The Megyn Kelly Show - Jeffrey Epstein's Past Threats, Intel Associations, and How He Really Got So Rich, with Vicky Ward ｜ Ep. 1108

00:00:00.560 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM channel 111 every weekday at noon east.

00:00:12.120 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. We are live from Vail,

00:00:16.820 Colorado today where I'm out here on business, but I wanted to make sure I made time for

00:00:22.680 all of you because there's a lot going on. And we're going to talk a bit about Epstein

00:00:27.840 and we're going to speak in just a moment to reporter Vicki Ward. Her name is all over the

00:00:33.240 news. You heard it all over our show yesterday. She's the reporter who wrote for Vanity Fair

00:00:37.460 back in the early aughts about Jeffrey Epstein. Her piece about his abuse of girls was removed

00:00:45.200 from the piece, though she was quite heroic in trying to expose him back then. And then she

00:00:52.800 updated her piece in 2019 when Alex Acosta, the U.S. attorney who had been going after

00:00:58.440 Epstein down in Florida in 2007, 2008, spiked the case, gave him a sweetheart deal and waltzed

00:01:05.780 off into the sunset. She reported for Daily Beast in 2019 that she'd been told by a member of the

00:01:12.480 Trump transition team back in 1617 that Alex Acosta had said to the Trump transition team

00:01:20.780 that he had been told that Jeffrey Epstein was part of intelligence. I want to quote it exactly.

00:01:27.140 He had been told, quote, that's a quote, been told to back off that Epstein was above his pay grade.

00:01:33.800 Quote, I was told Epstein belonged to intelligence and to leave it alone. That's what he told his

00:01:39.840 interviewers in the Trump transition. That was what she reported. So we're going to have her on today

00:01:45.160 to talk about where that came from, what she can say about it, and whether she stands by

00:01:50.180 that reporting, there are many other people disputing Alex Acosta's alleged statement that

00:01:57.460 suggests Epstein was a foreign agent, including Alan Dershowitz, which I'll play for you in a 0.64

00:02:03.420 minute. He represented Jeffrey Epstein in that sweetheart plea deal. He's the one who got it

00:02:07.820 for him. And he does not believe that Epstein was an agent for Israel or anyone else. And I'll let you

00:02:14.440 hear from him directly as he explains why that is. Meanwhile, here's where we stand in terms of

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00:03:45.000 We heard from Benny Johnson yesterday, who is an influencer on the right, who has been interviewing

00:03:52.200 people on Epstein and know some administration officials. And he said that powerful people inside

00:03:57.120 the administration are now pushing for a special counsel and a full press briefing. My own take on

00:04:03.600 that is there is no way we're having a special counsel. A special counsel is appointed by the

00:04:10.080 attorney general and is needed when there's a conflict of interest by said attorney general.

00:04:15.720 What is Pam Bondi's conflict of interest? She can investigate Epstein and what happened. Just because 0.98

00:04:21.900 she screwed up in her messaging on Epstein over the past few months doesn't mean she's got a conflict

00:04:27.600 of interest. I mean, to the contrary, I think now she would want to be as transparent as ever since

00:04:33.680 her own reputation has been dinged up. So I just don't think they'd want that. And even if they did

00:04:40.140 appoint a special counsel, it would be kind of pointless because that person would obviously be

00:04:43.560 under the control of Bondi and Trump. So it's just, I mean, okay, that to me is a red herring.

00:04:51.220 It's like a head fake. Now, if they are actually thinking about having a special, a presser or Pam

00:04:57.520 Bondi sitting down for an extensive interview or, you know, it's no holds barred and she'll answer 0.90

00:05:01.420 any question. She and or anybody from the FBI or anybody else from DOJ are welcome to come on this

00:05:06.460 show and do that. And as you guys know, I'll be totally fair. I don't dislike Pam Bondi. I don't

00:05:10.020 have it out for Pam Bondi. We've always had a good relationship. I just think she's botched this, 1.00

00:05:14.620 you know, I mean, I think if there's sort of a fall guy on who's mishandled the Epstein messaging

00:05:19.940 for the Trump administration, it's very clearly Pam Bondi. So in any event, one of those two things

00:05:25.440 could happen according to Benny Johnson. I don't think they're not going to have any additional

00:05:31.760 disclosures. I think they realize they just have to. I mean, go back to my appearance at the Charlie

00:05:38.080 Kirk Turning Point Student Action Summit on Friday. We sat together and I asked the audience about their

00:05:44.500 level of interest in the Epstein case. And here's what happened. Watch this. Let me just ask you,

00:05:51.400 make some noise if you care about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal.

00:05:58.920 Raise your hand if it matters a lot to you. Raise your hand.

00:06:02.860 So every hand of 7000 people.

00:06:05.000 Everybody cares.

00:06:07.320 It's interesting because there are some right wing pundits online now who are saying no one cares

00:06:12.500 about Jeffrey Epstein. And that's just not true. That's not true. And in fact, Rasmussen recently

00:06:18.860 did a poll that showed only 21 percent of the American public believes that Epstein killed himself.

00:06:23.640 So the vast majority of Americans actually think that there is a cover up of some sort,

00:06:27.900 that he was murdered and would like more disclosure.

00:06:31.780 This isn't exactly what Trump ran on. It's not what was a big platform of Trump's.

00:06:37.700 But all of Trump's surrogates pushed this. And anybody who says otherwise is misleading you.

00:06:42.540 I mean, from his family members to his top surrogates and to the vice president

00:06:45.460 demanding more transparency on Epstein. So that's why we are where we are.

00:06:50.840 It's not the number one most important thing of the Trump administration. I think it's important to keep in mind.

00:06:57.580 Trump has been out there racking up wins. I mean, left and right.

00:07:01.120 We talked about last week he nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize with good reason.

00:07:06.160 June, for the first time, we saw an economic surplus here in the United States when it comes to our economy.

00:07:12.020 And a surplus. For the first time, we weren't spending into the deficit.

00:07:18.220 We actually were in the black instead of in the red in the United States of America.

00:07:22.740 And you had even CNBC and The New York Times admitting it was because of Trump's tariffs,

00:07:29.000 you know, the dreaded evil tariffs that everybody's supposed to hate that are so awful.

00:07:33.360 Well, guess what? They're actually bringing in real money.

00:07:36.080 And that's before they've even really kicked in in earnest.

00:07:39.680 We're still in the middle of his big pause on the tariffs.

00:07:42.060 So that's another huge thing. Trump's just recently said he's going to open back up the spigot with Ukrainian arms.

00:07:50.040 He's going to go. That was in morning update. He's going to go through NATO and have like provide the arms to them and have them give them to Ukraine.

00:07:57.120 So that's a bit of a victory for the more neo-cani wing of the Republican Party. 0.99

00:08:02.040 But look, they've had a couple of victories lately, the Iranian nuclear strikes and now this.

00:08:07.740 So, you know, he's Trump is sort of evaluating his landscape on the foreign policy front and making real time assessments.

00:08:16.660 And while he really did try to woo Putin with honey instead of vinegar, it clearly didn't work.

00:08:22.160 And I think he's realizing that Putin really can't be wooed, can't be manipulated by praise or flattery, and that he's kind of, you know, an asshole.

00:08:31.160 Like, of course, he's doing terrible, awful things in Ukraine. 0.97

00:08:34.260 But I mean, he's not a man of his word. That's what Trump is realizing.

00:08:38.060 And he's coming to his own independent judgment on whether he can trust him.

00:08:41.900 And honestly, the neo-cons should just be happy with that.

00:08:44.680 Like, no one wanted to give Trump time to come to his own conclusions.

00:08:47.800 They just want to shove their purported foreign policy knowledge down his throat.

00:08:52.160 It's like, you know what? Trump's the president.

00:08:54.240 He's got tons of advisors more informed than you telling him what the competing interests are.

00:09:00.340 And at some point, the guy who's actually going to have to supply weapons that are going to kill people, people has to have his own independent experience that leads him to his own independent judgment.

00:09:11.420 And that's what he's doing.

00:09:12.520 So anyway, he's doing well on it.

00:09:16.180 And he's winning court battle after court battle.

00:09:19.340 The Supreme Court continues to step in to slap down these federal district court judges that are trying still to enjoin the Trump agenda.

00:09:27.140 So far, he's doing very well with the law fair against him.

00:09:29.980 It takes a little time to undo the rogue federal district court judges, but he's doing it.

00:09:34.400 So, look, he's focused on a lot of important things.

00:09:38.480 And I agree and accept that Epstein is nowhere near even the top 20.

00:09:43.820 The problem for him is this has been an ongoing issue for millions in the country and especially among the Republican base.

00:09:52.340 And it's been a fire flamed, fanned by his top emissaries, including the two guys he has running the FBI.

00:10:01.340 I mean, totally those guys.

00:10:02.820 And I don't think that they would try to deny that.

00:10:05.480 I think Bongino and Patel would be really clear about that.

00:10:10.400 OK, so you now have some MAGA influencers clearly on direction of the White House saying, OK, I'm done.

00:10:17.420 You had Laura Ingram go on her show on Fox News on last night being like, oh, well, you know, after there was the, you know, the pylon at Charlie Kirk's turning point event, you know, where there are all this Republican infighting and then kind of suggested she's moving on from Epstein.

00:10:32.320 OK, she was part of it.

00:10:33.800 I like Laura, but she 100 percent stood up there and fanned this flame. 0.99

00:10:38.440 I 100 percent talked about Pam Bodney and Epstein.

00:10:42.440 I was on the receiving end of a Q&A.

00:10:44.740 Charlie Kirk was asking those questions.

00:10:46.120 This is not Megyn Kelly's choice for the questions of the evening.

00:10:50.080 The interviewer sets the tone and chooses the subject, with which I was 100 percent fine and remain fine.

00:10:55.440 But let's not pretend that, you know, some of the president's most loyal advocates aren't very, very interested in Epstein.

00:11:04.620 They are.

00:11:05.560 All right.

00:11:06.120 However, some in the media let their loyalty to the president trump their journalistic obligation.

00:11:11.940 Now, Charlie, I don't think, considers himself a journalist.

00:11:14.160 And so he has no such obligation and he's never made any secret of that.

00:11:17.140 So kudos to him.

00:11:18.260 But here's what he's saying.

00:11:21.040 And I'll talk about it in the back end.

00:11:23.440 Sot one. 0.58

00:11:24.640 Plenty was said this last weekend at our event about Epstein.

00:11:27.920 Honestly, I'm done talking about Epstein for the time being.

00:11:30.920 I'm going to trust my friends, the administration.

00:11:32.860 I'm going to trust my friends in the government to do what needs to be done.

00:11:36.300 Solve it.

00:11:37.060 Balls in their hands. 0.94

00:11:37.980 But let me just say this again.

00:11:39.100 Everyone knows my opinion about the Epstein thing.

00:11:41.040 The messaging fumble.

00:11:43.180 I would love to see the DOJ move to unseal the grand jury testimony.

00:11:47.720 I think that would be a big win.

00:11:49.320 I would love to see that.

00:11:50.880 And I'm going to trust my friends, Cash Patel, Dan Bongino, my friend Pam Bondi.

00:11:55.060 All these guys.

00:11:55.800 I'm going to, Todd Blanche.

00:11:56.800 I'm going to trust them to solve it.

00:11:58.660 Balls in their court. 0.50

00:12:00.080 I think that there was plenty of, let's say, speeches that were directed towards this topic this last weekend.

00:12:07.000 And there were, I mean, up and down the roster.

00:12:11.280 It was the dominant topic of conversation amongst virtually all the speakers that I heard.

00:12:17.260 So Charlie says he's going to trust his friends inside the administration.

00:12:20.920 You heard Ben Shapiro say that on this show yesterday.

00:12:23.760 I will state for the record, I have lots of friends inside the administration.

00:12:27.420 I have nothing but respect and admiration for this president.

00:12:30.360 But I'm in a different business.

00:12:32.480 I am in the journalism business.

00:12:34.980 And my position is you can trust, but you must verify.

00:12:38.960 And I refuse, refuse to be the CNN of Trump 2.0, where they just trusted the administration on Biden's mental acuity and willingly, by doing so, ignored the biggest crisis and controversy and scandal in modern presidential history.

00:13:00.460 That's not what's happening under Trump.

00:13:02.920 But I'm just saying, journalists, people like me who do consider themselves as journalists, you have an obligation not to just trust.

00:13:08.840 You kick the tires.

00:13:10.040 That's your job.

00:13:11.120 You approach all stories and everything fed to you by an administration official, like them, love them, respect them, trust them or not, with a hefty dose of skepticism.

00:13:20.880 And you drill down and drill down and drill down until you think you've actually captured the story.

00:13:26.220 That's what we're going to do.

00:13:27.340 I'm not obsessed with Epstein.

00:13:28.520 Everyone who listens to this show knows if you wanted to hear the in-depth Epstein discussions over the past five, six years, this is not the place you came.

00:13:36.060 But we are going to try to get to the bottom of what's knowable now that they're telling us there's no there there.

00:13:42.640 I mean, for me, that's just a red cape in front of a bull.

00:13:44.980 Like, just I understand some people like, don't do it.

00:13:48.580 You don't want to hurt Trump.

00:13:49.520 I don't think this will hurt Trump.

00:13:51.540 I think nondisclosure and nontransparency is hurting Trump.

00:13:55.140 But I'm also not in the business of protecting Donald Trump.

00:13:57.680 Again, like, that's what The New York Times does for a Democrat.

00:14:02.380 That's not me.

00:14:03.880 That's not any honest journalist.

00:14:06.120 I am not going on some media tour in four years with, you know, Alex Thompson trying to have to explain how I'm shocked.

00:14:14.380 I'm shocked, shocked that there wasn't full disclosure under Trump on Epstein.

00:14:18.340 You know, I guess I was just too naive.

00:14:20.880 I believe them.

00:14:21.780 This is humiliating.

00:14:23.480 This scandal is nowhere near, nowhere near what the Biden mental acuity scandal was.

00:14:27.840 But I'm just saying it's a time for choosing for people who consider themselves honest journalists.

00:14:32.740 And you don't back off a story just because a politician asks you to.

00:14:37.880 Okay, that's just a statement of core principles.

00:14:40.720 At least you're on the MK Show.

00:14:42.640 That's that.

00:14:43.580 However, having said all that, you know, I don't have TDS.

00:14:47.320 I'm not looking to hurt him, sink him.

00:14:49.180 And I actually don't believe Trump has anything to hide.

00:14:51.840 I believe Trump's in the Epstein files insofar as he was friends with Epstein for 15 years.

00:14:55.720 He knew Epstein.

00:14:57.020 And there are people who hate Trump who probably threw some scurrilous allegations in there.

00:15:00.960 But nobody believes Trump had an affinity for the underage girl.

00:15:05.720 That's just such bullshit.

00:15:07.500 You know, maybe he was at some Epstein party.

00:15:09.320 Trump says he never went to Epstein Island.

00:15:11.180 And I believe that, too, that that would be something to extraordinary lie about.

00:15:14.760 It'd be very easily disproven.

00:15:16.000 And so maybe Trump feels uncomfortable with releasing everything because he's been falsely accused by a lot of people.

00:15:23.700 And he doesn't want to just throw a bunch of guys whose names are in these files under the bus in the way it happened to him.

00:15:30.320 That would make perfect sense to me.

00:15:31.860 Maybe he sees something about his own name in there that he thinks is utter bullshit.

00:15:35.400 And he's not looking to create more attention around that issue.

00:15:38.580 And so it's just easier to be like, you know, we're done.

00:15:41.220 You know, the guy's dead.

00:15:42.220 Move on.

00:15:43.060 I get that.

00:15:43.680 But Trump doesn't have his finger on the pulse of how important this is, I think, to his base and to many.

00:15:49.400 And maybe it's a question, as Pam Bondi, you know, has said, well, sort of.

00:15:54.460 In her memo, she's intimated that, look, there's really not anything that can be disclosed, that we've got sealed grand jury testimony, that we've got heavily redacted FBI files that protect the names of victims or alleged victims.

00:16:10.900 All that's possible.

00:16:12.560 Then you've got Alan Dershowitz out there.

00:16:14.600 This is not the soundbite I was referring to, but you've got Alan Dershowitz out there who represented Epstein saying, OK, there's no client list.

00:16:20.960 That's sort of a short form for, like, who was in Epstein's orbit, who went to the island, who was on the plane, who has been accused by these young girls of using them, of having sexual interludes with them.

00:16:35.580 If it's a 17-year-old, that's one thing.

00:16:37.440 If it's a 14-year-old, that's what we call a crime.

00:16:40.420 So there's interest.

00:16:42.180 And he is saying he's seen all the names.

00:16:45.500 He says what he thinks is all the names.

00:16:47.140 I have doubts about whether he's seen every name.

00:16:49.100 But he's definitely seen a lot of names.

00:16:51.640 He did say he does not believe anyone on that quote-unquote list is a current sitting politician.

00:16:58.740 So he's ruling out Trump.

00:17:01.080 He previously told me, as I mentioned to you guys yesterday in episode 10 of this show, there are names that you would recognize in there.

00:17:07.720 He mentioned Bill Richardson as one.

00:17:10.040 This Lex Wexner, the guy who owned Victoria's Secret and The Limited, is all over Jeffrey Epstein's life.

00:17:17.320 He and his financial advisor are the ones who are responsible for making him hundreds of millions of dollars.

00:17:24.740 The questions about him have never been fully resolved.

00:17:27.320 But there are others, too.

00:17:28.900 Bill Clinton, obviously, is somebody who was very close with Epstein.

00:17:32.400 He was close with everybody.

00:17:33.660 And I think this is something Vicky's going to talk about, is how he knew everyone.

00:17:41.000 He knew princes.

00:17:42.700 He knew presidents, not just of countries, but of MIT, of Harvard.

00:17:48.220 He operated at the highest levels of both culture and government and law in this country.

00:17:56.660 And he was extremely charming and a very, very effective manipulator.

00:18:01.300 And he was also a prolific, deviant, sexual predator, okay?

00:18:07.960 So it was kept quiet for far too long because people like Vicky Ward, who tried, got their story spiked.

00:18:14.960 That story was spiked by Graydon Carter back in 2003.

00:18:18.560 I'll ask her what she thinks about Graydon Carter doing that.

00:18:20.960 I don't think the man had a real Jones for covering up for sexual predators.

00:18:25.620 But the big reveal on Epstein happened slowly and then quickly.

00:18:30.820 And let's not forget, after he was indicted in 07 and then he settled his case, copped a plea, and it was put to bed by 2008,

00:18:40.800 all these famous people went to his mansion in New York and continued hobnobbing with him.

00:18:50.260 Prince Andrew, that's really why he got effectively canceled.

00:18:53.380 Yes, because he was in a picture with Virginia Dufresne when she was 17.

00:18:57.760 But also because they accepted him after he had copped a plea.

00:19:02.400 It was two counts of prostitution. 0.97

00:19:04.560 These were underage girls. 0.98

00:19:06.540 14-year-olds are not prostitutes.

00:19:08.100 That's statutory rape. 1.00

00:19:09.600 This was effectively negotiated down by skilled lawyers.

00:19:12.820 But they knew.

00:19:14.140 They knew.

00:19:14.820 Everybody knew by that point what had happened in that case.

00:19:17.660 It wasn't a secret how he had negotiated down what he'd actually done to these two slap-on-the-wrist counts.

00:19:22.960 And had a year of house arrest slash jail.

00:19:26.180 And Katie Couric and George Stephanopoulos still went over to the mansion and hobnobbed with him.

00:19:35.100 Even our pal Steve Bannon spent a lot of time with him in 2019 after Bannon was ousted from Trump 1.0.

00:19:43.000 And we're going to have a lot more on that later.

00:19:45.620 And we're talking to Steve.

00:19:47.140 And we love Steve and we respect Steve.

00:19:49.640 And unlike everybody else who just wants to crap all over him, we're just going to him and he's talking to us.

00:19:55.200 And we're going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened.

00:19:57.540 What does he know?

00:19:58.640 Wouldn't it be fascinating to talk to him about it?

00:20:00.460 I think he's actually going to talk to us about it.

00:20:02.200 So there are a lot of questions still to be answered.

00:20:05.420 Now, on the subject of what we're going to get, Lara Trump, daughter-in-law of the president, she's married to the son, Eric Trump, as you know, she went on with Benny Johnson yesterday.

00:20:17.100 And she actually made news saying we are about to get more disclosures from Team Trump that they actually have had a change of heart when it comes to transparency and what they think we're entitled to.

00:20:29.600 Watch.

00:20:29.860 I do think that there needs to be more transparency on this.

00:20:34.140 And I think that that will happen.

00:20:35.960 I mean, look, I don't know what truly exists there, but I know that this is something that's important to the president as well.

00:20:43.120 He does want transparency on all these fronts, everything we're talking about, because it's frustrated him as well.

00:20:48.980 As it relates to the president, I know that this is probably not his number one thing he's focused on, but he hears all the noise and he hears all of the consternation out there.

00:20:58.440 And I think he's going to want to set things right as well.

00:21:00.380 So I believe that there will probably be more coming on this.

00:21:04.140 And I believe anything that they are able to release that doesn't damage any witnesses or anyone underage or anything like that, I believe they'll probably try to get out sooner rather than later, because they hear it and they understand it.

00:21:16.860 To everybody out there who's all worked up about it, there's no great plot to keep this information away that I'm aware of.

00:21:24.440 I do just believe that maybe it's been slow rolled for reasons that hopefully we understand down the line.

00:21:31.680 And she's a great spokesperson for the administration. 0.93

00:21:35.560 I mean, she should, she really should run for that Senate seat. 1.00

00:21:38.020 I don't know if she can in North Carolina.

00:21:39.680 It's just she doesn't actually live there now.

00:21:41.100 But in any event, she's got an amazing career ahead of her no matter what she chooses to do and very, very effective communicator.

00:21:46.100 And I believe her when she says more is coming.

00:21:48.020 She wouldn't say that if it weren't true.

00:21:50.040 She's been very credible thus far, even though she's a relative of the president and obviously has motive to, you know, run cover for him.

00:21:56.040 Why would she say more is coming on the hottest button issue in the country right now if it's not?

00:22:01.600 So maybe we're going to get a presser.

00:22:03.400 Maybe we're going to get declassified information from the FBI.

00:22:06.820 I do believe there's a lot that's being withheld.

00:22:10.780 I do not believe that they've given us everything at all.

00:22:15.380 I believe Julie K. Brown, the reporter for the Miami Herald, who's been really owning this story,

00:22:20.860 when she talks about the volumes and volumes of materials that are still with the FBI,

00:22:26.200 that are still with the Southern District of New York, that are sitting there redacted,

00:22:31.480 provided like, you know, one big form that's been blacked out in every line, redacted.

00:22:35.080 And I agree with Alan Dershowitz, who said he really thinks that these other men who may be in this file

00:22:41.700 should have to defend themselves the same as Alan did.

00:22:44.160 The only reason Alan got outed and all these other people didn't who may have been accused

00:22:48.200 is because Virginia Dufresne was talked into mentioning Alan by others who thought it would

00:22:55.000 really help Virginia sell her book. 0.98

00:22:57.440 And Alan was, you know, the most preeminent attorney in the country at the time.

00:23:01.680 And he got put on the list.

00:23:03.200 She later moved away.

00:23:05.160 She dropped her lawsuit against him and said she may have been confused about who it was she actually was with.

00:23:11.640 But that was after Alan produced all this proof.

00:23:13.280 It was never, he's never, he'd never been with her.

00:23:15.500 He's never been with, I mean, is it so hard to believe it wasn't Alan?

00:23:18.200 It wasn't Alan, okay?

00:23:20.940 Again, go back and look at our reporting on it.

00:23:22.660 Poor Alan has been haunted by this allegation for a long, long time.

00:23:25.120 But he still thinks we have a right to transparency.

00:23:27.360 He still thinks that the other men who were accused should have to speak to it the same as he did.

00:23:32.680 And Alan's been making the other point, which is valid too.

00:23:35.640 There are probably a lot of accusers in there who are bullshit.

00:23:38.620 Who, let's not forget, once Epstein was outed back in 07, 08, there was a pile on.

00:23:45.280 They created this fund, hundreds of millions of dollars.

00:23:48.640 He became like the number one funder of the litigation bar in Florida.

00:23:54.700 All these lawyers were like, holy crap, you can get money from Epstein's fund?

00:23:58.560 If you find some victim who says she was groomed by him or, you know, forced into giving him a so-called happy ending at his mansion, great.

00:24:06.100 Let's do that.

00:24:07.500 Some are real and some are bullshit.

00:24:09.460 It's kind of like what we saw in the Diddy case.

00:24:11.300 There's no question that Cassie Ventura is telling the truth about what happened between her and Diddy.

00:24:17.460 The jury may not have thought it was sex trafficking, but even the cross-examination didn't try to combat her allegations of abuse or getting her hooked on drugs or allegations about the freak-offs.

00:24:27.400 Same for Jane.

00:24:29.160 That doesn't make every accuser who came forth against Diddy real.

00:24:32.840 And we exposed one of them on this show as we delved into the one woman who said his guard picked her up after a music awards show and brought her to Diddy for some night of debauchery.

00:24:44.640 And it was all untrue.

00:24:46.680 It was very clear that she wasn't in the right city.

00:24:50.420 She was making all the wrong allegations.

00:24:52.260 There was no house, as she described, and so on.

00:24:55.080 So anyway, keep that in mind that there's another reason, I think, that favors disclosure, which is why do these accusers have the right to stay anonymous forever?

00:25:05.560 What is the rule that says you get to do that?

00:25:08.660 You know, I've talked about this before, but in the ALS sexual harassment scandal at Fox News, we were told he gets to see your name.

00:25:16.740 Like if you come forward against him, he's going to know you did.

00:25:19.600 And then there was a time for choosing, right?

00:25:21.640 Do we do that?

00:25:23.100 Are we okay putting our names behind our allegations?

00:25:25.560 I 100% was because I was telling the truth, and I knew he would know it.

00:25:31.720 And frankly, in my case, I had contemporaneous journal entries.

00:25:35.080 I had my office mate, Major Garrett, to whom I'd been regaling, you know, stories the entire time.

00:25:41.440 When the phone would ring and say, Roger Ailes, I was a first-year reporter.

00:25:44.400 We were both like, holy shit.

00:25:45.920 Anyway, my point is simply, when you're a truth teller, you're not afraid of disclosure like that.

00:25:50.300 And I think they're, except in a case where it's clearly a minor like that, a minor is deserved to be protected.

00:25:58.520 But there's a lot of folks who were not minors who were legal or like legal in the eyes of the law when it comes to a sexual interlude.

00:26:06.000 And even older girls who, their names should be exposed.

00:26:10.740 They don't have a right to lifetime anonymity on all of this.

00:26:13.560 Okay.

00:26:14.040 So now we move on to, oh, I actually have one sound, but I want to play a few before I move on to the question of whether he was an agent.

00:26:20.180 And this is back to the question of how big is this story and who will cover it with integrity, given that the president clearly is asking people to move on, and yet it hasn't been resolved.

00:26:31.660 So what should the press do?

00:26:34.780 Joe Scarborough.

00:26:36.960 This is the best Biden ever.

00:26:40.080 Roll the tape.

00:26:41.360 Roll the tape.

00:26:42.220 I'm going to tell you the truth.

00:26:43.460 The best Biden ever, Joe Scarborough, would like to weigh in on this scandal and Republicans who have accepted the president's request to move on.

00:26:56.420 Listen here, SOT 5.

00:26:58.180 Sometimes you get it wrong.

00:27:00.960 Hey, as I've said here on this show, I get it wrong every day.

00:27:04.280 Most notably last year, after spending a lot of time with Joe Biden, I talked about Biden at his best.

00:27:10.540 I got it wrong.

00:27:11.380 Sometimes you change your mind and you see some facts.

00:27:18.000 The facts change.

00:27:19.380 You change your mind with those facts that happen.

00:27:23.420 But I must say, very rarely have I ever seen people going from a decade-long crusade against pedophilia, against sex abuse, against child exploitation.

00:27:37.960 And making that almost a centerpiece of their existence, saying, when we get in power, we're going to release the Epstein files.

00:27:50.120 Charlie Kirk said 7,500 people outraged by this.

00:27:53.120 The truth must come out.

00:27:57.800 And then the next day, magic pixie dust is sprinkled over all of the podcasters.

00:28:09.460 And voila, this moral crisis of a decade long about little children getting raped by the richest, the most powerful men in the world goes away.

00:28:26.220 Unbelievable.

00:28:30.220 Maybe sit this one out, Joe Scarborough.

00:28:32.480 The nerve of this man to lecture anyone on not covering a story aggressively out of an interest in protecting their favorite president.

00:28:42.620 The absolute unmitigated gall.

00:28:45.220 My least favorite part of that clip, if you come back and watch it on our YouTube show, you'd have to go about 27 minutes into the show, is Mika Brzezinski sitting next to him with the face of...

00:28:59.620 I'm making my sad, concerned face.

00:29:02.700 A sad, concerned face.

00:29:04.440 Oh, the poor children.

00:29:07.000 Who does she think? 1.00

00:29:07.840 She's kidding.

00:29:09.340 Not only did this pair run cover for Joe Biden for his entire presidency and was telling us he could and should do a second term, that he was totally fine and better than ever.

00:29:20.920 Oh, but then the facts evolved that showed him he was wrong.

00:29:25.460 Bullshit.

00:29:26.280 There isn't a human on earth that believes that spin from him.

00:29:30.260 He knew.

00:29:31.280 He lied.

00:29:32.560 He ran cover for political purposes.

00:29:34.920 But that same man was one of the few reporters in America to get Doug Emhoff sitting across from him after the allegations broke that he was a woman abuser, that he had beat the shit out of his girlfriend he had just prior to dating Kamala.

00:29:53.300 He didn't ask him at all about it.

00:29:57.360 At all.

00:29:58.300 He gave some generic question on how, like, tabloids are terrible, aren't they?

00:30:02.880 How do you handle the stress?

00:30:04.920 He didn't ask him whether it was true, which, by the way, I 100 percent believe it was true.

00:30:09.820 I've spoken with the accuser.

00:30:11.340 I know her account forward and backward now.

00:30:14.600 And Doug Emhoff, while he denied it on paper, it was public.

00:30:18.820 This woman is a very well-respected lawyer.

00:30:20.960 She had zero reason to lie.

00:30:22.260 She was a Democrat, is a Democrat.

00:30:24.660 Not to mention that he impregnated the nanny when he was married to wife number one.

00:30:29.480 And that the nanny, according to the Daily Mail, lost her baby after a particularly volatile fight she had when Doug Emhoff, the baby's father, was visiting her.

00:30:40.520 And an ambulance had to come.

00:30:43.040 The woman has never spoken publicly.

00:30:45.080 We don't know the story with the nanny.

00:30:46.860 Emhoff has denied these allegations.

00:30:48.900 My point is, you ask.

00:30:50.740 If you ask, if you have any journalistic integrity whatsoever, you ask, even though it is uncomfortable, even though you don't want to hurt the guy, you ask.

00:31:01.460 You're a disgusting political hack.

00:31:05.100 The nerve, sit this one out.

00:31:06.740 Now, you have no right to lecture anyone on Epstein.

00:31:10.400 And one other point, neither he nor Hakeem Jeffries nor Jamie Raskin nor any of these other Democrats that is now trying to make hay of the Epstein issue said anything about it over the past many years when Joe Biden was president.

00:31:28.200 Nothing.

00:31:29.060 They weren't demanding transparency.

00:31:30.680 They weren't demanding answers in Epstein.

00:31:32.760 So literally nobody wants to hear from them.

00:31:35.320 None.

00:31:36.460 Okay.

00:31:37.400 Gotten on a tear.

00:31:38.860 Deep breathing.

00:31:40.620 Let's talk about whether Jeffrey Epstein was, in fact, an asset.

00:31:44.720 Okay.

00:31:44.940 Was some sort of intelligence asset for America, Israel, or some foreign government.

00:31:53.040 This, many people believed that he might be because he didn't go to college.

00:31:58.180 He was a high school graduate who somehow parlayed that into a job at the prestigious Dalton School in Manhattan and was hired by Bill Barr, former CIA, former attorney general now, by his dad.

00:32:13.280 Who was the headmaster there.

00:32:15.280 And that guy was in Intel.

00:32:17.280 And there was a question about whether he'd been potentially recruited by him or potentially brought into or in connection with the Mossad in Israel because Ghislaine Maxwell's father was believed to be connected with Mossad.

00:32:34.520 And that guy I mentioned to you yesterday, Ari Ben-Massad said he was Ghislaine Maxwell's father's handler and that Jeffrey Epstein was connected to Israeli intelligence, the Mossad.

00:32:49.520 And there were many Israeli politicians like heads of state and Mossad officials at Ghislaine Maxwell's father's funeral and on and on it went.

00:33:01.020 So there had been speculation about whether Epstein was connected to American intel, Israeli intel, or some other country's intel.

00:33:09.940 He was close with the Saudis.

00:33:11.160 And there were a bunch of possibilities because he got very, very rich in a very, very short amount of time, notwithstanding the fact that he wasn't very, very impressive on his academic resume.

00:33:21.320 At least not in a way that you typically see of people who suddenly make hundreds of millions of dollars based on their smarts and their connection to powerful people.

00:33:28.780 So that was a question that was buzzing around.

00:33:31.200 And then it got even more furious when he copped that amazing plea deal in 2007 to 2008.

00:33:39.040 Now, because it looked like somebody stepped in to make it go away.

00:33:42.880 That's how it looked.

00:33:43.800 It was like these were very serious charges.

00:33:45.340 The truth about him was coming out.

00:33:46.860 The government said it knew of at least 30 victims who had been trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein, including underage girls.

00:33:54.120 Who gets 13 months, basically, house arrest for that?

00:33:58.480 And it gets it reduced to two misdemeanor solicitation of a prostitute accounts.

00:34:03.060 I know Allen is a great lawyer, but he's not that great.

00:34:05.540 So what else was at play in making that very strong case get whittled down to nothing?

00:34:12.160 People wanted to know.

00:34:13.660 I want to know.

00:34:14.960 And this is where Vicki Ward's reporting comes in.

00:34:19.680 She reported, as I started off the show with, in 2019, that in 2016, she'd spoken with a person on the Trump transition team about Alex Acosta, who had been nominated for labor secretary.

00:34:32.340 And there was she knew the case very well because she'd been reporting on Epstein for years.

00:34:36.760 And she could see, you know, that that was an interesting choice.

00:34:40.300 Like, this is an interesting choice.

00:34:41.600 Are you sure you're going to be OK with Alex Acosta?

00:34:44.240 And she reported, as I said at the top of the show, what she reported about how he was believed to be an intelligence asset.

00:34:50.280 Again, that he'd been told to back off that Epstein was above his pay grade.

00:34:54.800 Quote, I was told Epstein belonged to intelligence and to leave it alone.

00:34:59.620 And by the way, he also said on camera that DOJ had full vetting and approval of that settlement deal, of that plea deal.

00:35:09.860 So there's no question that Alex Acosta wasn't making the ultimate decision on that settlement, on that plea deal.

00:35:14.140 It was main justice.

00:35:15.600 Now, who was the attorney general at the time this deal was made?

00:35:18.660 It was Alberto Gonzalez.

00:35:19.920 The deal was made.

00:35:21.780 It was right up to, like, the middle of November.

00:35:24.360 I can't remember exactly what day in November it was cut, but it was November of 2007.

00:35:30.460 And Alberto Gonzalez was the attorney general.

00:35:33.200 Within a week, he resigned and Michael Mukasey came in.

00:35:38.580 I mean, it's kind of interesting.

00:35:40.040 Why did he resign again?

00:35:40.980 Like, I'd love to go back and ask him, like, what do we know about this case?

00:35:44.180 I'm not suggesting he resigned because he was, like, disgusted or ashamed or guilty.

00:35:48.860 But I'd love to know why the timing was so close.

00:35:52.280 Anyway, Michael Mukasey stepped in.

00:35:54.420 And there's no question Alberto Gonzalez would have had to.

00:35:57.340 And Alex Acosta specifically says, signed off on this plea deal.

00:36:03.260 He didn't mention Gonzalez, but he said main justice.

00:36:06.400 And something like this most likely would have gone all the way up.

00:36:09.420 So that's what happened.

00:36:10.780 Then, so Vicki Ward hits that reporting in 2019, and she dropped that report in the Daily Beast the day before Alex Acosta was forced, now he's labor secretary, to hold a presser about the fact that he's been embroiled in this controversy.

00:36:29.840 And what's he going to do?

00:36:31.720 Can he last as labor secretary, or is he going to be forced out?

00:36:36.120 And that's when he issued that what I think is an absolutely pathetic non-denial denial.

00:36:42.320 We'll play it here.

00:36:43.100 It's SOT 9, July 10th, 2019.

00:36:49.540 Mr. Secretary, were you ever made aware at any point in your handling of this case that Mr. Epstein was an intelligence asset of some sort?

00:36:56.960 So, so, so, so, so there has, there has been reporting to that effect.

00:37:02.820 And, and let me say, there's been reporting to a lot of effects in, in, in this case, not just now, but over the years.

00:37:11.240 And, and again, I would, you know, I would hesitate to take this reporting as fact.

00:37:20.340 This was a case that was brought by our office.

00:37:23.000 It was brought based on the facts.

00:37:25.080 And, and I look at that reporting and others, I can't address it directly because of our, our, our guidelines.

00:37:33.200 But I can tell you that, that a lot of reporting is just going down rabbit holes.

00:37:39.620 That is not a denial, people.

00:37:41.820 That's not a denial.

00:37:42.860 That, that, that I don't know whether he actually said that to Trump transition, but that is about as mealy mouth and wormy an answer to a direct question.

00:37:55.520 Were you made aware that he was an Intel asset as you could ever hope to hear?

00:38:02.080 He did not say no.

00:38:03.380 First of all, he did not denial, deny the report.

00:38:06.060 All he said was, I would hesitate to take as fact some of the reporting that's out there.

00:38:13.280 Okay.

00:38:14.440 By this point, why couldn't he say no?

00:38:18.100 That way, by this point, he could have said, no, I was not told that Jeffrey Epstein was an asset.

00:38:21.680 That is a report that is out there.

00:38:25.000 That is not true.

00:38:25.840 This case was settled based on perceived weaknesses in the government's case.

00:38:30.840 While it was a very strong state case, this is what Alan Dershowitz has said, by the way, it was less of a strong federal case.

00:38:36.680 I don't know if I believe that, but I'm just saying, if you wanted to find a way of justifying to the press in front of you why you walked away from the deal, it would be very easy to say it had nothing to do with him being an intelligence asset.

00:38:47.840 No, that was never told to me.

00:38:50.120 We walked away for the following reasons.

00:38:52.640 You know, it was a weak case, whatever.

00:38:53.620 So that's what Alex Acosta said on camera.

00:38:58.700 And then he sat with the Department of Justice's Office of Professional Responsibility, which looked into this whole matter.

00:39:07.660 And this is what people who say he was not an asset, and again, I'm not arguing he was an asset.

00:39:13.240 I have no idea.

00:39:14.260 I'm just trying to do an honest investigation for you guys.

00:39:17.240 I'm not somebody with a horse in this race.

00:39:18.940 I don't discount the allegations he was or the allegations, the defenses that he wasn't in any event.

00:39:27.100 So then he speaks to the OPR and reportedly he told OPR that no, he wasn't told that Epstein was an asset.

00:39:40.580 Or at least that's what most reports that write about the OPR investigation say, Alex Acosta said.

00:39:48.240 Enter Mike Benz, former State Department employee, now heads up an open intel-type organization where they're demanding transparency from government, no matter the party, on all sorts of important issues.

00:40:02.100 And he knows this case like the back of his hand, and he was making some very good points about this OPR report.

00:40:10.800 I think this was yesterday, and it's SOT 7.

00:40:15.360 They tried to put this story to bed by saying, oh, we did this OPR report, and Alex Acosta walked back what he said to the Trump transition team or what he contradicted Vicky Ward's reporting.

00:40:29.220 Well, we don't know that because we never got the transcript.

00:40:31.980 We got a one-line summary description buried in the 244th footnote.

00:40:38.220 Now, that OPR investigation is totally sweeping.

00:40:43.140 All of the audio files, all of the transcripts, all of the interviews can be made public.

00:40:49.620 Now, OPR reported directly to Bill Barr.

00:40:52.600 Bill Barr was the CIA's mop-up man for Iran-Contra.

00:40:55.920 He started his career in the CIA.

00:40:57.580 The Washington Post called him the CIA's fall guy because he blocked disclosures of CIA files.

00:41:04.140 It's very possible that the intelligence angle could have been buried by Bill Barr himself.

00:41:10.280 So interesting.

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00:43:22.840 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on SiriusXM.

00:43:28.000 It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal, and cultural figures today.

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00:44:21.840 What does Vicki Ward think now? 1.00

00:44:29.120 She's the one who, you know, first got any actual reporting about his alleged intel ties going.

00:44:35.860 She's an investigative reporter.

00:44:37.420 She's worked for numerous outlets in the past.

00:44:40.200 She now posts to her own sub-stack, Vicki Ward Investigates.

00:44:43.340 And she's actually also the author.

00:44:45.680 We were booking Vicki for this week, irrespective of all this, because she's the author of a new book that's just hitting.

00:44:51.700 She co-authored it with James Patterson called The Idaho Four, An American Tragedy.

00:44:57.740 This is about, of course, those four souls out in Idaho who were murdered, we now know for sure, by Brian Kohlberger.

00:45:05.920 And we're going to put it right to her.

00:45:07.980 Vicki, first of all, thank you so much for being here.

00:45:09.780 What do you make of all the back and forth now that's going on about your explosive 2019 Daily Beast report?

00:45:18.240 Well, thank you for having me, Megan.

00:45:20.440 And I have to say, that was the most detailed, comprehensive overview of Jeffrey Epstein's backstory that I've ever heard.

00:45:27.980 Oh, thank you.

00:45:29.020 Because it's a very complicated subject.

00:45:32.580 And it's very hard to do it justice quickly.

00:45:36.140 Because there are, as you say, so many questions.

00:45:39.700 First of all, I 100% stand by what I reported in the Daily Beast in 2019.

00:45:46.920 I was told directly by someone in the Trump transition who had met with Alex Acosta in the transition and asked if the issue of Jeffrey Epstein would be a roadblock or a problem for his confirmation.

00:46:07.040 And the answer came back, no, you know, I was told Epstein belonged to intelligence and they moved on.

00:46:17.820 I obviously wasn't in the room in the Trump transition.

00:46:20.980 I was told this anonymously, so I can't name my source.

00:46:29.300 But nothing has happened since then to make me think that there was anything wrong with that person's memory or what they told me.

00:46:40.760 So does that clear that up for you, Megan?

00:46:44.320 Yes, it does.

00:46:45.400 You stand by your reporting.

00:46:46.660 The person who said it to you has never gone back on it or called you to say, gee, I might have screwed that one up.

00:46:54.040 Sorry to put you out and away in there, Vicky.

00:46:56.540 And you were in no way confused or playing with the person's words or jumping to your own conclusions.

00:47:03.380 You were reporting exactly what you'd been told.

00:47:06.020 That's exactly right.

00:47:07.660 And it was a person who was in a position to know.

00:47:11.620 Correct.

00:47:12.280 It was a person who was in the position to have been in the room with Alex Acosta.

00:47:15.300 So, you know, and I think that given, I also think the choice of wording is sort of interesting.

00:47:24.800 You know, Epstein belonged to intelligence because that also runs a gamut, right, of possibilities.

00:47:34.720 And I mean, here's what we know about Jeffrey Epstein as opposed to what we don't know.

00:47:41.800 We know that he knew a lot about Robert Maxwell, his one-time girlfriends and colleagues and convicted accomplice's father.

00:47:53.920 Robert Maxwell, as you pointed out, Megan, was buried, given a hero's burial on the Mount of Olives.

00:48:02.700 It's pretty well documented that Robert Maxwell definitely worked for Israeli intelligence.

00:48:11.940 He also worked, by the way, for other governments.

00:48:16.760 But so and Jeffrey Epstein knew a great deal about Ghislaine Maxwell's father.

00:48:24.400 What we also know, to your point, is that this guy didn't have a college degree.

00:48:31.960 He winds up teaching at the Dalton School.

00:48:35.820 He then, after tutoring the child of the CEO of Bear Stearns, then an investment bank, winds up being the youngest ever partner there.

00:48:48.120 And he leaves Bear Stearns in very, very strange circumstances, which later, I mean, I then go on and report.

00:49:02.340 It turned out he was involved in a sort of insider trading allegations that were going on from the SEC.

00:49:11.760 I'm not explaining it very well.

00:49:13.020 And he sort of fell on his sword and he remained very, very tight with the people running Bear Stearns for a very long time.

00:49:22.320 And people found that hard to explain.

00:49:25.280 He then moved to Europe for a while.

00:49:29.160 And according to Jeffrey Epstein, who was a complete con artist and master manipulator, he spent a few years hanging out with a guy called, a British guy called Douglas Lease, who was certainly known to be in the arms business.

00:49:44.720 And according to Jeffrey Epstein himself, he spent a few years going and recovering stolen money from wealthy Europeans in places like the Cayman Islands.

00:49:59.180 He would tell people stories of sort of literally flying into places where people put money offshore and leaving quickly with suitcases of cash on private planes and depositing this cash in Switzerland.

00:50:11.560 So, I mean, he himself propagated this myth that he was some sort of James Bond.

00:50:18.700 Meanwhile, his circumstances in New York are humble.

00:50:23.120 He lives in a one bedroom apartment on E66 Street in New York.

00:50:30.120 There's no evidence of any sex with underage girls in this time period.

00:50:37.160 This is the 1980s.

00:50:39.120 Fast forward to the 1990s.

00:50:42.560 Things dramatically change for him.

00:50:47.020 First of all, little known piece of data, but an important one.

00:50:51.260 He cooperates with the government in a criminal investigation against a businessman he had worked with very closely, a guy called Steve Hoffenberg, who's now dead, who was convicted of pulling off the biggest Ponzi scheme in American history prior to Bernie Madoff.

00:51:10.000 Steve Hoffenberg wound up going to jail for 20 years.

00:51:13.960 Steve Hoffenberg wound up going to jail for 20 years.

00:51:14.660 Steve Hoffenberg wound up going to jail for 20 years after he worked for 20 years after he was killed.

00:51:15.420 The money from the company, Taz Financial, disappeared.

00:51:18.340 This was in the early 1990s.

00:51:20.800 Jeffrey Epstein flipped on him.

00:51:23.820 And in the 1990s is when you see Jeffrey Epstein suddenly amass a vast amount of money.

00:51:30.800 And he buys the most valuable townhouse in New York. He buys an island. He buys a ranch in New Mexico. And it's at this point in his life that the underage girls first make an appearance. 0.52

00:51:46.880 It's also, by the way, this is the decade that Ghislaine Maxwell, her father died and she became a fixture in his life. It's also in this decade that Leslie Wexner, the richest supporter of Israel in this country, becomes Jeffrey Epstein's benefactor.

00:52:12.300 And it's at this moment, this is the decade when Jeffrey Epstein really immerses himself at Harvard. He becomes, on behalf of Wexner, a major philanthropic donor to all these scientific and cultural and educational institutions.

00:52:32.680 We know that in 1992, he and Ghislaine Maxwell went into the Clinton White House. We also know that it's at this point that he becomes very tight with Ehud Barak, the Israeli former prime minister.

00:52:50.820 And it's at this point that he starts to spend a lot of time with Prince Andrew.

00:53:00.280 And he basically, through Ghislaine Maxwell, acquires the international Rolodex of her late father, which puts him in a very unique place in the world.

00:53:19.280 It puts him at the centre of international soft power.

00:53:25.800 The question that I think you want to know, and I think everybody wants to know and wants to get some answers to, is what did he do with that soft power?

00:53:38.320 And what did it ultimately, you know, how did that help him?

00:53:44.580 If it helped him in 2008, get out of the federal charges, get that cushy plea deal, you know, how exactly did that happen?

00:53:58.040 And I think people are also wanting to know, you know, without the money, he could not have committed the sexual crimes.

00:54:08.900 So where did the money come from?

00:54:13.540 And who are the people who propped him up financially?

00:54:19.300 And why have they not been held to account?

00:54:22.300 That, I think, is what people understandably want the answers to.

00:54:30.720 And I don't quite understand.

00:54:32.080 So you heard it here from Vicki Ward.

00:54:33.960 Julie K. Brown, who's been covering him for years, too, said the same thing.

00:54:37.720 Everyone who's really been following this case closely says the same thing.

00:54:41.820 Follow the money.

00:54:43.620 Where did it come from?

00:54:45.560 That alone is worth more disclosure.

00:54:47.760 And someone needs to answer that question.

00:54:49.520 I mean, that's knowable through a forensic accounting of Jeffrey Epstein's documents, of his contacts, of who paid him the money.

00:54:57.340 Like, where did it come from when it went into the bank accounts?

00:55:00.080 Where did it go out, if at all, by Jeffrey?

00:55:02.220 Like, we've never received the answers on that.

00:55:05.740 No.

00:55:06.320 And, I mean, one thing that struck me, Megan, when I was sitting through Ghislaine Maxwell's trial were that, you know, I mean, you're a trained lawyer.

00:55:14.740 You know this, that they kept that prosecution so tight, tightly focused on her and the sexual crimes.

00:55:24.680 It was deeply frustrating to sit there and sort of see names of famous, wealthy people.

00:55:32.340 Yes, they were on planes.

00:55:33.540 They knew Jeffrey Epstein.

00:55:34.520 But you kept wondering, well, what else did they know?

00:55:38.360 And did they, you know, did and did did they fund Jeffrey Epstein?

00:55:41.800 And by the way, did Jeffrey Epstein then steal from them?

00:55:45.040 Because that was the other thing that Epstein used to say to me back in 2002 was that, you know, one of the reasons he was able to come in and, as he described it, be James Bond for all these wealthy Europeans and go and find their money for them, was they came to him because rich people, when they lose their money, he said, they don't go to the authorities because it's too embarrassing.

00:56:05.080 Well, you know, look how history turned full circle when, after Jeffrey Epstein died, Leslie Wexner, his benefactor, suddenly admitted, because he was sort of caught in a public crosshair, that Jeffrey Epstein had in fact stolen $47 million from him.

00:56:26.180 But it's not something that Leslie Wexner, you'll know, went to the authorities over.

00:56:31.980 And what I did wonder.

00:56:33.880 I mean, that just makes you ask more, like, what does Leslie Wexner have to hide?

00:56:38.140 Exactly.

00:56:39.180 And I sat there.

00:56:40.580 I mean, when federal prosecutors bring criminal cases, they tend to bring them wanting to win them.

00:56:50.880 And the problem with Jeffrey Epstein's money is it's difficult.

00:56:56.980 It's, you know, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be pursued just because it's difficult.

00:57:00.480 But Jeffrey Epstein definitely knew how to steal from people and how to put money offshore.

00:57:05.640 And it would be difficult for the American feds to trace that money.

00:57:11.860 Does that mean they shouldn't try?

00:57:13.960 I think that's one of the questions that we're now probably asking, whether we know it or not.

00:57:19.500 Let me play what Alan Dershowitz said, who represented him in getting that sweetheart deal.

00:57:25.800 I don't hold this against Alan.

00:57:27.080 That's what lawyers do. 0.99

00:57:28.180 I hold it against the government.

00:57:29.640 It's their job to get the best deal for the people possible.

00:57:32.980 It's their job to put bad guys in jail.

00:57:35.200 So but Alan yesterday said, and I will say Alan's very, very, very close with Israel.

00:57:41.780 It's the subject of his podcast 80 percent of the time.

00:57:44.700 And so I do take it with a grain of salt.

00:57:46.900 But I think he's an honest broker, generally speaking.

00:57:49.860 Here's what he said.

00:57:51.240 Then there's the Tucker Carlson allegation, which is the most absurd of all.

00:57:55.800 He worked for the Mossad.

00:57:58.340 He worked for the Jews. 0.99

00:57:59.860 He worked for Israel.

00:58:00.920 And don't call me an anti-Semite just because I say he worked for Israel.

00:58:05.180 No, no, you're just wrong.

00:58:08.100 You're just dead wrong.

00:58:09.480 He didn't work for Israel.

00:58:10.820 Let me tell you how I know I was his lawyer, along with four or five other lawyers.

00:58:16.400 If he had worked for any intelligence agency, the Mossad, the Shin Bet, the CIA, anything,

00:58:23.720 any intelligence agency, the first person he would tell would be me and the other lawyers

00:58:28.840 and say, hey, get me a better deal.

00:58:31.400 I don't like this deal.

00:58:32.960 I'm going to jail for a year and a half.

00:58:34.900 I have to register a sex offender.

00:58:36.640 I worked as an intelligence source.

00:58:38.840 So get me a better deal.

00:58:39.980 He didn't tell us that.

00:58:41.520 We asked him everything.

00:58:42.700 We asked him what information is there conceivably that that could help you.

00:58:47.500 We asked him whether people he could testify against.

00:58:50.680 That's what lawyers do. 0.99

00:58:54.840 I'd love to know your reaction to that.

00:58:56.780 I mean, when I watched it, I thought, OK, I'm not sure Epstein would have disclosed that

00:59:01.940 to his defense attorneys.

00:59:02.960 I actually think there'd be a different way of getting to Alex Acosta on it.

00:59:06.180 But what do you think?

00:59:08.840 Well, you know, I know Alan obviously very well by now.

00:59:11.320 I mean, I think you're right, Megan, in that Jeffrey Epstein wouldn't have needed to say

00:59:17.460 anything to Alan.

00:59:19.680 Alan would have been more aware than anybody else that Jeffrey Epstein's money, which was

00:59:25.160 in turn paying for this dream team of lawyers, was coming from the richest supporter of Israel

00:59:30.060 in this country.

00:59:30.820 So, you know, some things are just out there in plain sight.

00:59:35.040 And you have to be careful.

00:59:36.080 You know, I've never, I don't, you know, speculated that Jeffrey Epstein was a, quote, you know,

00:59:42.300 Mossad agent.

00:59:43.740 I'm pretty sure he wasn't in that, you know, he operated at a level where, you know, not

00:59:51.400 on a government payroll.

00:59:52.840 He didn't need to be on anybody's payroll.

00:59:56.080 I mean, people have different roles in, quote, unquote, intelligence.

01:00:00.180 And there are people, and I reported this in Chasing Ghislaine, the podcast series that

01:00:05.480 I made about the sort of the men and the money around Epstein.

01:00:08.860 There are people who the intelligence community call hyper connectors.

01:00:13.060 And Jeffrey Epstein, particularly actually in the last decade of his life, was unusual

01:00:17.840 in that he was very close to Israeli leadership and prominent, the prominent Jewish community

01:00:24.200 in this country and to presidents.

01:00:27.740 But he was also, you know, he had Mohammed bin Salman, now the crown prince of Saudi Arabia,

01:00:32.860 to his house.

01:00:33.900 He knew MBZ.

01:00:35.340 He was, he talked about his close relationship to the leaders of various African dictatorships.

01:00:43.120 He even, I mean, he bragged, and you never know whether to believe what Jeffrey Epstein

01:00:46.840 tells you, that he was close to Putin.

01:00:51.160 So somebody like that, which is not, by the way, dissimilar from the kind of networking

01:00:57.920 that Robert Maxwell had, somebody like that is useful, frankly, to everybody.

01:01:06.120 And they don't need to be specifically on a government's payroll.

01:01:13.100 That's a very good point.

01:01:14.260 That's an important nuance.

01:01:15.960 He could have been effectively benefiting from those relationships with a number of countries

01:01:21.020 providing compromise or information or any number of things in exchange for protection

01:01:29.060 or regulatory approvals or them not bothering him on his offshore accounts.

01:01:35.660 I mean, yeah, we don't know.

01:01:37.700 Yeah, actual cold, cold, hard cash that he may have been getting from a various array of

01:01:44.020 countries and governments and related groups.

01:01:46.240 Now, can we spend a minute on whether he killed himself?

01:01:50.860 I realize this is like, this is sort of at the heart of the so-called conspiracy and people

01:01:56.120 have strong feelings on it.

01:01:57.320 But I do think it's interesting.

01:01:58.460 Only 21% of Americans think he did.

01:02:01.320 Well, another piece of this is Brian Enten of News Nation, who's been doing a great job

01:02:05.920 on this case and Kohlberger.

01:02:07.280 He interviewed Michael Franzese.

01:02:09.220 He's been on this show, too.

01:02:10.260 Love this guy and former mob guy who has served time and he served time in this prison.

01:02:17.440 And he had some thoughts on the suicide theory.

01:02:21.320 I spent seven months on that tier and in those cells.

01:02:24.680 And the first thing I have to say, there's just you there's no way you are able to commit

01:02:29.820 suicide.

01:02:30.580 There's just no way.

01:02:31.380 There's no way to hang yourself.

01:02:32.700 There's nothing from the ceiling.

01:02:34.300 There's nothing from the bed.

01:02:35.260 You'd have to be a midget and work really hard to try to hang yourself. 1.00

01:02:39.860 And I don't think you can accomplish it at that point.

01:02:42.400 You know, as far as the cameras being off, I have an experience that I did eight years

01:02:46.540 in prison and I haven't experienced cameras being broken in the perfect storm of of correctional

01:02:53.160 officers not walking those cells.

01:02:55.100 They walk in and they look in on you all the time.

01:02:57.460 As a matter of fact, you know, sometimes it's embarrassing to go to the toilet because they're

01:03:01.580 walking past you and looking in the cell constantly.

01:03:04.740 So I've said this from day one.

01:03:07.120 I do not believe it was suicide because you just couldn't physically do it.

01:03:11.040 It's almost it would be almost impossible.

01:03:13.580 You have to hang yourself from something.

01:03:16.360 There's nothing on the ceiling that you can hang a bed sheet on.

01:03:19.720 The bed is not that high.

01:03:21.860 I mean, you have to try to lay down on the floor in some way because Jeffrey Epstein was

01:03:26.260 a fairly big guy.

01:03:27.400 This makes a lot of sense to some of us because you do have to wonder how how one hangs oneself

01:03:31.900 from the top bunk, even though he was provided with the extra bed linen and so on.

01:03:36.580 So what are your thoughts on this question?

01:03:39.080 Well, look, I mean, it's it's it's maddening, right?

01:03:43.220 I mean, Jeffrey Epstein dies with as many question marks over the manner of his death as the manner

01:03:47.640 of his life.

01:03:48.200 And I, you know, I spent a lot of time talking to Reid Weingarten, who was Jeffrey Epstein's

01:03:56.200 attorney at that time.

01:03:59.620 And Reid struggled with this for a long time.

01:04:04.480 You know, he and for reasons actually different than the manner of the death, it was that the

01:04:09.880 day before he had met with Jeffrey Epstein and he had said to him, I really think we have

01:04:15.480 a good shot of getting you out of here, that the non-prosecution agreement that they had

01:04:21.360 struck in 2008, he believed would hold in front of the court of law.

01:04:29.360 And according to Reid Weingarten, Jeffrey Epstein was upbeat and agreed with him.

01:04:34.920 And that's why his own attorney sort of couldn't believe it the next day when he was told Epstein

01:04:42.600 he committed suicide, because on top of that, there were all the reasons you've just pointed

01:04:47.600 out.

01:04:48.100 It was so difficult to do and all the extraordinary things that had to happen for the cameras not

01:04:54.060 to work, for the security guards to vanish.

01:04:57.700 I mean, it all just seemed remarkable.

01:04:59.800 I've, I've tried, um, since then to find those two, um, missing guards and they definitely

01:05:08.580 don't want to be found easily.

01:05:10.680 I normally find most people, but my, and it's very difficult, very difficult to get hold of

01:05:16.800 them.

01:05:17.480 Um, so I've heard, I guess we're never going to know that's let's really, we're, we're

01:05:23.080 left on it, but I've heard you also speak to, uh, Michael Wolf and others on what, what

01:05:29.440 was Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with Trump?

01:05:32.600 Because immediately Trump's detractors have gone to, and Elon Musk said Trump's in the

01:05:37.500 Epstein files, but what in that's ambiguous.

01:05:40.380 What does that mean?

01:05:41.540 Most of us believe if there was something really bad on Trump, the Biden administration would

01:05:45.600 have used it.

01:05:46.440 They were running against him for president that Kamala, Joe, and just in the course of

01:05:50.320 the four years where they loathe Trump.

01:05:52.000 So it's very hard to believe there's some smoking gun in there about aha, but you know a lot 1.00

01:05:56.620 about the relationship between those two guys or have learned a lot.

01:05:59.600 What, what do you, how would you describe their relationship?

01:06:03.260 Well, that, you know, there's no question that they were, you know, they knew each other

01:06:07.800 well and palled around.

01:06:09.720 And, um, you know, I would, again, if you think back to the timeline, Megan, uh, uh, you know,

01:06:16.460 the 1990s, which when Jeffrey Epstein begins, you know, acquires all his money and wealth,

01:06:22.620 I mean, it's the beginning, it's the beginning, right.

01:06:24.720 And of the Trump relationship, you know, friendship with Melania, who was, as we know, a model.

01:06:31.060 So, you know, they're all hanging out in similar circles.

01:06:36.920 You know, that's, I don't think so problematic really for Trump.

01:06:40.740 Trump was hanging out.

01:06:42.000 I mean, Epstein, you know, as I've said, had an extraordinary international Rolodex.

01:06:49.140 So the fact that Trump, it would be more surprising if he hadn't known Donald Trump, what I don't

01:06:54.840 quite understand is that given that Trump and Epstein did fall out and, you know, you're

01:07:01.420 right, Michael Wolfe and I have talked about whether it was over this piece of property

01:07:05.560 in Florida that both, um, that both men wanted to get out of bankruptcy.

01:07:12.380 Um, you know, again, that's a, that's a question that's up in the air and I don't quite understand

01:07:19.220 why Donald Trump wouldn't actually come out and talk about why he and Jeffrey Epstein fell

01:07:26.300 out, given that it actually, in this instance, it puts him on the right side of history.

01:07:31.700 Um, he did, they did have a falling out.

01:07:33.480 Trump's admitted it.

01:07:34.360 The story that you and Michael discussed was there was a piece of property.

01:07:37.960 Epstein brought Trump over to say, can you look at it and tell me how to move the pool?

01:07:42.580 Trump went with him.

01:07:43.680 And, uh, instead of doing that, he found out that Epstein had built, had bid 35 million

01:07:49.040 for it.

01:07:49.380 And Trump instead behind his back build, uh, bid 40.

01:07:52.240 And so that's one possible way.

01:07:56.140 Yes, except that.

01:07:57.460 So here's where I, I, I questioned that.

01:07:59.960 And I've talked to at length to Sam Nunberg, who was, you know, as you know, Trump's first

01:08:04.140 political advisor and he, and this, and he and Trump back in the day, um, had, did talk

01:08:10.020 about this and that the problem with that theory is that at the end of the day, there

01:08:14.780 was a bankruptcy auction, um, a public auction to sell that house.

01:08:21.640 And so, you know, any, either of them could have just, uh, outbid the other.

01:08:27.780 So that's why I, I have questions about that particular theory.

01:08:33.340 Because your understanding is that in fact, what, what began the, the, the, the, the snowballing

01:08:39.400 against Jeffrey Epstein was a young woman actually coming forward through her mom to say this

01:08:44.320 happened to me, I think, well, and Trump and Trump, I think told Sam Nunberg that he was,

01:08:50.080 he was furious with Epstein because I think, uh, he was harassing the daughter of a member

01:08:56.660 of Mar-a-Lago and, and, and, uh, you know, I don't know.

01:09:00.280 I mean, back in the day, 2014, there's no reason for Trump to have, have made that up.

01:09:06.480 So to me, that actually makes a lot of sense.

01:09:09.120 Um, yes.

01:09:11.100 So do you think, I want to talk about your personal experience because you, you had a

01:09:15.320 sort of a frightening exchange with Jeffrey Epstein, but do you just quickly, do you think

01:09:20.260 there really are files that could be released?

01:09:22.560 I mean, were you surprised by the memo saying that's it?

01:09:24.880 There's nothing more to reveal?

01:09:27.180 Well, I was very surprised when Pam Bondi first said, you know, I've got this list on my

01:09:31.200 desk because I, I very much doubt that there's a, there's a spreadsheet of Jeffrey Epstein.

01:09:38.000 He just wasn't that kind of guy.

01:09:39.860 I mean, he, the way he operated, I mean, I don't know if you've read any of the discovery

01:09:43.560 and the Jess Staley litigation, but he, he, he always appeared to do almost no work.

01:09:50.380 And, and, um, the, he wouldn't have needed to have kept a list.

01:09:54.980 Let's say for the sake of argument, he was, he had compromat on, you know, wealthy guys.

01:10:03.000 He wouldn't have need to keep a list to remind himself of who they were.

01:10:07.600 Um, so I never thought that I, uh, and that's just not his style.

01:10:11.560 And, you know, people are fixated on the black book.

01:10:14.140 The black book was not Jeffrey Epstein.

01:10:15.680 The black book was Ghislaine Maxwell's, um, address book.

01:10:19.580 And obviously they shared it.

01:10:22.600 I mean, she worked for him.

01:10:24.460 Um, she, she organized his life.

01:10:27.680 Um, but, uh, you know, what was, I think, you know, you were asking me what, what was he,

01:10:35.860 you know, what do I make of the whole thing in the files?

01:10:38.100 I'm in the files.

01:10:39.020 Do you think that there's more to be revealed?

01:10:40.440 Well, I think that of course, there's got to be more documentation around all the lawsuits,

01:10:51.000 um, that, that would answer some of the questions that we have.

01:10:57.980 There's, you know, there's somewhere, somebody knows why in 2008, um, he was able to get away

01:11:08.620 with that plea deal.

01:11:12.540 And, and, you know, maybe it's not written out in black and white, but there is certainly

01:11:17.220 in amidst all the discovery and, and, and in the redacted material, there are, there are

01:11:24.920 some answers to the questions we want to know.

01:11:27.940 And so I don't know why they just don't do a document dump and say, here's absolutely everything.

01:11:37.180 Yeah.

01:11:38.620 Okay.

01:11:39.000 Going back to 2003, when you were trying to break this story, you were doing a profile

01:11:44.420 of Jeffrey for Vanity Fair, and this was going to be a part of your profile on these two sisters

01:11:51.800 that he had hurt.

01:11:54.540 And same thing as we've seen with so many other girls promises of like, I'll make your modeling 0.99

01:11:59.140 career.

01:11:59.680 I'll help you get into a prestigious university.

01:12:02.100 Yeah.

01:12:02.400 All things you would believe he'd have the power to do, given his connections to Wexner,

01:12:05.540 given his connections to MIT and Harvard and all these other places.

01:12:09.340 And as I mentioned in the intro, Graydon Carter ultimately said, we're taking this out.

01:12:15.000 You, you talked about how you were devastated.

01:12:17.500 You were in tears.

01:12:18.880 You would work.

01:12:19.360 So you were very proud of this family for actually revealing this to you and being willing to

01:12:24.800 come forward because he was not outed yet.

01:12:26.880 He was at the apex of his power.

01:12:28.500 And to have made these allegations would have been very courageous, um, at that time and

01:12:34.160 thereafter, but especially at that time.

01:12:36.500 And I wonder if you can just tell us what happened.

01:12:39.320 So it got spiked.

01:12:40.380 You had dealt with Jeffrey, you had interviewed him, and then you write about how you, you

01:12:47.220 had your babies and you actually got yourself spun up into like, I don't know what this guy's

01:12:53.540 capable of.

01:12:54.060 This is before, this is well before he was outed.

01:12:57.260 Well, because so during, I was pregnant with my sons when I began reporting on Jeffrey Epstein.

01:13:03.120 And the irony of this is that, um, I, I had a high risk pregnancy, so I wasn't allowed

01:13:10.160 fly.

01:13:11.340 And so the, I, I was assigned to write about Jeffrey Epstein and I was assigned to find

01:13:17.500 out where his money had come from because for the first time in forever, he had appeared

01:13:22.920 in the, in the press.

01:13:24.400 He was very press shy ordinarily, but he, there was a little item in page six in the New York

01:13:29.200 Post saying that he had flown Bill Clinton on his plane to Africa.

01:13:32.820 So I was assigned to go and find out who was this enigma who lived in this enormous house

01:13:39.480 in New York and where'd the money come from.

01:13:42.440 And the idea actually was that for me, it'd be a very easy piece because I lived in New

01:13:46.780 York too.

01:13:47.280 And it became a nightmare because, um, Jeffrey Epstein would get on the phone to me every

01:13:55.520 day.

01:13:55.920 He would phone me up pretty much to find out how I was getting on in my reporting.

01:14:02.020 And, um, and he began to say things that, you know, I didn't know what to do with.

01:14:07.100 And the lawyers at Vanity Fair didn't know what to do with sort of like, well, if I don't

01:14:10.860 like the direction this story goes in, I'll have a witch doctor place a curse on your unborn 1.00

01:14:15.780 children.

01:14:16.680 I mean, that was creepy.

01:14:18.120 And then he would say, and by the way, that's off the record.

01:14:20.280 And then he would say some really stupid things like, you know, I'll make sure your children

01:14:24.080 never get into school in New York.

01:14:25.840 And I'll, I'll make sure your husband gets fired from his job, which are not really things

01:14:30.220 you want to hear when you're pregnant. 0.86

01:14:33.700 Witch doctor, academic career, and my husband's fired.

01:14:39.420 And then, and by the way, this is all, you know, off the record.

01:14:43.020 And then what was really the unnerved me, you know, where he very persistently wanting

01:14:48.600 to know which hospital I was going to be giving birth at and who my doctors were.

01:14:53.260 And he went into some graphic, um, description for me of what would happen to my hormones

01:14:59.920 as, uh, as I was giving birth.

01:15:02.340 And I just was like, you know, this conversation has, has really crossed all, um, propriety and

01:15:10.040 normal boundaries.

01:15:11.180 And it was, and it was, you know, the lawyers, that is why the lawyers at Vanity Fair said

01:15:16.140 to me, you know, we just, we don't know who we're dealing with here.

01:15:18.980 Um, so I think you better start taping him because we just had no idea what he was capable

01:15:25.980 of.

01:15:27.000 Um, and, you know, I didn't tell him about the two farmer sisters until the 11th hour,

01:15:34.460 quite deliberately.

01:15:35.220 Um, I, you know, I, I slowly explained to him that I was, I was, I did have reporting

01:15:41.440 about working with the guy I mentioned earlier, Steve Hoffenberg.

01:15:46.240 I did have, um, I, I did, I did, was able to go and find depositions he'd given, he'd given

01:15:53.760 admitting to, um, financial shenanigans, both on Towers Financial and at Bear.

01:16:05.060 Ed Stearns, all of which he was indignant about.

01:16:09.760 Um, but when I got, it was when I finally got to the subject of the sisters and one of

01:16:15.500 them made claims really actually, uh, yeah, against him and against Ghislaine Maxwell and

01:16:21.220 she, one of them had been underage.

01:16:23.960 That was when he went into hyperdrive and he not only then faxed over these, um, copies

01:16:32.340 of letters, thank you letters, he said, had been written by one of them as if this was

01:16:38.120 sort of proof of anything.

01:16:39.540 But he then, um, found a way to actually physically go into the offices of Vanity Fair while the

01:16:49.700 piece was sort of going through the machine, the editing machine and the fact-checking machine.

01:16:54.860 And I know this because one of the fact-checkers sent me an email saying, you're not going to

01:16:59.000 believe it, but Jeffrey Epstein is actually here in the office and he's sitting in Carter's

01:17:05.060 office.

01:17:06.440 And I was, you know, completely appalled.

01:17:10.660 And I was told that he had somehow bypassed security and he just, Graydon Carter showed up

01:17:19.260 for work and there was Epstein sitting there.

01:17:22.020 Um, the next thing that I knew was when I, when I actually just read the finals of the

01:17:28.340 piece that the old mention of the sisters had been taken out.

01:17:32.780 And, you know, I was, you know, Graydon said to me, well, he's sensitive about the girls.

01:17:36.560 And I'm like, well, of course he's sensitive about the girls.

01:17:42.100 Um, and yes, I was very, very, very, very, um, upset about it.

01:17:50.380 And then, um, you know, the piece came out right after I gave birth and I, I, I was, and

01:17:56.060 my, I was, my children unfortunately were born at 30 weeks.

01:17:59.580 They were very premature.

01:18:00.780 And I was absolutely terrified that, um, Jeffrey Epstein would sort of find a way to get inside

01:18:08.020 the hospital in the same way he'd got inside the offices of Vanity Fair.

01:18:12.760 So, you know, one of the reasons I've always wondered who the hell he really was and who,

01:18:18.200 you know, was C part of intelligence, there aren't that many people who could have bypassed

01:18:23.000 security at Condé Nast back then in the middle of Times Square.

01:18:25.760 I think we had a major law firm who's, who we shared an elevator bank with, but it'd be

01:18:30.840 very, very difficult to do that.

01:18:33.040 So, you know, how he did that, I don't know.

01:18:36.460 I, you know, I was reading actually Tina Brown, who's another former great friend of mine,

01:18:40.680 former colleague.

01:18:42.020 She wrote in her newsletter this week that when she was editing, I think the Daily Beast,

01:18:48.160 she found, she also found Jeffrey Epstein.

01:18:50.120 She came back from lunch or somewhere and there he was sitting in her office.

01:18:53.520 I mean, normal people don't behave like this, Megan.

01:18:56.140 No, no.

01:18:57.520 They don't.

01:18:58.080 I mean, he's obviously looking to intimidate you.

01:18:59.200 Yeah, that's exactly right.

01:19:01.920 And obviously back then, the, the same system of soft power, soft male power that we were

01:19:09.920 talking about earlier worked very effectively for him because the sisters were cut from

01:19:14.480 the piece.

01:19:16.200 Oh, have you ever talked to Graydon Carter about, and I know editors make these decisions

01:19:20.180 and so on, but with the benefit of hindsight, how he feels about that decision?

01:19:25.600 Yeah, no.

01:19:26.240 So Graydon Carter, you know, rather, you know, predictably, you know, came out and just,

01:19:32.640 you know, made all sorts of allegations about my reporting and, you know, how I'm a, I'm a

01:19:39.740 terrible journalist.

01:19:40.300 But the problem with that argument is that I then worked at Vanity Fair and wrote a large

01:19:46.580 number of their significant pieces for a further decade or four.

01:19:52.340 So I can't have been that terrible a reporter.

01:19:55.740 Wow.

01:19:56.740 God, that's so annoying.

01:19:58.060 I mean, you could, you had him, you had him.

01:20:00.200 And you think about the number of girls who were abused from 2003 forward.

01:20:04.940 I mean, the government in their disclosure last Monday is saying over a thousand victims

01:20:08.860 in 2007.

01:20:10.360 And that plea deal, they put it at 30.

01:20:12.100 So, I mean, it just, you wonder if, if, if there had been more courage like you had,

01:20:18.540 how many girls could have been saved?

01:20:21.320 All right.

01:20:21.580 Let me switch gears with you because I do want to talk about Kohlberger and I know you

01:20:24.560 don't have all day.

01:20:26.060 So you've written this book with the very famous James Patterson and it's called, hold on a

01:20:32.620 second.

01:20:32.800 I want to make sure I have it here.

01:20:34.060 It's called The Idaho Four, An American Tragedy. 0.58

01:20:36.780 Okay.

01:20:36.960 Again, by Vicki Ward.

01:20:38.020 I'm my guest today, Vicki Ward and James Patterson, everybody knows.

01:20:41.560 And you've interviewed, my understanding is over 300 people to try to get to the bottom

01:20:47.380 of some new facts around these horrific murders.

01:20:52.260 And one of the things you've managed to confirm, you tell me what the big news items are, but

01:20:56.480 is that you do believe that Maddie Mogan was the target.

01:21:00.600 That's the target.

01:21:01.680 Yes.

01:21:02.080 And, you know, I went and traced Kohlberger's footsteps and, you know, the routes he drove

01:21:10.840 that the police know about.

01:21:12.600 And the only, you know, there's only one place you could park behind the house where they all

01:21:22.920 lived on King Road in Moscow.

01:21:25.460 And when you park your car there at this cul-de-sac at the back, the house is no longer there.

01:21:30.680 But when it was there, you had a direct view really onto one person's bedroom.

01:21:38.820 And that was Maddie Mogan.

01:21:40.880 And in fact, I went, I went there one time with a young woman and friend of theirs who lived

01:21:45.640 next door, a woman called Lexi Patterson. 0.98

01:21:47.560 And she would say that she would come out to her car most evenings, because that's where

01:21:52.640 she parked her car.

01:21:53.700 And they all had the lights on glaring brightly, never thinking that anyone would be watching

01:22:02.160 from the road and that she would see most evenings Maddie in the window at her vanity, curling her

01:22:10.020 hair, you know, doing her makeup.

01:22:12.140 And it used to make this young friend of theirs smile.

01:22:16.820 And of course, she no longer was smiling when she thought that it appeared from the police

01:22:21.180 report that Brian Coburger would have been sitting in his car watching the house at least

01:22:28.040 12 times prior to the night of the murders in November the 13th, 2022.

01:22:33.780 So that was a thing.

01:22:34.660 Exactly what room she was in and where to go when he entered.

01:22:38.020 Yes.

01:22:38.460 And that it seemed from the social media digital footprint that he had, you know, he'd slipped

01:22:47.300 into the DMs of all three of the women.

01:22:51.340 But the only one of them who he really liked the photos and all the rest of it of by herself

01:23:00.100 was Maddie.

01:23:01.160 If he liked pictures of Kaylee.

01:23:02.500 That's new.

01:23:03.220 I did not know that.

01:23:04.020 He actually did slip into the DMs of the other.

01:23:06.620 Yes.

01:23:06.960 Of who?

01:23:07.580 Yes.

01:23:07.660 No, that's, that's, that is in there.

01:23:09.700 That is, that is in the court record.

01:23:11.940 But my understanding from some of the families is that, so for example, while he might have

01:23:18.360 liked pictures of Kaylee, Maddie's best friend, it was always with, when Kaylee was in pictures

01:23:23.820 with Maddie, Maddie was, I think the only one who he, you know, there were pictures of her

01:23:31.860 solo that, um, he, he clearly had an internet, um, relationship with, whether or not he had

01:23:42.940 met her in person.

01:23:45.900 And then the close friends, I say this in the book, the very close friends, um, including

01:23:51.560 the young woman and her boyfriend who actually found the bodies, um, inside the house the

01:23:58.300 next day.

01:23:58.980 It's their belief, um, and obviously that it's their best guess at this point.

01:24:04.480 It's their belief given that none of them recognized Koberger, um, but they, they figured

01:24:10.980 that he was a vegan that Maddie had worked, um, at this restaurant, the Mad Greek in Moscow,

01:24:17.300 where they served a lot of vegan, um, food and she was, you know, she was devastatingly pretty 1.00

01:24:24.380 blonde, um, and that's their, it's their best guess that, um, she probably, people were always 1.00

01:24:32.200 asking her out and she was always sort of flicking her hair and saying no. I mean, she had a serious

01:24:37.580 boyfriend, um, and, but that is their best guess that that's what happened. I do also detail in the

01:24:44.780 book, how Koberger, because he was a criminology PhD student, he had studied serial killers and

01:24:52.700 spree killers, and he'd studied Ted Bundy, but he'd also studied when he was a psychology, um,

01:24:59.260 major as an undergrad at DeSales University, he'd studied a guy called Elliot Roger, who was sort of

01:25:06.040 hero of the incel movement, uh, the involuntary celibate movement. And there, and, and Elliot Roger

01:25:12.940 had been a college student out in California going between two college towns in the same way that

01:25:20.060 Koberger years later was going between Washington, Pullman and Washington State, where he was in

01:25:26.000 college, and Moscow, which is where the University of Idaho was. These two college towns are just a 10

01:25:32.040 mile drive apart. Back in 2014, this guy, Elliot Roger, was a college student out in Santa Barbara,

01:25:39.140 and he made all these videos and made, wrote a manifesto of how he was going to go out and murder the

01:25:46.260 sorority girls, um, who had rejected him. He had also, he wrote that he was going to take revenge on his

01:25:54.920 childhood best friend called Maddie. Um, and there were, you know, there are a lot of striking similarities

01:26:03.480 between what Elliot Roger, uh, went and did and Elliot Roger's misogynistic views of women

01:26:11.400 and Brian Koberger's, I mean, the other thing, the book details. We talked about that a bit.

01:26:17.140 Yeah, well, it shows, it shows, I think, how when Koberger got to Washington State University,

01:26:24.080 I mean, this is a guy who'd overcome heroin addiction and he'd come from, you know, extreme

01:26:31.360 poverty. So you would think that to overcome all of that and arrive at a prestigious university to

01:26:39.560 get a PhD in criminology, that this ought to be the apex, um, of your career, but it, it all very

01:26:48.580 quickly goes really wrong for Brian Koberger because he is unable to keep his heinous views of women,

01:26:55.200 um, to himself, both in the classroom and outside of him. And I, you know, I sort of show in the book

01:27:02.780 how, um, his, his tenure there, his, he, you know, completely unravels as he gets pulled in front of

01:27:11.720 the administration again and again and again. And it's very clear that by the time that he commits

01:27:18.120 the murders, he knows it's game over at Washington State University, he's lost his teaching position

01:27:24.760 and therefore his funding, he's basically not going to be welcome back there. And, um,

01:27:33.080 Nothing left to lose.

01:27:34.400 He's got nothing left to lose. That's exactly right. Except to try and commit in his twisted mind,

01:27:40.980 the perfect crime. And I think the book explains also how the investigators,

01:27:44.800 it almost was the perfect crime. There's one mistake was leaving the knife sheath by

01:27:52.440 Maddie Morgan's bed with the DNA on it. But you, you really can tell what the way I tell the tick

01:27:58.940 tock, tick tock of the investigation that the police really had nothing for weeks and weeks and weeks.

01:28:07.020 They couldn't put the jigsaw puzzle together until the labs finally came back and they were able to

01:28:13.860 use this quite new technique called investigative genetic genealogy, where they're able to use

01:28:20.460 these websites like 23andMe and they can construct a family tree from the tiniest speck of DNA. And

01:28:29.200 once they were able to do that, then all the other pieces, then they were able to match the car and

01:28:34.600 find the driver's license. And then they were able to look at the security cameras.

01:28:38.160 It's amazing. We've talked on the show before to Cece Moore, who's really the godmother of

01:28:44.460 genetic genealogy. And she really was kind of saying, it's not possible to be a serial killer

01:28:52.320 and get away with it in modern day America because of this. Because one speck of touched DNA can be

01:28:59.560 tracked down through these genetic genealogists. They're only supposed to go through the public

01:29:04.880 databases, but it came out in this case that they did go through the private ones.

01:29:09.800 They did.

01:29:10.400 And they nailed Kohlberger's father as having some link to this speck of DNA. They could tell this

01:29:18.080 was the father of the killer, basically the hit that they found in their genetic genealogy.

01:29:23.460 And then it was just a matter of time before they got Brian Kohlberger's actual cheek swab and said,

01:29:28.220 no, this is actually the perfect match for the DNA that's on this knife sheath. She's like, 0.97

01:29:31.700 it's not like it wasn't during the seventies where you can have a Ted Bundy or you can have a son of

01:29:35.740 Sam, or you can have somebody, you know, going weeks or months or longer with lots of DNA left on

01:29:42.740 the scene, but just no way to pin it down unless you already had the perp in the system. It's

01:29:47.400 different today.

01:29:48.180 Right. But he, he knew that. I mean, you know, this, he, he knew that, which is why that was his

01:29:55.020 only mistake. They didn't get DNA in his car. They didn't even, when they went to stake out the

01:30:00.860 house in Pennsylvania. They, they, it's such a huge one. It's such a huge mistake. Like Vicki,

01:30:06.300 did you, were you able to figure that out? Like how, how did this guy committing the perfect crime

01:30:10.820 make such a stupid mistake?

01:30:14.420 Well, I think, you know, and this now is a little bit speculative, but if one does operate on the

01:30:21.200 assumption that he went in there targeting Maddie and not the others, it was, I mean, it was complete 0.98

01:30:29.100 random chance that Kaylee Gonzalez was there. She had moved out of that house. There were none of

01:30:33.860 her belongings in it. She was living at home. She was ready to, to go and start a new job in Texas.

01:30:39.720 So the fact that he found her in the bed with Maddie, I think one has to think was a surprise.

01:30:46.340 And it was also a little bit random that he then bumped into Zanna Curnodal coming down the stairs.

01:30:55.020 You know, yes, she often ordered food after a big night out, but I'm sure he thought that they

01:30:59.960 would be asleep. But Zanna tragically was up. She had just received a DoorDash delivery. And that's why

01:31:09.240 I think, you know, when, when her friends found her, she, she was lying on, she wasn't in bed. She,

01:31:16.480 she had fallen back into the room and sort of clearly put up a struggle. Ethan, meanwhile,

01:31:24.840 was just, had just been asleep in the bed behind her. So I think, you know, mistakes happen when people

01:31:30.540 encounter things they're not expecting. And I think one has to assume that Kobo wasn't expecting

01:31:36.680 to deal with three other people that night. Wow. The other thing is that Papa Roger,

01:31:44.020 who was posting online, same last, same last name as the serial killer, um, that you think that,

01:31:49.320 you know, we know he studied at DeSales and may have been obsessed with who killed both by knife

01:31:54.480 and by gun, but was obsessed with Alpha Phi, which is the sorority that, uh, Kaylee was in. In any event,

01:32:00.940 somebody was posting under the name Papa Roger for weeks after the murders, but before his arrest.

01:32:05.940 And this is one of the things that is so infuriating about how the plea bargain, you know,

01:32:13.640 hearing was handled where the district attorney stood up and said there was no sexual motive

01:32:19.680 whatsoever. It didn't play any role. If you look at those Papa Roger posts, which is clearly

01:32:24.960 I mean, it's clearly him. He says, he speculates there was a sexual motive behind these crimes and

01:32:32.500 speaks to the killer's sexual dysfunction. I mean, it's clearly him. It's just so infuriating the way

01:32:37.900 the whole thing was handled. The DA had no right to say that he didn't know at a, at a bare minimum,

01:32:43.360 he didn't know what was in Kohlberger's head and what sort of enjoyment he got committing those

01:32:49.500 murders or didn't. So he was not in a position to say that. And secondly, if you believe he's Papa

01:32:54.480 Roger, which I 100% do, he is suggesting that there was a sexual motive and some gratification

01:32:59.720 that happened on the spot. Right. Well, I think one of the families I know of the victims had hoped

01:33:08.560 to get some answers, particularly from Washington State University. Had they had had this thing gone

01:33:17.780 to trial? Because, you know, yes, questions about Papa Roger, but also questions, Megan, about the

01:33:24.400 First Amendment on college campuses, because, you know, when does free speech become dangerous? And when

01:33:31.460 should colleges do something about it? I think there were clearly red flags that Kohlberger showed on that

01:33:38.160 campus. And I think the victims' families wanted to know more and wanted to know if there was some

01:33:44.160 culpability on the part of the college. They'll never get the answers to that now. And they'll

01:33:48.720 never get the answers to Papa Roger. I do know that the police had, were following the Papa Roger

01:33:55.160 digital footprint. They definitely were looking at it. I don't know what, I don't know what their

01:34:00.580 findings were. Well, hopefully when they raise the gag order, lift the gag order and we start to get

01:34:06.160 everything in the case, we'll see that because there's just no way they wouldn't know. You can

01:34:09.460 trace that. The URL is traceable. Although he was clever in other ways. So I'm weary whether he was

01:34:15.340 smart enough never to do it at his own computer. And I don't know. But the other thing I wanted to

01:34:20.280 mention is you have an extraordinary new detail about the roommate who saw Kohlberger in the murder

01:34:29.400 house, the night of the murders, Dylan Mortensen, who, this is the first time I've read her more full

01:34:38.880 description of what she saw. Can you speak to that a bit?

01:34:42.920 Yeah, no. So she, you know, and this is a young woman who actually, I felt very sorry for her when

01:34:50.060 I sort of really understood what had happened because, you know, she's a college student. It had

01:34:55.600 been a massive party day on that campus. It had been a football game day and they'd all had a huge

01:35:02.820 amount to drink. And so when she, and this is a house where people come and go all the time. They

01:35:11.200 had this big deck at the back. So it was definitely a destination where a lot of people came in and out

01:35:16.900 and liked to go to party. So when she initially sort of hears this noise and she pops out of her

01:35:24.320 bedroom and looks around, she actually goes in and out two or three times. But it's the third time

01:35:29.580 she sees this guy and she thinks he must be a firefighter. And he's dressed in black. He's got

01:35:36.320 this black mask on, but he's holding something that looks like a black vacuum. And, you know,

01:35:46.160 she's like, is there a fire? What's going on? And she, you know, she was frightened enough to go back

01:35:52.960 into her room and look for her taser, which was, which was, uh, flat. Um, and then, and then she

01:36:01.700 texts, you know, she texted around with the others and she texted with Bethany Funk, the other roommate

01:36:07.060 who was in the basement. And when, you know, when I, again, when I went to look at that house, the

01:36:10.940 basement, Bethany Funk wouldn't have heard a thing. Um, and eventually she sprints down to Bethany Funk, 1.00

01:36:19.120 but she thinks she's just had a lot to drink and that she's hallucinating and that she's gone

01:36:25.020 mad. And that's why there was this delay. And it's not then until sort of 10, 11 o'clock the next

01:36:32.820 morning where she reaches out to this, this great friend of hers, Emily. And even Emily, when Beth,

01:36:38.500 when Dylan says, can you come over? I think, I think maybe someone was here. I saw something

01:36:43.400 completely strange last night. Emily doesn't take us seriously because it's not the first time

01:36:48.840 that Dylan Mortensen has sort of hallucinated or, you know, seen things after, after a big party day.

01:36:55.820 So, you know, I think that one of the themes in the book is the sort of the, the cruelty and the harm

01:37:02.620 that happened as a result of the sort of true crime mania, um, that a lot of these kids who were

01:37:10.060 already dealing with shock and loss and, and fear in that first six weeks. Cause they wondered if

01:37:15.240 whoever had killed their friends was now coming for them. They then, you know, looked at their

01:37:19.940 social media accounts and they were now being accused of being the murderers themselves on top

01:37:25.520 of it. So, um, real, real harm that was done. Wow. We, we have never had this greater window into

01:37:36.840 Dylan Mortensen, the mysterious roommate who laid eyes on Brian Kohlbergers, but moments after he

01:37:42.900 committed these four murders, this is, this is great and stunning new information. The book again

01:37:46.580 is called the Idaho four and American tragedy at the Idaho four and American tragedy. It's by Vicki

01:37:52.020 Ward, my guest today and James Patterson. Vicki, you are just a wealth of information. Thank you so

01:37:57.400 much for being our guest today. Please come back. I would love to. Thank you so much for having me,

01:38:02.060 Megan. Wow. Great job on, on all the stories that you've been recovering. This is, these are both

01:38:07.620 very impressive pieces of journalism. All the best to you. No, well, thank you. Thank you for having me.

01:38:12.200 Take care. Incredible. Right. So again, don't, don't forget to buy it. It's called the Idaho four

01:38:17.640 and American tragedy. I have to say, I want to, I want to read, I haven't yet read Vicki's book,

01:38:23.320 but I want to read this. I would like to read a cover to cover. I feel like I need a settling.

01:38:27.200 Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like I need a settling after that whole thing. You know,

01:38:32.420 I said to you guys, I was the one advantage of it pleading out was I was glad I didn't have to

01:38:36.740 keep talking about it because it's just so dark. Brian Kohlberger is such a dark, dark figure,

01:38:41.200 but as a human on this earth, there's a desire to understand the dangers that are out there and

01:38:49.140 better understand how to stop them. Like that detail, we speculated about this of him possibly

01:38:55.300 first seeing Maddie in the vegan restaurant, which we, we had basically deduced, but you know,

01:39:00.420 Vicki's got it a little closer. Um, he's a vegan. She worked at a vegan restaurant that would make

01:39:06.500 perfect sense. And I think back to the comment of Steve Gonsalves, who was angry about the DA

01:39:12.340 settling this without a requirement that Brian Kohlberger copped to motive cop to some of the

01:39:16.500 facts behind like how he met them or how he first started thinking about the one Maddie or other

01:39:21.040 that made him walk in there that night. And he said, I, I want to know what was the beginning

01:39:26.420 of the end. Oh, just gives me chills just saying it. And maybe, maybe that was how, maybe it's going

01:39:33.760 to be reporters like Vicki that help us really know those things. Um, she's a great writer and

01:39:39.760 you can see she, she's done some in-depth reporter reporting on some very well-known figures. So

01:39:45.320 thanks to all of you for listening today and every day. And thanks to Vicki and, uh, we will be back

01:39:51.760 tomorrow with more. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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The Megyn Kelly Show - July 15, 2025

Jeffrey Epstein's Past Threats, Intel Associations, and How He Really Got So Rich, with Vicky Ward ｜ Ep. 1108

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