Jodi Arias Trial That Captivated America： A Megyn Kelly Show True Crime Special ｜ Ep. 571
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 11 minutes
Words per Minute
178.23004
Summary
This month marks 15 years since Travis Alexander was viciously murdered by his ex-girlfriend Jodi Arias. We revisit the case with criminal defense attorney and longtime Kelly s Court contributor Mark Eiglarsh. We ll take a look back at the events leading up to Travis s murder, what Jodi s life is like in prison today, and Mark will dissect the defense and prosecution in a way that only you can.
Transcript
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Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.
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Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. All this week we are bringing
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you our hot crime summer shows. Today, a deep dive into the Jody Arias case. This month marks
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15 years since Travis Alexander was viciously murdered by his ex-girlfriend Jody Arias.
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We revisit the case with criminal defense attorney and longtime Kelly's Court contributor Mark
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Eiglarsh. We'll take a look back at the events leading up to Travis's murder, what Jody's
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life is like in prison today, and Mark will dissect the defense and prosecution in a way
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that only Mark can. I'm going to kick it off with a little walk down memory lane because
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you used to come on Kelly's Court back then as now. This one doesn't involve you. This
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Kelly's Court doesn't involve you, but it's a scene setter. Now we're 10 years post-verdict
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right now. Here's a little flashback to I was on the air when we got the guilty verdict
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and covered it with the court then, which was Mercedes Colwyn that day and Jonas Bilboer.
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Look at this sweet delivery. She's so concerned about their happiness and their peace now. Listen.
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I hope that now that a verdict has been rendered that they're able to find peace,
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some sense of peace. That's great. And the Oscar goes to, because this is a woman who stabbed him 27
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times in the heart as well, then shot him and look at the bloody sink. I'm not to be sensationalist,
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but prosecutors say the man was standing at the sink watching himself get stabbed to death,
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watching himself get murdered and bleed out over, over the sink. Oh, but Mercedes,
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she's so concerned about the family's peace. Give me a break. Okay. A very pregnant Megan Kelly
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in that clip, but that gets to it, right? I mean, the thing, because I've been asking myself, Mark,
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what is it about the Jodi Arias case that kept people so riveted? And in part, it's this mousy
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little woman who committed one of the most heinous murders that ever came before the national eye.
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You left out one thing, which is obvious, and maybe you intentionally did it, but
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Americans like pretty packages. Okay. If she wasn't pretty, and I put that in quotations,
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I mean, it's not how I feel, but there is some type of objective, you know, in Hollywood,
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what people look for, people found that she was attractive. And if she wasn't, and she looked
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differently, I don't know if people would have been as interested. So let's, let's bring that out.
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That's, that's gotta be something that you concede, right?
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Right. And the sex, I mean, it was like an R rated trial. It was like Cinemax back in the day.
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Oh yeah. No, there was a lot of that. Yes. And, and she really threw punches. I mean,
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she really, you know, dead man can't tell tales. He was dead. She was free to say whatever the hell
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she wanted. So whether it be, you know, allegations of him being involved in kiddie porn, which he can't
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defend or, or, or him wanting to do, which really was documented because you heard those horrible
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audio tapes of him, you know, some of the things he would do to her, which weren't meant for public
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viewing. It was just horrible. All right. So let's start, let's start at the beginning.
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These two meet in 2008, I think it was 2008 at a business convention and 2006, sorry to September.
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These two meet in September, 2006 at a work conference in Las Vegas, Nevada, Jody Arias and
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Travis Alexander. And then they start dating on a few months after that, as far as I can tell, Mark,
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they were only dating for like four months, but then continue to sleep with each other.
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Yeah. It sounds like it became very physical, very quickly. And, you know, she's the manipulative
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type, right? So I can't imagine this was pure love. I think this was lust. I think this was her,
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you know, playing the angles, looking to manipulate him. And she jumped all in real quick.
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Did we have any evidence that prior to that relationship, because I think she was like
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28, he was a couple of years older than that, that she was some sort of a psycho that she had,
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you know, problems with other partners in turning into a stalker or any other criminal history.
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I don't remember hearing anything like that. I heard little stories, but, you know, everybody
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comes out of the woodwork on high profile cases, nothing that I attributed as credible and believable.
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So he was a Mormon and she wasn't until after she met him, right?
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Right, right. She became a drive-through Mormon, you know, all of a sudden I'll convert. I'm sure that
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was, you know, again, to somehow take one step further into his good graces.
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So they, they, they meet, uh, yeah, here she is getting her, you know, I don't know. Is it a
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baptism into the Mormon face? I'm not exactly sure how we would refer to this, but they date from
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February of 2007 to June, 2007. And then they break up and maintain a physical relationship.
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One year later, one year later, she appears to stage a burglary at her grandparents' house.
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This would become important because it was one week before the murder. And what happened in that
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burglary? Yeah. Next level stuff. She's thinking, okay, they stole a gun from my grandparents. So that
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gun's out there in the criminal world. So that's the gun. However, she'd like to use to potentially,
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execute her boy. This is relevant because she would later claim when she was on trial,
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a bunch of different things, intruders, accident, self-defense. And if she intentionally staged a
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burglary at her parent, her grandparents' house a week before the murder, then it's very clearly a
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premeditated act. Absolutely. The best she's got is, well, I brought it with me for protection. I was
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going on the road, whatever. I didn't mean to kill him. I had it with me. It doesn't necessarily mean
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she wanted to kill him, but it's strong evidence of it. But I got to go back. There's something
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that's bothering me and it'll bother me tonight, Megan. I had brought out that she has a pretty
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shell to many people. Did you concede that? Is she what you would call attractive? And I'm not
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talking about her soul. I'm just saying, don't you think that that played a role in why people cared
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so much? Why the media? Oh, sure. Yeah. If you have an attractive defendant or victim. I mean,
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I think she was prettier when things started. And then when she took the stand, when she was at
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trial, she tried to make herself look very plain, Janie mousy, you know, but the blonde and, you know,
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the naked pictures, obviously she's got a very good body. All those things play into, oh, what's
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happening there? I do want that kind of a person. Right. All right. I got what I needed. You can move
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along. I got it. I just needed to know that. Okay. So the date of that burglary was May 28th,
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2008, June 2nd, 2008, which is now two days before the murder. She rented a vehicle from budget rent-a-car
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in Redding, California. And then on June 4th, 2008, Travis Alexander was killed in Mesa, Arizona.
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So, I mean, to me, this does all look like premeditation. She looks like a jilted lover who
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became a stalker, who became obsessed with him. We're told that in, I think, April, right before
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the fake burglary at her grandparents' house, he was going to go with her on some trip.
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Cancun. Everybody wants to go to Cancun, baby. And then he, she thought she was in the money. She was
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going to go with him. It's going to be romantic. He's going to really spend the dough on me. He's
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going to, he's going to, it's going to be romantic. And he picked another girl. That was it.
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And that really can be the catalyst for a lunatic. Like you never know what's going to set
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some crazy stalker off. Sure. To the point of, you know, disappoint any normal gal who has strong
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feelings for someone for whatever reason. But when you take someone who's, you know, got 51 cards and
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isn't all there, that can really amp it up. Yes. All right. So that's as near as we can tell,
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like one of the last final acts he does that gets in her head somehow, but they had been on again,
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off again with the sex after breakup. So, you know, who knows how this exactly files in June 4th, 2008.
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That's the day of the murder. Uh, and we'll get to what happened that day, but
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weirdly his body was not found for another five days. Why do we know why that was? Like,
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did he not have a job? Did he not have friends? How do you sit in your, you know, how is it that
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a body's five days in the apartment without anybody noticing? Yeah, it was like that. I'm
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trying to think of the specifics, but they, he was supposed to be somewhere and then they checked
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in on him. I think a friend did finally, he wasn't there, but yeah, I don't think he had any place
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that he had to be. He didn't have roommates. He didn't have nosy, you know, uh, parents coming
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around. So yeah, it just happened. Wow. All right. So the day of the murder, June 4th,
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what happened? She, she goes over there and what happened? Well, I don't know. Meaning,
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you know, we have what was alleged by the prosecution and the jury found her guilty. You never
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really know exactly what took place. Um, but what it looked like was, um, she had a plan to execute
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him and that's exactly what happened. She tried to defend with, he was attacking me and that was
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malarkey. Initially though, I think she was on inside edition and told a few people I wasn't there.
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I was framed like the Mona Lisa. I had nothing to do with it. And then when the evidence comes out,
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like most of my clients do, they go, Oh wait, you got that evidence. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I was
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there, but that's what happened. So initially, you know, the murder happens on June 4th. She leaves.
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We, we know, I mean, she winds up confessing on the stand. We know she did this crime now. Um,
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but she left the crime scene. No one's finds Travis until his friends realize like he's not showing up
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at events, et cetera. And they go to his house. They, the friends find his body in a crumpled heap
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in his shower, an incredibly bloody crime scene and called nine one one. Here's a bit of that
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Hello. Hi. So what's going on? He's, uh, he, he's dead. He's in his bedroom in the shower. Okay. How did this
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happen? Do you have any idea? No, we have no idea. Everyone's been wondering about him for a few days.
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She said that there was blood. So is it coming from his head? Did he cut his head? No, it's all over the place.
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Hmm. And right away, Mark, the friends suspected her. They, they described her to the authorities as,
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as a potential stalker. And that's what Travis had been saying about her, but they did have sex that
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day. Right. I mean, like it appears that they had hours and hours of some sort of sexual interlude
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prior to the murder. That's what's so unusual. Listen, you know, this guy clearly was a guy with
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strong emotions, which is the nicest thing I can say about him in terms of that. And, you know,
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they went at it. And my guess is there were some discussions. Maybe that was her way of trying to
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convince him to pick her and replace the gal that he did select for Cancun to go. I don't know,
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but something happened and she snapped. If, if she didn't plan on doing this anyway, no matter what.
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Cause you have hours and we know this because they found a camera that the two had been taking
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pictures of the sexual acts. There's pictures of her posing totally nude for the camera. I mean,
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very consensually does not look like a forced situation on either end. So for sure. And it
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looks like it went on for hours. What do you make of that? In other words, I want to know what you
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think there. Why are they having sex? The next minute she's executing him in a horrible, horrible,
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tragic way, which we're going to get to. But why do you think, what's the sex about? What do you
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think? I think it was like a goodbye gift from her to him though. He didn't realize that's what it
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was. I think he thought it was just genuine, a genuine hookup. And I think she had this whole
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thing planned. She went there to murder him and this was her farewell, you know, send off to the
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guy. I do. That's why she's a sick effort. And so I think she had the whole thing planned out. This
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was, there's no other reason. Okay. That is just cold as ice, baby. Wow. That's her. That's what's
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interesting about her. I mean, from a, you know, I never thought about that. Like why? In fact,
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in my mind, I couldn't wrap my head around that theory. And so I then thought, okay, she's got it
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just in case whatever. And then things go awry and then she kills him either second degree or she
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just said, okay, it's part of my plan that I'm now going to implement. And she had time to think about
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it when she's there and she does it. But I don't know, man, you think she knew she was going to
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kill him prior to having sex with him? Yes, I do. I think the whole thing was planned out in great
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detail, but she's a bad murderer. I mean, she's, she was effective at committing the murder, but
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very bad at covering up her tracks. And she should have spent more, more time in the planning and the
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lying phase because she turned out to be a disaster at that. Now she very shortly thereafter gets
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arrested. The friends are like, it was, it was Jodi Arias. She's a stalker. Meanwhile, the day after
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the murder, she went and saw another love interest, some guy named Ryan Burns, a former coworker of her,
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of his, of hers in Utah. That guy, I think he also took the stand. It's like, that's how cold she is,
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Mark. Like she now at this point, there's no doubt she committed this brutal murder the day before she
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goes off to see another lover. Oh, no problem. I mean, like, yeah. Consistent with what you were
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saying, like to be able to have sex with, with, with this guy before she, she kills him, you know,
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there's Travis, all right, he's dead. She, she seems to just manipulate. And this is also what I know
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after the fact I'm jumping ahead of how she manipulates everybody in prison and stuff like
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that. But that seems to be her MO. I don't know that type of person, but someone who,
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who can't have an honest relationship and it's all about manipulation. So she probably had numerous
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fellas in her life, including the guy you just mentioned where, okay, onto him. What do I need
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from him? Let me manipulate him to get it. And they're, they tend to be narcissistic personalities,
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right? Who it's all about them. You only matter to the extent you reflect off of them. You cannot
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leave them. You certainly cannot dump them the way Travis did with Jody. Um, and that's why you
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can't process it as a normal person because we normal people don't react that way when they get
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dumped. It's sad, but we don't kill anybody. So she goes to see Ryan. Let me tell you this,
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that type of person gets very misunderstood because the average juror who's arguably like you and me,
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you know, who's got sensibilities, uh, the right moral compass, who goes to work every day,
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kids, family, normal, they come in and they're trying to analyze the actions of some of these
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people. And a lot of times you're like, well, wait, that doesn't make sense. I wouldn't do that.
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There's no way that happened. I, I couldn't have done that. Even with the Murdoch trial to this day,
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I know he killed his wife and kid and OJ killed. You know, it's hard for me to actually see it
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because it's so foreign to me and what I would do and what the average juror can wrap their heads
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around. Well, that plays into the brutality of the crime because you, you'd look at this beautiful,
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tiny woman and you do not think she would be capable of this. You know, you see like two big
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muscly men with the tats in the prison in their background. And you think, Oh, okay.
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But teardrops from the eye. Yeah. Yeah. You see Jodi Arias. You think, Nope, because
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the level of violence that went down at this crime scene was unbelievable.
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27 stab wounds, a slit throat and a gunshot to his face. And the medical examiner testified that the,
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the actual like slicing was extremely deep, three to four inches deep, uh, into his neck, trying to find
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the exact, um, the description of it, but it was absolutely merciless. She, she nearly decapitated him
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while he was in that shower. She clearly went in there while he was showering and nearly decapitated
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him, stabbed him 27 times. And then the medical examiner said after that shot him in the face. So,
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I mean, the level of anger behind that Mark speaks to what, I mean, I don't know. What do we,
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what do we glean from the level of violence? It goes back to what I keep trying to do in my head,
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maybe as a defense lawyer, as a compassionate soul to believe that something went down before
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that happened, that he said something that set her off. I find it hard to believe, although I'm not
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relating to this type of person that she, and this is probably what she did, that she had the whole
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plan. And this was, as you say, her goodbye love session. And then I'm going to get them in the
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shower. And she did. It just seems more consistent with someone who was set off by some words or
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action. Okay. But how can that be? Because we've seen the crime photos and, and among the photos that
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they found on the camera, which she left behind is there are photos of Travis in that shower.
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And it appears to be after the lovemaking, you know, he's in the shower, he's not wearing his
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clothing. And that's of course, we know where he was killed and he's okay. There are photos of him
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in the shower. He's okay. So you don't have a fight. I mean, like he, an errant word from the shower
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as she was photographing him naked after their lovemaking. That doesn't make sense. My theory makes
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much more sense. No, it might. I, again, I'm listen, I'm not defending this woman at all.
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I'm just saying as a human, I'm just opening up and telling you how it's still hard for me to wrap
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my head around what she did. It's so challenging. And it's hard to understand how she, this life
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thin little thing could, could kill him, could kill a man. He wasn't overly large, but he was bigger
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than she was. And how do you stab a man? 27. I mean, he was in the shower, I guess he's vulnerable
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and he's not expecting it. But I mean, if that, if that, you know, slice across the neck was number
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one, then that would have been the end of it. And it probably, and it probably wasn't. I think
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the medical examiner said that those defensive wounds on his hands likely came first, which would
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make sense. She's, he's caught off guard. He goes like this. She continues to stab. Um, but you just
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said it, he's off guard. He doesn't expect it. He's vulnerable. He's got nothing to defend
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himself except the bar. So, you know, what do you do? She, she, she knew what she was doing
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and she's passionate and aggressive and, and, and wanted it done.
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And then to shoot him after the fact is that Emmy said that he didn't see a brain hemorrhage
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from the bullet in Travis's head. And he said there would be if, if the bullet had gone in there
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while he was alive and his blood was pumping. So she shot him. She just made sure, you know,
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he was a hundred percent dead. She wanted this guy dead. She was very angry with him,
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which again suggests that I think my theory, you know, she was angry. She was dumped. She was angry.
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She wasn't going to Cancun. You don't dump somebody who's a narcissistic sociopath like Jody Arias.
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And the whole thing was a setup. That's, you know, that seems to be what the evidence suggests.
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I agree. I just, I just cannot relate. It's going to take me some time to process probably
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tonight as I'm laying down, writing my gratefuls. Wait a second. She had sex with him as a goodbye.
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Megan said that. And I trust Megan. I believe her. And then executes him in the most violent manner.
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In other words, after stab number 16, that apparently wasn't enough for her. You know,
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it required another few jabs right now. We're at 21, 22, still not enough. I need about six more.
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And then I'm going to slash his throat and shoot him. You really do have to think about what she
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actually did to appreciate how abhorrent this was. My God. And then, and then leave his crumpled
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dead body in the shower. Like he was trash. Um, she did get arrested a month and a couple of days
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after the act. Uh, then more bizarre behavior came out. I'll get to the interrogation room,
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but she gave an interview to inside edition. Well, Mark's number one advice to all of his
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clients. Do not talk. Shut up. Let me do the talking. If there's going to be any talking,
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she talked to the fish who kept his mouth shut, never got caught. Right. That's right. Um,
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that's right. And, and, and I'm not saying that certain interviews aren't beneficial. We I've done it
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many cases, but that's after, you know, what the evidence is, you know, the parameters, you know,
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how you can and can't get hurt. What she did was just reckless. So she gives an interview to
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inside edition, which actually makes some sense knowing her in the way we do. She did. She,
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she was a narcissist. She wanted to be a star. She cared about how she looked, how people were
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perceiving her. Um, I think she was seeing an opportunity to like see her name in lights as
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opposed to just like, Oh my God, keep yourself out of bars. Um, here is a bit of what she told
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inside edition. This is well before the trial after she'd just been placed in jail. Did you kill
00:22:12.120
Travis Alexander? I absolutely did not kill Travis Alexander. I had nothing to do with his murder. I
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didn't harm him in any way. I witnessed, um, Travis being attacked by two other individuals.
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Who? I don't know who they were. I couldn't pick them out in a police lineup. So what happened?
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Um, they came into his home and attacked us both. You did not shoot Travis. No, I've never even shot
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a real gun. You did not stab him 27 times. That's, that's heinous. Or slit his throat from ear to ear.
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I can't imagine slitting anyone's throat. No jury is going to convict me. Why not? Because I'm
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innocent and you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me. Oh man. Oh man. We could,
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we could have, we could do an hour just on that. There is so much there. So wait, all right. So
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let me just go. First of all, the one thing she asked for was for makeup prior to her mug shot.
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That's what she's thinking about. Right. Right. I'm not thinking about a life of, of having to never
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take a shower ever again in a, in a jail or prison because you know, I'm too pretty. She's worried
00:23:23.020
about her mug shot. She needs to, to mix. There we go. It is a nice mug shot. So it goes to your point
00:23:30.060
how she's so narcissistic. She wants the world to love her and, and believe that she's, you know,
00:23:35.020
Snow White, but look at the way she acted. This is why you never know anyone. You just know how
00:23:42.080
they want you to see them because she looks believable. If you know nothing about the facts
00:23:48.040
of the case and you look at, you go, yeah, how could she have done that? So beware folks. You never
00:23:53.500
really. I watched that interview, Mark. And all I can think of is Phil Houston, the human lie detector,
00:24:00.200
CIA guy who invented the deception detection method that's still used there.
00:24:04.580
He was at CIA for 25 years and what he talks about, I'll set it up for you. I'll play it again,
00:24:09.060
but listen to how, okay. She does a couple of the things convincing behavior. If I say to you,
00:24:14.540
Mark, did you kill this guy? You say, no, you don't try to convince me. You would never kill
00:24:19.940
anybody. That's, that's not what a normal non-killer does. Um, so the convincing behavior,
00:24:27.420
the deflecting behavior, the qualifying statements, the trying to convince you she's a good person.
00:24:33.100
And listen, listen to it again, understanding those are signs of deception.
00:24:40.160
I absolutely did not kill Travis Alexander. I had nothing to do with his murder. I didn't harm him in
00:24:44.480
any way. I witnessed, um, Travis being attacked by two other individuals.
00:24:50.820
I don't know who they were. I couldn't pick them out in a police lineup.
00:24:56.280
Um, they came into his home and attacked us both.
00:25:09.760
I can't imagine slitting anyone's throat. No jury is going to convict me.
00:25:14.360
Because I'm innocent and you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me.
00:25:20.460
Classic. That's heinous. What? That's convincing.
00:25:23.400
No, um, I can't imagine ever slitting. So who says that you wouldn't say that you'd say,
00:25:30.960
Listen, in retrospect, you see all these signs. You don't really see it up front,
00:25:36.000
but she did, you know, listen, there's one thing that she did say that really bothers me.
00:25:39.300
And I know it's probably for other cases, but when I can't stand when people blame other people
00:25:44.620
for their crimes and worse, I actually think there should be an enhancement, a penalty enhancement
00:25:49.300
when you pick somebody of a certain race or gender.
00:25:53.460
Oh, black man. It was two Latino women who did this, or it was two black males who I can't stand
00:26:01.120
that. All right, I'm done. No, it happens all the time. Yeah. Two Latino women. Who is that?
00:26:06.940
That was the blonde lady, the wife who staged her own disappearance. What's your name?
00:26:12.980
You so now. So how many, how many Hispanic Latino women are stopped and questioned and harassed in
00:26:20.000
that area because of what she said? Right. I can't. Well, at least Jody area said I couldn't
00:26:25.100
pick them out of a lineup. Like, don't bother. Don't worry. We won't. Oh, Sherry Papini. Sherry
00:26:30.800
Papini was the one that we're wasting precious judicial and law enforcement resources on her
00:26:37.920
trying to identify someone that give her credit. Yes. Okay. So she gives that BS interview. I mean,
00:26:43.380
it's so weird and you can take it right now. I'm not going to be convicted. What the hell?
00:26:46.680
This is not a sports game. Like just, this is a crazy person sitting there though, not legally,
00:26:51.540
but on the subject of craziness, there was video of her in the interrogation room at the police station
00:26:57.800
doing a headstand. And I want to ask you why, why did she do this? They left her alone in the
00:27:06.300
interrogation room for the listening audience. She goes down, headstand, legs up against the wall.
00:27:11.400
She's got no shoes on. She's in civilian clothes. She holds it for 30 seconds. They said she then
00:27:17.000
began to walk around the little interrogation room and sing a Dido song, uh, and search through the
00:27:22.080
trash. So Mark, what's that about? Well, whenever I've done that, Megan, um, I have no idea.
00:27:29.100
I should know what that means. That's a nut job. Is she going for an insanity thing? That's my first
00:27:36.500
thought was, is she trying to look like a nutcase in the most serious circumstances she's doing
00:27:41.200
headstands? No, no, no, no, no, no. I eliminate that. Listen, of all your theories, that one I don't
00:27:46.520
like because that would mean this narcissist who has consistently said that it wasn't her. She wasn't
00:27:52.980
there. I was framed like the Mona Lisa. She's not going to then say I'm nutty. I'm crazy. I did it.
00:27:59.100
But I did it because I'm, you know, I don't know right from wrong and I have a mental illness
00:28:02.860
or defect. There's no way that that's what she was doing. So could it just be, she's been in there
00:28:07.600
for hours and somehow in her apartment, she does that. I don't know. There's women who do headstands
00:28:13.900
like that for some purpose, I think. Right. Isn't that part of some pose that somebody might do?
00:28:19.520
Yeah. I mean, it could have been a stress reliever. I don't know. It could have been a stress
00:28:22.180
stress. I'm sure she was stressed. Um, you heard in that interview with inside edition,
00:28:27.380
she claimed for the first time, two intruders killed Travis and that she was there as well.
00:28:33.280
The ones she would never be able to pick out of a lineup. Um, she continued to claim a home invasion
00:28:39.860
and that we'd been there having a consensual sexual interlude using the camera before the
00:28:45.980
intruders got there. The camera is one of the most interesting things about the whole day.
00:28:50.700
They took pictures of each other. She took pictures of him post injury, like post at least
00:29:01.480
one picture they say of it was of him in the shower, like while he was being attacked. And so
00:29:07.220
we have crime scene photos that the police took that show us actually what happened to him. But
00:29:10.500
the reporting was that there was at least one photo post initial injury. How does this person
00:29:15.960
leave the camera there? And I think they eventually found it like in the washing machine or yes. I'm
00:29:23.180
glad you said that I was getting that vibe. It was either washing machine. God, I'm thinking back all
00:29:27.100
these years. It was either washing machine or dryer. So I think it was the washing and somehow the, um,
00:29:32.960
I don't know the little disc or whatever they use was still good. And they were able to get those
00:29:37.340
photos. And again, once that evidence came in, that's it. She's done all our story.
00:29:42.920
I don't get it, Mark. She leaves. She's got all the time in the world. She leaves. They don't find
00:29:47.320
the body for five days. She knows there's a camera with all these photos of her at a minimum with him
00:29:54.340
moments before he dies. Now, why? Washing machine. She thinks washy, washy. Bye bye. That's what I
00:30:01.760
think happened. Why wouldn't she just take it with her? I don't get it. It's too stupid. Is she a moron?
00:30:08.260
She left a lot of clues and she's serving a life sentence. I wouldn't put her up there with
00:30:11.860
Einstein. Yeah. She gets arrested. She goes on trial once she takes the stand. And was it a
00:30:22.540
surprise? Do you remember? Because the prosecution went on for two weeks before the defense had to
00:30:27.400
offer its side. Was it a shock when she took the stand? I don't think I was shocked. No. Um,
00:30:34.880
in fact, the type of person that she was very outspoken, very passionate. I think she needed to,
00:30:39.960
I think that she, I think it was expected. I don't think I was shocked. Okay. Because somebody's
00:30:46.100
going to have to say what happened inside of that room and she's going to have to admit she was there
00:30:51.240
now, thanks to the photographic evidence. Yeah. And also anytime there's any element of
00:30:57.280
self-defense, which is pretty much what she was saying, that she was attacked and then she,
00:31:01.640
you know, had to do something that, that, that can't be brought up by a lawyer. You got to put them
00:31:05.580
up there. Okay. Cause, because she started with intruders to inside edition. Uh, she continued
00:31:10.640
with home invasion. Uh, and you know, I was an innocent victim that saw him, you know, get
00:31:15.820
attacked. And then she switched, she switched to Travis attacked me and I killed him in self-defense.
00:31:25.220
She, in August of 2010, she submitted a request to the court to have letters allegedly from Travis
00:31:32.420
Alexander admitted into evidence. The letters were meant to help prove her new theory of self-defense.
00:31:38.580
The prosecution objected saying the defendant argues that the letters are relevant to her claim
00:31:42.860
of self-defense and that she was a victim of previous sexual and physical abuse by Mr. Alexander,
00:31:47.480
but they denied that. And they said that these letters should not be allowed. Um, her new theory was
00:31:54.140
that Travis Alexander became angry when she dropped his camera and she was forced to kill him in self
00:32:02.060
defense. That was ultimately Mark, what she did claim in front of the jury. Was it not?
00:32:07.280
That's all that was left. In other words, okay. The two intruder theory didn't work. Everything else
00:32:12.860
didn't work. Then you're left with, all right, I'm there. I can either do insanity, which works in a
00:32:18.420
fraction of 1% of the cases. And in this case with all the planning and all the, you know, lies after
00:32:24.420
the fact would absolutely not work. So by, you know, the same way I took the bar exam, I might not have
00:32:29.540
known the answer, but I eliminate those that definitely aren't the right answer. And what's
00:32:33.180
left is the only thing I got to go with. That's what happened. She starts to try to demonize
00:32:38.500
Travis. He abused me. He sexually pressured me. He treated me like I was his sexual play thing.
00:32:47.020
I didn't enjoy it. He was this Mormon who, you know, made me do dirty things that I didn't want to do
00:32:52.760
because he, whatever, he had some beliefs that he didn't want to cross. Here's some of that.
00:32:57.480
Okay. We have, um, first of all, she accuses him of being a pedophile just to set the jury's
00:33:03.000
expectation of him, you know, where she wanted it. Right. Absolutely. No proof of that whatsoever.
00:33:08.200
Other than her weird word here, that is sought for. I walked in and Travis was on the bed masturbating
00:33:15.440
and I got really embarrassed. It was a picture of a little boy. Oh, five ish, five, six. I'm not a good
00:33:25.960
judge of age. He was dressed in underwear, like briefs. I was frozen there for a minute and I just
00:33:35.540
ran. I didn't stay. I felt nauseated, ran inside and threw up in the bathroom.
00:33:40.900
That's a clip from HLM, which is why there's music over the weird testimony, but yeah. So she tries
00:33:47.560
to condemn him as a pedophile before she gets started and had Spider-Man pajamas ordered to
00:33:53.000
the house. Like she was very specific. She's dangerous because she's not an idiot. I mean,
00:33:58.020
she's dumb, but she's not an idiot. I don't know what that means, but you know what I'm saying?
00:34:01.100
She's very cunning. She's not a criminal mastermind. What's that? I said, she's not a criminal
00:34:07.260
mastermind, but that doesn't mean she's, um, not smart. She's correct. She's creative. She's,
00:34:14.200
you know, cunning. She, she plans these things out. She had plenty of time to, to plan how she was going
00:34:20.620
to, um, lower him in the eyes of the jury. And, and you dig from the pedophile card deck,
00:34:27.020
that's about as low as you go. That was the worst. So then she tries to say that she had to give him
00:34:33.720
certain forms of sex because he was a Mormon and this is what he required of her. I'll let her tell
00:34:41.140
it. Uh, this is Sot 5. Sex is sex. There's just different ways to have sex. And it seemed like,
00:34:48.680
it seemed like Travis was kind of, um, I don't know how to put it. Um, but it just seemed like he
00:35:03.440
sort of had like the Bill Clinton version, whereas over here, it seemed like, you know, oral and
00:35:17.640
So now she's Jody, the librarian, right? She's got her little glasses on. He made me do it this way.
00:35:23.380
And the other way that's pedophile, right? So she, this is the defense. And this is one of the reasons
00:35:28.540
why America was riveted. So transparent what she's doing to me anyway. And I think to the jurors also,
00:35:35.560
but you still got to do it. Uh, you know, you, you dealt the cards that you have, you got to play
00:35:40.320
them and, and you have a, a horrible defendant, but there's no other way to advance that ridiculous
00:35:47.120
self-defense theory. Well, is that true? I mean, if you had been her defense attorney,
00:35:54.940
Not write a tell all book and get disbarred. We'll get to that.
00:35:58.540
Um, uh, what would I do? Probably what happened here? I would, um, it would be obvious painfully
00:36:04.680
to me that my client is guilty as they come. And I would say to that person, um, first of all,
00:36:11.720
there might be offering you life. Um, you might want to take that instead of risking the debt penalty,
00:36:16.760
try to persuade her that her chances are very low of prevailing. Um, she, the narcissist would say,
00:36:22.120
I'm not going to be convicted. So I'd go and I'd say, okay. And to myself professionally, I'd say
00:36:26.680
winning is defined by doing everything I can to achieve the best possible outcome for this client.
00:36:32.200
Whether they say guilty or not guilty is not in my control. And so testifying is her option.
00:36:37.420
She wants to testify. She testifies. In other words, yeah, I might lose this case. And you know
00:36:41.960
what? I'm fine with that. Hmm. This is the problem. I mean, basically you try to cut a deal
00:36:47.920
with a client like this because there's just no question that the jurors are going to find her
00:36:53.420
guilty. Um, Juan Martinez was the prosecution. And I, one thing I do remember is you did not like
00:37:00.560
him. You did not like the way he behaved. Listen, the main reason why I accepted your invitation
00:37:06.460
is because I get another crack at talking about his cross-examination. Okay. So let's set it up
00:37:12.940
before, before we play the soundbite of that. Um, he had two weeks to present his case. It's
00:37:19.040
kind of open and shut. What should he have done? What, what would you have preferred to see a
00:37:24.340
prosecutor do? Okay. Ready? Yeah. And I'm talking to the Murdoch, uh, prosecutors, you know,
00:37:31.060
everybody gives both Juan Martinez and those guys such accolades and they did good things. I'll give
00:37:36.620
them credit for that. I'm merely talking about cross-examination, which is an art form.
00:37:42.500
I have taught my students that you don't wing it. You carefully craft every single question that
00:37:50.060
you're going to ask, knowing that it could go this way or this way. And then you are ready with
00:37:54.420
the follow-up. Isn't the fact that on such and such a day, you said this and you boom, boom, boom,
00:37:59.080
boom, boom. And it's a lean filet mignon. You don't present a big fatty steak wandering around. Hey,
00:38:05.720
Mr. Martinez, your ego is not your amigo. You don't get up there and make it about you. You don't take
00:38:11.220
days. You don't, you know, try to grandstand like he did. I thought his cross-examination
00:38:18.440
was horrible. And people are going to say, oh, you're jealous, this and that. I'm not,
00:38:23.660
I don't care. I wish him well. I'm simply saying that it was a, uh, a D minus on the scale. And I'm
00:38:31.280
telling you this, don't go by the outcome. This case could have been won by, by rookie prosecutors.
00:38:36.300
I'm talking about how he did on cross both. He and the Murdoch prosecutors sucked in cross
00:38:42.680
examination. Yes. I've said it publicly. I know I agree with you. And now I have to tell you,
00:38:48.940
I listened to some of these friends of the Murdoch prosecutors on their little podcast and
00:38:52.500
they're like, oh, people just didn't get it. They just didn't get how brilliant that cross was.
00:38:56.480
It's like, no, people know how to do a proper cross examination and they could have, it would
00:39:02.920
have been over and done with. Had they done it properly? They let him go on. There was a chance
00:39:06.900
the jury could have bonded with the guy. They took unnecessary risks in that cross of Alex. I agree
00:39:12.000
with you. Uh, okay. So here's one, you don't take credit because the guy, either the guy, or in this
00:39:17.400
case, Jody looked bad. Oh, look at me. I made her look bad. She would have looked just as bad
00:39:22.920
without the opportunity to then explain, humanize, go on and on. There's no need for that. There's
00:39:30.520
no reason to take a risk on a single question. Good lawyers carefully craft everything. We think
00:39:38.700
about everything we're doing. These guys look like they were winging it and they were that's
00:39:43.200
unacceptable. And you stay in control the whole time. You're the one who's speaking that witness
00:39:47.480
is just there to say yes or no. That's it. You are the one who's telling the jury, the story,
00:39:51.000
you're really listening to the prosecutor with limited exceptions. When I know no matter what
00:39:57.260
they do or say they're hanging themselves. So every now and then I'll throw that in just
00:40:03.320
to switch it up because I know there's not a single answer that's going to score points
00:40:08.900
for them. Well, here's, let's let the audience get a flavor of Juan Martinez. Here is, uh, the
00:40:17.080
prosecutor, Juan trying to have Jody demonstrate Travis's alleged attack because she's claiming
00:40:25.140
I dropped his camera. Then he came for me. He chased me. That's why I had to kill him. Here's
00:40:30.820
just a little bit of that exchange. And then I'll play the feistier one.
00:40:33.640
Ma'am, if you would mind, stand up, go to the left and show me the posture of, uh, Mr. Alexander
00:40:42.740
immediately before he rushed you according to you. Um, as he was running... No, no, just
00:40:48.280
show me. That's what I'm asking you to do. Not talk. Show me. Show me the linebacker pose.
00:40:54.880
He got down and... Well, show me. Show me the linebacker pose. That's what I'm asking for you
00:40:59.080
to do. Okay. He went like that and he turned his head and grabbed my waist. Just like that,
00:41:04.180
correct? Pretty much. And he grabbed your waist, right? I can't say it's just like that, but that's
00:41:08.320
what I remember. Well, no, just, just, I want, without talking, just show me the pose.
00:41:14.440
He got down like that. Like that. All right, go ahead and have a seat then.
00:41:20.300
He's already annoying. Megan, let me add him. Okay. First of all, nobody likes a bully.
00:41:26.600
And I'm telling you, I've actually, during jury selection, excuse jurors, one woman I saw when I
00:41:34.000
was speaking, cause I was like, you know, I turned to this woman. I said, you know, you said you could
00:41:37.840
be fair to my client, but I'm really wondering, ma'am, I get a sense that, and I really questioned
00:41:43.360
her very firmly because I really wanted her out if she wasn't going to be on board with the plan
00:41:48.060
of being fair. There was a tear that fell down from her eye. And I realized in that moment, I asked her,
00:41:54.480
I go, is everything okay? She goes, I don't know. It's just your energy. Like, I feel like
00:41:58.880
you're, and I realized, oh my God, I'm too much for people at certain times. Similarly, what Juan
00:42:04.940
Martinez is doing is being so overly aggressive unnecessarily that that has to turn certain
00:42:11.240
jurors off. There's no reason to be that way in a case like this. That's the first criticism.
00:42:16.420
I've got more with what I just saw. Okay. There's more coming. Um, I'll play another soundbite and then
00:42:21.120
you can resume. Uh, there was this tense moment where she got after him for his style. You know,
00:42:27.040
it got to the point where she actually had to call him out. Here's a little bit of that on SOT7.
00:42:32.800
What factors influence your having a memory problem?
00:42:37.900
Um, usually when men like you are screaming at me or grilling me or someone like Travis doing the
00:42:42.500
same. So that affects your memory problems, right? It does. It makes my brain scramble.
00:42:46.180
So you're saying that it's the core, basically what you're saying is Mr. Martinez's fault that
00:42:52.540
you can't remember things that are going on. It's not your fault. I'm not saying that you're
00:42:57.260
saying that, isn't it? No, I'm not saying that. Is there something about a certain decibel of the
00:43:02.700
voice that creates problems? Decibel tone content, sort of a combination of those factors.
00:43:11.820
Oh, go ahead. God, it's so horrible. And the public doesn't understand because
00:43:18.960
they don't see great cross examinations when they're watching these high profile cases. I
00:43:23.880
haven't seen it recently. There's been some examples. There's some exceptions. None that
00:43:27.540
come to mind. Right. Johnny Depp, Johnny Depp's lawyer with, uh, what's that? Which one? Johnny Depp's
00:43:34.780
lawyer cross-examining Amber Heard. Very effective. Probably. I'm trying to remember.
00:43:41.440
I can't remember her name. She became a star. She's now an NBC contributor. But she did it exactly
00:43:46.040
the way we're discussing. It was textbook, Mark. It was, isn't this true? Isn't that true? And then
00:43:50.360
you did this and then this. Isn't that true, Ms. Heard? Your honor, please direct the witness to
00:43:54.900
answer my question and not, not to go on like this. You know, like she controlled the witness.
00:43:59.200
What's, what's her name, Steve? Camille Vasquez. Yeah. She was good. She was solid.
00:44:05.340
I agree. So two things. One in the first clip that you played, you're asking the defendant now
00:44:12.880
to give her version again, giving her another opportunity to then display for the jurors
00:44:20.580
why she's not guilty. I would never do that. I just make fun of it. And the second clip,
00:44:26.520
you look at him, he doesn't have those questions prepared. He's just winging it. That's what a rookie
00:44:32.400
lawyer does or someone who doesn't do cross-examination. It's not to say there's not
00:44:36.440
room for spontaneity, but I plan my spontaneity. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but that's
00:44:43.760
what I do. You sound like a great, like a great person to hang out with for a wife.
00:44:49.860
Not always. I'm talking about not in the bedroom, in the courtroom. Come on.
00:44:53.300
And on three. Okay. Let's talk about the fact that your friend Juan Martinez,
00:45:03.420
in addition to the defense lawyer, have both been disbarred since then. They've both lost their law
00:45:09.740
licenses. Yeah. Yeah. Different reasons. But can we back up a little bit? Because we left out one of
00:45:17.720
the biggest things in the trial. Well, yeah, I'm not done with the trial, but I do think it's interesting
00:45:22.060
that your friend lost his law license. And I think when people look at that cross-examination,
00:45:26.320
it's very interesting to know, quoting now the AP, that Martinez was accused later, this is why he
00:45:35.080
lost his law license, of leaking the identity of one of the Jody Arias jurors. He leaked the identity
00:45:42.500
to a blogger with whom he was having a sexual relationship, then lied to investigators about it.
00:45:48.800
That's what he was accused of. And of sexually harassing a bunch of female law clerks in his
00:45:55.680
office. He chose not to defend the charges and consented to disbarment. And what's happening?
00:46:02.220
What are you doing? It's a fog, Megan. Like Jody Arias, don't you remember? She was in a fog.
00:46:09.100
What? What? You don't think I bring props out for you? Come on. You got dry ice in your office?
00:46:16.460
It's happening. It's a little machine I gave to my son. It's like 13th birthday. But so appropriate,
00:46:24.360
really, when we're talking about the fog and how Jody Arias was in a fog. She didn't remember
00:46:29.780
anything. Don't you remember the famous fog? Come on. She was in a fog. The lawyer, too. All right.
00:46:36.980
Kill the fog. The lawyer, too, was in a fog as he was sexually harassing all the female law clerks to
00:46:42.860
the point where they were. They had to run. He was staring at the chest of some female employees
00:46:47.640
in the county prosecutor's office, looked them up and down as they walked away. Some female employees
00:46:51.200
would hide in the bathroom, duck into cubicles or engage in busy work to avoid encountering
00:46:55.580
Martinez. He got fired after 32 years as a prosecutor, then lost his law license. That's the man
00:47:01.020
I'm going to have to say, tip of the hat, your instincts were dead on.
00:47:05.300
What an unsubtle pig. You know, I read that to my wife. She's like,
00:47:08.720
ah, what a horrible. And I looked at it from her perspective. And and women don't like that,
00:47:15.500
you know, and what a horrible place to be, you know, where we're all day long. You have this guy
00:47:20.940
staring at you and he's not subtle. And it's just it's just horrible. You know,
00:47:25.340
it's creepy. Well, so you I mean, I think your instincts were dead on. You understood this is
00:47:30.100
not a good lawyer and this is not a good man. And you had a revolt in watching him that was
00:47:35.200
well placed. But the evidence was so strong against her, it didn't wind up hurting his case.
00:47:44.320
He did ultimately get a confession on the stand, which was rather helpful. I mean,
00:47:50.180
we knew that she killed him because she was claiming self-defense by that point. But here is the
00:47:53.860
moment of confession on the stand when she breaks down Sod 8. Would you agree that you're the person
00:48:02.600
who actually slit Mr. Alexander's throat from ear to ear? Yes.
00:48:14.720
Would you also agree that you're the individual that stabbed him in the upper torso?
00:48:23.860
Yes. And you're doing all of this, according to your version of events. You're doing this to this
00:48:36.600
individual after you have already shot him, right? Yes.
00:48:43.600
What do you make of that credit again? Megan, that was her whole theory. She was admitting that
00:48:52.940
she did the abhorrent acts for which she's accused. If anything, he could have artfully said, all right,
00:49:00.080
just so these jurors are crystal clear, the first stab that went into his body, you did that not to
00:49:06.280
strangers that you initially said, these two intruders, right? Then another jab and then
00:49:11.780
another jab. This one over here by the heart. That was you, not somebody else. And then he could
00:49:16.780
have gone on and on and on about every stab that she did. And then to really highlight the brutality,
00:49:23.080
especially since he's going for the death penalty after. So you really want to highlight it. The best
00:49:28.680
he had was you stabbed him in the torso. Yes. Yes. No, 27 times. And then you did this or whatever
00:49:36.000
order he wants. That was, you're giving him credit. And yeah, okay. He did that. But again,
00:49:42.100
it was, wasn't the most effective. He lost a huge opportunity.
00:49:46.280
That's a good point. Drive it home. And I found the medical examiner's testimony that I was looking
00:49:50.240
for earlier. Kevin Horn testified about the stab wounds and said, the slash wound to Travis's throat
00:49:57.200
was three to four inches deep and went to the spinal cord in the back of the neck, had two major
00:50:02.940
vessels that had been sliced. He would have lost a great deal of blood very quickly and then lost
00:50:08.860
consciousness within seconds and died a few minutes later. Uh, and then of course she shot him as well,
00:50:15.200
but he talked about the wounds to Travis's hands. That must've been before the fatal injury. So the guy
00:50:20.120
fought for his life. He must've been terrified. This person he trusted who was, you know, he was
00:50:25.260
undressed with had had this interlude with surprises him in this place. That's supposed to be,
00:50:31.580
you know, inviolate the shower, my God. Um, so you're right. And, and his failure to bring home
00:50:36.920
the brutality did come back to haunt him at the penalty phase. Yeah. I'm still actually thinking
00:50:43.460
of ways that I would have done this differently. I would have said, I'm sorry, Ms. Arias. I see that
00:50:47.680
you're crying. Do you need a moment? And by the way, Ms. Arias, were you crying? Stab number seven,
00:50:52.640
were tears running down your eyes? Then when you did this, were you crying then? Okay. Do you need
00:50:58.420
time? I'll ask the judge if you need a few minutes, but I'm not going to let her hide her face in that
00:51:03.240
tissue and put on that act. Ms. Arias, can you look at me? I'm asking you some questions. If you
00:51:07.940
need time, I'll give you some time. She's hiding her face. The jurors need to judge her credibility,
00:51:12.880
your honor, assuming the judge wouldn't allow me to, to, you know, control her that way. I'd go
00:51:17.260
sidebar and say, judge, they're judging. She's hiding her face. I want them to see her face.
00:51:21.160
She needs time. I'll give her time, but I'm not going to let her bury her face when I'm asking her
00:51:26.320
to talk about the most intimate of brutality that she committed. No way. That's a good point. Does
00:51:32.480
anyone have a scrunchie? Who's got a scrunchie? Let's get that hair back. No, you're right. That
00:51:38.820
was clearly a tactic. Well, the jury didn't buy it because after she'd been on the stand for,
00:51:46.040
they say, 18 days, 18 days between direct and cross-examination, many felt that was a tactic
00:51:51.840
by her defense lawyer to create a bond between Jody and the jury to where they could not
00:51:57.000
vote for death. Do you agree that was a strategy?
00:52:01.400
100%. And let me just say this. I just finished a federal trial. My client wanted to take the
00:52:06.640
witness stand. My direct was extremely long. Number one, I'm humanizing my client. Number two,
00:52:14.600
there was a lot to talk about, right? Number three, it is difficult when they don't know who
00:52:21.260
your client is. The prosecutors will always call them the defendant. I'm here to humanize my client.
00:52:26.600
And yes, in that case, they want to slaughter her. They want to kill her, right? The ultimate
00:52:31.120
sanction. So that serves a purpose. Kudos for the defense lawyer, not the prosecutor,
00:52:36.820
the defense lawyer. I don't care how long he takes. As long as it's productive and it's routine,
00:52:41.720
they've rehearsed it all. It's choreographed. She could look great on direct, long, long, long,
00:52:46.780
long. Cross, not the same. What do you mean? Cross needs to be tight. It needs to be planned out.
00:52:56.820
It shouldn't go for more than a day. And certainly within that day, I'd say a few hours,
00:53:02.700
you can make your points. That's it. Days? It's just a Juan Martinez show? This isn't about you,
00:53:10.360
dude. Stop making it about you. You don't want to prolong the relationship between this person
00:53:15.960
and the jurors any more so than the defense lawyer did on the direct. All right. So
00:53:20.160
the jury gets the case. Ultimately, the jury was read in court. Here's soundbite nine.
00:53:26.820
State of Arizona versus Jody Ann Arias. Verdict, count one. We, the jury, duly impaneled and sworn
00:53:33.200
in the above-intitled action upon our oaths do find the defendant as to count one first-degree murder
00:53:38.940
guilty. Five jurors find premeditated. Zero find felony murder. Seven find both premeditated and
00:53:49.380
felony. Signed, four person. Is this your true verdict? So say you want it all?
00:53:54.900
I mean, it wasn't a shock. She actually looks kind of surprised to hear the verdict.
00:54:02.800
It wasn't a shock to anybody. Don't credit her with having real emotion and equating whatever
00:54:08.100
she just did to how you and I, she's in a whole different area code psychologically. I don't know
00:54:13.320
what that was. I don't. Right. We don't. More acting. Well, then, then we moved on to the penalty
00:54:18.800
phase. Will she get life in prison or will she get the death penalty? And that is in Arizona is up to
00:54:25.900
the jury, uh, at least on the initial go round. And so the, the jury had to wrestle with that.
00:54:33.220
She got to say how she felt about the death penalty in an interview with Fox 10 Phoenix,
00:54:40.520
the week she was found guilty. Listen to this. Not 11. I believe death is the ultimate freedom. So
00:54:46.520
I'd rather just have my freedom soon. As soon as I can get it. So you're saying you actually prefer
00:54:52.220
getting the death penalty to being in prison for life. Yes. Then here she is.
00:54:58.920
Brilliant. Wait, wait, wait. Yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, no. Megan, come on. That was brilliant.
00:55:06.080
You like that. The ultimate in manipulation. That's what Nicholas Cruz should have done. I want
00:55:11.900
death, you know, for killing all those kids at Marjory Stoneman Douglas. Again, it's reverse
00:55:17.260
psychology. She doesn't want to die. She doesn't want to be a death row. She's going to be the,
00:55:21.840
the queen in, in, in prison. She wants to live out her life. And so she just does the twist. That's
00:55:28.860
the ultimate manipulation for that. I'm sure. Hmm. So she, she did it, um, with the jury as well.
00:55:37.680
A couple of sounds of addressing. We'll start with 12.
00:55:41.040
This is the worst mistake of my life. It's the worst thing I've ever done. It's the worst thing I ever
00:55:49.720
could have seen myself doing. In fact, I couldn't have seen myself doing it before that day. I
00:55:54.920
wouldn't even want to harm a spider. I'd gather them up in cups and put them outside to this day. I can
00:56:02.660
hardly believe I was capable of such violence, but I know that I was. And for that, I'm going to be
00:56:08.240
sorry for the rest of my life. Probably longer. Oh Lord. All right. Let me add on to that.
00:56:16.140
One, I'm offended for her making me feel guilty for killing spiders. Very offensive. Um, and number
00:56:21.780
two, come on. She's again, she's, I see how manipulative she is. I keep coming back to that
00:56:28.300
word. And she couldn't drum up any real tears either. It's like, if you really are unjustly convicted,
00:56:35.580
it's you, you just look and sound entirely different here. She is. Um, one more thing
00:56:40.380
bothers me. I got to get these things off. I'm sorry to keep interrupting, but like, if I don't,
00:56:43.540
I'm going to think about them later, please mistake. I can't stand on people called like
00:56:48.160
something as complex and abhorrent and as planned out. And as, you know, just gory as a mistake,
00:56:55.760
right? 27 stabs. Those were mistakes. Like, like Hitler calling the Holocaust, you know,
00:57:01.120
an inconvenience, you know, a minor blemish on my record, you know, like stop minimizing
00:57:06.080
things. It's not a mistake. Right. That's a good point. Like what, what was the mistake?
00:57:10.780
The three inch, you know, cutting of the carotid artery after you stabbed in 27 times, like the
00:57:15.800
number, number two through 26. Those were the, like in any event, um, now here she is asking
00:57:21.220
them for, uh, well, you'll listen, you'll hear 13. I've made many public statements that
00:57:28.140
I would prefer the death penalty to life in prison. Each time I said that though, I meant
00:57:34.200
it. I lacked perspective until very recently. I could not have imagined standing before you
00:57:40.060
all and asking you to give me life. To me, life in prison was the most unappealing outcome
00:57:47.620
I could possibly think of. I thought I'd rather die, but as I stand here now, I can't in good
00:57:55.020
conscience ask you to sentence me to death because of them. Asking for death is tantamount to suicide.
00:58:05.800
Either way, I'm going to spend the rest of my life in prison. It'll either be shortened or not.
00:58:11.280
She was pointing to her parents when she said because of them. So a change of heart, Mark.
00:58:19.220
Yeah. How convenient. I just, that's just so silly. I don't even have anything to say. I think
00:58:24.740
I've said it already. Manipulate. This person is a household name. I mean, think about that. This
00:58:28.320
woman is a household and most people in America know who Jodi Arias is because the media took to
00:58:33.440
this case like mods to a flame. She was the star. She's a sociopath. You can see, it's fascinating to
00:58:39.620
see the mind in, you know, working, like doing its manipulation. And you know what? It worked
00:58:46.540
because the jury ultimately did not sentence her to death. They were, it was a hung jury. And then
00:58:51.860
they brought in another jury to try to decide. And they too could not decide on giving her death and
00:58:58.740
without a unanimous vote for it, you don't get it. And that's why she got life in prison without the
00:59:03.640
possibility of parole where she is right now. What we don't know is the split, right? Was it one
00:59:09.740
lone juror? Was it a few? Likely it was a few because, you know, there was a lot of mitigators.
00:59:15.600
I didn't see any of that testimony, but you know, the lack of priors, um, I don't want to start naming
00:59:23.200
them because it'll look like I'm being sympathetic, but whatever the defense said, there was stuff to
00:59:27.540
work with here. You know, the crime was especially heinous, atrocious, and cruel and cold calculated
00:59:33.160
and very premeditated. This, the state had that going for them, you know, everything else, you
00:59:39.100
know, the mitigators, it was probably a couple of people said, no, she should get life instead. And
00:59:43.500
then that's it. They only needed a few there. I mean, is it true that generally they don't like
00:59:48.720
to give you the death penalty if it's just one murder, as opposed to a serial killer or like the
00:59:55.680
guy who takes out his family, you know, something like that? There's that. And statistically,
00:59:59.960
you know, how many women actually get the death penalty, you know, it's very rare. And don't you
01:00:06.600
tell me that looks don't matter and how she acts. People consider that. They just do.
01:00:14.560
So we talked about the fact that the prosecutor is now disbarred and you mentioned it in passing.
01:00:18.700
Her lawyer too is now disbarred. What did he do?
01:00:22.500
This bothers me. Another reason why I was, I was looking forward to doing this. This really bothers me.
01:00:28.200
So he writes a book, a tell all and included in that book are intimate details that she shared with
01:00:35.800
him while he was representing her. He then writes this book and, you know, she's objecting to it
01:00:43.100
naturally. And apparently they knew about it. The bar did and said, listen, you're either going to,
01:00:50.140
for putting this out there, you're either, you have two options. One will suspend you for four years,
01:00:54.560
but you cannot then put this book out there. Or you can lose your law license forever, give it up.
01:01:02.900
And then, you know, obviously then you'll be free to publish that book. He chose option number two.
01:01:07.520
And I'm not going to out anybody, my wife, who said, good for him for putting that out there.
01:01:12.380
Because I'm sure many people feel that way. And I was so upset about that. Because yeah,
01:01:18.240
do I care that Jody Arias' thoughts are put out there? No, because I don't like Jody Arias. But
01:01:23.720
it's so much bigger than that. He is eroding the attorney-client privilege where now either my
01:01:29.720
clients or other future clients feel like, wait, is this going to be the lawyer who liked that guy,
01:01:35.060
that Nimrod? He's going to put it out there in some book to capitalize. And then that doesn't give
01:01:40.120
any confidence when anybody goes to speak to an attorney. I'm really bothered by it.
01:01:44.420
Hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing that the two of the main cast characters in this cast wound up
01:01:50.280
disbarred. And the third, the true star is behind bars for the rest of her life without the possibility
01:01:55.680
of parole. There have been some reports that behind bars, she's in a medium security prison.
01:02:02.420
She's been making friends and lovers and tattooing her name on her jail cell mates.
01:02:11.600
Lifetime is actually just now, 10 years later, coming out with a docudrama about Jody Arias and
01:02:19.160
the case and gets into some of that, like her life in jail. We managed to pull a clip,
01:02:23.640
Mark Iglarch, for the entertainment of the audience. Here's a bit.
01:02:27.020
A lifetime original movie ripped from the headlines.
01:02:32.240
Jody Arias killed Travis Alexander. Jody Arias. Jody. Jody. Jody. Jody Arias.
01:02:37.900
I'm Jody. You know her name. It's worth doing whatever it takes to gain my freedom.
01:02:43.580
You're the worst. We do what we have to do. But not this story.
01:02:47.760
When you get out, maybe you can help me get the word out about my innocence.
01:02:50.900
Sure, whatever you need. I thank God for you. I knew you came into my life for a reason.
01:02:55.560
Based on a true story. There is no question. Jody killed Travis Alexander.
01:03:01.000
This January. Everything you said was a lie. I was worried that if I told you what really happened,
01:03:05.480
I'd lose you. It's in the past now and I love you. I can't defend you.
01:03:11.800
Did you believe she was innocent? Yes. Was she innocent? Hell no.
01:03:25.560
Bad Behind Bars. She's manipulating half the jail.
01:03:36.700
I mean, you know, I was like, wait, that looks like her.
01:03:42.480
How are you able to make friends and, you know,
01:03:47.080
Yeah, she's probably living a pretty damn good life.
01:03:54.380
So that's much better for her. Orange is the new black, you know.
01:03:57.920
And then secondly, she didn't kill any children.
01:04:01.520
You know, in the pecking order, she killed a man that many think might have done something bad to her.
01:04:07.420
At least that was her story. So in prison, you know, she's at the top of the pecking order.
01:04:12.280
And with her manipulation and beauty, she's probably living large.
01:04:17.200
And when I say beauty, I use that in quotations.
01:04:24.860
Is it is is it possible to have a co-ed prison?
01:04:30.840
They said she met somebody named Donovan Baring while serving time.
01:04:36.860
Donovan was serving time for accessory to arson in the Maricopa County Jail,
01:04:45.260
Then this duo became really close and stayed in touch.
01:04:48.780
Afterward, Donovan, who I guess is a girl and Jody, they stayed tight.
01:04:52.060
Then they were at Estrella, another prison where this other gal, Tracy, met Donovan for the first time.
01:05:01.080
They say by their own admission, Jody used her good looks and sexuality to get what she wanted
01:05:08.460
Although they never engaged in actual sex acts together,
01:05:11.520
she once delivered a striptease with Tracy for Donovan
01:05:15.200
and then often refused to leave their cell when they wanted alone time together
01:05:19.860
from getting them to manage her social media accounts.
01:05:24.320
To ultimately officiating their wedding ceremony.
01:05:27.680
She did it all for the couple, quoting from thecinemaholic.com.
01:05:37.760
Mark, once a master manipulator, always a master manipulator.
01:05:46.120
And I, too, by the way, found it confusing at first.
01:05:52.040
And then you play it along and you figure out what happened.
01:05:54.120
I think as an aside, I read she's got something going on with a guy on the outside.
01:05:59.080
And that's easy to do because there's nut jobs out there sending letters,
01:06:04.080
wanting to be with her, phone privileges, right?
01:06:07.340
And then eventually she's looking to get married to get the conjugal visits.
01:06:16.200
So it just goes to show you, though, the media is still obsessed with this case.
01:06:20.940
You don't always do a 10-year retrospective on every case.
01:06:23.200
But I remember covering this all the time that America was into it and wanted more,
01:06:30.520
And she's still providing material from behind bars.
01:06:36.320
When you look back and you say, OK, what lessons can be learned from this case?
01:06:42.540
OK, so number one, you never really know anyone.
01:06:48.380
And even when you think that you're a good judge of character, you never know.
01:06:55.020
So once you get the evidence, that speaks volumes.
01:06:58.260
Don't judge somebody based upon their demeanor, what they say and how they look,
01:07:02.320
which coincidentally is exactly what courts are about.
01:07:07.600
But, you know, the court of public opinion, wait, listen to all the evidence,
01:07:15.780
The second takeaway I got is, you know, I can't say enough about this prosecutor.
01:07:23.720
And by winning, I mean he got the guilty verdict that anyone would have gotten.
01:07:26.820
But his cross-examination to this day still was horrible.
01:07:31.140
I don't even want to put it in the same category as the Murdoch prosecutor.
01:07:35.440
His was not great, but Martinez's was to me offensive, you know, that he took a case that
01:07:43.120
was a slam dunk and just took days and days and days to do this horrible badgering bullying
01:07:52.720
We'll make arrangements to make sure that in a very important case that you prepare and
01:07:57.700
all the questions are right there and you've thought them out.
01:08:05.200
You know, that rule is that the jury is supposed to like you more than the defendant.
01:08:09.400
You know, that's your goal when you're examining somebody that they will like you, the lawyer
01:08:14.680
And that the way to get there is not usually to berate them, to shout at them, to telegraph
01:08:22.320
with every question that you have nothing but dripping disdain for them.
01:08:28.380
This is going to be deep and you're going to say it's flaky and hokey, but I think first
01:08:33.160
for you to be liked by a jury or anyone, you've got to thoroughly and unconditionally like
01:08:41.500
Well, it's interesting that he did turn out to be a bad guy.
01:08:45.420
You know, he did such a bad job and he wasn't likable in there.
01:08:48.800
And it's just always interesting when like the outward persona winds up matching with
01:08:56.260
It is an affirmation that maybe you can sometimes trust your instincts.
01:09:00.100
I don't believe you can't ever get ever know somebody.
01:09:06.840
I, I love Doug too, but I love what Doug has shown me Doug to be.
01:09:15.640
That's we've never let out, not necessarily consciously, but sometimes subconsciously.
01:09:19.920
So again, all we're seeing, and I adore my wife.
01:09:28.200
I, there's stuff I don't know about her and I love her for that too.
01:09:31.900
But again, all we know is what we know that turn back on the fog, the fog, the fog needs
01:09:52.740
I hope you enjoyed revisiting the Jodi Arias case with us tomorrow.
01:09:56.420
We bring you the woman who made it her mission to take down former subway spokesperson and
01:10:10.460
I have not been able to stop thinking about this episode.
01:10:15.940
I would love to correspond with you over what you hear.
01:10:32.560
And the woman who is my guest was at the center of it all.