The Megyn Kelly Show - Jordan Peterson on Radical Honesty, Raising Kids, and Getting Your House in Order ｜ Ep. 84

00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal

00:00:02.160 on a wool coat from Winners,

00:00:03.760 I started wondering,

00:00:05.440 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:00:08.560 Like that woman over there with the designer jeans. 1.00

00:00:11.260 Are those from Winners?

00:00:12.780 Ooh, or those beautiful gold earrings.

00:00:15.260 Did she pay full price?

00:00:16.600 Or that leather tote?

00:00:17.600 Or that cashmere sweater?

00:00:18.500 Or those knee-high boots?

00:00:20.300 That dress?

00:00:21.080 That jacket?

00:00:21.740 Those shoes?

00:00:22.780 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

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00:00:30.600 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:32.520 Your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:42.060 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.

00:00:43.760 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.

00:00:45.320 Today, Jordan Peterson.

00:00:48.700 The one and only.

00:00:50.920 I've really been looking forward to this interview.

00:00:53.800 I have never met him.

00:00:55.060 I've never spoken to him.

00:00:56.200 But I have seen so many videos.

00:00:58.740 I've read his books.

00:01:00.000 His massive book that was hugely, hugely popular, 12 Rules for Life, An Antidote to Chaos, was an international bestseller.

00:01:09.140 It's over 4 million sales.

00:01:11.200 The New York Times.

00:01:12.180 Let me put it to you this way.

00:01:13.020 The New York Times has called him the most influential public intellectual in the Western world right now.

00:01:20.480 And he is.

00:01:21.420 He's taken a lot of risks.

00:01:22.420 He's taken a lot of risks. 0.99

00:01:23.340 He's put himself out there to defend free speech and, of course, has taken a lot of crap because of it. 0.78

00:01:27.900 And I admire his courage and willingness to take the slings and arrows because they have come his way.

00:01:32.560 He's got a new book out, which we'll get into 12 more rules in a book called Beyond Order.

00:01:38.120 And he's got just a different way of thinking about the world.

00:01:40.820 And unlike most of us, he has spent his life thinking about the world, thinking about our problems, thinking about history.

00:01:46.760 And how does it affect what we're seeing now in the culture and the claims of the patriarchy?

00:01:51.760 And, you know, he's like a hero to a lot of young men in particular, because he's one guy who pushes back on some of these claims.

00:01:59.920 Like it's a massive patriarchal system that's been created to stifle anyone who's not a white male.

00:02:05.280 Well, you hear him talk in some of his lectures about how, well, lobsters have a hierarchical system and were descended from them ultimately.

00:02:12.620 And so, like, did the lobsters create it or was it like really the white men who got together at a roundtable and created things the way they are?

00:02:18.940 Anyway, my point is that Jordan Peterson has thought about all these issues and has deep thoughts on all of these issues.

00:02:26.000 And I really enjoyed talking to him.

00:02:28.660 We got into like a more personal side of him.

00:02:31.780 We got into some of the comments he's made on women, both alleged and real, because, of course, the press exaggerates what he says and take things out of context.

00:02:39.560 And we had some spicy back and forth, which was fun, too, all in good spirits.

00:02:45.060 But I think when you listen to Jordan, you'll learn and you might feel inspired to do better in your life and you might feel inspired to try harder and read more and think the way Jordan does, even if you agree or disagree with the things he says.

00:02:57.680 Anyway, I know you're going to enjoy the back and forth.

00:02:59.980 If I do say so myself, it's pretty compelling.

00:03:02.600 I got the chance to listen to the interview before we released it, and I just thought I'd give it like one ear just to make sure everything was cool and the sound was good.

00:03:10.720 Usually my team does it, but I was like, I'm going to make sure on this one.

00:03:14.140 And I couldn't pull my ears away.

00:03:16.620 And I hope you feel the same.

00:03:18.320 So we'll get to him in one second.

00:03:19.440 But first, this.

00:03:26.380 Hello, Megan.

00:03:27.440 Jordan Peterson.

00:03:28.460 What a pleasure.

00:03:29.620 I'm so excited to be talking to you.

00:03:31.100 Thank you.

00:03:32.260 Thank you for the invitation.

00:03:33.760 I have been neck deep in Jordan Peterson, YouTube videos, all of your website, your books.

00:03:42.220 And I have to say, it's been really illuminating.

00:03:46.180 And I'm just coming off of a two week vacation with my family.

00:03:49.300 And I just thought to myself, what a small person I am.

00:03:52.340 I've literally been sitting around thinking, how can I get the self-tanner to last more than five days?

00:03:58.160 And you've been actually trying to figure out the meaning of life.

00:04:03.600 Well, sometimes the meaning of life is whether or not you can get your tanner to work.

00:04:08.060 And when things are going well enough so that that's a concern, that's definitely a time to be grateful for things.

00:04:13.800 Well said.

00:04:15.060 You know, it's funny.

00:04:16.320 My husband and I went out to dinner, just the two of us, one night on our vacation.

00:04:20.760 And all the other nights we had our kids. 0.93

00:04:23.400 And my little guy, Thatcher, who's seven, sent me the most pathetic, sweet little voicemails while I was out. 0.92

00:04:28.960 And it was all about how he really needed some help finding his Kit Kat. 0.92

00:04:33.520 Mommy, I can't find my Kit Kat.

00:04:35.660 You said I could have it.

00:04:36.560 It's been two days.

00:04:37.060 It was the sweetest thing.

00:04:38.680 And I thought, just what you said, if this is my kid's biggest problem, I'm doing a good job and he's a happy boy.

00:04:45.340 And, you know, we sort of have it made.

00:04:47.160 But I did look around while reading your book at some other families that were at the beach.

00:04:53.620 We were in the Bahamas and saw some evidence of the thing you point out in your book, which is, and you've said in your lectures, not everybody really enjoys their children.

00:05:04.120 And it's okay to admit that.

00:05:07.480 And it's okay to admit a lot of negative feelings that you may be having about your spouse, about your life, about yourself.

00:05:13.180 And it's much better than the alternative of repression.

00:05:16.280 Well, it's failure to unpack, you know, and with your kids, if they're annoying you or you're not taking pleasure in them, it's worth noting that and not pretending that it's the opposite and then trying to figure out what to do about it.

00:05:32.040 And that's difficult and horrible, but it's a lot better than the alternative, which is endless misery and then alienation.

00:05:40.080 I mean, if you're, you know, families can have unfortunate circumstances and no amount of striving will pull them out of it.

00:05:47.560 But generally speaking, if you're not enjoying your kids, well, something needs to change and can be changed.

00:05:55.660 But first of all, you have to admit it.

00:05:58.260 How do you figure out, you know, I don't know.

00:06:03.840 I looked at the news while I was gone, you know, and it was the darkest of the dark, right?

00:06:08.120 We had more than one, two mass shootings while I was away and it keeps happening. 0.50

00:06:17.140 You know, we had the massage parlor situation.

00:06:19.860 We had the Colorado supermarket.

00:06:21.980 And when I see this from afar, what I see is everybody wants to figure out what went wrong.

00:06:27.840 Like, what's wrong?

00:06:29.340 You know, like, is this kid crazy? 0.96

00:06:30.520 Was this kid raised by bad parents? 0.95

00:06:32.220 Is it a Columbine situation where they just hate the world? 0.95

00:06:35.660 Is it a white supremacist? 0.97

00:06:36.980 Is it somebody who hates Asians? 0.99

00:06:38.620 Is it about the guns? 0.89

00:06:39.600 We got to ban the guns.

00:06:41.160 And having covered so many of these, Jordan, my takeaway is basically always that we search so hard for understanding, for a reason, because we want to tell ourselves that we can prevent the next one.

00:06:53.740 You know, if we can find the reason, we can prevent the next one.

00:06:57.160 But the thing is, we never do or can prevent the next one.

00:07:02.160 Well, not of events like that.

00:07:03.620 Part of the reason that I'm motivated to do what I've been doing is to help people broadly avoid ending up in the kind of horrible pit where they might be motivated to do such things.

00:07:15.340 So you can do something about the causes of such events on a general scale.

00:07:21.580 But when you're dealing with a nation of 300 million people and a planet of 7 billion people, there are going to be random, essentially rare, psychopathological events.

00:07:30.880 And the idea that you can predict them and somehow bring them under control in any specific sense is just nonsensical.

00:07:38.800 First of all, even though they're far more common than anyone would like, they're still unbelievably rare.

00:07:44.480 So it's very difficult to do anything about statistically improbable events.

00:07:50.100 But what does it mean?

00:07:51.320 Because you talk in your new book now, Beyond Order, about paying attention above all, even to what is monstrous and malevolent.

00:07:59.440 What does that mean?

00:08:00.960 Because I look at those acts and I'm thinking, that's what those are.

00:08:04.700 But is that what you're talking about?

00:08:07.940 Yes, definitely.

00:08:09.880 Yes.

00:08:11.680 Well, if you're trying to straighten up the world, I suppose, if you're concerned about the dismal state of the world, my estimation, it's safest in some sense to work on your own trouble and to note your own contributions to the negative end of things.

00:08:29.360 And that does mean allowing yourself to look at what's dark in your own psyche, to notice when you're envious, to notice when you're jealous, to notice when your anger gets out of control, to notice when you're lying about who you like and who you don't like,

00:08:45.860 or when you're trying to put yourself up on a pedestal for some reason, and to note your moral inadequacies in that sense, and to pay attention to your conscience.

00:08:55.900 All of this is extremely important, and it's the right focus as far as I'm concerned, as opposed to paying attention to the more general evil in the world, at least to begin with.

00:09:05.900 Once you have your house in order, well, maybe you can start solving wider-scale problems if you have the ability and the will, but until then, it's better to confront the darkness within, as far as I'm concerned.

00:09:20.680 That straightens up your own life, and that's of inestimable value to everyone around you.

00:09:26.400 And you don't do any harm in that, right?

00:09:29.080 I mean, that's the thing, is you're experimenting in your own domain at that point.

00:09:33.060 The other thing, too, is that if you don't confront malevolence, if you don't understand it, then you're completely, you lay yourself completely open to it.

00:09:42.800 If you confuse your naivety with goodness, and people often do that, you know, I wouldn't harm anyone is generally shorthand for I couldn't if I wanted to, which isn't an indicator of strength.

00:09:57.860 It's an indicator of lack of ability.

00:09:59.760 If you have no theory of malevolence and no familiarity with it, you're an easy target.

00:10:07.880 You're a pushover.

00:10:09.300 You can't defend yourself.

00:10:10.660 And that means that people who are like that, or forces that have that nature, you have no defense against them.

00:10:18.820 And there's nothing moral about that.

00:10:20.500 You know, I remember 20 years ago, or thereabouts, when the terrible genocidal processes were seeping through what was once Yugoslavia, the foreign minister in Canada said, Lloyd Axworthy was his name.

00:10:38.900 He was a pretty well-seasoned politician.

00:10:42.800 He said he just didn't have the imagination for that kind of evil.

00:10:45.940 And I thought, well, what the hell are you doing being foreign minister then?

00:10:52.740 I presume he was familiar with the Holocaust and with what happened in the Soviet Union and Mao's China and Cambodia, etc., etc.

00:11:01.360 How would you dare be foreign minister and not have the imagination for that kind of evil?

00:11:06.560 So what happens when you meet someone like that?

00:11:09.120 Well, then they're going to walk all over you. 1.00

00:11:10.900 And he thought that was, I'm so moral, I couldn't imagine that.

00:11:14.160 Like, no, you're so timid that you won't go there.

00:11:18.180 That's not the same thing at all.

00:11:20.820 Just study history.

00:11:21.920 Well, history, and just to pay attention to what's going on around you in your own family, often terrible things happen in families with great frequency.

00:11:33.440 So, you know, we started this conversation with your observations about the beach and seeing people who don't enjoy their children.

00:11:39.520 I mean, if you see a family where the relationships between the children and the adults are seriously disturbed,

00:11:45.280 you don't have to pay attention for very long until you see some really dark things.

00:11:50.840 I mean, it's very dark.

00:11:51.920 It's very dark to not love your child.

00:11:55.740 You know, and you may have all the reasons in the world, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something terrible going on there.

00:12:00.800 Deeply terrible.

00:12:01.620 I've seen that sort of thing in my clinical practice over and over and over.

00:12:04.960 Kids who had no words of encouragement from their parents, in fact, were punished continually every time they did anything good.

00:12:12.720 What?

00:12:13.780 Why?

00:12:14.180 Well, it happened all the time.

00:12:15.340 Well, let's say that you don't want your children to leave because all the meaning in your life is a consequence of being a necessary primary caregiver.

00:12:25.840 So that every time you see your children do anything that moves them towards independence, it's a threat to your own security.

00:12:33.200 So what you do through blindness is fail to attend or punish every time the child does something that would indicate competence.

00:12:42.060 Oh, wow.

00:12:44.140 Now that's twisted.

00:12:45.000 It happens all the time.

00:12:46.880 It does?

00:12:47.380 That's the dark.

00:12:48.440 Yes, it happens all the time.

00:12:50.880 I've never seen...

00:12:52.020 I feel like I have a pretty wide web of friends and mothers and so on.

00:12:56.260 And we all have, you know, different things that we complain about or brag about with respect to our children.

00:13:01.260 But being so in need of their constant presence that you ruin their maturation and independence, gosh, that's, I mean, that's pathological.

00:13:11.620 Well, that's how maturation and independence get ruined.

00:13:14.480 And it's not like it's uncommon.

00:13:16.800 Really?

00:13:17.700 No, it happens all the time.

00:13:19.080 And, you know, the other thing that you see in families very frequently is that the disciplinary strategies are inefficient and ineffective.

00:13:26.720 And so the children act out in ways that won't make them acceptable to other people, which is really the hallmark of proper behavior for children, or the measure of proper behavior in children.

00:13:40.340 Because you want your children to be desirable to other people, but it's the best gift you can possibly give them.

00:13:44.780 And so let's say your children act in ways that, you know, shed a dim light on your abilities as a parent or interfere with your own activities.

00:13:56.680 The children are too demanding, so you never have any time for yourself or any time for your husband or wife.

00:14:02.800 And they misbehave and you're embarrassed about that and angry.

00:14:05.320 And then instead of doing something about it, instead of noting that, you know, your child will run up to you at one point with something they've accomplished, like a drawing that they spent a lot of time on or, you know, some manifestation of a special talent.

00:14:18.500 And because you're annoyed at them chronically, you'll just fail to attend to it properly.

00:14:23.540 And so you punish them for their virtue, and that's revenge against them for acting in an undisciplined manner.

00:14:32.380 And that happens all the time.

00:14:34.320 I know you have one of your one of your rules is to basically raise children who you want to be around.

00:14:42.800 Don't don't raise children who you don't want to be with.

00:14:44.900 And I love that because I just I mean, instinctively, we've been living that just like, I think it's just a matter of not having too much time on our hands and being somewhat selfish.

00:14:53.400 It's like, I don't want to be around you when you're like that.

00:14:55.940 And I got to tell you, as your mother, nobody else is going to want to be around you when you're like that either.

00:14:59.260 But so either stop doing that, or we're gonna have a problem because you you are in this family.

00:15:04.360 And if you want to stay here, right, so it's and they get that like, they can totally get that that it's like a bargain.

00:15:10.240 I'll let you go this far, but I won't let you go that far.

00:15:13.360 It's really not that hard to sort of reason with them about bad behavior.

00:15:16.540 You don't have to have a complete level 10 meltdown all the time.

00:15:21.100 You have no well, you but you never have to have a level 10 meltdown if you're disciplinary, disciplinary strategies are effective.

00:15:27.500 No, you you hear now and then of mothers and fathers, of course, too.

00:15:32.040 But mothers doing terrible things to their children, you know, incomprehensibly terrible things.

00:15:36.580 And you think, well, how can that happen?

00:15:38.440 And generally, what it is, is that the parent and has very ineffective disciplinary strategies and a very underdeveloped disciplinary philosophy and lets the child get away with blue murder and is extraordinarily angry about it because they're being tortured constantly by their child.

00:15:56.980 And then one day, you know, the child goes too far and maybe mom has just lost her job or broke up with her boyfriend or is hung over and she just has had it and snaps and then, you know, all hell breaks loose and all the punishment that should have been meted out all the discipline that should have been meted out over two years is compressed into a single episode and the result is catastrophic.

00:16:19.100 And so and because you can't if you're an adult and you're constantly being what dominated by your two year old, your three year old, there's not a possibility that that's not going to enrage you at some level.

00:16:35.960 So what do you do with all that rage?

00:16:38.660 It's not going to just vanish.

00:16:43.360 It's nurtured and you have to notice that think, well, I can actually dislike my child.

00:16:47.360 Well, what kind of person am I?

00:16:49.460 Well, that is the kind of person you are is exactly that and you should be.

00:16:53.640 Now, maybe you're unreasonable and, you know, your your criteria for being upset aren't appropriate, but that hopefully you have a partner, some other people you can talk to to help you check your own pathology so you don't mistreat your children or use counterproductive disciplinary strategies.

00:17:12.220 But, you know, and I see parents all the time who are afraid to discipline their children.

00:17:18.000 They don't even like the idea of discipline, even though they think of discipline as punishment and all discipline equals punishment.

00:17:25.400 Any constraint on the child is an impediment to their creative ability, et cetera, et cetera. 0.97

00:17:29.640 And that's all rubbish.

00:17:31.100 And children without discipline are often terrorized, terror in terror because they have no limits. 0.96

00:17:37.380 And they can't tolerate that because they're not competent.

00:17:40.760 So no limits faces them with a terrible with the terrible reality that they're in charge and they have no idea what to do.

00:17:50.820 Well, you're talking about letting things build up.

00:17:52.880 And I know you feel the same way about relationships. 0.58

00:17:56.040 There's there's something in the book rule three, which is don't hide unwanted things in the fog saying have the damn fight that unpleasant as it might be in the moment with your spouse.

00:18:08.480 It's one less straw on the camel's back.

00:18:11.200 And I do think there are a lot of people out there, maybe especially during the covid quarantine, who just choose not to have the fight because they want they'd rather keep the peace.

00:18:21.360 And you're trying to tell people, no, they'd rather they'd rather pretend that the peace is there than work for it.

00:18:28.940 That's that's the reality of it.

00:18:30.920 I mean, some it's often, too, because people don't know how to negotiate.

00:18:34.420 They're just not taught how to negotiate.

00:18:36.760 We're very bad at teaching.

00:18:38.260 And our society is very bad at teaching negotiating skills.

00:18:42.520 And it's really too bad.

00:18:44.280 But people it's very difficult to establish peace in a household, true peace.

00:18:50.160 And what's substituted for that often is, well, we don't fight.

00:18:54.380 We never fight.

00:18:55.280 Well, then you never talk about anything important or one of you is rolling over.

00:18:59.940 One of you is pretending or both of you are because two people can can't live together and not disagree because they're not the same person.

00:19:08.260 Plus, things are really complicated.

00:19:10.300 Life is really complicated.

00:19:11.480 And if you're not disagreeing about certain things, you're actually not thinking about them.

00:19:15.480 You should disagree about your finances because how to handle your finances mutually is a really difficult problem.

00:19:22.600 And so if you're not disagreeing about it, that means you're actually not discussing it.

00:19:27.900 You're not you're not walking through the full range of options.

00:19:31.140 I mean, thought itself is a dialectical process.

00:19:33.740 Right.

00:19:34.080 It's a it's a form of of of disagree internal disagreement and couples can engage in mutual thinking by taking opposing positions.

00:19:43.740 And then you think it through.

00:19:45.320 And because the question of how to arrange your household finances, maybe one of you works at a salary job in the other stays at home and takes care of the children or something like that.

00:19:54.480 Well, how do you divide the money?

00:19:57.300 Well, how can you it's not like you're going to magically come up with a solution to that that both people instantly agree on.

00:20:03.520 It's a really complicated problem.

00:20:05.980 It's it's it's attached to the problem of how you value domestic labor, how it should be valued.

00:20:12.180 And our whole society hasn't really figured that out.

00:20:14.400 So I just think you've got you've got some good points about a long time ago.

00:20:23.580 I heard a guy who was he was a proponent of what he called radical honesty.

00:20:27.140 And his whole point was, you got to say the thing, just got to say the thing that's on your mind, even if you'd rather filter it, you'd rather not, quote, hurt the other person.

00:20:36.540 And but ultimately, the radical honesty program, if not, if not, you know, you're not intending to be hurtful.

00:20:43.460 You're just intending to be honest.

00:20:45.240 And it might have the effect of being hurtful short term, but long term, it's going to bring you more intimacy.

00:20:50.960 And I think I wouldn't say I'm on the totally radical honesty program, but but I think that sort of general approach to understand that it's not it's not mean to say how you feel just because it might wind up hurting the other person's feelings.

00:21:04.540 It's actually it's almost a compliment to them.

00:21:07.320 It's it's honoring your marriage.

00:21:09.980 Well, it might be mean.

00:21:12.120 So I would say I am a proponent of radical honesty, but but but virtually no morality is complicated enough to require virtue across multiple dimensions simultaneously.

00:21:24.540 So if you're going to tell the truth within the relationship, you could use the truth as a weapon.

00:21:30.400 Now, you might regard that as a form of untruth if the truth is weaponized.

00:21:34.540 And that's actually true.

00:21:35.600 But it's it's a complex distinction.

00:21:37.960 But in order to tell the truth within a relationship, there are certain preconditions that have to be met.

00:21:44.060 No, you have to have vowed to trust each other and both honor that vow and decided that that's actually the case.

00:21:52.700 You both have to be honestly working towards what's best for each of you and the relationship.

00:21:59.700 So you have to be oriented.

00:22:03.000 Towards a positive outcome for the relationship, then you have to have some humility, because let's say I tell you what's on my mind.

00:22:09.800 It's like, look, we went to this.

00:22:11.720 So I'm speaking to you as if you're my wife.

00:22:13.680 We went to this party yesterday, you know, and I saw you sitting in the corner with Mark.

00:22:18.160 And, you know, you were a little too close and I wasn't exactly sure I liked what was going on. 0.92

00:22:23.940 But, you know, maybe I'm jealous and stupid and I'm completely off base with my characterization. 0.72

00:22:31.740 And if so, I'd really like to clear that up. 0.93

00:22:34.180 And so I'd like to hear your interpretation.

00:22:37.280 And, like, that's not false. 0.99

00:22:39.200 It's like, well, maybe you were flirting and maybe I'm a jealous idiot or maybe a little bit of both. 0.96

00:22:45.680 But wouldn't it be good if we could sort it through so we both do? 0.97

00:22:49.380 But if you're going to do that, if you're going to throw forward a feeling-based accusation,

00:22:54.180 which can obviously be damaging to the other person, you have to accompany that with the willingness to assume that your fault might be as great in the error you're making with the accusation as the fault that you're pointing out.

00:23:12.920 And that's another thing that stops people from being radically honest.

00:23:16.000 It's like, well, I feel this way.

00:23:17.580 But it doesn't mean I'm right.

00:23:19.220 It might mean that I'm so warped that I'm feeling something completely inaccurate.

00:23:23.260 And so by throwing that out at you, I'm going to have to look at me to see what makes me so bent.

00:23:30.600 So all of that stops you, if you're at least bit alert, from using the truth as a weapon.

00:23:38.060 Because it certainly will absolutely backfire on you if it's actually the truth.

00:23:43.580 Well, I love it because you've written a lot about how, and you have to take those risks,

00:23:47.880 those confession risks of what your feelings are, no matter how petty you may think they are in your head,

00:23:53.260 and it requires some courage to do so because you know at some level they might be petty,

00:23:59.400 they might make you look bad, they might not be well-founded, but it will be a relief to you to discuss them if you approach it the right way.

00:24:07.300 And it will be potentially, you know, good for your relationship.

00:24:11.400 And I'm telling you, I can relate to this so much.

00:24:13.800 And I've had, Doug and I have a great marriage, and I think one of the reasons we have a great marriage is because we do say this stuff.

00:24:20.960 We were skiing a couple years ago, and I got mad at him because I was convinced when we got to the flat light hills,

00:24:26.680 he was making me go first because he wanted somebody to cut the trail who he could keep an eye on because it was very difficult to see.

00:24:34.740 It's absurd. This is, of course, not what he was doing, but it was in my head.

00:24:38.780 I was getting progressively ticked off.

00:24:40.900 It just seemed to me every time we got to a flat light trail, he was like, do you want to lead?

00:24:44.600 And finally I told him, I'm like, I'm mad.

00:24:47.500 I'm like, you're making me go first on the flat light trails because you need somebody.

00:24:51.040 And he was like, what are you talking about?

00:24:53.440 Absolutely not, honey.

00:24:54.720 And then he had an explanation for what was going on, and we both wound up laughing about it.

00:24:58.400 I was so glad I said it, and now it's just like an ongoing joke between us, but it is hard to show how petty we can sometimes be.

00:25:07.960 Yeah, well, the only thing that can convince you to show that is some consideration of how terrible it would be if you stayed that petty for the next 40 years.

00:25:19.120 And so I don't know if it's so much courage that is what pushes you forward to that kind of admission as terror of the right thing.

00:25:28.960 It's like, well, I could either look petty now or be petty for four decades.

00:25:33.200 So, well, anyone with any sense would, well, because problems don't go away of their own accord, generally speaking.

00:25:38.860 Like if you have a habit of some sort, it just doesn't vanish.

00:25:42.780 You have to modify it.

00:25:44.300 And if it doesn't vanish, you just bring those things forward endlessly.

00:25:47.760 And so people can be having the same problems with their siblings that they had when they were 12, when they're 60.

00:25:54.200 And that happens all the time, too.

00:25:56.280 It's the norm more than the exception.

00:25:59.080 I would say that might be pessimistic, but I don't think so.

00:26:03.140 I've seen it, at least in some aspects, I've seen it very commonly.

00:26:07.860 Up next, getting personal with Jordan about his own marriage and how that's going.

00:26:14.780 So stay tuned for that.

00:26:16.100 But first this.

00:26:17.760 It seems to me from where I sit that you have a good marriage.

00:26:24.680 You've been married to Tammy for a long time.

00:26:27.000 I know, obviously, you both have had hellish couple of years physically and health-wise.

00:26:32.080 But she's gotten through her cancer, which you write about in the book.

00:26:36.240 And you're on your way toward mending.

00:26:39.380 But do you practice what you preach?

00:26:42.300 And do you feel like you and she have what you'd call a happy marriage?

00:26:46.300 I do my best to practice what I preach, although I would say that I include myself conceptually in the audience that I'm talking to.

00:26:55.620 I'm not presuming.

00:26:57.740 Like the rules that I lay out, and they could have been other rules because there's many valid principles that you can use to guide your life.

00:27:05.020 They're not coming down from on high, you know, for me, essentially, there are things that I strive towards.

00:27:12.620 And the chapters are explorations of that striving.

00:27:16.840 And I think that's part of why I get away with it, so to speak.

00:27:20.360 Because why should someone who's handing down rules be popular, be listened to?

00:27:27.980 It's a pretty presumptuous thing to do, or it can be.

00:27:30.960 So how can you approach that without being necessarily hypocritical or self-righteous or any of those things?

00:27:39.240 You know, perhaps I'm sure a certain number of people would argue that I am exactly all those things.

00:27:44.780 But the public response doesn't seem to indicate that that's widespread feeling, quite the contrary.

00:27:52.460 But I think the reason for that is that I know these things are very difficult to attain.

00:27:57.560 They're ideals, right?

00:27:58.720 To do them perfectly, that's an ideal, and we all fall short of the ideal constantly.

00:28:02.660 But that doesn't mean we can't strive to do it.

00:28:05.900 And Tammy and I both decided when we got married that we were going to tell each other the truth.

00:28:10.520 And that we provided by that to the degree that both of us were capable of doing that.

00:28:18.020 So at least if it wasn't 100% honesty, it was an honest attempt on both people's parts.

00:28:25.520 And that continues, and that's got us through some very hard times so far.

00:28:30.140 And God willing, that will continue.

00:28:33.440 But it's a real relief to have someone to talk to.

00:28:37.000 I mean, because now and then you find that you're in trouble.

00:28:40.000 And you need to be able to say that you're in trouble.

00:28:43.400 And you need, because you're in trouble, and if you're in trouble, you don't know what to do about it.

00:28:47.700 Because otherwise you wouldn't be in trouble.

00:28:49.380 You would have avoided it or fixed it.

00:28:51.160 And if you don't have a history of being able to tell your partner everything, essentially,

00:28:58.480 then you're alone when you most need someone.

00:29:02.660 And that's exactly when it's so good to be married.

00:29:05.860 I mean, that's part of the strength of a marriage is that there isn't just one of you.

00:29:10.060 There's two of you.

00:29:11.720 And that's better.

00:29:13.940 It makes you more resilient and robust, well, and less lonesome and all sorts of other things as well.

00:29:20.060 Often you go to social events, familial events, but social events where there's discomfort.

00:29:27.880 There's unspoken discomfort characterizing the gathering.

00:29:30.800 People are pretending to get along, but there's unbelievable tension just under the surface.

00:29:34.700 That's why Christmas and events like that are often so difficult for people.

00:29:39.960 You know, everyone's walking on eggshells and smiling at the same time.

00:29:43.240 And it's really, really stressful to live like that.

00:29:46.580 And it's way better to have the fight sporadically, sort things out so that now and then you can actually have some genuine peace.

00:29:53.400 Because, you know, there might come a time when you really need it.

00:29:58.100 I know.

00:29:59.000 Well, you've been you've been through it.

00:30:01.560 I mean, how she probably just thought you becoming famous was going to be the most difficult thing you guys are going to go through together.

00:30:07.280 And then for some reason, I don't know.

00:30:10.460 You tell me what it was.

00:30:11.700 But the universe unleashed some personal and medical hell on you, too.

00:30:15.960 You're still standing.

00:30:17.620 I don't know.

00:30:18.120 What do you think about that?

00:30:19.120 There is a saying like the universe did this or the universe did that.

00:30:22.600 Do you believe the universe somehow brought this upon you?

00:30:25.120 Do you believe you bring trauma, physical health otherwise upon yourself in some way?

00:30:30.480 Well, the degree to which you're responsible for what happens to you is always questionable.

00:30:36.560 I mean, you certainly can't say in any realistic sense that people are finally 100 percent responsible or at fault for everything that happens to them.

00:30:48.240 Because you'd have to say that, you know, it's everyone's moral inadequacies that make up their mortality.

00:30:55.860 Everyone's died.

00:30:56.800 And I suppose in some abstract sense, maybe some ultimate religious sense, you could say, well, that's because we fall short of the glory of God.

00:31:06.440 And perhaps that's true.

00:31:07.820 But in any realistic human sense, we're all vulnerable to fate and accident.

00:31:15.740 And you always have to factor that in.

00:31:19.320 Because, you know, otherwise, every time you get sick, you have cancer, let's say, or something like that, or a family member does.

00:31:25.720 Because not only are they sick, but they have to presume that if they weren't morally at fault, this wouldn't have happened.

00:31:33.440 It's like, well, look, if you act immorally, virtually by definition, the probability that bad things are going to happen to you is much increased.

00:31:42.880 But that doesn't mean that every time something bad happens to you, there's a moral fault lying underneath it.

00:31:49.540 So, and I don't see that that's disputable.

00:31:56.160 Because we're fragile, we're susceptible to earthquakes, you know, lightning bolts, acts of God.

00:32:05.820 And it's worthwhile looking at the situation and trying to discern moral culpability. 0.99

00:32:14.600 Because maybe if you did something stupid and it made you vulnerable, you'll learn not to do it again. 0.99

00:32:21.200 But, you know, you don't want to take that too far. 0.99

00:32:24.440 Yeah, well, I look at you and I see somebody whose life has changed so dramatically since you first came out with that video, refusing.

00:32:35.480 Well, you were objecting.

00:32:37.400 This was the big thing about you.

00:32:39.000 It's funny because a lot of people brought your story to me and said, oh, yeah, you should talk to this guy. 0.87

00:32:44.440 And so many times, Jordan, people have been like, oh, it'd be great to see you're going to kill this guy. 0.68

00:32:48.300 You're going to battle him on women's issues. 1.00

00:32:50.240 And then I started actually reading what you were writing.

00:32:52.620 I'm like, oh, but I agree with a lot of, I don't, I'm not looking to do battle with him.

00:32:57.760 I actually think he's got a lot of great points because once you actually read what you've said, you've been grossly misrepresented by a lot of people who write about you because you're not some hardcore, I don't know, woke, cancel culture, identity politics activist.

00:33:11.860 So you first sort of came to national or international because you're Canadian prominence, I think.

00:33:16.880 Like, you know, you taught everywhere, Harvard and Toronto and you were very respected intellectual.

00:33:22.560 But but fame didn't really come until you took a stance on the Canadian law, law.

00:33:29.940 They were going to outlaw and did write anybody from from refusing to say somebody's chosen pronouns.

00:33:36.400 Like, yes, there's a Canadian man in jail right now because of that.

00:33:42.760 And it happened exactly the way I thought it was.

00:33:44.680 He he was jailed for contempt of court.

00:33:47.960 But that was the pathway that that yes, that was the pathway to jail that I saw emerging as a consequence of this bill.

00:33:54.560 And people said, well, I was exaggerating the danger.

00:33:57.120 And I thought, no, it's a law.

00:33:58.940 You break the law and you continue to break it.

00:34:02.260 Then then then mechanisms kick in and eventually the punishment is forced.

00:34:08.440 That's how law works.

00:34:10.720 And so that is how it works.

00:34:13.700 And, you know, I was I was unhappy with the law because I believe that it was an unwarranted intrusion by the government into the domain of free speech.

00:34:23.400 And I do believe that and certainly I believe that in the United States, that law couldn't have held.

00:34:30.140 And there was a challenge here recently.

00:34:32.440 A sixth court of appeal in Kansas, I think, indicating that those sorts of provisions are probably illegal even as workplace guidelines.

00:34:41.100 In any case, I thought that the government had overstepped its boundaries.

00:34:46.580 And recently I realized also that I was upset that about the theory of identity that constituted the core element, one of the core elements of the bill.

00:34:56.700 And so, yeah, that's what that's what initiated all of this.

00:35:02.060 But in what year was that?

00:35:04.640 2016.

00:35:05.840 And in the fall.

00:35:07.800 So you decide.

00:35:08.620 But there was another element to that, too, because what happened was, well, that accounted for the first 15 minutes or the first week of public attention, let's say.

00:35:19.520 But this has been going on like I've been at the center of public attention for almost five years now.

00:35:25.600 And part of the reason for that is that even from the beginning, people went to my website, to YouTube, actually, because of the news reports.

00:35:35.800 But I already had 200 hours of videos up at that point.

00:35:39.880 And so it was that fact that.

00:35:43.480 At least in part.

00:35:45.720 Made this continue.

00:35:47.080 Because it turned out that I was talking about something that, well, other people weren't talking about and still aren't talking about.

00:35:56.160 But starting to.

00:35:57.520 But I mean, I think the thing about you is you have the intellectual goods to back up the things you're saying.

00:36:02.380 You've got really deeply thought out positions on these issues and are looking for conversation.

00:36:09.080 You're looking for discussion.

00:36:10.360 And what could be more laudable?

00:36:12.920 But of course, as you know, the other side in these identity issues are they're not looking for discussion.

00:36:18.080 They're looking to stifle discussion.

00:36:20.060 And as this Canadian dad just found out sitting in a jail cell because he doesn't he won't call his biological daughter a boy.

00:36:27.720 And he's objecting to her getting testosterone.

00:36:30.360 And the judge has actually declared that the parents must affirm the gender switch or they will be implicated in a criminal offense.

00:36:38.560 Oh, there's no doubt about that.

00:36:39.700 I mean, he's in jail for complex reasons.

00:36:41.660 He was also forbidden to speak to the press and continue to.

00:36:45.700 There's a variety of reasons that he actually ended up in jail.

00:36:48.160 But it doesn't in some sense, it doesn't matter.

00:36:52.800 It's smoke and mirrors in some sense, because the point is, is that he is in jail for discussing the issues that I thought people might end up in jail for discussing.

00:37:01.180 And this trans issue, I mean, as a clinician, I just can't help but see that the proper and moral way forward is the actuarial way forward.

00:37:14.900 And the data that existed before all the politically correct discussion around this topic emerged was that about 85% of children with gender dysphoria accepted their biological reality by the time they were 18.

00:37:29.640 And so the prudent thing to do, which is what you should do if you're a physician or a psychologist, a clinician, prudent thing to do is say, hold off.

00:37:39.980 But that's not what's written into the law now.

00:37:42.520 And the laws are getting ever more restrictive in that regard.

00:37:45.720 And so now it's now it's the treatment of choice from the legal perspective is transition if the child demands it.

00:37:55.560 And no one is allowed, including medical professionals, allowed to question that in a manner that might be regarded as interfering.

00:38:04.680 And God only knows when the discussion of an issue like that becomes interfering.

00:38:09.660 I can tell you as a practicing clinician, I would be unbelievably loath to have now to have a discussion with someone who has gender dysphoria about any of their plans under any circumstances whatsoever. 0.99

00:38:23.640 Because the probability that I would misstep in some manner and be investigated and convicted by the college is so likely that the risk is unacceptable.

00:38:39.600 And like I say that, I say that as someone perfectly willing to take risks, if I believe that they're in my client's best interest.

00:38:50.240 Now, I'm not a child psychologist, so this particular issue isn't going to affect me.

00:38:54.740 But I've had enough dealings with the colleges that regulate clinical practice to be extraordinarily leery of their reach.

00:39:03.980 That's crazy.

00:39:05.700 I mean, that's just crazy now that we've come to that point.

00:39:08.660 What it means is these kids who are having confusion around their identity will never be able to talk to someone who doesn't have an ax to grind.

00:39:22.020 Yeah, that'll help them flesh it out.

00:39:23.440 So actual discussion of it is, right, exactly.

00:39:25.640 And that sort of thing has to be fleshed out in great detail.

00:39:28.740 I had a, yeah, yeah, it has to be fleshed out in great detail.

00:39:32.260 And those conversations are unbelievably complicated.

00:39:34.880 And they wander into territory that the current legal structure makes absolutely, the risk absolutely unacceptable for anyone who knows the law.

00:39:47.780 The best thing to do would be just to not do it.

00:39:50.960 You know, there have been, I know, I know you know who Abigail Schreier is and she's taken on this issue along with them.

00:39:56.580 I interviewed her about a week ago.

00:39:58.540 Oh yeah, that's right, on your podcast.

00:39:59.880 So she's out there, she's written her book.

00:40:02.500 Debra So has written her book and they're trying to call attention to this issue.

00:40:05.320 But it's so much deeper than just the trans thing, as you know.

00:40:09.460 And Abigail's talked about this, but others have too.

00:40:12.160 The need for identity, the need to sort of be in a protected group.

00:40:20.040 And this goes to the heart of one of your messages of the book, which is the meaning of life isn't found there.

00:40:28.200 If you're looking for meaning, which all of us presumably are, you're not going to find it there.

00:40:35.060 You're not going to find it by tearing down structures, cultural institutions, and blaming society at large for your woes.

00:40:42.780 You got to start with yourself.

00:40:45.280 Debra So it's safer, morally, you know, because at least you pay for your own mistakes then.

00:40:53.880 And that's the thing, if you're going to do moral experimentation, well, you should be responsible for your failures.

00:41:01.620 And if you're attempting to clean up your own mess, then you do it badly.

00:41:07.600 You're the one that suffers and learns for that.

00:41:10.960 You know, I mean, we do find identity.

00:41:12.920 We do find meaning in our group identity.

00:41:14.660 That's a valid source of meaning.

00:41:16.540 It's certainly not the only source of meaning.

00:41:18.480 And it's not the primary source, not the final analysis.

00:41:23.460 And the theories of identity that underlie identity politics aren't, what would you say, sophisticated or comprehensive enough to provide people with a guide through life, which is really what your identity, that's what you want.

00:41:41.140 You want an identity that you can act out functionally in society.

00:41:46.640 And that can't just be your sexual identity, your gender identity, any of that, because it's just not enough. 0.91

00:41:54.920 No one else knows how to play the game, which is a big problem when you're surrounded by people.

00:42:00.360 You know, you say, well, I want you to, I want, I'm an exception.

00:42:05.060 I want you to treat me the way I want to be treated.

00:42:07.120 It's like, well, if you're an exception, I have no idea how to treat you by definition.

00:42:12.940 Are you going to inform me every time I make a mistake?

00:42:15.160 It's like, why am I going to be around you?

00:42:16.760 Why would I want to be around you?

00:42:18.220 That's just endless trouble.

00:42:20.960 I mean, most of the reason that any of us can be tolerated by others is that most of the time we act predictably.

00:42:29.860 We have very little ability to handle people who don't act predictably.

00:42:33.760 Virtually none.

00:42:35.480 It's too frightening, off-putting, threatening, and for good reason.

00:42:41.760 So, you have to be a conformist.

00:42:46.180 I mean, you shouldn't ultimately be a conformist, but I'm not, I'm not even touting conformity as a virtue in some sense.

00:42:52.680 It's, it's just, it's just necessary in huge societies.

00:42:56.620 Coming up, Jordan and I are going to talk about inequality, as that term is bandied about these days.

00:43:03.140 And even better, we're going to get into men and women.

00:43:07.100 And women wearing makeup, what signals that sends, inadvertently or otherwise. 1.00

00:43:13.440 And we do have some fun back and forth this year.

00:43:16.040 So, you're going to want to hear that.

00:43:17.400 Before we get to that, though, let's talk about our latest feature of Sound Up.

00:43:23.140 This is a feature where we play you a soundbite that was in the news recently and talk a little bit about it.

00:43:28.780 And today, we've got one that made the rounds this week.

00:43:31.660 It's courtesy of, I think, CBS, where the CDC director, Rochelle Walensky, wanted you to feel her pain.

00:43:41.720 Listen.

00:43:42.280 Now is one of those times when I have to share the truth and I have to hope and trust you will listen.

00:43:48.220 I'm going to pause here.

00:43:49.900 I'm going to lose the script.

00:43:51.260 And I'm going to reflect on the recurring feeling I have of impending doom.

00:43:55.300 We have so much to look forward to, so much promise and potential of where we are, and so much reason for hope.

00:44:03.860 But right now, I'm scared.

00:44:05.800 Oh, Rochelle.

00:44:07.760 Your instinct to pause and lose the script was a bad instinct, Rochelle.

00:44:13.360 It was bad.

00:44:14.320 I should have rethought that.

00:44:15.420 You're not very good off the script.

00:44:17.520 It means you say bad things.

00:44:20.600 Like, no one needs to hear a teary CDC director, right?

00:44:24.760 She was doing a White House briefing.

00:44:26.880 The clip we just used from CBS.

00:44:28.620 But she was doing a White House briefing.

00:44:31.900 She went on to say, you know, we're not powerless.

00:44:36.480 We could change this trajectory of the pandemic.

00:44:39.600 And went on to do the old, I'm speaking today, not necessarily as your CDC director,

00:44:45.980 and not only as your CDC director, but as a wife, as a mother, as a daughter,

00:44:51.000 asking you, please, just hold on a little while longer.

00:44:55.440 You know, it was like Jack to Rose on the board in the water next to the Titanic.

00:45:00.400 Just hold on a little longer.

00:45:02.280 Rochelle, could you try to project strength?

00:45:06.460 Could you try to be a leader?

00:45:08.140 You know, it's like she saw Trump telling Bob Woodward that he was just trying not to scare people.

00:45:13.920 And so he was projecting, like, nothing to worry about here because he didn't want to create a national panic.

00:45:18.420 And she went exactly 180 degrees the other way.

00:45:21.340 I do want to panic.

00:45:22.840 Now's the time.

00:45:23.640 I'm scared.

00:45:24.640 I'm scared.

00:45:25.440 Impending doom.

00:45:26.900 See these tears?

00:45:27.900 They're real.

00:45:28.980 Whenever I see that happen, I feel like all of womankind takes a hit. 0.66

00:45:32.200 I have no problem with women crying in their professional setting if it's appropriate. 1.00

00:45:35.640 Like, if it's something emotional happens.

00:45:37.760 Brooke Baldwin broke down on the air the other day when covering a witness in the Chauvin trial. 0.99

00:45:41.040 I understand that.

00:45:42.420 Sometimes emotions get the better of you.

00:45:44.240 But when you are at the White House lectern briefing the nation about a pandemic that's already emotionally charged for a bunch of people and people are unnecessarily panicked over, keep it together, sister.

00:45:59.540 Otherwise, womankind takes a hit. 1.00

00:46:02.280 Professionalism certainly did.

00:46:03.920 And it was an unnecessary and bad moment for her.

00:46:07.940 So, Rochelle, you're going to have more opportunities.

00:46:10.080 Rootin' for you, sister.

00:46:12.440 But this time, thumbs down.

00:46:15.500 Back to Jordan in one second.

00:46:23.280 I mean, why do you think there is such this push to identity politics over the past 15 years?

00:46:29.720 I don't have the exact number.

00:46:32.160 But what's missing?

00:46:33.760 We've had some people say God.

00:46:35.020 We've had some people blame socioeconomic conditions.

00:46:39.960 What do you, what, what's driving this?

00:46:42.340 A lot of it's just bad ideas.

00:46:44.700 It's the, I really blame the universities.

00:46:46.940 It's a huge part.

00:46:48.360 I mean, the universities, first of all, created all these pseudo disciplines starting in the 60s.

00:46:54.200 And that was a catastrophe.

00:46:56.240 They had no intellectual rigor whatsoever.

00:46:59.200 You know, no history of intellectual rigor.

00:47:01.320 No practice of intellectual rigor.

00:47:04.940 They weren't disciplined.

00:47:07.160 They were bones thrown to the mob, I think.

00:47:12.500 And so, and that, and the people in those disciplines played politics within the universities and very effectively.

00:47:22.460 And so, the administration came to adopt their theories, such as they were, as doctrines.

00:47:30.420 I mean, they didn't have any ideas, so they played politics.

00:47:33.200 They took the, they took the systems over politically.

00:47:37.020 And they're doing the same thing now with the hard sciences.

00:47:40.640 The journals, the scientific journals, mathematical journals, that sort of thing, they're increasingly politically correct.

00:47:47.140 They're going to demolish the hard sciences. 0.98

00:47:48.720 That's their, that's their end goal target, fundamentally.

00:47:52.460 At the moment.

00:47:53.960 And the, and the hard scientists, they think, well, we're resistant to that.

00:47:56.880 It's like, no, you're not.

00:47:57.860 You're so naive politically.

00:47:59.060 You don't even know that you're naive politically. 0.83

00:48:02.480 They're just going to roll over, you guys.

00:48:05.800 It's happening.

00:48:06.460 That's how it looks to me.

00:48:07.860 Well, I think so.

00:48:09.380 You know, and what's happening is that.

00:48:10.920 Every day.

00:48:11.360 The universities, the universities are dying because of it.

00:48:13.940 The humanities, like enrollment in humanities plummeted.

00:48:17.680 And the reason for that is that no one in their right mind would, would study.

00:48:22.460 What the humanities have become in their, in their most absurd incarnations.

00:48:28.920 Not good, not good for anything.

00:48:31.220 I mean, humanities are supposed to train you to think and to provide you with a certain degree of historical wisdom.

00:48:37.640 Historically derived wisdom.

00:48:38.880 So you could be a good citizen.

00:48:41.100 If they're not doing that, if they're just teaching you how to be a radical, essentially, you know, to swallow a couple of presuppositions.

00:48:48.260 The culture is essentially oppressive.

00:48:51.580 Morality is, is to be found in the attempt to tear down arbitrary power structures.

00:48:57.260 Christ, you can learn all those axioms in 15 minutes.

00:49:00.560 Why go to university for four years?

00:49:02.340 And once you learn it, what are you going to do with it?

00:49:05.380 Be an activist.

00:49:06.500 Okay, fine.

00:49:07.260 If you want to be an activist.

00:49:08.460 But most people don't.

00:49:09.620 Well, you know what they say.

00:49:11.020 We don't like inequality.

00:49:12.260 We don't like inequality.

00:49:13.440 Well, no one likes inequality.

00:49:15.280 No, nobody likes inequality in some sense.

00:49:17.480 I mean, there isn't anybody who celebrates when they walk down the street and they see homeless people.

00:49:21.520 Everybody, virtually without, you know, the odd person might think, well, if you just straighten up and get a job, you wouldn't be on the street.

00:49:29.940 And, you know, that sort of attitude is usually rather flip and not very well thought through and also rare and not very deep.

00:49:37.540 But most people are, very few people are in favor of absolute poverty.

00:49:41.900 But inequality is a really complicated problem.

00:49:45.000 And part of the problem with ideology is that ideology makes every problem simple and every answer obvious.

00:49:52.720 And every problem isn't simple and every answer isn't obvious.

00:49:56.600 And it requires real education to decompose the problem to see that it's more than one thing.

00:50:03.120 Like, poverty isn't absence of money.

00:50:05.480 It's many things, one of which is relative absence of money and sometimes absolute absence.

00:50:11.060 But especially in a Western society, poverty and absolute deprivation are only loosely linked.

00:50:20.520 There's, you know, alcoholism, drug abuse, criminality, impaired intelligence, low conscientiousness, low agreeableness, prejudice, malnutrition, ill physical health.

00:50:36.040 There's endless numbers of contributors.

00:50:38.900 And each of them is a complex problem in its own right.

00:50:41.440 And you have to have a trained mind to decompose the problem to see that it's any more than just the label.

00:50:47.560 Well, you know, the argument today is that it's the system.

00:50:52.000 It's none of that.

00:50:53.180 It is the system.

00:50:55.120 But what the hell good is that?

00:50:56.100 It has been set up, right? 0.97

00:50:56.760 The system has to be dismantled because it's based on this hierarchy created by men, white men. 0.91

00:51:03.780 And they have all the power and none of these disadvantaged groups have any. 1.00

00:51:07.580 And so that's why everything has to be deconstructed and torn apart, thrown out.

00:51:12.700 And then we have to start anew, although they kind of run out of the plan when you get to the point of, like, what happens when we get rid of all the white men or at least their dominated systems?

00:51:21.020 Yeah, well, I guess the convenient part of that is that it gives people an identifiable enemy.

00:51:28.040 And that gives you something to strive for romantically and morally.

00:51:34.180 But it's extraordinarily dangerous.

00:51:35.640 You know, and the thing is, it's true in some sense.

00:51:39.100 All failings are a consequence of inadequacies of the system.

00:51:43.020 Now, all systematic insufficiencies aren't a consequence of power misuse because there's ignorance, obviously.

00:51:53.120 Part of the reason systems don't work is because we just don't know what to do.

00:51:57.040 It's corruption, of course, is a problem.

00:51:59.040 But ignorance is a bigger problem, at least in our functional society.

00:52:02.560 And so if you eradicate the patriarch, you aren't going to get rid of ignorance.

00:52:07.960 That's for sure.

00:52:08.680 Well, you're not going to get rid of inequality, right?

00:52:10.160 Because you talk a lot about competence.

00:52:11.780 What about competence, variance in competence?

00:52:15.360 Well, yes, absolutely.

00:52:16.860 But you have to admit that this system does something that is laudable in order to believe that movement up and down it is dependent to some degree on competence.

00:52:26.900 It's always to some degree, you know.

00:52:29.060 Well, is the system patriarchal?

00:52:30.960 Well, to some degree.

00:52:32.000 Is it corrupt?

00:52:32.740 Well, to some degree.

00:52:33.700 Is it based on competence?

00:52:35.840 Well, to some degree.

00:52:37.720 And those answers aren't as satisfying in some sense emotionally as the more cut and dried answers like, well, it's a hierarchy.

00:52:47.260 It's power.

00:52:49.340 People get and the hierarchy itself is based on power.

00:52:53.520 I mean, even chimpanzee hierarchies aren't based on power, not if they're stable. 1.00

00:52:57.380 It's a stupid theory. 1.00

00:52:59.500 It's an ignorant theory. 1.00

00:53:01.000 And in our society, at least when its subcomponents are functioning properly, people who maneuver for reasons that only have to do with power are generally not successful for very long because no one wants to have anything to do with them. 0.86

00:53:17.400 That's interesting.

00:53:18.040 Who wants to work for someone who dominates them all the time? 0.97

00:53:20.920 They're just going to, well, first of all, they're not going to be very motivated.

00:53:24.500 And second of all, they're going to take every opportunity they possibly can to take revenge on the power of the person who's power hungry above them.

00:53:32.480 They'll sabotage them.

00:53:33.560 They'll inform on them.

00:53:35.180 They'll go over their head.

00:53:36.220 They'll conspire against them.

00:53:38.120 Like power is a very, very unstable basis for a hierarchical position.

00:53:43.020 And it is what incompetent people default to, but that doesn't mean that it's the rule.

00:53:51.260 It's not the rule among truly successful people.

00:53:55.320 I mean, partly you see that if you know successful people who are good people in the main, one of the things they delight in doing is mentoring and helping people establish their careers and move up.

00:54:06.820 And it's a primary source of gratification.

00:54:09.820 These professors have that with their graduate students.

00:54:12.100 And if they're good professors, they strive to make their students successful.

00:54:15.740 And they do that because it's gratifying, at least in part.

00:54:19.040 It's great to foster someone's career.

00:54:21.580 What do you make of people?

00:54:22.360 Because I've certainly heard this said in women's circles many times that, you know, the system is male-dominated. 1.00

00:54:29.100 Just corporate America is male-dominated.

00:54:31.000 Political systems are male-dominated here and in Canada.

00:54:34.620 And that, you know, you can, I certainly understand the argument that women make different choices. 1.00

00:54:41.520 Women may prioritize family. 1.00

00:54:43.540 Women are the ones who have the children and that necessarily pulls them away from the office and so on. 1.00

00:54:47.520 I get all of that.

00:54:48.840 But men are the ones who set up the systems. 0.69

00:54:51.640 Men are the ones who initially placed the values on the traits that men have.

00:54:56.100 Like, that's where I see the patriarchy, that, you know, the systematic sort of bias or set up that doesn't inure to the benefit of women.

00:55:06.480 What's value?

00:55:07.620 It's not the feminist. 0.97

00:55:09.700 Men and women set up the value structure, not just men.

00:55:12.660 I mean, women are, and this is painfully obvious, 0.95

00:55:17.000 women, uh, and biologically, uh, women are much more likely to be sexually attractive to men who are, um, successful in their hierarchical structures. 0.96

00:55:31.100 It's one of the primary determinants of male attractiveness to women.

00:55:34.380 So women reward, uh, men who are successful in the patriarchy by, uh, granting them sexual access. 0.90

00:55:43.660 And, you know, you can be less cynical about that.

00:55:47.320 They're more likely, they're more likely to marry them.

00:55:50.000 Well, they're way more likely.

00:55:50.900 And it's true cross-culturally.

00:55:52.200 I mean, it modifies to some degree in the Scandinavian countries.

00:55:54.900 That's actually one place where egalitarian social policies have dampened a sex difference. 0.99

00:56:00.500 As a general rule, they, they make the sex differences bigger. 0.73

00:56:03.660 Like differences in personality and an interest are bigger in the Scandinavian countries than they are in less egalitarian societies.

00:56:10.880 But the proclivity for women to, oh, well, um, the biggest differences between men and women in terms of personality are, are in the Scandinavian countries.

00:56:20.780 And the more egalitarian the countries become, the more different men and women become in personality, not the more similar.

00:56:27.160 And they also get more different in interest.

00:56:28.920 It's because if you get rid of the sociological differences, the biological differences maximize.

00:56:35.880 They don't minimize.

00:56:36.760 In what way?

00:56:37.480 Give me an example.

00:56:38.280 Data is, data is absolutely, well, um, there's five cardinal personality traits.

00:56:43.080 And women differ from men, uh, primarily on two of them. 0.97

00:56:48.200 They're more agreeable.

00:56:49.680 And so agreeable people are warmer, more empathic, more polite, uh, um, more empathetic, more compassionate, uh, less agreeable.

00:56:58.960 People are harsher, uh, less agreeable, um, more antisocial, more likely to be imprisoned.

00:57:05.020 And, um, and men on average are less agreeable than women or women are more agreeable.

00:57:10.680 And it's, if you took, if you, if you take, uh, a random man out of the population and a random woman, and you bet that the woman would be more agreeable than the man, you'd be right 60% of the time.

00:57:23.420 That's about the size of the difference.

00:57:24.880 So that's, that's one difference between men and women. 0.87

00:57:27.540 And another is that women are higher in, they experience more negative emotion and they experience it more intensely.

00:57:36.260 Uh, now there are some women who aren't like that compared to some men because the curves mostly overlap, but that's where the biggest differences are.

00:57:45.500 Okay.

00:57:45.900 So then you might say, well, those differences are so social in their origin.

00:57:49.780 And so then you would look at countries where, um, the men and women are treated the same and you'd expect the differences culturally, you'd expect the differences to decrease, but that is what happens.

00:58:03.380 The opposite happens.

00:58:04.940 So the less egalitarian the society, the more women and men are the same in personality, the more egalitarian the society, the less men and women are the same.

00:58:15.580 Also, the other thing that happens is that in the more egalitarian countries, the difference between male and females in terms of interest also grows rather than shrinking, which is why even in the Scandinavian countries, the vast preponderance of nurses are female and the vast preponderance of engineers are males.

00:58:36.260 And no amount of social engineering short of absolute tyranny looks like it's likely to ameliorate that.

00:58:43.320 It's not a difference in ability.

00:58:44.920 It's not a difference in ability.

00:58:46.680 The data on that are pretty clear.

00:58:48.220 There might be a slight edge for men in spatial intelligence and a slight edge for women in verbal intelligence, but the fundamental determining factor driving career choice looks like it's interest.

00:58:58.640 Different career choices between men and women looks like it's interest, not ability.

00:59:01.880 When you understand that you have to be really interested in something to pursue it as a career, then even small differences in interest between men and women can drive huge differences in occupational choice at the extremes.

00:59:17.640 And that's where all the selection takes place.

00:59:19.440 So that's why, you know, 10 times as many people in jail are men rather than women.

00:59:25.780 You know, men aren't that much more aggressive than women physically.

00:59:29.080 They are more aggressive.

00:59:30.300 But at the extremes, it's all men.

00:59:32.680 And these differences matter.

00:59:34.160 I don't think you're wrong that, you know, we are sort of biologically, we lean towards certain traits.

00:59:41.640 And I don't think we need to deny that in order to...

00:59:43.640 Well, we lean.

00:59:44.560 We lean.

00:59:45.240 That's it.

00:59:45.840 It doesn't have to be a walloping effect to make itself quite manifest at the level of occupational choice.

00:59:53.060 It doesn't mean men and women are radically different.

00:59:56.660 I've heard you say that women who have some more masculine traits have tended to do better in the professional world at times and get challenged by that.

01:00:06.340 And I have to say, that's been my own experience.

01:00:08.400 I understand what you're saying.

01:00:10.240 And I can relate to it.

01:00:12.820 One of the predictors of income is agreeableness.

01:00:16.420 All things, all other things being equal, more agreeable people get paid less.

01:00:21.900 And it's probably because they don't push as hard for salary.

01:00:26.180 It's not like people come up to you and say, do you want some more money?

01:00:28.540 I mean, that happens now and then.

01:00:30.440 But often, you have to go, like, push for it.

01:00:33.500 Say, look, you're not valuing me properly.

01:00:36.800 And if you don't increase my salary 15%, I'm going to leave.

01:00:40.480 It's not a pleasant conversation.

01:00:43.580 You know, and if you don't have those conversations, you're somewhat less likely to get a raise.

01:00:49.200 Well, and women are socialized to be liked. 1.00

01:00:52.600 I mean, we're raised to be liked.

01:00:53.740 That's what's valued in us.

01:00:54.960 And men, not so much.

01:00:56.240 Men are socialized to win, to get ahead, to be tough.

01:01:00.460 Well, it's not that straightforward.

01:01:02.880 I mean, men.

01:01:04.280 So I just did this podcast with Jocko Willick a week ago or so.

01:01:09.040 And, you know, Jocko's a warrior type of guy.

01:01:12.240 And a lot of that's just right in his character.

01:01:15.260 And he's very aware of that.

01:01:17.020 And, you know, he went through Navy SEAL training, for example.

01:01:20.080 And you think, well, here's dominant, aggressive male and physically intimidating as well by anyone's standards.

01:01:27.700 And interested in that sort of thing.

01:01:29.680 Like, he's got a warrior spirit, combative spirit.

01:01:33.700 You know what?

01:01:34.180 The first rule for the Navy SEALs is you have your buddy's back.

01:01:37.740 It's not like every man for himself.

01:01:39.540 It is not that at all.

01:01:41.420 It's not that at all.

01:01:42.700 And that's something that I don't know.

01:01:45.260 That can't be emphasized enough.

01:01:47.280 That isn't how male groups work. 0.99

01:01:50.280 It's like, yeah, we like winners.

01:01:52.900 But selfish winners?

01:01:54.480 It's like, they get stomped, man.

01:01:56.980 They get, you want your guy to have your back.

01:02:01.460 But do you think men are raised to be nice?

01:02:03.980 Because I can tell you, I don't know a woman who doesn't have 50,000 stories about how she was praised for that.

01:02:09.980 That was the thing that was, like, reinforced over and over by teachers, by parents, by every adult.

01:02:15.140 Like, that's what's expected.

01:02:16.460 And that and being pretty.

01:02:17.780 Those are sort of the two best things you can be, sadly, as a young girl.

01:02:21.180 I think that I think there is no shortage of that.

01:02:26.440 And, you know, women are more agreeable than men.

01:02:31.160 So there's a biological end there.

01:02:32.660 And it's certainly possible that that's also reinforced by society.

01:02:35.920 But I can tell you that the consequence of that, still, in the Scandinavian countries, is that despite the movement towards egalitarian treatment, that difference has got bigger, not smaller.

01:02:48.340 So you can't tell what it means that women are treated that way. 1.00

01:02:54.760 Exactly.

01:02:55.320 You can't tell if that's a social function or if it's a biological function or how it's operating or what should be done about it, if anything.

01:03:02.960 If anything, right.

01:03:04.020 You know, certainly women are, are women encouraged to be beautiful? 0.95

01:03:07.740 I mean, well, that's a tough one, too.

01:03:10.740 Yes, I would say.

01:03:11.700 But they're also inclined to desire that intensely.

01:03:17.560 Well, yeah.

01:03:18.020 I mean, that's a chicken or the egg situation.

01:03:20.680 Well, I suppose it is.

01:03:22.000 I think the desire to be attractive or the necessity of being attractive, for that matter, is so deep that, you know, to attribute it to purely social forces, it's absurd.

01:03:34.520 The preference of men for youth and women sexually is not social, fundamentally.

01:03:40.880 It's biological.

01:03:41.840 I mean, it's tied extraordinarily tightly to fecundity.

01:03:44.720 You can just map the distributions.

01:03:47.260 If you look at how men rate women in terms of attractiveness across age and then put that graph against a fecundity graph, they're the same thing.

01:03:55.980 It's crystal clear.

01:03:57.240 And how could it possibly be otherwise?

01:04:00.020 I mean, how could it be that the human race would have possibly survived if men didn't find women at the peak of their fertility most attractive? 0.97

01:04:07.160 Well, this is what we're up against.

01:04:08.440 This is what women are up against because we do have to have the babies and we do have to find male suitors. 1.00

01:04:14.000 And yet we've emerged into this time where we also want, some of us want, to run the corporate board.

01:04:20.860 And some of us want to be taken perfectly serious at the office, even though, you know, we're wearing makeup and our hair looks good and all that.

01:04:29.600 Well, it's great that that's how it is.

01:04:32.620 I mean, look, as soon as women enter the workplace, the human race has twice the brain power. 1.00

01:04:41.120 Who in the right mind would be object to that?

01:04:43.900 Well, it's not that they object to it, but they don't necessarily want it as C-suite.

01:04:48.000 Yeah, no, I understand what you mean.

01:04:49.780 I understand what you mean.

01:04:50.960 I'm just saying that it's a good thing that it's happened, that women have, that we've managed to figure out how to provide women with enough freedom so that now their capabilities can be manifested in all sorts of places they hadn't been manifested before.

01:05:08.540 That's a net win for everyone.

01:05:10.200 Now, is there some resistance?

01:05:11.960 There's going to be resistance.

01:05:13.420 I mean, it's also partly because men don't actually know how to compete against women in the workplace.

01:05:19.240 That's true.

01:05:19.960 I mean, well, what's the rule for a man?

01:05:24.100 Like in a law firm, for example, the guys have each other's back in a particular way, but they're competing with each other like mad, right?

01:05:34.080 Because they want to, well, they want to win.

01:05:37.220 Okay, so what's the right attitude towards, what's the right attitude for a man towards a woman who he's competing with?

01:05:44.680 Is he supposed to win?

01:05:45.840 Is he supposed to stomp her like he's going to try to stomp his buddy next door? 1.00

01:05:50.740 What's exactly the moral thing to do?

01:05:53.180 Well, is it?

01:05:53.840 Really?

01:05:54.600 Yes.

01:05:55.180 Yeah.

01:05:55.480 I mean, listen, I can tell you, look, if you're playing mixed doubles and you're the male half of the pair on the one side, you're not supposed to kill the woman on the other side. 0.96

01:06:06.680 But in a corporate setting where it's a battle of minds, killer. 0.68

01:06:11.720 And if you take your foot off the gas, it's sexist.

01:06:15.420 Yeah, well, that's easy to say, but it doesn't play out like that in interpersonal interactions because it's too complicated.

01:06:21.360 Well, I think men need to talk about it.

01:06:22.760 I mean, it's one good thing you've been doing is raising some of these issues.

01:06:25.240 I mean, men need to ask about it.

01:06:26.740 We're sort of just getting to the point where people are openly having these discussions.

01:06:30.700 I have the answers.

01:06:32.000 On this, I'm going to write the rules.

01:06:33.980 Just go and talk about it.

01:06:35.780 You know, I mean, I would certainly say, yeah, I'll just give you one silly aside.

01:06:41.080 But, you know, Oprah Winfrey did the big interview of Meghan Markle and Prince Harry.

01:06:44.880 And I had some I had some criticisms of Oprah because I thought she really should have drilled down in some more details the night she did it. 0.79

01:06:52.340 And some people were accusing me of being racist because I had some criticisms of Oprah, who happens to be black, but is also a billionaire and a very successful journalist.

01:07:03.420 Well, she used to be a journalist.

01:07:04.340 Now she's talk show. 1.00

01:07:05.780 And my point was, it would be it would be an insult to her for me to hold back. 0.98

01:07:12.980 I respect her enough to punch her right in the face. 0.97

01:07:16.100 I don't care what her lady parts are. 1.00

01:07:18.620 I don't care what her skin color is. 0.99

01:07:21.120 If I have a criticism of her as a professional, I will do her the courtesy of not holding back.

01:07:26.100 And if a man ever didn't criticize me because I was a woman at the office or didn't go for the jugular when we were both vying for a job.

01:07:33.700 And trust me, in the media, that's happened to me many times.

01:07:36.600 I've come out on top a lot, but not in every circumstance.

01:07:39.720 How can you how can a man hold off in the corporate setting and expect not to wind up loathing women?

01:07:47.280 Well, he's going to hold off because he doesn't know how to do it.

01:07:51.800 Like, you know, the rules with another man and a head to head competition.

01:07:56.980 You know, the rules.

01:07:57.960 But if it's if you're competing against a woman, you don't know the rules. 0.99

01:08:01.660 Neither does she.

01:08:02.900 That's why there's so much friction between men and women in the workplace. 1.00

01:08:06.480 I mean, some of the rules we know, obviously.

01:08:08.140 I think we know the rule.

01:08:09.040 I think women are expecting men to give it to them professionally. 1.00

01:08:10.180 No, you don't.

01:08:10.540 How would you?

01:08:11.000 How could you possibly know the rules?

01:08:13.140 We've only been working together for 50 years.

01:08:16.100 No one knows the rules.

01:08:17.760 This is new.

01:08:18.140 Go for it.

01:08:19.120 No, but women are used to competing against other women. 1.00

01:08:21.960 No, you don't.

01:08:23.220 Yeah, but the way women compete isn't the way men compete. 0.99

01:08:26.420 It's a completely different thing.

01:08:28.460 I mean, I think.

01:08:28.700 No, but it's really different.

01:08:29.800 No, but it's really different.

01:08:30.860 Like the male pattern of aggression, let's say the male pattern of aggression, if you

01:08:34.760 look at antisocial people, the male pattern of aggression is physical.

01:08:39.960 The female pattern of aggression is reputation destruction. 1.00

01:08:43.980 Those are completely different things.

01:08:45.620 No, no, but no man in the corporate setting can use physical aggression as a means of settling

01:08:51.660 a dispute or getting ahead.

01:08:52.680 That's not appropriate in any workplace setting other than, you know, wrestling.

01:08:56.980 I know.

01:08:57.660 I understand that.

01:08:58.520 But it's still that the basic pattern still underlies the interaction.

01:09:03.980 So if two men are talking to each other, competing with each other, there's always

01:09:07.820 this idea in the background of how far it can go.

01:09:10.640 If it goes too far, the physical element enters in.

01:09:14.080 And so that binds the discussion.

01:09:17.440 It's always the case in discussions between men.

01:09:20.540 And that just doesn't pertain in discussions between men and women.

01:09:24.420 It's not the same.

01:09:26.140 It shouldn't.

01:09:26.580 So, and yeah, well, it can't, it can't.

01:09:29.900 I mean, roughly speaking, one man is a match for another physically, but that's just not

01:09:34.960 the case between a man and a woman.

01:09:36.300 Men have a terrible advantage, especially in the upper body strength.

01:09:41.620 I know, but overall size.

01:09:44.420 I've been in corporate America now for almost 30 years in both very male dominated industries,

01:09:51.040 10 years as a lawyer and the rest in journalism, very male dominated and certainly controlled by

01:09:55.640 men at the highest levels.

01:09:58.640 It's been fine.

01:09:59.520 And like, listen, I've, I certainly had more than my fair share of sexism and I've had 0.99

01:10:02.900 male jerks and I've had female jerks, but I don't know what you're talking about. 0.99

01:10:09.020 Like, I don't think it's a mystery to me how to compete against a man at all. 0.99

01:10:13.100 And I don't think it's been a mystery to my male colleagues and how to compete against

01:10:16.300 me.

01:10:16.700 They gave it to me good and I gave it right back.

01:10:18.460 Well, that may be true in your situation that I can't say because I don't know enough

01:10:24.120 about the particulars of your situation, but I've had plenty of female clients who've 0.99

01:10:28.680 been in the corporate world and I've watched the complexities of their interactions with

01:10:33.200 men.

01:10:33.960 There's a sexual aspect that enters into it too.

01:10:36.080 That's also extraordinarily complicated.

01:10:39.140 Yes, that's true.

01:10:40.460 Yes, yes, definitely.

01:10:41.920 And it's not like we know, we know the obvious rules, but we certainly don't know the subtle

01:10:47.120 rules and we don't know how that plays out in the workplace environment.

01:10:53.460 So what about that?

01:10:54.880 I'm not saying this is hopeless by any stretch of the imagination, just that it's complicated.

01:10:59.140 And it's just that it's complicated.

01:11:01.420 We've got to talk about it.

01:11:02.340 But what about that?

01:11:03.560 Because I did read one quote I read from you that I was like, OK, I do got to ask him

01:11:07.760 about that was somebody asked you if a woman wears makeup to the workplace and she doesn't

01:11:14.240 want to be sexually harassed in the workplace, is she being hypocritical? 1.00

01:11:18.620 And you said, yeah, I do think that, that it's hypocritical for a woman who doesn't want 0.98

01:11:23.020 to be harassed in the workplace to wear makeup to work.

01:11:25.560 Is that true?

01:11:25.920 No, I didn't say that.

01:11:26.960 No, it's not true.

01:11:28.260 I wanted to ask you because I know how the press is. 0.97

01:11:30.660 No, what I was talking to a reporter who was particularly provocative and ignorant and 0.92

01:11:36.420 who thought he knew far more about everything than he knew about anything. 0.96

01:11:39.580 And we were talking about makeup and I said that the purpose of makeup is sexual signaling.

01:11:45.560 And, you know, he just blew his top.

01:11:47.380 It's like, well, that just surprised me.

01:11:49.400 It's like, well, what the hell do you think the purpose of makeup is?

01:11:52.460 You know, obviously, that's what it is.

01:11:55.220 It's clear by every possible standpoint of analysis.

01:12:00.380 And I talked to Helen Lewis about that, too.

01:12:02.940 No, it is.

01:12:03.480 It is.

01:12:04.400 What do you mean?

01:12:05.140 What if you've got bad acne and you just want to cover it up because you don't look nice?

01:12:08.940 Why do you want to cover it up?

01:12:12.000 Because it's embarrassing.

01:12:12.800 So that you're more attractive.

01:12:13.800 Acting is like a form of sickness.

01:12:15.440 Well, it doesn't necessarily need to be to a man. 0.63

01:12:18.120 Like, it could be, you know, I mean, a lesbian could be working with all men and could wear 0.98

01:12:22.700 makeup just because she thinks it makes her look nice.

01:12:25.040 It's not all about sexual attraction.

01:12:27.780 It's not.

01:12:28.460 Nothing is ever all about one thing, you know, and there are norms as well.

01:12:33.800 But, look, the reason that women put lipstick on is to make their lips look luscious and 1.00

01:12:41.420 youthful.

01:12:42.500 That's why.

01:12:44.460 Why use red?

01:12:47.360 Because it looks nice.

01:12:48.600 It's a sign of youth.

01:12:49.760 Well, yes, that's not the issue.

01:12:51.160 The issue is, no, no, I'm dead serious.

01:12:53.580 Yes, it looks nice.

01:12:54.700 The issue is, why does it look nice?

01:12:57.840 What does nice mean?

01:12:59.260 You know, it's so automatic.

01:13:01.940 You think, well, that looks nice.

01:13:02.940 Yes, that's exactly my point.

01:13:04.940 It's so deeply embedded in our biology that the attractiveness of it is self-evident.

01:13:12.260 So I pointed out to Helen Lewis, for example, that-

01:13:14.760 How is it different from wearing a nice outfit?

01:13:15.640 How is that a bridge farther than putting on a dress or-

01:13:19.680 Well, it's more direct.

01:13:21.880 Styling your hair.

01:13:23.820 There's plenty of sexual signaling in dress and hair choice. 0.82

01:13:27.420 I mean, you don't want your hair looking old.

01:13:31.040 That's why you dye it so that it looks younger.

01:13:33.740 You don't want it thin because thin is a sign of age.

01:13:36.840 So you want it to be fuller.

01:13:39.060 You don't want it to look unkempt because that's a marker for ill health.

01:13:43.740 You're basically saying unless a woman rolls out of bed in the morning, maybe takes a shower 1.00

01:13:47.640 and goes in looking like the drowned rat we all look like when we get out of the shower,

01:13:51.300 warts and all, we're asking for somebody to come on to us.

01:13:54.660 And that's not true.

01:13:56.360 No, I'm not.

01:13:57.000 I'm not saying that at all.

01:13:58.620 I'm saying that the reason-

01:13:59.300 Well, if makeup is a hypocritical move, if makeup is somehow sexually provocative-

01:14:03.240 I didn't say it was a hypocritical move.

01:14:05.040 It is definitely that.

01:14:06.660 It's definitely that.

01:14:08.100 It's definitely that.

01:14:09.200 It's an attempt to mimic fecundity.

01:14:11.340 It's precisely what it is.

01:14:13.480 So how does that-

01:14:15.100 I mean, honestly, because men die there and there.

01:14:17.460 Men do- 0.98

01:14:18.100 Look, you don't make yourself up to look old.

01:14:21.180 You make yourself up to look young, unblemished skin, wrinkle-free skin.

01:14:26.940 I really don't know that.

01:14:28.200 No, no, no.

01:14:28.680 But blemished skin is young. 1.00

01:14:30.600 That's young.

01:14:31.720 It just doesn't look pretty.

01:14:33.020 Yeah, but it's not young and healthy.

01:14:34.840 It's not young and healthy.

01:14:36.060 And that's the real hallmark.

01:14:37.100 But what about-

01:14:38.220 And youth and health are very tightly associated.

01:14:40.700 What about men?

01:14:41.740 I know a man in New York who I constantly see at the place I get my facial done, and he's

01:14:47.580 underneath the lights, and he's getting his skin to look.

01:14:50.180 It's somebody whose name everybody here would know.

01:14:52.540 He worked in the Trump White House for a short time.

01:14:55.400 Anyway, my point is-

01:14:56.440 There is some association for men, certainly for physical attractiveness is sexually desirable.

01:15:03.640 Symmetry, for example.

01:15:04.840 And some signs of youth, like a full head of hair, men, the signals that attract men

01:15:10.620 to women, no, the signals that attract women to men are different than the signals that

01:15:14.720 attract men to women. 0.99

01:15:16.140 So youth isn't as important for a man to display.

01:15:20.380 So, but-

01:15:21.380 As you point out, the big bank book could be it.

01:15:23.720 Well, it isn't even the big bank book.

01:15:25.540 It's actually more like the ability to generate a big bank book, because women will settle for 1.00

01:15:30.680 markers of wealth, but what they're really looking for is markers of competence.

01:15:33.980 And wealth is a decent marker for competence, although it's not unerring.

01:15:38.860 What do you say to your daughter?

01:15:40.200 Do you say, if you don't want to be harassed at the workplace, don't put out on foundation

01:15:44.900 lipstick or mascara, because that's going to be a problem for you?

01:15:48.020 I'm not saying at all that women who wear makeup in the workplace should be harassed. 0.70

01:15:52.760 No, I know.

01:15:54.300 I know.

01:15:54.620 I'm saying that if you wear makeup, you're trying to magnify your sexual attractiveness.

01:15:59.040 And that's definitely the case.

01:16:00.680 Even if you don't know it, just because you don't know it doesn't mean that that isn't

01:16:04.140 what you're doing.

01:16:05.260 We do all sorts of things that we don't understand because we don't look into them deeply.

01:16:08.640 I understand.

01:16:09.380 You're saying that in the same way we're programmed, as you point out, like men want younger women

01:16:13.700 because they want to procreate with them and they like the wider hips. 1.00

01:16:16.280 I mean, all this has been proven.

01:16:17.120 They want the wider hips and they want the breasts and all that stuff because, you know, 0.98

01:16:20.980 evolution.

01:16:22.020 I get it.

01:16:22.420 You're saying it's sort of an extension of that.

01:16:24.500 Yes, definitely that.

01:16:25.760 There's no doubt about that.

01:16:27.160 And, you know, I told Helen Lewis when she interviewed me for GQ that red is attractive

01:16:32.560 because it's associated with ripe fruit.

01:16:34.860 She didn't like that at all.

01:16:35.740 But all you have to do is leaf through a woman's magazine and you figure out pretty quickly 1.00

01:16:38.440 that red is associated with ripe fruit.

01:16:41.240 Well, we evolved color vision to detect red.

01:16:44.060 I mean, I'm not offended by that.

01:16:46.160 I'm not offended by that.

01:16:47.040 This is all possible.

01:16:48.380 You can even be offended if you could find it offensive and perhaps even rightly so.

01:16:53.380 But if it's offensive, it's not my fault.

01:16:55.980 And it's not like I'm inventing these ideas.

01:16:58.200 It could easily be offensive, you know, that women, let's say, are valued more than might

01:17:03.460 be deserved because they show signs of fecundity in youth and that gets confused with their

01:17:08.480 competence.

01:17:09.140 That might be deeply offensive.

01:17:10.640 It also might be something that we should struggle against.

01:17:13.220 That could easily be the case.

01:17:14.900 But that doesn't mean that that isn't how it is.

01:17:16.960 And, you know, why do you think women wear high heels? 1.00

01:17:21.540 Because they were they were the options placed in front of us by men who wanted to stifle us.

01:17:25.140 Yeah, sure.

01:17:28.560 Yeah, right.

01:17:29.340 No, listen.

01:17:29.880 No, I don't think so.

01:17:31.640 For I'm not I don't deny any of this because, you know, like we've been talking about the

01:17:34.880 the Miss America pageant and that they've taken away the swimsuit competition because 0.98

01:17:39.920 they somehow they think it's more empowering just to have just the evening gowns.

01:17:43.000 Right.

01:17:43.180 And now people are going to take them seriously, which I don't I don't think they will any more

01:17:46.820 than they did.

01:17:47.380 And but I am somebody who believes part of being part of the fun of being a woman is

01:17:54.120 your sex appeal.

01:17:55.660 I think it's awesome.

01:17:56.760 I think it's great.

01:17:57.400 Like you I think it's great.

01:17:58.780 We get to wear high heels and we get to wear saucy dresses and we get to do our hair and

01:18:02.080 we have a lot more tools at our disposal than the average man to make ourselves look good.

01:18:05.700 And I do think it is a source of power.

01:18:08.860 You're not wrong.

01:18:10.020 It's a source of power, whether it's sexual power. 0.97

01:18:12.460 Maybe that's those are the origins.

01:18:14.820 And it's you can feel it.

01:18:16.820 It's a stunning source of power.

01:18:18.440 It's just right.

01:18:18.960 But my feelings are corporate competent power.

01:18:21.740 It's a different kind of power.

01:18:23.440 What do you mean?

01:18:23.840 It's not corporate competent power.

01:18:25.760 Well, looking good in the swimsuit isn't going to necessarily make you a good CEO.

01:18:29.780 Like they're no, but looking good, but looking good, mate, because people tend to like attractive

01:18:34.720 faces, male or female.

01:18:36.380 Yes, definitely.

01:18:37.220 There's there's some overlap in terms of charisma.

01:18:39.840 There's no doubt about that.

01:18:41.200 And and and so differentiating, you know, determining what criteria should be used in what

01:18:46.500 situation gets complicated situations like that.

01:18:49.320 I mean, all things considered, it's better to be attractive than unattractive, obviously,

01:18:53.180 in all sorts of ways.

01:18:54.980 I just think if women get attraction, get attention, right, whether it's based in some latent

01:19:00.540 need for sexual attraction or what have you, then good on them, because it's not I don't

01:19:06.520 think most women are consciously looking for that kind of attention. 0.94

01:19:08.880 I can certainly say they're not looking to be harassed, but sometimes you got to see

01:19:13.500 the table, you got to jump up and down, but everybody's looking for attention. 0.98

01:19:18.480 It's just foolish to. 0.99

01:19:20.140 Yes. 0.92

01:19:20.400 So I mean, and of course, people wear makeup for attention because they wear it because

01:19:25.700 everyone else can see it.

01:19:27.380 If you weren't wearing it for attention, you just stay there and look in the mirror.

01:19:31.480 Obviously, I don't think it's for attention.

01:19:33.500 I just don't see it like that.

01:19:34.620 I have to say now, then why wouldn't you just stay home with your makeup?

01:19:39.480 Why wouldn't you stay home with your attention?

01:19:42.040 To me, it's the same thing as working out.

01:19:44.240 You just want to look your best.

01:19:45.720 You feel good when you feel you look your best.

01:19:48.900 You you you'd like as little ab flab as possible when you work out, you know, that that has 0.98

01:19:54.440 direct impact on your health, right?

01:19:57.100 It might also make you more attractive.

01:19:59.060 But so that's it.

01:20:00.100 That's a different issue.

01:20:01.040 You get healthier when you work out.

01:20:02.520 You don't get healthier when you put on makeup.

01:20:04.620 Makeup is to regulate other people's response to you.

01:20:09.160 Obviously, it's like a mask.

01:20:12.060 It's no different than anything wrong with it.

01:20:14.760 I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it.

01:20:16.740 I'm just saying what it is.

01:20:18.440 I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it.

01:20:20.740 I'm not accusing you of saying that.

01:20:22.140 I'm not saying that women who are wearing makeup are inviting, you know, negative, negative 1.00

01:20:26.700 sexual attention and they deserve it if they get it. 1.00

01:20:29.020 I'm not saying that at all.

01:20:30.820 Got it.

01:20:31.300 Not the least bit.

01:20:32.920 I hear you.

01:20:33.660 It sounds like some other reporter accused you of that.

01:20:36.020 But this one isn't.

01:20:37.860 I'm just trying to figure out, you know, if you're advising your child, right?

01:20:42.940 You have a daughter and so do I.

01:20:44.280 How to go to the office and behave appropriately while minimizing one's chances of sexual harassment.

01:20:51.360 That's something with which I've had to deal.

01:20:53.120 Well, what do you say?

01:20:56.300 What would you say?

01:20:57.520 Well, I guess one thing I would say is that if anything untoward does start to happen,

01:21:03.120 to document it right away, to write it down and to tell someone very quickly, someone

01:21:07.200 you trust, but to keep a written record of it.

01:21:09.640 So that protects you.

01:21:10.540 So, you know, and I would also say that you should think through the relationship between

01:21:15.620 romance and work very carefully.

01:21:17.000 And it's tough, right?

01:21:18.140 Because, you know, people tend to be attracted to those people that they're around.

01:21:22.620 And so it's very frequently the case that workplace romances will erupt.

01:21:28.060 And it's going to be inevitable to some degree when you have men and women together, unless 0.91

01:21:33.160 you put draconian policies in place.

01:21:34.980 And that's not sustainable in the long run.

01:21:37.420 No, it's fraught.

01:21:38.200 I don't know.

01:21:38.440 It's fraught.

01:21:39.680 You know, advice is tough.

01:21:41.180 I would say with my daughter, I hope that, you know, in the main, she's learned enough from

01:21:46.380 her own experience and from our attempts to raise her properly, that she's wise enough

01:21:51.520 to wend her way through complex environments and not find herself in trouble unduly.

01:21:59.960 So there's no simple solution.

01:22:02.640 There's no simple solution.

01:22:05.440 Pay attention to your conscience.

01:22:07.240 That's a good one.

01:22:08.460 Don't lie to yourself.

01:22:09.940 That's a good one.

01:22:11.540 Try to make sure your messages are clear and make sure that you're clear in yourself about

01:22:17.820 what you're after and what you're up to.

01:22:21.520 Um, but, and, and then, you know, beware of predators.

01:22:25.860 Yeah.

01:22:26.540 Beware that they exist and, and, and be careful.

01:22:30.800 Let me ask you this, because we didn't get around to, I think the most poignant message

01:22:34.740 of, of the book, which is responsibility, taking on the difficult task, because you seem

01:22:42.460 to conclude in the book that that's, that's key to having a meaningful life.

01:22:47.640 Well, what I've been really struck by in talking to the audiences that I've talked to is that

01:22:52.780 you need a sustaining meaning in your life because life is difficult.

01:22:57.120 It's tragic and it's rife with suffering.

01:22:59.580 That's inedible.

01:23:01.080 And so the question is, where are you most likely to find that sustaining meaning?

01:23:05.980 You take responsibility for your career, for your education, for people that you love,

01:23:10.260 for your family and your community, if you can manage it.

01:23:13.960 And that's where you find the meaning that sustains you to the degree that you take responsibility

01:23:19.500 for it.

01:23:20.140 It's an, a very reliable story of, of significance and it's, it's to everyone's advantage as well,

01:23:27.100 not, not just yours.

01:23:29.140 Well said.

01:23:29.800 I hope we can do it again, Jordan.

01:23:31.460 I feel like we've only scratched the surface, but I'm, I'm a big fan of yours.

01:23:35.100 Thanks a lot, Megan.

01:23:36.060 I appreciate it.

01:23:36.700 Well, that was amazing.

01:23:42.620 I thoroughly enjoyed talking to him and only wish we had more time, right?

01:23:47.520 He was very generous with his time, but I want more.

01:23:49.560 I feel like I always want more with big brains like his, right?

01:23:53.320 It's like we only scratched the surface.

01:23:55.660 So, so hopefully he'll come back.

01:23:57.720 Hopefully you enjoyed it.

01:23:58.500 Let us know.

01:23:59.060 You can go to the Apple reviews and, and, uh, tell me what you thought of the whole exchange

01:24:02.520 because I know I had fun.

01:24:05.080 I hope he did too.

01:24:06.240 And I hope he's, he's doing well.

01:24:08.120 Now he's been through quite a battle with his public, with his health.

01:24:10.440 He's written all about it in the latest book.

01:24:12.340 Um, so wishing him nothing but wellness and a willingness to come back on Monday.

01:24:17.620 Don't forget to tune in because we have Candace Owens. 1.00

01:24:20.400 I'm psyched.

01:24:21.140 She's coming on again.

01:24:22.160 She's got a new show to promote. 0.99

01:24:23.560 So we got her back and she's always spicy about virtually every issue.

01:24:28.120 And we're going to ask her about how she basically got this Democrat politician who's

01:24:32.200 been bothering her for a couple of years to bow out of politics.

01:24:37.320 And she's involved the police. 0.92

01:24:39.780 Don't just don't mess with Candace. 0.74

01:24:42.040 That's a good rule.

01:24:42.980 Just don't mess with her unless you are truly intellectually gifted and willing to do severe

01:24:47.140 battle.

01:24:47.960 You might want to keep your powder dry.

01:24:49.700 Uh, in the meantime, I hope you have a lovely, blessed weekend.

01:24:54.180 Happy Easter.

01:24:55.720 Happy Passover as well.

01:24:57.480 And don't forget to not eat meat and go to church this weekend and talk to your kids about

01:25:01.480 what we're actually celebrating, which is fun to sort of kick off with a bunny, but isn't

01:25:06.440 ultimately about her.

01:25:09.320 Um, so anyway, I'll be thinking about you and I'll talk to you on Monday.

01:25:13.260 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show.

01:25:15.280 No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

01:25:20.460 The Megan Kelly show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures. 0.56

01:25:31.480 Wait a while.

01:25:33.520 Nooa.

01:25:34.660 I'll talk to you on the same way.

01:25:35.420 Bye.

01:25:36.160 Bye.

01:25:41.020 Bye.

01:25:43.240 Bye.

01:25:45.840 Bye.

01:25:46.320 Bye.

01:25:47.860 Bye.

01:25:48.420 Bye.

01:25:48.780 Bye.

01:25:51.420 Bye.

01:25:52.320 Bye.

01:25:52.340 Bye.

01:25:59.340 Bye.

The Megyn Kelly Show - April 02, 2021

Jordan Peterson on Radical Honesty, Raising Kids, and Getting Your House in Order ｜ Ep. 84

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