The Megyn Kelly Show - Justice For Johnny Depp, and What is a Woman, with Matt Walsh and Mark Geragos

00:00:00.580 Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.

00:00:11.380 Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. We've got a big show for you

00:00:16.000 today. In just a bit, I'm going to be joined by The Daily Wire's Matt Walsh. He is out with a

00:00:21.000 new documentary today that is making major headlines this morning. It just premiered last

00:00:25.980 night and now he's with us to talk about it. And it is so good. It's so well done. So we're

00:00:32.740 going to get into it. And they were mocking him on The Daily Wire sort of backstage thing

00:00:38.460 as the lumberjack. He does look like a lumberjack and sort of dresses like a lumberjack. And his

00:00:43.560 deadpan, unflappable sort of approach to these interviews with people who are activists in

00:00:50.000 sort of the trans, like the transitioning of trans people community is very exposing. I'll put it

00:00:58.600 that way. Okay. So we'll talk to him about it in a, in a minute. But first we begin with a resounding

00:01:03.720 victory for Johnny Depp over Amber Heard in the defamation case scene around the world. The

00:01:09.420 Virginia jury finding that she defamed him maliciously making up lies about him, abusing

00:01:15.260 her in a 2018 Washington post op-ed awarding him $10 million in compensatory damages and another

00:01:23.860 5 million in punitive damages. That 5 million later reduced to 350,000 because Virginia has a cap on

00:01:30.420 punitive damage awards on her counterclaims against him. The jury found in Depp's favor on two out of the

00:01:38.000 three counts raised, but found that he, through his attorney did make up a story about her intentionally

00:01:45.000 trashing their penthouse so that things would look extra bad when police showed up one night.

00:01:51.120 That one untrue statement should cost Mr. Depp $2 million, said the jury. But don't be distracted

00:01:57.880 by her win on that one piece of her counterclaim. This was a total victory for Johnny Depp.

00:02:03.040 Amber Heard has been humiliated, publicly deemed a malicious liar. And this jury says she's been at it

00:02:09.340 for years. They essentially found her to be a fake victim, rejecting her claims of domestic abuse and

00:02:15.200 sexual violence. The verdict tells us that they watched and listened to Ms. Heard on the stand and

00:02:21.360 in the end did not find her credible. As I outlined in my talking points yesterday, this was a foreseeable

00:02:27.780 and supported result. There is no question Ms. Heard did lie to this jury over and over and over,

00:02:35.420 in my view. And in the end, whether it was this accumulation of obvious lies or just an overall

00:02:42.700 belief that she made up this entire story, they rejected her testimonial, period. In the wake of

00:02:50.440 the verdict, Ms. Heard blamed the, quote, disproportionate power, influence, and sway of

00:02:55.100 her ex-husband. There's no question Johnny Depp did have more star power and sway within this courtroom,

00:03:03.140 not to mention with the court of public opinion. But that was not an insurmountable obstacle. It was

00:03:10.240 a factor in the trial, but it wasn't why she lost. Her own duplicity was. She lied over inconsequential

00:03:18.680 things and hugely significant things as well, which I outlined in yesterday's show before we knew we had

00:03:25.460 a verdict. And while she easily could have owned up to it with this jury by saying, for example,

00:03:30.000 okay, I did leak to TMZ. I'm not proud of it, but I did it because I feared he would crush me in what

00:03:36.800 I knew would be the coming PR war. She would have been in so much better of a position, but she

00:03:42.700 couldn't admit to anything that might expose her as conniving, as a manipulator. That was a truth

00:03:50.140 too scary to let them see. And her attempts to hide it only made it more obvious. She goes on in her

00:03:57.700 post-verdict statement as follows, quote, I'm even more disappointed with what this verdict means for

00:04:02.420 other women. It sets back the idea that violence against women is to be taken seriously. That's not

00:04:09.360 true. I don't agree with that. Her allegations of violence were taken extremely seriously. She had

00:04:16.460 two courts spend months at a time on them. She took the witness stand for four days in this trial,

00:04:22.160 which lasted six weeks, to tell her story in a court of law. Her problem was not that she wasn't

00:04:27.940 taken seriously. It's that her lies made her not believable. That is her failing, not one that will

00:04:34.560 necessarily follow future accusers. But let's entertain for a minute the prospect that she's

00:04:39.940 right, that other women will now have to plow a tougher road because of this case. Who's to blame

00:04:47.440 for that? She is. She showed the world that abuse claims require careful, meticulous scrutiny

00:04:56.500 because women sometimes do lie. She certainly did, in my opinion. Why didn't she just come clean about

00:05:06.500 her op-ed being about Johnny Depp, for example, something she later accidentally confessed on

00:05:11.440 cross-examination but first denied to the jury? Why didn't she just admit that poopgate was an

00:05:16.580 outrageous prank she and her friend played at a time she was feeling deeply wounded and angry at

00:05:21.920 her husband, instead of blaming it on a four-pound teacup Yorkie? Why didn't she just tell the jury,

00:05:28.960 I did pledge my divorce money to charitable organizations, but then I started to worry

00:05:33.120 about my career prospects and thought I might need to save it for myself instead. I shouldn't have

00:05:37.720 said I'd already donated it. I'm embarrassed that I never paid. She lied about these things because

00:05:43.840 they either reflect poorly on her or might have undermined her case. But the lies did more damage

00:05:49.160 than owning these things could have ever done. And they were obvious. Unlike the battles over her

00:05:55.520 abuse claims, where there was evidence that could go either way, these were gimmies. The truth was quite

00:06:01.420 plain to anyone watching, and yet she couldn't and wouldn't own it. To the extent there is now more

00:06:08.140 skepticism of the next woman's claim, Ms. Hurd has only herself to blame. Hurd's lawyer was on the

00:06:15.760 Today Show this morning blaming cameras in the courtroom and the coliseum-like atmosphere that

00:06:20.980 resulted on social media, suggesting the jurors had to be influenced by all of that. Live by the sword,

00:06:28.640 die by the sword, madam. Your client was the one who made this thing public. In her request for a

00:06:34.800 restraining order against him in 2016. In her multiple leaks to TMZ, making sure that they

00:06:41.520 would photograph her allegedly bruised face that day. In her leaks of the tape, showing Johnny Depp

00:06:48.200 slamming cabinets, etc., which conveniently edit out the part at the end where she laughs at him.

00:06:54.020 And of course, in her Washington Post op-ed, calling him an abuser and painting herself as a

00:06:58.460 survivor. She's the one who started this PR war and has no grounds to complain simply because

00:07:04.780 she lost it. Tarana Burke, the woman who first coined the phrase Me Too, and who now heads an

00:07:11.960 organization by the same name, called this case a, quote, toxic catastrophe and said the country,

00:07:18.340 quote, still has to reckon with why it is so invested in the pain and anguish of violence.

00:07:25.000 How unfair. Amber Hurd had her day in court. She had able representation. She was listened to

00:07:32.360 and rejected. That does not reflect some, quote, investment in the pain and anguish of violence

00:07:39.860 by America. It means the jury didn't think she proved her case. To the extent Me Too was a means

00:07:47.620 of calling out and calling to account abusers who use a power imbalance to sexually harass or abuse

00:07:53.060 women in the workplace, it was a noble mission. And there's no question it's done a lot of good.

00:07:59.100 No one misses Harvey Weinstein, Les Moonves, Larry Nassar, or many others. To the extent it turned

00:08:06.660 into a witch hunt against men who were disliked for other reasons or who were guilty of mild workplace

00:08:13.720 transgressions that could easily be dealt with and moved past, but instead suffered a professional

00:08:19.540 death penalty or to a place where accused men suffered a presumption of guilt, it needed a

00:08:26.040 correction. All a woman deserves is the right to a fair hearing, not the right to be believed.

00:08:32.240 Accused men, the same. Each party got that in the Depp v. Hurd case. The system worked just as it's

00:08:40.120 supposed to. Which leads me to my last point about the courts. While not infallible, the courts are

00:08:47.240 our last best vestige against social justice warriors like the ACLU here, who actually wrote

00:08:54.740 this op-ed for Amber Heard, who care more for blanket assertions of victimhood than they do for

00:09:00.440 hardcore proof. Had Johnny Depp never involved the courts in this matter, he would still be presumed

00:09:06.460 an abuser. Had Chicago never appointed a special prosecutor, Jussie Smollett could still paint himself

00:09:13.780 as a truth teller. Had Kyle Rittenhouse never gone through the court system and been acquitted by a

00:09:20.760 jury, he would still be operating under a cloud of accusation and suspicion. Our courts have done an

00:09:26.880 admirable job of rejecting the search for social justice and instead prioritizing evidence and the

00:09:32.700 law. It doesn't always happen, and law schools right now are full of wokesters who have a very different

00:09:38.440 mission. But at the moment, the courts remain predominantly a place where the true administration

00:09:43.860 of justice remains the mission. That is not a toxic catastrophe. It's a triumph. Joining me now to

00:09:53.440 discuss it all, Mark Garagos. He's a trial lawyer and managing partner of Garagos and Garagos. He's also

00:09:59.400 the co-host of the Reasonable Doubt podcast with our buddy, Adam Carolla.

00:10:09.120 Mark, welcome back. So what did you think of the verdict?

00:10:12.100 I am given kind of the non sequestered jury, given the absolute internet drubbing of Amber.

00:10:21.780 The only thing I think I was surprised that here at the end was that she actually prevailed

00:10:27.200 and got $2 million as basically an offset. I was a little, I wish I could be as positive and

00:10:35.540 I guess spiritual about the court system as you and your monologue, because I was dismayed to some

00:10:44.640 degree at the reporting and the commentary after the verdict. I mean, a lot of people I greatly respect

00:10:52.120 didn't understand that the $5 million of the punitive damages was immediately remitted down to

00:10:58.460 the $350 cap. A lot of people did not understand that she, I mean, part of what the jury instructions

00:11:05.520 were in this case. I mean, when you break down the jury instructions in the verdict form, it's really

00:11:11.220 kind of eye-opening to some degree. He was suing her basically for a headline that she retweeted and

00:11:18.620 did not write. She was suing him for something that Mr. Waldman, his agent slash lawyer, had said.

00:11:26.360 I mean, there's a reason this case was brought in Virginia. It would not have survived to California.

00:11:32.160 Well, she may not have written the headline to the Washington Post piece, but it was submitted under

00:11:37.960 her name and the body of it was from her.

00:11:42.040 She didn't write much of this based on-

00:11:43.700 No, the ACLU wrote it, but it was submitted by her. She took ownership of it. I'm only making

00:11:48.080 a distinction between the headline and the body because typically the way the op-eds work is you

00:11:52.300 write the body of it and then the newspaper gets to slap whatever headline on it they want. So I would

00:11:58.080 even give her a pass on the headline, but there's no question she stood by what was in the body of the

00:12:03.760 piece and she stood by the headline too. She just wanted the jury to think it wasn't about Johnny

00:12:07.640 Depp, which they totally rejected.

00:12:09.680 Yeah. Well, they rejected that. And I thought that was, you know, one of the things I counsel

00:12:13.340 the lawyers in our office and any others that I speak to is don't run away from bad facts. If you

00:12:20.780 have bad facts, deal with them because that's the quickest way to a jury rejecting your client's case

00:12:27.460 is when you try to stand on your head to get around what the bad facts are. And in this case,

00:12:32.940 part of what you were talking about in the monologue was exactly that. Why run away from stuff

00:12:38.580 that are much, uh, that are, I think much more easily explained to much more plausible when you

00:12:44.180 just tell the truth. Right. So this is, I'm, I've been dying to talk to you about this because

00:12:49.180 you and I looked at her direct testimony, which was given, it ended on a Friday right before they

00:12:53.960 took a week off and we both found it compelling. And, you know, I've dealt with a lot of domestic

00:12:59.640 violence survivors. So have you in your practice. And she, to me, sounded like somebody who had been

00:13:05.120 through at least some of the things that she was ticking off. Um, the problem for her and my

00:13:12.120 assessment of her case came on cross-examination, as we both said, you know, she hasn't been crossed

00:13:16.060 yet. We'll see what happens. And I understood all the points that Camille Vasquez was making on

00:13:21.000 the actual abuse claims. Like, here's a picture of you looking gorgeous and perfect. The night you

00:13:24.920 claim he punched you in the face, like all that was very good. You normally don't have that when

00:13:28.580 you're cross-examining somebody claiming this, um, and tried to go after the photos that she had

00:13:33.580 submitted as having been doctored and so on. Okay. That could have gone either way. Like I wasn't

00:13:38.200 necessarily convinced by that piece of the cross that it didn't happen. It was all her. Okay. Yeah.

00:13:44.440 It was all her other lies that made me say, this is not a truth teller.

00:13:50.420 I was going to say, and they were all self-inflicted wounds. I don't want to demean

00:13:55.720 Camille's cross, but that, you know, the cross was a workmanlike cross and they were all self-inflicted

00:14:03.680 wounds by Amber. I just didn't understand it. I don't know if she was not mock cross, but mock

00:14:09.880 cross is something we often do where you take your client, you have somebody that you know, or

00:14:14.840 yourself. I, I used to do it myself, but it really does great damage to the attorney client relationship.

00:14:20.960 So now I'll roll somebody in who can be the bad guy, but there you quickly find out people hang

00:14:27.900 on to the weirdest things when, when they're on cross that make no moment or have no moment or

00:14:34.520 any great, uh, moment, uh, at the end of the day. And they just, they wet themselves to it inexplicably.

00:14:41.120 I think if she just owned, for example, the things I ticked off in my opening talking points,

00:14:45.860 it would have won favor with the jury contrary to her probable belief that it would have cost

00:14:52.700 her with them. I think it would have gained her standing with the jury because it makes her look

00:14:58.260 bad, makes her look small, makes her look insecure and somewhat petty. And I think they actually would

00:15:05.560 have said, you know, poor girl, like she was in a bad place. Like this was not a person at her best

00:15:11.540 self. By the way, you don't know what the proof that you're right is. They answered questions in

00:15:18.420 the special verdict that basically said, we believe her up to a point. I mean, she had,

00:15:26.340 she got $2 million by awarded by a jury when she was caught flat footed repeatedly. If she had just

00:15:33.760 owned it, she may have washed this out. Yeah. So she, the reason she couldn't, and all this,

00:15:39.380 all the lies that I was ticking off in the talking points are, I don't know how to describe,

00:15:43.780 maybe process lies. It wasn't necessarily, she never got caught dead to rights in a lie about

00:15:48.080 the alleged abuse. It's not like they have a videotape of the moment of alleged assault that

00:15:52.960 shows something else. It was all stuff around the allegations that, as I said, the talking points

00:15:57.940 were gimmies. She didn't have to lie. And you know, the legal term for that obviously would be

00:16:04.120 materiality. Nothing of that she was lying about was going to affect the material nature of the

00:16:11.160 questions that were going to be asked of the jury. Remember, you can talk about the internet. You can

00:16:16.940 talk about the audience, you know, the outside audience, if you will, the public audience. But

00:16:22.440 all that matters at the end of the day is who won the verdict and the jury. And they knew what their

00:16:28.760 questions are going to be. They knew what the jury was going to be asked. And none of those things

00:16:33.840 would have mattered on the questions that were asked of the jury, except that when they get the

00:16:41.600 instructions about somebody who's willfully false, that's, that's what you get. You get, we're not,

00:16:46.960 we don't believe her. We don't, uh, you blew it. Yeah. We'll take her this far, but not all the way.

00:16:52.880 It's like talking to your, your, you know, partner who you suspect of cheating on you. And he's like,

00:16:58.100 I didn't cheat on you. I didn't cheat on you. And, but then he's like, but this is where I was

00:17:01.520 and none of it checks out. And you're like, okay, I don't have videotape of you cheating,

00:17:05.400 but you were not at that restaurant. You were not with that buddy. And you did not take the Uber.

00:17:09.180 You said you did. It's like, that's how we draw conclusions. Okay. So let me talk about her lawyer

00:17:13.400 who goes on the today show to complain about the Coliseum like nature of these proceedings. She did not

00:17:19.880 want cameras in the courtroom. They weren't in the UK courtroom. That case was decided by a judge,

00:17:25.960 not a jury. And she's blaming that. And in addition, um, she's saying that she's going to

00:17:32.820 appeal and she likes her chances because she says this judge wrongly excluded certain evidence that

00:17:38.860 she thought should have been in. Here's a little snippet.

00:17:42.360 How was Amber?

00:17:43.460 We had an enormous amount of evidence that was suppressed in this case that was in the UK case.

00:17:48.820 They were able to suppress the medical records, which were very, very significant because they

00:17:55.220 showed a pattern back going all the way back to 2012 of Amber reporting this to her therapist.

00:18:01.500 For example, we had significant amount of texts, including from Mr. Depp's assistance saying,

00:18:07.700 when I told him he kicked you, he cried. He is so sorry.

00:18:12.720 So what's going on there?

00:18:15.820 Let me tell you something. I, I don't know, you know, and we're talking, you and I are talking as

00:18:21.400 the breaking news is that Harvey Weinstein's conviction was affirmed here in New York. And

00:18:26.580 by the way, I watched the oral argument in that case. And if I was a betting man, I would have bet

00:18:32.480 that it was reversed. So it's always difficult to predict what a court of appeal will do.

00:18:38.520 I'm not so sure that this is her strongest argument on appeal. I think to some degree,

00:18:45.500 the strongest argument on appeal here is the, is going to be things such as litigation privilege,

00:18:52.580 things such as the first amendment, things such as the forum shopping and things of that nature.

00:18:58.620 Remember this case was brought in Virginia very specifically because the side, they were trying

00:19:04.540 to do an end run around what's called the anti-slap statute in California, where they both

00:19:10.740 reside. Most courts do not want to become, unless you're in Texas and doing IP litigation, most courts

00:19:19.240 don't want to be a hub for people from all over the country forum shopping. And you might find that

00:19:25.080 that is probably one of the more compelling reasons to reverse this case so that people don't start

00:19:31.060 bringing all kinds of domestic violence accusations and litigations to Virginia.

00:19:37.500 I mean, even if they win that, it's over. You know, he, he's gotten the total victory that he

00:19:42.740 wanted legally and PR wise. He comes out with a statement that reads in part, false, very serious

00:19:48.360 and criminal allegations were levied at me via the media, which triggered an endless barrage of hateful

00:19:53.780 content. Although no charges were ever brought against me. It had already traveled around the world

00:19:58.580 twice within a nanosecond and it had a seismic impact on my life and my career. And six years

00:20:03.860 later, the jury gave me my life back. I mean, she talks about, you know, what she's been subjected

00:20:09.820 to. Amber heard the quote abuse during the course of this trial. And I have no, I have no doubt that's

00:20:14.560 true, but he's been subjected to a lot too in the, however many years it's been, four years prior to the

00:20:21.400 day. This jury handed him this verdict. Well, our friend, Adam Carolla, I think said it best when he

00:20:28.980 said only somebody like Johnny Depp, who's got F me money could actually go through this, not once,

00:20:35.220 but twice in order to try to redeem himself. And certainly that's, that's not the calculation that

00:20:40.600 most people have at their disposal, because this is, you know, has been a sojourn for him and a journey

00:20:47.020 for him. And I've been quite frank. If you, if I were advising him, I would have said this justice

00:20:51.560 and worth it. He thought it was, and he, uh, he gets the last laugh. Well, what do you make of that

00:20:56.980 now? Cause you and I have been debating the PR war and whether this is worth it for him from the start.

00:21:02.160 I have felt that it, it would be worth it for him, even if he lost the jury verdict, but he won it all

00:21:09.400 in my view. And I think he emerges very employable versus where he was a year ago. And people are now

00:21:16.460 rooting for him. You know, they want to come back and they see him as a wronged guy. And I think for

00:21:21.160 her, it's exactly the opposite. I think for the short term, she's been ruined professionally.

00:21:26.880 You know, one of the great subtexts of this trial for an, on a number of levels is insurance. Uh,

00:21:34.740 I suspect that insurance is paying for at least part of both Amber Heard's defense and for Johnny,

00:21:43.100 Johnny's defense on the, uh, counterclaim. I suspect that one of the things that has been

00:21:50.100 a real problem for Johnny Depp is being, is for studios to be able to get insurance on his

00:21:56.280 productions. And now when you're going up on appeal, insurance companies are going to,

00:22:00.880 if they're in the mix and there's potential liability without getting into the weeds on

00:22:06.340 reservation or rights, there is going to be some calculations done by, uh, insurance companies

00:22:11.820 as to whether to settle or whether to try to move forward on an appeal. And you're going to have

00:22:16.660 underwriters who are going to say before we employ him, can we get insurance, uh, in studios making

00:22:23.060 that calculation for either her or for him? I think he's going to get a big deal because I think the

00:22:29.780 American public now are rooting for a comeback for him. And I don't think, I do not expect to see her

00:22:35.440 in Aquaman three or anything else over the short haul because she's been exposed. I mean, this jury

00:22:40.800 said that she maliciously lied about him for years. She played the victim when she wasn't.

00:22:45.420 That's essentially what they said. And the ACLU rushed to print it in the Washington post and the

00:22:50.920 Washington post rushed to print it at a time when it was just starting to become in fashion to say

00:22:57.600 that you were a victim of sexual abuse or harassment. You know, the me too movement exploded right around

00:23:02.840 then in 2018, uh, 17, 18. And now what of that? Because Johnny Depp writes in his statement in

00:23:09.840 part, I also hope the position will now return to innocent until proven guilty, both within the courts

00:23:16.140 and in the media. It won't, the media will never, never do that. But is this a moment for, like I was

00:23:26.540 saying in my talking points about for, for men and due process and just sort of a, not a backlash,

00:23:32.460 but sort of a resettling of a movement that got too far over its own skis?

00:23:38.840 Well, I think, I think you would agree that part of that pendulum swing, which has been very quick,

00:23:44.780 uh, for most movements, uh, started with Kavanaugh and the reaction to the hearings. And then you have

00:23:52.220 something like this, which shows also kind of a pendulum swing. And it, there was, I think a

00:23:59.740 breathtaking, um, kind of shifting of roles when you take a look at the internet reaction along the

00:24:06.660 way here, things that even two years ago, I said were incomprehensible based on where we were have

00:24:13.720 now become, there was almost like permission to go back to towards the center, so to speak. So if,

00:24:20.660 you know, the last place, and obviously this was a civil trial, but I've always argued that the last

00:24:26.840 place for a movement is in the criminal justice system. And I suppose we can expand that into the,

00:24:33.820 the justice system itself. The justice system is so hard to press, to get it right, to begin with,

00:24:41.020 that when you inject a movement into it, that it just irretrievably breaks it.

00:24:46.320 I, I feel, look, in a way I was part of the Me Too movement, right? I,

00:24:51.320 I sure was a whole movie about it. And, um, I can tell you, having been in this position in a way,

00:24:58.860 I would have had no problem having a court take a look at my story and my evidence. You know,

00:25:07.180 when I went through what I went through at Fox with Roger Ailes as a very young correspondent,

00:25:13.300 correspondent, but a not so recently retired lawyer, um, I documented everything, Mark. I had

00:25:20.760 volumes of journals with entries. I made a record with a lawyer. My office mate at the time, Major

00:25:28.540 Garrett, who's now the White House correspondent at CBS News, was there for many of his inappropriate

00:25:33.300 phone calls. And when I got back to the office from inappropriate office visits and saw it all,

00:25:39.260 I mean, I had, I had a long list of things that supported my story that were unassailable.

00:25:46.400 You know, there was no photographs, nor would I have put them through some sort of an evidence

00:25:51.240 or some sort of a manipulator like Amber Heard did. But, um, you know, the lawyers came to look at it.

00:25:57.200 They didn't just take my journal entries. They said, we want to see all, all of your journals.

00:26:01.380 We'll make sure that this, you've really been keeping these journals and you can just come up with this

00:26:05.180 for this case, you know, cause women might do that. Some accuser might do that. My point is simply,

00:26:10.260 if you're a truth teller, you should welcome the judicial process. You should welcome due process

00:26:15.140 because you know, your claim can withstand it. Yeah. I, I've had the case where I've defended

00:26:20.660 and to, I guess, uh, to make sure that I'm talking about the specific situation. It's usually

00:26:28.500 a, uh, family law case, a divorce case that that bleeds over to child custody. And that's the most

00:26:36.660 horrible thing you'd ever go through. You have, you have kind of more of defined what is traditionally

00:26:42.980 the workplace style case. And that is, that's a tough case in a lot of ways, um, to bring in a

00:26:52.160 justice setting because most people don't have the resources, let alone the kind of intuitive instincts

00:27:01.380 to, to deal with it appropriately. So it's, it's interesting. And I just think that Amber Heard's

00:27:08.940 claim that, you know, this is necessarily going to be a lot more difficult for the next woman

00:27:12.800 does not work for me. Um, she didn't lose because of that. She, she lost because she lied to the jury

00:27:20.660 over and over. And it was very clear, even to people like you and me who were open-minded to

00:27:26.600 her abuse claims. You know, she's the one who poisoned that well and not Johnny Depp's fame.

00:27:32.980 If we could stick a fork in one axiom that kind of drew out, grew out of this, it would be

00:27:38.400 believe all anything because that is not the presumption. So that is turning the presumption on

00:27:45.640 its head and live in a country that is based on due process and a presumption of innocence. And

00:27:52.100 that it was scary how quick we came to abandoning that.

00:27:56.400 Yeah. Trust, but verify, or maybe just verify, just verify. Mark Garagos, always a pleasure.

00:28:03.700 Thank you so much.

00:28:04.580 Thank you.

00:28:05.960 All right. Coming up, Matt Walsh, really looking forward to bringing him to you and this discussion

00:28:10.740 about his new documentary. We've got a lot of great clips. It's called, what is a woman? See

00:28:16.680 if you can answer that for yourself during this quick break. We are so happy to welcome back to

00:28:26.400 the program, Matt Walsh for the past year. He's been hard at work on a new documentary called

00:28:32.700 what is a woman? It was just released last night and almost immediately the daily wire says its website

00:28:40.080 came under an attack in an attempt to disrupt the premiere. Subsequently, some users were not able

00:28:46.580 to watch it. And there is a reason they don't want you to see this film and that you must.

00:28:53.160 The daily wire reporting that this was still the biggest live streaming event in company history.

00:28:59.100 Now, Matt Walsh is known for his witty sense of humor. And at times the documentary is very funny.

00:29:04.460 He's just deadpan. He's like unbreakable. I listened to another podcast from the daily wire

00:29:10.980 with everybody sort of backstage. And the director was saying, don't play poker with Matt. And it's

00:29:16.820 100% true. But at its core, this film has a very serious message. And when you really are going to

00:29:23.060 want to hear, he interviews some of the top gender affirming, gender affirming doctors in America.

00:29:28.520 That's a thing. He investigates why children are being pushed toward hormone therapy and even

00:29:33.920 life altering surgeries, young children. And he looks into how the transgender movement

00:29:39.560 also affects women's rights. Matt, so good to have you back. How are you doing?

00:29:44.700 Doing great. Thanks for having me. Good to be here.

00:29:46.480 Congrats. Congrats on the release of the film. I'm glad you have your lumber lumberjack outfit on.

00:29:51.680 As always.

00:29:52.600 Yeah. I heard them mocking you for that on the backstage bit.

00:29:55.600 Um, so I didn't realize that you were doing this when you came on over the past year and it was a

00:30:00.380 very worthwhile effort. So when you were doing this film, what is a woman? It was before Ketanji

00:30:07.200 Brown Jackson was asked that question at her confirmation hearing. And what a perfect bookend

00:30:13.020 to your project, right? Like you never could have known that when your film was probably being edited,

00:30:19.080 the next Supreme court justice would refuse to answer that very question on the grounds that she's not

00:30:24.860 a biologist.

00:30:26.640 Yeah, it really, uh, it, it really worked out tremendously well. There are so many things

00:30:30.480 throughout filming this, uh, this documentary where it felt almost like divine intervention at

00:30:34.700 certain points where things felt fell into place. And at the same time, on the other end of the

00:30:38.320 spectrum, we're like confronting pure evil, uh, as well. So, um, yeah, we obviously couldn't have

00:30:44.500 planned that, but I also think that that's not entirely a coincidence because sort of as over the

00:30:48.200 last year. Um, and it hasn't just been me asking this question, but myself and others, uh, have been

00:30:54.620 asking this question of what, what is a woman as we've, as we've noticed that, um, it's a very

00:30:59.800 simple question that all by itself sort of brings the gender ideology house of cards come tumbling

00:31:07.160 down. So I think it's, it was kind of working its way into public consciousness. And then with that

00:31:11.700 Supreme court moment sort of exploded onto the scene. And then we announced our film as we were

00:31:16.120 already planning to do right on the heels of that. And, um, and so it really, really worked out,

00:31:21.200 I guess. It was a lot tougher for even the average Joe to answer than I would have expected. You know,

00:31:28.540 if you sit down from a gender affirming person, I guess I kind of expected some slipperiness.

00:31:32.940 I didn't expect it from regular old folks out there on the street, whether it was middle America or

00:31:38.840 Times Square. Here's just a bit of what Matt found when he came to New York city to ask people this

00:31:43.700 question. This is soundbite 14. What is a woman?

00:31:50.940 I don't want to assume, but you guys are all women. So how would you define it? Like in the

00:32:01.260 simplest terms? That is hard. Yeah, it is. It is a stumper. A woman is someone that likes to be

00:32:09.260 pretty and think of themselves as a delicate creature. I'm pretty and delicate. Okay.

00:32:16.360 I could be a woman too. Yes, you could. Defining womanhood is just a project of someone who

00:32:23.120 identifies as a woman. Yeah. But what, like, what do they identify? You see what I'm saying? What

00:32:26.960 do they identify as? They identify as a woman, but what is that? I honestly don't know.

00:32:31.700 It's amazing how hard people found that question.

00:32:39.860 Yeah, it really was. And that was one thing that was kind of a revelation to me in a way,

00:32:46.280 as we, and as you said, talking to the so-called gender affirming experts, we expected a lot of

00:32:51.200 this and evasiveness, and we got plenty of that. I didn't realize before we embarked on this journey,

00:32:56.820 just how, just how totally pervasive the confusion is. And this is all, of course, by design. I mean,

00:33:04.280 there are the most powerful institutions in the country are, are dead set on making people confused

00:33:10.300 about this. And so we encountered a lot of confusion. And by the way, another thing that

00:33:14.000 was interesting is that it was, it was, um, it was impossible for me to predict before we talked to

00:33:19.660 somebody, whether or not we would get an answer. Like you, you'd like to think that, well, if we're

00:33:23.840 talked to an older person, for example, that's somebody who didn't grow up with all this gender

00:33:27.500 ideology stuff. And so maybe we'll get a straight answer from them. You sort of expected, you expect

00:33:31.620 more of the confusion from the younger set. But what we found is it just, it stretches across all age

00:33:35.640 demographics, all demographics, period. A lot of confusion, but also, um, a lot of fear too.

00:33:41.700 There were a lot of people we talked to who aren't in the film because once they realized where the

00:33:46.900 questions were going, they said, I can't talk about this. I don't want to be on camera. And of course I would

00:33:52.320 say, well, you don't want, we're just talking about what a woman is. You can't answer that with

00:33:56.240 a camera. No, they can't because they're terrified. Um, because they think that, uh, you know, there's

00:34:00.640 going to be some terrible consequence if they talk about this at all. Um, Dr. Deborah, so is in the

00:34:06.340 film, love her. We've had her on the program. She's written a great book and she defines, she's somebody

00:34:12.580 who actually is a scientist and, and she says a woman is, and I've tweeted this out before after

00:34:18.020 Ketanji Brown Jackson, uh, whether you're a woman determined is determined by your gametes,

00:34:22.940 your gametes either are sperms or they are ovaries. They're, they're eggs, I should say.

00:34:29.840 And that determines whether you're a woman biologically. That's what determines a man

00:34:35.160 or a woman. If you've got sperm, you're a guy. If you've got eggs, you're a girl. I'm just going to

00:34:40.440 answer it. Unlike the people in your film. Um, so the, the experts that you went to were not

00:34:47.580 surprised that they waffled and they wiggled, but they were actually like offended at you just

00:34:55.120 kind of following up and you had your same aspect in your same manner that you have here. You're very

00:35:00.120 matter of fact. I was thinking, I like this guy. I like the way you do your interviewing. I'm

00:35:05.600 definitely more emotional. I'm more passionate, you know, half Italian, half Irish. It's that kind

00:35:11.420 of combo. I know you've got some Irish in there, but I like how you just didn't show your cards,

00:35:16.820 but still they were getting so angry. They were getting so annoyed at you. Um, especially

00:35:22.260 the blonde guy at the university of Tennessee, Patrick Zanka, right? Zanka. Okay. He did not

00:35:32.240 like you, Matt. I think you would, you would concede that. And, um, is this the one soundbite

00:35:38.420 19 where they kind of, Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Actually first let's just show him what,

00:35:43.480 let's show him trying to answer what is a woman and what he does to you. This is soundbite

00:35:46.360 16. You just really don't want to answer the questions. Do you? I, I came today very

00:35:52.740 willing and enthusiastic about answering questions about women's and gender sexuality studies,

00:35:57.220 which is what I do. So you wanted to answer questions about women's studies. And so shouldn't

00:36:01.340 the first answer you should be able to provide is what exactly is a woman? Well, it's it for

00:36:06.320 me, it's, it's actually a really simple answer. And that's a person who identifies as a woman,

00:36:10.220 but what are they identifying as? As a woman. But what is that? As a woman?

00:36:18.220 So circular and frustrating. Yeah. Around and around we go with these circular answers. That

00:36:23.900 was, that was really the answer from all of the so-called experts when it came down to it was

00:36:29.300 always woman. Is anybody who identifies as a woman? Well, what is that? What are they identifying as?

00:36:33.200 I mean, it really, it's actually a sincere question too, because when, when, uh, for example, a man

00:36:38.580 says, I identify as a woman, the point of asking what is a woman is it's a way of asking, well,

00:36:43.880 what do you mean? What are you trying to say about yourself exactly when you make that statement? Can

00:36:48.480 you just explain it a little bit? I want to know, I want to understand. And, uh, they do get offended

00:36:53.700 by it. And that's, you know, I talked about the fear from the, um, just average Joes on the street,

00:36:58.840 some of them. And, but the so-called experts, there was definitely fear also there because

00:37:03.640 they didn't want to answer questions. But from them, I got a lot of anger, uh, because they,

00:37:08.600 from their perspective, this is not how a conversation is supposed to go, especially

00:37:13.020 if they're talking to some flannel clad, you know, bumpkin like myself, I'm supposed to just

00:37:18.700 sit there while they make their proclamations and declarations. And I'm supposed to sit there

00:37:23.180 kind of slack jawed and just listening and nodding my head and saying, okay, okay. Um, the moment

00:37:27.560 you ask any question whatsoever, it's actually offensive because it's like, well, how dare you

00:37:31.440 question me? How dare you express skepticism in anything I'm saying? That that's another thing

00:37:35.740 that was a little bit of a revelation is that before we embarked on making this film, I knew that

00:37:41.920 the, what is a woman question would be a real stumper for some of these people, even though it

00:37:45.020 shouldn't be. But, um, what I didn't quite realize is that actually any question at all is a

00:37:51.300 stumper for them because they don't want to answer any sincere questions. If you're asking a

00:37:55.920 sincere question about their worldview, a sincere question as in there's some skepticism, you're

00:38:01.320 asking the question because you're, you're questioning what they're saying. Any question

00:38:05.080 along those lines, doesn't matter what it is, uh, they don't want to answer and they'll get very

00:38:08.920 angry that you are asking. Well, case in point, um, we didn't cut this one, but I watched it last

00:38:14.820 night with my husband and this was his favorite. His favorite was when you interviewed, uh, Congressman

00:38:19.600 Mark Takano, uh, Democrat of California, first openly gay person of Asian descent in Congress.

00:38:25.160 Uh, he ended the interview when you started asking about bathrooms and you could tell he was upset.

00:38:30.800 And he was saying like, I can't believe you're taking this to the bathroom place instead of

00:38:34.400 focusing on the basic rights of this life. So like for you to even bring up, what about women who

00:38:41.820 don't want to see a penis, a naked penis in the bathroom or in the locker room for you to even go

00:38:46.520 there was judged inappropriate. That's not even the proper question. It's about the trans person's

00:38:54.100 need to live a quote, normal life. Yeah. And I agree with your husband too, by the way,

00:38:59.720 that was actually my favorite, uh, interview to do just because it was so, uh, maybe it's my sadistic

00:39:04.400 side of me, but he was just so uncomfortable. And plus he's a politician. I'm not a big fan of

00:39:07.780 politicians. So, um, and you could tell me he was, we sat there and talked for a while and, uh, he,

00:39:12.180 he wanted to get up and leave the moment he realized that I was going to ask real questions and he

00:39:16.240 still sat there for a while before he finally did storm out. But the question that I was asking him

00:39:19.760 when he, when he did finally leave was that obviously totally legitimate and it was a policy

00:39:23.840 question, right? Because we were talking, he's an advocate of the Equality Act, which would be a

00:39:28.960 federal law that, um, just basically encodes gender ideology, imposes it, um, on a federal level across

00:39:36.680 all states and, and, uh, and localities. And that would mean among other things that now,

00:39:42.160 according to the federal law, uh, biological males must be, they have a, they have, they now have a

00:39:47.860 human rights to access female spaces. That's what the Equality Act would, would, uh, would decide,

00:39:54.500 would declare. And so my question was, well, what about, you know, I, I understand what you're saying

00:39:58.940 is that there are males who would feel uncomfortable if they're not given access to those spaces.

00:40:04.720 What about the women who are uncomfortable sharing those spaces with, with males? What about,

00:40:11.960 how do you factor that in? How do you weigh that? Totally fair question. And, uh, he didn't want to,

00:40:17.840 he didn't want to answer that at all. And then he started babbling about, uh, well, really this is a

00:40:22.020 matter of the right to life. No one is questioning that. There's no one is saying that trans people

00:40:26.860 don't have a right to live. What we're talking about is, uh, do, do, do women have a right to privacy

00:40:32.540 in these kinds of spaces. That's actually the question. Part of the fun of the film is seeing

00:40:36.580 the light bulb go off over these people's heads. Once they realize that they're talking to somebody

00:40:40.900 who might not share their agenda, who might not be there to totally celebrate, you know, the,

00:40:45.900 the stuff that they push and you're very fair to them. It's in no way like a hit job on them or an

00:40:51.700 ambush. Your questions are very benign. Um, but it's kind of fun to see them realize,

00:40:57.800 oh, wait, I might be in trouble. This guy might actually ask me these hard questions

00:41:01.360 questions and some didn't answer them. Some kept like that guy in Tennessee with the blonde hair

00:41:06.040 kept like putting it back on you. But what do you think? What do you think? Which is always a stall

00:41:10.540 tactic. Um, and one, one exchange in particular, I appreciated because I mentioned this recently on

00:41:15.500 the show years ago when, um, Chaz Bono danced on dancing with the stars. Remember this is, I can't

00:41:25.120 remember Chaz's name as a girl charity chastity. Um, but this is a, she was born female chastity.

00:41:32.700 She was born female. And then she decided to transition to male and went, went by Chaz and

00:41:37.220 she got a position on dancing with the stars. And Keith Abloh came on my show, Matt. And he said,

00:41:42.680 I don't think we should be affirming this kind of thing. And I gave him a hard time. I didn't think

00:41:49.200 that was particularly kind or supportive. And he did say something that I've, it's always stuck with

00:41:54.580 me. He said, there's a disease in psychiatry where, because you'll see where I'm going.

00:42:01.060 Somebody really feels like they need to have their arm chopped off and they will go from psychiatrist

00:42:05.760 to psychiatrist and doctor to doctor saying, I need you to chop off my arm. My arm doesn't belong.

00:42:11.460 I need to be missing this limb. And he said, we would, he said, if somebody came into my office

00:42:17.440 and said that I would say the same thing to somebody seeking a sex change, which is basically

00:42:21.960 no brother, you're not, I won't like, I'm not doing it. And lo and behold, you asked one of the

00:42:30.740 people in your piece. Now the name is Dr. Marcy Bowers. This person will look female and she says she's a

00:42:39.360 woman. But this is somebody who was born male and had, and has transitioned to female. She doesn't

00:42:46.080 like that. She wants you to say she is a woman. This is annoying. She's not a woman. There's a

00:42:51.120 difference between a woman and a trans woman. Happy to call you a trans woman. It's not the same thing.

00:42:55.220 She wouldn't, she doesn't allow for that. And listen to this exchange in soundbite eight.

00:42:59.520 I don't know if you've ever heard of people in the trans abled community. These are people who

00:43:06.060 are physically able-bodied, but feel like they should be disabled or identify as such. For example,

00:43:12.900 a man who has two arms, but feels like he should have one. If a man in this kind of marginalized

00:43:18.820 community was, went to the doctor and said, I want to have my arm cut off. Do you think that?

00:43:24.520 That doesn't have anything to do with gender identity. Well, it's someone's self-identity.

00:43:31.060 That's someone who has a, and I'll accept it as a mental diagnosis, a psychiatric condition. I don't

00:43:41.220 even pretend to know what aptomenophilia is all about, but somehow it's the idea that you're

00:43:46.860 fascinated or charmed by having a limb or part of a limb missing. Okay. I would say that's

00:43:53.020 that's, pardon my non-medical language, kooky. You don't see any? You think this is totally

00:44:02.040 irrelevant? Yep. Fascinating. Fascinating clip. Yeah. And of course the answer that Dr. Bowers

00:44:12.400 gives there about the trans-abled people is correct in a way. I mean, it's kooky. It's weird. It's not,

00:44:22.140 there's something wrong in someone's head. And so obviously there's something wrong psychologically

00:44:26.260 where you're having trouble accepting your body, who you actually are, then what you need is,

00:44:31.820 is psychological help. It's just that, you know, it is, it is, and I was pretty floored by that. Just

00:44:37.380 have that written off as well. It's just, that's weird. And so that's why we don't do that. Well,

00:44:42.620 okay. If a man comes in and says that he wants to have his genitals mutilated in pursuit of looking

00:44:48.620 more like a woman, what would we say about that? I mean, it's the, of course there's the connection

00:44:54.120 here where if there's a, if you are having trouble accepting yourself for who you are,

00:44:59.800 then either we can help your mind conform to physical reality, which I think we really should

00:45:06.600 do through counseling, or we could try to change physical reality to conform it to your

00:45:11.980 misperceptions. And, uh, on, in any other circumstance, we would say that, no, you,

00:45:18.280 you, you try to help the mind, not, not change the body, except when it comes to this.

00:45:23.400 Well, that's the thing. So it's like left untouched, virtually all of children going through a stint

00:45:30.840 of gender dysphoria will grow out of it. I mean, it's, I've heard Abigail Schreier said it was over

00:45:36.360 70%. I heard in your film over 80% from one of the doctors, the numbers are very, very high.

00:45:40.720 If you leave this kid alone who says, I think I'm actually a member of the opposite sex,

00:45:45.440 they'll grow out of it. It's a phase they'll grow out of. So there's, it's extremely dangerous and

00:45:51.540 fraught to start chopping off body parts and putting them on puberty suppressors and cross

00:45:57.100 gender hormones and so on. And yet not only are parents doing this, the entire medical community

00:46:02.680 has surrendered to this and supports it. Yeah, this is a, this is why we're talking about the,

00:46:09.400 the institutions in this country that have, that are conspiring. And that starts with the medical

00:46:13.380 community. That's another thing that comes through in the film, not just the film, maybe mentioned

00:46:17.460 the work Abigail Schreier has done as well. And her important book on this subject. And the really

00:46:23.040 terrifying thing, especially if you're a parent, um, and especially of, you know, kids who are still

00:46:28.300 living at home with you, you start to realize that you really can't, there are these, these

00:46:33.380 institutions you should be able to trust and you really can't, you can't trust the medical

00:46:37.460 institutions. You can't trust counselors, therapists, and that doesn't mean that they're

00:46:42.360 all bad, but what it does mean is that you can't just assume now that they're in this position.

00:46:46.840 And so therefore you can at least have some minimal level of trust. Uh, that's just, uh, that's,

00:46:52.080 that's gone. That's obliterated, uh, which just speaks to the need for more vigilance among parents.

00:46:57.920 Um, and, uh, especially if you're sending your kid to public school and they're having

00:47:01.820 conversations with our guidance counselors and everything else, you have to be very vigilant

00:47:06.180 and aware of what's, uh, what's being said. Well, that reminds me of what Jordan Peterson

00:47:10.000 told you, uh, in an interview in the film. And I'll, I'll let that be the tease to, to what's

00:47:15.780 coming up next. Jordan Peterson on affirming, on gender affirming care much, much more with

00:47:22.100 Matt Walsh right after this quick break.

00:47:27.920 I'm joined today by the daily wires, Matt Walsh, and we are talking about his brand new

00:47:32.820 documentary. What is a woman? Matt, we should tell people where they can find it.

00:47:38.420 Yeah, that's probably a good idea. Uh, what is a woman.com is, uh, we'd go to daily wire,

00:47:42.100 but what is woman.com we'll direct you there. But the film is on a daily wire and it's available

00:47:47.260 to watch right now. And is it, you know, has the coordinated attack to make it on downloadable

00:47:53.040 by whoever did that to you guys last night over like you can get on. Yeah, we've, we've, uh,

00:47:57.660 our, our tech team was working overnight to get it under control. And, uh, and I think

00:48:01.580 they've fixed the problem. So, um, and it was, it was something that look, we had, uh,

00:48:06.900 even in spite of that with this, with this DDoS attack, and I don't pretend to know exactly

00:48:10.640 what that is. They were, they were trying to explain it to me late last night and it wasn't

00:48:13.740 quite sinking in, but, um, it was definitely a malicious attack from somebody who doesn't

00:48:17.760 want anyone to see the film. And even in spite of that, we still had, as you mentioned,

00:48:21.440 uh, record numbers here at the company. And now it's, you know, the film is out there and,

00:48:25.580 uh, you know, these things with the left, right. It's like the daily wire is a news platform. You

00:48:30.340 have every day to put this thing on the air. Like what did they think they were going to accomplish

00:48:33.240 other than just drawing more attention to the film? Exactly. It always backfires because now

00:48:37.700 you're just, you're, you're making another story around the film and it's more excuse for us to talk

00:48:42.380 about it. So it, it, it never works in the end. Yeah. And it's not like the daily wire has the

00:48:47.360 platform for tonight and only tonight. It's like, you guys are there every day. It's always

00:48:52.700 downloadable, you know, like anyway, it's just silly. Somebody didn't think through their attack.

00:48:57.700 All right. So back in the subject of gender affirming care, this, this is definitely something

00:49:02.080 that Abigail Schreier calls attention to in her wonderful book, irreversible damage.

00:49:06.240 Talk to her many times on the show about how these poor parents who get a kid who is not gender

00:49:13.400 dysphoric at all coming home one day saying, Oh, now I think I might be the opposite sex.

00:49:18.280 And nine times out of 10, this is somebody who was dealing with maybe some social awkwardness,

00:49:23.420 maybe just the normal kind that comes from puberty that we all went through, maybe something worse.

00:49:28.240 A lot of these kids wind up being on the spectrum and lean into this as a way of being cool.

00:49:33.980 All of this has been documented. And this parent says, I'm going to go get him some help or her

00:49:38.280 some help. And they go to a psychiatrist. They're trying to do what's right. And they don't know

00:49:43.060 that they're basically feeding their kids like lambs to the slaughter, uh, into a system that

00:49:48.720 has a total agenda. And it's not about truth or help. It's about quote affirming whatever the kid

00:49:56.520 tells them. You're a girl who thinks you're a boy. You're a boy. You're a boy. You're a boy. You're a

00:50:00.460 boy. And you asked Jordan Peterson, the sage of Canada about this. And here's a little bit of what

00:50:06.180 he had to say. Soundbite 21. There's no such thing as a gender affirming therapist. That's a

00:50:13.000 contradiction in terms. Why? Because you don't affirm if you're a therapist. It's not your business

00:50:17.600 to affirm. You come to see me because there's something wrong. Maybe you come to see me because

00:50:23.000 a destructive element of you is wreaking havoc in your life. I'm on the side of the part of you that

00:50:28.020 wants to aim up, man. That's what I'm on the side of. Okay. Now, I don't know what that means in

00:50:33.080 your case, but we're going to talk about it. Am I going to affirm what you think? No, it's not up

00:50:38.840 to me to affirm it. You don't get a casual pat on the back from a therapist for your pre-existing

00:50:43.880 axiomatic conclusions. That's not therapy. That's a rubber stamp. He's so articulate.

00:50:52.000 He is. I mean, that whole conversation, that's one of many in the film that, I mean, obviously we

00:50:56.740 got a whole film we got to put together. So only small parts of these conversations can make it into

00:51:01.320 the film, but that's one where the entire conversation was just fascinating. And it was

00:51:06.100 also, he was towards the end of all of this. And it was just really a breath of fresh air to hear

00:51:14.480 some sanity, especially from someone who's been in this world and is an expert in the same world.

00:51:21.100 I mean, the very first person we talked to in the film and also in the actual timeline of shooting

00:51:25.280 the film was a gender affirming therapist who was ready to affirm me as a woman, because I said that

00:51:31.680 I like scented candles. And that's kind of like funny and you laugh about it because it's so absurd,

00:51:36.500 but like so many other things with gender ideology on the surface, it's funny because of the absurdity,

00:51:40.960 but then you look one layer deeper and you think, well, this is terrifying that, um, because I'm not

00:51:45.660 actually confused, but there are so many people that are confused and have issues. That's why they're in

00:51:50.240 therapy and you're ready to affirm somebody even just based on that. So it's actually not a joke

00:51:55.940 at all. And what, what, uh, what Jordan Peterson said is obviously correct. I mean, the whole idea

00:52:00.940 of affirmation, either from psychiatrists and the cycle or anybody in the therapy world,

00:52:08.600 or even from doctors as well, because we have gender affirming therapy. And then also now we're,

00:52:14.020 they tell us about gender affirming surgery. They don't say sex change surgery anymore. They say

00:52:18.300 gender affirming. Well, the whole idea that you, that if there's something that you have to have

00:52:22.580 something about you that allegedly already exists, that you have to go to a doctor or therapist to

00:52:26.840 affirm those things. I mean, if that's true and that's real and it already exists, then why does

00:52:31.880 it need to be affirmed? If you actually are a woman, let's say, then why does that need to be

00:52:36.160 affirmed from anyone? I, I'm, I know that I'm a man in spite of what some of the things that I said

00:52:41.380 in the film, I actually do know that. So I don't look to anyone. I don't care if anyone affirms that.

00:52:45.880 And if somebody walked up to me and said, well, you're a woman, it wouldn't cause any crisis in

00:52:50.480 my life. I would just laugh at them and say, well, you're confused. That's ridiculous.

00:52:54.480 So if some, if you feel, if there's something about you that you think needs to be affirmed,

00:52:59.220 then, um, then I think that that probably means that there's, that there's some confusion there.

00:53:04.480 And that's what the therapy should be. Well, and most of these gender affirming therapists or

00:53:08.480 doctors you talk to want to cut biological sex out of it entirely. Like your entire identity as a

00:53:15.800 woman or a man is 100% just about quote gender. And you sort of make the point in the film, like

00:53:21.420 what is that? That's a trait of like characteristics, you know, quote gender really for, you know,

00:53:27.720 the millennias we've been defining whether you're a woman or a man by your biological sex. That's,

00:53:33.640 you know, back to the gametes. And that's where I get, I don't know if I want to say upset,

00:53:40.300 but a little upset, but I, I, this is where I sort of have to part ways. Cause I know you don't use

00:53:44.780 the pronouns of per of a person who says that they're cross-gendered. I do fine. Everybody

00:53:49.400 makes their own choice on that, but I do draw the line at actually having to say that, for example,

00:53:56.560 Leah Thomas is a woman. Leah Thomas is not a woman. Leah Thomas is a biological man who transitioned

00:54:03.200 and is now a trans woman. And I will treat her with respect. I have a severe disagreement with her,

00:54:08.900 her swimming against biological women, but she's, she wants me to say she's an actual woman.

00:54:17.620 The woman you interviewed, Dr. Marcy Bowers, she said she didn't like it when you said she was a

00:54:23.760 transgendered woman. She just wanted you to just call her a woman. And maybe you would do that in

00:54:29.360 polite society. You know, maybe you're not looking to make that distinction in polite society. However,

00:54:33.340 when it comes to women's athletics, they're making us because it crosses over for them. Even there,

00:54:39.860 they want us to make no distinction between trans women and women. And we must, because otherwise the

00:54:46.680 whole system is on its head and it's grossly unfair. And it sort of puts the lie to the whole charade.

00:54:54.100 Exactly. And it's, it's, they, they want you to conform, you know, while they say that their own

00:55:01.360 self-perception should be respected, uh, your, your perceptions don't matter. Your perception has

00:55:07.820 to conform with what they're saying. That's what we, what's what we hear from trans activists and

00:55:11.320 from gender ideologues in general. Uh, it's, you need to conform your perception with, with, uh, with

00:55:17.800 what, with whatever they're saying, which before we even get into who's objectively right here, and

00:55:22.220 obviously we know who's objectively right. I mean, the people who acknowledge biological reality,

00:55:26.900 they are objectively right. But, but let's just say, let's, let's say, let's, let's live in the

00:55:31.620 world here for a second where there is no objective truth. And that's the world that all

00:55:35.060 the people, the experts I talk to, so-called experts, they all live in that world. Every

00:55:38.180 time I brought up truth to any of these people, they'd say, well, who's truth? What truth are

00:55:41.500 you talking about? Everyone has their own truth. Okay. So let's just go along with that for a second.

00:55:45.040 Everybody has their own truth. Well, well, hold on a second. Then, then can't, isn't it good

00:55:48.440 enough for me to say that in my, according to my truth, uh, Leah Thomas is a man. That's my truth.

00:55:53.780 That's, that's the truth that I've created. So why do I have to change my truth for your truth?

00:55:58.800 So even on their own terms, and I don't like talking about it that way, because again,

00:56:02.100 there's only one truth, but I'm only trying to communicate that even, even if you adopt

00:56:07.140 their premise, it still doesn't make sense. Um, even, even if you try to do that,

00:56:12.940 I want to get to Leah Thomas, because you got the first I've seen, um, anonymous, you know,

00:56:19.080 sort of in, in shadow interview with one of her teammates, with one of Leah Thomas's teammates.

00:56:24.420 And I'm going to play that one second, but to your point on, we're not allowed to have

00:56:29.160 a hold on reality anymore. You know, out of respect, if I go along with somebody's pronouns,

00:56:35.100 or if I don't draw a distinction, because there's, it's pointless in doing so. And most interactions

00:56:40.200 between an actual woman and trans woman, um, then that gets, it gets exploited in the field

00:56:45.660 of athletics, right? Like, aha, you let me in. And now I'm not going to let you draw that

00:56:49.560 distinction at all, even though I'm six foot three and I'm crushing the women who are five

00:56:52.720 foot one. Okay. So that we, we sort of talked about that, but, and you touch on this in the

00:56:57.400 film, it's crossing over. It's no longer just gender. You have, uh, one therapist in the film

00:57:03.320 who was sort of gender affirming, but is now like, I'm not sure I was doing the right thing.

00:57:07.400 And I'm not sure my profession is. I think that's a fair description. Um, talking about how people

00:57:12.140 now are like, I'm a cat. And then you have an interview with somebody who thinks she's a wolf

00:57:18.140 and you, you ask her, like, would you be willing to like sit, talk for us in the way that you talk

00:57:24.560 to the fellow wolves? And they said, I'm not comfortable doing that here. But can I tell

00:57:29.200 you this dovetails with the story I just heard? Somebody was just telling me about a company in the

00:57:34.900 Northeast that hired somebody out of college for well over $150,000 a year. This person came in,

00:57:42.900 a woman totally crushed the interview, came for the first day on the job, crushed it. Second day in the

00:57:47.540 job, showed up dressed as a tiger, a tiger had the ears, had the tail. And there's a real question about

00:57:57.680 now whether this person's fireable, whether everybody at the company has to go along with

00:58:04.740 the delusion. That's in the in the end, the way the company went. The company is basically telling

00:58:09.360 all the employees they have to treat this person like she's a tiger. Like, what do they have like

00:58:13.360 a litter box in the ladies room? Like, well, how does that work? How do you treat somebody like

00:58:16.500 they're a tiger? Um, and so it's crossing over, Matt, to places that right now we may find totally

00:58:23.040 absurd, but we would have said this about where we are in gender five years ago. Yeah, it's a lot.

00:58:29.740 This is the logical conclusion, if you can use the word logical, but it is. It's listen, if you get

00:58:34.640 rid of, uh, objective reality, which is, which is the objective here is to get rid of objective reality

00:58:41.060 and your own self-perception is valid because it is your perception. You know, if that's, if that's

00:58:47.400 the standard, then, then sure. Of course, all these, uh, trans species, everything else gets entered

00:58:52.820 into the equation. The only, the only thing that we've, uh, that we've kind of leapfrogged over,

00:58:56.860 uh, I think rather conspicuously is transracial. I mean, there are also people out there, uh, I'm

00:59:03.500 blanking on the name of the one, the one. Rachel Dolezal. Yeah. Dolezal. So, and there are others

00:59:07.640 too, that, uh, of, of people say, well, yeah, I'm white, but I kind of identify more as black.

00:59:11.480 And the interesting thing about that is that, is that, uh, that doesn't really make sense,

00:59:15.920 but that's a lot more valid. That has a, that has a better claim of validity, I would say,

00:59:21.780 than transgenderism. Cause at least with race, you know, we race, we know that race, like there

00:59:26.220 are, you give mixed races and that sort of thing. Um, and skin color can change. I mean, it can go

00:59:31.800 darker and go later. And race is also not a, race is not a totally binary structure where it's one

00:59:36.380 race and another race. That's not how it works. Whereas with sex, it does. So, um, that one is a

00:59:41.300 little bit less crazy actually, but we we've leapfrogged over that because, because that, that

00:59:44.620 interferes with a lot of the sort of racial agenda of the left. Um, but trans species, all the rest of it,

00:59:49.720 I think that gets, that enters into the equation. And this is part of this part of the pattern,

00:59:54.000 by the way, of, uh, we've seen this play out so many times over the decades of where conservatives

00:59:59.060 say, Hey, look, we're doing this now. Slippery slope. It's going to lead to this. And then the

01:00:03.380 left says, that's absurd. That's ridiculous. And then fast forward five years and, uh, look where

01:00:07.440 we are. And there we are meowing at our, at our colleagues in the workplace. Just, I mean,

01:00:12.940 who would do that? You know, I, I, I just feel like I'd look at that person. I'd be like,

01:00:16.120 I refuse. I refuse. This is where I draw the line. I'm not participating in your delusion

01:00:20.480 by, and maybe I get fired. I don't know. Because the Supreme court ruling on, you can't discriminate

01:00:25.540 against somebody or somebody based on gender ideology in the workplace. That doesn't cover

01:00:30.320 a fucking tiger. Like that doesn't, that's not a gender confusion. I don't even know what that is

01:00:37.180 other than like a massive attempt to set up a basis for a lawsuit.

01:00:41.160 Right. I mean, but it, it, it does cover tigers because what is the word gender even mean? I mean,

01:00:47.500 that's another thing I try to get to in the film. What do you even talk about when you say gender?

01:00:51.300 Jordan Peterson has always had the most lucid answer to that. He said, he doesn't even need

01:00:54.560 the word gender, but if you're going to use it, what you're really talking about is just temperament

01:00:57.900 and personality. That's like, that's usually what people are trying to get at when they talk about

01:01:01.200 it, which is why let's just use the word personality and not even talk about gender. But because it's

01:01:05.760 this, uh, it's this vague, ambiguous catch all term and anything could be a gender now. I mean,

01:01:12.080 there are people, uh, you know, libs of, of tick tock on Twitter is always digging up these videos

01:01:17.220 on, uh, from tick tock of people that say, Oh, I'm, uh, you know, I identify as the gender of a

01:01:22.600 cloud or a, my gender is a, is a number or a color, all kinds of things. They had a cake. Somebody

01:01:28.140 said she was a cake gender the other day. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Cake gender. Yeah.

01:01:31.720 So, I mean, really this is going to come up in the courts because what do you do? First of all,

01:01:37.240 for any employer out there, check the references because if this, if this gal really has been living

01:01:41.960 as a tiger, somebody in her history will know. So check the references. If her, if her, uh, if her

01:01:47.500 reference is like a zookeeper, then, uh, she should go get a job in like a pet store. You're like, don't

01:01:52.780 work at a big corporate firm. I mean, what if, what if it's a law firm? Like what next thing you know,

01:01:58.980 like you think you're hiring a trial lawyer and you got to send her in there in the

01:02:01.440 front of a jury to be a cat lawyer? I don't, I don't know. It's, I don't know where it's going,

01:02:06.460 but it's no place. Good. All right. Let's talk about Leah Thomas. Cause I was fascinated that you

01:02:09.840 got one of her teammates. Um, this is the first, again, I've, I've seen one of the teammates actually

01:02:15.240 on cam, but incognito, and it's absurd that they have to do it, but I understand why she's worried

01:02:19.880 about being called transphobic and so on. Uh, and here's what she had to say about swimming with

01:02:25.600 Leah Thomas and at the UPenn swim team. Soundbite five. If you even bring up the fact that Leah

01:02:31.860 swimming might not be fair, you were immediately shut down this being called a hateful person or

01:02:37.260 transphobic. But there's never any conversation. The coaches don't sit everyone down and acknowledge

01:02:43.700 what everyone's really upset about. So Penn actually brought in people high up in the athletic

01:02:47.980 department to talk to us. They brought in someone from like the LGBTQ center. They brought in someone

01:02:52.780 from the psychological services. So you you're upset about what's happening. And so you need

01:02:57.960 psychological help. Yeah. And they told us in this meeting, they said, look, we understand there's

01:03:02.160 an array of emotions, but Leah swimming is a non-negotiable. However, we can help you make

01:03:07.540 that. Okay. That's what we're here for. So you're anonymous for this interview. Why did you decide that

01:03:12.880 you can't have your face out there saying these things? They've made it pretty clear that if you

01:03:17.300 speak up about it and you say anything negative, that like your life will be over in some way. Like

01:03:21.780 you'll be lost all over the Internet as a transphobe if you come out and then you'll never be able to

01:03:26.140 get a job. Sick, Matt. Sick. I mean, yeah. And, you know, the left, they love to use the term

01:03:34.900 gaslighting is one of one of the many massively overused terms in our in public discourse today.

01:03:40.820 But that's that right there is gaslighting. What what those girls were subjected to, those women

01:03:46.320 were subjected to is gaslighting, where they're being told that, you know, you're you are the one with

01:03:50.840 a problem. You're the one who needs counseling if you don't want to be in the locker room with

01:03:55.900 somebody with a penis like we're going to now now now it's you. Now you're the issue. And first,

01:04:00.880 we're going to bring in LGBT activists to harangue and scold you. And if you still have a problem,

01:04:06.860 then you can you know, you can go to counseling. That's that's a one version of this kind of thing.

01:04:12.140 There have also been recent reports, even in a more severe way of what women in women's prisons are

01:04:19.420 being subjected to, where they're allowing men into these women's prisons, like taking taking

01:04:23.880 violent criminal men and locking them into jail cells with women. Many of these women have

01:04:31.160 histories of sexual abuse. And the few women who have had the opportunity to speak out about it,

01:04:37.740 because the thing is, if you're in a prison, you're not going to have very many opportunities. But the

01:04:40.600 few that have had the opportunity have said it's the same kind of thing, but worse, where, OK, if you

01:04:44.540 have a problem with it, then you can have counseling and we'll put you in protective custody, which means

01:04:49.000 solitary confinement, cruel and unusual punishment. It's like a constitutional violation. And this is

01:04:54.920 what's happening at the behest of the gender ideologues. The irony of refusing to look at someone

01:05:03.000 like Leah Thomas and say, you might need some therapy. You're going through something. You might

01:05:10.120 need to work this out with a professional. They won't do that. But they will look at the biological

01:05:15.620 women, the so-called cis women, and say, you're going to need therapy to get over these feelings

01:05:21.020 you're having, which are not appropriate feelings. You need to not be upset about this. And therefore,

01:05:25.900 here's a doctor. Only the women having actual upset reactions to swimming against a biological man

01:05:33.660 get the therapy they allegedly so badly deserve. OK, so here's Leah Thomas, by the way. We didn't get

01:05:40.540 to play this earlier. She responded, not exactly to this because this wasn't out yet, but the teammates

01:05:46.920 have spoken out anonymously in print and so on before. And Leah Thomas gave an interview to ABC

01:05:52.340 this week, and she was asked about the upset teammates. And here's her response. Sot three.

01:05:57.420 Women who signed the letter anonymously said that they absolutely supported your right to

01:06:03.420 transition, but they simply think it's unfair for you to compete against cisgendered women.

01:06:09.000 You can't go halfway and be like, I support trans women and trans people, but only to a certain point

01:06:18.040 where if you support trans women as women, and they've met all the NCAA requirements, and then I

01:06:26.980 don't know if you can really say something like that. Trans women are not a threat to women's sports.

01:06:33.420 OK, then I won't go halfway. Then I'll stay on zero and I won't meet you halfway at all because

01:06:40.200 I'm not going to 10. She like the nerve of that matter for her. How does she know she's not a

01:06:45.260 woman? She doesn't get to say after 20 years living as a man that now she's a woman and that

01:06:48.520 anybody objecting isn't really supportive of trans. Like, did you swim in the pool like all of

01:06:53.880 your teammates did when they were going through puberty and they started getting their periods and

01:06:57.900 it's a terrifying event for a young girl to get into a damn pool because you don't know what's

01:07:01.140 going to happen? You haven't managed things yet. Did you swim with breasts growing off of you

01:07:05.240 and trying to figure out how to move your arms and still win? No, you didn't. You went overnight

01:07:09.920 from male to female. And your accomplishments on the women's leaderboard are not that of a woman.

01:07:15.460 They're not. But she says we're not allowed to meet her halfway just to be polite or to be kind

01:07:20.620 or to try to be loving and respectful. It's zero or 10.

01:07:23.500 Yeah. And as far as that goes, I actually, that part I agree with for the reason that you just

01:07:29.420 said. Yeah. Don't go halfway. So I'm not going to go, I'm not going to go halfway in, uh, in

01:07:34.220 affirming and, and coddling. I'm going to go 0% of the way at all. I'm just not, I, I'm not going to

01:07:39.840 play the game at all. And that's why I also think, I mean, the, the, the women who signed this letter

01:07:43.600 and I don't blame them for me, they're put in this situation and not, not, uh, not a situation that

01:07:48.180 they should be in, but, but they were put in the situation, handling it the best they could. But

01:07:52.420 you know, if I'm signing a letter like that, I'm not going to say anything about, Hey, we support

01:07:57.260 you and your identity. I'm not going to do any of that whatsoever because that's not your job.

01:08:01.620 You know? And I also think by the way that, look, I have, I have a lot of sympathy for,

01:08:06.120 especially the kinds of situations that Abigail Schreier writes about of adolescent girls who get

01:08:12.860 swept up into this and become indoctrinated and everything else. And they've got institutions

01:08:18.140 that are, that are dedicated to making them confused. I got a lot of, I have a lot of sympathy

01:08:22.940 for them. I have to tell you that Leah Thomas, uh, I just, I really have no sympathy at all. I,

01:08:28.900 what I see here is just raging narcissism where nobody else matters, but him, he was also asked

01:08:36.860 in that same interview, uh, about, well, do you have, you know, a biological advantage? And the answer

01:08:41.760 was dancing around it, evading. And then finally, well, this, this makes me happy. I'm happy.

01:08:47.840 Yes. That's exactly right. It's not. So, so that's it. That's all that matters. As long as

01:08:52.040 you're happy, it doesn't make it. No one else, no one else rates, no one else counts. It's all

01:08:56.220 about your happiness. Um, I just don't, I'm not going to excuse that because someone is allegedly

01:09:02.660 gender confused. That is just narcissism and it's totally unacceptable. Yeah. And I think that's the

01:09:07.760 way it should be, uh, it should be confronted. I couldn't agree with that more. I mean, we're

01:09:11.600 listening to Leah Thomas talk about how happy Leah is now and how joyful and amazing it was to win all

01:09:19.640 these races. Leah Thomas was 554 when she was swimming as Will Thomas, just the year before

01:09:26.580 she joined the women's team 554. Now she's number one. I'm sure she's very happy. What about the women

01:09:32.120 who got, who didn't make the team because she took their spot, who didn't get a medal because she took

01:09:36.300 it. Um, I mean, this is like, I could go swim against my eight-year-old Thatcher tomorrow and

01:09:40.860 I'd crush him. It doesn't make me a good swimmer. That's essentially what's happening.

01:09:46.140 Yeah. And, and by the way, your, your own happiness and joy. I mean, if you're a normal,

01:09:50.060 decent person, then the fact that what you're doing is making everyone else around you uncomfortable

01:09:57.460 and detracting from their own happiness and causing all this problem, that, that should actually

01:10:02.640 make you less happy. Like that should affect you in some way. If you care about other

01:10:06.160 people, you know, it's like in any, in any social situation, if you are doing something,

01:10:10.580 you see that everyone's uncomfortable. It doesn't always mean that what you're doing is wrong, but,

01:10:14.200 but, uh, it's a pretty good, it's a, it's a hint anyway. It should be something that makes you stop

01:10:17.820 and reflect. Everybody here is uncomfortable with this. I'm the only happy one. Is there something

01:10:22.780 wrong? But I guess if you, uh, if you just don't care about what other people feel at all,

01:10:27.980 if you don't, if other people don't matter to you, then, uh, that just, that calculation isn't made.

01:10:32.160 Yeah. But everybody else better respect you and they better support your happiness.

01:10:36.700 You don't have to care about them, but they better respect your happiness or you'll call

01:10:40.980 them all sorts of names. And it doesn't matter how much work you've done for the LGBTQ community

01:10:45.100 that you don't have to be Matt Walsh to be called a bigot. You can be Martina Navarrola.

01:10:49.060 And if you're not at 10, you're going to get those names. Um, you importantly get into the

01:10:56.360 dark side of all this, you know, and the film, I mentioned the intro it's, it is funny. It's

01:11:00.600 genuinely funny because Matt's funny in like this great sort of quiet way, but it takes a serious

01:11:06.640 turn because this is a serious matter. It's genuinely no laughing matter when you get to what

01:11:10.580 they're really doing to our kids. And, um, you get into some of the consequences. And this is why I

01:11:15.820 love, um, Dr. Miriam Grossman. She's connected with UCLA. She's the voice of reason, right? Of

01:11:21.920 the whole piece. That's, that's the, the woman who's the voice of reason. And she explains,

01:11:27.460 you guys got to watch the film. It just gets into everything you want to know about this issue in

01:11:31.720 such depth and, and in a way you can understand and with humor where appropriate and with gravity

01:11:36.740 where that's more appropriate. But Miriam Grossman explains where this came from, where the trouble

01:11:43.880 came from. And I don't think anybody has any clue how nefarious and evil the two guys whose world

01:11:54.880 philosophy, um, were, whose ideas are now everywhere, whose ideas are now mainstream.

01:12:02.220 They haven't gone back and figured out who's influencing us. So can you talk a little bit

01:12:05.840 about that? Yeah, that's, um, those are, that's something that I hope there's a lot. I hope people

01:12:10.980 take away from this film, but I hope that's a one big piece and you could do, and somebody should do,

01:12:17.040 maybe I'll do it or someone else to do it, an entire separate film, just about these two guys

01:12:20.960 and the origins of, uh, of gender ideology, um, and the sexual revolution generally. So,

01:12:27.460 uh, talking to Miriam Grossman, she gets into, you know, Alfred Kinsey and, um, and John Money.

01:12:33.140 And these are both kind of sexologists, psychologists, uh, around the same time, mid,

01:12:38.320 you know, early to mid 20th century. And they're not the only guys responsible, but they're probably

01:12:44.120 the two main, kind of like the godfathers of gender ideology. And Alfred Kinsey, you kind of,

01:12:50.220 so we start with him and he's a little bit earlier. And, um, his whole deal was to, you know,

01:12:56.560 one of, one of, one of his primary goals was to sexualize children. Now he said that children

01:13:02.220 were sexual from birth. They were all sexual creatures, cradle to grave. Um, and not only

01:13:07.900 that, he was very invested in this idea that, um, kind of like normal, healthy, so-called

01:13:13.540 traditional relationships are, uh, it's all, it's all a fake. I mean, really, when you get down to it

01:13:18.840 and you really talk to people, everybody's kind of a deviant and a pervert. And in order to do that,

01:13:23.200 he would go out and interview, he would do these interviews with what he claimed were just sort of

01:13:26.320 cross sections of America. But then it turns out that actually he's interviewing pedophiles.

01:13:30.100 He's going to prisons and talking to sex offenders. And then from there, he's extrapolating these wild

01:13:34.400 conclusions about, about sexuality generally. But the most, um, by far the most sinister thing he did

01:13:40.840 was, uh, he would, uh, in his book, um, sexual behavior in the human male, he has an infamous chart

01:13:48.900 in there where he documents what he says are the orgasms of children, including all the way down to

01:13:55.820 five months old. And he says he got this data from, uh, from pedophiles that he interviewed and

01:14:01.760 he would have them raping children and documenting the experience. And then they'd sit down and they

01:14:06.820 would talk about it. Um, so you start with that sexualizing children, children are sexual from

01:14:12.900 birth and we can see a lot of that. I mean, what we, what we know is comprehensive sex ed. That's it

01:14:17.220 all starts with Alfred Kinsey and the fact that we're doing, you know, what they're trying to stop

01:14:21.680 in Florida of having sex ed for kindergartners. Well, that all starts with Kinsey. Then you go to

01:14:26.300 Alfred, uh, to, to John Money rather, and he's the guy who coined, he coined the term gender ideology,

01:14:31.940 um, um, you know, gender identity, sexual orientation. He coined this, the whole idea that we have a

01:14:38.700 gender distinct from our sex starts with John Money. Um, and that's what he believes. And he tried

01:14:43.800 this theory out on two young boys called the Reimer twins. Um, and it took one of them and, uh,

01:14:50.060 transitioned them, you know, to encourage the parents to transition the boy to a girl

01:14:54.000 and to just raise him as a girl. And the whole thing was a total disaster. Both of the boys,

01:14:59.380 as they grow older, their lives are destroyed. They both end up committing suicide. Um, it's just

01:15:04.700 a dark and terrible story. And that is right there, the beginning of gender ideology. And it started that

01:15:12.780 way. Um, just with death and despair. I did not know any of that. And I definitely have heard of money

01:15:17.900 and that twin experiment, one of the twins had a horrible thing happened during this circumcision

01:15:23.060 and the parents were in a panic and basically lost his genitals. And this doctor quote unquote

01:15:31.140 said, well, we'll just raise him as a girl. You'll, you'll raise him as a girl, used him as a human

01:15:36.080 guinea pig and convinced the parents this would be in the child's best interest. Whereas his identical

01:15:40.780 twin, I guess, I guess they were identical. It doesn't matter. Uh, anyway, yeah, he was,

01:15:45.880 he was raised still as a boy and you have very gripping pictures in the documentary of these two

01:15:53.160 as they were growing up and can only imagine what they were going through. And you include a clip.

01:15:57.880 I've seen this before of the twin who was raised as a girl who was actually a boy on Oprah. He went on

01:16:06.580 Oprah's show in 2000. He had already gone back to being male, you know, saying I never, I never should

01:16:13.200 have been treated like a girl or raised as a girl. Uh, and this is obviously, uh, not long, not long

01:16:18.660 before he took his own life. Here's David Reimer on Oprah. I never quite fit in. Uh, uh, well,

01:16:28.980 the girls would do their things with their Barbies and things like that. And that wouldn't interest me

01:16:36.220 and, uh, things such as trucks and, uh, building forts and, uh, you know, get into the, uh, fist

01:16:44.220 fight and climbing trees. That's the kind of stuff that I liked, but it was unacceptable. So I'd never

01:16:48.840 as a girl, as, as a girl, I had no place to, to fit in. Hmm. The damage that guy did is everlasting.

01:16:58.500 Yeah. And we have to realize is that John money, the reason why he said this would work is that he,

01:17:03.240 he said that gender is a social construct. It's all about your environment. And so if that's true,

01:17:10.600 then it should be pretty simple to, uh, take a young boy who, as you mentioned, already suffered

01:17:15.180 a horrible accident, um, that damaged his, uh, the child's genitals and then, and then perform the sex

01:17:21.760 change surgery. And then just raise the child. If you, if you raise the child in a, in an environment

01:17:27.540 that affirms him as a girl and gender is a social construct, then that, that should be it. You

01:17:34.100 should just be a girl, but it didn't, it didn't take hold because it turns out that there's more

01:17:38.100 to being a boy than, um, you know, what you wear and what people tell you. There's a deep inner truth

01:17:43.280 there that this child recognized even as he grew, grew older, but the damage that was done. And by the

01:17:49.140 way, you know, part of, of John money's experiment, this was not a one-time thing. These boys were brought

01:17:54.400 back to John money, uh, throughout their childhood. He performed sexual experiments on them. It's just

01:18:00.860 a horrendous, awful story. And it's also not a coincidence by the way, that both these guys,

01:18:07.240 Kinsey and money, the godfather of gender ideology, they were both, uh, they were both child sex abusers.

01:18:13.200 You know, this is, um, this was a big part of their, of what they did. My God, this is why the film is

01:18:19.480 so important. I really hope people will go and download it. What is a woman after this? We're

01:18:25.500 going to get into puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, and parental rights. Matt Walsh is

01:18:31.940 staying with us. What is Lupron and talk a little bit about what they're putting kids on right now

01:18:40.940 that parents need to know about. Well, Lupron is used as a so-called puberty blocker. And just even

01:18:46.020 that name, it's just like with so many other things with gender ideology, you can't even talk

01:18:49.520 about them because the terms you're using are misleading intentionally. So, so puberty blocker

01:18:55.700 as if it just blocks puberty and then you can block it and then stop taking it and puberty will pick up

01:19:00.900 again and there's no problem and there's no lasting side effects, which is all just totally bogus. But

01:19:05.180 this is the drug that they're giving to kids to quote unquote block puberty. Um, but it's, it's being

01:19:11.040 used off label. It was originally, I believe like a cancer drug and it has also been used in fact to

01:19:18.040 chemically castrate sex offenders. Um, because that's, that's what the drug does. It chemically

01:19:23.500 castrates by definition. The drug performs a chemical castration, uh, which is why they'd be

01:19:28.920 given to sex offenders. This is what they are giving to kids. I mean, they are in fact, 100%

01:19:34.260 of fact here. They are chemically castrating little kids, um, with this, with this drug Lupron. And

01:19:40.880 it's, uh, we talked before about the medical establishment. Well, the medical establishment,

01:19:46.100 the, um, you know, the, the, all the different pediatric associations and everything else, they all

01:19:50.940 say, they all endorse it. They all say that this is, that this is affirmative care and that it's healthy

01:19:54.880 and everything else. Well, uh, you decide, does it sound healthy and affirmative to chemically

01:19:59.000 castrate kids? I don't, I don't think so. You know, I have a, an endocrinologist because I'm

01:20:03.700 getting old. And once you hit 50, your doctor sends you out to all these specialists. So you can,

01:20:07.580 you can see what the problems may be. And I asked her about this, you know, like puberty blockers

01:20:13.380 and all that, not for my own kids, but just, I was curious, like how easily do you give out those

01:20:17.360 prescriptions? And she said she wouldn't do it for anybody under 18. And which I think is the right,

01:20:22.240 you know, even 18 is young, of course, but at least you're an adult, you know, you don't,

01:20:25.620 you don't do that. You don't give medicines like this to children. They're already banning it now,

01:20:29.280 right. In Sweden and Finland, I think banning, um, at least cross gender hormones, maybe puberty

01:20:34.700 blockers too. Maybe, you know, but I want to play the audience a bit on that from the film because

01:20:40.340 fearless as ever you, you go right there. You're not afraid of asking. I think this clip may start

01:20:44.940 with our, with our good doctor, Miriam Grossman. She's in this at least at some point, along with

01:20:50.280 some others. Watch. Is Lupron chemical castration? Yes. We're giving it to pedophiles, aren't we?

01:21:01.620 We're giving it to people that are dying and we're giving it to kids telling them that they were born

01:21:05.720 in the wrong body and it's completely safe. One of the drugs used is Lupron, right? Which

01:21:09.900 has actually been used to chemically castrate sex offenders. You know what? I'm not sure that we

01:21:17.140 should continue with this interview because it seems like it's going in a particular direction.

01:21:21.420 Well, you're a medical professional. I am a medical professional. So you don't want to talk about

01:21:25.320 the drugs that you give to kids or? Again, I'm a physician and I use medication. You're choosing

01:21:33.540 exploitive words, drugs I give to kids. I'm choosing a word that was in a dictionary. That's not a correct

01:21:40.220 term for puberty blocking. I could like look it up on my phone, but I'm pretty sure if I looked it up,

01:21:43.940 you can look it up on your phone. It says medical definition, the administration of a drug to bring

01:21:49.220 about a marked reduction in the body's production of androgens and especially testosterone. And I'm

01:21:53.940 saying as a pediatrician who takes care of hundreds of these kids, when you use that terminology,

01:22:00.360 you were being malignant and harmful. I mean, there are some who would say that giving

01:22:04.460 chemical castration drugs to kids is malignant and harmful. It's about the context of caring for a

01:22:10.220 child and seeing the suffering that kids can have that have not been in affirmative home

01:22:18.600 situations. What do you say to the claim that, well, we have to do this for these kids, because if we

01:22:24.560 don't, they'll kill themselves. They'll resort to drugs and self-harm. A lot of them were hurting

01:22:31.220 themselves. A lot of them were suicidal before they even discovered gender. That is never part of the

01:22:37.440 discussion. And they say, what would you rather have? A living daughter or a dead son? If this is

01:22:45.600 what the professionals are saying, it's terrible emotional blackmail. Matt, is Lupron something they

01:22:53.440 give to boys and girls or just boys? Um, I mean, it's given to, it's given especially to boys and

01:23:02.300 if you look at the medical definition, which I, which I provided to, uh, to, uh, Dr. Forcier there

01:23:09.160 is the name of the pediatrician. It is, that's a marked reduction in the body's production of androgens

01:23:13.800 and especially testosterone. So that's, it's, it's a reduction in the, in the testosterone. Um, even if it

01:23:20.040 was quote unquote temporary, which again is very misleading because there are long-term effects of

01:23:26.260 giving these drugs, it still counts even then as, uh, as chemical castration. And in terms of the,

01:23:31.520 of the claim, you know, it comes to this claim of all it's temporary and there are no long-term effects.

01:23:35.700 We talk about that in the film as well. And the reality is that we are, we, we know quite a bit

01:23:41.360 about how these drugs affect kids. And even based on what we know, um, it's pretty clear. It's pretty

01:23:47.300 clear that, uh, that sorry, I'm just on the air. It's pretty clear that, um, that there are long-term

01:23:52.860 effects, but also we've never, we've never given these drugs to an entire generation of kids before.

01:23:58.760 So we don't have, um, the basis for any kind of study. This is all, this is experimental. These

01:24:04.820 kids are, you know, Guinea pigs. And there are States in the union now, as I think California is

01:24:11.940 one of them where you can, your kid can sneak off campus during the middle of the day to go get

01:24:16.940 these hormones or these pills. And they don't even have to tell your parents about it. They'll just

01:24:21.720 do it with the school's consent. The parents know nothing about it, which is very dark. Like that's

01:24:28.120 now you're really abusing my child or allowing abuse to take place during the school day. When I

01:24:33.500 think she's studying English without my consent or even a heads up to me, parental rights in this whole

01:24:40.960 thing, it would be kind to say they've been forgotten. They've been actively buried and

01:24:46.180 destroyed. Well, parents are a threat. I mean, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's worse than just ignoring

01:24:52.260 parental rights. It's actually, cause that's one thing that's bad enough. It's bad enough in and of

01:24:56.480 itself to say, well, we're not worried about what the parents say. Um, it's actually worse than that

01:25:01.420 because what they're saying is that the, the parents are a toxic, harmful element. And so, um, we,

01:25:10.040 we, we have to protect the kids from the parents. And that's what, that's the way that a lot of

01:25:15.220 schools are approaching this. This is what they're saying to the kids. Look, that's, that's why I say

01:25:19.680 gender ideology is a, is a cult and it functions like a cult in so many ways. And what's one of the

01:25:24.840 first things that a cult does? Like if you're actually going to join a cult, if you're going

01:25:28.360 to become a Scientologist or something, one of the first things that they do is they isolate you

01:25:32.820 from people that are closest to you. They turn you against your own family. They want, they don't want

01:25:37.320 you to have any connections outside of this world. And it's the same thing with gender ideology.

01:25:41.700 The first thing they do with the kids is, uh, cut them off from parents, any friends who are not

01:25:47.540 quote, quote, affirmative and, and isolate them in this world where there won't be any of these sort

01:25:52.800 of outside influence. I mean, we talked about Jordan Peterson before that's one of the ways in

01:25:57.680 which he first came to international fame is Canada was passing a law that would have made it,

01:26:03.300 that did make it a required thing for you to use somebody's pronouns of choice.

01:26:08.180 And he spoke out against it saying, that's insane. I shouldn't be facing penalties for not

01:26:14.440 using somebody's gender pronouns. And Canada has gone off the reservation in more ways than one.

01:26:20.120 You scored an interview with the dad. This was big news when it happened,

01:26:24.680 who lost custody of his child over this. Can you set that story up?

01:26:28.460 Yeah, this is, this is in, we have to remember that in Canada, I believe that this case started

01:26:34.140 actually before this law was even passed. Yeah. He's still somehow being, uh, they're trying

01:26:39.800 anyway to kind of, uh, penalize him according to this law. But now in Canada, it's considered

01:26:44.660 conversion therapy. You know, conversion therapy is, is outlawed in Canada and they've already done

01:26:51.020 this in a lot of States in this country. Now, when you, when you think, when you hear conversion

01:26:54.520 therapy, you think that, uh, what they want you to think of is like electroshock therapy,

01:26:59.840 all this kind of, all this kind of sinister evil stuff that they're doing to kids to change their

01:27:05.960 sexuality. And that's not what they mean. Um, conversion therapy now, especially in Canada

01:27:09.740 is like, if you're, if your daughter says, I'm a boy and you do not use male pronouns, then you are

01:27:16.640 guilty of conversion therapy because you're trying to convert your daughter into a girl, which she

01:27:23.140 already is. You know, if you, if you are affirming someone in the identity that they actually are,

01:27:27.860 you are converting them, which is totally backwards and absolutely insane. But that's,

01:27:31.420 that's what they're doing in Canada. And so there was a one father that we talked to is out on bail

01:27:36.280 right now, um, in the middle of this custody dispute and everything else. And he was actually

01:27:40.700 arrested for failing to affirm his daughter as a boy, failing to use the, you know, the, the preferred

01:27:47.940 pronouns. Uh, this is, this is actually happening. It's happening in Canada and it's making its

01:27:51.620 way to the United States too. I mean, what a nightmare. Here's a clip soundbite 20.

01:27:58.940 My ex-wife brings my child into BC children's hospital. I get a call less than an hour into

01:28:04.780 that appointment is that they were going to pump her full of cross sex hormones within the hour.

01:28:08.880 And I put a halt to that. I said, no, there was no evaluation. They were just going to do it right

01:28:14.140 away. They agreed to stop for the moment. They figured, well, let's get the dad on board too. This

01:28:18.600 is all going to be better. Let's just get everybody on the same page. I said, it's not going to happen.

01:28:22.500 So I get a letter from BC children's hospital in December of 2018. And it says that under the BC

01:28:28.320 infants act, they will start injecting my child with cross sex hormones. And I have two weeks to

01:28:33.160 respond with legal action if I so choose. And he's lost, right? I mean, so far they've gone

01:28:39.880 against him at every turn and he no longer has custody of his child. Yeah. And he's fighting back.

01:28:46.460 He's fighting heroically. Um, but imagine, imagine that being presented with that choice,

01:28:53.540 like you can either lie to your child and abandon them to this delusion, which so often leads to

01:29:02.440 despair and suicide, by the way. So you can do that. Um, or you can never see them again. Like

01:29:08.960 those are your two choices. And that's, those, those are the choices that parents are being given

01:29:12.020 in, uh, in Canada. It's like, it's, it's unthinkable. And I was really surprised and

01:29:18.700 encouraged by, you know, that father talking to him. He had a lot of, uh, resilience and not nearly

01:29:24.920 as much bitterness as I would have. I mean, I would just be, uh, I would be able to barely be able to

01:29:30.560 speak about it because I'd be so, so angry, but he's, uh, he's fighting back. And, um, this is what we

01:29:34.980 need parents to do. One of the things I love about Abigail's book, uh, irreversible damages. She offers

01:29:40.380 real solutions for parents who are going through this. And they're not necessarily for somebody

01:29:44.860 who's got like a very young child who seems to have gender dysphoria. Typically it affects only

01:29:50.260 males. Like historically, it was only a thing that would affect males, but she, her book is more about

01:29:55.680 the sort of that, the contagion, the craze that's sweeping teenage girls right now. And she does talk

01:30:02.500 about it as a contagion based on the work of this Brown university, um, researcher, Lisa Lippman,

01:30:07.920 who we've had on the show too. And Abigail makes the point that virtually all of these young girls

01:30:14.080 in particular, you will find spent hours and hours on YouTube, on Reddit, on Tik TOK. And there are all

01:30:20.580 sorts of rabbit holes. They can go down that show them exactly what they quote need to do to be affirmed

01:30:27.520 top so-called top surgery. It sounds like a nothing top. They mean double mastectomy. Well,

01:30:31.660 you'll, you'll have tubes coming out of you. I mean, they're going to chop off your breasts. And

01:30:35.320 this is something that now girls as young as 10 who are developing breasts want done to them.

01:30:41.140 Um, it's happening with the very young teenage girls in our country. And she just talks about

01:30:45.620 what, what, what should you do? And she, you got to read the book, but basically she says, you know,

01:30:49.420 like get your kid off, off the internet for like a year. I mean, if this happened to my family,

01:30:53.460 we'd be going to Europe without any devices for a year with our family, we'd be certainly going to

01:30:58.720 church every weekend. And she wouldn't be having any contact with people who are pushing this stuff

01:31:02.540 on her. None. Uh, so there are things you can do other than take them to some gender affirming

01:31:07.840 therapist. Who's not on your team. Who's on the team of some weird social agenda that you probably

01:31:14.320 don't agree with. Um, the darkest part, we talked about Doug's favorite interview. Mine was with,

01:31:20.840 I think Scott Nugent who used to go by Kelly. We saw a clip of him in the, in the beginning of that

01:31:26.680 one last mashup and Scott lived his life as a woman and then was a woman is a biological woman

01:31:34.920 and then transitioned to male and is deeply regretful about what he's done to his body with

01:31:43.960 all the affirming care he received. And then she, I don't know what his pronouns are now

01:31:49.960 and, uh, very gripping stuff. Here's just a sound, a soundbite, a sample from Scott on what,

01:31:55.480 what happens to children when they go the surgical route.

01:31:59.480 For the first time in history, a marginalized group has a huge dollar sign on the top of their head.

01:32:08.060 We have five children's hospitals in the United States. Promoting that

01:32:15.660 that's a phalloplasty. That's a bottom surgery. We have five children's hospitals in the United States

01:32:26.440 telling girls that they can be boys at $70,000 a pop in a surgery that has a 67%

01:32:37.120 complication rate that will kill me from infection that I can't sue on butchering a generation of

01:32:46.460 children because nobody's willing to talk about anything. I have three kids

01:32:51.500 at the age that they're doing this to kids.

01:32:58.100 I'm not transphobic. I love my kids and I love other people's kids and you should too.

01:33:04.520 You know, this is wrong on so many levels.

01:33:12.360 Hmm. Oh, Matt, I'll give you the last word on why people need to watch this film.

01:33:17.420 Well, one thing about that, that interview is a remarkable contrast, uh, between the so-called

01:33:23.440 experts that I talked to who are evasive and defensive and didn't want to talk about anything.

01:33:27.020 And you talk to somebody like Scott Nugent who raw and honest and willing to answer any question

01:33:32.320 with nothing to hide whatsoever. Um, and that's, uh, that's one thing I want you to take. I hope

01:33:38.300 people take away from the film is like, which, which side here is willing to actually talk about

01:33:42.700 this in the first place. And I think that kind of tells you everything you need to know. And I also

01:33:46.180 want people to see, as you said, there are a lot of, there are parts that, that are, are funny,

01:33:50.840 um, because of the absurdity of this, but there is a, there's a real darkness underneath all of it.

01:33:56.000 And so I want people to realize and have the same realization that I had filming it, which is that,

01:34:01.180 um, this is not just some sideshow. This is not something that is, you find only with the weirdos

01:34:06.840 on Tik TOK. This is all over the place. It's everywhere. It's infested every part of our

01:34:11.620 society and it's doing real harm. It's a people adults and, and especially children. Um, and I

01:34:18.380 hope people see that and, and, uh, realize that watching the film. Well done, Matt Walsh. Well

01:34:23.980 done daily wire. What is a woman.com to find it. We'll talk more. Thank you so much for listening.

01:34:30.680 Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

The Megyn Kelly Show - June 02, 2022

Justice For Johnny Depp, and What is a Woman, with Matt Walsh and Mark Geragos ｜ Ep. 334

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