Jodi Arias Trial That Captivated America： A Megyn Kelly Show True Crime Special ｜ Ep. 571
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 11 minutes
Words per minute
178.23004
Harmful content
Misogyny
84
sentences flagged
Hate speech
20
sentences flagged
Summary
This month marks 15 years since Travis Alexander was viciously murdered by his ex-girlfriend Jodi Arias. We revisit the case with criminal defense attorney and longtime Kelly s Court contributor Mark Eiglarsh. We ll take a look back at the events leading up to Travis s murder, what Jodi s life is like in prison today, and Mark will dissect the defense and prosecution in a way that only you can.
Transcript
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Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.
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Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. All this week we are bringing
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you our hot crime summer shows. Today, a deep dive into the Jody Arias case. This month marks
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15 years since Travis Alexander was viciously murdered by his ex-girlfriend Jody Arias.
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We revisit the case with criminal defense attorney and longtime Kelly's Court contributor Mark
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Eiglarsh. We'll take a look back at the events leading up to Travis's murder, what Jody's
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life is like in prison today, and Mark will dissect the defense and prosecution in a way
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that only Mark can. I'm going to kick it off with a little walk down memory lane because
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you used to come on Kelly's Court back then as now. This one doesn't involve you. This
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Kelly's Court doesn't involve you, but it's a scene setter. Now we're 10 years post-verdict
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right now. Here's a little flashback to I was on the air when we got the guilty verdict
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and covered it with the court then, which was Mercedes Colwyn that day and Jonas Bilboer.
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Look at this sweet delivery. She's so concerned about their happiness and their peace now. Listen.
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I hope that now that a verdict has been rendered that they're able to find peace,
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some sense of peace. That's great. And the Oscar goes to, because this is a woman who stabbed him 27
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times in the heart as well, then shot him and look at the bloody sink. I'm not to be sensationalist,
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but prosecutors say the man was standing at the sink watching himself get stabbed to death,
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watching himself get murdered and bleed out over, over the sink. Oh, but Mercedes,
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she's so concerned about the family's peace. Give me a break. Okay. A very pregnant Megan Kelly
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in that clip, but that gets to it, right? I mean, the thing, because I've been asking myself, Mark,
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what is it about the Jodi Arias case that kept people so riveted? And in part, it's this mousy
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little woman who committed one of the most heinous murders that ever came before the national eye.
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You left out one thing, which is obvious, and maybe you intentionally did it, but
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Americans like pretty packages. Okay. If she wasn't pretty, and I put that in quotations,
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I mean, it's not how I feel, but there is some type of objective, you know, in Hollywood,
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what people look for, people found that she was attractive. And if she wasn't, and she looked
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differently, I don't know if people would have been as interested. So let's, let's bring that out.
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That's, that's gotta be something that you concede, right?
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Right. And the sex, I mean, it was like an R rated trial. It was like Cinemax back in the day.
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Oh yeah. No, there was a lot of that. Yes. And, and she really threw punches. I mean,
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she really, you know, dead man can't tell tales. He was dead. She was free to say whatever the hell
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she wanted. So whether it be, you know, allegations of him being involved in kiddie porn, which he can't
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defend or, or, or him wanting to do, which really was documented because you heard those horrible
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audio tapes of him, you know, some of the things he would do to her, which weren't meant for public
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viewing. It was just horrible. All right. So let's start, let's start at the beginning.
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These two meet in 2008, I think it was 2008 at a business convention and 2006, sorry to September.
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These two meet in September, 2006 at a work conference in Las Vegas, Nevada, Jody Arias and
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Travis Alexander. And then they start dating on a few months after that, as far as I can tell, Mark,
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they were only dating for like four months, but then continue to sleep with each other.
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Yeah. It sounds like it became very physical, very quickly. And, you know, she's the manipulative
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type, right? So I can't imagine this was pure love. I think this was lust. I think this was her,
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you know, playing the angles, looking to manipulate him. And she jumped all in real quick.
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Did we have any evidence that prior to that relationship, because I think she was like
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28, he was a couple of years older than that, that she was some sort of a psycho that she had,
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you know, problems with other partners in turning into a stalker or any other criminal history.
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I don't remember hearing anything like that. I heard little stories, but, you know, everybody
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comes out of the woodwork on high profile cases, nothing that I attributed as credible and believable.
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So he was a Mormon and she wasn't until after she met him, right?
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Right, right. She became a drive-through Mormon, you know, all of a sudden I'll convert. I'm sure that
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was, you know, again, to somehow take one step further into his good graces.
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So they, they, they meet, uh, yeah, here she is getting her, you know, I don't know. Is it a
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baptism into the Mormon face? I'm not exactly sure how we would refer to this, but they date from
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February of 2007 to June, 2007. And then they break up and maintain a physical relationship.
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One year later, one year later, she appears to stage a burglary at her grandparents' house.
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This would become important because it was one week before the murder. And what happened in that
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burglary? Yeah. Next level stuff. She's thinking, okay, they stole a gun from my grandparents. So that
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gun's out there in the criminal world. So that's the gun. However, she'd like to use to potentially,
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execute her boy. This is relevant because she would later claim when she was on trial,
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a bunch of different things, intruders, accident, self-defense. And if she intentionally staged a
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burglary at her parent, her grandparents' house a week before the murder, then it's very clearly a
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premeditated act. Absolutely. The best she's got is, well, I brought it with me for protection. I was
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going on the road, whatever. I didn't mean to kill him. I had it with me. It doesn't necessarily mean
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she wanted to kill him, but it's strong evidence of it. But I got to go back. There's something
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that's bothering me and it'll bother me tonight, Megan. I had brought out that she has a pretty
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shell to many people. Did you concede that? Is she what you would call attractive? And I'm not
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talking about her soul. I'm just saying, don't you think that that played a role in why people cared
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so much? Why the media? Oh, sure. Yeah. If you have an attractive defendant or victim. I mean,
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I think she was prettier when things started. And then when she took the stand, when she was at
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trial, she tried to make herself look very plain, Janie mousy, you know, but the blonde and, you know,
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the naked pictures, obviously she's got a very good body. All those things play into, oh, what's
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happening there? I do want that kind of a person. Right. All right. I got what I needed. You can move
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along. I got it. I just needed to know that. Okay. So the date of that burglary was May 28th,
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2008, June 2nd, 2008, which is now two days before the murder. She rented a vehicle from budget rent-a-car
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in Redding, California. And then on June 4th, 2008, Travis Alexander was killed in Mesa, Arizona.
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So, I mean, to me, this does all look like premeditation. She looks like a jilted lover who
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became a stalker, who became obsessed with him. We're told that in, I think, April, right before
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the fake burglary at her grandparents' house, he was going to go with her on some trip.
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Cancun. Everybody wants to go to Cancun, baby. And then he, she thought she was in the money. She was
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going to go with him. It's going to be romantic. He's going to really spend the dough on me. He's
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going to, he's going to, it's going to be romantic. And he picked another girl. That was it.
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And that really can be the catalyst for a lunatic. Like you never know what's going to set
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some crazy stalker off. Sure. To the point of, you know, disappoint any normal gal who has strong
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feelings for someone for whatever reason. But when you take someone who's, you know, got 51 cards and
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isn't all there, that can really amp it up. Yes. All right. So that's as near as we can tell,
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like one of the last final acts he does that gets in her head somehow, but they had been on again,
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off again with the sex after breakup. So, you know, who knows how this exactly files in June 4th, 2008.
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That's the day of the murder. Uh, and we'll get to what happened that day, but
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weirdly his body was not found for another five days. Why do we know why that was? Like,
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did he not have a job? Did he not have friends? How do you sit in your, you know, how is it that
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a body's five days in the apartment without anybody noticing? Yeah, it was like that. I'm
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trying to think of the specifics, but they, he was supposed to be somewhere and then they checked
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in on him. I think a friend did finally, he wasn't there, but yeah, I don't think he had any place
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that he had to be. He didn't have roommates. He didn't have nosy, you know, uh, parents coming
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around. So yeah, it just happened. Wow. All right. So the day of the murder, June 4th,
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what happened? She, she goes over there and what happened? Well, I don't know. Meaning,
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you know, we have what was alleged by the prosecution and the jury found her guilty. You never
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really know exactly what took place. Um, but what it looked like was, um, she had a plan to execute
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him and that's exactly what happened. She tried to defend with, he was attacking me and that was
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malarkey. Initially though, I think she was on inside edition and told a few people I wasn't there.
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I was framed like the Mona Lisa. I had nothing to do with it. And then when the evidence comes out,
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like most of my clients do, they go, Oh wait, you got that evidence. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I was
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there, but that's what happened. So initially, you know, the murder happens on June 4th. She leaves.
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We, we know, I mean, she winds up confessing on the stand. We know she did this crime now. Um,
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but she left the crime scene. No one's finds Travis until his friends realize like he's not showing up
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at events, et cetera. And they go to his house. They, the friends find his body in a crumpled heap
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in his shower, an incredibly bloody crime scene and called nine one one. Here's a bit of that
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Hello. Hi. So what's going on? He's, uh, he, he's dead. He's in his bedroom in the shower. Okay. How did this
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happen? Do you have any idea? No, we have no idea. Everyone's been wondering about him for a few days.
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She said that there was blood. So is it coming from his head? Did he cut his head? No, it's all over the place.
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Hmm. And right away, Mark, the friends suspected her. They, they described her to the authorities as,
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as a potential stalker. And that's what Travis had been saying about her, but they did have sex that
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day. Right. I mean, like it appears that they had hours and hours of some sort of sexual interlude
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prior to the murder. That's what's so unusual. Listen, you know, this guy clearly was a guy with
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strong emotions, which is the nicest thing I can say about him in terms of that. And, you know,
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they went at it. And my guess is there were some discussions. Maybe that was her way of trying to
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convince him to pick her and replace the gal that he did select for Cancun to go. I don't know,
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but something happened and she snapped. If, if she didn't plan on doing this anyway, no matter what.
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Cause you have hours and we know this because they found a camera that the two had been taking
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pictures of the sexual acts. There's pictures of her posing totally nude for the camera. I mean,
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very consensually does not look like a forced situation on either end. So for sure. And it
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looks like it went on for hours. What do you make of that? In other words, I want to know what you
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think there. Why are they having sex? The next minute she's executing him in a horrible, horrible,
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tragic way, which we're going to get to. But why do you think, what's the sex about? What do you
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think? I think it was like a goodbye gift from her to him though. He didn't realize that's what it
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was. I think he thought it was just genuine, a genuine hookup. And I think she had this whole
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thing planned. She went there to murder him and this was her farewell, you know, send off to the
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guy. I do. That's why she's a sick effort. And so I think she had the whole thing planned out. This
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was, there's no other reason. Okay. That is just cold as ice, baby. Wow. That's her. That's what's
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interesting about her. I mean, from a, you know, I never thought about that. Like why? In fact,
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in my mind, I couldn't wrap my head around that theory. And so I then thought, okay, she's got it
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just in case whatever. And then things go awry and then she kills him either second degree or she
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just said, okay, it's part of my plan that I'm now going to implement. And she had time to think about
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it when she's there and she does it. But I don't know, man, you think she knew she was going to
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kill him prior to having sex with him? Yes, I do. I think the whole thing was planned out in great
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detail, but she's a bad murderer. I mean, she's, she was effective at committing the murder, but
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very bad at covering up her tracks. And she should have spent more, more time in the planning and the
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lying phase because she turned out to be a disaster at that. Now she very shortly thereafter gets
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arrested. The friends are like, it was, it was Jodi Arias. She's a stalker. Meanwhile, the day after
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the murder, she went and saw another love interest, some guy named Ryan Burns, a former coworker of her,
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of his, of hers in Utah. That guy, I think he also took the stand. It's like, that's how cold she is,
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Mark. Like she now at this point, there's no doubt she committed this brutal murder the day before she
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goes off to see another lover. Oh, no problem. I mean, like, yeah. Consistent with what you were
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saying, like to be able to have sex with, with, with this guy before she, she kills him, you know,
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there's Travis, all right, he's dead. She, she seems to just manipulate. And this is also what I know
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after the fact I'm jumping ahead of how she manipulates everybody in prison and stuff like
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that. But that seems to be her MO. I don't know that type of person, but someone who,
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who can't have an honest relationship and it's all about manipulation. So she probably had numerous
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fellas in her life, including the guy you just mentioned where, okay, onto him. What do I need
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from him? Let me manipulate him to get it. And they're, they tend to be narcissistic personalities,
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right? Who it's all about them. You only matter to the extent you reflect off of them. You cannot
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leave them. You certainly cannot dump them the way Travis did with Jody. Um, and that's why you
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can't process it as a normal person because we normal people don't react that way when they get
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dumped. It's sad, but we don't kill anybody. So she goes to see Ryan. Let me tell you this,
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that type of person gets very misunderstood because the average juror who's arguably like you and me,
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you know, who's got sensibilities, uh, the right moral compass, who goes to work every day,
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kids, family, normal, they come in and they're trying to analyze the actions of some of these
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people. And a lot of times you're like, well, wait, that doesn't make sense. I wouldn't do that.
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There's no way that happened. I, I couldn't have done that. Even with the Murdoch trial to this day,
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I know he killed his wife and kid and OJ killed. You know, it's hard for me to actually see it
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because it's so foreign to me and what I would do and what the average juror can wrap their heads
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around. Well, that plays into the brutality of the crime because you, you'd look at this beautiful,
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tiny woman and you do not think she would be capable of this. You know, you see like two big
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muscly men with the tats in the prison in their background. And you think, Oh, okay.
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But teardrops from the eye. Yeah. Yeah. You see Jodi Arias. You think, Nope, because
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the level of violence that went down at this crime scene was unbelievable.
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27 stab wounds, a slit throat and a gunshot to his face. And the medical examiner testified that the,
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the actual like slicing was extremely deep, three to four inches deep, uh, into his neck, trying to find
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the exact, um, the description of it, but it was absolutely merciless. She, she nearly decapitated him
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while he was in that shower. She clearly went in there while he was showering and nearly decapitated
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him, stabbed him 27 times. And then the medical examiner said after that shot him in the face. So,
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I mean, the level of anger behind that Mark speaks to what, I mean, I don't know. What do we,
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what do we glean from the level of violence? It goes back to what I keep trying to do in my head,
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maybe as a defense lawyer, as a compassionate soul to believe that something went down before
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that happened, that he said something that set her off. I find it hard to believe, although I'm not
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relating to this type of person that she, and this is probably what she did, that she had the whole
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plan. And this was, as you say, her goodbye love session. And then I'm going to get them in the
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shower. And she did. It just seems more consistent with someone who was set off by some words or
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action. Okay. But how can that be? Because we've seen the crime photos and, and among the photos that
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they found on the camera, which she left behind is there are photos of Travis in that shower.
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And it appears to be after the lovemaking, you know, he's in the shower, he's not wearing his
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clothing. And that's of course, we know where he was killed and he's okay. There are photos of him
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in the shower. He's okay. So you don't have a fight. I mean, like he, an errant word from the shower
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as she was photographing him naked after their lovemaking. That doesn't make sense. My theory makes
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much more sense. No, it might. I, again, I'm listen, I'm not defending this woman at all.
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I'm just saying as a human, I'm just opening up and telling you how it's still hard for me to wrap
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my head around what she did. It's so challenging. And it's hard to understand how she, this life
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thin little thing could, could kill him, could kill a man. He wasn't overly large, but he was bigger
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than she was. And how do you stab a man? 27. I mean, he was in the shower, I guess he's vulnerable
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and he's not expecting it. But I mean, if that, if that, you know, slice across the neck was number
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one, then that would have been the end of it. And it probably, and it probably wasn't. I think
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the medical examiner said that those defensive wounds on his hands likely came first, which would
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make sense. She's, he's caught off guard. He goes like this. She continues to stab. Um, but you just
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said it, he's off guard. He doesn't expect it. He's vulnerable. He's got nothing to defend
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himself except the bar. So, you know, what do you do? She, she, she knew what she was doing
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and she's passionate and aggressive and, and, and wanted it done.
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And then to shoot him after the fact is that Emmy said that he didn't see a brain hemorrhage
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from the bullet in Travis's head. And he said there would be if, if the bullet had gone in there
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while he was alive and his blood was pumping. So she shot him. She just made sure, you know,
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he was a hundred percent dead. She wanted this guy dead. She was very angry with him,
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which again suggests that I think my theory, you know, she was angry. She was dumped. She was angry.
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She wasn't going to Cancun. You don't dump somebody who's a narcissistic sociopath like Jody Arias.
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And the whole thing was a setup. That's, you know, that seems to be what the evidence suggests.
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I agree. I just, I just cannot relate. It's going to take me some time to process probably
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tonight as I'm laying down, writing my gratefuls. Wait a second. She had sex with him as a goodbye.
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Megan said that. And I trust Megan. I believe her. And then executes him in the most violent manner.
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In other words, after stab number 16, that apparently wasn't enough for her. You know,
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it required another few jabs right now. We're at 21, 22, still not enough. I need about six more.
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And then I'm going to slash his throat and shoot him. You really do have to think about what she
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actually did to appreciate how abhorrent this was. My God. And then, and then leave his crumpled
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dead body in the shower. Like he was trash. Um, she did get arrested a month and a couple of days
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after the act. Uh, then more bizarre behavior came out. I'll get to the interrogation room,
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but she gave an interview to inside edition. Well, Mark's number one advice to all of his
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clients. Do not talk. Shut up. Let me do the talking. If there's going to be any talking,
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she talked to the fish who kept his mouth shut, never got caught. Right. That's right. Um,
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that's right. And, and, and I'm not saying that certain interviews aren't beneficial. We I've done it
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many cases, but that's after, you know, what the evidence is, you know, the parameters, you know,
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how you can and can't get hurt. What she did was just reckless. So she gives an interview to
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inside edition, which actually makes some sense knowing her in the way we do. She did. She,
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she was a narcissist. She wanted to be a star. She cared about how she looked, how people were
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perceiving her. Um, I think she was seeing an opportunity to like see her name in lights as
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opposed to just like, Oh my God, keep yourself out of bars. Um, here is a bit of what she told
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inside edition. This is well before the trial after she'd just been placed in jail. Did you kill
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Travis Alexander? I absolutely did not kill Travis Alexander. I had nothing to do with his murder. I
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didn't harm him in any way. I witnessed, um, Travis being attacked by two other individuals.
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Who? I don't know who they were. I couldn't pick them out in a police lineup. So what happened?
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Um, they came into his home and attacked us both. You did not shoot Travis. No, I've never even shot
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a real gun. You did not stab him 27 times. That's, that's heinous. Or slit his throat from ear to ear.
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I can't imagine slitting anyone's throat. No jury is going to convict me. Why not? Because I'm
00:22:48.280
innocent and you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me. Oh man. Oh man. We could,
00:22:56.800
we could have, we could do an hour just on that. There is so much there. So wait, all right. So
00:23:01.720
let me just go. First of all, the one thing she asked for was for makeup prior to her mug shot.
00:23:10.320
That's what she's thinking about. Right. Right. I'm not thinking about a life of, of having to never
00:23:17.040
take a shower ever again in a, in a jail or prison because you know, I'm too pretty. She's worried
00:23:23.020
about her mug shot. She needs to, to mix. There we go. It is a nice mug shot. So it goes to your point
00:23:30.060
how she's so narcissistic. She wants the world to love her and, and believe that she's, you know,
00:23:35.020
Snow White, but look at the way she acted. This is why you never know anyone. You just know how
1.00
00:23:42.080
they want you to see them because she looks believable. If you know nothing about the facts
00:23:48.040
of the case and you look at, you go, yeah, how could she have done that? So beware folks. You never
00:23:53.500
really. I watched that interview, Mark. And all I can think of is Phil Houston, the human lie detector,
00:24:00.200
CIA guy who invented the deception detection method that's still used there.
00:24:04.580
He was at CIA for 25 years and what he talks about, I'll set it up for you. I'll play it again,
00:24:09.060
but listen to how, okay. She does a couple of the things convincing behavior. If I say to you,
00:24:14.540
Mark, did you kill this guy? You say, no, you don't try to convince me. You would never kill
00:24:19.940
anybody. That's, that's not what a normal non-killer does. Um, so the convincing behavior,
00:24:27.420
the deflecting behavior, the qualifying statements, the trying to convince you she's a good person.
00:24:33.100
And listen, listen to it again, understanding those are signs of deception.
00:24:40.160
I absolutely did not kill Travis Alexander. I had nothing to do with his murder. I didn't harm him in
00:24:44.480
any way. I witnessed, um, Travis being attacked by two other individuals.
00:24:50.820
I don't know who they were. I couldn't pick them out in a police lineup.
00:24:56.280
Um, they came into his home and attacked us both.
00:25:09.760
I can't imagine slitting anyone's throat. No jury is going to convict me.
00:25:14.360
Because I'm innocent and you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me.
00:25:20.460
Classic. That's heinous. What? That's convincing.
00:25:23.400
No, um, I can't imagine ever slitting. So who says that you wouldn't say that you'd say,
00:25:30.960
Listen, in retrospect, you see all these signs. You don't really see it up front,
00:25:36.000
but she did, you know, listen, there's one thing that she did say that really bothers me.
00:25:39.300
And I know it's probably for other cases, but when I can't stand when people blame other people
00:25:44.620
for their crimes and worse, I actually think there should be an enhancement, a penalty enhancement
00:25:49.300
when you pick somebody of a certain race or gender.
00:25:53.460
Oh, black man. It was two Latino women who did this, or it was two black males who I can't stand
1.00
00:26:01.120
that. All right, I'm done. No, it happens all the time. Yeah. Two Latino women. Who is that?
1.00
00:26:06.940
That was the blonde lady, the wife who staged her own disappearance. What's your name?
0.60
00:26:12.980
You so now. So how many, how many Hispanic Latino women are stopped and questioned and harassed in
1.00
00:26:20.000
that area because of what she said? Right. I can't. Well, at least Jody area said I couldn't
00:26:25.100
pick them out of a lineup. Like, don't bother. Don't worry. We won't. Oh, Sherry Papini. Sherry
00:26:30.800
Papini was the one that we're wasting precious judicial and law enforcement resources on her
1.00
00:26:37.920
trying to identify someone that give her credit. Yes. Okay. So she gives that BS interview. I mean,
00:26:43.380
it's so weird and you can take it right now. I'm not going to be convicted. What the hell?
00:26:46.680
This is not a sports game. Like just, this is a crazy person sitting there though, not legally,
00:26:51.540
but on the subject of craziness, there was video of her in the interrogation room at the police station
00:26:57.800
doing a headstand. And I want to ask you why, why did she do this? They left her alone in the
00:27:06.300
interrogation room for the listening audience. She goes down, headstand, legs up against the wall.
00:27:11.400
She's got no shoes on. She's in civilian clothes. She holds it for 30 seconds. They said she then
00:27:17.000
began to walk around the little interrogation room and sing a Dido song, uh, and search through the
00:27:22.080
trash. So Mark, what's that about? Well, whenever I've done that, Megan, um, I have no idea.
00:27:29.100
I should know what that means. That's a nut job. Is she going for an insanity thing? That's my first
1.00
00:27:36.500
thought was, is she trying to look like a nutcase in the most serious circumstances she's doing
1.00
00:27:41.200
headstands? No, no, no, no, no, no. I eliminate that. Listen, of all your theories, that one I don't
00:27:46.520
like because that would mean this narcissist who has consistently said that it wasn't her. She wasn't
00:27:52.980
there. I was framed like the Mona Lisa. She's not going to then say I'm nutty. I'm crazy. I did it.
00:27:59.100
But I did it because I'm, you know, I don't know right from wrong and I have a mental illness
00:28:02.860
or defect. There's no way that that's what she was doing. So could it just be, she's been in there
00:28:07.600
for hours and somehow in her apartment, she does that. I don't know. There's women who do headstands
1.00
00:28:13.900
like that for some purpose, I think. Right. Isn't that part of some pose that somebody might do?
00:28:19.520
Yeah. I mean, it could have been a stress reliever. I don't know. It could have been a stress
00:28:22.180
stress. I'm sure she was stressed. Um, you heard in that interview with inside edition,
00:28:27.380
she claimed for the first time, two intruders killed Travis and that she was there as well.
00:28:33.280
The ones she would never be able to pick out of a lineup. Um, she continued to claim a home invasion
00:28:39.860
and that we'd been there having a consensual sexual interlude using the camera before the
00:28:45.980
intruders got there. The camera is one of the most interesting things about the whole day.
00:28:50.700
They took pictures of each other. She took pictures of him post injury, like post at least
00:29:01.480
one picture they say of it was of him in the shower, like while he was being attacked. And so
00:29:07.220
we have crime scene photos that the police took that show us actually what happened to him. But
00:29:10.500
the reporting was that there was at least one photo post initial injury. How does this person
00:29:15.960
leave the camera there? And I think they eventually found it like in the washing machine or yes. I'm
00:29:23.180
glad you said that I was getting that vibe. It was either washing machine. God, I'm thinking back all
00:29:27.100
these years. It was either washing machine or dryer. So I think it was the washing and somehow the, um,
00:29:32.960
I don't know the little disc or whatever they use was still good. And they were able to get those
00:29:37.340
photos. And again, once that evidence came in, that's it. She's done all our story.
00:29:42.920
I don't get it, Mark. She leaves. She's got all the time in the world. She leaves. They don't find
00:29:47.320
the body for five days. She knows there's a camera with all these photos of her at a minimum with him
00:29:54.340
moments before he dies. Now, why? Washing machine. She thinks washy, washy. Bye bye. That's what I
00:30:01.760
think happened. Why wouldn't she just take it with her? I don't get it. It's too stupid. Is she a moron?
00:30:08.260
She left a lot of clues and she's serving a life sentence. I wouldn't put her up there with
0.96
00:30:11.860
Einstein. Yeah. She gets arrested. She goes on trial once she takes the stand. And was it a
00:30:22.540
surprise? Do you remember? Because the prosecution went on for two weeks before the defense had to
00:30:27.400
offer its side. Was it a shock when she took the stand? I don't think I was shocked. No. Um,
00:30:34.880
in fact, the type of person that she was very outspoken, very passionate. I think she needed to,
00:30:39.960
I think that she, I think it was expected. I don't think I was shocked. Okay. Because somebody's
00:30:46.100
going to have to say what happened inside of that room and she's going to have to admit she was there
00:30:51.240
now, thanks to the photographic evidence. Yeah. And also anytime there's any element of
00:30:57.280
self-defense, which is pretty much what she was saying, that she was attacked and then she,
00:31:01.640
you know, had to do something that, that, that can't be brought up by a lawyer. You got to put them
00:31:05.580
up there. Okay. Cause, because she started with intruders to inside edition. Uh, she continued
00:31:10.640
with home invasion. Uh, and you know, I was an innocent victim that saw him, you know, get
00:31:15.820
attacked. And then she switched, she switched to Travis attacked me and I killed him in self-defense.
00:31:25.220
She, in August of 2010, she submitted a request to the court to have letters allegedly from Travis
00:31:32.420
Alexander admitted into evidence. The letters were meant to help prove her new theory of self-defense.
00:31:38.580
The prosecution objected saying the defendant argues that the letters are relevant to her claim
00:31:42.860
of self-defense and that she was a victim of previous sexual and physical abuse by Mr. Alexander,
00:31:47.480
but they denied that. And they said that these letters should not be allowed. Um, her new theory was
00:31:54.140
that Travis Alexander became angry when she dropped his camera and she was forced to kill him in self
00:32:02.060
defense. That was ultimately Mark, what she did claim in front of the jury. Was it not?
00:32:07.280
That's all that was left. In other words, okay. The two intruder theory didn't work. Everything else
00:32:12.860
didn't work. Then you're left with, all right, I'm there. I can either do insanity, which works in a
00:32:18.420
fraction of 1% of the cases. And in this case with all the planning and all the, you know, lies after
00:32:24.420
the fact would absolutely not work. So by, you know, the same way I took the bar exam, I might not have
00:32:29.540
known the answer, but I eliminate those that definitely aren't the right answer. And what's
00:32:33.180
left is the only thing I got to go with. That's what happened. She starts to try to demonize
1.00
00:32:38.500
Travis. He abused me. He sexually pressured me. He treated me like I was his sexual play thing.
00:32:47.020
I didn't enjoy it. He was this Mormon who, you know, made me do dirty things that I didn't want to do
1.00
00:32:52.760
because he, whatever, he had some beliefs that he didn't want to cross. Here's some of that.
00:32:57.480
Okay. We have, um, first of all, she accuses him of being a pedophile just to set the jury's
00:33:03.000
expectation of him, you know, where she wanted it. Right. Absolutely. No proof of that whatsoever.
00:33:08.200
Other than her weird word here, that is sought for. I walked in and Travis was on the bed masturbating
00:33:15.440
and I got really embarrassed. It was a picture of a little boy. Oh, five ish, five, six. I'm not a good
00:33:25.960
judge of age. He was dressed in underwear, like briefs. I was frozen there for a minute and I just
00:33:35.540
ran. I didn't stay. I felt nauseated, ran inside and threw up in the bathroom.
00:33:40.900
That's a clip from HLM, which is why there's music over the weird testimony, but yeah. So she tries
00:33:47.560
to condemn him as a pedophile before she gets started and had Spider-Man pajamas ordered to
00:33:53.000
the house. Like she was very specific. She's dangerous because she's not an idiot. I mean,
0.96
00:33:58.020
she's dumb, but she's not an idiot. I don't know what that means, but you know what I'm saying?
0.93
00:34:01.100
She's very cunning. She's not a criminal mastermind. What's that? I said, she's not a criminal
1.00
00:34:07.260
mastermind, but that doesn't mean she's, um, not smart. She's correct. She's creative. She's,
0.94
00:34:14.200
you know, cunning. She, she plans these things out. She had plenty of time to, to plan how she was going
0.52
00:34:20.620
to, um, lower him in the eyes of the jury. And, and you dig from the pedophile card deck,
00:34:27.020
that's about as low as you go. That was the worst. So then she tries to say that she had to give him
00:34:33.720
certain forms of sex because he was a Mormon and this is what he required of her. I'll let her tell
0.99
00:34:41.140
it. Uh, this is Sot 5. Sex is sex. There's just different ways to have sex. And it seemed like,
00:34:48.680
it seemed like Travis was kind of, um, I don't know how to put it. Um, but it just seemed like he
00:35:03.440
sort of had like the Bill Clinton version, whereas over here, it seemed like, you know, oral and
00:35:10.260
anal sex were also sex to me, but not for him.
0.95
00:35:17.640
So now she's Jody, the librarian, right? She's got her little glasses on. He made me do it this way.
00:35:23.380
And the other way that's pedophile, right? So she, this is the defense. And this is one of the reasons
00:35:28.540
why America was riveted. So transparent what she's doing to me anyway. And I think to the jurors also,
00:35:35.560
but you still got to do it. Uh, you know, you, you dealt the cards that you have, you got to play
00:35:40.320
them and, and you have a, a horrible defendant, but there's no other way to advance that ridiculous
00:35:47.120
self-defense theory. Well, is that true? I mean, if you had been her defense attorney,
00:35:54.940
Not write a tell all book and get disbarred. We'll get to that.
00:35:58.540
Um, uh, what would I do? Probably what happened here? I would, um, it would be obvious painfully
00:36:04.680
to me that my client is guilty as they come. And I would say to that person, um, first of all,
00:36:11.720
there might be offering you life. Um, you might want to take that instead of risking the debt penalty,
00:36:16.760
try to persuade her that her chances are very low of prevailing. Um, she, the narcissist would say,
00:36:22.120
I'm not going to be convicted. So I'd go and I'd say, okay. And to myself professionally, I'd say
00:36:26.680
winning is defined by doing everything I can to achieve the best possible outcome for this client.
00:36:32.200
Whether they say guilty or not guilty is not in my control. And so testifying is her option.
00:36:37.420
She wants to testify. She testifies. In other words, yeah, I might lose this case. And you know
00:36:41.960
what? I'm fine with that. Hmm. This is the problem. I mean, basically you try to cut a deal
00:36:47.920
with a client like this because there's just no question that the jurors are going to find her
00:36:53.420
guilty. Um, Juan Martinez was the prosecution. And I, one thing I do remember is you did not like
00:37:00.560
him. You did not like the way he behaved. Listen, the main reason why I accepted your invitation
00:37:06.460
is because I get another crack at talking about his cross-examination. Okay. So let's set it up
00:37:12.940
before, before we play the soundbite of that. Um, he had two weeks to present his case. It's
00:37:19.040
kind of open and shut. What should he have done? What, what would you have preferred to see a
00:37:24.340
prosecutor do? Okay. Ready? Yeah. And I'm talking to the Murdoch, uh, prosecutors, you know,
00:37:31.060
everybody gives both Juan Martinez and those guys such accolades and they did good things. I'll give
00:37:36.620
them credit for that. I'm merely talking about cross-examination, which is an art form.
00:37:42.500
I have taught my students that you don't wing it. You carefully craft every single question that
00:37:50.060
you're going to ask, knowing that it could go this way or this way. And then you are ready with
00:37:54.420
the follow-up. Isn't the fact that on such and such a day, you said this and you boom, boom, boom,
00:37:59.080
boom, boom. And it's a lean filet mignon. You don't present a big fatty steak wandering around. Hey,
00:38:05.720
Mr. Martinez, your ego is not your amigo. You don't get up there and make it about you. You don't take
00:38:11.220
days. You don't, you know, try to grandstand like he did. I thought his cross-examination
00:38:18.440
was horrible. And people are going to say, oh, you're jealous, this and that. I'm not,
00:38:23.660
I don't care. I wish him well. I'm simply saying that it was a, uh, a D minus on the scale. And I'm
00:38:31.280
telling you this, don't go by the outcome. This case could have been won by, by rookie prosecutors.
00:38:36.300
I'm talking about how he did on cross both. He and the Murdoch prosecutors sucked in cross
00:38:42.680
examination. Yes. I've said it publicly. I know I agree with you. And now I have to tell you,
00:38:48.940
I listened to some of these friends of the Murdoch prosecutors on their little podcast and
00:38:52.500
they're like, oh, people just didn't get it. They just didn't get how brilliant that cross was.
00:38:56.480
It's like, no, people know how to do a proper cross examination and they could have, it would
00:39:02.920
have been over and done with. Had they done it properly? They let him go on. There was a chance
00:39:06.900
the jury could have bonded with the guy. They took unnecessary risks in that cross of Alex. I agree
00:39:12.000
with you. Uh, okay. So here's one, you don't take credit because the guy, either the guy, or in this
00:39:17.400
case, Jody looked bad. Oh, look at me. I made her look bad. She would have looked just as bad
1.00
00:39:22.920
without the opportunity to then explain, humanize, go on and on. There's no need for that. There's
00:39:30.520
no reason to take a risk on a single question. Good lawyers carefully craft everything. We think
00:39:38.700
about everything we're doing. These guys look like they were winging it and they were that's
00:39:43.200
unacceptable. And you stay in control the whole time. You're the one who's speaking that witness
00:39:47.480
is just there to say yes or no. That's it. You are the one who's telling the jury, the story,
00:39:51.000
you're really listening to the prosecutor with limited exceptions. When I know no matter what
00:39:57.260
they do or say they're hanging themselves. So every now and then I'll throw that in just
00:40:03.320
to switch it up because I know there's not a single answer that's going to score points
00:40:08.900
for them. Well, here's, let's let the audience get a flavor of Juan Martinez. Here is, uh, the
00:40:17.080
prosecutor, Juan trying to have Jody demonstrate Travis's alleged attack because she's claiming
00:40:25.140
I dropped his camera. Then he came for me. He chased me. That's why I had to kill him. Here's
00:40:30.820
just a little bit of that exchange. And then I'll play the feistier one.
00:40:33.640
Ma'am, if you would mind, stand up, go to the left and show me the posture of, uh, Mr. Alexander
00:40:42.740
immediately before he rushed you according to you. Um, as he was running... No, no, just
00:40:48.280
show me. That's what I'm asking you to do. Not talk. Show me. Show me the linebacker pose.
00:40:54.880
He got down and... Well, show me. Show me the linebacker pose. That's what I'm asking for you
00:40:59.080
to do. Okay. He went like that and he turned his head and grabbed my waist. Just like that,
00:41:04.180
correct? Pretty much. And he grabbed your waist, right? I can't say it's just like that, but that's
00:41:08.320
what I remember. Well, no, just, just, I want, without talking, just show me the pose.
00:41:14.440
He got down like that. Like that. All right, go ahead and have a seat then.
00:41:20.300
He's already annoying. Megan, let me add him. Okay. First of all, nobody likes a bully.
00:41:26.600
And I'm telling you, I've actually, during jury selection, excuse jurors, one woman I saw when I
0.53
00:41:34.000
was speaking, cause I was like, you know, I turned to this woman. I said, you know, you said you could
00:41:37.840
be fair to my client, but I'm really wondering, ma'am, I get a sense that, and I really questioned
00:41:43.360
her very firmly because I really wanted her out if she wasn't going to be on board with the plan
00:41:48.060
of being fair. There was a tear that fell down from her eye. And I realized in that moment, I asked her,
00:41:54.480
I go, is everything okay? She goes, I don't know. It's just your energy. Like, I feel like
00:41:58.880
you're, and I realized, oh my God, I'm too much for people at certain times. Similarly, what Juan
00:42:04.940
Martinez is doing is being so overly aggressive unnecessarily that that has to turn certain
00:42:11.240
jurors off. There's no reason to be that way in a case like this. That's the first criticism.
00:42:16.420
I've got more with what I just saw. Okay. There's more coming. Um, I'll play another soundbite and then
00:42:21.120
you can resume. Uh, there was this tense moment where she got after him for his style. You know,
00:42:27.040
it got to the point where she actually had to call him out. Here's a little bit of that on SOT7.
00:42:32.800
What factors influence your having a memory problem?
00:42:37.900
Um, usually when men like you are screaming at me or grilling me or someone like Travis doing the
00:42:42.500
same. So that affects your memory problems, right? It does. It makes my brain scramble.
00:42:46.180
So you're saying that it's the core, basically what you're saying is Mr. Martinez's fault that
00:42:52.540
you can't remember things that are going on. It's not your fault. I'm not saying that you're
00:42:57.260
saying that, isn't it? No, I'm not saying that. Is there something about a certain decibel of the
00:43:02.700
voice that creates problems? Decibel tone content, sort of a combination of those factors.
00:43:11.820
Oh, go ahead. God, it's so horrible. And the public doesn't understand because
00:43:18.960
they don't see great cross examinations when they're watching these high profile cases. I
00:43:23.880
haven't seen it recently. There's been some examples. There's some exceptions. None that
00:43:27.540
come to mind. Right. Johnny Depp, Johnny Depp's lawyer with, uh, what's that? Which one? Johnny Depp's
00:43:34.780
lawyer cross-examining Amber Heard. Very effective. Probably. I'm trying to remember.
00:43:41.440
I can't remember her name. She became a star. She's now an NBC contributor. But she did it exactly
00:43:46.040
the way we're discussing. It was textbook, Mark. It was, isn't this true? Isn't that true? And then
00:43:50.360
you did this and then this. Isn't that true, Ms. Heard? Your honor, please direct the witness to
00:43:54.900
answer my question and not, not to go on like this. You know, like she controlled the witness.
0.99
00:43:59.200
What's, what's her name, Steve? Camille Vasquez. Yeah. She was good. She was solid.
00:44:05.340
I agree. So two things. One in the first clip that you played, you're asking the defendant now
00:44:12.880
to give her version again, giving her another opportunity to then display for the jurors
00:44:20.580
why she's not guilty. I would never do that. I just make fun of it. And the second clip,
00:44:26.520
you look at him, he doesn't have those questions prepared. He's just winging it. That's what a rookie
00:44:32.400
lawyer does or someone who doesn't do cross-examination. It's not to say there's not
00:44:36.440
room for spontaneity, but I plan my spontaneity. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but that's
00:44:43.760
what I do. You sound like a great, like a great person to hang out with for a wife.
00:44:49.860
Not always. I'm talking about not in the bedroom, in the courtroom. Come on.
00:44:53.300
And on three. Okay. Let's talk about the fact that your friend Juan Martinez,
00:45:03.420
in addition to the defense lawyer, have both been disbarred since then. They've both lost their law
00:45:09.740
licenses. Yeah. Yeah. Different reasons. But can we back up a little bit? Because we left out one of
00:45:17.720
the biggest things in the trial. Well, yeah, I'm not done with the trial, but I do think it's interesting
00:45:22.060
that your friend lost his law license. And I think when people look at that cross-examination,
00:45:26.320
it's very interesting to know, quoting now the AP, that Martinez was accused later, this is why he
00:45:35.080
lost his law license, of leaking the identity of one of the Jody Arias jurors. He leaked the identity
00:45:42.500
to a blogger with whom he was having a sexual relationship, then lied to investigators about it.
00:45:48.800
That's what he was accused of. And of sexually harassing a bunch of female law clerks in his
1.00
00:45:55.680
office. He chose not to defend the charges and consented to disbarment. And what's happening?
00:46:02.220
What are you doing? It's a fog, Megan. Like Jody Arias, don't you remember? She was in a fog.
00:46:09.100
What? What? You don't think I bring props out for you? Come on. You got dry ice in your office?
00:46:16.460
It's happening. It's a little machine I gave to my son. It's like 13th birthday. But so appropriate,
00:46:24.360
really, when we're talking about the fog and how Jody Arias was in a fog. She didn't remember
00:46:29.780
anything. Don't you remember the famous fog? Come on. She was in a fog. The lawyer, too. All right.
00:46:36.980
Kill the fog. The lawyer, too, was in a fog as he was sexually harassing all the female law clerks to
1.00
00:46:42.860
the point where they were. They had to run. He was staring at the chest of some female employees
00:46:47.640
in the county prosecutor's office, looked them up and down as they walked away. Some female employees
1.00
00:46:51.200
would hide in the bathroom, duck into cubicles or engage in busy work to avoid encountering
00:46:55.580
Martinez. He got fired after 32 years as a prosecutor, then lost his law license. That's the man
00:47:01.020
I'm going to have to say, tip of the hat, your instincts were dead on.
00:47:05.300
What an unsubtle pig. You know, I read that to my wife. She's like,
1.00
00:47:08.720
ah, what a horrible. And I looked at it from her perspective. And and women don't like that,
1.00
00:47:15.500
you know, and what a horrible place to be, you know, where we're all day long. You have this guy
00:47:20.940
staring at you and he's not subtle. And it's just it's just horrible. You know,
00:47:25.340
it's creepy. Well, so you I mean, I think your instincts were dead on. You understood this is
00:47:30.100
not a good lawyer and this is not a good man. And you had a revolt in watching him that was
00:47:35.200
well placed. But the evidence was so strong against her, it didn't wind up hurting his case.
00:47:44.320
He did ultimately get a confession on the stand, which was rather helpful. I mean,
00:47:50.180
we knew that she killed him because she was claiming self-defense by that point. But here is the
00:47:53.860
moment of confession on the stand when she breaks down Sod 8. Would you agree that you're the person
0.68
00:48:02.600
who actually slit Mr. Alexander's throat from ear to ear? Yes.
00:48:14.720
Would you also agree that you're the individual that stabbed him in the upper torso?
00:48:23.860
Yes. And you're doing all of this, according to your version of events. You're doing this to this
00:48:36.600
individual after you have already shot him, right? Yes.
00:48:43.600
What do you make of that credit again? Megan, that was her whole theory. She was admitting that
00:48:52.940
she did the abhorrent acts for which she's accused. If anything, he could have artfully said, all right,
00:49:00.080
just so these jurors are crystal clear, the first stab that went into his body, you did that not to
00:49:06.280
strangers that you initially said, these two intruders, right? Then another jab and then
00:49:11.780
another jab. This one over here by the heart. That was you, not somebody else. And then he could
00:49:16.780
have gone on and on and on about every stab that she did. And then to really highlight the brutality,
00:49:23.080
especially since he's going for the death penalty after. So you really want to highlight it. The best
00:49:28.680
he had was you stabbed him in the torso. Yes. Yes. No, 27 times. And then you did this or whatever
00:49:36.000
order he wants. That was, you're giving him credit. And yeah, okay. He did that. But again,
00:49:42.100
it was, wasn't the most effective. He lost a huge opportunity.
00:49:46.280
That's a good point. Drive it home. And I found the medical examiner's testimony that I was looking
00:49:50.240
for earlier. Kevin Horn testified about the stab wounds and said, the slash wound to Travis's throat
00:49:57.200
was three to four inches deep and went to the spinal cord in the back of the neck, had two major
00:50:02.940
vessels that had been sliced. He would have lost a great deal of blood very quickly and then lost
00:50:08.860
consciousness within seconds and died a few minutes later. Uh, and then of course she shot him as well,
00:50:15.200
but he talked about the wounds to Travis's hands. That must've been before the fatal injury. So the guy
00:50:20.120
fought for his life. He must've been terrified. This person he trusted who was, you know, he was
00:50:25.260
undressed with had had this interlude with surprises him in this place. That's supposed to be,
00:50:31.580
you know, inviolate the shower, my God. Um, so you're right. And, and his failure to bring home
00:50:36.920
the brutality did come back to haunt him at the penalty phase. Yeah. I'm still actually thinking
00:50:43.460
of ways that I would have done this differently. I would have said, I'm sorry, Ms. Arias. I see that
00:50:47.680
you're crying. Do you need a moment? And by the way, Ms. Arias, were you crying? Stab number seven,
00:50:52.640
were tears running down your eyes? Then when you did this, were you crying then? Okay. Do you need
00:50:58.420
time? I'll ask the judge if you need a few minutes, but I'm not going to let her hide her face in that
0.99
00:51:03.240
tissue and put on that act. Ms. Arias, can you look at me? I'm asking you some questions. If you
00:51:07.940
need time, I'll give you some time. She's hiding her face. The jurors need to judge her credibility,
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00:51:12.880
your honor, assuming the judge wouldn't allow me to, to, you know, control her that way. I'd go
00:51:17.260
sidebar and say, judge, they're judging. She's hiding her face. I want them to see her face.
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00:51:21.160
She needs time. I'll give her time, but I'm not going to let her bury her face when I'm asking her
00:51:26.320
to talk about the most intimate of brutality that she committed. No way. That's a good point. Does
00:51:32.480
anyone have a scrunchie? Who's got a scrunchie? Let's get that hair back. No, you're right. That
1.00
00:51:38.820
was clearly a tactic. Well, the jury didn't buy it because after she'd been on the stand for,
00:51:46.040
they say, 18 days, 18 days between direct and cross-examination, many felt that was a tactic
00:51:51.840
by her defense lawyer to create a bond between Jody and the jury to where they could not
00:51:57.000
vote for death. Do you agree that was a strategy?
00:52:01.400
100%. And let me just say this. I just finished a federal trial. My client wanted to take the
00:52:06.640
witness stand. My direct was extremely long. Number one, I'm humanizing my client. Number two,
00:52:14.600
there was a lot to talk about, right? Number three, it is difficult when they don't know who
00:52:21.260
your client is. The prosecutors will always call them the defendant. I'm here to humanize my client.
00:52:26.600
And yes, in that case, they want to slaughter her. They want to kill her, right? The ultimate
00:52:31.120
sanction. So that serves a purpose. Kudos for the defense lawyer, not the prosecutor,
00:52:36.820
the defense lawyer. I don't care how long he takes. As long as it's productive and it's routine,
00:52:41.720
they've rehearsed it all. It's choreographed. She could look great on direct, long, long, long,
0.54
00:52:46.780
long. Cross, not the same. What do you mean? Cross needs to be tight. It needs to be planned out.
00:52:56.820
It shouldn't go for more than a day. And certainly within that day, I'd say a few hours,
00:53:02.700
you can make your points. That's it. Days? It's just a Juan Martinez show? This isn't about you,
00:53:10.360
dude. Stop making it about you. You don't want to prolong the relationship between this person
00:53:15.960
and the jurors any more so than the defense lawyer did on the direct. All right. So
00:53:20.160
the jury gets the case. Ultimately, the jury was read in court. Here's soundbite nine.
00:53:26.820
State of Arizona versus Jody Ann Arias. Verdict, count one. We, the jury, duly impaneled and sworn
00:53:33.200
in the above-intitled action upon our oaths do find the defendant as to count one first-degree murder
00:53:38.940
guilty. Five jurors find premeditated. Zero find felony murder. Seven find both premeditated and
00:53:49.380
felony. Signed, four person. Is this your true verdict? So say you want it all?
00:53:54.900
I mean, it wasn't a shock. She actually looks kind of surprised to hear the verdict.
00:54:02.800
It wasn't a shock to anybody. Don't credit her with having real emotion and equating whatever
00:54:08.100
she just did to how you and I, she's in a whole different area code psychologically. I don't know
1.00
00:54:13.320
what that was. I don't. Right. We don't. More acting. Well, then, then we moved on to the penalty
00:54:18.800
phase. Will she get life in prison or will she get the death penalty? And that is in Arizona is up to
00:54:25.900
the jury, uh, at least on the initial go round. And so the, the jury had to wrestle with that.
00:54:33.220
She got to say how she felt about the death penalty in an interview with Fox 10 Phoenix,
00:54:40.520
the week she was found guilty. Listen to this. Not 11. I believe death is the ultimate freedom. So
00:54:46.520
I'd rather just have my freedom soon. As soon as I can get it. So you're saying you actually prefer
00:54:52.220
getting the death penalty to being in prison for life. Yes. Then here she is.
00:54:58.920
Brilliant. Wait, wait, wait. Yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, no. Megan, come on. That was brilliant.
00:55:06.080
You like that. The ultimate in manipulation. That's what Nicholas Cruz should have done. I want
00:55:11.900
death, you know, for killing all those kids at Marjory Stoneman Douglas. Again, it's reverse
00:55:17.260
psychology. She doesn't want to die. She doesn't want to be a death row. She's going to be the,
0.68
00:55:21.840
the queen in, in, in prison. She wants to live out her life. And so she just does the twist. That's
1.00
00:55:28.860
the ultimate manipulation for that. I'm sure. Hmm. So she, she did it, um, with the jury as well.
0.80
00:55:37.680
A couple of sounds of addressing. We'll start with 12.
00:55:41.040
This is the worst mistake of my life. It's the worst thing I've ever done. It's the worst thing I ever
00:55:49.720
could have seen myself doing. In fact, I couldn't have seen myself doing it before that day. I
00:55:54.920
wouldn't even want to harm a spider. I'd gather them up in cups and put them outside to this day. I can
00:56:02.660
hardly believe I was capable of such violence, but I know that I was. And for that, I'm going to be
00:56:08.240
sorry for the rest of my life. Probably longer. Oh Lord. All right. Let me add on to that.
00:56:16.140
One, I'm offended for her making me feel guilty for killing spiders. Very offensive. Um, and number
00:56:21.780
two, come on. She's again, she's, I see how manipulative she is. I keep coming back to that
0.99
00:56:28.300
word. And she couldn't drum up any real tears either. It's like, if you really are unjustly convicted,
00:56:35.580
it's you, you just look and sound entirely different here. She is. Um, one more thing
00:56:40.380
bothers me. I got to get these things off. I'm sorry to keep interrupting, but like, if I don't,
00:56:43.540
I'm going to think about them later, please mistake. I can't stand on people called like
00:56:48.160
something as complex and abhorrent and as planned out. And as, you know, just gory as a mistake,
00:56:55.760
right? 27 stabs. Those were mistakes. Like, like Hitler calling the Holocaust, you know,
00:57:01.120
an inconvenience, you know, a minor blemish on my record, you know, like stop minimizing
00:57:06.080
things. It's not a mistake. Right. That's a good point. Like what, what was the mistake?
00:57:10.780
The three inch, you know, cutting of the carotid artery after you stabbed in 27 times, like the
00:57:15.800
number, number two through 26. Those were the, like in any event, um, now here she is asking
00:57:21.220
them for, uh, well, you'll listen, you'll hear 13. I've made many public statements that
00:57:28.140
I would prefer the death penalty to life in prison. Each time I said that though, I meant
00:57:34.200
it. I lacked perspective until very recently. I could not have imagined standing before you
00:57:40.060
all and asking you to give me life. To me, life in prison was the most unappealing outcome
00:57:47.620
I could possibly think of. I thought I'd rather die, but as I stand here now, I can't in good
00:57:55.020
conscience ask you to sentence me to death because of them. Asking for death is tantamount to suicide.
00:58:05.800
Either way, I'm going to spend the rest of my life in prison. It'll either be shortened or not.
00:58:11.280
She was pointing to her parents when she said because of them. So a change of heart, Mark.
00:58:19.220
Yeah. How convenient. I just, that's just so silly. I don't even have anything to say. I think
00:58:24.740
I've said it already. Manipulate. This person is a household name. I mean, think about that. This
00:58:28.320
woman is a household and most people in America know who Jodi Arias is because the media took to
1.00
00:58:33.440
this case like mods to a flame. She was the star. She's a sociopath. You can see, it's fascinating to
0.99
00:58:39.620
see the mind in, you know, working, like doing its manipulation. And you know what? It worked
00:58:46.540
because the jury ultimately did not sentence her to death. They were, it was a hung jury. And then
00:58:51.860
they brought in another jury to try to decide. And they too could not decide on giving her death and
00:58:58.740
without a unanimous vote for it, you don't get it. And that's why she got life in prison without the
0.95
00:59:03.640
possibility of parole where she is right now. What we don't know is the split, right? Was it one
00:59:09.740
lone juror? Was it a few? Likely it was a few because, you know, there was a lot of mitigators.
00:59:15.600
I didn't see any of that testimony, but you know, the lack of priors, um, I don't want to start naming
00:59:23.200
them because it'll look like I'm being sympathetic, but whatever the defense said, there was stuff to
00:59:27.540
work with here. You know, the crime was especially heinous, atrocious, and cruel and cold calculated
00:59:33.160
and very premeditated. This, the state had that going for them, you know, everything else, you
00:59:39.100
know, the mitigators, it was probably a couple of people said, no, she should get life instead. And
1.00
00:59:43.500
then that's it. They only needed a few there. I mean, is it true that generally they don't like
00:59:48.720
to give you the death penalty if it's just one murder, as opposed to a serial killer or like the
00:59:55.680
guy who takes out his family, you know, something like that? There's that. And statistically,
00:59:59.960
you know, how many women actually get the death penalty, you know, it's very rare. And don't you
1.00
01:00:06.600
tell me that looks don't matter and how she acts. People consider that. They just do.
01:00:14.560
So we talked about the fact that the prosecutor is now disbarred and you mentioned it in passing.
01:00:18.700
Her lawyer too is now disbarred. What did he do?
01:00:22.500
This bothers me. Another reason why I was, I was looking forward to doing this. This really bothers me.
01:00:28.200
So he writes a book, a tell all and included in that book are intimate details that she shared with
01:00:35.800
him while he was representing her. He then writes this book and, you know, she's objecting to it
01:00:43.100
naturally. And apparently they knew about it. The bar did and said, listen, you're either going to,
01:00:50.140
for putting this out there, you're either, you have two options. One will suspend you for four years,
01:00:54.560
but you cannot then put this book out there. Or you can lose your law license forever, give it up.
01:01:02.900
And then, you know, obviously then you'll be free to publish that book. He chose option number two.
01:01:07.520
And I'm not going to out anybody, my wife, who said, good for him for putting that out there.
01:01:12.380
Because I'm sure many people feel that way. And I was so upset about that. Because yeah,
01:01:18.240
do I care that Jody Arias' thoughts are put out there? No, because I don't like Jody Arias. But
01:01:23.720
it's so much bigger than that. He is eroding the attorney-client privilege where now either my
01:01:29.720
clients or other future clients feel like, wait, is this going to be the lawyer who liked that guy,
01:01:35.060
that Nimrod? He's going to put it out there in some book to capitalize. And then that doesn't give
01:01:40.120
any confidence when anybody goes to speak to an attorney. I'm really bothered by it.
01:01:44.420
Hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing that the two of the main cast characters in this cast wound up
01:01:50.280
disbarred. And the third, the true star is behind bars for the rest of her life without the possibility
0.88
01:01:55.680
of parole. There have been some reports that behind bars, she's in a medium security prison.
01:02:02.420
She's been making friends and lovers and tattooing her name on her jail cell mates.
1.00
01:02:11.600
Lifetime is actually just now, 10 years later, coming out with a docudrama about Jody Arias and
01:02:19.160
the case and gets into some of that, like her life in jail. We managed to pull a clip,
01:02:23.640
Mark Iglarch, for the entertainment of the audience. Here's a bit.
01:02:27.020
A lifetime original movie ripped from the headlines.
01:02:32.240
Jody Arias killed Travis Alexander. Jody Arias. Jody. Jody. Jody. Jody Arias.
0.99
01:02:37.900
I'm Jody. You know her name. It's worth doing whatever it takes to gain my freedom.
01:02:43.580
You're the worst. We do what we have to do. But not this story.
01:02:47.760
When you get out, maybe you can help me get the word out about my innocence.
01:02:50.900
Sure, whatever you need. I thank God for you. I knew you came into my life for a reason.
01:02:55.560
Based on a true story. There is no question. Jody killed Travis Alexander.
01:03:01.000
This January. Everything you said was a lie. I was worried that if I told you what really happened,
01:03:05.480
I'd lose you. It's in the past now and I love you. I can't defend you.
01:03:11.800
Did you believe she was innocent? Yes. Was she innocent? Hell no.
01:03:25.560
Bad Behind Bars. She's manipulating half the jail.
1.00
01:03:36.700
I mean, you know, I was like, wait, that looks like her.
01:03:42.480
How are you able to make friends and, you know,
01:03:47.080
Yeah, she's probably living a pretty damn good life.
0.88
01:03:54.380
So that's much better for her. Orange is the new black, you know.
0.97
01:03:57.920
And then secondly, she didn't kill any children.
01:04:01.520
You know, in the pecking order, she killed a man that many think might have done something bad to her.
01:04:07.420
At least that was her story. So in prison, you know, she's at the top of the pecking order.
0.98
01:04:12.280
And with her manipulation and beauty, she's probably living large.
1.00
01:04:17.200
And when I say beauty, I use that in quotations.
01:04:24.860
Is it is is it possible to have a co-ed prison?
01:04:30.840
They said she met somebody named Donovan Baring while serving time.
01:04:36.860
Donovan was serving time for accessory to arson in the Maricopa County Jail,
01:04:45.260
Then this duo became really close and stayed in touch.
01:04:48.780
Afterward, Donovan, who I guess is a girl and Jody, they stayed tight.
01:04:52.060
Then they were at Estrella, another prison where this other gal, Tracy, met Donovan for the first time.
01:05:01.080
They say by their own admission, Jody used her good looks and sexuality to get what she wanted
1.00
01:05:05.100
and inserted herself into their union as well.
0.97
01:05:08.460
Although they never engaged in actual sex acts together,
01:05:11.520
she once delivered a striptease with Tracy for Donovan
1.00
01:05:15.200
and then often refused to leave their cell when they wanted alone time together
01:05:19.860
from getting them to manage her social media accounts.
01:05:24.320
To ultimately officiating their wedding ceremony.
01:05:27.680
She did it all for the couple, quoting from thecinemaholic.com.
01:05:37.760
Mark, once a master manipulator, always a master manipulator.
01:05:46.120
And I, too, by the way, found it confusing at first.
01:05:52.040
And then you play it along and you figure out what happened.
01:05:54.120
I think as an aside, I read she's got something going on with a guy on the outside.
01:05:59.080
And that's easy to do because there's nut jobs out there sending letters,
1.00
01:06:04.080
wanting to be with her, phone privileges, right?
01:06:07.340
And then eventually she's looking to get married to get the conjugal visits.
1.00
01:06:16.200
So it just goes to show you, though, the media is still obsessed with this case.
01:06:20.940
You don't always do a 10-year retrospective on every case.
01:06:23.200
But I remember covering this all the time that America was into it and wanted more,
01:06:30.520
And she's still providing material from behind bars.
1.00
01:06:36.320
When you look back and you say, OK, what lessons can be learned from this case?
01:06:42.540
OK, so number one, you never really know anyone.
01:06:48.380
And even when you think that you're a good judge of character, you never know.
01:06:55.020
So once you get the evidence, that speaks volumes.
01:06:58.260
Don't judge somebody based upon their demeanor, what they say and how they look,
01:07:02.320
which coincidentally is exactly what courts are about.
01:07:07.600
But, you know, the court of public opinion, wait, listen to all the evidence,
01:07:15.780
The second takeaway I got is, you know, I can't say enough about this prosecutor.
01:07:23.720
And by winning, I mean he got the guilty verdict that anyone would have gotten.
01:07:26.820
But his cross-examination to this day still was horrible.
01:07:31.140
I don't even want to put it in the same category as the Murdoch prosecutor.
01:07:35.440
His was not great, but Martinez's was to me offensive, you know, that he took a case that
01:07:43.120
was a slam dunk and just took days and days and days to do this horrible badgering bullying
01:07:52.720
We'll make arrangements to make sure that in a very important case that you prepare and
01:07:57.700
all the questions are right there and you've thought them out.
01:08:05.200
You know, that rule is that the jury is supposed to like you more than the defendant.
01:08:09.400
You know, that's your goal when you're examining somebody that they will like you, the lawyer
01:08:14.680
And that the way to get there is not usually to berate them, to shout at them, to telegraph
01:08:22.320
with every question that you have nothing but dripping disdain for them.
01:08:28.380
This is going to be deep and you're going to say it's flaky and hokey, but I think first
01:08:33.160
for you to be liked by a jury or anyone, you've got to thoroughly and unconditionally like
01:08:41.500
Well, it's interesting that he did turn out to be a bad guy.
01:08:45.420
You know, he did such a bad job and he wasn't likable in there.
01:08:48.800
And it's just always interesting when like the outward persona winds up matching with
01:08:56.260
It is an affirmation that maybe you can sometimes trust your instincts.
01:09:00.100
I don't believe you can't ever get ever know somebody.
01:09:06.840
I, I love Doug too, but I love what Doug has shown me Doug to be.
01:09:15.640
That's we've never let out, not necessarily consciously, but sometimes subconsciously.
01:09:19.920
So again, all we're seeing, and I adore my wife.
01:09:28.200
I, there's stuff I don't know about her and I love her for that too.
01:09:31.900
But again, all we know is what we know that turn back on the fog, the fog, the fog needs
01:09:52.740
I hope you enjoyed revisiting the Jodi Arias case with us tomorrow.
01:09:56.420
We bring you the woman who made it her mission to take down former subway spokesperson and
1.00
01:10:10.460
I have not been able to stop thinking about this episode.
01:10:15.940
I would love to correspond with you over what you hear.
01:10:32.560
And the woman who is my guest was at the center of it all.