The Megyn Kelly Show - Judge Graf Shows ZERO Confidence Despite MOUNTAINS of Evidence in Tyler Robinson Hearing, Lance Twiggs DOWNPLAYS His ＂Trans＂ Identity, w⧸ Aronberg, Frei, Eiglarsh, Murphy & Spilbor ｜ Ep. 1357

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00:00:56.640 connexontario.ca. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at

00:01:03.100 New East. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. It's day five of the

00:01:13.960 Tyler Robinson hearing. A forensic expert is expected to take the stand for the defense today,

00:01:19.120 the last witness we expect of this hearing it's supposed to wrap up early this afternoon

00:01:24.900 unfortunately we will not be getting a decision today on the obvious conclusion that there is

00:01:30.080 probable cause to hold tyler robinson over to trial in the case of charlie kirk's assassination

00:01:36.180 i mean honestly despite the mountain of evidence against this is a joke that judge tony graff is

00:01:41.000 indulging this i'm sorry he's judge ito i'm over this guy completely he has no confidence he seems

00:01:47.520 feckless up there. He seems like he's terrified to make a decision. This is honestly absurd.

00:01:54.660 Like grow a pair judge. If you're going to be on the bench in criminal cases, you're going to have

00:01:59.140 to learn how to say objection overruled or I'll take it under advisement. But for now, this is

00:02:05.120 my ruling. Like everything's got to be briefed. Everything needs a pause. Everything he needs

00:02:10.060 to consider behind the scenes. I'm sure he's got some law clerk back there who he's like,

00:02:15.080 hey, what should I do? Or he calls a senior judge and he's like, what should I do about this?

00:02:19.440 I can't believe this guy was a prosecutor and he has this little confidence to rule from the bench.

00:02:26.020 Grow a pair, Judge Graff. It only gets more difficult from here. This is a preliminary

00:02:31.060 hearing. This is an easy case. It only gets tougher as we go to trial. What we have spent

00:02:37.320 the morning arguing over is whether a two-second airing of Tyler Robinson's note to Lance Twiggs

00:02:47.620 that was under the keyboard in Tyler's room on the night of the murder that he directed him to

00:02:54.500 by that automatic text to Lance Twiggs' phone saying, look under my keyboard. We've seen the

00:03:00.360 full text of that in previous court hearings, court filings, I should say. It was no mystery,

00:03:06.660 Literally all that two second screen grab added was now we've seen Tyler Robinson's handwriting and the defense is melting down like somehow he was given a colonoscopy in open court yesterday. 0.91

00:03:20.140 This is ridiculous.

00:03:22.220 A more seasoned, serious judge would say, I understand there was a violation. 0.92

00:03:26.980 What's your proposed remedy?

00:03:28.740 No.

00:03:29.780 Or this is what I think we should do.

00:03:32.160 Like he's had he's heard argument. 0.99

00:03:34.900 He said he was tossing and turning all last night thinking about the fact that this fucking thing. 0.99

00:03:39.680 First of all, we have a right to see the evidence. 0.99

00:03:43.200 Evidence is not secret.

00:03:45.440 He works for us.

00:03:46.640 Judge Graff works for us.

00:03:48.340 The public defenders are on our dime.

00:03:50.840 The people of Utah are paying for this entire proceeding.

00:03:54.380 Evidence is not secret.

00:03:58.000 We're just treating this like it can't be shown because otherwise Tyler Robinson's constitutional rights are going to be violated.

00:04:04.900 What are you talking about? It's evidence in a hearing, in a public court case.

00:04:10.000 OK, so like they've, I would argue, unfairly clipped the media's right to see all of the

00:04:18.360 evidence, arguing that it's somehow unfairly prejudicial to Tyler Robinson for the public

00:04:23.800 to see the actual proof of this case, which has already been out there in repeated different

00:04:28.780 forms. This is all just a legal subterfuge. This is bullshit. All right. But that's how

00:04:34.360 they spent the morning. Now we have to take a break so that the judge can really rend garments

00:04:39.640 trying to figure out what he's going to do to preserve Tyler Robinson's constitutional right

00:04:45.060 for us. What? Not to see his handwriting? It's what we call harmless error, Judge Grass. Stay

00:04:51.520 with me. It's called harmless error. Move on. Be a grownup. Issue a ruling. Use those two words

00:05:00.460 and get down to the business of hearing actual evidence,

00:05:04.300 which is the defense's forensic expert, 0.99

00:05:07.100 which is important, unlike this bullshit. 0.98

00:05:11.240 So now, instead of saying at the end of this thing, 0.98

00:05:14.400 we're on day five,

00:05:15.260 today what they had planned on doing

00:05:17.260 was having oral arguments and like closing arguments.

00:05:21.260 And then the judge would say,

00:05:22.400 there's probable cause to hold Tyler Robinson over

00:05:25.440 and schedule a trial date.

00:05:26.980 instead yesterday the defense which only has one goal they they understand that their client's

00:05:35.380 goose is cooked so they just want to delay everything because it's the death penalty

00:05:39.840 case i get it smart smart on their part it's up to the judge to keep things moving and to not allow

00:05:45.880 unreasonable delay and the the defense said oh we've no no we can't have a ruling we got to brief

00:05:50.900 this whole thing before you issue a ruling on whether there's probable cause we got to brief

00:05:54.560 this thing out. You know, we got to put pen to paper. No, we don't. We don't. Not everything

00:06:00.480 requires a brief. This doesn't require a brief at all. Anybody with two eyes and two ears can see

00:06:05.440 what's going to happen here. And this judge knows full well what's going to happen here. And again,

00:06:10.140 if he had more confidence, he would say, with all due respect, sir, that's not necessary.

00:06:14.700 I'm going to rule tomorrow. So we are having closing arguments tomorrow. Nope. He had to

00:06:20.720 indulge. So, I mean, okay. So now we are having briefs filed on whether there is probable cause

00:06:30.660 to hold Tyler Robinson over for a trial. And that briefing schedule is going to play out

00:06:36.720 over the summer with now oral arguments on it scheduled for September 1st. Okay.

00:06:44.540 after the summer's over. That means we might not know. We might we might not know whether his

00:06:51.960 Charlie's accused killer is going to go to jail. Or sorry, going to go to trial until a full year

00:06:58.560 after Charlie's death. This it's far more simple than this. Honestly, this is unbelievable what

00:07:04.000 this judge is doing. You're you're given serious Judge Ito vibes, Judge Graff. Get it together.

00:07:10.620 You are steps away from seeing the dancing Itos take over one of the nighttime shows, only they'll be called the dancing graphs.

00:07:21.000 And people might add a T to the end of your name if you don't get it together, because they're going to start to mock you.

00:07:26.080 Trust me.

00:07:27.120 What the general public is starting to get that you seem feckless.

00:07:31.300 You seem scared and you don't seem like you've ever been in a courtroom before, even though I know you have.

00:07:37.640 We're going to take you live into this courtroom.

00:07:40.540 As the news warrants, they do a lot of preliminary stuff that's not that interesting, and then

00:07:45.200 they get to the substance, and when they do that, we'll dip in.

00:07:48.360 In the meantime, you can watch the entire hearing uninterrupted on youtube.com slash

00:07:52.520 Megan Kelly.

00:07:53.860 Okay, before we dig into the action in court, both what happened yesterday after we signed

00:07:58.520 off and this morning, we want to take a look at what we learned yesterday.

00:08:02.420 Utah State Bureau of Investigation Sergeant Jennifer Falmoina. She was back on the stand.

00:08:13.300 This is the woman who's like really kind of running herd on the evidence. And we saw for 0.91

00:08:19.460 the first time through her, those infamous engravings on the bullet rounds found in the

00:08:27.000 rifle i mean it was somewhat jarring i have to say it was somewhat jarring to see like we knew

00:08:32.240 it was on them because the the feds had released that and um just as you see bullet casing after

00:08:39.360 bullet casing and you know this guy engraved these words imagining killing our friend it's just

00:08:45.580 chilling and disgusting um but we'll show them to you okay first first we'll show you a little

00:08:51.320 bit of Falmoina discussing what's on the bullets. Watch. What are we looking at here in Exhibit 19?

00:08:59.580 This is the cartridge case that was recovered from the gun.

00:09:03.160 And what position was this in, in the gun? This was the, or this is what was in the chamber.

00:09:11.040 Okay. And the chamber meaning that's where a cartridge is before it's, or when it is fired,

00:09:17.740 correct? Yes. Do you notice an inscription or an etching on this cartridge case? Yes,

00:09:26.720 I do. Will you read what that says? Yes. Notice is bold. And if we can go down to page two of

00:09:33.580 the exhibit, will you read what this says? O-W-O, what? And page three? This. And question mark,

00:09:44.760 correct yes question mark what she was describing came from the cartridge that packaged the bullet

00:09:52.140 police say killed charlie kirk it was a little hard to see so we enhanced it and um you heard

00:10:01.440 her espouse that it reads notices bulge owo what's this that's notices bulge owo what's this

00:10:12.800 Now, if you are not part of the trans furry culture, you probably don't know what that means.

00:10:19.860 But the New York Post explains, quote, the engraving is a meme used in transgender and furry subculture, a reference to being surprised by genitalia when someone is dressed up in an animal costume or in drag.

00:10:35.440 Oh, I see a bulge. It's actually a man. It's not a woman named Luna.

00:10:41.680 it's actually a human it's not a dog oh I was fooled by your dog ears Lance Twiggs I'm sorry 0.59

00:10:51.500 like this is a this is a sick sick group this is like a whole other issue I mean it's connected 0.99

00:10:57.720 but it's a whole other issue how the left tries to normalize this shit like the schools are 1.00

00:11:02.220 allowing this they are allowing this at school they are allowing kids to go to school dressed 0.99

00:11:07.760 as quote furries with the ears and the tails. It's a mental illness that should not be indulged,

00:11:15.620 not least because of which it is potentially contagious. It is part of a social contagion.

00:11:21.780 I mean, it truly is akin to having the anorexic parade around to math class in her bikini and to 0.98

00:11:27.720 have people celebrate it like it's a valid choice. That's your choice. It's sick. All right. So that's 0.96

00:11:35.800 What he put on the bullet casing that he used to kill Charlie notices bulge.

00:11:44.900 I mean, it's coming together, obviously, that Tyler Robinson, who was dating Luna Twigs,

00:11:52.140 his alleged trans furry lover, was motivated by his hatred of Charlie Kirk's views on transgender

00:11:59.880 issues. 0.93

00:12:00.500 I mean, among other things, he describes him as hateful.

00:12:04.320 I assume the list is long, but the bullet tells the story.

00:12:10.040 In the video we saw in court yesterday, Lance, a.k.a. Luna Twiggs, admitted that he knew about Robinson's engravings.

00:12:19.340 He asks you here, remember how I was engraving bullets? Was he engraving bullets before this?

00:12:24.900 Yeah, I don't remember exactly when, but he had said he was planning to go hunting with his family.

00:12:31.080 and he asked me if we had a Dremel

00:12:35.360 because he said he wanted to create messages on bullets.

00:12:40.660 And I just told him where Dremel was

00:12:42.840 and I told him to make sure he doesn't set off a bullet

00:12:47.320 on accident in the house.

00:12:49.320 But I didn't really think about it until then.

00:12:52.280 How long before September 10th was this

00:12:56.220 that he asked about the Dremel?

00:12:58.720 I don't remember

00:13:00.080 because he'd been talking about the hunting-slash-camping trip for a couple months.

00:13:08.340 But I don't remember when he was specifically asking to engrave the bullets.

00:13:14.320 So are we talking like a year before?

00:13:16.540 Oh, no, not that long.

00:13:18.520 It would have been, I'd say at most, a month before this was when he was asking.

00:13:24.120 It's all very relevant, obviously, because we're trying to figure out how long in advance of the murder

00:13:29.420 he decided to kill Charlie Kirk. And that's a month in advance, according to Twigs, that

00:13:35.560 Tyler Robinson is engraving these bullet casings with these messages. Notices bulges. There are

00:13:44.160 more. Hey, fascist. We'll go through them. You notice there in that testimonial, we only got 0.99

00:13:50.440 audio for portions of it. So in the audio clips, we've added just the still shot of Lance Twigs

00:13:57.240 and how he looked during this Q&A.

00:14:00.280 They showed us actual video of him

00:14:02.420 at the beginning of the Q&A yesterday

00:14:05.120 in that 13-minute video or however long it was.

00:14:08.460 And then it would go to black at some portions

00:14:11.140 that the prosecution was forced to fast forward through.

00:14:14.100 And for some of it, we saw nothing

00:14:16.520 because we were only allowed to have audio.

00:14:18.580 So we've added his picture so you can see him.

00:14:21.200 And you'll notice there that he is in a male suit.

00:14:23.700 He's in a regular male suit coat.

00:14:26.540 male's shirt, dress, you know, shirt and tie. He's got long hair down to his shoulders.

00:14:36.520 There's no ears as he's prone to wear. We've seen the pictures, Lance, and he's not appearing to

00:14:44.540 demonstrate his transgender identity. In fact, he appeared to downplay that throughout, which was

00:14:51.260 an interesting choice. I'd love to know more about this. Here he is talking about his conversations

00:14:55.840 with tyler robinson uh when it comes to the issues of politics and gender identity watch

00:15:02.680 um did you and he ever talk about politics um he did more than me uh i i didn't really still

00:15:11.880 don't really keep up with politics very much uh he'd usually talk about stuff he heard on the radio

00:15:18.680 on his drive to work in like their work car since it sounds like a their whole crew went went in the

00:15:23.960 same car most of the time but uh i wouldn't say super consistently because it wasn't a topic i

00:15:31.600 really contributed much on how about charlie kirk did you ever talk about charlie kirk i personally

00:15:37.520 had never heard him talk about charlie kirk before specifically okay um how about um

00:15:45.720 political issues so did you ever talk about gender identity issues and lgbtq rights

00:15:53.020 uh no not not really um uh usually if he did talk about politics stuff it was uh relating to trump

00:16:02.860 or current like policies being uh like issued or voted voted on i think but yeah

00:16:12.220 okay so before that you have been for a short time yes okay and um i understand you're going

00:16:20.900 by Luna at some point? To some people, yeah, but not as an overall thing. What? Okay. He doesn't

00:16:31.060 go by Luna as an overall thing. Tyler certainly called him Luna. That we saw with our own eyes.

00:16:40.280 Back to that note that Tyler Robinson wrote to Lance Twiggs and left it under Tyler's own

00:16:47.960 keyboard in front of his computer in his bedroom. And again, he alerted Lance Twiggs to go check

00:16:55.040 under that keyboard at 11 p.m. the night of the shooting, saying, go check under my keyboard.

00:17:01.240 In that note, which was accidentally shown by the court proceedings yesterday, he addresses

00:17:10.940 he addresses lance twigs as luna so tyler robinson clearly called him luna it's like

00:17:20.140 these people were sick you know they're sick it's what viva said yesterday on the program 0.99

00:17:25.700 these sick losers sat in their disgusting apartment together where again lance was 1.00

00:17:33.900 reportedly engaging in making mold uh experiments trying to grow grow mold spores that were all over 1.00

00:17:40.920 the apartment, not to mention weird experiments with like a whisk with tinfoil placed in water.

00:17:46.300 What would it grow? And not to mention, he described Luna as consuming near alcoholic

00:17:52.780 levels of alcohol and Tyler sitting on the couch engraving bullets, talking about his upcoming

00:17:59.580 hunting trip as he writes, hey, fascist on his bullet casing and notices bulges and plotting

00:18:07.620 the murder of one of the most prominent, special, brilliant, kind, loving Christian Americans

00:18:16.120 we had.

00:18:19.280 And now we have to argue about what the two second reveal of Tyler's handwriting should

00:18:26.560 cost the prosecution and or the press in the context of this case.

00:18:32.160 We're getting a better feel for what the defense wants.

00:18:34.740 I'll tell you that when I finish this.

00:18:36.300 now the court filings again have revealed the text of this letter before in its entirety

00:18:43.260 but here it is for the first time in robinson's handwriting it's out there and we are going to 0.79

00:18:49.340 show it to you and there's a fucking no prejudice this is guy and showing it to you sorry here i go 0.89

00:18:53.360 luna if you are reading this per my text then i am so sorry i left the house this morning on a 0.96

00:18:59.960 mission and set an auto text. I am likely dead or facing a lengthy prison sentence. I had the

00:19:07.520 opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I took it. I don't know if I will have succeeded, but I

00:19:15.280 had hoped to make it home to you. I wish we could have lived in a world where this did not feel

00:19:20.940 necessary. I wish I could have stayed for you and lived our lives together. I lack the words to

00:19:27.240 express how much I love you and how very much you mean to me. Please try and find joy in this life.

00:19:32.980 I love you always, Tyler, unquote. I mean, it's so bizarre. He loved him so much that he was

00:19:40.460 going to deprive his love from Luna's partner, Tyler, for the rest of Luna's life.

00:19:49.700 He loved him so much that he had to murder another person for him. Oh, that's true love. I mean,

00:19:53.840 like, think of the sick mind, the sick mind. The question is, why is Lance Twiggs trying now to 0.88

00:20:01.240 downplay his trans identity? Is it because there's something to all the messages we saw online where

00:20:06.360 it seemed members of the trans community had foreknowledge of Charlie's murder? Does he have 0.66

00:20:12.260 reason to downplay that connection of his? For example, on X, an account called Mushy with the

00:20:21.780 handle at Tally Hall album wrote on September 3rd, quote, it'd be funny if someone like Charlie

00:20:27.240 Kirk got shot on September 10th, LMAO, unquote. Then on September 11th, the day after he was

00:20:33.940 shot, the account posted, did it? I mean, it posted, did I, but obviously they were missing

00:20:39.520 the T. Another account, a person who goes by Osamu bin Tezuka five days before the shooting

00:20:46.140 on September 5th, wrote, quote, you guys, I have something big coming soon. Just be sure to check

00:20:52.100 the news. You'll know when you see it with an emoji giving a wink. Then on the day of Charlie's

00:20:57.880 murder at 4.52 p.m., the account posted, well, that's that. Another chud bites the dust, unquote.

00:21:05.540 And a reported online friend of Twigs. So there's an actual connection here who goes by

00:21:12.480 churbum 75 wrote charlie kirk deserved that shit let it die let it die with a photo of charlie 0.99

00:21:21.600 and then we fucking did it we fucking did it with a photo of kirk unquote seems like that's 0.99

00:21:30.540 something we might want to investigate we asked fbi director cash patel about this exact issue 0.95

00:21:36.680 on december 5th of 2025 you can find the whole interview on episode 1207 of the mk show watch

00:21:44.540 there were texts by certain trans individuals online before the assassination talking about

00:21:50.960 something big is going to be happening and then after he was killed saying and there it is

00:21:55.060 leading many of us to wonder whether there was some sort of trans tifa connection

00:21:59.060 to the murder um or at least maybe some tip-off to the community is that under investigation that

00:22:04.820 is most definitely under investigation and we've disclosed a lot of that to the prosecution or all

00:22:09.180 of it that we have and they've made some of it public to include that he was in a relationship

00:22:14.280 with an individual who was part of a part of that community and that he was engaged in

00:22:19.880 communications with other individuals in that community but as to how they relate to the

00:22:23.760 prosecution that's up to the utah prosecutors to say we need this in court and we're going to hold

00:22:28.620 it till we release it, till his trial. Okay. So there you hear it. Most definitely under

00:22:34.460 investigation. We disclosed it all to the prosecutors as to how they relate to the

00:22:40.320 prosecution. That's up to them. I mean, it's somewhat unsatisfying. I'm going to be honest.

00:22:45.160 What does that mean? Are you done investigating? You disclosed it all to the prosecution. What do

00:22:51.060 mean like the prosecution you're the fbi i mean i assume and believe that that investigation would

00:22:59.300 have continued at the fbi level or at a minimum at the state uh police level in utah what came of it

00:23:08.680 what came of it we still don't know we have no idea but it's very interesting now that luna

00:23:16.480 who saw tyler robinson engraving the bullets who lived with tyler robinson as he prepared for this

00:23:23.840 crime whose dna was on the towel in which the gun was wrapped whose dna was on the screwdriver used

00:23:31.760 on that rooftop according to police to assemble the gun uh and who did not call police even after

00:23:38.760 he was notified by tyler robinson that he had killed charlie and his main concern seemed to

00:23:43.820 be in the text exchanges. Stay safe. Watch out for yourself. Never called cops and appears to

00:23:49.520 have tried to delete all these texts and photos that were retrieved by police thanks to police

00:23:55.120 software. It appears that he may have a motive of his own for suddenly showing up as Lance

00:24:04.760 and downplaying his breasts and his new name and his obvious presence in the trans and furry

00:24:13.200 communities. Joining me now for Reaction are Dave Ehrenberg, host of the MK True Crime Show

00:24:18.560 on our MK Media Podcast Network, and Viva Fry. He's former litigator and Rumble creator.

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00:25:36.360 Megan, or don't forget to use that code Megan at checkout guys. Welcome back. Um, Viva, what do you

00:25:43.360 make of that? Like it is pretty surprising that this guy with this long hair, but as you are

00:25:50.260 proving right now, you can have long hair and not be trans or a furry, um, made a point of saying,

00:25:58.820 oh, he never discussed LGBTQ or trans issues with Tyler. I don't believe that he was growing

00:26:04.940 breasts and taking HRT, according to Turkey Tom, our YouTuber yesterday, and that he never discussed

00:26:12.260 this with Tyler. And also, oh, just Luna. It was just an occasional thing. There's two things going

00:26:18.040 on here. One is what Lance Twiggs said in his video statement for the purposes of a preliminary

00:26:23.100 hearing for probable cause and to whether or not lance is lying has reason to lie uh or as part of

00:26:29.680 the broader conspiracy i've been fighting with people online just as pure matters of fact where

00:26:34.120 people say you know lance never identified uh tyler robinson and i play them the clip where he

00:26:41.120 says literally the last two photos look like tyler robinson that you might think he's a liar

00:26:46.080 and he might very well be lying and i do think he's lying about the fact that they never discussed

00:26:51.140 politics there's nobody on earth at this point in time who doesn't discuss politics let alone

00:26:55.880 people heavily involved in one of the key demographics of heated political debate there's

00:27:02.360 zero chance of that so whether or not he's lying and it comes out at trial for the time being the

00:27:07.300 question everybody has to ask themselves is what did tyler robinson say and is it sufficient for

00:27:11.980 the purposes of a finding of probable cause and okay like you say it's a foregone conclusion

00:27:17.240 the damage that the judge might be doing with this belabored drawn out process is de facto

00:27:24.080 converting preliminary hearings into trials on the merits if not as a matter of law just as a

00:27:28.600 matter of public reality people are looking at this and thinking it's a trial on the merits

00:27:32.800 and if this is the new precedent going forward that this judge sets I mean everybody's gonna

00:27:37.220 have a field day in these preliminary hearings by virtue of the fact that now they get to claim

00:27:41.200 five days adversarial hearings and you know effectively convert it into a trial on the

00:27:45.920 merits but bottom line i don't believe tyler uh i don't believe lance twiggs in everything he's

00:27:51.220 saying i when cash patel comes out on your show and says that's a wishy-washy answer passing the

00:27:57.840 buck in terms of whether or not the people who posted in advance are being investigated well

00:28:02.480 we've given them no you're the fbi there's a federal element to this and if you're not doing

00:28:07.040 it tell us concretely who is and what's been done since because as of now nothing and not that

00:28:13.280 anybody would even believe what Kash Patel has to say at this point in time because people are

00:28:16.720 still angry with him and rightly so for saying he believes Epstein killed himself. That answer

00:28:21.120 wasn't even a categoric statement to be disbelieved. It was a wishy-washy passing of the buck. And

00:28:27.280 right now, despite all of that evidence of people with advanced knowledge, we've got nothing in

00:28:31.340 terms of anyone else who may have been involved. Dave, your thoughts? Yeah. When you're talking

00:28:38.520 about lance twigs he had that relationship with tyler robinson that was romantic and very close

00:28:45.620 and it's hard to believe that they didn't talk about gender issues lgbtq rights i mean it's

00:28:51.300 that is hard i'm just trying to figure out why he wouldn't fess up to that why would he lie about

00:28:56.660 that the only thing i could think of is perhaps to try to minimize his role and his knowledge

00:29:01.540 in advance that's the only thing but i don't think it moves the needle on who did it here

00:29:06.640 I do think that Lance Schwiggs' testimony, from what I saw, was credible.

00:29:11.020 I do think it's possible that he knows more than he lets on.

00:29:14.180 But to me, the testimony is credible that we've got the guy who did it, the evidence is overwhelming, and there's no other outside actors involved.

00:29:22.340 Dave, what do you make of this ridiculousness over showing the letter for two seconds?

00:29:30.400 I'm going to show you what we're arguing over.

00:29:32.040 OK, this is Sergeant Jen Faumouina, who's on the stand and they're showing us, you know, some exhibits can be shown to the general public and some cannot.

00:29:42.240 And for two seconds, the actual letter from Tyler to Lance was shown.

00:29:48.160 Here it is. Sat. Fifty nine.

00:29:49.780 The part that I'm pointing out is the paper that you can kind of you can still see the lines in them and.

00:29:56.920 as well as some handwriting as well to the edge,

00:30:01.580 to the left edge of that piece of paper.

00:30:04.420 All right.

00:30:08.860 Have you also observed the image of a note

00:30:15.040 that was recovered from last Twig's phone?

00:30:17.600 Yes.

00:30:19.140 And I'd like to show you side-by-side,

00:30:23.840 Exhibit 24.

00:30:26.920 and there on the left you see exhibit that was it there on the left we see exhibit 24 do you see

00:30:34.720 that yes i do and on the right you see excuse me on the right it's 24 on the left it's 16 let me

00:30:41.260 stop you mr mcbride i'm not sure is this being broadcast let's let's take that down

00:30:45.820 the horror so i know obviously what the prosecutor was trying to do is show here's the burned

00:30:54.340 remnants of the letter that you found in the kitchen trash can. And here's the original letter,

00:30:59.360 the contents of which are not private. And in fact, have been made public in their entirety

00:31:03.260 prior to this in an earlier filing. The only thing that was added, Dave, was we saw the handwriting.

00:31:09.320 Heavens to Betsy, we saw the handwriting. I mean, you know, with my background as a prosecutor,

00:31:14.000 how I'm going to feel about this. I mean, big deal. At worst, it's what you said, harmless error.

00:31:19.440 It shouldn't have any impact. And I know the defense is going to scream about it because

00:31:23.060 As I said, this is prejudicing the future jury pool here.

00:31:26.820 Well, OK, I mean, you're going to be able to ask them questions to ferret out people who have already drawn a conclusion.

00:31:33.480 And also, future jurors are not expected to be blank slates or empty vessels.

00:31:38.140 They're going to hear about it. They're going to know about it.

00:31:39.680 They just have to be able to say that they're going to put aside everything they've heard and know and just follow the evidence in the law.

00:31:45.480 This is much to do about nothing. They're already allowed to discuss the confessions.

00:31:49.120 And by the way, there's like been like five confessions by Tyler Robinson.

00:31:53.380 Yes. Right. They're allowed to discuss literally.

00:31:55.080 So they showed a couple seconds of his actual handwriting with one of his confessions.

00:31:58.500 OK, not a big deal. Well, it was literally five confessions.

00:32:02.780 We talked about this yesterday. One via text to Lance Twiggs, one in the letter to Lance Twiggs, one in person to Lance Twiggs.

00:32:12.420 As Lance Twiggs testified to all three of those yesterday, one to his parents before he got turned in.

00:32:19.120 And there was a discord, the discord, the disc and then one on discord.

00:32:23.720 Exactly.

00:32:24.200 The hour before he turned himself in.

00:32:26.080 Go ahead, Viva, because right now the defense is arguing that the consequence as a result

00:32:32.420 of this two second showing of the thing that whose contents we already knew about should

00:32:36.660 be that the media should be kicked out and there should be no more public airing of any

00:32:41.420 exhibits or anything inside of this.

00:32:43.420 Well, look, defense is going to defense and lawyers are going to lawyer.

00:32:46.780 and there's a reason why people hate lawyers because they will make a mountain out of a molehill

00:32:50.920 two seconds let's be honest is an eternity on the internet it's out there forever for an eternity

00:32:55.920 it's never being stuffed back in the uh in the in the toothpaste not just what's the prejudice

00:33:01.920 there's a prejudice in not publicly showing it because what you're going to have are people out

00:33:06.580 there if they don't believe tyler robinson did it are going to say they're not showing it to us

00:33:10.700 because we will be able to see that it's not his handwriting and that therefore they can't disclose

00:33:15.740 it to us because we as internet sleuths would determine that it's a fake note written by

00:33:19.680 somebody else because it doesn't match tyler robinson's handwriting there is zero prejudicial

00:33:24.620 impact that this could possibly have on tyler robinson if anything you know the defense should

00:33:29.100 want it to be released so the internet can go have at it and say oh that's not his handwriting he

00:33:33.280 dots his eyes in another way on another letter here that's what the defense would want to do

00:33:36.760 ordinarily but they will also certainly want to make you know the biggest issue they can out of

00:33:42.680 this mistake, as innocuous as it was, because that's their job here. But no, I say again,

00:33:47.500 the judge is not doing a service to the public by blocking certain things. We know what was in the

00:33:52.860 letter. Do we care about a Tyler Robinson's handwriting only if you think it's not his

00:33:57.740 handwriting? Right. Which I haven't heard the defense assert or anybody assert. You know what

00:34:02.660 this is reminding me of you guys? I'm sure you guys have been watching some of the World Cup,

00:34:06.320 as have we, even though I'm not really a sports person, but it's fun to watch these games.

00:34:09.840 and when they the fake injuries are so beyond where they they roll and they're like oh my god

00:34:17.540 and they all completely overplay their alleged injury and then literally two seconds later

00:34:22.300 they're up and they're smiling and they're running when nobody pays attention to them

00:34:25.240 the way we all do with like our three-year-old who's overplaying a fake injury you know you're

00:34:28.700 like you ignore ignore don't reinforce this bad behavior and then they're back up and they're

00:34:32.380 playing they're totally fine we all know they were just faking hoping to get somebody else in

00:34:35.400 trouble. That's what the defense is doing here. Oh, the alleged, oh, the outrage, the injury to

00:34:41.500 our clients, it's beyond the pale. And what I really want as a remedy is the thing I've been

00:34:46.560 begging you for all along, which is to remove all media access to these hearings, including he's

00:34:51.920 arguing the cameras should go. He wants all the cameras to go. He does not want this to be broadcast

00:34:55.420 at all. Why is that, Dave? Why doesn't the defense lawyer want cameras in there?

00:35:00.020 Because conspiracy theories help the defense. All the people talking garbage on the internet 0.99

00:35:05.120 that works to the benefit of the defense. 0.97

00:35:07.440 You just get one of those jurors

00:35:09.020 who's been influenced by the conspiracy theories

00:35:11.060 on the internet in the jury pool,

00:35:13.000 and that's a hung jury.

00:35:14.300 You get 12, and that's an acquittal.

00:35:16.520 That's why they don't want cameras in the courtroom.

00:35:18.400 They don't want transparency.

00:35:19.580 But let's go back to Duke La Crosse 2006,

00:35:23.820 the fakest of the fake allegations

00:35:26.220 to hit in recent history.

00:35:27.940 And those three boys were actually accused

00:35:29.960 and actually charged with raping Crystal Mangum,

00:35:32.320 the accuser, who was a stripper in Durham,

00:35:34.620 uh, North Carolina who accused these three Duke lacrosse players with completely baselessly.

00:35:38.860 Those three boys would have loved, loved cameras in the courtroom Viva that at every turn they made

00:35:46.580 the defensive evidence they had public through reporters like me. I was there like they want,

00:35:52.800 they wanted as much sunlight on that case as possible because they knew that the more evidence

00:35:57.820 came out, the more it would benefit them. It's very telling to me that this defense lawyer

00:36:02.400 is so afraid of the public seeing one minute of these proceedings it's the old you know the three

00:36:09.940 things cannot long be hidden the truth the sun the moon and the truth the innocent love exposure

00:36:14.700 and the guilty love uh concealment it's it's just a rule of nature because the innocent have nothing

00:36:20.400 to hide and the guilty do have something to hide it it should have been it should be broadcast in

00:36:26.380 its entirety uh saving except for like you know social security numbers addresses but if this

00:36:31.760 were not broadcast to the public what you would have is you have a conspiracy theorist delight

00:36:37.020 it would be the best thing ever for the defense for example today you would have people running

00:36:41.640 around saying i heard the bullets were full metal jackets and those should have gone through charlie

00:36:45.880 and it makes no sense that it didn't whereas because you have internet sleuths out there

00:36:49.860 who look at the bullets and say oh these look like soft point remingtons which are designed

00:36:54.120 designed to expand on impact and we wouldn't have that but for the fact that this has been

00:36:59.080 televised and scrutinized by the aggregate knowledge of the Internet. But it's obvious,

00:37:03.560 you know, not televised under the dead of night in the darkness benefits the guilty. It benefits

00:37:09.420 those with something to hide. And these are supposed to be public court proceedings. This

00:37:12.480 is among the most monumental, politically relevant prosecutions in recent history,

00:37:17.920 if not in history. It needs to be broadcast to the fullest extent possible.

00:37:23.480 And now we have a ruling from the judge who, you know, must have consulted with a more senior

00:37:27.480 jurist behind the stage and come up with a ruling. This is what he's ruled. This is per

00:37:33.440 Nate Eaton, a reporter who's been covering this with, what's he with? I don't know. He's got his

00:37:39.540 own independent news coverage and he's been covering this trial. East Idaho News. Okay.

00:37:44.580 I don't know what that is, but if that's his or not. But in any event, this is what he reports

00:37:48.400 that Judge Graff says his order prohibiting broadcast of the exhibit by media cameras was

00:37:54.320 violated. Everyone agreed it was. He denies the defense's request to remove cameras, but says the

00:38:00.480 cameras cannot capture any exhibits today during the hearing. This is ridiculous. And then he 0.78

00:38:09.060 refused to make a decision on cameras for the September 1st hearing where they're going to be

00:38:15.100 arguing closings. Dave, this is Judge Graff. He likes to give each side a little something.

00:38:21.520 Remember when the defense said the prosecutors spoke out, they released a statement to TMZ about the ballistics, sanctioned them.

00:38:28.780 And I was like, no way they're going to be sanctioned for that.

00:38:31.540 And the judge said, yes, I'm going to hold them in contempt.

00:38:34.280 But really, there's no penalty.

00:38:35.660 We're not going to take the death penalty off the table.

00:38:37.700 So he likes to split the baby.

00:38:39.600 And I think that's what he's doing here.

00:38:41.240 But he shouldn't even even pretend to be open to do removing cameras in the courtroom at the later hearing.

00:38:47.640 That only helps conspiracy theorists.

00:38:50.460 you do not want to do something that's going to make people believe that up is down and down is

00:38:56.000 up. You know, Viva, the rule in Utah is you have to get permission for cameras in the courtroom,

00:39:02.700 but there is a presumption that they belong. There's a presumption that the public is entitled

00:39:07.320 to watch these proceedings take place for it all to be aired, you know, consistent with the sunlight

00:39:14.460 being the best disinfectant theory. And this judge even indulging the fiction that two seconds

00:39:21.880 of seeing Tyler Robinson's actual handwriting result should result in a penalty to the public.

00:39:27.820 We're the ones who are about to be punished as well as the prosecution, because showing the

00:39:32.520 exhibits helps them. Maybe today it hurts the defense, too, because it's their witness who's

00:39:36.360 going to be on testifying. Is it to engage in nuttery? This is nuttery. Well, it's a it's

00:39:43.540 convenient so now today we won't the public won't get to view the exhibits whereas had that been the

00:39:48.860 case yesterday hypothetically we did not see the video of lance twigs testifying well it certainly

00:39:54.840 put into perspective the he she luna debate i had never heard lance speak until that video

00:40:01.180 and looking at a guy with a voice deeper than mine uh in the context of all the hoopla that

00:40:06.480 had been made around his his gender identity it put things in perspective the bullet is another

00:40:11.760 example. If the public doesn't see that bullet, they are going to be misled by people out there

00:40:15.760 referring to it falsely as a full metal jacket, whatever. But, you know, people are going to take

00:40:20.820 issue with the fact that you will say it hurts Erica Kirk, this process, you know, they're going

00:40:25.100 to deny justice to Charlie, you know, as if to say Tyler's guilty. And so therefore his rights

00:40:30.860 don't matter. It's going to prejudice everybody, including Tyler, including the defendant, because

00:40:36.160 it prejudices the process itself. And when people don't have faith in the legitimacy and validity

00:40:41.240 of the process, defense or prosecution, it does an injustice to everybody as a whole.

00:40:45.940 The idea to change the rules midstream now for the last day, what are we not going to

00:40:50.760 see today?

00:40:51.540 What conspiracy theories is it going to create?

00:40:54.000 Who's going to think that it was acted against their interests and rights?

00:40:58.180 Everybody. 1.00

00:40:59.040 So it's an idiotic ruling. 1.00

00:41:00.420 When you split the baby, you kill the baby. 1.00

00:41:02.700 So congrats, Judge. 1.00

00:41:03.700 You killed the baby. 0.97

00:41:05.540 Yeah, exactly.

00:41:06.660 Now, speaking of Erica Kirk, there was an outrageous moment yesterday which escaped our notice where one of the defense lawyers, his name, his last name is Bert, first name Michael, Michael Bert.

00:41:19.540 This is the guy who represented Lyle Menendez, one of the Menendez brothers during the 1993 trial in which the jury deadlocked on whether Lyle was guilty of murder for killing his parents.

00:41:29.100 He also represented the man known as the Olympic Park bomber, Eric Robert Rudolph, who was convicted of killing one person and injuring over 100 others by planting a pipe bomb at the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta, among many others.

00:41:42.660 He worked for the San Francisco Public Defender's Office for 24 years.

00:41:46.220 OK, San Francisco Public Defender.

00:41:48.740 My goodness.

00:41:49.900 OK.

00:41:51.320 This guy is on Tyler Robinson's court appointed defense team.

00:41:56.900 And he got up there because Erica and not just Erica, the Kirk family have a representative.

00:42:05.560 They have a lawyer in there to stand up for their rights as the victim, because Utah has specifically written a law protecting the victim's rights and affording them the right to be present at all proceedings, among other rights.

00:42:18.000 and they were arguing that the unwillingness to show the evidence that was being displayed in

00:42:23.340 court to the family members, to Charlie's mother, to Charlie's widow and so on, was violating their

00:42:30.280 right to be present for the proceedings. What does it mean to be present if you can't see the

00:42:34.840 evidence being shown? So they got up and they made an argument. And then this guy, this Michael

00:42:41.640 Burke, sorry, Burt, like Burt and Ernie, gets up there and launches an attack on Erica Kirk,

00:42:49.560 which was completely, by the way, unsupported by the facts. But here he is.

00:42:54.340 As the court knows, we have witnessed availability problems. We spent the bulk of today and yesterday

00:43:00.240 arguing about nothing to do with the evidence in the case, but with rights of third parties.

00:43:07.940 And it's appropriate for the court to consider that.

00:43:10.800 But at some point, I think the court has to return to the purpose of these hearings, which is to expeditiously hear the evidence and then determine probable cause.

00:43:22.820 And I want to point out to the court, Ms. Kirk has been very adept at holding press conferences at which she has revealed evidence.

00:43:30.620 She has represented that the state is her attorney.

00:43:35.020 She has access to all the evidence that the state has publicized and that the media and her own lawyer argues is already in the public domain.

00:43:46.560 So they're perfectly free to go outside this courtroom under the court's protective order.

00:43:52.860 They're free to go out and hold press conferences and announce to the world outside the courtroom what they think the evidence is.

00:44:01.420 Unbelievable.

00:44:03.040 Erica Kirk has not held any press conferences.

00:44:06.960 She's made certain media appearances on podcasts and so on.

00:44:10.620 Maybe that's what he's referring to, but she has not held a press conference.

00:44:14.620 And not that I recall, not that my team could find either.

00:44:18.080 And she's revealed evidence.

00:44:20.640 No, she hasn't.

00:44:21.760 She's talked about the evidence that's already in the public domain at times, just like we

00:44:26.120 all have.

00:44:26.720 Wait, she hasn't revealed.

00:44:27.740 He's trying to make it sound like, oh, she was trusted once and she blew it.

00:44:32.060 judge like she got out there and she lifted the dress up. That's bullshit. She's talked 1.00

00:44:36.140 here and there, I think, about the evidence against Tyler Robinson, Dave, but not revealed

00:44:43.000 evidence. She has all the evidence that the prosecution has. He says that's not true either.

00:44:47.560 Her their family lawyer got up there immediately after and said that isn't true. The prosecution

00:44:52.800 has not shared all of its evidence with us. These are lies. So what's up with this defense attorney

00:44:58.580 launching an attack on the widow of the victim.

00:45:03.220 This is strategy, Megan, because Erica Kirk and the Kirk family,

00:45:06.620 they're advocating for transparency, for open access to evidence

00:45:10.460 because they fear the conspiracy theories and they want the world to see the reality of the crime.

00:45:15.520 And so what the defense is trying to do is to spin that into improper tainting of the jury pool

00:45:22.260 as trying to prejudice the future jury pool.

00:45:24.920 So they're trying to go after not just the Kirks, but transparency as a whole, saying transparency harms our class right to a fair trial.

00:45:33.440 And they can't really say that transparency is bad because everyone likes transparency.

00:45:37.960 So they're doing it in a way by saying Erica Kirk and the other side and the prosecutors, they're doing something untoward and improper.

00:45:46.120 It's strategy. And I don't think it's working.

00:45:48.360 i don't viva look i understand erica has become a controversial figure in america okay for all

00:45:57.080 sorts of reasons i have my own theory on why i realize that there's different factions who just

00:46:01.800 don't like her um my my own belief is it forget who's attacking her here there or on what basis

00:46:09.080 i think it's at base erica's problem with the pr to me is she's not charlie

00:46:15.280 she's taken over charlie's organization she didn't want to this was not her goal she would

00:46:21.480 much rather have her husband but she's not charlie and there's like an underlying resentment from

00:46:26.620 people whether they are conscious of the fact that they're blaming her for not being charlie or not

00:46:31.380 you know like they want charlie and whoever had stepped into the role of ceo of turning point

00:46:37.940 was going to face high levels of resentment because no one can be charlie you know and erica

00:46:44.480 then tried to honor his book tour commitments and so on and put herself out there at a time

00:46:49.520 when she was grieving. But people thought it showed an absence of heart around her husband's

00:46:54.640 death. And so I'm like, I get it all. I understand exactly how this went down. But my point is

00:46:58.380 simply it is different when you have defense counsel for the man accused of murdering her

00:47:04.480 husband stand up in court and try to make her the villain to the judge. Well, let's preface this by

00:47:12.760 saying he would be right if what he said were to be true so if all of the facts that he alleged

00:47:18.780 that they're going out there and themselves poisoning the jury pool if he's right on the

00:47:22.780 facts then he's right on the conclusion it would be improper the only problem is and i you know i

00:47:27.980 did my best to see what she said did she talk about any evidence that was not disclosed to

00:47:31.840 the public i've never heard a thing about it so he's wrong on the premises and therefore the

00:47:36.240 conclusion to which he came is equally wrong the only thing is you know you go back to joseph

00:47:40.320 gobel's propaganda techniques accuse your adversaries of doing what you are doing supposed

00:47:44.080 to create confusion the only people misrepresenting evidence to the general public is the defense

00:47:49.440 you know in respect of the the bullet not matching or the fragment not matching the

00:47:56.260 casing which was matter of fact false that required the prosecution to go out and clarify

00:48:00.580 the only people doing what that guy accused erica kirk of doing is the defense itself so

00:48:05.540 again par for the course there's a reason why people hate lawyers and there's a reason why

00:48:09.300 lawyers are hated. And that is part and parcel, at least one of the reasons.

00:48:14.260 Lowest, lowest of the low. You guys remember when you first went to law school,

00:48:18.780 maybe you thought as I was like, people are going to have to respect me if I become a lawyer. 1.00

00:48:24.040 What an idiot. Anyway, I want to show you one substantive moment yesterday that was 1.00

00:48:29.540 good for team defense. They called Samantha Karner, C-A-R-N-E-R, to talk about the evidence, 1.00

00:48:36.600 the forensic evidence that had been submitted by the prosecution and including the bullet fragments

00:48:41.580 in autopsy. Listen to what she said. Could you specify which of those possibilities

00:48:48.100 exists in this case? Was this a case where you had microscopic dissimilarity, but in your opinion,

00:48:56.560 it was insufficient to form a conclusion of source exclusion? No, my conclusion is inconclusive.

00:49:02.900 Just as it says in the appendix, there is a lack of sufficient agreement and sufficient disagreement,

00:49:08.320 so I'm unable to say one way or another.

00:49:10.580 Okay, but I guess my question is, were there points of dissimilarity between the question and the known bullets?

00:49:19.100 Again, there was sufficient agreement and sufficient, there was not sufficient agreement or sufficient disagreement.

00:49:25.040 So, yes, there was times that I saw agreement in the striations in the land and group impressions,

00:49:29.620 also seeing disagreement but there was also a lot of lack of microscopic marks of value to see at

00:49:36.080 all so because of this lack of quality and quantity of marks to be able to see it never

00:49:41.340 reached the threshold of sufficient agreement nor sufficient disagreement so an identification or

00:49:46.680 exclusion could not be rendered okay so she was an atf examiner and like a firearm and tool mark

00:49:54.540 examiner with about seven years of experience. And what she was saying was that she examined the

00:50:00.260 rifle, the four cartridges, the autopsy bullet fragments. She authored Exhibit 32 after examining

00:50:08.060 the rifle, the four cartridges, and autopsy bullet fragments and agreed that the DOJ reporting

00:50:13.180 standards do not permit claims of uniqueness, infallibility, or statistical certainty.

00:50:18.240 She's calling into question whether the bullet that was found in Charlie could ever be matched to what they believe was the murder weapon.

00:50:27.320 What did you make of it, Viva?

00:50:28.540 Well, I to the extent that we understand it's more often than not, you can't trace the bullet to the cartridge or definitively if it doesn't leave fingerprints on the projectile.

00:50:38.940 Again, I'm not an expert in any of this.

00:50:41.440 my understanding is that more often than not the bullet you know the piece that hits you is

00:50:46.920 fragmented otherwise you can't trace it to the actual cartridge itself okay so it's nothing out

00:50:51.800 of the ordinary to the extent and again probable cause we're trying to determine what the likely

00:50:56.540 cause of of death was to the extent they've identified it as a bullet tip i mean okay fine

00:51:02.320 defense will raise that we don't know where it came from so therefore that's your reasonable

00:51:05.720 doubt but at the probable cause again to the extent we've now concluded it was a bullet that

00:51:09.760 killed Charlie. It was fragmented into a number of pieces. Can't do a definitive trace back to

00:51:13.860 the frame. OK, that's a reasonable doubt. That's not the probable cause. We have everything else

00:51:17.980 that we need to get to the probable cause where we've got, you know, tenfold over what we need

00:51:22.280 to be. It is a preview of where the defense is going when this case gets to trial, which is

00:51:28.440 you can't conclusively prove that the bullet that was found in Charlie matched Tyler Robinson's

00:51:36.620 gun. They like that fact a lot for obvious reasons. It has not been able to be proved

00:51:41.500 to not be from that gun, but they couldn't affirmatively connect it. And if I were the

00:51:46.020 defense lawyer, I'd be hitting that too. Guys, thank you. Have a great weekend. Thanks for all

00:51:50.640 your hard work for us this week. We'll be right back with more. Running a business means you're

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00:53:35.880 Day five of the Tyler Robinson hearing is underway, trying to determine whether there is probable cause to hold him over for trial.

00:53:44.800 We're going to bring in our panel in a minute, but first, I want to just dip into the live court proceedings right now where the defense has put its third of three forensic expert on the stand.

00:53:56.120 She is testifying now, we believe, about, well, actually, I don't know what she's testifying about.

00:54:00.420 I just know she's a defense witness from the ATF.

00:54:02.960 Let's listen.

00:54:03.660 Do you agree with that?

00:54:04.720 Yes.

00:54:05.360 Explain that because that's a little above my pay grade in terms of understanding.

00:54:10.620 So a likelihood ratio statistic compares the probability of the DNA profile of the evidence given two competing hypotheses or two competing scenarios.

00:54:20.220 Typically, the first is that the person of interest is included, and then the exclusionary hypothesis would be that the person of interest is excluded, so there's a random unknown unrelated individual contributing.

00:54:33.500 And when they're elaborating on that point, they say a likelihood ratio indicates if, and to what extent, the DNA analysis results support one proposition over another, it is not possible on this basis alone to determine which is the most probable proposition.

00:54:57.080 Do you agree with that?

00:54:58.320 Yes.

00:54:59.400 Okay.

00:54:59.680 And then the next limitation they suggest you convey

00:55:04.400 Is that convey that DNA statistics cannot imply uniqueness within a population

00:55:11.280 Do you agree that that's a legitimate limitation?

00:55:15.040 Yes

00:55:15.300 And explain what that means

00:55:16.660 Does that go back to the issue of source?

00:55:21.320 You can't assign a source to a DNA sample?

00:55:24.840 Correct

00:55:25.200 it says you should delineate the meaning of a verbal qualifier but you didn't use one in this

00:55:33.720 case right correct okay we'll continue to monitor it but clearly what the defense is trying to do

00:55:39.200 is poke some holes in the dna evidence that was offered by the prosecution this week where they

00:55:45.000 had testimony that it was tyler robinson's 95 and lance twig's five percent dna on i believe those

00:55:54.940 of the percentages, but it was overwhelmingly Tyler's with a much smaller single digit percent

00:56:00.280 belonging to Lance Twiggs DNA on the towel that was wrapped around the firearm, which they found

00:56:05.860 in the woods, as well as on the screwdriver that was found on top of the roof, the low C center

00:56:13.940 from which the shot was taken, say prosecutors. And then they also, you know, swabbed Tyler and

00:56:20.880 Lance for that matter, but they swabbed Tyler and there was testimony that his, his DNA was

00:56:24.960 everywhere. It was all over the gun. It was all over the bullet casings and so on. So, I mean,

00:56:29.040 they, in addition to all the confessions and so on, they have his DNA all over what they say was

00:56:35.720 the murder weapon, the murder cartridges, and so on. Now they do have to close that loop by proving

00:56:40.940 those are the murder weapons and, you know, bullet casings that were used in this crime.

00:56:47.000 So there's that. But this is par for the course to have the defense lawyer come up there and chip away at how DNA is not an exact science and you can never really know.

00:56:56.380 And maybe the prosecution didn't do it quite right. And all of that will be fleshed out at trial and it will actually be very interesting to see what the defense does.

00:57:03.440 But it's not going to make any difference. There's way more evidence than they need to find probable cause here.

00:57:08.720 so it's mildly interesting, but it's not critical. In any event, let's bring in our panel,

00:57:13.840 Matt Murphy, who is co-host of In the Well, as well as Mark Eiglarsh and Jonna Spillabor. They

00:57:18.960 are co-hosts of Positively Legal. Those are all shows on our MK Media Podcast Network. You find

00:57:24.600 it, just search up MK True Crime as a podcast, and you'll get access to all of these shows.

00:57:30.060 You should definitely be listening, especially as things heat up this week legally. Guys,

00:57:35.440 thank you all for being here. So Matt, you've done more of these than anybody. The DNA testimony,

00:57:41.100 this is how it's done, right? Just chip away. I mean, I'm thinking of OJ, right? Like that's when

00:57:46.680 DNA analysis was still pretty new. I was in law school and I remember watching the OJ trial and

00:57:52.920 was it Barry Sheck who got out there and he was responsible. That's, that's your, this is your

00:57:57.560 jurisdiction out there in LA where you used to be. Um, it's just about chipping away, just the,

00:58:02.960 the confidence in it and the reliability of it, which is now in 2026, a much tougher task than it

00:58:09.640 was back in 1994. That's right. There's been so many advances, Megan, back when OJ, they did what's

00:58:15.080 called the RFLP, which was the old gel, the gel trays that was like, like first generation, you

00:58:21.260 know, we were all learning about forensic DNA. Now they use these things called co-filer and

00:58:25.820 profiler kits, um, where they basically, uh, it comes out on a graph and it's totally different.

00:58:31.540 In this case, there is, at least on the towel and screwdriver, it's known as a genetic mixture.

00:58:37.300 I don't know, Mark and John, if you guys have ever seen them do this,

00:58:40.620 I've never seen them put a percentage on major and minor contributors before like that.

00:58:46.980 I've done triple DNA mixtures, and I had an old lab, one of our lab supervisors, her name was Mary Hong.

00:58:55.260 She used to say, Megan, it's a dirty world.

00:58:57.280 And in the modern era, everything is so sensitive.

00:59:00.580 the equipment they use that you get a dna mixture on just about every swab it's it's almost becoming

00:59:06.740 rare that you'll have a single source dna unless they get it isolated from a sperm fraction or

00:59:11.660 something really um like one one source of blood but other other than that it's very common to see

00:59:18.780 this and you're exactly right he's just he's using the the parlance like they can't exclude a person

00:59:24.120 that's what the fbi protocols allow them to say and crime labs will allow them to say this person

00:59:29.100 can't be excluded, even if it's one in 17 quadrillion population frequency, which for

00:59:36.120 our purposes means he did it. And the prosecutor can say it's a match. The forensic scientists

00:59:41.260 won't. So this is performative. I don't know who this guy's talking to, really, because

00:59:46.100 this is just a prelim. The judge knows all this already. So, yeah, the judge is a former

00:59:51.540 prosecutor, so he really knows it. So basically what she's trying to say is you, Matt Murphy,

00:59:55.540 cannot be excluded. Mark, Mark, Iglars cannot be excluded. John and I, maybe, I don't know if

01:00:00.480 they can do, um, female versus male more easily, but that's basically what he said. Like, could,

01:00:05.340 it could have been anybody. That's what they're trying to say. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, we'll

01:00:10.600 see how effective that is. I do want to play you the soundbite. Uh, this is Amanda Baker breaking

01:00:15.140 down the Robinson and twigs DNA on the towel and the screwdriver that we were just referencing 0.70

01:00:19.940 SOT7. You stated, I believe, that the minor sample, the minor contributor was less than 20%

01:00:25.920 and that it was actually 5% and the ratio was 5% to 95%. For one of the samples, yes. Do you

01:00:33.140 remember that? Yes. Does that mean the 5% was from twigs and the 95%, that 95% is assumed from

01:00:42.160 From the defendant, the Robinson?

01:00:47.260 When I calculate the statistic, 0.94

01:00:50.460 Twigs' DNA profile aligned with the 5% contributor

01:00:53.760 and Mr. Robinson's DNA profile aligned better with the 95% contributor.

01:00:59.000 Okay.

01:00:59.660 Same question with regard to eight.

01:01:01.520 I think you said the ratio was 11% from the minor and 89% from the major. 0.62

01:01:07.100 Is that Twigs being the 11% and Robinson?

01:01:12.160 being the 89 percent yes twigs uh better aligned with that 11 contributor and mr robinson better

01:01:18.840 aligned with that 79 contributor okay so and i actually believe that that was a defense witness

01:01:25.380 but she's given it up that yes there was another person's dna on the towel and the screwdriver

01:01:29.860 mark but that other person contributed just a small amount i mean i don't maybe this gets lance

01:01:34.900 twigs in some sort of trouble or it makes him more interesting to law enforcement when they're

01:01:38.960 investigating this crime. But 95 percent, all the prosecution is trying to prove is that Tyler 0.94

01:01:44.260 Robinson's DNA was on there. And they're able to prove it. The vast majority of it is his DNA.

01:01:50.000 Right. And to Matt Murphy's point, why is this happening right now? This is a PC hearing. So

01:01:56.880 I'll answer the question. Why is it happening? It shouldn't be happening. This is not what we do.

01:02:02.140 So what's happening is they're clearly speaking to the conspiracy theorists who now can grab onto

01:02:08.580 this and say, aha, so even the DNA isn't 100%. There's problems with that, too. That's the only

01:02:14.940 reason why I think they're doing it. Wait, can I interrupt you for one second, Mark? Because some

01:02:17.360 of the conspiracy theorists, or whatever you were calling them, believe that Lance may actually be

01:02:22.980 like either the killer himself, and he set Tyler Robinson up to take the fall, or that maybe Lance

01:02:31.920 is a fed who was kind of sent in there to lead Tyler down this lane, right? Just so people know

01:02:38.160 what you're talking about. Yeah. You know what? My bad. I wasn't opened to those theories. And

01:02:42.860 thank you for letting me know that sarcasm added. I'm trying to avoid them. Trust me.

01:02:48.640 I also want to know then, along with that theory, name me the officers who are risking their own

01:02:54.000 liberty, their future, the lives of their families, essentially, because they'll go to prison if they

01:02:59.500 can be proven to have sacrificed Tyler Robinson for no reason why they picked him. Oh, yeah.

01:03:06.100 except he looks like the guy on the video, you know, the one that we see who's been identified

01:03:10.780 as Tyler Robinson. They're on the scene scouting everything out there that the confession matches

01:03:17.620 to. So the whole thing not only frustrates me, but it annoys me and offends me because there's

01:03:25.400 no lying in what I'm seeing in this prosecution. It's a mere probable cause hearing. Save it for

01:03:31.900 the trial that he will lose and try to work this case out to life. That's what I keep saying.

01:03:38.060 I don't know why I'm not that bothered, John, up by the conspiracy theories. I guess I just feel

01:03:44.100 like I've been in news a long time. Forget my legal career. I've been in news a long time.

01:03:50.480 And there are so many conspiracy theorists out there. Like I've seen this happen so many times

01:03:55.760 in my career where you're like what and then you find out that a lot of people believe this stuff

01:04:02.500 a lot of them are very smart they're well educated they're well off they're sophisticated

01:04:06.480 i like this is america they're allowed to have their beliefs about stuff like this yeah especially

01:04:14.940 in 2026 america there's a lot of reasons to distrust formal government narratives i maybe

01:04:20.860 i am naive and i will be proven totally wrong on this but i still believe in the legal process

01:04:25.720 I just still kind of believe they're going to do what they do.

01:04:29.680 People like you guys who are still in active practice are going to do what you do, like

01:04:33.040 really talented people inside the courtroom who have to abide by the rules of evidence,

01:04:36.960 which were set up long ago for very good reasons.

01:04:39.740 And they tend to work pretty damn well.

01:04:41.840 They're not perfect, but they tend to work pretty damn well in keeping most of this stuff

01:04:45.500 out.

01:04:46.200 Voidir will be used, Jonna, to screen away jurors who are completely like bought in on

01:04:50.960 this stuff.

01:04:51.520 and and lawyers can be very clever with their jury consultants on voir dire to like ferret out

01:04:58.500 somebody with that kind of thinking i i guess i again maybe i'm just naive but i still trust the

01:05:05.700 system to work based on evidence that gets submitted in a courtroom am i nuts you're not

01:05:11.460 that nuts we all want to believe that especially you know that she's right only slightly but yeah

01:05:18.980 I mean, the job now, like we we never had to worry about, I think, years ago, keeping the tinfoil hat wearers off a jury.

01:05:28.500 And we didn't have to worry so much about the conspiracy theorists because they didn't have a keyboard in front of them.

01:05:33.860 They didn't spend their time on social media.

01:05:35.700 They weren't, you know, trying to knock down Phil Holloway's theories and being social media warriors.

01:05:41.620 They get to do that now.

01:05:43.060 And it gives people meaning.

01:05:44.380 It gives them something to do.

01:05:45.820 it. And it gives them a space in the in the atmosphere, in the in the relevant atmosphere.

01:05:51.760 So that's why part of it, I think, happens. The job, our job is to make sure those people

01:05:57.540 don't end up on the jury. And even that has gotten harder because you have people who think

01:06:02.240 they're going to get their 15 minutes of fame. They're going to get their book deal. They're

01:06:05.280 going to make whatever statement they want to make by being a nullified juror or whatever they

01:06:10.740 want to do or convicting or not convicting. And so that part of what we do is really hard,

01:06:16.060 which is why I said you're not that nuts, but you might be a little nuts because this is the

01:06:20.700 world in which we live now. Megan, she said it perfectly. You know, I'm all in favor of people's 0.92

01:06:26.460 First Amendment rights. And if they're just, you know, and they're saying stupid stuff, 0.99

01:06:30.560 that's OK. We've been down that road. But like Jonna, I think just perfectly articulated, 0.99

01:06:35.280 The more that it's out there, the more people want to believe in these alternative theories.

01:06:41.540 And these people can speak to those who can potentially be on the jury.

01:06:45.180 And there's nothing perfect about jury selection.

01:06:47.220 Most judges barely give you that much time and you don't know who's actually going on

01:06:51.960 the jury.

01:06:52.660 I've had ones that you find out things after the fact that blow your mind.

01:06:57.020 So, yes, it does frighten me because it it jeopardizes the integrity of the system when

01:07:02.660 such false information is being disseminated out there. I don't know. You go, Matt, because you've

01:07:08.040 been in the courtroom for your all of your adult life. I guess this is a relatively new phenomenon

01:07:13.920 that it's so pointed and millions of Americans are buying in. You know, we're definitely seeing

01:07:19.120 that on the Charlie narrative. There's no stopping it. Like the answer, of course, to all of this,

01:07:25.400 if you want to even win in the battle of public opinion, is to just put out what's real. This is

01:07:31.560 my own view just keep putting out what's what's real but like you trust me i have been dealing

01:07:37.220 with this god since 2010 actively in my journalism profession i've had specific specific conspiracy

01:07:46.140 theories thrown right at me i mean let's not forget the one of the biggest of all times which

01:07:51.620 was that the sandy hook mass murder was made up that it was an op to institute gun control

01:08:00.440 by our government and that the parents were participants in it. And I interviewed almost,

01:08:07.600 I don't know, two thirds of those parents, myself, including Neil Heslin, who I love and adore,

01:08:13.580 who held his dead son in his arms in a body bag. And then of course, went down a road with Alex

01:08:19.980 Jones that would become infamous. But my point is simply, the answer is not to like necessarily

01:08:26.640 battle it out tit for tat it's just to stick to what we know can be proven and appeal matt to

01:08:33.860 people who are not swept up in like i don't know what you'd call that the the romance i got a few

01:08:42.360 words knowing well do you know what i'm saying though but like i want to hear that's generous

01:08:46.960 like the excitement of like no no no i think we need to be careful not to do that don't don't be

01:08:52.620 pejorative of them because I know a lot of these people and I don't think they're nasty. I mean,

01:08:58.900 I know them in my life. They're not nasty. They would tell you that they care about Charlie Kirk

01:09:04.300 too. They really want answers about what happened to Charlie Kirk, but they don't trust government

01:09:09.020 and they don't trust the narrative. And the only way we can speak to those people, and if they're

01:09:15.420 true conspiracy theorists, they're not gettable, but there are some percentage, there's a percentage

01:09:19.460 who we can convince. They're not going to listen to you're a fucking nutcase by I know better. 0.99

01:09:26.200 Like we need to actually talk to them about why we're so convinced. 1.00

01:09:31.540 If they want to be spoken to. Yeah. You know, the people I know do.

01:09:36.140 So on most on most cases, Megan, and and I'm with you, I think we've we've just got to let

01:09:42.220 the process sort itself out. You know, it exists for a reason. And step by step, we'll get closer

01:09:49.300 to the trial. There's some interesting procedural stuff going on, like he's going to make a ruling

01:09:53.520 in September. That's what we just learned, which is a long time to wait. But we talked about this

01:09:59.300 yesterday. He's being careful. And I was right. Are you ready to tell me I was right now? I was

01:10:04.000 right. And you and Garagos were wrong. Well, no, you were right. And that he was he's he's being

01:10:11.020 I can't criticize you for your opinion that he's being over overly cautious. I my view is he's

01:10:17.160 taking he's playing the long game and he wants to ensure that he he indulges everything the defense

01:10:22.360 raises to ensure the integrity of the conviction during the appellate process that's that's what

01:10:28.000 i'm saying what you're saying is i was right i understand your flowery qualifiers but the bottom

01:10:33.200 line didn't we talk about this on positively legal when i know i'm right i would like to be

01:10:39.180 told that i'm right i know i was right here give up matt just give up okay yeah look my my my

01:10:46.080 problem with the conspiracy theories on this one okay and this is in there there are different

01:10:50.780 things about this case megan and and there there's a lot of emotion around it which i think is is to

01:10:55.420 be understood and i agree with you all the way up to the point where um they start hurting victims

01:11:02.200 families you know like like like the sandy hook example you just gave um you know a conspiracy

01:11:07.860 theory is one thing but one it makes it worse you know i was in a homicide for 17 years and

01:11:14.160 the first thing I would do is always after I filed charges, I would sit down with the family

01:11:17.660 and my team so they could put a face to the people that were working with them. And the death of a

01:11:23.360 loved one, and you're personally experiencing it in this case, Megan, you know, it is the worst

01:11:29.360 thing somebody can go through. And my heart just goes out to his family. And so like people coming

01:11:35.960 up, challenging the government, wanting to see the evidence. I have zero problem with that.

01:11:40.740 That's our process. That's why courtrooms have to be open to the public at all times so people

01:11:46.560 can come in and see the process. So there's faith in it and integrity. But I have a problem with the

01:11:53.140 people when they're hurting Erica Kirk. And I don't know her. I've never met her. That's where

01:11:57.340 I draw the line personally, and that's where I personally want to push back. You heard me do that

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01:16:06.540 i think blaming erica for anything having to do with charlie's death is completely unfounded and

01:16:16.720 deeply wrong and i've objected to it multiple times criticizing erica or not liking erica

01:16:22.760 for you know her behavior publicly over the past 11 months or however long it's been i i don't like 0.99

01:16:30.180 it and i don't agree with it but i that is fair game because she took over turning point she's

01:16:35.360 the CEO of turning point. And there's just, that's going to happen. She became an overnight

01:16:41.220 superstar in the public eye because she took on that role. And also because she's a grieving

01:16:46.740 widow and it like saying that she's immune from criticism, given that she wears this hat as the 0.90

01:16:53.320 chief of one of our largest political organizations in America is just not going to fly. She's not 1.00

01:16:58.040 going to be insulated from, from attacks because she wears that hat. She and I have talked about

01:17:03.280 this many times over the past year. She's aware. She knows that. I, as her friend, would love for

01:17:10.020 her not to be doing that role. I really would. I would love for her to just be a grieving widow

01:17:13.180 so that she would take herself out of the line of fire, forgive the euphemism given this case, 1.00

01:17:17.680 but you know what I mean, so that she could just focus on her personal life.

01:17:21.460 But she is very, very committed to saving Turning Point. And I think she genuinely believes she's

01:17:27.300 she's needed you know she's needed for charlie's vision she was his his love his wife the mother

01:17:33.160 of his kids she's the one with the journals on how he wanted it done i just she she loves her

01:17:38.840 husband she misses him she thinks this is a way of honoring him and i don't question it for a

01:17:43.000 minute but as her friend i see it's made her that piece of her fair game for criticism you cannot

01:17:49.880 take on a role like that and say you can't criticize me now you can criticize her sorry

01:17:54.400 doesn't work like that yeah people can criticize her for her role in uh in turning point and there's

01:17:59.360 you know it seems like half the country has a different political position these days right

01:18:03.660 or a little less than half uh based in the last election but but saying there's there's a big

01:18:08.180 difference in my mind between criticizing her for a role in a in a you know a an organization like

01:18:14.460 turning point and saying she murdered her husband and here are all the reasons why and let me tell

01:18:18.960 you how the you know the the she flew in on an israeli jet and parachuted in with all her co 0.97

01:18:23.680 conspirators and all the insanity that we've heard. That's those are different things in my

01:18:28.780 mind. And I think there is a there is a too far on that because it makes her pain worse in my in 0.57

01:18:35.220 my view. But unfortunately, we're never going to be able to stop. Never agreed with or wanted the

01:18:40.900 criticism of Erica as a potential participant. Sure. In anything having to do with Charlie's

01:18:46.220 death. That didn't happen. So we're not going to be able to stop these people who are blaming her

01:18:53.100 for things. But one thing that could be controlled with her as the victim in this case is the judge

01:18:58.920 not waiting till September to do what we all know he can do right now, and that is find probable

01:19:05.140 cause. So to Matt's point, and I love the way he said it, made me feel a little bit less angry

01:19:10.880 about it, that the judge is just taking his time to ensure that the defense's rights are protected

01:19:16.580 and that he can consider everything. He can do that in a much shorter period of time, though.

01:19:21.240 OK, I'm going to give everybody another week to brief this and send it to me.

01:19:25.580 But to keep Charlie Kirk's widow and anyone else who has an interest in this case sitting

01:19:31.660 around till September sends almost the wrong message to the public like this is some close

01:19:37.100 call.

01:19:37.840 I need to take my time on this because it's so difficult.

01:19:40.260 Two months, Mark.

01:19:40.980 I'm a fan of this judge.

01:19:42.240 Hold on.

01:19:42.760 I don't I'm not jumping on the Megyn Kelly.

01:19:44.660 Listen to me. 0.98

01:19:45.980 I like a lot of things this judge is doing.

01:19:48.440 but it's almost like when, when someone's so compassionate, they could be compassionate to

01:19:52.760 a fault. And in this case, this judge is so caring, but almost to a fault that he's waiting

01:19:58.180 till September. Oh, caring is caring. I was the only moment this judge had is when he winced

01:20:05.000 when watching the video that showed his humanity. And I appreciate it. Everything else has been

01:20:10.780 absurd. Whatever. That's your opinion. I don't share it at all. I criticized him inside of a

01:20:16.500 courtroom. It may not be 30, but 10 years in front of federal judges, state judges. I've

01:20:21.680 tried cases. I've argued appellate arguments. This is a feckless weakling. Jonna, your thoughts?

01:20:27.180 She's looking for support. No, I can. No, I completely agree. This makes absolutely no

01:20:31.700 sense to me. I don't I can't think of a time where I ever had a judge want oral argument

01:20:37.440 after a prelim, every single prelim that I've ever been involved in. And we don't do many in

01:20:42.000 New York. We did much more in California. The decision was made before you walked out of the

01:20:46.600 courtroom after it was over, after the conclusion of the evidence. You didn't get two months to

01:20:51.680 brief and then like that doesn't happen. Why is it happening here? And Mark is claiming, well,

01:20:56.620 it's happening because he wants to be extra careful. OK, it's a death penalty case. But

01:21:00.380 I have to call bullshit on that. And here's why. This is just one step in the process. 0.99

01:21:07.540 Bind this guy over for trial because there's ample evidence to do that. The defense will have

01:21:11.780 plenty of opportunity to file motions to suppress evidence to do whatever they want to bring in

01:21:17.120 other experts to do all that then you have the trial which this was a dress rehearsal for

01:21:22.320 and then you have the appeal like we don't need to solve all the world's problems at the end of

01:21:27.420 this prelim that's why i like her i love her passion it's great it's great great co-host

01:21:35.300 you've been trying to get this out of me for two days mike and on on this point you were right

01:21:39.780 okay and and sword sword or john and 24 07 yeah we do do a lot of prelims in california i've done

01:21:47.900 for over 50 murder prelims i think and uh never wait a few months never what's that you never

01:21:56.580 waited a few months for a ruling i've never waited a few days for ruling and you guys are spot on on

01:22:01.740 that the and and look my gun on this point you're right you've got a guy who he's he he is newly

01:22:06.900 appointed i think i still think he's doing a fine job however a more experienced jurist would

01:22:13.380 probably make the call today that's what i that's what we were all expecting um and because that's

01:22:19.880 what happens in prelims they hear it they go okay argument for the people and you never argue by the

01:22:24.980 way um and argue argument for the defense and they'll say some stuff so that they can check

01:22:30.080 the boxes and then the court binds them over and that's what happens i've never seen a a month-long

01:22:35.680 recess on a on a prelim, but two months. Yes. Right. Two months. You saw my math skills in

01:22:42.620 play. I can't defend this. But I will say this. Judge Murphy would have said, right,

01:22:47.800 I understand where I'm issuing my ruling. I would have. I would have. However, it's not

01:22:55.620 you know, we've got the public side of it. We have the family side of it. And then we have

01:23:00.460 the legal side of it. And it's not going to prejudice the prosecution's case either.

01:23:04.800 It doesn't have anything to do with the sides. 0.99

01:23:07.400 It has to do with testicles. 0.99

01:23:09.860 You either have them or you don't. 0.99

01:23:12.320 And I'm sorry, this judge is missing something underneath that road.

01:23:16.780 He better find it by the time we get to trial.

01:23:19.320 What I'm hoping for, as one of my old buddies, Howard Gundy, used to say in the unit, is

01:23:23.140 that he grows a sack when we get to trial.

01:23:25.380 OK, and that, you know, but look, these are also cheap gimmies.

01:23:29.580 And every single one of these things will be appealed to the umpteenth.

01:23:33.760 And this is an opportunity for him to throw the defense a bunch of bones and listen to a bunch of nonsense and and make the ruling in the safest way that he sees possible.

01:23:44.820 You know, I don't think it's going to hurt the case long run.

01:23:48.200 But on that point, you guys are right.

01:23:51.220 It's not going to hurt the case long run.

01:23:52.720 But it's just annoying because we all know that this is unnecessary and it's like a fiction.

01:23:57.360 It's like a legal fiction.

01:23:58.120 I was saying in the first hour, the defense getting up there and being like, showing that note for two seconds of the handwriting reminds me of the performances in the World Cup where the guys are riding on the field.

01:24:08.960 We all know they're fakers.

01:24:10.320 It's like, you're fine. 0.83

01:24:11.580 Get up.

01:24:12.520 Like two seconds after that, they're running down the full soccer field scoring goals.

01:24:17.500 Like, so that was all an act?

01:24:18.680 That's what we're watching.

01:24:20.200 We're watching acting inside this courtroom right now.

01:24:23.100 I want to keep going because I want to talk about a couple of of items that actually like happened that mattered in court.

01:24:31.240 There has been a question out there about whether Tyler Robinson actually turned himself in.

01:24:37.600 There was testimony that he did.

01:24:40.200 He Lance Twiggs said Tyler told him he was going to go turn himself in.

01:24:45.040 the criminal information said that he went to his parents and they convinced him to turn himself in

01:24:49.880 through the help of a deputy sheriff former deputy sheriff friend and then they actually submitted

01:24:55.780 video of tyler robinson in custody here it is uh with along with a soundbite from agent brian davis

01:25:03.460 in sat uh well it's sat two here right yeah you guys state's exhibit 15 may be played

01:25:09.680 and agent davis who are we seeing here that's tyler robinson and although we are watching it

01:25:20.820 on video what is he wearing at this time he's working a dark colored baseball cap with a

01:25:26.600 that's like a i believe it's like a maybe the hurley symbol on it like a white symbol on front

01:25:31.320 it's a burgundy short sleeve shirt with no graphics it's uh blue jeans and gray and white

01:25:38.120 tennis shoes with their converse style tennis shoes thank you was was mr robinson you stated

01:25:46.280 that he was arrested in the early hours of september 12th is that right yes that's correct

01:25:52.260 did he remain in washington county sheriff's office or was he taken somewhere else no he

01:25:57.380 was transported from there to the utah county jail okay so that's all these little building

01:26:05.920 blocks are there to support what we see in the confession of the texts and the testimony of Lance

01:26:12.800 Twigs and so on, just little building blocks that add support to the overall narrative. And I have

01:26:18.140 one more for you. This is sort of a weird one, but bear with me. The more fully revealed text

01:26:25.840 messages have a reference from Tyler to Lance in the Twigs on the night of the murder. Sorry,

01:26:32.040 from Tyler to Lance Twiggs on the night of the murder where he's describing waiting for the

01:26:38.440 cops to leave so he can get his gun back from that wooded area. And he makes a reference to

01:26:44.120 how loud the crickets are around him. Listen here. It's SOT 70.

01:26:50.440 He continues, the squad car was moved further away enough that I should be able to move in.

01:26:55.600 I backed off because I thought I heard footsteps, maybe a foot patrol, 0.97

01:26:59.200 but the crickets here are so fucking loud. Okay. There actually are loud crickets heard 0.94

01:27:08.160 on video from the ring cam that was introduced at this hearing. Uh, there was a woman whose ring 0.96

01:27:16.280 cam captured Tyler Robinson when he stopped his car and she, or the detective somehow got to her

01:27:23.040 and found it on her ring camera.

01:27:25.760 And you can't really see much of the car.

01:27:28.600 I'm sure they zoomed in

01:27:29.640 and were able to identify the car somehow

01:27:31.060 because it was Tyler Robinson's, we're told.

01:27:33.740 But listen, just listen to the video

01:27:35.680 that they introduced here in SOT 71.

01:27:38.340 Is there any sound associated with this?

01:27:41.100 There is, Judge, but it's night sounds.

01:27:44.120 It's crickets chirping.

01:27:46.660 Okay, I just wanted to see if there was sound or not.

01:27:50.920 Okay, all right, you may play the video.

01:27:53.040 okay you get the picture you can hear the crickets right where he stopped his car

01:28:17.740 loud and clear and then last but not least and this is obviously in its own category of evidence

01:28:23.020 you heard you read Tyler Robinson texting Lance Twiggs about engraving the bullets remember when

01:28:31.220 I was engraving the bullets then you heard Lance Twiggs testify about seeing him engrave the

01:28:37.340 bullets allegedly for a family hunting trip that he Tyler Robinson was going on and then yesterday

01:28:43.860 we saw with our own eyes for the first time the bullet casings which was just chilling I mean it's

01:28:52.580 one thing to, again, hear about what he allegedly wrote on the bullet casings that were there as he

01:28:58.180 killed our friend. And it is another to actually see it on the bullet casings. We've enhanced them

01:29:04.020 so that the audience can see the writing more clearly. But first, I'm just going to play you

01:29:08.640 this soundbite. We read the one of the bullet that was used, the bullet casing to kill Charlie

01:29:15.100 that read Notices Bulge, O-W-O, What's This? And here is Sergeant Jennifer Falmoina discussing

01:29:23.000 the engravings on the other bullets, SOP 54. Is this a photograph of one of the cartridges

01:29:31.920 that was found in the gun? Yes, it is. And what are we looking at here in this view of page one

01:29:36.440 on exhibit 20? This is the head stamp of it. And it says it is a, according to the head stamp,

01:29:42.100 It is a Remington 30-06 Springfield.

01:29:46.240 Is that a different caliber than a .223 round?

01:29:49.080 Yes, it is.

01:29:52.800 Will you look at page 2 of Exhibit 20?

01:29:59.740 Will you read the markings here? 0.94

01:30:03.160 A fascist.

01:30:04.580 And page 3? 0.61

01:30:09.520 Catch.

01:30:10.160 And page 4?

01:30:12.100 Up arrow, right arrow, down arrow, down arrow, down arrow.

01:30:19.800 All right, let's go to exhibit 21.

01:30:21.340 and was this another round that was found in the gun yes will you read the inscription here

01:30:46.500 O'Bella Chow.

01:30:48.400 Page two.

01:30:51.100 Chow Chow.

01:30:53.220 All right, let's go to Exhibit 22.

01:31:03.000 Another round that was found from the gun, correct?

01:31:05.200 Yes.

01:31:05.980 Will you please read the letters here?

01:31:08.640 If you read.

01:31:10.800 Page two. 0.95

01:31:11.560 this comma your or correction this comma you are page three gay and page four lmao 0.98

01:31:25.900 so there it is lmao laughing my ass off the arrow sequence up arrow side arrow down down down 0.96

01:31:35.720 Widely recognized as the stratagem input for the 500-kilogram bomb in the video game Helldivers 2.

01:31:45.000 He was a very online guy, obviously.

01:31:48.260 But, you know, back to kind of our earlier discussion on the conspiracy theories,

01:31:52.960 one of the biggest downsides of spending so much time discussing them is we're not focused on what clearly was this guy's actual motivation.

01:32:03.480 and and that the trans stuff the notices bulges on the cartridge of the the bullet that was used

01:32:13.140 to actually kill charlie hey fascist catch oh bella chow a fascist anthem is not getting

01:32:21.300 these are leftist narratives about what's wrong with our country about what's wrong with the 0.98

01:32:27.340 right wing there was testimonials early at the work testimonials early on from the mother to

01:32:32.400 the cops reportedly saying he had grown more and more left wing in his thinking since he got pulled

01:32:37.940 into this trans furry world. Now you have Lance Twiggs trying to play down his trans affiliation. 0.96

01:32:43.880 Sure. Sure. Luna. And this clearly was a motivation, Matt, as we've seen now in countless

01:32:51.320 cases that this world is subversive and dangerous and can really do a mind meld on people who are

01:32:59.900 weak. Yeah, I mean, this is the tragedy of modern America, in my view, Megan. I mean,

01:33:07.180 from a prosecutor's standpoint, this is motive. This is what we call motive. But it's also you

01:33:14.800 run the risk in modern America that you, more so than the conspiracy theorists, what I'd be

01:33:21.620 worried about in jury selection in this is people that come in that align politically and can't put

01:33:27.280 those um those ideas aside you know that's i think that's the real danger um uh it's not so

01:33:34.820 much the the cuckoos with the tinfoil hat it's the people that um that believe in their hearts

01:33:40.480 uh that this that murder is somehow okay um that that they've rejected 3 000 years of uh western

01:33:48.360 philosophical and religious tradition that the ends don't justify the means and um and think

01:33:55.480 it's all right that that's what i would be worried about in jury selection personally and social

01:33:59.540 murder they were calling it just recently the luigi murder social murder like it's it's disturbing

01:34:06.540 you know like it's okay if you put that label on it to take somebody out because as tyler robbins

01:34:12.160 said some hate can't be negotiated out and there is a faction of the left that believes this they

01:34:18.120 do and who's next on the list megan is what i want to know um who's the next health care ceo that

01:34:23.340 that is okay to kill you know what i mean it's like the reign of robespierre who's who's next

01:34:27.780 in the in the media landscape um if we're going to start killing people that want to engage in 0.51

01:34:31.280 dialogue who's next you know mark you me um like it's it never that list never ends and we've seen

01:34:40.080 that with pol pot and stalin and mal and you know we could go back through political movements going

01:34:46.220 back to ancient rome on that and i don't know if it's the people who forget history are doomed to

01:34:50.760 repeated or if these people are so wrapped up in their own self-righteousness that they've decided

01:34:55.960 that if they do it and their intentions are pure, therefore murder, the worst thing that any human

01:35:01.500 being can do throughout history is somehow OK. And I still haven't wrapped my head around it.

01:35:06.320 I'm still working on getting through the Luigi Mangione stuff for the same reason. But you're

01:35:11.460 right, Megan. This is one of the other things about the conspiracy stuff that bothers me

01:35:15.400 is that it's distracting from the real discussion that I think we need to be having as a country.

01:35:20.760 And that is this can't be our future. And we all need to agree that we railed for months.

01:35:27.260 We in the right wing and independent media about how the FBI, Joe Biden's FBI, would not release the so-called manifesto of that Nashville, Tennessee trans shooter.

01:35:38.600 um this is a it was this is at a school her name was audrey hale and um we railed for months that

01:35:48.420 they wouldn't release this person's manifesto about why they did it and what was and it was

01:35:53.340 like all it was laden with trans references and mania from the trans stuff this is kind of the

01:36:00.140 same thing this is a everything beyond what he's said on these bullet casings what everybody who

01:36:05.140 knows him has said what he's made clear was his motivation and anything beyond that.

01:36:09.840 I mean, look, you can spend time on it, but it amounts to the FBI cover up of what the

01:36:14.060 real motivation was in Nashville.

01:36:15.800 Like we have very good evidence of what the motivation was by Tyler Robinson.

01:36:20.780 Very good.

01:36:21.380 It's on the bullets, Jonna.

01:36:23.360 And, you know, we ignore it at our peril.

01:36:26.640 We've been ignoring so many of these murders at our peril because there are people on the

01:36:31.740 left and the right who think the whole trans mania thing is just sort of a like whatever that's not 0.62

01:36:37.820 one of our real problems oh yes it is right and we're just mean we're just mean when we talk about

01:36:43.840 it in that sense but i'm gonna at the risk of beginning my own mini conspiracy theory on your

01:36:49.120 show i don't think the engravings on the bullet casings only show motivation clearly they do show

01:36:55.740 motivation. I think when you look at the casings and you look at the very detailed text messages,

01:37:04.360 in my mind, Tyler Robinson wanted to be caught. You do not leave a trail of breadcrumbs that

01:37:12.560 large and that unmistakable unless at some point you want to get caught. You know,

01:37:20.340 his attorneys are sitting there fighting over, well, you know what? The bullet information,

01:37:23.980 The bullet fragments are inconclusive. Well, you know what? The bullet casings are not inconclusive.

01:37:29.960 And so when you when you leave a digital trail, we talked about this on your show the other day,

01:37:34.300 when you leave a digital trail with those messages, you know, is he is he writing a memoir?

01:37:38.400 Oh, the crickets. Oh, they're so loud. But every single excruciating detail to his, you know, furry lover.

01:37:44.120 When you know darn well, you know darn well they're going to get found.

01:37:48.220 And you take the time to carve these engravings, telling your furry lover that you're going hunting.

01:37:53.660 who the deer can't read like come on people this guy on some level wanted to be caught that's my

01:38:01.160 mini conspiracy theory i'll leave it right there and but what i mean i don't disagree with you

01:38:06.940 because look within 24 hours uh he was confessing to everybody to his lover to his parents to the

01:38:15.900 deputy sheriff friend to discord it's one thing to confess to your lover and say delete these texts

01:38:21.640 and you believe he will and maybe he won't. But like getting on discord and telling everybody

01:38:25.840 by this point, he'd already agreed, Mark, to turn himself in. So I'm sure he's thinking,

01:38:29.800 I don't care. You know, I'm he was reportedly suicidal. You know, the parents are trying to

01:38:34.520 talk him out of taking his own life, according to the criminal information. And I guess it just

01:38:39.460 given it up. But like there's been no examination of really what happened to Tyler Robinson.

01:38:45.740 right what happened to him where he went from this kid who had a 4.0 according to his mom and

01:38:52.060 got a scholarship to this decent university that he did not finish at to to this you're going to

01:38:59.100 hear about it you know when you'll hear about it in the penalty phase and it'll come from the

01:39:03.800 defense there's somebody right now dedicated to just that focus who's handling the second chair

01:39:09.940 as we call it who's looking for everyone who ever said god bless you to any good deed he's ever done

01:39:15.580 And they'll throw in there things like he surrendered.

01:39:20.820 He allegedly felt sorry for what he had done and wished he didn't do it.

01:39:25.260 And I know you think it's crap, but those facts in that environment may fuel one juror in believing, well, OK, then the scales tip in favor towards mitigation. 0.95

01:39:37.220 I'll let him live. 0.98

01:39:38.260 And that, to me, is the challenge for prosecutors, because anything other than death, people will deem this a failure. 0.99

01:39:45.580 I mean, I don't, I don't know that I think it's crap. He felt sad that he did it and regretted. 0.98

01:39:50.480 I just don't care. I don't, I don't. You know who will care? Jurors. They're, they're going to

01:39:55.080 listen to it. They're going to hear it. And I mean, you can put that on the neck of the woods,

01:40:00.320 Mark Iglars, but in Utah, they're more like me. Maybe, but you never know. Death is different.

01:40:07.800 Everyone has their own particular feelings as to what warrants the death penalty. And no reason

01:40:13.260 Utah has the death penalty. If there was some revolt against it, Utah would be California where

01:40:19.200 they have the death penalty, but they just won't enforce it. It just it's like what it was either

01:40:23.600 Garagos or you, Matt, who called it like the soft death penalty the other day. Like Utah, Utah's

01:40:30.080 different. Utah's full of Christians, Mormons. They're law abiding. There are a lot of red state 1.00

01:40:36.420 voters there. And I just think that's our best chance because I don't think they're going to be

01:40:42.120 moved by the, you know, sob story. Tyler Robinson had it rough. You know, he was a good kid. And I

01:40:50.300 realized I said this yesterday, he didn't have a lifetime of crime, but the death penalty takes

01:40:54.800 into consideration that, but also how horrific this crime was. Does it not? Matt Murphy literally

01:41:00.320 wrote a book called the book of murder and has done, has tried death penalty cases. The one,

01:41:05.480 just the one is enough to get you the death penalty if it's horrific enough if it's deemed

01:41:11.760 worthy yeah so the way it works megan and you mark are both right here um it's it's aggravating

01:41:18.320 versus mitigating factors and in california we call it k-factor evidence um i don't know what it

01:41:24.780 what number it comes down to in utah but it's essentially a catch-all where the jury they

01:41:31.280 before somebody is sentenced to death, they're entitled to the individual vote of each juror.

01:41:37.720 So it's a little bit different than the guilt or penalty. And they're instructed that individually

01:41:42.560 they must make up their own mind, essentially. And they're allowed to consider anything that

01:41:48.100 ameliorates or somehow lessens the severity of what they did, which goes to Mark's point.

01:41:53.740 And that is they're basically given, it's like an e-ticket ride in Disneyland.

01:41:58.320 land it the defense has a catch-all that they can put in all kinds different evidence like if you

01:42:04.960 ever if he was a boy scout uh if he walked an old lady across the street every picture

01:42:09.560 at megan every death penalty case i did and i did eight of them um that were we actually tried them

01:42:14.940 i think every single one of those had a picture of the defendant as a kid holding a puppy all of

01:42:20.360 that stuff comes in and and you know um let me ask you this matt let me ask you this as a prosecutor

01:42:26.380 who was on the opposite side of all this,

01:42:28.400 trying to overcome those pictures.

01:42:31.800 Wouldn't you, if I were the prosecutor in this case,

01:42:33.800 I think I'd get up there

01:42:35.720 and I would play the video

01:42:40.060 of Charlie's neck exploding

01:42:42.920 and a Vesuvius of blood

01:42:46.540 coming out of it instantaneously.

01:42:49.760 And then I'd show a picture of his two kids,

01:42:54.280 his babies, his two babies.

01:42:56.380 not to mention his mom and his dad and his wife and his sister. Like, that's the argument for

01:43:01.640 death. That's it. That's the argument. Forget Charlie's massive role in society, his obvious

01:43:07.220 future status as a probable president and all that, his status as a Christian faith revivalist. 0.73

01:43:13.200 I know that is relevant because if he was murdered for his political views, that can be an aggravated

01:43:19.040 factor on some of these crimes but you see that video matt that video is incredibly compelling

01:43:26.940 it's very emotional it's truly horrific so bad that most of us don't want to ever see it again

01:43:34.100 and most people who have seen it won't look at it a second time and most people who haven't seen it

01:43:38.120 have zero desire to see it because they understand it's a before and after moment well the circumstances

01:43:42.980 of the offense and you're right megan the circumstances of the offense include victim

01:43:47.820 impact testimony so some of the most powerful stuff we're going to see um are going to come

01:43:53.020 from erica kirk and charlie kirk's loved ones and they're going to come in and they get to testify

01:43:57.860 about the impact that the murder has had on them on their lives um you know and we used to ask three

01:44:04.560 questions um uh describe your relationship with the with the with the murder victim where were

01:44:10.920 you when you learned about it and her story she's right there right um and how has it impacted your

01:44:16.940 life there's the three questions you and you just you let them talk and it is that is the most

01:44:22.620 powerful um evidence i've ever seen in a courtroom and it is and the jury gets to hear all that and

01:44:29.820 then they get to assign a weight to that and then they compare that weight against whatever was

01:44:34.980 presented in mitigation the picture of the puppy uh the fact that maybe he turned himself in the

01:44:40.580 fact that maybe he cried they have to if and the the standard is if the jury finds that the

01:44:46.320 aggravating circumstances substantially outweigh any circumstances in mitigation,

01:44:50.860 that's when they can, but are not required to return a birth of death. And I, and I think,

01:44:56.260 and, and, and, and in most, in the vast majority of murder cases, you don't have videotape of the

01:45:02.420 moment of death. You don't have videotape of the actual crime in the moment of death, which we,

01:45:08.480 we do have here. Megan, I want to, I want to bring up a point to your point. It is absolutely

01:45:14.800 abhorrent that video we had we thought we had the same thing here in south florida when nicholas

01:45:19.720 cruz went through marjory stoneman douglas high school and shot up students the the video the

01:45:24.960 photos i gotta go horrible they found him you know three people thought he should live so you

01:45:30.220 never know what's gonna apologize but i i gotta wrap okay great to see you all thank you we'll

01:45:34.000 be back with new shows next week thanks for listening to the megan kelly show no bs no agenda

01:45:41.160 and no fear

01:45:44.800 Thank you.

The Megyn Kelly Show - July 10, 2026

Judge Graf Shows ZERO Confidence Despite MOUNTAINS of Evidence in Tyler Robinson Hearing, Lance Twiggs DOWNPLAYS His ＂Trans＂ Identity, w⧸ Aronberg, Frei, Eiglarsh, Murphy & Spilbor ｜ Ep. 1357

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