00:06:45.940Right in the beginning, the Denver police offered to put two experienced homicide detectives on Boulder staff at Denver's expense for as long as they needed them.
00:07:16.640The detective's name was Tom Trujillo.
00:07:19.940He was one of the lead investigators in JonBenet's case.
00:07:22.520He just received an involuntary transfer to another division where he's going to be working the midnight shift, not a promotion, in addition to a three-day suspension.
00:07:33.420And they've basically said that he and another were not – they were not investigating, appropriately investigating several cases.
00:07:41.940They said JonBenet's case was not one of them.
00:07:44.780These are the cases that he's being accused of half-assing it on were not homicide cases.
00:07:50.700but he is being accused of not doing his job and not following through on leads and so on and other
00:07:58.280significant investigations do you feel you know validated at all by that well it in a way yes
00:08:07.080um we've uh we've known that he's been a problem and not really capable of uh thinking out of the
00:08:15.160And more importantly, his arrogance, I guess, and ego prevented anybody from coming in to help.
00:08:27.000You know, our system, the way it's set up, it's kind of crazy.
00:08:29.780But, you know, there's 18,000 police jurisdictions in this country.
00:08:33.360Each one's a little island of authority.
00:08:35.700And if crime happens on that island, it's up to the local police to deal with it.
00:08:41.160And with the acceptance of a few things like bank robberies, nobody can come in and help them unless they're invited.
00:08:48.200And that's a real crazy system because there's tons of qualified help that could have come in, wanted to come in.
00:08:57.740But unless they were invited and asked to come in to help, they can't.
00:09:07.840And that's very critical of the police department on that issue.
00:09:14.400Of course, because you see the bigger cities tend to have a higher homicide rate and thus more experienced homicide detectives and people who know how to preserve a crime scene and preserve evidence.
00:09:26.020That was one of the major problems right from the get-go with this, which let's take a step back now and set up the crime so that people have a better feeling for what they did and didn't do and why you really kind of want this case wrested from them right now.
00:09:44.860You know, there should be a statute of limitations for the police.
00:09:46.780If they haven't solved it, they should be able to be compelled to give the evidence to the family or to somebody else who might be able to have a go at it.
00:11:00.100So you go over there and you go ahead.
00:11:03.300Well, I say the friends we visited have kids our age, our kids' age.
00:11:07.960And so they were buddies and it was a logical place to have a family get together.
00:11:14.260So what time did you get home from that dinner?
00:11:16.620Well, I think, if I recall, it was about 9.30.
00:11:23.520JonBenet had fallen asleep on the way home, and it was only maybe six blocks, but she was tired.
00:11:29.800She'd been up all day and having fun and playing, and so I carried her upstairs and put her on her bed,
00:11:36.440and then Patsy came up and got her ready for bed and tucked her in.
00:11:41.460So Patsy put on JonBenet's pajamas that night, and this would later become an issue.
00:11:46.480what she was wearing. What did Patsy put JonBenet in? I don't remember, quite frankly.
00:11:56.940I'd have to look at the pictures, but it was just nightclothes.
00:12:02.280But my understanding, the reason I ask you, Jon, is that I've been reading up on the case that
00:12:06.120there was an allegation that Patsy said she put her in a red outfit, like red PJs.
00:12:10.420And when she was found, she was in white. Is that familiar to you?
00:12:15.440Yeah. Well, I didn't know, but I don't know about the red nightgown. I hadn't never heard that, but when I found her, she had like a black and white pants and, and a top.
00:12:31.420Okay. So Patsy puts her in bed. So probably by 10 o'clock, JonBenet was in her bed.
00:16:44.860And we had taken him over to the neighbors before we went out to dinner because we were going to leave town the next morning and have a second Christmas with my older children.
00:16:53.860And then we had a reservation for the family on the Disney Big Red Boat.
00:17:00.740And that was our, you know, take place, you know, right after Christmas.
00:17:04.740So we took the dog and took him to our neighbors, and they were going to take care of him until we got home.
00:19:27.200And we had it looked at by a doctor who specializes in that kind of stuff somehow.
00:19:33.660And he said with 99% certainty, those are stun gun marks.
00:19:39.560But I think because we didn't hear anything, you know, you would think at least if this creature had come in and started to take Jomanea from her bed, she would have screamed.
00:19:53.220And we would certainly have heard that.
00:19:54.660Yeah. Even if he covered her mouth, you'd hear something, some sort of signs of a struggle. But if the stun gun were used, and of course, I know that you found her with duct tape on her mouth, that could have kept her quiet.
00:20:07.020All right. So let's back up. So Patsy comes downstairs early. They say it was 5.52 a.m. was that 911 call. So it was early in the morning. You say you were taking a trip.
00:20:18.820And was that your first sign that something was wrong?
00:20:22.020She finds this ransom note at the bottom of the stairs.
00:22:03.560I think it's worth reading so that the audience can understand how bizarre it was.
00:22:07.360Before we do that, I want to play the longer Patsy 911 call because to this day, even though you've been totally exonerated, people say, oh, the parents did it.
00:22:15.980You know how that, you know how it was done.
00:22:17.600That'll continue even after the killer's arrested and convicted.
00:24:43.220I tell people it's like when if you're with your child and you're at a department store or grocery store and you look around and the child's gone, you have this instinctive, just horrible feeling in your stomach that, you know, where's my child?
00:25:22.880And the moment of relief when you find your child well is overwhelming.
00:25:27.380And you kept waiting, kept waiting for that to happen.
00:25:31.840And you can hear Patsy, you know, waiting for it with the 911 operator and doing the only thing you can do at that point, which is pray to Jesus.
00:30:16.140I mean, I've been told, too, that in a way it's a gift because I've been told by handwriting experts that with that long of a sample, three pages, if we had the handwriting of the killer, it'd be very easy to conclusively say this person wrote this note.
00:30:35.380It's a big sample of their handwriting.
00:30:37.440What did the handwriting analysts say could be gleaned about the writing?
00:30:41.720Could they tell anything about age, gender, psychological, state, any of that?
00:30:48.300Well, we didn't get that from the handwriting people.
00:30:50.620Typically, they just told us what their findings were.
00:30:55.820And they rank their findings on a scale of one to five.
00:31:00.940One is absolutely this person wrote it when they're doing comparison.
00:31:09.440They said, absolutely, you did not write it.
00:31:11.380Passy was a four-and-a-half, and she said, well, why four-and-a-half?
00:31:15.320And I was told that there's – depending on who you're taught to write, what generation, there are certain things that are kind of common, but they're not significant, and there are not a lot of them.
00:31:30.020So the police were told, hey, you guys better look somewhere else because we don't see – either parent wrote the note.
00:31:41.380Wait, but wait, wait, wait, back up, because I thought you said one means you wrote it, five means no way.
00:32:07.140So what about since then, the psychologist, the psychiatrist, I'm sure you've had people like that, FBI profilers who have read it, and were they able to glean any sort of a profile from it?
00:32:17.960Yeah, John Douglas, who started the whole FBI profiling program and is pretty much considered the top of the heap as far as that skill set and accomplishments.
00:32:30.960We spent a couple, three days with him early on because our attorneys asked him to spend some time with us.
00:32:39.280and um but his conclusion was and prediction is it's a young person fascinated by movies
00:32:47.040you know probably in his 20s maybe early 30s um and he said this was not about john benet this
00:32:54.420was directed at you to hurt you john uh somebody is either extremely angry with you or extremely
00:33:03.760jealous of you and this was done to hurt you um and i thought well i couldn't possibly know anybody
00:33:11.580that i've made angry that to that degree and he said you may not even know who they are they've
00:33:18.240either observed you in the newspaper or you know whatever and they and developed this uh either
00:34:06.880Yeah. Yeah. Somebody who wanted to hurt you went in there to kidnap your child.
00:34:11.120Right. And that thought hadn't occurred to me in a good while because I thought, well, here you got two top experts saying, giving me two different theories, but they're compatible.
00:34:26.220But what about, I mean, the thing about just random intruder coming in that doesn't make sense, if you look at the note, is how do they know?
00:34:37.640The 118,000, how would they know your bonus?
00:34:40.460I mean, it has to be somebody who, and I realize there's a chance they just randomly picked the number that was your bonus, but it seems like a small chance.
00:34:46.900It seems much more likely somebody worked at your company or had reason to know that that was your number.
00:34:51.120Well, there's two ways I guess they could have known that.
00:37:02.280And we were just dealing with incompetence.
00:37:08.320Well, in Linda's case, not just incompetence, but maybe a desire to cover up her incompetence because she isn't she the one who said search the house after seven hours of sitting there?
00:37:19.600She didn't search the house. The foot patrolman who got there per the 911 call earlier, he didn't search the house adequately.
00:37:26.460She didn't do it. And that's the reason you you were put in the position of finding your own little girl.
00:37:33.700In fact, to show you what kind of environment she was working in, the chief of police said, we didn't treat this as a crime scene because it was a kidnapping.
00:37:42.320And you shake your head and think, where do these people come from?
00:39:02.920We had a lot of people trying to help.
00:39:05.000And I got a letter from a teacher of she taught English to non-English speaking people.
00:39:14.440And she said the misspellings in this are typical of a Hispanic person migrating to English based on her experience teaching them to read and write English and speak English.
00:39:30.840And I thought that was pretty interesting and possibly could explain that.
00:39:35.540And, you know, we were a subsidiary of Lockheed Martin and or at that time, just Lockheed.
00:39:42.600you know i take that you'll see well anyway lockheed martin bought lockheed at some time
00:39:46.700in there but we had to they required us to put a sign on the front of our building which is
00:39:51.980was downtown boulder uh a lockheed martin corporation and at the time i thought that's
00:39:57.440like waving waving a red flag in front of a bull boulder's an ultra liberal uh place and uh
00:40:06.580And to put a, I'm sure in their minds, a manufacturer of weapons sign in downtown Boulder was just inviting trouble.
00:40:20.640It made me nervous, frankly, to do that at the time.
00:40:23.500Right, and they referenced your company.
00:40:24.820We do respect your business, spelled wrong, spelled B-U-S-S-I, a double S, S-S-I-N-E-S-S, but not the country that it serves.
00:42:25.780We had people, you know, we hired two detectives to work this early on because we knew the police weren't capable of it.
00:42:35.040And, in fact, we tried very hard in the early days to get the case moved somewhere else to another jurisdiction.
00:42:40.360They could have put it in the sheriff's department's office, which is a competent organization, it was at the time, and had dual authority over it.
00:42:47.460We could have very easily had a sheriff's officer come to our home that morning instead of the city police department.
00:42:54.420And that was a tragic first mistake, I guess, or luck of the draw, that that's what happened.
00:43:04.300So, you know, it just wasn't ever properly handled and to this day is still not properly handled.
00:43:17.360Well, and the theory that it's someone who didn't like you, because, of course, the other theory is that it's some pedophile, right?
00:43:23.260Well, those are the two conflicting, and I thought at the time, conflicting theories between John Douglas and Lou Smith.
00:43:33.360Well, I thought we were talking about someone who knew you versus random intruder, but random intruder doesn't necessarily mean pedophile there to get your little girl, right?
00:43:43.380Because that's one of the questions in the case about whether she was the victim of somebody who was a pedophile or whether it was somebody who just hurt her, right?
00:43:53.460Because it was unclear, forgive me for the details, John, but it was unclear whether she was sexually penetrated by a man.
00:44:02.760Well, first of all, this was not a random intruder.
00:44:07.460This is somebody who had watched us, knew what our patterns were, knew we were going to be out that evening, left the note on the back stairway, which is the stairway we always use, but would not have been obvious to somebody that just came into the house.
00:44:25.660We had a front stairway, but we never used that.
00:44:29.700And so why did they leave the ransomware on the back stairway?
00:44:32.260How did they know that's where we would be coming down in the morning?
00:44:37.460Um, so it would have, I mean, there's some elements where somebody could have come into
00:48:34.920We're going to discuss all of that with John, plus the neighbor Amy, a young girl who was sexually assaulted by a man in her bedroom in the middle of the night, just months after John Benet.
00:48:44.380Wait until you hear what the police did in that case.
00:48:48.160so john on the subject of the the ransom note before we leave that there had been a draft
00:48:58.640addressed to both of you then the final was just you it was written on a legal pad found in your
00:49:03.120home um and that's the question whether was it were there any fingerprints has it been tested
00:49:09.000for dna do you know where it came from in the house and was that area tested for fingerprints
00:49:14.440et cetera at the time i don't know uh i think the my feeling was that the uh forensics people
00:49:23.200that came in did a pretty good job in finding uh a palm print that was unidentified drawn to
00:49:30.720track to anybody uh um footprints that don't match any shoes of ours in the house things like that
00:49:39.640But whether this stuff was ever tested or not, I don't know.
00:49:43.440We know there's five or six, maybe seven items that were originally taken from the crime scene, sent to an outside lab for testing along with others.
00:49:53.820And five or six of those items were not tested.
00:49:59.720The police didn't want to pay for it because back then it was expensive to do DNA testing.
00:50:04.960But we know there's five or six items that have never been tested.
00:50:08.020And so what else was it? I do know that the forensic people spent about, the detectives spent a couple hours in the house and then told the DA, well, we're finished.
00:50:17.920And he said, you can't be finished. Get back in there.
00:50:22.640So they took a very cursory look at it and then were ordered back in by the DA.
00:50:28.000A forensics investigator experienced one told me they'll spend three days on a murder site looking for evidence, not two hours.
00:50:40.720So God only knows what was compromised.
00:50:44.400And I know Linda Arndt, the detective, also didn't secure the scene.
00:50:48.220She let your friends come over and come into the house.
00:50:50.760She sent you to look around as we discussed.
00:50:53.020And then after you found JonBenet, as I understand it, she actually moved JonBenet's body again from one spot to closer by the Christmas tree, which just should never be done when you're dealing with a homicide victim.
00:52:57.580And so we, then I went into the, the only other room in that basement was this, we called it a wine cellar, but it was an old coal cellar, dark.
00:53:12.500One door going into it, no entrances from the outside.
00:53:17.400And I opened the door and, of course, immediately found JonBenet.
00:53:21.180And, you know, I don't – we heard Lindar say on the media or on an interview that, well, I told him to go from top to bottom, and he started out in the bottom.
00:58:04.040The beauty pageant videos on endless loop, on endless loop.
00:58:09.820So talk about that for a bit and what that was like for you.
00:58:12.100Well, you know, the media, of course, jumped on it, but they were being fed information that was misleading, wrong.
00:58:20.920And we were told by Mary Lacey several years after she got into her position as the due DA, she said that was the police strategy that was defined to them by someone, whether it was the FBI or some wacko psychologist.
00:58:33.320put intense pressure on the family we know it's one of the two they're in the house either the
00:58:40.340father killed her or the mother did one of them will confess eventually if we put enough pressure
00:58:46.320on them and and mary lacy the da said that was their strategy to solve the case and so they
00:58:51.820released a lot of information misleading information incorrect information to the media
00:58:57.360And, of course, the media ran with it, and we were quickly convicted in the court of public opinion.
00:59:07.760We didn't know that's exactly what was happening, but it was confirmed by the DA.
00:59:12.820And the problem for the police was they did a great job of convicting us in the court of public opinion with the assistance of the media, but they couldn't charge us.
00:59:21.500We would have – it had been a bloodbath for them in a court because the evidence was quite contradictory to that as they got into looking at the evidence because they'd made their conclusion early on the day or the day after of JonBenet's murder and then went about, let's find the evidence to prove it.
00:59:41.680Well, the evidence they were finding was contradicted to that conclusion.
00:59:47.500And that became a problem for them because, you know, the media and the public was, you know, screaming, hey, arrest them, you know, charge them.
01:10:06.140A police officer comes in your room, which I assume is the first time in your entire life that a police officer has come in your room with a flashlight looking around and you still just stay in bed.
01:10:18.020To be fair, I didn't know it was a police officer.
01:11:18.480And just for the listening audience, Burke's answers are all said through what looks like a smile, which is one of the things his critics would react to.
01:11:30.380When he talks, he just naturally smiles.
01:11:33.660And those are just laughable criticisms.
01:11:37.480This was a violent, vicious, sexually assault case.
01:11:42.660Not something that a nine-year-old could even possibly do.
01:11:46.700so that's just it's really disgusting that um people jump to that kind of a conclusion
01:11:55.200let's let's move on because one of the other storylines as we touched on a minute ago was
01:12:02.240the pageants and whether a pedophile was you know she captured the attention of a pedophile
01:12:10.740And they do say that some of these pageants can be very attractive to pedophiles in the same way that, you know, most pedophiles, like if you want to find a pedophile, you don't go to like an AARP meeting.
01:12:22.420You know, they wind up, they volunteer for the Boy Scouts and they, you know, it's sad, but it's true.
01:14:03.580It was just something JonBenet enjoyed doing, and Patsy wanted her to try a lot of different things, which she did.
01:14:09.760But I always thought the people at these little pageants were just moms and grandmoms.
01:14:14.620And that's quite, there was one indication, of course, we learned later that, yeah, there's some, there was at least one guy there that wasn't there for his daughter based on some questioning that came out and some comments.
01:21:54.620She was strangled to death is my interpretation of what I've heard.
01:22:02.400And then struck with an object that created a pretty good crack in her skull, to be totally accurate.
01:22:16.900Um, so I don't think she could have possibly been alive, uh, that morning.
01:22:22.980Hmm. Okay. But that's another area of DNA that absolutely should be examined because there was a murder weapon.
01:22:33.400There was like a rope, they call it a garotte. And, um, it was tied to a little piece of wood.
01:22:39.040And so that one of the questions I know, John, people are asking is, do they ever, one of the, one end of the rope had a knot and one had two knots.
01:22:46.880or something like that. But the question was, did they ever untie the knots and test in there
01:22:51.740for DNA? To my knowledge, no. They had sent a number of samples like that to Bode Labs, which
01:23:00.120is an outside DNA lab, and for some reason chose not to test or not to pay for the tests of five
01:23:08.680or six items, one of which was the groat. And that's one of the things we're asking the governor
01:23:14.480to make happen is, let's get those items tested.
01:24:20.280I know, and you're on a push to have the governor remove this case from the Boulder PD
01:24:25.120and let these sophisticated DNA labs have access to this as opposed to relying on the same cops and detectives that have blown it thus far.
01:24:34.700There are really sophisticated DNA labs. Do you have confidence that if they had access to this box, for lack of a better descriptor, they could make whatever progress is possible, they could make it?
01:24:46.760And that's really all we're asking the governor to do is push the case either out of the boulder hands or require them to take this evidence to be tested by one of the one or two really cutting edge labs in this country and see what we get.
01:25:07.160If we can get some more good DNA evidence, then you take that evidence and put it in the public database and see what you come up with.
01:25:16.760This has been done in the last few years with remarkable success.
01:25:23.560And really what got me, had me, in my mind, take the gloves off with the police is we had spent some time with the regional FBI folks there in Denver and got a relationship where we said, look, this is what needs to happen.
01:25:40.040In fact, they're the ones who said, look, the government does not have the latest DNA technology.
01:25:45.960We'll get it eventually, but we don't have it.
01:25:48.900They certainly don't have it at the state level.
01:25:50.780And, of course, not even ridiculous to think they have it at the police level.
01:25:55.100They told us that we've got to get this DNA testing done by one of these one or two very cutting-edge labs outside and then use this new approach of genealogy tracing.
01:26:09.780And there's a hope that would move this case along to conclusion.
01:26:13.800they went to the boulder police and we're here to help we'd like to make this happen we'd help
01:26:18.900you you can take all the credit and the boulder police blew them off said no we don't need your
01:26:22.900help and that was when that was the game's over as far as i'm concerned we got to start when was
01:26:27.600that how long ago oh it's probably six months ago just so people know i had this woman on my show
01:26:35.620at nbc cc moore is her name and i know you you've you must have talked to her she's the one who was
01:26:41.540really at the center of this genealogy research. And what they do is they take a piece of DNA,
01:26:47.380and we already know that the DNA that they found on JonBenet did not produce a hit in the databases
01:26:53.240that are available, at least as of the last time they told us. So the perpetrator had not gone
01:26:58.900into the system yet, but they don't need that. All they need is for somebody related to the
01:27:06.100perpetrator to be in the DNA system. So if I were in the DNA system, let's say I wanted to do 23andMe,
01:27:12.600let's see what my ancestry is, whatever. Then if my results got uploaded on this other website that
01:27:18.820CC Moore uses that a lot of people who upload the DNA results use, because you get more information
01:27:23.700from it, it's not 23andMe, it's something related. So let's say they're sitting there, she can access
01:27:28.580them. She may not, you know, she can see a lot of things on there. And let's say I have a relative
01:27:33.300who commits a crime that relative's dna was not going to pop up like the maybe they committed a
01:27:39.920crime but the crime scene they didn't see him because he didn't he hadn't been arrested yet
01:27:43.880but mine will and this is what cc more she's like all i can tell you is that megan kelly is related
01:27:49.700to this killer and so i'm gonna build this big family tree around megan kelly i'm gonna figure
01:27:54.860out who her grandfather what great-grandfather look at her husband's side i'm gonna look at
01:27:58.300because all this stuff is publicly available she looks their wedding announcements and birth
01:28:01.140announcements. It's crazy great detective work. And she gets her man. I mean, CeCe Moore, it's
01:28:07.840like they saw a case a week doing this. And so if we could take a fresh look at the JonBenet DNA
01:28:14.320from that perspective, even if the guy's never gotten into the system from the last time they
01:28:20.060tested it, somebody might be in the system that could lead us to him. That's right. The COVID
01:28:25.100system that the fbi uses the federal database of criminals or arrested felons is fairly small
01:28:32.740and the states can contribute or not to that database uh it takes nine markers out of 15
01:28:41.180to be accepted in the database but it's it's of people that are have already been uh found
01:28:49.120criminal um or at least arrested for felonies and it depends on the state what that rule is but
01:28:55.500it's not a very big database and what the the the um public database of the like the 23andme
01:29:03.620both jan and i submitted our 35 dollars get our ancestry to that database they find a reasonably
01:29:13.300you know close match uh or something the least is interest of interest and they do
01:29:20.760almost a backwards uh uh family tree and then they find out hey here's a relative that lived
01:29:29.120in boulder in december uh 2020 1996 and uh then they start looking at that guy or that person
01:29:37.800and get his DNA and these remarkable success solutions to these old, old cases have been
01:29:45.060using that technique. And most of these people were not on anybody's radar.
01:29:51.700They weren't in the COVID or the federal database. And in fact, the Golden State Killer,
01:30:01.580which was, I think the first one found this way, was a 40-year-old case and he was a retired cop.
01:30:07.440So he wasn't in the criminal database.
01:31:33.880Yeah, well, we're definitely going to follow up with his office and find out what is his response, and we'll stay on it, and we'll annoy him to the point where he's going to have to respond, because I know a lot of people in media who would be very happy to help me annoy him.
01:32:20.760John, Dylan Howard put together an extraordinary podcast called The Killing of JonBenet Ramsey.
01:32:26.500And it's a 12-part series in which he took a very deep dive into possible suspects.
01:32:31.080In the case, I recommend it to everybody, and in part based off of Lou Smith's work and the work of his daughter.
01:32:37.720Having listened to all of that and cooperated with that, do you have a chief suspect?
01:32:45.280You know, it's easy to say, well, that's the guy based on circumstantial evidence.
01:32:50.820In fact, that happened fairly early on.
01:32:53.260A person was brought to our attention by his girlfriend, former girlfriend, and had some pretty compelling data that would lead you to believe, hey, this is the guy.
01:33:03.220In fact, I said that to our attorneys.
01:33:50.300One of the things Lou Smith suggested was that there was that window broken in the basement.
01:33:56.540Saw there was a scuff mark below the window.
01:33:58.680There was a suitcase there, which we talked about briefly, that wasn't normally there.
01:34:03.080And in it, they found a duvet, a Dr. Seuss book, and fibers of the outfit JonBenet was wearing that night, indicating perhaps the murderer might have tried to kidnap her or remove her from the scene in the suitcase, but it was too big.
01:34:20.240But that would explain quite a bit about the crime scene if only we had a talented investigator devoted to following up on these leads.
01:34:28.480The point is, the governor must get involved.
01:34:31.120The governor must remove this case from the Boulder PD.
01:34:33.660They must get the fibers and the DNA that is available to a qualified lab and start working with the family instead of against them after all these years.
01:34:41.480And the time we have left, how do you do it?
01:34:45.260Because I know you said you've forgiven whoever did this to JonBenet.
01:34:50.520And, Jon, it just seems like a mountain too high.
01:34:58.480over the few years after John Manet was killed.
01:35:01.380And I looked back at how I felt and progressed with that challenge.
01:35:08.360Certainly in the first couple of years, there was no forgiveness.
01:35:11.560In fact, I've told people, if you put this guy in the same room with me
01:35:15.860and I know he's the killer, he won't come out alive.
01:35:18.340And I would be able to do that with no remorse.
01:35:22.100And that's not right, but that's how I felt.
01:35:24.800And then I got to the point where I said, okay, well,
01:35:27.120forgiveness belongs to the victim. And I'm really not the victim. JonBenet was a victim. So only she
01:35:32.960can forgive. And that's, of course, not possible. And that kind of got me off the hook. And then I
01:35:37.580finally realized forgiveness is really a gift you give yourself. You release that anger and that
01:35:43.080desire for revenge. Doesn't mean you feel sorry for the, in our case, the killer. I still want
01:35:51.160I'm held to accountability to the extreme level of our justice system, but I've released that anger, and it still crops up every now and then, but it's a benefit to myself to release that in the form of forgiveness.
01:37:44.500And today, I'm very, very happy to be joined in just a bit by the author of the book that inspired the series, as well as, separately, the creator of the series, Dope Sick.
01:37:57.360Danny Strong is the director, executive producer of Dope Sick, and he joins me now.
01:38:01.640Danny, thank you so much for being here. You're the creator. You're the showrunner.
01:38:06.240And let me just kick it off with, you know, we're going to get into it, but it's basically about how the opioid crisis in America unfolded.
01:38:12.780what attracted you to that subject matter uh well first off thanks so much for having me on your
01:38:19.160show and uh you know i'm so thrilled you watched the show and we're so taken by it so so it's all
01:38:24.760very appreciated um uh it all began when a producer named john goldwyn had who's a really
01:38:31.240terrific producer he came to me and said do you want to write and direct a movie on the opioid
01:38:34.940crisis and i had read this new yorker article by patrick rayden keith that came out in 2017
01:38:41.480It basically blew the story up as far as the Sackler family's involvement with Purdue Pharma, with OxyContin in a very damning way.
01:38:53.700I think that that article was a major turning point in sort of the history of the opioid crisis and who was ultimately responsible for sparking it and setting the flames and then keeping that fire going for at least a decade, if not longer.
01:39:10.040And so I went back and I had reread the article and I read very closely this time as far as a potential adaptation or not adaptation, but just as a research.
01:39:21.480And I was fascinated, stunned, shocked, appalled.
01:39:26.260I then went on and got some books that had already been written on the opioid crisis, a book called Painkiller, a book called Dreamland.
01:39:35.460And my horror grew even more. And I just thought, I have to do this. I have to figure out a way to dramatize the story for as big an audience as I can, because this is one of the most stunning crime stories in the history of the country.
01:39:53.080And at the time, this was 2018 when I was really deep diving into it and Purdue Pharma and OxyContin, the prescribing had started to come down in the United States, but they were now using their same dishonest, manipulative, false techniques, advertising techniques and marketing techniques in foreign countries.
01:40:16.340So when I first started, I had viewed the show as a warning to the rest of the world that Purdue Pharma is coming to lie to you and to addict you to OxyContin. So that's that's sort of what sparked the journey.
01:40:30.520You come by your storytelling skills, honestly. It's funny because when I saw your name, I'm like, I know that name. I know that name. And I know you've worked with Jay Roach, who is, of course, the director of the movie Bombshell, which I have a connection to. I have nothing to do with the movie, but there was a person playing me in it. But that's not how I knew you. It was from Gilmore Girls, which you were on for a while playing Doyle McMaster.
01:40:57.540and but you've also written several several big movies right game change um recount and you you
01:41:03.100wrote the butler you you're a co-writer and maybe producer on um empire as well i mean like a lot of
01:41:09.200big hits uh in your past but thank you but this is like this is your project so it's got to feel
01:41:15.600different to you in a way yeah it was it was i knew that i would be doing heavy lifting i had
01:41:21.520directed an independent film before that had gone into sundance which was very exciting uh but this
01:41:27.280was on a much, much bigger scale as far as creating show running. Uh, I knew I was going
01:41:34.420to be directing the last couple episodes. Uh, and it was great to, to, to just sort of take the
01:41:40.780reins of it. And partly why I felt like, um, okay, this is a good project for me to do that
01:41:48.420with for my first time was because I was so passionate about it. And I was so enraged by
01:41:53.620what had happened. And it seemed like, well, if you're going to, you know, for me, I always worry,
01:41:58.640I always got a worst case scenario, right? You know, what's going to happen if the whole thing's
01:42:02.900a disaster and a massive failure. And so I thought, well, if this thing explodes in my face,
01:42:07.820I'd rather go down swinging on something that I feel really, really passionate about.
01:42:12.780This feeling is what makes you a success. They say that there was a Kaiser poll that said 56%
01:42:19.920of americans either know someone who is an addict or who died from addiction um i i feel
01:42:26.820like it's probably even higher than that um i i have someone i've revealed to my audience that
01:42:32.740someone in my family my my family of origin um fell into the opioid crisis and when a family
01:42:38.640member falls into it the entire family falls into it as you know you're as you know from being the
01:42:43.400storyteller of this series i wondered whether you had any personal experience that made you
01:42:48.060want to do the show? I didn't. And I'm so fortunate to be able to say that that sentence.
01:42:54.740I'm I don't know anyone close to me that had opioid use disorder. I myself have not fallen
01:43:01.800down any kind of rabbit hole like that. The rabbit hole I fell down was the rabbit hole
01:43:07.540of the crimes of Purdue Pharma and the culpability of the Sackler family. And that was a rabbit hole
01:43:15.320that a number of people have fallen down.
01:43:17.860You know, when I start talking about this
01:43:20.060to different people that have written books on them
01:43:22.520who may have had a personal experience with addiction
01:43:36.100You can't believe what this company did
01:43:39.800and how literally a group of, I don't know,
01:43:43.52020 people, 30 people from one family made billions and billions of dollars off of the suffering
01:43:52.320of an entire nation. And, you know, when you talk about how the whole family gets affected by
01:43:58.040this when it happens to one person, it's so true. You know, everyone talks about the statistics of
01:44:05.100Now it's over 700,000 people have died from some type of opioid overdose since the crisis essentially began.
01:44:15.140However, that number doesn't even begin to tell the story of the families that are devastated,
01:44:20.800the family members that that lose years of their life of suffering of loved ones who have fallen into this
01:44:28.280and the people that are still alive that didn't die from an overdose,
01:44:32.360but are either still struggling with opioid use disorder or lost years of their life to it and are now just trying to put the pieces back together.
01:44:41.760I mean, the sort of the victims of it continue to splinter on and on and on in a way that's extremely profound.
01:44:49.540I know many people think that the homeless issue that is plaguing so many major American cities is heavily sparked by the opioid crisis and people that have fallen into opioid use disorder.
01:45:00.500No, it's so true, because even if you're one of the quote lucky ones who doesn't get killed by an overdose, I mean, I've seen it happen firsthand. It changes you. It changes a person. It can at least radically to where the person you knew is all but gone, replaced by someone else who's a stranger to you, who you have to get to know and who that person, him or herself has to get to know.
01:45:24.840It's just like a new version of you that doesn't tend to be new and improved.
01:45:28.720Like these drugs do so much lasting damage.
01:45:31.920And then the drugs you have to take to get off of them and stay off of them can can do damage as well.
01:45:36.780It's just a cycle that even if you manage to put yourself out of it, it's very hard to shake the effects of it.
01:45:43.300And the movie and the book and this whole series of sort of research and writings about it are an attempt at accountability, at storytelling and explanation.
01:45:54.320How did it happen? And accountability. And what I loved about it, Danny, is when you go through it, you don't know you're part of a national story, right? You just think, oh, my God, something's terrible is happening in my family or to my people. And it took years, I think, for most of us who were sucked into it to realize, oh, my God, this was a thing. This was a national epidemic.
01:46:14.920And now this is the next piece, which is caused by specific individuals, because it was.
01:46:22.320And I agree with your demonization of the Sacklers, who we'll get into.
01:46:26.020So let's let's talk about the film itself, because you basically the characters are fictional, right?
01:46:32.140So, you know, you made them up, but they're kind of loosely based.
01:46:40.060I mean, the Sackler family, I use the real names.
01:46:42.180And then the key prosecutors out of the Western District of Virginia, the U.S. attorney there and two of his prosecutors, those are real people as well.
01:46:51.480Uh, and then the people in the town, Finch Creek, that is, it's a, it's a fictional name, Finch Creek. I wanted to do this sort of, um, every town, USA, uh, Appalachia, um, concept to, to have a couple of people, uh, be our victims that represented, you know, millions of people in that case.
01:47:14.920um the star uh originally in the in the sort of beginning episodes is a young female minor
01:47:22.700named betsy played by caitlin deaver who suffers an injury she's the daughter of a minor as well
01:47:28.320she lives with her parents she's not a drug addict she's not an alcoholic she's a sweet
01:47:33.340you know dreamy-faced young minor you know it's just such an interesting job for a young woman
01:47:38.860like that. Sympathetic character, for sure. And I love that you chose her because this was
01:47:45.420representative of, I think, the opioid crisis for most people. These weren't back alley deals.
01:47:51.900These were people who were prescribed a drug by a doctor they trusted to treat an injury that was
01:47:58.700real. And then the spiral came. Yeah, absolutely. And partly why I did this approach was because
01:48:06.960this is where Purdue Pharma, that was their phase one areas where they targeted, which were rural
01:48:14.440areas filled with people that had a higher prescription rate of opioids because they just
01:48:21.600got injured a lot on the job. So miners, loggers, farmers, those were those were basically the three
01:48:28.760areas that Purdue Pharma initially targeted. And so it was in southwestern Virginia, eastern
01:48:35.420Kentucky and rural Maine were kind of the ground zero spots. And I chose Appalachia and I chose
01:48:41.980mining. I thought it was very sort of emblematic of sort of our iconic view of how this all began.
01:48:49.620And I started watching YouTube videos of different people in these areas. And these YouTube videos,
01:48:56.600it's a technique I use for research because there's something so authentic about them.
01:49:00.680There are often amateur videos that are just taken by real people trying to put some kind of short subject documentary together about their lives.
01:49:09.700And I was so taken by so many of the miners and the pride they had and what they did and that there was this sort of magical connection to the mountains, the Blue Ridge Mountains, the mountains in Appalachia.
01:49:25.400And, you know, when I went on a research trip up there, I understood where that connection came from because they're really beautiful.
01:49:30.840It's just this very beautiful part of the country and very sort of isolated and on its own.
01:49:36.320So it seemed to me, oh, this is this is a great way into the story.
01:49:41.360And I, you know, in one of the videos, I saw this young woman who was a minor being interviewed.
01:49:46.740She struck me as someone who seemed like she was a lesbian.
01:49:50.400And I thought, wow, that's really interesting being a lesbian in a very conservative part of the country where that may not be as accepted as, say, it is in New York City where I live.
01:50:02.020And I just wanted to explore these different issues.
01:50:05.320and so what happens when the issue begins uh her arc begins about her sexuality and what that means
01:50:12.820to her and her family but it quickly takes a left-hand turn when um the drug use completely
01:50:21.000consumes it and takes it over and that was so very much kind of the early stages of me putting
01:50:25.840this together and i do want to throw a huge shout out to beth macy and her incredible book dope sick
01:50:32.440We ended up getting teamed up after I'd come up with these initial ideas and I read the book and I loved it. And Beth has been an incredible part of the project, the process. She was in the writer's room and her and I kept doing interviews all the way throughout the entire process. So she gets a big shout out to Dope Sick author Beth Mason. Anyone listening to this, if you've seen the show and you haven't read the book yet, I highly recommend it.
01:50:55.580Yeah, she's coming up next. So they're going to meet her momentarily. But she does get it. I mean,
01:50:59.420she she sort of her book is not totally dissimilar from Hillbilly Elegy by J.D. Vance. You know,
01:51:06.080it just takes a hard, honest, and sometimes unfavorable view of Appalachia and what's
01:51:13.980happened there. And it's not it's not critical of the people. It's just there's joblessness and
01:51:18.320there's disability claims and there's globalization. And there are all sorts of things that have
01:51:22.560affected this part of the country that gets ignored too often. And then people are like,
01:51:27.120how did Trump get in office? And it's like, well, it's complicated, but it's understandable if you
01:51:32.380take the time. Okay, so you've got, she's, Betsy is one of our main stars. And then you've got Dr.
01:51:39.740Samuel Phoenix, Phoenix, right? I just want to make sure I'm pronouncing it right, because I
01:51:44.320know I'm a Sam. And that's played by Michael Keaton. And I, this character is trying to help
01:51:49.560his community. He loves West Virginia. He loves Appalachia. He loves the minors. He's trying to
01:51:54.220help. But like so many doctors in the opioid crisis really didn't. Right. He was pulled in
01:52:01.080by Purdue Pharma as so many real life doctors were. And it's dazzling, snazzy drug reps who
01:52:09.760are saying all sorts of things about this drug, which is so exciting that they fooled even the
01:52:15.660doctors, which was a critical part of their plan. Yeah, 100 percent. I think there's this perception
01:52:22.520of that all doctors that prescribed OxyContin were evil pill mill doctors that were, you know,
01:52:30.500essentially legal drug dealers. And those people certainly did exist. And there were there were
01:52:35.520many pill mills and a number of people that have been arrested and gotten massive jail sentences,
01:52:40.60030 years, 25 years. However, I believe that the majority of the doctors prescribing OxyContin
01:52:47.920were not that. They were completely well-intentioned doctors that believed what Purdue Pharma had told
01:52:55.000them. And even the sales reps at Purdue Pharma believed, at least initially, the information
01:53:01.520that they were given. There was basically this elaborate con in which Purdue Pharma,
01:53:06.800Well, I'll start with these independent pain societies. These independent pain societies were creating this new movement that pain has been wildly undertreated in this country and that opioids are much safer than we have perceived them for decades.
01:53:25.140And that this movement went so far as to to turn pain as the new fifth vital sign.
01:53:31.840So this was a huge campaign that was happening late 80s into the mid 90s into the late 90s.
01:53:38.160Right. During this whole period that coincided with Purdue Pharma coming up with a new opioid that they were marketing as non-addictive, which tied into the national movement of, yes, and opioids are much safer.
01:53:51.820And then these pain societies would put out studies. Certain doctors would write articles that would end up in these really respected news, medical news journals.
01:54:01.600And it was and it gave this elaborate, elaborate appearance that this there's a whole new movement in medication and in pain treatment.
01:54:09.140And what we have learned is that these pain societies were not independent.
01:54:14.220They were partially or fully, in some cases, funded by Purdue Pharma.
01:54:19.540the doctors that were writing articles were funded by purdue pharma and in some case the periodicals
01:54:26.440that these articles would come out in were funded by purdue pharma so it was like an elaborate shell
01:54:31.780game a con and then when you go back in time to the 1950s in the 1960s uh there was a man who
01:54:39.820basically created all of this this entire elaborate shell game of of having having fake
01:54:46.240studies being written about by doctors on your payroll, put in periodicals that are also on your
01:54:51.280payroll that you would then use that to convince doctors of whatever you're trying to convince
01:54:55.120them. And this man was Arthur Sackler, the uncle of Richard Sackler, who was the godfather of
01:55:02.560OxyContin. Right. So you see, oh, no, this is what the family they've been doing this for the last
01:55:09.58050 years. This is just their playbook. And when you get into that, that this is a generational
01:55:15.440scam i view it as sort of like pharma grifters they're a family of pharma grifters right and
01:55:21.260then it goes back generations uh it gets to be incredibly fascinating uh that there's this long
01:55:28.560history of it um and quite devious you know this is covered in the book dope sick but there's
01:55:33.240another book called empire of pain that came out not too long ago that goes into arthur sackler
01:55:38.180in the 50s and the 60s in such exquisite detail i call it uh charles dickens in hell i mean
01:55:45.320It is very Dickensian and quite fascinating, the entire family history of what they've done.
01:55:52.200Obviously, the Sacklers and Purdue Pharma, they do not come out favorably in the movie or the book or life.
02:01:22.460And it was incredible to try to get under the skin of this person.
02:01:26.880And I think that Stuhlbarg did a great job of that as well.
02:01:31.740And that there's some really interesting layers to what's happening here.
02:01:35.620He grew up with this famous uncle that we discussed earlier.
02:01:39.940And I think he desperately didn't want to be a dilettante.
02:01:43.500He wanted to prove that he could succeed on his own. And what he ends up doing is he ends up succeeding probably beyond anyone's wildest expectations and maybe the most successful person in the history of his family as far as the revenue that he brought in.
02:01:59.040But that drive to succeed, well, it had consequences. And those consequences were the opioid crisis and the devastation that it brought to this country. And if you were to point to one individual most responsible for it, I think the blame has to go directly to Richard Sackler. And I think that many of these books that have been written, they back that up. This isn't my own conclusion. It's sort of the historical record at this point.
02:02:27.440Yeah, I think Beth Macy is going to say that, too, that it's not that OxyContin was the only drug being abused during the opioid crisis, but it was certainly patient zero, if you will. It was the biggest and most important and most effective and widespread. And the way they did it is indicative of how many problems there were with the system, including the FDA.
02:02:48.560So the FDA, they're supposed to be on our side. That's supposed to be a government watchdog that looks out for the little guy. But in the same way, so many people have been distrusting many government agencies over the past 10 years or so. This agency is on that page, too, because they weren't looking out for the little guy. They looked out for Purdue. And in particular, a guy named Dr. Curtis Wright at the FDA. Well, why don't you tell us what they did for OxyContin? And then what happened to Dr. Wright?
02:03:17.920And this story is it's one of the first jaw droppers of the opioid crisis origin story when you start to research it.
02:03:27.360So one of the most effective tools that Purdue Pharma had in marketing the drug and getting doctors to feel comfortable that this opioid was less addictive than other opioids was because the FDA granted them a label that said that was the case.
02:03:44.060It was an unprecedented label that essentially said that this drug is less addictive than other opioids.
02:03:51.700And so a doctor seeing this label, being told this, it was a major part of the sales pitch.
02:03:57.680Well, that's going to really make them feel much more comfortable trying it.
02:04:02.140Besides that elaborate shell game that I talked about earlier, this is what takes it over the edge in a very significant way.
02:04:08.300And the wording of this warning label was highly unusual.
02:06:13.080And I think that it's not even just Curtis Wright, but the FDA stayed really lenient
02:06:17.860on Purdue Pharma for many years, siding with them over and over and over again.
02:06:22.940And how could Curtis Wright's massive salary and job not have some sort of influence on these future decisions where people are working at the FDA thinking either, A, there's a job for me at Purdue Pharma when I get out, or B, a job at a consulting company that can be hired by Purdue Pharma.
02:06:43.560Or in one case, a person was put on a board at Tufts University that Purdue Pharma was in charge of that board, right?
02:06:51.240And being put on these boards, well, that's really helpful for the person's career.
02:06:55.440So there's all sorts of goodies to be had for your career, your future, your pocketbook by playing ball with Purdue Pharma.
02:07:03.680And I think that I think looking at the revolving door, coming up with new rules that can not enable someone to oversee their warning label and then go work for them.
02:07:15.940She could have got to work for them the next day.
02:07:18.360It's obvious. It's so clear. Right. When you spell it out, what happened just as a is a compliment to all of this reporting and discussion.
02:07:26.84060 Minutes did a piece not long ago, taking a deep dive on all of this.
02:08:18.680It showed there were secret meetings between the FDA in which they bowed to Purdue Pharma's demands to ignore the lack of scientific data and change the label to you can use this around the clock for an extended period of time.
02:08:32.640Ed Thompson said it opened the floodgates.
02:08:34.860It was the point of no return for the FDA.
02:08:37.160They were in bed under the covers, naked next to the Sacklers for the duration.
02:08:43.480And as you point out now, not just because of Oxy, but 700,000 Americans are dead.
02:08:50.240I mean, yes, OxyContin and other opioids did help some people.
02:09:29.560But by opening it up to chronic pain, and here was the other element to it.
02:09:34.440It wasn't just chronic pain, but moderate pain, right?
02:09:37.760Because it's now non-addictive, it could be used for all sorts of ailments like wisdom teeth surgery or migraine headaches or all sorts of things that an addictive narcotic never should have been used for.
02:09:52.440And that combination of that and using it for chronic pain, which meant you had to be on it on an ongoing basis, you know, opened it up this skyrocketing of addiction and overdoses.
02:10:04.960And I will put another there is another category, too, of people which are people with severe chronic pain that have been able to effectively use Oxycontin to treat their chronic pain that now can't get access to it either.
02:10:20.160So so now there's like another set of victims because of the dishonesty that occurred in the marketing and promotion of this drug.
02:10:28.460Mm-hmm. The other villain inside of Purdue Pharma, in addition to the other Sacklers who
02:10:35.940are 100% on board with this drug, they were just worried about how much money it would make. They
02:10:41.520weren't worried about people's health from the sound of it, was the drug reps. Now, the drug
02:10:47.140reps are the people who go out to the doctors and try to convince them that this is a great drug and
02:10:51.860that they should prescribe it to all their patients. And the film does a great job of
02:10:56.340showing people the pressure on them by their top guy to push, push, push. We're making bigger,
02:11:02.940bigger pills of Oxy, more and more Oxy in each pill. The answer, if you're starting to feel
02:11:08.360withdrawal, is not less OxyContin. It's more OxyContin. That's your body telling you you need
02:11:14.540OxyContin. And the drug reps, I mean, basically they were told, do whatever you need to do.
02:11:20.720um push push push like you've got to get not necessarily people hooked but you've got to push
02:11:27.120this drug and you've got to you've got to sort of convince people um to push it no matter what you
02:11:32.600have to give them trying to look for the exact sound bite we have oh is it is it sought to
02:11:38.660okay listen sought to make your doctors feel special get dolled up take them to expensive
02:11:46.000dinners offer to fill up their car with gas just to get 10 minutes to pitch it bribed the
02:11:52.960receptionist with a mani-pedi so she'll let you in the office but you have to get to know your
02:11:59.300doctors which is why we will give you full psychological profiles on each of them if
02:12:05.480they've got kids get them tickets to disney world if they're going through a divorce get them laid
02:12:11.520whatever it takes to win their friendship and their trust
02:12:17.700they were important really important oh yeah they were a very very significant part of the
02:12:26.080process and what purdue did they did a couple things that was very clever and very devious
02:12:30.640one was they were the it was the first time where in selling a class two narcotic where people's
02:12:36.240bonuses were tied into the number of milligrams that they sold. So the more milligrams that they
02:12:43.040sold, the higher the bonus they got. Then they also went out of their way to not hire people
02:12:49.160that had a background in opioids or in narcotics, because one could argue those people would have
02:12:58.020been suspicious of the claim that it was less addictive than other opioids. And I interviewed
02:13:03.500a number of Purdue Pharma reps, former Purdue Pharma reps, and there's been a lot written about
02:13:08.860them. And the sort of the theme that comes up frequently is they believed what they were told.
02:13:16.360They believed the studies, but then at a certain point, it becomes clear to them that it's not
02:13:23.480true. And I remember I asked one of them, I said, what was the moment? What was the moment where you
02:13:28.000realized, oh, there is something very wrong with this drug. And he had he had he remembered the
02:13:33.780exact moment of what it was. He said it was when he pulled up to a pain clinic and it looked like
02:13:38.560a tailgate party out front that there were a massive amount of people grilling meat, hanging
02:13:45.360out beer. It was like a giant party outside of a pain clinic when everyone was waiting to go get
02:13:51.600their Oxycontin. So they were definitely culpable at a certain point, even though Purdue did go out
02:13:57.980of their way to try to to trick the farmer reps as well well yeah i mean if they could be sincere
02:14:04.040and earnest in the pitch so much the better right if not everybody has that acting ability right like
02:14:08.560yeah like the people in your cast most people would have to actually believe it in order to
02:14:12.920be effective at selling it the the series does a great job of painting the relationship between
02:14:17.660michael keaton's character this well-meaning west virginian doctor um and one of those sales reps
02:14:22.480The character's name is Billy Cutler, played by Will Poulter. And Billy is sort of this, he's a fresh-faced kid who's trying to make it and get a good salary and so on. And he starts off believing in the drug. And you sort of see that change over time. And his relationship with Michael Keaton is very good. And that changes over time.
02:14:41.940And even Michael Keaton is touting the drug as a doctor to his community early on in the film, saying, you know, trust me, you guys, these are good people. I know you're good people. Come by pain, honestly, and I'm going to help you fix it, honestly.
02:14:53.360And by the end of the movie, there's a tumultuous exchange between the Michael Keaton's doctor character and this Billy Cutler character, the drug rep, where you can you can feel you can feel the deterioration.
02:15:06.840You can feel the crisis that that they are in, that the nation is in.
02:15:10.740It's soundbite nine. No, no, sorry. Forgive me. It's yeah, it's soundbite eight. Take a listen.
02:18:25.720Yeah, so dope sick is the condition one feels that has an opioid use disorder, the withdrawal pain they feel that is so severe and staggering that they feel like they're going to die if they're not able to get their next fix of some type of opioid.
02:18:46.200Um, and it's, it's so all, uh, all empowering, all overwhelming, uh, people will turn their
02:18:53.780back on everything in their life to not get dope sick, their family, their children, their
02:19:29.280So the sort of the stereotype or the perception that many people have is that someone who's addicted to opioids, that they can't get off, they're weak, they're maybe lazy and they just want to get high.
02:19:43.180They're losers. They're junkies. It's a lot of judgment. But when you dig into it, what you learn is, oh, no, their brain has been hijacked and they cannot live without it.
02:19:56.480And that's what makes it so uniquely difficult to overcome opioid use disorder. And and that's where the word dopesick comes from.
02:20:06.500Yeah, it's another word is it's like they're kidnapped. They've been kidnapped by this drug, the real person. And it's so hard to get them back no matter how much the ransom you pay. So the series takes us through the progression that one of the characters has and that the country has as well, which is past Oxycontin.
02:20:28.300the next drug of choice is heroin it's sort of the gateway to heroin and then in in more modern
02:20:36.160times uh illicit fentanyl which is where we are now uh this is what people are dealing with
02:20:41.000currently and um it's incredibly hard to get off one pill can kill you sorry go ahead yeah what
02:20:48.080were you saying oh i was just saying fentanyl is so dangerous literally one pill can kill you
02:20:52.840I mean, that's how that's how severe and dangerous this whole crisis has become.
02:20:57.420Yeah. So the progression happens for one of the characters and it happens for the nation, too.
02:21:02.860And the meantime, you're asked you're shown the effort by some law enforcement agents.
02:21:07.060You mentioned the West Virginia prosecutors.
02:21:09.800Certain people at the higher levels of the federal government were on the good guy's side and certain people were not.
02:21:15.080It's never fully explained what was happening, but we're led to believe that Purdue Pharma had connections even there.
02:21:19.740They hired Rudy Giuliani. He knew how to work.
02:21:22.220the government. This is at the height of his popularity right after 9-11. And he tried to
02:21:26.440work his magic on Purdue's behalf, used his good name on their behalf, which is just, oh, hurts.
02:21:33.160And ultimately, the civil lawsuits and finally the criminal prosecutions against Purdue Pharma
02:21:40.300got us where, Danny? Well, the criminal prosecutions. So and that's where the show
02:21:46.360ends, the season basically ends around, it's in 2007, which is a settlement that Purdue Pharma
02:21:55.500has with the U.S. government. Three executives plead to misdemeanors and does from this settlement
02:22:04.520in which the company pleads to a felony, $600 million in fines. So is this, do they change
02:22:12.200their ways? Do they are they reformed by this settlement? The answer is a definitive no. In
02:22:19.460fact, and this is where for me, I start to think that these people are sociopaths, because they
02:22:26.800have had this massive investigation against them. They have pled guilty to a felony. There is so
02:22:33.940much data at this point in 2007 of overdoses, crime rates, communities devastated. Do they
02:22:41.620change their ways? Do they make any sort of adjustments? No, they hit the gas and they sell
02:22:47.020even harder and they triple their sales in two years. And like I said, that's where I start to
02:22:53.180think, oh, oh, they're literally sociopaths where they just do not care. They don't care about any
02:22:59.660of the damage that they're causing. They are just trying to make as much money as possible. So then
02:23:04.340And that brings us now to 2021 and 2020.
02:23:08.940Lo and behold, they have to plead guilty to two more sets of felonies.
02:23:12.940And instead of $600 million in fines, it's $8.5 billion in fines.
02:23:18.700Partly, this settlement was because they blew off the safeguards of the 2007 settlement.
02:23:26.380they end up getting this very favorable judgment in which the Sackler family will pay out.
02:23:33.680I believe it was three point four billion, four point five, four point five, right?
02:23:39.060Yeah. Yeah. Billion dollars in fines. However, they are now immune to all future civil letting
02:23:46.140civil litigation. However, here's where it gets a little interesting or very interesting,
02:23:52.920depending on your point of view, is that they are not immune to criminal liability and they could
02:23:58.560still be prosecuted, the Sackler family. And there was a big rally outside the Justice Department
02:24:04.520just a few days ago, filled with activists, filled with Rick Mountcastle, the real prosecutor who we
02:24:12.200dramatized in the show, was there, gave a speech. I actually gave a speech. There were three former
02:24:17.480U.S. three former Justice Department prosecutors giving a speech to push the Justice Department
02:24:26.100to file criminal charges against members of the Sackler family. So this isn't over. And now
02:24:34.040the common belief has always been amongst I don't know who, but that this will never happen if
02:24:39.820they'll never be charged. However, there is a push now. I think that the TV show has put a lot
02:24:45.560of attention on it and given it some momentum. And it's really emboldened the activists who
02:24:49.940threw this rally. And supposedly there's going to be a Justice Department meeting in the next week
02:24:55.100with the lawyer for these activists and some of the activists. And they're better,
02:25:00.140they better meet with them because literally Purdue Pharma certainly has met with the Justice
02:25:05.360Department many times. So I would think these activists should be able to get this meeting.
02:25:10.040But so there is a push right now for criminal charges. There is a huge sense amongst these activists that justice has not been served, that the company has now pled guilty to three felonies, but no individuals have. And the company didn't make these decisions. Individuals made these decisions.
02:25:28.480And Sackler, the Sacklers paid money toward that bankruptcy settlement of Purdue, but they still have plenty of money.
02:25:35.060It's not unlike the Epstein case with justice on the wrong side for a lot of years and now getting it right.
02:25:40.300Danny Strong, thank you so much for being here and for telling this story and all the best with it.
02:25:46.460Oh, thank you so much, Megan. I had a great time talking about this with you.
02:25:50.480So thank you so much for having me here.
02:25:53.760up next uh the journalist who wrote the book dope sick beth macy don't don't go away
02:26:00.560welcome back to the megan kelly show joining me now beth macy journalist and author who wrote the
02:26:10.140book dope sick which was recently adapted into the tv series that you've been hearing us talk about
02:26:15.580beth thank you so much for being with us today i i loved your book and i love your work and i think
02:26:22.020you have this sage ability to see things that the rest of us can't necessarily see. So we're lucky
02:26:28.900to have journalists like you. Thank you. That's the truth. I mean, you saw something here when
02:26:35.440it came to these small distressed communities in Appalachia and similarities that were in all of
02:26:42.560these towns and then similar ways of dealing with the problems. So first, can you just describe
02:26:47.980sort of what were some of the problems they shared that sort of preceded the opioid crisis?
02:26:55.520So one of the factors about where the crisis first broke out was the fact that Purdue Pharma
02:27:04.300bought data that showed them which communities were sort of rife to be exploited by their
02:27:10.740products. That is, they picked the communities in America, these tended to be distressed rural
02:27:15.860towns where the jobs were going away. And these were places that had furniture factory making,
02:27:22.200coal mining, logging, fishing. So you first see the crisis erupting in places like Southwest
02:27:31.780Virginia, West Virginia, rural Maine, because Purdue knew that doctors in those communities
02:27:37.880were already prescribing competing opioids at a higher rate. And with their FDA label that we now
02:27:47.000know is quite in question, they went out and they tried with the reps, they tried to flip
02:27:52.340the doctors from prescribing Percocet, Vicodin, Loratab to OxyContin, which they said was safer
02:28:00.580because of this continuous release mechanism.
02:28:05.300And they got the doctors to flip thanks to that FDA insert, which was completely bought
02:28:11.620and paid for by Purdue Pharma to the great expense of really lower, not even, I mean,
02:28:18.680maybe lower to middle income Americans to begin with.
02:28:21.780And then it's spread and spread and spread.
02:28:23.120I know you write about a study that took a look at the the life expectancy of people in these regions and how like the difference between the bottom fifth in terms of income and wealth and the top fifth in income and wealth in this country is huge.
02:28:44.440It's something like a difference of 13 years and life expectancy.
02:28:48.000And so these people really, they've been overlooked by a system that has been focused on globalization, that's been trying to kill coal, and no one's been paying any attention to them. And then Purdue Pharma did and managed to manipulate their very doctors to sort of turn on them without understanding that's what they were doing.
02:29:07.740right and that was a real double whammy if you've already lost the majority of your job some of the
02:29:14.800communities i was reporting on from my first book factory man which came out in 2014 which is about
02:29:20.940the aftermath of globalization as i was wrapping up that reporting i was starting to hear things
02:29:27.300like we've got a heroin crisis in martinsville virginia we're talking like a tiny town about
02:29:33.400an hour south of me here in Roanoke, Virginia. And I didn't understand it at the time, nor did
02:29:39.740most journalists, that the OxyContin story was so related to the heroin epidemic story because
02:29:47.260they're basically chemical cousins. And when the drugs start to get harder to get, more expensive
02:29:52.960around 2010, 2012, you and I may not have known that OxyContin and heroin were chemical cousins,
02:29:59.940but the cartels did. And so they bring them in and start converting people to heroin because
02:30:06.520it's cheaper, it's easier to get. And they know that one's fear of becoming dope sick,
02:30:12.260that is this excruciating feeling of withdrawal that they all say is like the worst flu times
02:30:18.300a hundred, really is one hell of a good business model. And can you explain what the cartels,
02:30:24.300which we already know are evil, do to the drug in order to make sure the clientele gets hooked
02:30:30.580and keeps coming back? Well, first, I remember the story from a young woman named Tess Henry
02:30:38.060that I followed for Dope Sick. And she could pinpoint the month that the DEA started cracking
02:30:43.860down. Hydrocodone products had been upscheduled. I think it was like 2014. And she said all of a
02:30:50.860sudden she couldn't get the pills on the black market from her dealer. And so he personally
02:30:56.640showed her how to snort heroin, which you think heroin, yuck, you know, if you're her, which she
02:31:03.580did at first, but really if you're snorting in a line, it was just the same as she had been
02:31:08.160snorting the pills. And once because of, because with opioids, you, you need more and more in order
02:31:15.440or not to get dope sick. Then when the snorting, the heroin didn't work, her dealer taught her how
02:31:23.160to shoot it up. And that, you know, times a million across our country, that's the way it
02:31:27.940went down. And now we have fentanyl poisoning the drug supply because it's smaller, more potent,
02:31:37.060and easier to smuggle in. In the book, you write about how they would,
02:31:43.060And they'll sort of pack the initial dose with some extras and you get this big high and you love it.
02:31:50.120And then you come back and they lower the dosage in your next your next delivery.
02:31:55.880So then you start to get the feeling you need the next hit sooner.
02:31:59.040You pay more, you know, and now they've got you.
02:32:01.600I mean, now you're now you're a customer for life.
02:32:04.040Is heroin a lot cheaper than Oxycontin?
02:32:07.800And I mean, obviously, you don't get a prescription for it.
02:32:09.960So you just get it like on the streets.
02:32:11.420but it's more accessible and it's cheaper? Absolutely. It's a lot cheaper. And forgive
02:32:17.220me, I don't remember exactly how much it's going for right now. But of course, fentanyl is in all
02:32:22.500of the drugs right now. So you're getting people overdosing with cocaine that's laced with fentanyl,
02:32:28.460MDMA drugs. And these are so much easier to get on the black market than the treatment,
02:32:38.580the medicines um the medication assisted treatment that science says is the gold standard of care
02:32:45.460for treating people with opioid use disorder i mean that's it's so much easier to just go out
02:32:50.660and get dope again rather than it is to be treated like a human being with a medical condition in our
02:32:56.400health care system and so you get hooked on something like oxycontin thanks to purdue and
02:33:01.820its fancy marketing skills and its manipulation of the fda and doctors and its own sales reps
02:33:06.180And then when you either run out of money or the ability to get more prescriptions, once the government cracked down on these, you know, pill pushers, then where are you? Because you're still addicted and you can't get your drug anymore. So you turn to heroin or you turn to fentanyl and you have a high likelihood of dying. I mean, that's the thing. So we didn't solve the opioid crisis by cracking down on some of these characters.
02:33:29.280No, absolutely. Nor did we solve the opioid crisis by reducing prescriptions even. A lot of people thought that would help with overdoses. And maybe it does help with not starting new cases, but for the people who are already addicted, that horse is long out of the barn. So that's why we need to make these addiction treatments and modalities so much more accessible than they are.
02:33:57.280Yeah, well, we'll get to the treatment in just a little bit. But the book, also the series based on the book, does a great job of showing you how it can corrupt your life, how it can corrupt the life of somebody who is innocent, you know, who is well-meaning, who is not, I don't know, you know how it is when you grow up, at least in the 70s, you talk about people who got addicted to drugs, you think of somebody who was kind of dirty, kind of a dirtbag, you know, like, oh, gross, who does drugs?
02:34:23.560That's not what happened with the opioid crisis.
02:34:25.460And it's one of the things I love about the storytelling because it accurately represents that, you know, whatever, moms, daughters, you know, innocent high school kids getting sucked into this.
02:34:37.180The path in the movie of the main star takes us, her name is Betsy, played by Caitlin Deaver, takes us to a really low moment when her parents figure out she's still on drugs.
02:34:49.960she's she's been they've tried to get a rehab and she's still on drugs and if you've ever had an
02:34:54.560addict in your family you've been through something like this because they don't get
02:34:57.340clean right away first time they try you go through this over and over lies and sneaking
02:35:02.720and cheating with more and escalating to other drugs and uh it's captured powerfully in what
02:35:09.140we have labeled a soundbite nine watch i sold all of it
02:35:14.260mom you've been you've been going to a.a
02:41:05.480spend a fortune for them. A lot of middle-class families would remortgage the homes to send them
02:41:10.740to exactly the kind of, uh, treatment that science says doesn't really work for opioid use disorder.
02:41:16.900And you've seen that in the Keaton story when, when he's there, I forget if it's episode six
02:41:21.300or seven, he's like, Hey, you've been back here a lot. Right. In rehab. And the guy says, yeah,
02:41:26.300five or six times. And he says, you know, but it worked, it worked for me finally. And he says,
02:41:32.180well, were you alcohol? And he says, yeah, alcohol. So we know that the rehab works better
02:41:37.980for abstinence only modalities work better than for opioids, which you really, most people need
02:41:47.980the medication assisted treatment. See, that's another thing that we didn't know when going
02:41:53.220through this, right? Like I remember being one of the like, you know, you got to go cold turkey,
02:41:58.860You know, you gotta, you gotta let this person hit rock bottom. I don't reveal who it was in my family because I don't have the permission of the person or the person's other family members. But, you know, I was of the mind of like, tough love, you know, you can't keep picking up the pieces. You can't give this person the home that they lost because of all the lies and all the drugs and all the bankruptcies. And you can't do that, you know, like, let them deal with the laws of natural consequences.
02:42:24.460And it's only now with some distance that I start to see, it's just not that simple. And you can't really apply the rules you may have thought applied to a disease like alcoholism, and you can take issue with my plan even there, to this addiction.
02:42:41.620That's absolutely right. And I saw that over and over and over again, and it's still happening.
02:42:46.860You know, parents are sort of beating their heads against the wall and they're being told,
02:42:51.520many of them are being told that that's the way to do it. I tell the story of this mom
02:42:56.520in my new book, Raising Lazarus, which comes out next August, who had this critical moment where
02:43:02.880she knew her son was going to die if he didn't get help. And her best friend had a teenage
02:43:10.300daughter who had cancer. And she said, I'm going to treat him the way Lisa treats Amelia. I'm not
02:43:17.460going to just kick him out of the house. I'm going to feed him. If he comes home and he's
02:43:24.400high, I'm not going to engage, but I'm also not going to be cruel. And then we're going to have
02:43:30.880a conversation the next day and I'm not giving up on him. And she says now he's six years into
02:43:36.340sobriety, she says her only regret was that she hadn't approached his addiction like the medical
02:43:42.980condition it was much sooner. Wow. It's so hard that she's a strong woman because unlike the
02:43:50.900cancer patient, this patient is lying and cheating and stealing and bankrupting other family members.
02:43:58.820And you're angry with them, right? It's like how you have to check your anger
02:44:03.920because what you really want is to solve it you know you don't you don't want to just punish
02:44:08.440it's not about retribution it's it's like i want this all to stop and the way to stop
02:44:13.540is is your friend's approach but man it's it's so hard you're right and they mess up your christmas
02:44:20.340dinner and your thanksgiving dinner and and they hurt everyone you love everyone you love
02:44:26.880yeah yeah i will not forget with with tess was the young woman i followed the most and dope sick
02:44:32.780she would disappear and live homeless and then she'd come home every now and then and the last
02:44:38.300Thanksgiving they had together she had hurt her siblings so much that and they were very much
02:44:45.680kind of had come up in tough love that they were just done with her and even though she made the
02:44:52.200whole meal she did all the shopping and her mom just sent me a picture the other day after
02:44:56.620Thanksgiving she goes remember this it was Tess's last she called it the thankless Thanksgiving she
02:45:01.960made the whole meal and no one thanked her. And, you know, shortly after she had another breakdown
02:45:07.700and, you know, she went back out in the streets and, you know, I know her mother wishes she would
02:45:14.200have acted sooner with love. And she now says, you know, rock bottom has a basement. The basement
02:45:19.300has a trap door. I wish I knew now what I knew then what I knew now. It's a good line. Coming
02:45:26.980up, we're going to talk about how the system is not positioned, not at all, to help people who
02:45:33.260find themselves addicted to opioids get out of it and get their lives straight and clean. To the
02:45:40.320contrary, it's built, I think, to keep them down, and it does a really effective job at it. We'll
02:45:44.820pick it up there with Beth Macy coming up right after this. So Beth, just to take a step back,
02:45:54.040The book does a good job of explaining how we've had some shifts as a country.
02:45:59.000This isn't the first time that we've been, I guess, dope sick.
02:46:02.620And you talk about how one of the things that struck me in the book was that you talked about how they used to,
02:46:08.140I'm looking at my note here, in 1899, Bayer, as in Bayer Aspirin,
02:46:13.480was cranking out a ton of heroin a year and selling it in 23 countries.
02:46:17.940And you write that in the U.S., cough drops and even baby soothing syrups were laced with heroin.
02:46:30.540So this kind of comes about as the result of civil war wounds and women who had lost their families.
02:46:39.920And heroin is actually introduced by Bayer as a cure for morphinism, which is doctors would give morphine away along with needles to patients and have them use them as needed.
02:46:56.920And, of course, just as then, even though then it was much a lighter dosage than than the heroin we have certainly of now is, but people would need more and more.
02:47:09.900And then when the Harrison Narcotics Act came along in 1914, outlawing most of the black market uses of the drug, people then went to the black market.
02:47:22.440And so that's when there became this dichotomy between legitimate white market users who were prescribed and so-called black market users.
02:47:33.580So for most of the 1900s until 1996, when Purdue comes out with OxyContin, we knew that opioids were addicted and should only be used in the instances of cancer, end of life, post-surgery, but just for a few days because doctors were rightly worried about addiction, which we've known for centuries, actually.
02:47:55.880And yet Purdue managed to flip the narrative, not just for OxyContin, but through the pain societies that they funded a lot of and through things like the Joint Commission, which they had a role in, you know, things like consumer surveys where patients would, you know, give a hospital a bad thing.
02:48:19.180You see that playing out in the show when our character Randy is in the hospital for his prostate cancer.
02:48:24.880We just they just shifted that narrative right away and it all blew up again.
02:48:32.460So in other words, just to add to that, you're saying because this is portrayed in the film, the movie, too, that if you go to the hospital and you have a negative experience and you give them a bad rating because they didn't address your pain, that hurts the hospital.
02:48:44.160And so there was a big push started by OxyContin to Purdue to get doctors and nurses on it.
02:48:52.100If you feel pain, there's no more like just dealing with it.
02:48:54.520And there's no more like, all right, well, let's titrate it a little bit.
02:49:01.900And if you're worried about it, here's the special FDA label that says don't worry about it.
02:49:05.380But like there was a consumerist response to this pain problem that the hospitals had to worry about because they are, after all, businesses.
02:49:15.340Absolutely. They could lose the ratings. They could lose reimbursements from Medicare and Medicaid if they didn't treat a person's pain.
02:49:22.780And still today, I was at the ER with a friend not long ago. You still see that rate your pain scale with the smiley faces one to 10.
02:49:30.680So there are still elements of it, although I think most doctors and nurses are much wiser
02:50:17.680But you see Michael Keaton doing that at the height of his addiction because he's in the
02:50:23.340corner of far southwest virginia and it's just a half hour drive to get to tennessee
02:50:27.800this way to kentucky this way to west virginia and they would really take advantage of that
02:50:33.040and you also see in the show this idea that uh oh they're cutting down they're cutting back on
02:50:38.480prescribing at home but people wouldn't rent vans to drive down they called it um that uh
02:50:45.200what did they call it the pillbilly express or the oxycontin express they've drive down to florida
02:50:50.580which had, which had no restrictions at the time. And you would see these strip mall office setups
02:50:58.920with doctors prescribing with, without hardly even doing exams. And they would be running
02:51:04.620pharmacies out their back door. I mean, sometimes in like the equivalent of a food truck, you know,
02:51:10.980because you can get rich as a doctor by doing that. You could get rich as a doctor by doing
02:51:14.880that. And by the way, one of the things that's happened in the news recently, just a couple of
02:51:19.140weeks ago was a judgment of liability against CVS, Walgreens, and Walmart for their role in
02:51:26.780the opioid crisis, their pharmacies, and a couple of other ones like Rite Aid and another had
02:51:31.120settled. So they were also swept in, in just indiscriminately filling all these prescriptions
02:51:36.420when, and we're not just talking about mild abuse, but in abuse of these drugs that should
02:51:41.560have been obvious to any pharmacy, and yet they turned a blind eye because they too made a lot
02:51:47.600of money off of this. Absolutely. That's right. And what you have now, and every time I do an
02:51:53.060interview, I'll hear from the chronic pain community, and they're angry because a lot of
02:51:58.660folks who are actually on stable dosages of legit pain medications are being abandoned as well.
02:52:08.180And so you see some of those folks either suffering in pain or going to the black market
02:52:14.520and getting heroin laced with fentanyl or committing suicide. So that's a concern too,
02:52:19.740but that's directly because of the actions of Purdue making it so over-prescribed to start with
02:52:27.060that it's hard to suss out for some doctors who's legit and who isn't. So just a nod to the fact
02:52:34.140that there are other unintended victims of this today, and I hear from them a lot.
02:52:40.220the um the lawsuit started to come against purdue as people started to feel it as communities
02:52:46.680started to put together that entire towns were falling apart and found themselves addicted i
02:52:51.720mean in particular in appalachia and um the big one we mentioned a minute ago with danny strong
02:52:57.760was uh the 2007 uh settlement with purdue where the three executives pleaded guilty um to was it
02:53:05.520felony it was a felony uh yes yeah to a felony no i'm sorry the executives pleaded uh guilty to
02:53:13.120misdemeanors they were on probation for a few years they had fines the company made it and then
02:53:19.000the the holding company not purdue pharma rather but purdue frederick uh pleaded guilty to a felony
02:53:25.800um now if purdue pharma would have pleaded guilty i mean their lawyers were so ahead of everybody
02:53:31.260else on this. They cunningly knew that Purdue Pharma wouldn't be able to continue to sell
02:53:36.200OxyContin if it had a felony. So they did the deal with the holding company, Purdue Frederick.
02:53:43.080And it was allowed. And by the way, none of those executives was last name Sackler. It was all it
02:53:47.200was three other guys. Absolutely. And if you talk to the activists now, because Danny and I were
02:53:52.980just with a bunch of them on Friday at this rally on December 3rd, they didn't even know the name
02:53:58.400Sackler back then. And think about that. Like, you know, you've got all these museums and wings
02:54:03.920and whatnot, but back then, if you went to the Purdue Farmer website, you wouldn't even see the
02:54:09.160name Sackler on anything. They were very clever. And as word that these lawsuits were coming up,
02:54:17.400they cleverly, you know, resigned from their board positions and, you know, in a way allowed
02:54:25.900uh, their philanthropy to sort of cloak their villainy. So how did they come back? You know,
02:54:30.940we were just talking with Danny about how they, I think, tripled their sales within a couple of
02:54:35.020years. They went forward, the Sacklers and Purdue, like nothing had ever happened.
02:54:40.300That's right. Um, well, a lot of the, the government regulators that should have been,
02:54:45.240um, monitoring, uh, their, their corporate integrity agreement. I mean,
02:54:51.080corporate integrity agreement, the very phrase is kind of laughable when you see how they just
02:54:58.320continued to do what they were doing before and in many ways amped up their sales. Richard
02:55:04.440Sackler personally went on sales calls, at least one time that we know of, and they hired McKinsey
02:55:09.760to double down, to sell, sell, sell. And we don't have structures in place to make sure
02:55:21.260that the proper checks are happening, such that in 2020, the company pleads guilty to more felonies,
02:55:30.940which are basically the same kind of fraudulent behaviors.
02:55:34.580hmm in in between those two times i mean i don't when would you say we became aware that of the
02:55:40.440opioid crisis you know we as a nation had the national consciousness that this was a thing
02:55:44.240that's a really good question in 2015 the nobel winning economist ann case and angus deaton
02:55:51.080wrote about uh was a bombshell study was on the cover of time magazine deaths of despair
02:55:56.580um so we realized that for the first time in american history since world war one
02:56:03.500our life expectancy was going down. And it was going down largely due to opioid overdose,
02:56:10.060alcoholism-related diseases like cirrhosis of the liver, and to suicide. But by far,
02:56:15.160the biggest of those three factors was opioids. You had Sam Canoni's book, Dreamland,
02:56:20.760came out in 2016, I believe. My book came out in 2018. And then the lawsuits started happening.
02:56:28.060And a lot of those, most of the suits ended up over 2,600 lawsuits were brought by cities and counties and state governments.
02:56:39.540They ended up in the multi-district litigation under the direction of Judge Polster in Cleveland.
02:56:45.940But Purdue was able to pull their case out by filing bankruptcy.
02:56:53.600And where did they file bankruptcy? Not in a location where they actually conduct business, but they filed it in the jurisdiction of a bankruptcy judge named Robert Drain, who is known for being one of the minority of judges who allows what's called a third party release, which so it's like a bankruptcy loophole.
02:57:12.880They file in White Plains because they know Drain is one of the few judges that allows the Sackler to attach to get civil immunity from further litigation in exchange for their settlement.
02:57:29.920Yeah. And just to make clear, this is an issue because the Sacklers individually were not filing for bankruptcy.
02:57:34.900They're billionaires. Just Purdue Pharma was. But they wanted to sort of glom on to their company and say, oh, and no lawsuits against us and no more criminal, no trouble for us of any kind, because we've contributed four billion dollars and we've contributed to this massive bankruptcy settlement.
02:57:52.260But they basically, but that was backfunded, as I understand, by Purdue anyway. So it's all fungible. These are still going to be billionaires. And now if this goes through, they can't be sued.
02:58:02.420$4 billion. So if you take that $10.4 and then you let them pay off the $4.5 over nine years, by the way, they have nine years to pay it. So with investments at the going rate, they could be richer at the end of the nine years than they are right now. I mean, where is the justice in that?
02:58:21.280Oh, my gosh. They're clever. I mean, that's definitely something we saw in all of this. They're clever. One of the things you point out in your book, and I think it's good, too, is a couple of very famous deaths. You know, sometimes I don't want to say these people were used, you know, by a higher power to sort of underscore the dangers of drugs to us.
02:58:40.120but you point out in the book Philip Seymour Hoffman's death. I mean, this incredibly promising
02:58:45.600actor who was just stunning when he died. Prince died. I mean, both of them swept up in this same
02:58:52.740crisis that we're talking about. And sometimes seeing somebody that famous and talented,
02:58:58.520seeing their life cut short can really be, I don't know, it gets your attention and it focuses you in
02:59:05.200a way that can be productive. Yes, it's a wake up call. And as I think somebody in the book said,
02:59:11.020nobody wants to tell Prince that he has an opioid problem, right? So back to this idea that wealth
02:59:17.560and power can protect you from this. Nobody's protected from this. That's why we all need to
02:59:23.220pay attention and become, you know, advocates for our own medical treatments. Yep. So then it morphs,
02:59:31.740you know, from oxy to the heroin scene. And you write in your book about how this is like the
02:59:37.620suburban heroin scene, the young teenage girl heroin scene would shock people. Can you talk
02:59:43.100about that a bit? Because it's hard to believe that, you know, young cheerleaders are doing
02:59:47.120heroin, but they are. Yeah. And of course, not all of them, but, you know, unlike you and I
02:59:53.900growing up in the seventies and eighties, um, you know, when kids would experiment with alcohol
03:00:01.220or weed, you know, maybe some mushrooms or something, I don't know, but, but you talk
03:00:07.340about kids that grew up in the nineties in the aughts, they had pills at their disposal because
03:00:12.400Purdue had massively, uh, uh, talk doctors into massively over prescribing these drugs. So
03:00:19.340a kid could just experiment like the way a kid in years your would have done with alcohol or
03:00:25.760marijuana, but only now they're using a much more dangerous drug. And so, I mean, actually,
03:00:33.560I was just at a premier event here in Roanoke with the first person I ever knew who this had
03:00:39.600happened to. And he was a young man named Spencer Mompower. And when I first met him,
03:00:45.500He was from a wealthy family. His mom was a civic leader, had a chain of jewelry stores,
03:00:49.920and he was about to go to federal prison for five and a half years for having sold
03:00:54.000heroin to his former private school classmate who died. And I spent the summer hanging out
03:01:01.160with him trying to learn about this nascent cell of heroin users in the wealthy white suburbs of
03:01:07.820Roanoke. And he said, dude, I'm the one that told you what the word dope sick met. And I was like,
03:01:13.680you're absolutely right. I didn't know what it meant then. But I remember him describing
03:01:18.100how if he said, if your dope man wasn't coming until, you know, for three more days,
03:01:24.200and you only had this little, this much left, you would parse it out so that you would still
03:01:28.860have a little bit at the end, because the driving fear of all of it was this fear of withdrawal and
03:01:35.080this fear of dope sickness. Of course, this, like any addiction,
03:01:38.740is more likely to affect you if you have a parent who is an addict. Your book points out that I
03:01:44.100think you have a 50 to 60 percent, you're 50 to 60 percent more likely to become addicted if you
03:01:50.320have a parent who is an addict. So, you know, there is, of course, as with any addiction, an
03:01:54.380extra special red warning label to people who have that in their family. But there is a treatment,
03:02:01.060and we talked about how, you know, the version of AA doesn't work so well for the opioid addicts,
03:02:05.880But there is a treatment called suboxone that that does help.
03:02:09.960Now, it, too, is considered a controlled substance, right?
03:02:34.600I mean, these jobs aren't going to hire you. That's a real problem. But that drug seems to be very much part of the solution to this crisis.
03:02:44.460Absolutely. It's protective. And Megan, it has buprenorphine in it, which is the opioid that kind of gloms on to the opioid receptor.
03:02:54.380But it also has naloxone in it, which is the generic name for Narcan, so that if somebody does go out and use, it's not going to work for them.
03:03:02.960And so it is protective in that way. And you see in our show, the way the Michael Keaton character is stigmatized for being on it. And he said, it's what's keeping me clean. I've never felt clearer than I have in my life.
03:03:18.080you see Betsy go to the AA meeting and be told that she's considering going on it. But somebody
03:03:24.340says to her, you know, that's just treating a drug with another drug. And this happened over
03:03:29.960and over to the young people that I was following for my book. And it is a real problem, especially
03:03:38.420among law enforcement people who have seen it diverted and sold. But I would argue and many
03:03:45.200experts argue that the reason it is so widely diverted is because it largely isn't available
03:03:51.620to the people who need it. So there is this, this big market demand for it. Only one in five people
03:03:59.100with opioid use disorder has access to it. So that's, that's something we know it works. We
03:04:04.860know it's dangerous to go off of harder opioids without being on it. So we really need to make
03:04:16.740it available at a scale to match the crisis. How long can one stay on it? So everyone's
03:04:23.200different. And some people think it's okay, you might have to be on it for the rest of your life.
03:04:29.080Dr. Van Zee, the doctor who's portrayed in the show, he told me years ago, he said he's got
03:04:34.480patients weaned down very, very slowly, and they might just be on a teeny little bit every day,
03:04:40.140but he's afraid because he's seen people, even when they're on a small amount, when they go off,
03:04:47.600some have relapsed. And so he's very, very cautious about it. He only does it when a person
03:04:53.880voluntarily wants to taper off. But it's something to be done with all caution. But he, I mean, he
03:05:01.660does have some amazing success stories, as do all MAT doctors. I mean, the thing about law
03:05:07.520enforcement is they only see the bad side of it, the people breaking the law side of it. They don't
03:05:11.900see the people who are getting jobs back, getting their kids back. Well, and I think employers need
03:05:17.600to see that drug and maybe have a different reaction instead of seeing like, oh, drug addict,
03:05:21.700and they've got an opioid in them now, it's no, someone who has actively taken steps to change
03:05:26.740their life. And you can find out for how long they've been clean and been on it. Because you're
03:05:31.380not taking opioids in addition to Suboxone, if you're taking Suboxone. But you know, to me,
03:05:36.320it's just so frustrating, because you see, Beth, you know, it's like you, these companies, they
03:05:39.920get you addicted, they get you addicted to their drug, your life spirals. So many of these people
03:05:45.040wind up committing crimes, whatever, whether it's shoplifting or something with cars, what have you,
03:05:49.280because they're desperate, you know, selling drugs, buying drugs.
03:05:54.880Then they get on Suboxone, which is the way out for a lot of them.
03:05:58.220Then they can't get a job because they've got that in their blood, which is a tell.
03:06:01.220So now you can, you know, your employers are looking at somebody who's got a criminal past,
03:06:04.780who's got this drug, which is a tell, who probably doesn't present all that well physically
03:06:09.000because they've been an addict for all this time.
03:06:11.200And it's an impossible spiral to pull yourself out of.
03:06:14.740You need so much support, so much love, so much understanding from your family, from society, from employers, from law enforcement, from the judicial system.
03:06:25.080And from we didn't even touch the story of expanded Medicaid.
03:06:29.060And I, you know, your book is really smart on that.
03:06:31.660I love people to read your arguments for Medicaid expansion.
03:06:35.860It's just the number one tool for for reducing overdose deaths in in various states.
03:06:42.300but we still have 12 states that haven't expanded it. Right. Yep. Yep. Again, I think they think it
03:06:48.440may be tough love, but it may just be cruel and a way of stopping people from getting out of a
03:06:53.200really tough situation. Right. And as this opioid litigation money, as the funnel start, as it
03:06:58.020starts to funnel down, it's so important that states and communities get together people who
03:07:03.480really understand the science and aren't just spouting off this tough love crap, which isn't
03:07:11.440working and is starting to meet people where they are. We know that people who visit needle
03:07:17.720exchanges, I know that sounds counter on intuitive. Why are you going to give a drug user a clean
03:07:22.880needle? Well, because they're going to use regardless until they get real help. So why
03:07:28.060don't we make sure they use safely and that's going to cut down on the spread of hepatitis C
03:07:33.380and HIV, which is skyrocketing in some communities. But we know they're also five times more likely
03:07:39.220to enter treatment when, when they go to a needle exchange. Oh, and on top of that, you, you've said
03:07:44.380it's cheaper to pay for the needle than it is to pay for the disease, the treatment of the disease
03:07:48.220they're going to get from dirty needle. So it's like society's in, we're, we're in this, whether
03:07:51.980we want to be or not. And the only question now is what, what is the smart way of dealing with it?
03:07:57.440Beth Macy is one of the people who has been calling attention to it for a long time with
03:08:01.960thoughtful diagnoses and possible solutions. I'm grateful for you, Beth. Thank you. Thank you so
03:08:07.520much. Thank you, Megan. Really appreciate it. All the best. Family annihilator. It's a term
03:08:17.500you may have heard recently during the Alec Murdoch trial. The prosecutor even asking Alec
03:08:24.060directly if he qualified as one. Do you remember this? Watch. Are you a family annihilator?
03:20:37.860So what is it that's in their background that makes these guys be able to succeed in life, able to be well-liked, but instead of being a loving, caring husband, they go this route?
03:20:48.880yeah so my background is in forensic and legal psychology so I have spent a lot of time in the
03:20:55.500psychological research and analysis and the psychopathology of men who kill and and I will
03:21:02.440say they're not all homogenous so we can't say it's all for the same reason specifically contexts
03:21:07.680are different but what I can see is what is the thing that really is the motivator is this need
03:21:14.160for power and control. And that power and control, well, you know, I'm going to mention the P word,
03:21:19.540the patriarchy, because we all live in the patriarchy where laws and systems and processes
03:21:25.040are created by men for men. And that's why women have a very tough time because our lived
03:21:30.120experiences aren't included in laws, for example. So that's why we're having to change laws on
03:21:36.300stalking and on coercive control. So it is this overriding need to have to control things,
03:21:43.640to have power over. And Megan, you mentioned serial killers. I mean, it's all the same thing,
03:21:48.680right? Because men who harm women in their significant lives, as in women who are significant
03:21:54.900to them, can also harm women who are not significant to them. And this connection is
03:21:59.860one that I made at New Scotland Yard by profiling domestic violence rapists. And I spent a lot of
03:22:05.220time profiling 450 of them, looking at them and doing a psychological autopsy backwards of who
03:22:10.720are they and what do they do? You know, the first five years of my career were trying to identify
03:22:16.220the serial rapist, the serial killer, the serial perpetrator who abducts children. And the one
03:22:22.720thing I found in their background consistently was domestic abuse and coercive control. So these
03:22:28.920things do interconnect. And Dr. Robert Hare, who created the psychopathy checklist, he in 1993,
03:22:35.560his research showed us that 25% of domestic violence perpetrators are psychopaths. And I
03:22:43.140would expect that to be far higher as a figure now. And when I'm training police and others,
03:22:47.560I'm always talking about psychopathy, because we don't screen enough for it. So there are,
03:22:53.120unfortunately, many psychopaths who we may have relationships with, and they have this need for
03:22:59.700power and control, and they have no empathy, they have no remorse. And it's all about them,
03:23:04.360me myself and I the narcissism so that's what I see is the inter you know the thing that
03:23:10.380interconnects that law enforcement are trained well this is domestic violence here and these
03:23:15.520are the domestic violence perpetrators this is child abuse here this is sexual violence here
03:23:19.760and they're taught in boxes and categories but that's not how offenders offend so the more that
03:23:27.780we understand the traits of psychopathy and the more that we screen for it and that we take domestic
03:23:33.300violence perpetrators seriously, and we see it as serious crime, and we hold them to account,
03:23:39.200and we challenge their behavior looking for coercive control, then we start to get into
03:23:44.400proper threat assessment and risk management. Can I just say a couple things? It actually used
03:23:50.460to be the lie. I was criticizing Michael Cohen, former lawyer to President Trump, for having said
03:23:55.460this as recently as 2007 or 2008, saying the law is you cannot rape your wife. That is not true
03:24:02.220in the state of New York, even as of 2007.
03:24:05.060But at one point in our history, it was true.
03:24:59.460And I have to say it publicly, it's absurd.
03:25:01.860yes and that's everything the stalker wants they want you to be in that courtroom and the same with
03:25:08.920the domestic abuser you know that power and control and being able to see you terrified and
03:25:13.140have that power and control over you and this is exactly why every legal process be it court you
03:25:18.680have to have special measures that reflect women's experiences and by the way and you know this but
03:25:24.200laws that protect us at the point of murder is too late you know what i've been trying to do is
03:25:29.780prevent murders in slow motion. It's the what happens before that we get in and we early
03:25:34.800identify, intervene and we prevent so that we don't have, particularly in America, four to five
03:25:39.780women who are murdered every day by a current or former male partner. That is a stark finding.
03:25:47.680And yet most people don't even realise how bad it is. But it's just increasing. And most people
03:25:54.180don't know about the family annihilators or familicide and obviously what's reported in the
03:25:59.640media is what people pay attention to so we've got a long way to go but a lot of my work in the UK
03:26:06.160has had some you know very good results but unfortunately in law enforcement you can bring
03:26:13.220something in and the leaders sign up to it and then they move on and someone else comes in you
03:26:17.520get this constant cycle and churn of staff but it is important to have these conversations about
03:26:23.920coercive control and stalking. And there is a lot that we can do to early identify,
03:26:30.100intervene, and prevent. And a lot of it comes from listening to the victims.
03:26:34.820The problem with a lot of abuse victims is they, of course, like when you look at the situation,
03:26:41.720you think, oh, and I used to be one of these people. If he hit me, I'd be gone. I'd be out
03:26:47.200of there. One hit. But it doesn't happen that simply. They build the control over the woman
03:26:56.060over time. They love bomb you. They come into your life, this wonderful man. So the woman falls in
03:27:03.560love with this seemingly wonderful person, sometimes marries this seemingly wonderful
03:27:07.480person. And then bit by bit, the erosion of the woman, her autonomy, her independence begins. And
03:27:14.420You make the small sacrifices first, only later do they turn into the big sacrifices.
03:27:19.800And eventually, in many of these cases, it turns violent.
03:27:23.020But by that point, the woman is so lost versus where she was a year earlier when they met, etc.
03:27:30.240She does not have the same power or resolve or confidence or just strength that she once had.
03:27:37.400They're very, very effective manipulators, these abusers.
03:27:40.540yes and you use the word they're manipulators and you know this is a very it's a behavioral regime
03:27:47.960really when we're talking about coercive control that a perpetrator will use to make someone fall
03:27:54.420in love with them so they so the love bombing that is a strategic campaign to make someone
03:27:59.340fall in love with them the gas lighting and the charm because many of these individuals are
03:28:05.840actually charming. And that's a trait of psychopathy. So the charm can happen. The victim
03:28:10.680can feel that they've met the right person. This is the love of their life. And that can be a
03:28:15.500chemical reaction to the endorphins, the dopamine, all of these good chemicals to so that we mate
03:28:23.060with somebody. So there is this thing of crazy love when somebody is love bombing us. We want
03:28:28.840to feel special. Of course we do. And then we start to spend more time with that person. And
03:28:34.680then gradually we may become more dependent on that person and that can be a strategic campaign
03:28:41.180the setup can start from day one when we meet the perpetrator and then once we are in we tend to be
03:28:49.640in deep and so it's it's very conflicting and it's very confusing and we think that we we love that
03:28:56.080person but oftentimes we don't really know who they are because they're also forcing intimacy
03:29:00.060very quickly. So the whirlwind relationship that happens. So I often say to women and girls who
03:29:07.500are meant to slow down, enjoy the honeymoon period, get to know that person in every situation
03:29:12.300possible, get to meet their family, their friends, understand exactly who they are,
03:29:16.680where's the rush? Why jump in? And I always say intimacy takes time to build. So some of the
03:29:23.380warning signs, if you've got someone who's trying to push the relationship very quickly, who's making
03:29:27.360these grand declarations of love, like John Meehan did to Deborah Newell. I want to die in your arms.
03:29:34.160I love you. I want to be with you forever, he says on date number two and three. Well, that's forced
03:29:40.100intimacy. And that's not authentic. It's an artificial and superficial thing that's happening.
03:29:47.020So slowing things down and really taking our time to get to know somebody is really important and
03:29:53.380not giving too much information away about ourselves, you know, enjoy the courtship.
03:29:57.460That's what I always say. It takes at least a year to really get to know someone.
03:30:01.980But the coercive controller can be very good at bringing their A game to manipulate.
03:30:08.160And it can all seem very plausible as well. But once they've got you under their control,
03:30:13.460and once you are dependent upon that person, and normally they isolate you,
03:30:19.160they want to take you away from your mom and your dad and your best friends.
03:30:22.600So once you're isolated, you're very much within their monopoly, your perception is monopolized by them. And actually, Biderman, who studied prisoners of war, the eight principles of what he saw, what happens to someone who's having their autonomy and their agency eroded, he's put together these eight principles of the charter coercion.
03:30:45.720it's exactly what I see. You overlay it with the victims of a coercive controller and it's exactly
03:30:51.400the same traits that you see. So we should take it seriously. And some of these men are psychopaths
03:30:57.940and they've learned their trade craft very well. I always say like, look around. Okay. After a
03:31:04.240year, look around. Do you still have friends? Are you still in touch with your family? If not,
03:31:09.000why not? Like take a hard look back and say, yes, okay. If you fall in love, you prioritize the
03:31:13.120other person. It's this mad, like, oh, I only want to be with him. Okay. But most normal people do
03:31:18.680not want to steer you away from your family, find reasons for you not to take the trip home to see
03:31:23.020mom, divert the phone call to or from mom or dad. None of that is normal. That's the beginning.
03:31:32.020Yeah. So healthy relationship is very much, and I might sound a bit LA woo-woo here,
03:31:36.820but it's very much about opening someone's world up and helping them reach their full potential.
03:31:42.300if you genuinely love someone and care for them you want their world to be bigger you want them
03:31:47.460to experience everything in life but what I see with the coercive control is they do the opposite
03:31:52.580they shrink the victim's world down they want to micromanage and micro control every part of it
03:31:58.520and they don't want other people interfering like the mums and the dads and the best friends
03:32:02.440so they shrink the world down and it's actually much more about what they're taking away
03:32:07.140from the woman. And it's an unfreedom that happens because yes, the victim might not be
03:32:13.500in shackles or chains, but they're invisible chains. So what are some of the questions to
03:32:18.980determine whether you're looking at coercive control? Well, we'd never ask someone direct,
03:32:24.560are you being coercively controlled? Because it's a very new term. But what you're trying
03:32:29.100to understand is whether somebody has their own autonomy and freedom to make their own choices.
03:32:34.460so you know and do they feel safe to make their own choices i.e could they just go to work or
03:32:40.380could they go and see a friend without having to check in with their partner couldn't can they
03:32:45.440decide what they want to wear and what they're going to eat and when they go to the gym or under
03:32:51.400are they under micro surveillance and every detail of their lives is being regulated by somebody else
03:32:57.980and there's a fear of consequence if they breach any of those rules that are being put in place by
03:33:04.440the abuser. And what I also see about these rules that get put in place, i.e. what you can eat,
03:33:10.960who you can see, when you can see them, how you dress, how you have your hair.
03:33:17.300If you have a job, then maybe you're only allowed to interact. If you're a hairdresser,
03:33:21.440you're only allowed to cut women's hair, not men's hair. These are all the rules that I've
03:33:26.280seen laid down for victims. So you're really trying to check on somebody, have they got
03:33:31.400their own agency? Have they got their own autonomy? Have they got freedom to make decisions about
03:33:37.720their own life and how they conduct themselves on a day-to-day basis? And normally with the
03:33:43.360victims, it's the smallest things that are so insidious that they're not allowed to do, or
03:33:49.140there's this unfreedom where they have to check in with that other person at all times. Even if
03:33:56.160they go and see a friend, they have to take a picture to show where they are and who they're
03:34:00.700with. Or like with Oscars Pistorius with some of his previous girlfriends, he used to make them
03:34:06.500take a photo of themselves wearing their pajamas to prove that they were sat at home. I've even
03:34:11.740seen a perpetrator say to a victim, they have to flush the toilet at home so that he knows that
03:34:16.440they are at home and they haven't left because the toilet had a very specific sound. And these
03:34:21.080are all the micro rules and regulations that you're trying to understand. Is that how somebody's
03:34:26.640having to live their life. Are they isolated? Are they closed down and closed off? Even if the
03:34:32.220victim says it's how they want to live their life. Well, as human beings, we like to interact
03:34:39.600with people. So even when I hear someone telling me that, I know that there is likely coercion there.
03:34:47.040I, not long ago, was at a social event where they were serving hors d'oeuvres. And this
03:34:54.020particular husband said to his thin in shape wife who was grabbing an hors d'oeuvre. Do you really
03:35:01.800think you need that? And it was, it just made my skin crawl because it's not, yes, it's rude to
03:35:09.700suggest this thin woman, you know, to monitor what she's eating at all, thin or fat. But it, to me,
03:35:17.840it just telegraphed there's, there's way more there that there, if he's doing that in public,
03:42:04.640And here you have a situation where Paul and that particular civil case, well, all of that was coming home to roost in that the accounts were going to be audited and they were part of that civil trial and they had been requested.
03:42:20.320And Alec had also been challenged by the chief financial officer for to the tune of eight hundred thousand dollars going missing in legal fees.
03:42:29.140And he was challenged about that. Right.
03:42:32.320So his world is starting to unravel. Maggie had left him. She was living in the beach house. She
03:42:38.320wasn't living at Moselle. So there's separation. And we know that with separation, 76% of murders
03:42:43.900happen at the point of separation. And when Alec had actually messaged her to say, I want to meet
03:42:49.760up with you, she had texted her sister saying, I wonder what he's up to. You know, he's up to
03:42:54.100something. And that's why she goes to meet him up at the kennels. But there were rumors that she
03:43:00.360wanted a divorce. There were rumors that she had a forensic accountant coming in and things were
03:43:06.320unraveling. And therefore he is now in a situation where he feels like he's losing control. Well,
03:43:11.960that can be a catastrophic set of circumstances for a man who is a lawyer. So let's not forget
03:43:18.880equally, you know, a good trial lawyer, someone who's very good at reading people and situations
03:43:24.100and up until this point has not got into trouble. But I believe he was trying to control the
03:43:29.980situation and the narrative. He was trying to control Paul and he was angry at him, hence the
03:43:35.260injuries and crime scene assessment. We look at, I look at how someone's killed because that paints
03:43:41.760a picture, the way that he was killed and the way Maggie was. And he was the one that was there
03:43:47.360at that time. That was proven through Snapchat, through the videos that Paul took, him and Maggie
03:43:52.760talking. So he lied about being present, but he was there. And he lied about whether he checked
03:43:58.320their pulses or not. He didn't have time to check their pulses and he'd changed his clothes.
03:44:03.080So this to me is somebody who is very controlling, very manipulative. And of course, there are 99
03:44:09.700charges that are still outstanding, the financial charges. So for me, this is a, and I don't like
03:44:16.480to use the word classic, but it is a classic domestic violence murder. And yes, there's debt,
03:44:21.480there's money issues and so on. And it was unraveling, but it's got all the hallmarks.
03:44:25.980And, you know, in terms of psychopathy traits, well, they all seem to be there, particularly lack of empathy and remorse and responsibility taking.
03:44:35.020Yes. Well, let's go there because this is what I don't get it.
03:44:38.980I don't get how because they showed the family videos of the birthday parties and everyone seemed to really love him.
03:44:46.200His kids seemed to really love him. He seemed to show love for his children as well.
03:44:50.700I don't know that he was in the running for father of the year, but there was testimony
03:44:54.520that they seemed like a very loving family. It wasn't outwardly, at least perceived by anybody
03:44:59.960who took that witness stand as a damaged, dysfunctional family in the sense of abuse or
03:45:05.680in that sense. So what makes a man- But it depends what you're looking for,
03:45:11.500doesn't it, Megan? Totally. To the point that we've been discussing for 40 minutes. But
03:45:15.880what makes a man who, I'm just going to say that he did love his son, Paul. I don't know how he
03:45:20.540felt about Maggie, but I'm going to say he loved his son. Like, I don't know, maybe not, maybe he's
03:45:26.000not capable of, how can a man who does love his son shoot his head off like that one day, you know,
03:45:32.520seemingly out of the blue? Well, my first question before we get to that one is why was Paul drinking
03:45:39.700to such excess? You know, a kid who's drinking that amount of alcohol to blot stuff out tells
03:45:46.940me there's more that's going on. And I don't profess to know the family. That is such a good
03:45:49.720point. Can I just say no one's asking that? That's like all the coverage I have done of this case and
03:45:54.400listened to of this case. No one, I have yet to hear anybody ask that question. That's a very
03:45:58.900good question. Because he wasn't just drinking to socialize, was he? He was drinking to absolute
03:46:04.280excess that his friends said that this Timmy character came out, this very angry, abusive
03:46:10.140drunk? Why was he drinking to that level? And why were his family letting him? That tells me a lot.
03:46:18.240And if I were to go in and ask questions, I think I'd probably uncover a lot, well, a different
03:46:23.140story and the narrative to this happy, healthy family dynamic. Because there's nothing healthy
03:46:30.340in a young boy not taking responsibility for his actions and a grandfather and a father who are
03:46:36.460just happy to sweep it all under the carpet, no matter how bad, no matter who gets injured
03:46:41.180and hurt, you know, there's very little empathy or care for anybody else other than them.
03:46:47.740It's all about circling the wagons and protecting themselves, even when Mallory died. And I do think
03:46:54.300that that is the biggest fear and threat for Alec Murdoch is all of it is unravelling and it's about
03:47:01.320the reflection on him. He wants to do what he's always done, which is circle the wagons, close
03:47:06.720everybody down, shut everything, take their voices away so that no one says what's really gone on.
03:47:12.740But it is all about to come out in a civil case, particularly the forensic accounting. So it's all
03:47:18.660about to be laid bare. And I think that when someone feels they are at that stage and the
03:47:23.720psychopathology for someone like him, where they're about to lose everything, as he sees it,
03:47:28.880he's the most important person. And he's eliminating the problem. And the problems
03:47:35.340are Paul and Maggie, because Maggie's there. So it's all a means to an end, which tells me
03:47:42.980that there's a high probability that he would score highly on the psychopathy checklist.
03:47:49.900What kind of questions are on that list? That seems like an interesting
03:47:53.460list to have, like for your first date? Well, they are, and I do indirect assessments of
03:48:00.080perpetrators, and particularly when we talk about psychopathy, because one of the traits is a
03:48:05.180pathological, that they're a pathological liar, right? So you wouldn't want to rely on them,
03:48:10.160their self-report, because they lie. And that's everything I've seen about his behavior, right?
03:48:17.280that's what he did. And superficial charm, that's the first trait that you ask about,
03:48:23.140where somebody has a glebe sense of charm. It's not really who they are. And charm is very much
03:48:28.880a manipulator. It's a choice. We're not born with charm. A grandiose estimation of self,
03:48:34.780so thinking you're bigger and better than who you really are. Pathological liar,
03:48:39.000proneness to boredom and impulsivity, manipulation, lack of remorse or guilt,
03:48:47.300lack of responsibility taking, shallow effect and superficial emotional response to things.
03:48:54.060So oftentimes the emotional range is very limited. So with family annihilators, that's
03:49:00.540what I tend to see. Their emotional range is limited. Parasitic lifestyle, sexual promiscuity.
03:49:07.720So if there's infidelity, I'm always very interested in that when someone.
03:49:12.240Happened in all three of the cases, all three that I mentioned, Murdoch, Watts and McDonald.
03:49:16.960And it's often they want what they want.
03:49:19.400And like with Chris Watts, who's in a relationship with with Nikki and lots of people blamed her were actually it's his behavior.
03:49:26.480It's his actions, even though what he did makes no sense in terms of a long term plan.
03:49:32.420And perhaps we'll get to that because psychopaths, in fact, I'll say it now, but psychopaths are very good in the moment, but they're not good long term planners and they have early behavioral problems and lack of realistic long term goals.
03:49:46.520So that's what I was talking to with good in the moment, but not very good on a longer term.
03:49:51.840Can I just jump in and ask you a quick about one you said before that shallow affect?
04:02:07.420Yes, and I think the way you describe it, you know, again, people should remember what he did and what he said he did too. And he has changed his narrative at least four times, but the way that he described putting their bodies into that oil tanker, I believe that version of what happened.
04:02:25.040And for us all to think about the fear and the terror that the children must feel, having seen what happened, I believe Bella saw what happened to her mum, and then having this sense that these horrific things are going to happen to you at the hands of your daddy, someone who's meant to care, love you and look after you.
04:02:46.360And those moments are just so haunting. And I think when we when we understand how the media characterized him as a good father, a good dad, this, you know, perfect, dutiful husband.
04:02:58.480And of course, there are all these different videos of Shanann because her business was on Facebook of her and she was described as bossy and this nagging woman and too strong.
04:03:10.900and instantly we get into the victim blame
04:03:14.460and the empathy of excusing what he did
04:26:48.060And that's what Brian Laundrie did to Gabby.
04:26:50.460And of course, we've seen photographic evidence
04:26:52.680subsequently that her family's lawyers have released
04:26:55.900for purpose just before the police were called that showed that she had an injury but the police
04:27:01.340didn't follow up when Gabby told them about the hand around the mouth and where the cuts came from
04:27:06.940and any attempt to strangle or asphyxiate by a man to a woman it increases the risk sevenfold
04:27:14.280so and it increases the risk to serious harm and femicide so it really is a high risk factor
04:27:20.400And I would imagine with Colette, whatever was seen or witnessed was probably the tip of the iceberg to what she was really experiencing behind closed doors.
04:27:29.360And if he were womanizing, cheating on her, disrespecting her, and she had two little girls, she may well have said enough is enough.
04:27:38.520And with his psychopathology and used to being in control and wanting to be in control,
04:27:44.380And I would imagine that he's a man who wants to win and things are on his terms and she's there to meet his needs. And how dare she make a decision that is not within her gift to decide. And that could be the point where he then assaults her.
04:28:03.560It could have been one of the girls. I don't know. But something happened and with catastrophic consequence.
04:28:11.560And what a horrific case. And I'm so glad that her father followed his instincts and that he kept asking questions.
04:28:18.360And that's what I ask all my listeners on Crime Analysts to do. Ask questions, be curious and always trust your instincts.
04:28:25.000And the people who know someone like Jeff McDonald the best, the father who's observed him in different situations, knows when something's not right.
04:28:34.760And thank goodness he was there to advocate on behalf of his murdered daughter and grandchildren.
04:28:41.020Sometimes that's exactly what it takes to get to answers, the real answers and the truth of what went on.
04:28:47.120Just like we saw Chris Watts confessing to his dad when everything is stacked against him and he's got nowhere to go.
04:28:52.720his dad was the one that ultimately got the answer out of him by flipping it on to Shanann and then
04:28:59.520he confesses so again the people who know the the perpetrator the best they're the ones who should
04:29:05.400really be asking questions and working with professionals to make sure the right questions
04:29:11.200are asked and not to let something go when something seems off let's spend a minute on Gabby
04:29:16.960because, you know, I have to admit to you,
04:31:06.040what do you make of that whole thing? Yes I've spent a long time on crime analysts going
04:31:11.580through the case and dissecting forensically the police stop because of course it is on
04:31:18.180their body cam footage and the first thing that struck me about Gabby was just how emotionally
04:31:23.840dysregulated she was and you know I trained law enforcement I wrote the book Policing Domestic
04:31:29.440Violence that's behind me with two police officers when I was at New Scotland Yard
04:31:33.360and it's part of the Blackstone Policing Guide series of helping officers ask the right questions
04:31:40.020and use their powers. And one of the key things is if you've got a victim in trauma, which Gabby
04:31:45.760was clearly emotionally dysregulated, find out why. And if you've got a perpetrator, and bearing
04:31:53.260in mind the 911, the call that came in was about, and I'll quote it, a gentleman slapping the woman.
04:31:59.920Well, that ain't no gentleman for a start. But the point was that the call was a call for assistance because of the male's behavior, not the female's. And Gabby instantly took responsibility, which a lot of victims do. And therefore, the attempt to separate them was the right one.
04:32:16.400But putting her in the back of the police car, which is where you put a suspect, and shutting her off wasn't a good move.
04:32:23.620And keeping Brian out and spending 80% of their time with Brian, who straight away threw Gabby under the bus in an attempt to manipulate and control the narrative.
04:33:12.480So who really is the person with the power and control here?
04:33:17.820It's very obviously Brian and that she was in fear
04:33:21.160and she was trying to get her keys and get her phone.
04:33:25.060She just wanted to be in the van and he was controlling her movements
04:33:28.400and not allowing her to have the space that she needed to be in her van
04:33:32.920and he was threatening to leave her there on her own, a lone female.
04:33:36.800And that narrative should have been challenged.
04:33:38.700the that case is reminding me of you know some of these other cases that we're discussing like
04:33:46.200like the mcdonald one where oh colette she was so happy she was this domestic
04:33:50.060wife of uh this you know green beret surgeon and the two little girls that's what we saw
04:33:55.780on the outside and what we also saw in the gabby case was the van and i love the van and
04:34:01.960fan life and we're doing our yoga. This image that we know was untrue. We were being misled
04:34:10.400and it's not uncommon at all for the victims of domestic violence or the perpetrators of it
04:34:17.640to mislead us actively and willingly. Yes, but the clues are there. I mean,
04:34:24.340when you get two independent male witnesses calling it in because they're concerned,
04:34:29.280it takes a lot to call the police. Most people don't want to get involved with the police. So
04:34:33.080for two independent men to say there's a problem, well, that's the first thing that they should pay
04:34:38.080attention to. What are they being told? Why are they even attending? You know, Officer Robbins
04:34:42.640did try and do the right thing, but he was a junior officer. He wasn't even through his training
04:34:46.700period. And Eric Pratt, the supervisor, was the one that made a very quick decision that Gabby was
04:34:52.520the primary aggressor. Well, actually, I wrote the chapter on primary aggressor,
04:34:58.820because we have the same, where you have to be very careful in not just believing the calm,
04:35:05.340cool, collected male narrative. And oftentimes that's what police attend, a distraught,
04:35:12.600emotionally dysregulated female and a very calm, cool and collected individual, a male normally.
04:35:20.200And then they gravitate to that cool, calm, collected male and their narrative rather than
04:35:24.900thinking, why is this young woman so emotionally dysregulated? This is a disproportionate reaction
04:35:30.220to what we're being told. And hang on a minute, didn't Brian say she's got this little website?
04:35:35.780Isn't he devaluing her and saying, oh, she's crazy, making out that she's the crazy one.
04:35:41.560And even when Officer Robbins tried to challenge him, he again threw it back to Gabby being the
04:35:47.180problem. So with experience, and that's why supervisors and mentors are very important
04:35:52.360to check and to challenge and unfortunately with misogyny oftentimes and those officers what we
04:35:59.380saw was yes they may look like they are being caring towards Gabby but they were also very
04:36:05.380misogynistic and very patronizing and condescending and you know did they not realize that 16 to 24
04:36:12.860year olds are the most at risk group of domestic violence and femicide the women because in 2021
04:36:21.5202022 and 23 it's unacceptable for officers not to be trained so for me this is a very clear
04:36:27.700training issue but the attitudes are also problematic when they instantly go into just
04:36:33.700believing the male narrative without any challenge and they put her in the box of just being the
04:36:39.040hysterical emotional woman and aren't all women crazy because that was the subtext between Brian
04:36:44.920and those officers with their fists pumping and all these women are you know my ex-wife she's on
04:36:51.080she's no longer my wife anymore, and she's on pills because she's so crazy. These were the
04:36:56.740things that the officers were talking about with Brian. And then they were laughing and joking. And
04:37:02.200for Gabby, who's in the back of the car, is she hearing them laughing and joking? How does that
04:37:07.060feel to her when she's just on her own, isolated, and there they all are joking and laughing with
04:37:12.520Brian? That sends a very clear message to her. You know, this is all leading me to recall something
04:37:20.200you wrote about how we socialize girls all wrong in some ways. Be a good girl. Go along to get
04:37:27.280along. Don't make waves. The pain in the ass girl is somebody nobody wants to be around or promote
04:37:32.700or work with. We talk about it a lot these days because there are all these teachers who want to
04:37:38.460have secrets with our kids now. And a lot of us mothers have been saying, you don't get to have
04:37:44.380secrets with my child. No adult gets to have secrets with my child. I'd raise my children to
04:37:49.660understand that that's a big red flag, a grownup who wants to have a secret with you. That's how
04:37:55.140kids get abused. And it's how women get abused. It's just like a common theme that I'm feeling
04:38:00.440now and listening to you. And I want to leave it on an empowering note so that the people
04:38:07.200listening to this don't just feel like, oh, it sucks to be a woman. I'm going to get abused.
04:38:12.980No one's going to care. The laws don't protect me. I'm going to fall in love, but it's going to
04:38:17.200turn out to be some abusive psychopath. What can women do, right? Like meaningful things that they
04:38:24.180can do to protect themselves, to take control of their own lives and their own safety?
04:38:31.960Well, I think, you know, girls are groomed to be polite, compassionate, and to put other people's
04:38:37.060needs above their own. And what we need to do is, yes, you can still be polite, but to know your
04:38:42.100own needs and not be afraid to voice what you need and not be afraid to be difficult. Because
04:38:49.760you mentioned the good girl, but those of us who challenge things, we're the difficult ones. We're
04:38:54.460the ones that tend to run into problems because we're asking the difficult questions. So the
04:39:01.020things that I always say are to be curious. When something doesn't feel right or look right or
04:39:05.720sound right, be curious and ask questions about the person. Don't just accept their word for it.
04:39:12.100don't, you know, ignore what your instinct is telling you. And that's probably the biggest one
04:39:18.780is trusting your instinct. If something feels right or somebody feels off, you know, every
04:39:24.340rape case I've worked, every time when I've gone back through the statement, the woman sensed when
04:39:28.500she was in danger and then she didn't want to upset the person. So she didn't get off the train.
04:39:33.700She didn't walk across to the other platform or go down a different street. She didn't want to
04:39:38.620upset the person. So, you know, not being polite in that way to the detriment of our own safety
04:39:44.480and to always, always trust your instinct. We have more brain cells in our stomach than a dog
04:39:51.000has in its head. And I've got a rather lovely golden doodle called Beatrice, but when my gut's
04:39:56.020tweaking, it's telling me something. So always listen to that because we can talk, Megan, and
04:40:01.700you can, we can try and empower women, but only women can empower themselves, right? To ask the
04:40:08.120questions, to take action. And don't be afraid to ask advice from older people, you know, older
04:40:15.280mentors, females. I mentor a number of younger women of things that where they say, but is this
04:40:20.420normal? Is that right? I mean, he says that that's what everybody does of sending pictures, you know,
04:40:26.940naked pictures, etc. But he says, I'm a prude when I don't do it. I mean, should I? You know,
04:40:31.880my number one rule is never send pictures because you don't know where they're going to end up.
04:40:35.960So, again, just asking, trusting someone, you know, like yourself, myself, and asking those questions from someone who's seen it and done it before and to be mentored.
04:40:45.560Because I think for younger women, particularly 16 to 24, they're not taught what a healthy relationship is.
04:40:54.360They're taught how to have sex and the mechanics of it.
04:40:56.860But they're not taught about emotional safety and, you know, being in a healthy relationship of what's healthy versus what's unhealthy.
04:41:05.960And I think if we were doing that piece, we would be able to spot the behaviours and we'd do it with boys as well, boys and men, of what behaviours are they learning that's bad, that they shouldn't be using. And it's early that we want to get into it. Age appropriate discussions, of course. And I agree with you, the secret things is a big problem.
04:41:25.160You know, that's how pedophiles and sex offenders, how they get the trust of a child that it's a secret between me and you.
04:41:32.200So teachers should absolutely not be talking about secrets.
04:41:37.960So, yes, I think it's having more conversations and girls and women, you know, stepping into their personal power and not being afraid to to make a noise and get louder when there's a problem.