9% post-legalization. Uh, while the

01:12:23.680 suicide rate in all of the other states dipped from 11.8 to 11.3 in Washington, which was the

01:12:29.880 second state to legalize assisted, uh, dying, um, in 2008, the, the pre, uh, numbers for suicide was

01:12:38.620 13.3 and the post number was 15.3, which was a 15.3, uh, 15% increase. So clearly there's a trend

01:12:47.660 in people opting for legal suicide. And then in an, and that's, we've created this environment

01:12:54.040 where we've normalized, uh, dying, uh, uh, to such an extent that it is also creating, um,

01:13:00.920 uh, people from seeing suicide, um, uh, and environment has been created where people see

01:13:06.720 suicide as a, as an option. You know, I think I'm done with, uh, living and I just don't want

01:13:11.920 to do this anymore. On, uh, the subject of Zoraya, we have a little, very short clip of

01:13:17.600 her talking about this issue, um, that you guys posted. Let's watch it. Hello, my name

01:13:25.080 is Zoraya and I'm 28 years old. I live in the Netherlands and recently my euthanasia request

01:13:31.540 for my mental suffering got approved. She's so young. Um, is there any chance of stopping

01:13:41.540 it? Is there, you know, you say she's got a lovely boyfriend who cares about her and is

01:13:48.020 there any way it's not going to go forward? Uh, well, it, it really does come down to this

01:13:54.620 third, uh, psychiatrist. Uh, she didn't have an especially good meeting with the last

01:14:01.340 doctor and that, that meeting happened a couple of weeks ago and she was fairly upset because

01:14:06.840 this doctor, um, you know, just didn't, um, quite, uh, understand according to her, she

01:14:13.760 claims didn't understand her situation and, uh, and, and perhaps was trying to steer her

01:14:19.980 away from making this, uh, from, from going through with this. Um, I, um, it's, it's, this

01:14:27.100 is a very tough, um, uh, question, Megan. Um, you know, she's 28 years old. She's an

01:14:32.800 adult. Um, and she's come to this decision after I think I, uh, you know, having spoken

01:14:39.160 to her, I think she's come to this decision after thinking long and hard about it. She's

01:14:43.920 an adult. Uh, but at the same time, there's something very disturbing about all of this.

01:14:48.960 She's young. She's beautiful. She's smart.

01:14:50.580 What does her family say? What does the boyfriend say?

01:14:52.620 Well, the boyfriend, unfortunately I couldn't speak to him because Zoraya, um, you know,

01:14:58.480 didn't want, um, uh, me to speak to him. She, she wants to protect him from all the attention

01:15:03.280 that, uh, that, uh, that, that would, uh, that would come to her, um, you know, because

01:15:10.200 of her death. Um, but, um, he, um, I, uh, you know, but she, she, she said that her boyfriend

01:15:17.500 initially had some concerns, but he, uh, like, uh, so many Dutch people out there, uh, respects

01:15:24.040 her wish to die. Um, because she's come to this decision as an adult. Um, you know, as

01:15:30.360 someone I, uh, many people I spoke to, uh, in the Netherlands said at 18, you, you know,

01:15:36.620 you're on your own. Uh, you know, you don't live at home anymore. Uh, you can, you can drink,

01:15:41.920 you can drive, you can do all of these things. Uh, and, uh, why shouldn't you make the decision

01:15:47.100 to die if you, if, if that is what is to do? Well, I mean, your religious beliefs would be

01:15:53.220 one reason. I know I mentioned my own Catholicism. Christianity would never get behind this,

01:15:57.940 but is, is she a religious person? I don't remember whether the Netherlands, like you go

01:16:02.840 to France, everybody's Catholic in Italy. Everybody's Catholic. Um, more and more Muslims in

01:16:07.700 France, I should point out, but I don't know. I don't remember the real, the

01:16:11.600 religiosity of the Netherlands. Yeah. Well, that's a great question because it goes to

01:16:17.380 the heart of this, in my opinion. Uh, now, unlike in the U S, uh, which still has a lot

01:16:24.180 of people who are religious, many European countries like the Netherlands have become

01:16:28.980 post-religious societies. Um, and, uh, and, you know, the social media reaction to my story,

01:16:34.980 um, uh, you know, has been very, uh, telling and has, has been completely polarized. Uh, you

01:16:41.220 have Americans who are horrified at what's happening in the Netherlands and afraid that

01:16:46.480 this might come to, come to them, uh, while the Dutch are scratching their heads, wondering

01:16:52.520 what the fuss is about. Uh, North Americans, uh, you know, generally tend to be horrified

01:16:59.220 at the Dutch acceptance of the right to die or for, for someone who's not terminally ill,

01:17:05.540 uh, or their acceptance that there should be a more humane way to commit suicide, even

01:17:10.740 when euthanasia is legal, for example, that's another aspect that I go into my, into, uh,

01:17:16.160 for my story. Um, the Dutch, I spoke to find North Americans, uh, in general, very conservative

01:17:21.880 and very religious when it comes to life and death. Um, as I mentioned, it's a post-religious

01:17:26.620 society and the comments from there are 180 degrees from what I'm getting from people, uh, in

01:17:32.540 the U S and Canada. Um, I, you know, and I feel that we're living in two different worlds

01:17:37.200 at the same point in time in cultures that essentially descend from fundamentally the same

01:17:42.300 Western roots. If you think about it coming from the Renaissance, the enlightenment and

01:17:46.480 the Protestant reformation. Uh, so the Dutch may be nominally Christian, but you see, most

01:17:51.980 don't go to church or believe in God. Um, uh, Zariah doesn't believe in God. I asked her

01:17:57.320 about, uh, her, her religious beliefs. She said, I don't believe in a God. I think when

01:18:01.340 we die, we just, we just, uh, we just died. There's nothing left. Uh, we're just, it's,

01:18:06.340 it's like a machine, you know, you, uh, turn it on and you turn it off. And that's the end

01:18:10.360 of the story. Um, I, I should mention that. I mean, I think about it here in the United

01:18:14.240 States and what we, the value that we place on one human life. I mean, it's, there's so many

01:18:21.640 examples over the course of my own news career. The one that comes to mind, I was a young

01:18:26.060 reporter at Fox covering the high court. And it was the Terry Schiavo case that went

01:18:30.480 up. People may remember she was a young woman who suffered a cardiac arrest and then went

01:18:34.760 into what was then called a vegetative state. And her parents wanted to keep the feeding

01:18:42.380 tube connected. Her husband didn't want it saying she would not have wanted it. And the

01:18:48.420 battle went all the way up to the, you know, the highest court. And then the Florida state

01:18:51.960 legislature passed a law. Basically they said, the courts said that he could disconnect the

01:18:57.180 feeding tube of memory serves. And then the Florida state legislature passed a law saying,

01:19:00.980 no, ultimately they took the feeding tube out and she died. There are the cases of minors

01:19:06.400 who get caught. I covered one of those two in West Virginia who get caught. And we, we do

01:19:11.040 everything within our power to try to get out every last life. And we pray, look at the

01:19:16.660 submersible that went down last summer where everyone was on pins and needles, wondering

01:19:22.160 if these four guys had lived or died, you know, people praying the talk of the world. You know,

01:19:27.720 there is just such an extreme, I think appropriate value placed on human life. And now here you have

01:19:35.140 a state government and I do see it as different from the Oregon thing, which is controversial

01:19:39.800 enough, but a state government in the Netherlands and in Canada involving the people in essence,

01:19:46.300 involving the people in assisting a death, not on God's terms and diminishing the value of life to

01:19:53.260 the point where it's, these are not terminal patients. This woman could be saved. Her life

01:19:58.520 could turn around as it has for so many people who have not only considered suicide, but attempted it.

01:20:03.540 And yet, you know, if this physician actually said, there's nothing more we can do for you.

01:20:09.100 It just speaks to what I think is a rot in the system over there when it comes to the value

01:20:14.400 of life. Well, yeah, I mean, I think that's, you know, that that's a great point. And as an example,

01:20:23.040 to, to bolster that point, Megan is, you know, in the Netherlands, the previous left wing,

01:20:29.780 Dutch government wanted to further liberalize their existing euthanasia law by allowing those

01:20:36.220 over the age of 75 to opt for euthanasia, even when they're not terminally ill. They just have to

01:20:43.060 feel, yeah, they just have to feel that their lives are complete. It's not worth living beyond this age.

01:20:51.740 You know, I have a history of heart disease or whatever it is in my family. I saw my mother

01:20:56.880 go through dementia. I, I, that fate awaits me and I do not want to go through with that. So I'm going

01:21:03.480 to opt for this, this assisted suicide under this bill. The only pushback, if you can even call it

01:21:12.760 that, came from conservative Christian parties. Most people in the Netherlands, there was a poll back in

01:21:19.100 November of last year, actually support this bill. It's currently languishing in parliament because

01:21:25.180 they have a caretaker government at present, but the minister, here's the thing. This is what's

01:21:29.940 astonishing about this. The minister who spearheaded this original bill, uh, called the completed lives

01:21:35.380 bill a few years ago is currently completed lives. Keep going. Is, is, is, is currently their health

01:21:42.660 minister, uh, in this caretaker government. A couple of days ago, after my, my story came out,

01:21:49.200 she was quoted in the Dutch media saying that I'm not joking here. I'm not, I wish I were making this

01:21:55.560 up saying that psychiatrists are too reluctant to approve euthanasia. And she finds that problematic.

01:22:02.460 She says that psychiatrists need to overcome their shyness. Wow. That's stunning. There's an ageism in

01:22:12.160 that piece of it, you know, that we need to be taking better care of our elders. You know, there

01:22:19.460 are certain societies like Indian culture, some Asian cultures in which they take care of their

01:22:25.260 senior citizens. You know, they, they, they move back in with their kids and the whole family reveres

01:22:30.340 them and takes care of them. And it's not even a thing. Like, of course, that's, what's going to

01:22:33.600 happen. We're not quite there as, you know, native born Americans. I don't, we're not, we're not great

01:22:39.780 about our elderly in my, in my opinion, but this, we draw the line at this. We value somebody over

01:22:46.200 the age of 75. You know, I'm thinking about that, uh, Dr. Emanuel, Ari Emanuel's brother,

01:22:51.220 uh, Zeke, who used to come on my show at Fox and he used to talk about this kind of thing. Like,

01:22:55.760 eh, yeah, 75, you're about done. Like, why should you get state funded healthcare past that? Like

01:23:01.320 the Grim Reaper's coming for you. And why should people be funding anything to keep you alive and well?

01:23:05.940 It's crazy. You either value life or you don't. Here in this country,

01:23:09.020 we still seem to though, you know, we have obviously abortion and we have,

01:23:14.780 like we talked about 11 States that will engage in this, but these are extreme cases, Canada

01:23:21.440 and the Netherlands are extreme. And so is that just what's behind it? The Netherlands,

01:23:27.140 you talk about the culture, how they're like, Oh, you kind of, you had your run. It's over.

01:23:29.860 That's that. Is that how the Canadians are too? Uh, well, to some extent, I mean, it is actually,

01:23:36.060 uh, quite extraordinary that in Canada and I've written about, uh, medical assistance and dying

01:23:41.760 in Canada. I wrote, wrote a story for the free press back in 2022. Um, again, I wish I were making

01:23:48.840 this up, but it's actually easier to get, uh, assisted dying and euthanasia in Canada, uh, than it

01:23:54.140 is to find a family doctor where you can be on a wait list for years. Um, you know, it's, it's essentially

01:23:59.440 what, what is happening in Canada and in the Netherlands to some extent, I would, I would

01:24:03.960 argue that it's actually easier to get euthanasia and assisted dying in Canada than it is in the

01:24:09.760 Netherlands. The Netherlands, um, still, you know, you have to go through, uh, you know, rigorous

01:24:14.700 process before you are approved, um, in Canada. Um, you know, just, uh, when, when I was working

01:24:22.440 on the story, uh, I spoke to a 21 year old, uh, uh, young man who, uh, was approved to die. He was

01:24:30.940 days from being euthanized by his doctor and his medical condition was that he was, uh, he had type

01:24:38.640 one diabetes and, um, and he had gone blind in one eye because, uh, because of his diabetes and he just

01:24:45.500 didn't want to live anymore. He was only 21. And, and if not for his mother discovering that his

01:24:51.620 doctor had approved, um, uh, uh, you know, his death and he was going to die, she, she had a week

01:24:57.460 to stop him from dying. And she, um, called the doctor, recorded a conversation with him, uh, exposed

01:25:04.780 him on social media. And, uh, and then the doctor eventually had to, uh, had to withdraw from, uh, from

01:25:10.760 the case. Um, and it's, you know, I've spoken to, uh, uh, you know, this, this person since, since

01:25:16.980 then. And, you know, uh, we spoke roughly around the time that he was going to die. And I, you know,

01:25:23.440 just reading between the lines, it seemed like he was happy to be there, you know, happy to be happy

01:25:29.320 to be, um, still alive. And he was, uh, uh, picking up vegetables, uh, in their, in his grandmother's,

01:25:36.480 uh, garden, uh, and it was around Thanksgiving weekend. And, uh, it was extraordinary that,

01:25:41.680 uh, he, you know, he sounded happy and, you know, and, um, and, and he, you know, he was glad to be

01:25:47.520 around with his grandparents. Oh my gosh. There's, uh, another case that was all over X recently,

01:25:55.900 uh, Lauren Hove, H-O-E-V-E. She's, she was in, uh, the Netherlands, a YouTube creator.

01:26:04.920 She was then 27 and she took to her newly created blog, Brain Fog, to announce that she wanted to

01:26:12.520 die. I saw her tweet, uh, earlier this year. Was it? Yeah, it was, it was this year or 23. I'm

01:26:18.460 trying to remember. And it was shocking. I, it read, this will be my last tweet. Thanks for the

01:26:24.060 love, everyone. I'm going to rest a bit more and be with my loved ones. Enjoy a last morbid meme

01:26:29.700 from me. The photo next to her post was labeled me getting euthanized and it featured a child

01:26:36.280 wearing sunglasses and lying on a gurney while giving a thumbs up. Um, soon thereafter, a doctor

01:26:42.720 helped her, started an IV, put her in the coma. Exactly what you're saying. Uh, that Zariah wants

01:26:48.540 to happen to her. She was at home. She had her family there. And at 1 56 PM that day, she at age 28

01:26:55.100 was pronounced dead. Lauren and Zariah both had something in common and that's autism. And that

01:27:04.760 makes this especially disturbing. It is. Um, and there's a third example of, uh, a recent case of a,

01:27:13.060 uh, 28 year old woman in Alberta here in Canada. Um, she, uh, won a court, uh, uh, um, a court just

01:27:22.600 ruled in her favor, uh, that, uh, she, she could go ahead and get euthanized because her father wanted

01:27:29.460 to stop her from doing that. Um, guess what? She, she has, she's, she has autism. So, um,

01:27:36.480 you know, and in the Netherlands too, an increasing number of people with autism, uh, are opting for

01:27:42.260 euthanasia and they're getting approved and, uh, they, they have died recently. And it's, um,

01:27:47.920 you know, I think I've met people, adults who have autism and they have gone on to live

01:27:54.980 very fulfilling lives. You know, they've had children, they're successful. They're, uh, I,

01:28:02.140 I just never thought that autism would feel like a death sentence for, um, uh, for people suffering

01:28:08.820 from it. Um, you know, it, again, I think it goes back to, uh, what, what I was saying earlier that

01:28:16.000 increasingly the medical community in places where euthanasia is legal and assisted dying is legal,

01:28:21.960 I think they're increasingly giving up on their patients. Society is giving up on these individuals

01:28:28.360 society. Um, you know, we've gotten to a point where we're just not taking the time to speak to,

01:28:34.580 uh, people who are suffering, you know, it's, everything is just fast paced. Everything has

01:28:39.820 to have a quick solution. Everybody wants to be in control and in charge of everything that they do.

01:28:45.520 Um, you know, one of the, not just that, not just that, but also the, the absurd push at every turn

01:28:51.980 to be happy, be happy. You have to be happy, happy, happy, happy. Abigail Schreier writes about

01:28:57.340 this in her new book, bad therapy about how that this is the wrong directive. You know, if you ask

01:29:03.920 somebody, the average person, you know, how, how many times in a week's period, they feel genuine

01:29:08.840 happiness. It's probably maybe 15% of their week. That's not a norm. We're not normally walking around

01:29:13.760 skipping with a big smile. Like I'm super happy. You know, we're, we're working hard or we're focused

01:29:20.320 or we're, sometimes we're stressed. Sometimes we're just sedentary. We're, we're bored. We're

01:29:25.400 entertained, but like the word happy might not apply. And even if it doesn't, even if you're more

01:29:30.040 of like a sad person and sadness is an okay emotion. It's just, we've deemed happiness to be this.

01:29:37.340 It's an unattainable false idol to have it dominate your life for most people. And then we're slowly

01:29:44.400 but surely demonizing people who have these disorders like autism. I know that Lauren also

01:29:50.840 had ADHD, um, that there it's like, what's next with kids who have down syndrome? Are we just going

01:29:57.340 to, you know, like shove them right into the line? Cause you know what? They're less than this is just

01:30:01.300 opening up such a, such a dark door. I'm going to steal the last word on it for right this second.

01:30:07.200 Cause I got to squeeze in an ad break, but we'll pick it up on the backside. Stay, stay with us,

01:30:11.380 Rupa. This is an unbelievable talk. I'm Megan Kelly, host of the Megan Kelly show on Sirius XM.

01:30:17.900 It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and

01:30:22.760 important political, legal, and cultural figures today. You can catch the Megan Kelly show on Triumph,

01:30:27.860 a Sirius XM channel featuring lots of hosts. You may know, and probably love great people like

01:30:34.140 Dr. Laura, Glenn Beck, Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey, and yours truly, Megan Kelly. You can stream the

01:30:41.080 Megan Kelly show on Sirius XM at home or anywhere you are. No car required. I do it all the time. I love

01:30:48.200 the Sirius XM app. It has ad-free music coverage of every major sport comedy talk podcast and more

01:30:55.280 subscribe. Subscribe now, get your first three months for free. Go to Sirius XM.com slash MK show

01:31:02.000 to subscribe and get three months free. That's Sirius XM.com slash MK show and get three months

01:31:09.640 free. Offer details apply. Up to now, Kaborkian says he's helped people to die by having the patient

01:31:19.340 flip the switch to start the lethal drugs flowing. And Tom could have done that. But Kaborkian

01:31:25.160 suggested that instead, he give Tom a lethal injection. He says that's more reliable and more

01:31:31.160 humane. And he wants to push the public debate from doctor-assisted suicide to euthanasia.

01:31:37.940 Did Tom know that you were making, in effect, an example of him?

01:31:43.220 Yes.

01:31:43.480 He did?

01:31:44.480 Yes. And I sensed some reluctance in him. I did.

01:31:48.540 Because he thought he was getting assisted suicide.

01:31:50.660 That's right. And actually, this is better than assisted suicide. I explained that to him. It's

01:31:54.440 better control.

01:31:55.620 You killed him.

01:31:56.960 I did. But it could be manslaughter, not murder. It's not necessarily murder. But it doesn't bother

01:32:02.100 me what you call it. I know what it is. This could never be a crime in any society which deems

01:32:08.420 itself enlightened.

01:32:10.420 Hmm. What a story. That was 1998. Dr. Jack Kevorkian appearing on 60 Minutes with Mike Wallace

01:32:18.060 about his attempt to help and successful attempt to help a man die, saying he did it himself. He

01:32:26.240 didn't just create the facility or the drugs or the apparatus for this man to do it himself,

01:32:32.840 but he injected this man, Thomas Uke, who had Lou Gehrig's disease. And for that, ultimately,

01:32:39.400 Rupa, they put Jack Kevorkian in jail for second-degree murder, where he remained for many years.

01:32:47.580 He ultimately died himself, I think, in 2011 of an illness. And that, my God, like how times have

01:32:57.360 changed? That seems mild compared to what's happening in the Netherlands and Canada.

01:33:02.940 Absolutely. Times have changed, but the discussions really haven't. The debate essentially remains the

01:33:10.220 same, to be honest with you, especially in light of stories like Zaria's, because Kevorkian's actions

01:33:18.260 sparked this debate, intense public debate over the ethics behind euthanasia and physician-assisted

01:33:25.740 suicide. People who support a right to die viewed him as a compassionate person, and that he was a

01:33:34.260 compassionate advocate for patients' rights to end their suffering, while opponents argued that

01:33:41.760 this violated medical ethics, the Hippocratic Oath, do no harm, and of course, possibly put

01:33:51.200 vulnerable individuals at risk. So that part of the debate, in my opinion, is still there, because

01:33:59.080 that's essentially what we're discussing in the context of mental illness, at least, or for those

01:34:04.120 who are not terminally ill, like Zaria Terbik, where euthanasia is increasingly, or assisted suicide, or

01:34:11.260 even suicide, is becoming increasingly romanticized and increasingly has become normalized. Because those

01:34:19.480 of us, and especially for me, you know, I have a moral ambiguity when it comes to this, and, you know,

01:34:28.700 it's not, you know, it does make you, once again, revisit this debate from the 90s, when Dr. Death,

01:34:37.140 Jack Kevorkian, was performing physician-assisted suicide.

01:34:41.520 Mm-hmm. We just hit the 25th anniversary on March 26th of his conviction of second-degree

01:34:49.120 murder in that particular case. There are multiple states now, beyond the 11 in Washington, D.C.,

01:34:57.120 here in America, that are considering allowing this, not the Canadian version, not the Netherlands

01:35:03.240 version, but more the Oregon version, right? I mean, and as I look at, there was an Axios article

01:35:09.300 on this earlier this year. They're not all blue states. It's legal right now in California,

01:35:16.080 Colorado, Oregon, Vermont, New Mexico, Maine, New Jersey, Hawaii, and Washington, but states

01:35:20.240 that are considering it include Florida, Tennessee, Virginia, and Massachusetts. So these all allow

01:35:28.440 people with six months or less to live to request prescriptions from a doctor that they can take

01:35:33.960 home if and when they decide to end their lives. The patients must be deemed mentally competent.

01:35:41.340 You know, I guess there's another piece to this, which is some people get it and it makes them feel

01:35:46.080 better, but not everybody uses it when they get it, do they, Rupa? Some people just get it as like an

01:35:51.060 insurance policy.

01:35:51.940 Yeah. So these bills in the U.S. are, I would say, typically, they're actually fairly conservative.

01:36:01.080 You know, they're looking at allowing people to offer euthanasia who have six months or less to live,

01:36:09.280 and they can get these prescriptions from a doctor that they can take at home if they decide to end

01:36:16.260 their lives. And doctors can prescribe these drugs if they deem the patient to be mentally

01:36:22.540 competent. But of course, I think a lot of people, so there's a movement in the Netherlands that wants

01:36:29.060 to make suicide kids legally available.

01:36:35.320 They want to make it easier and easier. And there's a real question about that. I got to run,

01:36:39.020 Rupa. Thank you. Read her piece at the fp.com stands for free press. I want to tell you quickly,

01:36:44.480 Free Press has a live debate about whether we should close the border. It's next Thursday in

01:36:48.120 Dallas. Ann Coulter versus Cenk Uyger and Nick Gillespie on the other side. Soura Omani is also

01:36:55.600 with Ann. Barry Weiss will moderate. Go to the fp.com to find out more and get tickets.

01:37:04.920 Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:37:14.480 No BS, nobreaker.

01:37:15.880 Thank you very much, guys.

01:37:35.560 Hold on.

01:37:35.680 Bye.

01:37:37.860 Fuck.

The Megyn Kelly Show - April 04, 2024

Jack Smith vs. Trump Docs Case Judge, and Disturbing Rise of Assisted Suicide, with Mike Davis, Dave Aronberg, and Rupa Subramanya ｜ Ep. 758

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