The Megyn Kelly Show - Jodi Arias Trial That Captivated America： A Megyn Kelly Show True Crime Special ｜ Ep. 571

00:00:00.460 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.940 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. All this week we are bringing

00:00:16.660 you our hot crime summer shows. Today, a deep dive into the Jody Arias case. This month marks

00:00:23.620 15 years since Travis Alexander was viciously murdered by his ex-girlfriend Jody Arias.

00:00:30.000 We revisit the case with criminal defense attorney and longtime Kelly's Court contributor Mark

00:00:35.080 Eiglarsh. We'll take a look back at the events leading up to Travis's murder, what Jody's

00:00:40.140 life is like in prison today, and Mark will dissect the defense and prosecution in a way

00:00:45.460 that only Mark can. I'm going to kick it off with a little walk down memory lane because

00:00:51.180 you used to come on Kelly's Court back then as now. This one doesn't involve you. This

00:00:55.900 Kelly's Court doesn't involve you, but it's a scene setter. Now we're 10 years post-verdict

00:01:00.080 right now. Here's a little flashback to I was on the air when we got the guilty verdict

00:01:05.020 and covered it with the court then, which was Mercedes Colwyn that day and Jonas Bilboer.

00:01:09.560 Look at this sweet delivery. She's so concerned about their happiness and their peace now. Listen.

00:01:19.640 I hope that now that a verdict has been rendered that they're able to find peace,

00:01:25.120 some sense of peace. That's great. And the Oscar goes to, because this is a woman who stabbed him 27

00:01:32.800 times in the heart as well, then shot him and look at the bloody sink. I'm not to be sensationalist,

00:01:38.740 but prosecutors say the man was standing at the sink watching himself get stabbed to death,

00:01:44.520 watching himself get murdered and bleed out over, over the sink. Oh, but Mercedes,

00:01:49.500 she's so concerned about the family's peace. Give me a break. Okay. A very pregnant Megan Kelly 0.98

00:01:56.700 in that clip, but that gets to it, right? I mean, the thing, because I've been asking myself, Mark,

00:02:02.020 what is it about the Jodi Arias case that kept people so riveted? And in part, it's this mousy 0.88

00:02:09.900 little woman who committed one of the most heinous murders that ever came before the national eye.

00:02:18.320 You left out one thing, which is obvious, and maybe you intentionally did it, but

00:02:22.160 Americans like pretty packages. Okay. If she wasn't pretty, and I put that in quotations, 1.00

00:02:29.380 I mean, it's not how I feel, but there is some type of objective, you know, in Hollywood,

00:02:34.540 what people look for, people found that she was attractive. And if she wasn't, and she looked 1.00

00:02:39.720 differently, I don't know if people would have been as interested. So let's, let's bring that out.

00:02:44.940 That's, that's gotta be something that you concede, right?

00:02:47.160 Right. And the sex, I mean, it was like an R rated trial. It was like Cinemax back in the day.

00:02:54.480 Oh yeah. No, there was a lot of that. Yes. And, and she really threw punches. I mean, 0.97

00:03:02.640 she really, you know, dead man can't tell tales. He was dead. She was free to say whatever the hell

00:03:07.080 she wanted. So whether it be, you know, allegations of him being involved in kiddie porn, which he can't

00:03:13.440 defend or, or, or him wanting to do, which really was documented because you heard those horrible

00:03:20.120 audio tapes of him, you know, some of the things he would do to her, which weren't meant for public

00:03:25.280 viewing. It was just horrible. All right. So let's start, let's start at the beginning.

00:03:30.100 These two meet in 2008, I think it was 2008 at a business convention and 2006, sorry to September.

00:03:39.780 These two meet in September, 2006 at a work conference in Las Vegas, Nevada, Jody Arias and

00:03:46.300 Travis Alexander. And then they start dating on a few months after that, as far as I can tell, Mark,

00:03:54.180 they were only dating for like four months, but then continue to sleep with each other.

00:04:02.040 Yeah. It sounds like it became very physical, very quickly. And, you know, she's the manipulative 1.00

00:04:08.620 type, right? So I can't imagine this was pure love. I think this was lust. I think this was her,

00:04:14.080 you know, playing the angles, looking to manipulate him. And she jumped all in real quick.

00:04:20.440 Did we have any evidence that prior to that relationship, because I think she was like

00:04:24.200 28, he was a couple of years older than that, that she was some sort of a psycho that she had, 0.63

00:04:30.440 you know, problems with other partners in turning into a stalker or any other criminal history.

00:04:37.400 I don't remember hearing anything like that. I heard little stories, but, you know, everybody

00:04:43.400 comes out of the woodwork on high profile cases, nothing that I attributed as credible and believable.

00:04:50.140 So he was a Mormon and she wasn't until after she met him, right?

00:04:57.000 Right, right. She became a drive-through Mormon, you know, all of a sudden I'll convert. I'm sure that 1.00

00:05:01.700 was, you know, again, to somehow take one step further into his good graces.

00:05:07.860 So they, they, they meet, uh, yeah, here she is getting her, you know, I don't know. Is it a

00:05:13.720 baptism into the Mormon face? I'm not exactly sure how we would refer to this, but they date from

00:05:18.340 February of 2007 to June, 2007. And then they break up and maintain a physical relationship.

00:05:23.800 One year later, one year later, she appears to stage a burglary at her grandparents' house.

00:05:32.700 This would become important because it was one week before the murder. And what happened in that

00:05:38.460 burglary? Yeah. Next level stuff. She's thinking, okay, they stole a gun from my grandparents. So that

00:05:47.600 gun's out there in the criminal world. So that's the gun. However, she'd like to use to potentially,

00:05:53.740 execute her boy. This is relevant because she would later claim when she was on trial, 1.00

00:06:00.160 a bunch of different things, intruders, accident, self-defense. And if she intentionally staged a

00:06:07.780 burglary at her parent, her grandparents' house a week before the murder, then it's very clearly a

00:06:13.080 premeditated act. Absolutely. The best she's got is, well, I brought it with me for protection. I was

00:06:19.180 going on the road, whatever. I didn't mean to kill him. I had it with me. It doesn't necessarily mean

00:06:23.260 she wanted to kill him, but it's strong evidence of it. But I got to go back. There's something

00:06:27.460 that's bothering me and it'll bother me tonight, Megan. I had brought out that she has a pretty 0.98

00:06:34.020 shell to many people. Did you concede that? Is she what you would call attractive? And I'm not

00:06:40.580 talking about her soul. I'm just saying, don't you think that that played a role in why people cared

00:06:46.860 so much? Why the media? Oh, sure. Yeah. If you have an attractive defendant or victim. I mean,

00:06:53.460 I think she was prettier when things started. And then when she took the stand, when she was at

00:06:57.480 trial, she tried to make herself look very plain, Janie mousy, you know, but the blonde and, you know, 1.00

00:07:02.660 the naked pictures, obviously she's got a very good body. All those things play into, oh, what's 1.00

00:07:08.420 happening there? I do want that kind of a person. Right. All right. I got what I needed. You can move

00:07:12.480 along. I got it. I just needed to know that. Okay. So the date of that burglary was May 28th,

00:07:18.440 2008, June 2nd, 2008, which is now two days before the murder. She rented a vehicle from budget rent-a-car

00:07:26.960 in Redding, California. And then on June 4th, 2008, Travis Alexander was killed in Mesa, Arizona.

00:07:34.880 So, I mean, to me, this does all look like premeditation. She looks like a jilted lover who 0.98

00:07:40.260 became a stalker, who became obsessed with him. We're told that in, I think, April, right before

00:07:46.220 the fake burglary at her grandparents' house, he was going to go with her on some trip.

00:07:52.340 Nat. Right? And then he bailed.

00:07:55.520 Cancun. Everybody wants to go to Cancun, baby. And then he, she thought she was in the money. She was

00:08:02.040 going to go with him. It's going to be romantic. He's going to really spend the dough on me. He's

00:08:06.960 going to, he's going to, it's going to be romantic. And he picked another girl. That was it.

00:08:13.620 And that really can be the catalyst for a lunatic. Like you never know what's going to set

00:08:17.680 some crazy stalker off. Sure. To the point of, you know, disappoint any normal gal who has strong 1.00

00:08:25.000 feelings for someone for whatever reason. But when you take someone who's, you know, got 51 cards and

00:08:30.400 isn't all there, that can really amp it up. Yes. All right. So that's as near as we can tell,

00:08:36.160 like one of the last final acts he does that gets in her head somehow, but they had been on again,

00:08:42.200 off again with the sex after breakup. So, you know, who knows how this exactly files in June 4th, 2008.

00:08:49.360 That's the day of the murder. Uh, and we'll get to what happened that day, but

00:08:53.040 weirdly his body was not found for another five days. Why do we know why that was? Like,

00:09:01.120 did he not have a job? Did he not have friends? How do you sit in your, you know, how is it that

00:09:05.800 a body's five days in the apartment without anybody noticing? Yeah, it was like that. I'm

00:09:10.040 trying to think of the specifics, but they, he was supposed to be somewhere and then they checked

00:09:14.300 in on him. I think a friend did finally, he wasn't there, but yeah, I don't think he had any place

00:09:19.140 that he had to be. He didn't have roommates. He didn't have nosy, you know, uh, parents coming

00:09:24.300 around. So yeah, it just happened. Wow. All right. So the day of the murder, June 4th,

00:09:31.360 what happened? She, she goes over there and what happened? Well, I don't know. Meaning,

00:09:37.700 you know, we have what was alleged by the prosecution and the jury found her guilty. You never

00:09:43.880 really know exactly what took place. Um, but what it looked like was, um, she had a plan to execute

00:09:52.200 him and that's exactly what happened. She tried to defend with, he was attacking me and that was

00:09:57.300 malarkey. Initially though, I think she was on inside edition and told a few people I wasn't there.

00:10:03.360 I was framed like the Mona Lisa. I had nothing to do with it. And then when the evidence comes out,

00:10:07.860 like most of my clients do, they go, Oh wait, you got that evidence. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I was

00:10:12.380 there, but that's what happened. So initially, you know, the murder happens on June 4th. She leaves.

00:10:21.040 We, we know, I mean, she winds up confessing on the stand. We know she did this crime now. Um,

00:10:26.040 but she left the crime scene. No one's finds Travis until his friends realize like he's not showing up

00:10:33.420 at events, et cetera. And they go to his house. They, the friends find his body in a crumpled heap

00:10:41.380 in his shower, an incredibly bloody crime scene and called nine one one. Here's a bit of that

00:10:48.000 call. It's not one.

00:10:50.040 Hello. Hi. So what's going on? He's, uh, he, he's dead. He's in his bedroom in the shower. Okay. How did this

00:11:00.040 happen? Do you have any idea? No, we have no idea. Everyone's been wondering about him for a few days.

00:11:05.040 She said that there was blood. So is it coming from his head? Did he cut his head? No, it's all over the place.

00:11:11.120 Hmm. And right away, Mark, the friends suspected her. They, they described her to the authorities as,

00:11:18.880 as a potential stalker. And that's what Travis had been saying about her, but they did have sex that 0.98

00:11:25.600 day. Right. I mean, like it appears that they had hours and hours of some sort of sexual interlude

00:11:30.060 prior to the murder. That's what's so unusual. Listen, you know, this guy clearly was a guy with

00:11:35.660 strong emotions, which is the nicest thing I can say about him in terms of that. And, you know,

00:11:40.400 they went at it. And my guess is there were some discussions. Maybe that was her way of trying to

00:11:45.800 convince him to pick her and replace the gal that he did select for Cancun to go. I don't know,

00:11:52.720 but something happened and she snapped. If, if she didn't plan on doing this anyway, no matter what.

00:12:00.300 Cause you have hours and we know this because they found a camera that the two had been taking

00:12:05.320 pictures of the sexual acts. There's pictures of her posing totally nude for the camera. I mean,

00:12:13.300 very consensually does not look like a forced situation on either end. So for sure. And it

00:12:18.500 looks like it went on for hours. What do you make of that? In other words, I want to know what you

00:12:24.240 think there. Why are they having sex? The next minute she's executing him in a horrible, horrible, 1.00

00:12:30.340 tragic way, which we're going to get to. But why do you think, what's the sex about? What do you

00:12:34.620 think? I think it was like a goodbye gift from her to him though. He didn't realize that's what it

00:12:40.340 was. I think he thought it was just genuine, a genuine hookup. And I think she had this whole

00:12:44.760 thing planned. She went there to murder him and this was her farewell, you know, send off to the

00:12:51.160 guy. I do. That's why she's a sick effort. And so I think she had the whole thing planned out. This

00:12:57.120 was, there's no other reason. Okay. That is just cold as ice, baby. Wow. That's her. That's what's

00:13:06.060 interesting about her. I mean, from a, you know, I never thought about that. Like why? In fact,

00:13:11.460 in my mind, I couldn't wrap my head around that theory. And so I then thought, okay, she's got it

00:13:18.460 just in case whatever. And then things go awry and then she kills him either second degree or she 1.00

00:13:26.440 just said, okay, it's part of my plan that I'm now going to implement. And she had time to think about

00:13:31.540 it when she's there and she does it. But I don't know, man, you think she knew she was going to

00:13:36.720 kill him prior to having sex with him? Yes, I do. I think the whole thing was planned out in great 0.99

00:13:43.300 detail, but she's a bad murderer. I mean, she's, she was effective at committing the murder, but 1.00

00:13:48.880 very bad at covering up her tracks. And she should have spent more, more time in the planning and the

00:13:53.620 lying phase because she turned out to be a disaster at that. Now she very shortly thereafter gets 1.00

00:13:59.640 arrested. The friends are like, it was, it was Jodi Arias. She's a stalker. Meanwhile, the day after

00:14:04.940 the murder, she went and saw another love interest, some guy named Ryan Burns, a former coworker of her,

00:14:10.120 of his, of hers in Utah. That guy, I think he also took the stand. It's like, that's how cold she is,

00:14:16.660 Mark. Like she now at this point, there's no doubt she committed this brutal murder the day before she 0.99

00:14:21.140 goes off to see another lover. Oh, no problem. I mean, like, yeah. Consistent with what you were

00:14:26.440 saying, like to be able to have sex with, with, with this guy before she, she kills him, you know, 1.00

00:14:31.520 there's Travis, all right, he's dead. She, she seems to just manipulate. And this is also what I know 1.00

00:14:37.840 after the fact I'm jumping ahead of how she manipulates everybody in prison and stuff like

00:14:42.320 that. But that seems to be her MO. I don't know that type of person, but someone who,

00:14:47.180 who can't have an honest relationship and it's all about manipulation. So she probably had numerous 1.00

00:14:53.220 fellas in her life, including the guy you just mentioned where, okay, onto him. What do I need

00:14:57.660 from him? Let me manipulate him to get it. And they're, they tend to be narcissistic personalities,

00:15:02.960 right? Who it's all about them. You only matter to the extent you reflect off of them. You cannot

00:15:09.240 leave them. You certainly cannot dump them the way Travis did with Jody. Um, and that's why you

00:15:15.260 can't process it as a normal person because we normal people don't react that way when they get

00:15:19.100 dumped. It's sad, but we don't kill anybody. So she goes to see Ryan. Let me tell you this,

00:15:24.660 that type of person gets very misunderstood because the average juror who's arguably like you and me,

00:15:32.060 you know, who's got sensibilities, uh, the right moral compass, who goes to work every day,

00:15:37.000 kids, family, normal, they come in and they're trying to analyze the actions of some of these

00:15:41.660 people. And a lot of times you're like, well, wait, that doesn't make sense. I wouldn't do that.

00:15:45.980 There's no way that happened. I, I couldn't have done that. Even with the Murdoch trial to this day,

00:15:50.920 I know he killed his wife and kid and OJ killed. You know, it's hard for me to actually see it 0.98

00:15:58.200 because it's so foreign to me and what I would do and what the average juror can wrap their heads

00:16:03.940 around. Well, that plays into the brutality of the crime because you, you'd look at this beautiful,

00:16:10.480 tiny woman and you do not think she would be capable of this. You know, you see like two big 1.00

00:16:18.860 muscly men with the tats in the prison in their background. And you think, Oh, okay.

00:16:23.920 But teardrops from the eye. Yeah. Yeah. You see Jodi Arias. You think, Nope, because

00:16:28.780 the level of violence that went down at this crime scene was unbelievable.

00:16:35.700 27 stab wounds, a slit throat and a gunshot to his face. And the medical examiner testified that the,

00:16:46.620 the actual like slicing was extremely deep, three to four inches deep, uh, into his neck, trying to find

00:16:55.060 the exact, um, the description of it, but it was absolutely merciless. She, she nearly decapitated him 0.67

00:17:04.640 while he was in that shower. She clearly went in there while he was showering and nearly decapitated 0.97

00:17:09.460 him, stabbed him 27 times. And then the medical examiner said after that shot him in the face. So, 0.81

00:17:15.440 I mean, the level of anger behind that Mark speaks to what, I mean, I don't know. What do we,

00:17:22.360 what do we glean from the level of violence? It goes back to what I keep trying to do in my head,

00:17:28.620 maybe as a defense lawyer, as a compassionate soul to believe that something went down before

00:17:35.040 that happened, that he said something that set her off. I find it hard to believe, although I'm not

00:17:41.240 relating to this type of person that she, and this is probably what she did, that she had the whole

00:17:45.700 plan. And this was, as you say, her goodbye love session. And then I'm going to get them in the

00:17:50.400 shower. And she did. It just seems more consistent with someone who was set off by some words or

00:17:56.760 action. Okay. But how can that be? Because we've seen the crime photos and, and among the photos that

00:18:02.260 they found on the camera, which she left behind is there are photos of Travis in that shower.

00:18:08.720 And it appears to be after the lovemaking, you know, he's in the shower, he's not wearing his

00:18:13.060 clothing. And that's of course, we know where he was killed and he's okay. There are photos of him

00:18:17.800 in the shower. He's okay. So you don't have a fight. I mean, like he, an errant word from the shower

00:18:23.820 as she was photographing him naked after their lovemaking. That doesn't make sense. My theory makes

00:18:28.220 much more sense. No, it might. I, again, I'm listen, I'm not defending this woman at all.

00:18:34.060 I'm just saying as a human, I'm just opening up and telling you how it's still hard for me to wrap

00:18:38.840 my head around what she did. It's so challenging. And it's hard to understand how she, this life

00:18:44.400 thin little thing could, could kill him, could kill a man. He wasn't overly large, but he was bigger

00:18:53.980 than she was. And how do you stab a man? 27. I mean, he was in the shower, I guess he's vulnerable

00:18:59.400 and he's not expecting it. But I mean, if that, if that, you know, slice across the neck was number

00:19:04.580 one, then that would have been the end of it. And it probably, and it probably wasn't. I think

00:19:08.940 the medical examiner said that those defensive wounds on his hands likely came first, which would

00:19:14.740 make sense. She's, he's caught off guard. He goes like this. She continues to stab. Um, but you just

00:19:20.200 said it, he's off guard. He doesn't expect it. He's vulnerable. He's got nothing to defend

00:19:26.060 himself except the bar. So, you know, what do you do? She, she, she knew what she was doing

00:19:31.060 and she's passionate and aggressive and, and, and wanted it done. 0.93

00:19:35.940 And then to shoot him after the fact is that Emmy said that he didn't see a brain hemorrhage

00:19:40.420 from the bullet in Travis's head. And he said there would be if, if the bullet had gone in there

00:19:46.440 while he was alive and his blood was pumping. So she shot him. She just made sure, you know,

00:19:51.800 he was a hundred percent dead. She wanted this guy dead. She was very angry with him, 0.99

00:19:55.960 which again suggests that I think my theory, you know, she was angry. She was dumped. She was angry. 1.00

00:20:02.060 She wasn't going to Cancun. You don't dump somebody who's a narcissistic sociopath like Jody Arias. 1.00

00:20:08.020 And the whole thing was a setup. That's, you know, that seems to be what the evidence suggests. 0.66

00:20:13.140 I agree. I just, I just cannot relate. It's going to take me some time to process probably

00:20:17.700 tonight as I'm laying down, writing my gratefuls. Wait a second. She had sex with him as a goodbye.

00:20:23.480 Megan said that. And I trust Megan. I believe her. And then executes him in the most violent manner. 0.99

00:20:29.740 In other words, after stab number 16, that apparently wasn't enough for her. You know,

00:20:34.700 it required another few jabs right now. We're at 21, 22, still not enough. I need about six more.

00:20:41.000 And then I'm going to slash his throat and shoot him. You really do have to think about what she 1.00

00:20:45.640 actually did to appreciate how abhorrent this was. My God. And then, and then leave his crumpled

00:20:51.460 dead body in the shower. Like he was trash. Um, she did get arrested a month and a couple of days 1.00

00:20:59.520 after the act. Uh, then more bizarre behavior came out. I'll get to the interrogation room,

00:21:07.880 but she gave an interview to inside edition. Well, Mark's number one advice to all of his

00:21:13.920 clients. Do not talk. Shut up. Let me do the talking. If there's going to be any talking,

00:21:19.340 she talked to the fish who kept his mouth shut, never got caught. Right. That's right. Um,

00:21:25.940 that's right. And, and, and I'm not saying that certain interviews aren't beneficial. We I've done it

00:21:32.740 many cases, but that's after, you know, what the evidence is, you know, the parameters, you know,

00:21:38.400 how you can and can't get hurt. What she did was just reckless. So she gives an interview to 0.96

00:21:45.020 inside edition, which actually makes some sense knowing her in the way we do. She did. She,

00:21:51.460 she was a narcissist. She wanted to be a star. She cared about how she looked, how people were 0.59

00:21:55.520 perceiving her. Um, I think she was seeing an opportunity to like see her name in lights as

00:22:00.640 opposed to just like, Oh my God, keep yourself out of bars. Um, here is a bit of what she told

00:22:06.020 inside edition. This is well before the trial after she'd just been placed in jail. Did you kill

00:22:12.120 Travis Alexander? I absolutely did not kill Travis Alexander. I had nothing to do with his murder. I

00:22:17.100 didn't harm him in any way. I witnessed, um, Travis being attacked by two other individuals.

00:22:23.400 Who? I don't know who they were. I couldn't pick them out in a police lineup. So what happened?

00:22:29.580 Um, they came into his home and attacked us both. You did not shoot Travis. No, I've never even shot

00:22:36.400 a real gun. You did not stab him 27 times. That's, that's heinous. Or slit his throat from ear to ear.

00:22:43.080 I can't imagine slitting anyone's throat. No jury is going to convict me. Why not? Because I'm 0.98

00:22:48.280 innocent and you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me. Oh man. Oh man. We could,

00:22:56.800 we could have, we could do an hour just on that. There is so much there. So wait, all right. So

00:23:01.720 let me just go. First of all, the one thing she asked for was for makeup prior to her mug shot.

00:23:10.320 That's what she's thinking about. Right. Right. I'm not thinking about a life of, of having to never

00:23:17.040 take a shower ever again in a, in a jail or prison because you know, I'm too pretty. She's worried

00:23:23.020 about her mug shot. She needs to, to mix. There we go. It is a nice mug shot. So it goes to your point

00:23:30.060 how she's so narcissistic. She wants the world to love her and, and believe that she's, you know,

00:23:35.020 Snow White, but look at the way she acted. This is why you never know anyone. You just know how 1.00

00:23:42.080 they want you to see them because she looks believable. If you know nothing about the facts

00:23:48.040 of the case and you look at, you go, yeah, how could she have done that? So beware folks. You never

00:23:53.500 really. I watched that interview, Mark. And all I can think of is Phil Houston, the human lie detector,

00:24:00.200 CIA guy who invented the deception detection method that's still used there.

00:24:04.580 He was at CIA for 25 years and what he talks about, I'll set it up for you. I'll play it again,

00:24:09.060 but listen to how, okay. She does a couple of the things convincing behavior. If I say to you,

00:24:14.540 Mark, did you kill this guy? You say, no, you don't try to convince me. You would never kill

00:24:19.940 anybody. That's, that's not what a normal non-killer does. Um, so the convincing behavior,

00:24:27.420 the deflecting behavior, the qualifying statements, the trying to convince you she's a good person.

00:24:33.100 And listen, listen to it again, understanding those are signs of deception.

00:24:37.680 Did you kill Travis Alexander?

00:24:40.160 I absolutely did not kill Travis Alexander. I had nothing to do with his murder. I didn't harm him in

00:24:44.480 any way. I witnessed, um, Travis being attacked by two other individuals.

00:24:50.520 Who?

00:24:50.820 I don't know who they were. I couldn't pick them out in a police lineup.

00:24:54.360 So what happened?

00:24:56.280 Um, they came into his home and attacked us both.

00:25:00.160 You did not shoot Travis.

00:25:01.920 No, I've never even shot a real gun.

00:25:03.700 You did not stab him 27 times.

00:25:06.260 I've never, no, that's, that's heinous.

00:25:08.120 Or slit his throat from ear to ear.

00:25:09.760 I can't imagine slitting anyone's throat. No jury is going to convict me. 0.98

00:25:13.480 Why not?

00:25:14.360 Because I'm innocent and you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me.

00:25:20.460 Classic. That's heinous. What? That's convincing.

00:25:23.400 No, um, I can't imagine ever slitting. So who says that you wouldn't say that you'd say,

00:25:28.360 no, no, I didn't do it. Period.

00:25:30.960 Listen, in retrospect, you see all these signs. You don't really see it up front,

00:25:36.000 but she did, you know, listen, there's one thing that she did say that really bothers me.

00:25:39.300 And I know it's probably for other cases, but when I can't stand when people blame other people

00:25:44.620 for their crimes and worse, I actually think there should be an enhancement, a penalty enhancement

00:25:49.300 when you pick somebody of a certain race or gender. 0.98

00:25:53.460 Oh, black man. It was two Latino women who did this, or it was two black males who I can't stand 1.00

00:26:01.120 that. All right, I'm done. No, it happens all the time. Yeah. Two Latino women. Who is that? 1.00

00:26:06.940 That was the blonde lady, the wife who staged her own disappearance. What's your name? 0.60

00:26:12.980 You so now. So how many, how many Hispanic Latino women are stopped and questioned and harassed in 1.00

00:26:20.000 that area because of what she said? Right. I can't. Well, at least Jody area said I couldn't

00:26:25.100 pick them out of a lineup. Like, don't bother. Don't worry. We won't. Oh, Sherry Papini. Sherry

00:26:30.800 Papini was the one that we're wasting precious judicial and law enforcement resources on her 1.00

00:26:37.920 trying to identify someone that give her credit. Yes. Okay. So she gives that BS interview. I mean,

00:26:43.380 it's so weird and you can take it right now. I'm not going to be convicted. What the hell?

00:26:46.680 This is not a sports game. Like just, this is a crazy person sitting there though, not legally, 0.99

00:26:51.540 but on the subject of craziness, there was video of her in the interrogation room at the police station

00:26:57.800 doing a headstand. And I want to ask you why, why did she do this? They left her alone in the

00:27:06.300 interrogation room for the listening audience. She goes down, headstand, legs up against the wall.

00:27:11.400 She's got no shoes on. She's in civilian clothes. She holds it for 30 seconds. They said she then

00:27:17.000 began to walk around the little interrogation room and sing a Dido song, uh, and search through the

00:27:22.080 trash. So Mark, what's that about? Well, whenever I've done that, Megan, um, I have no idea.

00:27:29.100 I should know what that means. That's a nut job. Is she going for an insanity thing? That's my first 1.00

00:27:36.500 thought was, is she trying to look like a nutcase in the most serious circumstances she's doing 1.00

00:27:41.200 headstands? No, no, no, no, no, no. I eliminate that. Listen, of all your theories, that one I don't

00:27:46.520 like because that would mean this narcissist who has consistently said that it wasn't her. She wasn't

00:27:52.980 there. I was framed like the Mona Lisa. She's not going to then say I'm nutty. I'm crazy. I did it.

00:27:59.100 But I did it because I'm, you know, I don't know right from wrong and I have a mental illness

00:28:02.860 or defect. There's no way that that's what she was doing. So could it just be, she's been in there

00:28:07.600 for hours and somehow in her apartment, she does that. I don't know. There's women who do headstands 1.00

00:28:13.900 like that for some purpose, I think. Right. Isn't that part of some pose that somebody might do?

00:28:19.520 Yeah. I mean, it could have been a stress reliever. I don't know. It could have been a stress

00:28:22.180 stress. I'm sure she was stressed. Um, you heard in that interview with inside edition,

00:28:27.380 she claimed for the first time, two intruders killed Travis and that she was there as well.

00:28:33.280 The ones she would never be able to pick out of a lineup. Um, she continued to claim a home invasion

00:28:39.860 and that we'd been there having a consensual sexual interlude using the camera before the

00:28:45.980 intruders got there. The camera is one of the most interesting things about the whole day.

00:28:50.700 They took pictures of each other. She took pictures of him post injury, like post at least

00:29:01.480 one picture they say of it was of him in the shower, like while he was being attacked. And so

00:29:07.220 we have crime scene photos that the police took that show us actually what happened to him. But

00:29:10.500 the reporting was that there was at least one photo post initial injury. How does this person

00:29:15.960 leave the camera there? And I think they eventually found it like in the washing machine or yes. I'm

00:29:23.180 glad you said that I was getting that vibe. It was either washing machine. God, I'm thinking back all

00:29:27.100 these years. It was either washing machine or dryer. So I think it was the washing and somehow the, um,

00:29:32.960 I don't know the little disc or whatever they use was still good. And they were able to get those

00:29:37.340 photos. And again, once that evidence came in, that's it. She's done all our story.

00:29:42.920 I don't get it, Mark. She leaves. She's got all the time in the world. She leaves. They don't find

00:29:47.320 the body for five days. She knows there's a camera with all these photos of her at a minimum with him

00:29:54.340 moments before he dies. Now, why? Washing machine. She thinks washy, washy. Bye bye. That's what I

00:30:01.760 think happened. Why wouldn't she just take it with her? I don't get it. It's too stupid. Is she a moron?

00:30:08.260 She left a lot of clues and she's serving a life sentence. I wouldn't put her up there with 1.00

00:30:11.860 Einstein. Yeah. She gets arrested. She goes on trial once she takes the stand. And was it a

00:30:22.540 surprise? Do you remember? Because the prosecution went on for two weeks before the defense had to

00:30:27.400 offer its side. Was it a shock when she took the stand? I don't think I was shocked. No. Um,

00:30:34.880 in fact, the type of person that she was very outspoken, very passionate. I think she needed to,

00:30:39.960 I think that she, I think it was expected. I don't think I was shocked. Okay. Because somebody's

00:30:46.100 going to have to say what happened inside of that room and she's going to have to admit she was there

00:30:51.240 now, thanks to the photographic evidence. Yeah. And also anytime there's any element of

00:30:57.280 self-defense, which is pretty much what she was saying, that she was attacked and then she,

00:31:01.640 you know, had to do something that, that, that can't be brought up by a lawyer. You got to put them

00:31:05.580 up there. Okay. Cause, because she started with intruders to inside edition. Uh, she continued

00:31:10.640 with home invasion. Uh, and you know, I was an innocent victim that saw him, you know, get

00:31:15.820 attacked. And then she switched, she switched to Travis attacked me and I killed him in self-defense.

00:31:25.220 She, in August of 2010, she submitted a request to the court to have letters allegedly from Travis

00:31:32.420 Alexander admitted into evidence. The letters were meant to help prove her new theory of self-defense.

00:31:38.580 The prosecution objected saying the defendant argues that the letters are relevant to her claim

00:31:42.860 of self-defense and that she was a victim of previous sexual and physical abuse by Mr. Alexander,

00:31:47.480 but they denied that. And they said that these letters should not be allowed. Um, her new theory was

00:31:54.140 that Travis Alexander became angry when she dropped his camera and she was forced to kill him in self

00:32:02.060 defense. That was ultimately Mark, what she did claim in front of the jury. Was it not?

00:32:07.280 That's all that was left. In other words, okay. The two intruder theory didn't work. Everything else

00:32:12.860 didn't work. Then you're left with, all right, I'm there. I can either do insanity, which works in a

00:32:18.420 fraction of 1% of the cases. And in this case with all the planning and all the, you know, lies after

00:32:24.420 the fact would absolutely not work. So by, you know, the same way I took the bar exam, I might not have

00:32:29.540 known the answer, but I eliminate those that definitely aren't the right answer. And what's

00:32:33.180 left is the only thing I got to go with. That's what happened. She starts to try to demonize 1.00

00:32:38.500 Travis. He abused me. He sexually pressured me. He treated me like I was his sexual play thing.

00:32:47.020 I didn't enjoy it. He was this Mormon who, you know, made me do dirty things that I didn't want to do 1.00

00:32:52.760 because he, whatever, he had some beliefs that he didn't want to cross. Here's some of that.

00:32:57.480 Okay. We have, um, first of all, she accuses him of being a pedophile just to set the jury's

00:33:03.000 expectation of him, you know, where she wanted it. Right. Absolutely. No proof of that whatsoever.

00:33:08.200 Other than her weird word here, that is sought for. I walked in and Travis was on the bed masturbating 0.83

00:33:15.440 and I got really embarrassed. It was a picture of a little boy. Oh, five ish, five, six. I'm not a good 0.99

00:33:25.960 judge of age. He was dressed in underwear, like briefs. I was frozen there for a minute and I just

00:33:35.540 ran. I didn't stay. I felt nauseated, ran inside and threw up in the bathroom.

00:33:40.900 That's a clip from HLM, which is why there's music over the weird testimony, but yeah. So she tries

00:33:47.560 to condemn him as a pedophile before she gets started and had Spider-Man pajamas ordered to

00:33:53.000 the house. Like she was very specific. She's dangerous because she's not an idiot. I mean, 0.96

00:33:58.020 she's dumb, but she's not an idiot. I don't know what that means, but you know what I'm saying? 1.00

00:34:01.100 She's very cunning. She's not a criminal mastermind. What's that? I said, she's not a criminal 1.00

00:34:07.260 mastermind, but that doesn't mean she's, um, not smart. She's correct. She's creative. She's, 0.94

00:34:14.200 you know, cunning. She, she plans these things out. She had plenty of time to, to plan how she was going 0.52

00:34:20.620 to, um, lower him in the eyes of the jury. And, and you dig from the pedophile card deck,

00:34:27.020 that's about as low as you go. That was the worst. So then she tries to say that she had to give him

00:34:33.720 certain forms of sex because he was a Mormon and this is what he required of her. I'll let her tell 0.99

00:34:41.140 it. Uh, this is Sot 5. Sex is sex. There's just different ways to have sex. And it seemed like,

00:34:48.680 it seemed like Travis was kind of, um, I don't know how to put it. Um, but it just seemed like he

00:35:03.440 sort of had like the Bill Clinton version, whereas over here, it seemed like, you know, oral and 1.00

00:35:10.260 anal sex were also sex to me, but not for him. 0.99

00:35:17.640 So now she's Jody, the librarian, right? She's got her little glasses on. He made me do it this way. 0.99

00:35:23.380 And the other way that's pedophile, right? So she, this is the defense. And this is one of the reasons

00:35:28.540 why America was riveted. So transparent what she's doing to me anyway. And I think to the jurors also,

00:35:35.560 but you still got to do it. Uh, you know, you, you dealt the cards that you have, you got to play

00:35:40.320 them and, and you have a, a horrible defendant, but there's no other way to advance that ridiculous 0.94

00:35:47.120 self-defense theory. Well, is that true? I mean, if you had been her defense attorney, 0.87

00:35:51.180 what would you have done?

00:35:54.940 Not write a tell all book and get disbarred. We'll get to that.

00:35:58.540 Um, uh, what would I do? Probably what happened here? I would, um, it would be obvious painfully

00:36:04.680 to me that my client is guilty as they come. And I would say to that person, um, first of all,

00:36:11.720 there might be offering you life. Um, you might want to take that instead of risking the debt penalty,

00:36:16.760 try to persuade her that her chances are very low of prevailing. Um, she, the narcissist would say,

00:36:22.120 I'm not going to be convicted. So I'd go and I'd say, okay. And to myself professionally, I'd say

00:36:26.680 winning is defined by doing everything I can to achieve the best possible outcome for this client.

00:36:32.200 Whether they say guilty or not guilty is not in my control. And so testifying is her option.

00:36:37.420 She wants to testify. She testifies. In other words, yeah, I might lose this case. And you know

00:36:41.960 what? I'm fine with that. Hmm. This is the problem. I mean, basically you try to cut a deal

00:36:47.920 with a client like this because there's just no question that the jurors are going to find her

00:36:53.420 guilty. Um, Juan Martinez was the prosecution. And I, one thing I do remember is you did not like

00:37:00.560 him. You did not like the way he behaved. Listen, the main reason why I accepted your invitation

00:37:06.460 is because I get another crack at talking about his cross-examination. Okay. So let's set it up

00:37:12.940 before, before we play the soundbite of that. Um, he had two weeks to present his case. It's

00:37:19.040 kind of open and shut. What should he have done? What, what would you have preferred to see a

00:37:24.340 prosecutor do? Okay. Ready? Yeah. And I'm talking to the Murdoch, uh, prosecutors, you know,

00:37:31.060 everybody gives both Juan Martinez and those guys such accolades and they did good things. I'll give

00:37:36.620 them credit for that. I'm merely talking about cross-examination, which is an art form.

00:37:42.500 I have taught my students that you don't wing it. You carefully craft every single question that

00:37:50.060 you're going to ask, knowing that it could go this way or this way. And then you are ready with

00:37:54.420 the follow-up. Isn't the fact that on such and such a day, you said this and you boom, boom, boom,

00:37:59.080 boom, boom. And it's a lean filet mignon. You don't present a big fatty steak wandering around. Hey,

00:38:05.720 Mr. Martinez, your ego is not your amigo. You don't get up there and make it about you. You don't take

00:38:11.220 days. You don't, you know, try to grandstand like he did. I thought his cross-examination

00:38:18.440 was horrible. And people are going to say, oh, you're jealous, this and that. I'm not,

00:38:23.660 I don't care. I wish him well. I'm simply saying that it was a, uh, a D minus on the scale. And I'm

00:38:31.280 telling you this, don't go by the outcome. This case could have been won by, by rookie prosecutors.

00:38:36.300 I'm talking about how he did on cross both. He and the Murdoch prosecutors sucked in cross

00:38:42.680 examination. Yes. I've said it publicly. I know I agree with you. And now I have to tell you, 0.95

00:38:48.940 I listened to some of these friends of the Murdoch prosecutors on their little podcast and

00:38:52.500 they're like, oh, people just didn't get it. They just didn't get how brilliant that cross was.

00:38:56.480 It's like, no, people know how to do a proper cross examination and they could have, it would

00:39:02.920 have been over and done with. Had they done it properly? They let him go on. There was a chance

00:39:06.900 the jury could have bonded with the guy. They took unnecessary risks in that cross of Alex. I agree

00:39:12.000 with you. Uh, okay. So here's one, you don't take credit because the guy, either the guy, or in this

00:39:17.400 case, Jody looked bad. Oh, look at me. I made her look bad. She would have looked just as bad 1.00

00:39:22.920 without the opportunity to then explain, humanize, go on and on. There's no need for that. There's

00:39:30.520 no reason to take a risk on a single question. Good lawyers carefully craft everything. We think

00:39:38.700 about everything we're doing. These guys look like they were winging it and they were that's

00:39:43.200 unacceptable. And you stay in control the whole time. You're the one who's speaking that witness

00:39:47.480 is just there to say yes or no. That's it. You are the one who's telling the jury, the story,

00:39:51.000 you're really listening to the prosecutor with limited exceptions. When I know no matter what

00:39:57.260 they do or say they're hanging themselves. So every now and then I'll throw that in just

00:40:03.320 to switch it up because I know there's not a single answer that's going to score points

00:40:08.900 for them. Well, here's, let's let the audience get a flavor of Juan Martinez. Here is, uh, the

00:40:17.080 prosecutor, Juan trying to have Jody demonstrate Travis's alleged attack because she's claiming

00:40:25.140 I dropped his camera. Then he came for me. He chased me. That's why I had to kill him. Here's

00:40:30.820 just a little bit of that exchange. And then I'll play the feistier one.

00:40:33.640 Ma'am, if you would mind, stand up, go to the left and show me the posture of, uh, Mr. Alexander

00:40:42.740 immediately before he rushed you according to you. Um, as he was running... No, no, just

00:40:48.280 show me. That's what I'm asking you to do. Not talk. Show me. Show me the linebacker pose.

00:40:54.880 He got down and... Well, show me. Show me the linebacker pose. That's what I'm asking for you

00:40:59.080 to do. Okay. He went like that and he turned his head and grabbed my waist. Just like that,

00:41:04.180 correct? Pretty much. And he grabbed your waist, right? I can't say it's just like that, but that's

00:41:08.320 what I remember. Well, no, just, just, I want, without talking, just show me the pose.

00:41:14.440 He got down like that. Like that. All right, go ahead and have a seat then.

00:41:20.300 He's already annoying. Megan, let me add him. Okay. First of all, nobody likes a bully.

00:41:26.600 And I'm telling you, I've actually, during jury selection, excuse jurors, one woman I saw when I 0.53

00:41:34.000 was speaking, cause I was like, you know, I turned to this woman. I said, you know, you said you could

00:41:37.840 be fair to my client, but I'm really wondering, ma'am, I get a sense that, and I really questioned

00:41:43.360 her very firmly because I really wanted her out if she wasn't going to be on board with the plan

00:41:48.060 of being fair. There was a tear that fell down from her eye. And I realized in that moment, I asked her,

00:41:54.480 I go, is everything okay? She goes, I don't know. It's just your energy. Like, I feel like

00:41:58.880 you're, and I realized, oh my God, I'm too much for people at certain times. Similarly, what Juan

00:42:04.940 Martinez is doing is being so overly aggressive unnecessarily that that has to turn certain

00:42:11.240 jurors off. There's no reason to be that way in a case like this. That's the first criticism.

00:42:16.420 I've got more with what I just saw. Okay. There's more coming. Um, I'll play another soundbite and then

00:42:21.120 you can resume. Uh, there was this tense moment where she got after him for his style. You know,

00:42:27.040 it got to the point where she actually had to call him out. Here's a little bit of that on SOT7.

00:42:32.800 What factors influence your having a memory problem?

00:42:37.900 Um, usually when men like you are screaming at me or grilling me or someone like Travis doing the

00:42:42.500 same. So that affects your memory problems, right? It does. It makes my brain scramble.

00:42:46.180 So you're saying that it's the core, basically what you're saying is Mr. Martinez's fault that

00:42:52.540 you can't remember things that are going on. It's not your fault. I'm not saying that you're

00:42:57.260 saying that, isn't it? No, I'm not saying that. Is there something about a certain decibel of the

00:43:02.700 voice that creates problems? Decibel tone content, sort of a combination of those factors.

00:43:11.820 Oh, go ahead. God, it's so horrible. And the public doesn't understand because

00:43:18.960 they don't see great cross examinations when they're watching these high profile cases. I

00:43:23.880 haven't seen it recently. There's been some examples. There's some exceptions. None that

00:43:27.540 come to mind. Right. Johnny Depp, Johnny Depp's lawyer with, uh, what's that? Which one? Johnny Depp's

00:43:34.780 lawyer cross-examining Amber Heard. Very effective. Probably. I'm trying to remember.

00:43:41.440 I can't remember her name. She became a star. She's now an NBC contributor. But she did it exactly

00:43:46.040 the way we're discussing. It was textbook, Mark. It was, isn't this true? Isn't that true? And then

00:43:50.360 you did this and then this. Isn't that true, Ms. Heard? Your honor, please direct the witness to

00:43:54.900 answer my question and not, not to go on like this. You know, like she controlled the witness. 0.99

00:43:59.200 What's, what's her name, Steve? Camille Vasquez. Yeah. She was good. She was solid.

00:44:05.340 I agree. So two things. One in the first clip that you played, you're asking the defendant now

00:44:12.880 to give her version again, giving her another opportunity to then display for the jurors

00:44:20.580 why she's not guilty. I would never do that. I just make fun of it. And the second clip,

00:44:26.520 you look at him, he doesn't have those questions prepared. He's just winging it. That's what a rookie

00:44:32.400 lawyer does or someone who doesn't do cross-examination. It's not to say there's not

00:44:36.440 room for spontaneity, but I plan my spontaneity. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but that's

00:44:43.760 what I do. You sound like a great, like a great person to hang out with for a wife.

00:44:49.860 Not always. I'm talking about not in the bedroom, in the courtroom. Come on.

00:44:53.300 And on three. Okay. Let's talk about the fact that your friend Juan Martinez,

00:45:03.420 in addition to the defense lawyer, have both been disbarred since then. They've both lost their law

00:45:09.740 licenses. Yeah. Yeah. Different reasons. But can we back up a little bit? Because we left out one of

00:45:17.720 the biggest things in the trial. Well, yeah, I'm not done with the trial, but I do think it's interesting

00:45:22.060 that your friend lost his law license. And I think when people look at that cross-examination,

00:45:26.320 it's very interesting to know, quoting now the AP, that Martinez was accused later, this is why he

00:45:35.080 lost his law license, of leaking the identity of one of the Jody Arias jurors. He leaked the identity

00:45:42.500 to a blogger with whom he was having a sexual relationship, then lied to investigators about it.

00:45:48.800 That's what he was accused of. And of sexually harassing a bunch of female law clerks in his 1.00

00:45:55.680 office. He chose not to defend the charges and consented to disbarment. And what's happening?

00:46:02.220 What are you doing? It's a fog, Megan. Like Jody Arias, don't you remember? She was in a fog.

00:46:09.100 What? What? You don't think I bring props out for you? Come on. You got dry ice in your office?

00:46:16.460 It's happening. It's a little machine I gave to my son. It's like 13th birthday. But so appropriate,

00:46:24.360 really, when we're talking about the fog and how Jody Arias was in a fog. She didn't remember

00:46:29.780 anything. Don't you remember the famous fog? Come on. She was in a fog. The lawyer, too. All right.

00:46:36.980 Kill the fog. The lawyer, too, was in a fog as he was sexually harassing all the female law clerks to 1.00

00:46:42.860 the point where they were. They had to run. He was staring at the chest of some female employees

00:46:47.640 in the county prosecutor's office, looked them up and down as they walked away. Some female employees 1.00

00:46:51.200 would hide in the bathroom, duck into cubicles or engage in busy work to avoid encountering

00:46:55.580 Martinez. He got fired after 32 years as a prosecutor, then lost his law license. That's the man

00:47:01.020 I'm going to have to say, tip of the hat, your instincts were dead on. 1.00

00:47:05.300 What an unsubtle pig. You know, I read that to my wife. She's like, 1.00

00:47:08.720 ah, what a horrible. And I looked at it from her perspective. And and women don't like that, 1.00

00:47:15.500 you know, and what a horrible place to be, you know, where we're all day long. You have this guy

00:47:20.940 staring at you and he's not subtle. And it's just it's just horrible. You know,

00:47:25.340 it's creepy. Well, so you I mean, I think your instincts were dead on. You understood this is

00:47:30.100 not a good lawyer and this is not a good man. And you had a revolt in watching him that was

00:47:35.200 well placed. But the evidence was so strong against her, it didn't wind up hurting his case.

00:47:44.320 He did ultimately get a confession on the stand, which was rather helpful. I mean,

00:47:50.180 we knew that she killed him because she was claiming self-defense by that point. But here is the

00:47:53.860 moment of confession on the stand when she breaks down Sod 8. Would you agree that you're the person 0.68

00:48:02.600 who actually slit Mr. Alexander's throat from ear to ear? Yes.

00:48:14.720 Would you also agree that you're the individual that stabbed him in the upper torso?

00:48:23.860 Yes. And you're doing all of this, according to your version of events. You're doing this to this

00:48:36.600 individual after you have already shot him, right? Yes.

00:48:43.600 What do you make of that credit again? Megan, that was her whole theory. She was admitting that

00:48:52.940 she did the abhorrent acts for which she's accused. If anything, he could have artfully said, all right,

00:49:00.080 just so these jurors are crystal clear, the first stab that went into his body, you did that not to

00:49:06.280 strangers that you initially said, these two intruders, right? Then another jab and then

00:49:11.780 another jab. This one over here by the heart. That was you, not somebody else. And then he could

00:49:16.780 have gone on and on and on about every stab that she did. And then to really highlight the brutality,

00:49:23.080 especially since he's going for the death penalty after. So you really want to highlight it. The best

00:49:28.680 he had was you stabbed him in the torso. Yes. Yes. No, 27 times. And then you did this or whatever 0.99

00:49:36.000 order he wants. That was, you're giving him credit. And yeah, okay. He did that. But again,

00:49:42.100 it was, wasn't the most effective. He lost a huge opportunity.

00:49:46.280 That's a good point. Drive it home. And I found the medical examiner's testimony that I was looking

00:49:50.240 for earlier. Kevin Horn testified about the stab wounds and said, the slash wound to Travis's throat

00:49:57.200 was three to four inches deep and went to the spinal cord in the back of the neck, had two major

00:50:02.940 vessels that had been sliced. He would have lost a great deal of blood very quickly and then lost

00:50:08.860 consciousness within seconds and died a few minutes later. Uh, and then of course she shot him as well,

00:50:15.200 but he talked about the wounds to Travis's hands. That must've been before the fatal injury. So the guy

00:50:20.120 fought for his life. He must've been terrified. This person he trusted who was, you know, he was

00:50:25.260 undressed with had had this interlude with surprises him in this place. That's supposed to be,

00:50:31.580 you know, inviolate the shower, my God. Um, so you're right. And, and his failure to bring home

00:50:36.920 the brutality did come back to haunt him at the penalty phase. Yeah. I'm still actually thinking

00:50:43.460 of ways that I would have done this differently. I would have said, I'm sorry, Ms. Arias. I see that

00:50:47.680 you're crying. Do you need a moment? And by the way, Ms. Arias, were you crying? Stab number seven,

00:50:52.640 were tears running down your eyes? Then when you did this, were you crying then? Okay. Do you need

00:50:58.420 time? I'll ask the judge if you need a few minutes, but I'm not going to let her hide her face in that 0.99

00:51:03.240 tissue and put on that act. Ms. Arias, can you look at me? I'm asking you some questions. If you

00:51:07.940 need time, I'll give you some time. She's hiding her face. The jurors need to judge her credibility, 1.00

00:51:12.880 your honor, assuming the judge wouldn't allow me to, to, you know, control her that way. I'd go

00:51:17.260 sidebar and say, judge, they're judging. She's hiding her face. I want them to see her face. 0.85

00:51:21.160 She needs time. I'll give her time, but I'm not going to let her bury her face when I'm asking her

00:51:26.320 to talk about the most intimate of brutality that she committed. No way. That's a good point. Does

00:51:32.480 anyone have a scrunchie? Who's got a scrunchie? Let's get that hair back. No, you're right. That 1.00

00:51:38.820 was clearly a tactic. Well, the jury didn't buy it because after she'd been on the stand for,

00:51:46.040 they say, 18 days, 18 days between direct and cross-examination, many felt that was a tactic

00:51:51.840 by her defense lawyer to create a bond between Jody and the jury to where they could not

00:51:57.000 vote for death. Do you agree that was a strategy?

00:52:01.400 100%. And let me just say this. I just finished a federal trial. My client wanted to take the

00:52:06.640 witness stand. My direct was extremely long. Number one, I'm humanizing my client. Number two,

00:52:14.600 there was a lot to talk about, right? Number three, it is difficult when they don't know who

00:52:21.260 your client is. The prosecutors will always call them the defendant. I'm here to humanize my client.

00:52:26.600 And yes, in that case, they want to slaughter her. They want to kill her, right? The ultimate 0.99

00:52:31.120 sanction. So that serves a purpose. Kudos for the defense lawyer, not the prosecutor,

00:52:36.820 the defense lawyer. I don't care how long he takes. As long as it's productive and it's routine,

00:52:41.720 they've rehearsed it all. It's choreographed. She could look great on direct, long, long, long, 0.54

00:52:46.780 long. Cross, not the same. What do you mean? Cross needs to be tight. It needs to be planned out.

00:52:56.820 It shouldn't go for more than a day. And certainly within that day, I'd say a few hours,

00:53:02.700 you can make your points. That's it. Days? It's just a Juan Martinez show? This isn't about you,

00:53:10.360 dude. Stop making it about you. You don't want to prolong the relationship between this person

00:53:15.960 and the jurors any more so than the defense lawyer did on the direct. All right. So

00:53:20.160 the jury gets the case. Ultimately, the jury was read in court. Here's soundbite nine.

00:53:26.820 State of Arizona versus Jody Ann Arias. Verdict, count one. We, the jury, duly impaneled and sworn

00:53:33.200 in the above-intitled action upon our oaths do find the defendant as to count one first-degree murder

00:53:38.940 guilty. Five jurors find premeditated. Zero find felony murder. Seven find both premeditated and

00:53:49.380 felony. Signed, four person. Is this your true verdict? So say you want it all?

00:53:54.900 I mean, it wasn't a shock. She actually looks kind of surprised to hear the verdict.

00:54:02.800 It wasn't a shock to anybody. Don't credit her with having real emotion and equating whatever

00:54:08.100 she just did to how you and I, she's in a whole different area code psychologically. I don't know 1.00

00:54:13.320 what that was. I don't. Right. We don't. More acting. Well, then, then we moved on to the penalty

00:54:18.800 phase. Will she get life in prison or will she get the death penalty? And that is in Arizona is up to

00:54:25.900 the jury, uh, at least on the initial go round. And so the, the jury had to wrestle with that.

00:54:33.220 She got to say how she felt about the death penalty in an interview with Fox 10 Phoenix,

00:54:40.520 the week she was found guilty. Listen to this. Not 11. I believe death is the ultimate freedom. So

00:54:46.520 I'd rather just have my freedom soon. As soon as I can get it. So you're saying you actually prefer

00:54:52.220 getting the death penalty to being in prison for life. Yes. Then here she is.

00:54:58.920 Brilliant. Wait, wait, wait. Yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, no. Megan, come on. That was brilliant.

00:55:06.080 You like that. The ultimate in manipulation. That's what Nicholas Cruz should have done. I want

00:55:11.900 death, you know, for killing all those kids at Marjory Stoneman Douglas. Again, it's reverse 1.00

00:55:17.260 psychology. She doesn't want to die. She doesn't want to be a death row. She's going to be the, 0.68

00:55:21.840 the queen in, in, in prison. She wants to live out her life. And so she just does the twist. That's 1.00

00:55:28.860 the ultimate manipulation for that. I'm sure. Hmm. So she, she did it, um, with the jury as well. 0.80

00:55:37.680 A couple of sounds of addressing. We'll start with 12.

00:55:41.040 This is the worst mistake of my life. It's the worst thing I've ever done. It's the worst thing I ever

00:55:49.720 could have seen myself doing. In fact, I couldn't have seen myself doing it before that day. I

00:55:54.920 wouldn't even want to harm a spider. I'd gather them up in cups and put them outside to this day. I can

00:56:02.660 hardly believe I was capable of such violence, but I know that I was. And for that, I'm going to be

00:56:08.240 sorry for the rest of my life. Probably longer. Oh Lord. All right. Let me add on to that.

00:56:16.140 One, I'm offended for her making me feel guilty for killing spiders. Very offensive. Um, and number

00:56:21.780 two, come on. She's again, she's, I see how manipulative she is. I keep coming back to that 0.99

00:56:28.300 word. And she couldn't drum up any real tears either. It's like, if you really are unjustly convicted,

00:56:35.580 it's you, you just look and sound entirely different here. She is. Um, one more thing

00:56:40.380 bothers me. I got to get these things off. I'm sorry to keep interrupting, but like, if I don't,

00:56:43.540 I'm going to think about them later, please mistake. I can't stand on people called like

00:56:48.160 something as complex and abhorrent and as planned out. And as, you know, just gory as a mistake,

00:56:55.760 right? 27 stabs. Those were mistakes. Like, like Hitler calling the Holocaust, you know,

00:57:01.120 an inconvenience, you know, a minor blemish on my record, you know, like stop minimizing

00:57:06.080 things. It's not a mistake. Right. That's a good point. Like what, what was the mistake?

00:57:10.780 The three inch, you know, cutting of the carotid artery after you stabbed in 27 times, like the

00:57:15.800 number, number two through 26. Those were the, like in any event, um, now here she is asking

00:57:21.220 them for, uh, well, you'll listen, you'll hear 13. I've made many public statements that

00:57:28.140 I would prefer the death penalty to life in prison. Each time I said that though, I meant

00:57:34.200 it. I lacked perspective until very recently. I could not have imagined standing before you

00:57:40.060 all and asking you to give me life. To me, life in prison was the most unappealing outcome

00:57:47.620 I could possibly think of. I thought I'd rather die, but as I stand here now, I can't in good

00:57:55.020 conscience ask you to sentence me to death because of them. Asking for death is tantamount to suicide.

00:58:05.800 Either way, I'm going to spend the rest of my life in prison. It'll either be shortened or not.

00:58:11.280 She was pointing to her parents when she said because of them. So a change of heart, Mark.

00:58:19.220 Yeah. How convenient. I just, that's just so silly. I don't even have anything to say. I think

00:58:24.740 I've said it already. Manipulate. This person is a household name. I mean, think about that. This

00:58:28.320 woman is a household and most people in America know who Jodi Arias is because the media took to 1.00

00:58:33.440 this case like mods to a flame. She was the star. She's a sociopath. You can see, it's fascinating to 0.99

00:58:39.620 see the mind in, you know, working, like doing its manipulation. And you know what? It worked

00:58:46.540 because the jury ultimately did not sentence her to death. They were, it was a hung jury. And then

00:58:51.860 they brought in another jury to try to decide. And they too could not decide on giving her death and

00:58:58.740 without a unanimous vote for it, you don't get it. And that's why she got life in prison without the 0.95

00:59:03.640 possibility of parole where she is right now. What we don't know is the split, right? Was it one

00:59:09.740 lone juror? Was it a few? Likely it was a few because, you know, there was a lot of mitigators.

00:59:15.600 I didn't see any of that testimony, but you know, the lack of priors, um, I don't want to start naming

00:59:23.200 them because it'll look like I'm being sympathetic, but whatever the defense said, there was stuff to

00:59:27.540 work with here. You know, the crime was especially heinous, atrocious, and cruel and cold calculated

00:59:33.160 and very premeditated. This, the state had that going for them, you know, everything else, you

00:59:39.100 know, the mitigators, it was probably a couple of people said, no, she should get life instead. And 1.00

00:59:43.500 then that's it. They only needed a few there. I mean, is it true that generally they don't like

00:59:48.720 to give you the death penalty if it's just one murder, as opposed to a serial killer or like the

00:59:55.680 guy who takes out his family, you know, something like that? There's that. And statistically,

00:59:59.960 you know, how many women actually get the death penalty, you know, it's very rare. And don't you 1.00

01:00:06.600 tell me that looks don't matter and how she acts. People consider that. They just do.

01:00:14.560 So we talked about the fact that the prosecutor is now disbarred and you mentioned it in passing.

01:00:18.700 Her lawyer too is now disbarred. What did he do?

01:00:22.500 This bothers me. Another reason why I was, I was looking forward to doing this. This really bothers me.

01:00:28.200 So he writes a book, a tell all and included in that book are intimate details that she shared with

01:00:35.800 him while he was representing her. He then writes this book and, you know, she's objecting to it

01:00:43.100 naturally. And apparently they knew about it. The bar did and said, listen, you're either going to,

01:00:50.140 for putting this out there, you're either, you have two options. One will suspend you for four years,

01:00:54.560 but you cannot then put this book out there. Or you can lose your law license forever, give it up.

01:01:02.900 And then, you know, obviously then you'll be free to publish that book. He chose option number two.

01:01:07.520 And I'm not going to out anybody, my wife, who said, good for him for putting that out there.

01:01:12.380 Because I'm sure many people feel that way. And I was so upset about that. Because yeah,

01:01:18.240 do I care that Jody Arias' thoughts are put out there? No, because I don't like Jody Arias. But

01:01:23.720 it's so much bigger than that. He is eroding the attorney-client privilege where now either my

01:01:29.720 clients or other future clients feel like, wait, is this going to be the lawyer who liked that guy,

01:01:35.060 that Nimrod? He's going to put it out there in some book to capitalize. And then that doesn't give

01:01:40.120 any confidence when anybody goes to speak to an attorney. I'm really bothered by it.

01:01:44.420 Hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing that the two of the main cast characters in this cast wound up

01:01:50.280 disbarred. And the third, the true star is behind bars for the rest of her life without the possibility 0.88

01:01:55.680 of parole. There have been some reports that behind bars, she's in a medium security prison.

01:02:02.420 She's been making friends and lovers and tattooing her name on her jail cell mates. 1.00

01:02:11.600 Lifetime is actually just now, 10 years later, coming out with a docudrama about Jody Arias and

01:02:19.160 the case and gets into some of that, like her life in jail. We managed to pull a clip,

01:02:23.640 Mark Iglarch, for the entertainment of the audience. Here's a bit.

01:02:27.020 A lifetime original movie ripped from the headlines.

01:02:32.240 Jody Arias killed Travis Alexander. Jody Arias. Jody. Jody. Jody. Jody Arias. 0.99

01:02:37.900 I'm Jody. You know her name. It's worth doing whatever it takes to gain my freedom.

01:02:43.580 You're the worst. We do what we have to do. But not this story.

01:02:47.760 When you get out, maybe you can help me get the word out about my innocence.

01:02:50.900 Sure, whatever you need. I thank God for you. I knew you came into my life for a reason.

01:02:55.560 Based on a true story. There is no question. Jody killed Travis Alexander.

01:03:01.000 This January. Everything you said was a lie. I was worried that if I told you what really happened,

01:03:05.480 I'd lose you. It's in the past now and I love you. I can't defend you.

01:03:11.800 Did you believe she was innocent? Yes. Was she innocent? Hell no.

01:03:16.300 I feel like you betrayed me.

01:03:20.780 I will never forgive you.

01:03:22.440 Bad Behind Bars. Jody Arias.

01:03:25.560 Bad Behind Bars. She's manipulating half the jail. 1.00

01:03:31.220 Social media posts.

01:03:33.120 All sorts of bad stuff.

01:03:35.480 Good casting.

01:03:36.700 I mean, you know, I was like, wait, that looks like her.

01:03:39.980 What happens in a medium security prison?

01:03:42.480 How are you able to make friends and, you know,

01:03:45.020 tattoo one another and do social media?

01:03:47.080 Yeah, she's probably living a pretty damn good life. 0.88

01:03:50.960 Number one, medium security. She wasn't high.

01:03:53.040 They they brought her down to medium. 0.99

01:03:54.380 So that's much better for her. Orange is the new black, you know. 0.97

01:03:57.920 And then secondly, she didn't kill any children.

01:04:01.520 You know, in the pecking order, she killed a man that many think might have done something bad to her.

01:04:07.420 At least that was her story. So in prison, you know, she's at the top of the pecking order. 0.98

01:04:12.280 And with her manipulation and beauty, she's probably living large. 1.00

01:04:17.200 And when I say beauty, I use that in quotations.

01:04:18.980 I'm talking about objectively to others.

01:04:21.640 I know she's using that for her own benefit.

01:04:24.860 Is it is is it possible to have a co-ed prison?

01:04:28.260 Because this is where I get confused.

01:04:30.840 They said she met somebody named Donovan Baring while serving time.

01:04:36.860 Donovan was serving time for accessory to arson in the Maricopa County Jail,

01:04:41.660 where they were cellmates for six months.

01:04:44.020 Oh, they're both girls. OK. 0.96

01:04:45.260 Then this duo became really close and stayed in touch.

01:04:48.780 Afterward, Donovan, who I guess is a girl and Jody, they stayed tight.

01:04:52.060 Then they were at Estrella, another prison where this other gal, Tracy, met Donovan for the first time.

01:04:59.220 They got romantically involved.

01:05:01.080 They say by their own admission, Jody used her good looks and sexuality to get what she wanted 1.00

01:05:05.100 and inserted herself into their union as well. 0.97

01:05:08.460 Although they never engaged in actual sex acts together,

01:05:11.520 she once delivered a striptease with Tracy for Donovan 1.00

01:05:15.200 and then often refused to leave their cell when they wanted alone time together

01:05:19.860 from getting them to manage her social media accounts.

01:05:22.900 Again, why does she have them? 1.00

01:05:24.320 To ultimately officiating their wedding ceremony.

01:05:27.680 She did it all for the couple, quoting from thecinemaholic.com.

01:05:34.800 So all of this is documented.

01:05:36.000 I mean, on and on it goes.

01:05:37.760 Mark, once a master manipulator, always a master manipulator.

01:05:41.440 That's what she does. 1.00

01:05:42.420 And she has nothing but time on her hands.

01:05:44.980 So she's playing all those games.

01:05:46.120 And I, too, by the way, found it confusing at first.

01:05:48.060 I'm like, Donovan?

01:05:49.240 She with a dude? 0.98

01:05:50.000 How'd that happen?

01:05:50.880 No, Donovan's a female. 1.00

01:05:52.040 And then you play it along and you figure out what happened.

01:05:54.120 I think as an aside, I read she's got something going on with a guy on the outside.

01:05:59.080 And that's easy to do because there's nut jobs out there sending letters, 1.00

01:06:04.080 wanting to be with her, phone privileges, right?

01:06:07.340 And then eventually she's looking to get married to get the conjugal visits. 1.00

01:06:11.700 That's all going to happen.

01:06:12.460 We saw that with Lyle and the other Menendez.

01:06:15.440 That's what they do.

01:06:16.200 So it just goes to show you, though, the media is still obsessed with this case.

01:06:19.740 I mean, here we are 10 years later.

01:06:20.940 You don't always do a 10-year retrospective on every case.

01:06:23.200 But I remember covering this all the time that America was into it and wanted more,

01:06:28.700 more, more, more, more.

01:06:29.440 And here we are 10 years later.

01:06:30.520 And she's still providing material from behind bars. 1.00

01:06:34.440 So what's our takeaway?

01:06:36.320 When you look back and you say, OK, what lessons can be learned from this case?

01:06:40.220 Anything come to mind?

01:06:42.540 OK, so number one, you never really know anyone.

01:06:45.920 Do not judge someone based upon how they look.

01:06:48.380 And even when you think that you're a good judge of character, you never know.

01:06:53.200 You've got to look at the evidence.

01:06:55.020 So once you get the evidence, that speaks volumes.

01:06:58.260 Don't judge somebody based upon their demeanor, what they say and how they look,

01:07:02.320 which coincidentally is exactly what courts are about.

01:07:06.100 And that's why they get it wrong all the time.

01:07:07.600 But, you know, the court of public opinion, wait, listen to all the evidence,

01:07:12.900 and then you can decide.

01:07:14.660 But we don't do that.

01:07:15.780 The second takeaway I got is, you know, I can't say enough about this prosecutor.

01:07:20.980 Again, he won the case.

01:07:22.940 Good for him.

01:07:23.720 And by winning, I mean he got the guilty verdict that anyone would have gotten.

01:07:26.820 But his cross-examination to this day still was horrible.

01:07:31.140 I don't even want to put it in the same category as the Murdoch prosecutor.

01:07:35.440 His was not great, but Martinez's was to me offensive, you know, that he took a case that

01:07:43.120 was a slam dunk and just took days and days and days to do this horrible badgering bullying

01:07:48.760 cross.

01:07:49.660 So prosecutors beware.

01:07:51.120 I'm available.

01:07:51.780 You want to reach out to me?

01:07:52.720 We'll make arrangements to make sure that in a very important case that you prepare and

01:07:57.700 all the questions are right there and you've thought them out.

01:08:00.480 That's what matters.

01:08:02.200 You've got to prepare.

01:08:03.080 Those are two thoughts off the top.

01:08:05.200 You know, that rule is that the jury is supposed to like you more than the defendant.

01:08:09.400 You know, that's your goal when you're examining somebody that they will like you, the lawyer

01:08:13.660 more than the person.

01:08:14.680 And that the way to get there is not usually to berate them, to shout at them, to telegraph

01:08:22.320 with every question that you have nothing but dripping disdain for them.

01:08:26.140 They know that.

01:08:27.100 They know that if you're the prosecutor.

01:08:28.380 This is going to be deep and you're going to say it's flaky and hokey, but I think first

01:08:33.160 for you to be liked by a jury or anyone, you've got to thoroughly and unconditionally like

01:08:39.440 yourself.

01:08:39.980 And I don't know that Juan Martinez did.

01:08:41.500 Well, it's interesting that he did turn out to be a bad guy.

01:08:45.420 You know, he did such a bad job and he wasn't likable in there.

01:08:48.800 And it's just always interesting when like the outward persona winds up matching with

01:08:53.920 what's going on behind closed doors.

01:08:55.520 It's sort of it.

01:08:56.260 It is an affirmation that maybe you can sometimes trust your instincts.

01:09:00.100 I don't believe you can't ever get ever know somebody.

01:09:03.040 My God, Doug, we need to talk.

01:09:05.940 I have to wait to see the evidence.

01:09:06.840 I, I love Doug too, but I love what Doug has shown me Doug to be.

01:09:12.660 Doug's got stuff inside of Doug and so do you.

01:09:14.980 And so do I.

01:09:15.640 That's we've never let out, not necessarily consciously, but sometimes subconsciously.

01:09:19.920 So again, all we're seeing, and I adore my wife.

01:09:23.540 I love her, but I love what I know about her.

01:09:28.200 I, there's stuff I don't know about her and I love her for that too.

01:09:30.980 And I love her unconditionally.

01:09:31.900 But again, all we know is what we know that turn back on the fog, the fog, the fog needs

01:09:38.600 to come back.

01:09:41.200 Mark Eiglarsh.

01:09:43.200 It's always a pleasure, my friend.

01:09:45.220 Thank you.

01:09:46.520 Bye.

01:09:47.140 Thank you, Megan.

01:09:49.040 I love having Mark Eiglarsh on.

01:09:51.420 He is one of a kind.

01:09:52.740 I hope you enjoyed revisiting the Jodi Arias case with us tomorrow.

01:09:56.420 We bring you the woman who made it her mission to take down former subway spokesperson and 1.00

01:10:03.360 pedophile, Jared Fogle.

01:10:06.120 I am telling you, listen to this show.

01:10:10.460 I have not been able to stop thinking about this episode.

01:10:14.440 You will feel the same.

01:10:15.940 I would love to correspond with you over what you hear.

01:10:19.040 Listen to it.

01:10:19.880 Send me an email.

01:10:20.780 You can email me at Megan at MeganKelley.com.

01:10:25.880 Megan's with a Y. 0.96

01:10:27.140 Don't miss this show.

01:10:28.980 Just trust me.

01:10:30.020 It's an unbelievable and disturbing story.

01:10:32.560 And the woman who is my guest was at the center of it all.

01:10:36.760 It's incredible.

01:10:37.800 See you then.

01:10:41.960 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

01:10:44.220 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:10:50.780 Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.

The Megyn Kelly Show - June 13, 2023

Jodi Arias Trial That Captivated America： A Megyn Kelly Show True Crime Special ｜ Ep. 571

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