The Megyn Kelly Show - Jocko Willink on Responding to Adversity, Personal Responsibility and Victimhood, and Parenting

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00:00:30.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.540 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:41.540 Hey everybody, it's Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.300 Welcome to the program.

00:00:44.340 Today, we've got Jocko Willink.

00:00:47.340 This is a U.S. Navy SEAL, a best-selling author,

00:00:52.100 the CEO of a group called Echelon Front,

00:00:54.480 which is a leadership expert consulting firm,

00:00:58.280 and host of the Jocko Willink podcast,

00:01:00.500 which if you haven't checked out, you should.

00:01:02.540 This guy is basically an all-around guru for how to improve your life.

00:01:06.900 He's the opposite of the helicopter parent.

00:01:09.600 He's the opposite of the person who feels victimized by everything in life.

00:01:13.940 He's the opposite of the person who wants to blame everyone else for their own circumstances.

00:01:18.720 He is a take-responsibility kind of SEAL.

00:01:21.420 Is there any other kind?

00:01:23.860 And if you don't know who this is,

00:01:25.520 he was the commanding officer of the most highly decorated special ops unit of the Iraq war.

00:01:30.320 He commanded our best and bravest,

00:01:32.580 including the American sniper, Chris Kyle.

00:01:34.720 Remember him?

00:01:35.300 And many, many others.

00:01:37.660 The guy's had multiple deployments,

00:01:39.840 a couple to Iraq and other areas as well,

00:01:41.680 including to Ramadi during the worst of the fighting that the U.S. saw there.

00:01:46.940 Came back from Iraq.

00:01:47.920 He served as the officer in charge of training for all of the West Coast SEAL teams, right?

00:01:52.120 So the guy knows something about training, leadership, how to take charge.

00:01:55.880 And he's received everything from the Silver Star and the Bronze Star, which is amazing,

00:01:59.720 to numerous other personal and team awards.

00:02:03.300 And today he is a leadership expert.

00:02:04.900 He's a motivational speaker.

00:02:05.980 He's a mentor.

00:02:07.160 He's an author.

00:02:08.540 He's a dad.

00:02:09.340 He's a husband.

00:02:10.240 I'm going to ask him about that.

00:02:11.820 What was it like when his daughter's boyfriends came over to the house?

00:02:14.100 Can you imagine?

00:02:15.040 Can you imagine?

00:02:16.300 The boss of the American sniper?

00:02:18.660 I mean, and he's got some really funny parenting stories that I think you'll appreciate.

00:02:23.540 And also just some heart-wrenching ones about his time in Ramadi and the losses that we suffered as a country there,

00:02:30.040 but that he suffered as a man and a SEAL there.

00:02:34.980 And I think you'll find him just an example in how to live, how to live right, how to live well.

00:02:40.520 And you'll figure out why he's known to his brethren as the wise warrior.

00:02:44.600 We'll get to Jocko in just one second, but first.

00:02:54.160 Let's get down to brass tacks and talk about how I can be a leader like Jocko Willink because you got some thoughts and I'm loving every one of them.

00:03:03.340 Honestly, after reading through so much of your stuff and I've listened to so many of your podcasts now and your interviews with other people because I really wanted to prepare for this.

00:03:10.900 I just deeply respect you.

00:03:12.680 I thought to myself, one of the benefits of my own life has been being exposed to a lot of men in particular in the military, but men and women in the military,

00:03:20.580 because that's what you sound like military men and women are no bullshit.

00:03:25.800 They don't see themselves as victims.

00:03:27.720 They're strong.

00:03:28.620 They lean into strength.

00:03:30.080 They're humble.

00:03:31.680 They want to know more about other people.

00:03:33.960 When I heard all these attributes about you and what you say it takes to make a leader, I thought, this is what being in the military does to you.

00:03:41.060 So before we get to that, let's start.

00:03:42.640 Let's talk about little Jocko, because I was curious, like a guy as strong as you are, not even just your physical strength.

00:03:49.040 I'm talking about your emotional strength.

00:03:50.580 Are you born like that?

00:03:51.720 Did you come into this world, sort of born to be the Jocko you are now?

00:03:55.640 Or were you kind of like the little weakling who got pushed around by other kids and then resolved to be different?

00:04:01.480 Well, that's kind of a cool thing about when you're little is when you're a little kid, there's always going to be kids that are bigger than you.

00:04:07.320 If they're two years older than you, they're bigger than you and they're stronger than you.

00:04:10.560 And so if you're a kid, you're always going to get you're always going to be picked on by people no matter who you are.

00:04:16.200 So I think that's going to come to everybody.

00:04:18.900 And certainly, you know, that was that was me, too.

00:04:21.060 I would get I would talk too much or say something that I should have said to something, somebody that was older than me or bigger than me.

00:04:27.660 And I'd have to pay the price just like anybody else does at that young age.

00:04:31.760 And but but ever since I was a little kid, the only thing I actually ever remember wanting to do as far as a profession was was to be some kind of a commando.

00:04:41.680 And so that's what I ended up doing.

00:04:44.540 You know, I ran around in the woods and played army all the time when I was a kid.

00:04:47.900 And then I just never grew up.

00:04:49.200 But, yeah, so that's all I ever wanted to do.

00:04:51.700 So you're from Litchfield County, Connecticut.

00:04:53.620 Is that right?

00:04:54.760 Yeah.

00:04:55.360 OK, so this is so for the listeners who don't know this, this is like one of the most beautiful places on Earth.

00:04:59.760 It's bucolic.

00:05:00.720 It's a little sleepy.

00:05:02.300 It's much more country than it is city.

00:05:04.820 And it's where all of New York would love to go and spend their weekends, but it's too expensive.

00:05:09.340 But it's amazing.

00:05:10.240 And I wondered, like, I can picture you running around the woods up there.

00:05:14.600 But politically, it's about it's a little bit more Republican leaning these days than it than I think it used to be.

00:05:19.760 But were you part of a political family growing up?

00:05:24.520 You know, both my parents were schoolteachers.

00:05:26.520 And so, you know, they were just kind of working all the time.

00:05:31.260 And, you know, my dad would have some other jobs to help bring in money.

00:05:35.140 And so they were just working all the time.

00:05:36.960 I wouldn't say we were the most political family.

00:05:39.460 In the world, you know, my dad's pretty conservative.

00:05:43.160 My mom's a little a little more liberal.

00:05:46.240 And I really didn't care very much and just wanted to go in the military.

00:05:51.060 Did you have other other people in the military in your family?

00:05:54.740 My grandfather was in the army for 20 years.

00:05:57.620 And so he retired out of the army.

00:06:00.160 But my dad, my dad got kicked out of ROTC.

00:06:04.180 So my dad always says that the military gene skips a generation.

00:06:07.800 So that was my but in Connecticut, in that small part of Connecticut, there's not a lot of people that go in the military.

00:06:16.180 So I was a little bit I mean, I was definitely naive, not not very, very well informed about what I was getting into.

00:06:22.800 But I just knew I wanted to hopefully carry a machine gun one day.

00:06:26.300 So that's what I did.

00:06:27.760 Were you a tough guy in high school?

00:06:29.680 Like, you know, was the was the Jacko of today predictable at all based on if I saw the sophomore year of high school, you?

00:06:36.920 Yep.

00:06:37.940 You the track is pretty clear.

00:06:41.020 How so?

00:06:41.680 I mean, you just see, you know, I was just I was just kind of into that in that mentality.

00:06:47.520 You know, I got in trouble on my soccer team for singing military cadences while we were, you know, running and stuff like that.

00:06:56.740 So that's what I wanted to do.

00:06:58.940 Yeah.

00:06:59.740 Pretty ridiculous.

00:07:00.580 I know.

00:07:01.020 It's amazing.

00:07:01.480 It was like in you and you knew it.

00:07:03.080 I mean, is it true that your dad had doubts?

00:07:05.660 Yeah.

00:07:05.980 So I was also I was also a very rebellious kid.

00:07:09.400 So I liked kind of hardcore and heavy metal music.

00:07:14.060 And I had I've always have and still have a rebellious streak in me that runs pretty strong.

00:07:20.860 And so my dad, when I I didn't even tell my dad I was joining the Navy, I just came home one day and said, I joined the Navy.

00:07:27.220 And he said, what are you going to do in the Navy?

00:07:28.520 And I said, I'm going to go on the SEAL teams.

00:07:30.320 And he said, you're going to hate it.

00:07:31.960 And I said, well, why do you think I'm going to hate it?

00:07:33.800 And he said, because you don't like authority and you don't like anybody telling you what to do.

00:07:36.700 And I said, yeah, but dad, I'm going in the SEAL teams.

00:07:39.640 It's a team.

00:07:40.380 There's no bosses in the SEAL teams.

00:07:42.020 And of course, that's completely naive to think that.

00:07:45.080 But once I got in there, I was very happy because it's a blank slate.

00:07:50.020 No one cared where you came from.

00:07:51.540 No one cared what you did or didn't do.

00:07:53.340 They didn't care if your parents had money or didn't have money.

00:07:55.440 It's just a it's just a blank slate.

00:07:57.600 And if you work hard, you move up and you get recognized and you get more responsibility.

00:08:03.360 And with more responsibility, you can do more.

00:08:05.660 So it was a great environment for me.

00:08:07.340 I loved it.

00:08:08.620 Total meritocracy.

00:08:09.900 A hundred percent.

00:08:11.040 So now I read that your father told you, and this would become relevant to your SEAL training,

00:08:15.420 of course, you were not allowed to quit anything.

00:08:17.860 You couldn't quit anything.

00:08:18.960 And I thought, nothing?

00:08:20.540 Like, what if what if you selected the wrong arts and crafts course?

00:08:23.240 Like, how seriously did you guys take that?

00:08:25.300 Yeah, my dad was not a real big fan of quitting things.

00:08:28.440 So I think that definitely got ingrained in me as a young kid.

00:08:32.120 And, you know, I it's it's I think it's a pretty good trait to have.

00:08:37.400 And, you know, as I grew up and I actually recognize that if taken to an extreme, just

00:08:41.720 like anything else, it can actually become a negative thing.

00:08:44.260 And I'd get these young SEAL officers when I much later in my career, when I was in charge

00:08:48.060 of training that would try and execute some kind of a training mission.

00:08:52.380 And they would be failing and getting the guys shot with paintball and failing the mission

00:08:57.600 and having guys put down and they would keep going and keep going and keep going.

00:09:02.660 And I would pull them aside and say, hey, look, there's a time to retreat.

00:09:05.800 You know, it's not necessarily quitting, but there's a time you got to back off, retreat,

00:09:09.120 reassess the situation and then go back at it.

00:09:11.820 But, yeah, I'm not really big into quitting.

00:09:14.640 And I would say that definitely came from my dad.

00:09:16.480 Now, is it to the point where if you if you start a book and it's bad, will you keep

00:09:22.080 going like just because you need to finish the book or will you abandon it?

00:09:26.140 No, if books aren't good, I'm not wasting my time with them.

00:09:29.700 So I read a ton of books for my podcast and usually I can make it I can tell within 10

00:09:36.240 pages if this book is a winner or loser.

00:09:38.600 And if it's a loser, I shut that book and I move on to the next one.

00:09:41.620 Yes.

00:09:41.960 OK, I like that because I know you also are a big believer in not wasting time.

00:09:45.060 It's our most precious commodity.

00:09:46.400 So I'm with you 100 percent.

00:09:47.880 My husband, Doug, he he can't do it.

00:09:50.100 He's an author and he just can't like no matter whether he likes the book or not, he will finish

00:09:54.260 it.

00:09:54.800 I point the audience to the book Hirohito, which was like 2000 pages and poor Doug was

00:09:59.920 not enjoying it.

00:10:00.660 But man, he labored through.

00:10:02.600 And I just thought, why?

00:10:03.720 But but why?

00:10:04.720 You don't you don't have to live.

00:10:05.740 It's like when somebody serves you a bad drink, you don't have to finish that bad meal.

00:10:09.120 You don't have to eat that.

00:10:10.380 We only get to live once.

00:10:11.460 OK, so you're you're in the perfect spot when you find yourself in the Navy at

00:10:15.060 18.

00:10:15.700 Did you do it like as soon as you could?

00:10:17.380 Yep.

00:10:18.200 Yep.

00:10:18.460 I did 18 years old.

00:10:19.440 OK, and you knew it was going to be SEAL team.

00:10:21.100 And forgive me, because this I don't know.

00:10:23.100 Do you sign up for SEAL training right away or do you have to spend some time in the Navy

00:10:27.880 before you can try to be a specialist?

00:10:29.800 I signed right up for SEAL training.

00:10:32.040 And you've got to pass a bunch of screening tests when you get to boot camp and as you

00:10:35.800 graduate from boot camp.

00:10:36.800 And then but my contract was I got a chance to take those tests.

00:10:41.640 And if I pass those tests, I got to got to go to SEAL training.

00:10:45.020 And that's exactly what I did.

00:10:47.560 And you you saw it then and you see it now, I imagine, as as an opportunity, a great opportunity

00:10:52.200 for young people.

00:10:53.160 Yeah, I mean, it's awesome.

00:10:56.800 It's so fun getting paid to work out a bunch and they feed you a ton of food and you get

00:11:03.040 to go to sleep sometimes in a bed.

00:11:06.020 Yeah, I loved it.

00:11:07.080 It was awesome.

00:11:08.500 Well, I thought I mean, like what I've heard you talk about it before, you just sound so

00:11:11.640 enthusiastic about it.

00:11:12.880 And it made me think of the John Kerry comment.

00:11:16.640 Remember when he once told those college students, if you make an effort to be smart, you can do

00:11:21.120 well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq.

00:11:24.680 And there was such shock from the military community when he said that, because when you're

00:11:29.420 in the military or related to it in any way, you do see it.

00:11:32.960 You see it as an honor.

00:11:34.020 And a lot of guys serving to see it as downright fun and just a great way to spend your life.

00:11:38.940 And I don't know.

00:11:40.320 Do you remember that comment?

00:11:41.460 Do you remember having a reaction to that?

00:11:42.620 Because that was right around the time you were serving.

00:11:44.900 Yeah, I mean, look, I would love to have him come and talk to one of my SEAL platoons.

00:11:51.120 A bunch of the smartest guys.

00:11:52.840 Look, you got some knuckleheads in there.

00:11:54.340 Absolutely.

00:11:55.240 You got some of the smartest guys that you could imagine as well.

00:11:57.960 I mean, one of the guys that was in Iraq with me on my last deployment was Johnny Kim,

00:12:02.960 who right now, after he was a medic for us in my task unit, he went on to go to college,

00:12:09.300 become an officer, go to medical school at Harvard.

00:12:12.060 And then from Harvard, he got picked up for the astronaut program.

00:12:14.800 And he's an astronaut right now.

00:12:16.780 So maybe he's not quite what John Kerry had in mind when he was thinking that the people

00:12:21.660 in the military and in Iraq were not very smart.

00:12:25.780 So you get to the Navy and to the surprise of your dad, I guess, you followed the rules

00:12:30.500 just fine.

00:12:31.480 Actually, it appealed to you, right?

00:12:33.620 I mean, it seems like in reading like your book, Leadership Strategies, you loved that it

00:12:39.840 was very clear what you needed to do to get ahead.

00:12:42.420 And if you could follow the rules, do what you were told to do, you could be a leader

00:12:46.760 in the Navy.

00:12:47.560 And for you, I imagine that just you felt like that was home.

00:12:52.100 Yeah, it was awesome.

00:12:53.620 And, you know, I had a lot of, let's say, energy as a young as a young kid.

00:12:59.380 And all of a sudden, you know, when you're in high school or grade school, you have all

00:13:04.880 this energy, you don't know what to do with it.

00:13:06.160 And usually it got me into some kind of trouble, whether it was, you know, causing problems

00:13:11.120 or fighting or just doing things that I shouldn't have been doing.

00:13:14.020 All of a sudden, once I was in the Navy, it's you could apply that energy to a positive to

00:13:19.580 in a positive direction.

00:13:20.560 And I just wanted to do that.

00:13:23.540 And then the other thing was, I really, what I wanted to do is I wanted to be a good seal.

00:13:29.680 I wanted to be a good seal.

00:13:30.700 And so as I, as I kind of brought that into my decision-making process and I look, would

00:13:37.640 look at some decision I had to make, would that make me a better seal or not?

00:13:41.240 And if it wasn't going to make me a better seal, I wouldn't do it.

00:13:43.760 If it was going to make me a better seal, then I would do it.

00:13:46.420 And it was, you know, it's not easy.

00:13:48.180 I'm not, you're working with some people in the seal teams that are incredibly gifted

00:13:54.620 in all aspects, incredible athletes, you know, incredibly smart, just, just a bunch

00:14:01.800 of incredible people at the top end of the bell curve in the seal team.

00:14:05.060 So for me, I had to, I had to go hard and work hard to sort of, to sort of break out and

00:14:10.880 do a good job.

00:14:11.580 And that's what I just, that's what I focused on.

00:14:14.800 And you've said this about yourself repeatedly.

00:14:16.500 I, I've now come to conclude at first, I thought you're just being humble because you

00:14:20.680 are humble and I know you prize humility, but I believe you now that you weren't the

00:14:24.680 best at all these things because you've touted it repeatedly as something for people to consider.

00:14:30.140 Like life doesn't come easy.

00:14:31.780 Success doesn't come easy.

00:14:33.140 And you may not start off perfectly suited for the thing that you really want to do,

00:14:38.440 but it doesn't mean you can't do it.

00:14:40.380 And it doesn't mean you can't be great at it, but man, it does mean you're going to have

00:14:44.660 to try hard, you're going to have to put in more than the 10,000 hours, right?

00:14:48.920 I mean, it's about hard work.

00:14:50.500 Yeah, no doubt.

00:14:51.740 And I can promise you, I was a average at best high school athlete in soccer and basketball.

00:15:00.180 I can promise you that, you know, I, I, I'm not extremely strong or fast or anything like

00:15:07.080 that and I just had to work hard.

00:15:09.840 So that's what I did.

00:15:12.380 You said something to the effect of you loved your job.

00:15:15.400 And if you, if you're in the military, your job is awesome.

00:15:17.740 It's quoting you, you shoot machine guns, you blow things up, you jump out of airplanes,

00:15:21.140 you do have to kill people.

00:15:22.840 So you have to overcome the sort of human ideal of thou shalt not kill.

00:15:26.500 And you also have to understand that people are going to try to kill you and they may succeed.

00:15:30.840 So talk to me about fear, because I would think that at the beginning, and I know it

00:15:36.500 took you 13 years before you actually, you know, had to fire your, your gun and, and you

00:15:41.140 were deployed over in Iraq, but it's hard to believe that there isn't, that that's all

00:15:45.840 an adrenaline rush and there's no fear.

00:15:49.060 Um, well, I guess if you, if that's what you really like doing, then it's not, then there's

00:15:57.720 not really a lot of fear involved.

00:16:00.720 It's more, a lot of fun.

00:16:03.100 And for me, you know, going into combat, the thing that I was afraid of, it wasn't anything

00:16:07.980 of me being afraid of getting hurt myself.

00:16:10.620 It was always just being afraid that one of my guys was going to get wounded or killed.

00:16:14.480 And that's the, that's the feeling that would put the knots in, in my stomach more than

00:16:19.260 anything else.

00:16:20.100 But you know, when you're, when you're young, when you're a young kid and they give you

00:16:26.340 the opportunity to jump out of airplanes, it's awesome.

00:16:29.260 I mean, it's fun.

00:16:30.540 That's what you want to do.

00:16:31.800 So, uh, yeah, I think, I think fear and, and, you know, any fear that I ever had of,

00:16:37.920 of getting killed or something like that.

00:16:39.980 I, I just kind of accepted it and moved on.

00:16:43.620 Didn't think too much about it.

00:16:44.860 Do you remember a time where you felt fearful?

00:16:49.020 Like I said, the times that I've been fearful normally would be going on an operation and being

00:16:55.860 afraid that one of my guys was going to get hurt or killed that, that to me is a fear

00:17:00.000 that, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a gut wrenching feeling thinking about that.

00:17:05.900 And it's, and it doesn't go away.

00:17:07.700 It's there all the time when, when guys are in the field, um, as far as being afraid myself,

00:17:15.080 normally in situations where, you know, Oh, we're getting shot at or, Oh, we're getting

00:17:20.500 mortared or, Oh, there's a, we're in an ambush right now.

00:17:24.740 You're just kind of reacting the way that you trained to do.

00:17:27.720 And you're going to execute your, you don't have time to think about, I'm afraid right

00:17:31.460 now because you're just doing, you're just doing the job.

00:17:35.220 And, and the other thing is, and I've talked to on my podcast with, with some, some, with

00:17:39.880 a lot of veterans and, and guys from world war two that went into Iwo Jima and went into

00:17:45.440 Tarawa.

00:17:45.880 A lot of those guys weren't afraid either.

00:17:47.800 Cause you get this feeling that it's just good.

00:17:49.960 It's nothing's going to happen to me.

00:17:50.860 It's going to happen to somebody else.

00:17:52.280 So you got that going for you as well.

00:17:54.100 And I, I always had a little bit of that too, of, Hey, I'm going to be okay.

00:17:58.540 And they can't, they can't get me.

00:18:01.060 So let's go.

00:18:02.440 That explains a lot.

00:18:03.740 I mean, you do, you see these videos of guys storming the beach at Normandy and you think,

00:18:07.360 Oh my God, like they, they don't look terrified.

00:18:10.140 Yeah.

00:18:10.440 And it'd be perfectly fine.

00:18:12.380 If you're sitting there thinking to yourself, well, Jocko is not.

00:18:15.780 Very smart.

00:18:16.460 If he thinks he could do all this stuff and, and get away with it.

00:18:19.780 And yes, I'll say, I'll, I'll agree with you.

00:18:23.880 We, a lot of us in the military think, you know, I think, I think Megan, that if I, if

00:18:30.240 I'm on an aircraft, like on a, on a passenger jet flying over the ocean and that thing blows

00:18:34.760 up in the sky, I think I'm going to live, I'm going to figure it out.

00:18:37.760 So when you have that mentality, well, it's, you're not spending too much time being afraid.

00:18:43.300 Right.

00:18:43.660 And who knows, maybe you're manifesting wellness and survival, you know, who, who knows how

00:18:47.980 much we're able to control just with that kind of thinking in terms of our instincts

00:18:51.620 and going left instead of right.

00:18:53.300 And, you know, I'm sure there've been studies on, on this, but I believe in that power to

00:18:57.680 manifest.

00:18:58.240 And, uh, whether it works in the military or not, you'd know better than I, but why it's

00:19:03.080 better than the alternative of I'm definitely the first victim.

00:19:06.280 Yeah.

00:19:06.840 You know, I would say this, it's interesting.

00:19:08.800 I don't really know, you know, it sounds a little bit, oh, if I manifest that I'm going

00:19:13.100 to survive, I'm going to survive.

00:19:14.200 But so I'm not sure I would agree with that, but what you said that I would agree with

00:19:20.180 is if I'm going to, I know, I know that nine times out of 10, me taking action is going

00:19:26.840 to be better than me not taking action.

00:19:29.340 So if I have that in my mind and I think that way, it's, I guess it does sort of turn into

00:19:34.840 a manifestation.

00:19:35.340 So I guess I do take it back and, and I do agree with you.

00:19:37.920 If I know that taking action is the right thing to do, and it's probably going to make

00:19:41.960 me make my survivability higher than when I get confronted with something, I'm going

00:19:46.780 to do something immediately.

00:19:47.760 I'm not going to freeze.

00:19:48.580 I'm not going to lock up.

00:19:49.420 I'm going to take action.

00:19:50.620 So maybe that does in a way that mentality of I'm going to, I'm going to go as opposed

00:19:56.000 I'm going to sit back.

00:19:56.880 It seems like a better decision as far as I'm concerned.

00:20:00.660 It seems like the military helps you believe not, even if you're not a commander, which I know

00:20:05.340 you were, but that you are in charge of your destiny, that, you know, no one actually is

00:20:11.960 coming to save you necessarily.

00:20:13.140 You have, you have teammates, but you have to do something.

00:20:18.160 You have to act to help yourself.

00:20:20.320 It's, it's not up to somebody else.

00:20:22.640 And that it's one of the things I think is so good about serving, right?

00:20:26.140 And that, which I didn't, but I know enough guys who did that.

00:20:28.400 I see it where our mentality right now in this country is, you know, it's somebody else has

00:20:34.980 to fix it.

00:20:35.700 You know, I'm a victim.

00:20:36.940 Somebody else has to fix it.

00:20:38.220 And I've just been crippled by society's unfairness to me.

00:20:42.440 Well, I mean, I guess we could look around and say that.

00:20:45.020 And I, I always feel like if I'm sitting around saying that society's all weak, well, what

00:20:49.220 am I going to do about it?

00:20:50.160 Like that's almost a complaint.

00:20:52.380 It's complaining about complainers.

00:20:53.720 I don't even waste my time complaining about complainers because as you said, that's the,

00:20:58.280 that's the way you have to operate in the military is if I don't make something happen

00:21:03.340 right now, it's not going to happen.

00:21:05.340 And if I sit back and allow the world to happen to me, it's going to happen to me.

00:21:10.120 And the world is a lot bigger and stronger than I am.

00:21:12.020 So I need to go on the offense and, and make things happen.

00:21:14.780 Like you said, and, and I would say that definitely gets instilled in you inside the military,

00:21:20.600 or at least it should.

00:21:21.900 And the other, the other misconception about the military is that someone's going to tell

00:21:26.060 you exactly what to do.

00:21:27.200 And the American military doesn't work like that.

00:21:29.440 It's, it's decentralized command where you know what the objective is and you, you do

00:21:33.900 whatever it takes and maneuver, however you need to maneuver to get to that objective.

00:21:37.860 That's the way good military units operate.

00:21:40.520 There's not someone at the top with a, with a big plan that they're going to dictate to

00:21:45.280 you.

00:21:45.600 That doesn't happen.

00:21:46.560 And it shouldn't happen because that's centralized command and centralized command doesn't,

00:21:50.580 doesn't, doesn't react quickly enough to, to outdo a military that's based on decentralized

00:21:56.880 command.

00:21:57.340 So you're right.

00:21:59.060 It's, it's the mentality of, I know what it is that we're trying to achieve and I need

00:22:05.220 to go make this happen.

00:22:07.140 Not someone else.

00:22:08.500 Me.

00:22:09.200 I have to do it.

00:22:10.560 I, I just wonder, so if you're, if you're not going to waste time complaining about the

00:22:14.760 complainers, I get that.

00:22:16.040 But what do you, how do we get people in our society who have become lovers of victimhood,

00:22:23.940 right?

00:22:24.740 Lovers of things like silence is violence and words are violence from somebody who's

00:22:28.840 seen real violence and lost a bunch of friends to actual violence in war.

00:22:32.940 How do we get people out of that mentality and back to mental toughness?

00:22:37.500 I think you set a good example.

00:22:39.100 You build things, you create things, you put the word out.

00:22:41.820 You, you know, I've, I, on my podcast, I have people that can talk about what it really

00:22:47.360 means to be a victim.

00:22:48.300 You know, I, I, I had a woman on there named Rose Schindler, who was in, who was in Auschwitz

00:22:53.820 and you listen to her story and what she did to survive and how, how she had to go through

00:22:59.920 that and then move through the rest of her life and work for everything she had.

00:23:04.660 You can't with a, you can't with a good conscience, look at her and say that you're a victim.

00:23:11.920 I mean, I mean, it's almost impossible.

00:23:14.220 There's people that are out there, but there's, there's people that go through such horrible

00:23:19.060 things in life that, you know, and they still come out the other side.

00:23:23.860 They take ownership of what's going on in their world and they move forward.

00:23:26.840 So I think the best thing, well, what I try and do is just, just share stories of people

00:23:30.940 that really have been in horrible situations and the, and the indomitable human spirit can

00:23:37.700 still step up, drive forward, move on and make things happen.

00:23:41.820 And I think that that's what I try and do is, is not just set the example myself, but

00:23:47.140 more importantly is to share examples of other people that have bring in, you know, had a

00:23:53.740 guy, I had a guy on, uh, named captain Charlie Plum, who was in the Hanoi Hilton for, for six

00:23:59.400 years, for six years in the Hanoi Hilton, you know, eating next to nothing, being tortured,

00:24:04.540 being abused. Uh, I have, I've had those types of people on that. It's really hard to hear their

00:24:12.840 stories and consider yourself a victim. And if you do, if you do at the end of their stories,

00:24:18.540 you realize that you're still a victim or you, you have been a victim. Then you look at what

00:24:22.720 they did and how they handled being a victim. What they did was they took ownership of whatever

00:24:27.440 they could in their world and move forward. Well, that's something that you say often that I

00:24:32.980 completely agree with, which is you, when, when life throws challenges at you and, and it's

00:24:39.680 sometimes one is victimized somewhat, you know, I think of, think of somebody who gets raped.

00:24:44.340 Sometimes one is victimized, but a large part of the battle of handling trauma or hurt or massive

00:24:53.700 pain or setbacks is attitude. I'm not saying the attitude can solve it all, but it can solve a lot.

00:24:59.540 And you, I always say that when life throws a massive opportunity my way, right? Some massive

00:25:06.040 crisis or attack or something awful. My first reaction is to say, thank you, because that's

00:25:11.500 the only way you build your superhero muscles. You don't get stronger by sitting at home, having

00:25:17.460 nothing happen to you or only great things happen to you. You need tumult. You need challenge to get

00:25:22.920 stronger, bigger, better, the best version of yourself. And when I read that in your books,

00:25:27.180 I was like, yes, this is my brother from another mother. Cause you say that exact thing that when

00:25:31.920 something bad happens, you say good. When you did your low voice, good. Right. I mean,

00:25:38.800 talk about how important that is. Well, I can talk about it. You just talked about it, which is

00:25:42.900 you nailed it. You know, you, you use the word, thank you. When you've got some,

00:25:47.140 some thing unfolding your life that you can't control. That's, that's miserable. And you look at it

00:25:54.500 and say, okay, well, thank you. This is going to make me stronger. It's going to let me see another

00:25:57.400 perspective. It's going to allow me, it's going to force me to learn more about myself or more

00:26:01.160 about the world. And I'm going to take those lessons and I'm going to become a better person.

00:26:05.520 So it's the exact same attitude, whether you're saying thank you, or whether you're saying good,

00:26:10.240 what you don't want to do is something bad happens. Say, oh no, this is horrible. Woe is me.

00:26:17.640 I can't do anything. It's totally out of my control. Well, what, what can you control?

00:26:21.520 What, what can you control? Where can you, where can you go on offense? Where can you maneuver so

00:26:27.620 you're in a better position in the future? And I mean, the choices are that, that stark,

00:26:33.740 am I going to sit back and allow this to happen and, and be a victim in this situation? Or am I

00:26:38.740 going to go on offense? Am I going to take the fight to the enemy? And maybe, am I going to move

00:26:42.500 forward? So if people can hear that message from me, great. But it's one of those messages that's

00:26:48.980 been around for a long time. I certainly didn't invent it. You and I come from totally different

00:26:52.280 backgrounds and you figured out the best thing to do when something goes wrong is say, thank you

00:26:56.720 and, and, and move into it. So universal lessons, I, I certainly try and spread and try and hope that

00:27:04.580 people learn. In a minute, we'll have more with Jocko Willink, but first listen to this.

00:27:11.600 You've had your best friends killed in front of your very eyes. I mean, I've had terrible things

00:27:20.880 happen to me. I just had Eric Bowling on the show the other day, whose 19 year old son died from an

00:27:25.600 accidental drug overdose after taking one, what he thought was a Xanax, but really it was laced with

00:27:30.260 fentanyl. It's not, it's not that you in any way celebrate the awfulness. It's that after the

00:27:36.260 awfulness happens, there's a way of handling the recovery process that can speed it along and make

00:27:42.260 it, make yourself better, make you more. Okay. And like Eric was saying, he organized 15 town halls

00:27:48.940 and he put them on TV talking with other parents about the opioid crisis and what's happening right

00:27:53.180 now in our country. And he's reminding kids in high schools and middle schools and colleges all over

00:27:57.240 the country that one pill can kill. That to me is what we're talking about. Like you can find an

00:28:02.320 opportunity to, to make something good from, from tragedy, from horror, from horror. And even in

00:28:08.920 your own mind, if you can find a way to, to make yourself stronger, more enlightened, it's better for

00:28:16.240 you. You know, I, I think some people might look at us and say, it's not that easy, right? It's not

00:28:23.080 that easy. I remember this woman I met at NBC telling me about this, what she said was not everyone

00:28:28.400 is as strong as you are. I don't know. I, I understood what she's trying to say, but I just,

00:28:33.360 my feeling is anyone can do it. You said that people might look at you and say, it's not that

00:28:39.600 easy. And my answer would be, you're right. It's not that easy. No one's saying it's going to be easy,

00:28:45.660 but I just think that the choice between going on offense or sitting back on defense,

00:28:52.380 I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you from my experience, being on offense is better.

00:29:00.240 Trying to move forward is better. Trying to go on the attack is better than, than sitting back and,

00:29:05.740 and staying put and allowing, allowing these horrible things to continue to attack you,

00:29:12.340 attack them, attack them.

00:29:14.420 Mm-hmm. I was talking to the audience not long ago about, I had two years off basically,

00:29:20.380 after I left NBC and started this job. And for a lot of that time, I refer to myself as like on the

00:29:25.720 couch. You know, I was upset for a while there. I was kind of depressed. I didn't know what the hell

00:29:30.600 just happened in my life. And my therapist who I love just sort of kind of was saying, get off the

00:29:37.140 couch, just get off the couch. Right. And ultimately I found the motivation to do it, but it just getting

00:29:43.180 off the couch is big, just standing up and get off the couch, go into forward movement, change the

00:29:50.100 routine. Wallowing is the wrong choice to wellness. Yep, absolutely. And there's, you know, I've,

00:29:59.840 I've written about this and I've talked about this when you go through, like I've gone through losing

00:30:05.880 very close friends of mine. And when you go through that, it's very scary because the initial

00:30:14.740 thing that I realized is you're, it's, it's like being in a storm. It's like getting hit with these

00:30:21.280 waves of emotions. And for me anyways, I pretty good control over my emotions. And all of a sudden I'm

00:30:29.340 in this storm where I can't control these waves of emotion. They're, they're bigger, they're stronger

00:30:33.420 than me and they're, they're hitting me and I can't stop them. And what I explain to people is

00:30:39.080 those, that storm is going to settle. And so when you initially get hit with these waves of emotion,

00:30:44.240 it's going to be horrible. You're going to feel like there's no control. You're going to feel like

00:30:47.100 you don't have control and you don't by the way, but over time, the, the storm, the waves, they start

00:30:53.540 to subside a little bit. And now you can, now they're not quite as strong when they hit you. They're,

00:30:58.160 they're, they're a little bit further apart. And eventually you, you get through these waves

00:31:03.700 of emotion and you can start to control them. And then people start to think, am I a bad person

00:31:07.760 because I'm no longer emotional about this loss? And the answer is no, it's just that your, your mind

00:31:13.140 is processing what you've gone through. And now you can start to, you can start to have control over

00:31:17.960 it and you can start to actually look back and, and take the good things away from, from the loss

00:31:24.400 that you've had. And, and I know that's again, back to what you said about how do you look at

00:31:29.600 something so horrible and how can you say that it's good? Well, if I lose one of my friends or

00:31:33.920 when I've lost my friends, once I get through those initial waves of emotions, I get to look back and

00:31:39.920 say, Hey, this is an individual that I got to know. This is an individual that I got to share all this

00:31:43.980 time with and laugh with and have good times with, and go through trials and tribulations with them.

00:31:48.760 And I have those forever. And, and those are, those were a gift to me. And even in their loss,

00:31:55.080 even in them dying, I get to take away from that. I get to learn more lessons. I get to,

00:32:01.320 I get to experience pain and sorrow so that I can remember how good the rest of the things in life

00:32:06.740 can be. So I think that attitude of, of taking a step back, but when you go through these horrible

00:32:14.880 situations, you're going to, you're good, there's going to be emotions. You're going to feel like

00:32:17.920 it's out of control. And when you feel like it's out of control, it's okay. The storm will subside.

00:32:23.360 And when the storm starts to subside, that's okay too. And that's when I think you have that

00:32:28.480 opportunity to look around and say, okay, what good can I take away from this? And, and you can

00:32:32.900 find it and you, you don't have to make it up. You don't have to lie to yourself. You can find it.

00:32:37.240 You can find it there. So I've, I've heard you talk about this in the context of breakups and also

00:32:42.800 to some extent dealing with death and the message. It's not your only message, but it's one of the

00:32:47.840 messages that stuck out in me, which is basically when it comes to a breakup, one must detach.

00:32:53.200 One must move on. One, one mustn't spend hours and hours and hours just thinking about it.

00:32:58.840 You have to find a way to emotionally detach. And ultimately when you're dealing with the loss of

00:33:03.600 somebody, a death, it is the same, you know, one must move forward. And as they say,

00:33:11.320 perhaps more tritely, life is for the living. And you've got to find a way to keep moving forward.

00:33:17.180 Forward motion is the key. Um, but you know, there'll be a lot of people listening to this

00:33:21.720 saying, how, how, how do I emotionally detach from someone who I loved, who left me, you know,

00:33:30.580 or, or, or who died? Like how on earth can I stop my brain from, from obsessing over this 24 seven?

00:33:37.780 Yeah. So I think what you have to do is you have to accept what's happening.

00:33:41.800 And you know, this is something I, you, you taught, you asked me about fear earlier.

00:33:45.860 And one of the things I would talk to guys about is when you get that, that,

00:33:50.880 that twisting gut, you starting to feel afraid about something is to think to yourself, Oh,

00:33:56.940 I know what that is. What that is, is fear. That's my body going, getting ready for a combat

00:34:03.340 situation. That's my body getting tuned, getting the adrenaline flowing. It's, it's all those

00:34:08.600 things. And it's actually, if you know what it is, if someone says, if you tell a new guy,

00:34:13.000 that's never been in combat before, Hey, listen, before you go out, your, your, your stomach's

00:34:16.960 going to be a knots. You're going to be, you're going to be, you might be actually shivering

00:34:20.200 because you're scared of what's about to happen. That's normal. It's okay. It's your body preparing

00:34:25.340 you to go into combat. So, so it's okay. And once people realize that you say, Oh, okay,

00:34:31.540 what I'm feeling is normal. What I'm feeling is normal. So when you go through a breakup or you

00:34:37.380 go through the loss of someone, that's what I, what I'm trying to say is those emotions that you

00:34:41.740 have, they're normal. It's going to happen. But once they start to subside a little bit, you say,

00:34:47.160 okay, now I've got to get control of these emotions. Cause I've got to move forward because to

00:34:51.000 get, you know, I say this about death as well. Remember, but don't dwell. So, so you remember,

00:34:57.300 you got to remember this person that you lost. You got to remember them always, but you don't

00:35:02.300 want to dwell in the past because that's not healthy. And yeah, I mean, I've, I've got some

00:35:08.020 things about breaking up and look, I've been married for, I've been married for a really long

00:35:12.620 time, I guess, uh, coming up on, I don't know, but a really long time, you know, since I was 25,

00:35:18.100 I'm 49. So it's 24 years, 24 years I've been married. And, and, and a lot of the, a lot of

00:35:24.480 the, the information that I put out about relationships and when relations goes wrong

00:35:29.300 and things like that is what I learned. Well, obviously from when I was a young single guy,

00:35:33.420 but then also when I was a leader in the seal teams and I'd have these guys between the ages

00:35:38.360 of 18 and 40 going through whatever trials and tribulations they're going through in their

00:35:43.740 relationships and saying, Hey, here's what you need to do. Here's the best way to move forward.

00:35:47.380 Because when you're in a leadership position, you're responsible for all aspects or you're

00:35:51.980 responsible for trying to take care of your troops and all aspects of your lives. And they're going

00:35:55.620 to come to you with these problems. So a lot of the experience that I have about challenging,

00:36:00.980 let's call them challenging relationships comes from, you know, just talking to a 23 year old seal

00:36:06.960 who's broken up with his girlfriend and he's in, she left and whatever happened and he's in the

00:36:11.960 dumps because of it. How do we move that guy forward? And so that's where a lot of the,

00:36:16.140 the, the, the kind of, I guess, relationship counselor information comes from real world

00:36:22.280 experience, dealing with guys that are going through these, these breakups.

00:36:26.380 This is why they call you the wise warrior. Now, how did, how does one do it though? Because I am a

00:36:32.660 big believer in cognitive behavioral therapy where it's like, okay, my mind keeps obsessing over this

00:36:37.740 thing. And the answer is to focus on this other thing. And I know this is bizarre, but it's always

00:36:43.220 work for me. I had a dog for 14 years, little cute dog. Her name was Basha and she had the

00:36:49.180 sweetest little face. And I used to, and now continue to think of Basha's face. And it's

00:36:56.000 basically just like, it's a click, you know, it's like a reset. It's just something to go to

00:37:00.500 when I'm like, Oh my God, my mind's starting to obsess over the thing that here's the thing

00:37:04.460 over and over and over in my head. Basha's face, Basha's face. It's just like a break to get you away

00:37:09.060 from the obsession. And before you know it, you're like, what am I going to have for lunch

00:37:11.980 today? What am I going to cook for dinner? Oh, wait a minute. I'm going to go for a walk. Oh,

00:37:14.880 I've got to pick up that prescription. Oh, I'm not thinking about the thing. So I like that as a,

00:37:19.320 as a way of breaking cycles of negative thinking or, or obsessive thinking, whether it's about a

00:37:25.840 breakup or a death or something awful. What, what do you recommend? It's an interesting thing that you

00:37:31.640 say that because when, uh, when I, when I lost my first guy in combat, Mark Lee was the first

00:37:37.620 killed in Iraq and he was just, uh, just, just, uh, just the most epic human and, you know,

00:37:45.540 seem to be totally indestructible in the way he behaved and the way he acted, just, just an

00:37:51.440 incredible guy. And when he died, obviously it crushed me and it crushed, you know, his platoon

00:38:00.000 mates and the rest of the guys in the task unit. And we, I didn't, I didn't, I was in the leadership

00:38:05.360 position. I had never been trained on what to do when you lose someone in combat. There was no one

00:38:10.080 in my chain of command that had ever lost anyone in combat because we had grown up, the guys in the

00:38:15.560 chain of command, like me had grown up in the, in the nineties. And so there was no wars going on in

00:38:20.260 the nineties and, and very little combat going on in the nineties. So there was no instructions that I

00:38:26.480 got about what to do, how to handle it. What's the emotional, what's the emotional toll going to be on

00:38:30.860 the troops. And, and what I actually told the guys was, look, we're going to take a couple of days

00:38:36.040 off. We're going to mourn Mark's loss. We're going to celebrate his life. And then we're going to go

00:38:42.360 back to work. We're going to lock and load our weapons. We're going to put our gear on and we're

00:38:45.500 going to go out and do our job. And, and much to what you're talking about, I thought to myself,

00:38:51.860 this is what we need to do to get our minds off of, off of thinking, thinking about Mark and

00:38:57.680 dwelling about Mark's loss, which is, which is a hard thing to do in combat. And, and certainly

00:39:02.340 I think it's the right thing to do. And, and then it's probably going to come back at you when you

00:39:06.660 get home three months or six months or nine months later, you get home and all of a sudden you, you

00:39:10.820 got some time to dwell and dive into that. But I think that you're right. That the, to distract your

00:39:18.960 mind a little bit when you, when you lose somebody is, is a good thing. The other thing, I mean,

00:39:24.280 as far as like a breakable, what I would tell these young guys when they were breaking up with girls

00:39:28.240 and, and, and I actually have three daughters now. So I've, I've run this routine a little bit on the,

00:39:33.060 on the other side as well. And what you've got to realize is that the person that you,

00:39:39.940 the person that you just lost this person that you built up in your head, they don't really exist.

00:39:44.800 They don't really exist. They're the dream that you have this ideal that you built, that's not the

00:39:49.420 person. And so you're obsessing over an ideal, you're obsessing over something that's not real.

00:39:53.280 So once you realize, Oh, this person was actually treating me bad. This person was actually,

00:39:58.840 actually said things that they shouldn't have said to me. This person wasn't this ideal that I built

00:40:03.880 up. So I, I didn't lose what I think I lost. I lost something much with much less value than I

00:40:11.100 thought. So I'll go out and look for something with more value. That's exactly right.

00:40:15.700 That would work for, what was it? Basha? No, Basha, Basha's face. No, but I love what you just

00:40:21.120 said, because I think about this all the time. I I've had sadly many friends who have had their

00:40:25.960 husbands cheat or their boyfriends cheat in like massive ways that are, that are really shocking.

00:40:32.600 And, you know, they'll, they'll cry a lot of tears saying, you know, I love him so much. And,

00:40:38.120 you know, we had this perfect marriage. And my response is always, but you didn't,

00:40:41.840 but he wasn't this great guy. You're, you're just now finding out, but you didn't have the

00:40:46.000 thing you thought you had. You didn't have for many, many years. It was gone a long time ago.

00:40:50.040 You're just coming to terms with it. Now you're just realizing the veil has come down. And yes,

00:40:54.080 there's sadness at, at what you thought you had at not having that thing, but you haven't had it for

00:40:59.520 a long, long time. And, and that's somehow soothing. I think, cause it's like, whatever I thought I

00:41:05.280 had, I lost years ago, or maybe I never had it to begin with, but my, my loss is not fresh. It's just the

00:41:09.740 information that is. Yep.

00:41:11.840 And I think that's a good attitude to have.

00:41:14.440 Can I ask you, is it freaking terrifying for your daughters to bring boyfriends home to you?

00:41:18.860 Well, when they were going through that phase and well, I've got one that's 21,

00:41:22.520 one that's just about 20 and I've got an 18 year old son and then an 11 year old daughter.

00:41:28.220 I would say that's probably uncomfortable for a young man to come to my house,

00:41:31.340 wanting to go out with my daughter. Yeah. I'd agree with that.

00:41:35.380 Do you ever like pull them aside for a talk?

00:41:38.840 Uh, yeah. Yeah.

00:41:40.320 Like a scary talk.

00:41:41.660 Certainly. I mean, you can probably, whatever you think I would say to someone that wants

00:41:46.520 to go out with my daughter is probably pretty close to what I would say.

00:41:52.640 Just walk them by your wall of metals, you know, you with your teammates, your comrades,

00:42:00.460 just let me give you a tour of the house. I thought you'd like to see where we live.

00:42:04.360 Yeah. Yeah. Say if you, you know, this is my daughter and, um, don't hurt her.

00:42:12.640 Has anyone ever had the nerve to do that?

00:42:15.280 No, no. Uh, very, very, very nice young men. Very respectful.

00:42:20.440 Oh, I can see why. Um, all right. So let's jump back. Let's jump back to the young you,

00:42:26.560 you go through, it's called buds training, basic underwater demolition seal training,

00:42:31.620 which is hideous from what I hear. I mean, maybe not for you, but everyone quits basically,

00:42:36.960 right? Like almost nobody makes it. Uh, it's like 80% of people quit and yeah, it was,

00:42:41.680 it was definitely fun. If your mindset is that it's going to be fun, it's fun. Believe it or not,

00:42:45.960 you're laughing a bunch. There's all kinds of crazy things happen. It's, it's a good time.

00:42:49.880 I had a good time. And I'm not saying it was easy. Some, sometimes I've had my seal buddies

00:42:54.580 say like, Oh, you made it sound like it was easy. It's not easy. No, it's, it's definitely

00:42:58.780 going to suck. It's hard. And you're going to get pushed and you're going to, no matter who you are,

00:43:04.860 there's your, there's going to be, there's going to be weakness revealed. There's no one that goes

00:43:09.320 through there that doesn't have any weakness revealed. Some people can't handle the water.

00:43:13.500 Some people can't handle the cold. Some people can't handle the being tired. Some people can't

00:43:17.820 handle the physical abuse. And by that, I just mean that your body is getting beat down every

00:43:23.000 single day. So in some, maybe some people can't hold their breath very well. So there's going to

00:43:28.360 be weakness. Everyone's going to have a weakness. It's going to get found out. It's going to get

00:43:31.480 exploited and it's going to get picked apart and you're either going to quit or you're going to suck

00:43:37.620 it up and make it through. So I'm not saying it's easy, but it's also to me, it's not, some people

00:43:43.540 make it out. Like it's this big transformational thing in their life. And I think a lot of people

00:43:49.040 show up there. They, they were going to have to kill me to make me quit. I never thought about

00:43:55.060 quitting in any way. And if they would have said, Hey, you got to die now. I'd have been said, cool,

00:43:58.640 let's, let's rock and roll. So I never thought about quitting. And I don't think it's, some people

00:44:05.800 make it out to be a bigger deal than it is. I'm not saying it's easy. It's definitely hard.

00:44:09.540 I, it wasn't easy for me. I'm like, I already told you, I'm not the fastest runner. I'm not

00:44:14.900 the fastest swimmer. I had to, let me, let me give you an example for every timed run that we did,

00:44:20.820 which I think you do at least one timed run a week, like a four mile timed run in soft sand with boots

00:44:27.380 on every one of those. I had to run as fast as I possibly could to pass. So then the swims were the

00:44:35.420 same way. Every one I did, I had to swim as hard as I possibly could. Like my life dependent,

00:44:39.520 on it to pass obstacle course, same thing. Just about everything there was, was a challenge for

00:44:45.400 me. So I'm not saying it's easy, but you suck it up. You're, you're cold, you're wet, you're

00:44:50.440 miserable and you have to work hard. It's not, it's not that crazy of a thing. Well, that's where you

00:44:55.420 drew your inside straight and just not being a quitter being raised. You just don't quit. That's

00:44:59.840 just, you just don't period. So it's like not even there for an option for somebody like you,

00:45:05.860 but for the rest of us mere mortals, it's there and it's lovely when you really need it. But wait,

00:45:11.420 can you just talk a little bit more about the physical? I think, you know, maybe people don't

00:45:17.120 know what, what I don't, I don't understand what the physical challenges are. Like what do they do

00:45:21.060 to you that during hell week? Oh, hell week. You don't get to sleep. You probably sleep an hour,

00:45:26.860 maybe two hours during the week. And you do a bunch of physical exercises the whole time,

00:45:31.100 carrying logs around, carrying boats around being, they put you in the water, which Southern

00:45:36.100 California water. I know from Baywatch, everyone thinks the water is probably 75 degrees or 80

00:45:41.200 degrees like a tropical island. It's not, it's 55 to 60 degrees. Most of the time it's cold. And so

00:45:47.900 they make you cold, wet, miserable, and tired and make you do a bunch of physical evolutions. And they

00:45:52.480 get a bunch of people to quit. And as far as what the actual exercises are, it's whatever dumb exercises

00:45:58.360 a person to do. You do pushups until you can't do any pushups anymore. And then you do squats until

00:46:02.980 you can't do squats anymore. And then you carry a log until you can't carry the log anymore.

00:46:06.160 And then they go back to pushups and they just do that over and over and over again

00:46:08.940 until they get, until they test people's, uh, test how people, how badly people want to be there.

00:46:15.100 So when you say quit though, does it mean I quit the Navy SEALs training? I'm out of

00:46:18.820 or is it like, I mean, cause you're, you have physical, physical limits, right? Like at some point

00:46:24.140 your arms stopped doing the pushups. Like, so failing or, or your body stopping at the task.

00:46:30.600 Is that considered quitting? Well, like, let's say with pushups, it's a good example. And pushups

00:46:35.880 are probably the, the one thing that you, Hey, if you can't do any more pushups, cool. Lay on the

00:46:40.760 ground, face down while you're getting somebody spraying you in the head with a hose from two feet

00:46:45.740 away. And in another 30 seconds, you can do one more pushup. So you can go a little bit further

00:46:50.040 carrying that boat. You may fall down and you lay there for a minute and you get back up and you

00:46:55.300 keep going. So I guess you're right. You obviously there's, you do a certain number of physical things.

00:47:02.060 How many pull-ups can you do at a point? You can't, you you're, you're no human. There's a

00:47:07.120 certain point where no human can do any more pull-ups. And what do you do? Then you drop off the bar,

00:47:11.680 you shake it out and then you try again and you keep trying. So that's, that's, that's the deal.

00:47:16.580 Don't quit. Keep trying. What if you don't run the four minute run in the sand with the boots on

00:47:22.900 fast enough? Like I'm sure there's a, there's a time by which they want you to do it. What if,

00:47:26.920 what if you don't? So when I went through and it always changes a little bit, it doesn't change a

00:47:32.320 lot. But when I went through, if you failed one run, you got written up. If you failed two runs,

00:47:38.520 you were gone. If you failed one swim, you were written up. If you failed two swims, you were gone.

00:47:43.060 If you failed one obstacle course, you were written up. If you failed two, you're gone.

00:47:46.240 So I failed one run and one swim and, and I never failed another one. Luckily. And the one that

00:47:52.920 actually, this is where I learned this. The one that I was, the one that I failed, the run that I

00:47:56.660 failed, I, I decided I was like, Oh, you know what? I'm going to pace myself today. So I went out,

00:48:03.700 didn't run as hard as I possibly could. And I failed. And from that day on, I said to myself, okay,

00:48:08.480 well, if you got to run, run as hard as you possibly can. That's the only way you're going to pass.

00:48:12.280 And that's what I did. Pass the rest of them. Oh my God. It's just like officer and a gentleman.

00:48:18.300 I saw the hose go into Richard Gere's face. I thought it was a made up Hollywood thing. I guess

00:48:22.480 it's real. Although that wasn't Navy seal and I am. And you didn't wind up with Deborah Winger at the

00:48:27.180 end. Um, I'm sure you did better than that. Um, so, so I did much better than Deborah Winger.

00:48:33.060 How long is the whole thing? The training? And then I assume hell week is just seven days.

00:48:38.200 Yeah. I think it's actually only five days. It starts Sunday night and then it ends on Friday.

00:48:43.220 And how long is buds training? Buds is six months. Okay. All right. Let me ask you a personal

00:48:49.000 question. Did you ever break down in tears? No. Were you ever close? No, no. You just got built that way.

00:48:58.440 You're like, you just, you have a mental toughness gene that you came into the world with. It sounds like

00:49:03.060 I don't actually remember too many. I think guys would occasionally break down for whatever reason,

00:49:08.360 but most guys, there's not a bunch of guys showing up there that are getting ready to cry

00:49:12.460 when something goes wrong. That's, that's not the seal that we're looking for.

00:49:18.300 Wait, I'm sure I should know the answer to this, but didn't I just see that

00:49:21.300 women are now able to be Navy seals. They weren't, but are they now?

00:49:24.960 Uh, the pipeline is open at this time. So they, so for, well, it used to be that,

00:49:32.140 that women were not allowed in combat roles. And then they changed that so that women are allowed

00:49:38.440 to combat roles, which means they can go into infantry battalion. They can, or an infantry

00:49:44.280 or any, any of the combat arms in the, in the army or the Marine Corps. And in the, in the Navy,

00:49:49.540 that would be, that would be the, uh, trying for the seal teams.

00:49:53.380 I mean, so I've got, I've got pretty defined feelings on this. I'm all for women giving it

00:50:00.140 a go. I think it's awesome if they want to try it, support them a hundred percent, but I'm definitely

00:50:04.020 not for lowering of standards, whether it's the, the firefighters, the cops, the military,

00:50:09.520 I think, you know, the standards are what they are, but I think in some instances that would

00:50:14.140 probably be unrealistic if you're talking about bench pressing a certain number. I mean, you know,

00:50:18.280 women are not physically as strong as men as a general rule. So what do you think the odds are

00:50:23.920 that a woman could make it through Bud's training? I don't think the odds are very good that a,

00:50:28.660 that a female could make it through. What do you think would do her in? I don't know what the number,

00:50:32.760 I don't, well, what it wouldn't be, you know, let's say you had a triathlete that could do really

00:50:39.080 well on the runs and the swims, but then probably not ready to do deadlifts and buddy carries and

00:50:45.280 log PTs carrying the logs around. And so I think, I think what, I think the problem will be

00:50:51.800 having the range of physical capability and look, there's, there's females obviously that are

00:51:00.920 incredible athletes and incredibly strong and, and everybody knows that, but I think just finding

00:51:06.360 that range will be the biggest challenge. Finding someone that's there's, there's females that are

00:51:10.460 very strong, you know, an Olympic lifter or a power lifter, incredibly strong. And there's

00:51:15.860 females that are incredibly fast. I think what will be challenging because it's challenging for guys

00:51:20.840 too, or it's challenging for, for men as well is, you know, if you've got someone that's a power

00:51:26.480 lifter, that's super strong, they have a hard time running fast. And, and if you have someone that's

00:51:32.120 super fast, they have a hard time carrying that boat on their head or lifting that log. So it's just

00:51:38.060 the range that I think is going to be the biggest challenge. I just don't think, I think people get

00:51:43.340 confused. Equality doesn't mean we have to be able to do the exact same jobs. Otherwise we don't have

00:51:48.300 equality. I have to be realistic about what our physical limitations are, what, what women are

00:51:53.240 better at than men and what we're not. I like to joke that I'm secretly a Marine because at my last

00:52:00.260 job, they sent me down to Camp Lejeune and I spent a few days with the Marines down there pretending

00:52:04.760 that I was training with them and I had to actually do a lot of what they were doing.

00:52:07.860 I was such a pathetic mess. You would have been horrified by me, Jocko. You would have been

00:52:11.200 horrified. I could not get over any of the walls. I couldn't climb on the ropes. I enjoyed the mess

00:52:17.180 hall. Um, but it was fun sleeping in the barracks and sort of, you know, trying to pretend that in

00:52:22.800 some other really, really tough version of myself, I could have done this. But one thing the guys did

00:52:27.400 tell me is women there at least have proven to be better shots than men. Um, their aim and their

00:52:35.300 ability to sort of control their breathing and their sort of focus and shooting had proven to be

00:52:40.020 very exceptional. So that's great, right? So that's something we could take advantage of and we

00:52:44.560 could, we could not force, but filter women into that kind of a role, but we don't need to pretend

00:52:50.480 that they can do the deadlift and carry a 240 pound man in order for them to be valuable to the military.

00:52:55.300 Yeah. And I just, you know, there's, there's men that are good shots. There's women that are good

00:52:59.900 shots. I just look at them as people. And if you can do the job, cool.

00:53:04.200 What about, can you imagine being deployed side by side with women and how, how do you think,

00:53:10.700 how is that? You know, I, I, I guess, you know, you weren't, you were with Navy SEALs,

00:53:15.060 but I'm sure you had other, other branches of the military that you were with and you saw women in

00:53:18.580 combat or did, did you?

00:53:20.420 Yeah, there's, there's definitely females around. I didn't have any females attached to any of the

00:53:25.000 units that I, that, that I was in charge of. Um, but you know, it's a, it's relationship stuff

00:53:31.880 that'll, that'll have to get worked out. Obviously there's a whole nother, a whole nother aspect

00:53:37.720 that comes into play when you're, when you put men and women together. I don't think there's any

00:53:42.560 question about that. So, you know, they do it on, do it in some, in some countries they've done it

00:53:49.300 and they do it. I mean, the Navy on Navy ships, there's, there's male and females co-located

00:53:54.180 and there's, you know, so, so we know kind of what, what, what that looks like.

00:53:59.820 I know it's fraught because you're, you know, the, the politically correct line is yes,

00:54:03.620 women can do it all. Women in combat is great. And women, you know, in the military is great.

00:54:08.180 Um, I think we can, we can accept that there's amazing opportunities for women and that we're

00:54:12.860 equality, that we have equality without diminishing the, some of the weird dynamics that come from,

00:54:19.300 from this change and the way we used to do it. And I think it's healthy. And I think that's the way

00:54:24.120 we get past them by being honest about what the oddities are and what the solutions are. You know,

00:54:29.900 the, the guys I talked to and the gals down at Camp Lejeune were like, once you're out there and

00:54:33.660 you're training, you know, you don't see gender, right? You just see like, who's on your team.

00:54:37.200 And that's what matters. But I've never actually been in battle. And the young, young ones I'd,

00:54:42.080 I'd spoken to down there hadn't either. It's a training camp. So as somebody who's actually been there,

00:54:46.680 but I guess you have men next to, next to women or working with women there. I wondered what your

00:54:50.440 thoughts were. Uh, no, I, I misspoke a little bit or I didn't make myself clear. So in my particular

00:54:57.500 units, in my SEAL platoon, I didn't have any women. There was no women allowed. My, when I was a SEAL

00:55:02.100 platoon commander in my task unit, there was no women attached to us. So I never, but there was,

00:55:07.160 there was female army around, there was female Marines around and I'd never had any issues with them.

00:55:14.760 Um, in fact, there's, there, there's some incredible warriors throughout history,

00:55:19.120 females that, that served and served incredibly and performed heroically in combat. So it is

00:55:26.740 possible. It is, it is, I mean, it's, it's, it has, it has happened. So, um, you know, whether it's

00:55:32.720 good or bad, I mean, I think it all boils down to what you already said. And I think this is kind

00:55:35.600 of, this has kind of become the, the, the answer is don't lower standards and see what happens.

00:55:44.760 And unfortunately, I think there is political pressure to try and force things to, to happen

00:55:50.940 a certain way. And if you do that, it's not going to be good.

00:55:55.020 No, I mean, you're talking about life and death stuff now. I mean, like there's a, there's a limit

00:55:59.320 to where wokeness can take over our lives. And when you're talking about the, the survival of men and

00:56:06.180 women who have volunteered to go save our country, protect our country on the field, on the foreign

00:56:10.200 battlefields, that's it. Like either you can do it or you can't. And women are strong enough to be

00:56:15.580 able to say that I can't do this. I can, I can kick ass over here. Can't quite do that thing.

00:56:20.960 And let's, let's work with that. You know, once again, people, I feel like these, like,

00:56:25.360 I don't know, PC jerks just treat us like we're little cupcakes and we can't understand that this

00:56:30.680 job you can't do because you're not strong enough. Um, we get it. And, and that doesn't mean we

00:56:35.320 don't have other great qualities. It's just bullshit. Anyway. Okay. Now, now I'm going to

00:56:38.920 rant. All right. So let's go back to your, your Navy career. You, you worked in the Navy. You were,

00:56:44.400 you were still for 13 years before you actually got deployed. Is that right? To, to, to serve in an

00:56:51.040 actual, an actual, uh, battlefield. Yeah. So I was in from 1990 until 2010 and between 1990 and 2003,

00:57:02.420 there was, I didn't go on any combat deployments and quite frankly, neither did too many other

00:57:08.360 people because there was no wars going on. And then in 2003 deployed to Iraq and, and that's where,

00:57:12.820 you know, I, I did my first combat operations. So you, you wind up in Ramadi and I, I was at Fox at

00:57:22.100 the time covering the war and that those were just the darkest days. I mean, and Ramadi was awful.

00:57:28.940 Um, and you were right there in the, in the middle of it. And over here, it, it seemed like

00:57:36.060 hell. And I read that you, well, no, you told Tim Ferriss Ramadi was the highlight of my life.

00:57:44.000 So walk me through that. How can that be? As I was talking to you earlier, and I said that

00:57:49.700 the only thing I ever wanted to do was be some kind of commando. And, and then that's what I did.

00:57:56.580 And when you're a commando, you have one purpose, you have one job and that is to go to war and you

00:58:03.840 want to, you want to do that. I mean, it's like, if you want a football team and you practiced all

00:58:10.060 the time and you never played a game, you'd really want to play that game. Well, now imagine that you

00:58:15.120 spent your whole life sort of preparing for this, for this game. And now the game shows up

00:58:22.280 and it's a hard game. It's a challenging game. The, the opponent is tough and, and you go,

00:58:28.280 you go to war. So that's why it was definitely the highlight of my life.

00:58:33.580 You finally got to do the very thing you were trained to do and were amazing at

00:58:38.460 coming up in one second. I'm going to ask Jaco about some of the most heroic, decorated,

00:58:47.580 inspirational Navy SEALs that have ever lived that he knows and knew and work directly with.

00:58:56.380 You're going to want to hear this. I promise you that. But before we get to that,

00:59:00.220 want to bring you a feature we call, you can't say that here on the Megan Kelly show.

00:59:04.520 You can't say that or think that or do that. Oh, wait, this is America.

00:59:09.660 Well, we all know that you can get canceled for writing certain books,

00:59:12.120 but did you know that you can be canceled for liking certain books? You can, especially if it's

00:59:19.040 a dangerous book who decides what dangerous is people with whom you do not disagree. You do not

00:59:24.700 agree. I can guarantee you that. So do you like the band Mumford and Sons? We talked about this the

00:59:29.040 other day. Well, one of the members of the group, Winston Marshall had the nerve to tweet some praise

00:59:35.420 for Andy knows book on mask. You remember Andy, we had him on the program to talk about his book on

00:59:40.520 Antifa. You remember he was talking about their riots and how nobody was cracking down on them

00:59:45.460 and their disgusting methods of attacking people. Well, apparently Marshall really liked the book

00:59:50.640 and he tweeted out, quote, finally had the time to read your important book. You're a brave man to

00:59:56.040 Andy, who of course got attacked by Antifa and had a brain bleed as a result of it and kept on

01:00:01.460 reporting. But Marshall's praise for Andy know unacceptable. After backlash, Marshall had to delete the

01:00:09.400 tweet and apologize. Quote, over the past few days, I have come to better understand the pain caused

01:00:16.580 by the book I endorsed. He tweeted, he'll now quote, take time away from the band to examine my blind spots.

01:00:24.340 Does everyone feel better now? Because if you liked a well-researched fact-based book about Antifa,

01:00:31.700 which is at the top of the charts right now, notwithstanding some stores attempt to suppress it.

01:00:35.920 Well, you can't say that. Oh, wait, this is America. And now back to Jocko right after this.

01:00:48.900 You ran what is called, I guess, Task Unit Bruiser, the most highly decorated special ops unit of the

01:00:54.720 Iraq war. And when it says that you were the commander of that, does that mean you were the

01:00:59.260 ultimate authority, the ultimate person in charge? I was the, I was the senior guy. Yes, I was the,

01:01:04.160 it sounds really strong to say I was the ultimate authority because, you know, there's people above

01:01:10.660 me in the chain of command, obviously, but yeah, I was the senior guy. So I was the, I was the senior

01:01:14.560 ranking guy in Task Unit Bruiser, which ultimately means if something went wrong, it was on me.

01:01:20.340 And yeah, we, so we had usually between 30, around 35, sometimes a little bit more, sometimes a little

01:01:28.580 bit less 35 or so seals, depending, we got augments. Some guys would come to help for a little while,

01:01:33.240 then they leave. Some guys get wounded, go home. Obviously guys got killed as well. And, but, you know,

01:01:39.620 so around 35 seals and then another 60 or 70 people that were in support of the Task Unit.

01:01:47.240 And these are all the kind of unsung heroes, the people that are keeping our Humvees running and

01:01:52.700 keeping our generators working and keeping our logistical supply chain going. So guys have bullets

01:01:57.800 and food and, and all that stuff. And the people that gather the intelligence and put together target

01:02:02.480 packages for us. So there's a bunch of other guys that supported the, the, the seals, but,

01:02:07.640 and that's what we had. The unit that you oversaw, the one, this Task Unit Bruiser seems to have had

01:02:14.640 some of the most talented, impressive seals who fought for our country in the Iraq war.

01:02:21.320 You mentioned Mark Lee. Michael Monser was another one. You mentioned Johnny Kim and the name that

01:02:28.040 stood out to me. There were, there were two of them. Chris Kyle, who we now know as the American

01:02:32.100 sniper. He wrote his book and said to be the most lethal sniper in American history. And his work,

01:02:36.560 his wife, Taya actually wound up taking a job as a contributor at Fox for a short time while I was

01:02:41.380 there. There's another guy I want to talk to you about who I know you knew very well, Ryan Jobe.

01:02:48.340 Before we get to Ryan, can we talk about Chris? Because I think our audience may know that name,

01:02:52.420 you know, from the movie American Sniper and he, he worked under your command.

01:02:56.440 Yeah. Chris was the lead sniper and the point man for Charlie Platoon. So inside of Task Unit Bruiser,

01:03:04.440 there's two platoons, Charlie Platoon and Delta Platoon and Charlie Platoon. The platoon commander

01:03:09.800 was Leif Babin, your, your friend, Jenna's husband. And then the lead sniper and the point man

01:03:15.680 in that platoon was, was Chris Kyle.

01:03:18.580 Yeah. Did you know that this was a special serviceman? Like when you were working with

01:03:25.140 him, did you know how good he was? Yeah. I mean, there, you know, when you said that there's

01:03:30.840 all these incredible guys in the, in the, in the task unit, you're right. And I will tell you that

01:03:37.520 all day long, the guys were incredible, Chris. Absolutely. And a lot of times, if you asked a bunch

01:03:43.920 of different people who in their, whatever task unit, whatever platoon, whatever troop they were

01:03:49.140 in, they're going to tell you that they had a bunch of awesome guys too. The SEAL teams has a bunch of

01:03:53.300 really incredible humans in there. Chris absolutely was a, was a, was an absolute professional. He was

01:04:00.740 a front runner and he had a lot of experience even coming into Ramadi. He had done the pushup. He had

01:04:07.160 fought in Fallujah. And so as a sniper, he was highly experienced and he was just, he was just

01:04:14.100 really dedicated to his job and it made him. And then the environment that we were in the operations

01:04:22.360 that we had the opportunity to do were, they were absolutely almost custom made to fit Chris's

01:04:30.780 skillset. And so it was just, it was just a perfect fit, perfect fit for him.

01:04:37.160 Ryan Jobe. I met years ago. I was at, um, a Navy SEAL benefit. It was probably, I want to say 2007.

01:04:48.600 Uh, and at this benefit was when my friend and colleague Jenna Lee met Leif Babin. They met that

01:04:55.060 night and now they're happily married with three kids. And one of the other guys I met that night

01:05:00.700 was Ryan Jobe. And I never forgot him. He's somebody I've talked about many, many times because

01:05:09.160 by this point he'd been injured. He, um, his, his weapon was hit by artillery from the enemy and it

01:05:17.020 blinded him. It shot, as I understand it, one eye out and permanently damaged the optic nerve and the

01:05:22.180 other eye. So he was blind. Um, and he had the most positive, infectious, lovable, laughing, joyful

01:05:33.720 personality that night. I gravitated toward him. So did everyone in the room. He was totally generous

01:05:42.200 with his personality, with his story, with, with his storytelling, with his time.

01:05:46.380 Um, and he was the one who told me that SEALs have a thing they say, which is say, I can't.

01:05:56.280 And of course it, you know, it means as soon as you tell them they can't, they will. And he was

01:06:01.100 living it right at that point. I mean, he was just living it because after his injuries, he went on to

01:06:06.140 accomplish incredible things. He climbed Mount Rainier, like in Washington state, he as, as a blind man.

01:06:12.960 And so all these years I've been talking about this guy, cause he made such an impression on me

01:06:18.660 and Jocko, I was so sad and shocked to find out he died. I didn't know that, that I missed that news.

01:06:30.000 And it happened only a couple of years after I met him and it happened in a hospital as they were

01:06:37.280 performing, I think his 22nd surgery. Anyway, when I saw it, I, I texted Jenna immediately like,

01:06:44.640 Oh my God, I didn't know. And we were talking about it. And I found out that they named their

01:06:49.540 third child after, after him, after Ryan. And I just wanted to ask you about this guy because

01:06:56.300 to me, he was just the embodiment of grit. And he's what I think of when I feel American patriotism,

01:07:07.120 that guy just devastated to learn. We lost him so long ago. And I'm sure it must've been so hard for

01:07:15.740 you. Yeah. Well, the, the impact that, that, that Ryan made on you, the impact that Chris made on the

01:07:21.840 world, the impact that Mikey Monsoor, the, that impression that Ryan left you, you know, that you

01:07:30.240 were with him for, I don't know, a few hours at an event and, and you saw the, just, well, just what

01:07:36.980 an incredible person he was. And yeah, he was, he was actually shot in the face. It was some, some,

01:07:44.400 maybe a, maybe an enemy sniper shot his, and it luckily hit his weapon and before it entered his

01:07:51.260 face, so that slowed down and he kind of got hit from pieces of fragmentation from his weapon and

01:07:56.540 chunks of bullet and whatever else. And it was a really grievous wound. And yeah, it was, is his

01:08:06.240 attitude. If you know, his attitude was when he was in a medically induced coma for a while. And

01:08:14.520 that was the same day that, that Mark Lee was killed. And I, I probably, I don't know how long

01:08:22.100 it was after he got out of his medically induced coma and we could finally talk to him. He was back

01:08:27.340 in America. And what he was telling me, what he was asking me was, he was saying, he was saying,

01:08:36.200 sir, can I please come back? Can I please come back? He wanted to come back and be with the task unit.

01:08:42.160 He wanted to come back and be with his brothers, despite the fact that he had been so horribly

01:08:47.100 wounded, despite the fact that he couldn't see, he, he actually, as you know, he was a very funny

01:08:52.520 guy too. He said, if you give me my weapon, sir, don't worry. I can smell the bad guys. I can smell

01:08:58.000 them. I'll know where they are. And that was, that was his attitude. He wasn't going to stop

01:09:02.160 and he wasn't going to quit. And he wanted it. He wanted to be with his brothers. And so,

01:09:06.840 yeah, when, when, when he, when he died, it was just a crushing, crushing blow because we had,

01:09:14.240 you know, we had been home for a few years and we had, we had lost Mikey, we had lost Mark and,

01:09:21.780 and, and that was horrible, but we thought we were home, you know, we thought we were home

01:09:27.160 and, and then we lose, and then we lose Ryan. And then, as you mentioned, after that, again,

01:09:35.940 now we think, well, nothing, nothing worse than this can happen. And then, and then Chris,

01:09:42.040 Chris was murdered and just another horrible, just another horrible, shocking and, and life,

01:09:52.040 life altering event, you know, to, to have, to have Chris killed like that. And, you know, his,

01:10:00.840 his wife is just so strong and, and what she's been through and the way she carries herself is,

01:10:08.040 is just heroic. So a good example for, for all of us. And, you know, then, and then there's,

01:10:17.120 there's actually in 2017, you know, again, thinking that we were through it, the, the Delta

01:10:24.480 platoon commander, who was a very dear friends of mine and, and life and the rest of the guys in

01:10:30.820 the task unit, he was killed in a, in a parachute accident. And, and that's the, the last guy that

01:10:36.740 we've lost from task unit bruiser, even though it's many, well, it was 11 years after we came home

01:10:42.340 and, and, and still, um, never, never going to be never going to forget those guys.

01:10:49.500 They were just all incredible, incredible people. And it was an honor to be able to serve with them

01:10:55.800 an honor to be able to know them an honor to say that I was friends with them and I won't forget

01:11:00.800 them all ever. God bless them. And all of you guys, I, we forget too often we go on with our lives

01:11:10.220 over here and we forget about the sacrifice that's been made so that we can live them the way we do.

01:11:15.880 It's important to be reminded of these stories. So we understand the sacrifices that have been made

01:11:21.480 that I I've listened to Leif. I saw, I saw, um, the two of you guys talking about this.

01:11:29.000 And he was saying that after Ryan got hit in the face with this enemy sniper round,

01:11:38.460 Leif was saying he looked horrific and he, he went over to grab Ryan and Ryan sat up and said,

01:11:43.780 he was okay. He sat up, even though he'd just been shot in the face, sat up so that he wouldn't choke

01:11:48.340 said, he was just incredibly tough. And, you know, as you point out shortly after he began to

01:11:56.060 be able to speak again, he was cracking jokes. Leif was saying he was going to get a parrot for

01:12:02.120 his shoulder. And then he's asking, he's telling you, I can smell the enemy that I'll find a way,

01:12:07.000 you know, I'll find a way. Can I come back? And I just think it's such a bullshit price to pay.

01:12:13.580 You know, it's like what I read was that because the hospital paid his widow, I think what I read was

01:12:18.600 $4 million. They admitted that they had been negligent. It was what I read was it was an accidental

01:12:24.860 overdose that they gave him of painkillers. But it just seems so damn senseless, you know? And it's

01:12:31.360 like, when you talk about how you get past loss, you know, what you speak. Yeah. It was just like

01:12:39.140 you said, it was, it was completely tragic and you know, it's, it makes us, reminds us how precious

01:12:47.660 life is. And you need to, you need to absolutely live a life that, that these guys that are looking

01:12:55.980 down on us are nodding their head and saying, that's, that's right. Keep going. Yeah. They

01:13:01.140 don't want anybody wallowing. You know, one of the other guys I met that night and I don't know if you

01:13:06.180 know him. I don't, I don't think he was in your, in task unit bruiser. Jason Redman. Do you know that

01:13:12.620 name? Yeah, I do. You know, Jason. Okay. I know he was actually inspired to go climb Mount Rainier

01:13:19.780 because of what Ryan, because Ryan did it, but he too had a catastrophic injury to his face.

01:13:27.280 And he's the other guy I remember from that night. And, but trust me, my audience knows my,

01:13:31.220 my memory is not that good, but I remember these guys well, because he told me about his recovery

01:13:37.180 story and how he posted a sign on his door that basically said, don't come in here and feel sorry

01:13:43.700 for me. I would go and do it all over again. And I remembered that story. And actually I just did,

01:13:50.900 I Googled it right before you came on and I found out like the sign became a thing. Like it's in,

01:13:57.620 it's in a military museum as something that's like celebrated as sort of an example of, of the

01:14:04.020 mentality. And I just, I just want to read the note. So people understand this guy. It reads as

01:14:09.020 follows. Attention to all who enter here. If you are coming into this room with sorrow or to feel sorry

01:14:15.800 for my wounds, go elsewhere. The wounds I received, I got in a job. I love doing it for people. I love

01:14:23.520 supporting the freedom of a country. I deeply love. I am incredibly tough and will make a full recovery.

01:14:30.080 What is full? That is the absolute utmost physically. My body has the ability to recover.

01:14:36.980 Then I will push that about 20% further through sheer mental tenacity. This room you are about

01:14:43.340 to enter is a room of fun, optimism, and intense, rapid regrowth. If you are not prepared for that,

01:14:51.860 go elsewhere from the management.

01:14:54.960 I love that, Jaco. I love that. And that, that's the attitude, right? Like that's the thing

01:15:02.960 that makes you fall in love with these guys.

01:15:05.700 A hundred percent. I mean, that's just a, it's such a, such an awesome statement by,

01:15:10.600 by Jason Redman. And, and, you know, this is a guy that was, had massive, massive damage to his face

01:15:17.300 and his arm. He was going through surgery after surgery, after surgery. And he, well, you heard

01:15:24.520 it. He did not want, he didn't feel sorry for himself. He didn't want anyone else to feel sorry

01:15:28.480 for him. He was going to do everything he could with what he had left. And, and that's what he's

01:15:34.760 doing today.

01:15:36.160 Wow. This is to your earlier point. These are the stories people need to hear. People who think

01:15:42.160 words are violence. People who think they're, they've been victimized by some TV commercial,

01:15:48.960 what, you know, that there are real heroes in this world who have really gotten hurt and sacrificed

01:15:54.440 and found a way to stay optimism about our country, about themselves, about their fellow Americans.

01:16:01.600 There's a way of doing it. It's not to diminish hurt or pain, but there's a way of doing it. And we

01:16:08.460 have real life examples, um, everywhere. You're right. If you just open-minded to him and that's

01:16:13.520 in a way, one of the gifts you've been given Jocko is like having a life immersed in this kind

01:16:20.480 of person.

01:16:21.900 Yeah. And it's great. We can look at the military and find all kinds of heroes for sure. For, for,

01:16:28.440 for the entire history of this country, there's hero after hero that has stepped up and made

01:16:33.240 incredible sacrifices. And, and then you look at everyday people, whether it's a single mom,

01:16:38.200 that's out there working two or three different jobs to, to feed her kids and coming home with the

01:16:42.920 screaming kids and all that stuff, or whether it's, you know, the, the frontline police officers that

01:16:48.500 are out there taking risk every single day, firefighters, EMTs, the, the, the, the heroes of

01:16:54.420 the, of the medical community, the first responders. There's so many people that do so much and face

01:17:00.320 such tough, challenging, uh, events every single day. I was talking to a friend of mine who's, who's,

01:17:08.640 um, uh, EMT firefighter. And he's, he had done two, two cases that day and he had done CPR on two

01:17:17.720 people, saved one, lost one. And you just think that's, that's daily occurrence, daily occurrence.

01:17:24.260 So all kinds of heroes out there, all kinds of people that face some really tough things

01:17:29.920 on a daily basis. And it definitely keeps me humble and, and makes, makes me make sure that

01:17:39.340 I'm not complaining about anything. Well, since you've gotten back Stateside, you've, you've sort

01:17:45.960 of made a career out of leadership. You and Leif, uh, co-founded a group called the Echelon Front,

01:17:50.700 which is a leadership consulting company, Premier. And it teaches some of these leadership principles

01:17:55.700 to others. And we need that, right? It's like some people are born leaders. I think so. They come by

01:18:00.660 these traits naturally and most people have to learn it, or at least need to learn something to

01:18:05.500 get better at it. In looking at sort of the, the things you say that make a good leader, uh, one of

01:18:13.600 the things is extreme ownership. You gave a great Ted talk, TEDx, extreme ownership, uh, on this

01:18:20.400 mindset of not making excuses, not, not blaming others when problems occur. I, my own life, it's

01:18:26.440 manifested as winners take responsibility, losers blame others. And can you just talk a bit about

01:18:33.300 that? The episode, I think it was in Ramadi that really brought that home for you where you had to

01:18:39.160 live it and it wasn't necessarily the easiest experience, but you did live it. Yeah. That's, uh,

01:18:44.840 we, one of the earliest operations that we did in the battle of Ramadi, we had, uh, a blue on blue

01:18:51.700 or what's commonly referred to in the civilian world as a friendly fire incident. And it was

01:18:55.980 actually a firefight between some of my seals and an Iraqi, a friendly Iraqi army unit. So there's

01:19:04.620 friendly Iraqis that are on our side. And some of my guys, there was confusion out on the battlefield.

01:19:09.540 There was mayhem. There was the fog of war, all those things. And some of my guys ended up in a

01:19:16.060 firefight with friendly Iraqi soldiers who had a U S Marine with them and is a nightmare. One of the

01:19:22.860 Iraqi soldiers got killed. A couple other ones got wounded. One of my guys got wounded and it was only

01:19:28.640 by the grace of God that, that none of my guys were killed. It was just an absolute nightmare.

01:19:33.480 And look, being in combat and taking casualties from the enemy is horrible. You can only imagine

01:19:40.000 how much horrible it is when it's friendly fire. It's your own people that you're getting wounded

01:19:46.440 by or that you're wounding or that you're getting killed by, or that you're killing. It's a, it's an

01:19:50.660 absolute nightmare. And after this happened, there was, you know, there was a big uproar because this

01:19:58.580 shouldn't happen. You shouldn't have these things that they do take place, but it's, it's, it's,

01:20:02.840 it should not happen. And it happened. So my commanding officer basically shut down, shut

01:20:10.000 down, tasking a bruiser and said, I'm going to come out. I want to debrief. I want to find out

01:20:13.720 what happened. And really in that it's, it's, who's going to get fired because this is a terrible

01:20:21.760 situation. Someone needs to, someone needs to be held accountable. And so he said, told me to

01:20:27.720 prepare a briefing to him. So I started preparing this briefing. And as I'm preparing this briefing,

01:20:33.660 I'm trying to figure out who I should blame for this happening. Should I blame the radio

01:20:38.100 man? Should I blame one of the assistant toon commanders that are out there? Should I blame

01:20:41.640 one of the NCOs? One of my, one of my non-commissioned officers, who should I blame for this

01:20:47.220 happening? And it was probably 10 minutes. He had, he had flown out. So it took him a day to get out

01:20:53.900 there. And it's probably 10 minutes before I walked in to debrief him. And I, I just couldn't,

01:21:01.500 I, I couldn't put my finger. I couldn't feel comfortable picking the person to blame. And I

01:21:09.060 just was trying to figure, is it this guy? Should I blame this guy? Should I blame this other guy?

01:21:11.840 And as I'm sitting there, I realized like a bolt of lightning hit me that the reason I couldn't

01:21:19.220 figure out who to blame was because there was only one person to blame. And that person was me. I'm,

01:21:24.920 I'm the overall guy in charge. I'm responsible for what happens. Whatever happens is on me. And so I

01:21:32.100 went in there and, and, and took ownership of the entire incident. And, and, you know, this is not the

01:21:39.400 first time that I ever had this idea. This is how I was brought up in the SEAL teams. And, and really,

01:21:44.060 this is how I was brought up as a, as a human. When something goes wrong, you don't blame other

01:21:48.160 people. You take ownership. The reason that it, the reason that we, when Latham and I wrote this

01:21:52.460 book, we made this the first chapters, because this is the most extreme situation I'd ever been in.

01:21:57.460 Someone was dead, guys were wounded, and I had to take ownership of it. And, and the part that you said

01:22:04.380 about it being hard to take ownership. Yeah. It's very hard. It stings. It hurts. It hurts your

01:22:09.300 ego. It makes you feel like you are to blame for everything. And guess what? You are, that's the

01:22:15.040 point. And it's hard, but that's what I did. I stepped up, I took ownership. And, you know,

01:22:20.480 when I did that, first of all, the guys in the platoon, and this is, you know, Leif and Seth and

01:22:27.000 the rest of the guys debriefing me. When I said, Hey, this is my fault. They're, they, their level of

01:22:31.840 respect for me went up because I wasn't pointing my finger at anyone and saying it was their fault.

01:22:35.240 And even my commanding officer, he realized that if I was going to take ownership of the problems,

01:22:40.440 I would get the problems fixed and they wouldn't happen again. And so this attitude is just a very

01:22:45.840 powerful thing. And sometimes people think it's going to be a big burden. And like I said,

01:22:49.080 it is a burden on your ego, but also it's liberating because if you take ownership of the problems,

01:22:56.040 then you have the capability to solve those problems. So it applies not just to the battlefield.

01:23:01.780 It applies, not just to business. It applies to life. And if there's something that's not going

01:23:05.640 the way you want it to go, and all you do is point your finger at your boss or your spouse or your kids

01:23:10.140 or someone you work with, well, then you don't change anything because it's out of your power.

01:23:14.420 But if you say, you know what, I'm going to take ownership of this and I'm going to get it solved.

01:23:17.320 Now you have control and now you can, now you can actually get problem solved.

01:23:22.960 I think some people don't, don't take ownership because they're afraid it might not be their only

01:23:27.500 mistake, you know, and they, if you take ownership of this one, what happens when the next big mistake

01:23:33.600 comes along, you take ownership of that one. And then the third, and then before you know it,

01:23:37.460 you're fired.

01:23:38.700 Yeah. Well, you very well might get fired. And when people present me with that, with that

01:23:43.840 situation, you know, I always say, well, let's say, let's say, let's say Megan and I are working

01:23:50.320 for the boss. And we both fail at whatever project was due. And I come in and the boss

01:23:57.340 says, what happened, Jocko? And I said, well, you know, we failed the project because we didn't

01:24:01.420 get the supplies in time. We had bad weather and the contractors didn't do what they were

01:24:05.860 supposed to do. And so that's why we failed. And he says, okay, get out of here. And then Megan

01:24:11.100 comes in and, and the boss says, okay, Megan, why'd you fail that project? And Megan says, well,

01:24:16.040 we failed the project because I didn't order the supplies early enough. So the supplies didn't

01:24:21.180 show up on time. I actually didn't track what the contractors were doing closely enough. And so

01:24:26.060 they were off schedule and that, that set us back. And finally, I didn't account for the possibility

01:24:31.700 that there might be bad weather. When I do this next time, I'm going to make sure I get some time

01:24:35.540 scheduled in there in case we get some bad weather days, I'll be able to make up that time.

01:24:38.960 So those are the problems. That's why we failed. It's my fault and I'll get it fixed next time.

01:24:43.720 So, so who, who do you want to give the next project? Who's the boss going to give the next

01:24:48.040 project to? Is the boss going to give it to me who made a bunch of excuses and pointed my finger

01:24:51.960 to a bunch of other people or they, or is the boss going to give the project, the next project to

01:24:56.000 Megan who actually took ownership and is actually going to get those problems solved. So when you

01:25:01.160 look at it from that perspective, even though you might be scared to walk into that office,

01:25:04.100 ready to take the blame, when you actually do it and you actually think about how it's perceived,

01:25:09.580 by the way, up and down the chain of command, up and down the chain of command,

01:25:13.180 because the contractors that I blamed, they don't want to work with me anymore. They're not going to

01:25:16.960 put extra effort to, to, to cover for me, but the contractors that work for you that you said,

01:25:23.720 Hey, look, we're late. It's my fault. I should have, I should have given you guys a tighter

01:25:26.760 timeline. I should have, I should have made sure you were tracking. They actually want to do a good

01:25:30.020 job for you. So up and down the chain of command, taking ownership is the way to go.

01:25:35.520 Yeah. Yeah. This is, this reminds me of an experience I had at Fox news very early in my career.

01:25:41.100 I was a first year reporter there, very green. And I had a package airing on Brit Hume show,

01:25:47.880 special report that night. It was one of my first packages where it's like a pre-taped piece.

01:25:52.500 You know, you spend the whole day working on it, getting interviews, then you write a script,

01:25:56.140 then you track the script, then you go into the edit bay and work with the editor to get it just

01:26:00.140 right. And then it airs. And there's always time pressure. And, um, it aired that night and there was

01:26:05.440 a mistake in the piece. There was, it was a soundbite that shouldn't have been in there.

01:26:08.380 And it was obvious when it aired and I should have caught it. And so Kim Hume, who is Brit's wife

01:26:13.340 and our managing editor, or she was our, our bureau chief came over to me after the fact and said,

01:26:18.180 um, how could it have been prevented? And I said, I told the editor to take it out and he should have

01:26:24.460 taken it out. And she said, not him, you, what could you have done to prevent it? And honestly,

01:26:32.860 it was just like a sea change for me in that moment. I ever since then, that's my first question,

01:26:37.300 not him, you, what could you have done to prevent it? And she was a hundred percent right. I could

01:26:42.000 have budgeted my time better. I could have make sure I sat in that edit bay for the entire process.

01:26:46.620 I could have made time to review the piece prior to it hitting air. So I could be assured that all

01:26:53.100 the soundbites would be appropriate and one wouldn't be in there that shouldn't be. And, you know,

01:26:57.540 I'm not saying I have a perfect record from that point thereafter, but I certainly did a hell of a lot

01:27:01.620 better than I would have if somebody hadn't remembered to say to me, not him, you a hundred

01:27:08.440 percent. That's it. And it changes your attitude and the people that work with you above you below

01:27:14.720 you, they will all have a better respect. You'll have a better relationship. And that's just the

01:27:19.980 best way for a team to operate. Everyone taking ownership. What do you think? Cause I know you,

01:27:26.760 I love your, your latest book is called the code, the evaluation, the protocols, and this is good.

01:27:31.760 It's a code for how to tackle life. Just here's a few, just for our audience. I will take care of

01:27:36.060 my physical health. I'm short forming. Uh, I will develop myself mentally by doing creative things,

01:27:41.620 reading things that develop me mentally. I will not waste time. I will not waste money. I will set

01:27:46.580 goals. That's an important one. I will excel in my job. I will be humble. I will control my emotions.

01:27:52.320 I will put others before myself. I will take care of and protect my friends and family. And I was

01:27:57.920 looking at that and thinking about the goal setting. Cause I do think that's an important

01:28:03.260 part of succeeding in life of yes, being a leader, but also just succeeding in life. Sometimes we

01:28:08.240 meander. Sometimes we don't sit down and say, what next for me? What do I want? Like oftentimes we

01:28:14.960 sit back and say, I'm not happy. I don't feel good, but we don't say what would make me happy? And how

01:28:20.860 can I, how can I get there? So when you talk about setting goals, like, what does that look like?

01:28:25.860 Somebody listening to this right now, like write it down, say it out loud, put it on like a vision

01:28:30.880 board. What is it? What does it look like? I say you write it down. And, and for me, look, I have

01:28:36.680 things that I'm doing all the time that I, one of my, I guess it's a trick or a methodology that I use

01:28:45.440 is I sign up for things that I know are going to be very hard to achieve, but I, but I, but I sign

01:28:51.920 up for them. So whether that's publishing a book. So by the time I have a book coming out,

01:28:57.280 I already have signed to write another book. And I know that I'm not saying, Oh, I'm going to take

01:29:02.280 a break. I could use a little downtime. Would be nice. No, I know. I know. I have another book in

01:29:07.460 me. I know already know what it is. So I go talk to the publisher and say, yep, here's what I'm doing

01:29:12.280 next. And they say, okay, here's the date. Can you get it in by then? And I say, yes, I can.

01:29:17.640 Uh, so you, you know, I like to, I like to take on things that are going to be hard for my podcast.

01:29:22.600 My podcast takes a lot of time to put together and I, I release one every single week. And sometimes

01:29:29.940 it's sometimes that means Saturday. So in fact, most times it means Friday, Saturday, Sunday,

01:29:36.120 I'm working, I'm reading, I'm preparing for the podcast because during the week I'm working with

01:29:40.560 clients, et cetera. And so, but I sign up for it and I get it done. So that's what I do. I like to

01:29:47.560 sign up for things and, and things that are a little bit uncomfortable. I like to, I like to

01:29:52.420 bite off a little bit more than I can chew and, and hope that I don't choke on it. And I usually

01:29:57.000 don't because I will grind until I get that, that project or projects done. Do you ever cancel last

01:30:04.660 minute? No, no. Uh, and you know, I've, I've written a bunch of books and I've, I've turned

01:30:13.040 them in on deadline every single time. I remember one time my, uh, my, I was, I said, Hey, I'm going

01:30:18.120 to be tight on this book, but I'll have it to you by midnight. And my, my publisher, I think it was

01:30:23.160 my third book. And he said, Hey, you can get it to me tomorrow. Most people are two or three months

01:30:29.680 late. And I said, really? And he said, yeah. And I said, well, I'm not going to get it to you by

01:30:33.120 midnight. So it's, uh, I, I, I think those schedules, I try and deliver. Well, it's a

01:30:39.140 self-discipline that I think most of us lack. I mean, you're extremely self-disciplined. That's

01:30:43.800 very clear and listening to you and looking at your life story. And I'm sure that's what led to

01:30:47.640 your success as a seal, but I, I don't know, is it hard to maintain that in the civilian world or

01:30:53.640 that's just part of you? Cause I know you get up every morning, you work out, you're big on,

01:30:57.820 you know, physical wellbeing. You're like, I don't know. Are you ever the guy who's like,

01:31:02.900 I don't want to go to that dinner. Tell him we're doing something else. Like he just phones it in at

01:31:06.580 the end. Cause he just overcommitted or, you know what I'm saying? Like, are you ever that guy?

01:31:11.020 I really don't make a lot of social commitments. I don't go to dinner at people's houses. I don't,

01:31:17.740 I mean, generally I might do that once a quarter. I'll go to dinner at someone's house because quite

01:31:23.780 frankly, I'd rather, you know, hang out with my wife, grab some dinner with her, hang out with

01:31:28.240 my kids and do stuff like that. So I don't, I don't have a lot of social commitments out there

01:31:33.180 in the world, I guess. Doesn't she, doesn't she make you have them? Usually it's the wife saying

01:31:39.060 we're having dinner with our friends. Oh, my wife is pretty awesome. And she knows that that's not

01:31:44.380 one of my favorite things to do. So she doesn't overcommit on, again, I think she just uses it as a,

01:31:51.420 as an excuse. And I think people, my friends actually know me well enough that they don't

01:31:56.060 usually invite me over. So. What are you anti-social? Oh, I don't know what I'm necessarily

01:32:02.040 anti-social, but I'm usually just pretty busy. And so for me, for instance, going to someone's

01:32:09.500 house for dinner, that's a, that's a four hour evolution. And meanwhile, dinner for me is, is,

01:32:16.720 you know, 13 minutes and I'm actually reading while I'm eating, or I'm at least hanging out

01:32:21.760 with my kids. So, uh, I'd say, uh, yeah, four hours versus 15 minutes. I'll, I'd rather get it

01:32:28.480 done in 15 minutes and yeah, I don't know if I'm anti-social, um, but maybe I'm a little bit

01:32:35.300 anti-social. I think, you know, I, I spend a lot of time talking to people. I mean, whether it's doing

01:32:41.200 the podcast, whether it's working with clients, whether it's going to events. And so I'm interacting

01:32:46.040 with people all the time. And so sometimes when I don't have to interact with people,

01:32:49.960 it's kind of nice. So how, how long after meeting your wife, did you propose to her?

01:32:55.280 I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know that I told one of my

01:32:59.260 friends maybe two days later that, uh, if, if, if I can, I'm going to marry this girl.

01:33:05.260 So it's pretty quick. Wow. And I probably could have told you that 15 seconds. Is she British?

01:33:10.700 She is. Yep. She's a Brit. Okay. And so what was it, what was it about her? What kind of a woman

01:33:15.780 does Jocko like it just like, is she tough? Does she have sharp edges or is she soft and sort of

01:33:21.920 the yin to your yang? Uh, I would, I would go yang, yang to the yang over here. Cause she's like

01:33:29.840 super nice. And that's, you know, I realized within 30 seconds of talking that she was a really

01:33:35.740 nice, good hearted human being. And, and also she was incredibly beautiful. So between those two

01:33:42.700 things, I thought this, this might be a keeper. So you have four children together, right?

01:33:48.440 Four, three girls and a boy. Yep. Okay. And did you have similar, cause I know three of

01:33:53.700 them are now college age and one is like 11 or 12. Did you have similar, do you have similar

01:33:58.600 parenting styles? I would say that there's a balance there as well, but we're pretty,

01:34:03.940 we're, we're in the same ballpark. We're in the same ballpark. Are you like a, are you like a Navy

01:34:07.700 seal in the morning? Like up, get up 5am run workout, you know, lift the boat. What, what

01:34:15.640 do you do to them? I'm, I'm more just like any other leadership positions I've ever been

01:34:20.680 in. I believe in decentralized command. And so with, with my kids, people, this is something

01:34:28.960 I said to a client maybe a month ago, my kids never had curfews. So my older kids, if they

01:34:35.640 went out until whenever they went out, I didn't, it was fine. Um, they could go out with their

01:34:41.020 friends. They could stay over someone's house. Uh, I didn't really put restrictions on them

01:34:45.880 other than, Hey, what's your, you know, are you doing well in school? Are your, are your

01:34:50.100 athletics going well? Are you doing your job as a kid? And if you're doing your job as a

01:34:56.100 kid, I trust you and to make good decisions. And so that my kids, it's a lot of decentralized

01:35:03.640 command. They can wake up whenever they want. I can tell you right now, my kids wake up early

01:35:07.560 and they can work out whenever they want. And I'll tell you what, my kids work out every

01:35:11.440 day. And it's not because I yell at them or because I tell them to, it's because they

01:35:15.440 understand the importance of being physically fit and getting stuff done. So I've always

01:35:22.340 been sort of a decentralized command tighter. And that, that absolutely applies with my kids

01:35:28.020 as well. I don't, I don't want my kids to be robots. Right. But like, what happens if

01:35:33.200 they, you know, they came home and they did something really stupid? Yeah. Then there's

01:35:36.900 going to be consequences. And, you know, I had a variety of punishments that I would use

01:35:42.500 with my kids at various stages of their lives. Uh, one of them was, one of them was smashing

01:35:48.840 toys. So I, my, my, I had to use it with my son. I had to use it with my son once. And then

01:35:54.180 once I did it, there was no more issues, but I, I very calmly said, Hey, you know what the,

01:36:00.140 what you did, you're not allowed to do that. So I'm going to have to smash one of your toys.

01:36:05.140 And I, this is probably when he was, I don't know, seven or eight. No, no, actually he was

01:36:10.980 probably five or six took one of his toys. I had a hammer and I said, yep, this is what's

01:36:16.400 going to happen. So I took the toy and I said, I'm sorry that I have to do this, but lessons

01:36:20.700 have to get learned. I smashed this toy. And then I went into his room. I took one of his

01:36:24.960 other favorite toys and I put it in, I put it on the table and I said, this one is on

01:36:30.240 deck. So if you don't want to behave, then this one's next and never had an issue again.

01:36:38.100 Um, I, my kids are always scared when I tell them to put their work clothes on. So if I tell,

01:36:42.960 if I, if I, if I, if something happens and I tell you to put your work clothes on, you're

01:36:46.320 going to be doing some serious manual labor and whether that's pulling weeds or cleaning

01:36:51.440 up garbage or, you know, sweeping sand from one side of the driveway to the other side

01:36:56.380 and back again, I can come up with some pretty good physical, physical labor that comes into

01:37:01.240 play. But quite honestly, the amount of punishments that I had to dole out with my kids is very

01:37:07.720 small because they, they, I think it's more important to just like, just like with a, with

01:37:14.080 a frontline seal, look, that frontline seal is going to be in a situation where they have

01:37:18.680 to make decisions on their own. And if they don't understand the strategy, if they don't

01:37:22.440 understand how, what they're doing will impact everything else that's going on. If they don't

01:37:26.600 understand that you can't count on them to make good decisions. So you have to make sure

01:37:30.200 they understand not just what to do and what not to do, but why they need to do it or why

01:37:34.920 they need not do it. So if they understand that, okay, now they can make good decisions

01:37:39.900 without direct oversight. So my kids are very, they have, they, they have the luxury of

01:37:45.900 decentralized command because I trust them. It's the opposite of helicopter parenting.

01:37:50.460 It's the opposite of helicopter parenting. Yes. They know what they should and should not do.

01:37:55.400 They know the consequences, not consequences from me, but consequences from life. Look,

01:37:59.640 consequences from life are much more stringent than the consequences of a parent.

01:38:03.320 So they, if they understand that, if they understand what, you know, getting a DUI or going down the path

01:38:11.020 of drugs or whatever type of behavior, reckless behavior, they understand that those consequences

01:38:16.820 are way worse than anything I could, I could deliver unto them. So they know that and they can

01:38:24.280 make their own decisions based on that knowledge. And those decisions are, are good.

01:38:28.620 What'd you tell your kids about dealing with bullies?

01:38:32.580 Well, for one thing, my kids all train jujitsu a lot. And so bullying becomes a lot less of a problem

01:38:39.380 when kids actually know how to fight. And, and that goes in both directions, both in being a bully

01:38:45.540 and, and getting bullied. So when you know, jujitsu, someone's going to bully you. And look, if they,

01:38:54.220 if they're going to, you know, talk to you, um, whatever, talk back, no big deal. Don't, you can,

01:38:59.660 you can ignore them. Don't worry about what someone's going to say. Let's add all those to them.

01:39:02.760 Oh, they're just jealous. They, they're just jealous of what you are, who you are. And that's okay.

01:39:07.780 Think about their position. You don't know them. And look, I've written, I've written four kids

01:39:11.740 books and I, I focus heavily on bullying in, in those books. And so, but when you know jujitsu,

01:39:18.640 all of a sudden, not only do you, do you know how to fight, but people know you have, people know,

01:39:24.560 you know how to fight in the way you carry yourself is stronger. And so you have a lot less

01:39:28.680 chance of being bullied because you're not going to allow that to happen to you. So a beautiful solution

01:39:34.720 for bullying is learn jujitsu, learn how to fight. And, and I know that might sound like I'm a

01:39:39.840 Neanderthal and I'm, I'm a knuckle dragger, which I can't deny either one of those two.

01:39:44.580 But when people know jujitsu, they are, they are less likely to fight and they're, they're less

01:39:50.480 likely to get bullied and they are less likely to bully. Okay. But wait, let me ask you about this

01:39:55.700 because you got, you got three girls and as you know, girls, they don't often fight with their

01:40:01.680 fists. They use something far more powerful, which is emotions, social access. I mean, they,

01:40:08.180 they would put those guys, you know, in, in Ramadi to shame. I mean, the 13 year old girl has got

01:40:14.820 powers unseen in certain theaters of war. And so how do you tell your kid to, to deal with that,

01:40:21.840 right? The emotional torture that these young girls can unleash on one another.

01:40:26.060 Yeah. Certainly the psychological warfare among the young females is, uh, is, is a thing to

01:40:31.560 be reckoned with for sure. But once again, if you have that, if you have that level of confidence,

01:40:36.860 then it, it, it doesn't only pertain to your, to your physical state. It applies to your mental

01:40:43.540 state as well. It applies to the way you carry yourself. So having that confidence is important.

01:40:49.420 Well, where do you get confidence? You get confidence from knowing how to handle yourself.

01:40:52.280 How do you learn how to handle yourself? Again, it's not just jujitsu, but it's being in good

01:40:56.940 physical condition. It's studying so that you can, can articulate what you're talking about.

01:41:02.880 And, and like, we started this whole conversation off when I was a little kid, everyone's going to

01:41:08.300 get bullied. You're everyone's going to get bullied. There's always going to be someone stronger,

01:41:11.640 someone meaner. And so again, talking your kids through what, if someone is bullying you,

01:41:18.320 let's say tormenting you verbally, why are they doing that? What situation are they in?

01:41:24.300 What, what, what, what kind of home life do they have? What, what trauma have they been through

01:41:29.920 that they feel so bad about their own life that they want to take it out on you? So if you can

01:41:37.400 kind of explain that to a kid, it's very helpful because they realize that they, they don't need

01:41:44.680 to stoop down to that level. They can, they can rise above it and nod their head and smile and say,

01:41:50.000 I hope you feel better tomorrow. It's good. You know, it's funny because I actually didn't know

01:41:55.400 that you had written children's books. And one of the things I did in preparing for this interview

01:41:58.820 was I haven't read them yet, but I said to my assistant, get me every single one he's written.

01:42:02.340 And so they're all sitting there. I'm actually really excited to get started on those with my

01:42:05.960 kids because, you know, too much of the children's books are total nonsense. And now they've gone like

01:42:11.340 totally woke, which I don't want either. I want like good practical advice for life's situations.

01:42:17.000 And it sounds like these might be right up my alley. And it, and by the way, it reminds me of,

01:42:21.620 you wrote, you wrote something not long ago about toxic masculinity and what bullshit this whole thing

01:42:27.040 was about like the American Psychological Association's guidelines on how, you know,

01:42:31.480 you shouldn't control your emotions and you shouldn't be competitive and you shouldn't be

01:42:35.040 dominant. And you completely just killed it. It was actually a great, great piece. But I love that

01:42:40.560 you, this is one of the lines that you had, a leader must strive for balance and a man must do the

01:42:45.720 same. Be courageous, but not foolhardy, decisive, but not dictatorial, open-minded, but principled,

01:42:52.980 disciplined, but not rigid. It certainly sounds like you've, you've lived that Jocko. And listen,

01:42:59.160 if you don't, if you'll indulge me one more second, I really wanted to ask you as somebody who has spent

01:43:04.120 your life the way you have before I let you go, can you just try to sum up what you love about America?

01:43:10.740 It's pretty simple and straightforward. America is, is a wide open opportunity for, for people.

01:43:19.500 And it's based on the fact that we have freedom as individuals. And I I'm, I'm living proof of that.

01:43:26.640 You know, I own multiple businesses right now. We've got a, I've got a factory up in Maine where

01:43:31.720 we're making clothing and boots and jeans in America, a hundred percent from the cotton that's

01:43:39.080 grown in the fields and in the South to the, the, the, the dye houses down there to us bringing that

01:43:44.700 material up and, and weaving it up in Maine. This, this is just a place of incredible opportunity.

01:43:51.980 And I think that that's what, that's what, that's what the strength of America is the strength of

01:43:57.860 America is, you know, I talked about decentralized command a couple of times today. What, what makes

01:44:01.940 America so incredible is we, we have decentralized command, you know, you can pick what your goals

01:44:07.620 are and you can go out. And if you want to work hard and you want to dedicate yourself, you can

01:44:13.580 absolutely make, you can actually absolutely achieve those goals, not based on what someone

01:44:18.500 else does for you, but based on what you do for yourself. So to me, the individual freedom that we

01:44:24.920 have in this country is the strongest asset. It's just, look, decentralized command on the

01:44:30.180 battlefield is the strongest asset you can have knowing that people are going to make decisions

01:44:34.000 and make things happen based on understanding the goal that they're trying to strive towards.

01:44:38.900 That's the best kind of team. It's the best kind of team in the business world where everybody on

01:44:43.520 the team knows what the goal is and they go out there and they maneuver and work and move the team

01:44:49.100 towards that goal as an individual. And it's the same thing with this country. We have individual

01:44:53.460 freedom. You have the freedom to go out and make things happen. And that is what makes America

01:44:58.720 so strong in my mind. And then obviously on top of that, we have incredibly brave people in this

01:45:05.940 country that serve and sacrifice. And the fact that every single day there's a new recruit walking

01:45:11.720 into bootcamp in the army, in the Navy, in the air force, in the Marine Corps, and no matter what race,

01:45:18.560 gender, male, female, they are stepping into that role and they are ready to make that sacrifice.

01:45:24.760 And that's why we will always maintain this freedom that we have in this country.

01:45:30.680 Jocko Willink, thank you for your service. Thank you for being here.

01:45:35.260 It was an honor to serve and thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

01:45:38.180 Coming up on Friday, don't forget to tune into the show because we've got country superstar John

01:45:47.600 Rich of Big and Rich. He's a pal. He's a great guy. And he recently spoke to Trump and has a little

01:45:53.620 news for you. He also recently spoke to some senators whose names you will know with a personal

01:46:01.460 warning of kinds from John Rich and he's going to break a little news on what happened there. I think

01:46:07.160 you're going to love him. This is a lover of America, folks. He, his granny rich who instilled

01:46:11.440 him with the proper values. Uh, and he's got deep love of country and a lot of thoughts on how the

01:46:16.320 rest of us need to be thinking about the United States and our government and our connection to

01:46:21.280 one another. And, uh, I know you're going to love it. So that's John Rich next episode. Don't forget

01:46:25.620 to subscribe, download, rate five stars, and give me a review. Would you please? I'm still reading them.

01:46:31.260 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:46:37.160 The Megan Kelly show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.

The Megyn Kelly Show - March 17, 2021

Jocko Willink on Responding to Adversity, Personal Responsibility and Victimhood, and Parenting ｜ Ep. 77

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