The Megyn Kelly Show - Jordan Peterson on Pathological Masculinity, Alarming Political Gender Gap Among Young Voters, and Snow White ｜ Ep. 1035

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00:01:01.440 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:03.300 Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at New East.

00:01:13.040 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:01:14.840 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:01:16.320 Oh, we've got a treat for you today.

00:01:18.420 With a guest who has not been on this show in nearly three years.

00:01:22.500 He's only been here one other time.

00:01:24.340 Way back in April of 2021, episode 84.

00:01:30.580 I mean, that's a long time ago.

00:01:31.980 We weren't even on video.

00:01:33.220 It was just an audio interview by phone.

00:01:35.340 Jordan B.

00:01:37.380 Jordan B. Peterson is a fascinating thinker and a leading intellectual of our time.

00:01:42.940 And there may not be a greater voice over the past decade speaking out about the crisis

00:01:47.260 with men and boys and more.

00:01:49.260 Plus, his home country is about to become our 51st state.

00:01:52.980 So that's exciting.

00:01:55.140 He's Canadian.

00:01:57.340 Most recently, I mean, he's sold 14 million books in the past couple of years.

00:02:02.680 It's pretty impressive.

00:02:04.960 But most recently, he authored We Who Wrestle With God, Perceptions of the Divine.

00:02:12.200 And he's also the host of The Daily Wires, the Jordan B. Peterson podcast, and founder

00:02:16.960 of Peterson Academy, which I have to tell you, I've spent a fair amount of time nosing around

00:02:23.580 on and clicking on videos and is well worth it.

00:02:26.380 And then I subscribed.

00:02:27.580 I started buying stuff.

00:02:29.480 Don't go there unless you really want to get attached and you have some time to devote

00:02:32.580 to it.

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00:03:13.700 Jordan, great to have you back.

00:03:15.440 It's really good to see you.

00:03:16.800 Oh, so yeah, I love Peterson Academy.

00:03:19.060 It's very smart.

00:03:20.040 It's it's a place for someone to educate themselves.

00:03:22.560 You know, the people who are rejecting possibly going to Brown University in today's day and age

00:03:27.840 can instead go to Peterson Academy and learn lessons that actually really will help them

00:03:33.440 improve their lives.

00:03:34.880 What's what's the goal of it?

00:03:35.960 Let me just start there.

00:03:36.740 And who's it for?

00:03:38.000 Well, the goal was to bring university education into the 21st century on more specifically,

00:03:44.520 to find the best professors in the world and to bring them to everyone at the lowest possible

00:03:50.400 price.

00:03:50.960 And I'm in a fortunate position because I have interviewed and met thousands of people

00:03:57.560 and I have a very large connection among academics and thinkers in general and and a reasonable

00:04:04.920 reputation among them.

00:04:06.100 And so if I talk to them about Peterson Academy and invite them to lecture about whatever they

00:04:10.640 would love to lecture about, they're very likely to do that.

00:04:13.820 And we have an extremely efficient team.

00:04:17.000 So we like to joke that we're 10 times the quality at one 20th the price.

00:04:23.460 And I actually think that's about right, because at the typical large university, regardless

00:04:30.140 of its reputation, the bulk of the lectures are not top great, top rate.

00:04:37.640 I'd say maybe 10 percent of them are and all of ours are top one percent.

00:04:43.140 And so you can learn a tremendous amount.

00:04:46.560 We have a very good social network there, too.

00:04:48.760 It's free of bots and trolls and the sorts of people who make normal social media interaction

00:04:55.980 quite the insanity provoking ordeal.

00:04:58.900 And our social media site, The Quad, is very positive and upward aiming and people seem to

00:05:04.700 enjoy it a lot.

00:05:06.220 Well, it's a great idea.

00:05:07.360 I love that you're doing it and really, as is typical for your voice in the national

00:05:12.840 conversation, helping people, really helping people.

00:05:16.780 I've got to kick it off here, because what happened was yesterday I went on the Adam Carolla

00:05:22.940 show and he wanted to discuss.

00:05:26.740 I don't think we ever actually got to it, but he wanted to discuss this article he drew my

00:05:31.100 attention to from NBC News, dated March 24th.

00:05:34.880 And the headline of the piece is, the plight of boys and men, once sidelined by Democrats,

00:05:43.600 is now a priority.

00:05:45.540 And the sub-headline is, in recent months, three Democratic governors have announced

00:05:50.860 initiatives geared toward helping boys and men.

00:05:55.520 And when I saw initiatives, my note on the page was, duh, no, right?

00:06:00.240 Like, to me, I'll tell you what they're doing, but you're the expert, and you tell me because

00:06:05.480 you've been speaking out about the plight of boys and men a lot longer than NBC News has

00:06:09.360 been paying attention to it.

00:06:10.640 You tell me whether they're getting it.

00:06:13.020 I'll give you a couple of examples.

00:06:14.360 So it just happens to be at least two of the three are presidential hopefuls on the Dem

00:06:18.860 side.

00:06:19.720 The third is Ned Lamont of Connecticut, my adopted home state, who is very clueless.

00:06:24.840 But the other two are Wes Moore of Maryland, who's said to be on the short list, very charismatic,

00:06:30.900 black governor who is more centrist, or so they'd have us believe in his approach to governing.

00:06:38.160 And then there's Michigan governor Gretchen Whitmer.

00:06:41.640 So here's what they're doing.

00:06:42.880 Uh, okay.

00:06:45.920 Moore says the well-being of our young men and boys has not been a societal priority.

00:06:51.200 True.

00:06:52.100 Then he says, um, hold on, let me find it, that he's going to create programs, uh, to help

00:07:00.360 in particular boys from the inner city, uh, and encourage them to pursue jobs in education

00:07:06.980 and healthcare to help boys with the juvenile justice system and to make sure he solicits

00:07:13.520 input from boys and men on how those initiatives are designed.

00:07:17.340 To me, this seems like he's focused on inner city boys and helping them overcome poverty and

00:07:22.500 so on.

00:07:23.320 Okay.

00:07:24.300 Then there's Gretchen Whitmer who shared plans on how she's going to boost young men's enrollment

00:07:29.400 in higher education and skills training.

00:07:32.780 And then there's Ned Lamont of Connecticut who announced what he called a DEI initiative,

00:07:38.620 which he thinks, quote, folks on both sides of the aisle may appreciate to get more men

00:07:44.640 into teaching.

00:07:46.140 You're going to tell me what my reaction to this was you've shot and you've missed.

00:07:55.300 They need to spend more time at Peterson Academy, but you tell me whether this is the answer.

00:08:03.540 Well, it's a little late in the game to be concerned about the sorts of things that

00:08:07.620 I would say the progressives have actually produced.

00:08:10.420 I mean, we've had four generations, say 60 years at least, of targeted demoralization of

00:08:18.020 young men and, well, men in general, boys, young men and men in general, because boys' 0.74

00:08:24.880 play preferences are verboten in schools, which is why so many of them are diagnosed with

00:08:31.500 attention deficit disorder, which as far as I'm concerned is a category that rarely even

00:08:37.500 exists and is radically over-prescribed.

00:08:40.840 Boys, on average, are more active than girls and they're less agreeable. 1.00

00:08:45.560 So they're more of a, you could say they're more of a discipline problem.

00:08:49.040 It depends on what you're trying to discipline them to do.

00:08:52.540 And so they're discriminated against as boys in the education system.

00:08:58.480 And then as young men, they're taught that all of their ambition, their competitiveness,

00:09:05.520 let's say, is nothing but a manifestation of the forces that have oppressed women for

00:09:12.060 millennia and also are contributing to the industrial desecration of the planet, that marriage is a 1.00

00:09:21.080 patriarchal, oppressive institution, and that what propagating the human race in general as a

00:09:30.280 responsible man is the worst thing you can do for the future.

00:09:34.920 I don't really see that a few scattered, half-wit DEI programs aimed at rectifying the consequences of 0.98

00:09:43.000 this idiot propagandizing are going to have the least bit of difference. 0.95

00:09:47.900 They're certainly not going to get more men in the teaching system. 1.00

00:09:52.600 That ship has sailed long ago.

00:09:54.600 There is no faculty more corrupt than the faculties of education.

00:10:03.000 And conservatives have been asleep, unconscionably asleep, for 60 years, while the faculties of education 0.99

00:10:10.680 promoted the worst of all possible idiot academic doctrines, whole word learning, 0.99

00:10:17.900 social-emotional learning, self-esteem training, you name it. 1.00

00:10:23.660 There's a stupid idea. 1.00

00:10:25.420 Oh, multiple intelligences, practical intelligence, all these complete travesties of psychological theory, 1.00

00:10:34.280 all adopted by the faculties of education.

00:10:37.380 The worst students generally become teachers.

00:10:40.860 They have the worst professors.

00:10:42.360 They are awarded for their pathological efforts 50% of the state budgets, right?

00:10:52.000 I don't know if you know that figure, but K-12 education eats up 50% of the state's budgets.

00:10:58.520 And it all goes to teachers who come through the faculties of education because they have a hammerlock

00:11:04.740 on certification, which the Republicans and the conservatives are still not paying any attention to.

00:11:12.000 And so you're not going to fix that problem.

00:11:16.060 Well, first of all, the Democrats aren't interested in fixing it at all because to call them in bed

00:11:21.520 with the teachers unions and the faculties of education is to say almost nothing about how deeply in bed they are.

00:11:27.800 Now, the Democrats know perfectly well that they've lost the male vote and certainly the young male vote.

00:11:35.520 Young men are more conservative than any generation has been in the memorable past, in living memory, let's say. 0.51

00:11:45.840 And that's going to happen with young women eventually, too, because young women lag young men, right?

00:11:52.360 Because young women like men that are about five years older, four years older on average. 0.86

00:11:56.560 So comparing young men and young women at any given time with regards to their political beliefs

00:12:04.020 isn't reasonable from a psychological perspective.

00:12:08.600 So, no, it's terrible.

00:12:11.980 What's being done to young men is terrible.

00:12:14.400 And we're seeing the results of that.

00:12:17.820 But that's partly why they're turning so radically all across the world, by the way.

00:12:23.700 Young men are becoming more conservative and more religious.

00:12:26.560 Interestingly enough.

00:12:28.520 Yeah.

00:12:28.880 So the Democrats are paying attention to this now because Trump won.

00:12:32.680 Because they ignored this group, more than ignored them.

00:12:36.660 They disparaged them.

00:12:37.860 They demeaned them.

00:12:39.080 They ignored them.

00:12:40.040 They were just completely undermining of any male empowerment whatsoever.

00:12:46.840 To the contrary.

00:12:48.020 They seem determined to disempower them in every way.

00:12:51.140 To make my sons and everyone else's pay some toll for the perceived sins, perceived by the left, of their great-great-grandfathers.

00:13:04.380 And now they're panicked because they like winning elections.

00:13:09.580 Go ahead.

00:13:09.880 Well, post-George Floyd, the big corporations decided that they were going to go all in on the DEI front.

00:13:16.920 And they just stopped hiring or promoting young men, Caucasian men in particular.

00:13:22.500 And so why your sons, for example, or my son, for that matter, should be paying the price for whatever hypothetical sins his ancestors hypothetically committed is,

00:13:35.740 well, that's all part of the leftist notion that people should be categorized by group and that the way you attain equity in the equity, you know, equality of outcome in the current milieu is by being prejudiced against people by inconsequence of their race and gender.

00:13:53.400 Yeah.

00:13:53.600 Well, thankfully, a lot of that's coming to an end, although let's make no mistake about it.

00:13:58.880 It's not come to an end in the universities.

00:14:01.300 I mean, you know that.

00:14:02.460 Or K through 12.

00:14:03.160 Well, yeah, well, that's just done.

00:14:08.960 And again, I put a fair bit of responsibility for this at the feet of the Republicans.

00:14:14.400 It's like, have you guys been, you guys, I don't mean you specifically, Megan, obviously, but they've been asleep at the wheel for four generations.

00:14:21.460 And even now, the Trump administration is taking aim at the Department of Education federally.

00:14:28.400 But, you know, that's a tiny proportion of the actual trouble.

00:14:31.740 The real trouble is at the state level.

00:14:34.240 And I can't see how the school system could be set up any worse.

00:14:39.680 It's unbelievably expensive.

00:14:42.940 It does a terrible job at making kids literate and numerate.

00:14:48.140 It's radically propagandistic in the most insane possible ways.

00:14:56.980 I mean, the idea that we should be teaching our children to be confused about their sexual and gender identities, period.

00:15:08.240 But let alone in elementary and junior high schools, you couldn't do anything.

00:15:11.960 You literally can't do anything to confuse children more deeply than to confuse them about whether or not they're male or female.

00:15:20.880 So, yes, and just I mean, the audience has heard this.

00:15:24.640 But just as a reminder, we pulled our children, our two boys and our daughter.

00:15:28.900 She was at a different school.

00:15:29.740 We pulled our children from their New York City private schools because of this radicalism.

00:15:34.920 When our eldest was in third grade at literally one of the best and most respected private schools in the country and an all boys school where they're supposed to have some knowledge and expertise in educating boys.

00:15:49.520 In the third grade, without telling the parents, they unleashed a several week long educational program on these boys on trans issues featuring men running around in tutus, suggesting if you like the color purple, you might potentially secretly be a girl.

00:16:09.080 And then made the little boys, all these boys in third grade raise their hands and and say on a scale of one through five, how certain they were that they were boys.

00:16:21.720 And I can't remember whether it was the five or the fist that just suggested, I'm just confused about what you're saying here.

00:16:28.900 Like, I don't understand what you're asking me.

00:16:30.500 And all these little kids chose that option because they didn't even have any understanding of what was being introduced to them.

00:16:39.220 And it was this was a school, Jordan, where all the parents who go there most are really wanting little junior to get into Harvard or Yale or Stanford.

00:16:49.100 And so these parents typically do not push back because the name of the game is to be well liked by the administration and the people who have juniors future in their hands.

00:16:58.820 And even this group after that was outraged and revolted and stood up to say, what are you doing?

00:17:06.100 They were actually teaching the children that there could be 100 genders, but at least three or four.

00:17:12.540 I mean, I heard that with my own ears from a teacher.

00:17:15.460 So I think what you're saying for people out there who are thinking, no, they can't.

00:17:20.920 No, it's absolutely true.

00:17:22.460 We lived it.

00:17:23.860 And you're right.

00:17:24.820 To me, it was child abuse.

00:17:26.240 We pulled them because they were being abused by these teachers.

00:17:31.020 Well, you see, your story just highlights how deep the problem is because you're in private school and it's a high end private school and still the same thing is happening.

00:17:44.140 And so that's an indicative of how that's indicative of how deep the rod is.

00:17:48.200 And the problem that the parents that you described still have is they think it's 1995 and that Harvard and the other Ivy League schools are what they were.

00:18:01.160 I taught at Harvard, let's say, in 1995.

00:18:04.100 I was there from 92 to 98 and it was the most effective and admirable institution I'd ever been associated with by a lot.

00:18:17.320 It was the students were super bright.

00:18:20.040 A third of them were so smart, they'd catch on to anything you told them on first exposure.

00:18:24.840 And the bottom third, who probably were geniuses at some other subject, they'd catch on with a little work.

00:18:31.680 The senior faculty were great.

00:18:33.860 The junior faculty were top rate and hardworking.

00:18:37.420 It was really a good place.

00:18:39.220 And it had a well-deserved reputation, which it had built up over decades by strenuously selecting only, virtually only on the basis of merit.

00:18:50.420 There was also some selection in terms of family history, but that didn't, overall, that didn't produce a decrement in student quality.

00:19:00.760 And since 2010, there were some signs of rot in the 1990s because some of the departments, like English, had already become pretty politically correct.

00:19:14.240 And I had my run-ins with the Department of English when I was at Harvard.

00:19:20.120 Minor things, but helling.

00:19:22.160 But by about 2010, that whole reality just, it just doesn't exist anymore.

00:19:28.360 That's partly why we built Peterson Academy, because my sense, I've also been involved with Ralston College in Georgia.

00:19:36.420 We are attempting there to build another bricks and mortar institution.

00:19:41.080 And that's been quite successful.

00:19:42.840 We've graduated three top-rate master's classes at Ralston College.

00:19:48.120 But it's a very expensive enterprise, whereas online, the price is, well, for Peterson Academy, the tuition is $600 a year.

00:19:59.640 And so now we're not accredited yet.

00:20:02.260 And that's partly because the accreditation agencies are also captured by the woke mob.

00:20:07.180 And so part of what your parents have to do is they have to understand that it's not 1995 and that you're not doing your children a service by sending them to, especially the boys.

00:20:19.700 Well, I wouldn't even say that.

00:20:21.280 It might even be worse for the girls now. 0.99

00:20:23.200 And we could get into that if you'd like, because I didn't purposely focus my attention on boys.

00:20:29.920 It's just that when I started my YouTube channel, 80% of YouTube viewers and listeners are male.

00:20:36.740 And so I picked up a big male audience.

00:20:39.220 But it's not like the girls are in better shape.

00:20:41.520 I would say, arguably, on the psychological side, they're in worse shape.

00:20:47.380 It's more than 50% of young women, 18 to 34, who profess liberal political proclivity also self-report at least one diagnosed mental illness.

00:20:59.340 And rates of depression and anxiety in that population, 18 to 34-year-old young women, have skyrocketed.

00:21:05.440 And we should also point out that the entire progressive enterprise would collapse if young women weren't being propagandized in a massive manner, not only by the universities, but by bad actors at the international level on platforms like TikTok. 0.88

00:21:23.680 Which, like, what's happening to young women on TikTok is absolutely reprehensible.

00:21:29.720 I've documented that with some of the people I'm working with.

00:21:32.000 And, yeah, it's terrible.

00:21:34.780 Well, obviously, you can't demoralize young men without simultaneously terribly affecting young women because what's harmful to one sex is going to be immediately harmful to the other.

00:21:47.880 And so all this hand-waving on the part of the Democrats, it's too little too late.

00:21:55.620 And it's also, I'm certain that they don't have the wherewithal to do this properly because virtually everything they've set their foundations on is rotten to the core.

00:22:08.420 As you can tell, everyone knows.

00:22:10.840 That's why, what are the Democrats running at now in terms of popularity in the U.S.?

00:22:14.860 Something like 27%.

00:22:16.660 With their own party.

00:22:18.440 Their own party is at that level.

00:22:21.320 Never mind with, you know, net voters.

00:22:23.940 Right, right.

00:22:24.600 I reached out to a couple of friends of mine who are on the left.

00:22:28.740 And my one friend, or at least formerly of the left, my one friend has a son who is now 16 and who was, like she was, very left, a committed Democrat.

00:22:42.880 And he's been raised in New York City, surrounded by other Democrats and gone through the school systems there, which are replete with Democrats.

00:22:53.520 And he and many of his friends now are Trump-supporting MAGA hat-wearing Republicans.

00:23:01.080 And so I asked her, after I saw this article in NBC, and I knew you were going to come on today, I said, try to explain, you know, in a nutshell, what did it?

00:23:12.060 How did he have this dramatic transformation?

00:23:14.400 Because I've known them.

00:23:15.960 You know, I saw him go from this leftist to this MAGA hat-wearing kid.

00:23:21.780 And she summed it up by saying, actually, I pulled it, but she summed it up as follows.

00:23:27.520 She said, the main communication between government and young people is education.

00:23:35.320 If the curriculum is that white voices don't matter anymore, that's alienating to every white boy out there.

00:23:43.600 She said, my son feels that they have blamed straight white men for everything.

00:23:49.560 He is not allowed to read white male authors at school.

00:23:55.020 And it reminded me, Jordan, of a story my one friend told me about his sister, who was a visiting professor at Smith College, where she came in.

00:24:03.720 They asked her to come be a visiting professor.

00:24:05.620 She was from Yale.

00:24:06.660 And she taught English.

00:24:09.040 And she got reported almost immediately to the dean of her group.

00:24:13.880 Why?

00:24:14.360 Not because her syllabus for the students had a bunch of white males on there, but because she had any. 0.99

00:24:23.540 Because there was a white male on the syllabus.

00:24:28.760 Westmore and Ned Lamont and Gretchen Whitmer will never acknowledge any of this, nor, God forbid, say that it's a potential problem.

00:24:38.740 Yeah, well, that's more indication of just how deep the rot goes.

00:24:44.780 I seriously can't see.

00:24:50.240 And I don't say this with any satisfaction.

00:24:55.460 You know, I really like McGill University in Montreal.

00:24:58.380 I had a great graduate education there.

00:25:00.280 I had a great advisor.

00:25:01.440 And I loved teaching at Harvard.

00:25:04.000 And I really enjoyed the University of Toronto for the 20 years I was there before everything fell apart in about 2017.

00:25:11.740 And I'm not the least bit happy to be pointing my finger at these institutions and say that they've not only lost their way, but that they're perverting.

00:25:26.680 And all of our young people and all of our institutions and that they're clearly not salvageable.

00:25:33.520 And I know why they're not salvageable.

00:25:35.900 So, the first reason is that they became absurdly administratively top heavy.

00:25:43.580 And that happened pretty much from the 60s onward, where all the extra money that was devoted to education essentially went not to students and certainly not to professors or researchers, but to an ever-expanding administration.

00:26:00.820 And that probably peaked around, in terms of just administration, that probably peaked around 2010.

00:26:09.360 And then the woke mob took over the administration.

00:26:12.980 And so now that's who runs the universities.

00:26:17.400 And you can get them to forego their DEI and equity terminology, but all they'll do is camouflage their same machinations under different headings.

00:26:28.540 Because they already think this way.

00:26:32.560 Those are fundamental differences.

00:26:34.580 They're not surface.

00:26:35.920 They're not going to retool their epistemological commitments.

00:26:41.520 They're not going to become different philosophically.

00:26:44.220 They're not going to learn their lesson.

00:26:46.440 And then on the faculty side, especially in the last 10 years, say, when you literally couldn't get hired at a university.

00:26:55.740 Well, first of all, if you were male and Caucasian, you could just take that off the table. 1.00

00:27:00.540 But also, if you didn't write a diversity statement that indicated your submission to or fervent advocacy of the radical progressive ideology.

00:27:16.880 And I know...

00:27:17.520 Swear allegiance to it.

00:27:18.420 But absolutely, in the University of California system, which was a great system for a long time, especially on the scientific side, 80% of candidates were knocked out of the running for beginning positions as assistant professors in the scientific realms because their diversity statements were inadequate.

00:27:40.900 This was before their research dossiers were evaluated.

00:27:45.840 Now, you just can't imagine, unless you're a scientist, can't imagine what that means.

00:27:51.160 The only thing that matters with regards to the prediction of your ability as a researcher, and this is statistically speaking, the best predictor of your future success as a researcher, is the number of publications you had as a graduate student.

00:28:10.760 Because that's actually a direct index of how well you did your job.

00:28:14.640 And so, to take that off the table in favor of racial categories and political belief means that the scientific endeavor is just, it's dead in the water at the universities.

00:28:27.640 Meaning, first of all...

00:28:28.640 This also happened, just FYI, speaking of our New York City experience, one of the top schools in New York, Brearley, that's an all-girls school, which is just a funnel to the Ivies. 0.90

00:28:40.160 And it's one of those schools where many, many parents in New York would give anything to get their child in there.

00:28:47.200 I mean, the tuition now is probably nearing $70,000 a year.

00:28:51.300 Where the same thing, you had to, as a family, applying your daughter to the school, affirm your commitment to DEI and offer one of these DEI values and how they're incorporated into your family statements on applying to the school.

00:29:09.380 So, they were screening out anybody, they didn't want anybody, and I think it's still in place, at Brearley, who didn't bend the knee fully and completely to DEI and then have specific examples of how it was being incorporated into their child rearing at home.

00:29:27.420 Keep going.

00:29:27.800 Yeah, well, so, the reason the Ivy League diploma became so valuable is that from about 1960 onward, the universities made a concerted effort to select, essentially on the basis of intellectual capacity, general cognitive ability.

00:29:47.840 And that's a measure that differs widely between people, as everyone who's ever gone to school knows, you know perfectly well that in the average class of 30 kids, there's three kids that are outstanding academic performers.

00:30:02.800 And there's three kids who just can't be taught, even the basics, without a tremendous amount of extra effort.

00:30:12.140 Everyone knows that.

00:30:13.780 And what the universities as a whole did, especially after World War II, but it really got going in the 60s, was radically select on the basis of intelligence.

00:30:25.140 And what that meant was that an Ivy League degree was a stamp of extreme intellectual competence.

00:30:34.700 And that's why the brand value went through the roof.

00:30:38.860 Now, the effect of intelligence on performance isn't linear.

00:30:44.920 It's exponential.

00:30:46.020 And so, if you can select selectively for extremely intelligent people, you get a non-linear return on your, in terms of enhanced productivity, in consequence of doing that.

00:31:01.840 And so, the universities did that, especially with the SATs and the GREs and the LSATs and the MCATs, which, although there's a lot of noise around this, are fundamentally intelligence tests.

00:31:15.020 And so, now, if you can stamp your graduates with the assurance that they're in the 99th percentile for intelligence, then it makes perfect sense for every employer worth his salt to line up to hire them.

00:31:31.060 Okay, but now what happened was the universities produced a brand that was of unbelievable economic value because of their selection technologies.

00:31:41.280 And then that got gamed by the progressives and the radicals.

00:31:45.020 So, they can destroy the universities by filling them with progressives, let's say, who are selected for reasons other than their intellectual prowess, to put it mildly.

00:31:59.100 And there'll be some lag before everybody figures out that the degrees have lost their value.

00:32:04.460 Now, that's already starting to happen.

00:32:06.240 And a lot of the tech companies are moving toward their own selection because the universities are no longer viable as screening institutions.

00:32:17.700 So, but these parents you talk about, like I said, especially in places like New York that are still democratic to the core, they still think it's 1995.

00:32:27.260 And it's not even 2000 anymore, like it's seriously not 1995.

00:32:33.600 Things have changed a lot and they're going to change more.

00:32:36.740 We hope with Peterson Academy that we can keep our students on the cutting edge of learning and that we'll leverage all the new learning technologies to make that possible and be able to do that.

00:32:47.720 And as I said, radically, radically, radically less expensively that we already have 50,000 students who've taken us up on the offer.

00:32:54.780 And so, I can't, I really can't see, Megan, I'm really dead serious about this.

00:33:00.980 You know, like I said, I was involved, am involved with Ralston College.

00:33:04.960 I've had conversations with the University of Austin folks.

00:33:07.520 If the universities were salvageable, that would be a lovely thing.

00:33:11.400 But here's a thought.

00:33:13.400 The universities are rotting everywhere, everywhere.

00:33:17.120 Okay, so one diagnosis is the reason they're rotting is because they're dead.

00:33:23.220 Like their time is over.

00:33:25.500 That's not reversible.

00:33:26.100 Well, I've watched companies fail, like big companies, tech companies, research institutions, all sorts of different large organizations.

00:33:36.740 And it's very hard to stem the tide once it turns, very hard.

00:33:42.420 And if your organization is only making one mistake, that might be fatal.

00:33:48.500 But I think the universities are making, like I made a list once, I think they're making 10 mistakes.

00:33:54.180 Well, can you believe, like I'm thinking about Ned Lamont in Connecticut.

00:33:59.360 So he thinks if he greases the wheels for more boys to become teachers, that this is going to be the solution.

00:34:08.960 Now, it would be great to have more male role models for boys in K-12 education.

00:34:14.780 I think everybody can see the value of that.

00:34:16.940 But what does he ignore?

00:34:18.080 However, he ignores the fact that we live in Connecticut, where there are a significant number of large cities, where there is a large black population.

00:34:26.600 And in over 70 percent of black homes, they are missing a father.

00:34:31.260 There is no father figure.

00:34:32.620 The father has split and there's no one who stepped in to fill the gap.

00:34:35.920 Why don't you start there, Ned Lamont?

00:34:39.100 He would never speak of that, Jordan, right?

00:34:41.960 He's not going to talk about the crisis in boys missing strong male role models and start in the black community,

00:34:48.120 which actually would help those young boys on their own get into elite academic institutions.

00:34:55.140 Much more than saying, I'm going to grease the pipeline for them to become teachers.

00:35:00.420 Yeah, well, you know, there are schools that have managed to teach non-selected inner city kids extraordinarily effectively.

00:35:12.100 There's a school in the UK called the Michaela School run by Catherine Burblesingh, which has done a job that's so good, you just can't believe it.

00:35:19.320 And so there are educational initiatives that can work and can work for minorities.

00:35:26.940 Catherine Burblesingh's school is minority dominated.

00:35:31.780 The students are selected from low tiers in the economic hierarchy.

00:35:35.520 And she graduates more students into Russell Group universities.

00:35:39.980 That includes Oxford and Cambridge and the university.

00:35:44.240 Well, let's stick with Oxford and Cambridge to begin with.

00:35:47.240 She graduates a higher percentage of her students into Russell Group universities than any other school in the UK, including Eaton.

00:35:56.060 And so the kinds of initiatives that are being proposed can work.

00:36:00.500 But one of the comical things about Catherine Burblesingh is that the UK press and the teachers hate her because she's conservative to the bone. 0.98

00:36:09.120 She used to be a lefty and her school is extremely disciplined and top down organized.

00:36:16.560 And so it's a model of education that the progressives not only wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole, no matter how good the demonstrated effects, even for minorities, but that her approach is absolute anathema to them.

00:36:31.380 Now, and then with regard to your broader comment, so it's increasingly normative in the black community for children to be raised in a father absent home.

00:36:43.440 And that's been spiraling toward the majority since the early 1960s.

00:36:50.720 But we should also note that the black population is only ahead of the game in that curve. 0.95

00:36:59.280 Like the Hispanic population curves for fatherlessness are the same as the blacks, except 10 years later. 1.00

00:37:08.260 And the same is true on the Caucasian front. 0.78

00:37:11.080 Now, that's not true for the wealthy, by the way.

00:37:14.160 The wealthy, they still get married.

00:37:16.440 Right, right.

00:37:17.660 And the Democrats won't address this fundamental issue, obviously, because they would have to drop everything they stand for in order to even admit that fathers are necessary.

00:37:27.280 And that's also appalling beyond comprehension, because there's almost no facts that are more thoroughly documented in the developmental psychology literature than the detrimental effects on children, boys and girls alike, of fatherlessness.

00:37:45.220 So, girls without a father hit puberty one year earlier.

00:37:50.020 And that's just an indication of the magnitude, even of the physiological consequences of not having a man around. 0.71

00:37:57.980 Girls mature sexually faster so they can attract a man, even though there's still children in their psychological development. 0.98

00:38:07.640 And boys without a father at the age of 12 already have telomeres that are much shorter than their peers with fathers.

00:38:18.560 And telomeres are part of the genetic structure that determines how long you'll live.

00:38:24.440 So, they're so stressed that they're already fated for an early death.

00:38:27.680 And so, and, you know, so then now you want to address the fatherlessness issue. 0.96

00:38:33.560 Okay, well, now you have to admit that marriage is not only not an oppressive patriarchal institution, which is one of the most idiotic claims you could ever possibly make, but that it's a net good for men, women and children alike. 0.92

00:38:48.800 And that any attempts to de-center it are cataclysmic. 0.97

00:38:53.260 It's like, the Democrats aren't going to go there.

00:38:56.160 That's for sure.

00:38:57.540 That's the thing.

00:38:58.480 Their entire worldview would have to be made over. 0.99

00:39:03.440 And what we're seeing instead as they flail is these pathetic attempts to slap band-aids on this. 0.97

00:39:08.820 And by the way, Westmore in Maryland, a black man, is also not addressing the fatherlessness piece of this. 0.96

00:39:14.000 He won't speak honestly about this problem at all.

00:39:16.420 But the problem for men goes well beyond the racial issue and black families and Hispanic families.

00:39:22.360 It goes well beyond.

00:39:23.120 And that's where we're, you know, where we are in this conversation we're having today.

00:39:28.600 But it is interesting to me to watch them throw darts at the board to try to figure out what is it?

00:39:34.540 Because we pulled this soundbite over to show what the problem is.

00:39:37.520 They don't care about the boys.

00:39:39.160 They care about winning elections.

00:39:41.460 That's what they care about.

00:39:42.260 And there was a very interesting discussion by Ezra Klein of the New York Times and his guest on the gender divide and why Trump won the last election.

00:39:53.800 Listen here.

00:39:55.160 Okay.

00:39:55.560 Describe it.

00:39:56.100 This chart in some ways convinced me to do this podcast.

00:39:58.540 Oh, thank you.

00:39:59.140 This chart shocks me.

00:40:00.480 I agree.

00:40:01.140 This is, to me, the scariest chart in this entire presentation.

00:40:04.600 And again, you know, something I'm very surprised by.

00:40:06.520 And so what you can see is that, you know, for voters over 30, the gender gap was fairly stable at around 10%, which is roughly where it's been in American politics.

00:40:17.640 And voters over 75, it's even lower.

00:40:19.640 But what's crazy is if you look at people who are under the age of 30, the gender gap has exploded.

00:40:25.280 If you look at 18-year-olds, 18-year-old men were 23 percentage points more likely to support, you know, Donald Trump than 18-year-old women, which is just completely unprecedented in American politics.

00:40:37.540 Is that abortion? 0.99

00:40:38.780 I think it's too early to say exactly what the cause is.

00:40:42.020 What's interesting is that this is happening in other countries as well.

00:40:45.200 There is a sense the Democratic Party is becoming much more pro-women party and in some ways sort of anti-young men, and that that just had a huge effect on young men's political opinions.

00:41:02.100 Of course.

00:41:03.100 His guess there, David Shore.

00:41:05.540 That's where his mind goes on being shown these numbers of the gender gap and why young men overwhelmingly are moving to the Republican Party.

00:41:12.520 It's abortion. 1.00

00:41:13.080 That is their number one issue on the left.

00:41:16.200 It must define everything as opposed to taking a hard look at what they, their side, has been doing to young men for, yes, decades, but the peak over the past 10 years has just driven these young men to extreme measures.

00:41:33.360 I mean, some are suicidal.

00:41:35.620 The deaths of despair have gone up to tens of thousands per year.

00:41:39.120 Remember, Scott Galloway, who's writing a book on this, he said, we've lost more men, young men, to deaths of despair, some 400,000 over the past few years, than we lost in one of the world wars.

00:41:53.360 Like, we're—that's—it's all about abortion in the mind of the left.

00:41:57.220 That's how we have to fix it somehow, Jordan. 0.76

00:41:59.220 Well, it's also—that's also a profoundly stupid theory, even from a conceptual perspective, because there's no reason, a priori, to assume that access to abortion—I mean, if it appeals to young women who want to keep the sexual revolution going with no cost, hypothetically, why wouldn't it appeal to young men for exactly the same reasons? 0.96

00:42:19.820 Like, it's just a stupid idea, but it shows you how bereft the Democrat theorists are on the ideational side to jump to that conclusion immediately. 0.97

00:42:30.320 And, you know, what they don't understand, really, there's a long list, things they don't understand. 0.98

00:42:37.420 But in the black community, let's say, with regard to black young men, is that by not concentrating on marriage—so at this group I put together in London called the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship,

00:42:53.500 we tried to put together a visionary form of conservatism and classic liberalism, let's say, because conservatives aren't very good on the vision front, generally,

00:43:02.080 because their attitude is we should just keep doing what we're doing that works, and that's not exactly a vision.

00:43:08.020 Things are so unstable now that even the conservatives have to put forward a vision.

00:43:11.860 And one of the biggest fights we had within our organization was a fight in relationship to how are we going to conceptualize support for the future, families.

00:43:23.380 And we settled on long-term, stable, committed, heterosexual, child-centered marriages, knowing that there has to be a domain of tolerance around that center ideal,

00:43:39.420 because people get divorced, and there are single mothers, and there are gay people, and, you know, and there are widows, and there are orphans.

00:43:47.380 I mean, just because there's an ideal doesn't mean you shouldn't pay attention to the margin, let's say, but the ideal has to stay intact.

00:43:56.620 Now, you might say, well, why is that a saleable message to young people?

00:44:02.100 You see, I know why, because I've been selling that message to young people for 15 years, and very successfully, so I know what I'm talking about.

00:44:10.640 What you want to tell young men is that they have something crucially important to do that's exciting and difficult and meaningful, and they find that in the voluntary adoption of responsibility. 0.94

00:44:25.260 They don't find that in idiot hedonism or in the struggle for power.

00:44:30.820 They find it in their willingness to make themselves into somebody who might be attractive to a young woman, let's say, who has her head screwed on straight enough to understand that there isn't a greater privilege that she'll have in her life, if she's fortunate, than to become a mother. 0.99

00:44:50.260 You know now, maybe half of women in the West, at 30, have no child.

00:44:57.580 Half of those women will never have a child. 1.00

00:45:00.820 They won't find a mate, they won't have a child, and 90% of them will be very upset about that.

00:45:08.240 And so, by deprioritizing marriage, we're doing young people such a terrible disservice.

00:45:15.260 It's like, let's think about young black men.

00:45:18.220 It's like, okay, they're not going to get married. 0.99

00:45:21.680 So then, first of all, why the hell should they grow up?

00:45:25.940 Like, young men grow up.

00:45:27.740 We know this.

00:45:28.540 We've known this as psychologists for decades.

00:45:30.820 Young men quit their adolescent hijinks somewhere in their mid-20s if they gain stable employment and find a mate.

00:45:42.480 And the reason they do that is because they think, well, why the hell not just drink and carouse around if no one's depending on me?

00:45:52.440 You know, and that's a reasonable question.

00:45:55.380 I'm not saying that's a particularly mature attitude, but it takes some, you need something resting on your shoulders to motivate you to take the leap into sacrificial responsibility.

00:46:10.120 But the thing about sacrificial responsibility, that's what I've outlined in this new book of mine, by the way, is that it lends meaning to your life.

00:46:19.300 Real meaning.

00:46:20.240 The kind of meaning that sustains you through suffering.

00:46:23.420 It's like, well, why not be Peter Pan and hang out forever with Tinkerbell the porn fairy and be king of the lost boys?

00:46:30.600 And the answer to that is because you miss your life.

00:46:34.020 And you have nothing to go for you, nothing to rely on when times of trouble come to visit you.

00:46:41.420 Grow the hell up.

00:46:42.760 Now, well, what does the left tell young men?

00:46:46.200 Well, if you grew up in adopted responsibility, you'd just be oppressing your wife because marriage is an oppressive patriarchal institution. 1.00

00:46:53.600 You know, even though married women with children are by far the happiest women. 1.00

00:46:59.620 The happiest.

00:47:00.580 Surprise, surprise.

00:47:01.700 Yeah.

00:47:02.000 That's right.

00:47:02.260 That was just reaffirmed in a poll that came out last week.

00:47:04.920 By far, their happiness dwarfs the other groups.

00:47:08.020 Yeah, yeah. 0.91

00:47:08.460 Well, and married religious people have the most sex. 0.92

00:47:11.540 So there's a comical statistic for you. 0.83

00:47:15.000 That's the culmination of 60 years of sexual revolution. 1.00

00:47:19.560 The hedonists don't have anybody.

00:47:23.540 They're in the basement having their way with the pornographic screen. 0.82

00:47:28.340 And the married religious couples are happy and sexually fulfilled.

00:47:33.200 Well, that isn't what anybody predicted in 1963.

00:47:37.980 So everything's upside down, Megan.

00:47:41.380 Everything's upside down.

00:47:43.020 And young men have figured it out.

00:47:45.560 And I know that because I see thousands of them everywhere, all over the world, all the time.

00:47:52.940 And I'll tell you that people who come to my shows now, they look a hell of a lot better than they did five years ago.

00:47:59.760 They're standing up.

00:48:00.500 Is that right?

00:48:00.920 They've got a partner.

00:48:02.100 They've got a child.

00:48:07.980 They tell me what they've done.

00:48:11.380 They're thrilled about it. 1.00

00:48:12.680 Enough of this, bloody Democrats, this idiot progressivism. 1.00

00:48:18.500 You just have no idea how many people that's ruined. 1.00

00:48:23.960 And we haven't even started to talk about what it's done to young women.

00:48:29.160 Christ, they're so deluded.

00:48:31.660 You know, whenever someone makes a clip of me talking about the fact that young women need to make finding a husband and having a child a priority in their 20s,

00:48:42.960 probably their early 20s, and then they can concentrate on their career if they're inclined to for the next 30 years of their life.

00:48:51.740 Just plenty to be a slave to a corporate entity.

00:48:56.640 You know, I don't make clips like that and put them online, but people clip my lectures and, you know, maybe they'll make a little three-minute piece where I'll say something like that. 0.99

00:49:06.860 And it's inevitably the case that the comments fill up with comments from young women that are so vitriolic that they just make your hair curl about, you know, this horrible old white man who's telling them what to do with their bodies, which is so idiotic because I'm trying to warn them.

00:49:23.320 I had lots of women in my clinical practice who ended up alone and childless in their 30s and then got desperate about it, you know, because you get desperate about it. 0.98

00:49:33.680 And let me tell you, that's not fun.

00:49:36.640 Well, and the other thing is these women can take the advice or leave the advice, but it speaks to a lot of people. 1.00

00:49:45.500 And why is it their prerogative?

00:49:47.360 Why do they need to tell you that you're a woman hater? 1.00

00:49:50.700 Because this is how you see the world.

00:49:53.120 This is what your expertise has driven you to conclude.

00:49:55.540 This is what interviewing and counseling all these patients has led you.

00:49:58.840 I mean, it's a valid viewpoint that they can take for what it's worth or reject, but not then comes the names, you know, calling and the mudslinging. 1.00

00:50:06.940 And we're going to get into that in a minute because I'm very interested in first of all, I'm going to show the audience what some of these Democrats are now trying to do.

00:50:15.020 And I believe it's a direct effort to recruit young men.

00:50:17.940 In addition to this effort we've discussed, there's another one underway.

00:50:21.220 And then we're going to talk more about the blowback that Jordan has received just for saying these things.

00:50:27.640 This is his POV, and it's very well informed, but it has not come without a personal and professional price for Jordan Peterson, who stays with me for the full show.

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00:52:02.520 We talked about this Democratic governor plan, at least in three instances, of somehow recruiting

00:52:11.720 young men back to the Democrat Party.

00:52:16.060 Those in power over in the U.S. Senate, for example, seem to have a different approach in mind.

00:52:25.060 And all I can guess is that this is their idea of the masculinity that they have erased from their own party.

00:52:34.320 They think this is how to restore it.

00:52:36.260 You tell me whether you agree and whether this is effective.

00:52:39.940 Take a look.

00:52:41.440 Hey there.

00:52:43.220 Chris Murphy.

00:52:44.100 Chris Murphy. 0.99

00:52:44.280 It's been a very long, long day today, full of a lot of bullshit, a lot of threats to democracy. 0.99

00:52:54.220 Tonight I want to talk about Signalgate and what a colossal fuck-up this is in terms of our national security. 0.99

00:53:00.280 Adam Schiff. 1.00

00:53:00.480 Which should divert people from the number one issue we have against these bastards. 1.00

00:53:04.800 Sorry. 1.00

00:53:05.520 These people.

00:53:06.140 So two U.S., well, three U.S. Senators, and one of whom is the minority leader.

00:53:12.540 More and more, you know, off-color words.

00:53:16.260 I'm a big fan of swearing, as my audience knows.

00:53:19.760 It only works if it comes organically to you.

00:53:22.600 This did not seem organic at all.

00:53:26.100 Chuck Schumer seemed uncomfortable actually saying it there.

00:53:28.380 But I, my own belief, Jordan, is that this is their belief of how to win young men back.

00:53:35.920 Well, that, that's a topic well worth delving into, partly because it would also enable us to talk a little bit about what's happening hypothetically, on what is hypothetically described as the right.

00:53:49.020 And so, I guess you might, there's a number of people who have influenced young men in a more conservative direction.

00:53:58.920 And I'm one of them, and Ben Shabiro is another, and Andrew Tate is a third.

00:54:03.960 And I warned people back in 2016 that if they kept making men weak, that there would be a consequence of that, because weak men do very terrible things.

00:54:20.280 They turn, for example, further models to people like Andrew Tate.

00:54:24.160 Now, the reason I'm bringing that up in relationship to the clips that you showed me is because you put together three clips that are predicated on the assumption that masculinity has this kind of brisk, pushy,

00:54:38.760 I don't give a damn if I swear on national TV because I'm so tough, kind of me into it.

00:54:45.160 And it's very easy for weak men to assume that power is the defining characteristic of a respectable man, like an actually masculine man.

00:54:58.360 And that's what Andrew Tate, at least in part, purports to sell his audience.

00:55:05.860 So, now, Andrew Tate is a very bad actor, to say the least. 0.90

00:55:10.400 He's a pimp, an electronic pimp, and I think pimps are possibly the lowest form of male life because they are parasitic on women, and that's about as bad as you can get if you're a man. 0.85

00:55:26.920 Maybe you can get lower because you could be parasitic on children, but being parasitic on women, that's pretty bad. 0.99

00:55:32.960 And he's taught his followers how to be this, you know, playboy, lothario type of love them and leave them, do it my way or hit the goddamn highway sort of attitude. 0.96

00:55:43.920 And, you know, if you've been demoralized your entire life, and you haven't been attractive to women, and you're not doing well in your career, and you're very disoriented, and you've had no role models at all, 0.89

00:56:02.000 then someone who has all the trappings of surface success, like Andrew Tate, and who's very good at flaunting it, can look like just the medicine you need.

00:56:12.500 And to give the devil his due, you know, I can understand why men who have nothing would at least want to have something, and I can see that Andrew Tate offers that to them.

00:56:26.000 And that is not any advocacy for Andrew Tate, as I've already made my view of him very clear.

00:56:34.140 Now, the left likes to think that Andrew Tate and me, for example, are gateways to the alt-right, and that somehow we're the same.

00:56:43.700 And we're not the same at all.

00:56:46.120 And what I'm offering young men is a pathway to adulthood through responsibility, not through the exercise of power.

00:56:55.280 Now, if you're powerful, and you're strong, and you're forthright, and you're articulate, then you can harness all that power into your responsibility, and that can make you an even better man.

00:57:08.180 But if you weaken men, they will 100%.

00:57:12.520 They'll become nihilistic, they'll become hedonistic, and they'll worship power.

00:57:19.000 And Andrew Tate is exactly the face of power worship.

00:57:22.120 And you can bloody well expect to see a lot more of that coming down the pipes. 0.99

00:57:25.900 And if the Democrats are daft enough to turn to a power representation of masculinity, because they're too foolish to understand the relationship, let's say, between responsibility and proper masculinity, then they deserve exactly what's coming to them. 0.98

00:57:40.960 And what will come to them is no increase whatsoever in their approval rating among young men, because anyone with a clue can see through what they're doing in 15 seconds flat. 0.99

00:57:49.880 But they'll also do nothing but promote people like Andrew Tate, and then we'll have serious trouble.

00:57:55.920 That's for sure.

00:57:57.720 You know, it's interesting, because I listened to a bunch of leftists talk about this issue in recent weeks, because I'm curious to see what they think the problem is.

00:58:09.280 And many, many, if not all, blame President Trump.

00:58:14.120 They think he's, you know, a bully. 0.97

00:58:18.240 He swears occasionally.

00:58:20.900 He's not nice to people they think.

00:58:23.220 They think he's bad to women.

00:58:24.920 And then Elon gets dumped in there for a good measure, too, as same on all those fronts.

00:58:29.960 And once again, Jordan, I think they've totally misunderstood what it is about Trump, and for that matter, Elon, that is drawing young men to them.

00:58:38.340 I don't think it has anything to do with Trump and his behavior toward women 30 years ago.

00:58:45.960 And I don't think it's Trump's occasional dropping of a swear, although I do think that makes him seem much more relatable to especially the working class.

00:58:54.000 You know, that's how folks talk.

00:58:55.820 That's how I talk, too, frankly.

00:58:58.160 But I think it makes him more relatable as opposed to a Mitt Romney who is just perfectly buttoned up and smoothed out.

00:59:04.000 You know, there's less to sort of grab onto, less grit.

00:59:06.740 Elon is incredibly successful, which I think everyone can respect.

00:59:10.660 But he's not out there.

00:59:11.900 I don't know.

00:59:12.240 Maybe he's a little pugilistic these days because he's in it and he's getting punched so often.

00:59:17.720 But can you speak to that?

00:59:18.980 Why do you think the left thinks that what's happening on the right with respect to some admiration for Andrew Tate, etc., is really the fault of Donald Trump?

00:59:28.760 That's how they interpret it, that these toxically masculine guys are the product of Trumpism.

00:59:35.560 Well, it's partly because the left doesn't have a vision of responsible masculinity. 0.93

00:59:39.560 So it's either, you know, soy boy or bully.

00:59:43.720 That's their whole theory of masculinity. 0.86

00:59:46.640 And you shouldn't be a bully because that's the worst.

00:59:49.800 And actually, that's not the worst.

00:59:51.840 If you think bully is the worst, you know very little about worst.

00:59:56.360 There's abysses of hell that make bully look like paradise. 0.89

01:00:02.280 And the Democrats, the progressives, are very naive in their conceptualization of malevolence and evil.

01:00:09.340 Like, they tend to think that bad people are victims.

01:00:11.960 It's like, that's because they, in their world, bad people don't exist.

01:00:17.040 And in my world, bad people exist.

01:00:19.640 And I know what they're like.

01:00:20.780 And bully is a pretty desirable form of bad person compared to the real monsters.

01:00:27.160 And the Democrats just have no clue of that at all.

01:00:29.500 And so they don't know what sort of man, boy, would admire if he was set on the right path.

01:00:38.380 Because, well, for example, they think marriage is a patriarchal, oppressive institution.

01:00:42.480 And so a man who's willing to offer himself as a husband and a father, well, he's just another bloody oppressor, isn't he?

01:00:49.900 I mean, from that standpoint, they should love Elon. 0.60

01:00:52.080 Elon, given his failure to marry and have a bunch of kids.

01:00:57.920 Well, it is one of the paradoxical things about Elon, too.

01:01:00.480 Like, he's a very weird conservative.

01:01:02.900 So he's not a conservative.

01:01:04.360 And neither is Trump, obviously.

01:01:06.300 Neither is Trump.

01:01:07.520 No.

01:01:07.760 And also, by the way, the divide in our society is no longer between left and right.

01:01:12.920 Those categories don't even, they don't even make any sense anymore, as far as I'm concerned.

01:01:16.680 I mean, one of the Democrats, whose video you posted earlier, pointed out that, you know, increasingly the Democrats are the side of, are the party of women.

01:01:26.440 And that's part of what's happening is actually, we're actually seeing a sex divide in terms of political affiliation.

01:01:32.080 But it's not because the women are becoming left and the men becoming right.

01:01:36.540 It's because the left is now feminine and the right is now masculine.

01:01:43.220 And the political distinctions have become virtually undetectable and irrelevant.

01:01:49.240 The old categories don't work.

01:01:52.060 Now, and it isn't, it isn't, it isn't only that the left has become feminine and the right has become masculine.

01:01:59.440 But that's a big part of what's driving the strangeness of, of today's political discourse.

01:02:05.140 Because it's also the case that the Democrats have become pathologically feminine. 0.97

01:02:10.540 And that's not the same thing as becoming feminine.

01:02:13.060 No, I get it.

01:02:14.200 Now, the Democrats will say, well, the, the, the Republicans have become pathologically masculine.

01:02:18.280 And there is a danger of that.

01:02:20.240 Like Andrew Tate's the face of pathological masculinity.

01:02:23.100 And you can see that to some degree in Trump, because he likes to throw his weight around and he's actually very good at it.

01:02:30.720 But fundamentally, like, first of all, you can look at his family.

01:02:35.420 I mean, they're a pretty high functioning bunch.

01:02:37.400 There's no Hunter Biden in the Trump tribe, you know, and he seems to get along pretty well with his wife.

01:02:43.060 And she seems to be a pretty classy character and she stays in her lane. 0.98

01:02:47.620 And I don't mean that in any misogynist way.

01:02:50.540 I mean that she's got enough.

01:02:51.580 No, in their deal.

01:02:52.820 Yeah, yeah.

01:02:53.560 Well, and she's got enough humility to play her role well and to be apparently satisfied and grateful for that by all appearances.

01:03:01.940 And so, you know, Trump is a blustery character and he's definitely got that kind of throw your shoulders around masculinity that is attractive to people who confuse power with masculinity.

01:03:15.960 But he's also, there's a lot more to Trump than that.

01:03:19.320 I mean, he's got a vicious, vicious sense of humor.

01:03:22.500 He's got a tremendous amount of energy and he's been successful at like five impossible things, just like Musk.

01:03:29.280 And you can throw that away as you would if you felt that all forms of capitalist success are just another manifestation of oppressive patriarchy. 0.99

01:03:38.600 But, you know, that's a pretty idiot theory unless you're a progressive leftist. 0.99

01:03:43.420 Yeah, I think you're exactly right on that. 1.00

01:03:46.380 So you've been saying all these things for years now, many years.

01:03:50.800 And, you know, if it may be if Wes Moore and Gretchen Whitmer and Adam Schiff and Chris Murphy and Chuck Schumer had listened to you back in 1516, maybe their party wouldn't be in this predicament.

01:04:03.740 I don't know, because you're saying it's really a worldwide phenomenon.

01:04:06.940 It's caused by leftism, though.

01:04:09.240 I think that's at its core what it's been caused by.

01:04:11.500 And I don't see leftism, more leftism being the cure for it, but it may be some awakeness on the part of the left, not wokeness, but some awakeness on what they've done to young men is a positive.

01:04:22.320 In any event, I don't know that they're capable of getting there, because one of the controversies that you suffered through as a result of speaking these truths was a Hollywood actress and director, Olivia Wilde, made a whole movie about this alleged toxic masculinity.

01:04:40.480 And it starred a fake you.

01:04:43.740 Chris Pine played a character who she admitted was based on Olivia Wilde's view of Jordan Peterson. 0.56

01:04:52.060 And she was extremely nasty talking about you. 1.00

01:04:55.420 She went on her PR tour promoting her movie. 0.98

01:04:59.620 Don't Worry Darling was the name of it, saying, you're an insane person who is, quote, a pseudo intellectual hero to the incel community. 0.86

01:05:09.820 Incel, for the listening audience, I think you know this, but it stands for involuntarily celibate young men who are not having any sexual relations whatsoever.

01:05:20.240 And the despair that comes with that is rejected.

01:05:23.300 It's really just they're painted as basically white supremacist alt-right people who gravitate onto meaningless pseudo intellectuals in Olivia Wilde's view.

01:05:32.920 And so here's just a clip from her movie of Chris Pine playing what we now know is a Jordan Peterson type.

01:05:41.520 And then we'll pick it up from there.

01:05:44.040 Dean, what is the enemy of progress?

01:05:49.820 Chaos.

01:05:50.440 Yes.

01:05:52.640 Oof.

01:05:54.500 Nasty word.

01:05:56.840 Chaos.

01:05:59.240 Merciless foe at chaos.

01:06:01.540 Energy unfocused, innovation hindered, hope strangled, greatness disguised.

01:06:09.260 I see greatness in each one of you.

01:06:12.520 I know exactly who you are.

01:06:16.600 What are we doing?

01:06:18.040 Changing the world.

01:06:19.220 What are we doing?

01:06:20.020 Changing the world.

01:06:21.560 That's right.

01:06:22.200 Okay, that was absolutely atrocious acting and directing and presentation.

01:06:27.140 But the attack on you was obvious.

01:06:31.560 And, of course, they make you seem like some faux preacher type and like a cult leader from the 1950s instead of what you're actually doing.

01:06:41.840 And there was an extraordinary moment where you went on with our pal Piers Morgan after this and he asked you about it.

01:06:48.180 And it was very moving.

01:06:50.020 But I want to play the clip.

01:06:51.240 Here it is, Sat 12.

01:06:51.980 I want to ask you just quickly, the film director, Olivia Wilde, has a new movie out. 0.96

01:06:57.060 She says it's based on you, this insane man, this pseudo-intellectual hero to the incel community. 0.78

01:07:03.300 Incel being these weirdo, loner men who are despicable in many ways. 0.99

01:07:10.520 Is that you? 0.94

01:07:11.320 Are you the intellectual hero to these people?

01:07:13.560 Sure, why not?

01:07:17.380 You know, people have been after me for a long time because I've been speaking to disaffected young men.

01:07:25.340 You know, what a terrible thing to do that is.

01:07:34.920 I thought the marginalised were supposed to have a voice.

01:07:39.460 It's making you emotional.

01:07:40.880 Talk about it.

01:07:41.260 Well, God, you know.

01:07:43.560 It's very difficult to understand how demoralised people are.

01:07:50.380 And certainly many young men are in that category.

01:07:55.320 Why did that make you so emotional, Jordan?

01:07:58.960 What is it you've seen that Olivia Wilde hasn't?

01:08:04.920 Well, I'd like to say something in defence of Chris Pine momentarily.

01:08:10.740 I heard through the grapevine, by the way, that he had no idea that that character was based on me until after he finished the movie.

01:08:18.860 And he started paying some attention to what I was saying and actually found out that he agreed with my stance.

01:08:26.100 So, now, I'm not absolutely certain that's true, but I heard it from a very reliable source.

01:08:32.100 So, if I've got that wrong, my apologies.

01:08:35.160 But I'd like to set the record clear if I do have it right.

01:08:37.500 Well, that clip's very interesting because it indicates the misapprehension of, first of all, what I think.

01:08:47.180 Like, it was interesting that the screenplay focused on chaos, for example, because it is the case that chaos and possibility tend to be symbolised with the feminine.

01:09:00.540 And that's not my doing.

01:09:02.140 And that's the basis of literary symbolism and psychological symbolism for thousands and thousands of years.

01:09:10.220 And it's partly because the feminine is a useful symbolic marker for possibility because females bring new life forms into the world. 1.00

01:09:20.280 And so, chaos isn't the enemy of order.

01:09:23.620 It's the dance partner of order in the transformation that leads to progress across time.

01:09:30.980 So, she just didn't get that right at all, like not even a bit.

01:09:35.380 And that's indicative of the shallowness of her analysis.

01:09:40.200 You know, there is an element to me that's like a 1950s preacher, you know, and that's fair enough. 0.98

01:09:46.840 I mean, I've been teaching people religious stories for 40 years and I gather large audiences and the lectures are emotional and they're motivational.

01:10:01.020 And so, I can see why people who think they're my enemy are set back on their heels by that because they don't know what to make of it.

01:10:10.280 And that's not surprising because isn't it really quite remarkable that young men will come and listen to lectures about the Bible, for example.

01:10:20.100 Like, what the hell?

01:10:21.560 There's no logic to having that be a market or that they're happy to be lectured to about responsibility.

01:10:30.300 Like, it really is a mystery.

01:10:31.680 And it's not surprising that artistic types on the left would try to figure out what the hell's going on.

01:10:37.980 But the sad thing is, is they just got it so cataclysmically wrong.

01:10:42.620 So, you know, it isn't me or the Soy Boys, boys and girls.

01:10:47.380 It's me or Andrew Tate.

01:10:49.420 So, you can take your pick.

01:10:52.800 And I wouldn't recommend the worshippers of power.

01:10:57.520 If you want to see toxic masculinity, like, you ain't seen nothing yet.

01:11:01.340 And if you think it's married men who are, like, working that are toxically masculine, then, look, here's an example.

01:11:10.600 So, you know, Disney just nose-planted remarkably with Snow White.

01:11:16.560 And so, in the original Grimm's fairy tale, which is a very, very old story, right?

01:11:23.700 Because Grimm gathered these stories.

01:11:25.540 We have no idea how old they are.

01:11:27.080 There's indication that some of our folktales are 15,000 years old.

01:11:31.400 They're really old.

01:11:33.660 And you can't mess with them because they have a logic.

01:11:36.760 Okay.

01:11:37.140 So, now you might ask yourself, well, why does Snow White have to run away from the evil queen? 0.84

01:11:43.000 Who's the evil queen? 1.00

01:11:44.920 Well, in the Grimm's fairy tale, the evil queen puts Snow White in a bodice that's so tight she can't breathe. 0.63

01:11:51.060 So, that pathologizes her sexuality. 1.00

01:11:54.500 And then she gives her a comb that makes her, that poisons her because that's the temptation towards narcissism. 1.00

01:12:02.860 And then she feeds her a poisoned apple, which is exactly what the harpy ideologues are doing to young women to destabilize their identity and to push them off the reproductive tract. 1.00

01:12:16.900 And so, track.

01:12:22.040 Both of those interpretations work, by the way. 0.71

01:12:25.100 And so, that's the evil queen. 0.99

01:12:27.060 Okay.

01:12:27.360 Now, when Snow White runs away from the evil queen, where does she go to get her act together? 1.00

01:12:32.620 Well, she goes to live among the dwarves. 0.99

01:12:34.880 And who are the dwarves?

01:12:36.360 They're hardworking, orderly, responsible, ordinary men who keep a clean house.

01:12:43.240 And she learns to be appreciative of their ability to protect her from the evil queen.

01:12:49.380 And so, she grows up and then she can find a prince.

01:12:53.660 Right.

01:12:54.220 And that, like, these are the sorts of stories that I'm telling people.

01:12:58.500 And when I tell them, they understand because the stories make sense.

01:13:02.760 Like, everything I said there is immediately comprehensible, right?

01:13:07.960 You think, oh, yes, obviously.

01:13:09.860 Right.

01:13:10.100 Well, it's not so obvious.

01:13:11.240 It's not, well, apparently controversial enough so that Disney would rewrite the entire story

01:13:19.340 and spend a quarter of a billion dollars, plus $150 billion on marketing, to make a dull mess.

01:13:28.260 Right? 1.00

01:13:28.980 And sink their damn company. 1.00

01:13:30.720 And that's, well, that's just an indication, one indication of how absolutely messed up we are. 1.00

01:13:36.900 You know, now that movie, I went and saw it.

01:13:39.120 It could have been a lot worse than it was.

01:13:41.180 You know, they reverted back to the dwarfs, and not exactly accurately, but it was still

01:13:46.800 basically a feminist revolutionary screed. 1.00

01:13:50.420 And even that could have been interesting, although it wasn't.

01:13:54.380 And the evil queen wasn't particularly evil. 0.79

01:13:57.080 But the evil queen that's teaching women right now is particularly evil. 1.00

01:14:01.620 And she's already made one quarter of them.

01:14:04.860 She's already knocked one quarter of them off the reproductive pathway. 1.00

01:14:08.440 One in four.

01:14:10.140 One in four.

01:14:11.660 And so that's a complete catastrophe.

01:14:13.800 And so, you know, Olivia Wilde, she's, you know, you can understand it to some degree.

01:14:20.520 She's trying to figure out, I imagine, how to balance career and public presence with family and more classic femininity. 1.00

01:14:27.620 And that's a hard thing to get right.

01:14:30.020 It isn't clear that we have figured that out exactly.

01:14:33.360 We certainly don't teach young women well. 0.66

01:14:35.500 And she's trying to figure out, you know, what the hell, why I'm attractive.

01:14:39.760 And am I the same sort of creature as Andrew Tate?

01:14:42.680 And am I like Trump or the worst of Trump?

01:14:45.680 These are hard things to sort out.

01:14:47.180 But the way they were sorted out wasn't helpful.

01:14:52.700 And her movie wasn't successful because it was wrong.

01:14:55.860 Like, she didn't get the story right.

01:14:57.280 The real story is a lot more interesting.

01:14:59.240 You know, because one of the mysteries she could have delved into is, like, why the hell are people, young men, letting me tell them stories about the Old Testament?

01:15:08.440 Like, how the hell did that happen?

01:15:09.700 And why is there a religious revival sweeping across the West in partial consequence?

01:15:16.240 Like, that's a mystery.

01:15:17.740 And you can say, well, that's because Peterson is a, you know, power-hungry misogynist.

01:15:22.240 But I'm actually not power-hungry.

01:15:24.080 And I'm not a misogynist. 1.00

01:15:25.440 So that's a stupid story. 0.99

01:15:27.280 And anybody who listens to me who actually listens for more than, like, 10 minutes figures that out immediately. 1.00

01:15:33.580 So she just didn't, she wasn't guided by curiosity.

01:15:38.760 She was guided by ideological pre-commitment, just like Disney.

01:15:43.020 And that doesn't work when you're telling stories.

01:15:45.760 They're dull.

01:15:46.820 The portrayal of, you know, the fake Jordan in that movie was the least of what has happened to you since the last time you were on.

01:15:57.360 Incredibly, it was not that long ago.

01:16:00.560 It was in 2022 that you were suspended from X.

01:16:05.600 This is now unthinkable with Elon in charge.

01:16:08.800 But I do believe there's a purpose to it all.

01:16:10.780 I really do.

01:16:11.980 You were suspended from X due to a post about Ellen Page, who now goes by Elliot Page.

01:16:19.380 And now she says she's a he, but she's a she. 0.99

01:16:23.760 And you tweeted out during Pride Month, which made it actually controversial.

01:16:28.620 Remember when Pride was a sin and Ellen Page just had her breasts removed by a criminal physician.

01:16:37.000 And they you got in trouble.

01:16:38.980 You got your suspended from X during that time, which was then Twitter.

01:16:41.900 And you said the suspension will not be lifted unless I delete the hateful tweet.

01:16:47.020 And I would rather die than do that.

01:16:50.500 That was one.

01:16:52.100 And then you also posted about this woman who was on Sports Illustrated in her bathing suit, who is morbidly obese. 1.00

01:17:02.720 This is May of 2022.

01:17:04.000 And you said, I'm going to leave X at this point because I've received an endless flood of insults because you saw this picture and said, sorry, not beautiful.

01:17:13.740 And no amount of authoritarian tolerance is going to change that.

01:17:18.180 That one you did later delete.

01:17:19.820 But there was so much.

01:17:21.820 No, I don't think so.

01:17:23.580 Oh, no.

01:17:23.960 OK, maybe my information is wrong.

01:17:26.260 But my point is simply you.

01:17:28.500 You are not allowed to have those opinions, Jordan.

01:17:31.060 You can't say that Elliot is still really Ellen and no and not a woman any longer.

01:17:39.500 And you can't say that a morbidly obese woman in this Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition is, in your opinion, not beautiful.

01:17:50.360 And by implicit implication, that you prefer the old approach to Sports Illustrated swimsuit models, which in which you speak on both fronts for ninety nine point nine percent of the world that's willing to be honest.

01:18:04.140 Yeah, well, with regard to Paige, you know, like I think what's up to her is just an absolute bloody catastrophe.

01:18:10.020 Like I I think it's terrible, like seriously terrible.

01:18:13.620 And I would regard her as a victim and accept that she paraded it.

01:18:21.140 And the problem with that is that once you parade your self-destructive proclivity as a virtue, you're no longer a victim, you're a perpetrator.

01:18:35.940 And so that was the dividing line for me.

01:18:37.560 Like she must have been stunningly unimaginably unhappy to have gone through what she went through.

01:18:47.420 And I can only imagine what how she got there.

01:18:50.820 And I think that the physicians and the counselors who enabled her in that, I believe they should be put in prison for the rest of their life.

01:18:58.900 Yeah.

01:18:59.420 And I think it's absolutely unconscionable.

01:19:01.840 So that's really sad.

01:19:03.580 But I used to watch Paige when she was a young woman on the Trailer Park Boys in Canada, which is this like off color, hilarious Canadian sitcom.

01:19:12.280 And she was so charming and so she was great in Juno.

01:19:15.580 Oh, yeah.

01:19:16.280 Yeah.

01:19:16.520 She's such an attractive person.

01:19:17.980 And I can't imagine.

01:19:23.960 How much pain.

01:19:29.500 She must have had to do that. 0.60

01:19:33.580 But you don't get to tell young women to do it.

01:19:37.580 You don't.

01:19:38.160 Sorry, that's just not acceptable.

01:19:40.240 And then with regards to the swimsuit model, like it has nothing to do with what I find attractive.

01:19:46.120 Oh, well, it does insofar as what people find attractive has a universal element, which has been well documented by biologists.

01:19:55.360 Symmetry, for example.

01:19:57.220 Right.

01:19:57.360 But the thing is, everything about that photo was a lie.

01:20:01.520 It was a lie to manipulate the consumer because it was so radical.

01:20:06.040 It was a lie because it's sports illustrated.

01:20:10.360 And to be an athlete, you have to be physically fit.

01:20:14.020 And morbidly obese and physically fit are opposites.

01:20:18.400 And beautiful.

01:20:19.780 Well, you could argue that Sports Illustrated should have never gone into the swimsuit model business, but they did.

01:20:26.500 And it means that to accept that photograph as a valid statement of the truth, you have to dispense with the idea of beauty and athleticism.

01:20:36.820 And I'm not doing that because beauty has value and so does athleticism.

01:20:42.320 Now, that doesn't mean that someone who's obese, who's eaten way too many carbohydrates because they've been diluted by their government for 40 years, is not worthy of a certain degree of sympathy.

01:20:54.980 I certainly regard obesity as a disease.

01:20:59.440 I don't think it's a problem of willpower.

01:21:01.700 I think that's a big mistake.

01:21:02.920 I think that the Department of Agriculture gerrymandering of the food pyramid for marketing purposes pathologized the whole society in an absolutely appalling manner.

01:21:14.320 But that doesn't mean that obese women on Sports Illustrated get to be regarded as beautiful. 0.99

01:21:21.700 No.

01:21:22.420 But here's the thing about that that's so infuriating.

01:21:24.920 So this woman, her name is Yumi Nu, she's allowed to pose in a public magazine. 1.00

01:21:33.960 She's very well aware that in her hopes, millions of people will see this photo and comment on it.

01:21:40.800 But in her mind, the bargain, and in the mind of the left, the bargain can only include positive feedback, compliments.

01:21:50.700 And anybody who doesn't feel that way about it and is honest about it is a villain.

01:21:55.460 But meanwhile, you were not commenting and probably didn't even know who this Yumi Nu was prior to her choice to put her body into a bikini and on the pages of Sports Illustrated.

01:22:06.460 You weren't picking on her.

01:22:07.760 You weren't just sitting around thinking, like, how can I criticize some random obese person?

01:22:12.160 She asked you to comment on her.

01:22:15.620 She asked you to.

01:22:17.120 That's why she was in a magazine. 1.00

01:22:19.860 But under their rules, which are not the Jordan Peterson rules for life, you are not allowed to be honest if honesty is anything other than absolute praise.

01:22:30.080 Well, that's, we talked earlier a little bit about the shift in the political world to the toxic, toxically feminine. 0.99

01:22:39.480 And the toxically feminine has a definition. 1.00

01:22:43.520 It's uncritical acceptance.

01:22:46.740 Right now, we can take that apart, and we should.

01:22:49.460 So, it's really complicated, because when you're the mother of a newborn, the right ethos for you to adopt is uncritical acceptance.

01:23:01.620 Because for the first nine months of a child's life, before the child can crawl, let's say, and can get around on its own,

01:23:09.120 the right attitude to have to that child is that everything it wants, it should be given,

01:23:14.700 and everything it needs is not only good, not only fine and acceptable, but good.

01:23:20.040 So, it's complete uncritical acceptance.

01:23:21.840 And so, women have to have that capacity. 1.00

01:23:26.300 And it is a core part of what's admirable about femininity. 0.93

01:23:31.000 But that doesn't mean that it's the sine qua non of morality.

01:23:36.660 Like, you also need judgment.

01:23:39.120 And, like, it's been known forever that the highest divinity, let's say, God, for all intents and purposes,

01:23:49.160 rules with two hands, mercy and justice.

01:23:53.360 And mercy without justice is a devouring force.

01:23:57.560 And justice without mercy is totalitarian catastrophe.

01:24:02.140 You have to balance them.

01:24:04.020 And the progressive left is all merciful.

01:24:07.360 And the problem with that is that that's the stance of the devouring mother. 0.98

01:24:11.960 Everything you do is okay, dear.

01:24:14.420 It's like Nicola Sturgeon in Scotland, the former prime minister.

01:24:19.160 Any man who says he's a woman is a woman. 0.97

01:24:22.820 Okay, there's radical acceptance. 1.00

01:24:24.880 All right, Nicola, how about the serial killing sadistic rapists? 0.99

01:24:30.900 Oh, they're victims. 0.98

01:24:32.760 It's like, first of all, most people who are victims don't become serial killing sadistic rapists.

01:24:40.860 So the causal pathway isn't clear.

01:24:43.540 And second, if you have one of those people under your bed and you think they're a victim, 1.00

01:24:48.780 you're going to find out very quickly that you live in a world designed for dead fools. 0.99

01:24:54.940 And so, well, there's tolerance, you know, fair enough. 0.99

01:25:00.900 And maybe we should even err on the side of tolerance.

01:25:04.120 But when it comes to the monsters, we need to draw a line.

01:25:08.760 And you see, men, real men do that.

01:25:12.460 So, for example, one of the things I talk about in my book,

01:25:16.020 We Who Wrestle With God, is the symbolic image of the shepherd in the Old Testament.

01:25:20.940 So, you know, Moses is a shepherd, and Abel is a shepherd, and King David is a shepherd,

01:25:27.820 and eventually Christ is associated with the shepherds.

01:25:31.800 And there's a reason for that, like a real reason.

01:25:34.960 So a shepherd is an ordinary man, an ordinary good man,

01:25:38.360 kind of like the dwarfs that we talked about in Snow White.

01:25:41.540 And why is a shepherd a good man?

01:25:44.540 Well, in biblical times, shepherds had to fight off wolves and lions.

01:25:51.640 And they did that relatively unarmed.

01:25:54.660 You know, David, for example, killed lions with a slingshot.

01:25:57.980 Think about that.

01:25:59.580 And so, to be a shepherd, you had to be able to keep the lions and the wolves at bay,

01:26:04.640 so the predatory monsters, and yet you had to care for the most vulnerable.

01:26:09.420 And that would be the lambs.

01:26:11.040 Okay, so that's what you want in a man.

01:26:13.060 You want someone who can see the monsters and keep them at bay, you know,

01:26:19.660 but who can also care for the vulnerable.

01:26:21.780 Now, you know, if you're a chest-beating, power-worshipping, monstrous man yourself,

01:26:28.300 well, you might be pretty good at keeping the other monsters at bay, 0.87

01:26:32.260 the kind of psychopathic, quasi-criminal types of men who aren't cowardly or dependent.

01:26:38.800 You know, they at least have that going for them.

01:26:40.620 But they're not very good at providing comfort and shelter to the truly dependent, right?

01:26:50.940 So that's where they fall apart.

01:26:52.300 And so men have to do both.

01:26:55.380 And that's what I've been trying to tell men.

01:26:57.520 And this is also the sorts of things that the Democrats and the progressives just don't understand.

01:27:03.040 No, it's not going to be fixed by, let's make more of them teachers.

01:27:08.540 I got to take a quick break because I got to get this ad in.

01:27:10.600 And then we've got to touch on women and what all this is doing to women in particular when we come back with Jordan.

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01:28:56.040 I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM.

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01:29:59.520 So, Jordan, how does all of this affect women who need men?

01:30:05.100 Well, I think the most striking statistic that I know of is, well, the two striking statistics.

01:30:11.020 The two we already discussed, the radical rise in unhappiness among unmarried young women who have liberal proclivities and the fact that 50% of women in the West now who are 30 don't have a child and that half of those will never have a child despite wanting one.

01:30:31.900 That's, it's so dreadful.

01:30:34.320 Like, you just take those women, you know, let's just think about them for a minute. 0.96

01:30:38.460 So, that means that half of women at 30 who don't have a child, half of them will search for a mate and try to have a child, let's say, through their 30s.

01:30:50.240 And then that won't work.

01:30:51.960 And so, then they'll hit 40 and they'll be alone for 50 years.

01:31:01.620 Right.

01:31:02.100 And the thing is, you know, as you get older, the people that you have gathered around you, your family, become increasingly important to you and increasingly necessary.

01:31:14.700 And what you do when you mature is that you start attending to other people more than you attend to yourself.

01:31:23.520 That's the definition of maturity.

01:31:25.500 Now, you know that as a mother.

01:31:26.940 And you also know that that's a relief.

01:31:30.860 Right?

01:31:31.400 It's that you find your purpose in that.

01:31:34.700 That's right.

01:31:36.020 You know, when the lefties, they talk about marriage as a patriarchal oppressive institution.

01:31:40.820 And, you know, you can be unlucky.

01:31:42.960 And some women are. 1.00

01:31:44.420 They find a man whose, his mode of relation is power.

01:31:49.780 And they end up subjugated, although they generally play their own part in that.

01:31:53.520 Because women aren't that easy to subjugate, all things considered. 1.00

01:31:56.780 No, they say you teach people how to treat you.

01:31:59.800 Yes, well, like women have their mechanisms and they're very effective. 1.00

01:32:03.820 Let's put it that way.

01:32:05.120 So, but you see that the problem with the progressive liberal types is they think that being mentally healthy is a matter of getting your individual psyche in order.

01:32:18.800 And that's not right.

01:32:20.200 Being mentally healthy is a matter of arranging the hierarchy around you that you belong to in a harmonious manner.

01:32:28.980 So that there's you and your relationship with yourself.

01:32:32.520 But then there's you and your relationship with your husband.

01:32:35.200 And then the relationship between both of you and your children.

01:32:38.680 And then the relationship between your families and other families in your town.

01:32:43.680 And then with regard to your state and your nation.

01:32:47.660 And then with regards to the natural world and to whatever's beyond that, say, in the landscape of divinity.

01:32:55.600 And happiness, resilience, meaning, purpose are all a consequence of organizing that hierarchy properly and finding your place within it.

01:33:06.980 It's not an individualistic pursuit, you know, and even the Scottish liberals, let's say, of the Enlightenment, who established liberal individuality, did that with the presumption that they were operating within a radically Christian framework and society.

01:33:27.480 So what they did was they took the existence of that hierarchy for granted and then said, well, if you organize that property, then you can be a fully functioning individual.

01:33:39.820 Well, it's like, fair enough, but when all that collapses and half and an increasing majority of young people are headed for a relationshipless and childless future, then none of those liberal presuppositions hold.

01:33:59.180 And so that makes everyone, well, it deprives their life of the meaning that comes in social service, you know, and look, human beings are unbelievably social.

01:34:14.200 You know, you can take psychopathic murderers and you can punish them by depriving them of other people.

01:34:24.380 That's how social we are, right?

01:34:26.880 So think about that.

01:34:27.840 That's a good point.

01:34:28.640 Like, yeah, right.

01:34:29.860 So you can't be happy alone.

01:34:34.920 Besides, you shouldn't be striving to be happy anyways, because happy is a side effect, not an aim.

01:34:40.560 But even if it was an aim, which it isn't, there's no happiness alone.

01:34:47.240 I mean, what?

01:34:48.360 There's nothing happier than a friendless teenager.

01:34:52.060 I mean, who believes that?

01:34:53.760 No one breathing believes that. 1.00

01:34:56.680 That's the stupidest thing you could believe. 1.00

01:34:58.900 Like, teenagers are desperate to belong. 1.00

01:35:02.240 You know, and you can parody that and say, well, if your friends all jumped off a cliff, would you?

01:35:07.700 And, you know, there's limits to how much you should sacrifice your soul to be part of the group.

01:35:13.540 But by the same token, like what other people think of you and how they relate to you, not only does that matter, it should matter.

01:35:21.720 And so the whole progressive theory of the human being is it's flawed in a manner that makes its enactment produce nothing but resentful pathology and misery.

01:35:39.620 Let me let me let me ask you this.

01:35:42.280 I've been dying to ask you this.

01:35:44.280 I speak with a lot of young conservative women regularly.

01:35:48.140 And one of the and they are very aware of everything you've said.

01:35:52.100 They are they've got their eye on the biological clock in a way the previous generation did not.

01:35:57.920 They understand the risks of waiting too long to choose a partner.

01:36:01.180 All of that.

01:36:01.860 They do get it.

01:36:03.240 But a lot of them still, they want a career of their own.

01:36:07.080 They're they're just they're driven professionally in that way.

01:36:10.500 And what they ask me, Jordan, is should I just settle?

01:36:14.160 Should I just settle?

01:36:15.180 You know, I'm 29 now.

01:36:16.720 I have a career that I like.

01:36:18.640 I haven't met the right guy yet.

01:36:20.400 But there are guys who are interested in me.

01:36:22.600 So should I just settle now for somebody who I'm really not that into?

01:36:26.960 Well, the first thing I would ask is that who exactly who's settling in that equation?

01:36:34.360 Like, it's quite the narcissistic proclamation that it's clearly you who's settling, you know,

01:36:39.640 and that might even be more true if you're 29, because you're competing with a lot of 24 year olds by that point.

01:36:45.420 And they put a lot less biological pressure on a potential mate.

01:36:49.460 Like, look, when I was out touring three nights in a row, the same question came up because I do a Q&A at the end of my lectures.

01:36:56.960 And this is in the last round of tours.

01:37:00.220 And one of the questions was, well, how do I find the person that's right for me?

01:37:05.120 And I didn't answer it the first night.

01:37:08.000 There was something about the question I didn't like.

01:37:09.700 And then it came up two more nights in a row and was voted up by the audience.

01:37:14.060 And the third night, I thought, oh, I know why.

01:37:16.940 I tried stumbling through an answer and it didn't work.

01:37:19.720 And then the third night, I thought, oh, I know what the problem is here.

01:37:22.600 That's the wrong question.

01:37:25.100 Because the right question is, how do I make myself into the sort of person that's so attractive to other people that potential mates are lining up for me?

01:37:35.100 That's a way different question than how do I find the person that's right for me?

01:37:39.100 Like, first of all, who are you?

01:37:41.560 I like that.

01:37:42.020 And what's so special about you that what the, how do you know that the right person wouldn't take one look at you and run away screaming if they had any sense?

01:37:51.180 Like, seriously, you know, you're settling, are you?

01:37:54.280 You know, if you use that language, even the first thing you might ask yourself is, why do you start with such a high opinion of yourself and such a low opinion of the people who are pursuing you?

01:38:09.060 Now, look, I understand that it's necessary to be attracted to a potential partner, you know, and that women have the right and the duty to be picky. 1.00

01:38:18.020 Um, they should find a man who's going to be not a child and who's going to be very helpful to them in all ways, particularly when they have children, who's going to be a good father.

01:38:28.680 And so hooray to women for being picky. 1.00

01:38:31.080 But that's not the same thing as starting out narcissistic.

01:38:35.040 You know, we talked about Snow White.

01:38:37.460 Before she could find a prince, she had to learn to be of service to the dwarves.

01:38:41.240 Like, that's worth thinking about.

01:38:44.340 Now, you might think, well, why should we pay attention to a fairy tale?

01:38:47.260 It's like, well, how about because people remembered it for 15,000 years and that Disney just spent a quarter of a billion dollars trying to retell it and failed.

01:38:57.440 And so, and then with regards to the order of affairs in a woman's life, look, I calculated recently that even an attractive woman, like radically attractive woman, let's say, who often has her own problems, by the way, because she tends to scare men away, right? 0.74

01:39:17.040 A lucky woman has five potential partners in her life. 0.98

01:39:21.540 Five.

01:39:22.560 You get five chances.

01:39:24.180 That's it.

01:39:24.820 Now, think about this.

01:39:26.500 Let's just think that through, right?

01:39:27.920 Because it's a terrifying way to think.

01:39:30.380 So imagine that you're primarily looking, say, from the time you're 16 at the lowest end to, say, 30.

01:39:37.220 Like, because after that, it's starting to get harder because the clock is ticking so desperately.

01:39:43.080 One in three couples at 30 already have fertility problems, by the way, which is defined as difficulty conceiving within a year, even though the attempts are being made.

01:39:53.400 Okay, so let's say you've got 14 years, something like that.

01:39:57.240 Now, how long does it take to find someone and then figure out who they are, especially if they're strangers?

01:40:04.820 You know, before you're going to decide to marry someone, likely you're going to want to know them for a year, something like that.

01:40:11.840 And so that's five years right there with five people.

01:40:16.860 But that also assumes that you go from one relationship to another with no intervening space.

01:40:22.700 So you're not suffering too much, for example, when a potentially promising relationship collapses or you don't get sick or something doesn't waylay you in your professional career.

01:40:34.540 So imagine two years per relationship, that's 10 years for five, that's assuming that people want to be around you.

01:40:45.060 So I don't know if you're settling, it's, I get the picture, you don't want to lie to someone and tell them that you find them attractive in all possible ways when you don't.

01:40:55.320 But maybe you could start the bloody process with a little more humility.

01:41:00.880 You know, I like the way you started that.

01:41:02.760 What shouldn't the goal be to make yourself so attractive in, just in heart and soul, not to mention on the outside, that does require some effort, that they're lining up, that they're lining up there.

01:41:14.140 And if that's not happening, why?

01:41:15.620 Why is it?

01:41:16.360 You know, it's my favorite poem.

01:41:18.220 Um, um, you'll find the fault lies in you, right?

01:41:23.040 Make an examination.

01:41:24.060 You'll find the fault lies in you.

01:41:25.820 It's called yourself to blame.

01:41:27.560 And it's empowering.

01:41:28.980 It's not about self-flagellation.

01:41:30.460 It's about if there's something wrong in your life, you fix it.

01:41:34.180 And that especially starts with you, you, how you are and how you are in the world.

01:41:39.780 I wish we had another two hours, Jordan.

01:41:42.320 I loved talking to you.

01:41:43.780 Thank you so much for being here today.

01:41:45.440 Well, it's really nice to see you again.

01:41:46.840 And thank you very much for the opportunity to talk again.

01:41:50.580 I've been watching what you've been doing for, well, for a very long time.

01:41:54.260 And you seem to be very useful and, and very successful.

01:41:58.400 And what you're doing is very difficult and it seems very helpful.

01:42:02.120 So, you know, hooray for you.

01:42:04.820 And, uh, yeah, it was a pleasure talking to you today.

01:42:08.200 And back at you.

01:42:09.340 Okay.

01:42:09.760 All the best.

01:42:10.340 And tomorrow the fellas from Ruthless will be here. 0.72

01:42:13.960 Uh, we'll look forward to that.

01:42:16.840 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show.

01:42:19.880 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - March 26, 2025

Jordan Peterson on Pathological Masculinity, Alarming Political Gender Gap Among Young Voters, and Snow White ｜ Ep. 1035

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